MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Thirteen

2009-06-23T11:10:56Z

71.235.138.121: /* "New Divide" video */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a [[WARendfeld]] story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

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Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
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As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Omniverse

2009-06-21T11:02:57Z

71.235.138.121: /* Taken to Trivia */ new section

Wow, roughly .5% of this page is actually about Transformers. You outdo yourself, Derik. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:43, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

... --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 01:43, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:The Omniverse is a ''fundamentally'' not "About Transformers."
:Yet we have the Omniversal matrix, which is Transformers-- so what is the Omniverses? We have the TF Multiverse... but we also have worlds ''not'' part of the TF Multiverse.
:''An'' article about the Omniverse as a structure containing multiple Multiverses is needed. Whether or not ''this'' is that article is a question. And frankly, part of the reason this has so much "non-Transformers" material is because this article ''also'' has to define what the hell a Multiverse is, since our [[Multiverse]] article is an out-fiction description of how TFWiki organize continuity familties that talks about the in-fiction concept of a TF multiverse as an afterthought. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:50, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::....what? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:16, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

''This article does not confine itself to material published in Transformers fiction.'' In other words, you've managed to create an article that makes the argument for its own deletion right from the start! --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:19, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Fuck you too buddy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::There's no need to be insulting. Look, this article is simply outside of this wiki's purview, and blatantly so. If you wanted to "define what the hell a Multiverse is" you should have created the article at [[Multiverse]], which is currently a redirect, and focused solely on Transformers. The possible intersection of the TF multiverse with Marvel's and such would be at most a trivia note. Explaining things like what the common anchor of the Wildstorm universes is.... has nothing to do with Transformers. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:57, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't want to define what the TF Multiverse is. I want to define what ''a'' multiverse is and how it functions, what the structure multiverses rest in and how they interact, the rules by which crossovers like TF/Avengers function (because they ''do'' have fixed rules and an explanation for why the hell two worlds seem to temporarily overlap that were established on the Marvel side-- and that ''is'' relevant to TF, since those rules are being '''used''' in TF) and use the framework of solid ground created by pinning down ''those'' things to figure out the Marvel comics timelines, timestorm and Earthforce-- and how time, dimensions, and time-travel and possible futures function in the TF Multiverse.
:::But you can't really ''do'' any of that without a solid framework. Everything devolves into vague unknowability: "This is how Cybertron functions as a multiversal axis." "You don't know that, it seems vague to m!." "It's ''how'' Multiversal Axes function. Here's a dozen examples of other multiversal axes that work the same way, and the circumstantial edvidence in TF showign that it works the same way here." "Those aren't from Transformers. You need examples from Transformers." "You ''cannot'' find an example of other multiversal axes within TF fiction, because all of TF fiuction takes places within a ''single multiverse''." [[Omniverse]] is supposed to be a starting point to set some ground rules or common understanding for those other articles to be built on. Just like pinning down ''exactly'' what any other sort of terminology means enables you to figure out more about the universe, the structure of the multiverse and Omniverse is something that ''needs'' to be covered by this Wiki if there's to ever be any hope of '''figuring out''' the TF Multiverse.
:::Also, I accept your apology for being so insulting. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:18, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::You know, I really wish you were still posting on ATT, or some other TF forum, because I think that might be a much better place for you to theorize about this stuff. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:40, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Theorization doesn't generally include footnotes and citations like this article.
:::::Or were you just being snide by implying that I planned to jizz fanwank over any future articles that might come out of this? That the TF stuff ''wouldn't'' be footnoted out the ass? That's the entire '''point''' Ethan, to lay a foundation and start picking apart and comparing what the TF canon actually ''says''. The point is to replace fanon and vague conjuncture and fuzzy understanding with ''fact''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:55, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I wasn't being snide! I miss your ATT posts! They were often fascinating stuff, and they don't end up with you getting pissed off when stuff you write has to be deleted because the rest of us aren't capable of seeing the world in Derik-vision. I think the fundamental problem here is that when i comes to "how the TF multiverse works" vague conjucture and fuzzy understandings are all we're ever likely to have on this subject, because most of the folks responsible for creating the canon didn't/don't actually give a crap about creating anything consistent and logical to explain this stuff, i.e., the ''facts'' that you're looking for. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 04:27, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At which point is becomes ''useful'' to have comparative examples outside the TF Multiverse. The One seems to have inserted Unicron and Primus into the Universe back when it was a single universe, (or at least a lockstep one) not a multiverse. The DC Multiverse was a single universe that shattered. Likewise, IIRC the entire Marvel Multiverse as we know it today resulted from the previous universe dying when its Multiversal axis was destroyed. Axis failure ''exists'' in the TF Multiverse... but we've never seen it. [[Unicron Singularity|Localized Multiversal collapses]] ''exist'' in the TF Multiverse... but we've only ever gotten the ''most'' cockeyed view of what the mechanics involved are.
:::::::And frankly, I think that the way time works in TF ''does'' make sense, it's just complicated. (I mean... there's some implication that the TF Multiverse is executing asynchronously, like a domino cascade, instead of in true parallel. That's one of the most complicated fictional multiverse mechanisms I've ''ever'' heard of if it's true... but it also makes a certain amount of sense, because it recognizes the state-machine evolution of Transformers fiction, while absorbing a ''lot'' of the problems that causes.)
:::::::Look, to write "[[Junkion trader]]," I looked over every appearance this guy had-- ever-- in detail, and a pattern emerged-- he seems to take point if Junkion trading operations. If '''nothing''' else, the TF Multiverse and time travel will make sense on ''that'' level, being able to say "well, looking at a bunch of vague examples, this appears to be the mechanism."
:::::::But I'm mroe optimistic than that. Furman's not shy about rattling off explanations. And the guidebooks do their part. I genuinely think that the TF canon itself explains how the Multiverse and time work... if you take the time to compile all the references together and figure out how they fit together. There ''does'' seem to be an underlying pattern, so the task is to track down the ''explicit'' references that turn that from a vague pattern into a crisp one with clear outlines. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:48, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I was being rather rude to Kil, and not my normal confrontational/constructive rude, just mean. I apologize.
::::::::I guess what I'm frustrated about is... the deletion request doesn't seem to be because of concern the article is inaccurate-- merely that it's outside of TF's pervue. But the Omniverse ''has'' been mentioned in TF-- and more than that it's ''active'' in TF, at crossover points, and there's some stuff abotut he nature, structure and extent of the TF Multiverse that ''should'' be covered by TFWiki-- but aren't anywhere, to which the answer seems to be "then split this and start a Multiverse article." If the content needs to be on the wiki and isn't-- Deletion seems just ''wrong''. If I was just haring off after a wild goose I wouldn't care-- but there's tuff here that '''in some form''' needs to be part of this site.
::::::::The details of this article ''do'' deal most entirely with non-TF properties... but that's because this article is about how the fictional construct of the TF Multiverse interacts and relates to the fictional constructs of those other properties-- and I think that it's important to have these examples (including universes that haven't directly interacted with TF) in order to give a proper sense of the general structure that the TF Multiverse fits in. I'm not imposing those on the Tf Multiverse-- you'd be hard pressed to make the ''more'' explicitly Universe than an article whose entire mandate is ''"beyond the TF Multiverse lies...?" '' tha parallax is useful precievely because TF ''conforms'' to the general model-- so these other examples simply reinforce in a meaningful way what's already there in TF, but hard to distinguish.
::::::::Anyway, I'm going to sleep. I'd ask (Kil particularly) to think about how they think this information should be structured. The article I created was meant to be a starting point of a ''big'' project to describe the ''very'' widest view of the Transformers multiverse-- a forrest whose shape is often difficult to make out amid a sea of details. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:58, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

You can save this article, but it will require a blowtorch. I recommend a general anesthetic first:
* Delete the "list of multiverses". Only TFs have any business being there.
* Delete "functional infinity" section.
* Condense the "multiverse" section into the introductory paragraph. If you ''absolutely must'' include DC adn Marvel and Vincent Price, mention them here as "some typical multiverses are A, B and C, period." xref: [[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]], where there used to be this big long pointless paragraph of wankery about... I don't know, Marvel Ultimate or some shit, and now there's just "kinda like Star Trek or that other one." -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 02:47, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:But I have no ''interest'' in reducing it to a 1-paragraph article, and that reduces its usefulness as a link-to-point when discussing cross-multiversal crossovers.
:We have an article called "Multiverse" that's an out-fiction description of how TFWiki treats Continuity families.
:If the Death's Head article wants to explain that DH then crossed outside of the scope of the Transformers multiverse... where is it supposed to link to?
:The TF Multiverse itself contains properties like G.I. Joe, Battle Beasts, M.A.S.K., etc. Our "Multiverse" page doesn't tell you this, because it's dedicated ''not'' to the TF Multiverse (the set of universes for which Cybertron is apparently the Stable Axis) but to "the Transformers canon covered by this wiki." And the TF canon is ''much smaller'' than the body of works included in the TF multiverse.
:I'm just saying... some of those bits you're suggesting blowtorching off are important. And if they don't belong here, ''where should they go?'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:00, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::As noted above, we ''don't'' have an article called "Multiverse." That's a redirect. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:36, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote keep w/ rewrite. Needs a little history of the term omniverse (invented by Mark Gruenwald, etc.) and a better explanation of just how exactly it connects to Transformers. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 04:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

== Fly in the ointment ==
Gobotron.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:31, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:What about it? Bug Bite includes his own universe among the 15 quadrillion of the TF Multiverse, so presumably the universe Gobotron is from is part of it. Either Gobotron is Cybertron (unlikely) or Cybertron is simply obscure and distant, or long dead-- but still acting as an axis-- in his universe.
:The GoBots universe doesn't seem to be 'special,' there are more than one of them... (SG BugBite, remember? He's not a singularity...) so it's jsut a very different-looking type of TF Universe, like the Squadron Supreme Earth is a Marvel Universe under the hood (it have Skrulls, the Darkforce, the same high-level cosmic entities, etc.) despite looking quite different on the surface. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:51, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
==Finite Omniverse==
How the hell does one calculate the number of Universes in the Omniverse?
:Heinlen calculated the total volume of the Omniverse by multiplying its height, width and breadth. (Only it's sorta teseracty, because each dimension loops around back to its starting place, so it's more like degrees on a protractor.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:29, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Isn't the point that it goes on forever and ever? If the Omniverse is finite, it kind throws a loop in all those "dude, if you think about it, there's probobly a Universe were Star Wars is ''real''" theories that nerds come up with when their high. [[Special:Contributions/24.192.196.242|24.192.196.242]] 06:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Careful, Derik. You keep bringing up non-Transformers stuff here and you'll end up attracting Omnios! --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 05:48, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

== Taken to Trivia ==

I grabbed the few points out of this that actually seemed strongly relevent to TFs and brought them over to the Trivia section of the Multiverse article. How's that? --[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:02, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Continuity

2009-06-21T10:59:59Z

71.235.138.121: My attempt tp salvage the few salient points from the Omniverse ramble

[[Image:Continuities.png|right|450px|thumb|Now you put all that in a blender and you get the Japanese continuity.]]
A '''continuity''' is a fictional universe or timeline that is characterized by recurring characters and settings and an internal consistency with regards to characterization and depicted events.

Typically, stories that are produced by a particular licensor (such as [[IDW Publishing]]) or in a particular form of media (such as comic books) are ''in continuity'' with each other, meaning that they are meant to all take place in the same "world".

This is not always the case, however. For example, the IDW comic [[Evolutions|''Transformers Evolutions'']] consists of stories that are explicitly set in different universes than the other IDW comics. IDW's own ''Beast Wars'' comics are also separate from their "main" continuity. The various [[coloring book]]s published by [[Marvel Comics]] in the 1980s might all take place in the same universe as each other, but there are no direct ties between them, and they could easily each be [[Micro-continuity|"in their own little world]]."

Still, even in cases such as these, there are important similarities. Even though ''Evolutions''' first story, "[[Hearts of Steel]]", can't fit in the same story-world as ''[[Infiltration|Transformers: Infiltration]]'', they are alternate worlds in a relatively minor sense; the same Transformers characters are present in both, they just interact with Humanity at different points in time. Marvel's coloring books disagree on many points with the Marvel comic books, but they agree on many points as well. Thus, although the coloring books and the comics are not in continuity with each other, their similarities allow both to be categorized as being members of a [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] "[[continuity family]]".

{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}

==Multiverse==
More so than most science-fiction franchises, ''Transformers'' has been, from the very start, a collection of many varied continuities. Even before the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] premiered, there was the [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|Marvel Comics series]] and an array of Marvel-produced storybooks which cannot be reconciled with each other, resulting in myriad [[Micro-continuity|micro-continuities]]. There have been ''so many'' mutually exclusive Transformers continuities that a truly exhaustive list would be nearly impossible to complete. However, it is relatively easy to list the major continuity "families".

There is a subjective component to all of this, and each fan decides for themselves how "fine-grained" they want their own personal list of continuities to be. Ultimately, it could be argued that almost every story exists in its own exclusive continuity, even different stories that were clearly intended to be set in the same universe. For example, two episodes of the G1 cartoon series that make no explicit references to events in each other, but are both "descendants" of the three-part "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|More than Meets the Eye]]", could arguably exist in different universes. There may be no particular reason to assert that they don't share continuity, but there is also no clear internal evidence that the events of one affected the world of the other. They might conceivably be set in different branches of a timeline that started with MTMTE.

The most inclusive perspective is to consider all [[canon]]ical Transformers stories as existing within a multiverse which contains countless—perhaps infinite—alternate universes. Some of these universes are more closely related to each other than others, but they are all part of the same whole. This approach has been officially sanctioned in a number of stories:

*The [[Universe (2003 franchise)|2003 ''Transformers: Universe'' franchise]], which takes the existence of an overall ''Transformers'' multiverse as the core of its story.

* The [[Armada (Dreamwave comic)|''Armada'' comic]] storyline [[Worlds Collide]] made explicit multiple parallel universes able to sometimes interact. 75,890,008 realities are scanned in the course of the story, though [[Astroscope]] claims that there are an infinite number of alternate realities.

* Several of the [[Fun Publications]] [[Timelines]] tales, most notably the "[[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTech]]" stories, expand on the multiversal concept by treating the continuity families as "clusters" of [[Universal stream|universal streams]] that have been studied and catalogued for millennia.

:''Japanese name:'' '''Multi-Verse of Eternity'''<ref>Takara's "World of Transformers" site.</ref>

==Meta-continuity==
[[Image:TFUjailbreak.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Hey, there's Waldo!]]
The [[Universe (2003 franchise)|2003 ''Transformers: Universe'']] franchise (sometimes referred to as "TFU") attempted to create an overarching structure to the ''Transformers'' multiverse. It was helmed, fiction-wise, by [[3H Productions]], who then held the license to run the official ''Transformers'' convention, [[BotCon]]. Convention fiction starting in the year 1997 was directly incorporated into ''Universe'', although it wasn't until [[BotCon 2002]] that the term ''Transformers: Expanded Universe'' appeared on a BotCon toy box, and the name was shortened to just ''Transformers: Universe'' afterwards. The [[Universe (2003 toyline)|''Universe'' toyline]] eventually became the home of not just convention-exclusive toys, but also other redecos and store [[exclusive]]s that were sold in normal retail outlets. The [[bio]]s for the ''Universe'' characters were primarily the responsibility of 3H.

The ''Universe'' meta-continuity officially established the idea of a ''Transformers'' multiverse and pulled together many elements from other ''Transformers'' continuities, focusing heavily on variations of ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' and [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]. 3H's comic book series, ''Wreckers'' and ''Universe'', brought together characters from many parallel universes and are the primary sources of information about this meta-continuity. Character bios published in convention programs, fan club newsletters, and on the 3H and Hasbro websites also contribute.

Among other things, the ''Universe'' universe makes some reconciliation between conflicting origins for [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the Transformers race that were presented in the original comics, cartoon, and [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|''Beast Machines'' cartoon]]. It also incorporates the otherwise ignored sub-toylines ''[[Mutant (BW)|Beast Wars Mutants]]'' and ''[[Dinobots (toyline)|Dinobots]]'' into its fiction, and is the earliest example of a story that asserts (or implies) that there is only one [[Unicron]] who travels from one universe to another, rather than an infinite array of Unicrons in different universes.

[[Fun Publications]], the company that followed 3H in running the official convention and fan club, has since continued this approach. The Fan Club comic storyline "[[Balancing Act (issue)|Balancing Act]]" takes place primarily during the ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' cartoon, but features a multiversal battle fought by characters culled from other continuities. The setting changes after an arc ends as characters migrate from continuity to continuity. The "science" of the multiverse was further expanded upon in the stories set within the [[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTech]] "hub" universe.

==Major continuity families==
At this time, there are five primary [[Continuity family|continuity families]] in the ''Transformers'' multiverse. These are:

*'''[[Generation 1 (continuity family)|Generation 1 / Beast Era]]''' (the "Primax Cluster" according to the [[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTech]])
*'''[[Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'''
*the '''[[Unicron Trilogy]]''' ("Aurex Cluster")
*the '''[[live-action film series]]''' ("Tyran Cluster")
*'''[[Transformers Animated]]''' ("Malgus Cluster")

Additional continuity families include:

*The "mirror universe" [[Shattered Glass]]
*A much less prominent family centered on the Playskool [[Go-Bots (toyline)|Go-Bots toyline]]

Every (or nearly every) ''Transformers'' story can be easily fit into one of these families, even if its precise continuity can't be pinned down.

For further information about these continuity families and families in general, please see '''[[Continuity family]]'''.

==Prominent ''Generation 1'' continuities==
Within Generation 1, there are an almost uncountable number of established alternate universes. Some of these continuities are extremely obscure, such as the timeline which houses [[Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth|the second Commodore 64 video game]]. On the other hand, the G1 cartoon is so widely known that even many members of the general public (i.e., not fans) would be familiar with it, and quite possibly be unaware that there even ''are'' other Transformers stories besides it and the 2007 live-action film.

Following is a ''very'' incomplete list showing only the most prominent G1 continuities and their relationships to each other. For the purposes of this list, only G1-proper will be considered, and not the extended-G1 that includes G2, MW, and the ''Beast'' series. Additionally, in keeping with Transformers Wiki's policy, the live-action film is not included, as it is treated as an independent continuity family rather than a part of G1.

*[[Generation 1 (cartoon)|Cartoons (American)]] - Three complete seasons of varying length, ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', and a 3-episode "fourth season". Probably the best known of all continuities.

*Cartoons (Japanese) - Includes the first three seasons of the American cartoons as well as three additional TV series, two OVAs and a [[manga]] series.

*[[Marvel Comics continuity|Marvel US comics]] - Includes ''[[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|Transformers]]'', ''[[Headmasters (comic)|Transformers: Headmasters]]'', and the character profile series ''[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]]''. The comic book adaptation of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' is out of continuity with the other Marvel comics.

*Marvel UK comics - Includes both the American comics and UK-originated material, amounting to a similar total volume, that was published exclusively in the UK until being reprinted internationally in the 2000s.

*[[Dreamwave continuity|Dreamwave G1 comics]] - A new continuity with much of the flavor of the original cartoon series, but a very different history. Includes the three "G1" volumes as well as three volumes of ''The War Within'' and a ''Micromasters'' miniseries.

*[[IDW continuity|IDW G1 comics]] - Yet another new continuity, based on earlier versions of G1 featuring classic characters but with some large revisions of basic story premise and character designs. Begins with ''Transformers: Infiltration'', published in 2005, and continues through most (though not all) of IDW's Transformer miniseries.

==Unified Japanese continuities==
[[Image:Japaneseflowchart.jpg|right|450px|thumb|So that's where Machine Wars goes.]]
In Japan, every Transformers cartoon until the release of ''[[Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Car Robots]]'' (the original, Japanese title for ''Robots in Disguise'') can be somewhat easily fit into a single unified continuity, much like the unified American G1/Beast continuity. This includes the American G1 cartoon (minus Season 4, which Japan did not air) and Beast series as well as ''[[The Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'', ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'', ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'', ''[[Enter the New Supreme Commander, Dai Atlas!|Zone]]'', ''[[Beast Wars II (cartoon)|Beast Wars II]]'', and ''[[Beast Wars Neo (cartoon)|Beast Wars Neo]]''. In the 21st century, they also developed a fondness for new fiction that was retroactively inserted into available gaps in the G1 timeline, like [[Binaltech]], ''[[Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]'' and ''[[Robot Masters]]''. Despite this additional story material, all of these stories fit together (save for Binaltech, which was spun off into its own alternate timeline as its story progressed).

In Japan, then, ''Car Robots'' was the first full reboot. Following CR, ''[[Armada (franchise)|Micron Legend]]'' and ''[[Energon (franchise)|Superlink]]'' were connected into a third major Japanese continuity, and then, as noted above, ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Galaxy Force]]'' started a fourth.

In 2007, [[TakaraTomy]] performed some significant retcons to their Generation 1 timeline, most visible in a [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/table.html timeline] posted on their website (accompanied by a flowchart, at right), and ''much'' more extensively in [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)|another one]] printed in the ''Kiss Players'' compilation book. The most significant aspect of this retcon was to insert ''Car Robots'' into the Generation 1 timeline, establishing that its characters came from the future and exploiting an unfinished manga from ''[[Super Robot Magazine]]'' to explain why the Generation 1 cast was not present during the events of the series (this does not explain the humans' being unfamiliar with the Transformers, however). The website timeline makes one further, rather ''bizarre'' claim that is ''not'' reflected in either the accompanying flowchart ''or'' the Kiss Players timeline, which is that the 2007 live-action movie '''also''' takes place in the Japanese Generation 1 continuity in 2007. This seems... highly unlikely.

In addition to this serious working-over of the Generation 1 universe, the website timeline also took a moment to retcon ''Galaxy Force'' back into the same timeline as ''Micron Legend'' and ''Superlink'' (as it had always been presented in the West). American fans who had spent a year whining about how Hasbro had totally ruined the show by ignoring the super-cool and awesome Japanese intent were promptly pointed and laughed at.

In addition to the above, nearly every Japanese TF franchise has had ancillary manga published in magazines such as ''Comics Bon-Bon''. The relationship between the manga and cartoons varied. For example, the manga associated with the first two years of ''Transformers'' (pre-movie) can easily fit into the cartoon continuity, but would not contribute much of substance to the timeline. Some of the later G1 manga, however, such as those associated with ''[[Super-God Masterforce (franchise)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' and ''[[Victory (franchise)|Victory]]'', contradict the cartoons bearing the same names.

==Continuity soup==
[[Image:Sparkholderprimevaldawn.jpg|right|225px|thumb|Optimus Prime's spark isn't naked. It has decency.]]
With the labyrinth of branching and criss-crossing timelines, it can be difficult at times to say exactly what makes up the history of any given ''Transformers'' universe. Over and over through the history of the ''Transformers'' brand, stories have been written which both extend pre-existing stories and also "fill in" pre-existing stories, adding details and retcons big and small. These extensions may be written years or even decades after the stories from which they are descended. There may be multiple extensions which conflict with each other, written at different times by different people for different licensees, targeting different markets. ''Branching'' timelines, on their own, are not that difficult to keep straight, but the relationship between various ''Transformers'' stories is much more complex than that because of the way new stories will pick and choose elements from old stories. There are no real answers to the questions that arise from this practice. It becomes a very messy question of subjective tastes and opinions, leading to the idea of a [[personal canon]].

Consider the [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' television series]]: It borrows elements from the American G1 cartoon and G1 comics. The past history of the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon's timeline is a mishmash, something that probably resembles the G1 cartoon more than anything else, but which differs from the cartoon in unknown ways and may include more (or less) of what we see in the Marvel Comics. BW is set in '''a''' G1 universe for which we have never seen—and probably will never see—more than tiny glimpses of the "G1 part". The history of that universe ''is not known'', even though we presumably know its broad outline.

So, what significance does information from ''Beast Wars'', such as the idea of the [[spark]], hold for those older stories? Since being introduced in "[[The Spark]]", sparks have become one of the most important and unifying concepts in all ''Transformers'' fiction, yet fiction which predates ''Beast Wars'', of course, never mentions them. G1-era fiction which was written post-''Beast Wars'' almost always includes them. Retconning sparks into most vintage G1 fiction is not all that difficult, but should it be done? Obviously, the G1-esque universe in which the Beast series are set has sparks, but what about the ''actual'' G1 cartoon and comic universes? Do they have sparks? Does the G1 cartoon's future (and past) look like ''Beast Wars'' or like something else?

What if a new story instead claimed that its past was ''exactly'' like an old story rather than merely similar to it? The main storyline of the ''Universe'' and ''Wreckers'' comics is ostensibly set in the BW/BM cartoon continuity, happening alongside and immediately afterwards. Are revelations from ''Universe'' "true" in ''Beast Machines'', or is ''Universe'' actually set in a timeline which is identical to the BM timeline aside from those extra events occurring? Does your answer change when [[IDW Publishing]] releases a [[The Gathering|''Beast Wars'' comic]] which ''also'' claims to occur alongside the BW cartoon, but which cannot be reconciled with ''Universe''?

What do you do with something like the [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|''Classics'' comics]] published in the official fan club newsletter? Those stories are set in the future of the US G1 comic, except...that they ignore the UK G1 comic ''and'' the US G2 comic. According to G2, there is an [[Cybertronian Empire|offshoot race of Decepticons]] running around in space who have been away from Cybertron for millions of years. Is that still true in ''other'' offshoots of the G1 comic? Is [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] out there in ''Classics''-comics space somewhere, and simply not visiting, or does he not exist at all? He ''could'' exist...but there is no way to know.

The only objective way to deal with all of this would be to take a very strict viewpoint on every story and never assume that anything is "true" unless it is explicitly stated in that story. Taken to an extreme, though, this stance can make it impossible to declare ''any'' two stories to share continuity, even two sequential episodes of a given TV series. For all we know, the new episode is set in a universe closely parallel to that of the previous episode but a little different. We wouldn't want to ''assume'' that a scene which wasn't shown in the recap actually occurred, after all. Especially if there's a continuity glitch of some sort, like the dialog in a recap being slightly different than the dialog from the earlier episode. So an absolutist "only what they showed" viewpoint can't really work. There has to be ''some'' concession; even "I'm going to treat all the episodes of this series as if they are one big story" is a subjective decision, one which another fan may find too restrictive or too liberal (especially if two of those episodes directly contradict each other!).

==We...are family?==
Lastly, all of this means that it is difficult to tease out questions of which continuities are subsets of others, how closely related two different continuities are, etc. A significant example of this is the categorization of the various [[IDW Publishing]] and [[Movie (franchise)|Movie]] continuities. Both are clearly beholden to ''Generation 1'' in many ways, but are generally thought to be notably "further out" from the G1 "core" than most other G1 continuities. Should they be considered new families or not? How do you quantify this? Do differences in physical form such as the movie's drastically different aesthetic make a difference? If so, should it also make a difference that most IDW characters have had their alt-modes altered slightly? What ratio of character rehashes to original characters is required to count as part of the old family instead of the start of a new one? What if, instead of a straight-up rehash, it's more of an amalgamation of a few old characters, as in the case of [[Frenzy (Movie)|''Movie'' Frenzy]]?

Again, the reader is referred to the article on continuity families, in particular the section [[Continuity family|"quibbles"]], for a brief explanation of the categorizations that have been adopted on this wiki.

==Fiction==
Many Transformers continuities are self-contained and do not self-reference themselves as being in part of a greater multiverse. It is through fiction in other (otherwise unrelated) continuities that we learn they are part of the multiverse. When alternate universes are acknowledged, [[black hole]]s are one way Transformers travel between them.

===Generation 1===
====Cartoon continuity====
A [[Quintesson]] ship with a captured [[Autobot]], [[Decepticon]], [[human]], and [[Junkion]] aboard passed through a black hole to a [[negative universe]] where the color spectrum was reversed. They returned by traveling back through the hole, which was now "white." {{storylink|The Killing Jar}}

The negative universe is the only alternate universe acknowledged within the cartoon itself. {{fact|Confirmation needed}}

====Marvel Comics continuity====
Marvel Comics featured various alternate "Marvel Comics continuity" timelines within its storylines, but otherwise did not recognize itself as being part of the greater Transformers multiverse.

[[Galvatron II]] was transported from an alternate future by [[Unicron]] in order to assist him with his conquest of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. {{storylink|Eye of the Storm!}}

Marvel UK comics featured stories in the "Marvel UK future timelines" which take place after events similar to [[The Transformers: The Movie]] happen. This timeline was effectively replaced with the actual events of the comic.

{{stub}}

===Robots in Disguise===
The Generation 1 character [[Axer]] traveled through a black hole into the Robots in Disguise universe.<ref>Axer's Robots in Disguise on package bio.</ref>

==Trivia==

* Many other fictional "universe" are explicitly Multiverses, among these is the Marvel Universe, which in the manner of a ven diagram also overlaps to include a portion of the Transformers Multiverse (Earth-84217 for instance).

* Due to crossovers between properties it has been argued by some fans that all (or nearly all) Hasbro toy properties (including all fiction published under the Transformers, G.I. Joe, Inhumanoids, Jem and the Holograms, COPS, G.I. Joe Extreme, Battle Beasts, Action Man, M.A.S.K. and Challenge of the GoBots) may be part of the same extended multiverse. (Saddly Visionaries, Air Raiders, and Sky Commanders have yet to join the fun.)

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Stories]]
[[Category:Continuities]]

Brunt (ROTF)

2009-06-12T18:48:51Z

71.235.138.121: It's a start/stub, needs work

{{factions|decepticon}}

:''Brunt is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

{{bigthumb|Brunt autobotstronghold.png|140px| Imagine how many souls Trypticon has.}}
It's not clear if '''Brunt''' is a single Decepticon robot, a type of drone, or a [[gestalt]] being (he's known to cary 10 [[spark]]s within his frame!) What is known is that these guys are damned hard to kill (well, he ''does'' have 10 souls) and bad to have around. Brunt's mere presence on the battlefield forces Autobot defenders to prioritise him above all other foes.

== Fiction ==
===LG Stronghold online game===
The Autobots have to keep the Decepticons from reaching their "LG Stronghold." The Decepticons keep coming and coming in wave after wave. They're relentless! Fortunately, by taking the sparks of their fallen foes, the macabre Autobots can purchase LG technology to upgrade their offensive capabilities. They can also use the souls of the dead to buy duplicate versions of themselves to keep the Decepticon hordes occupied. It's kind of horrifying when you think too hard about it. Brunt units show up after this terrible apocalypse has been going on for a while and generally cause some major trouble.

==Trivia==
*Brunt's stats in the game are:
'''Brunt'''
:''Movement'' ?
:''Sparks'' 10
:''Points'' 1000
:''Debut'' Wave 30

[[Category:Stub]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]

Talk:Autobot Stronghold

2009-06-12T11:08:32Z

71.235.138.121: New page: So... do ROTF Galvatron and Brunt deserve their own pages now? They are official characters,I guess. Thoughts?--~~~~

So... do ROTF Galvatron and Brunt deserve their own pages now? They are official characters,I guess. Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Ransack (ROTF)

2009-06-06T19:59:06Z

71.235.138.121: /* Notes */

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Ransack}}
:''Ransack is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] portion of the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:ROTFtoy-RansackScout.jpg|right|thumb|300px|So Hasbro said to themselves, "We can make just about anything for the movie line and people'll buy it? Well, let's go for friggin' broke."]]

Early in the development of flight technology on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], countless ages ago, '''Ransack''' was a pioneer. One of the first flying aces, his ruthlessness was feared by all. These days, though, he's old and outdated.

==Toys==
===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Scout Class Toys====
*'''Ransack''' (Scout Class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RD-09'''
: Ransack is part of the second wave of ''Revenge of the Fallen'' Scout Class figures. He transforms into a German [[:wikipedia:Albatros D.III|Albatros D.III]] biplane. This means he's really awesome. He has a non-firing weapons on each arm and totally metal details around the very large Decepticon sigils on his wings. He can also assume a transitional "battle mode", which deploys his wings and prop in robot mode. The ball joints on his shoulders are especially loose, and the pegs that hold his hands in place in vehicle mode are much stronger. As such, his arms are going to pop off about 90% of the time while converting the figure.

==Notes==
* Ransack's ''[[Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'' [[Ransack (G2)|counterpart]] also has a propeller-driven airplane [[alternate mode]], though it's a single-wing fighter. The name Ransack has thus been used for both the only WWI era and WWII era Tranformer planes.

[[Category: Decepticons]]
[[Category: Elderly Transformers]]
[[Category: Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category: Toy-only characters]]

Nexus Prime

2009-05-31T11:47:37Z

71.235.138.121: /* Notes */

[[Image:Clubcombinercarving.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Say, haven't I seen you somewhere before?]]

One of the [[thirteen original Transformers]], '''Nexus Maximus''' was created by [[Primus]] shortly after he assumed his planet form for the first time to guard [[Rarified Energon]]. At an unknown point in time, this Transformer was broken into five other robots: [[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]], [[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]], [[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]], [[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]], and [[Heatwave]].

==Fiction==
===''Classics''===
The [[Caretaker]] told its components that Nexus Maximus was "designated a [[Prime (rank)|Prime]]", like the other original thirteen, {{storylink|Crossing Over: Part 6}} but apparently Nexus Maximus isn't so needy as to actually put "Prime" in his name.

==Toys==
===Cybertron, Classics, and Timelines===
[[Image:Timelinestoy-NexusMaximus.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Remember to use the instructions! You don't want to put something in the wrong hole.]]
*'''Nexus Maximus''' (2009)
:Nexus Maximus is composed of his five team members, with Heatwave forming his central body component. His limbs' [[energon weapon]]s form his hands and feet. Similarly to [[Generation 1]]'s [[Scramble City]] combiner teams, Nexus Maximus (as well as Superion Maximus, Bruticus Maximus and Constructicon Maximus) features universal connection points for the limbs, allowing many different combinations and even swapping of limbs from different teams. His combined form's head was [[retool]]ed to give him a unique one, which is an amalgamation of visual elements of its components.

:Nexus Maximus is the combined form of the first five [[Transformers Collectors' Club]] freebie toys: Skyfall, Landquake, Breakaway, Topspin, and Heatwave.
{{--}}

==Notes==
* Fun Publication originally submitted the possible names Prime Nexus and Maximus Prime to Hasbro for the character (reflecting the fact that the character is a Prime in-fiction), Hasbro rejected these, apparently because they are feeling protective towards the use of the name Prime (despite previously having approved the fiction that already named him a Prime, written by their own [[Forest Lee]]). Hasbro suggested merging the non-Prime segments of the two names instead... ooops.
* Apparently neither [[Hasbro]] nor [[Fun Publications]] did their research when naming Nexus Maximus, because there is another product which shares that name and is, as of [[May 24]], [[2009]], the top Google result. While it is definitely a "toy", it is most assuredly not intended for ages 5 and up. It's also probably not safe for work, so [http://www.vixencreations.com/store/maximus.html click here] at your own risk.
* The debate is still on whether Nexus Maximus constitutes a choking hazard.
* It's hard to say what toyline Nexus Maximus is from, as his components are from multiple franchises. How often does that happen?

[[category:Classics characters]]
[[Category:Combined forms]]
[[Category:Cybertron characters]]
[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Shattered Glass characters]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers|Nexus Maximus 00]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]
[[Category:TransTech characters]]

Thirteen

2009-05-30T18:05:58Z

71.235.138.121: botcon update

[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers and all "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]". Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron.
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The Beast Wars Reborn text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is a also silhouette slightly resembling him in the image from the [[World of Transformers]] web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Maximus]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]

'''Possible members are:'''
*The Liege Maximo; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''Legends'' anthology confirms the rumor and the nature of the bar, but its place within broader [[continuity]] is questionable.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Maximus was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
There is some evidence to suggest that the original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with each character spanning the whole multiverse. For example, though The Fallen originated from the Dreamwave Generation 1 continuity, there also seems to be one of him in whatever universe Vector Prime, a [[Unicron Trilogy]] character, originated. Vector Prime's stewardship of Primus's children throughout multiple timelines and universes certainly lends credence to it as well, though the concept has never been specifically addressed.

==Live-action movie franchise==
{{note|This origin information was given by the Fallen and clashes with the above multiversal-true-to-all-continuities origin.}}
[[Image:First 10 Transformers Defiance4.jpg|right|thumb|300px|10 of the first Transformers]]
[[Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations|A race of beings]] that included [[the Fallen]] were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers... but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. An eternity passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

==Trivia==
*IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing’s set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of Botcon 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedual, presumably till further notice.

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Talk:Transformers: The Thirteen

2009-05-30T17:59:21Z

71.235.138.121: New page: So given it is "off the schedual" as of Botcon 09 do we move this to "Things that don't exist" or just totally delete it. --~~~~

So given it is "off the schedual" as of Botcon 09 do we move this to "Things that don't exist" or just totally delete it. --[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 13:59, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Macerator (ROTF)

2009-04-30T18:19:31Z

71.235.138.121: A start

{{factions|decepticon}}
:''Macerator is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[Continuity family|continuity family]].''

'''Macerator''' is new to Earth. His robot form is squat and powerful, with one arm ending in circular blades instead of fingers. He finds it rather hard to credit Starscream's assertion that humans are an intelligent species, let alone that they could manage to create weapons that pose a threat to a Decepticon. Practical and gruff, he berates [[Dropkick]] for being an aesthete, praising his own choice of industrial garbage shredder truck alternate mode as being more functional and useful. Dropkick, in return, dismisses Macerator as "Primitive." Starscream considers them both hotheads.

==Fiction==

===The Veiled Threat===

{{Spoiler|The Veiled Threat}}
Macerator is one of the new troops who came to Earth to aid Starscream following Megatron's death. He worked with Starscream's forces in Zambia, participating in their intended Autobot trap atop Victoria Falls. He almost succeeded in toppling Optimus Prime to his death. Though saved from his own deadly plunge by Starscream he soon after met his maker when he again battled with Optimus Prime atop the Kariba Dam. A sword stroke to his spark sent Macerator's lifeless body plunging to the waters below.
{{-}}

{{stub}}
[[Category: Decepticons]]
[[Category: Movie characters]]

Crosscut (G1)

2009-03-17T11:27:56Z

71.235.138.121:

{{Bookworm}}

{{disambig2|the Autobot ambassador|the Decepticon soldier|Crosscut (Decepticon)}}
{{picsneeded|Fiction, toy}}

:''Crosscut is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Crosscut-Auto-Card.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Want some smallpox blankets?]]

The Autobot ambassador to many worlds, '''Crosscut''' and his partner [[Road Rage]] were sent to Earth on secret orders to work with the human governments on establishing [[Autobot City]] on Earth. He is fluent in over 230 Earth languages and 6300 alien languages. Though he carries a lot of weaponry, it is all defensive in nature, meant to incapactiate rather than kill. In dire emergencies, he can transfer all his data and memories to his scooter-drone [[Clutch_(G1)|Clutch]] so his knowledge won't be lost even if he falls to the Decepticons.

==Fiction==
===''Universe: The Wreckers'' comics===
Crosscut is one of the crewmembers of ''[[Sojourner's Passage]]'', one of several starships sent out by [[Rodimus Prime (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] to explore the universe and establish recon points. He was presumably killed when the ship crashed onto [[Archa Nine]].

{{-}}
==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Crosscut''' (Autobot, 2002)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''95'''
**''Accessories'': "Clutch" drone, "Electromagnetic pulse emitter" rifle, "twin vertigo gun" double-blaster, "stun grenade" launcher, 3 "stun grenades"

: Crosscut is a [[retool]] of [[Skids (G1)|Skids]], transforming into a Honda City R hatchback with a different head and hood. He also comes with a "scooter" accessory named "Clutch" that fits in his hatchback. As he was a Japanese release, his spring-loaded missile launcher is fully functional. Crosscut was an [[exclusive]] to [[E-Hobby|e-Hobby]], sold only in a set with [[Road Rage]].

==Trivia==
[[Image:G1Skids-instructions.jpg|right|thumb|This is not my beautiful skull!]]

* Crosscut and Road Rage are notable for being the first "new" additions to the Generation 1-era cast of characters after the original line ended since the short-lived ''[[Machine Wars]]'' series. This also started the general trend toward e-Hobby releases being new characters rather than old characters in new colors.

* Crosscut's "new" head and coloration are based on one of the original pre-''Transformers'' ''[[Diaclone]]'' versions of the "Honda City R" mold. The original version was only available in a "double set" with a blue version of the "4WD Hi-Lux Wrecker" (pre-[[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]]) that was ''also'' only available in that set.

* There is evidence that this version of the mold was the one originally intended to be released in the original ''Transformers'' line rather than the "Honda City Turbo" model that would become Skids. The original Skids' instructions have the Crosscut mold's line-art, and in the [[Marvel]] UK comic, artist [[Andrew Wildman]] drew Skids with Crosscut's head in several panels. It's possible the Turbo model was chosen because its face was more human-looking (to go along with the generally more humanized faces the characters were given in the cartoon), but this is merely speculation.

{{-}}
==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/2002/Cybertron/CrossCut/crosscut.htm Crosscut at TFU.info]

[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: e-Hobby]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category: Japanese-original characters]]
[[Category: Universe characters]]
[[Category: Scientists]]<div id="wikia-credits"> From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</div>

Crosscut (G1)

2009-03-17T11:27:04Z

71.235.138.121:

[[Bookworm]]

{{disambig2|the Autobot ambassador|the Decepticon soldier|Crosscut (Decepticon)}}
{{picsneeded|Fiction, toy}}

:''Crosscut is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Crosscut-Auto-Card.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Want some smallpox blankets?]]

The Autobot ambassador to many worlds, '''Crosscut''' and his partner [[Road Rage]] were sent to Earth on secret orders to work with the human governments on establishing [[Autobot City]] on Earth. He is fluent in over 230 Earth languages and 6300 alien languages. Though he carries a lot of weaponry, it is all defensive in nature, meant to incapactiate rather than kill. In dire emergencies, he can transfer all his data and memories to his scooter-drone [[Clutch_(G1)|Clutch]] so his knowledge won't be lost even if he falls to the Decepticons.

==Fiction==
===''Universe: The Wreckers'' comics===
Crosscut is one of the crewmembers of ''[[Sojourner's Passage]]'', one of several starships sent out by [[Rodimus Prime (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] to explore the universe and establish recon points. He was presumably killed when the ship crashed onto [[Archa Nine]].

{{-}}
==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Crosscut''' (Autobot, 2002)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''95'''
**''Accessories'': "Clutch" drone, "Electromagnetic pulse emitter" rifle, "twin vertigo gun" double-blaster, "stun grenade" launcher, 3 "stun grenades"

: Crosscut is a [[retool]] of [[Skids (G1)|Skids]], transforming into a Honda City R hatchback with a different head and hood. He also comes with a "scooter" accessory named "Clutch" that fits in his hatchback. As he was a Japanese release, his spring-loaded missile launcher is fully functional. Crosscut was an [[exclusive]] to [[E-Hobby|e-Hobby]], sold only in a set with [[Road Rage]].

==Trivia==
[[Image:G1Skids-instructions.jpg|right|thumb|This is not my beautiful skull!]]

* Crosscut and Road Rage are notable for being the first "new" additions to the Generation 1-era cast of characters after the original line ended since the short-lived ''[[Machine Wars]]'' series. This also started the general trend toward e-Hobby releases being new characters rather than old characters in new colors.

* Crosscut's "new" head and coloration are based on one of the original pre-''Transformers'' ''[[Diaclone]]'' versions of the "Honda City R" mold. The original version was only available in a "double set" with a blue version of the "4WD Hi-Lux Wrecker" (pre-[[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]]) that was ''also'' only available in that set.

* There is evidence that this version of the mold was the one originally intended to be released in the original ''Transformers'' line rather than the "Honda City Turbo" model that would become Skids. The original Skids' instructions have the Crosscut mold's line-art, and in the [[Marvel]] UK comic, artist [[Andrew Wildman]] drew Skids with Crosscut's head in several panels. It's possible the Turbo model was chosen because its face was more human-looking (to go along with the generally more humanized faces the characters were given in the cartoon), but this is merely speculation.

{{-}}
==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/2002/Cybertron/CrossCut/crosscut.htm Crosscut at TFU.info]

[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: e-Hobby]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category: Japanese-original characters]]
[[Category: Universe characters]]
[[Category: Scientists]]<div id="wikia-credits"> From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</div>

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central

2009-03-16T18:59:39Z

71.235.138.121: /* Anything the rank and file could do? */ new section

==Hey hey, what can I do==
I think at this point we must begin formulating plans based on the assumption that the site is a total loss. This means damage control first, then restoration, then prevention.

Assuming no good news comes through, it seems to me we need to take the following steps. Bein' that I'm not a tech guy, there may be more options than what I'm seeing, but here's what I figure we gotta do:

#take down the bulk of the site's pages so Google's cache will not overwrite them
#figure out a system to make Derik and Abates' caches of Google-archived pages accessible to editors as they come in (Derik mentioned it'll take over a week to get a complete set off Google.)
#if possible, automate the stripping of HTML tags and other non-Wiki goop from those pages before anyone tries to edit them, including Wikia links.
#find a way to divvy up a restoration workload among our 50 or so regular editors.
#find a new server. We would be idiots to remain here.

I still hope most of this will be unnecessary, but at this point, I'm losing faith. -- '''repowers''' [[Special:Contributions/99.140.167.2|99.140.167.2]] 12:08, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
: Spoke with Bookworm several times this morning. He still has a few more computers to search for backups, but, well, at this point I'm going to assume the worst. He is going to try to at least get our user database working. He wasn't aware that was a problem until I let him know. I think Scout is trying to get all the pages downloaded from Google Caching. I've grabbed a few of my own, but she's got, like, thousands of pages so far.
: As for getting a new server... anybody got any ideas? Hell if I know. Frankly, don't listen to me anyway on that. --Walky

::Take everything down immediately. The longer the site stays up as-is, the greater the risk of contaminating Google's March 9th cache and the more linkbacks we send to Wikia. Then we either beg Google for a mass infodump, or.... 50 editors grab 160 pages each. EDIT: or Scout gets them! Thanks, Scout; good to see at least the words "silver lining" in print, even if I don't see the actual thing itself yet.... '''Thylacine 2000'''--[[Special:Contributions/74.73.131.210|74.73.131.210]] 12:17, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:::If we take everything down, what are we going to edit back together? WHEN are we going to edit everything back together? Taking it down just delays our ability to fix it. --Walky
::::If we've got our copy of the cache, then site shutdown isn't nearly as important. The main concern is that we'd lose the Google cache. Looking like retards... well, we'll just have to take our lumps there. (I guess we could set permissions for content pages to only logged-in users? Dunno.) -- '''repowers''' [[Special:Contributions/99.140.167.2|99.140.167.2]] 12:30, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

==I am a dumb, stupid man==
Just to get that out of the way. Should have told BK to back off on the database upgrade as soon as I saw his original email, and maybe we shouldn't have been here on this server to begin with. It was my call, after all. I'll do my best to make it up to you. Especially TOOG and McFeely, who did so many pages. When I remembered Google caches stuff at like 7 in the morning and started downloading pages whole-hog, theirs was the work I went after first. BEFORE HOT SHOT. That is how bad I feel. Nobody should have to watch through Energon twice. Or, uh, once. This is a terrible, horrible thing, brought on partially by my own incompetence and unassertiveness. Other people shouldn't have to learn my needed life lessons with me. --Walky

==What we've actually lost==
Okay, I've been trying to assess and give a realistic account of the information we appear to be missing. It's hampered by the lack of a search option, meaing I've been having to hit the random button until I've gotten to a page I can link to, and I may be missing something things, but I believe that we have lost the following sections:
*The work McFeely did on [[Energon (cartoon)|Energon]].
*[[Revelation]]
*[[All Hail Megatron]]
*[[The Reign of Starscream]]
*[[Maximum Dinobots]]
*[[Alliance]]
*[[Defiance]]
*[[Universe (2008)]]
*[[Revenge of the Fallen]] updates.
*Abates screen captures on [[Beast Wars]], [[Beast Machines]], and [[Generation 1]].
*Updated screen captures for [[Transformers Animated]] season 1 and 2.
*Last but not least, all we know of [[Transformers Animated]] season 3.

If I missed anything that stands out, please let me know. If all I've done is seriously depress you, then...I don't really know how to respond to that. -- SFH 13:49, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

:I'm not sure how worthwhile this is. I could add that we've lost almost everything related to the S.T.A.R.S. continuity (including the meta-page with that name), but seriously, we could keep listing pages forever. Not to mention that probably a huge majority of the existing pages have lost a lot of updates. I don't think there's anything we rank-and-file editors can do until either Walky appears brandishing a "routine backup" or Scout et al. get the Google cache sorted out and implemented. At THAT point, maybe taking stock would be a good idea, but until then, let's just go outside and get some fresh air. Toss a Frisbee around. Call up an old friend. - '''Jackpot''' [[Special:Contributions/216.231.37.133|216.231.37.133]] 14:01, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, we need a systemic, all-encompassing, computer-generated list of every page, since pretty much every page has probably been edited since the split. (though for the record, my list includes 15-20 Energon eps and 20-30 rewritten subgroup pages.) Said list needs a checklist option or something. I dunno. I had this written more coherently before the save page thing crashed. Whee, are we having fun yet? -- '''repowers''' [[Special:Contributions/99.140.167.2|99.140.167.2]] 14:28, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:I still have all those screen captures, so I can reupload them if necessary. Of course, the images are actually still on the server, but the out-of-date database doesn't know they're there. I grabbed a complete set of Beast Machines episode articles and a near-complete set of RID episode articles from various caches last night. Unfortunately the software I wrote for doing the same only grabbed 53 articles before it was throttled. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:47, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

== Anything the rank and file could do? ==

OK, so there's obviously alot of scrambling going on from all who can to recover all the massive chunks of what's been lost, my question: is it at all helpful for the rank and file occasional contributor to be doing any editting at this point? I mean, I'm sure there are a bunch of us who would be willing to edit and add here and there to fix up what small bits and pages we can. Or would such small additions and peicemeal fixes just get in the way of the eventual large scale repairs? --[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 14:59, 16 March 2009 (EDT)