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Original

2010-10-18T23:17:25Z

72.128.51.130: /* Errors */

{{comicstory
|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: Sector 7]]'' issue 1
|prev=Nefarious issue 6
|next=Sector 7 issue 2
|image=Sector7issue1 coverA.jpg
|caption=
|title=
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[September 29]], [[2010]]
|coverdate=September 2010
|writer=[[John Barber]]
|art=[[Joe Suitor]]
|inks=
|colors=
|letters=[[Chris Mowry]]
|editor=[[Andy Schmidt]]
|cover=[[Brian Rood]] [[Joe Suitor]]
|continuity=[[Live-action film series]]
|pagecount=32
|price=$3.99
}}
'''1898: by order of the President, an investigation is undertaken of a blind mental patient's claims of a thirty-six feet tall steel man...'''

==Synopsis==

{{issuestub}}

==Featured Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c2=
*[[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] (10)
*[[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]] (11)
|c3=
*[[Joseph Wells]] (1)
*[[Walter Simmons I]] (2)
*[[Billy North]] (4)
*[[Archibald Witwicky]] (5)
*[[Reginald Danco]] (6)
*[[Jack Arden]] (7)
*[[Phillp Bowen]] (8)
*[[Theodore Grant]] (9)
|c4=*[[Creatures]] (3)
}}

==Quotes==

"Maintaining a ''scientific demeanor'' might have proved the better part of ''valor'', Joseph." 
"''They'' made the first move." 
"They ''growled'' at you." 
"That's a ''first move'', Walter."
:-'''Walter Simmons''' and '''Joseph Wells'''

"I am but a humble servant of progress. Or at least that's what I tell myself when I lie awake at night."
:-'''Simmons'''

"Who ''piloted'' this--or, ''good god'', man! What if this ''is'' the creature itself?"
:-'''Simmons''' is stunned by Megatron

"We killed a ''space-robot!'' Do you ''know'' what a metallurgist ''usually'' does? Lemme tell ya, it ain't as ''fulfilling'' as you musta heard!"
:-'''Arden''' is having fun

==Errors==

*While the art keeps our heroes Joseph and Walter consistent (Joseph has dark hair and mutton chops, silver-haired Walter has a mustache), the script does not do them such favors. On page four, North refers to them as "Joseph Simmons" and "Walter Wells", and on the following page, Joseph mispronounces "Witwicky" as "Wickety", just as [[Seymour Simmons]] did in [[Transformers (2007)|the first movie]], a joke to seemingly prove the two characters' relation. From page eight onward, however, the pair's surnames are switched, and the whole story becomes framed by excerpts from the journal of "Walter Simmons", indicating that ''he'' is actually supposed to be the Simmons in this story.
*Despite the correct design of Megatron being used on the cover, the inside pages depict Megatron as he appeared in [[Revenge of the Fallen]].
*John Barber's continuity notes at the end of the issue confirm that Walter is Simmons, but give Wells's name as "Theodore"!

==Items of note==

*The issue has "FIELD NOTES From Agent John Barber": continuity notes and behind-the-scenes info about how the issue was created. Barber says this was editor Andy Schmidt's idea.
*Joseph, Walter and Danco all previously appeared, unnamed, in the [[Movie Prequel issue 2|second issue]] of the [[Movie Prequel|Movie Prequel]] comic. A building containing mysterious objects that appeared to be Sector Seven's headquarters appeared in that comic, at a time before the movie itself claimed the organization was supposed to have been founded, but is here [[retcon]]ned away as being Walter and Joseph's trophy collection from the various strange adventures and treasure-hunts they've been on (in his notes, Barber says these guys were presented as adventurers ''in'' the Prequel, which is a bit of a fudge). Barber also says that since the Prequel says [[Seymour Simmons]]' great-grandfather was part of the original Seven, he had to be one of those guys.
**The yet-to-be-named Danco appears in Witwicky's crew and a guy quite like him is seen with Sector Seven's crew later in the Prequel; Barber decided to make them both the same character.
*The human cast are meant to represent "disparate parts" of the era, according to Barber: Simmons and Wells are "Jules Verne/HG Wells gentlemen scientist-adventurers", North is a "cowboy", Bowen is "basically... Oscar Wilde as an explosives expert", Grant is a "rugged hero in the mold [sic] of... fictional colonialist Allan Quatermain", and Arden is a throwback to the vanishing "pre-Industrial Revolution master-apprentice era".
*Walter evidently passes his name on to his son, since another [[Walter Simmons II|Walter Simmons]] appears in the first movie prequel novel, "[[Ghosts of Yesterday]]".
*The ship's manifest seen on page nine is the list of the "[[First Seven]]" released on the internet during the [[Sector Seven (game)|Sector Seven alternate reality game]] promotion for the first movie. The names are here established to be aliases for the real men.
*Jetfire's appearance in this issue comes during the time he was wandering the Earth, previously glossed over in the final pages of [[Tales of the Fallen issue 3|''Tales of the Fallen'' #3]].
*Jetfire's maritime accident is a little unclear. It's based around the real-life sinking of the [[wikipedia:USS Maine (ACR-1)|USS ''Maine'']], which started the Spanish-American War. Barber's notes at the end of the issues claim that Jetfire was responsible for accidentally sinking it, but the art itself actually appears to suggest that Jetfire ''was'' the ''Maine'' (observe the anchor chains, masts and gunnery cannons that decorate his robot mode), and that him transforming was mistaken for the ship breaking up and sinking.
*On page fourteen, Bowen is reading ''The War of the Worlds'' by H.G. Wells (for whom Joseph is named).
*Early online solicitations for this issue accidentally claimed it was being written and drawn by the creative team of IDW's ''True Blood'' comic. Copy-paste cock-up!

===Covers (3)===
*'''Cover A:''' Archibald discovers Megatron, sepia version by [[Brian Rood]] of [[:Image:TFSector7 1 coverRI.jpg|art]] originally by [[Josh Nizzi]].
*'''Cover B:''' Sector 7 flotsam and jetsam by [[Joe Suitor]].
*'''Cover RI:''' An incentive cover of the flotsam and jetsam in lovely black borders.

<gallery>
Image:Sector7issue1 coverA.jpg|
Image:Sector7issue1 CoverB.jpg|
Image:TFSector7issue1 coverRI.jpg|
</gallery>

===Advertisements===

[[Category:IDW Revenge of the Fallen issues]]

Highbrow (TF 2010)

2010-08-10T22:58:36Z

72.128.51.130: /* Transformers (2010) */

{{faction|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Highbrow}}
:''Highbrow is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'' toyline.]]''

'''Highbrow''' is an Autobot World War II bomber.

==Toys==
===''Transformers'' (2010)===
*'''Highbrow''' (Voyager Class, 2010/2011)

:Highbrow transforms into a [[World War II]]-era bomber resembling a cross between a [[wikipedia:Lockheed P-38 Lightning|P-38 Lightning]] and an [[wikipedia:Vought XF5U|XF5U "Flying Pancake"]]. In robot mode he features a flip-down battle mask and propellers for weapons. Strangely, he doesn't feature a faction symbol in either mode.

{{comingsoontoy}}

[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: Transformers 2010 toyline characters]]
[[Category: Toy-only characters]]

Alpha Trion/Generation 1

2010-08-04T04:52:27Z

72.128.51.130: /* Notes */

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Alpha Trion}}
:''Alpha Trion is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Alphatrionkhanna.jpg|right|228px|thumb|If Alpha Trion were a Decepticon, you KNOW he would stroke his beard while contemplating conquest. You know it.]]
'''Alpha Trion''' is one of the oldest living Transformers, and with that age comes a nuanced understanding of his race and their place within the universe. In his youth, he went by the name '''A3''', and in this time, he helped lead the enslaved Cybertronians in their rebellion against their cruel masters, the [[Quintesson]]s. As a result, he was instrumental in first establishing [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] as an independent planet.

In his older years, he has found a comfortable role in serving as advisor to other Transformers. Though not taking part in the battles of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], he is firmly on the side of the Autobots, serving as a mentor and guide, especially to [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Elita One]]. He is an enigmatic old robot, though he is known to be the guardian of [[Vector Sigma]] and the custodian of its [[Key to Vector Sigma|circuit key]]. His sage-like manner paints him in almost a mystic tone, and possible connections between Alpha Trion, [[Primus]], and the history of Cybertron itself have boosted him into legendary status.

:''Japanese name:'' '''Alpha Trin''' (except for "The Rebirth")
:''Indonesian name:'' '''Alpa Trion'''
:''Chinese name (China):'' '''Tai Shifu''' (鈦師傅, "Master Titanium")

{{note| In 2010 Hasbro introduced a [[retcon]] naming Alpha Trion as a member of the [[Thirteen original Transformers]], and thus a likely [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularity]] (meaning, basically, that all Alpha Trions in the [[multiverse]] would be the same individual). Due to the lengthy histories many of these incarnations (especially this one) had prior to the retcon we have opted to leave their pages as separate entities, and merely note the retcon on each individual page. For the Alpha Trion that is definitively one of the 13 see: [[Alpha Trion (Prime)]]}}

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
''Voice actors:'' [[John Stephenson]] (English), [[Corey Burton]] (English, "[[War Dawn]]"), [[Tony Pope]] (English, "[[Forever Is a Long Time Coming]]"), [[Osamu Saka]] (Japanese), [[Hiroshi Naka]] (Japanese, ''The Rebirth'' only)

[[Image:YoungA3.jpg|left|thumb|Silverbolt never misses a chance to check out A3's rugged mustache.]]
11 million years ago, a mechanoid named A3 was part of the [[Autobot Rebellion|rebellion]] against the [[Quintesson]]s on a [[Cybertron (planet)|factory world]], creating a device called the [[Coda Remote]] that would stop their [[Dark Guardian]]s. Due to a timerift created by Quintessons from the future, he was briefly pulled from his position in the [[Empty Lands]] into the year 2006. Fortunately, his partner [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] managed to start the rebellion as scheduled, and A3 was soon returned by future [[Autobot]]s to fulfill his role in Cybertronian history. {{storylink|Forever Is a Long Time Coming}}

[[Image:Alphatrionagesbackwards.jpg|right|thumb|He grew a beard, picked up the Matrix, shaved his beard, and then built Optimus, apparently.]]
Years later, he would be given the [[Matrix of Leadership]] by a [[U-Haul Robot|dying Autobot leader]], but Alpha Trion himself did not become Autobot leader. It would sit in his possession, unused, until the coming of the next Autobot leader. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}} In the meantime, Alpha Trion developed plans to rebuild Autobots to better combat the escalating [[Decepticon]] menace.

The next Autobot leader would actually come to ''him'' when a [[Aerialbot (G1)|group of time-travelers]] lugged a dying youth named Orion Pax to his repair center. Reluctant at first, Alpha Trion sensed a strong spirit in Orion Pax, and decided to rebuild him entirely... into [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]. When Prime asked if Alpha Trion could rebuild his fallen girlfriend Ariel as well, Alpha Trion agreed, and mused that [[Elita One]] would be a good name for a female warrior. {{storylink|War Dawn}}

[[Image:AlphaTrion.jpg|left|thumb|"Yes, she is a girl."]]

Over the intervening millennia, Alpha Trion's two greatest creations, whether by design or coincidence, forgot their relationship to the ancient Autobot. Five million years after his creation, Optimus Prime was lost when his spacecraft crash-landed on prehistoric Earth, but Alpha Trion kept in contact with Elita One, acting as a sagely advisor to her team of [[Female Autobots]] as they spent the following four million years stealing [[energon (fuel)|energon]] from [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]. Eventually, in the Earth year 1985, Shockwave caught the Female Autobots in the act and tracked them back to their headquarters, prompting Elita One to consult with Alpha Trion on a course of action. Trion suggested they move their headquarters, telling Elita to scout for a new location alone, but in the event that she encountered the Decepticons, warned her not to use her life-draining time-freezing power. Alas, Elita was captured, and used by the Decepticons to lure Optimus Prime into a trap. To save her beloved's life, Elita used her fatal power, and the Autobot leader was forced to track Alpha Trion to his secret base in hopes that he could save her. Alpha Trion repaired her to the best of his ability, but revealed to Optimus Prime that only Prime could save Elita by interfacing to her with his power filter. An astonished Optimus Prime stated that only his creator could know that! {{storylink|The Search for Alpha Trion}}

[[Image:Ktvs prime and trion.jpg|right|thumb]]

A short time later, while he was looking for a [[10.2 ultra-drill|misplaced tool]], Alpha Trion was attacked in his workshop by Megatron and his Decepticons, who demanded that he hand over the [[Key to Vector Sigma]]. Trion pled ignorance, but Megatron knew better, and the elderly Autobot was soon overpowered while the Decepticons made off with the key. Alpha Trion was rescued from the chunk of metal the Decepticons left him stuck in by Optimus Prime and the Autobots, and after his injuries were repaired by [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], he journeyed with them into Cybertron's depths, leading the way to Vector Sigma's chamber. Their way, however, was barred by [[Centurion droid]]s that Megatron used the Key to command, and Alpha Trion helped reactivate some discarded worker robots to fight the droids off. The droids had done their job, however, and prevented the Autobots from reaching Megatron before he used Vector Sigma to bring his newest Decepticons, the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]] to life. To combat these new land-based Decepticons, Optimus Prime hit on the idea of creating some new aerial Autobots, and Alpha Trion set to work reconstructing some Cybertronian aircraft. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1}} When the work was done, Alpha Trion professed that he had another key to Vector Sigma "on him," and he would use it to reactivate the computer so that it could bring the jets to life. His "key," however, was his own life force: as a first generation product of Vector Sigma, his computation matrix could interface with the computer and bring it back online, at the cost of his own continued existence. Optimus Prime tried to stop him, but Alpha Trion refused to listen, reminding Prime that he was his creator and insisting that the jets were more important that he was. Prime relented, and Alpha Trion merged with Vector Sigma, which activated and brought the new [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]] to life. Before Prime and the Autobots departed for Earth, Alpha Trion spoke to them through Vector Sigma, warning them of a fact merging with the computer had revealed to him: on Earth, the Key to Vector Sigma had even greater power. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2}}

Many years later, when the [[Hate Plague]] was raging throughout the universe in the year 2006, Optimus Prime entered the Matrix to consult the ancient Autobots within on a possible cure. Alpha Trion was the first Prime spoke to, but he had no information to give, save a warning that Prime should take care on his journey into the Matrix, lest he be unable to return. {{storylink|The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2}}

The following year, after the Decepticons stole the [[Key to the Plasma Energy Chamber]], Optimus Prime used the Matrix to reactivate Vector Sigma so that he could converse with Alpha Trion, hoping that the old sage knew something more about what was going on. Alpha Trion revealed to Prime that Vector Sigma had ''allowed'' [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] to become aware of the key's existence, as the chamber was key to the dawning of a new [[Golden Age]] for Cybertron... as was the merging of an [[Cerebros (G1)|Autobot]]'s life with that of a [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|human]]'s. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 2}}

====Japanese cartoon continuity====
{{note|The events of the Generation 1 cartoon occur in the Japanese timeline as described above, except that the events of 2006 take place instead in 2010, and "The Rebirth" does not occur. Japanese continuity inserts many additional stories into the timeline, only one of which features Alpha Trion.}}
=====''The Headmasters'' cartoon=====
[[Image:AlphaTrionGhost.jpg|right|thumb|Alpha Trion's Spooooooky Ghost]]
In the year 2011, one year after Optimus Prime released the energy of the Matrix to cure the Hate Plague, Vector Sigma began to destabilize as a result. Optimus Prime voyaged into the planet's depths to try and bring the computer back under control, but the mission seemed doomed to failure, as he did not have the Matrix to help him. While the other Autobots searched Earth for the Matrix, which had been hidden away to recharge, the spectral form of Alpha Trion appeared to Optimus Prime to help lead him through the many dangers blocking the path to Vector Sigma's chamber. {{storylink|The Mystery of Planet Master}} When they finally reached their goal, however, it turned out the Decepticons had beaten them there. [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] was not far behind, with the recovered Matrix in his grasp, and when the young Autobot arrived, Alpha Trion instructed him to hold the talisman aloft. Trion's ethereal form flowed into the Matrix, completing its recharging process and transforming Hot Rod back into Rodimus Prime, who joined Optimus is thrashing the Decepticons. {{storylink|Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime}}{{-}}

===''Universe: Featuring the Wreckers''===
[[Image:Alphatrionwreckers.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Alpha Trion was a lion for all of two seconds.]]
Alpha Trion was seemingly resurrected and/or reformatted as a lion by the [[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]] to guide [[Primal Prime]] and his [[Wrecker|Wreckers]] in much the same way as he aided many previous Autobot leaders. {{storylink|Departure}} It is unclear whether this new form ever existed physically; its only appearance was as a vision in Primal Prime's head. {{storylink|Betrayal}}

[[Image:Alphatrionuniverse.jpg|right|150px|thumb|You know, screw this lion thing.]]
However, he did not make an appearance after this enigmatic reintroduction until [[Unicron]] posed a new threat to the balance of the multiverse. Alpha Trion, though technically still merged with [[Primus]]/[[Vector Sigma]]/Whatever, was again in his original body (but now with a cape!). He/they pulled Cybertron's greatest hero, [[Optimus Primal]], back from the dead in order to rescue recently abducted Cybertronians from the center of the Chaos Bringer. {{storylink|Abduction}}

When Primal succeeded at this monumental task, {{storylink|Escape (issue)|Escape}} he confronted the [[Maximal Elders]] with one of his overblown speeches and was thrown in jail. Alpha Trion sent [[Snarl (BM)|Snarl]] to stage a small rescue of his own, and Primal was returned to the center of Cybertron. Here, Alpha Trion presented Primal with a window into the past, present, and future of the [[Allspark]], from which he could pluck any warrior, whether they be living or dead. Primal chose [[Depth Charge (BW)|Depthcharge]] and [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], the former of whom rejected Primal's calling. Alpha Trion quieted Primal's disappointment, letting Depthcharge go, expecting him to return of his own accord. To take his place, Alpha Trion pulled [[Omega Prime]] from the ''[[Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' universe. {{storylink|Homecoming (issue)|Homecoming}}

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
[[Image:Alphatriondw.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Most people kill their prizes before hanging them on their wall. Shockwave is not most people.]]
Eons ago, Alpha Trion kept watch over the Transformers when Primus entered his eternal sleep to hide Cybertron from Unicron. However, a nomadic alien race eventually conquered Cybertron, and Alpha Trion was forced into hiding. Thousands of Transformers were slaughtered, and Alpha Trion was unable to act.<ref>[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]</ref> What exactly happened afterwards is unknown, but it is implied that Alpha Trion eventually drove the invaders off Cybertron.

Alpha Trion was last seen hanging on [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]'s wall. This was apparently meant to be very important to the huge, over-arching plot of the entire universe, but odds are we'll never learn why. {{storylink|War and Peace}}
{{-}}
===''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''===
[[Image:Historyofcybertron.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Trukk... and munky?]]
When [[Serpent O.R.]] downloaded some of [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]]'s memories, he saw Alpha Trion and his role in the [[Cybertronian Civil Wars#G1 cartoon continuity|rebellion]] against the [[Quintesson]]s. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 1}}
{{-}}

===IDW comics continuity===
[[Image:MO3 EOOPAT funeral.jpg|left|thumb|250px]]
Alpha Trion attended the funerals of [[Bumper (G1)|Bumper]] and [[Fastback (G1)|Fastback]], accompanied by [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Orion Pax]], [[Elita One|Ariel]], and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. {{storylink|Megatron Origin issue 3|Megatron Origin #3}}
{{spoiler|Ironing Out the Details|August 7, 2010}}
[[Image:Ironing Out the Details Alpha Trion.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Not Bludgeon. Honest.]]Several million [[units of time|meta-cycles]] later, Alpha Trion found himself the last Transformer on Cybertron, working to restore the planet after it had been rendered virtually uninhabitable by normal Transformers and overrun by the monstrous [[Insecticon swarm]]. Requiring the toughest of the tough to obliterate the swarm, Alpha Trion determined to create for himself a duplicate of [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] to do the job, constructing a new body and programming it with Ironhide's four-million-year-old memories, saved in the "core". With Vector Sigma having been essentially erased in the event that devastated Cybertron, this took Trion years and pushed his skills to their limit, but, by coincidence or some grand cosmic or spiritual design, it was not until the "real" Ironhide died on Earth that Trion was able to complete "his" Ironhide.

Ironhide awoke in confusion and wandered Cybertron's wastes until Alpha Trion dispatched his [[Scamper|page]] to bring the befuddled warrior to his [[Metroplex (G1)|base of operations]]. Alpha Trion took umbrage at the fact Ironhide had never heard of his ancient greatness, and revealed his incredible powers over his own electromagnetic aura by using it to control Ironhide's actions when the ornery Autobot started to get a little rough. Ironhide further tested Trion's patience when he ignored his cautions and ventured out to track down the near-dead [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] (even if Sunstreaker ''had'' heard of him). Finally, Trion relented to Ironhide's constant questioning and explained the reason he had brought him back online: to exterminate the swarm.
{{storylink|Ironing Out the Details}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===Unreleased===
[[Image:Alphalion.jpg|right|300px|thumb|You'll never own me.]]
A redeco of [[Snarl (BM)|''Beast Machines'' Snarl]] was planned as Alpha Trion for the [[The Official Transformers Collectors Convention|OTFCC]] ''[[Universe (2003 comic)|Wreckers]]'' storyline, but this concept never made it past the paint mock-up stage.

A redecoed [[Lio Convoy]] was also considered by [[3H Productions|3H]] for Alpha Trion around the same time, and it was sort of this version that briefly appeared in the comic book (see above). Though the toy [[Prototype|mock-up]] used Snarl, 3H hoped they could finagle the use of the Lio Convoy mold. "Alpha Lion"'s wireframe appearance in [[Departure|''Wreckers'' #1]] used Lio Convoy's body, but Snarl's head, hopefully allowing 3H to fudge either way, should they come to a decision. They didn't!

{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Super Collection Figure===
* '''Alpha Trin''' (2002)

: A three-inch-tall [[plastic|PVC]] figurine of Alpha Trion was available in "Act 8" of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Super Collection Figure]]'' line. Like all the figures in the wave, it was available as both a standard full-color figure and a metallic-silver "pewter" version, one of each of which was available in a standard case of twelve [[blindpacking|blindpacked]] figures. Additionally, the pewter version of Alpha Trion came packaged with the left leg of the [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] collectible "build-a-figure".

: Alpha Trion was not among the ''Super Collection Figures'' brought over to the West for [[Hasbro]]'s ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line.

==Notes==
* Alpha Trion is one of the very few Cybertronians to show signs of aging and [[Facial hair|hair growth]].
* In the G1 cartoon, it's possible he lacked an alternate mode because he was created much before the Great Wars, and thus before the Autobots developed transformation in order to defeat the Decepticons.
* According to a note in Japan's ''[[Comic Bom Bom]]'' magazine, A3 was the first successful Cybertronian, A1 and A2 being failures. However, the presence of Cybertronians within the Matrix of Leadership older than Alpha Trion (as seen in "[[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2|The Return of Optimus Prime]]") makes the actual [[Canon|canonicity]] of this questionable.
* In ''[[Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'', an [[Alpha Trion (RID)|Alpha Trion]] is mentioned in "[[Ultra Magnus: Forced Fusion!]]" as an Autobot elder who created [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|Ultra Magnus]].
* The [[Unicron Trilogy]] has another nigh-identical [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|Alpha Trion]]. In fact, [[BotCon 2007]] Alpha Trion's bio suggests many continuities have him, and [[Multiversal singularity|they are all pretty much the same]].
* ... Except for the [[Alpha Trion (SG)|Alpha Trion who likes to hang corpses from his ceiling]].

==References==
<references />

==External links==
*[http://www.redshirt.co.uk/random/alpha-trion-vs-emirate-xaaron/ Horribly biased comparison of Alpha Trion and Emirate Xaaron]

[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Headmasters characters]]
[[Category:Elderly Transformers]]
[[Category:Ghosts]]

Transformers: Generations (toyline)

2010-08-04T02:54:51Z

72.128.51.130: /* Toys */ Time we updated the wave listings with what we know now.

{{disambig3|Generations}}
'''''Generations''''' is a line of Deluxe Class figures launched in 2010. Its ancestors are the 2006 ''[[Classics (2006)|Classics]]'' and 2008 [[Universe (2008)|''Universe'']] lines in that it, too, aims to recreate older Transformers characters as new toys and celebrate the history of the brand. Unlike ''Classics'' and ''Universe'', there will be no larger pricepoints. The range also includes designs from the video game ''[[War for Cybertron]].''

==Toys==
===General retail===
====Wave 1====
[[Image:Generations Drift toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|RETRIBUTION!]]
* [[Bumblebee (Prime)|Cybertronian Bumblebee]]
* [[Optimus Prime (Prime)|Cybertronian Optimus Prime]]
* [[Drift (G1)|Drift]]
* [[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]]
{{--}}

====Wave 2====
* [[Megatron (Prime)|Cybertronian Megatron]]
* [[Soundwave (Prime)|Cybertronian Soundwave]]
{{--}}
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Wave 3====
* [[Straxus (G1)|Darkmount]]
* [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]]
{{--}}
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Wave 4====
* [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] (retool/redeco of Drift)
* [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]]
{{--}}
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Future waves====
* [[Cliffjumper (Prime)|Cybertronian Cliffjumper]] (retool/redeco of Cybertronian Bumblebee)
* [[Jazz (G1)|Special Ops Jazz]]
* [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]
* [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]]
* [[Skullgrin]] (retool/redeco of Darkmount)
* [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]]
* [[Tracks (G1)|Turbo Tracks]]
* [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]] (retool/redeco of Perceptor)

{{comingsoontoy}}

[[Category:Franchises]]
[[Category:Generations| (toyline)]]
[[Category:Toys]]

Used Autobots

2010-07-31T02:46:27Z

72.128.51.130: /* Synopsis */ that's worded clumsily

{{comicstory|seriesissue=[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #32
|prev=Buster Witwicky and the Car Wash of Doom
|next=Man of Iron!
|title=Used Autobots
|seriesissue2=[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)#Marvel UK|''The Transformers'' (UK)]] #139–140
|prev2=Love and Steel!
|next2=Child's Play (issue)
|image=MarvelUS-32.jpg
|caption=Never buy a used Autobot without a Carfax™ history report.
|publisher=[[Marvel Comics]]
|date=May 1987
|coverdate=September 1987
|writer=[[Bob Budiansky]]
|pencil breakdowns=[[Don Perlin]]
|finishes=[[Ian Akin]] & [[Brian Garvey]]
|colorist=[[Nelson Yomtov|Nel Yomtov]]
|letterer=[[Pat Brosseau]]
|editor=[[Don Daley]]
|continuity=[[Marvel Comics continuity]]
}}

'''When the Throttlebots are captured by a used car salesman, both RAAT and the Combaticons arrive to collect them.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Skates.png|left|150px|thumb|It's nice that you've noticed the traffic violation, but shouldn't you be more concerned about the giant robot legs?]]
The [[Throttlebot|Throttlebots]] are under attack from the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticon]] Vortex. Although they are able to fight Vortex off with the help of Blaster riding Chase and Rollbar like roller skates, they attract unwanted human attention. When the Throttlebots stop for fuel at a Blackrock service station, the owner is able to report them to awaiting [[Rapid Anti-robot Assault Team|RAAT]] troops, who immediately attack. Although the Throttlebots are able to escape from RAAT, the battle gives Vortex the opportunity to track the Throttlebots once again. Meanwhile, Grimlock sends the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] to retrieve Blaster and Goldbug.

Unable to refuel, the Throttlebots stop at a used car lot for the night. When the owner, [[Big Steve Ludwig]], tries to have the damaged Rollbar towed, the Throttlebots reveal themselves to Big Steve to stop him. Big Steve promptly reports the Throttlebots to the authorities and fills the Throttlebots' fuel tanks with soda to immobilize them.

When RAAT arrives to collect the Throttlebots, they are intercepted by the Combaticons, who intend to destroy the Throttlebots themselves. The Protectobots soon arrive on the scene and prepare to do battle. Big Steve attempts to save his lot by proposing that the opposing teams bid on who gets to take the Throttlebots. The auction is short-lived, however, as Onslaught radios Swindle, commanding him to kill Big Steve. Blaster sees Swindle prepare to fire and manages to throw off Swindle's aim just in time. The battle starts anew, and in the confusion, RAAT manages to take the Throttlebots away.

The Combaticons eventually retreat, and Blaster ensures that Big Steve doesn't get to profit from his friends' misfortune by destroying a check RAAT had paid him for the information leading to their capture. Blaster is then arrested by the Protectobots for rebelling against Grimlock's command. He is to be returned to the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] to be tried and executed...

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Wide Load]] (1)
* [[Searchlight (G1)|Searchlight]] (2)
* [[Freeway (G1)|Freeway]] (3)
* [[Chase (G1)|Chase]] (4)
* [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]] (5)
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] (6)
* [[Rollbar (G1)|Rollbar]] (7)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (8)
* [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (9)
* [[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] (10)
* [[Blades (G1)|Blades]] (11)
* [[Slag (G1)|Slag]] (12)
* [[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] (19)
* [[Groove (G1)|Groove]] (20)
* [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise]] (21)
|c2=
* [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (8)
* [[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (15)
* [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (16)
* [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (17)
* [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] (18)
|c3=
'''Regulars'''
* [[Walter Barnett]] (14)
'''Guests'''
* [[Big Steve Ludwig]] (13)
}}

==Errors==
* The cover depicts [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] standing behind Onslaught. Presumably this should have been [[Brawl (G1)|Braw'''l''']], since Braw'''n''' was not only not present at the battle but was actually out of commission at the time.
* Chase and Searchlight switch color schemes when they transform to confront Big Steve.
* When Rollbar is driving on the wrong (left) side of the road, Blaster instructs him to, "Pull over to the ''left!''" to avoid oncoming traffic. Rollbar instead swerves ''right'' (probably because going left wouldn't have helped at all).
* At one point Blaster says, "Under no cicumstances reveal your true identities!" The word should be "ci'''r'''cumstances". (Also, the Throttlebots completely ignore this order a few hours later.)
* ''Incorrectly regarded as a goof:'' The (apparent) owner of the service station reports the Transformers to RAAT as "Autobots." While most civilians would not know this term, he had presumably been briefed by either Blackrock (who provides free gas to Autobots specifically) or RAAT (who have heard the term, even if they don't believe in "good robots").

==Items of note==
* ''References to other Transformers continuities/issues:''
* This is the last time we see evidence of the Blackrock-Autobot fuel arrangement that was forged in "[[DIS-Integrated Circuits!]]".
* On page 7, Grimlock refers to the mission he sent Blaster and Goldbug on in "[[Mechanical Difficulties!]]" to retrieve the tools stolen by the [[Mechanic]] in "[[Funeral for a Friend!]]".
* The UK version has extra dialogue referring to the Throttlebots' encounter with the Combaticons in "[[Ladies' Night]]".

===Covers (3)===
<gallery>
Image:MarvelUS-32.jpg|'''US issue #32''' - Onslaught's only mistake: erecting a gigantic sign explaining his plan.
Image:MarvelUK-139.jpg|'''UK issue #139''' - AAAAAAAAA indeed
Image:MarvelUK-140.jpg|'''UK issue #140''' - Swindle's been scaled up to match Blast-Off's alt. mode!
</gallery>
* '''US cover:''' Protectobots vs Combaticons, by [[Frank Springer]].
* '''UK issue #139 cover:''' Blaster hitching a ride on the Throttlebots, by [[Robin Smith]].
* '''UK issue #140 cover:''' Swindle threatening to drop Big Steve, by [[Lee Sullivan]].

===Advertisements===
* None yet identified.

[[Category:Marvel US issues]]
[[Category:Marvel UK issues]]

Drift (G1)

2010-07-17T16:39:09Z

72.128.51.130: /* Generations */ Want to display Drift with his big sword on his hip? Here's how!

{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Drift}}
:''Drift is an [[Autobot]] from the [[IDW Generation 1 continuity|IDW]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:AHM 06 CoverA.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"Oh Drift-chan, you smell awesome, and not at all like feet!"]]

'''Drift''' (ドリフト ''Dorifuto'') was not always an Autobot. In fact, he slaughtered quite a few when he was known as the Decepticon '''Deadlock'''. But Deadlock's eyes were opened to what the Transformers' war had become when he stumbled across a lost faction of neutral Transformers long since forgotten. He discarded his ruthless ways, abandoned his guns for swords, and changed his name and appearance. When Drift returned to the Transformer war to make right what he put wrong, he was a bot of few words and disciplined action.

These days, Drift is a member of a ragtag team of rebels under the command of [[Kup (G1)|Kup]], working alongside many members of the disbanded [[Wrecker|Wreckers]]. Because of his brutal past, Drift isn't well-liked or trusted by [[Bumblebee (G1)|a few]] of the Autobots. The rest don't seem to care, or are [[Cliffjumper (G1)|genuinely impressed]] by his incredible skills, so long as they're used against the other side!

{{quote|We're going about this the wrong way, '''all''' of us! After countless centuries of fighting ... the Autobots are a '''step''' away from what we were when all this '''started.''' And us—the Decepticons have become something '''worse''' than any of us could have '''imagined'''.|Drift explains his new perception of the war to his [[Turmoil|former commander]]|"[[Spotlight: Drift]]"}}

==Fiction==
===IDW comics===
{{ongoing}}
{{-}}
[[Image:Drift1-Deadlock.jpg|left|thumb|300px|Deadlock prefers to pose so his legs don't block any of the action.]]

{{comingsoon|[[Transformers: Drift]] #1}}

While he was known as Deadlock, Drift used to be the second-in-command of the [[Decepticon]] [[Turmoil]]. During this time, he earned a reputation by slaughtering his Autobot opponents. At some point, Deadlock disappeared and was thought to be dead. Turmoil's only wish was that he had killed the traitor himself.

[[Image:SpotlightDrift Deadlockisdead.jpg|right|200px|thumb|He's your horrible fancharacter.]]

Some time later, after receiving a new body, fighting style and ''totally sugoi'' super-long sword that he can only use in the totally direst of times (and to pose for comic covers) from his mysterious benefactors, Drift set off to make a difference. His chance came in an attempt to free a group of Autobots held captive on the ship he'd previously served aboard. Upon entering Turmoil's ship, his attempt at stealth was successful until the [[Wrecker]]s arrived and blasted their way aboard. Jumping into the battle to assist them, he piqued the interest of a few Autobots. [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] was injured as Turmoil entered the battle and, recognizing Drift's voice as that of his former lieutenant, attempted to destroy him. However, his attack only resulted in knocking Drift and [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] to another room. The two quickly worked together to program the ship to overload. In his final confrontation with Turmoil, Drift stated his intention was to help, not kill, and left to rescue Perceptor before the ship blew up.

After his arrival on the Autobot ship, Kup invited Drift to join his new unit as an Autobot. {{storylink|Spotlight: Drift}}

[[Image:AHM15 DriftKupPerceptor.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Kup values Drift's contributions to the discussion.]]

Now a crew member of the spacecraft ''[[Trion]]'', Drift got to know his new teammate [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] over many friendly games of [[Go]]. Perceptor felt he owed a debt to Drift for saving his life, and so devoted much of his time to upgrading himself for more combat-oriented tasks. While Kup discouraged this, Drift stoically accepted Perceptor's new ambitions. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 15#"Lost & Found"|Lost & Found}}

[[Image:Allhailmegatron6-omgdriftomg.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Seriously, you made this guy up when you were eight.]]

They were soon baited into a Decepticon ambush over [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The ''Trion'''s command codes were hacked due to their being sold to the Decepticons by an Autobot traitor, and, left defenseless, it was forced to crash-land on the desolate landscape of the planet. Eventually, the crew were found by [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s unit, who unfortunately proved to be ''also'' stranded. When [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] was revealed by [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] to have been standing invisibly among them, Drift was the only one who didn't appear surprised. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 5|All Hail Megatron #5}}

When an advance scout of the [[Insecticon swarm|Insecticon Swarm]] discovered the Autobots' base camp, Drift was dispatched to take care of it. Drift stood stock-still as the creature walked up to him, greeting it with a simple, smirking "hello" as the monstrous beast snarled in his face. Finally, he beheaded the scout with a single wave of his sword. A second creature tried to attack Drift from behind, but the smirking Autobot merely tilted his head slightly, allowing [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] to kill the beast with some precision sniping. [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] thought the incident was the coolest thing ever. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 6|All Hail Megatron #6}}

After [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] revealed to [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] that he was the traitor, an army of the Swarm came after them. Drift saved Ironhide while Sunstreaker blew up a bridge, killing himself and the Swarm army. Later, Drift visited Ironhide and claimed that the Decepticons had access to the Autobots' systems in a way that Sunstreaker couldn't possibly have. Ironhide asked if this meant there was a second traitor, but Drift replied that there was simply more to the situation than they knew. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 8|All Hail Megatron #8}}

[[Image:Thundercracker Drift.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Drift-slap! 'Cracker don't take crap!]]

When Mirage was showing some doubt in the Autobot cause, it was Drift who said that, now more than ever, the Autobots should continue being who they are. [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] insinuated that Drift had no right to say something like that, which started an argument that was only stopped by the return of Optimus Prime. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 9|All Hail Megatron #9}}

Drift took part in the battle against the Swarm and joined the others in escaping Cybertron in Omega Supreme. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 10|All Hail Megatron #10}}. On Earth, he battled the Decepticons, and when [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] volunteered to divert the humans' nuclear bomb, Drift attempted to congratulate his former comrade on seeing the light. Thundercracker called him a traitor, slapping Drift's hand away and claiming he was merely following the Decepticons' ''true'' ideal.{{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 12|All Hail Megatron #12}}

Two years later, Drift is still with the Autobots, hiding on Earth. {{storylink|...For All Mankind}} After Optimus Prime left the Autobots, Drift decided to stay with the larger group, rather than leave with Rodimus and his fellow defectors. Drift celebrated Bumblebee's election with numerous other Autobots. {{storylink|The Hanging Sword}}

===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:IAmOptimusPrime-Drift.jpg|right|thumb|200px|He makes it so hard to like him and then he does this. So confused!]]
Drift was [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime's]] friend and always let his actions speak louder than words. When the Autobots arrived on Earth, he hid himself in a lake. Upon Optimus's order, he transformed into his car mode to roll out. Later, when the Decepticons attacked, he pushed [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] over a tripwire held by some of the Autobots' [[human allies]]. {{storylink|I Am Optimus Prime (Robot Heroes)|I Am Optimus Prime}}

{{note|In "I Am Optimus Prime," Drift transforms from his Cybertronian robot mode to his Earth car mode. Also, he's either [[Snake-Eyes|mute]] or doesn't like to talk.}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===Generations===
[[Image:Generations Drift toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Comes with a gun that shoots swords.]]
*'''Autobot Drift''' (Deluxe, 2010)
**''Accessories'': Two "dual swords", one large sword

:Drift transforms into a cross between an [[Wikipedia:Nissan Silvia#S15|Nissan Silvia S15]] and the [[Wikipedia:Mitsubishi FTO|Mitsubishi FTO]]. In vehicle mode, Drift's two shorter "dual swords" store inside his doors (which double as his hip sheaths during robot mode), while the larger sword stores in a set of grooves on the underside of his vehicle (also used in robot mode). It can also be stored (in robot mode) in the doors where the windows fold up. Behind his windshield kibble is his pre-Earth chest design, in a nod to the form Drift had been seen in almost exclusively at the time of the toy's unveiling. Due to his ball jointed wrists, Drift is one of the few Transformers figures that can hold a sword with a two-handed grip.

:While Drift's Earth mode designs showed him sporting the katakana ドリフト ("drift") on his car doors, the toy instead sports the kanji 侍 ("samurai"). The large sword sports the kanji 天下無双 (''tenka musō'', "peerless under heaven", or just "peerless" if you're not feeling idiomatic.)

: Drift's mold will be [[retool]]ed into ''Generations'' [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]].

==Notes==
* Commenting on what inspired him to create Drift, writer/creator [[Shane McCarthy]] said that "I wanted a character in AHM that had a particular element to him that I didn’t see readily available elsewhere and secondly because, frankly, I thought it would be a great idea for Hasbro to have an Autobot Drift racer."<ref>[http://www.smactalk.com.au/?p=101 Shane McCarthy blogs about Spotlight: Drift.]</ref> He later said he wanted to show what'd happen if a former Decepticon became an Autobot. <ref>[http://tformers.com/article.php?sid=11723 Podcast interview with Shane McCarthy]</ref> Of course, this has never [[:Category:Turncoats|happened before]].

* According to McCarthy, Drift's Japanese overtones are meant to be a tip of the hat "to the country that gave birth to [''Transformers'']."<ref>[http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18585 Comic Book Resources October 27th, 2008 interview with Shane McCarthy]</ref> It is possible (though unlikely given how many people mistakenly believe ''Transformers'' is Japanese) that he meant ''[[Diaclone]]'' and ''[[Micro Change]]'', as the ''[[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' franchise was developed between [[Hasbro]], [[Griffin Bacal]] and [[Marvel Comics|Marvel Entertainment]], three American companies.

* Drift's name is derived from the Japanese driving technique of "[[wikipedia:Drifting_(motorsport)|drifting]]", rendered in Japanese as ドリフト走行 (''dorifuto sōkō''). This is also the source of the Japanese katakana writing on his car mode doors and in Chris Ryall's announcement;<ref>[http://ryalltime.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post.html "ドリフト走行*" entry in Chris Ryall's blog]</ref> it is a transliteration of his English name and is not from Japanese fiction.

* [[IDW Publishing]] initially claimed that Drift had been solicited by [[Hasbro]] to receive a toy in the ''[[Universe (2008 franchise)|Universe]]'' line. This may have been premature, as it was followed several months later with a denial, albeit from Hasbro's Australian offices.<ref>[http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=3438 Ozformers Q&A with Hasbro Australia]</ref> This was rebutted by IDW editor [[Chris Ryall]] at New York Comic-Con 2009, denied again in the March 2009 Hasbro Q&A for Seibertron.com<ref>[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/hasbro-answers-seibertrons-questions/15360 Hasbro March 2009 Q&A on Seibertron.com]</ref>, and finally acknowledged by Hasbro at [[BotCon 2009]], when early design sketches were unveiled for Drift's toy. The toy itself was first shown at [[Toy Fair 2010]].

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:Turncoats]]

Mudflap (ROTF)

2010-07-14T06:13:55Z

72.128.51.130: /* Deluxe Class Toys */

{{factions|autobotfilm|NEST}}
{{disambig3|Mudflap}}
:''Mudflap is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]] portion of the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].

[[Image:ROTF_Mudflap_promo.jpg|thumb|350px|Despite appearances, his chest is not someone's face.]]

The goofy-looking '''Mudflap''' and his [[The Twins|twin]] [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] are a result of a split spark, and share a close bond accordingly. Mudflap is hyperactive, noisy, argumentative, and eager... not that different from his brother. He's so desperate to impress that he comes off as having the robot equivalent of ADHD. <ref>[[Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe]]</ref> When they're not trying to outdo each other in crazy, daredevil antics, the twins are usually bickering with each other over anything. Like Skids, he possesses hyper-reactive optical imaging scanners, making him able to process tactical information faster than any other Transformer (except Skids).<ref>[[Transformers Comic issue 2.1|Skids Profile, Transformers #1 (Titan, Vol.2)]]</ref> As irritated as Mudflap gets from Skids' vocal one-upmanship, he realizes that they actually work best as a team.<ref>[http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/Battle-Bios.cfm Hasbro Mudflap Battle Bio]</ref>

Each twin can transform into smaller, separate vehicles or combine into a single, more durable alternate mode, <ref>[[Transformers Comic issue 2.1|Skids Profile, Transformers #1 (Titan, Vol.2)]]—greatly expanded from his ''[[Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe]]'' bio</ref> but whether they can combine similarly into a larger robot mode remains to be seen. Upon first arriving on [[Earth]], Mudflap and his brother took the form of a beat-up old ice cream truck, but he later [[Scanning|scanned]] a Chevy Trax for a disguise. That being said, it's unlikely the twins will keep an alt-mode for long.

{{bigquote|Nobody messes with the twins!|Mudflap while doing damage to [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]], ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen]]''}}

==Fiction==
===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comics===

[[Image:Titan2-1_Mudflap.jpg|left|thumb|Quick! We have to get to auditions before the cool characters!]]

Sometimes, he has a small forcefield in vehicle mode. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.7|Turnabout}}

Mudflap first met [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] when they were about to be thrown into a [[smelting pool]]. It was fun! {{Storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.2|Dogfight!}}

Mudflap and Skids happily stayed on Cybertron, going through intensive training (which ''totally'' wasn't goofing off) and having extreme-sports contests. Neither wanted to leave their homeworld, and they were the only Transformers on it until [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] turned up with [[Purple generic drones|a Decepticon army]]. When they heard him mention a [[Solar Harvester|star harvester]], Mudflap said they should tell someone...but was a bit upset to find out the fastest way to do that would be to leave Cybertron and tell the Autobots in person.

The decision was made for them when the Decepticons attacked. Mudflap took some hits, causing Skids to obliterate the Decepticons responsible, but for the most part, their training paid off. However, he realised they were running out of places to run, so he followed his brother in leaving the plane, with only one course of action remaining: follow the message [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] had beamed into space and head for [[Earth]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.1|Training Day}}

The twins made it to Earth soon, crash-landing in Toronto, Canada. On the way in, Mudflap hit a [[Wikipedia: CN Tower|big tower]], and was a bit guilty since he knew how these primitive luddite humans still needed radio waves (the saps). They swam their way to Ball's Falls, where they picked up Earth alternate modes and, Mudflap taking charge, set out to try and find local Autobots and warn them about the solar harvester.

Driving along the wrong side of the Interstate, the twins were attacked by the [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]] [[Ransack (ROTF)|Ransack]], who pursued them across open countryside, trying to kill them on Starscream's orders. Mudflap transformed and blinded the old Decepticon with a fistful of dirt, which bought the twins some time to find cover. However, the airborne enemy kept up with the twins, and Mudflap lost a chance at cover when he ran back to save his brother. Luckily they were saved by Bumblebee, who attacked and forced Ransack to retreat. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.2|Dogfight!}}

[[Image:Titan2-3_Mudflap_face.jpg|right|thumb|Sorry, [[Jon Davis-Hunt|Jon]], at some point you have to draw their ugly mugs.]]

Now living at [[NEST]]'s Californian base with Bumblebee as their minder, Skids and Mudflap repeatedly asked to deliver their info to [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]—and only Optimus, much to [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide's]] annoyance. He was more annoyed when they ambushed him to get to Optimus...who, as it turns out, was away on a need-to-know mission anyway.

After this defeat, and with Ironhide having bluntly told them nobody believed them, they desperately asked to join in a NEST op in [[Las Vegas]]...getting turned down, because they were too crap to get involved. Mudflap almost called their superior a very rude word over this, and after the team had left, he decided they should go to Vegas ''anyway'' to show Ironhide just what they could do! What they could do, it turned out, was screw up a successful mission by freeing [[Grindor (ROTF)|a captured Decepticon]] by trying to "shoot him down". Mudflap was left mortified. Ironhide, recognising what they were trying to do, told him that maybe they could work on training the twins not to jump in without looking, and that the trick was to learn from mistakes. The twins claimed they'd try. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|Learning Curve}}

They soon wished they hadn't, as they were condemned to NEST's [[United Kingdom|Orkney Islands]] base for days of sim-com (simulated combat) training under [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]]. Mudflap agreed with Skids' theory that this was an excuse to keep them away from Optimus, and the whole situation got on his nerves. They both protested to Sideswipe that they could handle Decepticons. Him pointing out their failure with Grindor shut them up. However, the training was interrupted when [[Ravage (ROTF)|a huge metal cat monster]] broke into the base, KOed Sideswipe, and tried to eat the twins!

[[Image:Titan4_Mudflapravage.jpg|left|thumb|250px]]

They transformed and fled, with all attempts at holding it off failing. Mudflap hit on a plan of trapping the creature in the sim-com room and letting the drones shoot it down. He pulled this off, using himself as bait; in the process, he received a communication from [[Soundwave (ROTF)|the monster's master]], who demanded to know what the twins knew about some lost and fallen guy. Mudflap briefly wondered who this dude was, then shrugged and just sprang the trap on Ravage.

With that done, the twins tried to fill in the revived Sideswipe... except the creature had gone, leaving their instructor with the view that ''they'd'' knocked him out in revenge for their training. Between that and Grindor, he thought they were up to something... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.4|New Tricks}}

[[Image:Titan2-5_twinsHEstartedit.jpg|right|thumb|Even the ''characters'' [[Mudflap (ROTF)#Trivia|shift the blame]] over who came up with their dialogue!]]

The twins were later taken to Diego Garcia, and ecstatic to learn Optimus was coming there! Okay, he's only dropping a prisoner off, he's not here to see them and knows nothing about their story, but they ignored all that and drove off when Sideswipe wasn't looking so they could greet the leader. Mudflap squeed over how Optimus would be so proud with ''his'' work! Skids picked up on that and accused his brother of trying to steal the glory, and soon the two of them were having a big fight and slagging match...

And so their first meeting with Optimus Prime was to be yelled at for conduct unbecoming of an Autobot warrior. (See the pic to the side to find out how ''that'' went.)

That was when [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] made his attack, blasting at the distracted Prime and moving to free the prisoner [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]]. Mudflap swiftly grabbed a weapon to stop this escape, but Sideways snatched it from his hands and used it himself to cover his retreat. Sideswipe, watching from a distance, believed Mudflap had ''given'' over the weapon, and convinced Prime that the twins were traitors: they must have helped Scorponok get here and now assisted him in his mission, on top of freeing Grindor and attacking him! Mudflap and Skids protested they were being set up because they knew too much, but it fell on deaf ears as they were taken into custody... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.5|Reversal of Fortune}}

[[Image:Titan2-6_aimedatyourheart.jpg|left|thumb|Heart, head, near enough...]]

Following this, the decision was made to exile the twins into orbit. Mudflap and his brother moaned that they should've just ignored the Fallen, but help was at hand... from the Decepticons? Mudflap angrily told [[Wheelie (ROTF)|Decepticon agent Wheelie]] that they didn't ''want'' to be freed by ''him'', but the complaint fell on deaf ears: now the twins looked like even ''bigger'' traitors. The two went underground to clear their names, and hit on the foolproof plan of abducting [[Sam Witwicky]] from his house and pleading with him to tell their story to Optimus. All this did was cause Bumblebee to launch an attack to rescue Sam. Mudflap pleaded with the angry Bumblebee that they weren't traitors, that they had vital info...

...and then [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] gunned down the scout and offered the twins sanctuary in the Decepticons. Nowhere else to go, Mudflap took Soundwave's hand and said he'd never liked Earth anyway... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.6|Outlaw Blues}}

[[Image:Titan_deceptitwins.jpg|thumb|right|250px|"No offence, Sideways, but you're a boring, stupid, unimportant waste of metal and your mum hates you."]]

Once in the Decepticons, he had fun dissing all the other members as being losers and getting on ''everyone's'' nerve, before Soundwave finally sent them on a mission to bring in a rogue member. Once on Earth again, he was genuinely surprised to find out Skids was only ''pretending'' to defect; his annoyed brother explained the plan was that, since Soundwave would send a minder to watch them, they could ambush their minder and have a prisoner to give to the Autobots.

The rogue member turned out to be Ransack, and Mudflap helped Skids lie to him that the Fallen had sent them. Talking instead of fighting? That annoyed ''both'' of their minders, and they came under attack by Grindor and Sideways! Mudflap was ordered after Sideways, and engaged him in a game of chicken; the Decepticon blinked first and crashed into a tree. He thought this was enough, but Skids was determined that they'd now take the fight to Soundwave himself! (Mudflap's considered response was "YOWZA!") {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.7|Turnabout}}

[[Image:Titan2-8_twinsanywaytowelcome.jpg|left|thumb|350px|]]

Upon returning to the Phobos base, Mudflap was consulted about having a plan of attack. He decided why bother having plans ''now'', just attack! The twins stormed the base, and Mudflap was able to defeat Ravage by ducking the beast's attacks and planting an electrical bomb on him. However, this success was quickly undone and Mudflap found himself about to be killed by Starscream... but the battle gave Ransack an opening to shoot the Seeker in the back and escape, causing the other Decepticons to chase after him! The twins had ''no'' idea what ''that'' was all about... but this was just a short respite, as the twins discovered just what that army massing on Cybertron had been planning: to arrive at the Phobos base en route to Earth...

The twins stood ready to make their last stand, and Mudflap prepared to take down as many drones as possible... when Optimus arrived with the other Autobots! The twins had been tracked to Phobos and to their shock, the other Autobots had realised they weren't traitors and were even apologising! And with all the street cred of uncovering the Phobos base, the twins were welcomed to the Autobots' Earth division. Skids briefly wondered if they should mention "the ''Fa-''" again, but Mudflap told him they were ''never'' mentioning ''that'' bloody thing again. Whatever happened, [[#Revenge of the Fallen movie|would happen]]... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.8|Back-to-Back}}
{{-}}

===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
{{stub}}
{{storylink|Tales of the Fallen issue 6}}

[[Image:Alliance04 icecreamtruck.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Mudflap is the one in back.]]
Skids and Mudflap followed Optimus Prime's message to [[Earth]] and arrived on the planet at the same time as [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] and [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]]. They both chose the form of an old, beat-up ice cream truck. The newly arrived Autobots joined the human-Transformer military alliance [[NEST]] and began training in earnest at [[Diego Garcia]], but soon had to be deployed to [[Shanghai]], [[China]]. {{Storylink|Alliance issue 4}}
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Reno Wilson]] (English), [[Gerald Schaale]] (German), [[Katsuyuki Konishi]] (Japanese), [[Davide Lepore]] (Italian)

[[Image:ROTF-icecreamtruck.jpg|thumb|right|250px|ICE CREAM!... ICE CREAM!... I'm all out of ICE CREAM!...]]

The twins were first into action for NEST's mission to Shanghai, slowly trundling through the city streets in their ice-cream truck mode and taunting Decepticons in the area to show themselves. Two Decepticons soon did: [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] and [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]]. At NEST's orders, the twins went after the smaller foe and, working with Arcee, managed to herd him into an alleyway. However, their slow, ungainly choice of alternate mode left them unable to keep up with Sideways. While Arcee leapt through a building to pursue the Decepticon, the twins tried to go around the building to catch him. However, the twins inadvertently split apart from one another when they rounded the corner too sharply, thus taking them out of the chase. Mudflap took the blame for the crash, but Skids still berated (and smacked) Mudflap for his failure.
[[Image:ROTF Twins truck robot modes.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Ben and Jerry?]]
Upon arrival to Diego Garcia and NEST headquarters, the twins were given new, individual alternate forms to make sure another incident like that never happened. Mudflap wanted the Chevy Beat as a vehicle form, but after a brief wrestling match with his brother, he was relegated to the form of the [[wikipedia: Chevy Trax|Chevrolet Trax]].

Later, the twins, along with the other NEST-allied Autobots, were dispatched to look for [[Sam Witwicky]] when Decepticons were detected heading towards his college. After [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] was killed by [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], the twins helped the Autobot force fight off the Decepticon leader and [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]], allowing Sam, [[Leo Spitz]], [[Mikaela Banes]] and [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] to make good their escape. Skids and Mudflap met up with Bumblebee and the humans, and together they fled to a remote location. After the twins teased Leo for a while for his panic attack, Sam inquired whether one of them could interpret the Cybertronic symbols with which he had become obsessed. The twins claimed that they couldn't read the ancient Language of the Primes and weren't much into reading, anyway.

[[Image:ROTF_movie_SkidsMudflap_bigmother.jpg|thumb|right|250px|And this is us when we traveled to...hey, Skids, where did we go again?]]

With the help of the Decepticon [[Wheelie (ROTF)|Wheelie]] and former [[Sector Seven]] agent [[Seymour Simmons]], the group made their way to the Smithsonian, where the humans reactivated the venerable ex-Decepticon [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]]. He teleported them all to [[Egypt]] before telling them the tale of the original [[Dynasty of Primes|Primes]], the [[Solar harvester]], which had the potential to destroy all life on Earth, and finally, the [[Matrix of Leadership]], the key to activating the harvester and possibly the only thing that could bring Optimus Prime back to life. When the Matrix could not be found at the ruins of [[Petra]], Mudflap questioned why they where helping Sam, wondering what they had done for the Autobots. Skids pointed out that Sam ''had'' killed Megatron, but Mudflap said the point was moot since Megatron was now back. After calling each other "scared" and "ugly" the two began to fight with one another. After damaging the structure and nearly crushing the humans, Bumblebee picked the twins up, bashed them together, and threw them out the door. However, their bickering created a hole in the wall where the [[Tomb of the Primes]] lay, and with it, the Matrix.

[[Image:ROTF Devastator Mudflap swallow.jpg|thumb|left|250px|[[Simon Furman]] would have had a [[Furmanism|field day]] with this scene.]]
Making their way back to the Pyramids where NEST waited with Optimus Prime's body, the group came under attack by Starscream. Mudflap, Skids, Leo and Simmons acted as a decoy to lure the Decepticons away from Sam and Mikaela. Unfortunately, they attracted the attention of the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicons]], who [[combiner|combined]] into [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] and attacked by vacuuming up loose objects such as sand, cars, and Mudflap. Hanging on for dear life inside the monster's mouth, he tried to use his "[[Wikipedia:Kung-Fu grip|kung-fu grip]]", but was sucked further inside, losing his shoulder guards in the process.

[[Image:ROTF Mudflap vs Devastator.jpg|thumb|right|250px|"Wait Devastator! You have a bug on your face, let me shoot it for you!"]]
As Skids mourned the loss of his twin, Simmons realized that the safest place to be was directly under the giant. But he had survived being vacuumed up by Devastator, and to escape he had blasted a hole through its head. To buy the humans time to escape, Skids clambered up Devastator's [[Hightower (ROTF)|right forepaw]] to assist Mudflap. Skids threw a cable to Mudflap, who grabbed it and swung off Devastator's head onto his arm. However, once they had landed, Mudflap accidentally shot Skids in the face, knocking them off. At [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]]'s command, Devastator continued onto the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]]. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

===Toy bios===

Young and eager, Mudflap idolises Optimus Prime and the other great Autobot heroes. He and Skids went to Earth solely in the hope of joining up with their idols, and it's a dream come true for them! {{storylink|#Deluxe Class Toys|Deluxe Mudflap}} In an early mission, however, they found themselves used as guinea pigs for experimental combination technology; trying to ''stay'' combined in their gestalt vehicle mode took up more of their focus than fighting Decepticons! {{storylink|#Deluxe Class Toys|Autobot Skids and Mudflap}}

However, he must have impressed the Autobots as later, he was assigned to help Sideswipe take down an empowered [[Fearswoop (ROTF)|Fearswoop]]! {{storylink|The Fury of Fearswoop}} Normally, his role is to create diversions. {{storylink|Skids (ROTF)#Robot Replicas|Robot Replica Skids}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class Toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Mudflap.jpg|thumb|300px|My gal's got 'em.]]
*'''Mudflap''' (Legends, 2009)

: [[Legends Class]] Mudflap is a simple, affordable small-scale toy. Amusingly, just like his brother Skids, the [[kibble]] on his arm actually works as his big deformed hand, only grossly oversized.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/LegMudflap/mudflap.htm More information on Legends Mudflap at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|LawsonsLegend}}
[[Image:ROTF_LegendsMudflap_Lawson.jpg|thumb|300px|E.T.'s healing touch is bigger and better than ever]]
*'''Bumblebee / EZ Collection Mudflap''' (2009)

: Available exclusively at the Lawson's convenience store in Japan (and the only way to obtain this figure via TakaraTomy), the Japanese edition of Legends class Mudflap is identical to the Hasbro release. The Deluxe-class Preview Bumblebee it comes with is also unchanged from the regular release. Preorders opened on the [[May 1|1st of May]] and closed on [[June 30]]th, and the figure itself shipped on the [[October 16|16th of October]]. Although initial publicity photographs indicated that the toy was altered slightly from the US deco (see right), these photographs have proven to be inaccurate, as owners of this toy have reported no discernable differences from the standard US edition.[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-toy-discussion/281376-rotf-takara-v-hasbro-comparisons.html]

{{-}}{{anchor|Straightaway}}
[[Image:ROTF-toy_MudflapSS.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Straightaway Shootout''' (Legends multi-pack, 2009)

:Legends Mudflap was also be available in the [[Target]]-[[exclusive]] "[[Straightaway Shootout]]" 5-pack together with [[Ironhide (Movie)#Straightaway|Ironhide]], [[Swerve (Movie)#Straightaway|Swerve]], [[Runamuck (ROTF)|Runamuck]] and [[Sparkcrusher]]. Other than the sandy-spray across his feet and a glossy finish, he is identical to his standard release.

:In [[Canada]], the set was released as a Zellers exclusive.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/TargetLegMudflap/mudflap.htm More information on "Straightaway Shootout" Mudflap at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Fearswoop}}
[[Image:ROTF-toy MudflapFoF.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''The Fury of Fearswoop''' (Figure multi-pack, 2009)

:A "battle damaged" deco version of Legends Mudflap was available in the [[Walmart]]-exclusive "[[The Fury of Fearswoop]]" 3-pack together with a similarly "battle damaged" version of Legends [[Sideswipe (ROTF)#Fearswoop|Sideswipe]], and Deluxe class [[Fearswoop (ROTF)|Fearswoop]]. That the set uses a pair of Legends-class cars and a Deluxe-class jet means the toys are in a roughly-correct [[scale]] to each other... which is borked by the story, in which Fearswoop is supposedly much huger than normal thanks to some unnamed mystic artifact.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/WMLegMudflap/mudflap.htm More information on "Fury of Fearswoop" Mudflap at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
[[Image:TargetLegendsRallyMudflap.jpg|thumb|300px|How many damn copies of the Legends Mudflap mold do we '''need'''?]]
*'''Rally Mudflap and Offroad Skids''' (Legends multi-pack, 2010)

:This redeco of Legends Mudflap features a black hood and legs, along with dirt on his sides. He was packaged with a redecoed Skids as a [[Target]] exclusive two-pack, and was part of the [[N.E.S.T. Global Alliance]] [[subline imprint]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2010/Autobot/LegRallyMudflap/mudflap.htm More information on Rally Mudflap at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

====Deluxe Class Toys====
[[Image:ROTFMudflap Deluxe 2009.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Despite appearances, he is not a basset hound.]]
*'''Mudflap''' (Deluxe Class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-15'''
**''Accessories:'' Projectile

:Part of the third wave of ''Revenge of the Fallen'' Deluxe Class figures, Mudflap transforms into a rust-orange Chevy Trax. He transforms similarly to (but not exactly like) the Deluxe toy of his twin brother, Skids. He also has similar gimmickry; for example, his [[Mech Alive]] gimmick is also activated by pushing in the grill on his chest. This causes some panels in his chest to sway and his head to, uh, headbang. Additional Mech Alive action is engineered into his larger left arm. When his fist folds in towards his wrist, panels on the outside of his forearm spread and reveal a raising, spring-loaded missile launcher. In vehicle mode, this missile is stored through a cross-shaped hole on the rear bumper. On a sadder note, the clip which holds his chest to his back has a lot of trouble actually connecting, so you're going to be stuck with just carefully posing him so that he doesn't come undone.
:Interestingly, while Skids has a license plate with his own name on it, Mudflap has one that only says "Trax." However, there is a running change that replaces said "Trax" with "Mudflap" making for a more screen-accurate redeco.

: His feet are misassembled in the package. Swap them! The bigger, separated toe should be on the outside.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/Mudflap/mudflap.htm More information on Mudflap at TFU.info]''

[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_Skids&Mudflap_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|He was always the horse's rear end in school plays.]]
*'''Autobot Skids And Mudflap''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:''

:This two-pack of the twin Autobot brothers can combine into a single, old-fashioned ice cream truck. The vehicle splits in half right down the middle of its chassis (similar to how it does in the film) to create the two small robot forms. Other than the transformation, the toy features no [[gimmick]]s.

:Mudflap's heels are too thick for his feet to fold up properly in vehicle mode, though this can be fixed by trimming them. Mudflap also has a springloaded neck socket...but the reason for it is not all that clear.(the instructions do document it, but the head is not even locked in packed on the card) Also, this toy may be the first Transformer to feature the typeface Comic Sans, which is used to write "MADE FRESH FOR YOU" across both front wheel hubs. But that's on Skids's half, so Mudflap is partly absolved here.

:Amusingly, the ice cream truck accommodates [[Human Alliance]] human figures ''really'' well.

:Both Skids and Mudflap have sculpted rust detailing all over the Ice cream tuck, but for some reason, they are not painted.

{{-}}

[[Image:ROTFDesertVersionSkidsAndMudflap.jpg|thumb|250px|Muddy Mudflap.]]
*'''Desert Version Mudflap''' (Deluxe, 2009)
:This version of Mudflap has a sandblasted deco to closer match his onscreen appearance during the scenes in Egypt. It is only available in Japan with purchase of the Revenge of the Fallen DVD.

{{-}}
[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_Tuner_Mudflap.jpg|thumb|250px|Pimp my Derogatory Stereotype.]]
*'''Tuner Mudflap''' (Deluxe, 2009)

:A redeco of original Deluxe class Mudflap, his doors are painted with "tuner" racing stripes and the plastic is a different shade of orange. The windows are now translucent blue. His feet are now properly assembled.
:This guy shelfwarmed ''hard''.

{{-}}
[[Image:TRUShanghaiShowdownSkidsAndMudflap.jpg|thumb|250px|]]
*'''Shanghai Showdown''' (Multi-pack, 2010)
:In an effort to make them more [[Show-accuracy|movie-accurate]], the twins in this set have additional decals for you to put on (save for the "suck my popsicle" slogan) and painted rust and "Caution Children" for the ice cream truck mode. They come with a redecoed version of [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]].

{{-}}

====Human Alliance====
[[Image:Humanalliancemudflaptoy.jpg|thumb|280px|]]
*'''Mudflap / Chromia / Seymour Simmons''' (Human Alliance, 2010)
**''Japanese ID number:''
:Human Alliance Mudflap comes with a posable figure of [[Seymour Simmons]] and has a very similar transformation to his twin—understandable on a canonical level, since they're from the same spark, but a little disappointing to play with. As with HA Skids, he has a pop-up mini-gun behind his head which a back-mounted Simmons can man, and his seats end up on his arms, where Simmons can sit in either of them. The right seat has a twin-barreled gun molded into the base, while the left seat has a pop-up control panel for Simmons to operate, presumably to control the small grappling hook set above Mudflap's left hand, which a small winch can reel out and pull in.
:Mudflap also comes with a transforming figure of Chromia, which Simmons can ride.
:Unlike most transforming Mudflap figures, he is a more screen accurate shade of orange red, rather than just a rusty color.
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:ROTF_FAB_GrappleGripMudflap.jpg|thumb|300px|His special finger: There's no other like it.]]
*'''Grapple Grip Mudflap''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)
:''[[Fast Action Battlers]]'' Mudflap has a simplified transformation for younger buyers. His left hand's middle finger can be extended (yes, ha ha) on a rope to function as a grappling hook.

:The toy's name, "Grapple Grip Mudflap", is misspelled as "Grapp'''el''' Grip Mudflap" in various official instances, such as Hasbro's public website<ref name="fabhasbro">[http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/shop/details.cfm?guid=B237456C-7A23-1014-B596-FBA5EE4D560D&product_id=24286&src=endeca Hasbro website entry for FAB "Grappel Grip" Mudflap]</ref> and on the toy's [[multilingual packaging|European packaging]].

{{-}}

[[Image:ROTF-toy_FAB_RallyMudflap.jpg|thumb|300px|Nobody will know who I am now!]]
*'''Rally Mudflap''' (Fast Action Battler, 2010)

:Rally Mudflap is a [[redeco]] of Grapple Grip Mudflap, decorating him with a gray racing stripe on his roof and his name on his windshield.

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Gravity Bots====
[[Image:Mudflap Gravity Bot.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Believe it or not, his head looked like that before he entered the car compacter.]]
*'''Mudflap''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GB-05'''

: As a [[Gravity Bot]], Mudflap is a very boxy toy featuring no [[articulation]] whatsoever, relying solely on an [[autotransformation]] gimmick. When Mudflap is laid on his back in robot mode, gravity makes him transform into a somewhat [[super deformed]] car, and the process is reversed when the car is stood back up.

{{-}}
===Transformers (2010)===
====Deluxe Class Toys====
*'''Starscream's Assault''' (Multi-pack, 2010)

: This Walmart-exclusive two-pack contains desert-themed redecoes of Deluxe-class Mudflap and Voyager-class [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]. Mudflap is mostly tan with various red splotches on his vehicle mode.

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====R.P.M.s - Robot Powered Machines====
=====Battle Series=====
[[Image:ROTF-toy_RPM_Mudflap.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Mudflap vs Autobot Skids''' (R.P.M. Mini-Vehicle, 2009)
**''Number:'' '''04 of 08'''

: Number four in a series of eight [[Robot Powered Machines]] [[Mini-Vehicle]] versus packs, Mudflap is packaged with his twin Skids. It's a non-transformable Hot Wheels-like car, with his robot mode sculpted and painted onto his car-mode underside.

{{-}}
===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:RobotHeroes_MudflapRampage.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Looks like [[Jolt (ROTF)|the hybrid]] found himself a new friend... a total mudflap!]]
*'''Mudflap and Rampage''' (2009)

:''[[Robot Heroes]]'' Mudflap is a [[super-deformed]] figure with limited articulation in his neck, shoulders and, unusually for the line, his waist. He came in a two-pack with [[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage]].

{{-}}
[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Hey guys, wait for me!]]
*'''Desert Devastation''' (Multi-pack, 2010)

:Both Mudflap and Skids are sculpted in their vehicle modes for this box-set that also includes [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] and [[William Lennox]].

[[Image:Robotheroestwinswidewaysprimedemolishorsideswipe.jpg|right|thumb|300px|That's right. Enjoy your ''Robot Heroes'' ice cream truck.]]
*'''Shanghai Shootout''' (Multi-pack, 2010)
:Shanghai Shootout replicates the opening action scene from ''Revenge of the Fallen'', featuring figurines of Mudflap/[[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] (ice cream truck), [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]] (vehicle mode), [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]], and [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] (vehicle mode). Demolishor is a slightly-oversized figure and the centerpiece of the box set.

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* The ice cream truck is apparently based on a heavily customized 1930s Chevrolet truck.{{fact|confirmation needed}} [[Ben Procter]] apparently lifted the color scheme and deco for his early concept design for the ice cream truck<ref name="procterrotf">[http://conceptartworld.com/?p=2772 Ben Procter's ROTF concept art at Concept Art World.]</ref> ''directly'' off a photo of an [[Australia]]n ice cream truck that had been added to the Wikipedia article for "ice cream van" in February 2006<ref name="wikipediaice">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ice_Cream_Truck_Sydney_Australia_-_crop.png Photo of an [[Australia]]n ice cream truck at Wikipedia, added in February 2006.]</ref>, down to identical placement and design of the fonts and graphics. The details were later slightly tweaked for the final design that can be seen in the movie... but only very slightly so.
*One of the decals on the ice cream truck's side that was created specifically for the movie reads "([[Decepticon]] [[insignia]]) suck my popsicle." Classy. Too bad the toy ''does not have'' this decal. (Because, you know, for kids...)
**A "censored" version of the movie supposedly exists with the aforementioned text edited out, with the somewhat nonsensical result of a Decepticon symbol, followed by a long black space and then the word "popsicle". This version was shown in some international markets (even though other theaters in at least some of those same markets apparently got the uncensored version), and apparently also in some theaters in the USA. Another explanation for this would be that different theaters simply used different lightings settings, which effectively rendered the words "suck my" (which were written in dark red on a black backdrop to begin with) invisible, with no actual intention of "censorship" behind it.
[[Image:ROTFSmartCarTwinConcept.jpg|thumb|250px|Yeah, that's not phallic at all.]]
*The Twins' final alternate modes in the film, the Chevrolet Beat (Skids) and Chevrolet Trax (Mudflap), were designed by General Motors as small car concept vehicles. At one point in the film's pre-production, another small car, the [[wikipedia:Mercedes-Benz|Mercedes-Benz]] [[wikipedia:Smart (automobile)|Smart]], was evidently considered as an option for a film character; concept art of a "third twin" based on it appears in various sections of the ''Revenge'' DVD special features, always in close proximity to concept art of Skids and Mudflap. Whether it was meant to be a third character related to Skids and Mudflap or if it was supposed to be used in place of one of them is unknown. What '''is''' known is that [[Hasbro]] has had great difficultly in the past trying to get likeness licenses from German automakers, which is probably why the vehicle/character was dropped.
*Oddly enough, even though Mudflap's Chevy Trax [[alternate mode]] features big blue "eyes" on his chest and the truck seems to have a similar "face" on its grill that does not appear on his brother (and fellow [[combiner]]) Skids's Chevy Beat form, he makes up the ''back'' of the ice cream truck. He does, however, still have "eyes" on his chest in his ice cream truck form which are created from the rear taillights of the vehicle. This is evidenced in one scene from the movie where they are lit up the color of red.
*The Twins have been accused of being derogatory racial stereotypes. Writers [[Roberto Orci]] and [[Alex Kurtzman]] claim to have followed [[Michael Bay]]'s lead with the characters, while Bay says voice actors [[Tom Kenny]] (Skids) and [[Reno Wilson]] (Mudflap) came up with their schtick on their own. Reportedly, Wilson (who is African-American himself) was sad to learn his way of speaking was apparently offensive to himself.<ref name="jive">[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/transformers-jivetalking-_n_220005.html The Huffington Post's coverage of the furore over the Twins]</ref> Orci and Kurtzman said the twins' portrayal was not in their script, that they were disappointed in the characters and admitted that they could understand if others were offended by the characters.<ref>[http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/news/orci-and-kurtzman-respond-to-claims-of-racism-in-transformers-2.php Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman respond to claims of racism on ''Revenge of the Fallen'', Film School Rejects, June 24, 2009]</ref>
*The twins are less slangy in the [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|comic adaptation]] and [[Transformers (Titan Magazine)|Titan comics]], which could either indicate it was a last-minute voice actor decision or [[Simon Furman]] just didn't want to try writing ebonics.
*Mudflap fights his way out of [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator's]] head by punching and shooting his way through his eye and cheek and then continues to punch and shoot him, doing quite a bit of damage to the giant—and still some say the Twins don't do anything to justify their part in the film.
*In Tales of the Fallen #6, it's revealed that the Twins' processors were messed up by the medic Flatline. So perhaps they were NORMAL at some point? Wow.





*Amusingly, [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/Battle-Bios.cfm Hasbro's Battle Bio] for Mudflap lists his arch-enemy as... [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]].
*Despite promotional pictures and most of the merchandise made for Mudflap, in the film he is actually closer to red than orange. The RPM and Human Alliance figures are close to the actual character's colors in the film.

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:NEST]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]

Transformers (2010 toyline)

2010-06-30T21:47:47Z

72.128.51.130: /* Deluxe */

{{disambig3|Transformers}}
'''Transformers''' is a toyline launched in [[2010]] with the intention of re-envisioning the [[Movie (toyline)|live action movie toyline]] into a broader celebration of the history of the brand. The line now features many characters who had not appeared in the movies, but at the same time [[Hasbro]] is able to plausibly present it as a movie tie-in to retailers who (naturally) are very eager to stock merchandise related to the highly popular and successful films.

It also includes the [[Hunt for the Decepticons]] promotion.

==Toyline==
===Action figures "main line"===
====Legends Class====
[[Image:TF2010-toy Legends Rampage.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Cyberfire Bumblebee]] (redeco)
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Fireburst Optimus Prime]] (redeco)
*[[Rampage (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Rampage]]
*[[Ravage (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Ravage]]

'''Wave 2'''
*[[Long Haul (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Long Haul]]
*[[Override (TF 2010)|Override]] (ROTF [[Sideways (ROTF)#Legends Class toys|Sideways]] redeco)
*[[Sandstorm (TF 2010)|Sandstorm]] (Classics [[Beachcomber (G1)#G1 Series|Beachcomber]] redeco)
*[[Hound (TF 2010)|Tracker Hound]] (Classics [[Hound (G1)#Classic Series|Autobot Hound]] redeco)

{{comingsoontoy}}

'''Future Waves'''
*[[Dust Storm]] (ROTF [[Springer (ROTF) #Legends Class toys|Springer]] redeco)
*[[Skids (ROTF)|Tuner Skids]] (ROTF [[Skids (ROTF) #Legends Class toys|Skids]] redeco)
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]
*[[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Scouts====
[[Image:TF 2010 Hubcap toy.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Backfire (TF 2010)|Backfire]] (Autobot Knock-Out redeco)
*[[Brimstone (TF 2010)|Brimstone]] (Decepticon chopper cycle)
*[[Crankstart]] (Decepticon Dune Runner redeco)
*[[Hubcap (TF 2010)|Hubcap]] (Autobot muscle car)

'''Wave 2'''
*[[Breacher]] (SWAT vehicle who fits on Sea Spray)
*[[Insecticon (Movie)|Insecticon]] (insect thing from movie)
*[[Oil Pan]] (redeco of [[Brakedown (ROTF)]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

'''Future waves'''
*[[Firetrap]] (Scattorshot redeco)
*[[Sunspot]] (Skystalker redeco)
*[[Windcharger (TF 2010)|Windcharger]]
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Deluxe====
[[Image:TF2010toy-RavageSeaAttack.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Blade Bumblebee]] (all new)
*[[Ironhide (Movie)#Transformers (2010)|Ironhide]] w/ drone unit
*[[Jetblade]] (redeco of [[Dirge (ROTF)|Dirge]])
*[[Ravage (ROTF)|Sea Attack Ravage]]

'''Wave 2'''
*[[Elita-1 (ROTF)|Elita-1]] ([[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia]] redeco, instructions for combination will be online)
*[[Hailstorm (TF 2010)|Hailstorm]] (he's [[Mindset]])
*[[Skids (ROTF)|Tuner Skids]] (redeco of ROTF [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]])
*[[Sideswipe (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Sidearm Sideswipe]] (new mold with guns instead of swords)
{{comingsoontoy}}

'''Wave 3'''
*[[Jolt (ROTF)|Electrostatic Jolt]] (redeco of [[Jolt (ROTF)|Jolt]])
*[[Terradive (TF 2010)|Terradive]] (Yellow jet)
*[[Tomahawk (TF 2010)|Tomahawk]] (Dark blue Apache helicoptor)
{{comingsoontoy}}

'''Future waves'''
*[[Axor]] (White redeco of [[Lockdown (ROTF)]] with a retooled head)
*[[Ratchet (Movie)|Rescue Ratchet]] (G1 inspired redeco)
*[[Fallback (TF 2010)|Fallback]] (a redeco of [[Brawn (ROTF)|Brawn]] with a new head.)
*[[Mindset (TF 2010)|Mindset]] (A retool of Hailstorm as... Mindset)
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Voyager====
[[Image:TF2010Payload toy.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Ratchet (Movie)#Transformers (2010)|Night Ops Ratchet]] (redeco)
*[[Payload (Movie)|Payload]] (yellow redeco of [[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]])
*[[Sea Spray]]

'''Wave 2'''
*[[Banzai-Tron (TF 2010)|Banzai-Tron]] (redeco of [[Bludgeon (ROTF)|Bludgeon]])
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Blades Optimus Prime]] (new mold with [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]])
{{comingsoontoy}}
'''Future waves'''

*[[The Fallen]] (Blue and turquoise retool of The Fallen with a removable face and a staff)
*[[Strafe (TF 2010)|Strafe]]
*[[Lugnut (TF 2010)|Lugnut]]
*[[Grapple (TF 2010)|Grapple]]
*[[Highbrow (TF 2010)|Highbrow]]
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Leader====
[[Image:ROTF-toy leader Starscream.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Optimus Prime]] with hooks and battle damage and mouth face
*[[Starscream (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Starscream]]

{{-}}

====Human Alliance====
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Jazz (Movie)|Autobot Jazz]] w/ [[William Lennox|Captain Lennox]] (shielded blaster becomes motorcycle)

====Battle Ops Bumblebee====
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Ops Bumblebee]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Activators====
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Bumblebee]]
*[[Megatron (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Megatron]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Optimus Prime]]

====Powerbots====
'''Wave 1'''
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Optimus Prime]]
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Stealth Bumblebee]]

{{comingsoontoy}}

===Roleplay===
[[Image:TF2010_roleplay_OpCyberSword.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] [[Dual Energon Swords|Cyber Sword]]

{{-}}
{{comingsoontoy}}

===Speed Stars<ref>The [[Robot Powered Machines]] range is being renamed, but while the Toy Fair ''Transformers'' press release rechristened the line "Action Fleet", the packaging at Toy Fair featured the name "Speed Stars". An [http://www.hasbro.com/common/documents/dad2613e1c4311ddbd0b0800200c9a66/45C7096619B9F3691067135C264C241F.pdf online instruction sheet] gives the name "Speed Stars."</ref>===
{{stub}}
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] Track Set
{{comingsoontoy}}

===Store exclusives===
{{Note|The stores that these are exclusive to are currently not known.}}

*"Sideways Sneak Attack" four pack includes:
:*[[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways (Deluxe class)]], battle damaged deco based upon his death scene.
:*[[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee (Legends class)]]
:*[[Elita-1 (ROTF)|Elita-1 (Legends class)]]
:*[[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia (Legends class)]]

{{comingsoontoy}}

*"Bombing Run Battle"
:*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee (Deluxe class Cannon Bumblebee redeco)]]
:*[[Grindor (ROTF)|Grindor (Legends class)]], desert deco
{{comingsoontoy}}

*"Desert Brawl Ruins" two pack includes:
:*[[Brawl (Movie)|Decepticon Brawl (Deluxe class)]], desert deco
:*[[Jolt (ROTF)|Jolt (Legends class)]], grey and blue deco
{{comingsoontoy}}

*"Rampage Among The Ruins"
:*[[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage (Deluxe class)]], redeco based upon [[TakaraTomy]]'s Decepticon Rampage Desert Combat redeco of Rampage.
:*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee (Deluxe class Cannon Bumblebee redeco)]]
:*[[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage (Deluxe class) redeco]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

*[[Devastator (ROTF)|Constructicon Devastator]] (Legends class), based upon TakaraTomy's green and purple "G1 Colours Version".
:*[[Scavenger (ROTF)|Scavenger]]
:*[[Hightower (ROTF)|Hightower]]
:*[[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]]
:*[[Mixmaster (ROTF)|Mixmaster]]
:*[[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage]]
:*[[Scrapper (ROTF)|Scrapper]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://toyfair10.asmzine.com/gallery/hasbro/hasbro-transformers-press-kit/index.html ASMZine.com's Toy Fair 2010 Hasbro Transformers press kit gallery]
*[http://toyfair10.asmzine.com/gallery/hasbro/hasbro-transformers/index.html ASMZine.com's Toy Fair 2010 Transformers booth gallery]

[[Category:Live-action film series]]
[[Category:Toys]]

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T14:38:12Z

72.128.51.130: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.
::::::::(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter ''isn't'' canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation, and it looks like to me you're misunderstanding the definition of authorial intent. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. And let's face it, backpedaling at the point they are at right now isn't a good idea by any stretch of the standard. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::::I consider actual fiction canon, then authorial intent from the people who actually wrote the fiction for things that don't contradict canon. And the fact that Trion is not a historian and there's no Vector Sigma IS canon for Animated. Like I said, if Hasbro actually cared about the matter they could very very easily have made Isenberg write something in somewhere and removed all doubt, or told the creators to stop making untrue statements.
::::::::::Plus, it's not the existence of the 13 that's the problem, it's the idea of the singularity nonsense that's the problem. So far Hasbro's ''never'' said a single thing about that. All the info has been about ''the 13'' and has been related to TF: Prime; I haven't heard anything about singularities, unless there's BotCon news that wasn't reported.
::::::::::(And "official call" makes no sense. If anything, the opposite: all we've gotten is from FunPub fiction/writers, and FunPub's editor flatly said that the Movieverse, at least, is separate from FunPub's take. Meanwhile, IDW, the Movies, and Animated all have canon and statements flatly going against the singularity, and Hasbro's current statements have been about TF: Prime, not TF as a whole. So I don't get why people claim Hasbro's pushing the singularity when I've never seen a statement from them about it and they keep approving fiction that contradicts it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:36, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::::::::: Here's the problem. Hasbro HAS said officially that all the 13 are Multiversal Singularities. And they HAVE said A3 is a 13er. That's canon. That's what the wiki needs to go by. Nothing personal, but it doesn't matter what you personnally think about Authoral Intent. How like canon you make it in your own mind/fanon. That is NOT canon. It can be interesting. It can be worth mentioning on the wiki. But it is NOT CANON until it appears officially approved by Hasbro somwhere. So going by what's official the pages really need to be merged. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 06:38, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::No, they have not said that. The only thing I've ever seen about multiversal singularities has, like I said, come from FunPub writers and fiction. And, like I said, it's been stated directly by FunPub that at least one continuity is separate from what FunPub does. Like I also said, everything Hasbro has said about the Thirteen has only mentioned a single continuity: Exodus/TF: Prime; they haven't said the Thirteen are singularities. And, like I also also said, it's not just authorial intent but actual canon in the fiction that has contradicted the singularity idea. Fiction that was approved by Hasbro, I might add.
:::::::::::::It's you folks claiming that Hasbro is supposedly pushing the singularity that are ignoring canon and what Hasbro actually has and hasn't said. Not only that, but you are actually also going by authorial intent. In fact, you're being worse about it than I am, since you're going by authorial intent of people who have nothing to do with writing the continuities in question!
:::::::::::::So, to the contrary, going by what's official there's no reason to merge at all. Trion is a Thirteener in some continuities, yes, but that's it.
::::::::::::: When Hasbro actually comes out and says that the Thirteen are singularities and we see some actual mainstream fiction saying so--and Hasbro made the effort to explain that Zeta Prime was "Sentinel Zeta Prime", so we ''know'' they'll speak up when they actually do have problems--then I'll concede the point. Until then, all canon, official evidence, and authorial intent from the actual continuity writers, that I've seen is to the contrary, which is why the wiki's stance bugs me so much. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:41, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Jeysie, you do realize that when we're saying "Hasbro", we're basically saying "Forest Lee", right? The guy who wrote both the FunPub coimcs and bios dealing with the singularity thing, and is also Hasbro's bio-writer. And who answered the Q&A question about singularities. Lee saying it is "Hasbro" saying it. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:59, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::And again, FunPub's come out as saying their fiction doesn't apply to at least one universe. And 99.9% of the time we don't let toy bios override the actual fiction, so I'm not sure why this case is different.
:::::::::::::::To me "Hasbro saying it" equals someone like Archer, who deals with more than just a single company's continuity or toy blurbs that often don't match up with actual fiction anyway. The whole Sentinel/Zeta Prime thing, for instance, was (AFAIK, correct me if wrong) commented on by an overseeing Hasbro person, rather than by a writer who writes for a continuity entirely separate from WFC's. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:17, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::::::::Did Hasbro know that that was the author's intent? If they never specifically mentioned those ideas, Hasbro would not have known "to put their foot down". I don't know one way or the other, but that is an unspoken assumption in your argument that needs to be examined. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:07, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I find it hard to believe that they had no clue what someone like Isenberg was planning on doing with the fiction. Especially when they've been shown to be perfectly picky about any number of minor details in the fiction, so why would they fail to worry about major ones? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:17, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Contrary to what you think, Vector Sigma DOES exist in Animated continuity (even according to Wyatt!). Read A3's Animated page. It's there. If you're going to argue a point, at least research it first. - [[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 10:38, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::::: IIRC, "A3 is one of the Thirteen" is originally a speculation (or, at least, not official) until the publication of ''Exodus''. Also, I think I agree with Jeysie's argument/point. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:48, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T06:08:13Z

72.128.51.130: fixing my spelling

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.
::::::::(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter ''isn't'' canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation, and it looks like to me you're misunderstanding the definition of authorial intent. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. And let's face it, backpedaling at the point they are at right now isn't a good idea by any stretch of the standard. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T06:06:23Z

72.128.51.130: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.
::::::::(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter ''isn't'' canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation, and it looks liek to me you're minsunderstanding the definition of authorial intent. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. And let's face it, backpedaling at the point they are at right now isn't a good idea by any stretch of the standard. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T06:02:27Z

72.128.51.130: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.
::::::::(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter ''isn't'' canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Thirteen

2010-06-28T04:53:44Z

72.128.51.130: /* Alpha Trion */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [[:Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|Here's the text]]. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta (G1)|Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Female 13 member ==
OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as [[authorial intent]] or [[pseudocanon]]. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Original Epic Warriors"? ==

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609] --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

==A Math Joke?==
I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: '''2, 3, 5, 7, 11,''' and '''13''' itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or '''1''', making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)
:Exploring that more; [[Prima]] is the '''first''' transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not ''named'' "Prime", but might ''be'' one?), [[Nexus Prime]] is made of '''five''' parts, and we also know of [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]] and [[Vector Prime]], and [[the Fallen]] was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the '''thirteenth''' of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a ''vector'' can be defined as the course or direction of movement between '''two''' points. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

== Exodus Info ==

'''SPOILERS for TF Exodus'''

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts?
--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.
:Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.
:A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.
:And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't ''that'' questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

:(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality
::::::Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil
::::::Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::Megatronus Prime is '''NOT''' the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
::::That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

== Toy Section ==

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

==Alpha Trion==
I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] articles? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I ''suppose'' it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in ''each and every universe'' eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. {{unsigned|173.71.105.23|22:53, 27 June 2010}}
::::::Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual ''canon'' as well, not just authorial intent.
::::::(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)
Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something ''big'' planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a ''worse'' way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into ''tremendously'' fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ''ROTF'' Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of ''Exodus''? --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

:::::: My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::: I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

::::::::Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Alpha Trion

2010-06-28T02:39:01Z

72.128.51.130: /* 13 */ new section

I've decided that Sig-Omega and UT Alpha Trion are totally the same guy. UT Alpha Trion's specific altered-version-of-G1-Alpha-Trion's-design is obviously directly copied from Sig-Omega. And S-O remains unnamed until after he stops appearing, so I could easily imagine Lee and Khanna not being aware, and assuming that this totally-Alpha-Trion dude is totally Alpha Trion. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

== Alpha and Nexus Prime ==
So, according to what I've read on the wiki, Nexus Prime's club bio states that Alpha Trion and [[Vector Prime]] split him and the Star Saber up. So is Alpha Trion supposed to be one of the [[Thirteen original Transformers|Thirteen]], or is this some other really old Alpha Trion from somewhere in the multiverse? {{unsigned|SFH|13:08, 27 December 2009}}
:We don't have any clue yet at this point. The bio just says Alpha Trion was somehow involved, with no real indication of ''which'' Alpha Trion it is, or what have you. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:19, 27 December 2009 (EST)
::It is as Jeysie says. This is why the links go to the disambiguation page. If we knew, we'd have pointed the link towards a specific one. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:25, 27 December 2009 (EST)

== 13 ==

All right, he's confirmed as one of the 13. Should we begin a project to merge the above articles, seeing as he's a singularity?[[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 22:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Ironhide (G1)/toys

2010-05-24T21:54:13Z

72.128.51.130: /* Classic Series */

{{factions|autobot}}
You have reached '''[[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]]'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s toy page!

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
*'''Ironhide''' (1984/1991/2001)[[Image:G1 Ironhide toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Sit on my face and tell me that you love me.]]
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''98'''
**''Accessories:'' "Static Laser Gun", gun post, 3 missiles

:Ironhide was part of the original assortment of [[Autobot]] cars released in 1984, transforming into a red Nissan Onebox Cherry Vanette and sharing his mold with the contemporaneously released [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]]. Ironhide splits when he transforms, with most of the rear section of his van mode transforming into a [[Onebox component|battle platform]], and the remainder becoming his rather misshapen, headless robot form. The robot can mount onto the battle platform, which is armed with a raising missile launcher and front-mounted "Static Laser Gun". Unusually for toys of this period, the Static Laser Gun can actually store when Ironhide is in vehicle mode, plugging into his undercarriage (although the missiles for his launcher and the peg required to attach the laser don't go anywhere).

:As with all his fellow Autobot Cars from that year, Ironhide's mold derived from [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Diaclone]]'' line, a series which was ''not'' about sentient robots, but rather human-controlled machines. The Ironhide and Ratchet molds are the ones that most clearly show evidence of this: in place of a head, these toy robots had chairs behind windscreens where the human rider would control the robot. The figures did include stickers to go over these seats that depicted a sort of robot face, but when Ironhide and Ratchet's [[character model]]s were created for ''Transformers'' media, they did away with all traces of the human-controlled design to give the robots proper faces and heads, ultimately creating the two designs which were the most far-removed from the toys on which they were ostensibly based.

: Ironhide was reissued in Europe as part of their "[[Classics (Europe)|Classics]]" line in 1990, and released in Japan from [[e-Hobby]] in 2001. It would be released again (and redecoed) as part of Takara's ''[[Encore]]'' series in 2007; see [[Ironhide (G1)/toys#Encore|below]] for details.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Ironhide/ironhide.htm More information on Ironhide at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

===Generation 2===
[[Image:G2Gobot Ironhide.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Not a Gateway.]]
*'''Ironhide''' (Go-Bot, 1995)
**''Accessories:'' Gun

: Part of the second wave of [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]] focusing on Generation 1 characters, Ironhide transforms into a silver Ford F150 Flareside pickup truck. Using through-axle construction for his wheels, he is compatible with most "Hot Wheels" and "Matchbox" play sets and tracks.

: The mold is a [[redeco]] of ''Generation 2'' Go-Bots toy [[Motormouth]], and was later redecoed into the ''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Spy Changer]] [[Ironhide (RID)|Ironhide]], the ''[[Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' Autobot [[Ironhide (Universe)|Ironhide]], and the second ''Universe'' incarnation of [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1995/Autobot/Ironhide/ironhide.htm More information on Go-Bot Ironhide at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|PowerMaster}}
[[Image:G2Powermaster Ironhide.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Both robot mode and vehicle mode at once!]]
*'''Ironhide''' (Power Master, 1995)
**''Accessories:'' 2 guns

: ''[[Power Master]]'' Ironhide was one of the last toys in the ''Generation 2'' line, and was only released in Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. Oddly, the Australia and New Zealand releases were in US packaging, complete with [[Hasbro]]'s Rhode Island address.

: Ironhide (barely) transforms from a grey camouflaged Humvee into a dorky robot. His main gimmick is his "Power Master" pull-back motor, which you use by pulling back on his motorized rear wheels, then placing one of his guns into one of the holes above the doors, which releases a catch and allows him to zip along a smooth surface.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1995/Autobot/IronhideEur/ironhide.htm More information on Power Master Ironhide at TFU.info]
{{-}}

===Beast Wars===
[[Image:Ironhide-bw-magnaboss-toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Yes, this Alien-faced monstrosity certainly screams out "G1 Ironhide"! Who could possibly think otherwise?!]]
*'''Magnaboss''' (Ultra, 1997)
**''Accessories:'' 2 guns

: Ironhide transforms from an elephant via a rather complex process involving numerous hinges and unfolding panels into a rather stumpy robot. Although dumpy, he is nothing if not well-armed: he has a flip-out spike at the end of each arm, and comes with two removable guns that flip out from behind his elephant mode ears, and which can be plugged into the holes at the ends of his arms. Ironhide is packaged with [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], and combines with them to form his [[Magnaboss]]. Ironhide forms the bulk of the combiner's mass, including all four limbs.

:The Magnaboss toy included no information about its three components beyond their names. In 2007, [[IDW Publishing]] decided to retroactively establish that the trio were the ''Generation 1'' characters of the same names, and included this revelation in their ''[[Beast Wars Sourcebook]]''.

: Ironhide was slightly redecoed to create [[Santon]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1997/Maximal/Ironhide/ironhide.htm More information on Beast Wars Ironhide at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

===Timelines===
[[Image:TimelinesIronhide toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Red, red, and also red.]]
*'''Descent into Evil''' (Multi-figure boxset, 2005)
**''Accessories:'' Fold out gun/radar energon weapon, BotCon 2005 pin

: A [[BotCon 2005]] convention exclusive, ''[[Timelines (fiction)|Timelines]]'' Ironhide was only available in the ''[[Descent into Evil]]'' boxset. He is a [[retool]] and redeco of ''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]'' [[Tow-Line (Energon)|Tow-Line]], with a newly sculpted head resembling his Generation 1 animation model. Like his original toy, Ironhide splits from a van into a robot mode and a [[Onebox component|battle sled]], each featuring [[powerlinx]] ports that allow them to combine with any other compatible Deluxe or Mega from the ''Energon'' toyline; Ironhide himself forms the "torso" in such a combination (armed with small guns that flip out from his feet to become over-shoulder blasters), while his battle sled becomes the "legs" for another robot. Because of his unusual design, Ironhide can powerlinx with his own battle sled. Ironhide is armed with a translucent blue [[Energon weapon]] that can fit in his fist in robot mode, mount on his battle sled, and transform into a radar array to mount on top of his van mode.

: Ironhide's retooled mold was also used for ''Timelines'' [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Autobot/BCIronhide/ironhide.htm More information on Timelines Ironhide at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Attacktix===
*'''Ironhide''' (Booster, 2007)
{{charstubtoys}}
{{canceledtoy}}

===Encore===

[[Image:Encoretoy-Ironhidewithhead.jpg|right|thumb|His head problem just became a shoulders problem.]]
*'''Ironhide''' (2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''05'''
**''Accessories:'' "Static Laser Gun", gun post, 3 missiles

: Ironhide's original Generation 1 toy was made available again in mid-December 2007 as part of Takara's ongoing ''[[Encore]]'' line of [[Generation 1 reissues|reissues]]. This version was distinguished by the inclusion of a "head" of sorts for the figure: one of the toy's box flaps featured an illustration of Ironhide's cartoon-design head and chest windshield which could be punched out along its perforated edges, and then slotted behind the toy's windshield. This hid the "chair-face" of the original toy and gave Ironhide his cartoon face... at the cost of making his arms appear to grow out of his waist.

:This version of the toy was [[retool]]ed to add a pair of "clips" to the [[Onebox component|mobile platform's]] gun-base, designed to keep Ironhide more securely attached when riding it. However, these clips are right where a pair of decals normally go. Additionally, like the original Japanese release of the figure (but [[for safety reasons|unlike Hasbro's version]]), the missile launcher now fires.
{{-}}
{{anchor|black}}
[[Image:G1toy protect black ironhide.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Protect Black Ironhide''' (2008)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''05'''
**''Accessories:'' "Static Laser Gun", gun post, 3 missiles

:Tied in to Ironhide's ''Encore'' reissue was e-Hobby's [[exclusive]] "New Year Special" [[redeco]] of the figure: Protect Black Ironhide. The toy was priced at 4725 yen, and pere-orders were taken until [[January 11|January 11th]] 2008, with a shipping date of April 2008.

:The new [[bio]] accompanying the release of the toy notes that Ironhide acquired this protective black coating to disguise himself from both Decepticons and members of the [[human]] criminal underworld, to better allow him to do his job as Optimus Prime's bodyguard. The other Autobots joke that he looks like a stereotypical "Men in Black" vehicle, but Ironhide insists he got the idea from black pickups trucks he saw around town. The coating, a composite gel metal, has made his trithyllium steel skin even more durable, allowing him to self-repair minor injuries right away, and his robot and mobile artillery forms are now 25% more maneuverable than before. The bio also gives a name to the "mode" that consists of Ironhide standing atop his artillery platform, dubbing it his "Marauder Mode".

:[http://www.e-hobby.co.jp/cgi-bin/omc?port=33301&tno=11964126283JGBV&req=PRODUCT&code=tfe27 According to e-Hobby], the black coloration is meant to [[homage]] the original ''Diaclone'' toy which became Ironhide, but between the release of Emergency Green Ratchet and the bio's reference to black pickups trucks, it's easy to see this is also an homage to [[Ironhide (Movie)|the new live-action movie Ironhide]]. The packaging is the same as the regular TF Encore Ironhide's.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Cybertron/ProtectBlackIronhide/ironhide.htm More information on Protect Black Ironhide at TFU.info]''

===Universe (2008)===
====Classic Series====
*'''Ironhide''' (Deluxe, 2008)[[Image:Universe 2008 Ironhide Toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Hey, I found my head!]]
**''Accessories'': Converting Cannon

: As the first new-mold Ironhide toy designed to resemble the original character, ''Universe'' Ironhide transforms into a red SUV. He is armed with a double-ended "Converting Cannon" weapon, which fits over his fist and deploys a translucent melee blade from one end, and a gatling cannon from the other, meant to emulate Ironhide's arm-mounted "[[water gun]]" weapon from Generation 1 fiction. His chest features an [[Automorph]]-like gimmick that sees mechanical detailing raise up behind his chestplate when his bumper is lowered. He has an [[Oregon]] license plate, and was the first new ''Universe'' figure to have [[package art]] that wasn't burdened with [[dull surprise]].

:Ironhide is not without a few problems. Pictures of a hand-painted prototype of the toy released by Hasbro showed Ironhide with silver paint on his wheels and face, but when the finished figure was released, this silver has disappeared: his wheels were left unpainted, and his face was now the same light blue as his painted windows (which, in turn, matched very poorly with the translucent plastic used for the rest of his windows). Later releases of the figure featured a [[running change]] that saw the face painted in the correct silver.

:There is also an engineering defect in the figure. Due to a combination of three places on the figure having too much plastic, Ironhide's head does not rise enough and it ends up looking like he's hanging his head in shame. However, with a bit of tinkering, the head can be raised to a more level, straight position[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/transtopia-fix-universe-20-ironhides-low-self-esteem/14298/]. We're honestly surprised nobody picked up on them during the developmental phase of production.

: This mold was retooled to make ''Universe'' and ''[[Henkei]]'' [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], surprising absolutely no one.
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/TFUIronhide/ironhide.htm More information on Universe Ironhide at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Henkei! Henkei!===
[[Image:Henkei Ironhide toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|He still has the head, and the stripe too.]]
*'''Ironhide''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''C-11'''
**''Accessories'': Converting Cannon

:''[[Henkei! Henkei! (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]] Transformers'' Ironhide is a redeco of ''Universe'' Ironhide, with a view to making him more accurate to his original [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]] appearance. To this end, some plastic colours have been rearranged, such as his now-grey shoulders, darker gray hands, and red forearms, as well as a generally darker shade of red plastic and lighter gray plastic. Additionally, the blue paint used for his opaque windows are a better match to his transparent blue windows than on Hasbro's ''Universe'' toy. As with all ''Henkei'' toys, Ironhide features [[Vacuum metallizing|vacuum-metallized]] silver for his headlights, brake lights and his Converting Cannon housing.

:Although the instructions indicate that Ironhide's weapon should be attached by flipping his hand to the side of his wrist (as in transformation) and fitting the weapon over the naked wrist, the hand can in fact be made to fit inside the weapon with some careful jiggling.
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Decoy===
[[Image:Ironhide decoy.jpg|right|150px|thumb]]
* '''Cybertron Hero Collection 22''' (Decoy multi-pack, 1985)

: In Japan, a red rubber mini-figure of Ironhide was available in part of a [[Decoy|massive multi-pack of similar mini-figurines]]. The number etched into his back is the sum total of his [[tech spec]] ratings, as these figurines were used as game pieces for a variety of ''Transformers'' board games in which this number had some meaning to how the game was played or something.

*'''Ironhide''' (Decoy, 1987)
**''Decoy number'': 7

: The [[Hasbro]] [[Decoy]] release of the Ironhide game piece is almost identical to the Japanese version, except the number on his back is a simple "checklist" number. Like all Autobot Decoys, he was a randomly-chosen pack-in available with the carded [[Throttlebot]]s, [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]], [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] and [[Technobot (G1)|Technobot]]s.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1986/Autobot/Decoys/Ironhide/ironhide.htm More information on Decoy Ironhide at TFU.info]''
{{--}}
===Super Collection Figure===
[[Image:Ironhide_scf_pvc.jpg|right|150px|thumb]]
*'''Ironhide''' (2001)

: A three-inch tall [[plastic|PVC]] figurine of Ironhide was available in the third "act" of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Super Collection Figure]]'' line. Like all the figures in the wave, it was available as both a standard full color figure and a colorless clear plastic version, one of each of which was available in a standard case of twelve [[blindpacking|blindpacked]] figures. Additionally, the full-color version of Ironhide came packaged with the left leg of the wave's collectable [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] "build-a-figure".

===Heroes of Cybertron===
*'''Ironhide''' (2003)

: Ironhide's ''Super Collection Figure'' PVC was released the following year by Hasbro as part of their ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line. Like all the figures in the series, Ironhide was given a [[light-piping]] gimmick by being cast entirely in translucent blue plastic then painted everywhere except on his eyes and the back of his head. Unlike the Japanese version, he was sold separate on a blister card.
{{--}}

===Hard Hero===
*'''Ironhide''' (2002)

[[Image:HardHero G1Ironhide bust.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Go, Simba! Join the circle of life!]]
: This cold-cast porcelain 6-inch tall bust was sculpted by Jason Ray, and is based very heavily upon Ironhide's cartoon appearance. A signed artist's proof version was available, limited to 100 pieces.

{{-}}

===Transformers - Mini Bust===
[[Image:DiamondSelect G1Ironhide bust.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Proof that EVERY Wave 1 Autobot had a shoulder cannon.]]
*'''Ironhide''' (2009)

:Released by Diamond Select Toys in 2009, Ironhide was sculpted by [[Mark Wong]] of [[Art Asylum]] and limited to 1000 pieces. This detailed bust is based on Ironhide's (you guessed it) cartoon/comic model, but with much more detailing and with elements of his toy design. These include his vehicle sled's missile launcher mounted on his shoulder, his wielding of his sled's static laser gun and his original Diaclone "face" being present behind his windshield. In addition to the missile launcher being removable his open left hand can be replaced with a hand gripping his cartoon pistol for two handed "chop busting."

{{-}}

===Robot Heroes===
*'''Ironhide and Kickback''' (2008)

[[Image:Robotheroesironhidekickback.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"Stop copying me!" "Stop copying me!"]]
:This adorably happy figurine of Ironhide is ready to pound his packmate [[Kickback (G1)|Kickback]] into metal filings. He features articulation in his neck and shoulders.

::*[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/RHIronhide/ironhide.htm More information on Robot Heroes Ironhide at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* The black ''[[Diaclone]]'' version of Ironhide was sold by [[Takara]] in North America as the ''[[Diakron]]'' "DK-2" Car/Robot in 1983, seemingly just a few months before he would be rebranded as a Transformer.

==External links==

*[http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Ironhide Ironhide's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

[[Category: Henkei! Henkei! characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]

Wheeljack (G1)

2010-03-25T02:48:19Z

72.128.51.130: /* Notes */

{{factions|autobot|autobotg2}}
{{disambig3|Wheeljack}}
:''Wheeljack is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Wheeljackg1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]! I built a machine that builds machines that builds catapults! Come see 'em!...Yeah, we can wait for Ratchet.]]
'''Wheeljack''' is his own worst enemy. Something of a crackpot inventor, a good half of his creations blow up in his face, and that's just if he's lucky. He's simultaneously one of the Autobots' greatest assets and problems; for every successful gadget he builds, there's one which requires [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] or [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] to put him (and his lab) back together. But once in a while he strikes gold, which has won him respect from even the Decepticons.

He is, however, not a ''complete'' nerd. As good as he is in the lab, Wheeljack is just as amazing on the road: there are few stunts he can't pull off, and he loves to show off his driving skills as much as he does his inventions. He is, however, a little less confident when it comes to [[flight|flying]], which he accomplishes using solid-fuel rocket jets in his forearms.

{{bigquote|It sure is nice when one of my inventions actually works!|Wheeljack on his track record|"[[Fire on the Mountain]]"}}

:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Invento''', '''Cric''' ("Jack", Action Master)
:''Hungarian name:'' '''Kerék''' ("Wheel"), sometimes '''Kormányos Jack''' ("Steering-wheel Jack", Yoho!)
:''Italian name:'' '''Saetta''' ("Bolt")
:''Portuguese name:'' '''Auto-Roda''' ("Auto-Motor", Portuguese comic), '''Motriz''' ("Wheel", Brazilian comic)
:''Russian name:'' '''Gonsheek''' ("Racer", cartoon dub)

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Generation 1====
{{noteukonly}}
Wheeljack was one of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]]'s crew who crashed to Earth 4,000,000 years ago and laid dormant until 1984. {{storylink|The Transformers (issue)|The Transformers}}

''Following the almost total defeat of the Autobots by [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] returned to the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] and began to reactivate the fallen warriors. Wheeljack was the second Autobot after [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] to be brought back on-line, so that he could aid Ratchet with his technical skills. He saved the Autobots from total destruction by remote-controlling Optimus Prime's deactivated body and using it to intervene in [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s attempted execution of [[Guardian (Marvel)|Guardian]], who had been booby-trapped with a nuclear bomb. {{storylink|The Wrath of Guardian!}}''

[[Image:Wheeljack-disintegratedcircuits02.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Don't worry! As long as you hit the wire with the connecting hook at precisely eighty-eight miles per hour, the instant the lightning strikes the tower... everything will be fine!]]

Wheeljack accompanied [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] on a mission to secure a fuel supply for the Autobots. He stayed in the background while Jazz forged an alliance with the human [[G.B. Blackrock]]. But when Starscream and Frenzy showed up at the unveiling of Blackrock's new anti-robot cannon, Wheeljack couldn't just sit around. He transformed and blasted Frenzy with magnetic powder, which buried the Decepticon in an avalanche of ferrous materials. Wheeljack was saved from an attack by Starscream when [[Circuit Breaker]] brought the Decepticon crashing to the ground. The save was unintentional, however; when Wheeljack thanked the human for her help, she turned her fury on him, blasting him into unconsciousness. {{storylink|DIS-Integrated Circuits!}}

To help boost the Autobots' fallen forces, Wheeljack installed the minds of [[Grapple]], [[Skids (G1)|Skids]], [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]], [[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokescreen]], and [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] into bodies that were created by the Ark. The minds were stored on the Ark for such an occasion. {{storylink|Rock and Roll-Out!}}

''Wheeljack was later an early casualty of a disastrous attack on [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] led by acting Autobot Commander [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]], though he was not seriously damaged. {{storylink|Target: 2006}}''

To give the Autobots some air (and [[combiner]]) power, Wheeljack designed the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]], though all but [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]]'s minds were incomplete and they almost killed a human. {{storylink|Aerialbots over America!}} Wheeljack later had to erase their minds and unfortunately, by this time, [[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] had implanted a [[cerebro-shell]] in Optimus that, while not controlling him, allowed the Decepticons to tap into the [[Matrix of Leadership|Creation Matrix]] to create the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]]. {{storylink|Heavy Traffic!}} It was not directly referenced, but it is assumed that he helped build the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] as well (which allowed [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] to create the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]]).

''Later, he aided Optimus Prime in a plan to temporarily fake his own death, in order to teach the Earth-bound Autobots to learn to cope without him. Wheeljack was the only Autobot Prime told of his plan, probably since Prime needed him to build a [[Facsimile Construct]] in his likeness to be destroyed. When Megatron did destroy the facsimile, even Wheeljack mistakenly believed Prime had been killed. {{storylink|Prey!}}''

[[Image:Wheeljack-mechanicaldifficulties.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Throw open the switches on the sonic oscillator, and step up the reactor power THREE—MORE—TRIANGLES!]]

After Optimus Prime died, the Autobots chose Grimlock as their new leader. Like Prime before him, Grimlock relied heavily on Wheeljack's skills. Wheeljack tracked down the missing [[Power Booster Rod]], {{storylink|Mechanical Difficulties!}} and supervised the construction of the [[Geothermal Generator]]. By the time the device was complete, Wheeljack was beginning to have serious doubts about Grimlock's leadership, noting to himself that their leader wasn't the brightest bulb in the box. {{storylink|Used Autobots}} By the time the Ark was repaired and ready for launching, Wheeljack was wondering if he shouldn't be helping Blaster out, rather than assisting Grimlock's efforts to capture him. {{storylink|Child's Play (issue)|Child's Play}}

These doubts soon grew into a covert rebellion, as he called in his old friend [[Sky Lynx (G1)|Sky Lynx]] to help deal with the situation. Wheeljack acted as the Ark's pilot, once it was spaceborne. He enabled the craft to overtake and capture the Decepticon [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]], who was under Blaster's control. When Blast-Off's passengers turned out to be nothing more than four human children, he advised the other Autobots that they could probably lower their weapons.

[[Image:Wheeljack-spacehikers02.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Welcome to my secret lair on Skullcrusher Mountain. I hope you've enjoyed your stay so far.]]

Wheeljack did his best to make the four humans welcome and comfortable, fitting them with customized space suits, but soon ran up against Grimlock's monomaniacal quest to bring Blaster to "justice". When Grimlock ordered the humans cast into space in hopes of drawing out Blaster, Wheeljack had Skylynx save them. Though the humans were safe, Grimlock captured Blaster anyway, and Wheeljack's attempt at subversion ultimately failed. {{storylink|Spacehikers!}}

Wheeljack was among the dozens of Autobots who gathered on the moon to watch Blaster and Grimlock battle for Autobot leadership, and subsequently came under Decepticon attack. {{storylink|Totaled!}}

Although it wasn't depicted, he was assumed destroyed by the [[Underbase]]-powered [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]; like most of his compatriots, he was not seen in action until the battle with Unicron. {{storylink|Dark Star (issue)|Dark Star}}

[[Image:Wheeljack-stilllife.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Alive.... ALIVE... ''IT'S ALIIIIIIVE!!!'']]

Grimlock eventually revived him with [[Nucleon]], along with the rest of the Autobots' deactivated roster. Wheeljack questioned Grimlock on the wisdom of ramming Unicron with the Ark and of charging into battle so soon after being reactivated, but Grimlock just told him to be quiet and fight, before shoving him out the airlock. {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}}

After the defeat of [[Unicron]], Wheeljack was with a handful of Transformers who found Optimus Prime's dessicated remains. He theorized that the Matrix energy unleashed by Unicron's destruction was somehow, just barely, keeping him alive. He mourned Prime's death alongside Prowl, Kup and others. {{storylink|Still Life!}}

[[Image:Wheeljack-endoftheroad.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Mein Führer! ''I can walk!!'']]

Wheeljack had a short altercation with Quake, which was symptomatic of the growing unrest between the two factions. He subsequently discovered the betrayal of the Decepticons, who had sabotaged the Autobot spacecraft before leaving the dying Cybertron. {{storylink|Exodus!}}

Grimlock saved the day again though, providing some stolen Decepticon cruisers. However, when they followed the Decepticons to [[Klo]], the Autobots were ambushed and nearly wiped out. [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] was about to dismember the crippled Wheeljack when he was saved by the timely arrival of the reborn Optimus Prime and the [[Neo-Knights]]. {{storylink|End of the Road! (US)|End of the Road!}}

=====Marvel UK future timelines=====
''Wheeljack survived the battle of [[Autobot City]] in this timeline, but was later strung up by [[Quintesson|Quintessons]] there in 2008, anyway. He wasn't seen after that, though [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] survived the same treatment, so Wheeljack may have survived. {{storylink|Space Pirates!}}''
{{--}}
=====Earthforce=====
{{earthforcefiction}}
''When [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] infiltrated the Ark to brainwash some new troops, Wheeljack was one of the deactivated Autobots he attempted to control. Wheeljack and the others turned the tables on Galvatron, subjecting him to his own dream bug technology. {{storylink|Perchance to Dream}} Back in action, Wheeljack felt somewhat out of place among the various [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]], [[Targetmaster|Targetmasters]] and [[Powermaster|Powermasters]] wandering around the Ark now. On a scouting mission, he and Prowl grumbled to one another about how they just wanted some good ol' fashioned Decepticons to beat up on. Obligingly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] [[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] and [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] showed up right then to stop the Autobots from finding out about their evil plans. Thrilled about fighting bad guys who weren't "MicroHeadTargetmasters with a Pretender shell", Wheeljack and Prowl tracked down the Constructicons' leader, Megatron, nearby, and learned of his plans to destroy Earth's atmosphere. {{storylink|Starting Over!}} While Wheeljack distracted [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] and the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]], Prowl leapt aboard the "atmo rocket" and knocked it off course, saving the planet. {{storylink|Desert Island Risks!}}''

''Fresh from their adventure with old, familiar enemies, Wheeljack and Prowl both joined the new Earthforce team Optimus Prime set up under Grimlock's command. Operating out of a shuttle in the Canadian wilderness, the Autobots began constructing a larger Earthbase on site. Although the location of their base was unknown, the construction-in-progress was open to attack, and so a 24-hour guard watch was arranged. One dark and stormy night, Wheeljack was trying to keep warm on guard duty using a thermo-heating unit from the ship, but it overheated and started smoking on him. He knocked over a table and lamp while trying to shut off the device and attracted the attention of a polar bear, which ended up chasing him back towards the shuttle. To top it all off, he was jumped from behind by [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]], who had seen all the mess and mistaken Wheeljack for an attacking Decepticon. It was not Wheeljack's best night ever. {{storylink|Mystery!}}''

[[Image:Wheeljack-thelivingnightlights.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Bah. Warm, fuzzy nice-nice! What good is science if nobody gets hurt!?]]

''When a new thought-activated set of nightlights called [[Sleepfast]] was released to human buyers, Wheeljack got suspicious and tested the little items. He found not only the presence of Cybertronian technology in the devices, but also evidence that the thought-sensitive nightlights would eventually turn on their owners, allowing them to manipulate the humans' minds as well as read them. Wheeljack took [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]] to investigate the Sleepfast warehouse, and they ran into the mastermind behind the scheme, [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]]. The Autobots used the thought-activation effect of the Sleepfasts to will all several hundred nightlights on at once, temporarily blinding Mindwipe. {{storylink|The Living Nightlights!}}''

[[Image:Wheeljack-housethatwheeljack.jpg|thumb|right|250px|"Zhose are ze largest trousers in ze vorld!"]]

''Finally, Autobot Earthbase was completed, and Wheeljack called the entire team outside to witness his defense grid in action. Prowl was dubious at the lack of obvious protection, and so Wheeljack handed him the activation remote. Once Prowl hit the button, Wheeljack tossed a rock towards the base, where it was instantly obliterated by the retractable laser cannons. When Prowl expressed concern that someone could knock the defense system offline, Wheeljack assured him that once the defense system was activated, it could only be deactivated from a console inside the base. Prowl paused for a minute, took a head count, then turned hesitantly to Wheeljack and asked, "So who's inside with the console NOW...?" ''

''The response? "Oh..."''

''While Prowl and the other Autobots braved the defenses in order to reach the console and turn off the security system, Grimlock grabbed Wheeljack by the ankle and shook him out upside-down over the snow for good measure. {{storylink|The House that Wheeljack Built!}}''

[[Image:Wheeljack-makintracks.jpg|thumb|left|300px|From the tempest's fury, the spark ignites—to sire new life! Transmet—wait, we're getting a bit too meta here, aren't we.]]

''When Optimus Prime returned to Earth for an inspection of the new operation, he also brought back [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]]'s body for Wheeljack to reactivate in his Bodyshop. Grimlock was hardly impressed with the idea of bringing the vain and complaining Tracks back to life, and he tried to derail the process. Despite his efforts, though, Wheeljack not only revived Tracks, but Optimus Prime decreed that Tracks would remain with Earthforce instead of going back on the Ark with him. {{storylink|Makin' Tracks!}} Later, Wheeljack diagnosed Snarl with [[Corrodia Gravis]], prompting the Autobots to seek out the only compatible Transformer who could give him a systems boost: Starscream. {{storylink|Assassins}}''

''Wheeljack was last seen during the Autobot chase of [[Motormaster]], who had kidnapped their ally, [[Irwin Spoon]]. He abandoned the chase to check on Prowl after Motormaster ran him off the highway. {{storylink|End of the Road! (UK)|End of the Road!}}''

====''Generation 2''====
While investigating an apparent planet-wide genocide on [[J'asik]], Wheeljack joined [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] and [[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] on a science team in attempting to find out just what had destroyed all life on the planet so utterly. Their findings were so surprising, the team double-checked 50 times before confirming the results: A Cybertronian biological by-product had somehow achieved quasi-sentience and motivation, and was prowling the galaxy as the entity known as the [[Swarm (G2)|Swarm]]. The full impact of their discovery was cut short, however, by the arriving armada of [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] and his second generation [[Cybertronian (faction)|Cybertronians]], the accidental harbingers of the Swarm. {{storylink|Swarm (issue)|Swarm}} The battle with Jhiaxus kept the Transformers occupied long enough for the Swarm to find them on Earth. Presenting a united front, the Autobots and Decepticons desperately attempted to drive back the creature. Wheeljack cooked up a method of dramatically augmenting [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]]'s sonic powers, but while the Decepticon was consumed by the excess power pumping through his system, it seemed to do little good against the Swarm. Wheeljack's final fate is unknown. {{storylink|A Rage in Heaven!}}

===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Chris Latta]] (English), [[Osamu Saka]] (Japanese), [[Katsumi Suzuki]] (Japanese, "[[Attack of the Autobots]]" and "[[Day of the Machines]]" only)

[[Image:Cybertronwheeljack.jpg|left|thumb|Boxy but safe.]]

Four million years ago, on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Wheeljack was sent on a mission with [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] to search for any available energy that could be found on the drained planet. The pair located some energy [[conductor]]s, and Wheeljack transformed into his boxy vehicle mode so that Bumblebee could load them up, even though he didn't believe they would last a [[Units of time|quartex]]. On the return trip to [[Iacon]], the pair were attacked by a team of [[Decepticon]]s, but Wheeljack was able to break through their barricade of fire using his bumper-mounted cutting blades and then eluded their pursuers by heading underground. Despite their successful return with the conductors, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] decided to expand the search for energy to other planets. Wheeljack was among the Autobots selected to embark on this mission, but in mid-flight, the Autobots' [[Ark (G1)|spacecraft]] was attacked by the Decepticons and crashed on prehistoric [[Earth]], entombing all aboard in stasis.

[[Image:Mtmte2_fiftyninepointninetynine.jpg|right|thumb|220px|With this, I shall give my creature life!]]

When the Transformers were reactivated by a volcanic eruption in 1984, Wheeljack was reformatted by [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]] with the alternate mode of a Lancia Stratos Turbo custom racing car. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 1}} Soon after their awakening, Wheeljack was part of the battle unit organized by [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] to defend a [[human]] oil rig against an attack by the Decepticons, and used a fire-extinguishing mechanism installed in his forearm to douse the inferno that resulted from the conflict. Wheeljack next helped attempt to stop the Decepticon plot to overload [[Sherman Dam]], and then journeyed with the other Autobots in pursuing their foes to [[Burma]]. There, he gave Bumblebee and the Autobots' new human ally [[Sparkplug Witwicky]] a bomb that would collapse the mine the Decepticons were current raiding, trapping the villainous robots for good. Alas, Wheeljack overestimated his skills, as the Decepticons were able to escape the collapsed mountain with ease. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 2}} Wheeljack later participated in the battle to stop the Decepticons from escaping Earth aboard their [[Victory (ship)|new space cruiser]]. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 3}}

[[Image:Divideandconquer wheeljack cosmotron.jpg|left|thumb|220px|Ah you know what it's like Ironhide, there's always a few extra bits at the bottom of the box.]]

Some months later, when an [[antimatter]]-powered [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]] attacked [[Ark (G1)#Autobot Headquarters|Autobot Headquarters]], Wheeljack had just the invention to save the day: a remote control unit that would put Teletraan I in control of a Decepticons' body. Through the bravery of [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] and [[Chip Chase]], the unit was planted on [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]], and the Autobots used him to foil the Decepticons' plan. {{storylink|Roll for It}}

Wheeljack's mechanical expertise was put to the ultimate test when Optimus Prime was critically wounded by a Decepticon attack. With [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]]'s help, Wheeljack struggled to keep his leader alive, discovering that his vital [[cosmotron]] component had been damaged and needed replacing. A team of Autobots were dispatched through the Decepticons' [[space bridge]] to Cybertron, where they located Wheeljack's old laboratory and recovered a replacement cosmotron to save Prime's life. {{storylink|Divide and Conquer}}

[[Image:SOSDinobots_buildingSludge.jpg|right|thumb|220px|It's alive! ALIVE!]]

Upon discovery of [[dinosaur]] bones in caverns within the Ark's volcano, Wheeljack and Ratchet were inspired to construct robotic version of dinosaurs, resulting in the creation of the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]]. Upon activation, the behemoths promptly ran out of control and badly damaged Autobot Headquarters, until Wheeljack brought them under control with his [[magnetic inducer]]. Optimus Prime deemed the Dinobots too dangerous to continue functioning and commanded that the project be abandoned, but Wheeljack secretly persisted, developing memory components that would increase the Dinobots' intelligence. This bout of insubordination proved fortunate when almost all of the Autobots were captured by the Decepticons at the [[Great Falls]], prompting Wheeljack to activate the upgraded Dinobots and take them into battle to save the day. Wheeljack was willing to accept any punishment Prime would hand down for his disobedience, but Prime accepted his judgement had been hasty, and allowed the Dinobots to remain among the Autobot ranks. {{storylink|S.O.S. Dinobots}}

Learning of Decepticon activity in [[Peru]], Optimus Prime had Wheeljack and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] head for the [[Arctic|Arctic Circle]] to unearth the frozen Autobot [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], so he could carry the Autobot forces to South America. Once the Decepticons' plan to use the [[Crystal of Power]] as a weapon had been stopped, Wheeljack invented a device to cap the geyser of energy that had resulted from the crystal's destruction. Spike was a little concerned over whether or not the device would function, but it went off without a hitch, even surprising Wheeljack himself a little. {{storylink|Fire on the Mountain}}

[[Image:Wotd wheeljack meteorite.jpg|left|thumb|220px|Surpringly, the ominously glowing turd had little scientific value.]]

Wheeljack had his work cut out for him when the Autobots faced two simultaneous threats: a [[Meteorini Chipperoni|mysterious meteorite]] crashed on Earth, and when the Dinobots were left to guard it, they were tricked by Megatron into allying with the Decepticons. Analyzing a fragment of the meteorite, Wheeljack discovered it was wildly unstable and poised to explode at any moment. Working with Ratchet, Spike and [[Chip Chase]], Wheeljack developed two new Dinobots, [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] and [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]], and sent them in to defeat their forebears. The meteorite exploded harmlessly, and the Dinobots, convinced of their mistake, returned to the Autobot side. {{storylink|War of the Dinobots}}

When the Decepticons attacked a solar power plant on the coast of [[India]], Wheeljack outfitted the Autobots with hydrofoils so they could approach the plant from over the water. The attack was discovered to be a distraction when Wheeljack received a report from Autobot Headquarters that the Decepticons had struck there and kidnapped Sparkplug. Wheeljack was part of the Autobot team that raided [[Decepticon Headquarters]] and recovered Sparkplug, but he and Spike soon realized that there was something wrong. Sparkplug had, in fact, been made a mind-controlled Decepticon slave thanks to a [[hypno-chip]], as part of a plan to transport Cybertron itself into Earth orbit. {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 1}}

[[Image:Tud3_wheeljack_little_present.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Green Lantern's light!]]

The villains soon accomplish their terrifying goal, and the Autobots found themselves battling the natural disasters that the presence of the planet caused. Wheeljack called upon the Dinobots to aid them in their struggle, though first he had to convince them that it was worth their while to help. Seeking information about the Decepticons' hypno-chips, Wheeljack was part of an Autobot team who travelled to the orbiting Cybertron, though no sooner had they arrived on the planet than the smaller members of their party (Spike, Bumblebee and [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]]), fell through a trap door. {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 2}} Wheeljack and the others were unable to follow directly due to their size, but soon tracked their friends down to the Decepticons' headquarters and rescued them from an attack. The team took cover in Wheeljack's old lab, where Wheeljack analyzed a computer disk containing information on the hypno-chips that Bumblebee had stolen and developed a device to negate the chips' effect. The Autobots' test-drove the device on Sparkplug, and when it proved successful, they quickly returned to Earth and Wheeljack used it to liberate all of Megatron's slaves. Finally, the world was saved when the Autobots blew up Megatron's stockpile of [[energon cube]]s, blasting Cybertorn out of orbit. {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 3}} Wheeljack then helped repair the damage caused to Earth, directing the Dinobots as they performed some heavy lifting. {{storylink|Countdown to Extinction (episode)|Countdown to Extinction}}

Wheeljack was part of the Autobot unit dispatched to [[Bali]] to investigate reports of robot insects, where they faced the threat of the Decepticons' newest allies, the [[Insecticon (G1)|Insecticons]]. Wheeljack aided Skyfire by fixing his malfunctioning transform mechanism, and unsteadily taking to the air to back him up in an Insecticon dogfight. When Spike deduced that the Autobots' rubber tyres would protect them from the Insecticons' lightning attacks, Wheeljack rode atop [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and Sideswipe to help send the critters packing. To reward Spike for his bravery, Wheeljack offered to make a him a "true Autobot" by designing a motorcycle transformation for him, but Spike decided he'd better wait until he was at least old enough to drive. {{storylink|A Plague of Insecticons}}

[[Image:Shockblastcannon.jpg|left|thumb|300px|I'm ok.]]

The sudden appearance of Megatron in the airspace of Autobot Headquarters was cause enough for Wheeljack to try testing his new [[shock blast cannon]], but the weapon simply blew up in his hands. As luck would have it, Megatron had not arrived to fight, but to challenge Optimus Prime to a one-on-one duel in accordance with Cybertron law. Wheeljack spoke out in favour of Prime accepting the challenge, as it would end the Transformers' war, but none of the Autobots expected the eventual result of the fight: Optimus lost! Wheeljack could not understand how Megatron had claimed victory, but Teletraan I soon provided the answer-Megatron had taken on the powers of all the other Decepticons, breaking the rules of the fight and invalidating its outcome. {{storylink|Heavy Metal War}}

When Spike was badly injured by Megatron and needed life-saving surgery, Wheeljack developed cybernetic attachments that allowed Spike's mind to be transferred into "[[Autobot X]]", a makeshift body constructed from spare Autobot parts by Sparkplug. {{storylink|Autobot Spike}} A little later, Wheeljack disagreed with Ratchet over which wire needed to be pulled to deactivate the Decepticons' [[Solar Needle]] device, but Optimus Prime put an end to the argument by yanking both of them. {{storylink|Changing Gears}}

[[Image:Immobilizer_wheeljack_immobilized.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Wheeljack: Master of the ancient art of Notmoveoo.]]

Wheeljack was among the Autobots who travelled to [[New York City]] to defend it against an attempted Decepticon takeover. The sight of [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] climbing the [[Empire State Building]] reminded Wheeljack of ''[[King Kong]]'', and he took a leaf out of the movie's book by sending remote-controlled helicopters against the [[combiner]]. Devastator easily swatted the craft out of the air, and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] consoled Wheeljack with the fact that Devastator had probably seen the movie too. {{storylink|City of Steel}}

The first tests of Wheeljack's newest invention, the paralytic "[[Immobilizer|Wheeljack Instant Immobilizer]]", did not go very well: first, the device's [[polarizer]] was damaged by an over-enthusiastic [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], and once it was replaced, Spike accidentally stepped on the Immobilizer's remote, immobilizing Wheeljack himself! Luckily the effects of the device proved temporary, and Wheeljack soon returned to normal. {{storylink|The Immobilizer}} His next invention, an anti-transfixation grenade developed to restore the other Autobots when they were frozen in their vehicle modes by the Decepticons' new [[Transfixatron]], proved much more successful. {{storylink|The Autobot Run}}

[[Image:Atlantisarise wheeljack and nergill.jpg|left|thumb|220px|From that day on, Dr. Wheel Jack was cursed to transform into a monster during moments of stress.]]

When Wheeljack was captured by the Decepticons' new sea-dwelling [[Sub-Atlantica]]n allies, their treacherous king, [[Nergill]], studied his systems and developed [[magnetic dysfunction ray]] that could disable Transformers based on them. When [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] was blasted with the ray, he tried to use energy from Wheeljack's systems to restore himself, but was caught in the act and stopped by Bumblebee and Spike. The duo proceeded to repair Wheeljack, who then called in the Dinobots to sent the Sub-Atlanticans packing. {{storylink|Atlantis, Arise!}}

After helping to free [[Quantum Laboratories]] from the control of [[TORQ III]], {{storylink|Day of the Machines}} Wheeljack attended the unveiling of the human-made ninja-robot, [[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]]. Wheeljack did not have a high opinion of the comparatively primitive robot, but once the Decepticons stole and reprogrammed it to serve them, Nightbird made Wheeljack eat crow by outsmarting all the new security systems he had installed in Autobot Headquarters. {{storylink|Enter the Nightbird}} Later, Wheeljack was among the Autobots fooled by Megatron's [[Optimus Prime clone|clone of Optimus Prime]]. {{storylink|A Prime Problem}}

To stop the Decepticons from drilling into the Earth's core and destroying the planet, Wheeljack invented [[dominator disc]]s that the Autobots planted on the individual [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], placing their combined form of Devastator under Wheeljack's control. The Decepticons were able to disrupt the disks, but this resulted in Devastator running amok, forcing the Decepticons to hand their device over to Wheeljack so he could combine it with his disks to restore Devatator to normal. {{storylink|The Core}} Soon after, Wheeljack and Ratchet had to work fast to develop an antidote that would negate the destructive energy of the [[Nova Power Core]], which had been consumed by the Insecticons and was threatening to cause them to explode.{{storylink|The Insecticon Syndrome}}

[[Image:Autoberserk_good_job_wheeljack.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Wheeljack's the dude.]]

Having spent some time trying to teach the Dinobots finesse, Wheeljack held a demonstration of his creations' newest abilities for the other Autobots, but unsurprisingly, it all went wrong. Optimus Prime decided that the Dinobots should train elsewhere, and they were sent to the recently-discovered "[[Dinobot Island (G1)|Dinobot Island]]". {{storylink|Dinobot Island, Part 1}} Unfortunately, the Decepticons followed the Dinobots to the time-lost island and began draining its energy, causing time warps all across the Earth that Wheeljack worked with Chip and Teletraan I to track. {{storylink|Dinobot Island, Part 2}}

Wheeljack approved of [[Grapple]]'s [[Solar Power Tower]], but sadly, Optimus Prime didn't. {{storylink|The Master Builders}} Prime ''did'' approve of Wheeljack's own next invention, the [[Negavator]], but so did the Decepticons, who made a few attempts at stealing it that ultimately required it to be destroyed. {{storylink|Auto Berserk}} Later, when a [[Heart of Cybertron]]-empowered Megatron badly injured many of the Autobots, Optimus Prime had Ratchet repair Wheeljack first, so the scientist could build a forcefield to hold Megatron off. {{storylink|Microbots}}

When the Decepticons framed the Autobots for energy thefts, they covered for their own past villainy by claiming Wheeljack had invented a device that drove them to evil. The deception fooled the people of Earth, and the Autobots were exiled from the planet, {{storylink|Megatron's Master Plan, Part 1}} but they soon returned to clear their names. {{storylink|Megatron's Master Plan, Part 2}}

[[Image:Dotd1_sparkplug_repairs_wheeljack.jpg|left|thumb|220px|He took mah jerb!]]

Instructed by Optimus Prime to dispatch an Autobot team to deal with a Decepticon incursion at an airfield, Wheeljack again had to convince the Dinobots to lend a hand. Soon after, Wheeljack and the other Autobots began to malfunction as a result of [[cybertonium]] degradation, necessitating that Spike and [[Carly]] travel to Cybertron to get more. {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1}} Wheeljack supplied them with a [[photon light]] and a two-way thumb radio and set them on course for his old laboratory. Despite some Decepticon trouble along the way, the two humans eventually succeeded in their mission with the help of the Dinobots, and Wheeljack and the Autobots were restored. {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2}}

Wheeljack was among the Autobots who stood by as reports on the search for the stolen [[Voltronic Galaxer]] came in, {{storylink|Blaster Blues}}, then later temporarily received the power of an invulnerable [[electrum]] coating {{storylink|The Golden Lagoon}}. Shortly thereafter, he had to help Sparkplug, Ratchet and [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] repair and restore a fleet of cars turned into war machines by the Decepticons, {{storylink|Make Tracks}} but was powerless to do anything when a space bridge accident hurled Optimus Prime and a small group of other Autobots and Decepticons to a world of alien giants. {{storylink|Child's Play (episode)|Child's Play}} Later still, when [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]] was injured attempting to protect heiress [[Astoria Carlton-Ritz]], Wheeljack and Ratchet recovered and repared him. {{storylink|The Girl Who Loved Powerglide}}

[[Image:Wardawn wheeljack fixes kronosphere.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Wheeljack, the colour of gold, is gold. That's why it's called gold. What you have created, if it has a name, is some...green.]]

When Wheeljack's lab on Cybertron was raided by the Decepticons, a mysterious piece of old technology he had kept stored there was carried back to Earth by [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]], who wound up crashing in a movie lot. The Decepticon fought hard to recover footage the movie studio took of Dirge and the device, but it turned out the joke was on them: after the battle was done, Wheeljack revealed that whatever the machine was supposed to be, it had never worked anyway! {{storylink|Hoist Goes Hollywood}}

Wheeljack was part of the Autobot team that traveled to Cybertron to stop Megatron from using the mega-computer [[Vector Sigma]] to bring his new [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]] to life, but they failed. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1}} To combat the Stunticons, Wheeljack helped [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]] rebuild some aircraft into the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]]. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2}} Only a few weeks later, Wheeljack had to returned to Cybertron to repair the damaged [[Kronosphere]] time machine and rescue the Aerialbots when the Decepticons attempted to trap them in the past. {{storylink|War Dawn}}

[[Image:Teurox wheeljack vs motormaster.jpg|left|thumb|220px]]

Learning that racing driver [[Auggie Cahnay (G1)|Auggie Cahnay]] would be test-driving a car made from a new experimental alloy in the upcoming [[Europa 2000]] race, Optimus Prime sent a contingent of Autobots, including Wheeljack, to participate in the race and protect Augie from any possible Decepticon interference. Wheeljack was thoroughly enjoying himself until the Stunticons joined the race, and he was crushed under [[Motormaster]]'s wheels in [[Turkey]]. {{storylink|Trans-Europe Express}}

When the [[Cosmic Rust (disease)|Cosmic Rust]] plague threatened the Autobots, Wheeljack proposed using the [[matter duplicator]] to create more of [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]'s anti-corrosive [[corrostop]]. Two problems faced the scientific duo, however: the matter duplicator didn't work, and they were out of corrostop! Working tirelessly (and with a few swift kicks to the machine for good measure), the pair got the matter duplicator functioning, and the Autobots recovered some corrostop from the [[Statue of Liberty]] to duplicate and save themselves. {{storylink|Cosmic Rust (episode)|Cosmic Rust}}

[[Image:Masquerade_wheeljack_stolen_tech.jpg|right|thumb|220px|So, you ''want'' me to make it blow up this time?]]

During the Stunticons' latest rampage, Wheeljack used Teletraan I to pinpoint the location of the five Decepticons, and the Autobots quickly rounded them up. Examining the components the Stunticons had stolen, Wheeljack speculated that Megatron was making yet another super-weapon. A team of five Autobots disguised themselves as the Stunticons, and delivered a substitute ruby modified by Wheeljack to Megatron, which caused the new laser cannon it was installed within to explode. {{storylink|Masquerade}}

For his final recorded adventure in the 20th century, Wheeljack helped defend Autobot Headquarters against an attack from the Decepticons' [[orbit disruptor cannon]], using his gyro-inhibitor to prematurely detonate missiles launched by [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]]. {{storylink|B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.}}

[[Image:Windcharger wheeljack otp.jpg|left|220px|thumb|Inventor, uh...reinvent thyself.]]

Over the course of the next twenty years, the Decepticons turned away from Earth and focused on entirely conquering Cybertron. The Autobots were forced off the planet, and constructed [[Autobot City]] on Earth to serve as their new home. Wheeljack ultimately met his end defending this city in the year 2005, when the Decepticons launched [[Battle of Autobot City|an overwhelming attack on it]]. His body was seen lying alongside a missile launcher as [[Arcee (G1)| Arcee]] laid [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]]'s equally-lifeless shell alongside him. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}}

Although his name was not specifically listed among those interred there, Wheeljack's body was presumably laid to rest on the deep-space mausoleum the Autobots created to serve as the final resting place for their fallen. If so, Wheeljack's body would have been lost for good when the mausoleum was destroyed in 2006 as part of a [[Quintesson]] plot. {{storylink|Dark Awakening}}
{{-}}

====Japanese cartoon continuity====
{{note|The events of the Generation 1 cartoon occur in Japanese continuity as noted above, aside from one notable alteration: Wheeljack does not die during ''The Transformers: The Movie''. The character reappears in several pieces of media that take place after the events of the movie, in important capacities that can't merely be written off as animation errors. This was not an issue to Japanese audiences originally, as the movie was not released in Japan until a few years later, after the most significant of these extra appearances (in the ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'' cartoon), but it created something of a retroactive error that would later be addressed in passing in ''[[Alternators|Binaltech]]'' fiction. Read on for details!}}

=====e-Hobby pack-in comic=====

[[Image:Ehobbymanga_wheeljack.jpg|right|thumb]]

During a Decepticon assault on Autobot Headquarters, Wheeljack co-ordinated the Autobot counterattack from inside the base, instructing Brawn to back up Hound. When the other Decepticons were defeated, Brawn and Hound ran to back up Optimus Prime, who was battling Megatron and had just landed a powerful blow on the Decepticon leader. Wheeljack scanned Megatron's damage, and discovered that his internal balancer had gone offline...but he could never have predicted that this would result in Megatron's systems releasing a sudden [[quantum surge|surge of quantum energy]] that restored and super-charged him! {{storylink|Decepticon Leader Megatron Black Ver.}}

=====''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers'' comic=====

[[Image:Srlf manga1 wheeljack trailbreaker sideswipe prime.jpg|left|thumb|300px|We have streaky anime lines!]]

When the Decepticons began turning their attention towards [[Japan]] in the late 1980s, Wheeljack was part of an Autobot team who traveled to [[Tokyo]] to defend it against an attack by the [[Seeker (body-type)|Decepticon jets]] and the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]]. Following the advice of a local boy that they befriended named [[Kenji]], the Autobots were able to take out the Decepticons by using a broken section of freeway as a ramp to gain height on their enemies; Wheeljack landed a good hit on [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] in the process. {{storylink|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers issue 1|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers #1}}

In response to the increasing number of Decepticon attacks on Japan, the Autobots set up a secondary headquarters in the country. Wheeljack was among the Autobots later seen staffing the base and welcoming Kenji on his first visit there. {{storylink|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers issue 4|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers #4}}
{{-}}

=====''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers'' story pages=====

Along with his fellow Autobots who could turn into sport and race cars, Wheeljack participated in a race across the desert. Little did he know, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] was aware of the race and ambushed the Autobots inside a narrow gorge. Wheeljack and the other race car Transformers were unable to retaliate because their vehicle modes could not brave the rough, desert terrain. Luckily for them, [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] arrived in his rugged Jeep mode and smashed Soundwave's chest window. {{storylink|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers (story page)|Anime Theater 2: Sic 'em, Hound!}}

=====Full Throttle Scramble Power!=====
Wheeljack was stationed at [[Metroplex (G1)|Scramble City]] when the Decepticons began terrorizing the world with their [[Omega Whip]]. To make matters worse, the Stunticons began a fierce rampage, and Wheeljack was among the Autobots who advised against the Aerialbots battling them alone. Optimus Prime disagreed, and off they went. Soon after, Wheeljack joined in an attack on the Decepticons' headquarters, but was clobbered by a Decepticon jet. {{storylink|Full Throttle Scramble Power!}}

=====''The Stargate Battles''=====

[[Image:Stargatebattles wheeljack.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Wheeljack watches C-X's brutal rampage and considers both the moral and philosophical ramifications of giving it a bigger gun.]]

In the 1990s, continued interaction between the Autobots and the government of the United States led to the development of an interstellar teleportation system known as "[[Warp Gate|the Trigger]]". Wheeljack joined Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Bumblebee, Jazz and Hound in a press conference to announce the Trigger to the world, and even wrote the stirring speech that Prime delivered to the masses. Ignoring Jazz as he tried to keep them quiet during the broadcast, Wheeljack and Ratchet both agreed that the gun-like design of the Trigger reminded them entirely too much of Megatron. {{storylink|First Contact}}

A few months later, Wheeljack, [[Bluestreak]] and Bumblebee observed as Optimus Prime helped human scientist [[Professor Adle]] test his new [[C-X]] battle drone. Wheeljack offered some technical advice on how to increase the drone's attack speed, but that only meant more trouble when C-X started to run amok thanks to Decepticon interference. Wheeljack and his comrades tried to aid Prime, but he and Bluestreak were flattened by a single kick from the huge drone. Prime proved his might by defeating C-X single-handedly, and Wheeljack helped hold up his battered leader as he limped from the battlefield. {{storylink|Divided Views}}
{{--}}
=====''Story of Binaltech''=====
[[Image:BTWheeljack art.jpg|left|250px|thumb|HEAVY METAL RULES!!!]]
When the Dinobots were turned savage by a Unleasher attack in the year 2005, the Autobots had to take them off-line. Wheeljack headed to Earth to arrange the transplantation of [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s mind into a new body created from the "Binaltech" technology that had recently been developed in conjunction between the Autobots and the [[Earth Defense Command]]. {{storylink|Beast in the Machine}} On his return journey to the Autobots' moonbase, however, his shuttle was hijacked by time-tossed Decepticon [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], who had begun a plan to alter the course of history. {{storylink|Changing Lanes}} Wheeljack was shown a brief glimpse of the near future by Ravage, and bore witness to his own death, and those of many of his comrades, in the upcoming Battle of Autobot City. Wheeljack managed to escape, while Ravage himself promptly returned to Cybertron and exhumed the [[Kronosphere]], using it to tip the balance of the decisive battle occurring at that time. Whereas the outcome would have originally favored the Decepticons, leading to their total conquest of Cybertron, Ravage ensured an ''Autobot'' victory, altering history and leaving the heroes to face the looming threat of [[Unicron]] alone.

Aware that history had been altered, Wheeljack was faced with a dilemma: Should he stop Ravage's plan and restore the timestream, even though it would mean the death of many Autobots, including himself? His salvation, he hoped, lay in the [[Genetronic Translink System]], a device that allowed a singular [[spark]] to control many duplicate bodies simultaneously—if history could be set to rights and his "death" were to come to pass, he could still live on in another body using the GT System. Dubbing his original body the "Alpha Unit," he constructed the "Beta Unit" based on Grimlock's Ford Mustang body, as well as the mysterious third "Omega Unit," whose capabilities were kept a closely guarded secret. {{storylink|Project Bodyshop}}

The subsequent arrival of Unicron prompted the Autobots to initiate "Operation: Distant Thunder," which saw [[Skids (G1)|Skids]] use the chronal warp on Dinobot Island to send Wheeljack's memory data back in time, in hopes of alerting the Autobots in the past and preventing alteration to the timestream. {{storylink|Darkest Hour}} The plan didn't go as expected, and reality started to go into a severe state of whack, until a mysterious [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|black Optimus Prime]] appeared and sealed the time portals that had been created. Operation: Distant Thunder had succeeded in preventing the mainline timestream's alteration, but the Binaltech timeline, first destined to be replaced and erased, had been saved by the newcomer and was now its own distinct, divergent universe. {{storylink|Binal Time}}

{{Note|At this point, the original timeline was retroactively restored and the events of the ''Story of Binaltech'' diverged into a parallel universe. Skip to the next section to continue reading about the original timeline. Exactly how many of the preceding events related in this section, even prior to the divergence, occurred in the original unaltered timeline are unknown, but presumably, the data sent back in time by Wheeljack must have included information on his own approaching death and the GT System, which would explain how he was able to survive and live on to appear in subsequent pieces of fiction.}}

In this new universe, Wheeljack and the Binaltech warriors began facing new threats as the Binaltech project was declassified, and derivative technlogy began showing up around the globe. The Autobots battled the human criminal organization called the [[Concurrence]] and the Binaltech Decepticon named [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]], who had created a living [[electrum]] giant. {{storylink|Unfinished Business, Part 2}} Soon, Wheeljack helped bring an end to the Binaltech wars by unleashing his Omega Unit. The BT-14 Omega Unit functioned by connecting the laser-core of Wheeljack's spark to the power network of the entire globe, linking him to the living datastream of information running the planet. Through this link, Wheeljack tracked down all the splinter projects misusing Binaltech data, allowing Prowl and [[Earth Defense Command]] to seek them out and terminate the research programs. {{storylink|Unfinished Business, Part 4}}

=====''Victory'' cartoon=====
[[Image:WheeljackVictory1.jpg|right|thumb|220px|Um, that was my brother Jackwheel .]]

:''Voice actor:'' [[Shinobu Satouchi]] (Japanese)

In the year 2025, Wheeljack, Perceptor and [[Minerva]] were summoned to Earth by the new Autobot [[Supreme Commander]] [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]] to save the life of the fallen [[Ginrai|God Ginrai]]. Despite their best efforts, there was nothing they could do to save Ginrai's body, but it ''would'' be possible to transplant all his internal systems into a new body. As he would no longer truly be the same being, Ginrai turned down their offer, but then Wheeljack accidentally blurted out that there was a pre-existing design that they could use, piquing Ginrai's curiosity. The design was a combination power-up created by Star Saber, and Ginrai insisted on being reborn in this new body. {{storylink|Ginrai Dies!!}} Perceptor, Wheeljack and Minerva brought Ginrai's life functions to an end, and resurrected him in his new body as [[Victory Leo]]. As Victory Leo cut his teeth in battle, Wheeljack and Perceptor put their technical skills to use tending to Star Saber's own wounds. {{storylink|Fight!! Victory Leo}} and then installed a combination circuit in Star Saber's body. {{storylink|Awaken! Victory Leo}} This circuit allowed him to combine with Victory Leo to form Victory Saber. {{storylink|The Tide is Turned! The Ultimate Weapon, the Victory Unification}}
{{--}}

=====''Generation 2'' story pages=====
[[Image:G2StoryPageWheeljackPerceptor1.jpg|left|thumb|Umm... would you believe it was my identical cousin?]]
Wheeljack, along with Perceptor and Jetfire, discovered [[Reconfiguration Matrix|new properties]] of the Matrix which allowed Optimus Prime to revive himself as "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Battle Convoy]]" after a crushing defeat by Megatron. {{storylink|G-2 (story page)|G-2 Part 4}}

=====eHobby ''Generation 2'' storyline=====

To combat the Decepticons' increasingly aggressive energy raids, Wheeljack and [[Ga'mede]] worked together to examine Optimus Prime's new "blackbody" form, and duplicated it to create twenty-one new battle droids cast in the Autobot leader's image. These [[Eldedroid]]s were placed under the remote control of [[Flip Sides]] and sent out onto the battlefield.
{{storylink|MP-1B Cybertron Commander / Convoy Black Ver.}}
{{-}}

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
{{notekeepers}}

Wheeljack suffers from a mild form of [[mode attachment]], feeling more comfortable in his vehicle mode than robot mode. As a consequence he does his best thinking in vehicle mode, often while attempting something insanely dangerous.<ref>[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]</ref>

Wheeljack was part of Grimlock's unit, along with [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] and [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], at the time when [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] died and Optimus Prime rose to command the Autobots. When the Decepticons placed [[Iacon]] under siege, Grimlock took his group to [[Kaon]] to look for Optimus Prime, who had gone seeking Megatron. While there, they discovered [[Planetary engine turbine|planetary engine turbines]] that were providing power to a mechaforming process that was destroying Iacon. Arriving, Prime instructed Wheeljack to shut down the engines in a... creative way (it blowed up real good). Wheeljack grumbled a bit that all his education and mechanical engineering skill had led up to just blowing things up. The group managed to return to Iacon, where Prime halted his order to abandon the planet. {{storylink|The War Within}}

When Prime and Megatron disappeared during a [[space bridge]] explosion, Grimlock broke off from the Autobot army and formed the [[Lightning Strike Coalition]], taking his former squad members with him. While Kup and the Dynobots attacked the [[Predacon (War Within)|Predacons]], Wheeljack and Ironhide hijacked some shuttles carrying raw [[Energon (fuel)|Energon]], making Starscream very angry. That's always a plus. {{storylink|War Within: The Dark Ages}}

Wheeljack was one of the engineers that designed and constructed the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'', and part of the ship's original crew. In 1986, Ironhide and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] discovered Wheeljack in pieces but functional after an explosion while bug-testing his neutron detonator shell.<ref>Dreamwave's [[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]] profile for Wheeljack</ref> ''At an unconfirmed point in time, he was also responsible for temporarily transferring the consciousness of Spike Witwicky into a Cybertronian body, though the full story remains untold. {{storylink|Hardwired}}''

Wheeljack was among the Transformers involved in the ''[[Ark II]]'' disaster. He survived the explosion of their spacecraft, crashing back to Earth where he and several others lay deactivated and frozen within an iceberg until awakened by [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] in 2002. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 2|Prime Directive #2}}

[[Image:Wheeljack dw6.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Wheeljack calms a group of panicked humans by charging at them while brandishing a weapon.]]

Wheeljack participated in the assault on [[Lazarus]]'s Canadian headquarters. When [[Robert Hallo|General Hallo]]'s attempt to bomb the Autobots and the Decepticons out of existence instead caused a violent expansion of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s [[cyber-virus]], Wheeljack and [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] were the first Autobots to free themselves. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 4|Prime Directive #4}} While Prime took some of the Autobots after Megatron, Wheeljack diagnosed the nature of the cyber-virus, and created a set of anti-viral blasters that used the Autobots' energy to return the converted matter to normal. The intervention of Canada's military force scuttled that plan when they fired into the virus, expanding it beyond the point the Autobots could contain. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 5|Prime Directive #5}} In response, Wheeljack converted a nearby satellite dish into a giant anti-viral weapon, channeling all of his remaining energy into it. He succeeded in destroying the virus, but was left in deep stasis lock as a result. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 6|Prime Directive #6}}

''Several months later, Ratchet had successfully restored Wheeljack to operating status. He was one of the first Autobots Optimus Prime met back up with after escaping the [[Keeper (species)|Keepers]]' world and [[Las Vegas]]. While on patrol of the area, Wheeljack passed [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] travelling up the road towards the Autobots' location. He buzzed the Decepticon's position, and was surprised when Soundwave asked for a parlay. He claimed Megatron wanted a favor from Prime. Bemused, Wheeljack reported back to Optimus about the bizarre encounter, only to have his amusement turn to astonishment when Optimus Prime actually responded to Megatron's "summons". The two old enemies forged an alliance against the Keepers, and united their forces for battle in Las Vegas. During the fight, Wheeljack used his solid-fuel rockets to fly with the Decepticons [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] in the skies, acting as air support for the others. He returned to Prime's side in the final battle, when the Autobot leader used the power of the [[Matrix]] to divert the Keepers and the power of a nuclear explosion into another dimension. {{storylink|Annihilation}}''

Later, when [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] came to arrest the Autobots as war criminals, Wheeljack was one of the Autobots secretly left behind by Optimus Prime under Jazz's command. {{storylink|Brothers' Burden}} Like most of the rest of that group of Autobots, Wheeljack was beaten to the point of stasis lock by [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]] some time later and dumped into a nearby swamp. {{storylink|Night of the Combaticons}} He was dredged out by an [[Earth Defense Command|EDC]] task force and repaired, in time to rejoin the other Autobots when they started construction of [[Autobot City]]. {{storylink|Lost and Found (issue)|Lost and Found}}

===''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''===
When the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'' crashed on Earth millions of years ago, Wheeljack and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] were sealed off from the other passengers, saving them from [[Cobra]] when they found the craft in 2003 and reprogrammed the dormant robots for their own needs. Cobra's break-in activated [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletran-One]], who in turn brought back Wheeljack and Bumblebee. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 4|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #4}}

[[Image:GIJoevsTF3_Wheeljack_rams_twins.jpg|thumb|right|250px|]]
Disguising themselves as cars, the two Autobots worked for months to find and rescue the other Autobots from Cobra. After noting several attacks on energy plants, Wheeljack figured that the humans were gathering ingredients for [[Energon (fuel)|energon]], and had an idea on where their next attack would take place. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 2|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #2}} During Cobra's subsequent assault on the [[SPS Research Facility]], the Autobots intervened directly, with Wheeljack ramming the brainwashed duo of [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] and [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] (and apologizing). He then confronted [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], but the reprogrammed Decepticon fled as soon as Cobra had stolen what they came for. Having revealed themselves to [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] during the battle, Wheeljack and Bumblebee offered an alliance with the humans, who in return showed the Autobots a mysterious image of Soundwave they had found. Wheeljack recognized the text in the picture as [[Cybertronian languages|Cybertronian]], and that it contained directions to [[Cobra Island]] as well as instructions on how to free the Transformers. It took him only a few seconds to hack into Cobra's computers and undo their primitive human reprogramming. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 3|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #3}}

Wheeljack and Bumblebee then boarded a plane to participate in G.I. Joe's attack on Cobra Island, but the humans' higher-ups disagreed, planning to nuke the island and send the two Autobots to [[Area 51]] to be disassembled and studied instead. [[Duke]] regretfully incapacitated the robots with a magnetic pulse, but Wheeljack stayed conscious enough to overhear their plans and warn Duke that a nuclear impact on Cobra's energon stockpile would cause a chain reaction and send half the planet into a nuclear winter. With this revelation, Duke broke orders and went with the original strategy, taking Wheeljack and Bumblebee with him to Cobra Island. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 4|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #4}}

[[Image:GIJoevsTF6_Wheeljack_threatens_Mindbender.jpg|thumb|left|200px|]]
Upon arriving at the island, Wheeljack witnessed Megatron using the [[SPS Satellite]] to create more energon, and was enraged when [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] killed [[Hound (G1)|Hound]]. After helping take down the giant, Wheeljack patched through a message to all Autobots that the United States had decided to nuke Cobra Island despite having their own troops located there. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 5|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #5}} Wheeljack quickly improvised a plan to avoid a nuclear holocaust; using the SPS Satellite's solar-powered energy beams to shoot down the nuclear warheads before they arrived. After menacing [[Doctor Mindbender]] into overriding the satellite controls, Wheeljack helped G.I. Joe fight off a bunch of Cobra troops led by [[Storm Shadow]]. The plan was ultimately a success, and with the Decepticons defeated in the process, the Autobots returned to Cybertron aboard a new ''Ark''. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 6|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #6}}

Two years later, Wheeljack was zapped by a malfunctioning [[Teletran 3]] and transported into a random point in Earth's timeline. He was never seen again. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 1|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II #1}}
{{-}}

===''Transformers/G.I. Joe''===
Wheeljack was among the Autobots that lay buried on the [[Fera Islands]], only to be awoken in 1939 when [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] came to battle [[Cobra]] and the Decepticons. Along with [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] and several Joes, he rescued several chained Cobra slaves that had fallen into the ocean. [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] later reported that both Wheeljack and Hound had been killed in battle, but he was apparently mistaken, as the scientist was still around when [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]] was unleashed. Upon examining the giant, Wheeljack noticed that it was some kind of hybrid of human and Cybertronian technology, and most likely wasn't really "alive". When the [[Matrix of Leadership]] was destroyed in order to kill Bruticus, Wheeljack and all other Transformers present were deactivated as well. {{storylink|The Iron Fist}}

===''Transformers Legends'' anthology===
When a badly-damaged Starscream turned up on the Autobots' doorstep, Wheeljack argued strongly for allowing himself and Ratchet to take a look at the Decepticon's logic circuits, and possibly see if there was any way to make him a little less hostile. Prime eventually agreed, and when an amnesiac Starscream awoke and acted quite benign, Wheeljack seemed vindicated. Starscream even chose staying with the Autobots over returning to the Decepticons, however when his memories returned, he immediately fled back to his old comrades. Though Wheeljack was disappointed, Prime said it proved that the Decepticons were not beyond changing their ways. {{storylink|Redemption Center}}

===IDW comics continuity===
{{ongoing}}
In the time preceding the war, Wheeljack was a mechanoid as touched by the sacrifice of others as one could expect from this kindly future Autobot. It comes as no surprise then that he was front row at the state funeral of [[Kaon]] Security Service officers [[Fastback]] and [[Bumper (G1)|Bumper]]. {{storylink|Megatron Origin issue 3|Megatron Origin #3}}

[[Image:Escalation2 JazzWheeljack party.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Hollywood's latest spin on the buddy cop drama, Jazz & the 'Jack.]]
Wheeljack was part of a detachment of Autobots that has operated covertly on Earth for at least four years, attempting to foil a Decepticon insurgency. In his role as technical scientist and gadgeteer for the Autobot detachment, he built a device that could interface the [[SM-40]] palmtop computer with the systems aboard the Autobots' ''[[Ark-19]]'' spacecraft. {{storylink|Infiltration issue 3|Infiltration #3}} Wheeljack, like his fellow Autobots, would come to watch the showdown between [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and the [[Ultra-Energon|Ore-13]]-powered [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]. {{storylink|Infiltration issue 6|Infiltration #6}}

Later, after [[Escalation issue 1|the incident outside Lebanon, Illinois]], he and [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] were sent to investigate a [[Springfield]] police impound lot which supposedly held [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]'s remains. Unfortunately, members of the [[Machination]] had already arrived with the same purpose in mind, and attacked the bots wielding advanced weaponry eerily similar to their own. Wheeljack escaped mostly unharmed, probably because Jazz took a direct hit from a mortar meant for him. {{storylink|Escalation issue 2|Escalation #2}} Wheeljack would get his first taste of real damage in [[Brasnya]] facing down [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] and [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], {{storylink|Escalation issue 4|Escalation #4}} and eventually the drained form of Megatron. {{storylink|Escalation issue 6|Escalation #6}}

Wheeljack was assigned to work with [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] in rescuing [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], but yet again the Machination decided to interfere—this time in a confrontation with their army of experimental [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] [[Cloning|clones]]. {{storylink|Devastation issue 2|Devastation #2}} Wheeljack's constant tinkering paid off when he was able to escape the Headmasters using a [[gyro-inhibitor shell]]. {{storylink|Devastation issue 3|Devastation #3}} The Headmasters eventually caught up with them, however, and incapacitated Wheeljack by knocking a pile of junk cars on him. {{storylink|Devastation issue 5|Devastation #5}} [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]] arrived to retrieve Hot Rod and the others, blowing up a Headmaster that was attacking Hot Rod. Hot Rod refused to leave Earth though, wanting to see the Headmaster mystery to the end. Hardhead reluctantly let him go and took Wheeljack and Ironhide back with him. {{storylink|Devastation issue 6|Devastation #6}}

[[Image:AHM4BumblebeeWheeljack.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Bumblejerk.]]
A year later, Wheeljack had returned to Earth and joined [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s forces. After getting lured into a Decepticon trap and defeated, they were all dumped on the abandoned Cybertron to be finished off by the [[Insecticon swarm]]. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 7|All Hail Megatron #7}} When Wheeljack and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] were sent to try and find energon, the pair discovered their Earth modes couldn't handle the terrain. Wheeljack came up with an idea for a polymer to solve the problem, but Bumblebee (rather rudely) pointed out he lacked ''any'' equipment. A moment later, Wheeljack spotted someone following them. In a desperate but sure-to-work attempt to call in back-up, Wheeljack signaled their base with a pulse that would last only 1/100th of a second. Confident help was on the way, he cautioned Bumblebee against going after the stranger on their own, but the young bot, lacking faith in Wheeljack's rather brilliant idea, ignored him. The scientist was proven right, however, when Ironhide and [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] arrived! {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 4|All Hail Megatron #4}} It turned out their follower was Hot Rod, who told Wheeljack and the others that he was part of an Autobot team that had recently crash-landed on the planet. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 5|All Hail Megatron #5}}

Wheeljack and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] worked together to repair [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], who had been heavily injured by the Decepticons. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 9|All Hail Megatron #9}} When the Autobots were organizing a defense line against the Insecticon swarm, Wheeljack removed a cannon from the other team's [[Trion|crashed spaceship]] and modified it to be used as a mounted turret. However, since the cannon wasn't meant to be used like that, he warned [[Roadbuster]] that its power relay would probably burn out after only a few shots. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 10|All Hail Megatron #10}} After hitching a ride back to Earth on [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]], Wheeljack and the others battled Megatron's forces in [[New York City]]. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 11|All Hail Megatron #11}}

Three years after the defeat of the Decepticons, Wheeljack and the other Autobots remained on Earth, just in case the Decepticons returned. [[Skywatch]] had figured out a way to lock Transformers in vehicle mode stasis for capture, but Wheeljack devised a way to counter the inhibitors. {{storylink|...For All Mankind}}

When Optimus Prime surrendered to the humans following the death of Ironhide, Bumblebee was elected as the new Autobot leader, but was disrespected by Wheeljack. After being reprimanded, Wheeljack came across a message from Colonel [[Gordon Horiuchi]], who wished to work with the Autobots to capture Decepticons. Without consulting Bumblebee, he initiated contact with the colonel, and so received another reprimand. {{storylink|The Hanging Sword}}
{{-}}

==Commercial appearances==
Wheeljack was among the Autobots gathered around [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] when Prime decided it would be a good idea to not transform anymore. {{storylink|Commercial|Action Master commercial}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
* '''Wheeljack''' (1984, 1991)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''03'''[[Image:G1Wheeljack toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Do your arms hang low? Do they wobble to and fro?]]
**''Accessories:'' 2 shoulder cannons, 4 rockets, 2 wings

: The original Wheeljack toy, released as part of the 1984 series of Autobots, was based on a ''[[Diaclone]]'' Lancia Stratos Turbo. He comes with two rocket launchers that can fire four projectiles and two clear wings. In robot mode, the rocket launchers and the wings mount onto his shoulder and back respectively. For some reason, Wheeljack's lower arms/hands cannot lock into his upper arms, leaving them hanging at an angle.

: In 1986, he was made available as a mail-away item (as he was no longer shipping to retail shelves) in multiple offers, including [[Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction]] fliers packed with most boxed ''Transformers'' toys. He cost $8 and two [[Robot Point]]s.

: Unfortunately for many collectors, Wheeljack's mold has been damaged or destroyed, meaning his chances of future reissue looks bleak. The closest version of the figure to currency is the European [[Classics (Europe)|Classics]] reissue.

: A [[retool|retooled]] and [[redeco|redecoed]] version of the [[Diaclone]] toy was the basis for the obscure [[Decepticon]] "[[Marlboor Wheeljack]]".

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Wheeljack/wheeljack.htm More information on Wheeljack at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
[[Image:AMWheeljack.jpg|right|300px|thumb|At least I come with the Miami Vice car.]]
* '''Wheeljack''' (Action Master, 1990)
**''Accessories:'' 2 missiles

: [[Action Master]] Wheeljack is a non-transforming action figure sculpted based upon his cartoon appearances. He comes with the [[Turbo Racer]], a large red sports car based upon the Ferrari Testarossa that can seat two ''Action Master'' figures. The Turbo Racer has an 'attack mode' where it transforms into something vaguely resembling an aircraft made from car parts.

: The Wheeljack figure was later repainted into [[Slicer]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1990/Autobot/Wheeljack/wheeljack.htm More information on Action Master Wheeljack at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Universe (2003)===
[[Image:SpychangerWheeljack.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Where's your head at, at?]]
*'''Wheeljack''' (Spychanger, 2004)
**''Accessories:'' Gun

:This version of Wheeljack is a redeco of [[Spy Changer]] [[Daytonus]], transforming into a Le Mans racing car. He is cast in white plastic with mostly black paint. The toy has several stickers to represent Wheeljack's earlier Lancia Stratos colours, including his racing number 539. He comes with a small black rifle that can be stored between his legs in vehicle mode.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/SpyWheeljack/wheeljack.htm More information on Spychanger Wheeljack at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
===Alternators===
[[Image:BTWheeljack toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Mustang Wheeljack! You better slow your Mustang down!]]
* '''Wheeljack''' (2005)
**''Alternator ID number:'' '''13'''
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''BT-14'''
**''Accessories:'' Engine/"Laser-strafer rifle", "cryo-sword"

: ''[[Alternators]]'' Wheeljack is a retool of ''Alternators'' [[Grimlock (G1)/toys|Grimlock]]. He transforms into a 2005 (S197 chassis) model Ford Mustang GT, painted white with blue stripes. In vehicle mode, he features highly realistic styling, opening doors, hood and trunk, as well as a detailed car interior. In robot mode his removable engine becomes a double-barreled laser.

:The Japanese ''Binaltech'' release of the figure has a slightly retooled head (see image inset), different paint applications, and is partially constructed of die-cast metal.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Autobot/AltWheeljack/wheeljack.htm More information on ''Alternators'' Wheeljack at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Stamp Bot===
*'''Wheeljack''' ( 1984)

:Made by HG Toys, Stamp Bot Wheeljack is a small, non-poseable figurine of Wheeljack based on his toy with a rubber stamp on the base, and a cap with a felt "floor" that was soaked in ink. The stamp made an image of Wheeljack's race car mode.

===Decoy===
[[Image:Decoy_wheeljack.jpg|right|150px|thumb]]
*'''Cybertron Hero Collection 22''' (Decoy multi-pack, 1985)
: This small red rubber figurine of Wheeljack was released in Japan as part of a large multi-pack of similar figures, which were used as playing pieces for ''Transformers'' board games. The figure features a number etched into its back which is the sum total of Wheeljack's [[Tech Spec]] ratings, which served some function in the gameplay the figures were used for.

*'''Wheeljack''' (1987)
**''Decoy number:'' '''22'''

: The Wheeljack figurine was later brought over to [[Hasbro]] markets as part of the [[Decoy]] promotion, largely identical to the Japanese release except for the fact that the number on his back was replaced with a simple "checklist" number (22, in Wheeljack's case). Like all Autobot Decoys, he was a randomly-chosen pack-in available with the carded [[Throttlebot]]s, [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]], [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] and [[Technobot (G1)|Technobot]]s.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1986/Autobot/Decoys/Wheeljack/wheeljack.htm More information on Decoy Wheeljack at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

===Super Collection Figure===
[[Image:Wheeljack_scf_pvc.jpg|right|150px|thumb]]
*'''Wheeljack''' (2002)

: A three-inch tall [[plastic|PVC]] figurine of Wheeljack was available in the seventh ''[[Victory (franchise)|Victory]]''-centric wave of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Super Collection Figure]]'' line. Like all the figures in the wave, it was available as both a standard full color figure and a metallic silver "pewter" version, one of each of which was available in a standard case of twelve [[blindpacking|blindpacked]] figures. Additionally, the pewter version of Wheeljack came packaged with right "boot" piece needed to transform the wave's [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]] figure into Victory Saber.

===Heroes of Cybertron===
*'''Wheeljack''' (2003)

: Wheeljack's ''Super Collection Figure'' PVC was released the following year by Hasbro as part of their ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line. Like all the figures in the series, Wheeljack was given a [[light-piping]] gimmick by being cast entirely in translucent blue plastic then painted everywhere except on his eyes and the back of his head. Unlike the Japanese version, he was sold separate on a blister card and came packaged with the right arm of the [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] "build-a-figure".
{{--}}
===Hard Hero===
[[Image:Wheeljackbust.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Optimus Prime! I built a machine that removes legs and replaces them with small pedestals! Come see!]]
*'''Wheeljack''' (Hard Hero, 2003)

:[[Hard Hero]] released a polystone bust of Wheeljack, based upon his appearance in the Generation 1 television series. The tenth bust in their main ''Transformers'' series, Wheeljack is some six inches tall and was limited to 2500 normal copies and an additional 100 exclusively signed by the sculptor.

{{-}}
===Palisades===
[[Image:Wheeljackstatue.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Small, expensive, and puffy.]]
*'''Wheeljack''' (Palisades, 2005)

:[[Palisades]] released a 6-inch polystone statue of Wheeljack, based upon [[Pat Lee]]'s rendition of him in the Dreamwave comics.

{{-}}

==Notes==
* Wheeljack has the distinction of being the first Transformer to appear in the original [[The Transformers (cartoon)|''Generation 1'' cartoon]], and thus the first one to appear in any animated stories.
* The retool of [[Grimlock (G1)/toys|''Alternators'' Grimlock]] was originally planned to be [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]] (presumably in red), but ultimately ended up as Wheeljack instead, with a new head sculpt. Meanwhile, the head sculpt originally intended for Ford-Windcharger ended up being used for the retool of Windcharger (the Honda S2000 mold) instead, and now named "[[Decepticharge]]".
* Wheeljack was given an homage in the form of ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]]. Downshift has Wheeljack's colors, face, and even feet modeled after the Lancia grill.
* According to the Japanese ''[[Transformers: Call of the Future]]'' game, Wheeljack is significantly older than [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]], old enough to tell him to "respect your elders".

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Wheeljack Wheeljack's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternators]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Engineers]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category:Headmasters characters]]
[[Category:Mail order items]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Universe characters]]
[[Category:Victory characters]]
[[Category:Spy Changers]]

Tales of the Fallen issue 5

2010-01-07T01:14:02Z

72.128.51.130: /* Featured Characters */ spellcheck

{{comicstub}}

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=''[[Tales of the Fallen|Transformers: Tales of the Fallen]]'' #5
|prev=Tales of the Fallen issue 4
|next=Tales of the Fallen issue 6
|image=
|caption=
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[December 23]], [[2009]]
|coverdate=December 2009
|written by=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils by=[[Alex Milne]]
|colors by=[[Josh Perez]]
|letters by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|associate editor=[[Denton J. Tipton]]
|editor=[[Andy Schmidt]]
|continuity=[[Movie continuity]]
}}

'''Ravage is raised for a new mission.'''

==Synopsis==

==Featured Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)| Bumblebee]] (1)
|c2=
*[[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] (2)
*[[Rampage (ROTF)| Rampage]] (4)
*[[Reedman]] (5)
*[[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] (7)
|c3=
*[[Sam Witwicky]] (3)
*[[Barack Obama]] (6)
}}

==Quotes==
*TBA

==Errors==
*TBA

==Items of note==
*Rampage is colored red here as he was in the movie, instead of yellow like the original toy and the [[Revenge of the Fallen issue 4| movie adaptation]].
*This issue got written as IDW didn't know Ravage was getting killed until ''after'' he'd been made a key part of ''[[Nefarious]]'', and suddenly found they needed to have him come back to life. It was also originally going to be #6. [http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/next-up-%e2%80%94-transformers-nefarious/]
===Covers (2)===
*'''Cover A:''' [[Soundwave (ROTF)| Soundwave]] and [[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] by [[Alex Milne]]
*'''Cover B:''' '''Ravage''' attacking some soldiers by [[Carlos Magno]]
<gallery>
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
*TBA

[[Category: IDW Revenge of the Fallen issues]]

Tales of the Fallen issue 5

2010-01-07T01:13:35Z

72.128.51.130: /* Featured Characters */ as well as these guys too

{{comicstub}}

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=''[[Tales of the Fallen|Transformers: Tales of the Fallen]]'' #5
|prev=Tales of the Fallen issue 4
|next=Tales of the Fallen issue 6
|image=
|caption=
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[December 23]], [[2009]]
|coverdate=December 2009
|written by=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils by=[[Alex Milne]]
|colors by=[[Josh Perez]]
|letters by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|associate editor=[[Denton J. Tipton]]
|editor=[[Andy Schmidt]]
|continuity=[[Movie continuity]]
}}

'''Ravage is raised for a new mission.'''

==Synopsis==

==Featured Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)| Bumblebee]] (1)
|c2=
*[[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] (2)
*[[Rampage (ROTF)| Rampage]] (4)
*[[Reedman]] (5)
*[[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] (7)
|c3=
*[[Sam Witwicky]] (3)
*[[Barrack Obama]] (6)
}}

==Quotes==
*TBA

==Errors==
*TBA

==Items of note==
*Rampage is colored red here as he was in the movie, instead of yellow like the original toy and the [[Revenge of the Fallen issue 4| movie adaptation]].
*This issue got written as IDW didn't know Ravage was getting killed until ''after'' he'd been made a key part of ''[[Nefarious]]'', and suddenly found they needed to have him come back to life. It was also originally going to be #6. [http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/next-up-%e2%80%94-transformers-nefarious/]
===Covers (2)===
*'''Cover A:''' [[Soundwave (ROTF)| Soundwave]] and [[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] by [[Alex Milne]]
*'''Cover B:''' '''Ravage''' attacking some soldiers by [[Carlos Magno]]
<gallery>
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
*TBA

[[Category: IDW Revenge of the Fallen issues]]

Tales of the Fallen issue 5

2010-01-07T01:11:10Z

72.128.51.130: /* Featured Characters */ Reedman's in this issue too.

{{comicstub}}

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=''[[Tales of the Fallen|Transformers: Tales of the Fallen]]'' #5
|prev=Tales of the Fallen issue 4
|next=Tales of the Fallen issue 6
|image=
|caption=
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[December 23]], [[2009]]
|coverdate=December 2009
|written by=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils by=[[Alex Milne]]
|colors by=[[Josh Perez]]
|letters by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|associate editor=[[Denton J. Tipton]]
|editor=[[Andy Schmidt]]
|continuity=[[Movie continuity]]
}}

'''Ravage is raised for a new mission.'''

==Synopsis==

==Featured Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)| Bumblebee]] (1)
|c2=
*[[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] (2)
*[[Rampage (ROTF)| Rampage]] (4)
*[[Reedman]] (5)
|c3=
*[[Sam Witwicky]] (3)
}}

==Quotes==
*TBA

==Errors==
*TBA

==Items of note==
*Rampage is colored red here as he was in the movie, instead of yellow like the original toy and the [[Revenge of the Fallen issue 4| movie adaptation]].
*This issue got written as IDW didn't know Ravage was getting killed until ''after'' he'd been made a key part of ''[[Nefarious]]'', and suddenly found they needed to have him come back to life. It was also originally going to be #6. [http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/next-up-%e2%80%94-transformers-nefarious/]
===Covers (2)===
*'''Cover A:''' [[Soundwave (ROTF)| Soundwave]] and [[Ravage (ROTF)| Ravage]] by [[Alex Milne]]
*'''Cover B:''' '''Ravage''' attacking some soldiers by [[Carlos Magno]]
<gallery>
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
*TBA

[[Category: IDW Revenge of the Fallen issues]]

Subline imprint

2010-01-05T19:30:20Z

72.128.51.130: /* Subline imprints for Transformers series */ added ROTF's entry into this practice

A '''subline imprint''' is a partial [[Rebranding|re-branding]] of a [[franchise]]—typically with a sub-title reflecting a theme or gimmick running through the entire franchise.

Examples include "Battle for the Spark" during ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' and [[AllSpark Power]] for [[Movie (toyline)|the 2007 movie]]. United States airings of the second season of the [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|''Beast Machines'' cartoon]] were re-titled to feature the subline imprint - though not the Canadian or UK versions, nor any of the DVDs - while the "Allspark Power" toys occupy a loose umbrella story which occurs after the events of the movie.

==Game Theory==
[[Image:Retailbuyer decisiontree.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Bulk purchasing agents find re-hashed merchandise more attractive offered under a subline imprint.]]
Purchasing agents known as "buyers" make purchasing decisions for hundreds of American retail stores, making their best guess what products will sell and how many while trying to avoid being stuck with the dreaded "old product" ([[Shelfwarmer|unsold toys]]) when the toyline ends.

Buyers purchase many toys from early waves reasoning that even if the toyline flops these will sell ''eventually'' over the line's (hopeful) year-to-eighteen-month "lifetime." Toys in later waves (eight-ish) represent a higher risk because they have only a six month window to sell, and tend not to be purchased as heavily. As a result, toy companies spend less money developing later waves, often heavily featuring [[Redeco]]s and [[retool]]s, making them even ''less'' attractive to retailers.

For their part, consumers try to avoid purchasing the pegwarmers and shelfwarmers left over as a toyline winds down, but lacking the encyclopedic product knowledge known only to buyers, [[fandom|fans]] and small children, they learn to suspiciously avoid any packaging they recognize from the ''last'' birthday/[[Christmas]]/Kwaanza etc. (again making later-wave toys less attractive to retailers.)

A subline imprint refreshes the packaging for consumers (orange may become bright green in the same layout) while assuring the regional buyers that "No, seriously, this is a ''new'' toyline, you should purchase it more heavily!" Buyers aren't particularly ''fooled'' by this argument, but the re-branding is understood to be a sign that the toy companies have invested in these tail-end waves rather than filled them with junk, making larger retailer purchases a safer investment.

==Subline imprints for ''Transformers'' series==
*''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'': [[Battle for the Spark]]
*''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'': [[The Unicron Battles]]
*''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]'': [[The Powerlinx Battles]]
*''[[Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'': [[Primus Unleashed]]
*''[[Movie (toyline)|Movie]]'' (2007): [[AllSpark Power]], [[Premium Series]]
*''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'': [[NEST Global Alliance]]
[[Category:Subline imprint| ]]

Cliffjumper (Movie)

2010-01-04T02:14:13Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Cliffjumper}}
:''Cliffjumper is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:ReignofStarscream3 Cliffjumper.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"...But if we wind up in Carbombya, I quit."]]
'''Cliffjumper''' shoots first and asks questions much, much later. The only intelligence he's patient enough to gather is "[[Decepticon|Decepticons]] were here, and now they're dead." Despite his surly and impetuous nature, however, [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] seems to like him.

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance1_Cliffjumper_Bumblebee.jpg|left|thumb|300px|"Ya-ya know? I like you Bumblebee. I think you are alright" *hic*]]

Many, many years ago, Cliffjumper and his look-alike [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] guarded the [[AllSpark (Movie)|All Spark]] at [[Simfur]] from nothing in particular. Cliffjumper tried to get his bored friend to calm down when the yellow guy got anxious from just sitting around. Cliffjumper pointed out that, even though they were defense force material, they'd be just as bored in the defense force, just doing patrols. If anything, they should relax and let the action come to them.

Cliffjumper rather regretted his words, as hostile aliens attacked Cybertron, and the pair were quickly pinned down under heavy fire. Relief finally came in the form of [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], who quickly [[Slag (slang)|slagged]] several of the attacking craft. Megatron proceeded to berate the two Autobots for not doing a better job and not taking the fight to the enemy, but received a bad wound from the attackers. When [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] arrived, Megatron told him to keep [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus's]] team out of their way. {{storylink|Defiance issue 1|Defiance issue 1}}

After the battle, a panicky Bumblebee knew something ''big'' was coming, though Cliffjumper thought that they wouldn't have anything to do with it anyway, as they're only supposed to stand guard at the temple. [[Prowl (Movie)|Prowl]] and [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] came to investigate the attack on the temple, and Cliffjumper reported that they didn't notice any unusual activity from the All Spark during the battle. Later, presumably all the security personnel were present at the meeting where Optimus asked them not to follow Megatron into war. {{storylink|Defiance issue 2}}

After Megatron discovered that Optimus, Prowl and Jazz had been snooping about in his quarters, he sent Cliffjumper and Bumblebee along with other expendable security officers under Prowl's command to arrest Optimus on trumped-up charges of treason. What the officers didn't know was they were all marked for death, and on the trip to Trypticon, the group was attacked by soldiers loyal to Megatron. The group managed to escape to [[Burthov]] while Optimus stayed behind long enough to defeat the would-be assassins.{{storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

In the wastes of Burthov, Cliffjumper got the drop on the disenfranchised solder [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]], who had quit Megatron's army in disgust. A brief standoff ensued where Ironhide was confident that his abundant weaponry would ensure Cliffjumper would not harm him, but the younger 'bot noted the cannons were all Ironhide had, and suddenly, his confederates sprung out of the ground to surround the old soldier. Ironhide wasn't in the mood to fight anyway, so the rebels took him to see Optimus '''Prime'''. Sometime later, with the war reaching its peak, Optimus Prime made the decision to capture the All Spark and launch it into deep space, hoping sparing Cybertron further devastation and giving his Autobots the breathing room they required. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}} Cliffjumper was a crew member of [[Ark (Movie)|Optimus's starship]] when it left Cybertron in pursue the All Spark. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number One|The Reign of Starscream issue 1}}

[[Image:ReignofStarscream3 Cliffjumper hyah.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Hyoh!]]

After the death of Megatron and the destruction of the All Spark, Cliffjumper was part of an Autobot assault team on [[Mars (planet)|Mars]] under the command of [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]]. Together with his teammates, he attacked the Starscream's landed Decepticon starship. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Two|The Reign of Starscream issue 2}} Cliffjumper and the others made short work of the [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]], [[Dreadwing (Movie)|Dreadwing]], and [[Payload (Movie)|Payload]] drones that the Decepticons sent against them, but were unprepared for [[Thundercracker (Movie)|Thundercracker]]'s sonic weaponry. Cliffjumper and [[Camshaft (Movie)|Camshaft]] attempted to provide cover for [[Smokescreen (Movie)|Smokescreen]] to evacuate the fallen [[Air Raid (Movie)|Air Raid]], but Thundercracker killed Camshaft and wounded Cliffjumper. Saved from certain doom by Arcee, Cliffjumper turned the tides on the Decepticon, only to be shot in the back by Starscream. Arcee attempted to evacuate her wounded comrade, but was struck down by Starscream instead, leaving Cliffjumper's future looking grim. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 3}}
{{-}}
{{note|Unlike the other Autobots who were clearly shown to have been killed, Cliffjumper's status is ambigious.}}

===Transformers (2007) toy bios===
The Autobots depend on the brazen Cliffjumper to make the more collected of their enemies so angry that they mess up their own plans. At one point, Cliffjumper targeted [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]], who {{m-}} while physically Cliffjumper's equal or better {{m-}} became extremely annoyed by the fact he could not match Cliffjumper's skill at insults. {{storylink|#Legends class toys|Cliffjumper Vs Recon Barricade}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy bios===
If [[Dead End (ROTF)|Dead End]] and Cliffjumper weren't on opposite sides, they would get along swimmingly {{m-}} because they're both dysfunctional jerks. As it happens, the extent of their interpersonal relationship involves Dead End trying to creep the short-tempered Cliffjumper out, which typically ends with Dead End getting punched in the face. {{storylink|#Titanium Series|Cliffjumper and Dead End}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Legends class toys====
{{anchor|LOC2pack}}
[[Image:Movie Legends CliffjumperBarricade toys.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Where's my gun?]]
*'''Cliffjumper Vs Recon Barricade''' (Legends multi-pack, 2007)

: Released as part of the ''AllSpark Battles'' refresh of the movie toyline, [[Legends Class|Legends-class]] Cliffjumper is a [[redeco]] of Legends Bumblebee. However, being a straight redeco, the alt mode remains a classic Camaro, instead of a Concept like the Deluxe figure is. He comes packed with a Legends-class [[Barricade (Movie)|Recon Barricade]], itself a redeco of the previously released Legends class Barricade.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/LegendsCliffjumper/cliffjumper.htm More information on Legends Cliffjumper at TFU.info]

{{-}}{{anchor|LOC}}
*'''Cliffjumper''' (Legends, 2008)

: An individually packaged release of the Legends class toy, released within Europe.
{{-}}
====Deluxe class toys====
[[Image:Movie Cliffjumper Deluxe.jpg|right|300px|thumb|First is yellow, now is red, next is white!]]
*'''Cliffjumper''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Accessories'': Blaster cannon/blade

:As part of the ''[[AllSpark Power]]'' refresh of the movie toyline, Cliffjumper is once again a red and silver Bumblebee redeco, this time of the Deluxe Camaro Concept Bumblebee toy and, naturally, transforms into the [[wikipedia:Fifth-generation_Chevrolet_Camaro|concept vehicle for the 2009 Chevrolet Camaro]]. He features two [[Automorph|Automorphing]] gimmicks during transformation: ''(a)'' swinging his hood down into robot mode position also moves his arms up and ''(b)'', swinging his feet down will move the rear fenders up and behind his calves, as well as swinging the rear windows to his inner calves in a spring-loaded action.

: Cliffjumper comes with a plasma cannon that he can hold in either hand. For added play value, the cannon can Automorph into an energy blade by opening up the halves of the gun barrel and swinging them back. Care should be taken when removing the cannon from Cliffjumper's hands, as excessive force can damage the wrist ball joint socket.

: Contrary to popular opinion, the red pieces on the back of Cliffjumper's feet are ''not'' supposed to be heel spurs, and they have ''not'' been mis-assembled. They are supposed to fold up to emulate the detail found on the CGI design for Bumblebee.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Cliffjumper/cliffjumper.htm More information on Deluxe Cliffjumper at TFU.info]
{{-}}
====Cyber Slammers====
{{anchor|CybSlam}}
[[Image:Movie CyberSlammers Cliffjumper.jpg|right|300px|thumb|This is Red Turbo Ranger, I'm rollin' out!]]
*'''Cliffjumper''' (Cyber Slammer, 2007)

: Part of the fourth wave of [[Cyber Slammers]] toys, Cliffjumper is (natch) a redeco of the concept-Camaro Cyber Slammer Bumblebee. He has motorized action: When you push down on the car, it zooms forward and slowly pops into robot mode!

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/CySlamCliffjumper/cliffjumper.htm More information on Cyber Slammers Cliffjumper at TFU.info]
{{-}}

===Revenge of the Fallen===
====''Titanium Series''====
[[Image:TSCliffjumperVsDeadEnd.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Cliffjumper & Dead End''' (2009)

:A red and black redeco of [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]], ''[[Titanium Series]]'' Cliffjumper is a non-transforming figurine made of plastic and [[die-cast]] metal. He is sculpted wielding a forearm-mounted weapon, and has articulation in his shoulders, neck and waist. Oh, and he comes with a Movie-style Autobot logo base to stand on.

:He was only available in a [[Toys"R"Us]]-exclusive two-pack with [[Dead End (ROTF)|Dead End]].

{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===3D Battle-Card Game===
[[Image:3DCard-Cliffjumper.jpg|right|300px|thumb|He'd have jumped that cliff if he hadn't swerved.]]
*'''Cliffjumper''' (3D Battle-Card, 2007)
**''Card number'': '''2'''

: Cliffjumper is a 31-point "Common" piece in the [[3D Battle-Card Game]]. Constructed of punch-out pieces from randomly packed plastic cards (two full robots per pack), he can be assembled into his car mode (model undetermined) or into a rather stumpy robot mode. One of his blaster-weapons is held in his right hand, the other can mount on either shoulder.

: He uses the same construction as the [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and [[Smokescreen (Movie)|Smokescreen]] cards. This style is similar to the one used by [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]], [[Earth]]-mode [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]], and [[Swerve (Movie)|Swerve]].

:His card art was done by [[Lucio Parrillo]].
{{-}}

===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:Movie RobotHeroes BestBuy Cliffjumper OptimusPrime.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Dance, red boy, DANCE!]]
*'''Cliffjumper and Optimus Prime''' (Robot Heroes, 2007)

: [[Robot Heroes]] Cliffjumper is a redeco of the first-wave Bumblebee figurine, a non-transforming, super-cute rendition of the character. Origianlly [[exclusive]] to the Best Buy USA release of the [[Transformers (2007)|movie DVD release]], along with a battle-damaged version of Robot Heroes [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], Cliffjumper later saw a wider release as part of the 2009 [[blindpacking|blind-packed]] series of ''Robot Heroes''.

{{-}}

==Trivia==
[[Image:MovieCGCliffjumper.jpg|right|250px|thumb|One bee, two bee, red bee, blue bee.]]
* An early [[Industrial Light & Magic|ILM]] test animatic (first seen in Circuit City-exclusive web content, later in the "bonus" section of the official movie website) of Bumblebee in battle had 'Bee facing off against a red doppelganger. Hmmmm.

* Amusingly enough, Cliffjumper's 3D card robot mode is clearly designed after ''[[Alternators]]'' [[Swerve (G1)|Swerve]], though with a few movie-aesthetic concessions thrown in, mostly in the look of the feet. It's ''exceedingly'' likely the names of the two cards got mixed up, as card-game [[Swerve (Movie)|Swerve]] bears more than a passing resemblance to Bumblebee (and by extension, ''every other version'' of movie Cliffjumper), and Cliffjumper sure seems to be relegated to being a Bumblebee redeco since, well, everything after that [[Cliffjumper (G1)|first toy]]. Except [[Cliffjumper (Armada)|these]] [[Cliffjumper (Energon)|two]] guys.

* With three toys, a [[Titanium Series|Titanium]] figuerine, a [[Robot Heroes (toyline)|Robot Heroes]] figurine, and a Battle-Card, Cliffjumper has '''by far''' the most merchandise for a ''Transformers'' movie character not actually appearing IN the film.

* Cover A of [[The Reign of Starscream issue 5]] by [[Alex Milne]], Cliffjumper is featured amongst the Autobots in an Earth mode body based on his Deluxe class toy, despite the fact he never made it to Earth and doesn't even appear in this issue.

{{-}}

==External links==
* [http://www.wizards.com/transformers/ 3D Battle Card Game at Wizards of the Coast]
* [http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Cliffjumper/cliffjumper.htm Cliffjumper at TFU.info]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Exclusives]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:3D Battle-Cards]]

Hightower (ROTF)

2009-11-08T23:24:35Z

72.128.51.130: /* Supreme Class toys */

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Hightower}}

:''Hightower is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image: Hightower_%28ROTF%29_concept.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Now why was this not acknowledged in any way except as a Legends toy?]]

'''Hightower''' transforms into a gigantic truss crane.

When combined with his fellow [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicons]], he forms the left arm of [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]]. When not combined, it is heavily disputed as to whether he can form ''himself''.

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' (movie)===
[[Image:Constructicons-ROTFcanyon.jpg|left|thumb|300px|Best known as "Supplier of at least one of Devastator's balls."]]

During the climactic battle in [[Egypt]] between the Autobots, their human allies and [[The Fallen]]'s Decepticons, Hightower appeared in a quarry with the other Constructicons before merging into Devastator to attack former [[Sector Seven]] agent [[Seymour Simmons]], [[Leo Spitz]], [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]]. As Devastator smashed away at the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] after shrugging off Skids and Mudflap, Simmons called upon the [[United States Navy]] to fire upon the giant Decepticon. The [[United States Navy#U.S.S. Kidd (DDG-100)|U.S.S. ''Kidd'']] fired her experimental [[Railgun|railgun]], smashing one of his arms to pieces and destroying Devastator. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Hightower.jpg|right|thumb|250px|He comes with a Hannibal Lecter facemask.]]
*'''Hightower''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D7'''

:Hightower and the six other Legends class Constructicons combine to form Devastator. In Japan, the Legends class Constructicons are sold individually. He forms the left arm of Devastator.

:His robot mode, based upon concept art by [[Steve Jung]], may be one of the oddest to date.

*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (Legends figure multi-pack, 2010)

:In [[Hasbro]]'s markets, the Legends Constructicons are sold together as a store [[exclusive]].
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Supreme Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Devastator_combiner_toy.jpg|thumb|300px|So...do I have a robot mode or not?]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

:Hightower transforms from a truss crane to Devastator's left arm. Like the other Constructicons in this set, he cannot transform into robot mode due to pricing, accuracy and stability concerns.

{{-}}

====Mega Power Bots====
[[Image:ROTF MegaPowerBots Devastator.jpg|right|300px|thumb]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Burger King===
[[Image:ROTFMerchandise-BurgerKingHightower.jpg|thumb|right|200px|]]
*'''Devastator''' (2009)
:An extremely-simplified version of Hightower's vehicle mode is included as part of [[Devastator (ROTF)#Burger_King|Burger King Devastator]]. Though his ball socket is compatible with any of Devastator's limb connections, it's marked with a B to indicate he forms Devastator's left arm. Hightower seems to be the least [[Show-accuracy|movie accurate]] of the four limbs.
{{--}}
===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Grabby!]]
*'''Desert Devastation''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

:Hightower is the sculpted left arm of "Desert Devastation" Devastator, a super-sized ''[[Robot Heroes (toyline)|Robot Heroes]]'' figure. He is only available in a multi-pack with [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] in their vehicle modes and [[William Lennox]].

{{Comingsoontoy}}

==Notes==
* Like fellow Constructicon [[Overload (ROTF)|Overload]], Hightower had a robot mode designed for him at the concept stage, but he never transformed into robot mode in the movie itself, and indeed, artists for licensed work such as [[IDW Publishing]]'s [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic adaptation]] were unaware that he even had a robot mode. All the references they were provided with simply listed the Truss crane as having "no robot mode".
* On November 6 to November 8, 2009, a second piece of concept art of Hightower similar to his Legends toy (with small ''T. rex'' arms and a claw on his tail) were displayed at Bondi Beach in Sydney, [[Australia]] to promote the [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide|DVD release]] of ''Revenge of the Fallen''. [http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=137233#post137233]

[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen Constructicons]]

Hightower (ROTF)

2009-11-08T23:20:01Z

72.128.51.130: /* Notes */ the original phrasing of this fact makes it sound like this was the debut of Hightower's concept art. Edited to reflect that this is not the case.

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Hightower}}

:''Hightower is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image: Hightower_%28ROTF%29_concept.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Now why was this not acknowledged in any way except as a Legends toy?]]

'''Hightower''' transforms into a gigantic truss crane.

When combined with his fellow [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicons]], he forms the left arm of [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]]. When not combined, it is heavily disputed as to whether he can form ''himself''.

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' (movie)===
[[Image:Constructicons-ROTFcanyon.jpg|left|thumb|300px|Best known as "Supplier of at least one of Devastator's balls."]]

During the climactic battle in [[Egypt]] between the Autobots, their human allies and [[The Fallen]]'s Decepticons, Hightower appeared in a quarry with the other Constructicons before merging into Devastator to attack former [[Sector Seven]] agent [[Seymour Simmons]], [[Leo Spitz]], [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]]. As Devastator smashed away at the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] after shrugging off Skids and Mudflap, Simmons called upon the [[United States Navy]] to fire upon the giant Decepticon. The [[United States Navy#U.S.S. Kidd (DDG-100)|U.S.S. ''Kidd'']] fired her experimental [[Railgun|railgun]], smashing one of his arms to pieces and destroying Devastator. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Hightower.jpg|right|thumb|250px|He comes with a Hannibal Lecter facemask.]]
*'''Hightower''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D7'''

:Hightower and the six other Legends class Constructicons combine to form Devastator. In Japan, the Legends class Constructicons are sold individually. He forms the left arm of Devastator.

:His robot mode, based upon concept art by [[Steve Jung]], may be one of the oddest to date.

*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (Legends figure multi-pack, 2010)

:In [[Hasbro]]'s markets, the Legends Constructicons are sold together as a store [[exclusive]].
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Supreme Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Devastator_combiner_toy.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

:Hightower transforms from a truss crane to Devastator's left arm. Like the other Constructicons in this set, he cannot transform into robot mode due to pricing, accuracy and stability concerns.

{{-}}

====Mega Power Bots====
[[Image:ROTF MegaPowerBots Devastator.jpg|right|300px|thumb]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Burger King===
[[Image:ROTFMerchandise-BurgerKingHightower.jpg|thumb|right|200px|]]
*'''Devastator''' (2009)
:An extremely-simplified version of Hightower's vehicle mode is included as part of [[Devastator (ROTF)#Burger_King|Burger King Devastator]]. Though his ball socket is compatible with any of Devastator's limb connections, it's marked with a B to indicate he forms Devastator's left arm. Hightower seems to be the least [[Show-accuracy|movie accurate]] of the four limbs.
{{--}}
===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Grabby!]]
*'''Desert Devastation''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

:Hightower is the sculpted left arm of "Desert Devastation" Devastator, a super-sized ''[[Robot Heroes (toyline)|Robot Heroes]]'' figure. He is only available in a multi-pack with [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] in their vehicle modes and [[William Lennox]].

{{Comingsoontoy}}

==Notes==
* Like fellow Constructicon [[Overload (ROTF)|Overload]], Hightower had a robot mode designed for him at the concept stage, but he never transformed into robot mode in the movie itself, and indeed, artists for licensed work such as [[IDW Publishing]]'s [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic adaptation]] were unaware that he even had a robot mode. All the references they were provided with simply listed the Truss crane as having "no robot mode".
* On November 6 to November 8, 2009, a second piece of concept art of Hightower similar to his Legends toy (with small ''T. rex'' arms and a claw on his tail) were displayed at Bondi Beach in Sydney, [[Australia]] to promote the [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide|DVD release]] of ''Revenge of the Fallen''. [http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=137233#post137233]

[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen Constructicons]]

Talk:Frank Springer

2009-11-06T20:03:53Z

72.128.51.130: /* Bad taste? */

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

:Wha' happen? Did someone tell you Dan Ackroyd died? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:20, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

::Oh n/m, I see. You know, you should really clarify your anguished outcries with edit summaries. >:( -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:21, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Bad taste? ==

Would a "Didn't have anything better to do that night, so he died" blurb be off-limits here? [[Special:Contributions/72.128.51.130|72.128.51.130]] 15:02, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Talk:Frank Springer

2009-11-06T20:03:41Z

72.128.51.130: /* Bad taste? */ new section

Talk:Frank Springer

2009-11-06T20:02:45Z

72.128.51.130: /* Bad taste? */ new section

Micro-continuity

2009-11-06T19:41:26Z

72.128.51.130:

[[Image:Decepticonhideout.jpg|right|300px|thumb|[[Devastator (ROTF)|Wrecking balls]] really push his buttons.]]
Since the dawn of the [[Transformers brand]], a variety of unconnected media has conspired to create multiple [[Continuity|continuities]], even within individual [[Franchise|franchises]]. The most famous such continuity split is the divergence of the original [[The Transformers (cartoon)|cartoon]] and [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|comic]], which contributed sometimes similar but ultimately irreconcilable versions of [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]. While the most prominent continuities are well known, there exist many '''"micro-continuities"''': continuities about which only very limited information is available, yet which manage in that small space to be incompatible with the major continuities.

Although all officially produced fiction is [[canon]] for some continuity or another, the significance of these "micro-continuities" is a matter of individual fans' tastes and [[Personal canon|personal canons]].

== Limited fictions ==
Continuities that exist in a very small number of works may share an apparent single continuity, such as the [[Ladybird Books|Ladybird]] or [[Find Your Fate Junior]] books. Some continuities may even appear in only a single isolated work, such as the ''[[Transformers Beast Wars: Transmetals]]'' video game.

Although usually small and insignificant in the wider scheme of things, such tales can contain interesting or unique takes on certain characters or situations—for example, providing actual stories in which [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] and [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] spent a prolonged period as opposing leaders, a status quo hinted at by much of the lead-in and post-movie product advertising but which was ultimately never realized in the major fictions.

Other examples of limited fictions include any comic mini-series that present a clearly unique and isolated continuity that has only been shown within the pages of that series and has not been revisited, such as the WWII-set ''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe]]''.

===Prose stories===
[[Image:TFLegendscover.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Mmmm...lucky dip.]]
Probably the most underdeveloped medium in Transformers fiction, prose stories are considered to be offshoots from their parent continuities (as is often the case with the expanded universes of even prolifically novelized franchises like ''Star Trek''). However, the prose stories that were included in the [[Marvel UK]] annuals are a notable exception, as most of these are usually treated as part of UK continuity.

The [[Find Your Fate Junior]] books are, by their very nature, micro-continuities (or, if you want to be pedantic, they contain ''multiple'' "nano"-continuities within them), since the various outcomes frequently involve the deaths of major characters.

The success of [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] inspired a small, short-lived boom in ''Transformers'' prose fiction. The [[Keepers Trilogy]] was [[Authorial intent|intended]] to be set in the Dreamwave continuity, but as Dreamwave was not really involved in their publication and subsequent Dreamwave comics made no explicit reference to them, it is a matter of [[Personal canon|taste]] whether the trilogy is part of the Dreamwave-verse proper or is a micro-continuity offshoot.

The prose anthology book ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' is more cut-and-dried at first glance. The foreword by editor David Cian explicitly states that the short stories in the anthology do ''not'' have canonical status in their respective continuities, and are "what-if" tales. For some of the stories, such as "[[Paddles (story)|Paddles]]", "[[Fire in the Dark]]", and "[[Lonesome Diesel]]", it is quite clear from their inconsistency with pre-existing continuities that they are micro-continuities.

However, other stories in the volume (such as "[[Singularity Ablyss]]", "[[Geosensus|Parts]]", "[[A Meeting of Minds]]", and "[[Redemption Center]]") fit nicely into their respective continuities and (were it not for the editor's caveat) could easily be canon. [[Personal canon|It is thus debatable]] whether these stories are also mere micro-continuity offshoots or something more.

{{-}}

== Implied continuities ==
While never truly represented by any narrative fiction, some micro-continuities arise as the result of discrepancies between the toy lines and characters' portrayals elsewhere. In ''Generation 1'' this was often limited to individual characters' appearances varying drastically between toy and cartoon (and, by extension, most other media). Prominent examples of this are [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]].

Implied continuities can also include discrepancies in on-package [[Bio|bios]], such as [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] being described as merely "Decepticon [[City Commander]]" and possessing a lower rank than his unspecified superiors (not to mention the fact that he is nowhere said to be a reformatted [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], probably to avoid spoiling the movie). A more striking example of such differences implying the existence of whole new continuities occurs in ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]]'' and ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' (see below.)

===Bio-only continuities===
Some toys exist in a complete continuity vacuum; the only indications as to the nature of the universe they inhabit that can be gleaned are from their on-package bios.

====Cross-Promotional toys====
[[Image:NikemusPrime.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Corporate endorsements are the right of all variant Primes.]]
Japanese [[Exclusive|exclusives]] are particularly prone to this, especially some of their more bizarre cross-promotion toys such as [[Pepsi Convoy]], the Takara Sport Label [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]] figures, who transform into miniature Nike sneakers, or Takara Music Label's [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]] or MP3 player [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]]. Is one seriously to consider these characters part of a mainstream version of [[Generation 1|G1 continuity]] as their bios imply, or does one relegate them to weird little micro-continuities in which Optimus has an insatiable desire for signing endorsement deals? [[Personal canon|YOU decide.]]

====Machine Wars====
The ''[[Machine Wars]]'' toy line is the best example of bio-only implied continuity as, very unusually, it represents an entire line (albeit a ''very'' small one) which possesses no official fiction in any form save for the toy bios, in which story hints are limited mainly to the existence of [[Megaplex]] and a few peculiarities about [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]]. Given the lack of any other story material, whether the differences/character development with Thundercracker imply a whole new micro-continuity or are viewed as new developments within an existing continuity falls solely to personal preference.

====Movie (2007)====

[[Movie (toyline)|''Transformers'' (2007) toys]] continued to be brought out after the movie had ended, and a number placed themselves as happening ''after'' the movie. With no narrative backing and the sequel not using this concepts, the bios thus create an implied continuity where [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is infused with the power of the All Spark, [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] is not dead, [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] and (temporarily) [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] retired, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] carried out a stealthy war, and the Autobots took the fight to Decepticons on [[Mars]].

On top of this, inconsistencies with the bios and prequel fiction give the impression of a different ''pre''-movie continuity. Two main differences are that [[Hardtop (Movie)|Hardtop]] is the one that silenced Bumblebee; and that ''[[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]]'' was the one leading the search for the All Spark, and wanted to take full command.

{{picsneeded}}

=== Beast Toylines vs. Shows ===
Unlike G1, the [[Beast Era]] has not featured major divergent continuities, leading (at least for most of its existence) to a fairly unified canon.

However, due to the high cost and time constraints of a fully CG-animated series, both [[Mainframe Entertainment]]'s ''Beast'' shows were limited in the number of characters that could be included. They are remarkable amongst the Transformers franchises in ''not'' showcasing nearly every available toy as a character in the show. As a result, the main ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]]'' and ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' fiction-depicted continuities feature only a limited portion of the overall number of toys/characters created, and furthermore the tight storytelling and premises of the shows leave little room for their inclusion in an "off camera" capacity (although see below: "When is a micro-continuity not a micro-continuity?"). An additional discrepancy in ''Beast Wars'' is that several characters, such as [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] and [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], were featured as Transmetal toys, but were not upgraded in the cartoon. (Note that IDW's ''[[Beast Wars Sourcebook]]'' attempts to provide a rationale for these missing Transmetal bodies, as well as the bat and crocodile forms of Primal and Megatron, [[Beast Wars timeline (IDW)|at least in terms of their own version of continuity]].)

One can either postulate that the toy line ''itself'' implies a micro-continuity in which the full number of toy characters coexisted, or one could attempt to reconcile these characters with an already existent micro-continuity: that of the pre-cartoon on-package bios and mini-comic...

==== The "G1 Beast Wars" ====
On-package bios for the first waves of ''Beast Wars'' indicated that the Beast Wars took place on present-day Earth, and that [[Optimus Primal]] and [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] were just G1 [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] in the latest of their long series of reformatted bodies. This storyline was showcased in one installment of "limited fiction," a comic which was included with the bat Optimus and alligator Megatron 2-pack.

Although later bios would reflect the universe established by the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon, these first-series materials create a micro-continuity that features a bat-mode Optimus Prime(al) leading troops that include the likes of both [[Rattrap]] and [[Razorbeast]] against an alligator-mode Megatron and his minions, such as [[Tarantulas]] and [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]], stalking their secret genetic labs and duking it out for the fate of modern, urban Earth. It is then open to debate whether Optimus and Megatron subsequently "upgraded" to their gorilla and T-Rex modes (the comic certainly implies that Megatron plans to), or that later waves of show, non-show, and even Transmetal characters are featured in this micro-continuity.

==== Crawling with Maximals ====
The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines toyline]]'' contained many toy-only characters—[[Maximal]], [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]], and "[[Dinobot (BM)|other]]"—who were again fairly incompatible with the tightly plotted continuity of the cartoon. A similar "implied continuity" can be postulated that would include these extra characters in an alternate version of events that supported a larger cast.

== When is a micro-continuity not a micro-continuity? ==
There are some continuities which have attempted to explain retroactively the presence (or rather absence) of the non-show characters in both ''Beast Wars'' and ''Beast Machines''. [[3H Productions|3H]]'s ''[[Universe (2003 comic)|Wreckers]]'' comics and associated projects attempted to fill out much of the ''Beast Machines'' gaps in a workable fashion, while [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] has tackled virtually every toy-only ''[[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' character in ''[[The Gathering]]''. However, these two approaches contradict each other, and neither have (as yet) provided expansive storylines. Whether one deems these stories to be part of the larger show-based canon (despite contradictions), individual "complementary" continuities, or indeed just larger-than-usual micro-continuities themselves is, like most things, up to the individual fan's taste and [[personal canon]].

By the same token, the comic-book fictions for [[Generation 2 (Marvel Comics)|Generation 2]] and [[Classics (2006)|Transformers Classics]] present timelines that diverge from the U.S./U.K. [[List of Generation 1 comics|Marvel comic]], each representing full toy lines. This may be compared with [[Machine Wars]] which is apparently a continuation of G1 but may or may not exist (later) in the same timeline as G2. Whether such examples of divergent offshoots of larger continuities should be classed as micro-continuities (in spite of toylines and many issues of fiction) or be included with their "parent" continuities as branched extensions is, again, a matter of taste and [[personal canon]].

{{stub}}

[[Category:Continuities]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:Media]]
[[Category:Stories]]

Revenge of the Fallen (comics)

2009-09-04T05:25:00Z

72.128.51.130: no longer upcoming

{{nav-rotf}}

{{disambig}}
There are multiple comics associated with the ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' movie franchise, by [[IDW Publishing]] and [[Titan Books|Titan]]:

*''[[Transformers: Destiny]]'', a prequel series consisting of two separate four-issue story arcs:
**''[[Alliance (comic)|Transformers: Alliance]]'', the mini-series, picks up where ''[[The Reign of Starscream]]'' left off and leads into ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' itself.
**''[[Defiance|Transformers: Defiance]]'', the second mini-series, is actually set much further in the past, dealing with the rise of [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] and serving as a prequel to the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]] as a whole.
*''[[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation]]'', another four-issue mini-series from IDW released weekly before the movie's theatrical release.
*[[Transformers (Titan Magazine)|''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'']], a monthly title by Titan in the UK (a rebranding of their existing comic).
*''[[Tales of the Fallen]]'', an miniseries by IDW. [http://www.idwpublishing.com/catalog/book/687]
*''[[Nefarious|Transformers: Nefarious]]'', a sequel to ''Tales of the Fallen'', in a similar vein as ''[[The Reign of Starscream]]''

{{stub}}

[[Category:Comics]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen]]

Bumblebee (Movie)

2009-08-18T22:40:58Z

72.128.51.130: /* IDW Transformers movie comics */

{{factions|autobot|NEST}}
{{disambig3|Bumblebee}}
:''Bumblebee is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]]. He is also known as '''N.B.E.-02'''.''

[[Image:TF-Alliance03 Cover Nizzi.jpg|right|300px|thumb|"Groovy, bee-otch!"]]
'''Bumblebee''' is one of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]'s most trusted lieutenants. Although he is not the strongest or most powerful of the Autobots, Bumblebee more than makes up for this with a bottomless well of luck, determination and bravery. He would gladly give his life to protect others and stop the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]].

Badly damaged in battle, Bumblebee lost the ability to speak verbally, though he can still communicate over inter-Autobot frequencies (in a fashion that seems somewhat akin to instant messaging, a usable but more distant and less personal means of interaction).

{{quote|[[William Lennox|You]] wanna lay the fate of the world on [[Sam Witwicky|the kid]]'s Camaro? That's cool.|[[Seymour Simmons|Agent Simmons]]|[[Transformers (2007)]]}}

:''Spanish name:'' '''Abejorro''' ("Bumblebee")
:''Chinese name:'' '''Dà Húang-fēng''' Mandarin/'''Daai Wong-fung''' Cantonese (大黃蜂, "Bumblebee")
:''Hungarian name:'' '''Űrdongó''' ("Space Bumblebee")

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance1_Cliffjumper_Bumblebee.jpg|thumb|left|300px|]]

Many years in the past, Bumblebee and [[Cliffjumper (Movie)|Cliffjumper]] were guardians of the [[All Spark]] at the Temple of [[Simfur]]. One day, Bumblebee wondered aloud why Optimus and Lord High Protector [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] were out investigating the nearby excavation site when the All Spark was "freaking" out with energy spikes. Cliffjumper assured him that whatever Optimus and the others were investigating, it must have been important, then reminded his colleague that they had their duties. When Bumblebee admitted nerves, Cliffjumper said that the two of them could handle anything, and just to let trouble come to them. He would soon regret those words when aliens attacked Simfur. They were seeking cover inside the temple when Lord Megatron swooped in, berated them for not taking the fight to the enemy and destroyed their opponent. He then told commander [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] to keep the lowly security guards out of the way of the military. {{storylink|Defiance issue 1}}

Bumblebee was concerned this was the start of something ''big'', to which Cliffjumper agreed, but he felt that as little cogs in the great machine, all they needed to do was stand guard. [[Prowl (Movie)|Prowl]] advised them to stay at their posts and report to him of any unusual activity from the All Spark during the battle. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 2}}

[[Image:Defiance3_Optimus_Bumblebee_orders.jpg|thumb|300px|Well, that's one way to make a first impression.]]

After [[The Fallen|the relic]] informed Megatron of Optimus' break and enter of his personal quarters, Bumblebee, [[Smokescreen (Movie)|Smokescreen]], Cliffjumper, [[Camshaft (Movie)|Camshaft]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and Prowl were sent to the ruins near [[Burthov]] to arrest Optimus ''Prime's'' party on trumped-up charges of treason. When Optimus angrily demanded to know just what he had done to be charged with treason, Bumblebee pointed his weapon at the science leader and said they were just following orders, which seemed to satisfy Optimus. What the security officers didn't know was they were being led into a trap, and soldiers loyal to Megatron were under orders to eliminate all but Optimus. After being hit by an explosive round, the group banded together, realising they had all been marked for death. Optimus ordered them to flee to Burthov while he took care of Starscream's group personally. {{storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

[[Image:Defiance_Bumblebee_vehiclemodes.jpg|thumb|left|300px|My alt-mode is Pac-Man]]

While on an apparent scouting mission, Bumblebee and [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]] discovered the ''[[Nemesis (ROTF)|Nemesis]]'' while it was under construction and reported their findings back to Prowl. Then Bumblebee transformed into a ball and Arcee transformed into a hover-bike and they both headed back to base. When the ''Nemesis'' was completed, Bumblebee and Arcee were there once again to witness the majority of the Decepticon forces board and take off for parts unknown to them.

With the bulk of the war-like Decepticons gone into space, the Autobots were able to hold their own in their resistance to Megatron's rule, but the war was ever-escalating in intensity, leading to increasing casualties and devastation to Cybertron. When it was clear to Optimus Prime that the conflict was locked in a stalemate, he made the desperate decision to capture the All Spark and launch it into space. This decision took Bumblebee by surprise, but he supported Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

[[Image:MovieMegatron Bumblebee torture comic.jpg|right|200px|thumb|]]

During the raid to capture the All Spark, Bumblebee commanded the Autobot forces at [[Tyger Pax]] on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] attempting to hold the [[Decepticon]]s off while the All Spark was launched off-planet. He succeeded, but Megatron crushed his voice box, and he lost his ability to speak in the process. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}{{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Prime Directive issue 1}} [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] has been having trouble fixing it ever since. Bumblebee was declared a hero for his actions, but he feared that all they had done was potentially spread their war to other worlds. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Prime Directive issue 1}}

Later, he was the first to track the All Spark to [[Earth]], making planetfall in 2003. Here, he learned to express his emotions by tuning in appropriately emotive music on his car radio. Though the clandestine [[human]] organization [[Sector Seven]] tracked his descent and secured the area in [[Virginia]] where he landed, his quick assumption of a local alternate mode disguise allowed him to escape via Interstate 64. Bumblebee's search for the All Spark began in St. Louis, Missouri, where he used a remote link to a coffee shop computer to search [[Shwiggle]] for any signs of extra-terrestrial sightings. There, he discovered the legend of the [[Ice-Man]], and the story of Captain [[Archibald Witwicky]]. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 3|Prime Directive issue 3}}

Bumblebee's quest took him to [[Baton Rouge]], Louisiana, where Captain Witwicky had been committed. First he visited the ruins of the long-abandoned [[Psychopathic Institute for the Long-Term Insane]], Witwicky's final home. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 4|Prime Directive issue 4}} From there, Bumblebee headed into downtown, where he scanned the records of Captain Witwicky from an unnamed [[asylum]]. This action unfortunately put Sector Seven onto his trail.

The Baton Rouge clues led Bumblebee to [[Springfield]], Missouri, in search of Witwicky's son [[Clarence Witwicky|Clarence]]. En route, he evaded the first of several attacks by Sector Seven. In Springfield, he found records of Clarence's descendants, and started out to track them down. The oldest son, [[Ben Witwicky|Ben]], had resided in Denver, Colorado, but the trail ended there. En route to his next stop in Tucson, Bumblebee was again attacked by Sector Seven, evading their helicopters by blinding them and rocketing off at high speed. Not long after, he was attacked by [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] in the desert. {{storylink|Interlude}}

Damaged and smoking, Bumblebee stopped by the roadside to rest and recover. Suddenly detecting a burst of All Spark energy, he continued onwards out of Colorado. In New Mexico, as he approached the source of the All Spark energy, he came under attack once again from Barricade. Other Decepticons, meanwhile, attacked the energy source and found it to be a Sector Seven ruse. Bumblebee managed to escape Barricade again, though unbeknownst to him the Decepticons let him go so that they could track him. Eventually, his search took him to [[Tranquility]], [[Nevada]], {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 4|Prime Directive issue 4}} where he would soon encounter [[Sam Witwicky]].

===''Transformers: Beginnings''===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Mark Ryan]]

[[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] entrusted Bumblebee with the secret that the All Spark would be sent into deep space to prevent Lord Megatron from possessing and corrupting it. Just after the launch, Megatron attacked Bumblebee in rage at losing the All Spark and shattered the Autobot's voice capacitor beyond repair.

Bumblebee arrived on Earth and, sensing the AllSpark was near, took on local camouflage to search for the artifact. He immediately attracted the attention of Sector Seven agents and the Decepticons. {{storylink|Transformers: Beginnings}}

{{note|Transformers: Beginnings is a condensed, flash-animated retelling of the [[IDW]] [[Prime Directive (IDW)|Prime Directive]] Movie Prequel that is detailed above this section.}}

===''Ghosts of Yesterday'' prequel novel===
Between Tyger Pax and his arrival on Earth, Bumblebee and the rest of the [[Ark (Movie)|''Ark'']] crew encountered some humans in deep space and got their first clues to where Megatron and the All Spark rested. Bumblebee discovered a human shuttle, the Ghost 1, which had been made by reverse-engineering from Megatron's body. He was attacked by Starscream and escaped. Attacked by giant, metal-eating worms, he was ultimately saved by Optimus Prime. Bumblebee participated in the final battle against the Decepticons. {{storylink|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

{{charstubfiction}}

===''Transformers'' (2007) film===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Mark Ryan]] (English), [[Hiroshi Iwasaki]] (Japan radio voice) [[Akio Kato]] (Japan normal voice), [[Helmut Gauß]] (German)

[[Image:Movie2007 Bumblebee dealership.jpg|left|250px|thumb|The old old and the new old.]]
Bumblebee, having made his way to a second-rate car dealership, became [[Sam Witwicky]]'s first car. Sam's father promised his son a car if Sam paid half of the money and achieved three A's in school. After doing so with the help of his genealogy project, Sam rode with [[Ron Witwicky|his father]] to [[Bolivia's Finest Quality Used Cars and Petting Zoo|a car lot with an exceedingly long name]]. Following them to the lot, Bumblebee quietly placed himself among the other cars. To prevent Sam from having to choose another car, he used a high-frequency sound wave to blow out the windows of every other car in the lot, leaving [[Bobby Bolivia]] with no choice but to sell Bumblebee to the Witwickys.

The next day, Sam and his friend [[Miles Lancaster]] drove Bumblebee down to the lake in a misguided attempt to impress the popular girls at a party. Observing the exchange of thinly veiled insults between Sam and the football jocks, Bumblebee decided to help out Sam when the boy noticed [[Mikaela Banes]] walking home after a falling-out with her now ex-boyfriend. Playing "Drive" on his radio, Bumblebee inspired Sam to kick Miles out and drive Mikaela home. As the two awkwardly chatted, Bumblebee suddenly turned off his engine when they neared a romantic spot overlooking the city, this time playing "Sexual Healing" and "I Feel Good". Not knowing his car has a mind of its own, Sam misinterpreted this as a breakdown. Mikaela attempted to fix Bumblebee with her mechanical knowhow, only to leave after Sam asked her why she tolerated jerks like her ex-boyfriend. Trying to help as much as he could, Bumblebee allowed Sam to start up his engine as she walked away, this time playing "Baby, Come Back". Arriving at Mikaela's house, Sam advanced a step towards her by stating that he didn't believe her to be shallow at all, that there was "more than meets the eye" with her. After she left, Sam quietly enthused that he loved his car.

[[Image:Movie2007 Bumblebee firstsighting.jpg|right|250px|thumb|One of the clearer shots in the film.]]
Later that night, Bumblebee drove off by himself with Sam in hot pursuit, believing it to be a car theft. Unwittingly leading his human owner to a junkyard, Bumblebee transformed and activated his communications beacon, requesting assistance from Optimus Prime and the other Autobots. Unknown to him, Sam had seen his robot form and run off, and was now being being pursued by the junkyard's two guard dogs. Bumblebee came to Sam's aid, scaring off the dogs, but had to escape when the police (whom Sam had previously summoned when Bumblebee drove away from his house) arrived to arrest Sam for breaking into the junkyard.

The next day, Bumblebee drove back to the Witwicky house sometime after Sam had been bailed out by his dad. Frightened and confused, Sam rode away from what he dubbed "[[Unicron|Satan]]'s Camaro", ending up in the city and encountering Mikaela in front of a Burger King. Bumblebee followed Sam towards an industrial area, not realizing that the Decepticon [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] was stalking the boy, intent on finding glasses belonging to [[Archibald Witwicky|Sam's ancestor]], which Sam had been auctioning on [[eBay]] Sam ran away from the attacking Decepticon and literally ran into Mikaela after she had followed him. As Barricade bore down on the pair, Bumblebee suddenly appeared, knocking the Decepticon off his feet, then drove the humans away as Barricade gave chase.

[[Image:Movie Bumblebee winner.jpg|left|250px|thumb|YOU BIG WINNER, HAHAHA.]]
Racing through dilapidated factories and warehouses, Bumblebee eventually arrived at a deserted chemical plant on the outskirts of town. There he waited until Barricade's back was turned before dumping Sam and Mikaela out of his passenger side door, then transforming into robot mode to protect his friends. Barricade transformed and attacked, hitting Bumblebee with his tire spikes and knocking the Autobot into a chemical tank. In retaliation, Bumblebee grabbed Barricade and threw him into an electrical substation, seriously damaging the Decepticon and putting him into stasis lock. After Sam and Mikaela took care of [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]], Bumblebee introduced himself to them entirely through the use of his radio, explaining that it was the only way he could communicate, that he was an alien, and that Sam had witnessed him calling to his friends the previous night. Transforming back into vehicle mode, Bumblebee invited his friends to enter (which they did after a brief hesitation) and began to drive them to nearby [[Griffith Observatory]].

[[Image:Movie Bumblebee Mikaela observatory.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Still think I'm a piece of crap, lady?]]
On the way, Mikaela (who had refused to sit in the driver's seat, as Bumblebee was driving), rhetorically asked Sam that if Bumblebee was a super-advanced robot, why did he turn into a piece-of-crap Camaro? Mildly insulted, Bumblebee stopped in the middle of a packed tunnel and forced the humans out, then drove away. As Sam lamented the fact that "four thousand dollars just drove away," Bumblebee passed another car and scanned it, driving back to the pair as a sleek and shiny 2009 Camaro. Amazed and impressed, Sam and Mikaela got back in, and Bumblebee continued their journey to the observatory. Arriving, the humans observed as the other Autobots entered the Earth's atmosphere and crash-landed in various parts of the city.

Bumblebee then took his friends to a secluded alleyway, where Sam and Mikaela met the other Autobots. Introducing themselves, Sam learned that Bumblebee was his guardian and that the Autobot's vocal processors had been damaged in battle. [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] was still working on them as he fired a regenerative plasma beam<ref name="Orci">[http://boards.transformersmovie.com/showthread.php?t=12054 Post-movie Q&A with screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman]</ref> at the damaged area. [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] explained that their mission was to find the [[All Spark]], and that Sam Witwicky was the key due to his grandfather discovering [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] on an Arctic voyage.

[[Image:Movie BumblebeeCC guardian.jpg|left|250px|thumb|I may be your guardian, but I will not carry you through a crowd to the music of Whitney Houston.]]
Arriving at the Witwicky residence, Bumblebee attempted to convince his comrades to remain out of sight while Sam was talking to his father. When Sam and Mikaela were captured by [[Sector Seven]], Bumblebee helped rescue them. The interrogation of [[Seymour Simmons|Agent Simmons]] went nowhere, however, and Bumblebee became so annoyed with his attitude that he released lubricant onto the agent. Soon, Sector Seven reinforcements arrived, intent on recapturing the kids and any "N.B.E.s" they could get their hands on. Optimus Prime tried to protect Sam and Mikaela as they hid under a bridge, but both almost fell to their deaths when they slipped. Bumblebee raced forward, transforming and catching them in mid-air. Unfortunately, this also gave Sector Seven a clear and obvious target for them to attack. Firing harpoon cables from helicopters, the clandestine human organization dragged Bumblebee to the ground, and its soldiers began to freeze the helpless Autobot, who reached out to Sam. The boy broke free from an agent's grip, pushing the soldiers aside until he was tackled by several agents and taken away. Though [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] objected to allowing Sector Seven to leave with their friend, Optimus Prime ordered his troops to stand down, as there was no way to save the prisoners without incurring human casualties.

[[Image:Movie2007 Bumblebee AllSpark.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Also available in pocket size.]]
Taken to [[Hoover Dam]], Bumblebee was continually doused with cryoblasts to keep him docile and inert as Sector Seven performed experiments on him. Sam and Mikaela (with some armed persuasion from [[William Lennox|Captain Lennox]]) convinced Sector Seven to release Bumblebee. Upon his release, Bumblebee converted to battle mode and almost lashed out at his human oppressors until Sam calmed him down, informing him of the presence of the All Spark and Megatron in the facility, and that the Decepticons were coming for both. Following the humans to the All Spark's chamber, Bumblebee hesitantly reached out to the life source of his people and reformatted it, shrinking the cube until it was a size that the humans could manipulate. Bumblebee and a military escort fled to [[Mission City]], meeting the Autobots en route.

Soon after they arrived at the city, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] appeared. Recognizing the Decepticon, [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] and Bumblebee lifted up an abandoned truck in order to shield the humans from any collateral damage Starscream's attack would inevitably bring. One of the Decepticon's missiles struck the truck, sending both Autobots flying, with Bumblebee landing in a store front. The attack tore off Bumblebee's legs and left him barely functional, as Sam discovered to his horror when Bumblebee crawled from the wreckage. Soon, the other Decepticons arrived, led by Megatron, and the remaining Autobots were engaged. Mikaela and Sam hoisted Bumblebee onto a abandoned tow truck, but refused to leave his side. The Autobot silently handed his friend the All Spark, trusting the fate of his people into the boy's hands, and urged him to run while he still could. As Sam ran off, Mikaela drove Bumblebee away from the fighting to relative safety.

[[Image:Movie2007_Sam_Mikaela_makingoutonBumblebee.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Why? Just.....why ?]]

However, she was soon overcome with guilt for leaving Sam and the battle. With Bumblebee's assent, she turned the truck around and headed back in. As Mikaela drove down the street in reverse, Bumblebee activated his weapon systems, then fired his [[plasma cannon]] and missiles at [[Brawl (Movie)|Devastator]], who was pinning down Captain Lennox and the rest of the combined Ranger/Sector Seven soldiers. His contribution was the deciding factor, confusing Devastator enough for the soldiers to counterattack, and the Decepticon was destroyed at last when Bumblebee's final cannon blast pierced his spark. Bumblebee was rather pleased with himself, and Mikaela complimented his shooting.

After the destruction of Megatron and the All Spark, Bumblebee (who had regained his voice<ref name="Orci">[http://boards.transformersmovie.com/showthread.php?t=12054 Post-movie Q&A with screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman]</ref> requested permission to remain with Sam, to which the young man agreed. After his legs were repaired, he allowed Sam and Mikaela to make out on top of him as the other Autobots watched. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)|Transformers}}

It was the best day ever. Well, maybe not for Jazz.

===Titan Magazines ''Transformers'' movie comics===
{{notetitantlg}}
In an alternate reality, it was the crappiest day ever because Sam failed and was killed, and Megatron went on to conquer much of the Earth. Bumblebee liked to believe that there was a universe out there in which Megatron lost.

[[Image:Titan MikaelaBumblebee.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Why is he apologizing, you ask? Look where his left hand is.]]

Bumblebee and Mikaela went on to become old comrades in guerrilla warfare, and in 2008 went on a mission to rescue Optimus Prime from a Decepticon bunker in Denver. Bumblebee, now with missile launchers in car mode and increased physical strength, took out the bunker guard, [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]], (nearly crushing Mikaela by accident—"My bad.") and found Prime...or what was left of him. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 9|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 1}} Now stuck in the base, Bumblebee was being hunted by [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 10|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 2}}, and baited into revealing himself when the tyrant threatened to kill Mikaela. Bumblebee made a desperate attack, only to be beaten aside with ease. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 11|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 3}}

Despite his defeat, he remained defiant to the end and refused to beg for mercy. Luckily the Autobot reinforcements arrived; unluckily, they couldn't stop Megatron; luckily again, Mikaela had revived Optimus Prime to save them {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 12|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 4}} and arrived with Phase Two of their plan, a Sector Seven nanovirus that targeted All Spark energy. Plugging it to himself, Bumblebee charged at the super-powered Megatron and forcibly uploaded the nano-virus, killing the tyrant once and for all. Not that he patted himself on the back over this, for he knew too well that this just left a [[Starscream (Movie)|power vacuum]]... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 13|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 5}}

Still partnered with Mikaela near the Savannah, Georgia refugee camp post-occupation, Bumblebee appeared frustrated with how the humans were frightened of him and, to be listened to, Mikaela had to do the talking for him. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 14}} They went back into battle again to end a [[NATO]] bombardment of the Autobots in Savannah, running a gauntlet of tanks and [[Thundercracker (Movie)|Thundercrackers]] before freeing the NATO field commander from Decepticon mind control. During the course of the battle he roasted a drone with fiery exhaust. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 15|Aftermath Part 2}}

Following this battle, Bumblebee was involved in many clashes with Decepticons to protect human infrastructure, including leading a small group to protect an oil pipeline in Alaska. [[Armorhide (Movie)|Armorhide]] did not follow orders well. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 16|Dark Spark}}

[[Image:Bumblebeehandlesthis.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Yes, you ''did'' see this happen.]]

Following ''that'', he was sent with Arcee and Armorhide to Cybertron, under Ironhide's command. The mission was to retrieve [[Nucleon]]. Bumblebee was ordered to do recon and discovered a strange satellite dish, but investigating it saw the team jumped by [[Stockade (Movie)|Stockade]]. Then a strange energy anomaly appeared in orbit, and when Bumblebee asked what it was, Stockade babbled "BLBLBLBLBBL!". {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 17|Return to Cybertron: Part 1}} Bumblebee's subsequent attempt at dialogue (after first convincing Ironhide to stop throwing his face at Stockade's fists) was more successful, finding out the anomaly was a living entity the Decepticons had deliberately summoned, believing it would rejuvenate Cybertron.

Not trusting this entity and wanting to stop all the Nucleon being used up, Bumblebee organised the Autobots to create a distraction while he snuck around and turned the Nucleon transfer off. He also intended to send a message to Optimus, and considering [[Unicron|the entity was Unicron the Anti-Life]], it's a good thing he did. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 18|Return to Cybertron: Part 2}} In the resulting chaos, Bumblebee had [[Divebomb (Movie)|Divebomb]] barge past him, had to rescue Ironhide from rubble, and found out the guy wanted to stop Unicron by destroying the world. He wasn't having a good day. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 19|Return to Cybertron: Part 3}}

The day improved when Optimus arrived with a better plan: Cut off the Nucleon that Unicron's body was using for power. Bumblebee and Armorhide were dispatched to drain the Nucleon seam. This took too long, though, so Ratchet came up with a quicker alternative. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 20|Return to Cybertron: Part 4}}

[[Image:Titan MikaelaBumblebeereunion.jpg|left|200px|thumb|OTP!]]

Upon returning to Earth, the Autobots found the Decepticons had pinched their base and all 600 square miles around it. They retreated, leaving Mikaela in Decepticon hands; Bumblebee was distraught over this. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 21|Hard Target}} He would be part of the raid to get her back, knowing and ignoring that it was an obvious trap due to how much they owed Mikaela. The raid was successful and the two were reunited, awwww! {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

It didn't last long, with the Decepticon-blackmailed American government ordering the Autobots out; Bumblebee got dispatched with Ironhide on a mission related to this. The next day, Bumblebee got one last hour with Mikaela (and to beat up [[Dropkick]] as an "up yours" gesture) before joining the Autobots in departing... ''and then they got nuked!'' {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Revolution Part 1}}

Optimus had anticipated this though, and the Autobots faked their deaths with a decoy ship. Bumblebee, however, couldn't tell Mikaela this due to a decision to minimise any possible exposure. He was part of the spearhead team on return to Earth, intended to raise the Decepticon Heartland and teleport all the enemy there to the dead Cybertron. Mikaela was ''not'' happy to see him back, feeling they'd kept the plan from her because they didn't fully trust her to not be captured; Bumblebee tried to deny this.

In the final battle, Bumblebee 'tagged' Megatron and so is responsible for the tyrant being exiled forever—third time lucky!

In the aftermath, after it became clear the Autobots had just exiled ''themselves'' to Earth forever—"Hey, there are worse fates," said Bumblebee—Mikaela forgave Bumblebee. Both had a lot of clean-up work to do, but also a brave new world to explore together...!{{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|Revolution Part 3}}

===Toy bios===
{{notemoviebio}}

Bumblebee and [[Hardtop (Movie)|Hardtop]], as two opposing elite spies, have crossed paths many times across the galaxy in a grueling test of endurance. Lately Hardtop has been taking this rivalry very personally, turning it into a vendetta. It was a crack shot by Hardtop that damaged Bumblebee's vocal processors, causing the Autobot pain when he tries to speak. {{storylink|Hardtop (Movie)#Transformers (2007)|Hardtop}}

During the [[Mission City]] battle, Bumblebee required assistance and had to be towed to safety by [[Longarm (Movie)|Longarm]]. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Deluxe Class toys|Towed to Safety}}

With the initial threat over, Bumblebee decided to kick back and relax. Transcanning a rally car, he began hanging around at race tracks, pitting himself against the human racers. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Fast Action Battlers|Rally Rocket Bumblebee}}

He would later be sent on a mop-up duty, hunting [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] across the [[Middle East]]. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Legend Class toys|Bumblebee vs. Scorponok}}

Eventually, with pictures of him all over the internet, Bumblebee found to his discomfort that ''everyone'' recognised him... including newly arriving Decepticons, which put Sam and others in danger! With Mikaela's help, Bumblebee recoloured himself to help restore his disguise and make it easier to sneak up on the enemy. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Deluxe Class toys|Stealth Bumblebee}}

===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Alliance2_Bumblebee_takecove-rrk.jpg|thumb|left|250px|"Why do they always aim for the throat!?"]]

Shortly after the battle in [[Mission City]], Bumblebee's injuries were tended to by Ratchet while Ironhide and Captain Lennox's men searched for the creatures inadvertently created by the All Spark's energy. After his legs were attached, he rolled out with the Autobots to escape Sector Seven's inquiries. A month later, when asked by Lennox, Optimus Prime informed the human that Bumblebee had resumed his role as Sam Witwicky's protector. {{storylink|Alliance issue 1}}

[[Image:Alliance3_Ironhide_Bumblebee.jpg|thumb|200px|"I see dead people, I mean it, look there's one right over there."]]

Bumblebee accompanied the other Autobots to escort the convoy transporting the dead Decepticons to a navy base in [[California|San Diego, California]], where they would be taken out to sea and dumped. Optimus Prime gave the surviving All Spark sliver to [[Professor Vine]] of Sector Seven, but after deciding this was a bad idea later on, he sent Ironhide and Bumblebee back to the [[Nevada]] facility to retrieve it. Bumblebee raced ahead and arrived to inadvertently save [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s life by disarming the revived [[Wreckage (Movie)|Wreckage]]. A grateful Starscream shot Bumblebee as he was protecting the humans, {{storylink|Alliance issue 2}} leaving his vocal processor damaged. Though Ironhide praised him for his bravery and selflessness, Bumblebee regretted not being able to save everybody. By the time the Navy and the Autobots were out at sea to bury Jazz and dump the Decepticon corpses, Ratchet had repaired Bumblebee's body (giving him a modified vehicle mode in the process), but was evidently unable to fully restore his vocal processor. In an effort to prevent mistakes of the past occurring again and to protect Earth, the Autobots and the United States Military formed a special unit under Major Lennox and Optimus Prime's command. When the Decepticon [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]] was detected in [[San Francisco]], Bumblebee and the others rolled out from [[Diego Garcia]]. {{storylink|Alliance issue 3}}

After Optimus Prime destroyed a surprised [[Dead End (Movie)|Dead End]], Bumblebee chased Swindle onto the deserted Golden Gate Bridge. Though cornered, the Decepticon was amused that they had sent his old nemesis Bumblebee against him, and quickly set to clobbering the Autobot. Major [[William Lennox|Lennox]] distracted the Decepticon, allowing Bumblebee to pay Swindle back for his inept attempt to torture him thousands of years ago. On the plane trip back to Diego Garcia, Lennox and Optimus agreed that Sam Witwicky would become the target of the Decepticons again, and that he ''must'' be protected. Bumblebee was chosen to act as Sam's guardian again, and before he left, Prime pressed upon him that the protection of the boy was his first priority. {{storylink|Alliance issue 4}}
{{-}}
{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Tales of the Fallen issue 1}}

===''The Veiled Threat'' prequel novel===
{{Note|The events of ''The Veiled Threat'' take place during [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[Alliance (comic)|Alliance]]'' comic.}}

Bumblebee does not appear in the novel, but NEST personnel mention that he is guarding Sam Witwicky.

{{storylink|The Veiled Threat}}

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comics===

[[Image:Titan2_BumblebeePOV.jpg|left|thumb|200px|[[Robo-Vision]]!]]

Bumblebee was driven by the Witwickys to [[Princeton University|Sam's college]], where he quietly endured their bickering while scanning everything around him for potential threats. When he picked up radio transmissions from two new Autobots, he drove off into battle, and saved [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] from being slaughtered by [[Ransack (ROTF)|the Decepticon Ransack]]. But with the villain threatening a long game, Bumblebee knew that here came trouble... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.2|Dogfight!}}

Speaking of trouble, poor Bumblebee ended up as the twin's minder. You can guess how well ''that'' went... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|Learning Curve}}

{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Mark Ryan]] (dialogue cut from final movie)

[[Image:ROTF Sam Bumblebee cry.jpg|thumb|left|250px|[[Humanization]] included.]]
Bumblebee was dozing in the Witwicky garage the day Sam was packing for [[Princeton University]] when he heard the boy scream out his name. Bumblebee drove through, transformed and started blasting away at [[Allspark Mutation|Allspark Mutations]] of the Witwicky kitchen appliances. [[Judy Witwicky]] was horrified that Bumblebee blew up much of their house, but he shrugged her off and went back into the garage. As firefighters and local police arrived, Sam and [[Mikaela Banes]] went inside the garage. Mikaela asked whether Bumblebee was still having voice problems, to which Sam replied the Autobot was just playing it up. Sam revealed he did not want Bumblebee to come to college as he wanted a normal life, and he couldn't do that with Bumblebee watching over him. Bumblebee was heartbroken and began crying, refusing to listen anymore.

However, [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] was having difficulties with [[NEST]] director [[Theodore Galloway]], who believed protecting the human race required drawing away the Decepticons from Earth by making the Autobots leave. Optimus believed Sam would be a worthy ambassador to convince the [[President of the United States]] otherwise. Bumblebee picked up Sam from a frat party, only to get an unwanted passenger in [[Alice]]. Bumblebee knew something wasn't right about the girl interested in Sam, smashing her head against his dashboard, and dousing her in liquid to get rid of her. Bumblebee dropped Sam off to meet Optimus at a graveyard, where the boy turned down Optimus' offer.

When [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] returned from the dead, Bumblebee was deployed to rescue Sam, Mikaela and [[Leo Spitz]], driving away with the latter two while Optimus drove off with Sam. Optimus died protecting the boy, and Bumblebee took him with [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] to an abandoned prison where they would be safe. Following Optimus' death, [[The Fallen]] and a new army of Decepticons struck out across Earth and announced their existence, promising to leave if they were given Witwicky. Bumblebee was now protecting a fugitive.

Under Leo's suggestion, the group came to [[New York City]] to meet his internet rival, the Robo-Warrior. As it turned out, the Robo-Warrior was none other than Bumblebee's former lubrication post, [[Seymour Simmons]], who elaborated on evidence of the [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seekers]] that came to Earth before Megatron and the All Spark. Bumblebee watched from the sideline as the humans and [[Wheelie (ROTF)|Wheelie]] awoke [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]], who transported them to [[Egypt]], which unfortunately sent Bumblebee crash landing near Sam. Jetfire explained the origins of the [[Seven Primes]] and the treasons of [[The Fallen]], mentioning the [[Matrix of Leadership]], which Sam believed could be used to resurrect Optimus Prime. Bumblebee continued his role as chauffeur, transporting the humans to [[Petra]], the supposed location of the [[Tomb of the Primes]]. However, Petra appeared to be a dead end, and the Twins got into an argument of why they were following Sam around, which, knowing the Twins, got violent. As their brawl threatened to crush the humans in the close quarters, Bumblebee picked his two subordinates up in each hand, slammed them together, and threw them out of the temple. However, the Twins' brawl had managed to unearth the Tomb of the Primes, and Bumblebee further opened the hole with his plasma cannon, where they found the Matrix...which instantly turned to dust. Oops.

[[Image:ROTF movie BumblebeevsRampage.jpg|thumb|200px|Move your body Rampage! Yeah, like that, gymnastics are really easy when you have two legs. Oh wait...]]

While heading back to Egypt, the Autobots came under assault by Starscream, and it was decided that Sam and Mikaela would take the Matrix dust to Prime's body while Bumblebee, Simmons, Leo, and the Twins would lead Starscream and the Decepticons away. When it became apparent that Starscream was no longer pursuing them, Bumblebee left to rejoin Sam. Heading to the abandoned town where Sam and Mikaela were, Bumblebee found that [[Ron Witwicky|Ron]] and [[Judy Witwicky]] had been captured by the Decepticons, and were being held by [[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage]]. Noticing Bumblebee, Sam distracted the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]] long enough for Bumblebee to jump him. While Bumblebee had Rampage on the ropes, [[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage]] jumped Bumblebee, but the plucky Autobot managed to fight off Ravage and ''rip out his spine''. Ouch. With Ravage dispatched, Bumblebee managed to tear off Rampage's arms and distend his head. Sam ordered Bumblebee to take his parents to safety, while he continued his quest to save Optimus.

However, during Sam's flight to Optimus's body, Megatron caught up and blasted the boy, evidently killing him. Bumblebee returned to the scene with Sam's parents, and broke down in grief. However, the human miraculously survived the attack, and with the reformed Matrix of Leadership, resurrected Optimus Prime. Together, the assembled Autobots and humans watched as Optimus combined with the remains of Jetfire, destroyed the harvester and killed The Fallen. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)}}
{{-}}

===IDW ''Tales of the Fallen'' comics===

==Games==
==="Flight of the Bumblebee" online game===
At some point in time Bumblebee was trapped in a canyon with several Decepticons, among them Brawl, Barricade, Wreckage, and Scorponok. He valiantly fought through them all to make it to the other side. He did it without even bending a fender. {{storylink|Flight of the Bumblebee|Flight of the Bumblebee}}

===''Transformers: The Game''===
(No voice actor, considering the fact that his voice box got blown before the events of the game)

[[Image:TransformersTheGame wallpaper BumblebeeVsBarricade.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Coming up with a Flight of the Bumblebee joke would be too easy.]]

Bumblebee landed in Tranquility while being briefed by Optimus Prime on his mission to find clues on the All Spark. While on Earth, he took the form of a beat-up 1976 Chevrolet Camaro in possibly a dump or a demolitions bay. Some Decepticon drones were also in Tranquility at a nearby construction site, so Bumblebee confronted and destroyed the drones before any civilian casualties could ensue.<ref>Even though in the game, you actually can't step on or run over civilians.</ref> Prime detected a Cybertronian code matching that on an artifact owned by a boy named Sam Witwicky, who was reported to be buying a car at Bobby Bolivia's. Unfortunately, some more drones heard of Prime's report, so Bumblebee had to get involved in a high-speed car chase and defeat the drones.

With Sam buying the Camaro-ed Bumblebee, the first phase of finding the All Spark was complete. The next day, Prime warned Bumblebee that the Decepticon named Barricade was also on Earth and threatening to take Sam and his new female friend, Mikaela. So the Autobot had to incapacitate the arm-spinning, spike-punching, tantrum-throwing Decepticon while the humans escaped. Now that Bumblebee knew of the Decepticons' growing involvement in finding the All Spark's location, he obviously needed help. The only problem now with the Autobots' landing was their radar systems. The Decepticons had built radio towers throughout Tranquility to mess up any aircraft radar. Naturally, Bumblebee went to the scene and destroyed the towers. With the Autobots having landed, it was time to find the All Spark.

Optimus Prime explained to Sam and Mikaela about the All Spark, the importance of the glasses, and Humanity's fate. Before moving on the matter at hand, Mikaela questioned Bumblebee's alt-mode being such a beater. The mildly insulted Autobot then copied a more current version of the Camaro (2009 Concept). Later, a government group called Sector Seven went after the Autobots with their helicopters and cars. After Jazz's successful distraction, Sector Seven then switched their sights to Bumblebee, who got captured, but then got away with the efforts of Prime.

Sector Seven sent Bumblebee to Hoover Dam. The Autobot immediately saw the All Spark and a frozen Megatron. After a mysterious blackout, Bumblebee got free and started to shut down the power faster by ripping out the mainframe, blowing up the cooling fans, and removing nuclear canisters from their generators. The All Spark was his, but he had to wait for it to shrink while fending off Sector Seven troops, a lot of Energon drones, and a defrosting Megatron. (Oy!) Eventually, Sam and Mikaela got to the dam and fled with Bumblebee to Mission City before Megatron could get his huge, pointy clutches near the cube.

The Autobots' first priority was then keeping the cube from Megatron. Unfortunately for Bumblebee, he crashed into a building due to interference from energon drones generated by the cube's radiation. Ironhide came in and helped. While the rest of the Autobots fought the Decepticons, Bumblebee had one final showdown with Barricade. After a lot of punches, blasts, and car chases, Barricade finally went down for good. Megatron then went to the scene and incapacitated the wounded Autobot with one shot from his fusion cannon. Bumblebee urged the two humans to take the cube to Optimus for he could not go on any longer.

After the battle was won by the Autobots, Bumblebee struck a pose with the other remaining four as they listened in on Prime's final speech. {{storylink|Transformers The Game (console)|Transformers The Game (console)}}

===''Transformers: Autobots''===
Bumblebee arrived in Tranquility to meet up with [[Create-A-Bot (Autobot)|Create-A-Bot]], and after a short discussion created from radio sound clips, instructed Create-a-Bot to scan a number of vehicles, the last of which was a Decepticon. After a short battle, Bumblebee then used Create-a-Bot's mad h4x0r skills to break into the internet and find the location of [[Archibald Witwicky]]'s glasses, which turned out to be conveniently in Tranquility. Going to retrieve them, Bumblebee arrived at the Witwicky house to find [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]], who then blew up a car and ran, blaming the explosion on the yellow car now chasing him down the highway. Meeting on a bridge, they fought. Once Bumblebee won, Barricade once again ran.

Later, Bumblebee received a mission to destroy several [[Sector Seven]] turrets designed to shoot down the reported [[Non-Biological Extraterrestrial|N.B.E.s]] seen around the city. Afterward, he served as a distraction, driving to various markers to fight off the police while the other Autobots did their thing. Once that task was completed, he got captured by S7 forces and taken to Hoover Dam, where he had to be rescued by the others. Once free of his restraints, he searched the base for the All Spark, finding it in the deepest part of the dam. Upon being discovered, the All Spark turned the site's computers into mechanical scorpions...to defend itself. From the good guys. After retrieving the All Spark, Bumblebee had to escape in under 30 seconds to avoid getting locked in. After a quick getaway with Create-a-Bot providing cover fire, they met with Optimus. Following another quick gun-and-cover mission, a drone and Barricade were waiting for a two-on-two battle, in which Prime had to keep both Bumblebee and himself alive.

Finally, Bumblebee's last mission once again took place in Tranquility. All Spark in hand, he had to run to meet up with the Autobots, avoiding as many Decepticons as possible, within a time limit. Blackout was gunning for him the entire time, and lots of Decepticons were in the way. Once there, Create-a-Bot needed to keep Bumblebee from being [[Blastification|blasted]] into [[Slag (slang)|slag]] as they raced to meet up with Optimus. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Autobots}}

===''Transformers: Decepticons''===
After sending troops to slow down Barricade and the Decepticon [[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|Create-A-Bot]], Bumblebee showed up in person to take care of business himself, serving as little more than a distraction. After running away, Bumblebee later acquired the All Spark, transporting it across Tranquility while [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] gave chase. Stopping in the suburbs, Starscream pounded Bumblebee's face to custard and pried the All Spark from his cold, non-functioning fingers. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Decepticons}}
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Mark Ryan]]
====''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game (Xbox 360/Sony PS3/PC)====
=====Autobot campaign=====
{{charstubfiction}}

=====Decepticon campaign=====
{{charstubfiction}}

==Toys==
{{main|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys}}

==Merchandise==
{{main|Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Merchandise}}

==''Second Life''==
In the online virtual world simulation/game ''Second Life'', there is a full replica of the Sector Seven base which contains a giant discussion room where Michael Bay held a question board. This room contains a giant frozen Megatron replica and free avatars of both Bumblebee and Barricade. Both freebies are non-transforming. Also, the Bumblebee avatar has his battle mask down and it can't be raised. However, some sellers have created a transforming version.

==Trivia==
* According to an article on [http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=121138?imw=Y#12 Edmunds.com], the film makers wanted Bumblebee's original Earth form to be the 1976 iteration of the Camaro because it was the worst Camaro possible that also had chrome bumpers.

* The same article indicates that the 1976 Camaros used in the film were all purchased via online auction for under $6000 each, one for less than $2000. That one didn't run.

* One of the 1976 Camaros was sold on eBay. The bidding ended on July 18, 2007; the final price was $40,100.01.

* The Bumblebee computer-generated model consisted of 7608 individual parts, 1,511,727 polygons, 19,722 rig nodes, and 8094 texture maps. The volume of all the pieces came to 1069.01 cubic feet.<ref>Robertson, Barbara (2007). Heavy Metal. ''Computer Graphics, 30''(7), 12-17.</ref>

* Bumblebee stands approximately 16 feet tall, according to the [[Transformers The Game|official game]] strategy guide

* Bumblebee's character animation is based on the performance of [[wikipedia:Michael_J._Fox|Michael J. Fox]] in the ''[[wikipedia:Back_to_the_Future|Back to the Future]]'' movies.<ref>From ''Cinefex'' magazine, issue number 111, published October 2007.</ref>

* The 2008 Concept Camaro used for Bumblebee in the first movie was built by Saleen in 30 days, using a heavily modified 2006 Pontiac GTO body as the basis. The '08 Camaro was not in production at the time that the first film was being made, hence an identical mock-up was needed to fill the role.<ref>[http://www.saleen.com/transformers.htm Saleen article about the construction of the Barricade and Bumblebee vehicles]</ref>

[[Image:MovieBumblebeeStinger.jpg|right|150px|thumb|He uses it once, then dies.]]
* Bumblebee is equipped with a pair of arm-mounted electrical "[[stinger]]s."<ref>Bumblebee's [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/Battle-Bios.cfm Battle Bio] at Hasbro.com</ref> The stingers were ultimately not featured in the movies, but influenced [[Bumblebee (Animated)|other media]].

* Speaking of weapons, for someone whose main job is being subtle, Bumblebee is quite well armed, with a cannon powerful enough to rattle [[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl]] and a ring-shaped light missile launcher in either shoulder. He is also a capable close-combat fighter, as seen in his fight against [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]].

* The Bumblebee Camaro '09 toy's blade weapon might be influenced by the arm-mounted stingers from early concepts.

* According to the [[Movie Prequel issue 1|prequel comic]] by IDW Publishing, Megatron ripped out and crushed Bumblebee's voice capacitor during the battle at [[Tyger Pax]] back on Cybertron. [[Hardtop (Movie)]]'s toy bio claims the damage came from a shot fired by Hardtop. In the film itself, Ratchet only states to Sam that Bumblebee's "vocal processors were damaged in battle" and he was "still working on them" after firing a single plasma beam at Bumblebee's throat; by the end of all the conflict (the climax of the film proper), Bumblebee has regained his ability to speak. Although it was not confirmed on-screen, screenwriter Roberto Orci did confirm ''off''-screen<ref name="Orci"/> that Ratchet's (regenerative) beam was indeed the reason. It could be that the doc didn't have enough time/resources, what with all the war and inter-stellar space travel, to fully perfect the healing plasma early enough. And even if he did, 'Bee took off for the Cube after only a marginal amount of repairs were performed on him after his encounter with Megs, so a vial of even faster-acting plasma could be sitting in Ratchet's lab back on ol' Cybertron, if the 'Cons didn't trash it of course.

* Just as well, Roberto Orci ''also'' admitted that Bumblebee's brief contact with the All Spark would be an equally valid (and an even more "in-continuity") explanation.<ref name="Orci"/>

* In [[Transformers (2007)|''Transformers'' (2007)]], Bumblebee scans a working, driveable new generation Camaro—conveniently with the same paint job as his classic Camaro disguise at that time—that wouldn't be released until some time this year (2009). However, it is possible that the Camaro in question was being road-tested by GM engineers, like they are doing in the real world.

* Although unexplained in the films, Bumblebee's vehicle mode changes appearance subtly between [[Transformers (2007)|''Transformers'' (2007)]] and ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''. This is probably because of product placement: Bumblebee's old [[alternate mode]] was an unavailable concept Camaro, while in ''Revenge'' he uses what seems to be the new Z/28 Camaro which would have entered mass production. Said car has now been canceled.

* Screenwriter [[Roberto Orci]], when asked, admitted there had been plans to have Bumblebee speak in ''Revenge of the Fallen''; however, ultimately they liked his "musical ability" too much, and [[Michael Bay]] wanted to focus more on [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]], since he thought kids would like the two characters.<ref name="orci">[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-movie-discussion/180451-welcome-mr-roberto-orci-you-may-ask-him-questions-283.html#post3785383 Q&A with Roberto Orci at TFW2005]</ref>

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/Bumblebee/bumblebee.htm Bumblebee at TFU.info]
* [http://www.seibertron.com/toys/index.php?f_series=40&f_name=bumblebee&f_type=exact&Submit=Search Galleries of various different Bumblebee toys from the Movie]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Exclusives]]
[[Category:NEST]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Live-action film ARG characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Toys with sound]]

2005 IDW continuity

2009-08-17T22:35:46Z

72.128.51.130: /* New alternate modes */

{{nav-G1}}

The '''IDW ''Generation 1'' continuity''' is the storyline of [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]'' reboot comic-book series, begun in [[2005]]. It is entirely separate from all other ''Generation 1'' fiction, re-imagining the [[Autobot]]-[[Decepticon]] [[Great War (G1)|Great War]] as a galaxy-spanning conflict with [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] abandoned as a dead husk and teams from both sides covertly operating on various alien worlds to defend or destroy the native populations — including [[Earth]].

==Overview==
[[Image:Escalation 1 a.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Remember that time when this didn't happen?]]
The IDW universe brings [[Transformer]]s into the modern day, dispensing with some of the more problematic elements that have dogged previous versions of ''Generation 1''. The Transformers here are relatively recently arrived on Earth; the traditional "crashed on Earth 4 million years ago" approach is not used. Alternate forms are largely updated to modern-day vehicles, with robot modes reworked accordingly.

The series is notable as a much more "cloak-and-dagger" world than many previous iterations of ''Generation 1''. Earth is initially portrayed as simply one of many battlegrounds in a galaxy-spanning war of subversion and conquest. Also of note is that there is a reason Cybertron is not the site of conflict: the planet is a deserted wasteland, a result of the devastation it suffered in the war. The Decepticons follow a [[Infiltration protocol|strict protocol]] of infiltration as they attempt to take over alien worlds. [[Alternate mode]]s serve a very real and important purpose of disguise, as discovery by natives is strictly forbidden by both factions. Open conflict is rare, and battles are often fought entirely in vehicle forms.

The story opens on Earth, as the Decepticons there have discovered a wildly powerful source of energy, and break protocol to secure it. This soon brings both [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] to the planet, escalating the conflict. The [[human]]s are deeply involved as well, both innocent bystanders and active covert organizations such as the [[Machination]] and [[Skywatch]]. Various plot threads, many of them outlined in the ''Spotlight'' series, continually thread into the main story , and echoes of the Transformers' dark and distant past are beginning to gather strength as well.

===Cast===
The series is not constrained by the needs of portraying a current toyline, allowing great freedom in cast selection.

The story opened with an assortment of the more familiar 1984 [[Autobot]]s operating on Earth, with some of their standard 1984/85 [[Decepticon]] foes also present. But the free format allows fan favorites such as [[Nightbeat (G1)|Nightbeat]] and the [[Battlecharger]]s to be thrown into the mix, and even almost random additions as [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]] and [[Dogfight]] have played roles as the setting expands and more Transformers head to Earth. Many of the latter-day ''Generation 1'' cast have been shown fighting the war on worlds other than Earth, and even a few ''[[Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'' Autobots have made appearances.

=== New alternate modes ===
Most of the Transformers seen in this continuity feature [[alternate mode]]s updated to the modern day. Here are some examples:

* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]]: Dodge Sprinter ambulance
* [[Runamuck (G1)|Runamuck]] and [[Runabout]]: Chevrolet Camaro SS
* [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]], [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] and [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]: F-22 "Raptor", but later they take the form of the older F-15 "Eagle" in ''[[All Hail Megatron]]'' for apparently no reason.
* [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]: Nissan 350Z police car
* [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]: Lamborghini Diablo, later upgraded to a Lamborghini Gallardo to match his [[Universe (2008 franchise)|Universe]] toy.
* [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]]: Dodge Sprinter van
* [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]]: Current-model Porsche 911 (aka 997)
* [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]: Started in Cybertronian mode, then reformatted as a Walther P99 (with silencer and sight, but no stock) for Earth
* [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]]: has an all-new transformation scheme with a robot mode similar to ''Armada'' [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]]. Initially his ground vehicle mode was an American M1 Abrams battle tank, but later assumed the form of a Russian battle tank (possibly a [[wikipedia:T-90|T-90]]) when the Decepticons were in [[Brasnya]].
* [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]]: had a new modern diesel engine train mode, traded it in for a steam locomotive for no apparent reason.
* [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]: Sony personal media player; however, he later reverted to his classic cassette mode for dubious reasons in ''All Hail Megatron''.
* [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] started as a Cybertronian hot rod, but was reformatted into a Dodge Viper upon settling down on Earth. However, by the end of ''Maximum Dinobots'' and during ''All Hail Megatron'', he reformatted to look exactly like he did in [[GEEWUN]].
* [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]] started in his familiar Cybertronian self-propelled artillery mode before being reformatted into a wheeled Earth armored vehicle (possibly a [[wikipedia:Pandur 8X8 APC|Pandur 8X8 APC]]).
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]]: Initially a Cybertronian hovercar, but later took the form of a Lamborghini Murcialago (though has a new transformation scheme, closer resembling that of Sunstreaker), and even later still a Lamborghini Gallardo.

{{note|In possibly an art error, one of the covers for [[Infiltration issue 0|''Infiltration'' #0]] features Jazz with his original Porsche 935 hood/chest, though it's possible that at the time IDW and artist [[E. J. Su]] hadn't finalized the designs yet.}}

====Exceptions====
* [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (although he possesses a new transformation scheme, making for a different looking robot mode to his most familiar appearances)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], though he started in his Cybertronian form, similar to his look in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s ''[[The War Within]]''. Note, however, that even in his "classic" mode Prime is given a sun visor on his cab roof/chest and an overall more streamlined and modern truck mode.
* [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] and [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] have their familiar modes, due to their travel to Earth in 1984.
* [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] and the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] also maintain their original forms, having been buried on Earth since the distant past. However, Shockwave's body has been slightly streamlined, and both the Dinobots' robot and beast modes have undergone some heavy reworking to better reflect current science. The Dinobots started out in their ''War Within'' forms however, and Grimlock still sports the teethed face, rather than the traditional [[mouthplate]]. In ''Maximum Dinobots'', however, he reverts back to a face similar to his G1 one, but with a big chin-like bit on the end.
* [[Sixshot]]
* The [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]]

{{note|The ''[[All Hail Megatron]]'' series appears to have more of the cast returned to their more familiar ''Generation 1'' alt modes, possibly to draw more fans who were familiar with the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original cartoon]] to the comic series, or because Shane McCarthy [[GEEWUN | does not like change]]. Also, the Decepticon cast by this point is nearly identical to that of the late Season 1 cartoon. Other characters have assumed bodies based upon their toys from the 2008 ''[[Universe (2008 franchise)|Universe]]'' toylines.}}

===Technology===
Several aspects of Transformer technology have been re-evaluated for the series.

Most prominently, the "facsimile circuitry" dummy drivers shown in the ''Generation 1'' [[Marvel Comics continuity]] have been replaced by sophisticated solid-light projections composed of "[[holomatter]]". Holomatter generators are built into each member of the Autobot contingent on Earth; they can function as an avatar for their respective Autobot, even quite some distance away, allowing the Autobots to covertly interact with a planet's natives.

The Decepticons, in a similar vein, make use of [[Facsimile Construct|facsimile constructs]] — synthetic humans grown in special pods from the bodies and minds of kidnapped "template" humans. These replicas are used to destabilize the societies of planets the Decepticons wish to conquer.

Both sides also possess a variant of teleportation technology, seen for example when Megatron travels to Starscream's [[Oregon]] command bunker. This "[[orbital jump]]" can apparently be coordinated from an ''[[Ark (disambiguation)|Ark]]'' spacecraft or the Decepticons' bunker headquarters. Nightbeat describes it as "not the most pleasant way to travel".

[[Size changing]] is a rarity, generally abandoned in these energy-short times. Megatron, originally possessing a tank mode, is encouraged by the energy-rich [[Ultra-Energon|Ore-13]] and takes on a size-changing alternate form when he arrives on Earth. His transformation sequence and its attendant mass-displacement process consumes a great deal of energy, and is thus surprising to the Autobots who observe it. Why Soundwave and his cassettes utilized it remains unknown, though perhaps it was a necessity to further his role as a spy.

Conversely, certain technologies did not yet exist at the series' starting point. Gestalt ([[combiner]]) technology had only appeared as a long-ago experiment, which yielded only the barbaric [[Monstructor]]. [[Pretender]] technology had likewise appeared only as a failed experiment, and [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] and similar binary-bonding tech is just made its debut after years of covert and illegal development. All of these technologies appear to bestow greatly-enhanced power on the users, to the point that [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] devastated the entire planet of Cybertron with his Pretender shell, and Monstructor easily defeated [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]].

==Media==
The continuity includes the following mini-series, listed in approximate ''chronological'' order:

* ''[[Megatron Origin]]'' — Four-issue miniseries. Megatron rises from a laboring miner to founder and leader of the [[Decepticon]] faction.
* ''[[Infiltration]]'' — Seven-issue miniseries (issues #0 to #6). On Earth, the Decepticons have discovered a potent new power source, and risk everything to exploit it.
* ''[[Stormbringer (comics)|Stormbringer]]'' — Four-issue miniseries (issues #7 to #10). On the burnt-out husk of Cybertron, [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] works to revive the ultra-powerful but crazed Thunderwing.
* ''[[New Avengers / Transformers]]'' — Four-issue miniseries. The Earth Autobots team up with the superhero squad the [[Avengers|New Avengers]] to confront the Decepticons in the country of [[Latveria]].
* ''[[Escalation (IDW)|Escalation]]'' — Sequel to ''Infiltration''. Six-issue miniseries (issues #11 to #16). The war on Earth breaks out into open conflict as the Decepticons attempt to make use of the newly-discovered Ore-13.
* ''[[Devastation (IDW)|Devastation]]'' — Sequel to ''Escalation''. Six-issue miniseries (issues #17 to #22). Megatron throws caution and protocol to the wind, unleashing his ultimate warrior, Sixshot, on the Earth-based Autobots.
* ''[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]]'' — Sequel to ''Devastation'', presented as a special series of four ''[[Spotlight (comics)|Spotlight]]''s. The Autobots abandon Earth to deal with the threat of the [[Dead Universe]].
* ''[[Maximum Dinobots]]'' — Sequel to ''Revelation''. Five-issue miniseries that features [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] and his [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]], [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]], [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] and the return of the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] and [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]].
* ''[[All Hail Megatron]]'' — A 16-issue maxi-series dealing with the fate of Earth at the hands of the Decepticons one year after the withdrawal of the Autobots at the end of ''Revelation''.

* ''[[Spotlight (comics)|Spotlight]]'' — A series of one-shot stories focusing on a single Transformer per issue. The stories generally fit in to various points in the Transformers' history.

==Timeline==
''See main article: [[IDW timeline]].''

==Production==
Initially, the IDWverse was been penned almost entirely by veteran Transformers scribe [[Simon Furman]], with the primary exceptions being:

* ''Megatron Origin'' ([[Eric Holmes]])
* ''[[Spotlight: Kup]]'' ([[Nick Roche]])
* ''[[Spotlight: Mirage]]'' ([[George Strayton]])
* the ''New Avengers'' crossover and ''[[Spotlight: Ramjet]]'' ([[Stuart Moore]]).

Pencils on the main -ation series were done by [[E. J. Su]] (with [[Nick Roche]] and [[Robby Musso]] filling in while Su was on paternity leave); a variety of artists have penciled the other series in the continuity.

However...

IDW decided to shake things up in an attempt to gain new fans. Furman's planned 6-issue ''Revelation'' was shortened to 4 ''Spotlight'' issues and its follow-up, ''Expansion'' was canceled in favor of a new series, ''[[All Hail Megatron]]'', which was written by new writer, [[Shane McCarthy]] and illustrated mainly by [[Guido Guidi]]. ''AHM'' was expanded from 12 to 16 issues to mainly fix continuity issues between McCarthy's and Furman's work.

Also rumored is an ongoing series with sketchy details at this time.

== Items of note ==
* The IDW continuity is equivalent to the [http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-616 Earth-616] from [[Marvel Comics]] in [[New Avengers / Transformers|some way]].

[[Category:Comics]]
[[Category:Continuities]]

Demolishor (ROTF)

2009-08-16T06:15:53Z

72.128.51.130: /* Notes */

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Demolishor}}
{{disambig2|the Decepticon excavator in [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen]]|the ''other'' Decepticon excavator in Revenge of the Fallen|Scavenger (ROTF)}}

:''Demolishor is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:Demolishor shanghai rotfgame conceptart.jpg|thumb|400px|Oh, it's that dream again.]]

The gigantic '''Demolishor''' may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he's smart enough to know when to fight openly and when to stick to the shadows. One of the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicons]], Demolishor arrived on [[Earth]] to find [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] dead, so he went into hiding, gathering other Decepticons who needed a big, blunt instrument to cower behind. Now in charge of this little band, he awaits the day when a new Decepticon leader will rise.

{{bigquote|This is not your planet to rule. The Fallen shall rise again. |Demolishor|''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''}}

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance4_Constructicons.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Impress the ladies with a new move...the incredible ''Double Pits to Chesty!!'']]

In the distant past, the [[All Spark (Movie)|All Spark]] Cube created [[Thirteen original Transformers|a race]] of powerful, trans-dimensional beings as the first inhabitants of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The Cube gave these beings mighty powers, as well as terraforming their world, but it was not limitless, and gradually became depleted. The first beings learned that the All Spark's power could be replenished by harvesting the energy of stars, but they were unable to locate new stars to suit their purposes, despite their amazing ability to travel between dimensions. Once again, the Cube came to the rescue, creating a race of workers, who had the ability to change their shape.

Demolishor (or a Transformer who shared his [[body-type]]) was among the very first of these new beings, one of several "builders" who would construct a [[Solar harvester|harvester]] when a suitable sun had been found. Once built, the device would drain the energy of these stars, thus replenishing the All Spark. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 4}} It is assumed that at some point during the civil war on Cybertron, he sided with [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], the new protege of Demolishor's only surviving ancient master, [[The Fallen]].

Many thousands of years later, Demolishor was detected in [[Shanghai]], [[China]], prompting the [[human]]-[[Autobot]] [[NEST]] team under [[William Lennox|Major Lennox]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] to move out. {{storylink|Alliance issue 4}}
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Calvin Wimmer]] (credited as "Wheelbot")

[[Image:ROTF-DemolishorPrime.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Prime is his bling!]]

NEST arrived in Shanghai with a cover story from the Chinese government that there was a chemical spill in the area. Major Lennox and his men followed a radiation blip to a construction site where a massive excavator stood. Suddenly, the excavator transformed and revealed itself to be Demolishor! In fury, he smashed his arms on the ground, flinging concrete pipes onto approaching NEST troopers, crushing them, before rolling away. NEST's firepower availed them little as Demolishor shrugged off their attacks and smashed his way to the nearby freeway. Most of the Autobots were soon deployed to deal with his running comrade [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]], leaving NEST with only [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] to deal with the massive Constructicon. Overhead, a [[United States Air Force#C-17 Globemaster III|C-17 Globemaster III]] circled, dropping the most powerful Autobot onto the battle field: [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] had entered the game.

As Demolishor rolled along the freeway, crushing cars and destroying barriers, Optimus intercepted him at an overpass and leaped onto his head as the Decepticon reduced the overpass to rubble. Demolishor declined Optimus' demand for him to "pull over" forcing the Autobot leader to fire his [[Ion blaster]] into the former's head, soon followed by Ironhide jumping on and shooting out his massive tires. The crippled Decepticon crashed into a warehouse district and was helpless as Optimus Prime, Ironhide, and the rest of the NEST soldiers advanced.

Standing before the "Punk-ass Decepticon" as Ironhide dubbed him, Optimus inquired if there were any last words he wished to convey. In defiance, Demolishor declared with his dying breath that they were too late, and that [[The Fallen]] would rise again. Optimus Prime replied in the negative and shot him through the optic, executing him. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

==Games==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'': The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Fred Tatasciore]]

{{charstubfiction}}
{{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (video games)|Revenge of the Fallen: The Game}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Voyager Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF Voyager Demolishor.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Well... this will be fun to pose.]]
*'''Demolishor''' (Voyager, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RD-03'''

:Demolishor transforms from a red [http://www.terex.com/main.php?obj=prod&action=VIEW&nav=prod&id=67dfc329929677047029393f18f590e9 O&K/Terex RH400 heavy duty excavator] into a very unique robot mode via a surprisingly complex transformation. His [[Mech Alive]] gimmick in robot mode is a drum in each arm that spins when you move his lower arm (not in the shoulders as the packaging call out states). He has real rubber treads that sadly can't move, and no little plastic wheels that help it move either. He is almost impossible to stand up—let alone pose—but it ''can'' be managed.

:In the film, Demolishor's vehicle mode features a lot more white. This toy's colors are actually a match to [[Scavenger (ROTF)|Scavenger's]] colors.

:Like several ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' toys, such as [[Starscream (Movie)|Voyager class Starscream]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Leader class Optimus Prime]], Demolishor is yet another victim of late mold changes due to 2008-2009 economic problems. On the back of the box, his treads are pictured as being made of several individual, linked plastic sections. The sections were apparently recast as a single rubber tread ring instead for the final toy.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Decepticon/Demolishor/demolishor.htm More information on Demolishor at TFU.info]''

==Merchandise==
===''Robot Heroes''===
[[Image:Robotheroestwinswidewaysprimedemolishorsideswipe.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And thus all was right with the world.]]
*'''Shanghai Shootout''' (2009)
:Shanghai Shootout replicates the opening action scene from ''Revenge of the Fallen'', featuring figurines of [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]]/[[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] (ice cream truck), [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]] (vehicle mode), [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], Demolishor, and [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] (vehicle mode). Demolishor is a slightly-oversized figure and the centerpiece of the box set.
{{comingsoontoy}}

{{-}}

==Notes==
*Demolishor is identical in design and vehicle form to [[Scavenger (ROTF)|Scavenger]]. In the film itself, Demolishor is mostly white with red striping and signage, but in other places his coloration matches Scavenger, such as his toy, his ''Robot Heroes'' figure, and in his appearances in [[Revenge of the Fallen (video games)|the video game]] and [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation issue 1|the comic adaptation]]. [[Repurposing]] is quite fitting, if one so chooses.

*Though likely as vicious as every other Decepticon shown in the movie continuity, Demolishor's demise could be viewed as a rather unfortunate moral grey area on the Autobots' part. Technically he was just hiding and did not attack until his discovery was imminent. To make matters worse his toy bio, while far from flattering, seems to imply that he "takes care of smaller frightened Decepticons out of the goodness of his spark". To top things off, his completely accurate statement that Earth was not the Autobots' to rule never actually implies that it is the Decepticons' either. Again, probably a monstrous mechanical bully... but still slightly unsettling.

*During the production of ''Revenge of the Fallen'', the as-yet-unnamed Demolishor was referred to with the simple if descriptive moniker of "'''Wheelbot'''". Although Hasbro went on to provide a proper name for the character, Demolishor still wound up being listed as "Wheelbot" in the credits of the film itself.

[[Category:Constructicons]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]

Jolt (ROTF)

2009-08-10T20:16:56Z

72.128.51.130: /* Deluxe class toys */

{{factions|autobot|NEST}}
{{disambig3|Jolt}}
:''Jolt is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:ROTF Jolt vehicle mode.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Kicking Decepticon Skid Plate and environmentally friendly!]]
'''Jolt''' has a tendency towards mischief making. Like any prankster, he's pretty impulsive, and if trouble rears its head, you can bet Jolt is going to be in the middle of it. Luckily, he's got the fighting ability to make sure his head stays on his shoulders, utilizing electric whips in battle.

{{bigquote|Jolt, electrify!|[[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]], ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''}}

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film===

When the Autobots mobilized in response to a sudden surge in [[Decepticon]] activity, Jolt rolled into action at the head of the pack, but he was not among the Autobot team who fended off [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] and [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] after the two Decepticons killed [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] in a forest brawl. Jolt reunited with the other Autobots before they headed back to the [[NEST]] base on [[Diego Garcia]], but the team was scarcely given any time to mourn Prime's passing; as soon as they returned, they were accosted by military forces under the command of [[Theodore Galloway]]. The emotionally brittle Autobots did not take this show of force well, and charged their weapons; Jolt began emitting bright sparks of electricity in anticipation of a fight, but things soon calmed down as Galloway announced that NEST was being disbanded by [[President of the United States|presidential]] order.

Jolt later accompanied the Autobots and their human allies to [[Egypt]], for a climactic battle against [[The Fallen]]'s [[Decepticon]]s. During the course of the battle, [[Sam Witwicky]] used the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to bring Optimus Prime back to life, at which point the aged [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]] volunteered to sacrifice himself, so that Optimus could use his parts to give himself a power boost. Following Ratchet's directions, Jolt used his electric whips to link Prime up with Jetfire's remains, generating an electromagnetic field that levitated and bonded the necessary parts to Prime's body, giving him a powerful new flight-capable form which he then used to destroy The Fallen. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)}}

{{Note|Jolt was not among the lineup of "new arrivals" that Galloway initially complains about. He simply shows up in a scene halfway through the film, with no real explanation.}}

==Toys==
===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Legends class toys====
*'''Jolt''' (Legends, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:''

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Deluxe class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_Jolt_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Beachcomber (G1)|Beachcomber]] would approve of this alt-mode.]]
*'''Jolt''' (Deluxe, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-19'''
:Deluxe class Jolt transforms into a blue Chevrolet Volt with translucent blue plastic windows. His alt-mode is very conspicuously split where his arms and legs separate during transformation. In robot mode, he has light blue "electro whips" in each arm which are deployed by turning a small knob on his wrist. His head features blue [[Light-piping|light-piping]] for his eyes, but there is a gray protrusion behind his head (which serves no purpose in either mode) which completely prevents light passage. This protrusion also prevents his ball-jointed head from turning other than in the slightest of angles. Turning his waist activates his [[Mech Alive]] feature, which consists of moving gears inside his translucent upper chest.

:The picture to the right shows Jolt's feet mistransformed - at least according to the instructions, which show that the two halves of his alt mode's back bumper forming his toes should be turned inward 90 degrees. Which depiction is the actual mistransformation is debatable, as the "official" transformation makes the left toe piece stand a couple millimeters higher than the right one due to the presence of a joining peg. His "wings" are also mistransformed in robot mode. They should point upward for greater screen-accuracy.
{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:JoltFAB.jpg|right|250px|thumb|A [[Volt]] named [[Jolt (G2)|Jolt]]—two [[Laser Rod]]s in one!]]
*'''Electro Whip Jolt''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)

:Electro Whip Jolt transforms into a slightly squashed [[Wikipedia:Chevrolet Volt|Chevrolet Volt]] with an unfortunate transformation parts separation line going right across his windshield. Jolt's robot mode transformation is reminiscent of Transformers car toys from previous generations, where the sides of the car are his arms and the rear his feet. Jolt's arms each contain a spring loaded "electro whip" that shoots out of them when a blue tab is depressed. Moving either of his arms up, then releasing it will cause it to swing back down, simulating a whipping motion.

{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Robot Heroes===
*'''Jolt and Ravage''' (2009)

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Trivia==
*Jolt was a last-minute addition to the film during the four-month rush to get a script done after the Writers Guild strike. The writers had to convince Bay that Jolt would feel like a true member of the main Autobot roster. <ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-movie-discussion/180451-welcome-mr-roberto-orci-you-may-ask-him-questions-190.html#post3231606 Roberto Orci discusses Jolt's inclusion in the film]. </ref> Ultimately, this wasn't what you could call a success: Jolt only appeared in robot mode in two scenes of the movie, and the character has no lines whatsoever. He ''does'' get a name shout-out, which is something, at least, but that doesn't change the fact that he was so disposable to the plot that he didn't appear in any of the tie-in comics, books or video games.

*Although Jolt never speaks in the movie, Variety had reported, and it was believed for awhile, that [[Anthony Anderson]] was to voice the late-joining Autobot.<ref>http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117940483.html?categoryid=31&cs=1</ref>

==Footnotes==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:NEST]]
[[Category:Autobots]]

Ironhide (Animated)

2009-08-10T01:04:33Z

72.128.51.130: /* Animated */

{{factions|autobot}}{{disambig3|Ironhide}}
:''Ironhide is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:AniHide.JPG|right|200px|thumb|Less crusty, but still Southern.]]
Even though he's now a ranking Autobot security officer, '''Ironhide''' is just a country boy at heart. Though his ability to encase his superstructure in a near-indestructible alloy meant he rose through the ranks in the military service quickly, he never quite lost the "awe-shucks" demeanor he picked up as a [[protoform]] in a rural prefecture of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Now going to strange places, meeting strange mechanoids, and getting shot at by them, he still finds himself wide-eyed at some of the stranger things in the galaxy. He's got a mischievous streak, though his pranks often seem a bit crude to more cultured bots.

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Corey Burton]] (English), [[Kaspar Eichel]] (German)

[[Image:Autobot Cadets.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Ironhide's young and Ratchet's old? ''Animated'' so crazy!]]
Ironhide fell in with [[Wasp]] from day one of boot camp, the both of them having high hopes for the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]]. The tough Autobot recruit was an early favorite of [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Minor]], who was duly impressed by his retractable armor. When resident screwup [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] kept getting the unit more chores and exercises as punishment, he and Wasp took it upon themselves to let the little yellow Autobot know of their displeasure frequently and in no uncertain terms. {{storylink|Autoboot Camp|Autoboot Camp}}

Years later, Ironhide was stationed at the Autobot colonies on the galactic rim, under [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime's]] command. {{storylink|Transwarped}}

He contacted [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] and revealed the Decepticons had begun an uprising, destroying a [[space bridge]] in the process. Before he could reveal all the details however, his transmission was cut short by the attack. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished|Mission Accomplished}}

A later attack saw him go up against [[Strika (Animated)|Strika's]] squad; while his armour held off her firepower, [[Oil Slick (Animated)|Oil Slick]] and [[Cyclonus (Animated)|Cyclonus]] eventually took him down. {{storylink|Transwarped}}

When news reached Cybertron that [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm Prime]] was really the traitor and not Wasp, Security Officer Ironhide searched the planet to apprehend him. All he found was Ultra Magnus, badly injured, mangled, and missing his hammer, uttering the name of who had defeated him: "Sh-Shockwave." {{storylink|Where Is Thy Sting?}}

==Toys==
===Animated===
*'''Ironhide''' (Deluxe, 2009?)
:A [[redeco]] and [[remold]] of the upcoming Cybertron Mode [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] toy. It features a new head to more closely match the character. Ironhide's vehicle mode is a futuristic Cybertronian minibus. At BotCon, Hasbro explained 'Either Ironhide got a new head, or [[Wasp]] did.' They went with the former. Good choice.

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Notes==
* According to [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] at [[BotCon 2008]], Ironhide's voice and manner are based on [http://www.calgold.com/ Huell Howser], host of several California TV travelogue shows.

*A [[Cartoon Network]] online game had mistakenly labeled Ironhide as a Decepticon. This had led to speculation that he was the traitor in "[[Autoboot Camp]]". However, it was revealed that Ironhide was ''not'' the traitor after all. Whoops. Take '''that''', spoilers!

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Security officers]]

Hightower (ROTF)

2009-08-08T06:57:47Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Hightower}}

:''Hightower is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Hightower.jpg|right|thumb|250px|He comes with a Hannibal Lecter facemask.]]

'''Hightower''' transforms into a gigantic truss crane.

When combined with his fellow [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicons]], he forms the left arm of [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]].

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' (movie)===

During the climactic battle in [[Egypt]] between the Autobots, their human allies and [[The Fallen]]'s Decepticons, Hightower appeared in a quarry with the other Constructicons before merging into Devastator to attack former [[Sector Seven]] agent [[Seymour Simmons]], [[Leo Spitz]], [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]]. As Devastator smashed away at the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] after shrugging off Skids and Mudflap, Simmons called upon the [[United States Navy]] to fire upon the giant Decepticon. The [[United States Navy#U.S.S. Kidd (DDG-100)|U.S.S. ''Kidd'']] fired her experimental [[Railgun|railgun]], smashing one of his arms to pieces and destroying Devastator. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

==Toys==
===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Legends Class toys====
*'''Hightower''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D7'''

:Hightower and the six other Legends class Constructicons combine to form Devastator. In Japan, the Legends class Constructicons are sold individually. He forms the left arm of Devastator.

:He might have one of the oddest robot modes to date.
{{Comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (Legends figure multi-pack, 2009)

:In [[Hasbro]]'s markets, the Legends Constructicons are sold together as a store [[exclusive]].
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Supreme Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Devastator_combiner_toy.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

:Strangely, Hightower's figure in this set is the only one accurate to the concept art in that he has no designed robot mode.

{{-}}

====Mega Power Bots====
[[Image:ROTF MegaPowerBots Devastator.jpg|right|300px|thumb]]
*'''Constructicon Devastator''' (2009)

{{Comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Burger King===
[[Image:ROTFMerchandise-BurgerKingHightower.jpg|thumb|right|200px|]]
*'''Devastator''' (2009)
:An extremely-simplified version of Hightower's vehicle mode is included as part of [[Devastator (ROTF)#Burger_King|Burger King Devastator]]. Though his ball socket is compatible with any of Devastator's limb connections, it's marked with a B to indicate he forms Devastator's left arm. Hightower seems to be the least [[Show-accuracy|movie accurate]] of the four limbs.
{{--}}
===Robot Heroes===
*'''Desert Devastation''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Grabby!]]

:Hightower is the sculpted left arm of "Desert Devastation" Devastator, a super-sized ''[[Robot Heroes (toyline)|Robot Heroes]]'' figure. He is only available in a multi-pack with [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] in their vehicle modes and [[William Lennox]].

{{Comingsoontoy}}

==Trivia==
* It appears that Legends class Hightower's robot mode is apparently improvisation on [[HasTak]]'s part, as [[Kris Carter]] has said that Hightower has no designed robot mode.
* Hightower and Rampage are the only components of Devastator who did not keep the names of their G1 counterparts: Hook, and Bonecrusher. However, for Rampage that's more because of a desire to avoid a [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|name reuse]] than the more [[trademark|usual reason]].

[[Category:Constructicons]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]

Longview (Movie)

2009-07-22T23:12:01Z

72.128.51.130: corrected the lyric referenced in the caption

:''Longview is an [[Autobot]] [[Real Gear Robot]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|live-action movie]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Longview robot.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"[[Green Day|Bite my lip and close my eyes, take me away to Paradise. I'm so damn bored I'm going blind, and I smell like...]]"]]
'''Longview''' is one of many small robots who was once a normal machine brought to life by the power of the [[All Spark]]. Not only has he got super-duper eyes for which to spy on [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], but apparently he can [[Iron Man|predict the future]]! He's just ''that smart''.

{{bigquote|Observe. Anticipate. Defend.|Longview's packaging tagline}}

:''French-Canadian name'': '''Jumelles'''
:''Spanish name'': '''Binoculares'''

==Fiction==
===Titan Magazines===
[[Image:LongviewPOW.jpg|right|200px|thumb|I predict continuity issues.]]
Longview was held as a prisoner of war in an automated Decepticon outpost on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], some time prior to the [[All Spark]]'s launch into space. He was rescued by a team of raw Autobot recruits being trained by [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5}}

{{note|Of course, this could be a different robot who '''coincidentally''' looks like Longview, what with the being not tiny and not born on [[Earth]]. [[Easter Egg]]s can really be something of a headache sometimes.}}
{{--}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
[[Image:Longview alt.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Longview always has his 'nocs]]
*'''Longview''' (Real Gear Robots, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MA-08'''

: Longview transforms into a set of yellow non-functioning binoculars. While he is constructed to allow light to shine all they way from the lens to the eyepiece, the image is way too small and blurry to see much of anything. He features a flip-up/down panel that reveals a viewscreen; the [[Hasbro]] version shows ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]] in assault-vehicle mode (though upside-down), while the [[Takara]] version has [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]'s head and shoulders. Like all [[Real Gear Robots]] toys, his robot mode is supposedly at 1:1 scale.

: This mold was also used to make [[Farsight T-20]].

*'''Robo Recon Team''' (Multi-pack, 2007)

: Longview was also available in a Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] two-pack with [[Spy Shot 6]]. Both toys are identical to their individual releases.
{{--}}

==Notes==
* The appearance of Crumplezone in the Hasbro Longview's imager is evidence of the Real Gear Robots' original release plan as late-series additions to the ''Cybertron'' toyline.

==External links==
*[http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/default.cfm?page=Products/Detail&product_id=19646 Longview at Hasbro.com]
*[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/Longview/longview.htm Longview at TFU.info]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Real Gear Robots]]
[[Category:Spies]]

Longview (Movie)

2009-07-22T23:10:40Z

72.128.51.130: edited caption, now that there's a Green Day article...

:''Longview is an [[Autobot]] [[Real Gear Robot]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|live-action movie]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Longview robot.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"[[Green Day|Bite my lip and close my eyes, take me away to Paradise. I'm so darn bored I'm going blind, and I smell like...]]"]]
'''Longview''' is one of many small robots who was once a normal machine brought to life by the power of the [[All Spark]]. Not only has he got super-duper eyes for which to spy on [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], but apparently he can [[Iron Man|predict the future]]! He's just ''that smart''.

{{bigquote|Observe. Anticipate. Defend.|Longview's packaging tagline}}

:''French-Canadian name'': '''Jumelles'''
:''Spanish name'': '''Binoculares'''

==Fiction==
===Titan Magazines===
[[Image:LongviewPOW.jpg|right|200px|thumb|I predict continuity issues.]]
Longview was held as a prisoner of war in an automated Decepticon outpost on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], some time prior to the [[All Spark]]'s launch into space. He was rescued by a team of raw Autobot recruits being trained by [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5}}

{{note|Of course, this could be a different robot who '''coincidentally''' looks like Longview, what with the being not tiny and not born on [[Earth]]. [[Easter Egg]]s can really be something of a headache sometimes.}}
{{--}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
[[Image:Longview alt.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Longview always has his 'nocs]]
*'''Longview''' (Real Gear Robots, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MA-08'''

: Longview transforms into a set of yellow non-functioning binoculars. While he is constructed to allow light to shine all they way from the lens to the eyepiece, the image is way too small and blurry to see much of anything. He features a flip-up/down panel that reveals a viewscreen; the [[Hasbro]] version shows ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]] in assault-vehicle mode (though upside-down), while the [[Takara]] version has [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]'s head and shoulders. Like all [[Real Gear Robots]] toys, his robot mode is supposedly at 1:1 scale.

: This mold was also used to make [[Farsight T-20]].

*'''Robo Recon Team''' (Multi-pack, 2007)

: Longview was also available in a Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] two-pack with [[Spy Shot 6]]. Both toys are identical to their individual releases.
{{--}}

==Notes==
* The appearance of Crumplezone in the Hasbro Longview's imager is evidence of the Real Gear Robots' original release plan as late-series additions to the ''Cybertron'' toyline.

==External links==
*[http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/default.cfm?page=Products/Detail&product_id=19646 Longview at Hasbro.com]
*[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/Longview/longview.htm Longview at TFU.info]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Real Gear Robots]]
[[Category:Spies]]

Leonard Nimoy

2009-07-21T23:14:21Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

[[Image:LeonardNimoy.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Bilbo! Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins - The bravest little hobbit of them all!]]
'''Leonard Nimoy''' (March 26, 1931-) is an American actor and director. He provided the voice of [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.

Oh, and apparently he also played [[wikipedia:Spock|an alien]] on [[wikipedia:Star Trek|some old sci-fi show]], alongside fellow ''Transformers'' voice actor [[George Takei]].

==Trivia==
*Nimoy is married to Susan Bay, a relative of director [[Michael Bay]], and apparently it was due to their considerable donations to [[Griffith Observatory]] that Michael was allowed to film parts of ''[[Transformers (2007)|Transformers]]'' there.<ref>According to Michael Bay on the ''Transformers'' DVD commentary.</ref>
*Nimoy guest starred in the first-season finale of ''Fringe'', which was created, executive-produced and written by [[Alex Kurtzman]] and [[Roberto Orci]].
*According to Orci, he was at one point considered for the role of [[The Fallen]] in [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen]].

==References==
<references />

==External Links==
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000559/ Leonard Nimoy at the Internet Movie Database]
*[http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy Leonard Nimoy at Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki]

{{-}}

{{stub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Nimoy, Leonard}}
[[Category:Voice actors]]

Megatron (Movie)

2009-07-18T17:47:40Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */ this tidbit was based off of a common misquote. It's actually "Only a Prime can kill the Fallen", not "Only a Prime can kill a Prime." removed.

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Megatron}}
:''Megatron is the [[Decepticon]] leader from the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]]. He is often referred to as "Lord Megatron". Known to humans as both "The Ice Man" and "The Mega-Man" and more formally as [[Non-Biological Extraterrestrial|N.B.E.]]-01''

[[Image:Movie_Megatron_Defiance3.jpg|thumb|300px|Friends, [[Trypticon (Movie)|Trypticonians]], countrybots, lend me your audio receptors!]]

Once the [[Lord High Protector]] of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the "[[brother]]" of the science division leader [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], '''Megatron''' is vicious, extremely powerful, single-minded in his goals, straight-forward and brutally direct. He is all "blunt force" in contrast to [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream's]] penchant for deceit and trickery. On the downside, Megatron tends to become so obsessed with the object of his desires that he can ignore "secondary" matters, glaring flaws in his plans (otherwise, he likely wouldn't have melted into ice-cold arctic water after being white hot from falling through [[Earth]]'s atmosphere, and spent ten-thousand years as a [[wikipedia:popsicle|popsicle]], and even crippling injuries in pursuit of the coveted item. Trying to talk Megatron out of blindly going for his goals is useless. He will risk his world, his troops, and even his own [[spark]] to achieve his goals; these things do not matter to Megatron. Even the destruction of the [[Autobot]]s is a secondary concern. In Megatron's cerebral processor, all that has become important are the whims of his [[The Fallen|master]] and, by extension, the [[All Spark]].

While [[Megatron (disambiguation)|some]] merely dislike or disregard humans due to the incomprehensibility of organics being a dominant life form ''anywhere'', Megatron feels a violent hatred towards them and seems to view them as only slightly above bacteria. Though his master suffered a very similar affliction due to the circumstances of his purpose of existence, Megatron's postulation is born from spending decades as a prisoner of sorts to them, causing a very extreme disdain. If there was no All Spark, it would not be much of a stretch to realize his ideals would have brought him to this planet anyway, just to cleanse one more planet of an "infection".

{{quote|You still fight for the weak! That is why ''you lose!''|Megatron to Optimus|[[Transformers (2007)|Transformers]]}}

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance1 Megs Prime argument.jpg|left|350px|thumb|"Know your place, boy!"]]

High Protector Megatron, the supreme commander of the Cybertronian defense forces and firm leader of all of Cybertron, once ruled the entire planet seemingly side-by-side with Optimus Prime, protecting their world against all perceived hostile threats. For generations, the two ruled in peace—Megatron firm, with Prime being fair, creating an even (if sometimes strained) governmental balance. When Commander [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] returned from his patrol in the [[Eshems Nebula]], [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus]] was reporting on his science sector's continuing excavation of the site near the temple at [[Simfur]] and the unusual pulse waves that the [[All Spark]] had been emitting ever since work began. At the excavation site, while Optimus' scientists were concerned with disturbing the ancient artifacts, all Megatron cared about was whether these relics might provide the same revitalising energy as the All Spark. He was nettled when Optimus asserted the sector's dominion over all scientific and archaeological discoveries and reminded his junior that it was his defence force that protected this world, demanding to be informed of all possible threats from the excavation's findings. When Optimus dared to remind Megatron of the military's treatment of such discoveries as hostile, Megatron told Optimus that when ''he'' tried to be the leader of Cybertron, he could make those decisions, not ''now''. When a mysterious relic was discovered, Megatron ordered it removed at once, a demand that Optimus disagreed with. Just as the pair were about to launch into another argument, Cybertron fell under attack from Nebula inhabitants. Megatron had the relic quickly moved to his quarters under the guise of protecting it from the invaders. Arriving to find [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] and [[Cliffjumper (Movie)|Cliffjumper]] seeking cover within the temple of Simfur, Megatron chastised their alleged lack of courage before he was hit by an alien tank vehicle. After destroying it, he told Starscream to keep Optimus' team out of the military's way and staggered back to his quarters in the capital of [[Trypticon (Movie)|Trypticon]]. Drawn towards the relic, he ignored his injuries and scraped away at the layers of debris encrusting it before losing consciousness. {{storylink|Defiance issue 1}}

[[Image:Defiance2_Megatron_warrally.jpg|thumb|250px|Mein Führer!]]

The relic used what little power it had left to repair Megatron's wounds. At first Megatron was angry, demanding the being to show himself to the Protector of all Cybertron. The relic explained that it was unable to do so without Megatron's help, and ''if'' he helped, the relic would make him '''Lord''' of Cybertron. The relic then fired beams of energy into Megatron's mind (turning his white optic sensors red), explaining what needed to be done, filling him with delusions of grandeur. When Optimus came looking for the Protector, Megatron had changed; he had become even more aggressive in his speech and demeanor, and what's more, he demanded Optimus gather his scientists to go to war. When Optimus explained the sector was not combat-trained, Megatron shot back that the scientists should have known what the aliens were after: the All Spark. Optimus refused, stating that the army's mission was of defense, and it went against everything their society was based upon to exacerbate war. Megatron slammed Optimus into the wall and stated that their society then needed to ''change''. He held a massive saber-rattling war rally outside Trypticon, demanding vengeance upon the alien aggressors. He claimed that until the war ended, he would assume full control of the military, and everybody would answer only to him. Megatron ordered all flight-capable Cybertronians accompany him to the Eshems Nebula, where they launched a surprise attack against the still-unknown aliens. Megatron fought his way inside the alien flagship and personally executed the alien leader. He then ordered Starscream and his units to conduct a war of genocide: ''none'' of the aliens were to survive. {{storylink|Defiance issue 2}}

[[Image:Defiance3_wearenowDECEPTICONS.jpg|thumb|left|200px|]]

Megatron returned from the front with news of their success and awaited further instructions from his master. The relic ordered Megatron to prepare the way for his return by expanding the army, and at the end, Cybertron would be Megatron's, while everything else the master's. Megatron was enraged when the relic informed him that Optimus had snooped inside his quarters while he was fighting the aliens, and convinced the Protector that Optimus was after the same power the relic had promised ''him''. Now seeing that there were "enemies" within Cybertron as well as without, Megatron arranged to have the "traitors" taken care of by ordering [[Prowl (Movie)|Prowl]]'s security team to arrest Optimus, and sent Starscream's soldiers to kill all bar Optimus. However, Megatron underestimated Optimus, who personally defeated Starscream's squad. Nonetheless, he used the survivors as propaganda that treacherous malcontents sought to betray them all, and declared that Megatron's followers would now be reformed under a new image and a new name: '''Decepticons'''.{{storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

Optimus' forces having eluded him for now, Megatron was given new orders by his master: build a [[Nemesis (ROTF)|mighty starship]] that would scour the stars for something very important to the relic's plans. The relic counseled Megatron to not make the same mistakes he did thousands of years ago, that his protege should strike without mercy or hesitation. The relic told Megatron the story of his mighty race, and how the All Spark granted them great power and created the Transformer race, but it needed to be recharged by draining the power of a sun using specially-constructed [[Solar harvester|harvester]] devices, and their under-construction starship would be used to search for the last harvester in the galaxy. When Megatron presumed to believe he would accompany his master, he was rebuked and punished. Much later, the ''Nemesis'' was finally completed, the relic praising Megatron for his fine work, and ordering him to stay behind to continue the war. Over the next thousand years, the Autobots and Decepticons clashed in a bloody struggle until Optimus Prime made his most dangerous gamble. During an assault on the Autobots personally led by Megatron and his hound, [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], the tyrant crushed an Autobot opponent's spark before casually tossing his corpse over his shoulder. He declared that the All Spark would be his, to which Blackout assured his leader that he would personally see to it. Megatron was pleased by his minion's loyalty, but decided to dispatch him to assist Starscream's unit to prevent Optimus Prime's reinforcements from entering Tyger Pax. He then left to meet his destiny, but it slipped from his grasp; Prime had commissioned the All Spark to be launched into the abyss of outer space. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 1}} {{storylink|Planetfall}}
[[Image:Movie Megatron Targetcomic sure.jpg|left|150px|thumb|"Sit, boy — or I'll beat you to death."]]

[[Image:MovieMegatron Bumblebee torture comic.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Better get some ice on that.]]
After realizing [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] had stalled him from claiming the Cube so the operation could be completed, Megatron tore off Bumblebee's arm—removing his weapon—and crushed his voice box, destroying his vocal processors so that the young Autobot would never speak of the affront to his destiny. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 1}} Megatron, believing Prime to be a desperate, inexperienced fool, gave chase. On the way, he detected the ''Nemesis's'' distress signal and soon found the mighty starship on a barren world, abandoned by all but his master. Megatron was berated for allowing the Cube to slip away from his grasp and ordered to thoroughly continue his chase. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 4}} As Megatron tracked the All Spark through space, he mused about his reasons for the war and how he and his "brother" were not all that different, as seen by Optimus' sentencing their home to a slow death by launching the Cube into space. Tracing the All Spark via energy signature to [[Earth|a primitive world]], he lost contact with it upon atmospheric entry and crashed into the planet's icy northern pole. Low on [[Energon (fuel)|energon]], his safety buffers exhausted, Megatron went into stasis lock. Millennia later, [[Archibald Witwicky]], the leader of the National Arctic Circle Expedition, discovered Megatron buried deep in the ice. Unfortunately, the soon-blinded Witwicky was eventually driven insane by what he saw, attracting the attention of a mysterious [[Sector Seven|group]] that sought to discredit his story and seize the mysterious "Ice Man". Six years later, they found the Cube. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 2|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 2}}

In the Earth year of 1935, Megatron was moved to [[Hoover Dam]], in extremely close proximity to the All Spark's final resting place, where he would remain imprisoned for the next seven decades. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 3|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 3}}

{{-}}

===''Transformers: Beginnings''===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Frank Welker]]

{{charstubfiction}}

{{note|Transformers: Beginnings is a condensed flash-animated retelling of IDW's first movie prequel comic series.}}

===Titan Magazines ''Transformers'' movie comic===

[[Image:MegatronMovie_GeoffSenior.jpg|right|150px|thumb|''The Beast and its armies shall rise from the pit to make war against God.'']]

The All Spark had not been blindly launched into space, however—its trajectory was leading it directly towards the [[Alkaris Anomaly]], a wormhole that could potentially transport the cube to any one of an infinite number of locations in the universe. Megatron was fully capable of catching up to the cube before it would enter the wormhole, but as he passed Cybertron's moon, he found himself ensnared by an Autobot tractor beam of remarkable strength that pulled him down to the moon's surface.

Enraged by the ignominy of it all, Megatron turned his weapons on the Autobots responsible, but quickly calmed down enough to realize that this was only playing into their hands, and instead ordered [[Brawl (Movie)|Devastator]] to take his place in the battle. Megatron swooped back into space, hot on the All Spark's heels, but was unable to stop the cube from falling through the anomaly. Determined to have the All Spark's power, Megatron chose to enter the wormhole himself, only to be spat out in some far-off star system, with no trace of the All Spark... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2}}

''This led into Prime Directive #2.''

{{notetitantlg}}

In another reality, he defeated Optimus at [[Mission City]], killed Sam Witwicky and took control of the All Spark. He was fully linked to it and drew on its power—"It is me and I am it!"—giving him greater might and the ability to heal any wound. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 12|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 4}}

After conquering an unknown chunk of Earth (including the entire [[United States of America]]) with [[Dropkick]] as his second-in-command, he used the All Spark's power to start turning Earth from an organic world into a new Cybertron. Optimus Prime lay frozen in the [[Hoover Dam|old Sector Seven base]], Autobot resistance was scattered, and NATO's threat to nuke occupied America was hardly much of one. [[Image:Megatron Bumbleslap.jpg|left|350px|thumb|"''Sigh'' Even mindless violence seems boring today..."]] The only thing bothering Megatron was those rebels breaking into Hoover Dam... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 9|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 1}}

Megatron personally arrived to face [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] and hunted for him, trying to bait him into appearing. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 10|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 2}} Realising the Autobot must have come with a human ally, he deliberately threatened to go after the human and thus got an emotional Bumblebee to make a defiant attack... at which point he backhanded Bumblebee into the wall and prepared to eviscerate him. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 11|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 3}} He gave the Autobot a chance at a swift death if he begged for mercy, and was quite impressed when Bumblebee merely asked "that all you got?", but was less impressed when Autobot reinforcements arrived. [[Image:Megatron Titan12.jpg|right|350px|thumb|Megatron's BDSM Dungeon just wasn't meeting expectations.]] He effortlessly smashed them aside and was about to kill [[Skyblast (Movie)|Skyblast]] when a new challenger arrived: the revived Optimus! {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 12|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 4}}

Optimus Prime got the snot beaten out of him, every attack he landed on Megatron being repaired by All Spark power. However, he distracted Megatron long enough for Bumblebee to hit him with the ''other'' thing they'd broken into the Dam for: Sector Seven's greatest weapon, a nanovirus that targeted All Spark operation frequencies. Infected, the tyrant was consumed from within by his own power and collapsed dead. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 13|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 5}}

Or so it appeared. He'd downloaded his mind into the All Spark interface module, knowing Starscream would take it and assimilate it into himself. And so Megatron was able to be a voice in Starscream's head for weeks and weeks—and finally, when Starscream had suffered a setback and wanted a plan to stop the Autobots, Megatron gave him one: to let him out... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

While Starscream didn't, he ''did'' follow Megatron's tactical suggestions. He had the Decepticons use both carrot (promise of truce) ''and'' stick (multiple attacks) to make the US government, prompted by [[Theodore Allen|the mind-controlled President Allen]], boot out the Autobots—and then nuke them as they left, giving the Decepticons a clear shot at reconquest! {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Revolution Part 1}} This plan backfired when [[Stockade (Movie)|Stockade]] intervened, and Megatron visited a broken, gibbering Starscream to once again tell him the only way out was to release him and let him walk the Earth again. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Revolution Part 2}}
[[Image:Starscreamseesthings_Titan25.jpg|left|350px|thumb|''You're looking throooough me...'']]

This time Starscream ''did''... much to his dismay when he realised what he'd done. And so, when Stockade's New Decepticons stormed the [[Decepticon Heartland]], Megatron was there to "greet" them with fiery death!

Megatron fought Stockade in single combat, and [[Nucleon]]-fueled punches rained down on him—only for him to ''grab'' a punch and use the momentum to hurl his opponent, berating him for lacking clear ambition to support his strength. This fight would've carried on except then the Autobots turned up. Trashing a rebellion, conquering Earth, ''and'' killing Optimus Prime in one day?! WOOOOO!

But Optimus drew first blood, and before Megatron could truly fight back, he was forcibly teleported with his Decepticons to Cybertron. A dead Cybertron. A dead Cybertron that itself teleported to an unknown area of space, leaving them trapped with no way back and no way off, ''forever''.

{{bigquote|'''PRIIIIIME!'''}}

{{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|Revolution Part Three}}

===''Ghosts of Yesterday'' prequel novel===
"The Ice Man" was kept in deep freeze by [[Sector Seven]] in their super-secret [[Sector Seven High Arctic Base|High Arctic Base]] until they decided to move him closer to the [[All Spark|Allspark]] in 1969. The convoy was disrupted when the driver of the lead truck spun out causing the rest of the vehicles to pile up on the icy roads. It was determined later that the driver was the [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] spy [[Sergei Tasarov]] who had taken the place of the Sector Seven agent Peter Hodgson.

While the convoy prepared their defenses and a Soviet strike force attacked trying to obtain the Ice Man.

When Megatron came partially online, it was obvious that some time had passed. Not only was he encased in a primitive transport, but there were [[Human|lifeforms]] fighting over him. Before Megatron could properly exterminate them, another crude transport crashed into his, causing a massive (but not spark-threatening) explosion. Megatron would have been pleased to know that the fire only added to his terrifying visage in the eyes of the maggots. Regaining his composure, Megatron noticed [[Phillip Nolan|an insect]] standing near him. As Megatron reached out to grab it, [[Thomas Kinnear|another insect]], this one terminally damaged, began firing crude projectiles which his body armor easily deflected. Waiting until after the creature had expended its ammunition, Megatron grabbed it in his hand, only to discover that it had packed itself with explosives, which threw Megatron to the ground when they detonated. Then, the aforementioned first insect began spraying liquid nitrogen on Megatron, causing him to go back into stasis. Unable to escape, Megatron screamed a dark vengeance upon his captors. {{storylink|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

===''Transformers'' (2007 movie)===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Hugo Weaving]] (English), [[Kōtarō Nakamura]] (Japan), [[José Santacruz]] (Brazil), [[Hans-Jürgen Wolf]] (German)

[[Image:Movie2007_Megatron_ArchibaldWitwicky.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Oh baby you know just the spot to turn me on!]]

Megatron eventually succeeded in tracking the All Spark to [[Earth]], where he rather embarrassingly crash-landed in the Arctic Circle and was frozen solid for thousands of years. In 1897, some 100 Earth-years before the arrival of the other Transformers, he was discovered by an explorer named [[Archibald Witwicky|Archibald Amundsen Witwicky]]. Captain Witwicky accidentally activated Megatron's navigation system and caused the coordinates of the All Spark to be etched onto the explorer's glasses. Megatron remained imprisoned in the Arctic, until the 1930s, when he was dug out by the United States government and moved to a secret [[Sector Seven]] stronghold inside [[Hoover Dam]]. In the years that followed, many modern devices (by Earth standards) were reverse-engineered from his frozen body.

[[Image:Movie Megatron breakout.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Mace isn't for spraying, it's for hitting.]]

In the present day, having searched the galaxy for the All Spark and being drawn to Earth, the remaining Decepticons learned of Witwicky's glasses. Through the Internet, they determined the location of both Megatron and the All Spark inside Hoover Dam. [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] infiltrated the dam and shut down the power systems, while Starscream attacked the external powerlines, resulting in Megatron's thawing out. Once again online, the leader of the Decepticons informed the worthless insects of his true name, shouting "I am Megatron!" (to clear up all that N.B.E.-01/Ice Man nonsense), randomly killed a few of them while destroying his former prison, then transformed and flew off after the All Spark again. He met up with Starscream on the outside, and, never one for pleasantries, demanded to know where the Cube was. Upon learning that the humans had moved the All Spark, Megatron berated Starscream for yet another failure.

[[Image:Movie2007_Megatron_Starscream.jpg|thumb|left|250px|You fail me once again Starscream... will I ever meet [[Starscream (Shattered Glass)|a Starscream that is truly loyal?]]]]

After Starscream and Devastator's opening attacks in [[Mission City]], Megatron arrived, and again declared his name (he really wants people to know who he is). The Autobots were so panicked by the sight of their long lost nemesis that [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] called for a temporary retreat. Megatron blasted [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] away when the diminutive Autobot attempted to attack, then threw him into the air before crushing him on top of a tower with his clawed talons. Jazz vainly fought on, asking if Megatron wanted a "piece", but doing little damage to Megatron. The Decepticon leader killed the Autobot by tearing him in half, callously declaring that he wanted "two".

[[Image:Movie Megatron jetmode cityfight.jpg|250px|thumb|Whoa, that energon's not settling too well.]]

As [[Sam Witwicky|the human boy]] ran off with the All Spark, Megatron ordered the Decepticons to [[Decepticons, attack|attack]]. Devastator attacked the armed insects, while Starscream and [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] fought [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] and Ratchet for the All Spark. At that moment, Optimus Prime appeared and challenged Megatron. Millennia in the ice had done nothing to lessen the animosity Megatron felt for his brother, however. Barely managing to growl out Prime's name, he transformed and flew at Prime at full speed. The Autobot leader leapt and grabbed a hold of Megatron, who slammed him into a building before flying right through a skyscraper. Both leaders landed in the middle of an intersection, but Megatron was the first to recover and leaped upon his brother, snarling that the humans were undeserving of life. Optimus Prime replied that they had the right to choose for themselves before he threw his brother off. Megatron declared that if Prime wished to defend them, he should "join them in extinction", forming his [[fusion cannon]]. Before he could fire, the Autobot leader drew his [[ion blaster]] and fired, hitting Megatron. The Decepticon leader shrugged off this attack, spun around from the momentum and fired his cannon, throwing Optimus Prime into the side of a building.

[[Image:Movie Megatron Samonroof.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Oh look I found a stray human... wonder if I can keep him as a pet... come on boy, don't be scared. I'll take you to a new home.]]

Megatron pursued the young human who had removed the All Spark from Hoover Dam, destroying everything that stood in his way. The boy ran to a dilapidated building that was the designated coordinates for a human military evacuation team, and Megatron smashed his way through, yelling that he could smell the human maggot. Starscream destroyed the helicopter intended to take the All Spark, and Megatron burst through the floor, inquiring if it was courage or fear that compelled him. Finally cornering him on a ledge, Megatron offered that if the human gave him the All Spark, the boy might live as [[Ravage (G1)|his]] [[Laserbeak (G1)|pet]]. The Decepticon leader relished the human's defiant refusal and destroyed the ledge the human was standing upon, sending the boy tumbling to the ground.

[[Image:Movie2007_Prime_Megatron.jpg|thumb|250px|Get up, so I can knock you back down!]]

Unfortunately, the human was caught by Optimus Prime, who then tried to escape down the side of the building before Megatron tackled him and sent all three slamming into the pavement. As a nearby [[Michael Bay|human bystander]] attempted to run, the Decepticon expressed his disgust at the insect's proximity and flicked it away. Protecting the young boy, Prime declared that their war would end here and it was now just between the two brothers. Though lusting for the All Spark, Megatron decided to indulge his brother's obvious death wish, declaring that only he was in this fight. Despite Optimus Prime's best efforts, Megatron was relentless, matching the Autobot leader with blow after devastating blow until he collapsed. Adding insult to injury, Megatron informed Prime that his defense of the "weak" was the real reason he lost.

[[Image:Megatron allspark merge.JPG|left|250px|thumb|Oh, he's dead. There's no way this will make him [[Galvatron (disambiguation)|even]] [[Galvatron (G1)|more]] [[Megatron (RID)|powerful.]]]]

The Decepticon leader turned his attention back to the human boy, but was suddenly attacked by the human fighter jets and [[William Lennox|Captain Lennox]]'s ground soldiers firing sabot rounds. Optimus took this chance, striking Megatron and knocking him down. His armor a damaged, shattered mess, Megatron ignored the punishment and focused on the human boy, growling that he would kill the boy and that the All Spark was his. As Optimus Prime ordered the boy to place the All Spark into his chest, the human instead pushed it into the now-exposed [[spark]] in Megatron's chest, overloading him with energy and extinguishing the Decepticon's life force. As Optimus Prime stood over Megatron's lifeless shell, watching the light flicker out of his brother's [[Sensors#Optical sensors|optics]], he remarked somberly, yet remorsefully, that Megatron had left him no choice, and removed a shard of the All Spark from his brother's spark cavity.

Megatron's body was dumped into the [[Laurentian Abyss]] at its deepest point, along with the remains of the other Decepticons, where the near-freezing temperatures would, hopefully, keep them dormant indefinitely. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)|Transformers}}
{{-}}

===Toy bios===
{{notemoviebio}}

Megatron was ''born'' evil, always wanting domination of everything. {{storylink|#Voyager Class toys|Voyager Megatron}} His fiery diatribes still managed to sway thousands, however. {{storylink|#Robot Replicas|Robot Replica Megatron}}

At some point, he took a stealth mode so he could attack Optimus without warning. {{storylink|#Fast Action Battlers|Night Attack Megatron}}

When frozen on Earth, he remained vaguely conscious and remembers a few things from when he warmed up slightly. At one point, his body was worshipped as a god by [[protohuman]]s. {{storylink|#Voyager Class toys|Premium Series Megatron}}

===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
In the aftermath of the battle in Mission City, [[Sector Seven]] hauled away Megatron's corpse along with the other Decepticon bodies. The clandestine human organisation brought the bodies to a secret facility in the Nevada desert, with the intention of getting every bit of information they can out of the dead Decepticons before they were forced to dump them into the sea. {{storylink|Alliance issue 1}} When he arrived to oversee the burial of those who fell in Mission City, Optimus Prime noticed the surviving All Spark fragment glowed when near Megatron's body, and gave it to [[Professor Vine]] for safekeeping. {{storylink|Alliance issue 2}} Weeks later, Megatron, along with Blackout, was dumped into the Laurentian Abyss. {{storylink|Alliance issue 3}}
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Hugo Weaving]] (English), Norio Wakamoto (Japan), [[Hans-Jürgen Wolf]] (German)
{{spoiler|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|July 24, 2009}}

[[Image:ROTFMegatronRising.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Now, where's Starscream? I want to give him a piece of my mind.]]

[[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] tapped into a conversation between [[NEST]] and General [[Morshower]], listening to Director [[Theodore Galloway]] mention that 1) a shard of the [[All Spark]] was in storage in [[Diego Garcia]] and 2) Megatron's body lay in the [[Laurentian Abyss]]. [[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage]] was sent to steal the shard, and swam to the Abyss with [[Scalpel]], [[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]], [[Mixmaster (ROTF)|Mixmaster]], [[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage]] and [[Ze little one|another Constructicon]]. Scalpel ordered spare parts be used to repair Megatron's body with the unnamed Constructicon, who was torn apart by his larger brethren, and then struck Megatron with the shard: the Decepticon leader was reborn as a Cybertronian tank with flight capabilities. Megatron flew up to the surface, striking a submarine on his way, before journeying into space to find the ''[[Nemesis (ROTF)|Nemesis]]''.

On the ruined ship, Megatron chastised [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] for leaving him to die on Earth, although Starscream defended that he had to take care of the [[hatchlings]], who were dying without [[energon (fuel)|energon]]. Megatron met up with [[the Fallen]], who was free of his sarcophagus but still weakened and in a life support chair. Megatron told his master he had failed to secure the All Spark, but The Fallen told of another energon source on Earth, which had been hidden with the mind of the boy who killed Megatron. Before they could act, however, Megatron was ordered to kill [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], who was the last of the [[Dynasty of Primes]], which made him the only one that could kill the Fallen.

[[Image:ROTFPrimePunch.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Body or face, Megatron? Not the face!]]

Megatron sprang a trap, dispatching [[Grindor (ROTF)|Grindor]] to take [[Sam Witwicky]], [[Mikaela Banes]] and [[Leo Spitz]] to him at an abandoned factory. Although Megatron would have rather killed Sam slowly and painfully, Sam had valuable information as to the energon source's location in his mind, which he had received from his own All Spark fragment. Scalpel's probes confirmed The Fallen's claims, and Megatron ordered Scalpel to get it out. Just as Scalpel was ready to dissect Sam's brain, Optimus and [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] burst in to rescue the humans. Optimus drove Sam to a forest, with Megatron in hot pursuit. The Autobot and Decepticon leaders transformed and battled as Sam fled. Starscream and Grindor arrived to aid their commander, as Megatron told Prime that Sam could lead them to another energon source. Kicking off his [[mouthplate]] and blasting him, Megatron asked Prime if the boy was worth the future of the Cybertronians. Prime replied that he'd never stop at one, then took on all three Decepticons. Surprisingly, he was winning, stabbing Megatron multiple times. As a weary Prime tore Grindor apart, Megatron stabbed him in the back and blasted him: Prime fell, mortally wounded. As Megatron moved for the boy, the rest of the Autobots arrived and provided enough cover for Bumblebee to spirit Sam away. Already injured from the battle with Prime, Megatron and Starscream were forced to retreat.

[[Image:ROTF_movie_MegatronStarscream_roofchat.jpg|thumb|right|250px|"That's IT! No more Mr. Nice Megatron!" "But you were never-" "SHUT UP!"]]

With Prime dead, Megatron decided it was time to end their secret war, and had the rejuvenated Fallen broadcast a message to deliver Sam to them across the planet. Megatron himself broadcasted the Fallen's message by rewiring the [[Empire State Building]]'s radio tower.

[[Image:ROTFMegatronSam.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Hey, he stole my purse! Wallet! I mean wallet!]]

He then flew to [[Egypt]], where nineteen thousand years before, the Fallen had built a [[Solar harvester]] to harness the [[Sun]] for energon. Megatron ordered [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] to destroy the pyramid that was built over the harvester, while he himself chased Sam for the [[Matrix of Leadership]], which would activate the harvester. Megatron almost killed Sam, but was overwhelmed by human gunfire, and flew off. The Fallen managed to take the Matrix and activate the harvester, but it had already been used to resurrect Optimus. Optimus combined with [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]] and destroyed the harvester, leading to a two on one match with Megatron and the Fallen battling Prime. This one went better for Optimus than the last one, as he used Megatron's own cannon to blast half his face off, and then severed the arm. Finally, Optimus used his afterburners to send Megatron hurtling through some ruins, ending his role in the battle. Megatron was so damaged he could barely call out for "Tharscweam!", but it soon mattered little as Optimus Prime killed the Fallen. Horrified at the loss of the power behind the Decepticons, Megatron acknowledged Starscream's advice that they should flee, but noted that "This is ''not'' over."

{{note|Adaptations based on early drafts of the script show Megatron hoped to become a Prime under the Fallen. However, during Optimus' final battle with the ancient villain, he revealed Primes were born, not made. Here, Megatron was angered that he had been misled, refusing to aid his master and vowed never to serve anyone again. Optimus is revealed to be an orphan who was "hidden" from The Fallen, further indicating he is not biologically related to Megatron. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (novel)}} {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation}}}}

{{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

==Games==
===''Transformers'' The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Frank Welker]]

====Autobot campaign====
After arriving at Hoover Dam, Bumblebee saw Megatron and the All Spark being held in the same room, which was guarded by lasers. After bringing down the lasers, Bumblebee managed to shrink the All Spark, while under fire by Megatron. Following the Autobots to Mission City, Megatron ignominiously "flicked" Bumblebee away, then tried to grab the All Spark from Sam. Optimus Prime arrived and the two fought in the Mission City park. After Prime believed that he had destroyed Megatron, Sam handed the All Spark to Prime, but Megatron jumped into the air with his flail, making one last attempt at nailing Prime. Prime caught the flail in its path and yanked Megatron towards him, shoving the All Spark into his chest. Pretty ruthless there, Prime, pretty ruthless. {{storylink|Transformers The Game (console)|Transformers The Game}}

====Decepticon campaign====
After learning Megatron's location, Blackout and Starscream sabotaged the dam's power, allowing Megatron to thaw out and awaken. After Megatron emerged, Starscream and Blackout bowed before their Lord, who declared that they had much to do. After the Decepticons dispatched the Autobots, Megatron, hoping to draw Prime out, went on a rampage in Mission City, declaring that the city would burn beneath his feet (this means toastie toes, but he's willing to make that sacrifice). Megatron and Prime played a game of cat and mouse, with Megatron tracking Prime and Sam, until Megatron finally destroyed Prime, then merged the All Spark with his spark, becoming even more powerful in the process (...wait, what?). After decimating Earth, Megatron took the [[Abraham Lincoln|Lincoln Memorial]] as his throne, then ordered Starscream, Brawl, and Barricade to finish the planet, before going on to conquer the galaxy. {{storylink|Transformers The Game (console)|Transformers The Game}}

===''Transformers: Autobots''===
Having landed on Earth some thousands of years ago, Megatron is thought to be frozen somewhere in the Arctic. As the Autobots look for clues as to his location, they eventually arrive in the frozen desert long enough to realize the humans have found him, as well as the [[All Spark|AllSpark]] (sic). Once they hack into the communications array at the base, they find documentation leading to the Hoover Dam, where the Autobots and Decepticons race. Some wishing to free him, most hoping to destroy him, the Transformers fight over the base until the Decepticon leader is finally freed. Once out of cryo-storage, Megatron proceeds to steal the AllSpark from the Autobots and begin a destructive rampage through Tranquility, until he is finally defeated by Optimus Prime and [[Create-A-Bot (Autobot)|Create-A-Bot]]. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Autobots}}

===''Transformers: Decepticons''===
With Megatron frozen in the Hoover Dam, the Decepticons fight to free their leader. However, as is quickly made apparent, Starscream and his young protege, a [[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|Create-A-Bot]], seek to eliminate their leader. This quickly changes, as Create-A-Bot is convinced by Barricade to free their commander, as Starscream is a back-stabbing bureaucrat while Megatron is a truly zealous leader. Even though both would kill you in an instant, Megatron would at least do it to your face so you could see it coming.

Once free, Megatron quickly takes the time to wipe out Jazz, who has been left at the bridge to help get rid of Megatron. After a fairly short battle, Megatron smashes Jazz into the dirt, leaving him to die. Back in Tranquility, he chases after Starscream, only to be blocked by [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]. Once the sibling rivalry is finished, Prime is left in pieces in the streets of Tranquility.

Arriving in the Casino Strip, Megatron finds Create-A-Bot damaged and Starscream flying away. Giving chase, he attacks his traitorous second-in-command, nearly destroying him despite his awesome All Spark driven powers. Starscream uses his last breath to insult Megatron before being killed by the tyrant. Returning to Create-A-Bot's side, Megatron takes a moment to call him a weakling and a failure, completely forgetting about the fact that Create-A-Bot saved him, led him to Starscream, destroyed the Autobots, and served him more loyally than most of his other followers. Taking a moment to let this sink in, Megatron went on to tell him that the weak are made to serve the strong, then ripped the young Decepticon apart and ate his Spark. Megatron then took off into the sky with intentions unknown. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Decepticons}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen:'' The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Frank Welker]]
{{charstubfiction}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:Movie Legends Megatron toy.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Just what the hell do I turn into?]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legends Class, 2007)
**''Japanese name:'' '''EZ Collection Megatron'''
:Legends class Megatron is the smallest mainline ''Movie'' Megatron toy, and boy, does it show. Even with Megatron's relatively simple transformation sequence, the sheer simplicity of the Legends class toy means that his vehicle mode is basically his robot mode splayed out, and again, boy is it ''obvious''. His robot mode is passably accurate, if by accurate one means he is now a hunchback with wings for legs, Dustbusters for hands, and an unchanged Alien Queen-esque head design.
{{-}}

*'''Generations Legends''' (Target exclusive multi-pack, 2007)
[[Image:TargetGenerationsLegends.jpg|thumb|Megatron is quite beside himself.]]
:A Target exclusive, this four-pack of Legends Class figures contains two versions of both Optimus Prime and Megatron, namely [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Legends of Cybertron Optimus Prime]], [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Movie Legends Optimus Prime]], [[Megatron (Armada)|Legends of Cybertron Megatron]] and Movie Legends Megatron.
{{-}}

[[Image:Movie Allspark Legends pack.jpg|right|150px|thumb|"Quick, Bumblebee! You hold up Megatron, I'll just fight with the others!" "...I hate you."]]
*'''Battle for the Allspark''' (Toys'R'Us exclusive multi-pack, 2007)
:A Toys'R'Us exclusive, this six-pack of Legends Class figures contains unmodified toys of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]], Megatron, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]].
{{-}}

[[Image:Movie Legends JazzIceMegatron toys.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Wow, those guys sure do grow up fast... No, wait. They're still puny.]]
*'''Battle Jazz vs. Ice Megatron''' (Legends multi-pack, 2008)
:Ice Megatron is a, well, ice-themed redeco of Legends class Megatron, which means his black paint applications have been replaced by blue. He comes packed with yet another redeco of Legends class Jazz, this time "battle damaged".
{{-}}

====Voyager Class toys====
[[Image:Movie Voyager Megatron toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Hey, I think I'm as weird as the War Within figures!... Nah, not there yet.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager Class, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MD-14'''
**''Accessories:'' Projectile
:Voyager Class Megatron transforms into an ice-covered version of his Cybertronic jet, with transparent blue plastic forming large portions of his vehicle mode, such as parts of his wings. This ice design is carried onto his robot mode, with his legs, shoulders and chest having some kind of 'ice' plastic covering them. With a significantly different (and simple compared to other figures of the same pricepoint) transformation sequence compared to his earlier Leader class toy, his chest frost lowers and his shoulders raise to robot mode position when you bring his lower body forward thanks to [[Automorph Technology|Automorph]] technology. He also has his fusion cannon in its entirety on his left arm. His wings feature flip-out "ice blades", and pulling on a piece in the back of his jet mode brings them forward like pincer claws. This design is remarkably similar to his Predacon- incarnation toys.

:Something interesting to note is that his feet are entirely spring-loaded, which means his foot and the two "rear toes" on each feet automatically close up when he's not standing up. Surprisingly, this helps a lot with the posing, as the feet's parts automatically position themselves for the perfect balance.
{{-}}

[[Image:Movie Voyager Premium Megatron.jpg|right|250px|thumb|]]
*'''Megatron''' ("Premium Series" Voyager Class, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Projectile
:One of the first figures available in the ''Premium Series'' (although not explicitly identfied on the packaging as such), Voyager Class Megatron was released exclusively at Best Buy on October 16th, 2007 alongside the North American launch of the ''Transformers'' movie DVD. Megatron has been completely redecoed, covering most of his previously grey parts with metallic silver paint and a black paint wash over the top of that. Black and gold highlights are used to offset all of the silver, while the transparent 'ice' parts are clear. These changes essentially make Megatron far more accurate to his movie appearance.

:Megatron is presented in robot mode inside a special display box similar in shape to the packaging for the Hasbro release of ''Generation 1'' ''Masterpiece'' [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]].
{{-}}

*'''Battle Over Mission City Megatron (Two-Pack)''' ("Screen Battles" Voyager Class, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Projectile
:A Target exclusive [[repaint]] of Voyager Class Megatron in primarily beige and chocolate brown colors with brown paintwashes, this version replaces the ice colored translucent plastic with two shades of translucent orange to replicate a look that resembles Megatron's firey demise (or atmospheric re-entry). Unlike the previous releases, this version's wings are painted to match the body color, so they give the appearance of molten slag. This version was only available in a two-pack with a mostly unchanged Deluxe Class [[Jazz (Movie)|Final Battle Jazz]] in reference to their fight on the skyscraper featured in the film. As the colors on this Megatron are very similar to the colors on the Screen Battles version of Voyager Class [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], it might be assumed that those two sets are meant to also represent the climactic final battle at the end of the film.
{{-}}

====Leader Class toys====
[[Image:Movie Leader Megatron toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|]]
*'''Megatron''' (Leader Class, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MD-07'''
:Leader Class ''Movie'' Megatron transforms into a silver Cybertronic assault jet. He is quite accurate to the CGI design... except for the giant mass of legs attempting (but failing) to hide under the wings.

:In robot mode, Megatron's sculpt is quite accurate, or as accurate as a toy based on his CG design can be. However, his paint decoration is quite inaccurate, with blue highlights on various parts of his body, possibly to allude to his pre-frozen state and to give a relatively monochromatic figure more color. More confusing is his jet black face, which obscures the sculpt's details and is inaccurate to the movie appearance's gunmetal.

:Megatron's right fist disconnects at the wrist to become the spiked end of the extendable "chain whip" weapon concealed within his forearm; pressing the black switch on the arm pulls the chain taut for a whipping attack. His arms also link together at the wrists to form a "[[fusion cannon]]," with the pod on his left forearm concealing the weapon's [[Automorph Technology|Automorph]]ing twin barrels, exposed by pulling a switch. His other automorph features include his wings folding up as his vehicle nosecone is moved into place, and his feet unfolding as his knees are straightened. Finally, pressing the button on his waist activates a small friction motor, which moves various torso plates and blades on his back into place, accompanied by a metallic shrieking sound and flashing yellow lights.

:Megatron's instructions summarily fail to actually tell the reader about how his gimmicks work. The whipping-action black switch for his flail is not mentioned; they do not detail how to connect the arms for fusion cannon mode; and the fact that the cannon is on a slider, allowing it to be centre-aligned, rather than sitting off to one side, is also omitted.

:There is an error in Megatron's legs, in that his left and right hip joints have been swapped for reasons unknown. Switching them allows for a slightly smoother transformation. In addition to ''that'', both of Megatron's hands have a finger misassembly. Two pieces are molded to have two fingers, while one is obviously supposed to be a thumb–however, this thumb is on the 'outside' of his hands instead of the inside. The prototype on the packaging's stock photos show the correct assembly.

:''Geez'', [[Hasbro]].

:Possibly a dropped feature [[for safety reasons]], the right fist (partly a projectile tethered to the arm) is designed to launch out of his wrist via a spring-loaded firing mechanism. However, the spring for the launching mechanism was removed, though the firing trigger remains. One can either find a compatible spring or steal the spring in his left arm fusion cannon, then place it in his right forearm, though this disables his fusion cannon-retracting Automorph.
{{-}}

[[Image:Premium Movie Megs.JPG|right|300px|thumb|"Hey, I got a tan!"]]
*'''Megatron''' ("Premium Series" Leader Class, 2008)
:Premium Megatron is a redeco of the previously released Leader class Megatron. The figure is now given far more movie-accurate paint applications of black, gold, & silver. Premium Megatron also features the classic transformation sound when the chest Automorph function is activated. The original "metal shriek" sound is retained when the sound button is pressed in vehicle mode.

:In the promotional photos of the toy, this version was pictured with a new vehicle mode face cover that fit the new head better. However, this retool was apparently dropped before actual production but can still be seen on the box back photography. All manufacturing errors from the first release are still present.

:Unlike some of the early "Premium Series" toys, Premium Leader Megatron was mass-released at a variety of retailers, instead of being an exclusive to any particular store.
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Movie FAB Megatron.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Just back from filming Predator 3]]
*'''Fusion Blast Megatron''' (Fast Action Battler, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:''
**''Accessories:'' 2 projectiles
:Fusion Blast Megatron is a simple version of Megatron with dorky-looking proportions in robot mode, and it turns into an even dorkier-looking vehicle mode. The transformation sequence manages to be even more simple and non-involved than the other ''Movie'' Megatron toys by means of an Automorph feature very similar to the early Beast Wars flipchangers. Moving his back section down causes the torso to flip up, hiding the head and positioning the arms skywards. Though the figure requires a little more repositioning and folding, most of the transformation is done with a single step.
{{-}}

[[Image:NA megatron FAB.JPG|right|200px|thumb|Racism accepted...]]
*'''Night Attack Megatron''' (Fast Action Battler, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' 2 projectiles
:A redeco of Fast Action Battler Megatron, this time cast primarily in black plastic, with opaque grey missiles.
{{-}}

====Robot Replicas====
[[Image:Mov2007-toy RobotReplicas Megatron.JPG|right|150px|thumb|This is heavy man!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Robot Replica, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Fusion Cannon
:As part of the [[Robot Replicas]] sub-line, this version of Megatron is a non-transforming action figure that hews very close to the movie's CGI model. It features joints similar to the [[Revoltech]] toys, though the elbows only turn from side-to-side, giving him extremely limited arm articulation. His forearms can be replaced with his fusion cannon accessory (or any other arm attachments from other Robot Replicas, which could lead to some fun Frankensteins).
{{-}}

====Titanium series====
[[Image:Movie TitaniumRM Megatron.jpg|right|130px|thumb|]]
*'''Megatron''' (3" Robot Masters, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Movie-style Decepticon sigil display stand
:''Titanum'' Megatron is a die-cast metal and plastic figurine, with an accurate sculpt based on the CG model owing to the fact he doesn't need to transform. Being a figurine, he only has articulation in his shoulders, neck and waist. Megatron comes with a Movie-style Decepticon symbol display stand.
{{-}}

====Attacktix====
*'''Battle Masters Megatron and Scorponok''' (Battle Master set)
[[Image:Attacktix-MovMegsScorp.jpg|right|150px|thumb|HADOOOUKEN!]]
:One of the many casualties of the shelving of Hasbro's ''[[Attacktix]]'' line was this Battle Master set featuring Megatron and Scorponok.

{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}

===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class Toys====
[[Image:Megatron ROTF Legends toy.jpg|After enduring countless "What do I turn into" captions, Michael Bay started from scratch.|right|thumb|250px]]
*'''Megatron''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''EZ-02'''

:Megatron transforms from a reasonably accurate version of his movie robot mode to a reasonably accurate version of his tank mode (with a teeny extra Megatron face in his groin). He has ball-jointed shoulders and hips in robot mode, plus elbow and knee joints. His alt-mode turret is formed by merging his left and right arms, which is a neat callback to the first movie's fusion cannon, but means the turret can't rotate side to side, only pivot at the barrel.

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

====Voyager Class Toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Voyager_Megatron_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|First blue, then green. Watch, in the next movie, it'll be red.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:''
**''Accessories:'' Missile

:The second mainline ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Megatron toy is more slender than the larger Leader class Megatron, as it was based (more or less) on the finalized Megatron design, and as such, features a sleeker tank mode, a large lobster-claw like right arm and a normal-sized left arm. Unlike the larger toy, the Voyager's firing missile is located on the left arm, and he's green.
{{-}}

====Leader Class Toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Leader_Megatron.jpg|thumb|250px|Beefcake!]]
*'''Megatron''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RD-01'''
**''Accessories:'' Missile

:The first and largest ''Revenge of the Fallen'' Megatron toy transforms into a Cybertronian tank, though it lacks the wings seen in the film. In robot mode, Megatron's entire lower right arm is a spring-loaded missile launcher and the tank turret's armour/shroud can be positioned over to partially cover the cannon, with flip-out sword blade, as seen in the early concept design.

:Pressing the Decepticon symbol-emblazoned button on his chest activates his light, [[Mech Alive]], and voice sound effects ("I am Megatron!"). The Mech Alive mechanics involve shaking his head to and fro while panels in his chest shudder. The European release (sold in non-English speaking countries) proclaims just simply "Megatron!" with laughter (although the voice and pronunciation are still in English). In the Canadian province of Quebec, both the European and talking American versions can be found, although due to language demographics, the European version is slightly more widely available.
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:ROTF_FAB_Megatron_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|I sure hope [[Wikipedia:Metal_Slug_(series)|SNK]] don't sue...]]
*'''Cannon Blast Megatron''' (2009)
**''Accessories'' Projectile

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

====Power Bots====
[[Image:ROTF_PowerBots_Megatron.jpg|thumb|150px|Super Fighting Robot- MEGAMAN!]]
*'''Megatron''' (2009)

This large action figure is a sturdy version of Megatron for younger children. Pressing the various Decepticon symbol buttons activates battle phrases, sound effects and light-up eyes, although for the European release, almost all of the battle phrases were cut in order to avoid language barriers (except for the occasional utterance of "Megatron" among a huge, long string of blasting noises).
{{-}}

====Robot Replicas====
*'''Megatron''' (2009)

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Burger King====
[[Image:ROTFtoy-RiseofMegatron.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Darn that [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]]. ''*yyywaaawwwwwwn*'']]
* '''Rise of Megatron''' (Kids meal toy, 2009)
: Rise of Megatron has a pull-back motor and can "transform" between flying tank and robot modes.
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Transformers (2007)===
[[Image:GummyCandyFront.jpg|right|100px|thumb|"Oh, How hideously (and deliciously) ironic!"]]
*'''Transformers Gummy Candy''' (2006)
:Made by the [[Frankford Candy & Chocolate Company]] at the behest of [[Hasbro|Hasbro's]] Cap Candy Company unit, this large Megatron-shaped [[Transformers Gummy Candy|gummy candy]] was available throughout 2006 to 2007. Also available was an [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]-shaped gummy candies.
{{-}}

===Battling Robots Bubble Bath===
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
[[Image:Megatron bubblebath.jpg|right|120px|thumb|"This is why I hate merchandising."]]
:Megatron's torso attaches to the bottle of bubble bath. His elbows bend, and his arms have a punching gimmick, to allow him to battle the forces of good. Pushing a lever on either side makes the respective fist punch forward. He's removable, though not as easily held without the bottle below his waist. Like many pieces of Megatron merchandise, this "figure" uses the older head design with blue eyes. The blue eyes are also the only spot of paint on him, unlike the elaborately decoed Prime.
{{-}}

*'''Megatron''' Burger King free toy (2007)
:A non-transformable version of Megatron, cast primarily in gray plastic. The toy's entire "gimmick" is that both arms rotate at the shoulder. Due to the strict [[For safety reasons|protocols]] of making a fast food premium, Megatron's sharp and deadly design was forced to be smoothed out. This had the unfortunate effect of making his sculpted details meld together and looking less like a killer robot and more like a melted clay man. The toy ''appears'' to use the earlier head render of Megatron's, but due to the vague detail and paint job, may also not be.

:The toy also comes with a purple plastic Decepticon base and a lenticular motion card with a surprising amount of frames of animation. These two pieces may in fact be the better part of the package.

====Basic Fun====
*'''Megatron''' (Figural keychain assortment, 2007)
: Produced by [[Basic Fun]], this keychain is a likeness of Megatron's robot mode with articulated arms, legs, head, waist, and a keyring sticking out of his ass.
{{-}}

====Transformers Movie Danglers====
[[Image:Movie Megatron dangler.jpg|right|200px|thumb|No, that's not his back, that's his actual face.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
:Released by [[Tomy Yujin]] in November 2007<ref name="TomyYujin">[http://www.gachausa.com/products/transformers.asp Tomy Yujin ''Transformers'' page]</ref> for the [[Danglers Collection]], this toy is a weird plastic [[super deformed]] version of Megatron that pops out his vehicle mode when you squeeze him. This little figurine has a little strap on it so that it can be put on cell phones or portable gaming devices.

:Other than Megatron, there are also versions of [[Brawl (Movie)|Decepticon Devastator]], Bumblebee, Ironhide, Bonecrusher, Jazz, and Optimus Prime.
{{-}}

====Unleashed====
[[Image:Movie2007_Unleashed_Megatron.jpg|right|200px|thumb|]]
*'''Megatron''' (2008)

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

====Transformers Movie Screen Cleaners====
[[Image:Movie Megatron screencleaner.jpg|right|104px|thumb|]]
*'''Megatron''' (2008)
:Released by Tomy Yujin on January 2008<ref name="TomyYujin" />, this dangler is a faction logo-shaped screen cleaner for your cell phone, with a stock image of Megatron printed on the other side.
{{-}}

===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Transformers Digital Watch====
[[Image:ROTF_Megatrondigitalwatch.jpg|thumb|200px|]]
*'''Megatron Digital Watch''' (2009)

:Made by [[Fab Starpoint]], this Megatron-themed digital watch has a nylon velcro strap with a rubber pull tab, a plastic case and chrome bezel, and an LCD display on the face.
{{-}}

====Transformers Wacky Wobblers====
*'''Megatron''' (2009)

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Basic Fun====
*'''Articulated keychain''' (2009)

: Produced by [[Basic Fun]], this keychain is a likeness of Megatron's robot mode with articulated arms, legs, head, waist, and a keyring sticking out of his ass.
{{comingsoontoy}}

===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:Robot Heroes Ratchet vs Megatron.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Adorable head crushing!]]
*'''Autobot Ratchet vs Megatron''' (2007)
:The first Robot Heroes toy of Megatron was available packed with Autobot Ratchet. Like many Robot Heroes, he is grinning from ear to ear, and in a squatty pose. Notably, his hands are simplified into three fingered claws, and his head is a cute version of the original (and replaced) design. His articulation is the standard shoulders and neck. The toy is colored much like the Leader class version of the character.
{{-}}

*'''The Final Battle''' (2008)
[[Image:Robotheroesfinalbattle.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Shiny!]]
:Sold exclusively in Walmart stores, this release of Megatron is a repaint of the first Robot Heroes toy. Sold with redecoed Autobot Jazz, Blackout, Optimus Prime, and Ratchet, no molding was changed on this toy. However, the figure boasts a metallic finish, making the toy a vibrant silver with painted bronze highlights for greater film accuracy.
{{-}}

*'''Battle Jazz vs Megatron''' (2008)
[[Image:Robotheroesjazzmegatron.jpg|right|150px|thumb|PRIIIIIIME!]]
:The second mold, sharing no parts with the first release. His right arm has transformed into the mace, and he's posed just after slamming it into the ground (with impact "explosion" molded in). The head is the "final" head design, but the toy has many outbursts of blue, either to make a more exciting deco or evoke him being "recently thawed". Sadly, he is only articulated at the neck and LEFT shoulder, denying the world adorable mace bonking.
{{-}}
*'''Autobot Skids and Megatron''' (2009)
{{-}}

[[Image:Robotheroesmegatronfallenprimejetfireironhide.jpg|300px|thumb|right|Say hello to my GIGANTIC-ASS friend!]]
*'''Battle for the Fallen''' (box set, 2009)
:This ''Robot Heroes'' box set of figures comes with [[The Fallen]], Megatron (tank mode), [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]] combined, and Ironhide (truck mode). Megatron proooobably has no articulation.

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

[[Image:RobotHeroes_BattlefortheAllspark.jpg|300px|thumb|right|]]
*'''Battle for the Allspark''' (2009)
:A redeco of the second ''Robot Heroes'' mold is included in this set representing the battle of [[Mission City]] along with a redeco of Decepticon Brawl, along with new figures of Ratchet (with his saw), [[Sam Witwicky]] with the All Spark Cube, Optimus Prime, Starscream and Bumblebee in vehicle mode.

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

==Trivia==
[[Image:Movie Megatron olduglyface.jpg|right|200px|thumb|I'm blind!]]
* When the 2007 Bristol Comic Expo's Transformers panel got onto how fiddly the Movie designs were, Megatron was singled out as a prime example; one of the ''panel'' referred to him as "a walking chandelier". <ref>[http://panelborders.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/podcast-transformers-and-now/ Panel Borders (click "Download This Episode Now" link as others go to the wrong podcast)]</ref>
* The prototype photographs on the back of Leader and Voyager class Megatrons' packaging show him with a completely different head based upon an earlier version of CGI design (seen on the right) that was dropped after much negative fan reaction.
* According to The Movie Guide, Megatron is one of the few Transformers capable of space travel without reverting to a Protoform. This explains how he was capable of chasing the All Spark ''immediately'' after its launch.
* According to [[The Quest For the Allspark]] paperback's opening paragraph, "...Most revered were Optimus and Megatron. They were twin brothers of the Prime dynasty." This implies that Megatron may have also had the surname "Prime" at one time.
* Early script drafts and a [[Optimus Prime Versus Megatron|children's picture book]] featured Megatron consuming the [[spark]]s of his fallen foes, but this didn't make it into the final film due to time constraints. The novelisation of the movie, on the other hand, sees him chow down on Jazz in the final battle; similarly, although not outright stated in dialogue, his animalistic pouncing on the fallen bodies of various characters (including Optimus Prime, Starscream, Jazz and the [[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|Decepticon Create-A-Bot]]) in the Movie Nintendo DS games, following by what appears to be rooting around in their innards, seems to suggest he's doing the same there.
* Similarly, in the ''Autobots'' version of the same DS game, it is noted that Megatron "took the spark" of his and Optimus' father. Presumably, this is a reference to both his cannibalistic practises as well as the fact that both he and Prime are in fact brothers, at least in the Cybertronian sense.
* Despite his undeniable hatred of humans, Megatron is the only Decepticon in the movie who doesn't speak [[Cybertronian languages|Cybertronian]] for the majority of his dialogue. In fact, he speaks ''fluent'' English upon reviving, despite the fact that [[wikipedia:Modern English|Modern English]] came into existence around the Sixteenth century, when he was presumably still frozen in the ice. This could suggest that he still was somehow conscious when he was studied by Sector Seven (which he also overtly states upon awakening in the IDW comic adaptation). This would explain why his first action after thawing was declaring his name - imagine being frozen for generations being referred to as "N.B.E. 1", or even worse: "Mega-man" ''and'' "Ice-man".
* The Megatron computer generated model consisted of 2411 individual pieces, 433,949 polygons, 8924 rig nodes, and 1437 texture maps. The pieces combined gave a volume of 10,325 cubic feet.<ref>Robertson, Barbara (2007). Heavy Metal. ''Computer Graphics, 30''(7), 12-17.</ref>
* [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] from ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]]'' has apparently stolen this Megatron's head, at least for the [[Transform and Roll Out|first episode]].
* There are some problems with Simmons' statement about various technologies being reverse-engineered from Megatron. Cars came about in one shape or form at about the turn of the century, and spaceflight technology was pioneered by German and Soviet scientists. Of course, Simmons isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, so he could be exaggerating. They'll always have ''[[Ghost 1]]'' though.
*It was decided that Megatron would not be renamed Galvatron in [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] for the sake of the general audience.<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-movie-discussion/180451-welcome-mr-roberto-orci-you-may-ask-him-questions-229.html#post3421064 Roberto Orci answers fan questions on the TFW2005 boards.]
</ref>
*While the [[Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|Revenge Of The Fallen Movie Universe]] creates the idea that Megatron is a triple changer that alternates between his robot, jet, and tank modes, there is absolutely nothing to support this in the movie. Throughout the entire film, he only transforms into a winged tank portrayed by the Voyager figure and is more than capable of flying in said mode.
{{-}}

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2007/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm Megatron at TFU.info]

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:3D Battle-Cards]]
[[Category:Attacktix]]
[[Category:Decepticon leaders]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Live-action film ARG characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Rulers of Cybertron]]
[[Category:Starships]]
[[Category:Toys with sound]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Triple Changers]]

Axalon (BW)

2009-07-13T19:08:05Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{disambigr|Axalon|the Autobot ship from Armada|Axalon (Armada)}}

:''The ''Axalon'' is a spaceship from the [[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Axalon1.jpg|right|400px|thumb|I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.]]
The '''''Axalon''''' is a [[Maximal]] exploration vessel whose mission was to explore and survey uninhabited worlds, seeding them with [[stasis pods]] so that those Transformers within could adopt the appearance of local lifeforms and conduct research undisturbed. However, she was called upon to intercept and pursue a stolen [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] starship, and was subsequently never heard from again by her superiors.

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
====''Beast Wars''====
[[Image:DeathoftheAxalon.jpg|right|150px|thumb|It's just like the Titanic... FROM SPACE.]]
When [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]'s band of Predacon criminals stole the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden Disk]] and escaped in their stolen ship, the ''[[Darksyde]]'', the Maximal science vessel ''Axalon'' was the only ship close enough with the [[Transwarp]] engines needed to pursue him.

[[Image:Axalon chase.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Chicken, Maximal style]]
Her crew at the start of the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] appears to have been newly assembled and the captain, [[Optimus Primal]], was new to command. However, the ''Axalon'' itself had already been in service for at least a while. The [[Dinobot (BM)|Dinobot]] [[Airraptor]] once served aboard her before the Beast Wars as interplanetary surveyor and navigator.

[[Image:Axalon podlaunch.jpg|left|180px|thumb|This isn't crashing, it's falling... sans style]]
The ''Axalon'' engaged the ''Darksyde'' in battle as soon as both starships came out of transwarp, chasing the Predacon ship to a primitive world that would later be revealed as [[Earth]]. Outgunned by the ''Darksyde'', the ''Axalon'''s engines were severely damaged and she was slowly dragged towards the surface by the planet's gravitational pull. Realizing their ship would not survive, their cargo of stasis pods were launched into safe orbit from the rear docking bay. Despite this grim setback, Optimus Primal was not willing to allow their enemies to escape, and so he ordered the forward plasma cannon to be fired at the ''Darksyde'', a well-targeted shot that crippled the Predacon warship. Soon afterward, both ships crash-landed. {{storylink|Beast Wars (Part 1)}}

[[Image:Axalon crash.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Just a few dents, it's still good, it's still good!]]
After crashing on Earth the ''Axalon'' became the Maximals' base of operations. Still flight worthy, the ''Axalon'' took her last trip into the air when the Maximals were able to salvage parts from the ''Darksyde'' when they mistakenly thought the Predacons had destroyed themselves in an energon explosion. The trip was brief and the crash, caused by Megatron, ensured that the ''Axalon'' would never fly again.

After Megatron's attempt to alter history, she was further destroyed by Predacon forces, as [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] and some of [[Tarantulas]]'s spider drones pulled her off the cliff that she was straddling. The ship's forward quarter, including the command center, split off and fell first, landing on dry land. The remainder, including her drives and primary computer center, fell afterward and sank into the lake. The remains of the command center were salvaged to help fortify the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] against Predacon attack. {{storylink|Optimal Situation}} Rattrap would later undertake a dangerous mission below the lake's surface to salvage the [[Sentinel (BW)|Sentinel]] shield control module; a simultaneous underwater battle between Rampage and Depth Charge sent the ship's remains plummeting even further into the lake's depths.

It would appear the Maximals left the remains of the ''Axalon'' behind when they returned to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. {{storylink|Nemesis Part 2}}

In both "[[Primeval Dawn]]" and in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s comic book series, we see abandoned segments of the Maximal encampment.

{{-}}

==Known Specifications==
[[Image:Axalon plasmacannon.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Up close, this looks both cool... and really gross.]]
As the ''Axalon'' was a science vessel, she is scantily armed and even then primarily for defensive purposes. However, her main forward plasma cannons have enough power to cripple Predacon ships (such as the ''Darksyde'') with several well-targeted shots. The Axalon also has a turret on either side of her hull just behind the bridge. There are also at least one turret mounted under her near the nose. She is later equipped with a powerful defense shield and defensive program Sentinel.

She has a large Stasis Hold where stasis pods are stored. In addition she has a holding room for prisoners (interesting considering she is not a war ship).

The ship's computer core is located towards the stern of the ship, which houses, among other things, the Sentinel defense program.

It is unknown exactly how many crew quarters the Axalon has, however the captain's quarters is located on the port side of the ship. This room protrudes outward from the hull. It has a large expanse of glass which gives the captain the nicest view of the surroundings of any known part of the ship.

Her rear docking bay can launch stasis pods in the event of an emergency.

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Beast Wars Tenth Anniversary===
* '''Optimus Primal''' (2006)

:A small-scale toy of the ''Axalon'' was included.

==Trivia==
[[Image:Ceti-Alpha-Seven.jpg|right|200px|thumb|I don't know if it just has way bigger chairs inside or what.]]
* Another starship of the ''Axalon'''s class was used by [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]]'s team in the [[Timelines (fiction)|Timelines]] story ''[[Descent into Evil]]''.

* Another very similar starship, possibly ''Axalon''-class or meant to evoke it, was used in the [[Robots in Disguise (franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] continuity by an Autobot who would eventually be reprogrammed into [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]] {{storylink|The Decepticons|The Decepticons}}.

* The Axalon's main plasma cannons were used twice in the series: during the battle with the Darksyde (the guns that dealt the crippling blow to the Predacon ship) and once more during "[[Call of the Wild]]" as backup when the topside autogun was destroyed.

* According to [[Transformers: Defiance]], it seems that [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire's]] cybertronian form has a more-than passing resemblance to the Axalon.

{{-}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Starships]]
[[Category:Bases]]
[[Category:Timelines]]

Alliance issue 4

2009-07-12T04:43:48Z

72.128.51.130: /* Items of note */

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=[[Alliance (comic)|''Transformers: Alliance'']] #4
|prev=Alliance issue 3
|next=Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation issue 1
|image=Alliance4_coverA.jpg
|caption=Now go out and buy the movie adaptation!
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[March 25]], [[2009]]
|coverdate=March 2009
|written by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|art by=[[Alex Milne]]
|colors by=[[Josh Perez]] & [[Kris Carter]]
|letters by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|edits by=[[Denton J. Tipton]] & [[Andy Schmidt]]
|continuity=[[Movie continuity]]
}}
'''Everyone gets ready for the ''Revenge of the Fallen.'''''

==Synopsis==

En route to [[San Francisco]], the Autobots and [[NEST]] soldiers converse about their mission. Two Decepticons have been spotted in the city, but thankfully, there was no mention of robots, so they must be in their vehicle modes. Lennox wonders how their team can do this without drawing attention from bystanders, to which Ironhide told him to leave it to the Autobots, knowing that the two Decepticons will put up a fight. Once they land, Salani reminds them that this is for real. Team 3 is to serve as perimeter defense, Team 2 sets up the trap, and Team 1 (consisting of Lennox, Optimus Prime, and Bumblebee) will flush them out. Lennox once again lays down the plans, with a chemical spill used as cover for their operations, as they need as much secrecy as possible.

In Downtown San Francisco, the area is cordoned off, and the civilians have been moved out, so Team 2 is cleared to go. Ratchet tells Ironhide that their appearance seems much suited for the mission, and that both them and the humans look stylish, but Ironhide tells him to stow it. Suddenly, Ratchet picks up energy readings, then Swindle and Deadend crash through a sliding wall and Team 2 picks up the chase. Swindle thinks that, if Barricade's intel is right, he and Deadend are chased by Ironhide and Ratchet, and not Prime. Then, Prime appears out of nowhere and runs over Deadend. Swindle runs off, but Bumblebee chases after him.

Prime is okay, but Deadend isn't, as noted by Ratchet. Salani calls Epps for a clean-up crew, while at the Golden Gate Bridge, Epps asks Lennox for his status. Lennox is pursuing Swindle, and Swindle is heading toward the Bridge fast. Lennox tells Epps to have the soldiers let Swindle get a bit of "clearance", then he and Bumbleee continue the pursuit. When they reach the bridge, Swindle transforms and is incredulous that Bumblebee came alone, but Lennox tells Swindle otherwise. Swindle blast at them, then beats up Bumblebee. Lennox fires at Swindle, but Swindle turns his attention to Lennox, but before he can do anything, he is blasted by Bumblebee. Dying, Swindle says that none of them are safe, but shuts down before he tells more. Lennox considers the mission a success, seeing as it wasn't as bad as [[Mission City]] was.

Hours later, during the trip back to base, Optimus Prime notes that Lennox looks tired, but Lennox says that he was wondering if things are about to get worse, and is worried about what Swindle said. Prime asks him is he's also worried about Sam Witwicky; Lennox says yes, but is more concerned about the "we'll" part, thinking that more Decepticons will arrive, and if so, ''why'' are they on Earth? Prime doesn't have the answer, but agrees with the safety of Sam. Prime thinks that Sam will be safe at the base, but Lennox doesn't agree, because he's just a kid, and they can't move him from the street, either. Prime thinks that, no matter what happens,
with their own destinies being absolute and uncontrollable, Sam is going to be involved in this. Lennox tells Prime that they need someone to watch over him, but Prime knows just the one.

When the team lands back at the base, a refreshed Epps meets with the still-tired Lennox, who tells him that something's going on out there. Epps tells him that they're ready for anything, but Lennox questions this, saying that for all their training, they weren't clean during the day's mission. Epps thinks it could have been worse, but Lennox says that it might get worse, as well as saying that Bumblebee is leaving the team to once again guard Sam. Epps is upset, saying that they can't lose team members that came from another planet; Lennox agrees.

Later, Lennox is debriefed by the Army over the day's mission. Lennox tells them about the incident at the Golden Gate Bridge, but the commander debriefing the team isn't pleased with this, as they were given ''strict orders'' to not transform. If the Decepticons did so on their own accord, then so be it; however, the team was ordered ''not'' to, as the Army didn't want to risk disclosure in a major city again. Lennox said that they had no choice, as the Decepticons had engaged them and they took caution in how they responded. The battle at Mission City was in the past, and now is the time to move on. The commander says that civilians weren't used to seeing robots or jets flying in major cities. Lennox argues, saying that the jet was one of them. As for proof that the Autobots want to work for the army, it couldn't be helped, but their working on that. The mission was a success, despite the incident at the bridge.

The army commander still isn't sold on Lennox's idea. They had been authorization on that mission, but now they expect that the rules to be followed in the missions that will be coming to them, and that the unit is used to ''fix'' problems, not make new ones. After making Lennox clear on this issue, the commander will pass this onto his superiors, and tells Lennox that he and his men need to look over the day's mission and ''learn'' from them. When the conversation ends, Lennox is upset at the commander, saying that he was impossible to work. Prime says that the team will have to work harder, but Lennox thinks that the problem is the army still doesn't get the difference between Autobots and Decepticons. Optimus Prime says that they have to succeed.

The next day, Bumblebee says his brief good-byes to the group. Ironhide tells him to stay out of trouble until he meets with Bumblebee, while Optimus Prime reminds Bumblebee that the protection of Sam is his first priority, then Bumblebee leaves. Later, the team is briefed by the army. There have been multiple Decepticon sightings all over the globe. Lennox lets Optimus Prime talk to the army, and Prime believes that, coming from Swindle's comments, the Decepticons are looking for something, be it Megatron's remains, Sam's house, or somewhere else. The commander asks if they aren't spreading for another attack, but Prime doesn't know. The Decepticons soldiers don't act like the ones Megatron commanded, but are more like scouts. The commander gives them new orders; they are to find these Decepticon scouts, engage, hunt down, and eliminate them.

And so, as Prime relates, with upgraded technology from Sector Seven installed by Ratchet, the Autobots found the Decepticons, and, when found, they were destroyed immediately (in Italy, Fracture gets smashed by Ironhide and falls to the ravine). With help from NEST, the war with the Decepticons continues. As weeks, then months went by, they trained and got better. Soldiers from all over the world signed up. Together, they celebrated triumph (in Europe, Overcast is shot down by NEST forces) and mourned those who made sacrifices (a mission in the Middle East resulted in the death of Salani). They grew as a team and learned from one another, becoming stronger allies in an ever-changing war. The Decepticons wouldn't give them info, but they never lasted long enough anyways (in Florida, they eliminated Dropkick and Incinerator), and others they couldn't get rid of (Barricade fled after the Florida battle).

Each mission was followed with an army debriefing. It was from there that they received judgment and new orders. It was in one briefing that they were given hope and joy. The next day, the Autobots head to a junkyard. Lennox says that the rad detector is going crazy, and that it's not them. Optimus reassures Lennox, then calls to the hiding Autobots. The new Autobots respond by appearing (in the guises of a [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|silver sports car]], three [[Arcee (Movie)|motorcycles]], and an [[Skids (ROTF)|old ice]] [[Mudflap (ROTF)|cream truck]]), and saying that they got Optimus' call. However, the reunion is cut short by more sightings. The old Autobots catched up with the new ones through their training. The training ends as they are called to the briefing room, as Optimus wonders that if something is out there, friend or foe, they are the only ones who can deal with the situation, one which is threatening their new home, themselves, and their alliance with the humans.

Inside, Lennox briefs the team on a new assignment, which will involve the new Autobots to stick with their training and watching their backs. Their target location: Shanghai...

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] (1)
* [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] (2)
* [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] (5)
* [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] (6)
* [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] (16)
* [[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia]] (17)
* [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]] (18)
* "[[Purple motorcycle Autobot|Bike #3]]" (19)
* [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]]/[[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] ([[combiner|combined]]) (20)

|c2=
* [[Dead End (Movie)|Dead End]] (7)
* [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]] (8)
* [[Fracture]] (11)
* [[Overcast (Movie)|Overcast]] (12)
* [[Jetstorm (Movie)|Jetstorm]] (13)
* [[Dropkick]] (14)
* [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]] (15)
* [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] (21)
* [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] (22)
|c3=
* [[Robert Epps]] (3)
* [[William Lennox]] (4)
* [[Salani]] (9)
* Mystery Army guy (10)
}}

==Quotes==
*TBD

==Errors==
*TBD

==Items of note==
[[Image:Alliance4_CoverB_preliminary.jpg|thumb|150px|Does Prime transform into a short bus?]]
* Much like the changes made to [[Josh Nizzi]]'s cover for "[[Defiance issue 3]]", his cover for this issue went through several revisions. When it was previewed on [http://comicnewsi.com/article.php?catid=208&itemid=12437 ComicNewsi.com] on December 13, 2008, the cover featured a much brighter background with only the [[Pyramid|Pyrimid of Giza]] behind the characters; Optimus Prime was more awkwardly posed; Ironhide & Ratchet were large and prominent; and [[Jolt (ROTF)|Jolt]] could be (barely) seen on the cover behind the three bikes. On Nizzi's final version, the tone is much darker and more sombre; at least two pyrimids are visible; Optimus Prime has been given a different pose; Ironhide & Ratchet are less prominent and Jolt has been removed entirely, probably because he doesn't appear in the movie adaptation. The final published cover removes some forward window pillars that do not exist on Sideswipe's prop vehicle.
* Though they do not appear in this issue due to lack of space, [[Reverb (Movie)|Reverb]] and [[Gunbarrel (Movie)|Gunbarrel]] are most likely to be been destroyed in Italy, judging by Ironhide's comment about Fracture being the last of the group there.

===Covers (2)===
*'''Cover A:''' The Autobots and their human allies, as well as a fallen Decepticon; art by [[Alex Milne]], colors by [[Priscilla Tramontano]].
*'''Cover B:''' The Autobots and their new Autobot allies; art and colors by [[Josh Nizzi]].
<gallery>
Image:Alliance4_coverA.jpg|Where's Waldo?
Image:Alliance4_coverB.jpg|Here's the [[to sell toys|new toys]] to look for this summer!
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
* Comics Grading Corporation (CGC)
* ''Transformers [[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]] Official Guidebook Volume 1''
* ''Transformers More Than Meets The Eye Official Guidebook Volume 2''
* ''[[All Hail Megatron]]'' Volume 1 TPB
* ''Transformers More Than Meets The Eye Official Guidebook Volume 2''
* ''Star Trek: Countdown'' series
* ''Classic [[G.I. Joe]]'' Volume 1
* ''The Presidents of the United States'' comic
* ''G.I. Joe: Origins''
* ''Groom Lake'' #1
* ''G.I. Joe'' comics
* ''Terminator Salvation'' movie adaptation (back cover)

[[Category: IDW Movie issues]]

Arcee (Movie)

2009-07-12T04:06:06Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */ if this is talking about that panel I think it is, it's wrong. That was just Chromia, not the gestalt.

{{disambig3|Arcee}}
{{factions|autobot|NEST}}

:''Arcee is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Arceemovie.jpg|right|250px|thumb|She's got legs, she knows how to use them. Temporarily, anyway.]]
Though small compared to many of her peers and adversaries, '''Arcee''' compensates with speed and aggressive maneuvers, making her one of the most dangerous Autobots around. Moreover, Arcee is a born hunter. She honed her speed hunting [[Turbofox|turbofoxes]] with other speedsters, challenging herself to get as close as possible before tagging them with her bow. She's a crack shot with said crossbow weapon, and [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] has trained her to use her speed to her advantage in battle, striking suddenly and swiftly and then vanishing away again as fast as she appeared.

The events at [[Tyger Pax]] created a nagging doubt in Arcee about her abilities. She carries some guilt about [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]'s injuries, and part of what drives her is the desire to prove herself, not only in the optics of her friends and comrades, but most importantly in her own.

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
Many, many years in the past, Arcee was a member of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus's]] science division, in charge of excavation site LT34 near the temple of [[Simfur]]. While Optimus was showing Protector [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] around, her team discovered a mysterious relic with a [[Decepticon|strange symbol]] etched into it. She led her superiors to the ancient relic and watched as Megatron and Optimus began to argue when the former demanded the relic be relocated to his private quarters, Optimus relenting due to a sudden alien attack. Arcee assisted with its evacuation from the dig site. {{storylink|Defiance issue 1}}

[[Image:Defiance2_Arcee_Clocker.jpg|thumb|left|250px|You just middle-fingered your way out of lunch missy!]]

After the attack, Arcee tried to save the life of one of the aliens, but was unsuccessful. She and [[Clocker (Movie)|Clocker]] moved the bodies to [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]]'s lab, where they discovered that the beings were similar in structure to the Cybertronians, only lacking the ability to [[transformation|transform]]. Before they could speculate further about the common ancestry of the two races, [[Signal Flare (Movie)|Signal Flare]] arrived with orders from Optimus to assemble at the Simfur excavation site for a meeting. There, Arcee and the other scientists learned of Protector Megatron's demand for war and Optimus' thoughts on the issue. After most of the scientists agreed to follow Optimus, they travelled to [[Trypticon (Movie)|Trypticon]] to watch Megatron deliver his saber-rattling war rally. {{storylink|Defiance issue 2}}

Ratchet, Arcee and [[Elita-One]] returned to the lab to analyze the other relic fragments recovered from the Simfur excavation, while Optimus, [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and [[Prowl (Movie)|Prowl]] broke into Megatron's quarters to examine the intact relic. Before Optimus could explain to Ratchet the strange condition of the artifact, Arcee reported a finding—a symbol that appeared in the same place on all the different fragments: the same symbol that was on Optimus' head. Ratchet theorised that the legend of the [[Dynasty of Primes]] was true, and that Optimus was somehow connected to all of this. Later, at the dig site near [[Burthov]], Arcee, Ratchet and Optimus were arrested by Prowl's security forces on orders from Megatron for treason. What they didn't know was they were all being led into a trap, and the assassins Megatron sent would only take Optimus alive. After [[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl's]] initial attack, Optimus ordered the group to escape to Burthov while he took care of [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and his soldiers. {{storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

Arcee was part of the team who captured the disenchanted soldier [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] and brought him before Optimus Prime. Ironhide pledged alliegence with Prime and brought news of ''[[Nemesis (ROTF)|Nemesis]]'', a massive starship that Megatron was building. While observing its construction and taking images of the ship, Arcee remarked that she had never seen its like before. During the subsequent civil war, Arcee defended civilians who were being targeted by Megatron's Decepticons for refusing to join in the war against Optimus Prime's Autobots. She was under command of Bumblebee and desperately fought against Megatron's vast army at [[Tyger Pax]]. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

[[Image:MoviePrequel1 Arcee Bumblebee.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"Can I say something?" "Whatever it is now is not the right time!"]]

However, Arcee and the rest of those under Bumblebee's command didn't know the true purpose of their battle, for they were a diversion to keep Megatron busy while other Autobots readied the [[All Spark]] for launch from Cybertron. She was captured and interrogated by the Decepticons but survived the ordeal. She recounted to their Autobot rescuers Bumblebee's heroics in delaying Megatron, preventing Megatron from intercepting the wormhole-bound All Spark. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 1}}

Many years later, following the death of [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] and the destruction of the All Spark on [[Earth]], Arcee was in command of an Autobot assault team on [[Mars]] and led [[Cliffjumper (Movie)|Cliffjumper]] and others in an attack on [[Nemesis (Movie)|Starscream's ship]]. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Two}}

[[Image:ReignofStarscream4 Arcee.jpg|left|150px|thumb|She's so happy to be home, she doesn't even care that Payload's looking up her dress.]]

While her team made short work of the [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]], [[Dreadwing (Movie)|Dreadwing]], and [[Payload (Movie)|Payload]] drones the Decepticons sent against them, Arcee killed the Decepticon sniper [[Hardtop (Movie)|Hardtop]] before he could snipe [[Smokescreen (Movie)|Smokescreen]]. Her teammates were unprepared for the arrival of [[Thundercracker (Movie)|Thundercracker]], however, and he quickly slew [[Camshaft (Movie)|Camshaft]] and wounded [[Cliffjumper (Movie)|Cliffjumper]]. Remembering her failure at Tyger Pax, Arcee leapt into action, and soon she and Cliffjumper had Thundercracker at their mercy. The arrival of Starscream changed that, as he killed Smokescreen and Air Raid and badly damaged Cliffjumper. As she attempted to pull the last surviving member of her team to safety, Arcee was kicked aside by Starscream. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Three}}

However, Arcee recovered an instant later. The Decepticon starship was already taking off, but she jumped and grabbed onto a piece of landing gear, holding on tight...through the [[space bridge]]. Wow. Later, she made her way back to an Autobot facility, where she unexpectedly met Clocker and [[Crosshairs (Movie)|Crosshairs]]. Along with a large force of Autobots, the three moved in on the Simfur temple, where Starscream was using captured Autobots for a strange project of his. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Four}}

[[Image:Alliance4_bikeAutobots.jpg|thumb|180px|May I introduce myselfs?]]

She split her troops into two forces: One would attack the city of [[Trypticon (Movie)|Trypticon]] as a diversion, while the other moved in on Simfur. Arcee and her team could only watch helplessly as Starscream drained the life out of the Autobot prisoners strapped onto the replica All Spark, despite her friend Elita-One's pleas for mercy. An opportunity to cause havoc presented itself when [[Dreadwing (Movie)|Dreadwing]]'s forces attempted a coup. Arcee lined up her sights on the generator holding the life energy of the deceased prisoners, dedicated the shot to Elita, and destroyed it, annihilating the Cube and sending the Decepticons into disarray. Arcee's team fought their way through the disorganised Decepticons, linked up with [[Wingblade]]'s team, and rolled out just as the crippled starship came crashing down on the city. With the destruction of the capitol and the defeat of a significant portion of the Decepticon drone army, Arcee considered this to be the turning point of the war, but as long as Starscream was alive, he was a threat that she had to track down. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Five}}

Sometime later, a reconfigured Arcee arrived on [[Earth]] with a small group of other Autobots to answer Optimus Prime's rallying call, but their joy was cut short with news of more Decepticon sightings on their new home. They caught up and reconnected through their training at [[NEST]]'s facility, as that was all the time they had. The new recruits were soon called upon to put their training into use: the Decepticon [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] had been sighted in [[Shanghai]], [[China]]. {{Storylink|Alliance issue 4}}
{{-}}

===Target Robovision bio===
{{notemoviebio}}

Arcee was on [[Earth]] for a short time at the beginning of the conflict there, presumably arriving shortly after Bumblebee. When the situation on Earth began to ramp up into out-and-out combat, she was reassigned elsewhere, where her stealth skills would be of more use.

Now she fights in the [[Charii system]] against a Decepticon splinter cell working on a star-breaking weapon. If she has her way, the only things breaking will be their heads.

===Titan Magazines ''Transformers'' movie comics===
{{Note|Arcee's appearance in [[IDW]]'s [[Movie Prequel (2007)|2007 Prime Directive movie prequel]] is in continuity with the following appearance in [[Titan]]'s comics.}}

Originally, Arcee didn't serve either faction, working alone to solve injustices in her own way. [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] personally decided to make an example of her, and only an Autobot extraction team led by [[Kup (Movie)|Kup]] saved her life. This debt saw her join the Autobots. She's chimerical in nature and is constantly changing her alt-mode in an effort to go as fast as possible (maybe that's why her robot mode always looks different!). She [[Arcee (G1)|previously had a hover-car form]], but on Earth takes a modified bike mode. Once you earn her trust, she's [[Rick Astley|never going to let you down]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 21|Arcee bio}}

{{notetitantlg}}

[[Image:Titan13 Arcee.jpg|right|150px|thumb|She's pissed off that she hasn't got her cool live-action design.]]

Arcee was one of the six Autobot reinforcements hiding on the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 9|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 1}} When [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] attacked them, the quick-thinking Arcee was the one who took command and rallied the troops. When this still failed to work, she ordered them to Earth (following [[Strongarm (Movie)|Strongarm's]] initiative) and their prearranged targets. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 11|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 3}} Alongside [[Armorhide (Movie)|Armorhide]], she guarded [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] while he destroyed the captive [[All Spark]] and thus saved Earth from being cyberformed. When the other Autobots had believed they'd lost, Arcee was the only one who outright refused to accept defeat. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 13|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 5}}

And, of course, they didn't lose. However, Arcee was left bewildered by the idea that Humanity would not trust and love the Autobots, and Optimus explained to her that, from a human point of view, all the Transformers are alien horrors fighting on their planet. Following this, she guarded the [[Savannah]], [[Georgia]] shelter and was caught in [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream's]] ambush. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 14|Aftermath Part 1}} {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 15|Aftermath Part 2}}

Among other engagements to protect the American infrastructure, she served with Bumblebee in protecting an Alaskan pipeline. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 16|Dark Spark}}

[[Image:Titan22 Arcee.jpg|left|200px|thumb|''That's'' better!]]

She was later part of Ironhide's team in retrieving [[Nucleon]] from Cybertron, which ran afoul of [[Stockade (Movie)|Stockade]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 17|Return to Cybertron: Part 1}} She acted as Bumblebee's distraction, drawing [[Storm Surge]] and [[Fracture]] away, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 18|Return to Cybertron: Part 2}} and doubled back to regroup with Ironhide (and pull him out of rubble) when [[Unicron]] arrived. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 19|Return to Cybertron: Part 3}} Later, she got Optimus Prime up to speed on the situation. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 20|Return to Cybertron: Part 4}}

Following the Decepticon re-conquest of Savannah, Arcee was part of the raid to rescue [[Mikaela Banes]]. She got off one bit of bravado about how hitting things was her kind of shindig before [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] hit ''her''. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

When the Autobots launched their final strike, Arcee was part of the spearhead team hittting the [[Decepticon Heartland]]. She started off the 'tagging' of Decepticons to teleport them away from Earth, getting [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]] in the back and looking very happy about it. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|Revolution Part Three}}

{{Note|The following takes place in the Star Screams letter column continuity.}}

Arcee runs a lonely-hearts ad column called Arcee's Soulmates in her spare time.

No, really.

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Grey DeLisle]] (English), [[Masako Katsuki]] (Japanese), [[Martina Treger]] (German),[[Chiara Colizzi]] (Italian)
:''Holographic rider:'' [[Erin Naas]]
{{spoiler|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|July 24, 2009}}

[[Image:ROTF-Arceethree.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Now I'm my own threesome!]]

Arcee answered the call from Optimus Prime to join his Autobots on Earth. Her consciousness was split between three motorcycles, all which could transform into individual robots, yet all three together were considered simply "Arcee." Her components also have the ability to recombine into a single robot mode.<ref>The Arcee components combining into one robot mode is not shown in the film, but in all other media.</ref> Under Optimus Prime's command, she was part of the Autobot/human military alliance known as [[NEST]], whose job was to hunt the remaindered Decepticons hiding across the globe.

Arcee and the rest of NEST were able to trace two Decepticons hidden in [[Shanghai]], [[China]]. When one of them, [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]], revealed himself, the three components of Arcee were released from a NEST truck trailer. Though Arcee was able to surround Sideways with herself and cover him in firepower, the Decepticon was able to elude her by jumping through a building. Unfortunately for Sideways, Arcee was also accompanied by [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]], who quickly put the Decepticon down.

While not on missions, Arcee was parked with the other Autobots in their hanger at [[Diego Garcia]]. It was here that the Autobots received word from the [[President of the United States]] via [[Theodore Galloway|Director Galloway]] that the White House was concerned that the Autobots' living on Earth was the reason for the Decepticon activity, and that if need be, they would ask the Autobots to leave. Later, after [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] died in battle and [[The Fallen]] issued an ultimatum to Earth, the US government decided that the Autobots would be shipped back to Diego Garcia.

NEST had a different idea, and instead shipped Arcee and the other Autobots to [[Egypt]] on the advice of [[Sam Witwicky]], who had the means to resurrect Optimus Prime. During the climactic battle between NEST and The Fallen's Decepticons, Sam and Mikaela attempted to make their way through the bombed-out Egyptian town that had become the battlefield. Arcee arrived with [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] to escort them through the warzone, but unfortunately, her purple and pink components were disabled by [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|a Decepticon]], and only the blue component remained operational when she was last seen. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Scout Class toys====
[[Image:Arceemoviescout.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Not Chrom- Well, maybe I am!]]
*'''Arcee''' (Target exclusive Scout Class, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Launcher, missile, scope, 2 tailpipes, "energon" star

: Arcee is a [[redeco]] of ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' [[Arcee (Energon)|Arcee]], replacing her pinks and most of her whites and blacks with blue, and her translucent red with smoky brown plastic. She transforms into a "superbike"-type racing motorcycle. Unusually for a Transformer, she does not hold her weapon in her hands as most figures do. Instead, her Energon Bow mounts on a peg on either arm, with her hands being positioned to give the appearance of her using the bow. The bow itself is spring-loaded, firing a grey "arrow" missile.

:Arcee (and the rest of the Scout wave) were [[exclusive]] to Target stores, where they were all part of a [[Robo-Vision]] promotion. Arcee came with a [[Robo-Vision Decoder]] which allows you to see the Robo-Vision Code ("BULLSEYE") printed on her cardback. Starting [[June 2]], 2007, Target's website allowed users to input those codes to access exclusive content, a concept similar to the online [[Cyber Planet Key]] info from the ''Transformers: Cybertron'' toyline.

: This mold also was used to make ''Superlink'' Ariel Paradron Type, as well as the [[BotCon 2005]] ''[[Descent into Evil]]'' set's [[Chromia (G1)|Chromia]], [[Flamewar]], [[Flareup (Timelines)|Flareup]], and the fellow Target-exclusive movieverse [[Elita-One]].
{{-}}

====Deluxe Class toys====
[[Image:Movie Deluxe Arcee toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Pretty in...purple?]]
*'''Arcee''' (Deluxe Class, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MA-11'''
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, missile

: Deluxe Arcee transforms into a purple 2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R motorcycle, genericised to get around licensing issues. Arcee has references [[Tampograph|tampographed]] on her vehicle mode, such as her motorcycle's model name, "RC 1100", and her Massachusetts license plate marked TF7407, the original release date of the movie.

: Arcee's [[Automorph Technology|Automorphing]] feature is located in her crossbow weapon (formed out of the seat/storage area of the bike), activated when the projectile (the bike's tailpipe) is inserted, which pushes out the recurved lath parts on the sides of the weapon. The rectangular peg which is supposed to be used to attach her weapon to her forearm in robot mode is sometimes a poor fit, and the weapon may pop off. As an alternative, the round peg by which the weapon is attached in ''vehicle'' mode can also be used in robot mode, with a little rearranging of parts.

: Undocumented in the instructions, the two shoulder-mounted half-wheels contain a small niche on the edge of the tires. By folding the wheels down with the hubcaps pointing towards the chest and turning the tires towards the shoulders, one can feel the wheels gently click into place via the tire niches and hidden tabs in the shoulders, allowing the wheels to remain in place and more closely resemble the figure as pictured on its packaging.

: As with most larger Transformers toys that become motorcycles, Arcee has a kickstand on the left side of the bike; unfortunately, it's mounted so low that she will fall in the opposite direction if it is fully extended.


{{-}}
[[Image:Movietoy-Arceebattledamaged.jpg|right|thumb|300px|She's a dirty girl.]]
*'''Battle damage three-pack''' (Sam's Club exclusive three-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, missile

: A three-pack, exclusive to Sam's Club stores, consisting of redecos of Voyager Class [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] and Deluxe Class Arcee, both with battle damage deco, and an unchanged Voyager Class [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]].

: This version of Arcee later was sold at Asia online retailers and in European retail stores in the same packaging as the first release of Arcee. The packaging did not indicate any of the changes made to the figure, apart from a sticker on the bubble exclaiming "Exclusive! Battle-damage!".
{{-}}


[[Image:Movie Arcee Black toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Not [[Flamewar]] and not [[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]].]]
*'''Black Arcee''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MA-20'''
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, missile, Allspark cube

: This Japan-only [[redeco]] of Deluxe Class Arcee is cast in black in an attempt to match the look of the motorcycle [[William Lennox|Captain Lennox]] rides near the end of the film. Surprisingly, it is not [[Black repaint|evil]].

: Like all Japanese "Allspark Power" toys, black Arcee comes with a small Allspark cube accessory.
{{-}}


[[Image:Movie Arcee Wonder Festival G1 redeco.jpg|thumb|300px|How progressive. Wait, wait, no... the other thing.]]
*'''Arcee Limited Special Color Version''' (Deluxe-sized toy, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, missile

:This Arcee is decoed in pink and white, in homage to Generation 1 [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]], and was exclusive to the Wonder Festival 2008 Winter in Tokyo, Japan.

{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Deluxe class toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_Chromia.jpg|thumb|300px|Hey, I'm Arcee too, sometimes! Well, actually most times.]]
*'''Chromia''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-11'''
**''Accessories:'' Missile, display stand

:Chromia converts from a [[wikipedia:Suzuki B-King|Suzuki B-King]] to... a unicycle. Her vehicle mode weapon can attach as a display stand for either mode, ironically making a unicyclebot one of the most stable robot-modes. In robot mode, there is a spring-loaded missile between the tailpipes on Chromia's left hand in addition to the aforementioned non-firing blaster-stand. There is also a piece on the bottom of the vehicle mode (or back of the robot mode) that folds out, but there is no indication in the instructions as to what this piece is for.

:While the instructions depict the motorcycle seat remaining flat so that it ends up covering the bottom wheel, the robot mode more closely resembles the movie design if the seat is folded in and locked into a slot on the motorcycle's bottom, as shown on the back of the packaging. The packaging photo also shows Chromia's front wheel resting behind the robot's shoulders, while the instructions leave it above her head. Furthermore, while it is not mentioned either in the instructions or shown on the box, the stand can be attached backwards and rotated with the guns facing up so that it acts as a prop for the toy, allowing the wheel to actually touch the ground, and letting the toy look from the front like it is unsupported.

:Though the instructions do not explain it, the back of the blister card mentions she has a [[Mech Alive]] gimmick in her left arm. While it isn't quite the "spinning gears" the card refers to, swinging her left forearm towards and away from her body makes a blue piston slide back and forth inside the large gun.

{{-}}
[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_Arcee_toy.jpg|thumb|300px|Help! I have scoliosis, and I can't stand on my own.]]
*'''Arcee''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-23'''
**''Accessories:'' Side-car/display stand

:Deluxe class ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Arcee converts from a [[wikipedia:Ducati 848|Ducati 848]] to the most awkward robot mode you can imagine. The figure has a side-car which can become a weapon or a display stand.
{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

====Human Alliance====
[[Image:ROTFtoy-ArceeHumanAlliance.jpg|right|thumb|300px|I'm the red bike, but I transform into the blue bike's robot, but with the red bike's colors - look, women are complicated, okay?]]
*'''Autobot Skids / Arcee / Mikaela Banes''' (Human Alliance, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-25'''
**''Accessories:''

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

==Trivia==
[[Image:Movie scale chart.jpg|right|300px|thumb|In the time before time...]]
* As part of [[BotCon 2007]]'s Hasbro tour, fans viewed "Robot Scale Chart v03", dated 11.22.05, which showed Arcee's height as 9' (2.7m). However, all of the designs on this chart were very early and later heavily revised (though [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] was revised far less than the others).

* Arcee was originally going to be a member of the live-action movie's Autobot cast, but was later replaced by [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]]. According to screenwriter [[Roberto Orci]], they would have needed to explain the point behind female robots, which there wasn't any time for in the movie.<ref>[http://movies.ign.com/articles/801/801098p3.html Roberto Orci explaining the reasons for Arcee's removal from the script in an interview with IGN.]</ref> Oddly enough, there was no attempt to do so in ROTF.

* In another interview, Alex Kurtzman cited "scale issues" as an additional reason for dropping Arcee; allegedly, Michael Bay simply considered her too small as compared to the rest of the Autobots.<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20070714214451/http://www.wizarduniverse.com/movies/transformersmovie/005082421.cfm?page=1 Wizard interview with Kurtzman and Orci]</ref> It's commonly assumed that Arcee's big part in the movie would have been the scene in which [[William Lennox]] starts his solo assault on [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] using an abandoned motorcycle. However, the screenwriters rejected that notion, stating that this scene wasn't written until ''after'' Arcee had already been dropped from the script—but if she ''had'' remained in the movie, that scene ''would'' have probably featured her as the motorcycle.<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/2288318-post539.html Orci once again clearing up the story between Arcee and the motorcycle Lennox uses during the final battle]</ref>

* Arcee came ''this'' close to being killed off in ''The Reign of Starscream'', as the trade states that two revisions of the plot had her dying.

* Within the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie itself (and discussed in more detail in the novelization of the film), Arcee is revealed to be a "[[tripartite Cybertronian]]," meaning she is not one, but ''three'' motorcycles, who are controlled by a singular intelligence, in the vein of [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]] in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]]. The ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toyline, however, has identified Arcee as only ''one'' of the bikes (the pink/red one), and characterized another (the blue one) as an individual, [[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia]]. The third, [[purple motorcycle Autobot|purple bike]] has yet to receive any such treatment, but we fully expect it'll happen down the road at some point.
**In a similar vein, it was originally intended that the three individual "Arcees" would combine into a singular, larger robot in the film, but this did not come to pass. The toys do possess the ability, however, and the combined form did appear in the film's novelization, and in two panels of the [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|comic adaptation]].
**How to reconcile this new version of Arcee with the version seen in media associated with the first movie? The [[bio]] for ''Revenge of the Fallen'''s [[Knock Out (ROTF)|Knock Out]] holds the answer! This motorbike Autobot wants to undergo the new "combiner retrofit" he's been hearing about, strongly implying that Arcee underwent the same process, giving her the new powers she has in ''Revenge of the Fallen''. Whether or not the process involves getting combined with other, distinct Autobots (as the toyline would suggest, what with Chromia being an individual) or if it involves the Transformer's body being converted so that it splits into combining components (as the movie itself would suggest) is unknown.
***On that note, in the film itself she refers to her components in plural form. Before chasing Sideways, the Arcees are seen in vehicle form with their holographic drivers activating, with a communications officer asking if they are ready. To which, she replies; ''''We're''' locked and loaded'.
{{-}}

==Footnotes==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/TargetArcee/arcee.htm Arcee at TFU.info]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:Spies]]
[[Category:Female Transformers]]
[[Category:Multi-component Transformers]]
[[Category:NEST]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Target exclusives]]

Carnage in C-Minor

2009-06-15T06:51:39Z

72.128.51.130: /* Animation or technical glitches */

{{episode|
|series=G1toon
|series2=2010
|ep=82
|ep2=14
|image=Carnage C-Minor Autobots harmonic attack.JPG
|caption=[[Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime|Hey, what is that awful noise? Okay, let me straighten him out!]]
|title="Carnage in C-Minor"
|production code=700-102
|airdate=[[October 14]], 1986
|written by=[[Buzz Dixon]]
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''Several Autobots and Decepticons battle over a planet whose civilization revolves around music and whose inhabitants can use sound as a powerful weapon.'''

:''Japanese title:'' 音楽惑星の挑戦 (''Ongaku Wakusei no Chōsen'', "The Challenge of the Planet of Music")
:'' German title:'' "'''Das Gemetzel in Cis-Mol'''" ("The Slaughter in Cis-Mol")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Broadsidecrushesdevastator.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Die, Atlas!]]

The [[Decepticon]]s are building engines into the side of a comet in order to alter its course and crash it on top of [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]]. As they fire up the engines, a group of [[Autobot]]s close in, led there by [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]. The Autobots attack, much to [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]'s dismay. The [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] form [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]], who is promptly flattened when [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] drops on him in ship mode. In the ensuing battle, the engines are destroyed, and the comet is sent hurtling towards a small planet, which Perceptor reports is inhabited.

The Autobots attempt unsuccessfully to stop the comet before Galvatron again orders his men to engage their foe. While Galvatron and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are grappling, waves of sound energy destroy the comet and cause both groups of Transformers to plummet to the planet's surface. In a nearby city, three aliens are having a disagreement. One of them, [[Allegra]], storms out, saying that she's going to her retreat.

The Transformers recover from their crash, wondering what hit them. [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] describes it as the most perfect harmony ever, but Galvatron is more interested in its destructive power. Broadside breaks up the discussion by punching Galvatron, and the fight resumes. As the Contructicons form Devastator again, Perceptor blows the giant apart with one shot from his cannon. Galvatron and Soundwave depart in search of the source of the harmony they heard earlier, but Ultra Magnus spots them leaving and takes Broadside and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] in pursuit. Perceptor reflects that unless the trio are swift, there might not be much of them left.

[[Image:Carnage CMinor Blaster Magnus Basso.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"I now pronounce you bot and wife. You may kiss the bride."]]

Broadside swiftly passes the two Decepticons and overflies the city, which Blaster realises is laid out like a musical harmony. Magnus and Blaster meet with [[Basso Profundo]], leader of the planet [[Eurythma]], but Basso refuses to help them, believing that the harmony is all his people need to protect themselves. He drops a hint that Allegra might be able to help them, a fact overheard by Galvatron and Soundwave, who are spying outside. As the three Autobots go in search of Allegra, the Decepticons drop a bridge on them. To make sure, Galvatron blasts the wreckage, and the pair fly off to find Allegra.

Basso watches the two Decepticons leave, and fellow Eurythman [[Zebop Skandana]] uses a harmony to help the Autobots out of the rubble. Blaster realises that the Zebop was creating part of the harmony which originally blew the Autobots out of space, and Zebop says he's sympathetic to their cause and will help them find Allegra.

[[Image:Carnage CMinor Galvatron Soundwave Allegra.jpg|left|200px|thumb|]]

The two Decepticons meet Allegra, offering to help her overthrow Basso in return for the secret of the harmony. She obliges and Soundwave records it, but to Galvatron's rage, it turns out that she is only one part of the harmony; Basso and Zebop make up the other two thirds. Still, when the Autobots arrive with Zebop, Soundwave is testing the part of the harmony he has by destroying a rock. The Autobots set up an ambush, but Zebop is so distressed by the fact that Allegra is working with the Decepticons that he gives away their position. Galvatron starts firing, and Zebop takes refuge in Ultra Magnus's cab. Soundwave begins battering the Autobots with the harmony. When Zebop counters with ''his'' part of the harmony, Soundwave promptly records it and uses the resulting two-thirds of the harmony to devastating effect.

[[Image:Carnage CMinor Allegra Zebop.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Alas, poor Zebop. We knew him we- Wait. No, we don't.]]

With the Autobots apparently gone, Galvatron terminates the alliance with Allegra. She attempts to attack them with her part of the harmony, but Soundwave retaliates, knocking her out. The Autobots climb out of their hole in time to prevent Galvatron from terminating the Eurythman, but during the resulting fight, Blaster and Soundwave struggle and accidentally fall on Zebop. Galvatron grabs his minion and departs, leaving Allegra cradling Zebop in her arms. Though the Autobots believe he's had it, Allegra uses a harmony to revive him. The Autobots leave for the city.

Back at the landing site, the rest of the Autobots and Decepticons are still fighting. Hot Spot voices his hope that Magnus, Blaster and Broadside hurry. The Eurythmans have spotted the battle, and Basso uses an amplifier to direct a destructive harmony at it. [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] is forced to disassemble, but the two factions fight on. Basso is depressed, and his aide points out he needs Allegra and Zebop to complete the harmony. Arriving, Soundwave begins playing two-thirds of the harmony, shaking the city and provoking Basso into using the third part again, which Soundwave promptly records. He is subsequently able to use the complete harmonic weapon to attack the city. Pleased, Galvatron announces their next targets are Metroplex and then [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]].

[[Image:Carnage CMinor Soundwave harmony.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Soundwave finds himself too big to fly through the rings in the Training Stage.]]

Ultra Magnus's party arrives back at the city to find it devastated and their fellow Autobots badly damaged. The Eurythmans are able to repair Perceptor and the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] with a harmony, and the Autobots set off for Earth.

Galvatron and Soundwave attack Metroplex with the harmony, but the Autobots soon arrive with the three Eurythmans, who nullify Soundwave's weapon with anti-sound. Blaster grabs Soundwave and uses his buttons to erase the harmony from Soundwave's tapes. Despite Galvatron raging that he hasn't ordered a retreat, the Decepticons flee anyway. The Autobots return the Eurythmans to their world, where Ultra Magnus tells them they need to learn to live in harmony.
{{-}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] (9)
*[[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] (10)
*[[Superion (G1)|Superion]] (11)
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (12)
*[[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] (13)
*[[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] (15)
*[[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] (16)
*[[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] (21)
*[[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] (22)
*[[Groove (G1)|Groove]] (23)
*[[Blades]] (24)
*[[Scamper]] (25)
*[[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] (26)

|c2=
*[[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]] (1)
*[[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] (2)
*[[Scavenger (G1)|Scavenger]] (3)
*[[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] (4)
*[[Hook (G1)|Hook]] (5)
*[[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] (6)
*[[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] (7)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (8)
*[[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] (14)

|c4=
*[[Basso Profundo]] (17)
*[[Allegra]] (18)
*[[Zebop Skandana]] (19)
*Basso's consort (20)
}}

==Quotes==
"What was that?!" 
"That was heaven. The purest, most vibrant, most perfect harmony I've ever heard."
:—'''Galvatron''' and '''Soundwave''' wonder what hit them.

"You! Because of you, I got blasted out of space. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THAT DID TO MY PAINT JOB?!"
:—'''Broadside''', right before he sucker-punches Galvatron

"Broadside! Blaster! Galvatron and Soundwave went to find the weapon that knocked us out of space!" 
"Weapon? That was no weapon. That was harmonic bliss! A musical kiss!" 
"Whatever."
:—'''Ultra Magnus''', who doesn't have any soul, and '''Blaster''', who does.

"Blaster, you picking up anything?" 
"Yeah, yeah! Beauty like you wouldn't believe, Broadside. Sweet soul music. It's their art, their commerce, their philosophy, their whole—uh-oh, bummer. Galvatron and Soundwave are here."
:—'''Broadside''' and '''Blaster''' get their vibes harshed.

"I don't wanna see your ugly face, just the button that says 'ERASE'!" 
"My tapes! You've erased my tapes!"
:—'''Blaster''' destroys '''Soundwave'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s tapes, to the Decepticon's monotoned horror.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
"Carnage in C-Minor" is infamous among the fandom for the sheer number of animation errors in this episode. Among the more prominent are the following:

* Throughout the entire episode, Broadside is drawn with a previously [[:Image:BroadsideCarnage.jpg|discarded]] [[character model]].

* Devastator is the exact same size as Soundwave during the start of the first battle.

* Devastator also appears before he forms later in the battle.

* While the Autobots are shooting at the meteor, they are so badly drawn that they appear to have only one leg each, left arms starting from the elbows, and enormous heads...and Superion is tiny.

*When Bonecrusher orders the formation of Devastator, he's wearing an Autobot insignia. See also the continuity error below.

* When the Constructicons form Devastator for the second time, the first shot shows four Constructicons forming the legs and the torso. The second shot shows three robots forming the arms and upper torso. This means that [[Devastator (ROTF)|''seven'' Constructicons formed Devastator.]]

* After watching Galvatron and Soundwave leave, Ultra Magnus dispatches Hook and Scrapper—by picking them up in his hands and bashing them together. Magnus is supposed to be big, but not ''that'' big.

* Blaster, Ultra Magnus and Zebop are shown hanging onto Broadside while he flies around. Sometimes, the shots make them appear tiny or not to be hanging onto Broadside at all. (One wonders why Zebop doesn't just ride in Broadside's cockpit, as he does for the trip to Earth.)

* Soundwave points out that Zebop is standing in the distance, while Galvatron says that "he ''probably'' is with the Autobots." Yet, Ultra Magnus is standing right next to him.

* Soundwave has a [[Shattered Glass (franchise)||purple Autobot]] [[insignia]]...''[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 3|again]]''.

* Blaster is drawn delivering Broadside's line about "scorch-marks on top of everything else".

* During part of the battle at Allegra's retreat, Hot Spot is with the Autobots instead of Broadside.

* When Blaster explains that the Eurythmans use the harmony even for healing, Ultra Magnus is the one mouthing the words.

* When the Protectobots are combined as Defensor, Hot Spot (the main body) is fighting alongside his combined self!

* In one scene, a cel-layering error causes Blaster to appear very tiny compared to Soundwave.

* And there's even more. Seriously, how much time do you have?

<center><gallery>
Image:Carnage C-minor Magnus Broadside.JPG|"Hail Caesar!" "Hail Thaethar."
Image:Bigmagnus tinyconst.jpg|We'll take revenge by merging into Devastator.
Image:Hotspot defensor.jpg|Hey! Part of me, get back in me!
Image:Soundwaveautobotgalvy.jpg|For some reason, I feel less evil than two seconds ago.
Image:CarnageMiniBlaster.jpg|It's his little shoulder-angel.
</gallery></center>

===Continuity errors===
[[Image:DeceptiBrawn1.jpg|right|125px|thumb|Maybe it's not Bonecrusher, but a rare cameo by Roadhauler?]]
* In one infamous scene, [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] and [[Huffer (G1)|Huffer]] (who should also be dead) show up alive and well. And it seems [[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] has switched sides, as he's helping them shoot at the giant Decepticon rocket engine he just helped build! (Huffer has the wrong paint job, too.)

* To add insult to injury, Devastator is shooting at the Autobots ''before'' the Constructicons form Devastator.

* Soundwave travels with Galvatron to find the source of the harmony. However, when the scene returns to the battle outside the city, Soundwave is with the other Decepticons at the same time.

===Real-world references===
* The Eurythman characters' names are all music-related puns. Allegra and Basso Profundo are references to terms related to classical music, while Zebop Skandana is named after popular music guitarist Carlos Santana and his song Zebop. And the difference shows.

* Eurythma was possibly named after the popular '80s band [[wikipedia:Eurythmics|The Eurythmics]].

===Trivia===
* "Carnage in C-Minor" is widely regarded by fans as the worst episode of all ''Transformers'' series, but this is seemingly due to the sheer volume of animation errors, as well as the glaringly obvious nature of many of the individual errors. However, the actual ''plot'' is certainly not the weakest to grace the cartoon series, and its "continuity errors" have little to nothing to do with the script itself...certainly not to the level of, say, "[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]]".

* That said, there is plenty of inanity to be found in the story too. For instance: Despite the aliens' dialog being in perfectly understandable English (or Galactic Standard or whatever), because they say everything in a sing-song rhythm, apparently none of the Transformers except Blaster and Soundwave can understand them, and the two tape decks spend a large (and annoying) amount of time translating Eurythman to "non-sing-song" for everyone else.

* Galvatron and Soundwave are briefly seen holding hands whilst flying.

* Apparently, a single blast from [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]'s [[lightning cannon]] can cause [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] to disassemble. And [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] believes that intellectuals are weak.

* Anyone else bothered that this "sonic weapon" was used to destroy a comet IN SPACE?

* This was one of several episodes subjected to the [[MSTF]] treatment at [[BotCon 1999]].

==External links==
* [http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/carnage_in_c-minor.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicle]

* [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808817/ IMDb's page for this episode]

[[Category:Generation 1 episodes]]
[[Category:MSTF]]

Superion (ROTF)

2009-06-13T22:33:26Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Superion}}
:''Superion is a [[Autobot]] from the ''[[Revenge of the Fallen]]'' portion of the [[live-action film series]] [[Continuity family]].''

'''Superion''' is the combined form of the [[Aerialbot (ROTF)|Aerialbots]]:

*[[Silverbolt (ROTF)|Silverbolt]]
*[[Air Raid (Movie)|Air Raid]]
*[[Fireflight (ROTF)|Fireflight]]
*[[Skydive (Movie)|Skydive]]
*[[Airazor (ROTF)|Airazor]]

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
[[Image:Universe2008 Superion.jpg|right|250px|thumb|''Same as it ever was/Same as it ever was'']]
*'''Superion''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

: The Target-[[exclusive]] ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Superion is a redeco of ''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]'' [[Air Team]]/[[Superion Maximus]] combiner. Superion is composed of his five team members, with Silverbolt forming his central body component. His limbs' [[Energon weapon|energon weapons]] form his hands and feet. Similarly to [[Generation 1]]'s [[Combiner#Terms_for_combiners|Scramble City]] combiner teams, Superion feature universal connection points for the limbs, allowing many different combinations and even swapping of limbs from different teams.

:This mold was previously sold as ''[[Universe (2008)|Universe]]'' [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] with no changes.

==Trivia==
* According to the instructions and packaging photos, Airazor forms Superion's right arm, Fireflight forms his left arm, Skydive forms his right leg, and Air Raid forms his left leg. However, the layout of the figures in the packaging nominally puts Skydive as his right arm, Airazor as his left arm, Air Raid as his right leg, and Fireflight as his left leg. And because his limbs are all interchangeable, you can have it either way! Or neither way!

[[Category:Aerialbots]]
[[Category:Combined forms]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Target exclusives]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]

Wreck-Gar (Animated)

2009-06-13T20:14:33Z

72.128.51.130: /* Animated cartoon */ altered caption to be a line from Dare to be Stupid as opposed to Christmas at Ground Zero

{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
{{disambig2|the garbage truck from ''Transformers Animated''|the Junkion from Generation 1|Wreck-Gar (G1)}}
:''Wreck-Gar is a very confused individual from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Wreck-garanimatedpoint.jpg|right|360px|thumb|Put down that chainsaw and listen to me!]]
Recently brought to life by the power of the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]], '''Wreck-Gar''' is simple-minded and highly suggestible. As he attempts to learn more about his identity, he never loses his sense of humor. His trash bin is an impressive bag of tricks, able to stash and deploy many useful (and even more useless) items at a moment's notice, or make them seemingly disappear forever. This ability is a bit of a mixed blessing, as Wreck-Gar will frequently confuse your request with something that sounds vaguely similar.

Wreck-Gar's primary goal in life is to acquire an identity. Additionally, he is eager to help people and be liked. He will automatically take on whatever role is suggested to him. This makes him rather unpredictable and prone to making the wrong move at the wrong time. However, if he can learn to think for himself instead of relying on others, there's potential in this friendly mix-and-match bot.

{{bigquote|I am Wreck-Gar! I am only good for one thing... '''GARBAGE!'''|Wreck-Gar cheerily takes [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] at his word, "[[Garbage In, Garbage Out]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [["Weird Al" Yankovic|"Weird Al" Yankovic]] (English), [[Joachim Kaps]] (German)

[[Image:Wreck-garisgoodforonlyonething.jpg|left|180px|thumb|OKAY I CAN HEAR YOU NOW!]]

Wreck-Gar emerged from a garbage scow, activated by a shard of [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] energy that was close to [[Sari Sumdac]]'s [[Key]], self-aware but with no sense of history or identity. He tried to figure out what he was by studying objects in his environment and was briefly tricked by a food label into thinking he was high-fructose corn syrup. Spying a blimp proclaiming the [[Detroit]] Metro Police Department was "here to help", Wreck-Gar went off in search of the police for help. Once ashore, Wreck-Gar's clumsy curiosity prevented police officers from apprehending the [[Angry Archer]], and the villain quickly conscripted Wreck-Gar as a sidekick, even giving the confused mechanoid his new, shorter name (as "worthless-''wreck''-walking-pile-of-''gar''bage" was a bit overlong). Wreck-Gar helped the Archer disable an armored car, allowing him to steal a canister of unknown content right in front of the [[Autobot]]s [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] and [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]].

Upon seeing the Autobots and overhearing that they protected life and caught bad guys, Wreck-Gar decided he wanted to do that, slapped an [[Insignia|Autobrand]] on his chest, and chased the escaping Archer. Throwing the Archer high into the air in order to "catch" him, Wreck-Gar only got the canister, as the Archer used a grappling arrow to escape. After being harshly told by Ratchet he was only good for one thing, ''GARBAGE!'', Wreck-Gar proudly declared he was good for only one thing—''GARBAGE!''—and set about trying to deliver the stinky stuff to the entire citizenry of Detroit. (Detroit just happened to be in the middle of a garbage strike as well. Hooray!) The Autobots gave chase, having discovered the canister Wreck-Gar held contained experimental [[Sumdac Systems]] garbage-eating microbots, which Ratchet worried would be dangerously mutated by Wreck-Gar's AllSpark energy.

[[Image:Wreck-garanimatedvehicle.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Buy some sensible shoes and a Chevrolet!]]

This mission became much more dangerous when he was approached by [[Lugnut]], who was out to retrieve the AllSpark shard from Wreck-Gar's body. Thanks to Wreck-Gar's habit of repeating everything said to him (specifically, Ratchet's proclamation that "you're not an Autobot, and you never ''will be'' an Autobot!"), Lugnut believed the newcomer was just as much a loyal [[Decepticon]] as himself. When Ratchet accosted Wreck-Gar, Lugnut prepared his [[Punch of Kill Everything]], which Wreck-Gar took to mean the [[universal greeting]], so he gave Lugnut a high-five that left a colossal impact crater. As the Autobots ran for it, Wreck-Gar hopped on the pursuing Lugnut, pulling out the now-cracked microbot canister he'd gotten. A small amount spilled on Lugnut and began eating through his tail section. Wreck-Gar helpfully disassembled the tail, sending Lugnut plummeting somewhere in Detroit, with himself and the tail landing in a full garbage scow, which the nanobots quickly began to consume. From the shore, a group of bystanders began cheering as they saw the scow's load diminish. Now supplied with a fresh load of garbage and mistaking the cheers as intended for his delivery of said garbage, Wreck-Gar pushed the scow full steam ahead.

Wreck-Gar's attempt to deliver it was impeded by Ratchet, who first screamed at the junk-bot that the nanobots would destroy the entire city should they reach shore, but Wreck-Gar was adamant. Ratchet then did the hardest thing he'd ever had to do: ''apologize'' for his insults and bad attitude. Ratchet told the now-even-more-confused robot that he could be whatever he wanted and to not let others decide for him who he was. Wreck-Gar decided he truly wanted to be a hero, and slapping the Autobot symbol on his chest once again, began vacuuming up the nanobots. The nanobots began to overload within his backpack, however, and as Wreck-Gar tumbled off of what was left of the scow, he cried out his thank-you to Ratchet. An explosion of AllSpark energy burst from the water, and all Ratchet's magnetic power could retrieve was random junk...

And, at the bottom of the lake, Wreck-Gar smiled to himself, a hero. Despite being buried up to his shoulders, he assured the fish passing by he was there to help...but first...could somebody give him a hand or a fin? {{storylink|Garbage In, Garbage Out}}

[[Image:Wreck Gar Polka Party.jpg|thumb|180px|left|You better squeeze all the Charmin you can, when Mr. Whipple's not around!]]

Eventually roused from his lakebed slumber by the crude raft of Sari Sumdac's [[Scrapper (Animated)|ragtag]] [[Snarl (Animated)|crew]], he joined the [[Substitute Autobots]] to help liberate Detroit from the grip of [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]]. A bit less befuddled than in previous encounters, he proved (mostly) effective in aiding Sari in battle, only being defeated once Soundwave was able to focus his attentions solely on controlling [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]. Afterward, he enthusiastically pitched in on the cleanup efforts, collecting the scraps of hundreds of [[Porter C. Powell]]'s damaged Soundwave toys.

[[Image:TFAni_Human_Error_Part2_Wreck-Gar_Merry_Trashmas.jpg|thumb|right|180px|Look for Mr Goodbar.]]

He even got into the [[Christmas|holiday]] spirit a bit, playing Santa and handing out garbage to all the good little girls and boys. {{storylink|Human Error, Part II}}

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Animated===
[[Image:Wreckgaranimatedvoyager.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Ya gotta buy one if you wanna get one free!]]
*'''Wreck-Gar''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Accessories'': 2 scissor-blade weapons

: Wreck-Gar transforms into a garbage truck with articulated lifting-forks. Pushing a small spring-loaded lever on the back of either of the lifting forks will extend the fork forward. The sliding lever on the top of the truck exposes both of his weapons from slots in the rear. These blade- or scissor-like weapons can attach to his forearms, or combine into a single bladed weapon which can also attach to either of his forearms. (Don't run with them!) His [[Shellformer|transformation]] involves pulling nearly his entire robot mode out from under the truck mode, meaning he wears his vehicle mode like a backpack. However, you don't care because Wreck-Gar is awesome (and it's show-accurate).

:According to the back of his box, he collects things others throw out, watches more TV than even Bumblebee, and believes everything he reads on the internet. How he manages to watch TV and browse the internet ''at the bottom of a river'' is unknown, but this is still awesome.

==Notes==
* Originally, the creators wanted [[Eric Idle]] to play Wreck-Gar, as he was the original voice for his [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Generation 1 namesake]]. As Idle was busy with the production of ''Spamalot'', Weird Al was selected instead.

* Wreck-Gar's head is an old-fashioned portable TV set, complete with channel selection dials, aerial and a handle for transport. As art director/character designer [[Derrick Wyatt]] has admitted to being heavily influenced by [[wikipedia:Gainax|Gainax]] shows, this may well be a visual cue to [[wikipedia:FLCL|FLCL]], along with the resemblance to the original Wreck-Gar's head and his "TV talk" persona.

* Wreck-Gar's line "I ''dare'' to be stupid!" is something of a double-callout, as the Weird Al song "[[Dare to Be Stupid]]" was featured in the original [[The Transformers: The Movie|''Transformers'' movie]] during the battle against the [[Junkions]], and Wreck-Gar himself is voiced by Al.

* Then, of course, there's the accordion in one of the above images. Al himself has been an accordion player since the age of 7.

* ''Transformers Animated'' story editor [[Marty Isenberg]] stated in an interview that the idea of a garbage bin that Wreck-Gar can pull anything out of was inspired by Harpo Marx.<ref>[http://www.cvcomics.com/artandstory/?p=242 CVComics.com's Art & Story 68 audio interview with Marty Isenberg.]</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]

Jetfire (Movie)

2009-06-11T13:24:32Z

72.128.51.130: /* Revenge of the Fallen film */ Turturro said on some tv program his is NOT Jetfire's VA

{{factions|decepticon|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Jetfire}}
:''Jetfire is a [[Decepticon]] and [[Autobot]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:ROFT Jetfire Bay clip.jpg|thumb|350px|Rust in my aft you say!?]]

'''Jetfire'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s not what he used to be. His body went south years back. His bunny is dead on the wheel. He's got rust in places he didn't even know he had. Basically, Jetfire's old! An ancient Decepticon [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]], Jetfire was around long before the war broke out, and unlike many, came to see his "comrades" for what they were. This caused him to defect to the Autobots, something virtually unheard of. He's a fine asset, powerful and possessing the ability to teleport across great distances. This is slightly offset by the fact he's so old, his processor gave up the ghost millennia ago. These days he has a hard enough time remembering his name. It makes him a bit of crotchety and also leaves him with the nagging feeling he's forgotten something important.

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance4_Jetfire.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Hopefully I won't end up on some [[earth|god forsaken planet]] and be infested with [[Maximal|disgusting little critters.]]]]
In the distant past, the [[All Spark (Movie)|All Spark]] Cube created [[Thirteen original Transformers|a race]] of powerful, trans-dimensional beings as the first inhabitants of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The Cube gave these beings mighty powers, as well as terraforming their world, but it was not limitless, and gradually became depleted. The first beings learned that the All Spark's power could be replenished by harvesting the energy of stars, but they were unable to locate new stars to suit their purposes, despite their amazing ability to travel between dimensions. Once again, the Cube came to the rescue, creating a race of workers, who had the ability to change their shape.

Jetfire was among the very first of these new beings, a "[[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]]" with the ability to travel across the vastness of space in search of new suns. Once located, he would lead others and his masters back to it so a [[harvester]] could be constructed to drain the energy of these stars, thus replenishing the All Spark. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 4}} It is assumed that at some point during the civil war on Cybertron, he sided with [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], the new protege of Jetfire's only surviving ancient master, [[The Fallen]].
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film===

{{comingsoon}}
{{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen (film)}}

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF Jetfire 2009 Legends.JPG|right|250px|thumb|It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage.]]
*'''Jetfire''' (Legends class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''EZ-05'''

:Legends class ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Jetfire transforms from a into a tiny [[Wikipedia: SR-71 Blackbird|SR-71 Blackbird]] spy plane to a sort of hunchback robot. In a bit of character design accuracy, his left arm has a cane.

:The upper fuselage of the plane mode has a thin rectangular peg for a ''mysterious'' reason.
{{-}}

====Leader Class toys====
[[Image:Jetfire ROTF leader toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|"You know, I've personally flown over 194 missions, and I was shot down in every one. Come to think of it, I've never landed a plane in my life."]]
*'''Jetfire''' (Leader class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-13'''
**''Accessories:'' Front landing gear/walking stick, rotary cannon missile launcher, projectile

:Jetfire features electronic lights and sounds. And by sounds, we mean he talks like a Scotsman. Seriously.
{{comingsoontoy}}

{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Jetfire ROTF FAB toy.jpg|right|thumb|300px|NOBODY MOVE...I dropped me cane...]]
*'''Photon Missile Jetfire''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)
**''Accessories:'' "Photon Missile" projectile

: [[Fast Action Battler]] Jetfire is a simplified, roughly Deluxe-sized toy of Jetfire. In vehicle mode, he transforms into a sort of cute, super-deformed SR-71 Blackbird jet. As with most ''Transformers'' toy jets, he has a fair bit of undercarriage junk from his robot mode, though not to the extent of the Leader class toy. In robot mode he has a reasonably accurate depiction of Jetfire's design, though his right arm ends in a spring-loaded projectile launcher shaped like a rotary cannon.
{{-}}

==Notes==
* Jetfire's ancient cybertronian vehicle mode as seen in [[IDW Publishing]]'s "[[Defiance issue 4]]" bears more than a passing similarity with the starship ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]'' from ''[[Beast Wars]]''.

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Elderly Transformers]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Seekers]]
[[Category:Turncoats]]

Mixmaster (Movie)

2009-06-04T21:33:01Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Mixmaster}}
:''Mixmasters are mass-produced [[Autobot]]/[[Decepticon]] units from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Mixmaster-gamedrone.jpg|right|275px|thumb|Shoulda been "Block Head", but nooooooooooooooooooooo.]]
'''Mixmaster''' units are large machines that convert into cement mixer trucks. Both the Autobot and Decepticon armies make use of these drones. They are very slow, but very determined, heavily-armored and heavily-armed to boot, making them very dangerous opponents. They have yet to demonstrate any "beats", although it would be reasonable to assume that they are "fresh".

Sometimes there are lots of him.

On both sides.

==Games==
===''Battle For the Allspark'' online game===
[[Image:Mixmaster head.jpg|left|125px|thumb|Mixmaster units can be either Autobot (top) or Decepticon (bottom). Almost as confusing as in the cartoon.]]
Mixmasters are differentiated by little more than the make of their noggins; Autobot versions use a facemask-with-visor model, while Decepticons has a lens-head. Mixmaster drones on both sides have unstoppable attack power, good defense, but little speed.

===''Transformers: The Game'' (console)===
Mixmasters are rarely-seen foes; Decepticon units are dark green, while Autobot units are yellow. They are shielded against artillery (they don't even stop to block, they just keep coming) and shrug off melee attacks as well; the only way to damage them is to knock them down by throwing something at them, then picking the drone itself up and hurling it. They are armed with heavy rocket launchers with a slow rate of fire, but nasty punch. Along with [[Longarm (Movie)|Longarm]], they are one of the hardest and most annoying drones.

A Decepticon Mixmaster drone waited for [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] in [[Tranquility]] when [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] was being hounded by both [[Sector Seven]] forces and the Decepticons. Both sides sent Mixmasters after each other in [[Mission City]], and a few popped up in "sub-missions".

===''Transformers: The Game'' (PSP)===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Daniel Ross]]

Mixmaster can be unlocked by completing the game. Unlike the console version's colors, he's white.

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* The Mixmaster drone was one of two types of drone (the other being [[Scrapper (Movie)|Scrapper]]) whose names were put up for voting on the game's web-site during development. Scrapper eventually got a toy in the form of [[Dirt Boss (ROTF)]]. The fate of this Mixmaster as a toy is uncertain.

* The other eligible names came from past cement-mixer ''Transformers'' characters, including "[[Quickmix (disambiguation)|Quickmix]]", "[[Takedown]]" and "[[Buckethead]]".

==External links==
* [http://www.transformersgame.com/battle/index.html ''Battle For the Allspark'' online game]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Mass-produced Transformers]]
[[Category:Drones]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Video game-only characters]]

Mixmaster (Movie)

2009-06-04T21:32:41Z

72.128.51.130: /* Trivia */

{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Mixmaster}}
:''Mixmasters are mass-produced [[Autobot]]/[[Decepticon]] units from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Mixmaster-gamedrone.jpg|right|275px|thumb|Shoulda been "Block Head", but nooooooooooooooooooooo.]]
'''Mixmaster''' units are large machines that convert into cement mixer trucks. Both the Autobot and Decepticon armies make use of these drones. They are very slow, but very determined, heavily-armored and heavily-armed to boot, making them very dangerous opponents. They have yet to demonstrate any "beats", although it would be reasonable to assume that they are "fresh".

Sometimes there are lots of him.

On both sides.

==Games==
===''Battle For the Allspark'' online game===
[[Image:Mixmaster head.jpg|left|125px|thumb|Mixmaster units can be either Autobot (top) or Decepticon (bottom). Almost as confusing as in the cartoon.]]
Mixmasters are differentiated by little more than the make of their noggins; Autobot versions use a facemask-with-visor model, while Decepticons has a lens-head. Mixmaster drones on both sides have unstoppable attack power, good defense, but little speed.

===''Transformers: The Game'' (console)===
Mixmasters are rarely-seen foes; Decepticon units are dark green, while Autobot units are yellow. They are shielded against artillery (they don't even stop to block, they just keep coming) and shrug off melee attacks as well; the only way to damage them is to knock them down by throwing something at them, then picking the drone itself up and hurling it. They are armed with heavy rocket launchers with a slow rate of fire, but nasty punch. Along with [[Longarm (Movie)|Longarm]], they are one of the hardest and most annoying drones.

A Decepticon Mixmaster drone waited for [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] in [[Tranquility]] when [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] was being hounded by both [[Sector Seven]] forces and the Decepticons. Both sides sent Mixmasters after each other in [[Mission City]], and a few popped up in "sub-missions".

===''Transformers: The Game'' (PSP)===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Daniel Ross]]

Mixmaster can be unlocked by completing the game. Unlike the console version's colors, he's white.

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* The Mixmaster drone was one of two types of drone (the other being [[Scrapper (Movie)|Scrapper]] whose names were put up for voting on the game's web-site during development. Scrapper eventually got a toy in the form of [[Dirt Boss (ROTF)]]. The fate of this Mixmaster as a toy is uncertain.

* The other eligible names came from past cement-mixer ''Transformers'' characters, including "[[Quickmix (disambiguation)|Quickmix]]", "[[Takedown]]" and "[[Buckethead]]".

==External links==
* [http://www.transformersgame.com/battle/index.html ''Battle For the Allspark'' online game]

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Mass-produced Transformers]]
[[Category:Drones]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Video game-only characters]]

Brawl (Movie)

2009-05-31T17:02:06Z

72.128.51.130: /* Deluxe Class Toys */ ROTF Brawl's a retool because the shoulders have been altered.

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Brawl}}
{{disambig3|Devastator}}
:''Brawl is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|2007 movie franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]]. He is sometimes referred to as '''Devastator'''.''

[[Image:Brawl-cyber-slammer-boxart.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Maybe he was talking to Devastator earlier and got confused.]]
To say '''Brawl''' is a warrior is like calling [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] a hunk of metal. Brawl does not just enjoy fighting, he is consumed by it. Tearing Autobots apart is embedded into his very core, and every fiber-optic cable of his being is obsessed with wild, unyielding combat. The only thing he enjoys, or even cares about, is the fury of battle. And he ''loves'' a good explosion. Particularly if it's one he created, and if it was an [[Autobot]] that is exploding.

{{bigquote|These things just don't die.|[[William Lennox]] on Brawl's durability|''[[Transformers (2007)|Transformers]]''}}

:''Hungarian name:'' '''Huligán''' / '''Pusztító'''
:''Chinese name (Taiwan):'' '''Hūng-tīen Léi''' (轟天雷, "Rumbling Thunder" for Brawl) / '''Pō-hùai Chě''' (破壞者, "Destructor" or "Destroyer" or "Buster" for Devastator)

== Fiction ==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance3_BrawlCrankcaseBarricade.jpg|thumb|left|200px|]]

Many years in the past, Brawl was a member of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron's]] defense forces, under the command of Protector [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]]. After the discovery of a [[The Fallen|mysterious relic]] and an alien attack {{Storylink|Defiance issue 1}}, Megatron changed significantly, altering the military's mission from one of protection of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] to making war upon the hostile aliens and anybody who would stand in their way. {{storylink|Defiance issue 2}} Brawl was sent on a mission to capture science division leader (and thorn in Megatron's side) [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus]] and eliminate his fellow scientists and the unwitting security team sent to arrest him. Brawl fired an explosive round that scattered the "traitors", but the wily Optimus managed to bury [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and his fliers under a mountain of rubble. They survived survived and subsequently joined Megatron's new "Decepticon" faction. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

[[Image:Movie Brawl protoform.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Spacebrawls]]

During the war, while [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream's]] forces assaulted the Autobots at [[Tyger Pax]], Brawl bashed his way past faltering Autobot defenders, bringing news that Megatron knew where the All Spark was. When Starscream excitedly declared that he must go to the cube, Brawl questioned his loyalty, prompting [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] to threaten the latter with violence lest he not take the group to Megatron. After witnessing Megatron leave Cybertron to chase after the escaping All Spark, the Decepticons followed. {{storylink|Planetfall}}

They boarded a Decepticon battlecruiser and gave chase to [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime's]] starship, only to fall prey to an Autobot trap. After repairing their ship, they followed the All Spark's trace energy pulse to the fourth planet of a distant solar system, where they encountered [[Beagle 2 Rover]] a primitive lifeform that have could have been born from the All Spark's energy. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 1}}

The Decepticons landed on Earth and were detected by a nearby [[United States Military|US air base]], which sent an armoured personnel carrier to investigate. Brawl took the words right out of Bonecrusher's mouth, remarking that at last there was something to kill. Wreckage assumed the form of the carrier vehicle, destroyed it, then led Starscream's unit to the base. Brawl trans-scanned a nearby human tank and joined the others in leveling the base. {{storylink|Planetfall}}

{{note|In the panel where the Decepticons react to the arrival of the armoured personnel carrier, it is likely that Bonecrusher's speech bubble regarding the military base was actually meant for Wreckage (as the latter was the one who tracked the base location), and that Brawl was incorrectly given Bonecrusher's own speech bubble about killing things.}}

===Titan Magazines ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Movie Devastator TitanIssue2.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Yeah, I got two names - wanna make something of it?!]]

<strike>Brawl</strike> Devastator was known as [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]]'s "pet weapon of mass destruction". Nonchalant and cavalier (he even has bandoliers of bullets!), he follows a single guiding principle - "keep it ''stupid''... simple!".

He also looks physically similar to Brawl, whose some other guy. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 3|#3's Mech Mail}}

Megatron threw him at the Autobots so he could reach the [[All Spark]], and had armed him with a foldspace warhead. When the Autobots pointed out that at this range, the warhead would take him out as well, he replied "Eh. So?" and fired anyway. He loves a good explosion ''that much''. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2|Prelude: Megatron}}

Devastator ended up warped to an uninhabited world covered with cities, and out of sheer boredom went around smashing a lot of it before he realized he should try getting off the planet. Yet every time he attempted to focus long enough to find a way to do so, he would be mysteriously and suddenly filled with a violent rage that would make him smash and blow up more stuff. Eventually he was able to concentrate long enough to find and scan a vehicle mode as well as lock onto an energy source he can use to replenish his fuel reserves to leave the planet.

The mysterious [[Flame (Movie)|Flame]], a power source that drove the planet's inhabitants to murder, tried to influence his mind towards rampaging until his fuel ran out; as he got nearer to it, it created apparitions of the other Decepticons that taunted him for his stupidity and attacked him. This failed to influence him as it would require Devastator to have introspection, or care about being stupid - instead, he simply carried on to the Flame, absorbed some of it, and left the planet. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 4|Lost In Space 2: Devastator}}

{{note|The event below is unique to the Titan Magazines comics continuity.}}

A mere half-hour after Megatron's death and before his body was dumped in the sea, Devastator was resurrected by [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] as a mindless zombie, a soulless monster that would only destroy. It's what he would've wanted. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 7|Starscream's Militia}}

{{notetitantlg}}
That other guy Brawl, who was much more wordier when he talked, tore up part of Baltimore as part of a Decepticon campaign to force America into getting rid of the Autobots. Piss off Brawl, we want Devastator! {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Revolution Part 1}}

===''Ghosts of Yesterday'' prequel novel===
Brawl was oddly absent from events surrounding the ''[[Ghost 1]]'' discovery. Whether he was aboard the ''[[Nemesis (Movie)|Nemesis]]'' and otherwise indisposed or joined up with [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] at a later date is unknown. {{storylink|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

===''Transformers'' (2007) film===
[[Image:Decepticons highway.JPG|left|250px|thumb|Bra—um, I mean, Devastator does not care if this is suspicious. He will shoot anyone who objects.]]
Brawl (also named "Devastator" here) was lying in wait at a military depot when Starscream contacted the Decepticon infiltration team, informing them that the All Spark had been found and they were to move out. Devastator acknowledged that he was in transit and [[Roll out|rolled out]] of the depot. He met up with [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] and [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] and hit the highway, though Devastator separated from the group before Barricade and Bonecrusher got on the freeway and met up with Autobot/human convoy.

Arriving at [[Mission City]] in the aftermath of Starscream's opening attack on the Autobots and their [[William Lennox|human]] [[Robert Epps|allies]], Devastator fired shells from his main gun, narrowly missing several targets before running over vehicles abandoned by human bystanders. As the American soldiers fanned out in search of cover, the Autobots charged Devastator. He focused his attacks on [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]], who was forced to somersault over his shells. This distraction allowed the Autobot Jazz to jump on top of Devastator and point his cannon away from the humans. Devastator managed to transform and throw the smaller Autobot off him, but not before Jazz destroyed his left side rocket launcher pod.

[[Image:Brawl Mission City.JPG|right|250px|thumb|Devast—um, I mean, Brawl says, "Surrender or perish!"]]
Damaged, but not down, Devastator fired two rockets from his remaining launcher, missing the heavily armed Autobot as he somersaulted over the missiles. Ironhide and Jazz managed to fire several shots at Devastator, disorienting him. [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] followed up by using his buzzsaw to slice off Devastator's left arm. The humans then fired a volley of sabot rounds while Ratchet supported with suppressive fire, knocking Devastator to the ground. The only thing that saved him was the Autobots and humans' retreat at the arrival of [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]]. Eventually, Ironhide and Ratchet disengaged from the battle as they left to protect [[Sam Witwicky|ladiesman217]], who was escaping with the All Spark, while Jazz took on Megatron. Now with fewer targets to deal with, Devastator sprayed heavy [[machine gun]] fire at the remaining humans, whose leader remarked that the battle was not going well.

[[Image:Movie Brawl dies.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Ah, I'll just read the bullet with my name on it. THAT should settle the argument!]]
Devastator continued to pin down the soldiers until the damaged Autobot [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] suddenly attacked while on the back of of a tow truck driven by Ladiesman217's [[Mikaela Banes|female companion]]. Devastator tried to return fire, only for his machine gun, his last ranged weapon, to be destroyed by Bumblebee's [[plasma cannon]]. With the Autobot's return to battle being the deciding factor, the human soldiers rallied and fired more sabots, piercing Devastator's armor until a final shot from Bumblebee struck Devastator's spark and killed him. Devastator died as he lived: destroying things, for his chassis crashed into the building the human soldiers had taken refuge in.

Devastator's body was dumped into the deepest part of [[Laurentian Abyss]] along with his fellow Decepticons, in the hopes the intense pressure and cold will destroy whatever remained. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)}}

{{-}}

===Deep Desert Brawl toy bio===
{{notemoviebio}}

In the final battle Brawl was not killed, but saturated with power from the All Spark and freed from the influence of Megatron. He disappeared into the rugged land around the Hoover Dam. Making his way over the course of months to the most troubled spot on Earth (presumably the Middle East), he adapted his vehicle mode to the new environment, went to ground and waited. Brawl now gains up energy from the blazing sun, and emerges only to satisfy his hunger for destruction by attacking and annihilating human convoys and armored columns. To those living in the region, he has become a myth, but to those few who survive his attacks he is an all too real monster.

===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
In the aftermath of the battle in Mission City, [[Sector Seven]] hauled away Brawl's corpse along with the other Decepticon bodies. The clandestine human organisation brought the bodies to a secret facility in the Nevada desert, with the intention of getting every bit of information they can out of the dead Decepticons before they were forced to dump them into the sea. {{storylink|Alliance issue 1}}

==Games==
===Transformers The Game (console)===
:''Voice actor'': [[David Sobolov]]

====Autobot campaign====
[[Image:Brawl 2007game wolverine.jpg|left|200px|thumb|*snikt* *snikt*]]
Brawl arrived in [[Mission City]] shortly after [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] took down [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]], [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] and a pair of [[Dreadwing (Movie)|Dreadwings]] single-handedly. The Autobot's victory was short-lived... and so was the Autobot, as Brawl punctured Jazz's chest with his claw, extinguishing his [[spark]]. [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] arrived just in time to witness the killing, and fought through a horde of Decepticon units to destroy Brawl. Man Ironhide is obsessed. {{storylink|Transformers The Game (console)}}

====Decepticon campaign====
[[Image:Brawlmovie tank activision.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I have many, many guns; I can call myself whatever I want! From now on, you will all refer to me by the name... Nancy.]]
Brawl, [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] and Starscream were hiding out in a human military installation in the desert when they received word that [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] and [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] had discovered the location of the AllSpark. When the three Decepticons mobilized, the two ground-based machines were assaulted by tanks designed to fire holding beams of electrical energy, forcing Starscream to back-and-forth babysit the two Decepticons as they tried to escape.

Brawl later stood by [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron's]] side in Washington D.C. after they had retrieved the All Spark from the destroyed Autobots and had decimated pretty much everything in their path. {{storylink|Transformers The Game (console)}}

{{note|Brawl was not a playable character in the console versions of the game.}}

===''Transformers: Autobots''===
As Optimus Prime attempted to rendez-vous with the other Autobots near Hoover Dam, Brawl blocked his only path — a hidden Air Force hangar tunneled into the canyon. He fought Prime with all his might, but the Autobot leader was too much for him. As Sector 7 tanks arrived, he converted to his vehicle mode, managing to con the tanks into his own reinforcements. In his tank mode, Prime could no longer damage him as much and had to resort to smashing the tanks into Brawl to damage him. In the end, Prime put him out of commission. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Autobots}}

===''Transformers: Decepticons''===
Brawl first appears in Qatar, where, under the command of [[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|a Create-A-Bot]], he is commanded to prevent a convoy from entering a nearby village (recognizable by moviegoers as the town where Lennox fought [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]]) to prevent the humans from getting an upper hand over the [[N.B.E.|N.B.E.s]]. At the Hoover Dam, he is sent to capture a human tank, which he retrieves intact so as to interrogate the occupant human. Once the interrogation is done, the tank doesn't stay intact long, as he can be seen merrily destroying it while Create-A-Bot converses with [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]]. Later, he faces off against [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] in a 1-on-1 street brawl involving an apparent grudge over a past encounter. {{storylink|Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|Transformers: Decepticons}}

{{note|It should be noted that Brawl and Megatron are the only Decepticons to survive this game.}}

==Toys==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:Movie2007 LegendsRatchet VS Brawl.jpg|right|250px|thumb|You can take my articulation, but not my desire to kill!]]
*'''Rescue Ratchet vs. Decepticon Brawl''' (Legends Allspark Battles two-pack, 2008)

:Released as part of the ''AllSpark Battles'' line refresh alongside a repainted [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] in his Rescue Ratchet colors, this Legends class two-pack contains Brawl who transforms into a tiny tank and features limited articulation.

{{-}}

====Deluxe Class toys====
[[Image:Movie Deluxe Brawl toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Don't let them know about my arm problem or they won't buy me.]]
*'''Decepticon Brawl''' (Deluxe Class, 2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MD-03'''
**''Accessories'': Missile

: Deluxe-class Brawl transforms into a heavily modified fictional tank based upon an [[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes#M1 Abrams|M1A1 Abrams]], fitted with angular reflective armor, a mine plow and external spare fuel canisters. Mounted upon the turret is a smaller sub-turret housing two anti-aircraft cannons and rocket launchers. The spring-loaded main cannon fires a translucent red projectile.

: During transformation to robot mode, [[Automorph|automorphing]] pushes down on the front of his tank during transformation raises the front of the treads and his head up into position for his robot mode, and vice versa for the tank mode. He is armed with his spring-loaded main gun on his right arm and a flip-out blade on his left.

: There is a design flaw in the way Brawl's arms attach to his torso - the rhombic peg and socket system used does not provide a tight enough fit, and thus the arms have a tendency to detach at the shoulder when moved. There have also been quite a few reports of the teeny-tiny automorph gears - molded out of fragile translucent plastic - cracking and breaking into pieces, leaving the automorph non-functional.

{{-}}

*'''Deluxe three-pack''' (Multi-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: This CostCo [[exclusive]] three-pack contains an unchanged Deluxe Class Decepticon Brawl together with equally unchanged Deluxe Class [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] and [[Jazz (Movie)|Autobot Jazz]] toys. It also comes with a nifty poster depicting all three toys in a standoff scene. Not so nifty is that the box accidentally places Brawl and Bonecrusher's bios underneath each other.

{{-}}

*'''Deluxe three-pack''' (Multi-pack, UK 2007)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: This three-pack, which was available at general retail in the United Kingdom, contains an unchanged Deluxe Class Decepticon Brawl together with equally unchanged Deluxe Class [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Protoform Optimus Prime]] and [[Jazz (Movie)|Autobot Jazz]] toys.

{{-}}

*'''Ultimate Bumblebee Bonus Value pack''' (Multi-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: A Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] special pack of [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Ultimate Bumblebee]] with Deluxe Class Decepticon Brawl and [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] as bonus figures. None of the three toys are changed from their respective original releases.

{{-}}

[[Image:Movie2007 AllsparkBrawl.jpg|right|250px|thumb|[[Personality component]] not included.]]
*'''All Spark-Enhanced Decepticon Brawl''' (Target Exclusive Deluxe, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: This Target exclusive features the Deluxe Class Brawl in unique cylindrical packaging, with the only difference from his standard release being that key robot mode parts are highlighted by the slavish 'All Spark Blue' color for no other reason than [[to sell toys]].

{{-}}

====Leader Class toys====
*'''Decepticon Brawl''' (Leader Class, 2007)

: The larger, more heavily armed version of Brawl, this figure is more accurate to the character's CGI model, with more articulation and weapons than the Deluxe-class figure.

: While having no firing missiles, it does feature a number of [[Automorph]] gimmicks. First, pressing the button on the front of the tank causes his head and chest pieces to move into position. A scoop/claw has been added to the front of the tank, probably to make the lever to push his head back down stand out less. Second, pressing the headlights on either side of the front end causes the paneling to swing back into place. Finally, Brawl has automorph weapons on each of his forearms - his right arm has a quadruple-barreled cannon that extends as you slide a switch forward, while his left features a swing-out claw, deployed by pulling back the arm's cannon.

: Other features include lights and sounds, activated by pushing back on the main cannon or turning the upper turret. The turret sounds can also be activated by pressing the two small buttons on the top of the turret, on either side of the machine gun. A pair of blades can also swing down from the legs.

: Possibly due to [[For safety reasons|safety reasons]] or just the desire on the part of the designers to not see fragile parts break, the main cannon and anti-aircraft guns on Brawl's turrets detach from their mounting points rather easily.

{{-}}

[[Image:Movie Leader DeepDesert Brawl toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|... [[Sandstorm (OC)|Sandstorm]]? Is that you?]]
*'''Deep Desert Brawl''' (Leader Class, 2008)

: An extensive [[redeco]] of Leader Class Brawl in desert colors, as part of the ''AllSpark Power'' refresh of the movie toyline. His vehicle mode comes with battle damage carbon scoring as well as Autobot "kill" markings. His clear plastic parts are cast in bright translucent blue, along with the bright blue paint seen on his robot mode, a color accent he has in common with the rest of the ''AllSpark Power'' toys.

{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Movie FAB Brawl.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Do not taunt Happy Fun Brawl.]]
*'''Double Missile Decepticon Brawl''' (Fast Action Battler, 2007)
**''Accessories'': 2 missiles

: "Double Missile Brawl" is a simplified version of Brawl. Designed for younger children, his transformation is designed with speedy conversion in mind, with relatively few steps compared to the Deluxe class Brawl. Additionally, in an effort to keep the design sturdy for play and safety, he has relatively low articulation for a figure of his size, while the design style of the figure is more rounded and 'friendly'. Two pressure-launched missiles are fired from his two missile pods.

{{-}}

[[Image:Movie2007 DesertBlastBrawl.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Olé!.]]
*'''Desert Blast Brawl''' (Fast Action Battler, 2008)
**''Accessories'': 2 missiles

: A [[redeco]] of Fast Action Battlers Brawl in desert colors. All of the previous gimmicks are retained.

{{-}}

====Cyber Slammers====
[[Image:Movie CyberSlammers Brawl.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"Daddy, what's my name?" "Well, son, your mom and I never decided between Brawl, Devastator, Demolishor..."]]
*'''Decepticon Brawl''' (Cyber Slammer, 2007)

: [[Cyber Slammers]] Brawl is an amazingly cute tank that transforms into an amazingly cute sentient machine of mass destruction. "Slam" his robot mode down into tank mode and he rolls along, slowly transforming back up into robot mode. Like most Cyber Slammers, Brawl manages to cram most of his vehicle mode's major details into a compact, super-deformed version of that mode.

{{-}}

===Titanium Series===
[[Image:Movie TitaniumRM Brawl.jpg|right|120px|thumb|Why do I not look this cool?!!]]
*'''Decepticon Brawl''' ( 3-inch Robot Masters, 2007)

:''[[Titanium Series]]'' Brawl is a die-cast metal and plastic figurine, with an accurate sculpt based on the CG model (or the concept designs) owing to the fact he doesn't need to transform. Being a figurine, he only has articulation in his shoulders and waist. Brawl comes with a Movie-style Decepticon symbol display stand.

{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
====Deluxe Class Toys====
[[Image:ROTF_Deluxe_DeepDesertBrawl_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|My shoulder's fixed. Now buy me.]]
*'''Deep Desert Brawl''' (2009)

:A [[retool]] of 2007's Deluxe class Brawl, this version features a desert camouflage colour scheme similar to the 2008 Fast Action Battlers Desert Blast Brawl. The arm issue from the previous release has been corrected.

{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===''Transformers'' 3D Battle-Card Game===
*'''Brawl''' (3D Battle-Card, 2007)
**''Card number'': '''17'''

: Brawl is a 41-point "Rare" piece in the [[3D Battle-Card Game]]. Constructed of punch-out pieces from plastic cards, he can be assembled into his tank mode, or a sort of representation of his robot mode. Oddly enough, he does not actually have his movie-model head; rather, he uses a recolored version of [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]]'s noggin slapped on the Brawl body.

: He uses the same construction as the [[Wreckage (Movie)|Wreckage]] and [[Blitzwing (Energon Wars)|Blitzwing]] cards.

: His card art was done by [[Lucio Parrillo]].

===Transformers (2007)===
====Transformers Movie Danglers====
[[Image:Movie Brawl dangler.jpg|right|157px|thumb|]]
*'''Decepticon Devastator''' (2007)

:Released by [[Tomy Yujin]] in November 2007<ref>[http://www.gachausa.com/products/transformers.asp Tomy Yujin ''Transformers'' page.]</ref> as part of the [[Danglers Collection]], this toy is a weird plastic [[super-deformed]] version of Brawl/Devastator that pops out his vehicle mode when you squeeze him. This little figurine has a little strap on it so that it can be put on cell phones or portable gaming devices.

:This product is one of the few that uses Brawl's on-screen name "Devastator".

{{-}}

===Revenge of the Fallen===
====RPMs - Robot Powered Machines====
=====Battle Series=====
*'''Autobot Jazz Vs. Decepticon Brawl''' (2009)
**''Number:'' '''02 of 08'''

{{comingsoontoy}}

===Robot Heroes===
*'''Protoform Jazz vs. Decepticon Brawl''' (Robot Heroes 2-pack, 2007)

[[Image:Rhjazzbrawl.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Who Touch Sasha!?!]]
: Part of the second wave of Movie-assortment ''[[Robot Heroes]]'', this adorable, [[super-deformed]] soft-plastic PVC of Brawl came in a two-pack with "[[Protoform]]" Jazz. He has swivel joints at the neck and shoulders.

{{-}}

*'''Battle for the Allspark''' (2009)

:Brawl is part of a set depicting the battle in Mission City with Megatron, plus new figures of Autobot Ratchet, Sam Witwicky, Optimus Prime in truck mode, Starscream in fighter mode and Bumblebee in vehicle mode.

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Trivia==
[[Image:Movie Brawl Devastatorsubtitle.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Maybe his combat subroutines are interfering with his memory.]]
* Working names for Brawl were "Demolisher"<ref>[http://www.hasbro.com/objects/content/wallpaper.cfm?img=wp_transformers651_1280.jpg&brand_id=496&lang_id=1 Wallpaper at Hasbro's website calling Brawl/Devastator "Demolisher".]</ref> and "Devastator", the latter of which had also been a working name for [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] at one point.<ref>[http://www.benprocter.com/SITEv2/HTML/ZOOM_Trans/ZOOM_32.html Blackout-as-"Devastator" concept art at Ben Procter's online portfolio.]</ref> Even though [[Michael Bay]] confirmed in May of 2006 that "Devastator" was ''not'' the final name,<ref>[http://michaelbay.com/newsblog/files/586e45dbd5e89a45846b0ec668a70e03-12.html Michael Bay claiming that the Transformers' names circulating were "aliases".]</ref> screenwriters [[Roberto Orci]] and [[Alex Kurtzman]] confirmed the final name to be "Brawl" in April 2006,<ref>[http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808716430/video/2701721/20070418/2048/2701721-300-wmv-s.35907855-,2701721-300-flash-s.35907881-,2701721-100-wmv-s.35907849-,2701721-100-flash-s.35907874-,2701721-1000-wmv-s.35907866-,2701721-1000-flash-s.35907894-,2701721-700-flash-s.35907887-,2701721-700-wmv-s.35907861- Yahoo webcast with Kurtzman and Orci, revealing the final names of the movie characters.]</ref> and Hasbro used that name for all their toys based on the movie character, he identifies himself as "Devastator" in a subtitle in the [[Transformers (2007)|movie]] itself (even though the garbled audio used for his voice sounds an awful lot as if he says "''Brawl'', reporting"). According to a fan who attended the Australian press conference, Bay had confirmed that he had decided to use that name "Devastator" because he had preferred it,<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1360922&postcount=122 Australian fan griffin-of-oz reporting from the Australian press conference].</ref> while Hasbro considered the name in the movie a "continuity error",<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139268 Hasbro Transformers Future Product Unveiling panel at BotCon 2007.]</ref> and Orci even claimed that he and Kurtzman had pointed out said "error" in the editing room twice.<ref>[http://boards.transformersmovie.com/showpost.php?p=368555&postcount=4479 Orci confirming the name "Devastator" to be an "error".]</ref> Despite rumors to the contrary, he is ''not credited'' in the film under either name.

* The name "Brawl" was previously also a working name for the character ultimately called [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]].<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-images/events/Botcon-2007/Hasbro-Tour/PICT5108.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 Early design for Barricade with working name "Brawl" shown during the BotCon 2007 Hasbro Tour.]</ref>

[[Image:XXxtank.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Protoform Brawl.]]
* According to Picture Vehicle Coordinator [[Steve Mann]], the filming prop of Brawl was a redress of a tank prop made for another movie.<ref>[http://enewsi.com/news.php?catid=190&itemid=11213 Picture Vehicle Coordinator Steve Mann confirming Brawl/Devastator to be a redressed tank prop from another movie.]</ref> Specifically, it was the "stealth tank" seen in the film ''xXx: State of the Union''. Notable changes include the addition of missile launchers on the sides of the secondary turret and a mine plow on the front end of the tank.

*Jazz' move of racing-transforming-boarding Brawl is not completely unlike the scene in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' where [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] does the same thing with [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]]. The DVD's special features confirm this was the inspiration.

* Brawl is the most heavily armed Transformer in the movie, followed by [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]]. Unfortunately for him, he has no chance to unleash his full armament, as many of his weapons are broken before he can use them. For example, Jazz kicks off the four-tube missile launcher on his left shoulder, and Ratchet slices off his left arm at the elbow, blades and all. Don't you just hate wasted potential?

{{-}}

==Refernces==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2007/Decepticon/Brawl/brawl.htm Brawl at TFU.info]

[[Category:3D Battle-Cards]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Movie characters]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Toys with sound]]

Endgame, Part I

2009-05-18T22:21:07Z

72.128.51.130: /* Transformers references */ Swoop also flies

{{disambig2|the ''Animated'' episode|the ''Beast Machines'' episode|Endgame Pt. I: The Downward Spiral}}

{{episode|
|series=Anitoon
|image=TFAni EndgamePart1 Autobots Ready.jpg
|caption=You're telling us this entire series was just to get Prime a jetpack? ''Again''?
|ep=41
|title="Endgame, Part I"
|airdate=[[May 16]], 2009
|written by=[[Rich Fogel]]
|directed by=[[Kalvin Lee]] [[Kentaro Mizuno]]
|animation studio=[[Mook]]
}}
'''The Autobots race to find an advantage over Megatron's control of Omega Supreme.'''

==Synopsis==
At the plant, [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] and [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] are working on Prowl's [[processor-over-matter]] by having Prowl lift some oil cans. Jazz is impressed with Prowl's skills, and wonders why he never completed his training. Suddenly, [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] come tearing in, causing Prowl to lose his concentration and drop the oil can. Bumblebee and Bulkhead skid on the spilled oil across the floor, crashing into the wall. As the two bots collect themselves, Prowl says that they're two reasons he never completed his training. Bulkhead and Bumblebee then explain why they came in so quickly: They've found [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]]'s energy signature, and it's on Earth's [[moon (moon)|moon]].

[[Image:TFAni EndgamePart1 Lugnut vs Shockwave.jpg|thumb|left|200px|And to think, this dance scene almost got cut.]]
On the Moon, [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] continues his efforts to probe [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]]'s memory banks for the [[activation code]]s to Omega Supreme. However, all he's found so far are some prewar datatrax of her school-teaching days. [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] is convinced that his "most loyal servant" can find it in time. [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] takes a moment to goad [[Lugnut]] that Megatron has another favorite, and Lugnut bashes Shockwave aside in protest, citing his great loyalty and never-ending search for Megatron. Shockwave counters that while Lugnut was fawning at Megatron's stabilizing servos, he risked his [[spark]] by going spying on the Autobots for stellar cycles. The two get into a fight, much to Megatron's annoyance, while Starscream gloats and rolls his head out of the room...

At the plant, the Autobots debate their options. [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] says that they need to act now, and that they need to use the [[Magnus Hammer]]. Optimus is hesitant, and thinks back to his past...

:''At the [[Autobot High Council|High Council]] chambers, [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] reviews Cadet Optimus and [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Cadet Sentinel]]'s recent unauthorized visit to an organic world, which resulted in the loss of Cadet [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Elita-1]]. Sentinel makes a final statement that he wanted to go back for Elita, but Optimus prevented him. Ultra Magnus again asks whose idea it was to go to the planet, and Optimus takes full responsibility as the senior Cadet. Ultra Magnus had high hopes for Optimus, even believing he could one day be [[Magnus]], but now that will never be. Ultra Magnus pronounces his judgment: Optimus is to be expelled from the [[Autobot Academy]] and be ineligible for service in the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]].''

Snapped back to the present, Optimus reaffirms that they don't need to use the Magnus Hammer. Instead, he was considering a flight mechanism to keep up with Megatron. Ratchet is resistant, but the other Autobots point out various examples of Autobot flight, and Ratchet finally relents. Optimus says that they need more information, so Prowl volunteers to go and spy on the Decepticons. Jazz vetoes this, saying that Prowl is on the verge of a major training breakthrough, so someone else must go. Bumblebee gets volunteered, much to his own annoyance.

[[Image:TFA-Endgame-ShockwavePointsAndLaughs.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Statement: LOL]]
In the ruins of the [[Nemesis (Animated)|Decepticon warship]], Starscream creates a new body for himself from the shell of a [[Starscream clone|clone]] and a [[protoform]]. However, as soon as the process is complete and Starscream's head is attached, Megatron reveals his presence and destroys the already complete clones. Starscream begs for mercy, saying he planned to make an army for the Decepticon cause, but Megatron has bigger plans in mind for the protoforms: Not to clone himself, nor even Lugnut. No, even bigger—about the size of Omega Supreme...

In the woods, Jazz guides Prowl in meditation, directing him to commune with the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]]. His efforts succeed, collecting the ambient dispersed AllSpark energy in the area and forming it into a solid AllSpark fragment. Meanwhile, Bumblebee is transwarped to the Moon. He manages to avoid being seen, but the transmitter he brought is destroyed when he avoids some construction work that Shockwave and Lugnut are doing. Making his way into Omega Supreme, he finds Arcee and realizes that she isn't quite functioning right. Since he doesn't know how to disconnect her without deactivating her, Bumblebee decides to activate her communicator to allow them to listen in on the Decepticons, and he quickly transwarps out. On Earth, the Autobots are unable to get the specifics of what's going on, but it quickly becomes obvious that Megatron is building something.

[[Image:EndGamePart1-Autobotscantfly.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Wingblade Prime]]
At the plant, Ratchet, [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]], and [[Isaac Sumdac|Professor Sumdac]] work on the jet pack they're building for Prime. Ratchet is having trouble, so Sari scans the device and discovers the problem. Once it's ready, they have Optimus take it for a test run. After he loses control, flies around the city, and crashes in front of the plant, all on five percent power, Ratchet and Sari decide to add some stabilizers. Once those are ready, Optimus conducts another test run. This one is much more successful, and Optimus actually enjoys his flying, thinking back to a conversation with Ultra Magnus...

:''Despite being expelled from the Academy, Optimus still impressed Ultra Magnus with the considerable skills he'd already shown in his stellar cycles of service. Managing to pull some strings, Ultra Magnus has been able to get Optimus promoted to [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] and get him a ship to command. Although Optimus is grateful, he soon sees his ship, ''[[Teletran-1]]'', a rusted out piece of junk. Ratchet is performing maintenance and tells Optimus to ignore the appearance of the ship. Indicating Bumblebee and Bulkhead, he notes it's the young bots Optimus should be worried about...''

[[Image:TFAni EndgamePart1 Optimus FemScream.jpg|right|thumb|left|200px|"What the hell is that noise?" "Oh, that? I'm just driving with the top down."]]

While Optimus flies around the city, he attracts the attention of the [[female Starscream]] clone, who thinks that he's Starscream returned to Earth. Her overriding (and still unexplained) hatred of Starscream compels her fly and attack him. Optimus takes a hit and crashes into the river, while she flies off as she realizes he's not her progenitor.

On the Moon, Shockwave is finally able to bring Arcee's memory to the point where she and Ratchet were attacked by [[Lockdown]]. Posing as Longarm Prime, he asks if she still has the activation codes for Project: Omega, which she does. Pleased, Shockwave pulls her wires and takes her to Megatron. Bulkhead and Bumblebee alert Optimus, who is in quite a funk after being beaten by a "Starscream wannabe".

[[Image:TFAni EndgamePart1 Screamer NotAgain.jpg|left|thumb|200px|De agony of de feet.]]

Finally, the time has come to implant the protoforms into their base shells. They scan Omega Supreme, assuming his form. Longarm reawakens Arcee and instructs her to transfer the access code to Megatron, but she recognizes him and refuses. Shockwave thus deactivates her and prepares to upload the information to his leader. However, Starscream knocks Megatron aside to take the codes, but Lugnut knocks ''him'' aside and receives the codes instead{{m-}}just as Megatron wanted. He knew that imprinting his personality onto the clones risked making them too ambitious, but there is no such threat from Lugnut, Megatron's "most loyal lieutenant"—a description which pleases Lugnut greatly. Furthermore, with the AllSpark fragments from Omega Supreme, they no longer have need of Starscream, whom Megatron immediately shoots, breaking his new body into several pieces.

At the plant, Optimus is being repaired, and Ratchet insists that he must use the Magnus Hammer. Optimus still believes that using it isn't in his programming. Prowl, however, believes that fate makes its own programming, prompting Optimus to think back...

:''Working on repairing the space bridge where it all started, Bumblebee and Bulkhead stumble upon Prowl meditating in a cavern, having failed to commune with the AllSpark so far despite trying for a thousand stellar cycles. Unfortunately, one of the [[energon cube]]s Ratchet was setting up falls into Prowl's cavern. They barely make it out, but Prowl's ship is destroyed. Optimus offers to take him back to Cybertron in about fifty stellar cycles, after the crew finishes there, but notes that with Prowl's help, it could be sooner. Prowl bemoans how he has strayed so far from his path, and Optimus says that he can sympathize.''

[[Image:TFA-Endgame-LugnutsSupreme.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Great, so now we know what the children would look like.]]

Optimus is snapped back to reality when Bulkhead says that he's getting several signals from the Moon. Meanwhile, Lugnut has finished uploading the codes, but a glitch forces him to remain on Omega Supreme with Shockwave to coordinate. Megatron, meanwhile, says that he will take the clones on a test run by destroying [[Detroit]]. As they launch, the Autobots head out to get a visual, while Optimus reluctantly grabs the Magnus Hammer. He asks Ratchet if they can still reason with Omega Supreme, but Ratchet doubts it, as the [[Lugnut Supreme|Lugnut Supremes]] transform and touch down.

[[Endgame, Part II|To be concluded...]]
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] (1)
*[[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] (2)
*[[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] (3)
*[[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] (4)
*[[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] (5)
*[[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]] (6)
*[[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] (11)
*[[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] (12)
*[[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] (14, flashback)
*[[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Cadet Sentinel]] (15, flashback)

|c2=
*[[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave/Longarm Prime]] (7)
*[[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] (8)
*[[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] (9)
*[[Lugnut]] (10)
*[[Female Starscream]] (17)
*Three [[Lugnut Supreme|Lugnuts Supreme]] (18–20)

|c3=
*[[Isaac Sumdac]] (16)

|c4=
*[[Sari Sumdac]] (13)
}}

==Quotes==

'''Megatron''': Can't you shut [[Arcee (Animated)|her]] up? She makes [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] sound like he has his head screwed on straight. 
'''Starscream''': You see? He even likes Blitzwing better than you. 
''[Lugnut bashes Shockwave aside while making his way to Starscream]'' 
'''Lugnut''': No! ''I'' am the most faithful! 
'''Shockwave''': Have you blown a diode?! I'm trying to work here! 
''[A scuffle insues]'' 
'''Megatron''': Oh, for spark's sake...
:—You get what you pay for, Megatron. And these guys are free.

'''Prowl''': I'll transwarp to the Moon and spy on him. 
'''Jazz''': And take five on your Cyber-Ninja training? No dice. You're close to a real breakthrough. And I got a vibe that says we're gonna need every advantage we can get our servos on. 
'''Optimus''': Agreed. We'll send someone else. 
'''Bumblebee''': Who'd be crazy enough to volunteer for ''that'' mission? ''[Everyone looks at Bumblebee]'' Why's everyone looking at me? Why's everyone ''always'' looking at me?!
:—Bumblebee gets tired of all his suicide missions.

"Get with it, Prowl. The AllSpark ain't just in your circuits, dig. It's grooving all around us. Reach out and hook yourself into it. 
:—'''Jazz''', being all mystical ''and'' hip at the same time.

'''Sari''': ''[Scans the boosters]'' You're right. We need to add a microaerator to the fuel line. 
'''Ratchet''': And I suppose the rocket boosters just told you that? 
'''Sari''': Kinda. 
'''Ratchet''': That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever— 
''[Ratchet checks the rocket boosters]'' 
'''Ratchet''': Wait! I've got it! We'll add a microaerator to the fuel line! 
'''Sari''': Hmm, now why didn't I think of that? 
:—Ratchet is either a glory hog or going senile. Possibly both.

"Instilled with my own powerful personality, the clones might try to overthrow me. But not so my ''most loyal'' lieutenant..." 
''[to Megatron]'' "Ah. I am honoured, my Lord." ''[to Shockwave]'' "Hah. Megatron trusts '''me''' the most!"
:—'''Megatron''' makes all '''Lugnut'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s dreams come true. Lugnut responds by showing what a child he is.

==Notes==

===Transformers references===

* Prowl's failure to complete his [[Cyber-Ninja Corps|Cyber-Ninja]] training, as previously mentioned in "[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]]", is again brought up. We learn in this episode that his failure is partially due to the fact that while trying to commune with the AllSpark, he was interrupted by Optimus Prime's crew and wound up joining up with them out of necessity, bridging the storytelling gap between "[[Five Servos of Doom]]" and "[[Transform and Roll Out]]".

* The events of "[[Along Came a Spider]]" are at last revealed to be the reason why Optimus was kicked out of the [[Autobot Academy]].

[[Image:GodGinrai_toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Now, that's some upgrade...]]
* While more viewers will likely be reminded of ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]]'s super mode, ''Animated'' Optimus's new flight attachments (specifically, the colors and details of his wings and gauntlets) are based on [[Ginrai|God Ginrai]]'s flight-endowing [[Godbomber]] components. The flight pack itself, to which the wings attach, doesn't seem to owe as much to the ''[[Super-God Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce]]'' character, appearing instead to resemble the booster pack from [[Jetfire (G1)|the original Jetfire]] (and thus the FAST Packs from ''Super-Dimensional Fortress Macross''). His shoulder cannons also appear to be based on his Voyager-class toy's water blaster.
** The wingless rocket pack also calls to mind final scenes of the original series episode "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 3]]", in which [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] borrows [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]]'s rocket pack to chase [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s space cruiser.

* As he jets into the sky, Optimus shouts out [[Megatron (BW)|"Yessssss!" and "Excellent"]].

*The female Starscream clone returns for the first time since "A Bridge Too Close, Part II".

* The protoforms [[Lockdown]] stole in "Five Servos of Doom" return in this episode, when it is revealed that the bounty hunter appropriated them for Megatron, and that they have been in the remains of his crashed warship all this time. As many fans had suspected, the protoforms are confirmed to have been used by Starscream to create his [[Starscream clone|clones]] in "[[A Fistful of Energon]]" and "[[A Bridge Too Close, Part I]]". As the events of "Five Servos" suggested, the protoforms are shown to be blank, without [[spark]]s.

* Ratchet once again repeats the oft-heard mantra that "Autobots don't fly", a common (if frequently broken) rule throughout most of the Transformers fiction, and one that has received quite a bit of attention in ''Animated''. Like quite a lot of fans before them, Bulkhead and Bumblebee promptly confront Ratchet with the harsh reality: [[Jetfire (Animated)|quite]] [[Jetstorm (Animated)|a]] [[Swoop (Animated)|few]] [[Prowl (Animated)|Animated]] [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Autobots]] have taken to the skies at this point.

* The creation of the Lugnut Supremes, evil clones of [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]], hearkens back to previous evil Omegas such as the [[Omega Sentinel (G1)|Omega Sentinel]] and the [[Dark Guardian]]s.

===Real-world references===
*The scene in which Optimus tests his jet pack for the first time appears to be a reference to a similar scene in the ''[[Iron Man]]'' motion picture, as he starts out using only a tiny percentage of the pack's power and still winds up shooting off out of control. When he achieves successful flight on his next test, he's also just as elated as Stark was. Amusingly, this isn't even the first time David Kaye's played the part of Iron Man, having voiced the character in the ''[[wikipedia: Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes|Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes]]'' animated series.

===Trivia===
* Prowl had been on his optics quest for at least "a million stellar cycles" before he joined up with Optimus...and had accomplished jack squat in all that time. Of course, he could have been exaggerating out of frustration, but still...slow going.

*Megatron purposely started the Shockwave/Lugnut feud, knowing Starscream would try to seize Omega Supreme's access codes, just to be sure Lugnut would be in his most loyal state at the moment of the transfer? Now, that's some sleeky fore-thinkings...

*Shockwave has enough of a sense of humor that he can laugh. Who knew?

*Interestingly, Megatron destroys all of the remaining (albeit inert) Starscream clone shells, instead of reprogramming them to serve him and boost the number of troops under his command. [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] even suggests this, but apparently Megatron prefers [[Lugnut Supreme|sheer brute force]] over numbers.
**Considering who they're clones of, this isn't really that surprising.

*After spending all of Season 3 as a disembodied head, Starscream finally regains his body....only to have Megatron blow it to smithereens at the end of the episode. ''Tough break'', Screamer.

* This is not the [[Matrix Blade|first time]] that an Optimus has taken up a huge, Matrix-related melee weapon for the final battle against a Megatron.

[[Category:Animated episodes]]

Possession

2009-03-19T07:13:30Z

72.128.51.130: /* Continuity errors */

{{picsneeded}}
{{episodenav |BW |season=1 |21 |prev=Dark Voyage |next=The Low Road}}

[[Image:Starscream ghost BW.jpg|300px|right|thumb|"Look, I'm a ghost, okay? Quit being such a jerk."]]
'''Waspinator finds himself possessed by none other than the original Decepticon traitor, Starscream!'''

==Summary==
A violent storm rages, causing significant damage and knocking out power to both the [[Axalon|Maximal]] and [[Darkside|Predacon bases]]. While the [[Maximals]] stash their extra ammo deeper in their ship's hold to prevent undue accidents, Waspinator attempts to get one of the Predacon base's computer consoles online...only to be greeted by a ghostly, shrill voice from it. A power surge hits the bugbot soon afterwards, and when the other Preds begin to wonder what has happened to him, in he comes, announcing his return "at long last" in the same eerie voice.

The voice belongs to [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], Air Commander of the [[Decepticon]] forces and second in command to the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], whose [[Spark]] had been tumbling through time and space for an unknown number of years before settling within Waspinator; as he puts it, he was destroyed defending Galvatron from the Chaos Bringer [[Unicron]], but his spark endured. As a show of his good faith, he pledges his loyalty to the Predacon Megatron, revealing vital information about the state of the Maximal base due to the storm that he could use to plan a sneak attack. Intrigued by the idea, Megatron accepts Starscream into his ranks, but warns Scorponok in private to watch their new ally closely.

The next day, as the Maximals are making repairs to their base, they are suddenly attacked by the Preds, Starscream's intel proving very useful in catching them off-guard. In the ensuing firefight, Dinobot is injured and the Decepticon Air Commander flies rings round Optimus, forcing the Maximals to abandon ship and regroup outside. Happy with their victory, Megatron puts Starscream in charge of holding the ''Axalon'', with Scorponok and Blackarachnia under his command, while the rest of the Preds return to their base, in case the Maximals decide to go for a sneak attack of their own. Once they're alone, though, Blackarachnia shows off her knack for history by correctly pointing out to Starscream that he was [[The Transformers: The Movie|murdered by Galvatron (the Unicron-reborn Megatron) after he betrayed the Decepticon commander]]; she's willing to keep this a secret, though, if she's let in on his real plans: to destabilize Megatron's control and rule both factions.

Deep in the forest, as the Maximals recover, Optimus voices his confusion and concern over Waspinator's new personality; he isn't entirely convinced he is possessed by the spark of Starscream, but as the [[Maximal Elders]] had long since sealed the Decepticon's records, they're not able to confirm or deny it, either. Fortunately, Dinobot's as much of a military history buff as Blackarachnia is, commenting on how Webster's Cybertronian Dictionary has pretty much replaced all definitions of "traitor" with Starscream's name. [[Wikipedia: Pinky and the Brain|Are you pondering what I'm pondering]], Optimus?

He is. Returning to the ''Axalon'', the Maximals call Starscream out to announce their surrender, citing the need to use the ship's RC Chamber to repair Dinobot's (now exaggerated) wounds. Feeling generous, the Decepticon Air Commander allows Optimus and Dinobot to come on board, but as predictably as night follows day, betrays them and strips Optimus of his weapons and locks him up in the hold as soon as he steps on deck. With their leader now his prisoner, Starscream orders the other Maximals to attack the Predacon base, over the token objections of Scorponok. They comply, and the trap is set.

Unbeknown to the Air Commander, he's been duped by the oldest trick in the book; by allowing himself to be betrayed, Optimus has put himself and Dinobot in the perfect position to retake their base, which they do in a dazzling display that forces Starscream to retreat back to Pred territory. Optimus pursues, and manages to best the Decepticon in an aerial dogfight, leaving him grovelling at the Maximal's feet...until Blackarachnia shows up, prompting Starscream to plead for her aid, believing they can still complete their coup. No dice; this new generation is much less gullible than [[Autobots|their]] [[Decepticons|ancestors]], and Blackarachnia has skillfully pulled off a double-cross on the double-crosser, igniting a small energon cache underneath Starscream to "exorcise" the Decepticon's spark from Waspinator's body.

At the end of the day, Megatron gets done fixing the back-to-normal Waspinator as Blackarachnia explains her betrayal; if she didn't, she maintains, she wouldn't have been able to sniff out Starscream's true motives. Megatron reluctantly accepts this excuse, but warns her that it still doesn't invoke confidence in her loyalties. Back at the ''Axalon'', the Maximals are finishing up repairs of their own...everyone but Cheetor, who's slacking off with a bout of stargazing, quipping "Twinkle, twinkle, little Starscream" as the camera pans up to beyond the planet's orbit, showing Starscream's spark screaming mech fluid-drenched vengeance on all within the Beast Wars as he drifts away into the void...

==Quotes==
"What is this? Program does not respond! Waspinator does not understand!" 
"I'll bet Waspinator seldom does! But try not to let it depress you, bug face."
: -- '''Waspinator''', about to be possessed by '''Starscream'''

"Allow me to present myself: Air Commander Starscream of the Decepticon Battle Fleet!!!"
: -- '''Starscream''' speaking through Waspinator, making his grand return.

"Starscream, perhaps the centuries of weightlessness have taken a toll on your neurological circuitry."
: -- '''Megatron''' seems to forget that free-floating sparks don't ''have'' circuitry.

"I'd say [[Wikipedia:Thing (comics)|it's tramplin' time!]]"
: -- '''Rhinox''', free to open a can of kick-keister.

"Ohhhh... Waspinator has a headache in his whoooole body."
: -- '''Waspinator''', as he's put back together yet again. Awwwww...

"Ugh! Starscream and Blackarachnia! I'll have both their treacherous hides! Yeeessss..I'll-I'll melt them down and use them for aluminum siding! Oh, yes indeed!"
:-- '''Megatron''' finally learning of Starscream's traitorous nature. Odd...

==Stats==
'''Original Air Date:''' February 3, 1997
'''Written by:''' [[Ian Weir]]

===Featured Characters===
(''Numbers indicate order of appearance.)
{|border=5 cellpadding=5 cellspacing=5 align=center style="border:#800000"
! style="background:#FFEEEE" | [[Maximals]]
! style="background:#EEEEFE" | [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
! style="background:#FFEEB8" | Others
|-
| style="background:#FFEEEE" valign="top" |
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (2)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (3)
*[[Optimus Primal (BW)|Optimus Primal]] (4)
*[[Rattrap]] (8)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (13)
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] (14)
*[[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] (15)

| style="background:#EEEEFE" valign="top" |
*[[Waspinator]] (5)
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (6)
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (7)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (9)
*[[Tarantulas]] (10)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (11)

| style="background:#FFEEB8" valign="top" |
* [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (1)
* [[Unicron]] (12)

|}

==Notes==
===Animation and/or technical glitches===
* When Megatron "checks up" on Waspinator, his dino head inexplicably switches from his right hand to his left hand.

===Continuity errors===
*Look at the intro sequence with Starscream's spark, he clearly touches down somewhere in the Southwest United States, apparently Arizona. The terrain and creatures in Beast Wars clearly suggesting that it takes place in Africa, then again it makes sense, since "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]" puts the Axalon and the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] within commuting distance.
*Megatron knew a great deal about Cybertronian history, yet apparently did not know the real nature of Starscream and his demise. However, Megatron might have been playing dumb to lure Starscream into being bolder with his actions. It should also be of note that both the Predacon and Maximal Elders had a large portion of his records sealed ''due'' to his history. On the other hand, Megatron ''did'' ask Scorponok to keep an eye on him...
*Despite being born from a Maximal Protoform, Blackarachnia refers to the Decepticons as "our" (the Predacons) ancestors.
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] is absent for the entire episode.
*Why does Starscream imprison Optimus in shackles that he can break out of in about five seconds flat?
*In an interview about the fact above, it is stated that Primal originally had a very complex way of breaking free, but due to budget and time restrictions, this was changed to just him "Busting out". {{fact}}

===Real-world references===
*[[Optimus Primal]] says "Hasta la vista, Starscream," paraphrasing a famous line from [[Wikipedia:Terminator_2:_Judgment_Day|Terminator 2]].
*As he flies away immediately after saying this, Optimus Primal is seen wearing a pair of sunglasses, aping Arnold Schwarzenegger's trademark look from the movie.
*Rhinox's line "It's Tramplin' time" is an obvious homage to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_%28comics%29 The Thing] of the Fantastic Four's catchphrase, "It's clobberin' time!"

===Transformers references===
*Obviously, Starscream himself firmly ties ''Beast Wars'' to established G1 history.
*Starscream's spark, or "ghost" as it was then called, had possessed several Decepticons (including [[Cyclonus]], [[Scourge]], and [[Trypticon]]) in the G1 episodes "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" and "[[Ghost in the Machine]]."
*One of the Predacon insignias on the side of Waspinator's cranium changes into Decepticon insignia while Starscream's spark is inhabiting his superstructure.

===Miscellaneous trivia===
*[[Doug Parker]] performs both [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (standing in for the late [[Chris Latta]]), and the very Starscreamy [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]]. It makes you wonder why they didn't just have Starscream possess Terrorsaur instead of Waspinator.

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]<div id="wikia-credits"> From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</div>