MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Camaro

2009-09-23T22:52:33Z

142.240.200.10:

{{factions|malignus}}
{{disambig2|the Malignus robot|the real-world car model|General Motors}}
:''Camaro is a [[Malignus]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Camaro-Purple.jpg|right|214px|thumb|No, not [[Bumblebee (Movie)|that one]].]]
'''Camaro''' is a member of the evil [[Malignus]], who are opposed by the heroic [[Optimus (faction)|Optimus]] robots.

{{note|The toys from the Brazilian sub-series commonly referred to as "Optimus x Malignus" do not have bios, but share the same names and molds as previous (factionless) Brazilian releases which in turn had the same bios as their [[Hasbro]] counterparts, only in Portuguese. As such, it's '''possible''' that Camaro is basically "evil [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]]". This also raises the possibility that the "good/evil" designations are retroactive for the Brazilian toys....}}

==Fiction==
===''TransTech''===
{{storylink|Gone Too Far}} {{storylink|Withered Hope}}

{{charstubfiction}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Camaro''' (Mini Vehicle, 1985 - 1987)

: A [[redeco]] of the [[Mini Vehicle]] [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]], Camaro transforms into a Pontiac Firebird Trans Am (which begs the question of what's up with his name). He was released only in Brazil by [[Estrela]], and was available in four different color schemes: Original [[Micro Change|Microchange]] colors and white hull with grey body in 1985, and then again in 1987 in metal-flake blue with pale yellow, and dark purple with lavender robot parts. While both releases were Autobots in 1985 (but without any Autobot markings), he became part of the new "Malignus" faction in 1987 and received a "Malignus" sigil decal in robot mode.

: All of the "Optimus/Malignus" Mini Vehicle releases are considered fairly rare, and go for a fairly high price on the secondary market, particularly the secondary color schemes; in this instance, the purple/lavender Camaro goes for more than the blue/gray.

: This mold was also [[Retool|retooled]] to make [[Rook (Universe)|Rook]] and [[Tailgate]].

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1985/Autobot/Camaro/camaro.htm Camaro] at TFU.info
*[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Brazilian/MiniCars.html Brazilian Mini Vehicles at the Super Toy Archive]

[[Category:Mini Vehicles]]
[[Category:South American-original characters]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]
[[Category:TransTech characters]]

Talk:Mudflap (ROTF)

2009-09-23T22:49:58Z

142.240.200.10:

Okay, I apologize for starting to get a bit edit war about this. Some people consider the twins racist caricatures. Others disagree. I really don't think this wiki should be dismissive of either side of the argument. I think noting the controversy without comment is fine. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:57, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
:I agree. I'm not sure if I find the twins racist caricatures (caricatures for sure, racist not for sure), but I find the dismissive behaviour to the accusations disturbing. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
::I dunno, I remember the exact same accusations with Jazz back in '07. Because he talked all ghetto, everyone thought he was black. Or blacker. Or making fun of black(er) people. That was because back in '84, Jazz was all up on Rock, and back then, rock was "rotting our brains". They just gave him ghetto as an update. It's like the accusations of racism in RE5. Just because a white dude (with a body like a melon on a fridge) was shooting a bunch of black villagers (with the occasional other white guy) who were trying to bloody ''disembowel'' him, everyone was all "[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism Help us, Emperor Jesse Jackson!]"

Face it. Every time something "non-white" pops up, someone will get offended. Remember that South Park episode when they were doing the Christmas thing, and everyone was offended by one, little thing, and the play ended up in them just hopping around to Phillip Glass? What would you rather have? "Get'r Dun!"?[[Special:Contributions/24.89.74.34|24.89.74.34]] 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Sign your posts. Also, you seem not to have a very proper understanding of how racism works these days. It happens more subtle, in ways you can brush off as coincidence or that you can counter with various arguments. That is ignoring the trend beneath. For instance, I don't find RE5 rascist for the killing of infected people coinicidentally native to Africa, but I have a slight problem with the main roles given mostly to the non-black characters while the game is set in Africa. Only Sheva and her boss are black main characters, and Sheva seems to me as a compromise by being much lighter in colour and more shaped to Caucasian beauty standards.

:::Bay has the subtlety of a brick to the face, and I doubt he's capable of recognizing racism if it's not blatant (he's at least incapable of recognizing sexism). Not saying the twins are rascist stereotypes, but they very well could be, even if they aren't meant that way. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:13, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Well if you'd looked at the article, Reno Wilson was told the characters were meant to be "wannabe gangsters", so he and Tom Kenny voiced them as such. He, a black man, is surprised so many people are offended.--[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:19, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Because blacks can't be rascist to blacks, or support rascist views from white people? That's a fallacy. I'd be surprised if most black people would find the twins offensive, but that doesn't mean an underlying wrong idea is not supported by carelessly accepting them. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:35, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Sorry, Geewunling, I tend to grossly oversimplify. You not finding RE5 non-offensive is exactly what I was talking about: Whenever something is question over racial protrayals [sic], it gets divided between "it's bad" and "It's not bad". You never really see the "not bad" side on the news, right? It's usually ten minutes of 'bad" with about forty-five seconds of "not bad". Let me clarify about Jazz, too. People found him offensive not because he was "black", but because he was the only Autobot to die, whereas the others survived, but were admittadly badly hurt. But I concede, because you're a better writer than I am.[[Special:Contributions/24.89.74.34|24.89.74.34]] 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::I think people found Jazz offensive ONLY because of his ONE LINE "what's crackin' little bitches?" and instantly label him as "black", and THEN get offended that he later dies. I realy don't get how people can think that giant fictional robots from space can be rasist.(granted, skids and mudflap were overdoing it, but people would be less ofended if they were humans AND black)--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 14:18, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== Twins article, + stereotyping again ==

1) Is there justification for an article at "Twins" or "The Twins" or "The twins", considering how much the phrase is explicitly used by the characters themselves and in numerous ancillary materials? I'm thinking it might be very short, maybe even no fiction section at all.

2) I'm more and more convinced that the twins are meant to be rural hicks trying to talk ghetto-speak while not having a clue about it. Is it worth noting this somewhere, since a lot of offended viewers seem to be completely missing this point, or is it too much of an opinion, or is it ''still'' OMG OFFENSIVE STEREOTYPE in some way that I'm totally missing? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:24, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:I'm sure I read somewhere that Bay himself stated that they where supposed to be a parody of white kids trying to be black. I too am for that "The Twins" article. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 11:31, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think the material is robust enough to support a multi-layered "supposed to be one group pretending to be another" interpretation. They could be supposed to be Haida Indians acting all ghetto, but with utterly no hint at all about the Haida while all we see and hear front and center is the ghetto. How is that any different from them just being ghetto? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 14:40, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:::I get "inbred hick" from their faces. Their hideous, malformed, asymetrical, bug-eyed, buck-toothed faces. *shudder* -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:05, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:There is a [[twin]] article that is meant to document what it means to be a Transformer twin. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:43, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::That's fine for the generic term, but "the twins" seems to be bandied about a LOT in specific reference to these two, in a way that hasn't been done for any other pair of TFs. (also, I totally failed to find that article, despite suspecting that it existed. We needa "twins" redirect.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 12:34, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:Look at their goddamn vehicle modes. Can you see the Crips or Bloods ridin' dirty in ''those'' things? That's fucking ''white'', man. It's practically translucent. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:59, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:::The same thing could be said about the Pontiac Solstice, though. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:45, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::#Mention that multiple viewers took exception to the precieved portrayal.
::#Find a cits for Bay or Orci intendign them to be wiggas.
::#Point out that in the novelization (and presumably the early script) Skids was intended to have a lisp and not be a banger-- which really helped the duo 'read' as a white boy wannabees. This seems to have drifted in successive revisions so they're both wigga wannabees (Skids is just ''bad'' at it,)-- which opened the opportunity for confusion.
::Acknowledge the issue. Provide counter-statements. Show how the intention, the execution and the perception are 3 sides of the same coin and '''put the matter to rest.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:::*[http://tformers.com/transformers-/11886/news.html Bay talks about how the twins vague characterization was originally vague and evolved during script recordings.]
:::* [http://tformers.com/transformers-/11986/news.html Orci + Kurtzman note that they were surprised how much Skids, specifically, changed from their script to the final film.]
:::*Skids VA is white.
:::So blah blah blah... what I said above. They were supposed to be a ''contrasting'' pair, the voice actors were encouraged to ad-lib, and that... just got changed. The result '''is''' a bit unfortunate (to the point that the scriptwriters admit that it made them uncomfortable) but it wasn't part of a ''conscious decision'' at any point along the way... just dogpile revisions. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:49, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I think what the articles say right now about the controversy is pretty much fine, without much need for change, and certainly shouldn't be changed to any way lecture genuinely offended viewers about they're "missing the point." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:03, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:And, I might add, I think a lot of those offended aren't "missing the point" that the Twins are supposed to "white" guys acting in a manner stereotypically associated with black people, thus the comparisons to blackface and minstrel shows. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:11, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

==Ice Cream Truck Scale==
So there's a bit of a big gay revert war on about the relative size of the ice cream truck. I say we hold off on any explicit statements about the scale until the DVD drops, at which point we can actually use, you know, screencaps and references and shit. Unless, of course, someone knows exactly what model truck it's based on (looks like a 1930s U.S.-made pickup or delivery truck), and then we can conclusively say something. Personally, I think it's a non-issue and the truck is full-sized, because the idea of standing up to sell ice cream out of the back of a goddamned subcompact is ludicrous, but then again, there IS a process for this sort of thing. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:19, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Video link for you to prove (or disprove) the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoIllegalCamVidsAllowed. It just looks small to me. [[User:Crow T. Robot|Crow T. Robot]] 16:47, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
: What does it MATTER what scale it is? We have a [[scale]] article for this sort of thing. Keep this irrelevant, non-noteable nonsense out of the toy section. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
::This is all also ignoring that the Twins themselves are SMALL robots. They only look to be maybe 8 to 9 feet in robot mode. Bumblebee can (and does) pick each one up with one arm and sling them around off their feet with ease. Given the amount of mass that must spontaneously generate from nowhere in order for a fully-functional Topkick or Camaro to turn into hugeass robots like Ironhide and Bumblebee, the idea that two comparative midgets will cram themselves into a smallish van is far from the worst physics issue in the movie series. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:14, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
:I don't suppose [http://conceptartworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/ben_procter_rotf_04.jpg this concept art] by [[Ben Procter]] helps in any way, does it? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:44, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

And where exactly did the twins find and scan a 1930's delivery-turned ice cream van in the first place? [[Special:Contributions/142.240.200.10|142.240.200.10]] 18:49, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Mudflap (ROTF)

2009-09-23T22:49:08Z

142.240.200.10:

Okay, I apologize for starting to get a bit edit war about this. Some people consider the twins racist caricatures. Others disagree. I really don't think this wiki should be dismissive of either side of the argument. I think noting the controversy without comment is fine. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:57, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
:I agree. I'm not sure if I find the twins racist caricatures (caricatures for sure, racist not for sure), but I find the dismissive behaviour to the accusations disturbing. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
::I dunno, I remember the exact same accusations with Jazz back in '07. Because he talked all ghetto, everyone thought he was black. Or blacker. Or making fun of black(er) people. That was because back in '84, Jazz was all up on Rock, and back then, rock was "rotting our brains". They just gave him ghetto as an update. It's like the accusations of racism in RE5. Just because a white dude (with a body like a melon on a fridge) was shooting a bunch of black villagers (with the occasional other white guy) who were trying to bloody ''disembowel'' him, everyone was all "[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism Help us, Emperor Jesse Jackson!]"

Face it. Every time something "non-white" pops up, someone will get offended. Remember that South Park episode when they were doing the Christmas thing, and everyone was offended by one, little thing, and the play ended up in them just hopping around to Phillip Glass? What would you rather have? "Get'r Dun!"?[[Special:Contributions/24.89.74.34|24.89.74.34]] 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Sign your posts. Also, you seem not to have a very proper understanding of how racism works these days. It happens more subtle, in ways you can brush off as coincidence or that you can counter with various arguments. That is ignoring the trend beneath. For instance, I don't find RE5 rascist for the killing of infected people coinicidentally native to Africa, but I have a slight problem with the main roles given mostly to the non-black characters while the game is set in Africa. Only Sheva and her boss are black main characters, and Sheva seems to me as a compromise by being much lighter in colour and more shaped to Caucasian beauty standards.

:::Bay has the subtlety of a brick to the face, and I doubt he's capable of recognizing racism if it's not blatant (he's at least incapable of recognizing sexism). Not saying the twins are rascist stereotypes, but they very well could be, even if they aren't meant that way. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:13, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Well if you'd looked at the article, Reno Wilson was told the characters were meant to be "wannabe gangsters", so he and Tom Kenny voiced them as such. He, a black man, is surprised so many people are offended.--[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:19, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Because blacks can't be rascist to blacks, or support rascist views from white people? That's a fallacy. I'd be surprised if most black people would find the twins offensive, but that doesn't mean an underlying wrong idea is not supported by carelessly accepting them. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:35, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Sorry, Geewunling, I tend to grossly oversimplify. You not finding RE5 non-offensive is exactly what I was talking about: Whenever something is question over racial protrayals [sic], it gets divided between "it's bad" and "It's not bad". You never really see the "not bad" side on the news, right? It's usually ten minutes of 'bad" with about forty-five seconds of "not bad". Let me clarify about Jazz, too. People found him offensive not because he was "black", but because he was the only Autobot to die, whereas the others survived, but were admittadly badly hurt. But I concede, because you're a better writer than I am.[[Special:Contributions/24.89.74.34|24.89.74.34]] 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::I think people found Jazz offensive ONLY because of his ONE LINE "what's crackin' little bitches?" and instantly label him as "black", and THEN get offended that he later dies. I realy don't get how people can think that giant fictional robots from space can be rasist.(granted, skids and mudflap were overdoing it, but people would be less ofended if they were humans AND black)--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 14:18, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== Twins article, + stereotyping again ==

1) Is there justification for an article at "Twins" or "The Twins" or "The twins", considering how much the phrase is explicitly used by the characters themselves and in numerous ancillary materials? I'm thinking it might be very short, maybe even no fiction section at all.

2) I'm more and more convinced that the twins are meant to be rural hicks trying to talk ghetto-speak while not having a clue about it. Is it worth noting this somewhere, since a lot of offended viewers seem to be completely missing this point, or is it too much of an opinion, or is it ''still'' OMG OFFENSIVE STEREOTYPE in some way that I'm totally missing? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:24, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:I'm sure I read somewhere that Bay himself stated that they where supposed to be a parody of white kids trying to be black. I too am for that "The Twins" article. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 11:31, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think the material is robust enough to support a multi-layered "supposed to be one group pretending to be another" interpretation. They could be supposed to be Haida Indians acting all ghetto, but with utterly no hint at all about the Haida while all we see and hear front and center is the ghetto. How is that any different from them just being ghetto? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 14:40, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:::I get "inbred hick" from their faces. Their hideous, malformed, asymetrical, bug-eyed, buck-toothed faces. *shudder* -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:05, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:There is a [[twin]] article that is meant to document what it means to be a Transformer twin. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:43, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::That's fine for the generic term, but "the twins" seems to be bandied about a LOT in specific reference to these two, in a way that hasn't been done for any other pair of TFs. (also, I totally failed to find that article, despite suspecting that it existed. We needa "twins" redirect.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 12:34, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:Look at their goddamn vehicle modes. Can you see the Crips or Bloods ridin' dirty in ''those'' things? That's fucking ''white'', man. It's practically translucent. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:59, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:::The same thing could be said about the Pontiac Solstice, though. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:45, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
::#Mention that multiple viewers took exception to the precieved portrayal.
::#Find a cits for Bay or Orci intendign them to be wiggas.
::#Point out that in the novelization (and presumably the early script) Skids was intended to have a lisp and not be a banger-- which really helped the duo 'read' as a white boy wannabees. This seems to have drifted in successive revisions so they're both wigga wannabees (Skids is just ''bad'' at it,)-- which opened the opportunity for confusion.
::Acknowledge the issue. Provide counter-statements. Show how the intention, the execution and the perception are 3 sides of the same coin and '''put the matter to rest.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

:::*[http://tformers.com/transformers-/11886/news.html Bay talks about how the twins vague characterization was originally vague and evolved during script recordings.]
:::* [http://tformers.com/transformers-/11986/news.html Orci + Kurtzman note that they were surprised how much Skids, specifically, changed from their script to the final film.]
:::*Skids VA is white.
:::So blah blah blah... what I said above. They were supposed to be a ''contrasting'' pair, the voice actors were encouraged to ad-lib, and that... just got changed. The result '''is''' a bit unfortunate (to the point that the scriptwriters admit that it made them uncomfortable) but it wasn't part of a ''conscious decision'' at any point along the way... just dogpile revisions. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:49, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I think what the articles say right now about the controversy is pretty much fine, without much need for change, and certainly shouldn't be changed to any way lecture genuinely offended viewers about they're "missing the point." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:03, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
:And, I might add, I think a lot of those offended aren't "missing the point" that the Twins are supposed to "white" guys acting in a manner stereotypically associated with black people, thus the comparisons to blackface and minstrel shows. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:11, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

==Ice Cream Truck Scale==
So there's a bit of a big gay revert war on about the relative size of the ice cream truck. I say we hold off on any explicit statements about the scale until the DVD drops, at which point we can actually use, you know, screencaps and references and shit. Unless, of course, someone knows exactly what model truck it's based on (looks like a 1930s U.S.-made pickup or delivery truck), and then we can conclusively say something. Personally, I think it's a non-issue and the truck is full-sized, because the idea of standing up to sell ice cream out of the back of a goddamned subcompact is ludicrous, but then again, there IS a process for this sort of thing. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:19, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Video link for you to prove (or disprove) the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoIllegalCamVidsAllowed. It just looks small to me. [[User:Crow T. Robot|Crow T. Robot]] 16:47, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
: What does it MATTER what scale it is? We have a [[scale]] article for this sort of thing. Keep this irrelevant, non-noteable nonsense out of the toy section. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
::This is all also ignoring that the Twins themselves are SMALL robots. They only look to be maybe 8 to 9 feet in robot mode. Bumblebee can (and does) pick each one up with one arm and sling them around off their feet with ease. Given the amount of mass that must spontaneously generate from nowhere in order for a fully-functional Topkick or Camaro to turn into hugeass robots like Ironhide and Bumblebee, the idea that two comparative midgets will cram themselves into a smallish van is far from the worst physics issue in the movie series. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:14, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
:I don't suppose [http://conceptartworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/ben_procter_rotf_04.jpg this concept art] by [[Ben Procter]] helps in any way, does it? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:44, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

And where exactly did the twins find and scan 1930's delivery-turned ice cream van in the first place? [[Special:Contributions/142.240.200.10|142.240.200.10]] 18:49, 23 September 2009 (EDT)