MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

O'Malley's

2010-11-22T17:59:40Z

71.234.192.28: /* Notes */ storylinks don't belong in the middle of sentences

:''O'Malley's is a... place from the [[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]] portion of the [[Generation 1 continuity family]].''
[[Image:Rattrap_O'Malley's.jpg|right|195px|thumb|It totally exists.]]

'''O'Malley's''' is an establishment of some sort. Presumably, it has pretty comfortable [[Transformer furniture|stools]].

==Fiction==
====Dawn of Future's Past====
While preparing for an exploration mission that would end up as [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]], [[Rattrap]] mentioned he would rather "''be sittin' on [his] stool at O'Malley's''". {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}}

==Notes==
*[[The Agenda (Part 1)|Knowing Rattrap]], it must be a bar or something like that.
*It is most likely located on Cybertron. Yet Rattrap is known to be 'the best miner in the Vespa system', so it ''could'' be there. {{storylink|Dark Voyage}} Or somewhere else.

[[Category:Beast Wars locations]]
[[Category:Restaurants]]
[[Category:Timelines]]

Original

2010-10-03T17:37:08Z

71.234.192.28: /* Items of note */

{{comicstory
|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: Sector 7]]'' issue 1
|prev=Nefarious issue 6
|next=Sector 7 issue 2
|image=Sector7issue1 coverA.jpg
|caption=
|title=
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[September 29]], [[2010]]
|coverdate=September 2010
|writer=[[John Barber]]
|art=[[Joe Suitor]]
|inks=
|colors=
|letters=[[Chris Mowry]]
|editor=[[Andy Schmidt]]
|cover=[[Brian Rood]] [[Joe Suitor]]
|continuity=[[Live-action film series]]
|pagecount=32
|price=$3.99
}}
'''1898: by order of the President, an investigation is undertaken of a blind mental patient's claims of a thirty-six feet tall steel man...'''

==Synopsis==

{{issuestub}}

==Featured Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c2=
*[[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] (10)
*[[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]] (11)
|c3=
*[[Joseph Wells]] (1)
*[[Walter Simmons I]] (2)
*[[Billy North]] (4)
*[[Archibald Witwicky]] (5)
*[[Reginald Danco]] (6)
*[[Jack Arden]] (7)
*[[Phillp Bowen]] (8)
*[[Theodore Grant]] (9)
|c4=*[[Creatures]] (3)
}}

==Quotes==

==Errors==

*While the art keeps our heroes Joseph and Walter consistent (Joseph has dark hair and mutton chops, silver-haired Walter has a mustache), the script does not do them such favors. On page four, North refers to them as "Joseph Simmons" and "Walter Wells", and on the following page, Joseph mispronounces "Witwicky" as "Wickety", just as [[Seymour Simmons]] did in [[Transformers (2007)|the first movie]], a joke to seemingly prove the two characters' relation. From page eight onward, however, the pair's surnames are switched, and the whole story becomes framed by excerpts from the journal of "Walter Simmons", indicating that ''he'' is actually supposed to be the Simmons in this story.
*Compounding the problem, on page fourteen, Arden refers to "Wells" as "the fat one", but Walter is the plumper of the two (yet not so noticeably as to be a defining feature).
*John Barber's continuity notes at the end of the issue confirm that Walter is Simmons, but give Wells's name as "Theodore"!

==Items of note==

*Joseph, Walter and Danco all previously appeared, unnamed, in the [[Movie Prequel issue 2|second issue]] of the [[Movie Prequel|Movie Prequel]] comic. A building containing mysterious objects that appeared to be Sector Seven's headquarters appeared in that comic, at a time before the movie itself claimed the organization was supposed to have been founded, but is here [[retcon]]ned away as being Walter and Joseph's trophy collection from the various strange adventures and treasure-hunts they've been on.
*Walter evidently passes his name on to his son, since another [[Walter Simmons II|Walter Simmons]] appears in the first movie prequel novel, "[[Ghosts of Yesterday]]".
*The ship's manifest seen on page nine is the list of the "[[First Seven]]" released on the internet during the [[Sector Seven (game)|Sector Seven alternate reality game]] promotion for the first movie. The names are here established to be aliases for the real men.
*Jetfire's appearance in this issue comes during the time he was wandering the Earth, previously glossed over in the final pages of [[Tales of the Fallen issue 3|''Tales of the Fallen'' #3]].
*The ship Jetfire accidentally destroys, the [[wikipedia:USS Maine (ACR-1)|USS ''Maine'']], was a real-life ship, the sinking of which started the Spanish-American War. Nice goin' there, Jetfire.
*On page fourteen, Bowen is reading ''The War of the Worlds'' by H.G. Wells (for whom Joseph is named).
*Early online solicitations for this issue accidentally claimed it was being written and drawn by the creative team of IDW's ''True Blood'' comic. Copy-paste cock-up!

===Covers (3)===
*'''Cover A:''' Archibald discovers Megatron, sepia version by [[Brian Rood]] of [[:Image:TFSector7 1 coverRI.jpg|art]] originally by [[Josh Nizzi]].
*'''Cover B:''' Sector 7 flotsam and jetsam by [[Joe Suitor]].
*'''Cover RI:''' An incentive cover of the flotsam and jetsam in lovely black borders.

<gallery>
Image:Sector7issue1 coverA.jpg|
Image:Sector7issue1 CoverB.jpg|
Image:TFSector7issue1 coverRI.jpg|
</gallery>

===Advertisements===

[[Category:IDW Revenge of the Fallen issues]]

Talk:Doctor

2010-09-02T22:07:19Z

71.234.192.28:

I demand this be moved to "Doctor (Who)" --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:25, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

-Second [[User:ShiningBlitz|ShiningBlitz]] 12:56, 6 January 2010 (EST)

-Third
--[[User:Kaymac192|Kaymac192]] 14:55, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

-Works for me. External properties shouldn't get disambiguated by the TF franchise they crossover with. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:20, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

-I agree. This is inconsistent with our other external property pages and it's kinda ridiculous. And not in a good way. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 16:03, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
:This isn't a page about external properties, this is a page about the Doctor that's mentionned in pages of a Generation 1 comic. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:14, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
::Said Doctor being an external property. Or has Hasbro bought the BBC?--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:29, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
:::I think the point is (Who) as a disambiguation, cute though that may be, has no basis in Transformers. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 16:31, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
::::I can see the logic of your point entirely and I'm completely in agreement with you...but as a Who fanboy, I'd love it if we made an exception :) --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 16:37, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::I just think that franchise disambiguations should be reserved for actual TF characters. For example, if a new G1 universe character called "the Doctor" it could not be called Doctor (G1). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:52, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::We do not do disambiguations based on hypothetical situations. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:53, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::So why is it [[Tomahawk (G.I. Joe)]] and not [[Tomahawk (G1)]]? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:59, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Because the guy who moved that page didn't do it right. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:02, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Also, G.I. Joe is a thing documented to exist within Transformers. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 18:07, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Doctor

2010-09-02T20:31:58Z

71.234.192.28:

Talk:Godzilla

2010-02-27T21:59:40Z

71.234.192.28: /* Merge */

Godzilla is not actually mentioned by name -- the entire panel is as follows:

CAPTION: In the flying headquarters of America's super-spy organization, S.H.I.E.L.D. ...

"DUM DUM": We gotta check out what's going on in Oregon, Nicholas.

"NICHOLAS": Dum Dum, if that big green, fire-snortin' lizard is loose again, '''I quit!'''

In keeping with the idea that this is a Transformers wiki and the spirit of the Spider-Man article, I think this Godzilla article should be modified to indicate that the lizard is ''speculated'' to be Godzilla, or perhaps even deleted entirely. Additionally, "Nick Fury" is more information than we have to go on here. He should simply be called [[Nicholas]], with perhaps a side note that he is probably meant to be a TF-verse version of Marvel's Nick Fury.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

: You are so incredibly un-fun sometimes, Steve-O. Why don't you go jump a golf cart over a volcano or whatever the hell it is you do on TV? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 21:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
:On a side-note, the most notable big green fire-snortin lizard in regular Marvel continuity is [[wikipedia:Fin Fang Foom|Fin Fang Foom]], but this probably isn't relevant in a TF context. [[User:KingAndy|KingAndy]] 11:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Could the existance of [http://members.aol.com/regenesis0/hojoni.jpg Hojoni], a fictionalized version of Godzilla int he TFU, be taken as support for the idea that the REAL Godzilla exists in the TFU, and was inspiration for Hojoni? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

: What's the source on Hojoni? I'd love to see an article on him, but I have no clue what he's from. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 05:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Fin Fang Foom was recently added to this article. I think that for clarity, it would be best to combine this article with Hojoni in some way so that the explanations can all be consolidated instead of fractured or repeated across two articles. It's true that Fin Fang Foom is a plausible Marvel-explanation for Nicholas' comment, but explaining that would require duplicating much of the Godzilla discussion on the Hojoni page. We may want to dump [[dragon]] into the amalgamated article, too. Any thoughts on this proposal? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely this article belongs in a Marvel Wiki rather than a TF Wiki (at least as much as it belongs anywhere)? I know there is a very tenuous crossover from the original 4-issue comic with Spiderman, but this still doesn't include green dragons, and is generally regarded as non-canon. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider deleting this article.

--[[User:Sofaman|Sofaman]] 03:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
: That panel is from a TF comic. Could you please explain how "green dragons" aren't included when it's clearly mentioned right there? --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 04:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
:: Suki is right. This panel happened. It belongs in the wiki, whether it was ignored later or not. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

:::Fair call then I guess. :S --[[User:Sofaman|Sofaman]] 11:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

==Merge==
Well, it was a good run, but with an actual canonical [[Godzilla]] page, I think intentionally dividing up the two of them becomes pretty silly. Already, any ACTUAL legitimate reference to Godzilla should point there instead of here. That being the case, the entire point of this particular page BECOMES the joke, and I'm not sure that the joke is worth it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:35, 27 February 2010 (EST)
:Sad as it is to lose a joke from practically the wiki's birth, I'll second the merge. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:37, 27 February 2010 (EST)
::Gah, I feel like the guy who spoiled Christmas now :( --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 10:44, 27 February 2010 (EST)
::::Don't feel too bad, Emvee. It's actually better in the long run to be able to cleanly make connections. Already the [[Ginrai#Notes|God Ginrai]] and [[Deathsaurus#Notes|Deathsaurus]] name trivia notes are that much more clear.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:06, 27 February 2010 (EST)
:::Merge em. '''--Spengs (at work, can't log in)'''
::::Ditto on merge. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 16:19, 27 February 2010 (EST)
:::::Merge. But we can still leave it as a redirect, right? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:21, 27 February 2010 (EST)
I am against merging. For this one case, I say leave the joke as it is. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 16:59, 27 February 2010 (EST)

Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)

2010-01-27T10:26:43Z

71.234.192.28: Theft of the Golden Disk really isn't an episode of the cartoon

{{Nav-bw}}

Though [[Trukk not munky|reviled]] by many Transfans when it first hit the airwaves in 1996, the wholly-[[CGI]] '''''Beast Wars''''' is now considered by many to be among the finest examples of Transformers storytelling.

:''Canadian name:'' '''Beasties'''
:''Japanese name (season 1):'' '''Super Lifeform Transformers Beast Wars''' (超生命体トランスフォーマー　ビーストウォーズ, Chō Seimeitai Transformers Beast Wars)
:''Japanese name (season 2-3):'' '''Super Lifeform Transformers Beast Wars Metals''' (超生命体トランスフォーマー　ビーストウォーズ　メタルス, Chō Seimeitai Transformers Beast Wars Metals)
:''French name:'' '''Animutants'''
:''French name (Canada):'' '''Robots-Bêtes'''
:''Italian name:'' '''Biocombat'''
:''Latin-American name:'' '''Guerra de Bestias'''
:''Polish name:'' '''Kosmiczne Wojny''' ("Cosmic Wars")

==Overview==
The series opens at an unspecified time and place, where two warring factions of robots have crashed on a strange planet populated by animals like those on [[Earth]]. The planet abounds in mystery, with vast deposits of raw [[Energon (fuel)|Energon]] and evidence of [[Vok|alien]] activity. The Energon forces the newly arrived Transformers to take on protective beast forms to shield themselves from the ambient Energon radiation. And so begin the Beast Wars...

[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Rattrap and Airazor conspire to ruin school picture day.]]
Though at first the show seemed to be in an entirely separate continuity, by the end of the first season's 26 episodes, viewers had been treated to a number of classical Transformers references, such as [[Unicron]] and even the reappearance of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], last seen as a ghost in the third season of [[The Transformers (cartoon)|the original cartoon]]. These ties to the original story increased as the second season progressed and the planet was revealed as prehistoric Earth, the characters having been thrown back in time. The third season was entirely structured around the [[Maximal]]s defending their dormant [[Autobot]] ancestors aboard the ancient crashed [[Ark (G1)|Ark]].

The show won over many viewers through fun, intriguing stories and generally high production values. Strong characterization, top-notch scripting and voice acting, and complex, overarching plot threads are among the reasons cited for the show's enduring popularity. Some of the show's mysteries and machinations remain topics for fan debate over a decade after it aired.

The show's CGI, though somewhat primitive by today's standards, was revolutionary by television standards of the time (and puts [[Energon (cartoon)|some later shows]] to [[Cybertron (cartoon)|shame]]). Mainframe's animators took pains to ensure their characters gestured and emoted in great detail, and the "camera" work often took creative advantage of the format's flexibility.

The show was immediately followed by a sequel series, ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
{{-}}

==Episodes==
{{main|List of Beast Wars episodes}}

''Beast Wars'' has had 52 episodes over 3 seasons.

===Season 1: 1996–1997===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Beast Wars (Part 1)]]
# [[Beast Wars (Part 2)]]
# [[The Web]]
# [[Equal Measures]]
# [[Chain of Command]]
# [[Power Surge]]
# [[Fallen Comrades]]
# [[Double Jeopardy]]
# [[A Better Mousetrap]]
# [[Gorilla Warfare]]
# [[The Probe]]
# [[Victory (episode)|Victory]]
# [[Dark Designs (episode)|Dark Designs]]
# [[Double Dinobot]]
# [[The Spark]]
# [[The Trigger, Part 1]]
# [[The Trigger, Part 2]]
# [[Spider's Game]]
# [[Call of the Wild]]
# [[Dark Voyage]]
# [[Possession]]
# [[The Low Road]]
# [[Law of the Jungle]]
# [[Before the Storm]]
# [[Other Voices, Part 1]]
# [[Other Voices, Part 2]]}}

===Season 2: 1997–1998===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Aftermath]]
# [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1)]]
# [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)]]
# [[Tangled Web]]
# [[Maximal, No More]]
# [[Other Visits (Part 1)]]
# [[Other Visits (Part 2)]]
# [[Bad Spark]]
# [[Code of Hero]]
# [[Transmutate (episode)|Transmutate]]
# [[The Agenda (Part 1)]]
# [[The Agenda (Part 2)]]
# [[The Agenda (Part III)]]}}

===Season 3: 1998–1999===
{{columnlist|4|
# [[Optimal Situation]]
# [[Deep Metal]]
# [[Changing of the Guard]]
# [[Cutting Edge]]
# [[Feral Scream Part 1]]
# [[Feral Scream Part 2]]
# [[Proving Grounds]]
# [[Go with the Flow]]
# [[Crossing the Rubicon]]
# [[Master Blaster]]
# [[Other Victories]]
# [[Nemesis Part 1]]
# [[Nemesis Part 2]]}}

==Characters==
Because developing new CGI character models was, at the time, an expensive and time-consuming process, the number of on-screen characters in ''Beast Wars'' was relatively small compared to most other ''Transformers'' shows. It is thus practical to list all the Transformers who appeared in the cartoon. They are listed in order of appearance. (The [[stasis lock]]ed [[Autobot]]s and [[Decepticon]]s aboard the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] are not on this list.) Note that many characters besides these are also full-fledged ''Beast Wars'' characters, having appeared in other media.
[[Image:BW Maximals.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Time for Rattrap to lead.]]
[[Image:BW Predacons.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Waspinator is loved by fans.]]

{{-}}

{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s|c1=
*[[Optimus Primal]] ([[Garry Chalk]])
*[[Rattrap]] ([[Scott McNeil]])
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] ([[Richard Newman]])
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] ([[Ian James Corlett]])
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]]* ([[Scott McNeil]])
*[[Tigerhawk]] ([[Blu Mankuma]])
**[[Tigatron]] ([[Blu Mankuma]])
**[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] ([[Pauline Newstone]])
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] ([[Scott McNeil]])
*[[Depth Charge (BW)|Depth Charge]] ([[David Sobolov]])
|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]|c2=
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] ([[David Kaye]])
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (([[Don Brown]])
** [[cyberbee]]
*[[Tarantulas]] ([[Alec Willows]])
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] ([[Doug Parker]])
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] ([[Scott McNeil]])
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]]† ([[Venus Terzo]])
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] ([[Jim Byrnes]])
*[[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] ([[Colin Murdoch]])
*[[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] ([[Campbell Lane]])
*[[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] ([[Lee Tockar]])
*[[Dinobot II]] ([[Scott McNeil]])
'''[[Tripredacus Council]]'''
*[[Ram Horn]] ([[Lee Tockar]])
*[[Sea Clamp]] ([[Ian James Corlett]])
*[[Cicadacon]] ([[Scott McNeil]])
|c4=
*[[Snowstalker]]
*[[Transmutate (character)|Transmutate]] ([[Susan Blu]])
*Assorted [[Vok]] ([[Blu Mankuma]] and [[Richard Newman]])
'''[[Decepticon]]s'''
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] ([[Doug Parker]])
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] ([[Garry Chalk]])
'''[[Protohuman]]s'''
*[[Leader Neanderthal]] ([[Garry Chalk]])
*[[Chak]]
*[[Una]]
|nonumbering=true
}}
<nowiki>*</nowiki> Allied with the Maximals, nominally a Predacon.

† Became a Maximal towards the end of the series.

==International releases==
===Japan===
In Japan the show was split into 2 separate 26 episode series, ''Beast Wars'' which aired in 1997 (consisting of Canadian season 1) and ''Beast Wars Metals'' which aired in 1999 (consisting of Canadian seasons 2 and 3). The ''Beast Wars Metals'' series featured two additional clip shows:

*Episode 14: "[[Where Is the Banana?]]"
*Episode 26: "[[Remix: I Lost the Banana!]]"

Japan crafted two separate theatrical releases, the first being "[[Beast Wars Special Super Lifeform Transformers]]" (premiering the episode "[[Bad Spark]]" as well as two other segments) and a triple feature of short animated films based on [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] toylines (premiering the episode "[[Cutting Edge]]"). Since these episodes were released theatrically, they are not included in the show's proper 26 episode list, with their places being taken by the pair of aforementioned clip shows.

Additionally, for whatever reason, the Japanese dub of ''Beast Wars'' and ''Beast Wars Metals'' notoriously chose to turn the series into a goofy comedy show with lots of fourth-wall humor and a relentless string of over-the-top and in-your-face jokes, even at the most ''inappropriate'' of moments.

Some examples include:

* The beginning of every episode would start with one of the characters asking a ridiculous question and receiving equally ridiculous answers (Optimus Primal asking "Where is my banana", for instance) before segueing into the [[War War! Stop It|opening rap theme]] by [[Banana Ice]]. (On that music note, "[[For the Dream|FOR THE DREAM]]" is the closing song, while "[[Hello! Toughness]]" was the ending song for the special "[[Clash! Beast Warriors]]".)
* Rattrap would constantly break the fourth wall by "smelling" what the audience was eating and make gluttonous comments.
* Many characters received completely new personalities that were polar opposites to their Western interpretation (Depth Charge enjoyed singing folk songs while Megatron became a flamboyant madman that shrieked like a little girl at the sight of danger). Other characters had their ''genders'' altered (poor, poor Airazor).
* Clipshows would feature the characters interacting in silly situations such as gameshows and contests (in one instance, Megatron acted as judge in a celebrity impersonation contest).
While many long-time ''Transformers'' fans in Japan reviled this dub (including [[Hirofumi Ichikawa]]) it remained a hit with its target audience: young children. At any rate, this version of ''Beast Wars'' was popular enough to spawn two equally goofy-natured spin-offs, ''[[Beast Wars II (cartoon)|Beast Wars II]]'' and ''[[Beast Wars Neo (cartoon)|Beast Wars Neo]]'', and two Japanese-exclusive theatrical releases.

However, [[Pioneer|Pioneer's]] Japanese DVD sets of the series come with optional English language dialogue with Japanese subtitles, allowing fans in Japan to view the more serious version of the show if desired.

===United Kingdom===

[[Image:UK Beast Wars Vol3 VHS.jpg|left|150px|thumb|]]
When originally aired on GMTV in the United Kingdom, ''Beast Wars'' was only screened on school holidays, usually in double bills on Bank Holidays, and one episode per morning on half-term weeks, meaning that only a few episodes were shown a year, with wide gulfs in between (most prominently, ''three months'' passed between the airings of "Other Visits" parts [[Other Visits (Part 1)|1]] and [[Other Visits (Part 2)|2]]). In a sign of things to come, "[[Beast Wars (Part 1)]]" was shown some 25 minutes earlier than billed due to re-scheduled news reports, meaning many fans missed the entire opening episode. Things went from bad to worse when "[[Equal Measures]]" was skipped, and only continued when, after "[[Victory (episode)|Victory]]", the series skipped directly to "[[Other Voices, Part 1]]". The entirety of the second season followed the conclusion of the first, but the channel never aired the third season; although it was subsequently released on VHS, the cliffhanger-resolving "[[Optimal Situation]]" was only available as a free gift with purchase at [[Toys"R"Us]].

[[Image:UK Beast Wars Beginning Vol1 VHS.jpg|right|150px|thumb|]]
Additionally, these GMTV airings were modified in various ways. The first and most foremost alteration was the removal of the word "Transformers" from the series' title, which was only reinstated with "[[Other Voices, Part 1]]". With regard to the actual content, the earliest episodes generally had nothing more extreme than the removal of uses of the word "[[Slag (slang)|slag]]" (as it is effectively a synonym for "slut" in English slang), but with the beginning of the second season, edits were steadily made to episodes for no readily apparent reasons. Additionally, any scenes featuring flashing images were routinely put through a filter that slowed such scenes down to comical levels. This culminated in a butchered version of "[[The Agenda (Part 1)|The Agenda]]", which snipped out many short scenes throughout all three episodes for no reason, from inconsequential moments like Tarantulas cackling and driving out of his lab in Part 1, to key scenes such as Silverbolt and Optimus Primal's "office talk" in Part 2, and in what was the last straw for many fans, the complete second half of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s speech (''the part explaining [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]'s entire motivation''), also from Part 2.

[[Image:UK Beast Wars Vol2 DVD.jpg|left|150px|thumb|]]
During the time they had the rights to the series, GMTV also showed the entirety of seasons one and two on the then cable-only channel ITV 2.

Almost the entire run of the show ended up on VHS from 2000 to 2001, oddly missing "[[Aftermath]]" and "Optimal Situation". This time, cuts were gone! Characters could rightfully swear! '''Season 3 was finally released!''' Season 3 got the first release, in Volumes 1 through 4, with box art of characters being used on the covers. Then, Season 2 got collected as well, as... Volumes 5 through 8. (''That'' must've confused some kiddies.) Finally, Season 1 was collected as ''Beast Wars: The Beginning''. These later releases used CGI art. DVD collections have so far been absent, beyond two super-cheap DVD releases by [[Universal]]. The first collected "The Agenda" through to "Cutting Edge", followed by one just collecting "Feral Scream" and "Proving Grounds". They're now out of print.

Channel 5, a terrestrial channel, showed the entire series in its complete form in 2003. Thankfully. This got rerun too, leading to the ''Beast Wars'' comics getting [[Transformers (Titan Magazine)|used as reprints in Titan's Movie-based comic]].

{{-}}

===France===
In France and (French) Belgium, the show was called "Animutants" and had a good quality dubbing, rather close to the original voices. But while the first two seasons of the show were aired, the third one never was; the show always ended with "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]", leaving the viewers in the area with the worst case of cliffhanger ever.

===Vietnam===
In Vietnam, the show was called "Chiến tranh quái vật vũ trụ" (Galaxy Monster Wars). The show was released on VHS tapes with a very good Vietnamese dub, then it was copied to VCD. Unfortunately, as happened in France, only the first two seasons were aired. It ended with "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]", and left the fans with a cliffhanger.

===Germany===
The German dub used the original title, ''Beast Wars'''. The show was initially very successful on the TV Station RTL2 and was released on VHS. However, only the first season was shown and dubbed. Furthermore, the TV broadcast had many fight scenes censored to comply with Germany's strict laws against TV violence; however, the VHS Release was uncut. After many reruns the show was cancelled and the second and third Season were never shown in Germany.

==Trivia==
* The first season of ''Beast Wars'' cost $18 million, according to [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/browse_thread/thread/b334d45514e26ab4/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&lnk=st&q=bob+forward+interview+inferno+megatron&rnum=1#bc8e54e9165e0823 a 1997 interview with Bob Forward].
* [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-CLUB_%28%E6%A8%A1%E5%9E%8B%E9%9B%91%E8%AA%8C%29 B-Club magazine] erroneously claims that ''Beast Wars'' is the first fully CGI television show in the world, a title actually held by ''[[:wikipedia:Insektors|Insektors]]''. Mainframe's own CGI show ''[[wikipedia:ReBoot|ReBoot]]'' also predates ''Beast Wars''.
* The Production Designer for the show, [[Clyde Klotz]], won an Emmy for Outstanding Individual Achievement in Animation in 1997. How cool is that?

==See also==
*[[Dark Glass]] was an unproduced script intended for season 3.

[[Category:Beast Wars| Beast Wars (cartoon)]]
[[Category:Mainframe]]
[[Category:Television series]]

Talk:Structure

2009-11-25T00:46:17Z

71.234.192.28:

I'm not sure this article is really justified... I haven't watched the episode recently, but, is this word really presented as specialized terminology rather than just as... like, English? Is the superstructure/substructure stuff supported by canon? I don't want us to be falsely implying that these are specific, "real" terms rather than just normal words. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

:I'd think an article on exo-structure would be more logical.
:Nothign that the whole body was called a Structure in one G1 ep would make more sense as a sub-set of that. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
::Spotlight: Nightbeat referred to the vehicle kibble as superstructure, which is what I'm recalling it from.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]]

It was Teletraan-1 who gae a history on the [[Renegade Decepticon]]s and said that their [[Personality component]]'s were removed from their structures and that the structures were destroyed. To me, I took "personality component" and "structure" as specialized terminology. I read somewhere about the exo-structure thing but couldnt find it otherwise I would have mentioned it in that article perhaps. Anyway, hope that helps. -- [[User:Darth Batrus|Darth Batrus]]
:That seems fair, but it seems ot be we've got 3 terms here.
:* '''Structure''' — (G1 'toon, and implicitly in the exo-structure of latter-day stuff, as well as the superstructure noted above)
:* '''Shell''' — The BW term for the same.
:* '''Armor''' — The UT term for the same.
:These terms seem to be inter-exchangeable. "The body from which your glowy-thing seat-of-consciousness can be yanked or inserted." If we are to have 1 article instead of 3 (and I think that's wise) then we have to decide where it should live.
:* "Structure" is incredibly obscure, and is validated primary due to weak derivatives. (I might also cite an absence of Author intent behind those derivatives... except I ignore Author Intent anyway.)
:* "Armor", though used in more than one UT series, is still very far background. (And just ''wierd''.)
:* "Shell" has deep penetration, was used in BW/BM which continues to set the standard for the terminology which followed, etc. It's also the term which formalized the Spark/Shell separation.
:(Basically I strongly reccomend this article be moved to "Shell.") -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:27, 24 November 2009 (EST)
::Wait, when was "shell" used in Beast Wars? Off the top of my head, I can't think of an occurrence. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 19:46, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Talk:Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:46:44Z

71.234.192.28: /* So They're not all Primes! */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 20:46, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Category talk:Real world films

2009-09-19T08:04:10Z

71.234.192.28:

"Real world" films? Is this necessary? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 04:05, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:To separate real and fictional things? Uh, yes? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:30, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::Well, for starters, the precedent established by [[:Category:Video games]] and [[:Category:Fictional video games]] suggests that this category is misnamed. But frankly, I see no reason for fictional films (or fictional video games, for that matter) to warrant a category of their own. --[[Special:Contributions/71.234.192.28|71.234.192.28]] 04:04, 19 September 2009 (EDT)