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Talk:Charger

2007-01-12T22:47:16Z

69.88.91.218:

Always thought this guy's Slag-itude was pretty wierd. Although if there WAS one Dinobot to defect to the Cons, he'd likely be the one. Never really paid attention to the meteor bit before though... that's really weird and doesn't seem to make much sense on its own... could it be a refference to something? Maybe involving Slag?

*Well, there was that meteorite from "War of the Dinobots" that Slag and the other Dinobots helped steal for Megatron. It had powerful but unstable energies. That's all I got, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 22:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

:Hrm, for what it's worth, Ratchet was startled to discover that Slag had the exact same survival programming as Shockwave. Maybe Slag was a Decepticon. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Matrix of Leadership

2007-01-11T21:12:21Z

69.88.91.218:

*wide eyed*
I thought the Matrix contained the accumulated wisdom of the ages?

In the cartoons, yes. In the comics, however, it contained the essence of Primus, and as such was what allowed Prime to give life to new Transformers/destroy Unicron with it.

The Matrix of Leadership accumulated the Wisdom of the Ages by being a portal to the Allspark. When a Transformer is alive, it grows in knowledge, and when it dies, its Spark returns to the Allspark and adds its experience to the whole. --ItsWalky

So... how exactly dids it 'use up' the wisdom of the ages in Return of Optimus Priem then?
...and for that matter, how the hell did they recharge it with a nuclear power plant? ;-)

The Matrix serves many different purposes. It's a Tchotke of Ultimate Power, or - literally - a Deus-Ex-Machina.

I think it's referred to as The PowerPack in the Japanese continuity, and at this is the simplest example of it's functionality - a large battery.

It is also the Prime Matrix. It essentially contains Primus's "blueprints" for the Transformer race, which are continually reinterpreted by Vector Sigma, in association with the knowledge and sparks of those Transformers who have returned to the Allspark. (I suspect that this is why Vector Sigma occasionally requires that the Matrix be brought to it - so that it can be updated)

It is also these days, most likely home to the Creation Matrix, a program which was at one point resident in Optimus Prime (and Buster Witwicky's) head.

It is sometimes referred to as The Autobot Matrix of Leadership, though it seems like this is a mostly ceremonial thing - It is possible to lead the Autobots without it, but it's usually placed in possession of the leader for safekeeping.

Finally, it is - or has evolved into, at least in some continuities, an entity in it's own right
--ttk

== Japanese Matrix confusion. ==

-BW2 and Neo's Matrices are NOT the Matrix of Leadership. They are seperate, OTHER Matrixes. They should be listed on a pages about Matrixes, not on the MoL page, which has a rich and stories history without involving the other things.

-FIRE CONVOY DID NOT HAVE A MATRIX. yes, I know his toy was designed with one? It's his Power Filter. The producers of the CR series didnt' want to deal with matrix-shit, so they made it his Power Filter. That's why he plugs an energy cable right into it one episode while recharging.

Rid DUBBED that power filter back into beign the Matrix of Leadership. Yes, it's stupid and complicated, but that's hwo it is. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to note this. I just remembered I'd deleted this crap once before for the same reason. X-Bob, seriously, learn to spell and stop spamming this wiki with the same stuff over and over -- or otherwise manage to be useful somehow -- or you're going bye-bye. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The Spelling complaint I can understand, but spamming? [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 12:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Perhaps I'm Wrong, but this is what I've been Told many a time by several different sources. When they were producing BWII (or perhaps when they were producing Neo--who the hell knows anymore) the Japanese Continuity Guys decided that at some point after G1, under unknown circumstances, the Matrix of Leadership was fragmented or split up and a fragment was given to each member of the Convoy Council (or only the best members, or something like that.) This is why LioConvoy and Big Convoy have Matrixes, even though they probably couldn't be 'technically' called the Matrix of Leadership, it's definitely supposed to be a fragment of it. But Anyway. Fire Convoy would also, in theory, have this in his chest (Although Fire Convoy, and indeed most of the RID-related cast, has a questionable existance 'in' the original continuity, but for the moment we'll assume that they do exist). So he plugs a cable into it in one ep. That doesn't mean much--Big Convoy used to hook his Matrix up to the Big Cannon. But yeah. Those three are definitely shards of the Matrix of Leadership. Now, whether this is worth actually mentioning or not, that's up to you. >.> [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I wanna write an article for the Beast Wars II and Neo versions of the Matrix, but you guys don't want it on this page. So what should I name it, then? They are Matrices of Leadership, just not THE Matrix of Leadership. So what would be a good name to use "Matrix of Leadership (BW)"? No?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:I don't... THINK they had names. I think an article called 'Lioconvoy's Matrix' would be fine. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

But should I make seperate articles for Big Convoy's Matrix and Optimus Primal's/Beast Convoy's Matrix? Or should I just bunch em all under Lioconvoy's Matrix?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

*Alright, I went ahead and wrote an article under [[Leadership Matrix]], as that seemed to work well-enough. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

===Fire Convoy===

While I see here - and have seen it said elsewhere (mostly by Derik!) - that Fire Convoy did not have a Matrix in ''Car Robots'', I've also heard other people say that he DID, and that God Magnus had his own, and wanted to take Fire Convoy's for himself to increase his own power. It was the overspill of power which resulted from this, so I've heard, that was responsible for the powering-up of the Car Brothers. Anyone know wot's wot? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:At the moment, I'm not sure about God Magnus having a Matrix of his own, but I have some proof that Fire Convoy himself DID possess a Matrix.

:[http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/Prime-Schematic01a.jpg Here]

:This is a scan from a Car Robots guidebook I got at BotCon. The arrow pointing to where Fire Convoy's flip-up Matrix panel on the toy says (roughly):

:"Energon Matrix. Computer that stores fight data. Proof of his position as Leader."

:Incidentally, that other thing in his torso is his Spark (which is indicated by a text box on the page below).

:So, there you go. Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix. I'll check the rest of my books later to see if there's anything about Lio Convoy or Big Convoy's matrices. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 06:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bbe3540aff261785 Doug E. Fresh speaketh]
::I'm tired of relying on source books. Clearly, at one point it was goign to be a Matrix, but then they changed their minds (or vice versa.) Which was it in the '''finished episodes''' in Japan?
::(Takara considers CR and RiD the same series, so just callign ti a Matrix isnt' awful, but I'd reallyprefer we get our facts straight.)-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:The online TV Tokyo episode summaries for Car Robots episodes 24 and 25 speak of how God Magnus "aims for Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix". [http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/carobot/koremade.html Here.]

:I've found nothing in my books or on Japanese websites that suggests that God Magnus had his own Energon Matrix, but simply that he was after Fire Convoy's, and that trying to take it was what triggered their fusion into God Fire Convoy.

:As for the Cybertronia Engine, perhaps that was an early idea that was dropped, or a misinterpretation? Maybe if we could find the original page..

:As for other Matrices, here's some data on [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/LioConvoy-Data01a.jpg Lio Convoy].

:According to that page, Lio Convoy ALSO has an Energon Matrix (it's the thing under the panel on his chest). Roughly, the text says: "Energon Matrix. An energy box which only Cybertron leaders possess. Maximum output of 105 00000 horsepower."

:That it's called an Energon Matrix is backed up by the Robot Masters toy's bio. I've yet to find a name for Big Convoy's Matrix, alas. Maybe it's also an Energon Matrix.

::Well... boo. Since Fire Convoy plugged his repowering hose into the 'matrix' in one episode of CR, I assumed the Power Converter version was what was in play for the cartoon.
::I guess I have to remember, this is Japan, the country that decided you could recharge the wisdom of the ages by hooking the matrix up to a nuclear power plant. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:::See, I was thinking that the little socket-thingie wasn't his Matrix, but that he had his Matrix stored somewhere else in his body, like, behind the windows of his small bot mode, as usual. I mean, Magnus's attempt to take it didn't involve going for that socket in any way, and heck, in Omega Prime mode, the piece containing that socket isn't even involved. Christ, RiD took all this and made it SO MUCH more sensible. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::::This is probobly his spark, but It could be a Matrix
http://www.dvandom.com/bb00/5fire.GIF

:(EDIT: Not RM Lio Convoy's bio, his [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/RMLioConvoy-Instructs.jpg instructions]. My bad.)

:For an unexpected twist, check out this [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/BW2Galvatron-Data01a.jpg Galvatron] page. Item 10 is... the "Galva-Matrix"! That marble-thingie on his chest. My translator had trouble with this one, unfortunately. "Galva-Matrix. In life, a Spark-protecting crystal sphere. (Something about the future), it will carry a mysterious power."

:I'd guess that the Galva-Matrix isn't a "true" Matrix, but just something done to emphasize Galvatron as Lio Convoy's counterpart. Still, may be worth a footnote --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 09:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
::IIRC, the Galva-Matrix is a supercomputer from Gaea that Galvatron stuck in his chest... or something. It is not a trtue Matrix, but he calsl it that. (And I don't know enough about BW2 to know whether or nto it ha any affinity for Amogolis or not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

== Dreamwave Continuity ==
*I've added more info, but this probably needs more fleshing out. And if someone could find a better picture, preferably of the matrix visible through Optimus's damaged chestplate, that'd be grand. [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 15:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

==Amalgamation and sources==
I haven't looked at this article in a little while, but I have some concerns with its current state. The introduction is concise, but combines several ideas about the Matrix into a single story which could mislead readers who don't realize that it is an amalgamation of many different ideas. Later in the article this becomes more clear, but the introduction needs some sort of a statement that it is making a meta-continuity/retcon-rich summary.

Additionally, I am not familiar with the factoid given in the G1 section about Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer. On what is that statement based? Does it even apply to the cartoon universe?

Both of these concerns are basically the same thing: the article needs to be precise and forthcoming about where its information comes from, and how broadly applicable that information is.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer 'may' be based on something Alpha Trion said at some point--or it *could* be taken from one of those third season eps where Roddy goes into the Matrix to seek the wisdom of the dead guys. But probably Trion. [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the BM entry should be 'see: allspark.' The Allspark may be caleld the Matrix, but it's not the Matrix of Leadership, which refers to the physical housing-- the artifact itself.
Or was there soem dumbass explicit statement the MOL was the Allspark I blocked otu from BM? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

== How do we handle this ?==

This page was a horrible mush of different objects from different continuities and fannon relating them. I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix and the others, but now I see that the CM page just redirects here. How do we fix that. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 02:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:With a Diagram, and little lines pointing to its parts? "Matrix of Leadership A.K.A. the Matrix Holder" "Crystal, contains Wisdom of the Ages A.k.a. the severed power of Primus, and the Creation Matrix program." "Also contaisn a direct access tot he Allspark Dimension."
:I think that breaking down by continuity is... rather a bad idea, actually, since in most modern meta-continuities, the Matrix will probably contain almost all of its aspects, even if they're not explicitly stated. You'd be better off with notes at the beginning of each fiction section noting that the MOL's aspects are limited ot X in this continuity.
: Here's something to ask- is the MoL related to the Matrix in Armada? I mean related in the same sense that the Unicrons are? What about the Mini-cons having their own allspark dimensiona in Linkage, and their own Matrix (apparently not really related to the full-sized TF's) in the Armada comic? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: Yeah, Originally I changed it mainly because I saw on Disambig. page that each variation on the Matrix seemes to already have its own page, wich seemed to suggest that this page should be only for the ACTUAL MoL from the cartoon. The problem is that really despite being based on the same McGuffin from the movie the MoL and the Creation Matrix are VERY different things really. Then you add in the later Matricies (what's the plural again?) whose natures are really vague (though most seem Primus-centric, as opposed to the MoL) and it's a big jumble of different objects that the article was trying to fannon together into one thing.

::Even if we do want to go for a joint page on all things Matrix, which may indeed be the best way, this needed editing, since if was a-mush with fannon. I also think if it's going to be universal, this article kinda belongs under the title "Autobot Matrix" since that's an appropriate title to refer to all the subjects contained therin, rather than nameing it after something that's only a small fraction of it's subject? Agree/disagree? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Disagree. The Matrix of Leadership, though traditionally held by an Autobot and thus signifying leadership, is not inherently Autobot.
:::If we're really lookign to un-muddy the waters, try tracking down the second-most-common name for the Creation Matrix (did we ever get an explicit statement that the Primordial Program was the CM?) and refer to it as that, at least ont his page. It's '''cheating''', but the resulting article would be much, much clearer.
::: (Half the mess seems to stem from the Autobots own tendency to refer tot he creation program and the object interchangably.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::What's the basis for putting different Matrices in one article? Shouldn't the G1 Cartoon, RiD, Beast Wars, and Armada Matracies, and the Creation Matrix have seperate pages? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: My first instinct was seperate pages as well, at least for the MoL and the CM since they're such different things. I think Derik's argument is that in later continuities that looked to toon and comic for inspiration, say Dreamwave-on, Matrixi (need plural... too lazy to look it up...) have been protrayed as a bit like both, making which page to put them on a bit more questionable.

:::: How much of that is really that true though? As far as I can think of off the top of my head, all new modern Matrixicies have kinda mostlyfunctioned on the Primus/Creation Matrix template, yes? I think the only real question might be where to place the original Japanese incarnation, where it was more a powersource, and vector sigma remote control than anything else, but I guess that's go best in with the other Japanese Leadership Matrixes, yes/no? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix"
: Not in recent years, in which they're treated as the same object. For example, Primeval Dawn even refers to the Matrix of Leadership within Optimus Prime's chest as "that which gives life," which is the only way the two differ. They're both the only thing that Unicron fears, they both can grant life, and they're both kept in the same container. Much of what was on this page and considered fanon was actually real information from fictions you simply didn't remember. That's sort of why I made sure to create this page in the first place, 'cuz I was keeping track of it all, and wanted to make sure all the various connections were recorded. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: So then, because of the relative obscurity and intermingles nature of the sources here- this reallly is an article in need of some major footnoting.
:: (I'm ust goign to throw out that the awful Transformers Takai game specifically refers to the Matrix's power as comign from the crystal, not the housig, and says that it contains the collective wisdom of all Autobots who ever fought for Justice- a clear backing off of the 'only autobot leaders' thing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: The original article did clearly need footnotes. It was one of the first few things I put on this wiki, back before sources were invented by Al Gore. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: Also, sadly, I am out of town and don't have access to my Ultimate Guide, Dreamwave material, and Universe stuffs, so I can't reconstruct this article for a while yet. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: No problem. Since the concensus is one article for all Matricies I've reinstated the previous version. But, I've changed it to fit the established form somewhat beter (continuity neutral opening and all) and to remove some of the worst continuity mushing. Better? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

::::: Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle Beast Wars' use of the Matrix of Leadership as Optimus Prime's spark, while Primal carried it for a while? It needs to be addressed, and I recall someone mentioning that Foreward and DiTillo made the Matrix a Spark on accident. [[User:Mirai Gen|Mirai Gen]] 08:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::: That's already been addressed a few times on this wiki. Try the page for [[author intent]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]]. --[[User:67.188.23.44|67.188.23.44]] 16:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
::::::: I copied the Primeval Dawn section from the Optimus Prime article and put it in this article. That's relevant, yes? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

We need to make a decision about this article and the Creation Matrix article. I would favor combining the two, probably under the Creation Matrix article. Otherwise, we need to find a separate home for the Dreamwave/UT stuff, as it doesn't fit here any better than it fits under Creation Matrix if we're treating them as totally separate entities. We also need to sort out the Energon Matrixes info from here, and what's on the Energon Matrix page; given that there's more than one Energon Matrix in the Beast Era, I think that at least should be a separate article with links from here. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 21:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
: As far as I'm concerned, Creation Matrix is just another/early name for the Matrix of Leadership. They're the same object and they do the same things. The Dreamwave material blurred the waters even more between the two, connecting it, the Allspark, and Vector Sigma, just as, well, the original article stated. [[Creation Matrix]] should redirect to the Marvel Comics section of the [[Matrix of Leadership]] article. --Walky
::I consider Creation Matrix to be the more fundamental entity, and would prefer for the merged article to reside there. As far as I recall, neither name has been used in more than one continuity. Usually it's just plain old "the Matrix". (I would also accept the merged article residing under a generic name like that.) However, as more stories have given more and more information about the various Matrices, they have been converging towards something more like the CM than the MoL. The MoL has -- as far we know -- nothing to do with life, the universe, and everything. The CM on the other hand does. And so do all subsequent Matrices. The MoL is an aberration among (American, at least) Transformer Matrices for being nothing but a hand-me-down which happens to contain stored memories and can for some reason beat Unicron, who we know basically nothing about if you restrict yourself to just the MoL's continuity. The G1 toon has no Primus, no sparks, no Allspark. Those things are fundamental to the contemporary idea of the Matrix. The CM started out as just being a computer program, but by the end of the Marvel comics run it was the essence of Primus, just like our modern idea of what the Matrix is. So... yeah. CM>MoL. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:: It was also called the Matrix of Leadership in Dreamwave continuity (just checked) and in the Unicron Trilogy (from memory, admittedly). The Matrix of Leadership these days is basically the Creation Matrix in practice but called "the Matrix of Leadership." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

== Great Matrix ==

In the fifth issue of the Marvel TF comic, Megatron swore by something called "the Great Matrix". Could this be another name for the Creation Matrix?
: The Matrix has about 30 different casual nicknames in the Marvel Comics, so yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== UT Matrix ==

Is the UT Matrix... the Matrix of Leadership?

Why is it in this article? The Mini-con Matrix (for instance) isn't. -Derik20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
: It's called the Matrix of Leadership a few times in the Armada cartoon, I believe. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

::Oh please, it's not like names in the Armada dub can be relies on. Let's put it in a new article called 'Matrix of the Commander!'
::And you seem to be missing my point- why is the Matrix considered 'the same thing' across continuity families? The only other two articles (AFAIK) that span multiple continuity families are Primus and Unicron.
::It jsut seems kinda wierd for the Matrix to look the same and be the same thing for 85% of the article- and then suddenly we've got the RiD and UT Matrixes thrown in. "One is square and has a sword inside and the other is art-deco ane never gets mentioned when Unicron shows up, but they have the same name so I guess they go in this article!"
::Basically I'm suggesting making this article Matrix of Leadership (G1) -Derik21:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Matrix of Leadership

2007-01-11T20:43:29Z

69.88.91.218: UT Matrix

*wide eyed*
I thought the Matrix contained the accumulated wisdom of the ages?

In the cartoons, yes. In the comics, however, it contained the essence of Primus, and as such was what allowed Prime to give life to new Transformers/destroy Unicron with it.

The Matrix of Leadership accumulated the Wisdom of the Ages by being a portal to the Allspark. When a Transformer is alive, it grows in knowledge, and when it dies, its Spark returns to the Allspark and adds its experience to the whole. --ItsWalky

So... how exactly dids it 'use up' the wisdom of the ages in Return of Optimus Priem then?
...and for that matter, how the hell did they recharge it with a nuclear power plant? ;-)

The Matrix serves many different purposes. It's a Tchotke of Ultimate Power, or - literally - a Deus-Ex-Machina.

I think it's referred to as The PowerPack in the Japanese continuity, and at this is the simplest example of it's functionality - a large battery.

It is also the Prime Matrix. It essentially contains Primus's "blueprints" for the Transformer race, which are continually reinterpreted by Vector Sigma, in association with the knowledge and sparks of those Transformers who have returned to the Allspark. (I suspect that this is why Vector Sigma occasionally requires that the Matrix be brought to it - so that it can be updated)

It is also these days, most likely home to the Creation Matrix, a program which was at one point resident in Optimus Prime (and Buster Witwicky's) head.

It is sometimes referred to as The Autobot Matrix of Leadership, though it seems like this is a mostly ceremonial thing - It is possible to lead the Autobots without it, but it's usually placed in possession of the leader for safekeeping.

Finally, it is - or has evolved into, at least in some continuities, an entity in it's own right
--ttk

== Japanese Matrix confusion. ==

-BW2 and Neo's Matrices are NOT the Matrix of Leadership. They are seperate, OTHER Matrixes. They should be listed on a pages about Matrixes, not on the MoL page, which has a rich and stories history without involving the other things.

-FIRE CONVOY DID NOT HAVE A MATRIX. yes, I know his toy was designed with one? It's his Power Filter. The producers of the CR series didnt' want to deal with matrix-shit, so they made it his Power Filter. That's why he plugs an energy cable right into it one episode while recharging.

Rid DUBBED that power filter back into beign the Matrix of Leadership. Yes, it's stupid and complicated, but that's hwo it is. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to note this. I just remembered I'd deleted this crap once before for the same reason. X-Bob, seriously, learn to spell and stop spamming this wiki with the same stuff over and over -- or otherwise manage to be useful somehow -- or you're going bye-bye. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The Spelling complaint I can understand, but spamming? [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 12:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Perhaps I'm Wrong, but this is what I've been Told many a time by several different sources. When they were producing BWII (or perhaps when they were producing Neo--who the hell knows anymore) the Japanese Continuity Guys decided that at some point after G1, under unknown circumstances, the Matrix of Leadership was fragmented or split up and a fragment was given to each member of the Convoy Council (or only the best members, or something like that.) This is why LioConvoy and Big Convoy have Matrixes, even though they probably couldn't be 'technically' called the Matrix of Leadership, it's definitely supposed to be a fragment of it. But Anyway. Fire Convoy would also, in theory, have this in his chest (Although Fire Convoy, and indeed most of the RID-related cast, has a questionable existance 'in' the original continuity, but for the moment we'll assume that they do exist). So he plugs a cable into it in one ep. That doesn't mean much--Big Convoy used to hook his Matrix up to the Big Cannon. But yeah. Those three are definitely shards of the Matrix of Leadership. Now, whether this is worth actually mentioning or not, that's up to you. >.> [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I wanna write an article for the Beast Wars II and Neo versions of the Matrix, but you guys don't want it on this page. So what should I name it, then? They are Matrices of Leadership, just not THE Matrix of Leadership. So what would be a good name to use "Matrix of Leadership (BW)"? No?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:I don't... THINK they had names. I think an article called 'Lioconvoy's Matrix' would be fine. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

But should I make seperate articles for Big Convoy's Matrix and Optimus Primal's/Beast Convoy's Matrix? Or should I just bunch em all under Lioconvoy's Matrix?--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

*Alright, I went ahead and wrote an article under [[Leadership Matrix]], as that seemed to work well-enough. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 01:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

===Fire Convoy===

While I see here - and have seen it said elsewhere (mostly by Derik!) - that Fire Convoy did not have a Matrix in ''Car Robots'', I've also heard other people say that he DID, and that God Magnus had his own, and wanted to take Fire Convoy's for himself to increase his own power. It was the overspill of power which resulted from this, so I've heard, that was responsible for the powering-up of the Car Brothers. Anyone know wot's wot? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:At the moment, I'm not sure about God Magnus having a Matrix of his own, but I have some proof that Fire Convoy himself DID possess a Matrix.

:[http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/Prime-Schematic01a.jpg Here]

:This is a scan from a Car Robots guidebook I got at BotCon. The arrow pointing to where Fire Convoy's flip-up Matrix panel on the toy says (roughly):

:"Energon Matrix. Computer that stores fight data. Proof of his position as Leader."

:Incidentally, that other thing in his torso is his Spark (which is indicated by a text box on the page below).

:So, there you go. Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix. I'll check the rest of my books later to see if there's anything about Lio Convoy or Big Convoy's matrices. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 06:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bbe3540aff261785 Doug E. Fresh speaketh]
::I'm tired of relying on source books. Clearly, at one point it was goign to be a Matrix, but then they changed their minds (or vice versa.) Which was it in the '''finished episodes''' in Japan?
::(Takara considers CR and RiD the same series, so just callign ti a Matrix isnt' awful, but I'd reallyprefer we get our facts straight.)-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:The online TV Tokyo episode summaries for Car Robots episodes 24 and 25 speak of how God Magnus "aims for Fire Convoy's Energon Matrix". [http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/carobot/koremade.html Here.]

:I've found nothing in my books or on Japanese websites that suggests that God Magnus had his own Energon Matrix, but simply that he was after Fire Convoy's, and that trying to take it was what triggered their fusion into God Fire Convoy.

:As for the Cybertronia Engine, perhaps that was an early idea that was dropped, or a misinterpretation? Maybe if we could find the original page..

:As for other Matrices, here's some data on [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/LioConvoy-Data01a.jpg Lio Convoy].

:According to that page, Lio Convoy ALSO has an Energon Matrix (it's the thing under the panel on his chest). Roughly, the text says: "Energon Matrix. An energy box which only Cybertron leaders possess. Maximum output of 105 00000 horsepower."

:That it's called an Energon Matrix is backed up by the Robot Masters toy's bio. I've yet to find a name for Big Convoy's Matrix, alas. Maybe it's also an Energon Matrix.

::Well... boo. Since Fire Convoy plugged his repowering hose into the 'matrix' in one episode of CR, I assumed the Power Converter version was what was in play for the cartoon.
::I guess I have to remember, this is Japan, the country that decided you could recharge the wisdom of the ages by hooking the matrix up to a nuclear power plant. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

:::See, I was thinking that the little socket-thingie wasn't his Matrix, but that he had his Matrix stored somewhere else in his body, like, behind the windows of his small bot mode, as usual. I mean, Magnus's attempt to take it didn't involve going for that socket in any way, and heck, in Omega Prime mode, the piece containing that socket isn't even involved. Christ, RiD took all this and made it SO MUCH more sensible. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

::::This is probobly his spark, but It could be a Matrix
http://www.dvandom.com/bb00/5fire.GIF

:(EDIT: Not RM Lio Convoy's bio, his [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/RMLioConvoy-Instructs.jpg instructions]. My bad.)

:For an unexpected twist, check out this [http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/monzo/BW2Galvatron-Data01a.jpg Galvatron] page. Item 10 is... the "Galva-Matrix"! That marble-thingie on his chest. My translator had trouble with this one, unfortunately. "Galva-Matrix. In life, a Spark-protecting crystal sphere. (Something about the future), it will carry a mysterious power."

:I'd guess that the Galva-Matrix isn't a "true" Matrix, but just something done to emphasize Galvatron as Lio Convoy's counterpart. Still, may be worth a footnote --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 09:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
::IIRC, the Galva-Matrix is a supercomputer from Gaea that Galvatron stuck in his chest... or something. It is not a trtue Matrix, but he calsl it that. (And I don't know enough about BW2 to know whether or nto it ha any affinity for Amogolis or not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

== Dreamwave Continuity ==
*I've added more info, but this probably needs more fleshing out. And if someone could find a better picture, preferably of the matrix visible through Optimus's damaged chestplate, that'd be grand. [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 15:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

==Amalgamation and sources==
I haven't looked at this article in a little while, but I have some concerns with its current state. The introduction is concise, but combines several ideas about the Matrix into a single story which could mislead readers who don't realize that it is an amalgamation of many different ideas. Later in the article this becomes more clear, but the introduction needs some sort of a statement that it is making a meta-continuity/retcon-rich summary.

Additionally, I am not familiar with the factoid given in the G1 section about Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer. On what is that statement based? Does it even apply to the cartoon universe?

Both of these concerns are basically the same thing: the article needs to be precise and forthcoming about where its information comes from, and how broadly applicable that information is.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 22:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

:Prime being the seventh Matrix bearer 'may' be based on something Alpha Trion said at some point--or it *could* be taken from one of those third season eps where Roddy goes into the Matrix to seek the wisdom of the dead guys. But probably Trion. [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the BM entry should be 'see: allspark.' The Allspark may be caleld the Matrix, but it's not the Matrix of Leadership, which refers to the physical housing-- the artifact itself.
Or was there soem dumbass explicit statement the MOL was the Allspark I blocked otu from BM? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

== How do we handle this ?==

This page was a horrible mush of different objects from different continuities and fannon relating them. I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix and the others, but now I see that the CM page just redirects here. How do we fix that. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 02:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:With a Diagram, and little lines pointing to its parts? "Matrix of Leadership A.K.A. the Matrix Holder" "Crystal, contains Wisdom of the Ages A.k.a. the severed power of Primus, and the Creation Matrix program." "Also contaisn a direct access tot he Allspark Dimension."
:I think that breaking down by continuity is... rather a bad idea, actually, since in most modern meta-continuities, the Matrix will probably contain almost all of its aspects, even if they're not explicitly stated. You'd be better off with notes at the beginning of each fiction section noting that the MOL's aspects are limited ot X in this continuity.
: Here's something to ask- is the MoL related to the Matrix in Armada? I mean related in the same sense that the Unicrons are? What about the Mini-cons having their own allspark dimensiona in Linkage, and their own Matrix (apparently not really related to the full-sized TF's) in the Armada comic? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: Yeah, Originally I changed it mainly because I saw on Disambig. page that each variation on the Matrix seemes to already have its own page, wich seemed to suggest that this page should be only for the ACTUAL MoL from the cartoon. The problem is that really despite being based on the same McGuffin from the movie the MoL and the Creation Matrix are VERY different things really. Then you add in the later Matricies (what's the plural again?) whose natures are really vague (though most seem Primus-centric, as opposed to the MoL) and it's a big jumble of different objects that the article was trying to fannon together into one thing.

::Even if we do want to go for a joint page on all things Matrix, which may indeed be the best way, this needed editing, since if was a-mush with fannon. I also think if it's going to be universal, this article kinda belongs under the title "Autobot Matrix" since that's an appropriate title to refer to all the subjects contained therin, rather than nameing it after something that's only a small fraction of it's subject? Agree/disagree? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Disagree. The Matrix of Leadership, though traditionally held by an Autobot and thus signifying leadership, is not inherently Autobot.
:::If we're really lookign to un-muddy the waters, try tracking down the second-most-common name for the Creation Matrix (did we ever get an explicit statement that the Primordial Program was the CM?) and refer to it as that, at least ont his page. It's '''cheating''', but the resulting article would be much, much clearer.
::: (Half the mess seems to stem from the Autobots own tendency to refer tot he creation program and the object interchangably.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::What's the basis for putting different Matrices in one article? Shouldn't the G1 Cartoon, RiD, Beast Wars, and Armada Matracies, and the Creation Matrix have seperate pages? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: My first instinct was seperate pages as well, at least for the MoL and the CM since they're such different things. I think Derik's argument is that in later continuities that looked to toon and comic for inspiration, say Dreamwave-on, Matrixi (need plural... too lazy to look it up...) have been protrayed as a bit like both, making which page to put them on a bit more questionable.

:::: How much of that is really that true though? As far as I can think of off the top of my head, all new modern Matrixicies have kinda mostlyfunctioned on the Primus/Creation Matrix template, yes? I think the only real question might be where to place the original Japanese incarnation, where it was more a powersource, and vector sigma remote control than anything else, but I guess that's go best in with the other Japanese Leadership Matrixes, yes/no? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"I fixed it so that it actually talks specifically about the MoL wich is VERY different from the Creation Matrix"
: Not in recent years, in which they're treated as the same object. For example, Primeval Dawn even refers to the Matrix of Leadership within Optimus Prime's chest as "that which gives life," which is the only way the two differ. They're both the only thing that Unicron fears, they both can grant life, and they're both kept in the same container. Much of what was on this page and considered fanon was actually real information from fictions you simply didn't remember. That's sort of why I made sure to create this page in the first place, 'cuz I was keeping track of it all, and wanted to make sure all the various connections were recorded. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:: So then, because of the relative obscurity and intermingles nature of the sources here- this reallly is an article in need of some major footnoting.
:: (I'm ust goign to throw out that the awful Transformers Takai game specifically refers to the Matrix's power as comign from the crystal, not the housig, and says that it contains the collective wisdom of all Autobots who ever fought for Justice- a clear backing off of the 'only autobot leaders' thing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: The original article did clearly need footnotes. It was one of the first few things I put on this wiki, back before sources were invented by Al Gore. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
::: Also, sadly, I am out of town and don't have access to my Ultimate Guide, Dreamwave material, and Universe stuffs, so I can't reconstruct this article for a while yet. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::: No problem. Since the concensus is one article for all Matricies I've reinstated the previous version. But, I've changed it to fit the established form somewhat beter (continuity neutral opening and all) and to remove some of the worst continuity mushing. Better? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

::::: Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle Beast Wars' use of the Matrix of Leadership as Optimus Prime's spark, while Primal carried it for a while? It needs to be addressed, and I recall someone mentioning that Foreward and DiTillo made the Matrix a Spark on accident. [[User:Mirai Gen|Mirai Gen]] 08:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::: That's already been addressed a few times on this wiki. Try the page for [[author intent]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]]. --[[User:67.188.23.44|67.188.23.44]] 16:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
::::::: I copied the Primeval Dawn section from the Optimus Prime article and put it in this article. That's relevant, yes? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

We need to make a decision about this article and the Creation Matrix article. I would favor combining the two, probably under the Creation Matrix article. Otherwise, we need to find a separate home for the Dreamwave/UT stuff, as it doesn't fit here any better than it fits under Creation Matrix if we're treating them as totally separate entities. We also need to sort out the Energon Matrixes info from here, and what's on the Energon Matrix page; given that there's more than one Energon Matrix in the Beast Era, I think that at least should be a separate article with links from here. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 21:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
: As far as I'm concerned, Creation Matrix is just another/early name for the Matrix of Leadership. They're the same object and they do the same things. The Dreamwave material blurred the waters even more between the two, connecting it, the Allspark, and Vector Sigma, just as, well, the original article stated. [[Creation Matrix]] should redirect to the Marvel Comics section of the [[Matrix of Leadership]] article. --Walky
::I consider Creation Matrix to be the more fundamental entity, and would prefer for the merged article to reside there. As far as I recall, neither name has been used in more than one continuity. Usually it's just plain old "the Matrix". (I would also accept the merged article residing under a generic name like that.) However, as more stories have given more and more information about the various Matrices, they have been converging towards something more like the CM than the MoL. The MoL has -- as far we know -- nothing to do with life, the universe, and everything. The CM on the other hand does. And so do all subsequent Matrices. The MoL is an aberration among (American, at least) Transformer Matrices for being nothing but a hand-me-down which happens to contain stored memories and can for some reason beat Unicron, who we know basically nothing about if you restrict yourself to just the MoL's continuity. The G1 toon has no Primus, no sparks, no Allspark. Those things are fundamental to the contemporary idea of the Matrix. The CM started out as just being a computer program, but by the end of the Marvel comics run it was the essence of Primus, just like our modern idea of what the Matrix is. So... yeah. CM>MoL. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:: It was also called the Matrix of Leadership in Dreamwave continuity (just checked) and in the Unicron Trilogy (from memory, admittedly). The Matrix of Leadership these days is basically the Creation Matrix in practice but called "the Matrix of Leadership." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

== Great Matrix ==

In the fifth issue of the Marvel TF comic, Megatron swore by something called "the Great Matrix". Could this be another name for the Creation Matrix?
: The Matrix has about 30 different casual nicknames in the Marvel Comics, so yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== UT Matrix ==

Is the UT Matrix... the Matrix of Leadership?

Why is it in this article? The Mini-con Matrix (for instance) isn't. -Derik20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Devil Z

2007-01-11T20:09:32Z

69.88.91.218:

Don't you think there are some resemblance between Devil Z and Beast Megatron spark form when he controlled the Grand Mal? May Devil Z be an [[Spark#Aberrant_sparks|abberant spark]]?
: In the world of fan speculation, maybe. For the purposes of this wiki, no. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
::Devil Z is bigger than a spark, even Megatron's(untill he started eating ppl) and since when were Sparks the Star Child? [[User:69.14.158.214|69.14.158.214]] 20:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It's my impression that Devil-Z was the Destrons' sorta 'guardian angel, with a long (if distant) association with the faction. (I might be getting this gialogue off the Maylay dub though, which tended to do... strange things.)

Is the Maylay dub of MF... official? I know we include some the oddities of the HM dub because it achieved Metrodome release (and because in [[Mars|some cases]] it actually helps explain inconsistencies.) -Derik20:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Attacktix

2007-01-11T19:38:35Z

69.88.91.218:

If there are no objections, this really ought to go at [[Attactix]] rather than Attactix (toyline). There's no point in disambiguating a toyline that doesn't have a fiction to it; Attactix can't refer to anything ''but'' the toyline. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 06:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

:I moved it mainly in case the Attacktix line comes with its own "meta-continuity", i.e., pack-in comics or suchlike, because man, a universe where UT guys co-exist with SW guys is gonna require some 'splaaaaaainin. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 22:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

===Category?===
Me's thinkin' we should have an "Attacktix" Category, since we ARE talking about several dozen characters involved with this. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 08:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

===Series 2===
I've put together a rough draft of a table for the series 2 Transformers Attacktix pieces [[User:Andrusi/Attacktix Series 2|here]]. Rarities are a guess, based on the fact that in Series 1 TF01-TF08 were rare and TF09-TF18 were super rare, and nobody's certain what Grimlock's got yet. Now I have a few questions, though:
#Should we continue listing just the basic number (Arcee is TF01), or should we include the assortment (Arcee is TF2-01 or TF01-2 or something)?
#Should we be mentioning things like Starscream's "launcher on a string" feature?
#Should we be listing which version of the character the piece represents? The current listing is inconsistent on this, specifying ''Cybertron'' Hot Shot (for instance) but not clarifying Scourge at all.
--[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 19:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If we're listing Thrust as his own character- we really ought to do the same for Mini-Con and Omnicon. (1 page each, assume their versions are fungible)

Also- can we get pics of the other 2 versions of Decepticlone? I lloves me some Decepticlones... -Derik19:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Titan Books

2007-01-11T19:01:59Z

69.88.91.218: /* Uncollected Material */

In 2001, '''Titan Books''' acquired the rights to reprints of [[Marvel Comics]]' ''Transformers'' run, publishing the <strike>complete</strike> near-complete American series in several volumes of trade paperbacks and hardcovers. They have also released much of the Marvel UK material.

==Titan Collections==
===US Collections===
'''Transformers: Beginnings''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #1-6 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-623-X <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-642-6 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: New Order''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #7-12 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-624-8 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-625-6 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Cybertron Redux''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #13-18 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-657-4 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-661-2 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Showdown''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #19-24 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-681-7 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-687-6 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Breakdown''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #25-30 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-791-0 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-810-0 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Treason''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #31-32, #35-37 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-844-5 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-845-3 (hardcover) <br/>
'''Omits:''' Marvel US #33-34 - Color reprint of Marvel UK's [[Man of Iron]], not part of the ongoing storyline. ''This story isn't among the collected UK material either. Bizarre.''

'''Transformers: Trial by Fire''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Headmasers #1-4, Marvel Transformers US #38-39 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-950-6 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-965-4 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Maximum Force''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #40-42, #44-45 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-955-7 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-970-0 (hardcover) <br/>
'''Omits:''' Marvel US #43 - Adaption of [[The Big Broadcast of 2006]], not part of the ongoing storyline. ''This story was omitted from the [[Space Pirates]] collection too- despite that storyline begin written around this issue. Bizarre.''

'''Transformers: Dark Star''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #46-50 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-960-3 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-975-1 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Last Stand''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #51-55 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84576-008-5 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-009-3 (hardcover)

''The titles listed after this point, written by Titan owner [[Simon Furman]], were the first Transfromers collections printed.

'''Transformers: Primal Scream''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #56-62 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-401-6 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-458-X (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Matrix Quest''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #63–68 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-471-7 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-507-1 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: All Fall Down''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #69-74 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-300-1 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-524-1 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: End of the Road''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers US #75-80 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-372-9 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-419-9 (hardcover)

'''Transformers: Dark Designs''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers: Generaion 2 #1-6 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-525-X <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-527-6 (hardcover) <br/>
'''Omits:''' Marvel Transformers: Generaion 2 #0 - Promotional issue taking place prior to #1, [[Ghosts]] was not part of the ongoing storyline. ''This story was originally re-printed as a backup story in Transformers: Generaion 2 #2. It is not collected elsewhere.''

'''Transformers: Rage in Heaven''' <br/>
''Collects:'' Marvel Transformers: Generaion 2 #7-12 (UK #?-?)<br/>
ISBN 1-84023-528-4 <br/>
ISBN 1-84023-577-2 (hardcover)

===UK Collections===

====Color====
====Black & White====

===Non-Marvel Collections===

==Uncollected Material==
* [[G.I. Joe And The Transformers]] #1-4 - Marvel US's 1986 crossover. ''This story did not take place in the UK continuity- at least not before the changes wrought by [[Time Wars]].
* [[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]] #1-4 - Marvel's character profiles.
* [[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]] (various) - Character profiles printed as backups throughout the Marvel US run.

==External links==
*[http://www.titanbooks.com/transformers.html Titan Books: Transformers]

{{stub}}

[[Category: Comics]]
[[Category: Companies]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Unicron

2007-01-11T18:34:05Z

69.88.91.218:

==Greenycron==
In case people are wondering, that toy should really be under the "Mini-Con" entry, since the toy represents a Unicron doppelganger made up of countless Minis, not Unicron himself. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

== Rule Breaking Chaos Bringer?==

Looking at the entry it's kinda breaking the rule that the "Character Profile" section should not be continuity specific and should only contain continuity-neutral character/personality info. Unicron's here is most definately skeewed towards latter Armada era continuity and doesn't apply at all to his Movie/Cartoon self and story. Are we breaking the rule on him intentionally, or does it need fixing? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 02:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
:The currently operative retconned storyline is that there is only one Unicron, who travels the dimensions of the multiverse. Armada Unicron = G1 Movie/Cartoon Unicron = Marvel Unicron = Dreamwave Unicron. They're all the same guy, regardless of continuity. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

:: I know that but I don't think it *CAN* work with G1 cartoon. Like it or not there is no Primus in that Continuity and Unicron is NOT a god, just a big machine built by Primacron. The retcon hits a brick wall and cannot function in the G1 toon without a lot of fanfic-ing. You can't apply the retcon to the Cartoon here without ignoring the *ACTUAL* continuity and stories of the Cartoon in favor of some extremely different, never told, complicated immaginary story. Since the purpose of the Wiki is to inform factually about characters and their history then, I think factually, we have to say the way things actually were. Now granted the retcon can work most everywhere else (though it's a huge obvious retcon many places) so maybe it should get priority, but I'm just saying the main character profile does not work for the Cartoon version unless you want to start making a whole lot of stuff up. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 10:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

:::Hrm... I astuually kidna agree with Zac. Unicron got a new, huge backstory that was goignt o tie him into everything. "Dont' worry, we'll go back and explain hwo it all works." And then- they enver did. In fact, was the Unicron/Primus conenction witht he One ever actually used, anywhere OTHER than in a guidebook?
:::This entry needs to recognizse that... lapse. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

::::I'm not in the fan club, so I'm not up on how Unicron's backstory was dealt with in the Club Comic, but if it's been used anywhere that'd be the place I suspect. Something perhaps not directly related to this but interesting to note: Although it didn't mention The One or the multiverse, the Cybertron episode in which Primus woke up and transformed had Vector Prime descibe Primus thusly: "He who charted the universe when it was young. He who battled Unicron at the beginning of time." The charted the universe bit comes from the story with The One, right? But as I said, that's not directly related to that matter at hand.

::::At any rate, futher discussion on how this article should deal with Unicron's retconny-multiverality might best be put on hold a few days until folks currently at BotCon return to contribute to it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't see a problem with applying the retcon to the G1 cartoon. Unicron, probably disembodied from his previous rampage in some other dimension, found his way into that universe and simply influenced Primacron in some way (how is unimportant) into building a body that he then inhabited. There is no *mention* of Primus anywhere, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Probably the TFs didn't know he was there, or had long ago stopped believing he was real, and he was still asleep, so he never did anything himself. That's an explanation that requires very little gap-filling and allows the retcon to mesh perfectly with the cartoon.

:::On the other hand, Simon said at BotCon 06 that the IDW universe is probably not going to have Primus and Unicron in it, like, at all, which in my opinion *does* break the retcon. Or, retcons the retcon, if you prefer, such that those gods do not exist in every conceivable universe (or even every conceivable Transformers universe), but only in a bunch of them. He is intentionally writing a universe of which they are not a part, rather than simply writing a universe and not mentioning them. That, I think, will need to be dealt with. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

----

nice article [[User:24.3.227.249|24.3.227.249]] 04:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

==Additional Pic==

[[Image:Unicron_tfu_cdrom.jpg|thumb]]

{{-}}

== Planet Q ==
Planet Q was not consumed between Energon and Armada. Unicron was also put into stasis after Armada and remained that way. Alpha-Q's demise happened eons ago, right after Rodimus left Cybertron. It's confusing in the dub because it contradicts itself, but Super-Link has it spelled out correctly. Alpha-Q actually states he was lost in Unicron for "ages and ages, alone." which is what drove him to madness. The Energon dub never really explains what timeline all of this occurred and it seems the writers never really knew themselves. Another dub error is that Rodimus states Planet-Q put Unicron into stasis. This is not true, the story is exactly the opposite. Unicron survived just fine, hence why all the sparks from the planet were absorbed into his body as he carried on his world-ravaging. -Bodycount

Thanks. Unicron's a toughie. He has 30 zillion different conflicting stories and origins, but he's canonically all the same guy, and all of his appearances across the different continuities apparently happen in a sequential order. Which is a concept I love, but it's not so easy to reconcile detail-for-detail. [[User:ItsWalky]]

I have some nice pics of Unicron(inculding the battle dameged planet mode ala the Deathstar II, how do I upload them?[[User:X-BoB58]]

In the "toolbox" among the links on the left of your window is a link that says "upload file". Follow the instructions there. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Er Thanks, but I think I made the image a wee too big, is there anyway to make it a thumbnail?

We can get a better picture of Energon Unicron than that

I don't think we need so many similar pictures of Unicron in planet mode. I think the screenshot from the movie is enough, and the OTFCC Universe art is kinda pushing it. --ItsWalky

Unicron looks the exact same in the Armada comics and cartoon. One picture will do for both. X-Bob, stop pushing the image down into where there's no article yet. I put it where it is for a reason. --ItsWalky

Steve- feel free to muck with the Omega Point entry. I'm kinda considering going back and wiking the whole storyline-- it really needs some annotations. Maybe we can argue about the timeloops some more![[User:Derik]]

I feel that the Unicron trilogy (Micron trilogy in Japan) Generation section should be broken up between Dreamwave Continuity (the comics) and Animated Continuity (the TV shows.) I feel this way because a) The use of the phrase 'comics continuity' is too confusing when you have some comics liek Linkage and the Colelctor Club stuff in 'toon continuity. b) They should be by continuity, not by series because otherwise it just becoems too disjointed, and the contnections between the series are weak enough as it is. [[user:Derik]]

I agrea with Derik on this issiue [[user:X-BoB58]]

Why, int he TFU section, does it say Unicron was defeated by the Wreckers? I don't believe dhtere'd been any indications at all that Unicron had been connected to the Wreckers. (It's possible I suppose that this was an issue #4 revelation, but it was my impression that his appearances in TFU proceded from Tarantulus's machinations in Primaeval Dawn, not Wreckers.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Wreckers #4 would have told us that Cryotek's big plan was resurrecting Unicron. The Wreckers stop him before Unicron is fully restored, or blow him up and leave him half-there. That's where Universe picks up. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

: Since ''Wreckers'' #4 was never published, should that info even be in the article? Or shouldn't it at least be called out as apocryphal? Also, out of curiosity... how do you KNOW that's what would have happened? Did Glen say so at some point, or was there a script or artwork or something released online, or what...? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Were the Hasbro and Takara G1 Unicron protos different toys? I was under the impression they were two test-shots of the same mold.

:They're different moulds, I think, but based off the same basic proto, maybe. Takara's is noticably fatter, and has the cord coming from it. It also appears to have an open robot mode mouth, and the "moon" accessory (or perhaps this was a planet Unicron would electronically "eat," but IIRC early Unicronian concept art shows the moon, and all the Movie toys were based off earlier concept art, thusly...) What I'm getting at is that Takara's appears to be modified for electronics while the Hasbro proto has none. [[User:Onslaught Six|Onslaught Six]] 07:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

:: The Hasbro version had electronice in the chest below the head, as shown in the toy's patent. I'd give a link, but I can't get to it with the Allspark boards down. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

:::For the record, the Takara mold's torso at least is entirely different from the Hasbro one. It's even got an extra step in the transformation wherein the torso either opens out or extends (hard to tell from available shots) to copy movie Unicron's thinner midsection.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 22:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

<nowiki>*spots Willis's notes about Universe #4*</nowiki> That's stupid. I mean, Primal Prime hints darkly of a great failure he had before emerging onto modern Cybertron in Qpelinq's journals. And Primaeval dawn has his fighting Tarantulas, a spawn of Unicron, who turns up in Uncron in TFU. I assuemd he failed to stop Tarry in PD and failed, thus TFU. Why is Unicron coming out of effectively nowhere in Wreckers to ruin our interesting Quint plot? And how does Tarantulas arrive? Laaame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== sweet ==

right on, glad my Unicron History page made this section, I've worked my hide off trying to get it together and am glad that it can help!
ErikB
www.transformersontheshelf.com

=="Respawning"?==

What's the background on the statements, "His power is limited to one reality at a time, though he can move between them at will," and, "When Unicron is destroyed in one reality, he will respawn in another, ready to eat again"? [[Primus]] is described in his own article like so: "His body is the planet Cybertron. Primus' lifeforce (aka the Allspark) is a multiversal singularity; it exists across all Transformers realities." This duality - a single mind/metaspark/godhead that's spread across multiple physical bodies - is how I've intuited the "one-Primus/one-Unicron" retcon. Since each universe has its own Cybertron, so likewise it seems each universe should have its own Unicron-body. Why would there be any difference? In fact, some evidence in favor of the multiple-Unibodies model is in the ''Cybertron'' section of this article: "During the final battle, Unicron disappeared from their reality underneath them, sucked away into the Unicron Singularity in another timestream." If Uni only exists in one reality at a time, then how could his destruction in one universe happen while he was existent in another? The only evidence I can think of otherwise is that Uni entered the Armada-comic universe from elsewhere. But to me, that just means that either his original body in the Armada-comic universe had been destroyed, or that the Armada-comic universe was an oddball one that never HAD a Primus or a Unicron (like the IDW-verse is apparently going to be). - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
:Unicron's consciousness wasn't present in Universe, just his body. He wasn't in two places, and his Minions were merely trying to resurrect him with eaten spark energy. (That story bit is also from the same story we got the "Only one Unicron who travels across the multiverse" information, so it's not like it's two conflicting stories.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
::What story is that from? I just re-read the ''Universe'' comics, and I don't remember any of that being stated. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Fun Publications' Cybertron comics from the fan club magazine. First arc. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

::::The Autobots should camp on Unicron's respawn point and frag his ass. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
::::Okay, I've re-read those comics now, and I think I can see where you're getting that notion from. But it seems exceedingly vague to me, and I couldn't find anything about "respawning." Basically it comes down to Ramjet's ravings in issue #3: "Bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying more than one reality at a time. But Cybertron! Stable axis of the multiverse! One Cybertron, a multiplicity existing concurrently across the infinite realities! Destroy one aspect, and that reality soon crumbles. Cybertron persists, protected by the ordered mathematics of its own existence. A single, infinite curve across all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation. Unicron cannot destroy something that is everywhere without himself being everywhere, Prime. And at last, thanks to his new prison and its proximity to Cybertron, he has that chance!" [note: this is accompanied by visuals of a line of Cybertrons, all different, extending indefinitely]
::::That leaves me... unconvinced in the troublesomely literal retcon that this article conveys as truth. Consider that in the first issue, Vector Prime describes the multiverse: "Every movement sends out ripples, which spread out in concentric rings, interacting with ripples created by others, creating new patterns, new realities, branching possiblilities. Every moment is creation and destruction. Every action is a thrown stone, shattering the surface of time." This seems in keeping with the "branching realities" model that most TF multiversal fiction follows (such as the Marvel-comic Uni searching "possible futures" for a herald). But if Uni is literally confined to one reality at any given time, then he must be vanishing from timelines left and right. At every moment, tons of possibilities branch off from one another, and therefore Uni must spontaneously disappear from all but one of the various universes. That's just... stupid. It doesn't even make SENSE based on him being "imprisoned in a physical body." That body should keep existing in all the alternate universes, just like Earth and Cybertron and every OTHER physical body keep existing across the multiverse. Plus Ramjet's use of the term "infinite realities" would make Unicrons' job ultimately impossible. If he truly has to keep hopping from one universe to the next in a linear fashion, he'll never succeed. And yet he DID, once.
::::What makes more sense is that Ramjet's "one reality at a time" statement refers to how Uni has to attack each universe separately. Uni could conceivably assault two or more Cybertrons simultaneously, but that wouldn't result in the infinite-birds-with-one-stone chain reaction that feeding Cybertron to the black hole supposedly would.
::::Or, of course, Ramjet is just insane and doesn't know what he's talking about. Certainly he and Vector Prime have some metaphysical disagreements that they chat about while trying to kill each other.
::::The upshot here is that I think the "one reality at a time" idea should be presented either with more qualifiers or just in the "So-and-So's Story" section. Based on past experience, my analysis would probably be smacked down as "speculation." So, in order to keep the editors happy, I suggest putting Ramjet's notions - and possibly more - under attribution...ary headings. Strictly speaking, the only things that should go in the first few paragraphs are observed events and statements of omniscient narration. Ramjet is not an omniscient narrator. Does all this sound right? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::If Ramjet didn't know what he was talking about, then the entire fundamental conflict upon which that story was based was just a lie, and it was wasting our time, an idea I find appalling. Casting out a pretty deliberately stated backstory because it can be perceived as realistically improbable would start a dangerous precedent for the wiki, I think. Forest Lee created this story because he wanted to hash out the way the Unicron/Primus dynamic works and to forge the multiverse into a cohesive whole. I don't think it's the wiki's place to determine for Hasbro's fiction guy what he can and can't do. (Would it make you feel any better or worse that I confirmed my interpretation of the backstory with Dan Khanna, the co-plotter? This write-up wasn't just a shot in the dark.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Likewise, the Keeper's story was Furman's "truth" when he wrote it, and when he later revised it through the mouth of Primus himself, etc., etc. And I think the article handles those various "truths" perfectly by presenting them as "here's what so-and-so said." The more I think of it, the more it seems the ONLY appropriate thing is to add "Ramjet's Story" to the list. And, as for Khanna confirming the "respawning" thing (which I assume you're referring to), I think treating author intent as canon is ALSO a bad precedent. Author intent should be NOTED, but not presented as story-fact. Especially since the Unicron/Primus story will quite likely see MORE changes as time goes on. (Hell, the most recent ad for the DD Joe/TF crossover promises "the secret origin of Unicron" or some such.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::The Keeper's story was canon until something else retconned it. The same is true here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Granted I am not paying all that much attention, but, I think the current form of the article is okay. Jack's main concern, aside from disliking the current canonical explanation, seems to be that it's being presented more forcefully than the retconned explanations. But... I think that is valid, more or less for the reason Walky states here. The article is quite clear at the beginning of the "evolution" section that this is merely the most recent of many versions of the story. If/when it is invalidated, it can be moved. Under normal circumstances I would agree that different versions of a particular guy/story should be given equal footing, but since this "nature of Unicron" thing explicitly makes itself multiverse-spanning and overrides previous explanations, I think it should be given priority. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::::My original concern was that I had no idea where the idea CAME from, and now that I've carefully re-read the story in question, I'm still iffy. After a straight reading, I came to a different conclusion than the author apparently intended (hence my long "this don't make no sense" rant up there). Walky claims to have inside knowledge of the author's intent, and I question how much weight that should be given. To put it another way, were the Vok canonically the Swarm before it was actually put into writing in ''Wreckers''? And, to broaden the question further, are the Vok canonically the Swarm when we're just talking about the BW 'toon? The idea of one series having "retcon power" over everything that came before it is a new one in how the fandom has always looked at TF canon. Since we've never had a George Lucas to dictate what is and isn't mainstream "truth," everything got to live in its own separate "parallel universe," and that was that. The advent of multiversal storylines in TF fiction does complicate things, and this issue is a good one for testing how exactly we deal with canon now. My take is still that the story is the only "truth," author intent is noteworthy but not "canon," and ultimately every series exists unto itself by its own rules. - [[User:216.174.242.186|216.174.242.186]] 23:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Parts of this (the Geen 1 anime section) dont' seem very in-universe. -Derik18:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Watchdog (G1)

2007-01-08T23:51:03Z

69.88.91.218: quoth the raven.

{{disambig2|the Generation 1 patrol car|the Armada video-game Mini-Con|Watchdog (Armada)}}

:''A Watchdog is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Generation 1 (television series)|Sunbow]] portion of [[Generation 1]]

[[Image:Watchdog tud3.jpg|thumb|250px|"I have Reflector's color scheme!<br/>Make of that what you will."]]

'''Watchdog''' units are part of the Decepticon security net on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] under [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]. These hovercars patrol the roads of Cybertron, going where the traditional [[Seeker#Alternate terms|Tetrajet]] cannot.

They operate in pairs. They may or may not be drones.

==Fiction==
When [[Spike Witwicky|Spike]], [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]], [[Trailbreaker]] and... some other guys... pissed off Shockwave, he sent the entire Decepticon contingent on Cybertron after them. They shook every pursuer- except the Watchdogs.

They eventually managed to evade the watchdogs by ducking into the hidden entrance to Wheeljack's lab. The Watchdogs continued past.

[[Category: Decepticons]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Prime of Justice

2007-01-08T23:48:10Z

69.88.91.218: Why you hatin' on Justice Prime?

:''Prime of Justice is a title in the [[Generation 1]] continuity family.
[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] also holds the title of '''Prime of Justice'''.

In the [[Machine Era]], [[Primal Prime (BM)|Primal Prime]] held this title.

''Prime of Justice may be a lower office that Optimus Prime also holds as part of his duties as leader of the Autobots- in the same way the [[President of the United States]] is also Commander in Chief, and the Pope is also the holder of the only still-extant office of the Roman Empire. (In theory he approves leap years.)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Scorponok (G1)

2007-01-08T23:35:06Z

69.88.91.218:

Do you think Black Zarak should be considered a seperate character from Scorponok? He did have a different consciousness than Scorponok (with Devil Z in his noggin and Scorponok serving as nothing more than a power battery wired into the chest).--[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 04:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

no, because Scorponok is the little robot, and the big body is Megazarak/Black Zarak. (Scorponok was generally known as Black Zarak in MF, because he was permenantly wired into his transector, and never emerged.)

That he was posesses by Dark Nova is a null-issue. He's not Dark NOva, he existed for 20 episodes prior as a seperate character. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

So, hey, what with the use of Japanese names for Headmasters? We normally refer to characters from Japanese fiction with their American names, don't we? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
: In this case, the Japanese character is being considered different from the English character, so we only have the Japanese names to go on. We're not going to call Go Shuta or whoever "Siren." They're not the same guy, so it's a different case than, say, Stepper/Ricochet. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

::Well, yeah. I guess what my question really was was "Why are we considering them different characters?" I've been through this whole dealie before with the Headmasters DVD, and I can certainly see the logic in taking such an approach, but it's... are we going to create separate articles for Wipe and Skull, just because they have different names from their American counterparts? The differences that separate them from Mindwipe and Skullcruncher are no greater than those that separate Scorponok from MegaZarak. Of course, I'm a giant hypocrit, since I wouldn't contest this in the case of Fortress, so... yes, I really don't know what my point is. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I think Wipe and Skull can have their own pages. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I sorta see what you're getting at, Chris -- some of the Masterforce characters are really different from their different-name US couterparts, but some are pretty similar. So... we *could* evaluate it case-by-case, but, I think that would just make things more confusing. I'm inclined to treat all the Masterforce guys as different characters than their US counterparts, even when they are actually similar, just for the sake of uniformity. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 19:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
::::You mean Headmasters, right? But then, does that not technically mean we should be having articles like "Chromedome (US)" and "Chromedome (Headmasters)"? Personally, I'm more inclined to go the ''other'' way, and treat them as just being the same characters. If it's worth anything in the consideration, this ''is'' how it was done for the R2 Headmasters DVD. Um, except for Fortress. And that was mostly just based on the wordplay inherent in the name. Hence my hypocrisy. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

*Personally, I think we should just keep the "Wipes" in the "Mindwipe" articles but under the Japanese fiction sections just refer to them by their Japanese names as a means to differentiate. The US and Japanese characters are similar enough to warrant sharing space in one article and I don't think callig them by their Japanese names where appropriate would be too confusing to the readers (especially since there's a note at the beginning of each article listing the foreign names).

But that's just my fitty cents, dawgs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 21:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

:Headmasters = Different takes on the same characters.
:Junior Headmasters & Powermasters = Different characters. -Derik23:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Black Shadow (G1)

2007-01-08T23:31:54Z

69.88.91.218:

In regards to the "Space Mafia", Hydra just popped in with [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=21443&view=findpost&p=459151 this tid bit of info]. It would appear there is NO "space mafia", but rather, Doug Dlin took too much liberty with a translation. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

: I want the note to have the characters for 'U-chuu Gyan-gu', it make us look hardcore. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 23:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC) (I'm not above one-upsmanship.)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T23:48:21Z

69.88.91.218: /* Name Confirmation */

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

**That's pretty awesome, Monzo. I'm both interested in and deeply concerned by the idea of "Rapiron". [[User:Chip|Chip]] 23:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::...AWESOME Monzo, I'd actually been considering doing the exact same thing once the page-state matured. And ''ooh'', the other statues! You rocks!

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::I read it, but I don't understand what it means. We have ten markers in the wide shot and ten names. These ten markers and ten names seem to match Floro Dery's concept art. Are there other pictures of the hall where some markers are missing? I don't understand what your English means. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But there are '''twelve''' statues in the wide shot.
:::(I know, I know, math is hard.) -Derik 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Er- eleven, Floron got cut off. But you catch my meaning. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::You're counting the one up on the tower outside the Hall of Heroes? Isn't Dery part of the ten inside the actual area? Don't the shots of Floron and Dery individually depict them as next to the other statues? None of this is clear at all. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::So [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html use your eyes]. Dery is on the raised platform outside of the main hall. You can tell it's him on the outside in [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|the wide shot]], because the outermost one on the iside is holding a weapon in the wrong hand, unlike either Dery or Ghoulon. Here's [[:Image:Decepticon_markers.gif|another angle]].
:::::And '''yes''' damnit, Dery is on the outside! That's why the description calls him an ''outer'', and describes him as outside the hall. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 23:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T23:13:09Z

69.88.91.218: /* Layout of the page */ typos

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::I read it, but I don't understand what it means. We have ten markers in the wide shot and ten names. These ten markers and ten names seem to match Floro Dery's concept art. Are there other pictures of the hall where some markers are missing? I don't understand what your English means. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But there are '''twelve''' statues in the wide shot.
:::(I know, I know, math is hard.) -Derik 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Er- eleven, Floron got cut off. But you catch my meaning. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::You're counting the one up on the tower outside the Hall of Heroes? Isn't Dery part of the ten inside the actual area? Don't the shots of Floron and Dery individually depict them as next to the other statues? None of this is clear at all. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::So [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html use your eyes]. Dery is on the raised platform outside of the main hall. You can tell it's him on the outside in [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|the wide shot]], because the outermost one on the iside is holding a weapon in the wrong hand, unlike either Dery or Ghoulon. Here's [[:Image:Decepticon_markers.gif|another angle]].
:::::And '''yes''' damnit, Dery is on the outside! That's why the description calls him an ''outer'', and describes him as outside the hall. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 23:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T23:12:22Z

69.88.91.218: /* Layout of the page */

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::I read it, but I don't understand what it means. We have ten markers in the wide shot and ten names. These ten markers and ten names seem to match Floro Dery's concept art. Are there other pictures of the hall where some markers are missing? I don't understand what your English means. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But there are '''twelve''' statues in the wide shot.
:::(I know, I know, math is hard.) -Derik 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Er- eleven, Floron got cut off. But you catch my meaning. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::You're counting the one up on the tower outside the Hall of Heroes? Isn't Dery part of the ten inside the actual area? Don't the shots of Floron and Dery individually depict them as next to the other statues? None of this is clear at all. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::So [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html use your eyes]. Dery is on the raise platform outside of the main hall. You can tell it's him on the outside in [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|the wide shot]], because the outermost one on the iside is holding a weaon in the wrong hand, unliek either Dery or Ghoulon. Here's [[:Image:Decepticon_markers.gif|another angle]].
:::::And '''yes''' damnit, Dery is on the outside! That's why the description calls him an ''outer'', and describes him as outside the hall. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 23:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T22:31:31Z

69.88.91.218:

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::I read it, but I don't understand what it means. We have ten markers in the wide shot and ten names. These ten markers and ten names seem to match Floro Dery's concept art. Are there other pictures of the hall where some markers are missing? I don't understand what your English means. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But there are '''twelve''' statues in the wide shot.
:::(I know, I know, math is hard.) -Derik 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Er- eleven, Floron got cut off. But you catch my meaning. -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T22:29:55Z

69.88.91.218: /* Layout of the page */

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::I read it, but I don't understand what it means. We have ten markers in the wide shot and ten names. These ten markers and ten names seem to match Floro Dery's concept art. Are there other pictures of the hall where some markers are missing? I don't understand what your English means. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::But there are '''twelve''' statues in the wide shot.
:::(I know, I know, math is hard.) -Derik 22:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T22:00:44Z

69.88.91.218:

==Sourcing==
The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: It's when one attaches two sentences with a comma instead of with a period. Example: "Let's go to the store, cats are pretty cute." It would be corrected as "Let's go to the store. Cats are pretty cute." If you don't know what a comma splice is, that explains a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: Cats ARE pretty cute. And Murderon is an interesting name. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Name Confirmation==
I wrote to Floro Dery's website maintainer regarding the Hall of Heroes artwork on Dery's site and the difficulties in reading the names off it. I asked him if he could get Dery to confirm the names of the statues for me, and he relayed the following:

''There are 10 statues, 5 on each side.''

''On one side are: DERY, GHOULON, MURDRON, BLOODRON, DEVRON.''

''On the other side are: FLORON, GLADIARON, PINOY, RAPIRON, CANNIBARON.''

''He usually makes fun of his designs and so named them thus.''

So awesome. In my response I'll ask Dery's web guy if Dery is willing to scan the artwork featuring the statues on the opposite side. (I have to assume there IS some if they're named.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

*"Cannibaron" is a pretty kickass name. Just thought I'd bring it up. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 20:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Layout of the page==
What does this page mean by Floron and Dery being "outside the hall"? Aren't there just two rows of five to which Floron and Dery belong? The caption on the profile image seems to suggest there are the wrong number of statues depicted, but I don't see how that is. Is there a way to clean up this confusion? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Hall_of_heroes.jpg|Just look.]] Count from the inside out. Devron, Blodron, Murderon, Ghoulon-- all identifiable... wait, who is that?
:The matte painter added an extra marker on the inside of the hall in the wide shot. The outermost statue, prior to Dery, doesn't exist in the other shots.
:(I did a comparison a couple years ago when the original DVD 1st came out, and I think I concluded he was an amalgam of elements from the other statues, and that the animators must have cludged him together to fit the matte painting.)
:Gladiron is still the outermost on the ''right'' side.
:Since the statue in question clearly isn't '''there''' in the other shots, it didn't seem worth documenting-- aside from making it the first entry int he trivia section. Which you apparently didn't read. <small>(again)</small>
:I assumed that made it adequately documented- was I wrong? -Derik[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 22:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T17:05:15Z

69.88.91.218: /* Left side */ Shgakespeafe is uspposed to be spelled that way.

:''The Hall of Heroes is a location on [[Cybertron]] in the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].
[[Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|thumb|300px|Matte painters can't count.]]

The Decepticon '''Hall of Heroes'''<ref>Named in both the [[Marvel Comics]] adaptation and the Ladybird novelization of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]].''</ref> is filled with statues of the great Decepticon heroes of the past.

(''Psst!'' Decepticon Heroes = Villains.)

==Fiction==
===The Transformers: The Movie===
[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] was (briefly) inaugurated leader of the Decepticons in the Hall of Heroes. Shortly thereafter, [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] was unanimously declared leader by the remaining Decepticons. {{Storylink|The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|TFTM}}

==Figures==
The Decepticon Hall of Heroes is dominated by giant golden statues. The "inner" eight (four of each side) appear to be [[funeral markers]] for prominent Decepticons. Two more statues stand slightly outside of the Hall.

The names of all seven figures seen clearly in the finished movie are known.<ref>From the original concept art by designer [[Floro Dery]]. http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html</ref>

''Positions given are from the outside of the Hall of Heroes looking towards the throne.''

===Outer guardians===
Two statues stand on platforms just outside the Hall. These are the only two statue that do not appear to be funeral markers, and they do not follow the naming convention of the prominent Decepticons inside the Hall.

''(The outer guardians are named for <small>(and by)</small> movie designer [[Floro Dery]].)''

[[Image:Floron guardian.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Floron'''<br/>
Floron is the outer guardian on the right side of the Hall. His left hand ends in an axe, his right hand ends in a blaster.

Floron also guards the entryway to the [[Decepticon Crypt]], but he is on the left there.

{{-}}
[[Image:Dery guardian.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Dery'''<br/>
Dery is the outer guardian on the left side of the hall. He carries a blaster and wears a jetpack.

''In Floro Dery's design drawing, Dery-the-statue has a giant tail, similar to a lobster. This is less visible in the final film.''

{{-}}

===Left side===
The figures on the left side of the Hall of Heroes are funeral markers in the memory of prominent Decepticons.

''The figures on this side all appear to be based on classic monsters.''

[[Image:Ghoulon marker.jpg|right|150px|I had a dentist name Goulan.]]
'''Ghoulon'''<br/>
Ghoulon is the outermost figure on the left; he is a hulking figure with seemingly mottled, decaying outer skin.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Ghoul|Ghoul]]
{{-}}
[[Image:Mortron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Murderon'''<br/>
Murderon is the second-outermost figure on the left. He has a lean, whiplike figure and carries a gun in his right hand.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Spider-Man_villains#The_Burglar|Murderer]]

'''Note:''' ''There is debate as to Murderon's correct name. His label in the production art is very squinty, and could be read as: Murderon, Mortron, Mertron, Weretron, or William Shgakespeafe. 
{{-}}
[[Image:Blodron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Bloodron'''<br/>
Bloodron is the second-innermost figure on the left. He has sharp fangs. Though he wears a [[Capes|cape]] and a [[Wikipedia:Dickie|dickie]], Bloodron does not have a silly hat.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Count Chocula|Vampire]]
{{-}}
[[Image:Devron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Devron'''<br/>
Devron is the innermost figure on the left. He has prominent horns and wings, and he wears a loincloth ''rwar!''

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Gargoyles|Demon]]
{{-}}

===Right side===
The figures on the right side of the Hall of Heroes are also funeral markers in the memory of prominent Decepticons.

''Only the first figure is clearly seen, making it impossible to tell if there is a pattern to the figures on this side.''

[[Image:Gladiaron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Gladiaron'''<br/>
Gladiaron is the outermost figure on the right side. He has a bulky body and a large protective helmet.

''Based on:'' [[Wikipedia:Gladiator|Gladiator]]
{{-}}

==Trivia/Errors==
* The wide shot of the Hall of heroes accidentally adds an extra set of statues to the inner hall.

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html Floro Dery's production art of the Hall of Heroes on the Super Webi Web Page]
[[Category: Generation 1]]
[[Category: Planet Cybertron]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hall of Heroes

2007-01-05T16:39:27Z

69.88.91.218:

The Hall of Heroes was named in both Marvel's adaption of TFTM and the script itself, I believe. So I don't know if a Ladybird-exclusive reference is necessary.

(I'll have to double-check the Marvel adaption ref.) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: I doublechecked. It's indeed named in the Marvel adaptation.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

==Markers==
Some of this is way, way too speculative for me. I didn't want to take an axe to it - since neither administrator is around - but I am nonetheless registering my stance.

(Plus, where's Gladiaron?)
(Oh. There he is.)--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Which part is too speculative? That those are markers? They're IDENTICAL to the markers in Starscream's Ghost, down the art-deco pattern around the eternal flame. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:No. In specific, I am referring the parts about Floron and Dery. I am also not sure if one of those statues is supposed to be "Mortron" or "Murdron" - I had decided on Murdron, myself, but I admit the text is very blurry. The classic monster thing also only goes so far when it breaks down at Morton/Murdron, who couldn't have been based on a ''Halo'' race twenty years ago.
::I admit the mythic thing ''is'' speculation-- but they're giant statues at the Hall of heroes-- but unliek the ''other'' giant statues, they're not funeral markers. They're non-funeral-marker statues.
::What else makes ''sense''? If they were great historical warriors used as outer guardians- why not make them funeral markers too? The only reason I can think of they wouldn't be markers is if they never existed or existed and never died.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:The speculation on one side being leaders and the other being warriors is also effectively baseless. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::That's fair, I've deleted it from the article.
::My original reason for the inclusion was the [[:Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|heil hitler]] from the second figure on the right side- and a side of military guys (Ghengis Kahn, Marcus Augustus etc) seems like an aesthetically-pleasing counterpoint to the movie monsters-- that I freely admit it's entirely speculation.
::Hey, can you figure out what [[:Image:Mortron marker.jpg|Mortron]] is supposed to be? I'm not even 1005 sure I got the name right, I got that after [http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html crossing my eyes] a few times.
:::That looks like more like "Murkeron" than "Mortron" to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Looks like Murderon to me. There's definitely a "E" before the "R". [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 18:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with claiming that Mortron was based on a monster from a HALO? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
: No. That's insane. I changed it to Warrior for the time being. If there's something more appropriate, we can change it later. He's got a whip and a gun, so maybe if there were a generic term for Indiana Jones... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::He has a whip?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::: Well, you said he has a lean whip-like thing. And oh dear lord I just noticed the comma splices. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::What's a comma splice? -Derik16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Ultra Magnus (G1)

2007-01-05T16:37:21Z

69.88.91.218: Some UK stuff

Since Ultra Magnus didn't feature in the US comic, I'd suggest that we forego the usual italics for UK material on this entry, but just note that Magnus was only in the UK comics.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The cartoon entry conflates events from japanese continuity and american. That's not right. Also the link under reconfiguration matrix talks about him dying and being granted a new body ect... where's that from, since it hasn't been followed up here yet.
: It's from eHobby Laser Magnus' profile. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

==Timeline==
I tried to re-organize Magnus's timeline to make more sense. I am not sure if I succeeded. I also removed the bit about Astrotrain and Reflector spying from the Scramble City OVA section because that not only took place in the ''manga'', but before Ultra Magnus was ''introduced''. Although I guess Magnus may still have been in charge of the project at that point, I don't think anyone can say for certain. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 08:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

==Dion==
Just curious.
Fact: Magnus' inner robot and Optimus' robot mode are identical.
How does this fact benefit the argument that Dion is Ultra Magnus? Dion is not identical to Orion Pax, is he?
[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 14:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
: Does the article state that this benefits the argument? I'm confused why you would bring it up. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
: Ah. Better reading comprehension! I just noticed the "Just curious." I think the reason the "Dion is Ultra Magnus" theory believes Ultra Magnus and Optimus Prime are brothers is because Alpha Trion rebuilt them both. After all, Alpha Trion rebuilding Orion Pax makes him his father, apparently, so if Alpha Trion rebuilt both of them, and he's both of their fathers, that makes them brothers. (It also makes Elita One their sister, which is why I like to think that little revelation made Prime go all "Uh... gotta go home now, see you never" at the end, but ahahahaha...) Ultra Magnus' inner robot and Optimus Prime look the same, which is another argument for Alpha Trion rebuilding both of them.
: Me, I don't think I care one way or the other. I don't think it's what the writers intended, certainly, but that can always be expanded on by later writers if they wish. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::You don't think that's what the writers intentioned? Late season 2 episode, the movie had already been planned and was well into production, and they went out of their way to make the Elita-1 connection... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I don't think that's what the writers intended because some writers have explicitly said in interviews that they weren't writing in anticipation of the movie at all. Rather, they were expressly ignoring it. If Dion was "meant" to be somebody, it would've had to have been a contemporary, like Ironhide. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::...I guess I really dont' have a strong opinion on this. I '''don't''' think the note should read 'may possibly be', since I think the Magnus/Dion connection is well established by this point through various sources. I would prefer somethign like- "He's probably Dion, though there is no explicit proof."
::(Of course, then you need to add a note about how in the Marvel UK continuity, Magnus was a fairly ecently-recreated Autobot, and has no conenction to Prime at all.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Uh, no. Give me these sources where the Magnus/Dion connection is 'well-established'. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 19:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::: "well-established" = "some fans won't shut up about it despite the lack of any, you know, actual proof or anything." --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

:::::<nowiki>*rolls eyes*</nowiki> Well, the BEST one wouldbe RiD, where magnus says he and Prime were build (or rebuilt, i forgret ehich and haven't hit that ep with my DVD's yet) by Alha Trion together.
:::::But hey, let's go on pretending RiD is a completely seperate, unrelated-to-G1-at-all continuity. The relationship may be bastard cousin...
:::::Does Magnus's Team Dion in Dreamwave count? Or does that fall into 'no, that's an easter egg'? 'cuz... it's an easter egg... about him bing Dion. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::I don't see how either have anything remotely to do with the G1 cartoon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::If Dion and Iron Pax exist in mroe than just cartoon continuity, I dont' have to be discussing the cartoon. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::So all your evidence comes from continuities where there's no evidence that Dion (or Orion Pax, for that matter) existed at all. I remain unconvinced. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 20:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::: In Dreamwave continuity, Optimsu was once known as Optronix- "or Orion to his friends." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::And? [[User:Singularity|Singularity]] 05:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::::: And, if not on Magnus's page, then on Dion, there should be a 'while interviews indicate {{Tooltip|Dion was not meant to be anybody|evidence is circumstantial, but likely}}, post-universal references tend to link him to Ultra Magnus. ''This would not necessarily apply to the cartoon of course.'''
::::::::: I think the current entry under Magnus is unnecessariyl dismissive of the conenction, when there actually IS some reasont o make such a conenction- albeit not int he G1 'toon. (whose 'evidence' is merely circumstantial.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
:Reading the article again, I still don't see what identical robot modes has to do with Dion. I can see an argument about Optimus and Megnus being brothers based on looking alike. But I don't see how "Magnus looks like Optimus, therefore Magnus is Dion" is true. The fact that Dion does not look like Orion Pax works against the "Dion is Magnus" theory. The article uses "Identical Robot Modes" as support for the DiM theory. Why? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::Dion and Orion Pax were not identical. When Alpha Trion ''rebuilt them both'', then they were identical. Or so the theory says. The rebuilding is where the identical-ness took place. Alpha Trion is their common designer. I thought I had made that clear. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Does this rebuilding of Dion happen in the cartoon, or is it just made up? Are we just making stuff up to support are arguments? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 20:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::What the hell are you talking about? Of course it doesn't happen. I never said any of it did, nor do I even endorse the theory. But the subject of Dion's identity is, regardless, one of much debate, to the point of being acknowledged in later official fictions. Did you even read the portion of the actual article regarding this? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
::::: What the hell are YOU talking about? Of course I've read it. That's why I'm asking these questions. The article makes no sense on this subject. "It has been speculated by some fans that, in Cartoon continuity, Ultra Magnus may have been created from Orion Pax's friend Dion, the same way and at the same time Prime and Elita One were rebuilt by Alpha Trion. The fact that Magnus's inner robot (though never seen in the Cartoon) is the same design as Prime and the apparently close and old friendship the two share are pointed to as supporting this." This is what the article said earlier today. To paraphrase: "Ultra Magnus may have once been Dion. The fact that Magnus and Optimus have the same robot mode supports this." What the hell does that mean? That doesn't make sense. But, because that info is no longer in the article, this discussion moot. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 04:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::: I didn't write the original paragraph. I'm only trying to explain it, and that's all I've been attempting to do. What I was confused about is why you think "we" are making stuff up. I am not making up anything. I am telling you what other people are making up. It's very aggravating, as I thought I answered your question (re: what other people are making up and why, just to be absolutely clear) in my first reply on this page, before being accused of fathering outrageous lies. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::: I thank you for helping me understand this, but your original reply did not answer my questions. I don't mean to accuse you of any lies. "We" was referring to the fandom in general. It's very aggrivating for ME, trying to understand this thing. The new information on the Dion page does a great job explaining it. I'm sorry for being such a pain in the ass. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 14:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

== Some UK stuff ==

[[Talk:Reproduction#Matrix Flame and Magnus ?|This bit is important.]] -Derik16:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Optimus Prime (G1)

2007-01-05T16:30:44Z

69.88.91.218: /* Splitting */

==Splitting==
I am proposing that we split Optimus Prime's toy section off into a separate article - "See list of Optimus Prime (G1) toys" or something equivalent, as Wikipedia does. The article as a whole is really long and is only going to get longer, and it seems like a logical place for a split. Thoughts? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 11:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

:As long as I get to create it, since I largely wrote the toy section myself. You're not stealing my pointless Internet Glory, you jerkfaces. You have the faces of several jerks! --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::I vote [[Optimus Prime (G1) toys]], rather than List of X. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::A disambig ''prior'' to the end of the article? That's crazy-talk!
:::(Of course, the alternative is Optimus Prime toys (G1), which is just plain wrong.) -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 16:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

==Old crap==
I vote that we keep this article blank untill the last possible moment

This isn't a democracy, X-BoB. It's the Internet.
You fail at wiki.

I think this article should be done as soon as possible. Because of, y'know its massive importance and stuff.
[[User:BeastWarrior|BeastWarrior]] 08:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't we refeare to Optimus Prime as Convoy in the articles on the JPN shows?

Sentenial Prime shouldn't be in the first paragraphs, as he's not in all contuities
JMO-X-BoB58

It warrants discussion - after all, he is the most powerful of the Go-Bots...

==Dreamwave Continuity==
The article says: "Optimus Prime started life as Optronix (Orion to his friends)"

Does anyone have an issue reference for this (the Orion part)? I admit that my DW knowledge isn't too great, but I don't recall this.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It's from the Keepers Trilogy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
:That explains it, then. I don't really consider the Keepers Trilogy as canon, never having bothered to read it. However, since it ''is'' official, it's appropriate here.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 17:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

::Cannon's a touch call witht he Keepers Trilogy. The Optronix thing, for isntance, was originalyl drafter for Optimus Prime's MtMtE profile (IIRC) but the MTMTE thing was drasticly re-tooled midway through, and so it didn't make it intot he entry-- but apparently Scott Ciencen had access to a draft of it which he used for Prime's backstory.

::As for the Keepers Trilogy's overall continuity... it doesn't mesh any WORSE than the first Dreamwave mini-series. (Faint praise though that be.) Plus it made some definite motions to align itself mroe closely to the comcis co ntinuity at the endof the 3rd book. ...and if I remember my timeline right, Superion's head showed up in Anihilation before it would have been written into TF#0. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

==Stuff==
"Auntie" was, so far as I know, not an acronym. As well, it was definitely the name for the Ark's computer in the US, so I removed the italics as I didn't think those events/reasonings were UK-specific.

As well, the Intraformers competition is not from the UK - it's from Sureshot's Transformers: Universe profile. But as I didn't look it up yet, I wasn't sure if I should un-italize the mention of "before he was named Optimus Prime" that's mentioned with it. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:Marvel continuity, from the intraformers sharpshooting competition arose, never had a 'pre optimus Prime.' He was always just Optimus Prime. (And was called such even when a junior officer, as seen in the Underbase saga.)
:Optimus Prime was a gifted athlete beginning to study for a medical profession when the war broke out. Presumably the shooting competition was part of Prime's athlete days- shooting is an Olympic sport after all. (Well,part of one.)
:If you want to split the difference on the entry, I suggest changing 'before he was named Optimsu Prime' to either ''before the war began'' or ''before the war began in earnest.'' The latter is only loosely justified by the text of comics continuities (the city-ststes had standaign armies and apparently fought- the great games were suppsoed to be a formalized sublimation of this) but it does have the marit of fitting well with War Dawn (and thus fits the new post* continuities which've come along that smosh both continuities together) without actually being '''wrong''' in the context of its original occourence. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
::And it's not like civilians don't do shooting sports as a hobby or anything. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 04:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

== Beast Wars Primal ==

Do we want to include the BW Bat Primal and the first MUNKY Primal as toys of Prime? In all one piece of media Bat Primal appeared in, he was definintly Prime with a new name, and the same can be said for Ultra MUNKY's specs. I can't remember if it's been brought up before, but if it has, I can't find it.
: It's been a topic of discussion, but I think most of it has kept to IRC so far. The red/blue "Convobat" from Japan may even have text on the back that says it's the original Prime, and the purple alligator Megatron that came with it has text that mentions a Walther P38, but we haven't pursued further translation. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
::Actually, we did, and it specifically says on both of them that they used to have those modes and are now animals. The problem, of course, is whether that makes them any more "really" Prime and Megatron than the US versions, or for that matter the Ultra toys in either country. Remember that Japan didn't even get a yes-or-no on whether they were the same guys until Metals. My personal preference would probably be to consider all of them Primal and BW Megs toys, despite how much I want the CD guys to be the G1 characters, or else we get into a bizarre continuum of "bat is Prime/ape is both/TM is Primal" which is confusing and not helpful, I think. -[[User:LV|LV]] 01:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

== Kiss Players ==

This bio says the EDC was bringing Convoy's remains from the battle of Autobot City. I hadnt' seen this in any of the other stuff i read, so could someone confirm that for me? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
: That info was put in by Swift, who seriously knows his Kiss Players stuff. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

::Thank you Walky. To express my gratitude, I shall try to be less of a dumbass in the future. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that reputation, but I suppose I brought it on myself. And yeah, lots of KP story material places it as a direct follow-up to the movie.--[[User:Swift|Swift]] 16:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Follows the movie- but not trying to be compatale with season 3, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
::::Wait, naughty-surfer Marissa Fairborne. That was a stupid question. '''I recind it!''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::I think it helps that Japanese season 3 takes place 4 years after this, since it's all up in 2010 instead of 2006. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
::::::Oh, right, I forgot, the 5-years-in-which-Daniel-does-not-appear-to-age. That DOES change things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
:::::::They do seem to be taking pains to make it all sort of fit in. Hot Rod's backstory says he gave up the Matrix and reverted from Rodimus, too. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 19:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

==Pudding==
MSTF running gag. "First darkness... then... light... then, pudding, I don't know why." Since then, PUDDING has come up in regards to Prime a bit frequently. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 00:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

==Toy's Pics==
It's a little detail, but the pic used for the [[Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#20th_Anniversary.2FMasterpiece|20TH Anniversary MasterPiece Convoy Optimus Prime]] is kind of wrong: I think it's a testshot model that has never been sold (battle damage with long stacks and wrong light's feet colors) Also, he is a lille misstransformed as the matrix "hidder" is on the wrong side.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Ultra Magnus (G1)

2007-01-05T16:28:25Z

69.88.91.218: /* Marvel Comics UK continuity */

{{disambig3|Ultra Magnus}}

:''Ultra Magnus is an [[Autobot]] in the [[Generation 1]] continuity family.''

[[Image:Ultramagnusg1.jpg|250px|right|thumb|He can't deal with you right now!]]

'''Ultra Magnus''' feels he is a soldier and nothing more. He very much prefers taking orders to giving them, and even avoids opportunities for higher responsibility. But when he is forced into those opportunities, he betrays his real talent for the job. He's strong, resolute, dependable, selfless, and courageous. Sadly, Ultra Magnus is the only Autobot who doesn't realize this.

Believing he is nothing but a soldier, Ultra Magnus is perfectly willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good if need be. He knows he's more powerful than the average Autobot, and will throw himself at larger threats accordingly. There is a special enmity between he and [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] for this reason, for Galvatron may be the most deadly foe of all.

He is possibly [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s brother.

''Italian name:'' '''Convoy'''

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
Voice actors: [[Robert Stack]] → [[Jack Angel]] (US); [[Show Hayami]] (Japan)

By 2005, Ultra Magnus was the full-fledged City Commander for [[Autobot City]]. Autobot City was under his authority when Megatron and the Decepticons waged their full-scale attack. Ultra Magnus ordered [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] and [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] to transform it to battle-mode, but it only held the Decepticons off for so long. In the fight, [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] was mortally wounded and passed the [[Matrix]] of Leadership on to Ultra Magnus, making Magnus the new Supreme Commander of the Autobots.

Autobot City was quickly attacked a second time by [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], the upgraded version of [[Megatron (G1)| Megatron]]. Ultra Magnus lured him away on his shuttle, but was eventually shot-down onto the [[Junkion (planet)|Planet of Junk]]. Galvatron tracked him there and Ultra Magnus managed to draw him away from the other Autobots to face the enemy alone. Magnus attempted to open the Matrix, but the Matrix would not open, and Ultra Magnus was blown to pieces. Galvatron took the Matrix, intending to use it to destroy [[Unicron]].

After the Autobots befriended the [[Junkion]]s, they used their expertise to rebuild Ultra Magnus. Magnus joined the other Autobots in the battle with Unicron on [[Cybertron]] and helped drive the last of the Decepticons from their home planet.

In 2006 (or 2010, if you're Japanese), Magnus ceased his role as a City Commander and became head-adviser to [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]], the new Supreme Commander of the Autobots and chosen one of the Matrix. At various times he was [[The Killing Jar|sucked into a black hole]], [[Only Human|turned into a synthetic human]] and [[Surprise Party|had a birthday party]].

When the [[Hate Plague]] possessed all of Earth and Cybertron, Ultra Magnus singled Rodimus Prime out of all the other Autobots and focused all his rage on him, vowing to track him wherever he went. Ultra Magnus was eventually cured of the Hate Plague when Optimus Prime came back from the dead (again).

Some time later, Ultra Magnus helped defend Autobot City from a massive Decepticon assault, which was actually a diversion for the theft of the key to the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]]. Subsequent to the battle and discovery of the theft, Magnus accompanied Optimus Prime on a shuttle to Cybertron. After Prime got the answers he needed from [[Vector Sigma]], he decided to go to [[Nebulos]] and left Ultra Magnus in charge of Cybertron.

Ultra Magnus' tenure didn't go very well, as the selfsame massive Decepticon assault force was attacking the planet. Nonetheless, he and the [[Protectobot]]s struck at Galvatron, and may well have done him in if [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]'s reinforcements hadn't arrived. Magnus then ignominiously had his [[power pack]] torn out and slowly began to die from lack of energon. Still, he was able to relay Galvatron's crazed scheme to Optimus Prime and the Autobot [[Headmaster]]s before blacking out.

When Ultra Magnus next awoke, the Golden Age of Cybertron had come anew, and the Decepticons were seemingly defeated once and for all.

====Japanese animated continuity====

=====''Scramble City'' OVA=====
Voice actor: [[Banjō Ginga]] (Japan)

''(Note: Scramble City takes place before the events of [[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Transformers the Movie]].)''

Ultra Magnus first came to Earth around the year 1986 to head-up the [[Scramble City]] (AKA [[Autobot City]]) project. Under his supervision, [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] was built. Unfortunately, Metroplex was discovered by the spy [[Ratbat]] under Ultra Magnus' watch, who leaked the location back to Megatron.

=====''The Headmasters''=====
Voice actor: [[Hōchū Ōtsuka|Yoshitada Ōtsuka]] (Japan)

Ultra Magnus continued his work as Commander of Autobot City on Earth and was instrumental in several victories over the Decepticons. Because of this, [[Sixshot (G1)|Sixshot]] singled him out for assasination. Ultra Magnus and Sixshot engaged in a one-on-one duel outside Autobot City, and Ultra Magnus was completely wrecked by Sixshot's six transformations. He was finally done in by Sixshot's mysterious 7th transformation, "Wingwolf". After his death, Ultra Magnus was placed in a coffin and buried on Earth, the planet he loved so dearly.

====Japanese manga====
=====Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformer=====

''(The "Fight! Super Robot Life Transformer" manga takes place before the events of Transformers the Movie and around the events of Scramble City)''

Ultra Magnus first appeared to deliver Optimus Prime his trailer, containing a special cannon upgrade, the "Scramble Power Buster". They engage the Decepticons in battle and Ultra Magnus and Optimus Prime team-up to defeat the villains with their "Convoy Magnus Double Cross Kick".

''(The manga specifically notes that Optimus Prime looks upon Ultra Magnus as his "Kid Brother". Although the manga is a suppliment to the TV series, this family-dynamic between the two characters was never used in the cartoon.)''

=====The Transformer=====

=====Transformer: Big War=====

====''Kiss Players'' continuity====

When [[Rodimus Prime]]'s defeat of [[Galvatron]] in 2005 led to the catastrophic destruction of [[Tokyo]], the new Autobot leader was consumed by guilt. He passed on the [[Matrix]] to Ultra Magnus in order to revert to [[Hot Rod]] and return to [[Earth]].

===Marvel Comics UK continuity===
Ultra Magnus was created just prior to the 'present,' and Operation Volcano was his first mission.

===Blackthorne Transformers In 3-D continuity===

===PD Type mini-comics===

At one point, the [[Blackball]] was left in the safekeeping of Ultra Magnus. Galvatron, catching Magnus by surprise, managed to blow him up with a powerful energy blast from his fusion cannon. Recovering the Blackball, Galvatron began to gloat about his victory. That's when Magnus' body hurled his head at Galvatron like a bowling ball, causing the [[Emperor of Destruction]] to fall over like a set of pins and drop the Blackball. That's ''using your head'', Magnus! *sigh*

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
[[Image:Magnuslongshot.jpg|left|thumb|250px|And then Takara saw this and were all like, "Oh, crap, that's right, we can do redecos, can't we?"]]
{{-}}

===IDW comics continuity===

==Notes==

*It has been speculated by some fans that, in animated continuity, Ultra Magnus may have been created from Orion Pax's friend [[Dion]], the same way and at the same time Prime and [[Elita One]] were rebuilt by [[Alpha Trion]].
:''For further elaboration, see [[Dion#Who_is_Dion.3F|Who is Dion?]].''

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
* '''Ultra Magnus'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-69'''
===Generation 2===
* '''Laser Ultra Magnus''' (eHobby)
: Laser Magnus was packaged in the reissue Laser Optimus Prime's box, along with Prime's instructions, bio card and sticker sheet. Yes, the stickers that have "Optimus Prime" written on them.

===Masterpiece===
* '''Ultra Magnus'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-02'''

===Classics===
*'''Ultra Magnus'''
: A [[redeco]] of the Voyager class Optimus Prime, this release is part of the Target [[exclusive]] ''Battle for Autobot City'' set with [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]].

===Titanium Series===
*'''Ultra Magnus''' (6-inch Cybertron Heroes, 2007)
: A new sculpt of Ultra Magnus was shown at [[BotCon 2006]]. For the first time, Ultra Magnus's cab and trailer are one piece, rather than a [[partsformer]] like the earlier version of the character.

*'''Ultra Magnus''' (6-inch Cybertron Heroes, 2007)
: A [[redeco]] of the 6-inch War Within Optimus Prime. In white!

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1986/Autobot/UltraMagnus/ultramagnus.htm Ultra Magnus at TFU.info]
*[http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Ultra_Magnus Ultra Magnus' Universe profile at NTFA.net]

{{stub}}
[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: Autobot leaders]]
[[Category: Classics]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category: Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category: Headmasters characters]]
[[Category: Titanium Series]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Hall of Heroes

2007-01-04T23:12:46Z

69.88.91.218: /* Outer Guardians */

:''The Hall of Heroes is a location on [[Cybertron]] in the [[Generation 1]] continuity family.
[[Image:Hall of heroes.jpg|thumb|300px|Matte painters can't count.]]

The Decepticon '''Hall of Heroes'''<ref>Named in both the [[Marvel Comics]] adaptation and the Ladybird novelization of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]].''</ref> is filled with statues of the great Decepticon heroes of the past.

(''Psst!'' Decepticon Heroes = Villains.)

==Fiction==
[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] was (briefly) inaugurated leader of the Decepticons in the Hall of Heroes. Shortly thereafter, [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] was unanimously declared leader by the remaining Decepticons. {{Storylink|The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|TFTM}}

===Generation 1 Marvel UK Comics===

''In 2008, [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] had his throne-room in the Hall of Heroes, or somewhere quite like it. A statue of the fallen [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] had been erected by this time.''

==Figures==
The Decepticon Hall of Heroes is dominated by giant golden statues. The "inner" eight (four of each side) appear to be [[funeral markers]] for prominent Decepticons. Two more statues stand slightly outside of the Hall.

The names of all seven figures seen clearly in the finished movie are known.<ref>From the original concept art by designer [[Floro Dery]]. http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/command.html</ref>

''Positions given are from the outside of the Hall of Heroes looking towards the throne.''

===Outer Guardians===
Two statues stand on platforms just outside the Hall. They do not follow the naming convention of the prominent Decepticons inside the Hall. Additionally, these are the only two statue that do not appear to be funeral markers.

''(The outer guardians are named for <small>(and by)</small> movie designer [[Floro Dery]].)''

[[Image:Floron guardian.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Floron'''<br/>
Floron is the outer guardian on the right side of the Hall. His left hand ends in an axe, his right hand ends in a blaster.

Floron also guards the entryway to the [[Decepticon Crypt]], but he is on the left there.

{{-}}
[[Image:Dery guardian.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Dery'''<br/>
Dery is the outer guardian on the left side of the hall. He carries a blaster and wears a jetpack.

''In Floro Dery's design drawing, Dery-the-statue has a giant tail, similar to a caterpillar or a lobster. This is less visible in the final film.''

{{-}}

===Left Side===
The figures on the left side of the Hall of Heroes are funeral markers in the memory of prominent Decepticons.

''The figures on this side all appear to be based on classic monsters.''

[[Image:Ghoulon marker.jpg|right|150px|I had a dentist name Goulan.]]
'''Ghoulon'''<br/>
Ghoulon is the outermost figure on the left; he is a hulking figure with seemingly mottled, decaying outer skin.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Ghoul|Ghoul]]
{{-}}
[[Image:Mortron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Murderon'''<br/>
Murderon is the second-outermost figure on the left, he has a lean, whiplike figure and carries a gun in his right hand.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Warrior|Warrior]]
{{-}}
[[Image:Blodron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Bloodron'''<br/>
Bloodron is the second-innermost figure on the left, he has sharp fangs. Though he wears a [[Capes|cape]] and a [[Wikipedia:Dickie|dickie]], Bloodron does not have a silly hat.

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Count Chocula|Vampire]]
{{-}}
[[Image:Devron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Devron'''<br/>
Devron is the innermost figure on the left, he has prominent horns and wings, and he wears a loincloth ''rwar!''

''Monster:'' [[Wikipedia:Gargoyles|Demon]]
{{-}}

===Right Side===
The figures on the right side of the Hall of Heroes are also funeral markers in the memory of prominent Decepticons.

''Only the first figure is clearly seen, making it impossible to tell if there is a pattern to the figures on this side.''

[[Image:Gladiaron marker.jpg|right|150px]]
'''Gladiaron'''<br/>
Gladiaron is the outermost figure on the right side. He has a bulky body and a large protective helmet.

''Based on:'' [[Wikipedia:Gladiator|Gladiator]]
{{-}}

==Trivia/Errors==
* The wide shot of the Hall of heroes accidentally adds an extra set of statues to the inner hall.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category: Generation 1]]
[[Category: Planet Cybertron]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Titanium moose-bot

2007-01-02T22:20:25Z

69.88.91.218:

A '''Titanium moosebot''' is a surprisingly aerodyanmic form of wildlife, presumably native to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. They are very resilient at low temperatures, as it takes intense cold to freeze their ailerons off. {{storylink|Fire on the Mountain}}

[[category:Cybertronic wildlife]]
[[category:Generation 1]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Slaarg

2006-12-21T16:15:56Z

69.88.91.218: Needs categories

:''Slargs are scavengers in the [[Generation 1]] continuity family

'''Slargs''' are a type of scavenger that survives on scraps. They are considered nonthreatening, and comparison to them is insulting.

''It is unclear if Slargs are native to [[Cybertron]] or not, they may be one of the life forms native to [[Charr]].

==Fiction==
==Sunbow Cartoon==
{{Storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 1|FFOD1|float=right}}
[[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] derisively compares the exiled Decepticons' squabbling over their dwindling [[energon]] supply to the behavior of Slargs.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Units of time

2006-08-01T19:01:39Z

69.88.91.218:

Given the many DIVISIONS of Cycle, and the disagreement of terminology (Megacucle is used as everythign from hour to years) I suggest makign this the page for the various verions of cycle. Decacycle, megacycle, Gigacycle, etc.

And fore refernece, TF's first use of Cycles was Target 2006, whcich established that 1 cycle was EXACTLY 2 Earh Hours. -Derik19:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Thrull

2006-07-31T17:55:53Z

69.88.91.218:

[[Image:Thrull.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Madman's Paradise]]

'''Thrull''' was the planet that [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] ended up on after being thrown out of [[Unicron|Unicron's]] body. It orbits the red giant star, '''Hydran'''.

Spending such a long time buried in one of Thrull's pools of lava plasma severly damaged Galvatron's mind, driving him stark-raving mad.

After violently attacking his own troops for attempting to steal him away from his "kingdom of desolation", Galvatron left Thrull, but not before he could destroy the planet for no reason at all while cackling wildly.

Galvatron's pretty crazy.

''[[Dreamwave]] produced a poster of Galvatron emerging from his lava bath where the planet was mispelled 'Thrall'.

[[Category: Planets]]
[[Category: Generation 1]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Hojoni

2006-07-31T17:29:13Z

69.88.91.218:

I vote that all links for Godzilla on this wiki actually go to Hojoni. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Further, I suggest merging the Big Green Fire-Snortin' Lizard article into this one, while of course maintaining the notes that it's only supposition that Hojoni is the lizard being referred to by Nicolas. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 16:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

:Nick maystill eb referign to Godzilla, and Hojoni is a fictional movie based on Godzilla's real-world rampages. (But I don't remember that naked woman in the Godzilla series...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

::Right, but, the point -- partially in jest, and partially from a strict reading of the stories -- is that there is no evidence for a Godzilla within the universe of the Marvel Transformers series, just as there is no evidence that Nicholas is the head of this organization called SHIELD or that Spider-Man got his powers from a spider bite. Supposing the subject of Nicholas' comment to be Godzilla requires applying metatextual elements from ''outside'' the Transformers multiverse. Supposing it to be Hojoni is a much more common metatextual statement ''within'' the TF multiverse. Now, yes, because we read other comic books we know that Nicholas' last name is Fury and blah blah blah. But we could surmise the existence of all sorts of Marvel Earth-616 entities in the comics universe at the slightest hint that they might exist --like, hey, the Neo Nights are kind of like mutants, I guess the X-Men exist in that universe. I can say without a hint of joking around that I think that is a bad trend to start. It is both "safer" and IMO way funnier to treat Hojoni as the only known giant green fire-breating lizard in Transformers. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

::Neither do I. Where's the category for naked people? :) --[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 04:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
:::"Category: Transformers" --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I think it's clear that "Nicholas" was meant to be Nick Fury, and that the lizard he was referring to was meant to at least be a refrence to Godzilla, if not literally. Connecting the comment by Nicholas to Hojoni would be pure speculation. [[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 15:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::It's a running gag on this wiki to (for the most part) pretend ignorance about MU characters in TF comics beyond their appearance in the TF comics themselves.
:::::This is not entirely withotu merit- the TF comcis are nto set in Earth 616. They're set in some other Earth that has some characters from 616, and some universe elements, but it not 616.
::::: (The Marvel TFU has mutants, for isntance, but does nto appear to have an X-Men.) -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 17:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Constructicon (G1)

2006-06-28T14:53:01Z

69.88.91.218: /* Dreamwave */

Do we really want to have links to each of the alt modes?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:I fixed this, it was an artifact left over from when the article was copied from Wikipedia. I also fixed all the links in the articles to fit the standard here, and added some links for specific things. (Robo-Smasher, Cybertronium, etc.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

== Dreamwave ==

How is it apparent that the Constructicons weren't on the Ark when it crashed in 1984? We're led to believe that Vol. 2 is the first contact of any kind the Earthbound TFs have had with Cybertron since their crash, yet the Constructicons are a huge part of Vol. 1. --[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If they had NO contact- then how did the Arielbots get there? theyw erent' part of the Ark's crew. I suspect that the Cosntructicons took the 'long way around' to Earth, like Omega Supreme/Jetfire did. Thought yey arrived later- they did not represent current contact with Cybertron. (As was the case in the cartoon, per secret of Omega Supreme.) --Derik

This is not clear. MTMTE does indicate a crew of 18, which would not include the Aerialbots. However, this could just as easily be a mistake. They never adequately explained the discrepancy.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

:We already know that the Dinobots and the Insecticons separately found their own ways to Earth. It gets pretty ridiculous, but all signs point to the Aerialbots getting their way there, too.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

:...I know there must be something-- but is there some reason Prime couldn't have created the Arialbots on Earth?
:Constructicons- meh. They came from space int he cartoon, having been out of contact with Cybertron for Millenia. Same schtick for Omega Sentinel, Omega Supreme, Jetfire... -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 14:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
::I'm pretty sure the Aerialbots being in The War Within series is a reason Prime couldn't have created them on Earth. ...unless there's two sets running around. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

:::...thank you. You know that's the onyl DW mini I havent' re-read recently? -[[User:Derik|Derik]]14:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

==PX PLZ K THX==
*I've added pics, but this definitely needs more! [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 11:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
**Before I change it back, why was the Dreamwave Devastator pic changed to be center aligned rather than right aligned? Was it messing up formatting on people's machines? It looked okay to me. [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 14:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Constructicon (G1)

2006-06-28T14:14:48Z

69.88.91.218: /* Dreamwave */

Do we really want to have links to each of the alt modes?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:I fixed this, it was an artifact left over from when the article was copied from Wikipedia. I also fixed all the links in the articles to fit the standard here, and added some links for specific things. (Robo-Smasher, Cybertronium, etc.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

== Dreamwave ==

How is it apparent that the Constructicons weren't on the Ark when it crashed in 1984? We're led to believe that Vol. 2 is the first contact of any kind the Earthbound TFs have had with Cybertron since their crash, yet the Constructicons are a huge part of Vol. 1. --[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If they had NO contact- then how did the Arielbots get there? theyw erent' part of the Ark's crew. I suspect that the Cosntructicons took the 'long way around' to Earth, like Omega Supreme/Jetfire did. Thought yey arrived later- they did not represent current contact with Cybertron. (As was the case in the cartoon, per secret of Omega Supreme.) --Derik

This is not clear. MTMTE does indicate a crew of 18, which would not include the Aerialbots. However, this could just as easily be a mistake. They never adequately explained the discrepancy.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

:We already know that the Dinobots and the Insecticons separately found their own ways to Earth. It gets pretty ridiculous, but all signs point to the Aerialbots getting their way there, too.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

:...I know there must be something-- but is there some reason Prime couldn't have created the Arialbots on Earth?
:Constructicons- meh. They came from space int he cartoon, having been out of contact with Cybertron for Millenia. Same schtick for Omega Sentinel, Omega Supreme, Jetfire... -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 14:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

==PX PLZ K THX==
*I've added pics, but this definitely needs more! [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 11:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
**Before I change it back, why was the Dreamwave Devastator pic changed to be center aligned rather than right aligned? Was it messing up formatting on people's machines? It looked okay to me. [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 14:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

User talk:24.222.62.42

2006-06-27T17:47:52Z

69.88.91.218: He ASKED

Dude, whoever the hell you are, quit editing out all the little jokes that happen to have mild curses in them. They are here to stay. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

<span style="background:red;color:white;padding:3px;border:solid 2px black;font-weight:900;">CENSORED</span>. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 15:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2006-06-27T17:43:40Z

69.88.91.218: /* "Tech Spec" Inclusion */

[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archived Talk]]

==That awful picture and the name==

Although secondary to the vandalism, we have an admin-type who can deal with the problems left by the creator. There's a couple locked things that we can't change:
* The title is misspelled. The computer's name is "Teletraan-1", and we should really have the title reflect a name that 'isn't' the wrong spelling. We fixed it on the main page, but it still shows up in the titles of every page.
* The wiki symbol in the top left is horrendously ugly and kinda embarassing. And not only is it hideous, but it also reflects the same problem as the title: Teletraan-1 is spelled incorrectly. I made [[Media:Potential-wiki.png|a new image]] for it, but it's not too great either, and I'd like to invite any artist to do something better.
We should get some other people's thoughts on both these matters. If we can get some sort of consensus going, we can probably get both of these matters fixed. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
:I agree on the wiki symbol. That was the first thing I was annoyed by. I'll whip up some proposals this week. [[Optimus DaVinci]] 15:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)]]

Besides the spelling, I don't see anything wrong with the logo. Heck, I'd be downright surprised to see anything else. Well, with the possible exception of the Decepticon logo.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

What about that spinning logo that goes from bot to con to max to pred to blendtron etc. etc. etc. X-BoB58

:For the title issue - I'll contact our one of our technical support staff. It's not something that can be changed on-wiki (he should be on-line soon). For the logo - I've unprotected the logo for a while, so you can chose what should go there and upload. All you need to do is upload to [[:Image:wiki.png]]. It does have to be a .png image, so the animated logo idea is out I'm afraid. If you want to try changing your favicon ([[:Image:favicon.ico]]: [[Image:favicon.ico]]) then I can unprotect that too for a while.

I definitely fall in the "don't like the logo" camp, so here's one proposal for a change: [[:Image:Newlogo-wiki.png|new logo proposal]]. [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] 16:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I propose an Art Contest or something similar. -X-boB58
* Well, anyone is welcome to and definitely encouraged to make a new logo to replace the old one; just upload it and post it here if you do. If we get any more people proposing replacements, we can just put it to a vote. Although I do personally like Aurax's a lot. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 00:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I also like the logo Aurax made, although probably we should pick between "Teletraan-1" and "Teletraan One". The logo spells out the number, whereas it's written elsewhere with the digit.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
*Since it's likely easier to change the text in the logo than it is to change the name of the wiki (again), I made a new version of the graphic file. It fixes the spelling and addresses some text readability issues that I had with the original, stuff that I was gonna fix anyway. [[:Image:Newlogo-digit-wiki.png|For your renewed consideration.]] [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] 03:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
** I've replaced the old logo with yours, as there weren't objections; but if anyone opposes it now, please feel free to post to that effect. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 03:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

While were on the topic of apearances what about a new skin, Idunno something more "transformery"

To be utterly and stupednously anal, the computer's name is actually spelled "Teletraan I," with a roman numeral and no hyphen. - Chris McFeely, 17th March 2006

Nobody has further commented on this, but Chris appears to be right. I would personally prefer that the site name match the canonical spelling. Is there support for changing the name again? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 00:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
*As with the last correction, making a new graphic for the wiki's name is easy enough to do. I'm personally ambivalent about changing it though. A part of me yearns for complete accuracy, but the other part reminds that first part that we're not trying to be Teletraan I here, and as such I should be perfectly content with whatever we decide to call ourselves. Whatever the verdict, I stand ready with PSD in hand. [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] 06:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

:Since nobody has objected, I suggest that we go ahead with this name change. "Teletraan I" with a roman numeral and no hyphen. Aurax can provide a new logo, assuming he's still reading. :) Suki, can you take care of this? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

==Original toy prices?==
A project I'd been working on for a long time has been assembling a list of the orignal retail prices for G1/G2 Transformers, since they varied pretty wildly back in the day, plus it's interesting to compare prices (especially after you adjust them for inflation). I think this would be GREAT info to put on the wiki... just where? I'm thinking on the actual character pages next to the relevant toys... chart, perhaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

==Appearances listing==
It would probably be useful to have a list of appearances on character pages, but some characters will have colossal lists. I've got some prototype appearance charts on my User Page, so check them out. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 20:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:While I like the format (it's clear and easy to read), it would seem that to use these would require a whole new page just for "Appearances" for each character.... I'm not sure we're up for that....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 21:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::For the major characters, sure. But post-1986 G1? Most of Beast Wars/Machines? The vast majority of Mini-Cons? - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 21:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
:::I've been fonderign this myself. This si awfully... comprehensive. I was thinking more like a '''Major Appearances''' entry. For instance, Nightscream's might read-
:::Nightscream first appeared in the Beast Machines episode Forbidden Fruit, he played a major part in the entire series after that. Major episodes are: Forbidden Fruit, Savage Noble and A Wolf in the Fold
:::Only better oganized than that. Just somethign to give an idea of the... range of the TFU across which a character has appeared, but less formalized than your appearances list.
:::Rav appears in the first two issues of the Wreckers comic book during Beast Machines. Prior to that his backstory ties him to the rebellion agains the Quintessons 9 million years ago. Major episodes are: Wreckers #1 (activated by Nightscream) Wreckers #2 (dies)
:::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
::::While I'm certainly up for considering other formats, I really do think that the format should be formalized. It should easily stand out to anyone who's looking for "appearances."--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 03:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:I should note that an easy way to find appearances, given proper documentation, is to click the "What links here" bit on the left menu. It's not the best solution, but at the moment, I find it vastly preferable to such a large and cumbersome menu system. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so I've updated the Appearance charts, making them considerably less cumbersome. Thoughts? - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 06:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

==Franchise/line designations==

'''Long post follows.'''

A number of questions have been raised recently about use of the franchise/line/continuity designations that we place after Transformer character article titles. Most recently M Sipher made a post about the issue on [[Category talk:Robot Masters]]. Some of these issues are raised in my [[User:Steve-o/Proposed Style Guide|proposed style guide]] which has gotten very little feedback. Within the last few days, a number of pages for Japanese Beast Wars characters were moved back and forth as part of this confusion. It's something that we need to come to a consensus on and begin enforcing.

It appears to me that this is the primary question:
*'''Is the designation in a character's article title a FRANCHISE designation or a CONTINUITY designation (or more broadly, a continuity family designation)?'''

Currently the answer to that question is unclear. Some examples:
*Japanese Beast Wars franchises are all lumped together under "BW", as if their different-franchises nature is meaningless.
*BW and BM are given separate labels, as if their different-franchises nature is meaningful.
*BW, BM, and TFU are labelled separately from G1, as if their same-continuity nature is meaningless.
*Armada, Energon, and Cybertron are all labelled UT, as if their same-continuity nature is meaningful.
*Characters who appear in the G1/Beast/TFU continuity are generally given a qualifier indicating the franchise in which they first appeared, but characters who appear in the Armada/Energon/Cybertron continuity are all given the UT qualifier.

This is all terribly inconsistant and confusing.

As a matter of taste, I personally like the idea of lumping the UT franchises together, but at the same time, I don't like the idea of putting G1, J-G1, BW, J-BW, BM, and TFU all under a single qualifying label, even if we had a name for that continuity in the first place. Partly because they exist in my mind as connected but still distinct entities, and partly because labelling them that way would eliminate the primary purpose for those labels being there in the first place: disambiguation.

I propose that we use franchise identifiers instead of continuity identifiers. For consistency's sake, this would suggest that we change all the UT titles to their appropriate franchise. Doing so would require a lot of work, but there are automated Wiki-editors (bots) which can do maintenance of that sort, so if that's the route we want to take, it would not require hand-editing hundreds of pages.

Despite the inconsistency, though, I would be willing (and would even prefer) to leave the UT franchises bunched together as UT. I'm not quite sure why I feel that way. I think it is because all the UT franchises happened one after the other with no breaks, and with complete knowledge within the fandom that they were all one entity, such that they felt to me more like a single meta-franchise of sorts. The G1/Beast/Universe continuity, on the other hand, has been cobbled together over many, many years by a variety of writers. It's not the (more or less) cohesive straight shot that the UT has been under Aaron Archer's creative control.

Again, this is an important organizational issue which has already led to a lot of confusion and wasted effort. I think we need to sort it out soon, and would like to see discussion of various solutions and their strengths/weaknesses. Thanks for your attention.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:I have to say I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you on this on all marks. I'd PREFER to keep the UT entries marked as such for the very same reason... we've never really HAD a multi-line series that felt so purposely self-contained as a single entity (the whole Galaxy Force carbunkle regardless). But, well, I think that in general, listing by sub-franchise of character origin appears to make the most sense. This will involve coming up with more tags we can all agree with, mind... '''(A) (E) (C)''' for the individual UT franchises? '''(HM) (MF) (V) (Z) (OC)''' for the Japanese G1 sub-franchises?
:And yeah, I'm all for bringing back the (BWII) and (BWN) tags.

:--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

::Would you feel the same if BWII/Neo had been dubbed into english?
::Is this a 'different series' thing or a 'different continuities' thing? Because a single franchise can have multiple continuities.
::(I frankly see the various BW series as rather tightly interwoven, despite there being (relatively) little crossover between the casts.) But at this point, the US BW series has had, in some version, appearances by Lio Convoy, Big Convoy, Heinrad, Magmatron, Shaow Panther/TPA crossing directly across lines in 1 continuity... (or is Shadow Panther considered (BW) because he was released for Japan's BW line?) and various nods back and forth.

::I mean, I agree that cluping all 3 BW series together and making BM a serperate suffix is daft... but it seems to me the reason we started witht the suffixes was to avoid confusion with allt he name re-use- "Do you mean G1 Blurr or Armada Blurr?" And there's been very little name re-use within what we're calling (BW) (Ironicly, it's that very standard from which TFU having its own designation follows logically- it's rife with name re-use and opportunities for confusion.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::"''Is this a 'different series' thing or a 'different continuities' thing? Because a single franchise can have multiple continuities.''"
::: Have you considered, oh, '''reading the godsdamned text'''?
::: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::: Have you considered- *ahme*
:::: I was not expressing confusion over the nature of the proposed suffix change- I was questioning the reasoning behind it. I went back and revisited ouoriginal reasons for instituting a suffix system, and asked if you'd been different in BW2 and Neo had been dubbed into US continuity. (Wondering if their semi-seperate continuity was the reason behind moving them.)
::::To re-iterate- we started w/ the suffixes because of confusion abotu name re-use. BW in its various incarnations has vvery little name re-use.
::::So yeah, I read the damn text. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:::::My opinion, and apparently Siph's as well, is that continuity suffixes would introduce more problems than it would solve. For example, there is the question of what to call the G1/Beast/Universe continuity and what to do about the large number of duplicate names within it. If we are going to say that the suffixes are based on continuity (families), then we can't leave the Beast stuff separate from G1. Are you proposing a scheme that is based on neither continuities nor franchises? I could potentially see room for something like that, based on "groups" of franchises that have some sort of commonality and little name reuse, but... that sounds like it will be clumsy. Do you have something in mind? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 06:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

:Breaking (UT) into it's constituents and re-introducing the (BWII) and (BWN) tags seems the most logical thing to do here (as well as further seperating (J-G1)) if consistency is the goal; and I think it should be. I agree with Steve and Siph in that the continuity system would be awkward, at best, mainly because, unlike Unicron Trilogy, there's no term in the lexicon for the G1/Beast Wars/Beast Machines group.[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 14:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems as if there aren't any major objections to making this switch, at least not in principle, but I'd still sort of like to hear a few more people chime in. Derik sort-of dissented, but seemed to be more raising discussion than actually *objecting* as such. Any further opinions?

In the absence of continued discussion on whether to make the change or not, we should move on to discussing the details of the change. I will create a new section below for such discussion, but want to see some more comments here too.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

==Featured articles==
One feature of the main page is that we have a section designated specifically for showcasing one specific article that's of high quality. Pretty much every wiki, including certain [http://en.wikipedia.org prominent] ones do the same thing; since it's a good way to find a complete, informative article. When I made a mock up of the front page, I added the most complete article I could find, [[Unicron]], as the temporary featured article, but I'd like to actually have something really there, as rotating content for the featured article of the week (or whatever period of time).

I've made up a [[Template:Featured|template]] that we can use for now, although it looks pretty hokey. I'd like to start having articles marked as being such.

Any thoughts? --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 04:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

::A little while back, I had mentioned to Walky about changing our "poster boy" article from Sunstreaker to... someone, I can't remember who. It was someone who underwent a character-name change at some point in their career. It might be Bumblebee.

:: Any rate, I'd suggested that we try and complete him (whoever it was) for the purpose of being a "featured article". If we can get more big articles done for A-list characters or concepts, that would be the awesome.

::And how about we get a nice picture of, oh, Vector Sigma or the Matrix as a "Featured Article" icon? Or Cybertron-the-planet?

:: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

:::You were thinking of using Hot Rod. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 05:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

==Franchise designations, part two==
A few issues, and then my first round of ideas:

How should we treat the Japanese G1 franchises? All lumped under G1? JG1? Or a separate qualifier for each new "name" the toyline went through? If we do that, it would be slightly more consistent to distinguish the original series from 2010, but... That would go against the "US stuff first, Japanese stuff as exceptions" sort of policy that we've been defaulting to. My inclination is to go with the somewhat "normal" US mode of treating US G1 as a single entity, and then giving each Japanese line afterwards its own identity, ignoring the orig/2010 split.

Regardless of that decision: I propose that the appropriate suffix for a character page's title is the suffix for the series in which that character first appeared. Their level of prominance is not important (we can create redirects for that purpose in cases where confusion is likely). Just the name of their first series, chronologically in the real world of course, not based on any in-fiction timeline.

My preference is to use all capital letters in acronyms/initialisms, even when abbreviating "minor" words. So, as I've expressed before, I like RID better than RiD. Acronyms/initialisms with mixed case are atypical. They are almost always all-caps or all small letters (radar and laser as examples), with mixed case only when the people coining them are trying to be cute or kewl. Mixed case could occur, though, when jamming words together into a new word. I just think each word should get a capital.

I also dislike the idea of single-letter abbreviations on the grounds that they are too difficult to recognize. Hence I do not like "T" for ''Timelines'' or simply A, E, and C for the UT trilogy series. I think at least two letters are needed.

On the other hand, some series names are short enough that abbreviating them seems almost silly, as it partially obscures the terms' meaning for, in some cases, a saving of only three or four letters. ''Zone'' in particular probably doesn't need to be shortened. Armada and Energon are both rather short as well, but there is at least some precedent in the fandom for using shorthand such as AR/ARMM or EN for those lines. ''Victory'' is also short enough (and non-obviously shortenable enough) that it could possible go unshortened.

With those principles in mind, I would suggest the following. I am not wedded to these. It's just my first inclination:

US/joint series:

*G1
*G2
*BW
*MW
*BM
*RID
*ARM or AR
*EN
*CYB
*TFU
*TFT or TL
*ALT

Japan-only series:

*HM
*MF
*VIC or Victory
*ZONE or Zone
*BS (perhaps not obvious enough, but "Battlestars" is a little long)
*OC (again not all that clear, but probably mainly because it's an obscure series; perhaps OpCom or OPCOM)
*BW2
*BWN
*RM
*BT and BTA (do these even have new characters?)
*KP (?)

Please comment.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

: I don't have a lot to add to this. I'd perhaps go with (ZN) for Zone. I'd try and keep tags to three characters, preferably two, but three is okay. And BT/BTA... I think the only new character who would GET a series tag there is Zoom-Zoom, and he's only in BT. KP... there's the Autrooper. It feels kind of silly to have a new tag for all of ONE character, but, well, whaddayagonnado. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:I personally don't really see much need for changing the way things are now and adding so many additional suffixes. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 04:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

: I vote we go with Steve-o's proposed system here - with (DB) for the Dinobots subline. It'll be more consistent. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 06:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm commenting. The reason we adopted suffixes was to keep things clear with name re-uses. G1, even counting Japan in, have damn few of them. Indeed- by the simply virtue Japan HAD a Generation Two, Headmasters-thru-Battlestars is INHERENTLY 'Generation 1,' and decidign to cut off the 'generational' suffix midway through the generation, merely because the title of the SERIES changes, is wildly inconsistent. More- it doesn't speak to the fundamental reason to rename-- confusion due to name reuse. And finally- it draws an artificial dividing line between the US and Japanese continuities. Every indication we've givvein in recent years is that the Japanese series 'happened' in some loose sense (though perhaps not exactly as portrayed onscreen- but then that's true of the American cartoon as well.)

Isn't Binaltech a G1 branch-continuity? If the Devil's Due Joe/TF stuff goes udner the (G1) character entries, then Binaltech belongs there too. Because it's japanese? Fine, why is ALTERNATORS a seperate suffix? We've now got 2 seperate sources tellign us it's the same basic story as BW, a G1 branch.

If Tigertrack can be retconned in as a (G1) character, so can Decepticharge.

I understand the intention here is to communicate character provenance, ambit, and range- but I think any system imposing that onto a single suffix, locking the entry intot heat inflexible model, will do vast disservice to some characters- especially the the more complicated one.

I agree that our current standard for character entries does not adequately communicate their series and continuity of origin, but I don't think the proposed suffixes are the right way to address that.

-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The solution I have proposed ''is'' a mess of new suffixes, I agree. I think of it as a neccessary evil for the sake of consistency. However, I understand and at least partially agree with your point about the G1 lines. I would vastly prefer a different solution, but I can't think of one, and nobody else -- including you -- has proposed one. If the suffixes are to be continuity (family) markers instead of franchise markers, then we need a name for the G1/Beast/TFU continuity.

Honestly, if somebody can come up with a decent one, I would be all for using that here. I would feel a little wary of appearing as if we are trying to impose "our" name for it on the rest of the fandom, but I think as long as we explain why we adopted a name for it, mainly as a convenience, there would probably not be much hostility over it. With a name for that continuity we can easily begin using a simple '''Whatever'''/'''RID'''/'''UT''' scheme to differentiate most name-reuse characters from each other. A lot of Beast Era characters will still need further clarification, however.

I suppose we could do the following, which is only a minor modification of the current "scheme", but at least has some sort of logic behind it:

*Suffixes, for the most part, represent the real-world period of time in which the character was established.
*Characters that are retroactively implanted into old stories are granted the suffix of the story they were implanted into.
*Thus:
**Everything from 1984 until G2 counts as simply '''G1'''.
**All Beast lines and Machine Wars are '''Beast Era'''.
**RID is just '''RID'''.
**Unicron Trilogy can stay as '''UT'''.
G2, as a direct extension of G1 with no time gap, could theoretically be lumped in with it for this purpose, but that would probably cause more confusion than it is worth. Sticking MW in with Beast Era would probably also cause confusion, but is harder for me to justify not doing if the rationale for the scheme is "when was the character created?" However, I'm not opposed to splitting it off.

The only practical difference between this scheme and the current one is making all Beast Era characters have Beast Era suffixes. I would sort of prefer writing it out to abbreviating BE. And, obviously, a brief article explaining the scheme and the reasoning behind its exceptions would be placed prominantly to help people get accustomed to it and use it correctly.

Anybody have opinions on this one?

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

: Personally, I'm leery of making up terms like this. I'm not wild about using "Beast Era" on the wiki either, in all honesty. Also, I don't much like using "G1" to include G2 and Machine Wars and Robot Masters et all, since, well, G1 as a line is everything predating that (or later stuff specifically marked as such). Personally, I think of that whole pre-Beast-Era non-RiD/UT umbrella-era as the "'''Great War'''"... and I really can't come up with a suitable term for the whole G1-through-TFU pseudo-timeline, partially because it's hard to come up with something that doesn't frankly sound pretentious or innacurate. Considering the vagueness of BW-and-beyond's ties to G1 fictionally...

: This is why I prefer to stick with the toyline-based suffixes. Since the fictional ties are so damn fluid, I find the metaphorical solid rock of "This character was released first under this toyline (or, for nontoys, premiered in the fiction based on this toyline)" a far more preferable base. That's pretty damn clear-cut.

: Yes, the toyline-based suffixes mean a lot of work, and yeah, I'd LIKE to have a more simple system... but with TFs being the way it is, that involves, basically, making stuff up. But come on. We're looking at far more work than this anyway.

: --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

::I'll restate my objection to Sipher's classification system as said previously in the channel. I do not consider G1 to be "preBW + BW." G1 ''is'' preBW by definition. When something that's Beast Wars gets officially labelled Generation 1, I'll reconsider, but G1 to the fandom and to Hasbro = preBW. But, yes. We have no name for the entire G1/G2/MW/BW/BM/TFU/ALT/RM universe, and even if we did, the whole point of the (BW)s was because of all the name reuse. And, heavens, no, I don't want 25 suffixes. I'd rather be unconfusingly inconsistent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Sssssso why are there pages with "so-and-so is a character from the Beast Wars portion of the Generation 1 continuity"? Like Optimus Primal's? That's not MY idea. I'm AGAINST using "G1" as a giant catch-all for anything and everything pre-BW fictionally. I DON'T consider G2 to be "G1". I can see an argument for keeping the G1 tag for J-characters from Headmasters through Operation Combination, yes, and would be okay with that, or go with a (JG1) tag since there's enough name-doubling-up going on there. Not so much for major characters, but still. But I'm FOR the (BW2) and (BWN) tags, FOR keeping (G2) and (BM) and (RM) and (TFU) separate. The UT is one I can go either way on, leaning towards "separate".<br>
:::Transformers ''fiction'' is far too fractured and/or fluid to really count on it as a filing system. I'd rather stick with what's much more concrete. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

::''If the suffixes are to be continuity (family) markers instead of franchise markers, then we need a name for the G1/Beast/TFU continuity.

::There's a BW in the Unicron Trilogy too.
::Bw, though concieved of as such on its original incarnation isn't just a 'continution of G1 continuity only.' It's 'TF's future.' All roads leads to BW. RiD was {{Template:Tooltip|in transition to it|my opinion only}} UT had one in its past (and probably future.)
::If Beast Wars can be THE FUTURE of the G1 'toon, the Dreamwave Comics, possibly the IDW comics... clearly it has flexibility. We gacve 3 dats for it! 180,000 BC, 70,000 BC and 3,000,000 BC.

::My prediction? I give it four years until we have a comic AND am associated toyline (possibly store exclusive) about the 'little beast war' on Cybertron during Gen 1. It's like chinatown, a niche era. A time 40,000 years ago, when the energy pinch was so bad, but after the travelers who'd gone out amogn the stars brought back DNA for beast forms- a collapse into neo-feudalism, and back on to swords and chemical weapons. The kind of slideback that occoured during the dark ages of europe. This will be in G1, and this is where Tigatron is from. BW is leaking all over the franchise. THAT will need a different suffix.

::BW? It's a cluster of series set in the same era, in more of less the same location and political setting.

::Why do you place Machine Wars in with BW? it has all G1 characters. Because of the NAMING convention? Newsflash: The Asphalt Wars and Software Wars were G1 conflicts.

::Fundamentally, I go back on my old standard. "Suffixes are to keep renaming straight." They work for that, for the most part, now. Anythign you'd GAIN by further subdividing the suffixes so that the existing multiple-names-under-one-suffixes fell into seperate categories would be more-than-offselt by the LOSS of utility as the suffixes themselves lose their ability to communicate meaning because there are TOO MANY OF THEM.

::The article names are there for NAMES. Not continuity. The suffixes are just to seperate multiple occourances of a single name. (And we add them by convention even to single-use names on the logic the name may be re-used some day.)

::I appreciate tyhat you want to communciate a character's ambit- but this is a realyl crappy way to do it. It adversely affects what the article names do now,a nd I dont' think it would actually do the job you WANT it to worth two shits.

::Work up a template for character ambit instead and make it standard for articles. 'cuz I agree we need it. Maybe in the process of discussing that template we'll figure otu a better way to list things. Because I AGREE the current system we have id difiirentiating the continuities is piss-poor. Optimus Prime has like 80 different continuity notes to him, all given equal 'weight' in the article. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:::The job we want it to do is denote the characters' series of origin so as to be an inarguable and largley-consistant classification based on fact, not arbitrary interpretation. And since people tend to think of characters in regards to their toy-series of origin rather than what fictional "timelines" they've inhabited, when name re-use comes up they will be more given to look them up that way. Most people don't think of Stampy as a "Beast Wars" character, they think "Beast Wars Neo". If you ask someone for the semi-truck Armorhide, people will call him "Cybertron" Armorhide, not "Unicron Trilogy Autobot" Armorhide.

:::That we're even having this ''discussion'' about what to call this gigantic miasmic swirling G1-through-TFU metaverse entity stands as testament, I believe, to what a bad idea using fiction as a basis for any marking system is. As the toys are the core of all this, it only makes sense to use them as the basis for articles.

:::And I'd like to have a system that cuts back on the double-parenthesis articles, like we have with the two UT Armorhides, for example. Escpecially since it doesn't seem like that second mark's "basis" has been wholly agreed upon. Yes, some instances are going to be inescapable, like with Riochet and Thunderblast. But let's look at, say, the individual G1 Seacon Decepticon Overbite versus the brainless G1 Seacon Decepticon drone from Masterforce who is also named Overbite. (And the three spies and their horse who is also a spy.) I would not want them both in a single article. Would not "Overbite (G1)" and "Overbite (MF)" or "Overbite (JG1)" be nice and simple?

:::YES, this will involve a fair few series tags. But frankly, that's the world we live in here in this wiki. Transformers is inherantly huge and frequently redundant, and is only going to get moreso on both counts. Large numbers of any classification is pretty much inescapable without just making things up, and that's not what this wiki is for.

:::--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
::::So go define me Alpha Trion in terms of his toyline.
::::He's a BM character, right? That's when his toy was planned for.

::::The number of TF character who are NTO toys is edging up into the hundreds. What's Dropshot's continuity?
::::'''A TOP LEVEL DEFINITION SCHEME LIEK THIS CANNOT BE TERMINED BY TOYLINE WHEN A GOODLY CHUNK OF CHARACTERS LACK TOYS'''
::::The Diaclone characters who mark their first appearance in The War Within? What's their toyline? How about the Decepticlone toy? Is he Armada or Attactix? Divided Front Megatron, is he TF/Joe or is he Titaniums?

::::Applying toyline-based logic to TF doesn't have few dozen entries that don't work well. It has, liek a HUNDRED or more.

::::When is Megaplex from? MW? All the other Neo-G1 reissues got grandfathered into G1, like they'd retroactively 'been there.' Wouldn't that make this Megaplex's first toy? Neither appearance holds weight as 'more signifigant.'

::::Besides, isn't this wiki character-first-toy-second?

::::I agree that there's a need to express information about where a character 'came from' and how widely they've traveled through TF fiction/toylines from that initial appearance- but I think your solution is frankly '''insufficient''' to the complexisty of the problem it seeks to address.

::::Some characters are very simple. Otheres very complicated. Treat it like the disambig templates, and have multiple formats for expressing this information about a character depending on the COMPLEXITY.

::::[[User talk:Derik|Here's]] one solution. It's a bad one (I think it's almost untemplateable for one) but I think it presents all the information. Instead of yelling at one another on oposite sides fo a poprosal that doesnt' work, lets' explore OTHER proposals. Reject what doesnt' work, notw what does. Do this 6 or 7 time, maybe we'll find a gestaly solution for elegantly presenting this kind of information. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

::::: Defining Alpha Trion is easy. He's Generation One... since he was introduced in the fiction that was created for the original pre-G2 toy line and franchise that is now called "Generation 1". Which is how we've been marking fiction-first characters all this time. The Armada comic Dropshot would go under Armada because that's the franchise he was introduced in. Arcee is G1 because she was created for that franchise in our real-world timeframe, even though her only actual toy didn't come out until BM, just as Chromia is G1 despite her only toy being from Timelines. Megaplex WOULD be MW, because that is his real-world real-time franchise of origin. The e-Hobby guys are G1 because they're not part of some secondary franchise with a new name; they are marketed pretty much as if they had come out in 1984~1985 and such, with the original G1 packaging.

::::: It's why Grimlock is marked as (G1) despite his having crossed into BW and TFU.

::::: How many non-toy characters have crossed into different franchises? How many of them have survived beyond a single episode or comic issue, for that matter? Alpha Trion and Arcee not the rule, they're the exception. The overwhleming majority of fiction-created characters will likely never have toys, but they DO have series of origin that were created FOR a specific toy franchise.

::::: NO system is goign to be simple. But really, you seem to be trying to make it more complicated than it has any reason to be by trying to add some kind of "fictional weight" to things, which is arbitrary at best. And I don't see how using the toy-franchises as a basis, the system that's pretty much ingrained into the fandom, "doesn't work". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::Cuz I don't like it!
::::::Is Optimus Primal (RiD) a seperate character from Primal (BW)?
::::::I will go so far as to cede you JBW being a decent idea for a suffix, but I still don't approove of using individual series suffixes, because the 2 JBW series are to intertwined they're a) unnecessary b) create an artificial dividing line.
::::::And I still approve of using 'Beast Era' in the initial italicised character summary- becaue the 5 BW-era series (JP count) all took place more-or-less simultaneously. BW2 and Neo (of they took place at all, and yes peopel debate this) took place between BW and BM. Simultaneous overlapping storylines instead of sequential, with cross-references and cross-overs between them, and some backstory conenctions. Not a LOT, but enough.
::::::My question is- if They get dubbed over to the US, do those entries suffixes change? What about Lioconvoy, who looks like he's gonana have an entry (and probably an official US name) in the upcomng BW guidebook?
:::::: (That's not a challenge, I'm genuinely curious what we do when a japanese character becoems a full-blown US one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::::This was previously discussed, and even ANSWERED in THIS discussion. No. LioConvoy's article would still have (BW2) as the tag because that is the character's real-world franchise of origin, even if he ends up with a new Hasbro-approved name. Deathsaurus and Ricochet would be (JG1) or whatever, reflecting their real-world franchises of origin, two guys who have ALREADY made the jump. Magmatron, (BWN). No different from Grimlock being (G1) despite also being in G2, BW and TFU.

:::::::Optimus Primal's appearance in RiD is as the original guy, pulled from the Allspark after BM. He dimension-hopped. There wouldn't be a separate article for his RiD appearance.

:::::::I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the tags. As said before, using the franchise of origin as the tag is simply so we're using a concrete, FACT-based maker for if/when name redundancies come up. If you say "which Armorhide", more often than not people will use the origin series to answer you ("Robots in Disguise", "Cybertron"). People will always think of Primal, Cheetor et all as "BW", despite their being major characters in other franchises. We may writes the character sections "in-universe", but that's just style... real-world plays a big role in all this. It's simply the SIMPLEST way of going about it and ends up with the least number of exceptions. Yeah, we'll need a second tag for the Sky Highs and Thunderblasts, but like non-toy characters who are later given one, they're in a very, very, very small minority.

:::::::If we start trying to mark them based on supposed fiction prominence/importance... well, one could make a damn good case for Trailbreaker having been more important in TFU's fiction than his entire G1 career, plus there's plenty of characters like Predacon and BM Snarl whose first appearances are in fictions OTHER than the one made for their franchise of origin. That way leads only to confusion for both writers and readers.

:::::::--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In watching this discussion I vacillated a bit on my stance, but I think I've ended up back where I started: Wanting the suffixes to be unambiguous line designations.

The current system needs to change in some way, if only to fix the Beast vs UT inconsistencies. That much at least I think most of us agree on.

I think that, for the most part, when a fan is referring to, say, BW2 Galvatron, they typically say "BW2 Galvatron", not "Beast Wars Galvatron". When referring to Energon's Ironhide, they typically say "Energon Ironhide" rather than "UT Ironhide". We as a fandom have been using franchise labels basically forever. It's only been with the three UT franchises and their many repeating characters that anybody even thought to refer to characters by their continuity family instead of their franchise of origin. I think that using franchise names instead of continuity names is more consistent with the way the fandom refers to characters, and in that sense is the least confusing option. It is also the most self-consistent option because it's such an easy rule to follow, with almost no judgement calls involved. Whatever franchise they first appeared in, that's the one to use. Derik: Nearly all of your objections to this proposal seem to be based on continuity arguments, but... as stated, this would not be a continuity-based scheme.

The only drawback to this idea is that there will be a lot of different suffixes. If we really want to we can write them out instead of abbreviating to make sure they are understood, or perhaps only write out the ones that aren't in wide use by the fandom already instead of making up our own abbreviations.

Another alternative would be for us to rethink the idea of giving all TF characters a suffix in the first place. Most characters don't need them. Only the ones who need disambiguation notices in the first place need suffixes. We could simply drop the policy of putting them on every character and evaluate the needed suffixes on a case-by-case basis, where the best suffixes to use will often be easier to determine than as a general policy. We adopted the "all TFs get suffixes" idea in an effort to save work in the future, preparing for name reuse, but it's also generating a lot of work now. It may not be worth it.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
:I'm far from a big contributer here by any means, so give my arguments as much weight as you feel like it; but I'm ''very'' inclined to go with the last part of Steve's suggestion here.
:Like I said at the start, the idea of reflexively adding these disambiguation suffixes just seems like a bad idea. It's not a lot of work to move pages; anyone can do that. On each page, there's a little link that tells you what pages link to that one, so changing links isn't that hard, either. It just seems to be a completely unnecessary hassle-- and clearly, one that doesn't solve the problem. Even when using reflexive disambiguation, we end up getting pages like [[Thunderblast (UT) (Decepticon)]], because the continuity marker simply isn't enough.
:Most wikis only add disambiguation when it's specifically needed; obviously, we have special considerations unique to our subject matter, but there's a ''good reason'' why nobody else does this. Not even Wikipedia is able to come up with a unified system of what each disambiguation suffix should be. It just doesn't seem like a good idea; it creates a lot more work, in order to save a small amount of work on a handful of pages.--[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 21:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

:: I don't have much to add to anything Steve said. I feel exactly the same way; if we are to have disambiguation tags (and lord knows we DO need them) they should be franchise-of-origin. I mean... if we were to go continuity-importance-whatever... what would Flamewar REALLY be under? Yeah, it won't catch EVERYTHING, like the two G1 Autobot Sky Highs or the two Cybertron Thunderblasts, but well, And if ONLY giving tags to characters who EXPLICITLY need them is determined as the way to handle it, well, so be it. (And if we do it that way, default tag should be frnachise-of-origin.)
:: As for link-fixing... doesn't a move automatically create a redirect from any already-existing links? I'm pretty sure it does. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 01:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, it does. But suppose we have an article at say, [[Cheetor]], and then a character in UT comes out with the same name, then we'd have to change every link to [[Cheetor]] to [[Cheetor (BW)]], since the [[Cheetor]] page would become a disambiguation. But that's not very hard work.
:::The great part about doing them as we need them is we don't really need to worry about a standard. If [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)]] would be appropriate in one situation, but [[Optimus Prime (UT)]] is appropriate in another-- then that would work just fine. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 02:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

==Stories category==

On [[Category talk:Transformers The Movie]], [[User:ItsWalky|Walky]] asked what [[:Category:Stories]] was supposed to be, exactly.

When I created the stories category, I commented ''somewhere'', no idea where now, that I was dissatisfied with the name. My original intent for that category was "Things that appear or figure into stories that are not characters or locations." Hence the subcategories like "battles", "wildlife", and "objects". I almost called it just "Objects", but then realized that a lot of the things which would go into this category (like [[transwarp]]) are not actually objects. I've wanted to rename the category for a while, but simply don't have any ideas for it.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

: Agh. I KNOW there's a suitable term for this kind of thing... but damned if I can think of it... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

::Plot points? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 16:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

== "Tech Spec" Inclusion ==

I would like to see the specifications of the Transformers. Their estimated/approx height & weight, for starters. As well as the toy specs listed for each character. --[[Optimus DaVinci]]

: No. Estimated height and weight would require us to be making them up (with the exception of Optimus Prime's height given in his Japanese Masterpiece paperwork), and we try to not have made-up stuff on this wiki. We also don't want copy/pasted anything, so if you want the tech specs, you can click the TFU.info link on the bottom of all the pages. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
:: -- Er, the Transformers is entirely made up. But I suppose what you mean is that this wiki possesses no authority on the matter. Okay. --[[Optimus DaVinci]]
:: Not to mention that such information would depend on the chracter's body... and Transformers have this tendancy to change bodies. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
::: And the inconsistency in size from panel to panel, frame to frame. Is Bumblebee 7 feet tall, 10 feet tall, 15 feet tall, or taller than all of the other car Autobots if you measure him out from his vehicle mode? If he's in his yellow hatchback body? His Throttlebot body? If he's a Camaro? An older Camaro? How big and heavy is he if he's an Action Master? How do we determine how much Transformers weigh? Do we know how dense their alloys are? How dense THEY are? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Considreing they needed to have a race to determine the fake Prime and didn't recognize Megatron was using all the other Decepticons' powers, I'd say pretty damn dense. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
::You know, while I realize WHY the tech specs aren't included here, I've always kind of thought it was one of the really obvious things that peopel visiting the Wiki would probably be looking for. Oh, well. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 16:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC), saying this like anyone besides us actually looks at this damn thing.
:::Who cares about them though? This is for '''us'''! ;)
:::IIRC, the theory is twofold.
* Optimus Prime has 15 tech-specs, which are more-or-less identical. Listhign them all is dumb.
* The External Links section should contain a link to someplace that has the spec. (Usually TFU.info covers it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]]17:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Star Wars (franchise)

2006-06-27T17:37:16Z

69.88.91.218:

Why are we assuming that the SW guys are TF-sized? Scale's pretty fucked up in Attacktix, considering we have Mini-Cons about as big as Super Mode Optimus... as is TIME, since you've got guys from all eras of SW-dom involved. The whole "these guys are TF sized" is massive fannon that I don't think has any place in here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
: Because in the absense of contradicting evidence, why should we assume otherwise? Assuming the SW humans are actually very small seems to be as much of a fan assumption. There are TF-sized humans in the TF universe. Plenty of them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
::I would argue that an "assumption" either way would be unwarrented, unless one wants to posit a) those pilots are not actually the Star Wars characters they seem intended to represent, or b) humans in the Star Wars universe are not the same size as Earth humans, I don't think Walky's got a very strong case. You need evidence to make statements like that. I vote to eliminate the scale passage.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
::Well, the main bugbear about the heights of the SW guys is that canon SW material has official heights and weights listed, and if Darth Vader is two meters tall, then clearly, either he grew or the TFs shrunk when they hung out. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 16:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
:::But for the purposes of this Wiki, we are not considering non-TF material. See [[Spider-Man]]'s page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
:::: Which doesn't ''make up'' anything about Spider-Man that is contradictroy to the actual material, just jokingly omits anything ghtat is not directly relevant to his time spent with the Transformers. That's different. And the scale issue, as previously noted, is ALREADY shaky at best since all the TRANSFORMERS save Omega Supreme and Sentinel end up the same size. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
::::: Spider-Man's entry does suggest his powers may come from his suit, which is the only logical conclusion we can gather from his single appearance, since the radioactive spider was never mentioned, and, hey, he has this suit. Likewise, since all the Attacktix material has Darth Vader attacking a similarly-sized Optimus Prime, that's not exactly an erroneous assumption. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::: I thought black-costume Spider-Man's whole GIG was "awesome super suit that did super shit". Before it went Venom. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Yeah, but he still had the proportionate strength of a spider and the ability to climb up walls. If the suit had those powers, it got them from him. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there even any necessary reason why the SW TFs and the SW/TF Attacktix figures are the same continuity as ''each other''?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 21:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
: Well, there's this big set that includes characters from both franchises, with art of them fighting each other, and it says they fight each other, and you're supposed to make them fight each other. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
:: Yes, I'm well aware of that, but that doesn't really answer my question.... For example, if the TF Attacktix ultimately includes, say, G1 characters, instead of just UT continuity TFs (an assumption, I know), that would be a fairly strong argument ''against'' considering such toys to be linked in continuity with the toy franchises from which they came, since G1 and UT are already considered separate.
:: In any event, I'm with Siph on this one. Scale is a hairy issue ''within'' each franchise as it is (indeed, always has been). I see no reason for making the assumption that SW humans (non-Attacktix, especially) are on TF scale on the basis of Attacktix figures which, admittedly, do fight each other hand to hand as if the humans were on such scale. It certainly looks to me like TF Attacktix won't fit in continuity even with the UT scale TFs themselves.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

:::I think the existance of Star Wars Transformers (should) override this question of scale. And yes- Iw ant a Star Wars/TF comic. Let Star Wars/TF be the result of a UT crossover for once! GO NUTS. I want TF to be insane. er. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Well, about those Star Wars TFs.... You realize, of course, that if we ''do'' accept that SW humans are TF sized, the SW Mecha of those Star Wars TF toys would represent HUGE TFs (along the lines of Don Figueroa's Macromasters).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, I thought that'd be pretty neat. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
::::::Be that as it may, it represents an unsubstantiated assumption about SW humans in general. The most we can say is that this is true within "Attacktix" continuity....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What's the relative scale RF/human on the art of them fighting one another? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It's been repeatedly established, at least throughout the G1 continuities, that most humanoid species are Transformer-sized. Furthermore, every piece of evidence points to the Star Wars characters being the same size as Transformers. I think it's pretty clear cut. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 03:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
:There are examples, to be sure, but I think "most" is a bit of a stretch. You certainly have at least TWO very prominent ones that are human sized in the comic alone. In fact, what humanoid species ARE there in the cartoon that are TF sized? And most of the TF-sized aliens in the comic aren't really humanoid. What other TF continuities are you referring to? And ''every'' piece of evidence points to SW characters being the same size as TFs? Siph's already pointed out that scale is wonky by noting that Mini-Cons and Super Prime are the same size. That's a least one piece of evidence that doesn't point to TF-sized SW humans right there. In short, I don't think the evidence is as clear cut as you seem to think it is....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
:: Also, there's the simple fact that there ARE established "real" heights for SW guys. Yeah, yeah, you can say "we don't cover outside fictions" all you want, but pretending they don't exist at all then making things up about them that are patently untrue only makes us look dumb, frankly, and goes against the "don't make shit up" standard we set. Omission is one thing... and this isn't omission, this is blatant fabrication and contradiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Alanna's people are Transformers-size, as are the Eurythmians, ...were the peopel from Face of the Nijika TF-sized?

:::More to the point-t hese guiant humans are actually CALLED Humans in many cases.

:::Mind, I think all of this is silly. The soto-voice comments int he article should be "it's not clear if the creatures are Transformer-sized as depicted on the box art or not." You lose very little of the humorous impact while no longer saying somethign that, as many objected to, is blatant fabrication- projecting non-story onto the cannon for the sake of humor. (Thing WE know to be non-story, even thought he cannon, being unaware of the larger body of Star Wars lore, does not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd actually be fine with a solution such as this. Incidentally, do you have source citations for these alien races you mention? My own memory of actual alien race names is fuzzy, and without bothering to check, I'm guessing that we likely haven't gotten around to creating entries for them yet.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::The [[Human]] article mentions a few Transformer-sized human races, such as the Femaxians and Miss Fatale from "Bird of Prey." Likewise, Cloudburst and Landmine were readily identified as humans when they went incognito on [[Grand Central Space Station]]. Nobody raised any eyebrows at them being thirty feet tall. I believe there were some in the cartoon, as well, but I'm less familiar with that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::: The "Human" article seems to mention only comic races, but even if the comic was the only source of "TF-sized" humans, it would certainly be sufficient for the sake of precedent, and I'm not trying to argue otherwise. Incidentally, I have never objected to the wording at the end of that article that says "It is ''possible'' that the tiny version of humans found on Earth is the exception, rather than the rule." (emphasis mine) The source of my objection is simply the "matter-of-fact" assumption given here that SW humans ''are'' TF-sized, on the basis of a toy line that seems to be outside of any kind of continuity to begin with.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::::I prefer to think that Atacktics is int he same continuity as the Armada video game. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, that art sure makes it LOOK like either the SW humans are huge, or the Transformers have been shrunk down.

And if you shrunk down the Transoformers, they'd have itty-bitty cockpits int hem that couldnt' fit anything! And that's just silly! -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 17:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Diver (G1)

2006-06-26T18:40:00Z

69.88.91.218:

''Diver is an [[Autobot]] in the [[Masterforce]] postion of [[Generation 1]] continuity.''


{{stub}}<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Prima

2006-06-08T20:11:17Z

69.88.91.218:

Is Prima pronounced 'Prime-uh' or 'Preem-ah'? -[[User:69.88.91.218|69.88.91.218]] 20:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>