MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2007-10-25T13:16:22Z

220.239.53.20: /* Question about mass-produced "fan" toys */

==Archives==
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive5]]

==Improvement drives and new templates?==
So some brief perusal of Wookieepedia showed me a few things they do that could really be co-opted here, both to make the site look better and be a litlte more functional.

EDIT: Example page was changed -- M Sipher, who is having problems with "loss of session data" on this motherfucker and it's really starting to piss him off.

I like the idea of an "improvement drive", taking a dedicated focus on certain areas... some sections really DO need work. I think some of the more confusing and semiforgotten eras of TF fiction or toylines should really get fleshed out and soon, like the RID show, Enegon cartoon (ugh), late-G1 characters, Omega Point, etc.

And then there's the templates they use. I like the use of images and quotes. Looking through their bigass template section [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Templates], there are a lot we don't need, but a few might be good, like the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Image image] and [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Argument argument] templates, plus the aforementioned improvement drive template. And [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:SIP this one is just awesome.]

Also, we should totally add an image of a Quint with death-face forward for the "marked for deletion" template.

Just a few suggestions. Let's discuss. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
: I like the 'Bobba Fet, where?' template... do you have a thought on an equivalent sentiment/piccie for TF? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:: Something with Reflector, natch. Alternately, "Hot Rod, look! There's a hole in the <s>shuttle!</s> article!" Also, we probably need to work the various generations of TF in across the board. Use some RiD, some UT, some G1, etc. Mix it up. Have Vector Prime for the "upcoming events" template, maybe the Ratchet/Megatron monster for "this article is self-contradicting." (alternately, Galvatron vs. Megatron). [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 02:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Oh man, for a page that's had a lot of debate, use cartoon Galvatron, with "Well, all I have to say about that is... BWAAAAAAAH." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: Not Dinobot and "Again your democracy fails us"? (paraphrasing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

===Tech-spec template===
The tech-spec numbers, I think, should be archived, but people kept wanting to put them in the main profile section, which is not where they need to be. Then it hit me... why not at each toy's description? You know, where the TS numbers specifically apply? Maybe after the ID number...

{| border="1" style="text-align:center"
|-
| '''STR''' || '''INT''' || '''SPD''' || '''END''' || '''RNK''' || '''CRG''' || '''FRP''' || '''SKL'''
|-
| 7 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 5 || 9 || 7 || 7
|-
|}

Just a thought. It's info that we probably really SHOULD archive. If someone wants to make this prettier, feel free. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:I'm out for the weekend, but I'll take a stab at it when I get back, hopefully some format that remains small and un-annoying even if you have multiple stats. (I doubt you'd list ALL of Optimus Prime's, but you'd probably list the original, and his G2 spec where he's Rank 9...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think a Wiki is far from the best format for archiving tech spec numbers. I agree that such information should be archived, somewhere, it already is archived in many places, and in dedicated lists and databases that are way, way better for that sort of data. I'm not going to say that it's a "bad" idea to include them here, but I think it should be a low priority. Certainly below things like writing articles for cartoon episodes and comic issues. Anyway, I do agree that if we include them at all they should be included in the "toys" section since many characters have more than one set of numbers depending on which toy you're looking at. Also, any template we make for them should have switches in it that can change FRP to FRB and also trade in the Mincromaster teamwork/coop stats. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Good thought, both on the location and the optionals. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Oh, I'm not about to go on some huge TS# update spree, don't get me wrong. There are certainly a load of things I think would take higher priority (like that whole more-colorful-header thing brought up a while back). But I'm just thinking it's a piece of info that can be somewhat unobtrusively added to a relevant section, might be worth looking into at some point. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::There are some UK exclusives with little to say abotu them BUT their tech-specs. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Also, the LOCs. Having the numbers there would also help fill some of the vertical space to prevent messes like [[Jetfire#Classics|what we see with Jetfire's page]]. The "Attacktix" sub-section really needs to be "page-breaked", but doing so will levae a LOT of blank space. A TS number addition would solve that nicely. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

i was looking at wookipedia and saw on the search toolbar that they had a wookie on top of it. could we do something like that with bumblebee on it.also it would be cool to have a background for the site like mabey cybertron or a picture of an autobot decepticon gen 1 battle, or just a big autobot logo.

==A little more color?==
Just an idle thought. Is there a way to tweak the colors of the picture thumbnail borders? Like, say, for a Decepticon character page, their pictures would be bordered with a pale purple, while the Autobots would have light red... and uh... blue for humans? Green for Quints and miscellaneous aliens? Black with white text for Unicron?<br>
Yeah, it's functionally pointless and a lot of "going over old pages" work, but the graphic design part of me is screaming for a little more visual "oomph", and since TFs don't lend themselves well to the kind of "core data table" whatchamadoozie you find on most other character-centric wikis... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 10:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We've started to hash this out, and I've constructed a [[User:Suki Brits/Nightbeat|mock-up of the idea.]] Also see the talk page, for M Sipher's proposal on colours. If you have any thoughts, please post them, as this is obviously a MASSIVE sweeping change to what the wiki will look like. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 02:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
how do you do that?-grimlocker

==Sitename==
So, like, this is completely frivolous in the large scheme of things, but it's always sort of bothered me. I don't like the name of this wiki! I mean, even beyond us needing to get it spelled right when you type <nowiki>{{SITENAME}}</nowiki>, I just don't think it's a very apt one. Now, Teletraan I could answer just about anything on the cartoon, so long as it was pertinent to the plot, but it never struck me as a Repository of All Transformers Knowledge. There are at least two much better options.

#[[Vector Sigma]] -- It apparently knows everything, in addition to all manner of other qualities
#[[Underbase]] -- A dedicated Transformers knowledge database.

Now, of the two, I vastly prefer Underbase, firstly because scores of fan sites already use "Vector Sigma." (The same problem is present with "Teletraan I.") And secondly, it sets up all sorts of jokes about how too much knowledge about Transformers leads to madness or death. Ha ha ha.

Anyway, I mostly wanted to get that off my chest. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, but. At this point, the Teletraaanagh-eleven name is pretty much associated with the wiki. Rebranding your product right after it's finally starting to get name recognition in the fandom seems like kind of a dumb idea.[[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:I agree that Teletraan I is not the coolest possible name for this wiki, but I think Hooper_X is right that it's too late to change it. It's certainly an adequate name, and honestly it has much broader recognition than your other suggestions, which is probably a good thing. Pretty much anybody that knows anything about Transformers will recognize the name Teletraan I. Most of those same people will have never read or heard of the Underbase story and probably won't remember the name Vector Sigma either. The name we have is good enough. Also, I imagine getting the SITENAME variable changed is as simple a matter as leaving a note on [[Wikia:User:Angela]]'s talk page. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

yah i dont like the site name either.we could call it "autobots roll out!" the transformers wiki.

== "Sunbow universe" ==

I've noticed a number of pages that mention the "Sunbow universe" of the "Sunbow portion of the G1 continuity family" or pictures that state the source as anepisode of the "Sunbow cartoon". I remember a discussion about this awhile back, and I seem to remember that we decided against calling the the G1 cartoon the "sunbow" anything, as there was only one G1 cartoon that didn't already have another title, and there's about as much stuff in there that wasn't done by Sunbow anyway (most of it it Japanese fiction, but still...) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
:Oh yeah, that's usually me (since I prefer the exact terminology.) I haven't been doing it since we had that discussion I think, just had a brain-fart today. So, uh, yeah, you're right, we did decide that. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

== Botcon 2007 Battle of the Boards ==

From Brian:
"Faction Feud â€“ The Battle of the Boards

This Transformer trivia game show pits different Transformers web sites
against each other in the battle for all Transformers knowledge.
Faction Feud was a huge hit at BotCon 2006, so donâ€™t miss out on the
chance to compete this year! There are eight slots available for this
tournament so sing up ASAP! It will truly be a battle of wits!
How to enter: email Christie@mastercollector.com with your web
siteâ€™s URL and the 5 names and screen names of your 5-member team. Deadline
to enter: June 1, 2007."

We need to do this. I'd like to volunteer, but I realize I haven't been the most active contributor to the wiki. I'll step aside if need be. I just want to see Team TFWiki happen.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:Can we argue collaboratively about the answers before arriving at a consensus? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
::Doubtful. But maybe we can find a way to work awful jokes into our answers. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I wish to hell I could get in on this one. Oh well. Maybe next year. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

We need to go ahead and submit our entry. I volunteer, and I need 4 more players. Who's with me? Who will give up the power to transform to... wait, no. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 01:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You can count on me / Though I know not UT. --[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You absolutely do NOT want me on your team, since I don't know crap, but if it's down to four people and nobody else will step up, I'll totally do it.
:At the very least, I will totally get some pom pons going. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 01:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:I am... willing. But there would be plenty of better choices than me. I guess the contest seemed pretty easy last year, so I could probably perform well, but Walky, Sipher, and LV would all be way better than I. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Graham, Sipher, and I would also be way better than you if they use the same questions as last year. 'Cuz, y'know, we wrote them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::That's probably reason enough for you three to bow out, I guess. We'll get by.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:Ah... sure, why not. I'll sign up. Someone will need to keep an eye on me near gametime so that I don't forget to show up, though. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Sweet. That makes 5, but I'll give it another day. If anyone else wants in, or someone on the team changes their mind, let us know.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Ah hell, I'll toss my hat in too. If necessary, I'm totally happy being a B-list sub in case someone who already volunteered or is just plain more knowledgeable than me bows out. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I've sent the e-mail! After a little bit of discussion, we ended up with me, Rotty, Steve-O, Monzo, Jackpot, and Blitz as our alternate. This is gonna be great. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
: The deadline has come and gone. Other sites have received their confirmations; we have not. So... apparently we're not in? A polite "piss off" e-mail would have been preferable to just not hearing ANYTHING... [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, good job, everybody who actually ended up on the team when they let us in at the last minute. (Who was in the lineup, again?) It would've been damned embarrassing if the Wiki had been out-trivia-ed, so thanks for doing us proud. I think we need that photo of Monz with all the medals on the BC07 page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Titles for characters with multiple names==

I want to predicate this by admitting that at some level it doesn't matter at all because of the existence of article redirects.

In looking over the recent changes, I noticed the [[Wing Dagger]] article, and wondered why, if our rule for characters who got new bodies with new names is that we list them under the name they first appeared in-fiction with (such as [[Hot Rod]] and [[Overhaul (Cybertron)]], the Wing Dagger article is a redirect. Walky said it had been discussed at some point and decided to do "name of the first TOY". I found mention of this on [[Talk:Overhaul (Cybertron)]] where LV seems to basically settle on that after realizing that all the more sensible options lead to conclusions we seemed to have already violated.

Currently, [[Help:Article types and titles]] says, "Characters with multiple names (as in the case of alter-egos) should have their article listed under their most prominent name..." Leaving aside the issue that prominence is ambiguous for a few characters, this seems, to me, to be by far the best option. Our wiki has developed into something ''HIGHLY'' fiction/character centered. The toys are almost an afterthought. Basing something as seemingly fundamental as what to name a character's article on what name happened to be applied to their first toy is totally out of left field.

I admit that the first-toy rule would be unambiguous and solve nearly all the tricky cases (I sort of have a problem with Overhaul/Leobreaker, but not a huge problem). However, it still feels ''wrong'' to me. In principle, some canon source could state that a character who is extremely visible in some franchise was a new body for some random no-fiction toy character from the previous franchise, and we would end up listing them under their old and irrelevant name for perpetuity. It pains me to replace the phrase "most prominent name" with "name applied to their first toy". It's not a rule that has any logic or sense behind it. It's a kludge that happens to solve most of the practical problems but doesn't fit my idea of the "spirit" of the wiki.

I would appreciate hearing suggestions/comments from other editors.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

:I agree completely. The fact of the matter is that TF fiction is a patchwork of ambiguities, contradictions, dangling threads, and irregularities. Oftentimes there just CAN'T be hard-and-fast rules; we have to bite the bullet and accept that the only logical option is to allow for subjectivity. In this specific case, the standard has to be "prominence." Sure, such a thing might lead to arguments and fights and what-have-you with no clear Law to arbitrate, but that's what we get for putting together a wiki on Transformers of all things. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

==Template for continuity organization?==
Is there a page somewhere that lays out a standard for how the continuities are grouped? Like, one massive article filled with headers and subheads for every possible universe, which families they're under, and what order they should go in? Because I'm a little confused as to the specifics sometimes, such as in [[Talk:Megatron_%28BW%29#Continuity|this discussion]], but that died with no resolution. It seems like a good idea to have a template-page where we can hash out the details. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

==Toy-photo policy?==
What's our policy on toy photos, officialness- and copyright-wise? I imagine pics from Hasbro's site and publications are preferable, like how we only use Hasbro-approved art and never fanart. But what about shots from places like [http://www.toybin.org/list.php Toybin] and [http://www.tfu.info/ TFU.info] and Remy's photos and all the galleries of the various TF-news sites and so on? I've certainly seen such photos in articles, but I've also seen people discourage the use of specific sites' images (like TFU.info). What's the principle at work here? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, my principle is "TFU.info's images look horrible and have depict toys which are sometimes fan-painted and have stickers all over the wrong places sideways." Also, I think as a general rule of thumb for the wiki, the background of a toy photo should be white. Not "you can see the unwhitebalanced panels of cascaded posterboard in the background," but actual white. But these are just my thoughts! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::It seems like our policy is 'official is always good, if Hasbro's stock photos aren't too off, but if you're usign another source, they'd better look '''good''', and make sure you give them full credit with a link.' (Or at least that seems to be how we've handled it thus far...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I can agree to that. "Official toy photos are best, if they're the non-photoshop-retouched kind and the toy is transformed correctly and the paint apps are the same in the production version." If you can't get that, take your own. If you can't get that, steal! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Do we have a 'how to construct an Article' page? Not just format- but 'places you should really look for information, link to, etc'?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::Cool, thanks for the input. The one other time I've seen discussion on the matter (I don't recall which article it was in), someone was discouraging use of TFU.info pics because that site exists almost entirely to show photos. So swiping photos from there seems more like intellectual-property "damage" than if you take from, say, the more diversified [http://www.seibertron.com/toys/index.php Seibertron.com]. Thoughts on that? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::: I'm pretty sure I was part of that convo. And yes, Seibertron is my theftable-of-choice even though their pictures tend to have blacks a bit too sweet (Remy is second,) in that case IIRC I swiped from TFU because they had ''just'' the right angle I needed to highlight something. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

==Archival time==
I'm moving everything that hasn't seen a reply in two months into the archive. If you still want a topic raised on this page, don't hesitate to either start it again, or copy it back here. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 20:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template==
[[User:FFN|FFN]] fixed a glitch the other day with [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy's]] spoiler template overlapping his picture quote. I just found [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee's]] the same way. [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade's]] page has an odd manifestation where the template doesn't overlap anything important, but it does cover the top edge of his picture. It then, presumably because of the picture, line-breaks inside the template, causing the Jazz image to cover the words of the template.

I brought this up in the channel, and Walky said it looked fine on his screen. So I checked it in IE (I normally use Firefox), and it looked fine there, too...

So I'm not going to go altering a bunch of pages just because of something on my screen, but I want to put this out there to see if anyone else has the problem. Apparantly FFN did at least once. It appears to be browser-related, and I'm not sure what the precedent is on that situation. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 17:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:I've got that same exact problem with the Barricade page, using Firefox. Looking at it with IE, the spoiler template doesn't overlap the picture of Barricade there, but the beginning of "follow" in its text is still covered over by Jazz. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::It's a result of the spoiler template being after the picture- and the main bod doesn't get shoved left properly. I feel liek there should be a solution to that... I'll look at it, but for the mo ment, if you just move the spoiler template ABOVE the picture, the problem disappears. (This may actually be a problem with Firefox's float implementation, neither browser does layout 100% spot-on perfect.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:It [http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/misc/spoiler-template.png looks awful] in Opera, too. In both Opera and Firefox, I'm not seeing any words covered up. It's just that crazy wrapping thing happening. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

::That's exactly how it looks in Firefox on my computer. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 22:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Hrm, done with pure styles, the messagebox stays behind, but somethign with the wikipmedia's messagebox styles (which were intended to be banners across the tops of articles) doen't play nice with floats.
:::Since Spoiler and some other templates are frequently used mid-stream, it looks like we (I) need a separate approach for these mid-stream templates. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::::[[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout's]] is REALLY bad... but only in Firefox, again. It has some glitches in IE, but they aren't as obstructing to the article itself.

::::The problem boils down to placement on the page. We could easily get around this by deciding on a set placement for the spoiler template. That would let us work around, but not actually solve the base issue.

::::It appears that the writing in the spoiler tag accounts for the image and line-breaks appropriately, but when it does so it no longer accounts for its own template image. This happens in IE as well as Firefox.

::::Additionally, in Firefox, when the wording line-breaks, the border box fails to shorten itself so that it matches the end of the writing, and instead extends across the screen presumably to the end. This only happens in Firefox and, at least once, Opera. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 13:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

== Categories in redirects ==

Is there a reason that we have categories on redirect pages? I can sort of understand the reason behing it, as G1 Prime isn't an e-hobby exclusive but Orion Pax is. Yes, the article is (indrectly) on the category page, but the actual article is not in the category. This means that you can get to say, Spiderman from the "Journalists" category, you can't go the other way because Spidy isn't the journalist; Peter Parker is. You wouldn't even know the category existed from looking at the Spidy page.

I propose a fix for this. All categories from character redirect pages get moved to the character's article. Others, like where a [[Kolkular|city]] redirects to the [[Kaon|city-state]] it's part of, the city get it's own article. If [[Telemark VI]], which got nothing more than a passing mention, is important enough to get its own article, so is Kolkular. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::Anyone? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I see no problem with having [[Rodimus (G1)]], [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Hot Rod]], and [[Rodimus Major]] all being in the Autobots category. I don't care if they're not all individual articles. If someone wants to look for one of those, they shouldn't have to already know to only look for [[Hot Rod]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: This is more about when a redirect is in a category and the actual article isn't. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't have a problem with that either! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Movie/nonmovie parsing==
On a few different topics, the problem has come up that the movie -- which is arguably the central, primary feature of the franchise -- spells or parses words one way, but ''all other aspects'' of the franchise spell/parse the word another way. The examples I'm thinking of are AllSpark/All Spark, Brawl/Devastator, and NBE with "entity" versus "extraterrestrial". And I think there are one or two more. I feel like whatever solution we pick, we should stick with the ''same'' solution for all words where this has come up. My personal inclination is to use the dominant words even if that is not what the movie itself goes with. I see the movie's different usage as an inconsistency or aberration, even though all the other fiction is descended from it. However, I don't feel all that strongly about it. I mostly just feel that we need to apply the same logic to each case, whatever that logic ends up being. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well, of course the movie nomenclature is wrong. It's not real. The ARG says so. :)
:Seriously, though, I do agree, and I think Brawl/Devastator is the archetypal example. Every single damn thing - from toys to games to comics - calls him "Brawl" except the ONE time he's named in the movie, and even Hasbro calls that instance a "continuity glitch." And since he's such a hi-then-die, there's very little chance of his "Devastator" legacy perpetuating into the sequels. So the current situation - where we mention "Devastator" as a side-note and then move right along - is ideal and should be the model for all such nomenclature issues.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::If I recall, one of the upcoming issues of the UK movie comic, probably #2, is all about Devastator. And they called him Devastator in the solicits. Before the movie came out, we were all STUPID FURMAN THAT IS BRAWL NOT DEVASTATOR YOU FOOL, but oh how wrong we were. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::It was we who were the poor fools. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Their entire kingdom, united or otherwise, is dead to me. You hear me? DEAD. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::But then who would write every single Transformers story ever? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Timelines==
I want to create a category for the various timelines we've got here, but I'm not sure what to call it or where to put it. [[:Category:Timelines]] is already taken since we have a franchise by that name. Additionally, one of the timelines we have is a real-world timeline of the TF brand, rather than a timeline for a fictional universe. That means the timeline category should not be a subcategory under some fiction-releated category. (I was initially going to put it right under [[:Category:Stories]] (which by the way still needs a real name)). Any thoughts on these issues? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well I'd suggest maybe [[:Category: Chronology]] since Timelines is taken. Put that as a sub-category of Transformers in general if it must be under something else, and then put the individual timelines also under the category of their own franchieses (of course) and the real world one under just Transformers or create a Real World category for it and pages like it.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 19:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

==Oh the Humanity==
Would it be possible to use less anthropocentric metaphor and phraseology when speaking/writing/describing the mechanoid denizen of a planet/empire not based on or around the carbon atom,and by extension human or fleshling life? [[User:ChoHIlqoq|ChoHIlqoq]] 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
* I.E. "cut his teeth" "bloodthirsty" and other such terminology,fine if you're depicting Maximals or Predacons,but the Old Cybertronians it's not especially fitting or accurate.
: But Transformers do have teeth, which is supported by countless, well, pictures of Transformers with teeth. From Optimus Prime to Longtooth, these robots gots teeth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see any problem with it... If you prefer to use more colorful robot-ish figures of speech, feel free to do so, as long as you don't make up any non-canonical robot anatomy. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 13:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:The Wiki is written <i>for humans.</i> Trying to eliminate human-anatomy-based phrasing is senseless. If a word like "bloodthirsty" is wrong because robots don't have blood, well, it's wrong for humans too because most "bloodthirsty" people aren't actually thirsty for the taste of blood. But when you're communicating to a specific audience, it's okay and even preferable to use the idioms <i>of that audience,</i> no matter their literal accuracy. They're idioms, so they probably aren't literally accurate in <i>any</i> circumstance.
:And personally, I find "robotic" reworkings of English phrases to be kind of annoying. What the hell does "oilthirsty" mean? I don't begrudge people for doing that (it certainly has quite a history in TF fiction), but it's always read more awkwardly to me than leaving metaphors as-is.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

== No love for Oceania? ==

Something I've noticed in the G1 Toylists is a) there's only lists of releases in the US and Europe and b) many figures are incorrectly being referred to as "European exclusives" - Australia got /everything/ Europe did - Classics, Overlord, Motorvators, AM Elites, Turbomasters, Predators, Pyro/Clench and their crews etc. - in the same years as Europe. So is it planned to create a list for Australian releases, and can we correct this whole "European exclusive" nonsense that's been going on for so long?

(I know no one really cares about Australia, but still..)
--[[User:Specimen-17|Specimen-17]]
:From the "Europe-only characters" category page...<br>
:''"Europe-only" is a bit of a misnomer, as many of the characters' toys listed here have also seen release in Canada, Australia, and parts of Asia. However, as the primary market for these items is the European market, it is used as a general umbrella-term. (Obviously, this caveat doesn't apply to the comic characters)''
: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

==Character page quotes==
Some people are clearly fond of the new "putting a representative quote at the top of character pages" thing, but I am against it. A recent rash of additional quotes only makes me feel this more strongly. My objection is that the quotes are highly visible/prominent on the page, as if they are supposed to embody the character in one sentence, and yet the choice of what quote accomplishes this task is ''highly'' subjective. Some of them I think are appropriate (although even the good ones add very little to the article that the capsule didn't already cover), and [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Rhinox_%28BW%29&diff=93878&oldid=89901 others I think are abysmal]. I don't think that policing them and getting rid of the bad ones is enough. I think they all need to go. Otherwise the existence of ''some'' quotes will only lead to quote-bastarding and disagreements. Anonymous editors will constantly be putting up their favorite stupid quote, uncited and with mangled grammar. People will change existing fine quotes into no-more-fine quotes that they personally like better. It's not worth the trouble. Am I the only one thinking this? If so, I will just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of you deal with it, but on the off chance that people agree with me I wanted to raise the issue. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
:Uh... isn't that also a problem with EVERYTHING ELSE on the wiki, due to the very nature of wikis? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::I'm an admin over at Wookieepedia, where we're very liberal with quotes, so I haven't got a problem it. Granted, I'm used to seeing them at the top of the page, but that's not a big thing. Also, I've added a few quotes from time to time, so my neutrality on it might be debated. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::Well... no, it's ''not'' a problem with everything else. Not in practice, at least. We know from experience that image captions are more prone to annoying edits than other parts of the wiki, for example. They seem to make tempting targets. And the majority of the content here is ''not'' subjective, or at least nowhere near as subjective as "this quote is the quintessential essence of this character", and therefore much less of a (potential) hassle. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:I admit, I've started a few articles with quotes- but not character pages I think. It's just so ''rare'' that you have a quote that serves as the perfect intro point for an article.
:Would a MoS for <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> saying ti shouldn't be used to lead-off na article unless it's actually a good jump-off point solve the problem? (It would give a firm justification to delete sucky ones, or ones where the quote isn't inteegrated intot eh flow of the write-up.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe it's just that I grew up on G1 [[tech spec]] cards, but I ''like'' character quotes as part of a character profile. I'd personally stick to ones that had them on their bio cards, but given that we ''are'' a '''Transformers''' wiki above all else, stylistically it seems to fit.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:The problem there is that the quotes went away for a long time. Also, for characters with multiple toys... which quote? You'd end up with major characters pretty quoteless. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

As the guy who put "These fools worship Transformers!" on the [[Fandom]] page, I think there are some quotes that in context are frankly too good not to use. I strongly disagree with the idea that there must be a blanket policy forbidding all of them anywhere. I think the choices should be ad hoc, dependant on how well the quotes clearly personify the characters ("Make deals, not war," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings") or pithily speak to events or locations (as per the Wookiepedia example, "wretched hive of scum and villainy"). Snipping away inappropriate quotes should be no more or less significant than snipping away poor writing or unsupportable conclusions. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 02:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
: The last part is my basic point. It's not like we're actually creating MORE whatever to be policed. It's the same shit we go through every hour, only with a certain template involved. I like the quotes, as noted above it's a very TF-y thing to have, plus presents a little nugget of information in a new, eye-catching way. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::We demonstrably ''are'' "creating more". We are adding a new "piece" that will be appearing in a lot of articles. As to the appropriateness, I agree that it's a neat idea, but I still feel that in practice it is not shaping up. I just did a count of character articles using the quote template for top-of-the-article shoutouts, and well over half of those are, in my opinion, weak to poor choices, and I'm not simply counting ones that were put up by random IPs. I think the quote for [[Falcia]], for example, is marginal. Maybe I'm interpreting the "point" of the quotes differently than you guys, but, I thought the idea was to pick something especially evocative, but a lot of them right now are simply memorable or "cute" lines that say little or nothing about the character. (I think I only read Linkage once, but judging from Falcia's capsule bio, I would think a quote that shows her to be unambiguously difficult would be far more appropriate than one in which she is seemingly giving an attitude ''justifiably''.) My biggest fear, I suppose, is that people will get it into their heads that character articles "should" have a quote, because I really can not believe there is a decent sum-up quote for every, or even most characters unless we are just going to plaigerize their tech spec or MTMTE mottos. I would love to go on a deleting spree and zap over a dozen of them right now, but I know that some users -- most notably Sipher -- ''really'' like the quote idea. That's why I decided to speak up and whine rather than just doing it. I am hoping that I might get some sort of concession like, "sure, you can delete the ones that are bad or so-so". Then at least all we'd have left to discuss is why I think so many of them are bad or so-so and should be deleted. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, Rhinox's is clearly a piece of shit. I have no problem with discussing quote quality/appropriateness and deleting stuff that doesn't live up. Just because I like having quotes, doesn't mean I'm gonna like every quote someone barfs up. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::::If there are enough people who don't mind - or do enjoy - keeping an eye on quotes and policing them for taste, then I don't see the problem. As with the captions, a community-wide sense of appropriateness will emerge. When done well, a quote can add a lot to an article, and like Siph, I think a baby-with-the-bathwater approach is too much. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template 'expiration' length==
Is there a length to how long a spoiler template stays up on a page? Til the end of the miniseries, til it comes out on DVD, [['Til all are one]]? Or is it situational? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, I'd almost like the creation of a new category like [[:Category:Articles with spoilers]] to allow us to track which articles are using the template at a glance. It'd make removing the template once the spoilers become common knowledge much easier to police.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::That could be easily and automatically done by altering the spoiler template to add the category. However, it's not really necessary, because you can also visit [[Template:Spoiler]] and use the "what links here" link in the toolbox on the left to get a list of every page which includes it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
:::I'd previously suggested an edit to the comingsoon template so that if you put it in as <tt><nowiki>{{comingsoon|~~~~~}}</nowiki></tt> (5 ~'s = a timestamp) it would say "This subject will be free for adding on..." (A date 30 days hence, or whatever we decide is a default spoiler time.) If you fail to supply a timestamp it'd just show the general 'don't put up yet' with no time mentioned.
:::We could do the same to the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> template that would (I think) cause it to vanish after that date had past.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spotlight image==
Okay. So, check this out...<br>
[[Image:SpotlightScreenGrab.jpg]]<br>
I'm guessing what they do is grab the Main Page image and just use that... which means that if we want all three Optimusses in there... we need to change THAT image to be more of a square.<br>
[[Image:T1-ThreeOpsMain.jpg|200px]]
<br>
I'd done this to go up in the Spotlight at a smaller size, but it looks like they just kipe the main image. Thoughts on using this as the main image so Primal is still there, the "proper" name for the wiki is there, etc? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:That might be risky, depending on how they crop it. It's hard to tell where the top half of their letterboxing ends. If the new image is too tall, then the edges of the words will get chopped off. Might be worth asking the admins about - if they can give you the ratio they use, then we can do it safely. (I'm looking at the "Pushing Daisies Wiki" spotlight right now, and the non-letterboxed area is definitely wider than it is tall.)
:Also, we need to be sure that the new design will actually be readable and decent-looking when shrunk down that far. One thing to keep in mind is that if the caption already says "Transformers Wiki," then there's no need to repeat that in the image. If the pic just said "Teletraan I" and nothing more, then that'd help prevent the design from getting too crowded.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::I've already accounted for all of that. Not every Spotlight image has that hideous textbar on it; the "Symbolism Wiki", for example, is nothing BUT an image. They only apparently use textbars if "______ wiki" is not in the image itself, or hard to read, or not sufficiently square, or whatever. I noted the size of the box in pixels when making the image; the shrunk-down-to-actual-size version is already uploaded here;<br>
::[[Image:Tel1-SpotlightBox.jpg]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Well then. Sounds good to me! - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::::Of course, it could be just our luck and they'll take the lovingly-resized image and re-crop it and add redundant text...--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 21:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Messagebox placement==
Here is what [[Jetfire (Armada)|UT Jetfire's article]] now looks like in my browser:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb234/sstoneb/misc/boxes.png

I understand that people are more prone to notice and be guilted into fixing things if the messagebox notices are at the top, but I feel that the presentation of the articles shouldn't be made to suffer for it. I consider it unacceptable for two-thirds of the first screen to be taken up by boxes. There's going to be some variation depending on readers' screen resolutions and window sizes, but still, I can't be the only one who finds that excessive. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 06:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:I consider it motivation to fix the problem, myself. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 07:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, I run my monitor on a fairly high resolution so I forget it would be huge on lower resolutions. I'll move the stub back down, but the point still stands - having an annoying stub messagebox there compels one to finish off the damn article to get rid of it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to horizontally compress the stub/picsneeded messageboxes and make it so they will line up vertically? Taking up only one "line" and minimizing blank space? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:Wikipedia seems to only use image messageboxes when it's a pressing or immediate need. Other messageboxes are all-text, short, and designed to take up as little space as possible. (They're also designed to stack neatly with no whitespace in-between.)
:Under such a modern- a template like Cleanup or Deletion might remain a pic box, bot other general-maintenance templates like 'pics needed' would become (ironically) pic-less. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== How will we cover VHS and DVD releases? ==

How are we going to cover the various VHS and DVD releases of the cartoons? Are we going to limit those to the pages of the companies who released them or have pages covering each series with dections for the release market?
We definently need something to list what is different on various releases, especially that the recent Madman release of G1 uses Mavrick's transfer for at least Season 1 (which in turn uses the original broadcast video with Rhino's 5.1 audio) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 19:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
:I'd say that [[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)]] is a decent example of a good way to do it, as is the [[Scramble City]] page. For the individual animated series, release details can be covered on their specific series page. So things like [[Armada (cartoon)]], [[Beast Wars (cartoon)]] etc. Seems to me to be the most logical place to look for that release information and any key differences in transfers/dubbing/wombat placement.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 19:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

== Animated Continuity Confusion ==

So, throughout this wiki we refer to the Sunbow cartoon as the "Animated continuity". Given that the upcoming cartoon is specifically titled "Transformers Animated", and that we're using "Animated" as the franchise marker for it, this has the potential for causing confusion. So, I'd like to recommend that we change all extant headers that read "Animated continuity" to "Sunbow cartoon continuity" or similar. Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 15:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:Um, IIRC, the term "Animated continuity" which is now in use by this Wiki refers to "G1 animated continuities", including "Sunbow cartoon continuity" and "Toei animation continuity (Japanese animation continuity)". [[User:TX55|TX55]] 15:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Since [[Sunbow]] doesn't have a page, I'm personally a little unclear on what their role in the creation of the G1 cartoon was. However, regardless of what we call it, I still think we need a change from "Animated continuity" to another term. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::How 'bout "G1 cartoon(<small>or ''animation''</small>) continuity"? And it should be clearly defined. But if the original term "Animated continuity" really changed into a new term, wow, I would be a big reconstruction, though. --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, we'd have a bot do it, I assume. Turning every occurence of "<nowiki>===Animated continuity===</nowiki>" into something else would be trivial for a bot, and 99% accurate. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::It strikes me as needless, as characters with fiction in the Sunbow cartoon are unlikely to also have continuity in the new cartoon. We are for these purposes treating the new cartoon's characters as new characters in their own right, just as Optimus Prime is a different character in the RiD and UT settings.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Oops, I can't believe I forgot. (my God...). --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::''It strikes me as needless'' While in any page that is clearly within a given continuity, there will only be a minor chance for confusion, there will be much greater change of confusion on the many pages that cover cross-continuity topics. (Or, for example, if someone on a G1 page wants to refer to ''Transfomrers Animated'' for whatever reason.) Simply put: Since we've chosen "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', this means that the term "Animated continuity" should probably only be used refer to the ''Transformers Animated'' continuity. (Or, maybe we shouldn't use "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', but it might be too late for that.) [[User:JW|JW]] 16:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Similar discussion on this issue has been had before on this Wiki, though I can't seem to find where. Just to point it out, we don't use "animated continuity" ''just'' to refer to the G1 cartoon. It's used on UT character pages as well. I am thinking it may be wise to go ahead and just have that phrase replaced with "cartoon continuity." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
: Excellent point. Yah, "Cartoon continuity" would do the trick. (Until the day there's a TV series called ''Transformers: The Cartoon,'' at least.) [[User:JW|JW]] 20:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: 'Cartoon' was also the conclusion we reached last round of this discussion.
:: So do we want to make it aa formal request for the 'bot to change all instances of '==Animated continuity==' to 'Cartoon continuity'? (Except probably with regular expressions.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Let's give this thread a chance to attract more comments (say, until tomorrow afternoon), and then request it. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I'm in favor of "Cartoon continuity." The only objection I recall seeing was Walky pointing out that "cartoon" has multiple meanings besides animation. But I think the common usage in TFdom is strong enough that it'll do fine. The only alternative I can think of is something like "Televised continuity," but that's an unnatural term. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Issues Naming Convention ==

Okay, so [[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] and I have gone back and forth on this, so I'm putting it out in the open. He's lobbying for the format to be "Comic Name (issue number)" with the issue number only being there if it's a multi-part story. Personally, I don't care what the spotted heck we use as long as we use the same format for all the comic issues. Thus to get this noticed and foster discussion, here it is. Ideally once we decide something, it'd be great if we could get Walky or Suki to bot-edit everything so we're over and done with that.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:My reasoning is this: The title of the issue is not "Escalation, part 1", it's merely the first part of the title "Escalation". Also I don't care is we use "Escalation (part 1)", "Escalation (issue 1)" or "Escalation (#1)" as long as we're consistent. Please see my talk page for the conversation with Rosicrucian. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 00:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I'm a little reluctant to make a universal rule on this sort of thing. Contrary to MistaTee's statement, sometimes the title of a story really ''is'' "Blah blah, Part 1". However, in cases where there is no known title (like most of the IDW issues), I think "Series Name issue #" would be best, much like what we already have for the [[:Category:Dreamwave Armada issues|Dreamwave Armada]] series (except that, of course, normally the publisher's name wouldn't be in the title, it's only there for Armada to differentiate from the Panini series). It doesn't feel right to me to have a comma or a set of parentheses. That's the model I would prefer for the IDW minis. In cases of a multi-part story which has a known title and takes place in a series of a different title, but the individual parts do not have titles, we can't use the word "issue". So... then I guess either "Story Name, part #" or "Story Name (part #)" is cool with me. I guess I have a slight preference for the comma approach, since it mirrors the way multi-part stories are titled when they are actually given titles. I agree with MistaTee that decapitalizing "part" in those cases is more correct, although it's not an issue that engenders any passion within me. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::That actually makes a fair amount of sense to me. If we consider that we're treating these as multi-part stories similar to the way they are in the animated series episode summaries, it does follow that it would be "Infiltration, part 1" and so forth in absence of specific issue titles. It works for the miniseries issues, at the least.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 15:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I've sorta grown a fondness toward "issue", since each individual comic IS an issue of a larger title or miniseries. I also favor the parentheses since the word "issue" is not part of the title. When the TPB is released for Escalation, for example, it is not separated by "issue" or "part", etc, it's a free flowing story. Therefore it's simply "''Escalation'' (issue 1)". Now if the issue itself actually uses the word "part" or whatever (as in the UK strips for example) then I have no problem using it. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 16:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't think a an article title like "Escalation issue 3" causes any confusion -- the word issue and numeral 3 are clearly not part of the comic's title. It's just saying that the article is about the third issue of Escalation: "{Name of a comic series} issue {issue number}". Parentheticals in article titles, to me, are meant to differentiate between multiple entities that have the same name. The various issues of Escaltion do not have the same name -- they have no names at all. "Escalation issue 3" then is a purely descriptive article title which doesn't imply anything about the title of that issue. "Escalation, part 3" avoids my parantheses concern and would be acceptable to me (it is of the form "{Name of a multipart story}, part {part number}"), but I'd rather we explicitly refer to issues as issues when possible. In self-analysis I can't think of a reason for that preference, so it may be arbitrary. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Art from unknown issues ==
Just wondering if we need a new template/category like "''issues?''" and "Category:Images from unknown issue" to present [[:Image:Sunstreaker avatar.PNG|some]] [[:Image:Landmine funny face.jpg|comic arts]] from unknown issues, like the way we use "''artist?''" --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 03:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree. I'd suggest also making a discussion page on the images in question so we can ask... but questions here tend to go unanswered in my experience. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:I've created [[Template:Unknown source]] to satisfy this request. I made it applicable to all images, not just comic scans. Please feel free to make use of it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::Wow! Thanks a lot, appreciate that. :D --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 02:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

==Accessory listing?==
[[Nautilator_%28G1%29#Generation_1|Nautilator's toy-entry...]]<br>
Just an idle thought I had. Bullet-pointing the ID numbers seems like a good idea, and I've been thinking it can't hurt to have a simple rundown of the stuff the toy came with, using the "proper" names for the weapons whenever available, with links when necessary, like for special weapons of which there are more than one (Blaster's not the only one packing an electro-scrambler, right?). Most of the G1 instructions for that kind of this can be found on Botch's site... thoughts? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:Looks good to me. BTW, what are your thoughts on the comic book naming convention (2 comments up). --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 10:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::I don't have one, not really my field. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::Accessory listings would be a good thing to have. TFU.info and Cobra Island Toys are about the only places that have the weapon names in text. We should probably include the entire list as according to the instructions, including the robot. The only snags I can think of is when different markets had different accessories (Headstrong and Tantrum had only one gun in Japan), when there is no mention of an accessory in any of the printed material (Megatron's chrome gun), or when reissues came with additional parts (Ricochet, TFC Megatron and Prime). --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, unnamed accessories can be unquoted, decapitalized short descriptors (chromed handgun, for example). International accessory variants can simply be another bullet point (''Accessories (US)'' vs ''Accessories (Japan)''). As for reissues... shouldn't those be listed separately from the originals ANYWAY? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, I'm not going to split the entry for Prime's first toy into the umpteen reissues it's had. Why must Takara insist on another reissue every few years? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== Lead/Led ==

There are two different words pronounced "lehd":
* "led", the past tense of "to lead", as in , "Yesterday, Optimus ''led'' his troops to victory."
* "lead", a heavy gray metal. (Well, it's blue-white when not exposed to oxygen, but that's neither here nor there.)
All over this wiki, editors are using "lead" where they mean "led". Please keep an eye open for this mistake. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

:Another common mistake I see a lot is capitalizing "The" when talking about the ''Ark'', the Matrix, etc. <br>And speaking of the ''Ark'', spaceships, like seagoing ships, should be italicized, unless of course it is a living Transformer like Astrotrain or Seaspray. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 14:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

::What about ''[[Astrotrain (G1)#IDW_Hearts_of_Steel_continuity|the Astrotrain]]''? :P -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:::One of the great mysteries of HoS is whether Astrotrain is a Transformer or just a high-tech train. I decided to assume he's a Transformer (i.e., a person), and omitted the "the" wherever possible. If we go with that assumption, no italics for him. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Unrelated, but it reminds me of how I keep trying to decide if the TFs in Hearts of Steel are actually adopting some of the technology level of the world they find themselves in. You got Scourge with a gasbag, Bumblebee being fired by coal, Ravage taken out by an exploding gas stove... it seems similar to the TF/Joe book where WWII robots have all these random loose wires dangling around and Rumble can be taken out with a grenade. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

== Mini-Series main page format ==
Okay, so I've been poking around, looking at the main page for [[Stormbringer]], [[Infiltration]], [[Escalation]], [[Hearts of Steel]], and many others. Every single one has a different format. I mean it -- like, no two are alike! These things need a common format and a general clean-up campaign.
Stormbringer's probably closest to what the format "should" be, though the summary breaks the 4th wall and having two bolded lines in succession looks kinda funny to me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed, these do need a common format and cleanup. Let's get one right and work from there. Since Stormbringer seems to be the closest, let's work with that one. I removed the one-liner, as it didn't really seem necessary, and added some headers to separate things out. Also added the picsneeded template, as we definitely need need the TPB cover. Perhaps the manga cover can be added in the collections section and maybe a pic from the bonus art can be added somewhere. An "Items of note" section would be helpful as well.
:--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 19:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. The Creative Team section should be kept really small, just writer and pencils I think, if even that, since each individual issue's going to have full credits. And I suppose the Overview section is a good place for the sort of outside-looking-in perspective on the fiction, ie "Headmasters follows the adventures of a new group of Transformers on Cybertron, whose toys were being introduced to the market blah blah." -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==Question about mass-produced "fan" toys==
Hi there, transfolkerinos.

Just a little thing that I though might prove vaguely controversial, so I thought I'd raise it here before unilaterally adding it and getting into a tiresome edit war with anyone.

Topic is: mass-produced non-Hasbro/Takara "Fan" toys, ala Unicron.Com's Golden Disc sets, Vector Sigma key (and other ''Beast Machines'' accessories) and ImpossibleToys' products such as the Diaclone-scale Sparkplug & Spike, Energon Cubes and the marvellous "Quint-01" Quintesson Judge Figure.

What I want to know is if I can add info on these products on the relevant pages, or if that's gonna disrupt some rule over official-ness. Before anyone gets too excited, I'll just say right off the bat that I'm proposing in each case to CLEARLY denote that they are non-official products, and they probably should even be listed separately in the "Triva" sections of each relevant page, to further distance them from listings of official products (although, in most cases, there ''aren't'' official versions. Which is kinda the point...).

The only argument against listing them that I can imagine is simply that, obviously, they're not official HasTak products and therefore, in a wacky kind of sense, "not canon". However, my argument ''for'' including them is threefold:

1] Unlike kitbashing or other customs, these items are mass-produced with high quality control, akin to an official product. (Yes, I ''know'' that unlicensed repros/knock-offs are mass-produced too, but the distinction here is that items like the Quintesson are original creations/moulds rather than substitutes for a previously-released product).

2] These products are all designed to represent accessories or characters from the fictions that had (hitherto) never been given official representations, thus filling a gap.

3] Perhaps most importantly, this stuff has been sold openly at BotCon in recent years, so even though the Collector's Club isn't personally hawking it, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that Hasbro is aware of this product and tacitly permits its sale and manufacture, when it could just as easily sue their asses for copyright infringement if they wanted to. The fact that they ''haven't'' and have actually let these companies sell their stuff at their official Con seems to me to be the rather meaningful turning of a rather large, not-so-blind eye. It also would rather seem to indicate that they have no immediate plans of their own to make official versions of this stuff (apart from Vector Sigma, years after Unicron.com did it), and are happy to let these well-set up little companies do their thing and keep the fans happy.

Anywayz, I just thought I'd float this here before adding to any of the pages myself. Let me know what y'all think.

Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

: No. No, no, and no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Um, okaaay. Care to elaborate? I reiterate my suggestion that these items be '''clearly''' marked as non-official, and that the descriptions be placed only in '''Trivia''' sections. May I ask what's the harm? [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
::: Part of the problem with including unofficial "bootleg" toys is that it opens the door for, well, all bootlegs. And that'd just be ridiculous. Ever been to a Big Lots? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::::No, can't say I have. I take it that's some North American chain?
::::Anyway, I do take your point. It ''would'' be ridiculous to include bootleg toys, I agree. But the very fact that we already have an article on [[Knockoff]]s (not to mention all manner of "ridiculous" minutiae of fan-lifesyle. [[Seafood Louis]] anyone? [[Blastification]]? All very amusing, but hardly "official") suggests to me that we should be capable of ''some'' restrained mention of '''prominent''' fan-manufactured items.
::::And again, can't we draw some distinction between knock-offs of existing official products and completely original works based on major fiction-only characters & objects? I really don't see the harm in discreet mentions of clearly-acknowledged-as-unofficial products when they've been mass-marketed at Habsro's own offical Con. Surely you'd concede that there's a GULF of difference between that and this "Big Lots" place...?
::::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
:::::Yes, but ''those'' articles are confined to their respective pages. You were proposing listing unofficial merchandise on the relevant pages. (Under the Quintesson page, etc.)
:::::We'd probably still resist adding an 'unofficial toys' page because it'd quickly degenerate into "what qualifies as...", but I bet you'd have more luck proposing ''that''.
:::::(We ''should'' have a page where we can stick the Action Master Breakdown, WST Dinobots and the Star Saber Minicon recolors... we've just kida avoided it because it seems like a collosal headache waiting to happen.) Reemember- if you start such a page pick a clear standard about what's mass-produced 'enough' to qualify. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's a compromise position I was going to fall back on, yes.

Would it really be such a crapfest, though? I dunno, maybe I'm a little more ignorant of this topic than I thought, but what sort of "ridiculous" stuff do you think people are going to want to include? In terms of mass-produced, wholly original fan-made products (as opposed to knockoffs of existing HasTak prods), is there ''really'' all that much out there other than Unicron.com, ImpossibleToys and JustIToys? For all I know, there is. Please, in all seriousness; fill me in.

I think if we could agree on an adequately-defined page name & definition, we should be okay. How about something like: "Fan-manufactured toys" with a '''clear''' intro stating something along the lines of:

"As distinct from [[Knockoff]]s of existing products or one-off/made-to-order [[kitbash]]es, Fan-manufactured toys are mass-produced, high quality toys which feature completely original tooling/sculpts, intended to fill gaps in the official Hasbro/Takara product line, such as major characters like [[Spike Witwicky]] and the [[Quintesson]]s, as well as significant accessores, such as [[The Key to Vector Sigma]], hitherto appearing only in fiction. Although explicitly unofficial and in some cases sold under copyright-skirting product names, these toys are carried by major online distributors of Transformers product like BigBadToystore.com and are prominently sold at [[BotCon]], Hasbro's official Transformers convention, seemingly indicating a degree of tacit approval."

I agree there would be bit of definitional wrangling over something like WST Dinobots... yeah. But, again, is there ''really'' all that much out there, and is there really that much of a grey area between blatant knockoffs and these lovingly-designed, original creations for the fan-market? Surely work of this nature deserves a place on a wiki that has so many articles about its own fandom...?

I'd be keen to hear a few more opinions. I don't want to sound snarky, but it seems that whenever I raise things around here I'm always talking to the same 4 or 5 chaps. Not that I wish to malign their opinions in any way, I'd just really appreciate hearing from the wider editorial community. Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

:Sorry, I'm a pattern-finder so I tend to track policy issues and form interpretations of the principles, ideals, morals, conflicts and opinions that underly a wide variety unrelated decisions, and then freely project where new issues fall within that gestalt. (The head of the theology department was heartbroken I didn't want to make it my major.)
:I just don't think we have a lot of users interested/comfortable discussing abstract or hypothetical metapolicy. We tend to 'discover' our policies via precedent (people not liking something when it's done) not the Socratic method, which is wasteful-- but very American. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::Fair enough! :-)
::So, in other words, are you saying that there's in fact very ''little'' point in me "doing the right thing" by raising this topic for discussion here, and that'd I'd do better to simply blunder ahead unilaterally, create the page and potentially invite a catfight, since that's the only way to get most users' attention?
::Also; what's ''your'' opinion of the proposed article title and definition/lead-off from my last post, though?
::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
:No. Some of these things are nice, but unless they're stamped by Hasbro or Takara, I say no go. It's not a big jump from the Golden Disks to the WST Dinobots (which, as I understand it, Aaron Archer has been trying to get shut down) to the Jizaitoys Cyclonus and Wheelie to fucking Zobovor's repaints of RID toys into G1 dudes for his friend's basement-con. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::Okay. So, you reckon even an isolated page is not kosher? I'm sorry, but I just don't see the harm. I mean, if we were all formality nazis like at Wookieepeia I could understand, but when we have articles on [[Seafood Louis]]...! I just don't get it. Why is this such a no-go? [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2007-10-25T11:04:51Z

220.239.53.20: /* Question about mass-produced "fan" toys */

==Archives==
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive5]]

==Improvement drives and new templates?==
So some brief perusal of Wookieepedia showed me a few things they do that could really be co-opted here, both to make the site look better and be a litlte more functional.

EDIT: Example page was changed -- M Sipher, who is having problems with "loss of session data" on this motherfucker and it's really starting to piss him off.

I like the idea of an "improvement drive", taking a dedicated focus on certain areas... some sections really DO need work. I think some of the more confusing and semiforgotten eras of TF fiction or toylines should really get fleshed out and soon, like the RID show, Enegon cartoon (ugh), late-G1 characters, Omega Point, etc.

And then there's the templates they use. I like the use of images and quotes. Looking through their bigass template section [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Templates], there are a lot we don't need, but a few might be good, like the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Image image] and [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Argument argument] templates, plus the aforementioned improvement drive template. And [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:SIP this one is just awesome.]

Also, we should totally add an image of a Quint with death-face forward for the "marked for deletion" template.

Just a few suggestions. Let's discuss. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
: I like the 'Bobba Fet, where?' template... do you have a thought on an equivalent sentiment/piccie for TF? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:: Something with Reflector, natch. Alternately, "Hot Rod, look! There's a hole in the <s>shuttle!</s> article!" Also, we probably need to work the various generations of TF in across the board. Use some RiD, some UT, some G1, etc. Mix it up. Have Vector Prime for the "upcoming events" template, maybe the Ratchet/Megatron monster for "this article is self-contradicting." (alternately, Galvatron vs. Megatron). [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 02:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Oh man, for a page that's had a lot of debate, use cartoon Galvatron, with "Well, all I have to say about that is... BWAAAAAAAH." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: Not Dinobot and "Again your democracy fails us"? (paraphrasing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

===Tech-spec template===
The tech-spec numbers, I think, should be archived, but people kept wanting to put them in the main profile section, which is not where they need to be. Then it hit me... why not at each toy's description? You know, where the TS numbers specifically apply? Maybe after the ID number...

{| border="1" style="text-align:center"
|-
| '''STR''' || '''INT''' || '''SPD''' || '''END''' || '''RNK''' || '''CRG''' || '''FRP''' || '''SKL'''
|-
| 7 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 5 || 9 || 7 || 7
|-
|}

Just a thought. It's info that we probably really SHOULD archive. If someone wants to make this prettier, feel free. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:I'm out for the weekend, but I'll take a stab at it when I get back, hopefully some format that remains small and un-annoying even if you have multiple stats. (I doubt you'd list ALL of Optimus Prime's, but you'd probably list the original, and his G2 spec where he's Rank 9...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think a Wiki is far from the best format for archiving tech spec numbers. I agree that such information should be archived, somewhere, it already is archived in many places, and in dedicated lists and databases that are way, way better for that sort of data. I'm not going to say that it's a "bad" idea to include them here, but I think it should be a low priority. Certainly below things like writing articles for cartoon episodes and comic issues. Anyway, I do agree that if we include them at all they should be included in the "toys" section since many characters have more than one set of numbers depending on which toy you're looking at. Also, any template we make for them should have switches in it that can change FRP to FRB and also trade in the Mincromaster teamwork/coop stats. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Good thought, both on the location and the optionals. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Oh, I'm not about to go on some huge TS# update spree, don't get me wrong. There are certainly a load of things I think would take higher priority (like that whole more-colorful-header thing brought up a while back). But I'm just thinking it's a piece of info that can be somewhat unobtrusively added to a relevant section, might be worth looking into at some point. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::There are some UK exclusives with little to say abotu them BUT their tech-specs. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Also, the LOCs. Having the numbers there would also help fill some of the vertical space to prevent messes like [[Jetfire#Classics|what we see with Jetfire's page]]. The "Attacktix" sub-section really needs to be "page-breaked", but doing so will levae a LOT of blank space. A TS number addition would solve that nicely. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

i was looking at wookipedia and saw on the search toolbar that they had a wookie on top of it. could we do something like that with bumblebee on it.also it would be cool to have a background for the site like mabey cybertron or a picture of an autobot decepticon gen 1 battle, or just a big autobot logo.

==A little more color?==
Just an idle thought. Is there a way to tweak the colors of the picture thumbnail borders? Like, say, for a Decepticon character page, their pictures would be bordered with a pale purple, while the Autobots would have light red... and uh... blue for humans? Green for Quints and miscellaneous aliens? Black with white text for Unicron?<br>
Yeah, it's functionally pointless and a lot of "going over old pages" work, but the graphic design part of me is screaming for a little more visual "oomph", and since TFs don't lend themselves well to the kind of "core data table" whatchamadoozie you find on most other character-centric wikis... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 10:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We've started to hash this out, and I've constructed a [[User:Suki Brits/Nightbeat|mock-up of the idea.]] Also see the talk page, for M Sipher's proposal on colours. If you have any thoughts, please post them, as this is obviously a MASSIVE sweeping change to what the wiki will look like. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 02:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
how do you do that?-grimlocker

==Sitename==
So, like, this is completely frivolous in the large scheme of things, but it's always sort of bothered me. I don't like the name of this wiki! I mean, even beyond us needing to get it spelled right when you type <nowiki>{{SITENAME}}</nowiki>, I just don't think it's a very apt one. Now, Teletraan I could answer just about anything on the cartoon, so long as it was pertinent to the plot, but it never struck me as a Repository of All Transformers Knowledge. There are at least two much better options.

#[[Vector Sigma]] -- It apparently knows everything, in addition to all manner of other qualities
#[[Underbase]] -- A dedicated Transformers knowledge database.

Now, of the two, I vastly prefer Underbase, firstly because scores of fan sites already use "Vector Sigma." (The same problem is present with "Teletraan I.") And secondly, it sets up all sorts of jokes about how too much knowledge about Transformers leads to madness or death. Ha ha ha.

Anyway, I mostly wanted to get that off my chest. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, but. At this point, the Teletraaanagh-eleven name is pretty much associated with the wiki. Rebranding your product right after it's finally starting to get name recognition in the fandom seems like kind of a dumb idea.[[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:I agree that Teletraan I is not the coolest possible name for this wiki, but I think Hooper_X is right that it's too late to change it. It's certainly an adequate name, and honestly it has much broader recognition than your other suggestions, which is probably a good thing. Pretty much anybody that knows anything about Transformers will recognize the name Teletraan I. Most of those same people will have never read or heard of the Underbase story and probably won't remember the name Vector Sigma either. The name we have is good enough. Also, I imagine getting the SITENAME variable changed is as simple a matter as leaving a note on [[Wikia:User:Angela]]'s talk page. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

yah i dont like the site name either.we could call it "autobots roll out!" the transformers wiki.

== "Sunbow universe" ==

I've noticed a number of pages that mention the "Sunbow universe" of the "Sunbow portion of the G1 continuity family" or pictures that state the source as anepisode of the "Sunbow cartoon". I remember a discussion about this awhile back, and I seem to remember that we decided against calling the the G1 cartoon the "sunbow" anything, as there was only one G1 cartoon that didn't already have another title, and there's about as much stuff in there that wasn't done by Sunbow anyway (most of it it Japanese fiction, but still...) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
:Oh yeah, that's usually me (since I prefer the exact terminology.) I haven't been doing it since we had that discussion I think, just had a brain-fart today. So, uh, yeah, you're right, we did decide that. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

== Botcon 2007 Battle of the Boards ==

From Brian:
"Faction Feud â€“ The Battle of the Boards

This Transformer trivia game show pits different Transformers web sites
against each other in the battle for all Transformers knowledge.
Faction Feud was a huge hit at BotCon 2006, so donâ€™t miss out on the
chance to compete this year! There are eight slots available for this
tournament so sing up ASAP! It will truly be a battle of wits!
How to enter: email Christie@mastercollector.com with your web
siteâ€™s URL and the 5 names and screen names of your 5-member team. Deadline
to enter: June 1, 2007."

We need to do this. I'd like to volunteer, but I realize I haven't been the most active contributor to the wiki. I'll step aside if need be. I just want to see Team TFWiki happen.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:Can we argue collaboratively about the answers before arriving at a consensus? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
::Doubtful. But maybe we can find a way to work awful jokes into our answers. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I wish to hell I could get in on this one. Oh well. Maybe next year. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

We need to go ahead and submit our entry. I volunteer, and I need 4 more players. Who's with me? Who will give up the power to transform to... wait, no. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 01:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You can count on me / Though I know not UT. --[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You absolutely do NOT want me on your team, since I don't know crap, but if it's down to four people and nobody else will step up, I'll totally do it.
:At the very least, I will totally get some pom pons going. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 01:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:I am... willing. But there would be plenty of better choices than me. I guess the contest seemed pretty easy last year, so I could probably perform well, but Walky, Sipher, and LV would all be way better than I. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Graham, Sipher, and I would also be way better than you if they use the same questions as last year. 'Cuz, y'know, we wrote them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::That's probably reason enough for you three to bow out, I guess. We'll get by.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:Ah... sure, why not. I'll sign up. Someone will need to keep an eye on me near gametime so that I don't forget to show up, though. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Sweet. That makes 5, but I'll give it another day. If anyone else wants in, or someone on the team changes their mind, let us know.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Ah hell, I'll toss my hat in too. If necessary, I'm totally happy being a B-list sub in case someone who already volunteered or is just plain more knowledgeable than me bows out. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I've sent the e-mail! After a little bit of discussion, we ended up with me, Rotty, Steve-O, Monzo, Jackpot, and Blitz as our alternate. This is gonna be great. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
: The deadline has come and gone. Other sites have received their confirmations; we have not. So... apparently we're not in? A polite "piss off" e-mail would have been preferable to just not hearing ANYTHING... [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, good job, everybody who actually ended up on the team when they let us in at the last minute. (Who was in the lineup, again?) It would've been damned embarrassing if the Wiki had been out-trivia-ed, so thanks for doing us proud. I think we need that photo of Monz with all the medals on the BC07 page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Titles for characters with multiple names==

I want to predicate this by admitting that at some level it doesn't matter at all because of the existence of article redirects.

In looking over the recent changes, I noticed the [[Wing Dagger]] article, and wondered why, if our rule for characters who got new bodies with new names is that we list them under the name they first appeared in-fiction with (such as [[Hot Rod]] and [[Overhaul (Cybertron)]], the Wing Dagger article is a redirect. Walky said it had been discussed at some point and decided to do "name of the first TOY". I found mention of this on [[Talk:Overhaul (Cybertron)]] where LV seems to basically settle on that after realizing that all the more sensible options lead to conclusions we seemed to have already violated.

Currently, [[Help:Article types and titles]] says, "Characters with multiple names (as in the case of alter-egos) should have their article listed under their most prominent name..." Leaving aside the issue that prominence is ambiguous for a few characters, this seems, to me, to be by far the best option. Our wiki has developed into something ''HIGHLY'' fiction/character centered. The toys are almost an afterthought. Basing something as seemingly fundamental as what to name a character's article on what name happened to be applied to their first toy is totally out of left field.

I admit that the first-toy rule would be unambiguous and solve nearly all the tricky cases (I sort of have a problem with Overhaul/Leobreaker, but not a huge problem). However, it still feels ''wrong'' to me. In principle, some canon source could state that a character who is extremely visible in some franchise was a new body for some random no-fiction toy character from the previous franchise, and we would end up listing them under their old and irrelevant name for perpetuity. It pains me to replace the phrase "most prominent name" with "name applied to their first toy". It's not a rule that has any logic or sense behind it. It's a kludge that happens to solve most of the practical problems but doesn't fit my idea of the "spirit" of the wiki.

I would appreciate hearing suggestions/comments from other editors.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

:I agree completely. The fact of the matter is that TF fiction is a patchwork of ambiguities, contradictions, dangling threads, and irregularities. Oftentimes there just CAN'T be hard-and-fast rules; we have to bite the bullet and accept that the only logical option is to allow for subjectivity. In this specific case, the standard has to be "prominence." Sure, such a thing might lead to arguments and fights and what-have-you with no clear Law to arbitrate, but that's what we get for putting together a wiki on Transformers of all things. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

==Template for continuity organization?==
Is there a page somewhere that lays out a standard for how the continuities are grouped? Like, one massive article filled with headers and subheads for every possible universe, which families they're under, and what order they should go in? Because I'm a little confused as to the specifics sometimes, such as in [[Talk:Megatron_%28BW%29#Continuity|this discussion]], but that died with no resolution. It seems like a good idea to have a template-page where we can hash out the details. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

==Toy-photo policy?==
What's our policy on toy photos, officialness- and copyright-wise? I imagine pics from Hasbro's site and publications are preferable, like how we only use Hasbro-approved art and never fanart. But what about shots from places like [http://www.toybin.org/list.php Toybin] and [http://www.tfu.info/ TFU.info] and Remy's photos and all the galleries of the various TF-news sites and so on? I've certainly seen such photos in articles, but I've also seen people discourage the use of specific sites' images (like TFU.info). What's the principle at work here? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, my principle is "TFU.info's images look horrible and have depict toys which are sometimes fan-painted and have stickers all over the wrong places sideways." Also, I think as a general rule of thumb for the wiki, the background of a toy photo should be white. Not "you can see the unwhitebalanced panels of cascaded posterboard in the background," but actual white. But these are just my thoughts! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::It seems like our policy is 'official is always good, if Hasbro's stock photos aren't too off, but if you're usign another source, they'd better look '''good''', and make sure you give them full credit with a link.' (Or at least that seems to be how we've handled it thus far...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I can agree to that. "Official toy photos are best, if they're the non-photoshop-retouched kind and the toy is transformed correctly and the paint apps are the same in the production version." If you can't get that, take your own. If you can't get that, steal! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Do we have a 'how to construct an Article' page? Not just format- but 'places you should really look for information, link to, etc'?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::Cool, thanks for the input. The one other time I've seen discussion on the matter (I don't recall which article it was in), someone was discouraging use of TFU.info pics because that site exists almost entirely to show photos. So swiping photos from there seems more like intellectual-property "damage" than if you take from, say, the more diversified [http://www.seibertron.com/toys/index.php Seibertron.com]. Thoughts on that? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::: I'm pretty sure I was part of that convo. And yes, Seibertron is my theftable-of-choice even though their pictures tend to have blacks a bit too sweet (Remy is second,) in that case IIRC I swiped from TFU because they had ''just'' the right angle I needed to highlight something. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

==Archival time==
I'm moving everything that hasn't seen a reply in two months into the archive. If you still want a topic raised on this page, don't hesitate to either start it again, or copy it back here. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 20:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template==
[[User:FFN|FFN]] fixed a glitch the other day with [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy's]] spoiler template overlapping his picture quote. I just found [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee's]] the same way. [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade's]] page has an odd manifestation where the template doesn't overlap anything important, but it does cover the top edge of his picture. It then, presumably because of the picture, line-breaks inside the template, causing the Jazz image to cover the words of the template.

I brought this up in the channel, and Walky said it looked fine on his screen. So I checked it in IE (I normally use Firefox), and it looked fine there, too...

So I'm not going to go altering a bunch of pages just because of something on my screen, but I want to put this out there to see if anyone else has the problem. Apparantly FFN did at least once. It appears to be browser-related, and I'm not sure what the precedent is on that situation. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 17:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:I've got that same exact problem with the Barricade page, using Firefox. Looking at it with IE, the spoiler template doesn't overlap the picture of Barricade there, but the beginning of "follow" in its text is still covered over by Jazz. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::It's a result of the spoiler template being after the picture- and the main bod doesn't get shoved left properly. I feel liek there should be a solution to that... I'll look at it, but for the mo ment, if you just move the spoiler template ABOVE the picture, the problem disappears. (This may actually be a problem with Firefox's float implementation, neither browser does layout 100% spot-on perfect.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:It [http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/misc/spoiler-template.png looks awful] in Opera, too. In both Opera and Firefox, I'm not seeing any words covered up. It's just that crazy wrapping thing happening. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

::That's exactly how it looks in Firefox on my computer. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 22:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Hrm, done with pure styles, the messagebox stays behind, but somethign with the wikipmedia's messagebox styles (which were intended to be banners across the tops of articles) doen't play nice with floats.
:::Since Spoiler and some other templates are frequently used mid-stream, it looks like we (I) need a separate approach for these mid-stream templates. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::::[[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout's]] is REALLY bad... but only in Firefox, again. It has some glitches in IE, but they aren't as obstructing to the article itself.

::::The problem boils down to placement on the page. We could easily get around this by deciding on a set placement for the spoiler template. That would let us work around, but not actually solve the base issue.

::::It appears that the writing in the spoiler tag accounts for the image and line-breaks appropriately, but when it does so it no longer accounts for its own template image. This happens in IE as well as Firefox.

::::Additionally, in Firefox, when the wording line-breaks, the border box fails to shorten itself so that it matches the end of the writing, and instead extends across the screen presumably to the end. This only happens in Firefox and, at least once, Opera. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 13:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

== Categories in redirects ==

Is there a reason that we have categories on redirect pages? I can sort of understand the reason behing it, as G1 Prime isn't an e-hobby exclusive but Orion Pax is. Yes, the article is (indrectly) on the category page, but the actual article is not in the category. This means that you can get to say, Spiderman from the "Journalists" category, you can't go the other way because Spidy isn't the journalist; Peter Parker is. You wouldn't even know the category existed from looking at the Spidy page.

I propose a fix for this. All categories from character redirect pages get moved to the character's article. Others, like where a [[Kolkular|city]] redirects to the [[Kaon|city-state]] it's part of, the city get it's own article. If [[Telemark VI]], which got nothing more than a passing mention, is important enough to get its own article, so is Kolkular. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::Anyone? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I see no problem with having [[Rodimus (G1)]], [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Hot Rod]], and [[Rodimus Major]] all being in the Autobots category. I don't care if they're not all individual articles. If someone wants to look for one of those, they shouldn't have to already know to only look for [[Hot Rod]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: This is more about when a redirect is in a category and the actual article isn't. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't have a problem with that either! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Movie/nonmovie parsing==
On a few different topics, the problem has come up that the movie -- which is arguably the central, primary feature of the franchise -- spells or parses words one way, but ''all other aspects'' of the franchise spell/parse the word another way. The examples I'm thinking of are AllSpark/All Spark, Brawl/Devastator, and NBE with "entity" versus "extraterrestrial". And I think there are one or two more. I feel like whatever solution we pick, we should stick with the ''same'' solution for all words where this has come up. My personal inclination is to use the dominant words even if that is not what the movie itself goes with. I see the movie's different usage as an inconsistency or aberration, even though all the other fiction is descended from it. However, I don't feel all that strongly about it. I mostly just feel that we need to apply the same logic to each case, whatever that logic ends up being. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well, of course the movie nomenclature is wrong. It's not real. The ARG says so. :)
:Seriously, though, I do agree, and I think Brawl/Devastator is the archetypal example. Every single damn thing - from toys to games to comics - calls him "Brawl" except the ONE time he's named in the movie, and even Hasbro calls that instance a "continuity glitch." And since he's such a hi-then-die, there's very little chance of his "Devastator" legacy perpetuating into the sequels. So the current situation - where we mention "Devastator" as a side-note and then move right along - is ideal and should be the model for all such nomenclature issues.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::If I recall, one of the upcoming issues of the UK movie comic, probably #2, is all about Devastator. And they called him Devastator in the solicits. Before the movie came out, we were all STUPID FURMAN THAT IS BRAWL NOT DEVASTATOR YOU FOOL, but oh how wrong we were. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::It was we who were the poor fools. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Their entire kingdom, united or otherwise, is dead to me. You hear me? DEAD. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::But then who would write every single Transformers story ever? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Timelines==
I want to create a category for the various timelines we've got here, but I'm not sure what to call it or where to put it. [[:Category:Timelines]] is already taken since we have a franchise by that name. Additionally, one of the timelines we have is a real-world timeline of the TF brand, rather than a timeline for a fictional universe. That means the timeline category should not be a subcategory under some fiction-releated category. (I was initially going to put it right under [[:Category:Stories]] (which by the way still needs a real name)). Any thoughts on these issues? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well I'd suggest maybe [[:Category: Chronology]] since Timelines is taken. Put that as a sub-category of Transformers in general if it must be under something else, and then put the individual timelines also under the category of their own franchieses (of course) and the real world one under just Transformers or create a Real World category for it and pages like it.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 19:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

==Oh the Humanity==
Would it be possible to use less anthropocentric metaphor and phraseology when speaking/writing/describing the mechanoid denizen of a planet/empire not based on or around the carbon atom,and by extension human or fleshling life? [[User:ChoHIlqoq|ChoHIlqoq]] 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
* I.E. "cut his teeth" "bloodthirsty" and other such terminology,fine if you're depicting Maximals or Predacons,but the Old Cybertronians it's not especially fitting or accurate.
: But Transformers do have teeth, which is supported by countless, well, pictures of Transformers with teeth. From Optimus Prime to Longtooth, these robots gots teeth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see any problem with it... If you prefer to use more colorful robot-ish figures of speech, feel free to do so, as long as you don't make up any non-canonical robot anatomy. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 13:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:The Wiki is written <i>for humans.</i> Trying to eliminate human-anatomy-based phrasing is senseless. If a word like "bloodthirsty" is wrong because robots don't have blood, well, it's wrong for humans too because most "bloodthirsty" people aren't actually thirsty for the taste of blood. But when you're communicating to a specific audience, it's okay and even preferable to use the idioms <i>of that audience,</i> no matter their literal accuracy. They're idioms, so they probably aren't literally accurate in <i>any</i> circumstance.
:And personally, I find "robotic" reworkings of English phrases to be kind of annoying. What the hell does "oilthirsty" mean? I don't begrudge people for doing that (it certainly has quite a history in TF fiction), but it's always read more awkwardly to me than leaving metaphors as-is.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

== No love for Oceania? ==

Something I've noticed in the G1 Toylists is a) there's only lists of releases in the US and Europe and b) many figures are incorrectly being referred to as "European exclusives" - Australia got /everything/ Europe did - Classics, Overlord, Motorvators, AM Elites, Turbomasters, Predators, Pyro/Clench and their crews etc. - in the same years as Europe. So is it planned to create a list for Australian releases, and can we correct this whole "European exclusive" nonsense that's been going on for so long?

(I know no one really cares about Australia, but still..)
--[[User:Specimen-17|Specimen-17]]
:From the "Europe-only characters" category page...<br>
:''"Europe-only" is a bit of a misnomer, as many of the characters' toys listed here have also seen release in Canada, Australia, and parts of Asia. However, as the primary market for these items is the European market, it is used as a general umbrella-term. (Obviously, this caveat doesn't apply to the comic characters)''
: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

==Character page quotes==
Some people are clearly fond of the new "putting a representative quote at the top of character pages" thing, but I am against it. A recent rash of additional quotes only makes me feel this more strongly. My objection is that the quotes are highly visible/prominent on the page, as if they are supposed to embody the character in one sentence, and yet the choice of what quote accomplishes this task is ''highly'' subjective. Some of them I think are appropriate (although even the good ones add very little to the article that the capsule didn't already cover), and [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Rhinox_%28BW%29&diff=93878&oldid=89901 others I think are abysmal]. I don't think that policing them and getting rid of the bad ones is enough. I think they all need to go. Otherwise the existence of ''some'' quotes will only lead to quote-bastarding and disagreements. Anonymous editors will constantly be putting up their favorite stupid quote, uncited and with mangled grammar. People will change existing fine quotes into no-more-fine quotes that they personally like better. It's not worth the trouble. Am I the only one thinking this? If so, I will just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of you deal with it, but on the off chance that people agree with me I wanted to raise the issue. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
:Uh... isn't that also a problem with EVERYTHING ELSE on the wiki, due to the very nature of wikis? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::I'm an admin over at Wookieepedia, where we're very liberal with quotes, so I haven't got a problem it. Granted, I'm used to seeing them at the top of the page, but that's not a big thing. Also, I've added a few quotes from time to time, so my neutrality on it might be debated. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::Well... no, it's ''not'' a problem with everything else. Not in practice, at least. We know from experience that image captions are more prone to annoying edits than other parts of the wiki, for example. They seem to make tempting targets. And the majority of the content here is ''not'' subjective, or at least nowhere near as subjective as "this quote is the quintessential essence of this character", and therefore much less of a (potential) hassle. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:I admit, I've started a few articles with quotes- but not character pages I think. It's just so ''rare'' that you have a quote that serves as the perfect intro point for an article.
:Would a MoS for <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> saying ti shouldn't be used to lead-off na article unless it's actually a good jump-off point solve the problem? (It would give a firm justification to delete sucky ones, or ones where the quote isn't inteegrated intot eh flow of the write-up.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe it's just that I grew up on G1 [[tech spec]] cards, but I ''like'' character quotes as part of a character profile. I'd personally stick to ones that had them on their bio cards, but given that we ''are'' a '''Transformers''' wiki above all else, stylistically it seems to fit.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:The problem there is that the quotes went away for a long time. Also, for characters with multiple toys... which quote? You'd end up with major characters pretty quoteless. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

As the guy who put "These fools worship Transformers!" on the [[Fandom]] page, I think there are some quotes that in context are frankly too good not to use. I strongly disagree with the idea that there must be a blanket policy forbidding all of them anywhere. I think the choices should be ad hoc, dependant on how well the quotes clearly personify the characters ("Make deals, not war," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings") or pithily speak to events or locations (as per the Wookiepedia example, "wretched hive of scum and villainy"). Snipping away inappropriate quotes should be no more or less significant than snipping away poor writing or unsupportable conclusions. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 02:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
: The last part is my basic point. It's not like we're actually creating MORE whatever to be policed. It's the same shit we go through every hour, only with a certain template involved. I like the quotes, as noted above it's a very TF-y thing to have, plus presents a little nugget of information in a new, eye-catching way. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::We demonstrably ''are'' "creating more". We are adding a new "piece" that will be appearing in a lot of articles. As to the appropriateness, I agree that it's a neat idea, but I still feel that in practice it is not shaping up. I just did a count of character articles using the quote template for top-of-the-article shoutouts, and well over half of those are, in my opinion, weak to poor choices, and I'm not simply counting ones that were put up by random IPs. I think the quote for [[Falcia]], for example, is marginal. Maybe I'm interpreting the "point" of the quotes differently than you guys, but, I thought the idea was to pick something especially evocative, but a lot of them right now are simply memorable or "cute" lines that say little or nothing about the character. (I think I only read Linkage once, but judging from Falcia's capsule bio, I would think a quote that shows her to be unambiguously difficult would be far more appropriate than one in which she is seemingly giving an attitude ''justifiably''.) My biggest fear, I suppose, is that people will get it into their heads that character articles "should" have a quote, because I really can not believe there is a decent sum-up quote for every, or even most characters unless we are just going to plaigerize their tech spec or MTMTE mottos. I would love to go on a deleting spree and zap over a dozen of them right now, but I know that some users -- most notably Sipher -- ''really'' like the quote idea. That's why I decided to speak up and whine rather than just doing it. I am hoping that I might get some sort of concession like, "sure, you can delete the ones that are bad or so-so". Then at least all we'd have left to discuss is why I think so many of them are bad or so-so and should be deleted. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, Rhinox's is clearly a piece of shit. I have no problem with discussing quote quality/appropriateness and deleting stuff that doesn't live up. Just because I like having quotes, doesn't mean I'm gonna like every quote someone barfs up. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::::If there are enough people who don't mind - or do enjoy - keeping an eye on quotes and policing them for taste, then I don't see the problem. As with the captions, a community-wide sense of appropriateness will emerge. When done well, a quote can add a lot to an article, and like Siph, I think a baby-with-the-bathwater approach is too much. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template 'expiration' length==
Is there a length to how long a spoiler template stays up on a page? Til the end of the miniseries, til it comes out on DVD, [['Til all are one]]? Or is it situational? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, I'd almost like the creation of a new category like [[:Category:Articles with spoilers]] to allow us to track which articles are using the template at a glance. It'd make removing the template once the spoilers become common knowledge much easier to police.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::That could be easily and automatically done by altering the spoiler template to add the category. However, it's not really necessary, because you can also visit [[Template:Spoiler]] and use the "what links here" link in the toolbox on the left to get a list of every page which includes it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
:::I'd previously suggested an edit to the comingsoon template so that if you put it in as <tt><nowiki>{{comingsoon|~~~~~}}</nowiki></tt> (5 ~'s = a timestamp) it would say "This subject will be free for adding on..." (A date 30 days hence, or whatever we decide is a default spoiler time.) If you fail to supply a timestamp it'd just show the general 'don't put up yet' with no time mentioned.
:::We could do the same to the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> template that would (I think) cause it to vanish after that date had past.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spotlight image==
Okay. So, check this out...<br>
[[Image:SpotlightScreenGrab.jpg]]<br>
I'm guessing what they do is grab the Main Page image and just use that... which means that if we want all three Optimusses in there... we need to change THAT image to be more of a square.<br>
[[Image:T1-ThreeOpsMain.jpg|200px]]
<br>
I'd done this to go up in the Spotlight at a smaller size, but it looks like they just kipe the main image. Thoughts on using this as the main image so Primal is still there, the "proper" name for the wiki is there, etc? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:That might be risky, depending on how they crop it. It's hard to tell where the top half of their letterboxing ends. If the new image is too tall, then the edges of the words will get chopped off. Might be worth asking the admins about - if they can give you the ratio they use, then we can do it safely. (I'm looking at the "Pushing Daisies Wiki" spotlight right now, and the non-letterboxed area is definitely wider than it is tall.)
:Also, we need to be sure that the new design will actually be readable and decent-looking when shrunk down that far. One thing to keep in mind is that if the caption already says "Transformers Wiki," then there's no need to repeat that in the image. If the pic just said "Teletraan I" and nothing more, then that'd help prevent the design from getting too crowded.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::I've already accounted for all of that. Not every Spotlight image has that hideous textbar on it; the "Symbolism Wiki", for example, is nothing BUT an image. They only apparently use textbars if "______ wiki" is not in the image itself, or hard to read, or not sufficiently square, or whatever. I noted the size of the box in pixels when making the image; the shrunk-down-to-actual-size version is already uploaded here;<br>
::[[Image:Tel1-SpotlightBox.jpg]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Well then. Sounds good to me! - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::::Of course, it could be just our luck and they'll take the lovingly-resized image and re-crop it and add redundant text...--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 21:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Messagebox placement==
Here is what [[Jetfire (Armada)|UT Jetfire's article]] now looks like in my browser:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb234/sstoneb/misc/boxes.png

I understand that people are more prone to notice and be guilted into fixing things if the messagebox notices are at the top, but I feel that the presentation of the articles shouldn't be made to suffer for it. I consider it unacceptable for two-thirds of the first screen to be taken up by boxes. There's going to be some variation depending on readers' screen resolutions and window sizes, but still, I can't be the only one who finds that excessive. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 06:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:I consider it motivation to fix the problem, myself. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 07:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, I run my monitor on a fairly high resolution so I forget it would be huge on lower resolutions. I'll move the stub back down, but the point still stands - having an annoying stub messagebox there compels one to finish off the damn article to get rid of it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to horizontally compress the stub/picsneeded messageboxes and make it so they will line up vertically? Taking up only one "line" and minimizing blank space? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:Wikipedia seems to only use image messageboxes when it's a pressing or immediate need. Other messageboxes are all-text, short, and designed to take up as little space as possible. (They're also designed to stack neatly with no whitespace in-between.)
:Under such a modern- a template like Cleanup or Deletion might remain a pic box, bot other general-maintenance templates like 'pics needed' would become (ironically) pic-less. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== How will we cover VHS and DVD releases? ==

How are we going to cover the various VHS and DVD releases of the cartoons? Are we going to limit those to the pages of the companies who released them or have pages covering each series with dections for the release market?
We definently need something to list what is different on various releases, especially that the recent Madman release of G1 uses Mavrick's transfer for at least Season 1 (which in turn uses the original broadcast video with Rhino's 5.1 audio) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 19:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
:I'd say that [[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)]] is a decent example of a good way to do it, as is the [[Scramble City]] page. For the individual animated series, release details can be covered on their specific series page. So things like [[Armada (cartoon)]], [[Beast Wars (cartoon)]] etc. Seems to me to be the most logical place to look for that release information and any key differences in transfers/dubbing/wombat placement.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 19:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

== Animated Continuity Confusion ==

So, throughout this wiki we refer to the Sunbow cartoon as the "Animated continuity". Given that the upcoming cartoon is specifically titled "Transformers Animated", and that we're using "Animated" as the franchise marker for it, this has the potential for causing confusion. So, I'd like to recommend that we change all extant headers that read "Animated continuity" to "Sunbow cartoon continuity" or similar. Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 15:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:Um, IIRC, the term "Animated continuity" which is now in use by this Wiki refers to "G1 animated continuities", including "Sunbow cartoon continuity" and "Toei animation continuity (Japanese animation continuity)". [[User:TX55|TX55]] 15:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Since [[Sunbow]] doesn't have a page, I'm personally a little unclear on what their role in the creation of the G1 cartoon was. However, regardless of what we call it, I still think we need a change from "Animated continuity" to another term. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::How 'bout "G1 cartoon(<small>or ''animation''</small>) continuity"? And it should be clearly defined. But if the original term "Animated continuity" really changed into a new term, wow, I would be a big reconstruction, though. --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, we'd have a bot do it, I assume. Turning every occurence of "<nowiki>===Animated continuity===</nowiki>" into something else would be trivial for a bot, and 99% accurate. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::It strikes me as needless, as characters with fiction in the Sunbow cartoon are unlikely to also have continuity in the new cartoon. We are for these purposes treating the new cartoon's characters as new characters in their own right, just as Optimus Prime is a different character in the RiD and UT settings.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Oops, I can't believe I forgot. (my God...). --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::''It strikes me as needless'' While in any page that is clearly within a given continuity, there will only be a minor chance for confusion, there will be much greater change of confusion on the many pages that cover cross-continuity topics. (Or, for example, if someone on a G1 page wants to refer to ''Transfomrers Animated'' for whatever reason.) Simply put: Since we've chosen "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', this means that the term "Animated continuity" should probably only be used refer to the ''Transformers Animated'' continuity. (Or, maybe we shouldn't use "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', but it might be too late for that.) [[User:JW|JW]] 16:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Similar discussion on this issue has been had before on this Wiki, though I can't seem to find where. Just to point it out, we don't use "animated continuity" ''just'' to refer to the G1 cartoon. It's used on UT character pages as well. I am thinking it may be wise to go ahead and just have that phrase replaced with "cartoon continuity." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
: Excellent point. Yah, "Cartoon continuity" would do the trick. (Until the day there's a TV series called ''Transformers: The Cartoon,'' at least.) [[User:JW|JW]] 20:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: 'Cartoon' was also the conclusion we reached last round of this discussion.
:: So do we want to make it aa formal request for the 'bot to change all instances of '==Animated continuity==' to 'Cartoon continuity'? (Except probably with regular expressions.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Let's give this thread a chance to attract more comments (say, until tomorrow afternoon), and then request it. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I'm in favor of "Cartoon continuity." The only objection I recall seeing was Walky pointing out that "cartoon" has multiple meanings besides animation. But I think the common usage in TFdom is strong enough that it'll do fine. The only alternative I can think of is something like "Televised continuity," but that's an unnatural term. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Issues Naming Convention ==

Okay, so [[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] and I have gone back and forth on this, so I'm putting it out in the open. He's lobbying for the format to be "Comic Name (issue number)" with the issue number only being there if it's a multi-part story. Personally, I don't care what the spotted heck we use as long as we use the same format for all the comic issues. Thus to get this noticed and foster discussion, here it is. Ideally once we decide something, it'd be great if we could get Walky or Suki to bot-edit everything so we're over and done with that.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:My reasoning is this: The title of the issue is not "Escalation, part 1", it's merely the first part of the title "Escalation". Also I don't care is we use "Escalation (part 1)", "Escalation (issue 1)" or "Escalation (#1)" as long as we're consistent. Please see my talk page for the conversation with Rosicrucian. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 00:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I'm a little reluctant to make a universal rule on this sort of thing. Contrary to MistaTee's statement, sometimes the title of a story really ''is'' "Blah blah, Part 1". However, in cases where there is no known title (like most of the IDW issues), I think "Series Name issue #" would be best, much like what we already have for the [[:Category:Dreamwave Armada issues|Dreamwave Armada]] series (except that, of course, normally the publisher's name wouldn't be in the title, it's only there for Armada to differentiate from the Panini series). It doesn't feel right to me to have a comma or a set of parentheses. That's the model I would prefer for the IDW minis. In cases of a multi-part story which has a known title and takes place in a series of a different title, but the individual parts do not have titles, we can't use the word "issue". So... then I guess either "Story Name, part #" or "Story Name (part #)" is cool with me. I guess I have a slight preference for the comma approach, since it mirrors the way multi-part stories are titled when they are actually given titles. I agree with MistaTee that decapitalizing "part" in those cases is more correct, although it's not an issue that engenders any passion within me. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::That actually makes a fair amount of sense to me. If we consider that we're treating these as multi-part stories similar to the way they are in the animated series episode summaries, it does follow that it would be "Infiltration, part 1" and so forth in absence of specific issue titles. It works for the miniseries issues, at the least.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 15:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I've sorta grown a fondness toward "issue", since each individual comic IS an issue of a larger title or miniseries. I also favor the parentheses since the word "issue" is not part of the title. When the TPB is released for Escalation, for example, it is not separated by "issue" or "part", etc, it's a free flowing story. Therefore it's simply "''Escalation'' (issue 1)". Now if the issue itself actually uses the word "part" or whatever (as in the UK strips for example) then I have no problem using it. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 16:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't think a an article title like "Escalation issue 3" causes any confusion -- the word issue and numeral 3 are clearly not part of the comic's title. It's just saying that the article is about the third issue of Escalation: "{Name of a comic series} issue {issue number}". Parentheticals in article titles, to me, are meant to differentiate between multiple entities that have the same name. The various issues of Escaltion do not have the same name -- they have no names at all. "Escalation issue 3" then is a purely descriptive article title which doesn't imply anything about the title of that issue. "Escalation, part 3" avoids my parantheses concern and would be acceptable to me (it is of the form "{Name of a multipart story}, part {part number}"), but I'd rather we explicitly refer to issues as issues when possible. In self-analysis I can't think of a reason for that preference, so it may be arbitrary. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Art from unknown issues ==
Just wondering if we need a new template/category like "''issues?''" and "Category:Images from unknown issue" to present [[:Image:Sunstreaker avatar.PNG|some]] [[:Image:Landmine funny face.jpg|comic arts]] from unknown issues, like the way we use "''artist?''" --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 03:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree. I'd suggest also making a discussion page on the images in question so we can ask... but questions here tend to go unanswered in my experience. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:I've created [[Template:Unknown source]] to satisfy this request. I made it applicable to all images, not just comic scans. Please feel free to make use of it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::Wow! Thanks a lot, appreciate that. :D --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 02:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

==Accessory listing?==
[[Nautilator_%28G1%29#Generation_1|Nautilator's toy-entry...]]<br>
Just an idle thought I had. Bullet-pointing the ID numbers seems like a good idea, and I've been thinking it can't hurt to have a simple rundown of the stuff the toy came with, using the "proper" names for the weapons whenever available, with links when necessary, like for special weapons of which there are more than one (Blaster's not the only one packing an electro-scrambler, right?). Most of the G1 instructions for that kind of this can be found on Botch's site... thoughts? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:Looks good to me. BTW, what are your thoughts on the comic book naming convention (2 comments up). --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 10:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::I don't have one, not really my field. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::Accessory listings would be a good thing to have. TFU.info and Cobra Island Toys are about the only places that have the weapon names in text. We should probably include the entire list as according to the instructions, including the robot. The only snags I can think of is when different markets had different accessories (Headstrong and Tantrum had only one gun in Japan), when there is no mention of an accessory in any of the printed material (Megatron's chrome gun), or when reissues came with additional parts (Ricochet, TFC Megatron and Prime). --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, unnamed accessories can be unquoted, decapitalized short descriptors (chromed handgun, for example). International accessory variants can simply be another bullet point (''Accessories (US)'' vs ''Accessories (Japan)''). As for reissues... shouldn't those be listed separately from the originals ANYWAY? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, I'm not going to split the entry for Prime's first toy into the umpteen reissues it's had. Why must Takara insist on another reissue every few years? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== Lead/Led ==

There are two different words pronounced "lehd":
* "led", the past tense of "to lead", as in , "Yesterday, Optimus ''led'' his troops to victory."
* "lead", a heavy gray metal. (Well, it's blue-white when not exposed to oxygen, but that's neither here nor there.)
All over this wiki, editors are using "lead" where they mean "led". Please keep an eye open for this mistake. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

:Another common mistake I see a lot is capitalizing "The" when talking about the ''Ark'', the Matrix, etc. <br>And speaking of the ''Ark'', spaceships, like seagoing ships, should be italicized, unless of course it is a living Transformer like Astrotrain or Seaspray. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 14:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

::What about ''[[Astrotrain (G1)#IDW_Hearts_of_Steel_continuity|the Astrotrain]]''? :P -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:::One of the great mysteries of HoS is whether Astrotrain is a Transformer or just a high-tech train. I decided to assume he's a Transformer (i.e., a person), and omitted the "the" wherever possible. If we go with that assumption, no italics for him. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Unrelated, but it reminds me of how I keep trying to decide if the TFs in Hearts of Steel are actually adopting some of the technology level of the world they find themselves in. You got Scourge with a gasbag, Bumblebee being fired by coal, Ravage taken out by an exploding gas stove... it seems similar to the TF/Joe book where WWII robots have all these random loose wires dangling around and Rumble can be taken out with a grenade. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

== Mini-Series main page format ==
Okay, so I've been poking around, looking at the main page for [[Stormbringer]], [[Infiltration]], [[Escalation]], [[Hearts of Steel]], and many others. Every single one has a different format. I mean it -- like, no two are alike! These things need a common format and a general clean-up campaign.
Stormbringer's probably closest to what the format "should" be, though the summary breaks the 4th wall and having two bolded lines in succession looks kinda funny to me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed, these do need a common format and cleanup. Let's get one right and work from there. Since Stormbringer seems to be the closest, let's work with that one. I removed the one-liner, as it didn't really seem necessary, and added some headers to separate things out. Also added the picsneeded template, as we definitely need need the TPB cover. Perhaps the manga cover can be added in the collections section and maybe a pic from the bonus art can be added somewhere. An "Items of note" section would be helpful as well.
:--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 19:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. The Creative Team section should be kept really small, just writer and pencils I think, if even that, since each individual issue's going to have full credits. And I suppose the Overview section is a good place for the sort of outside-looking-in perspective on the fiction, ie "Headmasters follows the adventures of a new group of Transformers on Cybertron, whose toys were being introduced to the market blah blah." -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==Question about mass-produced "fan" toys==
Hi there, transfolkerinos.

Just a little thing that I though might prove vaguely controversial, so I thought I'd raise it here before unilaterally adding it and getting into a tiresome edit war with anyone.

Topic is: mass-produced non-Hasbro/Takara "Fan" toys, ala Unicron.Com's Golden Disc sets, Vector Sigma key (and other ''Beast Machines'' accessories) and ImpossibleToys' products such as the Diaclone-scale Sparkplug & Spike, Energon Cubes and the marvellous "Quint-01" Quintesson Judge Figure.

What I want to know is if I can add info on these products on the relevant pages, or if that's gonna disrupt some rule over official-ness. Before anyone gets too excited, I'll just say right off the bat that I'm proposing in each case to CLEARLY denote that they are non-official products, and they probably should even be listed separately in the "Triva" sections of each relevant page, to further distance them from listings of official products (although, in most cases, there ''aren't'' official versions. Which is kinda the point...).

The only argument against listing them that I can imagine is simply that, obviously, they're not official HasTak products and therefore, in a wacky kind of sense, "not canon". However, my argument ''for'' including them is threefold:

1] Unlike kitbashing or other customs, these items are mass-produced with high quality control, akin to an official product. (Yes, I ''know'' that unlicensed repros/knock-offs are mass-produced too, but the distinction here is that items like the Quintesson are original creations/moulds rather than substitutes for a previously-released product).

2] These products are all designed to represent accessories or characters from the fictions that had (hitherto) never been given official representations, thus filling a gap.

3] Perhaps most importantly, this stuff has been sold openly at BotCon in recent years, so even though the Collector's Club isn't personally hawking it, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that Hasbro is aware of this product and tacitly permits its sale and manufacture, when it could just as easily sue their asses for copyright infringement if they wanted to. The fact that they ''haven't'' and have actually let these companies sell their stuff at their official Con seems to me to be the rather meaningful turning of a rather large, not-so-blind eye. It also would rather seem to indicate that they have no immediate plans of their own to make official versions of this stuff (apart from Vector Sigma, years after Unicron.com did it), and are happy to let these well-set up little companies do their thing and keep the fans happy.

Anywayz, I just thought I'd float this here before adding to any of the pages myself. Let me know what y'all think.

Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

: No. No, no, and no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Um, okaaay. Care to elaborate? I reiterate my suggestion that these items be '''clearly''' marked as non-official, and that the descriptions be placed only in '''Trivia''' sections. May I ask what's the harm? [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
::: Part of the problem with including unofficial "bootleg" toys is that it opens the door for, well, all bootlegs. And that'd just be ridiculous. Ever been to a Big Lots? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::::No, can't say I have. I take it that's some North American chain?
::::Anyway, I do take your point. It ''would'' be ridiculous to include bootleg toys, I agree. But the very fact that we already have an article on [[Knockoff]]s (not to mention all manner of "ridiculous" minutiae of fan-lifesyle. [[Seafood Louis]] anyone? [[Blastification]]? All very amusing, but hardly "official") suggests to me that we should be capable of ''some'' restrained mention of '''prominent''' fan-manufactured items.
::::And again, can't we draw some distinction between knock-offs of existing official products and completely original works based on major fiction-only characters & objects? I really don't see the harm in discreet mentions of clearly-acknowledged-as-unofficial products when they've been mass-marketed at Habsro's own offical Con. Surely you'd concede that there's a GULF of difference between that and this "Big Lots" place...?
::::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
:::::Yes, but ''those'' articles are confined to their respective pages. You were proposing listing unofficial merchandise on the relevant pages. (Under the Quintesson page, etc.)
:::::We'd probably still resist adding an 'unofficial toys' page because it'd quickly degenerate into "what qualifies as...", but I bet you'd have more luck proposing ''that''.
:::::(We ''should'' have a page where we can stick the Action Master Breakdown, WST Dinobots and the Star Saber Minicon recolors... we've just kida avoided it because it seems like a collosal headache waiting to happen.) Reemember- if you start such a page pick a clear standard about what's mass-produced 'enough' to qualify. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's a compromise position I was going to fall back on, yes.

Would it really be such a crapfest, though? I dunno, maybe I'm a little more ignorant of this topic than I thought, but what sort of "ridiculous" stuff do you think people are going to want to include? In terms of mass-produced, wholly original fan-made products (as opposed to knockoffs of existing HasTak prods), is there ''really'' all that much out there other than Unicron.com, ImpossibleToys and JustIToys? For all I know, there is. Please, in all seriousness; fill me in.

I think if we could agree on an adequately-defined page name & definition, we should be okay. How about something like: "Fan-manufactured toys" with a '''clear''' intro stating something along the lines of:

"As distinct from [[Knockoff]]s of existing products or one-off/made-to-order [[kitbash]]es, Fan-manufactured toys are mass-produced, high quality toys which feature completely original tooling/sculpts, intended to fill gaps in the official Hasbro/Takara product line, such as major characters like [[Spike Witwicky]] and the [[Quintesson]]s, as well as significant accessores, such as [[The Key to Vector Sigma]], hitherto appearing only in fiction. Although explicitly unofficial and in some cases sold under copyright-skirting product names, these toys are carried by major online distributors of Transformers product like BigBadToystore.com and are prominently sold at [[BotCon]], Hasbro's official Transformers convention, seemingly indicating a degree of tacit approval."

I agree there would be bit of definitional wrangling over something like WST Dinobots... yeah. But, again, is there ''really'' all that much out there, and is there really that much of a grey area between blatant knockoffs and these lovingly-designed, original creations for the fan-market? Surely work of this nature deserves a place on a wiki that has so many articles about its own fandom...?

I'd be keen to hear a few more opinions. I don't want to sound snarky, but it seems that whenever I raise things around here I'm always talking to the same 4 or 5 chaps. Not that I wish to malign their opinions in any way, I'd just really appreciate hearing from the wider editorial community. Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

:Sorry, I'm a pattern-finder so I tend to track policy issues and form interpretations of the principles, ideals, morals, conflicts and opinions that underly a wide variety unrelated decisions, and then freely project where new issues fall within that gestalt. (The head of the theology department was heartbroken I didn't want to make it my major.)
:I just don't think we have a lot of users interested/comfortable discussing abstract or hypothetical metapolicy. We tend to 'discover' our policies via precedent (people not liking something when it's done) not the Socratic method, which is wasteful-- but very American. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::Fair enough! :-)
::So, in other words, are you saying that there's in fact very ''little'' point in me "doing the right thing" by raising this topic for discussion here, and that'd I'd do better to simply blunder ahead unilaterally, create the page and potentially invite a catfight, since that's the only way to get most users' attention?
::Also; what's ''your'' opinion of the proposed article title and definition/lead-off from my last post, though?
::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2007-10-25T10:59:11Z

220.239.53.20: /* Question about mass-produced "fan" toys */

==Archives==
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive5]]

==Improvement drives and new templates?==
So some brief perusal of Wookieepedia showed me a few things they do that could really be co-opted here, both to make the site look better and be a litlte more functional.

EDIT: Example page was changed -- M Sipher, who is having problems with "loss of session data" on this motherfucker and it's really starting to piss him off.

I like the idea of an "improvement drive", taking a dedicated focus on certain areas... some sections really DO need work. I think some of the more confusing and semiforgotten eras of TF fiction or toylines should really get fleshed out and soon, like the RID show, Enegon cartoon (ugh), late-G1 characters, Omega Point, etc.

And then there's the templates they use. I like the use of images and quotes. Looking through their bigass template section [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Templates], there are a lot we don't need, but a few might be good, like the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Image image] and [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Argument argument] templates, plus the aforementioned improvement drive template. And [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Template:SIP this one is just awesome.]

Also, we should totally add an image of a Quint with death-face forward for the "marked for deletion" template.

Just a few suggestions. Let's discuss. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
: I like the 'Bobba Fet, where?' template... do you have a thought on an equivalent sentiment/piccie for TF? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:: Something with Reflector, natch. Alternately, "Hot Rod, look! There's a hole in the <s>shuttle!</s> article!" Also, we probably need to work the various generations of TF in across the board. Use some RiD, some UT, some G1, etc. Mix it up. Have Vector Prime for the "upcoming events" template, maybe the Ratchet/Megatron monster for "this article is self-contradicting." (alternately, Galvatron vs. Megatron). [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 02:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Oh man, for a page that's had a lot of debate, use cartoon Galvatron, with "Well, all I have to say about that is... BWAAAAAAAH." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
:::: Not Dinobot and "Again your democracy fails us"? (paraphrasing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

===Tech-spec template===
The tech-spec numbers, I think, should be archived, but people kept wanting to put them in the main profile section, which is not where they need to be. Then it hit me... why not at each toy's description? You know, where the TS numbers specifically apply? Maybe after the ID number...

{| border="1" style="text-align:center"
|-
| '''STR''' || '''INT''' || '''SPD''' || '''END''' || '''RNK''' || '''CRG''' || '''FRP''' || '''SKL'''
|-
| 7 || 6 || 6 || 6 || 5 || 9 || 7 || 7
|-
|}

Just a thought. It's info that we probably really SHOULD archive. If someone wants to make this prettier, feel free. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:I'm out for the weekend, but I'll take a stab at it when I get back, hopefully some format that remains small and un-annoying even if you have multiple stats. (I doubt you'd list ALL of Optimus Prime's, but you'd probably list the original, and his G2 spec where he's Rank 9...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think a Wiki is far from the best format for archiving tech spec numbers. I agree that such information should be archived, somewhere, it already is archived in many places, and in dedicated lists and databases that are way, way better for that sort of data. I'm not going to say that it's a "bad" idea to include them here, but I think it should be a low priority. Certainly below things like writing articles for cartoon episodes and comic issues. Anyway, I do agree that if we include them at all they should be included in the "toys" section since many characters have more than one set of numbers depending on which toy you're looking at. Also, any template we make for them should have switches in it that can change FRP to FRB and also trade in the Mincromaster teamwork/coop stats. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Good thought, both on the location and the optionals. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Oh, I'm not about to go on some huge TS# update spree, don't get me wrong. There are certainly a load of things I think would take higher priority (like that whole more-colorful-header thing brought up a while back). But I'm just thinking it's a piece of info that can be somewhat unobtrusively added to a relevant section, might be worth looking into at some point. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::There are some UK exclusives with little to say abotu them BUT their tech-specs. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
::: Also, the LOCs. Having the numbers there would also help fill some of the vertical space to prevent messes like [[Jetfire#Classics|what we see with Jetfire's page]]. The "Attacktix" sub-section really needs to be "page-breaked", but doing so will levae a LOT of blank space. A TS number addition would solve that nicely. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

i was looking at wookipedia and saw on the search toolbar that they had a wookie on top of it. could we do something like that with bumblebee on it.also it would be cool to have a background for the site like mabey cybertron or a picture of an autobot decepticon gen 1 battle, or just a big autobot logo.

==A little more color?==
Just an idle thought. Is there a way to tweak the colors of the picture thumbnail borders? Like, say, for a Decepticon character page, their pictures would be bordered with a pale purple, while the Autobots would have light red... and uh... blue for humans? Green for Quints and miscellaneous aliens? Black with white text for Unicron?<br>
Yeah, it's functionally pointless and a lot of "going over old pages" work, but the graphic design part of me is screaming for a little more visual "oomph", and since TFs don't lend themselves well to the kind of "core data table" whatchamadoozie you find on most other character-centric wikis... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 10:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We've started to hash this out, and I've constructed a [[User:Suki Brits/Nightbeat|mock-up of the idea.]] Also see the talk page, for M Sipher's proposal on colours. If you have any thoughts, please post them, as this is obviously a MASSIVE sweeping change to what the wiki will look like. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 02:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
how do you do that?-grimlocker

==Sitename==
So, like, this is completely frivolous in the large scheme of things, but it's always sort of bothered me. I don't like the name of this wiki! I mean, even beyond us needing to get it spelled right when you type <nowiki>{{SITENAME}}</nowiki>, I just don't think it's a very apt one. Now, Teletraan I could answer just about anything on the cartoon, so long as it was pertinent to the plot, but it never struck me as a Repository of All Transformers Knowledge. There are at least two much better options.

#[[Vector Sigma]] -- It apparently knows everything, in addition to all manner of other qualities
#[[Underbase]] -- A dedicated Transformers knowledge database.

Now, of the two, I vastly prefer Underbase, firstly because scores of fan sites already use "Vector Sigma." (The same problem is present with "Teletraan I.") And secondly, it sets up all sorts of jokes about how too much knowledge about Transformers leads to madness or death. Ha ha ha.

Anyway, I mostly wanted to get that off my chest. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, but. At this point, the Teletraaanagh-eleven name is pretty much associated with the wiki. Rebranding your product right after it's finally starting to get name recognition in the fandom seems like kind of a dumb idea.[[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:I agree that Teletraan I is not the coolest possible name for this wiki, but I think Hooper_X is right that it's too late to change it. It's certainly an adequate name, and honestly it has much broader recognition than your other suggestions, which is probably a good thing. Pretty much anybody that knows anything about Transformers will recognize the name Teletraan I. Most of those same people will have never read or heard of the Underbase story and probably won't remember the name Vector Sigma either. The name we have is good enough. Also, I imagine getting the SITENAME variable changed is as simple a matter as leaving a note on [[Wikia:User:Angela]]'s talk page. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

yah i dont like the site name either.we could call it "autobots roll out!" the transformers wiki.

== "Sunbow universe" ==

I've noticed a number of pages that mention the "Sunbow universe" of the "Sunbow portion of the G1 continuity family" or pictures that state the source as anepisode of the "Sunbow cartoon". I remember a discussion about this awhile back, and I seem to remember that we decided against calling the the G1 cartoon the "sunbow" anything, as there was only one G1 cartoon that didn't already have another title, and there's about as much stuff in there that wasn't done by Sunbow anyway (most of it it Japanese fiction, but still...) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
:Oh yeah, that's usually me (since I prefer the exact terminology.) I haven't been doing it since we had that discussion I think, just had a brain-fart today. So, uh, yeah, you're right, we did decide that. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

== Botcon 2007 Battle of the Boards ==

From Brian:
"Faction Feud â€“ The Battle of the Boards

This Transformer trivia game show pits different Transformers web sites
against each other in the battle for all Transformers knowledge.
Faction Feud was a huge hit at BotCon 2006, so donâ€™t miss out on the
chance to compete this year! There are eight slots available for this
tournament so sing up ASAP! It will truly be a battle of wits!
How to enter: email Christie@mastercollector.com with your web
siteâ€™s URL and the 5 names and screen names of your 5-member team. Deadline
to enter: June 1, 2007."

We need to do this. I'd like to volunteer, but I realize I haven't been the most active contributor to the wiki. I'll step aside if need be. I just want to see Team TFWiki happen.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:Can we argue collaboratively about the answers before arriving at a consensus? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:26, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
::Doubtful. But maybe we can find a way to work awful jokes into our answers. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I wish to hell I could get in on this one. Oh well. Maybe next year. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

We need to go ahead and submit our entry. I volunteer, and I need 4 more players. Who's with me? Who will give up the power to transform to... wait, no. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 01:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You can count on me / Though I know not UT. --[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:You absolutely do NOT want me on your team, since I don't know crap, but if it's down to four people and nobody else will step up, I'll totally do it.
:At the very least, I will totally get some pom pons going. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 01:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:I am... willing. But there would be plenty of better choices than me. I guess the contest seemed pretty easy last year, so I could probably perform well, but Walky, Sipher, and LV would all be way better than I. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Graham, Sipher, and I would also be way better than you if they use the same questions as last year. 'Cuz, y'know, we wrote them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::That's probably reason enough for you three to bow out, I guess. We'll get by.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:Ah... sure, why not. I'll sign up. Someone will need to keep an eye on me near gametime so that I don't forget to show up, though. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
::Sweet. That makes 5, but I'll give it another day. If anyone else wants in, or someone on the team changes their mind, let us know.[[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Ah hell, I'll toss my hat in too. If necessary, I'm totally happy being a B-list sub in case someone who already volunteered or is just plain more knowledgeable than me bows out. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I've sent the e-mail! After a little bit of discussion, we ended up with me, Rotty, Steve-O, Monzo, Jackpot, and Blitz as our alternate. This is gonna be great. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
: The deadline has come and gone. Other sites have received their confirmations; we have not. So... apparently we're not in? A polite "piss off" e-mail would have been preferable to just not hearing ANYTHING... [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, good job, everybody who actually ended up on the team when they let us in at the last minute. (Who was in the lineup, again?) It would've been damned embarrassing if the Wiki had been out-trivia-ed, so thanks for doing us proud. I think we need that photo of Monz with all the medals on the BC07 page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Titles for characters with multiple names==

I want to predicate this by admitting that at some level it doesn't matter at all because of the existence of article redirects.

In looking over the recent changes, I noticed the [[Wing Dagger]] article, and wondered why, if our rule for characters who got new bodies with new names is that we list them under the name they first appeared in-fiction with (such as [[Hot Rod]] and [[Overhaul (Cybertron)]], the Wing Dagger article is a redirect. Walky said it had been discussed at some point and decided to do "name of the first TOY". I found mention of this on [[Talk:Overhaul (Cybertron)]] where LV seems to basically settle on that after realizing that all the more sensible options lead to conclusions we seemed to have already violated.

Currently, [[Help:Article types and titles]] says, "Characters with multiple names (as in the case of alter-egos) should have their article listed under their most prominent name..." Leaving aside the issue that prominence is ambiguous for a few characters, this seems, to me, to be by far the best option. Our wiki has developed into something ''HIGHLY'' fiction/character centered. The toys are almost an afterthought. Basing something as seemingly fundamental as what to name a character's article on what name happened to be applied to their first toy is totally out of left field.

I admit that the first-toy rule would be unambiguous and solve nearly all the tricky cases (I sort of have a problem with Overhaul/Leobreaker, but not a huge problem). However, it still feels ''wrong'' to me. In principle, some canon source could state that a character who is extremely visible in some franchise was a new body for some random no-fiction toy character from the previous franchise, and we would end up listing them under their old and irrelevant name for perpetuity. It pains me to replace the phrase "most prominent name" with "name applied to their first toy". It's not a rule that has any logic or sense behind it. It's a kludge that happens to solve most of the practical problems but doesn't fit my idea of the "spirit" of the wiki.

I would appreciate hearing suggestions/comments from other editors.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

:I agree completely. The fact of the matter is that TF fiction is a patchwork of ambiguities, contradictions, dangling threads, and irregularities. Oftentimes there just CAN'T be hard-and-fast rules; we have to bite the bullet and accept that the only logical option is to allow for subjectivity. In this specific case, the standard has to be "prominence." Sure, such a thing might lead to arguments and fights and what-have-you with no clear Law to arbitrate, but that's what we get for putting together a wiki on Transformers of all things. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

==Template for continuity organization?==
Is there a page somewhere that lays out a standard for how the continuities are grouped? Like, one massive article filled with headers and subheads for every possible universe, which families they're under, and what order they should go in? Because I'm a little confused as to the specifics sometimes, such as in [[Talk:Megatron_%28BW%29#Continuity|this discussion]], but that died with no resolution. It seems like a good idea to have a template-page where we can hash out the details. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

==Toy-photo policy?==
What's our policy on toy photos, officialness- and copyright-wise? I imagine pics from Hasbro's site and publications are preferable, like how we only use Hasbro-approved art and never fanart. But what about shots from places like [http://www.toybin.org/list.php Toybin] and [http://www.tfu.info/ TFU.info] and Remy's photos and all the galleries of the various TF-news sites and so on? I've certainly seen such photos in articles, but I've also seen people discourage the use of specific sites' images (like TFU.info). What's the principle at work here? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, my principle is "TFU.info's images look horrible and have depict toys which are sometimes fan-painted and have stickers all over the wrong places sideways." Also, I think as a general rule of thumb for the wiki, the background of a toy photo should be white. Not "you can see the unwhitebalanced panels of cascaded posterboard in the background," but actual white. But these are just my thoughts! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::It seems like our policy is 'official is always good, if Hasbro's stock photos aren't too off, but if you're usign another source, they'd better look '''good''', and make sure you give them full credit with a link.' (Or at least that seems to be how we've handled it thus far...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I can agree to that. "Official toy photos are best, if they're the non-photoshop-retouched kind and the toy is transformed correctly and the paint apps are the same in the production version." If you can't get that, take your own. If you can't get that, steal! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::Do we have a 'how to construct an Article' page? Not just format- but 'places you should really look for information, link to, etc'?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

::::Cool, thanks for the input. The one other time I've seen discussion on the matter (I don't recall which article it was in), someone was discouraging use of TFU.info pics because that site exists almost entirely to show photos. So swiping photos from there seems more like intellectual-property "damage" than if you take from, say, the more diversified [http://www.seibertron.com/toys/index.php Seibertron.com]. Thoughts on that? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
::::: I'm pretty sure I was part of that convo. And yes, Seibertron is my theftable-of-choice even though their pictures tend to have blacks a bit too sweet (Remy is second,) in that case IIRC I swiped from TFU because they had ''just'' the right angle I needed to highlight something. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

==Archival time==
I'm moving everything that hasn't seen a reply in two months into the archive. If you still want a topic raised on this page, don't hesitate to either start it again, or copy it back here. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 20:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template==
[[User:FFN|FFN]] fixed a glitch the other day with [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy's]] spoiler template overlapping his picture quote. I just found [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee's]] the same way. [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade's]] page has an odd manifestation where the template doesn't overlap anything important, but it does cover the top edge of his picture. It then, presumably because of the picture, line-breaks inside the template, causing the Jazz image to cover the words of the template.

I brought this up in the channel, and Walky said it looked fine on his screen. So I checked it in IE (I normally use Firefox), and it looked fine there, too...

So I'm not going to go altering a bunch of pages just because of something on my screen, but I want to put this out there to see if anyone else has the problem. Apparantly FFN did at least once. It appears to be browser-related, and I'm not sure what the precedent is on that situation. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 17:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:I've got that same exact problem with the Barricade page, using Firefox. Looking at it with IE, the spoiler template doesn't overlap the picture of Barricade there, but the beginning of "follow" in its text is still covered over by Jazz. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::It's a result of the spoiler template being after the picture- and the main bod doesn't get shoved left properly. I feel liek there should be a solution to that... I'll look at it, but for the mo ment, if you just move the spoiler template ABOVE the picture, the problem disappears. (This may actually be a problem with Firefox's float implementation, neither browser does layout 100% spot-on perfect.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

:It [http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/misc/spoiler-template.png looks awful] in Opera, too. In both Opera and Firefox, I'm not seeing any words covered up. It's just that crazy wrapping thing happening. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

::That's exactly how it looks in Firefox on my computer. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 22:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Hrm, done with pure styles, the messagebox stays behind, but somethign with the wikipmedia's messagebox styles (which were intended to be banners across the tops of articles) doen't play nice with floats.
:::Since Spoiler and some other templates are frequently used mid-stream, it looks like we (I) need a separate approach for these mid-stream templates. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
::::[[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout's]] is REALLY bad... but only in Firefox, again. It has some glitches in IE, but they aren't as obstructing to the article itself.

::::The problem boils down to placement on the page. We could easily get around this by deciding on a set placement for the spoiler template. That would let us work around, but not actually solve the base issue.

::::It appears that the writing in the spoiler tag accounts for the image and line-breaks appropriately, but when it does so it no longer accounts for its own template image. This happens in IE as well as Firefox.

::::Additionally, in Firefox, when the wording line-breaks, the border box fails to shorten itself so that it matches the end of the writing, and instead extends across the screen presumably to the end. This only happens in Firefox and, at least once, Opera. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 13:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

== Categories in redirects ==

Is there a reason that we have categories on redirect pages? I can sort of understand the reason behing it, as G1 Prime isn't an e-hobby exclusive but Orion Pax is. Yes, the article is (indrectly) on the category page, but the actual article is not in the category. This means that you can get to say, Spiderman from the "Journalists" category, you can't go the other way because Spidy isn't the journalist; Peter Parker is. You wouldn't even know the category existed from looking at the Spidy page.

I propose a fix for this. All categories from character redirect pages get moved to the character's article. Others, like where a [[Kolkular|city]] redirects to the [[Kaon|city-state]] it's part of, the city get it's own article. If [[Telemark VI]], which got nothing more than a passing mention, is important enough to get its own article, so is Kolkular. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::Anyone? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I see no problem with having [[Rodimus (G1)]], [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Hot Rod]], and [[Rodimus Major]] all being in the Autobots category. I don't care if they're not all individual articles. If someone wants to look for one of those, they shouldn't have to already know to only look for [[Hot Rod]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: This is more about when a redirect is in a category and the actual article isn't. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't have a problem with that either! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Movie/nonmovie parsing==
On a few different topics, the problem has come up that the movie -- which is arguably the central, primary feature of the franchise -- spells or parses words one way, but ''all other aspects'' of the franchise spell/parse the word another way. The examples I'm thinking of are AllSpark/All Spark, Brawl/Devastator, and NBE with "entity" versus "extraterrestrial". And I think there are one or two more. I feel like whatever solution we pick, we should stick with the ''same'' solution for all words where this has come up. My personal inclination is to use the dominant words even if that is not what the movie itself goes with. I see the movie's different usage as an inconsistency or aberration, even though all the other fiction is descended from it. However, I don't feel all that strongly about it. I mostly just feel that we need to apply the same logic to each case, whatever that logic ends up being. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well, of course the movie nomenclature is wrong. It's not real. The ARG says so. :)
:Seriously, though, I do agree, and I think Brawl/Devastator is the archetypal example. Every single damn thing - from toys to games to comics - calls him "Brawl" except the ONE time he's named in the movie, and even Hasbro calls that instance a "continuity glitch." And since he's such a hi-then-die, there's very little chance of his "Devastator" legacy perpetuating into the sequels. So the current situation - where we mention "Devastator" as a side-note and then move right along - is ideal and should be the model for all such nomenclature issues.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::If I recall, one of the upcoming issues of the UK movie comic, probably #2, is all about Devastator. And they called him Devastator in the solicits. Before the movie came out, we were all STUPID FURMAN THAT IS BRAWL NOT DEVASTATOR YOU FOOL, but oh how wrong we were. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::It was we who were the poor fools. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Their entire kingdom, united or otherwise, is dead to me. You hear me? DEAD. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::But then who would write every single Transformers story ever? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

==Timelines==
I want to create a category for the various timelines we've got here, but I'm not sure what to call it or where to put it. [[:Category:Timelines]] is already taken since we have a franchise by that name. Additionally, one of the timelines we have is a real-world timeline of the TF brand, rather than a timeline for a fictional universe. That means the timeline category should not be a subcategory under some fiction-releated category. (I was initially going to put it right under [[:Category:Stories]] (which by the way still needs a real name)). Any thoughts on these issues? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well I'd suggest maybe [[:Category: Chronology]] since Timelines is taken. Put that as a sub-category of Transformers in general if it must be under something else, and then put the individual timelines also under the category of their own franchieses (of course) and the real world one under just Transformers or create a Real World category for it and pages like it.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 19:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

==Oh the Humanity==
Would it be possible to use less anthropocentric metaphor and phraseology when speaking/writing/describing the mechanoid denizen of a planet/empire not based on or around the carbon atom,and by extension human or fleshling life? [[User:ChoHIlqoq|ChoHIlqoq]] 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
* I.E. "cut his teeth" "bloodthirsty" and other such terminology,fine if you're depicting Maximals or Predacons,but the Old Cybertronians it's not especially fitting or accurate.
: But Transformers do have teeth, which is supported by countless, well, pictures of Transformers with teeth. From Optimus Prime to Longtooth, these robots gots teeth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see any problem with it... If you prefer to use more colorful robot-ish figures of speech, feel free to do so, as long as you don't make up any non-canonical robot anatomy. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 13:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

:The Wiki is written <i>for humans.</i> Trying to eliminate human-anatomy-based phrasing is senseless. If a word like "bloodthirsty" is wrong because robots don't have blood, well, it's wrong for humans too because most "bloodthirsty" people aren't actually thirsty for the taste of blood. But when you're communicating to a specific audience, it's okay and even preferable to use the idioms <i>of that audience,</i> no matter their literal accuracy. They're idioms, so they probably aren't literally accurate in <i>any</i> circumstance.
:And personally, I find "robotic" reworkings of English phrases to be kind of annoying. What the hell does "oilthirsty" mean? I don't begrudge people for doing that (it certainly has quite a history in TF fiction), but it's always read more awkwardly to me than leaving metaphors as-is.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

== No love for Oceania? ==

Something I've noticed in the G1 Toylists is a) there's only lists of releases in the US and Europe and b) many figures are incorrectly being referred to as "European exclusives" - Australia got /everything/ Europe did - Classics, Overlord, Motorvators, AM Elites, Turbomasters, Predators, Pyro/Clench and their crews etc. - in the same years as Europe. So is it planned to create a list for Australian releases, and can we correct this whole "European exclusive" nonsense that's been going on for so long?

(I know no one really cares about Australia, but still..)
--[[User:Specimen-17|Specimen-17]]
:From the "Europe-only characters" category page...<br>
:''"Europe-only" is a bit of a misnomer, as many of the characters' toys listed here have also seen release in Canada, Australia, and parts of Asia. However, as the primary market for these items is the European market, it is used as a general umbrella-term. (Obviously, this caveat doesn't apply to the comic characters)''
: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

==Character page quotes==
Some people are clearly fond of the new "putting a representative quote at the top of character pages" thing, but I am against it. A recent rash of additional quotes only makes me feel this more strongly. My objection is that the quotes are highly visible/prominent on the page, as if they are supposed to embody the character in one sentence, and yet the choice of what quote accomplishes this task is ''highly'' subjective. Some of them I think are appropriate (although even the good ones add very little to the article that the capsule didn't already cover), and [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Rhinox_%28BW%29&diff=93878&oldid=89901 others I think are abysmal]. I don't think that policing them and getting rid of the bad ones is enough. I think they all need to go. Otherwise the existence of ''some'' quotes will only lead to quote-bastarding and disagreements. Anonymous editors will constantly be putting up their favorite stupid quote, uncited and with mangled grammar. People will change existing fine quotes into no-more-fine quotes that they personally like better. It's not worth the trouble. Am I the only one thinking this? If so, I will just keep my mouth shut and let the rest of you deal with it, but on the off chance that people agree with me I wanted to raise the issue. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
:Uh... isn't that also a problem with EVERYTHING ELSE on the wiki, due to the very nature of wikis? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::I'm an admin over at Wookieepedia, where we're very liberal with quotes, so I haven't got a problem it. Granted, I'm used to seeing them at the top of the page, but that's not a big thing. Also, I've added a few quotes from time to time, so my neutrality on it might be debated. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::Well... no, it's ''not'' a problem with everything else. Not in practice, at least. We know from experience that image captions are more prone to annoying edits than other parts of the wiki, for example. They seem to make tempting targets. And the majority of the content here is ''not'' subjective, or at least nowhere near as subjective as "this quote is the quintessential essence of this character", and therefore much less of a (potential) hassle. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:I admit, I've started a few articles with quotes- but not character pages I think. It's just so ''rare'' that you have a quote that serves as the perfect intro point for an article.
:Would a MoS for <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> saying ti shouldn't be used to lead-off na article unless it's actually a good jump-off point solve the problem? (It would give a firm justification to delete sucky ones, or ones where the quote isn't inteegrated intot eh flow of the write-up.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe it's just that I grew up on G1 [[tech spec]] cards, but I ''like'' character quotes as part of a character profile. I'd personally stick to ones that had them on their bio cards, but given that we ''are'' a '''Transformers''' wiki above all else, stylistically it seems to fit.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:The problem there is that the quotes went away for a long time. Also, for characters with multiple toys... which quote? You'd end up with major characters pretty quoteless. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

As the guy who put "These fools worship Transformers!" on the [[Fandom]] page, I think there are some quotes that in context are frankly too good not to use. I strongly disagree with the idea that there must be a blanket policy forbidding all of them anywhere. I think the choices should be ad hoc, dependant on how well the quotes clearly personify the characters ("Make deals, not war," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings") or pithily speak to events or locations (as per the Wookiepedia example, "wretched hive of scum and villainy"). Snipping away inappropriate quotes should be no more or less significant than snipping away poor writing or unsupportable conclusions. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 02:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
: The last part is my basic point. It's not like we're actually creating MORE whatever to be policed. It's the same shit we go through every hour, only with a certain template involved. I like the quotes, as noted above it's a very TF-y thing to have, plus presents a little nugget of information in a new, eye-catching way. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::We demonstrably ''are'' "creating more". We are adding a new "piece" that will be appearing in a lot of articles. As to the appropriateness, I agree that it's a neat idea, but I still feel that in practice it is not shaping up. I just did a count of character articles using the quote template for top-of-the-article shoutouts, and well over half of those are, in my opinion, weak to poor choices, and I'm not simply counting ones that were put up by random IPs. I think the quote for [[Falcia]], for example, is marginal. Maybe I'm interpreting the "point" of the quotes differently than you guys, but, I thought the idea was to pick something especially evocative, but a lot of them right now are simply memorable or "cute" lines that say little or nothing about the character. (I think I only read Linkage once, but judging from Falcia's capsule bio, I would think a quote that shows her to be unambiguously difficult would be far more appropriate than one in which she is seemingly giving an attitude ''justifiably''.) My biggest fear, I suppose, is that people will get it into their heads that character articles "should" have a quote, because I really can not believe there is a decent sum-up quote for every, or even most characters unless we are just going to plaigerize their tech spec or MTMTE mottos. I would love to go on a deleting spree and zap over a dozen of them right now, but I know that some users -- most notably Sipher -- ''really'' like the quote idea. That's why I decided to speak up and whine rather than just doing it. I am hoping that I might get some sort of concession like, "sure, you can delete the ones that are bad or so-so". Then at least all we'd have left to discuss is why I think so many of them are bad or so-so and should be deleted. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, Rhinox's is clearly a piece of shit. I have no problem with discussing quote quality/appropriateness and deleting stuff that doesn't live up. Just because I like having quotes, doesn't mean I'm gonna like every quote someone barfs up. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::::If there are enough people who don't mind - or do enjoy - keeping an eye on quotes and policing them for taste, then I don't see the problem. As with the captions, a community-wide sense of appropriateness will emerge. When done well, a quote can add a lot to an article, and like Siph, I think a baby-with-the-bathwater approach is too much. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spoiler template 'expiration' length==
Is there a length to how long a spoiler template stays up on a page? Til the end of the miniseries, til it comes out on DVD, [['Til all are one]]? Or is it situational? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
:Personally, I'd almost like the creation of a new category like [[:Category:Articles with spoilers]] to allow us to track which articles are using the template at a glance. It'd make removing the template once the spoilers become common knowledge much easier to police.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
::That could be easily and automatically done by altering the spoiler template to add the category. However, it's not really necessary, because you can also visit [[Template:Spoiler]] and use the "what links here" link in the toolbox on the left to get a list of every page which includes it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
:::I'd previously suggested an edit to the comingsoon template so that if you put it in as <tt><nowiki>{{comingsoon|~~~~~}}</nowiki></tt> (5 ~'s = a timestamp) it would say "This subject will be free for adding on..." (A date 30 days hence, or whatever we decide is a default spoiler time.) If you fail to supply a timestamp it'd just show the general 'don't put up yet' with no time mentioned.
:::We could do the same to the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> template that would (I think) cause it to vanish after that date had past.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Spotlight image==
Okay. So, check this out...<br>
[[Image:SpotlightScreenGrab.jpg]]<br>
I'm guessing what they do is grab the Main Page image and just use that... which means that if we want all three Optimusses in there... we need to change THAT image to be more of a square.<br>
[[Image:T1-ThreeOpsMain.jpg|200px]]
<br>
I'd done this to go up in the Spotlight at a smaller size, but it looks like they just kipe the main image. Thoughts on using this as the main image so Primal is still there, the "proper" name for the wiki is there, etc? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:That might be risky, depending on how they crop it. It's hard to tell where the top half of their letterboxing ends. If the new image is too tall, then the edges of the words will get chopped off. Might be worth asking the admins about - if they can give you the ratio they use, then we can do it safely. (I'm looking at the "Pushing Daisies Wiki" spotlight right now, and the non-letterboxed area is definitely wider than it is tall.)
:Also, we need to be sure that the new design will actually be readable and decent-looking when shrunk down that far. One thing to keep in mind is that if the caption already says "Transformers Wiki," then there's no need to repeat that in the image. If the pic just said "Teletraan I" and nothing more, then that'd help prevent the design from getting too crowded.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::I've already accounted for all of that. Not every Spotlight image has that hideous textbar on it; the "Symbolism Wiki", for example, is nothing BUT an image. They only apparently use textbars if "______ wiki" is not in the image itself, or hard to read, or not sufficiently square, or whatever. I noted the size of the box in pixels when making the image; the shrunk-down-to-actual-size version is already uploaded here;<br>
::[[Image:Tel1-SpotlightBox.jpg]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

:::Well then. Sounds good to me! - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
::::Of course, it could be just our luck and they'll take the lovingly-resized image and re-crop it and add redundant text...--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 21:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

==Messagebox placement==
Here is what [[Jetfire (Armada)|UT Jetfire's article]] now looks like in my browser:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb234/sstoneb/misc/boxes.png

I understand that people are more prone to notice and be guilted into fixing things if the messagebox notices are at the top, but I feel that the presentation of the articles shouldn't be made to suffer for it. I consider it unacceptable for two-thirds of the first screen to be taken up by boxes. There's going to be some variation depending on readers' screen resolutions and window sizes, but still, I can't be the only one who finds that excessive. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 06:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:I consider it motivation to fix the problem, myself. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 07:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, I run my monitor on a fairly high resolution so I forget it would be huge on lower resolutions. I'll move the stub back down, but the point still stands - having an annoying stub messagebox there compels one to finish off the damn article to get rid of it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to horizontally compress the stub/picsneeded messageboxes and make it so they will line up vertically? Taking up only one "line" and minimizing blank space? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
:Wikipedia seems to only use image messageboxes when it's a pressing or immediate need. Other messageboxes are all-text, short, and designed to take up as little space as possible. (They're also designed to stack neatly with no whitespace in-between.)
:Under such a modern- a template like Cleanup or Deletion might remain a pic box, bot other general-maintenance templates like 'pics needed' would become (ironically) pic-less. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== How will we cover VHS and DVD releases? ==

How are we going to cover the various VHS and DVD releases of the cartoons? Are we going to limit those to the pages of the companies who released them or have pages covering each series with dections for the release market?
We definently need something to list what is different on various releases, especially that the recent Madman release of G1 uses Mavrick's transfer for at least Season 1 (which in turn uses the original broadcast video with Rhino's 5.1 audio) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 19:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
:I'd say that [[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)]] is a decent example of a good way to do it, as is the [[Scramble City]] page. For the individual animated series, release details can be covered on their specific series page. So things like [[Armada (cartoon)]], [[Beast Wars (cartoon)]] etc. Seems to me to be the most logical place to look for that release information and any key differences in transfers/dubbing/wombat placement.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 19:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

== Animated Continuity Confusion ==

So, throughout this wiki we refer to the Sunbow cartoon as the "Animated continuity". Given that the upcoming cartoon is specifically titled "Transformers Animated", and that we're using "Animated" as the franchise marker for it, this has the potential for causing confusion. So, I'd like to recommend that we change all extant headers that read "Animated continuity" to "Sunbow cartoon continuity" or similar. Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 15:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:Um, IIRC, the term "Animated continuity" which is now in use by this Wiki refers to "G1 animated continuities", including "Sunbow cartoon continuity" and "Toei animation continuity (Japanese animation continuity)". [[User:TX55|TX55]] 15:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Since [[Sunbow]] doesn't have a page, I'm personally a little unclear on what their role in the creation of the G1 cartoon was. However, regardless of what we call it, I still think we need a change from "Animated continuity" to another term. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::How 'bout "G1 cartoon(<small>or ''animation''</small>) continuity"? And it should be clearly defined. But if the original term "Animated continuity" really changed into a new term, wow, I would be a big reconstruction, though. --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, we'd have a bot do it, I assume. Turning every occurence of "<nowiki>===Animated continuity===</nowiki>" into something else would be trivial for a bot, and 99% accurate. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::It strikes me as needless, as characters with fiction in the Sunbow cartoon are unlikely to also have continuity in the new cartoon. We are for these purposes treating the new cartoon's characters as new characters in their own right, just as Optimus Prime is a different character in the RiD and UT settings.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Oops, I can't believe I forgot. (my God...). --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::''It strikes me as needless'' While in any page that is clearly within a given continuity, there will only be a minor chance for confusion, there will be much greater change of confusion on the many pages that cover cross-continuity topics. (Or, for example, if someone on a G1 page wants to refer to ''Transfomrers Animated'' for whatever reason.) Simply put: Since we've chosen "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', this means that the term "Animated continuity" should probably only be used refer to the ''Transformers Animated'' continuity. (Or, maybe we shouldn't use "Animated" as the marker for ''Transformers Animated'', but it might be too late for that.) [[User:JW|JW]] 16:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Similar discussion on this issue has been had before on this Wiki, though I can't seem to find where. Just to point it out, we don't use "animated continuity" ''just'' to refer to the G1 cartoon. It's used on UT character pages as well. I am thinking it may be wise to go ahead and just have that phrase replaced with "cartoon continuity." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
: Excellent point. Yah, "Cartoon continuity" would do the trick. (Until the day there's a TV series called ''Transformers: The Cartoon,'' at least.) [[User:JW|JW]] 20:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:: 'Cartoon' was also the conclusion we reached last round of this discussion.
:: So do we want to make it aa formal request for the 'bot to change all instances of '==Animated continuity==' to 'Cartoon continuity'? (Except probably with regular expressions.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Let's give this thread a chance to attract more comments (say, until tomorrow afternoon), and then request it. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I'm in favor of "Cartoon continuity." The only objection I recall seeing was Walky pointing out that "cartoon" has multiple meanings besides animation. But I think the common usage in TFdom is strong enough that it'll do fine. The only alternative I can think of is something like "Televised continuity," but that's an unnatural term. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Issues Naming Convention ==

Okay, so [[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] and I have gone back and forth on this, so I'm putting it out in the open. He's lobbying for the format to be "Comic Name (issue number)" with the issue number only being there if it's a multi-part story. Personally, I don't care what the spotted heck we use as long as we use the same format for all the comic issues. Thus to get this noticed and foster discussion, here it is. Ideally once we decide something, it'd be great if we could get Walky or Suki to bot-edit everything so we're over and done with that.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 00:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:My reasoning is this: The title of the issue is not "Escalation, part 1", it's merely the first part of the title "Escalation". Also I don't care is we use "Escalation (part 1)", "Escalation (issue 1)" or "Escalation (#1)" as long as we're consistent. Please see my talk page for the conversation with Rosicrucian. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 00:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I'm a little reluctant to make a universal rule on this sort of thing. Contrary to MistaTee's statement, sometimes the title of a story really ''is'' "Blah blah, Part 1". However, in cases where there is no known title (like most of the IDW issues), I think "Series Name issue #" would be best, much like what we already have for the [[:Category:Dreamwave Armada issues|Dreamwave Armada]] series (except that, of course, normally the publisher's name wouldn't be in the title, it's only there for Armada to differentiate from the Panini series). It doesn't feel right to me to have a comma or a set of parentheses. That's the model I would prefer for the IDW minis. In cases of a multi-part story which has a known title and takes place in a series of a different title, but the individual parts do not have titles, we can't use the word "issue". So... then I guess either "Story Name, part #" or "Story Name (part #)" is cool with me. I guess I have a slight preference for the comma approach, since it mirrors the way multi-part stories are titled when they are actually given titles. I agree with MistaTee that decapitalizing "part" in those cases is more correct, although it's not an issue that engenders any passion within me. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::That actually makes a fair amount of sense to me. If we consider that we're treating these as multi-part stories similar to the way they are in the animated series episode summaries, it does follow that it would be "Infiltration, part 1" and so forth in absence of specific issue titles. It works for the miniseries issues, at the least.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 15:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I've sorta grown a fondness toward "issue", since each individual comic IS an issue of a larger title or miniseries. I also favor the parentheses since the word "issue" is not part of the title. When the TPB is released for Escalation, for example, it is not separated by "issue" or "part", etc, it's a free flowing story. Therefore it's simply "''Escalation'' (issue 1)". Now if the issue itself actually uses the word "part" or whatever (as in the UK strips for example) then I have no problem using it. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 16:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't think a an article title like "Escalation issue 3" causes any confusion -- the word issue and numeral 3 are clearly not part of the comic's title. It's just saying that the article is about the third issue of Escalation: "{Name of a comic series} issue {issue number}". Parentheticals in article titles, to me, are meant to differentiate between multiple entities that have the same name. The various issues of Escaltion do not have the same name -- they have no names at all. "Escalation issue 3" then is a purely descriptive article title which doesn't imply anything about the title of that issue. "Escalation, part 3" avoids my parantheses concern and would be acceptable to me (it is of the form "{Name of a multipart story}, part {part number}"), but I'd rather we explicitly refer to issues as issues when possible. In self-analysis I can't think of a reason for that preference, so it may be arbitrary. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Comic Art from unknown issues ==
Just wondering if we need a new template/category like "''issues?''" and "Category:Images from unknown issue" to present [[:Image:Sunstreaker avatar.PNG|some]] [[:Image:Landmine funny face.jpg|comic arts]] from unknown issues, like the way we use "''artist?''" --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 03:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree. I'd suggest also making a discussion page on the images in question so we can ask... but questions here tend to go unanswered in my experience. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:I've created [[Template:Unknown source]] to satisfy this request. I made it applicable to all images, not just comic scans. Please feel free to make use of it. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 18:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
::Wow! Thanks a lot, appreciate that. :D --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 02:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

==Accessory listing?==
[[Nautilator_%28G1%29#Generation_1|Nautilator's toy-entry...]]<br>
Just an idle thought I had. Bullet-pointing the ID numbers seems like a good idea, and I've been thinking it can't hurt to have a simple rundown of the stuff the toy came with, using the "proper" names for the weapons whenever available, with links when necessary, like for special weapons of which there are more than one (Blaster's not the only one packing an electro-scrambler, right?). Most of the G1 instructions for that kind of this can be found on Botch's site... thoughts? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:Looks good to me. BTW, what are your thoughts on the comic book naming convention (2 comments up). --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 10:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::I don't have one, not really my field. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::Accessory listings would be a good thing to have. TFU.info and Cobra Island Toys are about the only places that have the weapon names in text. We should probably include the entire list as according to the instructions, including the robot. The only snags I can think of is when different markets had different accessories (Headstrong and Tantrum had only one gun in Japan), when there is no mention of an accessory in any of the printed material (Megatron's chrome gun), or when reissues came with additional parts (Ricochet, TFC Megatron and Prime). --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, unnamed accessories can be unquoted, decapitalized short descriptors (chromed handgun, for example). International accessory variants can simply be another bullet point (''Accessories (US)'' vs ''Accessories (Japan)''). As for reissues... shouldn't those be listed separately from the originals ANYWAY? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, I'm not going to split the entry for Prime's first toy into the umpteen reissues it's had. Why must Takara insist on another reissue every few years? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== Lead/Led ==

There are two different words pronounced "lehd":
* "led", the past tense of "to lead", as in , "Yesterday, Optimus ''led'' his troops to victory."
* "lead", a heavy gray metal. (Well, it's blue-white when not exposed to oxygen, but that's neither here nor there.)
All over this wiki, editors are using "lead" where they mean "led". Please keep an eye open for this mistake. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

:Another common mistake I see a lot is capitalizing "The" when talking about the ''Ark'', the Matrix, etc. <br>And speaking of the ''Ark'', spaceships, like seagoing ships, should be italicized, unless of course it is a living Transformer like Astrotrain or Seaspray. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 14:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

::What about ''[[Astrotrain (G1)#IDW_Hearts_of_Steel_continuity|the Astrotrain]]''? :P -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:::One of the great mysteries of HoS is whether Astrotrain is a Transformer or just a high-tech train. I decided to assume he's a Transformer (i.e., a person), and omitted the "the" wherever possible. If we go with that assumption, no italics for him. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Unrelated, but it reminds me of how I keep trying to decide if the TFs in Hearts of Steel are actually adopting some of the technology level of the world they find themselves in. You got Scourge with a gasbag, Bumblebee being fired by coal, Ravage taken out by an exploding gas stove... it seems similar to the TF/Joe book where WWII robots have all these random loose wires dangling around and Rumble can be taken out with a grenade. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

== Mini-Series main page format ==
Okay, so I've been poking around, looking at the main page for [[Stormbringer]], [[Infiltration]], [[Escalation]], [[Hearts of Steel]], and many others. Every single one has a different format. I mean it -- like, no two are alike! These things need a common format and a general clean-up campaign.
Stormbringer's probably closest to what the format "should" be, though the summary breaks the 4th wall and having two bolded lines in succession looks kinda funny to me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:Agreed, these do need a common format and cleanup. Let's get one right and work from there. Since Stormbringer seems to be the closest, let's work with that one. I removed the one-liner, as it didn't really seem necessary, and added some headers to separate things out. Also added the picsneeded template, as we definitely need need the TPB cover. Perhaps the manga cover can be added in the collections section and maybe a pic from the bonus art can be added somewhere. An "Items of note" section would be helpful as well.
:--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 19:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. The Creative Team section should be kept really small, just writer and pencils I think, if even that, since each individual issue's going to have full credits. And I suppose the Overview section is a good place for the sort of outside-looking-in perspective on the fiction, ie "Headmasters follows the adventures of a new group of Transformers on Cybertron, whose toys were being introduced to the market blah blah." -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==Question about mass-produced "fan" toys==
Hi there, transfolkerinos.

Just a little thing that I though might prove vaguely controversial, so I thought I'd raise it here before unilaterally adding it and getting into a tiresome edit war with anyone.

Topic is: mass-produced non-Hasbro/Takara "Fan" toys, ala Unicron.Com's Golden Disc sets, Vector Sigma key (and other ''Beast Machines'' accessories) and ImpossibleToys' products such as the Diaclone-scale Sparkplug & Spike, Energon Cubes and the marvellous "Quint-01" Quintesson Judge Figure.

What I want to know is if I can add info on these products on the relevant pages, or if that's gonna disrupt some rule over official-ness. Before anyone gets too excited, I'll just say right off the bat that I'm proposing in each case to CLEARLY denote that they are non-official products, and they probably should even be listed separately in the "Triva" sections of each relevant page, to further distance them from listings of official products (although, in most cases, there ''aren't'' official versions. Which is kinda the point...).

The only argument against listing them that I can imagine is simply that, obviously, they're not official HasTak products and therefore, in a wacky kind of sense, "not canon". However, my argument ''for'' including them is threefold:

1] Unlike kitbashing or other customs, these items are mass-produced with high quality control, akin to an official product. (Yes, I ''know'' that unlicensed repros/knock-offs are mass-produced too, but the distinction here is that items like the Quintesson are original creations/moulds rather than substitutes for a previously-released product).

2] These products are all designed to represent accessories or characters from the fictions that had (hitherto) never been given official representations, thus filling a gap.

3] Perhaps most importantly, this stuff has been sold openly at BotCon in recent years, so even though the Collector's Club isn't personally hawking it, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that Hasbro is aware of this product and tacitly permits its sale and manufacture, when it could just as easily sue their asses for copyright infringement if they wanted to. The fact that they ''haven't'' and have actually let these companies sell their stuff at their official Con seems to me to be the rather meaningful turning of a rather large, not-so-blind eye. It also would rather seem to indicate that they have no immediate plans of their own to make official versions of this stuff (apart from Vector Sigma, years after Unicron.com did it), and are happy to let these well-set up little companies do their thing and keep the fans happy.

Anywayz, I just thought I'd float this here before adding to any of the pages myself. Let me know what y'all think.

Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

: No. No, no, and no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:: Um, okaaay. Care to elaborate? I reiterate my suggestion that these items be '''clearly''' marked as non-official, and that the descriptions be placed only in '''Trivia''' sections. May I ask what's the harm? [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
::: Part of the problem with including unofficial "bootleg" toys is that it opens the door for, well, all bootlegs. And that'd just be ridiculous. Ever been to a Big Lots? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::::No, can't say I have. I take it that's some North American chain?
::::Anyway, I do take your point. It ''would'' be ridiculous to include bootleg toys, I agree. But the very fact that we already have an article on [[Knockoff]]s (not to mention all manner of "ridiculous" minutiae of fan-lifesyle. [[Seafood Louis]] anyone? [[Blastification]]? All very amusing, but hardly "official") suggests to me that we should be capable of ''some'' restrained mention of '''prominent''' fan-manufactured items.
::::And again, can't we draw some distinction between knock-offs of existing official products and completely original works based on major fiction-only characters & objects? I really don't see the harm in discreet mentions of clearly-acknowledged-as-unofficial products when they've been mass-marketed at Habsro's own offical Con. Surely you'd concede that there's a GULF of difference between that and this "Big Lots" place...?
::::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.
:::::Yes, but ''those'' articles are confined to their respective pages. You were proposing listing unofficial merchandise on the relevant pages. (Under the Quintesson page, etc.)
:::::We'd probably still resist adding an 'unofficial toys' page because it'd quickly degenerate into "what qualifies as...", but I bet you'd have more luck proposing ''that''.
:::::(We ''should'' have a page where we can stick the Action Master Breakdown, WST Dinobots and the Star Saber Minicon recolors... we've just kida avoided it because it seems like a collosal headache waiting to happen.) Reemember- if you start such a page pick a clear standard about what's mass-produced 'enough' to qualify. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's a compromise position I was going to fall back on, yes.

Would it really be such a crapfest, though? I dunno, maybe I'm a little more ignorant of this topic than I thought, but what sort of "ridiculous" stuff do you think people are going to want to include? In terms of mass-produced, wholly original fan-made products (as opposed to knockoffs of existing HasTak prods), is there ''really'' all that much out there other than Unicron.com, ImpossibleToys and JustIToys? For all I know, there is. Please, in all seriousness; fill me in.

I think if we could agree on an adequately-defined page name & definition, we should be okay. How about something like: "Fan-manufactured toys" with a '''clear''' intro stating something along the lines of:

"As distinct from [[Knockoff]]s of existing products or one-off/made-to-order [[kitbash]]es, Fan-manufactured toys are mass-produced, high quality toys which feature completely original tooling/sculpts, intended to fill gaps in the official Hasbro/Takara product line, such as major characters like [[Spike Witwicky]] and the [[Quintesson]]s, as well as significant accessores, such as [[The Key to Vector Sigma]], hitherto appearing only in fiction. Although explicitly unofficial and in some cases sold under copyright-skirting product names, these toys are carried by major online distributors of Transformers product like BigBadToystore.com and are prominently sold at [[BotCon]], Hasbro's official Transformers convention, seemingly indicating a degree of tacit approval."

I agree there would be bit of definitional wrangling over something like WST Dinobots... yeah. But, again, is there ''really'' all that much out there, and is there really that much of a grey area between blatant knockoffs and these lovingly-designed, original creations for the fan-market? Surely work of this nature deserves a place on a wiki that has so many articles about its own fandom...?

I'd be keen to hear a few more opinions. I don't want to sound snarky, but it seems that whenever I raise things around here I'm always talking to the same 4 or 5 chaps. Not that I wish to malign their opinions in any way, I'd just really appreciate hearing from the wider editorial community. Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.

:Sorry, I'm a pattern-finder so I tend to track policy issues and form interpretations of the principles, ideals, morals, conflicts and opinions that underly a wide variety unrelated decisions, and then freely project where new issues fall within that gestalt. (The head of the theology department was heartbroken I didn't want to make it my major.)
:I just don't think we have a lot of users interested/comfortable discussing abstract or hypothetical metapolicy. We tend to 'discover' our policies via precedent (people not liking something when it's done) not the Socratic method, which is wasteful-- but very American. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
::Fair enough! :-)
::What's ''your'' opinion of the proposed article title and definition/lead-off from my last post, though?
::[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]. 25th October 2007.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scorponok (BW)

2007-10-24T08:33:21Z

220.239.53.20: /* Beast Wars */

{{disambig3|Scorponok}}
:''Scorponok is a [[Predacon]] from the [[Beast Wars]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] continuity family.''

[[Image:Scorponokbwpostcard.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Transforms into a scorpion. Surprise?]]

'''Scorponok'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s personality seems to have two main features: he's dumb and he's loyal to [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (surprisingly so, considering Megatron's [[Terrorsaur (BW)|other]] [[Tarantulas|crew]] [[Blackarachnia|members]]), and among those two features only the loyalty seems to be consistent. He tries to serve Megatron to the best of his abilities, but when [[Waspinator]] is able to outwit you there's only so much you have to offer.

Scorponok was Megatron's [[Sub-Commander|second-in-command]] on the ''[[Darksyde]]'', though he is insecure about the title and constantly tries to assert himself among the other Predacons who, aware of his shortcomings, generally dismiss or ignore him.

Scorponok's only other real contribution to Megatron's cause is in developing cyber-viruses that he delivers with his cyberbee drone. (Impressive actually, given his otherwise limited mentality.) Generally these don't work out as he hoped however, and so they've done little to increase his standing in the eyes of the other Predacons.

:''Italian name'': '''Scorpionok'''<br>
:''Japanese name'': '''Scorpos'''

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
====''Timelines: Dawn of Future's Past''====
[[Image:Scorponokbwdawn.jpg|left|thumb|140px|Looking at him, he was probably called Scorponok before the Beast Wars, too.]]

The Predacon that would be called Scorponok, his commander [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], and his commander's [[Dinobot (BW)|lieutenant]] stole the sacred [[Maximal]] relic, the [[Golden Disk]]. After fighting their way through the relic's guards, the thieves were picked up by their other comrades in a stolen ship, newly-christened the ''[[Darksyde]]''.

Soon after leaving Cybertron, the ''Darksyde'' was in involved in a space battle with the Maximal science vessle; ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]'' and the ''[[Chromia 10]]'', and an unidentified Predacon ship. At its conclusion, only the ''Axalon'' and the ''Darksyde'' survived and both ships passed through a [[transwarp]] portal to an unknown destination. {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}}

(Note- Scorponok's pre-beast body seems to be a redeco of Energon Scorponok... how origonal)

{{-}}

====''Beast Wars''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Don Brown]] (US) [[Masashi Endō]] (Japan)

[[Image:BW_Scorponok_BW1.jpg|thumb|right|300px|I'm not dumb! I'll prove it by taking on [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] all by myself.]]

Crash-landing on an unknown planet, Scorponok and his peers were forced to take on organic beast modes to shield themselves from the planet's dangerous levels of raw [[energon]]. Scorponok now transformed into an organic scorpion. When Dinobot furiously berated Megatron for foolishingly marooning them on the wrong planet and attempted to attack his leader, Scorponok stood behind Megatron and waited for his cue to fire on Dinobot, sending the traitor far into the distance. Later, Scorponok participated in the first battle between the Maximal and Predacon faction, and managed to trap Cheetor's leg under a boulder. However, the Predacons soon succumbed to energon overload. {{Storylink|Beast Wars, Part 1}}

After recovering in beast mode, Scorponok and the lower-ranking Predacons were wagering who would win the battle between [[Optimus Primal]] and Dinobot until Megatron ordered them to fire on the unwitting combatants. After their shots failed to destroy the Maximals, but did reveal a massive energon cache buried inside a mountain, the Predacons moved out, followed by the Maximals where Scorponok fought Dinobot. {{Storylink|Beast Wars, Part 2}}

Later, Megatron tasked Scorponok with a mission to create a virus for his cyberbee that would turn Optimus Primal into a coward. Ambushing the Maximal leader and Dinobot as they were on a botanical study near a waterfall, Scorponok managed to have his cyberbee latch onto Optimus when he attempted to help the traitor. Unfortunately, Optimus Primal fired off a shot before going down, dislodging the log Scorponok was sitting upon and sending him over the edge of the waterfall. To greater misfortune, Scorponok had botched the virus, turning Optimus Primal not into a coward, but a fearless, ultra-aggressive beserker. Both Scorponok and Megatron were blown up with the Cyberbee when Primal rips it off and chucks it at Megatron's back. {{Storylink|Gorilla Warfare}}

[[Image:BW_Scorponok_Terrorsaur_deaths.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Oh, the... robotity?]]

Scorponok laughed along with his fellow Predacons, then congratulated Megatron after learning of Optimus Primal's destruction, but was pushed away by his leader. Scorponok died along with [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] when the two, affected by the transwarp wave that turned Megatron into [[Transmetal]] crashed their hover platforms into each other and tumbled into the lava beneath the Predacon base during the explosion of the [[Vok]]'s artificial moon. No one much noticed. {{Storylink|Aftermath}}

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Beast Wars===
* '''Scorponok''' (Mega, 1996)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-2'''

:Scorponok transforms into a fairly organic but highly inaccurate black scorpion. The right pincer contains a small spring-loaded bee drone type gimmick which could be launched, while his left pincer has a firing missile launcher. He also features exactly the same transformation as pretty much every Scorponok toy ever, transforming into a robot with his pincers serving as his arms and his tail hiding behind him. Owing to his high usage of ball joints, he has a high range of articulation

:The japanese release of Scorponok has a slightly more 'show-accurate' paint scheme. But not by much.

* '''Scorponok''' (Transmetal, Happy Meal, 1998)

:Since Scorponok got killed off in order to introduce new prod... er, CHARACTERS, he was granted a "Transmetal" toy as a Happy Meal premium. He transforms like every other Scorponok, except his shoulders could never go lower than a few degrees from pointing up, meaning all he could do is "raise the roof". It's cast mostly in gauche magenta and "metallic" gold.

==Trivia==
[[Image:BW-MegaPromo.jpg|left|thumb|125px|Collect all the nonexistent toys!]]
[[Image:ToyFair96ScorpGriz.jpg|right|thumb|The most effective stealth ever.]]

* Scorponok was first advertised on the back of the [[Optimus Primal]] versus [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] two-pack at the start of the Beast Wars line with a completely different color scheme. The toy itself was cast completely in transparent orange and blue plastic, which would have made it remarkably fragile at the joints. Another version cast in pink translucent plastic and having the final claw coloration surfaced in 2006, although this could likely be explained by the random plastics used in test shots.

{{-}}
==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Predacon/Scorponok/scorponok.htm Scorponok at TFU.info]

{{stub}}
[[Category: Beast Wars characters]]
[[Category: Fast food exclusives]]
[[Category: Predacons]]
[[Category: Timelines characters]]
[[Category: Transmetals]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Megatron (BW)

2007-10-24T08:29:26Z

220.239.53.20: /* Trivia */

{{Template:Disambig3|Megatron}}

:''Megatron is a [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]], a [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]], and a [[Decepticon]] in the [[Beast Era]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]]. He's a busy villain. Yessss.''

[[Image:Megatronbw.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Next person to make a Barney joke gets this tail/weapon shoved deep somewhere uncomfortable. Yessssss.]]

'''Megatron''' has one goal -- restoring glory and power to the Predacon race, with himself at the helm. What distinguishes Megatron from the countless others who share this goal is his chutzpah. He is willing to risk everything — time, space, himself — if need be. And there were times he might have made it happen were it not for [[Optimus Primal]]

Megatron is skillful at orchestrating vast schemes by manipulating others into doing them for him -- an idle suggestion here, a conspicuously-planted object of interest there. He knows his enemies inside and out and exactly how to provoke them. He has no friends, only pawns. Because of this attitude, this superiority complex, he despises working with the very troops he needs to carry out his plans. His hubris does not make him very popular, and so he must rely on power and fear to rule them.

Megatron is a gambler and can sometimes be a ham. (His manner of saying "Yesss..." is practically vaudevillian.) He has a twisted sense of humor and an over-developed sense of drama which rule everything he conceives, both long and short term. When he destroys you, he wants you to know that it was he who did this, and just how badly you were had. This is his greatest weakness. Like a Bond villain, he'll gladly boast to the hero at length about how smart and clever he was, giving his victim time to formulate a counterattack (he admits the Predacons sometimes gloat too much). He often sabotages himself by neglecting the quick and easy solutions for the bigger, meaner, and more complex.

Prior to the signing of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], Megatron was a field commander in the Predacon army, where he learned much about strategy and tactics. Upon ratification of peace with the [[Maximal Imperium]] most Predacons laid down their arms. Megatron refused and went rogue.

{{quote|This is my world now. ''You'' have no place in it!|Megatron|[[Other Victories]]}}
''Japanese name:'' '''Megalligator''' (alligator)<br>
''European-market name:'' '''Dragone''' (Transmetal 2), '''Metal T-Rex''' (Transmetal)

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
====Beast Wars II catalog====
[[Image:MegatronGalvatronBW1.jpg|left|150px|thumb|pwnd.]]

On planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Megatron once disagreed with [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] over opinions on galactic conquest, and engaged him in battle over it. At the time, Megatron momentarily let his guard down, and was defeated. Galvatron declared "Your era is over, Megatron!"

Later, Megatron noted that while Galvatron was ambitious, he cared for his underlings - and although he was loathe to admit it, he acknowledged that Galvatron probably had all the regal bearing of a new [[Emperor of Destruction]]. {{storylink|Beast Wars II catalog}}

====Dreamwave comics continuity====
After stealing the [[Golden Disk]] ''(wrongly drawn as the [[Alien Disk]])'', Megatron broke into [[Vector Sigma]] along with [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] and reviewed historical files on many of the Autobots and Decepticons from the [[Generation 1]] era. He told Dinobot to refer to him henceforth as Megatron. {{storylink|Transformers: More Than Meets the Eye #8}}

====''Timelines: Dawn of Futures Past''====
[[Image:Megatronbwsuit.jpg|thumb|150px|Megatron's technicolor dreamcoat.]]
On Cybertron, Megatron wore removable transformable armor, which transformed into a missile-launching armored platform, over his basic bodyframe (which transforms into a hovertank). This quickly-discarded outer shell was possibly used to comply with the ratification of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], which required Predacons to lay down their arms. A Predacon field commander before the peace, Megatron refused to comply with these new regulations and struck out on his own to destroy the [[Maximal Imperium]].

With some [[Cryotek|help]] from [[Divebomb (G1)|various sources]], he assembled a crew of ragtag criminals and miscreants for the purpose of stealing the Golden Disk and using it to find [[Earth]]. Succeeding in stealing the disk, he, [[Dinobot (BW)|his lieutenant]], and [[Scorponok (BW)|another accomplice]] fought their way out of the [[Archives]], eliminating [[Unit 1|one guard]] and dodging [[Tigatron|another]]. They were swiftly picked up by the ''[[Darksyde]]'', a ship stolen by the rest of their crew.

Megatron instructed [[Tarantulas]] to study the disk for the coordinates of Earth while the ''Darkside'' battled its several pursuers. Although they were followed by the Maximal ships [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] and the ''[[Chromia 10]]'', the ''Darksyde''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s mission was also aided by a third ship crewed by the Predacon agents [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] and [[Buzzsaw (G1)|Buzzsaw]]. Though the ''Chromia 10'' and the Predacon ship were destroyed, the ''Darksyde'' was still followed by the ''Axalon''. Megatron removed his transformable armor and patched a video feed through to the ''Axalon'''s captain, [[Optimus Primal]]. Declaring himself the leader of the Predacons, Megatron opened a [[transwarp]] portal through which both ships travelled. {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}}

====''Beast Wars''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[David Kaye]] (English), [[Shigeru Chiba]] (Japanese)

[[Image:Megatronbwspidersgame.jpg|left|thumb|200px|I thought I told you NO MORE BARNEY JOKES.]]
After stealing the Maximal relic, the [[Golden Disk]], and [[Darksyde|a ship]], he and his crew were followed through a [[transwarp]] portal by the [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']]. After crashing on a planet that was supposed to be [[Earth]], yet seemingly wasn't, both the [[Maximal]]s and the Predacons took organic beast forms to protect themselves against the massive amount of Energon radiation. Megatron now transformed into a purple ''Tyrannosaurus rex''.

Dinobot chastised Megatron, accusing him of leading the Predacons to the wrong planet and challenged Megatron for leadership of the Predacons. Megatron simply ignored the challenge and had Scorponok dispose of him. {{storylink|Beast Wars, Part 1}}

Despite the loss of a formidable crony, Megatron positioned himself on the new world and the "Beast Wars" began. Being on a world filled with Energon allowed [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] to find a superhorde, and power himself to great levels. With this power, Terrorsaur was able to demolish Megatron in battle and take over the Predacons. However, through the Maximals' actions, the superhorde was destroyed. Terrorsaur was eventually ridden of his newfound power and returned to an angered Megatron, who was rebuilt by [[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]]. {{storylink|Power Surge}}

[[Image:Megatronbwtrex.jpg|150px|thumb|Today is a beautiful day to be stomping on things!]]
Again, Terrorsaur tried to usurp Megatron, this time using an apparently-turned [[Rattrap]], who used a device to paralyze Megatron. The Predacons argued over who would be leader, but agreed to put Rattrap and Megatron away for the time being. Megatron was able to easily escape using his secret voice commands, leaving Rattrap to his fate. Revealing himself to have escaped, Megatron allowed Terrorsaur to lead the Predacons in battle with the Maximals. Terrorsaur failed miserably, showing his ineptitude to the Predacons, which was Megatron's plan all along. {{storylink|Double Jeopardy}}

Megatron later formulated a plan to get off Earth. First, he had the other Predacons act dissatisfied with his leadership, causing a battle that apparently destroyed the Predacons, using a Maximal spy camera that he was aware of to play out the trick. Then, the Maximals scavenged the ''Darksyde'' for parts to repair the ''Axalon''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s stardrive. Dinobot discovered the deception and rushed to warn the leaving Maximals. In the scuffle, Megatron snuck aboard. In the ''Axalon'', he managed to knock out every Maximal on the ship but Rattrap, who he started crushing to death. An angered [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] woke up and threw Megatron off the ''Axalon''. However, Megatron's tail weapon was stuck in the console, causing the ''Axalon'' to crash. Again. {{storylink|Victory (Beast Wars episode)|Victory}}

Later, Megatron caught wind of the return of the [[Vok]] and called a ceasefire between the two factions, realizing he had more important things to worry about. The Vok did indeed return, and planned to destroy the planet the Transformers were on with their massive [[Planet Buster]] (cleverly disguised as the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]). Optimus Primal managed to stop the planet buster after flying close to it within a modified stasis pod. Megatron added a little surprise for Primal within the pod, though; locking the door so that Primal could not escape and was destroyed when the planet buster exploded. {{storylink|Other Voices}}

The [[quantum surge]] from the exploding planet buster bathed Megatron in quantum energies, upgrading him into a [[transmetal]]. Megatron quickly rallied his forces and attempted an all-out attack on the leader-less Maximals. Megatron and the Predacons took the upperhand in battle until a transmetal Optimus Primal (brought back online by [[Rhinox]]) saved the day. {{storylink|Coming of the Fuzors, Part 1}}

With both factions now aware that the planet they were stranded on was really prehistoric [[Earth]], Megatron was free to put his full plan into motion. Locating the crashed [[Ark]], Megatron attempted to alter history by assassinating the unconscious [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. By doing so, he intended to ensure the defeat of the [[Autobot]]s and thus the victory of the [[Decepticon]]s and Predacons. (For unknown reasons, he showed no concern that such a drastic change to the timestream might erase his own existence.) {{storylink|The Agenda, Part 3}}

The Maximals managed to save Prime's life by having [[Teletraan-1]] repair his body while Optimus Primal kept his spark within his own structure, transforming his body into a more powerful form. The Maximals defeated Megatron and returned Prime's spark to its proper place. {{storylink|Optimal Situation}}

[[Image:Megatrontm2render.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Two Megatrons for the price of one.]]

Megatron was not to be outdone. He managed to sneak inside the Ark (which was now the new Maximal base) and take the spark of the original Megatron, seeking to replicate the effect Optimus Prime's spark had on Primal's body. He placed his namesake's spark within his body, transforming himself into a powerful dragon. With this newfound body, Megatron was able to give Optimus Primal a sound beating, until chased away by the entire Maximal group. {{Storylink|Master Blaster}}

Megatron's next evil scheme involved the legendary Decepticon battleship, the [[Nemesis (G1)|Nemesis]]. After finding the ship deep beneath the ocean, Megatron intended to pilot it back to the future and lay waste to the Maximals on Cybertron. {{storylink|Nemesis, Part 1}} First, however, he planned to annihilate the Ark on prehistoric Earth. Primal infiltrated the Nemesis and kept Megatron busy until Rhinox could fly a shuttlecraft through the bridge and take the Predacon out. The Nemesis crashed a second time and thus preserved history.

After returning the original Megatron's spark to its proper body, the Maximals headed back to Cybertron with the incarcerated Megatron shackled to the outside of their ship. {{Storylink|Nemesis, Part 2}}

{{-}}

====''Tales of the Beast Wars''====
[[Image:Antagony megatron.jpg|left|thumb|Kinky.]]
{{-}}

====''Robot Masters'' (Japan-only)====
Voice actor: [[Toshitsugu Takashina]] (Japan)

Taking advantage of the [[Blasty Zone]] as a means of time travel (and apparently size-enhancer), Megatron journeyed to a point in history where the original Megatron had gone missing, leaving the [[Decepticon]]s without a leader. "Beast Megatron" took command of the Decepticons, leading them on a quest to collect a powerful element, [[solitarium]], from within the Earth. Beast Megatron's plans were quickly thwarted by [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and a troop of time-displaced Autobots and Maximals, including [[Star Saber (G1)|Star Saber]], [[Victory Leo]], [[Lio Convoy]] and Beast Megatron's arch nemesis, [[Optimus Primal]].

Beast Megatron later discovered a large deposit of solitarium beneath [[New York City]], and along with [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], [[Smokesniper]], [[Gigant Bomb]] and [[Wingstun]], laid waste to the Big Apple. The Autobots, accompanied by [[Reverse Convoy]], arrived and dealt with Beast Megatron's forces quickly. However, Reverse Convoy revealed himself to be the original Megatron in disguise and betrayed them. Now going by the name [[Megatron (G1)#Robot Masters (Japan-only)|Rebirth Megatron]], he teamed up with Beast Megatron and the pair made trouble for the Autobot commanders. However, the Autobots were able to defeat the two Megatrons, sending the villains into retreat.

====''Beast Wars Metals'' manga====

''(Note: although it picks up after the events of the first season, the Beast Wars Metals manga is not in-continuity with the television series.)''

Megatron is a bumbling oaf constantly leading the [[Predacon|Predacons]] against the forces of the [[Maximal|Maximals]]. {{storylink| Beast Wars Metals (manga)|Beast Wars Metals}}

====IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics====
[[Image:IDW Megatron Magmatron.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Go back to anime, Magmatron!]]

After dispatching [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] to oversee the installation of [[Sentinel]] into the [[Darkside]], Megatron was attacked by [[Magmatron (BW)|Magmatron]], who had been assigned to arrest him by the [[Tripredacus Council]]. Although Megatron kicked Magmatron's ass, he was ambushed and paralyzed by [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]] and [[Drill Bit (BW)|Drill Bit]]. Magmatron intended to use a [[transwarp shunt]] to transport his prisoner back to [[Cybertron]]. {{storylink|The Gathering, Part 3}} Thanks to the intervention of [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Optimus Minor]], and [[Razorbeast]], Magmatron was sent home empty-handed. Razorbeast was tempted to dispatch the prone Megatron, but released him instead, due to his desire to avoid interfering with the timeline. {{storylink|The Gathering, Part 4}}

Ravage attempted to free Megatron after his capture, but didn't progress very far in his plans.{{storylink|The Ascending, Part 1}}

{{-}}

====''Beast Machines''====
Voice actor: [[David Kaye]] (US), [[Shigeru Chiba]] (Japan)

[[Image:Megatron for life.jpg|right|thumb|Whaddya mean, 'Triumph of the Will'?]]Breaking free from his constraints on the Autobot shuttle while it traveled through transwarp space, Megatron arrived back home on Cybertron well before the Maximals did. Using technology of his own devising, he took over the entire planet, and stored the [[spark]] of every last inhabitant under his citadel.

Additionally, Megatron seemed to have undergone a change. Gone was the ham who sought conquest for the sake of glory and power. He now spoke as if a god, almost reminiscent of his quotes from the Covenant of Primus. His actions were based not on the thirst for revenge on Maximals but in hopes of becoming a grand liberator for their kind. In addition, while as recently as the final battle of the Beast Wars, he would flatten a subordinate for even mentioning "the H word" ("honor"), he now would keep his word to his enemies, even at the risk of future losses. Further, at some point in this period, Megatron became convinced that beast modes and other vestiges of the organic were an abomination that should be scoured from Cybertron, leaving only technological purity (whereas before he had seemed perfectly pleased with his dinosaur and dragon beast modes.) This was a new and even madder Megatron.

''As described above, the time period from when Megatron broke free from the shuttle, to when Optimus Primal and the Maximals arrived on Cybertron, was vastly transformative for both Megatron and the planet, and probably constituted an epic story in its own right. Nevertheless, the period was only vaguely described in the animated series, and only slightly elaborated upon in secondary media. Many questions remain unanswered.''

When the Maximals arrived in their shuttle, they found the planet empty aside from countless [[Vehicon|mindless drones]] controlled by Megatron. Megatron's drones immediately bombarded the Maximals with [[devolving gas]] to revert their powerful [[Transmetal]] bodies to normal beast mode bodies, and they were also affected by a [[transformation lock]] virus which Megatron had used to help him conquer the planet in the first place.

Despite his best efforts, the Maximals escaped, and learned to transform again after Primal used the [[Oracle]]'s power to [[reformatting|reformat]] them. They began making short work of his Vehicons, so he removed three sparks from his collection to create [[Vehicon general]]s which could think on their feet in battle. For the generals he chose sparks of Transformers that the Maximals already knew, such that if they ever discovered the sparks' identities, they would be reluctant to destroy them: [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] became [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] became [[Tankor]], and [[Waspinator]] became [[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]]. After Jetstorm was reformatted into Silverbolt and Rhinox reawakened and destroyed, Megatron used the sparks of [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]] and [[Strika]] to replace them.

However, Megatron still retained his own beast mode, unwilling to take the momentary risk of transferring his spark to a new body. After releasing the energies of the [[Key to Vector Sigma]] and the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]], Megatron attempted to transfer his spark to another body, but wound of stuck in [[Savage/Noble]], a purely organic creature. Eventually, Megatron would transfer his spark to the [[Grand Mal]], a vessel shaped in his own head. He attempted to consume the captured sparks, but [[Nightscream]] managed to depolarize his spark, causing it to jump between discarded shells and attack everyone in a zombie like fashion. Rattrap would use a [[spark extractor]] to repolarize his spark, allowing Megatron to regain his senses, but trapping him in a [[Diagnostic Drone]].

Ultimately, Megatron succeeded in capturing the sparks of all the Maximals, leaving just Optimus Primal and himself as the only two Transformers on the entire planet. At the end of a fierce one-on-one fight, in which Megatron wore a copy of the powerful Optimal Optimus body, Megatron began consuming his amassed sparks, growing ever more powerful. However, when he attempted to use the [[Key to Vector Sigma]] to transform the planet's [[organic core]] into [[technomatter]], Primal managed to dislodge them both. They plummeted into the planet's goopy core and, somehow, Primal was able to reformat the entire planet, destroying himself and Megatron completely, but freeing all the lost sparks to repopulate their newly redecorated planet.

====''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story====

Both Megatron and Optimus Primal awoke inside a bizarre temple-like spaceship which was hurtling through space. Neither had any memory of who they were or how they got there, only their own names and a feeling of discomfort between one another. The pair went about investigating the ship in search of answers. While Megatron's memory was lost, his personality remained mostly intact: he was more concerned with sezing control of the ship before Primal did in order to gain the upper hand.

They eventually found a data log and discovered that their sparks had been taken and they were reborn into new bodies (unbeknownst to them, bodies identical to their original forms). However, their memories were intentionally not uploaded into their new bodies. While searching the log they discovered that the ship's main power source was a [[Golden Disk]] lodged within a giant pillar. Megatron immediately raced to obtain the Disk and Primal followed him. The closer they got to the disk the more the ship attempted to thwart their advance by manipulating its atmosphere conditions.

Once they reached the chamber the ship's environment suddenly morphed to that of a decaying planet littered with the corpses of robots. The corpses came to life and began shambling toward them, intent on eating their sparks. They made short work of the zombies, leaving Megatron to obtain the Golden Disk and Primal with a feeling that he shouldn't entirely trust Megatron.

From another dimension beyond time and space, [[Primus]] recognized that something was amiss and sent one of his messengers to meet Primal and Megatron within the spaceship.

====''Universe''====
When [[Optimus Primal]]'s spark is revived from the within the Matrix to protect the multiverse, this action freed Megatron's spark as well. The reborn Megatron returned to the ranks of the Predacons, but this time, Optimus Primal found himself in an uneasy alliance with him against Unicron. Megatron traveled with his old nemesis from universe to universe, wherever the growing multiversal conflict had spread. But now with Unicron disappeared into the [[Unicron Singularity]], it remains to be seen whether Megatron's insane ambition will resurface.

Prior to the Universe Conflict an alternate dimension's Megatron was killed by a [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Tigerhawk]] who was corrupted by the Vok. Yet another dimension's Megatron was killed by it's realities [[Obsidian (Universe)|Obsidian]] and [[Tankor (Universe Decepticon)|Tankor]]. All three Megatron-murderers were eventualy promoted to the rank of [[Unicron's General]]. It seems that killing Megatron may be part of Unicron's criteria for choosing a General.

===Transformers Legends Anthology===

==Toys==
===Beast Wars===
* '''Optimus Primal vs. Megatron''' (Basic 2-pack, 1996)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-6'''

: The initial version of ''Beast Wars'' Megatron transformed into a green alligator. He was only availble in this two pack with the bat version of Optimus Primal.

* '''Megatron''' (Ultra, 1996)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-1'''

[[Image:Bwmegatron_toy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Don't call him Barney.]]

: This Megatron transformed into a purple organic Tyrannosaurus dinosaur. He has limited articulation in beast mode, but his dinosaur head can shoot water. In robot mode, he has no hands, as his right arm ends with his dino head, and his tail, folded into a pincer, forms his left arm. The outer shells of his dinosaur thighs conceal spring-loaded missile launchers that fire anchor-shaped projectiles.

: His robot head feature two bat-like wing adornments that fold to become a battlemask.

: This mold was also used to make [[Beast_Machines|Beast Machines]] [[Dinobot_(BM)|Dinobots]] [[T-Wrecks]].

{{-}}

*'''Convobat vs Megaligator''' (Basic 2-pack, 1997)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''S-1'''

:This figure is a purple [[redeco]] of Megatron's Gator form, and was sold with a red and blue redeco of Bat Primal. This may or may not be intended to be the same character as Megatron or G1 Megatron.

* '''Megatron''' (Transmetal Mega, 1998)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-40'''

[[Image:BW_Megatron_Transmetal.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Ducky not included.]]

: The third ''Beast Wars'' Megatron toy transformed into a mechanical Tyrannosaurus. In beast mode he has some useful articulation, located in his legs, jaw and tail. As with all ''Transmetal'' toys, he has a 'third' vehicle mode, in this case a tyrannosaurus with rollerskates (which flipout from his legs) and jet engines on the sides on upper thighs.

: Really.

:In robot mode, he finally has two hands, with his tail becoming a flexible, segmented cutlass weapon, though it was depicted in most media as a new version of his main cannon. This cutlass/cannon weapon can be stored at his side on the connector piece it was attached to when it beast mode.

: There are some color differences between this the American and Japanese versions: the American had a light purple-ish glittery plastic for the beast-mode hands, tail, and skates while the Japanese had simple light gray instead. This mold was retooled used to make [[Armada]] [[Predacon_(Armada)|Predacon]].

* '''Megatron''' (Transmetal 2 Ultra, 1999)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-47'''

[[Image:BWdragonmegs_toy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Don't call him Mushu, either.]]

: The final version of ''Beast Wars'' Megatron transformed into a mostly mechanical dragon, with articulation in his legs, little dragon arms and his flexible, rubber neck with vacuum metalised overlapping plates attached on top. The neck was flexible able to be controlled and locked into position by a small lever located at its base. Two projectiles stored in his wings can be fired from a spring-loaded launcher inside his dragon's mouth.

:In robot mode, Megatron resembles a winged demon, appropriate given his characterisation. His chest is dominated by a small cockpit with a control chair inside (see Trivia). Megatron's dragon neck and head replaces his left arm, with an additional missile launcher above his helmet.

: ''Transmetal 2'' Megatron has a third 'vehicle' mode, which appears to be an afterthought, as it basically involves the dragon sitting very low to the ground so the wheels mounted on the legs and body can make contact and roll.

:This mold was also used to make [[Robots in Disguise|''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Cryotek]].

===Beast Machines===
* '''Megatron''' (Mega, 2000)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BR-05'''

[[Image:BMMegs_toy.jpg|left|thumb|165px|He's a flasher! Mangle!]]

: The first ''Beast Machines'' incarnation of Megatron is based on his ''Transmetal 2'' dragon form, but with ''Beast Machines'' design style at a lower price point. The result was a weak copy of the larger, much more detailed predecessor.

: Like his television counterpart, his wings can fold around himself to create the control armour/cloak.

{{-}}

* '''Megatron''' (McDonald's Happy Meal, 2000)
: Transforms from cloaked robot mode to a very weak dragon mode.

* '''Megatron''' (Kids' meal, 2000)

: The McDonald's Happy Meal Megatron was also released in Australia through the Red Rooster restaurant chain. Like the other three toys, it came in four color schemes. Strangely enough, the toy was labeled as "Nightscream" on the plastic baggy it came in.

* '''Beast Changer''' (Deluxe, 2001)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BR-11'''

: A toy version of [[Savage/Noble_(BM)|Savage/Noble]], he transforms from a wolf-creature to a dragon creature, with no robot mode.

: It was later redecoed in show-accurate colours for the Japanese ''Beast Wars Returns'' toyline.

* '''Megahead Megatron''' (Beast Wars Returns, 2005)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BR-12'''

: This is a Japanese-[[exclusive]] redeco of Robots in Disguise [[Megatron_(RID)|Megabolt Megatron]]. Megahead Megatron transforms into a head (its design based on the [[Grand Mal]] with scuttling spider-leg action, opening jaw for chip-eating action, and a hidden spring-loaded missile launcher in its mouth. In robot mode, the launcher swings over his head, placing a battle mask down over his face.

: '''Note:''' ''If one removes the toy's spider-legs in head mode, it fits into the head socket to the [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] main body. Though this is likely unintented, it is pointed out here as an extra play feature.''

===Robot Masters===
* '''Beast Megatron''' (2004)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-02'''

[[Image:24013-m.jpg|left|thumb|150px|"[[Dinobot (BW)|Utahraptor]], maybe in an alternate timeline I'm being less of a jerk right now, but that's just rampant speculation, okay?"]]

: Beast Megatron is a simplified version of the 1996 Ultra ''Beast Wars'' Megatron. Much smaller, it had a very similar transformation and had a sculpt resembling the television series CGI model, but a paint scheme similar to the original toy. He also came with a small laser rifle.

{{-}}

===Titanium Series===
* '''Beast Wars Megatron''' (3" Robot Master, 2006)

[[Image:Titanium_RM_BWMegatron.jpg|right|thumb|100px|"... my [[Rampage_(BW)|crazed crustacean]], do you realise what this [[Golden_Disk|means]]?"]]

: For the ''Titanium'' series, the initial 3" Megatron toy was based off his 1996 Ultra version. He's kind of squat.

{{-}}

===Beast Wars 10th Anniversary===

* '''Megatron''' (Beast Wars 10th Anniversary, 2006)

[[Image:BW_10th_Megatron.jpg|left|thumb|250px|"Grape-faces don't give up, they conquer!"]]

: For the 10th Anniversary of ''Beast Wars'', [[Hasbro]] created an all-new Deluxe-size tooling based mostly upon his original 1996 Tyrannosaurus form, but with technorganic detailing. When a [[Cyber Planet Key]] is inserted into his tail, it opens up to reveal a missile launcher.

: He is also packaged with a mini-comic-sized reprinting of [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[The Gathering]]'' #1, a small [[Darksyde|''Darksyde'']] ship figurine, and a [[Jungle Planet]] style Cyber Planet Key ''without'' a [[Cyber Key Code]] stamped on it. On its packaging, "Predacon" is misspelled as "Preadacon," but a sticker was placed over it with the proper spelling.

:This mold was [[redeco]]ed and released as [[Cybertron (toyline)|''Cybertron'']] [[Megatron_(Armada)|Megatron]]. It's worth noting that the scuplt for both BW10 leader toys were intentionally designed to blend in with the Jungle Planet aesthetic, "in case" they didn't get a Beast Wars Anniversary release (according to [[Aaron Archer]]'s statements at [[BotCon 2005]]).

* '''Optimus Primal vs. Megatron''' (Ultra 2-pack, 2006)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BWR-01'''

[[Image:BW_Megatron_BWReborn.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Is it me, or does his tail-weapon-thing have teeth?]]

: For the 10th Anniversary of ''Beast Wars'', [[Takara]] retooled the original 1996 Ultra-sized Megatron toy, giving him a new head sculpt and a new paint scheme based upon the appearance of the CGI model used in the ''Beast Wars'' television series.

: The 1996 Ultra-sized Optimus Primal was also retooled and redecoed in the same manner.

: Both figures were released in the US later as a 2-pack Toys-R-Us exclusive.

{{-}}

*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe, 2007)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''TM-02'''

: A redeco of ''Robot Masters'' Megatron, with extensive paint details based upon the larger Ultra class ''Beast Wars Reborn'' reissue. He came packed with a DVD of an episode of the japanese ''Beast Wars'' dub.

==Merchandise==

==Trivia==

[[Image:BWRConcept35.jpg|right|170px|thumb|TM2 Megatron's control art. Look! Spark figure! Painful amounts of detail!]]

*Originally, ''Transmetal 2'' Megatron, along with [[Optimus_Primal|Optimal Optimus]] and [[Tigerhawk_(BW)|Tigerhawk]] were to have small driver-like figures sitting on control chairs located in cockpits on their bodies. These drivers were meant to represent their sparks. But [[Hasbro]] then later realized that kids might confuse these spark representations as drivers controlling the robots, so they were abandoned, but the cockpits remain.
: However, the spark pilot was eventually used in the Japanese release of [[Cryotek]].

* In a bit of little known trivia, Hasbro originally intended Inferno to be the new body for Megatron. According to [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/browse_thread/thread/b334d45514e26ab4/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&lnk=st&q=bob+forward+interview+inferno+megatron&rnum=1#bc8e54e9165e0823 a 1997 interview conducted by fan HooksX], Bob Forward stated: "For a while there Hasbro was planning to make the Inferno toy the new Megatron. We were going to kill Megatron and bring him back as Inferno."

*Throughout the series, Megatron seems to have a mild obsession with creating clones of Dinobot, as seen with the purely biological clone, the cyber raptors and Dinobot 2. Some people never know when to let a relationship go.

*The Japanese dub of Beast Wars chose to interject humor at every available opportunity. Due to this, Megatron's personality and character were taken on a complete U-turn. Instead of being a smooth and charismatic leader, he was a screaming maniac and a bumbling oaf. His most notable character-trait in Japan was that whenever he was fired-upon or startled he would let-out a high-pitched shriek like a '''[[Scorponok (BW)|little girl]]'''.''

*Megatron's initial basic Beast Wars toy is a [[retool]] of [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]] with new alligator and robot heads, and no frill. The screw hole for the frill bracket remains. Both toys were released at roughly the same time.

*The concept art for the original Ultra class figure was largely the same, except in one minor difference: The left arm would have housed an open three clawed hand. The idea of that wouldn't be revisited until the 10th anniversary Deluxe Megatron.
{{-}}

* Aside from [[Silverbolt]], Megatron was the only character in the series to change the phylum of his animal form, first having a T-rex beast mode and then later acquiring a dragon beast mode.

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Predacon/MegatronGator/megatron.htm Megatron at TFU.info]
*[http://www.tfu.info/2001/Maximal/BeastChanger/beastchanger.htm Beast Changer at TFU.info]

[[Category: Beast Machines characters]]
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[[Category: Predacon leaders]]
[[Category: Robot Masters characters]]
[[Category: Rulers of Cybertron]]
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[[Category: Titanium Series]]
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[[Category: Transmetals 2]]
[[Category: Universe characters]]
[[Category: Vehicons]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scale

2007-10-23T01:20:17Z

220.239.53.20: /* Toys with roleplay altmodes */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And the truck's ''how'' big...?]]
'''Scale''' in the ''Transformers'' multiverse is, to put not too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no generation, era, franchise, fiction, toyline or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a consistent, logical or easily-believable fashion (Save perhaps, [[Alternators]], but we all know where [[Kiss Players|having a scale consistent with a young girl]] leads). Most fans would agree that one needs to either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to actually explain away these problems and in the process undoubtedly fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, this does not mean that the chronic scale problems of ''Transformers'' do not merit description.

==Scale within toylines==
===Toys out of scale with others in the same line===
As is generally well known, the early [[Generation 1 (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the entire pre-[[Transformers: The Movie|Movie]] lines, were created from repackaged and [[redeco]]ed toys from several different Japanese transforming toylines. The crucial point being that they came from ''different'' toylines. All characters (well, virtually all; see below) ''should'' be in correct scale to each other as they all are supposed to represent real-world altmodes that can pass for correctly-scaled vehicles. However, since the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not designed to be part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issue arise. ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other, but many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from the deformed [[penny-racer]] style proportions, even a comparatively small car such as a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen]] is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche]] that should be in the same scale. The disparity becomes all the more obvious with other [[minibot]]s such as [[Warpath]] and [[Seaspray]] whose [[altmode]]s would suggest that they should be many times their actual size.

[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|left|thumb|400px|That little guy — who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles — is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yyyeah.]]

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker]]s, who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 63.8' (19.44m) long; which, if correctly scaled, would make their robot modes ''colossal'' compared to most Autobots. Similarly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''Diaclone'' line, are too small. Far worse are the other ''Diaclone''-born combiner team, the [[Trainbot]]s, who have train engine altmodes, ''much'' larger than cars, yet their toys are among the ''smallest'' of the original ''Diaclone'' releases.

{{-}}

===Toys out of scale within teams===
Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other often suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon]]s are wildly out of scale to each other — [[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should dwarf the others, while [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] should be significantly smaller. Instead, they're about the same size. Among the aforementioned Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], like most dumptrucks in ''Transformers'', is actually one of those gigantic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg "earth-mover" mining trucks]. He should be able to carry all his teammates in his bed, with some crowding. Similarly, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (a Concorde jet) is dramatically undersized compared to his fighter-jet [[Aerialbot]] teammates. Assuming no size-changing, these scale problems are necessary to avoid massively misproportioned gestalt forms.

===Same altmode, different sizes===
Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or very similar) altmodes but whose toys are very different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into an F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. The same can be said for [[Breakdown]], who, having a Lamborghini Countach altmode, should be in scale with [[Sunstreaker]]. By the same token, Warpath should be roughly the same size as [[Blitzwing]], but is instead considerably smaller. These discrepancies are also seen in the [[Stunticon]]s and all the Special Teams/[[Scramble City]]-type combiners with Earth-based altmodes, whose toys are all out of scale to similar toys in earlier waves.

===Toys out of scale with themselves===
[[Triple Changer|Triple-Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a roughly 60' tanker truck into a 200'-plus jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier,'' presumably sized to carry quite a few Earth jets. More recent canon, such as [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia, suggest that this is possible due to a variety of sliding panels, essentially making the transformations akin to incredibly elaborate origami. You heard right; origami Transformers. Yup.

Even a two-mode toy can have this problem. For example, 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are proportionally too small for a Freightliner truck, while similarly his rear section onto which a trailer would be hitched is much too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give to his robot mode better robot proportions.

===Toys with roleplay altmodes===
The characters with roleplay altmodes such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]], or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Armada Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human (well, kid)-scale. Although the [[size changing]] seen in the fiction is not possible for real toys (at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes, e.g., [[Blaster]] in robot mode is quite a bit larger than most other Transformers.

The converse problem is seen with [[Megatron (G1) toys|Masterpiece Megatron]], whose robot mode was designed to be in scale with Masterpiece Optimus Prime. The result is that, while he transforms into a very accurately-proportioned handgun, it's much larger than the real thing.

===Fanciful altmodes===
Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Movie]] G1 characters (and, for that matter, most post-G1 ''lines'') are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into "futuristic" or "Cybertonian" vehicles for which there are no real-world specifications — or, indeed, they don't transform into vehicles at all. Therefore the scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] are fairly arbitrary and can at best be estimated by their relative size to characters of the same scale within the fiction (although most animation is highly inconsistent in this regard, see below.) Nevertheless, if one presumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended to house human passengers, comparisons of toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggest a scale disparity similar to other combiners.

===An exception===
There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness; the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every item is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car model, and thus they are in near-perfect scale with each other. Unfortunately, for practical reasons this limits the choice of altmodes. A Blast Off (space shuttle) Alternator toy would be 5.1' (1.6m) long, while a Broadside (aircraft carrier) Alternator toy would be over 40' (12m).

== Scale within fictions ==
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Frighteningly toy-accurate.]]

Scale issues abound within the fiction, especially the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]]. A lot can be attributed to animation errors, but some "errors" were deliberate choices, for a variety of reasons.

===Animated scale = toy scale===
In most cases, the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] depicts characters to the same relative scale as the toys (with all those inherent problems), when depicting the characters in robot modes. Prime, Megatron and Soundwave are generally animated at the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars slightly shorter (although not ''as'' much shorter as the actual toys are), and [[Minibot]]s are given a smaller stature again. However, these depictions were ''far'' from consistent.

===Variation for characterization===
[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|thumb|right|150px|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]] Some scale problems are for the sake of characterization. for example, Optimus Prime is routinely shown as being throughly gargantuan, equal to several stories in height and capable of cradling humans in the palm of one hand. Logically, assuming he's the same size as a real truck, and doesn't use size-changing technology, Prime in robot mode would probably be about 25'-30' (8m-10m) tall, at best. He's drawn large because he's a leader character.

Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown as being only a few feet taller than an average human, where in reality he would be around 10'-15' (3m-5m) tall. He's drawn small because he's a human-friendly character, and a junior member of the Autobots.

And those pesky [[Seeker]]s remain a walking scale problem; in reality they would be among the largest everyday Transformers and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries, whereas the animation generally depicts characters such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as being approximately the same height. Even though jets are much larger than cars, they're drawn the same height so that the battles appear fair. (And also to make it easier to animate; blocking a shot where characters differ radically in height is difficult.)

{{-}}

===Transport characters===
[[Image:MakeHoistHuffer.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Definitely ''not'' toy-accurate.]]Transformers that act as transport for other Transformers often implicitly change size to do so (and thus end up out-of-scale). However, [[size changing]] is rarely explicitly depicted except for characters with roleplay altmodes, such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]. Instead, the following method is used: A character such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] transforms in-frame from robot to shuttle with no visible expansion of size relative to his surroundings. Cut. In the following shot his fellow Decepticons are shown running into frame, suddenly relatively tiny in stature so that they can board the shuttle. Although Astrotrain has not been shown to actually grow (in the way Megatron perceptibly shrinks relative to his surroundings), one has to infer that this is more likely than that all his confederates have individually shrunk.

The same change-in-scale-via-implicit-size-changing is used with [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and other characters used as transport. For example, in the episode "[[Make Tracks]]", [[Hoist]], who is depicted as one of the larger Autobots in robot mode, is shown riding inside [[Huffer]], a Minibot whose truck mode is usually depicted as being smaller than Optimus Prime's. So either Huffer is extremely large in that scene, or Hoist is suddenly the size of a human.

===Combiner characters===
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|thumb|200px|. . . since when is a sedan nine stories tall?]]

[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown as [[That_big_green%2C_fire-snortin%27_lizard|Godzilla]]-sized, sometimes even the size of skyscrapers. When one thinks that their individual limbs are composed of mere cars and construction vehicles, this becomes patently absurd. ([[Superion (G1)|Superion]], by contrast, ''would'' be building-sized, given that his torso is a small passenger plane.)

Combiners are also often shown out-of-scale with other Transformers; a combiner with cars for legs and another car for its torso should be only twice as tall as a one-car Transformer, but they are routinely drawn as five to dozens of times taller than their comrades. Logically, this can only be accounted for by serious [[size changing|size-change-o-rama]] but no depiction of this process actually taking place is shown.

===Pretender characters===
The G1 [[Pretender|Pretenders]] had interesting scale issues. In the [[Generation 1 (Marvel Comics)|original comic]] the Pretenders appeared fairly literally as their toy counterparts; Transformer-sized robots inside (usually) humanoid shells. The result of was that the [[Autobot]] Pretenders were depicted as giant-sized humans. This successfully disguised them (for about five seconds, literally) from the Decepticons, and also hid their mechanical nature from aliens. However, it was utterly useless at fooling humans. Further, in ''[[Guess Who the Mecannibals are Having for Dinner?]],'' [[Cloudburst]] exited his shell, transformed into jet mode, and then his shell (as well as [[Landmine]]) boarded him as a passenger. The fact that his shell was now much smaller than the "inner" robot was quietly glossed over; one assumes the sort of size-changing mentioned under ''Transport characters,'' above, was involved.

In the U.S. toy commercials, Grimlock, Bumblebee, and Jazz in their new Pretender forms were depicted as small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand, so, in the [[micro-continuity]] of the commercials, at least, they were human-sized.

Although the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|original American cartoon]] did not feature any [[Pretender|Pretenders]], the Japanese-only continuity did, in their series ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]''. Here the Pretenders were not shells so much as ill-defined holistic transformations which explicitly involved size-changing, allowing the large Autobots to convincingly pass themselves off as humans. The Decepticons, by comparison, chose to retain their gigantic proportions when in Pretender-mode.

Although never depicted in any of their actual fiction, [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia included a description of their take on the Pretender concept. Something of a fusion of the above two, it described a physical shell that utilizes [[size changing|shrinking]] technology to achieve the ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Masterforce]]''-like capacity to pass the wearer off as a real human (or other bipedal lifeform of choice). Intriguingly, the profile also obliquely implies that such Pretender technology would/could later lead to the development of the synthetic faux-organic beast-mode tech of the [[Beast Era]].

===Scale problems and size-changing===
Some fans interpret otherwise-unexplained scale issues to all be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters used mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop a few feet of height for no apparent reason, the technology would seem pointlessly mundane. There's also no sensible reason for, e.g., the Seekers to choose to be ''shorter'' when going into battle. A to-scale Starscream in robot mode could swat Bumblebee around like a soccer ball. Furthermore there is no strong evidence in the series to indicate that size-changing is truly so widespread.

===''Transformers'' (2007) movie===
[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. OBVIOUSLY.]]

The creators of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] took great pains to avoid out-of-scale issues among characters with Earth-based alternate modes. (Well, "greater" than most previous franchises.) This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle ([[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is a extended hood truck cab in order to offer more mass to make a taller robot mode out of) or the design of their robot modes. For example, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade-style legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a huge, hulking, towering robot mode.

There are still scale issues to be found in the movie, though. For example, [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] can hold both [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]] and [[Mikaela Banes|Mikaela]] in one hand; yet when he picks up [[Archibald Witwicky|Archibald Witwicky's]] glasses, they're almost large enough for Bumblebee to wear (a visual cheat so the glasses between Prime's fingers are visible to the audience). Also, it's highly unlikely that [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy's]] head, which is about the size of a human head, can turn into a much smaller mobile phone.

{{-}}

==Show scale vs. toy scale==
Some characters have great discrepancies between their cartoon scale and their toy scale. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassettes|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot]]s, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized (which is odd, considering that Soundwave is capable of expanding to massive size).

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a recolour of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]

[[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. (Although, the Japanese [[Galaxy Force]] release, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] to indicate the "correct" scale.) Within the animation, though, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when directly interacting with their larger partners, have their relative size in relation to the toy . . . meaning some temporarily gigantic Mini-Cons!

{{-}}

==Small Transformers==
The assorted toys produced over the decades to hit the lowest price point usually include "mini" or "micro" in their name, and they usually are depicted as smaller than other Transformers in the fiction as well.

===Micromasters===
The [[Micromaster]]s are roughly human-sized in robot mode, and thus virtually all of them turn into (generic or specific) Earth vehicles that are patently incapable of seating human passengers inside them. The Marvel comic featured ''some'' of them implicitly size-changing to vehicles that were to human scale (as we saw humans riding inside), but this wasn't applied consistently.

The more recent [[Dreamwave]] miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' hinted at some kind of explanation, indicating that the Micromasters were Transformers scaled down to fit a smaller race of humans. This is met with skepticism from fans, as it still doesn't explain the scale problems ''within'' the line, as all Micromasters are about the same height in robot-mode, but transform into small cars, large trucks, planes, tanks, and other vehicles of vastly different size. The alleged "smaller race of humans" must thus vary in size quite a bit, and only the really teeny ones get to fly the planes . . .

However, there is little indication in most fiction that the Micromasters were (unlike the rest of G1) even ''supposed'' to have ''any'' scale. They were explictly downsized Transformers, and the scale problems that caused were tacitly acknowledged in the fiction. Their passenger compartments thus can be regarded as vestigial.

===Mini-Cons===
The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are another race of small robots who stand approximately the same height as a human and, like the Micromasters before them, are clearly modeled to include cockpits for carrying passengers. Really teeny passengers. (Notable exceptions are [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]], [[Sureshock]] and [[High Wire]], who become small one-man vehicles . . . well, ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Grindor doesn't.) In this continuity, who these passengers could possibly be is something of a mystery. (Though the possibility that the Mini-Cons simply scan normal vehicles and then resize them to fit their smaller bodies is viable.) In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] retain their slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough to contain a single human passenger, thus implying either a modest amount of size-changing, or that their cockpits are just kinda cramped.

==Big Transformers==
On the other end of the scale, the problems posed by really big Transformers lie in how they interact with normal-sized ones.

===Citybots===
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Okay, if you were ever ''this'' big in the cartoon, THEN we might be able to call you a city.]]

The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] each have altmodes which are described as a "city" (with Fort Max being supposedly the biggest of the four). However, the scale at which they could plausibly house enough humans, ''let alone'' Transformers, to be in any way reasonably defined as a "city" would suggest a robot-mode scale that would make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. No fiction to date, not even the very large depiction in the Japanese ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'' cartoon, even ''begins'' to approximate the size that a true "citybot" would logically become. In reality, the grossly-undersized depiction of [[Unicron]] (see below) would probably be closer to the scale of an actual transformed city. Which is ironic, as in Season 3 of the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] Unicron requires citybot eyes to replace his own shattered ones. (Though, "realistically", his eyes should be the size of Texas, if not larger.)

Rare examples which suggest a realistic citybot scale include occasional Japanese promotional art (e.g., at right).

Furthermore, there is virtually no way to reconcile the "city" altmodes of the actual toys with any believable use of the term. Using windows as even a vague scale, they would hardly qualify as a city ''block''. The cartoon episode ''[[Thief in the Night]]'' makes some headway in explaining this via an establishing shot that shows Metroplex to be only a small smaller sub-section of the "actual" Autobot City, although this was not repeated. It seems that in Transformer terms, "city" is better read as "large building".

Although little fiction to date has significantly featured the Headmaster leaders fulfilling their "city" roles, they have in the Japanese-exclusive cartoons been employed in their tertiary modes as massive starships capable of transporting and housing many normal-sized Transformers. Conversely, the Marvel [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] depicted Fort Max and Scorpy as merely "large-standard" size characters, of an equal height to Powermaster Optimus Prime and, in some UK issues, even the same as Rodimus Prime (to be fair, Powermaster Prime was often drawn "undersized" in the comics). Parts of ''[[Time Wars]]'' were notable in this department for featuring characters as diverse as [[Goldbug]], Fortress Maximus, and [[Blaster]] as all being the ''exact'' same height. Goldbug must transform into one big ol' car.

===Planets===
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|thumb|If we're generous and assume Cybertron is only the size of Earth's moon, then the larger visible buildings are roughly the size of Massachusetts stood on end, and you could wedge ''France'' into that gash. (Which would probably improve both Cybertron and France.)]]

Scale when it comes to planets is almost so fraught it's actively painful. The logic problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet-sized altmode, and that Cybertron is in turn supposed to be in scale with him. Although different fictions have compared both [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]/[[Primus]] and Unicron to drastically different Sol-system planets, the fact remains that they are supposed to be ''planets'', and yet across most fictions they are shown in such insane scale to characters that it would suggest they are barely the size of a very, very small moon (or a space station).

To start with, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself was depicted throughout G1 as having buildings visible from space. Although this was clearly intended to make it immediately obvious that the planet was entirely technological in nature, it actually makes no sense whatsoever, as such structures would have to be the size of small nations to actually be visible from such a distance. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be Transformers-scale skyscrapers (or even ''2000 A.D.'' style mega-bocks), Cybertron would still be barely a fraction the size of Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like orbit-views of Cybertron in the ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' cartoon may be less distinctive or recognizably "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.

[[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is ''tiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyy!!!'']]

Unicron, however, is a much more extreme problem. If one presumes that no [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, why would he want to become ''smaller''?), he would be so massive that any shot that features a recognizable ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be of such a scale that no normal Transformer would be visible. His depiction in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal-sized Cybertronian characters is blatantly absurd (regardless of how totally phat it looks). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye or ''especially'' picking up Galvatron between his thumb and forefinger before swallowing him (or, similarly in the comic, impaling [[Brainstorm (G1)|Brainstorm]] on his fingernail before crunching him between his teeth) bend any concept of "planetary" scale beyond breaking point. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron (in the image to the right) the size of Great Britain.

There is no explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada]]'' was (very debatably) a slight improvement, at least in as much as the concept of physical interaction with tiny beings was not even attempted. He preferred instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing [[Sideways|another body]] in their own scale. Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

===Big Toys===
It probably goes without saying that the citybot and planetbot toys are not remotely to scale with normal Transformer toys. While they are indeed ''large'' toys, they're only two to five times bigger than typical Transformer toys, and thus transform into "cities" and "planets" about the (relative) size of a house. However, it's hard to begrudge Hasbro not offering us a [[Primus]] toy the size of an asteroid. Where would we keep it?

== ''Beast Era'' scale ==
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I'm tellin' ya, ''all'' da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
In the ''[[Beast Era]]'' scale is not such a large issue, although it certainly does crop up in less obvious (depending on your point of view) ways.

=== Real world scale ===
Although the Beast Warriors all seem to exist quite happily in their own relative scale, their scale in relation to the real-world animals they have adopted as [[altmode]]s is more problematic. While the "giant insect" characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously not in real world scale, when considered carefully virtually none of the characters actually are. The only characters who have been clearly depicted interacting with real members of their adopted species are [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]], who (to take the former example) is seen attempting to interact with other cheetahs in ''[[Beast Wars, Part 1]]'', who react in fright. Cheetor was shown here to be in the same scale as real cheetahs, which effectively makes him the measuring stick for all other characters. Obviously [[Rattrap]] is therefore a monstrously huge rat, about the size of a large dog, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is probably a roughly normal-sized gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is therefore a positively dwarfish specimen of a ''Tyrannosaurus rex,'' possibly closer to a [[Wikipedia: Nanotyrannus|Nanotyrannus]].

The ''[[Beast Wars]]'' writers once noted that first-season Rattrap was five feet (1.5 metres) tall, and that the other characters can be scaled around that. This would make Rattrap one of the few Transformers who are ''shorter'' than the average adult human in robot mode.

In their few interactions with (adult) protohumans, the Cybertronian characters seem between twice and three times the average height of protohumans. Considering human ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this scale issue is not as extreme as it may appear, but the point deserves addressing. Oddly enough, the smaller Beast Warriors still seem to interact with Autobot-scale computers and spacecraft quite happily, as seen in "Nemesis Part Two, where the remaining Maximals take control of an Autobot Shuttle and fly it home.

=== Scale relative to G1 ===
[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|thumb|left|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. I guess the Blastizone adds on a few tons to [[Beast Era]] characters]]

[[Size changing]] appears to be a thing of the past by the Beast Era, as the majority of the Cybertronian race seems to have considerably downgraded in size, apparently due to the [[Maximal Upgrade]] Program (although this is of course a backwards rationalization, since the show's basic premise requires the characters to transform into (vaguely) normal-sized animals, compared to the G1 characters transforming into large vehicles etc.). When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are very small compared to the dormant G1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. They are roughly the size humans should be (but usually weren't) depicted in relation to these characters.

On the other hand ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted G1 and BW characters like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Primal]] as being exactly the same size. Yup. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]],
{{-}}

=== Toy scale vs. cartoon scale ===
[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Pick the Ultra-class figure.]]

The first season's cast of ''[[Beast Wars |Beast Wars]]'' characters were not designed in the same relative scale to each other as depicted in the toyline, although from Season 2 onwards the scales (and general appearance) of the cartoon became much more consistent with the newer toys (however previously featured characters, such as Waspinator, remained the same throughout).

For example, of the Season 1 Maximal crew, [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], Cheetor, [[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] and Rhinox are all from the same deluxe [[size class]], while [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and Rattrap are considerably smaller basics. Optimus Primal, an ultra, stands at virtually twice the size of the deluxes. In the show, Dinobot is the tallest, followed by Rhinox and a slightly shorter Optimus Primal, shorter again is Tigatron, while shorter still is Cheetor (despite being an identical mold) and Airazor, while Rattrap is marginally the shortest, but by no means to such a degree as his toy would suggest.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was far worse in terms of scale discrepancies with its cartoon, with the tallest character [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] becoming the shortest ([[micro-continuity|show-featured]]) Maximal toy, and similarly the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] was enlarged to a massive ultra-class. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy in the line (well, ''sorta'' in the line...) "Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]]" was rendered as an enormous supreme figure, completely incompatible with the other toys.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:Toys]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category: Things that don't exist]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scale

2007-10-23T00:52:59Z

220.239.53.20: /* Toys out of scale with others in the same line */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And the truck's ''how'' big...?]]
'''Scale''' in the ''Transformers'' multiverse is, to put not too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no generation, era, franchise, fiction, toyline or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a consistent, logical or easily-believable fashion (Save perhaps, [[Alternators]], but we all know where [[Kiss Players|having a scale consistent with a young girl]] leads). Most fans would agree that one needs to either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to actually explain away these problems and in the process undoubtedly fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, this does not mean that the chronic scale problems of ''Transformers'' do not merit description.

==Scale within toylines==
===Toys out of scale with others in the same line===
As is generally well known, the early [[Generation 1 (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the entire pre-[[Transformers: The Movie|Movie]] lines, were created from repackaged and [[redeco]]ed toys from several different Japanese transforming toylines. The crucial point being that they came from ''different'' toylines. All characters (well, virtually all; see below) ''should'' be in correct scale to each other as they all are supposed to represent real-world altmodes that can pass for correctly-scaled vehicles. However, since the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not designed to be part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issue arise. ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other, but many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from the deformed [[penny-racer]] style proportions, even a comparatively small car such as a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen]] is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche]] that should be in the same scale. The disparity becomes all the more obvious with other [[minibot]]s such as [[Warpath]] and [[Seaspray]] whose [[altmode]]s would suggest that they should be many times their actual size.

[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|left|thumb|400px|That little guy — who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles — is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yyyeah.]]

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker]]s, who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 63.8' (19.44m) long; which, if correctly scaled, would make their robot modes ''colossal'' compared to most Autobots. Similarly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''Diaclone'' line, are too small. Far worse are the other ''Diaclone''-born combiner team, the [[Trainbot]]s, who have train engine altmodes, ''much'' larger than cars, yet their toys are among the ''smallest'' of the original ''Diaclone'' releases.

{{-}}

===Toys out of scale within teams===
Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other often suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon]]s are wildly out of scale to each other — [[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should dwarf the others, while [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] should be significantly smaller. Instead, they're about the same size. Among the aforementioned Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], like most dumptrucks in ''Transformers'', is actually one of those gigantic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg "earth-mover" mining trucks]. He should be able to carry all his teammates in his bed, with some crowding. Similarly, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (a Concorde jet) is dramatically undersized compared to his fighter-jet [[Aerialbot]] teammates. Assuming no size-changing, these scale problems are necessary to avoid massively misproportioned gestalt forms.

===Same altmode, different sizes===
Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or very similar) altmodes but whose toys are very different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into an F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. The same can be said for [[Breakdown]], who, having a Lamborghini Countach altmode, should be in scale with [[Sunstreaker]]. By the same token, Warpath should be roughly the same size as [[Blitzwing]], but is instead considerably smaller. These discrepancies are also seen in the [[Stunticon]]s and all the Special Teams/[[Scramble City]]-type combiners with Earth-based altmodes, whose toys are all out of scale to similar toys in earlier waves.

===Toys out of scale with themselves===
[[Triple Changer|Triple-Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a roughly 60' tanker truck into a 200'-plus jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier,'' presumably sized to carry quite a few Earth jets. More recent canon, such as [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia, suggest that this is possible due to a variety of sliding panels, essentially making the transformations akin to incredibly elaborate origami. You heard right; origami Transformers. Yup.

Even a two-mode toy can have this problem. For example, 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are proportionally too small for a Freightliner truck, while similarly his rear section onto which a trailer would be hitched is much too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give to his robot mode better robot proportions.

===Toys with roleplay altmodes===
The characters with roleplay altmodes such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]], or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Armada Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human (well, kid)-scale. Although the [[size changing]] seen in the fiction is not possible for real toys (at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes, e.g., [[Blaster]] in robot mode is quite a bit larger than most other Transformers.

The converse problem is seen with Masterpiece Megatron, whose robot mode was designed to be in scale with Masterpiece Optimus Prime. The result is that, while he transforms into a very accurately-proportioned handgun, it's much larger than the real thing.

===Fanciful altmodes===
Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Movie]] G1 characters (and, for that matter, most post-G1 ''lines'') are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into "futuristic" or "Cybertonian" vehicles for which there are no real-world specifications — or, indeed, they don't transform into vehicles at all. Therefore the scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] are fairly arbitrary and can at best be estimated by their relative size to characters of the same scale within the fiction (although most animation is highly inconsistent in this regard, see below.) Nevertheless, if one presumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended to house human passengers, comparisons of toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggest a scale disparity similar to other combiners.

===An exception===
There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness; the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every item is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car model, and thus they are in near-perfect scale with each other. Unfortunately, for practical reasons this limits the choice of altmodes. A Blast Off (space shuttle) Alternator toy would be 5.1' (1.6m) long, while a Broadside (aircraft carrier) Alternator toy would be over 40' (12m).

== Scale within fictions ==
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Frighteningly toy-accurate.]]

Scale issues abound within the fiction, especially the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]]. A lot can be attributed to animation errors, but some "errors" were deliberate choices, for a variety of reasons.

===Animated scale = toy scale===
In most cases, the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] depicts characters to the same relative scale as the toys (with all those inherent problems), when depicting the characters in robot modes. Prime, Megatron and Soundwave are generally animated at the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars slightly shorter (although not ''as'' much shorter as the actual toys are), and [[Minibot]]s are given a smaller stature again. However, these depictions were ''far'' from consistent.

===Variation for characterization===
[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|thumb|right|150px|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]] Some scale problems are for the sake of characterization. for example, Optimus Prime is routinely shown as being throughly gargantuan, equal to several stories in height and capable of cradling humans in the palm of one hand. Logically, assuming he's the same size as a real truck, and doesn't use size-changing technology, Prime in robot mode would probably be about 25'-30' (8m-10m) tall, at best. He's drawn large because he's a leader character.

Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown as being only a few feet taller than an average human, where in reality he would be around 10'-15' (3m-5m) tall. He's drawn small because he's a human-friendly character, and a junior member of the Autobots.

And those pesky [[Seeker]]s remain a walking scale problem; in reality they would be among the largest everyday Transformers and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries, whereas the animation generally depicts characters such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as being approximately the same height. Even though jets are much larger than cars, they're drawn the same height so that the battles appear fair. (And also to make it easier to animate; blocking a shot where characters differ radically in height is difficult.)

{{-}}

===Transport characters===
[[Image:MakeHoistHuffer.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Definitely ''not'' toy-accurate.]]Transformers that act as transport for other Transformers often implicitly change size to do so (and thus end up out-of-scale). However, [[size changing]] is rarely explicitly depicted except for characters with roleplay altmodes, such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]. Instead, the following method is used: A character such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] transforms in-frame from robot to shuttle with no visible expansion of size relative to his surroundings. Cut. In the following shot his fellow Decepticons are shown running into frame, suddenly relatively tiny in stature so that they can board the shuttle. Although Astrotrain has not been shown to actually grow (in the way Megatron perceptibly shrinks relative to his surroundings), one has to infer that this is more likely than that all his confederates have individually shrunk.

The same change-in-scale-via-implicit-size-changing is used with [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and other characters used as transport. For example, in the episode "[[Make Tracks]]", [[Hoist]], who is depicted as one of the larger Autobots in robot mode, is shown riding inside [[Huffer]], a Minibot whose truck mode is usually depicted as being smaller than Optimus Prime's. So either Huffer is extremely large in that scene, or Hoist is suddenly the size of a human.

===Combiner characters===
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|thumb|200px|. . . since when is a sedan nine stories tall?]]

[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown as [[That_big_green%2C_fire-snortin%27_lizard|Godzilla]]-sized, sometimes even the size of skyscrapers. When one thinks that their individual limbs are composed of mere cars and construction vehicles, this becomes patently absurd. ([[Superion (G1)|Superion]], by contrast, ''would'' be building-sized, given that his torso is a small passenger plane.)

Combiners are also often shown out-of-scale with other Transformers; a combiner with cars for legs and another car for its torso should be only twice as tall as a one-car Transformer, but they are routinely drawn as five to dozens of times taller than their comrades. Logically, this can only be accounted for by serious [[size changing|size-change-o-rama]] but no depiction of this process actually taking place is shown.

===Pretender characters===
The G1 [[Pretender|Pretenders]] had interesting scale issues. In the [[Generation 1 (Marvel Comics)|original comic]] the Pretenders appeared fairly literally as their toy counterparts; Transformer-sized robots inside (usually) humanoid shells. The result of was that the [[Autobot]] Pretenders were depicted as giant-sized humans. This successfully disguised them (for about five seconds, literally) from the Decepticons, and also hid their mechanical nature from aliens. However, it was utterly useless at fooling humans. Further, in ''[[Guess Who the Mecannibals are Having for Dinner?]],'' [[Cloudburst]] exited his shell, transformed into jet mode, and then his shell (as well as [[Landmine]]) boarded him as a passenger. The fact that his shell was now much smaller than the "inner" robot was quietly glossed over; one assumes the sort of size-changing mentioned under ''Transport characters,'' above, was involved.

In the U.S. toy commercials, Grimlock, Bumblebee, and Jazz in their new Pretender forms were depicted as small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand, so, in the [[micro-continuity]] of the commercials, at least, they were human-sized.

Although the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|original American cartoon]] did not feature any [[Pretender|Pretenders]], the Japanese-only continuity did, in their series ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]''. Here the Pretenders were not shells so much as ill-defined holistic transformations which explicitly involved size-changing, allowing the large Autobots to convincingly pass themselves off as humans. The Decepticons, by comparison, chose to retain their gigantic proportions when in Pretender-mode.

Although never depicted in any of their actual fiction, [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia included a description of their take on the Pretender concept. Something of a fusion of the above two, it described a physical shell that utilizes [[size changing|shrinking]] technology to achieve the ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Masterforce]]''-like capacity to pass the wearer off as a real human (or other bipedal lifeform of choice). Intriguingly, the profile also obliquely implies that such Pretender technology would/could later lead to the development of the synthetic faux-organic beast-mode tech of the [[Beast Era]].

===Scale problems and size-changing===
Some fans interpret otherwise-unexplained scale issues to all be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters used mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop a few feet of height for no apparent reason, the technology would seem pointlessly mundane. There's also no sensible reason for, e.g., the Seekers to choose to be ''shorter'' when going into battle. A to-scale Starscream in robot mode could swat Bumblebee around like a soccer ball. Furthermore there is no strong evidence in the series to indicate that size-changing is truly so widespread.

===''Transformers'' (2007) movie===
[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. OBVIOUSLY.]]

The creators of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] took great pains to avoid out-of-scale issues among characters with Earth-based alternate modes. (Well, "greater" than most previous franchises.) This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle ([[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is a extended hood truck cab in order to offer more mass to make a taller robot mode out of) or the design of their robot modes. For example, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade-style legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a huge, hulking, towering robot mode.

There are still scale issues to be found in the movie, though. For example, [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] can hold both [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]] and [[Mikaela Banes|Mikaela]] in one hand; yet when he picks up [[Archibald Witwicky|Archibald Witwicky's]] glasses, they're almost large enough for Bumblebee to wear (a visual cheat so the glasses between Prime's fingers are visible to the audience). Also, it's highly unlikely that [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy's]] head, which is about the size of a human head, can turn into a much smaller mobile phone.

{{-}}

==Show scale vs. toy scale==
Some characters have great discrepancies between their cartoon scale and their toy scale. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassettes|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot]]s, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized (which is odd, considering that Soundwave is capable of expanding to massive size).

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a recolour of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]

[[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. (Although, the Japanese [[Galaxy Force]] release, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] to indicate the "correct" scale.) Within the animation, though, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when directly interacting with their larger partners, have their relative size in relation to the toy . . . meaning some temporarily gigantic Mini-Cons!

{{-}}

==Small Transformers==
The assorted toys produced over the decades to hit the lowest price point usually include "mini" or "micro" in their name, and they usually are depicted as smaller than other Transformers in the fiction as well.

===Micromasters===
The [[Micromaster]]s are roughly human-sized in robot mode, and thus virtually all of them turn into (generic or specific) Earth vehicles that are patently incapable of seating human passengers inside them. The Marvel comic featured ''some'' of them implicitly size-changing to vehicles that were to human scale (as we saw humans riding inside), but this wasn't applied consistently.

The more recent [[Dreamwave]] miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' hinted at some kind of explanation, indicating that the Micromasters were Transformers scaled down to fit a smaller race of humans. This is met with skepticism from fans, as it still doesn't explain the scale problems ''within'' the line, as all Micromasters are about the same height in robot-mode, but transform into small cars, large trucks, planes, tanks, and other vehicles of vastly different size. The alleged "smaller race of humans" must thus vary in size quite a bit, and only the really teeny ones get to fly the planes . . .

However, there is little indication in most fiction that the Micromasters were (unlike the rest of G1) even ''supposed'' to have ''any'' scale. They were explictly downsized Transformers, and the scale problems that caused were tacitly acknowledged in the fiction. Their passenger compartments thus can be regarded as vestigial.

===Mini-Cons===
The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are another race of small robots who stand approximately the same height as a human and, like the Micromasters before them, are clearly modeled to include cockpits for carrying passengers. Really teeny passengers. (Notable exceptions are [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]], [[Sureshock]] and [[High Wire]], who become small one-man vehicles . . . well, ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Grindor doesn't.) In this continuity, who these passengers could possibly be is something of a mystery. (Though the possibility that the Mini-Cons simply scan normal vehicles and then resize them to fit their smaller bodies is viable.) In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] retain their slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough to contain a single human passenger, thus implying either a modest amount of size-changing, or that their cockpits are just kinda cramped.

==Big Transformers==
On the other end of the scale, the problems posed by really big Transformers lie in how they interact with normal-sized ones.

===Citybots===
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Okay, if you were ever ''this'' big in the cartoon, THEN we might be able to call you a city.]]

The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] each have altmodes which are described as a "city" (with Fort Max being supposedly the biggest of the four). However, the scale at which they could plausibly house enough humans, ''let alone'' Transformers, to be in any way reasonably defined as a "city" would suggest a robot-mode scale that would make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. No fiction to date, not even the very large depiction in the Japanese ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'' cartoon, even ''begins'' to approximate the size that a true "citybot" would logically become. In reality, the grossly-undersized depiction of [[Unicron]] (see below) would probably be closer to the scale of an actual transformed city. Which is ironic, as in Season 3 of the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] Unicron requires citybot eyes to replace his own shattered ones. (Though, "realistically", his eyes should be the size of Texas, if not larger.)

Rare examples which suggest a realistic citybot scale include occasional Japanese promotional art (e.g., at right).

Furthermore, there is virtually no way to reconcile the "city" altmodes of the actual toys with any believable use of the term. Using windows as even a vague scale, they would hardly qualify as a city ''block''. The cartoon episode ''[[Thief in the Night]]'' makes some headway in explaining this via an establishing shot that shows Metroplex to be only a small smaller sub-section of the "actual" Autobot City, although this was not repeated. It seems that in Transformer terms, "city" is better read as "large building".

Although little fiction to date has significantly featured the Headmaster leaders fulfilling their "city" roles, they have in the Japanese-exclusive cartoons been employed in their tertiary modes as massive starships capable of transporting and housing many normal-sized Transformers. Conversely, the Marvel [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] depicted Fort Max and Scorpy as merely "large-standard" size characters, of an equal height to Powermaster Optimus Prime and, in some UK issues, even the same as Rodimus Prime (to be fair, Powermaster Prime was often drawn "undersized" in the comics). Parts of ''[[Time Wars]]'' were notable in this department for featuring characters as diverse as [[Goldbug]], Fortress Maximus, and [[Blaster]] as all being the ''exact'' same height. Goldbug must transform into one big ol' car.

===Planets===
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|thumb|If we're generous and assume Cybertron is only the size of Earth's moon, then the larger visible buildings are roughly the size of Massachusetts stood on end, and you could wedge ''France'' into that gash. (Which would probably improve both Cybertron and France.)]]

Scale when it comes to planets is almost so fraught it's actively painful. The logic problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet-sized altmode, and that Cybertron is in turn supposed to be in scale with him. Although different fictions have compared both [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]/[[Primus]] and Unicron to drastically different Sol-system planets, the fact remains that they are supposed to be ''planets'', and yet across most fictions they are shown in such insane scale to characters that it would suggest they are barely the size of a very, very small moon (or a space station).

To start with, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself was depicted throughout G1 as having buildings visible from space. Although this was clearly intended to make it immediately obvious that the planet was entirely technological in nature, it actually makes no sense whatsoever, as such structures would have to be the size of small nations to actually be visible from such a distance. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be Transformers-scale skyscrapers (or even ''2000 A.D.'' style mega-bocks), Cybertron would still be barely a fraction the size of Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like orbit-views of Cybertron in the ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' cartoon may be less distinctive or recognizably "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.

[[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is ''tiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyy!!!'']]

Unicron, however, is a much more extreme problem. If one presumes that no [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, why would he want to become ''smaller''?), he would be so massive that any shot that features a recognizable ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be of such a scale that no normal Transformer would be visible. His depiction in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal-sized Cybertronian characters is blatantly absurd (regardless of how totally phat it looks). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye or ''especially'' picking up Galvatron between his thumb and forefinger before swallowing him (or, similarly in the comic, impaling [[Brainstorm (G1)|Brainstorm]] on his fingernail before crunching him between his teeth) bend any concept of "planetary" scale beyond breaking point. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron (in the image to the right) the size of Great Britain.

There is no explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada]]'' was (very debatably) a slight improvement, at least in as much as the concept of physical interaction with tiny beings was not even attempted. He preferred instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing [[Sideways|another body]] in their own scale. Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

===Big Toys===
It probably goes without saying that the citybot and planetbot toys are not remotely to scale with normal Transformer toys. While they are indeed ''large'' toys, they're only two to five times bigger than typical Transformer toys, and thus transform into "cities" and "planets" about the (relative) size of a house. However, it's hard to begrudge Hasbro not offering us a [[Primus]] toy the size of an asteroid. Where would we keep it?

== ''Beast Era'' scale ==
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I'm tellin' ya, ''all'' da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
In the ''[[Beast Era]]'' scale is not such a large issue, although it certainly does crop up in less obvious (depending on your point of view) ways.

=== Real world scale ===
Although the Beast Warriors all seem to exist quite happily in their own relative scale, their scale in relation to the real-world animals they have adopted as [[altmode]]s is more problematic. While the "giant insect" characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously not in real world scale, when considered carefully virtually none of the characters actually are. The only characters who have been clearly depicted interacting with real members of their adopted species are [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]], who (to take the former example) is seen attempting to interact with other cheetahs in ''[[Beast Wars, Part 1]]'', who react in fright. Cheetor was shown here to be in the same scale as real cheetahs, which effectively makes him the measuring stick for all other characters. Obviously [[Rattrap]] is therefore a monstrously huge rat, about the size of a large dog, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is probably a roughly normal-sized gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is therefore a positively dwarfish specimen of a ''Tyrannosaurus rex,'' possibly closer to a [[Wikipedia: Nanotyrannus|Nanotyrannus]].

The ''[[Beast Wars]]'' writers once noted that first-season Rattrap was five feet (1.5 metres) tall, and that the other characters can be scaled around that. This would make Rattrap one of the few Transformers who are ''shorter'' than the average adult human in robot mode.

In their few interactions with (adult) protohumans, the Cybertronian characters seem between twice and three times the average height of protohumans. Considering human ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this scale issue is not as extreme as it may appear, but the point deserves addressing. Oddly enough, the smaller Beast Warriors still seem to interact with Autobot-scale computers and spacecraft quite happily, as seen in "Nemesis Part Two, where the remaining Maximals take control of an Autobot Shuttle and fly it home.

=== Scale relative to G1 ===
[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|thumb|left|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. I guess the Blastizone adds on a few tons to [[Beast Era]] characters]]

[[Size changing]] appears to be a thing of the past by the Beast Era, as the majority of the Cybertronian race seems to have considerably downgraded in size, apparently due to the [[Maximal Upgrade]] Program (although this is of course a backwards rationalization, since the show's basic premise requires the characters to transform into (vaguely) normal-sized animals, compared to the G1 characters transforming into large vehicles etc.). When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are very small compared to the dormant G1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. They are roughly the size humans should be (but usually weren't) depicted in relation to these characters.

On the other hand ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted G1 and BW characters like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Primal]] as being exactly the same size. Yup. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]],
{{-}}

=== Toy scale vs. cartoon scale ===
[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Pick the Ultra-class figure.]]

The first season's cast of ''[[Beast Wars |Beast Wars]]'' characters were not designed in the same relative scale to each other as depicted in the toyline, although from Season 2 onwards the scales (and general appearance) of the cartoon became much more consistent with the newer toys (however previously featured characters, such as Waspinator, remained the same throughout).

For example, of the Season 1 Maximal crew, [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], Cheetor, [[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] and Rhinox are all from the same deluxe [[size class]], while [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and Rattrap are considerably smaller basics. Optimus Primal, an ultra, stands at virtually twice the size of the deluxes. In the show, Dinobot is the tallest, followed by Rhinox and a slightly shorter Optimus Primal, shorter again is Tigatron, while shorter still is Cheetor (despite being an identical mold) and Airazor, while Rattrap is marginally the shortest, but by no means to such a degree as his toy would suggest.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was far worse in terms of scale discrepancies with its cartoon, with the tallest character [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] becoming the shortest ([[micro-continuity|show-featured]]) Maximal toy, and similarly the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] was enlarged to a massive ultra-class. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy in the line (well, ''sorta'' in the line...) "Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]]" was rendered as an enormous supreme figure, completely incompatible with the other toys.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:Toys]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category: Things that don't exist]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Ultra Magnus (G1)

2007-10-22T02:24:24Z

220.239.53.20: /* Trivia */

{{disambig3|Ultra Magnus}}

:''Ultra Magnus is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Ultramagnusg1.jpg|300px|right|thumb|He can't deal with you now!]]

'''Ultra Magnus''' feels he is a soldier and nothing more. He very much prefers taking orders to giving them, and even avoids opportunities for higher responsibility. But when he is forced into those opportunities, he betrays his real talent for the job. He's strong, resolute, dependable, selfless, and courageous. Sadly, Ultra Magnus is the only Autobot who doesn't realize this.

Believing he is nothing but a soldier, Ultra Magnus is perfectly willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good if need be. He knows he's more powerful than the average Autobot, and will throw himself at larger threats accordingly. There is a special enmity between him and [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] for this reason, for Galvatron may be the most deadly foe of all. (Also, Galvatron, given his mental state, probably doesn't approve of people he's had blown up getting back up afterward. This can be seen as a sore point for Magnus, too.)

He is possibly [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s brother.

:''Italian name'': '''Convoy'''<br>
:''French-Canadian name'': '''Ultramag'''

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
====''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformer'' manga (Japan-only)====

:''('''Note''': The "Fight! Super Robot Life Transformer" manga takes place before the events of Transformers the Movie and around the events of Scramble City)''

Ultra Magnus first appeared to deliver Optimus Prime his trailer, containing a special cannon upgrade, the "Scramble Power Buster". They engage the Decepticons in battle and Ultra Magnus and Optimus Prime team-up to defeat the villains with their "Convoy Magnus Double Cross Kick".

Ultra Magnus also came up with the idea for the global underground transportation system, the [[Autobot Road]].

:''('''Note''': The manga specifically notes that Optimus Prime looks upon Ultra Magnus as his "Kid Brother". Although the manga is a supplement to the TV series, this family-dynamic between the two characters was never used in the cartoon.)''

====''Scramble City'' (Japan-only)====
Voice actor: [[Banjō Ginga]] (Japan)

''(Note: Scramble City takes place before the events of [[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Transformers the Movie]].)''

Ultra Magnus first came to Earth around the year 1986 to head-up the [[Scramble City]] (AKA [[Autobot City]]) project. Under his supervision, [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] was built. Unfortunately, Metroplex was discovered by the spy [[Ratbat]] under Ultra Magnus' watch, who leaked the location back to Megatron.

====''Binaltech'' (Japan-only)====

While Optimus Prime was fighting the Decepticon on Cybertron, he charged [[Ultra Magnus]] to protect the earth and to lead the construction of the new Autobot city. When the crisis annouced by Ravage arrived, he went with Ultra Magnus on a last chance mission to stop Unicron, while sending [[Skids (G1)|Skids]] into the past to restore the timeline so that recent events instigated by Ravage would not happen.

====''Transformers The Movie''====
Voice actors: [[Robert Stack]] → [[Jack Angel]] (US); [[Show Hayami]] (Japan)

By 2005, Ultra Magnus was the full-fledged City Commander for [[Autobot City]]. Autobot City was under his authority when Megatron and the Decepticons waged their full-scale attack. Ultra Magnus ordered [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] and [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] to transform it to battle-mode, but it only held the Decepticons off for so long. In the fight, [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] was mortally wounded. On his deathbed, Prime passed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] on to Ultra Magnus. Despite Magnus' own doubt, he took possession of Matrix, becoming the new [[Supreme Commander]] of the Autobots.

Autobot City was quickly attacked a second time by [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], the upgraded version of [[Megatron (G1)| Megatron]]. Ultra Magnus lured him away on his shuttle, but was eventually shot-down onto the [[Junkion (planet)|Planet of Junk]]. Galvatron tracked him there and Ultra Magnus managed to draw him away from the other Autobots to face the enemy alone. Magnus attempted to open the Matrix, but the Matrix would not open, and Ultra Magnus was blown to pieces. Galvatron took the Matrix, intending to use it to destroy [[Unicron]].

After the Autobots befriended the [[Junkion]]s, they used their expertise to rebuild Ultra Magnus. Magnus joined the other Autobots in the battle with Unicron on [[Cybertron]] and helped drive the last of the Decepticons from their home planet. {{Storylink|The Transformers: The Movie (1986)}}

====''Kiss Players'' (Japan-only)====
When [[Rodimus Prime]]'s defeat of [[Galvatron]] in 2005 led to the catastrophic destruction of [[Tokyo]], the new [[Autobot]] leader was consumed by guilt. He passed on the [[Matrix]] to Ultra Magnus in order to revert to [[Hot Rod]] and return to [[Earth]].

In 2007, when Earth's [[anti-electron]] field was taken down and Cybertronians could once again travel to the planet, Magnus decided to improve human/Transformer public relations by creating a singing group made up of both species to tour the planet and promote good will and mutual understanding. With the help of [[Blaster]] as the group's producer, the "[[Kiss Players (singing group)|Kiss Players]]" were born.

Magnus continued to serve as Autobot leader until Rodimus reclaimed the Matrix and resumed his post in 2010.

====''Season 3/2010''====
In 2006 (or 2010, if you're Japanese), Ultra Magnus ceased his role as a City Commander and became head-adviser to [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]], the new Supreme Commander of the Autobots and chosen one of the Matrix. At various times he was [[The Killing Jar|sucked into a black hole]], [[Only Human|turned into a synthetic human]] and [[Surprise Party|had a birthday party]].

When the [[Hate Plague]] possessed all of Earth and Cybertron, Ultra Magnus singled Rodimus Prime out of all the other Autobots and focused all his rage on him, vowing to track him wherever he went. Ultra Magnus was eventually cured of the Hate Plague when Optimus Prime came back from the dead (again). {{Storylink|The Return of Optimus Prime}}

====Manga====

=====The Transformer=====

=====Transformer: Big War=====

====''Rebirth'' (America-only)====

Some time later, Ultra Magnus helped defend Autobot City from a massive Decepticon assault, which was actually a diversion for the theft of the key to the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]]. Subsequent to the battle and discovery of the theft, Magnus accompanied Optimus Prime on a shuttle to Cybertron. After Prime got the answers he needed from [[Vector Sigma]], he decided to go to [[Nebulos]] and left Ultra Magnus in charge of Cybertron. {{Storylink|The Rebirth, Part 1}}

Ultra Magnus' tenure didn't go very well, as the selfsame massive Decepticon assault force was attacking the planet. Nonetheless, he and the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobot]]s struck at Galvatron, and may well have done him in if [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]'s reinforcements hadn't arrived. Magnus then ignominiously had his [[power pack]] torn out and slowly began to die from lack of energon. Still, he was able to relay Galvatron's crazed scheme to Optimus Prime and the Autobot [[Headmaster]]s before blacking out.

When Ultra Magnus next awoke, the Golden Age of Cybertron had come anew, and the Decepticons were seemingly defeated once and for all. {{Storylink|The Rebirth, Part 3}}

====''Headmasters'' (Japan-only)====
Voice actor: [[Hōchū Ōtsuka|Yoshitada Ōtsuka]] (Japan)

Ultra Magnus continued his work as Commander of Autobot City on Earth and was instrumental in several victories over the Decepticons. Because of this, [[Sixshot (G1)|Sixshot]] singled him out for assassination. Ultra Magnus and Sixshot engaged in a one-on-one duel outside Autobot City, and Ultra Magnus was completely wrecked by Sixshot's six transformations. He was finally done in by Sixshot's mysterious 7th transformation, "Wingwolf". After his death, Ultra Magnus was placed in a coffin and buried on Earth, the planet he loved so dearly.

====Generation 2 manga (Japan-only)====
=====E-Hobby=====

After his death at the hands of Sixshot, Ultra Magnus was allowed entry into the Matrix of Leadership, as he was it’s bearer for a brief time. But Ultra Magnus’ spark still was still restless, he knew he didn’t belong. Using the Cosmic Awareness that accompanies joining the Matrix to spy on the mortal relm, Ultra Magnus learned, by chance of Galvatron II and his massive [[Warworld|Mobile Battle Fortress]] putting the Galaxy at Risk. Determined to set things right, Magnus contacted Optimus Prime via their shared link to the Matrix, and resurrected himself in a similar body using Prime’s [[Reconfiguration Matrix]]. Ultra Magnus immediately set out to counter Galvatron II’s invasion and started raising forces of his own. On at least one occasion Ultra Magnus was so thoroughly trounced by Galvatron and his endless puns that he required saving by Optimus Prime in his new [[Black Body]].

In this new form Ultra Magnus is able to switch between various body types (including his original) at will, similar to Optimus Prime, thanks to his contact with the Reconfiguration Matrix. In addition, he is able to tap into his [[Laser Core]] to power his blaster and sword.

===Ladybird books continuity===
Ultra Magnus came from Cybertron to take over leadership of the Autobots after Optimus Prime disappeared. He is opposed by [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] as Decpticon leader and this is presented as a prolonged status quo rather than the rather brief version of this scenario presented in the animated continuity. Furthermore [[Spike Witwicky]] appears to still be a teenager at this point, making a setting date of 2005 unlikely.

Ultra Magnus functioning as Prime's successor for some time rather than being immediately replaced by [[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] is presented in this and other [[Micro-continuity|micro-continuities]] based on the action figure line rather than the film.

===Marvel Comics UK continuity===
:''('''Note''': Ultra Magnus appeared only in the Marvel UK books.)''

The remaining Autobot elders spent years designing Ultra Magnus, a leader to lift the resistance out of a deep darkness. He was finally given life in or shortly before 1986<ref>Ultra Magnus profile in Marvel UK #83</ref> for [[Operation:Volcano]]. His role was to act as the crucial back-up needed for the [[Wreckers]] to successfully destroy their Decepticon targets and then escape in one piece. A serious complication arose when the Matrix Flame, the sacred and eternal blaze linked directly to the [[Matrix of Leadership|Creation Matrix]] itself, suddenly extinguished. Fearing that something catastrophic had occurred on Earth to the Matrix and its bearer, Optimus Prime, Emirate Xaaron made the decision to send Ultra Magnus to that planet to investigate, even though Operation Volcano was unstoppably set to begin in ten cycles. Magnus traveled to Earth by way of [[Space Bridge]], and found the Ark's crew engaged in a deadly conflict with three new, yet unspeakably powerful, Decepticon warriors just as their leaders Optimus Prime, [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]], and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] vanished before their optic sensors. Initially concerned only with his investigation of Prime's sudden disappearance, Ultra Magnus ignored the plight of his fellow Autobots until he learned the two situations were linked; [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] and his lieutenants were time-travelers from 2006, having employed a mass-substitution mechanism that sent the three Autobots into limbo in order to accommodate their presence at this point in the timeline. This connection was revealed to him by three Autobots from 2006, who had traveled back in time themselves in order to stop Galvatron. They had a plan; they had the means; all they needed was for Ultra Magnus to keep him busy for, oh...an hour or two.

Easier said than done.

Magnus's battle with Galvatron carried them out of the isolated wilderness and onto a human freeway system. It ended when Ultra Magnus threw a tanker truck full of fuel into the path of Galvatron's particle cannon. Galvatron walked away from the blast -- Magnus didn't. Still, the future Autobots succeeded in tricking Galvatron into returning to the future with his plan incomplete, and the timeline more-or-less preserved. Unfortunately, Magnus was out of time: Operation Volcano proceeded without him, with disastrous results. Only one Decepticon was taken out, and the Wreckers' leader Impactor was killed protecting Xaaron. {{Storylink|Target 2006}}

Ultra Magnus would not meet his counterpart, Optimus Prime, until Prime was inadvertently transported back to Cybertron in battle with Megatron. Hooking up with [[Straxus|Lord Straxus]] at [[Polyhex]], [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] quickly disseminated false information about a new Decepticon made over to look exactly like Optimus Prime, planning to infiltrate the Autobot forces. Having temporarily assumed control of the Wreckers until their new leader, [[Springer]], was ready for command, Ultra Magnus led them in hunting down the "impostor". This Prime's behavior led Magnus to be suspicious of his information and, after summoning Emirate Xaaron, confirmed his suspicions and welcomed the true Optimus Prime back to Cybertron. Prime wasted no time leading Magnus and the others on a series of successful raids and strike missions against Decepticon-controlled territory. When Optimus decided to return home to Earth, however, Ultra Magnus was caught up in the space bridge's energy discharge as well, arriving on Earth but some considerable distance away from where Prime materialized. Having been frustrated ever since Impactor's death, Magnus welcomed the "vacation" this trip to Earth would provide him, as he took his time trying to track down the Ark's location.

For months, Ultra Magnus enjoyed a peaceful life in the American forests and wilderness, alone with his thoughts. A sudden seismic disturbance brought him back to reality, though, and into contact with three human females whose vehicle had been overturned by the tremor. One in particular, Cindy, took quite a liking to Magnus. As they traveled together to explore a nearby volcano and its connection to the tremors, Magnus was forced back into combat thanks to the arrival of his old sparring partner, the future Decepticon known as Galvatron. Galvatron had constructed a magma siphon atop the volcano's peak, and planned to convert the raw power of a volcanic eruption into enough energy to transform him into a god. Ultra Magnus teamed up with several Autobots from the future, who were trying to bring Galvatron back with them to face justice. Once again, Magnus was used as a "distraction" (read: living punching bag) while the future Autobots set up their plan to override Galvatron's time-jump mechanism and send them all back where they came from. Despite Ultra Magnus successfully getting the slag beat out of him, the override proved unsuccessful, sending only the Autobots back to 2007 and leaving Magnus virtually alone to deal with the fighting-mad Galvatron. Barely managing to rally his courage, Ultra Magnus threw himself into combat with Galvatron one more time, keeping him busy until the volcano exploded, destroying the power siphon and encasing both warriors in molten lava.

Several months later, Ultra Magnus was dug out of the volcano by the [[Sparkabot|Sparkler Mini-Bots]]. They had been sent to Earth by Springer to monitor the volcano in case Galvatron ever got free. When Galvatron DID free himself several days earlier, though, they found themselves hopelessly outmatched, and hoped Magnus would have better luck. Sadly, the severe beatings Galvatron had routinely handed out to Ultra Magnus, combined with the final excruciating submergence in molten lava, had nearly unhinged the Autobot's mind, leaving him with a pathological fear of his tormentor. Confronted with Galvatron, Magnus would probably have gone fetal if that pose had any meaning for his people. As the Sparklers heroically tried to stand up to Galvatron anyway, Ultra Magnus saw his rescuers in grave danger and finally managed to push his fear aside and reclaim enough confidence to batter the Decepticon into a temporary retreat. {{Storylink|Salvage!}}

Having renewed his fighting spirit, Ultra Magnus arranged to return to Cybertron with his companions in order to report on Galvatron's activities and hopefully gather the Wreckers for a counter-offensive. Instead, they found the Autobot base in Kalis full of battle signs, and the entire surrounding city-state a virtual "ghost-town". After confronting a legion of robot zombies, the Autobots eventually learned that a crazed scientist named [[Flame (UK comic)|Flame]] was trying to re-engineer the entire planet as a giant spacecraft, setting off an unstable fusion reactor beneath the planet's surface as a power source. With the help of the Wreckers and the Decepticons [[Flywheels]] and [[Trypticon]], Ultra Magnus and his team managed to put an end to Flame's maniacal scheme.

Ultra Magnus and the Wreckers then began preparations to return to Earth and confront the threat of Galvatron, finally, once and for all, and then...*poof*. The Wreckers went to Earth alone, and Ultra Magnus was never seen nor heard from again.

===Fun Publications ''Classics'' Comic===
[[Image:Classics Ultramagnus Springer Grimlock comic.jpg|right|thumb|300px|God, you can't get away from the perverts anywhere can you?]]

[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] likes to call him "Little Prime". How professionally embarrassing. {{storylink|Games of Deception}}

===Blackthorne Transformers In 3-D continuity===

===PD Type mini-comics===

At one point, the [[Blackball]] was left in the safekeeping of Ultra Magnus. Galvatron, catching Magnus by surprise, managed to blow him up with a powerful energy blast from his fusion cannon. Recovering the Blackball, Galvatron began to gloat about his victory. That's when Magnus' body hurled his head at Galvatron like a bowling ball, causing the [[Emperor of Destruction]] to fall over like a set of pins and drop the Blackball. That's ''using your head'', Magnus! *sigh*

===Dreamwave comics continuity===

[[Image:Magnuslongshot.jpg|left|thumb|250px|And then Takara saw this and were all like, "Oh, crap, that's right, we can do redecos, can't we?"]]

After Prime's and Megatron disappeared during the first space bridge incident {{storylink|The Dark Ages, Part 1}}, Ultra Magnus retreated from prominence in the Autobot army. However he was eventually able to overcome his own fear and take a role of leadership. Together with [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], he was on the verge of ending the war when Megatron arrived and enslaved the plane with the [[Aerospace Extermination Squadron]]. Magnus was put to work in a slave mines. {{storylink|The War Within: The Age of Wrath}}

Years later, Ultra Magnus and Shockwave worked together to replenish their armies in the [[Little Iacon]] incident. Many of the [[Micromasters]] created resented Ultra Magnus for bringing him into their war. {{storylink|Micromasters (comic)}}

After [[Great Shutdown]], [[Ultra Magnus]] was reactivated and took the role of security officer under [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave's]] rule, even if he was dissatisfied working under a leader who clearly held his own agenda. After many, many delays, Ultra Magnus confronted Shockwave about the mastermind's plans - but Magnus was silenced by gun fire. He survived by discarding his armor. {{storylink|War and Peace}}

After Shockwave had been removed from power, Ultra Magnus was content to oversee operations on Cybertron while Prime spent ten issues getting repaired.

{{-}}

===IDW comics continuity===
{{spoiler}}

Just before the war, Ultra Magnus (in Cybertronian cab robot mode) attended the funeral of [[Bumper]] and [[Fastback]]. Standing with him were [[Elita One]], [[Alpha Trion]], and a pre-Matrix version of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (who looks identical to Magnus other than being red and blue). {{storylink|Megatron Origin, Part 3}}

Countless years later, in the present day, although still a soldier, Magnus was an agent of the [[Tyrest Accord]]. Although never detailed, this Accord seems to be part of a greater [[Code of Interplanetary Conflict]], some form of treaty between Autobots, Decepticons and other alien races. As an enforcer of the Accord, Magnus hunts down any Transformers, Autobots or Decepticons alike, who illegally sell or distribute Cybertronian technology, handing them over to their superiors for prosecution.

One such violation saw Magnus pursue [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] to the planet [[Zull]]. After arresting the Combaticon, Magnus reluctantly released Swindle in exchange for the current whereabouts of an even greater offender: [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. Magnus had a personal grudge against Scorponok, who was the Autobot's polar opposite; while Magnus sets great stock in rules, Scorponok flouts them. Magnus followed Swindle's lead to the planet [[Nebulos]], but although he disrupted Scorponok's operations, the Decepticon was able to escape.

Later on, Magnus arrested Swindle for yet another violation, and once again, Swindle offered a deal, leaving Magnus to wonder whether it's necessary to break the rules to catch those who've been caught breaking them... {{storylink|Spotlight: Ultra Magnus}}

{{-}}
==Toys==
===Generation 1===
* '''Ultra Magnus''' (1986, 2000, 2002)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-69'''
[[Image:Ultramagnusg1toy.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Honkimus Prime.]]

: Ultra Magnus is a [[redeco]] of the [[Diaclone]] Powered Convoy toy, which itself was a redecoed Battle Convoy (pre-TF [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]) with a new trailer that combined with the cab robot to form a super robot. Whereas the original Japanese use was an upgrade to Convoy, Hasbro released him as a separate character and both the comic and the cartoon ignored the cab robot in favor of the super robot.

:Ultra Magnus transforms into a white Freightliner COE with a blue and red car-carrier trailer. He comes with a rifle that has two pegs that will fit into either the fist of the cab robot or fist of the super robot, and he also comes with two missile launchers that can plug into either the front of the trailer or the shoulders of the super robot. Additional accessories include the cab robot's fists, the super robot's fists, the super robot head, the super robot chestplate, and two crotchplates/trailer hitches.

:The original American toy was released in at least two versions -- one with [[rubber tires]] and paint on both heads, and a second with plastic tires and no paint on either head.

:Ultra Magnus was first reissued in Japan in 2000 with little to no changes. Two years later, Ultra Magnus was reissued as a Toys "R" Us exlusive in the United States in the first wave of the [[Commemorative Series]]; the American reissue's missiles were elongated to pass modern safety laws. Both reissues had rubber tires and the facial paint.

*'''Ultra Magnus Movie Preview version''' (2001)
: In the early stages of the development of the 1986 animated movie, several promotional clips for the movie were produced, including one depicting Ultra Magnus in the original Diaclone Powered Convoy color scheme. The Movie Preview toy was released in 2001 based on that brief (and premature) appearance, featuring a blue colored cab.

*'''Ultra Magnus Matrix Glow version''' (2001)
: With a yellow cab and a clear yellow trailer, Matrix Glow Ultra Magnus or Shining Magnus is intended to recall the moment in the animated movie, just before Optimus Prime dies, when the Matrix is passed to Ultra Magnus and he is bathed in its Matrixey yellow light. It was also released in 2001.

: This version is sometimes referred to by fans as "Urine Magnus", or slightly less-polite variations of the same.

===Generation 2===
* '''Laser Ultra Magnus''' (2006)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' ''' TRF-13-S'''

[[Image:G2_LaserUltraMagnus_toy.jpg|right|thumb|Probably the only Magnus repaint of Prime we'll ever get who isn't just white.]]

: An [[e-Hobby]] exclusive, ''Generation 2'' Laser Ultra Magnus is a redeco of Laser Optimus Prime, transforming into a mid-1990s Western Star 4964EX extended-hood truck pulling a blue and white tanker trailer. He was packaged in the reissue Laser Optimus Prime's box, along with Prime's instructions, bio card and sticker sheet. Yes, the stickers that have "Optimus Prime" written on them.

:In robot mode the bottom of the truck became his familiar windowed chest based upon the original Optimus Prime toy (and the original Ultra Magnus's cab). His main gimmick was light up LED headlights, and a [[lightpipe]] in the bottom of his right fist, illuminated by an LED in his right forearm, that would illuminate his clear sword or his double-barreled rifle if they were used in that hand. All three LEDs were activated simultaneously by pressing the sunroof-like depression on the roof of the truck.

:The trailer unfolds to form a battle station bristling with many firing weapons. Primarily, it can fire an air-powered missile launcher, a ripple rocket launcher with 5 missiles that can be launched individually (this turret can also be mounted in Laser Magnus' hand) and a 'disc launcher', that fired several white plastic discs. This disc launcher is the only weapon that can be used in vehicle mode.

:This release uses the toolings that were modified for the ''Robots in Disguise'' [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]] toy, and thus has smooth discs and a less pointy sword.

===Masterpiece===
* '''Ultra Magnus''' (2004)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-2'''

[[Image:Masterpiece_UltraMagnus_toy.jpg|left|thumb|He looks like this in ONE comic. ONE.]]

: ''Masterpiece'' Ultra Magnus is a white redeco of ''Masterpiece'' Convoy (Optimus Prime) with all the same accessories, though some have been redecoed. Additionally, his box can be refolded into his classic trailer configuration, but doesn't hold up since it's, well, cardboard. He retains the Matrix, which he can indeed open. Damnit, open.

: As a Takara product, ''Masterpiece'' Ultra Magnus was never released in the US, but was eventually released by Hasbro Australia in 2005 for their market as a Target-exclusive, retaining his Japanese packaging, with simple stickers stating a recommended age of 8+, as well as presenting Hasbro Australia's details and explaining what the product was.

{{-}}

===Classics===
*'''Ultra Magnus vs Skywarp: Battle For Autobot City''' (Multi-pack, 2007)
[[Image:ClassicsUltraMagnus_toy.jpg|right|thumb|Arctic Camo Prime!]]

: A [[redeco]] of the Voyager class Optimus Prime, this release is part of the Target [[exclusive]] ''Battle for Autobot City'' set with [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]]. The final production toy has several major paint paint application differences compared to the toy depicted on the packaging, including the loss of all light blue paint (including his faceplate and crest, both replaced with silver, darker blue on his thighs. Also his red eyes are replaced with the light piping color (blue). Additionally, it seems the smokestacks/double-barreled gun was originally going to be cast or painted white instead of the final's black.

: Like Optimus Prime, the toy's gimmicks are in his weapons - his smokestacks fold together to become a double-barreled gun, and his aero fairing splits and unfolds to become a large shotgun-like blaster. The two weapons also combine into a double-barreled shoulder cannon.

===Titanium Series===
*'''Ultra Magnus''' (6-inch Cybertron Heroes, 2007)
[[Image:TitaniumHero_UltraMagnus.jpg|left|thumb|Oh, that's right, this Ultra Magnus guy had a trailer or something, didn't he?]]

: ''Titanium Cybertron Heroes'' Ultra Magnus is an all-new sculpt constructed mostly of die-cast metal. For the first time, Ultra Magnus's cab and trailer are one piece, rather than a [[partsformer]] like the ''Generation 1'' toy version. He transforms very similarly to the original toy, but the aformentioned truck cab now folds down into his back rather than detaching and reconnecting, with his head fliping out of the back of the cab.

: Ultra Magnus is armed with a white laser rifle and two shoulder-mounted non-firing rocket launchers. Unfortunately due to the robot mode-oriented design of this figure, as well as size limitations, the rear ramp is now part of his legs as detail and cannot fold down, nor is there access for vehicles to be transported, in any case.

{{-}}

*'''Ultra Magnus''' (6-inch Cybertron Heroes, 2007)

: A [[redeco]] of the 6-inch War Within Optimus Prime. In white!

{{-}}

===Revoltech===

* '''Ultra Magnus''' (2007)
Ultra Magnus is, unsurprisingly, a redeco of a simultaneously-released Optimus Prime/Convoy figure. A non-transforming but ''highly'' articulate action figure, [[Revoltech]] Ultra Magnus uses the Revoltech "revolver joints" for maximum poseability. His sculpting is explicitly in the style of [[Pat Lee|Pat "serfdom" Lee]]'s interpretation of Prime.

Magnus comes with a Matrix and photon rifle accessories, as well as a few alternate hands. A unique extra "hand" is a single moulded piece of Ultra Magnus and Optimus Prime's hands clasped together diagonally, so that when attached to both the Prime and Magnus' respective wrists one can create a scene of the two Autobot leaders shakin' like homeys. Additionally, although Magnus comes preassembled with the standard black revolver joints that Prime has, his packaging includes a sheet of replacement white joints one can use to customise Magnus with less obrtusive matching white joints (although not enough joints of the right style are included to swap out all black joints to optimal effect).

{{-}}
==Merchandise==
*'''Ultra Magnus''' (Super Collection Figure, 2002)

*'''Ultra Magnus''' (Heroes of Cybertron, 2003)

*'''Ultra Magnus''' (Super Collection figure, 2003)

: "Movie preview" redeco of the Ultra Magnus PVC, based on the original toy's Diaclone colour scheme as seen in early trailers for the 1986 movie.

*'''Ultra Magnus''' (Hard Hero bust, 2004)

[[Image:Ultramagnushardhero.jpg|right|thumb|100px|UHN!]]

: The cold-cast porcelain bust of Ultra Magnus was the 13th in [[Hard Hero]]'s series of Transformers busts. It was designed from line art by [[Dan Khanna]].

*'''Ultra Magnus and Megatron''' (Robot Heroes PVC, 2007)

: This is a small, non-transforming SD figurine with limited articulation from the "Robot Heroes" line, in a two pack with G1 Megatron. He may be the sassiest bitch on Cybertron.

{{-}}

==Trivia==
[[Image:DiacloneMagnusAnime1.jpg|left|thumb| "Do you guys think my hair would look better in blue?"]]

* It has been speculated by some fans that, in animated continuity, Ultra Magnus may have been created from Orion Pax's friend [[Dion]], the same way and at the same time Prime and [[Elita One (G1)|Elita One]] were rebuilt by [[Alpha Trion]].
:''For further elaboration, see [[Dion#Who_is_Dion.3F|Who is Dion?]].''

* Ultra Magnus is Optimus Prime's brother in [[Dreamwave]] continuity, and possibly also in [[IDW]] continuity. Also, [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|a different Ultra Magnus]] is the brother of [[Optimus Prime (RID)|a different Optimus Prime]] in an [[Robots in Disguise|enitrely unrelated continuity family]].

* In early promotional trailers/test footage for ''[[TFTM|Transformers The Movie]]'', Ultra Magnus can be seen in alternate [[Autobot City]] sequences in his toy's original ''[[Diaclone]]'' color scheme, indicating the final coloration may have been a late change to the toy. This footage has appeared in various ''Transformers'' DVDs over the years.

* On that note, The ''Diaclone'' toy that would become Magnus --called "Powered Convoy"-- came in a couple different varieties. Aside from the version that was eventually turned into "Movie Preview" Magnus, there was a "mech" version that used a lighter gray outer plastic and chromed the central body/lower ramps of the trailer unit. This "mech" version was also available in a multi-pack with a red version of the toy that would become [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]], and the toy that would (20-ish years later) become [[Deep Cover]].

* The chest-plate for the large Magnus robot was originally a mini-jet for a single Diaclone pilot. The raised rectangle in the center is actually a mounting point for the large robot head, using the hole in the crest, which forms a booster engine and blasters for the craft. Because of this, the ''Diaclone'' version had wheels on its underside that were removed from the ''Transformers'' release.

* All versions of the ''Diaclone'' Powered Convoy toy came with a red "Powered Buggy" partner-robot that transformed from a futuristic buggy (with a space for a Diaclone pilot) to robot, which could also use the large rifle in either mode. Why this was excised from the ''Transformers'' incarnation is unknown. The Italian [[Trasformer]] (sic) line by [[GiG]], however, ''did'' release the vehicle as the "Super Buggy" on its own.

* The "[[Sport Label]]" subline from [[Takara]] features a Convoy (Optimus Prime) that transforms into a Nike sneaker. A [[redeco]] of this mold was done in white and aqua, giving it [[author intent|a very obvious]] Ultra Magnus vibe... but was marked as Convoy again. So, officially...
: (As an odd postscript to this tale of footware-induced madness, although the promo pictures all showed the shoeformer as a white and navy blue sneaker that transforms into a white and aqua blue robot, the product actually released sported [''geddit?''] much darker colours for all the robot-mode parts, with a deep teal instead of aqua, and almost all the white replaced by an icky tan-come-cream-come-grey colour, including the head. Basically, the figure looks like the promo picture viewed through really dark sunglasses. Although this certainly doesn't make it look any more like Prime, you might argue that it looks a little less like Magnus. Sorta. Maybe. Not really.)

{{-}}

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1986/Autobot/UltraMagnus/ultramagnus.htm Ultra Magnus at TFU.info]

*[http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Ultra_Magnus Ultra Magnus' Universe profile at NTFA.net]

* [http://www.diaclone.net/orid/dia057/index.html Diaclone Powered Convoy at Diaclone.net (Japanese-language site)]

{{stub}}

[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: Autobot leaders]]
[[Category: Classics characters]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category: Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category: Headmasters characters]]
[[Category: Kiss Players characters]]
[[Category: Robot Heroes]]
[[Category: Titanium Series]]
[[Category: Deputy Commanders]]
[[Category: Rulers of Cybertron]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Prime Spark (story)

2007-10-21T07:11:16Z

220.239.53.20: /* Comments */

'''Armada Optimus Prime encounters the shades of other Primes in a place near death.'''

==Vital Statistics==
'''Writer:''' [[Sean P. Fodera]] <br>
'''Pagecount:''' 21pp<br>
'''Major characters:'''
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Armada Optimus Prime]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Generation 1 Optimus Prime]]
* [[Optimus Primal]] x2
'''Originally published:''' In the [[Transformers Legends]] anthology, November 2004

==Synopsis==
Following his destruction at the hands of the [[Hydra Cannon]], Optimus Prime finds himself in [[Maccadam's Old Oil House]], encountering a similarly ghostly [[Optimus Primal]]. Both of their sparks 'split,' resulting in the arrivals of the original Optimus Prime, and a future Optimus Primal. ''(See [[#Trivia/Notes|Trivia/Notes]] for 'when' each version came from.)''

All four attempt to discern why they're here, eventually concluding that Armada Optimus Prime is the key, as he was here first. Optimus Primal theorizes that each of their sparks, though separate, have ''affinity'' across time, space and dimensions, drawn into similar events and conflicts with similarly affinitive sparks. (Their deaths at the hands of 3 respective Megatrons.)

Armada Optimus Prime's sacrifice differs from that of the others. While a leader is always prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice if there is no other choice, he must be cautious against the urge to sacrifice himself, especially when his leadership is still needed, especially as redemption for perceived mistakes. While a leader is responsible for his mistakes, he is also responsible for his troops, and cannot recklessly throw his life away, as Armada Optimus Prime attempted to do.

Armada Optimus' crisis of confidence resolved, all four briefly join, feeling the ''Prime Spark'', the part of all of their sparks that resonates as one (the affinity Primal theorized about,) then separate to share a drink together before fading back to their respective dimensions and eras.

On the way out, all four encounter their respective Megatrons, fresh from a similar meeting. They run at one another for a ''hilarious'' comedy moment before fading out.

With renewed vigor, Optimus Prime returns to life, ready to kick Decepticon skidplate!

==Continuity==
''Prime Spark'' takes place in late in Armada's cartoon continuity, spanning the 3 episode gap between [[Crisis]] and [[Miracle]] from Armada Optimus Prime's point of view. It also touches on the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' and the [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]] and [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]] television series.

==Trivia/Notes==
* Armada Optimus Prime comes from the moment of his destruction in [[Crisis]], the 39th episode of the Armada Cartoon series.
* Generation 1 Optimus Prime comes from the moment of his death defending Autobot City in [[Transformers: the Movie]].
* Optimus Primal comes from his destruction in a Transwarp explosion in [[Other voices, part 2]], the 26th episode of Beast Wars. His later incarnation arrives from his disintegration int he Plasma energy Chamber in [[End of the Line]], the 13th episode of Beast Machines.
* The physics text by [[Robert Nagisa]] that Generation 1 Optimus Prime mentions reading appears to be fictional.
* The meeting takes place in Armada's verion of Maccadam's Old Oil house, in the relative ''present'' of the animated series.
* Beast Machines Optimus Primal is described as huge and hulking, larger than Armada's [[Tidal Wave]]— the author was going by the toy, not realising the ''character'' was suppsoed to be much smaller than Optimus Prime.
* Two of the four Megatrons lack equivilant deaths for their meeting. This is glossed over.
* The Transformer generally regarded to be [[Maccadam]] is identified merely as ''the bartender'' in this story.

==Comments==
* This story is generally held in poor regard by fans. Its ''wouldn't it be cool if all the Primes met and did nothing?'' premise was greeted with a resounding "No."

* Also, ''[[Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Optimus Prime (RiD)|Optimus Prime]] is conspicuously absent. Okay, he had no death/rebirth to speak of, but still.

* The arbitrary naming structure used to differentiate the four Primes does improve readability.

* Although admittedly executed quite poorly, ''some'' deviant fans actually thought the general premise was cool. Well, cool in a mastabatory, fan-fiction kinda way...

[[Category:Armada]]
[[Category:Text stories]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scale

2007-10-02T04:50:48Z

220.239.53.20: /* Real world scale */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And the truck's ''how'' big...?]]
'''Scale''' in the ''Transformers'' multiverse is, to put not too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no generation, era, franchise, fiction, toyline or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a consistent, logical or easily-believable fashion (Save perhaps, [[Alternators]], but we all know where [[Kiss Players|having a scale consistent with a young girl leads]]). Most fans would agree that one needs to either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to actually explain away these problems and in the process undoubtedly fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, this does not mean that the chronic scale problems of ''Transformers'' do not merit description.

== Scale within toylines ==
As is generally well known, the early [[Generation 1 (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the entire pre-[[Transformers: The Movie|Movie]] lines, were created from repackaged and [[redeco]]ed toys from several different Japanese transforming toylines. The crucial point being that they came from ''different'' toylines. All characters (well, virtually all; see below) ''should'' be in correct scale to each other as they all are supposed to represent real-world altmodes that can pass for correctly-scaled vehicles etc. However, since the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not designed to be part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issue arise. While ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other, many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from the deformed [[penny-racer]] style proportions, even a comparatively small car such as a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen]] is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche]] that should be in the same scale. The disparity becomes all the more obvious with other [[minibot]]s such as [[Warpath]] and [[Seaspray]] whose [[altmode]]s would suggest that they should be many times their actual size.

[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|left|thumb|400px|That little guy --who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles-- is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yyyeah.]]

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker]]s, who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 63.8 ft (19.44 m) long. Clearly not in scale with the Autobot cars then...

Neither, for that matter, are the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''[[Diaclone]]'' line. Even ''more'' out-of-scale are the other ''Diaclone''-born combiner team the [[Trainbot]]s who, as the name implies, have train engine altmodes, considerably larger than cars and most construction equipment, yet their toys are among the smallest of the original ''Diaclone'' releases.

Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other often suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon]]s, for instance, are wildly out of scale to each other--[[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should be the largest by far, and [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] should be significantly smaller than the others. Among the aforementioned Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], like most dumptrucks in ''Transformers'', is actually one of those gigantic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg "earth-mover" mining trucks], which would make him significantly bigger than his teammates.

Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or very similar) altforms but whose toys are very different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into and F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. In reality they should be an identical size (in fact, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], transforming into a Concorde passenger jet should in fact be one of the largest G1 Transformers with an Earth altmode). The same can be said for [[Breakdown]], who, having a Lamborghini Countach altmode, should be in scale with [[Sunstreaker]]. This also goes for the other [[Stunticon]]s and all the Special Teams/[[Scramble City]]-type combiners with Earth-based altmodes, whose toys are all out of scale to earlier waves. By the same token, Warpath should be roughly the same size as [[Blitzwing]], who should ''himself'' be much larger when compared to Autobot cars like [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] ''et al''.

Speaking of Blitzwing, [[Triple Changer|Triple-Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a roughly 60-foot tanker truck into a 200-foot plus jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier'', presumably sized to carry quite a few Earth jets. More recent series, such as [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'', suggest that this is possible due to a variety of sliding panels, essentially making the transformations akin to incredibly elaborate origami. You heard right; origami Transformers. Yup.

Also, from an in-universe logic perspective, the characters with role-play altmodes such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Armada Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human(well, kid)-scale. Although [[size changing]] is obviously not possible for real toys (or at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think...), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes, e.g. [[Blaster]].

Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Movie]] G1 characters (and, for that matter, most post-G1 ''lines'') are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into "futuristic" or "Cybertonian" vehicles for which there are no real-world specifications, or indeed don't transform into vehicles at all. Therefore the scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] are fairly arbitrary and can at best be estimated by their relative size to more scale-friendly characters within the same fictions, although most animation is highly inconsistent in this regard (see below). Nevertheless, if one presumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended to house human passengers, comparisons of toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggest a scale disparity similar to other combiners.

There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness; the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every item is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car model, and thus remain in near-perfect scale with each other.

One last interesting case, related to the aforementioned Triple Changer difficulty, is when the toy is not in scale ''with itself''. For example, 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are proportionally too small for a Freightliner truck, while similarly his rear section onto which a trailer would be hitched is much too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give to his robot mode better robot proportions.

== Scale within fictions ==
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|thumb|Cliffjumper is one ****ing tiny car. Or Hound is a ****ing huge Jeep.]]

Scale issues abound within fictions, especially the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]]. A lot can be attributed to animation errors, or even "lazy animation". For example, in the episode "Make Tracks", [[Hoist]], who is depicted as one of the larger Autobots in robot mode, is shown riding inside [[Huffer]], a Minibot whose truck mode is usually depicted as being smaller than Optimus Prime's. So either Huffer is extremely large in that scene, or Hoist is the size of a human.

[[Size changing]] is rarely depicted on screen outside of characters such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]], but is rather implied (or, one could argue in many cases, inferred) in the following method: a character such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] transforms in-frame from robot to shuttle with no visible expansion of size relative to his surroundings. Cut. In the following shot his fellow Decepticons are shown running into frame, suddenly tiny in stature so that they can board the shuttle. Although Astrotrain has not been shown to actually grow (in the way Megatron is usually seen to perceptibly shrink in-shot), one infers that it is more likely that Astrotrain has expanded rather than all his confederates have individually shrunk. The same goes for [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and other "transport" characters.

[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|thumb|right|150px|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]] Some scale problems appear to be arbitrary, for example Optimus Prime (and, indeed, most Transformers in general) is routinely shown as being throughly gargantuan, equal to several stories in hight and capable of cradling humans in the palm of one hand. In reality, Prime would probably be about 25-30 feet tall, at best. Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown as being only a few feet taller than an average human, where in reality he would be around 10-15 feet tall. And those pesky [[Seeker]]s remain a walking scale problem; in reality they would be amongst the largest Transformers of all and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries, whereas the animation generally depicts character such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as being approximately the same height.

In most cases, the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] adopts approximations of the toy scale (with all its inherent problems) when depicting the characters in robot modes; Prime, Megatron and Soundwave are generally animated at the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars slightly shorter (although not ''as'' much shorter and unevenly so as the actual toys are), and [[Minibot]]s are given a smaller stature again. However, these depictions were ''far'' from consistent.

Some fans interpret these discrepancies to also be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters used mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop just a few feet for no apparent reason (other than to make the animation more plausible), the technology would seem pointlessly mundane. Furthermore there is no strong evidence in the series to indicate that size changing truly is so widespread as opposed to the animation having a particular style to it that favors emphasizing the hugeness of the Cybertronians.

[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. OBVIOUSLY.]]It is worth noting that the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] has taken great pains to avoid size-changing and out-of-scale issues among characters with Earth-based alternate modes. This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle ([[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is a long-nosed truck cab in order to offer more mass to make a taller robot mode out of) or the design of their robot modes. For example, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade-style legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a huge, hulking, towering robot mode.

All that said, size-changing technology clearly exists in ''some'' form in the movie continuity, as [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] somehow shrinks the [[All Spark]] down to a manageable size and mass. Thus far, there's no evidence this trick can be applied to anything except the All Spark.

=== Combiner scale ===
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|thumb|200px|...since when is a sedan 9 stories tall?]][[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown being as tall as large buildings, sometimes even the size of small skyscrapers. When one thinks that their individual limbs are composed of mere cars and construction vehicles, this becomes patently absurd. Logically, this can only be accounted for by serious [[size changing|size-change-o-rama]] and yet, again, no clear depiction of this process actually taking place is ever shown in the case of combiners.

[[Superion (G1)|Superion]], however, actually ''would'' be fairly massive, if one considers the much larger real-world size of his component parts.
{{-}}

== Show scale vs. toy scale ==

Some characters have great discrepancies between their cartoon scale and their toy scale. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassettes|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot]]s, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized (which is odd, considering that Soundwave is capable of expanding to massive size).

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a recolour of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]

[[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. (Although, the Japanese [[Galaxy Force]] release, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] to indicate the "correct" scale.) Within the animation, though, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when directly interacting with their larger partners, retain their size in relation to the toy... meaning some temporarily-gigantic Mini-Cons!

{{-}}

== Pretender scale ==

The G1 concept of [[Pretender|Pretenders]] had some interesting scale issues. In the [[Generation 1 (Marvel Comics)|original comic]] the pretenders appeared fairly literally as their toy counterparts; normal-sized robots inside humanoid shells. The logical result of this was that the [[Autobot]] Pretenders were depicted as giant-sized humans. Which ain't much of a disguise. By comparison, the [[Decepticon]]s merely look like garden-variety giant [[Saban]] monsters. In one issue of the comic Cloudburst transformed into jet mode, and his shell, as well as Landmine, who was inside his shell, boarded him. It was difficult to tell if Cloudburst was supposed to have grown in size, or if his shell and Landmine had shrunk to fit inside.

In the U.S. toy commercials Classic Pretenders Grimlock, Bumblebee and Jazz were depicted as small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand, so it is assumed they were human sized.

Although the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|original American cartoon]] did not feature any [[Pretender|Pretenders]], the Japanese-only continuity did, in their series ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]''. Here the Pretenders were not shells so much as ill-defined wholistic transformations which involved [[size changing]], allowing the large Autobots to achieve human size and convincingly pass themselves off as such. The Decepticons, by comparison chose to retain their gigantic proportions when in Pretender-mode.

Although never depicted in any of their actual fiction, [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' profile book included a description of their continuity's take on the Pretender concept. Something of a fusion of the above two, it described a physical shell that utilizes [[size changing|shrinking]] technology to achieve the ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Masterforce]]''-like capacity to pass the wearer off as a real human (or other bipedal lifeform of choice). Intriguingly, the profile also obliquely implies that such Pretender technology would/could later lead to the development of the synthetic faux-organic beast-mode tech of the [[Beast Era]].

== Mini-Con scale ==
The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are small robots who stand approximately the same height as a human. However, they almost all transform into vehicles (of either Earth or Cybertronian design) which are clearly modeled to include cockpits etc. for carrying passengers, and yet they are obviously too small to accommodate humans (the only exceptions being [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]], [[Sureshock]] and [[High Wire]], who become small one-man vehicles... well, ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Grindor doesn't). Who then these smaller-than-human passengers could possibly be is something of a mystery, setting aside the posibility that the mini-cons simply scan "normal" vehicle modes and resize them to fit their smaller bodies.

In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] retain their slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough to contain a human passenger.

== Micromaster scale ==
By the same token as Mini-Cons, [[Micromaster]]s are depicted as being roughly human-sized, and yet virtually all turn into real (albeit generic) earth vehicles that are patently incapable of fitting human passangers inside them.

The Marvel comic series featured some of them size-changing to vehicles that definitely ''were'' to human scale (as humans got in them), but this wasn't applied consistently (it also brings up the question of how much energy the downsizing really saves if they have to change their mass every time they transform).

The more recent [[Dreamwave]] miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' hinted at some kind of explanation, indicating that the Micromasters were Transformers scaled down to fit a smaller race of humans, but that is pretty much bollocks, as it still doesn't explain the scale problems within the line itself, that appear because all Micromasters are of a more or less same height in robot-mode, but transform into all manner of vehicles. For example a "downsized" human (as indicated by Dreamwave) that would be small enough to fit into [[Bombshock]]s altmode (a tank) would still be significantly too big to fit into [[Groundshaker]]s altmode (a fighter jet), whereas he would be way to small to man [[Countdown]]s altmode (a mooncar).

Furthermore, some Micromaster bases transformed into vehicle altmodes much larger than their operators, creating a further scale headache. However, there is no indication in any fiction that the Micromasters were, unlike the rest of G1, even ''supposed'' to have any accurate scale, even compared to each other. What, therefore, was the point of their "realistic" altmodes (other than to sell cute mini-toys) is anyone's guess.

== Citybots ==
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Okay, if you were ever ''this'' big in the cartoon, THEN we might be able to call you a city.]]

The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] each have altmodes which are described as a "city" (with Fort Max being supposedly the biggest of the 4). However, the scale at which they could plausibly house enough humans, ''let alone'' Transformers to be in any way reasonably defined as a "city" would suggest a robot-mode scale that would make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. No fiction to date, not even the very large depictions in the Japanese ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'' cartoon, even ''begins'' to approximate the size that a true "citybot" would logically become. In reality, the grossly-undersized depiction of [[Unicron]] (see below) would probably be closer to the scale of an actual transformed city. Which is ironic, as in Season 3 of the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] Unicron requires citybot eyes to replace his own shattered ones. That's right, citybot eyes fit a ''planet''bot. Explain that one...

Rare examples which even suggest such a realistic city scale include occasional Japanese promotional art (e.g. see right).

Furthermore, there is virtually no way to reconcile the "city" altmodes of the actual toys with any believable use of the term. Using windows as even a vague scale, they would hardly qualify as a city ''block''. The cartoon episode ''[[Thief in the Night]]'' makes some headway in explaining this via an establishing shot that shows Metroplex to be only a small smaller sub-section of the "actual" Autobot City, although this was not repeated. It seems that in Transformer terms, "city" is better read as "large building".

Although little fiction to date has significantly featured the Headmaster leaders fulfilling their "city" roles, they have in the Japanese-exclusive cartoons been employed in their tertiary modes as massive starships capable of transporting and housing many normal-sized transformers. Conversely, the Marvel [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] depicted Fort Max and Scorpy as merely "large-standard" size characters, of an equal height to Powermaster Optimus Prime and, in some UK issues, even the same as Rodimus Prime (to be fair, Powermaster Prime was often drawn "undersized" in the comics). Parts of ''[[Time Wars]]'' were notable in this department for featuring characters as diverse as [[Goldbug]], Fortress Maximus and [[Blaster]] as all being the ''exact'' same height.

== Planets ==
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|thumb|Those are some mondo gigantically big buildings...and a mondo gigantically big gash.]]

Scale when it comes to planets is almost so fraught it's actively painful. The logic problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet-sized altmode, and that Cybertron is in turn supposed to be in scale with him. Although different fictions have compared both [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]/[[Primus]] and Unicron to drastically different Sol-system planets, the fact remains that they are supposed to be ''planets'', and yet across most fictions they are shown in such insane scale-relation to characters that it would suggest they are barely the size of a very, very small moon (or a space station).

To start with, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself was depicted throughout G1 as having buildings visible from space. Although this was clearly intended to make it immediately obvious that the planet was entirely technological in nature, it actually makes no sense whatsoever, as such structures would have to be the size of small continents to actually be visible from such a distance. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be Transformers-scale skyscrapers (or even 2000 A.D. style mega-bocks), Cybertron would therefore be barely a fraction the size of Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like orbit-views of Cybertron in the ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' cartoon may be less distinctive or recognizably "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.

[[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is ''tiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyy!!!'']]

Unicron, however, is a much more extreme problem. If one presumes that no obvious [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, why would he want to become ''smaller''?), he would be so massive that any shot that features even a ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be of such a scale that no normal Transformer, however massive, would even be visible in the same frame. His depiction in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal-sized Cybertronian characters is blatantly absurd (regardless of how totally phat it looks). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye or ''especially'' picking up Galvatron between his thumb and forefinger before swallowing him (or, similarly in the comic, impaling [[Brainstorm (G1)|Brainstorm]] on his fingernail before crunching him between his teeth) bend any concept of plausible scale beyond breaking point. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron the size of Great Britain.

There is no possible explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada]]'' was (very debatably) a slight improvement, at least in as much as the concept of physical interaction (or much bodily movement for that matter) with such tiny beings was not even attempted, preferring instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing [[Sideways|another body]] in their own scale. Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck region are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

== ''Beast Era'' scale ==
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I'm tellin' ya, ''all'' da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
In the ''[[Beast Era]]'' scale is not such a large issue, although it certainly does crop up in less obvious (depending on your point of view) ways.

=== Real world scale ===
Although the Beast Warriors all seem to exist quite happily in their own relative scale, their scale in relation to the real-world animals they have adopted as [[altmode]]s is more problematic. While the "giant insect" characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously not in real world scale, when considered carefully virtually none of the characters actually are. The only characters who have been clearly depicted interacting with real members of their adopted species are [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]], who (to take the former example) is seen attempting to interact with other cheetahs in ''[[Beast Wars, Part 1]]'', who react in fright. Cheetor was shown here to be in the same scale as real cheetahs, which effectively makes him the measuring stick for all other characters. Obviously [[Rattrap]] is therefore a monstrously huge rat, about the size of a large dog, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is probably a roughly normal-sized gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is therefore a positively dwarfish specimen of a ''Tyrannosaurus rex,'' possibly closer to a [[Wikipedia: Nanotyrannus|Nanotyrannus]].

The ''[[Beast Wars]]'' writers once noted that first-season Rattrap was five feet (1.5 metres) tall, and that the other characters can be scaled around that. This would make Rattrap one of the few Transformers who are ''shorter'' than the average adult human in robot mode.

In their few interactions with (adult) protohumans, the Cybertronian characters seem between twice and three times the average height of protohumans. Considering human ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this scale issue is not as extreme as it may appear, but the point deserves addressing. Oddly enough, the smaller Beast Warriors still seem to interact with Autobot-scale computers and spacecraft quite happily, as seen in "Nemesis Part Two, where the remaining Maximals take control of an Autobot Shuttle and fly it home.

=== Scale relative to G1 ===
[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|thumb|left|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. I guess the Blastizone adds on a few tons to [[Beast Era]] characters]]

[[Size changing]] appears to be a thing of the past by the Beast Era, as the majority of the Cybertronian race seems to have considerably downgraded in size, apparently due to the [[Maximal Upgrade]] Program (although this is of course a backwards rationalization, since the show's basic premise requires the characters to transform into (vaguely) normal-sized animals, compared to the G1 characters transforming into large vehicles etc.). When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are very small compared to the dormant G1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. They are roughly the size humans should be (but usually weren't) depicted in relation to these characters.

On the other hand ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted G1 and BW characters like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Primal]] as being exactly the same size. Yup. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]],
{{-}}

=== Toy scale vs. cartoon scale ===
[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Pick the Ultra-class figure.]]

The first season's cast of ''[[Beast Wars |Beast Wars]]'' characters were not designed in the same relative scale to each other as depicted in the toyline, although from Season 2 onwards the scales (and general appearance) of the cartoon became much more consistent with the newer toys (however previously featured chracters, such as Waspinator, remained the same throughout).

For example, of the Season 1 Maximal crew, [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], Cheetor, [[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] and Rhinox are all from the same deluxe [[size class]], while [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and Rattrap are considerably smaller basics. Optimus Primal, an ultra, stands at virtually twice the size of the deluxes. In the show, Dinobot is the tallest, followed by Rhinox and a slightly shorter Optimus Primal, shorter again is Tigatron, while shorter still is Cheetor (despite being an identical mold) and Airazor, while Rattrap is marginally the shortest, but by no means to such a degree as his toy would suggest.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was far worse in terms of scale discrepancies with its cartoon, with the tallest character [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] becoming the shortest ([[micro-continuity|show-featured]]) Maximal toy, and similarly the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] was enlarged to a massive ultra-class. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy in the line (well, ''sorta'' in the line...) "Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]]" was rendered as an enormous supreme figure, completely incompatible with the other toys.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

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[[Category: Things that don't exist]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scale

2007-10-02T04:46:35Z

220.239.53.20: /* Toy scale vs. cartoon scale */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And the truck's ''how'' big...?]]
'''Scale''' in the ''Transformers'' multiverse is, to put not too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no generation, era, franchise, fiction, toyline or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a consistent, logical or easily-believable fashion (Save perhaps, [[Alternators]], but we all know where [[Kiss Players|having a scale consistent with a young girl leads]]). Most fans would agree that one needs to either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to actually explain away these problems and in the process undoubtedly fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, this does not mean that the chronic scale problems of ''Transformers'' do not merit description.

== Scale within toylines ==
As is generally well known, the early [[Generation 1 (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the entire pre-[[Transformers: The Movie|Movie]] lines, were created from repackaged and [[redeco]]ed toys from several different Japanese transforming toylines. The crucial point being that they came from ''different'' toylines. All characters (well, virtually all; see below) ''should'' be in correct scale to each other as they all are supposed to represent real-world altmodes that can pass for correctly-scaled vehicles etc. However, since the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not designed to be part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issue arise. While ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other, many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from the deformed [[penny-racer]] style proportions, even a comparatively small car such as a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen]] is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche]] that should be in the same scale. The disparity becomes all the more obvious with other [[minibot]]s such as [[Warpath]] and [[Seaspray]] whose [[altmode]]s would suggest that they should be many times their actual size.

[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|left|thumb|400px|That little guy --who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles-- is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yyyeah.]]

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker]]s, who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 63.8 ft (19.44 m) long. Clearly not in scale with the Autobot cars then...

Neither, for that matter, are the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''[[Diaclone]]'' line. Even ''more'' out-of-scale are the other ''Diaclone''-born combiner team the [[Trainbot]]s who, as the name implies, have train engine altmodes, considerably larger than cars and most construction equipment, yet their toys are among the smallest of the original ''Diaclone'' releases.

Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other often suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon]]s, for instance, are wildly out of scale to each other--[[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should be the largest by far, and [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] should be significantly smaller than the others. Among the aforementioned Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], like most dumptrucks in ''Transformers'', is actually one of those gigantic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg "earth-mover" mining trucks], which would make him significantly bigger than his teammates.

Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or very similar) altforms but whose toys are very different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into and F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. In reality they should be an identical size (in fact, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], transforming into a Concorde passenger jet should in fact be one of the largest G1 Transformers with an Earth altmode). The same can be said for [[Breakdown]], who, having a Lamborghini Countach altmode, should be in scale with [[Sunstreaker]]. This also goes for the other [[Stunticon]]s and all the Special Teams/[[Scramble City]]-type combiners with Earth-based altmodes, whose toys are all out of scale to earlier waves. By the same token, Warpath should be roughly the same size as [[Blitzwing]], who should ''himself'' be much larger when compared to Autobot cars like [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] ''et al''.

Speaking of Blitzwing, [[Triple Changer|Triple-Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a roughly 60-foot tanker truck into a 200-foot plus jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier'', presumably sized to carry quite a few Earth jets. More recent series, such as [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'', suggest that this is possible due to a variety of sliding panels, essentially making the transformations akin to incredibly elaborate origami. You heard right; origami Transformers. Yup.

Also, from an in-universe logic perspective, the characters with role-play altmodes such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Armada Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human(well, kid)-scale. Although [[size changing]] is obviously not possible for real toys (or at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think...), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes, e.g. [[Blaster]].

Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Movie]] G1 characters (and, for that matter, most post-G1 ''lines'') are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into "futuristic" or "Cybertonian" vehicles for which there are no real-world specifications, or indeed don't transform into vehicles at all. Therefore the scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] are fairly arbitrary and can at best be estimated by their relative size to more scale-friendly characters within the same fictions, although most animation is highly inconsistent in this regard (see below). Nevertheless, if one presumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended to house human passengers, comparisons of toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggest a scale disparity similar to other combiners.

There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness; the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every item is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car model, and thus remain in near-perfect scale with each other.

One last interesting case, related to the aforementioned Triple Changer difficulty, is when the toy is not in scale ''with itself''. For example, 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are proportionally too small for a Freightliner truck, while similarly his rear section onto which a trailer would be hitched is much too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give to his robot mode better robot proportions.

== Scale within fictions ==
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|thumb|Cliffjumper is one ****ing tiny car. Or Hound is a ****ing huge Jeep.]]

Scale issues abound within fictions, especially the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]]. A lot can be attributed to animation errors, or even "lazy animation". For example, in the episode "Make Tracks", [[Hoist]], who is depicted as one of the larger Autobots in robot mode, is shown riding inside [[Huffer]], a Minibot whose truck mode is usually depicted as being smaller than Optimus Prime's. So either Huffer is extremely large in that scene, or Hoist is the size of a human.

[[Size changing]] is rarely depicted on screen outside of characters such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]], but is rather implied (or, one could argue in many cases, inferred) in the following method: a character such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] transforms in-frame from robot to shuttle with no visible expansion of size relative to his surroundings. Cut. In the following shot his fellow Decepticons are shown running into frame, suddenly tiny in stature so that they can board the shuttle. Although Astrotrain has not been shown to actually grow (in the way Megatron is usually seen to perceptibly shrink in-shot), one infers that it is more likely that Astrotrain has expanded rather than all his confederates have individually shrunk. The same goes for [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and other "transport" characters.

[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|thumb|right|150px|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]] Some scale problems appear to be arbitrary, for example Optimus Prime (and, indeed, most Transformers in general) is routinely shown as being throughly gargantuan, equal to several stories in hight and capable of cradling humans in the palm of one hand. In reality, Prime would probably be about 25-30 feet tall, at best. Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown as being only a few feet taller than an average human, where in reality he would be around 10-15 feet tall. And those pesky [[Seeker]]s remain a walking scale problem; in reality they would be amongst the largest Transformers of all and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries, whereas the animation generally depicts character such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as being approximately the same height.

In most cases, the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] adopts approximations of the toy scale (with all its inherent problems) when depicting the characters in robot modes; Prime, Megatron and Soundwave are generally animated at the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars slightly shorter (although not ''as'' much shorter and unevenly so as the actual toys are), and [[Minibot]]s are given a smaller stature again. However, these depictions were ''far'' from consistent.

Some fans interpret these discrepancies to also be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters used mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop just a few feet for no apparent reason (other than to make the animation more plausible), the technology would seem pointlessly mundane. Furthermore there is no strong evidence in the series to indicate that size changing truly is so widespread as opposed to the animation having a particular style to it that favors emphasizing the hugeness of the Cybertronians.

[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. OBVIOUSLY.]]It is worth noting that the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] has taken great pains to avoid size-changing and out-of-scale issues among characters with Earth-based alternate modes. This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle ([[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is a long-nosed truck cab in order to offer more mass to make a taller robot mode out of) or the design of their robot modes. For example, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade-style legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a huge, hulking, towering robot mode.

All that said, size-changing technology clearly exists in ''some'' form in the movie continuity, as [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] somehow shrinks the [[All Spark]] down to a manageable size and mass. Thus far, there's no evidence this trick can be applied to anything except the All Spark.

=== Combiner scale ===
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|thumb|200px|...since when is a sedan 9 stories tall?]][[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown being as tall as large buildings, sometimes even the size of small skyscrapers. When one thinks that their individual limbs are composed of mere cars and construction vehicles, this becomes patently absurd. Logically, this can only be accounted for by serious [[size changing|size-change-o-rama]] and yet, again, no clear depiction of this process actually taking place is ever shown in the case of combiners.

[[Superion (G1)|Superion]], however, actually ''would'' be fairly massive, if one considers the much larger real-world size of his component parts.
{{-}}

== Show scale vs. toy scale ==

Some characters have great discrepancies between their cartoon scale and their toy scale. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassettes|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot]]s, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized (which is odd, considering that Soundwave is capable of expanding to massive size).

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a recolour of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]

[[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. (Although, the Japanese [[Galaxy Force]] release, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] to indicate the "correct" scale.) Within the animation, though, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when directly interacting with their larger partners, retain their size in relation to the toy... meaning some temporarily-gigantic Mini-Cons!

{{-}}

== Pretender scale ==

The G1 concept of [[Pretender|Pretenders]] had some interesting scale issues. In the [[Generation 1 (Marvel Comics)|original comic]] the pretenders appeared fairly literally as their toy counterparts; normal-sized robots inside humanoid shells. The logical result of this was that the [[Autobot]] Pretenders were depicted as giant-sized humans. Which ain't much of a disguise. By comparison, the [[Decepticon]]s merely look like garden-variety giant [[Saban]] monsters. In one issue of the comic Cloudburst transformed into jet mode, and his shell, as well as Landmine, who was inside his shell, boarded him. It was difficult to tell if Cloudburst was supposed to have grown in size, or if his shell and Landmine had shrunk to fit inside.

In the U.S. toy commercials Classic Pretenders Grimlock, Bumblebee and Jazz were depicted as small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand, so it is assumed they were human sized.

Although the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|original American cartoon]] did not feature any [[Pretender|Pretenders]], the Japanese-only continuity did, in their series ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]''. Here the Pretenders were not shells so much as ill-defined wholistic transformations which involved [[size changing]], allowing the large Autobots to achieve human size and convincingly pass themselves off as such. The Decepticons, by comparison chose to retain their gigantic proportions when in Pretender-mode.

Although never depicted in any of their actual fiction, [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' profile book included a description of their continuity's take on the Pretender concept. Something of a fusion of the above two, it described a physical shell that utilizes [[size changing|shrinking]] technology to achieve the ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Masterforce]]''-like capacity to pass the wearer off as a real human (or other bipedal lifeform of choice). Intriguingly, the profile also obliquely implies that such Pretender technology would/could later lead to the development of the synthetic faux-organic beast-mode tech of the [[Beast Era]].

== Mini-Con scale ==
The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are small robots who stand approximately the same height as a human. However, they almost all transform into vehicles (of either Earth or Cybertronian design) which are clearly modeled to include cockpits etc. for carrying passengers, and yet they are obviously too small to accommodate humans (the only exceptions being [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]], [[Sureshock]] and [[High Wire]], who become small one-man vehicles... well, ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Grindor doesn't). Who then these smaller-than-human passengers could possibly be is something of a mystery, setting aside the posibility that the mini-cons simply scan "normal" vehicle modes and resize them to fit their smaller bodies.

In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] retain their slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough to contain a human passenger.

== Micromaster scale ==
By the same token as Mini-Cons, [[Micromaster]]s are depicted as being roughly human-sized, and yet virtually all turn into real (albeit generic) earth vehicles that are patently incapable of fitting human passangers inside them.

The Marvel comic series featured some of them size-changing to vehicles that definitely ''were'' to human scale (as humans got in them), but this wasn't applied consistently (it also brings up the question of how much energy the downsizing really saves if they have to change their mass every time they transform).

The more recent [[Dreamwave]] miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' hinted at some kind of explanation, indicating that the Micromasters were Transformers scaled down to fit a smaller race of humans, but that is pretty much bollocks, as it still doesn't explain the scale problems within the line itself, that appear because all Micromasters are of a more or less same height in robot-mode, but transform into all manner of vehicles. For example a "downsized" human (as indicated by Dreamwave) that would be small enough to fit into [[Bombshock]]s altmode (a tank) would still be significantly too big to fit into [[Groundshaker]]s altmode (a fighter jet), whereas he would be way to small to man [[Countdown]]s altmode (a mooncar).

Furthermore, some Micromaster bases transformed into vehicle altmodes much larger than their operators, creating a further scale headache. However, there is no indication in any fiction that the Micromasters were, unlike the rest of G1, even ''supposed'' to have any accurate scale, even compared to each other. What, therefore, was the point of their "realistic" altmodes (other than to sell cute mini-toys) is anyone's guess.

== Citybots ==
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Okay, if you were ever ''this'' big in the cartoon, THEN we might be able to call you a city.]]

The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] each have altmodes which are described as a "city" (with Fort Max being supposedly the biggest of the 4). However, the scale at which they could plausibly house enough humans, ''let alone'' Transformers to be in any way reasonably defined as a "city" would suggest a robot-mode scale that would make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. No fiction to date, not even the very large depictions in the Japanese ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'' cartoon, even ''begins'' to approximate the size that a true "citybot" would logically become. In reality, the grossly-undersized depiction of [[Unicron]] (see below) would probably be closer to the scale of an actual transformed city. Which is ironic, as in Season 3 of the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] Unicron requires citybot eyes to replace his own shattered ones. That's right, citybot eyes fit a ''planet''bot. Explain that one...

Rare examples which even suggest such a realistic city scale include occasional Japanese promotional art (e.g. see right).

Furthermore, there is virtually no way to reconcile the "city" altmodes of the actual toys with any believable use of the term. Using windows as even a vague scale, they would hardly qualify as a city ''block''. The cartoon episode ''[[Thief in the Night]]'' makes some headway in explaining this via an establishing shot that shows Metroplex to be only a small smaller sub-section of the "actual" Autobot City, although this was not repeated. It seems that in Transformer terms, "city" is better read as "large building".

Although little fiction to date has significantly featured the Headmaster leaders fulfilling their "city" roles, they have in the Japanese-exclusive cartoons been employed in their tertiary modes as massive starships capable of transporting and housing many normal-sized transformers. Conversely, the Marvel [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] depicted Fort Max and Scorpy as merely "large-standard" size characters, of an equal height to Powermaster Optimus Prime and, in some UK issues, even the same as Rodimus Prime (to be fair, Powermaster Prime was often drawn "undersized" in the comics). Parts of ''[[Time Wars]]'' were notable in this department for featuring characters as diverse as [[Goldbug]], Fortress Maximus and [[Blaster]] as all being the ''exact'' same height.

== Planets ==
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|thumb|Those are some mondo gigantically big buildings...and a mondo gigantically big gash.]]

Scale when it comes to planets is almost so fraught it's actively painful. The logic problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet-sized altmode, and that Cybertron is in turn supposed to be in scale with him. Although different fictions have compared both [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]/[[Primus]] and Unicron to drastically different Sol-system planets, the fact remains that they are supposed to be ''planets'', and yet across most fictions they are shown in such insane scale-relation to characters that it would suggest they are barely the size of a very, very small moon (or a space station).

To start with, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself was depicted throughout G1 as having buildings visible from space. Although this was clearly intended to make it immediately obvious that the planet was entirely technological in nature, it actually makes no sense whatsoever, as such structures would have to be the size of small continents to actually be visible from such a distance. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be Transformers-scale skyscrapers (or even 2000 A.D. style mega-bocks), Cybertron would therefore be barely a fraction the size of Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like orbit-views of Cybertron in the ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' cartoon may be less distinctive or recognizably "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.

[[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is ''tiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyy!!!'']]

Unicron, however, is a much more extreme problem. If one presumes that no obvious [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, why would he want to become ''smaller''?), he would be so massive that any shot that features even a ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be of such a scale that no normal Transformer, however massive, would even be visible in the same frame. His depiction in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal-sized Cybertronian characters is blatantly absurd (regardless of how totally phat it looks). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye or ''especially'' picking up Galvatron between his thumb and forefinger before swallowing him (or, similarly in the comic, impaling [[Brainstorm (G1)|Brainstorm]] on his fingernail before crunching him between his teeth) bend any concept of plausible scale beyond breaking point. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron the size of Great Britain.

There is no possible explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada]]'' was (very debatably) a slight improvement, at least in as much as the concept of physical interaction (or much bodily movement for that matter) with such tiny beings was not even attempted, preferring instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing [[Sideways|another body]] in their own scale. Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck region are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

== ''Beast Era'' scale ==
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I'm tellin' ya, ''all'' da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
In the ''[[Beast Era]]'' scale is not such a large issue, although it certainly does crop up in less obvious (depending on your point of view) ways.

=== Real world scale ===
Although the Beast Warriors all seem to exist quite happily in their own relative scale, their scale in relation to the real-world animals they have adopted as [[altmode]]s is more problematic. While the "giant insect" characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously not in real world scale, when considered carefully virtually none of the characters actually are. The only characters who have been clearly depicted interacting with real members of their adopted species are [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]], who (to take the former example) is seen attempting to interact with other cheetahs in ''[[Beast Wars, Part 1]]'', who react in fright. Cheetor was shown here to be in the same scale as real cheetahs, which effectively makes him the measuring stick for all other characters. [[Rattrap]] is therefore obviously a monstrously huge rat, about the size of a large dog, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is probably a roughly normal-sized gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is therefore a positively dwarfish specimen of a ''Tyrannosaurus rex,'' possibly closer to a [[Wikipedia: Nanotyrannus|Nanotyrannus]].

The ''[[Beast Wars]]'' writers once noted that first-season Rattrap was five feet (1.5 metres) tall, and that the other characters can be scaled around that. This would make Rattrap one of the few Transformers who are ''shorter'' than the average adult human in robot mode.

In their few interactions with (adult) protohumans, the Cybertronian characters seem between twice and three times the average height of protohumans. Considering human ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this scale issue is not as extreme as it may appear, but the point deserves addressing. Oddly enough, the smaller Beast Warriors still seem to interact with Autobot-scale computers and spacecraft quite happily, as seen in "Nemesis Part Two, where the remaining Maximals take control of an Autobot Shuttle and fly it home.

=== Scale relative to G1 ===
[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|thumb|left|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. I guess the Blastizone adds on a few tons to [[Beast Era]] characters]]

[[Size changing]] appears to be a thing of the past by the Beast Era, as the majority of the Cybertronian race seems to have considerably downgraded in size, apparently due to the [[Maximal Upgrade]] Program (although this is of course a backwards rationalization, since the show's basic premise requires the characters to transform into (vaguely) normal-sized animals, compared to the G1 characters transforming into large vehicles etc.). When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are very small compared to the dormant G1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. They are roughly the size humans should be (but usually weren't) depicted in relation to these characters.

On the other hand ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted G1 and BW characters like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Primal]] as being exactly the same size. Yup. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]],
{{-}}

=== Toy scale vs. cartoon scale ===
[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Pick the Ultra-class figure.]]

The first season's cast of ''[[Beast Wars |Beast Wars]]'' characters were not designed in the same relative scale to each other as depicted in the toyline, although from Season 2 onwards the scales (and general appearance) of the cartoon became much more consistent with the newer toys (however previously featured chracters, such as Waspinator, remained the same throughout).

For example, of the Season 1 Maximal crew, [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], Cheetor, [[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] and Rhinox are all from the same deluxe [[size class]], while [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and Rattrap are considerably smaller basics. Optimus Primal, an ultra, stands at virtually twice the size of the deluxes. In the show, Dinobot is the tallest, followed by Rhinox and a slightly shorter Optimus Primal, shorter again is Tigatron, while shorter still is Cheetor (despite being an identical mold) and Airazor, while Rattrap is marginally the shortest, but by no means to such a degree as his toy would suggest.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was far worse in terms of scale discrepancies with its cartoon, with the tallest character [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] becoming the shortest ([[micro-continuity|show-featured]]) Maximal toy, and similarly the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] was enlarged to a massive ultra-class. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy in the line (well, ''sorta'' in the line...) "Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]]" was rendered as an enormous supreme figure, completely incompatible with the other toys.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:Toys]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category: Things that don't exist]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Primus

2007-10-02T04:35:40Z

220.239.53.20: /* Generation 1 */

[[Image:PrimusG1.jpg|300px|thumb|That's MISTER God to you.]]

'''Primus''' is [[Unicron]]'s sibling, and the creator god of the [[Transformer]]s. His body is the planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The [[spark]] of each [[Transformer]] is a small piece of Primus's essence, and together they form his lifeforce, the [[Allspark]].

==In the beginning==

[[Image:Primus_original.jpg|thumb|left|Hold the sword and say, "I am the Protector of the Universe!"]]

Before the dawn of time, Order and Chaos existed within an extradimensional entity known as the [[One]]. He created twin astral beings to reign over the cosmos: Primus and Unicron. Their nature differed, as Primus's lifeforce (aka the Allspark) was a ''multiversal singularity''; existing across all Transformers realities at once ''(See Animated and IDW continuity sections below for possible exceptions to this.)'', whereas Unicron existed in only one dimension at a time but could travel relatively freely between them. Primus was the Lord of Light and Order, and Unicron, the Lord of Darkness and Chaos. Unicron sought to devour everything that exists and become one with [[the Void]] at the end of all things.

[[Image:Primusoriginal.jpg|thumb|right|"No, [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] is ''[[RIBFIR|blue]]''!"]]

In combat, Primus was no match for Unicron. But Primus did manage to trap both his and Unicron's essences inside metallic planetoids. Over time, they learned to shape these prisons. Primus became the mechanical planet of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Knowing that his ancient enemy still lived, Primus created the [[13 original Transformers]] from the material of the newly created planet. To the very first of these 13, named [[Prima]], Primus bestowed the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], containing his essence. These Transformers would, in time, grow strong in number, knowledge, and power, and be able to defeat Unicron.

==War of the balance==

The first conflict between Primus and Unicron occurred shortly after the creation of the first 13 Transformers. One of the original 13, who would ever afterwards be known as the [[Fallen]], betrayed Primus and became an acolyte of Unicron. Many of the first 13 were destroyed in this great battle before Unicron and The Fallen were sucked into a [[black hole]] and sealed away in a extra-dimensional limbo.

The two brothers shared a mental link. So long as Primus hid himself in slumber, so did Unicron also sleep. Their war ended, for a time, in stalemate.

[[Image:Primalscream.jpg|right|thumb|KHHHHHAAAAANNNNN!]]

Eventually, in one version of Generation 1 continuity [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Jazz]], and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] found themselves transported to the center of [[Cybertron_(planet)|Cybertron]]. In a battle with [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]]'s [[Pretender]]s, a laser blast ricocheted off Grimlock and struck the essence of the sleeping Primus, causing a multiverse-shaking Primal Scream that woke Unicron and alerted him to Primus's location.

The battle between Primus and Unicron began anew. Though Unicron would sometimes be defeated, this has always been temporary, and there is a whole multiverse of realities to consume. When Unicron is destroyed in one reality, he respawns in another, ready to eat again. Primus will always be waiting, hoping to incapacitate Unicron and preserve existence.

It has been suggested that both of them are, in fact, necessary for the multiverse to exist in stability.

==The evolution of the Primus/Unicron myth ==

The Primus/Unicron backstory has evolved and been rewritten a good number of times since it first originated in the Marvel comics. The version above is the current iteration, which has slowly solidified across a wide swath of media (beginning around the time of [[Armada]]). Before the Primus/Unicron mythos reached its present form it went through several distinct versions in the Marvel G1 comics and elsewhere.

===Unicron's story===

The first time we ever heard the Primus/Unicron backstory is in the UK comic continuity, from Unicron himself. After his destruction during the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', his head floated through space and crashed on the planet [[Junkion (planet)|Junk]]. There, he enslaved the inhabitants to recreate his old body from their world. When the bount- . . . um . . . "freelance peacekeeping agent" [[Death's Head]] challenged him on the astral plane, Unicron shared the story of his origin thusly:

At the dawn of the universe, when Unicron was a primal force of evil, the only one who could stand against him and his [[Dark Armies]] was Primus, Lord of the [[Light Gods]]. (Note the plural.) Primus and his fellow Light Gods stood against Unicron and his Dark Armies. Events then played out roughly as described above. ''(The role of the other Light Gods and Unicron's armies would diminish with each retelling of the story, until the current version where they are alone and have a unique origin. Only one of the other Light Gods was ever named: the [[Chronarchitect]].)''

===The Keeper's story===

The second time the story was told was in the US book by the [[Keeper]], an ancient mechanoid who guarded Primus's head at the center of Cybertron. This telling mentions that their battle was towards the end of the era of Gods and that Primus and Unicron were the last of their respective pantheons. But Primus had to defeat Unicron before he could take his place with the other gods in the "[[Omniversal Matrix]]".

===Primus's story===

The third time the story was told was by Primus when he gathered all his children together to prepare for Unicron's coming. Here we learn for the first time that Unicron predated the current universe. Unicron had destroyed the previous universe and then slept peacefully, alone with the void. But he had not been thorough enough and some bits of the "old realms" survived. They reacted and caused The Big Bang. The sentient core of this new universe recognized the threat of Unicron and so created Primus to be his counterpart and guardian of the new creation.

===DK's story===
[[Image:WarWithinPrimus.jpg|left|thumb|200px|I feel prickly...]]

The first modern retelling of their origin in the DK [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] (which tended to focus on the then current Dreamwave continuity) added a new twist with the "One" as a self-contained being of balanced order and chaos. He was curious and so created Unicron to explore the new-born universe for him. Then he sub-divided Unicron and created Primus out of him. As Primus achieved consciousness he realized Unicron had become corrupted and was now a force for chaos. Primus thus took on the role of champion of order and creation to balance things and protect existence from Unicron.

{{-}}

==Marvel Comics continuity==

[[Image:Emirate_prmus.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Form blazing god!]]

Unicron is first seen in the comic adaptation of ''The Transformers: The Movie''. The Marvel US comic basically left the adaptation alone as something that might or might not happen but was in the distant future (at the time) and so basically out of continuity. The Marvel UK version of the comic however seized on the Movie era and its characters as something it could focus on without worry of contradicting events in the US stories it reprinted.

Target 2006 was the first of these UK exclusive stories. It is not until the later "Legacy of Unicron" storyline however that we first hear of and see Primus.

''(Of particular note is that the story clearly intends for Primus to have died after his battle with Unicron in the US book. Unfortunately the current retcon disallows that, as Primus must live in all realities or the multiverse collapses. One must assume that Prime was wrong about Primus's status and the god was only "mostly dead", perhaps gone offline as in the Cybertron cartoon until the Last Autobot somehow revived him. Though that is only speculation, there is some evidence in the continuity itself to support Primus not having died after all. The Matrix is the life-force of Primus and it is shown to still be existing and functioning fine in the G2 Marvel Comics series that follows his supposed death.)''

== Animated continuity ==

Primus did not exist in the Generation 1 cartoon. There, Cybertron's oldest revealed status was as a factory world of the [[Quintesson]]s who invented the Transformers, and Unicron was a product of the strange sad little alien [[Primacron]].

This causes some trouble with the later retcon that Primus is a "multiversal singularity" and part of all Transformers universes, though [[Wreckers #3]] did attempt to retcon the Primus mythology into the Quintesson-creation backstory of the original cartoon.

==Beast Era==

===''Beast Wars''/''Beast Machines''===

Primus's name was often invoked in prayer or in righteous anger by the Beast Warriors.

The [[Covenant of Primus]], a prophetical set of data tracks, were on board both the [[Ark]] and the [[Nemesis]] when they crashed 4 million years ago on prehistoric Earth. [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] himself took his name from these tracks (as did, presumably, the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]), and the scriptures foretold the events which completed the [[Beast Wars]].

After the Beast Wars, Megatron intended to incorporate Primus's essence, the [[Allspark (dimension)|Allspark]], into his own being and become godlike by stealing every [[Spark]] of every Transformer on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Ultimately, this was merely one step of the [[Oracle]]'s plan to reformat Cybertron into a [[technorganic]] paradise. After Megatron and Optimus Primal were plunged into the planet's core, the planet was reborn and the abducted Sparks were returned to new technorganic bodies.

====''Tales of the Beast Wars'' comics====

Back at the dawn of the Universe, before he put into effect his grand plan, Primus did a test run to make sure it would work. He transformed a small moon into a planet and there created twelve transforming, robotic beings based on the Zodiac of future Earth. (He was a forward thinking God and had the [[Chronarchitect]] on his side.) The [[Covenant]] of Primus as they were called, were given the duty of watching over their younger cousins the Transformers, ensuring that Primus's plan followed its intended path, and preparing for the [[Omega Point]], a prophesied final battle with Unicron in which they were to take part.

===''Universe''===

[[Image:TFUPrimus.jpg|left|thumbnail|[[Alpha Trion|Alpha]], Rita's escaped! Recruit a team of teenagers with attitude!]]
When [[Unicron]] began gathering Transformers from the multiverse, forcing them to fight, and harvesting the [[Spark]]s of the losers, this presented a huge threat to Primus and the [[Allspark]]. Transformers' Sparks are pieces of Primus's essence, so each devoured soul weakened him.

Primus and [[Alpha Trion]] called back from the Allspark the now-legendary Maximal ship commander and [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]'s savior, [[Optimus Primal (BW)|Optimus Primal]], to rescue the possessed, battling captives from the Pit of Unicron -- and to lead a team of multiversal warriors to put a stop to his soul-stealing scheme before it could cause the Allspark to collapse.

Primus allowed Optimus Primal to choose any Transformer who ever existed -- living or dead -- for his army. This required considerable amounts of Primus's power, so Primal was told to choose sparingly. Primal chose his departed former troops [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and [[Depth Charge]].

{{-}}

==Unicron Trilogy==

===Energon===
'''Voice actor:''' ''[[Ron Halder]] (US), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japan)''
[[Image:Primus_eng.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Primus mistakes Kicker for a Japanese schoolgirl.]]

The creation God of the Transformers made his character debut in the Unicron Trilogy during the ''Energon'' series. Although Primus was very vague and kept mysterious in the Energon series, his purpose would be further explored in the ''Cybertron'' series.

Primus is the living core of Cybertron and the creator of all Transformers, as well as the originator of the precious and ancient fuel, Energon. After the first era, stories of Unicron, Primus, and [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] were regarded as myth and legend, until after the Unicron Battles of 2010. With Cybertron left in a disastrous state, it would require large amounts of Energon to repair it fully. Involved in this task was the Earth Federated Government, operating secretly with the Cybertronians. A child of one of the Earth scientists, [[Kicker Jones]], would be the one to awaken the ancient God, Primus, within Cybertron's core, while fleeing Optimus Prime in fear.

Primus's first act was to empower this child with the gift of finding energon throughout the universe. Primus would also create the sparks of combination which would allow his Autobots to double in strength by having one Autobot link to another, diverting his energy supply into his partner's weapons and processing systems through a system of Powerlinking top to bottom, much like Optimus and Jetfire's combination from Transformers Armada.

Primus would go on to advise Optimus Prime on his actions in order to prepare for the future, including the Terrorcon invasion, the return of Megatron, and the next battle with Unicron. Although vague at times, Primus often offered enough information in order for his children to avoid destruction in battle. Primus was often very weak due to the damage done to the planet's surface, and spent most of his time in a mode of stasis to preserve his energy and keep Cybertron's energy grid online.

Primus would continue to advise his creations until Unicron, being controlled by Megatron, would once again menace Cybertron and the other planets in the Planet Q system. Most of the Autobot army were critically wounded, prompting the sleeping Primus to awaken and fuse their armor. Unicron was eventually defeated, but Megatron survived. After Megatron used the hidden super energon pool to upgrade himself into Galvatron, all seemed nearly lost until Galvatron was once again possessed by Unicron. In the final battle, Primus awoke to carry the super energon through space and collide it with Unicron's spark, creating a newborn sun, ending the Energon story. Unfortunately, this would not last, as the sun would soon collapse, leading to the black hole that threatens the universe in the Transformers Cybertron series.

It is unknown if the act of creating the sun in the ''Energon'' series completely exhausted Primus, as the fiction connecting the stories remains vague. The club comic seems to portray the idea that Primus continued to exist, but was offlined by Nemesis Prime's attack. Although this is a plausible idea, the structure of Primus and Cybertron, having an Alpha Trion and Vector Sigma is based on Generation One, and was not present in the previous ''Energon'' animated series.

:''('''Note:''' Early ''Super-Link'' [http://web.archive.org/web/20041207164548/www.tfpulp.com/archive/energonprod/energonprod.html pre-production notes] go into the specifics of Primus's creation. Although it is not particularly in-line with the Western multiversal origin of the character involving the [[One]], they present Primus as an entity consisting purely of energon. Energon, the notes state, is the product of the "genetic material" of the sun interacting with planetary bodies - this, then, appears to be a very literal interpretation of Primus's role as a "light god," presenting him as an actual product of the light of the sun.)''

===Cybertron===
'''Voice actor:''' ''[[Michael Donovan]] (US), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japan)''

[[Image:Map-Primus.jpg|left|thumbnail|300px|If Unicron is Galactus, does that mean that Primus is Ego, The Living Planet?]]

Primus's plot to bury [[Unicron]]'s essence in the center of a newborn star failed. The star collapsed into a black hole which threatened not only [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the universe, but the multiverse as well. Only four [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, hidden on planets throughout the galaxy, combined with the [[Omega Lock]], could awaken Primus and allow him to destroy the black hole.

After Megatron is seemingly defeated, the Autobots bring the Omega Lock along with the Cyber Planet Keys from [[Velocitron]] the [[Jungle Planet]] and [[Earth]] to the restoration chamber. Upon inserting the three keys into the Omega Lock, the room shakes and the Omega Lock is pushed from its recepticle into the ceiling, causing a chain reaction that makes it look as though the planet itself is falling apart. As the Autobots evacuated, they began to realize what was occurring - Cybertron was transforming.

[[Image:Primus Cybertrony.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Oh so prickly...]]

As the [[Scale|massive continental plates]] of Cybertron split and shifted, exposing an arsenal of weapons, as well as recognizably humanoid robotic appendages, [[Vector Prime]] intoned an almost-religious verse: ''"He who charted the universe when it was young. He who battled Unicron at the beginning of Time. He who created the Matrix of Leadership. He who brought life to Cybertron, Velocitron and all the other Transformer worlds in the cosmos. Yes, there can be no other. This, is Primus."'' {{Storylink|Cybertron (Cybertron episode)|Cybertron}}

Primus communicates directly through the [[Mini-Con]] [[Jolt (Cybertron)|Jolt]], telling the Autobots that the black hole is no ordinary singularity. Primus gives the assembled an image of two forces, one good, one evil, that have been in existence for all time, but the evil force has vanished. Primus says that the destruction of Unicron left the balance of good and evil severely ''un''balanced, whch distorted space and time, and formed the black hole. Vector Prime explains to the kids that Unicron and Primus are balancing forces, and one cannot exist without the other, which [[Coby Hansen|Coby]] illustrates to [[Bud Hansen|Bud]] with a coin.

Primus says that only he can close the black hole, but his [[spark]] must be fully restored first, by obtaining all four Cyber Planet Keys and putting them in the Omega Lock.... but the Autobots only have three Keys so far.

[[Image:Starscream_Vs_Primus.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Mother...]]

After Primus reveals the location of the fourth Planet Key, an Allspark-fueled [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] attacks Primus, intent on retrieving the Omega Lock. Primus manages to defend himself and easily defeat Starscream. {{Storylink|Balance}}

====Fun Publications ''Cybertron'' comic====

During the events of Transformers: Cybertron, the black hole created by Unicron's passing posed unique problems. Primus and Unicron -- representing Order and Chaos, respectively -- together forged a delicate balance in the multiverse. With one or the other missing, the balance would be upset, spiraling all that exists into an unknown doom.

In addition, the black hole was positioned very close to Cybertron itself, making Primus, despite Unicron's apparent demise, the most vulnerable he had ever been. Cybertron was the linchpin, the astral center of the entire multiverse, itself another singularity. Unicron's heralds [[Ramjet (Universe)|Ramjet]] and [[Nemesis Prime (Universe)|Nemesis Prime]] arrived on Cybertron to unleash the [[Dead Matrix]] on Primus's essence. For the first time ever, Unicron, who is normally limited to threatening Primus one reality at a time, would be able to weaken Primus across all timelines -- and the black hole's proximity would end their cosmic feud forever.

{{-}}

== IDW Continuity ==
[[Simon Furman]] has also stated that he may specifically exclude Primus and Unicron from the IDW comic universe as well, which might be seen as retconning out the previous retcon and rendering Primus as being once again a feature of only "some" Transformer continuities. Without a fairly direct in-story description of Cybertron's origins, however, it is impossible to say whether Primus is in fact absent in this universe, or merely not up to anything. This last one is possible, seeing as how Cybertron itself is a barren wasteland, with the stories taking place on Earth and other planets.

In the [[Stormbringer (comics)|Stormbringer]] miniseries, [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and [[Scoop]] make mention of [[Primacron]] in an almost religious manner ("Primacron help us" and "Primacron only knows"). [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] claims that there is a spirit of Cybertron which needs to be appeased to restore Cybertron, which one could easily interpret as Primus. However, Bludgeon's idea of appeasing Cybertron was to allow [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] to destroy a bunch of planets in a mass sacrifice, so his sources (and his sanity) are a matter of debate.

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Primus''' (2004)
:The first Primus figure was a "Lucky Draw" toy in Japan, a vac-metallised gold chrome recolored [[Rodimus Prime]] that was given away as a contest prize from a collector book, ''[[Transformers: Generations]]''. It is unknown how many of these lucky draw figures were manufactured, if indeed there was even more than one.

===Cybertron===
*'''Cybertron Primus''' (Supreme, 2006)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-00'''

[[Image:Cybertron_Primus_toy.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.]]

:Cybertron Primus is the first toy representation of Transformers' Creator as their home planet of Cybertron. In planet mode, he is considerably more detailed than [[Unicron]] from the ''Armada'' line, with visible cities, including [[Iacon]] based upon its appearance in the DK Books ''Transformers Ultimate Guide'', and Kaon as seen in [[The War Within]]. On the 'bottom' of the planet mode there are four hard rubber legs, molded to be shaped like towers, allowing Primus to be displayed in planet mode, yet not require a flat base as Unicron did.

:Primus's transformation is unusual, in many ways similar to a [[Powermaster]], in that he requires the owner to insert his accompanying Omega Lock accessory into several special ports around the planet, then manipulate them to unlock his parts and transform him. When the Omega Lock is initially inserted and pushed, a transforming sound is heard. When it is inserted into his chest and pushed up to reveal his head, his eyes glow red and a laser-type sound effect is heard.

:In robot mode, Primus resembles both the [[Beast Wars Neo]] Unicron prototype as well as [[Don Figueroa]]'s Primus concept. He is bristling with weaponry, including two shoulder-mounted cannons that can fire missiles, two forearm blasters that raise and extend when a Cyber Planet Key is inserted, and several banks of gattling cannons, lasers and missile launchers in his shins and legs revealed by the Omega Lock.

:Primus also has a third mode, an intergalacticic world-ship. It is basically done by half-way transforming the figure, leaving the head down and the legs backward.

:Primus comes with two accessories, the aformentioned battery-operated Omega Lock that lights up red when inserted into any of the four Omega Lock ports, and a special silver Cybertron-Planet Cyber Planet Key. Any four Cyber Planet Keys can be inserted into the four key slots at the base of the Omega Lock, though doing this does not activate any feature. There are also nine Mini-Con dead [[powerlinx]] ports on the Primus figure, including two on the claws on his legs. Attaching Mini-Cons to these also do not activate any features.

:In North America, limited early-run versions of Cybertron Primus came packaged with a "battle damaged" Unicron head based upon his Armada appearance. It is still available on the Hasbro website as of March 29, 2007.

:A later version, exclusive to Wal-Mart as a [[Black Friday]] 2006 special, included four Mini-Cons; [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]], [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], and [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]].

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* The original form of Primus in Marvel Comic continuity is similar to [[Hot Rod]] or Rodimus Prime.

==See also==
*[[Allspark]]
*[[Vector Sigma]]

[[Category:Cybertron characters]]
[[Category:Energon characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Gods]]
[[Category:Universe characters]]
[[Category:Wal-Mart exclusives]]
[[Category:Primus| ]]
[[Category:Planets]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Primus

2007-10-02T04:34:23Z

220.239.53.20: /* Generation 1 */

[[Image:PrimusG1.jpg|300px|thumb|That's MISTER God to you.]]

'''Primus''' is [[Unicron]]'s sibling, and the creator god of the [[Transformer]]s. His body is the planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The [[spark]] of each [[Transformer]] is a small piece of Primus's essence, and together they form his lifeforce, the [[Allspark]].

==In the beginning==

[[Image:Primus_original.jpg|thumb|left|Hold the sword and say, "I am the Protector of the Universe!"]]

Before the dawn of time, Order and Chaos existed within an extradimensional entity known as the [[One]]. He created twin astral beings to reign over the cosmos: Primus and Unicron. Their nature differed, as Primus's lifeforce (aka the Allspark) was a ''multiversal singularity''; existing across all Transformers realities at once ''(See Animated and IDW continuity sections below for possible exceptions to this.)'', whereas Unicron existed in only one dimension at a time but could travel relatively freely between them. Primus was the Lord of Light and Order, and Unicron, the Lord of Darkness and Chaos. Unicron sought to devour everything that exists and become one with [[the Void]] at the end of all things.

[[Image:Primusoriginal.jpg|thumb|right|"No, [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] is ''[[RIBFIR|blue]]''!"]]

In combat, Primus was no match for Unicron. But Primus did manage to trap both his and Unicron's essences inside metallic planetoids. Over time, they learned to shape these prisons. Primus became the mechanical planet of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Knowing that his ancient enemy still lived, Primus created the [[13 original Transformers]] from the material of the newly created planet. To the very first of these 13, named [[Prima]], Primus bestowed the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], containing his essence. These Transformers would, in time, grow strong in number, knowledge, and power, and be able to defeat Unicron.

==War of the balance==

The first conflict between Primus and Unicron occurred shortly after the creation of the first 13 Transformers. One of the original 13, who would ever afterwards be known as the [[Fallen]], betrayed Primus and became an acolyte of Unicron. Many of the first 13 were destroyed in this great battle before Unicron and The Fallen were sucked into a [[black hole]] and sealed away in a extra-dimensional limbo.

The two brothers shared a mental link. So long as Primus hid himself in slumber, so did Unicron also sleep. Their war ended, for a time, in stalemate.

[[Image:Primalscream.jpg|right|thumb|KHHHHHAAAAANNNNN!]]

Eventually, in one version of Generation 1 continuity [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Jazz]], and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] found themselves transported to the center of [[Cybertron_(planet)|Cybertron]]. In a battle with [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]]'s [[Pretender]]s, a laser blast ricocheted off Grimlock and struck the essence of the sleeping Primus, causing a multiverse-shaking Primal Scream that woke Unicron and alerted him to Primus's location.

The battle between Primus and Unicron began anew. Though Unicron would sometimes be defeated, this has always been temporary, and there is a whole multiverse of realities to consume. When Unicron is destroyed in one reality, he respawns in another, ready to eat again. Primus will always be waiting, hoping to incapacitate Unicron and preserve existence.

It has been suggested that both of them are, in fact, necessary for the multiverse to exist in stability.

==The evolution of the Primus/Unicron myth ==

The Primus/Unicron backstory has evolved and been rewritten a good number of times since it first originated in the Marvel comics. The version above is the current iteration, which has slowly solidified across a wide swath of media (beginning around the time of [[Armada]]). Before the Primus/Unicron mythos reached its present form it went through several distinct versions in the Marvel G1 comics and elsewhere.

===Unicron's story===

The first time we ever heard the Primus/Unicron backstory is in the UK comic continuity, from Unicron himself. After his destruction during the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', his head floated through space and crashed on the planet [[Junkion (planet)|Junk]]. There, he enslaved the inhabitants to recreate his old body from their world. When the bount- . . . um . . . "freelance peacekeeping agent" [[Death's Head]] challenged him on the astral plane, Unicron shared the story of his origin thusly:

At the dawn of the universe, when Unicron was a primal force of evil, the only one who could stand against him and his [[Dark Armies]] was Primus, Lord of the [[Light Gods]]. (Note the plural.) Primus and his fellow Light Gods stood against Unicron and his Dark Armies. Events then played out roughly as described above. ''(The role of the other Light Gods and Unicron's armies would diminish with each retelling of the story, until the current version where they are alone and have a unique origin. Only one of the other Light Gods was ever named: the [[Chronarchitect]].)''

===The Keeper's story===

The second time the story was told was in the US book by the [[Keeper]], an ancient mechanoid who guarded Primus's head at the center of Cybertron. This telling mentions that their battle was towards the end of the era of Gods and that Primus and Unicron were the last of their respective pantheons. But Primus had to defeat Unicron before he could take his place with the other gods in the "[[Omniversal Matrix]]".

===Primus's story===

The third time the story was told was by Primus when he gathered all his children together to prepare for Unicron's coming. Here we learn for the first time that Unicron predated the current universe. Unicron had destroyed the previous universe and then slept peacefully, alone with the void. But he had not been thorough enough and some bits of the "old realms" survived. They reacted and caused The Big Bang. The sentient core of this new universe recognized the threat of Unicron and so created Primus to be his counterpart and guardian of the new creation.

===DK's story===
[[Image:WarWithinPrimus.jpg|left|thumb|200px|I feel prickly...]]

The first modern retelling of their origin in the DK [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] (which tended to focus on the then current Dreamwave continuity) added a new twist with the "One" as a self-contained being of balanced order and chaos. He was curious and so created Unicron to explore the new-born universe for him. Then he sub-divided Unicron and created Primus out of him. As Primus achieved consciousness he realized Unicron had become corrupted and was now a force for chaos. Primus thus took on the role of champion of order and creation to balance things and protect existence from Unicron.

{{-}}

==Marvel Comics continuity==

[[Image:Emirate_prmus.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Form blazing god!]]

Unicron is first seen in the comic adaptation of ''The Transformers: The Movie''. The Marvel US comic basically left the adaptation alone as something that might or might not happen but was in the distant future (at the time) and so basically out of continuity. The Marvel UK version of the comic however seized on the Movie era and its characters as something it could focus on without worry of contradicting events in the US stories it reprinted.

Target 2006 was the first of these UK exclusive stories. It is not until the later "Legacy of Unicron" storyline however that we first hear of and see Primus.

''(Of particular note is that the story clearly intends for Primus to have died after his battle with Unicron in the US book. Unfortunately the current retcon disallows that, as Primus must live in all realities or the multiverse collapses. One must assume that Prime was wrong about Primus's status and the god was only "mostly dead", perhaps gone offline as in the Cybertron cartoon until the Last Autobot somehow revived him. Though that is only speculation, there is some evidence in the continuity itself to support Primus not having died after all. The Matrix is the life-force of Primus and it is shown to still be existing and functioning fine in the G2 Marvel Comics series that follows his supposed death.)''

== Animated continuity ==

Primus did not exist in the Generation 1 cartoon. There, Cybertron's oldest revealed status was as a factory world of the [[Quintesson]]s who invented the Transformers, and Unicron was a product of the strange sad little alien [[Primacron]].

This causes some trouble with the later retcon that Primus is a "multiversal singularity" and part of all Transformers universes, though [[Wreckers #3]] did attempt to retcon the Primus mythology into the Quintesson-creation backstory of the original cartoon.

==Beast Era==

===''Beast Wars''/''Beast Machines''===

Primus's name was often invoked in prayer or in righteous anger by the Beast Warriors.

The [[Covenant of Primus]], a prophetical set of data tracks, were on board both the [[Ark]] and the [[Nemesis]] when they crashed 4 million years ago on prehistoric Earth. [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] himself took his name from these tracks (as did, presumably, the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]), and the scriptures foretold the events which completed the [[Beast Wars]].

After the Beast Wars, Megatron intended to incorporate Primus's essence, the [[Allspark (dimension)|Allspark]], into his own being and become godlike by stealing every [[Spark]] of every Transformer on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Ultimately, this was merely one step of the [[Oracle]]'s plan to reformat Cybertron into a [[technorganic]] paradise. After Megatron and Optimus Primal were plunged into the planet's core, the planet was reborn and the abducted Sparks were returned to new technorganic bodies.

====''Tales of the Beast Wars'' comics====

Back at the dawn of the Universe, before he put into effect his grand plan, Primus did a test run to make sure it would work. He transformed a small moon into a planet and there created twelve transforming, robotic beings based on the Zodiac of future Earth. (He was a forward thinking God and had the [[Chronarchitect]] on his side.) The [[Covenant]] of Primus as they were called, were given the duty of watching over their younger cousins the Transformers, ensuring that Primus's plan followed its intended path, and preparing for the [[Omega Point]], a prophesied final battle with Unicron in which they were to take part.

===''Universe''===

[[Image:TFUPrimus.jpg|left|thumbnail|[[Alpha Trion|Alpha]], Rita's escaped! Recruit a team of teenagers with attitude!]]
When [[Unicron]] began gathering Transformers from the multiverse, forcing them to fight, and harvesting the [[Spark]]s of the losers, this presented a huge threat to Primus and the [[Allspark]]. Transformers' Sparks are pieces of Primus's essence, so each devoured soul weakened him.

Primus and [[Alpha Trion]] called back from the Allspark the now-legendary Maximal ship commander and [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]'s savior, [[Optimus Primal (BW)|Optimus Primal]], to rescue the possessed, battling captives from the Pit of Unicron -- and to lead a team of multiversal warriors to put a stop to his soul-stealing scheme before it could cause the Allspark to collapse.

Primus allowed Optimus Primal to choose any Transformer who ever existed -- living or dead -- for his army. This required considerable amounts of Primus's power, so Primal was told to choose sparingly. Primal chose his departed former troops [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and [[Depth Charge]].

{{-}}

==Unicron Trilogy==

===Energon===
'''Voice actor:''' ''[[Ron Halder]] (US), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japan)''
[[Image:Primus_eng.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Primus mistakes Kicker for a Japanese schoolgirl.]]

The creation God of the Transformers made his character debut in the Unicron Trilogy during the ''Energon'' series. Although Primus was very vague and kept mysterious in the Energon series, his purpose would be further explored in the ''Cybertron'' series.

Primus is the living core of Cybertron and the creator of all Transformers, as well as the originator of the precious and ancient fuel, Energon. After the first era, stories of Unicron, Primus, and [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] were regarded as myth and legend, until after the Unicron Battles of 2010. With Cybertron left in a disastrous state, it would require large amounts of Energon to repair it fully. Involved in this task was the Earth Federated Government, operating secretly with the Cybertronians. A child of one of the Earth scientists, [[Kicker Jones]], would be the one to awaken the ancient God, Primus, within Cybertron's core, while fleeing Optimus Prime in fear.

Primus's first act was to empower this child with the gift of finding energon throughout the universe. Primus would also create the sparks of combination which would allow his Autobots to double in strength by having one Autobot link to another, diverting his energy supply into his partner's weapons and processing systems through a system of Powerlinking top to bottom, much like Optimus and Jetfire's combination from Transformers Armada.

Primus would go on to advise Optimus Prime on his actions in order to prepare for the future, including the Terrorcon invasion, the return of Megatron, and the next battle with Unicron. Although vague at times, Primus often offered enough information in order for his children to avoid destruction in battle. Primus was often very weak due to the damage done to the planet's surface, and spent most of his time in a mode of stasis to preserve his energy and keep Cybertron's energy grid online.

Primus would continue to advise his creations until Unicron, being controlled by Megatron, would once again menace Cybertron and the other planets in the Planet Q system. Most of the Autobot army were critically wounded, prompting the sleeping Primus to awaken and fuse their armor. Unicron was eventually defeated, but Megatron survived. After Megatron used the hidden super energon pool to upgrade himself into Galvatron, all seemed nearly lost until Galvatron was once again possessed by Unicron. In the final battle, Primus awoke to carry the super energon through space and collide it with Unicron's spark, creating a newborn sun, ending the Energon story. Unfortunately, this would not last, as the sun would soon collapse, leading to the black hole that threatens the universe in the Transformers Cybertron series.

It is unknown if the act of creating the sun in the ''Energon'' series completely exhausted Primus, as the fiction connecting the stories remains vague. The club comic seems to portray the idea that Primus continued to exist, but was offlined by Nemesis Prime's attack. Although this is a plausible idea, the structure of Primus and Cybertron, having an Alpha Trion and Vector Sigma is based on Generation One, and was not present in the previous ''Energon'' animated series.

:''('''Note:''' Early ''Super-Link'' [http://web.archive.org/web/20041207164548/www.tfpulp.com/archive/energonprod/energonprod.html pre-production notes] go into the specifics of Primus's creation. Although it is not particularly in-line with the Western multiversal origin of the character involving the [[One]], they present Primus as an entity consisting purely of energon. Energon, the notes state, is the product of the "genetic material" of the sun interacting with planetary bodies - this, then, appears to be a very literal interpretation of Primus's role as a "light god," presenting him as an actual product of the light of the sun.)''

===Cybertron===
'''Voice actor:''' ''[[Michael Donovan]] (US), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japan)''

[[Image:Map-Primus.jpg|left|thumbnail|300px|If Unicron is Galactus, does that mean that Primus is Ego, The Living Planet?]]

Primus's plot to bury [[Unicron]]'s essence in the center of a newborn star failed. The star collapsed into a black hole which threatened not only [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the universe, but the multiverse as well. Only four [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, hidden on planets throughout the galaxy, combined with the [[Omega Lock]], could awaken Primus and allow him to destroy the black hole.

After Megatron is seemingly defeated, the Autobots bring the Omega Lock along with the Cyber Planet Keys from [[Velocitron]] the [[Jungle Planet]] and [[Earth]] to the restoration chamber. Upon inserting the three keys into the Omega Lock, the room shakes and the Omega Lock is pushed from its recepticle into the ceiling, causing a chain reaction that makes it look as though the planet itself is falling apart. As the Autobots evacuated, they began to realize what was occurring - Cybertron was transforming.

[[Image:Primus Cybertrony.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Oh so prickly...]]

As the [[Scale|massive continental plates]] of Cybertron split and shifted, exposing an arsenal of weapons, as well as recognizably humanoid robotic appendages, [[Vector Prime]] intoned an almost-religious verse: ''"He who charted the universe when it was young. He who battled Unicron at the beginning of Time. He who created the Matrix of Leadership. He who brought life to Cybertron, Velocitron and all the other Transformer worlds in the cosmos. Yes, there can be no other. This, is Primus."'' {{Storylink|Cybertron (Cybertron episode)|Cybertron}}

Primus communicates directly through the [[Mini-Con]] [[Jolt (Cybertron)|Jolt]], telling the Autobots that the black hole is no ordinary singularity. Primus gives the assembled an image of two forces, one good, one evil, that have been in existence for all time, but the evil force has vanished. Primus says that the destruction of Unicron left the balance of good and evil severely ''un''balanced, whch distorted space and time, and formed the black hole. Vector Prime explains to the kids that Unicron and Primus are balancing forces, and one cannot exist without the other, which [[Coby Hansen|Coby]] illustrates to [[Bud Hansen|Bud]] with a coin.

Primus says that only he can close the black hole, but his [[spark]] must be fully restored first, by obtaining all four Cyber Planet Keys and putting them in the Omega Lock.... but the Autobots only have three Keys so far.

[[Image:Starscream_Vs_Primus.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Mother...]]

After Primus reveals the location of the fourth Planet Key, an Allspark-fueled [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] attacks Primus, intent on retrieving the Omega Lock. Primus manages to defend himself and easily defeat Starscream. {{Storylink|Balance}}

====Fun Publications ''Cybertron'' comic====

During the events of Transformers: Cybertron, the black hole created by Unicron's passing posed unique problems. Primus and Unicron -- representing Order and Chaos, respectively -- together forged a delicate balance in the multiverse. With one or the other missing, the balance would be upset, spiraling all that exists into an unknown doom.

In addition, the black hole was positioned very close to Cybertron itself, making Primus, despite Unicron's apparent demise, the most vulnerable he had ever been. Cybertron was the linchpin, the astral center of the entire multiverse, itself another singularity. Unicron's heralds [[Ramjet (Universe)|Ramjet]] and [[Nemesis Prime (Universe)|Nemesis Prime]] arrived on Cybertron to unleash the [[Dead Matrix]] on Primus's essence. For the first time ever, Unicron, who is normally limited to threatening Primus one reality at a time, would be able to weaken Primus across all timelines -- and the black hole's proximity would end their cosmic feud forever.

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== IDW Continuity ==
[[Simon Furman]] has also stated that he may specifically exclude Primus and Unicron from the IDW comic universe as well, which might be seen as retconning out the previous retcon and rendering Primus as being once again a feature of only "some" Transformer continuities. Without a fairly direct in-story description of Cybertron's origins, however, it is impossible to say whether Primus is in fact absent in this universe, or merely not up to anything. This last one is possible, seeing as how Cybertron itself is a barren wasteland, with the stories taking place on Earth and other planets.

In the [[Stormbringer (comics)|Stormbringer]] miniseries, [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and [[Scoop]] make mention of [[Primacron]] in an almost religious manner ("Primacron help us" and "Primacron only knows"). [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] claims that there is a spirit of Cybertron which needs to be appeased to restore Cybertron, which one could easily interpret as Primus. However, Bludgeon's idea of appeasing Cybertron was to allow [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] to destroy a bunch of planets in a mass sacrifice, so his sources (and his sanity) are a matter of debate.

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Primus''' (2004)
:The first Primus figure was a "Lucky Draw" toy in Japan, a recolored metallic [[Rodimus Prime]] that was given away as a contest prize from a collector book, ''[[Transformers: Generations]]''. It is unknown how many of these lucky draw figures were manufactured, if indeed there was even more than one.

===Cybertron===
*'''Cybertron Primus''' (Supreme, 2006)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-00'''

[[Image:Cybertron_Primus_toy.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.]]

:Cybertron Primus is the first toy representation of Transformers' Creator as their home planet of Cybertron. In planet mode, he is considerably more detailed than [[Unicron]] from the ''Armada'' line, with visible cities, including [[Iacon]] based upon its appearance in the DK Books ''Transformers Ultimate Guide'', and Kaon as seen in [[The War Within]]. On the 'bottom' of the planet mode there are four hard rubber legs, molded to be shaped like towers, allowing Primus to be displayed in planet mode, yet not require a flat base as Unicron did.

:Primus's transformation is unusual, in many ways similar to a [[Powermaster]], in that he requires the owner to insert his accompanying Omega Lock accessory into several special ports around the planet, then manipulate them to unlock his parts and transform him. When the Omega Lock is initially inserted and pushed, a transforming sound is heard. When it is inserted into his chest and pushed up to reveal his head, his eyes glow red and a laser-type sound effect is heard.

:In robot mode, Primus resembles both the [[Beast Wars Neo]] Unicron prototype as well as [[Don Figueroa]]'s Primus concept. He is bristling with weaponry, including two shoulder-mounted cannons that can fire missiles, two forearm blasters that raise and extend when a Cyber Planet Key is inserted, and several banks of gattling cannons, lasers and missile launchers in his shins and legs revealed by the Omega Lock.

:Primus also has a third mode, an intergalacticic world-ship. It is basically done by half-way transforming the figure, leaving the head down and the legs backward.

:Primus comes with two accessories, the aformentioned battery-operated Omega Lock that lights up red when inserted into any of the four Omega Lock ports, and a special silver Cybertron-Planet Cyber Planet Key. Any four Cyber Planet Keys can be inserted into the four key slots at the base of the Omega Lock, though doing this does not activate any feature. There are also nine Mini-Con dead [[powerlinx]] ports on the Primus figure, including two on the claws on his legs. Attaching Mini-Cons to these also do not activate any features.

:In North America, limited early-run versions of Cybertron Primus came packaged with a "battle damaged" Unicron head based upon his Armada appearance. It is still available on the Hasbro website as of March 29, 2007.

:A later version, exclusive to Wal-Mart as a [[Black Friday]] 2006 special, included four Mini-Cons; [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]], [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], and [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]].

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==Trivia==
* The original form of Primus in Marvel Comic continuity is similar to [[Hot Rod]] or Rodimus Prime.

==See also==
*[[Allspark]]
*[[Vector Sigma]]

[[Category:Cybertron characters]]
[[Category:Energon characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Gods]]
[[Category:Universe characters]]
[[Category:Wal-Mart exclusives]]
[[Category:Primus| ]]
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