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Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)

2009-08-10T16:06:09Z

172.162.17.159:

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Though [[Trukk not munky|reviled]] by many Transfans when it first hit the airwaves in 1996, the wholly-[[CGI]] '''''Beast Wars''''' is now considered by many to be among the finest examples of Transformers storytelling.

:''Canadian name:'' '''Beasties'''
:''Japanese name:'' '''Beast Wars Metals''' (season 2-3)
:''French name:'' '''Animutants'''
:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Guerre-Betes'''
:''Italian name:'' '''Biocombat'''

==Overview==
The series opens at an unspecified time and place, where two warring factions of robots have crashed on a strange planet populated by animals like those on [[Earth]]. The planet abounds in mystery, with vast deposits of raw [[Energon (fuel)|Energon]] and evidence of [[Vok|alien]] activity. The Energon forces the newly arrived Transformers to take on protective beast forms to shield themselves from the ambient Energon radiation. And so begin the Beast Wars...

[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Rattrap and Airazor conspire to ruin school picture day.]]
Though at first the show seemed to be in an entirely separate continuity, by the end of the first season's 26 episodes, viewers had been treated to a number of classical Transformers references, such as [[Unicron]] and even the reappearance of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], last seen as a ghost in the third season of [[The Transformers (cartoon)|the original cartoon]]. These ties to the original story increased as the second season progressed and the planet was revealed as prehistoric Earth. The third season was entirely structured around the [[Maximal]]s defending their [[Autobot]] ancestors aboard the ancient crashed [[Ark (G1)|Ark]].

The show won over many viewers through fun, intriguing stories and generally high production values. Strong characterization, top-notch scripting and voice acting, and complex, overarching plot threads are among the reasons cited for the show's enduring popularity. Some of the show's mysteries and machinations remain topics for fan debate over a decade after it aired.

The show's CGI, though somewhat primitive by today's standards, was revolutionary by television standards of the time (and puts [[Energon (cartoon)|some later shows]] to [[Cybertron (cartoon)|shame]]). Mainframe's animators took pains to ensure their characters gestured and emoted in great detail, and the "camera" work often took creative advantage of the format's flexibility.

The show was immediately followed by a sequel series, ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
{{-}}

==Episodes==
{{main|List of Beast Wars episodes}}

''Beast Wars'' has had 52 episodes over 3 seasons.

===Season 1: 1996–1997===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Beast Wars (Part 1)]]
# [[Beast Wars (Part 2)]]
# [[The Web]]
# [[Equal Measures]]
# [[Chain of Command]]
# [[Power Surge]]
# [[Fallen Comrades]]
# [[Double Jeopardy]]
# [[A Better Mousetrap]]
# [[Gorilla Warfare]]
# [[The Probe]]
# [[Victory (episode)|Victory]]
# [[Dark Designs (episode)|Dark Designs]]
# [[Double Dinobot]]
# [[The Spark]]
# [[The Trigger, Part 1]]
# [[The Trigger, Part 2]]
# [[Spider's Game]]
# [[Call of the Wild]]
# [[Dark Voyage]]
# [[Possession]]
# [[The Low Road]]
# [[Law of the Jungle]]
# [[Before the Storm]]
# [[Other Voices, Part 1]]
# [[Other Voices, Part 2]]}}

===Season 2: 1997–1998===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Aftermath]]
# [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1)]]
# [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)]]
# [[Tangled Web]]
# [[Maximal, No More]]
# [[Other Visits (Part 1)]]
# [[Other Visits (Part 2)]]
# [[Bad Spark]]
# [[Code of Hero]]
# [[Transmutate (episode)|Transmutate]]
# [[The Agenda (Part 1)]]
# [[The Agenda (Part 2)]]
# [[The Agenda (Part III)]]}}

===Season 3: 1998–1999===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Optimal Situation]]
# [[Deep Metal]]
# [[Changing of the Guard]]
# [[Cutting Edge]]
# [[Feral Scream Part 1]]
# [[Feral Scream Part 2]]
# [[Proving Grounds]]
# [[Go with the Flow]]
# [[Crossing the Rubicon]]
# [[Master Blaster]]
# [[Other Victories]]
# [[Nemesis Part 1]]
# [[Nemesis Part 2]]}}

==Characters==
Because developing new CGI character models was, at the time, an expensive and time-consuming process, the number of on-screen characters in ''Beast Wars'' was relatively small compared to most other ''Transformers'' shows. It is thus practical to list all the Transformers who appeared in the cartoon. They are listed in order of appearance. (The [[stasis lock]]ed [[Autobot]]s and [[Decepticon]]s aboard the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] are not on this list.) Note that many characters besides these are also full-fledged ''Beast Wars'' characters, having appeared in other media.

===[[Maximal]]s===
[[Image:BW Maximals.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Time for Rattrap to lead.]]
*[[Optimus Primal]]
*[[Rattrap]]
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]]
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (allied with the Maximals, nominally a Predacon)
*[[Tigatron]]
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]]
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]]
*[[Depth Charge]]
*[[Tigerhawk]]

===[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]===
[[Image:BW Predacons.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Waspinator is loved by fans.]]
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]]
*[[Tarantulas]]
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]]
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]]
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (became a Maximal towards the end of the series)
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]]
*[[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]]
*[[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]
*[[Tripredacus Council]] (very briefly)
*[[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]]
*[[Dinobot II]]

===Others===
*[[Snowstalker]]
*[[Transmutate]]
*[[Protohumans]]
*Assorted [[Vok]]
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]

==International releases==
===Japan===
In Japan the show was split into 2 separate 26 episode series, ''Beast Wars'' which aired in 1997 (consisting of Canadian season 1) and ''Beast Wars Metals'' which aired in 1999 (consisting of Canadian seasons 2 and 3). The ''Beast Wars Metals'' series featured two additional clip shows:

*Episode 14: "[[Remix: Where is the Banana?]]"
*Episode 26: "[[Remix: I Lost the Banana!]]"

Japan crafted two separate theatrical releases, the first being "[[Beast Wars Special Super Lifeform Transformers]]" (premiering the episode "[[Bad Spark]]" as well as two other segments) and a triple feature of short animated films based on [[Takara]] toylines (premiering the episode "[[Cutting Edge]]"). Since these episodes were released theatrically, they are not included in the show's proper 26 episode list, with their places being taken by the pair of aforementioned clip shows.

Additionally, for whatever reason, the Japanese dub of ''Beast Wars'' and ''Beast Wars Metals'' notoriously chose to turn the series into a goofy comedy show with lots of fourth-wall humor and a relentless string of over-the-top and in-your-face jokes, even at the most ''inappropriate'' of moments.

Some examples include:

*The beginning of every episode would start with one of the characters asking a ridiculous question and receiving equally ridiculous answers (Optimus Primal asking "Where is my banana", for instance) before segueing into the opening rap theme by [[Banana Ice]].
*Rattrap would constantly break the fourth wall by "smelling" what the audience was eating and make gluttonous comments.
*Many characters received completely new personalities that were polar opposites to their Western interpretation (Depth Charge enjoyed singing folk songs while Megatron became a flamboyant madman that shrieked like a little girl at the sight of danger). Other characters had their ''genders'' altered (poor, poor Airazor).
*Clipshows would feature the characters interacting in silly situations such as gameshows and contests (in one instance, Megatron acted as judge in a celebrity impersonation contest).
While many long-time ''Transformers'' fans in Japan reviled this dub (including [[Hirofumi Ichikawa]]) it remained a hit with its target audience: young children. At any rate, this version of ''Beast Wars'' was popular enough to spawn two equally goofy-natured spin-offs, [[Beast Wars II]] and [[Beast Wars Neo]], and two Japanese-exclusive theatrical releases.

However, [[Pioneer|Pioneer's]] Japanese DVD sets of the series come with optional English language dialogue with Japanese subtitles, allowing fans in Japan to view the more serious version of the show if desired.

===United Kingdom===
When originally aired on GMTV in the United Kingdom, ''Beast Wars'' was only screened on school holidays, usually in double bills on Bank Holidays, and one episode per morning on half-term weeks, meaning that only a few episodes were shown a year, with wide gulfs in between (most prominently, ''three months'' passed between the airings of "Other Visits" parts [[Other Visits (Part 1)|1]] and [[Other Visits (Part 2)|2]]). In a sign of things to come, "[[Beast Wars (Part 1)]]" was shown some 25 minutes earlier than billed due to re-scheduled news reports, meaning many fans missed the entire opening episode. Things went from bad to worse when "[[Equal Measures]]" was skipped, and only continued when, after "[[Victory (episode)|Victory]]", the series skipped directly to "[[Other Voices, Part 1]]". The entirety of the second season followed the conclusion of the first, but the channel never aired the third season; although it was subsequently released on VHS, the cliffhanger-resolving "[[Optimal Situation]]" was only available as a free gift with purchase at [[Toys"R"Us]].

Additionally, these GMTV airings were modified in various ways. The first and most foremost alteration was the removal of the word "Transformers" from the series' title, which was only reinstated with "[[Other Voices, Part 1]]". With regard to the actual content, the earliest episodes generally had nothing more extreme than the removal of uses of the word "[[Slag (slang)|slag]]" (as it is effectively a synonym for "slut" in English slang), but with the beginning of the second season, edits were steadily made to episodes for no readily apparent reasons. Additionally, any scenes featuring flashing images were routinely put through a filter that slowed such scenes down to comical levels. This culminated in a butchered version of "[[The Agenda (Part 1)|The Agenda]]", which snipped out many short scenes throughout all three episodes for no reason, from inconsequential moments like Tarantulas cackling and driving out of his lab in Part 1, to key scenes such as Silverbolt and Optimus Primal's "office talk" in Part 2, and in what was the last straw for many fans, the complete second half of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s speech (''the part explaining [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]'s entire motivation''), also from Part 2.

During the time they had the rights to the series, GMTV also showed the entirety of seasons one and two on the then cable-only channel ITV 2. The UK's Channel 5 later showed the series in its complete form in 2003. Thankfully.

===France===
In France and (French) Belgium, the show was called "Animutants" and had a good quality dubbing, rather close to the original voices. But while the first two seasons of the show were aired, the third one never was; the show always ended with "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]", leaving the viewers in the area with the worst case of cliffhanger ever.

===Vietnam===
In Vietnam, the show was called "Chiến tranh quái vật vũ trụ" (Galaxy Monster Wars). The show was released on VHS tapes with a very good Vietnamese dub, then it was copied to VCD. Unfortunately, as happened in France, only the first two seasons were aired. It ended with "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]", and left the fans with a cliffhanger.

===Germany===
The German dub used the original title, ''Beast Wars'''. The show was initially very successful on the TV Station RTL2 and was released on VHS. However, only the first season was shown and dubbed. Furthermore, the TV broadcast had many fight scenes censored to comply with Germany's strict laws against TV violence; however, the VHS Release was uncut. After many reruns the show was cancelled and the second and third Season were never shown in Germany.

==Trivia==
* The first season of ''Beast Wars'' cost $18 million, according to [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/browse_thread/thread/b334d45514e26ab4/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&lnk=st&q=bob+forward+interview+inferno+megatron&rnum=1#bc8e54e9165e0823 a 1997 interview with Bob Forward].
* According to [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-CLUB_%28%E6%A8%A1%E5%9E%8B%E9%9B%91%E8%AA%8C%29 B-Club magazine], Beast Wars is the first fully CGI TV-show in the world. Too bad they don't know [[wikipedia:ReBoot|ReBoot]] is much earlier.
* The Production Designer for the show, [[Clyde Klotz]], won an Emmy for Outstanding Individual Achievement in Animation in 1997. How cool is that?

==See also==
*[[Dark Glass]] was an unproduced script intended for season 3.

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]
[[Category:Mainframe]]
[[Category:Television series]]

Scale

2009-08-10T14:15:24Z

172.162.17.159: /* Intentionally strange scale */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|300px|thumb|And the truck's how big...?]]
'''Scale''' in ''Transformers'' is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no era, franchise, fiction, [[Toy|toyline]] or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a logical or believable fashion. (The only exceptions are the 1:24 toys for ''[[Alternators]]'' and ''[[Kiss Players (toyline)|Kiss Players]]'', but they [[Atari Hitotonari|have their own problems]].) Most fans agree that one must either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to explain these problems and in the process fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, the scale problems of ''Transformers'' still merit description.

{{bigquote|"Clearly, the pitiful humans at Hasbro are so overwhelmed by the awesomeness of Cybertronian life forms that they can't get the scale right."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Transformers Comic issue 23|Star Scream's #23]]}}

==Scale within toylines==

===Toys out of scale with others in the same line===
[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|right|350px|thumb|That little guy — who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles — is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yeeeah.]]
The early [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the pre-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] lines, were repackaged and [[Redeco|redecoed]] toys from several different Japanese toylines. The crucial point is that the toylines were initially unrelated. The characters ''should'' be in scale to each other as they all have real-world altmodes that (should) pass for real vehicles. However, since ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issues arose. ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other (though problems already arise with [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], whose [[alternate mode]]s are based on ''the same car'' yet are not quite the same size), but many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from their deformed penny-racer proportions, a [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Volkswagen Beetle]] Microman toy is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Porsche 935]] Diaclone toy. The disparity becomes even more obvious with [[Mini Vehicle|Minibots]] such as [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]] (a tank) and [[Seaspray (G1)|Seaspray]] (a hovercraft), who should be many times their actual size.

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seekers]], who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 19.4 m (63.8 feet) long. Correctly scaled, this would make their robot modes ''colossal'' compared to most Autobots. Similarly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''Diaclone'' line, are too small. Far worse is the other ''Diaclone'' combiner team, the [[Trainbot]]s, who have train engine altmodes, yet their toys are among the ''smallest'' of the ''Diaclone'' releases.

Transformers are currently formalised to a variety of [[size class|size classes]], which dictate the approximate cost and dimensions of a figure. Consequently, if the powers that be release toys of two characters in the same line in the same size class, they're going to come out in the same size. Even if one character's a [[Starscream (Movie)|twenty-metre fighter jet]] and the other's a [[Ironhide (Movie)|five-metre pickup truck]]. So don't expect this one to go away any time soon.

===Toys out of scale within teams===
Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]] are wildly out of scale to each other—[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should dwarf [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]], with the others somewhere in between. Instead, they're about the same size. Among the Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] is designed to look like a gigantic [[Wikipedia:Image:Liebherr t282 1.jpg|"earth-mover" mining truck]]. He should be able to carry all his teammates in his bed, with some crowding. Similarly, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (a Concorde jet) is dramatically undersized compared to his fighter-jet [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbot]] teammates. These scale problems are necessary to avoid misproportioned gestalt forms.

Don't even ask about the Protectobots with their [[Groove (G1)|motorcycle]] and [[Blades (G1)|helicopter]] limbs...

===Same altmode, different sizes===
Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or similar) altmodes but whose toys are different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into an F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]]'s. The same can be said for the Lamborghini Countach [[Breakdown (G1)|Breakdown]], who should be the same size as [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], not significantly smaller. These discrepancies are also seen in the other [[Scramble City]] combiners with Earth altmodes, whose toys are all smaller than similar earlier toys.

===Multiple scales of same character===
Although it was never really a problem in G1 (later retro-iterations of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|G1 Prime]] e.g. [[Masterpiece]] don't count), later franchises sometimes released multiple versions of the same character in different [[size class]]es ''within the same product line'', usually limited to the leader characters. Multiple versions of [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]] and [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] in ''[[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' weren't exactly an example of this, as they represented different bodies, but ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' began the problem in earnest with three different [[Cheetor (BW)/toys|Cheetor toys]] released over the course of the line. With one toy at the Supreme size point, one at the Mega point, and a third slight variant at the Deluxe point, there was no real indication of which size if any was the "correct" one. The same line also released two different [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] toys, two different Tankor toys, two different Thrust toys, and two different Optimus Primals. (Though in the case of the Vehicons one of each pair could be considered a distinct "drone" version; in the media the "drones" and the "sparked" Vehicons were physically indistinguishable.)

[[Image:TFAnimated RolloutCommand OptimusPrime toy.jpg|right|230px|thumb|Hooray. I'm in scale with nobody.]]
''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' continued the trend, with several prominent characters receiving a smaller [[Spy Changer]] toy in addition to their larger toy, such as [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]] and [[X-Brawn]]. The ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' line featured both a Super-Con and Super-Base version of [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys|Optimus Prime]] featuring the same design at different size-classes, an issue repeated with [[Megatron (Armada)/toys|Megatron]] in ''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]''. The introduction of the "Legends of Cybertron" size class in ''[[Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' only compounded matters, as a plethora of different characters were released at a size wildly out of scale with any of their contemporaries. ''Cybertron'' also featured the first notable case of out-of-scale toys being at least partially explained in the fiction with [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]], who did change size over the course of the series.

With the explosion of toys for the [[Movie (toyline)|Movie]], even more scale problems erupted. The line offered both Voyager and Leader-class iterations of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys|Prime]] and [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], not to mention nearly all of the movie's onscreen cast getting a Fast Action Battler toy which introduces scale problems between the toys and one another. The fact that [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] came with a small Scorponok, and a separate Deluxe class [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] was released, only expands the scale problems when one realizes that the Blackout and Deluxe Scorponok toys are meant to interact. Blackout can carry the small Scorponok ''while'' clipped on to the larger one as well, effectively transporting ''both'' at the same time, which makes the entire assembly a nightmare of scaling problems.

This mishmash has expanded even further in the ''[[Transformers Animated (toyline)|Animated]]'' line, with Deluxe, Voyager, and even Supreme-class versions of [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]]. [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], has an Activators, Deluxe, Voyager and Leader mode. And there's even three different sizes for poor [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]]: Leader, Voyager, and Activator.

Originally, the intent was apparently to make the popular [[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]] and [[Megatron (disambiguation)|Megatron]] characters available at lower price points than just "leader" class so that children with less money would not miss out, while also forcing [[completist]] [[User:ItsWalky|collectors]] to buy multiple versions of one character. The result, however, is that it creates further confusion about scale within the toyline, as the contradictory sizes of these toys leave it [[Personal canon|up to the fans]] to determine which is the "correct" version, either using apparent [[show-accuracy]] or other criteria. Sometimes this creates even further problems, though—if one assumes that the Voyager-class Movie Prime is the "correct" version, then he either has comically small seats for human passengers or [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] has absurdly large seats.

===Toys out of scale with themselves===
[[Image:G1 Broadside toy.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Kill me. Just... kill me now.]]
[[Triple Changer]]s create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a 20 m (60') tanker truck into a 65 m (200') jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier.''

Even a two-mode toy can have this problem. Twentieth Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are pretty tiny for a Freightliner truck, while his rear hitch section is too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give his robot mode [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] proportions.

===Toys with roleplay altmodes===
The characters with roleplay altmodes such as Generation 1 [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)/toys|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]], or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|''Armada'' Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human-scale (well, kid-scale). Since the [[size changing]] seen in the fiction is not possible for real toys (at least, that's what [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] ''wants'' us to think), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes. E.g., [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]'s toy, in robot mode, is taller than most other Transformers.

The opposite problem is seen with [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Masterpiece Megatron]], whose robot mode is in scale with Masterpiece Optimus Prime. The result is that, while he may transform into a very accurately-proportioned handgun, it's unmistakably much larger than the real thing. (Not that this has stopped him being widely banned as a "realistic firearm replica"...)

===Fanciful altmodes===
Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] Generation 1 characters (for that matter, most post-Generation 1 lines) are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into futuristic or Cybertronian vehicles whose size we don't really know. (Or, indeed, they don't transform into vehicles at all.) The scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod (G1)/toys|Hot Rod]] or [[Overhaul (Cybertron)|Leobreaker]] is fairly arbitrary and can only be estimated by their relative size to other characters in the fiction (although most fiction is highly inconsistent in this regard, see below). Nevertheless, if one assumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended for human-sized passengers, comparing toys such as [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggests the combiner scale problem continues.

===Big toys===
It goes without saying that the [[city-bot]] and planetbot toys (such as [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Unicron]]) are not remotely to scale with normal Transformer toys. While they are indeed ''large'' toys, they're only two to five times bigger than typical Transformer toys, and thus transform into "cities" and "planets" about the (relative) size of a bungalow. The scale problems extend to the details. Some of the citybot toys have visible windows, which are too large for a city, suggesting instead a medium-sized building.

However, it's hard to begrudge Hasbro not offering us a [[Primus]] toy the size of an asteroid. Where would we keep it?

===An exception===
There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness in the toys: the ''Alternators'' toyline, where every toy is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car, and thus they are in perfect scale with each other. Unfortunately, for practical reasons this limits the choice of altmodes. A Blast Off (space shuttle) toy in scale with the Alternators toys would be 1.6 m (5.1') long, while a Broadside (aircraft carrier) toy at that scale would be over 12 m (40'). (Hasbro actually displayed [[Prototype|mock-ups]] for an unproduced line of "military" Transformers in scale with the Alternators during the BotCon 2007 Hasbro Tour; two of them recycled parts of ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' [[Unicron]], and were thus [[Size class|Supreme-sized]], which made said potential toyline not particularly commercially viable for Hasbro.)

== Scale within fictions ==
Scale issues abound within the fiction, especially the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]]. Some can be attributed to [[animation error]]s, such as layering problems,<sup>[[:Image:Tinybluestreak.jpg|1]][[:Image:Huge Ironhide and Small Ratchet.jpg|2]][[:Image:CarnageMiniBlaster.jpg|3]]</sup> but some "errors" were deliberate choices, for a variety of reasons.

===Fictional scale vs. toy scale===
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Frighteningly toy-accurate.]]
[[Image:Powerglide Astoria Marygoaround.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Actually, [[Kiss Players (franchise)|disturbing fiction]] is probably more of a concern than scale issues.]]
G1 ''Transformers'' fiction often depicts characters to the same relative scale as the toys, which duplicates the intra-toyline problems described above. The cartoon, for example, shows Prime, Megatron and Soundwave as about the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars as slightly shorter (though not as much as the toys are), and Minibots as smaller yet. This scale was carried over to their vehicle forms, resulting in differently-sized cars that, based on real world measurements, should be virtually the same size.

[[Image:Omegasupreme astrotrain.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I know he's meant to be big, but holy crap, dude!]]
For another example, the Marvel Comics portrayed the Pretenders as literal interpretations of their toys: 60-foot humans with full scale Transformers inside. The "disguise" aspect of this was later explained by having Landmine and Cloudburst encounter giant, transformer-sized humanoids on an alien planet which made them appear to be of a "normal" scale.

Transformers fiction commonly shrinks or inflates characters, relative to their toy sizes. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassette|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most Minibots, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized.

[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a [[redeco]] of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Airazor picks the Ultra-class figure.]]
The cast of ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' were size-tweaked quite a bit, relative to the toyline. The most noticeable problem is Optimus Primal, who has an Ultra toy (the "level four" size, almost twice the size of the "level three" Mega next-largest Maximal toys), but is shorter than both Dinobot and Rhinox (both of whom are "level two" Deluxe sized toys). Further, Cheetor and Tigatron's toys use the same (Deluxe) mold, but Tigatron is a head taller in the show (both because tigers are larger than cheetahs, and because Cheetor is "a kid"). New and altered characters in later seasons were generally more consistent in size (and appearance) with the toys.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was ''far'' worse in size discrepancies with the cartoon. Of the Maximals featured in the show, the tallest character, [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]], is the ''shortest'' toy, while the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is a massive Ultra-class toy. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy, Air Attack [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]], is a ''ginormous'' Supreme figure, towering over the other toys. (Weirdly, the King Kong-like size of this toy became canon in one specific [[micro-continuity]]. {{storylink|Prime Spark}})
{{-}}

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]
In the otherwise fairly toy-scale-savvy [[Unicron Trilogy]], [[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. Within the animation, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when shown directly interacting with their larger partners, are scaled up right along with their partner... resulting in some temporarily gigantic Mini-Cons!

The Japanese ''[[Cybertron (franchise)#Galaxy Force|Galaxy Force]]'' release of Metroplex, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends Class|Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys|Optimus Prime toy]] to indicate the "correct" scale.

The ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' franchise has its share of scale problems when comparing its toyline to the cartoon (not helped by multiple releases of some characters in different sizes—see above), with several characters seeming roughly one [[size class]] too small, such as the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobots]] being a mix of one Voyager size and two Deluxes, [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] looking rather diminutive as a Deluxe, and, most egregiously, [[Lugnut]] as a ''very'' squat Voyager who's shorter than even some Deluxes. (As with Voyager-class Bulkhead, more of his mass went into his width, plus his weapon takes away some from his robot mode.) Conversely, the traditionally stunted [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] is marginally too tall and bulky to be in correct scale to his otherwise fairly accurate core teammates, assuming one includes Voyager [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]] and Leader [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] in their lineup. In fact, Animated is one of those toylines where you're not quite sure who you're supposed to base correct scale on.

===Inconsistent portrayal===
[[Image:OmegaSupremeintro.jpg|left|175px|thumb|No! Don't wash him in hot water! He'll...]]
[[Image:Omegasupreme-blasterandgrimlock.jpg|right|200px|thumb|...too late.]]
Even if a size was decided on, it often didn't remain consistent. The height of the cartoon's [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], just to name one, frequently varied between episodes.

The [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|Generation 1 Marvel comic]] is notorious for changing the relative sizes of various characters. A single Transformer's size is rarely consistent between artists. For example, Rumble and Frenzy vary in height relative to Soundwave. A panel in the "[[Time Wars]]" shows [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]], [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], [[Scattershot]], and [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] all the same height. [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]], titanic in his original appearance, {{storylink|Command Performances!}} shrunk steadily in subsequent issues until he was not much taller than the average Transformer. Fortress Maximus suffered a similar problem, shrinking in size even though he was explicitly rebuilt to be twice as tall as the average Transformer.

[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime's in America... and Japan. Looks like the Blasty Zone adds on a few tons to Beast Era characters.]]
Between the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]] and the [[Beast Era]], the majority of the Cybertronian race considerably downgraded in size at the [[Great Upgrade]]. When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are quite small compared to the dormant Generation 1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]—but just ''how'' much bigger varies quite a bit from scene to scene and episode to episode. When interacting with the Autobot technology of the Ark and the [[Autobot shuttle]], the Maximals are often dealing with equipment grossly oversized for them (standing on the chairs to reach the controls, turning knobs the size of their heads); yet the Ark also seems to feature some human-sized computer control panels. {{storylink|Master Blaster|Master Blaster}} Without any height booster, Blackarachnia can interface well with these controls.

On the other hand, ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'' depicted Generation 1 and ''Beast Wars'' characters like Optimus Prime and Optimus Primal as being exactly the same size. Lovely. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]].

===Explicit size changes===
{{main|size changing}}

Numerous characters are explicitly shown to shrink or expand at various times.

====Human-scaled alternate modes====
Blaster becomes a human-size radio; Megatron shrinks into a Transformer-scaled handgun. The cartoons and comics typically show this without explanation, leaving the reader to attribute it to advanced alien technology.

====Pretenders====
Some versions of the Pretenders are shown to explicitly shrink when hiding in their human-sized outer shells. In the U.S. toy commercials, Grimlock, Bumblebee, and Jazz in their new Pretender forms were small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand. So, at least in that [[micro-continuity]], they were human-sized. ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' featured Pretenders who did not have outer shells but rather an ill-defined holistic transformation which explicitly involved size changing. A vaguely similar explanation appeared in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia.

===Implicit size changes===
Characters often change size when transforming in a less explicit fashion. These changes in scale are usually attributed to size changing by that portion of the fanbase who like to find explanations for things. The other explanation is that the artists hoped the audience wouldn't notice.

====Transport characters====
In the original cartoon, Transformers that act as transport for other Transformers, such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], and [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]], will often dramatically change size relative to their compatriots between one shot and the next. For example, Cosmos is ''much'' shorter than Blaster in robot form; yet Blaster easily fits within his spacecraft mode. Likewise, a whole squad of Decepticons can fit into Astrotrain's shuttle mode easily, yet he's an ordinary-sized trooper in his robot form.

Sometimes the cartoon would show ordinarily-scaled characters such as Cyclonus, Thrust or Huffer carrying another Transformer in their cockpit, implying either a tiny passenger or a huge vehicle. Even Omega Supreme, who is supposed to be huge, would have to have a greatly expanded scale for his rocket ship component to accommodate passengers as shown on the cartoon.

The Marvel comics commonly sidestepped this issue by not using Transformers as transport characters, or else requiring the passengers to transform into their explicitly smaller forms to be carried. Yet they were not immune to this problem. In one story, the Pretender [[Cloudburst]] exited his shell, transformed into jet mode, and then his shell (and [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]]) boarded him as a passenger. The fact that his ''outer'' shell was now much smaller than the ''inner'' robot was quietly ignored. {{storylink|Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?}}

Dreamwave's ''More Than Meets The Eye'' series of bio comics tried to explain this for characters such as Astrotrain and Broadside by saying they're able to expand themselves to increase cargo space in vehicle mode, though their armor becomes thinner as it is spread out more. Conversely, the series notes, in robot mode, all that armor and structure being compressed into a smaller form makes that mode stronger and more durable for combat.

<center><gallery>
Image:MakeHoistHuffer.jpg|Definitely ''not'' toy-accurate.
Image:Ironhide carried into Ratchet.jpg|...And not to mention [[Ironhide (G1)|th]][[Ratchet (G1)|is]].
</gallery></center>

====Combiner characters====
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Since when is a sedan nine stories tall?]]
[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown as [[That big green, fire-snortin' lizard|Godzilla]]-sized. Given that their limbs are mere cars and construction vehicles, this is patently absurd. ([[Superion (G1)|Superion]], by contrast, ''would'' be building-sized, given that his torso is a 100-seat jetliner.)

Combiners are also often out-of-scale with other Transformers; a combiner with cars for legs and another car for its torso should be only twice as tall as a one-car Transformer, but they are routinely drawn as five to dozens of times taller than their comrades.

====Scale problems and size-changing====
Some fans interpret the many otherwise-unexplained scale issues above to all be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters use mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop a few feet of height for no logical reason, the technology would be pointlessly mundane. There's also no known reason for (e.g.) the Seekers to choose to get ''shorter'' when going into battle. A to-scale Starscream in robot mode could kick Bumblebee around like a soccer ball. There's simply no positive evidence that size-changing is so widespread.

===Undersized alternate modes===
Many Transformers are portrayed in fiction as having alternate modes that are smaller than the real-life objects they are imitating. Sometimes this is deliberate, allowing them to match their toy scale and/or be of a similar size to other characters; in other cases, it is essentially an artistic error.

Toys at the lowest price points usually include "mini" or "micro" in their name. [[Mini Vehicle]]s [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]], [[Seaspray (G1)|Seaspray]], and [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]] are usually depicted as smaller than other Transformers in fiction, even though their alternate modes should have them towering over other characters. This often results in minuscule vehicle forms; Seaspray is a tiny hovercraft, despite being covered with doors and windows.

[[Image:Hotrodpatrolcommercial.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Do you have change for four hot rods?]]
The [[Micromaster]]s are explicitly downsized Transformers, roughly the size of a human in the comics, meaning that they ''should'' have explicitly tiny vehicle modes... which wouldn't make for very convincing disguises. The Micromasters are about the same height in robot mode, but they transform into equally tiny cars, trucks, planes, tanks, and other vehicles that should be vastly different sizes.

Despite this, the Marvel comic featured [[Roadhandler (G1)|Roadhandler]] carrying a human passenger in his vehicle form, as though he were a full-sized car. The Dreamwave miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' suggested that the Micromasters were scaled down to interact more easily with "smaller beings". Whether that meant creatures of human scale or even smaller stature is never clarified, but the Micromasters' passenger compartments are presumably too small to accommodate human passengers.

The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are another race of small robots who stand approximately the same height as humans and, like the Micromasters before them, are clearly modeled to carry passengers. Really teeny passengers. (Notable exceptions are [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (in his original body), [[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]], and [[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]], who become small one-man conveyances.) This results from the Mini-Cons scanning normal vehicles and then resizing them to fit, retaining now-useless passenger compartments. In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] have slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough for a single human passenger, implying either a little size-changing or that their cockpits are kinda cramped. Though the Recon Team all originate from Gigantion, and seeing how partnered Mini-Cons seem to change size to fit their larger companions, a little size shift to accomodate a passenger doesn't seem too far-fetched compared to other scale issues.

Likewise, the [[Beast Era]] Maximals and Predacons possess roughly human-size bodies; yet when portrayed as vehicles on Cybertron ("[[Dawn of Future's Past]]", the [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicons]] in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''), they feature seats and cockpits that, at their size, should be basically useless.

====Citybots====
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|200px|thumb|If you were ever this big in the cartoon, then we might call you a city.]]
[[City-bot|A few characters]] have "city" alternate modes. As actual real-life cities can sprawl for many miles, a [[city-bot]] that can notionally house a population of humans, ''let alone'' Transformers, should have a robot-mode that'd make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. Suffice to say, almost no fiction even ''begins'' to approximate the logical size of a true "city-bot". In the American and Japanese cartoons, all four were shown as massive robots capable of housing many normal-sized Transformers. Even so, it would take something along the lines of the grossly undersized depictions of [[Unicron]] (see below) even to begin to represent reasonably the colossal size of a transformed city; so in the context of Transformers, "city" is perhaps better read as "building" or "fortress".

These city-bots often have "small" robots forming vital components. Scorponok has a "human-sized" being forming his head. [[Full-Tilt]], [[Six-Gun]], and [[Slammer]] must logically be building-sized in robot-mode to be in-scale with Trypticon and Metroplex, but, again, are not drawn as such.

The Marvel Generation 1 comic sidestepped this issue by depicting Trypticon, Fortress Maximus and Scorponok as merely "large-standard" characters. However, Metroplex, during his one, brief appearance, was depicted as being immensely larger, crushing Quintesson attack cruisers under foot without batting an eyelid. He was still considerably smaller than a city, however, but this was justified by him merely serving as the 'transformation core' for Autobot City: Earth, not the actual city itself.

{{-}}

====Planets and planetbots====
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|250px|thumb|If we're generous and assume Cybertron is only the size of Earth's moon, then the larger visible buildings are roughly the size of Massachusetts stood on end, and you could wedge France into that gash. (Which would probably improve both Cybertron and France.)]]
Scale when it comes to planets is so fraught it's painful. The problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet alternate mode, and [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] is in turn supposed to be of similar size. Though different stories have compared Cybertron/Primus and Unicron to drastically different real planets, the fact remains that they are ''planets'', and yet are shown in such insane scale to characters as to suggest they are the size of a ''very'' small moon (or [[Darth Vader|space station]]).

To start with, Cybertron was shown throughout ''Generation 1'' with buildings visible from space. Although this was intended to show that the planet was technological in nature, it makes little sense, as the structures would have to be the size of small ''nations'' to be visible. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be skyscrapers (or even ''2000 A.D.''-style arcologies) sized for 10 m (30') robots, Cybertron would still be less than 150km (100 miles) across. The rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like shots of Cybertron in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' may be less distinctive or "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable. (Some people reason that the Transformers' advanced technology, along with their large size and their not needing to breathe, means that buildings actually CAN be that big.)

Unicron is a more extreme problem. Assuming no [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, what possible reason would he have to become ''smaller''?), in robot mode he would be so massive that any shot featuring a recognizable ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be on a scale such that no normal Transformer would even be visible. [[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is tiiinyyy!!!]]Scenes in the [[The Transformers: The Movie|1986 movie]] in which he directly interacts with normal Cybertronians are blatantly absurd (though totally phat-looking). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye, impaling [[Brainstorm]] on his fingernail, {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}} or ''especially'' him picking up Galvatron between his fingers before swallowing him, break any concept of "planetary" scale.

If Cybertron is the size of Earth's moon (and that's generous), and Unicron is about the size of Cybertron, his hands would be about the size of Europe and Galvatron (to the right) would be about the size of Denmark.

There is no explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' was (debatably) a slight improvement, in that physical interaction with normal beings was not attempted. He preferred instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing one of them. {{storylink|Sideways (RID)|Sideways}} Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

===Oversized alternate modes===
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I'm tellin' ya, all da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
Much less common are instances of a Transformer turning into an overscaled real-world object. Most such instances occur in the ''Beast Wars'' era.

Although the Beast Warriors are consistent day-to-day in their relative size to each other, their scale in relation to their real-world animal equivalents is more complex. While the bug characters such as [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously scaled-up, other characters are more subtly not quite the right size.

[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]] are shown standing next to real members of their species, and they are both the same size as the animals in question. {{storylink|Beast Wars (Part 1)}} {{storylink|Law of the Jungle}} This makes them (and Cheetor in particular, since he's around more) the measuring sticks for the other characters. Therefore, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is a roughly normal (or female) gorilla. However [[Rattrap]] is a monstrously huge rat, the size of a large dog (indeed, the writers stated that Season 1 Rattrap was 5' (1.5 m) tall<ref>[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/8227a6ca84c0238d Bob Forward gives Rattrap's height from the show bible]</ref>). Likewise [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] is considerably larger than a real velociraptor. [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], however, is a tiny specimen of a T. Rex. In their interactions with adult [[protohuman]]s, the Transformer characters seem between twice and three times their height. Considering our ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this is not extremely wrong, but it deserves noting.

However, thanks to the scaling up of the bug characters, it is relatively safe to assume that the Transformers scanned only animal ''forms'' and then rescaled them to fit their own size, which is actually slightly more believable than all other series, in which the Transformers use mass shifting to make their alt modes the ''right'' size.

===Artistic license===
====Variation for characterization====
[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|left|150px|thumb|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]]
Some scale problems are for the sake of characterization. For example, Optimus Prime is routinely shown as thoroughly gargantuan, several stories in height, and capable of cradling humans in his palm. If he's the size of a real truck, Prime in robot mode should be 8–10 m (25'–30') tall, at best. He's drawn large because he's a leader character.

Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown only a few feet taller than an average human, while in reality he would be 3–5 m (10'–15') tall (the Marvel comic actually states he's 15' tall {{storylink|Plight of the Bumblebee!}}). He's drawn small because he's a human-friendly character, and a junior member of the Autobots.

With fighter jet alternate modes, the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seekers]] should be among the largest everyday Transformers and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries; instead, the animation depicts characters such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as about the same height. Though jets are much larger than cars, they're drawn the same height so the battles appear fair. (And also to make it easier to animate; blocking a shot where characters differ radically in height is difficult.)

In a related vein, sometimes Transformers are able to enter human buildings, fitting through their doors and running up their staircases without crashing through. {{storylink|B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.}} A cast that couldn't enter buildings would be grossly inconvenient for telling some stories, so the animators fudge things.

{{-}}

====Intentionally strange scale====
[[Image:MarvelUS-01.jpg|right|200px|thumb|One side makes you larger, one side makes you small. (Op's been noshing on the first side too much.)]]
Sometimes artists draw a character at a different size [[Authorial intent|intentionally]]. For example, on the cover of the [[The Transformers (issue)|first issue]] of [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|the original ''Transformers'' comics series]], Optimus Prime is extremely huge compared to the highway, bridge, and normal cars. ([[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] is bigger than usual, too.) This is purely for dramatic effect.

Another notable example is the splash screen for the "[http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html World of the TRANSFORMERS]" website, which depicts [[Optimus Primal]] (in his original gorilla body) as the same size as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|G1 Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Movie Optimus Prime]], directly contradicting the size difference seen in "[[Optimal Situation]]" and elsewhere (except for ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'').

Artwork for the [[:Image:VaderVsPrime.jpg|''Star Wars'']] subline features [[:Image:Megatronvsluke.jpg|humans from another galaxy]] standing at the same height as Transformers, although this is simply because most of the figures in [[Attacktix|the tabletop game advertised by this artwork]] are the same size.

[[Image:World of the Transformers ent.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Meet the Supreme class Munky Optimus Primal.]]
{{-}}

===The 2007 ''Transformers'' movie===
[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. Riiight.]]
The creators of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] took great pains to avoid out-of-scale issues. (Well, greater than previous franchises.) This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle or the design of their robot mode. E.g., [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is an extended-hood cab in order to have more mass with which to make a taller robot mode. [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a hulking, towering robot mode.

There are still minor scale issues to be found, though. For example, Optimus Prime can hold both [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]] and [[Mikaela Banes|Mikaela]] in one hand. Comparing this shot with when he picks up [[Archibald Witwicky]]'s glasses a few minutes later, it seems the glasses have lenses a foot (30cm) in diameter. This is a visual cheat so the glasses are visible to the audience. There's also debate about whether [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]'s head could compact itself into a slim mobile phone. The [[Movie (toyline)|movie-franchise toys]], meanwhile, are only intermittently consistent (particularly since some of the secondary ones are redecos of toys from previous lines), with the largest contrast among the "primary" toys being between Deluxe Class [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], a motorcycle, and Voyager Class Decepticons with helicopters as their [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]], such as [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] and [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]]. However, many of the wheeled vehicles are close to 1:35 scale, although Deluxe Class [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and Classic Camaro [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]] are ''obviously'' not the same scale. Even more oddly, the vehicle modes of Classic Camaro Bumblebee and Concept Camaro Bumblebee are not the same scale, yet their robot heads are the same size (albeit different sculpts).

{{-}}

==Official scale guides ==
[[Image:Tfcartoonscaleguideic1.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Official Scale Guides]]
[[Image:Beastwarsscalepreliminary.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Beast Wars Season 1 scale guide]]
Animators and comic book artists received official scale guides showing relative and (in some cases) absolute heights. Some of these were published in the character model guides ''[[The Ark: A Complete Compendium of Character Designs|The Ark]]'' and ''[[The Ark II — A Compendium of Japanese Character Designs|The Ark II]].'' Though they were sometimes ignored, they still give insight into the official scale of characters in Generation 1. However, even here, there are problems. Devastator in the Season One scale guide was approximately 2.5 times the height of Optimus Prime, but by Season Two he was somewhat less than twice Prime's height.

''Beast Wars'' likewise had an official scale guide, which appeared as a bonus on the DVD set of Season 2. Despite this guide, the series writers have indicated some measure of disregard for relative scale, when it suited the needs of dramatic tension.<ref>[http://builtstlouis.net/tf/manic/m-botcon.html BotCon 98 report - see "ON THE SIZES OF CHARACTERS"]</ref> Thus, Optimal Optimus is ''ungodly'' tall in his first appearance, later reduced to perhaps two times the height of the rest of the cast.

{{-}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Toys]]
[[Category:Things that don't exist]]

Attacktix

2009-08-10T13:31:07Z

172.162.17.159:

[[Image:Attactix los.gif|right|350px|thumb|Optimus Prime likes to hide behind words.]]
'''Attacktix''' is one of [[Hasbro]]'s new gaming properties. Players select an "army" of figures, then try to use the figures' special abilities (firing missiles, spring-loaded strike attacks, and the like) to knock down the opposing force. The games rules are set as such that the game can be played very simply and quickly between two players, or more involved battles with multiple players and more rules and turnarounds.

Initially, the ''Attacktix'' line consisted solely of ''[[Star Wars]]'' characters; however, Hasbro has since introduced ''Transformers'' characters to the mix -using a combination of characters from the [[Unicron Trilogy]] and [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] series, even dipping into ''[[Universe (2003 franchise)|Universe]]'', the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie]] (nearly) and a few unique creations, plus recently added heroes and villains from [[Marvel Comics]]. Most strikingly, the Attacktix line featured a "Intergalactic Showdown" crossover pack, pitting ''Transformers'' characters AGAINST ''Star Wars'' characters for utter supremacy of the Male Action market. [[Marvel Comics]] characters soon got their own assortments as well.

[[Image:AttacktixBoosters.jpg|left|150px|thumb|HA HA FETT.]]
Most of the pieces are available in randomized, blind-packed Booster sets. Originally these came three to a pack, but with the addition of ''Transformers'', the sets were reduced to cheaper two-packs. The Booster-pack figures are (somewhat misleadingly) rated "Rare" and "Super Rare": each pack contains one of each, but there are twice as many "Super Rare" pieces in an assortment as there are "Rares".

''All'' of the Attacktix characters are compatible and you can use multiples of any one; you can have a team consisting of Yoda, [[Ransack (Cybertron)|Ransack]] and [[Spider-Man]] if you wish, or nothing but multiple [[Decepticlone|Decepticlones]].

''Wicked''.

The entire line was put on "indefinite hiatus" in early 2007, with a great many planned and revealed pieces being put into limbo. Its return is questionable.

{{-}}

==Gameplay Basics==
[[Image:AttacktixDemo.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Tabletop gaming condensed down to simply knocking things over. Awesome.]]
The most basic setup of the game involves two players picking an equal number of pieces and placing them on a smooth surface about three feet apart. Players then move as many pieces as they wish as many "tix" as shown on their piece by "rolling" them. At any time during movement, the player can attack with a set number of their pieces; the last player to have any pieces standing wins.

Most pieces fall under two attack categories: Missiles or Melee. (There are a few special cases, but so far, all ''Transformers'' pieces are combat-only.) Missile-launching pieces can attack from a distance (the spring mechanisms in Attacktix pieces are very strong), but typically cannot move as many "tix" per turn. Melee pieces need to get up-close for their swipes, stabs, and lifting actions to be effective, so to counter that they typically can move a greater number of "tix" per turn.

More advanced methods of play are set up using '''Point Values''' and '''Special Powers'''.

===Point Values===
Every piece is rated a certain number of Points. Typically, the higher the point value, the more effective the piece is in battle (more "tix" per turn, more effective attacks/special powers, wider bases to make knocking them down more difficult, etc). While most pieces range from 10 to 40 points, the large and very powerful "Battle Master" pieces can be worth up to 80. Players may set a maximum total point value to even the playing field, adjusting strategy to match: use a large force of weaker troops to wear down the other team with multiple attacks, or only a few very strong ones in the hopes of overpowering the opponent quickly.

===Special Powers===
On the bottom of every piece's base is a Special Power that goes into effect when the piece is knocked over, ''if'' the "Attacktix Window" on the bottom shows white. These vary wildly, from giving you retaliatory moves and/or attacks, replacing the fallen figure with another piece of a specified Class, Allegiance or even a specific character, and such. It is a good idea to assemble a team whose Special Powers complement each other; while this typically means sticking with a "theme" (Imperials, Autobots), this is not always the case, thanks to the Class markings.

==Transformers Attacktix pieces==
{{note|More detail on each pieces' Special Powers are given on their individual pages.}}
===Series 1===
{| border="4" style=width:100% text-align:center" cellspacing="0"
|-
| '''NUMBER''' || '''CHARACTER''' || '''ALLEGIANCE''' || '''CLASS''' || '''ATTACK TYPE''' || '''POINTS''' || '''RARITY'''
|-
| TF01 || [[Mini-Con]] ([[Skyboom (Energon)|Skyboom]]) || Autobot || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF02 || [[Omnicon]] (gold [[Signal Flare (Energon)|Signal Flare]] type) || Autobot || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF03 || [[Decepticlone]] (gray [[Light Unit]]) || Decepticon || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF04 || [[Insecticon (Energon)|Insecticon]] || Decepticon || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF05 || [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] || Autobot || Captain || Missile || 20 || Rare
|-
| TF06 || [[Battle Ravage]] || Decepticon || Specialist || Melee (flail) || 20 || Rare
|-
| TF07 || [[Scourge (Cybertron)|Scourge]] || Decepticon || Specialist || Melee (swing) || 20 || Super Rare
|-
| TF08 || [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (''Cybertron'') || Decepticon || Captain || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF09 || [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (''Cybertron'') || Autobot || Warrior || Missile (wide) || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF10 || [[Excellion]] || Autobot || Warrior || Missile (wide) || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF11 || [[Vector Prime]] || Autobot || Leader || Missile (wide) || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF12 || [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] (''Energon'') || Autobot || Warrior || Melee (stab) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF13 || [[Optimus Prime (Armada) toys|Super Optimus Prime (''Cybertron'', robot)]] || Autobot || Leader || Missile (wide) || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF14 || Super Optimus Prime (''Cybertron'', vehicle) || Autobot || Leader || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF15 || [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]] || Decepticon || Captain || Melee (lift) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF16 || [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron (''Cybertron'', robot)]] || Decepticon || Leader || Missile (wide) || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF17 || Megatron (''Cybertron'', jet) || Decepticon || Leader || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF18 || [[Ransack (Cybertron)|Ransack]] || Decepticon || Specialist || Melee (grapple) || 20 || Super Rare
|-
| TF19 || [[Overhaul (Cybertron)|Overhaul]] || Autobot || Leader || Missile (wide) || 30 || N/A
|-
| TF20 || [[Dirt Boss (Cybertron)|Dirt Boss]] || Decepticon || Warrior || Missile (forked) || 30 || N/A
|-
| TF21 || [[Skyblast (Energon)|Skyblast]] (robot) || Autobot || Warrior || Melee (stab) || 30 || N/A
|-
| TF22 || Skyblast (vehicle) || Autobot || Specialist || Missile || 20 || N/A
|-
| TF24 || [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] || N/A || Mega || Melee (manual throw) || 80 || N/A
|-
| TF25 || [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]] || Decepticon || Captain || Melee (punch) || 30 || N/A
|-
| SVT01 || [[Omega Sentinel (Energon)|Omega Sentinel]] || N/A || Mega || Missile (quadruple) || 70 || N/A
|-
| SVT05 || Super Optimus Prime (''Cybertron'', robot) || Autobot || Leader || Missile (wide) || 40 || N/A
|-
| SVT06 || Megatron (''Cybertron'', robot) || Decepticon || Leader || Missile (wide) || 40 || N/A
|-
| P01 || Decepticlone (white Light Unit) || Decepticon || Trooper || Missile || 10 || N/A
|}
===Series 2===
Series 2 of Transformers Attacktix is currently "on hold", as is the entire line so far. According to ''Attacktix'' creator [[Brian Wilk]] in an interview at San Diego Comic-Con 2007, Hasbro is re-evaluating the presentation of the line, from packaging (how the pieces are presented, emphasis on the game, the whole blind-packed issue) to placement in the aisles to better grab kids before re-launching the line. As such, this list is certainly subject to change.

{| border="4" style=width:100% text-align:center" cellspacing="0"
|-
| '''NUMBER''' || '''CHARACTER''' || '''ALLEGIANCE''' || '''CLASS''' || '''ATTACK TYPE''' || '''POINTS''' || '''RARITY'''
|-
| TF01 || [[Arcee (Energon)|Arcee]] || Autobot || Leader || Missile || 20 || Rare
|-
| TF02 || Omnicon (blue Signal Flare type) || Autobot || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF03 || [[Bunker-Buster|Mini-Con]] (black Skyboom type) || Decepticon || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF04 || Decepticlone (purple Light Unit) || Decepticon || Trooper || Missile || 10 || Rare
|-
| TF05 || Dark Crumplezone || Decepticon || Warrior || Melee (punch) || 30 || Rare
|-
| TF06 || [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] || Autobot || Specialist || Missile || 20 || Rare
|-
| TF07 || [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] || Autobot || Leader || Melee (rammer) || 20 || Super Rare
|-
| TF08 || [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] || Decepticon || Captain || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF09 || [[Checkpoint (Energon)|Checkpoint]] || Autobot || Specialist || Missile || 20 || Super Rare
|-
| TF10 || [[Strongarm (Energon)|Strongarm]] || Autobot || Warrior || Melee (axe swing) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF11 || Starscream (''Energon'', vehicle) || Decepticon || Captain || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF12 || [[Thrust (Attacktix)|Thrust]] (robot) || Decepticon || Specialist || Melee (stab) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF13 || Thrust (vehicle) || Decepticon || Specialist || Missile || 20 || Super Rare
|-
| TF14 || [[Whirl (Universe)|Whirl]] (vehicle) || Autobot || Warrior || Missile (x2) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF15 || Super Optimus Prime (''Cybertron'', "spark attack") || Autobot || Warrior || Missile || 50 || Super Rare
|-
| TF16 || [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] || Autobot || Captain || Missile || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF17 || Dark Scorponok || Decepticon || Warrior || Melee (lift) || 30 || Super Rare
|-
| TF18 || Galvatron (''Cybertron'') || Decepticon || Leader || Missile || 40 || Super Rare
|-
| TF19 || [[Optimus Prime (G1) toys|Optimus Prime]] (Generation 1) || Autobot || Leader || Missile || 40 || N/A
|-
| TF20 || [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]] (Generation 1) || Decepticon || Leader || Missile || 40 || N/A
|-
| TF21 || [[Skywarp (Armada)|Skywarp]] (''Cybertron'' [[Legends Class|LOC)]] || Decepticon || Warrior || Missile || 30 || N/A
|-
| TF22 || [[Landquake (Energon)|Landquake]] || Autobot || Specialist || Melee (stab) || 30 || N/A

|}

{{note|The last four pieces on this list, The Generation 1 Optimus, Megatron, and Unicron Trilogy Landquake and Skywarp, did in fact see a limited retail release, popping up mainly in stores like Meijers or TJ Maxx.}}

===Other known pieces===
Several other Attacktix pieces were revealed at various conventions (oddly enough, most at the Star Wars "Celebration IV" convention), or through official solicitations, but ultimately never saw release. Some were slated to be in "starter packs", but most were likely boosters. Most of their in-game statistics are unknown.

{{collist|3|
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]
* [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] ([[Movie (franchise)|movie]])
* [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] (movie)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (''Energon'')
* [[Grapple]]
* [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (Generation 1)
* [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (Generation 1)
* [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (Generation 1 ''[[War Within]]'')
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] (Generation 1)
* [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] (movie, blaster-type)
* [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] (movie, striker-type)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (Generation 1)
* [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] (movie)
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]
* [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] (movie)
* [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] (Generation 1)
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] (Generation 1)
* [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] (Generation 1)
}}

==External links==
* [http://www.hasbro.com/attacktix/ Official Hasbro Attacktix website]
* [http://attacktix.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=trans Transformers Attacktix forum]
* [http://joeattacktix.com/index.html JoeAttacktix, fan-forum and news site for Attacktix (and semi-related lines)]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKdY6Wdqt8 Attacktix Promotional Video]

[[Category:Attacktix]]

Talk:Ruined FOREVER

2009-08-10T12:34:05Z

172.162.17.159: /* Adding to the list */

==Regarding deletion==
I see no point to having this article. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 07:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:There are 4 instances of Ruined Forever on [[Transformers timeline|this page]] alone. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::I see no point to having those, either. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 07:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::JaAm has a page. 'Ruined Forever' is used ironically within the fandom- and this is clearly marked as a fandom article just like [[True fan]] is. Ruined Forever is clearly more prominent than [[Dull surprise]], though possibly not as widely as [[Neon]]. (Which now that I look at it need its opening quote reformatted...) My entire impetus for creating it was that Sntint made an ironic Ruined Forever joke on a talk page and I was like- "huh, why dont' we have a page for that?" (Well, also I wanted to wash the bad tast of [[Don Murray]] out of my brain.)
:::Ruined Forever appears to rest comfortably within the range of existing articles on the Wiki, but I am content to allow others to decide. If a majority think it's not relevant to Transformers the article can be deleted, as always. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I say it's as relevant as Playskool, neon, and FIRRIB. {{unsigned|Terrocon Blot}}
:::::And Derik on the rebound to make me feel dumber. It's not enough that I misspelled my own screenname, he's also got to sign my posts for me. Damn that Derik. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWN. --[[User:Terrocon Blot|Terrocon Blot]] 07:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I vote for keeping the page. As already stated, a number of other pages already exist to explain similar fandom colloquialisms. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 13:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:I don't see this article as explaining anything. It seems to exist purely to ridicule fandom behavior that we don't like, and thus I see no point to keeping it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 19:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it needs to stay too. Where else would terms like ''Ruined FOREVER'', [[Furmanism]], and [[Chewed caramels]] be documented for all time, if not here?--[[User:Evil-yuusha|Evil-yuusha]] 14:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Do these fandom terms need to be ones that are famous/infamous, known or used widely? Then how about TFW2005's 'HE TELL ME' (in reference to that guy who claimed Peter Cullen was cast as RID Prime)? TFW2005 is probably the most prominent of the Transformers fan sites, as well as the one that Hasbro seems to unofficially prefer. I personally never even heard of 'dull surprise' until I read it on this wiki. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Nor I. But I don't think we're just documenting memes-- each of these articles, Truk !Munky, Chewed caramels even JaAm are 'about' a belief/response/tendency in fandom- not just the phrase used to illustrate it. Dull Surprise is a belief the masturbatory praise heaped on Superstar Funana was undeserved, JaAm is about the backlash against Dreamwave's style-over-sanity lack of visual storytelling, Truk not Monkey encompasses both knee-jerk hatred of BW and frustration about knee-jerks, and Chewed caramels ''seems'' to be about a desire that all TF toylines subscribe to some broad interpretation of G1's design aesthetic. I doubt anyone put ''conscious thought'' into this, but the fandom-meme articles people found worthy of creating aren't ''just'' about the phrase- they're about phrases that expresses something larger about how fans relate to Transformers.
::(I'm not familiar with 'HE TELL ME' and where it may fall with this.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I think dull surprise is way too limited in use (basically just #wiigii! as far as I know) to really belong here, but Derik does sort of have a point about the article being about a little more than that. I also don't know "HE TELL ME" but it sounds like something worth considering -- claims of unnamed inside sources and all that. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Oops, it was actually Peter Cullen as Armada Prime. The posts (being from 2002), no longer exists, but fortunately blitz_64 managed to save the posts for posterity [http://www.geocities.com/blitz_64/HETELLME.html The Saga of HE TELL ME and GoOP].

::::Actually, Steve-o, I'd say "Secret Inside Sources" would be a more appropriate meme/article to describe that last one. Having never heard of "HE TELL ME", and seeing that few others apparently have either, I'm not sure it's as much a meme as "Secret Inside Sources" is.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

::::Around the same period, I recall some other idiot who claimed to be a Hasbro photographer and described crazy things like the Mini-Cons becoming body armour and Prime's minicon transforming into his Matrix. These claims, while totally false, were important because they apparently spurred Aaron to emerge as ORSON and totally destroy that other dude, IIRC. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I remember that quite vividly indeed. The guy who claimed to be the photographer actually revealed himself over [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=26415&st=20&p=551756&#entry551756 at the Allspark this year], actually. Oh yeah, and I think the animu thing was 4Chan leakage [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=animu].--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 05:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I say we keep it. [[User:Compy-Rex|Compy-Rex]] 18:55, 16 March 2008 (UTC)Compy-Rex
:If this page is deleted I will cry. [[User:(Undecided)|(Undecided)]] 05:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

==Usage==
Has "ruined forever" ever been used seriously by fans? While it describes a real and annoying sentiment, I'm not sure I like basing an article on a phrase that was sarcastic in the first place. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Seconded. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 18:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:I'm sure something very similar, at least, has been used. But regardless, you say that it describes a real sentiment, so, what's the problem? Can you recommend a better title for the article? Or are you saying the article shouldn't exist at all? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 19:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Well, my vote is for not existing at all. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 19:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I (and a number of others) used to think "Rapeing my childood" was only used for sarcastic reasons. Then I read the thread on the promo poster for Transformers Animated, which had a number or people using the seriously. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Has Trukk not Munky ever been used in a non Ironic/Sarcastic way? It's still a catchphrase used by the fandom, as is this. Both rate articles under the fandom category, IMo.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 20:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:The '''scream your head off in outraged panic''' / '''call for mass-firings or send death threats over something that has/will ruin/ed TF''' ''behavior'' of this article certainly was in evidence during Beast Machines- and I think the "sky is falling" aspect is amply evidenced by the sheer ''number'' of times fans have declared TF ruined forever. (And, clearly, been wrong every time, or every time but 1 depending on your belief system.)
:If you have some other title you'd prefer for this article like 'Clicken-Little Syndrome' by all means propose it and see what people think, but the article speaks to a genuine (and highly mockable) aspect of fandom psychology.
:And frankly, while the ''behavior'' itself is worthy of ridicule, the ''reason'' for it- an exaggerated concern for the health and future of the brand- is actually kinda ''endearing'' and speaks well of fans. At least their ''hearts'' are in the right place. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

==Paul Dini==

I think accusing the fandom of saying the art style of Paul Dini ''the writer'' being used for Animated will "RUIN TRANSFORMERS FOREVER" is making the article simply too mean-spirited. I've never seen any individual display the idiocy we're accusing the fandom of with that line. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 05:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I have.
Scary, scary stuff.

Also, the last line of the entry seems to cut a little into the humor by overexplaining. Replace it with a "general hasbro idiocy" linking to "transformers" or somesuch?

==Marked for deletion.==

This is getting out of hand.

This page has become the epicenter of an edit war that has gone on for nearly a week now. As of the time of this writing, only six other pages link to this article. While I fully support the light tone of Teletraan I, and I understand that some explanation of aspects of the fandom complete the Wiki, I believe this particular article and debate at this point only detracts from the issue.

I DO agree that it was biased in the form in which it existed before our anonymous editor "friend" decided to change it, but I do not think that matters any longer. This article does not add anything inherently positive to the wiki, indeed, it does not chronicle anything positive ''or'' negative about Transformers itself at all. Its relation to Transformers is tangential at best.

By deleting this, we would not lose anything except the beginnings of what appear to be the modern equivalent of a Usenet flamewar. Deleting it, I believe, can only benefit Teletraan I. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 12:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

:I whole-heartedly agree. [[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
::I agree. I didn't feel this article was necessary, and I still don't. I agree that the fandom is full of idiots who never bothered to grow up after 1986, but our mockery of them doesn't belong in the wiki. Not to say that Mister "integrity of the characters" is right, though. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 12:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm putting in a vote for keeping it. It's a fun article to read, and it speaks a lot of truth in it's wonderfully snarky way.--[[User:Gouki|Gouki]] 12:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
::::Snarkyness can be fun but this article is just pushing it, IMO. [[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think it should stay, it's funny. Also, if you delete it then the terrorists win.
::::::I would keep it. I think it describes a real sentiment, that needs to be pointed out as overblown. [[User:JW|JW]] 13:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The edit war was only between registered users and a single unregistered dude. I've fixed things, at least for the moment, by protecting the page from unregistered editors. If you're gonna get in a pissy editing war, we'd damn well better know who you are. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
:Our anonymous friend is from the Netherlands, if anybody cares. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 14:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This "Ruined FOREVER" article is stupid and don't make any sense. Its just shit

: [[Seafood Louis]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the opinion of an anon means anything, but I think this article is freaking hilarious. I was talking with a friend about TF:Animated and he said that the girl with the transforming bike 'ruined it permanently' so I linked him this article. He laughed and said, 'ok, well maybe I'm over-reacting.'

I think the article is funny and provides valuable perspective. {{unsigned|66.167.253.76}}
: Well said, citizen. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
:Well, you've cancelled out the other anon from earlier, at any rate. And yeah, I agree with your assessment of it.--[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 22:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
:Same --[[User:Chiasaur11|Chiasaur11]]

I happen to think this article is incredibly useful in charting the tendency for all fans everywhere (but especially TF fans) to react in comical and hyperbolic ways. I think the breadth of what people determine can/has ruined TF forever automatically makes the article an amusing and insightful look for the novice fan into the fandom's reactionary past.

Indeed, I actually have shown this article to people just coming back (or getting into) TF. It's inspired about as many laughs as it has genuine curiosity as to what the fandom and franchise are like as entities. Isn't that the idea of this wiki? I would think reference materials as to the history of the fandom, good and bad, are always a boon.

(and that aside, I just think it's really, really funny)

.... Aaaaaaand I had to go and screw up. Bah. That's me above. --[[User:Cmdr Crayfish|Cmdr Crayfish]] 10:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

==Where do we draw the line?==
How do we stop this from becoming just a giant list of everything that anyone has ever expressed any dislike for ever? Why, for instance, is ''The Beast Within'' in there? Or Gonzo (which I thought was generally accepted as at least ''better'' than We've, even if not as good at Mainframe)? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
:I've kinda been watching this list grow with some mild irritation- it went from about 1 item for every 2 years to ''twice'' that in fairly short order, and that bothers me.
:I've sorta resolved to edit the list down this October, pruning it (so to speak) with some opportunity for people to say what should stay and what should go.
:The Beast Within has to stay though- at the ''very'' least it ruined the Dinobots forever- now whenever George Rodd brings up combiner Dinobots we have to grudgingly admit they're canon. Also, it was the reason for the article's creation in the first place. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
::Why wait? If we want this to be a list of developments that prompted widespread fury that lingered for years, we can shorten it to "Actionmasters, BW, BM, Armada, Hallit, and Bay," and perhaps a few others, right now. Then a "Trivia" note saying that The Beast Within really DID ruin Transformers, or at least Dinobots, forever. Just a thought... but yeah, having every single series in there dilutes the point. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Problem is, how do you decide what deserves to be listed as ruining TF forever, if none of it really did in the first place. I've seen just about everything listed there used as an example of why ____ TF series/movie/toyline will fail--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 20:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Also, Thy, I'd append your list with a general "*-masters" thing, as a lot of armchair CEOs claim that the entire -master trend killed the line, not the fact that it had, you know, run its course. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 14:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:::I'll just basically agree with Thy and Hoop that whatever's listed here should have a certain "endurance" as a scapegoat. The turnaround of opinion on Animated was what, two weeks? "* Masters" certainly counts, as should Pretenders. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:::What, a simple a Google newsgroup search for [http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22killed+transformers%22&start=10&sa=N&scoring=d&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&|"killed transformers"] ain't enough? /:] -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 05:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:I doubt I'd get objections if I added it, but I'd like to throw it by the community: Should we readd [[Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 04:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

::I really think Animated should stay in there, if only because it's '''such a dramatic departure.''' Turn around was fast, but the initial reaction was strong. I mean, for the first time in fifteen years of being a fan, I actually found myself muttering "My god... they've finally done it. It's ruined..." --[[User:70.190.251.10|70.190.251.10]] 05:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

beast wars didnt reuin tf beast machines sorta did but it was still quite good ,if u ignore some minor things - Unsigned post by [[User:80.6.180.141|80.6.180.141]]
:You're missing the point of the article, then. The point is that every time something new comes along, the fandom screams about how it will ruin Transformers forever, when in reality it's usually the opposite. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 22:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

==Last Deletion Locked in?==
Spotted a couple of points on the list removed by [[Special:Contributions/Teletraan|someone who seems to like deleting stuff just because]], but when I tried to restore the page, it was already locked. Were his edits accepted, then?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 15:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
:There are two facets to this. First, without occasional pruning, the list in this article tends to grow, and grow, and grow. Every now and then, someone has to come along and cut it back. Since this is a wiki, the question of what gets cut is made by the person willing to do the cutting.
:The second facet is that the items cut were in fact less core to the "ruined forever" concept. "Runined forever" is a cry that springs up whenever ''something new is added to the Transformers brand'' by HasTak, and it happens every single time. Thus, the fans ''can't'' ruin TF forver, because they don't add new canon. And, while HasTak ''can'' ruin TF forever, it's because they're the only ones who can do so. I.e., one of the cut items was in error, and one was redundant. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
::Fair enough, I suppose. It was a combination of both the deletions and the person who committed them that made me question their validity.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 17:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
:::Yah, user Teletraan is not exactly a primo contributor. Still, this particular edit seems (at minimum) defensible. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

==Masters of the Universe link==
I've never, ever been interested in MOTU, so I have no idea what was the cause of the revamp line's failure, but given the extreme slant of the article, I can only assume it failed because it concentrated on collectors rather than kids. If so, why does it link to a Wikipedia article that cites Mattel's ''"excessive focus on attempting to mass-market the line to a new generation of children rather than focusing on a safer collector-based approach"'' as the reason for the line's failure? Am I missing something or does that sound like the line tanked because it focused on selling toys to kids rather than what this article is railing against? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
: Guess who wrote the Wikipedia article. (Hint: It wasn't kids.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

:: The fact is the line failed, no one can say *exactly* why. There are reasons for both oppinions.

::'''Fact:''' The line DID court fans rather than kids in many ways. It didn't reinvent the boat but took the exact looks, exact characters, and in some cases even exact stories the fans clamored for and did them again, only better, prettier, smarter, and more "realisticly". In that respect it was pretty much EXACTLY what older fans of '80s properties clamor for, and said fans generally loved it. But for whatever reason it never caught on with '''actual kids''' in the way the simple, campy, primitive, bowlegged original did. So some see that and blame the line's failure on the older fan mentality.

::'''Also Fact:''' Mattel tried to sell the toyline the way they had Batman. I.E. A million goofy variations on He-man and Skelator (and one or two others) and everyone else was almost impossible to find or didn't get a figure at all. This was very much NOT what collectors wanted. Many blame it for the line's failure at retail, arguing that part of what made the original a hit where the huge variety of strange and different warriors and monsters that Mattel had left out this time in favor of flooding the shelves with He-man repaints and ill-concieved alterations (The entire wave of "samori repaints on stilts" is often pointed to, but are only one of many examples.) Some see this and blame an ill-concieved inapropriate retail stratagy aimed at marketing to kids having crippled the line's retail appeal.

::Personally I think there's some truth to BOTH. For whatever reason (timing, approach, luck,) the older fan oriented cartoon never clicked with the kiddies, '''AND''' the Batman-style retail stratagy was a bad choice for a MOTU type toyline. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

:::Yes, that was the feeling I got, that is there is no clear cut side to 'blame', and in this case, I think we should ditch the Masters of the Universe link, given the information there contradicts the slant of this article, and in any case it's not a clear cut case of 'it's all the collectors fault'. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Hrm, there's some legitimate thought there... but it ruins the G.I. Joe comparison. (Why catering to adult collectors and abandoning attempts at reinvention is a losing strategy in the long run necause ther old dudes die off and uyou're not bringing new fans in.)
::::For what it's worth, I meant from design and marketing- I agree that the actual toyline was schitzophrenic- alternating between a slavish adherence to the original designs and case assortments aimed at kida who weren't watching the cartoon.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::Here's an idea - how about one of you guys (who actually know about MOTU) edit the wikipedia article so it's more balanced, so we don't end up looking like idiots in this article? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that even in today's environment, the military has ''some'' pull to kids. Not so much the gay, gay fur-bikini barbarians. Sword-and-sorcery has some appeal nowadays, but mostly when it's very Japanesey kids-anime-style. (One could also note that the "big" Joe revival frankly isn't very big. It's pretty damn low-key, really, where He-Man was some major-league THIS WILL BE BIG!!! Lower expectations = greater chance of meeting and exceeding them.) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, I'd also imagine that production costs on the 25th anniversary Joe figs are pretty darn reasonable on Hasbro's bookkeeping. They've done similar lines for Star Wars for decades, so they know what they're doing.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
::I'm really annoyed that the GI Joe 25th line isn't available here, because Hasbro AU's last attempt to revive GI Joe in Australia totally tanked. If you can believe it, Toys R Us stores here languished under piles of unsold Cobra Trooper 6-packs, which, as I've read in forums, collectors were fighting over. They're not on pegs anymore, so I guess they've been shredded or incinerated by now.--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

So have we decided on this link yet? The Wikipedia link still contradicts the snarky joke link of this article. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
:It's always going to, because there will always, ''always'' be enough people who are going to make sure that the bullshit boogeyman "CASE RATIOS!! CASE RATIOS!!! KIDS WANTED ALL THOSE OBSCURE ONE-EPISODE GUYS AND USELESS MINOR VILLANS!!!!!" (while patently ignoring the fact that if you can't sell your ''two primary characters in the line'', maybe there's something wrong with your franchise, not case ratios... it'd be like if a Batman line couldn't sell toys of Batman) is squarely blamed for MOTU's failure. Frankly, I'd say just add a note to OUR article saying "ignore the bullshit about case ratios. Kids just didn't want a line about a boring gay man in a fur bikini." --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

::Ignoring your general disdain for He-man here, and even the whole case ratio issue, the fact remains that saying (as our snark does) that the newer He-man line "catered exclusively to older collectors" and that this caused its failure is both unprovable, AND very widely disputed. I'd say we should remove the link on those issues alone. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 15:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC) (-'''Edit:''' On a side-note, given the apparent success of the 25th ann. line and the coming movie, the critical G.I.Joe link in there may soon be meaninglessly out of date as well...)

:::And this is my point - we'll start looking like idiots who can't even get our facts or jokes straight if we insist on keeping these links. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I see Zac's point- but I think he's reacting to something that's not in the article. We're holding the MOTU reboot as an example of a line that abandoned all attempt at reinvention. Since there ''was'' not reinvention in the reboot line, at all, this should not be up for dispute.
:::We do not say that this is ''why'' the line failed. It probably ''was'', but we don't say that. We merely hold it up as an apporach that's probably unhealthy for Transformers to follow.
:::So to be really blunt-- I don't care what whiny fanboys may have edited Wikipedia to say in support of their view that the line was perfect and viable the way it was. '''A)''' That's masturbatory. '''B)''' It's not what this article is talking about, so it's simply not relevant. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::::But it says 'cater exclusively to the old-school collectors', which the line evidently did not do. In which case, regardless of if we are holding up as an approach that TF should not follow, it's not a good example in the context of the very joke-link, especially if it sends the reader to an article that disputes the joke. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::::In this context, that 'catering' refers to design, not case assortments. We're discussing ''reinvention''. One does not 'reinvent' case assortments! And in terms of designs, characters etc... MOTU ''did'' cater. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::More to the point- we're discussing changign the content on ''this'' page because highly dubious artument on Wikipedia disagrees with something ''we're not even saying here''.
:::::If Wikipedia had a bullshit argument we were actually refuting I might kinda understand this. But we're not! We are actually arguing about removing a link to an article because fanboys have jizzed across it in ways that contradict things our article ''doesn't'' say, but which 'might run through that same fanboy's mind as they read our article.'
:::::While '''I''' clearly feel the fanboy argument is specious-at-best '''it doesn't matter'''. We say it catered to collectors. That's it! '''It's just an example of one extreme a toyline can take.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

== Why? ==

Why is The [[Armada (franchise)|Armada]] series , [[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]] series, the [[The Transformers: The Movie|Movie]], and [[Exclusives]] listed here?[[User:Autobot Soundwave|Autobot Soundwave]] 19:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:Because fans reacted [[Trukk not munky|very]] [[Pokeformers|negatively]] to a lot of these things, which went on to become major successes. It's satire. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 19:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:Because they ruined Transformers forever, of course.--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 19:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Adding to the list ==

The Cliff Notes version: there's very little reason to.

The full version: Contrary to what [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER many people think], this is not a list of [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Ruined_FOREVER everything Transformers ever]. It is not even a list of everything Transformers that fans have ever complained about. It is a list of the relative handful of times that something ground-shaking and new has come along, something totally different from what's gone before, something that's not exactly like 1984, that causes people to complain that Transformers has irrevocably jumped the shark and begun sinking into an irreversible oblivion. All this doomsaying is then typically followed by the franchise surging back to life as the awful horrible new thing turns out to be a smashing success. Alternately, the horrible new thing quietly fades away while the franchise chugs along to the next new thing.

Thing is, anybody who's stuck with Transformers to this point is used to these reinventions. Perspective has grown long enough that plenty of fans now understand that anything they don't like will be gone in a year or two. Maybe I'm biased 'cause I only read the Allspark boards and they're fairly intelligent, but cries of RUINED FOREVER are increasingly rare these days.

I don't see why Drift is on the list. Plenty of people think he sucks, but nobody's claiming he's going to bring down the whole franchise. ''All Hail Megatron'' would be a better candidate, because people (including myself!) ''are'' claiming that IDW's whole storyline has been permanently destroyed by it. (You could also make a case for ''Energon'' ("bad anime"), ''Prime Directive'' ("MATURE ADULT XXX" or "Buckets of Blood" or "Pat Lee"), and/or Dreamwave ("The Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man", "Superstars", "Bankruptcy").

I don't see why stolen prototypes are on the list. Yeah, some of us make a fuss over them. Y'know why? Because HASBRO THEMSELVES HAS SAID THEY ARE A THREAT TO THEIR BUSINESS. There's no ridiculously overblown grasping-at-straws fandom absurdity to mock here.

And I'd need to see a LOT of linked posts before I'd accept ROTF on the list. I can't fathom someone having complaints about ROTF that didn't also apply to the first movie. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 12:10, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

:There are new complaints about ROTF - about [[Mudflap (ROTF)|these]] [[Skids (ROTF)|two]].--[[Special:Contributions/172.162.17.159|172.162.17.159]] 08:34, 10 August 2009 (EDT)