MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-10-01T18:50:58Z

68.33.114.43: /* Gildo */

Somebody want to cite a source for this MLP thing? Otherwise, I call bullshit and deletion. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:It's a fun observation, and probably nto intentional. Feel free to bullshit away. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm 90+% sure that in some episode, Darkscream complains that he can't even fly, just glide. Thing is, that may have been a fansub of CR... agghh. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 01:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

== Gildo ==

I know spelling wise that is what it should be, but in my opinion with the past articles of japanese original characters' names. Glide would sound more accurate as his name, rather than Gildo. Hell, it sounds quite close to a very poor spoken version of the hiragana. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 23:59, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
:Glide would be guraido (グライド) not girudo (ギルド). --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 00:01, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::True, however the japanese language has several different ways of saying the same word, even if it's another language's word. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 12:48, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Well a Google search is quick to reveal that there is no such thing as using "ギルドー" for "glide". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:15, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

Heck, the guy above saying "Dark Scream" complaining how he can't fly only glide, would strengthen my argument. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 12:54, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:I don't see how that proves a point any. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:15, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::Didn't say it proved a point, I said it strengthened it. TFs usually have names attributed to ther peronality or abilities, or lack there of, so a TF who complains he can only Glide not fly. It would make sense that his name is Glide. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 13:56, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Maybe, but his name is still not Glide, it's Gildo (or maybe Gildor?). It's possible it's supposed to be another one of those weird Japanese puns, but his name still isn't Gildo. Besides, TF names in Japan often have nothing to do with abilities or personality. What do the names "Killbison", "Leozack" or "Guiltaur", for example, tell us about the abilities or personalities of those TFs? -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 14:22, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::True, true. I'll admit there are names out there from the japanese choices that don't go with that theme. However looking at most of the Car Robots cast, most have names derived from actual words (ex. Mach Alert, Speedbreaker, Indy Heat, etc). Also, I do not know how much experience you have with japanese names from anime. But I have seen a few who don't use the standard hiragana translations for the word. And we all know mistakes happen that don't get caught before being released.
::::Point is I think it should be Glide, maybe it could be considered to put an addition on "Dark Scream"'s page that his japanese name might be Glide, along with the straight translation.[[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 14:45, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Dude, I don't think you get how this works. This is not a "translation" issue. ギ is Gi, ル is ru and ド is do. That's just the end of the story! It's not a question of translating the world "glide" and screwing it up - they've explicitly chosen those syllables. If they wanted it to be "Glide," then it would be a four-character word sounding out "Gu-ra-i-do". And it's not. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:54, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Uh, you know that this is Katakana and not Hiragana, right? How ironic.. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 14:56, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
Oh I guess you're right mazenoise. Sorry, its been awhile since I was looking into the proper terminology of the language. Thank you for correcting me.
As for McFeely, I realize that's what the characters sound like. But Im not saying it is this site's translation fault, Im saying the japanese creator of the series mucked up on the translation of glide. Sorry, that I did not make my point out correctly. Also, I had some help and found out that Girudo translated into english is actually Guild. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 15:13, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:His name is actually spelled Girudō (ギルドー), which doesn't mean anything. In fact, I'd argue that his Japanese name should be spelled Gildor ([[Jarugar|there is precedent]]). -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 15:23, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yes, that is how it is spelled phoenetically. But I do believe you are wrong, for it does have a meaning[http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=girudo&WC=none&FG=w&BG=b&S=26]. 15:40, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Don't think you understood that: his name is Girudō, with a long "o" sound at the end, which is a different word from Girudo and obviously doesn't mean the same thing (it means nothing). -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 15:45, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::The site doesnt show the difference between long and short vowels. Also I have another site that corraborates the previous one's [http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary?word=girudo&type=romaji&search=Normal]. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 15:55, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary?word=%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89%E3%83%BC&type=kata&search=Normal Not quite.] You forgot the long vowel. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:36, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Okay, you have proven me wrong on that Detour. However, my resolve that it is the creator's intent to be Glide is steadfast. Actually Mazenoise's comment about it being -or, might mean he was going for Glider. So the translatioin of him not flying but gliding would make a bit more sense that way. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 16:46, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::It's still pure straw-grasping because his name is Gildo/Gildor. His name doesn't have to make sense, Gushar's didn't either, and only half of Gelshark's name made sense. To say nothing of Valdigus/Baldigus, Dangar, Dolrailer, Hepter and Greejeeber. The only Car Robots villains whose name made some aspect of sense have been Gas Skunk, Gigatron, Black Convoy and Shuttler. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:00, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Dude? No. If it was "Glider", the Katakana would be グライダー (''Guraidā''). ''Girudō'' (gee-roo-dohh or gee-r-dohh) is not and will never be a recognized transliteration of "Glider". (While we're at it, "Gildor" doesn't work, as that appears to sound like "Gilder". Word-ending "or", "ar", and "er" are all used for /ər/, which is represented in Katakana as ''ā''.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:52, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Okay, Im not doubting everyone's (members of this website) ability to translate katakana and reasoning for how it should be. I do believe that the creator didn't know how to translate it properly though. As a side note, Interrobang and Chris McFeely, in my personal opinion, using the noun dude as a starter to any conversation makes you sound ignorant. But that is my opinion. And don't think I'm calling you dumb because that's not what it means. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 02:20, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Translate ''what''? Japanese use english words '''all the time'''. They may mangle their sentence structure every now and again and again (and again and again and again) but they tend to get the words right, especially when they put em down in katakana, since that's, y'know, based on the ''phonetic pronounciation'' and all. Dude. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:31, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::''Dude.'' And your opinion on what the intention of the name is, despite repeated explanations otherwise, makes you stupid. And that certainly isn't "my personal opinion". [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:30, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hey, dude, even if the creator didn't know how to translate Glide, we're still listing his name as Gildo because that's what his damn name is. (and it doesn't sound right to me to transliterate ō as just o, but OK, I believe it, and it's far from the only inconsistency with romanization) -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 03:48, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:The fuck? If you want to figure out an English version of a Japanese name go and do that for [[Guiltaur]]. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 03:57, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
My opinion is my opinion, just like there are still people out there that believe the world is flat spite proof. I believe he possibly mucked up. And while in the beginning I was questioning wether it should be changed, Im not now, Mazenoise. Just cause they use english all the time doesnt also mean they use the proper katakana for it, because not everyone does well in English class over there and not everyone is gonna pay someone else to get the right way to say it either. And I think it was uncalled for all 3 of you to use the word "dude" in your comments just because of how I feel. It kinda makes you the aggressor and unwelcoming in a discussion that is meant to be a peaceful voicing of opinions. Sorry if I somehow pissed you off during this discussion.

Dead Metal does have a point, what was going through their heads when they came up with that awesome bot's name. Albeit, do you think it possible to avoid that language on a site that kids also visit, please? [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 11:17, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:If you don't think it should be changed, then what exactly <i>was</i> your point? -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 11:54, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::For those that require clarification of what I clearly stated above, I will restate in a clear manner. Originally, I believe Gildo should have been changed to Glide. After that, I thought there should be a side note to his name stating it could possibly be Glide or Glidor. Finally, being convinced with logical points, I am not questioning his translated name. I hope this is clear enough to understand. But I will still believe that his name should be Glide or Glidor, but I'm not gonna question you guys anymore. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 12:53, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:::And we will continue to believe you're stupid. (Because, goddamn, the name is pronounced GEE-ROO-DOHH, which does not fucking sound like "glider", [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B0%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC which is already a fucking word in the Japanese language]. Not even a cursory glance at the letters that make up "glider" would cause you to move the "i" to between the "l" and "g", and then turn a very commonly used schwa sound with a "r" into a long "o". What part of "Katakana has very specific phonology" do you not understand?) You are imagining a failure on the part of the creators because you refuse to admit to your ignorance. Your ignorance in the beginning could have been excused. But, now? No. You're just being willfully stupid and stubborn. And take your prudishness to people who give a shit. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:46, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Then why do you care so much to keep correcting me, instead of leaving me in my ignorance. And getting so heated about it as well, along with kind of acting childish with "needing" to use such language in a ''discussion''. I should know because I usually get heated up in an argument when I try to persuade others to my point of view, but even in this I am not getting so pissed off. You talk about me being stubborn, but what about yourselves in convincing me that I'm wrong on the subject, which I fully realize they hypocracy I am saying. Fine, I'm acting prudish, but ya know acting like a jackass and using such vulgar ways of getting your point across, does not win arguments either. I'm trying to be level-headed and calm and collective about this discussion. And you're probably right, but to me I will remain in seeing the name as a bastardized use of katakana (by creator) to give him the name Glide or Glidor. So long, I will try not to converse with you guys as much as possible, but do not see this as a victory either. Just tired of wasting my time and energy with the.... Sorry, Im not wasting my time to even come up with a proper description for you all. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 14:15, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Awwww, aren't you just '''adorable'''! --[[Special:Contributions/193.200.150.82|193.200.150.82]] 14:44, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::....O_O *blinks* >_o *starts to talk but stops* ??? [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 14:50, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-10-01T18:15:34Z

68.33.114.43: /* Gildo */

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-10-01T16:53:42Z

68.33.114.43: /* Gildo */

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-10-01T15:18:54Z

68.33.114.43: /* Gildo */

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-10-01T15:17:27Z

68.33.114.43: /* Gildo */

Somebody want to cite a source for this MLP thing? Otherwise, I call bullshit and deletion. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:It's a fun observation, and probably nto intentional. Feel free to bullshit away. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm 90+% sure that in some episode, Darkscream complains that he can't even fly, just glide. Thing is, that may have been a fansub of CR... agghh. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 01:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

== Gildo ==

I know spelling wise that is what it should be, but in my opinion with the past articles of japanese original characters' names. Glide would sound more accurate as his name, rather than Gildo. Hell, it sounds quite close to a very poor spoken version of the hiragana. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 23:59, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
:Glide would be guraido (グライド) not girudo (ギルド). --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 00:01, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::True, however the japanese language has several different ways of saying the same word, even if it's another language's word. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 12:48, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Well a Google search is quick to reveal that there is no such thing as using "ギルドー" for "glide". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:15, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

Heck, the guy above saying "Dark Scream" complaining how he can't fly only glide, would strengthen my argument. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 12:54, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:I don't see how that proves a point any. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:15, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::Didn't say it proved a point, I said it strengthened it. TFs usually have names attributed to ther peronality or abilities, or lack there of, so a TF who complains he can only Glide not fly. It would make sense that his name is Glide. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 13:56, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Maybe, but his name is still not Glide, it's Gildo (or maybe Gildor?). It's possible it's supposed to be another one of those weird Japanese puns, but his name still isn't Gildo. Besides, TF names in Japan often have nothing to do with abilities or personality. What do the names "Killbison", "Leozack" or "Guiltaur", for example, tell us about the abilities or personalities of those TFs? -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 14:22, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::True, true. I'll admit there are names out there from the japanese choices that don't go with that theme. However looking at most of the Car Robots cast, most have names derived from actual words (ex. Mach Alert, Speedbreaker, Indy Heat, etc). Also, I do not know how much experience you have with japanese names from anime. But I have seen a few who don't use the standard hiragana translations for the word. And we all know mistakes happen that don't get caught before being released.
::::Point is I think it should be Glide, maybe it could be considered to put an addition on "Dark Scream"'s page that his japanese name might be Glide, along with the straight translation.[[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 14:45, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Dude, I don't think you get how this works. This is not a "translation" issue. ギ is Gi, ル is ru and ド is do. That's just the end of the story! It's not a question of translating the world "glide" and screwing it up - they've explicitly chosen those syllables. If they wanted it to be "Glide," then it would be a four-character word sounding out "Gu-ra-i-do". And it's not. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:54, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Uh, you know that this is Katakana and not Hiragana, right? How ironic.. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 14:56, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
Oh I guess you're right mazenoise. Sorry, its been awhile since I was looking into the proper terminology of the language. Thank you for correcting me.
As for McFeely, I realize that's what the characters sound like. But Im not saying it is this site's translation fault, Im saying the japanese creator of the series mucked up on the translation of glide. Sorry, that I did not make my point out correctly. Also, I had some help and found out that Girudo translated into english is actually Guild. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 15:13, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:His name is actually spelled Girudō (ギルドー), which doesn't mean anything. In fact, I'd argue that his Japanese name should be spelled Gildor ([[Jarugar|there is precedent]]). -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 15:23, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yes, that is how it is spelled phoenetically. But I do believe you are wrong, for it does have a meaning[http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=girudo&WC=none&FG=w&BG=b&S=26]. 15:40, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Don't think you understood that: his name is Girudō, with a long "o" sound at the end, which is a different word from Girudo and obviously doesn't mean the same thing (it means nothing). -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 15:45, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::The site doesnt show the difference between long and short vowels. Also I have another site that corraborates the previous one's [http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary?word=girudo&type=romaji&search=Normal]. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 15:55, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary?word=%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89%E3%83%BC&type=kata&search=Normal Not quite.] You forgot the long vowel. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:36, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Okay, you have proven me wrong on that Detour. However, my resolve that it is the creator's intent to be Glide is steadfast. Actually Mazenoise's comment about it being -or, might mean he was going for Glider. So the translatioin of him not flying but gliding would make a bit more sense that way. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 16:46, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::It's still pure straw-grasping because his name is Gildo/Gildor. His name doesn't have to make sense, Gushar's didn't either, and only half of Gelshark's name made sense. To say nothing of Valdigus/Baldigus, Dangar, Dolrailer, Hepter and Greejeeber. The only Car Robots villains whose name made some aspect of sense have been Gas Skunk, Gigatron, Black Convoy and Shuttler. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:00, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Dude? No. If it was "Glider", the Katakana would be グライダー (''Guraidā''). ''Girudō'' (gee-roo-dohh or gee-r-dohh) is not and will never be a recognized transliteration of "Glider". (While we're at it, "Gildor" doesn't work, as that appears to sound like "Gilder". Word-ending "or", "ar", and "er" are all used for /ər/, which is represented in Katakana as ''ā''.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:52, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Okay, Im not doubting everyone's (members of this website) ability to translate katakana and reasoning for how it should be. I do believe that the creator didn't know how to translate it properly though. As a side note, Interrobang and Chris McFeely, in my personal opinion, using the noun dude as a starter to any conversation makes you sound ignorant. But that is my opinion. And don't think I'm calling you dumb because that's not what it means. [[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 02:20, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Translate ''what''? Japanese use english words '''all the time'''. They may mangle their sentence structure every now and again and again (and again and again and again) but they tend to get the words right, especially when they put em down in katakana, since that's, y'know, based on the ''phonetic pronounciation'' and all. Dude. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:31, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::''Dude.'' And your opinion on what the intention of the name is, despite repeated explanations otherwise, makes you stupid. And that certainly isn't "my personal opinion". [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:30, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hey, dude, even if the creator didn't know how to translate Glide, we're still listing his name as Gildo because that's what his damn name is. (and it doesn't sound right to me to transliterate ō as just o, but OK, I believe it, and it's far from the only inconsistency with romanization) -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 03:48, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
:The fuck? If you want to figure out an English version of a Japanese name go and do that for [[Guiltaur]] [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 03:57, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
My opinion is my opinion, just like there are still people out there that believe the world is flat spite proof. I believe he possibly mucked up. And while in the beginning I was questioning wether it should be changed, Im not now, Mazenoise. Just cause they use english all the time doesnt also mean they use the proper katakana for it, because not everyone does well in English class over there and not everyone is gonna pay someone else to get the right way to say it either. And I think it was uncalled for all 3 of you to use the word "dude" in your comments just because of how I feel. It kinda makes you the aggressor and unwelcoming in a discussion that is meant to be a peaceful voicing of opinions. Sorry if I somehow pissed you off during this discussion.
Dead Metal does have a point, what was going through their heads when they came up with that awesome bot's name. Albeit, do you think it possible to avoid that language on a site that kids also visit, please?[[Special:Contributions/68.33.114.43|68.33.114.43]] 11:17, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Dark Scream

2009-08-10T02:54:23Z

68.33.114.43: minor

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers and all "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]". Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref><tt>Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.</tt> — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) <small>1st ed</small> p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Maximus]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.
*[[Seven Primes]]; due to the limited number of currently confirmed members, it is possible that the other 6 of the Seven Primes may in-fact represent either already confirmed members of the original thirteen, or may in-fact be the missing members of the thirteen themselves. The fact that the Fallen from the movie-verse is said at Botcon 2009 to somehow (we don't know how) be the same as the Fallen in the DW-verse makes this a 'slight' possibility.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Maximus was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with each character spanning the whole multiverse. For example, though The Fallen originated from the Dreamwave Generation 1 continuity, there is one of him in whatever universe Vector Prime, a [[Unicron Trilogy]] character, originated. Vector Prime's stewardship of Primus's children throughout multiple timelines and universes certainly lends credence to it as well.

==Live-action movie franchise==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
{{note|This information was given by the Fallen and clashes with the above multiversal singularity origin.}}
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
{{note|This origin information was given by Simon Furman and '''also''' clashes with the above multiversal singularity origin.}}
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

{{-}}

==Trivia==
*IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing’s set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of Botcon 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it’s become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallise the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Subspace

2009-08-06T23:02:08Z

68.33.114.43: minor

[[Image:S3 darkawakening cyclonus subspace.gif|right|300px|thumb|"Where'd you get that?" "Editing mistake- in my favor!"]]
'''Subspace''' one name used by [[Transformer|Transformers]] to refer to the extra-dimensional "space" that exists between realities. Although more properly known as "[[Transwarp]]", those who use the "subspace" term do not commonly realize that the two concepts are related (or are not even aware of the existence Transwarp
in the first place).

Specifically, subspace, referred to with that name, is used as a medium for faster-than-light communication, and as an extra-dimensional storage space for Transformers to keep their weapons and other personal paraphernalia.

{{-}}
==Fiction==
===''Binaltech''===
After numerous [[Autobot|Autobots]] were rendered unfit for duty by the [[Cosmic Rust (disease)|Cosmic Rust]] virus, Wheeljack invented the [[GT System]] to increase their manpower. Using this system, a Transformer's [[Spark|spark]] could safely be stored in subspace, and from there, they would be able to control multiple [[Binaltech]] bodies via translink ports installed on them. [[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokscreen]] was the first to undergo the process. <ref>Binaltech story chapter #4</ref>

Later, when [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] came under attack by the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]] in the vicinity of [[Saturn]], Wheeljack attempted to use the GT System to save his friend's life. Operating from his workshop on Earth, Wheeljack attempted to transfer Prowl's spark through subspace into a new Binaltech body that he had built there. Alas, the system malfunctioned, and Prowl's spark was lost in the depths of subspace. <ref>Binaltech story chapter #12</ref>

A few years later, Prowl's spark found its way through the infinite vastness of subspace and materialized in a [[The Transformers (cartoon)|parallel timeline]] where the Binaltech project had died out. Unfortunately, this did not put him beyond the reach of his timeline's Decepticons, who used a neuro-net frame, hooked up to subspace node, to locate his spark across the dimensions and drain energy from it to power a synthetic [[Electrum|electrum]] monster they had created. An Autobot from the timeline Prowl had travelled to, [[Bluestreak]], voyaged across subspace to team up with the Autobots of Prowl's home time, stop the Decepticons, and restore Prowl to his true body. <ref>Binaltech story chapters #16 & 17</ref>

===''Timelines''===
[[Scattorshot (Cybertron)|Scattorshot]] explained the function of subspace storage pockets and their relation to Transwarp space to [[Jackpot]] and [[Hubcap]], who had trouble wrapping their heads around the concept. The two were familiar with subspace radio, however. {{storylink|Gone Too Far|Gone Too Far}}

When his spark was hijacked and transferred into a "lowtech" body, [[Bulletbike (TransTech)|Bulletbike]] had a subspace storage pocket in his left forearm. {{storylink|I, Lowtech|I, Lowtech}}

====''Unicron Trilogy'' continuity====
Some Transformers have access to an "extra-dimensional storage pocket" for their own personal use. As their name implies, they are extra-dimensional pocket that are used for storage. To retrieve something, a Transformer "taps into" the pocket, thereby "summoning" the object.

[[Blurr (Cybertron)|Blurr]], [[Runamuck (Cybertron)|Runamuck]], and presumably others keep their [[Cyber Key]] in their extra-dimensional storage pocket to be retrieved as-needed. {{storylink|Force of Habit}}

===''Animated''===
[[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] uses a "personal storage dimension." He accesses it by means of a drawer that opens from his chest where he can store and retrieve large amounts of technology. The Autobots were able to transport [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] directly into Swindle's personal storage dimension using a [[space bridge]] after [[Sari Sumdac]] was able to hack into Swindle's private [[transwarp]] frequency. {{storylink|Decepticon Air}}

==Fanon==
[[Image:Ravage mtmte subspace.jpg|right|350px|thumb|]]
The idea that Transformers can store equipment or portions of their body in an extradimensional space has been popular in [[Fandom|fandom]] for decades, essentially arising as an answer to perhaps the most famous question of all: "Where does [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[Trailer|trailer]] go when he transforms?" When the Autobot leader transformed into robot mode in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]] cartoon, his trailer would almost always slide out of the frame, not to be seen again until he transformed back into truck mode, at which point it would come sliding in to connect back up with him. Rather than believe that the trailer was constantly following Prime around like a puppy, conveniently perpetually out of shot, fans warmed to the notion that it was, in fact, being shunted into this extradimensional "subspace", where it remained until Prime summoned it back.

[[Image:Kickback subspace.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Say hello to my leetle friend!]]
This "subspace" theory also helped to explain where characters' weaponry disappeared to when they transformed into vehicle mode, and happened to line up well with very occasional instances in the show, which featured the animation "cheat" of having some characters' weapons appear or disappear in a simple flash of light. This technique occurred as early as "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 2]]", when [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] transformed into cassette mode, and his hip-mounted missiles vanished in a flare of purple energy. Despite this early precedent, the effect was ''very'' rarely used in the American series, occurring only a few more times: with [[Kickback (G1)|Kickback]] in "[[A Plague of Insecticons]]", with [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] in "[[Dark Awakening]]", and with [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] in a Season 3 [[Commercial bumper|commercial bumper]]. Conversely, later Japanese series ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' and ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'' used the effect like it was going out of style, with characters regularly manifesting weapons of all kinds in their hands, with light flashes of all colors, including white, golden, blue, green, purple and pink. Notably, in "[[Resurrection!? The Decepticon Fortress]]", the idea of plucking weapons out of thin air was actually made into a plot point when [[Deathsaurus]] was unable to summon his weapons due to depleting his personal energy supply.

[[Image:Optimus tud subspace.jpg|right|180px|thumb|"Jesus Christ, Doc! You disintegrated Einstein!"]]
This "subspace glow" effect also saw some limited use for other means in the American series. In "More than Meets the Eye, Part 2", when [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] retracts his hand and replaces it with his grappling hook, his entire forearm glows orange in-between. In one particularly notable instance from "[[The Ultimate Doom, Part 2]]", the effect was even applied to Prime's trailer; although it still rolled in from offscreen, rather than materializing out of nowhere, it was shown to be glowing with yellow light.

[[Image:Soundwave jesus.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Father, eject. Operation: Forgive them, for they know not what they do.]]
In a similar vein, subspace also helped to explain the assorted cases of [[Size changing|size changing]] in the cartoon series, with the notion that characters who shrank when they transformed, like [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] and others, shunted their extraneous mass into subspace (because their mass ''was'' going ''somewhere'', since they became proportionately lighter when they shrank, rather than remaining the same weight). Again, the idea intersected well with one particular instance in "[[Transport to Oblivion]]", which saw Soundwave's body emit a "subspace glow" as he transformed and grew back to robot mode (although admittedly, out of the scores of times characters changed size when they transformed, this was the only time such an effect was employed). While the original cartoon never addressed the concept of size-changing, numerous explanations for the process would be featured in later continuities (see the concept's own article for details)

[[Image:Dinobothunt jazz subspace.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Dock it in yer pocket.]]
Although the subspace theory originated with the cartoon, evidence to support it could even be found in the [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|Marvel comic]] series; specifically the 1986 story "[[Dinobot Hunt!]]", in which Jazz was shown to open a panel on his hip and remove a tiny version of his gun, which subsequently grew to full size. Years later, even ''[[Beast Wars]]'' would feature an animation cheat that subspace could be used to explain, which would involve characters drawing their weapons by reaching behind themselves, despite the fact that any shot of the characters' backs did not show a rear holster or anyplace to keep a weapon.

Regardless of the popularity of the concept in the fandom, subspace remained firmly in the realm of [[Fanon|fanon]] for years, until it finally received its first named appearance in fiction when [[Hirofumi Ichikawa]] featured it in his ''Binaltech'' storyline in 2005 and used as a means for faster-than-light communication. A few years later, [[Greg Sepelak]] and [[Trent Troop]] [[Canonizing|canonized]] the whole shebang when they featured subspace by name in the [[Transformers Collectors' Club]] prose stories "[[Gone Too Far]]" and "[[I, Lowtech]]". These stories officialized the long-standing concept of subspace being used as personal storage space for Transformers (a previous story by the two authors, "[[Force of Habit]]", had mentioned [[Extra-dimensional storage pocket|extra-dimensional storage pockets]] without explicitly referring to them as subspace), while at the same time tying it into the cross-dimensional Transwarp space from the ''[[Beast Wars]]'' animated series.

Following these canonizations of long-standing fan concepts, about the only thing subspace hasn't been used to officially explain is size-changing. Even then, [[IDW Publishing]] has made use of the idea of extradimensional mass-displacement to explain characters' size-changing in their Generation 1 timeline. So we're just waiting for you to clarify where the mass is getting displaced to, guys!

==References==
<references />

==External links==
*[http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/%7Esstoneb/tf/faqs/tffaq.txt Subspace is discussed in Steve-O Stonebreaker's Transformers FAQ, from the late 1990s]

[[Category:Dimensions]]
[[Category:Generation 1 locations]]
[[Category:Technology]]

R-infinity accelerator

2009-07-29T03:15:23Z

68.33.114.43: minor edit

:''An r-infinity accelerator is a type of weapon in the [[IDW]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:R-infinity accelerator 1.jpg|right|180px|thumb|The r-infinity accelerator is unusually squat for a gun.]]
An '''r-infinity accelerator''' is a powerful, portable weapon which draws energy from the [[wikipedia:degenerate_matter|degenerate]] core of a dead star. It is seemingly one of a class of "critical mass weaponry", of which it is the only revealed type. [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] was selling critical mass weaponry, presumably including r-infinity accelerators, to the inhabitants of various planets when [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] tracked him down. In a confrontation on [[Zull]], Swindle fired an accelerator at Magnus, but missed. He was soon captured. {{storylink|Spotlight: Ultra Magnus|Spotlight: Ultra Magnus}}

[[Image:R-infinity accelerator 2.jpg|right|180px|thumb|The accelerator's shoulder bracket is visible to the left from this angle.]]
It is unknown whether the weapon acquires its energy through an intradimensional link like [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s [[fusion cannon]], or if the weapon is literally powered by a small stellar core fragment housed inside the device. It is also unknown whether the collapsed star in question is a [[wikipedia:white_dwarf|white dwarf]] or a [[wikipedia:neutron_star|neutron star]]. Since both types of degenerate matter are extremely dense and hot, it may be that the r-infinity accelerator can be powered by either.

The accelerator's barrel has a central, conical device surrounded by six smaller cones. When powering up, plasma trails from the outer cones in a display similar to that produced by [[wikipedia:Tesla_coil|Tesla coils]]. The weapon discharges several intertwined blue-white beams. When the beams strike a stone or concrete floor, they sound like "ba-da-doooom!"

[[Image:R-infinity accelerator 3.jpg|left|180px|thumb|BA-DA-DOOOOM!]]
For a being of median Cybertronian size, the weapon is best fired from a shoulder-mounted posture. Smaller models may exist for use by smaller species, but if so, it seems odd that Swindle would rely on one that is larger than necessary.

[[Category:Weapons]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]