MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Sideways (Armada)

2010-07-12T15:52:00Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Multiversal Singularity? */

==Main image==
Hey, wasn't there a different Sideways profile pic at some point? One that wasn't just his head again, which is really redundant with the headshot of him just a further bit down the page? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: Fixed! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: I changed it earlier because the original pic there was total crap and tiny. Oddly enough I was going to use the Armada cardart (which has exactly the same pic you used), but I was warned against it for some reason. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

==RID Sideways = Armada Sideways==
I'm gonan throw out this interesting nugget-- RiD Sideways is the same character. Even JAPAN thinks so. Their Robotmasters page lists Sideways 1st appearance as RiD (or was it CR? It's been awhile, and it's moot for the purposes of this Wiki.) The POINT is, Armada is the SECOND toyline Sideways/Doubleface appeared in, not the first.

I noticed this as well. Also, I noticed that [[Axer]]`s page claims that he is the '''ONLY''' character to physically cross over from continuity to continuity. Based on the information from the article this is not likely true. Any objections?--[[User:Autobotx1010|Autobotx1010]] 19:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

:Okay, Sideway's page does indeed already say that R.I.D. sideways is the same person, and ditto with the Robot masters version. Scroll down, it's all there in the toy section. Sideways doesn't appear in the fiction for R.I.D., just the toy line, so only the toy was mentioned.
:Plus, Axer's page says he's the ''first'' character to cross continuity, not "only."
:You're joining an argument that is seventeen months old. It's been resolved for a while. --[[User:Atomic spaceman|Atomic spaceman]] 21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you assume that RM Sideways is the same character as Armada Sideways (a fair assumption) then it logically follows that RiD Sideways probably is as well. (he's no further removed from the Unicron Trilogy than is the Sideways in Robotmasters version of G1.) The fact that RiD sideway's packaging-partnet was another continuity-hopper lends credibility to this approach-- but the Takara stance that he 1st appeared in the line before Armada is the real clincher for me.

Disagreement? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I had the RiD toy listed on this page in the beginning, but thought instead to just suggest on both pages that they are probably the same guy. Believe me, I agree with you. But if there's enough support, back in here the RiD version goes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

RID Sideways was not a Japanese release. RID has no ties to Armada, either.
It's a name reuse, as the reused bio for RID Sideways was saw in Armada does not even relfect the same character. A ninja? Don't think so. RID Sideways was also an Autobot hero. Totally seperate character. Also want to point out that the character is named Doubleface in Japan, severing the ties to any "Sideways" name use for a toy that is US only.
--Bodycount

Hrm. Well for [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/32a177ffd616f66a reference] here's my post on the subject back in the day exploring the issue- the Takara site said CR BTW, though I don't have a link. (It's probably still up, but I have no idea where Takara's RM site is, so...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Bodycount- read the damn post I linked to.
*Takara says it's the same character, even with all the renaming.
*Though it didn't come through int he cartoon, Armada Sideways WAS suppsoedly a ninja
*Eat me
:-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Takara also recognized Galaxy Force as part of the Micron Trilogy and lists the characters as the same ones from the previous two shows. Do you also accept that idea? Oh, and I would eat you, but I don't think I can fit that much geek into my stomach.

Man, 2005 used to be the FUTURE, now it's already "back in the day." Anyway, I would agree with Derik the RiD Sideways is most likely the same guy. Unicron can dimension jump after all, and have his servants do the same. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, crap, Derik! I totally forgot about Takara listing RiD Sideways as RM Doubleface's first toy. Thanks for reminding me, and that's certainly enough to join the two probably-the-same guys into the same page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

...was this not in the first paragraph on the talk page? Admittedly, the usenet post was SPELLCHECKED, and thus much easier to understand. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I did edit this page last night, mostly at first I corrected the spelling on the RM section, then added a basic outline for RiD Sideways since there was nothing there when I got here, unaware of the connection between UT and RiD Sideways. However, I understand that somehow the RM Doubleface section got attributed to me. I never claimed that Doubleface was a different character, I just fixed some spelling errors, and I, like most fans, didn't know exactly what the connection was between RiD and Armada Sideways. I am not that useless. -- 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:And who are you, anyway? (I only bring it up because your identity is an important part of your statement here.)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

All this fussin' and fightin' last year when someone could've just looked up Hasbro's online bio for Armada Sideways and seen that it's almost a word-for-word lift from RiD Sideways. Same tech spec numbers, too.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 16:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

:Hasbro was just emerging from their steal-big-chunks-of-bios-from-old-bios phase at the time these were published. While strong evidence-in-favor (and admittedly we did overlook it) I doubt that it would have been considered decisive. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Turncoats ==

I think Sideways should retain the turncoat category, his 'actual alliance' being to Unicron nonwithstanding. If I look int he Turncoat category, i expect to see characters who've switched sides, and that's Sideways. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:He didn't really switch sides. He was working for Unicron the entire time, and that job has him ''posing'' as both an Autobot and a Decepticon. If that's being a turncoat, then we need to put Punch, Armada Jetfire and Armada Scavenger in there as well, because they were also Decepticons at some point. Imagine three factions, A, B and C. If a guy from side A goes undercover as a B and later "betrayes" be and "becomes" a C, his true alligence is still with A, as he never was actually a B or C anyway. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

::And all those American soldiers who went and fight for the British weren't turncoats either- because that's where their loyalties always lay?
::That's the ''origin of the term''.
::I realize there's a difference between a turncoat and a double-agent... but sideways seems like he belongs in both somehow. :p Armada thrust, I assume, is a turncoat? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Uh, if Americans were fighting for the British in the American Revolution, then I don't see how their allegiance wasn't to Britain instead of America. I know you like to be incoherent, Derik, but come on now. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 23:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

== Bad Luck ==

In Transformers Cybertron Sideways had alot of bad luck. IG he fell into alot of traps.

Yes, yes he did. THAT made me laugh like I was 10. Which I'm not. Oh, and sign your posts, for the love of [[Primus]]. [[User:BUMBLEBEE|The 'Bee :)]] 19:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

== RiD Art? ==

I wince a little to even ask but... does any art of his RiD incarnation exist? --Some jerk who didn't sign his name!
: Nope! RID stuff didn't have packaging art, just retouched toy photography. So since that version never got any fiction, d'oh well. Which is just as well, since the Armada guy probably belongs up there anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:01, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== RM Section ==

The Robotmasters section has this note;
{{note|In this continuity family, the character is known as "Doubleface," which is one of his Japanese names. Since Robot Masters is a Japanese franchise with no English-language equivalent, we do not use the English name "Sideways" in this section.}}
...huh? We're not using English names for characters that ''have them'' because the fiction was published in Japan? That seems not-right. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:I added that note to account for the way the section was already written, under the assumption that it was written correctly. I have no strong feelings on the matter. '''Edit:''' Okay, I've got some feelings now! I'm thinking you're right, Derik, on the logic that if we use "Doubleface" for the RM section, then we would also need to use "Convoy," "Beast Convoy," etc. I think the reason the section was written the way it was is that the author was preserving a veneer of ambiguity over the character, noting that he only CALLED himself by this particular name, for whatever value you choose to give that. But at this point is there any reason to cast that doubt? I don't know RM well enough to say for sure, but the discussion above and what I've gathered about the nature of RM suggest to me that there's no good reason to treat him differently than all of the other old-characters-in-new-bodies that are RM's stock in trade. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:28, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:: I wrote the section using "Doubleface" because that fiction has no English-language equivalent. I'm not super-attached to using his Japanese name there. I just thought it might be appropriate. Part of the reason is that we call his toy "Doubleface" in the respective toy section. We don't "translate" that into his English name, so it felt weird doing it for Robot Masters. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The Fiction and Toy sections have different naming rules, though (or so I'd gathered). Each individual toy is labeled as whatever is on its packaging, period. But for fiction, we homogenize as much as possible (hence calling RM Convoy "Optimus Prime"). So.... yeah, I'm going to change that section. Also, while I'm at it - ''Robot Masters'' isn't its own continuity family, is it? The fiction is pretty sparsely documented here, but what I've been able to scrounge up says it's in some G1 universe or other. Characters are just warping like crazy from across time and space to a G1 Earth in the year 2004. So I'm going to change the continuity-family label too. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, RM definitely isn't its own continuity family. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:42, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The name change is especially bothersome to me here because... RM Doubleface is the toy that explicitly established that all the Doublefaces were the same character. "This guy first appeared in RiD."
:::While on the subject... I thought that Cybertron Sideways was actually an AU version of Armada sideways or something... isn't Planet X actually from a parallel universe? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:46, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::No, Ask Vector Prime makes it clear he is the same guy. He just happens to be from a parallel dimension, originally. Or... well, wait. Did the Planet X attack happen before or after Gigantian got moved to that parallel dimension? Eh. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:48, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Oh, that makes sense, I guess. Assuming he was in the RiD universe "before" armada (and he'd have to be, his fiction is a straight line afterward) there's really no reason the Armadaverse has to be his "home" universe.
:::::...I feel like this might benefit from an "Origins" section explaining that unlike other characters, this fiction section is all the same iteration of the same guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'm working one up right now, though I'm putting it in "Notes". You can do as you wish with it when I'm done. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That's good to-- possibly a better way of presenting it too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

==TV Magazine?==
There was a Robotmasters story featured in TV Magazine as well? Anyone have scans? [[User:Lightsyderthe2nd|Lightsyderthe2nd]] 10:05, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

==(RID)?==

Why isn't it Sideways (Armada)? Because he's more prominent in the Unicron Trilogy, and if I recall RID Sideways was a toy only guy. [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 15:01, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
:Because the RID Sideways toy was later confirmed to be the same character as Armada Sideways. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:31, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::Gearshift isn't contesting that point. He knows they're the same guy; he wants to know why we're not using the most intuitively ''prominent'' identifier. The answer - and I know we had a discussion about this article's title somewhere; I think it got lost in the crash - is that we decide what to use for a disambiguation-parenthetical by starting with [[:Help:Disambiguation#Disambiguation suffixes|one simple rule]]: the first franchise the character appeared in. Sideways appeared in RID first, and there are no other RID Sidewayses. So that's that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Just to be clear, if e-hobby were to retroactively decide that one of the seekers from MtMtE was, in fact, the same guy, Sideways, we'd rename him Sideways (G1), right? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:55, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::No, because he was RID and Armada and Cybertron before he was G1. Actually, he already DOES exist in the G1 timeline, thanks to Robot Masters. This is an area we go real-world by, not in-fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:23, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::But I thought the confirmation that RID Sideways was the same as Armada Sideways came after Armada ended. So, how would that be any different? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:32, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::His RiD bio was written to mesh with the upcoming Armada character... he was ''always'' intended to be the same guy. We just didn't get it ''explicitly'' stated until Robotmasters.
::::::And I'm not sure Siph is right here. If we were to get ''a'' Seeker named Sideways who ''was'' this same guy and showed up in G1 in new fiction, then he'd still be Sideways (RiD). But if the black seeker in MtMtE (you only see his shoulder and head, he's hiding like Waldo!) was to to be ''revealed'' to be this same Sideways, then I think he'd move to "Sideways (G1)" because the G1 cartoon would be his earliest chronological appearance.
::::::@Gearshift... IIRC, in early 2008 we constructed a fully-thought-out justification why it would be consistent with our notability guidelines (we have them, they just '''very rarely''' come into play) why it would make sense to keep Sideways at "Sideways (Armada)" if we ever got a second character with his name.
::::::And then then [[Sideways (ROTF)]] was announced, the article just got moved to "Sideways (RID)" with very little discussion, and almost no objection. (I'm not quite sure why, but I speculate that Animated's flogging of just-like-G1-but-not characters combined with the increasing number of continuity-jumping characters just eroded a lot of the resistance people had to using the 'proper' disambig.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:42, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Actually, even if a black G1 Seeker was revealed to be the same guy, he still would be Sideways RID, since we established that toy releases take precedence in terms of first franchise. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:50, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I'm blanking, could you cite me an example? (Wing Dagger type situations don't count.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:52, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::[[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based]] --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:59, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::OK, but what if there was G1 fiction that repurposed an existing G1 toy, say Doubleclouder, as the same old lovable Sideways? Then would we move him to Sideways (G1) since the first toy of him was in the G1 line? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:49, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::''My'' understanding would be no, since he was never officially released as that toy, and the toys still take precedence. The fiction only counts if there's no official toy to work from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:09, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::: Fair. But if some new fiction retroactively made, say Beast Wars Megatron the same character as Go-Bots Megatron, then we'd move Megatron (BW) to Megatron (G2) since that that would be an exactly analogous situation to Sideways. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:39, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Probably the article would be at "Doubleclouder" with the "Sideways (RID)" stuff moved there. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:43, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't think Jeysie was suggesting that he ''was'' Doubleclouder... rather than the DC toy was repurposed-within-the-same-continuity-family to represent two separate characters, like the G2 Cyberjets Air Raid and Aero Raid.
:::::::::::If a Japanese guidebook revealed no-appearances G2 Go-bot "Double Clutch (G2)" to be [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4a__-u6czw#t=4m20s Sandstorm's unnamed friend from Fight or Flee], we'd move it to "Double Clutch (G1)" with no real debate-- the character was around by that name in G1. It's that simple, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:00, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::''"Beginning. Middle. End. Facts. Details. Condense. Plot. Tell it."'' ~'''Agent Simmons''' Yay or nay to the idea of a move? [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 06:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Nay, he was an RID toy first. For the rationale, read the page I linked to. (Basically, I made the same sort of argument you did in your edit summary, and we hashed it out and realized that just doesn't work logistically after all.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:10, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

See, I don't get that at all, Jeysie. With Sideways, we've got basically two different characters with the same name in two different franchises. A third franchise comes along and declares them to be the same character, so we decide to disambig by the earliest chronological toy. (Authorial intent on those original tech specs is dubious, since many times name reuse comes with similar phraseology across franchises with no intent that the toy represents the same character.) If we think that this is enough to move the disambiguation to the first toy, then that should be the rule for all characters retroactively declared to be the same guy. If BW Megatron is declared cannonically to have been the same dude as Go-Bots Megatron from the earlier G2 franchise, then we should move him to Megatron (G2).

A corollary to this is that, since we disambig by the TOY of first franchise for characters who are retroactively the same across timelines, if we need to disambig Unicron for whatever reason he'll be Unicron (Armada). (OH, I'm so tempted to actually stick in a non-Unicron character named Unicron into one of my books just to see that argument.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:20, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:Personally, I don't like that Robot Masters can retcon the Armada continuity. I think that ''in the Robot Masters continuity'', RID Sideways = Armada Sideways, but ''in the Armada continuity,'' RID Sideways ≠ Armada Sideways. Saying RID Axer came from G1 is different, because it isn't really retconning any G1 fiction except to say that once all the G1 fiction was over with, he hopped into the RID universe. Having said that, I think RID is a little bit of an exception. The toyline was sort of used as a catch-all "Universe"-type concept with a loose regard to continuity. It has "Air Attack Optimus Primal" for example. He is taken as the Optimus Primal from the Beast Machines era. If he is the Optimus Primal his bio draws RID into the Beast Wars's history.
:As for your Megatron example, Go-Bots Megatron is G1 Megatron. The bio says Megatron took this new car altmode so Megatron (BW) would move to Megatron (G1). Your Unicron example shows why the toy should not necessarily take precedence. It should be the first real-world appearance, be it toy or fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:48, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::Thing is... they're not really all that different as characters. The RID and Armada bios are if not 1:1 exact, they're so damn close they might as well be. This was a source of confusion as soon as Sideways's Armada bio was revealed, and it's possible that the production scheduling meant Armada Sideways was developed first despite being released second. And we were still kind of not used to the whole "multiverse" thing yet. At any rate, I frankly advise against trying to nail down a standard for bizarre hypotheticals. Ours is a fucked-up franchise, and trying to predict how to handle the next strange once-in-a-lifetime mutation is really an exercise in futility. A lot of what we do really does have to fall under a case-by-case with the hope that general guidelines will suffice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Hey, that's the answer I wanted all along - let's go case-by-case and let common sense prevail. That being the case, wouldn't the 'common sense' answer be to move Sideways back to Armada, which is where the bulk of his characterization comes from and where most fans know him from? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:23, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::I think any fan who really knows about Sideways in Armada must by definition be hardcore enough to have known he was the RID character already. I mean, he's a second-stringer from a cartoon most people hated from 7 years ago. With that in mind, I think the risk of actually confusing anybody is very, very slight. Besides, part of Sideways' characterization prominently featured in our article is that "self-sufficient ninja" shtick, which really was introduced in RID, and there is simply no way to NOT have the article introduction mention his RID incarnation. So once we've acknowledged it, what's wrong with keeping it in his name? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 13:42, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:This whole "toys first" thing is total nonsense. It stems from the discussion Jeysie linked to (thanks for saving it! Do you have the other pieces too? We need those back here...), where Siph was (over)reacting to Jeysie's claim that the toys didn't really matter at ''all.'' In the end, what actually matters is FRANCHISE, which applies to BOTH TOYS AND FICTION. Jim, your example is a perfect case: If we ever needed to disambiguate [[Unicron]], making him "Unicron (Armada)" because that was the franchise that first sold him as a toy is ridiculous. He was created as a character in the 1986 movie, which was released under the G1 franchise. THAT'S his franchise of origin.
:Your questioning of the (RID) on this article is also very keen: What does "origin" mean when you involve cross-franchise retconning? I don't have a clear answer, though I'm on the side of (RID) because the retcon was such a very short leap, due to the nontrivially-similar bios and the association the RID character had with [[Axer|another dimension-hopper]] from the get-go. This is admittedly a judgement call, and the hypothetical example of retconning a G1 character who has no inherent connection (the "black Seeker") into this Sideways would be a much more challenging case. Good thing we don't have to deal with it yet!
:Though I'm not as dismissive of "bizarre hypotheticals" as Siph is. The idea of putting a parenthetical on this article was at one point a hypothetical that we had a valuable discussion around. I think Derik is misremembering the outcome of that; I recall it ending with more support for (RID), which I thought was why the actual move was so uncontroversial.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::There's the [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Insecticon Swarm]] talk page and the [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|main notes]], if that's what you mean by "other parts".
::And, what do you mean "toys first thing is total nonsense"? I distinctly remember that I came down on the side of determining franchise of origin by the fiction, everyone yelled at me, we had the whole discussion, and determined that remaining with determining franchise of origin via the toys was the best way to handle it.
::If people suddenly start changing to the reverse and taking up my initial argument of determining franchise by the fiction, I swear I'm gonna kick y'all out of irritation until you make up your freakin' minds. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:40, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::As I said in that discussion, the toys-vs.-fiction thing is a false dichotomy. Take the toys entirely out of the equation, and there are still franchises. Every piece of TF fiction - be it comic, TV show, book, whatever - is released with some kind of franchise-identifier (usually the logo on the cover or in the intro sequence). It doesn't matter HOW a character appears first, whether it's a toy or a drawing on a page or a 3D rendering onscreen; what matters is what franchise that appearance is under.
:::'''Edit:''' Oh, and yeah, those are exactly the "other pieces" I mean. Those totally need to be reincorporated into the wiki; in total, they're pretty much the Debate To End All Debates on this topic.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:51, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Apparently they're not, seeing as how after all that, there's people here arguing the same stance I initially got griped at for. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:58, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Which is exactly why we need to have those discussions back on here, so we can point people to them and go, "There. THAT'S why." - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:27, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::I have nothing to add to this other than I've always considered Sideways to be an Armada character, and I think, despite what Thy says, one of the stand out characters of the series. I recall people going "HOLY CRAP NO WAY!" back when forums used to have play-by-play threads for Armada and we watched [[Detection]]. Basically, if TF fans hear the name Sideways, they think "the purple motorcycle guy from Transformers Armada". --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:54, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::I just want to point out for clarification... Robotmasters didn't ''retcon'' Rid Sideways into being Armada Sideways... RM ''confirmed'' it, having been hinted at before (and there being discussion to that effect on att.)
::Sideways was part of a 2-pack... the other guy was Axer, whose bio showed that he was G1 Axer and he'd been accidentally transported into the RiD-verse. Obviously Sideways was their joke... making him an ''upcoming'' character, so the two pack was ''both'' guys from other universes, one old, one new.
::(Left we forget, in 2002 when they were released, a lot of the fandom was operating on the idea that Transformers was a 'mythology', where everything was part of one big loose universe that kinda-sorta fit with everything else, just not all at once. Axer being transported from one reality to another was the first example of the Transofrmers Multiverse EVER, a concept that was being developed for Armada.)
::I also don't think we disambigh characters by toylines... we disambig the, by franchise. It's just that toyline have an ''almost'' 1:1 relatioship with franchises. (which in turn have a .9:1 relationship with the continuity family) that screws people up.
::If we used the ''toyline'', we'd have "Blurr (Universe)" or "Blurr (Universe 2008)" instead of "Blurr (Shattered Glass)". -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:21, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Er, I had been under the impression that Shattered Glass was its own separate toy franchise, insofar that the BotCon toys were released under that label.
:::But in any case, I'm more than just a little frustrated that we spent all that time determining that we ''do'' in fact disambiguate characters by toy franchise—including my getting ''insulted'' by various people for even contemplating disambiguating by fiction—and now folks are taking the opposite standpoint. WTF. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'm getting frustrated that you keep misrepresenting the current rule as being "toy-based." It's NOT. It's whatever came first, whether it's toy OR fiction. Yes, some people argued against you in a toy-based way, but I don't think they represent the sum total of all arguments against your point of view. For a while, you were attempting to do away with the franchise-of-origin rule entirely, in favor of whatever term (franchise, continuity family, series, etc.) was most representative of the scope of each particular character's appearances. And THAT'S the kind of thing that I saw most people balking at, since it invited debate on almost every disambiguated page we have. "One simple rule" was what the real dogpiling was all about, and the toys-vs.-fiction thing was totally secondary to that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::'''Yes''', it is. The entire '''point''' of the discussion was disambiguating by toys vs. disambiguating by fiction. And we specifically agreed at one point as part of the examples that toy appearances take precedence! It's all ''there'' in the discussions.
:::::But whatever. I just find it ironically irritating that I had a standpoint, everyone told me it was wrong, I was convinced it was wrong (by '''you''', I might add) and changed to agreeing with everyone else... and now I'm wrong again because people are doing a 180 from the standpoint they reached last time.
:::::Whatever, it's pretty obvious I can't win. I'm just going to bow out before I have to deal with being insulted again even though I'm trying to advocate the same freakin' conclusion we reached the last time this came up. Wish people could make up their damn minds on things and stick to it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::SG Blurr was released in the ''Timeines'' toyline. And the SG guys that didn't have to be disambiguated were at "(Timelines)" till people complained about having to remember which characters get "(Shattered Glass)" and which don't. (Why are we using "Shattered Glass", anyway? Wouldn't it be more consistent for us to use "SG"?) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::: I gotta agree with Interrobang, SG seems like a more sensible disambiguation than the entire phrase.
::::: Jeysie, rereading the link you posted, I don't really see a clear consensus for any position. Maybe I'm just not reading closely enough. Certainly, franchise of origin (be it toy or fiction or something else) seems like the most sensible choice to me, if only to avoid the Unicron (Armada) example above.
::::: Derik, I think it's inaccurate of you to state, unambiguously, that Axer and Sideways were intended to both be dimension hopping characters from the get-go. A mention of a black hole does not automatically mean a continuity-hopping character. It's a fun inference to draw, but until Robot Masters confirmed it all we had was fanon. (I'll point out that many bios echo elements of earlier incarnations of characters from other continuities. The earliest bios for Optimus Primal and BW Megatron seem to imply that they were the same characters as G1 Prime & Megatron, maybe we should combine those articles. Oh, and Optimus Prime in G1 was seen entering a black hole to find Nucleon ... maybe Armada Optimus Prime is the same guy? Heck, wasn't RID Megatron specifically from a dimensional rift? Let's fanon out who HE was supposed to be! )
::::: Finally, I'm with FFN, Sideways was a stand-out character from Armada. I think it's pretty easy to be a fan of his without knowing that there was a toy-only character of his with a similar bio that was later retconned into the same guy by a Japanese franchise. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::I was thinking the other day that (SG) would have made more sense. Not sure it's worth having to move 100+ articles at this point, though.
::::::And, I was pretty much the only one who thought that using the fiction as a basis for origin was a good idea... everyone else (who took the time to comment, anyway... if there's people who agreed with me, they couldn't be fussed to actually say anything at the time) was ''quite'' clear on stating they thought I was nuts. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:53, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::May as well do it now, before it becomes 200. Besides, there will surely be some SG Animated or RID or UT at some point, so we'll probably be changing them all anyway. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If we are going to move them, we'd be best off having Derik's bot do it, I think, if it can be tweaked for that purpose. Especially since we'd need to tag all of the moved talk page redirects to be deleted, and change all links, and... *groan*
::::::::But I'm honestly not sure we'd ever need to do it. There won't be an SG UT, per se, because there's already UT characters in the existing SGverse, and I can't see there ever being an official SG Animated or Movie. (I got the feeling that once the existing SG storyline plays out, that'll pretty much be it, seeing as how it'd be a couple years old at that point, at least.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:39, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::::Jim, to your comment that there was no "clear consensus for any opinion"... Skimming over the links, it looks like we're still missing the heart of the discussion. The debate started at [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Swarm (G1)]], migrated to [[Help talk:Disambiguation]], and ended with [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Jeysie's Sandbox]] (and accompanying [[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Talk page]]). As you can see, we're still missing Talk:Disambiguation, which is where the debate truly became epic. Believe it or not, Talk:Swarm (G1) was only the warmup. And by the time the Sandbox was made, most of the participants had petered out. In the meantime, I distinctly remember a violent pileup in the middle, where it seemed like every damn editor had jumped in. I recall a certain viewpoint being supreme, but obviously Jeysie recalls differently. Please tell me there's a cached version somewhere out there.....? It would be a damn shame for all that butt-hurt to vanish into the ether, dooming us to repeat it again someday. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:13, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::...I don't remember there ever being any discussion on "Help:Disambiguation". The "big epic discussion" took place on Swarm and my Sandbox talk as far as I know. At least, those were the only parts of the discussion ''I'' personally took part in. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On your copy of Talk:Insecticon swarm, there's a note right above the "Merge to Insecticon (G1)" section that says, "Due to the size and scope of this debate, it is recommended further discussion be taken to Help talk:Disambiguation." I swear to you on the grave of my mother's camel and my uncle's goat and even my sister's donkeys that the discussion WAS taken there, and you were involved in it, and that's where it truly got hairy. That was where I suggested the idea of doing a sandbox in the first place. (Note that the idea had not been mentioned in the Swarm-page discussion.) It was basically more of the same, but by the end there were people totally coming out of the woodwork to defend the status quo. Hooper called us all retards... is any of this ringing a bell? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:26, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, I remember the being insulted and everyone disagreeing with me part, but I had thought that took place on one of those two pages. I remember making the Sandbox because of the Swarm discussion, not there being an interim thing. In any case, the only cache for any Disambiguation discussion page is "Transformers Wiki talk:Disambiguation" with Steve-O saying it should be deleted since we already had "Help:Disambiguation", so, yeah. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:42, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::: Leaving hurt feelings and bruised egos aside, having an argument once doesn't invalidate the need to revisit those conclusions from time to time, as the franchise (and our understanding of it) evolves. I think that disambiguating by the franchise of origin, be it from a toy or from the fiction, is a generally sound policy. Is that agreed? (The corner cases are those instances where retcons 'move up' the francise of origin, but I think understanding the general case first is a good move.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In this case, this is '''at least''' our fourth or fifth go-round on this subject.
:::::::::::That's good though, because the the situation keeps changing. Back when we were first having it, disambigs were fairly clear-cut. You have (G1), (BW) etc. There was very little name duplication withint he G1 franchise. But that's changing. We're getting a lot more toys issues within G1, so now it's not un-common to see G1 guys disambig'd (Universe) or (Timelines). (Both disambigs I loathe, BTW, because Univerrse and Timelines both have toys ftrom non-G1 continuity families.) As the problem gets more complicated, we need to revisit our assumptions from time to time.
:::::::::::My only input into thisdiscussion... I'm against (SG) for Shattered Glass guys. As there is a not-insignificant chance we'll eventually get a Shattered Glsass Movieverse (or something... Wyatt said he wished he'd gotten to do a SG Animated ep...) I think we are ''far'' mroe likely to end up moving these articles to "(Shattered G1)." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:51, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::"(Shattered Glass)" does not make the articles immune from that problem, and we shouldn't be doing policies on "Maybe!" ("(SG G1)". Or "(Primax-)" if we're feeling hilariously dorky.)[[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:20, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::: I disagree. Maybe is a great reason to make changes. Forward looking changes make our lives easier. I think SG G1 would be a much better disambig than Shattered Glass. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:27, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: The weird thing about (SG G1) is... on the one hand, technically it is, since it's in Primax. On the other hand, we've got the likes of Will, Rick, Demolisher, and Dropshot in there. On the gripping hand, it's not like SG doesn't defy every other attempt to apply standard rules to it without there being utter weirdness (I'm reminded of the line on Continuity Family: "It is entirely possible for a universe to be exactly 50% 'Robots in Disguise' and 50% 'Armada', defying categorization.").
:::::::::::::: I'd still almost want to just leave it at (SG) and just have (SG Movie) or (SG Animated) if it comes up. (Although I admit I don't think it will... it seems like by the time the current SG storyline finishes, FunPub would be moving on to something else. Much to my complete sadness, admittedly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:26, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Yeah, it's nice to have a backup plan, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now, all we need is a single parenthetical for "Shattered Glass", period. The only reason I see for spelling it out is the assumption that most people wouldn't know what "SG" stands for... but when has that [[Ultra Magnus (Universe Two-Pack)|stopped]] [[Sandstorm (OC)|us]] [[Bombshock (ROC)|before]]? I vote for "(SG)". - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:12, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I vote for (SG) as well, but we should really move this to [[Shattered Glass (franchise)]], I think. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:19, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF Sideways is not UT Sideways ==

As Sorenson on the Allspark Forums pretty clearly stated, (http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=70553&view=findpost&p=1575577) Almanac is full of in-Jokes and easter eggs. There is no reason at all to maintain that Animated Sideways vacation spot marks him as the ROTF Character of the same name. The intent certainly was not to combine the two character, but rather as a joke/easter egg giving a wink toward Hasbro's name reuses. And even if it was, the stretch is highly tenuous, and would fall under the TFWiki's own definitions of Authorial Intent (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Authorial_intent) and Pseudocannon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pseudocanon). - Master Fwiffo
:I'd just like to point out that saying RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways based on the single mention of a word is akin to saying the motorcycle Wreck-Gar threw at Bumblebee was actually the corpse of G1 Wreck-Gar who happened to dimension-hop there. Or that Spike and Carly and Daniel dimension-hopped from G1 and decided to live in Animated instead. Or that WASP from Shattered Glass is actually a dimension-hopping AniBee who was killed and whose corpse was converted into a salesbot. In other words, I'm saying a simple fanwank does not a large continuity reshuffle make. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:03, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
Yes, combining ROTF Sideways with UT/RID Sideways after an in-joke in the Almanac is not really a good move. I mean, we didn't merge Optimus Prime (RID) with Optimus Prime (G1) when some Takara guy says that they're the same continuity, did we? I mean, merging every single Fallen and Unicron and Primus is already confusing to people not familiar with the multiversal singularity thing, there's nothing to say that Sideways the dimension hopper is the same Sideways that got bisected in ROTF. And that is even if Sideways hopped from Animated to ROTF. It's an small in-joke, is all. [[Special:Contributions/110.138.16.169|110.138.16.169]] 09:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:In Japanase fiction, "Fire Convoy" is indeed in the same continuity as "Convoy". But they are different characters. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::I really wish you people would stop retardedly using "CR is in G1" as an argument against this. [[:Category:Car Robots characters|We recognize and embrace it.]] Find another dead horse to beat. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:43, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==Sideways is a special case. Little bus special.==
I don't go by author-intentism, though I am curious to see the reaction of those who do to Sorenson's "in-jokes and Easter Eggs" comment. Speaking only for myself, if it turns out Hasbro did not know Cybertronix was a real language instead of page deco then I am uncomfortable with any and all of the assertions that, under that circumstance, would have been snuck past their attention to be canonized by their stamp without review.

On the evidence itself, just about everybody agrees that Animated Sideways is clearly "the" Sideways. It is paradoxical to claim that a dimension jumper would be unique and constrained within the Animated dimension, therefore he has to be "somebody else," in this case the original Sideways.

Since he has the ROTF body and is said to have the power to dimension-jump and is said to be going to Shanghai, one could make an after-the-fact, God-of-the-gaps, not explicitly conveyed in fiction argument that he's ROTF Sideways too.

And if this were '''ANY OTHER CHARACTER''', nobody would be willing to make the leap, the evidence would be judged to be not strong enough, and there would be two pages here.

But basically everything Sideways has ever done has been explained onto the fiction by the after-the-fact handwaving of secondary authors. He never actually DOES these remarkable and unique things attributed to him, just the next guy in line every 2 years or so writes him up as having done it while we were asleep. It's his shtick. We've already made that leap of faith like 3 times. It would be completely arbitrary for us to try to draw a line in the sand here and say "no further."

So while I don't like it, I can go along with it. Numerous editors--particularly those that post on Allspark--have also shown degrees of discomfort with the idea. If they've got real problems with it, I suggest that THEY suggest it be put up for a vote.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly: ''If this article is going to be merged, it will need much more explanatory "note" text throughout and a much shorter and less specific opening, more along the lines of [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] and [[Prowl II]].'' People are going to read the article from start to finish, and so we will literally have to walk them through the arguments for unity. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

: (I hope I'm doing this right) The thing is, ROTF Sideways *has* a personality - not in the movies, but through the toy bios and video games and heck, even those UK comics. And those pretty clearly show that these two aren't the same character. All the other Sideway's have faction swapping and some other sort of extra-dimensional powers attributed to them. ROTF Sideways was an average Decepticon. You can't make that leap then, because they are two different characters with literally no relationship whatsoever. If ROTF Sideways was a faction swapping - or even somewhat mysterious or something, I might could buy it. But he's not. He's Joe Average Decepticon. - Master Fwiffo

::'''''Sideways''' is the consummate con-artist. He is misleading and deceitful in everything he does, portraying himself as the ninja-like warrior or the aloof drifter, and he lives for the look of shock and betrayal on his victims' faces when they realize he's played them for fools.'' That's an excerpt from the very article. He could easily be playing it up in order to trick the people of this new universe. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

::: Yes, that's Armada Sideways bio. ROTF Sideways bio says he's a courier, that he's cowardly, that he's BFF with Demolishor, and gives no indication across any of his bios that he has super mystical unicronian powers. He *could* be lying. He *could* have lost his powers in a diminsion jump. He *could* have decided to go to Hawaii before Shanghai, donned a hula skirt while drunk, and gambled away his powers in a fit of drunken revelry. We have nothing whatsoever to prove this is the case. Not a damn thing. ALl we have is an in-joke in a book full of in-jokes that even if taken as fact IN NO WAY PROVES ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANIMATED SIDEWAYS THINKS SHANGHAI IS A NEAT PLACE TO VISIT.

:::In short, split these articles. - Master Fwiffo

::::No. You have a voice here, same as anyone, but you don't have the authority you seem to think you have. Make your argument, but don't tell people what to do.
::::For my part, I think it's perfectly reasonable to merge these. It's always been coming, and we now have fiction explicitly bridging the two. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

Obviously I put in a "No" vote. Not only is the Almanac not officially branded as Movie fiction, not only does it contradict stuff that ''was'' officially branded as Movie fiction, not only is there no proof that Hasbro approved the Almanac as anything but but a guide to Animated specifically and/or expected the non-Animated info to be taken seriously, but Sorenson even friggin' outright stated that the damn thing was only meant as a joke, and seeing as how his authorial intent was the only remote evidence for this applying to begin with... 
Yeah, let's stop this insanity. The wiki is not a place for the editors' pet fanon theories, it's a place for canon according to the people actually writing the storylines for each branded bit of fiction. The mention in the Almanac is worthy of a footnote at best, since it's at best authorial intent from someone with no connection to the actual branded Movie fiction anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:This article needs to be split in two again. There's zero canon evidence for a merger in this case. The one canon statement this is vaguely based on only states that Animated Sideways would like to go to Shanghai at some point. We don't know what universe the Shanghai he wants to go to is in, let alone whether or not he ever got there. The only evidence he did go to the one in the Movie universe is the intent of one of the authors. Looking at the page for authorial intent we get:
::''[[Authorial intent]]: Facts about the fiction that are stated/intended by the authors but never established in official fiction are often referred to as pseudocanon.''
:Subsequently, looking at pseudocanon we find:
::''[[Pseudocanon]]: Pseudocanon usually fits in well with the actual canon (at least until a later writer invalidates it), as it is the writers' idea of "what is really going on" as they craft their stories. However, because it is not established in any official fiction, it can't be taken as a given or definitely "true".''
:So according to this very Wiki, AUTHORIAL INTENT IS NOT CANON. And since authorial intent was the only reason the pages were merged in the first place, that means the pages were merged without basis. The prosecution rests. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:17, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==D8==

Regarding the fact he was ALREADY sliced in half if the RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways.....does that mean he'll *gulp* come back?

[[User:Sideways 343|Sideways 343]] 03:42, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== This Revamp... ==

Just wanted to say I like the more genaric opening and the expanded explanitary notes on his weird situation added in this revamp. I might suggest a specific section, like Unicron has, directly following the bio to really address, directly and out of universe, all the retcons and hazy links that connect all the versions and how this came to be one page. As long as we're up front about the way the conglomorate character was built, where bits came from and how hazy the connections really are then there's absolutely no problem with keeping the merged. Our job is to get across the info on the character to the reader. Do that clearly and that's all that matters. IMO. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:37, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:Plausability does not make it canon. If you guys won't put in Megatron's Spark being put back into him or Dead Mens Boots as canon, there is no reason whatsoever to for two characters that don't fit together. Leave that last paragraph with animated Sideways - and from there, link to the ROTF Sideways profile on it's own separate page. Again, this bridge is made of straw. -Master Fwiffo
::Can you please stop [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Dead_Men%27s_Boots imagining up] [[Megatron_(G1)#Beast_Wars|things the Wiki]] does not do? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:51, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:: I thought "plausibility does not make it canon" was our argument, not yours. (And I think I'd find your contribution on this one Hot Button Topic to be more palatable if you'd contributed here anywhere else ever. You don't even have a Userpage! You're only here to troll this one subject! It's kinda meatpuppety.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:50, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::: Walky, I don't edit the Wiki, because I know it'd destroy all my free time if I did, and I'm already overloaded on other TF projects over at the Allspark. I'm really thankful for the work you guys do. No, really. I am. I read the article a lot (far more, I'd wager, then the average TF fan). But I really feel I have to take a stand on this because I like *both* versions of Sideways too much to let them be the same character, especially on such a tenuous, shaky bridge. Doing this only cheapens both - because either UT Sideways got the hell gimped out of him when he hit Tyrax, or ROTF Sideways is actually just a mindless fabrication of someone whos actually superpowerful (except he did nothing but die on screen). I mean seriously, look at those two options. That's bad fanfic writing right there. It makes the entire concept of Drift look brilliant by comparison. THe only reason I even brought it up here is because people insisted that this argument should be involved more on the wiki - so I'm presenting it here. I really do feel strongly about this, and trying to connect such shaky dots and claim it cannon really offends my sensabilities. I make fanon assumptions and connections all the freaking time. I enjoy doing it. But I sure as heck don't post them on the wiki. -Master Fwiffo
:::So wait. The opinion of people who spend time on the wiki, but don't necessarily edit it is completely irrelevant? Especially on something that'll throw off the casual visitor like this?? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 15:26, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::I'm saying that if Fwiffo wants to make a very major contribution IN GOOD FAITH, he could at least register his name. It's pretty simple! It makes it feel like he has an actual stake here, rather than making a hit-and-run contribution. (You curse out entirely too many anonymous/new editors for me to take your criticism here seriously.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::To be fair Interro, Dead Men's Boots is being put on here as pseudocanon and is the reason the apocrypha template is being created. You and Fwiffo are both half right and half wrong. And Walky, the plausibility argument goes both ways on this one. It's no more plausible that the two Sideways are one and the same, based on the statement of wanting to visit Shanghai, than it is plausible that they're not the same. Between that and a visual similarity that's just as likely to be merely an homage as not, I'm not actually sure we can prove either case. Which I would think means we have to assume the initial relationship between the characters (i.e. none) until proven otherwise. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 15:48, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::While I grudgingly believe the threshold of Sideways' normal after-the-fact handwaving history has been reached, clearly a lot of other people do not. I really don't want to see this turn into an ATTCM moment. It isn't worth it for two sentences in a Drink-Your-Ovaltine secret code. I think a fair course of action would be to give people some more time to register their thoughts on what a merged-and-annotated draft looks like, but if it's still pretty much 50/50 (or worse) and the aggravation hasn't stopped, I'd be in favor of splitting Movieways out--with notation blurbs at the beginning of his article and the end of "main" Sideways' Animated section describing the issue and how they very well might be the same character. We could convey the exact same content that way, while still leaving it to readers to determine whether the Shanghai to which A-SW traveled was in Animated or in Movie. I think it would be highly inappropriate to just ''cut out the same-character suggestion for Movie-ways entirely''. On one page or two, it has to be there. Because dammit, the situation IS different when it is long established that a character can Quantum Leap. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 16:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::I am in complete agreement with Thy on this one. BOTH DAMN SIDES are being really bulletheaded here, when there's a medium to be reached... the one he proposes. Let's look at our goddamn options to present the FACTS, whether we ''like'' ROTF Sideways being retconned into being the same one as the other one, just like ''every other weirdass issue we've had to deal with, from IDW's continuity to what the deal with Prime/WfC was continuity-wise'', and reach a consensus. I think we've more than hit Sideways-is-one saturation, even if there's room for debate... but then again, we hit that in ''so many other'' instances without this level of shit-slinging. 
:::::Because I swear, the level of pissy butthurt going on here is really, really embarrassing to witness. My god, people. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:07, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I will throw my support behind this if it gets people to ''stop''. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thy has my complete support, if only because his solution will finally end this continuity shitstorm. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 16:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I'm in favor of whatever results in a split page with a footnote and no more freakin' fanwank. (I'm not so much butthurt as I am crabby at how embarrassingly stupid all this fanwank has been.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Don't really have an opinion on it, but it seems that it should at least be mentioned. The pages can be merged if/when it becomes more clear. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:46, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't really care about whether it's one page that mentions that they may or may not be the same, or two pages with notes saying "He may be the same guy as RID/ROTF Sideways." I don't really pay attention to all this complicated continuity stuff, so it'd be the same to me, as long as it conveys the same information. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:52, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::In case I hadn't made it clear before (I thought I had, but I guess not). I am *perfectly fine* with notes and blurbs on both pages saying they *might* be the same character by what the Almanac says. That was never an issue for me - the issue is the forced combination of the two when no solid bridge exist. Shoving them together only makes things confusing. - Master Fwiffo
::::::::::::I say we go with the common legal rule of "beyond a reasonable doubt." If evidence is shown that proves that Movie Sideways is UT Sideways beyond a reasonable doubt, then merge the shit out of them. The problem is that right now all we know is that UT Sideways wanted to go to Shanghai, right? There's, what, four Shanghais he can go to without going to the Movie universe? Until we see more evidence that he actually IS Movie Sideways, all we can say is that he went to A Shanghai. He might have even gotten the idea from seeing his counterpart from another universe get cut in half there. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:41, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I'd be perfectly happy with Thylacine's approach. And I very much agree with the "reasonable doubt" idea. That's what I was getting at with my edit just above Thy's suggestion. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: Thy's approach sounds like a great idea. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I think Thy has the right idea. The relationship between all the previous Sidewayses is certainly not rock-solid. I think everyone can agree on that point. The only two Sidewayses that are explicitely the same guy are the motorcycles from Robots in Disguise and Robot Masters. Anything else is connecting dots. It makes sense, and is probably worth a trivia note, but it's not definite. But here's the crux. No one really seemed to mind when those dots were connected previously. Robots in Disguise Sideways and Robot Masters Sideways are footnotes. They're essentially nobodies, notable only for probably being the same guy as UT Sideways. Animated Sideways, too, exists pretty much solely to create links. However, now movie Sideways is being brought into the fold on evidence no more rock solid than the link between RiD/RM and UT Sideways. The problem is, movie Sideways has a substantial amount of pre-existing fiction. He's his own character. So while there's just as much evidence (or lack thereof) connecting him to the dimension-hopping Sideways as UT Sideways has, there's a force opposing the connection caused by the fact that his movie persona exists, and that that persona is so different than the other Sidewayses (by which I mean UT Sideways, who's really the only one that's fleshed out). Basically, I tend to look at it like this - if the Movie Sideways article is divorced from the UT Sideways article - and I believe it should be, based on the lack of uncontroversial evidence linking them- then the RiD/RM Sideways must also be split from UT Sideways by the same criteria.[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 18:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::The reasonable doubt approach sounds fine to me. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 19:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== Next Revamp ==

I've taken a stab at recreating ROTF Sideways, with necessary annotations, on my userpage. I don't remember how it originally began so I just whipped up the opening 'graf that you see. Let me know what you think. As for Sideways (RID), I'm envisioning that page's fiction section ending with the Animated notation, and then all the toys / merch / trivia pertaining to ROTF just vanishing. If there's some more elegant way to do this, please forgive me for not doing so--this is my first time trying my hand at something like this. If the original ROTF Sideways page is archived somewhere, I guess I just wasted some time. ;) --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:44, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:The last revision on ROTF Sideways prior to this is here, if it helps: [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Sideways_%28ROTF%29&oldid=473798] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::....yeah, that woulda helped. Can we just re-instate that one, and then add annotations as necessary? And then, I guess, restore the "(RID)" suffix to this page...? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:15, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::This seems like a good compromise, but "the other Sideways" should be changed to "a Sideways", because the former implies that it is indeed the case that the two Sidewayses are different, while the latter seems about as ambiguous as possible.

Could someone please destroy the ROTF redirect to the current page? Can't create a new page if the title is already in the system. Thanks. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 09:43, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:If you click on the "redirected from" it takes you to the redirect page, click on history, click on the last non-redirect page, edit that to restore the previous page. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:08, 7 July 2010 (EDT)

== Multiversal Singularity? ==

Considering how the Allspark Almanac is basically retconning UT Sideways (who is apparently the same as RID Sideways) to be the same as ROTF Sideways as well as Animated Sideways, should we put Sideways in the multiversal singularity category now? --[[User:Cydra|Cydra]] 17:01, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:Nah. Sideways is more of a dimension hopper. Plus, I don't think there's anything saying that he's a multiversal singularity. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 17:04, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::Unicron is supposedly getting his counterpart to the Thirteen, so I wouldn't be surprised if later retcons have Sideways as one of them. But I'm just speculating. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Also, it ''doesn't'' retcon UT Sideways into being ROTF Sideways. We're still not sure on that. (We know he's Animated Sideways, though.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:57, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
::::No, we don't even know ''that''. The source is vague on the issue, ''plus'' the writer of said source says his book is full of easter eggs.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 08:21, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::"Easter eggs" =/= "false" --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::"Ambiguously phrased easter eggs" =/= "definite proof". Y'know, just like [http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/quasar.html Buried Alien] is not definitely Barry Allen.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 10:04, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::well it could be possible that he could of just changed his paint job while traveling between universes.--[[User:Crystallskullguy|Crystallskullguy]] 11:12, 12 July 2010 (EDT)

Talk:Sideways (Armada)

2010-07-12T15:12:20Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Multiversal Singularity? */

==Main image==
Hey, wasn't there a different Sideways profile pic at some point? One that wasn't just his head again, which is really redundant with the headshot of him just a further bit down the page? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: Fixed! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
: I changed it earlier because the original pic there was total crap and tiny. Oddly enough I was going to use the Armada cardart (which has exactly the same pic you used), but I was warned against it for some reason. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

==RID Sideways = Armada Sideways==
I'm gonan throw out this interesting nugget-- RiD Sideways is the same character. Even JAPAN thinks so. Their Robotmasters page lists Sideways 1st appearance as RiD (or was it CR? It's been awhile, and it's moot for the purposes of this Wiki.) The POINT is, Armada is the SECOND toyline Sideways/Doubleface appeared in, not the first.

I noticed this as well. Also, I noticed that [[Axer]]`s page claims that he is the '''ONLY''' character to physically cross over from continuity to continuity. Based on the information from the article this is not likely true. Any objections?--[[User:Autobotx1010|Autobotx1010]] 19:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

:Okay, Sideway's page does indeed already say that R.I.D. sideways is the same person, and ditto with the Robot masters version. Scroll down, it's all there in the toy section. Sideways doesn't appear in the fiction for R.I.D., just the toy line, so only the toy was mentioned.
:Plus, Axer's page says he's the ''first'' character to cross continuity, not "only."
:You're joining an argument that is seventeen months old. It's been resolved for a while. --[[User:Atomic spaceman|Atomic spaceman]] 21:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you assume that RM Sideways is the same character as Armada Sideways (a fair assumption) then it logically follows that RiD Sideways probably is as well. (he's no further removed from the Unicron Trilogy than is the Sideways in Robotmasters version of G1.) The fact that RiD sideway's packaging-partnet was another continuity-hopper lends credibility to this approach-- but the Takara stance that he 1st appeared in the line before Armada is the real clincher for me.

Disagreement? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I had the RiD toy listed on this page in the beginning, but thought instead to just suggest on both pages that they are probably the same guy. Believe me, I agree with you. But if there's enough support, back in here the RiD version goes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

RID Sideways was not a Japanese release. RID has no ties to Armada, either.
It's a name reuse, as the reused bio for RID Sideways was saw in Armada does not even relfect the same character. A ninja? Don't think so. RID Sideways was also an Autobot hero. Totally seperate character. Also want to point out that the character is named Doubleface in Japan, severing the ties to any "Sideways" name use for a toy that is US only.
--Bodycount

Hrm. Well for [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/32a177ffd616f66a reference] here's my post on the subject back in the day exploring the issue- the Takara site said CR BTW, though I don't have a link. (It's probably still up, but I have no idea where Takara's RM site is, so...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Bodycount- read the damn post I linked to.
*Takara says it's the same character, even with all the renaming.
*Though it didn't come through int he cartoon, Armada Sideways WAS suppsoedly a ninja
*Eat me
:-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Takara also recognized Galaxy Force as part of the Micron Trilogy and lists the characters as the same ones from the previous two shows. Do you also accept that idea? Oh, and I would eat you, but I don't think I can fit that much geek into my stomach.

Man, 2005 used to be the FUTURE, now it's already "back in the day." Anyway, I would agree with Derik the RiD Sideways is most likely the same guy. Unicron can dimension jump after all, and have his servants do the same. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, crap, Derik! I totally forgot about Takara listing RiD Sideways as RM Doubleface's first toy. Thanks for reminding me, and that's certainly enough to join the two probably-the-same guys into the same page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

...was this not in the first paragraph on the talk page? Admittedly, the usenet post was SPELLCHECKED, and thus much easier to understand. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I did edit this page last night, mostly at first I corrected the spelling on the RM section, then added a basic outline for RiD Sideways since there was nothing there when I got here, unaware of the connection between UT and RiD Sideways. However, I understand that somehow the RM Doubleface section got attributed to me. I never claimed that Doubleface was a different character, I just fixed some spelling errors, and I, like most fans, didn't know exactly what the connection was between RiD and Armada Sideways. I am not that useless. -- 21:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
:And who are you, anyway? (I only bring it up because your identity is an important part of your statement here.)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 13:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

All this fussin' and fightin' last year when someone could've just looked up Hasbro's online bio for Armada Sideways and seen that it's almost a word-for-word lift from RiD Sideways. Same tech spec numbers, too.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 16:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

:Hasbro was just emerging from their steal-big-chunks-of-bios-from-old-bios phase at the time these were published. While strong evidence-in-favor (and admittedly we did overlook it) I doubt that it would have been considered decisive. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

== Turncoats ==

I think Sideways should retain the turncoat category, his 'actual alliance' being to Unicron nonwithstanding. If I look int he Turncoat category, i expect to see characters who've switched sides, and that's Sideways. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:He didn't really switch sides. He was working for Unicron the entire time, and that job has him ''posing'' as both an Autobot and a Decepticon. If that's being a turncoat, then we need to put Punch, Armada Jetfire and Armada Scavenger in there as well, because they were also Decepticons at some point. Imagine three factions, A, B and C. If a guy from side A goes undercover as a B and later "betrayes" be and "becomes" a C, his true alligence is still with A, as he never was actually a B or C anyway. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

::And all those American soldiers who went and fight for the British weren't turncoats either- because that's where their loyalties always lay?
::That's the ''origin of the term''.
::I realize there's a difference between a turncoat and a double-agent... but sideways seems like he belongs in both somehow. :p Armada thrust, I assume, is a turncoat? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Uh, if Americans were fighting for the British in the American Revolution, then I don't see how their allegiance wasn't to Britain instead of America. I know you like to be incoherent, Derik, but come on now. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 23:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

== Bad Luck ==

In Transformers Cybertron Sideways had alot of bad luck. IG he fell into alot of traps.

Yes, yes he did. THAT made me laugh like I was 10. Which I'm not. Oh, and sign your posts, for the love of [[Primus]]. [[User:BUMBLEBEE|The 'Bee :)]] 19:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

== RiD Art? ==

I wince a little to even ask but... does any art of his RiD incarnation exist? --Some jerk who didn't sign his name!
: Nope! RID stuff didn't have packaging art, just retouched toy photography. So since that version never got any fiction, d'oh well. Which is just as well, since the Armada guy probably belongs up there anyway. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:01, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== RM Section ==

The Robotmasters section has this note;
{{note|In this continuity family, the character is known as "Doubleface," which is one of his Japanese names. Since Robot Masters is a Japanese franchise with no English-language equivalent, we do not use the English name "Sideways" in this section.}}
...huh? We're not using English names for characters that ''have them'' because the fiction was published in Japan? That seems not-right. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

:I added that note to account for the way the section was already written, under the assumption that it was written correctly. I have no strong feelings on the matter. '''Edit:''' Okay, I've got some feelings now! I'm thinking you're right, Derik, on the logic that if we use "Doubleface" for the RM section, then we would also need to use "Convoy," "Beast Convoy," etc. I think the reason the section was written the way it was is that the author was preserving a veneer of ambiguity over the character, noting that he only CALLED himself by this particular name, for whatever value you choose to give that. But at this point is there any reason to cast that doubt? I don't know RM well enough to say for sure, but the discussion above and what I've gathered about the nature of RM suggest to me that there's no good reason to treat him differently than all of the other old-characters-in-new-bodies that are RM's stock in trade. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:28, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:: I wrote the section using "Doubleface" because that fiction has no English-language equivalent. I'm not super-attached to using his Japanese name there. I just thought it might be appropriate. Part of the reason is that we call his toy "Doubleface" in the respective toy section. We don't "translate" that into his English name, so it felt weird doing it for Robot Masters. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The Fiction and Toy sections have different naming rules, though (or so I'd gathered). Each individual toy is labeled as whatever is on its packaging, period. But for fiction, we homogenize as much as possible (hence calling RM Convoy "Optimus Prime"). So.... yeah, I'm going to change that section. Also, while I'm at it - ''Robot Masters'' isn't its own continuity family, is it? The fiction is pretty sparsely documented here, but what I've been able to scrounge up says it's in some G1 universe or other. Characters are just warping like crazy from across time and space to a G1 Earth in the year 2004. So I'm going to change the continuity-family label too. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:27, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, RM definitely isn't its own continuity family. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:42, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::The name change is especially bothersome to me here because... RM Doubleface is the toy that explicitly established that all the Doublefaces were the same character. "This guy first appeared in RiD."
:::While on the subject... I thought that Cybertron Sideways was actually an AU version of Armada sideways or something... isn't Planet X actually from a parallel universe? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:46, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::No, Ask Vector Prime makes it clear he is the same guy. He just happens to be from a parallel dimension, originally. Or... well, wait. Did the Planet X attack happen before or after Gigantian got moved to that parallel dimension? Eh. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:48, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Oh, that makes sense, I guess. Assuming he was in the RiD universe "before" armada (and he'd have to be, his fiction is a straight line afterward) there's really no reason the Armadaverse has to be his "home" universe.
:::::...I feel like this might benefit from an "Origins" section explaining that unlike other characters, this fiction section is all the same iteration of the same guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:52, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'm working one up right now, though I'm putting it in "Notes". You can do as you wish with it when I'm done. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::That's good to-- possibly a better way of presenting it too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:01, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

==TV Magazine?==
There was a Robotmasters story featured in TV Magazine as well? Anyone have scans? [[User:Lightsyderthe2nd|Lightsyderthe2nd]] 10:05, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

==(RID)?==

Why isn't it Sideways (Armada)? Because he's more prominent in the Unicron Trilogy, and if I recall RID Sideways was a toy only guy. [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 15:01, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
:Because the RID Sideways toy was later confirmed to be the same character as Armada Sideways. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:31, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::Gearshift isn't contesting that point. He knows they're the same guy; he wants to know why we're not using the most intuitively ''prominent'' identifier. The answer - and I know we had a discussion about this article's title somewhere; I think it got lost in the crash - is that we decide what to use for a disambiguation-parenthetical by starting with [[:Help:Disambiguation#Disambiguation suffixes|one simple rule]]: the first franchise the character appeared in. Sideways appeared in RID first, and there are no other RID Sidewayses. So that's that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Just to be clear, if e-hobby were to retroactively decide that one of the seekers from MtMtE was, in fact, the same guy, Sideways, we'd rename him Sideways (G1), right? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:55, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::No, because he was RID and Armada and Cybertron before he was G1. Actually, he already DOES exist in the G1 timeline, thanks to Robot Masters. This is an area we go real-world by, not in-fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:23, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::But I thought the confirmation that RID Sideways was the same as Armada Sideways came after Armada ended. So, how would that be any different? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:32, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::His RiD bio was written to mesh with the upcoming Armada character... he was ''always'' intended to be the same guy. We just didn't get it ''explicitly'' stated until Robotmasters.
::::::And I'm not sure Siph is right here. If we were to get ''a'' Seeker named Sideways who ''was'' this same guy and showed up in G1 in new fiction, then he'd still be Sideways (RiD). But if the black seeker in MtMtE (you only see his shoulder and head, he's hiding like Waldo!) was to to be ''revealed'' to be this same Sideways, then I think he'd move to "Sideways (G1)" because the G1 cartoon would be his earliest chronological appearance.
::::::@Gearshift... IIRC, in early 2008 we constructed a fully-thought-out justification why it would be consistent with our notability guidelines (we have them, they just '''very rarely''' come into play) why it would make sense to keep Sideways at "Sideways (Armada)" if we ever got a second character with his name.
::::::And then then [[Sideways (ROTF)]] was announced, the article just got moved to "Sideways (RID)" with very little discussion, and almost no objection. (I'm not quite sure why, but I speculate that Animated's flogging of just-like-G1-but-not characters combined with the increasing number of continuity-jumping characters just eroded a lot of the resistance people had to using the 'proper' disambig.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:42, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Actually, even if a black G1 Seeker was revealed to be the same guy, he still would be Sideways RID, since we established that toy releases take precedence in terms of first franchise. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:50, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I'm blanking, could you cite me an example? (Wing Dagger type situations don't count.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:52, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::[[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based]] --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:59, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::OK, but what if there was G1 fiction that repurposed an existing G1 toy, say Doubleclouder, as the same old lovable Sideways? Then would we move him to Sideways (G1) since the first toy of him was in the G1 line? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:49, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::''My'' understanding would be no, since he was never officially released as that toy, and the toys still take precedence. The fiction only counts if there's no official toy to work from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:09, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::: Fair. But if some new fiction retroactively made, say Beast Wars Megatron the same character as Go-Bots Megatron, then we'd move Megatron (BW) to Megatron (G2) since that that would be an exactly analogous situation to Sideways. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:39, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Probably the article would be at "Doubleclouder" with the "Sideways (RID)" stuff moved there. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:43, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::I don't think Jeysie was suggesting that he ''was'' Doubleclouder... rather than the DC toy was repurposed-within-the-same-continuity-family to represent two separate characters, like the G2 Cyberjets Air Raid and Aero Raid.
:::::::::::If a Japanese guidebook revealed no-appearances G2 Go-bot "Double Clutch (G2)" to be [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4a__-u6czw#t=4m20s Sandstorm's unnamed friend from Fight or Flee], we'd move it to "Double Clutch (G1)" with no real debate-- the character was around by that name in G1. It's that simple, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:00, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::''"Beginning. Middle. End. Facts. Details. Condense. Plot. Tell it."'' ~'''Agent Simmons''' Yay or nay to the idea of a move? [[User:Gearshift|Gearshift]] 06:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Nay, he was an RID toy first. For the rationale, read the page I linked to. (Basically, I made the same sort of argument you did in your edit summary, and we hashed it out and realized that just doesn't work logistically after all.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:10, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

See, I don't get that at all, Jeysie. With Sideways, we've got basically two different characters with the same name in two different franchises. A third franchise comes along and declares them to be the same character, so we decide to disambig by the earliest chronological toy. (Authorial intent on those original tech specs is dubious, since many times name reuse comes with similar phraseology across franchises with no intent that the toy represents the same character.) If we think that this is enough to move the disambiguation to the first toy, then that should be the rule for all characters retroactively declared to be the same guy. If BW Megatron is declared cannonically to have been the same dude as Go-Bots Megatron from the earlier G2 franchise, then we should move him to Megatron (G2).

A corollary to this is that, since we disambig by the TOY of first franchise for characters who are retroactively the same across timelines, if we need to disambig Unicron for whatever reason he'll be Unicron (Armada). (OH, I'm so tempted to actually stick in a non-Unicron character named Unicron into one of my books just to see that argument.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:20, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:Personally, I don't like that Robot Masters can retcon the Armada continuity. I think that ''in the Robot Masters continuity'', RID Sideways = Armada Sideways, but ''in the Armada continuity,'' RID Sideways ≠ Armada Sideways. Saying RID Axer came from G1 is different, because it isn't really retconning any G1 fiction except to say that once all the G1 fiction was over with, he hopped into the RID universe. Having said that, I think RID is a little bit of an exception. The toyline was sort of used as a catch-all "Universe"-type concept with a loose regard to continuity. It has "Air Attack Optimus Primal" for example. He is taken as the Optimus Primal from the Beast Machines era. If he is the Optimus Primal his bio draws RID into the Beast Wars's history.
:As for your Megatron example, Go-Bots Megatron is G1 Megatron. The bio says Megatron took this new car altmode so Megatron (BW) would move to Megatron (G1). Your Unicron example shows why the toy should not necessarily take precedence. It should be the first real-world appearance, be it toy or fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:48, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::Thing is... they're not really all that different as characters. The RID and Armada bios are if not 1:1 exact, they're so damn close they might as well be. This was a source of confusion as soon as Sideways's Armada bio was revealed, and it's possible that the production scheduling meant Armada Sideways was developed first despite being released second. And we were still kind of not used to the whole "multiverse" thing yet. At any rate, I frankly advise against trying to nail down a standard for bizarre hypotheticals. Ours is a fucked-up franchise, and trying to predict how to handle the next strange once-in-a-lifetime mutation is really an exercise in futility. A lot of what we do really does have to fall under a case-by-case with the hope that general guidelines will suffice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Hey, that's the answer I wanted all along - let's go case-by-case and let common sense prevail. That being the case, wouldn't the 'common sense' answer be to move Sideways back to Armada, which is where the bulk of his characterization comes from and where most fans know him from? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:23, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::I think any fan who really knows about Sideways in Armada must by definition be hardcore enough to have known he was the RID character already. I mean, he's a second-stringer from a cartoon most people hated from 7 years ago. With that in mind, I think the risk of actually confusing anybody is very, very slight. Besides, part of Sideways' characterization prominently featured in our article is that "self-sufficient ninja" shtick, which really was introduced in RID, and there is simply no way to NOT have the article introduction mention his RID incarnation. So once we've acknowledged it, what's wrong with keeping it in his name? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 13:42, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

:This whole "toys first" thing is total nonsense. It stems from the discussion Jeysie linked to (thanks for saving it! Do you have the other pieces too? We need those back here...), where Siph was (over)reacting to Jeysie's claim that the toys didn't really matter at ''all.'' In the end, what actually matters is FRANCHISE, which applies to BOTH TOYS AND FICTION. Jim, your example is a perfect case: If we ever needed to disambiguate [[Unicron]], making him "Unicron (Armada)" because that was the franchise that first sold him as a toy is ridiculous. He was created as a character in the 1986 movie, which was released under the G1 franchise. THAT'S his franchise of origin.
:Your questioning of the (RID) on this article is also very keen: What does "origin" mean when you involve cross-franchise retconning? I don't have a clear answer, though I'm on the side of (RID) because the retcon was such a very short leap, due to the nontrivially-similar bios and the association the RID character had with [[Axer|another dimension-hopper]] from the get-go. This is admittedly a judgement call, and the hypothetical example of retconning a G1 character who has no inherent connection (the "black Seeker") into this Sideways would be a much more challenging case. Good thing we don't have to deal with it yet!
:Though I'm not as dismissive of "bizarre hypotheticals" as Siph is. The idea of putting a parenthetical on this article was at one point a hypothetical that we had a valuable discussion around. I think Derik is misremembering the outcome of that; I recall it ending with more support for (RID), which I thought was why the actual move was so uncontroversial.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::There's the [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Insecticon Swarm]] talk page and the [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|main notes]], if that's what you mean by "other parts".
::And, what do you mean "toys first thing is total nonsense"? I distinctly remember that I came down on the side of determining franchise of origin by the fiction, everyone yelled at me, we had the whole discussion, and determined that remaining with determining franchise of origin via the toys was the best way to handle it.
::If people suddenly start changing to the reverse and taking up my initial argument of determining franchise by the fiction, I swear I'm gonna kick y'all out of irritation until you make up your freakin' minds. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:40, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::As I said in that discussion, the toys-vs.-fiction thing is a false dichotomy. Take the toys entirely out of the equation, and there are still franchises. Every piece of TF fiction - be it comic, TV show, book, whatever - is released with some kind of franchise-identifier (usually the logo on the cover or in the intro sequence). It doesn't matter HOW a character appears first, whether it's a toy or a drawing on a page or a 3D rendering onscreen; what matters is what franchise that appearance is under.
:::'''Edit:''' Oh, and yeah, those are exactly the "other pieces" I mean. Those totally need to be reincorporated into the wiki; in total, they're pretty much the Debate To End All Debates on this topic.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:51, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Apparently they're not, seeing as how after all that, there's people here arguing the same stance I initially got griped at for. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:58, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Which is exactly why we need to have those discussions back on here, so we can point people to them and go, "There. THAT'S why." - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:27, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::I have nothing to add to this other than I've always considered Sideways to be an Armada character, and I think, despite what Thy says, one of the stand out characters of the series. I recall people going "HOLY CRAP NO WAY!" back when forums used to have play-by-play threads for Armada and we watched [[Detection]]. Basically, if TF fans hear the name Sideways, they think "the purple motorcycle guy from Transformers Armada". --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:54, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::I just want to point out for clarification... Robotmasters didn't ''retcon'' Rid Sideways into being Armada Sideways... RM ''confirmed'' it, having been hinted at before (and there being discussion to that effect on att.)
::Sideways was part of a 2-pack... the other guy was Axer, whose bio showed that he was G1 Axer and he'd been accidentally transported into the RiD-verse. Obviously Sideways was their joke... making him an ''upcoming'' character, so the two pack was ''both'' guys from other universes, one old, one new.
::(Left we forget, in 2002 when they were released, a lot of the fandom was operating on the idea that Transformers was a 'mythology', where everything was part of one big loose universe that kinda-sorta fit with everything else, just not all at once. Axer being transported from one reality to another was the first example of the Transofrmers Multiverse EVER, a concept that was being developed for Armada.)
::I also don't think we disambigh characters by toylines... we disambig the, by franchise. It's just that toyline have an ''almost'' 1:1 relatioship with franchises. (which in turn have a .9:1 relationship with the continuity family) that screws people up.
::If we used the ''toyline'', we'd have "Blurr (Universe)" or "Blurr (Universe 2008)" instead of "Blurr (Shattered Glass)". -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:21, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Er, I had been under the impression that Shattered Glass was its own separate toy franchise, insofar that the BotCon toys were released under that label.
:::But in any case, I'm more than just a little frustrated that we spent all that time determining that we ''do'' in fact disambiguate characters by toy franchise—including my getting ''insulted'' by various people for even contemplating disambiguating by fiction—and now folks are taking the opposite standpoint. WTF. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'm getting frustrated that you keep misrepresenting the current rule as being "toy-based." It's NOT. It's whatever came first, whether it's toy OR fiction. Yes, some people argued against you in a toy-based way, but I don't think they represent the sum total of all arguments against your point of view. For a while, you were attempting to do away with the franchise-of-origin rule entirely, in favor of whatever term (franchise, continuity family, series, etc.) was most representative of the scope of each particular character's appearances. And THAT'S the kind of thing that I saw most people balking at, since it invited debate on almost every disambiguated page we have. "One simple rule" was what the real dogpiling was all about, and the toys-vs.-fiction thing was totally secondary to that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:49, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::'''Yes''', it is. The entire '''point''' of the discussion was disambiguating by toys vs. disambiguating by fiction. And we specifically agreed at one point as part of the examples that toy appearances take precedence! It's all ''there'' in the discussions.
:::::But whatever. I just find it ironically irritating that I had a standpoint, everyone told me it was wrong, I was convinced it was wrong (by '''you''', I might add) and changed to agreeing with everyone else... and now I'm wrong again because people are doing a 180 from the standpoint they reached last time.
:::::Whatever, it's pretty obvious I can't win. I'm just going to bow out before I have to deal with being insulted again even though I'm trying to advocate the same freakin' conclusion we reached the last time this came up. Wish people could make up their damn minds on things and stick to it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::SG Blurr was released in the ''Timeines'' toyline. And the SG guys that didn't have to be disambiguated were at "(Timelines)" till people complained about having to remember which characters get "(Shattered Glass)" and which don't. (Why are we using "Shattered Glass", anyway? Wouldn't it be more consistent for us to use "SG"?) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:33, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::: I gotta agree with Interrobang, SG seems like a more sensible disambiguation than the entire phrase.
::::: Jeysie, rereading the link you posted, I don't really see a clear consensus for any position. Maybe I'm just not reading closely enough. Certainly, franchise of origin (be it toy or fiction or something else) seems like the most sensible choice to me, if only to avoid the Unicron (Armada) example above.
::::: Derik, I think it's inaccurate of you to state, unambiguously, that Axer and Sideways were intended to both be dimension hopping characters from the get-go. A mention of a black hole does not automatically mean a continuity-hopping character. It's a fun inference to draw, but until Robot Masters confirmed it all we had was fanon. (I'll point out that many bios echo elements of earlier incarnations of characters from other continuities. The earliest bios for Optimus Primal and BW Megatron seem to imply that they were the same characters as G1 Prime & Megatron, maybe we should combine those articles. Oh, and Optimus Prime in G1 was seen entering a black hole to find Nucleon ... maybe Armada Optimus Prime is the same guy? Heck, wasn't RID Megatron specifically from a dimensional rift? Let's fanon out who HE was supposed to be! )
::::: Finally, I'm with FFN, Sideways was a stand-out character from Armada. I think it's pretty easy to be a fan of his without knowing that there was a toy-only character of his with a similar bio that was later retconned into the same guy by a Japanese franchise. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::I was thinking the other day that (SG) would have made more sense. Not sure it's worth having to move 100+ articles at this point, though.
::::::And, I was pretty much the only one who thought that using the fiction as a basis for origin was a good idea... everyone else (who took the time to comment, anyway... if there's people who agreed with me, they couldn't be fussed to actually say anything at the time) was ''quite'' clear on stating they thought I was nuts. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:53, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::May as well do it now, before it becomes 200. Besides, there will surely be some SG Animated or RID or UT at some point, so we'll probably be changing them all anyway. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:29, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If we are going to move them, we'd be best off having Derik's bot do it, I think, if it can be tweaked for that purpose. Especially since we'd need to tag all of the moved talk page redirects to be deleted, and change all links, and... *groan*
::::::::But I'm honestly not sure we'd ever need to do it. There won't be an SG UT, per se, because there's already UT characters in the existing SGverse, and I can't see there ever being an official SG Animated or Movie. (I got the feeling that once the existing SG storyline plays out, that'll pretty much be it, seeing as how it'd be a couple years old at that point, at least.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:39, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

::::::Jim, to your comment that there was no "clear consensus for any opinion"... Skimming over the links, it looks like we're still missing the heart of the discussion. The debate started at [[Talk:Insecticon swarm|Swarm (G1)]], migrated to [[Help talk:Disambiguation]], and ended with [[Help:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Jeysie's Sandbox]] (and accompanying [[Help talk:Disambiguation/Franchise-based vs. Fiction-based|Talk page]]). As you can see, we're still missing Talk:Disambiguation, which is where the debate truly became epic. Believe it or not, Talk:Swarm (G1) was only the warmup. And by the time the Sandbox was made, most of the participants had petered out. In the meantime, I distinctly remember a violent pileup in the middle, where it seemed like every damn editor had jumped in. I recall a certain viewpoint being supreme, but obviously Jeysie recalls differently. Please tell me there's a cached version somewhere out there.....? It would be a damn shame for all that butt-hurt to vanish into the ether, dooming us to repeat it again someday. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:13, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::...I don't remember there ever being any discussion on "Help:Disambiguation". The "big epic discussion" took place on Swarm and my Sandbox talk as far as I know. At least, those were the only parts of the discussion ''I'' personally took part in. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::On your copy of Talk:Insecticon swarm, there's a note right above the "Merge to Insecticon (G1)" section that says, "Due to the size and scope of this debate, it is recommended further discussion be taken to Help talk:Disambiguation." I swear to you on the grave of my mother's camel and my uncle's goat and even my sister's donkeys that the discussion WAS taken there, and you were involved in it, and that's where it truly got hairy. That was where I suggested the idea of doing a sandbox in the first place. (Note that the idea had not been mentioned in the Swarm-page discussion.) It was basically more of the same, but by the end there were people totally coming out of the woodwork to defend the status quo. Hooper called us all retards... is any of this ringing a bell? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:26, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, I remember the being insulted and everyone disagreeing with me part, but I had thought that took place on one of those two pages. I remember making the Sandbox because of the Swarm discussion, not there being an interim thing. In any case, the only cache for any Disambiguation discussion page is "Transformers Wiki talk:Disambiguation" with Steve-O saying it should be deleted since we already had "Help:Disambiguation", so, yeah. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:42, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::: Leaving hurt feelings and bruised egos aside, having an argument once doesn't invalidate the need to revisit those conclusions from time to time, as the franchise (and our understanding of it) evolves. I think that disambiguating by the franchise of origin, be it from a toy or from the fiction, is a generally sound policy. Is that agreed? (The corner cases are those instances where retcons 'move up' the francise of origin, but I think understanding the general case first is a good move.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:19, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In this case, this is '''at least''' our fourth or fifth go-round on this subject.
:::::::::::That's good though, because the the situation keeps changing. Back when we were first having it, disambigs were fairly clear-cut. You have (G1), (BW) etc. There was very little name duplication withint he G1 franchise. But that's changing. We're getting a lot more toys issues within G1, so now it's not un-common to see G1 guys disambig'd (Universe) or (Timelines). (Both disambigs I loathe, BTW, because Univerrse and Timelines both have toys ftrom non-G1 continuity families.) As the problem gets more complicated, we need to revisit our assumptions from time to time.
:::::::::::My only input into thisdiscussion... I'm against (SG) for Shattered Glass guys. As there is a not-insignificant chance we'll eventually get a Shattered Glsass Movieverse (or something... Wyatt said he wished he'd gotten to do a SG Animated ep...) I think we are ''far'' mroe likely to end up moving these articles to "(Shattered G1)." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:51, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::"(Shattered Glass)" does not make the articles immune from that problem, and we shouldn't be doing policies on "Maybe!" ("(SG G1)". Or "(Primax-)" if we're feeling hilariously dorky.)[[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:20, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::: I disagree. Maybe is a great reason to make changes. Forward looking changes make our lives easier. I think SG G1 would be a much better disambig than Shattered Glass. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:27, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: The weird thing about (SG G1) is... on the one hand, technically it is, since it's in Primax. On the other hand, we've got the likes of Will, Rick, Demolisher, and Dropshot in there. On the gripping hand, it's not like SG doesn't defy every other attempt to apply standard rules to it without there being utter weirdness (I'm reminded of the line on Continuity Family: "It is entirely possible for a universe to be exactly 50% 'Robots in Disguise' and 50% 'Armada', defying categorization.").
:::::::::::::: I'd still almost want to just leave it at (SG) and just have (SG Movie) or (SG Animated) if it comes up. (Although I admit I don't think it will... it seems like by the time the current SG storyline finishes, FunPub would be moving on to something else. Much to my complete sadness, admittedly.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:26, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Yeah, it's nice to have a backup plan, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now, all we need is a single parenthetical for "Shattered Glass", period. The only reason I see for spelling it out is the assumption that most people wouldn't know what "SG" stands for... but when has that [[Ultra Magnus (Universe Two-Pack)|stopped]] [[Sandstorm (OC)|us]] [[Bombshock (ROC)|before]]? I vote for "(SG)". - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:12, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I vote for (SG) as well, but we should really move this to [[Shattered Glass (franchise)]], I think. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:19, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF Sideways is not UT Sideways ==

As Sorenson on the Allspark Forums pretty clearly stated, (http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=70553&view=findpost&p=1575577) Almanac is full of in-Jokes and easter eggs. There is no reason at all to maintain that Animated Sideways vacation spot marks him as the ROTF Character of the same name. The intent certainly was not to combine the two character, but rather as a joke/easter egg giving a wink toward Hasbro's name reuses. And even if it was, the stretch is highly tenuous, and would fall under the TFWiki's own definitions of Authorial Intent (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Authorial_intent) and Pseudocannon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pseudocanon). - Master Fwiffo
:I'd just like to point out that saying RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways based on the single mention of a word is akin to saying the motorcycle Wreck-Gar threw at Bumblebee was actually the corpse of G1 Wreck-Gar who happened to dimension-hop there. Or that Spike and Carly and Daniel dimension-hopped from G1 and decided to live in Animated instead. Or that WASP from Shattered Glass is actually a dimension-hopping AniBee who was killed and whose corpse was converted into a salesbot. In other words, I'm saying a simple fanwank does not a large continuity reshuffle make. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:03, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
Yes, combining ROTF Sideways with UT/RID Sideways after an in-joke in the Almanac is not really a good move. I mean, we didn't merge Optimus Prime (RID) with Optimus Prime (G1) when some Takara guy says that they're the same continuity, did we? I mean, merging every single Fallen and Unicron and Primus is already confusing to people not familiar with the multiversal singularity thing, there's nothing to say that Sideways the dimension hopper is the same Sideways that got bisected in ROTF. And that is even if Sideways hopped from Animated to ROTF. It's an small in-joke, is all. [[Special:Contributions/110.138.16.169|110.138.16.169]] 09:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:In Japanase fiction, "Fire Convoy" is indeed in the same continuity as "Convoy". But they are different characters. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::I really wish you people would stop retardedly using "CR is in G1" as an argument against this. [[:Category:Car Robots characters|We recognize and embrace it.]] Find another dead horse to beat. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:43, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==Sideways is a special case. Little bus special.==
I don't go by author-intentism, though I am curious to see the reaction of those who do to Sorenson's "in-jokes and Easter Eggs" comment. Speaking only for myself, if it turns out Hasbro did not know Cybertronix was a real language instead of page deco then I am uncomfortable with any and all of the assertions that, under that circumstance, would have been snuck past their attention to be canonized by their stamp without review.

On the evidence itself, just about everybody agrees that Animated Sideways is clearly "the" Sideways. It is paradoxical to claim that a dimension jumper would be unique and constrained within the Animated dimension, therefore he has to be "somebody else," in this case the original Sideways.

Since he has the ROTF body and is said to have the power to dimension-jump and is said to be going to Shanghai, one could make an after-the-fact, God-of-the-gaps, not explicitly conveyed in fiction argument that he's ROTF Sideways too.

And if this were '''ANY OTHER CHARACTER''', nobody would be willing to make the leap, the evidence would be judged to be not strong enough, and there would be two pages here.

But basically everything Sideways has ever done has been explained onto the fiction by the after-the-fact handwaving of secondary authors. He never actually DOES these remarkable and unique things attributed to him, just the next guy in line every 2 years or so writes him up as having done it while we were asleep. It's his shtick. We've already made that leap of faith like 3 times. It would be completely arbitrary for us to try to draw a line in the sand here and say "no further."

So while I don't like it, I can go along with it. Numerous editors--particularly those that post on Allspark--have also shown degrees of discomfort with the idea. If they've got real problems with it, I suggest that THEY suggest it be put up for a vote.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly: ''If this article is going to be merged, it will need much more explanatory "note" text throughout and a much shorter and less specific opening, more along the lines of [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] and [[Prowl II]].'' People are going to read the article from start to finish, and so we will literally have to walk them through the arguments for unity. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

: (I hope I'm doing this right) The thing is, ROTF Sideways *has* a personality - not in the movies, but through the toy bios and video games and heck, even those UK comics. And those pretty clearly show that these two aren't the same character. All the other Sideway's have faction swapping and some other sort of extra-dimensional powers attributed to them. ROTF Sideways was an average Decepticon. You can't make that leap then, because they are two different characters with literally no relationship whatsoever. If ROTF Sideways was a faction swapping - or even somewhat mysterious or something, I might could buy it. But he's not. He's Joe Average Decepticon. - Master Fwiffo

::'''''Sideways''' is the consummate con-artist. He is misleading and deceitful in everything he does, portraying himself as the ninja-like warrior or the aloof drifter, and he lives for the look of shock and betrayal on his victims' faces when they realize he's played them for fools.'' That's an excerpt from the very article. He could easily be playing it up in order to trick the people of this new universe. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

::: Yes, that's Armada Sideways bio. ROTF Sideways bio says he's a courier, that he's cowardly, that he's BFF with Demolishor, and gives no indication across any of his bios that he has super mystical unicronian powers. He *could* be lying. He *could* have lost his powers in a diminsion jump. He *could* have decided to go to Hawaii before Shanghai, donned a hula skirt while drunk, and gambled away his powers in a fit of drunken revelry. We have nothing whatsoever to prove this is the case. Not a damn thing. ALl we have is an in-joke in a book full of in-jokes that even if taken as fact IN NO WAY PROVES ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANIMATED SIDEWAYS THINKS SHANGHAI IS A NEAT PLACE TO VISIT.

:::In short, split these articles. - Master Fwiffo

::::No. You have a voice here, same as anyone, but you don't have the authority you seem to think you have. Make your argument, but don't tell people what to do.
::::For my part, I think it's perfectly reasonable to merge these. It's always been coming, and we now have fiction explicitly bridging the two. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

Obviously I put in a "No" vote. Not only is the Almanac not officially branded as Movie fiction, not only does it contradict stuff that ''was'' officially branded as Movie fiction, not only is there no proof that Hasbro approved the Almanac as anything but but a guide to Animated specifically and/or expected the non-Animated info to be taken seriously, but Sorenson even friggin' outright stated that the damn thing was only meant as a joke, and seeing as how his authorial intent was the only remote evidence for this applying to begin with... 
Yeah, let's stop this insanity. The wiki is not a place for the editors' pet fanon theories, it's a place for canon according to the people actually writing the storylines for each branded bit of fiction. The mention in the Almanac is worthy of a footnote at best, since it's at best authorial intent from someone with no connection to the actual branded Movie fiction anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:This article needs to be split in two again. There's zero canon evidence for a merger in this case. The one canon statement this is vaguely based on only states that Animated Sideways would like to go to Shanghai at some point. We don't know what universe the Shanghai he wants to go to is in, let alone whether or not he ever got there. The only evidence he did go to the one in the Movie universe is the intent of one of the authors. Looking at the page for authorial intent we get:
::''[[Authorial intent]]: Facts about the fiction that are stated/intended by the authors but never established in official fiction are often referred to as pseudocanon.''
:Subsequently, looking at pseudocanon we find:
::''[[Pseudocanon]]: Pseudocanon usually fits in well with the actual canon (at least until a later writer invalidates it), as it is the writers' idea of "what is really going on" as they craft their stories. However, because it is not established in any official fiction, it can't be taken as a given or definitely "true".''
:So according to this very Wiki, AUTHORIAL INTENT IS NOT CANON. And since authorial intent was the only reason the pages were merged in the first place, that means the pages were merged without basis. The prosecution rests. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:17, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

==D8==

Regarding the fact he was ALREADY sliced in half if the RID Sideways is ROTF Sideways.....does that mean he'll *gulp* come back?

[[User:Sideways 343|Sideways 343]] 03:42, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== This Revamp... ==

Just wanted to say I like the more genaric opening and the expanded explanitary notes on his weird situation added in this revamp. I might suggest a specific section, like Unicron has, directly following the bio to really address, directly and out of universe, all the retcons and hazy links that connect all the versions and how this came to be one page. As long as we're up front about the way the conglomorate character was built, where bits came from and how hazy the connections really are then there's absolutely no problem with keeping the merged. Our job is to get across the info on the character to the reader. Do that clearly and that's all that matters. IMO. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:37, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

:Plausability does not make it canon. If you guys won't put in Megatron's Spark being put back into him or Dead Mens Boots as canon, there is no reason whatsoever to for two characters that don't fit together. Leave that last paragraph with animated Sideways - and from there, link to the ROTF Sideways profile on it's own separate page. Again, this bridge is made of straw. -Master Fwiffo
::Can you please stop [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Dead_Men%27s_Boots imagining up] [[Megatron_(G1)#Beast_Wars|things the Wiki]] does not do? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:51, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:: I thought "plausibility does not make it canon" was our argument, not yours. (And I think I'd find your contribution on this one Hot Button Topic to be more palatable if you'd contributed here anywhere else ever. You don't even have a Userpage! You're only here to troll this one subject! It's kinda meatpuppety.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:50, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::: Walky, I don't edit the Wiki, because I know it'd destroy all my free time if I did, and I'm already overloaded on other TF projects over at the Allspark. I'm really thankful for the work you guys do. No, really. I am. I read the article a lot (far more, I'd wager, then the average TF fan). But I really feel I have to take a stand on this because I like *both* versions of Sideways too much to let them be the same character, especially on such a tenuous, shaky bridge. Doing this only cheapens both - because either UT Sideways got the hell gimped out of him when he hit Tyrax, or ROTF Sideways is actually just a mindless fabrication of someone whos actually superpowerful (except he did nothing but die on screen). I mean seriously, look at those two options. That's bad fanfic writing right there. It makes the entire concept of Drift look brilliant by comparison. THe only reason I even brought it up here is because people insisted that this argument should be involved more on the wiki - so I'm presenting it here. I really do feel strongly about this, and trying to connect such shaky dots and claim it cannon really offends my sensabilities. I make fanon assumptions and connections all the freaking time. I enjoy doing it. But I sure as heck don't post them on the wiki. -Master Fwiffo
:::So wait. The opinion of people who spend time on the wiki, but don't necessarily edit it is completely irrelevant? Especially on something that'll throw off the casual visitor like this?? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 15:26, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::I'm saying that if Fwiffo wants to make a very major contribution IN GOOD FAITH, he could at least register his name. It's pretty simple! It makes it feel like he has an actual stake here, rather than making a hit-and-run contribution. (You curse out entirely too many anonymous/new editors for me to take your criticism here seriously.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::To be fair Interro, Dead Men's Boots is being put on here as pseudocanon and is the reason the apocrypha template is being created. You and Fwiffo are both half right and half wrong. And Walky, the plausibility argument goes both ways on this one. It's no more plausible that the two Sideways are one and the same, based on the statement of wanting to visit Shanghai, than it is plausible that they're not the same. Between that and a visual similarity that's just as likely to be merely an homage as not, I'm not actually sure we can prove either case. Which I would think means we have to assume the initial relationship between the characters (i.e. none) until proven otherwise. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 15:48, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::While I grudgingly believe the threshold of Sideways' normal after-the-fact handwaving history has been reached, clearly a lot of other people do not. I really don't want to see this turn into an ATTCM moment. It isn't worth it for two sentences in a Drink-Your-Ovaltine secret code. I think a fair course of action would be to give people some more time to register their thoughts on what a merged-and-annotated draft looks like, but if it's still pretty much 50/50 (or worse) and the aggravation hasn't stopped, I'd be in favor of splitting Movieways out--with notation blurbs at the beginning of his article and the end of "main" Sideways' Animated section describing the issue and how they very well might be the same character. We could convey the exact same content that way, while still leaving it to readers to determine whether the Shanghai to which A-SW traveled was in Animated or in Movie. I think it would be highly inappropriate to just ''cut out the same-character suggestion for Movie-ways entirely''. On one page or two, it has to be there. Because dammit, the situation IS different when it is long established that a character can Quantum Leap. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 16:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::I am in complete agreement with Thy on this one. BOTH DAMN SIDES are being really bulletheaded here, when there's a medium to be reached... the one he proposes. Let's look at our goddamn options to present the FACTS, whether we ''like'' ROTF Sideways being retconned into being the same one as the other one, just like ''every other weirdass issue we've had to deal with, from IDW's continuity to what the deal with Prime/WfC was continuity-wise'', and reach a consensus. I think we've more than hit Sideways-is-one saturation, even if there's room for debate... but then again, we hit that in ''so many other'' instances without this level of shit-slinging. 
:::::Because I swear, the level of pissy butthurt going on here is really, really embarrassing to witness. My god, people. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:07, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::I will throw my support behind this if it gets people to ''stop''. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Thy has my complete support, if only because his solution will finally end this continuity shitstorm. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 16:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I'm in favor of whatever results in a split page with a footnote and no more freakin' fanwank. (I'm not so much butthurt as I am crabby at how embarrassingly stupid all this fanwank has been.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::Don't really have an opinion on it, but it seems that it should at least be mentioned. The pages can be merged if/when it becomes more clear. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:46, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't really care about whether it's one page that mentions that they may or may not be the same, or two pages with notes saying "He may be the same guy as RID/ROTF Sideways." I don't really pay attention to all this complicated continuity stuff, so it'd be the same to me, as long as it conveys the same information. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:52, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::In case I hadn't made it clear before (I thought I had, but I guess not). I am *perfectly fine* with notes and blurbs on both pages saying they *might* be the same character by what the Almanac says. That was never an issue for me - the issue is the forced combination of the two when no solid bridge exist. Shoving them together only makes things confusing. - Master Fwiffo
::::::::::::I say we go with the common legal rule of "beyond a reasonable doubt." If evidence is shown that proves that Movie Sideways is UT Sideways beyond a reasonable doubt, then merge the shit out of them. The problem is that right now all we know is that UT Sideways wanted to go to Shanghai, right? There's, what, four Shanghais he can go to without going to the Movie universe? Until we see more evidence that he actually IS Movie Sideways, all we can say is that he went to A Shanghai. He might have even gotten the idea from seeing his counterpart from another universe get cut in half there. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:41, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I'd be perfectly happy with Thylacine's approach. And I very much agree with the "reasonable doubt" idea. That's what I was getting at with my edit just above Thy's suggestion. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: Thy's approach sounds like a great idea. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I think Thy has the right idea. The relationship between all the previous Sidewayses is certainly not rock-solid. I think everyone can agree on that point. The only two Sidewayses that are explicitely the same guy are the motorcycles from Robots in Disguise and Robot Masters. Anything else is connecting dots. It makes sense, and is probably worth a trivia note, but it's not definite. But here's the crux. No one really seemed to mind when those dots were connected previously. Robots in Disguise Sideways and Robot Masters Sideways are footnotes. They're essentially nobodies, notable only for probably being the same guy as UT Sideways. Animated Sideways, too, exists pretty much solely to create links. However, now movie Sideways is being brought into the fold on evidence no more rock solid than the link between RiD/RM and UT Sideways. The problem is, movie Sideways has a substantial amount of pre-existing fiction. He's his own character. So while there's just as much evidence (or lack thereof) connecting him to the dimension-hopping Sideways as UT Sideways has, there's a force opposing the connection caused by the fact that his movie persona exists, and that that persona is so different than the other Sidewayses (by which I mean UT Sideways, who's really the only one that's fleshed out). Basically, I tend to look at it like this - if the Movie Sideways article is divorced from the UT Sideways article - and I believe it should be, based on the lack of uncontroversial evidence linking them- then the RiD/RM Sideways must also be split from UT Sideways by the same criteria.[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 18:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::The reasonable doubt approach sounds fine to me. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 19:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

== Next Revamp ==

I've taken a stab at recreating ROTF Sideways, with necessary annotations, on my userpage. I don't remember how it originally began so I just whipped up the opening 'graf that you see. Let me know what you think. As for Sideways (RID), I'm envisioning that page's fiction section ending with the Animated notation, and then all the toys / merch / trivia pertaining to ROTF just vanishing. If there's some more elegant way to do this, please forgive me for not doing so--this is my first time trying my hand at something like this. If the original ROTF Sideways page is archived somewhere, I guess I just wasted some time. ;) --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:44, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:The last revision on ROTF Sideways prior to this is here, if it helps: [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Sideways_%28ROTF%29&oldid=473798] --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:56, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::....yeah, that woulda helped. Can we just re-instate that one, and then add annotations as necessary? And then, I guess, restore the "(RID)" suffix to this page...? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:15, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::This seems like a good compromise, but "the other Sideways" should be changed to "a Sideways", because the former implies that it is indeed the case that the two Sidewayses are different, while the latter seems about as ambiguous as possible.

Could someone please destroy the ROTF redirect to the current page? Can't create a new page if the title is already in the system. Thanks. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 09:43, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:If you click on the "redirected from" it takes you to the redirect page, click on history, click on the last non-redirect page, edit that to restore the previous page. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:08, 7 July 2010 (EDT)

== Multiversal Singularity? ==

Considering how the Allspark Almanac is basically retconning UT Sideways (who is apparently the same as RID Sideways) to be the same as ROTF Sideways as well as Animated Sideways, should we put Sideways in the multiversal singularity category now? --[[User:Cydra|Cydra]] 17:01, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:Nah. Sideways is more of a dimension hopper. Plus, I don't think there's anything saying that he's a multiversal singularity. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 17:04, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
::Unicron is supposedly getting his counterpart to the Thirteen, so I wouldn't be surprised if later retcons have Sideways as one of them. But I'm just speculating. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Also, it ''doesn't'' retcon UT Sideways into being ROTF Sideways. We're still not sure on that. (We know he's Animated Sideways, though.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 01:57, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
::::No, we don't even know ''that''. The source is vague on the issue, ''plus'' the writer of said source says his book is full of easter eggs.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 08:21, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::"Easter eggs" =/= "false" --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::"Ambiguously phrased easter eggs" =/= "definite proof". Y'know, just like [http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/quasar.html Buried Alien] is not definitely Barry Allen.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 10:04, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
well it could possible that he could of just change his paint job while traveling between universes.--[[User:Crystallskullguy|Crystallskullguy]] 11:12, 12 July 2010 (EDT)

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-27T18:13:04Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|]]
[[Image:ROTF Devastator combiner toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb||]]

[[Image:Atomiclugnutvoyager.jpg|right|200px|thumb|]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-27T18:10:40Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|]]
[[Image:ROTF Devastator combiner toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb||]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-27T18:10:04Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|]]
[[Image:ROTF Devastator combiner toy.jpg|right|300px|thumb||NOT.]]]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-27T18:09:42Z

Crystallskullguy:

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-27T18:08:11Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:19:32Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|can anyone tell me were the hell to find this?!]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:18:53Z

Crystallskullguy:

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:17:43Z

Crystallskullguy:

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:15:31Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|can anyone tell me were the hell to find this?!.]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:15:20Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|can anyone tell me were the hell to find this?!.]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:14:49Z

Crystallskullguy:

i like sexy fembots
[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|can anyone tell me were the hell to find this?!.]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-06-18T17:13:51Z

Crystallskullguy:

i like sexy fembots
[[Image:rotf_desertdevastation_rh.jpg|right|thumb|300px|D'awwwvstator.]]

Distribution

2010-06-05T23:18:28Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Featured characters */

{{episode|
|series=Energon
|series2=Superlink
|ep=43
|ep2=Special
|prev=Break Through
|next=The Omega Train
|title=Distribution
|japanese=必見! 夢の最強マッチ: 放映時間の異なる番外編
|romaji=Hikken! Yume no Saikyō Macchi: Hōei Jikan no Kotonaru Bangai Hen
|translation=A Must See! The Greatest Dream Match: Extra Episode with a Different Airtime
|image=E43 titlecard.jpg
|caption=This was where people started reevaluating their opinions of ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Akira Okeya]]
|director=[[Kei'ichirō Kawaguchi]]
|animation studio=[[Actas]], [[Studio A-CAT]] (3D)
|airdate=[[November 3|3 November]] 2004 (Japanese) [[January 28]], 2005 (English)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''A virtual training match pits Autobot against Autobot, Decepticon against Autobot, old bodies against new bodies, and commercial bumpers against plot advancement.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] ''strongly'' suggests to his men that, before they watch this, they turn on the lights.

In a huge arena, amid the cheers of thousands of spectators and waves of falling confetti, two [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robotic cat girls]] introduce the night's first combatants, [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] and [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]], vs. [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] and... Tidal Wave! And so begin the virtual games! It only takes Rodimus and Hot Shot a brief (off-screen) second to defeat their first opponents.

[[Alpha Quintesson|Alpha Q]] observes—it's some kind of virtual training program run by the [[Autobot]]s. At least one of his faces wants to change the channel.

The matches continue. [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] is suitably confused when Alpha Q comes out alongside [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]]. [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] and [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] squabble so much that the match is delayed, leaving [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] and [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] standing around with nothing to do; eventually the [[Decepticon]]s decide to try combining too, but just end up standing on each other's shoulders.

Rodimus and Hot Shot beat [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus]] and [[Wing Saber]]. Snow Cat and Demolishor win their match, probably because Downshift and Prowl tried powerlinking top-to-top; they're looking forward to the next one, wondering if there's prizes—maybe a power-up from Galvatron! Unfortunately, their next opponent ''is'' Galvatron, who's just finished off their old-body selves.

[[Image:Distribution SteamhammerBarricade.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Barricade's only appearance. Ever.]]
The combiners finish off [[Superion Maximus]], and take on Optimus Supreme, who stomps them. The [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] brothers take on Rodimus and Hot Shot; [[Six Shot]] gets annoyed with Shockblast and zaps him out of the program. The same trick fails against the Autobots, who are real and can overcome the program. Galvatron stomps off after beating Snow Cat and Demolishor, refusing to play the games any further.

The final match is Hot Shot and Rodimus against [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega]] and Optimus. Omega and Prime fly into the air, combine spectacularly and land... and Hot Shot and Rodimus are immediately declared the winners, as Optimus Supreme has landed outside of the ring. Optimus fumes that nobody told ''him'' about any stupid rules.

The winners get trophies, and the chance to battle a special guest. The ceiling opens up, and down comes… [[Unicron]]! A rather ''tiny'' Unicron. But tiny or not, he's still a force to be reckoned with. As they continue to battle, Alpha Q notes that perhaps the Transformers ''enjoy'' fighting.

And back in the real world, Hot Shot enthuses: he and Rodimus have finally beaten the game! He falls back into his seat, exhausted with pleasure. [[Kicker Jones|Kicker]] observes that they're more alike than he realized.

==Brackets==
{|class="wikitable" style="font-size:smaller;line-height:1;"
|-align="center"
|colspan="16"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|-align="center"
|colspan="8"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="8"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="4"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="4"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="4"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="4"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="2"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|colspan="2"|Jetfire + Ironhide
|colspan="2"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="2"|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|colspan="2"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="2"|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|Mirage + Tidal Wave
|Cliffjumper + Landmine
|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|Jetfire + Ironhide
|Scorponok + Alpha Q
|Inferno + Roadblock
|Six Shot + Shockblast
|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|Downshift + Prowl
|Galvatron + Starscream
|Cyclonus + Demolishor
|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|Superion Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (9)
* [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] (10)
* [[Cliffjumper (Energon)|Cliffjumper]] (13)
* [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] (14)
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (15)
* [[Wing Saber]] (16)
* [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] (17)
* [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] (18)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Inferno]] (21)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Roadblock]] (22)
* [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] (23)
* [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] (24)
* [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] (27)
* [[Superion Maximus]] (30)
* [[Bulkhead (Energon)|Bulkhead]] (31)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] (34)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)#Omega|Omega]] (35)
|c2=
* [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (1)
* [[Six Shot]] (2)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] (3)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (4)
* [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (5)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] (6)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Tidal Wave]] (11)
* [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]] (19)
* [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] (20)
* [[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] (25)
* [[Barricade (Energon)|Barricade]] (26)
* [[Constructicon Maximus]] (28)
* [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] (29)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (32)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (33)
|c3=
* [[Kicker Jones]] (37)
|c4=
* [[Nekomimi B]] (7)
* [[Nekomimi A]] (8)
* [[Alpha Quintesson]] (12)
* [[Unicron]] (36)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Angry face:''' Well, why are wasting our time watching them?! 
'''Sinister face:''' Good question. 
'''Hysterical face:''' I do so like to watch! 
'''Angry face:''' I think this is all a bunch of frivolous flub! Change the channel! 
'''Hysterical face:''' NOOOOOOOOO!
:—Alpha Q views the madness...and at least one of him likes what he sees.

"It almost looks like they're married!"
:—'''Snow Cat''' watches Prowl and Downshift squabble.

"Huh! There is ''no way'' I'm playing this childish little game. I'm going ''home''."
:—And '''Galvatron''' is taking his playthings with him!

"Gee, he sure is puny—''(Unicron fires massive laser)''—WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
:—'''Hot Shot''' eats his words.

==Other Notes==
===Lost in translation===
* In the ''Super Link'' version, Cliffjumper spouts his characteristic [[Engrish|Engrish]] line "Check it out, yo", which Landmine interprets as Japanese and, therefore, doesn't understand. The gag wouldn't have really worked for the dub.
* ''Super Link'' includes Scorponok proclaiming that Galvatron is still his master.
* The dub omits Six Shot marveling that the program manages to reproduce his brother's dim intellect; this is why Shockblast gestures angrily.
* Prowl and Downshift's argument is supposed to be over who would look cooler on top; the dub changes this to a random argument over... uh... something. This makes it much more random when later, they combine, both in their "top" modes.
* In ''Super Link'', Jetfire tells his partner Ironhide to relax, as Alpha Q is part of the program. Jetfire then calmly tells him that "by the way, I'm part of the program too." The dub omits the gag.
* Amazingly, all three of the combiner team leaders appear separated and in robot mode, and the groups finally get full animation of their combining sequences (previously hidden behind glowing balls of light.) The dub gets confused by this, having the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer say "Constructicon and Bruticus brought along a few of their friends" in reference to the combiners' limb components.
* The reason that Ironhide and Jetfire lose to the Shockblast brothers is that Six Shot tampered with the program. The dub makes it sound like Six Shot just fired some kind of weapon, in defiance of the animation.
* A gag that has Bulkhead declaring that the stubborn old man won't be in this episode is replaced in the dub by a lame line about "I didn't see that coming".
* Predictably, Hot Shot and Rodimus overcome Six Shot's virtual tampering through the power of [[burning justice|BURNING HEART OF FLAMING JUSTICE]] or some such. The dub changes it to "the power of powerlinking".
* In ''Super Link'', Demolishor and Snow Cat aren't afraid of the program Galvatron, and start insulting him, saying the original is much better. In the dub, they're afraid of him. The gag is further lost when it turns out that this ''is'' the real Galvatron.
* The dub has Optimus Prime saying "I AM YOUR LEADER!"... to the Decepticon combiners.
* The combiners' nature is briefly noted in ''Super Link'' when Prime tells the pair that "even ten isn't enough". The line doesn't appear in the dub.
* The dub omits the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer commenting that, though Optimus and Omega lost, it sure did look cool.
* The dub inserts a last line from Kicker that's supposed to be like, deep, or something. In ''Super Link'', he's just a bit appalled that Hot Shot has made time for this ridiculous game.

===Pain Count===
* "Uh?": 2
* Stock footage: 10, not including the made-up ones for Demolishor and Snow Cat.
* Let's do this: 2
* "Gimme a break": 1
* Take it Easy: 1

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*

===Continuity errors===
*

===Real-world references===
[[Image:Distribution FusionDance.JPG|right|200px|thumb|HA!]]
* Alpha Q notes that the training program is a bit like pro wrestling—you can't tell what's real and what's fake.
* After Demolishor and Snow Cat take a crack as powerlinking, the fake [[Commercial bumper|commercial bumper]] that follows their match depicts them doing the Fusion Dance from ''[[wikipedia:Dragonball_Z|Dragonball Z]].''

===Miscellaneous trivia===
* ''Cameos'': [[Energon Saber]], [[Skyblast (Energon)|Skyblast]], [[Strongarm (Energon)|Strongarm]], [[Signal Flare (Energon)|Signal Flare]], and [[Divebomb (Energon)|Divebomb]].
* In Japan, this episode was a special made to commemorate the 500th Transformers episode, which aired at a different time on a different day to the series norm, and did not feature an episode number in its title card. In America, it was just aired where it fell without fanfare, and hence came off as really, seriously, totally random.
* Not helping the situation any are the inclusion of several jokes based around aspects of the series which were cut for the ''Energon'' dub:
** For instance, the opening skit of the episode with Galvatron is a reference to the health-and-safety card that appears at the start of each ''Super Link'' episode, which features a still image of Optimus Prime and his voice telling the audience to sit back from the screen and watch in a well-lit room. In the ''Super Link'' version of this episode, Galvatron simply repeats Prime's standard dialogue word for word (with the gag being that he's in darkness, and the lights then ping on), while in ''Energon'', it has to be changed to Galvatron telling his men to turn the lights on, because American audiences hadn't seen the scene they were playing off.
**A large number of random fake ''Super Link'' [[commercial bumper]]s are included at the conclusion of most matches. Since the actual bumpers were not part of the ''Energon'' dub of the series, the "gag" of including them as part of the episode was essentially lost, since the audience had no idea what they were.
* Despite the lack of plot, the untranslatable gags, and the [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robot cat girl announcers]], there is a certain wit to the match-ups, such as having various present/past incarnations of the same guy fighting together, and Demolishor and Snow Cat walking in to find their old selves already defeated.
*This is the only robot-mode appearance of Bruticus Maximus's [[Barricade (Energon)|central component]]. ([[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] appears in "[[Galvatron Terror|Galvatron Terror]]", while [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] appears in "[[Spark (episode)|Spark]]".)
*The three Maximus combination sequences are entirely hand-drawn.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Transformer: Super Link'' — Volume 011 ([[Interchannel]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2008 — ''Transformers: Energon'' — The Ultimate Collection ([[Paramount Pictures|Paramount]])

[[Category:Energon episodes]]

Distribution

2010-06-05T23:15:31Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Featured characters */

{{episode|
|series=Energon
|series2=Superlink
|ep=43
|ep2=Special
|prev=Break Through
|next=The Omega Train
|title=Distribution
|japanese=必見! 夢の最強マッチ: 放映時間の異なる番外編
|romaji=Hikken! Yume no Saikyō Macchi: Hōei Jikan no Kotonaru Bangai Hen
|translation=A Must See! The Greatest Dream Match: Extra Episode with a Different Airtime
|image=E43 titlecard.jpg
|caption=This was where people started reevaluating their opinions of ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Akira Okeya]]
|director=[[Kei'ichirō Kawaguchi]]
|animation studio=[[Actas]], [[Studio A-CAT]] (3D)
|airdate=[[November 3|3 November]] 2004 (Japanese) [[January 28]], 2005 (English)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''A virtual training match pits Autobot against Autobot, Decepticon against Autobot, old bodies against new bodies, and commercial bumpers against plot advancement.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] ''strongly'' suggests to his men that, before they watch this, they turn on the lights.

In a huge arena, amid the cheers of thousands of spectators and waves of falling confetti, two [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robotic cat girls]] introduce the night's first combatants, [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] and [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]], vs. [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] and... Tidal Wave! And so begin the virtual games! It only takes Rodimus and Hot Shot a brief (off-screen) second to defeat their first opponents.

[[Alpha Quintesson|Alpha Q]] observes—it's some kind of virtual training program run by the [[Autobot]]s. At least one of his faces wants to change the channel.

The matches continue. [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] is suitably confused when Alpha Q comes out alongside [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]]. [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] and [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] squabble so much that the match is delayed, leaving [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] and [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] standing around with nothing to do; eventually the [[Decepticon]]s decide to try combining too, but just end up standing on each other's shoulders.

Rodimus and Hot Shot beat [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus]] and [[Wing Saber]]. Snow Cat and Demolishor win their match, probably because Downshift and Prowl tried powerlinking top-to-top; they're looking forward to the next one, wondering if there's prizes—maybe a power-up from Galvatron! Unfortunately, their next opponent ''is'' Galvatron, who's just finished off their old-body selves.

[[Image:Distribution SteamhammerBarricade.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Barricade's only appearance. Ever.]]
The combiners finish off [[Superion Maximus]], and take on Optimus Supreme, who stomps them. The [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] brothers take on Rodimus and Hot Shot; [[Six Shot]] gets annoyed with Shockblast and zaps him out of the program. The same trick fails against the Autobots, who are real and can overcome the program. Galvatron stomps off after beating Snow Cat and Demolishor, refusing to play the games any further.

The final match is Hot Shot and Rodimus against [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega]] and Optimus. Omega and Prime fly into the air, combine spectacularly and land... and Hot Shot and Rodimus are immediately declared the winners, as Optimus Supreme has landed outside of the ring. Optimus fumes that nobody told ''him'' about any stupid rules.

The winners get trophies, and the chance to battle a special guest. The ceiling opens up, and down comes… [[Unicron]]! A rather ''tiny'' Unicron. But tiny or not, he's still a force to be reckoned with. As they continue to battle, Alpha Q notes that perhaps the Transformers ''enjoy'' fighting.

And back in the real world, Hot Shot enthuses: he and Rodimus have finally beaten the game! He falls back into his seat, exhausted with pleasure. [[Kicker Jones|Kicker]] observes that they're more alike than he realized.

==Brackets==
{|class="wikitable" style="font-size:smaller;line-height:1;"
|-align="center"
|colspan="16"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|-align="center"
|colspan="8"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="8"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="4"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="4"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="4"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="4"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="2"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|colspan="2"|Jetfire + Ironhide
|colspan="2"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="2"|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|colspan="2"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="2"|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|Mirage + Tidal Wave
|Cliffjumper + Landmine
|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|Jetfire + Ironhide
|Scorponok + Alpha Q
|Inferno + Roadblock
|Six Shot + Shockblast
|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|Downshift + Prowl
|Galvatron + Starscream
|Cyclonus + Demolishor
|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|Superion Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (9)
* [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] (10)
* [[Cliffjumper (Energon)|Cliffjumper]] (13)
* [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] (14)
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (15)
* [[Wing Saber]] (16)
* [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] (17)
* [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] (18)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Inferno]] (21)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Roadblock]] (22)
* [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] (23)
* [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] (24)
* [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] (27)
* [[Superion Maximus]] (30)
* [[Bulkhead (Energon)|Bulkhead]] (31)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] (34)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)#Omega|Omega]] (35)
|c2=
* [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (1)
* [[Sixshot]] (2)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] (3)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (4)
* [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (5)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] (6)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Tidal Wave]] (11)
* [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]] (19)
* [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] (20)
* [[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] (25)
* [[Barricade (Energon)|Barricade]] (26)
* [[Constructicon Maximus]] (28)
* [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] (29)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (32)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (33)
|c3=
* [[Kicker Jones]] (37)
|c4=
* [[Nekomimi B]] (7)
* [[Nekomimi A]] (8)
* [[Alpha Quintesson]] (12)
* [[Unicron]] (36)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Angry face:''' Well, why are wasting our time watching them?! 
'''Sinister face:''' Good question. 
'''Hysterical face:''' I do so like to watch! 
'''Angry face:''' I think this is all a bunch of frivolous flub! Change the channel! 
'''Hysterical face:''' NOOOOOOOOO!
:—Alpha Q views the madness...and at least one of him likes what he sees.

"It almost looks like they're married!"
:—'''Snow Cat''' watches Prowl and Downshift squabble.

"Huh! There is ''no way'' I'm playing this childish little game. I'm going ''home''."
:—And '''Galvatron''' is taking his playthings with him!

"Gee, he sure is puny—''(Unicron fires massive laser)''—WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
:—'''Hot Shot''' eats his words.

==Other Notes==
===Lost in translation===
* In the ''Super Link'' version, Cliffjumper spouts his characteristic [[Engrish|Engrish]] line "Check it out, yo", which Landmine interprets as Japanese and, therefore, doesn't understand. The gag wouldn't have really worked for the dub.
* ''Super Link'' includes Scorponok proclaiming that Galvatron is still his master.
* The dub omits Six Shot marveling that the program manages to reproduce his brother's dim intellect; this is why Shockblast gestures angrily.
* Prowl and Downshift's argument is supposed to be over who would look cooler on top; the dub changes this to a random argument over... uh... something. This makes it much more random when later, they combine, both in their "top" modes.
* In ''Super Link'', Jetfire tells his partner Ironhide to relax, as Alpha Q is part of the program. Jetfire then calmly tells him that "by the way, I'm part of the program too." The dub omits the gag.
* Amazingly, all three of the combiner team leaders appear separated and in robot mode, and the groups finally get full animation of their combining sequences (previously hidden behind glowing balls of light.) The dub gets confused by this, having the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer say "Constructicon and Bruticus brought along a few of their friends" in reference to the combiners' limb components.
* The reason that Ironhide and Jetfire lose to the Shockblast brothers is that Six Shot tampered with the program. The dub makes it sound like Six Shot just fired some kind of weapon, in defiance of the animation.
* A gag that has Bulkhead declaring that the stubborn old man won't be in this episode is replaced in the dub by a lame line about "I didn't see that coming".
* Predictably, Hot Shot and Rodimus overcome Six Shot's virtual tampering through the power of [[burning justice|BURNING HEART OF FLAMING JUSTICE]] or some such. The dub changes it to "the power of powerlinking".
* In ''Super Link'', Demolishor and Snow Cat aren't afraid of the program Galvatron, and start insulting him, saying the original is much better. In the dub, they're afraid of him. The gag is further lost when it turns out that this ''is'' the real Galvatron.
* The dub has Optimus Prime saying "I AM YOUR LEADER!"... to the Decepticon combiners.
* The combiners' nature is briefly noted in ''Super Link'' when Prime tells the pair that "even ten isn't enough". The line doesn't appear in the dub.
* The dub omits the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer commenting that, though Optimus and Omega lost, it sure did look cool.
* The dub inserts a last line from Kicker that's supposed to be like, deep, or something. In ''Super Link'', he's just a bit appalled that Hot Shot has made time for this ridiculous game.

===Pain Count===
* "Uh?": 2
* Stock footage: 10, not including the made-up ones for Demolishor and Snow Cat.
* Let's do this: 2
* "Gimme a break": 1
* Take it Easy: 1

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*

===Continuity errors===
*

===Real-world references===
[[Image:Distribution FusionDance.JPG|right|200px|thumb|HA!]]
* Alpha Q notes that the training program is a bit like pro wrestling—you can't tell what's real and what's fake.
* After Demolishor and Snow Cat take a crack as powerlinking, the fake [[Commercial bumper|commercial bumper]] that follows their match depicts them doing the Fusion Dance from ''[[wikipedia:Dragonball_Z|Dragonball Z]].''

===Miscellaneous trivia===
* ''Cameos'': [[Energon Saber]], [[Skyblast (Energon)|Skyblast]], [[Strongarm (Energon)|Strongarm]], [[Signal Flare (Energon)|Signal Flare]], and [[Divebomb (Energon)|Divebomb]].
* In Japan, this episode was a special made to commemorate the 500th Transformers episode, which aired at a different time on a different day to the series norm, and did not feature an episode number in its title card. In America, it was just aired where it fell without fanfare, and hence came off as really, seriously, totally random.
* Not helping the situation any are the inclusion of several jokes based around aspects of the series which were cut for the ''Energon'' dub:
** For instance, the opening skit of the episode with Galvatron is a reference to the health-and-safety card that appears at the start of each ''Super Link'' episode, which features a still image of Optimus Prime and his voice telling the audience to sit back from the screen and watch in a well-lit room. In the ''Super Link'' version of this episode, Galvatron simply repeats Prime's standard dialogue word for word (with the gag being that he's in darkness, and the lights then ping on), while in ''Energon'', it has to be changed to Galvatron telling his men to turn the lights on, because American audiences hadn't seen the scene they were playing off.
**A large number of random fake ''Super Link'' [[commercial bumper]]s are included at the conclusion of most matches. Since the actual bumpers were not part of the ''Energon'' dub of the series, the "gag" of including them as part of the episode was essentially lost, since the audience had no idea what they were.
* Despite the lack of plot, the untranslatable gags, and the [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robot cat girl announcers]], there is a certain wit to the match-ups, such as having various present/past incarnations of the same guy fighting together, and Demolishor and Snow Cat walking in to find their old selves already defeated.
*This is the only robot-mode appearance of Bruticus Maximus's [[Barricade (Energon)|central component]]. ([[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] appears in "[[Galvatron Terror|Galvatron Terror]]", while [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] appears in "[[Spark (episode)|Spark]]".)
*The three Maximus combination sequences are entirely hand-drawn.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Transformer: Super Link'' — Volume 011 ([[Interchannel]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2008 — ''Transformers: Energon'' — The Ultimate Collection ([[Paramount Pictures|Paramount]])

[[Category:Energon episodes]]

Distribution

2010-06-05T23:15:08Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Featured characters */

{{episode|
|series=Energon
|series2=Superlink
|ep=43
|ep2=Special
|prev=Break Through
|next=The Omega Train
|title=Distribution
|japanese=必見! 夢の最強マッチ: 放映時間の異なる番外編
|romaji=Hikken! Yume no Saikyō Macchi: Hōei Jikan no Kotonaru Bangai Hen
|translation=A Must See! The Greatest Dream Match: Extra Episode with a Different Airtime
|image=E43 titlecard.jpg
|caption=This was where people started reevaluating their opinions of ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]]
|writer=[[Akira Okeya]]
|director=[[Kei'ichirō Kawaguchi]]
|animation studio=[[Actas]], [[Studio A-CAT]] (3D)
|airdate=[[November 3|3 November]] 2004 (Japanese) [[January 28]], 2005 (English)
|continuity=[[Unicron Trilogy]]
}}

'''A virtual training match pits Autobot against Autobot, Decepticon against Autobot, old bodies against new bodies, and commercial bumpers against plot advancement.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] ''strongly'' suggests to his men that, before they watch this, they turn on the lights.

In a huge arena, amid the cheers of thousands of spectators and waves of falling confetti, two [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robotic cat girls]] introduce the night's first combatants, [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] and [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]], vs. [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] and... Tidal Wave! And so begin the virtual games! It only takes Rodimus and Hot Shot a brief (off-screen) second to defeat their first opponents.

[[Alpha Quintesson|Alpha Q]] observes—it's some kind of virtual training program run by the [[Autobot]]s. At least one of his faces wants to change the channel.

The matches continue. [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] is suitably confused when Alpha Q comes out alongside [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]]. [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] and [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] squabble so much that the match is delayed, leaving [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] and [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] standing around with nothing to do; eventually the [[Decepticon]]s decide to try combining too, but just end up standing on each other's shoulders.

Rodimus and Hot Shot beat [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus]] and [[Wing Saber]]. Snow Cat and Demolishor win their match, probably because Downshift and Prowl tried powerlinking top-to-top; they're looking forward to the next one, wondering if there's prizes—maybe a power-up from Galvatron! Unfortunately, their next opponent ''is'' Galvatron, who's just finished off their old-body selves.

[[Image:Distribution SteamhammerBarricade.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Barricade's only appearance. Ever.]]
The combiners finish off [[Superion Maximus]], and take on Optimus Supreme, who stomps them. The [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] brothers take on Rodimus and Hot Shot; [[Six Shot]] gets annoyed with Shockblast and zaps him out of the program. The same trick fails against the Autobots, who are real and can overcome the program. Galvatron stomps off after beating Snow Cat and Demolishor, refusing to play the games any further.

The final match is Hot Shot and Rodimus against [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega]] and Optimus. Omega and Prime fly into the air, combine spectacularly and land... and Hot Shot and Rodimus are immediately declared the winners, as Optimus Supreme has landed outside of the ring. Optimus fumes that nobody told ''him'' about any stupid rules.

The winners get trophies, and the chance to battle a special guest. The ceiling opens up, and down comes… [[Unicron]]! A rather ''tiny'' Unicron. But tiny or not, he's still a force to be reckoned with. As they continue to battle, Alpha Q notes that perhaps the Transformers ''enjoy'' fighting.

And back in the real world, Hot Shot enthuses: he and Rodimus have finally beaten the game! He falls back into his seat, exhausted with pleasure. [[Kicker Jones|Kicker]] observes that they're more alike than he realized.

==Brackets==
{|class="wikitable" style="font-size:smaller;line-height:1;"
|-align="center"
|colspan="16"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|-align="center"
|colspan="8"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="8"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="4"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="4"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="4"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="4"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|colspan="2"|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|colspan="2"|Jetfire + Ironhide
|colspan="2"|Six Shot + Shockblast
|colspan="2"|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|colspan="2"|Galvatron + Starscream
|colspan="2"|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|-align="center"
|Rodimus + Hot Shot
|Mirage + Tidal Wave
|Cliffjumper + Landmine
|Optimus Prime + Wing Saber
|Jetfire + Ironhide
|Scorponok + Alpha Q
|Inferno + Roadblock
|Six Shot + Shockblast
|Snow Cat + Demolishor
|Downshift + Prowl
|Galvatron + Starscream
|Cyclonus + Demolishor
|Bruticus Maximus + Constructicon Maximus
|Superion Maximus
|colspan="2"|Optimus Prime + Omega Supreme
|}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]] (9)
* [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]] (10)
* [[Cliffjumper (Energon)|Cliffjumper]] (13)
* [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] (14)
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] (15)
* [[Wing Saber]] (16)
* [[Jetfire (Armada)|Jetfire]] (17)
* [[Ironhide (Energon)|Ironhide]] (18)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Inferno]] (21)
* [[Inferno (Energon)|Roadblock]] (22)
* [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] (23)
* [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]] (24)
* [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] (27)
* [[Superion Maximus]] (30)
* [[Bulkhead (Energon)|Bulkhead]] (31)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)|Omega Supreme]] (34)
* [[Omega Supreme (Energon)#Omega|Omega]] (35)
|c2=
* [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] (1)
* [[Six shot]] (2)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Snow Cat]] (3)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (4)
* [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] (5)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Mirage]] (6)
* [[Tidal Wave (Armada)|Tidal Wave]] (11)
* [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]] (19)
* [[Shockblast (Energon)|Shockblast]] (20)
* [[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] (25)
* [[Barricade (Energon)|Barricade]] (26)
* [[Constructicon Maximus]] (28)
* [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] (29)
* [[Cyclonus (Armada)|Cyclonus]] (32)
* [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] (33)
|c3=
* [[Kicker Jones]] (37)
|c4=
* [[Nekomimi B]] (7)
* [[Nekomimi A]] (8)
* [[Alpha Quintesson]] (12)
* [[Unicron]] (36)
}}

==Quotes==
'''Angry face:''' Well, why are wasting our time watching them?! 
'''Sinister face:''' Good question. 
'''Hysterical face:''' I do so like to watch! 
'''Angry face:''' I think this is all a bunch of frivolous flub! Change the channel! 
'''Hysterical face:''' NOOOOOOOOO!
:—Alpha Q views the madness...and at least one of him likes what he sees.

"It almost looks like they're married!"
:—'''Snow Cat''' watches Prowl and Downshift squabble.

"Huh! There is ''no way'' I'm playing this childish little game. I'm going ''home''."
:—And '''Galvatron''' is taking his playthings with him!

"Gee, he sure is puny—''(Unicron fires massive laser)''—WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
:—'''Hot Shot''' eats his words.

==Other Notes==
===Lost in translation===
* In the ''Super Link'' version, Cliffjumper spouts his characteristic [[Engrish|Engrish]] line "Check it out, yo", which Landmine interprets as Japanese and, therefore, doesn't understand. The gag wouldn't have really worked for the dub.
* ''Super Link'' includes Scorponok proclaiming that Galvatron is still his master.
* The dub omits Six Shot marveling that the program manages to reproduce his brother's dim intellect; this is why Shockblast gestures angrily.
* Prowl and Downshift's argument is supposed to be over who would look cooler on top; the dub changes this to a random argument over... uh... something. This makes it much more random when later, they combine, both in their "top" modes.
* In ''Super Link'', Jetfire tells his partner Ironhide to relax, as Alpha Q is part of the program. Jetfire then calmly tells him that "by the way, I'm part of the program too." The dub omits the gag.
* Amazingly, all three of the combiner team leaders appear separated and in robot mode, and the groups finally get full animation of their combining sequences (previously hidden behind glowing balls of light.) The dub gets confused by this, having the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer say "Constructicon and Bruticus brought along a few of their friends" in reference to the combiners' limb components.
* The reason that Ironhide and Jetfire lose to the Shockblast brothers is that Six Shot tampered with the program. The dub makes it sound like Six Shot just fired some kind of weapon, in defiance of the animation.
* A gag that has Bulkhead declaring that the stubborn old man won't be in this episode is replaced in the dub by a lame line about "I didn't see that coming".
* Predictably, Hot Shot and Rodimus overcome Six Shot's virtual tampering through the power of [[burning justice|BURNING HEART OF FLAMING JUSTICE]] or some such. The dub changes it to "the power of powerlinking".
* In ''Super Link'', Demolishor and Snow Cat aren't afraid of the program Galvatron, and start insulting him, saying the original is much better. In the dub, they're afraid of him. The gag is further lost when it turns out that this ''is'' the real Galvatron.
* The dub has Optimus Prime saying "I AM YOUR LEADER!"... to the Decepticon combiners.
* The combiners' nature is briefly noted in ''Super Link'' when Prime tells the pair that "even ten isn't enough". The line doesn't appear in the dub.
* The dub omits the horrifying robotic catgirl announcer commenting that, though Optimus and Omega lost, it sure did look cool.
* The dub inserts a last line from Kicker that's supposed to be like, deep, or something. In ''Super Link'', he's just a bit appalled that Hot Shot has made time for this ridiculous game.

===Pain Count===
* "Uh?": 2
* Stock footage: 10, not including the made-up ones for Demolishor and Snow Cat.
* Let's do this: 2
* "Gimme a break": 1
* Take it Easy: 1

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*

===Continuity errors===
*

===Real-world references===
[[Image:Distribution FusionDance.JPG|right|200px|thumb|HA!]]
* Alpha Q notes that the training program is a bit like pro wrestling—you can't tell what's real and what's fake.
* After Demolishor and Snow Cat take a crack as powerlinking, the fake [[Commercial bumper|commercial bumper]] that follows their match depicts them doing the Fusion Dance from ''[[wikipedia:Dragonball_Z|Dragonball Z]].''

===Miscellaneous trivia===
* ''Cameos'': [[Energon Saber]], [[Skyblast (Energon)|Skyblast]], [[Strongarm (Energon)|Strongarm]], [[Signal Flare (Energon)|Signal Flare]], and [[Divebomb (Energon)|Divebomb]].
* In Japan, this episode was a special made to commemorate the 500th Transformers episode, which aired at a different time on a different day to the series norm, and did not feature an episode number in its title card. In America, it was just aired where it fell without fanfare, and hence came off as really, seriously, totally random.
* Not helping the situation any are the inclusion of several jokes based around aspects of the series which were cut for the ''Energon'' dub:
** For instance, the opening skit of the episode with Galvatron is a reference to the health-and-safety card that appears at the start of each ''Super Link'' episode, which features a still image of Optimus Prime and his voice telling the audience to sit back from the screen and watch in a well-lit room. In the ''Super Link'' version of this episode, Galvatron simply repeats Prime's standard dialogue word for word (with the gag being that he's in darkness, and the lights then ping on), while in ''Energon'', it has to be changed to Galvatron telling his men to turn the lights on, because American audiences hadn't seen the scene they were playing off.
**A large number of random fake ''Super Link'' [[commercial bumper]]s are included at the conclusion of most matches. Since the actual bumpers were not part of the ''Energon'' dub of the series, the "gag" of including them as part of the episode was essentially lost, since the audience had no idea what they were.
* Despite the lack of plot, the untranslatable gags, and the [[Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B|horrifying robot cat girl announcers]], there is a certain wit to the match-ups, such as having various present/past incarnations of the same guy fighting together, and Demolishor and Snow Cat walking in to find their old selves already defeated.
*This is the only robot-mode appearance of Bruticus Maximus's [[Barricade (Energon)|central component]]. ([[Steamhammer (Energon)|Steamhammer]] appears in "[[Galvatron Terror|Galvatron Terror]]", while [[Storm Jet (Energon)|Storm Jet]] appears in "[[Spark (episode)|Spark]]".)
*The three Maximus combination sequences are entirely hand-drawn.

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Transformer: Super Link'' — Volume 011 ([[Interchannel]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2008 — ''Transformers: Energon'' — The Ultimate Collection ([[Paramount Pictures|Paramount]])

[[Category:Energon episodes]]

Transformers (2010 toyline)

2010-05-09T22:47:36Z

Crystallskullguy: /* Voyager */

{{disambig3|Transformers}}
'''Transformers''' is a toyline launched in [[2010]] with a broader scope, with the intention to reinvent the line as one that isn't specifically tied to the [[live-action film]], though it may contain characters from it. A general celebration of Transformers, it also includes the [[Hunt for the Decepticons]] promotion.

Its flagrant disregard for continuity organization that blurs the line between what is Movie and what is Not infuriates and bewilders us.

==Toyline==
===Action figures "main line"===
====Legends Class====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Ravage (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Ravage]]
*[[Rampage (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Rampage]]
*[[Long Haul (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Long Haul]]
*[[Sandstorm (TF 2010)|Sandstorm]] (Classics [[Beachcomber (G1)#G1 Series|Beachcomber]] redeco)
*[[Override (TF 2010)|Override]] (ROTF [[Sideways (ROTF)#Legends Class toys|Sideways]] redeco)
*[[Hound (G1)|Tracker Hound]] (Classics [[Hound (G1)#Classic Series|Autobot Hound]] redeco)
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Fireburst Optimus Prime]] (redeco)
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Cyberfire Bumblebee]] (redeco)
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Scouts====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Hubcap (TF 2010)|Hubcap]] (Autobot muscle car)
*[[Brimstone (TF 2010)|Brimstone]] (Decepticon chopper cycle)
*[[Crankstart]] (Decepticon Dune Runner redeco)
*[[Backfire (TF 2010)|Backfire]] (Autobot Knock-Out redeco)
*[[Insecticon (Movie)|Insecticon]] (insect thing from movie)
*[[Breacher]] (SWAT vehicle who fits on Sea Spray)
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Deluxe====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Ironhide (Movie)#Transformers (2010)|Ironhide]] w/ drone unit
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Blade Bumblebee]] (all new)
*[[Jetblade]] (redeco of [[Dirge (ROTF)|Dirge]])
*[[Ravage (ROTF)|Sea Attack Ravage]]
*[[Sideswipe (ROTF)#Transformers (2010)|Sidearm Sideswipe]] (new mold with guns instead of swords)
*[[Hailstorm (TF 2010)|Hailstorm]] (he's [[Mindset]])
*[[Elita-1 (ROTF)|Elita-1]] ([[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia]] redeco, instructions for combination will be online)
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Voyager====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Seaspray]]
*[[Ratchet (Movie)#Transformers (2010)|Night Ops Ratchet]] (redeco)
*[[Payload (TF 2010)|Payload]] (yellow redeco of [[Long Haul (ROTF)|Long Haul]])
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Blades Optimus Prime]] (new mold with [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]])
*[[Banzai-Tron (TF 2010)|Banzai-Tron]] (redeco of [[Bludgeon (ROTF)|Bludgeon]])
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Leader====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Starscream (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Starscream]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Optimus Prime]] with hooks and battle damage and mouth face
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Human Alliance====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] w/ [[William Lennox|Lennox]] (shield gun becomes motorcycle)
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Battle Ops Bumblebee====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Battle Ops Bumblebee]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Activators====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Megatron (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Megatron]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Optimus Prime]]
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Bumblebee]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Powerbots====
'''Future waves'''
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|Stealth Bumblebee]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Transformers (2010)|??? Optimus Prime]]
{{comingsoontoy}}

===Roleplay===
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] Cyber Sword
{{comingsoontoy}}

===Speed Stars/Action Fleet<ref>The [[Robot Powered Machines]] range is being renamed, but while the Toy Fair ''Transformers'' press release rechristened the line "Action Fleet", the packaging at Toy Fair featured the name "Speed Stars". What the final name will turn out to be is uncertain at this time.</ref>===
{{stub}}

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://toyfair10.asmzine.com/gallery/hasbro/hasbro-transformers-press-kit/index.html ASMZine.com's Toy Fair 2010 Hasbro Transformers press kit gallery]
*[http://toyfair10.asmzine.com/gallery/hasbro/hasbro-transformers/index.html ASMZine.com's Toy Fair 2010 Transformers booth gallery]

[[Category:Live-action film series]]
[[Category:Toys]]

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-05-09T22:39:44Z

Crystallskullguy:

i like sexy fembots

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-05-09T22:34:23Z

Crystallskullguy:

i like chicks with really big asses.

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-05-09T22:34:02Z

Crystallskullguy:

[[Image:Example.jpg]]i like chicks with really big asses.

User:Crystallskullguy

2010-05-09T01:48:50Z

Crystallskullguy: New page: hey everyone

hey everyone