Talk:Matrix of Leadership

2012-10-08T05:55:58Z

124.248.211.78: /* Sac longchamp pas cher */ new section

*wide eyed*
I thought the Matrix contained the accumulated wisdom of the ages?

In the cartoons, yes. In the comics, however, it contained the essence of Primus, and as such was what allowed Prime to give life to new Transformers/destroy Unicron with it.

The Matrix of Leadership accumulated the Wisdom of the Ages by being a portal to the Allspark. When a Transformer is alive, it grows in knowledge, and when it dies, its Spark returns to the Allspark and adds its experience to the whole. --ItsWalky

So... how exactly dids it 'use up' the wisdom of the ages in Return of Optimus Priem then?
...and for that matter, how the hell did they recharge it with a nuclear power plant? ;-)

The Matrix serves many different purposes. It's a Tchotke of Ultimate Power, or - literally - a Deus-Ex-Machina.

I think it's referred to as The PowerPack in the Japanese continuity, and at this is the simplest example of it's functionality - a large battery.

It is also the Prime Matrix. It essentially contains Primus's "blueprints" for the Transformer race, which are continually reinterpreted by Vector Sigma, in association with the knowledge and sparks of those Transformers who have returned to the Allspark. (I suspect that this is why Vector Sigma occasionally requires that the Matrix be brought to it - so that it can be updated)

It is also these days, most likely home to the Creation Matrix, a program which was at one point resident in Optimus Prime (and Buster Witwicky's) head.

It is sometimes referred to as The Autobot Matrix of Leadership, though it seems like this is a mostly ceremonial thing - It is possible to lead the Autobots without it, but it's usually placed in possession of the leader for safekeeping.

Finally, it is - or has evolved into, at least in some continuities, an entity in it's own right
--ttk

== Japanese Matrix confusion. ==

-BW2 and Neo's Matrices are NOT the Matrix of Leadership. They are seperate, OTHER Matrixes. They should be listed on a pages about Matrixes, not on the MoL page, which has a rich and stories history without involving the other things.

-FIRE CONVOY DID NOT HAVE A MATRIX. yes, I know his toy was designed with one? It's his Power Filter. The producers of the CR series didnt' want to deal with matrix-shit, so they made it his Power Filter. That's why he plugs an energy cable right into it one episode while recharging.

Rid DUBBED that power filter back into beign the Matrix of Leadership. Yes, it's stupid and complicated, but that's hwo it is. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to note this. I just remembered I'd deleted this crap once before for the same reason. X-Bob, seriously, learn to spell and stop spamming this wiki with the same stuff over and over -- or otherwise manage to be useful somehow -- or you're going bye-bye. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The Spelling complaint I can understand, but spamming? [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 12:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Perhaps I'm Wrong, but this is what I've been Told many a time by several different sources. When they were producing BWII (or perhaps when they were producing Neo--who the hell knows anymore) the Japanese Continuity Guys decided that at some point after G1, under unknown circumstances, the Matrix of Leadership was fragmented or split up and a fragment was given to each member of the Convoy Council (or only the best members, or something like that.) This is why LioConvoy and Big Convoy have Matrixes, even though they probably couldn't be 'technically' called the Matrix of Leadership, it's definitely supposed to be a fragment of it. But Anyway. Fire Convoy would also, in theory, have this in his chest (Although Fire Convoy, and indeed most of the RID-related cast, has a questionable existance 'in' the original continuity, but for the moment we'll assume that they do exist). So he plugs a cable into it in one ep. That doesn't mean much--Big Convoy used to hook his Matrix up to the Big Cannon. But yeah. Those three are definitely shards of the Matrix of Leadership. Now, whether this is worth actually mentioning or not, that's up to you. >.> [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I wanna write an article for the Beast Wars II and Neo versions of the Matrix, but you guys don't want it on this page. So what should I name it, then? They are Matrices of Leadership, just not THE Matrix of Leadership. So what would be a good name to use "Matrix of Leadership (BW)"? No?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:I don't... THINK they had names. I think an article called 'Lioconvoy's Matrix' would be fine. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

But should I make seperate articles for Big Convoy's Matrix and Optimus Primal's/Beast Convoy's Matrix? Or should I just bunch em all under Lioconvoy's Matrix?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

*Alright, I went ahead and wrote an article under [[Leadership Matrix]], as that seemed to work well-enough. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

===Fire Convoy===

While I see here - and have seen it said elsewhere (mostly by Derik!) - that Fire Convoy did not have a Matrix in ''Car Robots'', I've also heard other people say that he DID, and that God Magnus had his own, and wanted to take Fire Convoy's for himself to increase his own power. It was the overspill of power which resulted from this, so I've heard, that was responsible for the powering-up of the Car Brothers. Anyone know wot's wot? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:At the moment, I'm not sure about God Magnus having a Matrix of his own, but I have some proof that Fire Convoy himself DID possess a Matrix.

:[http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/Prime-Schematic01a.jpg Here]

:This is a scan from a Car Robots guidebook I got at BotCon. The arrow pointing to where Fire Convoy's flip-up Matrix panel on the toy says (roughly):

:"Energon Matrix. Computer that stores fight data. Proof of his position as Leader."

:Incidentally, that other thing in his torso is his Spark (which is indicated by a text box on the page below).

:So, there you go. Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix. I'll check the rest of my books later to see if there's anything about Lio Convoy or Big Convoy's matrices. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 06:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bbe3540aff261785 Doug E. Fresh speaketh]
::I'm tired of relying on source books. Clearly, at one point it was goign to be a Matrix, but then they changed their minds (or vice versa.) Which was it in the '''finished episodes''' in Japan?
::(Takara considers CR and RiD the same series, so just callign ti a Matrix isnt' awful, but I'd reallyprefer we get our facts straight.)-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:The online TV Tokyo episode summaries for Car Robots episodes 24 and 25 speak of how God Magnus "aims for Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix". [http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/carobot/koremade.html Here.]

:I've found nothing in my books or on Japanese websites that suggests that God Magnus had his own Energon Matrix, but simply that he was after Fire Convoy's, and that trying to take it was what triggered their fusion into God Fire Convoy.

:As for the Cybertronia Engine, perhaps that was an early idea that was dropped, or a misinterpretation? Maybe if we could find the original page..

:As for other Matrices, here's some data on [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/LioConvoy-Data01a.jpg Lio Convoy].

:According to that page, Lio Convoy ALSO has an Energon Matrix (it's the thing under the panel on his chest). Roughly, the text says: "Energon Matrix. An energy box which only Cybertron leaders possess. Maximum output of 105 00000 horsepower."

:That it's called an Energon Matrix is backed up by the Robot Masters toy's bio. I've yet to find a name for Big Convoy's Matrix, alas. Maybe it's also an Energon Matrix.

::Well... boo. Since Fire Convoy plugged his repowering hose into the 'matrix' in one episode of CR, I assumed the Power Converter version was what was in play for the cartoon.
::I guess I have to remember, this is Japan, the country that decided you could recharge the wisdom of the ages by hooking the matrix up to a nuclear power plant. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:::See, I was thinking that the little socket-thingie wasn't his Matrix, but that he had his Matrix stored somewhere else in his body, like, behind the windows of his small bot mode, as usual. I mean, Magnus's attempt to take it didn't involve going for that socket in any way, and heck, in Omega Prime mode, the piece containing that socket isn't even involved. Christ, RiD took all this and made it SO MUCH more sensible. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::::This is probobly his spark, but It could be a Matrix
http://www.dvandom.com/bb00/5fire.GIF

:(EDIT: Not RM Lio Convoy's bio, his [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/RMLioConvoy-Instructs.jpg instructions]. My bad.)

:For an unexpected twist, check out this [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/BW2Galvatron-Data01a.jpg Galvatron] page. Item 10 is... the "Galva-Matrix"! That marble-thingie on his chest. My translator had trouble with this one, unfortunately. "Galva-Matrix. In life, a Spark-protecting crystal sphere. (Something about the future), it will carry a mysterious power."

:I'd guess that the Galva-Matrix isn't a "true" Matrix, but just something done to emphasize Galvatron as Lio Convoy's counterpart. Still, may be worth a footnote --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 09:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
::IIRC, the Galva-Matrix is a supercomputer from Gaea that Galvatron stuck in his chest... or something. It is not a trtue Matrix, but he calsl it that. (And I don't know enough about BW2 to know whether or nto it ha any affinity for Amogolis or not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

== Dreamwave Continuity ==
*I've added more info, but this probably needs more fleshing out. And if someone could find a better picture, preferably of the matrix visible through Optimus's damaged chestplate, that'd be grand. [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 15:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

==Amalgamation and sources==
I haven't looked at this article in a little while, but I have some concerns with its current state. The introduction is concise, but combines several ideas about the Matrix into a single story which could mislead readers who don't realize that it is an amalgamation of many different ideas. Later in the article this becomes more clear, but the introduction needs some sort of a statement that it is making a meta-continuity/retcon-rich summary.

Additionally, I am not familiar with the factoid given in the G1 section about Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer. On what is that statement based? Does it even apply to the cartoon universe?

Both of these concerns are basically the same thing: the article needs to be precise and forthcoming about where its information comes from, and how broadly applicable that information is.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer 'may' be based on something Alpha Trion said at some point--or it *could* be taken from one of those third season eps where Roddy goes into the Matrix to seek the wisdom of the dead guys. But probably Trion. [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the BM entry should be 'see: allspark.' The Allspark may be caleld the Matrix, but it's not the Matrix of Leadership, which refers to the physical housing-- the artifact itself.
Or was there soem dumbass explicit statement the MOL was the Allspark I blocked otu from BM? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

== How do we handle this ?==

This page was a horrible mush of different objects from different continuities and fannon relating them. I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix and the others, but now I see that the CM page just redirects here. How do we fix that. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 02:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:With a Diagram, and little lines pointing to its parts? "Matrix of Leadership A.K.A. the Matrix Holder" "Crystal, contains Wisdom of the Ages A.k.a. the severed power of Primus, and the Creation Matrix program." "Also contaisn a direct access tot he Allspark Dimension."
:I think that breaking down by continuity is... rather a bad idea, actually, since in most modern meta-continuities, the Matrix will probably contain almost all of its aspects, even if they're not explicitly stated. You'd be better off with notes at the beginning of each fiction section noting that the MOL's aspects are limited ot X in this continuity.
: Here's something to ask- is the MoL related to the Matrix in Armada? I mean related in the same sense that the Unicrons are? What about the Mini-cons having their own allspark dimensiona in Linkage, and their own Matrix (apparently not really related to the full-sized TF's) in the Armada comic? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: Yeah, Originally I changed it mainly because I saw on Disambig. page that each variation on the Matrix seemes to already have its own page, wich seemed to suggest that this page should be only for the ACTUAL MoL from the cartoon. The problem is that really despite being based on the same McGuffin from the movie the MoL and the Creation Matrix are VERY different things really. Then you add in the later Matricies (what's the plural again?) whose natures are really vague (though most seem Primus-centric, as opposed to the MoL) and it's a big jumble of different objects that the article was trying to fannon together into one thing.

::Even if we do want to go for a joint page on all things Matrix, which may indeed be the best way, this needed editing, since if was a-mush with fannon. I also think if it's going to be universal, this article kinda belongs under the title "Autobot Matrix" since that's an appropriate title to refer to all the subjects contained therin, rather than nameing it after something that's only a small fraction of it's subject? Agree/disagree? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Disagree. The Matrix of Leadership, though traditionally held by an Autobot and thus signifying leadership, is not inherently Autobot.
:::If we're really lookign to un-muddy the waters, try tracking down the second-most-common name for the Creation Matrix (did we ever get an explicit statement that the Primordial Program was the CM?) and refer to it as that, at least ont his page. It's '''cheating''', but the resulting article would be much, much clearer.
::: (Half the mess seems to stem from the Autobots own tendency to refer tot he creation program and the object interchangably.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::What's the basis for putting different Matrices in one article? Shouldn't the G1 Cartoon, RiD, Beast Wars, and Armada Matracies, and the Creation Matrix have seperate pages? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: My first instinct was seperate pages as well, at least for the MoL and the CM since they're such different things. I think Derik's argument is that in later continuities that looked to toon and comic for inspiration, say Dreamwave-on, Matrixi (need plural... too lazy to look it up...) have been protrayed as a bit like both, making which page to put them on a bit more questionable.

:::: How much of that is really that true though? As far as I can think of off the top of my head, all new modern Matrixicies have kinda mostlyfunctioned on the Primus/Creation Matrix template, yes? I think the only real question might be where to place the original Japanese incarnation, where it was more a powersource, and vector sigma remote control than anything else, but I guess that's go best in with the other Japanese Leadership Matrixes, yes/no? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix"
: Not in recent years, in which they're treated as the same object. For example, Primeval Dawn even refers to the Matrix of Leadership within Optimus Prime's chest as "that which gives life," which is the only way the two differ. They're both the only thing that Unicron fears, they both can grant life, and they're both kept in the same container. Much of what was on this page and considered fanon was actually real information from fictions you simply didn't remember. That's sort of why I made sure to create this page in the first place, 'cuz I was keeping track of it all, and wanted to make sure all the various connections were recorded. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: So then, because of the relative obscurity and intermingles nature of the sources here- this reallly is an article in need of some major footnoting.
:: (I'm ust goign to throw out that the awful Transformers Takai game specifically refers to the Matrix's power as comign from the crystal, not the housig, and says that it contains the collective wisdom of all Autobots who ever fought for Justice- a clear backing off of the 'only autobot leaders' thing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: The original article did clearly need footnotes. It was one of the first few things I put on this wiki, back before sources were invented by Al Gore. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: Also, sadly, I am out of town and don't have access to my Ultimate Guide, Dreamwave material, and Universe stuffs, so I can't reconstruct this article for a while yet. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: No problem. Since the concensus is one article for all Matricies I've reinstated the previous version. But, I've changed it to fit the established form somewhat beter (continuity neutral opening and all) and to remove some of the worst continuity mushing. Better? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

::::: Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle Beast Wars' use of the Matrix of Leadership as Optimus Prime's spark, while Primal carried it for a while? It needs to be addressed, and I recall someone mentioning that Foreward and DiTillo made the Matrix a Spark on accident. [[User:Mirai Gen|Mirai Gen]] 08:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::: That's already been addressed a few times on this wiki. Try the page for [[Authorial intent|author intent]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]]. --[[User:67.188.23.44|67.188.23.44]] 16:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
::::::: I copied the Primeval Dawn section from the Optimus Prime article and put it in this article. That's relevant, yes? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

We need to make a decision about this article and the Creation Matrix article. I would favor combining the two, probably under the Creation Matrix article. Otherwise, we need to find a separate home for the Dreamwave/UT stuff, as it doesn't fit here any better than it fits under Creation Matrix if we're treating them as totally separate entities. We also need to sort out the Energon Matrixes info from here, and what's on the Energon Matrix page; given that there's more than one Energon Matrix in the Beast Era, I think that at least should be a separate article with links from here. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 21:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
: As far as I'm concerned, Creation Matrix is just another/early name for the Matrix of Leadership. They're the same object and they do the same things. The Dreamwave material blurred the waters even more between the two, connecting it, the Allspark, and Vector Sigma, just as, well, the original article stated. [[Creation Matrix]] should redirect to the Marvel Comics section of the [[Matrix of Leadership]] article. --Walky
::I consider Creation Matrix to be the more fundamental entity, and would prefer for the merged article to reside there. As far as I recall, neither name has been used in more than one continuity. Usually it's just plain old "the Matrix". (I would also accept the merged article residing under a generic name like that.) However, as more stories have given more and more information about the various Matrices, they have been converging towards something more like the CM than the MoL. The MoL has -- as far we know -- nothing to do with life, the universe, and everything. The CM on the other hand does. And so do all subsequent Matrices. The MoL is an aberration among (American, at least) Transformer Matrices for being nothing but a hand-me-down which happens to contain stored memories and can for some reason beat Unicron, who we know basically nothing about if you restrict yourself to just the MoL's continuity. The G1 toon has no Primus, no sparks, no Allspark. Those things are fundamental to the contemporary idea of the Matrix. The CM started out as just being a computer program, but by the end of the Marvel comics run it was the essence of Primus, just like our modern idea of what the Matrix is. So... yeah. CM>MoL. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:: It was also called the Matrix of Leadership in Dreamwave continuity (just checked) and in the Unicron Trilogy (from memory, admittedly). The Matrix of Leadership these days is basically the Creation Matrix in practice but called "the Matrix of Leadership." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

== Great Matrix ==

In the fifth issue of the Marvel TF comic, Megatron swore by something called "the Great Matrix". Could this be another name for the Creation Matrix?
: The Matrix has about 30 different casual nicknames in the Marvel Comics, so yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== UT Matrix ==

Is the UT Matrix... the Matrix of Leadership?

Why is it in this article? The Mini-con Matrix (for instance) isn't. -Derik20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
: It's called the Matrix of Leadership a few times in the Armada cartoon, I believe. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

::Oh please, it's not like names in the Armada dub can be relies on. Let's put it in a new article called 'Matrix of the Commander!'
::And you seem to be missing my point- why is the Matrix considered 'the same thing' across continuity families? The only other two articles (AFAIK) that span multiple continuity families are Primus and Unicron.
::It jsut seems kinda wierd for the Matrix to look the same and be the same thing for 85% of the article- and then suddenly we've got the RiD and UT Matrixes thrown in. "One is square and has a sword inside and the other is art-deco ane never gets mentioned when Unicron shows up, but they have the same name so I guess they go in this article!"
::Basically I'm suggesting making this article Matrix of Leadership (G1) -Derik21:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:::They called it various things. The Matrix of the Commander, the Transformer Matrix, and simply 'the Matrix'. I don't believe Energon referred to the Matrix at all, even though that thing on his chest was supposed to the be the Matrix for some reason. In Cybertron they occassionally called it the Matrix of Leadership. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:::: It's not just Unicron and Primus. [[Cybertron (planet)]] spans multiple continuity families, too. I'd be inclined towards keeping just a single Matrix of Leadership article. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 21:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

==Matrix Destroyed in Marvel US #75?==
Do we really know that the Matrix was destroyed when Prime used it to destroy Unicron in US issue #75? I mean, it certainly seems likely, but the uses of it in G2, although looking physically different (no surprise there) seem to refer to a physical object rather than just "Matrix energy" as the article suggests.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 21:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

:In G2, the first time we "see" the Matrix is when Megatron lays the smack down on Prime at the end of #6. He rips Prime's windows off, then asks Soundwave for a "siphon," which he clamps onto Prime's exposed chest (where, incidentally, we see no classic Matrix-container in its detailing). The siphon drains Prime's Matrix energy, and THAT becomes the new physical Matrix. Later, Starscream absorbs the energy and merges with the WarWorld, but he eventually gives the Matrix back to Prime in the form of a reconstituted container that looks like the classic one. Which the Swarm promptly eats, so whatever.
:Point being: While it's ''possible'' that the physical Matrix survived off-camera, there's no evidence of that, and the evidence that ''does'' exist suggests otherwise.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

::''Maybe'', I say ''maybe'' because there is nothing officially stated, the matrix probably destroyed in US issue #75 along with the explosion. But somehow it might be restored into Optimus Prime's new body by The Last Autobot, thus we can see the matrix through out the G2 comics. Well, just guess, 'cauz who the hell really KNOW? Errrr... --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 03:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
:::We cannot see the matrix throughout the G2 comics. As stated above, the matrix energy wasn't in any specific container until Megatron sucked it out and ''put it in one''. I've just recently re-read my Titan copies of the books, and Jackpot has the right of things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 03:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

::Jackpot, I certainly don't dispute the facts as you lay them out. However, the siphon could just as easily be interpreted as taking out the energy ''from'' a "physical" matrix (not visibly exposed in the picture does not equal not present). Not to say this is likely, even. But I think the data is sparse enough to be open to interpretation, and to come out and ''state'' that the matrix is destroyed in US #75 smacks to me of fanon.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 00:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
:::The "siphon" thing was explained as an artist error in a later issue's letters page. Even within the fiction proper, Manny Galan draws a (poorly drawn) Matrix being kept on the Warworld just before Starscream steals it. His inner monologue reads: "The Matrix! How IRONIC. When Megatron '''tore it from Prime's chest cavity'''..." (Emphasis mine.) Galan continues to draw that same poorly-drawn Matrix floating inside Matrix-powered Starscream's chest, but in Geoff Senior's interpretation of that same scene, it's a more traditional-looking Matrix. (I wish I had my original issues at hand so I could find the letters page that dealt with this...) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
::::Aha. [http://tfarchive.com/comics/marvel/?s=g2_us_07_12 TFarchive.com] notes that in issue 8's letters page, Prime's Matrix is stated to have been rebuilt along with the rest of him at the end of G1. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::Ahhhh, yes. Good enough, then. Carry on.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

== MacGufffin Cat? ==

The MoL is currently in the MacGuffin cat. I don't think it belong there since it plays a very real can central role in the TF mythos. (Conversely the Allspark in the 2007 movie ''does'' because while it fills the same rule as far as the movie is concerned it's just an object both sides are chasing after, a classic MacGuffin.)

Do we have a 'Deus Ex' category? Or are we making the MacGuffin Category MacGuffins & Deus Ex's? (Both are Plot Devices, an overarching definition that encompasses both functions.)

I have no problem with the MacGuffin category also containing Deus Ex's (people confuse and conflate the two all the time) but the category description should probably say so. Was this already discussed and I missed it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
:The Matrix was DEFINITELY a MacGuffin in the original animated movie. Its only reason for being was to provide a poorly-explained object for both sides to fight over, and to kill Unicron at the end. It's been explained better since, but that doesn't negate the original MacGuffinness. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
:So it's both a MacGuffin ''and'' a Deus Ex. I'm down with that. Do we (or should we) have a cat for Deus Ex's? (There's enough of them!) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

==Talk:AllSpark dagger==
=== Sysop action requested ===

I'm requesting that this page be protected from being '''moved''' by anyone but a sysop.

The '''name''' of the sharp pointy artifact contains spoilers, so I'm creating it here. It is described as a "dagger" in the Junior Novelization, and EVERYTHING ancient is connected to the AllSpark, so "AllSpark dagger" is both an accurate vaguely-official description, and a non-spoilery way to refer to it until the movie actually premieres. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:46, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
:Done! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:57, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
::I'm gonna see if I can set up a redirect at its spoilery-name ''without'' accidentally spoiling everyone reading RecentChanges... maybe we
can nip that in the bud too.
::(This will require experimentation.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:08, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
I am requesting that a sysop who is '''willing to spoil themselves''' full-protect these two redirect pages:
* Matrix of Leadership (Movie)
* Talk:Matrix of Leadership (Movie)
CSS obscuring their titles in recentChanges has been in place since last night, which should ''hopefully'' means that everyone has it in their cache by now. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:49, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:What about Matrix of Leadership (ROTF)? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:29, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

Request filled. It'll require sysops to do anything to them, so holler when you need us.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:24, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

Derik, didn't work for me. Here's a screenshot of the Recentchanges page, with a screengrab of the CSS associated with the page according to Web Developer: [[:Image:RCIncludesROTFSpoilers.png]] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:43, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:Maaan! Creation, fine. Deletion, fine. But protect-log nexts the links inside another <nowiki></nowiki> which screws up the CSS... :(
:The one thing I ''couldn't'' test on my own. :p Well, it's fixed now.
:I also threw in CSS protection for Starfield's suggestion, if we want to create those redirects, they will be blacked out on RecentChanges.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:19, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

===Vat es dis?===
:::I thought our OMG SPOILERZ paranoia would not get in the way of ''conveying information'', which is the point of this goddamn site? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:42, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
::::If this was a comic book, we'd document it the day it came out. But these are spoilers for the movie-- which is more than a month off yet-- coming out of the things like ''novel adaptions''. The novels are out-- but they spoil something that is ''not'' out.
::::It's an "asynchronous spoilers" situation that only occurs around movies. We could could refuse to document ''anything'' until the movie is out-- but that just means we're ''going to be'' spoiled by some asshole creating an article, as well as creating a mess and making it hard to link stuff in the comic adaption articles. Now we have a spoiler-neutral article we can link to and move when the movie is released. This article is locked against moving to prevent all the recentChanges spoilering around Blackarachnia/Elita 1 and Longarm/Shockwave. I'm gonna try to set up a redirect without spoiling ppl too, and then ''that'' can be locked to prevent article-creation spoiling.
::::This all seems consistent with how TFWiki wants to handle spoilers, especially the asynchronous type. There's nothing in this article that's misleading... even the ''terminology'' is lifted directly from the books published, it's just kept deliberately vague.
::::(If the community disagrees we can change this, it just seemed like the correct course of action here, stemming from how we handle stuff.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:22, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::PS: I found the overreaction over the Elita-1 and Longarm spoilers to be immensely dumb. "Elita-1" is a name. It did not actually say us anything we didn't know. Longarm's true identity was revealed in the very same episode he was introduced in. Those who went to the article of Longarm, a character who did not exist before that episode, were not particularly interested in protecting themselves from spoilers. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 09:36, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
Okay, Derik. Is this spoilery information ''in media that is currently released''? If so, our spoiler policy should be clear.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm confused. Are we ''guessing'' that this thing is related to the AllSpark? Also, when was this mentioned "in passing" the Sector Seven ARG? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:49, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
:OMGSPOILERZ - It's the movie Matrix of Leadership - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:02, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

::Is.. there an answer to my question under there? I mean, the article reads: "Ooh-- I bet it's connected to the AllSpark, we could call it the Allspark dagger!" So.... are we just assuming a connection to the AllSpark and thus ''making up'' the name "AllSpark dagger," or what? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 18:08, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

:Yes, all the info here comes from stuff that's been released.
:It's being kept deliberately vague because, well... it's ''inherently'' spoiler-y. And (AFAIK) it's one of the spoilery bits that hasn't been widely spoiled yet.
:Also yes on the AllSpark thing. There is an explicit connection. (similar to that between Vector Sigma and the key to Vector Sigma... but not 100% analogous.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:09, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

So what I'm getting here is that this is something from, like, the novelization of the film, right? And putting it up spoils the arse clean off the film. I'd really like it, personally, if we could just... like... ''not'' put up stuff from the novelization or the comic adaptation until the film is out. So... you know... we don't ruin the movie for the large number of people who won't be reading either of those things (read: I'm not, and I'd like to be able to ''come'' to the wiki between now and the end of June). Derik, I'm assuming you're in general agreement on the basis that you've taken this approach with this article? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:16, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

:Yes. I think that if we do NOT have an article, it will just be created by some thoughtless soul, spoiling everyone. Having a clear placeholder that really gives nothing away that wasn't obvious in the trailer "Gee, that looks like an ancient Transformer artifact" will ''hopefully'' act as a buffer against this.
:I know it won't work, I know everyone is goign to be spoiled ''somehow'', but I'd like to ''try'' damnit. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:25, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
::I am amused by the idea that those who spoil are "thoughtless", while those who withhold the information from people who ''want to know'' (which is why... people go to Wikis in the first place) are somehow better. The point of a wiki is to convey information, and this article is a failure on all levels in conveying the information it's supposed to. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:36, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm torn in the same way. But if 'supplying info to those who want it' was our primary imperative, we wouldn't have a ban on info from stolen prototypes and leaked episodes. I don't particularly ''care''-- I spoiled myself already, I'm just implementing what seems like the best solution I can think of, given TFWiki's existing conventions and policies. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 18:47, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Stolen prototypes are one thing, since details can change at a moment's notice (remember tan-nose Cyclonus?). They're not the final product. I didn't ''agree'' with banning information from the "leaked" episodes, but didn't bother speaking up because I knew nobody would agree with me. Both cases aren't official releases (well, I don't personally believe the leaked episodes fall under this, but I digress), while the novelization is. If it's something you can get in a store now, it should be fair game. If spoiling people is such a concern, then perhaps we can set up a system similar to marking minor edits. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 09:25, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Interrobang: I think the problem is that... the movie is kind of the definitive release, as it were. So while stuff like the novel/comic is technically an official source, we still might want to hold off (or at least heavily spoiler warn) until the definitive release comes out, since the chances are high that most people (including us editors) are going to wait until we can first experience the story via the movie. (Since the comic and novel are technically secondary adaptations anyway, rather than intended to be the primary release format for the story.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:30, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

''*facepalm*''

Why am I mucking about with CSS to hide it? I'll just have Deceptitran make the redirect. HIS edits are hidden by default. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
:Since when does Deceptitran have delete permissions, BTW? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:46, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
:(over an hour after I tried to send this, since the wiki went down. Again.) Also - you do realise that the protect log DOES show up on Recentchanges, if you want to lock the redirect, right? [Why aren't they hideable anyway, the way bots or minor edits are? Always bugged me, since a load of deletions/protections/uploads in one go can "spam" RC.].
:And you messed up the disambig - even if the ARG is enough to give it a movie 1 disambig rather than (ROTF) [which I'm sceptical about], it should be (Movie) not (movie), yes? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:17, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

Would it be a good idea for the page to be locked from any sort of editing until after the film's been released? Just a suggestion. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 20:21, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm with Interrobang. This article is pretty much disinformation. "This article is about a character or concept that lacks a name." Bullcrap. Having intrusive spoilers on existing character pages... I can see how ''maybe'' the spoiler tag isn't good enough. But if there are new characters in the comic or novel, can we create a page for them? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:58, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:''"This article is about a character or concept that lacks a name." Bullcrap.''
:Perhaps we should use the "coming soon" template instead, then? "More material/revisions to be posted as soon as it's the right time," in effect.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:06, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yea, that's a better approach. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:50, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

Guys? Move page plz. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:47, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:I ''think'' we're waiting until Friday, when the mvoie premieres in the last major english-speaking markets. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:02, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
::I would make the argument that people who do not want spoilers should know better than to look up a Wiki, but I think we're going around in circles. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:05, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

:::hey, ''I'' don't have any strong feelings on the matter. I'm not opposing a move.
:::I'm just telling you why I ''think'' it's not already been done. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:08, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Ok, it's called the Matrix...and its in an article called Allspark Dagger. Can we just bow to logic and either movie it to the matirx article or rename it. The term Allspark dagger isn't even mentioned on the damn page!!!!! [[User:Eire|Eire]] 21.35 25 June 09 (UTC)

=== Category: Religion ===

It's a key to an Energon collecting machine. I don't think it belongs in the Religion category. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:08, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:It's the subject of centuries of Cybertronian myth and mysticism. How is it ''not'' a religious artifact?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:32, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
::Not really. It is a key that is only entrusted to the leader of the Primes because it is used to activate a powerful machine capable of killing off a star system. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:55, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's like saying that the Creation Matrix is just a means of bringing new Transformers online.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:17, 26 June 2009 (EDT)

=== Matrix of Leadership ===

OK, am I just being dense here? Wasn't this object called the [[Matrix of Leadership]] in the movie? If so, shouldn't this be a section in THAT article? If it was called something else in another media but it was describing the same thing, that should probably be a redirect, no? and if AllSpark Dagger was a fan-concocted title, then we wouldn't even need that, no? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:05, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
: Yeah, it should. Our [[Matrix of Leadership]] page is currently crosscontinuity. So... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:06, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
::Alright, is there any discussion on this page that would need to be moved over there, or can this talkpage be nuked?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:31, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Maybe religion?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 21:12, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Likely not. There can't really be any arguing on whether a cross-continuity Matrix article belongs in that category.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:16, 26 June 2009 (EDT)

I feel it worth noting that (owing to its role in the film) the fanon term "Matrix of Blowing Up the Goddamn [[Sun]]" has been suggested for the RotF artifact, by one film review that is currently being pasted in a lot of different sites. [[User:Banpei the Mini-Con|Banpei the Mini-Con]] 21:10, 5 November 2009 (EST)
:That ''is'' more descriptive. But alas, "Matrix of Leadership" is canon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:16, 5 November 2009 (EST)

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Talk:Matrix of Leadership