MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Thirteen

2009-06-23T09:16:37Z

79.67.234.198: /* Twelve Apostles */

{{Note|At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, [[Forest Lee]] (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen '''was''' a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky}}

==Multiversal singularities==
Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... ''*cough*predaconpolitics*cough*''

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. ''I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks '''so hard''' Gregory!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them? :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 1977. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all?
--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]]

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a [[WARendfeld]] story anyway.

''(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic''

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -[[User:LV|LV]] 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being?
(Way to be obscure: There's a ''Doctor Who'' story called ''The City of Death'' which has a neat example, but moving on...)
This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way.
Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense.
[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

:Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me '''where''' this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

::and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

:Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's '''possible''' that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

:But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

:Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his ''Ninth Emergence.'' That's not infinite realities. That's '''nine''' realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just '''lying''' for no reason?

:My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it '''doesn't make sense''', not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that '''no''' possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

:Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs '''explicitly told''' that no, that's '''not''' the case. So... bah. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

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Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for [[Talk:Last_Autobot]].

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
:(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
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As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

:Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -[[User:TheTurnipKing|TTK]]

::::::The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story [[Reaching the Omega Point]]. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the [[Covenant]], 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Implicitly, [[Primon]] must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -[[User:LV|LV]] 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.
::::::::: [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Liegemaximo.jpg] Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -[[User:LV|LV]] 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
: Done. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

=="Original"?==
Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created ''for'' Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
:Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

== The Ancients ==

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
:In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", [[Vector Prime]] is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

:According to the background settings of ''Galaxy Force'' anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

:Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html The World of Transformers], the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

:So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.
::Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:: Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Derik, what the hell. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::Y'know, ''by definition'' if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::[[Author intent]] should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters [[Geosensus]] and [[Paddles]] is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills ''half'' of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not '''deleted''' it, '''moved'''), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight. 
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::That occurred to me too... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
::Correct. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=301252&oldid=301026 MM edit 1 diff], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301252 Willis adds a duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301254 MM removes duplicate], [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Thirteen_original_Transformers&diff=next&oldid=301257 Willis reverts previous edit]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

:::Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

== Nexus Maximus ==

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. [[Special:Contributions/76.240.201.195|76.240.201.195]] 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

==Defiance==
To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
:The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. [[:Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|This is]] the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

== Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations ==

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it ''obfuscates'' information to obey some sort of semantic point.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race ''and'' 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were ''not like us''. They were special and were to be the first of ''your race''. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have [[Beta]] in the Female Transformers category. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
::That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't ''born'' with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Nuke it from orbit. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS '''awfully''' messy.)
:...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, is ''that'' what's going on? ''<tt>slowpoke.jpg</tt>''
::::Well, I've certainly been there myself! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

== Prima ==

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Which continuity, and sauce? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::::But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.
::::If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Pri''mon'' however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is ''probable'', but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.
:Nevertheless, it got ''me'' to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their '''leader'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
{{quote|In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.|Tocqueville}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
=="New Divide" video==
Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Which one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::[[Image:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg|thumb|300px|I wonder which one Vector Prime is!]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

:What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Maybe we can wilfully ignore {{redact|the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]] stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.}} --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)
::::::So even if the {{redact|the ancient Primes being the 13}} is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.
::::::The real question is how ''subsequent'' fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating {{redact|the ancient Primes are the 13}} then that's a problem we have to deal with.
::::::I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be {{redact|there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another}} and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Also, re:{{redact|Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.}} Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching [http://emopanda.com/tmp/eps/Linkin_Park_-_New_Divide.mp4 New Divide] and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above {{redact|from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE}}? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Haha, this is where it gets {{redact|metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics}} [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to ''explicitly'' answer it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a yes. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the ''only'' members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die '''twice''' and their corpses show up in different universes? {{redact|for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

== Logos Prime ==

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Twelve Apostles ==

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:
*Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
*The Fallen is obviously Judas.
*Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:We have a good source for that comparison with [[Lorenzo di Bonaventura]]'s interview in ''Toyfare'' (February 2009). [[Special:Contributions/79.67.234.198|79.67.234.198]] 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Jetfire (Movie)

2009-06-23T09:16:29Z

79.67.234.198:

{{factions|decepticon|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Jetfire}}
:''Jetfire is a [[Decepticon]] and [[Autobot]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:ROFT Jetfire Bay clip.jpg|thumb|350px|Rust in my aft you say!?]]

'''Jetfire'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s not what he used to be. His body went south years back. His bunny is dead on the wheel. He's got rust in places he didn't even know he had. Basically, Jetfire's old! An ancient Decepticon [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]], Jetfire was around long before the war broke out, and unlike many, came to see his "comrades" for what they were. This caused him to defect to the Autobots, something virtually unheard of. He's a fine asset, powerful and possessing the ability to teleport across great distances. This is slightly offset by the fact he's so old, his processor gave up the ghost millennia ago. These days he has a hard enough time remembering his name. It makes him a bit of crotchety and also leaves him with the nagging feeling he's forgotten something important.

{{quote|My father was the wheel! The ''first'' wheel! And do you know what he transformed into? ''Nothing!'' But he did it ''with honor!''|Jetfire suffers the seven signs of aging|[[Revenge of the Fallen]]}}

==Fiction==
===IDW ''Transformers'' movie comics===
[[Image:Defiance4_Jetfire.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Hopefully I won't end up on some [[earth|god forsaken planet]] and be infested with [[Maximal|disgusting little critters.]]]]
In the distant past, the [[All Spark (Movie)|All Spark]] Cube created [[Thirteen original Transformers|a race]] of powerful, trans-dimensional beings as the first inhabitants of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. The Cube gave these beings mighty powers, as well as terraforming their world, but it was not limitless, and gradually became depleted. The first beings learned that the All Spark's power could be replenished by harvesting the energy of stars, but they were unable to locate new stars to suit their purposes, despite their amazing ability to travel between dimensions. Once again, the Cube came to the rescue, creating a race of workers, who had the ability to change their shape.

Jetfire was among the very first of these new beings, a "[[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]]" with the ability to travel across the vastness of space in search of new suns. Once located, he would lead others and his masters back to it so a [[harvester]] could be constructed to drain the energy of these stars, thus replenishing the All Spark. {{Storylink|Defiance issue 4}} It is assumed that at some point during the civil war on Cybertron, he sided with [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], the new protege of Jetfire's only surviving ancient master, [[The Fallen]].
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Mark Ryan]]

{{comingsoon}}
{{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen (film)}}

{{-}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class toys====
[[Image:ROTF Jetfire 2009 Legends.JPG|right|250px|thumb|It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage.]]
*'''Jetfire''' (Legends class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''EZ-05'''

:Legends class ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Jetfire transforms from a into a tiny [[Wikipedia: SR-71 Blackbird|SR-71 Blackbird]] spy plane to a sort of hunchback robot. In a bit of character design accuracy, his left arm has a cane.

:The upper fuselage of the plane mode has a thin rectangular peg for a ''mysterious'' reason.
{{-}}

====Leader Class toys====
[[Image:Jetfire ROTF leader toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|"You know, I've personally flown over 194 missions, and I was shot down in every one. Come to think of it, I've never landed a plane in my life."]]
*'''Jetfire''' (Leader class, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RA-13'''
**''Accessories:'' Front landing gear/walking stick, rotary cannon missile launcher, projectile

:Jetfire features electronic lights and sounds. And by sounds, we mean he talks like a Yorkshireman. Seriously.
{{comingsoontoy}}

{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Jetfire ROTF FAB toy.jpg|right|thumb|300px|NOBODY MOVE...I dropped me cane...]]
*'''Photon Missile Jetfire''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)
**''Accessories:'' "Photon Missile" projectile

: [[Fast Action Battler]] Jetfire is a simplified, roughly Deluxe-sized toy of Jetfire. In vehicle mode, he transforms into a sort of cute, super-deformed SR-71 Blackbird jet. As with most ''Transformers'' toy jets, he has a fair bit of undercarriage junk from his robot mode, though not to the extent of the Leader class toy. In robot mode he has a reasonably accurate depiction of Jetfire's design, though his right arm ends in a spring-loaded projectile launcher shaped like a rotary cannon.
{{-}}

==Notes==
* Jetfire's ancient cybertronian vehicle mode as seen in [[IDW Publishing]]'s "[[Defiance issue 4]]" bears more than a passing similarity with the starship ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]'' from ''[[Beast Wars]]''.

[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Elderly Transformers]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Seekers]]
[[Category:Turncoats]]

DreamWorks

2009-06-22T19:30:23Z

79.67.234.198: /* History */

'''DreamWorks L.L.C.''' is a California entertainment company, involved in the creation and marketing of movies, television shows, animated productions, and more. They produce the [[Live-action film series]], thus earning a place in our hearts. Or, at least, a place in this wiki.

==History==
Founded in 1994 by [[Steven Spielberg]], [[wikipedia:Jeffrey Katzenberg|Jeffrey Katzenberg]] and [[wikipedia:David Geffen|David Geffen]], Dreamworks is best known for the [[wikipedia:Shrek|''Shrek'']] series of films, which are the highest-grossing animated films of all time. Dreamworks was purchased by Viacom in 2006, becoming part of [[Paramount Pictures]]. During 2008 and 2009, Dreamworks began a painful divorce from Paramount. Their next live-action projects will be released by Touchstone (that's Disney's banner for grown-up films) although the ''Transformers'' franchise shall remain a Paramount co-production.

==External links==
*[http://www.dreamworks.com/dreamworks_home.html DreamWorks' Website]
*[[Wikipedia:DreamWorks|DreamWorks at Wikipedia]]

{{stub}}

[[Category: Companies]]
[[Category: DreamWorks| ]]
[[Category: Movie]]