Talk:Scale

2007-12-30T13:57:02Z

217.43.84.145: movie scale alert

Hi, this is my second (and much larger) personally-originated article. I hope you like it; I certainly had fun writing it.

As I discussed on [[Micro-Continuities]], I'm keen for people to contribute to the article; I'm not overly precious about it. All I'd ask is that if you really hate something, please discuss it HERE first, rather than outright deleting or extensively re-writing it just yet.

I'd particularly appreciate anyone wanting to add examples from other franchises. It's pretty G1 and Beast Era-centric at the moment. More/better pictures would also be great.

Also, I'd REALLY appreciate any suggestions as to what category(ies) this article should be placed in. I'm really scratching my head here...

Anyway, don't be shy, let the newbie know what you think!

Cheers,
[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

:Wonderful article. I enjoyed it. This is something that's always on my mind when I'm looking at my toys or comics. About the proto-humans in Beast Wars, though: proto-humans were smaller than modern humans (around 4 ft tall). So the scale problems, while still an issue, are not as drastic as they seem. I'm not sure how to integrate that into that section. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 18:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

::Wow, thanks man. And cheers for the protohumans info. Please feel free to contribute anything, especially pictures! Ta, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

I love the subtle hilarious genius of giving this the Things that Don't Exist category. --[[User:Terrocon Blot|Terrocon Blot]] 05:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
:Uncyclopedia reference FTW! --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 04:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

== JBW Scales? ==

I remember hearign that the JBW TF's were scaled like classic G1 TF's, not the 8' tall BW-era average, but it's been so longsince i saw parts of BW2 that I can't back that up.<br/>
(This of course creates issues with Primal suddenly getting that size int he teamup. which I suppose is a problem in Robotmasters too.)<br/>
Pic of Robotmasters Primal & Prime vs. a 2-shot from Agenda? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:I wouldn't know; I've never seen more than the teamup movie of BWII and some painful snippets of BWNeo on YouTube. Frankly I loath the little I've seen of these shows, and most Japanese-originated fiction for that matter, although I don't want to force that opinion on anyone. Love the leader-toys though ;-)

:Please feel free to add anything like that if you can verify it, and if accurate please do point out the resulting scale problem with Primal in relation BW and RM. Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

::Such misconceptions were probably caused by the fact that in BWII Most of the Destrons turn into vehicles, the J-Beast Warriors are only G1-Sized if we assume that the Destron's vehicle modes are supposed to be real world scale. They could just be tiny vehicles like in Dawn of Futures Past. Which is probably the most likely, as Lio Convoy has been shown to be the same size as the Lion he scanned, while on the other hand Tasmanian Kid turns into a huge Tasmanian Devil, much like Rattrap turns into a huge rat.

:::But that's inconsistant as well. I did a quick search and found evidence that LioConvoy was about the size of his lion, as you said [http://bigbot.com/beast_wars_2/pictures/cartoon_tv_show/02_White_Lion_Run/], but I also saw an image of Tasmania Kid cradling a tasmanian devil that he scanned in his hands [http://bigbot.com/beast_wars_2/pictures/cartoon_tv_show/04_Lake_Trap/]. Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_devil#Physical_description] places the average length of a Tasmanian devil at 652 mm, which would be over one-fourth the height of an average man. So it's still confusing.-[[User:EricMarrs|EricMarrs]] 23:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Contextually, though I haven't seen the episode, I'm betting that's a baby Tazmanian devil.
::::Sale in JBW is weird. It appears that Lioconvoy was 'real' sized, (about 7 feet tall, and transforms into a normal-sized lion.) while others in hsi crew are ridiculously undersized. By contrast- the Destrons turned into TINY versions of jets and such. The toy scale was (loosely) maintained. Robotmasters is fucked though.
::::I might rephrase the entry to more accurately reflect this contradiction. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

== Mini-Cons ==

The first paragraph on Mini-Con scale bugs me. The Earth-based altmodes have always been pretty clearly intended as small-scale reproductions of actual vehicles, no different from how Waspinator is (theoretically) a large-scale reproduction of an actual wasp. So Sparkplug, for instance, has windows because he's a tiny Lamborghini and Lamborghinis have windows. (A case could be made for the non-Earth-design vehicles, I suppose.) It just seems to be inventing an issue for the sake of having something to question on a subject where there's already plenty going on that's questionable... if anything, Mini-Cons in Armada are one of the few cases of ''consistent'' scale in Transformers. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
:Well, except the weapons. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

: Yeah, I'm not wild about it either. They're not supposed to be having passengers at all ever, and clearly were never intended to... except in ''Cybertron''. (And, well, the SAT, right.) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

::Well, I take your point, but it seems to me that it's still a valid inclusion. Even if Mini-Cons were never ''intended'' to hold passangers (although for that matter, frankly, how often do you see post-Movie characters actually carrying passangers anyway...?), they nevertheless turn into vehicles that ''appear'' to be able to carry people in them but are too small to actually do so. They are, almost by definition, SCALED DOWN representations of (mostly) real vehicles. So feel free to reword the paragraph, but I still think Mini-Cons warrant a reference. That's my two cents, anyway. Ta, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]

==Question==

Why does Lio Convoy and Primal being the same size in BWII cause a problem. Lio convoy was the same size as a real lion.

==nanotyranus==

you should remove the nanotyrannus caomment since many now believe it's just a young rex
:Except that when Mainframe created the CGI models for Beast Wars, Nanotyrannus was believed to be a real genus. I always assumed that they had Megatron get his beast mode from scanning Nanotyrannus fossils so he wouldn't completely dwarf the rest of the cast. --[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 20:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== Scale within Toylines ==

Parts of the paragraph involving the movie toys are very inaccurate, especially the claim that non-Prime or Megatron characters having toys in different classes representing the same body is virtuarlly unprecendeted. If it were just the Legends that were the exception, that would be fine, as the reason for that class was "small versions of the large toys", much the TF-Juniors (same goes for fast-food toys and kabya kits).

The main problem with this is Beast Machines, as the first Megatron (Mega) toy is the same "body" as his TMII form (Ultra), three toys for Cheetor (Mega, Supreme, Deluxe) and Primal (Deluxe, Mega, Supreme), Jetstorm (Deluxe and Ultra), Tankorr (Mega and Basic), and Thrust (Deluxe and Basic). (Yes, the Basics forms of the last two were techinaclly Drones, but the ''Beast Wars Returns'' line released the Basics as the Generals, and the visual difference between General and Drone was some extra paint.) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== Awsomeness. ==

Hey man love the article. I wish all of wikipedia could be like that, informal and with a bit of humour, instead of being as about as much fun as getting repeatedly kicked in the face. Lauds.

== Movie ==

While not perfect, the movie has avoided many of the scale issues that previous generations have had, and should be mentioned. As with Beast-Era, this entire new kettle of fish is in need of its own section and should probably be added soon. If anyone can point out any scale problems in-movie (not in the toys, though there are many there) please mention them here. -[[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 14:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

* In the movie we are shown the All-Spark compressing itself from a massive cube to a much smaller one, in which a human is easily able to hold and run with it. Isn't it reasonable to suggest that the Transformers, being a product of the All-Spark, would be able to, to some degree, compress or expand themselves in the same fashion?
::Yes, but that's a topic for the [[size changing]] article. While this article does talk about size changing (possibly too much), any discussion that's ''just'' about size changing shouldn't be here. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

== Featured? ==

Any chance of this article becoming a featured article? It contains an enormous ammount of knowledge, and is also witty at the same time. As such, this article could be said to be a perfect example of what this wiki is about. [[User:Tindalos|Tindalos]] 20:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
: Well, as the originator of the article, I'd second that! ;-) I'm enormously chuffed to hear you say that, thanks. [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

:: Ideally, I'd like to see the BW sections edited a bit more, and possibly integrated into the top sections of the article. Currently, the article is partly organized by topic (scale and toys, scale and fiction) and partly by franchise. Also, it needs to be trimmed of discussion of size-changing that is not relevant to scale (with that discussion moved into the size changing article). [[User:JW|JW]] 02:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Hi there [[User:JW|JW]],
::: Your points are valid, but I'd actually argue that the BW stuff ''should'' stay separate. Although there's no massively logical rationale behind this (scale, after all, is scale), I think the fundamental aesthetic differences between the vehicular TFs that dominate the franchise and the animal altmodes of the Beast Era, especially Season 1 of BW (which is mostly what this material covers, since they were the only significant depiction of "real animal" altmodes) are better discussed separately. I know that falls a little bit afoul of the usually meaningless "toasters versus squishies" dualism, but in this case I really think it just''feels right'' as an organisational divide for this particular article.
:::As to the size-changing stuff; I'll have a closer look but I really thing that some discussion of size-changing is inevitably required with a topic concerning scale.
:::Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]] 23 October 2007
Me again, [[User:JW|JW]],

I've had a close look at the article and I really feel that all the discussion of size-changing herein really ''is'' neccessary, and thoroughly relevant. Sorry.
[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]] 26th Oct. 07

:If you think the amount of size-changing discussion currently in the article is about right, I won't quibble much. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

== Metroplex ==

While his "city" mode isn't really shown, Metroplex is about the size of Autobot City in the UK comic ("Space Pirates", to be precise).

[[User:Cliffjumper|Cliffjumper]] 09:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

== movie scale alert ==

i think there might be one more scale problem in the 2007 transformers movie : when bumblebee shrinks the all spark he holds it fairly easily with one hand and when ladiesman217 takes it he holds it just as easily with two hands[[User:217.43.84.145|217.43.84.145]] 13:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Protoform

2007-12-30T13:30:03Z

217.43.84.145:

:''Protoforms are part of a Transformer's [[life cycle]] in many Transformers continuities.''

[[Image:Protoforms2.jpg|right|300px|thumb|TeH Nekkid AiRrazzer!1!]]

'''Protoforms''' consist of an unspecified freeflowing metallic matter layered over basic robotic systems. In many continuities a protoform is the first stage in a Transformer's [[Life cycle|life cycle]]. These protoforms only await a life-giving [[Spark]] and the alt-form information necessary to transform them into fully-functional, alive Transformer beings. Often protoforms are used to transport Transformers on intergalactic journeys.

Protoforms are transported or stored in [[stasis lock]], where they look like smooth robotic humanoids (right.) When not in stasis lock protoforms are a roiling mass of liquid metal around their internal frame.<ref>Protoform states seen in [[The Spark]].</ref>

''Japanese name: '''Sentou-in'''(Meaning "soldier" or "warrior".) '' (Beast Wars II)

==Generation 1==

===Beast Wars===

Protoforms are often contained within [[stasis pod]]s and dropped into unexplored worlds.

===Beast Wars II===

[[Image:Protoforms1.jpg|left|thumb|Pretty spry for globs of pudding]]

[[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] protoforms were shown moving about the Predacon warship using their own power, though they were not shown to speak or have any kind of personality. After the Predacons had gathered enough information about the machines of [[Gaea]]'s past, they then fed the information into the protoforms via energy waves. The protoforms were then altered into the [[Autoroller (BWII)|Autorollers]]. ''(Given that the Autorollers were apparently pre-existant veterans this would be a case similar to that of [[Airazor]] where an already living Cybertronian had been downloaded into a new protoform body. )''

===Dreamwave comics continuity===

Dreamwave first applied the existence of protoforms backwards into the Generation 1 era and established them as the first step in most (if not all) Transformer life.

{{-}}

==Robots in Disguise==

==Unicron Trilogy==

===''Cybertron''===

Protoforms are established as the first stage of Transformer life, this is usually followed by [[Primary programming]].

==''Transformers'' (2007) movie==

Protoforms in this continuity are more than just the first stage of a Transformer's life, they are the "base" form that exists down inside each robot. Protoforms are made of an ultra-dense liquid metal material and are extremely hard to damage.

In the rare case they are not actively practicing their natural proclivity for chameleon-like disguise (usually only when engaged in interstellar travel) Transformers shed their exo-structure and return to their protoform state. This protoform is capable of transforming into its [[Transition form|transition form]]; an armored cometary shape capable of interstellar travel. Upon landing on a new world and transforming back into a protoform the Transformer immediately begins [[Trans-scan|trans-scanning]] for new alternate forms to adopt. When one is chosen the protoform draws on its own ultra dense substance and any extranious matter nearby to generate a new exostructure disguise.

==Toys==

*Protoform [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]

*Protoform [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]

*[[Robot Heroes]] [[Jazz (Movie)| Protoform Autobot Jazz]] vs. [[Brawl (Movie)|Decepticon Brawl]]

==Trivia==
* A traditional Cybertronian song features the lines: "Protoform/ Protoform/ What will you be?" <ref>[[Black Horizon, Part 1]], G.I. Joe vs. Transformers Volume 4</ref>

* All the Autobot Protoforms within the Transformers film are Protoform Optimus Prime. Not to say that ILM got lazy.

==Footnotes==
<references/>

{{stub}}
[[Category: Beast Wars]]
[[Category: Beast Wars II]]
[[Category: Robots in Disguise]]
[[Category: Biology]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

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Talk:Scale

Protoform