MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Tripredacus Council

2010-05-17T20:54:36Z

Cold Rod:

{{factions|predacon}}
:''The Tripredacus Council is a group of [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] from the [[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:TripredacusCouncil1.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"So then it is agreed: half pepperoni, half green peppers."]]
The '''Tripredacus Council''' is one of the many ruling bodies of the fractured [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] [[Predacon Alliance|Alliance]]. They meet in secret in undisclosed locations, and plot the return of the Predacons to glory, though under their terms. They choose to wait and grow strong before attacking, but many Predacons are impatient. This has led to some rogue behavior among the Predacon ranks.

One of their agents, [[Tarantulas]] of the Predacon Secret Police, suggests that, like himself and unlike the rest of the Predacons, the Tripredacus Council are not descended from the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]] trapped on [[Earth]]. Instead, they may have [[Ancient gods|extradimensional origins]], be linked to the [[Cybertronian (faction)|Cybertronian Empire]], or may be, in fact, creations of [[Unicron]] himself...

The three members of the Tripredacus Council are:

*[[Ram Horn|General Ram Horn]]
*[[Sea Clamp|General Sea Clamp]]
*[[Cicadacon|General Cicadacon]]

They can combine to form [[Tripredacus]].

Their known affiliates and agents include:

*[[Flamewar]]
*[[Magmatron]]
*[[Onyx Primal]]
*[[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]]
*[[Tarantulas]]

:''Japanese name:'' '''Trypticon Council'''

==Fiction==
===Descent into Evil===
{{storylink|Descent into Evil}}

===Dawn of Future's Past===
They killed [[Razorclaw (G1)|Razorclaw]] to seize control of the Predacons from him! Boo hiss! (Why they surrendered when the Predacons were doing well is not said) <ref>Timelines Razorclaw's bio card</ref>

{{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past}}

===''Beast Wars'' cartoon===
The [[transwarp wavefront]] caused by the destruction of the [[Planet Buster]] eventually reached Cybertronian space in the [[Beast Era]], hitting [[Predacon Command Outpost One]], causing a severe power outage. The council apparently convened on the station immediately afterward, where they noted that the transwarp wave's signature matched that of the ''[[Darksyde]]'', thus meaning that Megatron still functioned, and was still carrying out his secret agenda. In order to prevent the Maximals from discovering this, they detonate a satellite somewhere near Cybertron, dispersing the wave before it reaches the planet. They then dispatched Covert Agent [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]] in a prototype [[transwarp cruiser]] to track the wave to its point of origin and terminate Megatron "with extreme prejudice". {{storylink|The Agenda (Part 1)}}

It turns out the Council actually ''wanted'' their agent Tarantulas in Earth's prehistory, as they had a plan to have the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] and its inhabitants destroyed. As they did not have Autobot or Decepticon origins, the Council would be spared the resulting [[timestorm]] and would take control of an altered Cybertron. Their own goal was galactic conquest. Of course. {{storylink|Other Victories}}

====IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics====
[[Image:Tripredacuscouncilidw.jpg|right|250px|thumb|They watch lots of TV.]]
The council orders [[Magmatron]] to ensure that the [[Maximal|Maximals]] did not have knowledge of the transwarp wave. {{storylink|The Gathering issue 1}} They believe that the Predacons must wait for the appropriate moment to strike. Many Predacons, however, tire of this strategy. A short time later, after the failure of their first agent, [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], the council sends Magmatron to capture [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|The Gathering issue 2}}

{{-}}

==Notes==
*The names of the Tripredacus Council members are taken from "[[The Agenda (Part 1)]]"'s original script.{{fact}}

==References==
{{Reflist}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Combiner teams]]
[[Category:Politicians]]
[[Category:Predacon leaders]]
[[Category:Predacon subgroups]]
[[Category:Timelines]]
[[Category:Transformer governments]]

Multiversal singularity

2010-05-17T20:39:36Z

Cold Rod: /* Known multiversal singularities */

Across the [[multiverse]], there are [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|many]] [[Megatron (disambiguation)|versions]] [[Starscream (disambiguation)|of]] [[Bumblebee (disambiguation)|many]] [[Ultra Magnus (disambiguation)|beings]], each existing independently of each other. They may share similarities, or they may be [[Shattered Glass (franchise)|complete]] opposites, but each is their own unique individual. However, there are a handful of beings of which there is only one, a single entity without a counterpart in the multiverse. Traditionally of great significance, these beings may exist across multiple universes (even all universes) simultaneously yet remain a single individual (as does Primus) or they may only reside in one universe at a time but have the ability to move from universe to universe at will (as does Unicron).

== Multiversal Dynamics ==

The exact nature of Multiversal singularities was expounded on by Hasbro in a recent Q and A response. It is interesting and complex enough to merit reproducing in full:

''"The complex nature of the multiverse demands much from singular creatures like the Fallen, Primus, Unicron, the 13, etc. These beings are of a fundamentally different nature from regular individuals, who are repeated endlessly throughout the infinite variation of creation. They must be designed or evolved to deal with certain situations that would drive lesser beings mad.''

''First of all, time flows differently from dimension to dimension. By necessity, this makes it possible for creatures like the Fallen to appear to exist in two places at the same time. Second, whole new universes are spawned every moment by the resolution of quantum uncertainty. Most of these universes are dead ends that exist for only a few seconds or minutes at most, and encompass only a few critical moments. Therefore, at certain critical junctures, the Fallen becomes a quantum event, experiencing two or more possible outcomes at once, until one of those outcomes proves to be a dead end and collapses. The Fallen then reverts back to the "real" universe. Every story has dozens or hundreds of endings we never see. But the Fallen sees them.''

''One of the side effects of the Fallen's quantum nature is that his appearance changes slightly from dimension to dimension, based on the expectations of others, and the unique history he has (or has not) established in a particular dimension. He is also bound by the "rules" (gravity, magnetism, etc.) of any dimension in which appears – many of which rules he may have actually helped shape when the multiverse was young. So if time flows backwards in a certain dimension, he is bound to live and experience – forgetting as he goes along – everything backwards.''

''Smart and savvy dimensional travelers spend time in reverse timescale dimensions, slow-time dimensions, or dimensions in which time does not move at all. This ensures that even if they are "killed," they continue to exist. As you can see, the idea of sequential experience as you and I understand it is pretty meaningless to guys like the Fallen. He does experience all these things, but his mind operates on a higher order so all of this stuff totally makes sense to him."''

==Known multiversal singularities==
*[[Primus]]
*[[Unicron]]
*[[Vector Sigma]]
*[[Thirteen original Transformers]]
:*[[Prima]]
:*[[Vector Prime]]
:*[[Nexus Prime]]
:**[[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]]
:**[[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]]
:**[[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]]
:**[[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]]
:**[[Heatwave]]
:*[[The Fallen#Generation 1|The Fallen]]
:*[[Soundblaster (Cybertron)|Logos Prime]]

[[Category:Biology]]

Talk:The Fallen

2010-05-17T20:23:51Z

Cold Rod:

That bit about how the Fallen was created by Pat Lee? In the latest edition of Wayward's [http://www.insecticons.com/insecticomics.html Insecticomics] it is said that it was actually Furman who created the character, that Lee just did the design. When I asked her about it, she posted this [http://p206.ezboard.com/fthepaddedcell71381frm19.showMessage?topicID=2995.topic&index=107 transcript] which backs that up. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 14:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

OK so I just left line in the trivia, cos I thought it was funny.
* So he's the henchman of a evil being, has mystical supernatural powers, is a badass and is on fire? Someone might want to file a law suit.

Can it stay or should I take it back down?[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 09:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

..I don't even get that. [[User:AlwaysWrong|AlwaysWrong]] 22:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:It was removed, it contained a link to the wikipedia article for Ghost Rider[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 09:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

==Head==
Anyone notice that his head is very Soundwave-y? When i first saw him, i clearly recognized his head as soundwave's with added badassery.--[[User:Skyglide|Skyglide]] 05:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

==Disambig time?==
http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/default.cfm?page=News/Item&newsid=59522272-D56F-E112-4C783175A8BBBAD6

Ah-heh.

(SOMEBODY IN THAT MOVIE DAMN WELL BETTER BE ON FIRE.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

==Fallen, Bludgeon and Megs==

I don't know about Bludgeon, but there is a connection between the Fallen and Megs: IDW Megatron's Cybertronian body is based off of the Fallen, right down to the design of the Fusion Cannon. [[User:GWolfv2]] 21.07 June 11

== Defiance issue 4 Fallen's backstory ==

Defiance issue 4 is out. [http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-movie-just-movie-31/revenge-of-the-fallen-prequel-comic-defiance-4-provides-potential-movie-spoilers-167267/ TFW2005.com has posted all the Fallen-relevant spoilers from issue 4, but beware, if you're avoiding Defiance, this spoils the Fallen's crazy scheme in the movie]. The backstory for the Fallen seems fairly different to the Fallen we know. So are they still the same guy? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:56, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
:Still appears to be a member of the Thirteen, still appears to betray them, still apparently serves a force that devours planets/stars.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:12, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
::But from what I understand of the "multiversal singularity" characters thing, there's just one Fallen, so the guy created by Primus who eventually serves Unicron is also a guy created by a Cube who serves nobody but himself and is building solar towers to replenish the Cube. Or is the currently-untold story of the 13 vague enough that this still works? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:20, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
::It does seem pretty distinct. One's a "created by mighty power source, got selfish, betrayed his brothers, now want to kick off where things went wrong" other "created as a multiversal control for entrophy and warrior against Unicron. Switched sides. Most dangerous servant of the ultimate evil ever". [[User:Eire]] 21.21 Apr 8 2009 (UTC)
:I don't trust a 3rd party summary written by someone who may not fully understand the story to accurately represent what's actually in the story. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:44, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
::In any case, I suspect we are probably going to need to wait to see what the movie itself has to say before making a decision on this. It may expand on what is presented in the comic, it may contradict it in some way, it could make it easier to tie this version in with the previous mythos or may firmly separate it, etc. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 17:54, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I don't think we would have to wait until the movie if the comic is fairly clear on the matter. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:59, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
::::I think we do, because as I said, we have no way of knowing in advance how well the actual movie will line up with the comic. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 18:05, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
:The Fallen is one thing, but what about definite "multiversal singularity" Primus? Does the AllSpark=Primus in the movieverse? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:59, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
::The AllSpark has been designated a [[sacred implement]] in Japanese fiction.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:07, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
:::It is not uncommon for Transformers to have no knowledge of Primus or Unicron. For every world where they have a full-blown religion to fill them in, you have one where the Transformers have neither heard of either-- remember in [[The Transformers: The Movie]] Hot Rod and Kup had never even heard Unicron's name before. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:06, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
Did they not mention that the Fallen calls himself and his other pals "trans-dimensional beings"? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:48, 8 April 2009 (EDT)
:Not the mention [http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2009-04-01-transformers-first-look_N.htm this interview] affirming he's the original and was "banished to another dimension." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:06, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think what they mean by that is that he's stuck in that stupid pylon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:15, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

==The Fallen gets Power Plans!==
[http://transformerslive.blogspot.com/2009/05/transformers-movie-universe-preview.html] Preview page from the upcoming DK Ultimate Movie Guide, which is totally written by Furman. It establishes a few important things. The Fallen is an "omniversal tyrant." He betrayed his fellow Primes to serve the source of his new "chaotic" powers "from the very birth of the universe," forces which seek to replace morality with a "void." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:06, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:If Nimoy is cast as him, it will be the second time in his career that he'll be playing some sort of servant of Unicron. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:36, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

== Subject Seperation ==

Will you make a separate page the live action version of the Fallen? --Some Random User guy {{unsigned|69.230.53.229|00:50, May 20, 2009 EDT}}
:As we far as we know, the Fallen is a multi-dimensional being that can... you get the picture. If this Fallen is established as a seperate being, then maybe.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:01, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::And as seen in Walky's post above this, the DK guide establishes the Fallen as an "Omniversal tyrant". That more or less means the Fallen is one of those characters who can travel between dimensions, and there's only one of him. Thus, we consider ROTF Fallen to be the same guy as Dreamwave comics Fallen, unless the movie says otherwise (and it obviously won't). --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:36, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::Despite the brain-bending problems this creates with the other 12, yes. Are they all birthed by the AllSpark then? That's not what The Ultimate Guide says... (We'll figure it out. Expect the backpedaling, qualifications and clarifications to begin trickling in this fall.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:15, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:::You know, the movie universe could have two individuals named the Fallen. I mean, it's not a real name, but rather a sort of title, right? Why couldn't the omniversal tyrant and some douchebag that came from the allspark live in the same universe? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:26, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:::'''Two''' dimension-hopping flaming ancient Primes who discarded their name in favor of being called "The Fallen" after betraying their 12 fellow Primes, the oldest of Transformers?
:::We already have the Covenant and the Thirteen. Don't make this ''more'' complicated. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:39, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I personally think they should be seperated. I mean, he's been trapped in that relic, or whatever it exactly is, for a really long time. How could he of shown up in the IDW series? And, the other 12 sacrificed themselves, so, how could they exist either? -[[User:VakamaMetruNui|VakamaMetruNui]] 09:29, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::::(The Dreamwave series, not the IDW series.) That's really easy to explain. The DW Fallen was also trapped in a dimension, same as the Movie one. He was able to break free of it due to a space bridge accident, and was apparently banished back to it by Primus. (He would have returned if DW hadn't gone bankrupt, so he wasn't dead.) Who knows how time and space work in there. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:11, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::Unicron keeps showing up in new places yet always gets defeated in more or less the same way; why should his gothy wanna-be have it any better? Since his "real" origin was as a creation of Primus, perhaps the entire Movie Allspark / Movie Original 13 was something the Fallen himself put together later--he tried his own hand at being a god, while actually not claiming credit for it but just inserting himself among the lineup, like Keyser Soze. Or maybe he used his woowoo omniversal magic to sense that some other god was about to create the Allspark, and then he twisted the whole process to his own ends. Who knows. And if all that sounds like a deus-ex-machina, remember that that is LITERALLY what he is. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:24, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Defianceissue4-creation.jpg|right|thumb|100px|What dimension did this happen in? The movie-verse? Not necessarily.]]
::::::I think splitting the page of a known dimension-hopper goes against common sense. Without a really good reason, of course. I don't think there is a good reason yet. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:47, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::At BotCon 2009, Hasbro copy-writer Forest Lee stated once again (at the Collectors' Club panel) that the Original 13 are all multiversal singularities. Apparently the upcoming movie hasn't changed his mind! So let's hold on to our current setup for the time being. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:11, 2 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::He didn't state this before, IIRC he stated that they were ''probably'' Multiversal singularities before.
::::::::Do you or anyone (Steve) have an exact working on his statement this weekend? It's worth citing it on the 13 page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:52, 2 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I don't, no. And Steve-o wasn't there this weekend, so we are without his meticulous information-gathering. He did specifically say that the original 13 were multiversal singularities, though. It was in response to someone asking if Shattered Glass The Fallen would be icy. Forest said that as one of the 13, The Fallen doesn't have any multiverse counterparts. There's just one of him, the same as Vector Prime and the others. (Trent noted that he liked to believe that if the Fallen were to ever wander into the Shattered universe, his flames would turn to ice, much to his confusion.)--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:53, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

== Movie altmode ==

FYI: If we get Hasbro photography depicting a toy with an altmode (we have!) and the paragraph in question is describing that toy, then ''the presence of said altmode is officially confirmed''. I don't know under what logic you can say otherwise.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:10, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:Remember Scorponok's robot mode? I believe the debate is whether or not The Fallen's vehicle mode was something invented for the toyline. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 20:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
::Except the altmode description was removed from the toy section. The toy has an altmode. Plain as day. Thus the section describing that toy ought to mention said altmode.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:07, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Ah, right then. Well... most of what I said can be salvaged, assuming this argument comes up outside the toy section. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 21:14, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Decepticon symbol ==

I see there is a Decepticon symbol on The Fallen's page for a long while, is this something related to his toy(s)? Thanks. (I can't reach my Titanium Fallen now, so... ) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:24, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
: His ROTF toy packaging consistently labels him a Decepticon. He helped Megatron START the Decepticon faction in the live-action continuity. And the Decepticon faction symbol is based on his face. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:35, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

:::So it is really due to the ROTF. Thanks. ;-D --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 12:55, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

::What they said.
::I notice the Beast-machines Dinobots symbol links to the Dinobots disambig page-- was it used tor the Wal-Mart Dinobots as well? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:56, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

==Mainpic==
When the Wikia site comes up on Google, it also has a secondary link, which is their version of this page. Our secondary link is [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|''Animated'']], which is unfortunately now a bit less relevant than theirs. (Notably, they've even rebranded their site to have a Movie look.) Happily, our [[The Fallen]] is much better than theirs because we've expanded the DW section, and they still haven't written ANYTHING about the prequel comics. Plus, y'know, there's [[:Image:WikiaAdInsert_TheFallen.jpg|the stuff that made us leave in the first place]]. But in the interests of sealing the relevancy deal, I suggest we change the mainpic to be The Fallen's ROTF body. That way even at a GLANCE a viewer can see which one is more up-to-date. What do you all think? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:23, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:I support this. We've got good promo renders of it. Let's do it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sounds good to me, I say go for it. Maybe change it back when the movie buzz fades down, but for now, yeah, totally. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:44, 4 June 2009 (EDT)
::Heh, so they merged the articles back. TX55 was an editor here. Doesn't he notice the borked layout of the images? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

===New main pic===
[[Image:ROTF The Fallen promotional 1.jpg|thumb|right|250px|You dare photograph me?! I am a a Prime!]]
Swap the current one for a promotional shot from [[Josh Nizzi]]'s website? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 13:58, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
:Naw, I prefer the one we have now. Flashier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 14:12, 21 July 2009 (EDT)

==Grargh fiction==
Do we really need to separate out his various DK Ultimate Guide and Titanium information into their own little sections. Can't we throw those into the beginning of the Dreamwave continuity section and cite them appropriately? This page is now a real friggin' chore to read and understand. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:58, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, it sorta feels like it's... out of order. Cause, it is. Fictionally. I mean, I grok what Jackpot has done - he's put it in publication order, which I know is an approach that he's generall favoured in the past, but to me, it just doesn't "read" right. (Also, I am totally about to ruin the "he is on fire" joke. Watch me go!) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:05, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::I feel a little weird about combining them like that, but I don't full-on object. I don't think there's ever been precedent for putting toy-bio info into a comic-series summary, but in this case there was clearly intent behind the bio to make it mesh, and there are no variant ''War Within'' "continuities." All I can do is note that it's unorthodox and move along.
::Oh, and Walky, thanks for restoring the continuity-family headers. My theory is that since our default organizational model is to separate our articles based on continuity family, whenever we break that "rule," we should call it out.
::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:49, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

==Really not buying the 'multiversal singularity' thing here==
Recently, I saw the new movie and....... I don't see how it could possibly be the same character as in Dreamwave's comics.
Not only is his entire backstory different, but his motives also seem different and the film also makes mention that The Fallen was a member of 8 original leaders (if I remember correctly), as opposed to 13.
Not to mention his radically different appearance (the other 'multiversal singularities' at least all looked alike) and abilities.

Unless the writers find a way of explaining how this could be possible, I don't see how it makes any form of sense.
:The fact it's 8 and not 13 is the first sign that the writers ''intend'' to explain it. They're backpedaling away from making it "The 13" because it creates ''way'' to many problems.
:We all basically agree that it makes not sense now, but this ('''very''' last-minute) change strongly indicates that it ''will'' make sense, and that Hasbro's story-gurus has finally figured out how they intend to make it fit. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:33, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::I seriously doubt that Hasbro's story-gurus had any imput whatsoever on the contents of the movie itself. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:35, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, I think that rather than being The 'Multiversal Singularity' Fallen, The (ROTF) Fallen is just a 'fallen' Prime who is subsequently and coincidentally called "The Fallen". He happens to have the same name, like Prowl, Prowl, Prowl, Prowl and Prowl.[[Special:Contributions/218.214.49.189|218.214.49.189]] 21:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::That's nice, but Hasbro's packaging bio writer is saying that's not the case. Thus we have to go with what he says. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
So... Doesn't this mean that since he died in the movie, he has died in all universes forever, since he is a "multiversal singularity"?[[Special:Contributions/76.251.230.101|76.251.230.101]] 19:59, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
:When a multiversal singularity "dies" in one universe, he'll reappear in another universe --[[Special:Contributions/72.64.107.124|72.64.107.124]] 20:02, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::I've seen that idea expressed on the Wiki before, but I've never seen a source for it. Basically... says who? In fact, most of what we "know" about multiversal singularities comes not from the fiction itself, but from creator comments. I don't agree with putting [[authorial intent]] on that high a pedestal, especially when its results are flat-out nonsensical. I think that at best, author-intent should get a Note, not define central aspects of how we describe characters. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:16, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
:::Hear hear! Besides, saying that a character is a multiuniversal singularity only lasts until someone else says he's not. Then we get a weird state of 'he's mostly a multiuniversal singularity, except where he isn't' situation. I think this sort of notion warrants about as much consideration as a Madman DVD book saying that Cyclonus categorically was Skywarp - we note it, then we go on with the rest of our lives. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:37, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::There's at least some indication that Mowry and Furman are going to attempt to reconcile the multiversal singularity thing, or at least hang a lampshade on it and run with it, in [[Tales of the Fallen]]. We may get our answer soon.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:09, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::''saying that a character is a multiuniversal singularity only lasts until someone else says he's not''
:::::Bingo. No matter how much people might like Forrest's ideas, it's just as much "authorial intent" whenever anybody else at Hasbro or IDW or Bay's workshop says something that contradicts him. We know he's multiversal, or "omniversal," whatever, because one of the movie guidebooks says so. I try not to think too hard about the "13-whoops-7-Primes" clusterfuck. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:48, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
:::I think the idea of Multiversal Singularities dieing in one universe and appearing in another has 2 sources: 1) Unicron - He's a multiversal singularity and this is demonstrably how he works, and 2) Vector Prime - After his death in the UT he's seen again in the final credits battling Galvatron again. Granted it's supposition, but I think that's the basis for the idea.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 21:22, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::Unicron's many deaths constitute one of the reasons why the multiversal-singularity idea is generally thought to be nonsensical. The idea that he "respawns" every time he's destroyed is a rationalization somebody here came up with; it's never been shown to ''happen'' in the fiction. And Vector Prime's case barely applies; he wasn't destroyed the way Unicron or The Fallen were; he just permanently phased outside of normal time because he overexerted his temporal powers. It was presumably in this non-time limbo that he battled Galvatron again, and where he will be forever. Ultimately, I think Rosicrucian's right: We should wait until "Tales of the Fallen" comes out before we make any hard-and-fast calls on the subject. But I've [[Talk:Unicron#"Respawning"?|long thought]] that we should be more rigorous about letting the fiction alone define "multiversal singularity" instead of the authors, and I'll be more than happy if future information radically changes what we think it means. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:43, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::The bio for TRU-excl. Universe Unicron says he travels through multiple dimensions and that whenever he dies he comes back to life. I don't think it says he has to be reobrn in a different dimension than the one he just died in, but honestly, once they've officialized and published the "multidimensionality and immortality" aspect, precisely where he is at ANY given moment in any life doesn't matter. But that's just Unicron--there's nothing as cut-and-dried in published form for the rest of them, I don't think. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:08, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::Ah, that's interesting. Let's [http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/2856639219_b4fb44b44e.jpg?v=0 take a look]... Hm, it actually sounds more like Vector Prime's existence than the hoppity-hop-from-universe-to-universe model that's been the wiki party line. Unicron "floats through the non-space between dimensions, reaching out with his sensors to find the universe with the most energy. Those dimensions he finds suitable, he consumes." Also, "He has been defeated or destroyed countless times, yet he always returns [...] for [...] He is evil incarnate, and as long as there is evil, there is Unicron." It sounds like, whereas Vector Prime is stuck outside of time and can only send messages (or swords) into the timestream, Unicron can actually manifest himself in a very real and devastating way. But they share some essential transcendent nature, which to me is a bit more sensical than the more linear model. I read it to mean that basically he can keep coming back because he's always got one foot outside of normal space-time, and destroying a specific incarnation will never be enough. It's not a full "death." Plus he's got that strange relation to the concept of evil, which is backed up in the ''Armada'' cartoon when only Galvatron's death and the resulting end of the war could destroy him. As you say, I don't know how this would apply to The Fallen or others, but one thing at a time... - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:06, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's not particularly relevant, but I just want to point out that Vector Prime ''did'' actually die, in the sense that his linear lifespan came to an end point. He continues to exist because ''prior'' to his death, he spent most of his existence outside of the timestream, and since time has no meaning there, he will ''always'' be there, watching and guiding. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:55, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

== Change of appearance ==

From TF; The Movie Universe
{{quote|The Fallen butchered and betrayed his brother Primes, disowning his given name in favor of one befitting his new, terrifying appearance.|[[Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe]] p86|"The Fallen"}}
Late intot he game, we have the idea that The Fallen may have changed his appearance. (And since his appearance is really no different than the other Primes... it begs the question what the hell this is talking about.)

Oh, and Walky was wondering abotu the curiously-regular panes of transparent plastic on The Fallen toy's shoulders... accordign to the guidebook, he has "Energon Distribution arcs" in his shoulders-- I think they're actually supposed to represent some sort of energy blade. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:44, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

== Unreliable narrator ==

So I saw the ROTF film. It really doesn't clash with the Multiversal Singularity thing too bad... it's Defiance that's the real problem. And I'm beginning to think that Definace just had a ''serious'' case of "unreliable narrator."

Let's assume (for a moment) that the Fallen ''was'' lying about parts of his backstory to Megatron. He certainly didn't mention Primus or Unicron (so we know he left stuff out) and we know he was snowing Megatron about making him a Prime (something you apparently have to be born to in the Movieverse.) He's ALREADY demonstrably lying, so lets throw out everything he said about his own origins, and assume he's actually the same dimension-hopping spanish-speaking nutjob we know and love-- what would the universe 'look' like?

Logically, The Fallen {{redact|''traveled'' to this universe and integrated himself with it-- somehow convincing the six Founding Primes of the universe that he was one of them. He then secretly endeavored to murder them all, destroy the Earth and seize ultimate power for himself using the sun harvester.}}

Of course, if this was '''actually''' what happened, and The Fallen is lying... you'd expect there to be some ''indicator['' of this in the IDW comics.

[[Image:Ros03 cuberitual.png|thumb|250px]]
Oh hey, look at that! It's the ancient illustration Starscream was trying to replicate in "Reign of Starscream"! The ''only'' piece of evidence from the era of the original Primes that ''doesn't'' come from our Unreliable Narrator. And what does it show?
{{redact|'''Six''' Primes surrounding the AllSpark cube as it is renewed by the Sun Harvester. '''Not''' seven.}} -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:55, 24 June 2009 (EDT)
:As much as I really want to make this all work, I don't know if I want to go the Unreliable Narrator route. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:18, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
::Neither do I... but if IDW chooses to quietly change the 13 primes to the 7 in their Movie Spotlight books... at ''that'' point the Fallen's retelling of history becomes much more actively wrong, and this bit from Reign of Starscream fits quite nicely.
::I figured it was worth highlighting as a possibility. It wouldn't be appropriate to present it as "fact" until IDW gets a crack at it. (It seems almost inevitable that there are Retcons Comings.) But i was pleased to discover that there's at least one ''fairly'' clean way here to make things more-or-less fit, and it ties into some pre-established continuity arond Starscream's plan with the [[Replica Allspark]], which is a definite plus in terms of making the change less jarring. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:27, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Your way probably works better than my "the other 6 Primes were busy." But still, that's fanon until Forest Lee gets a crack at it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:31, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:::...That leaves me a little worried that we're putting our hopes on IDW. Especially since they caused quite a few of the problems. And lets not even get into their record of continuity consistency in okaying [[All Hail Megatron]]. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 00:34, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::But '''nothing''' the movies is 100% consistent with one another. Did you notice Leo mentioned the big fight from the 2007 movie took place in '''L.A.'''? And the IDW comics aren't in continuity with the ''first'' movie in a strict sense either-- Reign of starscream dedicated a page to re-doing the "gathering of the 'cons" from the dfirst movie ''just'' so they could assert "no, he's called BRAWL damnit." Or the helicopter being shot down over <strike>Afganistan</strike> America.
:::::Frankly, I think think the wiki would be best off is we weaned ourselves of this tendency to present the IDW comics as somehow "the primary continuity." They're definitely bound up tightly with the movies... but they ''aren't'' in perfect continuity with them-- and it's not just oddities, it's outright deliberate contradiction, like the Brawl thing. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:57, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Until I get an official reasoning to change continuity flow of various fiction, I'd rather leave the articles as they are. Brawl thing - who cares, really? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:36, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::By which you mean "structured differently than every other fiction section on the wiki." ;)
:::::::(I'm not really pushing for the restructure either. Just talking in general terms.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:54, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I'm set in my ways, dagnabbit. Yeah, the movie kind of started the movement of supporting fiction such as comic books and novels more or less directly being in continuity with the primary fiction, something we saw later in Animated. As opposed to the traditional TF method of having comics and cartoons and books all going in completely different directions. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:26, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

::::You've got it backwards. The Mowry-penned stuff has some of the best internal consistency of the entire continuity.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:37, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Right, Mowry was foreshadowing the RotF plot in the second issue of Reign of Starscream, before ''anything'' had leaked. And he seems to have a pretty clear idea where almost ''every'' character "was" before and after the war, how they're related to one another, etc. He also did a ''lot'' of ground work to make the game drones fit right. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:57, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

== Voyager toy ==

The Voyager toy has slidable gauntlets, shinguards, and some kind of firey thing under the shinguards, but none of these are called out in the instructions, or seem to serve any point in either mode. Should this be mentioned in the article, and if not, does anyone know what the deal with them is?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 20:50, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== "saturn"? ==

Especially because the novel specifically says it's not Saturn, can we get rid of this? Unless it was revealed in an interview or on a toy bio or something, all the movie shows is that it's on the moon of a ringed planet - without specifically identifying it.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 19:22, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:I think it has to be Saturn unless it is a plot hole. Megatron just flies there in about a day or so. It has to be in the solar system, I think. Megatron was never shown to have a personal space bridge like Jetfire. Can Megatron travel faster-than-light? Possibly, but the space bridge seems to be this universe's faster-than-light technology. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:57, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
::I recall seeing something about how Megatron can travel interstellar distances, but that he's supposed to be one of the few Transformers who can. Additionally, we see the Decepticons travel to Earth in transition form, implying that they are coming from somewhere in the solar system. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:59, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, Megatron can travel interstellar distances, but in a day or two? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:02, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
::::And return with Starscream and Grindor? And have The Fallen and a buttload of new Hatchlings arrive not soon after? They can't be lightyears away. That'd basically be Yet Another Plothole. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:09, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::According to the Ultimate Guide, The Fallen actually can do something like a space bridge, so wouldn't it be possible for the Fallen to have brought them to the final battle? Unless the Fallen can only do personal transport.
:::::For Grindor, though, do we know he was actually on the Nemesis?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 22:47, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::I thought someone might suggest that about The Fallen, so I didn't argue that point. I think that if he has the ability to space bridge armies across interstellar distances I would wonder why he would need the Nemesis at all. Starscream also made it to the Nemesis but he had a little longer, he could have hailed a space taxi or something. I think the movie strongly implies the Decepticons traveled by protoform from a relatively short distance and landed on the aircraft carriers. Even The Fallen. He seems to have traveled by protoform. Maybe space bridging long distances uses too much energy? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:13, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Saturn" appears to have a nebula in the background in the movie.
:::::::Which means that unless you can provide a cite for it being Saturn, it's not Saturn. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:51, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

==Power of a Prime?==
Why is that important? --[[User:Boba Fett|Boba Fett]] 20:15, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:Why is pointing out the differences between the film itself and its adaptations important? Is that what you're asking? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:Why IS information about a Transformer in a Transfomers wiki important, I wonder? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:50, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
:The novel and comics are similar enough to the movie that they don't merit their own sections on the page, so the few significant differences that DO crop up need to go SOMEWHERE. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 20:53, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

==Main Pic==

Since the standard practice to to have the main image use the body the character first appeared in, rather than their most recent or more well known, shouldn't the main pic here be his Dreamwave body? [[User:Eire]] 23.45 18 Aug 09 (UTC)
:In this case it was changed so that movie visitors wouldn't reach the page and go "who the hell is this guy?" as well as to visually distinguish our article from Wikia's.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:25, 18 August 2009 (EDT)

==Leader Class==

I found a clip on Youtube about a Leader class The Fallen toy. It's extremely close to the CGI version in design and look and it comes with a staff. I think it's a fanmade one, but it's definitely worth noticing. I have proof. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q142a9Fl9_c]--[[User:Cydra|Cydra]] 09:49, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
: Yeah, that's a custom by FrenzyRumble. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:51, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

== Image:Vectorprimeut.jpg ==

OK, who put that there? The Fallen isn't even on it. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:07, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
: Read the caption and come back to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:09, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I just wasted two seconds on reading a caption which I have already memorized, and another ten on checking the image again. The Fallen is NOT on the image. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::...yes he is. See the guy behind Vector Prime? His silhouette matches The Fallen's. Pay special attention to the little spikey hangy-things on his crotch, plus the shape of his head. And don't talk to ME about wasting time. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:21, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::My bad. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:26, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

== Unable to edit ==
I noticed that I am unable to edit The Fallen page why is that. Also I thing the sarcophagus should have its own link and that it should be edited to make it more appropiate. --[[User:Naruotfox94|Narutofox94]] 10:04, 14 November 2009

== Lawson Exclusive EZ Fallen??? ==

Just noticed the pic of the 'Lawson exclusive' EZ figure.

Apparently the version of EZ Fallen released in the 2-pack with Soundwave was actually the standard US version, and the Takara-Tomy picture was incorrect. Unless anyone has an official source (in-hand pictures, on-line sales listings etc) that says the Japanese version of the Legends figure is any different from the US colours, I'd recommend deleting this photo. [[Special:Contributions/213.123.203.109|213.123.203.109]] 09:03, 1 December 2009 (EST)
:... that doesn't make any sense. If we don't have any in-hand photos, how do we know it's the SAME as the US release? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 10:10, 1 December 2009 (EST)
::So what you're saying is that we have this exclusive Legends Fallen, now released in Japan. You'd think it might show up ''somewhere''? But there's not a squeak of it on YouTube, on eBay, or for that matter ANY Transformers retailer or website you can care to name (trust me, I've checked). I realise it's supposedly an exclusive, but I can't think of another occasion in all my years of collecting when a figure's been commercially released and yet NO-ONE has seen it. As I say, I think it's just a bad photograph.

::Also, note that the two supposed 'exclusives' in this Lawson offer were Mudflap and The Fallen... which haven't actually been released in Japan as part of the main EZ line (nor have they been announced as forthcoming). So it would make sense that these are the standard US versions, which were Lawson store exclusives in Japan. Just like how ROTF Deluxes Dead End, Swerve and Stalker Scorponok were on general sale in the US but store exclusives in Japan.

::I seem to recall pictures of Takara Deluxe Ravage and Voyager Mixmaster with different paint apps too (extra purple on Ravage and a different coloured head on Mixmaster) - yet both releases ended up the same as their US counterparts. Early photos of the Takara combiner Devastator (shown in Hyber Hobby and Dengeki Hobby) has the US grey face that was later changed to red in Japan. We now know that the Deluxe red Rampage has a movie-accurate silver shovel, not the red one we saw in the early pictures. My point here is that promotional photos are notoriously unreliable.

::I realise I'm on shaky ground here - It's very difficult to prove something ''doesn't'' exist. But I think at the very least the point should be made on the page that this so-called redeco has never - to anyone's knowledge - been sighted outside of a low-res photo on the Takara website. And possibly never will.[[Special:Contributions/91.104.167.124|91.104.167.124]] 13:55, 7 December 2009 (EST)
:::This strikes me as a question that would easily be resolved if we had actual contact with the Japanese fanbase.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 7 December 2009 (EST)
::::OK, after a bit of research, I've discovered that the US and Japanese versions of these legends are IDENTICAL. There are pictures on TFW2005 (I think you need to be a member to sign into the forums) [http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-toy-discussion/281376-rotf-takara-v-hasbro-comparisons.html] So this page ''does'' need to be changed, as does Mudflap's.[[Special:Contributions/91.104.167.124|91.104.167.124]] 17:20, 7 December 2009 (EST)

== Page Quote ==

To be fair... whether or not it should be changed to LesterX's idea, the current quote does suck. It says pretty much zero about the Fallen's personality or motivation or purpose or anything. All it says is that he's from some past time period, which is true of every 13 member. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:21, 7 January 2010 (EST)
:I never was crazy about it but it does do a good job of summing up a pretty major aspect of the character. I'm gonna go through all his comic appearances and have a look for a better one (can't think of one from the movie) [[User:Eire]] 00.00 Jan 08 2009 (UTC)
::Change the top quote all you want, but "kali ma" is so not going away for another damn "Give me your face" joke. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:05, 7 January 2010 (EST)
:::No argument from me on ''that'' regard. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:14, 7 January 2010 (EST)

==Separate==
I recommend that this page be split into two different pages, as the backgrounds differ. (I would type in a label, but the thing won't let me) [[User:Cold Rod|Cold Rod]] 16:23, 17 May 2010 (EDT)