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Grindor (ROTF)

2009-08-11T23:27:21Z

98.222.66.80:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Grindor}}
:''Grindor is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:Grindor rotfgame trailer.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I copied another character's alt-mode 'cause [[Scavenger (ROTF)|all]] [[Buffalo MPV Decepticon|the]] [[Rampage (ROTF)|cool]] [[Mixmaster (ROTF)|'cons]] [[Long Haul (ROTF)|were]] [[Scrapper (ROTF)|doing]] it.]]

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to get one over on '''Grindor'''. A master strategist, and close combat specialist, Grindor can predict his opponents next move before they know it themselves. It's reached the point where it's less planning and more instinct on his part. With every possible move planned out beforehand, Grindor confidently wades into the center of battle, ready for any and all comers.

Except [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|this guy]].

Don't confuse him with [[Blackout (Movie)|that guy]].

{{bigquote|Objectives will win a battle, but it is sheer ruthlessness that will win a war.|Grindor's sagely advice to the Decepticons|[[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|Revenge of the Fallen: The Game]]}}

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Frank Welker]]

Ordered by [[The Fallen]] to capture [[Sam Witwicky]] for the information that the [[All Spark (Movie)|All Spark]] had imprinted in his mind, [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] led [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and Grindor to [[Earth]], waiting for the [[human]] boy to be flushed out by [[Alice|one of their agents]]. Grindor captured the humans' escape vehicle and brought it to an abandoned industrial facility where Starscream and Megatron were waiting. While Grindor waited outside, Megatron and [[Scalpel]] interrogated the boy, preparing to extract the information by removing his brain, a process that was interrupted by the arrival of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]. Optimus briefly fought off Megatron and Starscream before escaping with Sam into the woods.

[[Image:ROTF Optimus vs Grindor.jpg|thumb|left|250px|I predict a checkmate in 4 mo-*stab*.]]
Megatron followed, but soon called for his soldiers to assist. Grindor played little part in the opening attack, but gathered on the outnumbered and outgunned but defiant Optimus Prime. The [[Autobot]] [[Prime (rank)|leader]] immediately unsheathed both [[Dual Energon Swords|battle blade]]s and attacked the Decepticons, cutting off Grindor's right arm, slashing into his chest, and sending some of Starscream's artillery his way. Badly hurt, Grindor required some downtime before he could rejoin the battle, during which Optimus stabbed Megatron and knocked off Starscream's arm.

As Grindor advanced on him, Prime unleashed a hook and jabbed it into Grindor's [[optic]], using the leverage to pull him up. Once on top of the larger Decepticon, Prime then struck another hook into Grindor, then proceeded to ''tear his head apart'', killing Grindor. As he pushed the lifeless hulk to the ground, Optimus contemptuously commented on the materials Grindor was made of. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

==Games==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Fred Tatasciore]]

====''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game (Xbox 360/Sony PS3/PC)====
=====Decepticon campaign=====
[[Image:ROTFgame-Grindor.jpg|left|thumb|I have tan parts! That's how you know.]]

Grindor served in a similar capacity amongst the Decepticons to that which [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] served for the Autobots - he was the Heavy Weapons Guy. Big, slow, durable, and seriously over-armed, Grindor could even drop off machinegun turrets for that extra added overkill.

During the Decepticons' missions in [[China]], Grindor oversaw their supposedly secret mission in [[Shanghai]], until his forces were detected and routed by [[NEST]] and the Autobots. Imprisoned in the docks, [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]] had to come and rescue his comrade.

On the United States West Coast, Grindor was assigned to hack into NEST's communication network in the downtown area. Fighting through its Autobot [[Protectobot Scout|Protectobot]] defenders, Grindor managed to link up with each of the town's five communications arrays, furthering the Decepticon cause.

On the East Coast, Grindor was assigned to capture Ladiesman217, designation Samuel Witwicky. After destroying the human's dorm building, Grindor took Witwicky to the nearby foundry where he would be interrogated by Megatron. However, during this process, the Autobots sent waves of Protectobots against Grindor in an attempt to save the boy, but they failed.{{Storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)}}
{{-}}

=====Autobot campaign=====

While Grindor secured their position by deploying [[Combaticon (ROTF)|Combaticon]] and [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]] drones around the town, [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] arrived to rescue Sam. Assisted by his drones, the Decepticon almost overwhelmed the plucky little Autobot, but in the end Bumblebee reduced Grindor and his unit into scrap metal. {{Storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class====
[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Grindor.jpg|thumb|300px|No, I'm not Blackout! There is NO missing scene dammit! We're nothing alike. I would never let myself get shot in the balls.]]
*'''Grindor''' (Legends, 2009)

:''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Legends Grindor is a [[redeco]] of the [[Movie (franchise)|first movie]]'s Legends class [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] toy in a light blue base color with digital camouflage. Legends Grindor is a small and highly simplified version of the character, featuring limited articulation and detail, with the helicopter mode not being a particularly faithful recreation of an [[wikipedia:MH-53_Pave_Low|Sikorsky MH-53 Pave Low]] heavy-lift helicopter. (The placement of the fuel tanks, in particular, makes him look more like a [[Wikipedia:CH-53 Sea Stallion|CH-53 Sea Stallion]].) Even though the robot mode sports an attempt to emulate the movie character's chest design, this does not involve the use of obvious fake elements of the helicopter mode's cockpit, unlike [[Jazz (Movie)|other]] Legends Class toys of movie characters.
{{-}}

====Voyager Class====
[[Image:ROTF_Voyager_Grindor.jpg|thumb|300px|Just you wait, someone will call him Leader-1.]]
*'''Grindor''' (Voyager, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RD-18'''
**''Accessories:'' Scorponok mini-figure

:Grindor is a redeco of the first movie's Voyager class Blackout figure in a more military-accurate grey colour scheme. The little [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] mini-figure has been redecoed to reflect the colour changes on the ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' release of Deluxe class Scorponok (even though the two never appear together in the film).

:Grindor transforms into a reasonably accurate MH-53 Pave Low. An aft "cage" compartment can be opened to release a small PVC figurine of his partner, Scorponok. A button under his tail rotor can be pressed in a geared action to rotate his rotor blades. By attaching the Deluxe-class Scorponok to his underside, the rotor [[gimmick]] also spins Scorponok's claws.

: During transformation, Grindor's (mind-numbingly delicate) [[Automorph Technology|Automorphing]] gimmick is activated when the user swings down his legs, which in turn flips the gray chest section his head is mounted upon up and into position, and lifts his back assembly and locks it into place behind his head. Another, less impressive automorph is in his legs—if you pull his knees down, his shin armor pops out a bit. The entire rotor assembly on his back can be removed and converted into a gigantic fan weapon, to represent ''vaguely'' the hand-held rotor-blade weapon he and Blackout wield in the films. Because of the size of his rotor assembly, Grindor is also much shorter than most Voyager-class figures despite his bulk, barely taller than a Deluxe figure.

: It is ''very'' easy for the gears in the cockpit/chest to become misaligned during transformation, enough so that the chest/head section refuses to align with the cockpit halves. Getting the gears back into alignment is a veritable nightmare, as so many other parts shift and move as you attempt to manipulate the respective pieces. Swinging the legs down locks the back assembly into place for robot mode, but simply swinging the legs back does ''not'' ''un''lock it, with the user being required to separate the parts actively by hand. Failing to do so is sure to misalign your Grindor to bejeezus.

: An interesting side note is that the two hard points located on Grindor's shoulders, intended to support his abominably large weapon, are actually the same size as the [[Mini-Con]] [[Powerlinx]] plugs on most [[Unicron Trilogy]] figures.

:The original Blackout release of this mold was retooled as ''[[Movie (toyline)|Movie]]'' [[Evac (Movie)|Evac]] and ''Revenge of the Fallen'' [[Whirl (ROTF)|Whirl]].
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Grindor ROTF FAB toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Hey, is that Leader-1?]]
*'''Missile Assault Grindor''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)
**''Accessories:'' Projectile

:Missile Assault Grindor is a redeco of the first movie's Gyro Blade Blackout in a more military-accurate grey colour scheme. He is a simplified version of Grindor/Blackout design, designed for smaller children. His rotor blade can be detached and inserted into his left hand to represent the hand-held rotor blade seen in the film, just like the Voyager class version. He also features a chest cannon which can be flipped up from his back. Oddly, you can only see one-fourth of Grindor's head from a 90-degree angle. Even less of it is visible when his chest cannon is flipped up. He features a firing missile.
{{--}}

==Notes==
*Although his toys (and seemingly the CG model of his robot mode) are identical to Blackout's, and although the toys' packaging retains Pave Low [[licensed vehicle alternate modes|licensing]] information, Grindor's alt mode in the movie is in fact a [[Wikipedia:CH-53E_Super_Stallion|Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion]]—essentially a slightly upsized Pave Low operated by the [[United States Marine Corps|US Marine Corps]]. The ROTF video games include licensing information for the Super Stallion instead of the Pave Low. The alt mode switch may be explained by the retirement of the USAF's Pave Lows in 2008.

*Frank Welker is not credited for the voice of Grindor in the credits of the film itself, but his "[http://www.frankwelker.net/ Official Homepage]" would later credit him for the role. While we're not entirely convinced that the page wasn't simply updated by someone who read it on Wikipedia, the "sheeeagh" that Grindor lets out as Optimus Prime rips his head apart is pretty unmistakeably Welker.

* ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' never explicitly establishes Grindor as a separate character from Blackout. Screenwriter [[Roberto Orci]], when asked, was not sure whether they were supposed to be the same character or not.<ref name="orci">[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-movie-discussion/180451-welcome-mr-roberto-orci-you-may-ask-him-questions-283.html#post3785383 Q&A with Roberto Orci at TFW2005]</ref> In the [[Hasbro Q&A July 2009: Answers|Hasbro Q&A for July 2009]], it was confirmed that Grindor, not Blackout, appears in the movie.

* As seen in [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game]], Grindor has the ability to hover using the engines of his Helicopter mode as jets.

==Footnotes==
<references/>

[[Category: Strategists]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]

Grindor (ROTF)

2009-08-11T23:24:16Z

98.222.66.80:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Grindor}}
:''Grindor is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen franchise]] in the [[Live-action film series|live-action film]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:Grindor rotfgame trailer.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I copied another character's alt-mode 'cause [[Scavenger (ROTF)|all]] [[Buffalo MPV Decepticon|the]] [[Rampage (ROTF)|cool]] [[Mixmaster (ROTF)|'cons]] [[Long Haul (ROTF)|were]] [[Scrapper (ROTF)|doing]] it.]]

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to get one over on '''Grindor'''. A master strategist, and close combat specialist, Grindor can predict his opponents next move before they know it themselves. It's reached the point where it's less planning and more instinct on his part. With every possible move planned out beforehand, Grindor confidently wades into the center of battle, ready for any and all comers.

Except [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|this guy]].

Don't confuse him with [[Blackout (Movie)|that guy]].

{{bigquote|Objectives will win a battle, but it is sheer ruthlessness that will win a war.|Grindor's sagely advice to the Decepticons|[[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|Revenge of the Fallen: The Game]]}}

==Fiction==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' film===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Frank Welker]]

Ordered by [[The Fallen]] to capture [[Sam Witwicky]] for the information that the [[All Spark (Movie)|All Spark]] had imprinted in his mind, [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] led [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and Grindor to [[Earth]], waiting for the [[human]] boy to be flushed out by [[Alice|one of their agents]]. Grindor captured the humans' escape vehicle and brought it to an abandoned industrial facility where Starscream and Megatron were waiting. While Grindor waited outside, Megatron and [[Scalpel]] interrogated the boy, preparing to extract the information by removing his brain, a process that was interrupted by the arrival of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]]. Optimus briefly fought off Megatron and Starscream before escaping with Sam into the woods.

[[Image:ROTF Optimus vs Grindor.jpg|thumb|left|250px|I predict a checkmate in 4 mo-*stab*.]]
Megatron followed, but soon called for his soldiers to assist. Grindor played little part in the opening attack, but gathered on the outnumbered and outgunned but defiant Optimus Prime. The [[Autobot]] [[Prime (rank)|leader]] immediately unsheathed both [[Dual Energon Swords|battle blade]]s and attacked the Decepticons, cutting off Grindor's right arm, slashing into his chest, and sending some of Starscream's artillery his way. Badly hurt, Grindor required some downtime before he could rejoin the battle, during which Optimus stabbed Megatron and knocked off Starscream's arm.

As Grindor advanced on him, Prime unleashed a hook and jabbed it into Grindor's [[optic]], using the leverage to pull him up. Once on top of the larger Decepticon, Prime then struck another hook into Grindor, then proceeded to ''tear his head apart'', killing Grindor. As he pushed the lifeless hulk to the ground, Optimus contemptuously commented on the materials Grindor was made of. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}
{{-}}

==Games==
===''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Fred Tatasciore]]

====''Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game (Xbox 360/Sony PS3/PC)====
=====Decepticon campaign=====
[[Image:ROTFgame-Grindor.jpg|left|thumb|I have tan parts! That's how you know.]]

Grindor served in a similar capacity amongst the Decepticons to that which [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] served for the Autobots - he was the Heavy Weapons Guy. Big, slow, durable, and seriously over-armed, Grindor could even drop off machinegun turrets for that extra added overkill.

During the Decepticons' missions in [[China]], Grindor oversaw their supposedly secret mission in [[Shanghai]], until his forces were detected and routed by [[NEST]] and the Autobots. Imprisoned in the docks, [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]] had to come and rescue his comrade.

On the United States West Coast, Grindor was assigned to hack into NEST's communication network in the downtown area. Fighting through its Autobot [[Protectobot Scout|Protectobot]] defenders, Grindor managed to link up with each of the town's five communications arrays, furthering the Decepticon cause.

On the East Coast, Grindor was assigned to capture Ladiesman217, designation Samuel Witwicky. After destroying the human's dorm building, Grindor took Witwicky to the nearby foundry where he would be interrogated by Megatron. However, during this process, the Autobots sent waves of Protectobots against Grindor in an attempt to save the boy, but they failed.{{Storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)}}
{{-}}

=====Autobot campaign=====

While Grindor secured their position by deploying [[Combaticon (ROTF)|Combaticon]] and [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]] drones around the town, [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] arrived to rescue Sam. Assisted by his drones, the Decepticon almost overwhelmed the plucky little Autobot, but in the end Bumblebee reduced Grindor and his unit into scrap metal. {{Storylink|Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)}}

==Toys==
===Revenge of the Fallen===
====Legends Class====
[[Image:ROTF_Legends_Grindor.jpg|thumb|300px|No, I'm not Blackout! There is NO missing scene dammit! We're nothing alike. I would never let myself get shot in the balls.]]
*'''Grindor''' (Legends, 2009)

:''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Legends Grindor is a [[redeco]] of the [[Movie (franchise)|first movie]]'s Legends class [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] toy in a light blue base color with digital camouflage. Legends Grindor is a small and highly simplified version of the character, featuring limited articulation and detail, with the helicopter mode not being a particularly faithful recreation of an [[wikipedia:MH-53_Pave_Low|Sikorsky MH-53 Pave Low]] heavy-lift helicopter. (The placement of the fuel tanks, in particular, makes him look more like a [[Wikipedia:CH-53 Sea Stallion|CH-53 Sea Stallion]].) Even though the robot mode sports an attempt to emulate the movie character's chest design, this does not involve the use of obvious fake elements of the helicopter mode's cockpit, unlike [[Jazz (Movie)|other]] Legends Class toys of movie characters.
{{-}}

====Voyager Class====
[[Image:ROTF_Voyager_Grindor.jpg|thumb|300px|Just you wait, someone will call him Leader-1.]]
*'''Grindor''' (Voyager, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RD-18'''
**''Accessories:'' Scorponok mini-figure

:Grindor is a redeco of the first movie's Voyager class Blackout figure in a more military-accurate grey colour scheme. The little [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] mini-figure has been redecoed to reflect the colour changes on the ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' release of Deluxe class Scorponok (even though the two never appear together in the film).

:Grindor transforms into a reasonably accurate MH-53 Pave Low. An aft "cage" compartment can be opened to release a small PVC figurine of his partner, Scorponok. A button under his tail rotor can be pressed in a geared action to rotate his rotor blades. By attaching the Deluxe-class Scorponok to his underside, the rotor [[gimmick]] also spins Scorponok's claws.

: During transformation, Grindor's (mind-numbingly delicate) [[Automorph Technology|Automorphing]] gimmick is activated when the user swings down his legs, which in turn flips the gray chest section his head is mounted upon up and into position, and lifts his back assembly and locks it into place behind his head. Another, less impressive automorph is in his legs—if you pull his knees down, his shin armor pops out a bit. The entire rotor assembly on his back can be removed and converted into a gigantic fan weapon, to represent ''vaguely'' the hand-held rotor-blade weapon he and Blackout wield in the films. Because of the size of his rotor assembly, Grindor is also much shorter than most Voyager-class figures despite his bulk, barely taller than a Deluxe figure.

: It is ''very'' easy for the gears in the cockpit/chest to become misaligned during transformation, enough so that the chest/head section refuses to align with the cockpit halves. Getting the gears back into alignment is a veritable nightmare, as so many other parts shift and move as you attempt to manipulate the respective pieces. Swinging the legs down locks the back assembly into place for robot mode, but simply swinging the legs back does ''not'' ''un''lock it, with the user being required to separate the parts actively by hand. Failing to do so is sure to misalign your Grindor to bejeezus.

: An interesting side note is that the two hard points located on Grindor's shoulders, intended to support his abominably large weapon, are actually the same size as the [[Mini-Con]] [[Powerlinx]] plugs on most [[Unicron Trilogy]] figures.

:The original Blackout release of this mold was retooled as ''[[Movie (toyline)|Movie]]'' [[Evac (Movie)|Evac]] and ''Revenge of the Fallen'' [[Whirl (ROTF)|Whirl]].
{{-}}

====Fast Action Battlers====
[[Image:Grindor ROTF FAB toy.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Hey, is that Leader-1?]]
*'''Missile Assault Grindor''' (Fast Action Battler, 2009)
**''Accessories:'' Projectile

:Missile Assault Grindor is a redeco of the first movie's Gyro Blade Blackout in a more military-accurate grey colour scheme. He is a simplified version of Grindor/Blackout design, designed for smaller children. His rotor blade can be detached and inserted into his left hand to represent the hand-held rotor blade seen in the film, just like the Voyager class version. He also features a chest cannon which can be flipped up from his back. Oddly, you can only see one-fourth of Grindor's head from a 90-degree angle. Even less of it is visible when his chest cannon is flipped up. He features a firing missile.
{{--}}

==Notes==
*Although his toys (and seemingly the CG model of his robot mode) are identical to Blackout's, and although the toys' packaging retains Pave Low [[licensed vehicle alternate modes|licensing]] information, Grindor's alt mode in the movie is in fact a [[Wikipedia:CH-53E_Super_Stallion|Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion]]—essentially a slightly upsized Pave Low operated by the [[United States Marine Corps|US Marine Corps]]. The ROTF video games include licensing information for the Super Stallion instead of the Pave Low. The alt mode switch may be explained by the retirement of the USAF's Pave Lows in 2008.

*Frank Welker is not credited for the voice of Grindor in the credits of the film itself, but his "[http://www.frankwelker.net/ Official Homepage]" would later credit him for the role. While we're not entirely convinced that the page wasn't simply updated by someone who read it on Wikipedia, the "sheeeagh" that Grindor lets out as Optimus Prime rips his head apart is pretty unmistakeably Welker.

* ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' never explicitly establishes Grindor as a separate character from Blackout. Screenwriter [[Roberto Orci]], when asked, was not sure whether they were supposed to be the same character or not.<ref name="orci">[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-movie-discussion/180451-welcome-mr-roberto-orci-you-may-ask-him-questions-283.html#post3785383 Q&A with Roberto Orci at TFW2005]</ref> Although given there is no scene which shows his resurrection, it can be safe to assume Grindor is a separate character with the same [[body-type]]. In [[Hasbro Q&A July 2009: Answers|the Hasbro Q&A for July 2009]], it was confirmed that Grindor, not Blackout, appears in the movie.

* As seen in [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' - The Game]], Grindor has the ability to hover using the engines of his Helicopter mode as jets.

==Footnotes==
<references/>

[[Category: Strategists]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen characters]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]

Talk:Grindor (ROTF)

2009-08-11T23:10:19Z

98.222.66.80:

==Background==
Just out of curiosity, do any of the toy bios give an explanation on what Grindor's story is? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 12:27, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:No, it is just his personality. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

== Accuracy edit. ==

It has been confirmed that Blackout is dead, so I am deleting the part that says he might be Blackout.[[User:Homey|Homey]] 21:29, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:Where was that confirmed? There's all kinds of back-and-forth on whether it was Grindor or Blackout. Here's Liam Shalloo claiming Roberto Orci has said it was supposed to be Blackout: http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=59821&view=findpost&p=1259230 ...I don't doubt the info, I just think we need to get some links to first-hand info that confirms one way or another, because I'm seeing a lot of arguing and people quoting credible sources without actually sourcing them. [[User:Lukeblast|Lukeblast]] 10:23, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
::Grindor is the only one who is getting mainline toys, though. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:29, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And Barricade is a definite example that if Hasbro considered him alive, they would have reused him.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 10:43, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah but what does the movie identify him as? Unless the end credits say something, I'm pretty sure he wasn't named at all. People not following the toyline would be forgiven for assuming it's Blackout. This comes under whether the movie is a seperate entity or considered connected to all the other materials. The Grinder toy is clearly Hasbro making some sense out of the movie (and scoring a new toy to boot) but the movie on its own doesn't explain who this is. Narrative convention (and I know that's kinda a bullshit term, but you know what I mean) makes it Blackout. Up to now, he's the only guy we've ever seen before that looks like that. No one else was introduced as a sepearte character.[[User:Riddlerj|Riddlerj]] 14:53, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Don't forget that Grindor is a major playable character in the video games. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:52, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::When Dreamworks says Grindor's a misinformation name, i'm inclined to believe them.--[[Special:Contributions/86.87.28.191|86.87.28.191]] 17:03, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::When and where did "Dreamworks" say this? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:05, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hey, when an anonymous dude says anything with no source, I'm inclined to believe them! It's a failing of mine. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 27 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::That's more or less what I'm getting at. Even people who aren't anon are throwing around information that can go either way. Some are claiming it came from credible sources, but I've seen no actual proof of those. I have no reason to doubt anyone and no desire to prove anyone wrong; in this case, who is right is less important to me than showing your work. Like many people, the wiki is my go-to site for TF information, and I'm finding that even here, a side has been taken with no conclusive proof that I can see. I'm just asking that a link or quote or something gets dug up and added to this. [[User:Lukeblast|Lukeblast]] 00:15, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Blackout is dead, and the guy in the movie is in Grindor's colors. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:29, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What's the source for Blackout being dead? The first movie? Megatron was pretty dead too. What's the source for the guy in ROTF being Grindor? The toys? They aren't the movie (let's not forget that the toys also say Jazz and Bonecrusher are still alive). Aside from "Grindor" not standing still long enough for someone to really tell the difference in color between him and the nearly-identical guy from the previous movie, he's never named on-screen. The assumption that if Megatron was brought back, then so was Blackout is a likely one for the average moviegoer (and many fans) to make. Sam's Allspark fragment brought an entire kitchen to life and re-energized Jetfire. Why couldn't the much larger one used on Megatron have brought Blackout back as well? Not to keep harping the same point, but proof is a necessity. I'm seeing well-thought and logical arguments (and personally, I think it's Grindor too), but reasoned assumptions are not the same as sourced facts. [[User:Lukeblast|Lukeblast]] 02:32, 29 June 2009 (EDT)
::::You can see Blackout's remains (in many peieces) among the wreckage to be disposed of on the deck of the aircraft carrier in the first movie.
::::The Decepticons had but one AllSpark fragment.
::::That's not Blackout in the ROTF movie. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:35, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Once again, Megatron was also in pieces. No one has said that Allspark fragments can only be used once (in fact, Sam's was used twice). The argument that he could be Blackout was just as reasonable, which is why I kept harping on the necessity for a sourced statement. Thankfully, the recent Q&A has provided one. I'm gonna link it and remove all doubt... well, I'm sure someone out there will still insist differently, but Hasbro's word trumps fan stubbornness. [[Special:Contributions/98.222.66.80|98.222.66.80]] 19:10, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::It's a common sense argument that anyone could easily accept. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that Wikis have to take canon over common sense, so here's hoping Hasbro backs it up. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 12:47, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Here's something to think about... ''If'' it was Blackout, you would see him erupting from the water beside his master Megatron, like the Constructicons and Ravage did. He was never seen doing that. What do you all think?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 12:59, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Kind of speculatey. Nearly everything about Blackout's personality was established in secondary media like comics, and I... just don't think the screenwriters or Bay thought that long and hard about his motivations.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:02, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Not to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but this goes back to what I was mentioning earlier. Everyone is going to secondary sources such as the toys and books and Transformers previous incarnations to compute what, in the film itself, could be counted as actually film errors. A Blackout looking guy showing up even though he was dropped into the water last time. Multiple Constructicons. We can fannon it off that "yeah, there's probably multiple troops with the same body type" and "yeah, the toy says that's Grindor" but avarage movie goers don't know that. The movie doesn't state it, and the movie is, in many ways, considered a spliter timeline from the comics and toy lines and what not. It's its own continuity. [[Special:Contributions/98.235.18.165|98.235.18.165]] 15:48, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Such is the nature of a constructed reality.
:::::But is our own any less inconsistent, or any less artificial? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:44, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::But many of the supposed 'errors' in both the 2007 and 2009 movies ''were'' explained in the original scripts, but the explanations were simply trimmed for time. Those things are not 'errors' or after-the-fact explanations... they are simply things that were ''always'' true which did not make it on-screen.
:::::ROTF is messier, because it has a mix of things that ''do'' make sense if you go back to the original script (which in our case usually means the novel) and things for which explanations were created during-production by Hasbro or the game developers who were workign with the script and started adding to the events off-screen etc... and stuff that is being added after-the-fact to fix problems in the movie or simply fill 'holes.' ([[Purple Motorcycle Autobot]] seems to not have ''never'' had a name in the course of production. That's not really an error of any sort... it's just that the character's name, bio etc all got filled in later.)
:::::Plus the problems with IDW's expanded continuity, which is always a bit messy.
:::::So do we listen to Orci who says Arcee is a 3-body combiner? Or Hasbro who says it's 3 individuals, one of whom is Arcee? Does Orci ''lose'' his ability to pass judgment on what Arcee 'is' because the combining aspect was completely dropped from the film? "The picture of reality you are presenting is based on an early idea that was dropped. Justifying your picture of reality with the dropped idea invalidates it." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:49, 3 July 2009 (EDT)

== Welker credits according to his site ==

According to [http://www.mkbmemorial.com/FWHp/ Welker's official site], he voices Soundwave, Ravage (huh?), Devastator and Grindor (huh??). What do you guys think? Something to consider is Welker was credited for [[Reedman]], but it's not mentioned on this site. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:42, 3 July 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not entirely convinced that that wasn't updated by someone who read on Wikipedia that Welker voiced Grindor (particularly since it prominently uses of the term "vocal effects", which is how I personally wrote the original sentence on Wikipedia that described Welker's audio efforts for the non-speakers). That is not to say, of course, that Welker did NOT do the effects for Gindor: small as they are, that "sheeagh" when Prime rips his head apart is total Welker. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:45, 3 July 2009 (EDT)
::I'd be willing to take it if we're looking for a justification to do away with this "we don't know who the helicopter in the movie is" nonesense (which really seems to a passive-aggressive form of ROTF butthurt) but McFeely is probably right. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:35, 3 July 2009 (EDT)

== Accuracy edit pt 2 ==

Firstly it was confirmed at the premere in tokyo, but you can see for yourselves now that it's out here. Secondly, don't hound people so much.[[User:Homey|Homey]] 16:21, 3 July 2009 (EDT)
:In what manner was it confirmed? How is Tokyi specific tot his? Are you saying that the movie itself somehow confirms this? Was the character's name mentioned in press-releases or interviews for the movie? Did the Japanese dub credit him as Grindor?
:Do you realize that your general hand-wave statement is terribly uninformative? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 3 July 2009 (EDT)

== Protect ==

I say we protect this site as it's being hit by some douchebag annon user.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 12:57, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:[[User:Jaw123|Jaw123]] isn't an anon though. [[User:Apcog|Apcog]]'s given him a warning, so if he keeps edit warring, stricter action may be taken. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:17, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Size class

2009-07-23T05:39:46Z

98.222.66.80:

'''Size class''' is how [[Hasbro]] determines the size and price of a toy. It also determines the amount of budget spent on the production of a [[Toy|Transformers toy]], such as paint or electronics. The logic behind size classes is simple: retailers can order a [[case]] of toys, knowing exactly how much they will sell for and exactly how much shelf space they will occupy. All the Deluxes in a line have identically-sized packaging and cost the same price. When you run out of Deluxes, you order a new case and put them right back where they belong. This is incredibly convenient, especially compared to [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1]], where the sizes and prices of figures varied widely.

Each size class corresponds to its own '''price point''', the rough retail price of the individual toys. Price points do not correspond to exact retail price, but suggest the rough value one can expect to pay. A $10 price point toy may retail for $9.76 at Wal-Mart while being $10.99 at Toys-R-Us and $7.99 on sale at Target.

Up until [[Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]], toys with a uniform gimmick were sold as their own distinct assortment, which often resulted in an assortment consisting of no more than four or six different toys. Since Autobots and Decepticons often had their own distinct gimmicks, this resulted in separate Autobot and Decepticon assortments. Starting with [[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]], however, [[HasKen]] introduced uniform price points which continued as ongoing size class assortments throughout the line (although, in the case of longer lines, an assortment could occasionally be reset while still retaining the same size class name).

The intended class of a toy is relevant to all phases of its design process. To sell at a given price, there are tight formulas for how much plastic can be used, how many paint applications are allowed, whether electronics can be included, and how complex the transformation and articulation can be. Further, since a size class is literally a ''size'' class; toys are limited in their measurements, so that they will fit into the same size packaging as other toys in their class. (As an example, the Voyager [[Lugnut]] toy, in robot mode, is very short compared to other toys in his class. This may be because he transforms into a mostly-linear plane, with his weapon added on as a tail assembly, making him even longer. Most Transformers are packaged in their [[altmode]]. Regardless of whether there was room in the budget for more plastic, there may not have been room in a Voyager-sized box for him to be any bigger.)There are, however, exceptions; [[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]] is simply to wide and thick to fit inside the box in his alt-mode, thus, he is packed in his robot mode.

Size classes have not been consistent from line to line, with names often changing to affect marketability.

==Beast Wars==
''[[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' had five size classes. From smallest to largest:

* '''Basic,''' the cheapest at US$5.
* '''Deluxe,''' at US$10.
* '''Mega,''' at US$15. Toys of this size were often [[Shelfwarmer|shelfwarmers]].
* '''Ultra,''' at US$20. Only eight toys were sold at this price point.
* '''Super,''' at US$30. This size class contained only one toy, [[Optimal Optimus]].

Basic and Deluxe are sold on cards to this day; size classes larger than Deluxe were, and are, sold in boxes.

==Beast Machines==
''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' continued ''Beast Wars''' size classes, but increased the price of Basic to US$7.

'''Supreme''' was introduced as a US$40 size class. [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] was the only Supreme in this line; a Supreme [[Optimus Primal]] toy was planned to be in this line, but was moved to ''Robots in Disguise''. Both of these supreme class designs featured electronic lights and sounds. Supreme Optimus Primal even featured speech by voice actor [[Garry Chalk]].

Two additional size classes, [[Deployer|Deployers]] (US$5) and [[Beast Rider|Beast Riders]] (US$10) would turn out to be short-lived. The size of Ultra toys was increased while maintaining the price.

==Robots in Disguise==
''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' used the ''Beast Machines'' size classes, though the Basic price point was once again lowered to US$5. However, most of the toys at this price point were either [[Spychanger]] two-packs or [[Redeco|redecoed]] ''Generation 1'' combiner limbs, making them somewhat smaller and less intricate than previous lines' Basics (a notable exception is [[Obsidian (RID)|the recolor]] of [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]], which was sold for less than the original version).

''Robots in Disguise'' also had three Mega-priced multipacks of smaller figures (the three smaller Predacons, a trio of recolored ''Beast Machines'' Basics as Autobots, and the recolored [[Laser Cycle|Laser Cycles]]).

Several of the line's toys ran afoul of the differences between US and Japanese packaging policies. The [[Team Bullet Train]] toys were individually packaged as Megas, despite being smaller than the usual members of that size class. The near-Basic-sized [[Wedge]] was sold as a Deluxe.

==Armada==
The ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' toyline renamed or repurposed all the existing price points:

* '''Mini-Con,''' at US$6.50 replaced the Basic price point, with 3-packs of [[Mini-Con|Mini-Cons]].
* '''Super-Con,''' at US$10 replaced the Deluxe.
* '''Max-Con,''' at US$20 replaced the Ultra. All Max-Cons had electronic sound effects.
* '''Giga-Con,''' at US$25. All Giga-Cons (except for [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Tidal Wave]]) featured electronic lights and sounds.
* '''Super-Base,''' at US$40 replaced Super, but used the Supreme price point. The only figure of this class was [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]], who featured an infrared-activated automatic transformation gimmick, as well as lights and sounds.
* "[[Unicron]]" was in his own class using the Supreme size, at US$50. He had lights, but no sounds.

The old US$15 price, previously used by the Mega size class, was effectively discontinued, taken up by role-play toys like the [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]] and the [[Star Saber (Armada)|Dark Saber]].

==Universe (2003)==
The original ''[[Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' line used the ''Beast Wars'' size class designations, but only had '''Deluxe''' and '''Ultra''' (the latter at US$20).

After the ''Universe'' line as such had effectively ended, repackaged ''Energon'' (and even later, ''Cybertron'') toys were sold on ''Universe'' cards as discount chain [[Exclusive|exclusives]], divided into the price points '''Basic''' (US$5) and '''Deluxe''' (US$8).

==Alternators==
The ''[[Alternators (toyline)|Alternators]]'' line was unique insofar as it only consisted of one single price point (US$20). This was owed to the uniform [[scale]] of the line at 1:24, as well as the fact that all the toys from the line were based on licensed vehicles.

Some retailers actually listed the toys under the "Mega" price point, but this designation was never officially used by Hasbro. In fact, there was an official "Mega Alternators" assortment of sorts, which consisted of shrinkwrapped two-packs consisting of two individual toys (mostly limited to [[Shelfwarmer|shelfwarmers]] such as [[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokescreen]], [[Sideswipe (G1)|Side Swipe]] or [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]]), available for the price of a single Alternators toy exclusively at Toys'R'Us.

Hasbro later replaced the original mass retail Alternators assortment with a second one, which remained at the original one's price point. In the case of Alternators [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]], Hasbro reportedly accepted a smaller profit margin (since the toy was more expensive to produce than other Alternators toys) so they could still sell it at the US$20 price point.

==Energon==
''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]'' took a somewhat random approach to size-class naming. The second [[Energon (mini-comic)|pack-in catalog]] introduced the size class range as

* '''Energon''' (Basic), with the price back to US$7
* '''Combat''' (Deluxe) - US$10.
* '''Mega Combat''' (the former "Max-Con") - US$20. All Mega Combat (and the subsequently renamed Mega Class) figures featured sound effects.
* '''Commanders''' (the former "Giga-Con") - US$25. Commanders had lights and sounds depending on the figure.
* '''Leaders''' (the former "Super Base") - US$40. Leaders featured both lights and sounds.
* [[Unicron]] was given no size class - US$50.

The third [[catalog]] explicitly referred to the price points as

* '''Energon Class'''
* '''Combat Class'''
* '''Mega Class'''
* '''Command Class'''
* '''Leaders Class'''
* Omega Supreme was given no size class.

The fourth and final catalog continued using the terms originated by the third (although listed no price points for the combiners), but finally listed Omega Supreme as '''Supreme Class'''.

==Cybertron==
''[[Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' changed the naming of some size classes, but retained others:

* '''[[Legends Class|Legends of Cybertron]],''' at US$3, with tiny [[Market six]]-aimed figures.
* '''Mini-Con Class,''' at US$5 was added for the Mini-Con two-packs.
* '''Scout Class,''' at US$7, formerly Energon Class.
* '''Deluxe Class,''' at US$10, formerly Combat Class.
* '''Voyager Class,''' at US$20, formerly Mega Class. Sound effects were dropped from all but three figures in this size class. [[Vector Prime]], [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]] and his smarter remold Dark Crumplezone retained their sound effects gimmick.
* '''Ultra Class,''' at US$25, formerly Command Class. Ultra class toys had lights and sounds.
* '''Leader Class,''' dropping the plural "s" from the previous "Leaders Class". Leader class figures featured lights and sounds, and (except for [[Metroplex (Cybertron)|Metroplex]]) featured several [[Cyber Planet Key]] gimmicks.
* '''Supreme Class,''' remained the same. Supreme class figures had lights and sounds, with several different Cyber Planet Key gimmicks. [[Primus]] featured an [[Omega Lock]] accessory gimmick that was essential for his transformation.

==Classics==
''[[Classics (2006)|Classics]]'' kept the Deluxe and Voyager classes, renamed as

* '''Legends,''' at US$4 - Legends of Cybertron repaints, raised $1 in price.
* '''Mini-Con,''' at US$7, in three-packs again, replacing the Scout Class price point.
* '''Classic Deluxe,''' at US$10.
* '''Classic Voyager,''' at US$20.

==Movie==
''Transformers'', the [[Movie (toyline)|toyline]] based on the 2007 [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]], retained many size classes from before:

* '''Legends Class,''' at US$4.
* '''Scout Class,''' at US$7.
* '''Deluxe Class,''' at US$10.
* '''Voyager Class,''' at US$20. Continuing on from the standards set in ''Cybertron'' and ''Classics'', ''Movie'' Voyagers featured no electronics unless they were redecos of toys from previous lines.
* '''Ultra Class,''' at US$25. (Consisted of two Toys "R" Us [[exclusive]] ''Cybertron'' redecoes.)
* '''Leader Class,''' at US$40. The Leaders featured electronic lights and sounds, usually attached to a spring-loaded [[Automorph|Automorphing]] gimmick.

The '''Supreme''' class was dropped. The Scout Class, which consisted entirely of [[Redeco|redecos]] of toys from the ''Energon'' and ''Cybertron'' toylines, was exclusively available at Target stores in the USA, but was sold at mass retail in Europe and Canada. Additionally, there was a gimmick-based sub-line named '''[[Fast Action Battlers]]''', which also sold at US$10 (like the Deluxe Class toys); a simplistic, cutesy sub-line aimed at young children named ''[[Cyber Slammers]]'', which also sold for US$8; and a new US$90 figure sold as '''Ultimate Bumblebee.'''

''[[Revenge of the Fallen]]'' retains the same classes, but adds a "Supreme Combiner" class for the dog-sized [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] toy.

==Animated==
The [[Animated (toyline)|''Transformers Animated'' toyline]] has the following size classes:

* '''Activators''', at US $8. Features an automorph gimmick.
* '''Deluxe Class''', at US$10.
* '''Voyager Class''', at US$20.
* '''Leader Class''', at US$40. Features electronic lights and sounds, including speech samples voiced by the actors from the cartoon.
* '''Supreme Class''', at US$50. Only Roll-out Supreme Optimus Prime got released for this price point. It features electronic lights and sounds, including speech samples voiced by [[David Kaye]].

In addition, the [[Bumper Battlers]] size class replaces the movie line's [[Cyber Slammers]], going one better by featuring an extensive array of voice samples and sound effects. However, with this comes a price increase to US$10. Legends Class toys of the Animated cast are being released as part of the ''[[Universe (2008 franchise)|Universe]]'' toyline instead.

==Universe (2008)==
The 2008 [[Universe (2008 franchise)|''Transformers Universe'' toyline]] has the following confirmed size classes:

* '''Legends Class''', at US$4.
* '''Deluxe Class''', at US$10.
* '''Voyager Class''', at US$20. Several of the redecos and retools of ''Cybertron'' toys respectively, have had their sound effects removed and the battery compartments riveted shut, owing to pricing changes in this price point between their original manufacture and release in Universe.
* '''Ultra Class''', at US$25. Ultra class have lights and sounds for all-new figures.
* '''Supreme Class''', at US$50. This size class consists solely of the Toys 'R' Us exclusive repackaged ''Armada'' [[Unicron]].

==Size class chart==
Class names, organized by toy line and approximate price point:

{|border="1" style="line-height:100%;border-collapse:collapse;"
|-
|Price
!BW!!BM!!RiD!!Armada!!colspan="2"|Energon!!Universe!!Cybertron!!Classics!!Movie!!Animated!!Universe!!RotF
|-
|$3|| || || || || || || ||Legends of Cybertron|| || || ||
|-
|$4|| || || || || || || || ||Legends||Legends|| ||Legends||Legends
|-
|$5||Basic|| ||Basic|| || || ||Basic||Mini-Cons|| || || || ||
|-
|$7|| ||Basic|| ||Mini-Con||Basic||Energon|| ||Scout||Mini-Con||Scout||Activators|| ||Scout
|-
|$10||Deluxe||Deluxe||Deluxe||Super-Con||Combat||Combat||Deluxe||Deluxe||Classic Deluxe||Deluxe||Deluxe||Deluxe||Deluxe
|-
|$15||Mega||Mega||Mega|| || || || || || || || ||
|-
|$20||Ultra||Ultra||Ultra||Max-Con||Mega Combat||Mega||Ultra||Voyager||Classic Voyager||Voyager||Voyager||Voyager||Voyager
|-
|$25|| || || ||Giga-Con||Commanders||Command|| ||Ultra|| ||Ultra|| ||Ultra
|-
|$30||Super||Super||Super|| || || || || || || || ||
|-
|$40|| ||Supreme||Supreme||Super-Base||Leaders||Leaders|| ||Leader|| ||Leader||Leader|| ||Leader
|-
|$50|| || || || ||Unicron||Supreme|| ||Supreme|| || ||Supreme||Supreme
|-
|$90|| || || || || || || || || ||Ultimate|| || ||Ultimate
|-
|$100|| || || || || || || || || || || || ||Supreme Combiner
|}

[[Category:Toys]]