MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Drift (episode)

2010-07-18T03:20:28Z

173.71.105.23: /* Animation or technical errors */

{{disambig3|Drift}}

{{episode|
|series=Armada
|ep=46
|prev=Dash (episode)
|next=Portent
|title="Drift"
|japanese=運命 (しんじつ) - drift
|romaji=Unmei [Shinjitsu]
|translation=Fate (Truth)
|image=Drift.JPG
|caption=It's ''Armada''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Wolverine.
|production code=TF: A-46
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Ryō Motohira]]
|director=[[Hidehito Ueda]], [[Mitsuru Kawasaki]] (asst. dir.)
|animation studio=[[Actas]]
|airdate=[[October 10]], 2003 (English) [[November 14|14 November]] 2003 (Japanese)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''Everybody's hunt for Thrust leads to the revelation of the truth behind the Mini-Cons.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-1.jpg|left|175px|thumb|It's a very "Gundam" moment.]]
With Thrust gone, Galvatron orders Demolishor to find the traitorous [[Decepticon]] who stole both the Skyboom Shield and the Requiem Blaster. He disregards the [[Autobot|Autobots]]' activities and commands all his resources to hunt Thrust down. Wheeljack and Hot Shot are already on Thrust's trail.

Meanwhile, the Autobots are having difficulty getting the soldiers to withdraw from their fortifications. The soldiers are reluctant to let the threat of [[Unicron]] trivialize all the work they've done to try to take back the planet.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-2.jpg|right|175px|thumb|This is when fanfics happen.]]
Carlos walks in on Rad having a shower. Rad considers how much of a major difference in their lives it made to meet the Mini-Cons, and he speculates it might have been part of a larger design, based on a strange feeling he might have met High Wire in the past. Carlos dismisses the theory entirely.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-3.jpg|left|175px|thumb|I, too, hide from giant, feminine people with man voices.]]
Hot Shot and Wheeljack radio the news about Thrust to Optimus, and High Wire sees on the video that the tunnels the two Autobots are venturing through are the same tunnels where the Mini-Cons were created. After disconnecting, Hot Shot and Wheeljack also notice the suspicious organic nature of the caverns. Starscream also hounds Thrust on his own. The three kids, donning their color-coded space suits, also head to the same tunnels, guided by Rad's gut instinct.

The first to locate Thrust is Starscream, so Thrust offers Starscream a job under Unicron. Starscream declines the offer and then he hears Alexis call out his name, indicating the kids have arrived. Noticing the kids, Thrust points the Requiem Blaster at them, threatening to shoot. Starscream attempts to stop him, but Thrust turns back to him and fires a shot from the Requiem Blaster, blowing Starscream into the distance. Alexis calls out his name in fear and in the blaze of light from the blast...

:''A younger Rad awakens on his mother's lap in the family car. Rad inquires about where the Transformers are, but the parents dismiss his ramblings. High Wire's voice calls Rad's consciousness to another point in time.''

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-4.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Bradley's mom has got it goin' on.]]
:''In mysteriously colorful caves, the three kids see Hot Shot's body strapped to the terrain. Hot Shot doesn't identify the kids, but just mentions that the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells. He brings their attention to other Transformers, lying dormant and embedded into the walls of the mysterious cavern, even the Decepticons. As Rad deduces that he and his friends have gone millions of years into the past, Alexis is creeped out. Hot Shot's body begins to be absorbed into the cavern, and there's another flash of time.''

:''The three kids witness several Mini-Cons emerge from glowing eggs, knowing they're watching the Mini-Cons being created by Unicron. Rad sees High Wire, but when he tries to speak to his friend, all he receives is a mind's glimpse at Unicron. Rad, creating a kind of grandfather paradox, instructs the Mini-Cons to find their way to Earth. High Wire reads a few images of Earth from Rad's mind.''

Starscream's life is saved by time reversing just a bit as the kids' minds return to the present. Seizing the second chance, the Street Action Team combine and save Starscream's life, giving him a brief window to get close enough to be in no danger from the Requiem Blaster. An upwards shot alerts the two exploring Autobots to the location of the battle and brings the cavern down, letting Thrust get away while Starscream protects the children.

Once the debris from the cavern stops falling, Alexis thanks Starscream. He smiles warmly at her and takes off after Thrust, continuing his hunt. High Wire speaks with Rad, validating Rad's theory that he had met the Mini-Cons before meeting on Earth. Hot Shot and Wheeljack arrive and are astounded to hear what Hot Shot had told the kids millions of years before.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (4)
*[[Side Swipe (Armada)|Side Swipe]] (6)
*[[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] (7)
*[[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (8)
*[[Smokescreen (Armada)|Hoist]] (9)
*Autobot soldier (10)
*[[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]] (11)
*[[Laserbeak (Armada)|Laserbeak]] (23)

|c2=
*[[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] (1)
*[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (2)
*[[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (3)
*[[Wheeljack (Armada)|Wheeljack]] (5)
*Decepticon soldier #1 (16)
*[[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (17)
*Decepticon soldier #2 (22)
*[[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (26)

|c3=
*[[Carlos Lopez]] (12)
*[[Rad White]] (13)
*[[Alexis]] (18)
*[[Billy (Armada)|Billy]] (20)
*[[Fred (Armada)|Fred]] (21)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's mother]] (24)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's father]] (25)

|h4=[[Mini-Con]]s|c4=
*[[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]] (14)
*[[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (15)
*[[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]] (19)
*[[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]] (27)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Hoist''': Sacrifices or not, an order is an order. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Oh, really? Tsk. Then what about all the commands we've had up until now? We've followed them to the letter. How many soldiers do you think we sacrificed to keep these positions from the Decepticons? And now you want us to pull out? You want us to hand this place over to the enemy? All the battles up 'til now were just a waste? Why don't you explain THAT to me, huh? 
'''Scavenger''': It's an order from Optimus, our commander himself. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Hn, stupid. Autobots, get your gear together, we've been ordered to retreat. Round up the equipment, we're clearing out. 
'''Hoist''': This is ridiculous.
:—Dissension in the ranks.

"Be careful, Hot Shot! I almost bought the big one here!" 
"Aw, it's not too bad." ''[falls down hole]''
:—'''Wheeljack'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s warning goes ignored by '''Hot Shot''', to the latter's peril.

"Who would have thought the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells?"
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' spoils the show's big twist for anyone waiting to see it.

"So much for evolution, but one time we were told we could use them. But instead, we were the ones who were being used."
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' savors the irony.

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Micron Legend''===
===Animation or technical errors===
*When the kids see the dead Transformers in the alternate world, Optimus is correctly shown in his Cybertronian form (since he never came to Earth), but his chest is colored white instead of red. Megatron, meanwhile, is shown in his Cybertronian body in the long shot, but in the close up is drawn according to his Earth model.

===Trivia===
*The Autobot arguing with Hoist has [[Lander]]'s character model with a different color scheme.
*[[Metalhawk]]'s character model, minus the wings, turns up as one of the Decepticons searching for the kids.
*The scene with Hot Shot and the other Transformers, despite Rad's understanding they've gone into the past, makes more sense as having gone into an alternate-timeline present where he never interacted with High Wire in the next scene/on Earth, considering Hot Shot references the Mini-Cons as having turned on the Transformers, and if the Transformers were all dead, why were they active in the present, unless they had their memories erased and were reactivated, which would almost make sense considering the way Unicron functions but my god I've gone cross-eyed.
*This episode marks the first time Starscream and Alexis meet after he rejoined the Decepticons.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2003 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Vol:14 ([[Warner Bros.|Warner Music Video]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Micron Legend'' — Volume 12 ([[Columbia Music Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Season One: Part Two ([[Rhino Entertainment]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Germany.png|20px|Germany]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Volume Two ([[New KSM]]) — English and German audio.

[[Category:Armada episodes]]

Drift (episode)

2010-07-18T03:18:13Z

173.71.105.23: /* Animation or technical errors */

{{disambig3|Drift}}

{{episode|
|series=Armada
|ep=46
|prev=Dash (episode)
|next=Portent
|title="Drift"
|japanese=運命 (しんじつ) - drift
|romaji=Unmei [Shinjitsu]
|translation=Fate (Truth)
|image=Drift.JPG
|caption=It's ''Armada''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Wolverine.
|production code=TF: A-46
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Ryō Motohira]]
|director=[[Hidehito Ueda]], [[Mitsuru Kawasaki]] (asst. dir.)
|animation studio=[[Actas]]
|airdate=[[October 10]], 2003 (English) [[November 14|14 November]] 2003 (Japanese)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''Everybody's hunt for Thrust leads to the revelation of the truth behind the Mini-Cons.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-1.jpg|left|175px|thumb|It's a very "Gundam" moment.]]
With Thrust gone, Galvatron orders Demolishor to find the traitorous [[Decepticon]] who stole both the Skyboom Shield and the Requiem Blaster. He disregards the [[Autobot|Autobots]]' activities and commands all his resources to hunt Thrust down. Wheeljack and Hot Shot are already on Thrust's trail.

Meanwhile, the Autobots are having difficulty getting the soldiers to withdraw from their fortifications. The soldiers are reluctant to let the threat of [[Unicron]] trivialize all the work they've done to try to take back the planet.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-2.jpg|right|175px|thumb|This is when fanfics happen.]]
Carlos walks in on Rad having a shower. Rad considers how much of a major difference in their lives it made to meet the Mini-Cons, and he speculates it might have been part of a larger design, based on a strange feeling he might have met High Wire in the past. Carlos dismisses the theory entirely.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-3.jpg|left|175px|thumb|I, too, hide from giant, feminine people with man voices.]]
Hot Shot and Wheeljack radio the news about Thrust to Optimus, and High Wire sees on the video that the tunnels the two Autobots are venturing through are the same tunnels where the Mini-Cons were created. After disconnecting, Hot Shot and Wheeljack also notice the suspicious organic nature of the caverns. Starscream also hounds Thrust on his own. The three kids, donning their color-coded space suits, also head to the same tunnels, guided by Rad's gut instinct.

The first to locate Thrust is Starscream, so Thrust offers Starscream a job under Unicron. Starscream declines the offer and then he hears Alexis call out his name, indicating the kids have arrived. Noticing the kids, Thrust points the Requiem Blaster at them, threatening to shoot. Starscream attempts to stop him, but Thrust turns back to him and fires a shot from the Requiem Blaster, blowing Starscream into the distance. Alexis calls out his name in fear and in the blaze of light from the blast...

:''A younger Rad awakens on his mother's lap in the family car. Rad inquires about where the Transformers are, but the parents dismiss his ramblings. High Wire's voice calls Rad's consciousness to another point in time.''

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-4.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Bradley's mom has got it goin' on.]]
:''In mysteriously colorful caves, the three kids see Hot Shot's body strapped to the terrain. Hot Shot doesn't identify the kids, but just mentions that the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells. He brings their attention to other Transformers, lying dormant and embedded into the walls of the mysterious cavern, even the Decepticons. As Rad deduces that he and his friends have gone millions of years into the past, Alexis is creeped out. Hot Shot's body begins to be absorbed into the cavern, and there's another flash of time.''

:''The three kids witness several Mini-Cons emerge from glowing eggs, knowing they're watching the Mini-Cons being created by Unicron. Rad sees High Wire, but when he tries to speak to his friend, all he receives is a mind's glimpse at Unicron. Rad, creating a kind of grandfather paradox, instructs the Mini-Cons to find their way to Earth. High Wire reads a few images of Earth from Rad's mind.''

Starscream's life is saved by time reversing just a bit as the kids' minds return to the present. Seizing the second chance, the Street Action Team combine and save Starscream's life, giving him a brief window to get close enough to be in no danger from the Requiem Blaster. An upwards shot alerts the two exploring Autobots to the location of the battle and brings the cavern down, letting Thrust get away while Starscream protects the children.

Once the debris from the cavern stops falling, Alexis thanks Starscream. He smiles warmly at her and takes off after Thrust, continuing his hunt. High Wire speaks with Rad, validating Rad's theory that he had met the Mini-Cons before meeting on Earth. Hot Shot and Wheeljack arrive and are astounded to hear what Hot Shot had told the kids millions of years before.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (4)
*[[Side Swipe (Armada)|Side Swipe]] (6)
*[[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] (7)
*[[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (8)
*[[Smokescreen (Armada)|Hoist]] (9)
*Autobot soldier (10)
*[[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]] (11)
*[[Laserbeak (Armada)|Laserbeak]] (23)

|c2=
*[[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] (1)
*[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (2)
*[[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (3)
*[[Wheeljack (Armada)|Wheeljack]] (5)
*Decepticon soldier #1 (16)
*[[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (17)
*Decepticon soldier #2 (22)
*[[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (26)

|c3=
*[[Carlos Lopez]] (12)
*[[Rad White]] (13)
*[[Alexis]] (18)
*[[Billy (Armada)|Billy]] (20)
*[[Fred (Armada)|Fred]] (21)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's mother]] (24)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's father]] (25)

|h4=[[Mini-Con]]s|c4=
*[[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]] (14)
*[[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (15)
*[[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]] (19)
*[[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]] (27)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Hoist''': Sacrifices or not, an order is an order. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Oh, really? Tsk. Then what about all the commands we've had up until now? We've followed them to the letter. How many soldiers do you think we sacrificed to keep these positions from the Decepticons? And now you want us to pull out? You want us to hand this place over to the enemy? All the battles up 'til now were just a waste? Why don't you explain THAT to me, huh? 
'''Scavenger''': It's an order from Optimus, our commander himself. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Hn, stupid. Autobots, get your gear together, we've been ordered to retreat. Round up the equipment, we're clearing out. 
'''Hoist''': This is ridiculous.
:—Dissension in the ranks.

"Be careful, Hot Shot! I almost bought the big one here!" 
"Aw, it's not too bad." ''[falls down hole]''
:—'''Wheeljack'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s warning goes ignored by '''Hot Shot''', to the latter's peril.

"Who would have thought the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells?"
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' spoils the show's big twist for anyone waiting to see it.

"So much for evolution, but one time we were told we could use them. But instead, we were the ones who were being used."
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' savors the irony.

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Micron Legend''===
===Animation or technical errors===
*When the kids see the dead Transformers in the alternate world, Optimus is correctly shown in his Cybertronian form (since he never came to Earth), but his chest is colored white instead of red.

===Trivia===
*The Autobot arguing with Hoist has [[Lander]]'s character model with a different color scheme.
*[[Metalhawk]]'s character model, minus the wings, turns up as one of the Decepticons searching for the kids.
*The scene with Hot Shot and the other Transformers, despite Rad's understanding they've gone into the past, makes more sense as having gone into an alternate-timeline present where he never interacted with High Wire in the next scene/on Earth, considering Hot Shot references the Mini-Cons as having turned on the Transformers, and if the Transformers were all dead, why were they active in the present, unless they had their memories erased and were reactivated, which would almost make sense considering the way Unicron functions but my god I've gone cross-eyed.
*This episode marks the first time Starscream and Alexis meet after he rejoined the Decepticons.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2003 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Vol:14 ([[Warner Bros.|Warner Music Video]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Micron Legend'' — Volume 12 ([[Columbia Music Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Season One: Part Two ([[Rhino Entertainment]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Germany.png|20px|Germany]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Volume Two ([[New KSM]]) — English and German audio.

[[Category:Armada episodes]]

Drift (episode)

2010-07-18T02:56:23Z

173.71.105.23: /* Animation or technical errors */ this isn't an error, it's pretty obvious from the animation's fuzz and squigglyness during the first half of the sentence that there's a problem with the reception

{{disambig3|Drift}}

{{episode|
|series=Armada
|ep=46
|prev=Dash (episode)
|next=Portent
|title="Drift"
|japanese=運命 (しんじつ) - drift
|romaji=Unmei [Shinjitsu]
|translation=Fate (Truth)
|image=Drift.JPG
|caption=It's ''Armada''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Wolverine.
|production code=TF: A-46
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Ryō Motohira]]
|director=[[Hidehito Ueda]], [[Mitsuru Kawasaki]] (asst. dir.)
|animation studio=[[Actas]]
|airdate=[[October 10]], 2003 (English) [[November 14|14 November]] 2003 (Japanese)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''Everybody's hunt for Thrust leads to the revelation of the truth behind the Mini-Cons.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-1.jpg|left|175px|thumb|It's a very "Gundam" moment.]]
With Thrust gone, Galvatron orders Demolishor to find the traitorous [[Decepticon]] who stole both the Skyboom Shield and the Requiem Blaster. He disregards the [[Autobot|Autobots]]' activities and commands all his resources to hunt Thrust down. Wheeljack and Hot Shot are already on Thrust's trail.

Meanwhile, the Autobots are having difficulty getting the soldiers to withdraw from their fortifications. The soldiers are reluctant to let the threat of [[Unicron]] trivialize all the work they've done to try to take back the planet.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-2.jpg|right|175px|thumb|This is when fanfics happen.]]
Carlos walks in on Rad having a shower. Rad considers how much of a major difference in their lives it made to meet the Mini-Cons, and he speculates it might have been part of a larger design, based on a strange feeling he might have met High Wire in the past. Carlos dismisses the theory entirely.

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-3.jpg|left|175px|thumb|I, too, hide from giant, feminine people with man voices.]]
Hot Shot and Wheeljack radio the news about Thrust to Optimus, and High Wire sees on the video that the tunnels the two Autobots are venturing through are the same tunnels where the Mini-Cons were created. After disconnecting, Hot Shot and Wheeljack also notice the suspicious organic nature of the caverns. Starscream also hounds Thrust on his own. The three kids, donning their color-coded space suits, also head to the same tunnels, guided by Rad's gut instinct.

The first to locate Thrust is Starscream, so Thrust offers Starscream a job under Unicron. Starscream declines the offer and then he hears Alexis call out his name, indicating the kids have arrived. Noticing the kids, Thrust points the Requiem Blaster at them, threatening to shoot. Starscream attempts to stop him, but Thrust turns back to him and fires a shot from the Requiem Blaster, blowing Starscream into the distance. Alexis calls out his name in fear and in the blaze of light from the blast...

:''A younger Rad awakens on his mother's lap in the family car. Rad inquires about where the Transformers are, but the parents dismiss his ramblings. High Wire's voice calls Rad's consciousness to another point in time.''

[[Image:Screenshot-arm-47-4.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Bradley's mom has got it goin' on.]]
:''In mysteriously colorful caves, the three kids see Hot Shot's body strapped to the terrain. Hot Shot doesn't identify the kids, but just mentions that the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells. He brings their attention to other Transformers, lying dormant and embedded into the walls of the mysterious cavern, even the Decepticons. As Rad deduces that he and his friends have gone millions of years into the past, Alexis is creeped out. Hot Shot's body begins to be absorbed into the cavern, and there's another flash of time.''

:''The three kids witness several Mini-Cons emerge from glowing eggs, knowing they're watching the Mini-Cons being created by Unicron. Rad sees High Wire, but when he tries to speak to his friend, all he receives is a mind's glimpse at Unicron. Rad, creating a kind of grandfather paradox, instructs the Mini-Cons to find their way to Earth. High Wire reads a few images of Earth from Rad's mind.''

Starscream's life is saved by time reversing just a bit as the kids' minds return to the present. Seizing the second chance, the Street Action Team combine and save Starscream's life, giving him a brief window to get close enough to be in no danger from the Requiem Blaster. An upwards shot alerts the two exploring Autobots to the location of the battle and brings the cavern down, letting Thrust get away while Starscream protects the children.

Once the debris from the cavern stops falling, Alexis thanks Starscream. He smiles warmly at her and takes off after Thrust, continuing his hunt. High Wire speaks with Rad, validating Rad's theory that he had met the Mini-Cons before meeting on Earth. Hot Shot and Wheeljack arrive and are astounded to hear what Hot Shot had told the kids millions of years before.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (4)
*[[Side Swipe (Armada)|Side Swipe]] (6)
*[[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] (7)
*[[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (8)
*[[Smokescreen (Armada)|Hoist]] (9)
*Autobot soldier (10)
*[[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]] (11)
*[[Laserbeak (Armada)|Laserbeak]] (23)

|c2=
*[[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] (1)
*[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (2)
*[[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (3)
*[[Wheeljack (Armada)|Wheeljack]] (5)
*Decepticon soldier #1 (16)
*[[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (17)
*Decepticon soldier #2 (22)
*[[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (26)

|c3=
*[[Carlos Lopez]] (12)
*[[Rad White]] (13)
*[[Alexis]] (18)
*[[Billy (Armada)|Billy]] (20)
*[[Fred (Armada)|Fred]] (21)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's mother]] (24)
*[[Rad White#Associated_characters|Rad's father]] (25)

|h4=[[Mini-Con]]s|c4=
*[[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]] (14)
*[[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (15)
*[[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]] (19)
*[[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]] (27)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Hoist''': Sacrifices or not, an order is an order. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Oh, really? Tsk. Then what about all the commands we've had up until now? We've followed them to the letter. How many soldiers do you think we sacrificed to keep these positions from the Decepticons? And now you want us to pull out? You want us to hand this place over to the enemy? All the battles up 'til now were just a waste? Why don't you explain THAT to me, huh? 
'''Scavenger''': It's an order from Optimus, our commander himself. 
'''Generic Autobot''': Hn, stupid. Autobots, get your gear together, we've been ordered to retreat. Round up the equipment, we're clearing out. 
'''Hoist''': This is ridiculous.
:—Dissension in the ranks.

"Be careful, Hot Shot! I almost bought the big one here!" 
"Aw, it's not too bad." ''[falls down hole]''
:—'''Wheeljack'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s warning goes ignored by '''Hot Shot''', to the latter's peril.

"Who would have thought the Mini-Cons were created by Unicron's cells?"
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' spoils the show's big twist for anyone waiting to see it.

"So much for evolution, but one time we were told we could use them. But instead, we were the ones who were being used."
:—'''Past Hot Shot''' savors the irony.

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Micron Legend''===
===Animation or technical errors===

===Trivia===
*The Autobot arguing with Hoist has [[Lander]]'s character model with a different color scheme.
*[[Metalhawk]]'s character model, minus the wings, turns up as one of the Decepticons searching for the kids.
*The scene with Hot Shot and the other Transformers, despite Rad's understanding they've gone into the past, makes more sense as having gone into an alternate-timeline present where he never interacted with High Wire in the next scene/on Earth, considering Hot Shot references the Mini-Cons as having turned on the Transformers, and if the Transformers were all dead, why were they active in the present, unless they had their memories erased and were reactivated, which would almost make sense considering the way Unicron functions but my god I've gone cross-eyed.
*This episode marks the first time Starscream and Alexis meet after he rejoined the Decepticons.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2003 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Vol:14 ([[Warner Bros.|Warner Music Video]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Micron Legend'' — Volume 12 ([[Columbia Music Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Season One: Part Two ([[Rhino Entertainment]]) 
[[Image:Flag of Germany.png|20px|Germany]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Armada'' — Volume Two ([[New KSM]]) — English and German audio.

[[Category:Armada episodes]]

Talk:Prima

2010-07-11T20:35:31Z

173.71.105.23: /* Cartoon */

Is Prima pronounced 'Prime-uh' or 'Preem-ah'? -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 20:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
:I doubt there any official sources on pronunciation for this, but I'd go with "Prime-uh" given the general "Primus" connection from which this name is obviously derived.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

:Uh, I think Prima was the FIRST Matrix-bearer, according to the Creation Matrix. I don't think Primus counts as one. He's listed first because he IS the Matrix. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

So it is! I was thinking Primon came first.
:Primon is only ever mentioned in the Omega Point BotCon fiction. We're not really sure what his deal is, compared to Prima. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm feeling entirely too lazy to think up how to integrate it into the existing text, but it'd be important to mention that DK's "Ultimate Guide" book specifically states that Prima was the first Transformer of 'em all, accompanied by the panel from the G2 comic that showed the first TF emerging. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:Aaaand, I see Derik's made that point already elsewhere. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

== Cartoon ==

I don't see how the bot previously known as "Powerful Robot" can be the first Transformer. He was a pre-Transformer for one thing, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt that "the first Transformer" doesn't literally mean he could transform. But, as the article says, he "was created from the corpse of another robot" so he was created late in the game. By Quintessons. Unless it was actually the guy who was recycled into "Powerful Robot" who was Prima. In which case, his entry has to be changed to make that clear. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 02:26, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:Powerful Robot being Prima makes no damn sense at all. We see his creation, on screen, and it sure as hell wasn't as one of the original 13 Primus made way back before any Quintessons were around. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:29, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::[[Unicron|The G1 cartoon not aligning with later retcons is not a new thing.]] [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:32, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::I also really hate after-the-fact presumptions and limitations on what prehistoric TFs actually could do / were doing, and like to minimize them as much as possible. Prima was there now? Well, if you say so. Since he was all godly and shit, let's say he was on the astral plane guiding the construction of what would turn out to be his body--so it SEEMED like he was being built, but he really wasn't. This can explain the sequencing too. I don't enjoy bullshit-fu, but it is a defensive martial art. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 16:46, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::That is some interesting fanon there, but FFoD tells us/shows us that "Powerful Robot" was recycled from "generic assembly line guy". That isn't an after the fact presumption, it is what happened. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::There's nothing stopping them from coming up with an explanation along the lines of "this dude was imbued with Prima's essence after being recycled". But we're getting off on a tangent. Regardless of how little sense it may make, canon says it's Prima, so here we go. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:11, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::This is a very specific G1 cartoon retcon. I thought maybe there was some logic to it I wasn't seeing. Like maybe Prima was the guy pulled off the assembly line and his essence somehow survived being recycled or something. I guess not. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::''The point is'', when you involve divinities, you can handwave away any contradiction as divine intervention and they just have to lie there and take it. His essence was involved SOMEWHERE to keep the sequencing intact. It's "fanon," but since all of the story material depicting Prima as the 1st TF can't go around contradicting itself with him being the 2nd, there is going to have to be SOME response to it on the part of the reader, be it in terms of ignoring it utterly or some form of bullshit-fu. You know where I stand. And no, of course none of that goes in the articles. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::I did not know Prima was a "divinity". For a guy created by the Quintessons from a different dead guy then soon after effortlessly shot dead by Quintessons, I think "divinity" might be stretching it. Where exactly was he depicted as godly anyway? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:11, 11 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Have you read Forest Lee's multiversal explanation thing about The Fallen? The Thirteen are pretty much demigods.

== Optimus Prime's ancestor ==

I only know it has been confirmed that Optimus Prime's ancestor has bee assigned to Prima. But I think we need to write down a source in Note section just like how we mention AllSpark Almanac II declared "Powerful Robot" is Prima via an Ask Vector Prime entry. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:44, 2 July 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Sideways (Armada)

2010-07-07T02:09:37Z

173.71.105.23: /* Next Revamp */

==Main image==
Hey, wasn't there a different Sideways profile pic at some point? One that wasn't just his head again, which is really redundant with the headshot of him just a further bit down the page? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: Fixed! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: I changed it earlier because the original pic there was total crap and tiny. Oddly enough I was going to use the Armada cardart (which has exactly the same pic you used), but I was warned against it for some reason. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

==RID Sideways = Armada Sideways==
I'm gonan throw out this interesting nugget-- RiD Sideways is the same character. Even JAPAN thinks so. Their Robotmasters page lists Sideways 1st appearance as RiD (or was it CR? It's been awhile, and it's moot for the purposes of this Wiki.) The POINT is, Armada is the SECOND toyline Sideways/Doubleface appeared in, not the first.

I noticed this as well. Also, I noticed that [[Axer]]`s page claims that he is the '''ONLY''' character to physically cross over from continuity to continuity. Based on the information from the article this is not likely true. Any objections?--[[User:Autobotx1010|Autobotx1010]] 19:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

:Okay, Sideway's page does indeed already say that R.I.D. sideways is the same person, and ditto with the Robot masters version. Scroll down, it's all there in the toy section. Sideways doesn't appear in the fiction for R.I.D., just the toy line, so only the toy was mentioned.
:Plus, Axer's page says he's the ''first'' character to cross continuity, not "only."
:You're joining an argument that is seventeen months old. It's been resolved for a while. --[[User:Atomic spaceman|Atomic spaceman]] 21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you assume that RM Sideways is the same character as Armada Sideways (a fair assumption) then it logically follows that RiD Sideways probably is as well. (he's no further removed from the Unicron Trilogy than is the Sideways in Robotmasters version of G1.) The fact that RiD sideway's packaging-partnet was another continuity-hopper lends credibility to this approach-- but the Takara stance that he 1st appeared in the line before Armada is the real clincher for me.

Disagreement? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I had the RiD toy listed on this page in the beginning, but thought instead to just suggest on both pages that they are probably the same guy. Believe me, I agree with you. But if there's enough support, back in here the RiD version goes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

RID Sideways was not a Japanese release. RID has no ties to Armada, either.
It's a name reuse, as the reused bio for RID Sideways was saw in Armada does not even relfect the same character. A ninja? Don't think so. RID Sideways was also an Autobot hero. Totally seperate character. Also want to point out that the character is named Doubleface in Japan, severing the ties to any "Sideways" name use for a toy that is US only.
--Bodycount

Hrm. Well for [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/32a177ffd616f66a reference] here's my post on the subject back in the day exploring the issue- the Takara site said CR BTW, though I don't have a link. (It's probably still up, but I have no idea where Takara's RM site is, so...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Bodycount- read the damn post I linked to.
*Takara says it's the same character, even with all the renaming.
*Though it didn't come through int he cartoon, Armada Sideways WAS suppsoedly a ninja
*Eat me
:-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Takara also recognized Galaxy Force as part of the Micron Trilogy and lists the characters as the same ones from the previous two shows. Do you also accept that idea? Oh, and I would eat you, but I don't think I can fit that much geek into my stomach.

Man, 2005 used to be the FUTURE, now it's already "back in the day." Anyway, I would agree with Derik the RiD Sideways is most likely the same guy. Unicron can dimension jump after all, and have his servants do the same. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, crap, Derik! I totally forgot about Takara listing RiD Sideways as RM Doubleface's first toy. Thanks for reminding me, and that's certainly enough to join the two probably-the-same guys into the same page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

...was this not in the first paragraph on the talk page? Admittedly, the usenet post was SPELLCHECKED, and thus much easier to understand. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I did edit this page last night, mostly at first I corrected the spelling on the RM section, then added a basic outline for RiD Sideways since there was nothing there when I got here, unaware of the connection between UT and RiD Sideways. However, I understand that somehow the RM Doubleface section got attributed to me. I never claimed that Doubleface was a different character, I just fixed some spelling errors, and I, like most fans, didn't know exactly what the connection was between RiD and Armada Sideways. I am not that useless. -- 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:And who are you, anyway? (I only bring it up because your identity is an important part of your statement here.)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

All this fussin' and fightin' last year when someone could've just looked up Hasbro's online bio for Armada Sideways and seen that it's almost a word-for-word lift from RiD Sideways. Same tech spec numbers, too.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 16:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

:Hasbro was just emerging from their steal-big-chunks-of-bios-from-old-bios phase at the time these were published. While strong evidence-in-favor (and admittedly we did overlook it) I doubt that it would have been considered decisive. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Turncoats ==

I think Sideways should retain the turncoat category, his 'actual alliance' being to Unicron nonwithstanding. If I look int he Turncoat category, i expect to see characters who've switched sides, and that's Sideways. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:He didn't really switch sides. He was working for Unicron the entire time, and that job has him ''posing'' as both an Autobot and a Decepticon. If that's being a turncoat, then we need to put Punch, Armada Jetfire and Armada Scavenger in there as well, because they were also Decepticons at some point. Imagine three factions, A, B and C. If a guy from side A goes undercover as a B and later "betrayes" be and "becomes" a C, his true alligence is still with A, as he never was actually a B or C anyway. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

::And all those American soldiers who went and fight for the British weren't turncoats either- because that's where their loyalties always lay?
::That's the ''origin of the term''.
::I realize there's a difference between a turncoat and a double-agent... but sideways seems like he belongs in both somehow. :p Armada thrust, I assume, is a turncoat? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Uh, if Americans were fighting for the British in the American Revolution, then I don't see how their allegiance wasn't to Britain instead of America. I know you like to be incoherent, Derik, but come on now. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 23:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

== Bad Luck ==

In Transformers Cybertron Sideways had alot of bad luck. IG he fell into alot of traps.

Yes, yes he did. THAT made me laugh like I was 10. Which I'm not. Oh, and sign your posts, for the love of [[Primus]]. [[User:BUMBLEBEE|The 'Bee :)]] 19:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

== RiD Art? ==

I wince a little to even ask but... does any art of his RiD incarnation exist? --Some jerk who didn't sign his name!
: Nope! RID stuff didn't have packaging art, just retouched toy photography. So since that version never got any fiction, d'oh well. Which is just as well, since the Armada guy probably belongs up there anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:01, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== RM Section ==

The Robotmasters section has this note;
{{note|In this continuity family, the character is known as "Doubleface," which is one of his Japanese names. Since Robot Masters is a Japanese franchise with no English-language equivalent, we do not use the English name "Sideways" in this section.}}
...huh? We're not using English names for characters that ''have them'' because the fiction was published in Japan? That seems not-right. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:I added that note to account for the way the section was already written, under the assumption that it was written correctly. I have no strong feelings on the matter. '''Edit:''' Okay, I've got some feelings now! I'm thinking you're right, Derik, on the logic that if we use "Doubleface" for the RM section, then we would also need to use "Convoy," "Beast Convoy," etc. I think the reason the section was written the way it was is that the author was preserving a veneer of ambiguity over the character, noting that he only CALLED himself by this particular name, for whatever value you choose to give that. But at this point is there any reason to cast that doubt? I don't know RM well enough to say for sure, but the discussion above and what I've gathered about the nature of RM suggest to me that there's no good reason to treat him differently than all of the other old-characters-in-new-bodies that are RM's stock in trade. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:28, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:: I wrote the section using "Doubleface" because that fiction has no English-language equivalent. I'm not super-attached to using his Japanese name there. I just thought it might be appropriate. Part of the reason is that we call his toy "Doubleface" in the respective toy section. We don't "translate" that into his English name, so it felt weird doing it for Robot Masters. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The Fiction and Toy sections have different naming rules, though (or so I'd gathered). Each individual toy is labeled as whatever is on its packaging, period. But for fiction, we homogenize as much as possible (hence calling RM Convoy "Optimus Prime"). So.... yeah, I'm going to change that section. Also, while I'm at it - ''Robot Masters'' isn't its own continuity family, is it? The fiction is pretty sparsely documented here, but what I've been able to scrounge up says it's in some G1 universe or other. Characters are just warping like crazy from across time and space to a G1 Earth in the year 2004. So I'm going to change the continuity-family label too. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, RM definitely isn't its own continuity family. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:42, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The name change is especially bothersome to me here because... RM Doubleface is the toy that explicitly established that all the Doublefaces were the same character. "This guy first appeared in RiD."
:::While on the subject... I thought that Cybertron Sideways was actually an AU version of Armada sideways or something... isn't Planet X actually from a parallel universe? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:46, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::No, Ask Vector Prime makes it clear he is the same guy. He just happens to be from a parallel dimension, originally. Or... well, wait. Did the Planet X attack happen before or after Gigantian got moved to that parallel dimension? Eh. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:48, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Oh, that makes sense, I guess. Assuming he was in the RiD universe "before" armada (and he'd have to be, his fiction is a straight line afterward) there's really no reason the Armadaverse has to be his "home" universe.
:::::...I feel like this might benefit from an "Origins" section explaining that unlike other characters, this fiction section is all the same iteration of the same guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'm working one up right now, though I'm putting it in "Notes". You can do as you wish with it when I'm done. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That's good to-- possibly a better way of presenting it too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

==TV Magazine?==
There was a Robotmasters story featured in TV Magazine as well? Anyone have scans? [[User:Lightsyderthe2nd|Lightsyderthe2nd]] 10:05, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

==(RID)?==

Why isn't it Sideways (Armada)? Because he's more prominent in the Unicron Trilogy, and if I recall RID Sideways was a toy only guy. [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 15:01, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
:Because the RID Sideways toy was later confirmed to be the same character as Armada Sideways. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:31, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::Gearshift isn't contesting that point. He knows they're the same guy; he wants to know why we're not using the most intuitively ''prominent'' identifier. The answer - and I know we had a discussion about this article's title somewhere; I think it got lost in the crash - is that we decide what to use for a disambiguation-parenthetical by starting with [[:Help:Disambiguation#Disambiguation suffixes|one simple rule]]: the first franchise the character appeared in. Sideways appeared in RID first, and there are no other RID Sidewayses. So that's that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Just to be clear, if e-hobby were to retroactively decide that one of the seekers from MtMtE was, in fact, the same guy, Sideways, we'd rename him Sideways (G1), right? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:55, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::No, because he was RID and Armada and Cybertron before he was G1. Actually, he already DOES exist in the G1 timeline, thanks to Robot Masters. This is an area we go real-world by, not in-fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:23, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::But I thought the confirmation that RID Sideways was the same as Armada Sideways came after Armada ended. So, how would that be any different? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:32, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::His RiD bio was written to mesh with the upcoming Armada character... he was ''always'' intended to be the same guy. We just didn't get it ''explicitly'' stated until Robotmasters.
::::::And I'm not sure Siph is right here. If we were to get ''a'' Seeker named Sideways who ''was'' this same guy and showed up in G1 in new fiction, then he'd still be Sideways (RiD). But if the black seeker in MtMtE (you only see his shoulder and head, he's hiding like Waldo!) was to to be ''revealed'' to be this same Sideways, then I think he'd move to "Sideways (G1)" because the G1 cartoon would be his earliest chronological appearance.
::::::@Gearshift... IIRC, in early 2008 we constructed a fully-thought-out justification why it would be consistent with our notability guidelines (we have them, they just '''very rarely''' come into play) why it would make sense to keep Sideways at "Sideways (Armada)" if we ever got a second character with his name.
::::::And then then [[Sideways (ROTF)]] was announced, the article just got moved to "Sideways (RID)" with very little discussion, and almost no objection. (I'm not quite sure why, but I speculate that Animated's flogging of just-like-G1-but-not characters combined with the increasing number of continuity-jumping characters just eroded a lot of the resistance people had to using the 'proper' disambig.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:42, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Actually, even if a black G1 Seeker was revealed to be the same guy, he still would be Sideways RID, since we established that toy releases take precedence in terms of first franchise. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:50, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I'm blanking, could you cite me an example? (Wing Dagger type situations don't count.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:52, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::[[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based]] --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:59, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::OK, but what if there was G1 fiction that repurposed an existing G1 toy, say Doubleclouder, as the same old lovable Sideways? Then would we move him to Sideways (G1) since the first toy of him was in the G1 line? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:49, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::''My'' understanding would be no, since he was never officially released as that toy, and the toys still take precedence. The fiction only counts if there's no official toy to work from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:09, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::: Fair. But if some new fiction retroactively made, say Beast Wars Megatron the same character as Go-Bots Megatron, then we'd move Megatron (BW) to Megatron (G2) since that that would be an exactly analogous situation to Sideways. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:39, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Probably the article would be at "Doubleclouder" with the "Sideways (RID)" stuff moved there. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:43, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't think Jeysie was suggesting that he ''was'' Doubleclouder... rather than the DC toy was repurposed-within-the-same-continuity-family to represent two separate characters, like the G2 Cyberjets Air Raid and Aero Raid.
:::::::::::If a Japanese guidebook revealed no-appearances G2 Go-bot "Double Clutch (G2)" to be [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4a__-u6czw#t=4m20s Sandstorm's unnamed friend from Fight or Flee], we'd move it to "Double Clutch (G1)" with no real debate-- the character was around by that name in G1. It's that simple, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:00, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::''"Beginning. Middle. End. Facts. Details. Condense. Plot. Tell it."'' ~'''Agent Simmons''' Yay or nay to the idea of a move? [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 06:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Nay, he was an RID toy first. For the rationale, read the page I linked to. (Basically, I made the same sort of argument you did in your edit summary, and we hashed it out and realized that just doesn't work logistically after all.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:10, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

See, I don't get that at all, Jeysie. With Sideways, we've got basically two different characters with the same name in two different franchises. A third franchise comes along and declares them to be the same character, so we decide to disambig by the earliest chronological toy. (Authorial intent on those original tech specs is dubious, since many times name reuse comes with similar phraseology across franchises with no intent that the toy represents the same character.) If we think that this is enough to move the disambiguation to the first toy, then that should be the rule for all characters retroactively declared to be the same guy. If BW Megatron is declared cannonically to have been the same dude as Go-Bots Megatron from the earlier G2 franchise, then we should move him to Megatron (G2).

A corollary to this is that, since we disambig by the TOY of first franchise for characters who are retroactively the same across timelines, if we need to disambig Unicron for whatever reason he'll be Unicron (Armada). (OH, I'm so tempted to actually stick in a non-Unicron character named Unicron into one of my books just to see that argument.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:20, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:Personally, I don't like that Robot Masters can retcon the Armada continuity. I think that ''in the Robot Masters continuity'', RID Sideways = Armada Sideways, but ''in the Armada continuity,'' RID Sideways ≠ Armada Sideways. Saying RID Axer came from G1 is different, because it isn't really retconning any G1 fiction except to say that once all the G1 fiction was over with, he hopped into the RID universe. Having said that, I think RID is a little bit of an exception. The toyline was sort of used as a catch-all "Universe"-type concept with a loose regard to continuity. It has "Air Attack Optimus Primal" for example. He is taken as the Optimus Primal from the Beast Machines era. If he is the Optimus Primal his bio draws RID into the Beast Wars's history.
:As for your Megatron example, Go-Bots Megatron is G1 Megatron. The bio says Megatron took this new car altmode so Megatron (BW) would move to Megatron (G1). Your Unicron example shows why the toy should not necessarily take precedence. It should be the first real-world appearance, be it toy or fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:48, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::Thing is... they're not really all that different as characters. The RID and Armada bios are if not 1:1 exact, they're so damn close they might as well be. This was a source of confusion as soon as Sideways's Armada bio was revealed, and it's possible that the production scheduling meant Armada Sideways was developed first despite being released second. And we were still kind of not used to the whole "multiverse" thing yet. At any rate, I frankly advise against trying to nail down a standard for bizarre hypotheticals. Ours is a fucked-up franchise, and trying to predict how to handle the next strange once-in-a-lifetime mutation is really an exercise in futility. A lot of what we do really does have to fall under a case-by-case with the hope that general guidelines will suffice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Hey, that's the answer I wanted all along - let's go case-by-case and let common sense prevail. That being the case, wouldn't the 'common sense' answer be to move Sideways back to Armada, which is where the bulk of his characterization comes from and where most fans know him from? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:23, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::I think any fan who really knows about Sideways in Armada must by definition be hardcore enough to have known he was the RID character already. I mean, he's a second-stringer from a cartoon most people hated from 7 years ago. With that in mind, I think the risk of actually confusing anybody is very, very slight. Besides, part of Sideways' characterization prominently featured in our article is that "self-sufficient ninja" shtick, which really was introduced in RID, and there is simply no way to NOT have the article introduction mention his RID incarnation. So once we've acknowledged it, what's wrong with keeping it in his name? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 13:42, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:This whole "toys first" thing is total nonsense. It stems from the discussion Jeysie linked to (thanks for saving it! Do you have the other pieces too? We need those back here...), where Siph was (over)reacting to Jeysie's claim that the toys didn't really matter at ''all.'' In the end, what actually matters is FRANCHISE, which applies to BOTH TOYS AND FICTION. Jim, your example is a perfect case: If we ever needed to disambiguate [[Unicron]], making him "Unicron (Armada)" because that was the franchise that first sold him as a toy is ridiculous. He was created as a character in the 1986 movie, which was released under the G1 franchise. THAT'S his franchise of origin.
:Your questioning of the (RID) on this article is also very keen: What does "origin" mean when you involve cross-franchise retconning? I don't have a clear answer, though I'm on the side of (RID) because the retcon was such a very short leap, due to the nontrivially-similar bios and the association the RID character had with [[Axer|another dimension-hopper]] from the get-go. This is admittedly a judgement call, and the hypothetical example of retconning a G1 character who has no inherent connection (the "black Seeker") into this Sideways would be a much more challenging case. Good thing we don't have to deal with it yet!
:Though I'm not as dismissive of "bizarre hypotheticals" as Siph is. The idea of putting a parenthetical on this article was at one point a hypothetical that we had a valuable discussion around. I think Derik is misremembering the outcome of that; I recall it ending with more support for (RID), which I thought was why the actual move was so uncontroversial.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::There's the [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Insecticon Swarm]] talk page and the [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|main notes]], if that's what you mean by "other parts".
::And, what do you mean "toys first thing is total nonsense"? I distinctly remember that I came down on the side of determining franchise of origin by the fiction, everyone yelled at me, we had the whole discussion, and determined that remaining with determining franchise of origin via the toys was the best way to handle it.
::If people suddenly start changing to the reverse and taking up my initial argument of determining franchise by the fiction, I swear I'm gonna kick y'all out of irritation until you make up your freakin' minds. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:40, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::As I said in that discussion, the toys-vs.-fiction thing is a false dichotomy. Take the toys entirely out of the equation, and there are still franchises. Every piece of TF fiction - be it comic, TV show, book, whatever - is released with some kind of franchise-identifier (usually the logo on the cover or in the intro sequence). It doesn't matter HOW a character appears first, whether it's a toy or a drawing on a page or a 3D rendering onscreen; what matters is what franchise that appearance is under.
:::'''Edit:''' Oh, and yeah, those are exactly the "other pieces" I mean. Those totally need to be reincorporated into the wiki; in total, they're pretty much the Debate To End All Debates on this topic.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:51, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Apparently they're not, seeing as how after all that, there's people here arguing the same stance I initially got griped at for. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:58, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Which is exactly why we need to have those discussions back on here, so we can point people to them and go, "There. THAT'S why." - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:27, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::I have nothing to add to this other than I've always considered Sideways to be an Armada character, and I think, despite what Thy says, one of the stand out characters of the series. I recall people going "HOLY CRAP NO WAY!" back when forums used to have play-by-play threads for Armada and we watched [[Detection]]. Basically, if TF fans hear the name Sideways, they think "the purple motorcycle guy from Transformers Armada". --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:54, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::I just want to point out for clarification... Robotmasters didn't ''retcon'' Rid Sideways into being Armada Sideways... RM ''confirmed'' it, having been hinted at before (and there being discussion to that effect on att.)
::Sideways was part of a 2-pack... the other guy was Axer, whose bio showed that he was G1 Axer and he'd been accidentally transported into the RiD-verse. Obviously Sideways was their joke... making him an ''upcoming'' character, so the two pack was ''both'' guys from other universes, one old, one new.
::(Left we forget, in 2002 when they were released, a lot of the fandom was operating on the idea that Transformers was a 'mythology', where everything was part of one big loose universe that kinda-sorta fit with everything else, just not all at once. Axer being transported from one reality to another was the first example of the Transofrmers Multiverse EVER, a concept that was being developed for Armada.)
::I also don't think we disambigh characters by toylines... we disambig the, by franchise. It's just that toyline have an ''almost'' 1:1 relatioship with franchises. (which in turn have a .9:1 relationship with the continuity family) that screws people up.
::If we used the ''toyline'', we'd have "Blurr (Universe)" or "Blurr (Universe 2008)" instead of "Blurr (Shattered Glass)". -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:21, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Er, I had been under the impression that Shattered Glass was its own separate toy franchise, insofar that the BotCon toys were released under that label.
:::But in any case, I'm more than just a little frustrated that we spent all that time determining that we ''do'' in fact disambiguate characters by toy franchise—including my getting ''insulted'' by various people for even contemplating disambiguating by fiction—and now folks are taking the opposite standpoint. WTF. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'm getting frustrated that you keep misrepresenting the current rule as being "toy-based." It's NOT. It's whatever came first, whether it's toy OR fiction. Yes, some people argued against you in a toy-based way, but I don't think they represent the sum total of all arguments against your point of view. For a while, you were attempting to do away with the franchise-of-origin rule entirely, in favor of whatever term (franchise, continuity family, series, etc.) was most representative of the scope of each particular character's appearances. And THAT'S the kind of thing that I saw most people balking at, since it invited debate on almost every disambiguated page we have. "One simple rule" was what the real dogpiling was all about, and the toys-vs.-fiction thing was totally secondary to that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::'''Yes''', it is. The entire '''point''' of the discussion was disambiguating by toys vs. disambiguating by fiction. And we specifically agreed at one point as part of the examples that toy appearances take precedence! It's all ''there'' in the discussions.
:::::But whatever. I just find it ironically irritating that I had a standpoint, everyone told me it was wrong, I was convinced it was wrong (by '''you''', I might add) and changed to agreeing with everyone else... and now I'm wrong again because people are doing a 180 from the standpoint they reached last time.
:::::Whatever, it's pretty obvious I can't win. I'm just going to bow out before I have to deal with being insulted again even though I'm trying to advocate the same freakin' conclusion we reached the last time this came up. Wish people could make up their damn minds on things and stick to it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::SG Blurr was released in the ''Timeines'' toyline. And the SG guys that didn't have to be disambiguated were at "(Timelines)" till people complained about having to remember which characters get "(Shattered Glass)" and which don't. (Why are we using "Shattered Glass", anyway? Wouldn't it be more consistent for us to use "SG"?) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::: I gotta agree with Interrobang, SG seems like a more sensible disambiguation than the entire phrase.
::::: Jeysie, rereading the link you posted, I don't really see a clear consensus for any position. Maybe I'm just not reading closely enough. Certainly, franchise of origin (be it toy or fiction or something else) seems like the most sensible choice to me, if only to avoid the Unicron (Armada) example above.
::::: Derik, I think it's inaccurate of you to state, unambiguously, that Axer and Sideways were intended to both be dimension hopping characters from the get-go. A mention of a black hole does not automatically mean a continuity-hopping character. It's a fun inference to draw, but until Robot Masters confirmed it all we had was fanon. (I'll point out that many bios echo elements of earlier incarnations of characters from other continuities. The earliest bios for Optimus Primal and BW Megatron seem to imply that they were the same characters as G1 Prime & Megatron, maybe we should combine those articles. Oh, and Optimus Prime in G1 was seen entering a black hole to find Nucleon ... maybe Armada Optimus Prime is the same guy? Heck, wasn't RID Megatron specifically from a dimensional rift? Let's fanon out who HE was supposed to be! )
::::: Finally, I'm with FFN, Sideways was a stand-out character from Armada. I think it's pretty easy to be a fan of his without knowing that there was a toy-only character of his with a similar bio that was later retconned into the same guy by a Japanese franchise. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::I was thinking the other day that (SG) would have made more sense. Not sure it's worth having to move 100+ articles at this point, though.
::::::And, I was pretty much the only one who thought that using the fiction as a basis for origin was a good idea... everyone else (who took the time to comment, anyway... if there's people who agreed with me, they couldn't be fussed to actually say anything at the time) was ''quite'' clear on stating they thought I was nuts. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:53, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::May as well do it now, before it becomes 200. Besides, there will surely be some SG Animated or RID or UT at some point, so we'll probably be changing them all anyway. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If we are going to move them, we'd be best off having Derik's bot do it, I think, if it can be tweaked for that purpose. Especially since we'd need to tag all of the moved talk page redirects to be deleted, and change all links, and... *groan*
::::::::But I'm honestly not sure we'd ever need to do it. There won't be an SG UT, per se, because there's already UT characters in the existing SGverse, and I can't see there ever being an official SG Animated or Movie. (I got the feeling that once the existing SG storyline plays out, that'll pretty much be it, seeing as how it'd be a couple years old at that point, at least.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:39, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::::Jim, to your comment that there was no "clear consensus for any opinion"... Skimming over the links, it looks like we're still missing the heart of the discussion. The debate started at [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Swarm (G1)]], migrated to [[Help talk:Disambiguation]], and ended with [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Jeysie's Sandbox]] (and accompanying [[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Talk page]]). As you can see, we're still missing Talk:Disambiguation, which is where the debate truly became epic. Believe it or not, Talk:Swarm (G1) was only the warmup. And by the time the Sandbox was made, most of the participants had petered out. In the meantime, I distinctly remember a violent pileup in the middle, where it seemed like every damn editor had jumped in. I recall a certain viewpoint being supreme, but obviously Jeysie recalls differently. Please tell me there's a cached version somewhere out there.....? It would be a damn shame for all that butt-hurt to vanish into the ether, dooming us to repeat it again someday. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:13, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::...I don't remember there ever being any discussion on "Help:Disambiguation". The "big epic discussion" took place on Swarm and my Sandbox talk as far as I know. At least, those were the only parts of the discussion ''I'' personally took part in. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On your copy of Talk:Insecticon swarm, there's a note right above the "Merge to Insecticon (G1)" section that says, "Due to the size and scope of this debate, it is recommended further discussion be taken to Help talk:Disambiguation." I swear to you on the grave of my mother's camel and my uncle's goat and even my sister's donkeys that the discussion WAS taken there, and you were involved in it, and that's where it truly got hairy. That was where I suggested the idea of doing a sandbox in the first place. (Note that the idea had not been mentioned in the Swarm-page discussion.) It was basically more of the same, but by the end there were people totally coming out of the woodwork to defend the status quo. Hooper called us all retards... is any of this ringing a bell? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:26, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, I remember the being insulted and everyone disagreeing with me part, but I had thought that took place on one of those two pages. I remember making the Sandbox because of the Swarm discussion, not there being an interim thing. In any case, the only cache for any Disambiguation discussion page is "Transformers Wiki talk:Disambiguation" with Steve-O saying it should be deleted since we already had "Help:Disambiguation", so, yeah. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:42, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::: Leaving hurt feelings and bruised egos aside, having an argument once doesn't invalidate the need to revisit those conclusions from time to time, as the franchise (and our understanding of it) evolves. I think that disambiguating by the franchise of origin, be it from a toy or from the fiction, is a generally sound policy. Is that agreed? (The corner cases are those instances where retcons 'move up' the francise of origin, but I think understanding the general case first is a good move.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In this case, this is '''at least''' our fourth or fifth go-round on this subject.
:::::::::::That's good though, because the the situation keeps changing. Back when we were first having it, disambigs were fairly clear-cut. You have (G1), (BW) etc. There was very little name duplication withint he G1 franchise. But that's changing. We're getting a lot more toys issues within G1, so now it's not un-common to see G1 guys disambig'd (Universe) or (Timelines). (Both disambigs I loathe, BTW, because Univerrse and Timelines both have toys ftrom non-G1 continuity families.) As the problem gets more complicated, we need to revisit our assumptions from time to time.
:::::::::::My only input into thisdiscussion... I'm against (SG) for Shattered Glass guys. As there is a not-insignificant chance we'll eventually get a Shattered Glsass Movieverse (or something... Wyatt said he wished he'd gotten to do a SG Animated ep...) I think we are ''far'' mroe likely to end up moving these articles to "(Shattered G1)." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:51, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::"(Shattered Glass)" does not make the articles immune from that problem, and we shouldn't be doing policies on "Maybe!" ("(SG G1)". Or "(Primax-)" if we're feeling hilariously dorky.)[[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:20, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::: I disagree. Maybe is a great reason to make changes. Forward looking changes make our lives easier. I think SG G1 would be a much better disambig than Shattered Glass. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:27, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: The weird thing about (SG G1) is... on the one hand, technically it is, since it's in Primax. On the other hand, we've got the likes of Will, Rick, Demolisher, and Dropshot in there. On the gripping hand, it's not like SG doesn't defy every other attempt to apply standard rules to it without there being utter weirdness (I'm reminded of the line on Continuity Family: "It is entirely possible for a universe to be exactly 50% 'Robots in Disguise' and 50% 'Armada', defying categorization.").
:::::::::::::: I'd still almost want to just leave it at (SG) and just have (SG Movie) or (SG Animated) if it comes up. (Although I admit I don't think it will... it seems like by the time the current SG storyline finishes, FunPub would be moving on to something else. Much to my complete sadness, admittedly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:26, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Yeah, it's nice to have a backup plan, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now, all we need is a single parenthetical for "Shattered Glass", period. The only reason I see for spelling it out is the assumption that most people wouldn't know what "SG" stands for... but when has that [[Ultra Magnus (Universe Two-Pack)|stopped]] [[Sandstorm (OC)|us]] [[Bombshock (ROC)|before]]? I vote for "(SG)". - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:12, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I vote for (SG) as well, but we should really move this to [[Shattered Glass (franchise)]], I think. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:19, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

=Talk:Sideways (ROTF)=
Shouldn't this go to [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]]? After all he is a dimension-hopper so this might be one and the same guy. After all the movie Fallen is also in the artice of the G1 Fallen, since they might be the same guy.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 13:40, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

== Variation? ==

Should the more metallic variation be mentioned?

:What more metalic version? [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 05:14, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::The japanese version is supposed to have a darker. more metallic version that supposedly made it over here in some cases. [[User:Cliffjumper prime|Cliffjumper prime]] 01:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== edit ==

I removed a part from the portion about the notches in the final toy. The poster seemed to be under the impression they're meant to clip into the triangular pieces on the hood. They are however, intended to clip onto the red square bits next to Sideways' front wheels that are hidden inside his torso.--[[Special:Contributions/86.87.28.191|86.87.28.191]] 11:40, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
:You're quite right. The red square bits have ''no other function'' than to clip into the notches, and the triangle bits have ''no other function'' than to fold up, to allow room for the windshields when the square bits clip onto the notches. This is a lot more plausible than clipping the notches onto the triangle bits, ignoring the fact that they fold up, and ignoring the red pegs. -[[User:Noviere|Noviere]] 01:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
::While this is true, if the back piece is folded all the way up (the hinge above his ass) it clicks into place--lining up with the notches and triangly pieces. The notches also line up with the extreme edges of the red pegs, if they line up at all. Also: upon dissection of the saw-arm, there is no internal evidence of a gear-driven assembly. [[User:Hida Atarasi|Hida Atarasi]] 21:41, 16 January 2010 (EST)

==Two-pack==
Anyone remember what size/price class the two-pack with Sideways and the blue Autobot redeco of Dropkick was meant to be in? Since it was shown at Botcon, we should be adding it to the page (and making a page for the Dropkick redeco, whose name escapes me?). --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:13, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

:That would be BLOWPIPE, the best Transformer ever! http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/attachment.php?do=fullview&attachmentid=19762 shows them with a price of $24.99, probably making it a pricy Voyager like the ROTF Seekers, also Wal-Mart exclusive. Speaking of, there was also a Sideways/Wheelie twopack for whatever reason as well. http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-movie-toys--products-30/revenge-of-the-fallen-wheelie--sideways-two-pack-to-be-released-in-select-international-markets-167843/ [[User:Fiscal|Fiscal]] 17:54, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

== Sideways in Revenge Of The Fallen The Game ==

Unlike in the movie(his life spent is less than 15 minutes), Sideways featured in the game is equivelant of Bumblebee. He is a powerful unit to take on even the larger transformers. Sideways is armed with a beam sniper rifles and a pair of rapid shot cannon(which it never got a chance to use it in the movie). His weapons are designed for ranged engagement(which fit his profiles) but can be use aggressively even in close combat. He also armed with a pair of wheels with circular shuriken saw blade. His special abilities is to deploy magnetic mines to slow down enemies.
He was featured in the first mission after the tutorial. His tasked was to eliminated the Autobots around the construction site & city in Shanghai. He can also be playable after acheieving certain task by other diceptacons. His can unlock the Shanghai zone's missions by acheiving 15 headshots. Sucessfully hit 5 enemies with the magnetic mines will give player the G1 coluor of Starscream in Singleplayer.
In multiplayer, he is best use against ranged target. But his attack speed & dance also enebles him to "stunned" his opponent that get to close to him, giving him precious time to flee from his opponent. Surprisingly, for his size, he was more durable than Starscream. Most likely because he is a smaller transformer and has a low profiles. His transformed into the Audi R8 make him an even harder target to hit. But his vehicle mode also makes him less likely to shoot anybody because of the game's heavy controls, high speed and unable to stop during vehicle mode. Thus more likely designed like in the movie, to flee from the relentless Autobots.
He is my 4th favorite transformers.([[User:Ultraquake|Ultraquake]] 04:52, 4 July 2009 (EDT))

==General Motor's Cybertronic Sattelite?==
"...Thus, Sideways became the only Transformer whose alternate mode is not a automobile manufactured by General Motors in the movie..."
Um, hello? What about all the vehicles ''besides'' automobiles, such as Soundwave? Am I missing something here? [[Special:Contributions/71.62.192.242|71.62.192.242]] 09:55, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
Probably meant to be "an automobile not manufactured by" --[[Special:Contributions/86.87.28.191|86.87.28.191]] 17:24, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
:And isn't it notable that Audi is the only member of the Volkswagen group that has agreed to license one of their vehicles for Transformers? Because I recall Porshe and VW were noncompliant in licencing because TFs are "War toys". [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 14:58, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::Except Audi didn't agree to license one of their vehicles for Transformers. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:25, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
:::The article makes it sound like Audi were the ones who asked to have their car in the movie. Is this not accurate? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 19:26, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Yes, but Volkswagen isn't keen on having their cars as TF toys for some reason. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:27, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
Sideways is also not an Autobot. Only Autobots get to be GM cars. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:08, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]]... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:04, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
::Barricade's not a GM car, he's a Saleen S281, which is basically a Ford Mustang. However, Soundwave's Earth mode was going to be a GM car (maybe in the next movie). -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 11:12, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF Sideways is not UT Sideways ==

As Sorenson on the Allspark Forums pretty clearly stated, (http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=70553&view=findpost&p=1575577) Almanac is full of in-Jokes and easter eggs. There is no reason at all to maintain that Animated Sideways vacation spot marks him as the ROTF Character of the same name. The intent certainly was not to combine the two character, but rather as a joke/easter egg giving a wink toward Hasbro's name reuses. And even if it was, the stretch is highly tenuous, and would fall under the TFWiki's own definitions of Authorial Intent (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Authorial_intent) and Pseudocannon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pseudocanon). - Master Fwiffo
:I'd just like to point out that saying RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways based on the single mention of a word is akin to saying the motorcycle Wreck-Gar threw at Bumblebee was actually the corpse of G1 Wreck-Gar who happened to dimension-hop there. Or that Spike and Carly and Daniel dimension-hopped from G1 and decided to live in Animated instead. Or that WASP from Shattered Glass is actually a dimension-hopping AniBee who was killed and whose corpse was converted into a salesbot. In other words, I'm saying a simple fanwank does not a large continuity reshuffle make. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:03, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
Yes, combining ROTF Sideways with UT/RID Sideways after an in-joke in the Almanac is not really a good move. I mean, we didn't merge Optimus Prime (RID) with Optimus Prime (G1) when some Takara guy says that they're the same continuity, did we? I mean, merging every single Fallen and Unicron and Primus is already confusing to people not familiar with the multiversal singularity thing, there's nothing to say that Sideways the dimension hopper is the same Sideways that got bisected in ROTF. And that is even if Sideways hopped from Animated to ROTF. It's an small in-joke, is all. [[Special:Contributions/110.138.16.169|110.138.16.169]] 09:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:In Japanase fiction, "Fire Convoy" is indeed in the same continuity as "Convoy". But they are different characters. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::I really wish you people would stop retardedly using "CR is in G1" as an argument against this. [[:Category:Car Robots characters|We recognize and embrace it.]] Find another dead horse to beat. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:43, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==Sideways is a special case. Little bus special.==
I don't go by author-intentism, though I am curious to see the reaction of those who do to Sorenson's "in-jokes and Easter Eggs" comment. Speaking only for myself, if it turns out Hasbro did not know Cybertronix was a real language instead of page deco then I am uncomfortable with any and all of the assertions that, under that circumstance, would have been snuck past their attention to be canonized by their stamp without review.

On the evidence itself, just about everybody agrees that Animated Sideways is clearly "the" Sideways. It is paradoxical to claim that a dimension jumper would be unique and constrained within the Animated dimension, therefore he has to be "somebody else," in this case the original Sideways.

Since he has the ROTF body and is said to have the power to dimension-jump and is said to be going to Shanghai, one could make an after-the-fact, God-of-the-gaps, not explicitly conveyed in fiction argument that he's ROTF Sideways too.

And if this were '''ANY OTHER CHARACTER''', nobody would be willing to make the leap, the evidence would be judged to be not strong enough, and there would be two pages here.

But basically everything Sideways has ever done has been explained onto the fiction by the after-the-fact handwaving of secondary authors. He never actually DOES these remarkable and unique things attributed to him, just the next guy in line every 2 years or so writes him up as having done it while we were asleep. It's his shtick. We've already made that leap of faith like 3 times. It would be completely arbitrary for us to try to draw a line in the sand here and say "no further."

So while I don't like it, I can go along with it. Numerous editors--particularly those that post on Allspark--have also shown degrees of discomfort with the idea. If they've got real problems with it, I suggest that THEY suggest it be put up for a vote.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly: ''If this article is going to be merged, it will need much more explanatory "note" text throughout and a much shorter and less specific opening, more along the lines of [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] and [[Prowl II]].'' People are going to read the article from start to finish, and so we will literally have to walk them through the arguments for unity. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

: (I hope I'm doing this right) The thing is, ROTF Sideways *has* a personality - not in the movies, but through the toy bios and video games and heck, even those UK comics. And those pretty clearly show that these two aren't the same character. All the other Sideway's have faction swapping and some other sort of extra-dimensional powers attributed to them. ROTF Sideways was an average Decepticon. You can't make that leap then, because they are two different characters with literally no relationship whatsoever. If ROTF Sideways was a faction swapping - or even somewhat mysterious or something, I might could buy it. But he's not. He's Joe Average Decepticon. - Master Fwiffo

::'''''Sideways''' is the consummate con-artist. He is misleading and deceitful in everything he does, portraying himself as the ninja-like warrior or the aloof drifter, and he lives for the look of shock and betrayal on his victims' faces when they realize he's played them for fools.'' That's an excerpt from the very article. He could easily be playing it up in order to trick the people of this new universe. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

::: Yes, that's Armada Sideways bio. ROTF Sideways bio says he's a courier, that he's cowardly, that he's BFF with Demolishor, and gives no indication across any of his bios that he has super mystical unicronian powers. He *could* be lying. He *could* have lost his powers in a diminsion jump. He *could* have decided to go to Hawaii before Shanghai, donned a hula skirt while drunk, and gambled away his powers in a fit of drunken revelry. We have nothing whatsoever to prove this is the case. Not a damn thing. ALl we have is an in-joke in a book full of in-jokes that even if taken as fact IN NO WAY PROVES ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANIMATED SIDEWAYS THINKS SHANGHAI IS A NEAT PLACE TO VISIT.

:::In short, split these articles. - Master Fwiffo

::::No. You have a voice here, same as anyone, but you don't have the authority you seem to think you have. Make your argument, but don't tell people what to do.
::::For my part, I think it's perfectly reasonable to merge these. It's always been coming, and we now have fiction explicitly bridging the two. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

Obviously I put in a "No" vote. Not only is the Almanac not officially branded as Movie fiction, not only does it contradict stuff that ''was'' officially branded as Movie fiction, not only is there no proof that Hasbro approved the Almanac as anything but but a guide to Animated specifically and/or expected the non-Animated info to be taken seriously, but Sorenson even friggin' outright stated that the damn thing was only meant as a joke, and seeing as how his authorial intent was the only remote evidence for this applying to begin with... 
Yeah, let's stop this insanity. The wiki is not a place for the editors' pet fanon theories, it's a place for canon according to the people actually writing the storylines for each branded bit of fiction. The mention in the Almanac is worthy of a footnote at best, since it's at best authorial intent from someone with no connection to the actual branded Movie fiction anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:This article needs to be split in two again. There's zero canon evidence for a merger in this case. The one canon statement this is vaguely based on only states that Animated Sideways would like to go to Shanghai at some point. We don't know what universe the Shanghai he wants to go to is in, let alone whether or not he ever got there. The only evidence he did go to the one in the Movie universe is the intent of one of the authors. Looking at the page for authorial intent we get:
::''[[Authorial intent]]: Facts about the fiction that are stated/intended by the authors but never established in official fiction are often referred to as pseudocanon.''
:Subsequently, looking at pseudocanon we find:
::''[[Pseudocanon]]: Pseudocanon usually fits in well with the actual canon (at least until a later writer invalidates it), as it is the writers' idea of "what is really going on" as they craft their stories. However, because it is not established in any official fiction, it can't be taken as a given or definitely "true".''
:So according to this very Wiki, AUTHORIAL INTENT IS NOT CANON. And since authorial intent was the only reason the pages were merged in the first place, that means the pages were merged without basis. The prosecution rests. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:17, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==D8==

Regarding the fact he was ALREADY sliced in half if the RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways.....does that mean he'll *gulp* come back?

[[User:Sideways 343|Sideways 343]] 03:42, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== This Revamp... ==

Just wanted to say I like the more genaric opening and the expanded explanitary notes on his weird situation added in this revamp. I might suggest a specific section, like Unicron has, directly following the bio to really address, directly and out of universe, all the retcons and hazy links that connect all the versions and how this came to be one page. As long as we're up front about the way the conglomorate character was built, where bits came from and how hazy the connections really are then there's absolutely no problem with keeping the merged. Our job is to get across the info on the character to the reader. Do that clearly and that's all that matters. IMO. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:37, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:Plausability does not make it canon. If you guys won't put in Megatron's Spark being put back into him or Dead Mens Boots as canon, there is no reason whatsoever to for two characters that don't fit together. Leave that last paragraph with animated Sideways - and from there, link to the ROTF Sideways profile on it's own separate page. Again, this bridge is made of straw. -Master Fwiffo
::Can you please stop [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Dead_Men%27s_Boots imagining up] [[Megatron_(G1)#Beast_Wars|things the Wiki]] does not do? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:51, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:: I thought "plausibility does not make it canon" was our argument, not yours. (And I think I'd find your contribution on this one Hot Button Topic to be more palatable if you'd contributed here anywhere else ever. You don't even have a Userpage! You're only here to troll this one subject! It's kinda meatpuppety.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:50, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::: Walky, I don't edit the Wiki, because I know it'd destroy all my free time if I did, and I'm already overloaded on other TF projects over at the Allspark. I'm really thankful for the work you guys do. No, really. I am. I read the article a lot (far more, I'd wager, then the average TF fan). But I really feel I have to take a stand on this because I like *both* versions of Sideways too much to let them be the same character, especially on such a tenuous, shaky bridge. Doing this only cheapens both - because either UT Sideways got the hell gimped out of him when he hit Tyrax, or ROTF Sideways is actually just a mindless fabrication of someone whos actually superpowerful (except he did nothing but die on screen). I mean seriously, look at those two options. That's bad fanfic writing right there. It makes the entire concept of Drift look brilliant by comparison. THe only reason I even brought it up here is because people insisted that this argument should be involved more on the wiki - so I'm presenting it here. I really do feel strongly about this, and trying to connect such shaky dots and claim it cannon really offends my sensabilities. I make fanon assumptions and connections all the freaking time. I enjoy doing it. But I sure as heck don't post them on the wiki. -Master Fwiffo
:::So wait. The opinion of people who spend time on the wiki, but don't necessarily edit it is completely irrelevant? Especially on something that'll throw off the casual visitor like this?? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 15:26, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::I'm saying that if Fwiffo wants to make a very major contribution IN GOOD FAITH, he could at least register his name. It's pretty simple! It makes it feel like he has an actual stake here, rather than making a hit-and-run contribution. (You curse out entirely too many anonymous/new editors for me to take your criticism here seriously.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::To be fair Interro, Dead Men's Boots is being put on here as pseudocanon and is the reason the apocrypha template is being created. You and Fwiffo are both half right and half wrong. And Walky, the plausibility argument goes both ways on this one. It's no more plausible that the two Sideways are one and the same, based on the statement of wanting to visit Shanghai, than it is plausible that they're not the same. Between that and a visual similarity that's just as likely to be merely an homage as not, I'm not actually sure we can prove either case. Which I would think means we have to assume the initial relationship between the characters (i.e. none) until proven otherwise. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 15:48, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::While I grudgingly believe the threshold of Sideways' normal after-the-fact handwaving history has been reached, clearly a lot of other people do not. I really don't want to see this turn into an ATTCM moment. It isn't worth it for two sentences in a Drink-Your-Ovaltine secret code. I think a fair course of action would be to give people some more time to register their thoughts on what a merged-and-annotated draft looks like, but if it's still pretty much 50/50 (or worse) and the aggravation hasn't stopped, I'd be in favor of splitting Movieways out--with notation blurbs at the beginning of his article and the end of "main" Sideways' Animated section describing the issue and how they very well might be the same character. We could convey the exact same content that way, while still leaving it to readers to determine whether the Shanghai to which A-SW traveled was in Animated or in Movie. I think it would be highly inappropriate to just ''cut out the same-character suggestion for Movie-ways entirely''. On one page or two, it has to be there. Because dammit, the situation IS different when it is long established that a character can Quantum Leap. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 16:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::I am in complete agreement with Thy on this one. BOTH DAMN SIDES are being really bulletheaded here, when there's a medium to be reached... the one he proposes. Let's look at our goddamn options to present the FACTS, whether we ''like'' ROTF Sideways being retconned into being the same one as the other one, just like ''every other weirdass issue we've had to deal with, from IDW's continuity to what the deal with Prime/WfC was continuity-wise'', and reach a consensus. I think we've more than hit Sideways-is-one saturation, even if there's room for debate... but then again, we hit that in ''so many other'' instances without this level of shit-slinging. 
:::::Because I swear, the level of pissy butthurt going on here is really, really embarrassing to witness. My god, people. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:07, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I will throw my support behind this if it gets people to ''stop''. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thy has my complete support, if only because his solution will finally end this continuity shitstorm. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 16:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I'm in favor of whatever results in a split page with a footnote and no more freakin' fanwank. (I'm not so much butthurt as I am crabby at how embarrassingly stupid all this fanwank has been.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Don't really have an opinion on it, but it seems that it should at least be mentioned. The pages can be merged if/when it becomes more clear. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:46, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't really care about whether it's one page that mentions that they may or may not be the same, or two pages with notes saying "He may be the same guy as RID/ROTF Sideways." I don't really pay attention to all this complicated continuity stuff, so it'd be the same to me, as long as it conveys the same information. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:52, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::In case I hadn't made it clear before (I thought I had, but I guess not). I am *perfectly fine* with notes and blurbs on both pages saying they *might* be the same character by what the Almanac says. That was never an issue for me - the issue is the forced combination of the two when no solid bridge exist. Shoving them together only makes things confusing. - Master Fwiffo
::::::::::::I say we go with the common legal rule of "beyond a reasonable doubt." If evidence is shown that proves that Movie Sideways is UT Sideways beyond a reasonable doubt, then merge the shit out of them. The problem is that right now all we know is that UT Sideways wanted to go to Shanghai, right? There's, what, four Shanghais he can go to without going to the Movie universe? Until we see more evidence that he actually IS Movie Sideways, all we can say is that he went to A Shanghai. He might have even gotten the idea from seeing his counterpart from another universe get cut in half there. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:41, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I'd be perfectly happy with Thylacine's approach. And I very much agree with the "reasonable doubt" idea. That's what I was getting at with my edit just above Thy's suggestion. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: Thy's approach sounds like a great idea. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I think Thy has the right idea. The relationship between all the previous Sidewayses is certainly not rock-solid. I think everyone can agree on that point. The only two Sidewayses that are explicitely the same guy are the motorcycles from Robots in Disguise and Robot Masters. Anything else is connecting dots. It makes sense, and is probably worth a trivia note, but it's not definite. But here's the crux. No one really seemed to mind when those dots were connected previously. Robots in Disguise Sideways and Robot Masters Sideways are footnotes. They're essentially nobodies, notable only for probably being the same guy as UT Sideways. Animated Sideways, too, exists pretty much solely to create links. However, now movie Sideways is being brought into the fold on evidence no more rock solid than the link between RiD/RM and UT Sideways. The problem is, movie Sideways has a substantial amount of pre-existing fiction. He's his own character. So while there's just as much evidence (or lack thereof) connecting him to the dimension-hopping Sideways as UT Sideways has, there's a force opposing the connection caused by the fact that his movie persona exists, and that that persona is so different than the other Sidewayses (by which I mean UT Sideways, who's really the only one that's fleshed out). Basically, I tend to look at it like this - if the Movie Sideways article is divorced from the UT Sideways article - and I believe it should be, based on the lack of uncontroversial evidence linking them- then the RiD/RM Sideways must also be split from UT Sideways by the same criteria.[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 18:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::The reasonable doubt approach sounds fine to me. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 19:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== Next Revamp ==

I've taken a stab at recreating ROTF Sideways, with necessary annotations, on my userpage. I don't remember how it originally began so I just whipped up the opening 'graf that you see. Let me know what you think. As for Sideways (RID), I'm envisioning that page's fiction section ending with the Animated notation, and then all the toys / merch / trivia pertaining to ROTF just vanishing. If there's some more elegant way to do this, please forgive me for not doing so--this is my first time trying my hand at something like this. If the original ROTF Sideways page is archived somewhere, I guess I just wasted some time. ;) --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:44, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:The last revision on ROTF Sideways prior to this is here, if it helps: [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Sideways_%28ROTF%29&oldid=473798] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::This seems like a good compromise, but "the other Sideways" should be changed to "a Sideways", because the former implies that it is indeed the case that the two Sidewayses are different, while the latter seems about as ambiguous as possible.

== Multiversal Singularity? ==

Considering how the Allspark Almanac is basically retconning UT Sideways (who is apparently the same as RID Sideways) to be the same as ROTF Sideways as well as Animated Sideways, should we put Sideways in the multiversal singularity category now? --[[User:Cydra|Cydra]] 17:01, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:Nah. Sideways is more of a dimension hopper. Plus, I don't think there's anything saying that he's a multiversal singularity. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 17:04, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::Unicron is supposedly getting his counterpart to the Thirteen, so I wouldn't be surprised if later retcons have Sideways as one of them. But I'm just speculating. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2010-07-06T02:53:58Z

173.71.105.23: /* What's Canon For Each Continuity */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Home Video sections are lacking ==
I looked up the DVD and Home Video content on Wookiepedia, Memory Alpha, Lostpedia, and even the 24 Wiki and they all brought up pages with tons of info, all neatly organized and categorized. But for this Wiki, searches turn up little and the only way I could find home video content effectively is through the "Category:Home Video" page, and even then it was - sorry to say - A Mess! Why is a wiki as large as this one so inadequate in this regard? If this wiki doesn't have it right, then shouldn't it be fixed by modeling the home video sections after the wikis that have it done right? Most of the content is already here, it just needs to be better organized. {{unsigned|4.254.83.255}}
:Er, I don't know what you mean, exactly, considering that our home video sections look perfectly fine to me. See: [[Transformers_Animated_(cartoon)#Home video releases]], [[The Transformers (cartoon)#DVD releases]], [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]], [[Robots in Disguise (cartoon)#DVD releases]], etc. I don't know what more you could want; for any series you want to know DVD info about, the info is likely available on that series' page.
:Either that, or you're perhaps not realizing the difference in how the TF series work. Instead of something like Trek where the different series are all in a ''single'' universe and storyline, there's somewhere around 16 DVD-able Transformers things, all of which are in multiple ''different'' universes and storylines.
:As such, IMHO it makes far more sense for us to group our home video by those separate series, rather than all together. I think most TF fans are only going to be interested in what DVDs are available for their specific favorite series/universe, rather than wanting to see every single DVD at once for everything.
:Not that a comprehensive DVD list might not still be a useful project, mind you. Just saying that IMHO we're far from unorganized or a mess if we don't have one. We just have different organizing needs because of the unique way the TF series themselves are organized. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:38, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::Agreed on all counts. I'd need to know what the previous poster was actually looking for to understand what improvements they're wanting.
::It ''could'' be this is another symptom of us not having any sort of "Transformers primer", as we discussed ages ago. Maybe time to revisit that idea?
::(I went onto Wookiepedia looking for some ideas, but got distracted by the absurdly long and reaching list of "References to the original trilogy" on the ''Attack of the Clones'' page. If that list were here, I'd take a weedwhacker to it.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 09:21, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::I like the idea of a Transformers primer, explaining the odd franchise and reboot and "multiple characters with the same name" nature of the deal. Pages like [[continuity]], [[canon]], and [[continuity family]] cover some of the info that might go on such a thing, but they're still a bit too "techy" for the casual reader, I think. Something that covers similar info but in a more accessible way might be very useful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:13, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::::I'd be all for a ''Transformers 101'' type page. A simple concise "These are Transformers, they come from Cybertron, there are Autobots and Decepticons (generally) fighting a big war (generally) over control of resources. Usually there's an Optimus and a Megatron (or the nearest local equivalent), a kid-friendly character and a conniving evil second-in-command, but beyond that, it's a weird-ass multiverse. Why are all the different incarnations of TF so different, yet so similar? [[To sell toys|Duh.]] [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:I will say that I think we need to be better about making sure individual episode/comic pages include all the relevant home-video/trade-paperback compilations one can find said individual episodes on... and I am a firm believer that each home video/compilation needs its own page. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:49, 7 March 2010 (EST)

I should have known I was stirring up a hornet's nest when I posted that yesterday. This started with my searching for old VHS releases of transformers on Amazon.com. I then figured I'd check it out on this wiki, but amazingly searching for VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray turned up nothing. (I even considered that it was the browser I was using. It's not.) "Home video" turned up pages for the series and their home video sections, but not a comprehensive listing with links (to the home video sections). There are some great guides to home video for the live-action films, and the home video category lists companies, but I just found it a bit frustrating that it required so much digging to find what I was looking for. Other wiki's do have pages dedicated to just DVD (Though I have exaggerated their organization.), and in the case of Memory Alpha templates that direct one to the releases. Granted, nothing's perfect and those other wiki's maybe only succeed over this one in that I was able to find what I was looking for fast. But content that can't be found might as well not be there. Out of frustration I finally just thought "This is a mess!" and posted the above.

Go ahead and say everything's fine. The content ''is'' there all well done when you do find it, even if it was difficult to come by (Why, for instance, does the home video category not provide links to the home video sections for each series and movie? Would putting all those article in the home video category be inappropriate? Maybe, but without something like that, the category didn't help much for my search.), and maybe this is more a criticism of the failings of the search engine behind the box on the left of each page. But my difficulty in finding what I was looking for happened, and I suspect it goes on all the time with other casual searches: "Lemme see what DVD releases there are for transformers." [types DVD, hits 'enter'] "Nothing?! Oh well..."
:Ah, I see the problem. DVD, VHS, and Blu-ray are all three-letter terms (or made up of three-letter terms with dashes), and the wiki software always returns no results for search terms with three letters or less.
:The problem is that (most) every other wiki only has one universe to worry about, while we have multiple universes. So it makes perfect sense for someplace like Memory Alpha to have all of the videos together, because the series are all sequels to each other.
:Whereas for us, there's little reason to have, say, the Robots in Disguise videos and the Animated videos together, because they're two series that have nothing to do with each other. Instead, we have home video listings on the series pages, because it's far more likely someone's going to want to know if RID specifically has videos, or Animated specifically has videos, etc.
:As such, putting the entire cartoon series pages into the Home Video category when only a single section contains info related to that category is odd. ''However'', I do think maybe we could fake it using redirects. For instance, "Transformers Animated home video releases" that redirects to "Transformers Animated (cartoon)#Home video releases", etc. Then we'd put the redirect in the category.
:We could also make it so that terms like "VHS", "DVD", and "Blu-ray" all redirect to "Category:Home Video" to get around the three-letter search terms problems. (Er, can you ''have'' redirects point to categories?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::Maybe part of the problem is that [[:Category:Home video]] mostly lists companies that put out TF on DVD. All well and good if you know Kid Rhino and Shout! Factory put out G1, but if you don't, how do you know where to go for G1 DVD info. We have [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]] and [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)/DVD]]. Perhaps we just need that for each series, and then maybe a central page to tie them together? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:18, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::I was just going to add an addendum that if we go the route of creating categorized redirects to all of our series-specific sections, we could create a couple subcategories to separate the companies from the actual release areas. We also should probably stick the DVD covers subcategories in their own umbrella "Covers" subcategory.
:::I'm not sure we really need a central page, so much as making the individual sections all available and easier to get to in the Home Video category, and making terms like "DVD" redirect to that category.--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::::I don't see the harm in having something at each of those namespaces, but given my druthers I'd make each of them in the format of a disambiguation page.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:25, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::::If I'm following you correctly, you're suggesting to make pages for DVD, VHS, etc. and have them be disambiguation pages? That's not a bad idea at all. I think we should definitely have an actual main page for Generation 1 video releases and perhaps the same for Beast Wars. Adding links to the nav templates for video releases (whatever is chosen as the 'central page' for that franchise) would probably be a good idea too. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)

I've been planning to make a central "hub" page since I started doing the home video stuff, and to have releases listed on episode pages (like I did at the bottom of [[The Transformers: The Movie promo]]), but I was waiting until I'd finished all the company pages so I could add everything together in one go rather than a load of little edits. I guess I took too long doing that, though, and the punters are getting restless. We've got enough info to make it worth starting now anyway, so I'll bump it up on my to-do list. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:38, 12 March 2010 (EST)
:Well, I was thinking something like the [[series]] page with links to everything, but I can't make that work without it becoming overly long and complicated. Instead I've gone with a simple disambig thing as suggested above, as well as the redirects and cat sorting that Jeysie mentioned. Thoughts so far? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 08:10, 13 March 2010 (EST)

== Toyline list formatting ==
I was looking through various toyline pages to get an idea of how to format the list of toys for the [[Beast Wars Metals (toyline)]] page that I created and the one I'd like to create for the [[Beast Wars (Japanese franchise)|Japanese Beast Wars]] toyline, and noticed an inconsistency in the way the toylists are done. Specifically, with whether alt-modes should be listed by the name of the toy. Beast Wars, Neo, Beast Machines, Armada and Energon include alt-modes, while G1, G2, Beast Wars II, RID, Cybertron, and ROTF do not. Movie 2007 has it for some but not all. Is having alt-modes in the lists something that we desire? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)

==Caption location==
I find the way captions are currently placed at the rightt ugly, in particular if the caption is very short. It only looks decent when it is a piece of a conversation. So, is it possible to alter the coding so that caption gets placed in the center? I think that will look a lot better. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:Uhhh...I'm not sure what you mean. Captions are placed in the LEFT of the boxes. Images are often at the right of the page, but not always. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:54, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
::Okay, so I have a problem telling left and right apart. ^^* Left then - the captions look ugly placed all too the ''left''. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:09, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:::Isn't left alignment of text associated with images standard in all forms of publication? That's the way I've always seen such things in books and magazines.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:02, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
: Centering would look terrible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:23, 16 March 2010 (EDT)

== Disambig3 of ordinary name ==

I think it is fine to put [[Template:Disambig3|Disambig3]] of ordinary names such as "[[David (disambiguation)|David]]", "[[Jim (disambiguation)|Jim]]", or "[[Bill (disambiguation)|Bill]]" on certain pages, since these names are names instead of generic words like "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Star|Star]]",[[Special:PrefixIndex/Thunder|Thunder]]", "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Sky|Sky]]", or "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Jet|Jet]]".

See, we won't call [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] or [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast]] just "Thunder" (unless here comes an official nickname some day). But it is natural/normal to call David Kaye "David" (for example). Or, it's normal to call [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] just "[[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]]".

So, in my opinion, it is okay to leave put disambig3 of ordinary names on those pages. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:Is there some kind of consensus for this, or is it going to lead to a huge edit war where different users like FortMAx and Interrobang (to pick a couple random editors) clog up recent changes alternately addign and removing disambigs without marking them as minor for filterng purposes? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 01:55, 17 March 2010 (EDT)

::Current consensus is that we put disambiguation on for first and/or last name. We haven't had any discussion about removing the disambig3s. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:08, 17 March 2010 (EDT)

== IP Range Blocking ==

As of this writing, within the past several hours, we've had a dozen edits from what appears to be one anonymous editor, sent from several IPs in the 64.112.16 range and one in 64.112.17 range. All have been attempts to add Japanese names to the ''TF Animated'' cast prematurely. I've blocked one of the addresses (infinitely, more for abusing multiple accounts than anything else), so any subsequent ones should also be blocked, but will this block other IPs he's already used? And if not, could someone point me to the process for handling this? Or is this something a super-admin has to handle?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:21, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
:The IP addresses he's been editing from are AOL's proxy, which uses a random IP from their range for each access, so he's not changing IP addresses intentionally. Blocking all of the IP addresses he could potentially use would mean blocking AOL in its entirety. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:36, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::And that's bad ''how''? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:46, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::So do I change his block to temporary instead of permanent? I'm not sure if a brief spate of premature Japanese name inclusion merits an infinite block in and of itself. Or do we hope this teaches him a lesson and that he registers if he wants to keep contributing?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 23:16, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
:::Every time he load or edits a page, he does so from a different IP address, so the ban on just one of the IP addresses won't make a difference - he'll never see that he's been banned. With AOL, it's either a blanket ban on the IP range, or semi-protecting the articles being attacked. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:27, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::::The problem with AOL is that they have effin' huge IP ranges, they don't send X-Forwarded-For headers by default, and approximately ten umptillion people use it, which means we'd be blocking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people.
::::Semi-protect the pages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:38, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::Ditto on semi-protect. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:32, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I looked up a Wikipedia talk page on how to deal with AOL vandals, and they came to the same conclusion - better to semi-protect the pages than block 5 million people. If the AOL person comes back and tries it again, we should semi-protect the pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:09, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Works for me. If I'm here the next time he tries something, I'll semi-protect as many ''Animated'' character pages as I can in one go.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:19, 24 March 2010 (EDT)

== Formatting Pet Peeves ==

So a thread on the Allspark made me want to bicker about a few annoying pet peeve things I see people doing here on the Wiki.

'''Double-spacing between sentences.'''

Folks... these are ''web pages''. Double spaces ''don't show up'' on the display unless you use the HTML code that forces one (and please, for the love of humanity, don't). Now, putting double spaces before inline templates like storylinks does make sense, because it lets you pick them apart from the actual text while editing, but double-spacing sentences just does nothing even from that standpoint. And over the number of pages we have, it can add up space-wise.

'''Putting line returns between list items.'''

When you put list items together like this:

<pre>*List item one
*List item two
*List item three</pre>

You get this in the code:

<pre><ul>
<li>List item one</li>
<li>List item two</li>
<li>List item three</li>
</ul></pre>

See? Nice correct ''single'' list. Now, what happens when you do this instead?

<pre>*List item one

*List item two

*List item three</pre>

Well, you get this:

<pre><ul>
<li>List item one</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>List item two</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>List item three</li>
</ul></pre>

Yes. Now instead of a list that should be a single being in, you know, ''one'' coded list, it's now in ''three'' coded lists. This is bad for a number of reasons.

If you want spacing between line items, put a blasted line of CSS in your personal CSS thingy that puts some there:

<pre>li {margin:.5em 0;}</pre>

In fact, even better, someone with admin access put that line in the wiki's main CSS like I've been trying to pester Derik to do for ages now. Boom, instant spacing without doing god-awful things to the HTML code.

'''The never-ending {{tl|-}} vs. {{tl|--}} debate.'''

Considering the whole reason the latter was created was to replace the former in those instances where the spacing was too large, having some folks constantly swapping the latter back to the former is annoying. And then there's the people who don't even bother to do the swap and just stack both together, which is just really stupid.

If what's making it not work is that it's:

<pre>{{--}}

Next Header</pre>

When it needs to be:

<pre>{{--}}
Next Header</pre>

Then, you know, fix the code.

And if the problem is that you're using an outdated browser, then either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us.

Anyhoo. There's probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but for now, this is your Code Wench complaining about these issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:22, 28 March 2010 (EDT)

:Good call on
<pre>
* list

*list</pre>
:that was something I was unaware of but will look out for in future. While we're talking formatting, though, is it possible to remove the <pre>{{--}}</pre> (or similar) from the note template? When notes escape images it tends to screw up the page a bit --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 16:43, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
::The problem is that if we don't, the note template is coded in such a way that it currently ends up overlapping part of the image frame and looking worse. Also:
::<pre>li + li {margin-top:.5em}</pre>
::Might be better for the list item spacing, as then you avoid affecting the spacing above and below the list, plus it will avoid messing up the articles where the list items have been spaced out, and they can be fixed at our leisure. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
:::That is indeed a better thought, although I don't recall off-hand if IE7 supports that type of selector or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:19, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
::::I just tested it in IE8 and... no dice. Oh well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:55, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::I'm confused, because [http://kimblim.dk/css-tests/selectors/ this page] says it's supported in IE7 and 8, but when I tried it in my copy of IE8, it didn't work. I may have to retest and see if it wasn't some minor syntactical error that was stopping it working. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:05, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
::::::I'm wondering if it's possibly a standards mode vs. quirks mode (or compatibility mode or whatever the heck they're calling it nowadays) sort of thing, as I know IE likes to pretend it doesn't support some things if it gets kicked into quirks mode. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:57, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Aha, yes, it was a compatibility thing. I slapped a DOCTYPE on the top of my test page, and li+li started working! That seems like it would be the best solution to the problem of cramped lists. I can add it to common.css at some point, if everyone agrees. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:40, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Having tested further, the solution needs more work. We probably do not want to have this spacing in ''all'' of the lists, because otherwise you get this: [http://www.aldenbates.com/spacedcharacters.jpg]. So I think to be viable, we need to limit it to Notes sections somehow. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:16, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Is it possible to reset the margin for lists that are in a table? TABLE LI {whatever the reset would be}. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 07:29, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Yes, however there are occasions where such lists occur outside boxes too. The [[More_than_Meets_the_Eye,_Part_1#Home_video_releases|Home Video stuff]] on the episode pages, lists of external links, the "these pages link to this image" list on the image pages, etc. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:38, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't see why some spacing on those kinds of lists too is a bad thing.
:::::::::::But you could always try something like H2+UL LI+LI, or just reduce the amount of space a little to .25em or such.
:::::::::::Or adapt what Derik did to limit the TFNA/TFU/YoJoe icons to only show up in the "External Links" sections:
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;">#bodyContent a[name='External_links'] + h2 + ul > li > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external,
#bodyContent .tt1_external > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external{
padding-right:61px;
background-image:url('http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/75/Tfuinfo_icon.png');</pre>
:::::::::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:45, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::I tried doing the latter last night, but my CSS fu was not strong enough. The extra h3s in the way complicate things. Maybe Derik can have a crack on it when he's back on deck? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Still haven't had the chance to really look at this yet, but I had a thought: Since we tend to frequently label our Notes sections in the same way, why not just add those labels as extra matching rules? That would cover a good chunk of the H3 issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:16, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Could do, but there would be a bunch of them, and things like [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1#Animation_or_technical_glitches|this]] where the lists are interrupted by paragraphs (I'm not sure why those aren't just H4s). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:28, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I don't really see it as a problem... since most of our existing lists would need the extra spaces edited out anyway after this, we can always standardize other things as well, as soon as we decided on one (semi-colons, H4s, whichever). In fact, working on standardizing our code when we can is a good thing in general anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:43, 4 April 2010 (EDT)

:::::::::::::Having given this more thought: probably the safest way to do it would be to create a template similar to {{tl|columnlist}}. The disadvantage being that it would have applied to all of the lists where it was required. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:07, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Considering the whole point was to get people to have the whitespace they wanted while still using the coding correctly, that's not really what I had in mind. Let me see if I can find some time to hack away at it, provided Derik doesn't show up first. Honestly, though, considering we don't have a lot of in-body non-table-contained lists, I'd be more inclined to just live with spacing on all of them. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

Hey, if we're moaning about formatting, I got one - is there any way to make the "note" template work with left-aligned pictures that doesn't result in a chunk'o whitespace? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:28, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
:The image float is what makes it tricky, at least visually. Do you have an example handy I can look at? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
::Sure, now that I'm looking, I can't find a truly annoying example of it, but here's a [[Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#Hearts_of_Steel|for instance]]. If that picture was right-aligned, the note would snap up to right under the body text, but because the pic's on the left, it creates that whitespace. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:16, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
:::OK, did some poking around.
:::Basically, there's a <tt>clear:left</tt> in the CSS for the Notes, and I discovered that the reason why is that you can get [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/wiki-note-wonkyness.jpg this sort of icky visual] otherwise.
:::This could be fixed by removing the <tt>clear:left</tt> and then either putting the Note in a single-cell table or slapping a <tt>display:table</tt> on the CSS for it (which would be cleaner code-wise but may not work in IE or older browsers; I don't know off-hand), but I'm not sure what effect that might have on ''other'' text/image-wrapping situations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

Still don't know why you can't get <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki>. Reasoning that people on those browsers should "either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us" or bulljive like that is idiotic, because unless they visit this specific subsection they won't be aware the stupid thing isn't working due to browser outdatedness. Plus, as a ressource, shouldn't we, I dunno, thrive to be as accessible to as many people as possible, regardless of browser choices? Surely working the code for <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki> so it works on as many browsers as possible can't be that daunting a task? I mean, honestly now, it's just the same break as <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> but without the extra space at the end. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:27, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:I'm not Derik (obviously) but basically... what the {{tl|--}} does is put a "clear:both;" on the header following the template via this:
<pre>.tt1_clearall + a + h1,
.tt1_clearall + a + h2,
.tt1_clearall + a + h3,
.tt1_clearall + a + h4,
.tt1_clearall + a + h5,
.tt1_clearall + a + h6</pre>
:Which involves CSS selectors that older browsers can't handle because they weren't compliant with all of the standards. I think the only other way to handle this would be using javascript to alter the heading in question. Doable, I guess, but it seems like a waste of time to bother for the tiny handful of people who refuse to update to a standards-compliant browser. Whether Derik would feel differently or not, you'd have to ask him.
:There's a lot of newer HTML and CSS standards that help out both viewers and webmasters, that either can't be done with very old browsers or can only be replicated on them by fiddling with complex javascript code. You need to accept that people aren't going to keep from ever using anything new just to accommodate your personal choice to keep using a buggy and outdated browser, especially when you're in an increasingly tiny percentage. Doubly especially when it's something like this where the site is still usable even if it doesn't work.
:(Now, if you were using something like Lynx, which actually ''is'' standards-compliant for everything related to its pure-text methodology--and there are good reasons for choosing to surf sans images--''then'' I think you'd actually have a good case.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:00, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::Hey, I'd love to switch over, but new versions of IE have complete clusterfucks instead of layouts, and while I ''can'' mess around with the layout on Firefox to make it match IE6, the inability to add Office, MSN and AIM shortcuts to the icons, as well as just how freaking ''paranoid'' it is when it comes to browsing, downloading, etc., just makes me very uninterested in using it on a regular basis. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 11:41, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Try using Opera. The button layout is drag-and-drop customizable to ridiculous degrees (my own setup basically looks nothing like the default setup), including being able to [http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons add custom buttons] and website buttons. Its tile-able tab setup and ability to save and quick-insert custom notes and retain form data with the "Back" button is really helpful for Wiki-ing too. There's also things like one-click adding of custom searches (yay TFWiki search). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:54, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

==Categories==
:To distinguish between the group Headmasters and characters appearing in Japan's 1987 franchise, the categories are called "Headmasters" and "Headmasters franchise". Wouldn't it be a better option to have the franchise category be called by its franchise name "The Headmasters"? On top of that, some of its subcategories are called "Headmasters [something]" while others are called "The Headmasters [something]". I suggest to alter them all to either one of the options, preferably the latter one if the main category is changed to include "The".
:The "Universe (2003)" category also has some oddities. First of all, "Universe characters" should probably be further divided to differentiate from the 2008 guys, even if they may not need a category on their own since "Universe (2008)" is practically only characters as is. I'd do it, but right now various (sub)subcategories are called "Universe 2003 [something]" instead of a more logical "Universe (2003) [something]" to be alike to the main category. Is there a reason for that or should it be changed to match? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:20, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
::Distinguishing between the characters and the franchise solely by the presence of the definite article, while TECHNICALLY correct, is just asking for confusion. I do agree with you on the Universe characters and the subcategories of "Universe (2003)", though. -- [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

==Analog/Homage vs Distinct Character==
This has come up in relation to whether or not [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is an homage to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]], particularly as to how both of them relate to [[Sentinel Major]]. [[User:ItsWalky]] informed me on [[Talk:Sentinel_Prime_(G1)]] that (emphasis mine):
"I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime. They are analogs. That relationship goes both ways. ''This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters.'''"

Is that policy and/or the general consensus? I don't see why it should be applied universally as ItsWalky suggests it is, especially with characters like [[Jetfire_(G1)]] and [[Jetfire_(Animated)]] where we have evidence to suggest that two characters are not intended to be homages or different 'versions' of the same character. That said, I'll bow out if the quotation from ItsWalky speaks for the wiki as a whole. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:50, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:As I said, I don't consider Animated Sentinel Prime to share anything with G1 Sentinel Prime but a name. As such, Sentinel ''Major'' is an homage to Animated Sentinel Prime, and cramming him into G1 Sentinel Prime's page does him a disservice.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:29, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Well first, an analog is virtually the opposite of an homage. A character is an homage if they are designed to resemble another character WITHOUT actually BEING that character. An analog to a character actually IS the same character, only from another dimension. So Insecticon from Energon could be called an ''homage'' to the original Deluxe Insecticon Barrage because they share a similar paint job. They are, however, different and distinct characters. On the other hand, Energon Insecticon in the Dreamwave Comics is an ''analog'' to Energon Insecticon from the Energon cartoon.
:As for your actual question...I don't really know what your actual question is. Practically speaking, I mean. Jetfire (G1) and Jetfire (Animated) are on two separate pages because they are from two separate continuity families, Primax and Malgus. There is a disamg at the top because of their similar (in this case identical) names. The reuse of the name alone isn't considered a homage, generally, because name reuse is just a fact of life in trademark reservation. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:45, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::Xaaron- The issue that started this seems to be whether [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] and [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] have ''any'' relationship to each other beyond the name, be it through homage or being analogues.
::I think there might be a difference of use of the word 'homage' between various parties here; ItsWalky and [[User:JimSorenson]] both used the term 'version', which Jim treated as synonymous with 'homage', and Walky identified it with 'analogue'. I chose to re-use the terms they were using, since those were at the heart of the disagreement.
::In any case, my question is whether ItsWalky's statement that ''"This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters."'' as quoted above is valid. It suggests to me that the policy and/or consensus is that characters from different continuity families who share a name should be assumed to be analogous. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 23:08, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::No, that's not true. The Mini-Con Safeguard from Transformers Cybertron and the combo robot Safeguard from Transformers Animated are not analogs.
:::But whether they're analogs or not, they're still from different continuity families and would be filed under different character pages. That's where your question breaks down for me: what are you expecting to do or not do differently based on the answer on our "policy"? What are the practical ramifications of your query? I feel like you're suggesting the answer to this analog / distinct character question of yours is going to have sweeping changes on how you plan to contribute to the wiki, but I can't see HOW.
:::Basically...''What's your point''? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:24, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::My point was to find out if ItsWalky spoke for the wiki, or just himself. After all the back and forth arguing with him and JimSorenson over related issues, I'd rather go back to tackling unrelated topics for a while, like correcting typos in articles. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:50, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::The main purpose was related to the Sentinel Prime/Major example, though it's possible it might have other related purposes. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:00, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

==Third Party products such as Fansproject etc==
There's a good amount of folk here who have a lot of these products. While their unofficialness obviously means they cannot have their own articles, would there be ''any'' positive sentiment to somehow giving them a mention? Say a point in the corresponding trivia section? Or failing that, an external link at the bottom of the [[Kitbash]] page to some other archive (if one even exists?)? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:08, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:They've already got a mention in the [[kitbashing]] article, and that suffices. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:21, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

== 1993 European G1 character disambuigation. ==

We do not seem to have any guidelines for the default franchise-of-origin disambuig for the characters from the 1993 European G1 line. And if there ''are'' guidelines, they sure aren't being followed.

The main problem with this group is that all of them were sold in both the G1 and G2 lines in Europe, and many of them were also sold in the American G2 line. Because of this, there are three main groups:

Group 1: Skyscorchers and Axelerators: The American releases at most differed in name and window color from the European releases. Determining which version was out first is nearly impossible, but they were clearly designed for the European market. We currently use (G2) as the default for all of them.

Group 2: Color changers, Aguaspeeders, and Stormtroopers: The US only got the Aquaspeeder molds, but the US bios are, aside from the names, identical to Aquaspeeder and Stormtrooper bios.
*Autobot Color Changer Drench has Aquaspeeder Jetstorm's bio and stats.
*Autobot Color Changer Gobots has Aquaspeeder Deluge's bio and stats.
*Decepticon Color Changer Deluge has Stormtrooper Hydradread's bio and stats.
*Decepticon Color Changer Jetstorm has Stormtrooper Drench's bio and stats.

The Color Changers have the same unknowns as Group 1. Currently, the G2 disambuig is used.

Group 3: Lightformers and Trakkons. None were released in the US. Fearswoop uses the G1 disambuig.

Group 4: Obliterators. Named "Pyro" and "Clench" in G1, and "Spark" and "Colossus" in G2. [[Clench (G2)]] is just plain wrong.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:26, 17 April 2010 (EDT)
:It's a tricky situation, but here are some similar cases that might help us decide:
:1) [[Go-Bot (G2)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Laser Optimus Prime]]
:We call these "Generation 2" despite [http://webspace.webring.com/people/ao/optimus7/G2Frenzy.jpg not having the term] [http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/105/434/692/O5GD.jpg on their packaging.] The timeframe and the faction symbols are enough.
:2) [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2003)|''Universe'' "Spy Changers"]]
:The first release of these toys was in packaging that just said "Transformers" with no subline, much like the Euro pre-G2 examples. But they were released again later in ''Universe'' packaging, which we use for our categorization.
:If we apply those principles to your examples, then in every case I think we end up with G2. "Clench (G2)" is... odd, but not much odder than [[Double Clutch (G2)]].
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:31, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:: True, but the Gobots and Laser Prime still use the G2 version of the Transformers, but the 1993 Euro line still uses the 1992 logo. Hell, aside from the faction symbols, the 1993 toys use the 1992 EVERYTHING. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:48, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Shrug. It's not a perfect analog, but ultimately I don't think there is one. I personally don't see any way of getting an ironclad This Is It answer out of the question, but I do think the examples I gave present a pretty good guide if we want to use it. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:43, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::So should all of these transitional figures be moved to G2 disambigs if needed? Specifically, Should [[Fearswoop (G1)]] move to Fearswoop (G2)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:32, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::If you're asking me, then yes. But the authority lies in the consensus of the mob (which seems to be pretty disinterested in the topic. Try moving the page! I bet you'd get some answers then.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:20, 29 June 2010 (EDT)

::Wow. I'd completely forgotten that G2 actually dropped the "Generation 2" from the packaging towards the end. Thanks. that's actually kind of good to know... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:01, 25 May 2010 (EDT)

== A Visual Representation of Transformer Anatomy ==

For a very long time I've been fascinated with transformer hands and fingers, and was always noting the different ways they were portrayed in art and the toys. Sometimes they look like a painted gloved human hand, other times fingers (3, 4, 5, or more?) are like a bunch of linked short cylinders, and often they are made of various polygons with enormous variation. And then there are the 'hands' that are actually claws or pinchers, or (borg-like who needs a hand-on-this-arm?) weapons like laser cannons (A certain high-ranking one-eyed Decepticon comes to mind). Looking for any articles about hands brought me to the anatomy category page, and while skimming it I realized the obvious: I was looking at a list of pages many of which could easily be represented visually.

Maybe it's been suggested before, and as near as I can tell it doesn't exist (yet), but I wonder why not have a page with a visual representation of transformer anatomy and links where possible. Some 'anatomy', like the software kind probably can't be represented pictorially, but certainly many (most?) could. It would take a lot of work from some folks skilled in illustration, but I think it'd be really cool to have a picture of a transformer (a generic male or one selected to be representative) with annotations of various anatomy, and a close-up of a head & face for head/face specific ones. There could also be a female version (for, say, heel struts, though too many specifics could easily be sexist) and maybe an animal/non-humanoid version. Cut-aways could reveal internal anatomy not easily represented with an exterior-only view and some non-anatomy (like kibble) could also be represented. I've even mused that such an illustration could be a transformer version of da Vinci's [[Wikipedia:Vitruvian_Man|Vitruvian Man] as was done before [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM15casey.jpg], though some readers might misunderstand and think it was an eight-limbed transformer.

So, whadyathink? Is this an old, horrible idea that was harshly rejected years ago, a kinda-sorta OK one that is priority #4,896,929.6, or worst of all does exactly this very thing exist and I somehow missed it? {{unsigned|4.254.84.116}}
:Finding said material varies between source to source. "[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]", I believe, had a few X-ray shots of the TFs (Optimus comes to mind easily), being a DK book. The most recent issue of TV Magazine has a few anatomy pictures of Animated Optimus, Bumblebee, and Starscream, but I'm not sure if earlier TV Magazine issues did so as well. I think they're rather scarce on both sides of the Pacific, though I could be wrong... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:05, 23 April 2010 (EDT)

::Anon poster seems to be suggesting that we make our own anatomy pictures. That's not really within the remit of this site, since we only use canonical information and therefore images. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Heh, I need sleep... But, that answers your question, anon. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:51, 23 April 2010 (EDT)

::::Another canon image I just noticed is on Takara's [[World of Transformers]] site. There's a cutaway of [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:37, 24 April 2010 (EDT)

==Planet Cybertron==
:First, I'd like to point at two above unresolved matters about category names and G1.5 disambs.
:Second, I'm currently motivated to update the information on the wiki regarding Cybertron locations. But I have no clue how to do it. Since we don't split them, can I just lump information from different continuities and/or continuity families together in the intro part and let the fiction section do the sourcing or should I keep the introduction to what usually amounts to "[...] is a city on Cybertron" and the contributions of various continuities unambiguously separated. Also, this whole city-state vs city thing as we've currently got it written down (mostly courtsey of the city template) is confusing the heck out of me. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:14, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

==Google-rank milestone==
For the first time that I've seen, a Google-search for "Transformers wiki" puts us at the top of the list, followed by Wikia and then Wikipedia. Well done, people! (Looking up character names tends to give the reverse order, but still.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:19, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:I remember some months back, we got the #1 result when I checked, though it wasn't consistent in all areas (I made a thread at the Allspark and some people were getting us first, others weren't). Eventually, we sank back down to #2 again somehow. This is the first I've heard of anyone seeing us back at #1. Hopefully we'll stay there, this time! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:22, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:I get us second (tfwiki.net), fourth (tfwiki.virtutechgames.com), fifth (174-143-26-81.slicehost.net), twentyfirst (174.143.26.81) and thirty third (en.tfwiki.net) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:32, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
::...why on earth do we have so many aliases that are publically crawlable? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:46, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:::I PM'd Scout about it on AllSpark a while ago. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::I get first... and Wikia isn't even on the first "screen" of results. ahahahah. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:48, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Oh, and because I forgot to mention it earlier, I'm getting us at #1, too (wikia at second, Wikipedia at 3rd). With any luck, we'll keep the rank this time and never have to worry about confusion with that swirling vortex of ineptitude ever again. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:27, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::Key question... are you logged into your google account when you check? -Derik (not logged in)
:::::I'm not logged into mine, but I still get us #1, Wikia #2, Wikipedia #3. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:49, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yay! (You'd be surprised how often people forget Google is customizing their search results.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:50, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Seems the result swings back and forth, sometimes we got first while sometimes second. (I don't have a Google account.) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 02:01, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I'm logged into Google, and I get wikia first, then us, then wikipedia. Could the difference be regional? I'm Canadian, if that helps. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Oddly I get us first if I log OUT of my gmail account, but second if I am logged in. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:06, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The results are pretty volatile at the moment. We'd been showing at #1 for me for a few days before Jackpot mentioned it, but since then, I've only seen us coming up in second place. I really do think it would help us if we got the alias problem mentioned above sorted out so that Google was only indexing us once. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:39, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Also people are now starting to link to us at the [http://www.metafilter.com/91256/Mad-Man-Mad-Men-Namor-sleeps-with-the-fishes wrong URL], which can only be bad for us. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:58, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::Yeah, we need to either throw a [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=156449 "no index" robots.txt] file on those other domains (then do [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=164734 this Webmaster Tools bit], if anyone's got those for our site), redirect them, or take them offline (depending on what would work best).
:::::::::::Maybe someone should PM McFly on the Allspark, since that was mentioned as getting a response? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:52, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::The best way, IMHO, is to use a 301 response to direct them to the proper URL . I already PM'd McFly about this, and he said that Scout handles redirects. I didn't get any response when I PM'd her though. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::It's final exam time now. That might have something to do with it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 19:01, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I don't know whether this is just me or not, but tfwiki.virtutechgames.com is throwing a "Page Not Found" at me right now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::It's not working for me either, looks like the alias has been deleted. Awesome! Now we just need to get the IP address, 174-143-26-81.slicehost.net and *.tfwiki.net to redirect and we're set! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:Teletraan-1 just got linked on Penny Arcade's frontpage. Expect them to go out the top of Google and then have their server burst into flames. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:03, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

== Pyro's Packaging Art Found (Hopefully) ==

OK, I got a big TIF scan sent over from Graham at The Hub, which I present thusly: http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/pyro.tif because it needs some cleanup and I figured I'd let someone who knows better what they're doing do said cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:29, 14 May 2010 (EDT)
: Hoorraaay! Cleaned up and put up. Thanks! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:24, 14 May 2010 (EDT)

== What the hell is emopanda? :D ==

Hey, people have been asking me what the emopanda URL is that they see when they load up the wiki (I've seen it too). I recall it has something to do with Derik, but why is it loading when we load our wiki? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:42, 19 May 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's site. He has a stylesheet file on there which has experimental stuff in it, which (theoretically) later gets moved to the global stylesheet here once it's all tested. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:55, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

==Userpage caps==
Can we get a hardline policy on User Page sizes? Preferably, the smaller the better? I'm getting juuuuuuuuust a wee bit sick of the Recent Changes page being cluttered by people turning this wiki into a fucking Myspace account. That this recent one is ''not in English'' doesn't help. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:My guess is we could, but page size has little to do with the number of edits that can be done to it. So, is it worth bothering about a user page limit? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::Perhaps a limit to the number of times a user page can be edited in a day. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 12:43, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Ditto. Also, I say we ban the hell out of user pages in other languages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:46, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::How about some simple rules?
:::* '''ONE''' image for your page. That's all you need.
:::* No collection listing. Nobody cares.
:::* Keep it to one paragraph of standard info. This is not a dating site, we don't care about your likes and dislikes.
:::* Listing ''work directly related to updating this wiki'' on top of the above-mentioned paragraph is fine. Projects on your plate, past completed ones, etc, all fine.
:::* '''ENGLISH'''.
:::* All User Pages are subject to mods going "NO" and taking a chainsaw on fire to it.
:::I think this is not unreasonable. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:58, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::One more.
::::A user page can only be edited X (we'll decide the exact number later) times a day. Any more and you are subject to being temporarily banhammered. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:03, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::So, would point 3 also forbid any stuff like personal canon or thoughts on canon? I kinda like those sections on user pages. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:06, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::Basically, yes. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:08, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::I'm... with Geewunling, actually. Notes like personal canon and fave things are useful for knowing what a user's biases are and what areas of the wiki they're likely to work on, which I find interesting and useful.
:::::::IMHO for the most part the real problem is people who make frequent edits to their userpage without making many wider wiki edits, not necessarily the content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::That can be pretty well covered in the initial paragraph. If you like BW best and think you'll do mostly that, fine, say so. We don't need your fanfic ideas. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:51, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::My user page should be the guideline for all of you. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:29, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::I guess, to be straightforward with my opinion, if the person's not posting anything offensive, uploading multiple pictures, or cluttering up Recent Edits, I don't see how it matters all that much what a person has on their userpage.
::::::::::If anything, there's some people I remember wishing had ''more'' information about themselves on their userpages, especially the admins. Makes it easier to get a mental map of which regular is which. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:32, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::That's my opinion, too. I don't think it matters what is on a user page, even *gasp* a foreign language. If the edits could be restricted to one a day though, that would be cool. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:36, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::I fully support all those points. Our space should not be dedicated to MySpace accounts for Transformers nerds. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xfa27/Demolisher It could be worse...] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:19, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::All the better that we left. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
Hmmm ... what about something like all user page edits being automatically tagged as minor edits?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:I don't hide minor edits, because even "minor" edits can be big fuckups. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:07, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
My userpage is the one we should all aim to emulate. X-P - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::Is there a function that would hide all user page edits? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Select "User" from the Namespace dropdown and then tick the "Invert selection" box. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:37, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

===No collection listing ===
[[Greg Sepelak|M Sipher]] suggested that above. Can I (or any other regular, non-admin user) tell people to remove their collection lists? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 16:04, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

== Good idea from the other place, no really! ==

Looking over the other Transformers wiki, I noticed that their recent changes takes multiple successive edits of the same page by the same user and shows them as a single listing (with a clickable drop down showing more details). Is there any way we can get this function here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:10, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:It doesn't work like that. It actually takes multiple edits of the same page within a specific timeframe and shows them as a single listing. Whether it's the same user or not doesn't factor in. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:If you mean the enhanced recent changes page, we already have that here. You can turn it on in your preferences. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:54, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

::I noticed the point Blackout made after examining it more, it still seemed like a useful function - particularly with some of the problems we've had with "clogging recent changes". Good to know we have it here. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:43, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:::It's a good function (on Wikia, it only appear for anon and bot users) since it is much more convenience. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 00:05, 27 May 2010 (EDT)

== Wikia's New Initiative ==

Apparently, they're now offering to absolutely remove all ads from small wikis, for 19.95 dollars a month.

Why am I not surprised? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:10, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
: Hahahahaha. That's cheaper than what we pay for hosting, but still sooooo not worth it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:14, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
::It's even more stupid once you realize that some wikis are incredibly small, edited by a small group of people, and the only anons are regular editors forgetting to log in. (My wiki in a nutshell.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:20, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Those are about the only wikis that would actually be eligible for this, since they have to get less than 20,000 page views a month. For comparison, we get about 8 times that per ''day''. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:21, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
::::And anyone running that small a wiki who's willing to throw money at it would be much better off getting their own webspace for $10/month and installing MediaWiki software on it (not to mention getting their own domain and POP e-mail and being able to upload and do whatever they want with the rest of their webspace). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:40, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::They're only giving it to the first 100 wikis. I'm pretty much ready to take bets on how long until Wikia realizes only twelve people in the universe have gone for it and now they must make it 19.95 dollars a ''week ''in order to make any sort of profit. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:34, 29 May 2010 (EDT)

== Image leeching ==
Is there much we can do about people leeching images off the wiki? That is, people on forums directly linking the image off of our server and not bothering to rehost it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:38, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
:I believe there was a discussion about this at some point. The general consensus was to somehow get all hotlinked images to change to another image or something. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:47, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
::There's plenty that can be done. The problem has been getting the folks with server access to actually do it. :> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:55, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I've brought this up a few times to no avail :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:05, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
::::But seriously, people on forums are not going to stop directly linking images (thus costing you money and making the wiki perform more sluggishly than necessary) until something is done about this. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:50, 17 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Have you emailed [[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] about it? Not sure how often she checks the Community Portal. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:34, 17 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Good idea, I just did so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:27, 18 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::She never got back to me. Now what? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:47, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::That's about as far as I got with the subdomain issue too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

== Slicehost RSS Rerouting ==

Is there any way to get the RSS feed to never switch over to the Slicehost IP? Maybe I'm the only one who bothers subscribing to the Recent Changes feed, but it's really annoying ending up with dozens of duplicate entries constantly because the feed keeps switching between sending the TFWiki.net server entries and the Slicehost duplicate entries. (Not to mention that accidentally clicking to the site from the Slicehost entries instead of the TFWiki ones lands you on the wrong server for editing. Been tripped up by that a couple times, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:35, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
:Out of interest, what are you using as an RSS reader? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:05, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
::I just use Opera's built-in RSS reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:34, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

==Transform into other bots==
I was wondering if this gimmick has ever been done. As an example: Ratchet transforms into Ironhide, or something like that.
Its odd..a transformer becoming another one, but I HAD to ask if it'd be done or not.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
:Bizarrely, [[:Image:Skywarpatron.jpg|it almost was]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:54, 21 June 2010 (EDT)
::Technically it ''has'' been done, if you count [[Shockwave (Animated)]] and [[Punch (G1)]]. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:40, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

==Anon Criticism==
I find this wiki to be a piece of shit. What did you hope to accomplish wih these captions? Why didn't you go to Uncyclopedia to make your articles funny? But they probably wouldn't accept on account of how lame it is. -General Q-Nek
:I just realized that by reverting your post, I wasn't following my own advice. Most people here like the jokes, if you don't like them start your own Transformers related wiki. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:31, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::Heck, go help the Wikia. Goodness knows they need it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::But the Wikia also has jokes on it, so it won't help our humourless anon at all! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:43, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::An entire wiki delivered completely seriously would be monotonous. As the [[Transformers Wiki:Caption]] page explains, serious captions tend to be redundant, and since Transformers is a (mostly) light-hearted kids' franchise, we might as well have fun with it. Captions are also a reward for users who are frequently helpful. And Uncyclopedia is different; their wiki is devoted entirely to nonsense, and for the most part we deliver actual information in addition to these funny captions and sometimes comments. That's how I see it. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 18:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::To abates, there is some talk at the wikia about getting away from the funny. If our anonymous friend can point to an instance where the humor gets in the way of the information, that particular joke might need to be changed. Otherwise, I've gotta agree with NCZ - it's about giant frickin' robots from outer space, how serious can it really be? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:00, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, what Khajidha said. While I also agree on principle that I think a serious TF wiki is probably pointless, if Wikia has to keep existing at all I'd rather see it finally go in that direction to stop being a fifth-rate copy of us. And our anon here would probably be better served helping the swap there than mouthing at us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Out of the two admins over at the Wikia, at least of them (Xeno) is firmly against losing the humour, so unfortunately I don't think it'll happen while he's in charge. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Pity. I guess Wikia's going to keep going nowhere, then, until they realize that almost everyone who's OK with editing a funny wiki is already here with us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hurr Hurr Hurrr!!! I was just joking! I wanted to see if it would get deleted. The jokes aren't to bad. ( but im still in favor of Uncyclopedia's jokes.) I actually kudos this Wikia when it comes to delivering information. A thousand lamentations. again, I thought this would be deleted, I just wanted to see how often this page would be checked. ( I guess i could of done that more efficiently.)-General Q-Nek

Also, I enjoy how calm people were when replying. I wish I had some way of helping, but I'm more of novice to the deep Transformer knowledge.-General Q-Nek
:People commenting on the humor is a semi-frequent thing, so... you get used to hauling out the counterarguments.
:As for how often pages get checked, most of the regulars keep frequent tabs on everything. If you want to track changes to any specific pages, you can create an account and add pages to your watchlist. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:24, 26 June 2010 (EDT)

Interesting, thanks for the info!-General Q-Nek

=="Games" vs. "Fiction"==
I noticed in [[Optimus Prime (Prime)]] that info from ''Exodus'' is filed under "Fiction", while ''War for Cyberton'' and ''Cybertron Adventures'' is in a separate "Games" section. I didn't think this was how we did things, so I was going to put everything under "Fiction" and do away with "Games", but I double-checked some movieverse articles to be sure, and lo and behold "Games" is separate there too (such as in [[Shockwave (Movie)]]). This was an explicit change - looking in the history, the Shockwave article used to have an all-inclusive "Fiction" section. Why was this changed? Games are fiction too. I see absolutely no reason to separate them, any more than we would separate the ''Find Your Fate'' books. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:48, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
: Splitting off video game information helps pages from getting too unwieldy. Pages such as [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s are much more readable this way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:51, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::That seems really arbitrary to me. I guess there's little harm done in doing that to Cheetor's page, since the BW games are so story-light and have no impact on other fiction. But for TF:Prime it seems anti-informative: Unlike the BW games, WfC is a defining element of the larger novel/cartoon storyline. Shunting it off into a "Games" ghetto breaks up the information flow pointlessly. I think a "Games" section should be the exception, not the rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:59, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::I'd actually treat WFC as the exception. It is the only video game that ever "mattered" from a story perspective. With that in mind, I would include it within Fiction. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:02, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::::I'd say its fiction matters very little, since the novel ''Exodus'' includes its events and supercedes it, since it's apparently written straight from the new "Prime" story bible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:39, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The Movieverse games are pretty story-heavy. If you look at [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], the game writeups are substantial, and there's nothing more superfluous about their continuities than the Titan comics or the Cyber Mission cartoons, which of course ''are'' included in "Fiction". I agree with the general principle that unwieldiness is a problem worth addressing, but this is an incredibly arbitrary way to fight it as an across-the-board rule. Scalpels and hammers and all that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::I think I was the one who started separating them as I wrote the sections. I mainly did it for layout reasons (I prefer to make separate sections clearly defined), and I figure that given video games are usually the least-edited types of articles on this wiki, they were considered to be a lesser form of fiction than other stuff (as seen by Walky's comment about it not mattering). Also, until WFC, video game fiction tended to be splinter continuities. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Walky's point--and it is a pertinent one, that I hadn't considered--is that in time WFC could prove to be just as much a splinter continuity. Exodus appears to be the "real" story--it certainly includes more concepts, more back history, and more of the developing brand structure that Aaron discussed in his "Once Upon A Time On Cybertron" shpiel at Botcon. WFC might differ from this "core" story the same way basically all the other games differ from theirs--and most of us ''at this point in time'' see it the other way around because we've been hearing about WFC as being the next main fiction product in and of itself since about last December, whereas ''Exodus'' was announced much more recently, seemingly out-of-the-blue, and had no advance samples / screenshots / P.R. that could compare with the WFC blitz. In other words, they treated the "real" story as an afterthought, probably because they know young kids are more into gaming than books, but in the long run WFC's fiction will matter for less. So... uhh... maybe it should stay in "Games" after all? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:44, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Sure, I get that. Even accepting that Exodus is going to be dominant (which at the moment is still a guess, albeit an educated one), I really dislike the idea of game-fiction being walled off by default just because of its medium. It's like we're saying that games ''can't'' matter. If we're going to start making value judgements about which fiction is primary and which is of secondary notice - not a bad idea, mind - I think we should do it right and apply it across the board. Like I said above, there's no real difference in those terms between the movieverse games and the Titan comics, so if one deserves to be sectioned off, then so does the other. I could see dividing the "Fiction" section between "Core continuities" and "Offshoots & micro-continuities", allowing the writeups on the movies + IDW comics to be read through without interruption. That could also help out some of our runaway G1 pages. But as it is now, picking on games is just a half-measure to muddled and weirdly prejudicial effect. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:28, 4 July 2010 (EDT)

==Hall of Fame "faction" markers?==
It dawns on me that perhaps up in the top-right with the other faction markers, we should have something indicating that this person/character is now part of the Transformers Hall of Fame. Perhaps a silver Matrix, to go along with the trophies from BC. Of course, the way Hasbro sees characters, we'd be giving this tag to four different Bumblebees, but still. I think it'd be a nice addition. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:05, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:Taking the fact that they're all one character in Hasbro's eyes, should we tag the disambiguation page as well? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::No, because that's not strictly true. Predacon Megatron is apparently considered a separate "entity" from G1/Movie/Animated/Prime Megatron. Mini-Con Shockwave certainly wouldn't be considered the same as G1/En/Movie/Prime Shockwave. And let's not even go into the problems raised by putting it on the "Dinobot" disambig. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Point. But how far do we go with each "character"? Does RID count? It got no love during the clip shows. What about the Optimus cloned and tortured to become Nemesis Prime? What about Shattered Glass? If we limit ourselves to what Hasbro showed in the clip shows, then we would lose Animated Grimlock, had he won. So how far to go with this? Just hit the big ones (G1/UT/Movie/Animted/Prime) and be done with it, or go further? I just want to see this get fleshed out before we start. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::SG Prime actually was in the display case and apparently "is" Optimus Prime as far as the Hall is concerned. Yeah. So moving forward, I would suggest making a parallel structure for everybody involved: that is, if ANYBODY got a SG / UT / whatever version as "themselves," then everybody else could be seen as getting it too and, thus, SG Grimlock is "himself" and would have gotten the Matrix icon.
::::The RID thing bugs me--need to look more closely at those Hall display pics and see if there was ANY relevant merch in there at all. If it wasn't.... I guess we really would leave them out. It's no harder to see RID Megs and UT Megs as "being" "the" Megatron, but... this is an area where we shouldn't try to make the rules. I just wish the people who did make them had been more consistent about it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:56, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Nope, nuttin' there from RID. I looked back through the display pics. Everybody has the extended G1-iverse plus Movie and Animated. Two had UT and one had SG. I guess those are the "favored" continuities and the ones in which their character analogues would get whatever icon we choose to give. And as Siph said, there was no display "crossover" from Beasts to anywhere else, so Optimus Primal isn't Optimus Prime and we are spared that degree of headache. Though here's another one: even though Hasbro had full access to the toys, they DIDN'T include Generations Prime/Megs/BB in the displays, so does that mean the Prime characters are not "themselves"? But Shattered Glass IS? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I bet RID clips didn't show up because of the usual Disney stuff. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:29, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I think you are over thinking it. The thing to ask yourself is, would Hasbro even consider RID Prime or Predacon Megatron for a spot of their own in the Hall of Fame? No, probably not, since "Optimus Prime" and "Megatron" pretty much covers them. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
I would extend this to also putting gold Matrix icons on the real-life people that got hall-of-famed.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:47, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:I concur. At least that's easy. We don't have multiple Peter Cullen articles floating around here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:49, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:For an image, how about the [[:Image:BotCon2010-HOFkeepsake.jpg|silhouette of the statue seen here]]? It could be cleaned up a bit and made black and white. It could also be a little larger than our current icons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:54, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::That is totally not going to be recognizable at faction icon size.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:55, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
[[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|thumb|right]]
It'll have to wait until I get home from work tonight, but I feel confident I could make an icon based off of the stylized Matrix and starburst circle around it that the tops of the trophies had. I'll post it here once I have it done, and we can tweak it if we don't like it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:Alright, here's my first stab at it. If it were faction-icon sized, it'd look like this: [[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|30px]]

:Whaddaya think? Will that hold up to being recolored gold and silver?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:07, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::Hot damn, looks good to me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:33, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::Looks great! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:40, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Alright, the factions template code for these are "hofgold" and "hofsilver". I've tagged all the real-life inductees, as well as put a silver icon on Dinobot, but now I'm heading out to do a grocery run. Anybody should be able to tag the rest now, but I'll work on tagging some when I get back if there are any left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:53, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== The 11000th article ==

I think was [[Assembly]]. Wheeeee! Sorry, Irvine, you missed it by one... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)

== BigBadToyStore ==

Does that deserve an article yet? (maybe to go in the "Retailers" category) They got their first Hasbro exclusive (see http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=has19150&mode=retail). [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:02, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== What's Canon For Each Continuity ==

OK, after watching one seriously stupid and quite frankly embarrassing mess of a thread on the Allspark, I feel a need to say something. Namely that I'm really tired of our tendency to apply cross-continuity retcons all over the place.

Yes, everything official is canon for some continuity. But the key here is SOME CONTINUITY. I think we need to stop treating any details that take place in one continuity as if they definitely for sure affect another separate continuity. We need to start dropping the 100% in-universe conceit just a little and acknowledging the real-life reality of things. Namely that even if elements of one continuity are borrowed into another, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers of that continuity borrowed from have to acknowledge it in their own storyline. In fact, in some cases they even explicitly don't.

Just to borrow one scenario, every time we go "Oh, well, this event that happened in an Animated book/FunPub story uses some Movie concept, so obviously it's now canon for the Movie fiction too!" we just confuse the matter by presenting as canon for the Movie continuity things that have not actually happened in the actual Movie fiction, and may never actually happen in the future. Since the Movie writers--to be quite blunt and bringing in a dose of cold hard reality--probably do not know or care what an Animated reference or a FunPub story have done in their universe.

I'm not saying we shouldn't document this sort of cross-continuity mention at all, but merging pages based on it and writing it up in the main continuity sections and all that, well, it's just really getting to the point of being stupid and confusing. I'm starting to feel like, instead of getting to just write stuff up based on what happened in the actual fiction for each continuity, or what the writers who are actually in charge of writing each continuity actually said about their own continuity, now I gotta worry about mind-reading the wiki's pet fanon theories about which things that were never meant to be related by the actual authors go together after all.

And when it leads to things like some of us on the forums actually trying to tell the authors that we know better than they do about what they have planned for ''their own storylines''... just, come on people.

Yeah, I know I'm probably the only person who actually feels this way and you're just going to heap insults on me, but I'm just tired of this, especially to the degrees it's been going on lately. It makes the wiki confusing and ridiculous for me to both read and edit, especially when done in the sheer volume it's been done lately, and I don't like being in the position of feeling this negatively towards our setup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:22, 5 July 2010 (EDT)

:This is a little too generic a rant to be helpful. Obviously, you're talking about the Sideways merger. What else, specifically, is being affected by this sort of thing? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:32, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::And Alignment supposedly being canon. And the renaming of the G1 characters. And merging Alpha Trion's pages. And really the whole multiversal singularity in general and everything related to that. And... etc. etc. (At least the whole thing with Sentinel Major was finally stopped by the affected author in question putting his foot down and people eventually relenting.) It's been bugging me for a while, but the mess lately was really kind of just the last straw where it tipped into "OK, this is just starting to get unignorably dumb" territory. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:50, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Whatever Hasbro approves of is canon. It doesn't matter if people are annoyed by it or it goes against original authorial intent. Transformers is Hasbro's property and if they sign their name off on something, it is canon.

Talk:Optimus Prime (WFC)

2010-07-06T02:28:04Z

173.71.105.23:

This disambig tag fills me with glee. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 13:12, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:Though why people find this funny confuses me. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:22, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::I just imagine [[Shrapnel (G1)|Shrapnel]] saying it, it. Or would that be Optimus Prime (Prime), (Prime)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:34, 29 June 2010 (EDT)

I guess the archivist thing is from Exodus? 'cause in the WfC game he instead mentions having been a dock worker.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 14:44, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::When did he mention that? I honestly don't remember him saying that, but my memory is not exactly something to go on. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:06, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::It's during the in-game banter, I'd say during the second autobot chapter but could be the third. If memory serves, a teammate voices his approval of Optimus' taking matters in his own hands and acting like a leader and Optimus retorts as soon as the war's over he'll go back to working at the docks. [[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 03:47, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
: Yay, more inconsistencies! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:46, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::And I thought nothing could be more inconsistent with established continuity than AHM. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:49, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::And is it 100 percent certain the Optimus in WFC and the one in Prime will be the same guy, cause I've been tracking the news, and beyond a lot of speculation and vague suggestion, nothing seems confirmed [[Special:Contributions/148.197.8.240|148.197.8.240]] 00.01 30 Jube 2010
::::Everyone at Hasbro sure seems to think so. ''Exodus'', which is written apparently from the ''Prime'' show backstory, includes the events of WFC loosely within its second half. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:11, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Even if they're not in the exact same universe, they're certainly in the same continuity family, so they'd get the same page. Just as Sunbow Prime and IDW Prime are both on the G1 page.[[User:Kaje|Kaje]] 19:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::And there are others. Well, I haven't read Exodus but based on the summary on this wiki it's more like two different stories that reach the same end point. For one, in WfC Optimus doesn't become a Prime at the beginning of the war, but after Zeta's death, mere days before the evacuation. And the Matrix is introduced in a completely different way, possibly doesnt even ''exist'' until the end of chapter 8. [[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 08:29, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Exodus tries to have it both ways. Once you get to the end of the book and Sentinel dies, Optimus gets the Matrix then, and Alpha Trion notes that Prime wasn't truly a Prime until this moment, regardless of what the council said. So he was dubbed a Prime by the council at the beginning, but it wasn't really true until just before they left Earth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:34, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I guess it's an honorable fix, yet still doesn't mesh, mind you. In the game it's mentioned Optimus first refused to be a Prime, which is why he doesn't have the title (whether or not this landed Zeta the job is unclear since the way they word it at times I may almost think they could have several Primes at once) and the Matrix is unrelated to the Council and the Prime title they bestow.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 08:42, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Why don't we just change the opening to "The young bot who would become Optimus Prime" rather than have it at Optimus or Orion Pax, and wait until Prime premiers and see if it ever goes with one or the other?

In the game, it's Optimus, not Orion Pax. Does the book override the game, or vice versa?
-ThiAthEhn
: The events of the game happen within the last half of the novel, after Optimus has stopped being Orion Pax. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:52, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::The tricky bit is still that the game starts before he decides to become Optimus Prime, ie in the novel he goes from Orion Pax to Optimus Prime, while in the game he goes from Optimus to Optimus Prime.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 12:52, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Yeah, the article's current bio doesn't take into account the WFC game at all. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:59, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Hmm. The game does have a scene where Megatron and Optimus talk about something that happened between them before the game started. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)

== So, do we have to move WFC stuff I've written to new character articles? ==

Argh. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:48, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:Just like I predicted, yes. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 14:00, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::I'm too tired to clean this giant mess right now. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:01, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

== Profile Should Be Rewritten ==

The Character profile here right now is all Exodus stuff. But almost all of it is stuff that is totally different in WfC. The Character profiles are supposed to be generic and fit all version of the character. I think this one needs to be moved to the Exodus sub-section and a new more general Prime (Prime) (that's fun) profile written, Yes?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:57, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:I agree, it's a bit too specific about the Exodus stuff considering what a big deal WFC is as a form of Prime media. I believe the reason it totally lacks WFC stuff is because Walky wrote it and apparently hasn't played WFC yet. Well, I presume on the last, anyway. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:55, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::I guess nobody cares then. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:57, 4 July 2010 (EDT)

== G1==

So Exodus is based off the prime cartoon but war for cybertron is a prequel to g1.And if you disagree hasbro themselves sayed that. {{unsigned|98.204.17.1}}
:Yes, it is, no it isn't, no they haven't, sign your posts, Do The Research. Thank you for your time. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:41, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::I wouldn't jump to conclusions right now. Videogames based on franchises tend to get retconned, like what happened to the Ultimate Spider-Man video game. Also, the show has been described as a mix of Animated and Live-Action films, which the game doesn't really reflect. If we are going to reclassify characters we should use something like "Optimus Prime (WFC)" until everything gets really confirmed.[[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 22:19, 5 July 2010 (EDT)

Spontaneous recoloration

2010-07-05T20:05:48Z

173.71.105.23: /* Cybertron */

{{disambig2|the process of a Transformer spontaneously changing color|other instances of color changing|color change (disambiguation)}}

{{quote|In some cases, the extreme power surge during Powerlinking can result in temporary or even permanent discoloration of a Transformer's metallic skin.|"Powerlink Process"|[[More Than Meets The Eye (Armada)|More Than Meets The Eye: Armada]]}}

'''Spontaneous recoloration''' refers to the temporary or permanent alternation of a [[Transformer]]'s [[exostructure]], usually in response to an energy surge. Usually (but not always) this external color change signifies a higher energy-state within the Transformer's body accompanied by increased (or even entirely new)<ref>Such as [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream's]] Null Beam Cannon in the [[Energon (Energon)|Energon]] episode [[Wishes]].</ref> abilities.

Spontaneous recoloration is similar to [[reformatting]]. ''Unlike'' reformatting, which wreaks wholesale physical alterations to the transformer's physical form, recoloring is completely cosmetic.

For unknown reasons, spontaneous recoloration does not uniformly re-tint existing surface pigments, but may result in completely different color arrangements, or even add entirely new "badass" detailing, such as flames or racing stripes.

Recoloration should not be confused with surface coatings such as [[Electrum]] or a [[silver coat]].

==Temporary recoloration==
[[Image:Sshot-rid-27-1.jpg|thumb|right|150px|''People try to put us down (spon-tan-e-ous coloration!) cause our colors change around (spon-tan-e-ous coloration!)'']]

* The [[Autobot Brothers]]' [[Super Mode]]
** [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]]
** [[X-Brawn]]
** [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]]
* [[Lioconvoy|The Green Warrior]]
* [[Hot Rod (G1)|Crystal Rodimus]]
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)]]

==Permanent recoloration==
===Beast Wars===
*[[Ramulus]]

===Armada===
Characters recolored due to a [[Mini-Con]] [[Puppet|supplied upgrade]]:
*[[Megatron (Armada)]]
*[[Starscream (Armada)]]
*[[Hot Shot (Armada)]]
*[[Red Alert (Armada)]]
*[[Demolishor (Armada)]]

===Energon===
Characters recolored as the result of [[Optimus Supreme|Primus' energy pulse]].
{{note|Within Hasbro's toyline, many of these [[redeco|recolors]] represent different characters, rather than spontaneous recoloration.}}
*[[Bulkhead (Energon)]]
*[[Cliffjumper (Energon)]]
*[[Landmine (Energon)]]
*[[Ironhide (Energon)]]
*[[Hot Shot (Armada)#Energon|Hot Shot]]
*[[Jetfire (Armada)#Energon|Jetfire]]

Characters recolored as the result of other events:
*[[Megatron (Armada)#Energon|Megatron]] (again)

===Cybertron===
*[[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]]
*[[Megatron (Armada)#Cybertron|Megatron]] (yet again)

{{stub}}

==See Also==
* [[Burning Justice]]

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]

Talk:Prime timeline

2010-07-05T18:20:19Z

173.71.105.23:

Similar to how we did one for IDW, this would be a pretty good way to bottom-line how Prime is a new continuity, and highlight the elements it takes from past ones.

From how far I've read through Exodus right now, the main transplanted things I see are:
*The War of the Primes, where Megatronus rebels and becomes the Fallen.
*The Golden Age of Cybertron, where a Galaxy Force style colonization occurs, but is eventually abandoned along with the space bridge network that drove it.
*The Elite Guard, the pre-war unit from which Sentinel (Zeta) Prime emerged.
*The AllSpark, and Bumblebee's facing of Megatron at Tyger Pax so that Optimus Prime could jettison it into space, at the cost of Bumblebee's voicebox.

So what do you guys think? Do we have enough info to start working on this? Yeah Exodus is kind of painful to read, but it's also fairly information-dense.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:Will the WFC video game be included in this? The events are generally very similar, but doesn't fit precisely due to, I presume, Hasbro tweaking the storyline while High Moon were stuck with an earlier draft. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:16, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::I feel like it would be better to wait for the TV show so we can see if it more closely hews to Exodus or WFC, or neither.

Autobot

2010-07-04T22:35:57Z

173.71.105.23: /* Generation 1 cartoon */

{{factions|autobot|autobotg2|ttautobot|sgAutobot|autobotfilm}}
{{disambig2|the faction|Generation 2 watch-Autobot|Autobot (G2)}}
[[Image:Autobot symbol.png|right|250px|thumb|If you don't recognize this symbol, what the heck are you doing here?]]

{{quote|[['Til all are one]].|Autobot rally cry|''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''}}

The '''Autobots''' are one of the primary factions in the [[Transformer]]s mythos. They usually find themselves defending both their own race and other species against the [[Decepticon]]s and upholding justice and freedom throughout the galaxy.

They are considered "the good guys" in most, but not in [[Shattered Glass (franchise)|all]] Transformers stories.

A generally heroic, honorable group, they tend to be dedicated to peace, and feel a need to protect other races from the Decepticons. As a result, they are usually Transformers who change into non-combat oriented alternate modes such as domestic vehicles, cars, trucks, or rescue vehicles. This is not ''always'' the case, however, as their ranks certainly contain ne'er-do-wells, malcontents, and unsavory types, and the necessities of war have led many to adopt more combat-oriented alternate forms. While the Autobots have usually found themselves outnumbered by the Decepticons, the Autobots have always had home-field advantage, having not only the humans' military support, but also having more places on Earth to fall back on, while the Decepticons are entirely unwelcome on Earth.

Key concepts that repeat throughout most continuities are the use of the name [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] (or a variation thereof) to denote Autobot leadership, and the existence of an artifact of great life-giving power, usually referred to as a "[[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]]", traditionally held by their leader.

The collective noun for Autobots (like ''pride of lions'', ''murder of crows'', or ''bewilderment of Architects'') is an "exaltation."<ref><tt>...more dangerous than an exaltation of Autobots.</tt> — [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]], [[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac]] (2009) p 101</ref>

:''Japanese name:'' '''Cybertron''' (サイバトロン ''Saibatoron'')
:''Hungarian name:'' '''Autobotok'''
:''Italian name:'' '''Autorobot'''
:''Polish name:'' '''Autoboty'''
:''Portuguese name (Portugal comic):'' '''Autobóticos'''
:''Portuguese name (Brazil comic):'' '''Optimus'''

==Generation 1 / Beast Era==
===Marvel comics continuity===
====Generation 1 comics====
[[Image:Primag2.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The birth of Prima, the first Autobot. Just before Primus went around handing out cigars.]]
In the beginning [[Primus]] created the Transformers, a race of living robots that could change their bodies into the likeness of weapons, vehicles, and machinery, and all Transformers were Autobots, and he saw that they were good. The Autobot symbol (or [[Autobrand]] as it is sometimes called) was based on the face of the [[Last Autobot]], the sleeping guardian Primus left for the day when his plans came to fruition.

At first Autobot numbers were small (a mere [[Thirteen original Transformers|13]] began things), but through [[Reproduction|budding]] they expanded their race to fill the planet. When the correct level of population was reached, a mechanism triggered and memory of the process was wiped from the Transformers minds. At some point in these early days Unicron was able to reach through the mental link he shared with Primus and sow the seeds of corruption in a few Autobots, though this dark cult of Unicron would not bear fruit for a long time.

Eons passed in relative peace. Autobot society formed its own traditions, institutions, city-states and politics. From a human perspective this society resembled that of ancient Rome. [[Senate|Senators]] and [[Emirates]] governed wisely or corruptly, priests worshipped Primus and passed his holy Matrix to the chosen bearer (the lineage: [[Prima]] to [[Prime Nova]], Prime Nova to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]), gladiatorial games were held for sport and entertainment, and above it all the [[Overlord (rank)|Overlords]] ruled.

It was only with the advent of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] at the end of the [[Golden Age]], coinciding with the death of the last hereditary Overlord, and the subsequent rise of the Decepticons, that the words "Autobot" and "Transformer" ceased being necessary synonyms and the population was divided by war.

[[Image:Optimusprimeg1marvelfirst.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Optimus Prime appears to turn the tide.]]
In the early days of the war the Autobots were overwhelmed by the Decepticon war machine. They fell back again and again and for a while it looked like the war would be quickly lost... and then a young warrior rose from their ranks and rallied the troops to fight back. He made his reputation by denying Megatron access to the [[Underbase]], soon rose to command the Autobots' elite air corps, and then, at last, was granted full command of all Autobot armies. [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] had turned the tide, and under his leadership the Autobots fought back until Megatron's war machine was stalled out and stalemated.

The war ground on until Autobot scientists detected that their planet's path was going to pass through a deadly asteroid belt. Putting the planet-wide conflict aside for the moment they turned their attention to planetary salvation and the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] was built.

[[Image:Autobotline.gif|left|400px|thumb|And now, shadow puppet theatre.]]
Optimus and a crew of his best soldiers took the Ark into space and cleared a path for the planet through the asteroid field. Unfortunately with their power depleted from that Herculean task they were then ambushed by Megatron and his Decepticons. The crews of both ships were lost to history.

Without Megatron or Prime the pace of the war slowed considerably. Still, fighting continued and both sides dug in for a long bitter struggle. In Prime’s absence [[Emirate Xaaron]] led the Autobot forces in their struggle to retake their homeworld.

[[Image:Autobots-disintegratedcircuits1.jpg|thumb|right|250px| ]]

The next four million years passed quickly (as it is wont to do) and without any major alteration (only a general degradation) of the situation. Finally news came to Cybertron: Optimus Prime and his forces lived! Yet this news came at a steep price, as it meant a new front had opened in the war. Optimus Prime and his forces fought the Decepticons on the distant world of Earth, while Xaaron, his [[Wrecker]]s, and others carried on the war for Cybertron.

Despite Prime's dedication to protecting Earth, Autobot/Human relations were not good. Humanity viewed all Transformers as threats and attacked any they discovered regardless of faction. Industrialist [[G.B. Blackrock]] tried to inform the public that there were two factions, with the Autobots being the benign faction, but the [[Intelligence and Information Institute]], the government agency tasked with countering the Transformers, was either unable or unwilling to distinguish between factions.

Not long after his survival was discovered, tragedy struck and Optimus Prime was killed on Earth. The Dinobot commander [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] took on the leadership of Prime's soldiers, though he favored the abandonment of Earth and a renewed focus on Cybertron.

At roughly the same time, the great Autobot warrior [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] reached an important decision. He was tired of the war and if he could not end it he would leave it behind. Gathering a large following of likeminded warriors he left Cybertron for the world of Nebulos in hopes of a new and peaceful life. This was not to be. Decepticons followed Maximus and opened a third front to the war. In the end both factions abandoned Nebulos and Maximus led them to Earth to unite with the forces under Optimus Prime.

[[Image:LastAutobot.jpg|left|150px|thumb|From Prima to Last Autobot, we come full circle. You may close your notebooks.]]
However, when they arrived they discovered Prime dead and Grimlock less than welcoming. Grimlock and Maximus attempted to establish a single Autobot leader with trial by combat, but were interrupted by a devastating Decepticon attack. The upside of it all was that they ended up putting their differences aside and Optimus Prime was soon reborn to take up leadership of the Earth-based forces once again.

Not long after, a dimensional transporter accident led to the rediscovery and accidental disturbance of Primus deep in the center of Cybertron. The Autobots learned that their ancient myths about Primus were the truth, and Unicron was now coming for them. Since the Creation Matrix had been lost and corrupted, Optimus Prime offered the Autobots' unconditional surrender to the Decepticons in the hopes that this would lead the two factions to stand together against the coming threat. It did, and the Matrix was retrieved and purified in time to stop Unicron. Both Optimus Prime and Emirate Xaaron were killed in the battle, and Grimlock ascended to Autobot leadership again, this time over all Autobots.

The alliance with the Decepticons would be short lived. Cybertron appeared to be destroying itself and the Decepticons betrayed the Autobots, leaving them to die with their world. Grimlock’s leadership led to the Autobots escaping that trap, and walking right into a different one. Oops. Thankfully, the awakening of the Last Autobot saved Cybertron and led to the rebirth of Optimus Prime, who reclaimed Autobot leadership and beat the Decepticons once and for all.

''(From this point both the Marvel Generation 2 and the Fun Publication's Classics comics continue the story in separate and mutually exclusive directions.)''

====Generation 2 comic====
The war finally over, most of the Autobots retired to the revived and prosperous Cybertron. It wasn't to last. Grimlock led a crew of Autobots not ready to take a vacation and put their feet up to try and track down any remaining Decepticon trouble. They found more than they could imagine as they discovered a vast and militant Empire constructed across the stars by Decepticons who left Cybertron long ago.

At the same time, Megatron reared his head again on Earth and soon the surviving Decepticons from the end of the war joined him, intent on restarting the war on Earth. It was not long before Decepticons and Autobots were teamed up against the forces of the Cybertronian Empire. Though this new conflict never touched the revived Cybertron, Earth was devastated by it. The Bot/Con alliance won, but how long this new alliance would last and what [[Liege Maximo|new threats]] awaited remained a question.

====Classics====
{{note|''Classics'' takes place in a [[splinter timeline]] of the Marvel continuity, ignoring ''Generation Two'' and Marvel UK "future" stories}}

{{stub}}

===Generation 1 cartoon===
[[Image:Aubotot gladiator.jpg|right|200px|thumb|[[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]], a Quint slave robot who would later become Autobot leader and bearer of the Matrix.]]
The Autobots originated as non-living machines, specifically the [[Quintesson]]s' domestic slave robot line. The Autobot symbol was in fact the original Quintesson slave brand. They generally have blue glowing optics. ''(Though the series did not always abide by it, there was some attempt to establish the fact that Autobots could not fly unaided in robot mode while the Decepticons generally could).''

Having achieved sentience and emotion against their creator's expectations, they rebelled and together with the Quintessons' military hardware (the future Decepticons) achieved freedom and kicked their masters to the curb. ''(Of note: no Decepticons are seen in the bits of the rebellion we are witness to, but it is presumed they took part nonetheless.)''

For a time peace reigned. But the military hardware grew restless and eventually declared war on their peace-loving brothers and sisters. During this dark time many ships of Autobot refugees left Cybertron to try to form peaceful colonies elsewhere in the universe.

Eventually the millitary robots were defeated when the Autobots invented the art of [[transforming]]. A new peace settled over Cybertron and what became known as the [[Golden Age]] began. This age was characterized by peace, prosperity, and an abundance of energy such that the metal of the whole planet literally glowed golden with its power. [[Guardian robot]]s patrolled the planet and helped keep the peace.

But eventually the Decepticons acquired the art of transforming as well. Megatron was born and under his leadership they rose up against the Autobots once more. U-Haul Robot was killed by Megatron and passed the Matrix of Leadership to [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]] who held it safe until a young robot named Orion Pax was injured in one of Megatron's raids and rebuilt by Trion into the first of a new breed of Autobots specifically designed to combat the Decepticons. Thus Optimus Prime was born and under his leadership the Decepticons were stalemated.

The war raged on and eventually drained the entire planet of its once-rich sources of energy, leaving it a damaged, burnt-out gray husk of its former self. With no other choice the Autobots constructed the Ark, designed to fly Optimus Prime and his comrades to other planets in the search for new sources of energy.

The Ark launch bay was attacked just prior to lift-off and the [[Female Autobots]] under the command of [[Elita One]] vanished in the explosions. They were presumed destroyed by both sides, but actually survived to continue underground operations against Shockwave's regime on Cybertron.

[[Image:CosmicRust-BigGroup.jpg|left|300px|thumb|"Incompetent fools! There's only like seven Decepticons and fifty of us!"]]
Ambushed by the Decepticons, the Ark crashed into a nearby planet, named [[Earth]]. Crashing into a volcano, the impact rendered all the passengers, including members of both factions, into [[stasis lock]]. They were brought back online when the volcano erupted, and immediately resumed combat, this time on Earth.

The Autobots dedicated themselves to protecting Earth and its inhabitants from Megatron's forces. Their relationship with Earth's human governments and population were generally positive and mutually beneficial.

By 2005, the Decepticons had driven the Autobots from Cybertron, and they were now forced to operate out of two bases on Cybertron's moons with a reserve force at [[Autobot City]] on Earth. The Decepticons hijacked a supply shuttle, [[Battle of Autobot City|laying siege to Autobot City]]. The battle saw the deaths of many Autobots, including Optimus Prime, who in turn passed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. However, [[Unicron]] arrived and devoured the two moons. Megatron, who had been reformatted into [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], stole the Matrix from Magnus, intending to use it against Unicron. Galvatron could not open the Matrix, and Unicron proceeded to attack Cybertron, decimating the Decepticon forces on the planet. However, the young Autobot [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] managed to take the Matrix from Galvatron, causing him to become Rodimus Prime. He opened the Matrix, causing Unicron's body to self destruct. Leaderless, the Decepticons fled the planet, and the Autobots reclaimed Cybertron.

The Autobots remained in control of Cybertron for the next few years, slowly working to revitalize their homeworld. They fairly easily fought off feints by the Quintessons and the remaining Decepticon forces. Eventually Optimus Prime was revived and resumed Autobot leadership. It wasn't until Galvatron launched an all out attack on Cybertron's [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] that the balance again threatened to tip the Decepticons' way. Thankfully it turned out all had been arranged by [[Vector Sigma]] to set in motion the repowering of Cybertron. The Decepticons were defeated, and Cybertron glowed golden with energy reborn at last.

''('''Note:''' in Japan, during [[Transformers 2010 (franchise)|Transformers 2010]], the Cybertrons who transformed into automobiles were referred to as a subgroup of the faction called "Autobots".)''

===Beast Wars cartoon===
{{main|Maximal}}

The Autobots won the Great War, and their descendants the [[Maximal]]s succeeded them. It's unclear what happened to the Autobots, though followup series provided more clues.

===Beast Machines cartoon===
[[Image:ProwlMaybe BM.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Where's your Pax Cybertronia now?]]
When [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] subdued Cybertron's population with his [[Transformation lock virus|virus]], he extracted their sparks and used their bodies as raw materials for building [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicons]]. [[Optimus Primal]] and his team discovered a junkyard/factory with acres of these corpses, one of which very clearly bore the Autobot symbol (and an uncanny resemblance to [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]). {{storylink|Revelations Part I: Discovery}} Also, among the [[Vehicon general]]s were the revived Great War veterans [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]] and [[Strika (BM)|Strika]], who may have been Autobots themselves. {{storylink|Sparkwar Pt. I: The Strike}}

===3H comics===
Many of the great Autobot and Decepticon heroes (such as Optimus Prime, Grimlock, Soundwave, and Megatron) retired to a strange quasi-reality called [[J'nwan]]. Almost all who tried to reach J'nwan and seek their aid succumbed to madness, and the ancient heroes did not appreciate being disturbed by any survivors. However, the great figures did eventually decide to fight once more at [[Omega Point]], an event which erased much of the timeline they had come from. It's unclear whether or not J'nwan or the events regarding it remained intact.

===IDW Beast Wars comics===
The three components of the combiner [[Magnaboss]] are the Autobots [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]], and [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]]. They vanished after the [[Pax Cybertronia]] was signed, but it is said they will return in a time of great need. {{storylink|Beast Wars Sourcebook|Beast Wars Sourcebook}}

===DW Generation 1 comic===
[[Image:AutoLitho.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Come on you bots! Do you want to live forever?!?]]
The Autobots arose as the group who sided with Sentinel Prime and the [[Council of Ancients]] and opposed Megatron's desire for the conquest of Cybertron, but their inexperience with warfare led to a serious tactical disadvantage. Sentinel Prime led the war effort for half a million years, until Megatron killed him in combat, hoping to secure the Matrix from him. Sentinel's successor, Optimus Prime, originally decided to evacuate Cybertron, fearing that, even if the Autobots won, Cybertron would be a wasteland. However, a subsequent encounter between Optimus Prime and Megatron, where he learned of the planetary engines the Decepticon leader hoped to power with the Matrix, convinced Prime to remain on Cybertron. {{storylink|The War Within}}

Later, Optimus Prime and Megatron disappeared in a space bridge explosion. Without strong leadership, both sides degenerated into factions. The [[Wrecker]]s and the [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] broke off from the main Autobot army, which was led by Prowl {{storylink|The War Within: The Dark Ages}}. After [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] took control of the Autobots, he reunified the factions, and manage to negotiate a cease-fire with [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave's]] Decepticons and Ratbat's [[Ultracon]]s. However, [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's]] [[Predacon (War Within)|Predacons]] made a last ditch assault, and Megatron suddenly returned leading the [[Aerospace Extermination Squadron]], an army of [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] drones created by the Quintessons. Megatron managed to conquer Cybertron, forcing most of the Autobots into slavery and the escapees into hiding. The period of Autobot enslavement ended when Optimus Prime returned to Cybertron and the Air Warriors were destroyed. ''We don't know how.'' {{storylink|War Within: The Age of Wrath|The War Within: The Age of Wrath}}

Four million years before humans arose, Cybertron was threatened by a massive asteroid. The Autobots developed the ''Ark'' to destroy the asteroid. They were successful, but Megatron attacked with the ''Nemesis''. Both ships crashed on Earth, with both crews aboard the ''Ark''. On Cybertron, Ultra Magnus and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] worked to keep the Autobots from splitting up again. With energon growing scarce, Magnus agreed to work with Shockwave to create the [[Micromaster]]s, downsized Transformers intended for better fuel efficiency. Magnus also launched [[Operation: Containment]], a twofold program intended to prevent the Decepticons from threatening other planets and locating the ''Ark''. {{storylink|Micromasters}} However, with the [[Great Shutdown]], all Transformers entered a period of enforced [[stasis lock]]. Shockwave was the first to be reactivated, and made peace with the Autobots, installing himself as Head of State with an Autobot High Council as a legislature.

On Earth, the Autobots on the ''Ark'' awoke in 1984. Cut off from Cybertron, and seeing that a sentient species had evolved around them, the Autobots resolved to defend Earth from the Decepticons. Over the next fifteen years, the Autobots were largely successful at preventing a Decepticon conquest, while also befriending the [[Witwicky]] family. Eventually, the Autobots allied with the humans and defeated the Decepticons, capturing them. However, rogue elements of the United States Military, apparently being manipulated by Shockwave, sabotaged the ''[[Ark II]]'', capturing several Autobots and most of the Decepticons, until the chief scientist, [[Lazarus|Adam Rook]], went rogue and set himself up as an arms dealer. [[Robert Hallo]], the original mastermind of the conspiracy, used [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] to reactivate Optimus Prime, who revived the Autobots and stopped a reactivated Megatron. {{storylink|Prime Directive}} A year later, Shockwave came to tie up loose ends and acquire the Matrix from Prime. A rebel Autobot cell managed to rescue Prime, who united the other resistance groups, and Shockwave was overthrown, bringing Cybertron under Autobot control. {{storylink|War and Peace}}

===IDW Generation 1 comic===
{{ongoing}}
In somewhat of a twist from other continuities, the early Autobots in [[IDW Publishing|IDW's]] universe were less noble than their counterparts from the others. Millions of years ago, the Autobots were a police force appointed by the [[senate]]. The senate grew corrupt and their Autobot enforcers were seen as little more than thugs. During the closure of an [[Energon (fuel)|energon]]-mining facility, an outspoken miner was beaten to death by an Autobot guard. This sparked a riot, causing the Autobot unit to take even more lives. Some of the surviving miners escaped the captors and went underground and joined the [[gladiatorial combat]] games. Megatron rose as the leader of the games and gathered followers to oppose the hated Autobots, who were led by [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]. Megatron's [[Decepticon]]s eventually defeated Prime and took over the city of [[Kaon]] and started the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]]. {{storylink|Megatron Origin}}

Sentinel was succeeded by an unknown Autobot named Zeta Prime, who was protected from a Deception assassination attempt with Blurr's help, but was eventually killed by Megatron. {{storylink|Spotlight: Blurr}} The Autobots were then led by Optimus Prime and formed into small units to counter the Decepticon units infiltrating various planets. The two sides joined forces to combat [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] and the ensuing battle rendered Cybertron uninhabitable. {{storylink|Stormbringer (comics)|Stormbringer}}

==Robots in Disguise==
Here, the Autobots are the main race on Cybertron, and their enemies are the [[Predacon (RID)|Predacons]]. The Autobots fought in the [[Cybertronian Civil Wars]], presumably against the Predacons. [[Vector Sigma]], the [[Allspark]], chooses which Autobot is to be granted the Matrix and thus the position of commander-in-chief.

The Autobots were already on [[Earth]] when the Predacons arrived, having taken the form of Earth vehicles to work as camouflage and established a [[Space Bridge|Global Space Bridge network]] and a central base monitoring the entire planet.

In their disguises, the Autobots integrated themselves into human society; [[Team Bullet Train]] worked as actual trains, [[X-Brawn]] was owned as a car by [[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]], and Optimus Prime was working for a fire department. This continued after they went public; both [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] and [[Tow-Line (RID)|Tow-Line]], for example, were shown enforcing human laws in an apparently official capacity, suggesting the Autobots had official ties to human authorities.

It's known Optimus fought the Predacons on other worlds, presumably using the same tactics as on Earth.

==Unicron Trilogy==
===Comic continuity===
====Armada====
Originally, the Autobots were not a faction, but the name of a peacekeeping organization; under the command of [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]], they defended [[Cyber City]]. Their headquarters was adorned with the motto "Truth - Justice - Freedom". They were unable to stop the [[Mini-Con]]-powered Decepticons from taking Cyber City, and for a million years they were reduced to a rebel organization desperately trying & failing to protect Cybertron. The reactivation of the Mini-Cons on Earth gave the Autobots an opportunity to gain Mini-Con power of their own, but eventually the Decepticons were beaten not by them, but due to the attack of [[Unicron]].

===Cartoon continuity===
====Armada====
Throughout the Unicron Trilogy, the Autobots switched motives after each major conflict. At first, they were attempting to liberate smaller robots, called [[Mini-Con]]s, from the tyrannical control of [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], who saw them as tools to be used and disposed of when no longer needed. The Autobots followed the Mini-Cons' ship to Earth, where they crashed and eventually continued their battle against the Decepticons (some two million years later. Geez, Megs can hold a grudge).

These two sides would unite to fight the Chaos Bringer, [[Unicron]], when he threatened to devour Cybertron. With Megatron sacrificing himself to save the rest of the Universe, Unicron shut down and was destroyed. The remaining Transformers united as the Autobots, following Megatron's order to assist them in rebuilding Cybertron.

====Energon====
Megatron's final orders to his troops still stood: work with the Autobots. The Decepticons maintained a degree of autonomy, still wearing the faction sigil and often taking military/defensive positions in the growing number of energon-mining colonies, but they were ultimately answerable to Optimus Prime and the Autobots. There were, of course, dissenters, most of whom were captured and imprisoned. For a decade, Autobot and Decepticon worked side-by-side in a somewhat stable truce.

Both sides found themselves the target of attacks from Unicron again; hordes of Terrorcon drones, sent by Alpha Quintesson to steal energon ore with which to revive the now-shattered husk of Unicron. What the alien did not count on was that Megatron's spark had survived within the remains, and was siphoning energon from Unicron's body. Soon the Decepticon leader had revived himself in a new form, driven off Alpha Quintesson, and, along with an elite cadre of soldiers and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of mindless Terrorcon drones, begun his new plans for conquest.

When news of Megatron's return reached Cybertron, hundreds of Decepticons rose up and rebelled, eager to get back to conquering. But having been joined to Unicron for so long apparently had given Megatron a taste of godhood; he had no more interest in amassing a galaxy-spanning army of troops. Countless Decepticons died in the resulting battles, with Megatron more than willing to sacrifice them without a thought to attain ultimate power for himself. As the "Powerlinx Battles" - as they came to be called - came to their climax, Megatron found that his actions and thoughts were being influenced and controlled by the dark spark of Unicron. Unwilling to let Unicron stand in his way, Megatron ultimately sacrificed himself (again) and seemingly destroyed Unicron's spark by plunging himself into a newly-formed energon sun created by Primus.

====Cybertron====
Another ten years after Energon, the energon sun created by Primus was gone, collapsed into the [[Unicron Singularity]], a giant black hole threatening to devour all of existence. In death, Unicron's power to destroy his only opposition - Primus - was greater than ever. The Autobots searched for a method of destroying the Black Hole and found a single answer; the Omega Lock, a powerful artifact linked to the Spark of Primus. With it, the Universe could be saved... or destroyed. Seeing an opportunity to rebuild existence in his own image, Megatron sought out the Omega Lock and the Cyber Planet Keys.

As the two sides battled for the Keys, the Autobots would eventually find all four and use them to revive Primus, but in doing so caused a massive earthquake that began shattering the planet around them.

Or so they thought.

Primus was emerging from Cybertron, awakened from the body he sculpted into a world for his creation. When informed of Unicron's destruction, he was infuriated to find that the universe was out of balance because of a severe lack of evil. Starscream attacked Primus' weakened form, due to the smaller robot stealing a piece of his spark and becoming an even equally huge monster, but was quickly dispatched by his creator. Defeated, Starscream flew off, leaving the Autobots to seal the Black Hole. Once this was accomplished, Galvatron attempted an escape from his fire dimension, but by combining Vector Prime's sword with the Omega Lock, the portal was sealed, and the Autobots returned home in peace.

The remaining Decepticons joined the Autobots, save for four who left Earth to start the New Decepticon Army. Their ship made it to Mars before crashing.

==Live-action film series==
[[Image:Movie Sam Mikaela meettheAutobots.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
The Autobots (autonomous robotic organisms) are the second Cybertronian civilization, being the descendants of the early workers who served the [[Dynasty of Primes]]. Following the outbreak of the war, the Autobots became the Transformers who rallied around [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus]], the last of the Primes, to prevent [[Megatron (Movie)|Protector Megatron]] from claiming the [[AllSpark (Movie)|All Spark]]. They were formed mostly from the [[Science Division]], the [[Security Force]], and what few members of the [[Defense Force]] rejected Megatron's violent ambitions. Although they fought valiantly, the Decepticons were more warlike, and they began to gain ground. In a move to prevent the Decepticons from acquiring the All Spark, Prime sent it hurtling into deep space. Megatron followed, and disappeared. The Autobots then scattered among the universe, searching for the All Spark. {{storylink|Defiance}} {{storylink|Movie Prequel (2007)|Prime Directives}}

Following some twelve thousand years of searching, the Autobots encountered a stranded human vessel in space. Known as [[Ghost One]], the creatures aboard, named humans, revealed that they had developed the ship based on studies from Megatron. Recognizing that Megatron would destroy their world if he came back online, Optimus tried to send them back to Earth, but they sacrificed their lives to save Optimus from [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]. Already suspecting that the All Spark was on their homeworld, the Autobots made efforts to find [[Earth]]. {{storylink|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

Eventually, the Autobots made their way to Earth, discovering a link to the All Spark with [[Sam Witwicky]]. The Autobot [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] came into Sam's possession, and contacted Optimus Prime. Prime came to Earth with [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]], and [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] to retrieve the All Spark and eliminate Megatron, fearing the Decepticon would use the Cube to raise an army from human technology. However, Starscream's retrieval team was also on Earth, having come for the All Spark. The Autobots were further hampered by [[Sector Seven]], the human agency tasked with dealing with Transformers. Eventually forming a brief truce with Sector Seven and a group of Army Rangers who had encountered [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] and [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]], the Autobots fought off the Decepticons in [[Mission City]], which saw the deaths of Megatron, Blackout, [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]], and [[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl]], but Jazz was killed and the All Spark destroyed when Sam Witwicky extinguished Megatron's spark. Without a means to restore Cybertron, the Autobots decided to remain on Earth, and Optimus Prime sent a message into space for Autobots to come and protect their new home and newfound allies in humanity. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)|Transformers}}

Over the next two years, more Autobots began making their way to Earth, such as [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Sideswipe (Movie)|Sideswipe]], [[Jolt (Movie)|Jolt]], [[Salvage (Movie)|Salvage]], and others, joining a human military force known as [[NEST]]. Under the classified Autobot Alien cooperation act, the Autobots entrusted the remaining All Spark shard to humanity and gave them intelligence about the Decepticons they were facing. However, the Autobots refused to share weapons technology with humanity, knowing their history internecine warfare. {{storylink|Alliance}} {{storylink|The Veiled Threat}}

In 2009, NEST had five encounters with the Decepticons on different continents, indicating that the Decepticons were searching for something. During a sweep of [[Shanghai]], NEST encountered [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] and [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]], who caused substantial damage to the city during their attempts to escape. Although they were neutralized, Demolishor relayed a warning to Optimus Prime: "[[The Fallen]] will rise again". Following this, NEST returned to their base of operations at [[Diego Garcia]], where they relayed the warning to [[Morshower|General Morshower]] and [[Theodore Galloway|Director Galloway]]. Having been appointed liaison by the President, Galloway concluded that the Decepticons only interest in Earth was to hunt down the Autobots. Unfortunately, Galloway also revealed both Megatron's resting place and the presence of the shard on Diego Garica. [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] was listening to the briefing, and directed [[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage]] and the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]]s to raise Megatron. Meeting with his master, The Fallen, Megatron was commanded to retrieve Sam Witwicky, who had absorbed the knowledge of the AllSpark, and kill Optimus Prime, the only one who could defeat The Fallen. Optimus died helping Sam escape, and the Decepticons launched multiple attacks to have the humans turn Sam over to them. Galloway used the attacks as an excuse to have himself placed in charge of NEST and place the Autobots under guard.

Meanwhile, Sam, his girlfriend [[Mikaela Banes]], and his roommate [[Leo Spitz]] were being hidden by Bumblebee and the Twins [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]], and with help from [[Seymour Simmons]] of Sector Seven, discovered Decepticon-turned-Autobot [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]], who told them that the Fallen, one of the founders of the Dynasty of Primes, was looking for the Matrix of Leadership needed to activate the solar harvester, which would destroy Earth's sun and make energon. Sam was able to find the Matrix and use it to revive Optimus Prime, who, armed with the knowledge of his family and parts from the dead Jetfire, managed to destroy the harvester and kill the Fallen, saving Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

{{note|In the movie it is Ratchet who provides the name "Autobot", claiming it is an abbreviation after Optimus' line, "We are autonomous robotic organisms from the planet Cybertron". Seeing as how Decepticons also fit this description, this may imply that "Autobot" is the species name for the Transformers. In a departure from previous Transformers incarnations, Japan used the name "Autobots" for this franchise, rather than "Cybertrons".<ref>[http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/movie/autobots.html Movie Autobots toy listing on Takaratomy.com]</ref>}}

==Animated==
The Autobots in the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated continuity]] won the [[Great War (Animated)|Great War]] with the Decepticons because of three things: the Autobot-exclusive [[space bridge]] technology, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Project Omega]], and by sending the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] into space to keep the Decepticons from getting it. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}} Since then [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] has known peace under the rule of the [[Autobot High Council]], headed by a [[Magnus]], in this case [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]]. Magnus heads the military portion of the planet's defense force, the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]], which is based at [[Fortress Maximus (Animated)|Fortress Maximus]] ([[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Alpha Trion]] is in charge of the civilian guards, which may include the [[Cyber-Ninja Corps]]). [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] is a subordinate rank answerable to the Magnus, and [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]], [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel]], [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus]] and [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm]] have been promoted to this rank. A lower officer is known as a [[Minor (rank)|Minor]]. The High Council, [[Cybertron Intelligence]] and the [[Ministry of Science]] are based at the [[Metroplex (Animated)|Metroplex]].

==Shattered Glass==
[[Image:Autobot Shattered Glass.png|right|177px|thumb|...the evil forces of the Autobots.]]
{{quote|'Til all are gone.|[[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]]|[[Shattered Glass]]}}

In this universe, the Autobots are the evildoers, bent on conquering and destroying everything in their path, starting with Earth. On Cybertron, they are the dominant faction, ruled by the Prime, specifically [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]]. Ranks are in constant flux due to their backstabbing nature. [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]] may very well usurp rule one day. {{storylink|Shattered Glass}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Transformers Movie Screen Cleaners====
[[Image:Movie Autobot Screencleaner.jpg|right|106px|thumb|This was originally the top bit of [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion's]] pimp cane.]]
*'''Autobot''' (2008)
:Released by [[TakaraTomy|Tomy Yujin]] in January 2008<ref>[http://www.gachausa.com/products/transformers.asp Tomy Yujin ''Transformers'' page]</ref>, this dangler is a [[Insignia|faction logo]]-shaped screen cleaner for your cell phone, with a stock image of Autobot insignia printed on the other side.
{{-}}

====Kinnerton====
[[Image:Kinnerton Transformers Tin.jpg|right|200px|thumb|For holding all your Autobot-symbol-shaped cookies.]]
*'''Transformers Tin''' (2008)
: Confectionery and... stationary company [[Kinnerton]] produced ''Movie''-style Autobot sigil-shaped tins. It is currently unknown what these tins were used for. These tins and other Kinnerton products were available in [[Australia]].
{{-}}

====PTI Group====
*'''Transformers Treat Containers''' (2008)
:Produced as an exclusive for [[Target]] stores, these blue plastic containers were molded in the shape of the Autobot symbol. They were sold in packs of three. While not dishwasher safe, they were perfect for containing any number of small treats.
{{-}}

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Animated]]
[[Category:Armada]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Cybertron]]
[[Category:Energon]]
[[Category:Factions]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Generation 2]]
[[Category:Machine Wars]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise]]
[[Category:Universe (2003)]]

Shockwave (G1)

2010-07-03T23:09:43Z

173.71.105.23: /* Notes */

{{disambig3|Shockwave}}
{{factions|decepticon|decepticong2}}
:''Shockwave is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] portion of the [[Generation 1 continuity family|continuity family of the same name]]. He was also briefly known as '''Shockblast'''.''

[[Image:Shockwavearealldead.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Transformers images don't GET much more awesome than this. Or [[The Reign of Starscream Issue Number One|imitated]].]]

'''Shockwave''' has been referred to as "a computer on legs." This is not far from the truth. Logic rules Shockwave's thought processes and is the source of his every inspiration. He sees emotion as a weakness and a distraction. His cold and calculating ''modus operandi'' is supported by his frightening and exceptionally powerful form.

Shockwave is possibly even more powerful than [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]. Perhaps logic may one day dictate that the time to replace Megatron's flawed, emotion-fueled rule is at hand. After all, the only logical choice for [[Decepticon leader]] would be Shockwave himself.

As an [[Action Master]], he is [[Action Master partner|partnered]] with [[Fistfight]].

{{bigquote|Ultimately, I serve only one master... pure logic!|Shockwave on his true loyalties|[[Spotlight: Shockwave]]}}

:''Japanese name'': '''Laserwave'''
:''Chinese name (Taiwan):'' '''Jèn pō''' (震波, "Shock Wave")
:''French name (Canada):'' '''Onde de Choc'''
:''Italian name':' '''Brutal'''
:''Hungarian name'': '''Sokkoló''' ("Shocker")
:''Portuguese name (Brazil comic):'' '''Onda de Choque''' ("Shock Wave")
:''Portuguese name (Portugal comic):'' '''Onda-Choque''' ("Shock-Wave")
:''Russian name'': '''Vzrivala''' (Взрывала, "Blaster")

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Generation 1====
{{noteukonly}}

''Millions of years ago, on the troubled planet Cybertron, Shockwave was the military ruler of the city-state of [[Tarn]]. Following a botched attempt by [[Vos]] to ignite war between [[Iacon (city-state)|Iacon]] and Tarn, Tarn went to war with Vos, and both cities were destroyed by an exchange of [[Photon missile|photon missiles]]. The survivors of both cities—presumably including Shockwave—were gathered together by the ex-gladiator [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], who used their bitterness towards Iacon to unite them under his control as the Decepticons.'' {{storylink|State Games}}

[[Image:Laststand-autobotsarenomore.jpg|thumb|right|200px| ]]

As Military Commander, Shockwave planned the strategy of the Decepticon assault on the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]]. After the Autobots had successfully destroyed the asteroids threatening [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Megatron and the other Decepticons attacked the ship while Shockwave remained behind on [[Nemesis (G1)|their ship]] to pilot it and act as a potential backup. When the Ark subsequently crashed on [[Earth]], deactivating all those within, Shockwave followed the ship down, but the planet's magnetic fields caused a malfunction in his guidance systems, resulting in him landing half a world away, in the tropical Antarctic jungle known as the [[Savage Land]].

The Ark's dying computer detected Shockwave's presence on the planet, and reactivated five Autobots to combat him, rebuilding them in the shapes of the Savage Land's native dinosaurs. {{storylink|The Last Stand}} These "[[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]]" battled Shockwave, a battle that ended in permanent stalemate when [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]] brought down the mountain that Shockwave stood upon, knocking all the combatants into a tar pit. {{storylink|Repeat Performance!}}

[[Image:Megatrong1marvelhumiliation.jpg|thumb|left|300px|Early on, Shockwave establishes the pecking order.]]

In 1984, when the rest of the Transformers aboard the Ark were awakened by a volcanic eruption, the Autobots attempted to track down their five missing comrades. A sensor drone tracked them to the Savage Land, but inadvertently wound up reactivating Shockwave, who headed straight for [[Oregon]]. He arrived just as the Autobots had claimed victory over the Decepticons, and his explosive entry saw all the weakened combatants knocked off-line. {{storylink|The Last Stand}}

Rounding up the bodies, Shockwave took control of the Ark, strung up the Autobots for spare parts, decapitated [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] and restored his fellow Decepticons back to health. This came as something of a rude shock to Megatron, who awoke to find that Shockwave had decided it was only logical for him to take over leadership of the Decepticons in light of Megatron's failure. After declaring his leadership and the superiority of Decepticons over humans, he flew off to begin his conquests. {{storylink|The New Order}}

Shockwave's first attack was on the new offshore oil-drilling platform of tycoon [[G.B. Blackrock]]. Tearing his way through the rig's defenses, he quickly secured it for use as a secondary base of operations. Unbeknownst to Shockwave, the violent attack crippled the human Josie Beller, leading to her transformation into [[Circuit Breaker]]. When Shockwave returned to the Ark, a weakened Megatron engaged him in combat for leadership. Despite his power, Megatron was soundly defeated. Shockwave dumped Megatron's broken body before the troops he had once commanded, and demanded that they vow to serve Shockwave alone. They didn't argue. Megatron grudgingly swore his fealty as well. {{storylink|The Worse of Two Evils!}}

[[Image:Repeatperformance-preparedtheprisoner.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Dammit, woman! Where's my supper?!]]

Shockwave's next attack came through [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] and [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]], who took control of the [[Blackrock Aerospace Assembly Plant Number One]]. After Soundwave reported his success, Shockwave traveled from the oil platform to the Ark, checking in with Megatron and reminding him again of where he stood. From the Ark, he transported Optimus Prime's head to the Aerospace Plant. Shockwave effortlessly blasted his way past the Army cordon surrounding the plant, all the while lecturing the foolish humans about the raw strength of his armor. {{storylink|Repeat Performance!}}

Shockwave quickly began setting up the Aerospace Plant's facilities to carry out his plans; however, this was rather boring work for Decepticon warriors, leading to some diminished morale; Shockwave had to sic [[Buzzsaw (G1)|Buzzsaw]] on [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] when the latter started throwing a temper tantrum over threats from the human G.B. Blackrock. Still, accepting Starscream's argument that morale could use a boost, Shockwave granted permission for Starscream and Frenzy to destroy Blackrock's weapon. {{storylink|DIS-Integrated Circuits!}}

[[Image:Buzzsawyikes1.jpg|thumb|left|300px|Speaking of "pecking order"...]]

After some time, the plant was ready, and Shockwave used it to create the bodies of the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], whose brain modules had already been brought to life with the power of the [[Matrix Leadership|Creation Matrix]] drained from Prime's head. Shockwave then began work on his next project, the superjet [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]], but was startled to find that he could not bring him to life. {{storylink|The Next Best Thing to Being There!}}

Shockwave had the plant's captive workers begin construction of a hundred jet warriors; meanwhile, he tried yet again to bring Jetfire to life. When the process failed, he deduced that Optimus Prime must have hidden the Matrix somewhere. Scanning the memory banks of [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]], he discovered that Optimus had transferred the Matrix into the mind of the human, [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]]. Shockwave programmed Jetfire to capture Buster, but the boy was able to use the power of the Matrix to bring the robot under his own control. {{storylink|Brainstorm!}}

[[Image:Brainstorm-welcomeboost.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Hasbro probably sold a LOT of Shockwave toys just from this panel.]]

Buster used Jetfire to travel to the Aerospace Plant, intending to free Optimus Prime. Jetfire's pre-programmed response to an Air Force attack, however, meant that Buster was knocked unconscious and delivered to Shockwave as a captive.

The Autobots' attempts to keep Buster away from the Decepticons led Shockwave to suspect that his headquarters was bugged. Soundwave soon ferreted out a telephone link that was allowing the Autobots to listen in on their plans. Shockwave used the link to manipulate the Autobots into bringing their leader's body with them to a nearby swamp, where his head was to be deposited, there to corrode away forever. The head that actually arrived there, however, was a false one constructed by Shockwave, which attacked the Autobots once it was joined with Optimus Prime's body.

Shockwave had reckoned without Buster's fighting back, however; as Jetfire was about to take the real head of Optimus Prime and pitch it into the swamp, the captive human used his Matrix powers to take control of Jetfire and knock out Shockwave. Shockwave awoke to find both Optimus Prime and the human workers gone; he quickly deduced what had happened, and flew to the battle site. There he engaged the newly-whole Optimus in a one-on-one battle which ended when the Decepticon leader was tossed into a swamp. {{storylink|Prime Time!}}

''Finally extricating himself from the swamp after being trapped for several months,'' Shockwave returned to leadership of the Decepticons with some new ill-fated plans involving stealing sonic energy from a rock concert {{storylink|Rock and Roll-Out!}} and attempting to exploit [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] as a weak link in the Autobot forces {{storylink|Plight of the Bumblebee!}}.

[[Image:ShockwaveSecondGeneration1.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Uh...you're on your own, kid. See ya!]]

''When [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] built Buster a mechanoid battle suit, the human test-drove it by attacking [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]]. Shockwave responded to the attack, only to be briefly blinded when a desperate Buster flung a handful of sand into his optic sensor. The darkness this brought about revived memories of his four-million-year burial and his humiliating swamp submergence, and an enraged, barely-sane Shockwave disregarded logic in a desire for revenge that saw him pursue Buster throughout the night. As the new day dawned, Buster made one final attack with all the suit's power, which destroyed it but merely injured Shockwave. Seizing the boy in his hand, Shockwave was about to crush the life from him when the Autobot forces arrived to rescue him.'' {{storylink|Robot Buster!}} ''His rationality returning, Shockwave realized that Buster could potentially be a powerful tool to use against the Autobots, and had the Constructicons attempt to abduct him, but during the battle, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] discovered that the Matrix had planted in Buster's mind a vision for the future of the Transformer race.'' {{storylink|Devastation Derby!}} ''Shockwave watched intently as Soundwave tapped into Buster's dreams, and witnessed a vision of [[combiner]] Transformers battling. Little did he know that Soundwave was also beaming the vision to Megatron (now operating independently of Shockwave), who decided that it was time for him to retake Decepticon leadership. Shockwave and Megatron battled once more, but with Megatron at full health, the fight was much more evenly matched and drawn-out, and was even televised by the Decepticons' unwilling human ally, [[Donny Finkleberg|Robot Master]]. To prevent the Decepticons from being made to look like fools, Soundwave demanded they cease fighting and consent to a joint leadership. Begrudgingly, both agreed.'' {{storylink|Second Generation!}}

This joint leadership did not last long. Leaving Shockwave in charge of the Decepticons' Wyoming coal mine base, Megatron led a team of Decepticons to attack the Autobot base, only for the majority of their number to be deactivated and captured by [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]]. At the same time, however, the Autobots attacked the Decepticon base to draw out [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]], to learn more about the combiner process. With the day having firmly been won by the Autobots on both fronts, Megatron argued that although he may have charged into a trap, Shockwave had been ineffective enough to do nothing, and had allowed a trap to spring up around him. Bowing to the logic of this argument, Shockwave stepped down and allowed Megatron to resume sole command. {{storylink|Command Performances!}}

''Shockwave's movements were unknown for the brief time that followed this embarrassment. He was absent from the Decepticons' base when the time-traveling future Decepticon [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] arrived from 2006 and temporarily disposed of Megatron, but returned not long thereafter. Wondering where everyone was, he was met by [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and Frenzy, who had escaped their confinement in the Autobot base, but then, abruptly, all three were mass-displaced into [[limbo]] when three future Autobots traveled back in time to thwart Galvatron's plans.'' {{storylink|Target: 2006}} ''In limbo, Shockwave and his two companions battled alongside the similarly-displaced Optimus Prime, [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and Ratchet against the deadly illusions created by the dimension's native lifeforms, before returning to their natural place in space and time when the time-travellers returned to their point of origin.'' {{storylink|Distant Thunder!}}

''It was not long before Shockwave began scheming to return to the position of leader, and when Megatron summoned the Decepticon hunters the [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]] to Earth to stalk Optimus Prime, he saw his opportunity. Conspiring with them, Shockwave arranged for the team to turn on Megatron during the hunt, depriving him of his weapons, expecting that he would have no chance against Prime one-on-one.'' {{storylink|Prey!}} ''When Megatron did not return, Shockwave believed him dead, but in truth, he had escaped to Cybertron—though this was of little concern to the cyclopean schemer, who took up the mantle of leadership in his absence again. It was not long after this that Galvatron returned, having traveled back from the future once more, and now dancing dangerously on the edge of sanity. Fearing the threat Galvatron might pose to his own leadership, Shockwave had the Decepticons aid the Dinobots in battling him, and Galvatron departed rather than fight his own future troops.'' {{storylink|Fallen Angel (issue)|Fallen Angel}} ''Shortly thereafter, Megatron returned from Cybertron with a case of amnesia, sparing Shockwave any retribution for his actions.'' {{storylink|Resurrection!}}

Not long afterwards, Optimus Prime perished in a video game duel with Megatron, but the Decepticon leader grew progressively more paranoid, fearing his foe had survived. Apparently attempting to shock Megatron back to his senses, Shockwave had the Predacons come to Earth and force him into a combat situation, implanting a copy of his personality program in the team so that he could "be part" of the battle from a safe distance. Events culminated in Megatron's apparent death when, having fully plunged into insanity, he blew the space bridge up while standing on it. Once again, Shockwave was leader. {{storylink|Gone but Not Forgotten!}}

Shockwave established regular contact with Cybertron Decepticon commander [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]], {{storylink|King of the Hill!}} ''and had the [[Seacon (G1)|Seacons]] sent from Cybertron so that they could use their aquatic abilities to help fortify the Decepticons' new artificial mobile island base. It was while they were performing this task that Galvatron returned, advancing on the island, much to Shockwave's distress. He ordered the Seacons to attack, but Galvatron tore through both them and the base walls—he had, he claimed, come in peace, but Shockwave's attack had made an enemy of him, putting all Decepticons in danger. This of course, was a complete lie, but it turned the Decepticons against Shockwave, thereby disrupting the one-eyed warrior's command.'' {{storylink|Enemy Action!}}

[[Image:Shockwaveburnsup.jpg|thumb|250px|Shockwave's mistake was whittling [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fort Max]] down to the story-protected [[human]] center.]]

After interfering in a scheme of Ratbat's, Buster Witwicky was captured by the Decepticons and brought to their island, which Shockwave then transformed into spaceship mode and took to the fringes of Earth's atmosphere. Autobot [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] leader [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] pursued the craft and battled Shockwave in the void of space, where he defeated him and sent him tumbling back through Earth's atmosphere in free-fall. {{storylink|The Desert Island of Space!}} ''Although thought dead by many, Shockwave in actuality survived and returned to the Decepticons' original fortress base, where he concentrated on resolving the threat posed by Galvatron. Seeking to use the missing Megatron as a weapon against him, Shockwave had the small number of Decepticons still under his control recover a [[Straxus (G1)|clone of the departed leader]] from the Thames river, which he and [[Snaptrap (G1)|Snaptrap]] repaired and brainwashed using the [[psycho-probe]].'' {{storylink|Salvage!}} ''Around the same time, Galvatron's fellow time-travelers [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] and [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] had joined up with Shockwave's Decepticons, but, chafing in his service, Cyclonus wound up accidentally blurting out that they would be responsible for killing him in the future of 2008. Seeking to preserve his continued existence, Shockwave unleashed the Megatron clone upon them, resulting in the death of Cyclonus. Satisfied with the clone's performance, he dispatched him against Galvatron.'' {{storylink|Dry Run!}} ''The battle had an unexpected conclusion, however, when "Megatron" found a kindred spirit in Galvatron and actually joined forces with him.'' {{storylink|Altered Image!}}

[[Image:Shockwavetimewars.jpg|thumb|left|250px|It's okay, [[Time Wars]] didn't make sense to any of us, either.]]

''This unfortunate chain of events led to Shockwave losing his grip on sanity. Unable to logically fathom the situation, he slipped into despondency, stringing up the remains of Cyclonus on the walls of his castle as a twisted trophy. What Shockwave did not realize, however, was that the repeated time-travel and the death of Cyclonus had caused a rift in space-time that threatened the stability of reality. Hoping to restore the balance by returning all time-travelers to their proper place in time, Scourge attempted to reclaim Cyclonus's body, but was shot down by Shockwave for his trouble. At Scourge's urging, [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] was able to present events logically enough to Shockwave to restore some semblance of coherency to his thoughts, and Shockwave himself deposited Cyclonus's remains in the rift, and sealed it with an x-ray blast.'' {{storylink|Time Wars}}

[[Image:Shockwavefightmoretalkless.jpg|thumb|250px|Hypothesis: Shockwave should internalize his thought process.]]

It would be some time before Shockwave next resurfaced, emerging from the sea on the coast of Blackpool, England, and killing a human who had seen him. {{storylink|Dark Creation}} Seeking to establish his own faction of Decepticons, he saved [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] from Circuit Breaker {{storylink|The Human Factor!}}, and the pair, along with Ravage, recruited those who had grown disenfranchised with the leadership of the current Decepticon Earth commander, [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. {{storylink|Eye of the Storm}} The small group staged an attack on Scorponok's [[New Jersey (Earth)|New Jersey]] base, and Scorponok and Shockwave battled in the waters around Manhattan before being interrupted by the super-team, the [[Neo-Knights]]. {{storylink|...All This and Civil War 2}} Shockwave used the ensuing confusion to implicate the Autobots in an attack on the human team, but was later recognized by Circuit Breaker as the robot responsible for crippling her, and was blown out of the sky by her powers. {{storylink|Out of Time!}} Abruptly, the battle was ended when the Transformers were all teleported to Cybertron to face the threat of [[Unicron]], but even Shockwave's data grid could not compute the vastness of the threat the chaos-bringer posed. {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}}

After Unicron was destroyed, Shockwave teamed up with Starscream once more to find the remains of the Autobots' Ark, which had crashed during the battle. {{storylink|Still Life!}} The pair succeeded in getting the craft airborne again, but were unaware that the numerous damaged Transformers in the ship's stasis pods had been reactivated with [[nucleon]]—Megatron among them—and that an alternate future version of [[Galvatron II|Galvatron]] was also on board. {{storylink|Exodus!}} Conflict erupted when Megatron and Galvatron met, but the sight of Shockwave saw the two Decepticons team up against him. To put an end to things once and for all, the revived Ratchet sent the Ark crashing to Earth. {{storylink|A Savage Circle}} There was no indication that Shockwave survived, suggesting that his evil had once and for all been put to rest.

=====Marvel UK future timelines=====
''In the alternate future timeline of [[Earth-120185]], Shockwave attacked the unveiling of the first female Autobot [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] in 1995 with [[Fangry]], [[Squeezeplay]] and [[Horri-Bull]]. When Arcee quickly disabled his men, though, Shockwave took off and left them to fend for themselves.'' {{storylink|Prime's Rib!}} ''Years later, in 2004, he staged an attack on the opening day of [[Autobot City]], but was defeated by the extremely illogical actions of [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]], who threw him down a mountain, and jumped along with him for the ride.'' {{storylink|Aspects of Evil!}}

''After Decepticon commander [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] disappeared following Unicron's attack on Cybertron in 2006, the new Autobot leader [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] devoted his forces to searching the galaxy and making sure the Decepticon was truly dead. This diverted attention allowed Shockwave to assume leadership of the Decepticons in the chaos that followed, and he consolidated them into a strong force on Cybertron that ultimately resulted in a stalemate between the factions by 2008.'' {{storylink|Wanted:Galvatron — Dead or Alive!}} ''Knowing that the freelance peacekeeping agent named [[Death's Head (G1)|Death's Head]] had a grudge against Rodimus Prime, Shockwave had [[Blot (G1)|Blot]] hire him for 10,000 [[shanix]] to hunt down and exterminate the Autobot, providing him with secret entry into Cybertron and information about Prime's movements. At the same time, Shockwave allowed Scourge and Cyclonus, Galvatron's former top two lackeys, to brazenly go after Rodimus Prime themselves. Seeing the powerful duo as a potential threat to his position, Shockwave hoped that by tossing these various parties into the mix together, at least some of his problems would turn out dead.'' {{storylink|Headhunt}}

''Unfortunately for Shockwave's plans, it was then that Unicron's influence was felt again, as he mind-controlled Cyclonus, Scourge and Death's Head into trying to assassinate Shockwave. Death's Head used the supposedly deactivated bodies of the duo to gain access to Shockwave's audience chamber, and then left his "comrades" to seal the doors while he chased down the Decepticon leader. After a hard-fought battle, Shockwave was ultimately destroyed, his body blown to pieces and his memory module crushed between Death's Head's fingers, ensuring that he could never return. Still, the hunter was sickened by being forced to kill against his will, and Death's Head promised Shockwave's corpse that he would eventually avenge them both. ''{{storylink|The Legacy of Unicron!}}

=====Earthforce=====
{{earthforcefiction}}

''Reality unfolds in many ways, across many dimensions. In one such dimension, it was not Scorponok that Shockwave challenged for leadership in the [[Decepticon Civil War]], but a returning Megatron, and the two of them built their armies up for a renewed battle for control over the Earth. Upon hearing that [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] had somehow restored his Dinobots to life without the Creation Matrix, Shockwave and his soldiers attempted to force the secret out of the Dinobots. They failed, miserably. '' {{storylink|Two Steps Back!}}

''Unable to gain an advantage over Megatron, Shockwave was forced to suggest an [[Enclave]], a truce whereby the Decepticons could meet and hopefully overcome their differences as they had in the past, for the mutual goal of destruction of the Autobots. Certainly, the Autobots had something to say about that, and they rigged a scenario so that Megatron was tricked into thinking Shockwave had sent an assassin sniper to kill him during the meeting. A brawl broke out, and any chance at peace was chucked out the window, along with several dismembered body parts. '' {{storylink|The Bad Guy's Ball!}}

[[Image:Triple changers shockwave secrets.jpg|left|200px|thumb|]]
''Thanks to a [[Soundwave (G1)|secret informer]] inside Megatron's camp, Shockwave was able to surprise his rival at the site of an energon delivery, and he and the [[Triple Changer|Triple Changers]] overpowered Megatron and tossed him over a cliff, claiming his energon as their own.'' {{storylink|Secrets}} ''Turnabout's fair play, however, and Shockwave's own lieutenant Starscream tipped off Megatron about when Shockwave would be alone and open for attack. What's worse, Starscream and Soundwave took advantage of their leaders' absence to stage a coup, and so Shockwave and Megatron were left on the run from [[Earthforce]] while their troops abandoned them to their fates.'' {{storylink|Internal Affairs!}}

''Shockwave and Megatron subsequently organized a hit on Starscream, using a series of cheap assassins to trick Starscream into assuming Soundwave wanted to wipe him out and assume sole command of the Decepticons. '' {{storylink|Assassins}} ''They then attacked their betrayers personally when it didn't go to plan, but were countered by the Earthforce, who needed Starscream alive to help heal [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]], afflicted with [[Corrodia Gravis]]. Even with the help of [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]]'s [[Mayhem Attack Squad]], Megatron and Shockwave were forced to retreat.'' {{storylink|The Lesser Evil}}

====Fun Publications ''Classics'' comics====
Megatron decided to keep Shockwave alive in spite of past betrayals because of the use of his logical skills. However, he decided to prevent further betrayals by keeping him only as a head hooked to some sort of life support. Megatron queried him on information regarding [[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]] and Shockwave told him all he knew, but when he requested computer access for more information, Megatron refused and closed up the chamber. {{storylink|Games of Deception}}

===''Generation 1'' cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
:''Voice Actor:'' [[Corey Burton]] (English), [[Yū Shimaka|Yutaka Shimaka]] (Japanese), [[Peter Musäus]] (German; Generation 1), [[Claus Brockmeyer]] (German; The Movie & Generation 2 Season One), [[Vladimiro Conti]] (Italian, second dub), [[Georges Atlas]] (French)

{{note|Shockwave’s cartoon portrayal is highly inconsistent with his appearances in all other fictional media. Instead of a coldly logical, power hungry rival to Megatron, in the cartoon Shockwave is consistently loyal and subservient. In a [[Shout! Factory|2009 retrospective documentary about the brand]], [[Hasbro]] staff said this disparity was a simple--though extreme--result of there not having been enough time during the production of the G1 cartoon and comic to get all the story basics firmly and consistently established from the outset. The character descriptions in the cartoon's [[production bible]] are mostly abridged versions of [[Bob Budiansky]]'s original character writeups, which went on to become the toys' [[Tech Spec|tech spec]]s... yet Shockwave's show bible description is entirely different from his tech spec [[bio]].}}

[[Image:ShockwaveUltimateDoom3.jpg|thumb|Sorry, but you kids are going to have to play somewhere else.]]

Shockwave was a highly ranked and staunchly loyal Decepticon, and with Soundwave, apparently one of the first at [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]'s side. {{storylink|War Dawn}} Certainly he was one of Megatron’s more favored troops, in that Megatron's constant praise of him seemed to annoy Starscream to no end. {{storylink|Starscream's Brigade}}

Shockwave was entrusted with the stewardship of Cybertron by Megatron when the latter left to intercept an Autobot mission surveying for new forms of energy. Neither Decepticon suspected that Megatron's absence (and Shockwave's command) would last four million years. Little changed on Cybertron during those years, although Shockwave apparently lost his left hand and replaced it with a laser cannon. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 1}}

He oversaw all Decepticon activity on the evidently near-empty Cybertron. His keen scientific mind resulted in several incredible devices, including the [[space bridge]]. Although he was able to keep Cybertron functional for the extended length of time, he continued to try to contact Megatron in hopes of finding an energy source to revitalize the planet. In 1984, he finally reestablished contact with the Decepticon leader. The two coordinated the refinement of the space bridge, first to send [[Energon cube|energon cubes]], and eventually as an easy method of transport for Decepticons. {{storylink|Transport to Oblivion}} {{storylink|Roll for It}} However, Autobots would also occasionally hijack use of the bridge, and Shockwave found himself having to repel stowaways on more than one occasion. {{storylink|Divide and Conquer}}

Eventually, Megatron and Shockwave developed a space bridge powerful enough to transport Cybertron itself to Earth. {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 1}} The close proximity of the two worlds caused horrible weather disturbances that the Decepticons were able to utilize as sources of energy which could easily be shipped back to their homeworld. It was during this affair that Shockwave and his men had to stop an attempt by several Autobots and [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] to rescue Spike's [[Sparkplug Witwicky|father]], who was being held on Cybertron as a slave. The Autobots were eventually able to escape with both Sparkplug and the data for [[Doctor Arkeville]]’s mind-control hypno chips. {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 3}}

Even though he partook in the near-destruction of the Earth, he could also be credited with helping save it shortly after. With Megatron presumed dead following an explosion on his star cruiser, Starscream assumed command on Cybertron. He rigged Dr. Arkeville’s exponential generator to blow up the Earth so the Decepticons could harvest the release of energy. Despite Starscream’s orders, Shockwave continued to make communications to Earth, finally reaching Megatron, who wasn’t dead after all, and warning him in time to disable the generator. {{storylink|Countdown to Extinction (episode)|Countdown to Extinction}}

He once came to Earth, but only for a short time. {{storylink|The Autobot Run}}

[[Image:ShockwaveDesertionOfTheDinobots1.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Shockwave bought himself on eBay!]]

When all the Earthbound Transformers began to malfunction due to the deterioration of the essential element [[Cybertonium]] in their bodies, Shockwave was tasked with having more mined from Cybertron to send to the Decepticons. The Autobots sent the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] to attack the space bridge and snatch some Cybertonium for them. Instead, the rebellious Dinobots used the space bridge to travel to Cybertron, where they intended to stay. They were captured by Shockwave’s sentinels, rewired, and put to work in the Cybertonium mines. Spike and [[Carly]] were also captured when they attempted to rescue them, but Shockwave underestimated the two humans. Once they were put in the mines, Spike and Carly were able to fix [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] and the others. The Dinobots broke free and were able to escape Shockwave with enough Cybertonium to repair the Autobots. {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1}} {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2}}

[[Image:SearchforAlphaTrion Shockwave gun mode.jpg|thumb|right|200px|"I will not be manhandled by you Starscream!"]]
Though he'd believed them to be extinct, Shockwave discovered a small group of [[Female Autobots]] when they attempted to raid his energon stockroom. Although they got away with some supplies, he was able to track them to their hidden hideout. He alerted Megatron, who devised the plan of kidnapping their leader, [[Elita One]]. Megatron knew she had a relationship with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]. Sure enough, after her capture, Optimus raced to Cybertron to rescue her, only to be captured himself by Starscream. Thanks to Elita’s special power, she and Optimus were able to escape. Meanwhile, Shockwave, Starscream, and the other Decepticons had to contend with Ironhide leading a small group of Autobots who had followed Optimus Prime. With the help of the Female Autobots team, they eventually cornered the Decepticons, until Shockwave blasted them off the bridge with his gun mode. He would’ve been able to finish them off had Prime and One not intervened at the last moment to save their comrades, send Starscream and the others running off, and blast Shockwave down into the pits of Cybertron. {{storylink|The Search for Alpha Trion}}

He wasn’t out of action for long. After Megatron built his new combiner team, the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]], Shockwave helped locate the key to [[Vector Sigma]], the computer that gave life to all Transformers. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1}} He later learned and reported to Megatron that the key had other unknown properties on other worlds, which Megatron discovered meant turning organic matter into metal. Unfortunately for Megatron, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] was able to score a precise shot, blowing apart the key before Megatron could get away with it. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2}}

Another device built by Shockwave was the [[Kronosphere]], a time machine that was used to dispose of the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]]. When the Autobots were able to drive the Decepticons out of their hideout, Shockwave helped Megatron reactivate a fallen [[Guardian robot]] to try to take back the base. In the end, the Autobots were able to bring the Aerialbots back to the present, and with their help, drove the Decepticons away for good. {{storylink|War Dawn}}

Later, Shockwave alerted Megatron to the theft of five personality components from the [[Decepticon Detention Center]] on Cybertron. These were stolen by Starscream to build his own force to defeat Megatron, the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]]. {{storylink|Starscream's Brigade}}

[[Image:RevengeOfBruticus Shockwave on Starscream.jpg|200px|thumb|left|No caption is needed for this image.]]

This coup failed, and Starscream and the Combaticons were exiled to deep space. While Starscream went off on his own, the Combaticons instead made their way back to Cybertron, where they attacked Shockwave and his sentinels and succeeded in taking over Decepticon headquarters. Shockwave ran into Starscream, and the two teamed up to stop the Combaticons and their plan to use the space bridge to push the Earth into the Sun. However, Starscream saw an opportunity to assert power over Megatron, who was still on Earth. He turned against Shockwave, the two fought each other, and they were captured by the Combaticons. They were both eventually freed when Megatron and Optimus Prime came to Cybertron to defeat the Combaticons themselves. {{storylink|The Revenge of Bruticus}}

[[Image:Shockwave5Faces.jpg|150px|thumb|right|Shockwave didn't die. He just got a new [[Six Shot|paint job]].]]

By 2005, Megatron had returned to Cybertron and completely conquered the planet, leading Shockwave to rejoin Megatron's inner circle. He participated in the [[Battle of Autobot City]] and was present for both Starscream's coronation and his subsequent destruction by [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], the reformatted version of Megatron. With Galvatron indisposed, Shockwave commanded the Decepticon forces during [[Unicron]]'s attack on Cybertron and is believed to have been killed in the ensuing battle. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}}

{{note|Though Shockwave's death was written into the movie's script, it did not make it into the released film. However, IDW's [[Transformers: The Animated Movie#4|20th Anniversary comic adaptation]] did include Shockwave's death. Shockwave's model did show up in season 3 episodes as possible animation errors, in "[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 3]]" and "[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4]]".}}

====''Story of Binaltech''====

[[Image:Binaltech shockwave.jpg|left|thumb|225px|It doesn't get happy; it doesn't get sad; it doesn't laugh at your jokes; it ''just runs programs''!]]

In 2004, as the battle for control of Cybertron was reaching fever pitch, Shockwave was among the casualities of war, his body destroyed but his personality component intact. Around this time, the time-tossed Decepticon [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] took control of the Kronosphere, seeking to use it to alter the course of history. Ravage used the Kronosphere to teleport Megatron and the majority of the Decepticons outside of time, knowing that this would leave the Autobots to face the looming threat of Unicron alone. To keep the remaining Decepticons organized until then, Ravage realized they would need a leader, and Shockwave was elected for the task; his personality component implanted into a vehicle outfitted with molecular-manipulating [[Transmuter (G1)|Transmuter]] technology, Shockwave was reborn in a powerful Binaltech body and rallied the Decepticons under his command. {{storylink|Changing Lanes}}

Although they were forced off of Earth by the Autobots there, Shockwave's Decepticons continued to operate within the [[solar system]], and were discovered in the vicinity of [[Saturn]]'s rings by a [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]. Alas, Prowl did not make it back to Earth after making his discovery: Shockwave led an attack on his shuttle and Prowl's [[spark]] was lost when he attempted to transfer it to safety through [[subspace]]. {{storylink|Prowl & Chase}}

Through the efforts of the mysterious time- and space-bending entity known as the [[Optimus Primal|Protector]], the changes Ravage wrought upon the timeline were undone, and history was corrected. The altered version of the timeline, however, was also preserved as a parallel dimension (colloquially known as the "BT World"), and in that alternate dimension, the Autobots were successul in defeating Unicron alone. In accordance with Ravage's plan, however, Megatron and his forces then returned from beyond time, immediately launching a ferocious attack upon the weary Autobots.

The Autobots' total defeat was only delayed by Megatron's encounter with [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]], an Earth-made robot which had taken the side of the Decepticons, who challenged Megatron during an attack on the [[Earth Defense Command]] base on [[Mars (planet)|Mars]] for ownership of Earth's solar system. While Megatron and Nemesis Prime battled, across the galaxy, [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] ventured into the depths of Cybertron and activated the [[Quintesson]]s' [[large switch|killswitch]], deactivating all non-Binaltech Transformers throughout the universe. With Megatron deactivated right in front of him, Nemesis Prime declared himself Decepticon leader, and summoned Shockwave to his side, instructing him to gather up as many fallen Decepticon as he could before the humans' took possession of them. Shockwave hesitated momentarily, but quickly acquiesced to the logic of the plan and complied. {{storylink|Kill Switch}}

===Grandreams ''Generation 2'' comics===
Shockwave participated in the Decepticons' attack to capture a crashed spaceship from the Autobots atop [[Table Mountain]], blasting Optimus Prime with a laser. Alas, the "spaceship" was an Autobot trap that fired Shockwave and the other Decepticons randomly into space. {{storylink|Day of the Decepticons}}

{{note|Given his absence from other G2 media, it's possible Shockwave's mention in this [[Slipstream (G2)|typo-riddled]] text story was meant to be Soundwave. However, the G2 annual seems be its own [[micro-continuity]], so there's no reason Shockwave couldn't have been there.}}

===''Call of the Future'' video game===
[[Image:Ps2tatakai shockwave1.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Absolute Power, etc., etc.]]

Shockwave grew frustrated with [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]'s increasingly abusive leadership, and when he discovered the [[Zel Quartz]], which could vastly boost the power of a Transformer, he implanted it into himself and staged a one-robot mutiny. Unfortunately, the power proved too much for Shockwave's systems and he ran wild. Neither the Autobots nor the Decepticons could stop him and they took massive casualties in the attempt. Shockwave eventually destroyed Cybertron, then set out on a quest to destroy all planets with life.

Elite teams of Autobots and Decepticons traveled to the past to prevent these events by either destroying or seizing the Zel Quartz years before Shockwave would find it. In the end, [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] accidentally negated the quartz's powers, and Shockwave's reign of terror was averted.

Shockwave was among the present-day Decepticons sent to investigate the arrival of the visitors from the future. He remained ignorant of the circumstances that prompted their arrival. {{storylink|The Transformers (PS2)|Transformers: Call of the Future}}
 

===Dreamwave ''Generation 1'' comics===
[[Image:Shockwavedwtww1.jpg|thumb|left|Dreamwave is all his fault.]]

As a major player in the Decepticon army in Cybertron's past, Shockwave led the main attack on the Autobots' stronghold shortly after the appointment of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], and personally destroyed two [[Guardian robot|guardian robots]] with one blast in space gun mode. {{storylink|The War Within}}

After Megatron's apparent death in an early space bridge test, the Decepticon faction splintered, with [[Air Commander]] [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] creating the "[[Predacon (War Within)|Predacons]]" and High Auditor [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] the [[Ultracon|Ultracons]], while Shockwave led the Decepticons through the [[Dark Ages]] of Cybertron. During this period, his logic allowed him to put aside differences with Jetfire and the Autobots in order to defeat the greater evil of [[The Fallen]]. Meeting up with Jetfire to discuss the upsurge in violence, the two were attacked by the [[Chaos Trinity]], and Shockwave was taken down. Recovered by the newly built [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]], Shockwave organized a counter strike against the three mystics that included Trypticon, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], the [[Insecticon (G1)|Insecticons]], and the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seekers]]. Exactly how logic dictated that Shockwave bring an entire army to deal with three rogue Decepticons is unknown. Grimlock's [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] arrived, saying that they had a stake in this, and Shockwave agreed to a temporary ceasefire. After the Fallen was defeated, Shockwave and [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] agreed to seal the [[Well of All Sparks]] with six coded barriers for each faction. They were to remain in place until Cybertron was united. Or, as Shockwave put it, [['Til all are one|until all are one]]. {{storylink|War Within: The Dark Ages}} As the Dark Ages came to an end, Shockwave was ready to sign a peace treaty with Ratbat's Ultracons and the Autobots, but the return of Megatron derailed the plan. Shockwave was tasked with reverse engineering the [[Quintesson]]-created clones he brought back to the planet with him, which suffered difficulties due to Megatron's refusal to divulge their origin, but greatly intrigued Shockwave. {{storylink|War Within: The Age of Wrath}}

Shockwave was left behind on Cybertron while Megatron's forces pursued Optimus Prime and were subsequently lost on Earth for four million years, and became Decepticon leader on the planet. He began experimenting with cloning, and through studies of [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] and [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]], began to conceive the idea of a Transformer with multiple alternate modes. Cybertron, however, was steadily growing lower and lower on energy, and in an attempt to create new energy-conservative Transformers, Shockwave allied with the Autobots for a pooling of resources that created the [[Micromaster]]s. {{storylink|Destined for Nothing}} This came back to bite him, however, when the Decepticon Micromaster [[Skystalker (G1)|Skystalker]] attempted to overthrow his command, knocking him offline and decapitating him to use in a grotesque puppet show, giving orders to the other Decepticons by holding Shockwave's severed noggin up to a video screen. {{storylink|Victims of the Revolution}} When Skystalker was defeated, Shockwave was repaired, but eventually, he and all the other Transformers on Cybertron succumbed to stasis as the planet's energy ran out, and it entered a hibernation phase known as the "[[Great Shutdown]]."

3000 years ago, Unicron's herald [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] located the dead planet, and reactivated Shockwave for study purposes. {{storylink|Generation One issue 0|Generation 1 #0}} However, when Shockwave was attacked by a swarm of [[Sharkticon (G1)|Sharkticons]], Scourge intervened and saved him, {{storylink|Cold War}} only to be shot in the back by the Decepticon and captured. Dissecting and studying Scourge, Shockwave learned many secrets about the function and purpose of Transformers and Cybertron from the secrets hidden within him. Using that knowledge, Shockwave steadily worked to restore Cybertron, reactivating its population and solving their energy needs, ending the war and unifying the planet. He also continued his experiments into multiple transformations, yielding the unstable [[Duocon]]s, and then successfully mastering the process with [[Triple Changer]]s. Capturing [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], Shockwave sought to unlock the full secrets of [[Vector Sigma]], having already learned of the mysterious significance of Earth to the Transformer race. {{storylink|Revelation (War and Peace)|Revelation}} In preparation for the invasion of the planet, Shockwave subliminally influenced the population of Cybertron to become more violent, {{storylink|Passive Aggression}} and prevented the return of Optimus Prime and Megatron aboard the ''[[Ark II]]'' by having a [[Robert Hallo|human agent]] blow it up. {{storylink|Revelation (War and Peace)|Revelation}}

{{note|The [[Keepers Trilogy]] novel "[[Hardwired]]" made a brief reference to Shockwave being part of the Decepticons on Earth, but having been incommunicado for months prior to the disappearance of Megatron in [[Tokyo]]. This statement is at odds with Dreamwave continuity established after the novels.}}

[[Image:Shockwavedwwarandpeace.jpg|thumb|250px|Deja vu all over again.]]

In 2003, Shockwave made his move, heading to Earth with his Triple Changer troops and capturing Megatron and Optimus's forces, planning to try the two leaders as war criminals. Megatron was jettisoned into space by Starscream, {{storylink|New World Order}} while Prime escaped from his clutches and fell in with a rebel group. {{storylink|Cold War}} Mobilizing the planet's Autobots, Prime led an attack on Shockwave's citadel, and confronted Shockwave himself, only to be defeated by the Decepticon, who ripped the Matrix from him. Using the Matrix to activate Vector Sigma, Shockwave downloaded the compressed contents of the mega-computer into his network, but before he had an opportunity to view the data, he was pulled into a battle with [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. In the course of the fight, the fuel line to his cannon was severed, and the resulting explosion destroyed his citadel and knocked him into a chasm. {{storylink|Revelation (War and Peace)|Revelation}}

While the rest of Cybertron believed Shockwave to be deceased, he had actually survived the explosion and gone underground in the wastelands of Cybertron. {{storylink|Lost and Found (issue)|Lost and Found}} In addition to re-establishing communications with the [[Insecticon (G1)|Insecticons]] on Earth (who had been operating there as an advance squad preparing the way for his invasion), {{storylink|Extermination}} Shockwave continued his experimentation, resulting in the creation of [[Sixshot]]. Soon after, however, Megatron returned to Cybertron and bested Shockwave, {{storylink|Lost and Found (issue)|Lost and Found}} taking him to Earth where he did the same to Starscream. But now, the three players were assembled, each knowing certain dark secrets of Cybertron's past... {{storylink|The Route of All Evil}}

{{note|...and then Dreamwave went out of business. Dag, yo.}}

===Devil's Due ''G.I. Joe vs. Transformers'' comics===
[[Image:Shockwave-ddp2-2b1.jpg|thumb|left|There are so many ways to make him look awesome.]]

In the absence of Megatron, Shockwave had assumed command of the Decepticons on Cybertron, and had successfully driven the Autobots into an underground resistance movement. When a number of [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] and [[Cobra]] troops, along with the captive Starscream, accidentally arrived on Cybertron via an overloaded wormhole gate, Shockwave and his troops immediately surrounded them. The same wormhole malfunction blasted a number of Transformers off of Cybertron and into random points of Earth's past, a temporal anomaly that threatened to scour the Earth's face with fire if the Transformers were not brought back.

Ultra Magnus and Perceptor arrived and were able to hold off the Decepticons for a time with a force field, while teams of humans were time-ported away to retrieve the missing Transformers and end the anomaly. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 1}} Magnus's force field power ran out before all the teams had returned, and Shockwave had his troops capture the Autobots. He took personal pleasure in blasting Ratchet when he was returned through the gate.

Revealing that he had intended all along for the humans to discover the wormhole gate technology, Shockwave set the gate to continue operating but blocked the last remaining group from returning—thus condemning Earth to destruction, easy pickings for conquest. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 3}} Fortunately for Earth, two members of the G.I. Joe team were able to reactivate the gate, allowing the newly-created Dinobots to return to Cybertron. The Dinobots' power quickly drove Shockwave's Decepticons into retreat.

Regrouping on the other side of the planet, Shockwave had the long-missing Starscream brought before him. As Starscream attempted to explain his way out of being seen as a traitor, a recording of Cobra Commander's voice suddenly began to play, explaining that he had lined Starscream's hull with explosives. Shockwave leapt to try and stop the process, but the entire building exploded, apparently taking the two Decepticons with it. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 4}}

With Shockwave's defeat, peace returned to Cybertron, and the Decepticons were driven back to a region known as the [[Gladiator Zone]]. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 1}} One of the mish-mash of robot parts known as the [[cannibalizer]]s was seen with Shockwave's blaster hand grafted onto its arm. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 3}}

===Dreamwave ''Transformers/G.I. Joe'' comics===
[[Image:Shockwavetfjoetrenches.jpg|thumb|100px|First guy to call him "Big Bertha" gets it in the face.]]
As one of the Decepticons who crashed to [[Earth]] in the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'' millions of years ago, Shockwave was retrieved by [[Cobra]] and pressed into service, taking on the alternate form of a massive artillery cannon. Chafing under the leadership of [[Cobra Commander]], he was ordered to transform and destroy the [[Autobot]] [[Superion (G1)|Superion]]. {{storylink|Trenches}} Although he did so, he was forced to fire sixteen consecutive times, despite needing to repair himself after every shot. The resulting strain on his structure irrevocably damaged him, and Cobra Commander refused to allow [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] to use the power of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] to restore him. {{storylink|The Iron Fist}}

{{-}}
===''Transformers Legends'' anthology===
During a gladiatorial match in the depths of Cybertron, Shockwave detected incoming security forces and raised the alarm. When Megatron mused that perhaps it was time to start their rebellion by destroying the incoming forces, Shockwave suggested they wait and build up their numbers. Megatron agreed and the pair departed. {{storylink|Parts}}

===IDW ''Generation 1'' comics===
{{ongoing}}

Long before the war, Shockwave was an understudy of some sort for the mad scientist [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Doubledealer}}
[[Image:Shockwave Regenesis.jpg‎|200px|thumb|left|IDW is mostly his fault.]]
Six hundred thousand [[Units of time|meta-cycles]] ago, he had become a Decepticon scientist. He predicted the eventual destruction of Cybertron as a result of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], driving the combatants out across the galaxy. Knowing that control of resources in this period would be crucial, Shockwave decided to create his own secret network of energon sources on scattered planets, a tool he could use to ensure his own domination. Calling the project "[[Regenesis]]", Shockwave covertly launched rockets from Cybertron to several worlds with specific geological properties. The rockets contained a distilled form of energon that would act as a catalyst in their target planets, sparking chain reactions that, if properly regulated, would create seams of an extremely potent [[Ultra-Energon|energon ore]]. One of these planets was Earth, and after a long period (possibly millions of years), the energon reaction reached a critical point. Shockwave needed to plant global dampers to prevent the reaction from spiraling out of control, so he traveled to Earth and found it at the end of its [[Wikipedia:Pleistocene|most recent ice age]]. As he went about his business, he was unaware of a threat that had shadowed him.

Before departing Cybertron, Shockwave had been dispatched to "tidy up" after an energon raid by the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dynobots]], following the team of misfits back to Autobot territory and blowing up their stolen fuel. The Dynobots had vowed revenge, and after their explosion-inflicted injuries had been repaired, they tracked Shockwave to Earth. While Shockwave was busy on the planet, the Dynobots either destroyed or disabled his ship and then altered their own bodies to withstand the energon-rich atmosphere.
[[Image:Shockwaveg1idw.jpg|200px|thumb|right|Shockwave began to have second thoughts over his choice of manicurists.]]
As Shockwave finished planting the dampers and was preparing to visit other Regenesis worlds, the Dynobots teleported upon him. The attack threw Shockwave off-kilter with both its ferocity and its unexpectedness, as he had anticipated a stab in the back from Megatron but had failed to consider the simple vengeance of the Dynobots. Mentally and physically confounded by the assault, Shockwave deactivated his higher reasoning and allowed a subroutine simulating rage to take over. This brutal, violent Shockwave decimated the Dynobots, burning off the organic coating shielding them from the planet's high energon fields and forcing them into [[stasis lock]]. As the battle concluded, Shockwave restored his full neural operations and logged the emotional experience for further study. But, as his logic center churned away once more, it again failed to anticipate his enemies' chaotic nature. Specifically, Grimlock had set a dead-man's switch on [[Skyfire (ship)|the Dynobots' ship]], and before Shockwave could act upon his own victory, the ship shot an energy beam into a nearby volcano, causing it to erupt and consume all of the combatants.

Megatron became suspicious of Shockwave's absence and assigned [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] to search through Shockwave's files. {{storylink|Spotlight: Shockwave}} Bludgeon discovered the Regenesis project but kept the information to himself and his close-knit team. Some time after the [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] catastrophe but before Cybertron had been declared off-limits, Bludgeon's team set upon the goal of bringing Thunderwing back to life using Shockwave's seeded Ultra-Energon. To this end, they covertly restored Shockwave's old subterranean laboratory and recovered Thunderwing's body, staying on Cybertron long after the planet was officially evacuated and quarantined. After lengthy preparations, the group headed to Earth and became the first beneficiaries of Shockwave's labor, harvesting all the energon ore they needed in a base inside [[Mount St. Helens]]. They were briefly interrupted in the year [[1984]] by [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], who had been spying on them all along and sought to both secure the ore for himself and prevent Thunderwing's return. But Bludgeon's swordsmanship made short work of Soundwave's [[Decepticon Mini-Cassette|cassette]]s [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] and [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]], and [[Iguanus (G1)|Iguanus]] took Soundwave down with a weapon from Shockwave's lab, an energy gun that forced Soundwave into his [[alternate mode|alt-mode]] and locked him in that form. As Bludgeon's group left with their bounty, they induced a volcanic eruption, burying their opponents. {{storylink|Spotlight: Soundwave}} A little over twenty years later, Bludgeon finally completed his task and resurrected Thunderwing. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2}}

[[Image:Shockwave Agent Red.jpg‎|200px|thumb|left|[[Transformers (2007)|Call him NBE-1]].]]
Coindentally, around the same time ([[2006]], to be precise), a [[Professor Goring|human archaeological team]] uncovered Shockwave's body. {{storylink|Spotlight: Shockwave}} As the dig continued and the Dynobots also began to be unearthed, a government organization swept in and took the operation over. {{storylink|Escalation issue 5}} This organization, [[Skywatch]], had also recovered Ravage and Laserbeak back in 1985. {{storylink|Spotlight: Soundwave}}

Skywatch repaired and attempted to control their captives through neural inhibitors, but the results were consistently disastrous. As the Dynobots and cassettes wreaked havoc (due to the [[Machination]]'s interference) or otherwise pursued unknown agendas (due to Soundwave's interference), Skywatch commander [[Joshua Red]] decided to use a less sophisticated method on their last remaining subject. Bringing Shockwave online in their Salt Lake City base, Red told him there was a bomb in his head set to detonate in 24 hours if Skywatch didn't transmit a reset code. Shockwave's task was to take down the rogue [[Transformer]]s in that time. Shockwave casually asked if they knew how much damage he could do in 24 hours, then he made a beeline for Soundwave, who was active but still mode-locked in a [[Portland]], [[Oregon]] child's possession. {{storylink|Maximum Dinobots issue 3}}
[[Image:Shockwave V Scorponok MD.jpg‎‎|200px|thumb|right|Hypothesis: [[...All This and Civil War 2|Turnabout is fair play]].]]
At the same time, Soundwave was using his broadcast abilities to block Skywatch's control over Ravage and Laserbeak, who retrieved Soundwave from his human captivity. The three returned to Mt. St. Helens, where Shockwave joined them and struck a deal. {{storylink|Maximum Dinobots issue 4}} Deducing that his own weapon had mode-locked Soundwave, Shockwave offered to undo its effects, but only after they helped him thwart Skywatch's threat to himself. They agreed, and the first step of the plan was for the cassettes to help Shockwave feign obedience to Skywatch. Shockwave told Skywatch where to find the cassettes, and indeed Ravage and Laserbeak allowed themselves to be recaptured without a fight.

[[Image:Shockwave V Dynos.jpg‎|250px|thumb|left|"And we'll KEEP dancing until we get it RIGHT!"]]
Meanwhile, Shockwave played out his own part by seeking the Dynobots. But he found them already engaged with [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] and the Machination, whom Shockwave decided to attack first so he could destroy the Dynobots himself. Observing the battle, Joshua Red ordered the explosives detonated only if Shockwave ''succeeded,'' since it would guarantee a "clean sweep" of all the combatants and their bodies. If Shockwave was still in battle when the 24 hours were up, Red wanted the reset code sent instead, presumably because he feared anyone but Shockwave walking away alive and unsubdued. It is unclear if Shockwave had deduced this, but his actions produced the effect he desired. By the time Shockwave beat Scorponok, only 12 minutes remained, and Grimlock proved to have more than 12 minutes' worth of fight left in him. On the 30-second mark, the two were still grappling in a Machination arms bunker, so Red ordered the reset code sent. The code was intercepted and decrypted by Soundwave, who transmitted the information to Shockwave, who in return sent him instructions to mentally disable the mode-lock. Soundwave transformed, his cassettes attacked their would-be captors, and Shockwave abruptly walked away from his fight, declaring an end to the "charade." But Grimlock would not be denied his revenge, so before Shockwave could leave, he detonated a grenade that blew the arms bunker sky-high. The two were soon recovered, still functioning, by [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], who took both Shockwave and Scorponok into custody. {{storylink|Maximum Dinobots issue 5}}

During Shockwave's time in Skywatch captivity, the researchers had gathered enough information about him to design a weapon based on his technology. According to [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Cmdr. Spike Witwicky]], the first working prototypes were the size of a house, but with some unspecified "outside help," they were able to condense it to a size small enough for hand-held use by a human. It was stored in a secret [[New York City]] facility, and when the city was overrun by Megatron's forces, Spike was sent in with a military squad to retrieve it and use it to kill Megatron. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 9}} Though his team perished, Spike survived, got the weapon, and successfully shot Megatron in the head, ending the Decepticon occupation. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 12}}

[[Image:LastStandoftheWreckers3 - Shockwave.jpg|150px|thumb|right|So do we blame Shockwave for letting Overlord off his leash, or Overlord for unleashing the one-eyed purple people eater again?]]
The Autobots imprisoned Shockwave at [[Garrus-9]], separating his head from his body in the process. However, one year after [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]]'s arrival in Garrus-9, he revived Shockwave. In exchange for his freedom and a hand-picked crew, Overlord wanted Shockwave to remove a virus Megatron had implanted in him prior to his rebellion. Shockwave agreed to the terms as they served his own purposes, however he was quick to comment that Overlord's actions on Garrus-9 were less about the former general's gratification and more about attracting Megatron's attention. {{storylink|Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 3}}

Shockwave eventually wound up on the same asteroid where many Decepticons had set up camp after escaping from Earth. He claimed to be working on rebuilding the Space Bridge. However, no one had bothered to observe his work, and even if they had, none of them had the knowledge to understand what he might be doing.{{storylink|The Transformers issue 7}}

Later, [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] reflected on an event he called "Shockwave's resurgence." It is unclear exactly what this was or when this happened. {{storylink|Spotlight: Sideswipe}}

{{-}}

===IDW ''Hearts of Steel'' comics===
After awakening in 19th century America, Shockwave took on the form of an ironclad warship and recruited inventor [[Tobias Muldoon]] to the Decepticon side (by pretending to be a friend to humanity). {{storylink|Hearts of Steel issue 1}} He took Muldoon to his Decepticon comrades underwater, where he was questioned by [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]. {{storylink|Hearts of Steel issue 2}} As a huge ship, he did not participate in the [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]]'s attempted attack on New York, and thus may have survived the story unharmed. Clever bot.

 

==Toys==
{{main|Shockwave (G1)/toys}}

==Merchandise==
{{main|Shockwave (G1)/toys#Merchandise}}

==Notes==
[[Image:ToyCoAstroMagnum.jpg|250px|thumb|"Shackwave"? '''"Shackwave"?!''' RADIOWAVE, [[fandom|you]] idiots!]]
* Although Shockwave was depicted in the very first episode of the original cartoon series, he did not receive a toy release until early in 1985. Unlike the bulk of early Transformers that drew their molds from [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Diaclone]]'' and ''[[Micro Change|Microchange]]'' toys, Shockwave's original form was first produced by ToyCo as the "[http://www.robot-japan.com/Gallery/Takara/Transformers/G1/AstroMagnum/Toybox-Astro-Magnum.asp 4 Changeable Astro Magnum]". As such, similar non-Transformer toys using the same mold were released in 1985, including a [[RadioShack]] exclusive called "Galactic Man". A minor but amusing difference between the Radio Shack version, humorously called "Shackwave" by fans, and the [[Hasbro]] version, is that Shockwave's inconveniently placed trigger was remolded and appears less... inconvenient.
* The Astro Magnum mold also appears to have been licensed to a small company called Village Toys in the 1980s, where it showed up in their [http://counter-x.net/footnotes/convert-a-bots/index.html Convert-A-Bots] line under the name "N-4-SR". This release was [http://plasticcrack.net/archives/2009/04/convert-a-bot_shockwave_that_is_not_shockwave dark grey, with purple highlights].
[[Image:StudioOxCybertronBattleCons.jpg|250px|thumb|It's not easy being grey. It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things.]]
* A Cybertronian battle scene in ''[[TV Magazine]]'' (reprinted in ''[[Transformers Generations]]'' and ''[[Transformers Visualworks]]'') depicts Shockwave not in purple, but in the original grey color scheme of the Astro Magnum/Galactic Man toy.
* Shockwave has been periodically drawn with two hands in various media. He first shows up this way in [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1]], and the condition briefly reappears in [[Divide and Conquer]]. He also wound up this way on the cover of ''[[Ashes, Ashes...|G.I. Joe and the Transformers]]'' #3.
* Voice actor Corey Burton based Shockwave's voice on that of actor [[wikipedia:David Warner (actor)|David Warner]], specifically his role as evil computer thingy [[wikipedia:Sark (Tron)|Sark]] in ''[[wikipedia:Tron (film)|Tron]]''.<ref>[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/60-astrominutes/corey-burton/corey_burton_1.html Corey Burton interview on the Cybertron Chronicle]</ref> Burton even provided the voice of Sark in the video game ''[[wikipedia:Kingdom Hearts II|Kingdom Hearts II]]''.
* In contrast to Megatron, when Shockwave transforms, he does not [[Size changing|change size]]. He can also fly, aim, and fire himself in gun mode. [[Combiner|Combiners]] are large enough to wield him. {{storylink|The Revenge of Bruticus}}
[[Image:Starbrigade.jpg|125px|thumb|Product and colors (and franchise) may vary.]]
* In the Japanese dub of the Generation 1 cartoon, Shockwave's personality was altered from the American interpretation—he was presented like a grizzled old man with a loud, raspy voice and a very short temper.
* One of the earliest pictured versions of Action Master Shockwave features some awkward proportions and Fistfight with reversed colors. Another oddity of this version is that Shockwave's right hand is sculpted in an open position.
* A silhouette of Action Master Shockwave's card art appears on the back of the [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] Star Brigade packaging... as [[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]]!
* Shockwave is, of course, the basis for the ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Decepticon [[homage]] [[character]] [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]].
* A company named Lanard Toys held the "Shockwave" [[trademark]] in the "toys" field for several years. For that reason, the ''Energon'' toy/character mentioned above was given the substitute name "Shockblast". The same name was later given to the ''[[Alternators]]'' version of G1 Shockwave for the same reason. However, by that point Lanard had abandoned their "Shockwave" trademark, making it available to Hasbro again. Unfortunately, the packaging for ''Alternators'' Shockwave had already been printed by that point, so Hasbro decided to go with the substitute name. They then slapped the name "Shockwave" onto the [[Shockwave (Cybertron)|next available]] [[Mini-Con]] just so they could reclaim the trademark. Subsequently, all new toys of the G1 Shockwave character, as well as [[Shockwave (Animated)|homage characters]], were released under the name "Shockwave" again. (Ironically, [[Hasbro]] later used the name "[http://www.yojoe.com/action/08/shockblast.shtml Shockblast]" for new toys of a ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I.Joe]]'' character originally also named "[http://www.yojoe.com/action/88/shockwave.shtml Shockwave]", possibly in order to avoid brand confusion; apparently, Hasbro view the name "Shockwave" as more iconic for the Transformers character than his G.I. Joe namesake.)
* Shockwave bears the rather strange distinction of receiving a number of particularly high quality [[Knockoff|knockoffs]], all of which known retain the electronics and some even having odd [[wikipedia:Flash Gordon|Flash Gordonesque]] [[Retool|retools]].
 

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/1985/Decepticon/Shockwave/shockwave.htm Shockwave at TFU.info]
* [http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Shockwave Shockwave's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternators]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Decepticon leaders]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category:Rulers of Cybertron]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Strategists]]

Optimus Prime (Armada)

2010-07-03T21:56:44Z

173.71.105.23: /* Armada */

{{factions|autobot|{{factions/icons|custom=Energon Powerlinx symbol.png|cLink=Powerlinx}}}}
{{disambig3|Optimus Prime}}
:''Optimus Prime is the [[Autobot]] leader from the [[Unicron Trilogy]] continuity family.''

[[Image:ArmadaOptimusPrime dvd.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Prime, Prime, and [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Prime]].]]
'''Optimus Prime''' fights for truth, justice, and the Autobot way. He has led the search for the [[Mini-Con]]s, faced the resurrection of a [[Unicron|dark god]], and now aims to stop [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] from obtaining the [[Cyber Planet Key]]s. He's also died a couple times, and tends to find a second-in-commandy-type to combine with to form a super robot.

He learns martial arts from [[Scavenger (Armada)|whoever]] turns into a [[Landmine (Energon)|bulldozer]], thinks [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] has leadership potential and tends to recruit teenage children.

Also, he wants to make sure you don't sit too close to the TV screen. <ref>It's true! In a pre-show warning screen before every episode of ''Super Link'' (the Japanese version of ''Energon''), Optimus Prime would appear in still frame, telling kids to make sure they watch the show in a well-lit room, and not to sit too close to the screen. This isn't particularly uncommon in anime...not after, well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denn%C5%8D_Senshi_Porygon You know.]</ref>

:''Japanese name'': '''[[Convoy]]''' (''Micron Legend''), '''Jet Convoy''' (combined with [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]]), '''Grand Convoy''' (''Super Link''), '''Wing Convoy''' (combined with [[Wing Saber]]), '''Omega Convoy''' (combined with [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]]), '''Galaxy Convoy''' (''Galaxy Force''), '''Liger Convoy''' (combined with [[Overhaul (Cybertron)|Ligerjack]]), '''Sonic Convoy''' (combined with [[Wing Saber|Sonic Bomber]])
:''Hungarian name'': '''Első Optimusz''' ("Optimus, the First" or "Uproar of the Country's Little Fandom")
:''Polish ''Armada'' name'': '''Optimus Pierwszy''' (Optimus First)

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave comics continuity===
====''Armada''====
[[Image:DWArmadaPreview OptimusPrime ouch.jpg|left|200px|thumb| Oh slag. There goes my bonus.]]
One million years ago, Optimus Prime was in the satellite room of Autobot Headquarters in [[Cyber City]] when [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] unexpectedly arrived, carrying unsettling news of an attack on the [[Mini-Con]] Village D-10 by Transformers calling themselves "[[Decepticon]]s". {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 1}} While the Autobots investigated the remains of Mini-Con Village D-52, Optimus Prime demanded that they find clues as to what had occurred, as he did not know why the Mini-Cons had been taken and feared that these Decepticons had started a civil war. Soon afterwards, [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] and his Decepticons invaded Cyber City and declared that the inhabitants now belonged to him. The Autobots arrived to defend the city, but were soundly beaten by the Mini-Con augmented Decepticons. Realizing that they were no match for the Decepticons, Optimus Prime ordered a retreat, for if they stayed and fought, they would die. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 2}}

Over the next million years, the Mini-Con empowered Decepticons steadily conquered the planet. Concerned that the conflict could escalate and put other worlds at risk, the [[Universal Peacekeeping Committee]] sent the famed mediator [[Fflaxl]] to the relatively unknown [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] in an attempt to settle the dispute between the Autobot and Decepticon "tribes" peacefully. However, just as he arrived, Megatron and Optimus Prime were in the midst of a battle, and Optimus Prime was sent flying, eventually landing on [[Bix]], Fflaxl's bodyguard. The diplomat, seeing the scale of the war and its participants, decided that some conflicts were best left untouched and that everything would work out in the end. {{storylink|Armada Preview}} Meanwhile, the [[Exodus (Armada)|Mini-Con escape ship]] crash landed on a distant world known as [[Earth]], dispersing the occupants all over the planet. A member of the indigenous [[human]] species, [[Rad White]], stumbled upon the crash site and inadvertently activated the Mini-Con homing device, where it was detected by both Autobot and Decepticon forces. Optimus Prime resolved to go to this planet Earth, believing that this might be their second chance to being back justice to their home. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 3}}

[[Image:DWArmada4 OptimusPrime bruteforcelecture.jpg|right|200px|thumb| Oh no they DIDN'T!]]
The Autobots led by Optimus Prime used the [[space bridge]] to travel to Earth, unfortunately appearing right in front of a [[Miss Ruby|group of human children]] on a field trip to the [[Allspark Power Generator Station]]. Optimus Prime quickly decided that stealth was of the utmost importance and that they should minimize contact with the local inhabitants, a policy that was questioned by [[Smokescreen (Armada)|Smokescreen]] and [[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]], who just wished to tear through the planet to find the Mini-Cons, as their own troubles were of greater concern. This brought on them an angry rebuke from Optimus who declared that they weren't about to endanger Earth or its inhabitants to serve Autobot interests, but he also understood their frustration, telling them to save their anger for the Decepticons. Meanwhile, the Decepticons had also arrived on Earth and were giving chase to Rad, [[Alexis]], [[Carlos Lopez|Carlos]] and their Mini-Con friends, [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]] and the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Street Action Team]]. As [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] and [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] caught up to the fugitives, Optimus Prime and Scavenger appeared and knocking them out of the sky. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 4}}

When Megatron arrived on the scene, Optimus Prime bided his time while Smokescreen got into position and distracted his enemy by trash talking, mocking that for all of Megatron's Mini-Con-enhanced power, he had continually failed to defeat the Autobots. Alexis thought that he was a "big red blabbermouth" while Carlos opined that it was like watching a wrestling match due to all the talking they were doing before fighting. Suddenly, Smokescreen pulverised the cliff Megatron was perched upon, burying the Decepticon leader in rubble. At first, Prime was able to beat on Megatron, but the Decepticon's Mini-Con advantage proved too much, and Megatron [[Powerlinx]]ed with all of his Mini-Cons, intending to obliterate all of Prime's circuits for his disrespect. Fortunately, [[Jolt (Armada)|Jolt]]'s team of Mini-Cons arrived, saving Rad and the others, then Powerlinking with the Autobots to force the Decepticons into retreat. The Mini-Cons requested an alliance with the Autobots, on the condition that they were equals in partnership. Optimus Prime agreed, stating the Autobots desperately needed the Mini-Cons' powers, but it was ultimately the choice of the diminutive robots to make. With the alliance formed, Optimus Prime ordered the Autobots to find suitable Earth vehicle modes and the construction of a local headquarters, for he had a feeling they were going to stay on this alien world for a long time. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 5}}

[[Image:DWArmada7 OptimusPrime StarSaber.jpg|left|350px|thumb|]]
Later, Optimus Prime sought out the kids at the [[Black Hills]] to tell them goodbye, as he felt they had been dragged into their war too deeply already. He wanted Sparkplug's support in the decision, but before the Mini-Con could fully voice his opinion, he received an emergency transmission from [[Sonar (Armada)|Sonar]] of the [[Air Defense Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Air Defense Mini-Con Team]], who were under attack by the Decepticons in [[Rapid City]], [[South Dakota]]. Sparkplug proposed a covert rescue operation, but Optimus Prime flatly refused, fearing the Autobot Mini-Cons could be captured by the Decepticons. Fed up with Prime telling them what they could and couldn't do, the Mini-Cons and the kids went on their own. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 6}} Meanwhile, Megatron had modified and forced the Air Defense Team to powerlink together to form the mighty [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]], and used it to attack the [[Autobase (Armada)|Autobase]] in [[Nebraska|Lincoln]]. During the ensuing battle, Optimus Prime implored for the Air Defense Team to resist Megatron's manipulations and free themselves, as the power came from the three of them, not the one weapon, a concept that Megatron found unfathomable, as all he cared about was controlling the power. Sparkplug and the others returned to make amends, powerlinking with the Autobots to give them the edge they needed. Now on equal footing, Optimus fought back, telling Megatron and the Air Defense Team that it was about ''respect'': respect for the power and for the individual. The Air Defense Team broke free of their bonds and attacked the Decepticon leader. After the Decepticons retreated, so too did the [[Land Military Mini-Con Team|Land Military Team]] and the Air Defense Team. Prime felt that because there was now a balance to the war, the non-aligned Mini-Cons were right to leave and not tip the balance for either side. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 7}}

[[Image:DWArmada10 OptimusPrime Illbeback.jpg|right|200px|thumb| Optimus Schwarzenegger.]]
Soon afterwards, a monolith crashed in Tranquility, [[Kansas]] and sent out a signal which summoned all Mini-Cons on Earth to converge at the monolith's location. [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] was not especially concerned considering the Autobot Mini-Cons could come and go as they pleased and that they might have just needed some time to cool off, but Optimus Prime was worried: after the situation with the Air Defense Team, he was unsure of what they might do next. While the Mini-Cons were in their trance-like state, the Decepticons arrived, intent on claiming all of Earth's Mini-Cons for themselves. Rad used Sparkplug's communications systems to call Optimus Prime for help, which soon arrived. Unfortunately, while the Autobots and Decepticons fought amongst themselves, the Mini-Cons (and Rad) entered the monolith and blasted off into space. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 8}} As the Autobots left for home, Optimus Prime explained to the kids the significance of the giant Mini-Con symbol that had been burned into the ground and that Rad had been taken to the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. He also told them the story about how the Mini-Cons had escaped Cybertron and eventually crashed their ship on the Moon, breaking it in half and sending the bow to Earth. Optimus' only plan was to wait for Megatron to make his move, and try to stop them, for they had no options for reaching the Moon that would not require specialised equipment or actions that would compromise their security on Cybertron. However, an opportunity provided itself when the majority of the Decepticon left for the Moon {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 9}}, allowing Hot Shot and Red Alert to erase any Decepticon sensor logs while Optimus Prime used the space bridge to travel to the Autobase on Cybertron. Unfortunately, [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] had his hands full and resented Optimus Prime not leading the Autobots on Cybertron. However, Optimus did manage to get his hands on an [[Autobot shuttle|Autobot Transport Gunship]] {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 10}}, which he used to travel to the Moon. Unbeknownst to Optimus, however, the selfish and cruel [[Destruction Mini-Con Team|Destruction Team]] leader [[Dualor]] had strapped Rad into one of the space mines protecting to Moon, and now Optimus was preparing to destroy the minefield, but he hesitated. While Sparkplug's Mini-Con friends and the [[Space Mini-Con Team|Space Team]] were working on rescuing Rad, Optimus Prime realised an itchy trigger finger would be disastrous. Optimus correctly deduced that [[Sky Blast]] meant no harm and allowed him to dock with the gunship whilst towing the dummy mine containing Rad. After blasting Cyclonus into pieces for attacking their ship, Optimus thanked Sky Blast for his help, and gave those back on the [[Mini-Con Fortress Base]] transportation to Earth promising them that he and his compatriots were in for a lot of changes in how the Autobots treated them. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 11}}

[[Image:DWArmada13_Autobots_Mini-Cons.jpg|thumb|left|350px|]]

Prime's word was soon tested when two crises occurred at the same time: Scavenger and Smokescreen had detected the Decepticons building some sort of rocket launch facility in Death Valley, [[California]], and a Mini-Con escape pod from the Moon had been detected in northern [[Alaska]]. At first, the Autobot leader preferred to deal with the Decepticon situation, until Sparkplug convinced him that if he didn't assist the Mini-Cons, the ones in the Autobase would be walking out. With political concerns in mind, Optimus Prime offered the full resources of the Autobots in mounting a rescue mission, which seemed to satisfy the fractious Mini-Cons. {{storylink|Fire & Ice}} Unfortunately, additional problems presented themselves when [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]], overjuiced on the full power of the Destruction Team, began attacking any and all targets while Megatron was blasting them with his [[Solar Scalpel]], a superweapon deployed from the rocket in Death Valley. With little choice, Optimus asked Sparkplug to powerlink with him at maximum power, enabling the Autobot to defeat Cyclonus. With the crisis averted and the Mini-Cons rescued, a disappointed Optimus asked Sparkplug why he had been holding back on him, as he thought they trusted one another. As Sparkplug told him the legend of the Mini-Cons having the power to save the universe or destroy it, Optimus was suddenly taken to Cybertron, where he witnessed its destruction...{{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 13}}

[[Image:WorldsCollide4_JetOptimus.jpg|thumb|250px|—a [[Furmanism|FURMANISM]]!]]

While the Autobots tried to figure out what had happened to him, Optimus wandered across the blasted ruins of Cybertron, he discovered [[Spinister (G1)|a lone survivor]], who had been reduced to a gibbering wreck. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 1 of 4}} Optimus Prime refused to believe the confused, fragmented story the survivor told: Prince of Nothingness came, the heavens opened up, and their final judgment was pronounced. All those who fought perished and everything was destroyed. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 2 of 4}} As [[Unicron]], the devourer of worlds closed in on Cybertron, Optimus begged the survivor to tell him of any way to fight back against the monster. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 3 of 4}} Sadly, the survivor was beyond help, allowing himself to be sucked into the oblivion of Unicron's maw, despite Optimus' pleas for him to resist. Unicron noticed the lone Cybertronian and took the form of the survivor, proclaiming that like this reality's [[Optimus Prime (Worlds Collide)|Optimus Prime]], the Autobot would fall and his universe would be consumed - the gateway was being prepared by his heralds. Suddenly, Jetfire appeared, having jumped through a space bridge portal after destroying the Decepticon space bridge nexus that Unicron's heralds were using to open up space for their master to enter that reality. As this fallen Cybertron crumbled, Sparkplug, [[Comettor]] and the mysterious Mini-Con [[Over-Run (Armada)|Over-Run]] appeared, having crossed realities to find the Autobot leader. Over-Run handed Optimus the [[Mini-Con Matrix]], the essence of this doomed Cybertron's Mini-Cons, giving the two Autobots the power to transform and combine into Jet Optimus. With one mighty blast, Jet Optimus delivered a broadside to Unicron, giving them enough time to escape back to their reality. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4}}

With the fate of their universe at stake, Optimus called on the Mini-Cons scattered on Earth to join the Autobots and Decepticons in fighting Unicron. As Cybertron's general, Optimus stood as the bulwark against the Chaos Bringer's onslaught, leading their combined forces until the Mini-Cons united their power to delivery an almighty blast at Unicron, sending him back into the unknown. Though victorious, Optimus Prime considered that with such pure evil, [[Furmanism|it may never be over]], and they must be eternally vigilant. {{Storylink|The End}}
{{-}}

====''Energon''====
[[Image:Optimusprime ut armada px.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Optimus Prime (Powerlinx) during the years between the Unicron Battles and Energon. He thinks if he's not red and blue, nobody will recognize him.]]
Ten years after the defeat of Unicron, Over-Run showed Prime how to commune with Cybertron itself. Doing so reformatted the Autobot leader into a body capable of [[Powerlinx|Powerlinking]] with a team of [[Prime Force|'drone' vehicles]], and granted him (and the other Autobots) the ability to combine with each other.

Upon returning to Earth, he decided that the Autobots would no longer hide from the inhabitants, but work with them openly. This decision led, among other things, to the Autobots' induction into the UN.

When last seen ''(before the bankruptcy of [[Dreamwave Productions]])'', he was attempting to escape from within the remains of [[Unicron]], after Megatron's trapped spark used him to regain his freedom.

{{charstubfiction}}
{{-}}

===Cartoon continuity===
====''Armada''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Tōru Ōkawa]] (Japanese), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Pierre-Peters Arnold]] (German), [[Niclas Ekholm]] (Swedish) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

{{charstubfiction}}

[[Image:Pre-arm-scavenger.JPG|left|180px|thumb|"Maybe we shouldn't have fired lasers at the mirrors."]]
[[MYA|Millions of years ago]], a young Optimus Prime fought with a great Decepticon warrior known as [[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]]. So frequent were their clashes, and so familiar were they to each other, the pair eventually became friends, and Scavenger signed up with the Autobots. Seeing great potential in the young Autobot leader, Scavenger taught Optimus Prime how to fight in hand-to-hand combat. Later, veteran Autobot [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] trained Optimus in [[metallikato]] shortly before leaving [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] with [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]]. Optimus later notes that their training made him the warrior and soldier he is today. {{storylink|Trust (Armada)|Trust}}

Many years later, it was a more mature Optimus Prime that led a small Autobot unit to [[Earth]] after the activation of the [[Mini-Con]] homing beacon. This beacon signaled to all the Transformers on Cybertron that the much-coveted Mini-Cons had survived their million years-long disappearance. After leaving his second-in-command [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] in charge of the Autobot forces on Cybertron and warping to Earth {{storylink|Prehistory}}, Optimus saved [[Rad White|three]] [[Carlos Lopez|human]] [[Alexis|children]] from the [[Decepticon]] leader, [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], who arrived on the alien world first.

[[Image:FirstEncounter_Prime.jpg|right|180px|thumb|He's part Optimus Prime, part [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], part [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] and all Optimus Prime.]]
Clashing with his arch enemy, Optimus Prime bought the children and their Mini-Con [[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]] time to escape while around them, other Transformers warped into the battlefield. {{storylink|First Encounter}}{{storylink|Metamorphosis}} Realizing that he was defeated, Megatron ordered a retreat, allowing Optimus and his subordinates, [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] and [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]], time to reformat themselves into suitable new Earth bodies, while the Decepticons likewise did so on their moon base. Later, after the Decepticons returned to Earth in an attempt to capture the [[Street Action Team]] Mini-Cons that had been awakened by the children, Optimus Prime and the Autobots saved the children again. This time, Prime unveiled his Earth body's [[Optimus Prime Super Modes|super mode]] and put it to good use.

Befriending the children, Optimus brought them back to the Autobots' hidden base and introduced his crew to them. He told them of the sad history of the conflict on Cybertron and how the Mini-Cons had fled from their home planet to maintain their freedom, but also that there existed a legend that the Mini-Cons, despite their use as weapons of war, held the key to peace in the universe. {{storylink|Base}} The children would aid Prime as he led his crew around the world, searching for the long-lost Mini-Cons, before the Decepticon forces could take them and use them for their own evil deeds.

[[Image:Arm ep 4 supermode prime max burst.jpg|left|180px|thumb|You feel lucky, punk?]]
Soon afterward, both the Autobots and Decepticons detected a Mini-Con signal located in the [[Grand Canyon]]. With the help of the kids, Optimus Prime managed to pinpoint the location of the Mini-Con panel before he was confronted by [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], powerlinked to [[Leader-1 (Armada)|Leader-1]]. Outgunned, Optimus Prime was saved when Starscream arrogantly underestimated the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Street Action Team's]] combined form of [[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]]. This distraction gave Optimus the opportunity to activate the Mini-Con panel, revealing that its occupant was [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]], Optimus Prime's old Mini-Con partner and friend. Together they Powerlinked, activating Optimus' powerful Maximum Blast which sent the Decepticons into retreat. {{storylink|Comrade}}

Through the treachery of [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]] and [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]], the Decepticons managed to secure all three of the [[Star Saber (Armada)|legendary]] [[Skyboom (Armada)|Mini-Con]] [[Requiem Blaster|weapons]] that form the [[Hydra Cannon]], the most powerful weapon in the universe. Mounting their new doomsday device aboard a starship, Megatron decided to wipe out the Autobot base on Earth, regardless of the massive collateral damage to the planet itself. Optimus Prime and Jetfire launched a pre-emptive strike against the warship in the hopes of disabling the weapon and rescuing the Mini-Cons. However, they were outnumbered, forcing a desperate Optimus to throw himself into the path of the cannon and use the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to save Earth, but at the cost of his life. {{storylink|Crisis}}

Under the leadership of Hot Shot, the other Autobots gave chase to the Decepticons aboard the [[Axalon (Armada)|Axalon]]. During a confrontation with their enemies, the Mini-Cons reached out to each other and resurrected Optimus from within the Matrix. There was little time to rejoice, as the Autobots pursued the Decepticons on their way back to Cybertron. {{storylink|Miracle}}

[[Image:Armada 52 - Prime with tread piece.jpg|left|250px|thumb|My God, it's full of stars...]]
After Unicron's apparent defeat, both Optimus Prime and Galvatron succumbed to their base natures and had one last battle within the Chaos Bringer. Fighting each other to a standstill, both were surprised when Unicron suddenly came back to life, feeding off their hate for each other. Galvatron was drawn toward Unicron's maw, with Prime holding onto his tank treads, telling him to hold on. His nemesis then made the decision to sacrifice his life, giving Prime a final victory, so that Unicron might be destroyed and their race would survive.

In the aftermath, Optimus Prime reflected that he didn't deserve the [[Matrix of Leadership]] and left both the Autobots and Cybertron for places unknown. {{storylink|Mortal Combat}}

{{-}}

====''Energon''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Katsuyuki Konishi]] (Japanese), [[Niclas Ekholm]] (Swedish) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

[[Image:EnergonOptimusForms.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Me, myself, and I... and ''me'']]
8,000 eons ago, Optimus Prime stayed on Cybertron to continue its defense, even as Rodimus led a group of Transformers away from the planet, into space, in search of a new home. {{storylink|The Legend of Rodimus}}

A few years after the defeat of Unicron, Optimus Prime returned from exile to a newly-unified Cybertron where Autobots and Decepticons lived side-by-side in peace. Reassuming leadership of the Autobots, Optimus Prime established a dialogue with the Earth governments with the help of his human friends. Earth sent a delegation to Cybertron, consisting of the three kids and [[Brian Jones (Energon)|Dr. Brian Jones]], the foremost expert in the newly discovered ore [[Energon (Energon)|energon]] that both worlds coveted.

Jones brought along his young son, [[Kicker Jones|Chad]] (also known as 'Kicker'), who was frightened by the tall, menacing robots. When the boy ran away to a ruined and abandoned part of Cybertron, Optimus Prime gave chase, warning Kicker that the area was strictly off limits. The boy accidentally fell and found his way into a massive darkened chamber where an energy being known as [[Primus]] saved him. Optimus Prime found his way into the chamber just as Primus evolved the human child. Sometime after this, Primus (now known as the creator-god of the Transformers), gave Optimus the [[Spark of Combination]], allowing Optimus to grant combining powers to other Autobots. Prime could also now combine with a [[Prime Force|squad of four drone vehicles]], which rode around with him in his trailer when not in use.

Almost a decade later, the energon mining facilities in Sol's asteroid belt, as well as their base on [[Mars (planet)|Mars]], were attacked by a mysterious force of beast-like Transformers. Primus warned Optimus that the enemy was after the energon, causing Optimus to assemble a unit so he could personally assess the situation. Finding no life on Mars, his unit then moved to Earth, where he saved Kicker and Ocean City from an attack by the same creatures. {{storylink|Cybertron City (episode)|Cybertron City}}

Prime agreed to the evacuation of Ocean City, then led a counterattack against the Terrorcons at [[Lunar City]]. He assigned the headstrong Kicker to be partners with the rookie Ironhide, suspecting that the experience would be difficult but beneficial for both of them. {{storylink|Energon Stars}} Prime prepared his troops to defend Earth's Cybertron Cities from further attack. {{storylink|Scorpinok}} Eventually the Terrorcons' attacks forced him to make a difficult call, abandoning the survivors at [[Mars City]] in favor of remaining to defend Ocean City. In the battle that followed, the sight of Megatron's sword caused Prime to wonder if his old nemesis might still be alive. At the same time, the Decepticon troops under his command began abandoning the cause one by one. {{storylink|Megatron's Sword}}

Optimus continued to lead his team against Terrorcon attacks, but soon found himself face-to-face with his oldest and greatest foe. {{storylink|Megatron Resurrected}} In a subsequent battle at Ocean City, the two threw down with all their power. Armed with a copy of Megatron's sword, Optimus was able to defeat him and force the Decepticons to retreat. {{storylink|Megatron Raid}}

Optimus soon found himself stalked by the ghostly Starscream, who secretly followed him around Ocean City, hoping for a chance to assassinate him. Prime lured Starscream to the Moon, where they could battle without interference or collateral damage. Starscream revealed his plans to revive Unicron, causing Prime no small measure of consternation. Though the teleporting Starscream maintained the advantage, Optimus was able to generate "[[Energon Blaster|Hot Shot's blaster]]" during a subsequent Decepticon attack, using it to drive off the attackers. {{storylink|Starscream the Mysterious Mercenary}}

Prime then led a team into the asteroid belt, where they destroyed an asteroid that looked nothing like Unicron, because it looked like Unicron. {{storylink|Battle of the Asteroid Belt}}

Prime continued to lead Earth's defense until Dr. Jones's [[energon tower (building)|energon tower]] could be completed, ensuring the planet's safety. {{storylink|Energon Tower (episode)|Energon Tower}} This role forced him into a difficult decision, detonating the energon stores of [[Jungle City]] in the midst of an overwhelming attack. Although the explosion repulsed the attacking Decepticons, it also obliterated some of Earth's most ancient ruins and an entire Cybertron city. {{storylink|Crisis in Jungle City}}

Prime next clashed with Megatron at [[Lunar City]], but once again a newly-arrived Energon Tower cut the battle short.
{{storylink|Kicker Beware!}} He then led a space-based defense against several giant "comets" that Megatron had created to destroy Earth, which was ultimately saved by the final completion of the energon grid. {{storylink|Energon Grid}}

With Earth secure, Optimus decided to lead his team into space, to pursue and destroy Unicron before Megatron could revive the planet-eater. {{storylink|Rodimus: Friend or Foe?}} As the Autobots prepared to leave Earth's [[solar system]] aboard the ''[[Miranda II]]'', the Decepticons attacked once more; struggling with Megatron, Optimus narrowly avoided getting caught by the ship's energon grid. Demolishor wasn't so lucky. {{storylink|Go for Unicron!}}

Optimus had his team follow Kicker's energon-finding instincts, leading them to a misadventure on a frozen planet. {{storylink|The Return of Demolishor}} Soon after, Optimus was confronted by Rodimus—who shocked him with the proposal that Unicron must not be destroyed, but rather restored! Optimus wasn't convinced, and Rodimus went his own way. {{storylink|A Tale of Two Heros}} Optimus soon was forced to carry out his plan to lure Unicron into the space bridge and to Cybertron, where Rad assaulted Unicron with the planet's energon grid, massively damaging him. {{storylink|Battle Stations}}

With Unicron repulsed, Optimus led a team to Cybertron's surface, where the Decepticons were in rebellion. {{storylink|Alpha Q: Identity}} They soon learned that the Decepticon criminal [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] had escaped, and pursued him to the very chamber of Primus. Shockblast escaped, however, and Optimus soon had other concerns: Kicker was returning to Cybertron, with the head of Unicron! {{storylink|Shockblast: Rampage}}

At Kicker's insistence, Optimus met with the alien Alpha Q and heard his story. Moved, he agreed to help Alpha Q revive his planets, but the defense of Cybertron remained his top priority. When Unicron began lashing out at his captors, it was Optimus who recognized the actions as blind survival instinct. {{storylink|Survival Instincts}}

Prime returned to Cybertron's surface to lead the planet's defense as Megatron attacked again. He was present to witness Wing Dagger's death at the hands of Shockblast. {{storylink|Each One Fights...}} He subsequently led his team in a direct counter-attack against Unicron, seeking to infiltrate it and defeat Megatron inside. {{storylink|Unicron Unleashed}} Prime was fully prepared to face down his enemy in a one-on-one showdown, but instead was ambushed by a vengeful Shockblast and left damaged. Alone and facing two Decepticons, he was revived and saved by the arrival of an energon infusion from Earth. {{storylink|Open Fire!}}

Wing Dagger, now rebuilt as [[Wing Saber]], arrived and revealed that he and Optimus could combine, greatly enhancing their power. Prime rallied his troops to complete their mission of destroying Megatron. Before it could happen, however, Megatron triggered a catastrophic energon reaction, ripping [[Rift (Energon)|a hole in the fabric of space]] and fleeing into it. Optimus gamely led a team in pursuit of him. {{storylink|Ripped Up Space}}

{{charstubfiction}}

{{storylink|Team Optimus Prime}}
{{storylink|Protection}}
{{storylink|Imprisoned Inferno}}
{{storylink|Jungle Planet (episode)|Jungle Planet}}
{{storylink|Bulkhead (episode)|Bulkhead}}
{{storylink|Farewell Inferno}}
{{storylink|Crash Course}}
{{storylink|Omega Supreme (episode)|Omega Supreme}}
{{storylink|A Heroic Battle}}
{{storylink|The Power}}
{{storylink|Optimus Supreme}}
{{storylink|Unicron Perishes}}
{{storylink|Ambition}}
{{storylink|Wishes}}
{{storylink|Galvatron!}}
{{storylink|Break Through}}
{{storylink|Distribution}}
{{storylink|The Omega Train}}
{{storylink|Decepticon Army}}
{{storylink|Ironhide Team}}
{{storylink|Formidable}}
{{storylink|Galvatron Terror}}
{{storylink|Destructive Power}}
{{storylink|Spark (episode)|Spark}}
{{storylink|The Sun}}

====''Cybertron''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Taitem Kusunoki]] (Japanese), [[Eberhardt Haar]] (German) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

[[Image:CybertronPrime finalbattlepose.jpg|left|180px|thumb|"Weapons Primed..."]]
Primus' plan to trap Unicron inside an energon sun failed, and this star collapsed into a [[Unicron Singularity|massive black hole]]. Optimus Prime faced the greatest test in his existence when his home planet was threatened with destruction, but realised there was no choice but to evacuate the population to Earth. As they made plans to leave, a mysterious time-travelling Transformer named [[Vector Prime]] appeared, advising Optimus to search for the [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, the only means of restoring Primus' spark, and the only way they can save Cybertron and the rest of the universe from oblivion. {{storylink|Fallen (episode)|Fallen}}

Arriving on Earth, Optimus Prime was forced to break his own strict orders to hide from the human population when he rescued the injured [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] and three human children from [[Thundercracker (Armada)|Thundercracker]]. Befriending the children, named [[Coby Hansen|Coby]], [[Bud Hansen|Bud]] and [[Lori]], he relied on them to educate the Autobots about their new home and how to blend into the environment as Robots in Disguise. {{storylink|Inferno (episode)|Inferno}} {{storylink|Hidden}}

Soon afterward, the children's hometown of Boulder, Colorado was threatened. The newest tunnels in a recently-dug gold mine had destabilized a mountain, making its collapse imminent. This alone would only have damaged the mountain's immediate area, but matters were complicated when Autobot scans revealed the presence of an underground reservoir that would be forced out by the collapse, causing flooding. Coby had the idea of using Optimus Prime's pumping equipment to drain the reservoir, allowing [[Scattorshot (Cybertron)|Scattorshot]] to shatter the mountain with his largest missiles and collapse it safely, averting disaster. {{storylink|Collapse}}

{{charstubfiction}}

===Panini ''Armada'' comics===
In the early stages of the war, Optimus Prime was shocked to learn of a full-scale Decepticon assault on the Autobot Command HQ. As he organized the defenses, he was contacted by the [[Mini-Con]] [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]], who warned him that [[Dualor]] had planted explosives around the base in order to lure [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] in and destroy him. Prime subsequently ordered for the evacuation of the base before Dualor blew it up. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 9|Counter-Strike!}} He and his troops were still fighting the Decepticons a few million years later, but it was a losing battle. Even if most of the Mini-Cons had left Cybertron, the Decepticons still had a few of them, and the Autobots were outclassed. Despite this, Optimus Prime knew the Mini-Cons leaving had been a good thing, and hoped that he would never find out where they went. However, his hope did him no good, as the Mini-Cons were soon found on [[Earth]], and he had to travel there to save them from Megatron. {{storylink|First Encounter!}}

Having gone to Earth alone to scout ahead without any backup, Optimus Prime was quickly defeated by the Mini-Con augmented Megatron. Thankfully, a few of the free Mini-Cons and the [[human]] [[Rad White]] distracted Megatron from finishing Prime off, giving him time to recover and summon [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] and [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] through a [[space bridge]]. As the free Mini-Cons decided to aid the Autobots, Sparkplug power-linked with Optimus Prime and granted him the power needed to punch Megatron in the face. After the Decepticons retreated, Prime thanked the Mini-Cons and Rad for their help. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 2|Friends and Foes!}} He soon realized that Rad and his [[Carlos Lopez|two]] [[Alexis|friends]] weren't very large contributors to their war effort, as they spent most of the time playing around. Reminding them that Megatron was a deadly threat, he sent them to recover the [[locator log]] from the Mini-Cons' crashed ship whilst he and the Autobots stood guard. They log ended up being destroyed due to interference from [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]], but Optimus Prime figured that maybe it was for the best. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 3|Deep Trouble!}}

Prime decided that the best way to keep their Mini-Con allies out of the Decepticons' hands was to send them back to Cybertron, despite complaints from Sparkplug and the humans. When the process was interrupted by a Decepticon attack, the Mini-Cons refused to leave the Autobots bhind and and power-linked with them again. While the Decepticons were driven off, they still blew up the Autobots' space bridge, stranding them on Earth. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 4|No Way Back!}} Some time later, Optimus Prime and his troops saved the [[Air Defense Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Air Defense Team]] from geting captured by [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]]. In the aftermath, the Mini-Cons shot down Prime's offer to join the Autobots, but he still assured them he would help them whenever they needed him. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 5|Devices and Desires!}} Next, Optimus Prime learned from [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Laserbeak]] that the Decepticons had gone to search for Mini-Cons on the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. With his own space bridge still in pieces, he had no choice but to contact [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] on Cybertron for aid. While Jetfire sent troops to deal with the Decepticons, Prime watched as Sparkplug sent a probe to the Moon to activate any Mini-Cons there. After the probe was successful, Optimus Prime manifested as a hologram on the Moon's surface and taunted Megatron that he was too late. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 6|Between Two Worlds!}}

When Starscream got his hands on the [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]] and failed to keep its power in check, Optimus Prime appeared out of nowhere to stop the sword from going wild and ripping the world apart. He grabbed the weapon from Starscream's hands and urged the Air Defense Team to separate, which they did. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 7|The Two-Edged Blade}} The threat of the Moon soon came up again, as the Decepticons prepared to fire missiles at the Autobots' base from their new lunar base. While the Autobot space bridge was still down, Optimus Prime had a plan and ordered Hot Shot to hurry and repair it. While the Mini-Cons bought them some time by pretending to surrender, the Autobots fixed their space bridge and linked it to the Decepticons' one on the moon. And so, when the Decepticons eventually did fire their missiles, the Autobots simply used the space bridge to warp them straight back into the enemy base. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 8|Earthshaker!}}

===''Transformers Legends'' anthology===
Early in the war, Optimus confronted Megatron in [[Yellowstone National Park]], warning the Decepticon leader that the area they were in was geologically unstable and warfare could aggravate things catastrophically. Megatron ignored him and almost defeated Prime, until the intervention of [[Riptide]], [[QuickFire]] and [[Jake Williams]]. The unlikely team managed to see Megatron off, albeit with the loss of Williams's [[Starheart|beloved '57 Ford pickup]] into a mud pit. Optimus promised to retrieve and restore the truck, and suggested that Riptide and QuickFire return to hiding, to prevent the Decepticons from capturing them. {{storylink|Lonesome Diesel}}

Following his destruction by the Hydra Cannon, Optimus Prime found himself in [[Maccadam's Old Oil House]] on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], where he encountered an [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] from [[Generation 1 continuity family|another universe]], and two versions of [[Optimus Primal]] from that same universe. After establishing the possibility that alternate universe existed, the other three were able to help Optimus Prime overcome some of his doubts over his leadership abilities. That done, Optimus returned to life in time to save [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] from [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Prime Spark}}

===''Galaxy Force'' manga===
{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Touchdown! Optimus Prime}} {{storylink|The Devil's Dogfight! Coby's Courage}} {{storylink|Deep Sea Discovery! Vector Prime}} {{storylink|The Temple of Hell! Overhaul}}

==Games==
===Transformers Armada: The Energon Within===
As Optimus and Hot Shot prepare to escort a truckload of energon away from a mine, the Decepticons launch a full scale assault. Their objective is to steal 100 energon cubes. Though they eventually succeed, the cost is high and the mine remains in Autobot hands.

As Optimus and Hot Shot prepare to escort a truckload of energon away from a mine, the Decepticons launch a full scale assault. Their objective is to steal 100 energon cubes. Before they can succeed, Hot Shot inadvertently blows up the mine. {{storylink|Transformers Armada: The Energon Within}}

===''Transformers''===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English)

Optimus Prime was dueling with Megatron atop a very high building just before Megatron received the Mini-Con beacon. Following his nemesis to prevent him from using the Mini-Cons for evil, Prime arrived on a new planet: Earth.

Arriving in the Amazon, he familiarized himself with the territory before going and recovering the first Mini-Con Panel. (Which Mini-Con it is varies with the game difficulty, with [[Lock-On]] being released on the first two difficulty levels). He then traversed a [[Scale|disproportionate]] bridge, had a brawl inside a temple, and scaled a pathway up a cliff face before arriving at a run-down temple and encountering Cyclonus. Cyclonus (sporting a fanciful, comic British accent) ordered a [[Heavy Unit]] to attack him, declaring Earth as "Decepticon property". Prime took care of the Heavy Unit, and Hot Shot and Red Alert joined him. Soon they discovered their old Mini-Con partners. (Sparkplug remains with Optimus for the remainder of the game, activating a rather pointless "Powerlinx" Max Payne-esque bullet time mode which drains Prime's health.)

{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Transformers (PS2)}}

==Toys==
{{main|Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys}}

{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:MonsterConvoy.jpg|right|100px|thumb|Arise, Bigfootimus Prime.]]
* According to the [[Transformers (PS2)|''Armada'' Playstation 2 game]] instruction booklet, Optimus Prime's ''Armada'' body has the following statistics:

:Mass: 18,960 lbs
:Robot height: 22' 11"
:Robot top speed: 31 mph
:Vehicle height: 8' 3"
:Vehicle top speed: 125 mph
:Vehicle power: 700 hp @ 2500 rpm

* One of the earliest ''Armada'' Optimus Prime concepts depicts him as being an ENORMOUSLY HUGE MONSTER TRUCK. Makes one wonder about the origins of the "Monster Convoy" inscription on Super Base Optimus Prime's tires.

* For at least part of the ''Energon'' animated series, the CGI model for Optimus Prime's handgun resembled an oversized six-shooter rather than the actual toy's chamber-less handgun for unknown reasons.

* ''Cybertron'' Optimus Prime has some design similarities to GaoGaiGar from ''[[wikipedia:The_King_of_Braves_GaoGaiGar|The King of Braves GaoGaiGar]]'', such as the chin protrusion and cheekguards. In addition, his [[Super Mode]] resembles ChoRyuJin from the same series (having the same chest and cannons), and his combination with [[Leobreaker]] recalls GaoGaiGar's combination with Goldymarg. His combination with Wing Saber also invokes the image of Galeon's head on GaoGaiGar's chest. This would not be the [[Optimus_Prime_(RID)|first such GaoGaiGar reference]] Transformers would see... [[Safeguard_(Animated)|or the last]].
* Said Super Mode also evokes [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Powermaster Optimus Prime]].
*''Cybertron'' Prime also sported some different colors in his preliminary design, which accidentally found its way into a few shots in the [[Fallen_(episode)|first episode]].

== Footnotes ==
<references />

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2002/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm Optimus Prime at TFU.info]
* [http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/binalternator/unreleased/optimus_prime_mini_optimus_prime/ Energon Optimus Prime redeco with Smallest Transformers Optimus Prime gallery]

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Optimus Prime (Armada)

2010-07-03T21:29:39Z

173.71.105.23: /* Armada */

{{factions|autobot|{{factions/icons|custom=Energon Powerlinx symbol.png|cLink=Powerlinx}}}}
{{disambig3|Optimus Prime}}
:''Optimus Prime is the [[Autobot]] leader from the [[Unicron Trilogy]] continuity family.''

[[Image:ArmadaOptimusPrime dvd.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Prime, Prime, and [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Prime]].]]
'''Optimus Prime''' fights for truth, justice, and the Autobot way. He has led the search for the [[Mini-Con]]s, faced the resurrection of a [[Unicron|dark god]], and now aims to stop [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] from obtaining the [[Cyber Planet Key]]s. He's also died a couple times, and tends to find a second-in-commandy-type to combine with to form a super robot.

He learns martial arts from [[Scavenger (Armada)|whoever]] turns into a [[Landmine (Energon)|bulldozer]], thinks [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] has leadership potential and tends to recruit teenage children.

Also, he wants to make sure you don't sit too close to the TV screen. <ref>It's true! In a pre-show warning screen before every episode of ''Super Link'' (the Japanese version of ''Energon''), Optimus Prime would appear in still frame, telling kids to make sure they watch the show in a well-lit room, and not to sit too close to the screen. This isn't particularly uncommon in anime...not after, well. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denn%C5%8D_Senshi_Porygon You know.]</ref>

:''Japanese name'': '''[[Convoy]]''' (''Micron Legend''), '''Jet Convoy''' (combined with [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]]), '''Grand Convoy''' (''Super Link''), '''Wing Convoy''' (combined with [[Wing Saber]]), '''Omega Convoy''' (combined with [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]]), '''Galaxy Convoy''' (''Galaxy Force''), '''Liger Convoy''' (combined with [[Overhaul (Cybertron)|Ligerjack]]), '''Sonic Convoy''' (combined with [[Wing Saber|Sonic Bomber]])
:''Hungarian name'': '''Első Optimusz''' ("Optimus, the First" or "Uproar of the Country's Little Fandom")
:''Polish ''Armada'' name'': '''Optimus Pierwszy''' (Optimus First)

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave comics continuity===
====''Armada''====
[[Image:DWArmadaPreview OptimusPrime ouch.jpg|left|200px|thumb| Oh slag. There goes my bonus.]]
One million years ago, Optimus Prime was in the satellite room of Autobot Headquarters in [[Cyber City]] when [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] unexpectedly arrived, carrying unsettling news of an attack on the [[Mini-Con]] Village D-10 by Transformers calling themselves "[[Decepticon]]s". {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 1}} While the Autobots investigated the remains of Mini-Con Village D-52, Optimus Prime demanded that they find clues as to what had occurred, as he did not know why the Mini-Cons had been taken and feared that these Decepticons had started a civil war. Soon afterwards, [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] and his Decepticons invaded Cyber City and declared that the inhabitants now belonged to him. The Autobots arrived to defend the city, but were soundly beaten by the Mini-Con augmented Decepticons. Realizing that they were no match for the Decepticons, Optimus Prime ordered a retreat, for if they stayed and fought, they would die. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 2}}

Over the next million years, the Mini-Con empowered Decepticons steadily conquered the planet. Concerned that the conflict could escalate and put other worlds at risk, the [[Universal Peacekeeping Committee]] sent the famed mediator [[Fflaxl]] to the relatively unknown [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] in an attempt to settle the dispute between the Autobot and Decepticon "tribes" peacefully. However, just as he arrived, Megatron and Optimus Prime were in the midst of a battle, and Optimus Prime was sent flying, eventually landing on [[Bix]], Fflaxl's bodyguard. The diplomat, seeing the scale of the war and its participants, decided that some conflicts were best left untouched and that everything would work out in the end. {{storylink|Armada Preview}} Meanwhile, the [[Exodus (Armada)|Mini-Con escape ship]] crash landed on a distant world known as [[Earth]], dispersing the occupants all over the planet. A member of the indigenous [[human]] species, [[Rad White]], stumbled upon the crash site and inadvertently activated the Mini-Con homing device, where it was detected by both Autobot and Decepticon forces. Optimus Prime resolved to go to this planet Earth, believing that this might be their second chance to being back justice to their home. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 3}}

[[Image:DWArmada4 OptimusPrime bruteforcelecture.jpg|right|200px|thumb| Oh no they DIDN'T!]]
The Autobots led by Optimus Prime used the [[space bridge]] to travel to Earth, unfortunately appearing right in front of a [[Miss Ruby|group of human children]] on a field trip to the [[Allspark Power Generator Station]]. Optimus Prime quickly decided that stealth was of the utmost importance and that they should minimize contact with the local inhabitants, a policy that was questioned by [[Smokescreen (Armada)|Smokescreen]] and [[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]], who just wished to tear through the planet to find the Mini-Cons, as their own troubles were of greater concern. This brought on them an angry rebuke from Optimus who declared that they weren't about to endanger Earth or its inhabitants to serve Autobot interests, but he also understood their frustration, telling them to save their anger for the Decepticons. Meanwhile, the Decepticons had also arrived on Earth and were giving chase to Rad, [[Alexis]], [[Carlos Lopez|Carlos]] and their Mini-Con friends, [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]] and the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Street Action Team]]. As [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] and [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] caught up to the fugitives, Optimus Prime and Scavenger appeared and knocking them out of the sky. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 4}}

When Megatron arrived on the scene, Optimus Prime bided his time while Smokescreen got into position and distracted his enemy by trash talking, mocking that for all of Megatron's Mini-Con-enhanced power, he had continually failed to defeat the Autobots. Alexis thought that he was a "big red blabbermouth" while Carlos opined that it was like watching a wrestling match due to all the talking they were doing before fighting. Suddenly, Smokescreen pulverised the cliff Megatron was perched upon, burying the Decepticon leader in rubble. At first, Prime was able to beat on Megatron, but the Decepticon's Mini-Con advantage proved too much, and Megatron [[Powerlinx]]ed with all of his Mini-Cons, intending to obliterate all of Prime's circuits for his disrespect. Fortunately, [[Jolt (Armada)|Jolt]]'s team of Mini-Cons arrived, saving Rad and the others, then Powerlinking with the Autobots to force the Decepticons into retreat. The Mini-Cons requested an alliance with the Autobots, on the condition that they were equals in partnership. Optimus Prime agreed, stating the Autobots desperately needed the Mini-Cons' powers, but it was ultimately the choice of the diminutive robots to make. With the alliance formed, Optimus Prime ordered the Autobots to find suitable Earth vehicle modes and the construction of a local headquarters, for he had a feeling they were going to stay on this alien world for a long time. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 5}}

[[Image:DWArmada7 OptimusPrime StarSaber.jpg|left|350px|thumb|]]
Later, Optimus Prime sought out the kids at the [[Black Hills]] to tell them goodbye, as he felt they had been dragged into their war too deeply already. He wanted Sparkplug's support in the decision, but before the Mini-Con could fully voice his opinion, he received an emergency transmission from [[Sonar (Armada)|Sonar]] of the [[Air Defense Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Air Defense Mini-Con Team]], who were under attack by the Decepticons in [[Rapid City]], [[South Dakota]]. Sparkplug proposed a covert rescue operation, but Optimus Prime flatly refused, fearing the Autobot Mini-Cons could be captured by the Decepticons. Fed up with Prime telling them what they could and couldn't do, the Mini-Cons and the kids went on their own. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 6}} Meanwhile, Megatron had modified and forced the Air Defense Team to powerlink together to form the mighty [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]], and used it to attack the [[Autobase (Armada)|Autobase]] in [[Nebraska|Lincoln]]. During the ensuing battle, Optimus Prime implored for the Air Defense Team to resist Megatron's manipulations and free themselves, as the power came from the three of them, not the one weapon, a concept that Megatron found unfathomable, as all he cared about was controlling the power. Sparkplug and the others returned to make amends, powerlinking with the Autobots to give them the edge they needed. Now on equal footing, Optimus fought back, telling Megatron and the Air Defense Team that it was about ''respect'': respect for the power and for the individual. The Air Defense Team broke free of their bonds and attacked the Decepticon leader. After the Decepticons retreated, so too did the [[Land Military Mini-Con Team|Land Military Team]] and the Air Defense Team. Prime felt that because there was now a balance to the war, the non-aligned Mini-Cons were right to leave and not tip the balance for either side. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 7}}

[[Image:DWArmada10 OptimusPrime Illbeback.jpg|right|200px|thumb| Optimus Schwarzenegger.]]
Soon afterwards, a monolith crashed in Tranquility, [[Kansas]] and sent out a signal which summoned all Mini-Cons on Earth to converge at the monolith's location. [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] was not especially concerned considering the Autobot Mini-Cons could come and go as they pleased and that they might have just needed some time to cool off, but Optimus Prime was worried: after the situation with the Air Defense Team, he was unsure of what they might do next. While the Mini-Cons were in their trance-like state, the Decepticons arrived, intent on claiming all of Earth's Mini-Cons for themselves. Rad used Sparkplug's communications systems to call Optimus Prime for help, which soon arrived. Unfortunately, while the Autobots and Decepticons fought amongst themselves, the Mini-Cons (and Rad) entered the monolith and blasted off into space. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 8}} As the Autobots left for home, Optimus Prime explained to the kids the significance of the giant Mini-Con symbol that had been burned into the ground and that Rad had been taken to the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. He also told them the story about how the Mini-Cons had escaped Cybertron and eventually crashed their ship on the Moon, breaking it in half and sending the bow to Earth. Optimus' only plan was to wait for Megatron to make his move, and try to stop them, for they had no options for reaching the Moon that would not require specialised equipment or actions that would compromise their security on Cybertron. However, an opportunity provided itself when the majority of the Decepticon left for the Moon {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 9}}, allowing Hot Shot and Red Alert to erase any Decepticon sensor logs while Optimus Prime used the space bridge to travel to the Autobase on Cybertron. Unfortunately, [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] had his hands full and resented Optimus Prime not leading the Autobots on Cybertron. However, Optimus did manage to get his hands on an [[Autobot shuttle|Autobot Transport Gunship]] {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 10}}, which he used to travel to the Moon. Unbeknownst to Optimus, however, the selfish and cruel [[Destruction Mini-Con Team|Destruction Team]] leader [[Dualor]] had strapped Rad into one of the space mines protecting to Moon, and now Optimus was preparing to destroy the minefield, but he hesitated. While Sparkplug's Mini-Con friends and the [[Space Mini-Con Team|Space Team]] were working on rescuing Rad, Optimus Prime realised an itchy trigger finger would be disastrous. Optimus correctly deduced that [[Sky Blast]] meant no harm and allowed him to dock with the gunship whilst towing the dummy mine containing Rad. After blasting Cyclonus into pieces for attacking their ship, Optimus thanked Sky Blast for his help, and gave those back on the [[Mini-Con Fortress Base]] transportation to Earth promising them that he and his compatriots were in for a lot of changes in how the Autobots treated them. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 11}}

[[Image:DWArmada13_Autobots_Mini-Cons.jpg|thumb|left|350px|]]

Prime's word was soon tested when two crises occurred at the same time: Scavenger and Smokescreen had detected the Decepticons building some sort of rocket launch facility in Death Valley, [[California]], and a Mini-Con escape pod from the Moon had been detected in northern [[Alaska]]. At first, the Autobot leader preferred to deal with the Decepticon situation, until Sparkplug convinced him that if he didn't assist the Mini-Cons, the ones in the Autobase would be walking out. With political concerns in mind, Optimus Prime offered the full resources of the Autobots in mounting a rescue mission, which seemed to satisfy the fractious Mini-Cons. {{storylink|Fire & Ice}} Unfortunately, additional problems presented themselves when [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]], overjuiced on the full power of the Destruction Team, began attacking any and all targets while Megatron was blasting them with his [[Solar Scalpel]], a superweapon deployed from the rocket in Death Valley. With little choice, Optimus asked Sparkplug to powerlink with him at maximum power, enabling the Autobot to defeat Cyclonus. With the crisis averted and the Mini-Cons rescued, a disappointed Optimus asked Sparkplug why he had been holding back on him, as he thought they trusted one another. As Sparkplug told him the legend of the Mini-Cons having the power to save the universe or destroy it, Optimus was suddenly taken to Cybertron, where he witnessed its destruction...{{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 13}}

[[Image:WorldsCollide4_JetOptimus.jpg|thumb|250px|—a [[Furmanism|FURMANISM]]!]]

While the Autobots tried to figure out what had happened to him, Optimus wandered across the blasted ruins of Cybertron, he discovered [[Spinister (G1)|a lone survivor]], who had been reduced to a gibbering wreck. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 1 of 4}} Optimus Prime refused to believe the confused, fragmented story the survivor told: Prince of Nothingness came, the heavens opened up, and their final judgment was pronounced. All those who fought perished and everything was destroyed. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 2 of 4}} As [[Unicron]], the devourer of worlds closed in on Cybertron, Optimus begged the survivor to tell him of any way to fight back against the monster. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 3 of 4}} Sadly, the survivor was beyond help, allowing himself to be sucked into the oblivion of Unicron's maw, despite Optimus' pleas for him to resist. Unicron noticed the lone Cybertronian and took the form of the survivor, proclaiming that like this reality's [[Optimus Prime (Worlds Collide)|Optimus Prime]], the Autobot would fall and his universe would be consumed - the gateway was being prepared by his heralds. Suddenly, Jetfire appeared, having jumped through a space bridge portal after destroying the Decepticon space bridge nexus that Unicron's heralds were using to open up space for their master to enter that reality. As this fallen Cybertron crumbled, Sparkplug, [[Comettor]] and the mysterious Mini-Con [[Over-Run (Armada)|Over-Run]] appeared, having crossed realities to find the Autobot leader. Over-Run handed Optimus the [[Mini-Con Matrix]], the essence of this doomed Cybertron's Mini-Cons, giving the two Autobots the power to transform and combine into Jet Optimus. With one mighty blast, Jet Optimus delivered a broadside to Unicron, giving them enough time to escape back to their reality. {{Storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4}}

With the fate of their universe at stake, Optimus called on the Mini-Cons scattered on Earth to join the Autobots and Decepticons in fighting Unicron. As Cybertron's general, Optimus stood as the bulwark against the Chaos Bringer's onslaught, leading their combined forces until the Mini-Cons united their power to delivery an almighty blast at Unicron, sending him back into the unknown. Though victorious, Optimus Prime considered that with such pure evil, [[Furmanism|it may never be over]], and they must be eternally vigilant. {{Storylink|The End}}
{{-}}

====''Energon''====
[[Image:Optimusprime ut armada px.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Optimus Prime (Powerlinx) during the years between the Unicron Battles and Energon. He thinks if he's not red and blue, nobody will recognize him.]]
Ten years after the defeat of Unicron, Over-Run showed Prime how to commune with Cybertron itself. Doing so reformatted the Autobot leader into a body capable of [[Powerlinx|Powerlinking]] with a team of [[Prime Force|'drone' vehicles]], and granted him (and the other Autobots) the ability to combine with each other.

Upon returning to Earth, he decided that the Autobots would no longer hide from the inhabitants, but work with them openly. This decision led, among other things, to the Autobots' induction into the UN.

When last seen ''(before the bankruptcy of [[Dreamwave Productions]])'', he was attempting to escape from within the remains of [[Unicron]], after Megatron's trapped spark used him to regain his freedom.

{{charstubfiction}}
{{-}}

===Cartoon continuity===
====''Armada''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Tōru Ōkawa]] (Japanese), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Pierre-Peters Arnold]] (German), [[Niclas Ekholm]] (Swedish) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

{{charstubfiction}}

[[Image:Pre-arm-scavenger.JPG|left|180px|thumb|"Maybe we shouldn't have fired lasers at the mirrors."]]
[[MYA|Millions of years ago]], a young Optimus Prime fought with a great Decepticon warrior known as [[Scavenger (Armada)|Scavenger]]. So frequent were their clashes, and so familiar were they to each other, the pair eventually became friends, and Scavenger signed up with the Autobots. Seeing great potential in the young Autobot leader, Scavenger taught Optimus Prime how to fight in hand-to-hand combat. Later, veteran Autobot [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] trained Optimus in [[metallikato]] shortly before leaving [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] with [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]]. Optimus later notes that their training made him the warrior and soldier he is today. {{storylink|Trust (Armada)|Trust}}

Many years later, it was a more mature Optimus Prime that led a small Autobot unit to [[Earth]] after the activation of the [[Mini-Con]] homing beacon. This beacon signaled to all the Transformers on Cybertron that the much-coveted Mini-Cons had survived their million years-long disappearance. After warping to Earth, Optimus saved [[Rad White|three]] [[Carlos Lopez|human]] [[Alexis|children]] from the [[Decepticon]] leader, [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], who arrived on the alien world first.

[[Image:FirstEncounter_Prime.jpg|right|180px|thumb|He's part Optimus Prime, part [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], part [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] and all Optimus Prime.]]
Clashing with his arch enemy, Optimus Prime bought the children and their Mini-Con [[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]] time to escape while around them, other Transformers warped into the battlefield. Later, after the Decepticons had reformatted themselves into suitable new vehicle modes, Optimus Prime saved the children again, joined by his two subordinates [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] and [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]]. {{storylink|First Encounter}}

Befriending these children, he introduced his crew of Autobots to them. The children aided Prime as he led his crew around the world, searching for the long-lost Mini-Con Transformers, before the Decepticon forces could take them and use them for their own evil deeds.

[[Image:Arm ep 4 supermode prime max burst.jpg|left|180px|thumb|You feel lucky, punk?]]
Soon afterward, both the Autobots and Decepticons detected a Mini-Con signal located in the [[Grand Canyon]]. With the help of the kids, Optimus Prime managed to pinpoint the location of the Mini-Con panel before he was confronted by [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], powerlinked to [[Leader-1 (Armada)|Leader-1]]. Outgunned, Optimus Prime was saved when Starscream arrogantly underestimated the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Street Action Team's]] combined form of [[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]]. This distraction gave Optimus the opportunity to activate the Mini-Con panel, revealing that its occupant was [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]], Optimus Prime's old Mini-Con partner and friend. Together they Powerlinked, activating Optimus' powerful Maximum Blast which sent the Decepticons into retreat. {{storylink|Comrade}}

Through the treachery of [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]] and [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]], the Decepticons managed to secure all three of the [[Star Saber (Armada)|legendary]] [[Skyboom (Armada)|Mini-Con]] [[Requiem Blaster|weapons]] that form the [[Hydra Cannon]], the most powerful weapon in the universe. Mounting their new doomsday device aboard a starship, Megatron decided to wipe out the Autobot base on Earth, regardless of the massive collateral damage to the planet itself. Optimus Prime and Jetfire launched a pre-emptive strike against the warship in the hopes of disabling the weapon and rescuing the Mini-Cons. However, they were outnumbered, forcing a desperate Optimus to throw himself into the path of the cannon and use the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to save Earth, but at the cost of his life. {{storylink|Crisis}}

Under the leadership of Hot Shot, the other Autobots gave chase to the Decepticons aboard the [[Axalon (Armada)|Axalon]]. During a confrontation with their enemies, the Mini-Cons reached out to each other and resurrected Optimus from within the Matrix. There was little time to rejoice, as the Autobots pursued the Decepticons on their way back to Cybertron. {{storylink|Miracle}}

[[Image:Armada 52 - Prime with tread piece.jpg|left|250px|thumb|My God, it's full of stars...]]
After Unicron's apparent defeat, both Optimus Prime and Galvatron succumbed to their base natures and had one last battle within the Chaos Bringer. Fighting each other to a standstill, both were surprised when Unicron suddenly came back to life, feeding off their hate for each other. Galvatron was drawn toward Unicron's maw, with Prime holding onto his tank treads, telling him to hold on. His nemesis then made the decision to sacrifice his life, giving Prime a final victory, so that Unicron might be destroyed and their race would survive.

In the aftermath, Optimus Prime reflected that he didn't deserve the [[Matrix of Leadership]] and left both the Autobots and Cybertron for places unknown. {{storylink|Mortal Combat}}

{{-}}

====''Energon''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Katsuyuki Konishi]] (Japanese), [[Niclas Ekholm]] (Swedish) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

[[Image:EnergonOptimusForms.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Me, myself, and I... and ''me'']]
8,000 eons ago, Optimus Prime stayed on Cybertron to continue its defense, even as Rodimus led a group of Transformers away from the planet, into space, in search of a new home. {{storylink|The Legend of Rodimus}}

A few years after the defeat of Unicron, Optimus Prime returned from exile to a newly-unified Cybertron where Autobots and Decepticons lived side-by-side in peace. Reassuming leadership of the Autobots, Optimus Prime established a dialogue with the Earth governments with the help of his human friends. Earth sent a delegation to Cybertron, consisting of the three kids and [[Brian Jones (Energon)|Dr. Brian Jones]], the foremost expert in the newly discovered ore [[Energon (Energon)|energon]] that both worlds coveted.

Jones brought along his young son, [[Kicker Jones|Chad]] (also known as 'Kicker'), who was frightened by the tall, menacing robots. When the boy ran away to a ruined and abandoned part of Cybertron, Optimus Prime gave chase, warning Kicker that the area was strictly off limits. The boy accidentally fell and found his way into a massive darkened chamber where an energy being known as [[Primus]] saved him. Optimus Prime found his way into the chamber just as Primus evolved the human child. Sometime after this, Primus (now known as the creator-god of the Transformers), gave Optimus the [[Spark of Combination]], allowing Optimus to grant combining powers to other Autobots. Prime could also now combine with a [[Prime Force|squad of four drone vehicles]], which rode around with him in his trailer when not in use.

Almost a decade later, the energon mining facilities in Sol's asteroid belt, as well as their base on [[Mars (planet)|Mars]], were attacked by a mysterious force of beast-like Transformers. Primus warned Optimus that the enemy was after the energon, causing Optimus to assemble a unit so he could personally assess the situation. Finding no life on Mars, his unit then moved to Earth, where he saved Kicker and Ocean City from an attack by the same creatures. {{storylink|Cybertron City (episode)|Cybertron City}}

Prime agreed to the evacuation of Ocean City, then led a counterattack against the Terrorcons at [[Lunar City]]. He assigned the headstrong Kicker to be partners with the rookie Ironhide, suspecting that the experience would be difficult but beneficial for both of them. {{storylink|Energon Stars}} Prime prepared his troops to defend Earth's Cybertron Cities from further attack. {{storylink|Scorpinok}} Eventually the Terrorcons' attacks forced him to make a difficult call, abandoning the survivors at [[Mars City]] in favor of remaining to defend Ocean City. In the battle that followed, the sight of Megatron's sword caused Prime to wonder if his old nemesis might still be alive. At the same time, the Decepticon troops under his command began abandoning the cause one by one. {{storylink|Megatron's Sword}}

Optimus continued to lead his team against Terrorcon attacks, but soon found himself face-to-face with his oldest and greatest foe. {{storylink|Megatron Resurrected}} In a subsequent battle at Ocean City, the two threw down with all their power. Armed with a copy of Megatron's sword, Optimus was able to defeat him and force the Decepticons to retreat. {{storylink|Megatron Raid}}

Optimus soon found himself stalked by the ghostly Starscream, who secretly followed him around Ocean City, hoping for a chance to assassinate him. Prime lured Starscream to the Moon, where they could battle without interference or collateral damage. Starscream revealed his plans to revive Unicron, causing Prime no small measure of consternation. Though the teleporting Starscream maintained the advantage, Optimus was able to generate "[[Energon Blaster|Hot Shot's blaster]]" during a subsequent Decepticon attack, using it to drive off the attackers. {{storylink|Starscream the Mysterious Mercenary}}

Prime then led a team into the asteroid belt, where they destroyed an asteroid that looked nothing like Unicron, because it looked like Unicron. {{storylink|Battle of the Asteroid Belt}}

Prime continued to lead Earth's defense until Dr. Jones's [[energon tower (building)|energon tower]] could be completed, ensuring the planet's safety. {{storylink|Energon Tower (episode)|Energon Tower}} This role forced him into a difficult decision, detonating the energon stores of [[Jungle City]] in the midst of an overwhelming attack. Although the explosion repulsed the attacking Decepticons, it also obliterated some of Earth's most ancient ruins and an entire Cybertron city. {{storylink|Crisis in Jungle City}}

Prime next clashed with Megatron at [[Lunar City]], but once again a newly-arrived Energon Tower cut the battle short.
{{storylink|Kicker Beware!}} He then led a space-based defense against several giant "comets" that Megatron had created to destroy Earth, which was ultimately saved by the final completion of the energon grid. {{storylink|Energon Grid}}

With Earth secure, Optimus decided to lead his team into space, to pursue and destroy Unicron before Megatron could revive the planet-eater. {{storylink|Rodimus: Friend or Foe?}} As the Autobots prepared to leave Earth's [[solar system]] aboard the ''[[Miranda II]]'', the Decepticons attacked once more; struggling with Megatron, Optimus narrowly avoided getting caught by the ship's energon grid. Demolishor wasn't so lucky. {{storylink|Go for Unicron!}}

Optimus had his team follow Kicker's energon-finding instincts, leading them to a misadventure on a frozen planet. {{storylink|The Return of Demolishor}} Soon after, Optimus was confronted by Rodimus—who shocked him with the proposal that Unicron must not be destroyed, but rather restored! Optimus wasn't convinced, and Rodimus went his own way. {{storylink|A Tale of Two Heros}} Optimus soon was forced to carry out his plan to lure Unicron into the space bridge and to Cybertron, where Rad assaulted Unicron with the planet's energon grid, massively damaging him. {{storylink|Battle Stations}}

With Unicron repulsed, Optimus led a team to Cybertron's surface, where the Decepticons were in rebellion. {{storylink|Alpha Q: Identity}} They soon learned that the Decepticon criminal [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] had escaped, and pursued him to the very chamber of Primus. Shockblast escaped, however, and Optimus soon had other concerns: Kicker was returning to Cybertron, with the head of Unicron! {{storylink|Shockblast: Rampage}}

At Kicker's insistence, Optimus met with the alien Alpha Q and heard his story. Moved, he agreed to help Alpha Q revive his planets, but the defense of Cybertron remained his top priority. When Unicron began lashing out at his captors, it was Optimus who recognized the actions as blind survival instinct. {{storylink|Survival Instincts}}

Prime returned to Cybertron's surface to lead the planet's defense as Megatron attacked again. He was present to witness Wing Dagger's death at the hands of Shockblast. {{storylink|Each One Fights...}} He subsequently led his team in a direct counter-attack against Unicron, seeking to infiltrate it and defeat Megatron inside. {{storylink|Unicron Unleashed}} Prime was fully prepared to face down his enemy in a one-on-one showdown, but instead was ambushed by a vengeful Shockblast and left damaged. Alone and facing two Decepticons, he was revived and saved by the arrival of an energon infusion from Earth. {{storylink|Open Fire!}}

Wing Dagger, now rebuilt as [[Wing Saber]], arrived and revealed that he and Optimus could combine, greatly enhancing their power. Prime rallied his troops to complete their mission of destroying Megatron. Before it could happen, however, Megatron triggered a catastrophic energon reaction, ripping [[Rift (Energon)|a hole in the fabric of space]] and fleeing into it. Optimus gamely led a team in pursuit of him. {{storylink|Ripped Up Space}}

{{charstubfiction}}

{{storylink|Team Optimus Prime}}
{{storylink|Protection}}
{{storylink|Imprisoned Inferno}}
{{storylink|Jungle Planet (episode)|Jungle Planet}}
{{storylink|Bulkhead (episode)|Bulkhead}}
{{storylink|Farewell Inferno}}
{{storylink|Crash Course}}
{{storylink|Omega Supreme (episode)|Omega Supreme}}
{{storylink|A Heroic Battle}}
{{storylink|The Power}}
{{storylink|Optimus Supreme}}
{{storylink|Unicron Perishes}}
{{storylink|Ambition}}
{{storylink|Wishes}}
{{storylink|Galvatron!}}
{{storylink|Break Through}}
{{storylink|Distribution}}
{{storylink|The Omega Train}}
{{storylink|Decepticon Army}}
{{storylink|Ironhide Team}}
{{storylink|Formidable}}
{{storylink|Galvatron Terror}}
{{storylink|Destructive Power}}
{{storylink|Spark (episode)|Spark}}
{{storylink|The Sun}}

====''Cybertron''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Taitem Kusunoki]] (Japanese), [[Eberhardt Haar]] (German) [[Dariusz Odija]] (Polish)

[[Image:CybertronPrime finalbattlepose.jpg|left|180px|thumb|"Weapons Primed..."]]
Primus' plan to trap Unicron inside an energon sun failed, and this star collapsed into a [[Unicron Singularity|massive black hole]]. Optimus Prime faced the greatest test in his existence when his home planet was threatened with destruction, but realised there was no choice but to evacuate the population to Earth. As they made plans to leave, a mysterious time-travelling Transformer named [[Vector Prime]] appeared, advising Optimus to search for the [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, the only means of restoring Primus' spark, and the only way they can save Cybertron and the rest of the universe from oblivion. {{storylink|Fallen (episode)|Fallen}}

Arriving on Earth, Optimus Prime was forced to break his own strict orders to hide from the human population when he rescued the injured [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] and three human children from [[Thundercracker (Armada)|Thundercracker]]. Befriending the children, named [[Coby Hansen|Coby]], [[Bud Hansen|Bud]] and [[Lori]], he relied on them to educate the Autobots about their new home and how to blend into the environment as Robots in Disguise. {{storylink|Inferno (episode)|Inferno}} {{storylink|Hidden}}

Soon afterward, the children's hometown of Boulder, Colorado was threatened. The newest tunnels in a recently-dug gold mine had destabilized a mountain, making its collapse imminent. This alone would only have damaged the mountain's immediate area, but matters were complicated when Autobot scans revealed the presence of an underground reservoir that would be forced out by the collapse, causing flooding. Coby had the idea of using Optimus Prime's pumping equipment to drain the reservoir, allowing [[Scattorshot (Cybertron)|Scattorshot]] to shatter the mountain with his largest missiles and collapse it safely, averting disaster. {{storylink|Collapse}}

{{charstubfiction}}

===Panini ''Armada'' comics===
In the early stages of the war, Optimus Prime was shocked to learn of a full-scale Decepticon assault on the Autobot Command HQ. As he organized the defenses, he was contacted by the [[Mini-Con]] [[Sparkplug (Armada)|Sparkplug]], who warned him that [[Dualor]] had planted explosives around the base in order to lure [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] in and destroy him. Prime subsequently ordered for the evacuation of the base before Dualor blew it up. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 9|Counter-Strike!}} He and his troops were still fighting the Decepticons a few million years later, but it was a losing battle. Even if most of the Mini-Cons had left Cybertron, the Decepticons still had a few of them, and the Autobots were outclassed. Despite this, Optimus Prime knew the Mini-Cons leaving had been a good thing, and hoped that he would never find out where they went. However, his hope did him no good, as the Mini-Cons were soon found on [[Earth]], and he had to travel there to save them from Megatron. {{storylink|First Encounter!}}

Having gone to Earth alone to scout ahead without any backup, Optimus Prime was quickly defeated by the Mini-Con augmented Megatron. Thankfully, a few of the free Mini-Cons and the [[human]] [[Rad White]] distracted Megatron from finishing Prime off, giving him time to recover and summon [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] and [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] through a [[space bridge]]. As the free Mini-Cons decided to aid the Autobots, Sparkplug power-linked with Optimus Prime and granted him the power needed to punch Megatron in the face. After the Decepticons retreated, Prime thanked the Mini-Cons and Rad for their help. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 2|Friends and Foes!}} He soon realized that Rad and his [[Carlos Lopez|two]] [[Alexis|friends]] weren't very large contributors to their war effort, as they spent most of the time playing around. Reminding them that Megatron was a deadly threat, he sent them to recover the [[locator log]] from the Mini-Cons' crashed ship whilst he and the Autobots stood guard. They log ended up being destroyed due to interference from [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]], but Optimus Prime figured that maybe it was for the best. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 3|Deep Trouble!}}

Prime decided that the best way to keep their Mini-Con allies out of the Decepticons' hands was to send them back to Cybertron, despite complaints from Sparkplug and the humans. When the process was interrupted by a Decepticon attack, the Mini-Cons refused to leave the Autobots bhind and and power-linked with them again. While the Decepticons were driven off, they still blew up the Autobots' space bridge, stranding them on Earth. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 4|No Way Back!}} Some time later, Optimus Prime and his troops saved the [[Air Defense Mini-Con Team (Armada)|Air Defense Team]] from geting captured by [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]]. In the aftermath, the Mini-Cons shot down Prime's offer to join the Autobots, but he still assured them he would help them whenever they needed him. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 5|Devices and Desires!}} Next, Optimus Prime learned from [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Laserbeak]] that the Decepticons had gone to search for Mini-Cons on the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. With his own space bridge still in pieces, he had no choice but to contact [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] on Cybertron for aid. While Jetfire sent troops to deal with the Decepticons, Prime watched as Sparkplug sent a probe to the Moon to activate any Mini-Cons there. After the probe was successful, Optimus Prime manifested as a hologram on the Moon's surface and taunted Megatron that he was too late. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 6|Between Two Worlds!}}

When Starscream got his hands on the [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]] and failed to keep its power in check, Optimus Prime appeared out of nowhere to stop the sword from going wild and ripping the world apart. He grabbed the weapon from Starscream's hands and urged the Air Defense Team to separate, which they did. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 7|The Two-Edged Blade}} The threat of the Moon soon came up again, as the Decepticons prepared to fire missiles at the Autobots' base from their new lunar base. While the Autobot space bridge was still down, Optimus Prime had a plan and ordered Hot Shot to hurry and repair it. While the Mini-Cons bought them some time by pretending to surrender, the Autobots fixed their space bridge and linked it to the Decepticons' one on the moon. And so, when the Decepticons eventually did fire their missiles, the Autobots simply used the space bridge to warp them straight back into the enemy base. {{storylink|Panini Armada issue 8|Earthshaker!}}

===''Transformers Legends'' anthology===
Early in the war, Optimus confronted Megatron in [[Yellowstone National Park]], warning the Decepticon leader that the area they were in was geologically unstable and warfare could aggravate things catastrophically. Megatron ignored him and almost defeated Prime, until the intervention of [[Riptide]], [[QuickFire]] and [[Jake Williams]]. The unlikely team managed to see Megatron off, albeit with the loss of Williams's [[Starheart|beloved '57 Ford pickup]] into a mud pit. Optimus promised to retrieve and restore the truck, and suggested that Riptide and QuickFire return to hiding, to prevent the Decepticons from capturing them. {{storylink|Lonesome Diesel}}

Following his destruction by the Hydra Cannon, Optimus Prime found himself in [[Maccadam's Old Oil House]] on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], where he encountered an [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] from [[Generation 1 continuity family|another universe]], and two versions of [[Optimus Primal]] from that same universe. After establishing the possibility that alternate universe existed, the other three were able to help Optimus Prime overcome some of his doubts over his leadership abilities. That done, Optimus returned to life in time to save [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] from [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Prime Spark}}

===''Galaxy Force'' manga===
{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Touchdown! Optimus Prime}} {{storylink|The Devil's Dogfight! Coby's Courage}} {{storylink|Deep Sea Discovery! Vector Prime}} {{storylink|The Temple of Hell! Overhaul}}

==Games==
===Transformers Armada: The Energon Within===
As Optimus and Hot Shot prepare to escort a truckload of energon away from a mine, the Decepticons launch a full scale assault. Their objective is to steal 100 energon cubes. Though they eventually succeed, the cost is high and the mine remains in Autobot hands.

As Optimus and Hot Shot prepare to escort a truckload of energon away from a mine, the Decepticons launch a full scale assault. Their objective is to steal 100 energon cubes. Before they can succeed, Hot Shot inadvertently blows up the mine. {{storylink|Transformers Armada: The Energon Within}}

===''Transformers''===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English)

Optimus Prime was dueling with Megatron atop a very high building just before Megatron received the Mini-Con beacon. Following his nemesis to prevent him from using the Mini-Cons for evil, Prime arrived on a new planet: Earth.

Arriving in the Amazon, he familiarized himself with the territory before going and recovering the first Mini-Con Panel. (Which Mini-Con it is varies with the game difficulty, with [[Lock-On]] being released on the first two difficulty levels). He then traversed a [[Scale|disproportionate]] bridge, had a brawl inside a temple, and scaled a pathway up a cliff face before arriving at a run-down temple and encountering Cyclonus. Cyclonus (sporting a fanciful, comic British accent) ordered a [[Heavy Unit]] to attack him, declaring Earth as "Decepticon property". Prime took care of the Heavy Unit, and Hot Shot and Red Alert joined him. Soon they discovered their old Mini-Con partners. (Sparkplug remains with Optimus for the remainder of the game, activating a rather pointless "Powerlinx" Max Payne-esque bullet time mode which drains Prime's health.)

{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Transformers (PS2)}}

==Toys==
{{main|Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys}}

{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:MonsterConvoy.jpg|right|100px|thumb|Arise, Bigfootimus Prime.]]
* According to the [[Transformers (PS2)|''Armada'' Playstation 2 game]] instruction booklet, Optimus Prime's ''Armada'' body has the following statistics:

:Mass: 18,960 lbs
:Robot height: 22' 11"
:Robot top speed: 31 mph
:Vehicle height: 8' 3"
:Vehicle top speed: 125 mph
:Vehicle power: 700 hp @ 2500 rpm

* One of the earliest ''Armada'' Optimus Prime concepts depicts him as being an ENORMOUSLY HUGE MONSTER TRUCK. Makes one wonder about the origins of the "Monster Convoy" inscription on Super Base Optimus Prime's tires.

* For at least part of the ''Energon'' animated series, the CGI model for Optimus Prime's handgun resembled an oversized six-shooter rather than the actual toy's chamber-less handgun for unknown reasons.

* ''Cybertron'' Optimus Prime has some design similarities to GaoGaiGar from ''[[wikipedia:The_King_of_Braves_GaoGaiGar|The King of Braves GaoGaiGar]]'', such as the chin protrusion and cheekguards. In addition, his [[Super Mode]] resembles ChoRyuJin from the same series (having the same chest and cannons), and his combination with [[Leobreaker]] recalls GaoGaiGar's combination with Goldymarg. His combination with Wing Saber also invokes the image of Galeon's head on GaoGaiGar's chest. This would not be the [[Optimus_Prime_(RID)|first such GaoGaiGar reference]] Transformers would see... [[Safeguard_(Animated)|or the last]].
* Said Super Mode also evokes [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Powermaster Optimus Prime]].
*''Cybertron'' Prime also sported some different colors in his preliminary design, which accidentally found its way into a few shots in the [[Fallen_(episode)|first episode]].

== Footnotes ==
<references />

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2002/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm Optimus Prime at TFU.info]
* [http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d75/binalternator/unreleased/optimus_prime_mini_optimus_prime/ Energon Optimus Prime redeco with Smallest Transformers Optimus Prime gallery]

[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Attacktix]]
[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Built to Rule]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:Costco exclusives]]
[[Category:Cybertron characters]]
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[[Category:Transformers with three modes]]

Dreamwave Productions

2010-07-03T17:09:28Z

173.71.105.23: /* Splitting from Image and getting the Transformers license */

[[Image:Dreamwave.jpg|right|thumb|250px|"We're not saying you should buy Dreamwave comics, only that you'll regret it."]]

'''Dreamwave Productions''' was a fairly unknown independent comic book publisher when it obtained the ''Transformers'' license in 2001. For a time, there was gigantic buzz surrounding Dreamwave's relaunch of the Generation 1 title, even pushing it past Marvel and DC's top titles. Many comic book fans had been away from Transformers for a long time and were overjoyed to see highly detailed manga-style art driving a childhood favorite.

Dreamwave published a good deal of ''Transformers'' books, including many varied miniseries, before capitulating to the notoriously fickle comic-buying public. Towards the end of 2004 delays started getting more and more frequent. This was followed by rumors of writers and artists leaving because they weren't being paid, which were then confirmed. In early January 2005, Dreamwave declared bankruptcy, and there were no Transformers comics to be had for more than half of 2005.

{{quote|TO ME DREAMWAVE WAS MORE THAN JUST A WORD. IT'S MEANING TO ME FULLFILLS ALL OF WHAT I BELIEVE IN. SUCCESS, LOVE, FRIENDSHIP, HOPES ANS WISHES. WHEN ALL IS BAD HUMANS EXCLUDE THEMSELVES FROM REALITY ONLY TO FIND THEMSELVES IN THE REALM OF DREAMS. BECAUSE HERE IN OUR DREAMS WE FIND THE FREEDOM FROM THE SHACKLES THAT THIS SOCIETY HAS LOCKED US IN REALITY.|[[Pat Lee]] [http://www.angelfire.com/pa/infrarred/infrarred4.html]}}

==History==
===The beginnings===
Dreamwave Productions was originally launched by brothers [[Pat Lee|Pat]] and [[Roger Lee]] as a studio within [[Wikipedia:Image Comics|Image Comics]] in 1996, at the height of the Image boom.

In 1998, Dreamwave would start to publish various <strike>blatantly plagiarized</strike> originally created titles such as ''[[wikipedia:Ghost in the Shell|Darkminds]]'' and ''[[wikipedia:Record of Lodoss War|Warlands]]'', as well as accepting work-for-hire assignments for other publishers such as the four-issue limited series ''Wolverine/Punisher: Revelation'' for Marvel. Other titles such as ''Shidima'', ''Fate of the Blade'' or ''Arkanium'' would follow. Furthermore, Dreamwave also collaborated with [[wikipedia:VIBE (magazine)|VIBE]] and [[wikipedia:Wizard (magazine)|Wizard: The Comics Magazine]] on various projects, developed an advertising campaign for the [[wikipedia:Dr. Martens|Dr. Martens]] shoe label and created the production designs for the music video to [[wikipedia:Janet Jackson|Janet Jackson's]] song "Doesn't Really Matter".

Initially, the "hook" for Dreamwave's financial success was the drawing style of its president, Pat Lee, which many readers viewed as "manga-like" (although readers of actual Japanese mangas had a different opinion on this matter).

===Big 80s===
[[Image:Big80sWizard.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Oh boy, were we naïve.]]
In October of 2000, issue #111 of ''Wizard: The Comics Magazine'' ran a feature named "Big 80s", featuring various popular properties of the 1980s in new interpretations by modern artists, such as ''Thundercats'' drawn by [[Jim Cheung]], ''Masters of the Universe'' drawn by Ed McGunness, ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' drawn by J. Scott Campbell, and ''Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles'' drawn by Joe Madureira. Dreamwave submitted their own take on the ''Transformers'', one of Pat's personal favorites from his childhood days, with Pat Lee himself and Alvin Lee handling the art. ''Wizard'', making suggestions for a modern ''Transformers'' comic, named Mark Millar as their number one choice for the writer of the book, with Pat Lee (aka "Mr. Mecha") on art duties.

Needless to say, the modern-style "manga"-like ''Transformers'' artwork caused an uproar in the established fandom as well as among regular comic fans who remembered ''Transformers'' from their childhoods. Seven months later, Pat got another chance of drawing Transformers characters in a feature named "How to draw Mecha" for issue #118 of ''Wizard''.

===Splitting from Image and getting the Transformers license===
[[Image:WIZautobots.jpg|left|100px|thumb|How to draw a mess of lines that look like Transformers once the colorist has salvaged it.]]
Still in 2000, a group of Dreamwave employees (including Alvin Lee, who had worked with Pat on the ''Wizard'' piece) departed from their company to form their own business, UDON Studios.

A year later, [[Hasbro]] was offering the license for new Transformers comics, which had effectively remained unused since [[Marvel Comics|Marvel's]] ''[[Generation 2 (Marvel Comics)|Generation 2]] '' [[A Rage in Heaven!|issue 12]] in 1994. Several companies, including Marvel (with UDON being supposed to handle the art), were interested, but all of them used the piece of artwork Dreamwave had done for ''Wizard''. Dreamwave at one point intended to cooperate with Top Cow, but Top Cow rejected the offer. Ultimately, Dreamwave decided to get the license themselves instead of going through another company, claiming that Pat Lee would only handle the art if Dreamwave got the license. Marvel ultimately backed out because of the license fee Hasbro demanded.<ref name ="litgtfspec">[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14153 Lying in the Gutters ''Transformers'' Special], July 2002</ref>

Dreamwave officially acquired the ''Transformers'' license in December of 2001<ref>[http://tformers.com/New-Transformers-Comic/130/news.html TFormers confirms that Dreamwave acquired the Transformers comic license]</ref>, although Hasbro would ultimately never get the license fee in full. To commemorate the new flagship title, Dreamwave officially cut all ties with Image and became an independent publisher on their own.
{{-}}

===Success of the Transformers titles===
Dreamwave's launch title, ''[[Prime Directive|Transformers: Generation 1 vol. 1]]'', written by [[Chris Sarracini]] and drawn by Pat Lee, became an instant hit, dominating Diamond's sales charts for months. Back then, rumors were circulating that Dreamwave had manipulated the market through a special deal with Diamond to ensure their success, or that Hasbro had set up an account to order large numbers of the ''Transformers'' comics. in fact however, Hasbro had apparently ordered less than 200 copies per issue, and primarily because they were not guaranteed free copies from their contract with Dreamwave.<ref name ="litgtfspec"/> Later that year, other companies also reported high sales of "nostalgia" titles, thus further challenging those rumors.<ref name="litgnostal">[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14245 Lying in the Gutters], October 2002.</ref>

Dreamwave would soon expand their range of Transformers comics to include an ongoing ''Transformers: Armada'' series (which later evolved into ''Transformers: Energon'' to accompany the respective toylines), initially also written by Sarricini. Although the [[War and Peace|second ''Generation 1'' volume]] was originally supposed to be written by Sarracini again, he was replaced by new writer [[James McDonough]] (who originally worked under the alias "Brad Mick"), thereby ultimately writing an entirely different story than what was originally intended<ref>[http://tformers.com/article.php?sid=1051 TFormers citing a ''Wizard Edge'' article that hints at the originally proposed plot for Dreamwave's Transformers: Generation 1 vol. 2]</ref>. With [[Original Sin|issue #5]] of the [[Generation 1 (Dreamwave comic)|third ''Generation 1'' volume]] (now an ongoing title), McDonough was joined by his longtime friend [[Adam Patyk]], now forming a writing duo, eventually shifting out his "Brad Mick" alias.

Furthermore, Dreamwave hired fan-favorite [[Simon Furman]] to pen various ''Transformers: The War Within'' mini-series, the first official Transformers fiction ever to be not directly based on an existing toyline. Furman would be joined by artist [[Don Figueroa]], whom Dreamwave had hired directly out of the fandom. More fan artists such as [[Guido Guidi]] and [[Joe Ng]] would soon follow Don into the professional comic book world. Meanwhile, Furman would later also take over the ''Armada'' title as a writer.

===Trouble on the horizon===
The first problems arose in late 2002, when it turned out that Dreamwave had only acquired the license for distributing ''Transformers'' titles in the USA, which resulted in a temporary hold in the international distribution until the matter was settled.<ref>[http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=580 Newsarama reporting on problems resulting from Dreamwave's lack of a license for an international release of their ''Transformers'' titles]</ref> However, Dreamwave were far from being the only company suffering from that problem, as [[Devil's Due]] (then part of Image Comics) were also no longer allowed to distribute their ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' comic abroad, and other companies encountered similar problems.<ref name="litglicen">[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14266 Lying in the Gutters], November 2002.</ref> The problem was eventually resolved, and comics were allowed to be distributed internationally again.

Following the success of their ''Transformers'' titles, Dreamwave put their own titles ''Warlands'' and ''Darkminds'' on hold, instead focussing on other licensed books such as ''[[wikipedia:Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles|Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles]]'', numerous [[wikipedia:Capcom|Capcom]] franchises such as ''[[wikipedia:MegaMan|MegaMan]]'', and ''[[wikipedia:Duel Masters|Duel Masters]]'' (a [[Hasbro]]-backed Japanese import card game/toyline). None of those titles would last particularly long, however, and some (mainly numerous Capcom titles) never even got the first issue out. This was also when rumors of creators not getting paid first came up.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=1760 Lying in the Gutters reporting on early rumors of Dreamwave artists not getting paid]</ref> Rumors about a rigid "house style" committing other artists to draw in a style close to company president Pat Lee started to circulate as well, most evident in the second ''War Within'' miniseries, where the original pencils by artist [[Andrew Wildman]] were drastically reworked by the inker, with rather disappointing results.

In mid-2004, Dreamwave announced the "addition" of new creators<ref>[http://www.brokenfrontier.com/headlines/p/detail/dreamwave-adds-transformers-creators The infamous "Dreamwave adds Transformers' creators" press release]</ref>, failing to mention that this also meant the departure of Adam Patyk and James McDonough from the company. Although Dreamwave tried to contain this delicate bit of information by asking websites to consider any public statements by the two regarding their current situation with Dreamwave as "private" and thus delete them<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2033 Lying in the Gutters reporting on Dreamwave's attempt to contain information about Patyk and McDonough's firing]</ref>, some sites ignored that request, thereby revealing that Patyk and McDonough were owed a significant amount of money for their work.<ref>[http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=3842 TFormers.com quoting a statement by Patyk and McDonough]</ref> At the same time, Pat Lee would start to do contractual work for Marvel and DC again, such as issues of ''House of M'' or ''Superman/Batman''.

===The end===

While other artists and writers, including Simon Furman, at least temporarily joined the fold of creators not getting paid by Dreamwave, Chris Sarracini was asked to rewrite the stories previously submitted by Patyk and McDonough.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2045 Lying in the Gutters reporting that even Simon Furman was temporarily not paid, and the stories by Patyk and McDonough were being rewritten]</ref> Likewise, a long-since announced ''Beast Wars'' title McDonough and Patyk had previously worked on was now supposed to be written by Furman instead. However, those stories would ultimately never be published, as Hasbro had already declined to renew Dreamwave's license to publish Transformers comics by this point. <ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2054 Lying in the Gutters reporting that Hasbro had revoked Dreamwave's ''Transformers'' license]</ref> Following numerous rumors, including one posted by [[Ben Yee]] on his own website [http://www.bwtf.com/ BWTF.com], Dreamwave officially declared bankruptcy on [[January 4]], 2005, blaming the weak United States Dollar and other scapegoats for the company's failure, including a vastly incorrect claim about Dreamwave being the "only Canadian independent comics publisher".<ref>[http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=4053 Dreamwave's final press release]</ref>

By this time, Pat and Roger had already spent four months secretly moving most of Dreamwave's assets to a new company named Dream Engine, whose website domain was registered to Roger's name. The existence of Dream Engine first became public in early January of 2005.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2059 Lying in the Gutters discovering the existence of Dream Engine]</ref>

===The aftermath===
The overall amount of Dreamwave's debt was far over a million dollars.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14886 Lying in the Gutters' list of Dreamwave's creditors]</ref> While former Dreamwave employees never saw a single cent of the money they were owed for their work, Pat Lee repeated the performance a year later with Dream Engine, ultimately resulting in him departing from the new company and once again starting a new business, ''Pat Lee Productions''. Meanwhile, a Canadian entrepreneur named Christian Dery acquired the remaining Dreamwave assets, including the name "Dreamwave" and the rights to their "original" titles such as ''Warlands'' or ''Darkminds'', in August of 2005. Ultimately, however, no new Dreamwave comics would ever see the light of day, and the "new" Dreamwave ended up not paying employees ''either''.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2765 Lying in the Gutters reporting on trouble with the "new" Dreamwave]</ref> Eventually, Dreamwave II would close shop in mid-2006, selling back the remaining Dreamwave properties to Roger Lee and Dream Engine.<ref>[http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2769 Lying in the Gutters reporting on the final fate of the "new" Dreamwave]</ref>

{{bigquote|Looking back, I'm glad I didn't do any work for Dreamwave... at the time, I'd have worked for free but it turns out everyone else at Dreamwave was doing that anyway.|Nick Roche <ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIkqheta3GE Moonbase 2 interview with Roche]</ref>}}

==Series published==
=== Dreamwave G1 ===
*''[[Prime Directive|Prime Directive (G1 Volume 1)]]''
*''[[War and Peace|War and Peace (G1 Volume 2)]]''
*''[[Generation 1 (Dreamwave comic)|Generation 1 Ongoing (G1 Volume 3)]]''
*''[[The War Within]]''
*''[[War Within: The Dark Ages|The War Within: The Dark Ages]]''
*''[[The War Within: Age of Wrath]]''
*''[[Micromasters]]''

''See also:
* [[Dreamwave timeline]]
* [[Dreamwave continuity]]''

=== Unicron Trilogy ===
*''[[Armada (Dreamwave comic)|Armada]]''
*''[[Energon (comic)|Energon]]''

=== Transformers/G.I. Joe ===
*''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe Vol. 1]]''
*''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe Vol. 2]]''

=== Other ===
*''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]''
*''[[More Than Meets The Eye (Armada)|More Than Meets The Eye: Armada]]''
* ''[[Dreamwave Summer Special|20th Anniversary Transformers Summer Special]]''

''See also: [[Unreleased Dreamwave issues]]

==Japanese release==

For better or worse (likely the latter), the Dreamwave comics hold the honor of being the very first Western ''Transformers'' comics to be officially translated and published in Japan. They were published by [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A3%E3%82%A4%E3%83%96 JIVE Ltd.] (JIVE American Comics Series) and translated by [[Hiroto Ishikawa]] and [[Katsuya Akitomo]]. Releases began in November of 2003 and ended in December of 2004.

The graphic novels released in Japan were identical to the ones released in the US (aside from language, of course). The following collections were released:

*[[Prime Directive#International printings|Generation 1 Vol. 1]]
*[[War and Peace#Japan|Generation 1 Vol. 2]]
*[[The War Within#Japan|The War Within Vol. 1]]
*[[Armada (Dreamwave comic)#International printings|Armada Vol. 1]]
*[[Armada (Dreamwave comic)#International printings|Armada Vol. 2]]
*[[Armada (Dreamwave comic)#International printings|Armada Vol. 3]]

This gave Japanese ''Transformers'' fans their very first glimpse, at least on an official level, of what Western ''Transformers'' comics were like. A very unfortunate first impression, to be sure.

== Footnotes ==
<references />

== External links ==
* [http://tfarchive.com/comics/dreamwave/ By-issue guides, G1 timeline and information (TFArchive)]
* [http://seibertron.com/comics/series.php Cross-referenced information about series and creators (Seibertron)]
* [http://tfarchive.com/community/showpost.php?p=509985&postcount=44 Unpublished Dreamwave G1 continuity timeline]
[[Category: Comics]]
[[Category: Companies]]
[[Category: Dreamwave| ]]

Talk:Megatron (WFC)

2010-07-03T15:33:31Z

173.71.105.23: New page: ==Name== I haven't read Exodus, so I don't know if this is in there, but the Transformers.com timeline says that in addition to being a gladiator, Megatron's standard job was laboring in t...

==Name==
I haven't read Exodus, so I don't know if this is in there, but the Transformers.com timeline says that in addition to being a gladiator, Megatron's standard job was laboring in the mines as a worker designated D-16. http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172

Template:Spiritguides nav

2010-07-02T04:47:44Z

173.71.105.23:

{{chapters
|title=[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4|FFoD]] spirit guides
|style=2
|content=
* [[Ancient Robot]]
* [[Prima]]
* [[Prime Nova]]
* [[Pre-Transformer (character)|Pre-Transformer]]
* [[New Narrator]]
* [[Sentinel Prime (G1)#Generation 1 cartoon|Sentinel Prime]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]
}}<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>

Template:Spiritguides nav

2010-07-02T03:54:26Z

173.71.105.23:

{{chapters
|title=[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4|FFoD]] spirit guides
|style=2
|content=
* [[Ancient Robot|Primon]]
* [[Powerful Robot|Prima]]
* [[Brooding Robot|Prime Nova]]
* [[Pre-Transformer (character)|Guardian Prime]]
* [[New Narrator|Zeta Prime]]
* [[Sentinel Prime (G1)#Generation 1 cartoon|Sentinel Prime]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]
}}<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>

Template:Spiritguides nav

2010-07-02T03:52:56Z

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{{chapters
|title=[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4|FFoD]] spirit guides
|style=2
|content=
* [[Primon]]
* [[Prima]]
* [[Prime Nova]]
* [[Pre-Transformer (character)|Guardian Prime]]
* [[Zeta Prime]]
* [[Sentinel Prime (G1)#Generation 1 cartoon|Sentinel Prime]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]
}}<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude>

Talk:Sentinel Prime (G1)

2010-07-02T03:45:37Z

173.71.105.23:

==Autobot leader?==
I think that statement wans't true outside of Dreamwave continuity Walky. Prime-as-leeader-of-the-Autobots didnt' come about until well after SP's death. 'There Shall Come a Leader' and all that said the Autobots were not only led by the High Council, but they also commanded the military. Optimus Prime beign named Commander-in-Chief of the army was the turning point of the war. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: Isn't there a Marvel UK panel of Sentinel Prime passing the Matrix to Optimus? That's the only full-body shot we've ever got of him. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

...you mean like the one I uploaded 2 minutes ago? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: What I'm saying is he looks like he's Autobot leader to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::And I woudl agree with you. He definatelyt was in The War Within. But in Marvel's backstory (at least UK) Optimus Prime was the first TF made leader of the Autobots, which had previously been led by the High Council (one of the reasons for their ineffectiveness.) And that's jsut the army. NEITHER had been civil leader. (Well, Prime possibly was followign Xaaron's death.)
:::I'd argue that Sentinel Prime was still Autobot leader even though he had a council to answer to. Is UT Optimus Prime not Autobot leader? He has a council of ancients who can veto him as well. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Good point, and well said. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Keepers Trilogy info==
There's a fairly lengthy list of Sentinel Prime's abilities and weapons in the Keepers Trilogy. I plan to put that in his main section since he's such a ciper. Any objections? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Unsuccessful?==
...and why was he unsuccessful? because he died? Optimus Prime died, does that make him unsuccessful? What about the Primes that reigned during times of peace? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:Because everyone said he was. Everyone specifically said Sentinel Prime (and all the others) did a piss-poor job. Megatron slaughtered them. It was only Optimus who did a good job. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::Really, I could have sworn that Sentinel Prime was Prime before war started, and thus Megatron had slaughtered, at max, one Prime before Optimus. When did <nowiki>{{Template:Tooltip|everyone|Was it Bluestreak? He says lots of things...}}</nowiki> say this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:::A fairly big point is made that none of the previous Primes were military leaders. They were without "clout," as Grimlock put it. They just weren't very good, and it was Optimus who turned the tide of the war. Apparently archivists are great military leaders or something. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::::In Dreamwave continuity, there were only 2 more primes prior to Sentinel Prime (not counting Prima) at leat one of which was not deactivated, but instead 'left for parts unknown.'
::::Your very argument, that Sentinel Prime did a 'piss poor job' adnd wasn't suited to beign a war leader lends itself to the belief he'd been appointed PRIOR to the begining of the war. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Actually, my belief was that the Matrix just chose shitty Primes. (Which works with what you say the Keepers Trilogy may have been suggesting.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::How does 'Megatron chose Optronix to be a shitty Prime' translate into 'the matrix chose him to be a shitty Prime'?
::::::And it's not suggesting- it's pretty explicit.

<DIV STYLE="nargin:10px;background:#eeeeee;padding:10px;">"Sentinel Prime," Optimus choaked. He was looking up into the face of his predecessor, and he could only imagine the Autobot's shame and disgust.

"I'm not a ghost," Sentinel Prime said. "I'm as real as anything else in your mind, and to your senses. The Matrix within you chose this form to communicate with you."

Optimus almost laughed. This wasn't happening. It couldn't be happening; "Not the best time..."

"You were right to think that an error was made. It never should have been you, Optimus. You should have been free to choose the life you would lead. This burden of leadership had been meant for another. It is only after many years of detailed self-diagnostic routines that the flaw has become apparent."

"No..."

"You need to hear this, Optimus," Sentinel Prime said calmly. "You were chosen to fail. Chosen by Megatron himself."</DIV>

::::::Now, you CAN attempt to say that the Matrix is basically... messign with him. Tryign to shock him back to awareness. (Prime had been deep in a crisis of confidence and badly wounded, was basically considering 'letting go' and letting Megatron finish him off.) The next thing SP says is that- just because Prime had been chosen to fail doesnt' mean he should let Megatron kill him here and now.
::::::The '''problem''' with this argument is that Prime is obesessed with this idea that he wasn't meant to be Prime for all of book 1. And when he finally overcomes this confidence, he does not conclude the message was false, he jsut concludes it doesnt' matter if hr wwas the wrong choice 'at the time,' he's grown into someoen who can fill the role.
::::::Besides, I dont' think the Matrix would encourage Prime to pass the Matrix on to someone else if it was just messing with him, which it did.

::::::It may not have been what Furman meant when he wrote 'rigged the game,' but that's probably what Ciencin was basing it off of. But then, Ciencin probably based the Keepers off a text refernece to the old man from US#60 in the War Within. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Rigged the game==
Again, Derik, you read weird things into pretty straight-forward dialogue. I'm pretty sure the only game he means is battle. War is his, he invented it, yadda yadda yadda. It's common Furman-style rhetoric. I don't really see the conspiracy theory, and I'm puzzled even further how Megatron could rig the Matrix to choose Optromix, especially since he spends the whole first miniseries trying to get the dang thing. If he can manipulate it that deeply from afar, why the hell bother? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's stupid too. But according the Keepers Trilogy, the claim is real. Or rather, after all the smoke and confusion over the robotic Sentinel Prime underiming Optimus Prime's confidence settled- it emerged that the original vision, which claimed Megatron has chosen Optronix to be Prime in order that he would fail (and thus Megatron would get the Matrix) actually WAS a real vision projected by the Matrix.

So... yeah. You can delete the italicised claim if it suits you, bit it at least fits that otherwise rather ODD bit fromt he books, and makes it seem more like he just pushed them to choose the records-clerk. "He'll be easy." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Umlauts are Cool==
NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC!

do you think that the evil clone of Hot Rod, as one of Megatron's 'diabolical clones' used diacriticals to distinguish himself from the original?

You know, like: '''Höt Röd''' ?

Was there some point when characters discussed Sentinal Prime and said he had 'a good head on his shoulders- well, he USED to?' Or am I totally remembering somethign that never happened? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: "Sentinel Prime, he had his head screwed on." "Not at the end, he didn't."
: So, uh, is it me, or did Stephen Colbert write the italicized portion of the profile? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, but WHERE was that from? I'm blanking, and I dont' have time to sit down and re-read all of TWW to find it, I just got Angelig Days v1, and I have a date with Kowaru slashiness!
::I like to cap off my character biographies with something that sums them up. I can't HELP that this one was inherently hilarious. Prime learnign to trust his heart but USE his fists was the entire damn point of The War Within.
::I should go back and cut down that top entry, I bet you could cut 40% of the text withotu losing any meaning. It was a bitch to get it all structured, but once in place, it could stand to be trimemd back... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

== Not Dead Yet ==

Acoording to Alex Milne (the artist) Sentinel didn't die at the end of Megatron Origin. But like much of his artwork it is kinda hard to tell.

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=2612

Here is the quote ....."with sentinel prime, he's different then nova, and optimus. he's a brute. also, he's not dead yet. he won't die for a while still. but he has been beaten badly."

==Disambigs==
The number of disambig templates at the top of this article is really ridiculous. We should have sort of statute of limitations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
:I think we could ''easily'' limit this one to just a <nowiki>{{disambig3|Sentinel}}</nowiki>--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
::I agree. Just make it a "Sentinel Prime" disambig. The others are fairly superfluous. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 09:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

== "Precisely aimed, pointblank shot" ==

Unless this description of Sentinel's armor is a direct quote from someplace, I'd suggest rewording it. I don't think it's logically possible to have a non-precisely-aimed point-blank shot.
:It's definitely possible, especially during a close-quarters struggle. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)
::Wouldn't it actually be an accurately aimed shot? Shots hitting close to each other are precise, shots hitting the target are accurate. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:58, 20 December 2009 (EST)

==Sentinel Major==
I really think, when we get around to adding this info, it should go on [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]]. They are analogous characters within the same continuity family. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:Seconded. They're using 'Major' as a rank here, not a name.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated? There's no physical resemblance between any G1 version of Sentinel Prime and this fellow. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

::I had been pondering this myself, and I'm not entirely sure it would go on here either, seeing as how there's a good chance that Sentinel is never a Prime in the Wings of Honor continuity.
::I actually do agree with the assertion that Sentinel Major ''is'' probably the WoH equivalent of Sentinel Prime, mind you. It just, well, seems odd to put him on a Sentinel ''Prime'' article if it ends up he's never a Prime.
::(I guess we could just add on some alternate names in the header and make some Notes, but I'm always on the side of trying for obvious clarity first.)
::Although Ayellowbirds does have a point. It's not as if any of the other WoH Autobot leaders we've seen so far have had ranks added to their names. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::The specifics of the name is a non-issue, since these pages are character-entity based. IDW Tankor is probably never gonna be called Octane, but he still goes on Octane's page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:23, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::They don't resemble each other, either, and there's no evidence yet that one is intended to be analogous to the other. Tankor/Octane were flatly stated to be 'the same', as is Fracture/Crasher, and any number of others. I don't see cause to assume that Sentinel Major is meant to be the same character as G1 Sentinel Prime (he is pretty obviously based on Animated Sentinel Prime, who I'd argue is completely distinct), and I would think that keeping them distinct until they're stated to be the same would be ideal. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:31, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::Octane/Tankor is obviously intended to be the exact same guy and only has different names due to out-of-universe concerns unrelated to the fiction, so that is irrelevant.
::::Meanwhile, here we have a "Sentinel" who will never be Prime because ''in-universe'' he likely won't attain that rank. So having him at a "Sentinel Prime" page is arguably strange.
::::Now, if this article was at just "Sentinel", then I'd be perfectly fine with it because there'd be no inherent assumption in the title that we're talking about a guy who is a "Prime".
::::There's also the fact that, like I said, do we know "Major" is actually a rank? 'Clash and Metalhawk don't have ranks of any kind, and neither does Magnum, and they all seem to have more status in the hierarchy than someone who at the moment seems like he's just Magnum's attache/bodyguard.
::::Basically, it seems more clear and simple to just give the guy his own page. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:32, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

:ItsWalky!- Aside from sharing the name 'Sentinel', I don't see any clear indication that they're meant to be analogous to each other. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:02, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I made this article, because my knee-jerk reaction was to go on the wiki and create as complete an article as was possible... and ''then'' it occurred to me to check the policy page. I decided that setting up the page as a place-holding stub might work to prevent other people from making the same mistake I almost did, by having an existing page that links to the policy. It's not the loveliest article, but I don't think it needs to be, just yet. Of course, if I've misunderstood the relevant policies, y'all can go ahead and delete it. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:57, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:I think the main problem is that sometimes even putting up a article that's the minimum for a placeholder can still be too much of a spoiler, so we usually just hold off. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but as a general thing... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

"Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated?" Things do NOT always need to be explicitly stated. We have brains and intelligence, we're allowed to use both deductive and even inductive reasoning to make our conclusions. Major has often been used as a rank in Transformers, and Prime these days is almost ALWAYS used as a rank. Whether or not this Sentinel ever explicitly achieves that rank, he's still basically just a new iteration of the same character. As for the physical resemblance to Animated, I think that's to be expected. Sentinel Prime has always been a non-entity in the past, with a non-memorable design. Animated has changed that ... I'd frankly be shocked if future versions of Sentinel Prime (and his ilk) DIDN'T start to drift towards Animated.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:36, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::I'm with Jim. As far as I'm concerned, this is just the G1 cartoon's Sentinel Prime. He may have never become Sentinel Prime, but he's still the same guy. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:49, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:When these days has Prime been used as a rank in G1? Not arguing, just genuinely curious- I thought that was exclusive to Animated, and that Hasbro was fiercely protective of using the title, otherwise. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::"Prime" was used as a rank instead of a name the very moment "Rodimus Prime" existed. The cartoon CREATED using "Prime" to indicate rank. The Marvel comic took it further and used "Prime" as a rank for the guys that preceded Optimus as well. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:50, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::See, for me, the use in the cartoon and comics (and Hasbro's later use in stories stemming from G1) is more along the lines of a ''title'' like 'saint'. It denotes authority, but also a wholly or semi-spiritual mandate; in contrast, Optimus has the 'rank' of Commander, denoted by his function. That said, I think it starts to become a matter of semantics. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:13, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:I think I miscommunicated my argument somewhere along the lines. Simply put: there's more factors working AGAINST the assumption that Timelines Sentinel Major ''is'' G1 Sentinel Prime, rather than in favor of it. If you want to talk in terms of Major/Prime being ranks, doesn't G1 canon tend to establish that Sentinel was a Prime ''before'' Optimus was rebuilt from Optronix/Orion? Evidence suggests that this takes place after that, so he'd have to have dropped in rank, unless this is a wildly divergent timeline. As for appearance, G1 Sentinel Prime has pretty consistently been a mass of yellow and orange, at the very least- Sentinel Major is mostly blue. I'm not saying any one of these factors works against the assumption... I'm saying all of them together do so. Can you point out evidence in favor of your assertions? -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Sentinel could *never* become Sentinel Prime in this timeline and still be the same guy. Was Sentinel a Prime before Orion Pax became Optimus Prime? It doesn't matter. The Dinobots were either part of the Ark crew from Cybertron over 4 million years ago or they were built on Earth in 1985. These are very timeline-conflicty things, and yet they're all on the same pages. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::So why the assertion that Sentinel Major is Sentinel Prime? There's no evidence in favor of that being the intent, and numerous factors working against it. The Dinobots in the different continuities (and continuity conflicts in a given story) are still plainly represented as being the Dinobots, are stated by the creators of those continuities to be the Dinobots, and have an appearance that is consistent with previous versions. My arguments against Sentinel Major being Sentinel Prime aren't airtight, but nobody has given any argument in favor of them being the same. The burden of proof is on your side. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:08, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::It isn't that complicated. He's the G1 version of Sentinel, so his information goes on the G1 Sentinel page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:11, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::Has it been stated anywhere that that's the case? It sounds to me like you're saying that the evidence that he's meant to be the same as Sentinel Prime is that he shares one part of his name in common with the Prime... which is about as weak an argument as saying that you and I are the same person because we have similar first names. I don't see why there can't be multiple distinct Cybertronians with the [[Silverbolt_(G1)|same]] [[Silverbolt_(BW)|name]] existing in the same continuity. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:20, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::The very fact that he looks pretty much identical to [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is extremely strong evidence that he is intended to, in fact, '''BE''' Sentinel Prime. We've always maintained that, absence evidence to the contrary, characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character (for instance, [[Spittor (Animated)]] is never referred to by name, but no one argues that maybe it's not Spittor) and I see no reason why we can't use the converse argument here.
::::::In other words, as I said before, we have the capability of using reason, it behooves us to use it. Let's not be intentionally daft. This tendency to stick our fingers in our ears and thrust our heads under the sand is counterproductive to genuinely cataloging knowledge and enhancing our understanding of the beauty that is Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:54, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::Okay, we can say that "characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character", so we can say that G1 Sentinel ''Major'' is Animated Sentinel Prime... but neither of them ''look'' like any version of the G1 Sentinel ''Prime''. There '''is''' a demonstrable link between the Animated character and the G1 character in Wings of Honor, but I don't see any link aside from the name between the Animated character and the earlier G1 character. This is like saying [[Jetstorm_(Animated)|Jetstorm]] is [[Jetstorm_(BM)|Jetstorm]]- except there, we at least have some aspects of appearance in common.
::::::As for Spittor, there's authorial intent and other sources outside the cartoon itself to establish that they're meant to be 'the same'. Nothing like that in this case, so far as I've seen. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:33, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::: Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that FP puts out a new story, set in a "what if?" universe where, during the events of [[War Dawn]], Orion Pax dies without having ever become Optimus Prime, and Dion goes on to become the leader of the Autobots. This version of Orion would still be a legitimate Optimus Prime (G1). --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]]
:::::Arguably so, but G1 Orion Pax is still established in canon as being 'the same person' as G1 Optimus Prime. There's nothing yet in canon establishing G1 Sentinel Major as being the same person as G1 Sentinel Prime. The problem I have here is that people are saying that one character is the other without any evidence that that's the authorial intent. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:45, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::Leaving Andrusi's persuasive argument aside, you're admitting that G1 Sentinel Major IS a G1 version of a Sentinel Prime, albeit from Animated. So ... you admit that he's basically '''A''' Sentinel Prime. But, what, you think he might be a different Sentinel Prime?
::::::As for differences or similarities between this Sentinel and other incarnations of Sentinel ... other versions of Sentinel Prime are complete ciphers. Non-entities. They have no personality and generally have been defined by their actions; dying. What personality similarities would you like to see?
::::::IMO, you're just being silly. I think you're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not going to keep making arguments going around in circles. The consensus seems to be that G1 is the place to keep him. If that changes, maybe I'll pop back and argue with you some more.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::I'm not sure how two people arguing to keep the info here, and two people arguing for it to go on a separate page (albeit for two different reasons) = a consensus either way, but okay. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

::::::Jim: Yes, I agree that Sentinel Major seems to be based on Animated Sentinel Prime, just as [[Cop-Tur_(Timelines)]] is based on [[Cop-Tur]]- but Pete Sinclair explicitly said the two Cop-Turs are ''not'' meant to be the same character. As I pointed out above, there are numerous instances of two characters with the same or similar names existing in one continuity in Transformers, just as there are many John Smiths in real life.
::::::Personality? This one's a cipher too, but you can say that about any character with as few lines as he's had.
::::::IMO, you're being contradictory, at times saying that personality and appearance don't matter, and then at other times saying they do. As far as I'm concerned, until someone who was responsible for him appearing in the Fun Pub story comes forward and says one way or the other, there's no reason to assume Timelines Sentinel Major is meant to be any other character than himself. To say otherwise is speculative, and I was under the impression that that was against policy here. I'm gonna hold off from now on, to wait and see what the official word is... but even if they say he's meant to be G1 Sentinel Prime, I'll still say that the right thing to do was to wait and hear FP/Hasbro/whomever say it is so, rather than leaping to conclusions and putting him here on fan speculation alone. --[[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]]16:11, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=68246&view=findpost&p=1503443 Does this post poke the discussion in either direction]? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:While I'd say that supports the "G1 Sentinel Major is not G1 Sentinel Prime" argument, I have to ask: is the poster is someone has the authority to make that assertion? I don't frequent the Allspark, so I don't know who's who there. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 16:30, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Yeah. NightViper is [[Jesse Wittenrich]]'s handle. (...which reminds me I need to update his page.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:32, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:Not really. It only reconfirms that Sentinel is not a Matrix-bearer, and therefore not a Prime, as they apparently call those in the cartoon universe. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:46, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

===The Official Word on [[Sentinel Major]]===
[[Jesse Wittenrich]] replied to a posting I made on the Club Magazine subforum at the TFCC site to say the following:
{{quote|G1 Sentinel Prime's only importance (other than dying) was that he was the Matrix bearer and leader of the Autobots before Optimus.

Since Sentinel Major is not a Matrix bearer nor the leader of the Autobots, well...}}

He clarified this in a second reply by saying:
{{quote|He's a separate character from the G1 comic Sentinel Prime's character/archetype}}

So, I think that makes it fairly clear, no? Thanks to Jeysie for double-checking with him on what he meant. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:52, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:And after reading Sorenson's response I'm now reminded of the bit where I noted in my query to Wittenrich that "sometimes [the Wiki folks] aren't even happy WITH [a straight answer]". --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

:I don't think it makes it clear at all. He goes out of his way to NOT say if it's a different iteration of the same character and instead talks about archetypes. Also, is there context for the question? I mean, they're undoubtedly different guys, just as comics Shockwave is a different guy than cartoon Shockwave (different archetypes, too.) That doesn't mean they're not what we of the wiki would consider to some version of the same character, though.
:Besides, as an author, I've long taken the position that authorial intent is worth the paper it's printed on. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:18, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::HA! In fact, deconstructing his answer, assuming he was asked something straightforward like "are they the same character" and he said that they're a different character/archetype could actually be evidence that they ARE what WE would consider to be a different franchise iteration of the same underlying fundamental character. Why else the otherwise-unnecessary qualifier about archetypes? (My Lit. Hum. class is coming back to me.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:25, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Because "comic Sentinel Prime" is the ''only'' G1 Sentinel Prime that's existed so far. Based on Wittenrich's Allspark response (where he notes that there's no Sunbow Sentinel Prime), he's making that qualifier simply because he wants to be accurate about there being no cartoon Sentinel Prime to compare to--so comic Sentinel Prime is the only possible character to compare to--not because he's trying to say WoH and G1 Sentinel Prime are the same character.
:::Because, seriously, if he was saying that WoH and comic Sentinel are the same character, why would he spell out that "comic Sentinel is these things, and WoH is ''not'' any of those things, therefore..." Duh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::He unambiguously says they're separate characters, "archetype" was an addition to that statement. As for context, my post that he replied to was ''"Okay, I figured this is the best place to ask for an official opinion on the issue, since it's becoming kind of contentious on the wiki.''
::'' '''Is Sentinel Major meant to be the same as G1 Sentinel Prime, or a distinct entity?''' ''
::''In other words, is it the intent that Sentinel Major is meant to be the Timelines version of G1 Sentinel Prime, or a new character (presumably based on Animated Sentinel Prime)?"''
::His reply was followed by Jeysie asking ''"So... is that a yes or no to him being a separate character?"'', whence came Wittenrich's reply above in the second quotation.
::If you're going to say authorial intent is invalid, then I don't think you have any grounds to say that Sentinel Major is Sentinel Prime, either. The way it looks to me is that there is ''some'' evidence that G1 SM is not G1 SP, and ''no'' evidence that they're the same character. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Man, I can't wait to separate IDW from G1 because of what Don Figueroa said and combine all the Optimus Primes into one page because of something Simon Furman said. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:06, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Man, we might have to do that if there wasn't plenty of canon evidence to the contrary that means we don't need to resort to authorial intent in those cases. Fortunately for us, it's just you once again not taking the time to understand the actual point being made before you mouth off. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:25, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Walky- We could ignore authorial intent entirely, sure. But there's still more evidence to suggest that Sentinel Major is NOT some incarnation of G1 Sentinel Prime, than there is to say that they're meant to be the same. Particularly since there's ''no evidence whatsoever'' to support the latter idea. The only connecting factor is the word "Sentinel" in their names, and that they're both in G1 continuities. Maybe that's enough evidence for you, but not for me. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 17:55, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:: They're both high-ranking military characters named Sentinel, both based on the idea of "Sentinel Prime." That is enough for me. I also disagree about asking authors who aren't familiar with how our wiki's categorization works on how to categorize our characters on this wiki, and their answer being seen as authoritative. If you want to ask them other questions, that's fine, and the answers can be illuminating, but I don't think they should dictate wiki policy. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:39, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Since Rosicrucian stated he disagreed with your stance on this point, at least one person familiar with how the wiki works has weighed in, actually. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:57, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::Is this page moved back to Sentinel Prime (G1)? That means I care what some other people think. That doesn't mean I can't still make my case. I just don't see the "official" answer as authoritative when it comes to certain policy decisions. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:14, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::I apologize, I misinterpreted authors as "wiki authors" and thought you were talking about the Community Portal discussion, not Pete & Wittenrich's commentary. As such, I was confused, because I didn't think/know we had an official written-down policy on how we determine whether a character belongs on a same page or a different one or not.
:::::Since I admit I see this as being the exact same situation as the Killzone one, where, in a lack of outright canon evidence, authorial intent trumps circumstantial reasoning. So to me, saying Sentinel Major is different from G1 Sentinel Prime is actually following an already-made precedent, not allowing third-party authors to dictate policy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:36, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::I don't see how the Killzone thing is relevant. That was a fancharacter versus a canon character thing. Sentinel Major, no matter how tenuously, did get his name and position of authority from G1 Sentinel Prime. It wasn't a coincidence like Killzone. With Sentinel, I can connect the dots. Killzone is just a case of accidental name recycling. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Sentinel Major got his name, likeness, and position from ''Animated'' Sentinel Prime. And IMHO it's circumstantial reasoning to say that Animated Sentinel and G1 Sentinel are alike enough for syllogism purposes (since Ani Sentinel also lacks any canon definite similarity to G1 Sentinel ''and'' he was originally intended to be Rodimus Prime, which further points to a mere name reuse), which I would think leaves us back up at authorial intent.
:::::::Basically, when there's no definite canon evidence, and authorial intent exists, I personally consider said intent to have more weight than our fan theories. I don't think anything one can label as "tenuous" is a good thing to base wiki decisions on when there's more concrete evidence available. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

===Sentinel Prime===
{{note|This conversation was moved from [[User talk:Jimsorenson#Sentinel Prime]].}}
Not to drag this on past when I said I was done, but one thing is still really confusing me: you seemed firmly convinced that Sentinel Major was meant to be G1 Sentinel Prime. What exactly was your evidence for that? Just a nagging curiosity from the back of my skull. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 10:22, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Just story structure / my own logical deductions, I'm afraid. I don't have any special inside knowledge or anything.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:36, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::I don't assume any special inside knowledge, all I asked about was the evidence on which you based your reasoning. If you deduced something, it would have been based on observable facts: what are those facts? -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 17:31, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::: I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime. They are analogs. That relationship goes both ways. This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:42, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::: Okay, I can see where that would be valid in other cases, but I don't see the evidence outside of the common name that Sentinel Prime is meant to be an Animated incarnation of G1 Sentinel Prime. Animated Sentinel Prime doesn't have any traits (in his ''role'' as a character, since we can't say anything about the G1 Prime's characterization) in common with any of the very brief appearances of the G1 character, and — feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken — there's nothing canon establishing him as an homage or incarnation. If this is policy, perhaps its merits should be revisited. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 18:35, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

:::::Walky's stating most of my argument very well. Animated Sentinel Prime is, to me, pretty clearly a homage to the original G1 Sentinel Prime, with the caveat that instead of being a predecessor, he's now a contemporary. And, yes, I know that G1 Sentinel Prime generally just shows up to die, but he's also basically an equal to Optimus, one who takes a different path. In that sense, Animated Sentinel Prime seems very much alike. Also, I'm pretty sure (and may double check) that yes, he was an intentional homage to the idea of the character, albeit one who evolved somewhat differently. Also, Major has been used exclusively as a rank in transformers, never as part of a name. Combining those two facts and it seemed clear to me that Sentinel Major was the same guy as G1 Sentinel Prime, just one who walked a very different path.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:36, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::Okay, so there's the fundamental difference of views at the root of the arguments: I've always seen Animated Sentinel Prime as a completely new character with no connection whatsoever to the G1 character of the same name. To me, the idea that it was the intention of the series creators to make an homage to the G1 character seems completely unfounded. But then, homages are a matter of authorial intent, since the identity of a character as an homage can only be definitively established in 'meta' sources. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:25, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::I can see how that would take us to different conclusions.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:35, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

I am putting my foot down. Move this to Sentinel Major (Sunbow) and the other to Sentinel Major (WoH) or something, but this getting fucking stupid. The word of person actually writing the damn story goes over someone who doesn't even work or write for the other storyline in question. Christ. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:25, 1 July 2010 (EDT) 
Especially since it seems even Sorenson says on the Allspark he wasn't addressing the WoH storyline, but the cartoon. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:42, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::Since U-Haul fits the typical G1 archetype for Sentinel Prime, keep this page as it is and relabel Wings Sentinel with a (WoH) tag, since Pete says he's a totally different character anyway. That's probably the simplest thing to do.

Talk:U-Haul Robot

2010-07-02T00:46:36Z

173.71.105.23:

According to Chris McFeely's Script Secrets:

''The ancient Autobot leaders are not identified by name, just by the way they act. They are Ancient Robot, Powerful Robot, Brooding Robot, Pre-Transformer, New Narrator and U-Haul Robot.''

Now.. the thing is, there are more announcers identified than there were robot leaders depicted. I remember determining this way back when. Obviously the ZZ Top dude is Ancient Robot, but I can't remember what else I figured... this is U-Haul Robot, maybe? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
:Can we get a link to that site if it's still up?

:Oh right, I forgot that. (I remember readign the summaries.)
:That's actually reallyt helpful, because it lets you 'read' the whole flashback sequence more clearly. This is what I've got.
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/ancient.jpg Ancient Robot] - A lock
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/powerful.jpg Powerful Robot] - I'm 100% sure this is him, despite not getting an 'external' scene of him talking to Rodimus.
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/brooding.jpg Brooding Robot]
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/pre-tf.jpg Pre-Transformer] - Animation mistake- same as Brooding robot! I'm fairly sure this one is the mistake of the two. (It's vaguely possible the TF we were supposed to see was the one on the right in the next pic.)
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/new_narrator.jpg New Narrator] - Context suggests the TF ont he left is the new critih-accent narrator.
:[http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/u-haul.jpg U-Haul Robot] - Duh.

:I'm pleased about Powerful Robot, I didnt' realise he had a name. (well, a designation.) And really, this whoel sequence makes a lot of sense with War Dawn- the Autobots were consumer boods- but some of them were geared to gladitrial combat- who tended to be the leaders. Thus- U-Haul robot ended up as Autobot lwader literally epochs after his first appearance as a quint slave-- I think that by War Dawn, all the autobots with any real war experience/aptitude had been whittled away, thus the need for Trion to make a new design of warrior-autobot. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Would that make this guy the "Sentinel Prime" of the G1 Caratoon? ~Ithekro

----

[[Image:G2StoryPageReconfigurationMatrix1.jpg|thumb]]Check it out, It's Brooding Robot/Pre-TF!
[[User:69.14.158.214|69.14.158.214]] 07:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
: I've replaced your linked image with the version currently on the Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Could he be [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]

:Sentinel Prime, in every continuity shown, has different colors, accents, helmet design, etc. Admittedly, he seems to have been the matrix-holder-leader-before-Prime in cartoon continuity... but that does not automatically make him Sentinel Prime. Dreamweave, for instance, had a different Chain of Primes than Marvel did, so the list doesn't necessarily translate from one continuity to another. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

So did Sentinel Prime appearance in G1 Cartoons?

:No. And he may not have existed for the G1 cartoons, which had a different line of matrix-holders.
:(Quite aside the practical issue of the fact the cartoon ceased production in 1988, and Furman didnt' invent Sentinel Prime until 1989.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
::Looks like the AA2 has something to say about that...

Omega Key

2010-06-30T00:34:24Z

173.71.105.23:

{{Spoiler|War for Cybertron}}
:''The Omega Key is an object from the [[Transformers: War for Cybertron|War for Cybertron]] portion of the [[Transformers: Prime|Prime continuity family]].''

The '''Omega Key''' is an important relic in [[Cybertronian]] culture that dated before the onset of the [[Great War]]. Typically, it is held by the [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] and leader of the [[Autobot]]s who guarded it from abuse as it held the power to guide users to the very core of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself. However, what was not known was the fact that the Key itself did not open the [[Omega Gate]] but simply alerted its [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Guardian]] who was the only [[Transformer]] capable of opening the doorway into the Core.

==Fiction==
===War for Cybertron===
During the closing years of the Great War, the [[Decepticon]]s staged a daring raid against an orbital space station above their homeworld that was rumored to contain a powerful as well as dangerous energy source known as [[Dark Energon]]. After [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] gained control of the facility and his new [[Sky Commander]] [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] activated the [[Energon Bridge]], Dark Energon began flowing into the Decepticons ranks. Seeking to gain complete control over Cybertron, Megatron sought access to the Core of the planet itself. However, he needed the Omega Key to open the Omega Gate. Unfortunately, the Key was in the hands of the Autobots - notably their leader [[Zeta Prime]]. Thus, the Decepticons laid siege to [[Iacon (city-state)|Iacon]] itself where Megatron successfully defeated Zeta Prime and took the Key from him. It was only then that a laughing Zeta Prime revealed that the Key's activation only awakened its Guardian, [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] who was coming to attack Megatron. {{storylink|War for Cybertron}}

{{stub}}

[[Category:War for Cybertron]]
[[Category:Objects]]

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-29T04:14:17Z

173.71.105.23: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.
::::::::(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter ''isn't'' canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation, and it looks like to me you're misunderstanding the definition of authorial intent. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. And let's face it, backpedaling at the point they are at right now isn't a good idea by any stretch of the standard. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::Derrick Wyatt also said, on several occasions, that as far as he is concerned there are no Primus and Unicron in the Animated universe. And I'm afraid his opinion doesn't count there, since the multiversal god conceit predates his work and is much bigger than it. As I end up pointing out here semi-regularly, authors have gotten stuff wrong before and we just mark it down as a trivia note. --[[Special:Contributions/74.73.134.205|74.73.134.205]] 14:39, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::So, a tiny mention of an idea in a completely different and unrelated continuity that's already been explicitly declared as not applying to all continuities, somehow counts more than actual canon fiction AND the word from someone who directly worked on a continuity and knows for a fact what the writers actually intended for it. Especially seeing as how even Furman, who ''invented'' Primus and Unicron, was explicitly going to write them out of IDW as well.
::::::::::::...OK, man, if believing something that illogical makes you happy, more power to you, I guess. Me, I don't presume to think I know better than the creators themselves when it comes to what is and isn't in their work. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Animated A3 behaves no differently from every other version we've ever seen. They're all eccentric but basically normal-seeming old dudes who have hints of great influence and age. Been that way ever since KtVS. ''Exodus'' comes out and says that this normal-seeming-eccentric-old-dude does indeed have great age and great influence. What is the difference now? They're just firmly putting boundaries on all the hints we've gotten for 25 years. From a story perspective there is nothing wrong with it at all; is the only problem really that the writer of this particular series said otherwise?
:::::::::::::Hasbro is the biggest of the creators, bigger than any individual writer, so if you're going to cite this or that intention / Word Of God, it's just going to be a self-defeating exercise. "A tiny mention" in any story at all is a heck of a lot more than we ever got of "no Unicron in Animated / IDW", since none of that was ever officially published at all. And what was "explicitly declared as not applying to all continuities"? The original 13 must, by definition, apply everywhere. The multiverse conceit has been solidly established since 2003 and all those stories were vetted by Hasbro; some were even written by Hasbro (as has been mentioned here already). Neither Wyatt nor Furman nor anybody else can "intend" their way out of it. Larry DiTillio "intended" for the Vok to have created sparks and for Transformers' after-death dimension to be the Vok's Nexus Zero. This, too, is now flatly impossible noncanon, as too many rigid rules explicitly contradicting it have been published for too many years. This is what happens when your franchise sets down explicit omnipresent rules for a multiversal origin: they are, by definition, bigger than everything else. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:45, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I've already covered this. What one continuity does has nothing to do with what any other continuity does. FunPub is its own continuity. Exodus is apparently the new WFC/Prime continuity. In no other case do we ever declare what happened in one continuity has overwritten another continuity's canon, or let one continuity's author's intent overwrite another continuity's author's intent, so I don't know why this is different. (And, FunPub is no more "Hasbro" writing fiction than IDW is Hasbro writing fiction, the movie team is Hasbro writing fiction, the cartoon teams are Hasbro writing fiction, etc. They're all contracted to write fiction on behalf of Hasbro.)
::::::::::::::Sinclair explicitly stated that the Movieverse is outside of the multiverse established in FunPub fiction. Hasbro's approved a lot more continuities contradicting the idea than they have ones that do. And we've never heard word from Hasbro yet on the matter, so there's no reason yet to discount the authorial intent of the actual creators because there's no official word or canon yet to contradict them.
::::::::::::::So, no, the whole multiversal singularity idea has not been "solidly established" at all. Exactly the contrary, in fact. Maybe at some point we'll actually get official confirmation from someone at Hasbro who works with more than one continuity, or some actual fiction that explicitly takes place in each continuity that writes the matter in, and then I'll say "OK" because then there'll be actual support for the matter. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:15, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::FunPub stories written by Forest Lee are absolutely more "Hasbro writing the fiction" than IDW, the movies, or the cartoons. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:42, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well, you know. Except for the whole fact that FunPub stories have been stated to not apply to every universe, and Forest Lee (AFAIK) has zero to do with writing the other continuities, and it's wiki policy to consider as everything equally canon.
::::::::::::::::Especially when we're talking stories that take place in a venue that hardly anybody reads vs. more mainstream venues. I fail to see how you can even think Lee's fiction is supposed to have these big, sweeping changes to the brand when only a tiny handful of people have even heard about/read it, and probably almost none of Hasbro's target demographic. How can something that barely anyone knows about be as important as you claim?
::::::::::::::::Maybe the current fiction ''will'' actually finally firmly establish the singularity as applying to every continuity in venues where everyone can actually see it. But until that time... I love FunPub's continuity, but the fact is that it's just one continuity out of many, and it's one almost nobody reads to boot. Treating it as more important than everything else just because the wiki's (understandably) biased towards it is ridiculous. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:41, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Where/when have the FP stories been stated to not apply to every universe? Just out of curiosity. I hadn't heard this before.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:51, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Sinclair mentioned on the Allspark that [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=64273&view=findpost&p=1388259 "Movie continuity is outside the multiverse."]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:58, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::That's.... very interesting to know. I think it's a perfect illustration of Jeysie's point, too: While Forest Lee may be the closest thing we have to the Mouth of Sauron, in every practical way his voice has been a squeak. He's no George Lucas, and if his multiversal-singularity foundation has really been so solidly established since 2003, then why didn't Orci and Kurtzman conform to it? Why did Pete have to hand-wave their work away? Because until possibly - ''possibly'' - now, the people who actually MATTER at Hasbro haven't given two shits about this level of continuity. And pretending like we can apply a Lucas-level primacy to the FunPub work has been and probably always will be an endless source of headaches, since other creators will keep blithely making square pegs that we bend ourselves over backwards trying to fit into Forest's round hole. (Uh.... that wasn't supposed to sound so filthy.) (Okay, it wasn't at first, but then I admit I kind of ran with it.)
:::::::::::::::::::Anyway, as to the matter at hand, I'm in favor of patience. Also of doing our damnedest to separate what's actually in the fiction from what's been said elsewhere. As others have mentioned, it's possible that the Exodus 13 aren't actually singularities, or maybe more than one being in the multiverse happens to be named "Alpha Trion"... Let's wait and see how the WFC/Exodus/Prime universe unfolds.
:::::::::::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:50, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::::I consider actual fiction canon, then authorial intent from the people who actually wrote the fiction for things that don't contradict canon. And the fact that Trion is not a historian and there's no Vector Sigma IS canon for Animated. Like I said, if Hasbro actually cared about the matter they could very very easily have made Isenberg write something in somewhere and removed all doubt, or told the creators to stop making untrue statements.
::::::::::Plus, it's not the existence of the 13 that's the problem, it's the idea of the singularity nonsense that's the problem. So far Hasbro's ''never'' said a single thing about that. All the info has been about ''the 13'' and has been related to TF: Prime; I haven't heard anything about singularities, unless there's BotCon news that wasn't reported.
::::::::::(And "official call" makes no sense. If anything, the opposite: all we've gotten is from FunPub fiction/writers, and FunPub's editor flatly said that the Movieverse, at least, is separate from FunPub's take. Meanwhile, IDW, the Movies, and Animated all have canon and statements flatly going against the singularity, and Hasbro's current statements have been about TF: Prime, not TF as a whole. So I don't get why people claim Hasbro's pushing the singularity when I've never seen a statement from them about it and they keep approving fiction that contradicts it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:36, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::::::::: Here's the problem. Hasbro HAS said officially that all the 13 are Multiversal Singularities. And they HAVE said A3 is a 13er. That's canon. That's what the wiki needs to go by. Nothing personal, but it doesn't matter what you personnally think about Authoral Intent. How like canon you make it in your own mind/fanon. That is NOT canon. It can be interesting. It can be worth mentioning on the wiki. But it is NOT CANON until it appears officially approved by Hasbro somwhere. So going by what's official the pages really need to be merged. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 06:38, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::No, they have not said that. The only thing I've ever seen about multiversal singularities has, like I said, come from FunPub writers and fiction. And, like I said, it's been stated directly by FunPub that at least one continuity is separate from what FunPub does. Like I also said, everything Hasbro has said about the Thirteen has only mentioned a single continuity: Exodus/TF: Prime; they haven't said the Thirteen are singularities. And, like I also also said, it's not just authorial intent but actual canon in the fiction that has contradicted the singularity idea. Fiction that was approved by Hasbro, I might add.
:::::::::::::It's you folks claiming that Hasbro is supposedly pushing the singularity that are ignoring canon and what Hasbro actually has and hasn't said. Not only that, but you are actually also going by authorial intent. In fact, you're being worse about it than I am, since you're going by authorial intent of people who have nothing to do with writing the continuities in question!
:::::::::::::So, to the contrary, going by what's official there's no reason to merge at all. Trion is a Thirteener in some continuities, yes, but that's it.
::::::::::::: When Hasbro actually comes out and says that the Thirteen are singularities and we see some actual mainstream fiction saying so--and Hasbro made the effort to explain that Zeta Prime was "Sentinel Zeta Prime", so we ''know'' they'll speak up when they actually do have problems--then I'll concede the point. Until then, all canon, official evidence, and authorial intent from the actual continuity writers, that I've seen is to the contrary, which is why the wiki's stance bugs me so much. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:41, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Jeysie, you do realize that when we're saying "Hasbro", we're basically saying "Forest Lee", right? The guy who wrote both the FunPub coimcs and bios dealing with the singularity thing, and is also Hasbro's bio-writer. And who answered the Q&A question about singularities. Lee saying it is "Hasbro" saying it. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:59, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::And again, FunPub's come out as saying their fiction doesn't apply to at least one universe. And 99.9% of the time we don't let toy bios override the actual fiction, so I'm not sure why this case is different.
:::::::::::::::To me "Hasbro saying it" equals someone like Archer, who deals with more than just a single company's continuity or toy blurbs that often don't match up with actual fiction anyway. The whole Sentinel/Zeta Prime thing, for instance, was (AFAIK, correct me if wrong) commented on by an overseeing Hasbro person, rather than by a writer who writes for a continuity entirely separate from WFC's. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:17, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::::::::Did Hasbro know that that was the author's intent? If they never specifically mentioned those ideas, Hasbro would not have known "to put their foot down". I don't know one way or the other, but that is an unspoken assumption in your argument that needs to be examined. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:07, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I find it hard to believe that they had no clue what someone like Isenberg was planning on doing with the fiction. Especially when they've been shown to be perfectly picky about any number of minor details in the fiction, so why would they fail to worry about major ones? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:17, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Contrary to what you think, Vector Sigma DOES exist in Animated continuity (even according to Wyatt!). Read A3's Animated page. It's there. If you're going to argue a point, at least research it first. - [[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 10:38, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Again, like I said, it's not the Thirteen specifically that's the problem, it's the singularity that's the problem. There's no issue with the Thirteen existing in a continuity (any more than any other character the writers want to have existing in a continuity), it's the idea that they're some singularity that has to exist always in the same way that's the sticking point.
:::::::::Vector Sigma can exist in Animated all he wants; that doesn't prove anything except that he exists and can travel between dimensions (which is true of plenty of characters who aren't Thirteen members or singularities, so that doesn't say much on its own). And heck, Animated Alpha Trion may even be part of the Animated Thirteen for all we know--he's just not a singularity as far as Animated is concerned. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:43, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::This is probably the one thing that confuses me about the Thirteen; are they singularities in the sense that Unicron is (there's only one, and they can travel between dimensions at will), or like how Primus is (there's only one, and they exist simultaneously at all times in every universe)? That writeup that Forest did is so quantumy that I can read it either way.

:::::::: IIRC, "A3 is one of the Thirteen" is originally a speculation (or, at least, not official) until the publication of ''Exodus''. Also, I think I agree with Jeysie's argument/point. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:48, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)



::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::: (COming in kinda late but...) I also vote on just waiting this out for a bit... It's not even that big of a deal if you ask me. Any author could just come along and make up an easy explanation to solve this problem. Even I can do it, watch: "Eons ago, A3 split himself from a singularity into a multitude of individuals to better understand non-singularity beings blah blah blah blah..." When you read mystery fiction, do you just flip out when something doesn't add up and confuses you? No, you keep on reading, and odds are by the end of the story, something comes up and makes you say "oh! It all makes sense now!" --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 12:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Yeah. Considering we're usually patient, I don't see a problem with just waiting until we get a clear idea of things. We can always just stick a message box at the top saying that we think they all need a merge, but we're waiting on the matter.
::::::::::(Heck, for all we know, it'll end up being canon that, like you say, he's actually a ''split'' singularity that's deliberately many separate individuals who are all part of the same, uh, personality gestalt. In which case merging might not make sense after all.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:14, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::If we stick a very clear, unambiguous message that these should probably be merged at the top of the pages I would have no problem with waiting a reasonable time period before merging. It should not be hidden down at the bottom in the notes though, we need to be out in the open with this. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:21, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

==Another perspective on Multiuniversal Singularities==
Is it absolutely, 100% set in stone that every version of a character who's referenced as a Multiversal Singularity is definitely the same guy? How about Megatronus? Megatron used to go by that name. If we REALLY follow the idea that every character sharing a name with a Multiuniversal Singularity is the same guy, then every Megatron is also the Fallen. Assuming no one hear actually takes that position, then we have precedent where there are two characters sharing a name, one of whom is a confirmed Multiuniversal Singularity, and the other of whom is not. Once we have one example, it logically follows that there might be more.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:15, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

:This makes perfect sense to me. Then again, pretty much every explanation people have come up with for, say, A3's status as an MS has made perfect sense to me, so..... --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:22, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::That actually is something that I've also considered. It ''would'' be a rather tidy "have your cake and eat it too" kind of explanation that undoes some of the thorniness of the matter. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:29, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

:::It makes sense to me, too. I really like "two characters sharing a name, one of whom is a confirmed Multiuniversal Singularity, and the other of whom is not." --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:25, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Singularity Ablyss

2010-06-29T03:19:29Z

173.71.105.23: /* Synopsis */

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=[[Transformers Legends]]
|prev=Fire in the Dark
|title="Singularity Ablyss"
|image=
|caption=
|publisher=[[ibooks]]
|date=[[November 30]], [[2004]]
|writer=[[Bob Skir|Robert N. Skir]]
|continuity=Beast Machines (Unique)
|pagecount=25
}}
'''Why ''Beast Machines''-era Megatron is frickin' ''hardcore''.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] finds himself floating in confusion, reflecting on the events which led to his attempt to purify [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] of the organic. As he streaks through the streets of [[Cybertropolis]], he has a brief encounter with something on the same plane as himself, before fleeing. He possesses a patchwork body and attacks [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] and [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] with it. After turning Blackarachnia's attack back against her, his body overloads, releasing his spark. He soon encounters the strange form again, and realises it is [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], the [[Maximal]] he had used to create [[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]].

Rhinox is to act as Megatron's guide on his final journey to the [[Allspark]], leaving the corporeal world behind. Megatron soon finds himself being led against his will to a higher plane, through metaphorical realms, the first of which are Splendor and Eternity. Though them, Megatron is able to perceive the whole of time and space, and the patterns that lie therein. Soon, Megatron finds himself in the [[technorganic orchard]], attacking [[Rattrap]] and [[Botanica]] until his spark is once again rejected by the [[Motorcycle Drone|cycle drone]] it was occupying.

Back in the incorporeal world, Rhinox guides Megatron through the realms of Beauty and Severity, the latter of which Rhinox defines as resolve and determination. They visit the sphere of Mercy, which Megatron finds difficult to grasp before he is pulled back to the physical world in the body of a [[Sonic Attack Jet|Jetstorm drone]]. In this form, he finds [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]] and [[Strika (BM)|Strika]] accepting [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]]'s offer to join them. Furious, he attacks them, fighting all four of them until his body again explodes.

Rhinox welcomes Megatron to the realms of Understanding and Wisdom. At the same time, Megatron sees his own spark knock Silverbolt out of the air and tangle with his ex-generals. He suddenly realises that the spiritual journey he is on is as real as the events on Cybertron. Rhinox is pleased with his pupil's final understanding, and they arrive at the Allspark; however, Megatron finds the idea of being absorbed and becoming a part of the whole distasteful. Aware of Rattrap struggling with a [[spark extractor]], Megatron realises that his spark must have become depolarized, and uses the knowledge of his physical state to annihilate Rhinox's spirit.

Though he expects to also be destroyed by the action, he finds himself back in the physical world, trapped in the body of a [[Diagnostic Drone]]. However now, with the knowledge he has gained from his spiritual journey, Megatron intends to assimilate the Allspark itself and become a god.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (2)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (3)
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] (4)
*[[Botanica]] (5)
*[[Rattrap]] (6)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (8)
*[[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] (9)

|h2=[[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s
|c2=
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (1)
*[[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]] (7)
*[[Strika (BM)|Strika]] (10)
*[[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]] (11)
}}

==Continuity==
Despite the statement in the foreword of ''Transformers Legends'', this story is written by the editor of ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', and can pretty much slot into the events of "[[Spark of Darkness]]", albeit not seamlessly. That said, we totally won't blame you if you want to completely [[Personal canon|disregard it]] and choose to believe Rhinox is still hanging around somewhere in the [[Allspark]].

==Notes==
* Though the scenes are laid out to tie in with "Spark of Darkness", there are some notable alterations:
** Rather than fleeing from the first zombie, Silverbolt assumes it's a revived Cybertronian and tries to reassure it. This encounter is substantially cut down from what was onscreen.
** The encounter with Rattrap and Botanica ends with Megatron's drone body exploding, whereas in the episode, it merely falls over.
** Strika gets some extra dialog where she asks the Jet drone who it is. Cheetor then tries to contact [[Optimus Primal|Optimus]] only to find the comm links are jammed.
** The sequence with the drone trying to drag Cheetor to his doom is gone.

* Jet drones are made of a polytitanium alloy and can travel at Mach six.
* The tour through the Transformer afterlife is based on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy Dante's Devine Comedy], a 14th-century epic poem detailing the Christian afterlife. Where Dante is led by Virgil and Beatrice, Megatron is led by Rhinox through several layers of the Matrix afterlife, which are parallels to the CIrcles of Heaven and Hell as detailed in Dante's Inferno, Purgatory and Paradise. Whereas in Dante's stories souls ascend to heaven insofar they 'love' God, Sparks ascend insofar they can share their self with the world around them, become part of the whole. Of course, Megatron misses the point by, instead of seeing how all of existence pulse in the same rhythm, he is of the opinion that all of existence pulses in HIS rhythm.

==Errors==
* Blackarachnia is consistently parsed as "Black Arachnia".
* Silverbolt is described as "angelically-winged", though his [[technorganic]] body's robot mode doesn't possess wings.
* Nightscream is described as having "taser fangs" which deliver a shock, which is inconsistent with their use on the show to drain energy.

[[Category:Text stories]]

Bumblebee at Tyger Pax

2010-06-29T01:25:15Z

173.71.105.23: /* Transformer references */

{{Comicstory
|seriesissue=[[Transformers: War for Cybertron|War for Cybertron]]
|prev=
|next=
|image=
|caption=
|title="Bumblebee at Tyger Pax"
|publisher=[[MTV Movies Blog]] (online exclusive)
|date=[[June 22]], [[2010]]
|written by=[[Alex Irvine]]
|pagecount=
|continuity=[[Transformers: War for Cybertron|War for Cybertron]]
}}
'''Learn how Bumblebee lost his voice! Also, Optimus does stuff.'''
{{Template:Apocrypha}}
==Synopsis==

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (1)
*[[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]] (2)
*[[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (3)
*[[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (4)
*[[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (5)
*[[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] (6)
*[[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (7)
*[[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (8)
*[[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (9)
*[[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] (10)
*[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus]] (13)
*[[Springer (G1)|Springer]] (14)
|c2=
*[[Barricade (G1)|Barricade]] (11)
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (12)
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (15)
}}
==Quotes==

==Notes==
*''Cameos'': Unnamed data clerks, [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]]s, and [[Wrecker]]s.
*Ultra Magnus leads the Wreckers. Rodimus and Springer are members.
===Errors===

===Transformer references===
*''Locations'': [[Hall of Records]], [[Iacon (city-state)|Iacon]], [[Kalis]], [[Well of All Sparks|Well of AllSparks]], [[Six Lasers Over Cybertron]], [[Nova Cronum]], [[Tagan Heights]], [[Tyger Pax]]
*[[Covenant of Primus]]
*[[Autobot High Council]]
*The basic plot, involving Bumblebee losing his voice to Megatron during the battle at Tyger Pax in which the Autobots launch the AllSpark into space, is similar to [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] continuity stories from [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1}} {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===Real-world references===

==External links==
* [http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2010/06/22/exclusive-learn-how-bumblebee-lost-his-voice-in-this-short-story-from-exodus-author-alex-irvine/ '''Bumblebee at Tyger Pax''' at MTV.com]

{{stub}}
[[Category:Text stories]]

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T02:53:01Z

173.71.105.23: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is.

Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Zeta Prime (G1)

2010-06-28T02:22:58Z

173.71.105.23:

==Coming Soon?==
I hardly think it's inappropriate to fill in Zeta's status as revealed in the WFC level demo shown at Toy Fair. It was officially made public like 6 weeks ago. It's a spoiler, but it's not stolen. Anybody disagree? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:20, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

So HAsbro at Botcon says Sentinel Prime and Zeta Prime are the same character. His name is Sentinel Zeta Prime. Merger needed? --[[Special:Contributions/99.97.30.142|99.97.30.142]] 15:11, 26 June 2010 (EDT)

That was specifically for War for Cybertron AFAIK but Nexus Prime/Maximus shows Hasbro doesn't mess around with "Prime's" so even if IDW intended Zeta Prime to be distinct he's probably not. I'd agree with a merger. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 02:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Yup let's merge it, he even looks like idw's Sentinel Prime. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 07:20, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I would rather we left this as it is. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:59, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Justification? I mean if Hasbro says they're the same guy... --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 08:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Hasbro also considers [[Sea Spray]] and [[Seaspray (G1)|Seaspray]] the same guy, and any version of Optimus Prime as the same guy, and any version of Jazz as the same guy, etc. They don't seem to consider much difference between "same character archetype"/"same character inspiration"/"similar character different continuity" and "same character period". I'd say unless we get fiction that firmly establishes this... we should ignore it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:21, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::I think that before any talk about merging these two or not, we should be having a discussion whether or not WfC is its own continuity family or a version of G1. WFC Sentinel and Zeta could be (somewhat) the same person as Hasbro says, G1 Zeta and Sentinel (for now, and at least some versions permanently) not. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:07, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::I think we might have to wait on this one and see how TF: Prime pans out. Activision seems to think WfC is a G1 prequel, but Hasbro's been going on about how Exodus and WfC are the beginnings of a new continuity. If Prime really does flow out of those two and ends up being divergent enough that it can form its own universal stream rather than being some sort of upgraded G1 or pseudo-movieverse, then by default WfC and Exodus should be tossed into whatever that continuity family is, no matter how G1ish WfC is.

Help:Coming soon

2010-06-27T20:33:17Z

173.71.105.23: /* "Unofficial" releases */

Though {{SITENAME_SHORT}} strives to constantly update its pages with as much information as possible, there are instances where we purposely ''do not'' update an article or section as soon as information becomes known, out of a matter of respect to official parties.

{{note|Yeah, we know. Respect? Who'd a-thunk it?}}

{{TOC}}

=="Unofficial" releases==
Originally, this policy was put into effect prior to the release of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action Transformers movie]], in response to all of the leaked information on it that had not come through any official channel. Since an ''incredible'' amount of early "information" on that project was rumor, hearsay, based on unfinished concept work, and so on, this wiki's policy was to feature '''only''' information on the movie that had come through official channels in order to cut back on the amount of misinformation being spread.

Which is a bit like spitting at the ocean, but it's the principle of the thing.

However, this template is also applied ''currently'' in reference to unofficial information and unreleased, unannounced toys that have appeared on eBay for ''any'' series. For example, if [[Hasbro]] announces that the next series will be ''Transformers Chunky Style'' but offers no other information, then while a "Chunky Style" page may be created, any leaked toys or secondhand friend-of-the-janitor-at-[[Cartoon Network|Cartoon-Network]] information tidbits should ''not'' be included, and the <nowiki>{{Coming soon|unreleased}}</nowiki> template should be added.

Currently, '''''[[Transformers: Prime]]''''' is the series that will see the most use of this template.

{{-}}

==Fun Publications Fan Club material==
The [[Fun Publications]] [[Official Transformers Collectors' Club]] produces original fiction and character bios as part of its content, which is distributed via a paid subscription service. As this is a ''major'' source of income for the Club, they are understandably not keen on people distributing such material for free.

Material unique to the Club publications and online content should remain "off-limits" for wiki updating for at least '''one month (30 days)''' following its release. Since magazine propagation through the mail can vary, not to mention the different mailing-speed options, ideally information should wait one month after the "normal" mail members start receiving their magazines. Pages based on Club-original stories or characters may be set up immediately if you wish, but their contents should remain practically empty, include a <nowiki>{{coming soon|fanclub}}</nowiki> template, and be marked as a <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki>.

{{-}}
==Templates==
The following templates have been provided to mark articles or sections where information is being intentionally withheld for the sake of politeness/respect:

* [[Template:Coming soon]]

* [[Template:Comingsoontoy]]

[[Category: Help]]

Talk:Tyger Pax

2010-06-27T03:05:37Z

173.71.105.23: /* Bumblebee at Tyger Pax */

could it be possible that tyger pax is the location on cybertron for the cybertron levels on the console games?

==Move?==
Since there's a Tyger Pax treaty or whatever from The War Within, shouldn't we move this to 'Tyger Pax (city)' or something? Many of the War Within articles or sections link to this page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
:I don't see a need to move if we just make this a continuity-neutral page. Move the current content to the Fiction->2007 Movie section and start up a Dreamwave G1 section. After all, the War Within treaty was so named because it was ''signed'' at Tyger Pax.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, I never read any of the Dreamwave comics beyond the first mini-series, so I was unaware. Anyway, it's done, set up for somebody to write about the War Within appearance. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

==Bumblebee at Tyger Pax==
Anyone know if this is considered canon? It's not part of the Exodus book, and as far as I can tell it can only be found in an MTV blog post without any sort of Hasbro copyright claims...

:If WHAT is considered canon?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 22:13, 26 June 2010 (EDT)
::http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2010/06/22/exclusive-learn-how-bumblebee-lost-his-voice-in-this-short-story-from-exodus-author-alex-irvine/ This

Talk:Tyger Pax

2010-06-27T01:26:48Z

173.71.105.23:

Talk:Lugnut (Animated)

2010-06-23T22:36:05Z

173.71.105.23:

It's really Lugnut, and not Lugnutz? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 12:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
*Yes. --[[User:Hepathos|Hepathos]] 17:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

== Cleveland ==

18:58, May 3, 2008 (Undecided) (Talk | contribs) m (9,711 bytes) (Removed "Cleveland" link. I doubt that page will be filled anytime soon.) (undo)

19:03, May 3, 2008 SFH (Talk | contribs) (9,715 bytes) (Undo revision 181391 by (Undecided) (talk) Spike and family lived there in DW, so it's not just here.)

Fair enough, though there really isn't much to say about Cleveland and it's still an ugly broken link right now. [[User:(Undecided)|(Undecided)]] 02:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

:Red links exist so that SOMEONE WILL MAKE THE PAGE. Also, please use the Preview button before saving your changes. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]]

== Future lugnuts ==
Should we move this lugnut to Lugnut (Animated) incase of any future lugnuts. [[User:Mr. Serious|Mr. Serious]] 16:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
:If a future franchise should use "Lugnut", then we will. Until then, it's not neccessary. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

==Captions and General Wording==
Personally, we need to make fun of the way Lugnut is so loyal, by inserting the word 'glorious' more often. [[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 14:12, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

== Why is this page written as if Lugnut is an idiot? ==

Lugnut's a '''zealot''', not an idiot. He's shown enough times that he has a functioning processor when he cares to use it, he just lets his Megatronphilia override it much of the time.

Anyone care to try a rewrite on some of those bits. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:33, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== Disambig the New Guy ==

Question: How should we disambig the new "G1" Lugnut and Barricade that appeared in TF:Exodus? Should they be (WfC like Demolishor, even though they don't appear in the game? Or maybe (Exo)? Or Just G1? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 18:11, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
Considering this is all supposed to be the backstory to the TF: Prime show, it will probably end up being considered part of that universe.

Japanese Generation 1 cartoon timeline

2010-06-20T19:51:45Z

173.71.105.23: /* 3 million years ago */

{{picsneeded}}
A translation of two official Japanese timelines for the events of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] animated universe, incorporating the original Japanese series, ''[[Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'', ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]]'', ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'', ''[[Micromaster Collection]]'', ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'', ''[[Binaltech]]'', ''[[Binaltech Asterisk]]'', ''[[Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]'' continuities and more. Along with linking existing events from these series the timelines also recorded several new events and retconned several others to make all the material fit (roughly) together.

Prepare for a headache.

Unless otherwise indicated, names used are English versions.

{{Messagebox|image_name=Ravage_casette.png
|image_width=80px
|mouseover=Now you know what Japan feels like when we introduced The One via guidebooks. Not a very nice feeling, is it?
|message_text=In 2006-07 [[TakaraTomy]] produced two extensive chronologies of [[Generation 1]] which merged many new elements from the last decade into a single timeline that is significantly different from the [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline|American]] version of events. 

A translation of those 2006-07 chronologies can be found '''[[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)/src|here]]'''.
}}

==15,000,000,000 years ago==
[[Image:Z01 zoodiaku.jpg|right|thumb]]
* The Big Bang. The universe is born through the power of [[Zodiac]].<ref>''[[Zone (franchise)|Zone]]''</ref>
{{-}}

==12,000,000,000 years ago==

* The galaxy is born. The alien scientist [[Primacron]] is born.

* Primacron creates a sentient, planet-sized robot life form called [[Unicron]] that feeds on mechanical planets and robot life forms, but it rebels against him. Primacron is injured. Primacron's Assistant, [[Oracle (G1)|Oracle]], flees.<ref name="primitives">"[[Call of the Primitives]]"</ref>
[[Image:Oracle COTP thumb.gif|right|thumb]]
* Oracle reaches a desolate planet in the center of the galaxy and changes it into a verdant world.

* Oracle senses that in the far future, Primacron will create [[Tornedron]], which can absorb all energy. Oracle summons [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] and other beast [[Transformer|Transformers]] from the future to tell them how to destroy the threat.<ref name="primitives">"[[Call of the Primitives]]"</ref>

{{note|In its original English and Japanese versions, the events of this episode do not suggest any time travel to have occurred, but the new merged Japanese timeline retconned it in to prevent a conflict with the new idea that the Oracle has become Vector Sigma by the modern day.}}

* The [[Quintesson|Quintessons]] immigrate to Oracle's green planet. They obtain Oracle's shell, the [[Matrix]]. Oracle, who has the ability to give robots life, is turned into the ultra computer [[Vector Sigma]]. His safety key has the power to make organic life into machines, and is used by the Quintessons to transform his world into the machine planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]].<ref>Combination of facts from "[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1]]", "[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2]]", and "[[Five Faces of Darkness]]".</ref>

* The Quintessons attempt to create [[Trans-Organic|Trans-Organics]] as a fusion between robotic and organic life, but fail and seal them up deep within the planet.<ref name="dweller">"[[The Dweller in the Depths]]"</ref>

* The Quintessons mass-produce civilian and military robot life forms, the ancestors of the [[Autobot|Autobots]] and [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], as slaves. The first of these is named [[Alpha Trion (G1)|A3]].<ref name="ffod4">"[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4]]"</ref>

==11 million years ago==
* The intelligent robots of Cybertron develop emotions and revolt, with A-3 as their leader. They chase the Quintessons from the planet. The [[Golden Age]] of Cybertron arrives.<ref name="ffod4" />

* The military Decepticons (who desire dictatorship) and civilian Autobots (who are against it) war against each other.<ref name="ffod4" />

* The Autobots, who lack combat capabilities, are massacred. Many flee their home planet.<ref name="ffod4" />

* The Matrix is passed on as a symbol of Autobot leadership. The holders' memory and wisdom are collected within it.<ref name="ffod4" />

* In order to fight the Decepticons, the Autobots develop the technology to transform their bodies. However, several centuries later, the Decepticons gain the same technology. This is the birth of the [[Transformer|Transformers]].<ref name="ffod4" />

* The scientists [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] and [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] visit [[Earth]] for research purposes. Skyfire crashes into the Arctic and goes missing.<ref name="fireinthesky">"[[Fire in the Sky]]"</ref>

==9 million years ago==
[[Image:Megatronffod.jpg|right|thumb]]
* Deep within Cybertron, the [[Emperor of Destruction]] [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] is created and becomes leader of the Decepticons.<ref name="ffod4" />

* Megatron kills the Autobot leader. The Matrix is guarded by the elder Alpha Trion (formerly A-3).<ref name="ffod4" />

* Cargo hauler [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Orion Pax]] is badly injured by Megatron and, through Alpha Trion's aid, is reborn as Commander [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], bearer of the Matrix.<ref name="wardawn">"[[War Dawn]]"</ref>

* War breaks out between Megatron's Decepticons and Prime's Autobots.<ref name="wardawn"/>

* Megatron uses the brainwashing machine [[Robo-Smasher]] to bolster his ranks. Its victims include the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] and [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]].<ref name="tsoos-6">"[[The Secret of Omega Supreme]]"</ref>

* As the war intensifies, civilians who lack transformation abilities ([[Cyberdroid]]s) flee, searching for a new home. <ref>"[[Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2]]"</ref> These include the immigrants to Planet [[Paradron]] in the Fourth [[Great War (G1)|Great War]].<ref>"[[Fight or Flee]]"</ref>

==The ancient past==
[[Image:PlagueInsecticons Insecticon lair.jpg|right|thumb]]
* God Messenger ([[Devil Z]]) and [[Godmaster]] come to Earth. Godmaster breaks into 8 pieces and falls into a deep sleep.<ref>"[[A Strange Friendship: Cancer and Minerva]]"</ref>

* The independent Decepticon team called the [[Insecticon (G1)|Insecticons]] arrives on Earth and decides to live there permanently, using food and elements as their fuel.<ref name="apoi">"[[A Plague of Insecticons]]"</ref>
{{--}}

==4 million years ago==
* A group of Transformers led by [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress]] escape Cybertron in search of a new haven. They travel to the desolate planet [[Master (planet)|Master]].<ref>"[[The Mystery of Planet Master]]"</ref>

* The starship [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]], which has been traveling through time, crashes on planet Master. Fortress uses it to refine his [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] theory and builds the massive [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Battleship Maximus]].<ref>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players radio drama #48]]''</ref>

* The resources on Cybertron dry up. An Autobot space exploration team aboard the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] led by Optimus Prime and their Decepticon pursuers aboard the [[Nemesis (G1)|Nemesis]], led by Megatron, are pulled in by the planet [[Earth]]'s gravity and crash. The Transformers enter a long period of [[stasis lock]].<ref name="mtmte1">"[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1]]"</ref>

==3 million years ago==
* Next-generation Autobots and Decepticons ([[Maximal|Maximals]] and [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]) come from the future via [[Transwarp]] and scan the animals of Earth in order to transform into them. The [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] begin.<ref name="bw1">"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)]]"</ref><ref name="bw2">"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)]]"</ref>

* The immortal life force of Starscream, who died in the future of 2005, crosses time and space to reach Earth. He possesses a [[Waspinator (BW)|Predacon]] and attempts to take over, but fails. He returns to being a ghost and vanishes into the far reaches of time and space.<ref name="possession">"[[Possession]]"</ref>

* Autobots and Decepticons traverse dimensions and battle the Beast Warriors.<ref>''[[Beast Wars Diorama Story]]''</ref>

{{note|While the factions are traditionally called 'Cybertrons' and 'Destrons' in Japan, these dimensional travelers are explicitly identified as Autobots and Decepticons, names that have only been used in Japan for the [[Transformers (2007)|2007 movie]].}}

* A dimensional fissure, the [[Blasty Zone]], forms. [[Optimus Primal]] and the Predacon [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] are transported to the year [[Robot Masters (franchise)|2004]].<ref name="battlebegins">"[[The New Battle Begins!]]"</ref><ref name="strongestcommand">"[[Fight! The Group of the Strongest Commanders!]]"</ref><ref name=rm1>"[[Robot Masters (online comic)#Issue 1|Clash of the Two Leaders]]"</ref><ref name=rm3>"[[Robot Masters (online comic)#Issue 3|Optimus Primal Enters the War!]]</ref>

* Due to the Maximals' and Predacons' interference in the [[Vok]] experiment on Earth, the Vok begin to terraform the planet. Optimus Primal sacrifices his life to stop this. As a result, Earth loses its second, mechanical moon, and a [[quantum surge]] is generated.<ref name="othervoices1">"[[Other Voices, Part 1]]"</ref><ref name="othervoices2">"[[Other Voices, Part 2]]"</ref>

* Humanity's ancestors are born. The Maximals assist in their evolution.<ref name="codeofhero">"[[Code of Hero]]"</ref>

* [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] is sent from the future to kill everyone. He captures the Predacon Megatron, but fails in his mission and is destroyed.<ref name="agenda1">"[[The Agenda (Part 1)]]"</ref><ref name="agenda2">"[[The Agenda (Part 2)]]"</ref><ref name="agenda3">"[[The Agenda (Part III)]]"</ref>

* In the volcano later to be known as [[Mount St. Hilary]], the Predacon Megatron unearths the Ark and attacks the original Optimus Prime in an attempt to change history. As a result, a [[Time Storm]] occurs, but Optimus Primal stops it.<ref name="agenda3" /><ref name="optimalsituation">"[[Optimal Situation]]"</ref>

* The Maximals capture the Predacon Megatron and return to the future.<ref>"[[Nemesis Part 2]]"</ref>

==Several million years ago==
* The [[Sparkbot|Sparkbots]] travel back from 2007 and attempt to release Unicron's [[Angolmois]] energy, which was scattered in 2005. They are followed by [[Primus]] (a.k.a. Oracle), who seals them and the energy inside the Earth. He creates [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]] to stand guard and devises several layers of safeguards to control Maximus' activation.<ref name=kp51>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players radio drama #51]]</ref>

==500,000 years ago==
* The Decepticon [[Deathsaurus (Victory)|Deathsaurus]] uses a giant fortress in his quest to become the next Emperor, but the young Autobot [[Star Saber (G1)|Star Saber]] and others seal it up in the gravity well of the [[Dark Nebula]].<ref>"[[Resurrection!? The Decepticon Fortress]]"</ref>

==Several thousand years ago==
* The Stone Age.

* The Headmaster [[Grand Maximus|Grand]] of Planet Master meets up with the Autobot [[Pretender]]s. After a battle with the Decepticon Pretenders, they crash on Earth and take the form of [[Human|humans]]. <ref>"[[Rise Up!! Pretenders]]"</ref> They seal up the Decepticon Pretenders, who have taken the form of demons, in a pyramid in Egypt, the Nasca Lines in Peru, and the undersea city of [[Atlantis]].<ref>"[[Terror! The Decepticons' Manhunt]]"</ref>

* A team of Autobots from the future come to Earth to activate [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]], but their spaceship crashes on [[Castle Peak]]. Later, this becomes the basis for human legends of U.F.O.s.<ref name="thedecepticons">"[[The Decepticons]]"</ref>

* The energy life form [[Devil Z]] steals the [[Godmaster]]s' [[Transtector]]s from the [[G Nebula]] and brings them to Earth. He falls into a deep sleep. Among the Transtectors he has stolen is one created for Optimus Prime.<ref>"[[Shūta and Grand's Masterforce Super-Secrets!]]"</ref>

{{note|The above point contradicts the earlier account of Devil Z as the "God Messenger" and the Godmasters originating as a singular being known as "Godmaster." The earlier account is the one used in the animated series itself, but was later apparently retconned, replaced with the version of the story noted here. This version appeared in the later timeline and may be assumed to take precedence in canon.}}

==543==
* A human from the future year of 1985 and several Autobots and Decepticons including Starscream arrive through a time-space transportation system left in an ancient ruin on Earth. They are drawn into a territorial battle, but with the assistance of an old man claiming to be a wizard, they return to their original era.<ref name="adrikac">"[[A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court]]"</ref>

==14th Century==
* Humanity unearths a spaceship that crashed on Earth several million years before, and discovers a Cybertronian weather control unit called the [[Power Core]]. The Power Core's activation causes a great disaster, but the King of Persia seals it inside a golden shell. Renamed the [[Pearl of Bahoudin]] ''("Jehudin" in Japan)'', it is buried in the ground once more.<ref name="transeurope">"[[Trans-Europe Express]]"</ref>

==Early 1980s==
* The Great War on Cybertron settles down. A team of [[Cyberdroid]]s comes from Cybertron to look for Optimus Prime or the Matrix that he holds. A dimensional shockwave causes them to gain transformation abilities as [[Micromaster|Micromasters]] and travel to Earth. As a side effect of the shockwave, some become Decepticons.<ref>"[[Micromaster Collection#Part 1: A New Transformer Legend Begins!!|A New Transformer Legend Begins!!]]"</ref>

* The divided Micromasters begin a conflict on Earth. The Autobots unearth a fragment of Cybertronian metal and a Predacon emblem in Mount St. Hilary. They set up [[Metrobase]] to protect the site.<ref>"[[Micromaster Collection#Part 5: Sixtrain! Activate Red Mode!!|Sixtrain! Activate Red Mode!!]]"</ref>

* The Autobot Micromasters find a pod in the ground. A plasma released from the pod opens a dimensional rift and [[Multiforce]] arrives from the future.<ref>"[[Micromaster Collection#Part 6: The Menace of Landcross's Combining Formation!|The Menace of Landcross's Combining Formation!]]"</ref>

{{note|No further explanation as to what happened to the Micromasters and Multiforce afterwards is provided.}}

==1985==
* The eruption of Mount St. Hilary activates [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]] after 4 million years. Teletraan I awakens and repairs the sleeping Autobots and Decepticons, making them resemble the machines of Earth. The restored Megatron leads his forces to concentrate [[Energon Cube|energy]] and send it back to their homeworld. Optimus Prime opposes this, and a conflict arises, sweeping humans into the battle.<ref name="mtmte1" /><ref name="mtmte2>"[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 2]]"</ref><ref name="mtmte3">"[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 3]]"</ref>

* The Decepticon Air Commander Starscream unearths his old friend Skyfire from the polar ice. Even as Skyfire is reborn, they come into conflict and Skyfire joins the Autobots.<ref name="fireinthesky" />

* Megatron makes a deal with the human scientist [[Doctor Arkeville]] and uses the [[Hypno-chip|hypno-chip]] that Arkeville has developed to brainwash and enslave many humans. Megatron uses them to construct a large [[Space Bridge]] and pulls Cybertron into Earth orbit. The gravitational pull causes major disasters on Earth, but he is stopped by Optimus Prime and the Autobots.<ref name="ultimatedoom1">"[[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]]"</ref><ref name="ultimatedoom2">"[[The Ultimate Doom, Part 2]]"</ref><ref name="ultimatedoom3">"[[The Ultimate Doom, Part 3]]"</ref>

* [[Doctor Fujiyama]] creates the robot [[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]]. Due to Decepticon tampering, she goes berserk and is sealed up, but is considered a major step in the history of Earth-made robots.<ref name="nightbird">"[[Enter the Nightbird]]"</ref>

* Starscream manipulates a time and space transportation system left in an ancient ruin on Earth and is transported to [[Europe]] in the year 543. He returns along with the Autobots who followed him.<ref name="adrikac" />

* In order to bolster the ranks of the outnumbered Autobots, Alpha Trion becomes the activation key for Vector Sigma and merges with it.<ref name="tktvs2">"[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2]]"</ref>

* The Autobot [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]], created by Vector Sigma, are transported by Decepticon Defense Commander [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]'s time machine to the Cybertron of 9 million years before. There, they assist in the birth of Optimus Prime and return.<ref name="wardawn" />

* Three [[United States of America|American]] students create the robot [[B.O.T. (robot)|B.O.T.]]. Because they used the [[personality component]] of the Decepticon [[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]], it goes berserk.<ref name="bot">"[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]]"</ref>

* Megatron tampers with the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden Disk]] aboard the planetary exploration machine Voyager that was launched in 1977 and gives directions for changing history and destroying Optimus Prime on the Ark in the past if the Decepticons lose the war in the future.<ref name="agenda2" />

==Latter 1980s==
* The [[Scramble City]] plan is activated through cooperation between Autobots and humans.<ref>[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers issue 2|''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers'' #2]]</ref> The giant city robot [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] is completed. The Decepticons build [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]].<ref name="scramblecity">''[[Scramble City]]''</ref>

==Early 1990s==
* In the [[United States of America]], an expert [[G.I. Joe (team)|team]] including [[Flint (G.I. Joe)|D.R. Faireborn]] is formed to combat a massive [[Cobra|international terrorist organization]] led by the man who would later be known as [[Cobra Commander|Snake]].

* The Chinese restaurant run by [[Shaoshao Li]]'s parents moves to [[New York City|New York]]. Shaoshao spends many lonely days there until she meets the young [[Marissa Faireborn]].<ref name=kp23>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|''Kiss Players'' radio drama #23]]</ref>
==1996==
* During one of D.R. Faireborn's missions, he and his daughter Marissa are saved by Optimus Prime. From then onwards, Marissa is increasingly involved with Prime and the other Autobots. However, Shaoshao, who feels that her only ally has been taken away from her by Prime, begins to mistrust all Transformers.<ref>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|''Kiss Players'' radio drama #34]]</ref>

* Shaoshao's parents relocate their restaurant to [[Japan]]. Shaoshao is forced to leave without ever reaching an understanding with Marissa or Prime.<ref name="kp23"/>

==Latter 1990s==
* The U.S. government officially announces their intent to coexist with the Autobots, the existence of Decepticons, and their intention to join in the battle.<ref name=firstcontact>"[[First Contact]]"</ref>

* The U.S. army works with the Autobots to develop and produce the military strategy robot [[C-X]]. However, Starscream's ghost, which has come from the future, tampers with it. It goes berserk and is destroyed.<ref>"[[Divided Views]]"</ref>

* The Japanese government makes a deal with the Decepticons, agreeing to allow them to gather energy in exchange for Japan's safety. However, [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] and [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] cause an artificial earthquake, leading to mass casualties.<ref>"[[Activation]]"</ref>

* The humans and Autobots work together to develop the interstellar teleportation gate known as the [[Warp Gate|Trigger]].<ref name=firstcontact/>

* [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] fuses with the Trigger. He attempts a coup, but is defeated by Optimus Prime and Megatron. In the battle, many on both sides are badly damaged, and Prime and Megatron go missing.<ref>"[[The Stargate Battles (issue)|The Stargate Battles]]"</ref>

==2000==
* An elite team of large [[Megatron (RID)|Predacons]] ''(a.k.a. "Destrongers")'' from the future cross the dimensions to Earth.<ref name="battleprotocol">"[[Battle Protocol!|Battle Protocol]]"</ref> They attempt to control [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]], who was left on Earth several million years before. They are opposed by an Autobot [[Dimensional Patrol Team]] from the future, led by a new [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]]. The Autobots secretly construct a Space Bridge and remain undercover. The Dimensional Patrol Team is made up of new-generation Transformers, including the [[Spy Changers]], who were born from the addition of the [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]].

* The Autobot space ship that had crashed on [[Castle Peak|Angel Mountain]] several millennia ago is unearthed by the Predacons. Its crew are reformatted into Decepticons.<ref name="thedecepticons" />

* The Autobots activate Fortress Maximus. Borrowing Maximus's power, Prime defeats the leader of the Predacons and Decepticons, [[Megatron (RID)|Galvatron]].<ref name="finalbattle">"[[The Final Battle (RID)|The Final Battle]]"</ref>

==2003==
{{note|Beginning with this year, the timeline splits in two with the commencement of the ''[[Story of Binaltech]]''. This story involves some degree of complicated time- and space-bending, resulting in the creation of a parallel universe that branches off from the mainstream one. Precisely how many events occur in the mainstream timeline when all is said and done is unclear; as such, this timeline will list all events exclusive to the Binaltech story under sub-headings labelled "200Xb".}}

* On Earth, with the help of Autobot ambassador [[Crosscut (Autobot)|Crosscut]], construction begins on [[Autobot City]], which uses [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]] as its core. The [[Earth Defense Command]] (E.D.C.) is created with humans and Autobots working together.

* The members of the Autobot Dimensional Patrol Team that remained on Earth sense a new threat and upgrade the Spy Changer team to [[Super Mode]].<ref>Super Spy Changers catalog</ref>

* The Autobots sense that Megatron is preparing for a war to take over Cybertron. They prepare by moving most of their forces from Earth to Cybertron.

===2003b===

* Using the [[Cosmic Rust (disease)|Cosmic Rust]] virus, the Decepticons sabotage the Autobot forces, causing massive damage. The E.D.C., having lost most of their defenses, activate the [[Binaltech]] Project, a plan to create man-made Transformers.<ref>[[Story of Binaltech, Chapter 1]]</ref>

==2004==

* The Autobots use the element [[Solitarium]] to continue construction of Scramble City. They rewrite [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]] (a.k.a. [[Cybertron Base]])'s central systems accordingly.

* Dimensional fissures called the [[Blasty Zone]] appear, and Transformers from various eras are transported to the year 2004. The Predacon Megatron arrives and defeats Starscream, taking over command of the Decepticons on Earth. <ref name=robotmasters>''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]''</ref>

* Optimus Prime and the other Autobots on Earth are attacked by the Decepticons led by the Predacon Megatron. Prime remembers having met a future Transformer aboard the Ark 3 million years before. A timestorm occurs, and Optimus Primal is summoned from prehistoric Earth.<ref name="battlebegins"/><ref name="strongestcommand"/><ref name=rm1/><ref name=rm3/>

* [[Star Saber (G1)|Star Saber]] and [[Victory Leo]] arrive from the future, having pursued the Strong Attack Captain Decepticon [[Gigant Bomb]], who came through the Blasty Zone. <ref name=victorywarriorsenter>"[[The Victory Warriors Enter!!]]"</ref>

===2004b===
* Megatron begins the war to take over Cybertron. The Autobots cannot send reinforcements to Earth. The Binaltech warriors born on Earth are very effective. The E.D.C. and Autobots, working together, remove the Decepticons from the solar system.<ref>"[[Binaltech Is...]]"</ref>

* Through an introduction by Dr. Arkeville, the Decepticon Earth Attack Commander Starscream allies with a secret organization, the [[Concurrence]], made up of dangerous elements on Earth. Using advanced brainwashing techniques, they brainwash humans and take over several industrial cities across the world, creating Binaltech Decepticons.<ref>"[[Arise! Evil Binaltechs]]"</ref>

* In order to bolster their ranks on [[Earth]], the Autobots develop the [[GT System]], which creates same-personality duplicates. However, its side effects are unknown.<ref>"[[GT Units Online!]]"</ref>

* Under the E.D.C.'s leadership, a replica [[Zoom-Zoom|automaton]] with artificial intelligence is created in Japan. This is the birth of man-made Transformers.<ref name=opcarwash>"[[Operation: Carwash]]"</ref>

* In order to find the truth about the "Bad Production Incident" that created the Binaltech Decepticons, an expert team led by D.R. Faireborn works with Autobots including [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] to enact [[Operation: Carwash]].<ref name=opcarwash/>

==2005==
* [[Lio Convoy]] comes through the Bloody Zone ''(possibly a typo for [[Blasty Zone]])'' from a future in which humans are extinct on Earth. <ref name=liotyphoon>"[[The Lio Convoy Typhoon Enters (episode)|The Lio Convoy Typhoon Enters]]"</ref>

* Ravage from another point in the future makes contact with [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]] in order to use the Transformers' "[[Bio]] and [[Tech Spec]]" data to manipulate the timestream and create a future without needless battles. He is stopped by the humanoid computer Mobile [[Teletraan 15]], who has traveled back in time from 2007. As a result, Teletraan I is damaged and the data is lost.<ref>"[[15 Go! Go!]]" 15's Chapter</ref>

* In order to regain the lost data, Ravage takes on the identity of "Black Panther Man" and infiltrates the Autobots. He instructs the Teletraan 15 of 2005 to travel to different eras via [[Transwarp]] and creates an Information Control Center based on the record satellite [[Nana]].<ref>"[[15 Go! Go!]]" Chapter </ref>

* Megatron, who has been missing, is reborn as Rebirth Megatron through the black hole connection system possessed by the [[Reverse Convoy]] of planet [[Vehicon (planet)|Vehicon]]. <ref name=robotmasters/>

* Injured in the battle over solitarium, Optimus Prime gains the power of the [[Energon Matrix]] possessed by the many Prime-type warriors gathered from different eras. He rids Earth of Decepticons. The Autobots use the last of the solitarium to return the time-lost Autobots and the captured Decepticons to their original eras. <ref name=robotmasters/>

* [[Unicron]] the Great Devourer appears and the [[Unicron War]] begins. Optimus Prime dies in battle, the heavily-wounded Megatron is reborn as [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] through the power of Unicron, and Starscream is executed by Galvatron.<ref name="tftm">''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''</ref>

* The Matrix is passed on to the new Autobot leader, [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], and the young Autobot [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] releases its power, maturing into [[Rodimus Prime (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] and becoming the Autobots' new leader. He throws Galvatron toward Planet [[Thrull]] and lights the darkness, destroying Unicron.<ref name="tftm" /> But the [[Angolmois]] energy within Unicron traverses time and space and parasitizes Autobot leaders from various time periods. Unicron's servants, the [[Sparkbot|Sparkbots]], secretly alter Galvatron's trajectory so that he will land on Earth.<ref name=kp51/>

* Galvatron crashes on Earth, creating a historically unparalleled disaster and transforming Tokyo into a sea of fire. His cells are scattered, and the Unicron cells within them multiply using humans and machines as their hosts. The machines become [[Legion]] and the biological organisms (humans) become [[Kiss Player|Kiss Players]].<ref name="kissplayers">''[[Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]'' backstory</ref>

* Due to the disaster, humans begin to see Transformers as an enemy, with anti-Transformers sentiment centering on Japan. To combat this, key aid groups and Autobots work on rescue operations in Tokyo. Among them is a [[Pepsi Convoy|sentient metallic being]] who takes on the form of an Autobot to soothe the thirst of the people of Japan. <ref>Pepsi Convoy bio</ref>

* Despite the Autobots' best efforts, the Japanese people's anti-Transformers sentiment continues unabated and spreads throughout the world. Eventually, the Tokyo E.D.C. is at the center of a movement to force Transformers off the Earth. <ref name="kissplayers" />There are some who believe that the Concurrence is behind this sudden change in direction, but it is not known for certain.

* The E.D.C. summons Kiss Players from across the country and begins to remove Cybertronians using white artificial Transformers called [[Autorooper]]s.<ref name="kissplayers" />

* The E.D.C. develops an [[Anti-electron|anti-electron]] field that greatly lowers the life functions of Cybertronians and covers the planet with it, thus driving all remaining Transformers off the Earth.<ref name="kissplayers" />

* [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]], devastated by the thought that his actions caused humanity and Transformers to go to war with each other, returns both the Matrix and the title of Commander to Ultra Magnus and becomes Hot Rod once more.<ref>"[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|A Big Catch Tonight?!]]"</ref>

* Some civilians oppose the unilateral actions of the E.D.C. to remove the Transformers and form a resistance movement. Marissa Faireborn is seen among them.<ref name="kissplayers" />

===2005b===
* The remaining members of the disbanded American intelligence agency [[Intelligence and Information Institute|Triple-I]] succeed in analyzing the flight recorder of a future Transformer's spaceship, which they had unearthed and safeguarded since the previous century. They discover the future Decepticon [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]]'s "Central Consciousness File X-9." Using the life force of the current Ravage, who had been captured by the E.D.C., he is reborn as the Binaltech Ravage. However, sensing that his plan to change history 3 million years before had failed, Ravage once again begins to try to alter the timeline.<ref>"[[Ghosts of the Past]]"</ref>

* Ravage repairs Shockwave's [[Kronosphere]] time machine. He traps the on-the-verge-of-victory Megatron and the other Decepticon forces around Cybertron between dimensions, their mobile fortress and all. He intends to protect the Decepticons from Unicron's imminent arrival and to allow the Autobots to exhaust themselves battling Unicron. Then the Decepticons will reemerge and reign supreme.<ref>"[[Changing Lanes]]"</ref>

* The Autobot technician [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] discovers through information gathered from Ravage that in the near future, he and many other Autobots will die in the Unicron War. He sees a way to avoid this fate in the GT System, which makes it possible to replicate personalities. He initiates [[Project Bodyshop]], creating replicas of himself.<ref>"[[Project Bodyshop]]"</ref>

* The [[Interplanetary Personnel Exchange Program]], highly praised due to the excellent work of Autobot police officer [[Clamp Down]], is expanded to include [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]], [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]], and other Binaltech Autobots. They attempt to promote peaceful co-existence by [[Binaltech Asterisk|partnering]] with humans and taking on jobs. <ref>''[[Alternators#Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]''</ref>

{{note|This event could take place in either timeline, but since the Autobots here are in Binaltech bodies, it's placed in this timeline for the sake of continuity.}}
* The Autobots attempt to undo the change in history that the Binaltech Ravage caused. Autobot theoretician [[Skids (G1)|Skids]] directs "[[Operation: Distant Thunder]]" in an attempt to send a warning to the past. If it succeeds, history will return to normal, but the Autobots will lose to the Decepticons, Cybertron will be conquered by Megatron, and the great darkness of Unicron will arrive.<ref>"[[Darkest Hour]]"</ref>

* Operation: Distant Thunder fails. A mysterious entity called the "[[Optimus Primal|Protector]]" creates a bypass, creating two parallel worlds: one with the true progression of events, and the other with the altered history of the Binaltech Project. The world where the altered history continues will eventually lead to the great [[Alternity (species)|Alternity]].<ref>"[[Binal Time]]"</ref>

{{note|With the explicit creation of this parallel universe, the relevance of the Binaltech storyline to this timeline comes to an end. The story continues in [[Kill Switch|subsequent Binaltech story chapters]], and on into the ''[[Alternity (franchise)|Alternity]]'' toyline.}}

==2006==
* "Over-Technology" is used to rebuild the city of Tokyo at a fever pitch.<ref name="kissplayers"/>

* In May, just as peace is restored, hordes of an unknown Transformer species called Legion appear. The Legion creatures roam cities and attack a small number of humans, as though there is some special quality that they are looking for. <ref name="kissplayers"/>

* To fight the Legion forces, the E.D.C. uses Galvatron's cells to mass-produce black-and-white Autoroopers. When fused with Kiss Players, they can fight on equal footing with Legion creatures. <ref name="kissplayers"/>

* In June, [[Atari Hitotonari]]'s parents are killed by Legion. <ref name=kpish1>[[Kiss Players issue 1|''Kiss Players'' #1]]</ref>

* Atari is attacked by a Legion and fuses with Shaoshao Li's Ne-04 Autorooper. She shows berserker-type abilities and destroys the Legion. She is identified as a Kiss Player. <ref name=kpish1/>

* Atari joins the E.D.C. Tokyo Autorooper Team. <ref name=kpish1/>

* Starscream's ghost possesses Atari and uses her Kiss Player abilities to fuse with a new body that he forces Dr. Arkeville to make for him. His plans end in failure, and he returns to being a ghost. <ref>"[[15 Go! Go!]]" Starscream's Chapter 3</ref><ref>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|''Kiss Players'' radio drama #27]]</ref>

* The body of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], who died in the Unicron War, is transported from Autobot City in America to Tokyo via [[Narita Airport]]. The convoy carrying his corpse is attacked by the resistance and the plan to move him fails. An out-of-control Autorooper unit engages in a [[ParasiTech]] fusion with Prime's body. With the assistance of a Kiss Player from the resistance, Prime regenerates into a new body and is restored to life.<ref name=kpish2>[[Kiss Players issue 2|''Kiss Players'' #2]]</ref>

* Shaoshao Li is held captive in the underground experimentation facility beneath the Tokyo E.D.C. headquarters. A Legion attempts to fuse with her, but she is saved by the sudden appearance of Hot Rod. Hot Rod has a ParasiTech fusion with the Legion, but is reformatted by Shaoshao's Kiss Player abilities. From this day forward, Shaoshao is forced to spend her life fleeing from the E.D.C. <ref name=kpish2/> <ref>[[Kiss Players issue 3|''Kiss Players'' #3]]</ref>

* Prime, Marissa, Hot Rod, Shaoshao and Atari stop the human experimentation being carried out by the E.D.C.'s Commander [[Hitoshizuku Amaō|Amaō]] and the scattered cells are returned to Galvatron. He is once more sent on a trajectory to land on [[Thrull]]. Prime, who has finally awakened from his nightmare, returns to death.<ref>"[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|You, I and the Spinning Earth]]"</ref>

==2007==
* Former Kiss Players [[Atari Hitotonari]], [[Marissa Faireborn]] and [[Shaoshao Li]] join with the Cassetrons as idols to promote friendship between Transformers and humanity. <ref name=kp39>"[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players radio drama #39]]</ref>

* The Sparkbots attempt to collect the Angolmois energy that has spread through various eras by tricking Atari and the others. <ref name=kp39/> They time travel with [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]], but the awakened [[Primus]] stops them and they are sealed several million years ago on Earth along with the Angolmois energy.<ref>"[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players radio drama #51]]</ref>

* The Decepticon [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], who had been silent until now, uses his [[Music Label|clones]] to secretly brainwash humans.<ref>[[Music Label]]</ref>

==2010==
* Hot Rod reclaims the Matrix and becomes Rodimus Prime, leader of the Autobots, once more.

* The [[Quintesson|Quintessons]] start to try to take back their ancestral home of Cybertron.<ref name="ffod1">"[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 1]]"</ref>

* Galvatron awakens from his slumber on Planet Thrull.<ref name="ffod1" />

* Starscream, who had been active as a ghost, is restored to life by Unicron and goes missing.<ref name="gitm">"[[Ghost in the Machine]]"</ref>

* In the wake of Unicron's destruction, [[Primacron]] creates the life form [[Tornedron]], which absorbs all energies. In the distant past, his former assistant Oracle senses this and summons Grimlock and the other beast Transformers, informing them how Tornadron may be destroyed.<ref name="primitives">"[[Call of the Primitives]]"</ref>

* Due to the threat of the [[Hate Plague]], [[Quintessa]] is used to restore Optimus Prime to life.<ref name="troop1">"[[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 1]]"</ref> He uses the [[Wisdom of the Ages]] within the Matrix to cleanse the fear. The Matrix is emptied.<ref name="troop2">"[[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2]]"</ref>

* The last of the Quintessons, who had captured a time-traveling [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|vessel]] and put its crew on trial, are defeated by the Autobots led by Optimus Prime and are swallowed up in a dimensional maelstrom, disappearing.<ref>[[Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players live performance]]</ref>

* Unicron's head and remains, floating in orbit around Cybertron, are sealed up in the [[Triple Z Point]].

==2011==
* The [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]], who have come from planet [[Master (planet)|Master]], join both armies.<ref name="fourwarriors">"[[Four Warriors Come out of the Sky]]"</ref>

* The release of the Matrix's energy causes [[Vector Sigma]] to destabilize. Optimus Prime sacrifices his life to stop it.<ref name="doubleprime">"[[Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime]]"</ref>

* Partially recharged by the energy of Earth, the Matrix is fully restored by the ghost of [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], and Hot Rod becomes Rodimus Prime again.<ref name="doubleprime" />

* The war worsens. Cybertron is destroyed. Rodimus Prime leaves to seek out a new homeworld, and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress]] becomes the new Autobot commander.<ref name="gravedanger">"[[Cybertron Is in Grave Danger, Part 2]]"</ref> The planet [[Mars (planet)|Mars]] is destroyed in an explosion.<ref name="megazarakappears">"[[Explosion on Mars!! MegaZarak Appears]]"</ref>

* Ultra Magnus dies in battle.<ref name="magnusdies">"[[Ultra Magnus Dies!!]]"</ref> Galvatron disappears into a glacier.<ref name="emperoriceberg">"[[The Emperor of Destruction Vanishes on an Iceberg]]"</ref>

* [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] stops Emperor of Terror [[Scorponok (G1)|MegaZarak]]'s plan to blow up the Earth and drives the Decepticons from the Earth. Afterwards, the Cybertrons leave Earth to rebuild space.<ref name="showdownearth2">"[[The Final Showdown on Earth (Part 2)]]"</ref>

==Several years after 2011==
* [[Devil Z]], who had been asleep at the bottom of Earth's ocean, awakens and attempts to destroy all of humanity.

* The Autobots in space cannot send assistance to Earth due to the worsening battle. Instead, they send the [[Master-Brace|Masterforce System]], allowing humans to fuse with [[Transtector|Transtectors]]. However, the humans who have sided with Devil Z use this for evil. <ref>"[[Birth! Headmaster Jrs]]"</ref>

* The human [[Ginrai]], who has fused with the body intended for Optimus Prime, eliminates Devil Z.<ref name="abattleandthen">"[[A Battle... and Then...]]"</ref>

==2025==
* Under the leadership of [[Star Saber (G1)|Star Saber]], the Autobots create the [[Galactic Peace Alliance]] and establish the [[Galactic Defense Force]] to fight the Decepticons. They use [[Victory (planet)|Planet V]] as their base.<ref>"[[The Brave Hero of the Universe - Star Saber]]"</ref>

* The Decepticon Emperor of Destruction [[Deathsaurus (Victory)|Deathsaurus]] reactivates his giant fortress and attacks Earth. [[Victory Saber]] stops him and destroys the fortress.<ref>"[[Showdown! The Fortress vs the Victory Unification]]"</ref>

* In the far reaches of space, Starscream, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]], [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] and [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]]'s battle continues.<ref name="pretenderpackaging">"Hero Set" packaging blurb</ref>

==After 2025==
* Deathsaurus is reborn as the Dark Emperor. He leads all Decepticons in pursuit of the new energy form [[Energon Z]]. <ref>[[Zone (story page)#Catalogue story page 1|Zone Project Story]]</ref>

* In response, the Autobots follow [[Dai Atlas (G1)|Dai Atlas]]'s [[Plan Z]] to terraform the planet [[Micro]] into [[Zone (planet)|Planet Z]].<ref name=zone12>[[Zone (story page)|''Zone'' Part 1]]</ref>

* The new Emperor of Destruction, [[Violen Jiger]], appears. His true identity is a fusion of the ghosts of Decepticons who died in battle.<ref>[[Zone (story page)|''Zone'' Part 12]]</ref>

* On [[Saturn]]'s moon [[Titan (moon)|Titan]], where a [[Titan (species)|civilization]] exists that worships robots as gods, [[Metrotitan (G1)|Metrotitan]] is born from within the ground. He assists the Decepticons and performs sabotage activities like blocking transmissions. <ref>[[Zone (story page)|''Zone'' Part 7]]</ref>

* Violen Jiger steals the Super Element [[Zodiac]] from Earth and returns to his birthplace, the [[Tenth Planet]] of the solar system. He is destroyed by the new commander Dai Atlas and his warriors. The rainbow of Zodiac, which is the energy of constructing the universe, fills the 10th planet with life.<ref name=zone12/>

* [[Victory Saber]] pursues the Decepticon [[Gigant Bomb]], breaks through the Bloody Zone, and ends up in the year 2004.<ref name=victorywarriorsenter/>

{{note|This is the second mention of the "Bloody Zone," which from its context appears to be the same as the [[Blasty Zone]]. It may be a typo.}}
* The Great Emperor [[Dark Nova]], who looks very similar to Unicron, appears. In response, Dai Atlas orders the [[Battlestars]] to seek out Optimus Prime's body, which had been stolen by Decepticons.<ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 1]]</ref>

* Dark Nova revives Galvatron as [[Megatron (G1)|Super Megatron]]. <ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 6]]</ref>

* On the satellite base [[Lucifer]], Optimus Prime is discovered and reborn as [[Star Convoy]] using the power of Zodiac. <ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 4]]</ref>

* Super Megatron evolves into Ultra Megatron, <ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 8]]</ref> then fuses with Dark Nova to become [[Dark Nova|Star Giant]].<ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 9]]</ref> Star Convoy destroys him from within. <ref>[[The Battlestars (story page)|''The Battlestars'' Part 10]]</ref>

* The new leader of the Decepticons, [[Scrash]], leads [[Flash Wing]], [[Deathplay]], [[Darkfly]] and [[Sharp Edge (OC)|Sharp Edge]] to invade Earth, but is stopped by [[Sixbuilder]] and the other new defenders of the Earth.<ref>Er, [[Operation Combination]], we think?</ref>

* Planet Cybertron is revived, but suffers a deadly energy shortage. Optimus Prime becomes a [[Powermaster]], fuses with a [[Nebulan]], and protects himself with a phase modulation shield. He enters a black hole to get the super energy [[Nucleon]].<ref>Nucleon Quest Super Convoy's toy bio</ref>

* Optimus Prime is reborn as an [[Action Master]] and creates the [[Cybertron Alliance]] with Megatron, who lost his violence circuits in the previous war. However, Megatron, who has lost his underlings to humans, begins planning to invade Earth once more. <ref>[[G-2 (story page)|''G-2'' Part 3]]</ref>

* Optimus Prime and Megatron, who have upgraded to new forms, follow "[[The Law of Cybertron]]" and have a one-on-one duel in the 17th District of the [[Mirtonian constellation]]. Prime is defeated and destroyed, but is rebuilt into [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Battle Convoy]] by the power of the Matrix.<ref>[[G-2 (story page)|''G-2'' Part 5]]</ref> Megatron joins with [[Dreadwing (G2)|Dreadwing]] and others, and a battle begins. In the end, the Autobots triumph and the Decepticons flee to the far reaches of the universe.<ref>[[G-2 (story page)|''G-2'' Part 6]]</ref>

* [[Galvatron II]], who has come from a parallel world, threatens the galaxy with his [[Warworld|mobile battle fortresses]].<ref>Galvatron II's toy bio</ref> In response, [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Laser Ultra Magnus]], who was revived by Battle Convoy's [[Reconfiguration Matrix]], establishes a mobile combat team and prepares for battle.<ref>Laser Ultra Magnus's toy bio</ref>

* Battle Convoy equips himself with a new secret weapon and updates himself to a form that resembles his original body. Through a special coating, he gains a "[[black body]]" to absorb sunlight. He uses his twin special missile launchers and engages Galvatron II in battle.<ref>"[[Hybrid Style Convoy Black Version]]"</ref>

* The Autobots develop new remote-controlled [[Eldedroid]]s based on Prime's new black body.<ref>Masterpiece Convoy Black Version's toy bio</ref> One is sent as part of an Autobot unit to investigate a Decepticon underwater base. <ref>"[[MP-1B Cybertron Commander / Convoy Black Ver.]]"</ref>

==Approximately 300 years later==
* The long war ends with victory by the Autobots, and the Decepticons sign a cease-fire.

* The next-generation Autobots (Maximals) create a clone of Starscream, who has an indestructible spark. They try to use him as an immortal warrior, but fail.<ref name="badspark">"[[Bad Spark]]"</ref> This "[[Rampage (BW)|Protoform X]]" massacres [[Colony Omicron]] and is captured 4 [[Stellar cycle|stellar cycles]] later.<ref name="deepmetal">"[[Deep Metal]]"</ref>

* The next-generation [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] steals the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden Disk]], which the Maximals have been safeguarding. With his underlings, he travels to the Earth of 4 million years ago. [[Optimus Primal]] and his crew, who have been engaged in deep-space exploration with the captured Protoform X aboard their ship,<ref name="badspark" /> are assigned to chase down Megatron.<ref name="bw1" /> Colony Omicron's former chief of security, [[Depth Charge (BW)|Depth Charge]], follows in pursuit of Protoform X.<ref name="deepmetal" />

* The Predacon [[Tripredacus Council]] view Megatron's independent actions as dangerous, and send Ravage 4 million years into the past to assassinate all Maximals and Predacons involved with the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]].<ref name="agenda1" /> Their plan ends in failure.<ref name="agenda2" />

* While Optimus Primal's Maximals return to Cybertron with the captured Megatron, Megatron escapes into an earlier period and uses a virus bomb to conquer the planet before the Maximals return to the planet.<ref name="revelations2">"[[Revelations Part II: Descent]]"</ref>

* Primal and his crew are affected by the virus bomb and lose their memories and ability to transform, but through the guidance of Oracle, they are reformatted into new bodies.<ref name="reformatting">"[[The Reformatting]]"</ref> It is revealed that Primal was sent into the past to bring organic beast bodies back to Cybertron as part of Oracle's plan. Primal takes Megatron with him as he throws himself into the core of Cybertron, a fountain of organic energy. They die. The captured sparks are all freed, and Cybertron is reformatted into a verdant world with a balance of organic and machine.<ref name="endgame3">"[[Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future]]"</ref>

* Primal and Megatron, despite having died, are [[Beast Wars Reborn|reborn]] on a parallel world through the power of the ancient Transformer [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]], who resides there. They descend to [[Jungle Planet (Cybertron)|Jungle Planet]] and gain new bodies. They cause the [[Cyber Key|Ignition Effect]] on the planet for the first time.<ref name="bwreborn">''[[Beast Wars Reborn]]''</ref>

==Era unknown==
* The ancient Gaeans, who live on [[Gaea]] (Earth in the future), succeed in obtaining [[Angolmois]] energy. However, they discover that the energy could potentially destroy the entire universe if it responds to an evil heart, and so they leave an [[Artemis|observation system]] on the moon and abandon their planet, leaving for space.

==Tens of thousands of years later==
* An armored platoon led by the next-generation [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] seeks to possess the Angolmois energy dormant within Gaea, and [[Lio Convoy]]'s team attempt to stop them.<ref>"[[The New Forces Arrive!]]"</ref>

* Lio Convoy travels through the [[Blasty Zone]] to the year 2005. <ref name=liotyphoon/>

* Galvatron summons the artificial planet [[Nemesis (BWII)|Nemesis]]. Lio Convoy and his crew use the power of the [[Energon Matrix]] to seal the Angolmois energy into capsules and release them into space. Galvatron is destroyed.<ref>"[[Farewell, Lio Convoy!]]"</ref>

* After Nemesis explodes, Lio Convoy is swallowed up by the ensuing wormhole and is transported to the planet [[Dinosaur (planet)|Dinosaur]] in the past.

==Several years after the battle on Gaea==
* [[Magmatron]], who is obsessed with vengeance for Planet Dinosaur, which was attacked by Unicron in the past, attempts to collect the Angolmois capsules. Meanwhile, military instructor [[Big Convoy]] and his new recruits learn of the capsules via a message from Lio Convoy and make the capsules' collection their mission.<ref>"[[Big Convoy, Move Out]]"</ref>

* The [[Blendtron|Blendtrons]], servants of Unicron, steal the capsules.<ref>"[[The Seized Capsules]]"</ref> Unicron resurrects as an energy being, and the second [[Great War (G1)|Great War]] begins. Unicron attacks [[Vector Sigma]] and is reborn as Vector Sigma Unicron, using Cybertron as his new body.<ref>"[[Unicron's Ambition]]"</ref>

* Big Convoy, aided by Lio Convoy, uses the [[Matrix Buster]] to defeat Unicron, who has returned to being an energy being, and thus brings peace to the universe. Afterwards, Lio Convoy becomes [[Great Convoy]] and is promoted to the ruling body. After the graduation ceremony for the recruits, the Maximals and Predacons stop fighting and cooperate to rebuild Cybertron.<ref>"[[Graduation Ceremony!!]]"</ref>

==References==
*''Transformers KissPlayer Chronological Table'' printed on ''Autorooper X Atari'' toy packaging (2006)
*Timeline featured in ''Kiss Players/Teletraan Go! Go! Collection'' (MediaWorks, 2007)

==Original fiction==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Chronologies]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]