MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2010-07-06T04:14:23Z

65.60.140.213: /* What's Canon For Each Continuity */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Home Video sections are lacking ==
I looked up the DVD and Home Video content on Wookiepedia, Memory Alpha, Lostpedia, and even the 24 Wiki and they all brought up pages with tons of info, all neatly organized and categorized. But for this Wiki, searches turn up little and the only way I could find home video content effectively is through the "Category:Home Video" page, and even then it was - sorry to say - A Mess! Why is a wiki as large as this one so inadequate in this regard? If this wiki doesn't have it right, then shouldn't it be fixed by modeling the home video sections after the wikis that have it done right? Most of the content is already here, it just needs to be better organized. {{unsigned|4.254.83.255}}
:Er, I don't know what you mean, exactly, considering that our home video sections look perfectly fine to me. See: [[Transformers_Animated_(cartoon)#Home video releases]], [[The Transformers (cartoon)#DVD releases]], [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]], [[Robots in Disguise (cartoon)#DVD releases]], etc. I don't know what more you could want; for any series you want to know DVD info about, the info is likely available on that series' page.
:Either that, or you're perhaps not realizing the difference in how the TF series work. Instead of something like Trek where the different series are all in a ''single'' universe and storyline, there's somewhere around 16 DVD-able Transformers things, all of which are in multiple ''different'' universes and storylines.
:As such, IMHO it makes far more sense for us to group our home video by those separate series, rather than all together. I think most TF fans are only going to be interested in what DVDs are available for their specific favorite series/universe, rather than wanting to see every single DVD at once for everything.
:Not that a comprehensive DVD list might not still be a useful project, mind you. Just saying that IMHO we're far from unorganized or a mess if we don't have one. We just have different organizing needs because of the unique way the TF series themselves are organized. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:38, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::Agreed on all counts. I'd need to know what the previous poster was actually looking for to understand what improvements they're wanting.
::It ''could'' be this is another symptom of us not having any sort of "Transformers primer", as we discussed ages ago. Maybe time to revisit that idea?
::(I went onto Wookiepedia looking for some ideas, but got distracted by the absurdly long and reaching list of "References to the original trilogy" on the ''Attack of the Clones'' page. If that list were here, I'd take a weedwhacker to it.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 09:21, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::I like the idea of a Transformers primer, explaining the odd franchise and reboot and "multiple characters with the same name" nature of the deal. Pages like [[continuity]], [[canon]], and [[continuity family]] cover some of the info that might go on such a thing, but they're still a bit too "techy" for the casual reader, I think. Something that covers similar info but in a more accessible way might be very useful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:13, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::::I'd be all for a ''Transformers 101'' type page. A simple concise "These are Transformers, they come from Cybertron, there are Autobots and Decepticons (generally) fighting a big war (generally) over control of resources. Usually there's an Optimus and a Megatron (or the nearest local equivalent), a kid-friendly character and a conniving evil second-in-command, but beyond that, it's a weird-ass multiverse. Why are all the different incarnations of TF so different, yet so similar? [[To sell toys|Duh.]] [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:I will say that I think we need to be better about making sure individual episode/comic pages include all the relevant home-video/trade-paperback compilations one can find said individual episodes on... and I am a firm believer that each home video/compilation needs its own page. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:49, 7 March 2010 (EST)

I should have known I was stirring up a hornet's nest when I posted that yesterday. This started with my searching for old VHS releases of transformers on Amazon.com. I then figured I'd check it out on this wiki, but amazingly searching for VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray turned up nothing. (I even considered that it was the browser I was using. It's not.) "Home video" turned up pages for the series and their home video sections, but not a comprehensive listing with links (to the home video sections). There are some great guides to home video for the live-action films, and the home video category lists companies, but I just found it a bit frustrating that it required so much digging to find what I was looking for. Other wiki's do have pages dedicated to just DVD (Though I have exaggerated their organization.), and in the case of Memory Alpha templates that direct one to the releases. Granted, nothing's perfect and those other wiki's maybe only succeed over this one in that I was able to find what I was looking for fast. But content that can't be found might as well not be there. Out of frustration I finally just thought "This is a mess!" and posted the above.

Go ahead and say everything's fine. The content ''is'' there all well done when you do find it, even if it was difficult to come by (Why, for instance, does the home video category not provide links to the home video sections for each series and movie? Would putting all those article in the home video category be inappropriate? Maybe, but without something like that, the category didn't help much for my search.), and maybe this is more a criticism of the failings of the search engine behind the box on the left of each page. But my difficulty in finding what I was looking for happened, and I suspect it goes on all the time with other casual searches: "Lemme see what DVD releases there are for transformers." [types DVD, hits 'enter'] "Nothing?! Oh well..."
:Ah, I see the problem. DVD, VHS, and Blu-ray are all three-letter terms (or made up of three-letter terms with dashes), and the wiki software always returns no results for search terms with three letters or less.
:The problem is that (most) every other wiki only has one universe to worry about, while we have multiple universes. So it makes perfect sense for someplace like Memory Alpha to have all of the videos together, because the series are all sequels to each other.
:Whereas for us, there's little reason to have, say, the Robots in Disguise videos and the Animated videos together, because they're two series that have nothing to do with each other. Instead, we have home video listings on the series pages, because it's far more likely someone's going to want to know if RID specifically has videos, or Animated specifically has videos, etc.
:As such, putting the entire cartoon series pages into the Home Video category when only a single section contains info related to that category is odd. ''However'', I do think maybe we could fake it using redirects. For instance, "Transformers Animated home video releases" that redirects to "Transformers Animated (cartoon)#Home video releases", etc. Then we'd put the redirect in the category.
:We could also make it so that terms like "VHS", "DVD", and "Blu-ray" all redirect to "Category:Home Video" to get around the three-letter search terms problems. (Er, can you ''have'' redirects point to categories?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::Maybe part of the problem is that [[:Category:Home video]] mostly lists companies that put out TF on DVD. All well and good if you know Kid Rhino and Shout! Factory put out G1, but if you don't, how do you know where to go for G1 DVD info. We have [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]] and [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)/DVD]]. Perhaps we just need that for each series, and then maybe a central page to tie them together? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:18, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::I was just going to add an addendum that if we go the route of creating categorized redirects to all of our series-specific sections, we could create a couple subcategories to separate the companies from the actual release areas. We also should probably stick the DVD covers subcategories in their own umbrella "Covers" subcategory.
:::I'm not sure we really need a central page, so much as making the individual sections all available and easier to get to in the Home Video category, and making terms like "DVD" redirect to that category.--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)
::::I don't see the harm in having something at each of those namespaces, but given my druthers I'd make each of them in the format of a disambiguation page.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:25, 7 March 2010 (EST)
:::::If I'm following you correctly, you're suggesting to make pages for DVD, VHS, etc. and have them be disambiguation pages? That's not a bad idea at all. I think we should definitely have an actual main page for Generation 1 video releases and perhaps the same for Beast Wars. Adding links to the nav templates for video releases (whatever is chosen as the 'central page' for that franchise) would probably be a good idea too. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)

I've been planning to make a central "hub" page since I started doing the home video stuff, and to have releases listed on episode pages (like I did at the bottom of [[The Transformers: The Movie promo]]), but I was waiting until I'd finished all the company pages so I could add everything together in one go rather than a load of little edits. I guess I took too long doing that, though, and the punters are getting restless. We've got enough info to make it worth starting now anyway, so I'll bump it up on my to-do list. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:38, 12 March 2010 (EST)
:Well, I was thinking something like the [[series]] page with links to everything, but I can't make that work without it becoming overly long and complicated. Instead I've gone with a simple disambig thing as suggested above, as well as the redirects and cat sorting that Jeysie mentioned. Thoughts so far? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 08:10, 13 March 2010 (EST)

== Toyline list formatting ==
I was looking through various toyline pages to get an idea of how to format the list of toys for the [[Beast Wars Metals (toyline)]] page that I created and the one I'd like to create for the [[Beast Wars (Japanese franchise)|Japanese Beast Wars]] toyline, and noticed an inconsistency in the way the toylists are done. Specifically, with whether alt-modes should be listed by the name of the toy. Beast Wars, Neo, Beast Machines, Armada and Energon include alt-modes, while G1, G2, Beast Wars II, RID, Cybertron, and ROTF do not. Movie 2007 has it for some but not all. Is having alt-modes in the lists something that we desire? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)

==Caption location==
I find the way captions are currently placed at the rightt ugly, in particular if the caption is very short. It only looks decent when it is a piece of a conversation. So, is it possible to alter the coding so that caption gets placed in the center? I think that will look a lot better. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:Uhhh...I'm not sure what you mean. Captions are placed in the LEFT of the boxes. Images are often at the right of the page, but not always. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:54, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
::Okay, so I have a problem telling left and right apart. ^^* Left then - the captions look ugly placed all too the ''left''. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:09, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:::Isn't left alignment of text associated with images standard in all forms of publication? That's the way I've always seen such things in books and magazines.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:02, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
: Centering would look terrible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:23, 16 March 2010 (EDT)

== Disambig3 of ordinary name ==

I think it is fine to put [[Template:Disambig3|Disambig3]] of ordinary names such as "[[David (disambiguation)|David]]", "[[Jim (disambiguation)|Jim]]", or "[[Bill (disambiguation)|Bill]]" on certain pages, since these names are names instead of generic words like "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Star|Star]]",[[Special:PrefixIndex/Thunder|Thunder]]", "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Sky|Sky]]", or "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Jet|Jet]]".

See, we won't call [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] or [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast]] just "Thunder" (unless here comes an official nickname some day). But it is natural/normal to call David Kaye "David" (for example). Or, it's normal to call [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] just "[[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]]".

So, in my opinion, it is okay to leave put disambig3 of ordinary names on those pages. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 23:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)
:Is there some kind of consensus for this, or is it going to lead to a huge edit war where different users like FortMAx and Interrobang (to pick a couple random editors) clog up recent changes alternately addign and removing disambigs without marking them as minor for filterng purposes? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 01:55, 17 March 2010 (EDT)

::Current consensus is that we put disambiguation on for first and/or last name. We haven't had any discussion about removing the disambig3s. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:08, 17 March 2010 (EDT)

== IP Range Blocking ==

As of this writing, within the past several hours, we've had a dozen edits from what appears to be one anonymous editor, sent from several IPs in the 64.112.16 range and one in 64.112.17 range. All have been attempts to add Japanese names to the ''TF Animated'' cast prematurely. I've blocked one of the addresses (infinitely, more for abusing multiple accounts than anything else), so any subsequent ones should also be blocked, but will this block other IPs he's already used? And if not, could someone point me to the process for handling this? Or is this something a super-admin has to handle?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:21, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
:The IP addresses he's been editing from are AOL's proxy, which uses a random IP from their range for each access, so he's not changing IP addresses intentionally. Blocking all of the IP addresses he could potentially use would mean blocking AOL in its entirety. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:36, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::And that's bad ''how''? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:46, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::So do I change his block to temporary instead of permanent? I'm not sure if a brief spate of premature Japanese name inclusion merits an infinite block in and of itself. Or do we hope this teaches him a lesson and that he registers if he wants to keep contributing?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 23:16, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
:::Every time he load or edits a page, he does so from a different IP address, so the ban on just one of the IP addresses won't make a difference - he'll never see that he's been banned. With AOL, it's either a blanket ban on the IP range, or semi-protecting the articles being attacked. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:27, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
::::The problem with AOL is that they have effin' huge IP ranges, they don't send X-Forwarded-For headers by default, and approximately ten umptillion people use it, which means we'd be blocking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people.
::::Semi-protect the pages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:38, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::Ditto on semi-protect. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:32, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I looked up a Wikipedia talk page on how to deal with AOL vandals, and they came to the same conclusion - better to semi-protect the pages than block 5 million people. If the AOL person comes back and tries it again, we should semi-protect the pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:09, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Works for me. If I'm here the next time he tries something, I'll semi-protect as many ''Animated'' character pages as I can in one go.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:19, 24 March 2010 (EDT)

== Formatting Pet Peeves ==

So a thread on the Allspark made me want to bicker about a few annoying pet peeve things I see people doing here on the Wiki.

'''Double-spacing between sentences.'''

Folks... these are ''web pages''. Double spaces ''don't show up'' on the display unless you use the HTML code that forces one (and please, for the love of humanity, don't). Now, putting double spaces before inline templates like storylinks does make sense, because it lets you pick them apart from the actual text while editing, but double-spacing sentences just does nothing even from that standpoint. And over the number of pages we have, it can add up space-wise.

'''Putting line returns between list items.'''

When you put list items together like this:

<pre>*List item one
*List item two
*List item three</pre>

You get this in the code:

<pre><ul>
<li>List item one</li>
<li>List item two</li>
<li>List item three</li>
</ul></pre>

See? Nice correct ''single'' list. Now, what happens when you do this instead?

<pre>*List item one

*List item two

*List item three</pre>

Well, you get this:

<pre><ul>
<li>List item one</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>List item two</li>
</ul>
<ul>
<li>List item three</li>
</ul></pre>

Yes. Now instead of a list that should be a single being in, you know, ''one'' coded list, it's now in ''three'' coded lists. This is bad for a number of reasons.

If you want spacing between line items, put a blasted line of CSS in your personal CSS thingy that puts some there:

<pre>li {margin:.5em 0;}</pre>

In fact, even better, someone with admin access put that line in the wiki's main CSS like I've been trying to pester Derik to do for ages now. Boom, instant spacing without doing god-awful things to the HTML code.

'''The never-ending {{tl|-}} vs. {{tl|--}} debate.'''

Considering the whole reason the latter was created was to replace the former in those instances where the spacing was too large, having some folks constantly swapping the latter back to the former is annoying. And then there's the people who don't even bother to do the swap and just stack both together, which is just really stupid.

If what's making it not work is that it's:

<pre>{{--}}

Next Header</pre>

When it needs to be:

<pre>{{--}}
Next Header</pre>

Then, you know, fix the code.

And if the problem is that you're using an outdated browser, then either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us.

Anyhoo. There's probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but for now, this is your Code Wench complaining about these issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:22, 28 March 2010 (EDT)

:Good call on
<pre>
* list

*list</pre>
:that was something I was unaware of but will look out for in future. While we're talking formatting, though, is it possible to remove the <pre>{{--}}</pre> (or similar) from the note template? When notes escape images it tends to screw up the page a bit --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 16:43, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
::The problem is that if we don't, the note template is coded in such a way that it currently ends up overlapping part of the image frame and looking worse. Also:
::<pre>li + li {margin-top:.5em}</pre>
::Might be better for the list item spacing, as then you avoid affecting the spacing above and below the list, plus it will avoid messing up the articles where the list items have been spaced out, and they can be fixed at our leisure. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
:::That is indeed a better thought, although I don't recall off-hand if IE7 supports that type of selector or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:19, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
::::I just tested it in IE8 and... no dice. Oh well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:55, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::I'm confused, because [http://kimblim.dk/css-tests/selectors/ this page] says it's supported in IE7 and 8, but when I tried it in my copy of IE8, it didn't work. I may have to retest and see if it wasn't some minor syntactical error that was stopping it working. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:05, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
::::::I'm wondering if it's possibly a standards mode vs. quirks mode (or compatibility mode or whatever the heck they're calling it nowadays) sort of thing, as I know IE likes to pretend it doesn't support some things if it gets kicked into quirks mode. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:57, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Aha, yes, it was a compatibility thing. I slapped a DOCTYPE on the top of my test page, and li+li started working! That seems like it would be the best solution to the problem of cramped lists. I can add it to common.css at some point, if everyone agrees. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:40, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Having tested further, the solution needs more work. We probably do not want to have this spacing in ''all'' of the lists, because otherwise you get this: [http://www.aldenbates.com/spacedcharacters.jpg]. So I think to be viable, we need to limit it to Notes sections somehow. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:16, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Is it possible to reset the margin for lists that are in a table? TABLE LI {whatever the reset would be}. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 07:29, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Yes, however there are occasions where such lists occur outside boxes too. The [[More_than_Meets_the_Eye,_Part_1#Home_video_releases|Home Video stuff]] on the episode pages, lists of external links, the "these pages link to this image" list on the image pages, etc. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:38, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't see why some spacing on those kinds of lists too is a bad thing.
:::::::::::But you could always try something like H2+UL LI+LI, or just reduce the amount of space a little to .25em or such.
:::::::::::Or adapt what Derik did to limit the TFNA/TFU/YoJoe icons to only show up in the "External Links" sections:
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;">#bodyContent a[name='External_links'] + h2 + ul > li > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external,
#bodyContent .tt1_external > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external{
padding-right:61px;
background-image:url('http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/75/Tfuinfo_icon.png');</pre>
:::::::::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:45, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::I tried doing the latter last night, but my CSS fu was not strong enough. The extra h3s in the way complicate things. Maybe Derik can have a crack on it when he's back on deck? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Still haven't had the chance to really look at this yet, but I had a thought: Since we tend to frequently label our Notes sections in the same way, why not just add those labels as extra matching rules? That would cover a good chunk of the H3 issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:16, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Could do, but there would be a bunch of them, and things like [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1#Animation_or_technical_glitches|this]] where the lists are interrupted by paragraphs (I'm not sure why those aren't just H4s). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:28, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I don't really see it as a problem... since most of our existing lists would need the extra spaces edited out anyway after this, we can always standardize other things as well, as soon as we decided on one (semi-colons, H4s, whichever). In fact, working on standardizing our code when we can is a good thing in general anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:43, 4 April 2010 (EDT)

:::::::::::::Having given this more thought: probably the safest way to do it would be to create a template similar to {{tl|columnlist}}. The disadvantage being that it would have applied to all of the lists where it was required. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:07, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Considering the whole point was to get people to have the whitespace they wanted while still using the coding correctly, that's not really what I had in mind. Let me see if I can find some time to hack away at it, provided Derik doesn't show up first. Honestly, though, considering we don't have a lot of in-body non-table-contained lists, I'd be more inclined to just live with spacing on all of them. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

Hey, if we're moaning about formatting, I got one - is there any way to make the "note" template work with left-aligned pictures that doesn't result in a chunk'o whitespace? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:28, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
:The image float is what makes it tricky, at least visually. Do you have an example handy I can look at? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
::Sure, now that I'm looking, I can't find a truly annoying example of it, but here's a [[Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#Hearts_of_Steel|for instance]]. If that picture was right-aligned, the note would snap up to right under the body text, but because the pic's on the left, it creates that whitespace. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:16, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
:::OK, did some poking around.
:::Basically, there's a <tt>clear:left</tt> in the CSS for the Notes, and I discovered that the reason why is that you can get [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/wiki-note-wonkyness.jpg this sort of icky visual] otherwise.
:::This could be fixed by removing the <tt>clear:left</tt> and then either putting the Note in a single-cell table or slapping a <tt>display:table</tt> on the CSS for it (which would be cleaner code-wise but may not work in IE or older browsers; I don't know off-hand), but I'm not sure what effect that might have on ''other'' text/image-wrapping situations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

Still don't know why you can't get <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki>. Reasoning that people on those browsers should "either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us" or bulljive like that is idiotic, because unless they visit this specific subsection they won't be aware the stupid thing isn't working due to browser outdatedness. Plus, as a ressource, shouldn't we, I dunno, thrive to be as accessible to as many people as possible, regardless of browser choices? Surely working the code for <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki> so it works on as many browsers as possible can't be that daunting a task? I mean, honestly now, it's just the same break as <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> but without the extra space at the end. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:27, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:I'm not Derik (obviously) but basically... what the {{tl|--}} does is put a "clear:both;" on the header following the template via this:
<pre>.tt1_clearall + a + h1,
.tt1_clearall + a + h2,
.tt1_clearall + a + h3,
.tt1_clearall + a + h4,
.tt1_clearall + a + h5,
.tt1_clearall + a + h6</pre>
:Which involves CSS selectors that older browsers can't handle because they weren't compliant with all of the standards. I think the only other way to handle this would be using javascript to alter the heading in question. Doable, I guess, but it seems like a waste of time to bother for the tiny handful of people who refuse to update to a standards-compliant browser. Whether Derik would feel differently or not, you'd have to ask him.
:There's a lot of newer HTML and CSS standards that help out both viewers and webmasters, that either can't be done with very old browsers or can only be replicated on them by fiddling with complex javascript code. You need to accept that people aren't going to keep from ever using anything new just to accommodate your personal choice to keep using a buggy and outdated browser, especially when you're in an increasingly tiny percentage. Doubly especially when it's something like this where the site is still usable even if it doesn't work.
:(Now, if you were using something like Lynx, which actually ''is'' standards-compliant for everything related to its pure-text methodology--and there are good reasons for choosing to surf sans images--''then'' I think you'd actually have a good case.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:00, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::Hey, I'd love to switch over, but new versions of IE have complete clusterfucks instead of layouts, and while I ''can'' mess around with the layout on Firefox to make it match IE6, the inability to add Office, MSN and AIM shortcuts to the icons, as well as just how freaking ''paranoid'' it is when it comes to browsing, downloading, etc., just makes me very uninterested in using it on a regular basis. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 11:41, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Try using Opera. The button layout is drag-and-drop customizable to ridiculous degrees (my own setup basically looks nothing like the default setup), including being able to [http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons add custom buttons] and website buttons. Its tile-able tab setup and ability to save and quick-insert custom notes and retain form data with the "Back" button is really helpful for Wiki-ing too. There's also things like one-click adding of custom searches (yay TFWiki search). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:54, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

==Categories==
:To distinguish between the group Headmasters and characters appearing in Japan's 1987 franchise, the categories are called "Headmasters" and "Headmasters franchise". Wouldn't it be a better option to have the franchise category be called by its franchise name "The Headmasters"? On top of that, some of its subcategories are called "Headmasters [something]" while others are called "The Headmasters [something]". I suggest to alter them all to either one of the options, preferably the latter one if the main category is changed to include "The".
:The "Universe (2003)" category also has some oddities. First of all, "Universe characters" should probably be further divided to differentiate from the 2008 guys, even if they may not need a category on their own since "Universe (2008)" is practically only characters as is. I'd do it, but right now various (sub)subcategories are called "Universe 2003 [something]" instead of a more logical "Universe (2003) [something]" to be alike to the main category. Is there a reason for that or should it be changed to match? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:20, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
::Distinguishing between the characters and the franchise solely by the presence of the definite article, while TECHNICALLY correct, is just asking for confusion. I do agree with you on the Universe characters and the subcategories of "Universe (2003)", though. -- [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

==Analog/Homage vs Distinct Character==
This has come up in relation to whether or not [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is an homage to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]], particularly as to how both of them relate to [[Sentinel Major]]. [[User:ItsWalky]] informed me on [[Talk:Sentinel_Prime_(G1)]] that (emphasis mine):
"I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime. They are analogs. That relationship goes both ways. ''This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters.'''"

Is that policy and/or the general consensus? I don't see why it should be applied universally as ItsWalky suggests it is, especially with characters like [[Jetfire_(G1)]] and [[Jetfire_(Animated)]] where we have evidence to suggest that two characters are not intended to be homages or different 'versions' of the same character. That said, I'll bow out if the quotation from ItsWalky speaks for the wiki as a whole. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:50, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:As I said, I don't consider Animated Sentinel Prime to share anything with G1 Sentinel Prime but a name. As such, Sentinel ''Major'' is an homage to Animated Sentinel Prime, and cramming him into G1 Sentinel Prime's page does him a disservice.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Well first, an analog is virtually the opposite of an homage. A character is an homage if they are designed to resemble another character WITHOUT actually BEING that character. An analog to a character actually IS the same character, only from another dimension. So Insecticon from Energon could be called an ''homage'' to the original Deluxe Insecticon Barrage because they share a similar paint job. They are, however, different and distinct characters. On the other hand, Energon Insecticon in the Dreamwave Comics is an ''analog'' to Energon Insecticon from the Energon cartoon.
:As for your actual question...I don't really know what your actual question is. Practically speaking, I mean. Jetfire (G1) and Jetfire (Animated) are on two separate pages because they are from two separate continuity families, Primax and Malgus. There is a disamg at the top because of their similar (in this case identical) names. The reuse of the name alone isn't considered a homage, generally, because name reuse is just a fact of life in trademark reservation. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:45, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::Xaaron- The issue that started this seems to be whether [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] and [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] have ''any'' relationship to each other beyond the name, be it through homage or being analogues.
::I think there might be a difference of use of the word 'homage' between various parties here; ItsWalky and [[User:JimSorenson]] both used the term 'version', which Jim treated as synonymous with 'homage', and Walky identified it with 'analogue'. I chose to re-use the terms they were using, since those were at the heart of the disagreement.
::In any case, my question is whether ItsWalky's statement that ''"This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters."'' as quoted above is valid. It suggests to me that the policy and/or consensus is that characters from different continuity families who share a name should be assumed to be analogous. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 23:08, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::No, that's not true. The Mini-Con Safeguard from Transformers Cybertron and the combo robot Safeguard from Transformers Animated are not analogs.
:::But whether they're analogs or not, they're still from different continuity families and would be filed under different character pages. That's where your question breaks down for me: what are you expecting to do or not do differently based on the answer on our "policy"? What are the practical ramifications of your query? I feel like you're suggesting the answer to this analog / distinct character question of yours is going to have sweeping changes on how you plan to contribute to the wiki, but I can't see HOW.
:::Basically...''What's your point''? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:24, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::My point was to find out if ItsWalky spoke for the wiki, or just himself. After all the back and forth arguing with him and JimSorenson over related issues, I'd rather go back to tackling unrelated topics for a while, like correcting typos in articles. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:50, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::The main purpose was related to the Sentinel Prime/Major example, though it's possible it might have other related purposes. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:00, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

==Third Party products such as Fansproject etc==
There's a good amount of folk here who have a lot of these products. While their unofficialness obviously means they cannot have their own articles, would there be ''any'' positive sentiment to somehow giving them a mention? Say a point in the corresponding trivia section? Or failing that, an external link at the bottom of the [[Kitbash]] page to some other archive (if one even exists?)? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:08, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:They've already got a mention in the [[kitbashing]] article, and that suffices. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:21, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

== 1993 European G1 character disambuigation. ==

We do not seem to have any guidelines for the default franchise-of-origin disambuig for the characters from the 1993 European G1 line. And if there ''are'' guidelines, they sure aren't being followed.

The main problem with this group is that all of them were sold in both the G1 and G2 lines in Europe, and many of them were also sold in the American G2 line. Because of this, there are three main groups:

Group 1: Skyscorchers and Axelerators: The American releases at most differed in name and window color from the European releases. Determining which version was out first is nearly impossible, but they were clearly designed for the European market. We currently use (G2) as the default for all of them.

Group 2: Color changers, Aguaspeeders, and Stormtroopers: The US only got the Aquaspeeder molds, but the US bios are, aside from the names, identical to Aquaspeeder and Stormtrooper bios.
*Autobot Color Changer Drench has Aquaspeeder Jetstorm's bio and stats.
*Autobot Color Changer Gobots has Aquaspeeder Deluge's bio and stats.
*Decepticon Color Changer Deluge has Stormtrooper Hydradread's bio and stats.
*Decepticon Color Changer Jetstorm has Stormtrooper Drench's bio and stats.

The Color Changers have the same unknowns as Group 1. Currently, the G2 disambuig is used.

Group 3: Lightformers and Trakkons. None were released in the US. Fearswoop uses the G1 disambuig.

Group 4: Obliterators. Named "Pyro" and "Clench" in G1, and "Spark" and "Colossus" in G2. [[Clench (G2)]] is just plain wrong.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:26, 17 April 2010 (EDT)
:It's a tricky situation, but here are some similar cases that might help us decide:
:1) [[Go-Bot (G2)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Laser Optimus Prime]]
:We call these "Generation 2" despite [http://webspace.webring.com/people/ao/optimus7/G2Frenzy.jpg not having the term] [http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/105/434/692/O5GD.jpg on their packaging.] The timeframe and the faction symbols are enough.
:2) [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2003)|''Universe'' "Spy Changers"]]
:The first release of these toys was in packaging that just said "Transformers" with no subline, much like the Euro pre-G2 examples. But they were released again later in ''Universe'' packaging, which we use for our categorization.
:If we apply those principles to your examples, then in every case I think we end up with G2. "Clench (G2)" is... odd, but not much odder than [[Double Clutch (G2)]].
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:31, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:: True, but the Gobots and Laser Prime still use the G2 version of the Transformers, but the 1993 Euro line still uses the 1992 logo. Hell, aside from the faction symbols, the 1993 toys use the 1992 EVERYTHING. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:48, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Shrug. It's not a perfect analog, but ultimately I don't think there is one. I personally don't see any way of getting an ironclad This Is It answer out of the question, but I do think the examples I gave present a pretty good guide if we want to use it. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:43, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::So should all of these transitional figures be moved to G2 disambigs if needed? Specifically, Should [[Fearswoop (G1)]] move to Fearswoop (G2)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:32, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::If you're asking me, then yes. But the authority lies in the consensus of the mob (which seems to be pretty disinterested in the topic. Try moving the page! I bet you'd get some answers then.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:20, 29 June 2010 (EDT)

::Wow. I'd completely forgotten that G2 actually dropped the "Generation 2" from the packaging towards the end. Thanks. that's actually kind of good to know... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:01, 25 May 2010 (EDT)

== A Visual Representation of Transformer Anatomy ==

For a very long time I've been fascinated with transformer hands and fingers, and was always noting the different ways they were portrayed in art and the toys. Sometimes they look like a painted gloved human hand, other times fingers (3, 4, 5, or more?) are like a bunch of linked short cylinders, and often they are made of various polygons with enormous variation. And then there are the 'hands' that are actually claws or pinchers, or (borg-like who needs a hand-on-this-arm?) weapons like laser cannons (A certain high-ranking one-eyed Decepticon comes to mind). Looking for any articles about hands brought me to the anatomy category page, and while skimming it I realized the obvious: I was looking at a list of pages many of which could easily be represented visually.

Maybe it's been suggested before, and as near as I can tell it doesn't exist (yet), but I wonder why not have a page with a visual representation of transformer anatomy and links where possible. Some 'anatomy', like the software kind probably can't be represented pictorially, but certainly many (most?) could. It would take a lot of work from some folks skilled in illustration, but I think it'd be really cool to have a picture of a transformer (a generic male or one selected to be representative) with annotations of various anatomy, and a close-up of a head & face for head/face specific ones. There could also be a female version (for, say, heel struts, though too many specifics could easily be sexist) and maybe an animal/non-humanoid version. Cut-aways could reveal internal anatomy not easily represented with an exterior-only view and some non-anatomy (like kibble) could also be represented. I've even mused that such an illustration could be a transformer version of da Vinci's [[Wikipedia:Vitruvian_Man|Vitruvian Man] as was done before [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM15casey.jpg], though some readers might misunderstand and think it was an eight-limbed transformer.

So, whadyathink? Is this an old, horrible idea that was harshly rejected years ago, a kinda-sorta OK one that is priority #4,896,929.6, or worst of all does exactly this very thing exist and I somehow missed it? {{unsigned|4.254.84.116}}
:Finding said material varies between source to source. "[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]", I believe, had a few X-ray shots of the TFs (Optimus comes to mind easily), being a DK book. The most recent issue of TV Magazine has a few anatomy pictures of Animated Optimus, Bumblebee, and Starscream, but I'm not sure if earlier TV Magazine issues did so as well. I think they're rather scarce on both sides of the Pacific, though I could be wrong... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:05, 23 April 2010 (EDT)

::Anon poster seems to be suggesting that we make our own anatomy pictures. That's not really within the remit of this site, since we only use canonical information and therefore images. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Heh, I need sleep... But, that answers your question, anon. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:51, 23 April 2010 (EDT)

::::Another canon image I just noticed is on Takara's [[World of Transformers]] site. There's a cutaway of [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:37, 24 April 2010 (EDT)

==Planet Cybertron==
:First, I'd like to point at two above unresolved matters about category names and G1.5 disambs.
:Second, I'm currently motivated to update the information on the wiki regarding Cybertron locations. But I have no clue how to do it. Since we don't split them, can I just lump information from different continuities and/or continuity families together in the intro part and let the fiction section do the sourcing or should I keep the introduction to what usually amounts to "[...] is a city on Cybertron" and the contributions of various continuities unambiguously separated. Also, this whole city-state vs city thing as we've currently got it written down (mostly courtsey of the city template) is confusing the heck out of me. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:14, 27 April 2010 (EDT)

==Google-rank milestone==
For the first time that I've seen, a Google-search for "Transformers wiki" puts us at the top of the list, followed by Wikia and then Wikipedia. Well done, people! (Looking up character names tends to give the reverse order, but still.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:19, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:I remember some months back, we got the #1 result when I checked, though it wasn't consistent in all areas (I made a thread at the Allspark and some people were getting us first, others weren't). Eventually, we sank back down to #2 again somehow. This is the first I've heard of anyone seeing us back at #1. Hopefully we'll stay there, this time! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:22, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:I get us second (tfwiki.net), fourth (tfwiki.virtutechgames.com), fifth (174-143-26-81.slicehost.net), twentyfirst (174.143.26.81) and thirty third (en.tfwiki.net) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:32, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
::...why on earth do we have so many aliases that are publically crawlable? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:46, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:::I PM'd Scout about it on AllSpark a while ago. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::I get first... and Wikia isn't even on the first "screen" of results. ahahahah. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:48, 6 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Oh, and because I forgot to mention it earlier, I'm getting us at #1, too (wikia at second, Wikipedia at 3rd). With any luck, we'll keep the rank this time and never have to worry about confusion with that swirling vortex of ineptitude ever again. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:27, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::Key question... are you logged into your google account when you check? -Derik (not logged in)
:::::I'm not logged into mine, but I still get us #1, Wikia #2, Wikipedia #3. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:49, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yay! (You'd be surprised how often people forget Google is customizing their search results.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:50, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Seems the result swings back and forth, sometimes we got first while sometimes second. (I don't have a Google account.) --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 02:01, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I'm logged into Google, and I get wikia first, then us, then wikipedia. Could the difference be regional? I'm Canadian, if that helps. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Oddly I get us first if I log OUT of my gmail account, but second if I am logged in. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:06, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The results are pretty volatile at the moment. We'd been showing at #1 for me for a few days before Jackpot mentioned it, but since then, I've only seen us coming up in second place. I really do think it would help us if we got the alias problem mentioned above sorted out so that Google was only indexing us once. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:39, 7 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Also people are now starting to link to us at the [http://www.metafilter.com/91256/Mad-Man-Mad-Men-Namor-sleeps-with-the-fishes wrong URL], which can only be bad for us. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:58, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::Yeah, we need to either throw a [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=156449 "no index" robots.txt] file on those other domains (then do [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=164734 this Webmaster Tools bit], if anyone's got those for our site), redirect them, or take them offline (depending on what would work best).
:::::::::::Maybe someone should PM McFly on the Allspark, since that was mentioned as getting a response? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:52, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::The best way, IMHO, is to use a 301 response to direct them to the proper URL . I already PM'd McFly about this, and he said that Scout handles redirects. I didn't get any response when I PM'd her though. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::It's final exam time now. That might have something to do with it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 19:01, 8 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I don't know whether this is just me or not, but tfwiki.virtutechgames.com is throwing a "Page Not Found" at me right now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::It's not working for me either, looks like the alias has been deleted. Awesome! Now we just need to get the IP address, 174-143-26-81.slicehost.net and *.tfwiki.net to redirect and we're set! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
:Teletraan-1 just got linked on Penny Arcade's frontpage. Expect them to go out the top of Google and then have their server burst into flames. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:03, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

== Pyro's Packaging Art Found (Hopefully) ==

OK, I got a big TIF scan sent over from Graham at The Hub, which I present thusly: http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/pyro.tif because it needs some cleanup and I figured I'd let someone who knows better what they're doing do said cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:29, 14 May 2010 (EDT)
: Hoorraaay! Cleaned up and put up. Thanks! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:24, 14 May 2010 (EDT)

== What the hell is emopanda? :D ==

Hey, people have been asking me what the emopanda URL is that they see when they load up the wiki (I've seen it too). I recall it has something to do with Derik, but why is it loading when we load our wiki? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:42, 19 May 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's site. He has a stylesheet file on there which has experimental stuff in it, which (theoretically) later gets moved to the global stylesheet here once it's all tested. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:55, 19 May 2010 (EDT)

==Userpage caps==
Can we get a hardline policy on User Page sizes? Preferably, the smaller the better? I'm getting juuuuuuuuust a wee bit sick of the Recent Changes page being cluttered by people turning this wiki into a fucking Myspace account. That this recent one is ''not in English'' doesn't help. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:My guess is we could, but page size has little to do with the number of edits that can be done to it. So, is it worth bothering about a user page limit? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::Perhaps a limit to the number of times a user page can be edited in a day. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 12:43, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Ditto. Also, I say we ban the hell out of user pages in other languages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:46, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::How about some simple rules?
:::* '''ONE''' image for your page. That's all you need.
:::* No collection listing. Nobody cares.
:::* Keep it to one paragraph of standard info. This is not a dating site, we don't care about your likes and dislikes.
:::* Listing ''work directly related to updating this wiki'' on top of the above-mentioned paragraph is fine. Projects on your plate, past completed ones, etc, all fine.
:::* '''ENGLISH'''.
:::* All User Pages are subject to mods going "NO" and taking a chainsaw on fire to it.
:::I think this is not unreasonable. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:58, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::One more.
::::A user page can only be edited X (we'll decide the exact number later) times a day. Any more and you are subject to being temporarily banhammered. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:03, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::So, would point 3 also forbid any stuff like personal canon or thoughts on canon? I kinda like those sections on user pages. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:06, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::Basically, yes. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:08, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::I'm... with Geewunling, actually. Notes like personal canon and fave things are useful for knowing what a user's biases are and what areas of the wiki they're likely to work on, which I find interesting and useful.
:::::::IMHO for the most part the real problem is people who make frequent edits to their userpage without making many wider wiki edits, not necessarily the content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::That can be pretty well covered in the initial paragraph. If you like BW best and think you'll do mostly that, fine, say so. We don't need your fanfic ideas. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:51, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::My user page should be the guideline for all of you. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:29, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::I guess, to be straightforward with my opinion, if the person's not posting anything offensive, uploading multiple pictures, or cluttering up Recent Edits, I don't see how it matters all that much what a person has on their userpage.
::::::::::If anything, there's some people I remember wishing had ''more'' information about themselves on their userpages, especially the admins. Makes it easier to get a mental map of which regular is which. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:32, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::That's my opinion, too. I don't think it matters what is on a user page, even *gasp* a foreign language. If the edits could be restricted to one a day though, that would be cool. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:36, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::I fully support all those points. Our space should not be dedicated to MySpace accounts for Transformers nerds. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xfa27/Demolisher It could be worse...] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:19, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::::::All the better that we left. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
Hmmm ... what about something like all user page edits being automatically tagged as minor edits?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:I don't hide minor edits, because even "minor" edits can be big fuckups. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:07, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
My userpage is the one we should all aim to emulate. X-P - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
::Is there a function that would hide all user page edits? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Select "User" from the Namespace dropdown and then tick the "Invert selection" box. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:37, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

===No collection listing ===
[[Greg Sepelak|M Sipher]] suggested that above. Can I (or any other regular, non-admin user) tell people to remove their collection lists? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 16:04, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

== Good idea from the other place, no really! ==

Looking over the other Transformers wiki, I noticed that their recent changes takes multiple successive edits of the same page by the same user and shows them as a single listing (with a clickable drop down showing more details). Is there any way we can get this function here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:10, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:It doesn't work like that. It actually takes multiple edits of the same page within a specific timeframe and shows them as a single listing. Whether it's the same user or not doesn't factor in. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:If you mean the enhanced recent changes page, we already have that here. You can turn it on in your preferences. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:54, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

::I noticed the point Blackout made after examining it more, it still seemed like a useful function - particularly with some of the problems we've had with "clogging recent changes". Good to know we have it here. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:43, 26 May 2010 (EDT)

:::It's a good function (on Wikia, it only appear for anon and bot users) since it is much more convenience. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 00:05, 27 May 2010 (EDT)

== Wikia's New Initiative ==

Apparently, they're now offering to absolutely remove all ads from small wikis, for 19.95 dollars a month.

Why am I not surprised? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:10, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
: Hahahahaha. That's cheaper than what we pay for hosting, but still sooooo not worth it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:14, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
::It's even more stupid once you realize that some wikis are incredibly small, edited by a small group of people, and the only anons are regular editors forgetting to log in. (My wiki in a nutshell.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:20, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
:::Those are about the only wikis that would actually be eligible for this, since they have to get less than 20,000 page views a month. For comparison, we get about 8 times that per ''day''. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:21, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
::::And anyone running that small a wiki who's willing to throw money at it would be much better off getting their own webspace for $10/month and installing MediaWiki software on it (not to mention getting their own domain and POP e-mail and being able to upload and do whatever they want with the rest of their webspace). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:40, 28 May 2010 (EDT)
:::::They're only giving it to the first 100 wikis. I'm pretty much ready to take bets on how long until Wikia realizes only twelve people in the universe have gone for it and now they must make it 19.95 dollars a ''week ''in order to make any sort of profit. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:34, 29 May 2010 (EDT)

== Image leeching ==
Is there much we can do about people leeching images off the wiki? That is, people on forums directly linking the image off of our server and not bothering to rehost it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:38, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
:I believe there was a discussion about this at some point. The general consensus was to somehow get all hotlinked images to change to another image or something. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:47, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
::There's plenty that can be done. The problem has been getting the folks with server access to actually do it. :> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:55, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I've brought this up a few times to no avail :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:05, 15 June 2010 (EDT)
::::But seriously, people on forums are not going to stop directly linking images (thus costing you money and making the wiki perform more sluggishly than necessary) until something is done about this. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:50, 17 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Have you emailed [[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] about it? Not sure how often she checks the Community Portal. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:34, 17 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Good idea, I just did so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:27, 18 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::She never got back to me. Now what? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:47, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::That's about as far as I got with the subdomain issue too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

== Slicehost RSS Rerouting ==

Is there any way to get the RSS feed to never switch over to the Slicehost IP? Maybe I'm the only one who bothers subscribing to the Recent Changes feed, but it's really annoying ending up with dozens of duplicate entries constantly because the feed keeps switching between sending the TFWiki.net server entries and the Slicehost duplicate entries. (Not to mention that accidentally clicking to the site from the Slicehost entries instead of the TFWiki ones lands you on the wrong server for editing. Been tripped up by that a couple times, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:35, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
:Out of interest, what are you using as an RSS reader? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:05, 22 June 2010 (EDT)
::I just use Opera's built-in RSS reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:34, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

==Transform into other bots==
I was wondering if this gimmick has ever been done. As an example: Ratchet transforms into Ironhide, or something like that.
Its odd..a transformer becoming another one, but I HAD to ask if it'd be done or not.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
:Bizarrely, [[:Image:Skywarpatron.jpg|it almost was]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:54, 21 June 2010 (EDT)
::Technically it ''has'' been done, if you count [[Shockwave (Animated)]] and [[Punch (G1)]]. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:40, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

==Anon Criticism==
I find this wiki to be a piece of shit. What did you hope to accomplish wih these captions? Why didn't you go to Uncyclopedia to make your articles funny? But they probably wouldn't accept on account of how lame it is. -General Q-Nek
:I just realized that by reverting your post, I wasn't following my own advice. Most people here like the jokes, if you don't like them start your own Transformers related wiki. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:31, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::Heck, go help the Wikia. Goodness knows they need it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::But the Wikia also has jokes on it, so it won't help our humourless anon at all! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:43, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::An entire wiki delivered completely seriously would be monotonous. As the [[Transformers Wiki:Caption]] page explains, serious captions tend to be redundant, and since Transformers is a (mostly) light-hearted kids' franchise, we might as well have fun with it. Captions are also a reward for users who are frequently helpful. And Uncyclopedia is different; their wiki is devoted entirely to nonsense, and for the most part we deliver actual information in addition to these funny captions and sometimes comments. That's how I see it. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 18:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::To abates, there is some talk at the wikia about getting away from the funny. If our anonymous friend can point to an instance where the humor gets in the way of the information, that particular joke might need to be changed. Otherwise, I've gotta agree with NCZ - it's about giant frickin' robots from outer space, how serious can it really be? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:00, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, what Khajidha said. While I also agree on principle that I think a serious TF wiki is probably pointless, if Wikia has to keep existing at all I'd rather see it finally go in that direction to stop being a fifth-rate copy of us. And our anon here would probably be better served helping the swap there than mouthing at us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Out of the two admins over at the Wikia, at least of them (Xeno) is firmly against losing the humour, so unfortunately I don't think it'll happen while he's in charge. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 24 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Pity. I guess Wikia's going to keep going nowhere, then, until they realize that almost everyone who's OK with editing a funny wiki is already here with us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hurr Hurr Hurrr!!! I was just joking! I wanted to see if it would get deleted. The jokes aren't to bad. ( but im still in favor of Uncyclopedia's jokes.) I actually kudos this Wikia when it comes to delivering information. A thousand lamentations. again, I thought this would be deleted, I just wanted to see how often this page would be checked. ( I guess i could of done that more efficiently.)-General Q-Nek

Also, I enjoy how calm people were when replying. I wish I had some way of helping, but I'm more of novice to the deep Transformer knowledge.-General Q-Nek
:People commenting on the humor is a semi-frequent thing, so... you get used to hauling out the counterarguments.
:As for how often pages get checked, most of the regulars keep frequent tabs on everything. If you want to track changes to any specific pages, you can create an account and add pages to your watchlist. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:24, 26 June 2010 (EDT)

Interesting, thanks for the info!-General Q-Nek

=="Games" vs. "Fiction"==
I noticed in [[Optimus Prime (Prime)]] that info from ''Exodus'' is filed under "Fiction", while ''War for Cyberton'' and ''Cybertron Adventures'' is in a separate "Games" section. I didn't think this was how we did things, so I was going to put everything under "Fiction" and do away with "Games", but I double-checked some movieverse articles to be sure, and lo and behold "Games" is separate there too (such as in [[Shockwave (Movie)]]). This was an explicit change - looking in the history, the Shockwave article used to have an all-inclusive "Fiction" section. Why was this changed? Games are fiction too. I see absolutely no reason to separate them, any more than we would separate the ''Find Your Fate'' books. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:48, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
: Splitting off video game information helps pages from getting too unwieldy. Pages such as [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s are much more readable this way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:51, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::That seems really arbitrary to me. I guess there's little harm done in doing that to Cheetor's page, since the BW games are so story-light and have no impact on other fiction. But for TF:Prime it seems anti-informative: Unlike the BW games, WfC is a defining element of the larger novel/cartoon storyline. Shunting it off into a "Games" ghetto breaks up the information flow pointlessly. I think a "Games" section should be the exception, not the rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:59, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::I'd actually treat WFC as the exception. It is the only video game that ever "mattered" from a story perspective. With that in mind, I would include it within Fiction. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:02, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::::I'd say its fiction matters very little, since the novel ''Exodus'' includes its events and supercedes it, since it's apparently written straight from the new "Prime" story bible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:39, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The Movieverse games are pretty story-heavy. If you look at [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], the game writeups are substantial, and there's nothing more superfluous about their continuities than the Titan comics or the Cyber Mission cartoons, which of course ''are'' included in "Fiction". I agree with the general principle that unwieldiness is a problem worth addressing, but this is an incredibly arbitrary way to fight it as an across-the-board rule. Scalpels and hammers and all that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::I think I was the one who started separating them as I wrote the sections. I mainly did it for layout reasons (I prefer to make separate sections clearly defined), and I figure that given video games are usually the least-edited types of articles on this wiki, they were considered to be a lesser form of fiction than other stuff (as seen by Walky's comment about it not mattering). Also, until WFC, video game fiction tended to be splinter continuities. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Walky's point--and it is a pertinent one, that I hadn't considered--is that in time WFC could prove to be just as much a splinter continuity. Exodus appears to be the "real" story--it certainly includes more concepts, more back history, and more of the developing brand structure that Aaron discussed in his "Once Upon A Time On Cybertron" shpiel at Botcon. WFC might differ from this "core" story the same way basically all the other games differ from theirs--and most of us ''at this point in time'' see it the other way around because we've been hearing about WFC as being the next main fiction product in and of itself since about last December, whereas ''Exodus'' was announced much more recently, seemingly out-of-the-blue, and had no advance samples / screenshots / P.R. that could compare with the WFC blitz. In other words, they treated the "real" story as an afterthought, probably because they know young kids are more into gaming than books, but in the long run WFC's fiction will matter for less. So... uhh... maybe it should stay in "Games" after all? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:44, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Sure, I get that. Even accepting that Exodus is going to be dominant (which at the moment is still a guess, albeit an educated one), I really dislike the idea of game-fiction being walled off by default just because of its medium. It's like we're saying that games ''can't'' matter. If we're going to start making value judgements about which fiction is primary and which is of secondary notice - not a bad idea, mind - I think we should do it right and apply it across the board. Like I said above, there's no real difference in those terms between the movieverse games and the Titan comics, so if one deserves to be sectioned off, then so does the other. I could see dividing the "Fiction" section between "Core continuities" and "Offshoots & micro-continuities", allowing the writeups on the movies + IDW comics to be read through without interruption. That could also help out some of our runaway G1 pages. But as it is now, picking on games is just a half-measure to muddled and weirdly prejudicial effect. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:28, 4 July 2010 (EDT)

==Hall of Fame "faction" markers?==
It dawns on me that perhaps up in the top-right with the other faction markers, we should have something indicating that this person/character is now part of the Transformers Hall of Fame. Perhaps a silver Matrix, to go along with the trophies from BC. Of course, the way Hasbro sees characters, we'd be giving this tag to four different Bumblebees, but still. I think it'd be a nice addition. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:05, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:Taking the fact that they're all one character in Hasbro's eyes, should we tag the disambiguation page as well? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::No, because that's not strictly true. Predacon Megatron is apparently considered a separate "entity" from G1/Movie/Animated/Prime Megatron. Mini-Con Shockwave certainly wouldn't be considered the same as G1/En/Movie/Prime Shockwave. And let's not even go into the problems raised by putting it on the "Dinobot" disambig. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Point. But how far do we go with each "character"? Does RID count? It got no love during the clip shows. What about the Optimus cloned and tortured to become Nemesis Prime? What about Shattered Glass? If we limit ourselves to what Hasbro showed in the clip shows, then we would lose Animated Grimlock, had he won. So how far to go with this? Just hit the big ones (G1/UT/Movie/Animted/Prime) and be done with it, or go further? I just want to see this get fleshed out before we start. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::SG Prime actually was in the display case and apparently "is" Optimus Prime as far as the Hall is concerned. Yeah. So moving forward, I would suggest making a parallel structure for everybody involved: that is, if ANYBODY got a SG / UT / whatever version as "themselves," then everybody else could be seen as getting it too and, thus, SG Grimlock is "himself" and would have gotten the Matrix icon.
::::The RID thing bugs me--need to look more closely at those Hall display pics and see if there was ANY relevant merch in there at all. If it wasn't.... I guess we really would leave them out. It's no harder to see RID Megs and UT Megs as "being" "the" Megatron, but... this is an area where we shouldn't try to make the rules. I just wish the people who did make them had been more consistent about it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:56, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Nope, nuttin' there from RID. I looked back through the display pics. Everybody has the extended G1-iverse plus Movie and Animated. Two had UT and one had SG. I guess those are the "favored" continuities and the ones in which their character analogues would get whatever icon we choose to give. And as Siph said, there was no display "crossover" from Beasts to anywhere else, so Optimus Primal isn't Optimus Prime and we are spared that degree of headache. Though here's another one: even though Hasbro had full access to the toys, they DIDN'T include Generations Prime/Megs/BB in the displays, so does that mean the Prime characters are not "themselves"? But Shattered Glass IS? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I bet RID clips didn't show up because of the usual Disney stuff. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:29, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I think you are over thinking it. The thing to ask yourself is, would Hasbro even consider RID Prime or Predacon Megatron for a spot of their own in the Hall of Fame? No, probably not, since "Optimus Prime" and "Megatron" pretty much covers them. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
I would extend this to also putting gold Matrix icons on the real-life people that got hall-of-famed.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:47, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:I concur. At least that's easy. We don't have multiple Peter Cullen articles floating around here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:49, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:For an image, how about the [[:Image:BotCon2010-HOFkeepsake.jpg|silhouette of the statue seen here]]? It could be cleaned up a bit and made black and white. It could also be a little larger than our current icons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:54, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
::That is totally not going to be recognizable at faction icon size.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:55, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
[[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|thumb|right]]
It'll have to wait until I get home from work tonight, but I feel confident I could make an icon based off of the stylized Matrix and starburst circle around it that the tops of the trophies had. I'll post it here once I have it done, and we can tweak it if we don't like it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)
:Alright, here's my first stab at it. If it were faction-icon sized, it'd look like this: [[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|30px]]

:Whaddaya think? Will that hold up to being recolored gold and silver?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:07, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::Hot damn, looks good to me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:33, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::Looks great! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:40, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Alright, the factions template code for these are "hofgold" and "hofsilver". I've tagged all the real-life inductees, as well as put a silver icon on Dinobot, but now I'm heading out to do a grocery run. Anybody should be able to tag the rest now, but I'll work on tagging some when I get back if there are any left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== The 11000th article ==

I think was [[Assembly]]. Wheeeee! Sorry, Irvine, you missed it by one... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)

== BigBadToyStore ==

Does that deserve an article yet? (maybe to go in the "Retailers" category) They got their first Hasbro exclusive (see http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=has19150&mode=retail). [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:02, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== What's Canon For Each Continuity ==

OK, after watching one seriously stupid and quite frankly embarrassing mess of a thread on the Allspark, I feel a need to say something. Namely that I'm really tired of our tendency to apply cross-continuity retcons all over the place.

Yes, everything official is canon for some continuity. But the key here is SOME CONTINUITY. I think we need to stop treating any details that take place in one continuity as if they definitely for sure affect another separate continuity. We need to start dropping the 100% in-universe conceit just a little and acknowledging the real-life reality of things. Namely that even if elements of one continuity are borrowed into another, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers of that continuity borrowed from have to acknowledge it in their own storyline. In fact, in some cases they even explicitly don't.

Just to borrow one scenario, every time we go "Oh, well, this event that happened in an Animated book/FunPub story uses some Movie concept, so obviously it's now canon for the Movie fiction too!" we just confuse the matter by presenting as canon for the Movie continuity things that have not actually happened in the actual Movie fiction, and may never actually happen in the future. Since the Movie writers--to be quite blunt and bringing in a dose of cold hard reality--probably do not know or care what an Animated reference or a FunPub story have done in their universe.

I'm not saying we shouldn't document this sort of cross-continuity mention at all, but merging pages based on it and writing it up in the main continuity sections and all that, well, it's just really getting to the point of being stupid and confusing. I'm starting to feel like, instead of getting to just write stuff up based on what happened in the actual fiction for each continuity, or what the writers who are actually in charge of writing each continuity actually said about their own continuity, now I gotta worry about mind-reading the wiki's pet fanon theories about which things that were never meant to be related by the actual authors go together after all.

And when it leads to things like some of us on the forums actually trying to tell the authors that we know better than they do about what they have planned for ''their own storylines''... just, come on people.

Yeah, I know I'm probably the only person who actually feels this way and you're just going to heap insults on me, but I'm just tired of this, especially to the degrees it's been going on lately. It makes the wiki confusing and ridiculous for me to both read and edit, especially when done in the sheer volume it's been done lately, and I don't like being in the position of feeling this negatively towards our setup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:22, 5 July 2010 (EDT)

:This is a little too generic a rant to be helpful. Obviously, you're talking about the Sideways merger. What else, specifically, is being affected by this sort of thing? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:32, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::And Alignment supposedly being canon. And the renaming of the G1 characters. And merging Alpha Trion's pages. And really the whole multiversal singularity in general and everything related to that. And... etc. etc. (At least the whole thing with Sentinel Major was finally stopped by the affected author in question putting his foot down and people eventually relenting.) It's been bugging me for a while, but the mess lately was really kind of just the last straw where it tipped into "OK, this is just starting to get unignorably dumb" territory. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:50, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Whatever Hasbro approves of is canon. It doesn't matter if people are annoyed by it or it goes against original authorial intent. Transformers is Hasbro's property and if they sign their name off on something, it is canon.
::::Pretty much. There's no question a lot of fanon made its way into the AAII, but it's official now. You can blame the writers for taking advantage of their official positions to win internet arguments, but you can't blame the Wiki for acknowledging what they got published. As for Alpha Trion, he now has the dubious honor of being one of the 13, a multiversal singularity. Merging his pages had to be done -- he can't just be one of the 13 in SOME continuities, b/c the whole point of the 13 up til now is that there's only one of each of them in the multiverse. Does it make sense that G1 Alpha Trion and SG Alpha Trion are the same guy? No, not really. But it's the officially mandated position of Hasbro now, so...roll with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:10, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::It's official for Animated. But last I knew, Sorenson was not licensed to write fiction for anything but the Animated continuity, so what he says in the Almanac is only canon for Animated and is a footnote at best in those other continuities.
:::::Now, when the actual Movie writers make some fiction officially licensed as a part of the Movie continuity saying that ROTF Sideways is the same all the other Sideways, then it'll actually be full canon for the Movie continuity.
:::::Likewise, Alpha Trion is a member of the 13 in Exodus, which is a part of the Prime continuity. I missed the part where that constitutes official fiction for any of the other continuities. Again, footnote sure, but until we get official fiction corroborating from those other continuities...
:::::He certainly can be a singularity in only those continuities that actually use the singularity. Again, step outside of the in-universe a bit and accept that in the real world the different writing teams can and do end up doing different things with their characters and storylines. They don't always fit into a nice tidy bow, and I do not think it should be our job to fanwank it into doing so; it should just be our job to present the canon as-is for each continuity's actual fiction, even if that means some contradictions.
:::::Like I said, we should not be misrepresenting things that did not happen in the official fiction specific to a continuity as if it actually did, just because it happened in an entirely separate continuity.
:::::Because, what Exodus does is no more "officially mandated by Hasbro" than what IDW does, what Animated does, what the Movies do, etc. It's ''all'' official fiction. For ''some'' continuity. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:35, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::The entire point of a multiversal singularity is that who and what they are is official across ALL continuities. To say Alpha Trion can be a multiversal singularity only in Prime continuity is a contradiction of terms.
::::::And "official by Hasbro" means "official by Hasbro". I don't understand where this dissection of Animated and Movie universes is coming from. Sorenson wasn't given a license to Animated continuity and Michael Bay a license to Movie continuity...they were each just told to make something for Hasbro's Transformers property. The franchise indicator / universal stream breakdown for the fiction is an IN-fiction construct, not a legal distinction of rights between contributors. The movie writers don't have any more rights to those characters or properties than Sorenson, or Fun Pub, or IDW. They're all working for Hasbro. Like that quote from Nick Roche about how he thought he'd get to tell the story of Kup's reactivation, but IDW let Shane McCarthy do what he wanted with the character. IDW Kup is IDW's baby, not Roche's. They got to decide when and where he was used. And Sideways (ROTF) is Hasbro's baby, not some movie writer's. Sorenson was authorized to write about Hasbro's intellectual property called ''The Transformers'', employing the universal stream distinction for their individual franchises. Ergo, anything published in Allspark Almanac II was true for anything it said it was true for...it wasn't somehow "limited" just to Animated concepts. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:55, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::::Hasbro "signs off" on the notion that everybody ever named Optimus Prime is the exact same character. Their use of terminology is not exactly the same as ours. We've been working around that for years. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:03, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Good point. It's also been [[Continuity#Unified Japanese continuities|officially declared]] that RiD and the movieverse are in-continuity with G1. We never even ''tried'' to take that seriously, so why should be obligated to accept these other cross-continuity declarations?
:::::We're at a very interesting decision point here. Before it was ever acknowledged officially, the idea of the TF multiverse was accepted by fans as simply an in-universe way of giving equal regard to all of the contradictory series. But over the last decade or so, the multiverse has oozed into canon in a slipshod, right-hand-doesn't-know-what-the-left-is-doing, nobody-at-the-wheel way. And we who have taken up the burden of documenting it are starting to feel the strain of untangling the crush of continuities elbowing each other and stepping on each other's feet.
:::::I'm not sure what the ideal approach is; I wonder how comic-book wikis have dealt with this. My personal preference, as I [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Alpha_Trion|elaborated elsewhere]], is to try to portray each series as it defines itself, giving only passing credence to cross-series retcons and decrees. I certainly haven't thought through all the practical ramifications, but it seems the most rational starting point to me.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:58, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::RID (or ''Car Robots'', rather) is absolutely in the G1 continuity family. Just on the Japanese side. The movie thing only came up in one website timeline. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:12, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::You are mistaken. RID is not in G1, but Car Robots is. Our RID is a distinct cluster (Viron) from G1 (Primax). RID and CR are in different clusters. But to keep us from having duplicate articles for everybody in Car Robots/RID, we note what's going on (or we should). We had this discussion a while ago, and I guess you weren't there or something. Japan once claimed that the movie (well, their version of the movie) took place in G1. This didn't end up happening and Japanese stuff since has ignored that tidbit, but even if it hadn't, their movie is not the same "universal stream" as ours to begin with. It would be the same thing as RID/CR. We don't ignore these things. --[[Special:Contributions/65.60.140.213|65.60.140.213]] 00:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:It is a little bit more difficult to brush these things off when the fiction is explicitly dealing with "The [[Multiverse]]". It is officially establishing new facts in multiple timestreams. I say this as someone who doesn't always like it when long-time nameless things get retroactive names. The Alignment thing is kind of wonky. It goes beyond the Multiverse and sort of breaks the fourth wall and directly tweaks real-world information. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:37, 5 July 2010 (EDT)

MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

Talk:Steeljaw (SG)