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Transformers: Kiss Players (franchise)

2012-04-29T21:22:49Z

67.6.96.48:

{{disambig3|Kiss Players}}

{{nav-kissplayers}}

'''''Transformers: Kiss Players''''' (トランスフォーマーキスぷれ ''Toransufōmā Kisu Pure'') is a Japanese Transformers [[franchise]] which ran from 2006 to 2007, masterminded by artist and writer [[Yūki Ōshima]]. By virtue of being the ''only'' Transformers toyline and fiction released in Japan by Takara between the conclusion of ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' and the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]], it was also effectively the ''main'' Transformers line in the country for that time, despite its small scope. It takes place in the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]], specifically in the five-year interval between ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' and ''[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010 (franchise)|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010]]''.

The series can be defined as belonging to the extreme creepy end of the "[[Wikipedia:Magical girl|Magical girl]] fetish/horror" genre occupied by series such as [[Wikipedia:Shadow Star|Narutaru]] and [[Wikipedia:Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-Chan|Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-Chan]]. It derives its name from its controversial gimmick, which involves Transformers getting "power-ups" when they are kissed by [[human]] girls—the eponymous "[[Kiss Player]]s"—who fuse with the robots and share their adventures. Although this plotline may seem like a shift in demographics to little girls, it is said that this line was aimed at a much older adult male audience. Indeed, the toys bear an "ages 15 and up" warning, and the subject matter of the accompanying manga is far from child-friendly.

Following the conclusion of its first storyline in late 2006, Kiss Players moved into its second and final phase, '''Kiss Players Position''', which shifted focus to a ''distinctly'' more PG-rated (and "huge Transformers history nerd") theme, though it was still kind of heavy on the "cute girls" theme.

The ''Kiss Players'' franchise comprises:

* [[Transformers: Kiss Players (toyline)|A toyline]]
* [[Transformers: Kiss Players (radio drama)|A weekly radio drama series]]
* [[Transformers: Kiss Players (manga)|A three-issue manga]]

Additionally, Ōshima's other major contribution to ''Transformers'' at the time, the 1-page ''[[Information Administration Teletraan 15 Go! Go!]]'' comic published in ''[[Dengeki Hobby]]'' magazine, also featured several tie-ins to the ''Kiss Players'' story. These primarily served to introduce readers to the ''Kiss Players'' story and characters when the line was launched, and then later, to summarize the final few radio dramas when both series were drawing to a close. ''Information Administration Teletraan 15 Go! Go!'' also featured the first part of a story in which [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s ghost possessed Atari (which was continued in the radio drama), and in the second year, notably incorporated the further adventures of [[Glit]], [[Sundor]] and [[Rosanna (KP)|Rosanna]], the ''Kiss Players Position'' cassette trio, who were rather confusingly dropped from the radio storyline in its second week and never mentioned again.
{{quote|The Japanese aren't like us.|Gustavo Wombat|KISS Players Summarized in Just One Sentence}}

==Storyline==
===Kiss Players===
[[Image:KP001.jpg|right|300px|thumb|He doesn't have any lips, Marissa.]]
Following the events of [[The Transformers: The Movie|Unicron's attack]] in 2005, in which [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] was hurled into space by [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]], the [[Decepticon]] leader crash-landed on [[Earth]], his impact utterly devastating [[Tokyo]]. This horrific event shattered Transformer-human relations, and the government agency known as the [[Earth Defense Command]] was formed, led by Commander [[Hitoshizuku Amaō]], who had been driven to her fervent hatred of Transformers by the death of her daughter in the catastrophe. With its headquarters established in Galvatron's impact crater, the EDC set about its assigned task of ridding the Earth of Transformers. To accomplish this, the EDC constructed a fleet of its own man-made Transformers known as [[Autorooper]]s, reverse-engineered from the remains of Galvatron himself. With the Autoroopers' added power and the establishment of an [[anti-electron]] field around the Earth, they succeeded in forcing all remaining Transformers to flee the planet. Horrified at what his defeat of Galvatron had wrought, new Autobot leader Rodimus returned the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] to [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], and became Hot Rod once again.

As 2006 settled in, Earth had been rendered completely devoid of Transformers, and the rebuilding of Tokyo was underway. Galvatron's impact was revealed to have had a much greater effect than anyone could have predicted—the blast caused by his impact had scattered his [[Unicron]]-empowered cells throughout the planet's atmosphere. When they came into contact with other animals and objects, from marine life to cars, they fused with them, becoming one of many monstrous creatures referred to as [[Legion]]. This catastrophe also created the means to defend the world against the Legion — when Galvatron's cells came into contact with human beings, they also become able to fuse with other entities containing his cells by kissing them. With their Autoroopers being the perfect candidates for this "[[ParasiTech]]" fusion process, the EDC began recruiting and training these "Kiss Players" as combat [[Ne Squad|squads]] to battle the Legion.

Some time after the death of her parents in a Legion attack, [[Atari Hitotonari]] found herself pursued by one of the monstrous creatures. EDC operative [[Shaoshao Li]] came to her rescue, but the time-limit of her fusion with her Autorooper, [[Autorooper|Ne-04]], expired and she was ejected from her partner, unconscious. Atari discovered that she was a Kiss Player when she kissed Shaoshao's Autorooper (to the delight of squad commander [[Hitoshizuku Amaō]], who had long known of the girl's potential) and fused with it, defeating the Legion.

[[Image:KP002.jpg|left|250px|thumb|I... guess that's better?]]
Atari was subsequently drafted into EDC Tokyo Autorooper squad, where she was routinely terrorized by her sociopathic teammate, [[Ringo Chikuma]], but managed to make friends with [[Kayu Michikusa]]. Atari was clearly not suited to EDC life, getting carsick, being embarrassed by the Kiss Fusion, and accidentally swallowing a Legion and having to have her Autorooper shrink down and venture inside her body to remove it. Her most significant escapade during this time was when she was possessed by [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s ghost, who had her seek out [[Doctor Arkeville]] in order to have the scientist create him a [[Starscream (G1)|new body]], only for it to be almost immediately destroyed by the EDC's Autoroopers.

Following his death in 2005, the legacy of Optimus Prime became something of a rallying point for those disgruntled with the government's anti-Transformer movement. An anti-EDC commando force established itself; among its members was [[Marissa Faireborn]], the daughter of soldier [[Flint (G.I. Joe)|Dashiell Faireborn]] and a childhood friend of Shaoshao Li, who was once rescued by and often played with Prime when she was a child. When the EDC decided to move Prime's body from America to Tokyo, Marissa and her commando squad staged a violent ambush on the transport vehicles in an attempt to liberate the Autobot commander's remains. The whole affair turned out to be a trap, when Prime's body was revealed to be a decoy concealing an Autorooper unit piloted by Ringo, who gunned down the whole team, save Marissa herself. Realizing that she had been duped, Marissa turned her attention to a familiar container trailer in the convoy, which concealed the real Prime's body. As an out-of-control Autorooper attempted a ParasiTech fusion with Prime's body, Marissa discovered that she too was a Kiss Player when, in giving her childhood friend a farewell kiss, she found herself merging with an unexpectedly resurrected Prime, complete with a new body formed from the Autorooper and his own remains. Prime and Marissa went on the run from the EDC, with Prime reluctant to allow Marissa to enter any of their battles. To placate her, he would often allow her to visit beaches under the cover of night, so that she could indulge her passion for surfing. On one such trip the pair were attacked by a Legion that had fused with an octopus. In the course of their adventures and battles, Marissa met Atari, and she and Prime saved her life several times.

Shaoshao, meanwhile, had disappeared from EDC service after her failure to save Atari during the earlier battle with the Legion, spirited away to a hidden facility beneath the EDC headquarters. There, she was to become part of a twisted experiment involving dismembering Legion corpses, only to be saved from a chewey fate when Hot Rod arrived on Earth as part of his mission of redemption. Crashing into the EDC Headquarters, Hot Rod was immediately attacked by the imprisoned Legions, which attempted to fuse with him. Before the anti-electron field could fully disable the Autobot, Shaoshao kissed him and, like Prime, he was reformatted into a new body complete with the Legions' Galvatron cells. Like Marissa and Optimus Prime, the pair soon found themselves on the run from the EDC's forces, but unlike that pair, Shaoshao did not get along particularly well with Hot Rod. This, it turned out, was due to her own dislike of Transformers, due to her belief that Marissa and her friendship had ended when Optimus Prime had taken Mariss away from her. She swore to use Hot Rod's power to defeat Prime and win her friend back, and trained Hot Rod in the martial arts to this end.

Plagued by destructive impulses caused by the Galvatron cells within his body, Optimus Prime took control of a swarm of Legion units and led them in an attack on the EDC headquarters. Hacking their way through the Autoroopers that opposed them, Marissa and Prime found their attentions diverted by Hot Rod and Shaoshao, who engaged them in battle. As Hot Rod accused Prime of being an impostor (since the real deal was supposed to be dead), Atari fights back her inhibitions and bonds with her Autorooper, successfully managing to turn back the attacking force.

[[Image:AutrooperAtari.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Enough, already!]]
In the wake of this, frivolity became the order of the day, as Shaoshao sulked about Optimus Prime and talked up Hot Rod's skills and weapons, accompanying him on a fishing trip to Tokyo Bay Bridge, where they battled Legions. Marissa lost her underwear and Shaoshao got her hands on it (''yeeeeah''), and both girls began to reflect on their own pasts, and the histories of their Transformer partners. As Prime and Hot Rod began to suffer violent, [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]-filled nightmares caused by their Galvatron-cell-infused bodies, Shaoshao witnessed the ghostly figure of a young girl riding on the shoulder of a Legion.

Atari, meanwhile, continued to suffer the whimsical cruelties of Ringo, and could get no help on the matter from Kayu. Angered by her friend's apparent lack of concern, Atari broke a promise to her out of spite. Later, when she sought out her friend to apologize, Atari discovered that Kayu had suffered under Ringo the same way she now was, and that Kayu was now gone, supposedly transferred to another squad within the EDC. Some time later Kayu's Autorooper ran berserk in the EDC headquarters, and Ringo mercilessly gunned it down despite Atari's pleas. Atari's mind went blank, and her own Autorooper went on a rampage, seriously injuring or perhaps even killing Ringo.

Ultimately, Marissa and Prime initiated another attack upon the EDC, clashing once more with Shaoshao and Hot Rod. This time, the foursome were able to settle their differences, and proceeded to team up with Atari to investigate the sinister goings-on beneath the public facade of the EDC which had become increasing apparent during their adventures. Venturing through the "[[Spiral Vagina]]" into the "[[Genital System]]" facility hidden deep in the basement of the EDC headquarters, the group discovered that much of the misfortune that had befallen them was the result of a twisted plan by Commander Amaō, who had been experimenting with Galvatron's corpse, Kiss Players and Legions in an attempt to resurrect her daughter. Amaō's daughter's soul had been infused into the Legions along with their Galvatron cells, and Amaō sought to resurrect her in the body of a Kiss Player, having selected Atari for the process. Amaō's plan was foiled when Atari fought the process, and all of the Legions and Autoroopers were fused with Galvatron, bringing all his cells together and reconstituting his body. Amaō died in the collapse of the complex, and Hot Rod destroyed the anti-electron field generator, just before Galvatron's cells were also extracted from his and the other Kiss Players' bodies; consequently, Hot Rod and Optimus Prime reverted to their original forms, with Prime returning to his state of death. Galvatron's body was blasted back into space, where it would eventually crash-land on the planet [[Thrull]].

===Kiss Players Position===
[[Image:KPP001.jpg|left|250px|thumb|We're the [[Kiss Players (singing group)|Kiss Players]] who used to be [[Kiss Player]]s in ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (manga)|Kiss Players!]]'']]

With the deactivation of the anti-electron field, Ultra Magnus and the "Cassette Players"—Sundor, Rosanna and Glit, a trio of [[Mini-Cassette|Mini-Cassettes]] that performed as a singing group, came to Earth in 2007 to reestablish peace with humanity. Marissa, Shaoshao and Atari joined the Cassette Players, and the group became known as the "Kiss Players", who performed to promote human-Transformer relations and good will. As they sang at the [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Brave Maximus]] stop of their world tour, the human trio were approached by [[Angela]], [[Star Dust]] and [[Zangetsu]], the mysterious [[Sparkbot|Sparkbots]], who instructed the girls to kiss them. When Marissa, Atari and Shaoshao complied, the Sparkbots whisked them off through time and space aboard Brave Maximus, leaving the Cassettrons behind (to go on to have unrelated adventures with [[Teletraan 15]]).

Marissa, Atari and Shaoshao reappeared in [[United States of America|America]] over twenty years earlier to witness Optimus Prime's famous battle with Megatron atop [[Sherman Dam]]. Invisible to that time period's natives, Marissa was directed by Angela to kiss Prime; when she did so, a portion of what the Sparkbots told her was the [[Allspark]] emerged from within Prime. This, the Sparkbots explained, was the Kiss Players' new mission: to gather all the fragments of the Allspark from Autobot leaders throughout time and space.

[[Image:KPSparkbot-Group.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Pretty little devils.]]
After a visit to 2010, where Shaoshao retrieved a fragment from Rodimus Prime, the team visited 2011, but arrived in the year a little too early and wound up stranded on the planet [[Quintessa]], where even their inherent cuteness could not save them from being sentenced to the [[Sharkticon (G1)|Sharkticon]] pit by the last of the [[Quintesson|Quintessons]]. Thankfully, they were saved by Optimus Prime and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]], and fled back into the timestream, with the Quintessons sucked in behind them and trapped in the rift. Moving a little further forward into 2011, they arrived at their proper time and place, allowing Atari to obtain another Allspark fragment from [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]]. Marissa proceeded to acquire another piece from [[Ginrai]], and the girls progressively hit up [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]], [[Dai Atlas (Zone)|Dai Atlas]] and several of Optimus Prime's future incarnations for more pieces.

It was when the girls turned their attention to Beast Warriors, going from one end of the timestream to the other to acquire fragments from [[Optimus Primal]], [[Lio Convoy]] and [[Big Convoy]], that things started getting strange. Soon, a mysterious, giant golden hand began to appear at the moment of Allspark emergence and steal the fragments away. After Shaoshao's attempt at getting a fragment from [[Optimus Prime (RID)|''Robots in Disguise'' Optimus Prime]] was foiled by this set of disembodied digits, the Kiss Players pursued the hand through time aboard Brave Maximus, only to have their spaceship strike the "Wall of Time", scattering the trio across dimensions. Brave Maximus crash-landed on the planet [[Master (planet)|Master]] several million years ago, while the three girls were blasted into the different eras of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] universe and faced unique dangers there. The giant golden hand soon reappeared and rescued them, bringing them back to their native universe. It was revealed that the hand belonged to the Transformer deity [[Primus]], and that the Sparkbots were, in fact, servants of [[Unicron]] that had been manipulating the Kiss Players since the beginning—in fact, they were the ones responsible for causing Galvatron to crash on Earth, and the so-called "Allspark" fragments they had instructed the Kiss Players to gather were in truth the scattered pieces of [[Angolmois|Unicron's lifeforce]]. Fleeing to prehistoric Earth, the Sparkbots succeed in resurrecting their master, but Unicron was defeated by Primus, and his lifeforce was sealed away within the planet along with the Sparkbots. Completing the circle, Primus created Brave Maximus to serve as the guardian of Unicron's lifeforce, and the Kiss Players were returned to their own time.

==Controversy==
[[Image:LegionRape1.jpg|left|180px|thumb|The phrase "Raped my childhood" seems oddly fitting.]]
When the basic concept of ''Kiss Players''—"toys with figures of cute girls"—first surfaced, the reaction from the Western fan community was generally unremarkable, amounting to little more than a bit of good-natured eye-rolling and mutterings of "Those wacky Japanese...but if that's what it takes to sell the toys...", understanding that there ''is'' a certain subset of collector who enjoys such things. Besides, such a premise had been explored before in the short-lived ''Binaltech Asterisk'' line (in which [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|the first toy in the ''Kiss Players'' series]] was originally meant to be released).

This reaction took a sharp turn with the unveiling of the ''[[Dengeki Daioh]]'' manga. Although not featuring any ''explicit'' nudity or sexual content, the comic consists of a virtually unhalting stream of images clearly designed to evoke various violent sexual situations, from the endless streams of viscous, white liquid that frequently splatter over the scantily-clad-to-nude cast members, to cowering, flush-faced, teary-eyed girls pressed against walls with their hips raised into the air, to the most (in)famous of all, the distinctive image of the [[Legion]]'s blatant penis-tongue, leaking goo from a ''goddamn urethra''. Putting the cherry on this sundae of depravity, the manga employs an art style that uses proportions specifically and deliberately designed to make the vast majority of its female characters appear as though they are underage (despite the fiction identifying them as being at least old enough to drive). Subsequent translations of the radio dramas also revealed that the show's dialogue was ''loaded'' with sexual double-entendres, ranging from humor-based (Optimus Prime deriving pleasure from Marissa rubbing the rim of his gas tank) to grotesque examples blatantly evocative of rape (a shrunken Autorooper forces its way into Atari's mouth and makes her swallow it, followed by her begging it not to "move too roughly inside" her).

Reactions ran the gamut from outright disgust to comedic derision, with most fans agreeing that the transformation of a children's toyline into [[wikipedia:Lolicon|borderline-pedophilia]] was a "[[Ruined FOREVER|bad thing]]". There was not a small number of people, who claimed that there was absolutely nothing wrong with such a thing, and that everyone else simply wasn't understanding it was a "cultural thing,"—"it" being...the enjoyment of rape imagery, apparently. This, of course, is in defiance of the fact that several ''Japanese'' fans were themselves openly decrying ''Kiss Players,'' fearing that American fans would think that this was somehow accepted as "normal" in Japan. The line's writer/designer, [[Yūki Ōshima]], even admitted that he crafted the series in this manner because he wanted to "make people's jaws drop". Mission accomplished, it would seem.

Possibly as a result of the majority of fans trying to distance themselves from a fiction that is generally regarded as distasteful, combined with the general inaccessibility of the radio show to an English audience (no pictures!), there is an astonishingly minimal awareness of the specific details of the (horrifying, yet darkly interesting) ''Kiss Players'' storyline in the fandom.

==Notes==
* The official logo for the series says "Kiss Play" in Japanese text and "Kiss Players" beneath it in English. To avoid confusion, the English title is used here.

*''Kiss Players'' is notable—if headache-inducing—for consolidating several previously disparate ''Transformers'' stories into one. Timelines officially published with its products incorporated not only [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] events, but also those of other time-and-space-bending Japanese G1 spin-offs, ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'', ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Binaltech]]'' and ''Binaltech Asterisk'', and obscure stories like ''[[Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate|The Battle of the Star Gate]]'' and the details of numerous [[e-Hobby]] stories and [[bio]]s into one massive chronicle.

*Most notably of all, ''Kiss Players'' appears to have been the first affirmation of the recent [[retcon]] that Takara has been propagating in several official timelines—that ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' (or ''Car Robots'', to be precise) is part of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity. The storyline links Brave Maximus to the Japanese incarnation of Generation 1 Fortress Maximus, offers an actual origin for Brave Maximus that links him to the story of ''[[Beast Wars II (franchise)|Beast Wars II]]'', and explains why Unicron's lifeforce was sealed within Earth in that series.

==External links==
* [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/kiss/index.html Official Kiss Players site]

* [http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/ Kiss Players story summaries on Toy Vey]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Kiss Players (franchise)}}
[[Category:Generation 1 franchises]]
[[Category:Japanese franchises]]
[[Category:Kiss Players| ]]

Talk:Insignia

2012-04-29T09:35:08Z

67.6.96.48: /* Rename Prime section Aligned? */

__TOC__

There's such an AWESOME buried assumption in a section called 'Known Faction Symbols.' This whole idea that there are UNKNOWN faction symbols too. The idea that there is a BODY to this story beyond what's been written, the idea that it has a form BEFORE it's written... is facinating. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel the Transtech faction symbols belong here. The line never happened. The events after BM have been well established- Transtech was not it. TFU stupidity aside- they are not all Autobots and Decepticons now.

And I have to ask- there was an Arachnoid faction-symbol?

Yea there was a screencap in Lone Maximal's faction symble thread b4 the allspark went down. [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 15:27, 4 April 2006 (PDT)

I think it's fine to include them, just with an info note that they're unused.

Speaking of rare symbols I really want the 5 Predacon symbols from IDW Beast Wars to be up here too, but should they go under BW PRedacon or be their own thing?

Also there should be pics of both the regular Con symbol and the three-pointed Cartoon version.

Oh and we should look through DW/IDW art to see if there are any other unnamed symbols there on buildings or anything. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we want to include pics of the diffrent variations of the faction cymbols that appeared on the toy packageing? I have the symbols from the top of the old Tech Spec archive saved on my PC and found images for the Blendtron and Commando symbols. I don't have the Cybertron symbols though.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like both, frankly. My source for the G2 Autobot is distressingly low-resolution (I consider anythign under 400px wide low reolution) and I'm not entiely sure my blendtron synbol is 100% right. (there 1 or two edges I couldnt' tell if they were suppsoed to be rounded or squared off.)-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The G2 Decepticon symbol looks nothing whatsoever like Clench besides sharing that diamond-shaped forehead crest, and it's missing arguably the most distinguishing feature of Clench's face - the triangular (point-up) mouthplate. In my opinion, the G2 symbol is clearly a stylized version of the G1 Decepticon symbol. Similarly, there is essentially no similarity between the G2 Autobot symbol and Pyro - the G2 Autobot symbol couldn't much more clearly be Optimus Prime.

Also, why is the CR Combatron insignia under "Beast Era"? `[[User:LV|LV]] 17:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd need to go back to my G2 issues to check, but I question the validity of suggesting that the G2 Decepticon and Cybertronian symbols are any different. (The only distinction shown here is color, anyway) I also question the simplified versions of the symbols used in the cartoon as "symbols" in their own right, but it seems that I've already been outvoted on that count. The only thing I ''would'' ask for is some source text, especially for the more obscure symbols. If they're going to be here, we need to know where they come from.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I totally disagree with the note that the G1 Decepticon symbol is based on Soundwave. This is a myth that has perpetuated for years, but has no basis in fact.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
: Well, technically, it's based on the Decepticon symbol looking just like Soundwave's toy head. But the note is gone for the moment. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
::Walky, I know you've got a good eye. Maybe you're seeing something I don't. But that's just it. To me, Soundwave's toy's head looks NOTHING like the Decepticon symbol. I've seen folks say this for years, but I'm just not seeing it....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 22:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
:::http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/itswalky/soundwavedecepticonsymbol.jpg
:::There's some obvious correlation here. But nothing I can say with absolute certainty, so the note is down until further notice. But, damn, the Decepticon symbol does look like it was based on an abstraction of Soundwave's noggin. The crest, the horns, the shape of the face, everything. I think Soundwave's cartoon face is distracting you. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
::::No, I'm thinking toy-face. (Thanks for the side-by-side, incidentally). Still, I don't think I'd say the Decepticon symbol is "based on" Soundwave, any more than I'd say that there's a generic similarity of shape. But we're mincing minutia at this point. Thanks for indulging me.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::I believe Floro Dery mentioned in an interview that the faction symbols were based on abstractions of faces done by another artist. I also put it to you that the Autobot insignia is probably an abstraction of Prowl's toy face. Unfortunately we have no CONCRETE evidence for the sources of the insignias -- other than Dery's comments. --[[User:Jhiaxus|Jhiaxus]] 11:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no "Seacon space pirate" sigil. A comical skull-and-crossbones on the sail does not a sigil make. The toy packaging gives them the same purple insect-head Predacon sigil every other badguy in the series gets. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, someoen put the Blendtron symbol under Unicron in G1. When was the Blendtron symbol used outside of Neo? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

E-hobby Overcharge [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 02:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
:But didn't we decide to default to the line of origin unless there was a commanding reason to use another? Also, we tend not to link things multiple times in the same article, so I see no reason why the Blendtron symbol should show up twice here. Methinks someone's been more than a tad overzealous....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

==Shattered Glass Nightbeat's Symbol==
If we have a section for the Shattered Glass faction symbols, shouldn't Nightbeat's be there, too? I know he's an (evil) Autobot, but he has that unique Autobot logo with the dagger on his hood.

==Article title==

I recently moved this article to correct the second capitalized word. However, I am unsure as to whether to move it again and remove the plural. Most article names are singular, even for something like [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicon]]. However, one of the points of this article is to describe and show many faction symbols. This sort of implies a plural title to me. So... I'm conflicted. Does anybody have an opinion? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that if this were an article describing the general signifigance of a faction symbol, that might be appropriate. But this is a list of Faction Symbols. The list is inherenly plural, there's like 30 of 'em. 'Faction Symbol,' describing the role and importance of saction symbols in general might be a seperate article- this is a list. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

==The 5 Predacon symbols==
I want to add the 5 symbols from IDW Beast Wars, but I have a concern. There is no cannonical evidence that they are actually faction symbols. We never see anyone useing them. Right now, the only thing we know about them is that they were used as wall decoration.

Or do we just assume they ''are'' faction symbols? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 15:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

:Add them. If we decide they go somewhere else (and I think they probably do, likely the Predacon faction page, or maybe the Predacon sub-group, I dunno...) we'll move them.
:Reminder, you can find the rest of... uh.... Ramhorn's partially obscurred symbol in the pencil-sketch previews to Beast Wars #1 that appeared in Infiltration. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
::Headstrong. Ramhorn is the Autobot rhino cassette. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 19:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

:::The exception that prooves the rule. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
::::....what? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 01:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

==The 5 Predacon symbols - Whoopsie...wrong file names guys==
Two of these emblems were switched. Razorclaw and Rampage's emblems were assigned to the wrong name. I've fixed this in the actual gallery of the emblems with an edit, but the names of the images are still swapped.[[User:Sidecutter|Sidecutter]]
:Why the heck would Rampage's emblem sport a mane and Razorclaw's not sport a mane? The comic they appear in even show Razorclaw's maned symbol as being the most prominently displayed. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 15:31, 19 September 2010 (EDT)
::If you actualy look at the emblems being displayed, that was exactly my point, but someone has made it incorrect again. Razorclaw's orange, maned symbol that matches his beast head is listed with *Rampage's* name. Rampage's red, non-maned symbol, which matches his beast head, is listed with *Razorclaw's* name. The symbols also have the wrong file names, with Razroclaw's symbol named "Rampage Symbol.png" and Rampage's symbol named "Razorclaw Symbol.png". Here is how it was displayed before I fixed it the first time, and this time:
::Now as far as I know (I may simply not know how), I can't change the file names. Therefore, I can't fix it that way. But if you look at the page now that I've corrected the gallery again, you'll see that even though the filenames appear "wrong" when you look at the list to edit it, the pictures are actually correct now.[[User:Sidecutter|Sidecutter]] 16:09, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::It looks to me that the red one is the guy with a mane. The yellow one doesn't look like it has a mane. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:19, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::I don't see how you can see it that way. The shapes of the faces are wrong for the supposed character they represent. The color of each one is also matched to the character it should be (orange/yellow for Razorclaw's beast head, red for Rampage's). Compare each emblem to the toy on TFU.info and it's very clear that the filenames on these are wrong. http://www.tfu.info/1986/Decepticon/Razorclaw/razorclaw.htm http://www.tfu.info/1986/Decepticon/Rampage/rampage.htm [[User:Sidecutter|Sidecutter]] 16:23, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::I've also just gone through the trade to see the originals. The red one shown there might be more feasible as Razorclaw, if still the wrong color. However, if that is the case, the rendition we have here is a very bad one, because the shapes of the symbol parts and the proportions of each part are WAY off from the comic. It's a much narrower symbol here. [[User:Sidecutter|Sidecutter]] 16:44, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::I've definitely gotta go with Sidecutter here, the orange one is definitely the one with a mane. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:51, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::I'm with Walky, the yellow one has cheek tufts NOT a mane. Thus it is a tiger. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:52, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, also with Walky. The red one is the one with a mane, I don't know how you can look at it any other way. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:54, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::But Rampage doesn't even HAVE cheek tufts. Also, his beast-mode head is red. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:56, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::What does the color have to do with it? Divebomb isn't purple. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:57, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Doesn't change the fact that Rampage doesn't have cheek tufts. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:05, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::None of them look exactly like the symbols. They are stylized versions of the animals, not the toys. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:14, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::Razorclaw looks nearly EXACTLY like the orange symbol. Seriously, have a look at it and his beast-mode head. I honestly don't see how it could be anyone else. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:20, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Really? The orange one doesn't say "lion" to me. I think the main problem is the red logo doesn't really look like a lion or a tiger. I'm not sure what that's supposed to be. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:09, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I see what you're saying now about the orange one looking like Razorclaw - but that's because you're looking at the two points at the top of the head as if they're the corners of the toy's mane, when they're ''ears''. It's not supposed to look like the toy, it's supposed to look like the ''animal''. The red one's sporting an all-around mane, not one broken up into mechanical toyetic points and chunks. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:25, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Don't tell me what I'm looking at the ears as. At no point did I think they were anything other than ears. And the red one has nothing even remotely resembling a mane. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:03, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
I'd have to dig out the issue in question, but I'm not sure if I remember them ''being'' in color.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:09, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
:They are in color. I didn't pay much attention to the colors of the other three, but the two being debated are in the colors shown here (or a close variant, allowing for lighting, etc).[[User:Sidecutter|Sidecutter]] 18:15, 26 September 2010 (EDT)

==Miscellaneous issues==
===Robots in Diguise Commando===
When was that term used? What's the difference between a RiD Commando and a RiD Decepticon?

::I'm assuing this is a placeholder spot for the Car Robots Destronger symbol, which was a green, upside-down G2 Autobot sigil. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

===Bot/Con Symbols in RiD/UT sections?===
Should the Autobot and Decepticon (and Predacon in RiD) symbols also be listed in the Robots in Disguise amd Unicron Trilogy sections? It might be misleading if only unique symbols are listed in those sections. "Are Minicons and Powerlinx the only factions in the Unicron Trilogy?"
===Organization===
The G1 section seems to be vaguely organized chronologically, but Beast Wars doesn't make sense to me. Since certain chronological listings might be debatable (Ancient Autobot and Ancient Transformer: who comes first, etc), I propose to make each section alphabetical. 
Generation 1 
Autobot 
Autobot (Ancient) 
Autobot (The War Within) 
Decepticon 
etc.

Also, why does G2 get a seperate sction, but Beast Machines does not?

===''Factions''?===
There is no basis for calling the five IDW Beast Wars symbols "factions", and the Energon Powerlinx symbols are not factions. But I want to keep a page with all these symbols. Rename article to just "Symbols"? Or maybe that would open it up too much. Just a rambling thought.

Don't want to make any changes without talking about it. Thanks for listening. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 01:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
--[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 01:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

:I think it's fine titled "faction symbols" but also inlcuding symbols that aren't strictly of "factions," with appropriate notations about whether a symbol is a variant of a faction symbol or just something faction symbol-esque that's close enough for inclusion, etc. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 01:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

::They might move if we get enough other signage and symbols. (We have, for instance, two seperate Cybertronian medical symbols, one Autobot and one Decepticon.)
::You mgith argue that if we have a page liek thism we maybe should have a much-clearer 'factions' page that, as Crockcrikey suggests, list which factions appear in which series, makign this page just abouth the SYMBOLS. As it's it's kinda dual-purpose, providing quick bio's about the faction in addition to the symbols and variants themselves. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
::In that case, where should things like, say, Sideways's split-down-the-middle insignia from his packaging and the Maximal/Vehicon blend found on the Beast Changer toy go, if anywhere at all? On the other hand, if it stays here and keeps gathering up symbols that aren't strictly "faction" symbols, somebody ought to add the planet symbols from Cybertron/Galaxy force--[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 22:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

== Um, guys, you forgot something... ==

Not to be a nudge, but the normal G1 Decepticon symbol isn't actually pictured in the article anywhere except in the pic that has it inserted in the cobra insignia. Also, a pic of the "three-pointed" cartoon version might help in showing exactly where the difference lies. --[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 22:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyone going to throw in Dreamwave's alternate Unicron faction symbol? I remember it being used for the MTMTE profiles for Nemesis Prime and maybe Sideways, although I don't have it on hand. I feel that it's required.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 07:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

==Team Ironhide==
Dunno if we want to include this, since it's just an abstraction of Energon Ironhide's head, but there's a good shot of it [http://www.fantofan.jp/news/video/superlink456.JPG here]. Plus, [http://www.fantofan.jp/news/video/superlink4510.JPG here] and [http://www.fantofan.jp/news/video/superlink444.JPG here]. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

==Planet symbols...==
I'm... not really sure about these as "faction symbols". I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

:See the discussion above ("'''''Factions''?'''") for more input on the inclusion of non-faction symbols. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 16:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

::I think the consensus was- "Wait until we have anough non-faction symbols here to justify splittign them off into their own page." We're getting close, but that'll necessitate a long, unpleasant discussion about what is and isn't a faction symbol. (For instance, I think the IDW Quint symbol is the US Quint faction symbol- just like we have American and Japanese Unicron-allied symbols.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

:::IDW Quint symbol? I hope you don't mind me asking where that's shown, out of curiousity. -[[User:Tindalos|Tindalos]] 19:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== Hmm... ==

[[Image:Optimus symbol.png|100px]] [[Image:Maximal symbol.png|100px]]

...probably just my imagination. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 16:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

== G1 "Cartoon" vs "Comic" symbols ==
OK, time for an opinion poll: Should there be pix of both the "Cartoon" and "Comic" versions of the G1 Bot & Con symbols? I would say so, and several of you expressed the same opinion in the above discussions. Earlier today I added the cartoon Bot symbol and the comic Con symbol thereby completing the "pairs", but not soon after, the comic versions were removed. I have since replaced them, not to rebuff that editor, but based on the reasoning that if we can have five different colored Powerlinx symbols (?!), why would we '''not''' have both distinct variations of the two '''''main''''' symbols. Thoughts, anyone? [[User:Evil-yuusha|Evil-yuusha]] 03:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:Well, your cartoon Decepticon symbol doesn't look like the cartoon Decepticon symbol, for one. I'm guessing that was part of the cause for the reversion. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

::Indeed. There are different Powerlinx symbols depicted because those are all legitimately distinct symbols which were intended to be legitimately distinct symbols, and they all *mean different things*. The Autobot/Decepticon symbols in the cartoon/comic/toyline are all the same symbol but rendered differently due to media format. We are NOT going to have separate entries for every single mis-render of the same symbol design. That's absurd.
::As Derik pointed out, what you had uploaded wasn't even the "cartoon versions" of those symbols! Those are just the fancy painted versions thereof that were on toy packages, some Marvel Comics covers, and, of course, the toys. I reworked all of that because it was ''inaccurate.'' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:::It ''might'' be reasonable to include the cartoon version of the Decepticon symbol, since it had the whole triple-point deal going. But as far as I know there's no equivalent variation in the Autobot symbol. And, as stated, the painted Decepticon symbol is '''NOT''' the cartoon's variant Decepticon symbol. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 14:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

::::Well thank you for pointing out how "absurd" my reasoning is Walky, its certainly more informative than your previous Post Summary of "Argh". I think some clarification may be needed, as there seems to be confusion (very possibly on my part).
::::This is one of the two images I posted:
::::[[Image:symbol_autobot_dx_edit.jpg|40px]]Is this what you all would deem "cartoon" or "comic"? Or if neither, why?
::::[[Image:symbol_decept_reg.png|35px]] This is the other image I posted. Cartoon? Comic? Neither?
::::Seeing as how I posted one version of the Bot symbol and the OTHER version of the Con symbol (the two that were missing at the time), how can I be wrong in both cases?

::::And just for the record, when I re-posted what I perceive to be the "comic" versions, I replaced [[Image:Autobot symbol.png|40px]] (which was what was previously posted), with [[Image:Symbol_autobot_reg.png|40px]], simply because I thought it looked nicer. [[User:Evil-yuusha|Evil-yuusha]] 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

::::: That first Autobot symbol only appeared on Hasbro packaging from '84 to '86, Japanese packaging, cartoon scene bumpers, and some comic covers. The Decepticon symbol in the cartoon generally had a 3rd spike on the center top piece due to the beveling on the "packaging" symbol being misinterpreted. We're not going to have a picture of every interpertation of every symbol, lest we have a pic of the changes the packaging symbol when through in the G1 line, the different color borders in G2, the slightly different shapes from RID, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Classics, and the movie. Diffrent styles does not equal a new faction symbol. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:::::Also, that white-border Autobot sigil looks blurry. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::Blurry, eh? I thought it was just my contacts. =) I agree that variation does not a new symbol make, but to me it seemed significant to show the two '''distinctly''' different "variations" of these two symbols. (And I'm not talking about "third point crest cartoon" version, or what have you.) The 3-D, glossy, transition-color "deluxe-looking" (if you will) version appearing on packaging, toon bumpers, etc to my knowledge (and i'm sure someone will correct me if im wrong) was never used on an actual '''figure''', nor did characters in the comics and/or cartoon bear sigils with this appearance. It more or less had media-only usage, correct? In contrast, the 2-D, matte, solid-color "plain-looking" version was the type used on the toys, as well as typically being seen on animated/drawn characters.

::::::Was there ever melding of these two styles? A 3-D glossy symbol with solid colors? or a 2-D matte symbol that transitioned in color? If there was, then I humbly retract my previous ramblings and apologize to the community at large (especially Walky, who seems keen on shooting down whatever i do anyway. And yes, I am aware of the differences between the powerlink colors, but I think my point has validity nonetheless). In any event i do admit to being confused as to exaclty what the "cartoon version" of the Con symbol was in reference to (thank you FortMax). =P

:::::::But if I am correct in saying that there is a '''''measure of deliniation''''' between these two styles, and not just a simple case of "variation" (which is essentially what the "three point crest" is, and you guys seem to think that's worthy of mention), then at the very least I think they should be shown as a footnote of some type to the page, perhaps following the Unused symbols. [[User:Evil-yuusha|Evil-yuusha]] 18:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

::::::All of the G1 merchandise that had a symbol not taken from boxart used the logo symbols. The one exception is the marvel US comics, but that was due to the low-tech printing methods used. Plus, whatever the border shaps or solidness of the color, it's still recognizable as the Autobot symbol. The only time we would need a cartoon version on this page is when said sigil only appears in the cartoon. Plus, the only fictional apperences of the package style sigils (that I know of) are in scene bumpers, commercial bumpers, and titles, none of which actually happen in-universe, and the solid colored symbol appeared on the toys before the cartoon or comics were released.

:An example of the cartoon Decepticon symbol might be a good idea though. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

== TWW Predacon and LSC symbols ==

Did the TWW Predacons (Starscream's group) or the Lightning Strike Coalition (Grimlocks group) have their own faction symbols? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
: Not that I'm aware of. And they both continue to wear their respective Con/Bot logos on themselves. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
::Although I'm pretty sure they've started being the standard symbols instead of the TWW ones by then. -[[User:LV|LV]] 01:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

== Ancient Transformer Symbol ==

Ok, whoever called shannanigans, explain your objection... I admit It's been a long time since I've looked at some DW issues but the Anceint unified faction bit seems to jive with what I remember being said. Anyone who's looked at things recently clarrify? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
:The ancient faction symbol appeared on the Vector Sigma room, the Archives (IIRC) and the golden Disk room on Paradron. It's ''ancient'', and it has nothing to do with Shockwave. Shockwave welded a blank plate over his faction symbol- he didn't create a new hybrid symbol. There ''was'' no Hybrid symbol for Shockwav'es reign on Cybertron.
:So in short, the nature of my objection is... it's wrong. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

::So, uh... fix it? Why call shenanigans instead? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
:::'cuz I didn't want to be the one to fix it, being next-deep in other edits at the time. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

== Change page title to "Insignia"? ==

This page hasn't really ever been limited to faction symbols, so I think a move is in order. Anyone disagree? [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
:Disagree, because how would I ever find it then? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
:: DEAR GOD, CHANGE IT NOW. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

::: :~( -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

:: It would unfortunately redirect. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

==Ancient Decepticon and BWII Seacons==

"Ancient Decepticon" has been here a long time with no symbol. Does an ancient Decepticon symbol exist? Also, yea or nay on BWII Seacons symbol? (Unless someone can find a better image of [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Seacons_bw.jpg that flag], it's moot anyway.) --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 20:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
:I think someone had a seacon skull up at one point- or at least there was a discussion about its variations...
:I've removed ancient decepticon- AFAIK, that's a relic of an unofficial reprolabel set that decided Shockwave's funky symbol was the counterpart of the ancient Autobot symbol- in defiance of all context. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
===That picture isn't even the right symbol===
From the BWII movie
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9069/spacepirateseaconsignalao1.jpg - 85.195.123.24 20:50, 22 May 2007

:::Ooh, that's '''much''' clearer than the VCD I have. Is there an new not-centosaur encode floating around? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
::::That's an excellent image. Now what's this about variations? P.S. 85, don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes ~ And why not just get a user name. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 01:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

==Shockwave insignia==
Can someone put this up? I'm pretty sure it was reused semi-recently, either in a DW/IDW book or as one of Overcharge's labels... right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 20:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
:You're probably thinking of the Reprolabels set. It hasn't shown up anywhere else official, that I've heard of. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 21:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
::Hey, now it HAS showed up! TakaraTomy's [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html World of the Transformers], Episode 4 has given it a name. It's the "Cybertron Guard" insignia. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:::I KNOW! I just noticed that! I uploaded it once a long time ago, but it was deleted. I can re-upload it this evening, if someone else can't get to it before then. Inversely proportional: my excitement about this symbol - my social life --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 16:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
::::[[Image:shocksymb.jpg]] --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 16:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

== Megatron's symbol? ==

I don't think this is specifically associated with Megatron. It's also on [[Emirate Xeon]]'s forehead in [[Transformers: The War Within|The War Within]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
:Also, the "Ratbat Symbol" depicts insignia seen on ''many'' Transformers associated with the Senate in Origin. In the first issue, all the ship crew for the Senator's vessel have it on their foreheads.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 16:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

::You'll get no argument from me. I had a feeling my descriptives weren't 100% accurate. So, if you know stuff that I don't about these symbols, please add it. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[[Image:Emirate Xeon symbol.png|100px]][[Image:Megatron Origin Symbol.png|100px]]

Really I'd still venture that they're the same symbol, the difference being that Figueroa tends to be a bit more precise than Milne. Now, what I'm about to say is pure ''speculation'' and thus probably doesn't deserve to be in the article itself, but I'd wager it's a regional insignia that has to do with Kokular or [[Kaon]], as Emirates are regional governors. Alternately, I suppose Megatron's gladiatorial medallion might be an alteration or perversion of the Kokular/Kaon symbol, showing its continuing evolution into the Decepticon insignia. But I'll let others put their two cents in.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 18:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

:From page to page, the Megatron: Origin symbol changes a tad, but certain elements of Xeon's symbol never manifest in Megatron's: the separate crest, the nose/slice down the middle, the cheeks, and Xeon's horns go down, Megatron's go up. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 19:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
::Well, looks like we got some clarification in Origin 3. The insignia is a team designation, and it's on a chain because team rosters are not fixed. Megatron later has the Decepticon insignia on a chain, which to me says that the prior insignia was for Clench's team which Megatron took over.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 20:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

== Cybertron Security Forces ==

New insignia for them in Origin #3, if you've seen it. Displayed on the flags over the coffins and on the headstone.

Man, this series is just like ''delicious candy'' regarding new insignia.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 20:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:Yeah, I love it. It's like insignia Christmas this week! --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 22:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
::[[Image:Security symbol Megatron Origin.png|100px]] 
::Well, here it is. Before it's added to the article, I wanted to be sure of what it should be called. Is "Cybertron Security Forces" what they're officially called the comic? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 22:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Issue #3 is saying "Autobot Security" but I'll have to get home before I can compare it to the prior two and see if they're called that throughout.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Whose funeral? I feel like the yellow should be the same yellow as Decimus's symbol. (Or rather, Decimus's symbol should be the same yellow as this.)

Also, I think the page is getting populated enough that we should start some long-term thinking about reorganization. Either by creating a faction symbol page in addition to the insignia page, or switching to a combo list/gallery format lie that seen in the [[holomatter]] article. No need for quick decisions, I'm just throwing it out there. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
:[[Fastback (G1)|Fastback]] and [[Bumper (G1)|Bumper]]'s funeral. They received an official state funeral presided over by [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]], as described in [[Megatron Origin issue 3|the summary I recently wrote]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
::Oh, I didn't realize it was out yet. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
:RE: yellow. Comparing the colors, Decimus' is more of a gold in the comic, and the funeral flags on the coffins are more yellow. (I'm assuming the flags are the "real" color of the symbol, as opposed to the monochromatic plaque [http://markerguru.deviantart.com/art/megatron03-sample-06-64189148]) --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 00:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I forgot to log in before doing it, but I double-checked all three issues and it is referred to in two separate issues as "Security Services HQ" and "Autobot Security Headquarters." I've split the difference in their insignia entry on the page, and am now moving to correct the reference in my issue synopsis.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 01:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

== Reorg ==

I've done a slight reorg of the sections and split G1 up by history/subcontinuity. Hope that helps somewhat.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 23:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
:I'd say the page is starting to finally come into its own regarding ease of access and information density. What do you guys think? Is the gallery format helping?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 19:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
::Yes. I think the content maybe needs some rewriting to fit it better... but that'll correct itself in time. This format is 100% better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

== Redirects Please? ==

Don't know how to do redirects myself. Could someone else create redirects from [[Symbol]] and [[Badge]] to this article? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 21:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

: Done. Redirects are easy. Type #REDIRECT then space, then the double-bracket-link to the page you want to redirect to. Or just click [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Symbol&action=edit here] and see what it looks like. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 22:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Animated insignia. ==

First, we can't use them if they're that small.

Second, what we've seen of the toys indicates the insignia aren't new at all, so what you may be seeing in the teaser art/videos can be attributed to artistic style rather than changes to the symbols.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 22:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

== Cobybot insignia ==

What do you guys think? I mean sure, it's just an Autobot symbol with two wrenches, but it's still probably worth adding, right? [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] 16:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== The Decepticon sigil's colour ==

In some of the shows the Decepticon sigil is clearly blue. Yet is purple on the toys from those shows. Does anyone know why?

== Animated - Team Chaar ==

Should the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Blackoutanimated.jpg Team Chaar symbol] be here?
Is it even a separate symbol, or just Blackout's custom (a relic from the Great War maybe?)? -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 07:23, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
:Nobody else from Team Chaar seems to have that symbol, so it's likely that it's exclusive to Blackout. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 07:54, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

=="Shields"?==
So some of the licensed material (i.e., the [[Candy Mix]] refers to the insignia as "shields." Are there any other materials that give an official-type name to the faction logos? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:32, 1 November 2009 (EST)

==Machine Wars==
The MW Decepticon insignia is noticeably different from G1, with very rounded sad-looking eyes and fuzzy indistinct outer margins. It looks like somebody at Hasbro circa 1996 tried to re-create the G1 logos from very poor or possibly even bootlegged source material.
Two questions:
 -Are there comparable differences between the G1 and MW Autobots? 
-Are these differences significant enough to warrant inclusion here? 
--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:37, 20 April 2010 (EDT)

== Energon Unicron ==

The Unicron insignia in Energon section is not only appeared in the Energon cartoon as a special sequence, but literally on TakaraTomy's official Armada(Micron Legend) site and the toy's Japanese package as well.
Shouldn't it be considered as the insignia for Trilogy, at least of TakaraTomy version?

== Orange Unicron insignia dissapearance ==

<s>I noticed the Herald of Unicron insignia is erroneously shown as the red blendtron insignia. Is the original orange version lost? That seems to be the most likely possibility as I cannot find it anywhere. How can such a big mistake go unnoticed for so long? Have you all forgotten how to use photoshop to recolor the red one orange?</s> Ignore all of that. I fixed it already. --[[User:LokitheGrammarNazi|LokitheGrammarNazi]] 14:50, 27 September 2010 (EDT)

== Tarantulas Insignia ==

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8b/OptimalSituation_Tarantulas_insignia.jpg

Should we include this?
[[User:DinoFreakUSA|DinoFreakUSA]] 16:57, 2 November 2010 (EDT)

== Movie Symbols problem ==
Wasn't sure where else to put this, but this seems an appropriate enough place. I don't know if it's just on my end, or if I missed something important, but the faction symbols on all Movie/ROTF character pages seem to have become identical to the G1 equivalents. I first noticed it on the [[Decepticon]] page when I noticed that the same symbol appears twice. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:06, 4 December 2010 (EST)

== Original designer? ==

Who designed the original Autobot and Decepticon insignia? I mean in the real world. With all the behind-the-scenes material I've seen, I never heard a word about it.
:I'm sure [[Bob Budiansky]] must know. Was it ever said in an interview with him?--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 04:17, 7 January 2011 (EST)

==Titan Magazines question==
The [[Decepticon Heartland]] page shows a building with a symbol that looks like G1 Shockwave's Cybertron Guard symbol. Does it stand for anything in the Titan comics, or is it just an Easter egg? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:26, 24 May 2011 (EDT)

== Rename Prime section Aligned? ==

There's only one symbol in that heading, and it appears to be mainly from Exodus (and some online game or something) and has never appeared on Prime, so it's sort of confusing that the section it's in is called Prime. If Aligned isn't a good name for the section, maybe Exodus? I don't really care what it's called, so long as we can agree it's not really Prime, despite being from the same continuity family or whatever.--[[Special:Contributions/76.226.116.97|76.226.116.97]] 21:27, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
:If you do, please move the Rescue Bots symbol there. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:36, 29 April 2012 (EDT)
:Agree on move. -Derik