MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Deceptitran

2010-03-28T17:26:44Z

81.108.237.26: /* WTF? */

This is currently editing as a normal user account, not a bot account. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:35, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

:I noticed, but Scout isn't online to fix it. -Derik

== WTF? ==

[http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Talk:Shaoshao_Li&action=history Why did this bot pull an Assaulthead on me?] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:03, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
:...I do not know. But I confess-- I totally laughed.
:(At a guess I wasn't paying attention when I added items from the move log.) -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 22:16, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, he wasn't password protected until after that happened, Assaulthead testing his capabilities?[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:26, 28 March 2010 (EDT)

== Blanking ==

...I'm going to assume that the recent blankings were because of a code error and not signs that Deceptitran has both gained sentience and become a vandal. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 01:13, 5 January 2010 (EST)
:If anyone ever ends up managing to create a sentient wikibot, it will probably be Derik. (And probably by accident.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:27, 5 January 2010 (EST)
::Well Deceptitran did do something very vandalish (see above). :) [[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 17:02, 22 January 2010 (EST)

Talk:Soundwave (Animated)

2010-03-07T21:25:58Z

81.108.237.26: Undo revision 431940 by Eire (Talk) So, uh, WHY does half the page have to go? Is there a rule or something saying to delete half of every talk page?

Looks like a Scion XB to me.

Too much damn awesome-sauce

I wonder if Rumble and Frezy will transform into amplifiers. That would be awesome. -[[User:Hepathos|Hepathos]] 22:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
:If Rumble, Frenzy and Ravage are in this series.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 03:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:Rumble and Frenzy should be a drum kit.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:39, 25 January 2010 (EST)

== Voice? ==

But all this ignores the most burning question: Is his voice as awesome as the original's? [[User:JW|JW]] 15:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== voice???? ==

-I am not too sure about this, I mean, Jeff Bennett is great but can he do a soundwave voice. soundwave looks awesome but I hope he doesn't end up up like cybertron soundwave. Sadly he is verging on that path. Cybertron soundwave's look weas cool but his voice leaved a lot to be desired.-[[User:FIELDMAN 298]]

:Actually, that's wrong. Cybertron Soundwave's vocal mannerisms rocked on high, and his toy sucked donkey dick. I PRAY Animated Soundwave does the deadpan rave DJ thing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

::To be honest, I found the effects done on Soundwave's voice a bit overdone. Don't know how to explain it, but the audio effects just kept layering over the original dialogue, until the words are misheard or not comprehensible at all. I think J. Bennett did a good job, 'cause Soundwave...sounds melodious, but they need to tone down on the effects, 'cause I felt stupid not understanding what he said, and a little annoying. --[[User:akindofdrifter|akindofdrifter]] 25/02/2008

== Ending of Sound and Fury ==

Just as a side note people left out. They cliff hangered it with a cassette tape which people failed to mention. Kinda a G1 homage if you ask me.
:IT'S NOT A CASSETTE TAPE. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::http://youtube.com/watch?v=cnRgM6CBjSY <----10:45-10:50, tell me thats not a cassette tape.--Bestautobotevar 21:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Have you ever seen a cassette tape in your life? They have spools, not a ''video screen''. It's not a cassette player, either. It's a homage to the original Soundwave, which transformed into a ''cassette player''. Looking like something does not make it the same thing. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::Okay, what do you want to call it? A tape deck? Yes, lets call it a tape deck because obviously thats the only thing that makes sense. The video screen is probably where the cassettes go, possibly refering to the appearance of laser beak in his next episode.--[[User:Sunstreaker|Sunstreaker]] 23:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Or maybe it's just a generic part that's a homage of the original Soundwave and not any of those fucking things? Why the fuck is this so intensely difficult for you to understand? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::Because I think its not just a homage, him being like that espicially after he was "destroyed" obviously has relevance to his re-appearance in later episodes.--[[User:Sunstreaker|Sunstreaker]] 23:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::And you have evidence for this beyond your bullshit wish-speculation? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Guys, we know he'll come back, so, guess what? He turned into a tapedeck, in an homage to G1, so shut the hell up.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 03:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::That makes no sense. He's coming back, so that means he's a tapedeck? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::It may very well be a tape deck. However, nothing official has shown that it actually ''is'' a tape deck, so calling it anything is nothing more than speculation. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 03:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Can we just agree that the ending of this ep was an obvious homage to G1 Soundwave, and it doesn't really matter whether he was actually a tape deck, or just looked like one. Hell, who knows? Maybe in Future Detroit, they use technology vaguely resembling 80's cassette tapes. It works in ''[[wikipedia: Neuromancer|Neuromancer]]'', so why not here?--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 03:33, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

People, people...he was a tape '''recorder'''.--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 03:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's end this ridiculous argument and call it some kind of media player. -- [[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 15:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
:There's still nothing to indicate that. What part of this do you still not comprehend? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
: What is this fighting about? that...thing we saw at the end was playing and doing nothing , so how can anyone know if he's an ipod/tape-deck/CD-player/anything? it's just ment to be an homage to the original's alt mode, and that's all it's ment to be.--[[User:Grand-majin|Grand-majin]] 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Yes, he's some kind of media player, we don't know what the hell he is, so, let's end this. [[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 17:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Everyone seems not to notice that he has Kamina glasses.
:you seem to have not noticed that everybody did--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 15:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

== Soundwave toy article ==

Should this also get a mention now that it apeared in 3 episodes of animated, and that there are individual soundwave toys apart from soundwave himself?--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 12:05, 25 April 2009 (EDT)
:The toys are all under the control of Soundwave himself. They effectively ''are'' him. Maybe a drone article, but bear in mind that any one of them can be him at any given moment.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:47, 25 April 2009 (EDT)
::The last bit remaining after Soundwave got smashed was that tape deck/Ipod/magic box that lazerbeak swiftly took away. So he IS limited to something to maintain existing, so all of the Soundwave drones are extensions of Soundwave, but are not Soundwave himself.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 14:57, 25 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, while you were replying, I typed up [[Sound Wave|this]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:02, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== Eletrostatic Soundwave ==

Derrick Wyatt confirmed the homage to Soundblaster: [https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21975298&postID=2651750194918407594&isPopup=true].

Talk:Soundwave (Animated)

2010-03-02T17:58:16Z

81.108.237.26: Undo revision 419456 by Interrobang (Talk) Why exactly did you remove half the page?

Talk:Transformers: Kiss Players (franchise)

2010-02-28T16:52:02Z

81.108.237.26: /* Things that shouldn't exist */

It's probably worth noting that the text above "Kiss-Players" in the logo, キスぷれ (KISUPURE) is actually "Kiss-Play", and not what the subtitle would suggest. I have no idea what that means in regard to what this damn line is actually called. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 21:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
: Aha. So there are two potential names, and the article is named neither of them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
: Fixed. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] 05:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
: This should probably be KissPlay or Kiss Play, with a note indicating that "Kiss Players" appears in English below the title logo.

::Based on the layout of the logo, and the fact that it appears there in English, I'm inclined to take "Kiss Players" as the intended English title. Is that dumb of me? Do Japanese product logos often have an almost-identical English rendering side-by-side with the Japanese name just for the sake of coolness, and not indicating anything meaningful? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

:::It's not dumb at all, but I'd go for Kiss Play, the one we know for sure is right, since there's a long and sordid history of mis-Anglicizations in Japanese names and logos. The alternative is to call Marissa "Melissa", Autrooper "Autor/looper", etc.
::::Minelba! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::"キスぷれ" would be considered a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_abbreviated_and_contracted_words|Japanese abbreviation]. If it was supposed to actually be "Kiss Play" it would be キスぷれい or キスぷれー.　[[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] 06:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::Historically, that would be correct. However, there has been a modern trend of leaving out the trailing dash. "Cosplay" ("costume play"), from which "Kiss Play" is almost certainly derived, doesn't have it either: コスプレ
::--[[User:Swift|Swift]] 14:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to Steve-o's question two months ago: I'm not sure how common it is, but the logo for the anime [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futari_wa_Pretty_Cure Pretty Cure] says "purikyua" ("precure"), with the English text "Pretty Cure" underneath. In the series, it is consistently pronounced "puriti kyua," but when one of the characters spells it out she says "pu ri kyu a." I don't know ''why'' this was done, but it seems that the given English title is the series's "real" name. I strongly suspect that the discrepancy between "kisupure" and "Kiss Players" is a similar situation, given that "Kiss Players" refers to something of importance within the series. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Did It's Walky! predict Kiss Players years before it happened? I'll let you decide: http://www.itswalky.com/d/20010617.html - [[User:67.172.162.93|67.172.162.93]] 13:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

:Yea verily, IT'S WALKY hath truly predicted multitudes of apocalypses and plagues, but in this case you'd better go and google up "Turbo Teen".--[[User:Autobus Prime|Autobus Prime]] 14:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

== Edit ==

Why was the large bulk of this article removed?--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 16:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:Most likely Chris is moving info to Kiss Players (Toyline) and Kiss Players (fiction) sections. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::Give that man a cookie! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

== Naming Question ==

Okay, now that I've changed every use of "Kiss Play Position" that I can find to "Kiss Players Position," it suddenly strikes me...should we really be separating the two in articles outside the main ones? In other words, should the Sparkbots' and Cassetrons' articles (etc.) really describe their fictional appearances as taking place in KPP rather than just Kiss Players? Whether they're meant to be in any way separate series is kind of debatable. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 02:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:I'd say it's not worth it (as is probably obvious, since I've lumped both KP and KPP together in... everything, so far) but others might disagree. - Chris McFeely (not signed in) 12:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, should we have a disambig page that links to an entry for "Kiss Players (Singing Group)", since that's also the name of the pop group in KPP? --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 12:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:Ooh, yes, probably. In fact, maybe we might even need a "Kiss Players (characters)" or something like that,for the actual individuals with the powers. - Chris McFeely (not signed in) 12:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Since this article is already disambig'd, shouldn't it be moved to [[Kiss Players (franchise)]]? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Yes, it should. However, there are [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Kiss_Players|a LOT of links to this article]]. I can have the Diagnostic Drone change them all quite easily, but I imagine at least some of them would be better directed to one of the other related pages like [[Kiss Players (manga)]], [[Kiss Players (radio drama)]], [[Kiss Players (singing group)]], etc., so I'm reluctant to just do a mass text-replacement on them all. I don't suppose somebody besides me feels like sorting those out, huh? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== You bastards finally did it. ==

After splitting the article, and numerous character updates, I am confident that this wiki has the most extensive, accurate, and informative coverage of Kiss Players canon in the English language.

And this fills me with dread. A deep, chilling dread, like that no doubt felt by many a character in H.P. Lovecraft's lurid works.

May God have mercy on us all.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 22:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

: Aaaand, with Primus and Unicron finally added, I believe I can say with some confidence that Kiss Play and Teletraan Go! Go! are 99% complete. Just a few odds and ends left to update some day soon. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 23:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
::Is this manga compilation for sale anywhere? It looks cracktastic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:::It was unexpectedly made available at Wonder Festival 2007 in August. Not sure if it's being sold outside the show. Which is a shame, because it's insane and everyone should own it. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 23:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Right, I meant- is it for sale on the secondary market? Anyplace that uses the e-Hobby primus toy to represent Primus himself is awesome in my book. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::Fantofan.jp had...one, I think. No idea if they still have it in stock. Apart from that, not a clue. (Note also what was used to represent Unicron. Wait, e-Hobby? Wasn't it just a Lucky Draw-type contest prize?) --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 00:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
::::::Clearly, we need an intenet petition for an american translation, Clearly. Guys? Hello? --[[User:Zodberg|Zodberg]] 00:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Ummm... No.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 02:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

== Things that shouldn't exist ==

We have things that don't exist as a category, if only there was a things that ''shouldn't'' exist category to put this into.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 10:51, 6 February 2010 (EST)
:No. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:00, 6 February 2010 (EST)
::I'm not suggesting we make the category, I'm just saying![[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:52, 28 February 2010 (EST)

Talk:Devastator (ROTF)

2010-02-23T18:43:32Z

81.108.237.26: /* Larger Legends class */

== Seven vehicles ==
Paramount listing mention 7 constructicons vehicles, Overload is the not-mentioned-before seventh one:
http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/04/01/tranformers-2-robots-announced/ --[[User:GUIGUI|GUIGUI]] 17:33, 2 April 2009 (EDT)
:Can we put somewhere on this page a link to either the seven Constructicons or the group page?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:04, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

: A leaked image of legends class construction group even cofirms it...and might i add that they actualy combine into devastator?--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 05:47, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Not to us though. You just said a ''leaked'' image of the Constructicons, we only use ''confirmed'' news about this stuff (Hasbro, Wal-Mart, Target, etc.). Until then, Devastator only has six components.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 10:51, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I withdraw my previous statement.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 10:57, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

Was the Paramount listing officially released? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:54, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
: Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:06, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

I gather [http://tformers.com/transformers-takara-announces-revenge-of-the-fallen-transformable-legends-devastator-combiner/11492/news.html Takara] has an upcoming toy that makes the whole thing ''much'' clearer.

Can someone who is ''not'' me use this to add altmodes to the list of names? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:56, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

* 2010 for Legends class? Say it ain't so! [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 18:42, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

Should Devastator's various toy descriptions be revised? Majorish spoilers: In the film, there are at least two sets of constructicons, as they appear both as induviduals and as Devastator simultaniously, or else shown to be incapacitated to such a degree that the could not be a part of him. More importantly, the ones that form Devastator are not shown to have robot modes of their own.(although the supreme toy is still inacurate since Overload's vehicle is a clear part of Devastator) The acuracy of the figures should not have been brought into question before there was something to compare them to. Simple as that.[[User:Thelastallosaur|Thelastallosaur]] 18:38, 20 June 2009 (ED

In what stores will Legends Devastator be available in the US? [[Special:Contributions/205.188.117.8|205.188.117.8]] 17:43, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

;Another interview
Micheal Bay confirmed that Devastator is combined from seven vehicles. And, seems each individual is able to transform (Oh...) just like the Legends class. ''Argh''.
http://www.michaelbay.com/newsblog/files/9f78f1359c3d0e8c32795a6033cceab2-551.html
:''In the final cut, much of that scene is dominated by CG-animated alien robots, including Devastator — ''the new villain made out of seven individual robots'' who hide in the form of construction equipment. But the flesh-and-blood actors also got to romp on the pyramids.''
--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 03:28, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::That article was written for ''USA Today'', it is not a quote from Bay, and as the film shows, Devy is made of more than seven vehicles, his right hand is separate from his arm, plus there's a blue and yellow dump truck that shows up above the pit he combines in. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 19:04, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

==Blind packaged?==
Where has it been stated that the EZ Constructicons would be blind-packed in Japan? The other EZ guys are, but that seems to be a different assortment to the Constructicons, who were shown in US Legends-like packaging once at some show, and at least HLJ is selling them separately. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:15, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:They will be blind packed as it would be seriously stupid to sell them so you know exactly what you get when each case contains a case figure. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:28, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
::In what sense is it "seriously stupid"? It's logical, and perhaps inevitable, given that the rest of the EZ Collection are blind-packed, but it's not a dumb question for Mazenoise to ask. Devastator's a combiner. Even non-collectors are going to want to catch them all in that instance. If they're blind-packed, that's going to be a nightmare. (I'm still figuring the number of packs you'd need to buy to get even a 50/50 chance of completing the set.) Of course, given the relative crappiness of some of the Legends Constructicons, if they're not blind packed then the distribution will shift in favour of pegwarmers over time, which would ''also'' be unfavourable for people trying to complete the set. [[Special:Contributions/137.195.68.169|137.195.68.169]] 07:11, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant it would be stupid if they weren't blind packed as that way you would know what you get so you could easily pick the rare case figure. And these aren't part of the normal EZ collection but of a special Devastator set, each case contains 3.5 Devastators and a case figure.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 09:20, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah, got you, I misunderstood you. So we're on the same page then. [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 10:35, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::So turns out their not blindpacked. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 08:06, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::Everyone's a winner! [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 18:19, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

== Voiced? ==

Unless I missed something else the second time I watched the movie, that is not Devastator speaking, it is Megatron announcing/shouting to him. So Devastator doesn't speak, just roars.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:55, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:Welker often does... less verbose critters, where he just growls or makes animal sounds. There's a few he's even famous for.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he voised him in the game and the voise-box of the toy.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 08:25, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== Film-specific transformation? ==

Okay, I know the toys can only approximate the live-action design, but Devastator's combination doesn't seem to be at all consistent. To ''start'' with, the shots of the construction vehicles arriving in the canyon are off; Scrapper and Hightower are on Mixmaster's right and Overload's on his left, with Scavenger behind the other vehicles, and Rampage and Long Haul on a higher-level cliff edge. When the combination starts, however, Scrapper's on the left of Scavenger, Mixmaster is in front of the others and Overload seems to have completely disappeared. Maybe the big D ''is'' a six-Con combiner after all?

It gets worse when, from what I can tell, Rampage (who's actually on ground level along with Long Haul) apparently gets picked up by Hightower to become D's ''left hand''. What the hell forms the left leg, then? Did Overload switch jobs and colour scheme when nobody was looking? I'd seriously appreciate some help in a consensus on what happened. [[User:Tarrn|Tarrn]] 07:51, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::It all just got swallowed into a writhing mass of metal, and reemerged where it should have been all along, apparently.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 20:22, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:Yes, the set-up scene with the vehicles driving up was wrong, but set that aside. Overload does not, in any way, form part of Devastator! Rampage transforms wrong, he transforms like Scavenger, with his scoop breaking into three pieces. Devastator's left arm (which already has Hightower attached) slams down on top of Rampage to form... a longer arm. You also don't see Long Haul actually attach to Devastator, but he does begin his transformation sequence. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:58, 24 July 2009 (EDT)
::Hightower does not slam down on top of Rampage to complete the arm. That is a [[Unknown Constructicon shovel|completely different vehicle mode and Transformer]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:20, 21 January 2010 (EST)
On the left of hightower you see zee little on once the transformation starts.

== Non-individual transformation ==

I've read the Battle bio, but I haven't read the Movie Universe Ultimate Guide. I'd like to know what is written about Devastator's entry in the book because I think "In the film, none of the components of Devastator are shown as individual Transformers. This would justify why the components of the Constructicon Devastator playset to have no individual humanoid modes" is still notable. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:08, 22 July 2009 (EDT)
:"Did you know? ... The individual intellects of the six Constructicons are largely lost during the combination process." [http://transformerslive.blogspot.com/2009/07/ask-orci-final-edition.html Roberto Orci was also asked about it] and said, "I suppose since we didn't commit either way, I wouldn't want to tie the hands of future writers with my non-canon opinion." So the writers didn't commit either way, which means the work of "future writers" settles the matter. So far that means the battle bio and The Movie Universe. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:22, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

::So it seems safe to add back only "In the film, none of Devastator's components are shown as individual Transformers. This would(might) justify why the components of his Supereme class toy to have no individual humanoid modes.", since the note doesn't mention any speculation whether Devastator is not a combiner or any suggestion which contradicts to the bio. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 08:39, 23 July 2009 (EDT)

== Wrecking balls? ==

Those are overhaul balls! The one had a hook on it. That's a major clue, because a hook on a wrecking ball would quickly become scrap.

They're not for demolition; they're to make sure the relatively light hook goes down smoothly when lowered.

Those where maybe hightowers and he also seems to be part dragon

== Two Rampages form Devastator? ==

That is a good catch if it is true. I didn't notice. Can it be confirmed that two Rampages formed Devastator in the film? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:59, 24 July 2009 (EDT)
:And what is Overload's bullet? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:01, 24 July 2009 (EDT)
::Overload's bullet specifies that it's not always a part of Devastator in every medium. If the twin Rampage thing turns out to be true ''for the movie'', it needs to have the same qualification to it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 23:10, 24 July 2009 (EDT)
:Don't know how canonical it is, but one of Devastator's promotional art pieces (http://idigitalcitizen.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/1440x960-devastator-specs.jpg) definitely has two sets of treads in the left leg - one as the foot, one up in the knee, and comparing the size of the treads to the leg itself it'd need two Rampages to have that much mass. I haven't seen a good enough shot of his leg in any other media to confirm this. Should it be three, though? It definitely seemed like a third Rampage became the left hand. [[User:Tarrn|Tarrn]] 18:56, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
::That same piece of art labels the left leg as "Rampage component" (singular). I'm not sure who originally wrote that there were two Rampages or why, but I think it is because in the movie Transformation sequence Rampage forms part of the left arm along with Hightower. It is not shown where Devastator gets his left leg but presumably it is (also) Rampage. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:27, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:That bit for the knee doesn't look like the same kind of tread, though. It could be an unwrapped wheel, like with Scrapper.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 23:46, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
----------------
Well, i studyed it and I found something. Lets look on it when Construcitons arrive to canyon. Lets take it from Scavengers view as the center.
- Mixmaster is in front of him. Thats right.
- Hightower in on left side, thats right too.
- Scrapper is on right side along with Overload, but farrer like Hightower. When he arrive he is behind Overload but then he is in front of overload.
- Overload is on right side behind Scrapper.
- Long Haul is there twice!!! Because he isnt only on higher ground, but ALSO near Simmons and Leo.
- Rampage is on high ground along with one Long Haul.

So now we got there 8 Constructicons in the pit!!! Now transformations:

- Scavenger becomes body.
- Mixmaster becomes head combined with Scavenger (red).
- Hightower becomes left arm, but attachs "something" as its fist.
- Scrapper becomes "probably" right arm.
- Overload dissappears.
- Long Haul becames very quickly right leg.
- Rampage becomes quickly left leg.

So now there are only 2 Constructicons!!! What happened to Overload and second Long Haul? And also when he arrives he is also behind Overload AND on left side from Mixmaster. So there are 9 Constructicons. Now i will say my theory.

- Scavenger and Mixmaster are obvious.
- Hightower attach second Scrapper as his fist.
- First Scrapper becomes a right fist when Overload attach him.
- Overload became right arm.
- One Long Haul jump from the cliff and form right leg.
- Rampage also jump from the cliff and make left leg.

This explain some things, but still I dont know what exactly happened to second Long Haul near Twins and Simmons (and Leo)... hmmm. And if you really want to know that, why you simply dont send Email to Paramount, Hasbro or that other company r directly to Michael Bay how it really is with Devastator. Like his "balls", they should be from Hightower, but how something from his arm could be in his pelvis? [[User:V.Metalic|V.Metalic]] 20:10, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== Supreme Class Constructicon Devastator==
The second Supreme Class Devastator is impossible to find information about online. Does anyone know if this is a toy that is going to be released, or has it already been out? It looks like it is made up of the Legends Class figures, so does one have to buy all of the Legend Class vehicles to make Devastator? [[User:Fergalicious|Fergalicious]] 01:53, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:Um, what second Supreme Class Devastator?[[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 18:17, 5 September 2009 (EDT)
::I know what Fergalicious means. It's not a Supreme Class, it's just made of the Legends Constructicons. The size is really closer a Deluxe, if I'm right. [[User:Fallen13|Fallen13]] 20:02, 5 September 2009 (EDT)
::: Oh, right, the Legends ones. Yeah, it's out in Japan as a selection of EZ Collection Constructicons which you can collect and combine, but Hasbro's suggested that it'll bring them to the US (at the very least) as a store exclusive next year, containing all 7 Constructicons. [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 17:49, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

==Page protection==

Is this page still meant to be protected? [[Special:Contributions/137.195.68.169|137.195.68.169]] 05:08, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:Surely it can be unprotected by now![[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 14:51, 22 January 2010 (EST)

==Required components==

Couldn't it be possible that some of Devastator's components aren't ''required'' for combination, they're just extra parts that augment him internally to make him extra powerful. Also, the fact that there are a bunch of duplicates of his components would make it possible that there are lots of Devastators, wouldn't it. Correct me if I'm wrong. {{unsigned|70.100.242.133|12:33, November 6, 2009 (EST)}}
:You are basically right. It is possible. See [http://unicron-events-interviews.blogspot.com/2009/10/hasbro-q-10212009.html Hasbro's answer] to the question (#2). "...there are a race of Transformers called Combiners that are not limited to one form or method of combining. Needless to say, there are a lot of things that can happen within this and other races of Transformers." - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:45, 6 November 2009 (EST)

==Legends Class Poseablity==
"The only real drawback he has is that he almost has no articulation."
To be fair, he has about as much articulation as the G1 Devastator, and he holds together better. His arms swing out, he bends at the elbows. His hands open and close, his head moves and he has some wiggle in his legs.

== Talky Toy Tips ==

Didn't know about the clip-the-jaws-open trick before reading this. I'm not sure if I'll find it visually pleasing enough to utilize, but it's interesting to find out.

As for gabby Mixmaster, yeah, if you move him in any way in vehicle mode (or bump the surface on which he's sitting, or sometimes just look at him funny), his sound gimmick will go off. For some reason, however, mine seems a lot less talky in Devastator-head mode. Once you click the rear of the vehicle into place underneath it, switching the sound gimmick to robot mode, it isn't nearly as sensitive, and it's even less so once Mixmaster is plugged into place as part of Devastator.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 00:58, 25 December 2009 (EST)

== Argos ==

I didn't mean to imply that Argos had the UK exclusive. However it's definitely on sale, today, in Argos. Whether they have the exclusive or not is rather orthogonal. [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 16:46, 24 January 2010 (EST)

== Larger Legends class ==

There is a larger Legends class Devastator toy that, apart from the size, appears to be identical to the original. It is being sold on Ebay here http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9nzhgy
Should this go in?[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 14:07, 22 February 2010 (EST)
:No. Because it's a bootleg. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 14:13, 22 February 2010 (EST)
::Ah, thought so.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:43, 23 February 2010 (EST)

Enter the Nightbird

2010-02-22T19:13:11Z

81.108.237.26: /* Animation or technical glitches */

{{episode
|series=G1toon
|ep=26
|series2=SRLFtoon
|ep2=74
|image=EnterTheNightbird Nightbird starscream.jpg
|caption="All right, now hit Starscream in the groin-plate"
|title="Enter the Nightbird"
|production code=#700-25
|airdate=[[September 30]], 1985
|written by=[[Sylvia Wilson]] [[Richard Milton]]
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''The Decepticons capture Nightbird, a deadly ninja-bot, and turn her loose on the Autobots.'''

:''Japanese title:'' ナイトバードの影 (''Nightbird no Kage'', "The Shadow of Nightbird")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Nightbirdandfujiyama.jpg|left|175px|thumb|"No threat... not a threat at all."]]
The [[Autobot]]s are busily constructing [[detection plate]]s, a new invention of [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]]'s which will make the [[Ark (G1)|base]] more secure by detecting intruders. They're interrupted in their work by a call from [[Doctor Fujiyama the Famous Scientist]], requesting their help in guarding his latest invention during its unveiling to the world. [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus]] agrees when the doctor informs him that the invention is a sophisticated new robot. The Autobots attend the event, though Wheeljack and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] are more interested in mocking the invention. Finally Dr. Fujiyama unveils [[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]], a "female ninja robot". Predictably, the [[Decepticon]]s attack and immediately have the upper hand because the Autobots won’t fight in a hall crowded with humans. As soon as the humans are cleared out, Optimus orders a counter-attack, personally grappling with [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]. The Autobots are soon fully occupied, allowing [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] to tear the roof off the building, so that [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] can lasso Nightbird and carry the robot away. Their prize obtained, the rest of the Decepticons retreat.

They retire to Megatron's temporary base, a [[Giant Decepticon insignia|masterfully disguised fortress]], where [[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] sets to work reprogramming Nightbird and tripling her power. Her first action on being reactivated is to immediately attack Starscream, which gains Megatron's approval. [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]] gives her her new orders — infiltrate Autobot headquarters and steal the [[World Energy Chip]] from [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]].

Meanwhile, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus]] is apologetic for their abject failure to protect the robot, and promises to return it back to Dr. Fujiyama quickly and unharmed. The Autobots return to base, Ratchet carrying the injured [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]]. Nightbird soon arrives at Autobot HQ as well, avoiding a security camera by accessing the base through the top of the [[Mount St. Hilary|volcano]], eavesdropping on [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] and [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]'s puzzled conversation over the Decepticons' latest plan. She neatly avoids Wheeljack's detection plates by magnetizing her feet and walking along the roof. Reaching Teletraan I, she removes the World Energy Chip, plunging the base into darkness and alerting the Autobots to the intruder.

[[Image:Nightbirdspotlight.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Nightbird wants her own [[Spotlight (comics)|spotlight comic]].]]
In her attempt to escape, she first encounters [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] and bashes her way past the startled Autobot. A group of Autobots corners her, but are hampered by the promise they made not to harm her, and she is able to use her ninja abilities to blind them and effect a proper escape. The Autobots pursue her outside, where Optimus spots her on a clifftop and drops her with a stun ray. As [[Bluestreak]] approaches her, she suddenly jumps up and decks him before throwing more spinning blades at his comrades. Optimus stops [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] from firing on her, reminding him again of their promise to Dr. Fujiyama, then attempts to reason with Nightbird. The robot responds by attacking him with her energy sword and stealing his rifle, though she leaves her sword behind.

Watching remotely, Megatron and Bombshell are impressed with Nightbird's work. Starscream less so when Megatron suggests she would make a good replacement for the air commander.

Ratchet and [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] discover the absence of the World Energy Chip and notify Prime. Using [[Hound (G1)|Hound]]'s sensors, the Autobots quickly relocate Nightbird, and Optimus attempts to lure her closer with her sword. She merely takes the weapon and knocks him down. The Autobots continue their attempts, unsuccessfully, to try to bring the ninja 'bot down.

[[Image:Nightbirdprime.jpg|left|175px|thumb|Prime, taking advantage of the fact [[Elita One|Elita]]'s on [[Cybertron (planet)|another planet]].]]
Meanwhile, Starscream has had enough of Megatron's insinuations about replacing him, and decks his leader. He's swiftly restrained by the other Decepticons and trapped in a cage. Megatron turns back to his spying and, seeing that Nightbird has finally been caught by the Autobots in an energy web, orders the Decepticons out on a mission to rescue her and the World Energy Chip. Optimus is able to retrieve the Chip from Nightbird, but it's dropped in the subsequent Decepticon ambush. After a brief spell in Bombshell's possession, Optimus regains the chip, but Megatron responds by freeing Nightbird from her cage and unleashing her on the Autobots.

[[Image:Nightbirdangry.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Hell hath no fury like a Nightbird scorned.]]
Starscream uses a small missile to free himself from the cage in the Decepticon base, and swiftly reaches the battle in time to watch Nightbird overwhelming Optimus with her combat skills. Seeking revenge, the Decepticon uses his [[null-ray]] on Nightbird, disabling her. Megatron is enraged and calls off the attack so everyone can pursue Starscream.

The Autobots make good on their promise by returning Nightbird unharmed to Fujiyama, who decides to put her in storage. Despite being neutralized, Nightbird casts a final, angered glare out at the cold, cold, world.

{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (1)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (2)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (3)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] (4)
* [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (5)
* [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (6)
* [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (7)
* [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] (10)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (11)
* [[Bluestreak]] (15)
* [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (16)
* [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (21)

|c2=
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] (8)
* [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] (9)
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] (12)
* [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (13)
* [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]] (14)
* [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (17)
* [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] (18)
* [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] (19)
* [[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] (20)

|c3=
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]]
* [[Doctor Fujiyama the Famous Scientist]]

|c4=
*[[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]]
}}

==Quotes==
"Imagine, Autobots playing nursemaid to an earth robot. It's probably just a glorified wind-up toy."
:—Look who's talking, '''Wheeljack'''.

'''Ratchet''': Dr. Fujiyama's doohickey's under that drape! 
'''Wheeljack''': If it walks it probably needs a long extension cord. 
'''Ratchet''': Heh heh heh. I wonder if batteries are included? Heh, heh, heh. 
'''Wheeljack''': When they turn it on, it'll probably blow the lights! 
'''Optimus''': We're here to guard the robot, not make jokes at its expense.
:—Wheeljack and Ratchet, masters of diplomacy

"Ah, why build a robot ninja, doctor? Isn't that rather dangerous?"
:—The '''guy with the white mustache''' asks what we're all thinking.

"I bring you greetings, Optimus Prime...lethal greetings!"
:—'''Megatron'''. His writers don't get paid enough.

"I love warping minds for you, Megatron... love it!"
:—'''Bombshell''', the spokesman for ''Grand Theft Auto''.

"I'm open to suggestions... and you don't need to raise your hands before you speak."
:—Shouldn't '''Optimus Prime''' have said something like "raise your finger components" instead?

"She's not so hot!" 
"She's hot enough to replace you whenever I choose!"
:—'''Starscream''' and '''Megatron''' utter the words that launch a thousand [[fanfic]]s.

"Yes, you're definitely on my replacement list, Starscream... Hahaha, she's everything I've always wanted!"
:—'''Megatron'''. Aw, all he wanted was some love.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
* Throughout the entire episode, the volume of the background music is a notch or two lower than normal, making it sound rather unemphatic.
* The top of Ironhide's torso is colored red instead of gray as Wheeljack says his "nursemaid" line. In the same scene, the bottom of Wheeljack's "ears" aren't flashing along with the rest of them.
* The ''round'' auditorium building somehow contains a ''rectangular'' auditorium. Later shots show the auditorium as having a domed ceiling, which is consistent with the exterior shot but doesn't make a lick of sense spatially. As Optimus apologizes to Dr. Fujiyama later in the episode, the ruined auditorium is suddenly round. Also, the opening pan across the auditorium also shows it to be of ''incredibly '' huge scale.
* As he and Ratchet crack jokes about the robot, the top segment of the side of Wheeljack's chest is colored windshield blue instead of metal armor white.
* For the most part, the episode is ''amazingly'' consistent about where the Autobots are during the unveiling of Nightbird, but as the robot is revealed, Prowl and Mirage are shown right next to each other, when they were a hundred feet apart a second before.
* When Rumble and Frenzy break into the show room, Rumble's pile drivers are rectangular prisms instead of the usual cylinders.
* One gun, many lasers:
** Frenzy's lasers pass right through the fleeing humans without affecting them. He's also somehow firing like 5 or 6 lasers at once from his two guns.
* Rumble's crotch and thigh are bizarrely misdrawn during the low-angle shot of him earthquaking, as if they don't quite connect and his crotch panel is miscolored a rather attention-getting bright red during the same scene, calling the viewer's attention right to the drawing flub.
* When Optimus Prime gets shot in the back by Megatron, he grunts and oophs in Mirage's voice.
* The "triple power booster" that Bombshell places in Nightbird's torso couldn't possible fit in the space that's shown.
* Ratchet has no red detailing in ambulance mode as he offers a lift to Brawn.
* Ratchet has a side hatch instead of his usual rear hatch as Mirage loads Brawn into him. Brawn is loaded in sideways, meaning Ratchet is wider than Brawn is tall.
* Mirage shines a light on Nightbird from an area of his chest that clearly is not a light of any kind.
* The first commercial break totally cuts off the background music in mid-phrase.
* Cliffjumper's brow is missing its details and color as he aims at Nightbird.
* When Nightbird's lightsaber is shot and deactivated, the sound effects continue for about two more seconds before they stop.
* Jazz's mouth disappears for a second as he goes to help Prime to his feet.
* Missing Seeker emblems:
** Skywarp has no wing insignia as he watches the video screen in the [[Giant Decepticon insignia|Decepticon base]].
** Starscream has only one insignia as he punches Megatron. Skywarp has none a second later as he holds Starscream, and again as he backs away from the energy cage.
** Starscream has no insignia as he lands at the battle site.
** Thundercracker and Skywarp have no insignia as the Decepticons fly off after Starscream. In fact, Skywarp doesn't seem to have his insignia at any point during the episode. Seriously, is there a single episode where they didn't screw this up?
* Miscolored Seeker nosecones:
** Starscream's top and bottom cockpit segments are yellow instead of gray as Bombshell challenges him.
** Skywarp and Thundercracker both have all-yellow nosecones as they transform to leave the base.
** Skywarp's nosecone is gray as he and everybody else transforms and launches during the start of the battle.
** Starscream's nosecone goes from all-yellow to all-gray as he leaves the base and transforms.
** Starscream's bottom nosecone segment is yellow instead of gray as he laughs at Megatron. As he transforms and flies off, his nosecone is entirely yellow. Seriously, is there a single episode where they didn't screw ''this'' up?
* Why does Hound's infrared ''beep''? Is it a radar?
* As usual, Mirage only leaves footprints when he's invisible.
* "She jammed it!" Cliffjumper says, when Nightbird throws Bluestreak's missile into his glass gas nozzle. Couldn't he just... pull the missile out?
* It would appear the animators missed a note about what Starscream was supposed to do inside the energy cage. He's all like "You can't keep me in here, Megatron! AHHHHHHH!", as if he rushed the cage and got zapped by it or something, but the animation shows him just standing there, which makes it seem like he expects to shout the system down.
* Hound is missing all his chest details as Optimus reacts to Megatron's arrival. It suddenly appears as the Autobots attack.
* What on earth is that weird energy ripple sound effect as Starscream drops out of the sky? As Starscream lands, his eyes are blue instead of red.
* As Starscream knocks out Nightbird, the [[null ray]] gets a truncated Autobot laser sound effect instead of the Decepticon sound.
* A dialog or script editing flub results in Starscream bizarrely gloating "Say good night to your ''Megatron''!" after blasting Nightbird. Per the original script, the line was meant to go "Say good night to your <something>, Megatron!", but whatever the original noun was, it was crossed out in black and the word "Robotessa" was hand-written in its place. <ref>[http://www.theplumedserpent.com/SerpentsEye/ETN.html "Enter The Nightbird" episode review at The Serpent's Lair]</ref> The baffling question of what the heck a "Robotessa" is aside, this hand-written re-write was apparently overlooked when the dialogue script for the recording of the episode was written up, as the spoken line shows no signs of being edited or cut-and-pasted back together, indicating that Chris Latta genuinely spoke it aloud in recording as it appears in the show. It ''would'' make sense if Starscream was addressing it towards Nightbird, but he's not.
* The glow of Nightbird's eyes starts a second before the accompanying sound effect.

===Continuity errors===
* Wheeljack's detection panels don't make any sense. They're just glorified metal detectors, that react to metal, the very thing that the Autobots and Autobot Headquarters are made of. The Autobots put them all over the ''floor'', to detect their flight-capable enemies. So does that mean the Autobots can no longer use that particular corridor?
* The scientists' reactions to Nightbird seem a bit overwrought considering that the robot has yet to do anything besides stand there.
* Dr. Fujiyama assures us that Nightbird is "not meant for battles or assassinations" as we pan over the robot. So... just what ''are'' those short knives and nunchucks and throwing stars meant for? Is Nightbird supposed to ''stab'' her way into "the horizons of robotic research"?
* The Autobots didn't think to post anybody ''outside'' the building? Since that's, y'know, where the Decepticons would come from?
* Why do the Decepticons need a whole new base just for the Nightbird project? What possible advantage does it serve?
* When Prime apologizes for losing Nightbird to the Decepticons, Doctor Fujiyama's response is that no one could have predicted it happening. Except... that's why he called the Autobots in the first place! Being a rather stereotypical Japanese guy, maybe he's just too polite to tell Prime that he botched it.
* This is the only time that Autobot Headquarters is shown to have an elevator going up into the volcano's cone. [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 2|Earlier]] and [[Dinobot Island, Part 2|later]] episodes contradict this notion. And just what are Prowl and Spike doing up there, anyway?
* How come the detection panels don't go off when Nightbird waves her hand next to them?
* Why is Prime helping repair Brawn? Repairs aren't usually his gig.
* Improbable viewpoints:
** Why/how does Ratchet get a third-person view of Optimus and the others when he calls them up via Teletraan I?
** How is Megatron watching the whole battle from his base? Is Laserbeak there keeping tabs or something? Or is this another instance of him putting [[The Master Builders|cameras inside every random rock]]?
* At the end of the second act, Nightbird gets the drop on Prime and raises her sword as if to slice him in half. At the opening of the third act, however, she's just standing there in front of him, idly spinning the sword around, then turns and runs away for no real reason.
* Nightbird's "magnetic feet" reappear later in the episode, when she's climbing... a rock face.
* "Watch how my anti-matter blaster eats up energy!" Megatron says. We feel this amazing breach of science needs no further elaboration. (The intended idea ''may'' have been that the blaster is highly energy-consumptive and could absorb the energy net as a power supply or something; however, what's shown instead is that ''firing'' the gun ''at'' the energy net somehow dissipates it.)
* "I'm so glad you have returned Nightbird... and not a scratch on her chassis!" What about that big hole in her back from just the previous scene?
* "Safely locked up... ''forever''!" Why not just take her to pieces, then?

===Continuity notes===
* Gadgets and powers:
** Nightbird's gadgets: [[Wikipedia:Nunchaku|nunchaku]] (unused), a pair of [[Wikipedia:Sai (weapon)|''sai'' daggers]] (also unused), a wrist-mounted grappling hook, magnetic feet (they also work on rocks!), fist-replacing sawblades, [[Wikipedia:Metsubushi|some kind of spin/make bright light/disappear gimmick]], an endless supply of hip-stored energized [[Wikipedia:Shuriken|shuriken]], a lightsaber, another unused weapon which hilt is visible on her "backpack", a glowing magnetic tractor beam, and stereo speaker-nullifying metal donuts. Additionally, she vanishes after jumping over a cliff edge, leading Mirage to wonder if she has the power of invisibility.
** Cliffjumper's [[glass gas]] is a fiery glue-like substance in this episode, which he fires from a retractable wrist nozzle.
** Starscream can fire a tiny little missile from an elevating launcher on his wrist.
* In [[3H Productions|3H]]'s [[Universe (2003 comic)|''Universe'' comics]], Nightbird returned as a savage horde, which forced [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel Witwicky]] to kill himself and [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] to destroy them...which goes to show that they ''are'' good for something.
* [[Attack of the Autobots|<<]] '''Brawn vs. Soundwave''' Round 3 goes to Soundwave. Score: Brawn 2, Soundwave 1 [[Child's Play (episode)|>>]]

===Real-world references===
* The title could be a reference to the film ''[[wikipedia:Enter_the_Dragon|Enter the Dragon]]''. This would not be the last time the film is referenced in a Transformers series.
* ''Star Wars'' sound effects:
** Nightbird's lightsaber ignites with the standard Star Wars lightsaber effect, and gets the usual lightsaber-waving sound effects repeatedly when it's used.
** The seeker ball that Luke trains with aboard the ''Millennium Falcon'' can be heard darting about as Nightbird waves her sword at the approaching Optimus Prime.

===Trivia===
* The first ''female'' ninja robot? So are there already a lot of ''male'' ninja robots running around out there?

* Dr. Fujiyama's assertion that "the technical components are irreplaceable, and are needed for research" is... curious. If he built the thing himself, why would it be so impossible to manufacture new parts?

* When the Autobots are chasing Nightbird up a cliff, Cliffjumper can't jump the cliff. This has been the source of much fandom snickering over the years. Congratulations, fandom; you get the joke. Good job.

* Back in the late 1990s, this episode was at the center of a huge and long-running [[fandom]] flap on [[alt.toys.transformers]], initiated by [[Raksha|certain Decepticon fans]] who interpreted Nightbird's scowl as a clear sign that she was a sapient life form, rather than a mindless automaton. In conjunction with certain lines of dialog from Megatron, some fans further concluded that Nightbird could be seen as a romantic foil for Megatron. These arguments and the opposing viewpoints led to much agony for everyone involved.

* The [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave comic]] "[[Infestation]]" featured Nightbird in her own movie, aptly named ''[[Aztec Theatres|Enter the Nightbird]]''.

* Doctor Fujiyama the ''Famous'' Scientist!

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/enter_the_nightbird.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicle]

[[Category:Generation 1 episodes]]

Talk:Devastator (ROTF)

2010-02-22T19:07:53Z

81.108.237.26: /* Larger Legends class */ new section

Talk:Transformers: Kiss Players (franchise)

2010-02-06T15:51:57Z

81.108.237.26: /* Things that shouldn't exist */ new section

Fortress Maximus (G1)

2010-01-31T13:18:54Z

81.108.237.26: /* Generation 1 */

{{factions|autobot|autobotg2}}
{{disambig3|Fortress Maximus}}
:''Fortress Maximus is an [[Autobot]] [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] [[City-bot]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:FortMax1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|[[Nobuyuki Hiyama|Link]] called. He wants the [[Master Sword]] back.]]
Despite his great power, size, and rank, '''Fortress Maximus''' is a weary and reluctant warrior. Fighting is against his pacifist nature, even for the most noble of causes. Over time, the endless conflict on Cybertron has worn him down, to the point that he's willing to walk away from the war entirely to preserve himself and his ideals.

Fortress Maximus is big. ''How'' big generally depends on the continuity, but often as not he's binary-bonded to a smaller robot named [[Cerebros (G1)|Cerebros]] who forms his head; Cerebros's own head is formed by [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]].

{{note|Fortress Maximus is one of those fun characters whose English comic, English cartoon and Japanese cartoon incarnations were very different. See individual fiction entries below for continuity specific profiles.}}

:''Japanese name:'' '''Cerebros''' (see below)
:''French-Canadian name:'' '''Forteresse Maximus'''
:''Cracked-out English-Malay dub name:'' '''Spaceship Bruce''' (starship mode only)
:''Chinese name (Taiwan):'' '''Ford''' / '''Fort''' (福特 ''Fú Tè'')
:''Chinese name (Taiwan version of RTM dub):'' '''Furmon''' (福蒙 ''Fú Méng'')

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Generation 1====
{{noteukonly}}
[[Image:Ringofhate-evilstain.jpg|right|250px|thumb|He is mad as hell and he's not gonna take it anymore!]]
Fortress Maximus was an architect in his early career, designing and even constructing many works on Cybertron. When the war came, he reluctantly turned his talents to fighting. {{storylink|Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe profile}}

During the long absence of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]], [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], and their respective troops from [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], unit commander Fortress Maximus established a headquarters in the [[Manganese Mountains]] and continued the fight against Scorponok's Decepticon contingent.

One fine day on Cybertron, Fort Max's troops staged an ambush on Scorponok's Decepticons, who had just leveled an Autobot city and were marching their prisoners toward the [[Smelting pool|smelting pools]]. Maximus's troops cut a swath through the Decepticon ranks, quickly driving them into retreat.

{{bigquote|Whether I am a hero or a coward is ''not'' the issue! I am ''weary!'' My joints creak from the corrosion of ''war without end!'' I... cannot break this ring of hate that surrounds us all -- but I can remove myself from it. No matter what you decide... I am leaving.|Fortress Maximus announces his decision to quit the war|"[[Ring of Hate!]]"}}

[[Image:Ringofhate-pangalactic.jpg|left|200px|thumb|"...And that, prospective investors, is why GoogleSaturn will make a million dollars per month."]]
Though his troops were jubilant at their victory, the battle was the last straw for Fortress Maximus. He had become so sick of the war that he decided to leave it. He didn't care if it made him a coward or not, he simply believed that the war would go on regardless of whether or not he was in it. Maximus declared that no matter what the others decided, he was leaving for the planet of [[Nebulos]], a world he had long studied and which seemed to be at peace. His stunned troops agreed, and together constructed a starship dubbed the ''[[Steelhaven (G1)|Steelhaven]]'' to propel them across the void.

Fortress Maximus immediately sent [[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]] as an messenger to the Nebulan natives; however, an accident made it appear that the giant robots from outer space came with hostile intent. Some of the more reactionary elements among the Nebulan leadership conspired to make Fort Max's envoy [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] also appear to have hostile intent, and thus were able to incite their fellow Nebulans to arms.

[[Image:Fortmaxgiveshead.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Dibs on the off-color jokes!]]
Fortress Maximus and his troops thus found themselves under a full attack from the Nebulans. Max ordered his troops to not fight back, despite complaints from the likes of [[Kup (G1)|Kup]], and covered them as they retreated into the woods.

Faced with a newly hostile enemy, Fortress Maximus resolved to wage peace, not war. Gathering ten of his followers, he marched up to the Nebulan capital of [[Koraja]], begged to be heard out, and had his group discard their weapons. When that didn't work, he did the next logical thing and pulled his head off. Four other Autobots also resorted to this grotesque stunt before [[Galen]], head of the Nebulan [[World Watchers]], was convinced they weren't a threat. {{storylink|Ring of Hate!}}

[[Image:Brokenglass-autobotstorage.jpg|left|200px|thumb|My honey my baby, don't put my head upon no shelf.]]
The five Autobots' heads were stored in a warehouse, and Galen occasionally consulted with Fortress Maximus, keeping him up to date on outside events as anti-robot protests rocked the capital city.

Soon after, a horde of the Autobots' Decepticon foes appeared before the city gates. Max advised Galen that turning the Autobots over to Scorponok would not prevent him from attacking, and under the Autobot-Nebulan peace agreement, Galen could not simply restore the five Autobots to their bodies. But together with [[Arcana]], the pair came up with another plan. Five volunteer Nebulans were bio-engineered to combine with special armor, and transform into likenesses of the Autobots heads, connecting with and controlling them through the [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster process]]. Galen himself became Fortress Maximus's new partner. Fortress Maximus led his newly-enhanced troops against Scorponok, and soundly defeated his numerically superior squad. {{storylink|Broken Glass!}}

[[Image:Loveandsteel-runfortmaxrun.jpg|right|250px|thumb|I'm just a-runnin' down the road, trying to loosen my load, got a world of troubles on my mind.]]
Fortress Maximus remained inert while Galen performed his various duties. He came back online to lead the Headmasters to the [[Grax Communications Facility]], where a number of Nebulan leaders were apparently being held hostage by the Decepticons. It turned out to be a trap, however, as the Decepticons had also become Headmasters, with Galen's rival Zarak now bonded to Scorponok himself. Using several Nebulans as a distraction, Scorponok's troops overpowered Fort Max and the others, taking them hostage. {{storylink|Love and Steel!}}

Max remained out of commission until Zarak, briefly overcoming Scorponok's influence on his mind, freed Galen and the other Autobot-allied Nebulans. Fort Max and company smashed their way out of the holding facility, then ran straight into the newly-formed Decepticon Targetmasters. Max briefly led his troops against the Decepticons, but opted to retreat rather than fight it out. To spare Koraja the carnage of a full-scale fight to the finish, he covered their retreat with the time-honored technique of smashing his enemies with Koraja's metal sculpture of the planet Nebulos. {{storylink|Brothers in Armor!!}}

''Scorponok and Zarak challenged Fortress Maximus and Galen (here called "Kord") to a duel to settle their differences. Kord/Maximus won by cheating, but it didn't matter because the duel was a ruse to distract the Autobots while [[Slugslinger (G1)|Slugslinger]] stole Autobot fuel converters. The Deceptions had bugged the Autobot base and learned of Earth. They needed the converters to travel there. The Decepticons left for Earth and the Autobots followed.'' {{storylink|The Final Conflict}}

{{note|The events in this UK story differ in significant ways to the [[Headmasters (comic)|Headmasters]] mini-series.}}

Returning to the Autobot camp, Max/Galen decided to lead the troops away from Nebulos, knowing that Scorponok would follow. {{storylink|Brothers in Armor!!}}

[[Image:Trialbyfire-fortmax-disassemble.jpg|left|200px|thumb|He does seem to have trouble staying in one piece, doesn't he?]]
During their voyage to Earth, Fortress Maximus underwent a radical reconstruction to alter his size considerably, increasing himself from a slightly tall dude to a ''very'' tall dude, about twice the height of the average Transformer. Of course, with his larger scale, Fortress Maximus needed a new head (Galen still being stuck at roughly human size). For this reason, another Autobot, [[Cerebros (G1)|Cerebros]], was added to serve as a secondary stage between Galen and Maximus. As the head of Cerebros, Galen could transform Cerebros into the larger head of Fortress Maximus.

Arriving on Earth, Fortress Maximus led his fellow Headmasters to [[Mount St. Hilary]], source of the Autobot distress call that had drawn them to Earth. After recovering the damaged [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]], the group encountered [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]], who had come in search of his missing younger brother [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]]. Spike asked for the Autobots' help in finding his brother, but Fortress Maximus was more interested in their primary mission of locating the Autobots of Earth, and he led his troops off to follow the fuel trail of the missing [[Ark (G1)|Ark]].

[[Image:Fortressmaximus-trialbyfire-rollout.jpg|right|250px|thumb|The usage of "roll out" gets stranger and stranger.]]
Scorponok's crew soon followed Maximus to Earth, however, and to the same cave. When Spike replayed Goldbug's distress message, Fortress Maximus and company returned to the cave, apologizing to Spike for his failure to consider the danger he had brought to Earth's natives by leading the Decepticons there.

In the ensuing battle, Spike retreated further into the volcano's caves to seek shelter. Scorponok followed, seeking a hostage, and Fortress Maximus pursued him. As the caves narrowed down, Maximus was forced to send Cerebros onward, and eventually Galen himself had to leave Cerebros to cross a fragile rock bridge. Scorponok used the distraction to blast rocks down on Galen, killing him. As the Decepticon leader left, laughing, Galen passed on his control helmet to Spike, allowing the Earthling to assume control of Fortress Maximus and drive the Decepticons off. {{storylink|Trial by Fire!}}

Spike soon underwent the full binary bonding process and became the leader of the ''Steelhaven'''s crew of Autobots. With his new partner, Fortress Maximus led the Autobot [[Targetmaster]]s in an effort to locate Buster, first visiting his father at a shady motel, then heading to a spot in the tropics where the Decepticons had set up an island base.

[[Image:Clubconpalmtreespear.jpg|left|300px|thumb|The purpose of Club Con is to flip out and spear people.]]
With Kup worried about the inexperience of Fortress Maximus's new partner, Max held back while the Targetmasters landed on the island. They were driven back by automated defenses, however, and the island revealed itself to be a rocket ship, launching into the atmosphere with Buster still aboard. Maximus resolved to take matters into his own hands, and took off after the rocket (who knew he could fly?) Unfortunately, once in space, the ship's defenses made shishkabob out of him, forcing Spike to resort to using Cerebros instead. Cerebros was likewise trashed by an attack from [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], though Spike was able to use Maximus's guns to send Shockwave falling to his apparent demise. Maximus and his partners were subsequently rescued by the Targetmasters, and for his gusto, Spike was welcomed as the group's new leader. {{storylink|The Desert Island of Space!}}

As Fortress Maximus underwent repairs, his crew caught wind of a [[floppy disk]] in possession of one [[Ethan Zachary]], which contained the memories and personality of Optimus Prime. With the aid of a computer-generated version of Prime, Fortress Maximus gathered a lot of data from Scorponok's [[Pretender]] experiments and gave that ability to some of his own crew. {{storylink|Pretender to the Throne!}}

With the disk in their possession, Fortress Maximus oversaw efforts to build a new body for Optimus Prime's mind. However, the ''Steelhaven'''s resources were depleted after creating the Pretenders, causing the effort to fail explosively. Thus when [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] located the Ark nearby, Fortress Maximus was eager to contact its Autobots and forge an alliance.

[[Image:Fortressmaximus-totalled-worthlesshuman.jpg|right|200px|thumb|It begs the question of why Grimlock didn't just step on him.]]
Unfortunately, [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] developed an immediate dislike for Fortress Maximus, partially because he was a possible threat to Grimlock's leadership, partially because he was part human, and partially because he had a fugitive (Goldbug). He challenged "Fruitloop Multipuck" to a duel for leadership on the [[Moon (moon)|moon]]. Faced with the prospect of a divided Autobot force, Fortress Maximus agreed, though his unhealed injuries made victory an unlikely prospect. Luckily for Max, the imprisoned [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] agreed to fill in for him.

[[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] led a Decepticon assault on the Autobots during the duel. While fighting off the attackers, Fortress Maximus ordered Goldbug, [[Joyride (Autobot)|Joyride]], [[Getaway]], and [[Slapdash]] to take the disk to Nebulos to restore Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Totaled!}}

With Optimus Prime restored, Maximus accepted a subordinate role in the Autobot ranks. ''He was among those Autobots present as Optimus Prime briefed the troops about the threat of the time-displaced [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]. When Optimus and five other Autobots spontaneously and explosively vanished into thin air, only to be replaced by six Transformers claiming to be Autobots from the future, Fortress Maximus immediately assumed command, freaked out, and ordered his troops to destroy the "imposters". (Apparently, his memory was a little rusty, since said "imposters" included his own present-day troops Kup and Blurr.) Maximus sparred with Rodimus Prime until the words of Goldbug, as well as a Matrix-linked Optimus Prime, convinced him that Rodimus was telling the truth when he claimed to be a future Autobot leader. Maximus participated in the subsequent battle against Megatron and Galvatron; he attacked Megatron alongside Grimlock and Swoop, but was quickly put down by the battle-crazed Decepticon.'' {{storylink|Time Wars}}

[[Image:Fortmaxboat.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Contrary to what's advertised here, the toy will sink if you put it in the bathtub.]]
Fortress Maximus provided a floating search platform for Optimus and Blaster as they searched the ocean for the Decepticons' [[Club Con]] base. Spike expressed frustration that they still had not located his brother, though Optimus vowed to keep searching. {{storylink|Cold War!}}

Fort Max was among the many Autobots who responded to an Autobot emergency signal in the Arctic... which turned out to be sent by none other than Buster Witwicky, who was dying of hypothermia. Maximus took his human sibling into a special thermal compartment, restoring his body temperature to normal.

When the Decepticons attacked soon after, Maximus came under attack from the [[Horrorcon]]s, followed by [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]], who clung to him tenaciously and eventually caused Buster to spill out of the warming compartment. This turned out to be a lucky break, as Buster reminded Ratbat that the battle was nothing but a ruse engineered by Starscream. Ratbat and Maximus together called for all the combatants to lay down their arms.

[[Image:Fortressmaximus-maninthemachine1.jpg|right|125px|thumb|Cast in the name of God, Ye not guilty]]
After Starscream seized the power of the [[Underbase]], Fortress Maximus and Soundwave led a team to [[Buenos Aires]] to try and stop him. As their troops fell en masse, Maximus attacked Starscream, only to receive a debilitating energy blast in return. His organic component, however, allowed him to survive the first attack. Omega Supreme intervened just then, preventing Maximus from being crushed by a monument hurled by Starscream. Starscream disposed of Omega, and was on the verge of finishing off Maximus, when he was lured away by a radio signal from Buster aboard the Ark. {{storylink|Dark Star (issue)|Dark Star}}

[[Image:Fortressmaximus-maninthemachine2.jpg|left|200px|thumb|So why couldn't he have just kept Cerebros attached to him and gone on with his life?]]
With Buster rescued and the threat of Starscream removed, Spike and Fortress Maximus's tumultuous relationship came to light. Feeling his work with the Autobots was done, Spike tried to go his own way and resume his life, going so far as to pitch his control helmet into a junkyard, but his binary bond could not be left behind so easily. Strange nightmares plagued him, visions of falling into a void. Nor would the Decepticons relent; while on a skiing expedition, he found himself hunted by Carnivac and Snarler. Turning inwards, he found his link to Fortress Maximus remained even without the control helmet and that he could summon the giant warrior from afar. Max left his storage space aboard the Ark and descended to Earth. Despite Carnivac's dirty fighting, Fort Max easily disposed of the two attackers and their Pretender shells, once he and Spike physically recombined. With the battle over, Spike sent Fortress Maximus back to the Ark. {{storylink|The Man in the Machine!}}

Despite Spike's reconciliation, Fortress Maximus was subsequently out of action for many months or even years. He was still stored aboard the Ark just before the great battle with Unicron, when Grimlock and his Dinobots had returned from [[Hydrus Four]]. They had come looking for the rest of the Autobots, but the Ark's scanners were only picking up one Transformer. Weirder still, this Transformer was in ''two'' parts! {{storylink|The Void! (US)|The Void!}}

{{note|It's kind of odd that Primus didn't warp Fortress Maximus with every other Transformer on Earth, but it's implied that it's because half of him was on the Ark. Odder still is that the Dinobots didn't notice or mention that half of this Transformer was on the Ark with them.}}

[[Image:Fortressmaximus-thelastautobot1.jpg|right|125px|thumb|]]
After Unicron was defeated, the Ark plummeted to Earth and crashed in the northern tundra of Canada. When [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] emerged from the wreckage to wreak havoc, it fell to Fortress Maximus to stop him. He called to Spike, who came. He and Spike went through some mental wrangling before Max convinced Spike to reunite with him once more. Anxious and desperate after so long out of the war, Maximus immediately suppressed his hesitating partner and took full control upon regaining his head. This proved not to be such a wise idea. Fortress Maximus alone wasn't quite ready to deal with the totally insane Galvatron, who started smashing and biting(!) him to pieces. Realizing the power of their combined strength, Spike and Fortress Maximus managed to unite in thought and deed, and defeated the crazed Decepticon. Fortress Maximus stood alone at the battle's end, the last Autobot, guardian of Earth. {{storylink|The Last Autobot?}}

{{-}}

====Generation 2====
[[Image:Fortressmaximus-allornothing2.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Let me demonstrate just how much you don't have a [[To sell toys|toy on the shelves]] anymore.]]
It was ultimately [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] who would prove to be the undoing of this giant warrior. The reborn and reconditioned Decepticon leader stole the Ark from its crash site in Canada, and used it as his personal flagship. {{storylink|Realignments}} While establishing control over the ship, Megatron found and disabled Fort Max's dormant form. Spike sneaked aboard the ship and rejoined with Maximus, but the damage inflicted by Megatron meant they had virtually no chance to win.

Brutally beaten in combat with an upgraded and super-charged Megatron, the pair dragged themselves to the heart of the ship and threw themselves into the anti-matter containment unit at the core of its power supply, killing them both and causing the Ark to explode. {{storylink|All or Nothing!}}

Though it kept the Ark out of Megatron's hands, and nearly derailed his plans entirely, their effort was ultimately not successful: Megatron escaped aboard a shuttle and lived to fight again, and even had time to take the convalescent Starscream with him. {{storylink|New Dawn}} {{storylink|Devices and Desires! (Marvel)|Devices and Desires!}}
{{-}}

===American cartoon continuity===
:''Voice Actor:'' [[Stephen Keener]]

[[Image:Fortressmaximusg1rebirth.jpg|left|175px|thumb|Not surprisingly, Fortress Maximus is a bottom.]]
When the [[Hive (G1)|Hive]] of [[Nebulos]] had developed the massive [[Transformer]] [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] in 2007, Spike found that his only available resources to combat the threat were the Hive's older technology and the pacifist Autobot Cerebros. Spike used the technology to create an Autobot giant, at the same time re-engineering Cerebros to become the new robot's head, and to take Spike himself as his own head (Cerebros seemed to get little say in these matters). The giant, named Fortress Maximus, blasted off for Cybertron, where he expectedly fought (and won) against Scorponok. After Maximus/Cerebros and Spike saved Cybertron and [[Earth]] from the Hive and the Decepticons, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] sent them back to Nebulos as its guardians.

It is unclear if Fortress Maximus had any sentience of his own; he did speak once in his own voice. But for the most part, even Cerebros's will seemed to be pushed aside so Spike could run the whole thing himself. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 3}}

{{-}}

===Japanese animated continuity===
{{note|'''Cerebros''' is the name of the small head unit. When combined with the intermediate [[transtector]], he is named '''Fortress'''. When Fortress combines as the head of the large transtector, he is named '''Fortress Maximus'''.}}

====Kiss Players====
A [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]] from another time inspired the creation of a new Fortress Maximus when he crashed onto [[Master (planet)|Master]]. {{storylink|Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players}}

====''The Headmasters''====
:''Voice Actor:'' [[Ikuya Sawaki]]

{{charstubfiction}}

[[Image:G1FortressMaximus HMstockfootage.jpg|right|150px|thumb|"...But it's the pelvic thruuuuuust / that really drives you in-sa-a-a-ane / Let's do the Time Warp again!"]]
Headmasters were human-sized Transformers who had long ago left [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and established themselves on the planet [[Master (planet)|Master]] in an attempt to escape the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]]. To better survive the harsh climate, they built larger bodies for themselves. They could then transform to become the heads of these more powerful forms. The Headmasters themselves eventually split off factions, some claiming loyalty to the Decepticons, while others held loyalty to the Autobots, though neither group came into contact with Cybertron (or Earth) until 2011.

[[Image:FortMax THM.jpg|left|150px|thumb|The Ginsu Head: Slices and dices, makes thousands of julienned Decepticons.]]
The leader of the Autobot faction on Master was named Fortress. Fortress took the Headmaster process one step further. Not only did he combine with a larger robot, but that robot could in turn enlarge and become the head of another, ''much'' larger robot, the robot form of the Battleship ''Maximus'', thus forming the mighty Fortress Maximus.

Upon meeting again with the Autobots, Fortress quickly became a lead figure not only to his own troops, but to most of the other Autobots in the ongoing war, though he loyally answered to [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]. Primarily, he led the other Headmasters into battle, often working away from the other Autobots and handling overly dangerous situations.

When Cybertron was destroyed, Rodimus Prime vowed to search the universe for a new home for the older, non-headmaster Autobots. He passed [[Supreme Commander|supreme command]] of the Autobots—but, interestingly, not the [[Matrix of Leadership]], which he kept on his travels—to Fortress Maximus. {{storylink|Cybertron Is in Grave Danger, Part 2}}

Fortress wasn't entirely confident that he was the best choice for leader, not because of any discomfort or indecision performing the duties, but due to a certain [[Optimus Prime (G1)|common]] [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|tendency]] to feel like he wasn't worthy. Nevertheless, he led the Autobots against Galvatron and Scorponok decisively and was popular as a leader. While some of the other Headmasters had trouble getting along with humans, Fortress proved himself reasonably friendly, or at least good at making silly faces to amuse [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|children]] (and talking them into [[Approach of the Demon Meteorite|dangerous missions]]). Fortunately, [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] was around to help smooth relations on both sides, as well as to help Fortress personally to coordinate and present plans.

In Scorponok's final campaign against the Autobots, Fortress Maximus battled his arch enemy, and thanks in part to Sixshot's intervention, the work of the Autobots as a team, and all the present Autobot troops—along with [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel Witwicky]]—lending him their energy and the power of friendship via a [[Head Formation]], he was able to overcome and destroy Scorponok's transtector, as well as his plan to destroy the Earth, sending the Decepticons into retreat once and for all.

Fortress continued to lead the Autobots as they left Earth for good to travel around the galaxy, trying to repair all the damages dealt in the war and to remain vigilant should the Decepticons return. {{storylink|The Final Showdown on Earth (Part 2)}}

====''Super-God Masterforce''====
Fortress was seen briefly and indistinctly as he introduced his [[Relatives|brother]], [[Grand Maximus]].

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
A normal-sized Fortress Maximus was a co-leader of the Autobot forces on Cybertron, along with Ultra Magnus. As Cybertron's resources ran low, they struggled to hold the Autobot army together. {{storylink|Destined for Nothing}} The war continued despite their best efforts, though, and after a fruitless and disastrous skirmish with the Micromaster [[Skystalker (G1)|Skystalker]] and the Decepticons, Fortress Maximus gave up on the war. He left the Autobot army in order to seek a new path. {{Storylink|Victims of the Revolution}}

A gargantuan Fortress Maximus was also seen in a [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]]-induced vision of future [[Nebulos]] by Optimus Prime and Megatron. {{Storylink|The War Within issue 4}}

===Devil's Due ''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers'' comics===
[[Image:Ironclaw artofwar.jpg|right|150px|thumb|]]
While imbued with the wisdom of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], [[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]] had a vision of Fortress Maximus and [[Sgt. Savage]] fighting against [[Iron Klaw]] and [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypricon]].

{{-}}

===IDW comics continuity===
[[Image:SpotlightArcee FortressMaximus.jpg|left|300px|thumb|You wanna argue with him?]]
A somewhat less pacifistic Fortress Maximus (Seriously, he repeatedly threatened to kill his prisoners or otherwise "strip them down to their spark cores.") was the warden in charge of [[Garrus-9]], an Autobot-run penitentiary where both Autobot and Decepticon prisoners were kept in containment. As the ultimate imprisonment, each inmate was reduced down to their [[spark]] and [[laser core]] alone, held inanimate in a storage center known as "The Rig" until such a time as Fort Max deemed to rebuild and release them, if ever.

Fortress Maximus was one of many Autobots across the galaxy who watched a news report heralding the miraculous return of [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Blaster}}

After [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] encountered the [[Monstructor (G1)|Monstructor]] [[Combiner|combiners]] on [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]]'s asteroid bunker, he sent them to Garrus-9 with [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and the [[Technobot (G1)|Technobots]], hoping the science team could help the six recover from [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]]'s experimentations. Fortress Maximus was dubious of the possible results, but allowed Jetfire and his team to run their tests at Garrus-9. Things changed for the worse, however, once word of the gestalt technology got out, and agents of the [[Decepticon Secret Service]] came to claim the remarkable new tech for themselves. Faced with an incredible amount of orbital bombardment and ground warfare, Fortress Maximus and his defensive crew were at serious risk of being overrun.

In order to maintain control of his base, Max reactivated the only Autobot inmate classified as Threat Level-9: [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]]. Knowing Arcee had strong feelings about Jhiaxus and his work from personal experience, Fortress Maximus felt confident she would do anything to prevent the Decepticons from laying claim to the "[[Pretender Monster|Monstructor Six]]". In case he was wrong, though, Fort Max made it clear to Arcee she was lowjacked with synchronized G-forces that would crush her spark if she stepped out of line. Despite Arcee's help, the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]] still managed to make off with the gestalt robots. Despite his better judgment, Fortress Maximus allowed Jetfire to convince him that Arcee was the best available to track and intercept the Secret Service ships and retrieve or destroy the gestalt robots. {{storylink|Spotlight: Arcee}}

When Optimus Prime and [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] met with Fortress Maximus and Jetfire on Garrus-9 to discuss the prisoners' breakout, also mentioned was that a surviving Decepticon had been tortured. Maximus and Jetfire exchanged guilty glances. Prime left Maximus in charge and returned with Prowl and Jetfire to the ''[[Ark-32]]''. {{storylink|Spotlight: Cyclonus}}

With the death of [[Nightbeat (G1)|Nightbeat]], [[Nova Prime|Nemesis Prime]] was forced to enter the living universe and confront Optimus Prime at Garrus-9. Fortress Maximus and the other Autobots were hunkered down in The Last Resort, the most secure, highest-security section of the penitentiary, and he believed that not even a [[Cortynivian Shadow Worm]] could get in. He was wrong, as Nemesis effortlessly forced his way in, killed [[Manta Ray (G2)|Manta Ray]] and [[Drench (Autobot)|Drench]] and shrugged off all Autobot weapons fire. Maximus called in reinforcements until Optimus convinced him that conventional tactics would not work with the undead Prime. {{storylink|Spotlight: Doubledealer}}

{{spoiler|Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 1|26 February 2010}}

During Megatron's massive push against the Autobots, an annoyed Maximus led the defence of the prison against the [[Predator]] forces. However, when the sociopathic [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]] took control of the Decepticon forces, the prison was overrun and Fortress Maximus beaten down by the monster. And then, to keep the liberated prisoners on his side, Overlord tossed them their former warden to have some fun with... {{storylink|Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 1}}

{{note|Though thickly built, Fortress Maximus is a normal-sized Transformer in [[IDW Generation 1 continuity|IDW continuity]], about the same size as Jetfire.}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
[[Image:G1FortressMaximus toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|If I hear somebody ask "how's the weather up there" one more time, Primus help them...]]
*'''Fortress Maximus''' (Headmaster Base, 1987)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-114'''
**''Accessories:'' Spike Headmaster unit, Cerebros large Headmaster unit, [[Cog (G1)|Gasket]], [[Cog (G1)|Grommet]], Photon Rifle, Dual Laser Cannon, Cerebros's Mini Laser Rifle, [[Cog (G1)|Cog]]'s Laser rifle, Radar Scope, Master Sword (Japanese release only), Cerebros's sword (Japanese release only)

: Fortress Maximus is, by far, the largest Transformers toy ever produced. In robot mode it stands 22" (or 56 cm) tall, nearly 8" (20 cm) taller than its in-fiction rival Scorponok. The original retail price was over $100USD. Taking into account ongoing trends in toy pricing and retail shelf space jockeying, it is highly doubtful any other Transformers even close to this size will ever be made again.

: The toy has multiple alt mode configurations, transforming into a relatively compact "city" mode, and also a secondary mode described in the US instruction as a "battle station." That mode was rebranded as a starship for the Japanese instructions, and is the "default" mode for Fortress Maximus in the ''Headmasters'' animated series. Additionally, the 1987 Hasbro toy catalog features a mis-transformed Fortress Maximus in a mode referred to as an "impenetrable fortress," essentially consisting of his city mode with the legs splayed outwards.

: In all modes, Maximus has a wide array of pop-out (non-firing) guns and gimmicks. Its left leg hides a small prison cell, plus has a swing-out cannon/helipad. Its right leg has a small storage compartment. Its torso has a gear-activated spinner for the detachable radar array accessory, a "control socket" for [[Cerebros (G1)|Cerebros]]' "communications tower" mode, and a working elevator that can lift small toys up to its central ramp to be launched in its altmodes. (The crank for this elevator ends up in a very unfortunate position in robot mode.) Each arm had a long ramp on the back with sliding launchers for small vehicles.

: Its robot-mode head is formed by Cerebros, who does not actually need Spike to attach to the upper body. It came with both Headmaster units, plus the Gasket and Grommet mini-vehicles.

: The Japanese release of Fortress Maximus came with a pair of [[Master Sword]]s; one for Fortress, a ''large'' one for Maximus. It is currently unknown if the swords were originally planned for the [[Hasbro]] version but dropped for price or [[For safety reasons|safety concerns]], or if they were a [[Takara]]-initiated addition to their release of the toy.

: This mold was used to make ''[[Super-God Masterforce (toyline)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' [[Grand Maximus]], ''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Car Robots]]'' [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Brave Maximus]], and ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'' "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Cybertron Base]]".

{{-}}

===Transform Jr===
[[Image:G1 FortressMaximus Jnr toy.jpg|right|150px|thumb|We represent the Lollybot guild]]
* '''Fortress Maximus''' (1987)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-114'''
**''Accessories:'' Fortress Headmaster unit, Photon Rifle

: ''[[Transform Jr]]'' Fortress Maximus is a smaller rendering of the character, scaled down to regular Transformer size, and with only one head. Fortress Maximus could only transform from his starship mode to his robot mode, as his legs lack the joints to fold into city mode. Much of his detail and accessories have been simplified into stickers, such as his shin cannons. He comes with only one weapon, his large blue photon rifle.

:This toy was also available in a leaders three-pack with [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Convoy]]

{{-}}

==Merchandise==
* Fortress Maximus was a larger "build-a-bot" from the third "Act" of the [[Super Collection Figure]] PVC line; one piece of it was packaged in each of the six clear pieces in a case of twelve. Like the regular PVCs, it was available both in full-color or colorless-clear versions.

* The Fortress Maximus PVC was revisited for [[Hasbro]]'s [[Heroes of Cybertron]] line, again as a pack-in, one part in each of the six releases of wave four. This version was cast entirely in clear-blue plastic then painted over, save a small spot on his head to give him a "light-pipe" glowing-eyes effect.
** Torso: [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]]
** Head & sword: [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]
** Left arm: [[Powermaster]] [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Gigatron]]
** Right arm: [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]]
** Left leg: [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Autobot Jazz]]
** Right leg: Autobot Espionage Team ([[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Bumblebee]] & Spike)

==Trivia==
* "Fortress Maximus" was an early name for the characters that eventually became [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]]. The [[Marvel Comics|Marvel]] [[Transformers: The Movie (Marvel Comics)|comic adaptation]] of the [[The Transformers: The Movie|1986 Movie]] even refers to [[Autobot City]] as "Fortress Maximus" in a caption.

* Fortress Maximus was the first toy to be released with a bona-fide Earthling figure. All of the other Headmasters' companions were from Nebulos. (Although Maximus's on-package [[bio]] refers to "the Nebulan leader, Spike", the general consensus is that it was supposed to be the popular figure from TV and other media, who is almost certainly an Earthling.)

* Both Scorponok and Fortress Maximus suffer from the writers struggling to reconcile the characters' high rank with their size. In their comic appearances, they are portrayed as commanders in some capacity but are shrunk down to interact with other Transformers, and their city modes pretty much don't exist. Conversely, the cartoons have opted to portray them as giant city Transformers, though they seem to be merely extensions of the smaller beings that bond with them, with no real life or will of their own.

[[Image:FortMaxReds.jpg|thumb|250px]]

*Fortress Maximus appeared in an unusual dark grey and red color scheme on the cover of Marvel's [[Ring of Hate!|''The Headmasters'' #1]]. This color scheme was repeated in the corner box for [[Love and Steel!|''The Headmasters'' issue #3]] and on the cover of [[The Man in the Machine!|''The Transformers'' issue #51]]. Its origin is unknown.

* The Battleship ''Maximus'' bears a slight resemblance to the [[Wikipedia:White Base|White Base]], a battleship from the [[Wikipedia:Gundam|''Gundam'' franchise]].

* When Spike transforms to join Fortress Maximus for the last time in the ''Generation 2'' book, Cerebros is not shown, and Spike transforms directly into Fortress Maximus's head. Maximus is shown to be no larger than Megatron. In real-life terms, it's an obvious series of art errors; in the context of the story, one might wonder if Maximus was reduced back to his original, smaller, size. It seems improbable, considering that Spike had been retired for years by that point.

* Fortress Maximus has the distinction of having one of the most well known Transformers [[Knockoff|bootleg]] versions in existence. While Cerebros has been omitted, the Spike figure is the same, and the body has been scaled down to match, effectively making the body compatible with any other Headmaster head. It also fetches absurd prices for a bootleg.

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/1987/Autobot/FortressMaximus/fortressmaximus.htm Fortress Maximus at TFU.info]
* [http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Fortress_Maximus Fortress Maximus's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Autobot bases]]
[[Category:City Transformers]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 locations]]
[[Category:Headmasters]]
[[Category:Headmasters characters]]
[[Category:Masterforce characters]]
[[Category:Multi-component Transformers]]
[[Category:Starships]]
[[Category:Transformers with three modes]]

Unknown Constructicon dump truck

2010-01-29T23:12:21Z

81.108.237.26: /* Notes */

{{Faction|decepticon}}

{{noname-nickname}}

:''The unknown Constructicon dump truck is a [[Decepticon]] from [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]] franchise in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]]''

[[Image:ROTF-RampageandUnknowndumptruck.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Well, I'm not the kind to kiss and tell, But I've been seen with [[Megan Fox|Megan]]. I'm never seen with anything less than a nine, so fine.]]

He might fall from a tall building, 
He might roll a [[Jolt (ROTF)|brand new car]]. 
'Cause he's the '''unknown [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]]''' that made [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] such a star.

== Fiction ==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film ===
During the climactic battle in [[Egypt]] between the Autobots, their human allies and [[The Fallen]]'s Decepticons, the unknown Constructicon appeared in a quarry with the other Constructicons, and combined with [[Rampage (ROTF)|Rampage]] to form [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]]'s leg. When Devastator was destroyed by the experimental [[railgun]] fired from the [[United States Navy#U.S.S. Kidd (DDG-100)|U.S.S. ''Kidd'']], the unknown Constructicon was presumably killed. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

==Merchandise==
===Robot Heroes===
*'''Desert Devastation''' (Multi-pack, 2009)

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Thighy]]

:The yellow dump truck and Rampage appear as an orange leg on the body of "Desert Devastation" Devastator, a super-sized ''[[Robot Heroes]]'' figure. He is only available in a multi-pack with [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] in their vehicle modes and [[William Lennox]].

{{Comingsoontoy}}

{{-}}

==Notes==
*Though the unknown Constructicon shares a similar [[alternate mode]] with another one of Devastator's components, [[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]], he's a different, longer model of dump truck.
*When [[Hasbro_Q%26A/December_2009:_Answers|asked]], Hasbro neither had a name for this poor sod nor recognised his existence as Devastator's leg (saying there were only seven Constructicons in Devastator).

[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen Constructicons]]

Talk:Soundwave (Animated)

2010-01-25T18:39:35Z

81.108.237.26:

Talk:Human Error, Part II

2010-01-25T18:33:26Z

81.108.237.26: /* (Yet Another) Possible references? */

==Possible References==

That blue truck Bulkhead rammed (and then the driver yelled at him); did it look like the Micromaster [[Battlefield Headquarters]] to anyone else?
Also, is the trivia note accurate when it says this is the first time Sari was called techno-organic? I thought in "Transwarped," Ratchet called her a techno-organism.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 13:33, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== (Another) Possible Reference? ==

Is it just me, or is Scrapper's outfit, along with the whole "stranded on an island" thing a reference to Robinson Crusoe? [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:40, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== Laserbeak trivia ==

I'm not sure I understand that note - looking at [[:Image:PrimeReadyToRock.jpg|this image]] his guitar-mode animation model looks fine... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:45, 26 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, technically, his guitar mode IS mistranformed right there... For the toy, the guitar's headstock is supposed to be a "V"... The third little bump in the middle is supposed to be laserbeak's tailfeathers in bird mode. True, it's not anything major... But it's still a noticeable difference. Compare that image to [[:Image:Soundwaveanimateddeluxe.jpg|this one]].--[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 09:39, 26 April 2009 (EDT)
::Should we just add it to his page then? ([[User:Tribor|Tribor]] 12:36, 26 April 2009 (EDT))
::Aha, thanks! That makes more sense to me now. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:05, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

== (Yet Another) Possible references?==

Soundwave says "Resistance is futile" twice in the episode. Wasn't that the borg's catchphrase in Star Trek?
Also, isn't the whole virtual real world that you get plugged into kinda like The Matrix? {{unsigned|98.117.222.69}}
: Unless the Autobots were being used as living batteries to power the Decepticons' cities, I think we can rule out a specific The Matrix reference. There are buttloads of virtual-real-worlds-you-get-plugged-into. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:18, 26 April 2009 (EDT)
::Resistance is futile ''is'' the Borg catchphrase though, maybe it could go in the trivia section or something. In any case it cemented his place as my favourite TFA transformer.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:33, 25 January 2010 (EST)

== FLCL reference ==

I see my FLCL reference was taken down (unless my eyes deceived me). In its defense, the shot seemed like quite a deliberate reference, not like the supposed Gurren Lagann bits from the first and second season. And seeing as how Wyatt has mentioned FLCL as an inspiration and other shows like Teen Titans have purposefully referenced it, I don't think it's a stretch. Plus, the El-Kabong-like sound effect also served to undermine the gigantic "BBVVVVVV" noise the guitars made in FLCL. That's how I saw it, anyway. {{unsigned|RookJones}}
:Weaponized guitar-fighting is a pretty old trope. Silverhawks did it 20 years ago. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:17, 26 April 2009 (EDT)
::Turning guitars into birds, yes. Using guitars like sledgehammers, no. Also, Wyatt hasn't cited ''Silverhawks'' as an inspiration. The reference definitely has a place here. --[[Special:Contributions/Buttbutt|Buttbutt]] 03:02, 28 April 2009 (EDT)

==What?==
Are we REALLY claiming that writer [[Tom Pugsley]], who might otherwise not know Transformers from a hole in the ground, intentionally wrote in a reference to an ''animation error'' from the original cartoon? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:13, 17 July 2009 (EDT)
:THat makes no sense, lets take it down, unless he confirms it.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 09:22, 17 July 2009 (EDT)

== Another quote ==

Shouldn't we add the "Your axe is useless, Autobot." "But ''yours'' isn't!" bit? [[User:ZeldaTheSwordsman|ZeldaTheSwordsman]] 12:01, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Aquarius (SG)

2010-01-23T22:16:11Z

81.108.237.26: /* Chrome */ new section

...oh, wow. This is the best Quintesson ''ever''.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:53, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

I cant' be sure, but I seem to recall in discussions with Forest that "Joy"'s face is based on Buddha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:21, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, based on his appearance. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:23, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Umm.....I thought that Reunification: Part 3 info wasn't allowed yet. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:34, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
: It's been out longer than a month, dude. That's beyond the statute of limitations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:07, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

This is awesome. I want one! --[[User:Autobus Prime|Autobus Prime]] 16:45, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

== Chrome ==

This page is slightly broken in Google Chrome, the main pic is covering up onr of the faces below.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 17:16, 23 January 2010 (EST)

User talk:Deceptitran

2010-01-22T22:02:49Z

81.108.237.26: /* Blanking */

This is currently editing as a normal user account, not a bot account. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:35, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

:I noticed, but Scout isn't online to fix it. -Derik

== WTF? ==

[http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Talk:Shaoshao_Li&action=history Why did this bot pull an Assaulthead on me?] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:03, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
:...I do not know. But I confess-- I totally laughed.
:(At a guess I wasn't paying attention when I added items from the move log.) -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 22:16, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

== Blanking ==

...I'm going to assume that the recent blankings were because of a code error and not signs that Deceptitran has both gained sentience and become a vandal. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 01:13, 5 January 2010 (EST)
:If anyone ever ends up managing to create a sentient wikibot, it will probably be Derik. (And probably by accident.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:27, 5 January 2010 (EST)
::Well Deceptitran did do something very vandalish (see above). :) [[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 17:02, 22 January 2010 (EST)

User talk:Deceptitran

2010-01-22T22:02:08Z

81.108.237.26: /* Blanking */

This is currently editing as a normal user account, not a bot account. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:35, 19 March 2009 (EDT)

:I noticed, but Scout isn't online to fix it. -Derik

== WTF? ==

[http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Talk:Shaoshao_Li&action=history Why did this bot pull an Assaulthead on me?] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:03, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
:...I do not know. But I confess-- I totally laughed.
:(At a guess I wasn't paying attention when I added items from the move log.) -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 22:16, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

== Blanking ==

...I'm going to assume that the recent blankings were because of a code error and not signs that Deceptitran has both gained sentience and become a vandal. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 01:13, 5 January 2010 (EST)
:If anyone ever ends up managing to create a sentient wikibot, it will probably be Derik. (And probably by accident.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:27, 5 January 2010 (EST)
::Well he Deceptitran did do something very vandalish (see above). :) [[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 17:02, 22 January 2010 (EST)

Talk:Devastator (ROTF)

2010-01-22T19:51:51Z

81.108.237.26: /* Page protection */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-12-24T08:48:55Z

81.108.237.26: /* 10,000 pages and numbering */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Boxes gone from disambig templates? ==
I noticed the disambiguation templates don't seem to have those gray boxes behind them anymore. Is this intentional? Because it's confusing. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:16, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:Derik shifted the CSS styling into the stylesheet. Your browser probably had the old stylesheet cached, but a shift-reload should fix it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:20, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it did actually. Thanks! -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 08:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

And they (well, the ones Derik hit anyway) sprouted a thick grey left border in the transition because...? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:34, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!
:Main advantage of switching the disambig boxes to CSS: When you have multiple in a row, they stack prettier without a double-outline between them. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:47, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::''I forget the reason. Rest assured that it did make sense though!''
::If that's not a Derikism, it deserves to be. (And is the main reason why I'm scared of changing to external CSS rather than inline CSS - you having the keys to the styles virtually unfettered, since those admins who could either override or yank the emopanda CSS mostly either don't know how or are absent much of the time)
::So now we have disambig templates that are unique amongst messageboxen in a particularly... nondescript way. Different enough to be irritating, not different enough to serve any real purpose. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:09, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::Eh? Oh, I thought I changed it back. (I remembered why they had a border on the left... I was testing something and decided it didn't work, I didn't realize it was still on.)
:::In theory Scout was going to make some changes last week to move us out of the existing CSS situation with much less living in my dev file... but she seems to have forgotten... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:24, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::What was she planning to do? I can have a crack at it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::Move a bunch of stuff to [[MediaWiki:common.css]], I expect.
:::::(Note the difference between Common.css [all skins, including the ones no-one uses like Simple and MySkin], Monacobook.css [Monacobook only] and Monobook.css [Monobook only]. Scout [[User_talk:Suki_Brits#.22Fixed.22_Monobook|forgot about Monobook]] the last time common.css was edited. Incidentally, where did she ultimately put those changes? They ain't in the empty Monacobook.css.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:44, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::I have a suspicion that the plan may be to create a new user class with rights to edit css files here (in which case I don't have the necessary access rights to do so)... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:59, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That was the one. :) Either she forgot, or she tried and it didn't work. I'll bug her when I remember. (It's not like it's pressing... it's been needing doing for some time so it can wait a bit longer.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::And to answer the css question, the changes are in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css this file] which isn't editable through the Mediawiki interface. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:03, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Scout, I have 3 requests."
:::::::"No, no, yes if I don't have to do any work."
:::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Did that ever get done in the end? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== WTF? ==
Why does [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]] even exist? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:35, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

== Obscure BW comic, anyone? ==
Alright for the past while now, I've been looking up and adding in obscure Beast Wars products. I remembered both the Mutating Card Game and both Jigsaw Puzzles, and I've already taken note to add those in. But one piece of memorabilia that has still eluded me is a really old comic... My memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, and I can't quite recall if it was a seperate mini-comic from the two-pack of "Optimus vs. Megatron!" or if the scenes I'm remembering are part of that comic as well.
The only scenes I recall from said comic are the opening, where a pre-earth mode Cheetor peeks through some vegetation to reveal a (very small) crystal. The subsequent dialog explained that they had to take on beast modes to overcome the toxic radiation of the crystal (much like the tv show).
Anyone has any similar recollection? Or if anyone has scans of the "Optimus vs. Megatron!" mini-comic to clear up wether or not it is a scene from that comic that I'm remembering, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I hope I'm not going crazy and remembering a comic that doesn't exist, because as far as I can tell, it's not listed on the Beast Wars comics page. Thanks --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:23, 3 October 2009 (EDT)

:It's not the "Optimus Primal Vs. Megatron!" comic, that one starts with Primal(in beast mode) flying in the sky, and then Cheetor running in the dark with a glow in his eyes. Unless you mistake the sparkle in his eyes for a crystal, it's not the same comic.--[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

::I vaguely recall something similar to that being used to advertise the first Beast Wars video game on PC and PSX.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:23, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

== Categories for modes? ==

I've been trying to find out which transformer one of my old toys is, and I'd hoped I could compare it against each of the transformers with an aeroplane mode - but I couldn't find such a list. So I wondered whether it would be a good idea to have categories for the transformers' modes, so I could go to "Category:Aeroplanes" and look it up like that. Good idea? I'm not volunteering to do the legwork :-) [[Special:Contributions/86.7.22.40|86.7.22.40]] 06:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
:[http://tfu.info/ID/index.htm This external link] might help. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:56, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== "Notes" ==
When did we start changing all the "Trivia" subheaders to "Notes"? ...And why even bother?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 20:17, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:Someone stated that they hated the header "Trivia" as it made the info seem inconsequential when sometimes it was actually useful/relevant, and those of us who thought they had a point started going along with that thought. (Although much to my annoyance I don't recall off-hand who said it or where, other than I think maybe it was on one of the Shattered Glass articles.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
::It becomes irritating to me since "Notes" was solely confined to the comics and media articles and "Trivia" was confined to character and toy pages, so now we've got a bunch of random character pages with a "Notes" section (Hot Rod character page, for instance) and others with a "Trivia" section (Hot Rod toy page, for instance) for no particular reason. It looks sloppy and I have no idea whether I should be trying to track down and reset the headings to one or the other or if I'll get warned for it.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 23:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
:::"Someone" was probably me. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:16, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, you're our resident cruft inquisition!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:18, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::I think some page's contents in the Trivia sections is, um, mixed up with notes (relevant but can't be put in other section) and trivia (a little irrelevant BUT notable) things. So, maybe page like this would still need a trivia section, that is, separate their Trivia section into Trivia and Notes section. Of course, that may involve subjective view of the users who edit the page.--'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:19, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::So are we going to decide on some form of consistent change or just use the two words randomly?--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 02:31, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I've been changing pages to "Notes" as I work them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:34, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It'd also be a fairly easy bot request.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:38, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Easy as long as you have a full list of the pages on the wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:39, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::It's not as simple as it might appear - we have [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|episode pages]] with Notes sections with Trivia subsections, so the bot would have to take that into account (and a blanket change of #Trivia anchors wouldn't be possible because some will be legitimately pointing to those Trivia sections). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::In the case of the bot request I made, I specifically said to replace <nowiki>==Trivia==</nowiki> with <nowiki>==Notes==</nowiki>. The pages you reference have <nowiki>===Trivia===</nowiki>, which should be possible to exclude in a search.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:54, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Preventing direct image linking ==

As we know, the wiki costs a fair bit to run and early on in our post Bookworm crash server move, it used more bandwidth than our bosses calculated, so the last thing we need is people going around directly linking images off of our server for forums or even their blogs or whatever (The [[Mountain Dew Robot]]s logo was one of our most popular articles... because some idiot linked the image to his website). Is there any way for us to prevent this? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:54, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes and no.
:Yes in the sense that it's pretty easy to create an .htaccess file that redirects hotlinks in some way.
:No in the sense that it might break the GoBoxes, if there isn't some way to make it so that the rewrite rules allow just the GoBox images to be hotlinked. Hrm. Although I think the GoBoxes are all PNGs, and we have very few PNGs as normal images, so it might not be ''that'' big a workaround problem. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, all the gobox images are in their own folder anyway, so it's simple enough to exclude them. This is probably a REALLY good idea; somebody give me a suitable (and tiny) replacement image and I'll try to make it so. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 08:45, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on what you had in mind. You could either go the route of just making a one pixel GIF (i.e. smallest image possible), or maybe use our logo with "no hotlinking permitted" written on it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:01, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Goatse. Or the nearest TF equivalent of "ridiculous shock image." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:00, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Anything from Kiss Players, then. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:09, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::...can we still let me inline images on my blog? Can we make exceptions? Because sometimes I do that, because it's technically me paying for the bandwidth anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:17, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Whitelisting domains is easy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::I'm not extremely savvy with that kind of stuff (most of my knowledge coming from archived talkpages on this wiki), so I have no idea whether it's possible.
:::::::What ''is'' a goatse, anyway? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::You don't want to know if you don't already. Trust me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:36, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Sorry I asked.
:::::::::*remembers the vandal that came in and messed with some talk pages* --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 10:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::''"Or the nearest TF equivalent"'' - Something like [[:Image:Tftm1986e.jpg|this]], you mean? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:50, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Something more like [[:Image:LegionRape1.jpg|this]] would be "the nearest TF equivalent", surely. [Or, potentially even more disturbing, [[:Image:AtariScream.jpg|this]].] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:07, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Even Kiss Players is only about a 3 on the shock meter compared to Goatse. An image of Pat Lee might be appropriate... I suggest sticking to something small anyway, otherwise the bandwidth problem is still there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:41, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::How about [[:Image:Siestacron.gif|this]] with something like "You have found The Void." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:52, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I vote for Pat Lee. That's awesome. BANDWIDTH SUPERSTAR! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 18:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, the GoBoxes are fairly bandwidth-light, right? What if we did a variation on them, with the leeched image replaced with a notice that the image was leeched, and encouraging them to go to TFWiki.net to learn about Transformers?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:57, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
:I stand by my Kiss Players suggestion. That or the image of dead Prime from TFTM with a tagline at the bottom saying "This image is dead due to hotlinking." --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:37, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
::Rosicrucian has the right idea. We make it work for us, rather than just 'punish' the people doing it. We don't try to shock or dismay, just state that hotlinking is bad (m'kay?) and that tfwiki.net is the place to learn about Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

:FFN brought up an important issue! (FFN also totally forgot about this immediately after posting the original question and only just read this discussion.) And yeah, I totally forgot about the Go-Box. Since I'm not on the Allspark, I've never really seen the go box in use, other than Derrik Wyatt's blog. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:22, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Quintessa.jpg|thumb|250px]]
::'''This''' is about the most vindictively confusing thing you could spike someone with, IMO. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:47, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::USE IT. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

:So... did we get around to doing anything about this or what? A couple of readers on Kotaku (a popular gaming site) have direct-linked some images. The Allspark crashing yesterday because of Kotaku and other sites linking to it shows those game sites have major readership numbers, so I'm concerned people doing this sort of direct linking will cost us significant bandwidth, and I'm getting tired of asking people to do the right thing and just upload it elsewhere if they really want to direct-link an image. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:30, 9 December 2009 (EST)
::Enjoy having your bandwidth wasted. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:38, 23 December 2009 (EST)
:::The only ones who can actually do anything about this are McFly and Scout, so unless anyone's talked to them directly about it... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 23 December 2009 (EST)

== GoBots on this wiki ==
{{main|Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots}}

== Audio file problems - they don't seem to work ==
I don't think we ever resolved this when Derik brought it up a long time ago, but whatever script we use for audio files doesn't work, at least it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. On Wikia wikis, when you click on a "listen to this audio file", your browser should activate java, buffer the ogg file and play it. However, on TFWiki, the browser merely tries to download the file, not play it. If you choose to open the file via your browser's download dialogue, the file downloads into your temp files and plays it off the nearest compatible media player, which is a *''remarkably''* roundabout way of doing things. Is there any way we can fix this? (I'm using Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 6)--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:19, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:I'm assuming that Wikia must have some embedded audio file player installed or something, which is probably doable via an extension. I have to admit I don't see it as a high priority... having the browser call up a helper file is a normal way of handling such things, plus I like being able to download and save the file.
:Not only that, but we barely have any audio files to worry about... I think the Scene Transition page is the only article I've come across that has an appreciable number of audio files on it. Although now that I think about it, I wonder if creating WAVs of characters' main quotes where possible might be an interesting idea, to give samples of what characters sound like. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:09, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Downloading - well, there's the minor issue that the majority of our users will be unable to play .ogg files anyway, for even if codecs are easily had, it's a fairly obscure format. Hell, I never even heard of it until 2005. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:27, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:::WinAmp plays OGGs just fine out-of-the-box, among a number of other media players out there, so I don't see an issue. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:35, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:In case we want to install an extension to handle this: [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:OggHandler] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:50, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

== Editing Go Boxes? ==
I've utterly failed at finding a guide to editing a Go Box address, so I figured I'd just note that the Go Box for "Tankor (ROTF)" instead links to a blank "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" page for some reason. {{unsigned|MCRG Again}}
:Fixed. Someone put the destination page down as "Revenge of the Fallen Tankor" in [[Template:Goicons]], thus causing the GoBox to send you to a non-existent page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:51, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

== When was the last Database backup? ==

Just curious. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:That is exactly why we need that "Database last backed-up by: (insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)." thing someone suggested a long time ago. That way, we may avoid Bookworm Crash 2.0. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:15, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Of course, one of the major causes of The Bookworm Event was that corrupt or otherwise failed backups were being registered as successful. That backups are regularly checked is just as important as backups being made in the first place, and "(insert-person-here) on: (insert-date-here)" wouldn't prove that. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::At least we know if there ''is'' a backup to check at all. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::By us, manually? I dunno. We pay for automatic backups every week as part of our hosting. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah, that last one is slightly more reassuring.
:::I mean-- they're the same automatic backups Bookworm was theoretically making, but IIRC the current host was picked (in part) for having a good reputation for such things. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:32, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::McFly confirmed [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive41#Googlejuice_-_Bad_News_Everyone|a while back]] that the auto backups were working, so hopefully they still are. Good news for when we eventually upgrade the software! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

==Self-sufficiency==
It's come up that the hosting costs for this site exceed the revenue generated by this site. That's a bad situation, not sustainable in the long run. Because I don't want to see the site go away, addressing it should be a big concern. Is there anything we can do to generate extra revenue?
I see a few potential avenues:
:a: more advertising or better advertising.
:b: licensing out some of our content. This is tricky, since it's partially not owned by us. But what about something like an iPhone app that pulls in our This Day in Transformers History? That should be ok if we don't use the name Transformers - it'd be a kind of news service.
:c: some kind of virtual gifts or badges perhaps? I'm thinking like the gigantion award for contributions, but where users have the option of paying a dollar to send another editor a token of some sort. Cons are that it would require some sort of transaction engine and coding.
Any other ideas?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:53, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Another idea - best one yet, maybe. Add in amazon links to all products, and set up an affiliate account. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:47, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The hosting costs for this site SOMETIMES don't exceed the revenue generated. And the difference is usually by $5-10 if so. We're not in a crisis by any stretch. But I do have some ideas. I'm thinking of putting a minimum bid on the top ad. I've been told that having a minimum bid reduces the amount of bidders, but in my experience with Shortpacked!, the opposite is true. I lost a lot of money by removing the minimum bid for a few months, and stuff shot right back up to normal when I reinstated it. The only problem I see with that is that our top ad IS kind of unstandard-sized, so that means we're aiming it at a smaller pool of advertisers than most. But I'm gonna try this thing. The top ad's only bringing in $1.60/day at this very moment anyhow, and so that's not a huge investment to lose either way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:59, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The unfortunate underside to this is that you have to cancel all of the spot's current bids to change the minimum bid. It'll take a day or two for ads to show up again as folks return to it. But I'll throw up an ad on there myself to bridge the time.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And just like that we're in the black. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:05, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Segue-touring out of crassly commercial concerns into site-content concerns that ''overlap'' crassly commercial ones...
:::Our "year" pages are a mess. No one works on them, and they're just kinda... there and useless.
:::For months I've been toying with a suggestion that we re-format them (dumping what we have, which isn't much in most cases) and re-do them as a cross between the old "annual assortment" pack-in brochures and the old TSarchive wave listings. (Which I always found useful for gettign a picture of what came out when.)
:::For the old pages it'd basically be a wave listing, but for the current year, you'd have a functional "What's out/what's upcoming" list, which could be updated with dates a wave was first sites, when a product was available online... Including Amazon-icon links after character names is a ''plus'', because it give users the ability to see the gallery, read reviews, etc.
:::I just think it could be really ''useful'', I often feel swamped by the sheer volume of TF merchandise being offered, and I'd love to have a large central page that keeps track of it all. That such a page might serve as a revenue stream is pure gravy on top. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:16, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm willing to use my existing Amazon seller's account for this.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:21, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::We could implement this idea without totally scrapping the year pages couldn't we? Split out the toy pages for more recent years so you don't have to browse way down the page to get to the Amazon links and such, while still keeping our other info. As for nothing being done with them, I've been looking for a new Wiki project to work on. I'll start tackling these, once we have a consensus on what to do with them.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 23:26, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::See, the difference between being in the red and in the black is like 50 cents a day. I don't think we need to try that hard. I don't think the Wiki needs to be a For-Profit business. What would we even do with the money? Advertise more? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Depends on how much money we get. I mean, dovetailing with the BG wiki idea... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:53, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::The whole financial "crisis" came out of the notion that we might not be able to afford a GoBots Wiki. Thus bringing to light the sudden reality that we might not be able to exceed Super Jawsome levels and reach Mega Jawsome status because of cash strappitude. If maintaining the TF Wiki as-is isn't a financial bother, if the GB Wiki (should it ever happen) does turn out to create an issue, I'm still willing to donate and I'm sure a handful of chums around here are also up to the task. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 19:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah... I don't think that people are realizing that running another wiki on the same server, on a subdomain is ''literally'' free. I mean-- it will have to share bandwidth with TFWiki... but that's no different than if we documented the material within this site! They're just logistically separate. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
===Analytics for October 2008 - October 2009===
[[Image:Analytics october2009.png|thumb|250px|What are you squinting at this for? click on it to get the full-size version!]]
Discussing site promotion prompted me to take a look at our analytics again.
*Traffic dipped 20% in mid-September, finally shedding most of our movie bump... but stayed above where we were in May when the bump began. (Translation: We gained.) The economy's pinch on people's free time, plus the relative lull in TF news is probably a factor here.
*In the last 3 weeks, we've had a surge in search-engine traffic-- vast numbers of which ('''much''' moreso than normal) are leaving right after getting here, meaning we don't have the information they're looking for.
*This spike is almost certainly related to people searching for information about the ROTF DVD release. Not information on the film itself... because traffic on our film page has seen no corresponding spike.
I suggest we create a "ROTF DVD field guide" page, listing all the different versions, what features come with what, pictures of the box (if possible) where they're available, etc. (We're talking about ~2,500 people every day that come here looking for this, then immediately leave because we don't have it.) The traffic spike around the DVD promotion seems to be mirroring the one around the film (though to a much smaller degree) which means it's about halfway through. But-- these bumps have a "long tail," especially going into the holiday shopping season. We can expect a page like this to yield significant traffic dividends over the next 80-odd days.

So.... yeah. [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]]. Big blinking neon sign in the analytics. We should make this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:I heartily concur, my good man. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

::Well don't look at me! I have no idea how many versions exist! Here, whoever wants to block it in can use this image. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::You can put it back now, mostly, Derik. I put in the main details. It needs some pictures that I don't have, but it's ready enough to release, I think. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 15:05, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

==(Universe) identifier==
:''See also: [[Talk:Universe (2003 franchise)]]''

We are currently using (Universe) as identifier for both characters from the 2003 line and the 2008 line. This does not look like a fine situation to me. Proposing change to (Universe 2003) and (Universe 2008), or perhaps something shorter. I'm not sure if and how this should effect such identifiers as (Universe Micromaster). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:54, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:I think "Name (Universe 2003/2008)" would be a nice idea. As for some characters who have two counterparts within a franchise... it surely need some discussion. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 04:34, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:We already have a few with the year in the name, e.g. [[Treadshot (Universe 2008)]], which is disambiguated with [[Treadshot (Universe)]]. I don't know if that's strictly a good precedent... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:42, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::That's a terrible precedent. If both toys are trying to occupy the namespace "Treadshot (Universe)" '''both''' get disambig'd, and neither gets the no-year slot. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:13, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, what's the alternative? List the "series" and have (Universe Classic)/(Universe G1)/(Universe Cybertron)/etc? - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 06:05, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:::Probably best (and simplest) to change any Universe tags to include the year. While not strictly needed if there is only one character of that name in any Universe line, it would save time if another character of that name appears in a Universe line later (Short aside to anyone who says the Universe line is over: Hasbro has stated that the concept is a good one, they may bring it back as Universe (2015) and store exclusives [such as Powerglide, Hardhead, and Skyfall] may be released under the universe banner even if no new Universe product is shipping). As for Universe Micromaster, this could probably stay as is but I'm not averse to changing it to something else. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:28, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Our ''existing'' policy '''had''' been "The line is called Universe, therefore that is the disambig." That Hasbro was obnoxious enough to gift us with a second Universe line, with oodles of name-reuse... hh.
::::Let us be clear on what we are discussing-- a proposal to '''change''' the disambigs of both the 2003 and 2008 lines, such that we will, in the future, treat them as is there was '''always''' an invisible qualifying subtitle (at least as far as the disambig is concerned) much like how "Star Trek" slowly drifted into being called "Star Trek: The Original Series" even in official products simply for clarity/sanity-- picking up an after-the-fact subtitle 25 years late.
::::I would ''generally'' oppose that kind of thing... because it errs to far on the side of "disambigs should provide information" (which inevitably leads to obnoxious [[Project:Deckchair edit|Deckchair edit]]s-- it's simply ''not'' the purpose of disambigs.) But both the 2003 and 2008 lines are sweeping toylines with a hodgepodge of mostly-absent fiction and a cast of characters creeping into the triple digits with a lot of name overlap. For our '''sanity''', this might be a good move.
::::Phrasing this as an implicit subtitle of the franchise is important, IMO. Because it means we're '''not''' turning disambigs into information-delivery systems (e.g. "Prowl (Universe 2003)" even though he came out in 2004) but merely recognizing the need to more clearly seperate these two unrelated franchises.
::::So, um... tentatively in favor? Provided the actual move doesn't happen until November. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:11, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Surely there's a set of '''ex'''plicit subtitles for the 08-09 line in the form of the classic/G1/etc series? - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 22:16, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::: So like how everything done before 1992 is retroactively "Generation 1"? Aheh. Seriously, though, I currently have no problem with (Universe 2003)/(Universe 2008) as opposed to a sloppier (Universe Cybertron) or (Universe Generation 1) or (Universe Classics). We've already done this for [[Ransack]] and [[Treadshot]], and given that catch-as-catch-can store exclusives (not to mention the discount-market repackages) came out in 2003-style ''Universe'' packaging well until ''2008'', it's not insane to think that we won't get a continued trickle of 2008 ''Universe'' toys for a while. That being said, the biggest difference between 2003 ''Universe'' and 2008 ''Universe'', to me, is that 2003 ''Universe'' has a specific attached fiction, with Unicron and the interdimensional battle and all that - it's right there on the package, whereas 2008 ''Universe'' is literally a catch-all line where it can be explicitly said "This is the same team of Aerialbots you remember from G1, just in new bodies" whereas with the 2003 line, you have a bunch of dudes whose origins are virtually unknown. When you look at it like that, it seems like "2003" vs "2008" is a reasonable breakdown, as if we get, say, another green construction vehicle named "Scavenger" in Universe 2008 packaging, it'll likely be marked "Generation 1 Series", meaning that we don't have to disambiguate between this theoretical new Scavenger and the Mini-Con wolf. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:26, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I agree with Hoop. Using (Universe Cybertron) and such would be terrible. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:28, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, because that would be the opposite of a franchise-identifier, that would be a continuity-identifier. Thus my long-winded schpiel above about re-naming the ''franchise'' identifiers. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:59, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::You'll find, Derik, that I was pretty much agreeing with you re: "Universe (2003)" and "Universe (2008)," especially given that it appears, based on a thing from the DVD press junket, that we may be adding "Universe (2010)" to the mix. I'm assuming we're considering each one a new "Universe" series every time... there's a stop in product? There's a packaging change? What's the delineator? Like I said above, the 2003 packaging stayed in use until very very recently... [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:32, 2 November 2009 (EST)
::::::::I've kind of gathered that the delineator was the change in logo/packaging. But if Hasbro is going to trot out a new version of Universe every few years, perhaps that should be reexamined. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:41, 2 November 2009 (EST)
Just noticed this: when talking about anything called "Universe", we put the year in front in the disambig (like "Universe (2008 toyline)"). But the current Universe characters are dismabig'd with the year at the end (like "Treadshot (Universe 2008)"). Should this be made the same or is the difference between them good enough to keep things this way? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 05:46, 15 November 2009 (EST)
:Nobody says "2008 Universe or "toyline 2008". [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 06:50, 15 November 2009 (EST)
::And I see no reason to make disambigs longer than necessary, nor anybody agreeing with the point enough to move pages like [[Universe (cartoon)]], which nobody talked about at all. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 06:59, 15 November 2009 (EST)
:::I'm quite under the impression that the above conversation is about the year as invisible, retroactive name element to both and all possible future "Universe" franchises. Hence, even if there is only one "Universe" character/element, it will still get the franchise's year in its identifier as part of franchise's name. And no, nobody spoke about the cartoon, but is that such a different thing from character pages when only talking about its part in either of the Universe lines? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:38, 15 November 2009 (EST)
::::I'm so not going to let this discussion die off like this. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 4 December 2009 (EST)
:::::So, should we add years to any Universe tag or only if there are 2003 and 2008 figures? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 01:02, 6 December 2009 (EST)
::::::No, because it's ugly and unnecessary. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:28, 6 December 2009 (EST)

== GoBots faction symbols? ==

Ages ago, I remember reading a toy review (probably by Zobovor) that mentioned the [[Guardian_(GoBots)|Guardian_(GoBots)]]s and [[Renegade]]s had faction-symbols. Specifically, IIRC "tiny stickers with bad glue that liked to slide around and fall off."

I don't ''think'' they've appeared in TF Fiction... but how would I know? (Maybe an artist modeled one of Cy-Kill's cameos on a toy with stickers intact?) Can anyone tell me what they looked like? Are [http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l262/skywarp2/Gobots/challengeofgobots11.jpg these] them? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:07, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hrm, [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/81b1fc7cdafbb765?hl=en&dmode=source this] is the review I remember with "friendly" and "enemy" stickers of dubious relevance... I wonder where the slidy-stickers memory came from? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:16, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
::Not sure if this helps, but TFU's entry on Tonka GoBot [http://www.tfu.info/Gobots/Guardians/Rumble/rumble.htm Rumble] has a 'Guardian' sticker on it, and ToyArchive's review of the Gobot [http://www.toyarchive.com/Gobots/Blast.html Blast] has a Renegades sticker on it. Not sure if these are the slidy stickers you refer to, but they do resemble some kind of formalized faction logos to my inexperienced eye -- [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 02:39, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I remember them being triangular, so those are likely them! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:44, 1 November 2009 (EST)
:::FYI,. the same symbols are on the Power Suit Combiners. So yes, they're definitely faction symbols-- however infrequently-used. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:53, 1 November 2009 (EST)

== Privacy policy ==

Since we currently have a link in the footer of every page of the Wiki which leads to a blank page, I thought I'd have a go at bashing out something resembling a [[User:Abates/Privacy policy|privacy policy]]. Thoughts? Please feel free to make changes to it.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, however I did watch all of ''Boston Legal''. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 2 November 2009 (EST)
:Can we write it as if we were Captain Kirk? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:41, 2 November 2009 (EST)

Having a privacy policy is kind of a big deal. It's a legal document that 'we' the wiki have to follow. I'd recommend against having anything other than the most general text. There's little to gain for us (How many of our users, really, won't browse or edit due to privacy? Not a lot I'd wager.) but a lot to lose if we promise more than we can deliver. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:34, 2 November 2009 (EST)
:So it should be shorter and vaguer? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:59, 2 November 2009 (EST)

== 10000th page ==

Is there anything special planned for the ten thousandth "real" page? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:25, 2 November 2009 (EST)
:I could see a little template to commemorate it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:47, 2 November 2009 (EST)
::I don't imagine anything CAN be specifically planned, like say making a specific character or something the 10,000th page. It'll probably wind up being something incredibly obscure and wiki-tastic, like the manufacturer of the Optimus Prime lollipop from that one BotCon. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:52, 2 November 2009 (EST)
:::Yeah, our last milestone articles were a [[Ego|TFCC TransTech character]] and a [[Michael York|famous actor who got a whole one line of dialogue in a bit of TF fiction]]. If our 10000th article ''isn't'' obscure, I'll be surprised. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:07, 2 November 2009 (EST)
::::I have created [[:Image:Wiki10k.png|a proposal]] for what I wanna stick on the 10k article. It'll be smaller when we actually do it, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:26, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:Our article count is currently inflated by about 75 due to the macron issue, so it'll be when the counter hits 10075 or so. :O --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:55, 2 November 2009 (EST)

[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] asked on [[Image talk:Wiki10k.png|here]] about marking previous milestones. As accurate as I can work it out:

* 1000th: [[Shooting Star]] on 17 May 2006
* 2000th: [[Beast (planet)]] on 30 September 2006
* 3000th: [[Altered Image!]] on 3 February 2007
* 4000th: [[Noise Effect]] on 25 June 2007
* 5000th: [[Planet-Destroying Fortress]] on 2 November 2007
* 6000th: [[Larry Leahy]] on 24 March 2008
And then 7000 was sometime in September 2008, followed by:
* 8000th: [[Ego]] on January 25th, 2009
* 9000th: [[Michael York]] on June 28th, 2009
--[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:46, 3 November 2009 (EST)

:Is it weird that both the 1k and 5k milestones I mentioned are space-based objects of some kind? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 13:28, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:Ideally, I think we could make a milestones page that links to all of these, and the milestone icons on each of them link back to it for easy navigation. Maybe put it at [[Transformers Wiki: Milestones]]. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:01, 3 November 2009 (EST)

::More importantly... what will be the ''last'' article on TFWiki? Mu-hu-hah-ha-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha! [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 15:42, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:::"Axanite". --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:13, 3 November 2009 (EST)
::::Mr. Willis, you do realize that by including that red-link there, you're just begging for an editor with too much time on their hands to prove you wrong, right? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 16:20, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:::::I don't think you understand what [http://www.worlds-worst.com/worldsworst/fanfic/idea_detail.php?LinkID=147&CatID=2 Axanite] is. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:23, 3 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Gah, here I am trying to pare down the wanted pages, and then you go and do something like make a fake link. DYW *Fixed* --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:25, 3 November 2009 (EST)
::::::At least the author put an exclamation mark at the end of the title to make it easier to disambiguate with the character. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:52, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:Surely the 1st page is also a milestone, but I suppose it is just something boring like the main page or something. 10,000 is a lot of pages! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:17, 3 November 2009 (EST)
::Not counting the main page, the first article was (unsurprisingly) [[The Transformers (cartoon)]] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:52, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:Hey, I made the 2000th article! I feel so special! Not really, but still. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:37, 5 November 2009 (EST)

A couple thoughts: One, if the count is off by 75 due to the Bookworm crash, I would think that means the 9000th article was actually something else, as it happened after the crash. Two, we should make a milestone list, some little icons for each milestone, and co-opt the custom Factions icons option. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:00, 3 November 2009 (EST)
:I just tried a little investigation as to what it really was. Unfortunately, the new pages log was ''extremely'' uncooperative. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 16:07, 6 November 2009 (EST)

::FWIW, the 75th article after Michael York was [[Ryan Church]] on the 9th of July. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:45, 13 November 2009 (EST)

== Wanted pages? ==

Yesterday we had over 4150 wanted pages. Now we have ~4012. I've seen nothing in the deletions or page creations that would cause such a sudden shift in the numbers. Is there anything odd going on here or did we really knock out over 100 wanted pages in the span of a day?
I'll also take this moment to point out that we still have the duplicate "special character" pages cluttered up the orphaned pages since the bookworm crash. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 12:04, 5 November 2009 (EST)
:Name variations were consolidated and links made more consistent. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:34, 5 November 2009 (EST)

:I discovered that sorting the list of wanted pages alphabetically makes it a ''lot'' easier to spot duplicates. :) McFly has said that he'll apply the fix for the macron pages when he and Scout get the time to upgrade the wiki software... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:34, 5 November 2009 (EST)
::Ah, so the upgrade is still in the pipe?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:39, 5 November 2009 (EST)
:::Well, I'm only assuming, admittedly, given it's a couple of months now since [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive41#Googlejuice_-_Bad_News_Everyone|he mentioned it]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:50, 5 November 2009 (EST)

== Skin problem in Chrome ==

Have any changes been made to the site skin in the last 24 hours? It's currently misbehaving for me in Chrome (no problems in Firefox and IE though). Everything in the left-hand column from the navigation menu down is being pushed down below the content area. It was working fine last night! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:06, 7 November 2009 (EST)
:After further investigation, it appears that Google recently released a new version on the beta channel, which is probably behind the problem. I'll have to see if I can find somewhere to report Chrome bugs. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:08, 7 November 2009 (EST)

== An Idea ==
Would it be possible to somehow code a searchbox thingy for this community portal? Because having to look through tons of archives to find something takes a while. I tried stealing the code from Wikipedia, but (oh the horror) it's HTML. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 06:59, 8 November 2009 (EST)
:Go to Special Pages>Search, uncheck "(Main)", check "Transformers Wiki talk", then run your search. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:29, 8 November 2009 (EST)
::Thanks. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:01, 8 November 2009 (EST)
:::No problem. Not that a Community Portal searchbox isn't an interesting idea, but with how slow our tech admins have been in responding lately, I figured I'd mention that workaround.
:::If you find yourself frequently searching other namespaces, you can change what you search in by default by [[Special:Preferences|going here]] and clicking "Search". --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:46, 8 November 2009 (EST)
::::As I said, I stole some code from Wikipedia, but apparently our wiki doesn't like HTML. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:48, 8 November 2009 (EST)
:I've added a Community Portal search box to the [[User:Derik/kired_tools|Kired Tools]] utilities. Bug reports welcome. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:13, 11 November 2009 (EST)
::<s>Well, here's a bug report for ya. I just spent five minutes reloading the site so it would work after I used your Kired Tools utilities. I may have screwed something up, so I'll keep trying.</s> --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:46, 12 November 2009 (EST)
:::Ignore that. It was caused by me screwing up. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:50, 12 November 2009 (EST)

== Unreleased toy sections ==

I've noticed that on some pages unreleased toys are integrated into the overall toy sections, while on others they are separate. Personally I find it more useful if they are separate, as it keeps confusion as to what's really out there to a minimum. Is there a standard position? If not, should there be a standard? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:46, 16 November 2009 (EST) (sorry if this is the wrong place to bring this up)
:Could you provide examples? From what I can tell, usually we integrate them and add a unreleased toy template (the one with Unicron). --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:05, 18 November 2009 (EST)
::On the [[Unicron/toys]] page there is a separate section for the unproduced toys. While on [[Arcee (G1)]] the unproduced Headmaster starts off her toys section (which also includes an unproduced Titanium series toy). These are the two pages that brought the question to my mind in the first place, but I'm sure there are more. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:22, 18 November 2009 (EST)
:::The unreleased toys should be listed under their intended release toyline, not segregated under "Unrelease toys." Unicron's page in that section is really old and needs to be updated to reflect this. It's funny, because it's his template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:20, 18 November 2009 (EST)
::::I just updated it. Still need pics of the Japanese version of G1 Unicron. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:56, 18 November 2009 (EST)
::::That's what struck me as so strange, that his section of all the pages would be different. As I said before, I find the standard set up somewhat strange but consensus seems to be against me. Anyways, thanks for the clarification. I'll try to fix any more such problems that I come across. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:12, 19 November 2009 (EST)

==CSS not working?==
I'm not able to see the blue boxes around the disambig templates, and the featured characters template doesn't have lines around the columns. Neither Firefox or Internet Explorer display it correctly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:10, 17 November 2009 (EST)
:I purged cache and refreshed, and am unable to reproduce the issue.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:14, 17 November 2009 (EST)
::That's what I did when it first came up. The issue persists. (My computer has been having file system problems lately, but I doubt that's the cause here.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 17 November 2009 (EST)
:::I think Derik broke the CSS file on his server. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:19, 17 November 2009 (EST)
::::Wait, I did what?
::::...do you actually think that, or is that just the automatic first assumption? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:23, 21 November 2009 (EST)
:::::It was indeed an assumption, but it was based on looking at the tfwiki_tmp_global.css and seeing it ended with a couple of code fragments. Admittedly, since no one else has complained about anything being broken, I have to fall back on the assumption that it's a problem at Interrobang's end, so my apologies for the accusation. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:54, 21 November 2009 (EST)

== Question ==

Is there a feature in the software that allows you to find all pages created by a specific user? Just curious. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:17, 20 November 2009 (EST)
:Nope, I don't think there's even an extension to do that. I think the only way to do it at the moment would be to download a backup (if we had a way to do so) and run a script on it to check who did the first revision of each page. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:14, 20 November 2009 (EST)
::Even if we could do that, sadly any page created between June and March wouldn't would just say that Maintainence Script was the creator. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 21:45, 21 November 2009 (EST)

:You could try simply scanning through the User Contributions pages of the user in question, as any pages they've created are marked a "New page:" prefix in the edit summary. Though as Bluestreak says, it'll only work so far back due to the crash. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:57, 22 November 2009 (EST)
::That ''would'' work, though it would be a very time-consuming process, depending on the user's number of edits. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:13, 23 November 2009 (EST)
:::And contribution != creation. The first page creator might not be the one who does the lion's share of the work on a given page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]]

:::True, but it's the only way I can think of to do it. Out of curiosity, was there any particular reason you wanted to know about new pages? (Maybe we can help?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 24 November 2009 (EST)
::::Just wondering. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 08:09, 25 November 2009 (EST)

== We're Number One! ==

Go to google.com and do a search for transformers wiki. For me, tfwiki.net is showing up first. Awesome! Can someone else confirm? (We're still lagging on Yahoo search.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:31, 24 November 2009 (EST)
:Has been happening occasionally for months. If it's doing it consistently now, that's awesome. As I've said many times, we've got momentum on our side.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:33, 24 November 2009 (EST)
::Hmm, I'm still consistently getting wikia as the number one hit. Might be different since I'm Canadian. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:03, 24 November 2009 (EST)
:::It's still Wikipedia then Wikia then us for me (Google seems to treat "wiki" and "wikipedia" as synonyms, which is a bit like treating "Windows" as a synonym for "operating system", but hey...) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 24 November 2009 (EST)
::::Over on Google.ca, at least, we're now ahead of Wikipedia for Transformers Wiki. Still have Wikia to beat, though. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:23, 24 November 2009 (EST)
:::::First the tf-wikia, then tfwiki.net for me (then the dutch wikipedia, then the english wikipedia, then the dutch tf-wikia... there's a dutch tf-wiki???). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:24, 25 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Always Wikia first down here. TF Wiki is fifth. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:09, 25 November 2009 (EST)

::::::Wikia provides multilanguage versions for all its wikis. Most of the non-English TF ones aren't very busy though. The largest seems to be the Hungarian version (hu.) with 661 articles. The Danish version was vandalized in 2008 and has been sitting that way ever since! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 25 November 2009 (EST)

:::::::Was it the usual FUCK DETOUR guy I wonder? Has Detour been policing all the wikis? :) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 14:41, 26 November 2009 (EST)
::::::::Actually, it was Kremzeek, our ''other'' notorious vandal. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:13, 27 November 2009 (EST)

==Suggestion for a new project: The Quote Hunt==
I think it's clear that there are a number of pages that really need decent quotes. Some lack them and some have terrible ones ([[Divebomb (G1)|case in point]]). I'd like to put forward an idea to go over as many pages as possible and ensure that any quotes used are suitiable and if not that where possible a good one can be found. Obviously, one person could do this but I thought a consensus on which quotes worked might be better. Maybe a systematic approach. People take specific eras and work with them. Opinions? [[User:Eire]]

==Advice requested==
Hi people. I'm relatively new to the Transfandom and I didn't really know where to put this. This seemed as good a place as any. BTW I think this wiki probably surpasses anything else as the repository of TF knowledge. If only we could fit all this into Furmans ''Ultimate Guide''. A few questions:

1. What's the best and most widely used forum? I currently use IDW's but not sure if it's best
2. Is deviantart a good fanart display place? (my page is [http://www.minimus-minor.deviantart.com])

Thanks. [[User:Warpspeed Hellscream|Screamer]] 13:46, 27 November 2009 (EST)

:Those sorts of questions don't really suit this site, since this is a wiki dealing in the TF fiction, its history, the toys and so on, rather than a forum for us to have a chinwag about things that are unrelated to this wiki. Besides, the first question is also unanswerable - there is no "best" forum. The "big four" TF sites seem to be allspark.com, TFW2005.com, tformers.com and seibertron.com. I do not believe we can make a recommendation for you. As for your second question, I assume so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:33, 27 November 2009 (EST)

==Wal-Mart Black Friday exclusives==
For those who haven't seen them, the Wal-Mart exclusives this year were straight repackages of the Target-exclusive Scouts from 2007 (Storm Surge, Clocker, Air Raid and Hardtop) in Universe packaging. This wouldn't really be a thing, except that they're all explicitly stated as being from Energon or Cybertron on the card back. So do we have to create four new articles or what? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)
:That seems pretty unusual as far as I know. Usually if they are going to re-release a figure they slip it into the current line, and we don't consider them to be actually part of that toyline, just a re-release in different packaging (example: "Cybertron collection" legends [[Leo Prime]]). I don't know what to do in the case of repackaging into a past toyline. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 09:36, 28 November 2009 (EST)
::They even have Sector 7 markings on some of the figures. Is there a Sector 7 in Cybertron now? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:33, 28 November 2009 (EST)
:::Taking a second look at it, it appears they were deliberately put into Cybertron. They are in the Universe "Cybertron Series" I believe. I think they are Cybertron characters. (I never did figure out what those Sector 7 insignias were supposed to mean, even in the movie universe. They don't appear to be part of the Sector 7 faction.) - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:42, 28 November 2009 (EST)
::::All that needs to be assumed for movieverse figures with Sector 7 insignia is that the vehicles scanned were issued by Sector 7.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 10:45, 28 November 2009 (EST)
:::::But how does that relate to these new Cybertron releases? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:47, 28 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Probably the same as Cyber Planet Keys relate to the Movie Universe. That is to say, just pretend they aren't there. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:05, 28 November 2009 (EST)

== Proposal ==

So, in the wake of the Bookworm crash, we have had to reupload hundreds of images, perhaps more. A lot of those currently have no description save "Uploading image file". Couldn't we run a bot to at least append <nowiki>{{bookworm|5}}</nowiki> tags to them? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:30, 28 November 2009 (EST)
:It'd be handy if there was some way to sort them into different categories by type, so we could have a "screencaps needing descriptions", "toy images needing descriptions", etc categories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:47, 28 November 2009 (EST)
::That would be very diificult. We'd need to have people running around listing all the toy images so we could then feed the list to Deceptitraan. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:07, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:::Sure, but if we simply stick the bookworm tag on them, all we're doing is shifting them from [[Special:Uncategorizedimages]] to [[:Category:Recovery-5]], which I can't see much advantage in. Sorting them into categories by type may be extra work now, but it should hopefully encourage more people to take a crack at putting descriptions to them later. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:11, 30 November 2009 (EST)
::::The advantage is that, Uncategorized images implies to me that only a category is lacking (since there are images that at least have descriptions, just no categories), while having it in Recovery-5 tells that the entire description is missing, and thus it's higher on the "needs attention" scale. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:50, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:::::That's one way to look at it. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:42, 1 December 2009 (EST)

== Reprolabels ==

...my God. ''Finally'' they advertise with us. I love the company, but it was downright ''mystifying'' that they hadn't hit up our Project Wonderful before now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:05, 6 December 2009 (EST)
: I don't think they do a lot of advertising, period. I can't say I've ever seen a banner ad for them or anything like that. 99% of what I've heard from them has been either because I'm on their mailing list, from Delta himself posting on various fan forums with updates, or from the various fan forums frontpaging his updates. Word of mouth, essentially. (I also can't believe they don't offer gift certificates.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 05:20, 6 December 2009 (EST)

== Bot activity ==

''Deceptitran''-ish (it's the new 'bot, but it's using Deceptitran's account) is currently adding images which lost their descriptions to [[:Category:Image import error]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:50, 7 December 2009 (EST)
:That should help clean-up what's left of the aftermath of B-C. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:02, 7 December 2009 (EST)
::Bot has finished sweeping. It may have missed one or two here or there (I'm working from an outdated list,) but the '''vast majority''' of the import-error images should now be listed. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 8 December 2009 (EST)

== Some thoughts on Infoboxes ==

I've been picking away at some ideas for [http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/infobox2_proposal_derik.pdf a redesigned infobox]. The idea isn't to ''change'' what we have so much as to standardize it, clean up the code, make it more immediately useful, etc. The biggest change in this proposal would be some top-level metadata-- "type of media," "language," "year produced."

I'd also like to suggest we add a "Format:" (?) field the data below. e.g. ( SD/HD for videos, color/b&w for comics, probably size for books. ) I was flipping through some of our UK stuff yesterday and it wasn't clear if it had ever been republished in color... because we don't have a standard scheme for addressing republishing (which I only touched on in the abstract in the PDF above.) When republishing data was included ''at all'' on pages... there was no consistent section title, language or treatment to it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:14, 7 December 2009 (EST)
:My suggestion for a tweak is that I wonder if there's some way to create production order/reading order lists that can be called up automatically by the series, prev, and next links in the infoboxes. Most of them match up OK, but there's things like the Timelines stories where it's getting kind of snarled up.
:The continuity area also gets out of wack sometimes in terms of consistency. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 December 2009 (EST)
::''Part'' of that can probably be attributed to the fact we lack an example page that give a clear guideline how to implement these things. -[[Special:Contributions/150.253.70.235|150.253.70.235]] 19:15, 7 December 2009 (EST)

== Transformers (2007) BD-live content? ==

So apparently ppls who picked up the '''2007''' Transformers film in blue-ray were able to access [http://tformers.com/transformers-/11768/news.html exclusive content] starting in June, including the (previously IMAX-exclusive?) [http://transformerslive.blogspot.com/2009/06/transformers-bd-live-breakdown.html intro scene for Maggie and Fig's death.]

Do we / can we have this documented and screencapped? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:13, 8 December 2009 (EST)
:Four of those things--Metal in Motion, Stunts 101, Choose Your Weapon, and Voices--sound like they might be the same as the four featurettes that were available on the Circuit City website if you bought the Circuit City version of the DVD.
:If so, I actually have them on [http://www.youtube.com/JeysieC my YouTube account], as I uploaded them after Circuit City went bye-bye to ensure they were still archived somehow.
:...which, er, doesn't help with your specific request, but I thought I'd mention it anyway in case someone else found it useful. *ahem* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:56, 8 December 2009 (EST)
::I agree the concent listed seems liek a lot of shovelware. (The walmart ROTF "transforming megatron case" videos are in there too) unfortunately these two deleted scenes are actually important. :( -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:04, 8 December 2009 (EST)
:::I will attempt to get a hold of this content once I can use my friend's PS3 as a player if no one else has done it by then. Could be tomorrow if I'm lucky. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 22:10, 8 December 2009 (EST)

==Video game plot box?==
Not sure how to actually title that, but what I was thinking was there are quite a few TF games where you play the same story potentially as multiple characters (the console versions of ROTF, the Armada game, the BW games, etc.) so theoretically most of those games' plot could happen to any of the playable characters. In that case, on each character's page, you put a rough summary of the plot and above it, a box like "This character was one of several playable options in a video game - the events described below form a very specific [[micro-continuity]]" or words to that effect. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 16:30, 8 December 2009 (EST)

==Blocking Spam Accounts==
First, apologies if this is in the incorrect place, but I am trying this on Walky's advice. I'm running a different wiki at The Mega Man Network called [http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/ The Mega Man Universe], and we've been constantly plagued by tons and tons of spambots signing up and creating spam entries in the Wiki, trying to pawn medications and such. This has forced us to shut down registration, which has slowed production considerably. We have attempted to install anti-spammer software, but to no avail; Walky said that you all seemed to have something well in place, and so I've come for any help or advice on the subject that can be given. If this matter is bettered discussed in another avenue or by e-mail with one of you, please let me know where to go and I can proceed there. [[User:LBD Nytetrayn|LBD "Nytetrayn"]] 20:43, 8 December 2009 (EST)
:You'd be best off starting off by setting up CAPTCHAs on account creation. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:48, 9 December 2009 (EST)

==10,000 pages and numbering==
So, we should probably make the main page say that this is an editable resource of 10,005 pages, rather than 10005 pages.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:20, 16 December 2009 (EST)
:<nowiki>*</nowiki>makes it so* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:27, 16 December 2009 (EST)
::Thanks for the quick response.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:34, 16 December 2009 (EST)
:::You're welcome! :) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 16 December 2009 (EST)

::What about users from those parts of the world that use periods for digit grouping instead of commas? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:30, 16 December 2009 (EST)
:::You'll have to take that one up with Mediawiki, unfortunately... the comma is the only option for place separation that I can see off-hand on the list of "magic words". --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 16 December 2009 (EST)
:::Ah, wait, I see. "The input with decimal and decimal group separators, and localized digit script, according to the wiki's default locale." --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:42, 16 December 2009 (EST)
::::If possible wouldn't a space be the best option?[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 03:48, 24 December 2009 (EST)

== Foreign name format (3) ==

:''[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23#Foreign name format (2)|Old discussion 2]]''

I've found a, um, problem? with the character foreign name. By far, it seems we have an old format and a new format {{m-}} both seems contain respective problem, especially if the character have a bunch of name.

*[[User:TX55/Sandbags 7#Testing|Example]]
**The old one is simpler in reading (in some way) but is '''vertically too crowd''', sometimes it would just like building a tower.
**The new one is simpler in format and suitable for a character with not-so-many-foreign-names. However, if it comes to a character with bunches of foreign name, it will became '''horizontally too crowd''', especially for a character who has a tall picture (like Sixshot, but thank God that he doesn't have too many names.)

So, are we going to use the new/old format depending on pages or unification? For me, if I had to choose only one, I would choose "depending on pages". Or any better idea/solution is welcome. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:10, 17 December 2009 (EST)

== Redeco names for the same character. ==

It seems to me we could be doing more to highlight the different redeco names of characters. (Freeway Jazz, Buster Optimus Prime). People might be looking for them and there are no shortcuts to finding them. Suggestions: 1) give them a section heading to make them show up in the page's TOC. Also give their original name a section heading, so there would be a "Autobot Jazz" section and a "Freeway Jazz" section. 2) Make "Freeway Jazz" (etc.) redirects. Isn't it possible someone would try typing that in? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:01, 17 December 2009 (EST)
:I [[User:Starfield/Sandbox|sandbox-ed]] what Jazz would look like. See how the different versions are in the TOC? I think it works that way, but it does break up the size classes. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:48, 17 December 2009 (EST)
::I don't like how it mixes the size classes together. Also, if you just put "Freeway Jazz" (including the quotation marks) in the search box it gives a list of pages that have that term on them; so I'm not sure if it is really needed. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:53, 17 December 2009 (EST)PS Maybe the redirects are the best way to go.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:55, 17 December 2009 (EST)
:::It would get crazy fast with someone like movie Bumblebee. I really like the clickable list of the different names in the TOC though. Too bad it is impractical. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:09, 17 December 2009 (EST)
::::This is not really something we should be caring about. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:35, 18 December 2009 (EST)
:::::Call me weird then for finding the redeco names interesting. Each one represents a version of the character with his own slightly different bio card. Seeing them in a list is kind of neat. Here is movie Bumblebee:
{{collist|3|
:::::*Bumblebee
:::::*All Spark-Enhanced Bumblebee
:::::*Stealth Bumblebee
:::::*Plasma Punch Bumblebee
:::::*Rally Rocket Bumblebee
:::::*Recon Bumblebee
:::::*Cannon Bumblebee
:::::*Alliance Bumblebee
:::::*Battlefield Bumblebee
:::::*Ultimate Bumblebee Battle Charged
:::::*Pulse Blast Bumblebee
:::::*Sand Attack Bumblebee
:::::*Bolt Bumblebee
}}
::::: - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:21, 18 December 2009 (EST)

== Images with no descriptions or copyright (mainly Marvel stuff) since the Crash ==

When we crashed in March, we lost the descriptions/copyright info for images we uploaded since July 2008, if I recall correctly. While we've cleaned up a significant portion of them since, most of the Marvel G1 US/UK images have been neglected since March. Might I suggest the people who uploaded those images or the ones who have the know where the images come from/what is going on fix these pics? For example [[Death's Head (G1)|Death's Head]] pics are unfixable by somebody such as myself (who has never read the Marvel stuff), because I don't know the context of what is happening in the panels, or the exact issue the panel is from. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:37, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Talk:Scale

2009-12-12T14:24:44Z

81.108.237.26: /* More for toys out of scale with themselves */ new section

Hi, this is my second (and much larger) personally-originated article. I hope you like it; I certainly had fun writing it.

As I discussed on [[micro-continuities]], I'm keen for people to contribute to the article; I'm not overly precious about it. All I'd ask is that if you really hate something, please discuss it HERE first, rather than outright deleting or extensively re-writing it just yet.

I'd particularly appreciate anyone wanting to add examples from other franchises. It's pretty G1 and Beast Era-centric at the moment. More/better pictures would also be great.

Also, I'd REALLY appreciate any suggestions as to what category(ies) this article should be placed in. I'm really scratching my head here...

Anyway, don't be shy, let the newbie know what you think!

Cheers,
[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

:Wonderful article. I enjoyed it. This is something that's always on my mind when I'm looking at my toys or comics. About the proto-humans in Beast Wars, though: proto-humans were smaller than modern humans (around 4 ft tall). So the scale problems, while still an issue, are not as drastic as they seem. I'm not sure how to integrate that into that section. --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 18:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

::Wow, thanks man. And cheers for the protohumans info. Please feel free to contribute anything, especially pictures! Ta, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

I love the subtle hilarious genius of giving this the Things that Don't Exist category. --[[User:Terrocon Blot|Terrocon Blot]] 05:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
:Uncyclopedia reference FTW! --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 04:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

== Alternators having a problem?==

Pardon me for asking, but what problem is there with the Alternators line? Kiss Players obviously deserves its place, but isn't that line seperate from Alternators? {{unsigned|66.161.202.19}}
:It's just a joke at Kiss Players' expense. And they're not entirely separate; some Alternators toys ended up as Kiss Players toys. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

== JBW Scales? ==

I remember hearign that the JBW TF's were scaled like classic G1 TF's, not the 8' tall BW-era average, but it's been so longsince i saw parts of BW2 that I can't back that up. 
(This of course creates issues with Primal suddenly getting that size int he teamup. which I suppose is a problem in Robotmasters too.) 
Pic of Robotmasters Primal & Prime vs. a 2-shot from Agenda? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

:I wouldn't know; I've never seen more than the teamup movie of BWII and some painful snippets of BWNeo on YouTube. Frankly I loath the little I've seen of these shows, and most Japanese-originated fiction for that matter, although I don't want to force that opinion on anyone. Love the leader-toys though ;-)

:Please feel free to add anything like that if you can verify it, and if accurate please do point out the resulting scale problem with Primal in relation BW and RM. Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

::Such misconceptions were probably caused by the fact that in BWII Most of the Destrons turn into vehicles, the J-Beast Warriors are only G1-Sized if we assume that the Destron's vehicle modes are supposed to be real world scale. They could just be tiny vehicles like in Dawn of Futures Past. Which is probably the most likely, as Lio Convoy has been shown to be the same size as the Lion he scanned, while on the other hand Tasmanian Kid turns into a huge Tasmanian Devil, much like Rattrap turns into a huge rat.

:::But that's inconsistant as well. I did a quick search and found evidence that LioConvoy was about the size of his lion, as you said [http://bigbot.com/beast_wars_2/pictures/cartoon_tv_show/02_White_Lion_Run/], but I also saw an image of Tasmania Kid cradling a tasmanian devil that he scanned in his hands [http://bigbot.com/beast_wars_2/pictures/cartoon_tv_show/04_Lake_Trap/]. Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_devil#Physical_description] places the average length of a Tasmanian devil at 652 mm, which would be over one-fourth the height of an average man. So it's still confusing.-[[User:EricMarrs|EricMarrs]] 23:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
::::Contextually, though I haven't seen the episode, I'm betting that's a baby Tazmanian devil.
::::Sale in JBW is weird. It appears that Lioconvoy was 'real' sized, (about 7 feet tall, and transforms into a normal-sized lion.) while others in hsi crew are ridiculously undersized. By contrast- the Destrons turned into TINY versions of jets and such. The toy scale was (loosely) maintained. Robotmasters is fucked though.
::::I might rephrase the entry to more accurately reflect this contradiction. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

== Mini-Cons ==

The first paragraph on Mini-Con scale bugs me. The Earth-based altmodes have always been pretty clearly intended as small-scale reproductions of actual vehicles, no different from how Waspinator is (theoretically) a large-scale reproduction of an actual wasp. So Sparkplug, for instance, has windows because he's a tiny Lamborghini and Lamborghinis have windows. (A case could be made for the non-Earth-design vehicles, I suppose.) It just seems to be inventing an issue for the sake of having something to question on a subject where there's already plenty going on that's questionable... if anything, Mini-Cons in Armada are one of the few cases of ''consistent'' scale in Transformers. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
:Well, except the weapons. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

: Yeah, I'm not wild about it either. They're not supposed to be having passengers at all ever, and clearly were never intended to... except in ''Cybertron''. (And, well, the SAT, right.) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

::Well, I take your point, but it seems to me that it's still a valid inclusion. Even if Mini-Cons were never ''intended'' to hold passangers (although for that matter, frankly, how often do you see post-Movie characters actually carrying passangers anyway...?), they nevertheless turn into vehicles that ''appear'' to be able to carry people in them but are too small to actually do so. They are, almost by definition, SCALED DOWN representations of (mostly) real vehicles. So feel free to reword the paragraph, but I still think Mini-Cons warrant a reference. That's my two cents, anyway. Ta, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]]

==Question==

Why does Lio Convoy and Primal being the same size in BWII cause a problem. Lio convoy was the same size as a real lion.

==Nanotyrannus?==

You should remove the nanotyrannus caomment since many now believe it's just a young rex.
:Except that when Mainframe created the CGI models for Beast Wars, Nanotyrannus was believed to be a real genus. I always assumed that they had Megatron get his beast mode from scanning Nanotyrannus fossils so he wouldn't completely dwarf the rest of the cast. --[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 20:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:Maybe the same explanation of Nanotyrannus applies to Meg's beast mode scale-he just scanned the fossil of a juvenile T-Rex. [[User:Darktruth|Darktruth]] 23:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

== Scale within Toylines ==

Parts of the paragraph involving the movie toys are very inaccurate, especially the claim that non-Prime or Megatron characters having toys in different classes representing the same body is virtuarlly unprecendeted. If it were just the Legends that were the exception, that would be fine, as the reason for that class was "small versions of the large toys", much the TF-Juniors (same goes for fast-food toys and kabya kits).

The main problem with this is Beast Machines, as the first Megatron (Mega) toy is the same "body" as his TMII form (Ultra), three toys for Cheetor (Mega, Supreme, Deluxe) and Primal (Deluxe, Mega, Supreme), Jetstorm (Deluxe and Ultra), Tankorr (Mega and Basic), and Thrust (Deluxe and Basic). (Yes, the Basics forms of the last two were techinaclly Drones, but the ''Beast Wars Returns'' line released the Basics as the Generals, and the visual difference between General and Drone was some extra paint.) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 20:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== Awsomeness. ==

Hey man love the article. I wish all of wikipedia could be like that, informal and with a bit of humour, instead of being as about as much fun as getting repeatedly kicked in the face. Lauds.

== Movie ==

While not perfect, the movie has avoided many of the scale issues that previous generations have had, and should be mentioned. As with Beast-Era, this entire new kettle of fish is in need of its own section and should probably be added soon. If anyone can point out any scale problems in-movie (not in the toys, though there are many there) please mention them here. -[[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 14:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

* In the movie we are shown the All-Spark compressing itself from a massive cube to a much smaller one, in which a human is easily able to hold and run with it. Isn't it reasonable to suggest that the Transformers, being a product of the All-Spark, would be able to, to some degree, compress or expand themselves in the same fashion?
::Yes, but that's a topic for the [[size changing]] article. While this article does talk about size changing (possibly too much), any discussion that's ''just'' about size changing shouldn't be here. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

== Featured? ==

Any chance of this article becoming a featured article? It contains an enormous ammount of knowledge, and is also witty at the same time. As such, this article could be said to be a perfect example of what this wiki is about. [[User:Tindalos|Tindalos]] 20:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
: Well, as the originator of the article, I'd second that! ;-) I'm enormously chuffed to hear you say that, thanks. [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

:: Ideally, I'd like to see the BW sections edited a bit more, and possibly integrated into the top sections of the article. Currently, the article is partly organized by topic (scale and toys, scale and fiction) and partly by franchise. Also, it needs to be trimmed of discussion of size-changing that is not relevant to scale (with that discussion moved into the size changing article). [[User:JW|JW]] 02:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Hi there [[User:JW|JW]],
::: Your points are valid, but I'd actually argue that the BW stuff ''should'' stay separate. Although there's no massively logical rationale behind this (scale, after all, is scale), I think the fundamental aesthetic differences between the vehicular TFs that dominate the franchise and the animal altmodes of the Beast Era, especially Season 1 of BW (which is mostly what this material covers, since they were the only significant depiction of "real animal" altmodes) are better discussed separately. I know that falls a little bit afoul of the usually meaningless "toasters versus squishies" dualism, but in this case I really think it just''feels right'' as an organisational divide for this particular article.
:::As to the size-changing stuff; I'll have a closer look but I really thing that some discussion of size-changing is inevitably required with a topic concerning scale.
:::Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]] 23 October 2007
Me again, [[User:JW|JW]],

I've had a close look at the article and I really feel that all the discussion of size-changing herein really ''is'' neccessary, and thoroughly relevant. Sorry.
[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]] 26th Oct. 07

:If you think the amount of size-changing discussion currently in the article is about right, I won't quibble much. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

== Metroplex ==

While his "city" mode isn't really shown, Metroplex is about the size of Autobot City in the UK comic ("Space Pirates", to be precise).

[[User:Cliffjumper|Cliffjumper]] 09:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added a short line to indicate this, though I'm buggered if I can work out how to link to Space Pirates properly...I've tried it with an underscore, with a space, and both with and without the exclamation mark, but it keeps redirecting me to a new page. Anyone?

[edit]...aha, fixed it. The Space Pirates article has a picture of 'Plex in robot mode that might be useful for this article too, if the Citybot section was more substantially re-written.

[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 05:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
:The recent changes to this article removed the Space Pirates info about Metroplex and it now once again reads 'almost no fiction even begins to approximate the logical size of a true "city-bot"' - is there some reason why the one instance of a Citybot being shown to a reasonable scale is being omitted? [[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 06:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

== movie scale alert ==
i think there might be one more scale problem in the 2007 transformers movie : when bumblebee shrinks the all spark he holds it fairly easily with one hand and when ladiesman217 takes it he holds it just as easily with two hands[[User:217.43.84.145|217.43.84.145]] 13:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
:Yah, but the All Spark explicitly can change size, so it's hard to argue Bumblebee didn't just shrink it again . . . [[User:JW|JW]] 15:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

== Long Article ==

For people who are tempted to add to this article, please note that it is close to the maximum recommended length of 32kb already. Don't add new stuff unless it's pretty important to the article. New material that is ''just'' jokes will probably get cut again to make room for more substantive stuff. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

== Animated ==

There's nothing in the article about any size inconsistencies that may have cropped up in ''Animated'', so, as the series goes forward, we should probably keep an eye out. Im' guessing the first problems to crop up will involve Prowl, as he's a motorcycle rather than a car or truck. --[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 05:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

:I've noticed a few instances, but they're more "animation company screwups" than any kind of consitent scale issues. Look at Prime from the first episode when Bulkhead is loading an injured Prowl onto his bed. Prime's truck mode is HUGE. That's not a consistent thing, though, so I don't know that' it's worth mentioning outside of the episode's "animation errors" listing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
::Forget Prime. PROWL in robot mode is gigantic in many shots, considering his tiny altmode. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

== minicons ==

i think the gigantion minicons are supposed to be huge because in the episode showing the origin of soundwave and sideways it says that the people turned there planet and THEMSELVES (which would include the minicons on that planet) into giants[[User:81.108.233.59|81.108.233.59]] 17:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:Except they're clearly ''not'', and they're explicitly said to be ''tiny'' to do detail work. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

== Rattrap ==

The article mentions that only Cheetor and Tigatron were seen next to their actual flesh and blood counterparts, but I could have sworn there was a scene where Rattrap was seen next to a real rat (and the real rat was tiny compared to him). In A Better Mousetrap, perhaps? [[User:Excise|Excise]] 14:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
:True. Fixed. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

==Dinosaur Alts==
Dinobot cannot be a Utahraptor OR a Velociraptor. While he IS much too large to be a Velociraptor, Utahraptors are about 7 meters long and 2 meters tall, and he is shown to be shorter than Optimus Primal in beast mode. Additionally, Megatron's Nano T.Rex is not even confirmed as a genuine species, and is 17 feet tall anyway. It's probably wiser to assume the same matters of scaling as with the insects and Rattrap. [[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 07:48, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

==Dreamwave Devastator Pic==
While it's an excellent example of scale problems, it doesn't belong in the Toys section (since it's not a pic of a toy), and in the section where it ''does'' belong, we already have a Dreamwave Menasor pic which illustrates the problem. Unless there's another place to put it where it will fit, it should probably be cut. [[User:JW|JW]] 12:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

==Alternators ''Only'' Toyline to Scale?==
Perhaps I'm missing the intention of the statements in the article, but a couple of times the Alternators are spelled out as the ''only'' exception to the scale difficulties that plague all-that-is-Transformers. The G2 GoBots (later known as Spychangers) were designed to be 1:64 scale, weren't they? Or is there something wonky about their scale I'm missing?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 17:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
:I think if you place RID Hot Shot, Ironhide, and Mirage next to each other, you'll see that they're only ''roughly'' to the same scale. Mirage is big for an Indy car, and Ironhide is a small pickup. "1:64 scale" in this case means "about yay long". [[User:JW|JW]] 17:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, basically in this case it means "Fits most Matchbox/Hotwheels tracks."

==Article cleanup==
This article, with its many many subsections and considerable length, has been bothering me for a while. I think I figured out why: it had sections talking about a type of ''problem'', such as explicit size changing, then it also has sections about various fictions, then it ''also'' has sections talking about a type of ''Transformer'' that suffered from those various problems, thus repeating all the information previously given.

It seems to me it's got to be one or the other -- we either break it down by type of problem, by fiction, or by type of Transformer. It's redundant and sloppy to have it all three ways. Considering how many kinds of Transformers there are and how much media exists, the logical choice is by problem type. That's what I'm shooting for with the most recent edit.

It still needs further cleanup; for example, the city and planet sections should be combined with other instances of an alternate mode implying a different size of robot than is actually shown. When you get down to it, Seaspray has exactly the same type of scale problem as Unicron; the article should reflect that instead of rambling all over the place. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
:The [[Scale#Fictional_scale_.E2.89.88_toy_scale|Fictional scale ≈ toy scale]] section in your rewrite cuts off abruptly mid-sentence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 16:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks, missed that. And sorry I just called you someone else's user name in the Recent Changes list. <:D -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 16:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

==A "scale canon"==

Sorry for this brain-dump, but it's one of the few places I can think of with the collective knowledge to make this work. Most lines are not even remotely in scale within a [[size class]], especially if we're talking about aircraft. However Scout or Legends-class car characters could sit alongside Deluxe or Voyager aircraft, and be in scale. Given the number of size classes in the larger lines, and the plethora of figures in those lines, ultimuately you could concoct one or more "scale canons" per line containing a range of characters which are approximately in scale with each other. Any thoughts? [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 10:12, 23 August 2009 (EDT)

:So the idea would be to list the toys which have relative sizes matching the relative sizes of the characters in fiction? Are you talking about robot mode or vehicle modes, cause I can see arguments for both, but they're not always the same... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:59, 23 August 2009 (EDT)

::If you were going to base their relative sizes on the fiction, then it would make sense to do it based on robot modes, IMO. If it was going to be based on their expected relative sizes in reality (which obviously only works for real-life alt-modes) then it would make sense to do it based on vehicles. [[Special:Contributions/82.41.72.10|82.41.72.10]] 00:48, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

== Nebulans ==

Assuming that Nebulan partnered cars are the same size to Earth cars and that Nebulan partnered jets are the same size as earth jets, wouldn't that make the Nebulans to be different sizes to each other? This is especially apparent for Targetmasters in vehicle mode with their Nebulan partner attached. I assume that Nebulans would not wear a suit of armor the same size as they are (as seen in the eighties comic and cartoon) but a personal mobile suit as depicted in Dreamwave's MTMTE (the Nebulan sits in the torso area) - it beats the Nebulan having to move their legs in impossible ways when transformed as the toys would let us believe. [[Special:Contributions/90.242.193.102|90.242.193.102]] 18:18, 23 August 2009 (EDT)

== More for toys out of scale with themselves ==

Energon Omega Supreme is out of scale with himself, one half of him is a construction crane while the other is a space battleship. Just compare the sizes of the 1-2 person train cab against the multi person battleship bridge. Add to that Devastator from ROTF. One of his arms is a giant crane while the other is a small, um, you know, bulldozer thing that isn't a bulldozer.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 09:24, 12 December 2009 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-05-22T15:22:19Z

81.108.237.26: /* Quotes */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
}}

==So what now?==
{{note|This discussion has been moved to [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2#So what now?]].}}

== Image aspect ratios ==

I notice a lot of ''Animated'' screencaps, like [[:Image:SariLayingDown1.jpg]], are out-of-aspect ratio, which is kinda annoying - neither NTSC (480i, typically 720x480, US/Japan) nor PAL (576i, typically 720x576, UK/Europe/Australia) use square pixels, while computers do. A screencap from a 4:3 NTSC source should really be resized to 640px wide for uploading here, while a screencap from a 4:3 PAL source should be resized to 768px wide. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:39, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Since screen caps usually have to be trimmed of black borders, I'm not going to bugger about trying to get the aspect ratio correct. I just upload whatever my DVD software gives me. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:05, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

== News from Wookieepedia ==

A while back, one of the users here [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:SH_Archive/Site_Partnership_with_TFWiki suggested a partnership] between Wookieepedia and this wiki.
In case you're wondering what happened with that, the ongoing nomination process is [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Official_Friends_of_Wookieepedia/Nominations#TFWiki.net here]. [[User:Silly Dan|Silly Dan]] 22:44, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Awesome! Now, settle this argument - could Death Star transformed as Darth Vader beat Unicron? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:Cool. I think I made a vague overture there at one point specifically about the coverage of Attacktix and that weird Star Wars vs. TF packaging - I understand there have been some direct and less-direct TF references in SW (which I imagine will only continue to crop up, given that the current and incoming generations of SW official content creators are likely to be of the age where they're at least casually aware of TF, if not fans in their own right), so this is probably a pretty reasonable networking opportunity. We can explain to you guys why the Optimus Prime that fought Darth Vader doesn't look like the one you had as a kid, and you can explain to us how the entire thing was totally non-canonical anyway. Heh heh. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:54, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

==Purging redirects==
I've noticed that the recovery process has been used as a good excuse for deleting useless redirects. I'm totally in support of this, and I'd like to figure out what counts as "useless." I used to think the more redirects, the better, since that would increase the chances of good results from people's misspelled or ill-informed searches. But now that we have that auto-drop-down suggestion thing, I've pulled a complete 180. Every redirect just clutters that menu up. To my mind, there are only five justifications for any redirect:
# It's the base version of an otherwise parenthetically-disambiguated set ([[Optimus Prime]])
# It's an alternate official term ([[Rodimus Prime]])
# It's a fan-term that is equally or more prevalent than the official term ([[Big Floating Head]])
# It's an alternate parenthetical that had received notable support in discussion (I think [[Sideways (Armada)]] was heading in that direction before the crash)
# It's a valid alternate spelling/parsing, especially if the auto-drop-down wouldn't naturally correct the user ([[STARS]])
I can't think of any other valid reason for a redirect existing. I bring this up because I've noticed in repairing the S.T.A.R.S. articles that there are both vestigial redirects from past improper capitalization ([[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?|Have the Decepticons Defeated Us Once and For All?]]) and newly-created redirects compensating for a grammatical mistake on Hasbro's part ([[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.|Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers' greatest battle on Earth.]]). I don't think either of those have sufficient reason to exist. What say you? 
- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:38, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:The less redirects, the better, I think. They just clutter up the search suggestion box, thereby getting in the way rather than helping. Talk page redirects should be killed on sight.
:But in this regard, we have Optimus (G1) redirecting to Optimus Prime (G1). Same for other Optimuses and Nemesises and the like. I'm in favour of getting rid of these as well (one such shortened version could stay to redirect to the dismabguation page, but that's it), but I'm not entirely sure. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:46, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::Actually, looking at the auto-drop-down menu results for "Optimus (", it looks like every single series has its own version of that. That strikes me as silly; [[Optimus]] is all we need. But it depends on your approach: I'm taking a guilty-until-proven-innocent view, where redirects are assumed to be deletable unless they can be defended on the grounds stated above. I checked out [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#When should we delete a redirect?|how Wikipedia does it]], and they seem to favor the opposite view, based on the logic that a deleted redirect can cause unforeseen breakages (like if other websites link to the now-defunct redirect). I personally find their arguments unconvincing, but I don't know how other people feel. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:03, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Not to mention it is confusing, like in the case of Nemesis (G1)/Nemesis Prime (G1) - most "Nemesis (" are redirects to their respective Nemesis Prime, but Nemesis (G1) leads to the ship, breaking any sense of consistency. As far as common shortened versions of names go, I think all we need is one that redirects to the disambiguation page. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:58, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Absolutely agreed. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::I believe we need to give a little leeway to those who are even less than a casual fan. Having extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered (Optimus, Soundwave). Some people may just find the search box, type, and hit enter without even taking into account the drop down menu. One thing I think should remain to a point as well are acronyms minus the periods, i.e. GI Joe or STARS. A quick type, enter, and it redirects. I say this especially with GI Joe in mind since we may be getting traffic with the new movie and the JoePedia seems deader than the wikia TF.

:::I agree with Jackpot when it comes to redirects being linked to. I highly doubt that will be a problem. In-wiki we have a great team to fix all links before the page is deleted. In the case of out-wiki links, those who place the most around the net are very unlikely to link to a redirect. Those that do I think are too much of a minority to tip the balance against cleanliness of page numbers. Savvy? :::--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:53, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Good point with the acronyms. I've added it to the list up above. I'm not sure what you mean about the "extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered", though. In the Optimus example, what less-than-casual fan is going to type "Optimus (G1)"? They're just going to type "[[Optimus]]", which will go to the disambig. All those "Optimus (__)" articles still seem completely useless to me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd argue that gramatically correct forms of titles should remain as redirects. I don't want to expect a user to remember that one STARS flyer skimped on an apostrophe or that "Inferno Imprisoned" is actually spelled "Inferno Improsoned". Everything else I agree with you. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:16, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Though both of those would be wrong because it's actually [[Improsoned Inferno]]. I'm not being needlessly nitpicky: It demonstrates the point that I always make a habit of double-checking my links if there's the slightest question about them (especially given how many disambig-pages we have these days). Plus does this mean we should have [[Scorpinok|Scorponok (episode)]] and [[Trasformer|Transformers (Italy)]] pages?
::::::That having been said, I'm not particularly die-hard about this question. The "improsoned" example doesn't bother me that much because it's such a short title and therefore people would likely try to link it from memory. "[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]", on the other hand, is so ridiculously long that I wouldn't expect ''anybody'' to try to use without looking it up first. It certainly took me a while to get comfortable with it, and I'm the S.T.A.R.S. expert here. Plus having the two(!) apostrophe'd redirects adds a level of absurdity to the drop-down, since you can't even see the difference in the limited space.
::::::Incidentally, right before we left Wikia, a feature was implemented that made the drop-down appear every time you typed a double-bracket while editing. I hadn't decided if that was awesome or annoying before it went away, but if it ever comes back, the argument for "correction" redirects will become even weaker, I think.
::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::While I agree about keeping useful redirects like the aforementioned STARS and Imprisoned Inferno, I do want to point out that our visitors are not either minimally knowledged on Transformers or complete retards. Someone with barely any knowledge on Transformers should still be able to find the correct article, if not through the search suggestion boxes, then through disambiguation banners or related pages (like "Energon (cartoon)" for Improsoned Inferno). And I doubt anyone would be annoyed about a tiny bit of searching. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:00, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

::Speaking of the search suggestion box, is it possible to customise its behaviour to give priority to articles ''starting'' with whatever you type in? At the moment, if I type in "Megatron", I get a choice of "All Hail Megatron" issues rather than a choice of actual characters named "Megatron". This makes the suggestion thing less useful in my books, and it'd be better if it gave me a choice of articles with names ''starting'' with Megatron and ''then'' other articles with "Megatron" in the name. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:20, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think the search extension proper allows you to do this in settings, but it could be done by adjusting the code.
:::(You could also make it so redirects didn't show up in the search-suggestion box, which seems much more important to ''me''.)
:::Hh. I just discovered something ''hilarious'' about redirects, I'm gonna make it a new topic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:38, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I vote against the removal of redirects from the search-suggestion box. It would be ridiculous not to be suggested "Rodimus Prime (G1)" when searching for Rodimus because the article's name is "Hot Rod (G1)" with the other identity's name as redirect. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Can we have the search-menu program ignore redirects by default but have an option for exceptions? For instance, maybe there could be a template that we add to redirects that we actually WANT to have show up in the search-menu, like [[Rodimus Prime]]. I know nothing of the programming magic necessary to make this happen, so can someone in the know tell if this is feasible? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::But... what purpose do redirects serve if not to help people find an article? The only ones I'm sparing are ones someone arguably could use for their search? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:38, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
I'm gonna agree with Geewunling here. There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't, and they are useful to show up as suggestions. The way to get that signal to noise ratio better is exactly what he's been doing, purging those redirects that are unlikely to be frequent search terms, and leaving the ones that people are likely to search by.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
: *Psst* "she". [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:49, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::No, no, I already deleted that redirect. "He" is all we have left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Deleting "unworthy" redirects is a rather... violent solution. Even though I advocated it at the beginning of this discussion, I actually do prefer a surgical removal from just the search-menu instead if it's possible. As this discussion has shown, different people have different standards for what counts as worthwhile, and I'd rather see arguments revolve around something as easily changeable as a template than the creation/deletion of whole pages. Plus there's the sheer man-hours factor: My instinct is that more redirects are created by renaming ''badly''-titled articles than because of valid alternates, and therefore it will be more work to cull all the worthless redirects than it will be to modify the good ones for menu-inclusion.
:Plus I had another thought that might circumvent the need for ''any'' redirect-modification: What if typing the name of a redirect made the drop-down show only the actual article? For instance, the word "Rodimus" is in the name of ''four'' different redirects to [[Hot Rod (G1)]]: [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Rodimus Prime (G1)]], [[Hot Rodimus]], and [[New Rodimus]]. For some reason only the last two currently show up in the drop-down when you type "Rodimus", but that's still twice as many as there ought to be. If it just said "Hot Rod (G1)" instead of any of those, then we'd be keeping the drop-down clean without blocking the user's path, plus there would be no need at all to delete, modify, or otherwise discriminate among redirects.
:(Again, I have NO idea if this is programmatically feasible... but it's the best scenario I can envision.)
: - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::''There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't''
::We could have the search function not return redirects, which was the way it behaved on wikia.
::It's not a huge issue for most wikis-- but because we are ''so'' "disambiguated," (almost every major article having multiple disambigs and redirects,) it's kinda a big deal for us.
::So we probably want Scour to edit ''SearchSuggest.php'' so that.
<pre>if($location == 1){

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '%" .$db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)). "%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
} else {

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '". $db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)) ."%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
}</pre>
::We'd probably also want to set <tt>$location = 0;</tt> near the beginning of the file. (Match titles from the front only.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I can't tell what that code does, but from your description it sounds like it would just purge all redirects from the search drop-down. Thing is, so far you're the only one who thinks that's a good idea. I agree with Geewunling and Rosicrucian that at least ''some'' redirects are helpful, since there are so many valid alternate terms. So I've been suggesting middle-ground ideas, but I've got no clue if they can actually be done. What do you think of them? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::When do you need a redirect in a search-suggestion? Searching for "Megatron" will give you a list of pages with disambigs after them. Searching for "Matrix" will give you a list of pages whose title starts with "Matrix." Matrix (Disambiguation) will be the first match because a "(" comes before any letter alphabetically.
::::What redirects do you want in there? "Humans" as well as "Human" You want "Brothers in Armor" (a redirect) to appear in addition to the real page "Brothers in Armor!!"
::::I assume you do have a reason why including redirects in the list of search suggestions would be an idea, an example-case I'm missing. Could you tell me what it is?
::::I mean-- we get 8 suggestions. '''There are more than 8 Optimus Primes'''. At this point I go to the (disambiguation) page, or click RiD Prime at random, then click its disambig link to navigate sideways to the Prime I want.
::::Wikia's search suggest nix'd redirects-- and a lot of times I just used it to to find a page title I knew was "right" rather than a redirect. So if I see the link to "Falcon" on this page is blinking because it's a redirect, I type "Falcon" into the search-suggest box to see what my options are. Having ''any'' redirects there, no matter how well-intentioned is bad. I don't WANT to see "Falcon" as a search-suggestion (it's the #1 match,) because that's a redirect.
::::When exactly is having a redirect in a search suggestion useful? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:57, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::An example has already been brought up: Rodimus Prime. If you type that in and the menu doesn't show redirects, you'll get [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)]] and [[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]], but you WON'T get [[Hot Rod (G1)]], which is most likely what you were looking for. If you want more examples than that, a couple have already jumped to mind, but I hope you'll agree without further persuasion that there are lots of cases like this. Hence my two suggestions: We exclude redirects by default and either 1) have a template we can throw onto valuable redirects so they're not excluded, or 2) make it so the core article actually shows up in the menu even if the word you're typing isn't in its title. Like I also said, I have NO idea if either of those is feasible. But without some intercessory factor like that, I think simply excluding redirects is a little too baby-with-the-bathwater. In the meantime, Geewunling is weeding through dozens of redirects, marking for deletion all of the ones she judges unworthy. I think THAT solution is dismayingly painstaking and severe (even though I suggested it in the first place), but in the absence of a programmatic solution, it might end up being the best. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:04, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Geewunling likes to point out that she thinks a lot of these redirects should be fixed and/or deleted regardless. There's no point in keeping most of them, and they clog up things. I like some of the ideas mentioned here on how to have search suggestion box react on queries to exclude unhelpful redirects, but we should just get rid of a lot of them anyway. Btw, I've been wondering, is it possible to make the search suggestion box a bit longer than it currently is? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:30, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Sorry, I didn't mean to disparage your efforts; I appreciate orderliness as much as anyone, and it's pleasing to see useless redirects vanish. By all means, as long as you have the gumption for it, knock yourself out. What's "dismaying" about it to me, the more I think about it, is the idea of it becoming our official solution to the problem of a cluttered search menu. That's a lot of painstaking work to put on the shoulders of the wiki in general, especially since we're never going to see the end of useless redirects as the wiki grows. And the thing is, if we can find a programmatic solution for the search-menu issue, then the only area where redirects will really "clog up things" the annoying realm of double-redirects, which have been popping up at a very manageable rate so far. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Double redirects are easy-- have the 'bot fix 'em.
::::::::And ''thank you'' Jackpot, "Rodimus Prime (G1)" is a good example of a time when redirects in search boxes would be useful-- my imagination failed me.
::::::::Here's the thing-- the thing you're suggesting... hiding all redirects except ones we flag in-page is... not possible, at least not without a fundamental change to the core functionality of the wiki, which is code I wouldn't touch with a ten foot laser pole. The "page_is_redirect" flag is a fundamental yes-no boolean database field associated with the page entry. We can ''reference'' that, but turning it into something squishier like "is redirect, or is a page we like" sounds nightmarish. I guess ''maybe'' you could totally rewrite the database query to use a join that tests against a category id... or more likely a category name that would be... ugh, it's giving me a headache just ''thinking'' about it... you'd be transforming a light ajax query that might be performed 10 times when you're typing a single word into an incredibly ''heavy'' cross-referencing string-match join query-- it's the difference between using a cup-holder and getting out of the car to fetch your drink from the trunk every time you want to take a sip. ...not to mention you'd be making core wiki functionality dependent on proprietary hacks-- in the service of a function that's supposed to be a minor ''enhancement.''
::::::::Let me sketch another scenario for you.
::::::::#I want Rodimus Prime! I type him in the search box.
::::::::#I see several results, none of which looks like the one I want. Rather than "Rodimus (disambiguation)" I clock "Rodimus (Animated)," just ot be difficult.
::::::::#This isn't the guy I want! Oh look, there's a link at the top-- "Other people called Rodimus Prime..." Hey, it's a list! And I want the first one on it!
::::::::You know-- that's assuming that the person clicks on the search-suggest. Most people ''don't''. If they click "Search" it'll come up just liek ti always does. The suggest function is just a tiny helper, completely seperate from actual searching.
::::::::And finally (and this is the real thing) '''the search suggest function has been entirely replaced in the new version of MediaWiki.''' I don't know what's different about the new version, but I think it's stupid to sink too much time into making this version perfect. Slap it a few times to make it behave more like we want, but hold off on major changes until the upgrade.
::::::::And finally, I agree with Jackpot-- purging redirects (which may be ''linked to'' from off-site) in order to make the "search suggest" function work neater is incredibly wrong-headed. Purge redirects if you want-- we certainly need to get rid of some... but '''that should not be your reason'''.
::::::::We deleted the "Nest" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect yesterday. Because apparently no one will ''ever'' search for "Nest." This is out of control. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::There is now a "NEST" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect and "NEST" comes up in the search box when you type "nest". And I click on the suggested list all the time. I think the only real improvement necessary is to assume that the what you are typing is the first word of the article. (so that "All Hail Megatron" doesn't come up when you type "Megatron") - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:27, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm not feeling my work trivialized; most of the things you have said so far count as compliments to me. I'm merely stating what I believe to be the right solution for practical reasons. My current reasoning is that once we have this redirect purging done, it is easier to prevent in the future. A lot of our current redirects to me seem the result of misspellings, disagreements and/or need for an identifier, mostly from a time when we didn't have that awesome search suggestion thing and didn't have a bot to change links for us. I figure that with a clean slate and slightly better organization (like, mark the damn talk page redirect for deletion once you've moved a page), we can prevent the ridicilousness of redirects we currently have. And I disagree with Starfield's suggestion. While we need something for the Megatron search "problem", I have gotten a lot of redirects deleted on the basis that a later word in the query gets you the correct suggestion. Most recent example would be the "Headmasters" redirects to "The Headmasters" articles. But also in case of titles like all the doctors we have, just a correct combination of symbols anywhere should get you the proper suggestions. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::...crap, I forgot searches were case-insensitive, aren't they, even if the actual page ''links'' aren't. Bitchy complaint withdrawn.
::::::::::And yeah, it's annoying as fuck to see page-after-page of redirect-flagging and deleting every time I check the wiki... but it's not exactly ''unneeded'', and a bunch of that stems from imprort and page recovery, stuff that had moved etc... we're just getting it all at once and clearing out 2 years of accumulated deadwood all at once. I have no problem with that-- Deadwood should be cleared. As long as we're doing it for the right reasons. The volume will level off eventually. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:52, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::Thank you, Derik, for explaining why my idea #1 won't work. What about #2? Can the search-suggest, in the process of not displaying redirects, recognize ''where'' each redirect is going and display those pages in the menu too? As I said when I first suggested it, I actually think that's the BEST option of all. Based on your explanation, I'm guessing it's not feasible, but since you only mentioned my first idea, I want to be extra-sure no options are being dismissed out of hand.
:::::::::I appreciate your point about the new MediaWiki, but given what happened the last time it was installed, do you really think we'll try again in the remotely near future? My instinct is that it's too far off to be a factor worth consideration. Besides, maybe we can find out right now if the whole point is moot or not. Do we know of any wikis that are using the new software?
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

The last abortive attempt at a MediaWiki upgrade should not be taken as by any means typical, nor as an example of best practices performing such an upgrade. It can be done better, we know ''how'' to do it better, and the only reason it ''wasn't'' done better is because it was done by people other than the ones we generally trust with such things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:16, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

== Page load issues ==
{{see|Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2}}

==Wikia credits in redirects==
I just discovered this... it looks liek all of our redirects have wikia credits in the code. They don't show up normally, but hit the edit button, and there they all are. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 01:33, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:I noticed this as well, and pointed it out over on the Damage Control Central section.... What I'm curious about is, is there any way for a bot to seek and destroy these? Because there's no way to see them unless you hit the edit button... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 01:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
::I'm wondering if, when we move servers, we can run the same script we used when moving here in order to purge all Wikia links. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:47, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I think we're gonna run a SQL database import when we move servers- so probably not.
:::I (finally) have a complete list of all wiki pages (as of about a week ago) including redirects. I'll rig my de-wikia-er script over the redirects tonight as soon as Big Sweep 2.0 is done-- at least on the 4000-odd redirects in the name namespace. (2.0 does about 1/3 of what I'd hoped it would... the regex's were just breaking my fucking balls, so I resigned myself to taking baby steps. Right now it's fixing one sort of in-page template and fixing all the escaped HTML-- so stuff will at least start ''looking'' more right, even if it's not properly template'd.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:21, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Icons on external links ==

Derik is experimenting with sticking icons on the external links for common external link sites (both for branding, and because it lets you visually scan the links without reading them-- "I want the profile-- NTFA!") These icons require CSS3, and I THINK they work on all modern browsers... but I really dont' care because they fail silently (creating no problems) if they don't. These icons should ''only'' show up in the External Link section-- I'm worried they might screw up layouts elsewhere.

If you hate it, think it could be improved, or just want a site added- let me know. The community can feel free to vote to toss it out if it's annoying... I just thought it was worth trying. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:12, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Epnav working? ==

I remember ''someone'' complaining that our episode navigation was broken when we first did crash recovery. Is that still the case?

(Let's pretend that this inquiry is NOT related to me going through goggle analytics and realizing, to my horror, what % of page traffic passes through those previous/next links.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:06, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:I have no idea about the previous possible issues, but I'll point out here that some articles with epnavs converted so they look right, but when you edit them you'll see the epnav sectiosn were just converted to HTML equivalents of our epnav templates. I don't know if this is a problem, but I've placed a bookworm 2 on pages where I have found them regardless. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:40, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:Interrobang fixed any issues with that a couple of days ago, I think. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:14, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

== Project: ==

For whatever reason, links to [[Project: Transtector]] (see [[Japanese Self Defense Core]] and [[Minerva]]) are automagically translated into links to "Transformers Wiki:Transtector". I'm thinking that's probably not the intended result. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:44, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:Seems to be a kludge to redirect links to wikiprojects.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Blue boxes ==

Not sure where else to ask this question: Is there a reason the blue boxes (stub, coming soon, etc) don't have right hand borders? Or is this just something wonky with my computer? This has bothered me for some time, just thought it would be a good time to fix this (if it isn't just me) while all the other corrections are being made post-disaster.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:44, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:Better suited for the community portal. The main page discussion is specifically for the main page itself. I've moved your question over.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:50, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:Are you using IE 7? I lose the right-hand side of the stub box in that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:04, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Orphaned pages ==

Now that things are starting to get in order, I've started my work on the orphaned page list again. I've noticed something odd. It seems there are a bunch of pages with special characters on the orphaned pages listing that are obviously not orphaned. It mostly seems to be Japanese voice actors and such. If you go to the pages and click the "What links here" button, there are pages linking to it.

At first I thought maybe it was an old list, but since then I have integrated in other orphaned pages and the list does continue update. The question is can we even do anything about this due to the automation? I really would like to get that list down at least to one page. Orphaned pages annoy me.--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 17:12, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:While I have no idea how to fix this, it seems like these special character pages have acquired some weird kind of duplicates. For example, type "rmun" into the search box, and the dropdown menu gives you two different "[[Jörmungandr]]" articles, apparently with the same name but using different URLs for the special characters: "Jo%CC%88rmungandr" and "J%C3%B6rmungandr". Wiki considers the former URL to be an orphaned article and the latter one to be "correct", but both lead to the same article, no Wiki redirects or nothing. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 17:38, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::I have some ideas about fixing the problem, but I'd rather set up a test server to try them on before doing them on the main site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:41, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::FYI: [[Professor Gō]] has two entries in [[:Category:Scientists|Category sections]]. One is real (and filed under "G") and one is messed up (and filed under "P"). It isn't a redirect, it is some kind of ghost. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I've also noticed that our page count on the Main Page seems to be in a state of flux. It gets up higher and then lowers. I wonder if this is due to these "duplicate" pages sometimes getting counted and other times not. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 10:42, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I think I am the fault of that. I'm not sure if it goes for all instances, but at least when I put the delete template on a redirect, it suddenly counts as a "page". Wait until someone has removed those pages marked for deletion - the count will lower again. Then wait for me to mark a few more and the page count will go up again. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 11:02, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

== Comics copyright ==

Right now, the comiccover template states that:
:''This image is the cover of a single issue of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist who produced this cover.''
...and similarly, the comicinterior template says:
:''This image is a panel or sequence of panels of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist and/or writer who produced this issue.''

Thing is, that's inaccurate in significant part - AIUI, Hasbro Transformers comic licencees have to surrender the copyrights on material published in a TF comic to Hasbro... with certain exceptions - primarily for our purposes, the publisher logos and publisher-owned characters. That's why Marvel went to the trouble of debuting Circuit Breaker and Death's Head (and others? Not counting issue 3 of the Marvel US series with long-established Spider-Man, Nick Fury, etc; of course) outside of their TF comics, so that they would retain the rights; and why Titan & IDW can reprint Marvel issues (although IDW seem to have a *lot* more trouble getting the rights to reprint the Marvel-owned stuff than Titan did).

Does anyone know enough of the details to write up versions of the templates suitable for Marvel US, Marvel UK, IDW, etc? [DW is more complicated, since their G1 ongoing and WW v3 fell into the black hole of their bankruptcy, when their earlier, nominally completed, stuff didn't] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

== Moved talk pages ==

There should really be an option to delete the old talk page after it is moved instead of creating a redirect. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:20, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

==DEFAULSORT problem?==
Several of the entries in the [[:Category:Voice actors|voice actors category]] are listed both under their surname and their first name. These appear to be the actors with some accent in their name: [[Ireneusz Załóg]], [[Márcio Seixas]], [[Maurício Berger]] and [[Willi Röbke]]. Having accents, but not having this problem are [[Fátima Noya]] (but that's not DEFAULTSORTed), [[José Santacruz]] and [[José Sant'anna]]. Apparently, there's some problem DEFAULTSORT has with some of the accented vowels ([é] does work, [á], [ó], [í] and [ö] don't). Can this problem be solved? -- [[User:Tupka86|Tupka86]] 09:06, 18 April 2009 (EDT)
:It's related to the [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Damage_Control_Central#Macron_issues|Macron issue mentioned here]]. Once we fix that, the listing under their first name will disappear. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:07, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Alt Mode Header Pictures? ==

So, this is a pretty big suggestion, but it struck me that a nice addition to the vast majority of character pages would be, at the top of the page just below the character image, another image of them in their alt mode. I realize that some of the character images already have both representations in them, but plenty of pages (I was at [[Shrapnel_(G1)|Shrapnel]] when the idea hit me) don't even have a single visual representation of a Transformer's altmode!

I realize (or at least suspect) that this would be quite the undertaking, given that it would mean a change of the site's format standard, but it's something that I think would genuinely contribute to the overall quality of this wiki. An altmode is just as much a part of who a Transformer is, after all, and a lot of character intros don't reflect that enough. Hell, I've also wondered why we don't have a section right before "Fiction" called "Altmode(s)."

Please consider and respond, because I really think this is a good idea (and sort of an obvious one, too), but it's also a very big idea, and very big ideas tend to be retarded ideas incognito (especially if said ideas seem obvious). Tell other people to weigh in on this too! Preferably the people in charge.

[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 16:32, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

:Usually, we try to include their (fiction-specific) alternate modes in relevant fiction sections. We don't normally include them as part of the main image because some of the more popular characters have had too many vehicle modes, and often, the main pictures we use up top never had an accompanying vehicle mode image. Personally, I prefer consistency in images so I would rather have, say, an image of Optimus Prime and his vehicle mode having been drawn by the same artist in the same style for the same project, rather than from two entirely different pieces of art. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:26, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:Whenever I make a mainpic image, I include the altmode if there is one. (See [[Galvatron II]], [[Soundwave (Cybertron)]], [[Fastlane]], [[Flame (UK comic)]], and [[Cog (G1)]]. I even did one for a subsection, [[Optimus Primal#Cybertron comic]].) That's the way I personally prefer to see the idea executed, and it certainly doesn't require a change to the format of the wiki. You're not the first person to bring the idea up, so I'm kind of surprised I've never seen anyone but myself actually ''do'' it. I don't think it should ever be considered a ''requirement'' for a page, but I do consider it a preferred addition. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:18, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think it'd be ''nice'' for a lot of characters... but in many cases it simply doesn't exist, or it'd look awkward. Look at the main image on [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], there simply ''is'' no vehicle mode art to match that beautiful body shot. And how do you present it? Verrtically? That'd push the dfirst section ''way'' down in most cases (it's already pushed down on most articles) whereas horizontally is unworkable for a bunch of other reasons.
::The mainpics seem to represent a sort of compromise... even if the character has has multiple incarnations, they all presumably look more-or-less like their original robot mode-- even if the vehicle changes wildly.
::And fundamentally-- I think you'd have people throwing fits if you squeezed an irrelevant Cheetah into [[Cheetor (BW)]]'s top section instead of his other robot modes. The beast mode is so... secondary. If we were gonna wedge more visuals into the main pics, vehicle modes would ''not'' be out first pic in many cases. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Cover artists ==

Anyone got a list of cover artists, especially for the Marvel US G1 series? I'm trying to fill our the image description pages for those right now, and I'm being hampered by the lack of info on that score. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
: I don't know of any pre-existing list. Some I can tell by the style, some I only can guess at due to the signature, and the rest who knows. They didn't credit those things back then beyond the signature, so... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::Well, most of the issue pages appear to have the artists listed (albeit buried at the bottom of the page...), and I've just found [http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/transfor.htm this page], so I've been filling them in.
::One slightly problematic one though - [[:Image:MarvelUS-62.jpg|Marvel US #62]]. There's two signatures, but the only intelligible one is "Rod Ramos" (Rodney Ramos, who as far as I'm aware works mostly as an inker), and he's given as the artist on the issue page. The current image-page description lists Geoff Senior as the artist, and I can believe it - but I'm not 100% sure, and he inked himself on the interiors. Can anyone confirm? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:02, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Anti-troll ==

After another you-know-who rampage earlier, whatever happened to blacklisting "Detour" and "Fuck" from being used in page & user names, and requiring autoconfirmed priviliges to upload files? Was that a casualty of the Big Crash? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
:I think plans to upgrade/add plugins to the software have been put on hold while the cleanup too place and we got ready for moving to a new host (how far away are we from setting a date for that anyway?). Perhaps it's time to revisit installing the title blacklist plugin? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Advertising Idea ==

So, I came up with a fun idea for advertising the wiki IRL. I decided to make an Autobot propaganda poster with the TFWiki.net watermark that people could print out and post in the colleges or whatever nerdy hangouts they use. I've uploaded it to my Photobucket account, so have a look and let me know what you think of it: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/Semysane/TFWiki%20Ads/OptimusPropaganda01-Beta.png This is just a test to see if I could make it not look like crap; it's still a work in progress (ie: still crap). If a more talented person wants to have a go at making a better one, go at it. BTW, the Ancient Autobot text there says "Till All Are One" -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 22:20, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:I think it looks pretty good. Certainly in very eye-catching colours. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:30, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
::Thank you! I'm thinking of making a Decepticon one as well. Any ideas on a slogan for that one? The Cons don't have many awesome ones like Till All Are One. "Transform and Rise Up" maybe? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:56, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> ==

I've made an alteration to <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> that's going to start tracking how ''long'' (in months) these articles have lacked main pictures for. In theory this'll (eventually) give us a way to triage these neglected articles. In practice, the dates are starting from ''now'', so there's gonna be a whole mess of articles with '0' months. It'll sort itself out over time.

This depends on me running a maintenece program every couple of weeks FYI, that replaces all instances of <nowiki>{{mainpic}} with {{mainpic|date}}</nowiki>. We'll see how ''that'' works. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:58, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Marvel G2 issues ==

The G2 comic pages are listed under story titles (e.g., [[Dark Shadows!]] from G2 #11), but backup stories (in the case of G2 #11, "Tales of Earth Part Eight") are listed on the same pages.

Shouldn't the pages either be moved to a page named after the issue, the way the current UK Titan series appears to be treated, or else split along story lines? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:05, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|letters=|help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-05-22T15:08:25Z

81.108.237.26: /* Quotes */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
}}

==So what now?==
{{note|This discussion has been moved to [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2#So what now?]].}}

== Image aspect ratios ==

I notice a lot of ''Animated'' screencaps, like [[:Image:SariLayingDown1.jpg]], are out-of-aspect ratio, which is kinda annoying - neither NTSC (480i, typically 720x480, US/Japan) nor PAL (576i, typically 720x576, UK/Europe/Australia) use square pixels, while computers do. A screencap from a 4:3 NTSC source should really be resized to 640px wide for uploading here, while a screencap from a 4:3 PAL source should be resized to 768px wide. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:39, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Since screen caps usually have to be trimmed of black borders, I'm not going to bugger about trying to get the aspect ratio correct. I just upload whatever my DVD software gives me. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:05, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

== News from Wookieepedia ==

A while back, one of the users here [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:SH_Archive/Site_Partnership_with_TFWiki suggested a partnership] between Wookieepedia and this wiki.
In case you're wondering what happened with that, the ongoing nomination process is [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Official_Friends_of_Wookieepedia/Nominations#TFWiki.net here]. [[User:Silly Dan|Silly Dan]] 22:44, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Awesome! Now, settle this argument - could Death Star transformed as Darth Vader beat Unicron? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:Cool. I think I made a vague overture there at one point specifically about the coverage of Attacktix and that weird Star Wars vs. TF packaging - I understand there have been some direct and less-direct TF references in SW (which I imagine will only continue to crop up, given that the current and incoming generations of SW official content creators are likely to be of the age where they're at least casually aware of TF, if not fans in their own right), so this is probably a pretty reasonable networking opportunity. We can explain to you guys why the Optimus Prime that fought Darth Vader doesn't look like the one you had as a kid, and you can explain to us how the entire thing was totally non-canonical anyway. Heh heh. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:54, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

==Purging redirects==
I've noticed that the recovery process has been used as a good excuse for deleting useless redirects. I'm totally in support of this, and I'd like to figure out what counts as "useless." I used to think the more redirects, the better, since that would increase the chances of good results from people's misspelled or ill-informed searches. But now that we have that auto-drop-down suggestion thing, I've pulled a complete 180. Every redirect just clutters that menu up. To my mind, there are only five justifications for any redirect:
# It's the base version of an otherwise parenthetically-disambiguated set ([[Optimus Prime]])
# It's an alternate official term ([[Rodimus Prime]])
# It's a fan-term that is equally or more prevalent than the official term ([[Big Floating Head]])
# It's an alternate parenthetical that had received notable support in discussion (I think [[Sideways (Armada)]] was heading in that direction before the crash)
# It's a valid alternate spelling/parsing, especially if the auto-drop-down wouldn't naturally correct the user ([[STARS]])
I can't think of any other valid reason for a redirect existing. I bring this up because I've noticed in repairing the S.T.A.R.S. articles that there are both vestigial redirects from past improper capitalization ([[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?|Have the Decepticons Defeated Us Once and For All?]]) and newly-created redirects compensating for a grammatical mistake on Hasbro's part ([[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.|Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers' greatest battle on Earth.]]). I don't think either of those have sufficient reason to exist. What say you? 
- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:38, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:The less redirects, the better, I think. They just clutter up the search suggestion box, thereby getting in the way rather than helping. Talk page redirects should be killed on sight.
:But in this regard, we have Optimus (G1) redirecting to Optimus Prime (G1). Same for other Optimuses and Nemesises and the like. I'm in favour of getting rid of these as well (one such shortened version could stay to redirect to the dismabguation page, but that's it), but I'm not entirely sure. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:46, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::Actually, looking at the auto-drop-down menu results for "Optimus (", it looks like every single series has its own version of that. That strikes me as silly; [[Optimus]] is all we need. But it depends on your approach: I'm taking a guilty-until-proven-innocent view, where redirects are assumed to be deletable unless they can be defended on the grounds stated above. I checked out [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#When should we delete a redirect?|how Wikipedia does it]], and they seem to favor the opposite view, based on the logic that a deleted redirect can cause unforeseen breakages (like if other websites link to the now-defunct redirect). I personally find their arguments unconvincing, but I don't know how other people feel. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:03, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Not to mention it is confusing, like in the case of Nemesis (G1)/Nemesis Prime (G1) - most "Nemesis (" are redirects to their respective Nemesis Prime, but Nemesis (G1) leads to the ship, breaking any sense of consistency. As far as common shortened versions of names go, I think all we need is one that redirects to the disambiguation page. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:58, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Absolutely agreed. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::I believe we need to give a little leeway to those who are even less than a casual fan. Having extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered (Optimus, Soundwave). Some people may just find the search box, type, and hit enter without even taking into account the drop down menu. One thing I think should remain to a point as well are acronyms minus the periods, i.e. GI Joe or STARS. A quick type, enter, and it redirects. I say this especially with GI Joe in mind since we may be getting traffic with the new movie and the JoePedia seems deader than the wikia TF.

:::I agree with Jackpot when it comes to redirects being linked to. I highly doubt that will be a problem. In-wiki we have a great team to fix all links before the page is deleted. In the case of out-wiki links, those who place the most around the net are very unlikely to link to a redirect. Those that do I think are too much of a minority to tip the balance against cleanliness of page numbers. Savvy? :::--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:53, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Good point with the acronyms. I've added it to the list up above. I'm not sure what you mean about the "extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered", though. In the Optimus example, what less-than-casual fan is going to type "Optimus (G1)"? They're just going to type "[[Optimus]]", which will go to the disambig. All those "Optimus (__)" articles still seem completely useless to me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd argue that gramatically correct forms of titles should remain as redirects. I don't want to expect a user to remember that one STARS flyer skimped on an apostrophe or that "Inferno Imprisoned" is actually spelled "Inferno Improsoned". Everything else I agree with you. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:16, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Though both of those would be wrong because it's actually [[Improsoned Inferno]]. I'm not being needlessly nitpicky: It demonstrates the point that I always make a habit of double-checking my links if there's the slightest question about them (especially given how many disambig-pages we have these days). Plus does this mean we should have [[Scorpinok|Scorponok (episode)]] and [[Trasformer|Transformers (Italy)]] pages?
::::::That having been said, I'm not particularly die-hard about this question. The "improsoned" example doesn't bother me that much because it's such a short title and therefore people would likely try to link it from memory. "[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]", on the other hand, is so ridiculously long that I wouldn't expect ''anybody'' to try to use without looking it up first. It certainly took me a while to get comfortable with it, and I'm the S.T.A.R.S. expert here. Plus having the two(!) apostrophe'd redirects adds a level of absurdity to the drop-down, since you can't even see the difference in the limited space.
::::::Incidentally, right before we left Wikia, a feature was implemented that made the drop-down appear every time you typed a double-bracket while editing. I hadn't decided if that was awesome or annoying before it went away, but if it ever comes back, the argument for "correction" redirects will become even weaker, I think.
::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::While I agree about keeping useful redirects like the aforementioned STARS and Imprisoned Inferno, I do want to point out that our visitors are not either minimally knowledged on Transformers or complete retards. Someone with barely any knowledge on Transformers should still be able to find the correct article, if not through the search suggestion boxes, then through disambiguation banners or related pages (like "Energon (cartoon)" for Improsoned Inferno). And I doubt anyone would be annoyed about a tiny bit of searching. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:00, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

::Speaking of the search suggestion box, is it possible to customise its behaviour to give priority to articles ''starting'' with whatever you type in? At the moment, if I type in "Megatron", I get a choice of "All Hail Megatron" issues rather than a choice of actual characters named "Megatron". This makes the suggestion thing less useful in my books, and it'd be better if it gave me a choice of articles with names ''starting'' with Megatron and ''then'' other articles with "Megatron" in the name. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:20, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think the search extension proper allows you to do this in settings, but it could be done by adjusting the code.
:::(You could also make it so redirects didn't show up in the search-suggestion box, which seems much more important to ''me''.)
:::Hh. I just discovered something ''hilarious'' about redirects, I'm gonna make it a new topic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:38, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I vote against the removal of redirects from the search-suggestion box. It would be ridiculous not to be suggested "Rodimus Prime (G1)" when searching for Rodimus because the article's name is "Hot Rod (G1)" with the other identity's name as redirect. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Can we have the search-menu program ignore redirects by default but have an option for exceptions? For instance, maybe there could be a template that we add to redirects that we actually WANT to have show up in the search-menu, like [[Rodimus Prime]]. I know nothing of the programming magic necessary to make this happen, so can someone in the know tell if this is feasible? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::But... what purpose do redirects serve if not to help people find an article? The only ones I'm sparing are ones someone arguably could use for their search? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:38, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
I'm gonna agree with Geewunling here. There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't, and they are useful to show up as suggestions. The way to get that signal to noise ratio better is exactly what he's been doing, purging those redirects that are unlikely to be frequent search terms, and leaving the ones that people are likely to search by.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
: *Psst* "she". [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:49, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::No, no, I already deleted that redirect. "He" is all we have left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Deleting "unworthy" redirects is a rather... violent solution. Even though I advocated it at the beginning of this discussion, I actually do prefer a surgical removal from just the search-menu instead if it's possible. As this discussion has shown, different people have different standards for what counts as worthwhile, and I'd rather see arguments revolve around something as easily changeable as a template than the creation/deletion of whole pages. Plus there's the sheer man-hours factor: My instinct is that more redirects are created by renaming ''badly''-titled articles than because of valid alternates, and therefore it will be more work to cull all the worthless redirects than it will be to modify the good ones for menu-inclusion.
:Plus I had another thought that might circumvent the need for ''any'' redirect-modification: What if typing the name of a redirect made the drop-down show only the actual article? For instance, the word "Rodimus" is in the name of ''four'' different redirects to [[Hot Rod (G1)]]: [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Rodimus Prime (G1)]], [[Hot Rodimus]], and [[New Rodimus]]. For some reason only the last two currently show up in the drop-down when you type "Rodimus", but that's still twice as many as there ought to be. If it just said "Hot Rod (G1)" instead of any of those, then we'd be keeping the drop-down clean without blocking the user's path, plus there would be no need at all to delete, modify, or otherwise discriminate among redirects.
:(Again, I have NO idea if this is programmatically feasible... but it's the best scenario I can envision.)
: - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::''There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't''
::We could have the search function not return redirects, which was the way it behaved on wikia.
::It's not a huge issue for most wikis-- but because we are ''so'' "disambiguated," (almost every major article having multiple disambigs and redirects,) it's kinda a big deal for us.
::So we probably want Scour to edit ''SearchSuggest.php'' so that.
<pre>if($location == 1){

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '%" .$db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)). "%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
} else {

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '". $db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)) ."%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
}</pre>
::We'd probably also want to set <tt>$location = 0;</tt> near the beginning of the file. (Match titles from the front only.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I can't tell what that code does, but from your description it sounds like it would just purge all redirects from the search drop-down. Thing is, so far you're the only one who thinks that's a good idea. I agree with Geewunling and Rosicrucian that at least ''some'' redirects are helpful, since there are so many valid alternate terms. So I've been suggesting middle-ground ideas, but I've got no clue if they can actually be done. What do you think of them? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::When do you need a redirect in a search-suggestion? Searching for "Megatron" will give you a list of pages with disambigs after them. Searching for "Matrix" will give you a list of pages whose title starts with "Matrix." Matrix (Disambiguation) will be the first match because a "(" comes before any letter alphabetically.
::::What redirects do you want in there? "Humans" as well as "Human" You want "Brothers in Armor" (a redirect) to appear in addition to the real page "Brothers in Armor!!"
::::I assume you do have a reason why including redirects in the list of search suggestions would be an idea, an example-case I'm missing. Could you tell me what it is?
::::I mean-- we get 8 suggestions. '''There are more than 8 Optimus Primes'''. At this point I go to the (disambiguation) page, or click RiD Prime at random, then click its disambig link to navigate sideways to the Prime I want.
::::Wikia's search suggest nix'd redirects-- and a lot of times I just used it to to find a page title I knew was "right" rather than a redirect. So if I see the link to "Falcon" on this page is blinking because it's a redirect, I type "Falcon" into the search-suggest box to see what my options are. Having ''any'' redirects there, no matter how well-intentioned is bad. I don't WANT to see "Falcon" as a search-suggestion (it's the #1 match,) because that's a redirect.
::::When exactly is having a redirect in a search suggestion useful? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:57, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::An example has already been brought up: Rodimus Prime. If you type that in and the menu doesn't show redirects, you'll get [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)]] and [[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]], but you WON'T get [[Hot Rod (G1)]], which is most likely what you were looking for. If you want more examples than that, a couple have already jumped to mind, but I hope you'll agree without further persuasion that there are lots of cases like this. Hence my two suggestions: We exclude redirects by default and either 1) have a template we can throw onto valuable redirects so they're not excluded, or 2) make it so the core article actually shows up in the menu even if the word you're typing isn't in its title. Like I also said, I have NO idea if either of those is feasible. But without some intercessory factor like that, I think simply excluding redirects is a little too baby-with-the-bathwater. In the meantime, Geewunling is weeding through dozens of redirects, marking for deletion all of the ones she judges unworthy. I think THAT solution is dismayingly painstaking and severe (even though I suggested it in the first place), but in the absence of a programmatic solution, it might end up being the best. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:04, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Geewunling likes to point out that she thinks a lot of these redirects should be fixed and/or deleted regardless. There's no point in keeping most of them, and they clog up things. I like some of the ideas mentioned here on how to have search suggestion box react on queries to exclude unhelpful redirects, but we should just get rid of a lot of them anyway. Btw, I've been wondering, is it possible to make the search suggestion box a bit longer than it currently is? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:30, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Sorry, I didn't mean to disparage your efforts; I appreciate orderliness as much as anyone, and it's pleasing to see useless redirects vanish. By all means, as long as you have the gumption for it, knock yourself out. What's "dismaying" about it to me, the more I think about it, is the idea of it becoming our official solution to the problem of a cluttered search menu. That's a lot of painstaking work to put on the shoulders of the wiki in general, especially since we're never going to see the end of useless redirects as the wiki grows. And the thing is, if we can find a programmatic solution for the search-menu issue, then the only area where redirects will really "clog up things" the annoying realm of double-redirects, which have been popping up at a very manageable rate so far. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Double redirects are easy-- have the 'bot fix 'em.
::::::::And ''thank you'' Jackpot, "Rodimus Prime (G1)" is a good example of a time when redirects in search boxes would be useful-- my imagination failed me.
::::::::Here's the thing-- the thing you're suggesting... hiding all redirects except ones we flag in-page is... not possible, at least not without a fundamental change to the core functionality of the wiki, which is code I wouldn't touch with a ten foot laser pole. The "page_is_redirect" flag is a fundamental yes-no boolean database field associated with the page entry. We can ''reference'' that, but turning it into something squishier like "is redirect, or is a page we like" sounds nightmarish. I guess ''maybe'' you could totally rewrite the database query to use a join that tests against a category id... or more likely a category name that would be... ugh, it's giving me a headache just ''thinking'' about it... you'd be transforming a light ajax query that might be performed 10 times when you're typing a single word into an incredibly ''heavy'' cross-referencing string-match join query-- it's the difference between using a cup-holder and getting out of the car to fetch your drink from the trunk every time you want to take a sip. ...not to mention you'd be making core wiki functionality dependent on proprietary hacks-- in the service of a function that's supposed to be a minor ''enhancement.''
::::::::Let me sketch another scenario for you.
::::::::#I want Rodimus Prime! I type him in the search box.
::::::::#I see several results, none of which looks like the one I want. Rather than "Rodimus (disambiguation)" I clock "Rodimus (Animated)," just ot be difficult.
::::::::#This isn't the guy I want! Oh look, there's a link at the top-- "Other people called Rodimus Prime..." Hey, it's a list! And I want the first one on it!
::::::::You know-- that's assuming that the person clicks on the search-suggest. Most people ''don't''. If they click "Search" it'll come up just liek ti always does. The suggest function is just a tiny helper, completely seperate from actual searching.
::::::::And finally (and this is the real thing) '''the search suggest function has been entirely replaced in the new version of MediaWiki.''' I don't know what's different about the new version, but I think it's stupid to sink too much time into making this version perfect. Slap it a few times to make it behave more like we want, but hold off on major changes until the upgrade.
::::::::And finally, I agree with Jackpot-- purging redirects (which may be ''linked to'' from off-site) in order to make the "search suggest" function work neater is incredibly wrong-headed. Purge redirects if you want-- we certainly need to get rid of some... but '''that should not be your reason'''.
::::::::We deleted the "Nest" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect yesterday. Because apparently no one will ''ever'' search for "Nest." This is out of control. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::There is now a "NEST" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect and "NEST" comes up in the search box when you type "nest". And I click on the suggested list all the time. I think the only real improvement necessary is to assume that the what you are typing is the first word of the article. (so that "All Hail Megatron" doesn't come up when you type "Megatron") - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:27, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm not feeling my work trivialized; most of the things you have said so far count as compliments to me. I'm merely stating what I believe to be the right solution for practical reasons. My current reasoning is that once we have this redirect purging done, it is easier to prevent in the future. A lot of our current redirects to me seem the result of misspellings, disagreements and/or need for an identifier, mostly from a time when we didn't have that awesome search suggestion thing and didn't have a bot to change links for us. I figure that with a clean slate and slightly better organization (like, mark the damn talk page redirect for deletion once you've moved a page), we can prevent the ridicilousness of redirects we currently have. And I disagree with Starfield's suggestion. While we need something for the Megatron search "problem", I have gotten a lot of redirects deleted on the basis that a later word in the query gets you the correct suggestion. Most recent example would be the "Headmasters" redirects to "The Headmasters" articles. But also in case of titles like all the doctors we have, just a correct combination of symbols anywhere should get you the proper suggestions. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::...crap, I forgot searches were case-insensitive, aren't they, even if the actual page ''links'' aren't. Bitchy complaint withdrawn.
::::::::::And yeah, it's annoying as fuck to see page-after-page of redirect-flagging and deleting every time I check the wiki... but it's not exactly ''unneeded'', and a bunch of that stems from imprort and page recovery, stuff that had moved etc... we're just getting it all at once and clearing out 2 years of accumulated deadwood all at once. I have no problem with that-- Deadwood should be cleared. As long as we're doing it for the right reasons. The volume will level off eventually. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:52, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::Thank you, Derik, for explaining why my idea #1 won't work. What about #2? Can the search-suggest, in the process of not displaying redirects, recognize ''where'' each redirect is going and display those pages in the menu too? As I said when I first suggested it, I actually think that's the BEST option of all. Based on your explanation, I'm guessing it's not feasible, but since you only mentioned my first idea, I want to be extra-sure no options are being dismissed out of hand.
:::::::::I appreciate your point about the new MediaWiki, but given what happened the last time it was installed, do you really think we'll try again in the remotely near future? My instinct is that it's too far off to be a factor worth consideration. Besides, maybe we can find out right now if the whole point is moot or not. Do we know of any wikis that are using the new software?
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

The last abortive attempt at a MediaWiki upgrade should not be taken as by any means typical, nor as an example of best practices performing such an upgrade. It can be done better, we know ''how'' to do it better, and the only reason it ''wasn't'' done better is because it was done by people other than the ones we generally trust with such things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:16, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

== Page load issues ==
{{see|Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2}}

==Wikia credits in redirects==
I just discovered this... it looks liek all of our redirects have wikia credits in the code. They don't show up normally, but hit the edit button, and there they all are. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 01:33, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:I noticed this as well, and pointed it out over on the Damage Control Central section.... What I'm curious about is, is there any way for a bot to seek and destroy these? Because there's no way to see them unless you hit the edit button... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 01:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
::I'm wondering if, when we move servers, we can run the same script we used when moving here in order to purge all Wikia links. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:47, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I think we're gonna run a SQL database import when we move servers- so probably not.
:::I (finally) have a complete list of all wiki pages (as of about a week ago) including redirects. I'll rig my de-wikia-er script over the redirects tonight as soon as Big Sweep 2.0 is done-- at least on the 4000-odd redirects in the name namespace. (2.0 does about 1/3 of what I'd hoped it would... the regex's were just breaking my fucking balls, so I resigned myself to taking baby steps. Right now it's fixing one sort of in-page template and fixing all the escaped HTML-- so stuff will at least start ''looking'' more right, even if it's not properly template'd.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:21, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Icons on external links ==

Derik is experimenting with sticking icons on the external links for common external link sites (both for branding, and because it lets you visually scan the links without reading them-- "I want the profile-- NTFA!") These icons require CSS3, and I THINK they work on all modern browsers... but I really dont' care because they fail silently (creating no problems) if they don't. These icons should ''only'' show up in the External Link section-- I'm worried they might screw up layouts elsewhere.

If you hate it, think it could be improved, or just want a site added- let me know. The community can feel free to vote to toss it out if it's annoying... I just thought it was worth trying. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:12, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Epnav working? ==

I remember ''someone'' complaining that our episode navigation was broken when we first did crash recovery. Is that still the case?

(Let's pretend that this inquiry is NOT related to me going through goggle analytics and realizing, to my horror, what % of page traffic passes through those previous/next links.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:06, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:I have no idea about the previous possible issues, but I'll point out here that some articles with epnavs converted so they look right, but when you edit them you'll see the epnav sectiosn were just converted to HTML equivalents of our epnav templates. I don't know if this is a problem, but I've placed a bookworm 2 on pages where I have found them regardless. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:40, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:Interrobang fixed any issues with that a couple of days ago, I think. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:14, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

== Project: ==

For whatever reason, links to [[Project: Transtector]] (see [[Japanese Self Defense Core]] and [[Minerva]]) are automagically translated into links to "Transformers Wiki:Transtector". I'm thinking that's probably not the intended result. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:44, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:Seems to be a kludge to redirect links to wikiprojects.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Blue boxes ==

Not sure where else to ask this question: Is there a reason the blue boxes (stub, coming soon, etc) don't have right hand borders? Or is this just something wonky with my computer? This has bothered me for some time, just thought it would be a good time to fix this (if it isn't just me) while all the other corrections are being made post-disaster.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:44, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:Better suited for the community portal. The main page discussion is specifically for the main page itself. I've moved your question over.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:50, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:Are you using IE 7? I lose the right-hand side of the stub box in that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:04, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Orphaned pages ==

Now that things are starting to get in order, I've started my work on the orphaned page list again. I've noticed something odd. It seems there are a bunch of pages with special characters on the orphaned pages listing that are obviously not orphaned. It mostly seems to be Japanese voice actors and such. If you go to the pages and click the "What links here" button, there are pages linking to it.

At first I thought maybe it was an old list, but since then I have integrated in other orphaned pages and the list does continue update. The question is can we even do anything about this due to the automation? I really would like to get that list down at least to one page. Orphaned pages annoy me.--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 17:12, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:While I have no idea how to fix this, it seems like these special character pages have acquired some weird kind of duplicates. For example, type "rmun" into the search box, and the dropdown menu gives you two different "[[Jörmungandr]]" articles, apparently with the same name but using different URLs for the special characters: "Jo%CC%88rmungandr" and "J%C3%B6rmungandr". Wiki considers the former URL to be an orphaned article and the latter one to be "correct", but both lead to the same article, no Wiki redirects or nothing. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 17:38, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::I have some ideas about fixing the problem, but I'd rather set up a test server to try them on before doing them on the main site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:41, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::FYI: [[Professor Gō]] has two entries in [[:Category:Scientists|Category sections]]. One is real (and filed under "G") and one is messed up (and filed under "P"). It isn't a redirect, it is some kind of ghost. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I've also noticed that our page count on the Main Page seems to be in a state of flux. It gets up higher and then lowers. I wonder if this is due to these "duplicate" pages sometimes getting counted and other times not. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 10:42, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I think I am the fault of that. I'm not sure if it goes for all instances, but at least when I put the delete template on a redirect, it suddenly counts as a "page". Wait until someone has removed those pages marked for deletion - the count will lower again. Then wait for me to mark a few more and the page count will go up again. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 11:02, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

== Comics copyright ==

Right now, the comiccover template states that:
:''This image is the cover of a single issue of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist who produced this cover.''
...and similarly, the comicinterior template says:
:''This image is a panel or sequence of panels of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist and/or writer who produced this issue.''

Thing is, that's inaccurate in significant part - AIUI, Hasbro Transformers comic licencees have to surrender the copyrights on material published in a TF comic to Hasbro... with certain exceptions - primarily for our purposes, the publisher logos and publisher-owned characters. That's why Marvel went to the trouble of debuting Circuit Breaker and Death's Head (and others? Not counting issue 3 of the Marvel US series with long-established Spider-Man, Nick Fury, etc; of course) outside of their TF comics, so that they would retain the rights; and why Titan & IDW can reprint Marvel issues (although IDW seem to have a *lot* more trouble getting the rights to reprint the Marvel-owned stuff than Titan did).

Does anyone know enough of the details to write up versions of the templates suitable for Marvel US, Marvel UK, IDW, etc? [DW is more complicated, since their G1 ongoing and WW v3 fell into the black hole of their bankruptcy, when their earlier, nominally completed, stuff didn't] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

== Moved talk pages ==

There should really be an option to delete the old talk page after it is moved instead of creating a redirect. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:20, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

==DEFAULSORT problem?==
Several of the entries in the [[:Category:Voice actors|voice actors category]] are listed both under their surname and their first name. These appear to be the actors with some accent in their name: [[Ireneusz Załóg]], [[Márcio Seixas]], [[Maurício Berger]] and [[Willi Röbke]]. Having accents, but not having this problem are [[Fátima Noya]] (but that's not DEFAULTSORTed), [[José Santacruz]] and [[José Sant'anna]]. Apparently, there's some problem DEFAULTSORT has with some of the accented vowels ([é] does work, [á], [ó], [í] and [ö] don't). Can this problem be solved? -- [[User:Tupka86|Tupka86]] 09:06, 18 April 2009 (EDT)
:It's related to the [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Damage_Control_Central#Macron_issues|Macron issue mentioned here]]. Once we fix that, the listing under their first name will disappear. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:07, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Alt Mode Header Pictures? ==

So, this is a pretty big suggestion, but it struck me that a nice addition to the vast majority of character pages would be, at the top of the page just below the character image, another image of them in their alt mode. I realize that some of the character images already have both representations in them, but plenty of pages (I was at [[Shrapnel_(G1)|Shrapnel]] when the idea hit me) don't even have a single visual representation of a Transformer's altmode!

I realize (or at least suspect) that this would be quite the undertaking, given that it would mean a change of the site's format standard, but it's something that I think would genuinely contribute to the overall quality of this wiki. An altmode is just as much a part of who a Transformer is, after all, and a lot of character intros don't reflect that enough. Hell, I've also wondered why we don't have a section right before "Fiction" called "Altmode(s)."

Please consider and respond, because I really think this is a good idea (and sort of an obvious one, too), but it's also a very big idea, and very big ideas tend to be retarded ideas incognito (especially if said ideas seem obvious). Tell other people to weigh in on this too! Preferably the people in charge.

[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 16:32, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

:Usually, we try to include their (fiction-specific) alternate modes in relevant fiction sections. We don't normally include them as part of the main image because some of the more popular characters have had too many vehicle modes, and often, the main pictures we use up top never had an accompanying vehicle mode image. Personally, I prefer consistency in images so I would rather have, say, an image of Optimus Prime and his vehicle mode having been drawn by the same artist in the same style for the same project, rather than from two entirely different pieces of art. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:26, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:Whenever I make a mainpic image, I include the altmode if there is one. (See [[Galvatron II]], [[Soundwave (Cybertron)]], [[Fastlane]], [[Flame (UK comic)]], and [[Cog (G1)]]. I even did one for a subsection, [[Optimus Primal#Cybertron comic]].) That's the way I personally prefer to see the idea executed, and it certainly doesn't require a change to the format of the wiki. You're not the first person to bring the idea up, so I'm kind of surprised I've never seen anyone but myself actually ''do'' it. I don't think it should ever be considered a ''requirement'' for a page, but I do consider it a preferred addition. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:18, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think it'd be ''nice'' for a lot of characters... but in many cases it simply doesn't exist, or it'd look awkward. Look at the main image on [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], there simply ''is'' no vehicle mode art to match that beautiful body shot. And how do you present it? Verrtically? That'd push the dfirst section ''way'' down in most cases (it's already pushed down on most articles) whereas horizontally is unworkable for a bunch of other reasons.
::The mainpics seem to represent a sort of compromise... even if the character has has multiple incarnations, they all presumably look more-or-less like their original robot mode-- even if the vehicle changes wildly.
::And fundamentally-- I think you'd have people throwing fits if you squeezed an irrelevant Cheetah into [[Cheetor (BW)]]'s top section instead of his other robot modes. The beast mode is so... secondary. If we were gonna wedge more visuals into the main pics, vehicle modes would ''not'' be out first pic in many cases. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Cover artists ==

Anyone got a list of cover artists, especially for the Marvel US G1 series? I'm trying to fill our the image description pages for those right now, and I'm being hampered by the lack of info on that score. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
: I don't know of any pre-existing list. Some I can tell by the style, some I only can guess at due to the signature, and the rest who knows. They didn't credit those things back then beyond the signature, so... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::Well, most of the issue pages appear to have the artists listed (albeit buried at the bottom of the page...), and I've just found [http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/transfor.htm this page], so I've been filling them in.
::One slightly problematic one though - [[:Image:MarvelUS-62.jpg|Marvel US #62]]. There's two signatures, but the only intelligible one is "Rod Ramos" (Rodney Ramos, who as far as I'm aware works mostly as an inker), and he's given as the artist on the issue page. The current image-page description lists Geoff Senior as the artist, and I can believe it - but I'm not 100% sure, and he inked himself on the interiors. Can anyone confirm? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:02, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Anti-troll ==

After another you-know-who rampage earlier, whatever happened to blacklisting "Detour" and "Fuck" from being used in page & user names, and requiring autoconfirmed priviliges to upload files? Was that a casualty of the Big Crash? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
:I think plans to upgrade/add plugins to the software have been put on hold while the cleanup too place and we got ready for moving to a new host (how far away are we from setting a date for that anyway?). Perhaps it's time to revisit installing the title blacklist plugin? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Advertising Idea ==

So, I came up with a fun idea for advertising the wiki IRL. I decided to make an Autobot propaganda poster with the TFWiki.net watermark that people could print out and post in the colleges or whatever nerdy hangouts they use. I've uploaded it to my Photobucket account, so have a look and let me know what you think of it: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/Semysane/TFWiki%20Ads/OptimusPropaganda01-Beta.png This is just a test to see if I could make it not look like crap; it's still a work in progress (ie: still crap). If a more talented person wants to have a go at making a better one, go at it. BTW, the Ancient Autobot text there says "Till All Are One" -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 22:20, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:I think it looks pretty good. Certainly in very eye-catching colours. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:30, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
::Thank you! I'm thinking of making a Decepticon one as well. Any ideas on a slogan for that one? The Cons don't have many awesome ones like Till All Are One. "Transform and Rise Up" maybe? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:56, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> ==

I've made an alteration to <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> that's going to start tracking how ''long'' (in months) these articles have lacked main pictures for. In theory this'll (eventually) give us a way to triage these neglected articles. In practice, the dates are starting from ''now'', so there's gonna be a whole mess of articles with '0' months. It'll sort itself out over time.

This depends on me running a maintenece program every couple of weeks FYI, that replaces all instances of <nowiki>{{mainpic}} with {{mainpic|date}}</nowiki>. We'll see how ''that'' works. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:58, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Marvel G2 issues ==

The G2 comic pages are listed under story titles (e.g., [[Dark Shadows!]] from G2 #11), but backup stories (in the case of G2 #11, "Tales of Earth Part Eight") are listed on the same pages.

Shouldn't the pages either be moved to a page named after the issue, the way the current UK Titan series appears to be treated, or else split along story lines? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:05, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|letters=|help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-05-18T17:44:07Z

81.108.237.26: /* Quotes */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
}}

==So what now?==
{{note|This discussion has been moved to [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2#So what now?]].}}

== Image aspect ratios ==

I notice a lot of ''Animated'' screencaps, like [[:Image:SariLayingDown1.jpg]], are out-of-aspect ratio, which is kinda annoying - neither NTSC (480i, typically 720x480, US/Japan) nor PAL (576i, typically 720x576, UK/Europe/Australia) use square pixels, while computers do. A screencap from a 4:3 NTSC source should really be resized to 640px wide for uploading here, while a screencap from a 4:3 PAL source should be resized to 768px wide. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:39, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Since screen caps usually have to be trimmed of black borders, I'm not going to bugger about trying to get the aspect ratio correct. I just upload whatever my DVD software gives me. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:05, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

== News from Wookieepedia ==

A while back, one of the users here [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:SH_Archive/Site_Partnership_with_TFWiki suggested a partnership] between Wookieepedia and this wiki.
In case you're wondering what happened with that, the ongoing nomination process is [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Official_Friends_of_Wookieepedia/Nominations#TFWiki.net here]. [[User:Silly Dan|Silly Dan]] 22:44, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:Awesome! Now, settle this argument - could Death Star transformed as Darth Vader beat Unicron? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:Cool. I think I made a vague overture there at one point specifically about the coverage of Attacktix and that weird Star Wars vs. TF packaging - I understand there have been some direct and less-direct TF references in SW (which I imagine will only continue to crop up, given that the current and incoming generations of SW official content creators are likely to be of the age where they're at least casually aware of TF, if not fans in their own right), so this is probably a pretty reasonable networking opportunity. We can explain to you guys why the Optimus Prime that fought Darth Vader doesn't look like the one you had as a kid, and you can explain to us how the entire thing was totally non-canonical anyway. Heh heh. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:54, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

==Purging redirects==
I've noticed that the recovery process has been used as a good excuse for deleting useless redirects. I'm totally in support of this, and I'd like to figure out what counts as "useless." I used to think the more redirects, the better, since that would increase the chances of good results from people's misspelled or ill-informed searches. But now that we have that auto-drop-down suggestion thing, I've pulled a complete 180. Every redirect just clutters that menu up. To my mind, there are only five justifications for any redirect:
# It's the base version of an otherwise parenthetically-disambiguated set ([[Optimus Prime]])
# It's an alternate official term ([[Rodimus Prime]])
# It's a fan-term that is equally or more prevalent than the official term ([[Big Floating Head]])
# It's an alternate parenthetical that had received notable support in discussion (I think [[Sideways (Armada)]] was heading in that direction before the crash)
# It's a valid alternate spelling/parsing, especially if the auto-drop-down wouldn't naturally correct the user ([[STARS]])
I can't think of any other valid reason for a redirect existing. I bring this up because I've noticed in repairing the S.T.A.R.S. articles that there are both vestigial redirects from past improper capitalization ([[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?|Have the Decepticons Defeated Us Once and For All?]]) and newly-created redirects compensating for a grammatical mistake on Hasbro's part ([[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.|Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers' greatest battle on Earth.]]). I don't think either of those have sufficient reason to exist. What say you? 
- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:38, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:The less redirects, the better, I think. They just clutter up the search suggestion box, thereby getting in the way rather than helping. Talk page redirects should be killed on sight.
:But in this regard, we have Optimus (G1) redirecting to Optimus Prime (G1). Same for other Optimuses and Nemesises and the like. I'm in favour of getting rid of these as well (one such shortened version could stay to redirect to the dismabguation page, but that's it), but I'm not entirely sure. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:46, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::Actually, looking at the auto-drop-down menu results for "Optimus (", it looks like every single series has its own version of that. That strikes me as silly; [[Optimus]] is all we need. But it depends on your approach: I'm taking a guilty-until-proven-innocent view, where redirects are assumed to be deletable unless they can be defended on the grounds stated above. I checked out [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#When should we delete a redirect?|how Wikipedia does it]], and they seem to favor the opposite view, based on the logic that a deleted redirect can cause unforeseen breakages (like if other websites link to the now-defunct redirect). I personally find their arguments unconvincing, but I don't know how other people feel. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:03, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Not to mention it is confusing, like in the case of Nemesis (G1)/Nemesis Prime (G1) - most "Nemesis (" are redirects to their respective Nemesis Prime, but Nemesis (G1) leads to the ship, breaking any sense of consistency. As far as common shortened versions of names go, I think all we need is one that redirects to the disambiguation page. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:58, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Absolutely agreed. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:::I believe we need to give a little leeway to those who are even less than a casual fan. Having extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered (Optimus, Soundwave). Some people may just find the search box, type, and hit enter without even taking into account the drop down menu. One thing I think should remain to a point as well are acronyms minus the periods, i.e. GI Joe or STARS. A quick type, enter, and it redirects. I say this especially with GI Joe in mind since we may be getting traffic with the new movie and the JoePedia seems deader than the wikia TF.

:::I agree with Jackpot when it comes to redirects being linked to. I highly doubt that will be a problem. In-wiki we have a great team to fix all links before the page is deleted. In the case of out-wiki links, those who place the most around the net are very unlikely to link to a redirect. Those that do I think are too much of a minority to tip the balance against cleanliness of page numbers. Savvy? :::--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:53, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Good point with the acronyms. I've added it to the list up above. I'm not sure what you mean about the "extra redirects for characters vaguely remembered", though. In the Optimus example, what less-than-casual fan is going to type "Optimus (G1)"? They're just going to type "[[Optimus]]", which will go to the disambig. All those "Optimus (__)" articles still seem completely useless to me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:00, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd argue that gramatically correct forms of titles should remain as redirects. I don't want to expect a user to remember that one STARS flyer skimped on an apostrophe or that "Inferno Imprisoned" is actually spelled "Inferno Improsoned". Everything else I agree with you. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:16, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Though both of those would be wrong because it's actually [[Improsoned Inferno]]. I'm not being needlessly nitpicky: It demonstrates the point that I always make a habit of double-checking my links if there's the slightest question about them (especially given how many disambig-pages we have these days). Plus does this mean we should have [[Scorpinok|Scorponok (episode)]] and [[Trasformer|Transformers (Italy)]] pages?
::::::That having been said, I'm not particularly die-hard about this question. The "improsoned" example doesn't bother me that much because it's such a short title and therefore people would likely try to link it from memory. "[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]", on the other hand, is so ridiculously long that I wouldn't expect ''anybody'' to try to use without looking it up first. It certainly took me a while to get comfortable with it, and I'm the S.T.A.R.S. expert here. Plus having the two(!) apostrophe'd redirects adds a level of absurdity to the drop-down, since you can't even see the difference in the limited space.
::::::Incidentally, right before we left Wikia, a feature was implemented that made the drop-down appear every time you typed a double-bracket while editing. I hadn't decided if that was awesome or annoying before it went away, but if it ever comes back, the argument for "correction" redirects will become even weaker, I think.
::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:13, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::While I agree about keeping useful redirects like the aforementioned STARS and Imprisoned Inferno, I do want to point out that our visitors are not either minimally knowledged on Transformers or complete retards. Someone with barely any knowledge on Transformers should still be able to find the correct article, if not through the search suggestion boxes, then through disambiguation banners or related pages (like "Energon (cartoon)" for Improsoned Inferno). And I doubt anyone would be annoyed about a tiny bit of searching. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 04:00, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

::Speaking of the search suggestion box, is it possible to customise its behaviour to give priority to articles ''starting'' with whatever you type in? At the moment, if I type in "Megatron", I get a choice of "All Hail Megatron" issues rather than a choice of actual characters named "Megatron". This makes the suggestion thing less useful in my books, and it'd be better if it gave me a choice of articles with names ''starting'' with Megatron and ''then'' other articles with "Megatron" in the name. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:20, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think the search extension proper allows you to do this in settings, but it could be done by adjusting the code.
:::(You could also make it so redirects didn't show up in the search-suggestion box, which seems much more important to ''me''.)
:::Hh. I just discovered something ''hilarious'' about redirects, I'm gonna make it a new topic. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:38, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I vote against the removal of redirects from the search-suggestion box. It would be ridiculous not to be suggested "Rodimus Prime (G1)" when searching for Rodimus because the article's name is "Hot Rod (G1)" with the other identity's name as redirect. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Can we have the search-menu program ignore redirects by default but have an option for exceptions? For instance, maybe there could be a template that we add to redirects that we actually WANT to have show up in the search-menu, like [[Rodimus Prime]]. I know nothing of the programming magic necessary to make this happen, so can someone in the know tell if this is feasible? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::But... what purpose do redirects serve if not to help people find an article? The only ones I'm sparing are ones someone arguably could use for their search? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:38, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
I'm gonna agree with Geewunling here. There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't, and they are useful to show up as suggestions. The way to get that signal to noise ratio better is exactly what he's been doing, purging those redirects that are unlikely to be frequent search terms, and leaving the ones that people are likely to search by.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
: *Psst* "she". [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:49, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::No, no, I already deleted that redirect. "He" is all we have left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Deleting "unworthy" redirects is a rather... violent solution. Even though I advocated it at the beginning of this discussion, I actually do prefer a surgical removal from just the search-menu instead if it's possible. As this discussion has shown, different people have different standards for what counts as worthwhile, and I'd rather see arguments revolve around something as easily changeable as a template than the creation/deletion of whole pages. Plus there's the sheer man-hours factor: My instinct is that more redirects are created by renaming ''badly''-titled articles than because of valid alternates, and therefore it will be more work to cull all the worthless redirects than it will be to modify the good ones for menu-inclusion.
:Plus I had another thought that might circumvent the need for ''any'' redirect-modification: What if typing the name of a redirect made the drop-down show only the actual article? For instance, the word "Rodimus" is in the name of ''four'' different redirects to [[Hot Rod (G1)]]: [[Rodimus Prime]], [[Rodimus Prime (G1)]], [[Hot Rodimus]], and [[New Rodimus]]. For some reason only the last two currently show up in the drop-down when you type "Rodimus", but that's still twice as many as there ought to be. If it just said "Hot Rod (G1)" instead of any of those, then we'd be keeping the drop-down clean without blocking the user's path, plus there would be no need at all to delete, modify, or otherwise discriminate among redirects.
:(Again, I have NO idea if this is programmatically feasible... but it's the best scenario I can envision.)
: - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::''There is no meaningful way to differentiate redirects we want to show up in the searchbox from those we don't''
::We could have the search function not return redirects, which was the way it behaved on wikia.
::It's not a huge issue for most wikis-- but because we are ''so'' "disambiguated," (almost every major article having multiple disambigs and redirects,) it's kinda a big deal for us.
::So we probably want Scour to edit ''SearchSuggest.php'' so that.
<pre>if($location == 1){

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '%" .$db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)). "%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
} else {

$res = $db->select( 'page', 'page_title',
array( 'page_namespace' => 0,
'page_is_redirect' => 0,
"UPPER(page_title) LIKE '". $db->strencode( strtoupper ($term)) ."%'" ),
"wfSajaxSearch",
array( 'LIMIT' => $limit )
);
}</pre>
::We'd probably also want to set <tt>$location = 0;</tt> near the beginning of the file. (Match titles from the front only.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I can't tell what that code does, but from your description it sounds like it would just purge all redirects from the search drop-down. Thing is, so far you're the only one who thinks that's a good idea. I agree with Geewunling and Rosicrucian that at least ''some'' redirects are helpful, since there are so many valid alternate terms. So I've been suggesting middle-ground ideas, but I've got no clue if they can actually be done. What do you think of them? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::When do you need a redirect in a search-suggestion? Searching for "Megatron" will give you a list of pages with disambigs after them. Searching for "Matrix" will give you a list of pages whose title starts with "Matrix." Matrix (Disambiguation) will be the first match because a "(" comes before any letter alphabetically.
::::What redirects do you want in there? "Humans" as well as "Human" You want "Brothers in Armor" (a redirect) to appear in addition to the real page "Brothers in Armor!!"
::::I assume you do have a reason why including redirects in the list of search suggestions would be an idea, an example-case I'm missing. Could you tell me what it is?
::::I mean-- we get 8 suggestions. '''There are more than 8 Optimus Primes'''. At this point I go to the (disambiguation) page, or click RiD Prime at random, then click its disambig link to navigate sideways to the Prime I want.
::::Wikia's search suggest nix'd redirects-- and a lot of times I just used it to to find a page title I knew was "right" rather than a redirect. So if I see the link to "Falcon" on this page is blinking because it's a redirect, I type "Falcon" into the search-suggest box to see what my options are. Having ''any'' redirects there, no matter how well-intentioned is bad. I don't WANT to see "Falcon" as a search-suggestion (it's the #1 match,) because that's a redirect.
::::When exactly is having a redirect in a search suggestion useful? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:57, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::An example has already been brought up: Rodimus Prime. If you type that in and the menu doesn't show redirects, you'll get [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)]] and [[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]], but you WON'T get [[Hot Rod (G1)]], which is most likely what you were looking for. If you want more examples than that, a couple have already jumped to mind, but I hope you'll agree without further persuasion that there are lots of cases like this. Hence my two suggestions: We exclude redirects by default and either 1) have a template we can throw onto valuable redirects so they're not excluded, or 2) make it so the core article actually shows up in the menu even if the word you're typing isn't in its title. Like I also said, I have NO idea if either of those is feasible. But without some intercessory factor like that, I think simply excluding redirects is a little too baby-with-the-bathwater. In the meantime, Geewunling is weeding through dozens of redirects, marking for deletion all of the ones she judges unworthy. I think THAT solution is dismayingly painstaking and severe (even though I suggested it in the first place), but in the absence of a programmatic solution, it might end up being the best. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:04, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Geewunling likes to point out that she thinks a lot of these redirects should be fixed and/or deleted regardless. There's no point in keeping most of them, and they clog up things. I like some of the ideas mentioned here on how to have search suggestion box react on queries to exclude unhelpful redirects, but we should just get rid of a lot of them anyway. Btw, I've been wondering, is it possible to make the search suggestion box a bit longer than it currently is? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:30, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Sorry, I didn't mean to disparage your efforts; I appreciate orderliness as much as anyone, and it's pleasing to see useless redirects vanish. By all means, as long as you have the gumption for it, knock yourself out. What's "dismaying" about it to me, the more I think about it, is the idea of it becoming our official solution to the problem of a cluttered search menu. That's a lot of painstaking work to put on the shoulders of the wiki in general, especially since we're never going to see the end of useless redirects as the wiki grows. And the thing is, if we can find a programmatic solution for the search-menu issue, then the only area where redirects will really "clog up things" the annoying realm of double-redirects, which have been popping up at a very manageable rate so far. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 09:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Double redirects are easy-- have the 'bot fix 'em.
::::::::And ''thank you'' Jackpot, "Rodimus Prime (G1)" is a good example of a time when redirects in search boxes would be useful-- my imagination failed me.
::::::::Here's the thing-- the thing you're suggesting... hiding all redirects except ones we flag in-page is... not possible, at least not without a fundamental change to the core functionality of the wiki, which is code I wouldn't touch with a ten foot laser pole. The "page_is_redirect" flag is a fundamental yes-no boolean database field associated with the page entry. We can ''reference'' that, but turning it into something squishier like "is redirect, or is a page we like" sounds nightmarish. I guess ''maybe'' you could totally rewrite the database query to use a join that tests against a category id... or more likely a category name that would be... ugh, it's giving me a headache just ''thinking'' about it... you'd be transforming a light ajax query that might be performed 10 times when you're typing a single word into an incredibly ''heavy'' cross-referencing string-match join query-- it's the difference between using a cup-holder and getting out of the car to fetch your drink from the trunk every time you want to take a sip. ...not to mention you'd be making core wiki functionality dependent on proprietary hacks-- in the service of a function that's supposed to be a minor ''enhancement.''
::::::::Let me sketch another scenario for you.
::::::::#I want Rodimus Prime! I type him in the search box.
::::::::#I see several results, none of which looks like the one I want. Rather than "Rodimus (disambiguation)" I clock "Rodimus (Animated)," just ot be difficult.
::::::::#This isn't the guy I want! Oh look, there's a link at the top-- "Other people called Rodimus Prime..." Hey, it's a list! And I want the first one on it!
::::::::You know-- that's assuming that the person clicks on the search-suggest. Most people ''don't''. If they click "Search" it'll come up just liek ti always does. The suggest function is just a tiny helper, completely seperate from actual searching.
::::::::And finally (and this is the real thing) '''the search suggest function has been entirely replaced in the new version of MediaWiki.''' I don't know what's different about the new version, but I think it's stupid to sink too much time into making this version perfect. Slap it a few times to make it behave more like we want, but hold off on major changes until the upgrade.
::::::::And finally, I agree with Jackpot-- purging redirects (which may be ''linked to'' from off-site) in order to make the "search suggest" function work neater is incredibly wrong-headed. Purge redirects if you want-- we certainly need to get rid of some... but '''that should not be your reason'''.
::::::::We deleted the "Nest" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect yesterday. Because apparently no one will ''ever'' search for "Nest." This is out of control. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::There is now a "NEST" -> "N.E.S.T." redirect and "NEST" comes up in the search box when you type "nest". And I click on the suggested list all the time. I think the only real improvement necessary is to assume that the what you are typing is the first word of the article. (so that "All Hail Megatron" doesn't come up when you type "Megatron") - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:27, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm not feeling my work trivialized; most of the things you have said so far count as compliments to me. I'm merely stating what I believe to be the right solution for practical reasons. My current reasoning is that once we have this redirect purging done, it is easier to prevent in the future. A lot of our current redirects to me seem the result of misspellings, disagreements and/or need for an identifier, mostly from a time when we didn't have that awesome search suggestion thing and didn't have a bot to change links for us. I figure that with a clean slate and slightly better organization (like, mark the damn talk page redirect for deletion once you've moved a page), we can prevent the ridicilousness of redirects we currently have. And I disagree with Starfield's suggestion. While we need something for the Megatron search "problem", I have gotten a lot of redirects deleted on the basis that a later word in the query gets you the correct suggestion. Most recent example would be the "Headmasters" redirects to "The Headmasters" articles. But also in case of titles like all the doctors we have, just a correct combination of symbols anywhere should get you the proper suggestions. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::...crap, I forgot searches were case-insensitive, aren't they, even if the actual page ''links'' aren't. Bitchy complaint withdrawn.
::::::::::And yeah, it's annoying as fuck to see page-after-page of redirect-flagging and deleting every time I check the wiki... but it's not exactly ''unneeded'', and a bunch of that stems from imprort and page recovery, stuff that had moved etc... we're just getting it all at once and clearing out 2 years of accumulated deadwood all at once. I have no problem with that-- Deadwood should be cleared. As long as we're doing it for the right reasons. The volume will level off eventually. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:52, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::Thank you, Derik, for explaining why my idea #1 won't work. What about #2? Can the search-suggest, in the process of not displaying redirects, recognize ''where'' each redirect is going and display those pages in the menu too? As I said when I first suggested it, I actually think that's the BEST option of all. Based on your explanation, I'm guessing it's not feasible, but since you only mentioned my first idea, I want to be extra-sure no options are being dismissed out of hand.
:::::::::I appreciate your point about the new MediaWiki, but given what happened the last time it was installed, do you really think we'll try again in the remotely near future? My instinct is that it's too far off to be a factor worth consideration. Besides, maybe we can find out right now if the whole point is moot or not. Do we know of any wikis that are using the new software?
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

The last abortive attempt at a MediaWiki upgrade should not be taken as by any means typical, nor as an example of best practices performing such an upgrade. It can be done better, we know ''how'' to do it better, and the only reason it ''wasn't'' done better is because it was done by people other than the ones we generally trust with such things.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:16, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

== Page load issues ==
{{see|Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2}}

==Wikia credits in redirects==
I just discovered this... it looks liek all of our redirects have wikia credits in the code. They don't show up normally, but hit the edit button, and there they all are. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 01:33, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:I noticed this as well, and pointed it out over on the Damage Control Central section.... What I'm curious about is, is there any way for a bot to seek and destroy these? Because there's no way to see them unless you hit the edit button... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 01:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
::I'm wondering if, when we move servers, we can run the same script we used when moving here in order to purge all Wikia links. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:47, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I think we're gonna run a SQL database import when we move servers- so probably not.
:::I (finally) have a complete list of all wiki pages (as of about a week ago) including redirects. I'll rig my de-wikia-er script over the redirects tonight as soon as Big Sweep 2.0 is done-- at least on the 4000-odd redirects in the name namespace. (2.0 does about 1/3 of what I'd hoped it would... the regex's were just breaking my fucking balls, so I resigned myself to taking baby steps. Right now it's fixing one sort of in-page template and fixing all the escaped HTML-- so stuff will at least start ''looking'' more right, even if it's not properly template'd.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:21, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Icons on external links ==

Derik is experimenting with sticking icons on the external links for common external link sites (both for branding, and because it lets you visually scan the links without reading them-- "I want the profile-- NTFA!") These icons require CSS3, and I THINK they work on all modern browsers... but I really dont' care because they fail silently (creating no problems) if they don't. These icons should ''only'' show up in the External Link section-- I'm worried they might screw up layouts elsewhere.

If you hate it, think it could be improved, or just want a site added- let me know. The community can feel free to vote to toss it out if it's annoying... I just thought it was worth trying. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:12, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

== Epnav working? ==

I remember ''someone'' complaining that our episode navigation was broken when we first did crash recovery. Is that still the case?

(Let's pretend that this inquiry is NOT related to me going through goggle analytics and realizing, to my horror, what % of page traffic passes through those previous/next links.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:06, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:I have no idea about the previous possible issues, but I'll point out here that some articles with epnavs converted so they look right, but when you edit them you'll see the epnav sectiosn were just converted to HTML equivalents of our epnav templates. I don't know if this is a problem, but I've placed a bookworm 2 on pages where I have found them regardless. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:40, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

:Interrobang fixed any issues with that a couple of days ago, I think. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:14, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

== Project: ==

For whatever reason, links to [[Project: Transtector]] (see [[Japanese Self Defense Core]] and [[Minerva]]) are automagically translated into links to "Transformers Wiki:Transtector". I'm thinking that's probably not the intended result. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:44, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:Seems to be a kludge to redirect links to wikiprojects.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Blue boxes ==

Not sure where else to ask this question: Is there a reason the blue boxes (stub, coming soon, etc) don't have right hand borders? Or is this just something wonky with my computer? This has bothered me for some time, just thought it would be a good time to fix this (if it isn't just me) while all the other corrections are being made post-disaster.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:44, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:Better suited for the community portal. The main page discussion is specifically for the main page itself. I've moved your question over.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:50, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:Are you using IE 7? I lose the right-hand side of the stub box in that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:04, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Orphaned pages ==

Now that things are starting to get in order, I've started my work on the orphaned page list again. I've noticed something odd. It seems there are a bunch of pages with special characters on the orphaned pages listing that are obviously not orphaned. It mostly seems to be Japanese voice actors and such. If you go to the pages and click the "What links here" button, there are pages linking to it.

At first I thought maybe it was an old list, but since then I have integrated in other orphaned pages and the list does continue update. The question is can we even do anything about this due to the automation? I really would like to get that list down at least to one page. Orphaned pages annoy me.--[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 17:12, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

:While I have no idea how to fix this, it seems like these special character pages have acquired some weird kind of duplicates. For example, type "rmun" into the search box, and the dropdown menu gives you two different "[[Jörmungandr]]" articles, apparently with the same name but using different URLs for the special characters: "Jo%CC%88rmungandr" and "J%C3%B6rmungandr". Wiki considers the former URL to be an orphaned article and the latter one to be "correct", but both lead to the same article, no Wiki redirects or nothing. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 17:38, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::I have some ideas about fixing the problem, but I'd rather set up a test server to try them on before doing them on the main site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:41, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::FYI: [[Professor Gō]] has two entries in [[:Category:Scientists|Category sections]]. One is real (and filed under "G") and one is messed up (and filed under "P"). It isn't a redirect, it is some kind of ghost. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:::I've also noticed that our page count on the Main Page seems to be in a state of flux. It gets up higher and then lowers. I wonder if this is due to these "duplicate" pages sometimes getting counted and other times not. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 10:42, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I think I am the fault of that. I'm not sure if it goes for all instances, but at least when I put the delete template on a redirect, it suddenly counts as a "page". Wait until someone has removed those pages marked for deletion - the count will lower again. Then wait for me to mark a few more and the page count will go up again. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 11:02, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

== Comics copyright ==

Right now, the comiccover template states that:
:''This image is the cover of a single issue of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist who produced this cover.''
...and similarly, the comicinterior template says:
:''This image is a panel or sequence of panels of a comic book, the copyright for which is owned by either the publisher or the artist and/or writer who produced this issue.''

Thing is, that's inaccurate in significant part - AIUI, Hasbro Transformers comic licencees have to surrender the copyrights on material published in a TF comic to Hasbro... with certain exceptions - primarily for our purposes, the publisher logos and publisher-owned characters. That's why Marvel went to the trouble of debuting Circuit Breaker and Death's Head (and others? Not counting issue 3 of the Marvel US series with long-established Spider-Man, Nick Fury, etc; of course) outside of their TF comics, so that they would retain the rights; and why Titan & IDW can reprint Marvel issues (although IDW seem to have a *lot* more trouble getting the rights to reprint the Marvel-owned stuff than Titan did).

Does anyone know enough of the details to write up versions of the templates suitable for Marvel US, Marvel UK, IDW, etc? [DW is more complicated, since their G1 ongoing and WW v3 fell into the black hole of their bankruptcy, when their earlier, nominally completed, stuff didn't] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

== Moved talk pages ==

There should really be an option to delete the old talk page after it is moved instead of creating a redirect. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:20, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

==DEFAULSORT problem?==
Several of the entries in the [[:Category:Voice actors|voice actors category]] are listed both under their surname and their first name. These appear to be the actors with some accent in their name: [[Ireneusz Załóg]], [[Márcio Seixas]], [[Maurício Berger]] and [[Willi Röbke]]. Having accents, but not having this problem are [[Fátima Noya]] (but that's not DEFAULTSORTed), [[José Santacruz]] and [[José Sant'anna]]. Apparently, there's some problem DEFAULTSORT has with some of the accented vowels ([é] does work, [á], [ó], [í] and [ö] don't). Can this problem be solved? -- [[User:Tupka86|Tupka86]] 09:06, 18 April 2009 (EDT)
:It's related to the [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Damage_Control_Central#Macron_issues|Macron issue mentioned here]]. Once we fix that, the listing under their first name will disappear. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:07, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Alt Mode Header Pictures? ==

So, this is a pretty big suggestion, but it struck me that a nice addition to the vast majority of character pages would be, at the top of the page just below the character image, another image of them in their alt mode. I realize that some of the character images already have both representations in them, but plenty of pages (I was at [[Shrapnel_(G1)|Shrapnel]] when the idea hit me) don't even have a single visual representation of a Transformer's altmode!

I realize (or at least suspect) that this would be quite the undertaking, given that it would mean a change of the site's format standard, but it's something that I think would genuinely contribute to the overall quality of this wiki. An altmode is just as much a part of who a Transformer is, after all, and a lot of character intros don't reflect that enough. Hell, I've also wondered why we don't have a section right before "Fiction" called "Altmode(s)."

Please consider and respond, because I really think this is a good idea (and sort of an obvious one, too), but it's also a very big idea, and very big ideas tend to be retarded ideas incognito (especially if said ideas seem obvious). Tell other people to weigh in on this too! Preferably the people in charge.

[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 16:32, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

:Usually, we try to include their (fiction-specific) alternate modes in relevant fiction sections. We don't normally include them as part of the main image because some of the more popular characters have had too many vehicle modes, and often, the main pictures we use up top never had an accompanying vehicle mode image. Personally, I prefer consistency in images so I would rather have, say, an image of Optimus Prime and his vehicle mode having been drawn by the same artist in the same style for the same project, rather than from two entirely different pieces of art. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:26, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:Whenever I make a mainpic image, I include the altmode if there is one. (See [[Galvatron II]], [[Soundwave (Cybertron)]], [[Fastlane]], [[Flame (UK comic)]], and [[Cog (G1)]]. I even did one for a subsection, [[Optimus Primal#Cybertron comic]].) That's the way I personally prefer to see the idea executed, and it certainly doesn't require a change to the format of the wiki. You're not the first person to bring the idea up, so I'm kind of surprised I've never seen anyone but myself actually ''do'' it. I don't think it should ever be considered a ''requirement'' for a page, but I do consider it a preferred addition. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:18, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think it'd be ''nice'' for a lot of characters... but in many cases it simply doesn't exist, or it'd look awkward. Look at the main image on [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], there simply ''is'' no vehicle mode art to match that beautiful body shot. And how do you present it? Verrtically? That'd push the dfirst section ''way'' down in most cases (it's already pushed down on most articles) whereas horizontally is unworkable for a bunch of other reasons.
::The mainpics seem to represent a sort of compromise... even if the character has has multiple incarnations, they all presumably look more-or-less like their original robot mode-- even if the vehicle changes wildly.
::And fundamentally-- I think you'd have people throwing fits if you squeezed an irrelevant Cheetah into [[Cheetor (BW)]]'s top section instead of his other robot modes. The beast mode is so... secondary. If we were gonna wedge more visuals into the main pics, vehicle modes would ''not'' be out first pic in many cases. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Cover artists ==

Anyone got a list of cover artists, especially for the Marvel US G1 series? I'm trying to fill our the image description pages for those right now, and I'm being hampered by the lack of info on that score. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
: I don't know of any pre-existing list. Some I can tell by the style, some I only can guess at due to the signature, and the rest who knows. They didn't credit those things back then beyond the signature, so... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::Well, most of the issue pages appear to have the artists listed (albeit buried at the bottom of the page...), and I've just found [http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/transfor.htm this page], so I've been filling them in.
::One slightly problematic one though - [[:Image:MarvelUS-62.jpg|Marvel US #62]]. There's two signatures, but the only intelligible one is "Rod Ramos" (Rodney Ramos, who as far as I'm aware works mostly as an inker), and he's given as the artist on the issue page. The current image-page description lists Geoff Senior as the artist, and I can believe it - but I'm not 100% sure, and he inked himself on the interiors. Can anyone confirm? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:02, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Anti-troll ==

After another you-know-who rampage earlier, whatever happened to blacklisting "Detour" and "Fuck" from being used in page & user names, and requiring autoconfirmed priviliges to upload files? Was that a casualty of the Big Crash? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
:I think plans to upgrade/add plugins to the software have been put on hold while the cleanup too place and we got ready for moving to a new host (how far away are we from setting a date for that anyway?). Perhaps it's time to revisit installing the title blacklist plugin? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:47, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

== Advertising Idea ==

So, I came up with a fun idea for advertising the wiki IRL. I decided to make an Autobot propaganda poster with the TFWiki.net watermark that people could print out and post in the colleges or whatever nerdy hangouts they use. I've uploaded it to my Photobucket account, so have a look and let me know what you think of it: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/Semysane/TFWiki%20Ads/OptimusPropaganda01-Beta.png This is just a test to see if I could make it not look like crap; it's still a work in progress (ie: still crap). If a more talented person wants to have a go at making a better one, go at it. BTW, the Ancient Autobot text there says "Till All Are One" -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 22:20, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

:I think it looks pretty good. Certainly in very eye-catching colours. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:30, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
::Thank you! I'm thinking of making a Decepticon one as well. Any ideas on a slogan for that one? The Cons don't have many awesome ones like Till All Are One. "Transform and Rise Up" maybe? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:56, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

== <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> ==

I've made an alteration to <nowiki>{{mainpic}}</nowiki> that's going to start tracking how ''long'' (in months) these articles have lacked main pictures for. In theory this'll (eventually) give us a way to triage these neglected articles. In practice, the dates are starting from ''now'', so there's gonna be a whole mess of articles with '0' months. It'll sort itself out over time.

This depends on me running a maintenece program every couple of weeks FYI, that replaces all instances of <nowiki>{{mainpic}} with {{mainpic|date}}</nowiki>. We'll see how ''that'' works. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:58, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Marvel G2 issues ==

The G2 comic pages are listed under story titles (e.g., [[Dark Shadows!]] from G2 #11), but backup stories (in the case of G2 #11, "Tales of Earth Part Eight") are listed on the same pages.

Shouldn't the pages either be moved to a page named after the issue, the way the current UK Titan series appears to be treated, or else split along story lines? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:05, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|letters=|help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Human Error, Part I

2009-04-19T12:41:16Z

81.108.237.26: New page: So, wheres the synopsis?~~~~

So, wheres the synopsis?[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 08:41, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central

2009-03-30T15:25:46Z

81.108.237.26: /* Current status of the wiki */ new section

'''What happened''' 
TFWiki.net's database was [[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash|accidentally deleted in an attempt to upgrade the wiki-software]]. And due to a different software failure, the only existing backup was from June 2008. So one day we all logged in and saw that every article was nine months out of date. Our response was to raid [http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:tfwiki.net/wiki/ Google's cache] for more recent versions. The vast majority of articles have now been restored from there, but the Google-caching process has been an imperfect solution: Many articles are now up-to-date but badly-formatted, with garbled lines of code in plain view.

'''What needs to be done''' 
The ugliness needs to be fixed, and some articles still need to be restored from Google's cache. Some of the work can be automated, but much will have to be done by hand. See the "[[#Restoration|Restoration]]" section below for resources and advice.

'''Information outside of the wiki''' 
Immediately after the crash, discussion sprung up on these Allspark threads, and they have been a continuing source of information (especially as the wiki has been experiencing a lot of downtime lately):
* [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=56439 "TFWiki Problems, Any idea what's going on?"]
* [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51208&st=400&p=1155749&#entry1155749 "Major Wiki Work, A thread for additions to Transformers wikis."]

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=left id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''Damage Control Central Archives'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central/Archive1|Archive 1]] | [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central/Archive2|Archive 2]]
|} 

__TOC__

==Restoration==
Basically, if you see an article that looks messed-up, feel free to fix it.
===Useful Resources===
====Files====
If an article is still in its June 2008 state, there is probably a newer version that it should be restored to. Here are places to look:
* [http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:tfwiki.net/wiki/ The Google cache.] Add the name of the page you're looking for to the URL. (Don't click on the links in these pages; those will send you back here.)
As time goes on, the Google cache becomes less relevant because it overwrites itself with the current state of the articles. So several editors downloaded swaths of articles from the cache immediately after the crash:
* Suki Brits's unprocessed cache files: [http://www.scoutshonour.com/files/tfwikicache.tar.gz compressed archive] or [http://www.scoutshonour.com/tfwikicache/ individual downloads]
* G1MarvelBlaster's unprocessed cache files: [http://www.aldenbates.com/g1marvelblaster.zip compressed archive] or [http://www.fileqube.com/shfolder/180305DXXRbmdM individual downloads] (many articles beginning with "O" and "P" that are missing from Suki's cache)
* Lonegamer's unprocessed cache files: [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/lonegamers-cache.zip compressed archive] (lots of articles about Japanese stuff)
All of those files were converted by Google from wikicode to HTML. Since the wiki software doesn't understand most HTML, we have used some programs to try to convert the files back. Here are the results:
* Processed pages: [http://tfwiki.net/finished.zip compressed archive]
And here's a program to open all of these archives:
* [http://www.7-zip.org/ 7-Zip]

====HTML-to-wikicode processors====
Here are the programs we've been using to convert the files back to wiki-format:
* [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text2.php Derik's online HTML-to-wikicode processor, v2.5] (recommended)
* [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text2.php Derik's online HTML-to-wikicode processor, v3i] (only for specific tasks; see "[[#Too big to wikify?|Too big to wikifiy?]]" below)
* [http://www.aldenbates.com/htmltowiki Abates' online HTML-to-wikicode processor]
* [http://www.aldenbates.com/gallerizer Gallerizer] - converts <table class="gallery">s back into <gallery>s

===Fixing ugly pages===
The simplest thing to do when you see a page with broken code all over it is to call it out. Put the [[Template:Bookworm|Bookworm template]] at the top of the page, adding a severity-number and preferably a description of what's wrong. This will put the page in [[:Category:Recovery|a category]] so everyone can see that it needs to be fixed.

If you'd like to help repair the damage, you'll find that most of the problems with HTML failing to convert back to wikicode have to do with [[:Category:Templates|templates]]. Oftentimes a dozen lines of HTML can be replaced with a single "<nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki>" or "<nowiki>{{picsneeded}}</nowiki>". Some templates are more complicated, however. Those are explained in the [[#Template Code You Might Need|next section]].

The other big problem is [[Wikipedia:Help:Footnotes|references]]. These need to be re-created by hand via putting empty <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> tags in the proper places in the article, then picking out the actual reference from under the Footnotes/References section and sticking them in the Ref tags, then replacing the leftover messed-up code with the <nowiki><references/></nowiki> element. You may want to check against the unprocessed cache page to make sure it's all correct.

====Template Code You Might Need====
=====Breaking Lists Into Columns=====
<pre><nowiki>{{columnlist|(number of items per column)|
(list of items)}}</nowiki></pre>

=====Comic Issues=====
Items between "coverdate" and "continuity" should be customized to match the issue's actual credits and wikilinked to the person's name.
<pre><nowiki>{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=(wikilinked comic series the issue is part of)
|prev=(previous issue)
|next=(next issue)
|seriesissue2=(wikilinked second comic series the issue is also part of, if applicable)
|prev2=(previous issue in the second series, if applicable)
|next2=(next issue in the second series, if applicable)
|title=(title of the issue, if applicable)
|image=(cover image)
|caption=(caption for the cover image)
|publisher=(wikilink to the publisher)
|date=(month, day, and year the issue was released)
|coverdate=(month and year on the issue itself)
|writer=
|penciler=
|inker=
|colorist=
|letterer=
|editor=
|continuity=(wikilink to the continuity the issue takes place in)
}}</nowiki></pre>

=====Episodes=====
Items between "production company" and "animation studio" should be customized to match the episode's actual opening credits and wikilinked to the person's name.
<pre><nowiki>{{episode|
|series=(series the episode is in (codes: g1, headmasters, masterforce, victory,
zone, g2, beast wars ii, beast wars neo, beast machines, rid, armada, energon,
cybertron, animated))
|ep=(the episode number)
|prev=(previous episode)
|next=(next episode)
|series2=(second series the episode is in, if applicable (codes: g1, headmasters,
masterforce, victory, zone, g2, beast wars ii, beast wars neo,
beast machines, rid, armada, energon, cybertron, animated))
|ep2=(the second series episode number, if applicable)
|prev2=(previous episode in the second series, if applicable)
|next2=(next episode in the second series, if applicable)
|title=(title of the episode)
|japanese=(title in Japanese for Japanese-origin episodes, if applicable)
|romaji=(romanization of Japanese title)
|translation=(translation of Japanese title)
|image=(some representative image)
|caption=(caption for the image)
|production code=(episode's production code, if known)
|production company=(wikilink to the company that produced the episode)
|writer=
|director=
|animation studio=(wikilink to the studio that animated the episode)
|airdate=(the date the episode aired)
|continuity=(wikilink to the continuity the episode takes place in)
}}</nowiki></pre>

=====Featured Characters=====
First column is "Autobots", second is "Decepticons", third is "Humans", fourth is "Others", fifth is "Misc." These headers can be changed if needed by using |h1=(new header)|c1= in place of the c1=. Code sections with no characters in them can be deleted.
<pre><nowiki>{{featuredcharacters
|c1=

|c2=

|c3=

|c4=

|c5=

}}</nowiki></pre>

====="For Further Information"=====
Used whenever an article has had some of its sections separated into separate articles. 
'''<tt><nowiki>{{see|(title of separated section page)}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=====Image Galleries=====
Used to format lots of images into a swanky-looking table.
<pre><nowiki><gallery>
Image:(filename)|(caption)
</gallery></nowiki></pre>

====="See Main Article"=====
Whenever an article has had some of its sections separated into separate articles, this should be placed at the top of the separate articles to link them back to the page they were split from. 
'''<tt><nowiki>{{main|(title of main article)}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=====Specifying How an Article Should Be Sorted in Categories=====
For instance, if the article is named "Simon Furman", but you want it sorted as "Furman, Simon" in all categories. 
'''<tt><nowiki>{{DEFAULTSORT:(altered title)}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=====Speedy Delete=====
Slap this on any page that can definitely be deleted. Needless to say, don't stick this on a page unless you're absolutely certain it can be deleted! 
'''<tt><nowiki>{{speedy|(reason for delete)}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=====Stubs=====
*General: '''<tt><nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki></tt>'''
*Character pages: '''<tt><nowiki>{{charstub}}</nowiki></tt>'''
**Character pages that need fiction: '''<tt><nowiki>{{charstubfiction}}</nowiki></tt>'''
**Character pages that need toys: '''<tt><nowiki>{{charstubtoys}}</nowiki></tt>'''
*Comic issues: '''<tt><nowiki>{{issuestub}}</nowiki></tt>'''
*Episodes: '''<tt><nowiki>{{epstub}}</nowiki></tt>'''

=====Year Page Navigation=====
Puts a nice navigation box on the top of year pages. 
'''<tt><nowiki>{{yearofthe|(year)}}</nowiki></tt>'''

==Google Cache Pages==
===Saved===
*Main
*Template
*Help
*Transformers Wiki
*[http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/alltalkpages.txt Talk] 0000-0499, 8600-8921

====Exceptions====
{{collist|4|
*<s>[[Akari Hibino]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[All Fall Down (disambiguation)]]
*[[Charlie Bodin]]
*[[Cheyne]]
*[[Crown]]
*[[Cybertron Redux]]
*[[Deep Sea Discovery! Vector Prime]]
*[[Dirt Boss (disambiguation)]]
*[[Do Over]]
*[[El Greco]]
*[[Empire7]]
*[[End of the Road (Titan)]]
*[[Enter, Lio Convoy Typhoon]]
*[[Esther Scott]]
*[[Frederic Doss]]
*[[Fushigi Yamada]]
*[[Geonosis]]
*<s>[[Gods? Devils? The Pretenders]]</s>
*<s>[[Gutcruncher (G1)]]</s>
*[[Hasbro Q&A March 2009 question submissions]]
*<s>[[High Beam]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[Hochu Otsuka]]
*[[Insecticon Attack!]]
*[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]]
*<s>[[Kingbolt]]</s> - 100%
*<s>[[Linkage Part 13]]</s> - 100%
*<s>[[List of computers]]</s> - 100%
*[[Lloyd Goldfine]]
*<s>[[Matrix Quest (disambiguation)]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[Matrix Quest (Titan)]]
*[[May 26]]
*[[Maya Klayn]]
*[[Mini-Vehicle]]
*[[Mirage (disambiguation)]]
*[[Miroslaw Neinert]]
*[[Nightscream (Energon)]]
*<s>[[Nokia-bot]]</s>
*<s>[[Null ray]]</s>
*[[Odette Yustman]]
*<s>[[Optimus Primal toys]]</s>
*<s>[[Optimus Prime (Animated)]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Abates|abates]]
*[[Quick Bow]]
*[[Robot Masters (cartoon)]]
*<s>[[Robot Masters (pack-in comic)]]</s>
*<s>[[Scoop (G1)]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[Scoop (Shattered Glass)]]
*[[Seven]]
*[[Showdown (disambiguation)]]
*[[Slaves of the Insecticons]]
*[[Staff Sergeant Tracy]]
*[[Stag Swamp]]
*[[Stalker (G.I. Joe)]]
*<s>[[Studio 4˚C]]</s>
*[[Tentakil (disambiguation)]]
*<s>[[Terrorcon (disambiguation)]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[The Big Book of Coloring Fun]]
*[[The New Battle Begins!]]
*[[The Smashing Pumpkins]]
*<s>[[The Treacherous Attack of the Decepticons]]</s>
*<s>[[The Victory Warriors Enter!!]]</s> - 30% (stub) -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*<s>[[Thundercracker (Shattered Glass)]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[Tight Shot]]
*<s>[[Tlaloc]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*<s>[[Tsutomu Kashiwakura]]</s> - 100% -[[User:Derik|Derik]]
*[[Vector]]
}}

===Not Saved===
*[http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/alltalkpages.txt Talk] 0500-8599
*Template talk
*Help talk
*Transformers Wiki talk (non-Community Portal pages)

==New Discussion==
Probably the wrong place, but I have to ask this of those that handle coding/templates: Is it possible to fix the Recent Changes page to have the "View (newer 500) (older 500)" usable again? Just a thought. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 22:18, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

So... how does this work? Is it basically if I see a garbled page I should feel free to clean it up? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:02, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:Pretty much. If you see something that's really bad, (like the code's all & lt; and & gt; and stuff), try downloading the zip file of unprocessed cache files, going to Abates' converter, choosing the appropriate cache file, and running it through again. That should make it a little more managable. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:48, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

== Lost articles ==

I ran my updated script over all of the cache files, so I could restore the ones which didn't update properly the first time. However some of the cache files are blank. Crossed out ones I have redundant copies of.

{{collist|2|
*<s>[[Destined Confrontation - The Children of Good and Evil]]</s>
*<s>[[Endgame Pt. I: The Downward Spiral]]</s>
*<s>[[Endgame Pt. II: When Legends Fall]]</s>
*<s>[[Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future]]</s>
*<s>[[Generation_2]]</s>
*<s>[[Genesis: The Art of Transformers]]</s> 100% compliant
*<s>Heroic Legend</s>
*<s>[[Revelations Part I: Discovery]]</s>
*<s>[[Revelations Part II: Descent]]</s>
*<s>[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse]]</s>
}}

There were a couple of others, such as the Q&A which are already on the site, and I'm not sure which of the several "Heroic Legend" articles that one file is for, but perhaps someone has a copy of the other three? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:20, 20 March 2009 (EDT)
:The big unprocessed cache zip has:
*Heroic Legend: 2010 Wars
*Heroic Legend: Head On, Master Warriors!
*Heroic Legend: Optimus Prime VS Megatron!!
:Also, considering that the "proper" Generation 2 article is a redirect, and it looks like we have all of the other main G2 articles, I don't think we need to worry about that one. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:50, 20 March 2009 (EDT)
::Cool! And I just grabbed a copy of Destined Confrontation out of MSN's cache, so consider this section closed! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

===I have no idea where to ask about this===
Are we able to rescue stuff from namespace pages, like sandboxes? I had an article for Bata, maker of licensed transformer footwear, almost raedy to go before the thing. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:38, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:I was able to salvage the sandboxes that I made links to on my userpage-- because when google spidered my userpage, it saw links to them and spidered them.
:If not... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:41, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::That's about what I figured. Oh well. GOODBYE, SANDBALLS. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 16:57, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== Template Help ==
<strike>So the second series on "[[A Heroic Battle]]" just isn't showing up. Did I do the code wrong (although I could swear it looks right), or is the template still a little messed up?</strike>
:Never mind, I figured it out, although I should note that RiD, at least, doesn't seem to have the auto-prev and auto-next set up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:43, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Also, I'm still curious about the Wookiepedia template... should I just erase it if I come across it, for now? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:22, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

I see some of the spiffy new templates aren't working, like the new series of nameless characters templates (noname-nickname, etc.) and the faction icons. When I fix a page, should I restore those with the anticipation that the templates will return? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:34, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:That's what I've been doing. At least with the factions one (hopefully I got the faction names right!) Unfortunately I wasn't that familiar with the new nameless character templates, so I've been leaving them as "noname", and I guess once the templates have been sorted out, they'll be easy to spot by looking at the pages which link to noname. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:20, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::The big tar.gz has the "Nameless Characters" policy in it, as well as many other Help and Transformers Wiki files. I've been finding it useful for templates sometimes. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== When a page's code is totally effed... ==

I've discovered that when a page's code is totally effed by the import script, it can usually be re-condition by running it through ''my'' page filter script. (located [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text2.php? here])

The trick is to hit "wickify" not once, but TWICE. The second round ''generally'' sorts out most of the effed-uppingness. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:38, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:I tried that with [[Student]] and nothing changed. Are there different kinds of effed-ness? '''Thylacine 2000'''--[[Special:Contributions/74.73.131.210|74.73.131.210]] 14:11, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::I accuse you of doing it wrong. It made a signifigant difference when I did it.
#Open the student page in editing mode.
#Copy the text out.
#Paste the text into the top text field of the [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text2.php? Rewiki Text Page]
#Click "Wikify"
#Click "Wikify" '''again'''
#Copy the text back out of the bottom text field, and put it into the student article.
#Preview

When I did this, Student went from being a total mess to something with sections, working links and a garbled skeleton that was clearly a notice box at the top of the page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:41, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

== The big sweep ==

Okay- Deceptitran has a list of ~24,000 pages the wiki either has or thinks it OUGHT to have. (There's holes since this was compiled from imperfect lists, but it's what we've got.)

I'm getting ready to start coding a slow sweep over all the pages-- this will take several DAYS. The ''obvious'' edit to make is the removal of all the wikia links (which google has begun to notice.) Can anyone think of any other simple edits that should be added in that mix? (I want to be conservative and not fuck up the code even MORE than it already is.)

I'm probably gonna run a passive (no edits, much faster) sweep first and just try to figure out what pages are missing. -12:52, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:Big sweep is ~2% complete. Loss rate is around 1%. Good news-- most of the "lost" pages are false-positives. (Crap that got onto our paster page-lists by accidents.) ''actual'' flat-out missing pages seems closer to ~0.3%.
:(Of course, the estimate of what's missing is only as good as our original lists. And if they were on the original lists-- then they should have gotten backed up and restored, right?)
:It's something anyway. I'll post an actual list when the sweep finishes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:23, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

Excellent. Excellent excellent. There has just been waaaay too much screwed up stuff to take it on by hand. This is good to hear. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 14:28, 21 March 2009 (EDT)

''Can anyone think of any other simple edits that should be added in that mix?''
:'''Perhaps''', for the sake of argument, replace <nowiki>&lt; and &gt; with < and ></nowiki>? I realise the result wouldn't be ideal, but it would paper over a lot of cracks in one fell swoop. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:47, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::Getting the last of the Wikia links? I'm still finding 'em.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:31, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I second that both removing Wikia links and converting <nowiki>&lt; and &gt;</nowiki> are the two big ones. Converting over the simpler/more standard templates would also be a plus, but I'm not sure how possible that is without risking further mangling. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:Any line which looks like this:
:<code><nowiki><div style="border: 2px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); margin: 0pt auto 0.2em; padding: 2px; width: 90%; background-color: rgb(239, 239, 239); text-align: left;">'''Note:''' ''...''</div></nowiki></code>
:...can be turned into <nowiki>{{note|...}}</nowiki>. There are a ''lot'' of these. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:50, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::That nice-- except that's not what the Note template actually LOOKS LIKE int he page text. Either it's puer HTML, or the HTML's been escaped or... something, because Deceptitran isn't finding any instances of it when I run tests.
::Can someone find me an example page with the screwed-up "Note" template on it (currently or just in history) so I can figure out how to code a fix? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:54, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:::[http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Megatron_%28Movie%29&diff=prev&oldid=223119 My fixes for Movie Megatron's page]

:::For instance: <tt><nowiki>&lt;div style="width: 90%; margin: 0 auto .2em auto; background-color:#efefef; border: 2px solid #eeeeee; padding: 2px; text-align: left;"&gt;'''Note:''' ''[[Defiance]] changes the past relationship between Megatron and Optimus Prime as previously seen in IDW's Prime Directive prequel where they ruled side by side as equals. As presented here, Defiance establishes Optimus Prime as merely the leader of the Cybertronian science sector, and an underling to Megatron.''&lt;/div&gt;</nowiki></tt> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:42, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

===Sweep results===
<nowiki>*yawn*</nowiki> Good nap. 227 missing pages-- some of which is junk and not actually missing, some of which is stuck on Markons, etc. I see that ''some'' of this has been reccover while I slept, yay!
{{collist|3|
#[[']]
#[["]]
#[[(]]
#[[Ireneusz Załóg]]
#[[Jörmungandr]]
#[[Pick-Up (Bat-Robô)]]
#[[Rio Gráfica Editora]]
#[[1]]
#[[1984_media]]
#[[2]]
#[[3]]
#[[4]]
#[[6]]
#[[9]]
#[[A]]
#[[All Fall Down (disambiguation)]]
#[[Banjō Ginga]]
#[[Binbōgami]]
#[[Būpink]]
#[[Bumble Spud|Bumblespud]]
#[[C]]
#[[Charlie Bodin]]
#[[Cheyne]]
#[[Chōkon Power]]
#[[Crown]]
#[[Cybertron (planet)/Gallery]]
#[[Cybertron Redux]]
#[[Daisuke Gōri]]
#[[Dark Designs (Titan)]]
#[[Destined Confrontation: The Children of Good and Evil]]
#[[Do Over]]
#[[Doryū]]
#[[DreamMix TV World Fighters]]
#[[Dreamwave Generation One continuity]]
#[[Drench (Shattered Glass)]]
#[[Drift (episode)]]
#[[Drill Bit (Universe)]]
#[[Dropbox]]
#[[Dropshot (Shattered Glass)]]
#[[Dublin James]]
#[[Duel in the Labyrinth]]
#[[Dungeons & Dinobots]]
#[[Durguth]]
#[[Dutch]]
#[[Dynamo]]
#[[E]]
#[[Each One Fights...]]
#[[Echo Across the Galaxy! Bell of Love!!]]
#[[Empire]]
#[[End of the Maximals!?]]
#[[End of the Road (Titan)]]
#[[The Lio Convoy Typhoon Enters|Enter, Lio Convoy Typhoon]]
#[[Esther Scott]]
#[[F]]
#[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: The Comics]]
#[[Frederic Doss]]
#[[Fushigi Yamada]]
#[[Gairyū]]
#[[Geonosis]]
#[[Glen's grandmother]]
#[[Gōryū]]
#[[Grimlock (G1) toys]]
#[[H]]
#[[Hasbro Q & A]]
#[[Hasbro Q&A December 2008: Answers]]
#[[Hasbro Q&A December 2008: Question submission]]
#[[Hasbro Q&A March 2009: Answers]]
#[[Hasbro Q&A March 2009: Question submission]]
#[[Hitoshizuku Amaō]]
#[[Hōchū Ōtsuka]]
#[[Hoshinochō]]
#[[Hozumi Gōda]]
#[[I]]
#[[:Image:Autobots+Lets+Make+Out-1836.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Autobots+Lets+Make+Out-6341.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Autobots+Lets+Make+Out-7270.jpg]]
#[[:Image:BergerInc_Tanks&SolarPlant.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Blasterbluesop&mdance.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Coredevastator&prime.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Coremegs&wheeljack.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Dinobotislandratch&spark.jpg]]
#[[:Image:G1_-_Fastlane_&_Cloudraker_-_Boxart.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Gambitastro&crystals.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Gambitastrotrain&scream.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Gambittitans&cosmos.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Insectsyndromeprime&megs.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Jose+santacruz+menor.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Maketrackshoist&huffer.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Nergill_&_Troops.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Omegasupreme&creature.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Search4atelita&prime.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Tfalost&foundbulkheadhocky.gif]]
#[[:Image:Tud2bee&spikeembrace.jpg]]
#[[:Image:Universe_Soundwave&Space-Case_toy.jpg]]
#[[:Industrial Light & Magic]]
#[[:Insecticon Attack!]]
#[[J]]
#[[J. Falconer]]
#[[Jirō Saitō]]
#[[K]]
#[[Kakuryū]]
#[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]]
#[[Kenichirō Tanabe]]
#[[Kensō Katō]]
#[[Kenyū Horiuchi]]
#[[Kōhei Kowada]]
#[[Kōichi Tōchika]]
#[[Kōji Totani]]
#[[Kōji Yusa]]
#[[Kōki Kataoka]]
#[[Kōmoribreast]]
#[[Kōzō Shioya]]
#[[L]]
#[[Lloyd Goldfine]]
#[[M.A.R.B.]]
#[[Mantarō Iwao]]
#[[Masaharu Satō]]
#[[Masashi Endō]]
#[[Matrix Quest (Titan)]]
#[[Matrix Quest(Titan)]]
#[[May 26]]
#[[Maya Klayn]]
#[[Meltdown's Experiments]]
#[[Mini-Vehicle]]
#[[Mirosław_Neinert]]
#[[Momotarō]]
#[[Monster Maezuka]]
#[[Mujō]]
#[[Naoki Tatsuta]]
#[[Nobuyuki Saitō]]
#[[Odette Yustman]]
#[[Off-Road Cycle]]
#[[Ohio]]
#[[Omega Sentinel (disambiguation)]]
#[[Omega Terminus]]
#[[Onslaught (ROTF)]]
#[[Open Fire!]]
#[[Optimus (episode)]]
#[[Optimus Prime (Armada) toys]]
#[[Optimus Prime (Movie) toys]]
#[[Optimus Prime cookie jar]]
#[[Optimus Prime Oral Care Station]]
#[[Osamu Saka]]
#[[Overbite (Shattered Glass)]]
#[[Overlord - Terror of the Chōkon Tornado]]
#[[Overlord (rank)]]
#[[Owen Hurley]]
#[[P]]
#[[Pacific Ring of Fire]]
#[[Pack-in material]]
#[[Package art/Gallery]]
#[[Packaging]]
#[[Palace]]
#[[Panini]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 2]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 3]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 4]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 5]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 6]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 7]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 8]]
#[[Panini Armada issue 9]]
#[[Paper Magic Group]]
#[[Paradron communicator]]
#[[PARD]]
#[[Pīpō]]
#[[Press Release: Teletraan-1 Wikia moves to TFWiki.net]]
#[[Professor Gō]]
#[[Q]]
#[[Quick_Bow]]
#[[R]]
#[[Rairyū]]
#[[Ratchet's_EMP_generator]]
#[[Reverb_(Cybertron)]]
#[[Robot_Masters_(cartoon)]]
#[[Ryō Naitō]]
#[[Ryōichi Tanaka]]
#[[Ryōka Yuzuki]]
#[[Sanryō Odaka]]
#[[Save_the_Little_Girl!_The_Chōjin_Warriors,_the_Godmasters]]
#[[Scoop_(Shattered_Glass)]]
#[[Seizō Katō]]
#[[Shinichirō Miki]]
#[[Shizuku Amaō]]
#[[Shōhei Kohara]]
#[[Shōji Kawamori]]
#[[Shōki]]
#[[Showdown_(disambiguation)]]
#[[Shūta Gō]]
#[[Slaves_of_the_Insecticons]]
#[[Smith_(disambiguation)]]
#[[Staff_Sergeant_Tracy]]
#[[Street_Action_Mini-Con_Team|Street_Action_Mini-Con_Team_(Armada)]]
#[[Takurō Kitagawa]]
#[[Talk:Hot_Shot_(Unicron_Trilogy)]]
#[[Teiyū Ichiryūsai]]
#[[Teletran-1:_The_Transformers_Wiki:About]]
#[[Template-episodenav-dev]]
#[[Tesshō Genda]]
#[[The_Big_Book_of_Coloring_Fun]]
#[[The_New_Battle_Begins!]]
#[[The_Smashing_Pumpkins]]
#[[The_Treacherous_Attack_of_the_Decepticons]]
#[[Tight_Shot]]
#[[Toaster_bot]]
#[[Transformers_Mix_&_Match]]
#[[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Cache_Recovery]]
#[[Transformers_Wiki:WikiaBotTests]]
#[[Transformers:_Binaltech_&_TF_Collection_Complete_Guide]]
#[[Trevor_Hutchison]]
#[[Ultra_Magnus_(Universe_Spy_Changer)]]
#[[Ultra_Magnus...to_the_Rescue?]]
#[[Units_of_time/Continuity]]
#[[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox]]
#[[Vector]]
#[[Yōichi Kobiyama]]
#[[Yōji Ietomi]]
#[[Yōko Kawanami]]
#[[Yokuryū]]
#[[Yūgo Ōgami]]
#[[Yūji Kishi]]
#[[Yūji Mikimoto]]
#[[Yūki Ōshima]]
#[[Yūsaku Yara]]
#[[Yūto Kazama]]
#[[Yukiyoshi Ōhashi]]
#[[Yumi Tōma]]
}}

:I've recovered a bunch of those from Google's cache. Many of them are malformed because they have accents (I already went through and reuploaded as many of the accented articles as I could find). A chunk in the middle from [[Off-Road_Cycle]] to [[PARD]] are in G1MarvelBlaster's saved cache stuff. Mini-Vehicles is at [[Mini Vehicles]], Ultra Magnus...to the Rescue? is at [[Ultra Magnus... to the Rescue?]]. I started trying to look for the remaining legit lost articles on yahoo and MSN, but I don't have any more time to work on it tonight. One of the message board people who saved stuff may have some of them? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:06, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

====Filtering the sweep results====
So, just from that list, once you take out (1) the links which have gone blue and (2) obvious errors of one sort or another (as well as the single-character stuff, the Teletran-1...About page was deleted '''after''' the big crash, f'rinstance. I stuck a <nowiki>{{speedy}}</nowiki> on it myself), that leaves these as actual pages which are ''completely missing'', yes? [Not swearing none of these were redirects/etc - if they were, please send them to where they're meant to go and remove them from this list, huh? I've left the disambigs, tho.]

{{collist|3|
#[[Charlie Bodin]] (minor role in live-action movie - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1835107/ )
#[[Cheyne]] (<nowiki>Unrecoverable. Yahoo doesn't have cache, but a search says "The planet Cheyne was one of several worlds explored by the Autobots ... Retrieved from "http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cheyne" Categories: Generation 1 | Planets ..."</nowiki>)
#[[Crown]] (unrecoverable)
#[[Digital Dagger]] (Unrecoverable. [[T.E.C.H.]] toy from first movie's toyline)
#[[End of the Maximals!?]]
#[[End of the Road (Titan)]] (Unrecoverable.)
#[[Esther Scott]]
#[[Frederic Doss]]
#[[Fushigi Yamada]]
#[[Geonosis]]
#[[Hasbro Q&A March 2009: Question submission]]
#[[Insecticon Attack!]]
#[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]]
#[[Lloyd Goldfine]]
#[[Matrix Quest (Titan)]] (Unrecoverable.)
#[[May 26]] (Unrecoverable. Yahoo gives it as a result in a search, but no useful info)
#[[Maya Klayn]]
#[[Odette Yustman]]
#[[Robot Masters (cartoon)]]
#[[Scoop (Shattered Glass)]]
#[[Slaves of the Insecticons]]
#[[Smith (disambiguation)]]
#[[Staff Sergeant Tracy]]
#[[The Big Book of Coloring Fun]]
#[[The Smashing Pumpkins]]
#[[Tight Shot]] (Unrecoverable. [[T.E.C.H.]] toy from first movie's toyline)
#[[Ultra Magnus (Universe Spy Changer)]]
#[[Vector]]
#[[Yukiyoshi Ōhashi]]
}}

63 pages as I type... obviously, this doesn't take account of stuff which exist but was reverted, but... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 16:42, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:There are certainly more-- this list was generated by from lists of pages from ABates and FortMax we think we're SUPPOSED to have. (and thus pages we were trying to save the cache of.) Literally this is more a compilation of- "Stuff we KNEW we had to save we either fucked up on, or there was no cache of."
:If a page wasn't on the lists in the first place (for a variety of reasons) then it's not gonna be there. Sorta "Known Unknowns" vs. "Unknown Unknowns." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:27, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, I figured that out pretty quickly after I typed that when I noticed the number of redlinks on extant pages vs. blue links on cached pages, especially around the Japanese stuff (half of the Beast Wars Neo episode articles appear to be gone, for instance). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:33, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Lonegamer has many (if not all, I dunno) of the Beast Wars Neo episodes in her [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/lonegamers-cache.zip saved caches], as well as lots of other Japanese article-related stuff, as I posted here earlier, for those folks who typically work on the Japanese articles. *hint*nudge*kick* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:20, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::::The vast majority of the ''Neo'' episode articles were just skeletons and are available on the Other Place. It's not really that big of a deal. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::So what's the possibility of pulling old versions of these pages from the Wikia version, i.e. the current versions as of when we left? -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 18:45, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::::::Those (currently) 30 pages? Virtually nil - they're all redlinks over there except [[End of the Maximals!?]], which is a virtually-empty shell. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:57, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::::ISTR I added [[Kazuhiko Gōdo]] and [[Yukiyoshi Ōhashi]] less than a week before the Event, so I'm not surprised they're unrecoverable. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

===And so it Begins...===
Deceptitraan has begun to do an edit sweeps. I'm calling this "Pass 1." He will ATTEMPT to;
* Remove the wikia spam
* Fix the <nowiki>{{factions}}</nowiki> template
* properly format the <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki>'s
* Fix <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki>s
This is going to be at least fourteen '''thousand''' edits, minimum. It's gonna take awhile. (The 'what's missing' sweep was 20-100 times faster because it didn't have to post edits.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:11, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:While I think of it, I'm gonna add those filters to my page-fixer tool too. Let me knwo if that cause it to glitch. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:21, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:On-the-fly change-- Deceptitran is now also fixing links like <nowiki>[[Slumdog]]</nowiki> to simply read <nowiki>[[Slumdog]]</nowiki>. (The import script rendered ''everything'' as a two-part link.)
:I'll go back and re-check the 500-or-so articles already edited for this after. '''Note to self:''' ''The articles I want to re-check are the ones lacking flag2 in the database.'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:10, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::Three little points, based on a '''tiny''' sample of Deceptitran's edits:
::#Careful which side of the <nowiki>[[x]]</nowiki> links you grab. The general rule seems to be that the left hand side always has the first letter capitalised, and I've seen a couple of pages where <nowiki>[[continuity family]] has become [[Continuity family]]</nowiki> when the "c" should have stayed small.
:::Just inadvertently confirmed, because Deceptitran filtered THIS page! (i.e., the "links" above". I reverted :)) It indeed took the capitalised left-hand side. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 01:13, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::#Can you grab the equivalent <nowiki>{{storylink}}</nowiki>s while you're at it? There's a lot of <nowiki>{{storylink|x|x}}</nowiki>s too for much the same reason.
::#On [[Buzzsaw (Cybertron)]], the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Buzzsaw_(Cybertron)&diff=prev&oldid=223597 <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> initially got messed up]. I think it's an edge case, since others seem to have gone through okay, but something to watch if you haven't fixed it.
::Otherwise, keep up the good work :) *wonders aloud if this might fix the article-counting problem - if a page gets edited, or even null-edited, it gets readded to the numbering if it's slipped out, doesn't it?* - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 00:25, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

::What voodoo are you using to spot <nowiki>[[Slumdog]]</nowiki> links? I couldn't get that one worked out. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:37, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I ''was'' using a callback-- /\[\[(.+)\|(\1)\]\]/i --> [[$2]].
:::''Find all links where the second term is the same as the first term, using case-insensitive match, and use the second term.'' (I was originally using the first, oops.)
:::Problem is I eventually realized that would turn links to <nowiki>[[Energon Cube|energon cube]] into [[energon cube]]</nowiki>, and only the ''first letter'' can be insensitive. :p
:::Now I'm using a callback function. Like killing flies with a nuke. (And I'm gonna use this page to test that callback.) *sets up some bad links.* -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:42, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
* [[Energon Cube|energon cube]] - no
* [[energon cube]] - yes
* [[energon Cube]] - yes
* [[energon Cube]] - yes
* [[energon cube|energon Cube]] - no
::::Woohoo! It parsed 'em all right, we are good to go!
::::It looks like I ran about 700 pages through the bad version of the filter but... I have a hard time making myself care. That's about 1.2% of our pages, and 98% of the time the difference between the two types of links will be nil or cosmetic. It's '''right''' going forward, but I'm not going back to fix the others.
::::Also, I looked at the buzzsaw link you posted-- the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> part got rewiki'd perfectly! It's just that it had a leftover HTML link in it!
::::There's like 50 variants of <a href=""> on the site right now because browsers tended to save the files as THEY thought they looked.
::::Open a page in firefox and hit "view source." Now highlight a chunk of a page and right-click "view source." '''THE CODE IS DIFFERENT'''. The right-click gives you the HTML as it's been shuffled around by the geko rendering engine, which puts all the classes, titles, hrefs and so on in the SAME ORDER, regardless of what their sequence was in the original HTML.
::::I figure there's gonna be some MONSTER link-parsing function that takes all of this into account for another sweep after this. :p (at which point the anchor tag within that perfectly valid <nowiki>{{note}{</nowiki> template would be correctly wikified.)
::::There's nothing wrong with the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> filter-- it's just that it ''only'' does <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki>s. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:57, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::FYI, the "BIG SWEEP" is just under 20% complete. About 4000 pages has been edited by Deceptitran, removing wikia spam, fixing links and a couple common templates. Hit "show bots" in recent changes to see him in action! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:42, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== Lonegamer's Cache ==

Lonegamer sent me all of her browser cache files the other day. I've already reposted a few I can recognize as being ones we lost, but there's some other possibly useful stuff in here, lots of Japanese episode and manga-related stuff, especially. I link to it for those who might need such things: http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/lonegamers-cache.zip --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:30, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:Fantastic! I was able to use some of the files from here to fix a bunch of articles. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:33, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

== G1MarvelBlaster's cache saves ==

It doesn't look like these were part of the original upload of files: [http://www.fileqube.com/shfolder/180305DXXRbmdM]. I can't seem to download the files though. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:19, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:I just downloaded [[Omega bomb]] cache article. Seems to be working alright. Is there some reason why people decided to not upload the files to scout's server so they could be restored en-mass? It seems to me that some people deciding to upload files elsewhere is the reason for so many articles not being updated. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:41, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::I know there was a problem with Scout's FTP being down at one point, so it's possible people decided to upload elsewhere during that time. (I personally had just uploaded the pages right after saving as a backup, before Scout set up her FTP, but I offered to reupload if needed... no one told me to, however.)
::I will note that G1MarvelBlaster and other folks linked to their uploads in the original finish summary, though, so they did inform that they uploaded it somewhere else. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:04, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::I managed to get [[Paradron communicator]] out by hitting download, copying and pasting the HTML code into a file, saving the file, and then processing it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:38, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:So does someone want to volunteer to grab these and reprocess them? You can skip all the October files, since I think Derek did those, and several of the Optimus Prime ones have already been done. Should be around 160 in total. I'd do it, but I have 600+ articles which are [[Gort|messes]] to try to reprocess. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:23, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::I'm starting to work on these. I'm currently running them through your conversion script and then pasting the code into the Wiki page. Is this the fastest method?--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:26, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

===Zip file===
[http://www.aldenbates.com/g1marvelblaster.zip Here is a 1MB zip file] containing 131 of the cache files. I've left out the ones which I know for sure have already been updated. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:16, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:I've tried to download it, but what I get is only 403 bytes and contains no files. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:31, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::His link was incorrect. He had a b instead of a v in G1Marvelblaster. The link is fixed now and I've already done the first 10 files in the zip. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 18:32, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:::D'oh! Thanks for that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:55, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Thanks! It works fine for me now. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:22, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::::No problemo. Updating my status as having the first <s>20</s> 65 files complete (Octopunch to <s>Omega_Supreme_(Animated)</s> Origin). Yay, halfway there.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 21:55, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

== Why are we blocking the Wayback Machine? ==

I accidentally hit the Wayback Machine rather than MSN when I was trying to grab the cache for a page there, and was informed that:
:''We're sorry, access to http://tfwiki.net/wiki/End_of_the_Road_(Titan) has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.''
Wha-huh?! - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:34, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:There was nothing in our robots.txt that ''should'' stop the Internet Archive from viewing us, but there also wasn't anything useful in it anyway, so I've deleted the file. That's weird. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 12:02, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::It's probably Archive.org's default answer-string for "I don't have it."
::Just like YouTube video player informs you a video is no longer available even if it it's just having a timeout error. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:22, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:::No, the default is simply "Sorry, no matches" ([http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://news.bbc.co.uk/thispagedoesnotexist example]) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:01, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::I believe the Wayback Machine's crawlers simply look for the presence of a robots.txt and not the content of it. At least that's the impression I've gotten from using the Wayback Machine.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 13:15, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

==Page shrinkage==
I took a stab at cleaning up the loose code on [[Galvatron (G1)]], restoring quotes and notes and whatnot, and now the page seems to be half its normal width. Uh, help? I mentioned this in the Summary box too, but for some reason it didn't appear in Recent Changes. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 14:17, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

== Too big to wikify? ==

I have attempted to convert [[Optimus Prime (Armada)]] a few times, as recovering that will let us split the toy section out again. It seems to choke Derik's tool, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:52, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:Do it section-by-section. [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text2.php Derik's tool] DOES have an upper limit, but if you put it through in smaller chunks, it'll work. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:56, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::I've restored the toy page from G1MarvelBlaster's cache version. I'd suggest getting Optimus Prime (Armada) from there too, as it looks like that might be a more up-to-date version than was originally imported here. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:29, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

Incidentally, [http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Ftfwiki.net%2Fwiki%2FOptimus_Prime_(Armada)_toys Optimus Prime (Armada) toys] is still in Google's cache in its' own right. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:27, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
:It's in G1MarvelBlaster's archive of cache files too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:36, 22 March 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, my took is kinda hacky. I didn't know about the limit... but it doesn't surprise me. I've got an AWFUL LOT of "match everything" Regex's set to Multiline mode, with callbacks. Enough KB of text probably cause that to choke. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:38, 22 March 2009 (EDT)

I noticed Sanity or Madness pulling his hair out over all the garbled talk pages-- both too long for my tool and indented which it doesn't handle.

Well it handles indents now. And '''especially or talk pages''' [http://emopanda.com/motormouth/rewiki_text3i.php Version 3i]. It just does indents and headers, so it can filter long pages. (You'll still have to break 'em up to fix everything else, but at least now they're more comprehensible when you try to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:18, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== Working on scrambled pages ==

Some of the pages ended up completely scrambled - IE no HTML conversion and, you'll note, no categories. I've been restoring as many of them as I can, but some of the original cache files have really strange line breaks in them, often in the middle of HTML tags and both mine and Derik's scripts pretty much choke on them. I went through the articles on my list which start with the letter 'D' tonight, saving new copies of them from Google, Yahoo and MSN, however I couldn't recover these four:

{{collist|2|
*<s>[[Decepticon detector]]</s>
*<s>[[Decepticon medic (Devil's Due)]]</s>
*<s>[[Decepticons at the Pole]]</s>
*<s>[[Deepdive]]</s>
}}

So if anyone has spare copies of these, please speak up! :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:46, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:Done, I think. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 05:34, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::Woo! Cool! Having done a mass process of the rest of the files on my list, the following three are the only ones I couldn't retrieve from caches:
:*<s>[[Safeguard (Cybertron)]]</s>
:*<s>[[Safeguard Team]]</s>
:*<s>[[Salvage (Recyclon)]]</s>
::It looks like the other 510 files processed all right, so now I just have to go through them all and paste them into the articles on teh Wiki --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:45, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:::What did you code your tool in anyway? Do you want copies of my PHP callbacks?
:::I really think Sweep #2 is just going to require a "Find an <a> tag, now pick it apart and put it back together no matter what order the fucker is in." function. Admittedly, this is more-or-less how I wrote the indenter-- it's a progressive parser, just like the Bad Old Days of write-it-yourself XML parsers. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:40, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::::It's coded in Perl. Sure, a copy of the callbacks would be useful, thanks!
::::I never could get the indenting right - it doesn't help that the HTML MediaWiki generates doesn't seem to close its <nowiki><li></nowiki> tags all of the time. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:02, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::This is PHP not perl, but the basic concept applies...
<pre>function fixIndents($wiki_text){
$lines = explode("\n", $wiki_text);
$new_text = '';
$options = array( 'down' => '<dl>',
'up' => '</dl>',
'new_sib' => '<dd>',
'end_sib' => '</dd>'
);

$indent = 0;
foreach($lines as $line){
$evaluate_line = true;
$offset = 0;
while ($evaluate_line){
$position = null;
$mode = null;
foreach ($options as $mode_type => $option){
$loc = strpos($line, $option, $offset); //I'm pretty sure $offset is always 0 when it hits this line.
if ($loc !== false){
if (($position === null) || ($loc < $position)){
$position = $loc;
$mode = $mode_type;
}
}
}//End Options
if ($position !== null){
//echo "$mode";
$offset = ($position);
switch ($mode){
case 'down':
$indent++;
$replacement = '';
break;
case 'up':
$indent--;
$replacement = '';
break;
case 'new_sib':
$indent2 = $indent;
if ($indent2 < 0) $indent2 = 0;
$replacement = str_pad('',$indent2,':');
break;
case 'end_sib':
$replacement = '';
break;
}
$line = substr_replace( $line, $replacement, $offset, strlen($options[$mode]) );
$offset=0;
} else {
$evaluate_line = false;
// echo $line;
}
}//Endline
//$problems = array();
//$problems[strpos($line,$begin_parent)];
$new_text .= $line;
}
$wiki_text = $new_text;
$wiki_text = str_replace( '', "\n\n", $wiki_text );
$wiki_text = str_replace( '', '', $wiki_text );
$wiki_text = str_replace( "\n", '', $wiki_text );
return $wiki_text;
}</pre>I break it up line-by-line just o to reduce overhead.
Then I scan for DL's and DD's, looking for which is "next." If I encounter a DL, I add one to the #of indents. (DL means you're going 'down' a level, <DL means you're going up one.) The DL and /DL tage themselves you can just erase then.

They each DD represents the start of a new line- which has to be indented with the correct number of :'s (which has been going up and down every time we wan into a DL or /DL.) So i replace the DD with, for example "::::" (four indents.) You can just erase the /DD's.

It sounds really stupid, but it works perfectly. My messy code is really just a reflection of the fact it has to be de-parsed using a state machine instead of stateless regular expressions. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:37, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
===Callbacks===
====Link callback====
<pre>preg_replace_callback('/<a href="(.+(#.+)?)"( class="(.+)")? title="(.+)"( rel="(.+)")?>(.+)<\/a>/Ui' , 'fixLinks' );

function fixLinks($matches){
$url = $matches[1];
$anchor = $matches[2];
$specialClass = $matches[4];
$title = $matches[5];
$prettyText = $matches[8];
$returning = '';
if (($title.$anchor) == $prettyText){
$returning = "[[$prettyText]]";
}else{
//Text is different
$returning = "[[$title$anchor|$prettyText]]";
}

if ($specialClass == 'external text'){
$returning = "[$title $prettyText]";
}
return $returning;
}
/* ===========================================================================
Note that this will still return [[Energon cube|energon cube]] because it doesn't
treat the first character as caseless-- but the NEXT callback will fix that...
This function will also correctly parse Wikipedia links, Wookiepedia links, and
external links. Yay!
=============================================================================== */

preg_replace_callback('/\[\[(.+)\|(\1)\]\]/iU' , 'fixLinks2' ); //\1 is a mid-pattern callback to the first() subpattern. "If the text is the same withotu case, refer the link to the callback function."

function fixLinks2 ($matches) {
$one = $matches[1];
$two = $matches[2];
if ( substr($one,1) == substr($two,1)){
return '[[' . $two . ']]';
} else {
return '[[' . $one . '|' . $two . ']]';
}
} //Literally just compares substrings excluding the first character, LOL.
</pre>

...all 3 of these came from, different script files, oddly enough. I don't have ONE script that does them all. ;)
====Header callback====
<pre>preg_replace_callback( '/<a name=".+"><\/a><h([123456])>\[<a href=".+" title="Edit section:.+">edit<\/a>\]<\/span> (.+)<\/span><\/h[123456]>/Ui' , 'fixHeaders');

function fixHeaders($matches){
$padding = str_pad( '', $matches[1], '=');
return $padding . $matches[2] . $padding . "";
} //How many ='s? Just count the number on the tag! 1 for H1, 6 for H6.</pre>

Hope that's helpful. Is perl Ecmascript? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:53, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:It's from the same family tree as PHP and Ecmascript. The syntax is very similar, in fact! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:55, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
====Link rewriting code====
Derik! In case it's helpful, here's my latest code for rewriting the links:
<pre>sub fixlinks {
my $str=shift;
my $pos=0;
while(substr($str,$pos) =~ /(<a ([^>]*?)>(.*?)<\/a>)/i) {
$wholelink=$1;
$builtlinkcode="";
$linkcode=$2;
$text=$3;
$pos=index($str,$wholelink)+1;
next if($linkcode =~ /name=/i); # skip <a name=
$class=""; $title=""; $url="";
$class=$1 if($linkcode =~ /class="(.*?)"/i);
$title=$1 if($linkcode =~ /title="(.*?)"/i);
$url=$1 if($linkcode =~ /href="(.*?)"/i);
if($class eq "extiw") { # interwiki, usually to Wikipedia
if($url =~ /\#(.*)$/) {
$title.='#'.$1;
}
$builtlinkcode = "[[$title|$text]]";
} else {
if($class =~ /^external/i) { #external link
$builtlinkcode = "[$url]" if($class =~ /external autonumber/i);
$builtlinkcode = "[$url $text]" if($class =~ /external text/i);
} else {
if($url =~ /\#(.*)$/) {
$title.='#'.$1;
}
$firstletter=substr($text,0,1);
$matching=((substr($title,1) eq substr($text,1))&&($title =~ /^$firstletter/));
$title = ':'.$title if($title =~ /^(Image|Category)/i);
$builtlinkcode="[[$title]]" if($matching);
$builtlinkcode="[[$title|$text]]" if(!$matching);
}
}
substr($str,index($str,$wholelink),length($wholelink))=$builtlinkcode;
}
$str;
}</pre>

No more <nowiki>[[boing|boing]]</nowiki> links! :P --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:57, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:OK, not quite perfect yet, but it catches most of them! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:33, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== Faction template ==

Faction template is ''working'', but someone (preferably not me,) needs to go in and fill in all the icons again or it's gonna start sprewing garbate all over page titles. Only a medium level of template competence is require,d it's all copy-and-paste.
# Go here[[Template:Factions/icons]].
# Starting with the Maximal/Predacon entries as a model, add all the other factions.
You can find all the names to use and the image files that go when them only ''slightly'' garbled in the table here; [[Template:Factions]].

Just copy and paste as swap out the names. Volunteers? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:Well, now I know why I've never seen it working... why DOES it require JavaScript? It isn't hard to specify an absolute position to place in the header using CSS alone, surely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:52, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

:<Raises hand> I'll do it! Shouldn't take me more than a couple hours, if that. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 13:57, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

And it's done. All the symbols in the list Derik linked to have been added to the template. I've verified that all the images are working with one exception: the Blendtron logo. I tried the filename listed on the linked list as well as the [[Blendtron]] page and neither shows up. I'm not sure if the image file listed for predaconrid is right or not. Is it supposed to be the same as the Beast Wars Predacon? Also, some of the mouseover text may need to be changed in order to restore Teh Funny. I can do that myself if someone can provide me with a list of what needs to be tweaked. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 16:32, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:I didn't think we had funny mouseovers on these things.
:Thanks for the work, it was nice not to be attacking it on my own-- I'll take s look at the files to see if some are missing.
:Answering Sanity||Madness's question... absolutely-positioned CSS is unideal because it can obscure long titles. Unlikely to happen with character names... but for some unnamed characters with descriptive titles it could happen. With Javascript everything is inline and will wrap correctly if it gets cramped. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:21, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::You're welcome. The reason I ask about funny stuff is because of the articles/mouseover text present in the [[Template:Factions]] list. Specifically, Mutants links to 'Filthy muties', Cobra to 'Can the world oppose deadly Eskimos?' and Go-Bots to 'Go GO GO-BOTS!'. I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be part of the template or not, considering none of those pages exist.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 21:02, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

==Bookworm template==
I'd like to use Derik's [[Template:Bookworm|Bookworm template]] to help organize the restoration process as I edit individual pages to varying degrees of completion. But I think a few improvements could go a long way toward making it more relevant, and for the sake of not cluttering this page up, I've [[Template talk:Bookworm#Improvement suggestions|suggested my ideas on its Talk page]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:13, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
:TBH, I'm not sure what the point of using that template is any more... why bother with stages instead of just going ahead and completely cleaning up any messed-up pages you come across? Saves everyone's time that way. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:23, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

::Hmm, I already have a list of all pages at "stage 1" (imported, but needs reconverting.), which I'm slowly getting though.
::The tricky ones are those at "stage 0" and identifying which ones should have been updated but weren't (I noticed [[Money Is Everything]] wasn't). Sometimes these are pages which were moved between June last year and now, so the cache version has been uploaded at a different place (All the Reign of Starscream issues). Sometimes it was deleted between June and now.
::So I suspect that if you come across what looks like a legit content page, and it has a Wikia link at the bottom, and you don't know why it hadn't been updated, it might be handy to slap a bookworm template on it? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:06, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

:::Makes sense to me. In answer to Jeysie's question, the value is that I don't always have the time to patiently untangle garbled code, but seldom am I so harried that I can't put a template on a page. And even if I ''do'' have a decent amount of time, the work isn't always worth it at the moment. For instance, I'm restoring Community Portal archives right now, and at first the convertor was messing up the thread-indentation. This was both a minor problem and a major amount of work to fix, so I didn't want to devote the time yet, but I did want to leave an obvious trail so it could be taken care of later when the time was right (or ignored in perpetuity if nobody ended up caring, but at least people would know the issue existed). The Bookworm template, with an option for a comment, would've been perfect. Now, all that having been said, this issue no longer exists, as I've discovered that the other convertor handles indentation fine. But it's hard for me to imagine that there are ''no'' other problems like this scattered throughout our thousands of pages. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:36, 23 March 2009 (EDT)
::::I guess I figure... I'd rather just be patient and work on things one-by-one... if I come across a page that'll take a while I just dig into it and work on it in bits until I'm done with it, then move on. I'd rather just fix pages as I come across them instead of slapping a template on it and hoping someone else will do it.
::::But if it's a problem where someone really can't figure out the coding, then maybe some of us who are more wikicode-familiar can offer to help. I'm willing to have anyone who comes across a page they totally can't figure out dump a link to it on my talk page. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:48, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

::::I agree with Jackpot -- when we come across an article that's just a trainwreck, we need a way to mark it as such. Frankly, I'm not prepared to take on a mess like [[Greg Sepelak]]'s article, but I hate leaving it unmarked. A way to designate "needs major work" would be handy. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 08:03, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::<nowiki>*cough*</nowiki> Done. I just ran the cache page back through Abates' converter, which did the lion's share of the work, tweaked what didn't get fixed, and posted it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:11, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::Addendum: Now, references... I will say that '''those''' suck. *stares at the 2K7 movie page with a sigh and puts it on her to-do list after some sleep* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:22, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

:::::I have a big list of the trainwrecks. Current count: 425 articles, all starting with the letters G, R, or S (LOTS beginning with S), and I've been working at it nightly. I expect to be finished sometime this weekend. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:39, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

:::''So I suspect that if you come across what looks like a legit content page, and it has a Wikia link at the bottom, and you don't know why it hadn't been updated, it might be handy to slap a bookworm template on it?''

:::I'm going to repeat this suggestion, because I've noticed a couple of incidents of people removing the wikia crap from pages, but the reason those pages weren't updated was because they were moved before the data loss and they exist under a different name. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:04, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Still agreed, and on a slight tangent: We should encourage the immediate purging of any Wikia-link on sight, but that may be the only obvious indication that a page is massively outdated or occupying a mistranslated namespace or whatever. So rather than feel obligated to deduce the true nature of the page and restore it every time we remove that bread-crumb, we should feel free to slap a <tt><nowiki>{{bookworm|0}}</nowiki></tt> on it and move along. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:31, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

== To Anyone Who Works on Marvel US Pages Before I Do... ==

While double-checking links on the main Marvel US page, I noticed that some of the Marvel US pages seem to be sporting the original comicnav... which means they either didn't update properly or the Google cache was old, as I know I updated them all to the Comicstory template. Just an FYI. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:58, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:[[Yesterday's Heroes!]], for instance? I'm guessing it got uploaded at the wrong name and someone tagged it for deletion without moving the code over? Also [[Ca$h and Car-nage!]] is now an article about the [[Byacrane]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:44, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
::In fairness, kids do need to learn more about Byacrane. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:30, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

==Macron issues==
Currently, the Wiki is containing two pages of every article with a macron in its title. One with the macron properly over the letter, and one with the two characters separate. (I.e., the regular version has ō as G%C5%8 in the url. The fucked up version has it as o%CC%84.) I don't know how to handle this issue, since clicking on the title with the characters separate just takes you to the page with the characters together. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Go%CC%84ryu%CC%84&diff=prev&oldid=201806 Their individual diffs can be accessed, though.] Perhaps somebody with a old browser that doesn't support the macron sign can fix it? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 06:25, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:I don't think an older browser will make any difference - the redirect is occurring at the server end. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:35, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, that's annoying. I guess somebody with the ability will have to dig through the Wiki's drive to delete them. Scout, I guess? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 08:22, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm, I wonder what would happen if you tried moving one of the affected pages (not that I'm suggesting anyone try this, at least until we have backups working).
:::My gut instinct is to say we should leave it as a problem until we're back up and running at 100%, since it doesn't seem to be stopping anything from working. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:00, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't have a problem with prioritization; I just put this up so I wouldn't forget about it later. The one and only problem arising from them (other than taking up space) is that they show up in categories. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:03, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

== Updating the page counter ==

Not critical I understand, but when we initially did the migration the counter could be corrected by a script an admin could run if I recall.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:15, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

== References ==

While there's obviously no way to fully automate these, I do wonder if there's some way to automatically make them more readable.

Like being able to turn:

<tt><nowiki>[[#cite_note-0|[1]]]</nowiki></tt>

into:

<tt><nowiki><ref>1</ref></nowiki></tt>

Or turn:

<tt><nowiki>[[#cite_note-lorenzoiesb-16|[17]]]</nowiki></tt>

into:

<tt><nowiki><ref name="lorenzoiesb">17</ref></nowiki></tt>

Then at the bottom, turn:

<tt><nowiki><li id="cite_note-0">[[#cite_ref-0|↑]] The movie had some content cuts to meet the standards of some <strike>oppressive regimes</strike> quaint "developing world" rating boards.</nowiki></tt>

into:

<tt><nowiki>0 The movie had some content cuts to meet the standards of some <strike>oppressive regimes</strike> quaint "developing world" rating boards.</nowiki></tt>

And:

<tt><nowiki><li id="cite_note-tfwtour-12">↑ [[#cite_ref-tfwtour_12-0|13.0]] [[#cite_ref-tfwtour_12-1|13.1]] [[#cite_ref-tfwtour_12-2|13.2]] [[#cite_ref-tfwtour_12-3|13.3]] [http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139273 BotCon 2007 Hasbro tour report.]</nowiki></tt>

into:

<tt><nowiki>tfwtour 13.0 13.1 13.2 13.3 [http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139273 BotCon 2007 Hasbro tour report.]</nowiki></tt>

And:

<tt><nowiki><li id="cite_note-murphylatino-3">[[#cite_ref-murphylatino_3-0|↑]] [http://www.latinoreview.com/news.php?id=1502 Latino Review interview with producer Don Murphy.]</nowiki></tt>

into:

<tt><nowiki>murphylatino [http://www.latinoreview.com/news.php?id=1502 Latino Review interview with producer Don Murphy.]</nowiki></tt>

Or just ''something'' like this to turn the mess into as much usable (or at least readable) code as possible.

I don't know if this sort of processing is even ''possible'', but if it is, it would definitely make it easier to clean up pages that have more than just a few references. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, you could automate them. Same way my tool automates categories. It's just a fair amount of work. (...I suppose I should take a whack at it at SOME point.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:24, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::I honestly think it might be worth it... it took me literally a number of ''hours'' to untangle the references on the 2K7 movie page, and we have a fair number of similarly reference-heavy pages. (The Japanese Generation 1 Cartoon Timeline, for instance, is sitting in my bookmarks until I have the courage to tackle untangling ~60 references on a giant list. XP) Anything that can make the process even slightly easier would be well-appreciated if it's doable. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:32, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

== Nautilator ==

We have [[Nautilator]], [[Nautilator (G1)]] and [[Nautilator (Energon)]]
* Nautilator and Nautilator (G1) are the same guy.
* Nautilator (G1) disambigs to Nautilator (Energon) and vice versa.
* Nautilator is the only one of the three which has a cache version saved for it.
* Neither Nautilator (G1) nor Nautilator (Energon) come up in web searches.

It looks to me as if Nautilator (Energon) was deleted sometime between June and the Crash and Nautilator (G1) was moved to Nautilator. Anyone know the history there? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:47, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

:The Energon guy no longer exists, basically. The toy that was going to become ''Energon'' Nautilator eventually found release as a new version of the G1 guy through the fan club. So the Energon guy got absorbed back into the G1 guy's page. I think only Archerbot keeps a separate page, since he's got his own name. Maybe? I'm not sure, actually, but that's how I understand all this. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:17, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
::I was the guy who merged them. Archerbot wasn't an exception. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:31, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

::Oh! [[Piranhacon|These guys]]! So that's why those pages didn't get updated from the cache results. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:16, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

== Misplaced Pages ==

We have [[Super-God Masterforce (franchise)]] and [[Super-God Masterforce]], the latter of which has more information than the former. Which one do I keep? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:18, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:The latter one was resurrected with the rollback, by the looks. All the extra info is redundant with what's on [[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)]] anyway. I suggest setting it as a redirect to the franchise page. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:54, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::That's what I figured, but I thought I'd check. OK, this issue is settled. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:59, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:::We've got a whole bunch of redundant pages now, ranging from [[Kup]]/[[Kup (G1)]] to [[Detour (Cybertron episode)]]/[[Detour (episode)]]. Good fun! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:11, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

[[Transtech]] and [[TransTech]] are both about the canceled franchise. Shouldn't one of them be about the club comic alternate dimension? Where did that info go? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 18:50, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:Looks like Transtech got uploaded at TransTech by accident. Both pages were in the cache zip, so I've restored them to their proper places. Thanks for pointing that out! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:37, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

==Pages in Google cache but not in tfwikicache.tar.gz==
So I noticed that [[Omnibot]] was suspiciously outdated, and it turns out it wasn't included in tfwikicache.tar.gz for some reason, even though it's in the Google cache, dated Mar. 9. I didn't see "Omnibot" under any of the "Lost Pages" or "Sweep" lists, so I wanted to bring it to people's attention that this phenomenon exists. I've updated [[Omnibot]] completely, but I have no idea how many other pages out there might be like this, with Google's clock still ticking on them. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 04:41, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:That's because Omnibot, as well as various other "O" and "P" pages, are in G1MarvelBlaster's cache pile as linked under "[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Useful Resources|Useful Resources]]" (and as mentioned several times on this page previously :>). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:47, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
::If no one does those by the time I finish going through all the totally slagged pages, I guess I'll be doing them. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:51, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

::Ah, thank you. I knew there was something strange regarding the O's and P's, but I couldn't find the relevant conversation. There's.... a lot to keep up with. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 04:56, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

==Talk-page cache?==
Have the talk-pages been downloaded from the Google cache en masse and put into a .zip somewhere the way the articles have? According to [[#Saved|the stats above]], only a handful have been "saved," whatever that means. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:02, 25 March 2009 (EDT)
:And when I try to go to any of the pages in the link marked "Saved", they don't work. Google cache just doesn't seem to think they exist at all. Yet I've seen people restore Talk pages. How is this done? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:14, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
::I was only able to do it when the <nowiki>{{bookworm}}</nowiki> template provided an automatic link to the page's Google cache. Now it doesn't. If I wanted to restore my Talk page, I wouldn't know how to do it.
::Edit: Gah, forgot to nowiki-tag the template name.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 03:09, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:::It's <tt><nowiki>http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:tfwiki.net/wiki/(article title with underscores/encodings as needed)</nowiki></tt>
:::So your user talkpage would be http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:tfwiki.net/wiki/User_talk:Apcog for instance.
::::Much obliged. Jackpot too, I'm sure.
:::::Doesn't always work. Can't seem to find mine. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 05:07, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

::::Indeed, I thank you as well. For some reason I couldn't get it to work earlier, but your cache-link is apparently better somehow. The only problem is that the cache is overwriting itself now. For instance, I was trying to get [http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Sideways Talk:Sideways,] but that's been overwritten with the March 24 version. I thought that someone had claimed to have downloaded all the Talk pages right after the crash. Am I imagining things? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:52, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

==Attacktix Template==
I went and restored the [[Template:Attacktix]] off the Wikia copy. I know copying from there is frowned upon, but I compared it to the Google's cache of our version and made the appropriate changes. I also figured templates were a bit of a different animal as opposed to normal articles. It looks like it's ready to be used. Not knowing what our template code looked like however, I can't be certain it's exactly what it was. Are there any problems?--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 02:57, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
:As the original template creator, I can verify it is very much as it was when last I saw it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:07, 26 March 2009 (EDT)
::We shouldn't have issues copying over templates from Wikia. All of it is ''our'' work. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 04:05, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

==Midnote template==
Maybe I'm just not looking well enough, but do we still have the midnote template? If so, where is it? If not, can someone restore it, because the regular note really makes some pages look ugly? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:53, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

== Missing images ==

Despite running image import TWICE, the wiki is apparently still 'missing' some images that will have to be re-uploaded by hand. (However we should actually ''have'' them all.)

When you run into missing images, please post them here so someone can tidy them;

<s>Edgeofextinction-someonefight.jpg found on [[On the Edge of Extinction!]]</s> 
Megatron_generic_marvel_uk_265.jpg found on [[Once Upon a Time...]] 
Onslaughtmodelsheetshood.jpg found on [[Onslaught]] 
OptimusPrimalvsMegatron.jpg found on [[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]] 
Safeguardriseofsafeguard.jpg found on [[Rise of Safeguard]] 
--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:10, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Image:ClubCon Raindance GrandSlam.JPG _ [[Raindance]]/[[Grand Slam]] 
Image:RobotTimeMachineSixModes.jpg _ [[Autobot (G2)]] 
Image:Madman comic Soundwave ejects tapes.jpg _ [[Decepticon Mini-Cassette]] 
Image:Breakdown.jpg _ [[Breakdown (G1)]]
--[[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:01, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

<s>[[:Image:SpotlightGrimlock cover2.jpg]]</s> --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 13:58, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

===What to do if you find a image is missing===
#Find a cached version of the page with the image on it (at this stage, it's decreasingly likely Google will have a pre-crash version of the page, so you may be best going for the saved versions linked from the [[#Files]] section of this page).
#Find the image thumbnail which should be present there, and choose to "view image" or "copy image location" (in Firefox, terminology may vary in other browsers, and in IE, you may have to click "Properties" and copy the address from there).
#The URL will be something like <nowiki>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/</nowiki>thumb/<nowiki>b/b9/Ravageboxart.jpg</nowiki>/350px-Ravageboxart.jpg. Delete the sections marked in red and go to the altered link (Which should be in the form <nowiki>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b9/Ravageboxart.jpg</nowiki>. The exact bits after /images2/ will vary, of course) to check that it works.
#Copy that link and go to [[Special:Upload]]. Choose to upload from a URL, and paste that link in the lower "source filename" box. Preferably fill out where it came from/etc at this point, ''but if you don't know'', put '''<nowiki>{{bookworm|5|Needs description and copyright tag}}</nowiki>''' in the lower box and submit it (you may get a "page (but not file) exists"-type message. If so, ignore it and save the file anyway).
- [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:37, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

:I think, if the image had descriptive text before, it'll show up again when the image is reuploaded. I had that happen with Image:Tww1_oracle_tank.jpg and Image:Movie_OptimusPrime_MicroIR.jpg. However, it did not happen with the image I crossed off my list above. I'm guessing that one never had a description. It might also be dependent on whether you get to the upload page by clicking on the toolbox link or by clicking the link for the missing image. I've been doing the latter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:30, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
::What's happened is that some of the PAGES exist, but the database has lost the FILES that are associated with them (The files are still on the server, but MediaWiki is blind to their existence). That leads to the "page (but not file) exists"-type message, and the description which existed before (which may *not* be sufficient, given the rollbacks) will be there when you go to the Image:page. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:40, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:I wonder if there's an easy way to search for missing images. Also, when we move servers, are we going to be able to take ''all'' of the files with us and not just the ones that the MediaWiki database knows about? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

<s>I can't find the source for the Rise of Safeguard one. :\ And I can't find the thumbnail for Image:Stunticons-collectallfive.jpg either.</s> Nevermind. Found them manually. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:23, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

== Category link backs ==

I think I removed all the wikia links from the category pages. We could probably remove that bit from the main page now. There is a possibility I may have missed a few, but I did go through systematically.

I had no idea we had that many category pages. Wow. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 12:02, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

== Making things less tedious ==

Because reformatting <gallery>s is tedious, I've made a tool to do it for us.

*[http://www.aldenbates.com/gallerizer Gallerizer]

Copy and paste the gallery code into the form, hit the submit button, copy the reformatted text back out. Will do multiple galleries, though I don't think we have many pages with more than one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:34, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

===Comic template converter===
I've created a tool to convert the HTML on comic pages to <nowiki>{{comicstory}} and {{comicnav}}</nowiki> templates.

*[http://www.aldenbates.com/htmltocomic Comicnav conversion tool]

I'm pretty sure I managed to get all of the many many parameters the comicstory template can take, but please check to make sure that they match what's on the original page, and, as always, if it fails to convert something, leave a link to it on my talk page. :)

Interrobang, do you want one for the episode template? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:11, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:Wow. That's awesome! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:05, 29 March 2009 (EDT)

== Totally scrambled pages ==

All right, I've fixed all of the pages that failed to convert at all and ended up as HTML mess. At least, all of the ones I could find. If anyone spots any more, feel free to drop a note on my talk page! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:56, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

== Infobox template for books? ==

Do we have one for books like do we with comics? I can use the comic ones fine, but I can't figure out how to get the ISBN to show up in the info box and, indeed, how to the get the ISBN function that you can click to search for the book on Amazon and such retailers. Thanks. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:57, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:The ISBN one confused me at first, but it appears if you just write an ISBN, MediaWiki recognises it and turns it into a link: ISBN 1-84023-527-6 --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:22, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::We used to have a book infobox, but it must have been new enough that it didn't get saved. We need one, though, I find that trying to cram book page info into the comicstory one is just too awkward. (*would rebuild it herself, except that those infoboxes kind of fall into wikivoodoo territory code-wise*) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:32, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects ==

Has a bot been set up to find and remove all the Wikia linkbacks? Because by doing a [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Special:Search&ns0=1&redirs=0&searchx=1&search=wikia&limit=500&offset=0 search for the word Wikia], I've noticed that a lot of them are on redirect pages, and that accessing the redirect page doesn't show that link until you're on the Edit page... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:39, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

== Moved/deleted pages ==

We got a lot of pages back which we had in June 2008 which we didn't before the crash. I did a diff on the current list of pages and the one we were saving caches from and have 43 pages left to check. So far, these pages are ones I'm not sure what happened to in the intervening 8 months:

{{collist|3|
# <s>[[Overlord (rank)|Autobot Overlord]]</s>
# [[Clamp]]
# [[Dinocons]]
# [[Gone Forever]]
# [[Holly Kaneko]]
# [[Matrix Buster]]
# [[Monorail transport]]
# <s>[[Seattle-Tacoma area]]</s>
# [[Steamer]]
# [[Taitem Kusunoki]]
# [[Transformers books]]
# <s>[[Transformers in 3D issue 2]]</s>
}}

Dinocons, I'd have assumed was deleted, but our cache copy of [[Dinobot (disambiguation)]] links to it. Holly Kaneko and Taitem Kusunoki are copies of [[Harii Kaneko]] and [[Taiten Kusunoki]] respectively. Someone with a better grasp of Japanese may know where they belong. Matrix buster and Seattle-Tacoma area may have been merged with [[Big Cannon]] and [[Seattle]]. Steamer, I have no idea what happened to, as [[Steamer (G1)]] redirects to [[Chuffer]]... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:50, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:Yep, I'd moved "Seattle-Tacoma area" to "Seattle" when I realized there were more specific references to that one city in the canon. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:19, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:Dinocons is definitely an unrecovered page, possibly one of G1MarvelBlaster's cache recoveries... It's the Shattered Glass Dinobots who ally themselves with Decepticons in that continuity. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 01:21, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
::Those would be at [[Dinobot (Shattered Glass)]] though! G1MarvelBlaster's pages all start with O and P. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:42, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, no. The "Dinobots" that ended up in Decepticon hands following Dungeons & Dinobots got renamed Dinocons once Do Over started. (literally. The first line of Do Over is "Good morning, Dinocons!".) --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 07:00, 28 March 2009 (EDT)
[[Transformers in 3D issue 2]] was moved to [[Transformers in 3-D issue 2]], following the title on the cover. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:04, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

==Double redirects==
The restoration process has resulted in [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Special:DoubleRedirects&limit=500&offset=0 quite a lot of double redirects,] and we probably haven't seen the end of it. I've got other projects I want to use my time on right now, but I figured I'd point this out so that anyone interested could tackle it and keep an eye on it in the future. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:59, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

== IDW Gen1 issues completed ==

These have all been fixed. Still outstanding (as far as I know) are Hearts of Steel, Beast Wars and Movie continuity. On, and reprint series. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 11:18, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

== Current status of the wiki ==

So, at the moment how are we? I have read all of this page but I'm still not sure what exactly is left to do at the moment (IE how many pages have we lost, how close are we to being back to normal, what is the extent of the damage to pages etc etc) P.S. how much space does the wiki take up (I'd prefer to have images and articles seperately) because I thought that maybe toghether we could all back up the wiki on our computers (as in we each get a little bit of it). P.P.S. I'll probably be registering soon, any ideas on a good name? [[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:25, 30 March 2009 (EDT)