MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Main Page

2009-06-04T15:56:00Z

76.240.201.195: /* Could not connect */

THE FUNNY STAYS.
-The Management

__TOC__

Please use this talk page for discussion about the [[Main Page]].

To discuss site-wide policies, please visit [[Transformers Wiki Talk:Community Portal|the Community Portal talk page]].

==Archives==
*[[Talk:Main_Page/Archive1|Archive1]]
*[[Talk:Main_Page/Archive2|Archive2]]
*[[Talk:Main_Page/Archive3|Archive3]]
*[[Talk:Main_Page/Archive4|Archive4]]

==WHA'PPEN?==

So...what on Earth has happened to the TFWiki? Also, for some reason the old Wikia seems to have gained all of the articles that are now missing from here. (Such as the Season 3 animated stuff)
:Seems to me that we've reverted to a June 2008 version of the database which could be really bad news. Some of my articles [[Macabre]] for example are at the old site but not here, which would make sense since I wrote it in September 2008 before we moved here. I don't even have a login here anymore - Emvee :( [[Special:Contributions/77.102.92.218|77.102.92.218]] 19:31, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::Looks like our brain-damaged friend is back again.
:::There's some more info on the [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51208&view=findpost&p=1155749 wiki thread in the Allspark forums]. Looks like an upgrade handled very very sloppily. I'm hoping once they restore the old database it'll overwrite the changes made in the interim, seeing as how our favorite Idiot Vandal With No Life is on a rampage. (Sigh.) Wiping out his stupid crap in one go would be priceless. (This is Jeysie, BTW.) --[[Special:Contributions/72.79.219.120|72.79.219.120]] 19:41, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Thank Primus. I was worried someone had hacked in and deleted the database. The thought of 6 months work lost filled me with dread. --abates 19:46, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ditto. Dread all round here too. Good to know it's in hand. --Emvee [[Special:Contributions/77.102.92.218|77.102.92.218]] 19:48, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::You know... assuming it does get overwritten so we don't have to worry about undoing it, watching our pet vandal complain about how the wiki malfunctioning prevents him from vandalizing properly is one of the most morbidly hilarious things I've seen in a while. -Jeysie --[[Special:Contributions/72.79.219.120|72.79.219.120]] 20:07, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Don't I know it, I was just having a laugh at that with the other half :) --Emvee [[Special:Contributions/77.102.92.218|77.102.92.218]] 20:16, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::You know, there are some benefits about this. On the one hand, people don't have to worry about being spoiled about TransWarped. On the other, we get to see Assaulthead self-destruct in rage as he can't vandalize the wiki. However, there is one concern: What if they can't retrieve the lost information? -- (SFH) [[Special:Contributions/67.164.210.225|67.164.210.225]] 20:11, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'm assuming that Bookworm made a database backup before he started work. Should be fairly simple to upload it again. Which means this conversation never happened. --Emvee [[Special:Contributions/77.102.92.218|77.102.92.218]] 20:16, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've decided I don't want to think about what happens if he didn't. (Realistically about all we could do is a crapload of trawling through Google's cache, but even then we'd pretty much be seriously hosed.) --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.219.120|72.79.219.120]] 20:18, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::I didn't spot this thread until right after emailing Suki and Walky (one knows the code well, the other is right by the servers) about the situation (though I figure they already know), as I thought it might have been Assaulthead showing a heretofore hidden hacking genius. (Hey, if Bulkhead can be a space bridge genius...) I hope to heck we don't lose all those months of work. Someone really needs to work on that update process... --Apcog [[Special:Contributions/99.158.0.251|99.158.0.251]] 20:21, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::It would be a real pain if all that work was lost. I hope it's not. How long would it take to get everything back up again? --Tribor

Guys, stop worrying and check out the community portal talk page. That's been restored and its last post was only a couple of days ago. Unless that's the ''only'' page on the enitire wiki that was backed-up, the most that could maybe have been lost is a couple of days' worth. (Okay, as soon as I wrote this, that page got fucked up, too.) The main thing to think about is first-time visitors seeing the site like this. - Magnus Maximus
:I just find it sad that the only person who can log in (with multiple usernames, it seems) is the guy with the (so imaginative) gift for profanity. --Emvee [[Special:Contributions/77.102.92.218|77.102.92.218]] 20:49, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::That's only because he keeps making new accounts every time he shows up, since we keep blocking the old ones.--Apcog [[Special:Contributions/72.48.68.223|72.48.68.223]] 00:15, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

What worries me, is... why is the database even that far back? Even if we somehow lost everything, we should at least be stuck in how the wiki looked when we first arrived, but we've been rolled almost three months before that. (The last edits in the histories all seem to be mid-June 2008, but didn't we move here in mid-September 2008?) --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.219.120|72.79.219.120]] 21:02, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
: Yeah, but IIRC we moved in with an older backup and ended up losing a little bit of stuff? -hx [[Special:Contributions/24.30.97.198|24.30.97.198]] 21:14, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::Only a few weeks at most, though, IIRC, not three months' worth. (Not that it really matters if we did lose everything, it just makes me even more worried that this backup/upgrade wasn't done right.) --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.219.120|72.79.219.120]] 21:24, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

:::I just don't uderstand why there wasn't a working failsafe in case something like this happened. I mean come on have you ever heard of an SD card or floppy disk? --E-Bot
Somebody set up us the bomb. --Interrobang 21:26, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

Straight up! I agree, it dosesn't make any sense Dawg. Yo but you know i'm still concerned if something like this could happen again, and if the damage could much more worse than it is now. --The Man 21:19, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::There had been discussion for several months about creating a proper back-up system.
::::No one really thought it was important. *eyeroll* -[[Special:Contributions/207.224.69.82|207.224.69.82]] 23:00, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::I had a look at the page for exporting the database a week or so ago but couldn't work out how to make it give me any data. I kinda wish I'd stuck at it now. Oh well, I'm just hanging out for some sort of official word on what's happening now... --abates 23:09, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Who are we gonna get the offical word from? Admin? I've only been able to track two. This is what really gets me though, I've put more work into this wiki in the past four months than any other time. But I'm kinda doubting that this entire thing was Assualthead, even though his fancy with profanity is some kind of wonderment. I hate worrying because it's like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but doesn't get you anywhere.--AWT88--[[Special:Contributions/98.19.92.58|98.19.92.58]] 23:25, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Walky just [http://shortpacked.livejournal.com/481400.html blogged] on the matter.
::::::It looks like our host decided to spontaneously upgrade our software without warning or asking us first, forgot to make a database backup while doing so, things got corrupted and now he's slapped in the database we had during transition just to get things working while he digs through the backup archives to find the most up-to-date regular update.
::::::(I am not relaxing until this update is in-hand. That's the kind of flim-flam answer I usually associate with "oops it's all gone" unless I'm informed somethign is going to happen AHEAD of time.) -Derik
:::::::OK, I have [http://www.aldenbates.com/allpages.txt here] a list of all content pages on the Wiki from roughly 4 days ago. I am thinking of writing something to request and save the Google cache of every damn one of them tonight. Actually converting them to Wiki format and restoring them is another matter. --abates 00:34, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Google Cache is passable - I tried a few links that I was able to access and they were about at least a week to three weeks off. --lonegamer78 [[Special:Contributions/76.95.138.16|76.95.138.16]] 00:44, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::If you can automate such a thing, I'd say go for it, Abates, just in case. The TV Tropes folks saved their own wiki from a crash with Google's cache, so while it'll be a crapton of work, it'll still be way better than starting over after losing 9 months of work. And if it turns out we didn't need it because Idiot Server guy gets things running again, well... just a little time wasted, then. --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.218.38|72.79.218.38]] 01:21, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Hrm, as I more or less expected, Google throttled me. I'm not sure of a better way to get the cache pages though. :/ --abates 02:26, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

The not-entirely-ultrahorrific news is that the Google cache of every page I've tested for is from March 9th. So at least there IS a record of really everything we've done here; we've only "lost" TransWarped and one or two comic issues.

But for fuck's sake we have to get this nailed down SOON.

First question: is it possible for Google to make a cache of the current lobotomized pages? How long will they rely on their March 9th cache of, say, Kup, before they make a new image of it based on the piece of shit Bookworm reverted us to? Can we ask them to STOP updating?

And does this current incarnation of TFWiki still have the quarter-million implanted redirects to Wikia in it? 'Cos if it does, fuck, we're better off pulling the plug on the site altogether and only putting it back when it's presentable. '''Thylacine 2000''' --[[Special:Contributions/74.73.131.210|74.73.131.210]] 11:03, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

:Agreed. There is absolutely no reason for the site to be up right now. We're begging Google to overwrite their old cache. '''Chip''' [[Special:Contributions/161.203.16.1|161.203.16.1]] 11:39, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

===Another thing comin'===
Okay, people, look here. I don't know jack from shit about databases and backups and servers and whatnot, but what I do know is this:

''This is a fucking catastrophe.''

In the very best possible scenario, we've had a site that's been down all freakin' day. That's if we're very, very lucky, apparently. This is also a site that goes down every single night at 1:10am central time, and stays down from several minutes up to an hour. Every. Single. Night. Like clockwork. This is a known issue and in 6 months, nothing has been done about it.

That's if we're lucky. If we're ''not'' lucky, and I'm seeing no reason to think we are, then we've lost ''eight months of work'', all thanks to some bizarre software update that... does what? Was it even necessary? Was something broken here? Was that whole thing where the site appeared to be working, was that just me hallucinating?

Furthermore, if this required taking down the whole site, ''why on god's green earth was a full backup not made immediately beforehand???''

Daily outages for 6 months, lost backups, no backups before software updates, and a site that's now rudderless. We were supposed to make a clean, sharp, snazzy break from Wikia, show that we'd be better off on our own and didn't need them. At the moment, we instead look like ''idiots'' who can't hack it.

We HAVE advertising money, yes? It is time to find a ''professional'' site host, and PAY THEM for their services so we can in turn get reliable hosting. The free charity hosting thing was very nice, but it seems we've gotten what we paid for. -- repowers, not freakin' signed in.

: Yeah, seriously, what was the server guy ''thinking''? The way this should have been done:
#Ask us first.
#Give at least a week's scheduled warning once we gave permission. (I mean... premiere of the first big TF info in a while kind of is a ''really'' bad time to be doing this sort of thing...)
#Put the wiki in locked-down Maintenance Mode.
#Backup the wiki.
#Upgrade.
#Test it out.
#Unlock the wiki.

:...I'm with you, there's gotta be some webhost we can pay that's better than this silliness. (I'd recommend Dreamhost, but admittedly, while they're more reliable than these folks, I still wouldn't offer it up for more than simple hobby sites.) --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.222.241|72.79.222.241]] 23:51, 15 March 2009 (EDT)

:Yeah, this was the ''one reservation'' I had against ditching Wikia - that entrusting our work to some random host would be riskier than a company that does nothing ''but'' wikis. Every time I mentioned it, I was either patted on the head or ignored. Maybe NOW the danger will be taken more seriously. - Jackpot [[Special:Contributions/216.231.37.133|216.231.37.133]] 00:53, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
::In all fairness, this wasn't "some random host." This would be "the guy Walky pays to host Blank Label, where his livelihood resides." --Rosicrucian --[[Special:Contributions/67.232.209.132|67.232.209.132]] 01:15, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
::Not just Walky, but all the other people on BLC. Near as I can tell, this kind of thing has ''never happened'' with the BLC servers before. '''M Sipher'''--[[Special:Contributions/75.177.130.173|75.177.130.173]] 05:38, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:::And the problem is that Wikia was unreliable too, in entirely different ways. If we'd stayed with them the wiki might be up... but they'd also be randomly breaking things by upgrading without our permission, and screwing around with our content. Personally, I wish we simply had a webhost where we were allowed to do our own backups/upgrades... --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.218.38|72.79.218.38]] 01:21, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Well, we had no real reason to suspect this would happen. Walkypedia has been on this same server, with the same hosting and same maintenance guy for years (albeit it's not a wiki of anywhere near this scale). Bookworm had, previously, seemed to have his act together. We just have to hope that he gets it back up, and that he's properly chastised by this.--Rosicrucian, [[Special:Contributions/67.232.209.132|67.232.209.132]] 01:24, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::It's just that... personally, I'm dismayed we were trusting an "outside" IT person to maintain our site anyway. I had thought Suki and Derik were handling things. I mean, If I'm going to host something on my own webspace from a webhost, I'm of the "Take my money, give me webspace, keep the space online, and let me handle the rest" mentality. Or at the very least, not do anything to my site unless I authorize it and I'm there watching... --Jeysie [[Special:Contributions/72.79.218.38|72.79.218.38]] 01:30, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

I beleve that we must do everything in our power to restore the wiki post-hast. Otherwise we will fall behind so far it may set us back weeks even months just to get caught up again. And if I might add that if anyone copied any of the articales we can use that information help fix the problem. I know it sounds complcated but we have to try. To me this not just a wiki it stands for everything Transfomers are. --D.J.Sky 03:35 15 March (2009)
:Ruined FOREVER, you mean? - Magnus Maximus 04:39, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Aw, jesus, I was ''really'' hoping that when I woke up, this would all have been a dream or something. - - McFeely [[Special:Contributions/78.32.44.57|78.32.44.57]] 06:27, 16 March 2009 (EDT)
:That's exactly what I was hoping McFreely, but sadly it wasn't. I was hoping the site would be back up by now and we'd have four days of work to recreate, but no, it's still down. I mean ''come on'', the half-ass guys over at the wikia have almost everything we've put up in the past four days (not to our quality but still). I don't know guys... I hope it'll be back up by the time I get home from work tonight and might pull an all nighter trying to do what I can.--AWT88--[[Special:Contributions/98.19.92.58|98.19.92.58]] 10:53, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

::It's really a bad nightmare. Oww... I have same feeling with Chris. --(TX55) [[Special:Contributions/61.229.26.192|61.229.26.192]] 11:42, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

===Damage control===
Figured there should be a link here to the discussion Rob started on how to go about fixing all of this: [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]] - '''Jackpot''' [[Special:Contributions/216.231.37.133|216.231.37.133]] 13:52, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

==ROTF countdown==
I can't remember, but was our ROTF countdown thing automated or did somebody have to manually change the number of days left? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:04, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:<nowiki>*blink*</nowiki> Yeah, it used to be a countdown in wikicode. *yoinks the countdown back onto the page from the history and feels sheepish for not noticing it got overwritten* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:15, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::Thank you kindly. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:17, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:::It's showing 101 days again, which is where it was stuck after the crash. --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:00, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::::OOps, shall fix. Thanks for the heads up! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:19, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Derik's revamp. ==

Looked and worked awesome when you showed me the sample, even better now that it's in proper layout. Kudos, man.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:00, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Not sure what else was done, but the image banner at the top looks all huge and pixelated now in Firefox on my iMac. This may or may not stem from the revamp.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 03:16, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::It looks mostly spiffilicious, but there's something off on the Continuities/Categories paddings, as the longer titles (External Properties, Full Series Info, and About Continuities) wrap into double lines for me, where they didn't before. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 07:14, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Doesn't happen for me at 1024, haven't tried it at other resolutions. I did notice that the "Full Series Info" anchor link on the Continuities box is now broken.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:56, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I've had a chance to look at it on the PC at home, and the banner image looks fine there. The Continuities & Categories titles look fine to me, no line wrapping. Go figure. The anchor link for Full Series Info is indeed messed up, though.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:22, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Mrr, maybe it's my font size. I don't know why it's suddenly weird, though, it was fine before.
:::::As for the "Full Series Info", that, and "anyone can edit" and "add to!" in the disambig were all in-page anchor links to various feature boxes' IDs. If Derik changed or forgot to add the IDs on the feature boxes, either that needs to be fixed, or the links need to be fixed. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:20, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

They have ID's-- but not names. (I think 1 or two of the ID's might've changed, I didn't think they were used.) Are you referring to anchors, or...? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:48, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Yup, anchors. The link in question goes to Main_Page#series for example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:52, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::The anchors work-- they're set using the id= in the main page text. I apparently changed the "#editing" anchor to "#editing-tips" to make it consistent with the rest of the ID's used on the page. I didn't realize anything actually ''used'' it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:12, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:::And yet, I click on that link, and it's no-go.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:17, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. ''Now'' it works. Go figure.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:52, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I like the ''idea'' of the autosizing banner, but as mentioned previously, it looks really pixel-y and...well, bad. (Never mind that the Decepticon banner has some sort of smudge in the middle of the "K".) I'm looking at it in IE7 at a resolution of 1280x1024, meaning the banner image itself shows up at 1007 pixels wide. But it looks really junky until I shrink the window down so that the image is below 800 pixels. --[[User:Salt-Man Z|Salt-Man Z]] 16:43, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

== Server Slowdown? ==

Still getting some major lag at various times, and not just at the "standard" time of midnight Central Time or so. For at least a couple of hours this afternoon, the wiki was taking too long to respond, delivering server time-out errors, or else generating a blank page. Frankly, until I was able to see it properly again just now, I was worried we had a repeat performance on our hands. I believe Suki/Scout said she was making regular back-ups, which is good. Is this periodic bog-down going to be SOP until/unless we move again, or is Bookworm gonna do something about it?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:27, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:I noticed that there were zero edits from 13:45–18:56 this afternoon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:42, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::Yep, the site was pretty much unreachable for about 5 hours there, along with Blank Label Comics' site. I was beginning to wonder if the server had died completely.
::The favicon seems to have stopped working for me too, though I can't work out why. The image is still there... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:27, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Five ''hours''? Yeesh. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:49, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And no one who knows why has shown up here to explain or communicated the reason to anyone who posts here yet. Lovely. Favicon's still working for me, at least.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 00:54, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::I called Bookworm in the middle of it to get him to kick the server in the nuts, but I only got his voicemail. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:14, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Peachy. My confidence is soaring now. Well, at least we know someone here has tried to get his attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:40, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

==Been Out for a While==

I figured this would be the best place to do this. First and formost, I'd like to apologize to everyone on the Wiki for not helping in probably our biggest time of need. I have been unable to have internet access for the past few weeks, because the damn hospital wouldn't let me have a computer (and maybe only being able to use one arm on a laptop is pretty damn hard), which means I have been unable to update or edit anything. Hell, today was the first time I was on my Facebook or Myspace for weeks, have finally caught up on Lil'formers and ShortPacked as well.

Anyways, let me explain about these ramblings. Two or three days after the crash--on my way to work--I had some fucking dumbass in a riced Toyota run a red light and T-bone the side of my truck in my door and messed me up pretty good (he fucked himself up as bad as his car) and put me in the hospital. I was pretty damn lucky though, dislocated my shoulder and elbow, factured my forearm and wrist, broke three of my fingers; all on my left arm (and I'm a lefty), cracked four ribs and bruised them too, fractured my tibia and broke my ankle. My right side was farely untouched but still got bruised, oh, and my seatbelt cut into my neck (I've had worse cuts and scars before). This is all probably a bit too much but I figured I needed to explain why I haven't been on here until after everything was fixed.

I do have a few questions now though. 1) I can't log in under my name so do I have to set up a new one? 2) Was everything completely blanked when it came to users (i.e. Page Watch, Contribs., etc.) or can we retrieve that? I guess that's all the questions I can think of right now. Any responses, obviously write on the talk page, or hit me on my IP address Talk Page.--'''AWT88'''--[[Special:Contributions/98.19.92.58|98.19.92.58]] 23:10, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:Wow, that sucks. I'm glad to hear you're recovering though!
:And no, the user accounts were completely scragged. You'll have to re-register. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:10, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

==ROTF==

Shouldn't the newest thing be the Veiled Threat instead of Defiance #4? --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 09:26, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

== Could not connect ==

Was anyone else unable to connect to tfwiki for the last four hours? Are we still having server problems, then?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:09, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

I was ''finally'' able to get back on the site after about 6 hours, and noticed there had been ''only one edit in the past 6 hours''. What gives? Has the site been down the entire time, or has everyone been busy at BOTCON?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 23:38, 29 May 2009 (EDT)
:It's definitely been down all that time for me, at least. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:48, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
::That was downright painful. :( --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:18, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Indeed, its getting to where I see why Wikia is still running, since its actually up half the time[[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 11:56, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Thirteen

2009-06-03T22:39:42Z

76.240.201.195: /* Nexus Maximus */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a [[WARendfeld]] story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)