MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Dynasty of Primes

2009-11-16T13:27:03Z

76.28.72.27: /* Notes */ Tried to fix a broken sentence and added a new up-to-date note.

:''The Dynasty of Primes is a group from the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Cyberglyphics Prime Symbol.png|100px|right]]

The '''Dynasty of Primes''' was the ruling class of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] eons ago. Formed by the first [[Thirteen original Transformers|<strike>Thirteen</strike>]] <strike>Seven</strike> rulers of Cybertron, the Dynasty ruled Cybertron and protected the [[All Spark]] until they were betrayed by [[The Fallen|one of their own]].

{{bigquote|Primes are born. Not made.|[[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]|''[[Revenge of the Fallen (novel)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''}}

==Fiction==
===IDW Comics===
Eons ago, the All Spark created thirteen beings, the first Cybertronians, who had the ability to move between dimensions. They soon realized that the All Spark's power, though vast, was not infinite, and required the energy of stars to be replenished. Once a nearby star went nova, the All Spark created a worker race, the Transformers, who would assist the Dynasty in replenishing the All Spark. One of the thirteen, later known as the Fallen, {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}} decided it'd be quicker to get power by harvesting ''any'' sun, local lifeforms or no local lifeforms. He harvested the sun of a living world behind his brother's backs, only to be caught and told off; next time, the entire Dynasty (all <strike>thirteen</strike> seven of them) would decide on the harvester's use.

In response, the Fallen assembled his own army, the [[Decepticon]]s, and deliberately built a harvester on Earth... in order to draw his brothers into a trap. {{storylink|Tales of the Fallen issue 3}} A great battle erupted as the Fallen fought to gain the All Spark's power for himslef. However, once he had destroyed his <strike>six</strike> twelve brothers' [[sarcophagus|sarcophagi]], he realized that they were able to still act, trapping him in his own sarcophagus. Knowledge of the thirteen faded, and the Dynasty of Primes became little more than a myth. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

Thousands of years later, the [[Science Division]] discovered the Fallen's sarcophagus and the remains of the other Twelve's sarcophagi. As the Fallen influenced [[Lord High Protector]] [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], the members of the Science Division, under the direction of their leader [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus]], studied the remains of the other relics and discovered the [[Cyberglyphics|symbol of the Primes]]. This was the first proof that they had found of the Dynasty, and what's more, the symbol was etched on the head of the Science Division's leader, who was soon dubbed Optimus [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] by his fellow scientists. After the [[Autobot]]s refused to follow Megatron's [[Decepticon]]s, the term Prime came to denote Optimus as leader of the Autobots. {{storylink|Defiance issue 3}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actors:'' [[Michael York]], [[Kevin Michael Richardson]], [[Robin Atkin Downes]] (English), [[Banjō Ginga]], [[Daisuke Gōri]], [[Yasuyoshi Hara]] (Japanese)

[[Image:ROTF Primes vs Fallen.jpg|250px|thumb|left|]]

At least by 17,000 BC, ancient beings known as the "Seven Primes" reached a solar system in their quest to build a [[Solar harvester]], but they discovered the chosen system contained [[Earth|a life-bearing world]], and so six of the Primes objected to using the harvester on the system's sun. The seventh, however, insisted on using the harvester anyway upon weighing the longevity of his planet and his race against a seemingly meaningless organic world. This Prime quickly turned on his brothers and their creed, waging war against them, with those who agreed with his ideals by his side. After attacking and killing many of his fellow Primes and slaughtering a large number of early [[human]]s he was thereafter ever known as "The Fallen." The remaining Primes mounted an attack on their new nemesis and hid the [[Matrix of Leadership#Live-action film series|Matrix of Leadership]]—without which he could not activate the harvester—in a [[Tomb of the Primes|tomb composed of their own bodies]] on the very planet he sought to destroy, using the last of their energy left from the epic battle to completely seal it.

According to Sam Witwicky, who had absorbed the All Spark, [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]] led an expedition where it took him fourteen galactic convergences to get an echo of something, seemingly related to the existence of other dimensions where the theory of relativity was not applicable.

In the present day, their descendant [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] perished in battle whilst protecting the human adolescent [[Sam Witwicky]], the chosen vessel of the All Spark after the Cube's physical destruction. With the seemingly confusing knowledge of an advanced alien civilization in his mind, Sam and his companions set out to find the Matrix of Leadership after learning it might be the only thing that could resurrect Optimus—the last of the Primes—who was the only being who could defeat "The Fallen". Travelling to [[Petra]] in [[Jordan]], Sam discovered the Tomb of the Primes hidden within, quickly discovering the small Matrix. His hopes were soon dampened however, when the artifact crumbled into dust upon it being moved. Nevertheless, he held onto his faith and gathered up the dust in a tattered sock, intending to revive Optimus with it in any way feasible.

[[Image:ROTF-sixprimes.jpg|250px|thumb|You must avenge my death, Simba—uh, I mean, Sam.]]

During a climactic battle around the Solar Harvester between the [[Autobot]]s and The Fallen's [[Decepticon]] forces, Sam died in an attempt to use the remnants of the Matrix to resurrect Optimus Prime. Appearing to leave his body, the six Primes soon appeared before Sam, telling him that they had been observing him for a long period of time, praising his sacrificial acts to save the last Prime's spark. They pronounced him worthy of receiving the Matrix, revealing to him that it is now never merely found but instead ''earned'', then instantaneously resuscitated him. Brought back to life by the six Primes, he was able to fulfill his destiny by reviving Optimus, propagating the complete destruction of the Solar Harvester and the defeat of "The Fallen" and Megatron. {{Storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

{{-}}

===Revenge of the Fallen adaptations===

According to [[Jetfire (ROTF)|Jetfire]], the Dynasty of Primes was formed by the first Thirteen Cybertronians. These beings could not transform, but they and their transforming descendants possessed powers beyond that of the average Cybertronian. The Dynasty ruled Cybertron and protected the All Spark, replenishing it with the energy harvested from stars. However, the Dynasty of Primes was also benevolent, believing that all life was sacred, and refused to harvest stars with worlds inhabited by sentient races. To better prevent abuse, the Dynasty guarded the Matrix of Leadership, an artifact formed by the All Spark to power the [[Solar harvester|Great Machines]] used to harvest stars. However, one of these Primes believed that they should harvest the star [[Sun|Sol]], which promised to yield vast amounts of energy, even though Sol was orbited by a small world with primitive inhabitants, [[human]]s. After this plan was unanimously rejected by the others, this Prime betrayed and killed most of his brothers, but one survived and hid the Matrix in the Tomb of the Primes on [[Earth]], fusing it shut with his own life essense. The Fallen, as the renegade Prime was now known, dispatched the [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]]s to retrieve the Matrix, but they were unsuccessful and eventually abandoned. On Cybertron, the Fallen hunted down and killed every last Prime he could find, knowing that they were a threat to him. A single orphan was hidden away with no knowledge of his lineage: Optimus Prime.

In time, The Fallen encountered Megatron, and directed him to form the Decepticons, promising him the powers of a Prime in exchange for his loyalty. When Megatron left Optimus Prime in stasis lock, the last threat to the Fallen was removed, and he prepared for his return to Earth. However, [[Sam Witwicky]], using the knowledge of the All Spark within his mind, found the Matrix in [[Petra]], [[Jordan]]. Unfortunately, it had turned to dust in the millennia in the tomb. When his heart stopped after an attack by Megatron, Sam communed with the [[spark]]s of the Twelve original Primes, who had judged Sam worthy of stewardship of the Matrix, and instructed him to merge the Matrix with Optimus. The Dynasty then returned Sam to life and transferred the knowledge of the All Spark into the restored Matrix. With the Matrix restored, Sam used it to revive Optimus Prime and give him the knowledge of his ancestors. Unfortunately, the Fallen then attacked and stole the Matrix, activating the harvester.

Using parts donated by a critically injured Jetfire, Optimus went to the solar harvester, recovered the Matrix, and confronted the Fallen. In the battle that followed, Optimus proclaimed that the Fallen had forfeited his right to be a Prime when he slaughtered his brothers, and told Megatron that Primes were born, not made. Realizing he had been betrayed, Megatron and Starscream abandoned the Fallen and used the space bridge he had created to escape. Optimus then impaled the Fallen through the head with his own spear. With the death of The Fallen, Optimus Prime became sole inheritor of the Matrix and the last of the Dynasty of Primes. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (novel)}} {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation}}

===Titan Magazines===

The original Transformers are explicitly stated to number only seven. There's also a legend they might actually be created by some guy called [[Primus]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

==Notes==
* The [[Revenge of the Fallen (novel)|novelization]] and [[Revenge of the Fallen Movie Adaptation|comic book adaptation]] vary quite differently from the version told in the movie, as they were based on early versions of the final script.
[[Image:RotF The Twelve heads.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Give me your... faces?!]]
*Though barely glimpsed in the film, [[Josh Nizzi]] designed somewhat unique bodies and heads for each of the Twelve during the film's pre-production. Interestingly, ''all'' of them appear to have energy glowing within their armor just as The Fallen does.[http://www.joshnizzi.com/TF2.htm] Only seven of them made into the film, though.
*As mentioned in Note 1, IDW's film adaptation showed thirteen Primes. Then, [[Tales of the Fallen issue 3]] only showed seven, bringing it in line with the film.
*The Fallen's bio within the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' DVD/Blu-Ray bonus material says there were 13 of them, not seven. Talk about mythos whiplash.
*Hasbro's recent Q and A interaction attempted to deal with this conflict by establishing that there were 13 original Transformers, but only 7 of them were Primes. This explanation has yet to make it into the fiction however.
{{-}}

[[Category:Factions]]
[[Category:Rulers of Cybertron]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen]]
[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Transformer culture]]

Darkstar

2009-10-27T14:59:27Z

76.28.72.27: Captioning. :)

{{disambig3|Dark Star}}
:''The Darkstar is an [[Autobot]] starship in the [[Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]] portion of the [[Generation 1 continuity family]].''

[[Image:WWE! Darkstar.JPG|right|400px|thumb| Given it was the '90s its a safe bet this ship is "gritty and x-treme."]]
The '''''Darkstar''''' is a shuttlecraft of the [[Autobots]].

{{--}}
==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
[[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] and several others were aboard the ''Darkstar'', discussing the recent discovery of a large amount of "[[Eco-structuring|little Cybertrons]]", when they were attacked by the [[Cybertronian (faction)|Cybertronians]]. As its crew, the ''Darkstar'' was brought aboard the ''[[Twilight (G2)|Twilight]]'', where its damages were apparently repaired. This was very fortunate when the Autobots made their escape.

[[Image:PF! Darkstar.JPG|left|400px|thumb|Wow, even in space Autobots do a [[Mount St. Hillary|lowsy parking job.]] ]]

Though he could easily recapture the ship, [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] opted to let the ''Darkstar'' go and be followed by one of the Cybertronians' pursuit crafts to Autobase in order to destroy them all at once. {{storylink|War Without End!}}

The enemy ship was discovered at some point and in an attempt to get rid of it, Optimus Prime had the ''Darkstar'' flown into the [[K'tord Nebula]]. That area had a reputation of making ships disappear, so it was hoped the Cybertronians would therefor be discouraged from further pursuit. The plan backfired horrendously: the Cybertronians did not back off and both them and the Autobots were all infected with a rage-feeding and -inducing disease that was the cause of the area's reputation. Only [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] was spared this fate, who ended up alone aboard the vessel. Believing he was doomed, he programmed the ship with a message of the events that had transpired and a warning for others to stay away.

However, Optimus Prime and Jhiaxus were able to overcome the disease and save the others, after which Hound came back with the ''Darkstar'' to pick up the Autobots during a short-lived truce. {{storylink|Primal Fear!}}

[[Category:Generation 2]]
[[Category:Starships]]

Talk:Punch (G1)

2009-10-25T11:38:43Z

76.28.72.27: /* Correct Punch Mode? */ sp

== Mosaic ==

This seems as good a place to ask as any: How will this site treat the Mosaic pieces published by IDW in their comics? I ask here because, while "[[Hound (G1)|Rain]]" and "[[Beachcomber (G1)|Reason]]" are relatively timeless character pieces, "Ghost in the Machine" actually provided new information in the form of an "origin" for Punch / Counterpunch, something which hasn't been addressed in his other limited appearances in fiction. It's interesting, I think worth putting on his page...if it counts as canon.

So...do published Mosaic pieces have as much continuity value as the fan-art occasionally seen on the Marvel Comics letter pages, or might they be "official" enough to count as micro-canons and therefore referenced on the Wiki? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 01:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:I think the disclaimer printed beneath them, claiming no affiliation with IDW or Hasbro, makes them fan-art. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 01:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::But we're counting [[Hail and Farewell]] as official, because it's written by Furman and he said so. Are we going to pick and choose which Mosiacs are 'official' and which are merely 'officially published fanart'? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Hail and Farewell was a very unique case where the first and foremost writer of the IDW Universe happened to make a Mosaic and said it was in-canon. It's not really "picking and choosing" when there's just one clearly special exception. Now, I could see an argument for Hail and Farewell only being as official as Alignment (i.e. Not), but either way Ghost in the Machine and the other Mosaics would still be unofficial. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 03:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
:::"Hail and Farewell" is murky ground. It's only been published in Furman's blog thus far, right? I think if it actually showed up printed in a comic AND carried the same disclaimer as the other Mosaics, we'd probably have to treat it as non-canon as well. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
:I'd assumed we were taking the Mosaics disclaimer as seriously as the 'these stories don't count' notice in Legends, (read: not at all) and treating it like the 'lil formers or Microwhosits strips-- "the ones that make it into an official publication are real, the ones that don't aren't." There is some active choices being made on TDW's part after all- they're not going the choose to publish a strip about Death's Head, even though IIRC such a Mosaic is in the pipeline. "We cannot tell an 'official' story about Death's Head, because we don't own him." Unlike the general body of Mosaic strips, which are fanworks- these have to be vetted- Hasbro's not going to let them go to print with a strip where, say, Optimus Prime makes a deal with Satan (to pick a random example of something no major media company would want one of their characters seen doing.) There is some filtering process taking place on an official level with decisions being made. prior to publication. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
::You make some good points, but the fact that the printed Mosaics are required to carry a "These stories are not affliated with Hasbro" disclaimer makes their status as non-canon pretty clear, to me at least. That's much stronger and clear-cut wording than the notice in ''Legends'', I think. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 14:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

== Move somehow? ==

Seeing as how there's a [[Punch (SG)|Punch (Shattered Glass)]], I think this probably needs to go to "Punch (G1)" and have "Punch" change to a redirect to that, for consistency's sake. Could an admin delete the "Punch (G1)" redirect and move this page over, if that's the case? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
:Thanks Chris! --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:48, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
::De nada. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:56, 21 July 2009 (EDT)

== Correct Punch Mode? ==

I'm not completely following the "intended robot mode" leg thing in the toy description. Does someone have pictures of what it's talking about? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 07:38, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Punch (G1)

2009-10-25T11:38:16Z

76.28.72.27: /* Correct Punch Mode? */ new section

User talk:ItsWalky

2009-10-25T00:47:46Z

76.28.72.27: /* Jolt */

{{preview bastard}}

--I'm deeply sorry

[[User talk:ItsWalky/2006|2006 Archives]]

[[User talk:ItsWalky/2007|2007 Archives]]

==Things to say to you==
[[Image:Ttoc.GIF|right|thumb|We approve this message.]]

Just some thing I've been wanting to say to David...

First off, you're a monumental asshole. You have an ego the size of a small planet and it's irritating watching you act like an important SOB when you're basically just a nobody.

Second, your webcomics aren't funny. They're boring tripe that makes Penny Arcade look good(and believe me, Penny Arcade is garbage). Cyanide and Happiness is a funny webcomic, yours is not. Your "jokes" are painful, about like watching Michael Richards yell the n-word as a routine. You don't draw a comic, you draw an opinionated blog. I'm not sure which name suits your crap better, "ShitPacked" or "ShortDicked".

Your liberalism and your love of Indiana get on my nerves. You jab at Mallard Filmore? Yeah, one shitty comic making fun of another shitty comic. Or are you just pissed that his gets in newspapers while you're JUST a webcomic? As to Indiana, I live here, and if it were up to me, the state would be walled off and none of the freaks living there allowed to interact with the rest of the planet. The state is about 3 decades behind the times. But something tells me even you know this otherwise you'd still live here. I sure as hell do not live here by choice and as soon as I can, I'm moving far away from this joke of a state.

And your brand loyalty is typical fandom crap. You have Aaron Archer's rod so far down your throat it's unreal. And Aryan fucktard Michael Bay's rod has apparently joined it. I'd say soemthing abotu Don Murphy but he was born without one. Actually, I can say something- he's Kevin "unfunny asshole" Smith with more body fat. Hasbro didn't give the film to a competent director, just a cheap one. And neither Speilberg or ILM have done anything useful in years. Give WETA, or even Tom Savini a chance and we wouldn't be getting Bionicle bots. You're afraid to not like a Hasbro product. No wonder they don't have to go out of the way to please the "fans"- you'll accept it no matter what. But hey, you personally have been sucking off incompetent British bonehead Simon Furman and his shitty stories for years. There are no gods in Transformers. Unicron was built by a monkey, little man. Furman is dog shit.

And go figure this TF wiki is a joke full of misinformation, insults or outright lies- you're a mod here. You're never right. You're more of an incorrect pompous jerkoff than Defunct is. Right, ban me from editing, as if it would somehow matter, any info you don't agree with is pulled. You only have friends because people feel sorry for you. Me, I have no need. People are a commodity to be used and their wants only get in the way of what I'm out for. Use them and drop them.

Who am I? Go look who added a note about you on Encyclopedia Dramatica's Allspark page if you're not too lazy. As well as past AS, Kalidor, FIRRIB and Hooks entries(the hooks entry especially true). Oh, and just info on white people in general and that idiotic Nintendo Wii. I'm not making it that easy for you.
: Is it my birthday? This stuff ''feeds'' me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
: Duuuuude. Walky may be a dick, but I still ''like'' him for some inexplicable reason. You, on the other hand, are just one sore drama queen.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 17:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: This is some of the most funny stuff I've seen in a while. Comedy PLATINUM. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: Bwa ha ha ha ha. Priceless. I think someone needs to get off the internets for a few minutes. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: Wait, you mean I didn't get drunk and write this? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 05:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: I wish lame puns happened to me. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 20:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do I get the feeling that guy has been permanently banned?[[User:Florky Man|Mr. Florky]] 15:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, an Encyclopedia Dramatica troll. No need to be so harsh on Walky. I, too, like the Baybots, and, I happen to like Bionicle. Also, his Webcomic is one of my favorites. So, if you have nothing nice to say, never ever EVER come back here.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 16:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

==BANNED==

What the hell did I do to warrant a ban, exactly? As far as I'm aware, I don't even think I broke any rules, and if I did, an official warning would be appropriate. I received no such warning. I was not here for trolling and you know that - you use that bullshit excuse to get people to ignore arguments you can't handle. But you, personally, who made this decision, know I'm not a troll.

This is fucking low. I had little enough respect for you down to your ranting against the fanbase, Willis, but this is a whole new level of buggery. If you're going to use your comic to rant against and discredit people you don't like, the least you can do is suck it up when people rant at you back, and not act like a control-freak child.

I really don't think you're aware of your own actions anymore.
*Do the words [[Wikipedia:WP:NPA|no personal attacks]] mean anything to you? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:: Do the words "warning before ban" mean anything to you? Rulemongering doesn't justify a decision anyway, since Walky is one of the people making the rules. There were plenty of personal attacks leveled at me, but I did not report them officially.

::I really find it hard to believe that you think it's completely on a rational level of discourse to claim that the comic strip I draw is about child pornography. If I'm not mistaken about your identity, you've been banned from almost every single Transformers web board you've had an acquaintance with, and I'm only doing this place a favor by getting rid of you. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

::: That's not an excuse. I will openly admit I HAVE been banned from several forums, but only because I repeatedly opposed the staff on each and every one of them; and with good cause, they all have roughly the same problem. People bully others either into liking the movie or to agree with the kind of views you promote - and since nobody can directly attack or discredit anyone, these people(and you are) are left to their methods.
::: For your current decision to be validated, the admins of those boards, boards which are influenced in turn by your anti-fan attitude, would have to be near 100% correct in their decisions, and those decisions would have to occur within a context that would map exactly onto here. Any rational moderator does not base their decisions so much off performance on other boards, especially when it's not even a messageboard they're operating. Two different media. I have openly said I despise all active Transformers boards for their level of authoritarianism, yet level of tolerance towards the pushing of certain viewpoints.

::: Not to mention that you're still operating under the fallacy of Appeal to Majority - that alone means I shouldn't really even have to counter you.

::: And don't even use the "CHILD PORNOGRAPHY" thing as an excuse. Again, any rational moderator would warn several times before a ban, I personally reversed that edit even though it was obviously intended to be a joke as anyone reading this knows what pile'o'bile already is. You have no justification for what you did, but your ego is too big to realise you can actually do wrong with your power. You'll never admit it, but I wouldn't be surprised if some part of you is pissed that I defeated some of your ramblings, whether they were directly written by you or encouraged by you, it's still the kind of guff you normally blew, and I managed to defeat it. You, and the mods of the big sites will always have your ban buttons - but you will NEVER be able to justify your actions to me. That's how I know that I'm in the right, at least in situations like this - solidly backed justification is almost always absent.
:::: Personal attacks + deleting comments in response to you = banno --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:::: P.S. Sign your posts. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

::::: I have never intentionally deleted comments in response to me. I just moved one recently as it was in the middle of a paragraph of text. Not to mention that happened after you banned my original IP. Personal attacks alone are not grounds enough for a ban, especially when you're doing an awful, awful lot to be mercilessly torn into.
Need I point out that once again, you are unable to defend yourself properly? When does the "You're insane?" come? Ganging up of all your little friends since a majority always means you're right?
Do you even realise what a fascist shithead you sound like? Just because you're an admin of a place doesn't give you a free pass to be a dick with it. There's a difference between what you can do and what you should do that you don't seem to have learned yet.

[[User:67.159.44.88]]

: YOU BAN PEOPLE BECAUSE ****YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE

TRUTH****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111twelve FUCKING FASCIST PIGCOP NAZI WIKIPEDO '''ASSHOLE''' [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 00:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:: My gosh, now that I have seen someone mock the notion, it MUST be untrue. Please, where can I learn these 1337 debating skills?

:::Dude, I've been banned from twice as many forums as you, guaranfuckingteed, but they still let me post here because I'm not as goddamn retarded as you are. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:::: And can you demonstrate exactly how I'm more retarded than you? Or are you just, Walky style, dropping weighted terms to discredit someone's point of view without even trying?

:::::1. Hoop doesn't delete other people's comments on talk pages. 2. He actually signs his posts, which you've been asked to do many times, but haven't caught on. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::: I didn't delete anything. If I did, it was an accident because someone posted right in the middle of text it wasn't meant to be in the middle of. Not signing my posts doesn't make me retarded since it's blatant when I'm saying something. --[[User:67.159.44.88]]

Actually - come to think of it, you make fun of the idea that anyone running a site can be Nazi, yet you still mention you got banned from many forums. Does that perhaps mean that you genuinely got banned for being an asshole and not opposing the staff/local clique like I did?

:''any rational moderator would warn several times before a ban''
:Not true, some things are auto-ban. I don't think you ''did'' any of them, but I'm just saying.
:Dude- you got an expedited ban because you showed no signs of contrition, argued every point, used personal insults, refused to sign your posts even when '''repeatedly asked to''' (I had to go back into history and dig out which incoherent chunks of text where yours, because the posts weren't hierarchied properly so the debate was really hard to follow. This is why signin posts is important dumbfuck.)
:And ultimately you got banned because you were making a major nuisance of yourself in ''without'' any correlating '''contribution''' to justify keeping you around. You're a negative. You edited 3 articles- Fandom, Shortpacking and Ruined Forever- and ''all' of those edits got reverted because they either flames or crappy jokes that make the articles ''worse''. Even if I were to (generously) believe you didn't intend to start a fight, you picked the 3 flamebaitiest articles you could find and masturbated across them. ''Allah forfend'' you should write an ''episode summary'' or something.
:Unrelated- Walky can Talk:Fandom be semi-protected instead of full? Loserbot isn't registered. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]01:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

== Tip ==

If persistent trolls (especially those with offensive usernames) repeatedly re-create their user talk pages, the best method to deal with it would be to include the page on [[Project:Title blacklist]] and delete the vandalism user talk page. This would be better than protecting the actual page since the the vandalism page would technically not exist, won't come up in searches, and won't be indexed on search engines. In addition, the removal of such pages might discourage the trolls since they may see those pages as their accomplishments, which would encourage them to continue their disruption. [[User:GHe|GHe]] ([[User talk:GHe|Talk]]) 00:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

== Joepedia permission ==

You'll be happy to know that I have posted on the community talk forum as you suggested. I'll wait for the consensus. Thanks for letting me know before I stepped on EVERYBODY's toes. --[[User:Destron Commander|Destron Commander]] 06:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

== Talk:Prowl 2 ==

Could you merge [[Talk:Prowl 2]] with [[Talk: Prowl (RID)]]? Nobody is going to be able to find it since [[Prowl 2]] is a redirect. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 19:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

== Sorry ==

Sorry Willis, but your talk page has gotten too damned big. I've put all non-active topics into 2006 and 2007 archives except for the topics by Rosalie and Hilarious Stalker Guy. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: Thanks, sir. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

== Destronium ==

Sorry 'bout that, Walky. Inadequate (i.e., zero) warning of edit conflicts happened again. Well, at least you got a better caption the second time around.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== you deleted the wrong page ==

You deleted [[Image talk:Bstreak.gif]] instead of [[:Image:Bstreak.gif]]. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

== Go here. ==

[[Talk:Along Came a Spider]]

--[[User:Fannus Maximus|Fannus Maximus]] 17:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

==I think it's time for a pruning==
the To Be Deleted category is has quite a few empty categories, and a ton of troll user paged and images that aren't used anywhere, or just on banned user's pages. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

== Troll user and user talk pages ==

Could you delete the various troll-owned user and user talk pages? It generally isn't a good idea to keep those around. (This includes the fully protected ones. You can add them to [[Transformers Wiki:Title blacklist]] if needed) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:I oppose this measure as part of my general policy of opposing things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::[[Admiral Kreemzeeks Personal Battleship|Counterpoint.]]--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

== Dunno.... ==

Is it me, or does [[User:MARV 2000|MARV 2000]] act about like Assaulthead did ''before'' he decided to clumsily mash together military weapons, South Park references, and parts of the female anatomy he has never seen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
==Waaaiiit...==
When you deleted my Cheetor grin thing on the discussion page, the edit summary was ''"No."'' Does that mean "No, Supreme Cheetor's not the one with the stupid grin," or "No, you can't ask this question here?"
:Or does it mean both? [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 18:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
::Never mind. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 19:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

==Lame==
Lame. --[[User:Might Gaine|Might Gaine]] 02:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

:Dude, I know. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 19:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

== sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ==

i didnt vandalize ur page!!! it was my bro he hacked in2 my account i will change my password now!!! [[User:American Girl|American Girl]] 13:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

== Wheeljack's ears ==

How about an animated gif of Wheeljack's Ear-Thingies glowing for his page? I don't have one, but I think it'd be a good idea. [[Talk:Wheeljack (G1)]]

[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MISTER Q (Mr. means I'm a GUY)]] 16:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think that's necessary. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
::Well, you're the admin.

[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MISTER Q (Mr. means I'm a GUY)]] 17:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

== You should see this... ==

[[Image:Tf name generator.jpg|thumb|300px|This is on the TF Name Generator page.]]
[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MR. Q (I'm a GUY)]] 13:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
:He's seen it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

:Okay. Just making sure he knew about it. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|MR. Q (I'm a GUY)]] 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

:This looks shopped. I can tell from the pixels, and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 16:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::Of course it's photoshopped. Hasbro's Transformer-name generator is not going to call a kid "Bitchpants." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

== How could you!?! ==

Why would you get rid of the trivia i added, their is nothing wrong and it isn't vandilising so would you mind telling me why it should be deleted and not kept? [[Talk:Behellmorph]]
: I did tell you why. Read the edit comment I made when I reverted it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

:Okay fine, i wasn't paying attention to the replie but have you got a grudge against me or somethin? when i added a picture featuring the Barricade cars you got rid of it. I exept the deletion of the text since i missed what Didgit did but why the picture, could you at least allow me to keep the Riddler triva as least. [[Talk:Behellmorph]]
::I got rid of the Barricade shot because, like 30 million other things we had to delete when the first movie was being made, we don't deal in snuck photos from the set or of props or whatever. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

==Fusion Cannon==
Walky,don´t remove my edits at the fusion cannon page saying there has not been any official release please,it says fusion cannon on the back of the box. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 00:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
:That would be the back of the box of a toy that has not yet actually been released to retail, would it not?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

:Is said box in an photograph released by Hasbro or the Fan Club, or of the Hasbro booth at a convention, or from a toy released in actual stores? If not, the box was stolen from Hasbro. We do not post things we only know of because of stolen toys. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It did leak out into several stores throughout singapore and the usa though,so i´m pretty sure what i read,and i´m pretty sure i didn´t get it from a thief. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 00:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
:It's not officially released, therefore it's offlimits. Them's the breaks. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fine,whatever. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 09:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

==Spotlights==
Hi -- I left a message on [[Talk:Main Page]] about the Wikia spotlights. Let me know if you have any more problems with stuff like that... I'd be happy to talk with you guys about promoting the site in a way that makes you happy, and not angry. -- [[User:Toughpigs|Danny]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Toughpigs|talk]]) 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

== Deletion Log ==

"ItsWalky (Talk | contribs) (deleted "God":" 
"There is more than one god on this wiki.)"
I just wanted to say I found these text strings from today's Deletion Log highly amusing, especially when separated like that. I'm sure there's a lesson in here somewhere.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 02:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

== now that you banned him.. ==

Inferno'sQueen is a Kremzeek sockpuppet. [[User:ShinkisRule|ShinkisRule]] 18:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: And you're another one, huh? Why else would you know, care, or mention this? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::Personally, it looks like Kremmy came up with a long string of ridiculous socks to distract away from his "real" account (Inferno's Queen). IQ was where he was actually trying to be a productive member and by comparison to the troll socks would seem sensible. Of course, IQ was still too annoying by half. I'd wager ShinkisRule is his sister again.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Adding photos? ==

Hi Walky,

I'm curious what the rules on Teletraan I are for adding photos. I do some macro photography and thought I could help add some original photos for various articles. Are there any rights issues I should know about? I would like to get a credit for the photo but otherwise I have no other issue (something like this - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/). I don't even mind hosting if it is necessary.

Furthermore, are there rules to the type of photo format used? (White background/etc?)

[[User:66.130.54.20|66.130.54.20]] 18:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)The Drifter
:We prefer white backgrounds, yes, and you're welcome to credit yourself when you upload your own images. (They may be automatically released to public domain upon doing so, I am not sure of the specifics. I know our written text is.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::I know we do have [[Template:Copyleft]] for use in tagging images for copyleft licensing.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Moving mirrorverse Prime ==

The Prime in ''Games of Deception'' is G1 prime, right? Going on standard disambuig, mirrorverse Prime should be at [[Optimus Prime (Timelines)]] as he is the only Optimus Prime introduced in the Timelines line. Also, is there another Ruckus in Timelines? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 05:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:I still think we should be using (Shattered Glass) for all the Shattered Glass guys, and not (Timelines). I think that makes the articles more easily recognizable for what they are when seen by people browsing through catgeories. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

==Monaco skin==

Hi Walky -- I posted on the [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Monaco skin|Community portal]] last week about moving this wiki over to the new Monaco skin. It's had some discussion, but nothing so far from the admins. What do you think? -- [[User:Toughpigs|Danny]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Toughpigs|talk]]) 19:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

== Yeah, I'm spamming ==

Canvassing a few talkpages here so we can get folks to weigh in and finalize the potential Wiki image policy. Your input would be appreciated at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Images]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Main page talk:Premiums ==

I'm a winner but the post is gone?!? *confusion* [[User:BenHur|BenHur]] 16:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
:You're not supposed to post toy sightings on the main page's discussion page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry, didn't know! [[User:BenHur|BenHur]] 16:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Close to the top of [[Talk:Main Page]], it says, "Please use this talk page for discussion about the Main Page." Please read pages before you edit them. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Sorry again.

== Well, I suppose he's going to have to hate you even longer. ==

[[User:Bonescrusher|Bonescrusher]] states on his userpage that he's [[User:FIELDMAN 298|FIELDMAN 298]] (and felt the need to update his old userpage). He is also saying he is the (as of yet unblocked) user [[User:St.Hound|St.Hound]]. This is the dink that keeps vandalizing your creator/artist page on the wiki, but says he'll stop now. But he still feels the need to say he hates you and everyone you've ever loved.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

== Garbage In, Garbage Out ==

Seriously, it looks to me as if there's nothing left of Wreck-Gar but his upper chest and shoulders, and even that is half-buried in the river-bottom mud. I take it you disagree.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 04:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:Definitely looks like he's buried, because he actually pulls his right shoulder out of the ocean floor during the sequence. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::If he was missing most of himself, they'd, y'know, show some wiring down there. Also, not show him buried! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Looking at it again, I guess I can see how the rest of his body could be there, but at the angle he was lying and the way his arm stubs were shown, I just got the impression that what we saw of him was practically all there was left. If there was more of his body intact, I'd have expected it to be more visible. Then again, I'm nitpicking the realism of a half-buried giant, transforming, cartoon robot.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::::On this, I agree with Willis - he's mostly intact, just more than half-buried in the silt - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

==Rhinox555 gettin' cranky==
If you have a moment to check out [[Talk:Waspinator (BW)|Talk:Waspinator]], it's possible that [[User:Rhinox555]] has reached the point where he needs a time-out. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

== Nobody can wait for a year ==
Please give me another chance, I felt like leaving the funny business to you guys. This is the logged out Black Rhino Ranger speaking. [[Special:Contributions/82.17.140.55|82.17.140.55]] 06:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

== Red ==

I must've not reverted right. It's a photo caption, since Red isn't in the picture I don't see the point of mentioning him in the caption. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 22:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
: I do. I see a point. Hell, I wrote the damn thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

==huh==

You know, I've been here for a whiel, and I've been reading shortpacked for a while...and I only realised who you were half an hour ago. Mad, huh? Anyway, since I like dolling out praise for no real reason, I'm a fan f your comics, and hope you keep up the excellent work. And yes, Ani Grimlock's tail is too short [[User:GWolfv2]]

==Harley Has Returned==

Well, it was painful and boring waiting a month. But I've re-registered my account - though I'm still ticked off about being locked out for trying to get rid of a really stupid argument on my Talk page. I guess I should have asked a mod or something for advice though... And NOW I've got to put my User-page back up to be smug and self-satisfied about how amazing I am ALL OVER AGAIN. *sigh* Oh well...

And just for the record, I may not be able to add many new pages (my range is still limited) but I've been buying lots of toys lately, so I ought to be able to help with expanding on those sections, if not entire articles. Yours, [[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 10:29, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

== Photos ==

Whoops! A few friends of mine told me they were official. I had no idea they were leaked. Thanks for the heads up!I'll be more careful.[[User:Homey|Homey]] 10:59, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Hey, ItsWalky! I found out the photos weren't leaked;they were from the official transformers video game site(I went there, logged in and saw them) so it's not against policy. But thank you anyway![[User:Homey|Homey]] 12:02, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
: If that's the case, then okey-doke. But note that you shouldn't overwrite Megatron's image with the new render, as you did before. The filename says "Defiance" in it, which is where the image you're overwriting is from, and that makes the filename wrong. Plus, that's his article's main image, and we use the character's first body up there. We don't update it with new bodies as they come out. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

== Goddammit ==

Turn your anonymous LJ commentary back on. Those Moylan's fans have probably lost interest/are too busy slagging off the Animated episodes and the ROTF CG renders. Goddammit. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:02, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

== Vandalism ==

This is just going to a general comment section to inform you of vandalism. Remove all messages after this per deny recognition. Anyway, guess who reared his ugly head...I'd call him a repressed homosexual if I thought he was old enough to understand half of what he wrote. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:03, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/76.247.222.101
:http://www.ip-adress.com/whois/76.247.222.101
:There are phone numbers there. Any of em useable to report him and hopefully get his internet yanked or access to this site blocked or something? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:07, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
::Does AT&T have an abuse phone number/email address? I can't find one on their site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:42, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I've found a form [http://helpme.att.net/servabuse.php here] and sent in an abuse report. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:43, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Can someone who has access save the server access logs for the incident? AT&T will almost certainly want them. (Do we even have access to them here?) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:55, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::OK, AT&T have requested the server logs of the incident. I think we have a real chance of something getting done about this problem here! Does anyone have access to the server logs, or do we need to ask Bookworm for them? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:53, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As a sysop, you have access to that IP's [[Special:DeletedContributions/76.247.222.101|deleted user contributions]], which might be what they're looking for. That's the vandalism and harassment, after all.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:23, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'll see if they'll accept those. I've sent an email to Scout asking about getting a copy of the apache access logs as well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I haven't had a reply from Scout yet, so at this stage I've done all I can. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:53, 7 May 2009 (EDT)

::Heh. It might be quicker for me to spend 20 minuted to drive to AT&T HQ and complain in person. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:57, 5 May 2009 (EDT)

Just to give the admins a little heads up if you haven't already noticed... Fuck Detour (or one of the new user names he's come up with) is back.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 16:41, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
:I killed 'im and mass-deleted his contributions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:46, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
::Have we yet managed to link those phone numbers to a person? Sending death threats across the Internet is a felony, after all....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:48, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
:::They've asked for server access logs... From what I heard mainly Bookworm and Scout have access to them and we haven't heard from them. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:12, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I never heard back from Scout the last time. AT&T won't do anything without server logs as proof the accesses took place. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:59, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

== LOTS OF SHOUTING ==

Diff between the first time MM edited 13OT and your last edit. Note the redundancy, which you added twice: http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301258&oldid=301026

I also note that all your summaries on Recent Changes were SHOUTING, including you blocking MM for "deleting content". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
: Of course I was shouting. Some crazy dude tries to delete Logos Prime from this wiki every other Sunday. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:18, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

== Kup ==

Primus, I'm sorry about that. Didn't mean for that to happen, must have been a glitch. Thanks for catching it. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 22:15, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

== Bumper as a Brazilian character. ==

Hope i'm posting this on the right place...

I did put a cap under Animated Bumper image that said "In Brazil, people know who i am."

I did not mean to say that he's brazilian, but that his toy was among the first wave of the original G1 Transformers released here during the 80's and because of that, lots of fans in Brazil remember him almost as much as Cliffjumper or Bumblebee.

Just wanted to make this clear. I used the caption under the image again, but if you think it shouldn't be used anyway, be my guest and delete it. --[[User:Akumateukuma|Akumateukuma]] 23:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

== Megatron and the nuts ==

It's not MTMTE1 but osme other epesode, but I'm not motivated enough to go and watch the entire show again just to find it and this is the only screen shot I could find:
[[Image:Prime Nutshot.jpg]]
It looks pretty authentic to me. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:13, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for a sight gag, but as far as serious info goes, that's a shot to the breadbasket, not the nutsack.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 12:36, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, we can SEE Megatron's "balls" in that shot. That black ridge between the legs? And they're not getting kicked. His stomach is. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::HOW DO YOU KNOW, WALKY? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT MEGATRON DOESN'T KEEP HIS NARDS IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS ABDOMEN?! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 14:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Me am GNS and me has dis ta sez!
::::Megatron be happy dat Optimus no has jet boots or hiz plastic pubes be on fire!!!
::::Me worships your Lordship and desires to ask ?, why Hot Shot no get fingers win Powerlinx wit others? IT nO fAiR1!1!1!!! [[User:GuyNamedSean|GuyNamedSean]] 07:25, 9 July 2009 (EDT)

== Logo ==

Hey Walky, do you have a largish (or just clear enough for legibility at A4 size) version of our logo that I can print out? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:19, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Wikilogofakebig.jpg|300px]]
: Not really, but here it is blown up a little more! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:23, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Thanks :D --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:29, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

[[:Image:Teletraan corner.psd|This]] is as close to print quality as I have the other design elements. Lemme know when you've downloaded it, so I can nuke it off our filespace.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:As I mentioned in the talkpage, do you have one with our URL on it instead of "Teletraan-1"? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:31, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh, right, right. That was the old version Gimme a sec and I'll fix it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:32, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Done.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:38, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks, done. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:00, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

==ROTF little one - Hightower or Scrapper==

I was going by the alt modes we see on deck. Scrapper's a front loader type thing, whereas Hightower is a crane, which looks similar to the one we see in the film...although that little one image does have that double pronged end on his hand. I also though Scrapper was the one chasing Sam and Mikeala, used a wrecking ball. Anyway, if it is decided it's Scrapper, you'll need to transfer/rewrite the bit for Hightower's page I did. [[User:Eire|Eire]] 22.55 27th June 2009
:It isn't Hightower. Hightower is a truss crane and is quite large. The unnamed dead guy was a smaller excavator-type vehicle. In fact, he's quite similar to the incorrect vehicle mode Demolishor was given in the ROTF adaptation comic. Scrapper was the guy with the mace-fist that chased after Sam & Mikeala. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:31, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

== GIVE ME YOUR FACE ==

Hey David, since you enjoy this even more than I do, can you think of any way of working [http://sale.images.woot.com/Transformers_4_Foot_Wall_Graphixl8iDetail.jpg this Prime image] into the wiki? Normally we'd say something about a purse, but... --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:33, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

== List of characters who have defeated Ravage ==

Shouldn't [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] be among them? ;) [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 03:30, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
: Different Ravage! But hm. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

I think this list would be even cooler than it already is with storylinks included. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 15:07, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

== SG Thunderwing ==

OK, I was looking through the revision history on the "Shattered Glass (franchise)" page, and I found a red-link to an article on Shattered Glass Thunderwing. Upon closer inspection, I found that not only was the article linked to in "Thunderwing (disambiguation)", you were the one who added him to the "Shattered Glass (franchise) page in the first place. Can you please tell me where it came from? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:41, 23 July 2009 (EDT)
: An illustration from "Blitzwing Bop" that was shown at BotCon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:59, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

Let me guess. Coloured like Crossblades? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:18, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
: Universe Silverbolt with a new Thunderwing head, colored like Thunderwing. --[[Special:Contributions/72.255.107.28|72.255.107.28]] 16:07, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

Don't you just hate it when someone suddenly cracks the mirror again? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:40, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

== New article I'm working on ==

Hi I'm currently working on two articles, well one is more finished then that other but still. Now I'm talking about [[User:Dead_Metal/DMsscrapheap#Hasbro_UK_exclusive_limited_Edition_Handmade_Samples|this one]] I don't feel it'S finished enough or up to standards to be posted yet. What do you think, any things I should improve? [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 14:22, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

== AllSpark Almanac shout-out ==
I want to say, I truly appreciate the shout-out on your blog. I have a request - if you're going to link to the book on amazon, would you mind using this link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1600104878?ie=UTF8&tag=thar-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1600104878
Doing so will give me credit on my amazon account, and let's me better track sales. If you'd rather not, no big deal.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:02, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
:Thank you. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 09:52, 20 August 2009 (EDT)

== New Discovery ==

OK, I've been looking around the "TFWiki Problems" thread on the Allspark, and I've discovered [[Talk:Tactician|this]]. Eight words: Previously. Discovered. And. Forgotten. Page. Made. By. Assaulthead. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:17, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

== image ==

I just saw you deleted an Elita-1 image, out of curiosity was that image the concept one?
: Of course. We delete that image at least once a month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:13, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

==Replacing other folks' uploaded images==
I've noticed that you've replaced images a good few times over the years. Sometimes it's for better quality, but others I can't see why. My Bludgeon one? Aspect ratio? Your filename is nigh identical. Others, but can't recall off hand. [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:39, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
: Well, your Bludgeon image was '''1700 pixels across'''. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:02, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
::All the better to see you with, my dear! {{redact|Fecking Office Picture Manager fecks up the compression stuff!}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:36, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, images can't be that big. They really, really can't. If you are incapable of uploading smaller images, I would suggest not uploading them. We do so so much money on bandwidth, dude, and that's money we gotta pay. Furthermore, large files can muck up our auto-backup systems. It's just not a good idea. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
::::And it makes the site Dial-up friendlier!--[[User:Hida Atarasi|Hida Atarasi]] 13:51, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Not strictly, no. The images you see inlined on the pages aren't thumbnails, but images scaled at that size. Separate files from the ones we upload. You could click through that scaled-down image to get to the bigger one, but if you're on dialup and you do that, it's your own fault. :) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:05, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

:::"Fecking Office Picture Manager fecks up the compression stuff!": [http://irfanview.com Irfanview]. Yes I'm pimping this program yet again, but it's free and is totally wonderful at both resizing and compressing stuff small while keeping image quality looking good. It has some nice basic sharpen/color adjustment options ''and'' a built-in program for capturing from a scanner, too. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:10, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

== Ravage ==

Might want to [[:Image:SpotlightSoundwave Bludgeon defeatsLaserbeakRavage.jpg|add this to your list]]. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

== I thought you should know ==

that I got into trouble for defending you and Shortpacked on TFW2005. I might try to push my luck, since it's Fosterlager who gave me the infraction warning (the second he's given me with regards to defending you and the TFWiki in general). Also - why did you disable anon commenting again? :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:07, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
: I'm not surprised that I see no evidence of you in that thread! Those guys are super delete-happy. Anonymous posting is back on as of now. I turned it off because there were a few shitheads the other day. Anonymous-disabling is kind of like shithead protection. Keeps the place from turning into 4chan. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:40, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh, sorry to hear that. I like to occasionally comment on your blog, but I don't wanna get an LJ account (don't have anything to talk about in my life). Thanks for turning anon commenting back on. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:48, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Jolt ==

The Blu-Ray manages to show a pretty clear image of Jolt's robot mode just before he attaches his electro-whips. Should we use it as his main pic? [http://images.dwteam.org/tf/snapshot20091023081257.jpg Yeah, he's standing in front of Jetfire, but one can make him out pretty darn easily.] And 1080p = clear big ass pic. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:55, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
: On one hand, yeah, that's a nice clear picture of him, and probably the only one we get in the movie of his whole body unblurred. On the other, the current main image is, uh, more accurate? Sort of? I mean, it's not just hilarious, but it's generally true. Jolt is always just over somebody's shoulder. I enjoy that all of Jolt's images are out of focus or from under somebody's shoulder. I am not saying no. I'm saying why I like the current setup, but not that it can't change. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:41, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Funny part of that "best image we have of him" is if I didn't know what I was looking for I doubt I'd even notice his tangle of metal was meant to be something seperate from Jetfire's. I'm not really a hater of the movie look, but in situations like this it's like a ink-blot test trying to seperate what's him from what's jetfire. Atleast in the blury pics I can easily see what it is I'm not seeing clearly.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:46, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

User talk:ItsWalky

2009-10-25T00:46:59Z

76.28.72.27: /* Jolt */

{{preview bastard}}

--I'm deeply sorry

[[User talk:ItsWalky/2006|2006 Archives]]

[[User talk:ItsWalky/2007|2007 Archives]]

==Things to say to you==
[[Image:Ttoc.GIF|right|thumb|We approve this message.]]

Just some thing I've been wanting to say to David...

First off, you're a monumental asshole. You have an ego the size of a small planet and it's irritating watching you act like an important SOB when you're basically just a nobody.

Second, your webcomics aren't funny. They're boring tripe that makes Penny Arcade look good(and believe me, Penny Arcade is garbage). Cyanide and Happiness is a funny webcomic, yours is not. Your "jokes" are painful, about like watching Michael Richards yell the n-word as a routine. You don't draw a comic, you draw an opinionated blog. I'm not sure which name suits your crap better, "ShitPacked" or "ShortDicked".

Your liberalism and your love of Indiana get on my nerves. You jab at Mallard Filmore? Yeah, one shitty comic making fun of another shitty comic. Or are you just pissed that his gets in newspapers while you're JUST a webcomic? As to Indiana, I live here, and if it were up to me, the state would be walled off and none of the freaks living there allowed to interact with the rest of the planet. The state is about 3 decades behind the times. But something tells me even you know this otherwise you'd still live here. I sure as hell do not live here by choice and as soon as I can, I'm moving far away from this joke of a state.

And your brand loyalty is typical fandom crap. You have Aaron Archer's rod so far down your throat it's unreal. And Aryan fucktard Michael Bay's rod has apparently joined it. I'd say soemthing abotu Don Murphy but he was born without one. Actually, I can say something- he's Kevin "unfunny asshole" Smith with more body fat. Hasbro didn't give the film to a competent director, just a cheap one. And neither Speilberg or ILM have done anything useful in years. Give WETA, or even Tom Savini a chance and we wouldn't be getting Bionicle bots. You're afraid to not like a Hasbro product. No wonder they don't have to go out of the way to please the "fans"- you'll accept it no matter what. But hey, you personally have been sucking off incompetent British bonehead Simon Furman and his shitty stories for years. There are no gods in Transformers. Unicron was built by a monkey, little man. Furman is dog shit.

And go figure this TF wiki is a joke full of misinformation, insults or outright lies- you're a mod here. You're never right. You're more of an incorrect pompous jerkoff than Defunct is. Right, ban me from editing, as if it would somehow matter, any info you don't agree with is pulled. You only have friends because people feel sorry for you. Me, I have no need. People are a commodity to be used and their wants only get in the way of what I'm out for. Use them and drop them.

Who am I? Go look who added a note about you on Encyclopedia Dramatica's Allspark page if you're not too lazy. As well as past AS, Kalidor, FIRRIB and Hooks entries(the hooks entry especially true). Oh, and just info on white people in general and that idiotic Nintendo Wii. I'm not making it that easy for you.
: Is it my birthday? This stuff ''feeds'' me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
: Duuuuude. Walky may be a dick, but I still ''like'' him for some inexplicable reason. You, on the other hand, are just one sore drama queen.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 17:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: This is some of the most funny stuff I've seen in a while. Comedy PLATINUM. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: Bwa ha ha ha ha. Priceless. I think someone needs to get off the internets for a few minutes. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 02:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: Wait, you mean I didn't get drunk and write this? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 05:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

: I wish lame puns happened to me. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 20:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do I get the feeling that guy has been permanently banned?[[User:Florky Man|Mr. Florky]] 15:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, an Encyclopedia Dramatica troll. No need to be so harsh on Walky. I, too, like the Baybots, and, I happen to like Bionicle. Also, his Webcomic is one of my favorites. So, if you have nothing nice to say, never ever EVER come back here.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 16:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

==BANNED==

What the hell did I do to warrant a ban, exactly? As far as I'm aware, I don't even think I broke any rules, and if I did, an official warning would be appropriate. I received no such warning. I was not here for trolling and you know that - you use that bullshit excuse to get people to ignore arguments you can't handle. But you, personally, who made this decision, know I'm not a troll.

This is fucking low. I had little enough respect for you down to your ranting against the fanbase, Willis, but this is a whole new level of buggery. If you're going to use your comic to rant against and discredit people you don't like, the least you can do is suck it up when people rant at you back, and not act like a control-freak child.

I really don't think you're aware of your own actions anymore.
*Do the words [[Wikipedia:WP:NPA|no personal attacks]] mean anything to you? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:: Do the words "warning before ban" mean anything to you? Rulemongering doesn't justify a decision anyway, since Walky is one of the people making the rules. There were plenty of personal attacks leveled at me, but I did not report them officially.

::I really find it hard to believe that you think it's completely on a rational level of discourse to claim that the comic strip I draw is about child pornography. If I'm not mistaken about your identity, you've been banned from almost every single Transformers web board you've had an acquaintance with, and I'm only doing this place a favor by getting rid of you. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

::: That's not an excuse. I will openly admit I HAVE been banned from several forums, but only because I repeatedly opposed the staff on each and every one of them; and with good cause, they all have roughly the same problem. People bully others either into liking the movie or to agree with the kind of views you promote - and since nobody can directly attack or discredit anyone, these people(and you are) are left to their methods.
::: For your current decision to be validated, the admins of those boards, boards which are influenced in turn by your anti-fan attitude, would have to be near 100% correct in their decisions, and those decisions would have to occur within a context that would map exactly onto here. Any rational moderator does not base their decisions so much off performance on other boards, especially when it's not even a messageboard they're operating. Two different media. I have openly said I despise all active Transformers boards for their level of authoritarianism, yet level of tolerance towards the pushing of certain viewpoints.

::: Not to mention that you're still operating under the fallacy of Appeal to Majority - that alone means I shouldn't really even have to counter you.

::: And don't even use the "CHILD PORNOGRAPHY" thing as an excuse. Again, any rational moderator would warn several times before a ban, I personally reversed that edit even though it was obviously intended to be a joke as anyone reading this knows what pile'o'bile already is. You have no justification for what you did, but your ego is too big to realise you can actually do wrong with your power. You'll never admit it, but I wouldn't be surprised if some part of you is pissed that I defeated some of your ramblings, whether they were directly written by you or encouraged by you, it's still the kind of guff you normally blew, and I managed to defeat it. You, and the mods of the big sites will always have your ban buttons - but you will NEVER be able to justify your actions to me. That's how I know that I'm in the right, at least in situations like this - solidly backed justification is almost always absent.
:::: Personal attacks + deleting comments in response to you = banno --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:::: P.S. Sign your posts. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

::::: I have never intentionally deleted comments in response to me. I just moved one recently as it was in the middle of a paragraph of text. Not to mention that happened after you banned my original IP. Personal attacks alone are not grounds enough for a ban, especially when you're doing an awful, awful lot to be mercilessly torn into.
Need I point out that once again, you are unable to defend yourself properly? When does the "You're insane?" come? Ganging up of all your little friends since a majority always means you're right?
Do you even realise what a fascist shithead you sound like? Just because you're an admin of a place doesn't give you a free pass to be a dick with it. There's a difference between what you can do and what you should do that you don't seem to have learned yet.

[[User:67.159.44.88]]

: YOU BAN PEOPLE BECAUSE ****YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE

TRUTH****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111twelve FUCKING FASCIST PIGCOP NAZI WIKIPEDO '''ASSHOLE''' [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 00:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:: My gosh, now that I have seen someone mock the notion, it MUST be untrue. Please, where can I learn these 1337 debating skills?

:::Dude, I've been banned from twice as many forums as you, guaranfuckingteed, but they still let me post here because I'm not as goddamn retarded as you are. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:::: And can you demonstrate exactly how I'm more retarded than you? Or are you just, Walky style, dropping weighted terms to discredit someone's point of view without even trying?

:::::1. Hoop doesn't delete other people's comments on talk pages. 2. He actually signs his posts, which you've been asked to do many times, but haven't caught on. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

:::::: I didn't delete anything. If I did, it was an accident because someone posted right in the middle of text it wasn't meant to be in the middle of. Not signing my posts doesn't make me retarded since it's blatant when I'm saying something. --[[User:67.159.44.88]]

Actually - come to think of it, you make fun of the idea that anyone running a site can be Nazi, yet you still mention you got banned from many forums. Does that perhaps mean that you genuinely got banned for being an asshole and not opposing the staff/local clique like I did?

:''any rational moderator would warn several times before a ban''
:Not true, some things are auto-ban. I don't think you ''did'' any of them, but I'm just saying.
:Dude- you got an expedited ban because you showed no signs of contrition, argued every point, used personal insults, refused to sign your posts even when '''repeatedly asked to''' (I had to go back into history and dig out which incoherent chunks of text where yours, because the posts weren't hierarchied properly so the debate was really hard to follow. This is why signin posts is important dumbfuck.)
:And ultimately you got banned because you were making a major nuisance of yourself in ''without'' any correlating '''contribution''' to justify keeping you around. You're a negative. You edited 3 articles- Fandom, Shortpacking and Ruined Forever- and ''all' of those edits got reverted because they either flames or crappy jokes that make the articles ''worse''. Even if I were to (generously) believe you didn't intend to start a fight, you picked the 3 flamebaitiest articles you could find and masturbated across them. ''Allah forfend'' you should write an ''episode summary'' or something.
:Unrelated- Walky can Talk:Fandom be semi-protected instead of full? Loserbot isn't registered. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]01:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

== Tip ==

If persistent trolls (especially those with offensive usernames) repeatedly re-create their user talk pages, the best method to deal with it would be to include the page on [[Project:Title blacklist]] and delete the vandalism user talk page. This would be better than protecting the actual page since the the vandalism page would technically not exist, won't come up in searches, and won't be indexed on search engines. In addition, the removal of such pages might discourage the trolls since they may see those pages as their accomplishments, which would encourage them to continue their disruption. [[User:GHe|GHe]] ([[User talk:GHe|Talk]]) 00:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

== Joepedia permission ==

You'll be happy to know that I have posted on the community talk forum as you suggested. I'll wait for the consensus. Thanks for letting me know before I stepped on EVERYBODY's toes. --[[User:Destron Commander|Destron Commander]] 06:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

== Talk:Prowl 2 ==

Could you merge [[Talk:Prowl 2]] with [[Talk: Prowl (RID)]]? Nobody is going to be able to find it since [[Prowl 2]] is a redirect. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 19:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

== Sorry ==

Sorry Willis, but your talk page has gotten too damned big. I've put all non-active topics into 2006 and 2007 archives except for the topics by Rosalie and Hilarious Stalker Guy. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
: Thanks, sir. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

== Destronium ==

Sorry 'bout that, Walky. Inadequate (i.e., zero) warning of edit conflicts happened again. Well, at least you got a better caption the second time around.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

== you deleted the wrong page ==

You deleted [[Image talk:Bstreak.gif]] instead of [[:Image:Bstreak.gif]]. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

== Go here. ==

[[Talk:Along Came a Spider]]

--[[User:Fannus Maximus|Fannus Maximus]] 17:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

==I think it's time for a pruning==
the To Be Deleted category is has quite a few empty categories, and a ton of troll user paged and images that aren't used anywhere, or just on banned user's pages. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

== Troll user and user talk pages ==

Could you delete the various troll-owned user and user talk pages? It generally isn't a good idea to keep those around. (This includes the fully protected ones. You can add them to [[Transformers Wiki:Title blacklist]] if needed) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:I oppose this measure as part of my general policy of opposing things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::[[Admiral Kreemzeeks Personal Battleship|Counterpoint.]]--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

== Dunno.... ==

Is it me, or does [[User:MARV 2000|MARV 2000]] act about like Assaulthead did ''before'' he decided to clumsily mash together military weapons, South Park references, and parts of the female anatomy he has never seen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
==Waaaiiit...==
When you deleted my Cheetor grin thing on the discussion page, the edit summary was ''"No."'' Does that mean "No, Supreme Cheetor's not the one with the stupid grin," or "No, you can't ask this question here?"
:Or does it mean both? [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 18:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
::Never mind. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 19:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

==Lame==
Lame. --[[User:Might Gaine|Might Gaine]] 02:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

:Dude, I know. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 19:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

== sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ==

i didnt vandalize ur page!!! it was my bro he hacked in2 my account i will change my password now!!! [[User:American Girl|American Girl]] 13:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

== Wheeljack's ears ==

How about an animated gif of Wheeljack's Ear-Thingies glowing for his page? I don't have one, but I think it'd be a good idea. [[Talk:Wheeljack (G1)]]

[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MISTER Q (Mr. means I'm a GUY)]] 16:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think that's necessary. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
::Well, you're the admin.

[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MISTER Q (Mr. means I'm a GUY)]] 17:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

== You should see this... ==

[[Image:Tf name generator.jpg|thumb|300px|This is on the TF Name Generator page.]]
[[User:Inferno'sQueen|MR. Q (I'm a GUY)]] 13:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
:He's seen it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

:Okay. Just making sure he knew about it. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|MR. Q (I'm a GUY)]] 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

:This looks shopped. I can tell from the pixels, and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 16:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::Of course it's photoshopped. Hasbro's Transformer-name generator is not going to call a kid "Bitchpants." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

== How could you!?! ==

Why would you get rid of the trivia i added, their is nothing wrong and it isn't vandilising so would you mind telling me why it should be deleted and not kept? [[Talk:Behellmorph]]
: I did tell you why. Read the edit comment I made when I reverted it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

:Okay fine, i wasn't paying attention to the replie but have you got a grudge against me or somethin? when i added a picture featuring the Barricade cars you got rid of it. I exept the deletion of the text since i missed what Didgit did but why the picture, could you at least allow me to keep the Riddler triva as least. [[Talk:Behellmorph]]
::I got rid of the Barricade shot because, like 30 million other things we had to delete when the first movie was being made, we don't deal in snuck photos from the set or of props or whatever. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

==Fusion Cannon==
Walky,don´t remove my edits at the fusion cannon page saying there has not been any official release please,it says fusion cannon on the back of the box. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 00:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
:That would be the back of the box of a toy that has not yet actually been released to retail, would it not?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

:Is said box in an photograph released by Hasbro or the Fan Club, or of the Hasbro booth at a convention, or from a toy released in actual stores? If not, the box was stolen from Hasbro. We do not post things we only know of because of stolen toys. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It did leak out into several stores throughout singapore and the usa though,so i´m pretty sure what i read,and i´m pretty sure i didn´t get it from a thief. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 00:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
:It's not officially released, therefore it's offlimits. Them's the breaks. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fine,whatever. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 09:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

==Spotlights==
Hi -- I left a message on [[Talk:Main Page]] about the Wikia spotlights. Let me know if you have any more problems with stuff like that... I'd be happy to talk with you guys about promoting the site in a way that makes you happy, and not angry. -- [[User:Toughpigs|Danny]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Toughpigs|talk]]) 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

== Deletion Log ==

"ItsWalky (Talk | contribs) (deleted "God":" 
"There is more than one god on this wiki.)"
I just wanted to say I found these text strings from today's Deletion Log highly amusing, especially when separated like that. I'm sure there's a lesson in here somewhere.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 02:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

== now that you banned him.. ==

Inferno'sQueen is a Kremzeek sockpuppet. [[User:ShinkisRule|ShinkisRule]] 18:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: And you're another one, huh? Why else would you know, care, or mention this? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::Personally, it looks like Kremmy came up with a long string of ridiculous socks to distract away from his "real" account (Inferno's Queen). IQ was where he was actually trying to be a productive member and by comparison to the troll socks would seem sensible. Of course, IQ was still too annoying by half. I'd wager ShinkisRule is his sister again.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Adding photos? ==

Hi Walky,

I'm curious what the rules on Teletraan I are for adding photos. I do some macro photography and thought I could help add some original photos for various articles. Are there any rights issues I should know about? I would like to get a credit for the photo but otherwise I have no other issue (something like this - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/). I don't even mind hosting if it is necessary.

Furthermore, are there rules to the type of photo format used? (White background/etc?)

[[User:66.130.54.20|66.130.54.20]] 18:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)The Drifter
:We prefer white backgrounds, yes, and you're welcome to credit yourself when you upload your own images. (They may be automatically released to public domain upon doing so, I am not sure of the specifics. I know our written text is.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::I know we do have [[Template:Copyleft]] for use in tagging images for copyleft licensing.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

== Moving mirrorverse Prime ==

The Prime in ''Games of Deception'' is G1 prime, right? Going on standard disambuig, mirrorverse Prime should be at [[Optimus Prime (Timelines)]] as he is the only Optimus Prime introduced in the Timelines line. Also, is there another Ruckus in Timelines? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 05:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
:I still think we should be using (Shattered Glass) for all the Shattered Glass guys, and not (Timelines). I think that makes the articles more easily recognizable for what they are when seen by people browsing through catgeories. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

==Monaco skin==

Hi Walky -- I posted on the [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Monaco skin|Community portal]] last week about moving this wiki over to the new Monaco skin. It's had some discussion, but nothing so far from the admins. What do you think? -- [[User:Toughpigs|Danny]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Toughpigs|talk]]) 19:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

== Yeah, I'm spamming ==

Canvassing a few talkpages here so we can get folks to weigh in and finalize the potential Wiki image policy. Your input would be appreciated at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Images]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Main page talk:Premiums ==

I'm a winner but the post is gone?!? *confusion* [[User:BenHur|BenHur]] 16:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
:You're not supposed to post toy sightings on the main page's discussion page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry, didn't know! [[User:BenHur|BenHur]] 16:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Close to the top of [[Talk:Main Page]], it says, "Please use this talk page for discussion about the Main Page." Please read pages before you edit them. [[User:JW|JW]] 16:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Sorry again.

== Well, I suppose he's going to have to hate you even longer. ==

[[User:Bonescrusher|Bonescrusher]] states on his userpage that he's [[User:FIELDMAN 298|FIELDMAN 298]] (and felt the need to update his old userpage). He is also saying he is the (as of yet unblocked) user [[User:St.Hound|St.Hound]]. This is the dink that keeps vandalizing your creator/artist page on the wiki, but says he'll stop now. But he still feels the need to say he hates you and everyone you've ever loved.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

== Garbage In, Garbage Out ==

Seriously, it looks to me as if there's nothing left of Wreck-Gar but his upper chest and shoulders, and even that is half-buried in the river-bottom mud. I take it you disagree.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 04:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:Definitely looks like he's buried, because he actually pulls his right shoulder out of the ocean floor during the sequence. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::If he was missing most of himself, they'd, y'know, show some wiring down there. Also, not show him buried! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Looking at it again, I guess I can see how the rest of his body could be there, but at the angle he was lying and the way his arm stubs were shown, I just got the impression that what we saw of him was practically all there was left. If there was more of his body intact, I'd have expected it to be more visible. Then again, I'm nitpicking the realism of a half-buried giant, transforming, cartoon robot.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::::On this, I agree with Willis - he's mostly intact, just more than half-buried in the silt - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

==Rhinox555 gettin' cranky==
If you have a moment to check out [[Talk:Waspinator (BW)|Talk:Waspinator]], it's possible that [[User:Rhinox555]] has reached the point where he needs a time-out. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

== Nobody can wait for a year ==
Please give me another chance, I felt like leaving the funny business to you guys. This is the logged out Black Rhino Ranger speaking. [[Special:Contributions/82.17.140.55|82.17.140.55]] 06:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

== Red ==

I must've not reverted right. It's a photo caption, since Red isn't in the picture I don't see the point of mentioning him in the caption. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 22:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
: I do. I see a point. Hell, I wrote the damn thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

==huh==

You know, I've been here for a whiel, and I've been reading shortpacked for a while...and I only realised who you were half an hour ago. Mad, huh? Anyway, since I like dolling out praise for no real reason, I'm a fan f your comics, and hope you keep up the excellent work. And yes, Ani Grimlock's tail is too short [[User:GWolfv2]]

==Harley Has Returned==

Well, it was painful and boring waiting a month. But I've re-registered my account - though I'm still ticked off about being locked out for trying to get rid of a really stupid argument on my Talk page. I guess I should have asked a mod or something for advice though... And NOW I've got to put my User-page back up to be smug and self-satisfied about how amazing I am ALL OVER AGAIN. *sigh* Oh well...

And just for the record, I may not be able to add many new pages (my range is still limited) but I've been buying lots of toys lately, so I ought to be able to help with expanding on those sections, if not entire articles. Yours, [[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 10:29, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

== Photos ==

Whoops! A few friends of mine told me they were official. I had no idea they were leaked. Thanks for the heads up!I'll be more careful.[[User:Homey|Homey]] 10:59, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Hey, ItsWalky! I found out the photos weren't leaked;they were from the official transformers video game site(I went there, logged in and saw them) so it's not against policy. But thank you anyway![[User:Homey|Homey]] 12:02, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
: If that's the case, then okey-doke. But note that you shouldn't overwrite Megatron's image with the new render, as you did before. The filename says "Defiance" in it, which is where the image you're overwriting is from, and that makes the filename wrong. Plus, that's his article's main image, and we use the character's first body up there. We don't update it with new bodies as they come out. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

== Goddammit ==

Turn your anonymous LJ commentary back on. Those Moylan's fans have probably lost interest/are too busy slagging off the Animated episodes and the ROTF CG renders. Goddammit. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:02, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

== Vandalism ==

This is just going to a general comment section to inform you of vandalism. Remove all messages after this per deny recognition. Anyway, guess who reared his ugly head...I'd call him a repressed homosexual if I thought he was old enough to understand half of what he wrote. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:03, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/76.247.222.101
:http://www.ip-adress.com/whois/76.247.222.101
:There are phone numbers there. Any of em useable to report him and hopefully get his internet yanked or access to this site blocked or something? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:07, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
::Does AT&T have an abuse phone number/email address? I can't find one on their site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:42, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I've found a form [http://helpme.att.net/servabuse.php here] and sent in an abuse report. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:43, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Can someone who has access save the server access logs for the incident? AT&T will almost certainly want them. (Do we even have access to them here?) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:55, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::OK, AT&T have requested the server logs of the incident. I think we have a real chance of something getting done about this problem here! Does anyone have access to the server logs, or do we need to ask Bookworm for them? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:53, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As a sysop, you have access to that IP's [[Special:DeletedContributions/76.247.222.101|deleted user contributions]], which might be what they're looking for. That's the vandalism and harassment, after all.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:23, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'll see if they'll accept those. I've sent an email to Scout asking about getting a copy of the apache access logs as well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I haven't had a reply from Scout yet, so at this stage I've done all I can. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:53, 7 May 2009 (EDT)

::Heh. It might be quicker for me to spend 20 minuted to drive to AT&T HQ and complain in person. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:57, 5 May 2009 (EDT)

Just to give the admins a little heads up if you haven't already noticed... Fuck Detour (or one of the new user names he's come up with) is back.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 16:41, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
:I killed 'im and mass-deleted his contributions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:46, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
::Have we yet managed to link those phone numbers to a person? Sending death threats across the Internet is a felony, after all....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:48, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
:::They've asked for server access logs... From what I heard mainly Bookworm and Scout have access to them and we haven't heard from them. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:12, 15 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I never heard back from Scout the last time. AT&T won't do anything without server logs as proof the accesses took place. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:59, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

== LOTS OF SHOUTING ==

Diff between the first time MM edited 13OT and your last edit. Note the redundancy, which you added twice: http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301258&oldid=301026

I also note that all your summaries on Recent Changes were SHOUTING, including you blocking MM for "deleting content". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
: Of course I was shouting. Some crazy dude tries to delete Logos Prime from this wiki every other Sunday. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:18, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

== Kup ==

Primus, I'm sorry about that. Didn't mean for that to happen, must have been a glitch. Thanks for catching it. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 22:15, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

== Bumper as a Brazilian character. ==

Hope i'm posting this on the right place...

I did put a cap under Animated Bumper image that said "In Brazil, people know who i am."

I did not mean to say that he's brazilian, but that his toy was among the first wave of the original G1 Transformers released here during the 80's and because of that, lots of fans in Brazil remember him almost as much as Cliffjumper or Bumblebee.

Just wanted to make this clear. I used the caption under the image again, but if you think it shouldn't be used anyway, be my guest and delete it. --[[User:Akumateukuma|Akumateukuma]] 23:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

== Megatron and the nuts ==

It's not MTMTE1 but osme other epesode, but I'm not motivated enough to go and watch the entire show again just to find it and this is the only screen shot I could find:
[[Image:Prime Nutshot.jpg]]
It looks pretty authentic to me. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:13, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for a sight gag, but as far as serious info goes, that's a shot to the breadbasket, not the nutsack.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 12:36, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, we can SEE Megatron's "balls" in that shot. That black ridge between the legs? And they're not getting kicked. His stomach is. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::HOW DO YOU KNOW, WALKY? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT MEGATRON DOESN'T KEEP HIS NARDS IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS ABDOMEN?! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 14:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Me am GNS and me has dis ta sez!
::::Megatron be happy dat Optimus no has jet boots or hiz plastic pubes be on fire!!!
::::Me worships your Lordship and desires to ask ?, why Hot Shot no get fingers win Powerlinx wit others? IT nO fAiR1!1!1!!! [[User:GuyNamedSean|GuyNamedSean]] 07:25, 9 July 2009 (EDT)

== Logo ==

Hey Walky, do you have a largish (or just clear enough for legibility at A4 size) version of our logo that I can print out? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:19, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Wikilogofakebig.jpg|300px]]
: Not really, but here it is blown up a little more! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:23, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Thanks :D --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:29, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

[[:Image:Teletraan corner.psd|This]] is as close to print quality as I have the other design elements. Lemme know when you've downloaded it, so I can nuke it off our filespace.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:As I mentioned in the talkpage, do you have one with our URL on it instead of "Teletraan-1"? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:31, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh, right, right. That was the old version Gimme a sec and I'll fix it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:32, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Done.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:38, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks, done. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:00, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

==ROTF little one - Hightower or Scrapper==

I was going by the alt modes we see on deck. Scrapper's a front loader type thing, whereas Hightower is a crane, which looks similar to the one we see in the film...although that little one image does have that double pronged end on his hand. I also though Scrapper was the one chasing Sam and Mikeala, used a wrecking ball. Anyway, if it is decided it's Scrapper, you'll need to transfer/rewrite the bit for Hightower's page I did. [[User:Eire|Eire]] 22.55 27th June 2009
:It isn't Hightower. Hightower is a truss crane and is quite large. The unnamed dead guy was a smaller excavator-type vehicle. In fact, he's quite similar to the incorrect vehicle mode Demolishor was given in the ROTF adaptation comic. Scrapper was the guy with the mace-fist that chased after Sam & Mikeala. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:31, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

== GIVE ME YOUR FACE ==

Hey David, since you enjoy this even more than I do, can you think of any way of working [http://sale.images.woot.com/Transformers_4_Foot_Wall_Graphixl8iDetail.jpg this Prime image] into the wiki? Normally we'd say something about a purse, but... --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:33, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

== List of characters who have defeated Ravage ==

Shouldn't [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] be among them? ;) [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 03:30, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
: Different Ravage! But hm. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

I think this list would be even cooler than it already is with storylinks included. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 15:07, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

== SG Thunderwing ==

OK, I was looking through the revision history on the "Shattered Glass (franchise)" page, and I found a red-link to an article on Shattered Glass Thunderwing. Upon closer inspection, I found that not only was the article linked to in "Thunderwing (disambiguation)", you were the one who added him to the "Shattered Glass (franchise) page in the first place. Can you please tell me where it came from? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:41, 23 July 2009 (EDT)
: An illustration from "Blitzwing Bop" that was shown at BotCon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:59, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

Let me guess. Coloured like Crossblades? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:18, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
: Universe Silverbolt with a new Thunderwing head, colored like Thunderwing. --[[Special:Contributions/72.255.107.28|72.255.107.28]] 16:07, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

Don't you just hate it when someone suddenly cracks the mirror again? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:40, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

== New article I'm working on ==

Hi I'm currently working on two articles, well one is more finished then that other but still. Now I'm talking about [[User:Dead_Metal/DMsscrapheap#Hasbro_UK_exclusive_limited_Edition_Handmade_Samples|this one]] I don't feel it'S finished enough or up to standards to be posted yet. What do you think, any things I should improve? [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 14:22, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

== AllSpark Almanac shout-out ==
I want to say, I truly appreciate the shout-out on your blog. I have a request - if you're going to link to the book on amazon, would you mind using this link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1600104878?ie=UTF8&tag=thar-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1600104878
Doing so will give me credit on my amazon account, and let's me better track sales. If you'd rather not, no big deal.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:02, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
:Thank you. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 09:52, 20 August 2009 (EDT)

== New Discovery ==

OK, I've been looking around the "TFWiki Problems" thread on the Allspark, and I've discovered [[Talk:Tactician|this]]. Eight words: Previously. Discovered. And. Forgotten. Page. Made. By. Assaulthead. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:17, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

== image ==

I just saw you deleted an Elita-1 image, out of curiosity was that image the concept one?
: Of course. We delete that image at least once a month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:13, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

==Replacing other folks' uploaded images==
I've noticed that you've replaced images a good few times over the years. Sometimes it's for better quality, but others I can't see why. My Bludgeon one? Aspect ratio? Your filename is nigh identical. Others, but can't recall off hand. [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:39, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
: Well, your Bludgeon image was '''1700 pixels across'''. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:02, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
::All the better to see you with, my dear! {{redact|Fecking Office Picture Manager fecks up the compression stuff!}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:36, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, images can't be that big. They really, really can't. If you are incapable of uploading smaller images, I would suggest not uploading them. We do so so much money on bandwidth, dude, and that's money we gotta pay. Furthermore, large files can muck up our auto-backup systems. It's just not a good idea. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
::::And it makes the site Dial-up friendlier!--[[User:Hida Atarasi|Hida Atarasi]] 13:51, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Not strictly, no. The images you see inlined on the pages aren't thumbnails, but images scaled at that size. Separate files from the ones we upload. You could click through that scaled-down image to get to the bigger one, but if you're on dialup and you do that, it's your own fault. :) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:05, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

:::"Fecking Office Picture Manager fecks up the compression stuff!": [http://irfanview.com Irfanview]. Yes I'm pimping this program yet again, but it's free and is totally wonderful at both resizing and compressing stuff small while keeping image quality looking good. It has some nice basic sharpen/color adjustment options ''and'' a built-in program for capturing from a scanner, too. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:10, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

== Ravage ==

Might want to [[:Image:SpotlightSoundwave Bludgeon defeatsLaserbeakRavage.jpg|add this to your list]]. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

== I thought you should know ==

that I got into trouble for defending you and Shortpacked on TFW2005. I might try to push my luck, since it's Fosterlager who gave me the infraction warning (the second he's given me with regards to defending you and the TFWiki in general). Also - why did you disable anon commenting again? :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:07, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
: I'm not surprised that I see no evidence of you in that thread! Those guys are super delete-happy. Anonymous posting is back on as of now. I turned it off because there were a few shitheads the other day. Anonymous-disabling is kind of like shithead protection. Keeps the place from turning into 4chan. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:40, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh, sorry to hear that. I like to occasionally comment on your blog, but I don't wanna get an LJ account (don't have anything to talk about in my life). Thanks for turning anon commenting back on. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:48, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Jolt ==

The Blu-Ray manages to show a pretty clear image of Jolt's robot mode just before he attaches his electro-whips. Should we use it as his main pic? [http://images.dwteam.org/tf/snapshot20091023081257.jpg Yeah, he's standing in front of Jetfire, but one can make him out pretty darn easily.] And 1080p = clear big ass pic. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:55, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
: On one hand, yeah, that's a nice clear picture of him, and probably the only one we get in the movie of his whole body unblurred. On the other, the current main image is, uh, more accurate? Sort of? I mean, it's not just hilarious, but it's generally true. Jolt is always just over somebody's shoulder. I enjoy that all of Jolt's images are out of focus or from under somebody's shoulder. I am not saying no. I'm saying why I like the current setup, but not that it can't change. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:41, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Funny part of that "best image we have of him" is if I didn't know what I was looking for I doubt I'd even notice his tangle of metal was meant to be something seperate from Jetfires. I'm not a realy hater of the movie look but in situations like this it's like a ink-blot test trying to seperate what's him from what's jetfire. Atleast in the blury pics I can easily see what it is I'm not seeing clearly.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:46, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Predacon (BW)

2009-10-24T23:33:39Z

76.28.72.27: minor sp fix

{{factions|predacon|decepticon|{{factions/icons|custom=Timelines_Predacon_Symbol.png|cSize=33px|cLink=Predacon (BW)|cPretty=Predacon}}}}
{{disambig3|Predacon}}
:''The Predacons are a faction in the [[Beast Era]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] continuity.''

[[Image:Predacon symbol.png|right|180px|thumb|You know they're evil. Their icon could poke out an optic.]]
Arising from the ashes of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], the '''Predacons''' are, at least in part, descendants of the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], some sorces suggest they were born from what remained of the original five [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]]. By order of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], they exist as something of an underclass, appearing to be equals, but firmly under the [[Maximal|Maximals]] in the social order. This has led many Predacons to hold bitter grudges against the Maximals.

When Predacons take beast modes, they tend to be dinosaurs, reptiles and arthropods, although this is not a hard-and-fast rule.

The adjective for "of or pertaining to the Predacons" is '''Predaconial'''<ref><tt>A [Maximal] strategic specialist, [[Stinkbomb]] is fascinated with the study of Predaconial psychology.</tt> — [http://www.tfu.info/1999/Maximal/Stinkbomb/stinkbomb.htm Stinkbomb's Tech-Spec], 1999</ref>, though it is ''extremely common'' to simply substitute 'Predacon'.

{{quote|You do not know the Predacons. We—they ''live'' for the glory of conquest.|[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] to [[Tigatron]]|"[[Law of the Jungle]]"}}

{{quote|When Predacons talk truce, it just means they need time to reload their weapons.|[[Optimus Primal]]|"[[Before the Storm]]"}}

{{quote|Prosper or perish is the Predacon way of life, and we plan to survive by driving the Maximals into extinction!|[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]|[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)|Beast Wars]] video game site}}

:''Japanese name:'' '''Destrons'''
:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Prédators'''
:''Polish name:'' '''Predatony'''

== Origin ==
We do not know the origin of the Predacons, beyond the fact that they are descendants of the Decepticons. They were in existence and at war with the [[Maximal Imperium]] prior to the signing of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], at which time most laid down their arms, but a few went rogue.

Different contiuities present differing, sometimes conflicting accounts. One account says that [[Razorclaw (G1)|Razorclaw]] founded the Predacons ([[Predacon (G1)|reusing his old team's name]]) after the Decepticons' defeat, and that they took the fight to Cybertron and could have won if the [[Tripredacus Council]] hadn't stolen control for themselves. {{storylink|BotCon 2009|Timelines Razorclaw's bio card}} Others have the Predacons and Decepticons co-existing for a time. {{storylink|The Razor's Edge}} {{storylink|Descent into Evil}} {{storylink|Beast Wars Sourcebook}} When [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] was in a bad mood, he's said the Predacons came ''after'' the Great War. {{storylink|Code of Hero}} {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}}

In at least one [[Micro-continuity]] the Predacons existed as far back as the 1990s, operating on human inhabited Earth under ''a'' [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Optimus Primal vs Megatron!}} {{storylink|Tarantulas#Toy Bio|Tarantulas toy bio}} It has ben recorded that their way of life was to prosper or perish, and their leader swore they'd do this by driving the Maximals into extinction! {{storylink|Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars|Megatron (1996) bio}} Of course, this may be [[Maximal Elder]] propaganda.

== Organization ==
The Predacons, although apparently governed by an organization known as the [[Predacon Alliance]], appear to be a rather splintered faction. One of the major ruling bodies is the [[Tripredacus Council]], but it is possible they represent only one political voice within the Alliance. As Predacons are known to look down on a [[Democracy|democratic]] system of governance and appear able to accept power plays and treachery if it ''succeeds'' {{storylink|Master Blaster}}, Predacon government can be assumed as autocratic and based on whoever can hold on to power successfully.

The Tripredacus Council keeps its followers pacified under the Pax Cybertronia with the promise of a slow, sly return to power, whispering of a long-term plan to overthrow the Maximals when the time is right. A number of Predacons have expressed dissatisfaction with this approach, leading renegades such as [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] and [[Magmatron]] to recruit private armies of followers and, either covertly or overtly, strike out against the Maximals on their own. Nearly all known Beast Wars-era Predacons tend to fall within the arms of these criminal renegade militias, with the exceptions of [[Tarantulas]] and [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], who were members of the [[Predacon Secret Police]], and the Tripredacus Council itself. It is unknown whether the Predacons have any sort of official standing army or defense force other than this internal Secret Police.

In one continuity, following the [[Great Reformatting]], a revived Predacon force under Razorclaw was preparing for war; though the Tripredacus Council seemed absent and we don't know how large this new insurgent force truely was. {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}} In another, seperate continuity, thousands of years after Beast Machines, the Predacons have been shown to be actively at war with the Maximals across the galaxy {{storylink|Autorollers Roll Out!}} {{storylink|Big Convoy, Move Out}} and have an [[Dead End (BWN)|official army with a military academy]]. The top military rank at this time is "[[Emperor of Destruction]]", and any governing force beyond that is unknown. ''(Note: The placement of this last material is a rather dubious Japanese retcon wich creates numerous issues within the material as originally presented. )''

== Society ==

We don't know much about the Predacons' general lifestyle. All evidence suggests a very militant warrior culture, with power grabs endemic. This is even enshrined for some in an [[Dinobot (BW)|honour system]], where seizing control by force if you think you could do a better job was seen as an honourable, proper act. Predacon honour also put great stock in bravery in battle, a glorious end, and paying off your debts. The fact that the honour system allows for treachery has left Maximals confused. We do not know how widespread this honour system actually ''is'', as the majority of Beast Wars (admitedly criminal renegade) combatants were happy to ignore it.

A number of Predacons are scientists. Academic knowledge and expertise seems respected as long as you can also fight; if you can't, [[Fractyl|you get looked down on]].

Some Predacons have gone for more esoteric skills, such as [[Saberback|magic]].

Unsurprisingly, Predacon society has a strong criminal element. Both [[Crazybolt|individual thieves]] and organised gangs are known. Some gangsters, such as [[Cryotek (RID)|Cryotek]], have become hideously powerful and bold enough to attack the Maximal government.

== Bases of operation ==
It is even unknown where exactly the Predacons are based.

The Tripredacus Council holds meetings aboard a space station, [[Predacon Command Outpost One]].

While one would presume the Predacons also had some sort of presence on Cybertron itself, there's evidence to the contrary. After the Beast Warriors' return to Cybertron following the events of Beast Wars, [[Optimus Primal]], Megatron, and others refer frequently to the missing population as Maximals only. This seems to suggest that they expected the number of Predacons on the planet to be negligible, if not zero. The only notable mention of Predacons in the series comes when [[Rattrap]] wonders what the murderous [[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]] would have been like if he'd been reformatted from a Predacon instead of the Maximal [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]].

{{note|In real life terms the Predacons were excluded from the ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' show and toy line for fear of confusing children with a third faction. ''Beast Machines'' story editor and head writer [[Robert N. Skir]] suggests in his FAQ pages that the Predacons suffered the same fate as the Maximals, though that leaves their absence rather odd.}}

==Note==
Most of the Predacons' [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]] from ''[[Beast Wars II (franchise)|Beast Wars II]]'' are vehicles instead of animals. While the Predacons from ''[[Beast Wars Neo (franchise)|Beast Wars Neo]]'' transform into prehistoric reptiles and animals such as Dinosaurs, Pterosaurs, and ammonites.

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Beast Era]]
[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Wars II]]
[[Category:Beast Wars Neo]]
[[Category:Factions]]
[[Category:Predacons]]

Predacon (BW)

2009-10-24T23:32:10Z

76.28.72.27: An atempt to make the seperation of info by continutity a little more explicit.

{{factions|predacon|decepticon|{{factions/icons|custom=Timelines_Predacon_Symbol.png|cSize=33px|cLink=Predacon (BW)|cPretty=Predacon}}}}
{{disambig3|Predacon}}
:''The Predacons are a faction in the [[Beast Era]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] continuity.''

[[Image:Predacon symbol.png|right|180px|thumb|You know they're evil. Their icon could poke out an optic.]]
Arising from the ashes of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], the '''Predacons''' are, at least in part, descendants of the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], some sorces suggest they were born from what remained of the original five [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]]. By order of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], they exist as something of an underclass, appearing to be equals, but firmly under the [[Maximal|Maximals]] in the social order. This has led many Predacons to hold bitter grudges against the Maximals.

When Predacons take beast modes, they tend to be dinosaurs, reptiles and arthropods, although this is not a hard-and-fast rule.

The adjective for "of or pertaining to the Predacons" is '''Predaconial'''<ref><tt>A [Maximal] strategic specialist, [[Stinkbomb]] is fascinated with the study of Predaconial psychology.</tt> — [http://www.tfu.info/1999/Maximal/Stinkbomb/stinkbomb.htm Stinkbomb's Tech-Spec], 1999</ref>, though it is ''extremely common'' to simply substitute 'Predacon'.

{{quote|You do not know the Predacons. We—they ''live'' for the glory of conquest.|[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] to [[Tigatron]]|"[[Law of the Jungle]]"}}

{{quote|When Predacons talk truce, it just means they need time to reload their weapons.|[[Optimus Primal]]|"[[Before the Storm]]"}}

{{quote|Prosper or perish is the Predacon way of life, and we plan to survive by driving the Maximals into extinction!|[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]|[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)|Beast Wars]] video game site}}

:''Japanese name:'' '''Destrons'''
:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Prédators'''
:''Polish name:'' '''Predatony'''

== Origin ==
We do not know the origin of the Predacons, beyond the fact that they are descendants of the Decepticons. They were in existence and at war with the [[Maximal Imperium]] prior to the signing of the [[Pax Cybertronia]], at which time most laid down their arms, but a few went rogue.

Different contiuities present differing, sometimes conflicting accounts. One account says that [[Razorclaw (G1)|Razorclaw]] founded the Predacons ([[Predacon (G1)|reusing his old team's name]]) after the Decepticons' defeat, and that they took the fight to Cybertron and could have won if the [[Tripredacus Council]] hadn't stolen control for themselves. {{storylink|BotCon 2009|Timelines Razorclaw's bio card}} Others have the Predacons and Decepticons co-existing for a time. {{storylink|The Razor's Edge}} {{storylink|Descent into Evil}} {{storylink|Beast Wars Sourcebook}} When [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] was in a bad mood, he's said the Predacons came ''after'' the Great War. {{storylink|Code of Hero}} {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}}

In at least one [[Microcontinuity]] the Predacons existed as far back as the 1990s, operating on human inhabited Earth under ''a'' [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Optimus Primal vs Megatron!}} {{storylink|Tarantulas#Toy Bio|Tarantulas toy bio}} It has ben recorded that their way of life was to prosper or perish, and their leader swore they'd do this by driving the Maximals into extinction! {{storylink|Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars|Megatron (1996) bio}} Of course, this may be [[Maximal Elder]] propaganda.

== Organization ==
The Predacons, although apparently governed by an organization known as the [[Predacon Alliance]], appear to be a rather splintered faction. One of the major ruling bodies is the [[Tripredacus Council]], but it is possible they represent only one political voice within the Alliance. As Predacons are known to look down on a [[Democracy|democratic]] system of governance and appear able to accept power plays and treachery if it ''succeeds'' {{storylink|Master Blaster}}, Predacon government can be assumed as autocratic and based on whoever can hold on to power successfully.

The Tripredacus Council keeps its followers pacified under the Pax Cybertronia with the promise of a slow, sly return to power, whispering of a long-term plan to overthrow the Maximals when the time is right. A number of Predacons have expressed dissatisfaction with this approach, leading renegades such as [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] and [[Magmatron]] to recruit private armies of followers and, either covertly or overtly, strike out against the Maximals on their own. Nearly all known Beast Wars-era Predacons tend to fall within the arms of these criminal renegade militias, with the exceptions of [[Tarantulas]] and [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], who were members of the [[Predacon Secret Police]], and the Tripredacus Council itself. It is unknown whether the Predacons have any sort of official standing army or defense force other than this internal Secret Police.

In one continuity, following the [[Great Reformatting]], a revived Predacon force under Razorclaw was preparing for war; though the Tripredacus Council seemed absent and we don't know how large this new insurgent force truely was. {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}} In another, seperate continuity, thousands of years after Beast Machines, the Predacons have been shown to be actively at war with the Maximals across the galaxy {{storylink|Autorollers Roll Out!}} {{storylink|Big Convoy, Move Out}} and have an [[Dead End (BWN)|official army with a military academy]]. The top military rank at this time is "[[Emperor of Destruction]]", and any governing force beyond that is unknown. ''(Note: The placement of this last material is a rather dubious Japanese retcon wich creates numerous issues within the material as originally presented. )''

== Society ==

We don't know much about the Predacons' general lifestyle. All evidence suggests a very militant warrior culture, with power grabs endemic. This is even enshrined for some in an [[Dinobot (BW)|honour system]], where seizing control by force if you think you could do a better job was seen as an honourable, proper act. Predacon honour also put great stock in bravery in battle, a glorious end, and paying off your debts. The fact that the honour system allows for treachery has left Maximals confused. We do not know how widespread this honour system actually ''is'', as the majority of Beast Wars (admitedly criminal renegade) combatants were happy to ignore it.

A number of Predacons are scientists. Academic knowledge and expertise seems respected as long as you can also fight; if you can't, [[Fractyl|you get looked down on]].

Some Predacons have gone for more esoteric skills, such as [[Saberback|magic]].

Unsurprisingly, Predacon society has a strong criminal element. Both [[Crazybolt|individual thieves]] and organised gangs are known. Some gangsters, such as [[Cryotek (RID)|Cryotek]], have become hideously powerful and bold enough to attack the Maximal government.

== Bases of operation ==
It is even unknown where exactly the Predacons are based.

The Tripredacus Council holds meetings aboard a space station, [[Predacon Command Outpost One]].

While one would presume the Predacons also had some sort of presence on Cybertron itself, there's evidence to the contrary. After the Beast Warriors' return to Cybertron following the events of Beast Wars, [[Optimus Primal]], Megatron, and others refer frequently to the missing population as Maximals only. This seems to suggest that they expected the number of Predacons on the planet to be negligible, if not zero. The only notable mention of Predacons in the series comes when [[Rattrap]] wonders what the murderous [[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]] would have been like if he'd been reformatted from a Predacon instead of the Maximal [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]].

{{note|In real life terms the Predacons were excluded from the ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' show and toy line for fear of confusing children with a third faction. ''Beast Machines'' story editor and head writer [[Robert N. Skir]] suggests in his FAQ pages that the Predacons suffered the same fate as the Maximals, though that leave their absence rather odd.}}

==Note==
Most of the Predacons' [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]] from ''[[Beast Wars II (franchise)|Beast Wars II]]'' are vehicles instead of animals. While the Predacons from ''[[Beast Wars Neo (franchise)|Beast Wars Neo]]'' transform into prehistoric reptiles and animals such as Dinosaurs, Pterosaurs, and ammonites.

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Beast Era]]
[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Wars II]]
[[Category:Beast Wars Neo]]
[[Category:Factions]]
[[Category:Predacons]]

Talk:Predacon (BW)

2009-10-24T22:51:54Z

76.28.72.27: /* Confusion? */ new section

...Where was it mentioned that the BW Predacons were decended from the G1 Predacons? - [[User:Fulcrum|Fulcrum]] 16:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
:[http://botcon.com/brochurelex.cfm In here] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
::Additionally, IDW's Beast Wars comic shows symbols based on the individual G1 Predacons on the walls of a BW-era Predacon chamber. Ah, yesterday's fanon = today's canon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, someone edited out the part about the Pred council having their meeting on the space station and left a pointless fragment in its place. Either we should say they meet there like it did, or at least say there is a station. But just saying "they meet" is stupid and pointless and out of place in that section. Is their debate over the station?
:Sorry. Leaving it that way was an accident on my part. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Although they did appear to convene on the station in the Agenda, they were intended to meet on Cybertron. The IDW "Gathering" series, portrays them meeting on the surface of Cybertron instead. It might be said that convening on the station was only a temporary anomaly.
::I was under the impression that they were intended to meet on a space station, but not the one hit by the Transwarp wave. I don't really know why I think that, or what the point would be. -[[User:LV|LV]] 01:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The script seems to think they're on that Predacon outpost:
:ext. space -- as before
:The Transwarp blast wave expands outward, approaching the Cybertronian system...
:ext. predacon outpost command station -- space

:Shaped like a cool predatory space station -- not a sphere. The wavefront PASSES OVER IT, triggering SPARK FLARES and ALARM KLAXONS.

:predacon computer voice
:Warning! Circuits disrupted! All systems offline!
:Lights are going out all over the station.

:inside predacon station

:Dark inside, with FLASHES of light as sparks FLARE from disrupted equipment. Dark, vaguely-seen ROBOT SHAPES (ref. ep. 34) run in the corridors.

:predacon computer voice
:Predacon Command Outpost One inoperative. Emergency power activated.

:Dim red emergency lights FLICKER ON in the floor. PUSH IN on them and:
:match cut to:

:int. tripredicus council room
:START TIGHT on an emergency light in the tabletop as it FLICKERS ON. PULL BACK as we SEE that its dim redness vaguely illuminates the robot face of GENERAL RAMHORN. The two other members of the Tripredacus Council, GENERAL SEACLAMP and GENERAL CICADACON, are also dimly visible around the table.

== Confusion? ==

So this part:

''Following the Great Reformatting, a revived Predacon force under Razorclaw was preparing for war; the Tripredacus Council seemed absent, and we don't know how large this force was. Dawn of Future's Past Thousands of years after that, the Predacons have been shown to be actively at war with the Maximals across the galaxy [[Autorollers Roll Out!]] [[Big Convoy, Move Out]] and have an official army with a military academy. The top military rank at this time is "Emperor of Destruction", and any governing force beyond
that is unknown. ''

Earlier in the article we refer to the IDW profile version where BW2 and Neo are set before the great war. Here we describe them as Thousands of years after Beast Machines. I understand there are different continuities involved here but the article, as written, does NOT communicate that well at all. (I'm not even sure that description is true in Japanese continuity by the way.) Just odd, and confusing. Anyone think this article might need a rewrite better seperating conflicting info by its appropriate continuity?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 18:51, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

User talk:RolonBolon

2009-10-24T22:36:27Z

76.28.72.27: /* Vibes */ new section

==Future projects==
* Goofy-ass G1 weapons
* Scriptwriters
* Complete 2007 movie bit players
* Finish any and all [[Micromasters]] entries

==Style==
I'd be more encouraged if what I'm working on wouldn't be marked for deletion while I'm working on it.--[[User:JJohnson|JJohnson]] 19:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Try creating something which hasn't already been created, sir!
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Characters:_Generation_1_and_2_%28Autobots%29
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Characters:_Generation_1_and_2_%28Decepticons%29
I mean, you have both separate lists of Autobots and Decepticons... AND a list that emcompasses both! Your lists are redundant in themselves. And frankly, this wiki began as a bunch of lists. We've had lists. We don't need more lists, especially lists that already exist. Lists lists lists. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Lists. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

...lists? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
:Do we have a list of lists, or would that be too meta? --[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 06:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I like lists... [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 23:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

George Rodd likes lists. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You know who else likes lists? The terrorists. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 03:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I had no idea RoboBolan had appeared so many places! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
: I'm everywhere, baby. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 06:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

==Madness/death==
Too much knowledge can lead to madness...even '''death'''.
: Clearly this Wiki should have been named ''The Underbase''. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
::If the wiki needs a motto, that should be it - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 19:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

==Bit players for the movie==
Are you creating [[Special:Deadendpages|these?]] --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 01:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:It, ah, appears that I am. Not really sure how to rectify that, though. As participants in an official Transformers production, they do deserve to have pages here - but I don't know if the characters they play really warrant their own pages. Maybe it we had a page for a full cast and crew listing - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
::Indeed. I'm not aware of a precedent for having links in section headings, so I didn't go and do that *yet*. I'm a little wary regardless,as've never considered IMDB the most reliable resource. These are from the DVD credits, right? --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 02:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I double-checked to make sure that the IMDB credits line up with those on the DVD. Maybe if I changed the header to "...an American actor who appeared in [[Transformers (2007)|Transformers]]"? - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 02:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
::::Something like that would probably be fine. I suppose I could've done so myself in the first place! I suppose I am not the sharpest tool. I apologize. /:) --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 02:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

== Black Horizon ==

See the history for Part 1 and 2. They were moved to "issue" in the title, which is on the cover as well as "part". Please change it back for consistency. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 20:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

== Vibes ==

You were the one who created the [[Vibes]] page near as I can tell from the History page. Do you happen to remember where the interview that establishes her sex and name are from? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 18:36, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Vibes

2009-10-24T21:56:37Z

76.28.72.27: New page: Could we have a link to said interveiw? Must have missed this one.--~~~~

Could we have a link to said interveiw? Must have missed this one.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 17:56, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Una

2009-10-24T19:26:42Z

76.28.72.27: New page: Chak and Una's names were a reference to something RL right? I forget exactly what but it should likely go in trivia, yes? --~~~~

Chak and Una's names were a reference to something RL right? I forget exactly what but it should likely go in trivia, yes? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 15:26, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Hasbro Q&A/October 2009: Answers

2009-10-22T12:56:04Z

76.28.72.27:

Woo! First time I've gotten a question in!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:49, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

==Airazor==
So, ''Universe'' Airazor is a separate character from Slingshot or what? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 02:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:Seems they're saying it's the same situation as Octane/Tankor.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:57, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
In this circumstance Slingshot was no longer available to use. Airazor is a 'male' character that was designed in memorium of Slingshot.
</blockquote>
:Looks like "Airazor is a new male charater" to me. Am I the only one thinks the answer is vague or even doesn't answer the question at all?Ooops, I misread the Q3, thank for notice. (But I still want to mention this.) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:16, 22 October 2009 (EDT) The only thing we can learn for sure from the answer is "''Slingshot'' was no longer available to use". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:01, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

::The question didn't ask whether they were the same character, or if it was intended to it was badly phrased. The question ''seems'' to only ask if this character is male or female.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:11, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Asking Hasbro questions is really like making a wish from a genie in a bottle. You have to be insanely precise with your question, make sure your question actually asks what you want to know, and covers all the aspects you want answers to, while at the same time making the question easy enough to understand.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 03:49, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::The question effectively assumes that Airazor is a different character to Slingshot, and Hasbro plays along, not bothering to correct this apparent misconception and even saying Airazor was designed "in memorium" {{sic}} of Slingshot. Either we have a Q&A dude who's not good at wording his response or Airazor is a new character made in homage to, and to cover up the absence of, Slingshot. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::That reads as "New male character, no relation to the BW character, not Slingshot." It furthermore ''implies'' that Slingshot is somehow DEAD in whatever universe this set exists in (perhaps during the war against the Cybertronian Empire, he was killed by a mysterious wasting disease.) [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:41, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I kinda doubt Hasbro really meant to imply all that about who this is, but if you want to dig for meaning in what they said and how they happened to phrase it, yeah you can definately pull out that meaning. Which I guess is better than leaving him a total cifer that no one's ever gonna spotlight or give any story to, which is how he stands if we don't over-read Hasbro. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-10-22T12:52:31Z

76.28.72.27: /* Opposition */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Boxes gone from disambig templates? ==
I noticed the disambiguation templates don't seem to have those gray boxes behind them anymore. Is this intentional? Because it's confusing. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:16, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Derik shifted the CSS styling into the stylesheet. Your browser probably had the old stylesheet cached, but a shift-reload should fix it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it did actually. Thanks! -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

And they (well, the ones Derik hit anyway) sprouted a thick grey left border in the transition because...? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:34, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!
:Main advantage of switching the disambig boxes to CSS: When you have multiple in a row, they stack prettier without a double-outline between them. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:47, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::''I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!''
::If that's not a Derikism, it deserves to be. (And is the main reason why I'm scared of changing to external CSS rather than inline CSS - you having the keys to the styles virtually unfettered, since those admins who could either override or yank the emopanda CSS mostly either don't know how or are absent much of the time)
::So now we have disambig templates that are unique amongst messageboxen in a particularly... nondescript way. Different enough to be irritating, not different enough to serve any real purpose. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:09, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Eh? Oh, I thought I changed it back. (I remembered why they had a border on the left... I was testing something and decided it didn't work, I didn't realize it was still on.)
:::In theory Scout was going to make some changes last week to move us out of the existing CSS situation with much less living in my dev file... but she seems to have forgotten... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:24, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What was she planning to do? I can have a crack at it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Move a bunch of stuff to [[MediaWiki:common.css]], I expect.
:::::(Note the difference between Common.css [all skins, including the ones no-one uses like Simple and MySkin], Monacobook.css [Monacobook only] and Monobook.css [Monobook only]. Scout [[User_talk:Suki_Brits#.22Fixed.22_Monobook|forgot about Monobook]] the last time common.css was edited. Incidentally, where did she ultimately put those changes? They ain't in the empty Monacobook.css.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I have a suspicion that the plan may be to create a new user class with rights to edit css files here (in which case I don't have the necessary access rights to do so)... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:59, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That was the one. :) Either she forgot, or she tried and it didn't work. I'll bug her when I remember. (It's not like it's pressing... it's been needing doing for some time so it can wait a bit longer.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::And to answer the css question, the changes are in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css this file] which isn't editable through the Mediawiki interface. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:03, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Scout, I have 3 requests."
:::::::"No, no, yes if I don't have to do any work."
:::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Did that ever get done in the end? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== WTF? ==
Why does [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]] even exist? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:35, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

== Obscure BW comic, anyone? ==
Alright for the past while now, I've been looking up and adding in obscure Beast Wars products. I remembered both the Mutating Card Game and both Jigsaw Puzzles, and I've already taken note to add those in. But one piece of memorabilia that has still eluded me is a really old comic... My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, and I can't quite recall if it was a seperate mini-comic from the two-pack of "Optimus vs. Megatron!" or if the scenes I'm remembering are part of that comic as well.
The only scenes I recall from said comic are the opening, where a pre-earth mode Cheetor peeks through some vegetation to reveal a (very small) crystal. The subsequent dialog explained that they had to take on beast modes to overcome the toxic radiation of the crystal (much like the tv show).
Anyone has any similar recollection? Or if anyone has scans of the "Optimus vs. Megatron!" mini-comic to clear up wether or not it is a scene from that comic that I'm remembering, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I hope I'm not going crazy and remembering a comic that doesn't exist, because as far as I can tell, it's not listed on the Beast Wars comics page. Thanks --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:23, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

:It's not the "Optimus Primal Vs. Megatron!" comic, that one starts with Primal(in beast mode) flying in the sky, and then Cheetor running in the dark with a glow in his eyes. Unless you mistake the sparkle in his eyes for a crystal, it's not the same comic.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== Categories for modes? ==

I've been trying to find out which transformer one of my old toys is, and I'd hoped I could compare it against each of the transformers with an aeroplane mode - but I couldn't find such a list. So I wondered whether it would be a good idea to have categories for the transformers' modes, so I could go to [[:Category:Aeroplanes]] and look it up like that. Good idea? I'm not volunteering to do the legwork :-) [[Special:Contributions/86.7.22.40|86.7.22.40]] 06:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:[http://tfu.info/ID/index.htm This external link] might help. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:56, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Notes" ==
When did we start changing all the "Trivia" subheaders to "Notes"? ...And why even bother?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 20:17, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:Someone stated that they hated the header "Trivia" as it made the info seem inconsequential when sometimes it was actually useful/relevant, and those of us who thought they had a point started going along with that thought. (Although much to my annoyance I don't recall off-hand who said it or where, other than I think maybe it was on one of the Shattered Glass articles.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::It becomes irritating to me since "Notes" was solely confined to the comics and media articles and "Trivia" was confined to character and toy pages, so now we've got a bunch of random character pages with a "Notes" section (Hot Rod character page, for instance) and others with a "Trivia" section (Hot Rod toy page, for instance) for no particular reason. It looks sloppy and I have no idea whether I should be trying to track down and reset the headings to one or the other or if I'll get warned for it.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 23:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::"Someone" was probably me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:16, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, you're our resident cruft inquisition!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I think some page's contents in the Trivia sections is, um, mixed up with notes (relevant but can't be put in other section) and trivia (a little irrelevant BUT notable) things. So, maybe page like this would still need a trivia section, that is, separate their Trivia section into Trivia and Notes section. Of course, that may involve subjective view of the users who edit the page.--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:19, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::So are we going to decide on some form of consistent change or just use the two words randomly?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 02:31, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've been changing pages to "Notes" as I work them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:34, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It'd also be a fairly easy bot request.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:38, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Easy as long as you have a full list of the pages on the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:39, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::It's not as simple as it might appear - we have [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|episode pages]] with Notes sections with Trivia subsections, so the bot would have to take that into account (and a blanket change of #Trivia anchors wouldn't be possible because some will be legitimately pointing to those Trivia sections). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::In the case of the bot request I made, I specifically said to replace <nowiki>==Trivia==</nowiki> with <nowiki>==Notes==</nowiki>. The pages you reference have <nowiki>===Trivia===</nowiki>, which should be possible to exclude in a search.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:54, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Preventing direct image linking ==

As we know, the wiki costs a fair bit to run and early on in our post Bookworm crash server move, it used more bandwidth than our bosses calculated, so the last thing we need is people going around directly linking images off of our server for forums or even their blogs or whatever (The [[Mountain Dew Robot]]s logo was one of our most popular articles... because some idiot linked the image to his website). Is there any way for us to prevent this? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:54, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes and no.
:Yes in the sense that it's pretty easy to create an .htaccess file that redirects hotlinks in some way.
:No in the sense that it might break the GoBoxes, if there isn't some way to make it so that the rewrite rules allow just the GoBox images to be hotlinked. Hrm. Although I think the GoBoxes are all PNGs, and we have very few PNGs as normal images, so it might not be ''that'' big a workaround problem. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, all the gobox images are in their own folder anyway, so it's simple enough to exclude them. This is probably a REALLY good idea; somebody give me a suitable (and tiny) replacement image and I'll try to make it so. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 08:45, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on what you had in mind. You could either go the route of just making a one pixel GIF (i.e. smallest image possible), or maybe use our logo with "no hotlinking permitted" written on it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:01, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Goatse. Or the nearest TF equivalent of "ridiculous shock image." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:00, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Anything from Kiss Players, then. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:09, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::...can we still let me inline images on my blog? Can we make exceptions? Because sometimes I do that, because it's technically me paying for the bandwidth anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:17, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Whitelisting domains is easy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::I'm not extremely savvy with that kind of stuff (most of my knowledge coming from archived talkpages on this wiki), so I have no idea whether it's possible.
:::::::What ''is'' a goatse, anyway? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::You don't want to know if you don't already. Trust me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Sorry I asked.
:::::::::*remembers the vandal that came in and messed with some talk pages* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::''"Or the nearest TF equivalent"'' - Something like [[:Image:Tftm1986e.jpg|this]], you mean? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:50, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Something more like [[:Image:LegionRape1.jpg|this]] would be "the nearest TF equivalent", surely. [Or, potentially even more disturbing, [[:Image:AtariScream.jpg|this]].] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:07, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Even Kiss Players is only about a 3 on the shock meter compared to Goatse. An image of Pat Lee might be appropriate... I suggest sticking to something small anyway, otherwise the bandwidth problem is still there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:41, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::How about [[:Image:Siestacron.gif|this]] with something like "You have found The Void." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:52, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I vote for Pat Lee. That's awesome. BANDWIDTH SUPERSTAR! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 18:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, the GoBoxes are fairly bandwidth-light, right? What if we did a variation on them, with the leeched image replaced with a notice that the image was leeched, and encouraging them to go to TFWiki.net to learn about Transformers?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:57, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:I stand by my Kiss Players suggestion. That or the image of dead Prime from TFTM with a tagline at the bottom saying "This image is dead due to hotlinking." --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
::Rosicrucian has the right idea. We make it work for us, rather than just 'punish' the people doing it. We don't try to shock or dismay, just state that hotlinking is bad (m'kay?) and that tfwiki.net is the place to learn about Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

:FFN brought up an important issue! (FFN also totally forgot about this immediately after posting the original question and only just read this discussion.) And yeah, I totally forgot about the Go-Box. Since I'm not on the Allspark, I've never really seen the go box in use, other than Derrik Wyatt's blog. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:22, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Quintessa.jpg|thumb|250px]]
::'''This''' is about the most vindictively confusing thing you could spike someone with, IMO. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:47, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::USE IT. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

== GoBots on this wiki ==
===Initial kick-off===
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[Tonka GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Depth of coverage?===
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Some initial chime-ins===

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?===

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights ====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]
::::Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Canon or not-canon====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvelverse side-discussion redux====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
:Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Multiverse side-discussion====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
::::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Why do we care about what Heinlein says, again? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.===

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Re: Point one: There's still a large number of Generation 1 characters who need their Sunbow cartoon fiction sections written up. And there's also missing Animated and Movie-related info out there. And that's just for starters. There's far more than just the esoteric stuff that needs writing up.
::::::::Re: Point two: If we're going to write up GoBots merely because it's a part of the TF universe, then we'd at least need to do the same for GI Joe, Marvel, and Star Wars as well. If anything, Marvel and Star Wars would have priority because they actually factor heavily into officially-branded Transformers merchandise. I find the argument about which franchise will have more official TF fiction than another completely irrelevant as we don't care (in terms of editing) what a franchise does or doesn't do outside of how it's interacted with Transformers.
::::::::Nor is what it will or won't do relevant either, as GI Joe at least already has a large chunk of existing fiction that would make it important enough to worry about regardless of whether it ever gets more TF-oriented fiction.
::::::::I'm not biased against GoBots or anything, I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. We simply don't need to in order to be successful at our "mission" of providing info on all things TF. Maybe if Hasbro ever has a brain fit and decides to stop making new TF stuff, and we finish writing up all of the existing stuff, we might need to expand our scope to stay viable, but that point isn't any time soon that I'm aware of. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (G1)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

===A potential solution===
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::I could get behind that as a compromise.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::If you guys created a separate GoBots wiki, I would gleefully contribute as much as I contribute here. Wouldn't be too hard, either, since a good chunk of the episodes are available online and Counter X has scans of most of the really hard to find comics from the US and the UK. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:02, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be for it as well. We'd need an inter-wiki linking schema-- "gobots:" and "transformers:" seem dangerous-- there's gonna be articles called "Transformers: Subtitle", which makes that... um... potentially fraught. How about "w:gb:" vs. "w:tf:"? That mirrors the interwiki linkign schema used by Wikia to cross-link their sites, and is nicely distinct. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:30, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Honestly, I was about to suggest that myself, but I've been highly distracted as of late. Seems like the best solution to me... plus, it's a perfect excuse to haul out the GoBots bin and do extensive photoshoots of those. Of course, the big question... what do we name the band? GBWIKI to keep with TFWIKI's theme? That's where I'm leaning. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hrm... the toyline was just "GoBots," but the cartoon was "Challenge of the GoBots"... ''ah!'' But there were GoBot ancillary materials (like storybooks) not branded COTG, but simply "GoBots."
::There is no clear delineation that corresponds to the portion of the brand Hasbro may own. Calling it "Challenge..." would implicitly limit it to the cartoon and exclude other things. "GoBots" is probaby what we want to hit. So yeah-- "GBWiki" since the reason we're "TF" instead of "Transformers" is to avoid Hasbro's trademark-- and they '''do''' own the trademark on "GoBots." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:43, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could likely whip up a take on the GoBots logo for it when I get home.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I am particularly thinking: "GOBOTS - MIGHTY ROBOTS, MIGHTY WIKI" as the tagline.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:56, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Challenge of the GoBoxes!" Naahh, of course not. I just wanted to say it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::On that note, it wouldn't be hard at all to throw together a version of the Go Boxes using the GB logo's "GO" instead of our usual Prime-trailer-inspired one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:15, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Heheheheheheheheh. -[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Some surely practical suggestions:
::::*'''Interwiki schema:''' <nowiki>[[w:gb:Crasher]] / [[w:tf:Crasher (G1)]]</nowiki>
::::*'''site url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net (avoiding "Gobots" in the url since it's trademarked)
::::*'''Example article url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/w3/index.php?title=Crasher
::::*'''.htaccess cleared url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/wiki/Crasher
::::"w3" is arbitrary... sub-domains won't actually overlap the file-structure of the existing wiki. (But I feel like installing multiple wikis on one db-server might require a prefix.) Sub-domain feels like a good idea-- both because it's free, and because it enforces our co-branding. Anyway, I'm throwing those parameters out.
::::There '''seems''' to be consensus on this, but if we genuinely intend to spin off another wiki, I feel like there should probably be a formal community vote on the matter. You know-- since TFWiki ''isn't'' run by a cabal of #wiggii members?
::::Say... Measure passage requires 50% of voting editors and 2/3 of voting administrators voting "yea"-- with at least 1/3 of all administrators participating in the vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:11, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How many admins to we have?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I count nine. How many are actually active right now is another matter. Also, we need to do this. GoBots won't get a wiki at all otherwise. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, it'd require at least 3. Which is reasonable, given that TFWiki has some fairly inactive admins. (In a proper 'security council' scenario you'd want 6 of 9 admins participating for any measure to pass. 3 of 9 with at least 2 yea just ensures minimal oversight.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hopefully, we won't need a "security council" anytime soon. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::We don't have a lot of big votes like this one. AFAIK, the move from Wiki and re-licencing have been it.
:::::::::The admin-requirement really only exists to keep a bunch of editors from proposing something silly/crazy on a dead weekend and declaring it passed. (Not that the community would go along with it, but having a bare-minimum administrator rubberstamp requirement heads off potential mischief.) At least, this was the arbitrary requirement I came up with when we passed the relicensing vote, since I'm '''not''' an admin and I was the one proposing it, it seemed important as a means to establish the legitimacy of the vote. (We only got 3 admin voting for that... it was in the middle of convention season and half our people were gone.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::'''Is''' this what we think we want to do? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Those links link to wikia. Odd. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:00, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, very odd. KILL THEM NOW. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
On an interwiki schema... why not just <nowiki>[[tfwiki:*]] and [[gbwiki;*]]</nowiki>? It has the advantage of simplicity. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, to me this seems the easiest to remember.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::''*shrug*'' Forward-compatability? Site names are fine for everything we link to now, but a future sister-site could overlap existing article names. Frankly, my real motivation is that w:subject: names mean I could type "w:starwars:" instead of constantly misspelling "wookieepedia:" (I always forget the double-e.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And yeah, I think "w:name:" is currently set to link to wikia. Hrm. "ss:subject:"? (Sister-site?) "p:subject:"? (partner.)
::Wikipedia has a buttload of arbitrary prefixes for interwiki linking. A single consistent schema seems better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, this would seem to be a good opportunity to kill all the wikia interwiki links (except for the link-exchange deal with Wookieepedia). If a wikia page must be linked to, let it be an external (nofollow) link.
:::And the proposed gbwiki would be a sister/subproject, not a true external wiki like <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:*]]</nowiki> (and note the lack of a secondary prefix there). - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Not to be a bummer,I love the idea of a GoBot sister wiki, sounds like a lot of fun creating and reading, but an important point has been raised in the Allspark discussion of this: Can we afford it? Our Wiki apparently dosen't always quite pay for itself ad-wise and is basically kept afloat by Walky. Yes, a GoBot wiki would be smaller (and hopefully cheaper) but it also would likely be less popular a draw for adds. (GBs being much less mainstream than TFs now are). Again, it just seemed like a point that should be raised before we dive into the cool project... --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I offered to make a donation in that thread. Walky said that this wiki costs around $160 a month to maintain, with around $130 being covered by the ads, with those numbers fluctuating every month, obviously. A GoBots wiki would be only a fraction of the size of thise wiki, even when 100% completed in every way imaginable. With ads factored in, about how much do you think we'd need a month to cover the remainder? I could throw in $10 to $20 every month or thereabouts, and if a handful of people sporadically felt the urge to donate equal or less, you think we'd be covered or at least took the brunt of the financial burden off of Walky's shoulders?
:If we CAN do a GoBots wiki, it'd be nice if money wasn't what kept us from making it happen. But hey, I understand that that's the way the world goes 'round and all. Just sayin' that if a fraction of us skipped McDonald's once a month and gave that fiver to the wiki, we might be more or less financially secure. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Of course, we could just run the theoretical Gobots wiki on the same server, with the same ad boxes. Unless somehow we got a MASSIVE spike in traffic from Gobots fans that aren't Transformers fans (which I am somehow not seeing), it would probably work out to be exactly the same. (Not to discourage anyone from helping the wiki financially. You can do that also and it would help regardless. I'm just sayin'.) --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::This is good news. This would be ideal, if possible.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::What about a donation drive? We could have a meter on the frontpage, and after the donations reach an amount that could keep the wiki afloat for a while, we could launch GBWiki. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

===Opposition===
Do we have the time or "manpower" for this? This wiki still needs a lot of work. For example, The Unicron Trilogy articles (especially Armada Mini-Cons) and the Beast Wars/Machines are more or less still a mess, and not up to the standards of more recent articles or more frequently-updated articles. I think we should work on getting these pretty important eras of '''Transformers''' up to scratch before our more frequent contributors divert (some) of their attention and free time to GoBots. And yes, I have recently put work into updating Armada and Beast Wars articles where possible, since our other members are most ably handling everything else. And no, I'm not suggesting the wiki should be work, I just think we should get this into order before we start doing something else. Maybe it's my probable Aspergers talking. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:50, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:You're assuming that people who would be working on this have any real knowledge or familiarity with UT materials. Someone may absolutely hate Armada/Energon/Cybertron and have no material to add there, but have much material to add to GoBots. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::From what I've seen, a good number of the people in this discussion or have discussed it elsewhere are those who have no problem with the UT or actually like it. But there's also Beast Wars - if everybody here likes BW, why are the articles so bad? :p I mean, if I was a newcomer to Transformers (or a returning fan because of the movies), I'd be pretty dissapointed if I came here looking for information about this "Beast Wars" other fans are always raving about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::At one point finishing all the BW or G1/RiD articles seemed like a pipe dream. Effort over time did it.
:::Frankly, I think the potential for such a split to draw in new editors outweighs the negatives of potentially splitting people's attention. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and of course, I can't make people do things they don't feel like doing. Still, concerns are concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:37, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wasn't trying to say that any particular person hated UT or BW, just that the assumption that the editors who would be working on GB would be drawn away from other parts is not necessarily true. Some people may become more active on mainstream TF articles even while working on GB articles. Something different often energizes people, and that energy can carry over to other things.
::::::Yeah, you can't force people to work on articles that don't interest them. If the spirit moves them to work on BW and UT they will. Adding a GoBot "section"/sister-wik wouldn't stop anything from happening (especially if it isn't happening to begin with). And it might just draw in new contributers or set someone off on a wiki-fying binge that gets a bunch of TF stuff done too. (ZacWilliam, logged out again, dumb laptop)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

== Audio file problems - they don't seem to work ==
I don't think we ever resolved this when Derik brought it up a long time ago, but whatever script we use for audio files doesn't work, at least it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. On Wikia wikis, when you click on a "listen to this audio file", your browser should activate java, buffer the ogg file and play it. However, on TFWiki, the browser merely tries to download the file, not play it. If you choose to open the file via your browser's download dialogue, the file downloads into your temp files and plays it off the nearest compatible media player, which is a *''remarkably''* roundabout way of doing things. Is there any way we can fix this? (I'm using Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 6)--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:19, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm assuming that Wikia must have some embedded audio file player installed or something, which is probably doable via an extension. I have to admit I don't see it as a high priority... having the browser call up a helper file is a normal way of handling such things, plus I like being able to download and save the file.
:Not only that, but we barely have any audio files to worry about... I think the Scene Transition page is the only article I've come across that has an appreciable number of audio files on it. Although now that I think about it, I wonder if creating WAVs of characters' main quotes where possible might be an interesting idea, to give samples of what characters sound like. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:09, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Downloading - well, there's the minor issue that the majority of our users will be unable to play .ogg files anyway, for even if codecs are easily had, it's a fairly obscure format. Hell, I never even heard of it until 2005. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:27, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::WinAmp plays OGGs just fine out-of-the-box, among a number of other media players out there, so I don't see an issue. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:35, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:In case we want to install an extension to handle this: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:50, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

== Editing Go Boxes? ==
I've utterly failed at finding a guide to editing a Go Box address, so I figured I'd just note that the Go Box for "Tankor (ROTF)" instead links to a blank "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" page for some reason. {{unsigned|MCRG Again}}
:Fixed. Someone put the destination page down as "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" in [[Template:Goicons]], thus causing the GoBox to send you to a non-existent page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== When was the last Database backup? ==

Just curious. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:That is exactly why we need that "Database last backed-up by: (insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)." thing someone suggested a long time ago. That way, we may avoid Bookworm Crash 2.0. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:15, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Of course, one of the major causes of The Bookworm Event was that corrupt or otherwise failed backups were being registered as successful. That backups are regularly checked is just as important as backups being made in the first place, and "(insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)" wouldn't prove that. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::At least we know if there ''is'' a backup to check at all. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::By us, manually? I dunno. We pay for automatic backups every week as part of our hosting. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah, that last one is slightly more reassuring.
:::I mean-- they're the same automatic backups Bookworm was theoretically making, but IIRC the current host was picked (in part) for having a good reputation for such things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:32, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::McFly confirmed [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive41#Googlejuice_-_Bad_News_Everyone|a while back]] that the auto backups were working, so hopefully they still are. Good news for when we eventually upgrade the software! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

==Self-sufficiency==
It's come up that the hosting costs for this site exceed the revenue generated by this site. That's a bad situation, not sustainable in the long run. Because I don't want to see the site go away, addressing it should be a big concern. Is there anything we can do to generate extra revenue?
I see a few potential avenues:
:a: more advertising or better advertising.
:b: licensing out some of our content. This is tricky, since it's partially not owned by us. But what about something like an iPhone app that pulls in our This Day in Transformers History? That should be ok if we don't use the name Transformers - it'd be a kind of news service.
:c: some kind of virtual gifts or badges perhaps? I'm thinking like the gigantion award for contributions, but where users have the option of paying a dollar to send another editor a token of some sort. Cons are that it would require some sort of transaction engine and coding.
Any other ideas?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:53, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Another idea - best one yet, maybe. Add in amazon links to all products, and set up an affiliate account. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:47, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The hosting costs for this site SOMETIMES don't exceed the revenue generated. And the difference is usually by $5-10 if so. We're not in a crisis by any stretch. But I do have some ideas. I'm thinking of putting a minimum bid on the top ad. I've been told that having a minimum bid reduces the amount of bidders, but in my experience with Shortpacked!, the opposite is true. I lost a lot of money by removing the minimum bid for a few months, and stuff shot right back up to normal when I reinstated it. The only problem I see with that is that our top ad IS kind of unstandard-sized, so that means we're aiming it at a smaller pool of advertisers than most. But I'm gonna try this thing. The top ad's only bringing in $1.60/day at this very moment anyhow, and so that's not a huge investment to lose either way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:59, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The unfortunate underside to this is that you have to cancel all of the spot's current bids to change the minimum bid. It'll take a day or two for ads to show up again as folks return to it. But I'll throw up an ad on there myself to bridge the time.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And just like that we're in the black. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:05, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Segue-touring out of crassly commercial concerns into site-content concerns that ''overlap'' crassly commercial ones...
:::Our "year" pages are a mess. No one works on them, and they're just kinda... there and useless.
:::For months I've been toying with a suggestion that we re-format them (dumping what we have, which isn't much in most cases) and re-do them as a cross between the old "annual assortment" pack-in brochures and the old TSarchive wave listings. (Which I always found useful for gettign a picture of what came out when.)
:::For the old pages it'd basically be a wave listing, but for the current year, you'd have a functional "What's out/what's upcoming" list, which could be updated with dates a wave was first sites, when a product was available online... Including Amazon-icon links after character names is a ''plus'', because it give users the ability to see the gallery, read reviews, etc.
:::I just think it could be really ''useful'', I often feel swamped by the sheer volume of TF merchandise being offered, and I'd love to have a large central page that keeps track of it all. That such a page might serve as a revenue stream is pure gravy on top. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:16, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm willing to use my existing Amazon seller's account for this.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:21, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::We could implement this idea without totally scrapping the year pages couldn't we? Split out the toy pages for more recent years so you don't have to browse way down the page to get to the Amazon links and such, while still keeping our other info. As for nothing being done with them, I've been looking for a new Wiki project to work on. I'll start tackling these, once we have a consensus on what to do with them.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 23:26, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::See, the difference between being in the red and in the black is like 50 cents a day. I don't think we need to try that hard. I don't think the Wiki needs to be a For-Profit business. What would we even do with the money? Advertise more? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on how much money we get. I mean, dovetailing with the BG wiki idea... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:53, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The whole financial "crisis" came out of the notion that we might not be able to afford a GoBots Wiki. Thus bringing to light the sudden reality that we might not be able to exceed Super Jawsome levels and reach Mega Jawsome status because of cash strappitude. If maintaining the TF Wiki as-is isn't a financial bother, if the GB Wiki (should it ever happen) does turn out to create an issue, I'm still willing to donate and I'm sure a handful of chums around here are also up to the task. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 19:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah... I don't think that people are realizing that running another wiki on the same server, on a subdomain is ''literally'' free. I mean-- it will have to share bandwidth with TFWiki... but that's no different than if we documented the material within this site! They're just logistically separate. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
===Analytics for October 2008 - October 2009===
[[Image:Analytics october2009.png|thumb|250px|What are you squinting at this for? click on it to get the full-size version!]]
Discussing site promotion prompted me to take a look at our analytics again.
*Traffic dipped 20% in mid-September, finally shedding most of our movie bump... but stayed above where we were in May when the bump began. (Translation: We gained.) The economy's pinch on people's free time, plus the relative lull in TF news is probably a factor here.
*In the last 3 weeks, we've had a surge in search-engine traffic-- vast numbers of which ('''much''' moreso than normal) are leaving right after getting here, meaning we don't have the information they're looking for.
*This spike is almost certainly related to people searching for information about the ROTF DVD release. Not information on the film itself... because traffic on our film page has seen no corresponding spike.
I suggest we create a "ROTF DVD field guide" page, listing all the different versions, what features come with what, pictures of the box (if possible) where they're available, etc. (We're talking about ~2,500 people every day that come here looking for this, then immediately leave because we don't have it.) The traffic spike around the DVD promotion seems to be mirroring the one around the film (though to a much smaller degree) which means it's about halfway through. But-- these bumps have a "long tail," especially going into the holiday shopping season. We can expect a page like this to yield significant traffic dividends over the next 80-odd days.

So.... yeah. [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]]. Big blinking neon sign in the analytics. We should make this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:I heartily concur, my good man. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Tf2009-rotfdvdfieldguide.jpg|right|600px]]
::Well don't look at me! I have no idea how many versions exist! Here, whoever wants to block it in can use this image. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Thirteen

2009-10-22T10:36:31Z

76.28.72.27: added Hasbro description that sounds suspiciously like an advertising blurb

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers, the first "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]" and "the Original Epic Warriors of Cybertron." Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]
*Unnamed Female Warrior, mentioned by Hasbro as central to their upcomming "13" story plans.

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave Comics===
===Cybertron Comic===
{{stub}}
===Cybertron Cartoon===
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing's set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of [[BotCon]] 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it's become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallize the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

* ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along—but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

* In an answer in [[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|October 2009's Q&A]] Hasbro indicated that only seven of the 13 were Primes. These seven were hinted at as being the seven Primes featured in the film version of ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''. How that relates to the claim in fiction that all 13 were Primes is not yet known.

*At least one of the Thirteen is female, and a warrior at that. <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009: Answers]]</ref>

*In Hasbro Q&A on October, 2009 from [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609 ''The Allspark Forum''], The Thirteen is refered as "Original Epic Warriors of Cybertron" by Hasbro.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Transformers: The Thirteen

2009-10-22T10:13:06Z

76.28.72.27: Updated to reflect Q and A reveals

{{disambig2|the cancelled [[IDW Publishing]] comic|the group this comic would be about|thirteen original Transformers}}

'''''Transformers: The Thirteen''''' was a planned comics series to be published by [[IDW Publishing]], which was to have been written by [[Simon Furman]] with art by [[Nick Roche]], focusing on the [[thirteen original Transformers]].

At the [[BotCon 2009]] IDW panel, however, it was announced that the project was "off the schedule" for the foreseeable future, and may never see release.

==Items of note==
* Hasbro had become highly involved in this since it was pitched, and Furman stated a lot of effort was being put in to ensure it was "something that comprehensively underpins the whole TF-universe in a very major and enduring way"<ref>[http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032 Furman Q&A from December 2008]</ref>.

* The series was "shuffled" back a few times before being effectively cancelled, for reasons which included the twin pressures of the second live-action film and the 25th Anniversary in 2009. When originally pitched, the intended artist was [[Nick Roche]] ("and may well be again, who knows")<ref>[http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032 Furman Q&A from December 2008]</ref>.

* In October 2009 Hasbro revealed in Q&A answers that they have worked out at least some definate plans for the story of the 13 and plan to tell the story of these "Original Epic Warriors of Cybertron" at some point soon. Whether that will be in the form of an IDW comic or something else is yet unknown.

==References==
<references />

[[Category:IDW titles]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Things that don't exist]]

Thirteen

2009-10-22T10:02:39Z

76.28.72.27: /* The thirteen */ minor

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers and all "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]". Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]
*Unnamed Female Warrior, mentioned by Hasbro as central to their upcomming "13" story plans.

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave Comics===
===Cybertron Comic===
{{stub}}
===Cybertron Cartoon===
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing's set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of [[BotCon]] 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it's become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallize the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

* ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along—but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

* In an answer in [[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|October 2009's Q&A]] Hasbro indicated that only seven of the 13 were Primes. These seven were hinted at as being the seven Primes featured in the film version of ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''. How that relates to the claim in fiction that all 13 were Primes is not yet known.

*At least one of the Thirteen is female, and a warrior at that. <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009: Answers]]</ref>

*In Hasbro Q&A on October, 2009 from [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609 ''The Allspark Forum''], The Thirteen is refered as "Original Epic Warriors of Cybertron" by Hasbro.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Thirteen

2009-10-22T10:01:50Z

76.28.72.27: Mazel tov! It's a Girl!

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers and all "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]". Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
***[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
***[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
***[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
***[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
***[[Heatwave]]
*Unnamed Female Warrior, mentioned by Hasbro as central to their upcomming "13" story plans.
'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave Comics===
===Cybertron Comic===
{{stub}}
===Cybertron Cartoon===
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==
* IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing's set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of [[BotCon]] 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it's become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallize the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

* ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along—but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

* In an answer in [[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|October 2009's Q&A]] Hasbro indicated that only seven of the 13 were Primes. These seven were hinted at as being the seven Primes featured in the film version of ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]''. How that relates to the claim in fiction that all 13 were Primes is not yet known.

*At least one of the Thirteen is female, and a warrior at that. <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009: Answers]]</ref>

*In Hasbro Q&A on October, 2009 from [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63609 ''The Allspark Forum''], The Thirteen is refered as "Original Epic Warriors of Cybertron" by Hasbro.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Talk:Thirteen

2009-10-22T02:48:26Z

76.28.72.27: /* So They're not all Primes! */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;">
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. '''Each of us designated a ''Prime''''' and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}
</blockquote>

::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

::::I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that [[Forest Lee]] is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Prime (rank)

2009-10-22T02:42:58Z

76.28.72.27: That's missleading, this way is more accurate to current "official decree"

{{quote|We are Primus. We are Prima. We are Prime Nova. We are Sentinel Prime. We are Optimus Prime.}}
'''Prime''' is a rank of highest distinction in many [[Transformers]] continuities. Typically, it is used as the identification for the leader of the [[Autobot]]s, something that is bestowed only on those that carry the [[Matrix of Leadership]] within them. It is [[Retcon|retroactively]] derived from [[Primus]], the creator of the Transformers.

With the retcon that Primus is one singular entity that exists (and '''must''' exist) threaded through all Transformer continuities, the term Prime is likewise given one singular origin. It was, first of all, the designation granted by Primus to seven of the [[Thirteen original Transformers]] created, by his own hand, at the dawn of the physical universe to crew his planetary form.

:''Japanese equivalent:'' '''[[Convoy]]'''

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comic continuity===
The idea of Prime being a title/rank has its first, fullest expression here. A direct lineage of Creation Matrix bearers is established, each taking on a derivation of the name of their god Primus. They are [[Prima]], [[Prime Nova]], [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]], [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], and [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]].

{{note|A later [[Simon Furman]] story drawing on this lineage he himself created added [[Primon]] to the beginning of this list. Of note is that the name Prime has no real necessary relation to Autobot leadership here. Optimus Prime becomes a Prime long before he becomes the overall Autobot Commander. Rather, Prime is a religious title (as the Creation Matrix is a religious artifact: a relic of their god). The closest human analogue to a Prime might be the Pope. }}

===Cartoon continuity===
The evidence for "Prime" being a rank here is weaker than elsewhere, but the case can still be made. Though many Matrix-Bearers are seen, and all are by definition Autobot Leaders, only four are ever named; 2 Primes, 2 not: [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], Optimus Prime, [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], and Rodimus Prime. Without knowing any other names it is hard to make a concrete case here for "Prime" being a title given only to Matrix-Bearers.

It is of note though that if it were, then "Prime" in this continuity would be a military/political title (since it is the ''Matrix of Leadership''), rather than the religious title of the Marvel Comics.

{{note|Not all Convoys are Primes (and vice-versa). If you can lead [[Ant-droid]]s to a picnic, you're a Convoy in Japan.}}

===Beast Wars continuity===
It's only passingly touched on, but may be noteworthy that the phrase, "Who died and made you Prime?" was used by [[Maximal]] characters in ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]],'' implying that, to them, "prime" was roughly equivalent to "leader". They also used the word to mean "great" or "good" in the phrases "That's just prime," (said sarcastically), and "Feeling prime."

===Dreamwave continuity===
This continuity also establishes Prime as designating the leader of the Autobots, but there is some muddled information. The Prime carried within him the Matrix of Leadership, but it appears that the Matrix doesn't contain the wisdom of past leaders, as that was held on a [[Golden Disk (council)|separate datatrak]]. Also, the Prime did not appoint his successor. A new Prime was chosen by the [[Council of Ancients]], supposedly through divine authority.

It's unknown what powers the Prime shared with the [[High Council]] and the Council of Ancients, but the Prime had several powers. In addition to being commander-in-chief of the Autobot Army, the Prime also had the authority to order a planet wide evacuation. Autobots gave oaths of loyalty to the Prime, and were expected to risk their lives for the Prime's safety (whether the Prime wanted them to or not). {{storylink|The War Within}}

There are five known Primes in Dreamwave continuity, listed in MTMTE #8. These are Alpha Prime, Guardian Prime, Sentinel Prime, Optimus Prime and Rodimus Prime. The list does not specify chronology, and Rodimus Prime never appeared in any actual Dreamwave comics.

===Armada/Energon/Cybertron continuity===
Prime is indeed a title given to leaders and matrix bearers here, as evidenced by both Vector Prime and Optimus Prime, but no other Primes are ever named.

===IDW Comics continuity===
[[Image:Primes IDW.JPG|right|150px|thumb|[[To sell toys|Get on it, Hasbro!]]]]
Optimus Prime describes Primes as beings that define the eras they ruled. Thus, Nova Prime presided over an era in which the populace believed the Cybertronian race's destiny was in the stars, and commissioned the first [[Ark (G1)|''Ark'' spacecraft]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}} Although certainly a matrix-bearer, as confirmed by Optimus and Galvatron, Nova Prime disappeared into the [[Benzuli Expanse]] while aboard the ''Ark'', with the Matrix guiding him into the [[Dead Universe]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Galvatron}}

Before the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], Sentinel Prime served as the head of the Autobot Security Services, the chief law enforcement and military body on Cybertron. However, he stresses that he is ultimately subservient to the will of the [[Senate]] who enact the laws he enforces. {{storylink|Megatron Origin issue 3}}

After Cybertron is rendered uninhabitable, Optimus Prime is the apparent highest ranking Autobot, directing the galaxy-spanning conflict to deny the Decepticons conquest of additional planets. In this task, he occasionally seeks the guidance of the ancient Autobot and weapon of last resort [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]].

There appear to be at least four Primes predating Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}}

There seems to be an Autobot who held the rank of "Prime" between Sentinel and Optimus in the IDW continuity. During an early skirmish during the opening days of the Great War, a pre-Prime Optimus and Blurr discuss a plan to rescue the Autobot commander [[Zeta Prime]]. It can be assumed that this "new" Prime was "sworn in" following Sentinel Prime's death in Megatron: Origins (LBJ style), before ultimately dying himself, passing the "Prime" mantle onto Optimus. {{storylink|Spotlight: Blurr}}

===Movie continuity===
{{main|Dynasty of Primes}}

{{note|The following has been [[retcon]]ned during the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]] phase of the film series.}}
The title of Prime was bestowed upon the civilian and spiritual leader of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] but at the same time, aided the [[Lord High Protector]] in stewarding the [[All Spark]] just as the Lord High Protector was co-ruler. Optimus Prime held this title before, during and after the war for the All Spark as leader of the [[Autobot]]s. {{storylink|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

According to The Quest For the ALLSPARK paperback's opening paragraph, "...Most revered were Optimus and Megatron. They were twin brothers of the Prime dynasty."
This, along with the note from the Autobots version of the same DS game that Megatron "took the spark" of his and Optimus' father, implies that “Prime” may have been their father’s name and that Megatron may have also had the surname "Prime" as well.

===Transformers Animated===
Prime is still a rank in this continuity, but surprisingly one far lower than commander of all the Autobots ([[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] - the "[[Magnus]]" refers to his rank). This is revealed when [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] attempts to give an order to [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]. Optimus is able to disregard this order because regardless of Sentinel's standing on the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]], they are both still of equal rank, Primes. {{storylink|The Elite Guard}} Both Ultra Magnus and Sentinel Prime have bars on their forearms, with more bars present for the superior officer. Optimus Prime lacks these, and as such it is unknown if they are only present in the Elite Guard. The Rank of Prime seems to be equivalent to the human Naval rank of Captain in this continuity.

In addition to Optimus and Sentinel, there is also [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm Prime]]. Longarm was presumably given the rank as head of [[Cybertron Intelligence]], although his predecessor [[Highbrow (Animated)|Highbrow]] was never referred to as a Prime.

===Fun Publications fan club comics===
[[Image:Clubcombinercarving.jpg|right|150px|thumb|A component of the Prime of Rarified Energon looks at a portrait of his complete self...]]
It is revealed that the first [[Thirteen original Transformers]] created by Primus to crew his planetary form were all designated Primes. In addition to this designation, each was given a specific task or role in sustaining the multiverse.

[[Vector Prime]] was granted guardianship of space-time. The Prime who would become [[The Fallen]] was charged to oversee the force of entropy. [[Nexus Maximus|Another of these Primes]] was made the guardian of [[Rarified Energon]]. Of the known members of the Thirteen, only Prima's function is still unknown.

These Primes are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] (like their creator, only one version of each existing across all realities).
{{-}}

===Shattered Glass===
The title of Prime is not an honorary rank but the title of the diabolical leader of the Autobots. [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]] stands as the current Prime. For now. [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]], [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|Ultra Magnus]] or [[Thunderclash (SG)|Thunderclash]] may very well usurp the title and position in the future.

==See also==
*[[Autobot commander (disambiguation)|Autobot Commander]]
*[[Supreme Commander]]
*[[Convoy]]
*[[Magnus]]

[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Movie]]
[[Category:Ranks]]
[[Category:Religion]]
[[Category:Transformer culture]]

Prime (rank)

2009-10-22T01:00:51Z

76.28.72.27: again, retcon recognition

Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:59:35Z

76.28.72.27: /* Fiction */

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers. Seven of them were "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]" <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|Hasbro Q&A/October 2009 (AllSpark.com)]]</ref> ''(For how that works in relation to the quote above, see the "Trivia" note below).'' Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave Comics===
===Cybertron Comic===
{{stub}}
===Cybertron Cartoon===
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==

*Originaly all 13 of the original Transformers were said to be Primes, see the quote at the start of this article. However when the Rise of the Fallen movie material decided that the original Dynasty of Primes only numbered seven a retcon was applied. Now it turns out that while they were all "Epic Warriors" only Seven were actually named Primes, and the othe six were not. Maybe Vector Primes memory was just fuzzy after so long? (Wouldn't be the first time that happened to a TF, and over much shorter periods)

*IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing’s set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of Botcon 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it’s become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallise the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

*[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along--but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Talk:Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:52:10Z

76.28.72.27: /* So They're not all Primes! */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

------------------------------------
Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
------------------------------------
As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--[[Special:Contributions/71.235.138.121|71.235.138.121]] 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

==Split 7 Primes from the 13==

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 [[User: Eire|Eire]] 23.58 June 23 09
: Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
::but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best [[User:Eire]] 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the [[Dynasty of Primes]], and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

== So They're not all Primes! ==

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:47:21Z

76.28.72.27: Still reconciling article with retcon

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers. Seven of them were "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]" <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|Hasbro Q&A/October 2009 (AllSpark.com)]]</ref> ''(For how that works in relation to the quote above, see the "Trivia" note below).'' Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==

*Originaly all 13 of the original Transformers were said to be Primes, see the quote at the start of this article. However when the Rise of the Fallen movie material decided that the original Dynasty of Primes only numbered seven a retcon was applied. Now it turns out that while they were all "Epic Warriors" only Seven were actually named Primes, and the othe six were not. Maybe Vector Primes memory was just fuzzy after so long? (Wouldn't be the first time that happened to a TF, and over much shorter periods)

*IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing’s set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of Botcon 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it’s become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallise the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

*[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along--but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:43:40Z

76.28.72.27: Attempted to explain retcon

{{disambig2|the group of ancient Transformers |the comic series that might never be published|Transformers: The Thirteen}}
[[Image:Original13.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Guess the one on fire!]]
{{quote|We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.|Vector Prime|"[[Vector Prime: In the Beginning]]"}}

When [[Primus]] first created [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], he created a crew of '''thirteen living robotic beings''' to man him. These beings, in imitation of [[Unicron]]'s transformation abilities, were able to change their forms into the likeness of vehicles, weapons, and machinery. They were the first Transformers. Seven of them were "[[Prime (rank)|Primes]]" <ref>[[Hasbro Q&A/October 2009#AllSpark.com|Hasbro Q&A/October 2009 (AllSpark.com)]]</ref> ''(For how that works in relation to the quote above, see the "Trivia" note below).'' Many of the thirteen died in a cataclysmic first battle with Unicron, where he was sucked down into a black hole and trapped along with his acolyte known as [[The Fallen]], one of the thirteen who had turned against his brothers and joined Unicron. Of those that survived, many abandoned their original functions and were lost to time. Only [[Vector Prime]] was known to still be following the path he was set upon by Primus.

==The thirteen==
[[Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Vector Prime steps forward from the First Thirteen Tabernacle Choir with a heartfelt solo.]]
The identities of most of the thirteen remain shrouded in mystery.

'''Confirmed members are:'''
*[[Prima]], the first [[Matrix|Matrix-bearer]] and first Transformer born from Cybertron, leader of the 13.<ref>''Sentinel Prime was one of a dynasty of Primes, stretching back to the original '''13 Transformers''' and their leader, Prima.'' — ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' (2005) 1st ed p15, "Sentinel Prime"</ref>
*"[[The Fallen]]" (original name unknown), the guardian of entropy.
*[[Vector Prime]], the guardian of space and time.
*Logos Prime, also known as [[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Soundblaster]]. The ''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story establishes Soundblaster as an "[[Ancients|Ancient]]", equal with Vector Prime. There is also a silhouette resembling him in the image from the ''[[World of Transformers]]'' web site, found at the top of this article.
*[[Nexus Prime]], the guardian of the multiverse's [[Rarified Energon]], capable of splitting into 5 smaller robots:
**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
**[[Heatwave]]

'''Possible members are:'''
*The [[Liege Maximo]]; he was confirmed in [[Simon Furman]]'s "[[Alignment]]" story as one of the first thirteen, but that story was "unofficial" and of debatable canonicity.
*[[Maccadam]]; rumor on Cybertron says that he is one of the thirteen and that his bar exists outside regular space-time, linking all realities, though sometimes this rumor is chalked up to the imaginations of the bar's drunken patrons. The story "[[Prime Spark]]" from the ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' anthology confirms half of this rumor, portraying the bar as a multiversal nexus of sorts, though not making any specific revelations about Maccadam himself. The anthology labels all its stories as not being part of mainstream continuity, so its revelations [[author intent|could be viewed]] as irrelevant.
*The [[Last Autobot]]; according to the words he spoke "Since Cybertron's Creation, I have slumbered within the planet, awaiting a time long foreseen by your creator, Primus", it can be inferred that he might be one of the thirteen.
*[[Seven Primes]]; due to the limited number of currently confirmed members, it is possible that the other 6 of the Seven Primes may in-fact represent either already confirmed members of the original thirteen, or may in-fact be the missing members of the thirteen themselves. The fact that the Fallen from the movie-verse is said at Botcon 2009 to somehow (we don't know how) be the same as the Fallen in the DW-verse makes this a 'slight' possibility.

Numerous other very ancient Transformers exist—[[Boltax (G1)|Boltax]], steward of the [[Underbase]], and the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], protector of the slumbering Primus—but none have been included in the ranks of the thirteen.

==Functions==
Aside from their base functions as "crew" for Primus's planet form and their duty to battle Unicron, the quote above hints that each was given another charge. Three of the four known members of the thirteen were also charged with protecting specific aspects of the multiverse. It is possible, but unconfirmed, that each of the other ten might also have originally had an assigned role as guardian to some aspect of reality.

Vector Prime was tasked with overseeing the space and time continuum. The Prime who would eventually become the Fallen was tasked with overseeing the process of entropy. Nexus Prime was tasked with overseeing the [[multiverse]]'s Rarified Energon.

==Multiversal singularities==
The original thirteen are [[Multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]] like Primus and Unicron, with only one of each of them existing throughout the whole multiverse. Though they may pass from universe to universe, it is one quantum individual doing so, and they possess no alternate-reality counterparts as normal beings do. For further details on how this weird little mind-bender works, see that article.

==Live-action movie franchise==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|150px|The Thirteen being created.]]
A race of beings that included the Fallen were the first creations of the [[All Spark]]. They were extremely powerful and able to travel across dimensions. The Allspark then created the [[Transformer]]s to seek out stars that could replenish itself. With their descendants, they formed the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the All Spark. The Fallen decided he wanted the Allspark's power for himself, and so slew the rest of his brothers...but they trapped him within a sarcophagus in the process. A long time passed, and he was eventually dug up. From his prison, he then pushed [[Megatron (Movie)|High Protector Megatron]] into forming the Decepticons. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4}}

===DK Transformers: The Movie Universe book===
The All Spark created "the Primes". One of their number, however, fought the other twelve as he prepared to harvest the power of [[Earth]]'s sun. In the end, he slaughtered all of his brethren, but they were still able to imprison this Fallen being in a pocket dimension and save the Earth. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|The Movie Universe}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen''===
{{note|The ROTF adaptations have thirteen Primes. While designs were made for twelve non-Fallen Prime heads, the finished film shows only seven Primes.}}
::''See [[Dynasty of Primes]]''

===Titan Magazines ''Revenge of the Fallen'' comic===

Legend has it that [[Primus]] created the first seven Transformers, known as "the Primes", though they believe themselves creations of the All Spark. (So... who started the legend?) {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|The Fallen Profile}}

{{-}}

==Trivia==

*Originaly all 13 of the original Transformers were said to be Primes, see the quote at the start of this article. However when the Rise of the Fallen movie material decided that the original Dynasty of Primes only numbered seven a retcon was applied. Now it turns out that while they were all "Epic Warriors" only Seven were actually named Primes, and the othe six were not. Maybe Vector Primes memory was just fuzzy after so long?
*IDW comics talked repeatedly about a planned/potential miniseries telling the story of the Thirteen. What similarity this new telling would have to the previous original thirteen stories is unknown. Hasbro became quite involved, and Simon Furman stated that it "seems pretty likely that Vector Prime will be amongst the 13, the Liege Maximo too, and possibly Alpha Trion. But nothing’s set in stone here yet." [http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=5032] No release date for this series was ever set. As of Botcon 09, IDW says this series is off their publishing schedule. In an interview, Furman said it's "probably not going to happen for a while, as it’s become more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing, and Hasbro need to crystallise the whole concept before it can be turned into a comic book". [http://hombreimaginario.deviantart.com/art/Interviews-10-Simon-Furman-130246343]

*[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] specifically asserts that all of the original 13 Transformers were destroyed in the early battle between Primus and Unicron. In and of itself this statement cannot be accurate, since the same book later recounted how the Fallen was not destroyed but exiled to a transdimensional prison from which he later escaped. When the book was published, in 2004, it would have been hypothetically possible to assert that the other 12 members had been dead all along--but subsequent canon has indisputably established their survival.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Primus]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]
[[Category:Thirteen original Transformers| ]]

Talk:Thirteen

2009-10-22T00:35:45Z

76.28.72.27: /* So They're not all Primes! */ new section

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-10-21T15:32:33Z

76.28.72.27: /* A potential solution */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Marvel UK issue pages ==

I feel that we need to make a change with how we handle Marvel UK comic issues. The UK comics split most of its stories up over multiple issues, and even reprinted some of the split up in a ''different'' way. This has led the story articles to become bloated with non-story info (covers, letter pages, other comics from the same issue, contests, ads) for multiple issues on a single story page. Also, navigating the UK comic is a pain in the ass, as many issues having two stories (one issue has ''three''!), as well as the reprints.

Here's what I suggest we do:

* '''Make "hub" pages for the individual issues.''' These pages will cover issue-specific things. Those UK cover scans clogging up every Marvel Transformer story? They go here. As does information from that issue's letter pages, ads, TransFormations, and anything else that isn't a part of the actual stories. Also, there will be a list of what each issue contains, mostly the TOC from the issue itself. Non-Transformers backup strips (Machine Man, Action Force) should need nothing more beyond the name of the series and the title of the story unless more info is given in the cover, letters page, TransFormations, Coming Attractions or the like. The TOC will also have links to our story articles.

*'''Leave the story articles mostly unchanged''' The UK comic usually treated the stories like serials (think the early Flash Gotdon films or the original Doctor Who series), so splitting them up makes no sense. Aside from moving the issue-specific stuff to the hub pages, the only changes needed will be removing the story navigation box from the UK-original stories, removal of the UK navigation from the stories written for the US comic, and adding any needed "Reprinted in" links, and putting "Originally printed in" links on the stories written for the UK comic.

Marvel US 33 & 34 (Man of Iron!) and Action Force 24-27 (Ancient Relics!) would be handled in the same way. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:40, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:So you're suggesting that ''any'' issue which contained multiple discontinuous stories get a page for the issue, and a page for both stories? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:37, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:: Not exactly. Marvel UK is a special case because these multiple discontinuous stories are broken up over multiple issues. We would still have one page for Time Wars. I'll put together a sample tommorow. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:51, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::I have a ''very'' rough example at [[User:FortMax/Sandbox]]. The main reason I feel this needs to be done is because not only does the UK comic non only have multiple stories in each issue, these stories get spread out over multiple issues. For example, [[Time Wars]] was printed over seven issues. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 12:04, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::That makes sense... a 'landing page.' I'm tentatively in favor of it... but I'd like to see what others say. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:40, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::::I think this is a really good idea, because it enables us to show the very different format of the UK comic. Formats, in fact - something I didn't realise till I completed my collection is how ''very'' different the first 30 or so issues are from the rest. More like a robot enthusiast's magazine than a comic, and much more 'British' in feel. Unfortunately I've only got my scanned copies of issues 1-5 to work from at the moment, but I can mock something up to show you what I mean. --[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 06:25, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::I've never been overly happy that a big, "blockbuster-that-changes-everything" story like Target: 2006 or The Legacy of Unicron only gets one issue, whereas, say, the issues leading up to US #75 get a page each. There's examples of serial storytelling and individual-issue focuses (eg, Prime surrendering, or the introduction of the Wreckers) in each. [[User:LiamK|LiamK]] 09:25, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've done a fair bit across the UK comics lately and I'd be hugely in favour of breaking T:2006 (especially) into its component issues - just because they weren't individually named they get lumped together in one article which I think does a great disservice to the story. I'd compare it to a six-issue series like Devastation which gets six pages labelled issue 1, issue 2 and so forth, so I don't think articles called Target: 2006 issue 1, Target: 2006 issue 2 etc. would necessarily be beyond the pale. I don't know how far I'd want to take it though - splitting up stories like City of Fear or Legion of the Lost seems a bit pointless, more so The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire which wasn't meant to be split in the first place. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm in favour. I also think that a standard link to the appropriate letters page on transfans.net (similar to the way we do tfu.info for toys) wouldn't go amiss. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

::::I'm also in favour. This is the approach I took on Joepedia for the weekly Action Force comics where there are similar problems - see [http://gijoe.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Force_%28weekly%29] for how it works on the individual issues. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 07:59, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
:If you are taking the navigation off the stories, won't that make it more difficult to click through the UK continuity, from one story to the next one, continuity-wise? Then again, I'm not super familiar with the UK comics, maybe it is so complicated that that feature is basically broken as it is. But if the current story-based nav works I'd like to keep that as well as a issue-to-issue nav. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:39, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

==Can the nav-template images be variables?==
For example: The [[:Template:Nav-henkei|''Henkei! Henkei!'' nav-template]] uses the logo from the toy packaging, since that applies to the majority of the pages the template is on. However, the [[Henkei! Henkei! (Comic Bun Bun)|Comic Bun Bun ''Henkei!'' material]]
uses a completely different logo design, and it would be nice to be able to substitute it for just that page. This is one of several times I've wanted to be able to do that, and maybe there's a simple way to designate the image as a replaceable variable, but my markup-fu is weak. Any help is appreciated. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:35, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:<s>The answer seems to be "no"... for some reason, even with a default set in the parameter, the imagemap code refuses to parse the parameter's info.</s>
:<s>You could always just post the entire code of the navigation template manually on that one page with the logo code swapped...</s> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:NM, I figured it out. You should be able to do this now:
:<nowiki>{{nav-henkei|logo=(filename)|size=(number)(unit)}}</nowiki>
:It's set up so that if the parameters aren't given, it'll just display the default, so you don't need to change the pages that do use the typical logo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::Awesooooooooome, thank you. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:32, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:::No problem. :) Let me know if you need any of the other navs altered, although you should be able to just copy and paste the code and change the defaults... (actually, with my [[User:Jeysie/FranchiseNavs|idea for a code revamp]], I wonder if it might be possible to just have one nav template with all variables...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Hmm, I didn't know you were playing around with franchise-nav revisions. I actually have a grand proposal cooking up in my head for a full breadcrumb-trail nav revamp that would be applicable to basically any non-character/item/place article. The idea being that if you're at, say, an article about a comic issue, there would be a nav in the corner with links to the series, franchise, and continuity family going up in a column. And if you're at a series-article, you would be one step up in that chain, and the nav would have links to all the other series in that franchise (presented in the current style), as well as the vertically-arranged "title" links to the franchise and continuity family. Then if you're at a franchise, you get links to the other franchises in that continuity family, plus the continuity family itself. And, finally, the continuity-family articles themselves would have a nav with links to the other families. It would be a change in functionality to the effect that the cluster of little links would always be lateral, and digging down into more specific topics would require links within the articles themselves. Currently that's the case with most articles, the exception being franchises. But I think it would be incredibly awesome to have that kind of breadcrumb-trail so a reader always knows where he or she is in the multiverse at large. Plus it would help clarify how the hierarchy of families and franchises and series and so on actually works in specific cases, since that's often been a source of confusion and argument.
::::But I figure I should cobble together a working sample of some sort before I formally present the idea, and I think I might need some more markup-fu before that's even possible. Or I could make a facsimile in Flash or something... Anyway, at the very least, I think having the ability to swap out the logo image is actually a step towards making this idea happen. So thanks again!
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, my current idea was mainly just trying to simplify the existing coding a little, as well as adding some prev/next links to the continuity family section. I think the big problem with breadcrumb links is that people would have to put them in by hand, which would make filling in comic stories even more work than it already is. The "continuity family" section of the comicnav template already tends to be pretty inconsistent sometimes depending on how the person creating the page chooses to link it. (In other words, it's a nice idea, but it'd be too contingent on people filling it in correctly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:41, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The episode nav template uses standard strings to identify continuities (like "g1toon") and then uses look-up tables to find the proper series page link for this, the proper "human-readable" for that link and even look up how many episodes there are in the series, and create automatic prev/next links as long as you give it an episode number.
:::::::The reason we use strings instead of pagenames is '''1)''' they're shorter, simpler, cleaner, more standardized... '''2)''' it means that if the page moves (or we change our mind on the naming convention) we only have to change it in ''one place'' in the lookup tables, and the link changes on hundreds of pages.
:::::::What I'm saying is... you DON'T need to force users to fill in series/franchise/family. ...just fill in the SERIES. Let the template fill in the rest! (And let you manually override the lookup if you explicitly provide variables, for maximum flexability.)
:::::::But that's not a system you can throw together by trial and error; it needs proper architecture planning or it'll be a godawful mess.
:::::::I guess what I'm saying is... if we really want to rationalize and standardize the major templates on the wiki... we need a serious meta-talk about what that means, in the broadest possible scope. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, the problem is... I agree it'd be pretty easy to auto-breadcrumb the TV series. But when you start getting into things like the comics and text stories, you start running into many different miniseries and individual issues, all of which fit into different continuities. I think the continuity family is already enough info for those, provided we make sure they all point to the right ones. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:48, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::That's not exactly a 'problem' as it's conventionally thought of. You could set up auto-fill-ins for the 6 most commons comics-- which would cover 70-80% of everything, but let manual values be set for the rest (or not set) to the level of detail you desire. No solution has to be 100% you know. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:05, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::No, but for stuff like the Marvel Comics it would take just as long to copy and paste in manual info as it would to paste in the new code, after all. So it's the new pages where people would have one more thing to add in that you'd really need to worry about, if it's part of that other 20%. Whereas I agree that new TV series episodes would get to have the benefit of auto-ness.
::::::::::I guess it just seems like a lot of work for little benefit, seeing as how the continuity part of the nav pretty much covers all the context necessary. Not that I don't think it's possible the ep/comicnav could use some overhaul (though what exactly I don't know; they both seem pretty complete to me), just that I don't think breadcrumbs would be an effective expenditure of time. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:43, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::::::::I'm pretty much in agreement with that last sentiment, which is one of the reasons why I'm not technically proposing my idea yet. It needs a more concrete starting point (like a mock-up design) from which all the discussion and probably argument can branch. I have my own notions about how it could be set up in a way that wouldn't involve as much work or personal discretion as Jeysie suggests, but... well, now's not the time. Maybe later. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:12, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::So what needs revision? The episode templates-- fine. And the comic issues. And the franchise navigation. And a standard breadcrumbing system... but what else? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:17, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I've noticed on the Marvel wiki that the "writer"/"artist" text in their issue infoboxes links to [[:Category: Writers]]. I'd liek us ot consider adding this. (Also, there's something about the size or spacing of their infoboxes I just ''like''... I think we might want to take a look at 'em when we get around to recoding.)

::::::Derik points out that in such a scenario, the breakcrumb need not be built into (for example) the episode infobox template. The more elegant solutions is something like:
<pre><nowiki> {{episode
|breadcrumb= {{breadcrumb
|continuity_family=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
|franchise=[[Armada (franchise)|]]
|series=[[Armada (cartoon)|cartoon]]
}}
}}</nowiki></pre>
::::::...where you'd be pass the whole breadcrumb template as a parameter to another template. That way if the breadcrumb also has to show up in other templates... there's a standard code, standard styling, etc. Cleaner simpler code, easier to maintain, more universal, easier to work with, less percussive maintenence, etc.
::::::That's not a solution to everything though, because we've got two prev/next/series navs for comics, and some of the Marvel issues could use ''four'' or more. Stacking 4 of those things is retarded, and pointless. We need a more rational means of addressing republished stuff. I went to look up when a certain Marvel UK issue was published the other day and we '''didn't have the information'''. ...because it was published in the US first, and our template only has one "pub date" field. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::Sankyuu! Henkei needs a bit more love. :D --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 22:59, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

===CSS rationalization===
While discussing rewriting our HTML... we should also probably discuss CSS rationalization.

Right now our code has absolutely no regard for what the page looks like printed. (Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed.) Do we want our links to have addresses when printed? For example, I believe CSS could make [[Optimus Prime (G1)|this link]] print like this link ("Optimue Prime (G1)") or like this link ( http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ) or like this link ( tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ), any of which would be 'friendlier' for printed-out versions.

Of course, if this was applied to excessively [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PotHole PotHole'd] articles, the text it might become almost unreadable. Perhaps smaller or faded text would make tooting my own horn User:Derik less obtrusive when printed. Regardless what's decided for article text, I strongly believe that ''storylinks'' should have the disambig visible when printing. King of the Hill (Armada episode)

Printing, I grant you, is a fairly minor concern. But what about syndication? A few people are beginning to [http://www.botchthecrab.com/archive/history.asp dynamically syndicate] our content. Botch went to some trouble to remove our messageboxes and various other elements-- he just wanted the guts of the article. If we'd attached standard classes to templates (ones that have '''no CSS''' associated with them as far as TFWiki is concerned) he could have just syndicated the page as-is and hidden those elements with a few lines of CSS! (If nothing else, the storylinks need a class marking them... that seems like something that many would like to hide.)

Live page syndication is clumsy. (And I need to yell at Botch, because IIRC he's doing his in a terrible way, from our server's perspective.) But if we ''encourage'' it, it's another tool in our promotional quiver! (There was a PHP script I was working on the other month that actually has some ''fairly good'' TFWiki-specific syndication. If that was polished and made easy to use, it could have some legs.)

Soto-voice snark aside-- we really need classed like ''.noPrint'' and ''.printOnly.'' And when we redo our episode/issue infoboxes... the tables should be tested to they print nicely, '''and''' we should publish the CSS people can use to turn various 'bits off. (Or a 'general guide to site CSS', if only for our OWN use.)

How about this...? We've been moving a LOT of our code out of HTML and into CSS. One of the effects of this is that simply syndicating [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Package_art&action=render the "rendered" page]... a lot of the HTML layouts are gobbeltygook. Should we have a consideration for syndicators who don't include our CSS file? Maybe templates we know are unlikely to be wanted can be flagged with a ''.noSyndicate'' class, making it easy to hide them? Or we should have a Syndicate.css file that includes the bare-minimum CSS code for templates to lay out right? Should ''some'' templates (<nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki>, for instance) be rewritten so that they will render in a readable (if not ideal) fashion even if no css is included? Is there a "scale" these questions all fall on... a sort of "how important is this element to the content of the page?" spectum, where at the low end we don't care and tell people to hide it, at the middle we provide identifying tags so they can be hidden, or a truncated CSS file so they render nice, and at the high end we write the HTML so the element will always be readable even without CSS to make it pretty? (That last one means code that's less contextual. Where do our priorities lie?)

These are philosophical issues. None are especially high priority, but the "cost" of addressing them is relatively tiny, so if we're doing some thorough redesigning... it'd be a good idea.

Some elements we have (like main pages) sometimes get quite "big" (laid out in a fashion that accepts a minimum of 500+ pixels wide.) Is it worth adding a ''.bigElement'' class or a ''.mobile'' class so that those elements can have code written in a mobile device CSS file that reduces their size? Is this even a concern for new mobile devices, which scale easily? How to Kindles handle them? Do e-readers support javascript? What about tablets and wireless internet devices?

More and more, content on the internet is going to be viewed by something other than what we normally think of as a "web browser," and because web-''developers'' spend all their time in web browsers they often neglect these outlets. We do not have to bend over backward to accommodate these technologies... if problems do arise, they will probably be the 90/10 sort; 90% of the solution/benefit can be accomplished with just 10% of the effort. '''Example:''' When [http://tformers.com a certain news site] rolled out their home page redesign several years ago, it mis-rendered on some versions of Safari-- pushing the story content below the left navigation bar. In short... the page appeared '''blank'''. This problem remained unfixed for almost a year-- it was caused by the nav rendering just ''one'' pixel too wide, pushing a floated layout down. This remained unfixed for almost a year. I'm sure that this bug only affected maybe 1% of site visitors. But after a year of blank pages... that 1% also probably '''stopped visiting'''. 1% over the course of a year is a ''lot'' of lost pageviews, it's like having your site be down for 3 days.

Anyway... that's my rant. There's no solutions there... just ideas/concerns/meta.

If other people are interested in discussing this sort of thing... may I suggest we create a dumping ground at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Quantum Cycle Upgrade]] where we can gather thoughts/issues about long-term infrastructure upgrades? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:35, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

:Picking up on just one thing for now:
::''Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed''
:Thing about that is that they DO contain information you might want when printed that isn't contained elsewhere on a page (the writer of a story, for instance).
:I could certainly see a certain degree of stripping down the messageboxen for printing as a good idea (take a look at http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=End_of_the_Road!_(US)&printable=yes - it's not even just the {{tl|comicstory}} [which has become a bad name for that template as its' uses have multiplied...] box - the {{tl|featuredcharacters}} box further down could do with being stripped for print. And I'm not sure the {{tl|disambig2}} needs to be visible at all.), but I'm not sure about hiding them by default. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:15, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
::I agree about stripping those kinds of things down... but when I said "messageboxes" I meant things like "picsneeded"; those have an ''enormous'' footprint, and they print. Their ''entire purpose'' is to alert editors of page deficiencies.... but people reading print-outs aren't editing those the pages, it's pointless. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:32, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah. I wasn't thinking of those, just {{tl|comicstory}} and {{tl|episode}}. Yeah, removing {{tl|picsneeded}} and its ilk would make sense. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:20, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

===Jeysie's infobox===
<div style="border:solid 2px #def;float:right;margin:0 1em 1em 1em;text-align:center;width:300px;">
'''Prisoner of War!'''
<div style="margin:1em .25em .5em .25em;">[[Image:MarvelUS-03.jpg|frameless|230px]] Is he strong? Listen, [[Bud]], he made Megatron go thud.</div>
{|cellspacing="0" style="margin:.5em 0;text-align:left;width:100%;"
|-
!colspan="2" style="background:#def;margin:0;padding:.5em 0;text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics]]
|-
!style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;"|Cover date
|style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;text-align:right;"|January 1985
|-
!style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;"|Street date
|style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;text-align:right;"|[[October 2]], 1984
|-
|colspan="2" style="text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics continuity]]
|}
{|style="background:#def;padding:.5em 0;width:100%;"
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #3
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)#Marvel UK|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #5–6
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|}
{|style="padding:.5em;text-align:right;width:100%;"
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Writer
|[[Jim Salicrup]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Penciler
|[[Frank Springer]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Inker
|[[Kim DeMulder]], [[Jim Esposito]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Colorist
|[[Nelson Yomtov]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Letterers
|[[Janice Chiang]] & Others
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Editor
|[[Bob Budiansky]]
|}
</div>
I remember doing this rough tweak idea based on Derik's comment that he liked the Marvel wiki's infobox.

Not very ''much'' of a tweak, admittedly, as I actually like our current setup for the most part. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:46, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Okay, some things:
:#{{tl|comicstory}} is used for a LOT more than, well, comic stories, to the point that the template name is bad. But unless you want to go and find/change all of those uses (and they're pretty diverse, I don't think you could bot them), it's pretty much impossible to change the broad layout of the template.
:#Moving the back/forward navigation from the top (where it's easily accessible) to a point where it would be ''below the fold'' on netbooks, e-readers and less up to date PCs? Are you seriously suggesting that?!
:Seriously, I don't "get" the ideas behind the layout here at all. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:00, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::They all use pretty much the same setup, actually, if you look at them. I can't think of any usage on text stories and books that is seriously different offhand... they have different credit/info types, yes, but they go visually in the same places. I would probably put things like page count and ISBN in the "publisher" box. 
::And like I said, I was emulating the Marvel wiki infobox, which actually has the navigation at the ''bottom''. But essentially... I wanted to get the title up top, and make a "publisher" section, and a "credits" section... and the navigation made a good visual divider between the last two sections. I agree it's kind of weird, though... I could see moving it back up to the top under the title and just having a thick border in its place between the bottom two sections.
::Like I said, it's pretty minor stuff... I think our infobox is just about perfect as-is, really. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:10, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

:::It's not just stories. The [[Hasbro Q&A]] pages use it. The Collectors' Club Magazine pages use it, along with other non-story content from magazines, etc. What's the "title" in those instances?
:::Moreover, why move the title to the top at all? The title is already written in big letters at the top of the page on a single-story page, or at the top of the section on multi-story pages. Below the cover is a good place for it.
:::And the cover date & street date are hanging in no-man's land here, with no association with any relevant information - it looks like ''Marvel Comics'' had a street date of Oct 2, 1984.- [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:37, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::We'd leave the title off. You know, just like we do for miniseries ''already''? Sheesh, I love it when people complain about something "new" without realizing the wiki already does it.</sarcasm>
::::That said, if we move the navigation back to the top, we could move the title back under the picture again. I guess it just seems to me like it's the "first" bit of info about a book, and you could use your comment as an argument towards leaving out the title bit entirely anyway.
::::I like my publisher idea, though... it separates the meta-info about the book from the credits. And the publisher's name makes the most logical sense to use in a section heading. Like you said, the title's at the top, so I have a hard time thinking anyone's going to think the street date has to do with the publisher's name instead of the issue the article's about. I like to assume basic intelligence on the part of the reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::Our existing comicstory template is already deficient in presenting multi-part stories: I went to look up when [[Target: 2006]] was published... and discovered it had no date. And why ''should'' it? The article spans several issues, with no single correct date to give!
:::(I happen to think presenting the UK stories in 1 article like this is stupid... but I lost that fight a long time ago, so the template might as well address it well.) -23:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Er. What's wrong with just listing all the dates in the date section, or a range of dates? We already do that for Man of Iron, IIRC. I don't see what the big deal is there. It's a date field... no reason it can't have more than one date in it.
::::The only accommodation I might make is adding extra "story 2" credits to make credits for multiple stories a bit tidier, but that's less a major change and more just a tweak. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

====Counter-proposal====
{{:User:SanityOrMadness/infobox}}
Keeps the basic layout of the current {{tl|comicstory}} (including keeping the '''issue numbers''' rather than the title at the top, which I consider key), but separates the meta-info from the story info (which is headed by the title, as it should be. I would prefer to use separate infoboxen for separate stories on the same page, but you could have separate subsections for separate stories, each headed by the title, if it was thought desirable). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 08:55, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:I definitely agree with San here that the navigation info ''needs'' to be at the top. It's just counter-intuitive otherwise.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself. We could always do a "if/then" clause so the extra section only shows up if one of the pertinent parameters is used. (I think stacking entire infoboxes might get a bit too cluttered, plus it's nice to see a whole issue's overview right at the top, but I'm willing to see a mockup if someone thinks that might work better.)
::I find myself wondering if continuity should be in the navigation somehow, as then we could potentially tag it as a separate prev/next series if need be. I know that I was reading the Axiom Nexus text stories, for instance, and there seems to be a lack of a good way to show how some stories relate to each other in terms of reading order when the actual publication order in the franchise it's released under has stuff in between. (The Shattered Glass stories at least had the ready excuse of being stuck under that franchise for the navigation...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::''I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself.''
::::Betcha weren't :p [Seriously, with the title up top out of the way, you couldn't do anything of the sort]
::::Anyhoo, the main reason I'm a bit reluctant to put multiple stories together in such a fashion is that it would seem to divorce the latter stories from the infobox with their credits. If they end up so close together that the infoboxen actually '''stack''' and push the info ''away'' from the story in question, put them together in one infobox by all means. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Betcha I was. Because hey, you could put the title of the issue at the top (or not, if the issue doesn't actually have a title), and the title of the individual stories in the credit sections. It's funny how that works. :D
:::::And, like I said, if someone can do a mockup of dual infoboxes that doesn't look silly, I could buy it. As it is, I just think it'd be weird basically having two separate pages on one page. I like the idea of the infobox itself being devoted to the comic issue as a whole. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::I am uncomfortable with the "dual navigation" system simply because... some of these stories have now been published 3 or '''4''' times. No previous/next for them? They don't get credits or publication dates? What if I '''want''' to know when IDW published an issue of "Prey," how many parts of that story they published (IDW doubled up content from 2 UK issues) or anything else important?
:::We're just tossing aside republishing info because our template doesn't support it. Same problem with the dates being left off multi-part stories... if it's nto clear how to add the information, the information becomes lost. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Isn't the point of the '"dual-navigation" system' to record '''contemporaneous''' republication? [Marvel US in Marvel UK/Marvel G2 in Fleetway G2/IDW Beast Wars & AHM in Titan TF (...actually we don't currently do that last set, although we should)/etc]. That is, we wouldn't record an IDW "Best of the UK" as such even if it was the first such reprinting, because it was twenty years later?
::::If you try to fit ''four'' sets of data in one poor infobox, it would become unmanageably and unreadably large. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't disagree.
:::::Speaking of... right now our navigation at the top of such boxes is (in theory) publication order... but with a weird mix-in of reading order too.
:::::Should it become one or the other? And which is of primary importance? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::...Didn't I more or less say that a few comments above? I think maybe we should have both... the main navigation(s) being publication order, then a third "continuity" section with a link to the issue's continuity and the prev/next reflecting proper reading order. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:12, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The thing about THAT idea is that the issue doesn't necessarily reflect the continuity if you want one infobox per page - take the AHM "coda" issues, or the Animated ''Arrival'' issues as examples, since they have multiple stories on one page. There's no one continuity place for those issues, since they're anthologies which take place out of order. You'd have to do the continuity nav at the ''story'' level, rather than the issue level. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:52, 21 September 2009 (EDT)

I've started work on fleshing out changes at {{tl|Comicstory beta}} (relevant: [[Template:Comicstory beta/Example]]), but there's one major bit that I'm not sure how to deal with - Editors. Sometimes, editors work on the story level (to the point you could have separate editorial teams working on the different stories in the same issue, although I'm not aware of any TF examples off the top of my head), but sometimes they work at the issue level, overseeing a load of non-story content in addition to any stories in the issue (the latter's more common in the UK - US comics tend to have a letters page at most for non-story content). And so I'm having trouble placing where the various editorial credits should go - I've bunged them under a separate "Editorial" header temporarily, but I'm not happy with that - I want them under the story, or under the Publication info... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:00, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
{{--}}

== Images for deletion ==

[[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] has marked a pile of unused images for deletion. Some of them, I suspect, are unused because of the Bookworm crash, like the pictures of Lipoles. I've made a start on some of them, but if anyone wants to pitch in and fix up some of the images we should keep, be my guest! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:59, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:True, part of them are, um, "victims"(sort of) of the Bookworm crash, such as [[:Image:Convoy BT.jpg]] and several others. I think those pictures should be hold and got checked/salvage for a while before being deleted. I've check the [[:Category:To be deleted]], but I can only recognize a few. People can check their watch list or Category:To be deleted to help ID those pictures they(users) know where they(pictures) belong to. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 08:26, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:I've noticed that several of them aren't "unused" per se--they're not used as images anywhere, but they're still wikilinked to. For example, [[:Image:Fat guard.JPG]] says "There are no pages that link to this file", but if you check "What links here", you'll see that [[Capture the Cube]] does in fact link to it. So before anyone deletes any images, I suggest checking if anything is wikilinking to them first. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 08:42, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I noticed a while back that the section under the image that lists pages which link to it only includes pages where the image is actually embedded. Plus some images are used in the site skin or CSS files, like the logos [[User:Derik|Derik]] set up to appear after links to certain sites. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:30, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Are we intending to resurrect the community-nav template? The images used on it were among those tagged for deletion... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:11, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
:I'll take that as a no. And down to 150 pictures now. Again, if anyone wants to take a look through [[:Category:To be deleted]] in case anything they recognise where the images are supposed to go, please do! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:16, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

Down to 76 images. Most of those left were uploaded during the crash period, so any information about where they were intended to go is lost. Some of them, like Mugheads.jpg, are from lost talk pages. Some, like Tflive_logo_stacked.jpg, might be still useful for something. The two covers for The Ark II probably should be on the appropriate page. Some, like Mort-icons.png and Tf gf 002 back.jpg, I don't have the foggiest what they were intended for... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:23, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== This Day in Transformers History ==
We should try to turn the This Day in Transformers History into an exportable module, like our Go-Boxes. It'll help our SEO by encouraging links back to us as well as give us another source of dynamically-generated deep links to help users discover our content. We have info for all 366 days, we should exploit it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
:Speaking of history, today is the 25th anniversary of the premiere of the G1 cartoon right? Want to mention that anywhere? --[[User:SuzyP|SuzyP]] 18:35, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

== Boxes gone from disambig templates? ==

I noticed the disambiguation templates don't seem to have those gray boxes behind them anymore. Is this intentional? Because it's confusing. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:16, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Derik shifted the CSS styling into the stylesheet. Your browser probably had the old stylesheet cached, but a shift-reload should fix it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it did actually. Thanks! -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

And they (well, the ones Derik hit anyway) sprouted a thick grey left border in the transition because...? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:34, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!
:Main advantage of switching the disambig boxes to CSS: When you have multiple in a row, they stack prettier without a double-outline between them. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:47, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::''I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!''
::If that's not a Derikism, it deserves to be. (And is the main reason why I'm scared of changing to external CSS rather than inline CSS - you having the keys to the styles virtually unfettered, since those admins who could either override or yank the emopanda CSS mostly either don't know how or are absent much of the time)
::So now we have disambig templates that are unique amongst messageboxen in a particularly... nondescript way. Different enough to be irritating, not different enough to serve any real purpose. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:09, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Eh? Oh, I thought I changed it back. (I remembered why they had a border on the left... I was testing something and decided it didn't work, I didn't realize it was still on.)
:::In theory Scout was going to make some changes last week to move us out of the existing CSS situation with much less living in my dev file... but she seems to have forgotten... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:24, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What was she planning to do? I can have a crack at it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Move a bunch of stuff to [[MediaWiki:common.css]], I expect.
:::::(Note the difference between Common.css [all skins, including the ones no-one uses like Simple and MySkin], Monacobook.css [Monacobook only] and Monobook.css [Monobook only]. Scout [[User_talk:Suki_Brits#.22Fixed.22_Monobook|forgot about Monobook]] the last time common.css was edited. Incidentally, where did she ultimately put those changes? They ain't in the empty Monacobook.css.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I have a suspicion that the plan may be to create a new user class with rights to edit css files here (in which case I don't have the necessary access rights to do so)... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:59, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That was the one. :) Either she forgot, or she tried and it didn't work. I'll bug her when I remember. (It's not like it's pressing... it's been needing doing for some time so it can wait a bit longer.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::And to answer the css question, the changes are in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css this file] which isn't editable through the Mediawiki interface. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:03, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Scout, I have 3 requests."
:::::::"No, no, yes if I don't have to do any work."
:::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Did that ever get done in the end? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Guess what..... ==

I've just decided to check our statistics for no apparent reason, and we have 9,588 "legitimate content pages", whatever that means. So then I randomly decided to check out the Wikia page (which, by the way, has had the same Featured Article for God-knows-how-long), and guess what?

7,209 pages. We're beating them out by 2,349 pages, which is quite a lot. Who thinks we can hit 10,000 soon? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:No problem. ...though it's about quality, not quantity. ;) -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:24, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I can tell you the quality of their articles as well.
::Nonexistent. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:29, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh, you're too harsh. Anyways, I know this wiki's the best 'cause I checked all TF wikis before I've decided to join... -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:45, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I can personally testify, we ''delete'' articles that aren't up to snuff and don't look like they're going to be.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:Now I'm interest in knowing how many articles the original wiki had back before the big split. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 15:57, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::Somewhere around [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Arriving#A_spirit_of_healthy_competition|6890 or so]]. I should note that our current total is artificially inflated by about 75 due to the "ghost" pages causing the macron issue, so our total's nearer 9513 or so. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::@Silvery: I'm not being that harsh. Here's some examples. And I know, this will give them slightly more traffic.
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Soundwave_(Movie) Their ROTF Soundwave page.]
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/All_Hail_Megatron Their All Hail Megatron page. Count the red links.] --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:53, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::You're too harsh in a "hit 'em when they're down" sense. It's called "irony". :P -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 04:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::I get a bit of personal pride whenever I compare our Shattered Glass section to theirs. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I weep whenever i read the Animated articles...Sentinel Prime's page is the best example.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 15:00, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I just removed an ''{ongoing}'' tag from their Animated Perceptor's page. What the hell? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:08, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Also, for some reason, someone back there REALLY liked deleting my stuff. They liked it so much in fact, that my contributions page has been wiped clean. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:23, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Also, Monaco now screws up page layouts when you move mainpics to where they're meant to be! (That's what it does on another wiki I happen to be an admin on, anyway.) Woo-freakin'-hoo. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:37, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[Image:What was wikia thinking.PNG|300px|thumb|Wikia, ''seriously?'']]
:Look at the image, and be confused as to why anyone would want to see the ads? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::That option was actually put in due to user feedback. It's so they can view pages with the ads still in place and modify the layout to not look like ass.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I just checked their Shattered Glass (comic) page, and hell, they've not even added Soundwave, Rumble, Long Haul...I also feel a bit of pride since I uploaded the images and started writing most of those :) --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 20:00, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

== Reading Order ==
When the wiki began in 2006, reading order was a clear and obvious thing. It was straight publication order-- and even if broken up into minis like Dreamwave did, they followwed a logical "volume" order.

...IDW is nowwhere near that clean. Characters literally leave one aeries, appear in another, bunches of stories are interwoven. I think we should consider creating an IDW "reading order" page, simply because reading order is not the same as publication order, is not the same as chronological order. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:41, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/IDW-G1 recommended reading order]] :3 --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:10, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== OK.....weird. ==

Did someone *looks at Derik* break the block log, or is it meant to only show blocks up to March this year? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:14, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:Also, how didn't I get an edit conflict when Jimsorenson and I were trying to delete the same duplicate section at the same time?
:Derik, please don't break the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:16, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::Think back to what happened in March.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh yeah.
:::STUPID BOOKWORM! *scream is heard across the world* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:27, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, not everything is Derik's fault. On the other hand, many awesome improvements to the site ''are''.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:56, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I may have been reading a bit too much Community Portal Archives recently. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Derik breaking things is generally content, template, or presentational related-- despite all the joking, I have only ever broken the core of the site itself once. (And even then, it was for less than 10 minutes, Siph was nice enough to delete the page that was giving the site's database epileptic fits.)
::::::I'm actually rather ''proud'' of that one-- insofar that it was ''supposed'' to be completely impossible, but I somehow managed to do it! (This was back on Bookworm, I suspect their server bog-down issues contributed to making my impossible feat happen.)
::::::When I break stuff it tends to be more localized or cosmetic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:46, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Speaking of local/cosmetic issues, the automatic archive listing on this page does not appear to want to display archive 39.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:48, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::The one that doesn't exist yet?
::::::::Also, [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29#So.2C_Derik_broke_the_site.|This]] is incredibly funny. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:04, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Oh, it most definitely exists. Click on archive 38, then use the archive navigation at the top to go to the next archive. 39 is already populated.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:09, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Vote to move that page to "Things that don't exist". --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::That might be because the nav you're referring to isn't automatic. Just the ones in the individual archives. - {{unsigned|Derik| - who thought there actually were five lights in that TNG ep :p}} 16:03, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

== Something I just came up with..... ==

Because I absolutely loathe our current ''<nowiki>{{caption bastard}}</nowiki>'' tag, I came up with this.

{{messagebox
|justification=left
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the Most Wanted Pages list or the Stubs list.

For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].

|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
}}

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:03, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Tough. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:51, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
:You're pretty obsessed with caption edits.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:57, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
::I was very bored that day. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:50, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

{{messagebox
|justification=center
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the [[Special:Wantedpages|Most Wanted Pages]] list or the [[:Category:Stub|Stubs]] list. 
:''For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].''
|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
|bottomtext={{{1|}}}
}}
:Just a minor layout change. :D --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 09:35, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::Well it definitely looks better now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:39, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

== Keep an Eagle Eye (ROTF) ==

I notice that the first DVD-rips of ROTF have begun to drop-- 3 weeks before the movie is out on DVD. Be wary of a flurry of new screencaps appearing. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:20, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

== TF Wiki link forum signatures = spam = loss of google ranking? ==

Somebody on a Macross forum reported that posting links to their website via forum signatures counted as spam, which took a major hit in their site's google ranking, and it was the same for Digg linking. Since I'm not that net savvy, I'm waiting for the guy to provide more info about this, but we should probably discuss it here anyway: To our more tech and net-experienced members - does linking to our wiki via our forum signatures (as suggested and encouraged by our staff during the move last year) actually count as spam in Google's eyes and hurt our search ranking? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:04, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
:No. The worst that Google would do would be to ignore the links for the purposes of ranking. If Google ''did'' demote sites based on forum signatures, people would start putting links to their competitor's sites in their signatures. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:23, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

== WTF? ==

Why does [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]] even exist? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:35, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

== Obscure BW comic, anyone? ==

Alright for the past while now, I've been looking up and adding in obscure Beast Wars products. I remembered both the Mutating Card Game and both Jigsaw Puzzles, and I've already taken note to add those in. But one piece of memorabilia that has still eluded me is a really old comic... My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, and I can't quite recall if it was a seperate mini-comic from the two-pack of "Optimus vs. Megatron!" or if the scenes I'm remembering are part of that comic as well.
The only scenes I recall from said comic are the opening, where a pre-earth mode Cheetor peeks through some vegetation to reveal a (very small) crystal. The subsequent dialog explained that they had to take on beast modes to overcome the toxic radiation of the crystal (much like the tv show).
Anyone has any similar recollection? Or if anyone has scans of the "Optimus vs. Megatron!" mini-comic to clear up wether or not it is a scene from that comic that I'm remembering, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I hope I'm not going crazy and remembering a comic that doesn't exist, because as far as I can tell, it's not listed on the Beast Wars comics page. Thanks --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:23, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

:It's not the "Optimus Primal Vs. Megatron!" comic, that one starts with Primal(in beast mode) flying in the sky, and then Cheetor running in the dark with a glow in his eyes. Unless you mistake the sparkle in his eyes for a crystal, it's not the same comic.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== Categories for modes? ==

I've been trying to find out which transformer one of my old toys is, and I'd hoped I could compare it against each of the transformers with an aeroplane mode - but I couldn't find such a list. So I wondered whether it would be a good idea to have categories for the transformers' modes, so I could go to [[:Category:Aeroplanes]] and look it up like that. Good idea? I'm not volunteering to do the legwork :-) [[Special:Contributions/86.7.22.40|86.7.22.40]] 06:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:[http://tfu.info/ID/index.htm This external link] might help. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:56, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Notes" ==
When did we start changing all the "Trivia" subheaders to "Notes"? ...And why even bother?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 20:17, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:Someone stated that they hated the header "Trivia" as it made the info seem inconsequential when sometimes it was actually useful/relevant, and those of us who thought they had a point started going along with that thought. (Although much to my annoyance I don't recall off-hand who said it or where, other than I think maybe it was on one of the Shattered Glass articles.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::It becomes irritating to me since "Notes" was solely confined to the comics and media articles and "Trivia" was confined to character and toy pages, so now we've got a bunch of random character pages with a "Notes" section (Hot Rod character page, for instance) and others with a "Trivia" section (Hot Rod toy page, for instance) for no particular reason. It looks sloppy and I have no idea whether I should be trying to track down and reset the headings to one or the other or if I'll get warned for it.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 23:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::"Someone" was probably me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:16, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, you're our resident cruft inquisition!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I think some page's contents in the Trivia sections is, um, mixed up with notes (relevant but can't be put in other section) and trivia (a little irrelevant BUT notable) things. So, maybe page like this would still need a trivia section, that is, separate their Trivia section into Trivia and Notes section. Of course, that may involve subjective view of the users who edit the page.--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:19, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::So are we going to decide on some form of consistent change or just use the two words randomly?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 02:31, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've been changing pages to "Notes" as I work them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:34, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It'd also be a fairly easy bot request.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:38, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Easy as long as you have a full list of the pages on the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:39, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::It's not as simple as it might appear - we have [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|episode pages]] with Notes sections with Trivia subsections, so the bot would have to take that into account (and a blanket change of #Trivia anchors wouldn't be possible because some will be legitimately pointing to those Trivia sections). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::In the case of the bot request I made, I specifically said to replace <nowiki>==Trivia==</nowiki> with <nowiki>==Notes==</nowiki>. The pages you reference have <nowiki>===Trivia===</nowiki>, which should be possible to exclude in a search.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:54, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Preventing direct image linking ==

As we know, the wiki costs a fair bit to run and early on in our post Bookworm crash server move, it used more bandwidth than our bosses calculated, so the last thing we need is people going around directly linking images off of our server for forums or even their blogs or whatever (The [[Mountain Dew Robot]]s logo was one of our most popular articles... because some idiot linked the image to his website). Is there any way for us to prevent this? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:54, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes and no.
:Yes in the sense that it's pretty easy to create an .htaccess file that redirects hotlinks in some way.
:No in the sense that it might break the GoBoxes, if there isn't some way to make it so that the rewrite rules allow just the GoBox images to be hotlinked. Hrm. Although I think the GoBoxes are all PNGs, and we have very few PNGs as normal images, so it might not be ''that'' big a workaround problem. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, all the gobox images are in their own folder anyway, so it's simple enough to exclude them. This is probably a REALLY good idea; somebody give me a suitable (and tiny) replacement image and I'll try to make it so. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 08:45, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on what you had in mind. You could either go the route of just making a one pixel GIF (i.e. smallest image possible), or maybe use our logo with "no hotlinking permitted" written on it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:01, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Goatse. Or the nearest TF equivalent of "ridiculous shock image." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:00, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Anything from Kiss Players, then. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:09, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::...can we still let me inline images on my blog? Can we make exceptions? Because sometimes I do that, because it's technically me paying for the bandwidth anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:17, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Whitelisting domains is easy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::I'm not extremely savvy with that kind of stuff (most of my knowledge coming from archived talkpages on this wiki), so I have no idea whether it's possible.
:::::::What ''is'' a goatse, anyway? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::You don't want to know if you don't already. Trust me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Sorry I asked.
:::::::::*remembers the vandal that came in and messed with some talk pages* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::''"Or the nearest TF equivalent"'' - Something like [[:Image:Tftm1986e.jpg|this]], you mean? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:50, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Something more like [[:Image:LegionRape1.jpg|this]] would be "the nearest TF equivalent", surely. [Or, potentially even more disturbing, [[:Image:AtariScream.jpg|this]].] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:07, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Even Kiss Players is only about a 3 on the shock meter compared to Goatse. An image of Pat Lee might be appropriate... I suggest sticking to something small anyway, otherwise the bandwidth problem is still there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:41, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::How about [[:Image:Siestacron.gif|this]] with something like "You have found The Void." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:52, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I vote for Pat Lee. That's awesome. BANDWIDTH SUPERSTAR! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 18:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, the GoBoxes are fairly bandwidth-light, right? What if we did a variation on them, with the leeched image replaced with a notice that the image was leeched, and encouraging them to go to TFWiki.net to learn about Transformers?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:57, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:I stand by my Kiss Players suggestion. That or the image of dead Prime from TFTM with a tagline at the bottom saying "This image is dead due to hotlinking." --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
::Rosicrucian has the right idea. We make it work for us, rather than just 'punish' the people doing it. We don't try to shock or dismay, just state that hotlinking is bad (m'kay?) and that tfwiki.net is the place to learn about Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

:FFN brought up an important issue! (FFN also totally forgot about this immediately after posting the original question and only just read this discussion.) And yeah, I totally forgot about the Go-Box. Since I'm not on the Allspark, I've never really seen the go box in use, other than Derrik Wyatt's blog. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:22, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Quintessa.jpg|thumb|250px]]
::'''This''' is about the most vindictively confusing thing you could spike someone with, IMO. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:47, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::USE IT. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

== GoBots on this wiki ==
===Initial kick-off===
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[Tonka GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Depth of coverage?===
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Some initial chime-ins===

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?===

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights ====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Canon or not-canon====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvelverse side-discussion redux====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
::Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
:::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
:::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Multiverse side-discussion====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
:::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.===

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (G1)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

===A potential solution===
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Audio file problems - they don't seem to work ==
I don't think we ever resolved this when Derik brought it up a long time ago, but whatever script we use for audio files doesn't work, at least it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. On Wikia wikis, when you click on a "listen to this audio file", your browser should activate java, buffer the ogg file and play it. However, on TFWiki, the browser merely tries to download the file, not play it. If you choose to open the file via your browser's download dialogue, the file downloads into your temp files and plays it off the nearest compatible media player, which is a *''remarkably''* roundabout way of doing things. Is there any way we can fix this? (I'm using Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 6)--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:19, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm assuming that Wikia must have some embedded audio file player installed or something, which is probably doable via an extension. I have to admit I don't see it as a high priority... having the browser call up a helper file is a normal way of handling such things, plus I like being able to download and save the file.
:Not only that, but we barely have any audio files to worry about... I think the Scene Transition page is the only article I've come across that has an appreciable number of audio files on it. Although now that I think about it, I wonder if creating WAVs of characters' main quotes where possible might be an interesting idea, to give samples of what characters sound like. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:09, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Downloading - well, there's the minor issue that the majority of our users will be unable to play .ogg files anyway, for even if codecs are easily had, it's a fairly obscure format. Hell, I never even heard of it until 2005. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:27, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::WinAmp plays OGGs just fine out-of-the-box, among a number of other media players out there, so I don't see an issue. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:35, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:In case we want to install an extension to handle this: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:50, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

== Editing Go Boxes? ==
I've utterly failed at finding a guide to editing a Go Box address, so I figured I'd just note that the Go Box for "Tankor (ROTF)" instead links to a blank "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" page for some reason. {{unsigned|MCRG Again}}
:Fixed. Someone put the destination page down as "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" in [[Template:Goicons]], thus causing the GoBox to send you to a non-existent page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== When was the last Database backup? ==

Just curious. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:That is exactly why we need that "Database last backed-up by: (insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)." thing someone suggested a long time ago. That way, we may avoid Bookworm Crash 2.0. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:15, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Of course, one of the major causes of The Bookworm Event was that corrupt or otherwise failed backups were being registered as successful. That backups are regularly checked is just as important as backups being made in the first place, and "(insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)" wouldn't prove that. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::At least we know if there ''is'' a backup to check at all. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::By us, manually? I dunno. We pay for automatic backups every week as part of our hosting. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah, that last one is slightly more reassuring.
:::I mean-- they're the same automatic backups Bookworm was theoretically making, but IIRC the current host was picked (in part) for having a good reputation for such things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:32, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::McFly confirmed [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive41#Googlejuice_-_Bad_News_Everyone|a while back]] that the auto backups were working, so hopefully they still are. Good news for when we eventually upgrade the software! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-10-21T15:31:51Z

76.28.72.27: /* A potential solution */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Marvel UK issue pages ==

I feel that we need to make a change with how we handle Marvel UK comic issues. The UK comics split most of its stories up over multiple issues, and even reprinted some of the split up in a ''different'' way. This has led the story articles to become bloated with non-story info (covers, letter pages, other comics from the same issue, contests, ads) for multiple issues on a single story page. Also, navigating the UK comic is a pain in the ass, as many issues having two stories (one issue has ''three''!), as well as the reprints.

Here's what I suggest we do:

* '''Make "hub" pages for the individual issues.''' These pages will cover issue-specific things. Those UK cover scans clogging up every Marvel Transformer story? They go here. As does information from that issue's letter pages, ads, TransFormations, and anything else that isn't a part of the actual stories. Also, there will be a list of what each issue contains, mostly the TOC from the issue itself. Non-Transformers backup strips (Machine Man, Action Force) should need nothing more beyond the name of the series and the title of the story unless more info is given in the cover, letters page, TransFormations, Coming Attractions or the like. The TOC will also have links to our story articles.

*'''Leave the story articles mostly unchanged''' The UK comic usually treated the stories like serials (think the early Flash Gotdon films or the original Doctor Who series), so splitting them up makes no sense. Aside from moving the issue-specific stuff to the hub pages, the only changes needed will be removing the story navigation box from the UK-original stories, removal of the UK navigation from the stories written for the US comic, and adding any needed "Reprinted in" links, and putting "Originally printed in" links on the stories written for the UK comic.

Marvel US 33 & 34 (Man of Iron!) and Action Force 24-27 (Ancient Relics!) would be handled in the same way. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:40, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:So you're suggesting that ''any'' issue which contained multiple discontinuous stories get a page for the issue, and a page for both stories? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:37, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:: Not exactly. Marvel UK is a special case because these multiple discontinuous stories are broken up over multiple issues. We would still have one page for Time Wars. I'll put together a sample tommorow. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:51, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::I have a ''very'' rough example at [[User:FortMax/Sandbox]]. The main reason I feel this needs to be done is because not only does the UK comic non only have multiple stories in each issue, these stories get spread out over multiple issues. For example, [[Time Wars]] was printed over seven issues. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 12:04, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::That makes sense... a 'landing page.' I'm tentatively in favor of it... but I'd like to see what others say. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:40, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::::I think this is a really good idea, because it enables us to show the very different format of the UK comic. Formats, in fact - something I didn't realise till I completed my collection is how ''very'' different the first 30 or so issues are from the rest. More like a robot enthusiast's magazine than a comic, and much more 'British' in feel. Unfortunately I've only got my scanned copies of issues 1-5 to work from at the moment, but I can mock something up to show you what I mean. --[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 06:25, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::I've never been overly happy that a big, "blockbuster-that-changes-everything" story like Target: 2006 or The Legacy of Unicron only gets one issue, whereas, say, the issues leading up to US #75 get a page each. There's examples of serial storytelling and individual-issue focuses (eg, Prime surrendering, or the introduction of the Wreckers) in each. [[User:LiamK|LiamK]] 09:25, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've done a fair bit across the UK comics lately and I'd be hugely in favour of breaking T:2006 (especially) into its component issues - just because they weren't individually named they get lumped together in one article which I think does a great disservice to the story. I'd compare it to a six-issue series like Devastation which gets six pages labelled issue 1, issue 2 and so forth, so I don't think articles called Target: 2006 issue 1, Target: 2006 issue 2 etc. would necessarily be beyond the pale. I don't know how far I'd want to take it though - splitting up stories like City of Fear or Legion of the Lost seems a bit pointless, more so The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire which wasn't meant to be split in the first place. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm in favour. I also think that a standard link to the appropriate letters page on transfans.net (similar to the way we do tfu.info for toys) wouldn't go amiss. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

::::I'm also in favour. This is the approach I took on Joepedia for the weekly Action Force comics where there are similar problems - see [http://gijoe.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Force_%28weekly%29] for how it works on the individual issues. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 07:59, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
:If you are taking the navigation off the stories, won't that make it more difficult to click through the UK continuity, from one story to the next one, continuity-wise? Then again, I'm not super familiar with the UK comics, maybe it is so complicated that that feature is basically broken as it is. But if the current story-based nav works I'd like to keep that as well as a issue-to-issue nav. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:39, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

==Can the nav-template images be variables?==
For example: The [[:Template:Nav-henkei|''Henkei! Henkei!'' nav-template]] uses the logo from the toy packaging, since that applies to the majority of the pages the template is on. However, the [[Henkei! Henkei! (Comic Bun Bun)|Comic Bun Bun ''Henkei!'' material]]
uses a completely different logo design, and it would be nice to be able to substitute it for just that page. This is one of several times I've wanted to be able to do that, and maybe there's a simple way to designate the image as a replaceable variable, but my markup-fu is weak. Any help is appreciated. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:35, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:<s>The answer seems to be "no"... for some reason, even with a default set in the parameter, the imagemap code refuses to parse the parameter's info.</s>
:<s>You could always just post the entire code of the navigation template manually on that one page with the logo code swapped...</s> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:NM, I figured it out. You should be able to do this now:
:<nowiki>{{nav-henkei|logo=(filename)|size=(number)(unit)}}</nowiki>
:It's set up so that if the parameters aren't given, it'll just display the default, so you don't need to change the pages that do use the typical logo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::Awesooooooooome, thank you. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:32, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:::No problem. :) Let me know if you need any of the other navs altered, although you should be able to just copy and paste the code and change the defaults... (actually, with my [[User:Jeysie/FranchiseNavs|idea for a code revamp]], I wonder if it might be possible to just have one nav template with all variables...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Hmm, I didn't know you were playing around with franchise-nav revisions. I actually have a grand proposal cooking up in my head for a full breadcrumb-trail nav revamp that would be applicable to basically any non-character/item/place article. The idea being that if you're at, say, an article about a comic issue, there would be a nav in the corner with links to the series, franchise, and continuity family going up in a column. And if you're at a series-article, you would be one step up in that chain, and the nav would have links to all the other series in that franchise (presented in the current style), as well as the vertically-arranged "title" links to the franchise and continuity family. Then if you're at a franchise, you get links to the other franchises in that continuity family, plus the continuity family itself. And, finally, the continuity-family articles themselves would have a nav with links to the other families. It would be a change in functionality to the effect that the cluster of little links would always be lateral, and digging down into more specific topics would require links within the articles themselves. Currently that's the case with most articles, the exception being franchises. But I think it would be incredibly awesome to have that kind of breadcrumb-trail so a reader always knows where he or she is in the multiverse at large. Plus it would help clarify how the hierarchy of families and franchises and series and so on actually works in specific cases, since that's often been a source of confusion and argument.
::::But I figure I should cobble together a working sample of some sort before I formally present the idea, and I think I might need some more markup-fu before that's even possible. Or I could make a facsimile in Flash or something... Anyway, at the very least, I think having the ability to swap out the logo image is actually a step towards making this idea happen. So thanks again!
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, my current idea was mainly just trying to simplify the existing coding a little, as well as adding some prev/next links to the continuity family section. I think the big problem with breadcrumb links is that people would have to put them in by hand, which would make filling in comic stories even more work than it already is. The "continuity family" section of the comicnav template already tends to be pretty inconsistent sometimes depending on how the person creating the page chooses to link it. (In other words, it's a nice idea, but it'd be too contingent on people filling it in correctly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:41, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The episode nav template uses standard strings to identify continuities (like "g1toon") and then uses look-up tables to find the proper series page link for this, the proper "human-readable" for that link and even look up how many episodes there are in the series, and create automatic prev/next links as long as you give it an episode number.
:::::::The reason we use strings instead of pagenames is '''1)''' they're shorter, simpler, cleaner, more standardized... '''2)''' it means that if the page moves (or we change our mind on the naming convention) we only have to change it in ''one place'' in the lookup tables, and the link changes on hundreds of pages.
:::::::What I'm saying is... you DON'T need to force users to fill in series/franchise/family. ...just fill in the SERIES. Let the template fill in the rest! (And let you manually override the lookup if you explicitly provide variables, for maximum flexability.)
:::::::But that's not a system you can throw together by trial and error; it needs proper architecture planning or it'll be a godawful mess.
:::::::I guess what I'm saying is... if we really want to rationalize and standardize the major templates on the wiki... we need a serious meta-talk about what that means, in the broadest possible scope. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, the problem is... I agree it'd be pretty easy to auto-breadcrumb the TV series. But when you start getting into things like the comics and text stories, you start running into many different miniseries and individual issues, all of which fit into different continuities. I think the continuity family is already enough info for those, provided we make sure they all point to the right ones. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:48, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::That's not exactly a 'problem' as it's conventionally thought of. You could set up auto-fill-ins for the 6 most commons comics-- which would cover 70-80% of everything, but let manual values be set for the rest (or not set) to the level of detail you desire. No solution has to be 100% you know. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:05, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::No, but for stuff like the Marvel Comics it would take just as long to copy and paste in manual info as it would to paste in the new code, after all. So it's the new pages where people would have one more thing to add in that you'd really need to worry about, if it's part of that other 20%. Whereas I agree that new TV series episodes would get to have the benefit of auto-ness.
::::::::::I guess it just seems like a lot of work for little benefit, seeing as how the continuity part of the nav pretty much covers all the context necessary. Not that I don't think it's possible the ep/comicnav could use some overhaul (though what exactly I don't know; they both seem pretty complete to me), just that I don't think breadcrumbs would be an effective expenditure of time. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:43, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::::::::I'm pretty much in agreement with that last sentiment, which is one of the reasons why I'm not technically proposing my idea yet. It needs a more concrete starting point (like a mock-up design) from which all the discussion and probably argument can branch. I have my own notions about how it could be set up in a way that wouldn't involve as much work or personal discretion as Jeysie suggests, but... well, now's not the time. Maybe later. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:12, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::So what needs revision? The episode templates-- fine. And the comic issues. And the franchise navigation. And a standard breadcrumbing system... but what else? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:17, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I've noticed on the Marvel wiki that the "writer"/"artist" text in their issue infoboxes links to [[:Category: Writers]]. I'd liek us ot consider adding this. (Also, there's something about the size or spacing of their infoboxes I just ''like''... I think we might want to take a look at 'em when we get around to recoding.)

::::::Derik points out that in such a scenario, the breakcrumb need not be built into (for example) the episode infobox template. The more elegant solutions is something like:
<pre><nowiki> {{episode
|breadcrumb= {{breadcrumb
|continuity_family=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
|franchise=[[Armada (franchise)|]]
|series=[[Armada (cartoon)|cartoon]]
}}
}}</nowiki></pre>
::::::...where you'd be pass the whole breadcrumb template as a parameter to another template. That way if the breadcrumb also has to show up in other templates... there's a standard code, standard styling, etc. Cleaner simpler code, easier to maintain, more universal, easier to work with, less percussive maintenence, etc.
::::::That's not a solution to everything though, because we've got two prev/next/series navs for comics, and some of the Marvel issues could use ''four'' or more. Stacking 4 of those things is retarded, and pointless. We need a more rational means of addressing republished stuff. I went to look up when a certain Marvel UK issue was published the other day and we '''didn't have the information'''. ...because it was published in the US first, and our template only has one "pub date" field. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::Sankyuu! Henkei needs a bit more love. :D --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 22:59, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

===CSS rationalization===
While discussing rewriting our HTML... we should also probably discuss CSS rationalization.

Right now our code has absolutely no regard for what the page looks like printed. (Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed.) Do we want our links to have addresses when printed? For example, I believe CSS could make [[Optimus Prime (G1)|this link]] print like this link ("Optimue Prime (G1)") or like this link ( http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ) or like this link ( tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ), any of which would be 'friendlier' for printed-out versions.

Of course, if this was applied to excessively [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PotHole PotHole'd] articles, the text it might become almost unreadable. Perhaps smaller or faded text would make tooting my own horn User:Derik less obtrusive when printed. Regardless what's decided for article text, I strongly believe that ''storylinks'' should have the disambig visible when printing. King of the Hill (Armada episode)

Printing, I grant you, is a fairly minor concern. But what about syndication? A few people are beginning to [http://www.botchthecrab.com/archive/history.asp dynamically syndicate] our content. Botch went to some trouble to remove our messageboxes and various other elements-- he just wanted the guts of the article. If we'd attached standard classes to templates (ones that have '''no CSS''' associated with them as far as TFWiki is concerned) he could have just syndicated the page as-is and hidden those elements with a few lines of CSS! (If nothing else, the storylinks need a class marking them... that seems like something that many would like to hide.)

Live page syndication is clumsy. (And I need to yell at Botch, because IIRC he's doing his in a terrible way, from our server's perspective.) But if we ''encourage'' it, it's another tool in our promotional quiver! (There was a PHP script I was working on the other month that actually has some ''fairly good'' TFWiki-specific syndication. If that was polished and made easy to use, it could have some legs.)

Soto-voice snark aside-- we really need classed like ''.noPrint'' and ''.printOnly.'' And when we redo our episode/issue infoboxes... the tables should be tested to they print nicely, '''and''' we should publish the CSS people can use to turn various 'bits off. (Or a 'general guide to site CSS', if only for our OWN use.)

How about this...? We've been moving a LOT of our code out of HTML and into CSS. One of the effects of this is that simply syndicating [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Package_art&action=render the "rendered" page]... a lot of the HTML layouts are gobbeltygook. Should we have a consideration for syndicators who don't include our CSS file? Maybe templates we know are unlikely to be wanted can be flagged with a ''.noSyndicate'' class, making it easy to hide them? Or we should have a Syndicate.css file that includes the bare-minimum CSS code for templates to lay out right? Should ''some'' templates (<nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki>, for instance) be rewritten so that they will render in a readable (if not ideal) fashion even if no css is included? Is there a "scale" these questions all fall on... a sort of "how important is this element to the content of the page?" spectum, where at the low end we don't care and tell people to hide it, at the middle we provide identifying tags so they can be hidden, or a truncated CSS file so they render nice, and at the high end we write the HTML so the element will always be readable even without CSS to make it pretty? (That last one means code that's less contextual. Where do our priorities lie?)

These are philosophical issues. None are especially high priority, but the "cost" of addressing them is relatively tiny, so if we're doing some thorough redesigning... it'd be a good idea.

Some elements we have (like main pages) sometimes get quite "big" (laid out in a fashion that accepts a minimum of 500+ pixels wide.) Is it worth adding a ''.bigElement'' class or a ''.mobile'' class so that those elements can have code written in a mobile device CSS file that reduces their size? Is this even a concern for new mobile devices, which scale easily? How to Kindles handle them? Do e-readers support javascript? What about tablets and wireless internet devices?

More and more, content on the internet is going to be viewed by something other than what we normally think of as a "web browser," and because web-''developers'' spend all their time in web browsers they often neglect these outlets. We do not have to bend over backward to accommodate these technologies... if problems do arise, they will probably be the 90/10 sort; 90% of the solution/benefit can be accomplished with just 10% of the effort. '''Example:''' When [http://tformers.com a certain news site] rolled out their home page redesign several years ago, it mis-rendered on some versions of Safari-- pushing the story content below the left navigation bar. In short... the page appeared '''blank'''. This problem remained unfixed for almost a year-- it was caused by the nav rendering just ''one'' pixel too wide, pushing a floated layout down. This remained unfixed for almost a year. I'm sure that this bug only affected maybe 1% of site visitors. But after a year of blank pages... that 1% also probably '''stopped visiting'''. 1% over the course of a year is a ''lot'' of lost pageviews, it's like having your site be down for 3 days.

Anyway... that's my rant. There's no solutions there... just ideas/concerns/meta.

If other people are interested in discussing this sort of thing... may I suggest we create a dumping ground at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Quantum Cycle Upgrade]] where we can gather thoughts/issues about long-term infrastructure upgrades? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:35, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

:Picking up on just one thing for now:
::''Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed''
:Thing about that is that they DO contain information you might want when printed that isn't contained elsewhere on a page (the writer of a story, for instance).
:I could certainly see a certain degree of stripping down the messageboxen for printing as a good idea (take a look at http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=End_of_the_Road!_(US)&printable=yes - it's not even just the {{tl|comicstory}} [which has become a bad name for that template as its' uses have multiplied...] box - the {{tl|featuredcharacters}} box further down could do with being stripped for print. And I'm not sure the {{tl|disambig2}} needs to be visible at all.), but I'm not sure about hiding them by default. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:15, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
::I agree about stripping those kinds of things down... but when I said "messageboxes" I meant things like "picsneeded"; those have an ''enormous'' footprint, and they print. Their ''entire purpose'' is to alert editors of page deficiencies.... but people reading print-outs aren't editing those the pages, it's pointless. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:32, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah. I wasn't thinking of those, just {{tl|comicstory}} and {{tl|episode}}. Yeah, removing {{tl|picsneeded}} and its ilk would make sense. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:20, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

===Jeysie's infobox===
<div style="border:solid 2px #def;float:right;margin:0 1em 1em 1em;text-align:center;width:300px;">
'''Prisoner of War!'''
<div style="margin:1em .25em .5em .25em;">[[Image:MarvelUS-03.jpg|frameless|230px]] Is he strong? Listen, [[Bud]], he made Megatron go thud.</div>
{|cellspacing="0" style="margin:.5em 0;text-align:left;width:100%;"
|-
!colspan="2" style="background:#def;margin:0;padding:.5em 0;text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics]]
|-
!style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;"|Cover date
|style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;text-align:right;"|January 1985
|-
!style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;"|Street date
|style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;text-align:right;"|[[October 2]], 1984
|-
|colspan="2" style="text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics continuity]]
|}
{|style="background:#def;padding:.5em 0;width:100%;"
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #3
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)#Marvel UK|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #5–6
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|}
{|style="padding:.5em;text-align:right;width:100%;"
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Writer
|[[Jim Salicrup]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Penciler
|[[Frank Springer]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Inker
|[[Kim DeMulder]], [[Jim Esposito]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Colorist
|[[Nelson Yomtov]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Letterers
|[[Janice Chiang]] & Others
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Editor
|[[Bob Budiansky]]
|}
</div>
I remember doing this rough tweak idea based on Derik's comment that he liked the Marvel wiki's infobox.

Not very ''much'' of a tweak, admittedly, as I actually like our current setup for the most part. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:46, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Okay, some things:
:#{{tl|comicstory}} is used for a LOT more than, well, comic stories, to the point that the template name is bad. But unless you want to go and find/change all of those uses (and they're pretty diverse, I don't think you could bot them), it's pretty much impossible to change the broad layout of the template.
:#Moving the back/forward navigation from the top (where it's easily accessible) to a point where it would be ''below the fold'' on netbooks, e-readers and less up to date PCs? Are you seriously suggesting that?!
:Seriously, I don't "get" the ideas behind the layout here at all. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:00, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::They all use pretty much the same setup, actually, if you look at them. I can't think of any usage on text stories and books that is seriously different offhand... they have different credit/info types, yes, but they go visually in the same places. I would probably put things like page count and ISBN in the "publisher" box. 
::And like I said, I was emulating the Marvel wiki infobox, which actually has the navigation at the ''bottom''. But essentially... I wanted to get the title up top, and make a "publisher" section, and a "credits" section... and the navigation made a good visual divider between the last two sections. I agree it's kind of weird, though... I could see moving it back up to the top under the title and just having a thick border in its place between the bottom two sections.
::Like I said, it's pretty minor stuff... I think our infobox is just about perfect as-is, really. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:10, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

:::It's not just stories. The [[Hasbro Q&A]] pages use it. The Collectors' Club Magazine pages use it, along with other non-story content from magazines, etc. What's the "title" in those instances?
:::Moreover, why move the title to the top at all? The title is already written in big letters at the top of the page on a single-story page, or at the top of the section on multi-story pages. Below the cover is a good place for it.
:::And the cover date & street date are hanging in no-man's land here, with no association with any relevant information - it looks like ''Marvel Comics'' had a street date of Oct 2, 1984.- [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:37, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::We'd leave the title off. You know, just like we do for miniseries ''already''? Sheesh, I love it when people complain about something "new" without realizing the wiki already does it.</sarcasm>
::::That said, if we move the navigation back to the top, we could move the title back under the picture again. I guess it just seems to me like it's the "first" bit of info about a book, and you could use your comment as an argument towards leaving out the title bit entirely anyway.
::::I like my publisher idea, though... it separates the meta-info about the book from the credits. And the publisher's name makes the most logical sense to use in a section heading. Like you said, the title's at the top, so I have a hard time thinking anyone's going to think the street date has to do with the publisher's name instead of the issue the article's about. I like to assume basic intelligence on the part of the reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::Our existing comicstory template is already deficient in presenting multi-part stories: I went to look up when [[Target: 2006]] was published... and discovered it had no date. And why ''should'' it? The article spans several issues, with no single correct date to give!
:::(I happen to think presenting the UK stories in 1 article like this is stupid... but I lost that fight a long time ago, so the template might as well address it well.) -23:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Er. What's wrong with just listing all the dates in the date section, or a range of dates? We already do that for Man of Iron, IIRC. I don't see what the big deal is there. It's a date field... no reason it can't have more than one date in it.
::::The only accommodation I might make is adding extra "story 2" credits to make credits for multiple stories a bit tidier, but that's less a major change and more just a tweak. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

====Counter-proposal====
{{:User:SanityOrMadness/infobox}}
Keeps the basic layout of the current {{tl|comicstory}} (including keeping the '''issue numbers''' rather than the title at the top, which I consider key), but separates the meta-info from the story info (which is headed by the title, as it should be. I would prefer to use separate infoboxen for separate stories on the same page, but you could have separate subsections for separate stories, each headed by the title, if it was thought desirable). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 08:55, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:I definitely agree with San here that the navigation info ''needs'' to be at the top. It's just counter-intuitive otherwise.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself. We could always do a "if/then" clause so the extra section only shows up if one of the pertinent parameters is used. (I think stacking entire infoboxes might get a bit too cluttered, plus it's nice to see a whole issue's overview right at the top, but I'm willing to see a mockup if someone thinks that might work better.)
::I find myself wondering if continuity should be in the navigation somehow, as then we could potentially tag it as a separate prev/next series if need be. I know that I was reading the Axiom Nexus text stories, for instance, and there seems to be a lack of a good way to show how some stories relate to each other in terms of reading order when the actual publication order in the franchise it's released under has stuff in between. (The Shattered Glass stories at least had the ready excuse of being stuck under that franchise for the navigation...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::''I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself.''
::::Betcha weren't :p [Seriously, with the title up top out of the way, you couldn't do anything of the sort]
::::Anyhoo, the main reason I'm a bit reluctant to put multiple stories together in such a fashion is that it would seem to divorce the latter stories from the infobox with their credits. If they end up so close together that the infoboxen actually '''stack''' and push the info ''away'' from the story in question, put them together in one infobox by all means. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Betcha I was. Because hey, you could put the title of the issue at the top (or not, if the issue doesn't actually have a title), and the title of the individual stories in the credit sections. It's funny how that works. :D
:::::And, like I said, if someone can do a mockup of dual infoboxes that doesn't look silly, I could buy it. As it is, I just think it'd be weird basically having two separate pages on one page. I like the idea of the infobox itself being devoted to the comic issue as a whole. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::I am uncomfortable with the "dual navigation" system simply because... some of these stories have now been published 3 or '''4''' times. No previous/next for them? They don't get credits or publication dates? What if I '''want''' to know when IDW published an issue of "Prey," how many parts of that story they published (IDW doubled up content from 2 UK issues) or anything else important?
:::We're just tossing aside republishing info because our template doesn't support it. Same problem with the dates being left off multi-part stories... if it's nto clear how to add the information, the information becomes lost. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Isn't the point of the '"dual-navigation" system' to record '''contemporaneous''' republication? [Marvel US in Marvel UK/Marvel G2 in Fleetway G2/IDW Beast Wars & AHM in Titan TF (...actually we don't currently do that last set, although we should)/etc]. That is, we wouldn't record an IDW "Best of the UK" as such even if it was the first such reprinting, because it was twenty years later?
::::If you try to fit ''four'' sets of data in one poor infobox, it would become unmanageably and unreadably large. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't disagree.
:::::Speaking of... right now our navigation at the top of such boxes is (in theory) publication order... but with a weird mix-in of reading order too.
:::::Should it become one or the other? And which is of primary importance? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::...Didn't I more or less say that a few comments above? I think maybe we should have both... the main navigation(s) being publication order, then a third "continuity" section with a link to the issue's continuity and the prev/next reflecting proper reading order. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:12, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The thing about THAT idea is that the issue doesn't necessarily reflect the continuity if you want one infobox per page - take the AHM "coda" issues, or the Animated ''Arrival'' issues as examples, since they have multiple stories on one page. There's no one continuity place for those issues, since they're anthologies which take place out of order. You'd have to do the continuity nav at the ''story'' level, rather than the issue level. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:52, 21 September 2009 (EDT)

I've started work on fleshing out changes at {{tl|Comicstory beta}} (relevant: [[Template:Comicstory beta/Example]]), but there's one major bit that I'm not sure how to deal with - Editors. Sometimes, editors work on the story level (to the point you could have separate editorial teams working on the different stories in the same issue, although I'm not aware of any TF examples off the top of my head), but sometimes they work at the issue level, overseeing a load of non-story content in addition to any stories in the issue (the latter's more common in the UK - US comics tend to have a letters page at most for non-story content). And so I'm having trouble placing where the various editorial credits should go - I've bunged them under a separate "Editorial" header temporarily, but I'm not happy with that - I want them under the story, or under the Publication info... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:00, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
{{--}}

== Images for deletion ==

[[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] has marked a pile of unused images for deletion. Some of them, I suspect, are unused because of the Bookworm crash, like the pictures of Lipoles. I've made a start on some of them, but if anyone wants to pitch in and fix up some of the images we should keep, be my guest! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:59, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:True, part of them are, um, "victims"(sort of) of the Bookworm crash, such as [[:Image:Convoy BT.jpg]] and several others. I think those pictures should be hold and got checked/salvage for a while before being deleted. I've check the [[:Category:To be deleted]], but I can only recognize a few. People can check their watch list or Category:To be deleted to help ID those pictures they(users) know where they(pictures) belong to. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 08:26, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:I've noticed that several of them aren't "unused" per se--they're not used as images anywhere, but they're still wikilinked to. For example, [[:Image:Fat guard.JPG]] says "There are no pages that link to this file", but if you check "What links here", you'll see that [[Capture the Cube]] does in fact link to it. So before anyone deletes any images, I suggest checking if anything is wikilinking to them first. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 08:42, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I noticed a while back that the section under the image that lists pages which link to it only includes pages where the image is actually embedded. Plus some images are used in the site skin or CSS files, like the logos [[User:Derik|Derik]] set up to appear after links to certain sites. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:30, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Are we intending to resurrect the community-nav template? The images used on it were among those tagged for deletion... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:11, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
:I'll take that as a no. And down to 150 pictures now. Again, if anyone wants to take a look through [[:Category:To be deleted]] in case anything they recognise where the images are supposed to go, please do! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:16, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

Down to 76 images. Most of those left were uploaded during the crash period, so any information about where they were intended to go is lost. Some of them, like Mugheads.jpg, are from lost talk pages. Some, like Tflive_logo_stacked.jpg, might be still useful for something. The two covers for The Ark II probably should be on the appropriate page. Some, like Mort-icons.png and Tf gf 002 back.jpg, I don't have the foggiest what they were intended for... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:23, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== This Day in Transformers History ==
We should try to turn the This Day in Transformers History into an exportable module, like our Go-Boxes. It'll help our SEO by encouraging links back to us as well as give us another source of dynamically-generated deep links to help users discover our content. We have info for all 366 days, we should exploit it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
:Speaking of history, today is the 25th anniversary of the premiere of the G1 cartoon right? Want to mention that anywhere? --[[User:SuzyP|SuzyP]] 18:35, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

== Boxes gone from disambig templates? ==

I noticed the disambiguation templates don't seem to have those gray boxes behind them anymore. Is this intentional? Because it's confusing. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:16, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Derik shifted the CSS styling into the stylesheet. Your browser probably had the old stylesheet cached, but a shift-reload should fix it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it did actually. Thanks! -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

And they (well, the ones Derik hit anyway) sprouted a thick grey left border in the transition because...? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:34, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!
:Main advantage of switching the disambig boxes to CSS: When you have multiple in a row, they stack prettier without a double-outline between them. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:47, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::''I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!''
::If that's not a Derikism, it deserves to be. (And is the main reason why I'm scared of changing to external CSS rather than inline CSS - you having the keys to the styles virtually unfettered, since those admins who could either override or yank the emopanda CSS mostly either don't know how or are absent much of the time)
::So now we have disambig templates that are unique amongst messageboxen in a particularly... nondescript way. Different enough to be irritating, not different enough to serve any real purpose. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:09, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Eh? Oh, I thought I changed it back. (I remembered why they had a border on the left... I was testing something and decided it didn't work, I didn't realize it was still on.)
:::In theory Scout was going to make some changes last week to move us out of the existing CSS situation with much less living in my dev file... but she seems to have forgotten... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:24, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What was she planning to do? I can have a crack at it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Move a bunch of stuff to [[MediaWiki:common.css]], I expect.
:::::(Note the difference between Common.css [all skins, including the ones no-one uses like Simple and MySkin], Monacobook.css [Monacobook only] and Monobook.css [Monobook only]. Scout [[User_talk:Suki_Brits#.22Fixed.22_Monobook|forgot about Monobook]] the last time common.css was edited. Incidentally, where did she ultimately put those changes? They ain't in the empty Monacobook.css.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I have a suspicion that the plan may be to create a new user class with rights to edit css files here (in which case I don't have the necessary access rights to do so)... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:59, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That was the one. :) Either she forgot, or she tried and it didn't work. I'll bug her when I remember. (It's not like it's pressing... it's been needing doing for some time so it can wait a bit longer.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::And to answer the css question, the changes are in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css this file] which isn't editable through the Mediawiki interface. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:03, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Scout, I have 3 requests."
:::::::"No, no, yes if I don't have to do any work."
:::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Did that ever get done in the end? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Guess what..... ==

I've just decided to check our statistics for no apparent reason, and we have 9,588 "legitimate content pages", whatever that means. So then I randomly decided to check out the Wikia page (which, by the way, has had the same Featured Article for God-knows-how-long), and guess what?

7,209 pages. We're beating them out by 2,349 pages, which is quite a lot. Who thinks we can hit 10,000 soon? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:No problem. ...though it's about quality, not quantity. ;) -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:24, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I can tell you the quality of their articles as well.
::Nonexistent. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:29, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh, you're too harsh. Anyways, I know this wiki's the best 'cause I checked all TF wikis before I've decided to join... -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:45, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I can personally testify, we ''delete'' articles that aren't up to snuff and don't look like they're going to be.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:Now I'm interest in knowing how many articles the original wiki had back before the big split. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 15:57, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::Somewhere around [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Arriving#A_spirit_of_healthy_competition|6890 or so]]. I should note that our current total is artificially inflated by about 75 due to the "ghost" pages causing the macron issue, so our total's nearer 9513 or so. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::@Silvery: I'm not being that harsh. Here's some examples. And I know, this will give them slightly more traffic.
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Soundwave_(Movie) Their ROTF Soundwave page.]
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/All_Hail_Megatron Their All Hail Megatron page. Count the red links.] --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:53, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::You're too harsh in a "hit 'em when they're down" sense. It's called "irony". :P -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 04:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::I get a bit of personal pride whenever I compare our Shattered Glass section to theirs. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I weep whenever i read the Animated articles...Sentinel Prime's page is the best example.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 15:00, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I just removed an ''{ongoing}'' tag from their Animated Perceptor's page. What the hell? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:08, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Also, for some reason, someone back there REALLY liked deleting my stuff. They liked it so much in fact, that my contributions page has been wiped clean. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:23, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Also, Monaco now screws up page layouts when you move mainpics to where they're meant to be! (That's what it does on another wiki I happen to be an admin on, anyway.) Woo-freakin'-hoo. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:37, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[Image:What was wikia thinking.PNG|300px|thumb|Wikia, ''seriously?'']]
:Look at the image, and be confused as to why anyone would want to see the ads? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::That option was actually put in due to user feedback. It's so they can view pages with the ads still in place and modify the layout to not look like ass.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I just checked their Shattered Glass (comic) page, and hell, they've not even added Soundwave, Rumble, Long Haul...I also feel a bit of pride since I uploaded the images and started writing most of those :) --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 20:00, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

== Reading Order ==
When the wiki began in 2006, reading order was a clear and obvious thing. It was straight publication order-- and even if broken up into minis like Dreamwave did, they followwed a logical "volume" order.

...IDW is nowwhere near that clean. Characters literally leave one aeries, appear in another, bunches of stories are interwoven. I think we should consider creating an IDW "reading order" page, simply because reading order is not the same as publication order, is not the same as chronological order. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:41, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/IDW-G1 recommended reading order]] :3 --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:10, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== OK.....weird. ==

Did someone *looks at Derik* break the block log, or is it meant to only show blocks up to March this year? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:14, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:Also, how didn't I get an edit conflict when Jimsorenson and I were trying to delete the same duplicate section at the same time?
:Derik, please don't break the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:16, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::Think back to what happened in March.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh yeah.
:::STUPID BOOKWORM! *scream is heard across the world* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:27, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, not everything is Derik's fault. On the other hand, many awesome improvements to the site ''are''.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:56, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I may have been reading a bit too much Community Portal Archives recently. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Derik breaking things is generally content, template, or presentational related-- despite all the joking, I have only ever broken the core of the site itself once. (And even then, it was for less than 10 minutes, Siph was nice enough to delete the page that was giving the site's database epileptic fits.)
::::::I'm actually rather ''proud'' of that one-- insofar that it was ''supposed'' to be completely impossible, but I somehow managed to do it! (This was back on Bookworm, I suspect their server bog-down issues contributed to making my impossible feat happen.)
::::::When I break stuff it tends to be more localized or cosmetic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:46, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Speaking of local/cosmetic issues, the automatic archive listing on this page does not appear to want to display archive 39.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:48, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::The one that doesn't exist yet?
::::::::Also, [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29#So.2C_Derik_broke_the_site.|This]] is incredibly funny. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:04, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Oh, it most definitely exists. Click on archive 38, then use the archive navigation at the top to go to the next archive. 39 is already populated.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:09, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Vote to move that page to "Things that don't exist". --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::That might be because the nav you're referring to isn't automatic. Just the ones in the individual archives. - {{unsigned|Derik| - who thought there actually were five lights in that TNG ep :p}} 16:03, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

== Something I just came up with..... ==

Because I absolutely loathe our current ''<nowiki>{{caption bastard}}</nowiki>'' tag, I came up with this.

{{messagebox
|justification=left
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the Most Wanted Pages list or the Stubs list.

For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].

|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
}}

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:03, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Tough. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:51, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
:You're pretty obsessed with caption edits.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:57, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
::I was very bored that day. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:50, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

{{messagebox
|justification=center
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the [[Special:Wantedpages|Most Wanted Pages]] list or the [[:Category:Stub|Stubs]] list. 
:''For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].''
|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
|bottomtext={{{1|}}}
}}
:Just a minor layout change. :D --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 09:35, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::Well it definitely looks better now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:39, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

== Keep an Eagle Eye (ROTF) ==

I notice that the first DVD-rips of ROTF have begun to drop-- 3 weeks before the movie is out on DVD. Be wary of a flurry of new screencaps appearing. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:20, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

== TF Wiki link forum signatures = spam = loss of google ranking? ==

Somebody on a Macross forum reported that posting links to their website via forum signatures counted as spam, which took a major hit in their site's google ranking, and it was the same for Digg linking. Since I'm not that net savvy, I'm waiting for the guy to provide more info about this, but we should probably discuss it here anyway: To our more tech and net-experienced members - does linking to our wiki via our forum signatures (as suggested and encouraged by our staff during the move last year) actually count as spam in Google's eyes and hurt our search ranking? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:04, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
:No. The worst that Google would do would be to ignore the links for the purposes of ranking. If Google ''did'' demote sites based on forum signatures, people would start putting links to their competitor's sites in their signatures. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:23, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

== WTF? ==

Why does [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]] even exist? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:35, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

== Obscure BW comic, anyone? ==

Alright for the past while now, I've been looking up and adding in obscure Beast Wars products. I remembered both the Mutating Card Game and both Jigsaw Puzzles, and I've already taken note to add those in. But one piece of memorabilia that has still eluded me is a really old comic... My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, and I can't quite recall if it was a seperate mini-comic from the two-pack of "Optimus vs. Megatron!" or if the scenes I'm remembering are part of that comic as well.
The only scenes I recall from said comic are the opening, where a pre-earth mode Cheetor peeks through some vegetation to reveal a (very small) crystal. The subsequent dialog explained that they had to take on beast modes to overcome the toxic radiation of the crystal (much like the tv show).
Anyone has any similar recollection? Or if anyone has scans of the "Optimus vs. Megatron!" mini-comic to clear up wether or not it is a scene from that comic that I'm remembering, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I hope I'm not going crazy and remembering a comic that doesn't exist, because as far as I can tell, it's not listed on the Beast Wars comics page. Thanks --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:23, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

:It's not the "Optimus Primal Vs. Megatron!" comic, that one starts with Primal(in beast mode) flying in the sky, and then Cheetor running in the dark with a glow in his eyes. Unless you mistake the sparkle in his eyes for a crystal, it's not the same comic.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== Categories for modes? ==

I've been trying to find out which transformer one of my old toys is, and I'd hoped I could compare it against each of the transformers with an aeroplane mode - but I couldn't find such a list. So I wondered whether it would be a good idea to have categories for the transformers' modes, so I could go to [[:Category:Aeroplanes]] and look it up like that. Good idea? I'm not volunteering to do the legwork :-) [[Special:Contributions/86.7.22.40|86.7.22.40]] 06:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:[http://tfu.info/ID/index.htm This external link] might help. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:56, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Notes" ==
When did we start changing all the "Trivia" subheaders to "Notes"? ...And why even bother?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 20:17, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:Someone stated that they hated the header "Trivia" as it made the info seem inconsequential when sometimes it was actually useful/relevant, and those of us who thought they had a point started going along with that thought. (Although much to my annoyance I don't recall off-hand who said it or where, other than I think maybe it was on one of the Shattered Glass articles.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::It becomes irritating to me since "Notes" was solely confined to the comics and media articles and "Trivia" was confined to character and toy pages, so now we've got a bunch of random character pages with a "Notes" section (Hot Rod character page, for instance) and others with a "Trivia" section (Hot Rod toy page, for instance) for no particular reason. It looks sloppy and I have no idea whether I should be trying to track down and reset the headings to one or the other or if I'll get warned for it.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 23:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::"Someone" was probably me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:16, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, you're our resident cruft inquisition!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I think some page's contents in the Trivia sections is, um, mixed up with notes (relevant but can't be put in other section) and trivia (a little irrelevant BUT notable) things. So, maybe page like this would still need a trivia section, that is, separate their Trivia section into Trivia and Notes section. Of course, that may involve subjective view of the users who edit the page.--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:19, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::So are we going to decide on some form of consistent change or just use the two words randomly?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 02:31, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've been changing pages to "Notes" as I work them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:34, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It'd also be a fairly easy bot request.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:38, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Easy as long as you have a full list of the pages on the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:39, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::It's not as simple as it might appear - we have [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|episode pages]] with Notes sections with Trivia subsections, so the bot would have to take that into account (and a blanket change of #Trivia anchors wouldn't be possible because some will be legitimately pointing to those Trivia sections). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::In the case of the bot request I made, I specifically said to replace <nowiki>==Trivia==</nowiki> with <nowiki>==Notes==</nowiki>. The pages you reference have <nowiki>===Trivia===</nowiki>, which should be possible to exclude in a search.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:54, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Preventing direct image linking ==

As we know, the wiki costs a fair bit to run and early on in our post Bookworm crash server move, it used more bandwidth than our bosses calculated, so the last thing we need is people going around directly linking images off of our server for forums or even their blogs or whatever (The [[Mountain Dew Robot]]s logo was one of our most popular articles... because some idiot linked the image to his website). Is there any way for us to prevent this? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:54, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes and no.
:Yes in the sense that it's pretty easy to create an .htaccess file that redirects hotlinks in some way.
:No in the sense that it might break the GoBoxes, if there isn't some way to make it so that the rewrite rules allow just the GoBox images to be hotlinked. Hrm. Although I think the GoBoxes are all PNGs, and we have very few PNGs as normal images, so it might not be ''that'' big a workaround problem. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, all the gobox images are in their own folder anyway, so it's simple enough to exclude them. This is probably a REALLY good idea; somebody give me a suitable (and tiny) replacement image and I'll try to make it so. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 08:45, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on what you had in mind. You could either go the route of just making a one pixel GIF (i.e. smallest image possible), or maybe use our logo with "no hotlinking permitted" written on it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:01, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Goatse. Or the nearest TF equivalent of "ridiculous shock image." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:00, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Anything from Kiss Players, then. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:09, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::...can we still let me inline images on my blog? Can we make exceptions? Because sometimes I do that, because it's technically me paying for the bandwidth anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:17, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Whitelisting domains is easy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::I'm not extremely savvy with that kind of stuff (most of my knowledge coming from archived talkpages on this wiki), so I have no idea whether it's possible.
:::::::What ''is'' a goatse, anyway? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::You don't want to know if you don't already. Trust me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Sorry I asked.
:::::::::*remembers the vandal that came in and messed with some talk pages* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::''"Or the nearest TF equivalent"'' - Something like [[:Image:Tftm1986e.jpg|this]], you mean? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:50, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Something more like [[:Image:LegionRape1.jpg|this]] would be "the nearest TF equivalent", surely. [Or, potentially even more disturbing, [[:Image:AtariScream.jpg|this]].] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:07, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Even Kiss Players is only about a 3 on the shock meter compared to Goatse. An image of Pat Lee might be appropriate... I suggest sticking to something small anyway, otherwise the bandwidth problem is still there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:41, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::How about [[:Image:Siestacron.gif|this]] with something like "You have found The Void." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:52, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I vote for Pat Lee. That's awesome. BANDWIDTH SUPERSTAR! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 18:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, the GoBoxes are fairly bandwidth-light, right? What if we did a variation on them, with the leeched image replaced with a notice that the image was leeched, and encouraging them to go to TFWiki.net to learn about Transformers?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:57, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:I stand by my Kiss Players suggestion. That or the image of dead Prime from TFTM with a tagline at the bottom saying "This image is dead due to hotlinking." --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
::Rosicrucian has the right idea. We make it work for us, rather than just 'punish' the people doing it. We don't try to shock or dismay, just state that hotlinking is bad (m'kay?) and that tfwiki.net is the place to learn about Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

:FFN brought up an important issue! (FFN also totally forgot about this immediately after posting the original question and only just read this discussion.) And yeah, I totally forgot about the Go-Box. Since I'm not on the Allspark, I've never really seen the go box in use, other than Derrik Wyatt's blog. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:22, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Quintessa.jpg|thumb|250px]]
::'''This''' is about the most vindictively confusing thing you could spike someone with, IMO. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:47, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::USE IT. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

== GoBots on this wiki ==
===Initial kick-off===
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[Tonka GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Depth of coverage?===
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===Some initial chime-ins===

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?===

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights ====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Canon or not-canon====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Marvelverse side-discussion redux====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
::Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
:::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
:::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

====Multiverse side-discussion====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
:::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

===*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.===

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (G1)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

===A potential solution===
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less that the ours due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

== Audio file problems - they don't seem to work ==
I don't think we ever resolved this when Derik brought it up a long time ago, but whatever script we use for audio files doesn't work, at least it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. On Wikia wikis, when you click on a "listen to this audio file", your browser should activate java, buffer the ogg file and play it. However, on TFWiki, the browser merely tries to download the file, not play it. If you choose to open the file via your browser's download dialogue, the file downloads into your temp files and plays it off the nearest compatible media player, which is a *''remarkably''* roundabout way of doing things. Is there any way we can fix this? (I'm using Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 6)--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:19, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm assuming that Wikia must have some embedded audio file player installed or something, which is probably doable via an extension. I have to admit I don't see it as a high priority... having the browser call up a helper file is a normal way of handling such things, plus I like being able to download and save the file.
:Not only that, but we barely have any audio files to worry about... I think the Scene Transition page is the only article I've come across that has an appreciable number of audio files on it. Although now that I think about it, I wonder if creating WAVs of characters' main quotes where possible might be an interesting idea, to give samples of what characters sound like. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:09, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Downloading - well, there's the minor issue that the majority of our users will be unable to play .ogg files anyway, for even if codecs are easily had, it's a fairly obscure format. Hell, I never even heard of it until 2005. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:27, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::WinAmp plays OGGs just fine out-of-the-box, among a number of other media players out there, so I don't see an issue. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:35, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:In case we want to install an extension to handle this: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:50, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

== Editing Go Boxes? ==
I've utterly failed at finding a guide to editing a Go Box address, so I figured I'd just note that the Go Box for "Tankor (ROTF)" instead links to a blank "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" page for some reason. {{unsigned|MCRG Again}}
:Fixed. Someone put the destination page down as "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" in [[Template:Goicons]], thus causing the GoBox to send you to a non-existent page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== When was the last Database backup? ==

Just curious. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:That is exactly why we need that "Database last backed-up by: (insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)." thing someone suggested a long time ago. That way, we may avoid Bookworm Crash 2.0. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:15, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Of course, one of the major causes of The Bookworm Event was that corrupt or otherwise failed backups were being registered as successful. That backups are regularly checked is just as important as backups being made in the first place, and "(insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)" wouldn't prove that. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::At least we know if there ''is'' a backup to check at all. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::By us, manually? I dunno. We pay for automatic backups every week as part of our hosting. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah, that last one is slightly more reassuring.
:::I mean-- they're the same automatic backups Bookworm was theoretically making, but IIRC the current host was picked (in part) for having a good reputation for such things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:32, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::McFly confirmed [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive41#Googlejuice_-_Bad_News_Everyone|a while back]] that the auto backups were working, so hopefully they still are. Good news for when we eventually upgrade the software! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Dimensional Interfacer

2009-10-21T00:21:37Z

76.28.72.27:

Hey, Jim; any interest in documenting on this page what the levels besides 1, 21, and 22 are? (Of the ones Braxis showed us before Cy-Kill got impatient and jumped straight to 21) [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:23, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Was interested enough to check it out myself:

'''Level 2''' = orange sky, lots of smiling pointy eared green gremlin creatures playing happily among many tree branches. Kinda look like little, happy Grinches.

'''Level 4''' = Blue sky with purple clouds, we see three fanged, 4-tenticled orange frogish-things fighting (one uses it's tenticle as a stretchy whip) in a craggy bare tree.

'''Level 5''' = baren stone looking plains with jagged mountainscape in distance. A fierce, large grey bipedal dragon/dinosaur-beast roars and poses menacingly.

What I find interesting is that Cy-kill seems to be opperating under the assumption that the higher the "Dimensional level" above their own the more powerfull and fierce the beings there will be. Nothing in the episode supports that, but he pretty clearly beleaves it when he grabs the machine and pulls a "Spinal Tap" and turns it up to "21". If true the average TF must be godlike compared to the average GoBot, likely Cy-Kill was just being a doof though. (ZacWilliam, not signed in)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:21, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Cy-Kill (GoBots)

2009-10-20T13:31:57Z

76.28.72.27: /* Poor Image Locaton? */ new section

==Hikayat al-Amaliqa==
The Challenge of the GoBots was dubbed in Arabic (notably long before any Transformers cartoon) and all the characters had distinctedly different names than their English counterparts (in contrast to Transformers, which kept their original names in Arabic, with a [[Deathsaurus (Victory)|few]] [[Bumblebee (Animated)|exceptions]]). I was wondering if I should add the Arabic names to the GoBot articles? I mean, do these articles actually refer to the Challenge of the GoBot characters, or just the GoBots in the TransTech cross-universe story? -- [[User:Ziyad|Ziyad]] 19:35, 15 August 2009 (EDT)
:Since we appear to only be covering the Transformers fiction that the GoBots characters have appeared in, probably neither. --[[User:Professor Icepick|Professor Icepick]] 20:09, 15 August 2009 (EDT)

== Personality Profile? ==

Ok, I want to get a feel for how deep we want to go into these characters. I know we're sticking to events and story that take place in Transformers fiction only (not sure I always 100% agree with that, but I understand why we're doing it). But what about basic personality? I mean the main "Character Profile" paragraph at the top of the page is really sparse here. If you've watched Go-bots there is certainly more that can be said to flesh out who Cy-kill is, his personality and powers, but he hasn't really demonstrated any of that personality in his VERY brief TF appearence. Is it still fair game to add it here (within reason) to give a better idea of who Cy-kill is? Or do we want to hew really very strict to the "only in TF stuff" guidline? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 10:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's being debated at the Community Portal. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:54, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Poor Image Locaton? ==

Is there a reason there's an image of Cy-kill at the bottom of the page but not the top? I realise there's no "in-universe" pic of him to use, but if we're cool putting a pic from the GoBots toon on here at all, why not put it in the spot where it would look nicer and fill a void? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 09:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-10-20T12:20:38Z

76.28.72.27: /* GoBots on this wiki */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Marvel UK issue pages ==

I feel that we need to make a change with how we handle Marvel UK comic issues. The UK comics split most of its stories up over multiple issues, and even reprinted some of the split up in a ''different'' way. This has led the story articles to become bloated with non-story info (covers, letter pages, other comics from the same issue, contests, ads) for multiple issues on a single story page. Also, navigating the UK comic is a pain in the ass, as many issues having two stories (one issue has ''three''!), as well as the reprints.

Here's what I suggest we do:

* '''Make "hub" pages for the individual issues.''' These pages will cover issue-specific things. Those UK cover scans clogging up every Marvel Transformer story? They go here. As does information from that issue's letter pages, ads, TransFormations, and anything else that isn't a part of the actual stories. Also, there will be a list of what each issue contains, mostly the TOC from the issue itself. Non-Transformers backup strips (Machine Man, Action Force) should need nothing more beyond the name of the series and the title of the story unless more info is given in the cover, letters page, TransFormations, Coming Attractions or the like. The TOC will also have links to our story articles.

*'''Leave the story articles mostly unchanged''' The UK comic usually treated the stories like serials (think the early Flash Gotdon films or the original Doctor Who series), so splitting them up makes no sense. Aside from moving the issue-specific stuff to the hub pages, the only changes needed will be removing the story navigation box from the UK-original stories, removal of the UK navigation from the stories written for the US comic, and adding any needed "Reprinted in" links, and putting "Originally printed in" links on the stories written for the UK comic.

Marvel US 33 & 34 (Man of Iron!) and Action Force 24-27 (Ancient Relics!) would be handled in the same way. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:40, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:So you're suggesting that ''any'' issue which contained multiple discontinuous stories get a page for the issue, and a page for both stories? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:37, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:: Not exactly. Marvel UK is a special case because these multiple discontinuous stories are broken up over multiple issues. We would still have one page for Time Wars. I'll put together a sample tommorow. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:51, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::I have a ''very'' rough example at [[User:FortMax/Sandbox]]. The main reason I feel this needs to be done is because not only does the UK comic non only have multiple stories in each issue, these stories get spread out over multiple issues. For example, [[Time Wars]] was printed over seven issues. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 12:04, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::That makes sense... a 'landing page.' I'm tentatively in favor of it... but I'd like to see what others say. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:40, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
::::I think this is a really good idea, because it enables us to show the very different format of the UK comic. Formats, in fact - something I didn't realise till I completed my collection is how ''very'' different the first 30 or so issues are from the rest. More like a robot enthusiast's magazine than a comic, and much more 'British' in feel. Unfortunately I've only got my scanned copies of issues 1-5 to work from at the moment, but I can mock something up to show you what I mean. --[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 06:25, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::I've never been overly happy that a big, "blockbuster-that-changes-everything" story like Target: 2006 or The Legacy of Unicron only gets one issue, whereas, say, the issues leading up to US #75 get a page each. There's examples of serial storytelling and individual-issue focuses (eg, Prime surrendering, or the introduction of the Wreckers) in each. [[User:LiamK|LiamK]] 09:25, 12 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've done a fair bit across the UK comics lately and I'd be hugely in favour of breaking T:2006 (especially) into its component issues - just because they weren't individually named they get lumped together in one article which I think does a great disservice to the story. I'd compare it to a six-issue series like Devastation which gets six pages labelled issue 1, issue 2 and so forth, so I don't think articles called Target: 2006 issue 1, Target: 2006 issue 2 etc. would necessarily be beyond the pale. I don't know how far I'd want to take it though - splitting up stories like City of Fear or Legion of the Lost seems a bit pointless, more so The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire which wasn't meant to be split in the first place. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm in favour. I also think that a standard link to the appropriate letters page on transfans.net (similar to the way we do tfu.info for toys) wouldn't go amiss. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:07, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

::::I'm also in favour. This is the approach I took on Joepedia for the weekly Action Force comics where there are similar problems - see [http://gijoe.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Force_%28weekly%29] for how it works on the individual issues. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 07:59, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
:If you are taking the navigation off the stories, won't that make it more difficult to click through the UK continuity, from one story to the next one, continuity-wise? Then again, I'm not super familiar with the UK comics, maybe it is so complicated that that feature is basically broken as it is. But if the current story-based nav works I'd like to keep that as well as a issue-to-issue nav. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:39, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

==Can the nav-template images be variables?==
For example: The [[:Template:Nav-henkei|''Henkei! Henkei!'' nav-template]] uses the logo from the toy packaging, since that applies to the majority of the pages the template is on. However, the [[Henkei! Henkei! (Comic Bun Bun)|Comic Bun Bun ''Henkei!'' material]]
uses a completely different logo design, and it would be nice to be able to substitute it for just that page. This is one of several times I've wanted to be able to do that, and maybe there's a simple way to designate the image as a replaceable variable, but my markup-fu is weak. Any help is appreciated. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:35, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:<s>The answer seems to be "no"... for some reason, even with a default set in the parameter, the imagemap code refuses to parse the parameter's info.</s>
:<s>You could always just post the entire code of the navigation template manually on that one page with the logo code swapped...</s> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:NM, I figured it out. You should be able to do this now:
:<nowiki>{{nav-henkei|logo=(filename)|size=(number)(unit)}}</nowiki>
:It's set up so that if the parameters aren't given, it'll just display the default, so you don't need to change the pages that do use the typical logo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:36, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::Awesooooooooome, thank you. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:32, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
:::No problem. :) Let me know if you need any of the other navs altered, although you should be able to just copy and paste the code and change the defaults... (actually, with my [[User:Jeysie/FranchiseNavs|idea for a code revamp]], I wonder if it might be possible to just have one nav template with all variables...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:22, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Hmm, I didn't know you were playing around with franchise-nav revisions. I actually have a grand proposal cooking up in my head for a full breadcrumb-trail nav revamp that would be applicable to basically any non-character/item/place article. The idea being that if you're at, say, an article about a comic issue, there would be a nav in the corner with links to the series, franchise, and continuity family going up in a column. And if you're at a series-article, you would be one step up in that chain, and the nav would have links to all the other series in that franchise (presented in the current style), as well as the vertically-arranged "title" links to the franchise and continuity family. Then if you're at a franchise, you get links to the other franchises in that continuity family, plus the continuity family itself. And, finally, the continuity-family articles themselves would have a nav with links to the other families. It would be a change in functionality to the effect that the cluster of little links would always be lateral, and digging down into more specific topics would require links within the articles themselves. Currently that's the case with most articles, the exception being franchises. But I think it would be incredibly awesome to have that kind of breadcrumb-trail so a reader always knows where he or she is in the multiverse at large. Plus it would help clarify how the hierarchy of families and franchises and series and so on actually works in specific cases, since that's often been a source of confusion and argument.
::::But I figure I should cobble together a working sample of some sort before I formally present the idea, and I think I might need some more markup-fu before that's even possible. Or I could make a facsimile in Flash or something... Anyway, at the very least, I think having the ability to swap out the logo image is actually a step towards making this idea happen. So thanks again!
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, my current idea was mainly just trying to simplify the existing coding a little, as well as adding some prev/next links to the continuity family section. I think the big problem with breadcrumb links is that people would have to put them in by hand, which would make filling in comic stories even more work than it already is. The "continuity family" section of the comicnav template already tends to be pretty inconsistent sometimes depending on how the person creating the page chooses to link it. (In other words, it's a nice idea, but it'd be too contingent on people filling it in correctly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:41, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The episode nav template uses standard strings to identify continuities (like "g1toon") and then uses look-up tables to find the proper series page link for this, the proper "human-readable" for that link and even look up how many episodes there are in the series, and create automatic prev/next links as long as you give it an episode number.
:::::::The reason we use strings instead of pagenames is '''1)''' they're shorter, simpler, cleaner, more standardized... '''2)''' it means that if the page moves (or we change our mind on the naming convention) we only have to change it in ''one place'' in the lookup tables, and the link changes on hundreds of pages.
:::::::What I'm saying is... you DON'T need to force users to fill in series/franchise/family. ...just fill in the SERIES. Let the template fill in the rest! (And let you manually override the lookup if you explicitly provide variables, for maximum flexability.)
:::::::But that's not a system you can throw together by trial and error; it needs proper architecture planning or it'll be a godawful mess.
:::::::I guess what I'm saying is... if we really want to rationalize and standardize the major templates on the wiki... we need a serious meta-talk about what that means, in the broadest possible scope. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, the problem is... I agree it'd be pretty easy to auto-breadcrumb the TV series. But when you start getting into things like the comics and text stories, you start running into many different miniseries and individual issues, all of which fit into different continuities. I think the continuity family is already enough info for those, provided we make sure they all point to the right ones. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:48, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::That's not exactly a 'problem' as it's conventionally thought of. You could set up auto-fill-ins for the 6 most commons comics-- which would cover 70-80% of everything, but let manual values be set for the rest (or not set) to the level of detail you desire. No solution has to be 100% you know. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:05, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::No, but for stuff like the Marvel Comics it would take just as long to copy and paste in manual info as it would to paste in the new code, after all. So it's the new pages where people would have one more thing to add in that you'd really need to worry about, if it's part of that other 20%. Whereas I agree that new TV series episodes would get to have the benefit of auto-ness.
::::::::::I guess it just seems like a lot of work for little benefit, seeing as how the continuity part of the nav pretty much covers all the context necessary. Not that I don't think it's possible the ep/comicnav could use some overhaul (though what exactly I don't know; they both seem pretty complete to me), just that I don't think breadcrumbs would be an effective expenditure of time. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:43, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::::::::I'm pretty much in agreement with that last sentiment, which is one of the reasons why I'm not technically proposing my idea yet. It needs a more concrete starting point (like a mock-up design) from which all the discussion and probably argument can branch. I have my own notions about how it could be set up in a way that wouldn't involve as much work or personal discretion as Jeysie suggests, but... well, now's not the time. Maybe later. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:12, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::So what needs revision? The episode templates-- fine. And the comic issues. And the franchise navigation. And a standard breadcrumbing system... but what else? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:17, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I've noticed on the Marvel wiki that the "writer"/"artist" text in their issue infoboxes links to [[:Category: Writers]]. I'd liek us ot consider adding this. (Also, there's something about the size or spacing of their infoboxes I just ''like''... I think we might want to take a look at 'em when we get around to recoding.)

::::::Derik points out that in such a scenario, the breakcrumb need not be built into (for example) the episode infobox template. The more elegant solutions is something like:
<pre><nowiki> {{episode
|breadcrumb= {{breadcrumb
|continuity_family=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
|franchise=[[Armada (franchise)|]]
|series=[[Armada (cartoon)|cartoon]]
}}
}}</nowiki></pre>
::::::...where you'd be pass the whole breadcrumb template as a parameter to another template. That way if the breadcrumb also has to show up in other templates... there's a standard code, standard styling, etc. Cleaner simpler code, easier to maintain, more universal, easier to work with, less percussive maintenence, etc.
::::::That's not a solution to everything though, because we've got two prev/next/series navs for comics, and some of the Marvel issues could use ''four'' or more. Stacking 4 of those things is retarded, and pointless. We need a more rational means of addressing republished stuff. I went to look up when a certain Marvel UK issue was published the other day and we '''didn't have the information'''. ...because it was published in the US first, and our template only has one "pub date" field. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

::Sankyuu! Henkei needs a bit more love. :D --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 22:59, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

===CSS rationalization===
While discussing rewriting our HTML... we should also probably discuss CSS rationalization.

Right now our code has absolutely no regard for what the page looks like printed. (Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed.) Do we want our links to have addresses when printed? For example, I believe CSS could make [[Optimus Prime (G1)|this link]] print like this link ("Optimue Prime (G1)") or like this link ( http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ) or like this link ( tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1) ), any of which would be 'friendlier' for printed-out versions.

Of course, if this was applied to excessively [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PotHole PotHole'd] articles, the text it might become almost unreadable. Perhaps smaller or faded text would make tooting my own horn User:Derik less obtrusive when printed. Regardless what's decided for article text, I strongly believe that ''storylinks'' should have the disambig visible when printing. King of the Hill (Armada episode)

Printing, I grant you, is a fairly minor concern. But what about syndication? A few people are beginning to [http://www.botchthecrab.com/archive/history.asp dynamically syndicate] our content. Botch went to some trouble to remove our messageboxes and various other elements-- he just wanted the guts of the article. If we'd attached standard classes to templates (ones that have '''no CSS''' associated with them as far as TFWiki is concerned) he could have just syndicated the page as-is and hidden those elements with a few lines of CSS! (If nothing else, the storylinks need a class marking them... that seems like something that many would like to hide.)

Live page syndication is clumsy. (And I need to yell at Botch, because IIRC he's doing his in a terrible way, from our server's perspective.) But if we ''encourage'' it, it's another tool in our promotional quiver! (There was a PHP script I was working on the other month that actually has some ''fairly good'' TFWiki-specific syndication. If that was polished and made easy to use, it could have some legs.)

Soto-voice snark aside-- we really need classed like ''.noPrint'' and ''.printOnly.'' And when we redo our episode/issue infoboxes... the tables should be tested to they print nicely, '''and''' we should publish the CSS people can use to turn various 'bits off. (Or a 'general guide to site CSS', if only for our OWN use.)

How about this...? We've been moving a LOT of our code out of HTML and into CSS. One of the effects of this is that simply syndicating [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Package_art&action=render the "rendered" page]... a lot of the HTML layouts are gobbeltygook. Should we have a consideration for syndicators who don't include our CSS file? Maybe templates we know are unlikely to be wanted can be flagged with a ''.noSyndicate'' class, making it easy to hide them? Or we should have a Syndicate.css file that includes the bare-minimum CSS code for templates to lay out right? Should ''some'' templates (<nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki>, for instance) be rewritten so that they will render in a readable (if not ideal) fashion even if no css is included? Is there a "scale" these questions all fall on... a sort of "how important is this element to the content of the page?" spectum, where at the low end we don't care and tell people to hide it, at the middle we provide identifying tags so they can be hidden, or a truncated CSS file so they render nice, and at the high end we write the HTML so the element will always be readable even without CSS to make it pretty? (That last one means code that's less contextual. Where do our priorities lie?)

These are philosophical issues. None are especially high priority, but the "cost" of addressing them is relatively tiny, so if we're doing some thorough redesigning... it'd be a good idea.

Some elements we have (like main pages) sometimes get quite "big" (laid out in a fashion that accepts a minimum of 500+ pixels wide.) Is it worth adding a ''.bigElement'' class or a ''.mobile'' class so that those elements can have code written in a mobile device CSS file that reduces their size? Is this even a concern for new mobile devices, which scale easily? How to Kindles handle them? Do e-readers support javascript? What about tablets and wireless internet devices?

More and more, content on the internet is going to be viewed by something other than what we normally think of as a "web browser," and because web-''developers'' spend all their time in web browsers they often neglect these outlets. We do not have to bend over backward to accommodate these technologies... if problems do arise, they will probably be the 90/10 sort; 90% of the solution/benefit can be accomplished with just 10% of the effort. '''Example:''' When [http://tformers.com a certain news site] rolled out their home page redesign several years ago, it mis-rendered on some versions of Safari-- pushing the story content below the left navigation bar. In short... the page appeared '''blank'''. This problem remained unfixed for almost a year-- it was caused by the nav rendering just ''one'' pixel too wide, pushing a floated layout down. This remained unfixed for almost a year. I'm sure that this bug only affected maybe 1% of site visitors. But after a year of blank pages... that 1% also probably '''stopped visiting'''. 1% over the course of a year is a ''lot'' of lost pageviews, it's like having your site be down for 3 days.

Anyway... that's my rant. There's no solutions there... just ideas/concerns/meta.

If other people are interested in discussing this sort of thing... may I suggest we create a dumping ground at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Quantum Cycle Upgrade]] where we can gather thoughts/issues about long-term infrastructure upgrades? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:35, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

:Picking up on just one thing for now:
::''Those messageboxes at the top of pages probably don't need to be there when printed''
:Thing about that is that they DO contain information you might want when printed that isn't contained elsewhere on a page (the writer of a story, for instance).
:I could certainly see a certain degree of stripping down the messageboxen for printing as a good idea (take a look at http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=End_of_the_Road!_(US)&printable=yes - it's not even just the {{tl|comicstory}} [which has become a bad name for that template as its' uses have multiplied...] box - the {{tl|featuredcharacters}} box further down could do with being stripped for print. And I'm not sure the {{tl|disambig2}} needs to be visible at all.), but I'm not sure about hiding them by default. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:15, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
::I agree about stripping those kinds of things down... but when I said "messageboxes" I meant things like "picsneeded"; those have an ''enormous'' footprint, and they print. Their ''entire purpose'' is to alert editors of page deficiencies.... but people reading print-outs aren't editing those the pages, it's pointless. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:32, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah. I wasn't thinking of those, just {{tl|comicstory}} and {{tl|episode}}. Yeah, removing {{tl|picsneeded}} and its ilk would make sense. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:20, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

===Jeysie's infobox===
<div style="border:solid 2px #def;float:right;margin:0 1em 1em 1em;text-align:center;width:300px;">
'''Prisoner of War!'''
<div style="margin:1em .25em .5em .25em;">[[Image:MarvelUS-03.jpg|frameless|230px]] Is he strong? Listen, [[Bud]], he made Megatron go thud.</div>
{|cellspacing="0" style="margin:.5em 0;text-align:left;width:100%;"
|-
!colspan="2" style="background:#def;margin:0;padding:.5em 0;text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics]]
|-
!style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;"|Cover date
|style="padding:.5em .5em .2em .5em;text-align:right;"|January 1985
|-
!style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;"|Street date
|style="padding:.2em .5em .5em .5em;text-align:right;"|[[October 2]], 1984
|-
|colspan="2" style="text-align:center;"|[[Marvel Comics continuity]]
|}
{|style="background:#def;padding:.5em 0;width:100%;"
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #3
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|-
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[Power Play!|«]]
![[The Transformers (Marvel comic)#Marvel UK|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #5–6
!style="border:outset 3px #9cf;font-size:125%;padding:0 .2em;"|[[The Last Stand|»]]
|}
{|style="padding:.5em;text-align:right;width:100%;"
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Writer
|[[Jim Salicrup]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Penciler
|[[Frank Springer]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Inker
|[[Kim DeMulder]], [[Jim Esposito]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Colorist
|[[Nelson Yomtov]]
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Letterers
|[[Janice Chiang]] & Others
|-
!style="text-align:left;"|Editor
|[[Bob Budiansky]]
|}
</div>
I remember doing this rough tweak idea based on Derik's comment that he liked the Marvel wiki's infobox.

Not very ''much'' of a tweak, admittedly, as I actually like our current setup for the most part. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:46, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Okay, some things:
:#{{tl|comicstory}} is used for a LOT more than, well, comic stories, to the point that the template name is bad. But unless you want to go and find/change all of those uses (and they're pretty diverse, I don't think you could bot them), it's pretty much impossible to change the broad layout of the template.
:#Moving the back/forward navigation from the top (where it's easily accessible) to a point where it would be ''below the fold'' on netbooks, e-readers and less up to date PCs? Are you seriously suggesting that?!
:Seriously, I don't "get" the ideas behind the layout here at all. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:00, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::They all use pretty much the same setup, actually, if you look at them. I can't think of any usage on text stories and books that is seriously different offhand... they have different credit/info types, yes, but they go visually in the same places. I would probably put things like page count and ISBN in the "publisher" box. 
::And like I said, I was emulating the Marvel wiki infobox, which actually has the navigation at the ''bottom''. But essentially... I wanted to get the title up top, and make a "publisher" section, and a "credits" section... and the navigation made a good visual divider between the last two sections. I agree it's kind of weird, though... I could see moving it back up to the top under the title and just having a thick border in its place between the bottom two sections.
::Like I said, it's pretty minor stuff... I think our infobox is just about perfect as-is, really. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:10, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

:::It's not just stories. The [[Hasbro Q&A]] pages use it. The Collectors' Club Magazine pages use it, along with other non-story content from magazines, etc. What's the "title" in those instances?
:::Moreover, why move the title to the top at all? The title is already written in big letters at the top of the page on a single-story page, or at the top of the section on multi-story pages. Below the cover is a good place for it.
:::And the cover date & street date are hanging in no-man's land here, with no association with any relevant information - it looks like ''Marvel Comics'' had a street date of Oct 2, 1984.- [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:37, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::We'd leave the title off. You know, just like we do for miniseries ''already''? Sheesh, I love it when people complain about something "new" without realizing the wiki already does it.</sarcasm>
::::That said, if we move the navigation back to the top, we could move the title back under the picture again. I guess it just seems to me like it's the "first" bit of info about a book, and you could use your comment as an argument towards leaving out the title bit entirely anyway.
::::I like my publisher idea, though... it separates the meta-info about the book from the credits. And the publisher's name makes the most logical sense to use in a section heading. Like you said, the title's at the top, so I have a hard time thinking anyone's going to think the street date has to do with the publisher's name instead of the issue the article's about. I like to assume basic intelligence on the part of the reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::Our existing comicstory template is already deficient in presenting multi-part stories: I went to look up when [[Target: 2006]] was published... and discovered it had no date. And why ''should'' it? The article spans several issues, with no single correct date to give!
:::(I happen to think presenting the UK stories in 1 article like this is stupid... but I lost that fight a long time ago, so the template might as well address it well.) -23:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Er. What's wrong with just listing all the dates in the date section, or a range of dates? We already do that for Man of Iron, IIRC. I don't see what the big deal is there. It's a date field... no reason it can't have more than one date in it.
::::The only accommodation I might make is adding extra "story 2" credits to make credits for multiple stories a bit tidier, but that's less a major change and more just a tweak. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:53, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

====Counter-proposal====
{{:User:SanityOrMadness/infobox}}
Keeps the basic layout of the current {{tl|comicstory}} (including keeping the '''issue numbers''' rather than the title at the top, which I consider key), but separates the meta-info from the story info (which is headed by the title, as it should be. I would prefer to use separate infoboxen for separate stories on the same page, but you could have separate subsections for separate stories, each headed by the title, if it was thought desirable). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 08:55, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:I definitely agree with San here that the navigation info ''needs'' to be at the top. It's just counter-intuitive otherwise.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself. We could always do a "if/then" clause so the extra section only shows up if one of the pertinent parameters is used. (I think stacking entire infoboxes might get a bit too cluttered, plus it's nice to see a whole issue's overview right at the top, but I'm willing to see a mockup if someone thinks that might work better.)
::I find myself wondering if continuity should be in the navigation somehow, as then we could potentially tag it as a separate prev/next series if need be. I know that I was reading the Axiom Nexus text stories, for instance, and there seems to be a lack of a good way to show how some stories relate to each other in terms of reading order when the actual publication order in the franchise it's released under has stuff in between. (The Shattered Glass stories at least had the ready excuse of being stuck under that franchise for the navigation...) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::''I like the idea of separate credit sections in the same infobox for separate stories in a single issue, with the titles of each story as the header; I was going to suggest that myself.''
::::Betcha weren't :p [Seriously, with the title up top out of the way, you couldn't do anything of the sort]
::::Anyhoo, the main reason I'm a bit reluctant to put multiple stories together in such a fashion is that it would seem to divorce the latter stories from the infobox with their credits. If they end up so close together that the infoboxen actually '''stack''' and push the info ''away'' from the story in question, put them together in one infobox by all means. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Betcha I was. Because hey, you could put the title of the issue at the top (or not, if the issue doesn't actually have a title), and the title of the individual stories in the credit sections. It's funny how that works. :D
:::::And, like I said, if someone can do a mockup of dual infoboxes that doesn't look silly, I could buy it. As it is, I just think it'd be weird basically having two separate pages on one page. I like the idea of the infobox itself being devoted to the comic issue as a whole. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:01, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

:::I am uncomfortable with the "dual navigation" system simply because... some of these stories have now been published 3 or '''4''' times. No previous/next for them? They don't get credits or publication dates? What if I '''want''' to know when IDW published an issue of "Prey," how many parts of that story they published (IDW doubled up content from 2 UK issues) or anything else important?
:::We're just tossing aside republishing info because our template doesn't support it. Same problem with the dates being left off multi-part stories... if it's nto clear how to add the information, the information becomes lost. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:40, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Isn't the point of the '"dual-navigation" system' to record '''contemporaneous''' republication? [Marvel US in Marvel UK/Marvel G2 in Fleetway G2/IDW Beast Wars & AHM in Titan TF (...actually we don't currently do that last set, although we should)/etc]. That is, we wouldn't record an IDW "Best of the UK" as such even if it was the first such reprinting, because it was twenty years later?
::::If you try to fit ''four'' sets of data in one poor infobox, it would become unmanageably and unreadably large. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:39, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I don't disagree.
:::::Speaking of... right now our navigation at the top of such boxes is (in theory) publication order... but with a weird mix-in of reading order too.
:::::Should it become one or the other? And which is of primary importance? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::...Didn't I more or less say that a few comments above? I think maybe we should have both... the main navigation(s) being publication order, then a third "continuity" section with a link to the issue's continuity and the prev/next reflecting proper reading order. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:12, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The thing about THAT idea is that the issue doesn't necessarily reflect the continuity if you want one infobox per page - take the AHM "coda" issues, or the Animated ''Arrival'' issues as examples, since they have multiple stories on one page. There's no one continuity place for those issues, since they're anthologies which take place out of order. You'd have to do the continuity nav at the ''story'' level, rather than the issue level. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:52, 21 September 2009 (EDT)

I've started work on fleshing out changes at {{tl|Comicstory beta}} (relevant: [[Template:Comicstory beta/Example]]), but there's one major bit that I'm not sure how to deal with - Editors. Sometimes, editors work on the story level (to the point you could have separate editorial teams working on the different stories in the same issue, although I'm not aware of any TF examples off the top of my head), but sometimes they work at the issue level, overseeing a load of non-story content in addition to any stories in the issue (the latter's more common in the UK - US comics tend to have a letters page at most for non-story content). And so I'm having trouble placing where the various editorial credits should go - I've bunged them under a separate "Editorial" header temporarily, but I'm not happy with that - I want them under the story, or under the Publication info... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:00, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
{{--}}

== Images for deletion ==

[[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] has marked a pile of unused images for deletion. Some of them, I suspect, are unused because of the Bookworm crash, like the pictures of Lipoles. I've made a start on some of them, but if anyone wants to pitch in and fix up some of the images we should keep, be my guest! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:59, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:True, part of them are, um, "victims"(sort of) of the Bookworm crash, such as [[:Image:Convoy BT.jpg]] and several others. I think those pictures should be hold and got checked/salvage for a while before being deleted. I've check the [[:Category:To be deleted]], but I can only recognize a few. People can check their watch list or Category:To be deleted to help ID those pictures they(users) know where they(pictures) belong to. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 08:26, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

:I've noticed that several of them aren't "unused" per se--they're not used as images anywhere, but they're still wikilinked to. For example, [[:Image:Fat guard.JPG]] says "There are no pages that link to this file", but if you check "What links here", you'll see that [[Capture the Cube]] does in fact link to it. So before anyone deletes any images, I suggest checking if anything is wikilinking to them first. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 08:42, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I noticed a while back that the section under the image that lists pages which link to it only includes pages where the image is actually embedded. Plus some images are used in the site skin or CSS files, like the logos [[User:Derik|Derik]] set up to appear after links to certain sites. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:30, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Are we intending to resurrect the community-nav template? The images used on it were among those tagged for deletion... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:11, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
:I'll take that as a no. And down to 150 pictures now. Again, if anyone wants to take a look through [[:Category:To be deleted]] in case anything they recognise where the images are supposed to go, please do! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:16, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

Down to 76 images. Most of those left were uploaded during the crash period, so any information about where they were intended to go is lost. Some of them, like Mugheads.jpg, are from lost talk pages. Some, like Tflive_logo_stacked.jpg, might be still useful for something. The two covers for The Ark II probably should be on the appropriate page. Some, like Mort-icons.png and Tf gf 002 back.jpg, I don't have the foggiest what they were intended for... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:23, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== This Day in Transformers History ==
We should try to turn the This Day in Transformers History into an exportable module, like our Go-Boxes. It'll help our SEO by encouraging links back to us as well as give us another source of dynamically-generated deep links to help users discover our content. We have info for all 366 days, we should exploit it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:46, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
:Speaking of history, today is the 25th anniversary of the premiere of the G1 cartoon right? Want to mention that anywhere? --[[User:SuzyP|SuzyP]] 18:35, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

== Boxes gone from disambig templates? ==

I noticed the disambiguation templates don't seem to have those gray boxes behind them anymore. Is this intentional? Because it's confusing. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:16, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Derik shifted the CSS styling into the stylesheet. Your browser probably had the old stylesheet cached, but a shift-reload should fix it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it did actually. Thanks! -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

And they (well, the ones Derik hit anyway) sprouted a thick grey left border in the transition because...? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:34, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!
:Main advantage of switching the disambig boxes to CSS: When you have multiple in a row, they stack prettier without a double-outline between them. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:47, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::''I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!''
::If that's not a Derikism, it deserves to be. (And is the main reason why I'm scared of changing to external CSS rather than inline CSS - you having the keys to the styles virtually unfettered, since those admins who could either override or yank the emopanda CSS mostly either don't know how or are absent much of the time)
::So now we have disambig templates that are unique amongst messageboxen in a particularly... nondescript way. Different enough to be irritating, not different enough to serve any real purpose. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:09, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Eh? Oh, I thought I changed it back. (I remembered why they had a border on the left... I was testing something and decided it didn't work, I didn't realize it was still on.)
:::In theory Scout was going to make some changes last week to move us out of the existing CSS situation with much less living in my dev file... but she seems to have forgotten... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:24, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What was she planning to do? I can have a crack at it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Move a bunch of stuff to [[MediaWiki:common.css]], I expect.
:::::(Note the difference between Common.css [all skins, including the ones no-one uses like Simple and MySkin], Monacobook.css [Monacobook only] and Monobook.css [Monobook only]. Scout [[User_talk:Suki_Brits#.22Fixed.22_Monobook|forgot about Monobook]] the last time common.css was edited. Incidentally, where did she ultimately put those changes? They ain't in the empty Monacobook.css.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I have a suspicion that the plan may be to create a new user class with rights to edit css files here (in which case I don't have the necessary access rights to do so)... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:59, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That was the one. :) Either she forgot, or she tried and it didn't work. I'll bug her when I remember. (It's not like it's pressing... it's been needing doing for some time so it can wait a bit longer.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::And to answer the css question, the changes are in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css this file] which isn't editable through the Mediawiki interface. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:03, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Scout, I have 3 requests."
:::::::"No, no, yes if I don't have to do any work."
:::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Did that ever get done in the end? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== Guess what..... ==

I've just decided to check our statistics for no apparent reason, and we have 9,588 "legitimate content pages", whatever that means. So then I randomly decided to check out the Wikia page (which, by the way, has had the same Featured Article for God-knows-how-long), and guess what?

7,209 pages. We're beating them out by 2,349 pages, which is quite a lot. Who thinks we can hit 10,000 soon? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:15, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:No problem. ...though it's about quality, not quantity. ;) -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:24, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::I can tell you the quality of their articles as well.
::Nonexistent. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:29, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh, you're too harsh. Anyways, I know this wiki's the best 'cause I checked all TF wikis before I've decided to join... -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 15:45, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::I can personally testify, we ''delete'' articles that aren't up to snuff and don't look like they're going to be.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:Now I'm interest in knowing how many articles the original wiki had back before the big split. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 15:57, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::Somewhere around [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Arriving#A_spirit_of_healthy_competition|6890 or so]]. I should note that our current total is artificially inflated by about 75 due to the "ghost" pages causing the macron issue, so our total's nearer 9513 or so. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:36, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::@Silvery: I'm not being that harsh. Here's some examples. And I know, this will give them slightly more traffic.
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Soundwave_(Movie) Their ROTF Soundwave page.]
:::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/All_Hail_Megatron Their All Hail Megatron page. Count the red links.] --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:53, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::You're too harsh in a "hit 'em when they're down" sense. It's called "irony". :P -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 04:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
::::I get a bit of personal pride whenever I compare our Shattered Glass section to theirs. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:11, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I weep whenever i read the Animated articles...Sentinel Prime's page is the best example.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 15:00, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I just removed an ''{ongoing}'' tag from their Animated Perceptor's page. What the hell? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:08, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Also, for some reason, someone back there REALLY liked deleting my stuff. They liked it so much in fact, that my contributions page has been wiped clean. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:23, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Also, Monaco now screws up page layouts when you move mainpics to where they're meant to be! (That's what it does on another wiki I happen to be an admin on, anyway.) Woo-freakin'-hoo. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:37, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[Image:What was wikia thinking.PNG|300px|thumb|Wikia, ''seriously?'']]
:Look at the image, and be confused as to why anyone would want to see the ads? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:36, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::That option was actually put in due to user feedback. It's so they can view pages with the ads still in place and modify the layout to not look like ass.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I just checked their Shattered Glass (comic) page, and hell, they've not even added Soundwave, Rumble, Long Haul...I also feel a bit of pride since I uploaded the images and started writing most of those :) --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 20:00, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

== Reading Order ==
When the wiki began in 2006, reading order was a clear and obvious thing. It was straight publication order-- and even if broken up into minis like Dreamwave did, they followwed a logical "volume" order.

...IDW is nowwhere near that clean. Characters literally leave one aeries, appear in another, bunches of stories are interwoven. I think we should consider creating an IDW "reading order" page, simply because reading order is not the same as publication order, is not the same as chronological order. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:41, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:[[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/IDW-G1 recommended reading order]] :3 --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:10, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== OK.....weird. ==

Did someone *looks at Derik* break the block log, or is it meant to only show blocks up to March this year? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:14, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:Also, how didn't I get an edit conflict when Jimsorenson and I were trying to delete the same duplicate section at the same time?
:Derik, please don't break the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:16, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::Think back to what happened in March.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh yeah.
:::STUPID BOOKWORM! *scream is heard across the world* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:27, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, not everything is Derik's fault. On the other hand, many awesome improvements to the site ''are''.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:56, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I may have been reading a bit too much Community Portal Archives recently. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:23, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Derik breaking things is generally content, template, or presentational related-- despite all the joking, I have only ever broken the core of the site itself once. (And even then, it was for less than 10 minutes, Siph was nice enough to delete the page that was giving the site's database epileptic fits.)
::::::I'm actually rather ''proud'' of that one-- insofar that it was ''supposed'' to be completely impossible, but I somehow managed to do it! (This was back on Bookworm, I suspect their server bog-down issues contributed to making my impossible feat happen.)
::::::When I break stuff it tends to be more localized or cosmetic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:46, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Speaking of local/cosmetic issues, the automatic archive listing on this page does not appear to want to display archive 39.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:48, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::The one that doesn't exist yet?
::::::::Also, [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29#So.2C_Derik_broke_the_site.|This]] is incredibly funny. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:04, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Oh, it most definitely exists. Click on archive 38, then use the archive navigation at the top to go to the next archive. 39 is already populated.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:09, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Vote to move that page to "Things that don't exist". --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::That might be because the nav you're referring to isn't automatic. Just the ones in the individual archives. - {{unsigned|Derik| - who thought there actually were five lights in that TNG ep :p}} 16:03, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

== Something I just came up with..... ==

Because I absolutely loathe our current ''<nowiki>{{caption bastard}}</nowiki>'' tag, I came up with this.

{{messagebox
|justification=left
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the Most Wanted Pages list or the Stubs list.

For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].

|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
}}

--[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:03, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Tough. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:51, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
:You're pretty obsessed with caption edits.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:57, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
::I was very bored that day. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:50, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

{{messagebox
|justification=center
|header=Your humour escapes me, Starscream.
|message_text=If you haven't contributed anything, we'd really rather you didn't simply change jokes or add new ones without adding actual content. This also holds true for removing captions whole-hog or replacing them with "information" that really isn't.
Write an episode summary, check out the [[Special:Wantedpages|Most Wanted Pages]] list or the [[:Category:Stub|Stubs]] list. 
:''For further information, see: [[Project:Caption]].''
|image_name=G1toon_starscream_bawled_out.jpg
|image_width=125px
|mouseover=
|width=100%
|bottomtext={{{1|}}}
}}
:Just a minor layout change. :D --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 09:35, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::Well it definitely looks better now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:39, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

== Keep an Eagle Eye (ROTF) ==

I notice that the first DVD-rips of ROTF have begun to drop-- 3 weeks before the movie is out on DVD. Be wary of a flurry of new screencaps appearing. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:20, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

== TF Wiki link forum signatures = spam = loss of google ranking? ==

Somebody on a Macross forum reported that posting links to their website via forum signatures counted as spam, which took a major hit in their site's google ranking, and it was the same for Digg linking. Since I'm not that net savvy, I'm waiting for the guy to provide more info about this, but we should probably discuss it here anyway: To our more tech and net-experienced members - does linking to our wiki via our forum signatures (as suggested and encouraged by our staff during the move last year) actually count as spam in Google's eyes and hurt our search ranking? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:04, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
:No. The worst that Google would do would be to ignore the links for the purposes of ranking. If Google ''did'' demote sites based on forum signatures, people would start putting links to their competitor's sites in their signatures. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:23, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

== WTF? ==

Why does [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]] even exist? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:35, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

== Obscure BW comic, anyone? ==

Alright for the past while now, I've been looking up and adding in obscure Beast Wars products. I remembered both the Mutating Card Game and both Jigsaw Puzzles, and I've already taken note to add those in. But one piece of memorabilia that has still eluded me is a really old comic... My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, and I can't quite recall if it was a seperate mini-comic from the two-pack of "Optimus vs. Megatron!" or if the scenes I'm remembering are part of that comic as well.
The only scenes I recall from said comic are the opening, where a pre-earth mode Cheetor peeks through some vegetation to reveal a (very small) crystal. The subsequent dialog explained that they had to take on beast modes to overcome the toxic radiation of the crystal (much like the tv show).
Anyone has any similar recollection? Or if anyone has scans of the "Optimus vs. Megatron!" mini-comic to clear up wether or not it is a scene from that comic that I'm remembering, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I hope I'm not going crazy and remembering a comic that doesn't exist, because as far as I can tell, it's not listed on the Beast Wars comics page. Thanks --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:23, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

:It's not the "Optimus Primal Vs. Megatron!" comic, that one starts with Primal(in beast mode) flying in the sky, and then Cheetor running in the dark with a glow in his eyes. Unless you mistake the sparkle in his eyes for a crystal, it's not the same comic.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== Categories for modes? ==

I've been trying to find out which transformer one of my old toys is, and I'd hoped I could compare it against each of the transformers with an aeroplane mode - but I couldn't find such a list. So I wondered whether it would be a good idea to have categories for the transformers' modes, so I could go to [[:Category:Aeroplanes]] and look it up like that. Good idea? I'm not volunteering to do the legwork :-) [[Special:Contributions/86.7.22.40|86.7.22.40]] 06:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:[http://tfu.info/ID/index.htm This external link] might help. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:56, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Notes" ==
When did we start changing all the "Trivia" subheaders to "Notes"? ...And why even bother?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 20:17, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:Someone stated that they hated the header "Trivia" as it made the info seem inconsequential when sometimes it was actually useful/relevant, and those of us who thought they had a point started going along with that thought. (Although much to my annoyance I don't recall off-hand who said it or where, other than I think maybe it was on one of the Shattered Glass articles.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::It becomes irritating to me since "Notes" was solely confined to the comics and media articles and "Trivia" was confined to character and toy pages, so now we've got a bunch of random character pages with a "Notes" section (Hot Rod character page, for instance) and others with a "Trivia" section (Hot Rod toy page, for instance) for no particular reason. It looks sloppy and I have no idea whether I should be trying to track down and reset the headings to one or the other or if I'll get warned for it.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 23:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::"Someone" was probably me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:16, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, you're our resident cruft inquisition!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I think some page's contents in the Trivia sections is, um, mixed up with notes (relevant but can't be put in other section) and trivia (a little irrelevant BUT notable) things. So, maybe page like this would still need a trivia section, that is, separate their Trivia section into Trivia and Notes section. Of course, that may involve subjective view of the users who edit the page.--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:19, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::So are we going to decide on some form of consistent change or just use the two words randomly?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 02:31, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've been changing pages to "Notes" as I work them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:34, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It'd also be a fairly easy bot request.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:38, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Easy as long as you have a full list of the pages on the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:39, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::It's not as simple as it might appear - we have [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|episode pages]] with Notes sections with Trivia subsections, so the bot would have to take that into account (and a blanket change of #Trivia anchors wouldn't be possible because some will be legitimately pointing to those Trivia sections). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::In the case of the bot request I made, I specifically said to replace <nowiki>==Trivia==</nowiki> with <nowiki>==Notes==</nowiki>. The pages you reference have <nowiki>===Trivia===</nowiki>, which should be possible to exclude in a search.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:54, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Preventing direct image linking ==

As we know, the wiki costs a fair bit to run and early on in our post Bookworm crash server move, it used more bandwidth than our bosses calculated, so the last thing we need is people going around directly linking images off of our server for forums or even their blogs or whatever (The [[Mountain Dew Robot]]s logo was one of our most popular articles... because some idiot linked the image to his website). Is there any way for us to prevent this? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:54, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes and no.
:Yes in the sense that it's pretty easy to create an .htaccess file that redirects hotlinks in some way.
:No in the sense that it might break the GoBoxes, if there isn't some way to make it so that the rewrite rules allow just the GoBox images to be hotlinked. Hrm. Although I think the GoBoxes are all PNGs, and we have very few PNGs as normal images, so it might not be ''that'' big a workaround problem. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, all the gobox images are in their own folder anyway, so it's simple enough to exclude them. This is probably a REALLY good idea; somebody give me a suitable (and tiny) replacement image and I'll try to make it so. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 08:45, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on what you had in mind. You could either go the route of just making a one pixel GIF (i.e. smallest image possible), or maybe use our logo with "no hotlinking permitted" written on it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:01, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Goatse. Or the nearest TF equivalent of "ridiculous shock image." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:00, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Anything from Kiss Players, then. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:09, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::...can we still let me inline images on my blog? Can we make exceptions? Because sometimes I do that, because it's technically me paying for the bandwidth anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:17, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Whitelisting domains is easy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::I'm not extremely savvy with that kind of stuff (most of my knowledge coming from archived talkpages on this wiki), so I have no idea whether it's possible.
:::::::What ''is'' a goatse, anyway? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::You don't want to know if you don't already. Trust me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Sorry I asked.
:::::::::*remembers the vandal that came in and messed with some talk pages* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::''"Or the nearest TF equivalent"'' - Something like [[:Image:Tftm1986e.jpg|this]], you mean? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:50, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Something more like [[:Image:LegionRape1.jpg|this]] would be "the nearest TF equivalent", surely. [Or, potentially even more disturbing, [[:Image:AtariScream.jpg|this]].] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:07, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Even Kiss Players is only about a 3 on the shock meter compared to Goatse. An image of Pat Lee might be appropriate... I suggest sticking to something small anyway, otherwise the bandwidth problem is still there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:41, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::How about [[:Image:Siestacron.gif|this]] with something like "You have found The Void." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:52, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I vote for Pat Lee. That's awesome. BANDWIDTH SUPERSTAR! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 18:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, the GoBoxes are fairly bandwidth-light, right? What if we did a variation on them, with the leeched image replaced with a notice that the image was leeched, and encouraging them to go to TFWiki.net to learn about Transformers?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:57, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:I stand by my Kiss Players suggestion. That or the image of dead Prime from TFTM with a tagline at the bottom saying "This image is dead due to hotlinking." --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
::Rosicrucian has the right idea. We make it work for us, rather than just 'punish' the people doing it. We don't try to shock or dismay, just state that hotlinking is bad (m'kay?) and that tfwiki.net is the place to learn about Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

:FFN brought up an important issue! (FFN also totally forgot about this immediately after posting the original question and only just read this discussion.) And yeah, I totally forgot about the Go-Box. Since I'm not on the Allspark, I've never really seen the go box in use, other than Derrik Wyatt's blog. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:22, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Quintessa.jpg|thumb|250px]]
::'''This''' is about the most vindictively confusing thing you could spike someone with, IMO. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:47, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::USE IT. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== GoBots on this wiki ==
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[Tonka GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
:::::Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
:::::::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
:::::::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
:::::::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
:::::::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
:::::::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
:::::::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
:::::::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

== Audio file problems - they don't seem to work ==
I don't think we ever resolved this when Derik brought it up a long time ago, but whatever script we use for audio files doesn't work, at least it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. On Wikia wikis, when you click on a "listen to this audio file", your browser should activate java, buffer the ogg file and play it. However, on TFWiki, the browser merely tries to download the file, not play it. If you choose to open the file via your browser's download dialogue, the file downloads into your temp files and plays it off the nearest compatible media player, which is a *''remarkably''* roundabout way of doing things. Is there any way we can fix this? (I'm using Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 6)--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:19, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm assuming that Wikia must have some embedded audio file player installed or something, which is probably doable via an extension. I have to admit I don't see it as a high priority... having the browser call up a helper file is a normal way of handling such things, plus I like being able to download and save the file.
:Not only that, but we barely have any audio files to worry about... I think the Scene Transition page is the only article I've come across that has an appreciable number of audio files on it. Although now that I think about it, I wonder if creating WAVs of characters' main quotes where possible might be an interesting idea, to give samples of what characters sound like. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:09, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Downloading - well, there's the minor issue that the majority of our users will be unable to play .ogg files anyway, for even if codecs are easily had, it's a fairly obscure format. Hell, I never even heard of it until 2005. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:27, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::WinAmp plays OGGs just fine out-of-the-box, among a number of other media players out there, so I don't see an issue. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:35, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:In case we want to install an extension to handle this: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:50, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

== Editing Go Boxes? ==
I've utterly failed at finding a guide to editing a Go Box address, so I figured I'd just note that the Go Box for "Tankor (ROTF)" instead links to a blank "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" page for some reason. {{unsigned|MCRG Again}}
:Fixed. Someone put the destination page down as "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" in [[Template:Goicons]], thus causing the GoBox to send you to a non-existent page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

Cy-Kill (GoBots)

2009-10-20T12:04:47Z

76.28.72.27: Just fleshed main Personality profile a tad, made it actually describe him some.

{{move|Cy-Kill|He's the only one named "Cy-Kill" in fiction. This should grant him priority.}}
{{disambig3|Cy-Kill}}

:''Cy-Kill is an evil [[Renegade]] from [[Tonka GoBots]].''

'''Cy-Kill''' is a cyborg alien from the planet [[Gobotron]]. Once, long ago, he was one of the greatest of the heroic [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardians]]. Along with his partner [[Leader 1]], Cy-kill was even named a High Protector of their world. Though originally content to share power with his friend, when Leader 1's fame began to eclipse his own he chaffed at the idea of being "lesser" to anyone. His boundless pride, ego and ambition to power lead him to rebel and take command of the scattered Renegade forces. If he could not rule Gobotron by popular acclaim he would take it by force! Cy-kill seems to be quite at home in the role of brutal, ambitious warlord and would be world-conqueror. He was having a good time, fighting those do-gooder Guardians, when suddenly his entire dimension was placed in dire peril. Well, crap.

He's very [[Megatron (BW)|theatrical]].

==Fiction==
===''Timelines''===
The [[Doctor B|Doctor]]'s report was clear. Due to cosmological interference with another universe, a great [[Cataclysm (event)|Cataclysm]] was destroying their own. This other universe was populated by [[Transformer|strange, robot creatures]], struggling through a similar galaxy-spanning civil war.

There was no saving their own universe, and no rational reason to destroy the universe that was removing theirs. Cy-Kill and his rival, [[Leader-1 (GoBots)|Leader-1]] assembled their respective factions, explained their dire situation, and put together a team. This team would reconfigure their bodies to disguise themselves amongst these otherdimensional robots, use the [[Dimensional Interfacer]] to travel to their universe, and seek out help. {{storylink|Withered Hope}}

==Notes==
[[Image:Cykillgobots.jpg|right|150px|thumb|He's got the touch.]]
* In case you haven't figured it out already, Cy-Kill is totally the guy from ''Challenge of the GoBots''. For real!

* Cy-Kill is constantly "easter egged" in [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|various Transformers stories]]. But, like, GoBots were totally ''lame'', so wouldn't it be ''hilarious'' if he was repeatedly killed over and over again because he was ''lame''? Yeah!

* A character identical to Cy-Kill was seen in the processing center of [[Axiom Nexus]] in "[[Transcendent: Part 1]]", not far from the interdimensional GoBot exploration team. It seems unlikely this could have been the ''actual, in-story'' Cy-Kill, as this individual had not adopted a new disguise which was essential for the GoBot explorers. The identity and origin of this "Cy-Kill" remain a mystery.

==External links==
* [http://tfu.info/Gobots/Renegades/Cy-Kill/cy-kill.htm GoBots Cy-Kill at TFU.info]
* [http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=XNg9AAAAEBAJ&dq=convertible+Robot+toy Cy-Kill's patent]

[[Category:Renegades]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]

Talk:Cy-Kill (GoBots)

2009-10-19T14:51:36Z

76.28.72.27: /* Personality Profile? */ new section

Talk:Skystalker (ROTF)

2009-10-15T18:58:44Z

76.28.72.27: /* Alt mode? */ new section

== Disambiguation ==

I realize that there are not 3 actual Skystalkers, but there are many other names that could easily be confused with it. Is the 3 characters sharing a name an absolute rule or a more general guide? The following may need disambiguating with Skystalker: [[Denebian Stalker]], [[Stalker]], [[Nightstalker]], [[Snowstalker]], and [[Sparkstalker]]. Also [[Luke Skywalker]] and [[Skyscorcher]] seem very similar (more so than all the other "Sky" names anyways). Not disagreeing with the change to the disambig, just asking for clarification. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:50, 15 October 2009 (EDT) (coming back to claim my post)
: We don't generally try to cover all the various non-exact-same things a given character could be confused with at the top of every character article. That way leads down the path to madness. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:51, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

== Alt mode? ==

Anyone know what his alt-mode is? Heard someone mention it's WWII era? Would that make him only the second WWII vehicle behind G2 Ransack? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 14:58, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

GoBots

2009-10-08T12:35:57Z

76.28.72.27: /* Fiction */ minor link fix

{{disambig3|GoBots}}

:''GoBots are cyborgs from a realm outside the usual Transformers multiverse.''
[[Image:ShootingStarGoBotsAd.jpg|right|200px|thumb|This was printed in an issue of [[Shooting Star!|the Marvel ''Transformers'' comic]]. Proving the old adage that, if you can't '''beat''' 'em — subvert their publications to your own ends!]]

In a dimension beyond the records of even the [[TransTech|Transendent Technomorphs]] two factions of metalic beings, one friendly and one evil, fight an ancient war on a ravaged technological world. After untold years of battle that war has spilled over onto Earth, where the combatants alter their bodies to take on diguises of land and air vehicles and continue their conflict among us!

Yet these seemingly mechanical beings are not [[Autobots]] or [[Decepticons]]. They're not even robots, but cyborgs: Guardians and Renegades from the shattered planet Gobotron. They are the GoBots.

==Fiction==

For reasons yet unknown, one of the Transformers multiversal streams began to threaten the very existance of the GoBot's universe. With the devestation reaching a critical stage the normally antagonistic Guardians and Renegades combined forces with Earth to send a [[GoBots (G1)|team]] out into the multiverse to locate the cause of and, if possible, reverse the damage. Soon after a larger force of GoBots would follow.

{{stub}}
{{-}}

==Toyline==
[[Image:TonkaGoBotsLogo.jpg|left|100px|thumb|Note: not actually robots. Also, very occasionally [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Zod.html not actually vehicles].]]
The '''[[Tonka]]''' '''''GoBots''''' were the main competition for [[Hasbro]]'s ''Transformers'' in the 1980s. Notably, their launch actually preceded that of the ''Transformers'' own, although they ultimately proved not to have the same level of lasting popularity.

Premiering in 1984, Tonka's ''GoBots'' toys were mostly small, similar in size to ''Transformers''' [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]], although they were generally more complex than similarly-sized Transformers. After the line's initial success, a series of larger ''Super GoBots'' toys was also released, featuring both new characters and larger versions of some pre-existing toys. Tonka also released a number of supporting toys such as spaceships, bases, the monster "Zod", and later a set of combining "Power Suits" which ''GoBots'' figures could be placed into.

In 1991, [[Hasbro]] bought Tonka and its subsidiaries (including [[Kenner]]), and at that time acquired all of Tonka's intellectual property, including jurisdiction over GoBots-related names and trademarks. The rights relating to the toys that made up the GoBots line, however, are still owned by Bandai, who had merely licensed them to Tonka for ''GoBots''.

===Pre-GoBots===
''GoBots'' got its start as a Japanese toyline called ''Machine Robo'', which was created by [[Takara]]-competitor [[Bandai]]'s spinoff company '''Popy''', shortly before Popy was re-absorbed into Bandai proper. ''Machine Robo'' toys were initially marketed in the United States under the name ''Machine Men'' by Bandai themselves, but the line didn't see widespread success until Tonka adapted the toyline into ''GoBots'' and created a new animated series for the brand, as well as an array of supporting merchandise such as coloring books, stickers, and even an official GoBots magazine.

{{note|For Transformers fans, this situation is similar to how some [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1 Transformer]] molds were released by Takara in the [[Diakron]] toyline before their partnership with [[Hasbro]] began.}}

===International===
Besides distributing them in the United States as ''Machine Men'', Bandai also sold the ''Machine Robo'' toys in other non-Asian countries before their partnership with Tonka began. Bandai appeared to retain the international marketing rights to the series following the change to ''GoBots'', and so adapted their international toylines when the line was rebranded.

In [[Europe]], where the toyline began as ''Robo Machine'', the packaging changed over a period of time to reflect Tonka's developments, eventually touting itself as ''Challenge of the GoBots: a Robo Machine product''. In [[Australia]], however, the toyline began with the ''Machine Men'' title, which it evidently retained even after the rebranding in the United States.

===Cartoon===
The cartoon, called ''Challenge of the GoBots'', was produced in the United States by Hanna-Barbera. It aired in some markets outside the US (possibly just Australia) with the title ''Challenge of the Machine Men''.

The cartoon focused on the interstellar struggle between the friendly [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]] GoBots, led by [[Leader-1 (GoBots)|Leader-1]], and their enemies, the [[Renegade]] GoBots, commanded by [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]].

In addition to the leaders, the main GoBot cast included Turbo (a rough-and-tumble Guardian), [[Scooter (GoBots)|Scooter]] (a cowardly young Guardian), [[Crasher (G1)|Crasher]] (a cackling Renegade madwoman), and Cop-Tur (a dumb, thuggish Renegade). The series was rounded out with human allies and enemies, along with various GoBot guest stars and other aliens.

[[Image:SentinelCrasherBrain.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Crasher's organic brain, from the episode "Sentinel". You can tell she's a girl by the large nagging and shoe shopping regions.]]
Despite the tagline "Mighty Robots, Mighty Vehicles" the background material for the cartoon established (most notably in the episode ''Sentinel'' and the multi-part ''GoBotron Saga'') that the GoBots are not true robots, but rather alien ''cyborgs''. The GoBots began as a race of alien humans, who, after a great catastrophe, had to put their brains into "GoBot forms" to survive.

The GoBots appeared in one theatrically released film, ''Challenge Of The GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords'', where they met the Rock Lords, voiced by television and movie icons such as Margot Kidder, Roddy Mcdowell, and Telly Savalas. Rock Lords was a short-lived spinoff toy line Tonka was launching involving alien humanoids that transformed into different sorts of rocks. (Yes, rocks. No, they must not have seen ''[[wikipedia:It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown|It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown]]''.)

In [[France]], both the American ''GoBots'' cartoon and the Japanese ''Machine Robo: The Revenge of Chronos'' series were aired. The latter was renamed ''Revenge of the GoBots'' and was dubbed as a sequel to the American series. The show took place in the future, and the voice actors from the French dub of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' returned to voice their roles (or as many equivalents as were applicable) in ''Revenge of the GoBots''.

This makes France the only country to combine the American and Japanese GoBots shows into one story. We salute them.

==Trivia==
{{bigquote|This is a universe of nigh-infinite possibilities, so perhaps...|[[Unicron]] reflects on the possibility of GoBots in Transformers|[[The End|TF Armada #18]] (letters page)}}

*Though the Tonka toyline was idle for many years, following Hasbro's acquisition of Tonka, Kenner and the ''GoBots'' intellectual property, the GoBots universe has slowly but steadily bled into mainstream Transformers in a wide variety of ways.

*Hasbro first put the newly acquired trademark to use on the ''[[Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' Color-Changer figure [[Gobots (G2)|Gobots]] in 1993, then again (albeit in hyphenated form) on a ''Generation 2'' subline titled [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]] in 1995.

*The ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' [[Mini-Con]] [[Leader-1 (Armada)|Leader-1]], who was under the control of [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] and shares his name with the [[Leader-1 (GoBots)|leader of the heroic Guardian GoBots]].

*At one point, [[Unicron]]'s Mini-Con [[Dead End (Armada)|Dead End]] was going to be called "Gobotron", in reference to the home planet of the GoBots. The idea, however, was ultimately discarded.

*Unexpectedly, the first direct usage of the GoBots characters in Transformers came not from [[Hasbro]], but [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]. As part of their [[e-Hobby]] line of collector toys, six [[Redeco|redecoed]] [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]] were released as the "Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team [[GoBots (G1)|G1 GoBots]]". The included [[bio]] alludes to concepts and technology from Tonka ''GoBots'' fiction, with the toys themselves representing various GoBot characters. (The [[Gears (G1)|Gears]] redeco was even drawn on the bio card as a blatantly female mechanoid, the female GoBot [[Small Foot]].) However, the individual character names given in online solicitations were dropped just prior to release, which made their official status somewhat blurry.

*Several GoBots appear in the background in a number of [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] Transformers comics as visual jokes.

*In the third volume of [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers]], [[Cobra Commander]] refers to the Autobots as "glorified Go-Bots".

*[[BotCon 2007]] followed up on the earlier e-Hobby use of the GoBots and continued the story begun there, specifically naming the white [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Bumblebee]] [[redeco]] "[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bugbite]]", thus solidifying the connection that was always implied. ''That'' storyline was then followed up in the [[Transformers Collectors' Club]] online-exclusive text story "[[Withered Hope]]", which firmly cemented the G1 GoBots as their GoBot-universe counterparts and further elaborated upon the scenario presented in the [[Games of Deception|BotCon 2007 comic]].

*In [[IDW Publishing|IDW]]'s ''[[Megatron Origin]]'', [[Cy-Kill (G1)|Cy-Kill]] is Megatron's first opponent in the [[Forge]]. He gets a cover appearance and dialogue before being defeated and killed. Further, a robot that is clearly his fellow Renegade [[Crasher (G1)|Crasher]] is part of [[Clench (G2)|Clench]]'s inner circle/gladiatorial team, and later fights alongside Megatron.

*In IDW's ''Beast Wars: [[The Ascending issue 2|The Ascending]]'', the GoBot monster Pincher is shown as a murdered [[Angolmois]] junkie.

*In the [[Shattered Glass]] alternate universe, Renegade GoBot Fitor and Guardian GoBot Leader-1 (the latter in Cy-Kill's color scheme) are among the evil Autobot forces. What looks like Cy-Kill's claw is seen amongst the cheering throngs joining the evil Autobots too. Heroic Renegade [[Crasher (SG)|Crasher]] is described as [[Blurr (SG)|Blurr]]'s cousin in his (Blurr's) tech spec, and even appears (with earthquake-like powers) in "[[Dungeons & Dinobots]]".

*The [[Transformers (2007)|movie toyline]] Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] figure [[Fracture]] is a very clear [[homage]] to Crasher in appearance, powers, and personality profile. According to the [[Hasbro]]'s designer panel at [[BotCon 2008]], Fracture ''is'' Crasher. She would have even been named "Crasher," had it been available.

*In [[Transcendent: Part 5]], the two Axiom Nexus guards who die at Alpha Trion's hands are designed after Cy-Kill and Scooter.

==External links==

*[http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots coverage]
*[http://www.tfu.info/Gobots/index.htm TFU.info GoBots coverage]

[[Category:External properties]]
[[Category:Franchises]]

GoBots

2009-10-08T12:33:50Z

76.28.72.27: Casting this into more appropriate Wiki format

{{disambig3|GoBots}}

:''GoBots are cyborgs from a realm outside the usual Transformers multiverse.''
[[Image:ShootingStarGoBotsAd.jpg|right|200px|thumb|This was printed in an issue of [[Shooting Star!|the Marvel ''Transformers'' comic]]. Proving the old adage that, if you can't '''beat''' 'em — subvert their publications to your own ends!]]

In a dimension beyond the records of even the [[TransTech|Transendent Technomorphs]] two factions of metalic beings, one friendly and one evil, fight an ancient war on a ravaged technological world. After untold years of battle that war has spilled over onto Earth, where the combatants alter their bodies to take on diguises of land and air vehicles and continue their conflict among us!

Yet these seemingly mechanical beings are not [[Autobots]] or [[Decepticons]]. They're not even robots, but cyborgs: Guardians and Renegades from the shattered planet Gobotron. They are the GoBots.

==Fiction==

For reasons yet unknown, one of the Transformers multiversal streams began to threaten the very existance of the GoBot's universe. With the devestation reaching a critical stage the normally antagonistic Guardians and Renegades combined forces with Earth to send a (GoBots (G1)|team) out into the multiverse to locate the cause of and, if possible, reverse the damage. Soon after a larger force of GoBots would follow.

{{stub}}
{{-}}

==Toyline==
[[Image:TonkaGoBotsLogo.jpg|left|100px|thumb|Note: not actually robots. Also, very occasionally [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Zod.html not actually vehicles].]]
The '''[[Tonka]]''' '''''GoBots''''' were the main competition for [[Hasbro]]'s ''Transformers'' in the 1980s. Notably, their launch actually preceded that of the ''Transformers'' own, although they ultimately proved not to have the same level of lasting popularity.

Premiering in 1984, Tonka's ''GoBots'' toys were mostly small, similar in size to ''Transformers''' [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]], although they were generally more complex than similarly-sized Transformers. After the line's initial success, a series of larger ''Super GoBots'' toys was also released, featuring both new characters and larger versions of some pre-existing toys. Tonka also released a number of supporting toys such as spaceships, bases, the monster "Zod", and later a set of combining "Power Suits" which ''GoBots'' figures could be placed into.

In 1991, [[Hasbro]] bought Tonka and its subsidiaries (including [[Kenner]]), and at that time acquired all of Tonka's intellectual property, including jurisdiction over GoBots-related names and trademarks. The rights relating to the toys that made up the GoBots line, however, are still owned by Bandai, who had merely licensed them to Tonka for ''GoBots''.

===Pre-GoBots===
''GoBots'' got its start as a Japanese toyline called ''Machine Robo'', which was created by [[Takara]]-competitor [[Bandai]]'s spinoff company '''Popy''', shortly before Popy was re-absorbed into Bandai proper. ''Machine Robo'' toys were initially marketed in the United States under the name ''Machine Men'' by Bandai themselves, but the line didn't see widespread success until Tonka adapted the toyline into ''GoBots'' and created a new animated series for the brand, as well as an array of supporting merchandise such as coloring books, stickers, and even an official GoBots magazine.

{{note|For Transformers fans, this situation is similar to how some [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1 Transformer]] molds were released by Takara in the [[Diakron]] toyline before their partnership with [[Hasbro]] began.}}

===International===
Besides distributing them in the United States as ''Machine Men'', Bandai also sold the ''Machine Robo'' toys in other non-Asian countries before their partnership with Tonka began. Bandai appeared to retain the international marketing rights to the series following the change to ''GoBots'', and so adapted their international toylines when the line was rebranded.

In [[Europe]], where the toyline began as ''Robo Machine'', the packaging changed over a period of time to reflect Tonka's developments, eventually touting itself as ''Challenge of the GoBots: a Robo Machine product''. In [[Australia]], however, the toyline began with the ''Machine Men'' title, which it evidently retained even after the rebranding in the United States.

===Cartoon===
The cartoon, called ''Challenge of the GoBots'', was produced in the United States by Hanna-Barbera. It aired in some markets outside the US (possibly just Australia) with the title ''Challenge of the Machine Men''.

The cartoon focused on the interstellar struggle between the friendly [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]] GoBots, led by [[Leader-1 (GoBots)|Leader-1]], and their enemies, the [[Renegade]] GoBots, commanded by [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]].

In addition to the leaders, the main GoBot cast included Turbo (a rough-and-tumble Guardian), [[Scooter (GoBots)|Scooter]] (a cowardly young Guardian), [[Crasher (G1)|Crasher]] (a cackling Renegade madwoman), and Cop-Tur (a dumb, thuggish Renegade). The series was rounded out with human allies and enemies, along with various GoBot guest stars and other aliens.

[[Image:SentinelCrasherBrain.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Crasher's organic brain, from the episode "Sentinel". You can tell she's a girl by the large nagging and shoe shopping regions.]]
Despite the tagline "Mighty Robots, Mighty Vehicles" the background material for the cartoon established (most notably in the episode ''Sentinel'' and the multi-part ''GoBotron Saga'') that the GoBots are not true robots, but rather alien ''cyborgs''. The GoBots began as a race of alien humans, who, after a great catastrophe, had to put their brains into "GoBot forms" to survive.

The GoBots appeared in one theatrically released film, ''Challenge Of The GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords'', where they met the Rock Lords, voiced by television and movie icons such as Margot Kidder, Roddy Mcdowell, and Telly Savalas. Rock Lords was a short-lived spinoff toy line Tonka was launching involving alien humanoids that transformed into different sorts of rocks. (Yes, rocks. No, they must not have seen ''[[wikipedia:It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown|It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown]]''.)

In [[France]], both the American ''GoBots'' cartoon and the Japanese ''Machine Robo: The Revenge of Chronos'' series were aired. The latter was renamed ''Revenge of the GoBots'' and was dubbed as a sequel to the American series. The show took place in the future, and the voice actors from the French dub of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' returned to voice their roles (or as many equivalents as were applicable) in ''Revenge of the GoBots''.

This makes France the only country to combine the American and Japanese GoBots shows into one story. We salute them.

==Trivia==
{{bigquote|This is a universe of nigh-infinite possibilities, so perhaps...|[[Unicron]] reflects on the possibility of GoBots in Transformers|[[The End|TF Armada #18]] (letters page)}}

*Though the Tonka toyline was idle for many years, following Hasbro's acquisition of Tonka, Kenner and the ''GoBots'' intellectual property, the GoBots universe has slowly but steadily bled into mainstream Transformers in a wide variety of ways.

*Hasbro first put the newly acquired trademark to use on the ''[[Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' Color-Changer figure [[Gobots (G2)|Gobots]] in 1993, then again (albeit in hyphenated form) on a ''Generation 2'' subline titled [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]] in 1995.

*The ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' [[Mini-Con]] [[Leader-1 (Armada)|Leader-1]], who was under the control of [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] and shares his name with the [[Leader-1 (GoBots)|leader of the heroic Guardian GoBots]].

*At one point, [[Unicron]]'s Mini-Con [[Dead End (Armada)|Dead End]] was going to be called "Gobotron", in reference to the home planet of the GoBots. The idea, however, was ultimately discarded.

*Unexpectedly, the first direct usage of the GoBots characters in Transformers came not from [[Hasbro]], but [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]. As part of their [[e-Hobby]] line of collector toys, six [[Redeco|redecoed]] [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]] were released as the "Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team [[GoBots (G1)|G1 GoBots]]". The included [[bio]] alludes to concepts and technology from Tonka ''GoBots'' fiction, with the toys themselves representing various GoBot characters. (The [[Gears (G1)|Gears]] redeco was even drawn on the bio card as a blatantly female mechanoid, the female GoBot [[Small Foot]].) However, the individual character names given in online solicitations were dropped just prior to release, which made their official status somewhat blurry.

*Several GoBots appear in the background in a number of [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] Transformers comics as visual jokes.

*In the third volume of [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers]], [[Cobra Commander]] refers to the Autobots as "glorified Go-Bots".

*[[BotCon 2007]] followed up on the earlier e-Hobby use of the GoBots and continued the story begun there, specifically naming the white [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Bumblebee]] [[redeco]] "[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bugbite]]", thus solidifying the connection that was always implied. ''That'' storyline was then followed up in the [[Transformers Collectors' Club]] online-exclusive text story "[[Withered Hope]]", which firmly cemented the G1 GoBots as their GoBot-universe counterparts and further elaborated upon the scenario presented in the [[Games of Deception|BotCon 2007 comic]].

*In [[IDW Publishing|IDW]]'s ''[[Megatron Origin]]'', [[Cy-Kill (G1)|Cy-Kill]] is Megatron's first opponent in the [[Forge]]. He gets a cover appearance and dialogue before being defeated and killed. Further, a robot that is clearly his fellow Renegade [[Crasher (G1)|Crasher]] is part of [[Clench (G2)|Clench]]'s inner circle/gladiatorial team, and later fights alongside Megatron.

*In IDW's ''Beast Wars: [[The Ascending issue 2|The Ascending]]'', the GoBot monster Pincher is shown as a murdered [[Angolmois]] junkie.

*In the [[Shattered Glass]] alternate universe, Renegade GoBot Fitor and Guardian GoBot Leader-1 (the latter in Cy-Kill's color scheme) are among the evil Autobot forces. What looks like Cy-Kill's claw is seen amongst the cheering throngs joining the evil Autobots too. Heroic Renegade [[Crasher (SG)|Crasher]] is described as [[Blurr (SG)|Blurr]]'s cousin in his (Blurr's) tech spec, and even appears (with earthquake-like powers) in "[[Dungeons & Dinobots]]".

*The [[Transformers (2007)|movie toyline]] Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] figure [[Fracture]] is a very clear [[homage]] to Crasher in appearance, powers, and personality profile. According to the [[Hasbro]]'s designer panel at [[BotCon 2008]], Fracture ''is'' Crasher. She would have even been named "Crasher," had it been available.

*In [[Transcendent: Part 5]], the two Axiom Nexus guards who die at Alpha Trion's hands are designed after Cy-Kill and Scooter.

==External links==

*[http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots coverage]
*[http://www.tfu.info/Gobots/index.htm TFU.info GoBots coverage]

[[Category:External properties]]
[[Category:Franchises]]

G1 GoBots

2009-10-08T11:55:07Z

76.28.72.27: It's a start at getting this article into shape

{{disambig3|GoBots}}
{{move|Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team G1 Gobot}}

:''The G1 GoBots are a team of cyborgs travelling to the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:G1-GoBots-card.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Mighty robots! Might recolors!]]

From a [[GoBot (Tonka)|realm]] beyond the ken of even the [[TransTech|Transendent Technomorphs]] comes a team of cyborgs in diguise as mighty robots and mighty vehicles. Their home timeline disrupted and devastated by events in one of the Transformer's multiversal streams two factions of rival cybernetic beings, the Guardians and the Renegades, called a truce and together with the denizens of their Earth, tracked the devastation back to its source. Only able to send a small team at first, they hand picked a group composed of members from both factions, altered them to match the local life forms, and sent them through the multiverse, vanguard of a force to save their entire reality.

'''The Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team G1 GoBots''' are...

*[[Bad Boy]] - the cocky, sarcastic young thug
*[[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]] - brilliant, amoral scientist
*[[Path Finder]] - calm, ration female Guardian
*[[Road Ranger]]- friendly Guardian robot
*[[Small Foot]] - idealistic, naive young female Guardian
*[[Treds]] - friendly Gurdian disguised as evil Decepticon

==Fiction==
===''Timelines''===
[[Image:Witheredhopeinterrogated.jpg|left|300px|thumb|[[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTech]]s>[[Lowtech]]s>[[Tonka GoBots|GoBot]]s, apparently.]]
When a mysterious cataclysm began to systematically destroy their universe, the [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]] and [[Renegade]] GoBot factions set aside their differences and attempted to preserve their world. After years of research, the human [[Doctor B]] used his [[Dimensional Interfacer]] to trace the source of the destruction to a newly-created [[Classics (2006)|parallel universe]], which was "over-writing" and replacing theirs in the grand cosmic tapestry. A group of four Guardians and two Renegades had their bodies modified to match the specifications of these "[[Transformer|Transformers]]", with the intent that they be sent into this new universe in order to integrate themselves into its people, explore and discern a means of saving their own world. When they were dispatched across the dimensions by the Interfacer, rather than wind up in their intended target universe, they were inadvertantly caught in the wake of another [[Bee in the City|group of dimensional travelers]] and arrived on an entirely different Cybertron, in the city of [[Axiom Nexus]].

Dubbed "mechanoids of interest" due to their unconventional means of arrival, the six GoBots were subjected to lengthy interrogation, until it was eventually decided by the [[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTechs]] that ran Axiom Nexus that they would take no active hand in the saving of the GoBots' universe. Additionally, the GoBots were forbidden to leave Axiom Nexus, and were subjected to extensive processing before being sent out to live in the city. During this processing, however, Renegade Bug Bite stole away, using a portable [[Astro-Beam]] that he had brought with him to teleport into the city. Working quickly, Bug Bite murdered [[Comet|a Transformer]] and stole his money, which he used to purchase a body upgrade for himself from [[Swindle, Swindle & Swindle]], and then traded the Astro-Beam to [[Escargon]] for an off-world pass that would allow him to use one of the TransTech's dimensional gates, no questions asked. When the Astro-Beam's temporary effect wore off, he was returned to the processing centre and used the pass to travel to the group's original [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|destination universe]]. He began a plan of his own, arriving in the target universe fifteen years earlier than planned, hoping to avert the cataclysm before it began and hiding himself amongst the ranks of the Decepticons in order to work towards the destruction of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], having pinpointed him as the cosmic fulcrum on which the cataclysm hinged.

Searching for both the missing Bug Bite and some means out of Axiom Nexus, the other GoBots soon stumbled into the mess the Renegade had left behind and were accused of the theft of the passes by [[General Demolishor]] of the Military Police. Demolishor kidnapped Treds and took him to the lawless region known as the "[[Heap]]", where he intended to ransom him for the passes that he believed the other GoBots had. With no other options, the four remaining GoBots battled the general for their lives, and ultimately emerged victorious thank to the help of [[Crystal Widow]], and the legal wranglings of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Cheetor (TransTech)|Commander Cheetor]]. In order to both help the GoBots in their mission, and to save ''themselves'' any further trouble, Airazor and Cheetor gave the passes, Airazor had previously recovered, to the GoBots, allowing them to travel on to their intended universe.

The GoBots arrived in their target universe at their alloted time, not long after Bug Bite's fifteen-year-long scheme had resulted in Megatron [[Games of Deception|blowing his head off]]. The other GoBots materialized in front of his "corpse" shortly after [[Dreadwind (G1)|Dreadwind]] had dragged it to safety, at which point Bug Bite's headless body stood up and fished a new head for itself out of a spare parts bin. As Bug Bite explained to his shocked companions, he had survived simply by keeping his organic brain behind his windshield, instead of his head—and that they could soon expect other GoBots to be joining them... {{storylink|Withered Hope|Withered Hope}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
[[Image:G1 GoBots adv.jpg|right|250px|thumb|We have NAMES! Really!]]
*'''G1 GoBots''' (Multi-pack, 2004)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''84'''
:In 2004, [[Takara]] released an [[e-Hobby]] exclusive set of recolored Autobot [[Mini Vehicle|Mini-Vehicles]] renamed as [[Tonka GoBots|Tonka ''GoBots'']] characters. The intention was to have them ''be'' those characters infiltrating the Transformers universe. However, Takara got skittish when it was suggested that there was no telling how [[Bandai]] (the company responsible for the toys that Tonka adapted to create the GoBots back in the '80s) would react to the set, despite the minimal chance of provable copyright infringement.

:As such, although the set retained the name "G1 GoBots" and the references to various Tonka GoBot concepts were kept in the team Bio, the individual character names were dropped from the final packaging.

==Notes==
[[Image:Ehobbygobotscatalog.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Ferocious battle scene or family picnic? You make the call!]]
* The concept behind this set is more ingenious if you know a little about the events of the ''Challenge of the GoBots'' TV show. During the ''GoBotron Saga'' miniseries, it was revealed that the Renegades possess a machine that can reconfigure GoBots to blend in with robots from other worlds! It is possible that this very machine was used by the G1 GoBots Team to make them appear Cybertronian.

* The team Bio suggests that the GoBots passed some of their technology on to the Cybertronians. Among these is the technology behind the [[Spy Changers]], toys whose molds were originally marketed as the [[Generation 2]] [[Go-Bots (G2)|Go-Bots]].

[[Image:Miscolored minibots.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Now available in six fruity flavors!]]
* Treds, Bad Boy and Path Finder's colors are inspired by prototype versions of the [[Mini Vehicles]] seen in an early Takara catalog book. (See image at right.)

* The [[Ladybird Books|Ladybird]] book ''[[Autobots' Lightning Strike]]'' features miscolored versions of Huffer and Gears that somewhat resemble the colorations given to Road Ranger and Small Foot. Whether or not the GoBots' similarities are intentional or not is debatable.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/tree/browse_frm/thread/9cb39967ce36d104/0a35ae72f323c656?rnum=21&hl=en&q=%22G1+Gobots%22+group%3A*transformers*&_done=%2Fgroup%2Falt.toys.transformers%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F9cb39967ce36d104%2F32fd81d8838cc1ba%3Ftvc%3D1%26q%3D%22G1+Gobots%22+group%3A*transformers*%26hl%3Den%26#doc_c7c11b957a729450 Explanation of the individual name removal by Hirofumi Ichikawa]

[[Category:E-Hobby]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Subgroups]]

Talk:G1 GoBots

2009-10-08T02:37:06Z

76.28.72.27:

Anyone know what these characters ''would'' have been called? [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 15:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

==Additional Pic==
We were worried about outright swiping this from Nakas, IIRC.

[[Image:Minibot-japanese-cat.jpg|thumb]]

--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 12:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

{{-}}

==Old Stuff==
Is it just me or does it seem like the G1 gobots are responcible for the Maximal Upgrade?

"they have brought technologies such as their distinctive transporter devices and '''biomechanical engineering''' to this world, contributing to the birth of new generations of TFs like the Spychangers." [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 00:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That's conjecture. The biomech engineering thing comes from the Tonka GoBots' backstory, in which they are originally organic lifeforms who have moved to having robotic bodies. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the article be 'GoBots (G1)'? - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 04:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no indication anywhere of where the mentioned team bio can be read... --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

== Merger with Tonka? ==

Over on the [[GoBot (Tonka)]] talk page I've raised he possibility of renavating that article (it's a bit messy) and possibly mergeing this one with that. Anyone with any thoughts on the subject? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 21:08, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure, but I think these six GoBots are a team of some sort. If they are a team, they should have their own page. Where does "Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team" come from? Is that the official name of their team? Maybe the article should move there. I kind of agree that there could be more done to make the Tonka GoBots more in-universe. Maybe there should be a "Tonka" page with all of the real-world information and a "GoBot" page that is in-universe. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:20, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::The set's name is "G1 GoBots". The team's function is "Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:28, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::This page should not be merged as it is about a specific group and not Tonka GoBots in general. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:09, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Agreed. --unknown
:::::The toy set is "G1 Gobots," but that's NOT an "in fiction" name, is it? It certainly doesn't sound like one, where "Dimensional Exploration/Experimentation Team" sounds very much like an "in fiction" name for the group. Is it ever used as such anywhere (their aborted bio, club stuff)? Even if not, it's almost tempting to move this to the possible fiction-centric name over the toy group designation just cause it's so much more pleasing. At least for me, your millage may vary.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 22:37, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:G1 GoBots

2009-10-08T01:08:12Z

76.28.72.27: /* Merger with Tonka? */ new section

Talk:GoBots

2009-10-07T18:19:21Z

76.28.72.27:

Hoooooo doggies, does this need work. I'd argue with both the contention that the GB cartoon was "more kiddy", AND the contention that the toys were "simpler". If anything, Tonka GoBots put similar-sized Transformers to fucking SHAME in the transformation complexity department. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Too much non-TF information! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

----
X-Bob, learn to spell and write or don't edit at all. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the information in X-Bob's edit is more fiction-based than metafictional-based, which is largely what that section is about. It would probably belong on the G1 GoBots page, if anywhere. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see why so much of this article was removed. I think the sections that were here called Pre-GoBots, International, and Cartoon were all appropriate and belong in the article. The fiction ties between TF and GoBots are minimal, but from a real-world historical perspective, I think that the history and nature of the GoBots brand is quite relevant to Transformers history. TFU.info and M Sipher's TF variations list both have extensive GoBots coverage, and I don't recall anybody saying those were inappropriate for TF resources to include. I am not suggesting that turn this into a "Transformers and GoBots" wiki or anything. I just think that, well, the name "Machine Men" and the fact that GoBots had a cartoon series should really be in this article. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:Personally, I'm fine with this article being fairly extensive, so long as we don't start seeing lots of purely GoBots-related articles showing up on the rest of the Wiki. (No GoBots character lists, or episode pages for the GoBots cartoon, for example).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 21:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Depth... ==

I was just wondering would any more work be wanted on this thing? I'm tempted to add in a bit, but would probably let my Gobot love take over - for example, is the UK comic strip worth a mention? Or the Robo Machines European reissue line?

Also, should I add a fairly NPOV piece on the reasons why TF won in the end (i.e. much better marketing)?

Incidentally, it's nice to find there are quite a few TF fans who, like me, aren't either/or on the Gobot thing... "My transforming robot line is AWESOME, the others are all ghey" has always seemed a bit schoolyard to me :)

[[User:Cliffjumper|Cliffjumper]] 14:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:I for one would love to know more about the Go-Bot off-shoots. Especially since they're now effectively Transformers canon.--[[Special:Contributions/82.41.82.198|82.41.82.198]] 19:15, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

== Power Suits ==

Anyone else remember the Power Suits and the Power Suit carrier? Man, those were good times... --[[User:76.18.66.115|76.18.66.115]] 08:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

==Beast Machines==

Quick question, but does anybody recall which episode of Beast Machines had Nightscream effortlessly destroying a unit of tank drones and then referring to them as "Tonka toys" with contempt in his voice? I don't want to rewatch the series just to look for that reference. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
:Wait... Nightscream said something COOL? Emo BAT-BOY Nightscream? Damn Unicron Singularity...--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 01:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Cyborgs.... ==

This was actually posted over at Crasher's talk page but since it applies to all GoBot-related articles, I'm reposting it here. After someone contested the fact that GoBots were actually cyborgs and not robots, it got my curiosity going, so I brought this up to a friend of mine who's a bit of a GB aficionado. He put together a list of scenes and facts supporting the fact that GoBots are every bit as 100% robotic as Transformers are. Submitted for everyone:
:1. [http://www.tfu.info/issue03/Gobots/etpe1.jpg ZOD book, page 1]
::For an origin story, the lack of time reference is curious. Why would they call themselves GoBots before moving in that direction? Actually, accoring to [http://youtube.com/watch?v=p09Fk96DYgo The GoBotron Saga Part 3]. the original inhabitants of GoBotron were called GoBings.
:::Zeemon: "He turned out to be WHO?"
:::Leader1: "The Master Renegade, the leader of the ancient rebellion which DESTROYED the GoBings."
:2. [http://www.youtube.com/v/jBQNDTWVkeQ Last Engineer's story, ancient newscast]
::Last Engineer: "Because of the catastrophe, our race is nearing extinction. I am among the last and must do something."
::Scooter: "The Last Enigeer saved us by inventing the GoBot form."
:::I don't see anything that disproves non-cyborg alternatives.
:3. [http://www.youtube.com/v/fU2pmZwLHPE Last Engineer's story, upon revival]
::AJ Foster: "How, I mean, why are you part human, part...?"
::Last Engineer: "Part robot? Heh heh heh. Survival, my dear. As parts wore out, I replaced them."
:::OK, so the ''Last Engineer'' is a technically cyborg. This is world's different from ALL GoBots being cyborgs. It's implicit that the Last Engineer did this to himself over time, whereas the inhabitants of GoBotron had a much more immediate need.
:4. [http://www.youtube.com/v/fU2pmZwLHPE Leader1's disassembly]
::How ''does'' a human brain survive being diconnected from a cyborg body and being shot that close to the sun?
:::See also: Turbo's-brain-somehow-didn't-freeze-on-the-dark-side-of-the-moon.
:::See also: "Humans cannot live on a waterless planet, but we Renegades can!" from Wendy's "The Sea Vaporizer"
:5. [http://www.youtube.com/v/ctaJUMlbIko Clutch of Doom]
::Dr. Aureolis: "Heh heh heh. The Rhomatic Condensor doesn't work on GoBots. It's programmed for organic beings only."
:6. [http://www.youtube.com/v/ctaJUMlbIko Battle For GoBotron (pilot)]
::None of the GoBots are affected by the mind control signal that ensnares every human on Earth.
:7. [http://www.youtube.com/v/kf5YBtRD94Q Sentinel]
::Sentinel (referring to Crasher): "A vehicle that lacks an organic control mechanism."
::CyKill: "You see, we are pure machines, like yourself, machines that battle against organic life forms and their misguided GoBot allies."
:8. [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Regular/GobotsListing.html GoBots 1-72] [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/SuperGobots/SuperGobots.html All Super GoBots]
::Mighty Robots Mighty Vehicles, Friendly/Guardian ROBOT ?, Enemy/Renegade ROBOT ?
:9. [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Regular/CyKillMOSC2a.jpg Tonka's original backstory from GoBot 01]
::"GoBots come from a different time and age. They are mighty robots that change into mighty vehicles. Some are friendly while others are enemy."
:10. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines Nazca Lines, referenced in In Search of Ancient GoBonauts which is not online]
::The episode is about an ancient GoBot called the Evil One, who was banished from GoBotron for nearly destroying it with an anti-matter weapon called the Dark Heart during a power struggle that ensued after the Last Engineer and Master Renegade disappeared. The story goes that he crashed in Peru and the Nazca lines were a clue left behind. The article says they date to between 200 BC and 700 AD, placing the GoBotron catastrophe at least 1300 years in the past. If page 1 of the ZOD book is to believed, scientists of GoBotron have been studying Earth for at least 13 centuries...all the way back to the ''dark ages'' at best and before Jesus and maybe even Rome at worst? --[[User:Detour|Detour]]

:I'm guessing by the lack of contestation to this that I can just go ahead and remove all of these "cyborg" references? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:Frankly, looking at that list, what I see is this: they established an origin, both in other media and in the show, that had them as organic beings who later upgraded their bodies. That's... well, that's a ''FACT'', isn't it? They specifically ''laid out this origin''. When their origin is actually, directly ''addressed'', (retelling it, discussing it with the Rock Lords), this is how it is consistently portrayed. It's only when they're not directly talking about the origin, the writers mistakenly claimed they were wholly robotic. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::Bingo. I was going to say the same thing.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:::No, it looks like you're just picking and choosing only what appears to support your original opinion. Because here're some ''facts'' about Saga and Rocklords: Neither says "cyborg" or "brain," expressly relates to modern GoBots, or rules out alternatives like consciousness transfers (see also Star Trek TNG's "The Schizoid Man"). They're circumstantial evidence at best. The singular data point across the other 60 episodes that's even remotely obvious, you didn't even mention as a counterargument. Why, because it doesn't make sense from physiological standpoint or because it's just as likely a plot convenience devised by writers you've already dismissed as lazy or mistaken? I wonder how well a quote from Hanna Barbera's series bible might've fared against the esteemed interns at Golden Books.
:::The other issue here is that I proposed little more than changing "are" to "may be" because nobody acknowleged different conclusions or what iteration of Crasher they were talking about and was just brushed off.--[[User:68.82.87.66|68.82.87.66]] 00:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

After having finally gotten ahold of the episode 'Sentinel' I am struck by the great irony of this statement. The list above uses a quote from that episode to show that the Gobots are purely mechanical... when the climax of the episode reveals that statement to be a lie. All three Renegades are scanned in that episode and each is shown with an organic brain. I'm having "Lady in Purple" and "Nightbird was Sentient" flashbacks over here.--[[User:TrentTroop|Trent Troop]] 20:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

While I cannot rule out that I'm misremembering, wasn't there a Challenge of the GoBots episode that explicitly stated (and if I remember correctly showed via a cutaway) that the ''current'' GoBots had organic brains? It was one of the things that stuck out for me, but I haven't really been interested or researched much on GoBots since I was a kid.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

:''For an origin story, the lack of time reference is curious. Why would they call themselves GoBots before moving in that direction? Actually, accoring to [http://youtube.com/watch?v=p09Fk96DYgo The GoBotron Saga Part 3]. the original inhabitants of GoBotron were called GoBings.''

What does a time reference have to do with anything? It seems like a random complaint to discredit the minicomic - we have no idea what the life-cycle of the organics of Gobotron was.

Now, it's clearly possible that the continuity of the cartoon and the minicomic don't line up (that happened often enough in Transformers), but the minicomic states that the GoBots were cybernetic beings in at least one continuity, so there's no arguing ''that'' point. Whether the cartoon strictly adhered to this or not is another matter. (I also think the original inhabitants of Gobotron were called Gobanes and not Gobings, but that may be an accent issue.)

:''Last Engineer: "Because of the catastrophe, our race is nearing extinction. I am among the last and must do something."''
:''Scooter: "The Last Enigeer saved us by inventing the GoBot form."''
::''I don't see anything that disproves non-cyborg alternatives.''

I... have no idea what this means? That particular combination of lines suggests to '''me''' that The Last Engineer saved the remaining Gobanes/Gobings by inventing the GoBot form and then doing ''something'' to make the Gobanes into the GoBots, whether through cybernetic conversion or mind-transfer or something. As the cyborg idea existed concurrently in the fiction of the time, it seems more logical to go with that pre-existing option, especially in light of some of the Last Engineer's comments.

:''Last Engineer: "Part robot? Heh heh heh. Survival, my dear. As parts wore out, I replaced them."''
::''OK, so the ''Last Engineer'' is a technically cyborg. This is world's different from ALL GoBots being cyborgs. It's implicit that the Last Engineer did this to himself over time, whereas the inhabitants of GoBotron had a much more immediate need.''

Yes, but the needs of The Last Engineer do not necessarily equal the needs of the Gobanes themselves. The Last Engineer did not adopt a GoBot form, so replaced his parts over time, is how I took it... and add to this the fact that the Last Engineer said that he was "more human than GoBot" in Quest For New Earth, heavily implying that the final result of his own cyberneticization would be a GoBot body.

(Technically a cyborg? He's missing both arms, a leg, and at least a quarter of his head.)

I've read on the [http://counter-x.net/gobots/reviews/super1/zeemon.html Counter-X GoBot site] that Zeemon was evidently the first to receive his GoBot form from the Last Engineer. Now, this does not happen in any of the episodes I have watched, but there ARE a good 15-16 that are not online in any form, so I can't discount that the fact was revealed in one of those. If the Last Engineer developed the GoBot form, and said he was more human than GoBot while being an obvious cyborg, well... no, it's not out-and-out stated, but it's not that big of a leap, either.

::''How ''does'' a human brain survive being diconnected from a cyborg body and being shot that close to the sun?''
::''See also: Turbo's-brain-somehow-didn't-freeze-on-the-dark-side-of-the-moon.''

While valid points on one level, I assume "the same reason acid rain hurt the Autobots but not Chip Chase".

It would take a while to address these other points, but on the whole I see them as intentionally skewering the facts towards your position. It's clear that the marketing failed to properly convey the cyborg idea, but I don't see what other conclusion can be easily drawn from the existing facts, especially in light of the minicomic and the Last Engineer's background.

Whatever the intention of the original series was, granted, what will probably be more relevant to GoBots-within-Transformers will be the direction ''Withered Hope'' takes... on the other hand, if ending the arguement is as simple as changing "are" to "may be", I wouldn't have a problem with that. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 06:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

==Blaster==
Are we sure that's Blaster next to Prime-being-rebuilt? Was he indicated by the artist, or did he look totally different in the cartoon? Because it doesn't match [http://www.tfu.info/Gobots/Guardians/BlasterYellow/blaster.htm his toy.] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
:Do you have a scan of the panel? I can ID it with a scan, possibly. And it's Don art, so it'll most likely look like the toy more than the animation model. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Sgprimerebuilt.jpg|right]]
::Yeah, neither of those guys look like Blaster, or like any Gobots I'd know... The guy on the right's chest looks like Firebot's...
:::I'm just going to shake my fist at y'all until the Diamond edition comes out.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Canon ==

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Major Renevations Needed ==

This article seems unecessarily messy. Its current organization and content is a relic of a time before the GoBots were brought as firmly into TF continuity (Botcon Bugbite, and especially Withered Hope) as they are today. I really think this article and the [[GoBots (G1)]] articles should be merged, and a true fiction section should be added here to at least cover the GoBots adentures that have been within G1 continuity. That would help edit down the too long messy "influences" list as well. Thoughts? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 14:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:GoBots

2009-10-07T18:18:20Z

76.28.72.27: /* Major Renevations Needed */ new section

Hoooooo doggies, does this need work. I'd argue with both the contention that the GB cartoon was "more kiddy", AND the contention that the toys were "simpler". If anything, Tonka GoBots put similar-sized Transformers to fucking SHAME in the transformation complexity department. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Too much non-TF information! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

----
X-Bob, learn to spell and write or don't edit at all. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the information in X-Bob's edit is more fiction-based than metafictional-based, which is largely what that section is about. It would probably belong on the G1 GoBots page, if anywhere. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see why so much of this article was removed. I think the sections that were here called Pre-GoBots, International, and Cartoon were all appropriate and belong in the article. The fiction ties between TF and GoBots are minimal, but from a real-world historical perspective, I think that the history and nature of the GoBots brand is quite relevant to Transformers history. TFU.info and M Sipher's TF variations list both have extensive GoBots coverage, and I don't recall anybody saying those were inappropriate for TF resources to include. I am not suggesting that turn this into a "Transformers and GoBots" wiki or anything. I just think that, well, the name "Machine Men" and the fact that GoBots had a cartoon series should really be in this article. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:Personally, I'm fine with this article being fairly extensive, so long as we don't start seeing lots of purely GoBots-related articles showing up on the rest of the Wiki. (No GoBots character lists, or episode pages for the GoBots cartoon, for example).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 21:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

== Depth... ==

I was just wondering would any more work be wanted on this thing? I'm tempted to add in a bit, but would probably let my Gobot love take over - for example, is the UK comic strip worth a mention? Or the Robo Machines European reissue line?

Also, should I add a fairly NPOV piece on the reasons why TF won in the end (i.e. much better marketing)?

Incidentally, it's nice to find there are quite a few TF fans who, like me, aren't either/or on the Gobot thing... "My transforming robot line is AWESOME, the others are all ghey" has always seemed a bit schoolyard to me :)

[[User:Cliffjumper|Cliffjumper]] 14:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:I for one would love to know more about the Go-Bot off-shoots. Especially since they're now effectively Transformers canon.--[[Special:Contributions/82.41.82.198|82.41.82.198]] 19:15, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

== Power Suits ==

Anyone else remember the Power Suits and the Power Suit carrier? Man, those were good times... --[[User:76.18.66.115|76.18.66.115]] 08:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

==Beast Machines==

Quick question, but does anybody recall which episode of Beast Machines had Nightscream effortlessly destroying a unit of tank drones and then referring to them as "Tonka toys" with contempt in his voice? I don't want to rewatch the series just to look for that reference. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
:Wait... Nightscream said something COOL? Emo BAT-BOY Nightscream? Damn Unicron Singularity...--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 01:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Cyborgs.... ==

This was actually posted over at Crasher's talk page but since it applies to all GoBot-related articles, I'm reposting it here. After someone contested the fact that GoBots were actually cyborgs and not robots, it got my curiosity going, so I brought this up to a friend of mine who's a bit of a GB aficionado. He put together a list of scenes and facts supporting the fact that GoBots are every bit as 100% robotic as Transformers are. Submitted for everyone:
:1. [http://www.tfu.info/issue03/Gobots/etpe1.jpg ZOD book, page 1]
::For an origin story, the lack of time reference is curious. Why would they call themselves GoBots before moving in that direction? Actually, accoring to [http://youtube.com/watch?v=p09Fk96DYgo The GoBotron Saga Part 3]. the original inhabitants of GoBotron were called GoBings.
:::Zeemon: "He turned out to be WHO?"
:::Leader1: "The Master Renegade, the leader of the ancient rebellion which DESTROYED the GoBings."
:2. [http://www.youtube.com/v/jBQNDTWVkeQ Last Engineer's story, ancient newscast]
::Last Engineer: "Because of the catastrophe, our race is nearing extinction. I am among the last and must do something."
::Scooter: "The Last Enigeer saved us by inventing the GoBot form."
:::I don't see anything that disproves non-cyborg alternatives.
:3. [http://www.youtube.com/v/fU2pmZwLHPE Last Engineer's story, upon revival]
::AJ Foster: "How, I mean, why are you part human, part...?"
::Last Engineer: "Part robot? Heh heh heh. Survival, my dear. As parts wore out, I replaced them."
:::OK, so the ''Last Engineer'' is a technically cyborg. This is world's different from ALL GoBots being cyborgs. It's implicit that the Last Engineer did this to himself over time, whereas the inhabitants of GoBotron had a much more immediate need.
:4. [http://www.youtube.com/v/fU2pmZwLHPE Leader1's disassembly]
::How ''does'' a human brain survive being diconnected from a cyborg body and being shot that close to the sun?
:::See also: Turbo's-brain-somehow-didn't-freeze-on-the-dark-side-of-the-moon.
:::See also: "Humans cannot live on a waterless planet, but we Renegades can!" from Wendy's "The Sea Vaporizer"
:5. [http://www.youtube.com/v/ctaJUMlbIko Clutch of Doom]
::Dr. Aureolis: "Heh heh heh. The Rhomatic Condensor doesn't work on GoBots. It's programmed for organic beings only."
:6. [http://www.youtube.com/v/ctaJUMlbIko Battle For GoBotron (pilot)]
::None of the GoBots are affected by the mind control signal that ensnares every human on Earth.
:7. [http://www.youtube.com/v/kf5YBtRD94Q Sentinel]
::Sentinel (referring to Crasher): "A vehicle that lacks an organic control mechanism."
::CyKill: "You see, we are pure machines, like yourself, machines that battle against organic life forms and their misguided GoBot allies."
:8. [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Regular/GobotsListing.html GoBots 1-72] [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/SuperGobots/SuperGobots.html All Super GoBots]
::Mighty Robots Mighty Vehicles, Friendly/Guardian ROBOT ?, Enemy/Renegade ROBOT ?
:9. [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Regular/CyKillMOSC2a.jpg Tonka's original backstory from GoBot 01]
::"GoBots come from a different time and age. They are mighty robots that change into mighty vehicles. Some are friendly while others are enemy."
:10. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_Lines Nazca Lines, referenced in In Search of Ancient GoBonauts which is not online]
::The episode is about an ancient GoBot called the Evil One, who was banished from GoBotron for nearly destroying it with an anti-matter weapon called the Dark Heart during a power struggle that ensued after the Last Engineer and Master Renegade disappeared. The story goes that he crashed in Peru and the Nazca lines were a clue left behind. The article says they date to between 200 BC and 700 AD, placing the GoBotron catastrophe at least 1300 years in the past. If page 1 of the ZOD book is to believed, scientists of GoBotron have been studying Earth for at least 13 centuries...all the way back to the ''dark ages'' at best and before Jesus and maybe even Rome at worst? --[[User:Detour|Detour]]

:I'm guessing by the lack of contestation to this that I can just go ahead and remove all of these "cyborg" references? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:Frankly, looking at that list, what I see is this: they established an origin, both in other media and in the show, that had them as organic beings who later upgraded their bodies. That's... well, that's a ''FACT'', isn't it? They specifically ''laid out this origin''. When their origin is actually, directly ''addressed'', (retelling it, discussing it with the Rock Lords), this is how it is consistently portrayed. It's only when they're not directly talking about the origin, the writers mistakenly claimed they were wholly robotic. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
::Bingo. I was going to say the same thing.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

:::No, it looks like you're just picking and choosing only what appears to support your original opinion. Because here're some ''facts'' about Saga and Rocklords: Neither says "cyborg" or "brain," expressly relates to modern GoBots, or rules out alternatives like consciousness transfers (see also Star Trek TNG's "The Schizoid Man"). They're circumstantial evidence at best. The singular data point across the other 60 episodes that's even remotely obvious, you didn't even mention as a counterargument. Why, because it doesn't make sense from physiological standpoint or because it's just as likely a plot convenience devised by writers you've already dismissed as lazy or mistaken? I wonder how well a quote from Hanna Barbera's series bible might've fared against the esteemed interns at Golden Books.
:::The other issue here is that I proposed little more than changing "are" to "may be" because nobody acknowleged different conclusions or what iteration of Crasher they were talking about and was just brushed off.--[[User:68.82.87.66|68.82.87.66]] 00:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

After having finally gotten ahold of the episode 'Sentinel' I am struck by the great irony of this statement. The list above uses a quote from that episode to show that the Gobots are purely mechanical... when the climax of the episode reveals that statement to be a lie. All three Renegades are scanned in that episode and each is shown with an organic brain. I'm having "Lady in Purple" and "Nightbird was Sentient" flashbacks over here.--[[User:TrentTroop|Trent Troop]] 20:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

While I cannot rule out that I'm misremembering, wasn't there a Challenge of the GoBots episode that explicitly stated (and if I remember correctly showed via a cutaway) that the ''current'' GoBots had organic brains? It was one of the things that stuck out for me, but I haven't really been interested or researched much on GoBots since I was a kid.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

:''For an origin story, the lack of time reference is curious. Why would they call themselves GoBots before moving in that direction? Actually, accoring to [http://youtube.com/watch?v=p09Fk96DYgo The GoBotron Saga Part 3]. the original inhabitants of GoBotron were called GoBings.''

What does a time reference have to do with anything? It seems like a random complaint to discredit the minicomic - we have no idea what the life-cycle of the organics of Gobotron was.

Now, it's clearly possible that the continuity of the cartoon and the minicomic don't line up (that happened often enough in Transformers), but the minicomic states that the GoBots were cybernetic beings in at least one continuity, so there's no arguing ''that'' point. Whether the cartoon strictly adhered to this or not is another matter. (I also think the original inhabitants of Gobotron were called Gobanes and not Gobings, but that may be an accent issue.)

:''Last Engineer: "Because of the catastrophe, our race is nearing extinction. I am among the last and must do something."''
:''Scooter: "The Last Enigeer saved us by inventing the GoBot form."''
::''I don't see anything that disproves non-cyborg alternatives.''

I... have no idea what this means? That particular combination of lines suggests to '''me''' that The Last Engineer saved the remaining Gobanes/Gobings by inventing the GoBot form and then doing ''something'' to make the Gobanes into the GoBots, whether through cybernetic conversion or mind-transfer or something. As the cyborg idea existed concurrently in the fiction of the time, it seems more logical to go with that pre-existing option, especially in light of some of the Last Engineer's comments.

:''Last Engineer: "Part robot? Heh heh heh. Survival, my dear. As parts wore out, I replaced them."''
::''OK, so the ''Last Engineer'' is a technically cyborg. This is world's different from ALL GoBots being cyborgs. It's implicit that the Last Engineer did this to himself over time, whereas the inhabitants of GoBotron had a much more immediate need.''

Yes, but the needs of The Last Engineer do not necessarily equal the needs of the Gobanes themselves. The Last Engineer did not adopt a GoBot form, so replaced his parts over time, is how I took it... and add to this the fact that the Last Engineer said that he was "more human than GoBot" in Quest For New Earth, heavily implying that the final result of his own cyberneticization would be a GoBot body.

(Technically a cyborg? He's missing both arms, a leg, and at least a quarter of his head.)

I've read on the [http://counter-x.net/gobots/reviews/super1/zeemon.html Counter-X GoBot site] that Zeemon was evidently the first to receive his GoBot form from the Last Engineer. Now, this does not happen in any of the episodes I have watched, but there ARE a good 15-16 that are not online in any form, so I can't discount that the fact was revealed in one of those. If the Last Engineer developed the GoBot form, and said he was more human than GoBot while being an obvious cyborg, well... no, it's not out-and-out stated, but it's not that big of a leap, either.

::''How ''does'' a human brain survive being diconnected from a cyborg body and being shot that close to the sun?''
::''See also: Turbo's-brain-somehow-didn't-freeze-on-the-dark-side-of-the-moon.''

While valid points on one level, I assume "the same reason acid rain hurt the Autobots but not Chip Chase".

It would take a while to address these other points, but on the whole I see them as intentionally skewering the facts towards your position. It's clear that the marketing failed to properly convey the cyborg idea, but I don't see what other conclusion can be easily drawn from the existing facts, especially in light of the minicomic and the Last Engineer's background.

Whatever the intention of the original series was, granted, what will probably be more relevant to GoBots-within-Transformers will be the direction ''Withered Hope'' takes... on the other hand, if ending the arguement is as simple as changing "are" to "may be", I wouldn't have a problem with that. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 06:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

==Blaster==
Are we sure that's Blaster next to Prime-being-rebuilt? Was he indicated by the artist, or did he look totally different in the cartoon? Because it doesn't match [http://www.tfu.info/Gobots/Guardians/BlasterYellow/blaster.htm his toy.] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
:Do you have a scan of the panel? I can ID it with a scan, possibly. And it's Don art, so it'll most likely look like the toy more than the animation model. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Sgprimerebuilt.jpg|right]]
::Yeah, neither of those guys look like Blaster, or like any Gobots I'd know... The guy on the right's chest looks like Firebot's...
:::I'm just going to shake my fist at y'all until the Diamond edition comes out.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Canon ==

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Major Renevations Needed ==

This article seems unecessarily messy. Its current organization and content is a relic of a time before the GoBots were brought as firmly into TF continuity (Botcon Bugbite, and especially Withered Hope) as they are today. I really think this article and the [[G1 Gobots]] articles should be merged, and a true fiction section should be added here to at least cover the GoBots adentures that have been within G1 continuity. That would help edit down the too long messy "influences" list as well. Thoughts? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 14:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Liege Maximo

2009-10-06T19:58:26Z

76.28.72.27: /* Notes */

{{factions|cybEmpireG2}}
:''Liege Maximo is a [[Transformer|Cybertronian]] from the [[Generation 2]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] continuity family.''

[[Image:Liegemaximo.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Here I go again on my throne.]]
Evil is infinite, a natural counterforce to good in the universe that cannot be truly defeated. So when the first [[Prime (disambiguation)|Prime]] was created, so was, necessarily, the ultimate evil. Having no known name, he is known only by his rank. He is the '''Liege Maximo''', and from him [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and the Decepticons were descended.

The Liege Maximo's throne sits at the [[Hub]], a network of planetoids that exists in the outer fringes of known space.

==Fiction==
===''Generation 2'' Marvel Comics===
With the [[Liege Centuro]] [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] destroyed, Jhiaxus's fleet wiped out by [[Swarm|The Swarm]], and the [[Autobot|Autobots]] and Decepticons united in peace under one banner, [[Rook (G2)|Rook]] reported to the Liege Maximo on the day's devastating events. The Liege Maximo, an ancient and monumental titan, accepted the destruction of Jhiaxus' forces as merely a minor disruption. Sneering at the Transformers' alliance as a fragile thing, the Liege Maximo promised a day of reckoning. {{storylink|A Rage in Heaven!|A Rage in Heaven!}}

===''Reaching the Omega Point''===
The [[Covenant]] witnessed a vision of the ancient past, in which the Liege Maximo tore the [[Matrix of Leadership]] from the defeated [[Primon]]. When and why this happened remain unanswered questions.{{fact|Storylink Needed}}

===''TransTech''===
A scandal involving the (a?) Liege Maximo rocked the Cybertronian government in the distant past.{{fact|Storylink Needed}}

==Notes==
* Although the Generation 2 comic was cancelled before the true nature of the Liege Maximo could be revealed, [[Simon Furman]] was ultimately able to see his ideas for the character through to conclusion in the unofficial novella, "[[Alignment]]". Although "Alignment" was produced without permission of [[Hasbro]] and is thus considered non-[[canon]], it explains that the Liege Maximo was one of the [[13 original Transformers]] created by [[Primus]], who, unlike his fellows, had chosen not to [[Reproduction|subdivide]] repeatedly, doing so only selectively, creating a small taint in the Transformer race which spread through subsequent generations, ultimately flowering with the rise of the Decepticons. Because of this sparse sub-division, the Liege Maximo's connection to the divine origins of the Transformer race was comparatively undiluted, and he sought to embrace it. To this end, he instructed Jhiaxus and the [[Cybertronian Empire]] to subject various planets to [[eco-structuring]], which were steadily woven together to form the Hub, a massive resonating structure that would allow him to ascend to the realm of the gods. Two Transformer groups, one led by Grimlock and one by Ultra Magnus and Megatron, disrupted this process by forcing the Liege to leave his corporeal body, then destroying both it and his portal. Left with nowhere to go, the Liege Maximo's essence dissipated, and he was destroyed.

*[[Simon Furman]] cryptically hinted in [http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/script-wrap-15/#comments comments on his blog] that the Liege Maximo may make a return in 2008 in IDW's comics. It didn't happen.

*Liege Maximo's name was frequently misspelled as "Leige Maximo" in the Generation 2 comics. Sometimes, both versions were even used on the same page, and once, even in the same sentence.

*Several references to a "Liege Maximo incident" are dropped in the profiles for various ''TransTech'' characters in the Fan Club magazines. Not many details are given, but it's easy to consider this Liege Maximo is the same as the individual detailed above due to the [[Transcendent Technomorph]]s' constant contact with other dimensions. (If one accepts his intended origin from Alignment it would pretty much have to be the same individual, since as one of the 13 he would be a [[multiversal singularity]].)

[[Category:Comic-only characters]]
[[Category:Decepticon leaders]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]

Swindle (Armada)

2009-10-06T17:18:01Z

76.28.72.27: Relative from trading card

{{factions|minicon|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Swindle}}
{{picsneeded}}

:''Swindle is a [[Mini-Con]] from the [[Armada (franchise)|Armada]] portion of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Swindle-AR-model.gif|right|250px|thumb|Even the Mini-Cons have abandoned me.]]
'''Swindle''' is a sneak who is mainly concerned for himself. He's a smooth-talker with a gift of gab and bluff who can wheedle people into seeing his way... at least, long enough to get what he wants. He actually gets along very well with his [[Decepticon]] "partner" [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]], but how much of that is a ploy to catch the Decepticon unawares has yet to be seen. Swindle lacks the strength of character to be a good guy, but suffers too many pangs of conscience to be a bad guy, try as he might. Swindle is also the cousin of [[Zapmaster]], whatever that actually means.

:''Japanese name'': '''Grid'''
:''Polish name'': '''Kanciarz'''

==Fiction==
===Armada cartoon continuity===
Swindle was discovered in a forest, and subsequently claimed by Starscream as his Mini-Con partner. Starscream used Swindle's power to prove the strength of his [[Powerlinx]]-activated [[Null-ray|Null Laser Cannons]]. {{storylink|Jungle|Jungle}}

Swindle would continue to serve as Starscream's partner, and apparently developed loyalty to him, but it is unknown if this was genuine or a result of the Mini-Con [[servility program]]. Swindle went with Starscream when he temporarily joined the Autobots {{storylink|Regeneration|Regeneration}} (and when he subsequently left them) {{storylink|Crack|Crack}}, and would later use his inherent Mini-Con powers to upgrade both himself and Starscream after the latter had been severely damaged by [[Nemesis Prime (Armada)|Nemesis Prime]]. {{storylink|Puppet|Puppet}}

Their partnership ended in tragedy on Cybertron. In his final stand, Starscream Powerlinked with Swindle and shot a futile blast at [[Unicron]]. Just before being torn apart by Unicron's energy bolts, Starscream broke the link with Swindle, sending him to safety. Swindle lamented his partner's death, while [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] assured him that Starscream's long battle was finally over. {{storylink|Cramp|Cramp}}

It is unknown what became of Swindle after this.

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
====''Armada''====
Swindle was a resident of [[Mini-Con Village C52]]. He was part of the mass effort erecting an [[Energon (fuel)|Energon]] Dome to protect their village before the Decepticons attacked. When Cyclonus burrowed under their defenses and brought down the dome, Swindle was captured and sent to a Decepticon Chop-shop for mecha-sectioning and re-wiring.

It was Swindle's bad luck the next day when Starscream chose ''him'' for the attack on Cyber City. While the Mini-Cons left at the base staged a mass breakout, Swindle was left with the Decepticons for a million long, long years...

After the Mini-Con reactivation signal brought the Decepticons to Earth, Swindle pretended to have escaped from Starscream in order to gain the trust of humans [[Carlos Lopez|Carlos]] and [[Rad White|Rad]]. They promised to bring him to the Autobots for protection, and successfully evaded a Decepticon attack, but Swindle betrayed them to the Decepticons. Megatron intended to merge humans with Cybertronian technology and create a power source, much as he had the Mini-Cons. Rad was outraged, they had ''escaped'', but after a million years of slavery, Swindle believed his freedom was the Decepticons' to give. When Megatron subsequently refused to free him as promised, Swindle liberated a group of captured Autobots who drove the Decepticons off. Swindle briefly believed he had won the freedom he had tried to buy, but Starscream activated a retrieval device, yanking him back into custody.

Swindle was among the Mini-Cons summoned to the Moon by [[Dualor]]. When the Fortress was destroyed he returned to Earth in an escape pod and was subsequently recaptured by Megatron, who had the foresight to implant tracking tags in his Mini-Cons.

Swindle was allowed to rejoin his fellow Mini-Cons for the joint battle against Unicron. He took part in the ceremony at the [[Loop]] which badly damaged the Chaos Bringer.

====''Energon''====
Ten years later, Starscream appeared without Swindle. Swindle's fate remains unknown. {{storylink|This Evil Reborn}}

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Armada===
[[Image:Arm-toy Swindle.jpg|right|300px|thumb|]]
*'''Starscream with Swindle''' (Max-Con, 2002)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''MD-02'''

: Swindle was available only with the larger Decepticon [[Starscream (Armada)#Toys|Starscream]], transforming into an Indy-style race car. He is designed to fit between Starscream's Null Laser Cannons, and can also be clipped on the underside of Starscream's jet-mode cockpit, deployed by pressing down on Starscream's canopy. The [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] version has merely the tiniest of tone changes to its color.

: This mold was [[redeco]]ed to become [[Zapmaster]], and is the basis for the mold used by [[Mirage (Armada)|Mirage]] and [[Top Gear]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2002/Mini-Con/Swindle/swindle.htm More information on Swindle at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Zapmaster}}
[[Image:Armada-toy_Zapmaster.JPG|right|thumb|250px]]
*'''Starscream Super Mode with Spark Grid''' (Max-Con, 2003)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MD-09'''

: In Japan, the toy known in the [[Hasbro]] line as [[Thundercracker (Armada)|Thundercracker]] was instead a "powered-up" version of Starscream, and the Mini-Con followed suit. In this "Spark" version, Swindle is almost completely identical to Zapmaster, save some incredibly minor plastic hue difference.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Mini-Con/Zapmaster/zapmaster.htm More information on Spark Grid (actually Zapmaster) at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BTR}}
*'''Starscream with Swindle''' (Built to Rule, 2003)

: For the Hasbro ''[[Built to Rule]]'' building block system, Starscream came with a small, building-block-based version of Swindle. This version can be rebuilt from robot mode into something kind of vaguely resembling a race car. Sort of.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Mini-Con/BTRSwindle/swindle.htm More information on ''Built to Rule'' Swindle at TFU.info]''

===Merchandise===
[[Image:Swindle-MSCF.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Micro-Mini-Con]]
*'''Starscream''' (MSCF, 2003)

: In Japan, a tiny PVC micro-figurine of Swindle based on his animation model was released with the [[Super Collection Figure|Mega Super Collection Figure]] version of ''Armada'' Starscream.

: Like the other Mini-Con PVC micro-figurines in the series, the soft-plastic pegs that keep his arms in place were painted over, and as such are susceptible to snapping off if you try to move the arms, his only points of articulation. Extra-special caution should be taken with these parts.

[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Built to Rule]]
[[Category:Mini-Cons]]

Zapmaster (Armada)

2009-10-06T17:16:14Z

76.28.72.27:

{{factions|minicon|decepticon}}
:''Zapmaster is a [[Mini-Con]] from the [[Armada (franchise)|Armada]] portion of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] [[continuity family]].''
{{mainpic|29 April 2007}}
'''Zapmaster''' will attack just about anything head-on, no matter how big and overpowering it may be. "Fear" doesn't ever seem to register in his brain. He lived in the [[Wastelands]] of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] for who-knows-how-long, which turned him into the vicious little bugger he is today. Zapmaster is the cousin of [[Swindle (Armada)|Swindle]], whatever that actually means.

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Armada===
[[Image:Armada-toy_Zapmaster.JPG|right|thumb|250px]]
*'''Thundercracker with Zapmaster''' (Max-Con, 2003)

: A [[redeco]] of ''Armada'' [[Swindle (Armada)|Swindle]] mold, Zapmaster transforms into an F-1 race car. He is designed to fit between Thundercracker's flip-out missile launchers, and can also be clipped on the underside of Thundercracker's jet-mode cockpit, deployed by pressing down on the canopy.

: This mold is similar to, but not the same as, the mold used to make ''Armada'' [[Mirage (Armada)|Mirage]] and [[Top Gear]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Mini-Con/Zapmaster/zapmaster.htm More information on Zapmaster at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
*'''Thundercracker with Zapmaster''' (Built To Rule, 2003)

: For the Hasbro ''[[Built to Rule]]'' building block system, Zapmaster was a simple [[redeco]] of the small, building-block-based version of Swindle. This toy can be rebuilt from robot mode into something kind of vaguely resembling a race car. Sort of.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Mini-Con/BTRZapmaster/zapmaster.htm More information on ''Built to Rule'' Zapmaster at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
===Energon===
*'''Prowl with Longarm & Starscream with Zapmaster''' (Multi-pack, 2004)

: Zapmaster got redecoed again, as sort of a reverse-Swindle, as part of the Sam's Club [[exclusive]] ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' multi-pack. This time he was partnered with [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]], who also came with [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] and his "reassigned" Mini-Con partner [[Longarm (Armada)|Longarm]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Mini-Con/Zapmaster/zapmaster.htm More information on Sam's Club exclusive Zapmaster at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
==Trivia==
* In Japan, the ''Armada'' Thundercracker/Zapmaster set was actually used (with ever-so-slight plastic tweaks) as the powered-up versions of [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] and Swindle rather than new characters.

[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Energon characters]]
[[Category:Mini-Cons]]
[[Category:Sam's Club exclusives]]

Bludgeon (G1)

2009-10-01T13:43:00Z

76.28.72.27: /* Notes */ Relevant bit from Ultimate guide

{{factions|decepticon|decepticong2|unicron}}
{{disambig3|Bludgeon}}
{{featured}}
:''Bludgeon is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:BludgeonUK1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|This is pretty much the most metal cover in TF history.]]
'''Bludgeon''' is a ferocious warrior, skilled in the ancient Cybertronian martial art of [[Metallikato]]. He and his blade can cut through the battlefield as if everyone else is operating at a minimal speed setting. Bludgeon's feats in battle seem nearly supernatural, which is probably the effect he's going for, if he doesn't believe his own hype. Utterly vicious and aloof, Bludgeon is also highly religious, adhering to an arcane code of honor. Though his beliefs fuel his single-minded bloodthirstiness with dogmatic precision, they also cause him to be rather superstitious.

Bludgeon's confidence, skill, and grand words have often catapulted him to the upper ranks of the Decepticons. Who wouldn't fall in line behind him? He's charismatic! The [[Mayhem Attack Squad]] is his usual host of cronies, but he's also been known to fill in as [[Decepticon leader]] if a power vacuum presents itself.

Bludgeon is (obviously) a [[Pretender]] who has adopted a shell which takes the appearance of a skeletal samurai. His signature weapon is an energo-sword, though he also carries a shield and an electric cannon. In accordance with his martial arts motif, generators in his shell's legs can create disorienting clouds of smoke, and he can generate electric fireballs from the torso of either his body or his shell. It is unknown whether Bludgeon is any less agile or capable in his blocky robot mode, but it wouldn't be surprising.

{{bigquote|Prattling fool! Your warrior heart is tainted by an idiot's tongue! Perhaps I shall remove '''both''' for you!|Bludgeon takes on [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]]|"[[Primal Scream (issue)|Primal Scream]]"}}

:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Gourdin''' ("Club", as in the beat-you-up-with kind)
:''Italian name:'' '''Teskior'''

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Generation 1====
{{noteukonly}}
[[Image:Bludgeonasavageplace.jpg|left|250px|thumb|The shoulder is a well-known Transformer instant-death spot.]]
''When Decepticons [[Catilla]] and [[Carnivac (G1)|Carnivac]] defected to the [[Autobot|Autobots]], a new Mayhem Attack Squad was formed which included Bludgeon, his Pretender cohorts Stranglehold and Octopunch, [[Needlenose]], [[Spinister (G1)|Spinister]], and [[Snarler]]. After a mission simulation of [[Slaughter City]], their prey was authorized -- they would hunt down and kill Catilla, Carnivac, and their new [[Wrecker|Wreckers]] friends. {{storylink|The Hunting Party}} They found Carnivac outside Dallas, Texas, and Bludgeon, promising him a warrior's death, led the charge. {{storylink|Way of the Warrior}} However, Carnivac escaped Bludgeon and the other Mayhems, {{storylink|Survival Run}} but tracked him down to [[Los Gravos]], [[Mexico]]. Bludgeon fought Carnivac, and [[Spinister (G1)|Spinister]] was about to deal the killing blow, when Catilla rescued him. However, Bludgeon threw his sword into Catilla, killing Carnivac's savior. As the rest of the Autobots arrived, Bludgeon ordered a withdrawal. Carnivac swore that Bludgeon and the other Mayhems would pay. {{storylink|A Savage Place!}} ''

[[Image:Bludgeonstrangleholdoctopunchmodelsheet.jpg|right|200px|thumb|The colorist made me look hunchbacked.]]
He later took on the leadership of [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]]'s new [[Mayhem Attack Squad]], sent to slay the newly-resurrected [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]], [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]], and [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]. Alongside the [[Rescue Patrol]], the [[Classic Pretender|Classic Pretenders]] were due to be teleported to [[Earth]], an operation Bludgeon attempted to interrupt by shoving his blade through the transportation machine. Instead, he and the Mayhems were transported with the Autobots to the center of Cybertron. {{storylink|Yesterday's Heroes!}} Here, the Mayhems were foiled, although they inadvertently awakened the slumbering [[Primus]] in the process. Ultimately, the transportation was completed, and they were sent to Earth along with the Autobots, {{storylink|Primal Scream (issue)|Primal Scream}} where they told [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] of Unicron's coming and joined his Decepticons on Earth. When [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] surrendered his Autobots to Scorponok in order to facilitate an alliance against Unicron, Bludgeon helped the other Decepticons imprison the surrendered Autobots. {{storylink|Surrender!}}

Bludgeon was seen fighting on Scorponok's side during the subsequent Decepticon Civil War {{storylink|...All This and Civil War 2}} and was transported with all of them to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] by [[Primus]]. Primus (speaking through the body of [[Emirate Xaaron]] told them of the history between himself and Unicron, while Bludgeon cleaned his sword. He was there also to quell the sudden [[Unicron cultist]] uprising, remarking that to a master of [[Metallikato]], their moves were like slow motion. {{storylink|The Void! (US)|The Void!}} When Unicron himself arrived, though, the superstitious Bludgeon ran like hell. {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}} Thankfully, Optimus Prime's sacrifice saved them all, and Bludgeon was there standing over Prime's body with a few others as he died. The Autobot/Decepticon alliance that emerged was shaky and the Decepticons leaderless, so Bludgeon and [[Krok (G1)|Krok]] discussed a plan of their own. {{storylink|Still Life!}}

[[Image:Bludgeonlastautobot.jpg|left|250px|thumb|It's a good thing the Battlechargers were dead then, or Bludgeon's shell would've been totally ganked.]]
Tensions came to a head when [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] discovered that Cybertron was tearing itself apart in the aftermath of the Transformers' victory against Unicron. While Bludgeon openly kept the peace (like keeping [[Fangry]] in line at meetings), he and Krok began to worry that some of the Decepticons were in ''favour'' of peaceful alliance and plotted to break it up. New Autobot leader [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] almost gave them an opening by beating the tar out of Fangry, until [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] stopped the fight; Bludgeon quickly exploited the situation anyway, demanding the full details of the Autobots' plans.

Now knowing they intended to start anew on another planet and live in peace, he sabotaged the Autobot ships and assumed command of the Decepticons. He gave the troops a rousing speech, condemning the Autobot plan as weak and advocating a return to conquest as was the Decepticon way. Having risen from the ranks to light their darkest hour, he was cheered on by the Decepticons. {{storylink|Exodus!}}

[[Image:Bludgeon-youlie1.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Look at him go. What a skeleton!]]
With his Decepticons eager for conquest, Bludgeon randomly selected the planet of [[Klo]] as their first target. {{storylink|A Savage Circle}} The peaceful inhabitants of Klo were easily (and violently) subdued, and Bludgeon thought this planet did not meet the challenges befitting their warrior race. In turn, Krok pleased him with news that their ships were bugged and that they should be expecting the Autobots to be arriving soon. {{storylink|The Last Autobot?}}

Indeed, when the Autobots arrived, Bludgeon's Decepticons were ready for them, luring them into an ambush—only five Autobots escaped their purge, and Bludgeon sent a small hunting party after them. Ultimate victory was snatched from Bludgeon only by divine intervention. The [[Last Autobot]] arrived with a resurrected Optimus Prime and the [[Neo-Knights]]. Bludgeon rejected this development on religious grounds; the Last Autobot, according to his beliefs, was the Ultimate Warrior, who was bent on conquest. He ordered his troops to attack the "unbelievers". Ultimately, the Decepticons were defeated. The Last Autobot was able to revive the fallen Autobots at will, and Bludgeon was forced to admit defeat and withdraw. As he and the Decepticons retreated, he promised a "solitary exile" to the Autobots—while saying something else to his subordinates. {{storylink|End of the Road! (US)|End of the Road!}}
{{-}}

=====Marvel UK future timelines=====
[[Image:Aspects of evil bludgeon.jpg|left|75px|thumb|GIVE ME YOUR THROAT.]]
''In an alternate 1990, [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] was captured by the Decepticons and freed by an agent placed within the Decepticons. [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] accused Bludgeon of being the culprit, and Bludgeon demanded the chance to prove himself through trial by combat. He was released and chased by [[Octopunch]], [[Stranglehold]] and [[Warmonger]]. Bludgeon easily dispatched the former two but was caught from behind by Warmonger, who couldn't bring himself to kill in cold blood. Realizing who the infiltrator was, Megatron destroyed Warmonger, then reflected that it would have simply been easier to kill all four of them. {{storylink|Aspects of Evil!}}''

{{note|The above story is the earliest known account from the Marvel UK alternate "Movie" timeline. The split between the main comic and the future stories almost certainly took place in 1989, either due to the Time Wars, the events of [[Primal Scream (issue)|Primal Scream]] where Primus alerted Unicron to his location 15 years early, or both.}}
{{-}}

=====Earthforce=====
{{earthforcefiction}}
[[Image:UKBludgeonEarthForce.jpg|right|180px|thumb|There wolf!]]
''Following Catilla's death, the Mayhems set up a base on a deserted island, where Needlenose decided to test their response time in an emergency. Enraged, Bludgeon threatened to tear him apart, but was stopped by Snarler. As Needlenose returned to his quarters, he was ambushed by Carnivac, who had snuck in during the chaos caused by his "drill". His calls for help were ignored by Snarler and Bludgeon. {{storylink|Cry Wolf!}} Carnivac decided to pick off Bludgeon next, finding him meditating. Bludgeon sensed him coming and took him on, and the other Mayhems responded to the commotion. Bludgeon wanted to finish this traitor with his blade as well, but Spinister decided to end it summarily by slagging Carnivac with his blaster instead. {{storylink|Wolf in the Fold!}} Angry at losing his kill, Bludgeon was pleased to find [[Earthforce]] attacking them, in an attempt to rescue Carnivac. He and his fellow Pretenders were defeated, outnumbered by the Autobots. But before they could be executed, a shell-less Carnivac appeared and told the Autobots to spare them, denying them a warrior's death. {{storylink|Where Wolf?}}''

''Captives of Earthforce, Bludgeon and his Pretender partners were held in a cell together. To get free, Bludgeon arranged a most subtle escape attempt with his cell mates. At first, they all remained completely silent for an extended period of time, partly to unnerve their guard, [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]], but also to give Bludgeon time to make mental contact with his katana, locked away in the property vault. Once he found the weapon and began summoning it back to him through the hallways, Bludgeon signaled Stranglehold to begin pounding frantically on the floor. This sudden activity spooked Inferno into opening the cell door to pacify the prisoner, only to wind up with a floating sword in his backside. The Pretenders then simply walked out over his leaking body. {{storylink|Shut Up!}}''

''Afterwards, Bludgeon and the others hooked up with Megatron and Shockwave, the deposed leaders of the Decepticons, and took on a bounty to assassinate their betrayers, Starscream and Soundwave. {{storylink|External Forces!}} The assassins outnumbered their prey, but they hadn't counted on the Autobots intervening on Starscream's behalf. It seemed the Dinobot [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]] was dying, and could only be saved by a systems boost from a compatible Transformer, namely Starscream. [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] and [[Sludge (G1)|Sludge]] joined the fight on Starscream's side, and the Mayhems were defeated. {{storylink|The Lesser Evil}}''

=====''Another Time and Place''=====
[[Image:BludgeonStrangleholdOctopunch-AnotherTimeAndPlace.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Bludgeon: All skeleton, no spine.]]
After the defeat on Klo, Bludgeon decided the Decepticons needed some "old blood" back in charge. He traveled to Earth and retrieved the deactivated body of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] from the wreckage of the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]]. Then, he seized upon an opportunity to follow Grimlock and the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] to [[Hydrus Four]], the source of the miraculous energy known as [[Nucleon]] which had supercharged the Dinobot commander. Slipping ahead of the Dinobots as they made their way to the medical facility, Bludgeon and his Decepticons set up a [[Holocaust Trigger]] to trap the Dinobots, disabling them without firing a shot. Unfortunately for Bludgeon, he ignored [[Fangry]]'s cries of "Let's just kill them already!" and gave in to his inner Bond villain, keeping Grimlock and the Dinobots alive long enough for them to witness the triumphant resurrection of Megatron. That didn't mean, however, that he kept his fellow Decepticons from aggressively torturing their fallen captives.

In a matter of hours, a full scale Autobot strike force had tracked the Dinobots down to Hydrus Four and assaulted Bludgeon's position. Fearing his rag-tag team of Decepticons wouldn't be enough, Bludgeon accelerated Megatron's revival, sending the half-mad, half-living monstrosity at Optimus Prime. He had no time to gloat, though -- the heavily-injured Dinobot known as [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] had dragged himself to the control module for one of the medical machines in the area, setting its spidery arms to work on Bludgeon, disassembling him in seconds down to his core components.

Bludgeon didn't even have time to scream. {{storylink|Another Time and Place}}
{{-}}

====''Generation 2''====
{{note| The ''Generation 2'' stories take place after the end of the original Marvel Comic, but in a [[splinter timeline]] that does not include the events of ''Another Time and Place''.}}
[[Image:Bludgeontalesofearth.jpg|200px|thumb|G2, home of New Extreme Weapons.]]
By "solitary exile", what Bludgeon had actually meant was "build a slag-off big planet-like spacecraft called the [[Warworld]] and attack vessels for their cargo across the galaxy". {{storylink|Primal Fear!}} He also battled Optimus Prime and the Autobots over a store of ancient alien weapons, but an alien entity drove him off. {{storylink|Ghosts}} After that, he went back to stealing resources—and finished the construction of a new generation of Decepticon warriors, who just needed the Matrix to come back to life. That meant luring Prime away from the [[Cybertronian (faction)|Cybertronian Empire]] and to him... {{storylink|Primal Fear!}}

[[Image:Bludgeon-PowerAndTheGlory.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Also, so very much less.]]

To lure Prime out, Bludgeon launched a full-scale attack on Earth and did succeed in drawing Optimus Prime to Earth's defense, but not before Bludgeon was confronted by the newly-rebuilt [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], who wanted command of the Decepticons for himself once more. {{storylink|Devices and Desires! (Marvel)|Devices and Desires!}} Bludgeon destroyed Megatron's gun with one swipe of his blade, but neglected to realize how enhanced the new Megatron was -- the former Decepticon leader ripped Bludgeon's Pretender skull off with one hand. Undaunted, Bludgeon proclaimed himself an agent of chaos and transformed into his little-used tank mode to confront Megatron on his own terms. He briefly drove back Megatron, but ultimately the Decepticons' founder proved to be too much for their current leader, and his new railgun destroyed Bludgeon utterly. {{storylink|The Power and the Glory}}

The victorious Decepticon leader subsequently displayed Bludgeon's severed head in the Warworld, though he did muse that he might have spared Bludgeon's life if he'd known how much the guy had achieved and envisioned with limited time and resources. {{storylink|The Gathering Darkness}} Later on, the Decepticons would try not to say the word "bludgeon", as in "to hit things", around Megatron just in case it annoyed him. {{storylink|New Dawn}}
{{-}}

====''Generation 2'' (Fleetway)====
[[Image:Bludgeon-WarWithoutEndUK.jpg|thumb|150px|thumb|[[Robin Smith]], copying a [[character model]] pose??? [[Ravage (G1)|Never!]]]]
Intending to draw out Autobots to Earth and steal the Matrix to bring a new generation of Decepticons to life, Bludgeon attacked Earth in force—specifically [[London]]. Unfortunately for him, the Autobots were already there, and attacked just as his troops were low on fuel. Bludgeon fought Optimus in direct combat and lost. {{storylink|Generation 2 (Fleetway comic)|Generation 2 (Fleetway comic)}}

He sneaked away to try the exact same tactic again—and learned if at first you don't succeed, Try #2 will get you killed by Megatron. {{storylink|The Power and the Glory}}
{{-}}

====''Classics''====
{{note| The ''Classics'' stories take place after the end of the original Marvel Comic, but in a [[splinter timeline]] that does not include the events of the Marvel UK-exclusive stories or Generation 2.}}
[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] was reluctant to prolong the war by following Bludgeon and his followers across the galaxy, but [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] was more than happy to. Grimlock, [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], and a crew of others searched and fought Bludgeon's Decepticons in the fringes of known space, but to no known resolution. At some point the mysterious Decepticon, [[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]], joined Bludgeon's Decepticons, and Bludgeon put him in charge of his own subgroup. {{storylink|Games of Deception}}

===Dreamwave ''Generation One'' comics continuity===
[[Image:WarWithin_Escalation_Bludgeons_vision.jpg|thumb|left|250px|EPIC FORESHADOWING.]]

During the so-called "[[War Within: The Dark Ages|Dark Ages]]" of the Autobot-Decepticon conflict, Bludgeon, alongside [[Bugly]] and [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]], formed the [[Chaos Trinity]], a group that sought to harness the dark forces of the universe and use them to their advantage. During one of their ceremonies in the Orbital Torus State of [[Kalis]], they were interrupted by the mysterious being known as [[The Fallen]], who applauded their amateur theatrics while mocking the lack substance behind their words. He offered them [[Furmanism|power beyond measure]] in exchange for their servitude, an proposal that Bludgeon at first boldly refused, then agreed to once The Fallen changed the term for which they would be referred to. The Fallen tasked his new "disciples" with capturing a number of Transformers in order to perform a bizarre ceremony called The [[Unbinding]] in [[Well of All Sparks|Cybertron's core]]. {{storylink|Fragmentation}} Soon, Bludgeon began to chafe at being ordered around without any tangible reward, so The Fallen gave him a glimpse of the dark power, ensuring the Decepticon's loyalty. While the [[Wrecker]]s and [[Ultracon]]s busied themselves with their civil war, unaware of the events unfolding, Bludgeon formulated a strategy to capture two of their targets: the Trinity would would exploit [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s twisted sense of justice and have him deliver himself and [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] into their trap. {{storylink|Escalation (Dreamwave)|Escalation}}

[[Image:WarWithin_Confrontation_BludgeonBlades.jpg|thumb|250px|And you call yourself 'Blades'? You don't even have a blade!]]

When Jetfire met with [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] in the [[Neutral Territories]] to discuss their suspicions about an outside force influencing the current conflict, the Trinity sprung their trap, attacking the Decepticon Commander. Bludgeon declared that once he would have never dared face Shockwave in battle, but he had been given new insights into the [[Dark Science]] and his ability to see the bigger picture, the latter no longer stood a chance. Once Shockwave was taken care of, the Trinity captured Jetfire, but noticed that Grimlock hadn't taken the bait of Jetfire's supposed treachery. As they prepared to leave, Grimlock jumped them, forcing The Fallen to step in. {{storylink|Revelation (The Dark Ages)|Revelation}} With two of the targets secured, The Fallen ordered the Trinity to capture [[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]], leader of the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]], while he would take care of the fourth target personally. In the ruins of [[Iacon]], while the Protectobots were discussing their problems with maintaining their control while combined as [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]], Bludgeon and the Trinity attacked, taking down the other Protectobots and capturing Hot Spot. {{storylink|Confrontation (issue)|Confrontation}}

While The Fallen used the four prisoners to unlock the [[Seal of Primus]], Bludgeon and the others were forced to defend the access shaft to the underground chamber against the Decepticons. Though Bludgeon stood resolute, ordering his comrades to fight on, with the faith that they would be rewarded for their loyal service, his resolve soon crumbled when the Autobots and the [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] joined forces with Shockwave and eliminated Bugly and Mindwipe. Bludgeon escaped underground to seek his master, only to be gunned down by a teleporting [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]]. {{storylink|Conflagration}}
{{-}}

===Dreamwave ''Armada'' comics===
[[Image:DWDropshot sliced.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Silent but deadly.]]
A version of Bludgeon from an unspecified alternate reality was part of [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]'s unit of Heralds, along with [[Dirge (G1)| Dirge]], [[Thunderwing (G1)| Thunderwing]] and [[Scourge (G1)| Scourge]], sent to prepare Cybertron for the coming of [[Unicron]]. He was stationed as guard of the Decepticon base when [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire's]] unit arrived. While he put up a formidable assault (as [[Dropshot (Armada)|Dropshot]] could attest), the Autobots eventually realized the secret to his technique and forced him to retreat, leaving behind his Pretender shell. {{storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 3 of 4}} He returned when Jetfire attempted to use the space-bridge portal, but like the rest of the Heralds was shortly blown up. {{storylink|Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4}}
{{-}}

===''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''===
[[Image:Bludgeon Robot GIJoe.jpg|140px|thumb|Bludgeon always secretly dreamed of being a [[Visionaries|Visionary]].]]
Eons ago, when Optimus Prime was given the [[Matrix of Leadership]], Bludgeon attempted to kill him, but failed.

Along with the [[Pretender Monster|Pretender Monsters]], Bludgeon traveled to Earth, seeking to be present at the planet's destruction by Unicron. The group was shot down by the [[China|Chinese]] Air Force, however, and damaged in the process. An alliance with the underground kingdom of [[Cobra-La]] provided them with life-sustaining [[Pretender]] shells in exchange for protecting the kingdom. He was responsible for the death of [[Atomic Man]] in 1978, when the [[Adventure Team (G.I. Joe)|Adventure Team]] came snooping too close to Cobra-La's hidden lair in the caves beneath [[Tibet]].

Decades later, Bludgeon engaged Optimus Prime in battle as the Autobot attempted to infiltrate Cobra-La's caves. After being burned by Bludgeon, Optimus ripped the chest off of Bludgeon's Pretender shell. In his anger, Bludgeon lost his edge and fell off a cliff. Although Optimus had caught him, Bludgeon chose to fall, standing by his philosophy of "merciless death and destruction." {{storylink|Black Horizon, Part 2 of 2}}
{{-}}

===IDW comics continuity===
{{ongoing}}

[[Image:SpotlightSoundwave_Bludgeon_defeatsLaserbeakRavage.jpg|thumb|left|300px|"Fool! A master of Metallikato knows when you try to sneak up behind him!"]]

Bludgeon was the leader of a team of Decepticons (including [[Iguanus (G1)|Iguanus]], [[Finback]], [[Skullgrin]], and [[Bomb-Burst]]) who were assigned by Megatron to look into what [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]'s various projects when he disappeared. Megatron also sent [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] to spy on them. During this time, Bludgeon discovered Shockwave's work on [[Regenesis]]. Eventually, however, they discovered the remains of [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]], the Decepticon scientist who became the cause of the Cybertronian cataclysm. Bludgeon came to believe that Thunderwing was an avatar of the apocalypse, and became bent on restoring the wasted Cybertron to its former glory by resurrecting him. He and his team of Decepticons believed that in reawakening Thunderwing and turning him loose, the mass sacrifice of worlds would allow the rebirth of Cybertron. They also delved into the outlawed [[Pretender|polydermal grafting]] experiments pioneered by Thunderwing, in an attempt to create super-shells of their own.

In 1984 they went to [[Earth]] to extract a load of [[Ultra-Energon]], establishing a base within Mt. St. Helens. Soundwave naturally followed them. He eventually came to them asking for a cut of their profits, believing that they meant to sell the energon, but when he realized that they meant to resurrect Thunderwing he tried to stop them. They used one of Shockwave's devices to lock him in his alt-mode, then caused a volcanic eruption and returned to Cybertron via an [[orbital jump|orbital bounce]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Soundwave}}

[[Image:IDWBludgeonShell.jpg|200px|thumb|oshit.]]
Twenty-three years later, [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and the [[Technobot (G1)|Technobots]], detecting the Ultra-Energon from orbit, went to investigate, and were taken by the cult, planning to use them as raw materials for their shells. Bludgeon wanted Jetfire to witness Thunderwing's awakening, to make him see that Thunderwing had been right to experiment, but Jetfire eventually annoyed him too much. Connecting his mind to an [[Axis-Cradle]] that controlled Thunderwing's blank neuroscape, Bludgeon sent Thunderwing to destroy [[Nebulos]], then engaged the auto-drive to inspect his own shell's progress. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2}} When Optimus Prime and the Wreckers attacked Bludgeon's base on Cybertron by surprise, Iguanus escaped to the bio-graft chamber to find Bludgeon—only to find the cult leader having donned full polydermal armor. However, in Bludgeon's rush, the shell was not mentally aligned, causing a psychic backlash that took down the Decepticon before the Wreckers even found him. It is unclear whether Bludgeon's mind survived, but if it did, it is apparently trapped in torment. Prime felt that he got off lightly for having unleashed Thunderwing. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 3}}

[[Image:SpotlightSideswipe Bludgeon attacks.jpg|left|thumb|150px|[[E. J. Su]] draws Bludgeon, and makes everyone happy in the pants.]]
After the defeat of Thunderwing, Bludgeon was transferred to [[Garrus-9]], where [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] stored his extracted [[spark]] in the Rig. {{storylink|Spotlight: Arcee}}

However, during [[Nova Prime|Nemesis Prime]]'s attempt to bring forth the [[Expansion]], Bludgeon (his shell at least) was reactivated inside his cell by [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] to stop Jetfire from attempting to take control of Thunderwing. {{storylink|Spotlight: Doubledealer}}

The remote-controlled Bludgeon sliced its way into Jetfire's lab and Jhiaxus planned to have it kill the Autobot. However, multiple fronts of Autobot resistance at each [[Nega-Core]] kept Jhiaxus from focusing his full attention on controlling Bludgeon, and he was forced to abandon his effort to kill Jetfire. [[Cloudraker (G1)|Cloudraker]] and [[Fastlane]] arrived and quickly disarmed the now-inert Bludgeon, and Jetfire borrowed the Pretender's sword to go aid Optimus Prime in his fight against Nemesis Prime. Bludgeon's body was presumably returned to confinement afterwards. {{storylink|Spotlight: Sideswipe}}

{{spoiler|All Hail Megatron issue 15|10/16/2009}}

[[Image:AHM_bludgeoniseeevill.jpg|300px|thumb|Another inconsistency [[Nick Roche]] has to fix.]]
Some time later, Bludgeon had apparently been liberated by his fellow Decepticons and fully rehabilitated. Again in possession of his full faculties (such as they were), he was in command of a Decepticon warship crewed by the [[Pretender Monster|Monstructor Six]]. Still displaying cultish fanaticism and a cruel streak a mile wide, he urged his crew onward in pursuit of the maverick Autobot [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]. Downing the Autobot's shuttlecraft, Bludgeon had his ship land and crew disembark to sacrifice Hot Rod for the greater purpose of restoring Cybertron. With the untimely arrival of the crew of the battleship ''[[Trion]]'', Bludgeon ordered his acolytes to form Monstructor and crush the Autobots. However, his forces were put to rout by a precise shot from [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]'s sniper rifle, which hit the vulnerable connecting joint of the large combiner. Realizing what he was up against, Bludgeon sounded the retreat. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 15|Lost and Found}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
[[Image:G1Bludgeon toy.jpg|right|301px|thumb|I see dead people... and I'm the one that made them dead.]]
*'''Bludgeon''' (Pretender, 1989)
:*''Accessories'': Pretender shell, large "Laser Rifle" gun, tank turret/shield, small "Electric Cannon", helmet

:Bludgeon's inner robot transforms into a green and lilac tank of undetermined origin. Oddly, compared to most ''Transformers'' tanks, he has no wheels inside the static tank tracks for any sort of rolling movement; however, as the treads are arranged in two pairs, he is also one of the very few tank Transformers whose treads do not split apart during transformation. Transformation to robot mode is very similar to many tank-vehicle Micromaster figures, except one must remove the rotating turret piece to do so, with the removable main gun as his weapon, mounted in a hole in his wrist (rather than his hand).

:Bludgeon's Pretender shell, continuing the Decepticon trend of monstrous or war-like shells, is an orange and maroon humanoid samurai with a human skull for a head. Removing the helmet reveals great attention to detail to the skull, with cranium fusion seams and well-defined teeth, among other sculpting. The shell is armed with a white rifle and the inner robot's tank turret mounted on his arm as a sort of shield.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1989/Decepticon/Bludgeon/bludgeon.htm More info on Bludgeon at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Notes==
* Like Stranglehold and Octopunch, Bludgeon's [[character model]] portrays him with a specialized melee weapon. Bludgeon is consistently drawn with the character model's sword, which has become a trademark, despite his toy lacking one. The character model also seems to include a scabbard for the sword, though that is not included nearly as often. Why all three of these characters are given weapons that don't exist is unknown.
:* The only time we see his character model is when it's copied faithfully by [[José Delbo]] in "[[Yesterday's Heroes!]]". (However, [[Robin Smith]] takes another crack at it in [[Fleetway]]'s ''[[Generation 2 (Fleetway comic)|Generation 2]]'' series, but a tiny few liberties were taken, style-wise.)
* The sword in his character model has unique detailing at the base of the front of the blade. In Delbo's rendition, it looks kind of like a dong. Elsewhere, not so much. Thankfully.
* Bludgeon's outer shell is a "Warrior-Grade Pretender Shell" equipped with an ambient stealth field.<ref>[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]], by [[Simon Furman]]</ref>
* Bludgeon came close to having a new toy on two separate occasions. The first was a planned 6" Titaniums toy, supposedly based on his War Within design <ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/titanium-13/cancelled-titanium-bludgeon-revealed-in-tfw2005-toy-database-164105/ Cancelled Titanium Bludgeon Revealed in TFW2005 Toy Database]</ref>, while the second was drawn up for the [[Universe (2008 franchise)|''Universe'']] line, but put on hold because of the large number of tank and tank-like vehicles released recently. <ref>[[Bill Rawley]] in an interview for the Transformers Collector's Club magazine: ''"One that comes to mind right away is Bludgeon. We even started early design sketches for him but the fact that he would transform into a tank, in a line that had a lot of tank-like vehicles in it, meant that he would have to be put on hold... for now.''</ref> It seems likely those early plans were eventualy developed into the [[Bludgeon (ROTF)|''ROTF'' Bludgeon toy]] due in 2010.

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* [http://www.builtstlouis.net/tf/bludgeon/index.html The Bludgeon Home Page]

[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Decepticon leaders]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category:Martial artists]]
[[Category:Mayhem Attack Squad]]
[[Category:Pretenders]]
[[Category:Unicron-related characters]]

Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)

2009-10-01T13:35:59Z

76.28.72.27: /* Pre-Production */ typo

'''''Transformers 3''''' (actual title to follow) is scheduled to be released on [[July 1]], [[2011]]. <ref>http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5976 "Official 2011," Shootfortheedit.com</ref>

==Pre-Production==

*Oct 1, 2009 was announced as "Day One" of preproduction work by Michael Bay on his forum. A story has apparently already been worked out. The day began with a meeting between Bay and ILM which was followed by Bay and writer [[Ehren Kruger]] flying to Rhode Island to meet with Hasbro about new characters.

==Footnotes==
<references/>

[[Category: Films]]

Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)

2009-10-01T13:35:27Z

76.28.72.27: Officially released info is cool, right

'''''Transformers 3''''' (actual title to follow) is scheduled to be released on [[July 1]], [[2011]]. <ref>http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5976 "Official 2011," Shootfortheedit.com</ref>

==Pre-Production==

*Oct 1, 2009 was announced as "Day One" of preproduction work by Michael Bay on his forum. A story has apparently already been worked out. The day began with a meeting between Bay and IDW which was followed by Bay and writer [[Ehren Kruger]] flying to Rhode Island to meet with Hasbro about new characters.

==Footnotes==
<references/>

[[Category: Films]]

Talk:Autobot (G2)

2009-09-08T00:21:09Z

76.28.72.27:

Comparing his package to [http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/g2/sideswipe/1605/1/0/ other G2 packages], on his package "Watch" is where the name is on other packages, so I think his name might actually be "Watch." - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:29, 7 September 2009 (EDT)
:Well, how was the packaging for the other watches formatted? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:54, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3EJ_tWizhPc/ShRsf3ac7lI/AAAAAAAABto/rjzMpisFpeU/s1600-h/Watch+card.jpg Back of Watch Package]. This seems to firmly establish that his name is indeed "Autobot." --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 20:21, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

Ground Surveillance Team

2009-09-06T20:09:50Z

76.28.72.27: Wow for articles that say so little these were really messed up

{{factions|minicon|decepticon}}

:''The Ground Surveillance Team is a [[Mini-Con]] team from the [[Armada (franchise)|Armada]] portion of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] [[continuity family]].''

The '''Ground Surveillance Team''' is a team of five [[Decepticon]] [[Mini-Con]]s.

The Ground Surveillance Team consists of...
*[[Scavenger (Universe 2008)|Scavenger]] the wolf.
*[[Longview (Universe)|Longview]] the eagle.
*[[Snow Cat (Universe)|Snow Cat]] the white tiger.
*[[Treadshot (Universe 2008)|Treadshot]] the tank.
*[[Crosshairs (Universe)|Crosshairs]] the Apache helicopter.

==Toys==
===Universe (2008)===
====Armada Series====
*'''Mini-Con 10-Pack''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

[[Category:Armada]]
[[Category:Mini-Con teams]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

Talk:Battle Support Team

2009-09-06T19:59:43Z

76.28.72.27: New page: Are these the Battle Support team or the Ground whatever team? Article currently calls them both. --~~~~

Are these the Battle Support team or the Ground whatever team? Article currently calls them both. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 15:59, 6 September 2009 (EDT)