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Omega Supreme (G1)

2024-10-30T09:29:03Z

Derik: /* 2005 IDW continuity */ Omega Spreem appearance.

{{factions|autobot|hofsilver}}
{{Disambig3|Omega Supreme}}
: ''Omega Supreme is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[File:StudioOxOmegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Favorite punctuation mark: colon.]]

'''Omega Supreme''' is one of the largest Autobots, and perhaps the most powerful. He isn't much for words; his mountainous frame and vast firepower tend to do the talking for him. He is the last line of the Autobot defense, and this responsibility gives him a solemn, even grim personality - for he knows that if a battle calls for his involvement, the rest of his team must have already fallen. This titanic last survivor of the [[Guardian robot]]s instills fear and panic into the [[spark]]s of [[Decepticon]]s foolhardy enough to stand against him in battle.

Except [[Buzzsaw (G1)|Buzzsaw]]. Kill that little guy, it just makes him angry.

{{bigquote|I am the guardian of the gates... the junction of your destruction... the laser lighting the way to your doom... the planner of your obsolescence... the furnace that fires your demise... I am the number you cannot compute, Decepticon.|Omega Supreme|"[[Command Performances!]]"}}

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Jack Angel]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese), [[Masashi Ebara]] (Japanese, ''2010'')|[[Yang Wenyuan]] (Mandarin), [[Henry Djanik]] (European French), [[Georges Atlas]] (European French, "The God Gambit"), [[Carlos Agosti]] (American Spanish), [[Gernot Duda]] (German, "The Big Broadcast of 2006"), [[Gerd Rigauer]] (German, "The Golden Lagoon" ''Generation 2'' dub), [[Garcia Neto]] (Portuguese), [[Marcos Miranda]] (Portuguese, "The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1 & 2"), [[Ettore Zuim]] (Portuguese, "War Dawn")}}

[[File:Omegadefendscrystalcity.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|How his base ends up on the planets his rocket flies to is just another of those eternal mysteries of life.]]
Millions of years ago, Omega Supreme was a member of the legendary [[Guardian robot]]s, and was charged with defending [[Crystal City]], the most spectacular city on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. He befriended the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], the city's creators. However, as it would happen, the Constructicons were attacked by [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]'s [[Robosmasher]] and converted into [[Decepticon]]s. The now-evil Constructicons convinced Omega to leave his post to help defend the capital city, and promised to look after the city in his stead. When he left, they demolished the Crystal City, to Omega Supreme's horror. He hunted them down, trapping them in a pit, and tried to reverse the reprogramming done by the Robo-Smasher. Though he appeared to be successful, the programming was irreversible, and Megatron had given the Constructicons a new combined form named [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]]. The treacherous Constructicons lured Omega into an ambush and in their new form attempted to use the Smasher to convert him into a Decepticon, but he destroyed the machine and they fled before he recovered from the attack.

{{Quote|I lived, but changed. Since then, I feel only hate for the Constructicons.}}

[[File:Robo-Smasher and Omega Supreme.jpg|thumb|upright=1.45|Et tu, Robo-Smasher?]]
Some time after these events transpired—after the launch of the [[Ark (G1)|Autobot]] and [[Nemesis (G1)|Decepticon starships]]—the Constructicons left Cybertron in a starship and tried to locate the missing Megatron. Omega Supreme pursued them, "for millions of years, across the galaxies"; eventually, the Constructicons rejoined Megatron on [[Earth]], and Omega Supreme followed them there, still seeking revenge. {{storylink|The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme}}

[[File:Omegasupreme astrotrain.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.15|A shuttle in the hand is worth two on the track.]]
For the most part, he acted as inter-planetary transport for the Autobots, as well as their last line of defense. While he was preparing for a round of target practice, Omega lost contact with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] when [[Blaster (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Blaster]] began broadcasting the music from a concert over the Autobot communications frequencies. The interference resulted in Megatron getting away clean with the [[Voltronic Galaxer]], which necessitated a trip to the [[Moon (moon)|Moon]] to retrieve it. Omega took Optimus, [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Spike Witwicky]] and [[Carly (G1)|Carly]]. There, he got to battle [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], who taunted him for being outdated technology, but changed his tune after Omega triumphed. {{storylink|Blaster Blues}} When the Decepticons found a pool of [[electrum]], rendering them invulnerable, they attacked Omega Supreme. His weapons had no effect on them, and the titan fell. Later the Autobots got the opportunity for payback when they located the electrum pool and used it themselves, gaining the advantage as the Decepticons' electrum coating wore off. {{storylink|The Golden Lagoon (episode)|The Golden Lagoon}}

After [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]] crashed on [[Titan (moon)|Titan]], Omega carried [[Perceptor (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Perceptor]] and [[Jazz (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Jazz]] there on a rescue mission. Unfortunately he just barely had enough energy to land, and was left teetering on the edge of a cliff overhanging a lake of deadly liquid. The moon was fortunately rich in [[energy crystal]]s, and Perceptor was able to use them to repower Omega. The explosion of the crystal deposit caused the island they were on to begin to disintegrate, so Omega Supreme used his base mode to transport everyone across to safety. {{storylink|The God Gambit}}

[[File:Secretomegachatinwoods.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Storytime: informative.]]
Omega Surpreme finally got his chance at revenge when the Constructicons started mining an asteroid that turned out to be the egg of an [[Asteroid bird alien|strange creature]]. Omega left the creature to its own devices, which would have resulted in it devouring [[San Francisco]]. However, Optimus Prime convinced Omega to lead the creature back to its asteroid, which would sustain it. Omega lost his chance at revenge, but he did his duty. {{storylink|The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme}}

After the energy pest [[Kremzeek]] took out most of the Autobots, Omega Supreme transported the survivors of his attack to [[Japan]] in an attempt to track down the creature. When they arrived, they were immediately beset by Kremzeek, however the Autobots remembered that Omega had not been coated with the insulating compound that was protecting them. Omega took to the air, but Kremzeek managed to reach him anyway, and he quickly crashed onto the Japanese beach. [[Bumblebee (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Bumblebee]] promised they'd fix him up as soon as possible. {{storylink|Kremzeek!}}

The Autobots used Omega Supreme to follow the Decepticons back to Cybertron when Megatron intended to use [[Vector Sigma]] to create a new group of Decepticon warriors. After failing to stop the Decepticons from creating the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]], {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1}} the Autobots created a new team of their own to counter the new threat, the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]]. As Omega Supreme escaped Cybertron, he was hit by weapons fire from the [[Centurion droid]]s, and once he safely disembarked his passengers on Earth, he catastrophically exploded.

[[File:KtVS2 Omega Supreme in pieces.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.4|Exploding: painful.]]
[[Ratchet (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Ratchet]], [[Wheeljack (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Wheeljack]] and [[Sparkplug Witwicky]] connected Omega Supreme's mind to the [[Ark (G1)|''Ark'']]'s life support unit while they set about putting the giant back together. The arrogant Aerialbots, unimpressed with both the Autobots and the humans they protected, refused to help their comrades in defeating the Decepticons until their group leader [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] showed them how Sparkplug was able to disregard his fatigue and continue repairing Omega Supreme simply because of his concern for a friend's well being. Soon afterwards, the Aerialbots were facing defeat as [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] at the hands of the Stunticon combined form, [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]], when the newly repaired Omega Supreme suddenly appeared and helped them defeat the combiner and send the Decepticons packing. {{storylink|The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2}}

[[File:BigBroadcast Omega Supreme attacked in rocket mode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|Enemy fire: tickles.]]
He transported the Autobots and the Aerialbots back to Cybertron when they detected strange energy readings emanating from the planet. The trip expended his energy so he was forced to sit out the mission. While the Autobots dealt with a [[Kronosphere|time machine]] sending the Aerialbots to the past, the Decepticons reactivated one of Omega's fellow Guardian Robots. After the Aerialbots returned from their trip through time, Silverbolt handed over some power packs they had taken from the Cybertron's Golden Age to refuel Omega. {{storylink|War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn}}

After the coming of [[Unicron/Generation 1|Unicron]], his space transport role was fulfilled by [[Sky Lynx (G1)|Sky Lynx]], though he still carried out occasional missions. He transported several Autobots to [[Junkion (planet)|Junkion]] to investigate the strange behaviour of the [[Junkion (species)|Junkions]]. He was shot down by [[Cyclonus (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Cyclonus]], [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] and the [[Sweep (G1)|Sweeps]] crashing the Autobots on an asteroid. After being repaired Omega quickly turned the tide of the battle. Upon arriving on Junkion, Omega again battled the Decepticons. He was knocked down by a blast from [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]]'s cannon mode, but recovered and battled the Decepticons until Blaster asked him to bring him to altitude to counter the Quintesson signals. {{storylink|The Big Broadcast of 2006 (episode)|The Big Broadcast of 2006}}

He was off on an undescribed mission when [[Grimlock (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Grimlock]] acquired super-intelligence. {{storylink|Grimlock's New Brain}}

====Ask Vector Prime====
Omega Supreme discovered [[Protectobot (G1)|five survivors]] on the wreckage of the ancient colony world, [[Archon]]. He brought them back to Earth, where they were eventually revived by an infusion of energon from the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]]. They would later become known as the Protectobots. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/09/21}}

====Japanese cartoon continuity====
=====''The Battle of the Star Gate''=====
Omega Supreme (at least, his rocket component) was amongst the Autobots who accompanied Optimus into Earth orbit to stop Megatron’s take-over of the ''[[Trigger]]''. They were able to repel the Decepticons from the space station in short order. {{storylink|First Contact (Star Gate)|First Contact}}

Omega Supreme's rocket component was amongst the Autobots who once more confronted Megatron and his Decepticons at the ''Trigger'' in Earth orbit. When Starscream combined himself with the ''Trigger'' to create a powerful new body for himself, Omega Supreme had to contend with the volley of asteroids thrown towards both Autobots and Decepticons from Starscream’s star gate. He was then almost sucked into a portal to a black hole when Starscream neared defeat, but was instead sent plummeting down to Earth when Optimus and Megatron worked together to defeat Starscream. {{storylink|The Battle of the Star Gate}}

=====''MPG'' toy bios=====
By [[2011]], Omega Supreme had retired from his role as Autobot transport for a career pivot into space exploration. The [[Trainbot]]s inherited the job. {{storylink|Shouki#MPG|''MPG'' Shouki bio}}

=====''Unite Warriors''=====
When the Constructicons tricked [[Grapple (G1)|Grapple]] into helping them build a new Crystal City on Earth, Omega Supreme seemingly set aside his enmity against the team in favor of aiding in the reconstruction of his former home. {{storylink|Crystal City Reconstruction Project!}}

=====Metrowars=====
After a devastating battle with the [[Decepticon]]s during an energy crisis, Omega Supreme was forced to use [[Guardian robot]] components as spare parts for his own body. He apologized to [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] for his failure in defending him, but the city-bot took it in stride. When [[Metrotitan (G1)|Metrotitan]] and the Decepticons attacked again, the rebuilt Metroplex transformed into [[robot mode]] and Omega manned one of his cannons. After Omega Supreme pointed out that Metrotitan was reprogrammed by the [[Nine Great Demon Generals]], Metrotitan rejected the rumor, leading Metroplex to definitively banish the traitor from the Autobots. With the Autobots' combined efforts, the Decepticons were sent fleeing. {{storylink|Metrowars}}

=====''Legends'' comic=====
While recapping Metroplex's life story to [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] and [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] in the [[Legends World|Legends Universe]], [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]] included the time he battled Metrotitan alongside Omega Supreme. {{storylink|LG14 Ultra Magnus Prologue#The Mysterious Knowledgeable Grandpa Chapter|The Mysterious Knowledgeable Grandpa Chapter}}

=====''Generations Selects Special Comic''=====
In [[2050]], Omega Supreme initially supported the human efforts to harvest [[Angolmois Energy]] on Earth. It was used, in part, to create a new breed of robots known as [[Selector]]s. {{storylink|Volcanicus comic 1}} However, when the Selectors demanded freedom to make their own choices, Omega Supreme joined Autobots and Decepticons in opposing human control of the Selectors. {{storylink|Volcanicus comic 2}}

====''The Story of Super Robot Lifeforms: The Transformers''====
Omega Supreme was deployed alongside [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] and [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] by [[Hot Rod (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Rodimus Prime]] to defend the [[Prime Energy Tower]] of planet [[Feminia]] from the Decepticons. Together, the three giant Autobots were a match for [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]], [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]], and [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]]. Unfortunately, [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]] had a trump card ready: [[Predaking (G1)|Predaking]]. With a single blow from his fist, Predaking toppled Omega Supreme, Defensor, and Superion. {{storylink|The Story of Super Robot Lifeforms: The Transformers issue 5|The Story of Super Robot Lifeforms: The Transformers #5}}

====Madman ''The Transformers'' comic====
In the year [[2001]], the Decepticons had managed to conquer Cybertron completely. Omega Supreme aided in the Autobots' exodus of the planet, though he came under heavy enemy fire during this mission. {{storylink|The Transformers (Madman)|The Transformers}}

====''The Animated Movie''====
[[File:TAM TPB Gestalt Fight.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Plot hole: filled in.]]
During the [[Battle of Autobot City]] in [[2005]], Omega Supreme was unable to come to the aid of the stricken city, as he was defending [[Ark (G1)|Autobot Headquarters]] alongside [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] and [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] against an attack by Menasor and Bruticus. {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie|The Animated Movie trade paperback}}

====''Wings Universe''====
Nine million years ago, Omega Supreme was introduced to the rest of the Constructicons by [[Hauler]], while the team was still in the process of building Crystal City. {{storylink|Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 42|Hauler's ''Wings of Honor'' profile}}
{{--}}

===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics====
{{noteukonly}}
[[File:Omega comics.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.1|I... AM DARKWING DUCK!]]
Soon after [[Grapple (G1)|Grapple]] was brought online on Earth, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] had a secret project in mind for the architect: {{storylink|Rock and Roll-Out!}} the construction of Omega Supreme. Designed to be the Autobots' last line of defense and given life by Prime's [[Matrix of Leadership|Creation Matrix]], Omega Supreme was unveiled in front of the Autobot rank and file. With Omega completed, they were now free to leave the base en masse to attack the Decepticons, an advantage Optimus Prime utilized immediately. As the Autobots attacked the [[Wyoming base|Decepticon headquarters]], [[Megatron (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Megatron]], unaware of Omega Supreme's birth, took [[Skywarp (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Skywarp]], [[Starscream (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Starscream]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Thundercracker]], [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]], [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]], [[Buzzsaw (G1)|Buzzsaw]], and [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] with him to attack the Ark, which he believed to be unguarded. At first Megatron underestimated the tank and rocket ship sitting outside their target, even when the tank one-shotted Skywarp with its [[laser cannon]], but then Omega Supreme transformed to robot mode and within moments destroyed all of them one by one without pause. Only Laserbeak managed to escape with a wounded Megatron back to the Decepticons. {{storylink|Command Performances!}}

''Early on in the first [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] encounter, the Autobots openly talked about siccing Omega Supreme on the Decepticons. And then '''never did so''', despite it being a smart idea and knowing it was an option.'' {{storylink|Target: 2006}} ''Later, believing that Optimus Prime was dead thanks a plan involving a [[facsimile construct]], Omega attended a funeral for the Autobot leader before Prime was returned to them from [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] via the [[space bridge]].'' {{storylink|Resurrection!}}

[[File:Omegasupreme-blasterandgrimlock.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Size: indeterminate.]]
Though Omega Supreme continued to guard the Ark, he didn't seem to stay [[Scale|quite as huge]] as he used to be. He could soon fit into the Ark, where watched with other Autobots as [[Ratchet (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ratchet]] tried to repair Optimus Prime, who had fallen in battle. Prime was declared irreparable, and Omega Supreme helped install a remote-control system for the Ark's defenses so all Autobots could attend their leader's funeral. During the ceremony, Omega placed Optimus's body in his final resting place, a spaceship casket which they shot into space. Upon the Autobots' return to the Ark, they found that its defenses would not shut down; in their absence, a villainous [[Mechanic|human]] had infiltrated their base and disabled the newly installed remote-control system. Ratchet, who had stayed behind, managed to defeat the intruder, and promised to repair all damaged Autobots within the following couple of days. {{storylink|Funeral for a Friend!}} The funeral motivated Omega to work even harder so as to not let Optimus Prime down. He defended the Ark against an assault by [[Cobra]] aircraft and [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]]. [[Serpentor]] then blew up Dirge as a demonstration of Cobra's peaceful intent and Omega ceased fire. {{storylink|Ashes, Ashes...}} [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] and Omega cemented their alliance with [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] and Cobra as the Decepticons took control of [[Power Station Alpha]]. {{storylink|...All Fall Down!}}

Omega entered the Ark again when he and other high-ranking Autobots assembled to nominate Prime's replacement, and he suggested courage as a valuable trait for their imaginary candidate. When [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]] attacked, the Decepticon carpeted the entrance to the Ark with sonic scrambler mines, disabling Omega and the other Autobots within; Omega was thus unable to square off against the giant. Fortunately, they were rescued by [[Grimlock (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Grimlock]] and the other [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]], a turn of events that persuaded him, along with the other Autobots, to support Grimlock as their new leader. {{storylink|King of the Hill!}} He later changed his mind and was amongst the Autobots that approached the deserter Blaster to take over the leadership. {{storylink|Spacehikers!}} To settle the issue, Omega Supreme acted as a sort of Master of Ceremonies when Blaster and Grimlock were due to fight it out for Autobot leadership on the [[Moon (moon)|moon]]. He had shrunk more by then, but once [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]'s Decepticons surprise-attacked them, he seemed bigger again. Omega survived the battle seemingly uninjured. {{storylink|Totaled!}}

[[File:Buzzsawyikes4.jpg|left|upright=1.4|thumb|It: Over 9000.]]
Omega traveled with the rest of the Autobots to the [[Arctic]] to investigate a distress signal sent by [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]]. Soon, they were ambushed by two Decepticon armies, and Buzzsaw [[Mortar cannon|cannon-blasted]] Omega Supreme—and Omega actually seemed to be getting knocked over. This was all revealed as a plot by Starscream to divert both factions away from his attempts to absorb the powers of the [[Underbase]]. Omega traveled to [[Buenos Aires]] as part of a team led jointly by [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Soundwave (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Soundwave]]. When Fortress Maximus was in danger, he jumped to his rescue—however, the Underbase-powered Starscream, recalling his earlier defeat at Omega's hands, gleefully killed him. {{storylink|Dark Star}} {{storylink|Fallen Star!}}

Ratchet was tormented by his inability to repair all of the Autobots under his care, to the extent that the medic started to have nightmares about Omega Supreme and various other deactivated Autobots reviving as [[zombie]]s to kill him for his failures. Ratchet's nightmares came true for a short while, when the Decepticon [[Sports Car Patrol]] managed to infiltrate the Ark and took control of the damaged Autobots' bodies to torment him. When this failed to make Ratchet snap completely, the Decepticons' plan was abandoned and Omega Supreme was shut down once more. {{storylink|Back from the Dead}}

''Omega was repaired in time for the [[Transformer]]s' [[1989]] [[Christmas]] party, where he joined [[Kup (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Kup]] and Grimlock behind the sofa in scowling at [[Dreadwind (G1)|Dreadwind]] and [[Darkwing (G1)|Darkwing]].'' {{storylink|:File:MarvelUK-250.jpg|''The Transformers'' #250 cover}}

=====The Big Broadcast of 2006=====
{{NoteMarvelBB2006}}
[[File:Omega supreme big broadcast of 2006.jpg|thumb|upright=0.9]]
In an alternate future of [[2006]], Omega Supreme flew a group of Autobots to [[Junkion (planet)|Junkion]] to investigate some strange goings-on there. Several aliens had been affected by a subliminal broadcast emanating from the planet, causing them to gather in its orbit and duke it out between themselves. Omega Supreme fought off several of the alien spacecrafts that were attacking his fellow Autobots. He also battled with "[[Scourge (G1)|Sweeps]]" and helped disrupt the [[Quintesson]] hypnosis signal by flying [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] into the air to broadcast soothing music. {{storylink|The Big Broadcast of 2006 (issue)|The Big Broadcast of 2006}}
{{-}}

====''Regeneration One''====
{{NoteRG1}}
[[File:Omega supreme destiny.jpg|thumb|left|upright=0.7|Return: EPIC.]]
When [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]]'s [[Blitz Engine]]s were unleashed on the surface of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Omega Supreme was activated by [[Prowl (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Prowl]] to take care of the menacing pests. Soundwave ordered [[Monstructor (G1)|Monstructor]] to take him out with prejudice. {{storylink|Destiny, Part Four}} Omega proved more than capable of resisting the gestalt, however; as [[Hot Rod (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Rodimus Prime]] defeated Bludgeon and the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] (under the command of Starscream) destroyed the ''[[Warworld]]'', Omega blasted Monstructor into many little bits. {{storylink|Destiny, Part Five}}
{{-}}

===Dreamwave ''Generation One'' continuity===
[[File:TheOmegaEffect OmegaSupreme Sunstorm Starscream.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Starscream's pants: soiled]]
Some time after the departure of the Ark, Omega Supreme and [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] were part of one of the last Autobot space programs, tasked with containing the expansion of the Decepticons to other worlds and, more importantly, to find [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and the crew of the Ark. The two eventually parted ways with the other members of the operation, [[Countdown (G1)|Countdown]] and [[Groundshaker (G1)|Groundshaker]], in order to investigate a beacon emanating from the [[Solar System|Sol System]]. {{storylink|Destined for Nothing}} Jetfire and Omega detected what they thought was the energy signature of the Ark, only to be attacked by [[Scourge (G1)|a mysterious, powerful assailant]] and ultimately ended up buried under Antarctica on Earth. {{Storylink|Original Sin}} Millions of years later, Jetfire remotely reactivated Omega Supreme in an attempt to defeat the powerful and insane [[Sunstorm (G1)|Sunstorm]]. Though Omega Supreme managed to capture the weakened Sunstorm thanks to Ratchet's energy siphon, Starscream destroyed the device to enable his own escape, reactivating Sunstorm and truly commencing the battle between the two powerhouses. Omega was ultimately successful in overpowering Sunstorm in a straight fight, but when he retracted his damaged visor in order to examine his quarry, Sunstorm blasted him right in the face with a burst of solar radiation, instantly knocking him off line. {{Storylink|The Omega Effect}} Omega rebooted as [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]], [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]], and Jetfire came upon him, and explained what had transpired in his confrontation against Sunstorm to them. {{Storylink|Original Sin}} While he was recuperating from his damage, he shared Cliffjumper's concerns over the danger their friends were in and how useless they felt. {{Storylink|Atonement}} Omega later recovered and helped the Autobots in building [[Autobot City (G1)|Autobot City]]. {{Storylink|The Route of All Evil}}
{{-}}

===''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''===
[[File:ArtofWar3 OmegaSupreme Sixshot Astrotrain.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1|Characteristic speech pattern: averted.]]
Omega Supreme served as security during an Autobot peace ceremony on Cybertron. When [[Serpentor|Serpent O.R.]]'s forces attacked, he transformed and shot down [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], but soon found himself surrounded by [[Predaking (G1)|Predaking]], [[Piranacon (G1)|Piranacon]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]]. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 3|The Art of War #3}} The combined might of the three giants was too much for Omega, who was defeated and almost crushed a [[Optimus Prime's rescuees|civilian]] as he fell to the ground. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 4|The Art of War #4}}

Following the defeat of Serpent O.R. and the Decepticon army, Omega Supreme helped repair damaged buildings in [[Capitol City]]. {{storylink|The Art of War issue 5|The Art of War #5}}
{{-}}

===2005 IDW continuity===
* ''First Appearance:'' [[Stormbringer issue 1|''Stormbringer'' #1]] (cameo); [[Spotlight: Optimus Prime]] (full)
[[File:Unicron-3-OmegaSentinelsTogether.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Apocalypse: Now.]]
Leader of the [[Guardian robot|Omega Sentinels]], Omega Supreme was an extremely ancient Transformer, hailing from the time of the [[Knights of Cybertron]] in the planet's largely-forgotten past. Following the formation of the [[Thirteen]], the bestial [[Shockwave (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Onyx Prime]] masterminded a Cybertronian [[expansion]] across the universe. Bound by honor to follow the will of the [[Prime (rank)|Primes]], Supreme led his Sentinels in making first contact with the planet [[Antilla]], laying waste to the planet at Onyx's command and driving the [[Antillan]]s to the brink of extinction. In retaliation, the Antillans constructed [[Talisman (G1)|a machine]] that eventually warped their lifeless world into [[Unicron/Generation 1|Unicron]], much to Omega's regret and horror. {{storylink|The Falling, Interlude: The First Who Was Named|The First Who Was Named}} {{storylink|Stranger Eons}} {{storylink|Our Finest}}

[[File:Monstructor and Omega Supreme Primus All Good Things.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4]]
During the [[First Cybertronian Civil War]], Omega served as the guardian of the subterranean [[Crystal City]], protecting a lone [[Titan (group)|Titan]] that lay slumbering beneath the city's foundations. When war erupted between the Cybertronians on the surface, Omega abstained from entering the conflict, holding true to his vigil. Eventually, a leader named [[Nova Prime]] brought the war to an end, and soon discovered Crystal City and Omega while searching for ways to bring peace and prosperity back to the planet. Approving of his goals, Omega allied with him and helped raise Crystal City back to the surface, but he did not entirely trust Nova and his plans to spread his influence to other worlds, and kept [[Metrotitan (G1)|Metrotitan]]'s existence a secret. {{storylink|Primus: All Good Things|All Good Things}} During this time, Omega was an expert on metaphysics who would teach his fellow Cybertronians on the subject: [[Tailgate (G1)|Tailgate]] claimed to have studied under him, {{storylink|How Ratchet Got His Hands Back}} and he was likely the namesake of the thought experiment known as "Omega's Conundrum". {{storylink|Omega's Conundrum}} Eventually, Omega's caution proved warranted when [[Dai Atlas (G1)|Dai Atlas]] alerted him to the fact that Nova Prime and his scientist [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] had created the horrific combiner, [[Monstructor (G1)|Monstructor]]—the first step towards their goal of eliminating all free will. Omega attacked the beast and battled with it while Nova Prime and his followers departed on their mission of conquest aboard the first [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], and eventually subdued it. {{storylink|Primus: All Good Things|All Good Things}} {{storylink|Shockwaves}}

[[File:OmegaSupreme SpotlightPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Privacy: Requested. Expurgation: Imminent.]]
With Nova Prime's departure and the destruction of Crystal City, Omega Supreme handed the duty of guarding Metrotitan over to Dai Atlas, {{storylink|Primus: All Good Things|All Good Things}} sealed Monstructor in a dimensionally-displaced prison, {{Storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}} and withdrew to the remote [[Grav-Haraan glacier]] to stand watch for Nova, intending to destroy him on his return. {{storylink|Primacy issue 3|Primacy #3}} Millions of years later he was discovered by [[Optimus Prime (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Optimus Prime]] who, after proving to be [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] by his possession of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], told him Nova had been lost in space long ago. Relieved of his duties, Omega agreed to follow the new Matrix-bearer back to civilization. {{storylink|Primacy issue 1|Primacy #1}} He had trouble adapting to society after his years of solitary vigilance, however, and merely took on a similar role: silently guarding Optimus Prime's quarters. {{storylink|Primacy issue 2|Primacy #2}} When the Decepticons attacked Iacon, Optimus Prime ordered Omega Supreme into battle, and although he was hesitant to go to war against fellow Cybertronians, he complied after recognizing Optimus's potential for greatness and the Decepticons' similarities to Nova Prime. The Decepticons tried keep him from joining the battle with a strategic bombardment, {{storylink|Primacy issue 3|Primacy #3}} but he was saved by [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]]'s force field and went on to fight them. During the battle he took out the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]], preventing them from interfering with Optimus's battle with [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Primacy issue 4|Primacy #4}}

At some point in the war, Omega Supreme left Cybertron behind and entered seclusion in a specially-shielded artificial asteroid within the [[Muta-Gaath Nebula]]. His existence remained known to the Transformers on Cybertron and he was nominally aligned with the Autobots, though in an advisory capacity, not participating in the combat itself. {{storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}} When [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] threatened to destroy the planet, however, Omega joined the allied forces of the Autobots and Decepticons to stop him, alongside Optimus Prime, Megatron, and [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]]. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 1|Stormbringer #1}}

[[File:Omega Supreme Spotlight Hardhead.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4]]
Centuries later, Optimus Prime came to Omega's asteroid to consult the ancient sentinel on Nova Prime. It was while Optimus was present that Monstructor attacked, having at last escaped his imprisonment and seeking revenge against Omega. Informing Optimus of his history with Nova and Monstructor, Omega provided the Autobot leader with information on Monstructor's weak spot, enabling him to defeat the gestalt, though Prime condemned him for attempting to play god by simply locking them away. {{storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}} Some time later, when the [[Dead Universe]] Transformers began attacking the Autobots, Omega confirmed the identities of [[Galvatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Galvatron]] and [[Cyclonus (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Cyclonus]] for [[Jetfire (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Jetfire]], informing him that they too were members of Nova Prime's Ark crew. {{storylink|Spotlight: Hardhead}}

[[File:Omega Arrives in AHM.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|RAAAAAIIIID?!]]
When Decepticons initiated a [[Surge (event)|galaxy-wide assault]] on all Autobot outposts, pushing their enemies to the brink of extinction, Omega Supreme was also targeted, but his power proved too much for the Decepticons to handle. Around a year after this "Surge", Omega followed a distress call sent by [[Hot Rod (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Hot Rod]] to Cybertron, arriving just in time to turn the tide of a battle between the Autobot survivors camped out on the planet and the feral [[Insecticon swarm]] stalking them. Apologizing for taking so long, Omega assumed his rocket mode at Optimus Prime's request, and ferried the Autobots to Earth for a confrontation with Megatron and the Decepticons. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 10|All Hail Megatron #10}} During the battle that followed in New York City, Omega engaged the new Decepticon combiner [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]], {{Storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 11|All Hail Megatron #11}} moving their fight out to Liberty Island to minimize collateral damage. Notionally, that is—Omega won the bout when he pushed Devastator against the [[Statue of Liberty]] and took him out with a blast to the midsection, which also destroyed Lady Liberty. Whoops. {{Storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 12|All Hail Megatron #12}}

[[File:NewArrivalsOldEncounters OmegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|Movieverse redesign: funky]]
Omega remained on Earth with the other Autobots during the two years that followed the New York battle, hiding out in a remote canyon in base mode. When Optimus Prime surrendered to the forces of [[Skywatch]] and Autobot leadership was divided between Hot Rod and [[Bumblebee (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Bumblebee]], the two new leaders had different plans for Omega. Hot Rod approached him with the proposal that they use his rocket mode to get off the planet, but Omega refused, both because he lacked the fuel, and because he was insistent upon staying on Earth as long as Optimus Prime remained there. {{storylink|Things Fall Apart, Part 1: "New Arrivals, Old Encounters"|New Arrivals, Old Encounters}} Bumblebee then hid him from Skywatch by having him relocate to a cramped cave, which Omega—now too low on energon to even transform into base mode—found extremely uncomfortable. {{storylink|The Hanging Sword}} Omega was later present at the cave's opening when [[Gordon Horiuchi]] made a visit to repair Bumblebee's supposedly damaged killswitch board. {{storylink|The Gift Horse}} After Horiuchi's scheme to control the Autobots was thwarted with the help of [[Daniel Klonowski]], Omega Supreme was present when Bumblebee's new, more powerful body was unveiled. {{Storylink|Wings of Wax}}

A few months later after an alliance had been formed between the Autobots and Skywatch, the Decepticons returned to Earth and wrecked their headquarters, a Skywatch base. [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Ultra Magnus]] had the place evacuated and tried to regroup at Omega Supreme, still hiding in the desert. {{storylink|Revenge of the Decepticons Part 3: Woken Furies|Woken Furies}} After some trouble along the way, the Autobots reached their destination and made Omega's base mode their new headquarters. When Megatron let himself get captured, he was imprisoned inside Omega Supreme, who was ordered to transform and crush him in the process if he tried to escape. {{storylink|Revenge of the Decepticons Part 5: Enemy Mine|Enemy Mine}}

[[File:Omega Supreme rocket Chaos Theory 1.jpg|thumb|upright=2]]
When the Autobots learned that Cybertron had become habitable once again only for Galvatron to occupy it, they elected to return to their home planet on Omega Supreme. Charged up with whatever energy Skywatch could offer and a fuel cell invented by [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], Omega's rocket mode carried most of Optimus Prime's Autobots and the captive Megatron into space, while his base mode remained on Earth with Bumblebee. {{storylink|Space Opera—Final Tableaux: Orphans of the Helix|Orphans of the Helix}} {{storylink|Police Action: Prologue}} When Optimus Prime wanted to have a private chat with Megatron, Omega shut off the viewscreens to the room to prevent the other Autobots from peeping, and he also cut the power to the [[variable voltage harness]] when Optimus lost patience and almost killed Megatron with it. {{storylink|Chaos Theory Part 1|Chaos Theory #1}} {{storylink|Chaos Theory Part 2|Chaos Theory #2}}

[[File:Omega Supreme Kings.jpg|thumb|left|200px]]
Upon arriving at Cybertron, Omega Supreme was ordered to remain in orbit while the Autobots went down to the surface. {{storylink|Chaos Part One: Lamentations|Lamentations}} With Rodimus captaining him, he participated in the battle against Galvatron's weaponized [[Kimia Facility]], but when the Autobot air forces failed to damage it, he and Rodimus agreed that their only choice was for Omega to ram it. However, just as they were about to, Kimia suddenly exploded from internal sabotage, damaging Omega's rocket mode and forcing him to land on Cybertron. {{storylink|Chaos Part Two: Numbers|Numbers}} Unable to take off, he was easy prey for a [[Deceptigod|gigantic monster]] created out of Galvatron's entire army, which attacked and ripped the rocket in half. {{storylink|Chaos Part Three: Kings|Kings}} This caused pain to his other half on Earth, where he had to report to Bumblebee that their former ally [[Spike Witwicky (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Spike Witwicky]] had fled the premises. {{storylink|Police Action Part 3: A Second Chance at Eden|A Second Chance at Eden}}

Omega's base and tank components continued to serve as the Earth-bound Autobots' headquarters. After Bumblebee managed to defeat all five Stunticons on his own, he had Ultra Magnus put his captives in one of Omega's prisoner holds. {{storylink|The Question}}

[[File:Omega Supreme on Cybertron The Autonomy Lesson.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4]]
Once the Autobots had won the battle on Cybertron and abandoned Earth, Omega Supreme's rocket was repaired and the rest of him returned home as well. He was still recharging three weeks later and thus couldn't help put down a [[NAIL]] riot, forcing the Autobots to get the Decepticons' help instead. Rodimus wanted to use Omega in the search for the [[Knights of Cybertron]], but Bumblebee wouldn't let him. {{storylink|Transformers: The Death of Optimus Prime|The Death of Optimus Prime}} [[Ironhide (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Ironhide]] broke one of Omega's walls while returning from exploring Cybertron's hostile surface, but was assured that it'd grow back. {{storylink|The Autonomy Lesson (issue)|The Autonomy Lesson}}

When word reached Omega that [[Metrotitan (G1)|Metrotitan]]—who had long since left Cybertron along with Dai Atlas–had returned and promptly died, he spoke to [[Metalhawk (G1)|Metalhawk]] about what the Titan had said before he perished. The titan had dubbed [[Starscream (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Starscream]] the Cybertronian who would unite their race, calling many of Metalhawk's beliefs into question, and Omega concluded that the Titan's purpose had been to foster that sense of uncertainty to open the way for change. {{storylink|Primus: All Good Things|All Good Things}} [[File:Metalhawk and Omega Supreme Primus All Good Things.jpg|thumb|left|200px]] Starscream approached him in a televised interview to ask if he had anything to add about the Titan's claims, but he refused to comment. Soon after their talk, a massive explosion struck Omega Supreme, nearly killing him and causing outrage among the public, who revered him as their ancient protector. With Omega on life support, the Autobots and neutrals blamed the Decepticons in general for the attack, while Starscream's own primary suspect was [[Shockwave (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Shockwave]]. {{storylink|The End of the Beginning of the World}}
''Outside of Omega Supreme's shattered head, a seemingly-inactive robot matching Omega's "Omega Spreem" incarnation can be seen. Your guess is as good as ours.''

[[Prowl (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Prowl]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Wheeljack]] drove past the defeated giant as he lay comatose in the streets where he'd fallen. {{storylink|The Verge}} The true culprit behind the attack later turned out to be a mind-controlled Prowl, whose motive had been to eliminate the one Autobot capable of standing up to Megatron's new Devastator. {{storylink|Before the Dawn}} Eventually, all Autobots and Decepticons were exiled from Iacon by Starscream, who promised the Autobots that the NAILs would repair Omega Supreme before giving him the choice to either renounce the Autobot cause or join the others in exile. {{storylink|Second Exodus}}

Six months later, Omega Supreme was still undergoing repairs in a facility alongside [[Superion (G1)|Superion]]. {{storylink|The World of Tomorrow}} He remained comatose through the [[Combiner Wars (event)|Combiner Wars]] and the ''next'' Decepticon uprising. {{storylink|Conquerors Part 2: Lagrange|Lagrange}}

When [[Unicron/Generation 1|Unicron]] attacked [[Caminus (planet)|Caminus]], Bumblebee ventured inside the planet-eater and found a ruined Omega Sentinel. Convinced that the ancient guardians might have knowledge about the Chaos Bringer, the yellow minibot sought out Omega Supreme's comatose form. Though initially hoping to use [[Soundwave (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Soundwave]]'s telepathy and only having come to check on the ancient bot's state, Bumblebee somehow mind-melded with Omega Supreme. With the last of his strength, Omega imparted onto Bumblebee what knowledge he had on Unicron's past before he finally succumbed to his injuries and perished. {{storylink|Stranger Eons}} His body was destroyed soon after by Unicron, along with the rest of Cybertron. {{storylink|Road's End}}

When Soundwave utilized the [[Enigma of Combination]] to connect to the [[Transformer afterlife|Afterspark]], Omega Supreme appeared as one of the departed [[sparks]] that beckoned the Decepticon to join them while they sent their strength to Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Ceremony}}
{{--}}

===''Kre-O'' online comic===
[[File:KreO OmegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|200px]]
After being asked to by [[Megatron (Kre-O)|Megatron]], the [[Autobot]]s attacked the Decepticon Base and chased away [[Vortex (G1)#Kre-O|Vortex]]. In thanks, Megatron hosted a gathering in the base, which Omega Supreme attended. {{Storylink|A Reliable Warrior!? Vortex the Lookout from Hell}}
{{-}}

===''Transformers vs. G.I. Joe''===
[[File:TFVsJoeOmegaSupreme.jpg|left|300px|thumb|Life: highway. Riding all night long: desired.]]
According to [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s drawing of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s exile from Cybertron, Prime departed with help from Omega Supreme. {{storylink|Form Follows Function}} He later hid himself on Earth in the form of a road called "Highway Omega", only revealing himself once some [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joes]] were attacked by Decepticons and [[Cobra]] while driving on him. After taking out [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] and [[Viper (CW)|Viper]], Omega announced that he had heard the call to fight for his homeworld and transformed into rocket mode, returning to Cybertron and unintentionally bringing the Joes along. In space he ran into [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], and the two old rivals fought until they crashed on Cybertron's surface where Omega was able to restrain his nemesis. {{storylink|Pax Megatronus}} He went on to participate in the joint Autobot-Joe assault on the Decepticon army. {{storylink|Transformers vs. G.I. Joe issue 12|Transformers vs. G.I. Joe #12}}
{{--}}

===''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' continuity===
====''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' marketing material====
[[File:Siege-Omega-Supreme-art.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4]]
Omega Supreme's function was City Defender, and he was a [[Cybertronian military insignia|Space Command Transport Captain]] {{storylink|#War for Cybertron: Siege|''Siege'' toy}} (or maybe a Ground Command Engineering Specialist).{{storylink|War for Cybertron: Siege|''Siege'' webpage}} During the war for Cybertron, Omega Supreme was dispatched to the location where [[Crystal City]] once stood. {{storylink|Source:Teletraan-1 Data Files|''Siege'' Teletraan-1 Data Files}}
{{--}}

====''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Keith Silverstein]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Marco Wittorf]] (German), [[Samir Murad]] (Brazilian Portuguese), [[Santos Alberto]] (Latin-American Spanish)}}

[[File:WFC-S Omega Supreme in mist.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|Omegas in the mist.]]
When the war between the Autobots and Decepticons began, the Guardians refused to get involved. Later, Optimus Prime summoned the Guardians for their assistance but, in spite of his pleas, the giants continued to hold their neutral stance. As Optimus Prime left, Omega Supreme watched from the mist. {{storylink|Siege episode 4}} In the name of Cybertron, Omega Supreme came to the Autobots' assistance by holding off the Decepticons as the ''Ark'' pursued the [[AllSpark]] through a Space bridge. When the bridge exploded, Omega vanished in the blast. {{storylink|Siege episode 6}}

[[File:WarForCybertronSiege Ep6.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Surprise: immediate!]]
He reemerged to fight alongside [[Elita One (G1)|Elita-1]]'s Autobots for a time but disappeared following the fall of [[Crystal City]]. {{storylink|Earthrise episode 2}} A hologram in Omega Supreme's likeness was created by [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] to distract [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] from attacking [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]], during the skirmish in [[Nebulos|Nebulon]] Station. {{storylink|Earthrise episode 3}} During a raid on the [[Kaon (polity)|Kaon]], [[Elita One (G1)|Elita-1]], suspecting that she was being watched, bluffed that Omega Supreme and the Guardians were on stand-by for an attack, the falsehood luring out the cloaked [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]. {{storylink|Earthrise episode 6}}
{{--}}

===2019 IDW continuity===
Omega Supreme was an old friend of [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. Upon returning from his mission to find [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], Ultra Magnus attempted to hail Omega Supreme but did not receive a response.{{storylink|Storm Horizon Part 3}}

===Energon Universe===
{{spoiler|Transformers (2023) issue 13|November 8, 2024}}
[[File:TF2023 no.13 - OmegaFliesOver.jpg|200px|thumb|right]]
In a phenomenon that only occured every 200 years, Omega Supreme would fly over Cybertron and its moons. One particular instance of this was witnessed by [[Starscream (G1)|Ulchtar]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]], and [[Genvo]]. Ulchtar detonated a grenade to catch the titan's attention, waving at him, with Omega waving back. {{storylink|Transformers (2023) issue 13|Transformers #13}}

{{--}}

==Commercial appearances==
* Starscream and Thrust happened upon the "Autobots' defense base" in the middle of a desert, unaware that the installation was really Omega Supreme in disguise. Omega Supreme rectified this by transforming and counter-attacking the two Decepticon jets. {{storylink|Commercial/Generation 1#Omega Supreme|Omega Supreme commercial}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: Legends''===
Omega Supreme was once friends with the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] but they had a falling out of some sort. {{storylink|The Secret of Omega Supreme (Legends)|The Secret of Omega Supreme}}

Omega Supreme commanded a special escort mission tasked with protecting important cargo from a Decepticon strike force. {{storylink|Cold Delivery}} After the Decepticons coated themselves with [[Electrum]], Omega Supreme still thought he could crush them with superior firepower, but he was quickly proven wrong. {{storylink|The Golden Lagoon (Legends)|The Golden Lagoon}}

In the chaos following Optimus and Megatron's clash during a battle in Autobot City, Omega Supreme arrived with reinforcements, including [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]]. The newcomers were able to bring some order to the battle. {{storylink|The Omega Corps}}

Learning that the Constructicons were working on an asteroid, Omega Supreme rushed off to attack them and inadvertently released a huge space beast. After helping defend [[San Diego]] from the beast, Omega and his fellow Autobots took the surviving Constructicons into custody. {{storylink|The Secret of Omega Supreme (Legends)|The Secret of Omega Supreme}}

===''Transformers: Earth Wars''===
[[File:Omega Supreme Earth Wars.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]‎

A long time ago Omega Supreme departed Cybertron and somehow ended up on Earth. In the present day the Autobots contacted Chromia for the location of the dormant Autobot in order to defeat Deathsaurus and his new combiner. {{storylink|Transformers: Earth Wars/Events|Slumbering Giants}}
{{gamestub}}

===''Angry Birds Transformers''===
[[File:BombSupreme.jpeg|thumb|200px]]
{{main|Bomb (AB)#As Omega Supreme}}
A rather small version of Omega Supreme portrayed by Bomb helps demolishing towers on [[Piggy Island]]. {{storylink|Angry Birds Transformers (mobile game)|Angry Birds Transformers}}
{{--}}

===''Transformers Roleplaying Game''===
Omega Supreme was one of the largest Autobots in active duty. Despite his size and vast arsenal of weapons, Prime rarely called upon his services; when he did, Omega knew that the situation must be dire indeed. {{storylink|Transformers Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook|Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook}}

After the introduction of [[combiner]] technology at the height of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], the Autobots were forced to protect their few Titans, including [[Rails]] and Omega Supreme, from Decepticon aggression. {{storylink|The Enigma of Combination}}

==Toys==
===''The Transformers''===
{{anchor|Generation 1}}[[File:G1OmegaSupreme toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Little yellow clips: misplaced.]]
<ul class ="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Omega Supreme''' (Motorized Defense Base, 1985)}}</ul>
:* ''Accessories'': 2 small shields, 2 medium shields, 2 large shields, 4 armour halves (A, B, C, D), 4 ankle halves (E, F, G, H), 2 feet, backpack, 4 tracks (J, K, L, M)

: Released in the second year of the US [[The Transformers (toyline)|''The Transformers'' toyline]], Omega Supreme transforms into three individual components simultaneously: a large rocket base, a rocket and a Cybertronian tank. Omega Supreme's "transformation" involves very little manipulation of his moving parts, in fact, the only part that transforms is his main body/tank. Instead, it is achieved by disassembling him into his component pieces, which are then put back together in a different configuration. The tank forms his main body, the rocket forms his forearms, the track makes up most of his legs, while the gantry forms his feet and backpack, with extra track parts forming wings. The torso features a [[Battery-powered motor|battery-operated motor]] which propels the tank around the track as its turret spins and flashes with orange light, or allows Omega to walk (very slowly) forward in robot mode. This motor is extremely susceptible to failure.

: Normally it's not possible to have every part of the rails attached to him if one follows the instructions and animation model, but by arranging the "wings" into an "X" shape on his back, one can store all of his parts in robot mode.

: Omega Supreme was one of several toys licensed by [[Hasbro]] from a company other than [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]. In this case, Omega was licensed from a company called [[Toybox]], who also would provide [[Sky Lynx (G1)#The Transformers|Sky Lynx]] the following year. As a consequence, Omega Supreme was never released in the [[The Transformers (European toyline)|European]] or [[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers (toyline)|Japanese]] toylines... at least, during the original 1980s run.

::* ''[https://www.transformerland.com/wiki/toy-info/transformers-g1-bases-omega-supreme/548/ Patent info, price guide, and further reading on Omega Supreme at Transformerland.com]''
::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/1985/Autobot/OmegaSupreme/OmegaSupreme.htm More information on Omega Supreme at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|omegaspreem}}
[[File:G1-toy OmegaSpreem.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Identity: specious. Colors: [[Neon|abrasive]].]]
<ul class ="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Omega Spreem''' {{sic}} (Action Master Elite, 1991)}}</ul>
:* ''Accessories'': Gun/tread unit
{{toydesigner|[[Takio Ejima]] (TakaraTomy), [[Masakatsu Saito]] (concept artist)}}

: Released in the seventh year of the [[The Transformers (European toyline)|European-market ''Transformers'' toyline]] (the first year following the end of the US line), "Omega Spreem" is an [[Action Master Elite]], the only variety of [[Action Master]]s that could actually transform into an (admittedly tenuous) alternate mode; Omega turns into a really awkward Cybertronian "laser tank". A push-button on Omega's butt spins his upper body around, which in tank mode means the upper "turret" spins like a drill. Despite having a gun on the back of his head, there is not enough clearance for his head to fold down far enough to make it point forward in vehicle mode. Due to his "transformation," he is one of the most articulated Action Masters, featuring universal shoulder joints, a wrist bend, an upwards neck joint (though at the price of a sideways neck joint), and even a waist swivel, though it's pretty loose. Like the other Action Master Elites, Spreem has universal joints rather than the standard Action Master rubber bands in his hips, making him significantly more durable in that department. Spreem is also the heftiest of the four Elites, who are already slightly larger in every direction than regular Action Masters, having a torso almost twice as thick as a regular Action Master.

: There is a minor variant to this toy, having either a thin gun barrel on the back of his head or a shortened, thicker barrel. Good luck.

: Like the other Action Master Elites, he was only released in Europe and Australasia. As such, he can command some pretty exorbitant prices for a complete, clean figure, even loose. Also like the other Elite figures, his gimmick can be prone to breakage, so be careful. He's gonna be a bear to replace.

: "Omega Spreem" is one possible transliteration of the Katakana (a Japanese syllabary used for foreign words and names) spelling of "Omega Supreme", suggesting that the error could have resulted from the name [[Japanese language|going from English to Japanese and then back to English again]]. ''Why'' it would have gone through this rigmarole, however, is unknown. The ''[[Transformers Vault]]'' book reveals more details for how this might have happened, without really ''explaining'' it: the design artwork for an unreleased standard (''not'' Elite) Action Master Omega Supreme has his name written (correctly) on the top of the sheet in big black marker. However, there's also an illustrator's note written in very small pen/pencil next to the toy's design artwork, which misspells the character's name as "Omega Spreem", despite the correct spelling being in giant text directly above it (though to be fair, it's possible that the black marker text was added after the fact).

::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/1991/Autobot/OmegaSpreem/omegaspreem.htm More information on Omega Spreem at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===''Encore''===
<ul class ="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Omega Supreme''' (2008)}}</ul>
:* ''ID number'': '''9'''
:* ''Accessories:'' 2 small shields, 2 medium shields, 2 large shields, 4 armour halves (A, B, C, D), 4 ankle halves (E, F, G, H), 2 feet, backpack, 4 tracks (J, K, L, M)

: In June 2008, TakaraTomy released the toy for the first time in Japan as part of their ''[[Transformers Encore|Encore]]'' line. This new release was slightly [[retool]]ed to have a face (well, the top half of one) in the tank turret which becomes his head, although this ends up looking odd in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]].

: This retooled version was later [[redeco]]ed as a [[Guardian robot#Collector's Edition|Guardian robot]] (aka "GADEP"), available through the online [[e-HOBBY]] store.

::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/1985/Autobot/OmegaSupreme/OmegaSupreme.htm More information on ''Encore'' Omega Supreme at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===''Kre-O''===
<ul class ="iconlist">{{Bp-a1d1|'''Kreon Class of '85''' (Kreon figure set, 2015)}}</ul>
:* ''Set number'': '''B5152'''
:* ''Voted'': The Athlete

: ''[[Kre-O]]'' Omega Supreme is a small brick-built [[Kreon]] figure, using the 2015-style construction with the sturdier "peg-in-peg" torso/waist connection. His body [[tampograph]]s are heavily toy-based, but he has a cartoon-based face design. While he lacks wings, he has white clip-on tank treads, plus rather than normal Kreon hands, he has a big claw and a 1x1 cone-piece to replicate the original toy's rocket-part arms.

: He was only available as part of the [[San Diego Comic-Con]]-[[exclusive]] "[[Kreon Class of '85]]" 30-Kreon set. This set was also sold online through [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] after the show.
{{-}}

===''War for Cybertron: Siege''===
{{anchor|Generations}}
[[File:WFC-Siege-WFCS29-Titan-Omega-Supreme.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|Tax return: yet to arrive.]]
<ul class ="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Omega Supreme''' (Titan Class, [[2019]])}}</ul>
:* ''Hasbro ID number'': '''WFC-S29'''
:* ''TakaraTomy ID number'': '''SG-39'''
:* ''TakaraTomy release date'': [[December 26]], 2019
:* ''Hidden message code'': '''CRYSTALCITY'''
:* ''Accessories'': [[Micromaster]] [[Countdown (G1)#War for Cybertron: Siege|Countdown]], 7 [[Fire Blast effect]]s, 2 track/wing pieces
{{toydesigner|[[John Warden]] (Hasbro), [[Takashi Kunihiro]] and [[Shogo Hasui]] (TakaraTomy)}}

: ''[[War for Cybertron: Siege|Siege]]'' Omega Supreme is a huge Titan Class figure that transforms into a rocket base and comes with [[Countdown (G1)#War for Cybertron: Siege|Countdown]]. His tank component can store a vehicle mode Micromaster in a front hatchway, with a track upscaled to the point that a deluxe class figure can roll on it. A robot mode Micromaster can fit in a space at the top of the rocket, with plenty of spaces in his general body for smaller figures. Like most ''Siege'' figures, Omega features extensive articulation and numerous [[5 mm post|5mm holes]] across his body to accommodate the [[C.O.M.B.A.T. System]], and his large size means you can overload his arsenal.

: The tank mode can elevate its central turret as well as two smaller side cannons - however, once clipped into place against the robot head the turret cannot spin. The robot head has a very small faux tank cannon attached to the back of it, which can be folded out of sight.

: Omega's track pieces use [[A.I.R. Lock System]] connectors to attach to his main body. Additional A.I.R. Lock connectors can be found at the ends of the ramps on his thighs as well as on flip-out black pieces on his legs/gray track segments. He also features ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' compatible connectors on the outer circumference of his tracks, though only [[Fortress Maximus (G1)#Titans Return|Fortress Maximus]] (or [[Grand Maximus#Legends|Grand Maximus]]) has ramps that can reach them at a flat level. Other figures have to be boosted or have their ramps bent.

: While Omega does sport 'battle damage' paint operations on his limbs like most other toys from his subline, on him the effect is much tamer than usual, being limited to faded 'burn' marks around six ports (two on each arm, one on each leg) that accommodate the 'Fire Blast' effects simulating blaster fire. Notably, Omega is also the first Titan Class toy to not feature any [[sticker]]s of both the customer-applied and factory-applied variety.

: When transforming Omega Supreme's arms into rocket mode, the instructions say to collapse the forearms towards the shoulder section before closing the quarter-circular panels. However, the toy is designed to have the quarter-circular panels closed first. Then, line up the arrows on the forearms with the corresponding arrows on those panels, then collapse the forearms in towards the shoulders and rotate them in the indicated direction to lock them in place.

: This figure was [[redeco]]ed into [[Guardian robot#Generations Selects|Guardian robot]].

: Omega Supreme was reissued exclusively to [[BigBadToyStore]] in [[2024]] with preorders listed on October 21st of that year.

::* ''[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy65-NPwDWo Official conversion video at the TRANSFORMERS OFFICIAL YouTube channel]''
::* ''[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIjeeBa7xlw Ten facts of ''Siege'' Omega Supreme at the TRANSFORMERS OFFICIAL YouTube channel]''
{{WFCSiegeOmegaSupremeFireBlastMold}}
{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===''Super Collection Figure''===
[[File:SCF Omega Supreme.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Stick: Given. Stick: DON'T GIVE HIM THE STICK]]
* '''Omega Supreme''' (2001)
** ''Act'': '''5'''
** ''Accessories'': Stand

: A three-inch tall [[plastic|PVC]] figurine of Omega Supreme was available in "Act 5" of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Heroes of Cybertron (toyline)|Super Collection Figure]]'' line (which, oddly, centered around ''[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers (franchise)#Transformers: Super-God Masterforce|Super-God Masterforce]]'', a series which Omega Supreme was not part of). Like all the figures in the wave, it was available as both a standard full color figure and a metallic silver "pewter" version, one of each of which was available in a standard case of twelve [[blindpacking|blindpacked]] figures.

: Omega lacks the face-canopy, and has a... very unfortunate face.

: In eight out of every ten cases, the pewter version of Omega Supreme came packaged with the left leg of the [[Scorponok (G1)#Super Collection Figure|BlackZarak]] collectible "build-a-figure". This part could be either full-color or clear plastic, packed at an equal ratio of 4:4.

::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/2002/Cybertron/SCFOmegaSupreme/omegasupreme.htm More information on ''Super Collection Figure'' Omega Supreme at TFU.info]''
::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/2002/Cybertron/PewterOmegaSupreme/omegasupreme.htm More information on pewter Omega Supreme at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===''Heroes of Cybertron''===
[[File:HOC Omega Supreme.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH]]
* '''Omega Supreme''' (2003)

: Part of the fifth and final (normal) wave of ''[[Heroes of Cybertron (toyline)|Heroes of Cybertron]]'', Omega Supreme is a redeco of the ''Super Collection Figure'' release (above), given a [[light-piping]] gimmick by being cast entirely in translucent blue plastic then painted everywhere except on his eyes and the back of his head. This means his entire head-gun is clear-blue rather than red.

: Omega was, unlike the Japanese figure, sold on an individual blister card with a collector's card. He also came with the torso of the [[Metroplex (G1)#Heroes of Cybertron|Metroplex]] "build-a-figure".

::* ''[https://www.tfu.info/2003/Autobot/HoCOmegaSupreme/omegasupreme.htm More information on ''Heroes of Cybertron'' Omega Supreme at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Diamond Select===
[[File:Ark Globe.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Appearance: cameo. Residuals: minimal.]]
* '''Autobot Snow Globe''' (2007)

: Omega Supreme appears as part of the base of this snow globe, sculpted by [[Art Asylum]] and sold by [[Diamond Select Toys]].

{{-}}
[[File:Omega statue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Pose: [[Pat Lee#Transformers by Dreamwave|Dreamwave]]. Knees: buckling.]]
* '''Omega Supreme Statue''' (2008)

: Omega Supreme was released as a statue in 2008 by Diamond Select Toys. He was sculpted by Mark Wong of Art Asylum and limited to 1,000 pieces.
{{-}}

===''Transformers Trading Card Game''===
[[File:W2OmegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
* '''Omega Supreme, Autobot Defense Base''' (2019)
** '''Wave 2P'''
** ''Rarity: '''''SRT'''
** ''Card Number: '''''P2'''
** ''Stars: ''19

: Omega Supreme, Autobot Defense Base was released exclusively in the February 2019 Loot Crate.

: The card's artwork is reused from the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game.

{{-}}
[[File:W4CaptainOmegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2]]
* '''Captain Omega Supreme, Transport-City Defender''' (2019)
** ''Stars: ''22
** '''Omega Supreme(Base), Transport-City Defender'''
*** '''Wave 4: War for Cybertron: Siege II'''
*** ''Rarity: '''''RT'''
*** ''Card Number: '''''T13/T52'''
*** ''Stars: ''8
** '''Omega Supreme(Spaceship), Transport-City Defender'''
*** '''Wave 4: War for Cybertron: Siege II'''
*** ''Rarity: '''''RT'''
*** ''Card Number: '''''T14/T52'''
*** ''Stars: ''7
** '''Omega Supreme(Tank)//Transport•City Defender'''
*** '''Wave 4: War for Cybertron: Siege II'''
*** ''Rarity: '''''RT'''
*** ''Card Number: '''''T15/T52'''
*** ''Stars: ''7

: Captain Omega Supreme, Transport-City Defender was released as part of Wave 4 of the [[Transformers Trading Card Game]], War for Cybertron: Siege II. This version of Omega Supreme begins the game as three separate cards in Alt Mode, one depicting his tank portion. one depicting his spaceship portion, and the third depicting his base portion. Once the player's opponent shuffles their deck, Omega Supreme's Alt Mode components combine into one Combiner Mode, depicting Omega Supreme's robot mode.

: Captain Omega Supreme, Transport-City Defender's artwork is based on the ''[[War for Cybertron: Siege|Siege]]'' Omega Supreme toy, with the Combiner Mode artwork being reused from the toy's packaging. The Alt Mode components all received original art (really just a single piece of art with each card focusing on a different component), with line-art by [[Andrew Griffith]].

{{-}}

===Prime 1 Studio===
[[File:Prime-1-Studio-WFC-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
* '''Megatron''' (<s>2022</s>)
** ''ID Number'': '''PMTF-06UT'''

: A statue based on [[Megatron (G1)/merchandise#War for Cybertron Trilogy|Megatron]]'s appearance in the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron Trilogy (cartoon)|War for Cybertron Trilogy]]'' cartoon by [[Prime 1 Studio]]. The exclusive version includes a defeated Omega Supreme as part of the statue's base.

: This item was canceled due to the combination of rising production costs and insufficient preorders.

{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}

===''Transformers Character Card''===
[[File:Transformers Character Card Devastator and Omega Supreme.jpg|upright=1|thumb]]
* '''Omega Supreme & Devastor Set''' ([[August 14]], [[2023]])
** ''ID number:'' '''55 & 56'''

: Released as part of the eighth wave of the [[e-HOBBY]] exclusive ''[[Transformers Character Card]]'' series, this pair of holographic trading cards depict super-deformed art of Omega Supreme and "[[Devastator (G1)|Devastor]]" along with [[bio|character profiles]] and [[Tech Spec|tech specs]].
::* ''[[Source:Transformers Character Card#55|Translation of Omega Supreme's Transformers Character Card]]''

{{--}}

==Notes==
===Toy origins===
[[File:ToyboxMechabot-1.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[[Repaint]]: [[Black redeco|black]].]]
* Unlike the bulk of early Transformers that drew their molds from [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Diaclone]]'' and ''[[Micro Change]]'' toys, Omega Supreme's original form was "Super Change Robo Mechabot-1", produced by a company called [[Toybox]]. Toybox did not actually design Omega Supreme, instead commissioning his design, along with [[Sky Lynx (G1)|Sky Lynx]], from Takara's then-rival Tomy. As mentioned above, he was not released in [[Japan]] under the ''Transformers'' brand during the original 1980s run. As a result of the merger of Takara and Tomy in 2006, the merged company was able to release the figure under the ''Transformers'' brand for the first time in Japan, as part of the ''Encore'' line.
* Similar to [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Notes|Shockwave]] and his [[pre-Transformer]] predecessor "Astro Magnum", Omega Supreme/Mechabot-1 also saw a plethora of licensed versions released in various international (in his case, all of them European) markets concurrently with Hasbro's Transformers version, during a weird transitional phase when different companies' versions were influencing each other. Overall, there are two main color variants: Toybox's Mechabot-1 colors and Hasbro's Omega Supreme colors.<ref name="mechabot-1">[https://soundwavesoblivion.blogspot.com/2015/03/grandstand-convertors-omegatron.html "Grandstand Convertors: Omegatron, Mechabot-1 & Omega Supreme"] at the Soundwave's Oblivion blog.</ref> Due to these licensed releases, Omega Supreme was not released as part of Hasbro's ''Transformers'' line in these markets.
** In the United Kingdom, a company named Grandstand released the figure in its original "Mechabot-1" colors as part of its ''Convertors'' line, under the name "Omegatron".
** In Germany, a company named GAMA releasd the figure in its original "Mechabot-1" colors under the name "Trans Robot". The overall packaging design was the same one used for Toybox's original "Mechabot-1" version (down to the photos used), but the "Trans Robot" logo took some very obvious cues from Hasbro's "Transformers" logo. Additionally, the tank's long barrel was crudely cut off and replaced by a new radar dish accessory, presumably because German kids at the time weren't supposed to play with war toys.
** In Italy, [[GiG]] released the figure in its Hasbro colors as part of their ''[[Trasformer]]'' {{sic}} line, under the name "Megarobot". The packaging design was directly based on Hasbro's packaging for Omega Supreme, the only GiG ''Trasformer'' release without the official ''Transformers'' branding to do so.
** Lastly, in France, a company named [[Orli Jouet]] released the figure in its Hasbro colors as part of a line named "Robotrack", under the name "Mecabot". Like with GiG's "Megarobot", the packaging design was directly based on Hasbro's packaging for Omega Supreme; what's more, the toy was actually manufactured in Italy, possibly as part of a partnership with GiG, and on top of that, the official TV commercial for the figure actually ''used footage from Hasbro's ''Transformers'' commercial for Omega Supreme!''

===Other===
* According to [[Bob Budiansky]]'s notes at [[BotCon 2010]], Omega Supreme was originally going to be named '''[[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]]'''. Why the name changed is uncertain, but since it was later applied to [[Autobot City (G1)|Autobot City]] in the [[The Planet-Eater!|Marvel adaptation]] of the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie|Transformers]]'' movie before being used on the Headmaster, it seems someone ''really'' wanted to use it.
* Omega Supreme's name could be translated as "Last of the Best"; given his role as the "last line of defense", this is appropriate.
* Omega Supreme's voice in the cartoon is a combination of a downwards pitch shift and short delay, the echo effect in particular making his voice more "cavernous" sounding. Well, he is big.
* In the cartoon, Omega Supreme can launch his rocket into space, leaving the remaining parts behind at his launch base, and then transform fully back to [[robot mode]] even though the majority of his body parts are separated from the rocket by a good planetary diameter or two (if not several light years). Indeed, sometimes his base mode is seen to be inexplicably awaiting his rocket mode at his destination, leading some to speculate that Omega (rather implausibly) has duplicate body parts on some other planets, "just in case". Some [[fanon]] alternatively holds that in cases such as these, Omega's non-rocket parts actually use [[Size changing|size-changing technology]] to shrink down and travel as cargo inside his rocket mode, which are then disgorged and enlarged before landing. Another theory is that the base is transported to [[Unspace|subspace]], as some believe happens with Optimus Prime's trailer. Whatever helps you sleep at night...
* Although over half of the episodes from the Generation 1 cartoon featuring Omega were written by [[David Wise]] (including his showcase episode, "The Secret of Omega Supreme"), don't let that fool you into thinking Wise had a soft spot for Omega—he really didn't like him! In fact, the uncharacteristic eloquence displayed by Omega in "Secret" was actually a script error by Wise, who was unaware of Omega's trademark speech pattern and wrote the episode with normal dialogue. Script editors had to add in lines about Omega being able to talk normally when he wanted to make it work without a wholesale rewrite.<ref>[https://moonbase2.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=553015 Moonbase 2 interview with David Wise]</ref>
[[File:JoemegaSupreme.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Declarative: YO JOE!]]
* At JoeCon 2011, Hasbro's [[Rik Alvarez]] hosted a "Treasures from the Hasbro Archives" panel, where he revealed that he had then-recently found a box in the company archives containing an assortment of artwork, concept boards, and proposals for what "could have been" in a series of Transformers/[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]] crossovers. Of these concepts, the only one shown at the panel were parts of an Omega Supreme that had been redecoed and intended for release in the G.I. Joe toyline (this was later shown again at [[BotCon 2011]], though no photos were allowed then). Whether these redecoed parts were intended for use as a "crossover" G.I. Joe/Transformers character or as a non-living G.I. Joe vehicle was unsaid, as was ''when'' this toy was proposed.
* According to the [[Letters page (Marvel UK)|letters page]] of Marvel UK issue #285, "[[External Forces!]]", Omega is tougher than a "block of triple-strength [[durabyllium]] steel."
* Like all non-toy robot Kreons in these ''Kre-O'' online manga (at least, ones that didn't exist ''yet''), Omega Supreme is made from existing Kre-O parts. His exact construction is mostly concealed, but the comic design uses the diver helmet from ''Kre-O'' Battleship... which the later actual Kreon Omega would do!
* In [[2015]], Hasbro started a [[Fan polls|poll]] on their Facebook page on which of [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]], [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]], and Omega Supreme fans would want as the next Titan Class figure in the ''Generations'' toyline after ''Thrilling 30'' [[Metroplex (G1)#Generations|Metroplex]]. [[Trypticon (G1)#Titans Return|Trypticon]] won and got a toy in ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', but Omega also eventually got a new toy as well in ''[[War for Cybertron: Siege]]''.

===Foreign names===
* ''Japanese:'' '''Omega Supreme''' (オメガ・スプリーム ''Omega Supurīmu'')
* ''Hungarian:'' '''Szuper Omega'''
* ''Italian:'' '''Megarobot'''
* ''Mandarin:'' '''Omega''' (Taiwan, 奧米加 ''Àomǐjiā''), '''Dàlì Jīngāng''' (China, 大力金刚, "Powerful Vajra")
* ''Portuguese:'' '''Ômega Supremo'''
* ''Russian:'' '''Omegator''' (Омегатор)
* ''Ukrainian:'' '''Omega Velychnyi''' (Омега Величний, "Grand Omega")

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
* [https://news.tfw2005.com/2008/01/28/japanese-hobby-magazine-scans-for-january-2008-164116 Interview with Junichi Ishikawa, who was in charge of designing Omega Supreme and Sky Lynx at Tomy, detailing the story of how their Encore reissues came to be.]

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Autobot bases]]
[[Category:Dreamwave Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Encore]]
[[Category:Energon Universe Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 1 cartoon Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 1 toy Autobots]]
[[Category:Generations Selects Autobots]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) Autobots]]
[[Category:IDW (2019) Transformers]]
[[Category:Kre-O Autobots]]
[[Category:Kreons]]
[[Category:Legends Autobots]]
[[Category:Marvel Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Multi-component Transformers]]
[[Category:Regeneration One Autobots]]
[[Category:SDCC exclusives]]
[[Category:Second Cybertron Alliance]]
[[Category:Titans]]
[[Category:Transformers Roleplaying Game Autobots]]
[[Category:Unite Warriors Autobots]]
[[Category:War for Cybertron: Siege Autobots]]
[[Category:Zombies]]

Deergren

2024-10-09T03:02:19Z

Derik:

{{factions|decepticon}}

:''Deergren is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Transformers Roleplaying Game]] portion of the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

{{faceless}}

'''Deergren''' is a bad-tempered Decepticon who turns into a combine harverster. Armed with an array of sharp blades and a sharper tongue, he combines his close-combat attacks with nasty insults to better cut his foes down to size.

==Games==
===''Transformers Roleplaying Game''===
Deergren was one of the Decepticons under the command of [[Barrage (Insecticon)|Barrage]]. During an attack on the [[Royal Oak Farming Co-Op]] in [[Oregon]], Barrage posted Deergren and several other Decepticons to stand guard while he went underground in search of [[Primal Energon]]; while patrolling the facility, Deergren and his comrades subsequently tangled with a group of Autobots and came away worse for wear. {{storylink|From Yesterday to Today}}

==Notes==
*Deergren's name may be an homage to {{w|John Deere}}, the U.S. manufacturer of agricultural equipment, including combine harvesters in the iconic green color scheme.

==External Links==
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH9a0E0rZ4s New Holland CR robot transforms]

[[Category: Generation 1 Decepticons]]
[[Category:Transformers Roleplaying Game Decepticons]]

Talk:Black Roritchi

2024-10-08T11:19:45Z

Derik: /* Mentioning the Navokov in the Room */ new section

==Black Roritchi==
Would anyone know what "roritchi / ロリッチ" means? I'd guess something like "low ridge" but I'm not sure if that could be right without a prolonged "o"-sound. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:48, 12 December 2010 (EST)
:On a related note, wouldn't it make more sense for his name to be rendered as "Roricchi" given that the small ッ has the effect of doubling the next normal-sized character's consonant sound? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:25, 21 February 2020 (EST)
::{{w|Hepburn romanization#Long consonants}}. "ch" is not a k sound, but tsh, so the sound being repeated is t. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:21, 21 February 2020 (EST)
:::I know it's not a K sound. In my university's Japanese classes, we were taught that the small ッ placed before チ would turn "chi" into "cchi" when written in Latin script, and that to speak it one would add a brief glottal stop to the beginning of the affected consonant sound. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:33, 21 February 2020 (EST)
::::Then your class wasn't using standard Hepburn rules. {{w|Matcha}} [mat.tɕa], not maccha; the consonant sound is actually being repeated (think "catchain") and doesn't contain a glottal stop. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 21 February 2020 (EST)
:::::Saix is correct. For a famous example, the Hepburn scheme dictates the Romanized spelling "etchi" in contrast to the colloquially popular "ecchi" for「エッチ」. And to the main point at hand, I agree that if indeed derived from some English word, then「ロリッチ」should be rendered something like "Lorich", though I cannot discern the origin. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:26, 21 February 2020 (EST)
::::::It's either entirely made-up or something like "Rollich", from what I can gather. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 21 February 2020 (EST)
:::::::Thank you both for the correction. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 10:56, 21 February 2020 (EST)

lorica noun

lo·ri·ca | \ lə-ˈrī-kə \
plural loricae\ lə-ˈrī-kē , -ˌsē \
Definition of lorica
1: a Roman cuirass of leather or metal
2[New Latin, from Latin] : a hard protective case or shell (as of a rotifer)
:ロリカ is not ロリッチ and that makes no sense for this character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:31, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

Could his name be a combination of ''roll'' and ''sasori''? I have no idea how the characters would work but the thought came to me because he turns into a wheeled vehicle and is associated with Black Zarak, who turns into a scorpion (sasori in Japanese). The "itchi" part I don't know maybe it's just to make it sound more sci-fi. Sounds like Arms Micron logic now that I typed it out {{unsigned|Toadboiler|20:35, 19 May 2021}}
 
 
'''ロリッチ = Lolich''' 
The only actual instances I could find of ロリッチ in Japanese pages (outside of the Transformer) are the professional baseball players [https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%83%81 Ron Lolich] and
[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9F%E3%83%83%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%83%81 Mickey Lolich]. The meaning of the family name Lolich is not known, as far as I can tell. Why a Decepticon would be named after a baseball player is unclear, but baseball is popular in Japan and Ron Lolich did play for two Japanese teams from 1974–1976. It also stands out to me that the katakana for 'Lolich' is structurally identical to 'Zarak': a mora, a mora, a small 'tsu', and a mora with a devoiced vowel. Romanized, it's ''ZA-RA-(tsu)-Ku'' and ''RO-RI-(tsu)-CHi''. This is an example of common Japanese wordplay. 
In addition, I found this "Ask Vector Prime" tumblr post which discusses the topic:
 
[https://askvectorprime.tumblr.com/post/628424089827246080/dear-vector-prime-what-does-the-word-roritchi Ask "Vector Prime" on Tumblr]
 
but the canonicity of this story is apparently nil:
 
[https://twitter.com/AskVectorPrime2/status/1298322137816731650/photo/1 Vector Prime on Vector Prime]
 
[[User:Greboguru|Greboguru]] ([[User talk:Greboguru|talk]]) 18:09, 1 July 2021 (EDT)

== Guardminders ==

So is he the Guardminder's Leader or is this just speculation? ([[User:AutoTrooper2801|AutoTrooper2801]] ([[User talk:AutoTrooper2801|talk]]) 22:01, 3 January 2022 (EST))
:Read the note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:53, 3 January 2022 (EST)

== Mentioning the Navokov in the Room ==

"Black ロリッチ" is a pain in the ass to translate:
*Basically "ロリ" means loli, short for Lolita, either denoting 'young girl', or simply 'young person', or even just 'something which is cute' in the chibbi sense; an infantalizing prefix.
* The suffix "ッチ" can be a suffix which indicates endearment or as a diminuitive.
* "ッチ" can also mean "immediately, at once, post-haste, done in an express manner"
* Meanwhile "itchi" can mean "group/collective/swarm/chorus", and while the Guardminders are definately such a group that doesn't seem to be a correct reading. (Unless it's a pun while also primarily meaning something else.)
* "っち", pronounced, 'tch' is also sometimes used for the word 'touch'. Fortunately this seems to be limited to contexts like "touch screens," and so "dark child-toucher" is not a possible translation.
* And of course "rori" could also be read as "Lori", which is a kind of truck.
"Black" means black, though it is also used to mean 'unethical' or 'wicked', in the sense of the phrase "Black Pirate band."

So we are left with possible translations like "Black Cute-Speedy", or "Black speed-truck." Which... the *American* version of the mold is called "Fasttrack." ...what if someone in Japan misread that as **"Fast-truck"* when they were coming up with the name?

The only other alternative translation I see is... Gothic Lolita? If it's a reference to that type of fashion it would be awfully early... Gothic Lolita didn't really spread until the 1990s, OTOH Masterforce was pretty tuned into gothic stylings via Mega and Giga.

I honestly think it means "Black Fastruck." Which makes the 'black' utterly insane. That at least made semi-sense with 'Gothic Lolita,' since it was part of a phrase. (I suppose that he is "Black" in relation to serving under Black Zarak.)

So... ''Wicked Fasttrack''? The prefix and suffix in ロリッチ can both mean cute-or-diminuitive as applied to snacks or cakes. Is he [[Rad White|Wicked Sweet]]?-[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 07:19, 8 October 2024 (EDT)

Talk:Optimus Prime (SG)

2024-09-06T00:26:24Z

Derik: /* "Optronix" branding */ new section

Hey there,
Don't wanna seem overly touchy, but howcum this article has been given a cleanup tag? I put a stub tag on it myself (since I created the article), but I would've thought that'd be sufficent. Can you please articulate what elements need "cleaning up", as opposed to merely expanding on? --[[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].
:While the page is certainly stubby, it doesn't seem to require cleanup to me. [[User:JW|JW]] 21:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

==Separate page==
Do we really know enough about this guy to say if he's not from the G1 continuity family yet? If all the folks from his universe are G1 guys, but evil, that doesn't seem enough like a departure for me. We need more information before we can decide to split this dude off into his own page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
:Even if Shattered Glass does belong to the G1 continuity family, I think its characters likely warrant pages of their own. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
::I agree. ''Shattered Glass'' is really distinctive enough for a separate page. --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 08:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
:::To elaborate on my view: the concept of a "mirror universe" strikes me as fundamentally different than the standard "alternate universes" we're used to dealing with. While the cartoon, Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW, etc. universe versions of G1 Optimus Prime all present different takes on what is essentially the same, single character, the idea of Shattered Glass strikes me as creating a new, distinct character who "mirrors" the original rather than being a version of him. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm just worried about setting a horrible precedent for the future, or maybe a slippery slope. This might be the Gateway Drug to making the Marvel and Cartoon Shockwaves different pages, who knows! And soon enough, we'll all be forced to marry dogs and drive cattle to work. You know how it is. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey guys, this is somewhat repetative of the discussion already begun on the [[Talk:Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Talk:Shattered Glass]] page. Can I suggest we keep this more general discussion to one page or the other? I'd recommend the other page, as this debate is pretty just general principles so far and that's the overall page for Shattered Glass, whereas this is just for SG Prime, really. [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]][[User:PacifistPrime|PP]] 00:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

==Third trivia note - why?==
Seriously, why is "He is, of course, the evil 'Shattered Glass' counterpart to the heroic Optimus Prime" worth noting? Shouldn't it be bleeding obvious? If this is allowed, then why don't the other Shattered Glass pages have similiar trivia notes, eg [[Jazz (SG)|Jazz]] having "He is, of course, the evil 'Shattered Glass' counterpart to the heroic [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]]". Can I get an explanation please? [[User:Bobpiecheese|Bobpiecheese]] 03:00, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:I have to agree. Back when Shattered Glass was new it was perhaps worth noting, but it's incredibly superfluous now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:10, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::I completely diasgree, and feel that ''every'' Shattered Glass character should have such a note. Yes, it is "obvious" but, well, so what? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:13, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::There's this thing we have up at the top called a "disambiguation". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:28, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Which most of the time directs you to a list of multiple characters. Being the backwards-universe incarnation of a specific character is an inherent component of what every Shattered Glass character is, so having a line stating that somewhere in their article makes perfect sense to me, no matter how "superfluous" it may seem. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:34, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::I feel that if Shattered Glass borrowed from multiple different continuity families (G1, Beast Era, RID, etc...) it would be worth noting, since it wouldn't be glaringly obvious at that point which "Sideswipe" or whatever this Universe has a counterpart of. Since, as of right now, all the characters (Well, except for Sideburn, but who knows where they're going with that...) are G1 in origin, we should just have a note on the Shattered Glass main page about the characters being counterparts to G1 and that's it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 03:40, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::And [[Demolishor (SG)|Demolishor]]... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:00, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::SG's Universal Stream address indicates that it is, indeed a 'Generation 1' universe.
::::::But that same US address implicitly raises the possibility (I'd go so far as to say ''probability'') that we'll eventually see a Shattered Glass Animated or Unicron Trilogy, at which point we'll probably be moving ''all'' these articles to "(Shattered G1)." (Yeah, I'm not looking forward to it either.)
::::::Having a standard location ''somewhere'' where we note, unambiguously, "Shattered counterpart to this incarnation of this character" seems like a good idea. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:14, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Basically, I vote for either:
:::::::A note on the Shattered Glass franchise intro saying that most SG characters are G1 in origin, and then random non-G1 characters like Demolishor, Rick, and Will get a note on their own pages.
:::::::We just make everyone's continuity header say "...is from the Shattered Glass portion of the Generation 1 continuity family" without a trivia note (...except for Demolishor, Rick, and Will, who'd still need one, really.)
:::::::A separate disambig3 template to use, since the disambig2 ones pretty much always end up saying some variation on "evil counterpart/good counterpart" already. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:23, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I might favor that sort of '''<tt><nowiki>{{disambig3.5}}</nowiki></tt>'''... I've sorta been wishing for awhile that we had a way to disambig "Skids (Movie)" and "Skids (ROTF)" that acknowledged that there was more than one guy with the name in the same continuity without jumping up into the disambig. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:39, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Oh, yeah... turns out we have something like that anyway: '''<tt><nowiki>{{disambigrotf}}</nowiki></tt>'''. Well... there you go then. Let's make a generic one of that template, and switch over and delete the ROTF-specific one. Because really, that's the place that such a note should be whenever possible, not in the Trivia. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:58, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Something like this: User:Jeysie/Disambig3.5 for instance. Example:
:::::::::{{Disambig3.5|the evil Autobot leader|the original heroic Autobot leader|Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime}}
:::::::::(Although it needs a less sucky name. I don't have any ideas myself, though. :/ ) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:17, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::That sounds ideal to me. (I'd favor "for his heroic counterpart" or some such.) I agree we do need to call this out somewhere. It's another case of "obvious to us" but "not at all intuitively obvious". (and I say that even as my initial instinct actually is to say "yeah, that's so obvious!") -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:33, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Definitely necessary, IMO. Especially as we will undoubtedly get a SG version of some other continuity family at some point, and we'll undoubtedly get some SG characters drifting occasionally into non SG universes. If there is one consistent trend with Transformers, it's that ideas tend to migrate. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:38, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

== Nova Prime's Autobot Symbol ==

So, I just got his figure in the mail today, and noticed something interesting. The Autobot symbol on his chest/windshield is blue, almost Wreckers blue while still being the same standard shape. While it could be coincidence, is it possible that the blue is meant to represent the "purified" version of the SG Autobots by their Unicron? Sadly, the art for Another Light shows no one with faction symbols once they got transformed by Uniron, so I don't know if this is a coincidence, a one-off, or just a cool side-note. Thoughts?
: It might be blue so that it is neither the SG nor G1 Autobot symbol's colors, meaning a person could use the toy to represent either IDW Nova Prime or SG Nova Prime. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 21:34, 18 November 2017 (EST)
:: That is a remarkably good point, one I'd not thought of. The box doesn't specify which Prime he is, though the bio is of SG Nova Prime. I suppose it'd be more of an interesting trivia point than anything else. (Also, I really should remember to add my signature next time.)--[[User:NewtypeS3|NewtypeS3]] ([[User talk:NewtypeS3|talk]]) 22:09, 18 November 2017 (EST)

== MP-10: Takara Tomy or Hasbro? ==
The Masterpiece SG Optimus Prime appears on the [[Template:MP10Mold|Masterpiece mold: Convoy]] template under Takara Tomy. It appears on the [[Masterpiece]] toyline page under [[Masterpiece#Hasbro_versions|Hasbro]]. I moved the mold template entry to Hasbro to match the Masterpiece toyline page. Someone moved it back and insisted it's a Takara Tomy release. I moved the entry on the Masterpiece page to match the mold template, someone moved it back to Hasbro. This is ridiculous. I always understood it was a Hasbro Generations release, just like YOTH Optimus Prime; yet YOTH remains on the Hasbro versions page. The MP-based SG figure only has the Hasbro logo and a Generations identifier on the front of the box, and gives Hasbro's Pawtucket address on the instruction sheet.
Saying "[https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:MPOptimusMold&action=history using their numbering]" doesn't hold any water because Hasbro has been using MP-nn numbers since 2013, and has their own MP-10 Optimus Prime release. For the record, there is literally no "MP-10SG" anywhere on the box or instructions; if it's an identifier at all, it can only be an internal one.
I don't even care where it goes, but it should be correct and it should be consistent. --[[User:TGB|TGB]] ([[User talk:TGB|talk]]) 03:39, 8 June 2018 (EDT)
:Yeah, what’s the issue here? MP-10SG should be categorized as Hasbro for reader understanding. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:20, 8 June 2018 (EDT)

==Is there an SG Roller?==
I'm a bit curious, does the Masterpiece SG Optimus Prime come with a Roller or not? I'm just wondering.--[[User:CyclonustheWarrior|CyclonustheWarrior]] ([[User talk:CyclonustheWarrior|talk]]) 16:43, 12 January 2019 (EST)

==Switching bodies with Ultra Magnus in IDW SG2 #5==
Should the new SG Ultra Magnus toy be added to this page since Optimus Prime has been transferred to Ultra Magnus’ body? [[User:Bass X0|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0|talk]]) 20:32, 12 February 2023 (EST)

== "Optronix" branding ==

:I feel like I should point out that in the last year like 4-6 ''different'' pieces of Transformers merchandise coming out of China have begun labeling their Shattered Glass Optimus Prime repaints as "Optronix" or "Optimus Prime (Optronix)." Action figures, model kits, etc... but ALWAYS the ones with the purple Autobot symbol, not Decepticon symbols -- those are still Nemesis Prime.
:It seems like the Chinese Transformers community has settled on the name Optronix to distinguish SG Optimus from Nemesis Prime without anyone noticing. But I have no idea how to stick that on the page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 20:26, 5 September 2024 (EDT)

Death's Head (G1)

2024-04-24T09:58:05Z

Derik: /* External links */

{{factions|unicron}}
{{disambig2|the <s>bounty hunter</s> freelance peacekeeping agent from Generation 1|the starship from ''Animated''|Death's Head (Animated)}}
:''Death's Head is a <s>bounty hunter</s> freelance peacekeeping agent from the [[Marvel Comics continuity|Marvel portion]] of the [[Generation 1 continuity family]], yes?''
[[File:Deathshead113heardofme.jpg|upright=1.67|thumb|Said I was handsome, right?]]
Hrn. '''Death's Head''' is the name. I'm a "Freelance Peacekeeping Agent". Some call me a "bounty hunter," but never twice, yes? Handsome, resourceful, deadly—all words used to describe me. Modest too, eh? In the past I've been accused of ending statements as questions.<ref>This happened in an interview with Death's Head and Simon Furman(!) in issue 13 of ''Strip Magazine''. (As in "Comic Strip Magazine"—sheesh, get your minds out of the gutter.)</ref> Never could understand why, right?

Learned a long time ago that if a mechanoid is to survive in this life, you've got to respect the economy. Money is everything. Still, it's also nice to enjoy one's job, yes? Use a wide range of weapons, most of which (unlike my plasma rifle) I can use in place of my right hand. Missiles, [[titanium shott blaster]]—but sometimes it's just more satisfying to use a good old-fashioned axe, hrn?

==Fiction==
===Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics===
{{noteukexclusive}}
Nosy Autobot [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] knew I was built by a rich guy called Lupex as a vessel for his soul, before his missus Pyra gave me an independent hunter persona with Lupex lined up as my first hit (parents, right?). Reckon Blaster should keep his nose out of my domestics, but he says the full story is in a [[Marvel Comics]] graphic novel – got to respect his business sense, yes?<ref>[[Source:Darn 'n' Blast#Issue 301|Darn 'n' Blast, issue 301]]</ref>

[[File:Deathshead113bartab.jpg|left|thumb|One must always settle one's tab, eh?]]
First got involved with the Transformers on [[Elpasos]], around Earthdate [[2007]], yes? Mission 531, according to my log. Was just picking up some oil when I noticed a bounty on the head of some mechanoid named [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]. [[Elpasos barkeep|Bartender]] filled me in on the details. An Autobot named [[Hot Rod (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Rodimus Prime]]<ref>Death's Head never met Optimus Prime, so Rodimus Prime is '''his''' Prime.</ref> had put a 10,000-[[Shanix]] reward on the Decepticon's head. Lot of money, hrm? So I settled my account with the bar and went after the two Decepticons most likely to know Galvatron's whereabouts—his lieutenants, [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] and [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]].

Scourge quickly learned he shouldn't call me a bounty hunter, thanks to my plasma rifle.

Cyclonus decided he'd rather talk and told me where to find Galvatron. Wasn't long before I was using the Decepticon leader's [[Time-jump mechanism|time travel platform]] to [[Time travel|transport myself]] to [[1987]], eh? Time jump-displaced [[First Aid (G1)|some Autobot]] to [[Limbo]] during the [[Mass substitution|mass exchange]]. Also had to destroy his [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|companion]]. Didn't want any witnesses at that stage, right? {{storylink|Wanted: Galvatron — Dead or Alive!}}

Information is always the first key to a mission. Knew '''when''' Galvatron was, needed to find out where. Who better than the local Decepticons? Gambled they'd be keeping track of a... hrn... loose cannon. Ambushed [[Soundwave (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Soundwave]] and beat the information out of him—had to down his [[Laserbeak (G1)|pet bird]] in the process. Good times, yes?

Should have known it wouldn't last, right?

[[File:Deathshead117laserbash.jpg|thumb|Ahh, yes. Definitely good times, no?]]
When I found Galvatron, he was in the throes of battle with Rodimus Prime. Hrn, hate it when a client decides he can do the job himself, eh? Usually means they don't intend to pay. Bad form, if you ask me. Allowed my annoyance with Prime to distract me—that let Galvatron blast me with his [[particle cannon]]. Sloppy. Had to retreat and make repairs. Cost me some precious time. {{storylink|Hunters}}

Still, some things never change—when I returned, Galvatron and Prime were at it again.<ref>Though Ultra Magnus and Death's Head were both big players in this ongoing arc, they never met. Instead, every time DH saw Galvatron, he was fighting Rodimus Prime. The closest Magnus and DH came to meeting was when the Freelance Peacekeeping Agent passed by Magnus' unconscious body during his initial retreat.</ref> Luckily Prime wasn't doing very well, so I finally had my chance against Galvatron, eh? Had better fights. Lost a very nice mace, then an arm to which I was particularly attached. Then [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]] triggered a time jump, sending us all back to 2007, all except Galvatron. Turned out the Decepticon leader had prepared for such an eventuality and rigged his time jump trigger device so he couldn't be sent back forcibly.

[[File:Deathshead120armless.jpg|left|thumb|Ouch, yes?]]
Typical, yes? Would have simply extracted my lost fee from Rodimus Prime's hide then and there, if not for the garrison of Autobots waiting for us at the other end of the time jump. {{storylink|Fire on High!}} {{storylink|Vicious Circle!}}

Next time I dealt with the Transformers, I was working out of [[Scarvix]]. Some stinky little peon named [[Blot (G1)|Blot]] walked into my office with an offer. Name couldn't have suited him better, eh? Still, his offer was enticing—10,000 Shanix to kill Rodimus Prime. Jumped at the chance. Revenge doesn't pay the bills, but it's a satisfying fringe benefit, yes?

Decepticons gave me free passage to Cybertron and pointed me in the right direction. What I didn't know at the time was that Decepticon commander [[Shockwave (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Shockwave]] was using me, right? I attacked Prime in one of his trenches and was moments from the killing blow, when the ground collapsed underneath us. Ended up in the sewers, yes? Hrn, worse than that, lost my trusty axe in the fall. Frustrating, right?

Still, [[titanium shott blaster]] would have done just as well, except moments before I could kill Prime, I was shot in the back by Scourge. Told you Shockwave was using me, eh? He tricked Cyclonus and Scourge into going after Prime too, hoping I'd eliminate them as well. And for free!

Shield took the brunt of the blow. Still, Prime got away in the process. Pursued him up a ladder, only to find he'd led me straight into Autobase, eh? Hate how he always does that. On the other hand, got to love his business acumen. Rather than throw me out, he sent me off with 10,000 Shanix in advance and a contract to kill Cyclonus and Scourge.<ref>This is the only time that Death's Head actually made any money in his dealings with the Transformers.</ref> {{storylink|Headhunt}}

[[File:Deathshead150unicronsmind.jpg|upright=0.6|thumb|Not good times, right?]]
Caught up with Cyclonus and Scourge [[January 1|New Year's Day]], Earth Year [[2008]]. Hrn. The events that followed were not pleasant, right? So much killing, for absolutely no profit.

[[Junkion (planet)|Junk]] was under the thrall of a giant head calling itself [[Unicron]]. The Junkions were busy trying to build their planet into Unicron's new body. Worse still, Unicron put Cyclonus, Scourge and myself under his thrall. Stopped me completing my contract, huh? Yes, those were unpleasant times. Unicron used me to kill the Decepticon leader at the time, Shockwave, and put Cyclonus and Scourge in charge as the new leaders of the Decepticons. Distasteful work, killing without profit. Especially against a foe who deserved better, right?

[[File:Deathshead151portaldash.jpg|left|thumb|Last time I had to deal with any Transformers, hrn?]]
Unicron was playing all the angles—had Cyclonus and Scourge start a campaign against the Autobots that neither side could win, huh? Even had the Junkions build a giant time portal so he'd be able to fetch Galvatron from the past to tie up that loose end.

The mental power of Unicron was incredible, yes? Once I was back on Junk, I was forced to fight Wreck-Gar. Have no particular liking for the Junkion—he's cost me my fee in the past—but I defied Unicron and allowed Wreck-Gar to escape. Punishment followed... but still, it was a small victory, eh?

Also realised a weakness in Unicron's control: The mind link he used to control me was a two-way street. Destroyed a couple of his Junkion stooges, forcing him to punish me and establish the link. This allowed an attack on the astral plane, psychically assaulting him. At the time, I thought that would even the odds. After all, he's just a big robot, right?

Hrn.

Sometimes even I can be a little bit wrong, yes?

Unicron's mind was unfathomable. Impossible to describe it—an infinite swirling miasma of... hrn, I'm not a poet, I'm a hired killer, right? Suffice to say, trying to comprehend him on the astral plane, let alone battle him, was beyond even my abilities. Unicron revealed the reason for it, too—turns out he was a '''dark god of chaos''' bent on destroying the entire universe. Some vendetta with the Transformers' planet or something. Which is why he's afraid of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], eh? No, I don't understand it either, and I was '''in''' Unicron's mind.

Still, the net result is that when Rodimus Prime attacked, we joined forces. Used the mindlink to let Prime attack Unicron directly—and shortly after that, I discovered that Wreck-Gar had planted enough explosives under Unicron to destroy him. Dark god or not, I knew he was finished. So did he, so he recalled Cyclonus and Scourge from Cybertron, and I saw a chance to complete my most recent contract, yes?

Only problem was that the explosives started a little sooner than expected, so I grabbed Cyclonus and Scourge and dived through the time portal with them. Kill them another time, hrn? Too bad it didn't work out that way. No idea what happened to Cyclonus and Scourge, but I ended up careening through the time vortex. Inconvenient, yes? {{storylink|The Legacy of Unicron!}}

[[File:Deathshead151matrixholder.jpg|center|upright=1.95|thumb|Hrn. Haven't really got the hang of these funny captions on this wiki. Can't think of anything amusing to say here, yes?]]

===2005 IDW continuity===
[[File:IDWTheHubDeath'sHeadBWMegatron.jpeg|thumb|upright=1.2|Best to avoid legal entanglements where possible, yes?]]
Getting blown through time portal not a pleasant experience, right? Spent some time ricocheting around the multiverse; ran into the Transformers again when I had a stop-over in another universe and bumped into [[Impactor (G1)|Impactor]]. Think I made an impression on him, yes? {{storylink|Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 5|Impactor's Autopedia article}}

Almost got a cushy job from Rodimus to avenge his death against [[Getaway]], paid in the man's own Matrixy blood! Good deal, hmm? Sadly, Rodimus lived. Easy come, easy go. {{storylink|The Plotters' Club (Part 2): Filling in the Blanks|Filling in the Blanks}}

An alternate incarnation of me made a somewhat-obscured appearance on the [[Timemaze]] monitor. No mistaking that mace attachment, eh? {{storylink|Transformers: Requiem of the Wreckers|Requiem of the Wreckers}}

{{-}}

===''Beast Wars: Uprising''===
Used Cybertronian [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] technology to "double up" with partner [[Spratt]], yes? Not convinced having his voice in my head is a plus, but use any advantage at hand, eh? Still, met like-minded Transformer named [[Devcon (G1)|Devcon]] with an eye for profitable jobs. Took down pirates called [[Star Seeker]]s with no muss, no fuss. Maybe last job on Cybertron for a while, though, yes? Doesn't seem like they'll have much to pay with in the future. {{storylink|Safe Spaces|Star Dasher's profile}}
{{note|Wasn't ''explicitly'' named in the text thanks to rights being owned by [[Marvel Comics]] rather than [[Hasbro]], but it's pretty obvious who he's meant to be, yes?}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: Earth Wars''===
[[Melody Keen]] suggested that I might be doing freelance work for [[Deathsaurus (G1)|Deathsaurus]]. Decided licensing issues would get in the way of my involvement, yes? {{storylink|Transformers: Earth Wars}}

==Notes==
===Transformers notes===
Ahhh, my time with the Transformers, eh? Here's a few juicy tidbits about my relationship with them.

[[File:Deathshead147shockdeath.jpg|thumb|Why do the captions have to be funny anyway? Stupid policy, right? Not very informative.]]
* Turns out I was the centre of a difference between the Transformers reality chronicled by Marvel US and the reality chronicled by Marvel UK. Hrn. Alternate realities can be a pain. There was an Autobot who was always destined to die and be reborn as a mechanoid named [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Goldbug]]. In one reality, he was killed by some human team called [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]. In the much more interesting timeline I was a part of, it was I who killed him. Clearly, this was the superior timeline, in that case, right?
* When fighting Transformers, I recommend a swift strike to the [[neural cluster]], eh? Weakest spot on any mechanoid from Cybertron.<ref>Death's Head tried to deliver just such a blow to Galvatron, only to have his mace blasted to atoms before he could do it.</ref>
* When I killed Shockwave, I did a thorough job. Even if I wasn't getting paid, huh? Transformers' brains are the key to their life—at least in the timeline I visited. Shockwave's was particularly large for a Transformer, but I still crushed it between thumb and forefinger, yes?
* Including Shockwave, killed only five Transformers in all my dealings with them, eh?
* Only ever got paid once by any Transformer, and I never finished that contract. Hrn. Dealing with them was a nightmare, right?
* Since I don't do much business with the Transformers these days, a bounty hunter called [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] seems to have noticed the gap in the market.<ref>"Lockdown was based on wanting a version of Death’s Head that Hasbro could own."—[https://news.tfw2005.com/2019/08/19/more-transformers-animated-information-from-tfnation-2019-394793 TFW2005 paraphrasing Marty Isenberg at TFNation 2019]</ref> Even named [[Death's Head (Animated)|his ship]] after me. Accept no imitations, hmm?

===External notes===
[[File:Deathshead113timejump.jpg|thumb|My first time jump. Who knew what I was getting myself into?]]
[[File:MarvelInfinite-Death'sHead.jpg|thumb|upright=1.15|Blue doesn't suit me nearly as well, no?]]
Hrm. What else to tell you about myself? So much of it has nothing to do with the Transformers, right? That's why I've separated it off into this additional segment.

* Didn't know my own origin–that business with the other-dimensional wizard Lupex and his consort Pyra–until years later (give or take… tricky to judge when there's so much time travel involved).
* Unicron's time gate left me flying through the [[tardis:Time Vortex|time vortex]] where I bumped, quite literally, into a miscreant being calling itself the [[Doctor]]. [[tardis:Death's Head|Had a few encounters with him]]: First he shrank me to human size, then he transported me to 8162 in a timeline without Transformers. Not all bad, right? More frustrating when he later dumped me on the roof of the Baxter Building.
* The [[Fantastic Four]] were just the first super heroes I met, eh? Iron Man 2020, She-Hulk, [[Thor]], [[Spider-Man]], even the original [[Iron Man]]. Met 'em all, no? Though according to this {{w|Kieron Gillen}} chap, I actually met some of them before I went to the Transformers' universe.<ref>In Gillen's ''S.W.O.R.D.'' in [[2009]], we meet a Death's Head who is still Transformer-sized and picks up the term "freelance peacekeeper" from Hank McCoy.</ref> Why didn't I recognise them later, you ask? Can't remember ''everyone'' I beat up, yes? Be here all day.
* Hrn. Then there's the matter of that possible future (well, relatively speaking for a time traveller such as myself, right?) where I take over the body of the AIM-created monstrosity ''Minion'', becoming the cyborg some have dubbed Death's Head II. Let's… not talk of that further, eh?
* There's another possible future where I kill Minion and don't die myself. Much prefer that one, right?<ref>In ''What If?'' Volume 2, issue 54. The last Death's Head collaboration between Simon Furman and Geoff Senior, his creators. This is also the only Death's Head appearance where he uses his face tusks in battle.</ref>
* As to the comic books which have chronicled my exploits, nearly all my tales had been recounted by [[Simon Furman]], until his untimely death,<ref>Remember that interview we told you about? When both Furman and the interviewer stopped listening to DH, he killed Simon Furman, effectively ending the interview. We can only assume that the Simon Furman seen since that time is actually some sort of [[Cloning|clone]] or [[facsimile construct]].</ref> and the first artist to draw me was [[Geoff Senior]]. Marvel liked me so much that they published [http://itcamefromdarkmoor.blogspot.com/2008/04/deaths-head-and-high-noon-tex.html a one-page story about me] (drawn by some fleshling named [[Bryan Hitch]]<ref>{{citesocial|quote=Draw Death's Head Day cometh & he's 35 years young so here's another fabuloso DH fact: High Noon Tex was fast-tracked to make DH a Marvel character, written on a napkin by me and drawn overnight by 16-year old @THEBRYANHITCH at a UKAC*. *UK Comic Art con|link=https://twitter.com/SimonFurman3/status/1504018976619253764|name=Simon Furman|site=Twitter|year=2022|month=03|day=16|(defunct=)}}</ref>) in various Marvel mags to prevent [[Hasbro]] from securing [[copyright|the rights]] to my adventures. Now, the artist's signature dates that comic to 1988,<ref>{{citesocial|quote=I'm pretty sure I was 17, maybe about to be 18. I was 16 when you and Starkers first gave me the Action Force work and turned 17 whilst doing that first story. So I was 17 when I did the first Transformers work and DH came a little after that. I was much older...|link=https://twitter.com/THEBRYANHITCH/status/1504030171929665536|name=Bryan Hitch|site=Twitter|year=2022|month=03|day=16|(defunct=)}}</ref> meaning that if it really was published in 1987, pre-dating my exploits with the Transformers as Marvel claims, there must have been time-travel involved, hmm? Or else it's a little fib—wouldn't you know, the '88 was removed from the signature when the strip was [[Transformers: Fallen Angel|reprinted]] by [[Titan Books]]. Have to admire that kind of mercenary cunning, right?
* There's reportedly a third creature called Death's Head out there. Hrn, they were a legion of alien robots that bothered the [[Hulk|Incredible Hulk]] on the planet Sakaar.<ref>Marvel Comics' "[[fandom:marvel:Planet Hulk|Planet Hulk]]" event published in the pages of the ''Incredible Hulk'' (Vol. 2) ongoing series in [[2006]].</ref> On an alternate future Earth, one of these robots was bonded to a synthetic duplicate of the sentient energy-force known as the Uni-Power—he was Death's Head 3.0. Reportedly, he also understood the importance of freelance peacekeeping, yes? Apparently, his adventures were also penned by the fleshling known as Furman.
* Made a ''big'' impression on ''Transformers'' readers who became writers, you know? That Gillen says "if Impactor was our Jean Grey, Death's Head was our [[Wolverine (Marvel)|Wolverine]]". (Obviously better than him, not all that weird hair, right?) That's why I just keep coming back, yes? <ref>[http://www.newsarama.com/18988-deaths-head-is-cool-yes-marvels-uk-import-poised-for-push.html Newsarama: "DEATH’S HEAD Is Cool, Yes? Marvel’s UK Import Poised for Push"], and as well as the X-Men comparison, Gillen adds "Who didn't love Death's Head? He was great."</ref>
* While I'm not an official ''Transformers'' product, I have received the toy treatment through Hasbro's ''Marvel Infinite'' series as well as a little figure in a game called Heroclix. Who knew freelance peace-keeping agents were popular amongst younger beings?
* That Killatoa fellow in Furman and Senior's ''[http://to-the-death.com/ To The Death]'' sure seems a lot like me, though considerably less handsome. Should sue, yes?

==External links==
*{{w|Death's Head}} at Wikipedia
*[[wikia:Marvel:Death's Head (Styrakos)|Death's Head]] at Marvel Database
*[https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Death%27s_Head Death's Head] at Tardis Wiki, the ''Doctor Who'' Wiki
*[http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/deathsheadfpa.htm Death's Head I and II info] at the Marvel Universe Appendix

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Beast Wars: Uprising characters]]
[[Category:Bounty hunters]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) aliens]]
[[Category:Marvel Generation 1 aliens]]
[[Category:Marvel characters]]
[[Category:Robots]]

Dalek

2024-04-24T09:56:18Z

Derik: /* External links */

[[File:FallAndRiseOctus01.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|EX-TER-MI-NATE! EX-TER-MI-NATE!]]
A '''Dalek''' is some kind of creature or object from [[Skaro]] that an unknown [[Doctor (Doctor Who)|Doctor]] might be very concerned about. Some [[Transformer]]s have a Dalek-form as an [[alternate mode]]. They are somehow associated with the word "exterminate".

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics====
{{noteukexclusive|Daleks}}
[[File:To A Power Unknown - Dalek Panel.jpg|left|thumb|DALEKS ARE THE MASTERS OF BBC RADIO FOURRRRRR!]]
[[Starscream (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Starscream]] flew over the [[United Kingdom|English]] countryside, picking up transmissions involving, among other things, Daleks. {{storylink|To a Power Unknown!}}

Some time later, [[Octus (G1)|Octus]] served as one of three members of the [[Triumvirate|Triumverate]] that ruled the Decepticons on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. His [[alternate mode]] was that of a Dalek, though how or when he scanned it, or even precisely what it looks like, is unknown. {{storylink|The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire.}}

====''Combat Colin''====
[[File:Christmas with combat colin.jpg|thumb|upright=1.3]]
In [[1989]], a Dalek attended [[Colin Doobrey-Smiff|Colin]] and [[Semi-Automatic Steve|Steve]]'s [[Christmas]] party in the [[Combat Shed]]. It was seen hanging around the buffet with the [[Thing]]. {{storylink|Christmas with Combat Colin}}

===''Animated'' cartoon===
[[Octus (Animated)|Octus]], a Decepticon, transformed into a Mark III Travel Machine. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}} This machine is assumed to be somehow connected to the Daleks.
{{--}}

==Notes==
*Daleks are, of course, a race of alien mutant cyborgs that are one of the main antagonists of the Doctor in the long-running British science-fiction programme, ''[[Doctor Who]]''.
*[[Lee Sullivan]] has stated that [[Octus (G1)|Octus]] was supposed to transform into a Dalek. Sullivan is well known to ''Who'' fans for drawing Dalek strips for ''Doctor Who Magazine''.
*A "Mark III Travel Machine" is a name the 1975 serial ''{{w|Genesis of the Daleks}}'' retroactively gave to the metal exoskeletons Daleks ride around in. The mad scientist {{w|Davros}} invented them to give the mobility to the race he bioengineered to be the superior form of his native Kaleds. Don't say TFWiki never teaches you anything.

==External links==
*{{w|Dalek}}s at Wikipedia
*[https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Dalek Daleks] at Tardis Wiki, the ''Doctor Who'' Wiki

[[Category:Animated species]]
[[Category:Combat Colin characters]]
[[Category:Earth culture]]
[[Category:Marvel Generation 1 species]]
[[Category:Real-world cultural references]]

Natasha Pyraniac

2024-04-24T09:47:40Z

Derik: /* Notes */ Last one. Hopefully a few links will prod Google to spider the new site.

:''Natasha Pyraniac is a [[human]] from the [[Animated continuity family]]''
{{faceless}}
Though '''Natasha Pyraniac''' appears to be an ordinary, dark-haired woman, in reality, she is 403 years old. Bored with the sterile technological society of the distant future, she built a time machine and used it to travel back to the twenty-second century to cause mischief.

==Fiction==
===''Be the Hero'' books===
{{notemultipath}}
====Time-Quake====
Arriving in [[Detroit]], she teamed up with the [[Decepticon]] [[Blast-X]], providing him with information on the [[Autobot]]s' abilities and weaknesses. What plan the two of them concocted is unclear, but it involved using Pyraniac's time machine to cause temporal distortions across the city. The Autobots eventually traced the distortions to the top floor of the [[Lions Tower]], and Pyraniac was confronted by [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]]. Setting Blast-X on them as a diversion, Pyraniac stepped into her time machine and departed. {{storylink|Time-Quake}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
Pyraniac caused several temporal distortions to [[Malgus 1207.26 Alpha]], which were eventually corrected. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

===''TransTech''===
An iteration of Doctor Pyraniac spoiled the ending of ''[[Star Wars (franchise)|Star Wars]]'' Episode LXXIV to [[Rook (TransTech)|Rook]]. {{storylink|Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News Reporter|Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News, 2015/05/04}}

==Notes==
*Natasha owes much of her back story and character to ''[[Doctor Who]]'', in large part to the character of {{w|Rani (Doctor Who)|the Rani}}. Py''rani''ac, get it?

==External links==
* [https://tardis.wiki/wiki/The_Rani The Rani] on the ''Doctor Who'' wiki

{{DEFAULTSORT:Pyraniac, Natasha}}
[[Category:Animated humans]]
[[Category:European-original characters]]
[[Category:Prose-only characters]]
[[Category:Scientists]]

Doctor Who

2024-04-24T09:44:29Z

Derik: /* External links */ The post-exit site is basically ogooglebar due to Canonical URLs.

'''''Doctor Who''''' is a [[BBC]] [[television]] show featuring [[time travel]]. It might, just maybe, have something to do with the [[Doctor]].

==Fiction==
===2005 IDW continuity===
[[Hunter O'Nion]] told [[Ratchet (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Ratchet]] that he had plenty of TV shows to catch up on, including ''Doctor Who''. {{storylink|Our Steps Will Always Rhyme}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Vector Prime]] enjoyed ''Doctor Who'', despite the show depicting time travel inaccurately. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

===''Bumblebee'' film===
[[Memo]] had a ''Doctor Who'' poster in his room. {{storylink|Bumblebee (film)|Bumblebee}}

==Notes==
* Various [[Marvel Comics|Marvel UK]] ''Transformers'' creators have written for ''Doctor Who Magazine'', itself a Marvel UK title:
** [[Simon Furman]] wrote several stories at the same time he was writing for the [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|Marvel ''Transformers'' comic]]. This included the first crossover between [[Death's Head (G1)|Death's Head]] and the Doctor, and a Death's Head story featuring ''DWM'' character Keepsake.
** [[Dan Abnett]] wrote a number of ''Magazine'' strips in the late 80s and early 90s, as well as ''The Incomplete Death's Head''.
** [[Steve Parkhouse]] and [[John Ridgway]] are famous in ''Who'' fandom for their work on the ''Magazine'', which included a long run of Sixth Doctor strips. Sleepy [[Stansham]] is not too far removed from Stockbridge, a sleepy village from Parkhouse's strips.
** [[Mike Collins]] has a lengthy, still-going association with the strip.
* The [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|UK Marvel Generation 1 comic]] featured [[Octus (G1)|Octus]], who has a [[Dalek]] alt-mode, and the [[Ghost Stories|2017 ''Transformers'' annual]] has a generic Transformer based on the character {{w|K9 (Doctor Who)|K9}}.
* The character [[Natasha Pyraniac]] from the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' adventure [[Time-Quake]] seems to be based on / influenced by one of the Doctor's foes, {{w|The Rani (Doctor Who)|The Rani}}.
* Other ''Doctor Who'' references in ''Transformers'' include [[Skaro]], [[Trenzalore]], the [[sonic screwdriver]], and [[Verronian Warp Star]]s.
* The Ask Vector Prime [[:File:AskVectorPrimeLogo.jpg|logo]] is a parody of the ''Doctor Who'' [https://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/features/galleries/gallery_new_logo_wallpaper logo] used from 2010 to 2014.
* In a 2013 episode of ''Doctor Who'', "{{w|The Crimson Horror}}," the character Clara Oswald is shown to have a [[Galvatron (G1)/toys#The Transformers|G1 Galvatron]] figure.

==External links==
* [https://tardis.wiki/ TARDIS Wiki], the ''Doctor Who'' wiki
* ''{{w|Doctor Who}}'' at Wikipedia

[[Category:Bumblebee]]
[[Category:Real-world cultural references]]
[[Category:Television programs]]

Doctor

2024-04-24T09:39:24Z

Derik: /* External links */ redirecting link to the non-Fandom wiki all of the editors decamped to.

{{disambig3|Doctor}}
[[File:To A Power Unknown - Dalek Panel.jpg|thumb|If the TARDIS ever lands on Cybertron...]]
'''Doctor''' is a being whose existence is indicated in radio wave communication. He is presumably concerned about the [[Dalek]]s.

==Fiction==
===Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics===
{{noteukexclusive|Doctor}}
[[Starscream (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Starscream]] flew over the [[United Kingdom|English]] countryside, picking up transmissions involving, among other things, Doctor. {{storylink|To a Power Unknown!}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Vector Prime]] theorized that the Doctor hailed from the [[Omniverse]] and occasionally visits the Transformers [[multiverse]]. {{storylink|Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#May 28, 2015|Ask Vector Prime}}

[[Re-Volt]] once dressed as the Doctor while attending a sci-fi convention. {{storylink|Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|Renegade Rhetoric}}

===''Bumblebee'' film===
[[Memo]] had a couple of posters of the fourth incarnation of the Doctor in his room. {{storylink|Bumblebee (film)|Bumblebee}}

==Notes==
[[File:CybertronianHomesickBlues-SkidsRung.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|"I am definitely a madman who transforms into a boxy little car."]]
*"Doctor" is, of course, the Doctor, the main character of the long-running British science-fiction programme, ''[[Doctor Who]]''. Starscream is ''probably'' picking up ''{{w|Revelation of the Daleks}}'', a {{w|Colin Baker}} serial. But...
*...the Doctor [[tardis:Death's Head|has twice encountered]] [[Death's Head (G1)|Death's Head]] in the ''{{w|Doctor Who Magazine}}'' comic strips, once in Death's Head's own comic (where ''DWM'' character Keepsake made a separate appearance), and a fourth time in the ''The Incomplete Death's Head'' miniseries. The first of these follows on from "[[The Legacy of Unicron!]]", with Death's Head careening from the Transformers' 2008 right into the TARDIS. And there are potentially some [[Octus (G1)|Daleks]] [[Octus (Animated)|in the]] [[Skaro|''Transformers'' universe]]...
*[[Pyro (G1)#Wings Universe|Pyro Ignatius Spark]]'s personality in "[[Generation 2: Redux]]" seems to be based on {{w|David Tennant}}'s portrayal of the {{w|Tenth Doctor}}.
*[[Skids (G1)#2005 IDW continuity|Skids]]'s [[holomatter]] avatar in [[Cybertronian Homesick Blues|''More than Meets the Eye'' #13]] was based on {{w|Matt Smith (actor)|Matt Smith}}'s {{w|Eleventh Doctor}}. Later, in [[The One Where They Go to Earth|''More than Meets the Eye'' #43]] it resembled {{w|Christopher Eccleston}}'s ''earlier'' {{w|Ninth Doctor}}.
*The last [[Ask Vector Prime]] entry on Facebook showed [[Vector Prime#As a TransTech|Vector Prime]]'s [[:File:AVP Vector and Scorpia do Nebulos.jpg|holomatter avatar]] resembled {{w|Jon Pertwee|Jon Pertwee}}'s {{w|Third Doctor}}.
*The ''[[My Little Pony]]'' character [[Doctor Hooves]] is heavily inspired by the Doctor (Fourth, Tenth, and Eleventh amalgamated).

==External links==
*[https://tardis.wiki/ TARDIS Wiki], the ''Doctor Who'' wiki
*''{{w|Doctor Who}}'' at Wikipedia
*{{w|Doctor (Doctor Who)|Doctor}} at Wikipedia

[[Category:Bumblebee]]
[[Category:Earth culture]]
[[Category:European-original characters]]
[[Category:Real-world cultural references]]
[[Category:Marvel Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

Talk:Cheesecake robot

2023-07-10T16:41:58Z

Derik:

"Cheesecake" robot? Where the slag did they get that name? Or do I want to know? -_- --[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 20:47, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
:Note it has the "nameless" template at the top!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:53, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

For anyone curious about the extra-long bio... (since there's literally ''nothing'' to say about her,) it sorta a mash-up/blender-on-liquefy of the key images of the songs "Lilly Marlene", and "Just Call Out My Name (I'll come Running)", with a patina of a phone sex ad on top... The result is some surprisingly sentimental fluff that balances the exploitation/genuine-encouragement emotions of 1950's pin-ups. ...which feels "right"ish without actually saying anything concrete about the character. (I mention this just in case someone is confused and wonders if she got a bio someplace. No, she did not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:42, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Where'd the name come from, though? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 03:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

::...she's an unnamed character. It's a nickname, just like [[Big Red]].
::Or do you not have 'Cheesecake' as a slang term for "photos of woman posing sexily" where you live? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I guess I don't, then. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 03:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://homepage.mac.com/brons/Art/Cheesecake.html Cheesecake: The art of the Pin-Up] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I've heard of the term before... I didn't know it was that rare a term. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Because apparently all discussion gets lost on Discord these days, when it's suppose to only go there for preliminaries and then be brought up on talk pages, I guess I'll respond here: yes, this article is maybe a bit over the top, but it is literally what happens in the episode, there's nothing to "salvage" because the joke is obvious to everyone. Not every friggin article needs to be turned into milquetoast Wikipedia prose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:25, 4 July 2021 (EDT)

I would just like to say that it is a stain on all fandom that '''BFB EX-01 NICEE''' was not issued in these colors. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 12:41, 10 July 2023 (EDT)

Talk:Cheesecake robot

2023-07-10T16:41:36Z

Derik:

"Cheesecake" robot? Where the slag did they get that name? Or do I want to know? -_- --[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 20:47, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
:Note it has the "nameless" template at the top!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:53, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

For anyone curious about the extra-long bio... (since there's literally ''nothing'' to say about her,) it sorta a mash-up/blender-on-liquefy of the key images of the songs "Lilly Marlene", and "Just Call Out My Name (I'll come Running)", with a patina of a phone sex ad on top... The result is some surprisingly sentimental fluff that balances the exploitation/genuine-encouragement emotions of 1950's pin-ups. ...which feels "right"ish without actually saying anything concrete about the character. (I mention this just in case someone is confused and wonders if she got a bio someplace. No, she did not.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:42, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Where'd the name come from, though? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 03:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

::...she's an unnamed character. It's a nickname, just like [[Big Red]].
::Or do you not have 'Cheesecake' as a slang term for "photos of woman posing sexily" where you live? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I guess I don't, then. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 03:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://homepage.mac.com/brons/Art/Cheesecake.html Cheesecake: The art of the Pin-Up] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I've heard of the term before... I didn't know it was that rare a term. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Because apparently all discussion gets lost on Discord these days, when it's suppose to only go there for preliminaries and then be brought up on talk pages, I guess I'll respond here: yes, this article is maybe a bit over the top, but it is literally what happens in the episode, there's nothing to "salvage" because the joke is obvious to everyone. Not every friggin article needs to be turned into milquetoast Wikipedia prose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:25, 4 July 2021 (EDT)

I would just like to say that it is a stain on all fandom that '''BFB EX-01 NICEE''' was not issues in these colors. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 12:41, 10 July 2023 (EDT)

Hojoni

2022-07-04T00:44:33Z

Derik: /* Notes */

:''Hojoni is a film about a fictional big green, fire-snortin' lizard from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
[[File:Hojoni.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Oh, no! There goes Tokyo!]]

'''''Hojoni''''' is a film starring the title monster.

{{quote|このばかみたいな映画みたことないよ!|A Japanese patron utters the Japanese equivalent of "I've never before seen such a stupid movie!"|"[[Kremzeek!]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''The Transformers'' cartoon===
A billboard in [[Japan]] advertised ''Hojoni''. {{storylink|Kremzeek!}}

===''The AllSpark Almanac''===
Hojoni was an [[Inhumanoid]]. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

==Notes==
* Hojoni is clearly a fictionalized version of the famous movie monster [[Godzilla]].
* Hojoni probably originates as a reference to the Hōjō samurai clan whose ''mon'' (emblem) is known as 'The Three Dragonscales.' This would make a literal translation of 'Hojoni' ''Demon of the Northern Light''.

[[Category:Films]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Inhumanoids]]
[[Category:Monsters]]

Hojoni

2022-07-04T00:43:57Z

Derik: /* Notes */ I may have been researching samurai recently.

:''Hojoni is a film about a fictional big green, fire-snortin' lizard from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
[[File:Hojoni.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Oh, no! There goes Tokyo!]]

'''''Hojoni''''' is a film starring the title monster.

{{quote|このばかみたいな映画みたことないよ!|A Japanese patron utters the Japanese equivalent of "I've never before seen such a stupid movie!"|"[[Kremzeek!]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''The Transformers'' cartoon===
A billboard in [[Japan]] advertised ''Hojoni''. {{storylink|Kremzeek!}}

===''The AllSpark Almanac''===
Hojoni was an [[Inhumanoid]]. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

==Notes==
* Hojoni is clearly a fictionalized version of the famous movie monster [[Godzilla]].
* Hojoni probably originates as a reference to the Hōjō samurai clan whose mon (emblem) is known as 'The Three Dragonscales.' This would make a literal translation of 'Hojoni' ''Demon of the Northern Light''.

[[Category:Films]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Inhumanoids]]
[[Category:Monsters]]

Stripes

2021-12-08T05:50:37Z

Derik: A Decepticon in the Balvintron set, so adding that faction logo

{{faction|autobot|autobird|decepticon}}
:''Stripes is an [[Autobot]] [[Autobot Mini-Cassette|Mini-Cassette]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Stripes bio image.jpg|thumb|400px|Saved from the fires of "Category:Things that don't exist".]]
'''Stripes''' is little more than animal. A [[nitrotiger]] native to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Stripes was taken in, trained, and given the ability to transform. As part of his "evolution", he was outfitted with a battle harness that contains AI; this AI carries out offensive and defensive maneuvers, whether Stripes desires it or not.<ref>''Encore'' Stripes pack-in bio</ref>

{{TOCclear}}

==Fiction==
===Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''Legends'' comic====
[[File:Controverse TigertrackStripes.jpg|thumb|right|150px]]

In the late 1980s, Stripes and [[Tigertrack]] tried to protect the [[Transform Super Cog]] in the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'' from being stolen by the [[Decepticon]]s, but the [[Battlecharger]]s were able to snatch it from right under their noses. {{Storylink|Slugslinger's Ambition}}

====Controverse====
In early [[2011]] at the trial of [[Primacron]] by the [[Galactic Court]], Stripes and Tigertrack acted as sentries surveying the delegates and interested parties appearing for the court hearings. When the Decepticons attacked, Primacron took the opportunity to free himself and assume control of the [[Primitive]]s present. Stripes broke free of his control harness when he responded to Primacron's whistle, and helped Primacron subdue his [[Quintesson]] judge. {{storylink|Controverse}}

===''Recordicons''===
[[Image:Recordicons12-everyone.jpg|left|thumb|300px|]]
Stripes was with [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] when they met up with negative polarity [[Ravage (SG)|Ravage]]. He pointed out to the newcomer that not all of Blaster's minions turned into tapes—some of them turned into [[Tigatron|memory]] [[Cheetor (BW)|sticks]] or [[Blockrock|bombs]]. {{storylink|Recordicons issue 12|Recordicons #12}}
{{-}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
Multiversal observer [[Vector Prime]] remarked that in many realities, [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]'s cassettes included Stripes, [[Stinger (G1)|Stinger]], [[Bolts]], [[Steeljaw (G1)|Cubbie]], and [[Anibot]]s. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/09/24}}

===''Titans Return'' marketing material===
[[File:TPotTM Stripes.jpg|thumb|upright=1.3|left|]]
On the planet [[Caminus (planet)|Caminus]], Stripes and Rewind accompanied Blaster as they pursued [[Skullcruncher (G1)|Skullsmasher]], [[Grax]], and [[Horri-Bull|Rot-Gut]] through the streets. They were ultimately forced to break off when Rot-Gut and Skullsmasher combined, allowing Skullsmasher to deploy a cloud of armor-eating rust and make good their escape. {{storylink|Titans Return: The Power of the Titan Masters}}
{{--}}

==Games==
===''Angry Birds Transformers''===
[[File:ABTF-screen Acc-Stripes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|]]
Stripes is an "Accessory" character for the [[Autobird]]s. When equipped, he increases the speed of his partner's weapon reloading. This bonus can be increased with level upgrades, won from random-prize Crates or in the "[[King Pig|Shockwave]]'s Tower" mini-game.

He can be unlocked by purchasing him with Gems in the Barracks, with Tokens during specific [[Angry Birds Transformers (mobile game)/Challenge Events|Challenge Events]], or won from Crates and Shockwave's Tower. {{storylink|Angry Birds Transformers (mobile game)|Angry Birds Transformers}}

<center>
{|class="wikitable" border="5" style="width:75%" align="center"
|-
! scope="col" width="20%" | '''Autobird'''
! scope="col" width="10%" | '''Rarity'''
! scope="col" width="10%" | '''Body Part'''
! scope="col" width="10%" | '''Gem Cost'''
! scope="col" width="20%" | '''Base Effect'''
! scope="col" width="30%" | '''Notes'''
|-
|[[Bubbles#As Blaster|Blaster]]
|Epic
|Chest
|600
| +20% Faster Reload
| Actually sits on Blaster's shoulder
|}
</center>

===''Transformers: Earth Wars''===
{{charstubgame|{{storylink|Transformers: Earth Wars}}}}

==Toys==
===''Encore''===
[[File:Encoretoy-Stripes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Probably a better name for a tiger than [[Tigatron]].]]
*'''Twincast''' (2012)
**''ID number:'' '''22'''
**''Accessories'': Left & right cannons, cassette case

:''[[Transformers Encore|Encore]]'' "Cybertron Stripes" is an orange, silver, and black tiger-based [[redeco]] of [[Ravage (G1)/toys#Generation 1|Ravage]], included with ''Encore'' [[Blaster (G1)/toys#Encore|Twincast]] and [[Nightstalker (G1)#Encore|Nightstalker]]. He gets [[Steeljaw (G1)#Generation 1|Steeljaw]]'s weapons in gold chrome (rather than the orange color featured in promotional photos). As was the case with most of the other cassettes packed with Twincast's other releases, Stripes sports a different sticker in place of his cassette spool image; an image of [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] which reveals the city-bot's weak spots when viewed through Twincast's clear-red chest door (in the same way [[Tech Spec]] decoders work).

: This toy was also used to make [[Howlback (G1)#Collector's Edition|Howlback]] and [[Glit (KP)#Kiss Players|Glit]].
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Cybertron/Stripes/stripes.htm More information on Stripes at TFU.info]''
::*''[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers-toys/gallery/encore/stripes/2652/1/ Image gallery of Stripes at Seibertron.com]''

===''Titans Return''===
[[File:Titans-Return-Legends-Class-Stripes.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Changes from tiger, to [[Hooligan (G2)|Hooligan]], to Roy Horn's iPad and back!]]
*'''Autobot Stripes''' (Legends Class, 2016)

:"Autobot Stripes" is part of the first wave of ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' Legends Class toys. He features three modes: "tiger", spy tablet, and jet. His beast mode features a sort of mane on the back of his neck, suggesting that he may have been sculpted as a [[Steeljaw (G1)|Steeljaw]] toy before being given a new identity for ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]''-related reasons. His spy tablet mode features a non-functioning 3.5mm headphone socket, and can fit inside the chest compartment of ''Titans Return'' [[Blaster (G1)/toys#Titans Return|Autobot Blaster]] or his retool [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Titans Return|Soundwave]]. In jet mode, he features a pair of posts to allow a [[Titan Master]] to securely stand on top. Like all Legends Class spy tablets, his stickers are prone to coming off at the edges, particularly in the areas that require transformation such as the wings.

:This mold was retooled into [[Ravage (G1)/toys#Titans Return|Ravage]] and ''[[Transformers: Bumblebee (toyline)|Bumblebee]]'' [[Howlback (BB)#Toys|Howlback]]. Stripes was a commonly-found [[shelfwarmer]] of the ''Titans Return'' line alongside fellow Legends Class [[Rewind (G1)#Generations|Autobot Rewind]].

::*''[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers-toys/gallery/titans-return/stripes/4131/1/ Image gallery of ''Titans Return'' Stripes at Seibertron.com]''
{{--}}

===''Masterpiece''===
[[File:TF-MP-Stripes.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|right|If Ravage were in ''Generation 2''.]]
*'''Cassettbot VS Cassettron''' ([[December 23]], [[2017]])
**''Japanese ID number'': '''MP-15/16E'''
**''Accessories:'' Pink tape case

:Issued in a limited edition "Encore" ''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' set available from [[TakaraTomy Mall]], along with [[Nightstalker (G1)#Masterpiece|Nightstalker]], [[Wingthing (G1)#Masterpiece|Wingthing]], and [[Enemy (G1)#Masterpiece|Enemy]], "Cybertron Stripes" is a retool and redeco of ''Masterpiece'' [[Ravage (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|Jaguar]]. Aside from the color scheme changes to suit the character's tiger theme, the weapon detail on the back legs has been remolded to resemble the gold weapons the ''Encore'' version "borrowed" from Steeljaw.

:If purchased from a seller supplied by Hasbro Asia, the set includes a [[collector coin]], featuring Enemy's face on one side and the Autobot logo and names of all the included characters on the opposite side. The coin is mounted in a card resembling a cassette, similar to the cards housing the coins for MP-15 and MP-16, but styled like Enemy's cassette mode on the "A" side, while the "B" side resembles Stripes's cassette mode.<ref>[https://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/collector-coin-for-transformers-masterpiece-mp15-16e-cassettbot-vs-cassetron/40401/ Collector Coin for Transformers Masterpiece MP-15 / 16-E Cassettbot vs Cassetron]</ref>
{{--}}

===''Collaborative''===
[[File:Collab-toy-Vibras-Stripes.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|We liked him before he was popular.]]
*'''J. Balvintron / Energia Buzzaw & Vibras Stripes''' ([[2021]])
**''Accessories:'' Left & right missiles

:The eighth release in the ''[[Transformers Collaborative|Collaborative]]'' line, "Vibras Stripes" is a redeco of his original ''Encore'' release.

:Vibras is the Spanish word for "vibes", in case you were wondering.

:Vibras Stripes's color deco in tiger mode is fairly close to his ''Encore'' toy. His cassette mode has a pair of googly eyes and an offset pair of teeth tampographed on, in line with cover art for J. Balvin's ''Vibras''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibras_(album)] album. His included weapons are gold versions of Ravage's missiles as opposed to Steeljaw's cannons. He comes packaged with [[J. Balvintron#Toys|J. Balvintron]] and [[Buzzsaw (G1)/toys#Collaborative|Energia Buzzaw]]. This set is exclusive to the [[NTWRK]] app, with pre-orders beginning on [[July 13]], 2021 and shipping in November of that year.
{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:Stripes-TFTMdraft.jpg|right|thumb|280px||How long until Cubbie, Stinger and Bolts have toys?]]
*Stripes originated in an early draft for ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', where he was released out of Blaster's chest to combat the [[Decepticon]] Mini-Cassettes during the [[Battle of Autobot City]]. Stripes would have snapped at [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]], scaring him. In the finished movie, [[Ramhorn (G1)|Ramhorn]] replaced Stripes in battling Ratbat. Since he was written out of his only intended appearance before publication, he is among the most obscure established characters to ever be given a toy—and that's saying something when he's coming out alongside [[Nightstalker (G1)|a one-shot prose-only UK character]] and [[Enemy (G1)|a decapitated radio]]. He held that record until [[Solarbot]] came around in [[2013]].
*His function is "[[Beastformer|Battle Beast]]" (戦闘獣 ''Sentō Jū'').
*Both Stripes's ''Encore'' and ''Masterpiece'' bios state his species as a nitrotiger, while his ''Titans Return'' bio says he's a cybertiger.

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Stripes''' (ストライプス ''Sutoraipusu'')

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Autobirds]]
[[Category:Cats]]
[[Category:Classics Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Collaborative]]
[[Category:Legends Autobots]]
[[Category:Masterpiece]]
[[Category:Mini-Cassettes]]
[[Category:Titans Return Autobots]]

Talk:Quintesson Bailiff

2021-12-05T10:12:34Z

Derik: /* Character model colors */

You know... this has always bugged me, are we sure these guys are the same species as the quintesson. yes i know the executioner the only other type that have limbs, but considering these guys have alt-modes. Well you gotta admit it raises questions (Really hope they bring back a 'Ask Vector prime' like segment.--[[User:Projectus|Projectus]] ([[User talk:Projectus|talk]]) 22:24, 7 September 2020 (EDT)
: Also that that one guy with inquirata (Can't forget him).--[[User:Projectus|Projectus]] ([[User talk:Projectus|talk]]) 22:29, 7 September 2020 (EDT)

== Character model colors ==

I'm not a sensitive person, but as the person who did the 'wrong colored character model' back in the day, I would like to point out that it is [https://ibb.co/JBbtddV closer to the actual character as it appears onscreen] than the actual color model. This is due to the lighting and color grading on the shot.

The image linked above uses screen captures from the 4K open matte encode, but the DVD source I was using at the time had weaker blues and thus everything was a muddier red -- meaning that the model was 100% accurate to what was seen onscreen. I don't debate that the brighter model is the 'correct' one as a representation of how the character actually looks. I just don't think 'wrong' is necessarily the right way of describing it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 21:05, 4 December 2021 (EST)

:Yeah, people have a habit of being a bit over-the-top about this stuff. I've updated the write-ups here, on the image description, and the citogenesis sandbox to use more neutral (and accurate) language. Hope that addresses it? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 21:41, 4 December 2021 (EST)
:: Hmm, interesting. I remember a little while back on the topic of the Bailiff colouration, that [[User:Monzo|Monzo]] had provided screencaps from different releases of the movie released by different companies, some had the colours look closer to the original colour guide used for the movie/cartoon, while others were closer to the colours you had used. This was also comparing VHS, DVD and maybe even Blu-Ray versions of the movie, if I recall correctly and possibly even US vs UK home media releases. From memory, my copy of the 25th Anniversary Shout! Factory boxset also has a closer colour match to the original colour guide, so perhaps part of this was down to a Kid Rhino thing? Then again, I guess taking an old animation from 30 odd years ago and trying to stretch its lifespan out for various different re-releases over those 30 odd years, would also take a toll on its quality too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 21:49, 4 December 2021 (EST)
:::I *think* I used the Kid Rhino release as source, yes.
:::The different colors of the DVDs stem from which film master they scanned and how they color graded the footage. And that is common to vary from one transfer to another. IITC the 30th anniversary (?) release was notorious for cranking the saturation through the roof on the entire movie.... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 05:12, 5 December 2021 (EST)

Talk:Quintesson Bailiff

2021-12-05T02:05:51Z

Derik: /* Character model colors */ new section

User talk:Derik

2021-11-21T05:46:07Z

Derik: /* Old templates */

=Archive=
My complete user talk history (including archived years) is viewable at: [[User talk:Derik/Archive]].
=[[User_Talk:Derik/2006|2006]] (Archived)=
{{columnlist|3|size=smaller|
* Walky: "Storylinks shouldn't float!"
* Continuity range box (proposal)
* Explicit continuity drilldown (proposal)
* Passive-aggressive edit memos are not good communication
* [[User:Monzo|Monzo]] own the the G2 annual, but hasn't scanned it.
* Derik confirms he's [http://www.grnrngr.com/essay1.html this guy].
}}

=[[User_Talk:Derik/2007|2007]] (Archived)=
{{columnlist|3|size=smaller|
* [[User:Rotty]] demands I be banned because i voted for a different wikia in a poll for a weekly feature.
* Don't post spoielrs from novels
*[[User:Crockalley]] calls my userpic 'the cutest catboy he's ever seen.'
* Screed at people in a series of edit memos is impolite.
*[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:EDC_Zodiac.jpg Autotrooper divisions]
* Derik should remember that is it not other users jobs to fix his opinionated edits.
* Descriptive filenames are better.
}}
=[[User_Talk:Derik/2008|2008]] (Archived)=
{{columnlist|3|size=smaller|
*Don't put templates in categories
*Mosaics are not canon
*Undermining the Wikia adblock.
*''Archive is incomplete due to the [[Project:Bookworm Crash|Bookworm Crash]].''
}}

=2009=

==Post restoration Wikia link clean up==
I recall you telling us last year about something you did that would remove all 250,000-odd links that wikia inserted into every page and every revision of every page. Would you be able to do the same again after we've restored our articles? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:00, 18 March 2009 (EDT)
:I made alterations to the ''import'' script, so they never even ''got'' to our database. They're ''in'' now, they need to be edited out one by one.
:...I'll look at maybe setting up an edit script. 27,000+ individual edits in history. JOY. :p
::Oh, for God's Sake :( So it needs to be done manually? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:30, 18 March 2009 (EDT)
:::After I saw this (there's really no way to get them out the history?), I looked to see if [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser|AutoWikiBrowser]] could be used to start zapping the Wikia links - no dice, apparently http://tfwiki.net/w2/api.php is out-of-line with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php and [[wikipedia:Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser/User_manual|it needs to be the same]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:59, 18 March 2009 (EDT)

Uhhh... I don't have a webcomic. And my name's not Tim.

:Don't think too hard about it. I've been calling one of our admins Doug for a year and he never bothered to correct me. (His name is Alan... I think.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:42, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

== The Franchise Navigation Templates ==

I figure that as long as I'm going through everything, I might as well update all the templates to the new look, right?

Question, though: Did I assume right that the plain links above the navigation templates are supposed to be links to the continuity families? (Like, it says "Generation 1" above the Generation 1 template, and "Live action film series" above the 2K7 and ROTF ones.) That stumped me a little when I got to the Headmasters template. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 04:34, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
:They are inconsistent.
:The nav above the 2007 movie (pre-crash) should be "ready," in terms of HTML. IIRC The CSS for the new design was recovered. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:01, 24 March 2009 (EDT)
::Well, I already updated the 2K7, ROTF, and G1 navs based on the cache files that used those templates. I just figured that I might as well update the other franchise headers to use the same format while I was at it (I hate pink, what can I say?) but was stumped over how to translate that one bit of the new template. That line in the G1 and movie templates ends up being readable as a continuity family link, so I was wondering if you meant it that way, so I know how to adapt it to other franchises. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:43, 24 March 2009 (EDT)

== A FYI ==

http://www.emopanda.com/cleanupbot/ - linked from [[:Category:Cleanup by month]] - needs to be updated to fix ''our'' cleanup count, rather than The Other Place's. [Plus, I suspect it may overwrite the category on the page, so please make sure it leaves it in [[:Category:Wiki cleanup]]. Although I half more than half a mind to just move the subcats from C:CbM to C:WC and save a redundant layer...] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:58, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:I don't think it actually updates their account either, it hadn't worked since the Monaco upgrade.
:Hrm... you did just give me an idea though!

And a question: Is it safe to put <nowiki>{{speedy}}</nowiki> on the twelve month templates at the start of [[:Category:Real-world_events_by_day]]? They don't APPEAR to be used, but I'd like to double-check that [[Template:Cal-date]] doesn't use them in any way first. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 16:55, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:Nope! They're used for navigation! Clicking on a month in the date nav brings you to the 12-month calendar, because [[July]] redirect to [[Calendar]]. But clicking the "NEXT-MONTH" button takes you to [[Template:August]], which is ''just'' the month of August, unlike [[August]], which is the full 366 day calendar.
:The idea being... if you click next-month, you're looking for a near-ish date. And if you click on the month itself, you're looking to navigate within the full year. Separating the two display options out with templates actually does (or at least ''should'') make quickly navigating dates much easier, more "natural" to how people are likely to search dates. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:42, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::Well, could you do something to stop them appearing on [[Special:Unusedtemplates]], if they're actually necessary, then?
::It seems a hellava bodge to be using a template as, in effect, a page - can't you just change the links from (e.g.) <nowiki>[[July]] to [[Calendar|July]]</nowiki> and put the "Templates" in the namespace where they belong? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:10, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::I'll look into it. Part of the reason it's set up like this is simply-- this is the way ti was set up before the crash. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:16, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
::::Admittedly I was thinking before the crash that if the Month links on the day pages are getting redirected to the calendar, they should, well, just actually link directly to the calendar. And the months should be actual pages, yes.
::::In fact, is it possible to have noinclude on a regular page? Because then we could have each of the months be a proper regular page with all of the day pages transcluded into it in noinclude tags, then have that page be transcluded where it needs to be in order to show just the calendar part.
::::(Um. When we have time to actually work on this sort of thing, I mean.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:32, 27 March 2009 (EDT)
:::::This thing you describe is possible... I will think about it, it'd require some re-jiggering, and at least 320 edits. (Every day's page would have to have its code changed.)
:::::Tell you what though-- I ''do'' know a way to get the month templates off the Unused templates page! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:01, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

== Hey ==

Since you worked pretty hard on figuring out [[Staff Sergeant Tracy]]'s name , [[Talk:United States Air Force|help me with this]] :) --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:33, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

== Bot request ==

I have a Deceptitran request. Could links to "Revelation (comic issue)" please move to "Revelation (War and Peace)" and "Revelation (Dreamwave issue)" to "Revelation (The Dark Ages)"? Thanks! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

{{deceptitran
|from=<nowiki>Revelation (comic issue)</nowiki>
|to=Revelation (War and Peace)
|name= - Starfield 21:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
|comment=I have a Deceptitran request. Could links to "Revelation (comic issue)" please move to "Revelation (War and Peace)" and "Revelation (Dreamwave issue)" to "Revelation (The Dark Ages)"? Thanks! - Starfield 21:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
}}
{{deceptitran
|from=<nowiki>Revelation (Dreamwave issue)</nowiki>
|to=Revelation (The Dark Ages)
|name= - Starfield 21:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
|comment=I have a Deceptitran request. Could links to "Revelation (comic issue)" please move to "Revelation (War and Peace)" and "Revelation (Dreamwave issue)" to "Revelation (The Dark Ages)"? Thanks! - Starfield 21:23, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
}}

== The LongArm of the bot... ==

http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Cybertron_Elite_Guard&diff=271888&oldid=267284

Huh? Even besides the fact that it [[Talk:Shockwave (Animated)#Capital A|seems to have been decided]] that the TransWarped credit was an aberration and the page has been reverted to small-a mode... wouldn't it have made more sense to change the link to [[Shockwave (Animated)]] in the first place? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:11, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
:The bot is automated to detect moves and change links accordingly. Since somebody moved [[Longarm Prime|Longarm Prime]] to [[Longarm Prime|LongArm Prime]] (despite the fact that it was a redirect), the bot acted accordingly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:43, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
::No, I add them manually. (I have it scrap the move log for recent moves and choose which ones to add to the queue.)
::I just assumed someone knew what they were doign when they moved LongArm. Not correct? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

== In search of a less stupid cleanup tag. ==

A quandary. I'd ''like'' to make the cleanup tag template automatically datestamp if you neglect to specify one, via currentmonthname and currentyear variables, so it ends up in the proper category. However... if I subst those in the template itself, it will be forever April 2009. If I leave them variables, the date the tag was applied will not be preserved. Thoughts?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:05, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:This thing you say... I do not believe it is possible. The problem is that {{currentday}} will always be updated when the page re-caches. You need the page editor to either enter <nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki> or a <nowiki>subst:</nowiki> command for this sort of "expansion" to happen.
:The only solution I've ever thought of would be to have an off-site 'bot monitor pages in a category "Pages with undated..." and make edits to those pages, adding the dates to the templates. The results wouldn't be perfect, but they'd be more-or-less right.
:But that seems like a LOT of work for the result. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:56, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think I may have found the trick:
:::''A less versatile method for multilevel substitution is with a pair of includeonly tags: they can be used to prevent substitution on the page itself, while not having any effect when transcluding the page. Substitution is prevented by having the template call inside these tags. Substitution is also prevented by having one or both tags anywhere in the template call except inside a parameter definition. Thus the tag(s) can be before, inside, or after "subst:", or inside or after the template name. The positions of the two tags only influence the rendering of the template page itself. If the closing tag is put immediately after the opening tag the full wikitext is rendered, e.g.
::::<nowiki>{{<includeonly></includeonly>subst:tc}}</nowiki> is shown as {{<includeonly></includeonly>subst:tc}}''
:::[[wikipedia:Help:Substitution#Includeonly]]
::Plausible?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:21, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I've read this documentation before, and it makes my head hurt.
:::How does that help us? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:27, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::::On further examination, it doesn't unless the template containing those includeonly tags is ''also'' substituted. Which leaves us no closer. Drat. I shall delve deeper into the nature of transclusion and substitution and pray I don't inadvertently become a cultist of Azathoth.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:30, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::The problem is you want to substitute on the page itself-- you want a 'flattened' date. So that means the editor needs to put in the "subst:." (Or more simply, a <nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki>,) it can't be optionally assigned by the template if non-present, because that would require the template reaching 'up' into the page it's included on to make changes to the base text. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:39, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
We could, I suppose, create something to the effect of <nowiki>{{lazycleanuptag}}</nowiki> which forces substitution and only outputs <nowiki>{{cleanup|{{subst:currentmonthname}} {{subst:currentyear}}|}}</nowiki> ...but that seems like going 'round Robin Hood's barn to get there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:35, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:And of course misses the point entirely of plunking a date tag in when people forget to do so, the original point of this exercise. It is for the most part ''admitting defeat''.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:36, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::See, I didn't think that was how that worked. See if you can make that work, with exactly that substitution. If it does we at least have a starting point. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:43, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:::It does work. In that if I use the includeonly trick on the subst bits in that, and ''also'' subst the shell template itself, said template would then leave in the article text <nowiki>{{cleanup|April 2009}}</nowiki>, being a multi-level substitution as described in the mediawiki help. But, as I said above, it ''only'' works if the template using the includeonly trick is also substituted. The date variables get rendered flat, and the lazy cleanup template also gets reduced to standard wiki text, but any templates it calls aren't substituted, and thus still render as genuine transclusions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:50, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
::::The problem with that approach being that [[wikipedia:Help:Substitution#Forced_substitution|forced substitution]] is pretty much nonexistent, beyond a simple nag message.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:56, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

==Bot request for image tagging==
I've noticed that all of the images that haven't had their descriptions restored have the text "Importing image file" instead. Can we have Deceptitran replace all instances of that phrase in the image namespace with <nowiki>"{{bookworm|5}}"</nowiki>? I think that'll make that part of the recovery process go much quicker. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:09, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
:Link me an example file! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:00, 24 April 2009 (EDT)
::[[:Image:Stargatebattles_starscream_and_his_ghost.jpg|Perfect example]]. Oh, and I was thinking about it, and it's probably best to replace the phrase with <nowiki>"{{bookworm|5|Description and copyright info}}"</nowiki> just to make sure it's clear. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:25, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

==BW Neo Models ==
So, I'm looking for future projects, and BW II / BW Neo seem like likely candidates. A while back, while we were debating, you posted scans of Deadend http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/deadend_model.jpg that showed several angles. Do you still have access to that book, and would you be willing/able to make some high quality scans? Also, does the book cover the secondary characters like Survive, Bazooka, Bump, Hydra, Sharp Edge. Randy and Sharp Edge? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:05, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

*[[Beast Wars II Encyclopedia|Beast Wars II Guidebook]]
**Big Convoy (full++)
**Longstickupass (full)
**Break (full)
**Stampy (full)
**Chorada (full)
**Heinrad (full)
**Mach Kick (full)
**Lockbuster (full)
**Randy (full-ish)
**Bump (full)
**Sharpedge (full)
**Survive (full)
**True One (fron + transformation)
**High Council (single shot)
**Magmatron ('''front and magamasaur only''', toy control art for other modes)
**Guildart (full)
**Saberback (full)
**Dead End (full)
**Sling (full)
**Archadis (robot front/back only, toy control art for beast mode)
**Hydra (single shot of robot mode only)
**Hardheaded old fart (full)
**Crazybolt (single shot of robot mode only)
**Bazooka ('''control art for all modes, no character models''')
**Vector Sigma (concept sketch)
**Yukikaze (3 views)
**Fuzzy seal things from episode 3 (front on both characters)
**Yukikaze Shuttle (multiple angles)
**Concept art of CR-chambers
**Hideos Spider Monster from episode 9 (partial model set)
**Star Upper (robot + beast, same model seen on his article now-- I colored it for that.)
**NAVI unit (3 angles + claw detail)
**Killerpunch (illo of his arm shooting only-- no proper models)
*[[Beast Wars Theatrical Special Film Book|Beast Wars II Movie Guidebook]]
**Lio Convoy (full)
**Apache (full)
**Tasmania Kid (full)
**Bighorn (full)
**Scuba/Ikard (full)
**Diver (full)
**Insectrons (Full set, but partially obscured. I have their colroed character models in another book to recover detail from...)
**Tripledacus (front only + head detail)
**Jointrons ('''low''' resolution, front and beast only)
**Artemis (several angles)
**Moon (rabbit only)
**Galbatron (full+)
**Megastrom (full)
**Starscream (full)
**BBB (full)
**Dirge (full)
**Thrust (full)
**Autorollers x4 (front, back, + 1 isometric vehicle view)
*[[Beast Wars Neo Big Encyclopaedia]] (despite the name, it is small-format)
**Majin Zarak (monster/aircraft)
**Lio Convoy (full)
**Apache (full)
**Tasmania Kid (full)
**Bighorn (full)
**Diver (full)
**Scuba/Ikard (full)
**Taco Tank (full-- with that name you'd think it belonged to the Jointrons...)
**LioJr.Skywarp/Santon/Magnaboss (full)
**Galbatron (full)
**Gigastrom (full)
**Hellscream (full)
**MaxB (full)
**Dirgegun (full)
**Thrustol (full)
**Optimus Primal (full)
**Majin Zarak (full)

That's what I have for BW-era character models...

'''Major stuff missing:''' Killerpunch, all the Seacons (I have the colored models though-- you can see them on their pages on the wiki.) Some 'sets' are less-than-complete, but might be filled out if you were able to pull lineart back out of the color models. (I have several guidebooks that include colored models-- usually partially obscured by text but potentially useful.)

I am looking for:
* BWII Manga v 2
* Car Robots encyclopedia (whatever its name is-- there was a mini-guidebook published for car that included a bunch of character models. I didn't buy it when I had the chance, which I've eternally regretted.)

...that's probably a more complete answer than you expected. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:40, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

The [[Beast Wars II Super Encyclopedia]] has ''colored'' models for all the pre-angolmois guys, including the missing Seacons. (front angles in both modes only)

The Beast Wars Neo Guidebook of Fuckwin has colored models of ''everyone''. Front angles only again.

Both of these would require some work-- even assuming it's possible to extract lineart from them, they're partially obscured by text and boxes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:56, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

:... aaaaand that is why you kick SO much ass! It looks like between the art I've already got and these guide books, there is VERY little that's missing. Thankfully, I've got Killerpunch (one of the few ancillary characters from Neo I do have). It looks like, assuming you're willing to make some scans / bring some books to Botcon for me to scan, you fill in pretty much all the gaps that I've got. Generally, I CAN extract lineart from color models when necessary, but it isn't my first choice. Looks like I'd be interested in:
::Lockbuster (full)
::Randy (full-ish)
::Bump (full)
::Sharpedge (full)
::Survive (full)
::Hydra (single shot of robot mode only)
::True One (fron + transformation)
::Vector Sigma (concept sketch)
::Fuzzy seal things from episode 3 (front on both characters)
::Concept art of CR-chambers
::Hideos Spider Monster from episode 9 (partial model set)
::Star Upper (robot + beast, same model seen on his article now-- I colored it for that.)
::Gigastrom (full)
::Optimus Primal (full)
::Majin Zarak (full)
:Plus, from [[Beast Wars II Super Encyclopedia]], colored Seacons. From Beast Wars Neo Guidebook of Fuckwin, colored Hydra and Bazooka. That would give full model sets for nearly everyone. Poor Hydra (he's so lonely) and Bazooka may be the only ones who wind up with just fronts. Ironic, since they'll be more work than the others.

:Do you have my email address? Cheers! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
::Actually, I could use better shots of Guiledart's dinosaur mode too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:24, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Ads tot he list.
:::Do you need these toot-sweet, or can it take a few days? (Just determines how much cleanup work I do.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:24, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ideally I'd get it before Botcon. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:21, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== The New Merge Template ==

...*dies laughing* Is all. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:20, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

== Template:Source ==

Trying to get it to match our new copyright tags, and have been mostly successful. Two problems. Trying to flatten out the if statements has met with less than perfect results, and the H2 tag there has forced me to use a bit of a kludge to prevent the TOC from being rendered IN the template. Hoping to get it in the same nice canary yellow and orange color scheme the original box you made for original sources used. Could you have a gander at it?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:28, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Revenge of the Fallen books. ==

I can't say as I really think [[Talk:I Am Optimus Prime (Robot Heroes)|this]] is one.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:40, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

== mfghrthr54tjtyj6t7kj67k5 ==

Seriously, stop bunging a Merge with Spotlight: Sixshot template on random pages, along with the other drunken stuff you've been doing tonight like the "Quatuar" page. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:24, 27 May 2009 (EDT)
:I'm practicing for my drunken rampage during Botcon. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:36, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

== Earthforce/US timeline ==

:''Note: this is not speculation, the UK Letters page confirm the US timeline is a result o the Timestorm.''
Which issue? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:18, 28 May 2009 (EDT)
:I lost my notes on the UK Letters Page when my laptop was stolen-- ask Jim Sorrenson, he's researched the letters pages more recently than I. They say it at least twice. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:40, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bot work ==
Task: Scour the Wiki for all the myriard variant spellings of "Toys"R"Us", change them all to Toys"R"Us (no reversed "R", no spaces, standard quotation marks), make the first mention a Wiki link. Leave the [[Toys"R"Us]] page itself alone, especially the introductory paragraph.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 16:41, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Can your bot handle creating links as well as changing them? I was thinking it'd be nice to go through and link up all dates that aren't linked already. Would promote the date pages and make it easier to catch everything that belongs on each date page. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:54, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:There is a concern that blindly linking to anything that looks like a date will cause more trouble than it solves. What if the text is part of a text link? For example, in disambigs, it's quite common to say ''in <nowiki>[[Transformers (2007)|the 2007 movie]]</nowiki> portion of the...''
:There is no simple way to prevent it from making a mess of those. :( -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:58, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
::Not the years, the months and days. Like "January 1", "May 15", "August 8", etc. I guess those could show up in links too, but I think it'd be a much rarer occurrance. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:08, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
::...potentially. I'll look into it if Scout ever fixes the pagelisting utility I use to generate a master list. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

==Bot Request ==
I was trying to manually swap out [[Beast (planet)|Beest]] with [[Beast (planet) | Beast]] but the wiki delays have got me down. Any chance you can bot it? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:10, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
:Sure. When did the spelling change though? I thought Dreamwave's spelling ruled. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:13, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Actually, we may well have gotten them all. Spelling change was by (small) consensus, based on Metrodome and The Ark using the traditional spelling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:23, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not really sure why we moved it either. We have a name that doesn't require a parenthetical, which was used in English-language media. It can rightly be considered the English name of the planet. I don't know what moving it to a name that needs a parenthetical gains us.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:24, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Avoiding a disambiguation parenthetical shouldn't be a reason for deciding the name of an article-- it leads to stupidity like "All Spark."
::::But yeah... I get Jim's point of "two English-language sources for Beast," but they're both out-fiction sources that're just aping the Japanese name. (Quality of sources vs. quantity, I guess.) I prefer Dreamwave's spelling both because it has primacy and because it's less dumb (I'm not fond of Japan's dead-literal names) without really being a 'renaming.' The fact it removes the need for disambiguation is a plus, but not an active factor.
::::And it's worth pointing out that "Beast (G1)" isn't a very good parenthetical for the Dinobot combiner when Beest has appeared in Dreamwave's Transformers Generation 1 comics.
::::I don't actually care enough to ''contribute'' to that debate, but feel cree to carbon-copy my comments if they seem helpful. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:16, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

==The Void==
Seriously, how do you undo that transparency? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:42, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
:<tt>Opacity:.5;</tt> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:49, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
::I have no idea where that setting is or how you're changing it without it registering in the History, but I do appreciate that you've changed it back. Thank you. (As the one who came up with the gag of the page in the first place, I'm a little defensive of it.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:12, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
:::It's not on the page-- it's in the sitewide CSS. I have a [http://emopanda.com/tmp/tfwiki_tmp_global.css rapid-development CSS file] loaded off ''my'' web-space as an include in TFWiki's <tt>common.css</tt> file. The ideas is that since only admins can edit <tt>common.css</tt> and since I do a fair amount of our template work... I have a file that can be easily edited, so you can make 50-60 changes while testing/developing template code.
:::In ''theory'' you could do this by yourself and then tell people to edit their personal .css file so they could see the changes... but in ''practice'' the result is that only 5 people would ever bother, even for major proposed changes-- and twice that number would look at a proposed template and say "it looks messed up" because they were lacking the .css for 'em.
:::(When Rosh and Jessye were developing styles for Monacobook and the main page, we just threw their code into the temp file so everyone could see it and respond easily.)
:::If something's ''really'' wild and out there, it can be tested using [[User:Derik/kired_tools|Kired Tools]], and is only visible to users who've installed the tools... but KT came later-- and anyway for 90% of stuff the rapid-development file is better-suited.
:::The idea is that ''eventually'' CSS changes, once they're completely solid, will migrate to the central common.css file. In practice... some of this code has been there for more than a year-- but I don't think I've gone more than 3 days ''without'' making some sort of edit to the file-- either for a new template or to accommodate a minor template tweak someone else wanted. The "button" code for example (used for the previous/next buttons) has been tweaked slightly with every new template that uses it. (Eventually I'll probably gut it and we'll get a generalized version made which can migrate to <tt>common.css</tt>.)
:::Oh-- and to answer your question re: the void specifically... you can set styles for ''specific pages''. The Void was an extreme example. A much simpler one: our main page doesn't display the redundant "Main Page" title which was competing with the acctual ''site title'' (TFWiki.net) in the visual hierarchy.
:::So yeah... that's basically it. If you require quick CSS changes or a test you can bug me. I, in turn, have to be careful and play nice with the demi-godlike power entrusted in me, or I have it taken away. (I've been warned a couple times about the limits of what I should and shouldn't do.) Net-net, everyone benefits and TFWiki.net has some of the nicer-looking templates out there.
:::...this is long. I hope it answers your questions. The seedy underbelly of TFWiki.net developers, with off-site archives and changes that don't show up in history! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:20, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

::::Oh and before I forgety-- I suggest installing [http://getfirebug.com/ Firebug]. It's awesome-- and it woudl have todl you right away 'where' the code that was baffling you on the void page was coming from. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:28, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

== Bot Oddities ==

I've noticed during the SG switch that sometimes, while fixing one link, the bot will at the same time revert a previously changed link ''back'' for some reason. Check out [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Talk%3AMain_Page&diff=345155&oldid=345142 this diff], for instance. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:32, 6 August 2009 (EDT)
:The two edits were made to the same page 4 seconds apart. Probably one was made by the 1-a-minute crontab script and the other was made by the speed-editor (which runs in-browser) and they tripped over one another's feet. (I'll turn off the 1-a-minute editor. The in-browser speed editor should force all the edits to execute in sequence instead of parallel.)
:You say 'sometimes,' have you seen it anywhere else? Normally that would only happen once in a blue moon. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:45, 6 August 2009 (EDT)
::Well, sometimes right now, at least, due to the huge volume of link changes we're running. If you go to the Recent Changes page and show the bot edits, and skim down through it, you can see various instances on a number of pages where the size difference is (0) instead of a negative multiple of 13, meaning it fixed one link but reverted another. (Or there's 2 edits, but the size diff is only -13, etc.)
::Here's just [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Shattered_Glass_%28issue%29&action=history one page as an example], you can see the instances where the size doesn't change, and they seem to match up to the quirky reverts. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:56, 6 August 2009 (EDT)
:::...great, I'm running up against caching lag then. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:28, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

:::::I think when I'm done I'll just re-up all the moved pages "Move all the links again." Only this time instead of 1,400 links, it'll find maybe 30 loose ones.
:::::Ultimately if I re-architectured the 'bot to do ''all'' the pending relinks on a given page instead of making multiple edits the problem would go away. I looked at making such a change this afternoon, but the code changes involved were too complicated. :p -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:31, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

==Faction Icons==
Derik, per [[Template_talk:Factions]], trying to swap out the Armada Unicron symbol for the Blendtron Unicron symbol ... how would I do that? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:43, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
:That's done on [[template:factions/icons]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:46, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
::I can't figure out how, just from that link. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:26, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
:::Mazenoise got it. Once the cache refreshes, the pages should reflect this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:28, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks. (Sorry for your real estate, Derik.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:54, 11 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::Eh, no problem. I point out that [[User:Derik/kired tools|Kired Tools]] adds as 'purge' button @ the top of an article after the 'watch' button, which enables you to force a page to re-cache with a single click. (''Quite'' useful when making changes to templates... you don't have to wait for them to re-cache to see how the result looks.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:05, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

== Template numeracy ==

Just curious, is there a simple way to perform operations on a numeric template variable?

That is, if the template has a variable ''x'', can the template be made to spit out x+1 and x-1? And, taking it a stage further, can it be made to spit these out as a fixed number of digits (that is, if x=5, can it be made to spit out x+1 as 06 and x-1 as 04 without any further intervention?) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:29, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

<nowiki>{{#pad: {{#expr: 1 + 2}} |4|0}}</nowiki> ''<!-- Pad to 4 characters using "0" the result of the expression
* [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions Relevant link with more info.] (This and other useful links can be found in the last section of my userpage. You want anything called "functions." )-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:44, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

::Thanks, I managed to figure out the rest from that :) [It was just to have autogenerated back/forward links on the Marvel cover templates, given that I didn't want to edit 97 pages by hand again and I hadn't been able to figure it out originally. There's still a slight question of styling, but meh, it'll do now] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:13, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

==Sun Raid==
I posted the audio of Sun Raid on my Yahoo Video page. It was among the requests. Credit to Retro Robot Radio and positive feedback would be appreciated. [http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5920762/15412501] [[Special:Contributions/69.14.142.90|69.14.142.90]] 17:32, 7 September 2009 (EDT

:What a piece of work are you, 
:how noble in reason, 
:how infinite in faculties, 
:in form and moving how express and admirable, 
:in action how like an angel, 
:in apprehension how like a god! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:07, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
::Thanks, I just meant give it 5 stars in the Yahoo Video ratings and maybe say "thanks for posting this" in the user comments on that page. I'd been searching for Sun Raid for ages. I think I just need the audio for Decepticon Hostage now. [[Special:Contributions/207.181.17.24|207.181.17.24]] 16:58, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

==I guess this is a job for the bot==
Transfans.net relocated to transfans.co.uk lately, there's a thread about it here: http://transfans.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=112756 - we have a bunch of links to their scans of the UK comic letters pages, so we'll need to sort them before the redirects go away. Cheers, [[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 14:07, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

== Navmenu Work in Progress ==
[[User:Jeysie/Navmenu]]

Sorry I'm taking so long on it, but I can only wrestle with IE for so long before I want to start kicking things, and my cat doesn't deserve that.

(And yeah, I know the design is ugly... that's not my strong point. I figure once the functionality's done, the design can be tweaked.)

(...wait, why did I name this "navmenu"? It's not a freaking navmenu. Oh well, whatev.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:09, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

:Uh, why include {{tl|HMcover}}, {{tl|MarvelUScover}} and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}}? They're all done - there's only 4, 80 and 13 (respectively) of each and they're all uploaded in the right places (unlike the Marvel UK covers, where 91 covers need moved for naming errors [[:Image:MarvelUK-264.jpg|large]] and [[:Image:MarvelUK-319.jpg|small]]. Also, someone needs to figure out the UK copyright situation on them enough to write {{tl|MarvelUKcover}} and {{tl|MarvelUKinterior}}.). Even if you wanted to upload a new version, you wouldn't need to insert those templates all over again.
:[And I can't tell, since I don't have the JS plugins/etc - does the code just spurt out stuff like <nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior}}</nowiki>, or does it include the variables? And if this is for file ''uploading'', why {{tl|badimage}} and the replacedimage template?) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:34, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
::Because I just grabbed every single template in the Image Templates category. I don't actually know if all of those templates are useful or not, I was just interested in the core functionality of the thing. Since the HTML code is just a simple list, those folks who do know what is and isn't useful can easily remove (or add) stuff as needed.
::And, right now all it does is insert the basic template code itself sans variables, using the same wiki code that the Edit Tools bit uses. Derik will have to add back in the JS, as I don't know jack about JS. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:43, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
It spurts out the same code test that is displayed. If we convert the template to javascript (which, to be fair, can be done AFTER the design) we can re-rig it so that it spits out the template WITH all the variables listed and ready to be filled in to make it easier to use. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:23, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
:Re: your Internet Explorer questions... do they perhaps relate to IE not properly registering mouseover events on objects other than A's? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:48, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
::No, IE7 can handle that (at least, it can in the test case... I'm hoping that the wiki's DOCTYPE and whatnot won't screw with it somehow), and there's a relatively easy tweak known as "behaviors" that can duplicate the functionality in IE6. It's more just IE being irritating in how it handles general display compared to FF and Opera, especially when you're fooling around with <tt>position:absolute</tt>. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
:::<nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> IE's stupidity has mostly gone unconscious for me-- I've spent a decade dealing with it. Most of the time I code on Firefox now, and go back and fix any display issues... but that only works because I automatically avoid the types of conflicts that cause IE's worst problems, so no fundamental re-coding it needed, just tweaks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I usually try to avoid the more problematic stuff too, but there's no getting around using position when doing CSS menus. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:00, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

== Note to self... ==

As of {{now|15:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)}} there are 34,321 pages and 3,229 reirects on the wiki. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

==Another bot request==

Is it somehow possible to have Deceptitran add [[:Category:Images by Nelson Yomtov]] to every Marvel US image? -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 06:38, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hmmm... do they all share a common category? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:22, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::Well, there's [[:Category:Marvel US interior images]], which would make this a lot simpler than I thought. The only thing remaining after that would be to hunt down all those images that don't have the {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} template on them.. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 07:30, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Working on it. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:21, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::er- you realize that we have 2,283 images on the wiki with NO description other than "Importing Image File"? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:25, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Could you ''post'' that list somewhere, by any chance? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:21, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'm running some DB queries on my own server now related to it. (I also want to catch all the images whose description is ""; a totally blank page.)
:::::Once ''that's'' in place, ''then'' I'm going to re-code the 'bot (it's currently broken) into something more robust which can better handle our needs (Deceptitran 1.0 would stubbornly refuse to fix some links, wouldn't fix the in-template pagelinks we use, etc.) and use it to flag all the problem images.
:::::You know-- in between doing 6 ''other'' things, like working out a proposal for a total re-think on infobox layout, and a template for ad-hoc category tagging articles related to maintenance projects, writing a generic content-syndication script... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:13, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Would it be easy enough to make the bot just go through changing "Importing Image File" (and the blank pages) to {{tl|Bookworm}} for now? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 15:23, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's essentially what I've got planned, yes.

== Trolls ==

I read your essay on trolls a while back, and I thought it was one of the most concise and clear explanations of troll behavior in a wiki setting that I've seen. If it's okay with you, I'd like to present it as an unofficial essay on the wiki's I work on (obviously crediting you). So
#Is that fine with you?
#Could you provide a link to the original essay, both for crediting and because I'm stupid and can't find it.

Thanks![[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:17, 7 November 2009 (EST)
:Sure, is it the "agree to disagree is not collaborate understanding" rant around Soundwave's profile you're looking for? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:21, 11 November 2009 (EST)
::Oh man, I just realized I never replied to this. I apologize for my rudeness; yes, it was the one about Soundwave's profile.[[Special:Contributions/68.58.56.172|68.58.56.172]] 01:11, 9 December 2010 (EST)

== Year subpages ==

As I've been filling out the year pages, I've noticed that very few of the "subpages" for the year pages have been filled out. And those that have been filled out, don't seem to contain any information that isn't already found on the main year pages. What was the intent of those pages? As is, they seem redundant. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 16:16, 15 November 2009 (EST)
:Trash 'em! We've struggled to figure out what to do with the "year" pages. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:00, 21 November 2009 (EST)
::Ok. You're only saying to trash the subpages, I hope? I think the year pages are still valuable as lists of what was released that year. And by the by, have you seen what I did with [[1985]] or [[1986]] yet? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:59, 21 November 2009 (EST)
:::Yeah, there was this sort of vague idea that the year pages ought to be highly structured... but it just hasn't worked out in practice (no one does the work) to the year pages have languished. If they're finally turning ''into'' something then by all means feel free to trash those early experiments and impose the '''working''' structure. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:55, 21 November 2009 (EST)

== Suite template ==

I made a minor tweak to the suite template, which I've currently got at [[User:Abates/suitetest]]. The reason for it is because the suite template as it's currently engineered seems to generate bogus entries in the WantedPages list for "Optimus Prime (G1)/Merchandise/suite" and so on. As you're the resident template guru, I thought I'd better check with you before storming ahead and implementing it, in case there was some drawback I hadn't thought of with regards to the way I've done it. The only problem I can think of offhand is if it's used on an article with a / in it, for instance if we had "Transformers/G.I. Joe/Gallery". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:57, 9 December 2009 (EST)

==Bot request - redirects cat==
;Disregard.
<s>Now that you've got D'tran back up and working, could you possibly ask him to add any and all redirect pages into Category:Redirects to stop them clogging up [[Special:Uncategorizedpages]], please? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 04:05, 11 December 2009 (EST)</s>
:I'm confused - I don't see any redirects in the Uncategorized Pages list! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:31, 11 December 2009 (EST)
::You know what? You're right. I must be thinking of something else, but I can't think what it is. Ignore me. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 04:43, 11 December 2009 (EST)
:::I probably SHOULD do that with all the recursive redirect templates though... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:18, 29 December 2009 (EST)

== Rounded corners stuff ==
Thought I'd mention the little thing that the next version of Opera will support the <tt>border-radius</tt> property (since IIRC we just have FF & Safari's proprietary rounded border properties). IE still sucks, of course. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:13, 22 December 2009 (EST)
:Ayep, Opera 10.5 definitely has rounded border support. I added tweaks of all of the border-radius things I could find to [[User:Jeysie/monacobook.css|my personal CSS]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:15, 8 March 2010 (EST)

=2010=

==PSX Transmetals==
Hey, Derik. The Playstation version of the Transmetals fighting game won't emulate on my machine. Would you be able to get shots of the player 2 color schemes for the various characters in it, like you did Windrazor? (Is there really only one secondary color scheme per character in the PS version? The N64 game went crazy with 'em. I still need to finish screenshotting those...) -- [[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 08:47, 26 January 2010 (EST)

:[http://emopanda.com/tmp/transmetals/ This] is a page I was working on in 2003 documenting the Tranemetals game which I never got finished. You can download [http://emopanda.com/tmp/transmetals/transmetals.rar a rar of the whole directory here], which includes full-res TGA's of my master screenshots (well, most of 'em. It's kinda a mish-mash.)
:Have at thee! You're free to use anything there! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:23, 26 January 2010 (EST)

== Question ==

I don't suppose you know if there's a way to reskin a particular page, and only that page? I'm trying to do that on another wiki. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 08:58, 15 February 2010 (EST)
:Every page on a wiki has a unique class associated witht he base <BODY> element based on its name. For the main page, this class is "page-Main_Page"
:So to hide the page title on the main page (which would otherwise supurfulously read "Main Page," and our analytics indicated were causing users to think they were not truly at the siteroot) we use the following css:
<pre>.page-Main_Page .firstHeading {
display:none;
}</pre>

I hope that's helpful! You cna find the class-identifier from a page by viewing the source or (easier IMO) using the Firebug extension. (But if you're not a developer, the Firebug extension may be confusing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:56, 15 February 2010 (EST)

:Sorry, but that makes no sense. You see, I'm trying to do something similar to what you were trying to do with [[Shattered Glass (franchise)]] at one point. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:48, 16 February 2010 (EST)
:: <tt>.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise</tt>.
::It's a css class that is assigned to the document root dynamically by the mediawiki software which reflects the name of the page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:52, 16 February 2010 (EST)
:::Right.
:::Sorry, but I'm kinda stuck with the Monaco skin right now, and this stubbornly refuses to work. The closest I ever got was accidentally turning all the text on the target page white. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 04:37, 16 February 2010 (EST)
::::Have you tried hitting it? Try hitting it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:51, 16 February 2010 (EST)
:::::Assuming you're working with your personal styles page...
:::::Many default mediawiki styles are flagged with the "do not override" debug-code. This is terrible practice, but they did it, not us. Many others are id-prefixed (which gives them precedence.) This is '''good''' practice. Both are annoying.
:::::Try something like <tt>.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content h1.firstHeading</tt> (where .firstHeading is whatever class you're trying to affect. More specific rules has precedence, so adding the tag to the class may help too.) If it's still un-cooperative you can use the debug code in the rule. <tt>background-color:pink !important;</tt>.
:::::This, incidentally, is why I use Firebug; it shows you what rules are overriding what. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:43, 16 February 2010 (EST)
::::::Actually, I'm working with the main .css file (One of the perks of being an <s>almighty god</s> admin.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:58, 16 February 2010 (EST)
:::::::By "main" I assume you mean common.css, not the skin base file. (IIRC the skin file requires FTP access to change.)
:::::::What are you trying to do? Maybe I can help. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 16 February 2010 (EST)
::::::::I'm actually stuck with Wikia, so I'm working with MediaWiki:monaco.css.
::::::::Anyway, I'm (pretty much) running a wiki about a text-based RPG on a forum you have most likely never heard of before, and we just introduced a mirrorverse.
::::::::I'm trying to change the skin's colours (which are maroon-ish and grey, if that helps), to light blue and slightly darker gray, thus giving an "inverted colours" appearance" on that page and that page only. If it's possible to reverse the link colours too (blue links are red, red links are blue), that would be nice. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 04:57, 17 February 2010 (EST)
:::::::::shift-refresh to clear your cache if you're not seeing the colors.
<pre>.page-User_talk_Derik #content{
background-color:#cccccc !important;
}

.page-User_talk_Derik #content a.new{
color:#5A3696 !important;
}

.page-User_talk_Derik #content a{
color:#CC2200 !important;
}</pre>

:::::::::The basic principle involved should be clear enough. Let me know when you've seen this so I can remove it from TT1's master CSS file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:28, 18 February 2010 (EST)
::::::::::I have it. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:02, 19 February 2010 (EST)
:::::::::::And, quite annoyingly, it is still not working. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 07:25, 19 February 2010 (EST)
::::::::::::Install the [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1843 firebug plugin]. Use it to highlight the affected element. It will show you which CSS rules apply to that element, and which are overriding each other. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:27, 20 February 2010 (EST)

==GoBot Wiki spam==
FYI: Your user page and a couple of others on [http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/wiki/Main_Page GoBots wiki] has been spammed. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:38, 15 February 2010 (EST)

== Your userpage ==

When did this wiki get horribly fused with the wiki where I actually ''am'' an admin and have access to the site css? :)

(No, really. Fix that when you get around to it.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:30, 20 February 2010 (EST)

== Bot Request ==

:We need to nuke all the sub-categories in Category:Functions named "foo specialist". --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 12:46, 11 March 2010 (EST)

== common_tmp.css versus the css on emopanda ==

Hey! [[User:Derik/Common tmp.css]] and tfwiki_tmp_global.css on emopanda are both included in common.css at the moment. I would have simply removed one as mostly they're duplicates of each other, but it looks like you'd added stuff (e.g. the feed icons) to your emopanda copy which isn't in common_tmp.css. Should I move the new styling into common_tmp.css and remove the emopanda file from common.css? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:00, 11 March 2010 (EST)

== emopanda malware warning. ==

I'm getting a malware warning off emopanda when I load the site in chrome (I had to remove the call to the css file on there from common.css). The warning I got linked to [http://safebrowsing.clients.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://emopanda.com/&client=googlechrome&hl=en-US this page] so you can check it out. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:38, 29 August 2010 (EDT)
:...odd. I wonder if my host got infected? I haven't touched a thing on the site. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:28, 7 September 2010 (EDT)

== Request for info ==

Hey there, I'm Dr Ishmael, an admin at GuildWiki. We are currently in the planning stages of leaving Wikia, and you were mentioned as a good resource to contact for advice on the technical details of this process.

Specifically, it was mentioned that when TFwiki moved, you initially had a form of cross-site authentication in place so that Wikia users could re-register their usernames here with the same password. I was wondering if you could give me any specifics on how that was implemented (I've written similar code before in Perl, so I'm familiar with the idea), or even if you still had the code lying around that you could send me.

If you have any additional advice about this or any other aspect of moving a wiki, we would certainly appreciate the help. Feel free to [[Special:Emailuser/Dr ishmael|email me]] directly or [[Wikia:c:guildwars:User:Dr ishmael|contact me at GuildWiki]]. Thanks! [[User:Dr ishmael|Dr ishmael]] 13:35, 1 October 2010 (EDT)

: A friendly anon posted at GuildWiki to direct me to your LJ posts about the move. I think they cover everything I had questions about so far. However, Wikia is now using a fancy AJAX-based login page (Special:Signup) and I don't know if Special:UserLogin still functions or not (going to the URL just redirects to Special:Signup, but it might still accept POST requests). If I run into any problems adapting the code for the new login page, I may be back with more questions. [[User:Dr ishmael|Dr ishmael]] 15:28, 1 October 2010 (EDT)
::Good luck! It's kinda cool to see other people telling Wikia where they can shove it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:03, 1 October 2010 (EDT)

:::I'm a bureaucrat at the Might and Magic Wiki which is also in the process of telling Wikia where "it" belongs and moving elsewhere. Love the new interface here and its strong resemblance to Monaco: I wanted to ask whether it would be considered a violation of any laws/goodwill if we shamelessly copy it as a template (and if so, whether we could inquire about related technical help around here during the transfer)? Thanks! --[[User:Dubiel|Dubiel]] 18:15, 23 October 2010 (EDT)

=2011=

== Monaco-book skin ==

Hi! I am User:KrytenKoro at kingdomhearts.wikia.com, and we recently moved to khwiki.net . We are trying to install monaco, but our host said that wikia's version is too buggy to use, so we wanted to use tfwiki's monaco-book as an alternative. From what I can tell, you worked on that skin some, and I was hoping that you could help our host ([http://khwiki.net/User_talk:porplemontage here]) get that installed. If there's anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to ask, and if I'm bugging the wrong person, I apologize. Thanks! [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:KrytenKoro KrytenKoro]14:23, 9 February 2011 (EST)
:You want to ask [[User:Rosicrucian]] about that.
:(I imagine we're fine with it-- we internally refer to our skin as "Monacobook" because it's a deliberate hybrid.) But Ros is the guy who did all the heavy lifting putting the skin together, so you'd want to ask him for guidance. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:47, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::Our skin took kind of a weird path to get here. The stuff that went into it ''started'' as me futzing around with reskinning Monaco, then when it became obvious that too much of Monaco was tied into weird Wikia specific stuff, I shifted to reskinning Monobook. The thing to realize about coming up with mediawiki skins is that really all it takes is some basic knowledge of CSS and enough spare time to throw up a working file in your userspace and bang away at it until you get something you like. Really, I haven't ''radically'' changed anything in Monobook, and CSS files are pretty human-readable on purpose. I mean seriously, I think maybe the most "different" thing we did was applying patterns to the various header bars and finding a way to substitute graphics in the place of the sidebar header text. If you mean just straight-up "how to install skins in MediaWiki" there is actually [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Skins/From_Meta a very good tutorial] on that already in the MediaWiki documentation. As I don't think I did anything too special with our skin, I personally don't have much qualms if you appropriate the basic structure and make it your own. Just familiarize yourself with what a CSS file looks like, and bear in mind the stuff I did is going to point rather obviously to assets on this server, so your own reskinned version will of course have to substitute new graphics and their respective paths in.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:00, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::Thanks![[Special:Contributions/12.53.10.226|12.53.10.226]] 18:49, 17 February 2011 (EST)
::::I feel kind of stupid for asking this, but where is your actual monacobook code?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 15:10, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://tfwiki.net//w2/skins/monacobook/tt1.css Here].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:03, 26 February 2011 (EST)

== Template:Disbox? ==

Hey, Derik, is Template:Disbox actually in use for anything? I'm trying to clean up Uncategorized Templates. [[User:JW|JW]] 09:55, 13 February 2011 (EST)
:It's a legacy of a proposed change to how the disambig pages were done.
:Feel free to trash it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:28, 13 February 2011 (EST)

==Camera==
Love you Derik. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 19:37, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

== Robot Masters online comic ==

Would you happen to have the last three chapters of it? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:01, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
:I don't know how the chapters break... I have 26 pages, does that help?
:[http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R05AMS85 Here's everything I have from Robotmasters.]
:(I think I'm gonna limit myself to talk pages for awhile.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:32, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
::26 should be the right number (two pages per chapter). Thank you! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:04, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
:::Glad I could be helpful! Does this mean there is going to be coverage for the RM comics?
:::Please let me know if the red thing Victory Leo emerges from is the Bloody Zone, will you?
:::Also, it occurs to me that even if we're holding off on the unsubbed BWII/Neo episodes for accuracy, we could probably manage 1-sentence summaries on top and cast lists. Make the articles less spare and at least slightly useful.
:::(Uh, I'm not suggesting you to do that, I'm just thinking aloud.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:25, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Well, I've increased the amount of information on [[Robotmasters (online manga)|the individual pages]], but they still lack synopses because I'm uneasy about making them when I have little clue what the characters're saying (not to mention the accompanying [[User:Lonegamer78/Sandbox#Robot_Masters_online_comic_text_portions|prose]]).
::::The panel you're talking about is artistic license to show Victory Leo having an internal dialogue; it's not literal, as is also indicated by the giant floating head. That's common to Japanese media. (He's also, uh, already there.) The only visual example of the Blastizone I've found is [[:Image:Robot Masters comic Blastizone.jpg|this]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:46, 27 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::What's the onomatopoeia? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:59, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::There doesn't appear to be any mention of the Blasty Zone by name anywhere in the comics. (mind you, I mostly skimmed through looking for the proper katakana) The onomatopoeia used for Primal's appearance appears to be "Buon". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:08, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I mention because ''other'' than the Bleed (which seems to share certain attributes with Bloody Zone) I always thought the Blasty Zone sounded like a Boom Tube. Among a Boom Tube's other attributes... it ''changes the size''' of anything that travels through it to fit the local environments. (Giants come through human-sized and vice-versa.)
:::::::I'm not even ''beginning'' to suggest any connection there-- I just think it's funny. :) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:34, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Do you still have the comics anywhere? Megaupload has imploded since you posted that link, and I'd like #11-13 and #2 of the pack-in comic for completion's sake? [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 20:02, 29 September 2013 (EDT)

===Maybe useful website?===
Just so you don't have to strain your eyes when looking at blurry kanji, [http://xeel.aikotoba.jp/storage/index.html this site] has a [http://xeel.aikotoba.jp/storage/bwn/glossary.html glossary of BWN stuff]. It's... pretty much the only site I've found that goes in any depth about BWII and BWN. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 04:40, 4 August 2011 (EDT)
:Kersweet! Matching kanji when it doesn't OCR will be ''much'' easier than trying to figure out the radical combinations. Thanks !?''!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:44, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

== Bot test ==

I wonder how this handles:
* [[トランスフォーマーカーロボッ|multibyte link]]
* [[Petro-Rabbit|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ]] - multibyte visible
* [[トランスフォーマーカーロボッ|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ]] - multibyte both
* [[トランスフォーマーカーロボッ]] simple multibyte link
* {{storylink|Petro-Rabbit|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ}} - multibyte storylink
* {{storylink|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ}} - multibyte both
* {{storylink|トランスフォーマーカーロボッ}} simple multibyte storylink
-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:46, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

==Redirect fix list for bot==
:Matrix Quest (Marvel) - Matrix Quest
:Dark Designs (episode) - Dark Designs
:Showdown (episode) - Showdown
:Dark Star (issue) - Dark Star
:All Fall Down (issue) - All Fall Down
:Primal Scream (issue) - Primal Scream
:Fallen Angel (issue) - Fallen Angel
:Time Wars (issue) - Time Wars
:Way of the Warrior (issue) - Way of the Warrior
:The Best of Simon Furman - The Transformers: The Best of Simon Furman
:Greatest Battles of Optimus Prime and Megatron - The Transformers: Greatest Battles of Optimus Prime and Megatron
:Best of Optimus Prime - The Transformers: Best of Optimus Prime
:All Hail Megatron - The Transformers: All Hail Megatron
:The Arrival - Transformers Animated: The Arrival
:The Ascending - Transformers: Beast Wars: The Ascending
:Beast Wars Sourcebook - Transformers: Beast Wars Sourcebook
:Defiance - Transformers: Defiance
:Destiny - Transformers: Destiny
:Escalation (IDW) - The Transformers: Escalation
:Evolutions - The Transformers: Evolutions
:The Gathering - Transformers, Beast Wars: The Gathering
:Foundation - Transformers: Foundation
:Infiltration - The Transformers: Infiltration
:Last Stand of the Wreckers - The Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers
:Maximum Dinobots - The Transformers: Maximum Dinobots
:Megatron Origin - The Transformers: Megatron Origin
:Movie Adaptation - Transformers: Movie Adaptation
:Movie Prequel - Transformers: Movie Prequel
:Nefarious - Transformers: Nefarious
:The Reign of Starscream - Transformers: The Reign of Starscream
:Balancing Act (issue) - Balancing Act
:Revenge of the Fallen (comic series) - Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Official Movie Adaptation
:Rising Storm - Transformers: Rising Storm
:Saga of the Allspark - Transformers: Saga of the Allspark
:Spotlight (comics) - The Transformers: Spotlight
:Stormbringer (comics) - The Transformers: Stormbringer
:Target 2006 (IDW) - The Transformers: Target: 2006
:Tales of the Fallen - Transformers: Tales of the Fallen
:Devastation (IDW) - The Transformers: Devastation
:Claster - Claster Television
:Headmasters (comic) - The Transformers: Headmasters
:Generation One (Dreamwave comic) - Transformers: Generation 1 (Dreamwave)
:The War Within - Transformers: The War Within
:War Within: The Dark Ages - Transformers: War Within: The Dark Ages
:War Within: The Age of Wrath - Transformers: War Within: The Age of Wrath
:Makoto (Stargate Battles) - Makoto (Star Gate)
:The Cool - Transformers Animated: The Cool
:The Stargate Battles (issue) - The Battle of the Star Gate

Not all of them, but sizable enough to take a while. Additions are forthcoming. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 05:29, 28 October 2011 (EDT)
:<tt>BOT: replacing (1) links to "The Gathering" with "Transformers: Beast Wars: The Gathering"</tt> — should be [[Transformers, Beast Wars: The Gathering]] with a comma, not a colon. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 06:59, 4 November 2011 (EDT)
::But that looks silly! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:50, 4 November 2011 (EDT)
:::The comma only applies to The Gathering, not The Ascending. (Blame the indicia.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:39, 4 November 2011 (EDT)
::::I remember when indicia was something we used to make formal titles ''better'', not worse. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:59, 5 November 2011 (EDT)

:I think Deceptitran might need some tweaking when it comes to storylinks [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Herald_of_Unicron&diff=658987&oldid=636642] It's turning <nowiki>{{storylink|Y}}</nowiki> into <nowiki>{{storylink|X|Y|}}X|</nowiki> in some places. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:57, 7 November 2011 (EST)
::...fucking hell. IT'S the SAME DAMN CODE it's had for 3 years! Why would it...?
::Has it been doing it all over? I am very confused by this.
::''*sigh*'' Anyway, it's not running now. I'm going to be gone for a day or two, I'll look at it then. I'm sorry man. :( -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:05, 7 November 2011 (EST)
:::Hey, it could have been worse - there's no data loss after all! (though with the amount of backups we have, even that wouldn't have been a problem) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:17, 7 November 2011 (EST)
::::Was it just that BW link it was doing it on? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:48, 7 November 2011 (EST)
:::::Unfortunately no. Looks like it was anywhere a title was in a storylink. I fixed a bunch of War Within storylinks last night. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 13:53, 7 November 2011 (EST)
::::::$%^&*( How long has it been doing that for?! I know it wasn't last week.
::::::''*sigh*'' This is probably a result of changes to make it work on links within templates. But they shouldn't affect storylinks!
::::::I'll probably just roll the entire 'bot back to a previous version. (Assuming I can find where I ''put'' the previous version.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:48, 7 November 2011 (EST)

==NetJet==
What are the odds of you being able to track down a workable rip/ROM/whatnot of [[Transformers Battle Universe]]? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 01:52, 13 November 2011 (EST)
:I see zero references to Net Jet ROM's or rips online, so probably no.
:I assume the online servers are no longer active? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:54, 13 November 2011 (EST)

== The Bloody Zone draft you did ==

Did you want to keep that? If so, you should probably move it to User space or something. Also the gender-icons template you did has been up for deletion for a few months, so, er, ditto? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:16, 17 December 2011 (EST)
:Nah, trash 'em both.
: (Though I still think it's retarded that our article on the Bleed pretends we don't know what it is.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:35, 17 December 2011 (EST)
:: Sorry, I shouldn't say retarded. It's differently abled. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:21, 17 December 2011 (EST)

== Suite code ==

I'm trying to replicate the suite code [http://www.khwiki.net/Riku here], and I copied the common.css from [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:Derik/Common_tmp.css here] to [http://www.khwiki.net/MediaWiki:Common.css here]. However, as you can see on the test article, the "suite" first line isn't as thin as it is on the tfwiki. Do you recognize this bug, and can you give me any pointers on fixing it?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 23:37, 23 December 2011 (EST)

=2012=

== Google+ ==
Hey, I made a Google+ page for the wiki. Can you update the main page to also include the Google+ picture link next to the other social network links? -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 21:38, 8 October 2012 (EDT)

==Relevant article to your current efforts==
[[Intelligence officer]]. [[Special:Contributions/24.211.29.87|24.211.29.87]] 22:44, 22 July 2012 (EDT)
:blah. Gratitude though. I think I'll finish the article ''then'' go back and merge the two. Thank you!! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:48, 22 July 2012 (EDT)

==Ladybird scans at green-ranger==
Hey, Derik -- Long time! I just got an email from somebody about my old book scans site informing me that the Ladybird scans you put on green-ranger.com are gone! Have they been relocated, or are they down right now? --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 08:41, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:I certainly don't have them, but the internet is full of packrats. From the TFG pastebin:
Ladybird books #1-10 + Movie - http://www.sendspace.com/file/s65zfe
Ladybird books Audio Tapes #1-10 + Movie - http://www.sendspace.com/file/n8z67h
:-Derik

== New Bot Shots battle game armors ==

I just noticed they added two more armor sets (Minotaur and Dragonscale) if you wanna grab images of 'em for our article. Also any chance you could grab better images of Skystalker, Buzzclaw, Hydrax and Hun-Gurrr off there? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:55, 19 August 2013 (EDT)

== Template:Spoiler implementation on another wiki ==

I've tried patching this template in at Hellboy wiki, but I'm fumbling around because it's not working. Could you give me any guidance?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 10:24, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

=2016=
Gasp! Can it be?

Welcome back to the land of moving parts. Drop me a line at some point. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:49, 22 March 2016 (EDT)

==How can I edit the template?==
Hello, Derik. I am tjdnf1995, a newcomer in this wiki. I'm from South Korea and name's Jin-bo Sim. So just call me Jin-bo.

I'm going to add a South Korean voice actor on [[Demolishor (ROTF)]] page without deleting any other actors. I added the korean actor on [[template:voiceactor]], too. But when I saved my edit, there was nothing but only original actor and spanish voice actor. So I changed the queue. Then, the Spanish actor is disappeared. That really makes me angry. I tried to edit the template, but I couldn't because of its mechanism was hard to find. How do I find and edit it? --[[User:Tjdnf1995|Tjdnf1995]] ([[User talk:Tjdnf1995|talk]]) 12:04, 13 June 2016 (EDT)

=="Pre-Requiem continuity"==
That's not a thing! --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 14:31, 14 March 2019 (EDT)
* Figure out another term then! (I place Requiem for the Wreckers as the fundamental end of that universe with Unicron just tidying up.) But I do think Bold new Era makes sense. --[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 20:54, 14 March 2019 (EDT)
::[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Rename IDW Generation 1 continuity to IDW 2005 continuity?|Discussions at the community portal]] (few as they may be so far) have proposed "IDW 2005 continuity" and "IDW 2019 continuity", both for being descriptive to a fault and as future-proofing in the event of another reboot, though such a change has yet to be implemented site-wide. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 21:02, 14 March 2019 (EDT)
:::That satisfies our needs but the fancom is going to choose their own term and it won't disambig by year. DC certainly never chose the term "post-Crisis." I by they would have preferred "DC 84" as well. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 14:55, 16 March 2019 (EDT)
::::It would have been "DC 86" (or even later. The reboot dragged out a looong time - Wonder Woman didn't launch in the new continuity until ''1987'')
::::And there was an in-continuity event for the reboot in Crisis. There's no equivalent Reality Rewriting here - the place Barber left things in ''Unicron'' (the closest equivalent to Crisis in this respect) and OP, you absolutely could continue from. (Even the "flashforwards" of the last issue of Lost Light are no different to Costa's last issue.) - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] ([[User talk:Mammalian Verisimilitude|talk]]) 16:21, 16 March 2019 (EDT)
:::::Fair point. I chose Requiem because it left the timeline being rewritten as Chekov's gun while Unicron was rolling up the carpets.
:::::I still think 'Bold New Era' is a better banner than 'IDW 2019.' That's shite. Plus IDW is using the term BNE. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 19:35, 16 March 2019 (EDT)
::::::"Bold New Era" is a description, not a name. Plus, things are only "new" for so long - either this continuity persists, in which case it either becomes old before it dies, or it ends soonish (with or without a replacement). Either way, it's not "new" for long. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] ([[User talk:Mammalian Verisimilitude|talk]]) 22:45, 16 March 2019 (EDT)
:::::::For all we know, IDW could ditch the "Bold New Era" branding as soon as the initial five-parter ends. That, and labeling an ongoing continuity as "new" anything is only going to make the title more ridiculous as time passes. See: every joke ever made about "New Super Mario Bros.", for example. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:00, 16 March 2019 (EDT)
::::::::I am 100% certain that IDW will drop the 'Bold New Era' banner eventually. But we need something to call this and 'Bold Era' works.
::::::::Throw out some proposals that are not just a IDW+year. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 00:32, 17 March 2019 (EDT)

==Old templates==
Hi, I've been going through the unused templates list and found a few you created that seem to be ideas that ended up not going anywhere:

*Cal-date/offset2
*Cal-date/offset recurs
*Infobox-tabs
*Vid-icon

Vid-icon seems to be a convenience wrapper that never got used, while the Cal-date offset templates look like alternate offset template ideas you were working on, but Infobox-tabs I can't decipher the use of outside of somehow enhancing one our infoboxes. Are any of these of value at this point? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 19:23, 17 November 2021 (EST)
:I suspect the extra cal-date offsets were development or testing versions of the templates, or possibly used to testbed a new format or somethign which was never aprooved. You can trash those.
:The Infobox-tabs was an idea I had for visually marking the language and medium of a story. It was actually part of a concept I had that intersected with with vid-icon template....
:I wanted us to have a 'Release history' section on comic book pages. So a story would have a series of listings for "Printed in Marvel UK #XX-XX. (Year)" "Printed in Panini #XX (Year)" "Collected in Titan 'Failing Upwards' trade paperback (year)", "serialized in 'Kids Weekly' #XX-XX (year) (Black & White)" To really reflect WHERE these stories can be found. Armada comics were published singly, had single issues cut up into smaller sections for weekly publication in the UK, reprinted with a few other issues in an Annual AND collected in Trade Paperbacks. That's not just multiple printings... it's being chopped up and repackaged in some really WEIRD ways and I thought it was useful to have a little section on the bottom of the page to track this.
:...but I was overruled every time I brought it up.
:Anyway, the Infobox-tabs template was a proposal for a similar visual cue for episodes -- language, year and format or release. But that was just a concept study.
:Junk 'em all! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 04:48, 18 November 2021 (EST)
::Thanks for the info. The Infobox-tabs idea is actually rather interesting. I might throw it out on the Discord to see what others think. My main concern is that it wouldn't be useful enough to justify the effort it would take to add that on all the pages and that it would potentially become a maintenance headache to keep up with it. I'll get the templates junked as they don't look to be far enough along to be useful and there was a tabbed infobox concept proposed for another use that could probably be tweaked if we did decide to pursue the idea. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 00:04, 20 November 2021 (EST)
:::I don't consider those templates useful at all... it's more of a concept test for 'maybe add more immediately scannable visual coding?' Any actually implementation would be much different.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 00:46, 21 November 2021 (EST)

User talk:Derik

2021-11-21T05:45:51Z

Derik: /* Old templates */

Talk:Paleotrex

2021-11-18T10:39:13Z

Derik: Created page with "200px I realize that this image is linked in text, but I think it ought to be presented visually in the article as well. ..."

[[File:Primal's mace vs Paleotrex's face.jpg|thumb|200px]]
I realize that this image is linked in text, but I think it ought to be presented visually in the article as well.

Thoughts from anyone else? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 05:39, 18 November 2021 (EST)

Paleotrex

2021-11-18T10:05:13Z

Derik: /* War for Cybertron: Kingdom */ Should we have the 96 Primal as a previous toy of Paleorex?

{{factions|predacon}}
:''Paleotrex is a [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] [[F.O.S.S.I.L. Technology|Fossilizer]] from the [[War for Cybertron: Kingdom|Kingdom]] portion of the [[Generation 1 continuity family]].''
[[File:WFCKingdom-Paleotrexart.jpg|upright=1.6|thumb|[["Weird Al" Yankovic|Frightening in the dark.]]]]

65 million years in the making, '''Paleotrex''' transforms into the fossilized remains of a mighty ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', also able to separate into skeletal armor and weaponry for his<ref>The character has no bio, though [[John Warden]] at [[Hasbro PulseCon 2020]] referred to the toy with masculine pronouns.</ref> comrades, thanks to [[F.O.S.S.I.L. Technology]].

{{TOCclear}}

==Toys==
===''War for Cybertron: Kingdom''===
[[File:WFC-Kingdom Deluxe Paleotrex.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|These are the tales of the Skeleton Warriors!]]
*'''Paleotrex''' (Deluxe Fossilizer, [[2020]])
**''Hasbro ID number'': '''WFC-K7'''
**''TakaraTomy ID number'': '''KD EX-01'''
**''TakaraTomy release date'': [[March 27]], 2021
**''Accessories'': Tail-weapon

: Part of the first wave of ''[[War for Cybertron: Kingdom]]'' Deluxe Class figures, Paleotrex "transforms" from skeletal ''Tyrannosaurus'' to robot and back via being disassembled and reassembled. His dino-mode tail-tip becomes a serrated sword/cudgel in robot mode, or as shown in the box art, can peg into the back of his large shoulder. Oddly, the box art and the stock photos on the back of the box depict Paleotrex's shoulders assembled on opposite sides, the former depicts the bladed shoulder on the right, and the latter on the left. This is a mirror-flip of the image rather than an alternate assembly, as the slot on the back of the shoulder blade is visible in front if you actually swap the arms.

[[File:Primal's mace vs Paleotrex's face.jpg|thumb|180px|Paleorex's mace mode was modeled after the mace from Optimus Primal's toy 24 years earlier!]]
: As a [[F.O.S.S.I.L. Technology|Fossilizer]], Paleotrex can split into weapons and armor compatible with the [[C.O.M.B.A.T. System]] for use by other ''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' figures (or any figure with [[5 mm post]] compatibility), with two suggested configurations shown in his instructions. The first has his robot-mode lower body and forearms combined into a double-clawed backpack, with the dino-mode tail and pelvic assembly forming a massive battle-axe, his dino-mode head and neck an arm-mounted chompy-thing, his chestplate a shield, and his head becoming a hand-held mace (which, with the battle-mask flipped down, resembles the original ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' [[Optimus Primal (BW)/toys#FirstUltra|Ultra Class Optimus Primal]] toy's [[:File:Primal's mace vs Paleotrex's face.jpg|spiky mace]]). The second has his lower body still as a backpack, but now acting as twin cannons, with the dino-mode feet plugging into the bottom of a figure's feet to be... uh, stilts, we guess, keeping the arm-mounted shield-chestplate, and combining the dino-skull and tail-axe assembly into a monstrously huge battle sword.

: Due to having tiny feet and a very oddly proportioned body in robot mode, the figure can be difficult to pose without it falling over, not helped by the fact that his "ankle" tilts are actually positioned just below his knees.

:Like all ''Kingdom'' Deluxe figures, Paleotrex comes with a [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden Disk]] card that "[[Source:Golden Disk destinies|reveals a possible destiny of a key character]]", with each character having three possible destiny variants.

: In Japan, Paleotrex was released as a [[TakaraTomy Mall]] exclusive.

: This mold was recolored into [[Skelivore]] and retooled with a new head to make ''[[Generations Selects (toyline)|Generations Selects]]'' [[Transmutate (BW)#Generations|Transmutate]].
{{--}}

==Notes==
*Much like other Fossilizers, the mask flipping down over the robot head makes for an interesting callback to the "[[mutant head]]" gimmick used by first-year ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' figures.

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Paleotrex''' (パレオトレックス ''Pareotorekkusu'')

==References==
{{Reflist}}

[[Category:Fossilizers]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]
[[Category:War for Cybertron: Kingdom Predacons]]

Starwheeze

2021-11-18T09:54:56Z

Derik: I still think disambiging him from Wheezing Arrow is worthwhile.

:''Starwheeze is a person from the [[Kre-O]] [[continuity]].''
{{faceless}}

'''Starwheeze''' is a friend of [[Starscream (Kre-O)|Starscream]], often building brick castles with him.<ref><tt>'''Favorite Pastime:''' ''Building brick castles with my friend, Starwheeze.''</tt> –Kre-O Starscream's official bio</ref>

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Profile-only characters]]
[[Category:Kre-O characters]]

User talk:Derik

2021-11-18T09:48:48Z

Derik: /* Old templates */

Starwheeze

2021-11-14T22:32:31Z

Derik: disambiging from Wheezing Arrow

{{disambig2|Starwheeze, Starscream's childhood best friend about whom very little is known|the [[Decepticon]] [[Seeker_(body-type)|Seeker]] from [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]] about whom very little is known|Wheezing Arrow}}
:''Starwheeze is a person from the [[Kre-O]] [[continuity]].''
{{faceless}}

'''Starwheeze''' is a friend of [[Starscream (Kre-O)|Starscream]], often building brick castles with him.

[[Category:Profile-only characters]]
[[Category:Kre-O characters]]

Wheezing Arrow

2021-11-14T22:30:08Z

Derik: why not... disambiging from Starwheeze!

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig2|Wheezing Arrow, a [[Decepticon]] [[Seeker_(body-type)|Seeker]] from [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]] about whom very little is known|the ''other'' [[Decepticon]] [[Seeker_(body-type)|Seeker]] from [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]] about whom very little is known|Starwheeze}}
:''Wheezing Arrow is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[2005 IDW continuity|2005 IDW portion]] of the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
[[File:NotKnowing Wheezing Arrow.jpg|thumb|300px|]]

'''Wheezing Arrow''' is a [[Decepticon]].

==Fiction==
===2005 IDW continuity===
Wheezing Arrow was represented by a statue on the [[Mortilus|Necrobot]]'s [[Necroworld|world]]. {{storylink|The Not Knowing}}

==Notes==
*Wheezing Arrow is a [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] character created by artist [[Hayato Sakamoto]] for his fanworks.
*Possibly related to [[Starwheeze]], [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's]] childhood best friend?

[[Category:Comic-only Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Seekers]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) Decepticons]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots

2021-08-04T22:51:40Z

Derik: /* Revisiting our organizational schema */

= GoBots on this wiki=
''All the key discussions over the years about GoBots, and their place on the wiki.''

==2009==
===Executive Summary===
''A huge discussion about how much GoBots is appropriate, and why. After 4 months of discussion, a compromise that everyone can agree on, starting a GoBots sister wiki on the same server with the same code, is reached.''

====Canon====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Gobots]] franchise page.}}

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Initial kick-off====
{{note|This conversation, and all others unless explicitly noted, originally took place on [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]].}}
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Depth of coverage?====
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Some initial chime-ins====

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?====

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion=====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights =====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narly|Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]
::::Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example=====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Canon or not-canon=====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvelverse side-discussion redux=====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
:Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, the robot (Cyril?) who answered the letters page in the Marvel UK SW comics showed up in Robo-Capers --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:27, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:::There ARE multiple singularities in the MMverse. Stuff like the Living Tribunal, Otherworld, etc. They're just above it all/extradimensional locations/non-hostile. Galactus and even (most of?) the abstracts '''aren't''' (and the abstracts don't actually interact anyway, they use intrauniveral things called m-bodies to act for them). [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 22:34, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Multiverse side-discussion=====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
::::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Why do we care about what Heinlein says, again? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.====

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
=====Jim and Jeysie engage in a truly pointless argument (sorry, everyone)=====
:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Re: Point one: There's still a large number of Generation 1 characters who need their Sunbow cartoon fiction sections written up. And there's also missing Animated and Movie-related info out there. And that's just for starters. There's far more than just the esoteric stuff that needs writing up.
::::::::Re: Point two: If we're going to write up GoBots merely because it's a part of the TF universe, then we'd at least need to do the same for GI Joe, Marvel, and Star Wars as well. If anything, Marvel and Star Wars would have priority because they actually factor heavily into officially-branded Transformers merchandise. I find the argument about which franchise will have more official TF fiction than another completely irrelevant as we don't care (in terms of editing) what a franchise does or doesn't do outside of how it's interacted with Transformers.
::::::::Nor is what it will or won't do relevant either, as GI Joe at least already has a large chunk of existing fiction that would make it important enough to worry about regardless of whether it ever gets more TF-oriented fiction.
::::::::I'm not biased against GoBots or anything, I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. We simply don't need to in order to be successful at our "mission" of providing info on all things TF. Maybe if Hasbro ever has a brain fit and decides to stop making new TF stuff, and we finish writing up all of the existing stuff, we might need to expand our scope to stay viable, but that point isn't any time soon that I'm aware of. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Look, I don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but no. You are just flat-out wrong about that. We are not obligated to do anything. We can make exceptions. We can make judgment calls. We could, if we were so inclined, decide that the G.I. Joe Sunbow cartoon belongs in the wiki but the G.I. Joe comic doesn't. We could decide that ALL of G.I. Joe belongs in the wiki but M.A.S.K. (which has been subsumed into G.I. Joe) doesn't. We're not automatons.
:::::::::And that's ASIDE from all the specific arguments I've made above about why GoBots are different. And I've got some new ones, which are hardly relevant given that I'm throwing my weight behind the compromise solution, but ... Withered Hope was NOT a cross-over story. It was a Transformers-branded story, not a co-branded one. That makes a difference, or we could deign it to. You've got a good six solidly Transformers characters, with toys and everything, showing up in a Transformers non-crossover story. And yet, that story is a sequel to, and set in the universe of, the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon. In effect, that pulls in the entirety of the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon in a way that a co-branded story might not.
:::::::::And finally, you state that "I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff." Well, GoBots is clearly 'DIRECTLY related to officially-branded Transformers stuff'. If 'related' is you criteria, then we've already met it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's less a matter of obligation and more that all of your arguments to include GoBot material here exactly apply to GI Joe, etc. as well. (Sorry, but IMHO none of your arguments make GoBots remotely different in ways that are at all relevant.) Ergo, if we decided to suddenly catalog non-TF GoBots stuff here, it would be completely and utterly arbitrary to not include all non-TF GI Joe, etc. stuff as well. And I think it's really pointless to actually include lots of non-TF stuff like that when it is completely unnecessary to understand the TF stuff that is our main focus (since we already cover non-TF concepts to what is enough to understand their place within TF fiction), and we're not lacking for material to add yet.
::::::::::And, no, GoBot is ''not'' directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. The GoBot cartoon is, AFAIK, not officially-branded Transformers fiction. Only some of the GoBot characters are officially branded TF toys. Only some of the GoBot characters and concepts show up in Transformers-branded fiction. And... again, we already cover those toys and concepts that ''do'' show up in a sufficient enough manner to understand their place within Transformers-branded fiction and merchandise.
::::::::::Basically, if the remaining GoBots fiction and toys ever become officially branded as being Transformers, then IMHO it'll therefore be appropriate to include.
::::::::::Otherwise, I really think that the separate sister wiki idea is the way to go for a lot of reasons. It benefits GoBot fans in that they can catalog ''everything'' GoBots, not just what is "Hasbro-OK", and it benefits us in not taking our focus away from Transformers. There's really no downside there. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:38, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::You do realize what the word 'related' means, right? Are you arguing that something needs to be related to officially branded Transformers fiction, or that it needs to be itself branded as part of the Transformers fiction. Those are two different positions. You're stating one position and then, as far as I can tell, arguing for another one. It's making your whole position schizophrenic and hard to decipher.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'm stating I feel that it has to actually be a part of Transformers fiction or toys, or directly relevant and ''related'' to it like our out-of-universe articles on concepts regards the fandom and various aspects of creating and purchasing Transformers toys. Sorry if I fail to see what's so utterly difficult to comprehend about that. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:01, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::So, you'd be in favor of removing Megatron's appearance in G.I. Joe #138, because that wasn't branded Transformers?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:04, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Er... last I knew, GI Joe #138 was officially considered a part of the Transformers-branded Generation 2 comic series, so I fail to see how that's relevant.
::::::::::::::But in any case, my point is not at all hard to comprehend unless you're deliberately trying to be contrary. In which case, go talk to someone who hasn't had their patience for such things leeched out by the fandom already. I'm tired of being piled on that way because people can't just read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth or playing dumb. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::[[Image:Marvel GIJoe-138.jpg|thumb|right|150px| I don't see a Transformers logo on this cover]]I'm not playing dumb. I'm looking at your position - that only fiction that is 'officially branded Transformers fiction' and trying to poke holes in it. It's a totally legitimate strategy. So, looking at this picture, and actually reading the entire book, you won't find any Transformers logos or copyright notices. So, I assume you're going to champion its removal from this wiki, right? Or that you're going to modify your position.
:::::::::::::::And, as an aside, if you're tired of people who 'can't just read what [you] wrote', maybe the problem is you and not all the people out there who can't seem to exactly puzzle out the positions you so passionately argue for.
:::::::::::::::(The REALLY sad thing is, this argument is TOTALLY MOOT, since we both voted the SAME WAY on the compromise position.) Exasperatedly yours, [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:26, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We label it as "G.I. Joe Starring Snake-Eyes, ''Featuring Transformers: Generation 2 #138''". It follows directly from a Transformers story. That set of GI Joe comics, according to our articles, then leads directly into the Generation 2 comic. It seems from our write-up to thus be a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline. If that's ''not'' the case, then I ''would'' argue it doesn't have a place here.
:::::::::::::::Whereas the GoBots cartoon and the non-TF toys have zip to do with any TF-branded fiction or toys AFAIK. They're not considered a direct part of any TF storyline I know of. I don't have to watch or own any part of it to understand any TF story I know of. It's at best tangentially-related, and quite frankly there's a lot of stuff that's tangentially related to TF if we're going to go down that road, since that brings us right back to GI Joe, Star Wars, Marvel, etc.
:::::::::::::::And, no, I'm pretty sure the problem is people who can't simply read what I wrote and take it at face value. I fail to see what's so difficult about "If it's not a part of or directly related to official Transformers-branded toys or fiction, IMHO it's not our purview." I mean, it's one sentence, it ''looks'' like English, it seems straightforward. If you want to add your own things into it that I didn't say, then you've only got yourself to blame if you're confused, not me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Addendum: But yeah, I realize it's moot. Just... hurgh. Tired of almost every attempt to have a debate on something in this fandom being an exercise in frustration. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::::::::: We label it that, but it's not called that. Just LOOK at the cover! It follow three other G.I. Joes issues telling the same story and cameos a Transformer who had appeared in other Transformers stories, though in a different body. But it's not ITSELF a Transformers branded story. So, are you now changing your criteria so that non-transformers branded stories are sometimes ok for inclusion under some circumstances? Because that's NOT what you wrote earlier.
:::::::::::::::: (I'm not trying to insinuate anything ... it was YOU who brought up the idea that you've had many other people before have similar problems with your positions. Maybe the whole world IS crazy and you're the only sane one ... it's possible, I guess.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:13, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::My criterion still stands as "a part of ''or directly related to'' official Transformers-branded toys or fiction". I, at least, would classify being a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline (if it ''is'' in fact such-I have only our write-up to go by) as fitting that criterion. In that, you have to know/read it in order to not be missing part of a Transformers storyline.
:::::::::::::::::(And, well, I've had ''TF fans'' have similar problems. Very seldom had the same problems in other fandoms.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::So, in your view, a non-branded story that leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline meets your criteria of 'directly related.' Well, boom, we're done. Challenge of the GoBots leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline, Withered Hope. So, I'm glad that you've come around to my way of thinking. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:30, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::No, in my view, one of two things:
::::::::::::::::::::The GoBots cartoon is in no way a ''direct'' part of the plot of Withered Hope any more than the storyline of the universe Jackpot and Hubcap came from is a direct part of the plot of Gone Too Far, or all of Bulletbike's previous exploits are a direct part of I, Lowtech, or what have you. In contrast, it seems like the GI Joe and Generation 2 comics are actually all one single storyline all directly related. If you don't read the GI Joe comics, you're actually missing part of the plot of the storyline.
::::::::::::::::::::It's kind of like, say, imagine that All Hail Megatron had its first six issues branded as a non-TF story, and the last six branded as Transformers fiction. Even though it ended up branded as two different things, it's all directly related as one storyline. In contrast, while any story with Spiderman or another Marvel character in it obviously thus has that Marvel universe as part its background somehow, only that specific character and the aspects of him that furthered the story are relevant to our view of the fiction, not the entire extra universe he's a part of.
::::::::::::::::::::Or alternatively, if we did argue that anything that leads into a TF storyline even just as background is fair game, that still, again, applies to far more franchises than just GoBots, so there's still nothing special about that franchise that warrants singling out. Sorry, but your attempt at twisting my meaning around still isn't working. So, why not just go ahead and accept what I said at face value and call it a day? It'd certainly make ''my'' day happier. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::Have you actually read Withered Hope or the G.I. Joe story in question, or even watched CotG? CotG has a LOT more to do with Withered Hope than G.I. Joe #138 has to do with the rest of the story that follows. Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story. Meanwhile, Withered Hope made reference to, and relied on, GoBots characters and technologies extensively. The Astro-Beam, the Dimensional Interfacer, specific character traits and backgrounds. I'm not trying to twist your meaning, I'm trying to parse it. There's a difference. I'm willing to accept that you don't like GoBots as a part of this wiki. I'm just not willing to accept that you have a logical, consistent reason for it that doesn't exclude other parts of the fiction. Then again, if you're not actually familiar with the fiction in question (and you've admitted that you haven't even read the G.I. Joe unbranded story), then that might explain a few things. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::Actually, this is totally, utterly pointless. I don't care that your viewpoint is not internally consistent. I'm bowing out of this argument. Post whatever you like in rebuttal, and just assume that I disagree with you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, I've read Withered Hope; I didn't see any difference between the GoBots technology vs. pretty much any other technology from TF fiction insofar as understanding enough to get the story. Or how getting a feel for the GoBots characters was any different than getting a feel for Cryotek or Crystal Widow or any of the other TransTech characters that have pretty much only gotten their characterization through the prose stories. I didn't feel like, "Well, this makes zero sense/feels like I'm missing part of the plot unless I've seen the GoBots cartoon."
::::::::::::::::::::::::"Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story."
::::::::::::::::::::::::So, er. Is that different than something like Infiltration #0?
::::::::::::::::::::::::And, my viewpoint is perfectly consistent, as evidenced by the fact that I'm pretty much ending up finding myself having to repeat myself over and over again because nothing you've said contradicts my point. Again, the only reason you're confused is because you keep inventing your own meanings and whatnot that I didn't actually say instead of paying attention to what I did. I doubt most people are going to find anything remotely confusing about "branded as or directly related to TF fiction/toys" because most people aren't doing mental gymnastics to find a convoluted way that something that's "nice but not absolutely important" background info at best and a cameo at worst is somehow important to know to understand some TF fiction. Sheesh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

=====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity=====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====A potential solution====
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::I could get behind that as a compromise.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::If you guys created a separate GoBots wiki, I would gleefully contribute as much as I contribute here. Wouldn't be too hard, either, since a good chunk of the episodes are available online and Counter X has scans of most of the really hard to find comics from the US and the UK. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:02, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be for it as well. We'd need an inter-wiki linking schema-- "gobots:" and "transformers:" seem dangerous-- there's gonna be articles called "Transformers: Subtitle", which makes that... um... potentially fraught. How about "w:gb:" vs. "w:tf:"? That mirrors the interwiki linkign schema used by Wikia to cross-link their sites, and is nicely distinct. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:30, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Honestly, I was about to suggest that myself, but I've been highly distracted as of late. Seems like the best solution to me... plus, it's a perfect excuse to haul out the GoBots bin and do extensive photoshoots of those. Of course, the big question... what do we name the band? GBWIKI to keep with TFWIKI's theme? That's where I'm leaning. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hrm... the toyline was just "GoBots," but the cartoon was "Challenge of the GoBots"... ''ah!'' But there were GoBot ancillary materials (like storybooks) not branded COTG, but simply "GoBots."
::There is no clear delineation that corresponds to the portion of the brand Hasbro may own. Calling it "Challenge..." would implicitly limit it to the cartoon and exclude other things. "GoBots" is probaby what we want to hit. So yeah-- "GBWiki" since the reason we're "TF" instead of "Transformers" is to avoid Hasbro's trademark-- and they '''do''' own the trademark on "GoBots." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:43, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could likely whip up a take on the GoBots logo for it when I get home.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I am particularly thinking: "GOBOTS - MIGHTY ROBOTS, MIGHTY WIKI" as the tagline.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:56, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Challenge of the GoBoxes!" Naahh, of course not. I just wanted to say it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::On that note, it wouldn't be hard at all to throw together a version of the Go Boxes using the GB logo's "GO" instead of our usual Prime-trailer-inspired one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:15, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Heheheheheheheheh. -[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Some surely practical suggestions:
::::*'''Interwiki schema:''' <nowiki>[[w:gb:Crasher]] / [[w:tf:Crasher (G1)]]</nowiki>
::::*'''site url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net (avoiding "Gobots" in the url since it's trademarked)
::::*'''Example article url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/w3/index.php?title=Crasher
::::*'''.htaccess cleared url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/wiki/Crasher
::::"w3" is arbitrary... sub-domains won't actually overlap the file-structure of the existing wiki. (But I feel like installing multiple wikis on one db-server might require a prefix.) Sub-domain feels like a good idea-- both because it's free, and because it enforces our co-branding. Anyway, I'm throwing those parameters out.
::::There '''seems''' to be consensus on this, but if we genuinely intend to spin off another wiki, I feel like there should probably be a formal community vote on the matter. You know-- since TFWiki ''isn't'' run by a cabal of #wiggii members?
::::Say... Measure passage requires 50% of voting editors and 2/3 of voting administrators voting "yea"-- with at least 1/3 of all administrators participating in the vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:11, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How many admins to we have?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I count nine. How many are actually active right now is another matter. Also, we need to do this. GoBots won't get a wiki at all otherwise. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, it'd require at least 3. Which is reasonable, given that TFWiki has some fairly inactive admins. (In a proper 'security council' scenario you'd want 6 of 9 admins participating for any measure to pass. 3 of 9 with at least 2 yea just ensures minimal oversight.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hopefully, we won't need a "security council" anytime soon. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::We don't have a lot of big votes like this one. AFAIK, the move from Wiki and re-licencing have been it.
:::::::::The admin-requirement really only exists to keep a bunch of editors from proposing something silly/crazy on a dead weekend and declaring it passed. (Not that the community would go along with it, but having a bare-minimum administrator rubberstamp requirement heads off potential mischief.) At least, this was the arbitrary requirement I came up with when we passed the relicensing vote, since I'm '''not''' an admin and I was the one proposing it, it seemed important as a means to establish the legitimacy of the vote. (We only got 3 admin voting for that... it was in the middle of convention season and half our people were gone.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::'''Is''' this what we think we want to do? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Those links link to wikia. Odd. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:00, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, very odd. KILL THEM NOW. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
On an interwiki schema... why not just <nowiki>[[tfwiki:*]] and [[gbwiki;*]]</nowiki>? It has the advantage of simplicity. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, to me this seems the easiest to remember.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::''*shrug*'' Forward-compatability? Site names are fine for everything we link to now, but a future sister-site could overlap existing article names. Frankly, my real motivation is that w:subject: names mean I could type "w:starwars:" instead of constantly misspelling "wookieepedia:" (I always forget the double-e.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And yeah, I think "w:name:" is currently set to link to wikia. Hrm. "ss:subject:"? (Sister-site?) "p:subject:"? (partner.)
::Wikipedia has a buttload of arbitrary prefixes for interwiki linking. A single consistent schema seems better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, this would seem to be a good opportunity to kill all the wikia interwiki links (except for the link-exchange deal with Wookieepedia). If a wikia page must be linked to, let it be an external (nofollow) link.
:::And the proposed gbwiki would be a sister/subproject, not a true external wiki like <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:*]]</nowiki> (and note the lack of a secondary prefix there). - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Regards an interwiki schema, why not just "h" for "Hasbro"? h:tf: and h:gb: And I second killing all of the wikia links except for Wookieepedia. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:41, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Not to be a bummer,I love the idea of a GoBot sister wiki, sounds like a lot of fun creating and reading, but an important point has been raised in the Allspark discussion of this: Can we afford it? Our Wiki apparently dosen't always quite pay for itself ad-wise and is basically kept afloat by Walky. Yes, a GoBot wiki would be smaller (and hopefully cheaper) but it also would likely be less popular a draw for adds. (GBs being much less mainstream than TFs now are). Again, it just seemed like a point that should be raised before we dive into the cool project... --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I offered to make a donation in that thread. Walky said that this wiki costs around $160 a month to maintain, with around $130 being covered by the ads, with those numbers fluctuating every month, obviously. A GoBots wiki would be only a fraction of the size of thise wiki, even when 100% completed in every way imaginable. With ads factored in, about how much do you think we'd need a month to cover the remainder? I could throw in $10 to $20 every month or thereabouts, and if a handful of people sporadically felt the urge to donate equal or less, you think we'd be covered or at least took the brunt of the financial burden off of Walky's shoulders?
:If we CAN do a GoBots wiki, it'd be nice if money wasn't what kept us from making it happen. But hey, I understand that that's the way the world goes 'round and all. Just sayin' that if a fraction of us skipped McDonald's once a month and gave that fiver to the wiki, we might be more or less financially secure. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Of course, we could just run the theoretical Gobots wiki on the same server, with the same ad boxes. Unless somehow we got a MASSIVE spike in traffic from Gobots fans that aren't Transformers fans (which I am somehow not seeing), it would probably work out to be exactly the same. (Not to discourage anyone from helping the wiki financially. You can do that also and it would help regardless. I'm just sayin'.) --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::This is good news. This would be ideal, if possible.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::What about a donation drive? We could have a meter on the frontpage, and after the donations reach an amount that could keep the wiki afloat for a while, we could launch GBWiki. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====Opposition====
Do we have the time or "manpower" for this? This wiki still needs a lot of work. For example, The Unicron Trilogy articles (especially Armada Mini-Cons) and the Beast Wars/Machines are more or less still a mess, and not up to the standards of more recent articles or more frequently-updated articles. I think we should work on getting these pretty important eras of '''Transformers''' up to scratch before our more frequent contributors divert (some) of their attention and free time to GoBots. And yes, I have recently put work into updating Armada and Beast Wars articles where possible, since our other members are most ably handling everything else. And no, I'm not suggesting the wiki should be work, I just think we should get this into order before we start doing something else. Maybe it's my probable Aspergers talking. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:50, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:You're assuming that people who would be working on this have any real knowledge or familiarity with UT materials. Someone may absolutely hate Armada/Energon/Cybertron and have no material to add there, but have much material to add to GoBots. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::From what I've seen, a good number of the people in this discussion or have discussed it elsewhere are those who have no problem with the UT or actually like it. But there's also Beast Wars - if everybody here likes BW, why are the articles so bad? :p I mean, if I was a newcomer to Transformers (or a returning fan because of the movies), I'd be pretty dissapointed if I came here looking for information about this "Beast Wars" other fans are always raving about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::At one point finishing all the BW or G1/RiD articles seemed like a pipe dream. Effort over time did it.
:::Frankly, I think the potential for such a split to draw in new editors outweighs the negatives of potentially splitting people's attention. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and of course, I can't make people do things they don't feel like doing. Still, concerns are concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:37, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wasn't trying to say that any particular person hated UT or BW, just that the assumption that the editors who would be working on GB would be drawn away from other parts is not necessarily true. Some people may become more active on mainstream TF articles even while working on GB articles. Something different often energizes people, and that energy can carry over to other things.
::::::Yeah, you can't force people to work on articles that don't interest them. If the spirit moves them to work on BW and UT they will. Adding a GoBot "section"/sister-wik wouldn't stop anything from happening (especially if it isn't happening to begin with). And it might just draw in new contributers or set someone off on a wiki-fying binge that gets a bunch of TF stuff done too. (ZacWilliam, logged out again, dumb laptop)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::People will work on what interests them. People doing productive work in one area will naturally discover other areas to focus on. Broadening our scope thusly will most likely bring in new editors, or at least reinvigorate old ones. Frankly, the whole argument that we shouldn't allow our editors to work on what they want in the hopes that they work on what someone else wants them to do is pretty flawed. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh come on, this is like not letting a kid eat dessert until he's finished his broccoli. "You want GoBots? Well you can't have em until you finish your Unicron Trilogy!" "But I haaaaate the Unicrooon Trilogyyyyy!" "STOP WHINING!" --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hell, the original ''The Transformers'' cartoon episodes still need a crapton of work (basically, if the Errors sections aren't several screens long, then we aren't doing our job!) Still, I don't see why any of that should stop us. Manpower may not be infinite, but it's not fixed, either; a wider net of subject area will likely attract a few more editors. And people who would work on UT stuff will probably do it anyway sooner or later, even if they do get distracted by GoBots for a while. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::You'll ALL see once I complete these sections by myself and spend hundreds of dollars importing DVD sets* for shows that I don't like YOU'LL ALL SEE!
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>This is a lie. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:59, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

====The Vote====
Well, um, let's do this thing.

* Jim Sorenson, votes '''aye'''.
* I'm in '''support''' of this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye''' - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]]
* I support this. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''YES'''. I'm all for it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:31, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Go for '''yes''', if there are no major problems. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 12:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Oh '''hell yes'''. A GoBot wiki sounds awesome, and how much time/manpower can that really take? There's a really tiny amount of GB stuff compared to TF, after all. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:53, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*Definatly a '''Yes''', if we don't do it who will? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye'''. This place is volunteer-based, let people work on what they want. --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]]
* '''Why the hell not?''' [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 15:07, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* I say '''Go''' for GoBots. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:09, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* [[User:Derik]] votes to '''affirm''' the proposed extension. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Support. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Sure''', why the heck not? I doubt I'll have much hand in it, but it's a good thing to have, and it would definitely be unique! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Another '''yes''' here. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Now that it seems to be its own entity, I am now in '''support''' of this addition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:35, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Oui.''' --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Yes'''. Best of all worlds for everyone, IMHO. (Although I personally won't end up contributing to it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Why the hell not.''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 20:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* A GoBots wiki? '''Yeeeeeess'''. (have you ever noticed how people always try to transcribe BW Megatron's "Yes" with a lot of Ss? But it's not the 'S' that he stretches; it's the short 'E' sound. "Yesssssssssssssss" would be like a snake hissing. I suppose it's in reaction to the English rule that turns two consecutive Es into a long E sound. "Yees!" ) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
**That's technically a long "i" sound. '''Sure''' to whatever we're voting for! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:21, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Fo' shizzle'''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:21, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Aye me hearties!''' [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 06:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yep''' (and M.A.S.K. has been subsumed into GI Joe somebody said? Since when?) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 13:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**Matt Trakker got a Joe toy this year and the bio card featured the revelation that VENOM was a sub-unit of COBRA and that MASK works for GI Joe. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Heck yes.''' (Also, MASK sucked) --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:54, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yes.''' (If MASK is part of G.I. Joe, we'll just have to eventually make another sister wiki for G.I.Joe, and then that wiki can have its own sister wiki for MASK. It'll be Tfwiki's cousin wiki. lol.)--[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:03, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**G. I. Joe has a Wiki, it's just not well maintained.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*Well, if there's that many people who want to work on the thing, '''Yes''' for me.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

====Results====
OK, I'm calling this thing. With 27 votes for yes and 0 votes for no, including votes from four admins, there is clearly overwhelming (unanimous, in fact) support for this endeavor. Awesome. Technical-minded folks, what are the next steps from here?

(Just for fun, let's see ... 88K! If this discussion were an article, it'd be the 16th largest on the site, so it's actually longer than 99.8% of the content we've produced.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:43, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
:Sweet. And, we really probably should archive this whole discussion as a "topic" thingy, I think... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah: this discussion is giving insane length warnings. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 09:20, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

Seriously, what are the next steps we need to take? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:I believe it waits on Scout and McFly having the time to set up the changes on our server. (Which, since I think that might involve Squid configuration might take awhile.)
:If people want to get started I suppose I ''could'' set up a placeholder mediawiki install on my domain, and when GBWiki-proper was ready I'd just hand them a database backup. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:57, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::Would you be willing? I think keeping the momentum going while enthusiasm is high is a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure. I'll set it up this evening. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:54, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Per request, a temporary home while TFwiki's hosts get their ducks in a line. [http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/ gbwiki.covertutopia.com/] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::So...um...we can get started, then? On the "early draft" stuff? I see no one's made any changes since you put that up, so I'm hesitent, that's all. Can I start on articles there now? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:38, 11 January 2010 (EST)
::::::I get the feeling from the edit summaries that folks can get started, it's just that everyone's been too busy/waiting for someone else to do it first. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)

====Getting Under Way====

Random thoughts: 1) Do we know for sure the "tech folk" (whoever they are) have seen this discussion, vote and result and are working on it, or planning to? I only ask cause I'm not sure who exactly "they" are and I don't remember seeing anyone saying anything like "we're on it". 2)Once things are definately underway, shound there not be an announcement or link on this side of the wiki somehere letting folks know about the new section/sister open for editting? And if yes, where would be good? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:05, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:I think it's a good idea, once we finalize some of the real basic stuff over on GBWiki's end. As it stands, we don't even really have a skeleton over there - there's a "list of Go-Bots episodes" page and that's about it. I think we need to get at least a rudimentary framework hung up - both in the sense of A: at least some stub articles for major characters and stories and a general "franchise overview" page to direct people around the site and B: getting all our formatting templates put into motion (character appearance boxes, episode navigation, etc.) At this point, I wouldn't really want to announce it on the front page because there isn't anything there to look at. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::Why does gb.tfwiki.net redirect to transformers wikia? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:32, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm guessing it's an artifact of when tfwiki.net originally pointed to Wikia. ''Any'' subdomain you type in other than www goes to Wikia right now, apparently.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::::It's fixed! --[[Special:Contributions/67.149.197.71|67.149.197.71]] 12:56, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Realize that I'm asking this out of a profound ignorance as to how the wiki "mechanically" works, but I assume that it just redirects to us now right, still not to edit-able GoBot-pages-to-be?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:04, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::Hmm, now all subdomains lead to tfwiki.net, but they're returning valid pages rather than redirecting to the "real" URL. If people link to "blah.tfwiki.net" then the search engines will start indexing the whole site a second time under that domain. The other subdomains should redirect as www.tfwiki.net does. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:26, 14 November 2009 (EST)

::::::[http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aen.tfwiki.net] [http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aww.tfwiki.net] See? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:30, 11 January 2010 (EST)

==2010==
===Executive Summary===
''There is no GoBots sister wiki.''

====What happened?====
http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/wiki/Main_Page
:"GoBots Wiki has a problem

:Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
:Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.

:(Can't contact the database server: Access denied for user 'emopanda'@'localhost' (using password: YES) (localhost))"

I was slagging ecstatic to see that there was going to be a Go-Bots wiki, because I knew next to nothing about 'em and wanted to learn about them. This is just disheartening. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 19:21, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's server, so check with him, though ISTR there hadn't been much info added to the GoBots wiki when it was up. The original intention was to run it on the same server as TFwiki - don't know what happened (or didn't happen) there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::My impression was that Derik's was only set up as a stop gap till the wiki got the one everyone voted for up. That never happened. I got the impression that though the community voted a big yes for it, the powers that be weren't that into it so the vote ammounted to nothing. Which is a shame cause I was really excited to see it happen. :P --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 20:48, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::The powers that be are busy getting married next month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::It was voted "yes" a year ago. I mean no offence meant, but that's a long time to get a ball rolling. With no appreciable news or announcements in that year I think assuming the big "yes" vote amounted to nothing is kinda understandable. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 21:01, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::General lack of interest. I suspect the number of people who can recite chapter-and-verse of every single Gobots episode, the way we here do for TFs, is very small. Of that small group, fewer still knew this project existed. "It might be cool" works for a half-hour download, not for creating an entire website devoted to about 70 hours of programming and 200 toys when you aren't already ''really'' into it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:40, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I was interested at the time because I thought doing an episode guide might be fun. But Counter-X came out with one recently and has about the most thorough collection of info on GoBots toys, merchandise and media; basically everything that would be up on a GoBots wiki, anyway. So I sorta lost my enthusiasm. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 22:47, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::For me, and I have to imagine some others given the widespread enthusiasm in the vote above, it has nothing to do with loss of enthusaism or lack of interest at all, but everything to do with no place to start. The vote was for a "seperate but linked" wiki meaning not just writing up gobot stuff and posting it here but waiting for the apropriate seperate framework to be given. If the OK was given to add Gobots just to our current wiki I'd start constructing GoBot articles and Character pages right away. Without it there's nothing for a potential poster to do but wait on the ptb to start things rolling. I am definately still enthusiastic about the idea and would definately still contibute if it ever comes to pass. (As a side note, the whole GoBotron is Primus thing from the Allspark Almanac 2 makes me want to add this stuff more than ever.) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 03:10, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I admit that I don't know all that much about GoBots, but by god I would learn as much as I could just so I could help contribute to a GoBots wiki. Without a wiki like this there really isn't any one place to find out everything about GoBots, without having to shell out for a book that probably doesn't have a very wide distribution. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:16, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The [http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots page] that Spengler mentioned is quite detailed. I spent some time a while ago reading though some of the pages, and it kinda made me wish the show was out on DVD. I don't think it ever screened here. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:28, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::As good as Counter-X is, it doesn't have the integration of information that we have here. For example, toy and cartoon data are on separate pages. Also, having multiple contributors means that things each individual is missing can still be covered if other individuals have access to them. Just because there is a decent Go-Bots site doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make our own, it just means that we should try to make ours even better.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:39, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

==2011==
===Executive Summary===
''Newbie brings up the idea again.''

====Cartoon?====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)]] page.}}

Why didn't we add info on Cy-Kill's appearances in the cartoon?[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 01:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
: We have already added info on all of Cy-Kill's appearances in the Transformers cartoon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:Where? I only see his appearance in the timelines comic, not the gobots or transformers cartoon.
::I refer you to what I just said. This is a Transformers wiki, not a Gobots wiki. We do not catalog Gobots fiction, only Transformers fiction. If Cy-Kill shows up in Transformers stuff, we catalog that. And we have. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::But Gobots and Transformers were both created by Hasbro, and Gobots are related to Transformers somehow. If you watched the documentuary Triple Changer, then you'd see that Gobots inspired Transformers. So basically, more info belongs here.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 15:47, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Read [[GoBots#Pre-GoBots]] and get back to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::They are CURRENTLY in the same company.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 16:28, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::No they aren't. Hasbro doesn't own all of Go-Bots. They merely bought Tonka. That doesn't mean they own all of the intellectual property involved. Rival toy company Bandai still owns the toys and Hanna-Barbara still owns the cartoon. At best, Hasbro owns some names. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Not to agree with this guy per say, but I just want to remind folks: 1) We did hold a vote of users, who at the time overwhelmingly approved that they wanted to do a separate-but-linked Go-Bots wiki as a sister thing under the TFwiki.net banner. And 2) Since that vote the Allspark Almanac officially established that the much interlinked franchise is a part of the TF Multiverse (if there was any doubt) and MORE that GoBotron is their universes body of Primus and the Go-Bots are their universes TFs. Soooo... Why keep them out? It's not like they'd even add THAT much. They've had nothing to talk about that's not here already in 20 years, and were fairly small then. I really can't think of a valid reason to ignore the retcon that they are and have always been TFs. I kinda feel they belong here. They didn't always, but now? Yes.--[[Special:Contributions/99.103.104.77|99.103.104.77]] 17:04, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::The AllSpark Almanac may claim that GoBots are fictionally linked to TFs, but that only makes that statement canonical, it doesn't make a cartoon that is not licensed fiction and does not belong to Hasbro canonical and Wiki-worthy. As for the GoBots Wiki... it was attempted, but nothing really came of it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:17, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::G.I. Joe and Jem are also in the Transformers multiverse. Probably also Spider-Man and Avengers. The AllSpark Almanac connects like a dozen series to the Transformers multiverse. WE ARE NOT ADDING ALL OF THOSE SERIES TO THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:19, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::It linked a lot of series Hasbro has ZERO rights to as well. So um... yeah. --[[Special:Contributions/71.70.225.1|71.70.225.1]] 19:18, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I remember being told that the GoBots wiki still had some technical details to work out before it was really ready to go live and then never heard anything more. Was it ever actually open for general editing? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:22, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::Derik had one set up on his own site (before it died) as a temporary measure while one got sorted out here. A GoBots wiki doesn't absolutely have to be hosted in the same place as TFWiki. If there's sufficient interest, one could be set up elsewhere. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::Well, 1) the retcon did more than place GoBots in the TF multiverse. It said they ARE Transformers and Primus IS Gobotron. That's different in my opinion than a crossover with Spidey or JEM. It's an apotheosis., which makes them and all about them valid material for us retroactively imo. But hey, I'm not gonna argue with the powers that be if they disagree. 2) Yeah, the GoBot sister wiki wasn't really tried as far as I've heard. It was voted for. Approved. And there was then never any movement to make it as far as I ever saw here. Derik was cool enough to make a placeholder site, but nothing ever moved here. Not a criticism, just saying If it had started I would have, and totally still would, contribute. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:37, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::If AllSpark Almanac claimed Pandora was another body of Primus, that wouldn't mean we'd start putting Avatar stuff in the wiki. The claim is canonical, but the fiction isn't. Simple as that. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:42, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I completely disagree. But I also don't care enough to argue the point. So... Meh, I guess. I'd rather the discussion moved to the voted for sister wiki. Cool idea I would have loved to have happened. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49#Gobots_on_the_wiki..._again --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:28, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

==2012==
===Executive Summary===
''More of the same.''

==== Integration ====

Okay since this discussion shut down and the wiki seems to be dead I thought I'd bring this up. Via the Club Fiction and the stuff seen in the Almanac, can we do an integration of the GoBots and Go-Bots based on them canonically having Universal Streams and being Transforming Robots? (I suppose this would also cover Robotix)
:No. There are almost no GoBots characters, no GoBots fiction before about 2006, and no Robotix characters or fiction whatsoever, to have ever been published under the appropriate brands required for inclusion here. The very small amount of material appropriate for inclusion is here already. The TFs canonically exist within some version of the Marvel universe, and yet we don't include every single other Marvel character on this wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:45, 12 January 2012 (EST)
:: Ah, but that's my point, if the GoBots and Bo-Bots have been retroactively canonized as altverse Transformers, does that not make them under the proper brand? (Unlike , let's say Captain America, who's never been revealed to be a Transfomers within the Marvel Comics Continuity) This isn't like the Sunbowverse, where non-TF elements are ignored unless pertinent to TF, this is a whole new kit n caboodle which has been declared to be TF under a different name. Just my five cents, since it seems this discussion just sorta petered out.
::: Discussion has petered out because we've explained a bojillion times why it's not going to happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::I ask again about the sister GoBots wiki seperate but connected to ours that people voted an overewhelming yes for doing way back when but then no one ever it set up. People seemed very interested in doing that when it was voted for during the first time this came up. People were still interested in working on it last time this came up. Just saying'.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 10:45, 13 January 2012 (EST)
:::::It is impossible to retroactively brand something. Hell, there are parts of Darth Vader that actually have been declared and marketed as a TF of some kind, but his prior 30 years of personification beyond those very limited branded appearances do not count and do not appear. It is exactly the same with name-dropping Robotix and then pretending it counted.
:::::At this point I am comfortable determining that nobody gives a shit about GoBots beyond the context of their minimal TF crossovers. It's been like 2 years since the vote and nothing has been done, and no one seems to be trying it anywhere else on the entire Internet either. The Almanac cannot create licenses retroactively, it can just say things and we can go on rightfully ignoring them. It's 2012 and wiki software is easily available - if anyone cared it would have been done. Sorry if I come off too strong, it's just that the non-licensed-hood of every pre-2006 scrap of GoBots fiction and characterization is incredibly open and shut and I really don't see why people keep coming here to try to wish that away. --Thy, not logged in
:::::::Thy, the vote was to start it on our serves as a linked but equal thing and then our folks would fill it once it existed. Every time this comes up as it has multiple times. Folks say that they'd loved to edit and add to it as a companion to ours if it existed. But no one has set it up for them to do it. Basically the interest is there in the community whomedit the wiki but not in the folks who administer the wiki, yes? That seems to be what I see.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:03, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::Gotta agree with the anon here. When the GoBots wiki was to be set up I was told that there were some problems to be worked out with the underlying programming and we would be told when it was ready. The next thing I knew, it was no longer accessible at all. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:04, 13 January 2012 (EST)

==June, 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''Things heat up, as [[Ask Vector Prime]] starts to generously include information regarding GoBots''

==== GoBots articles ====

Is there some reason why we're not having full coverage of the GoBots characters' exploits in GoBots fiction? It seems kind of silly to acknowledge their existence in Transformers media and then... not really provide relevant information. It's not really like there's any cohesive GoBots site with all information in one spot, you know? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 03:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:There is such a site, and its existence has been cited in the past here as one of multiple valid reasons why adding GoBots to this wiki has never gotten off the ground. http://counter-x.net/gobots/ --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:34, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::As good as that site is, it doesn't go into nearly as much detail about its topic as we do about ours. Also, it is maintained by a much more limited set of editors (maybe even just one?). Our larger editor base could bring more eyes and viewpoints to the material. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:07, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:It's been discussed in the past with some trepidation, and the idea of a "sister wiki" for GoBots content was floated, but nobody really seemed into the idea and we haven't talked about it since. At this point, though, with more and more GoBots stuff working its way into TF fiction, along with the complete release of the GoBots cartoon on DVD, perhaps it's time to talk about giving the GoBots show and characters their full and proper due on TFWiki again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:29, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I don't actually know all that much about the GoBots *coughthatswhyweneedinformativearticlescough*, but I'd be more than willing to help with article maintenance and setup if we ever decide to go ahead with it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 05:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::As I've said before, when the GoBots wiki was proposed I was told that there were technical issues to be taken care of before it could be opened for editing and that the community would be told when it was ready. The next I heard about it was that it was being shut down as not having attracted interested editors. I am still fully supportive of either option, a sister wiki or integration. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:12, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::A sister wiki seems like an weird excuse to overcomplicate things. Is there really any reason to not have all the information in one spot? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 07:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::At the risk of overcomplicating things further, since we'd be including Go-Bots because the characters were retroactively made into alternate universe Cybertronians/Transformers, would we also provide complete coverage of [[Robotix]] since it was retroactively altered the same way? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 07:59, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::I'd say no, because we wouldn't be covering GoBots specifically because they were retconned to be alt-universe TFs, we'd be covering them because involvement of their universe and characters has become a recurring thing, and the two franchise have always been paired in some capacity or another. Maybe when Robotix actually does something that ''matters'' and isn't just a winky in-joke; otherwise covering them would amount to covering something like Jem or Inhumanoids in full. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::: Oh god please no to Robotix.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::::For the sake of argument: TFWiki don't have complete coverage of G.I. Joe, despite it's many interactions with Transformers. TFWiki has relevant articles, but not complete coverage. Why do so for GoBots? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] ([[User talk:Crockalley|talk]]) 08:10, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Can you REALLY not see a difference between G.I.Joe, Jem, Inhumanoids, etc and GoBots and Robotix? ''Really''? GoBots and Robotix have both been said to be counterparts of the Transformers. Joe, Jem, and the Inhumanoids haven't. Covering GoBots and Robotix fiction IS covering TF fiction, covering Joe, Jem, and Inhumanoids fiction is not. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:15, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::For the love of God, NO. We already feature all the GoBots characters and stories that were published under the TF brand label, just like the relevant Avengers and G.I.Joes. We don't pull in all of the everythings that all of their colleagues ever did in unrelated, non-Transformers stories. It will never belong here. Adding 80 characters and 100 hours of programming? No. As someone said in one of the prior iterations of this, if Vector Prime said that Pandora was a transdimensional embodiment of Cybertron and Eywa was its Vector Sigma portal, we wouldn't fill this wiki with every character and animal from Avatar. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Avatar isn't a property owned by Hasbro nor something that's been constantly involved in the Transformers multiverse, so I'm not seeing the comparison. It also has its own dedicated fanbase and resources, which isn't really something you can say for GoBots; its presence in real life almost wholly overlaps Transformers. (It'd be around 26 hours, to be accurate.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::And, ultimately, why does it matter that much if we make one exception for this? It's not going to result in a full-blown biography of Spider-Man from Earth-616 (which exists elsewhere in plenty of places) or full coverage on G.I. Joe (which has its own fanbase that can make a resource if they want to). We're talking about a small subset of articles that you aren't required to work on. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:54, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why wouldn't it result in a full bio of Spiderman? The distinction between the two offtopic properties is arbitrary and insignificant. If you want to talk about ownership, Hasbro owns Visionaries and we know they canonically exist in the Animated galaxy. Shall we bring in articles on Leoric and Heskidorr and the Pig Imp? If you break down the rule of "TF branded material only," then the only thing keeping all the Inhumanoids out is personal preference and "oh, come on!"-ing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::''Logic.'' Any potential revival of Visionaries is not going to be done under the Transformers brand. Spider-Man does not exist under the Transformers brand, G.I. Joe does not exist under the Transformers brand. GoBots now, for all intents and purposes, ''does''. A full revival being hilariously unlikely, anything Hasbro does with the IP in the future - as well as everything it is currently actually ''allowing'' licensees to regularly do with the IP in a capacity beyond "referential nudge-nudge wink wink jokes" - is under the Transformers brand. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::On the contrary - the only published Visionaries story material in 29 years was under the TF brand. It is far more likely that like Inhumanoids, the Visionaries will continue only as a hanger-on of Tramsformers fiction Easter eggs forever. And all of the GoBots material that was published under the TF brand, and is in any way related to real TF characters and stories, is already here. Which is all that belongs here. Hasbro owned Battle Beasts from the start and we currently include all the actual TF branded appearances of Battle Beasts / Beastformers. But we give only the most sparse coverage to the American comic book and American Battle Beast characters because it wasn't a real, branded, linked TF story the way the Japanese material was. We have to stick with standards and not just what people might personally find fun. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:40, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::That's why I stipulated a capacity beyond referential in-jokes for fans, which is all the Inhumanoids or Visionaries references amount to. I think where the disagreement lies is in whether or not we think of GoBots as another franchise that is being "referenced" or having "crossovers" with Tranformers - that's what Visionaries is, but my stance is that it is ''no longer'' the case with GoBots, but that GoBots is now ''part'' of the Transformers franchise and warrants broader treatment than Spider-Man-style articles where we pretend we don't know who Leader-1 is. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:52, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Also, slippery slope arguments are silly, unless the people involved are idiots with no judgement capacity, computers, or state legislatures. You're concerned about things that no one is advocating or interested in. Regardless, I think everyone gets that you're against the idea.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::That's not a slippery slope argument. That's pointing out that putting in Go-Bots would be inconsistent with how we treat other non-Transformers franchises. And, frankly, I think Jim Sorenson should probably recuse himself from this discussion since he's the guy trying to use official means to marry TF and Go-Bots with rubber bands, Elmer's glue, and footnotes. It feels a little disingenuous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:23, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Fair point. I'll bow out. (Though I'm far from the first or only person to play in this sandbox. In fact, expect more from others in the very near future.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:55, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

IF we decided to do this, I think we'd want strict guidelines from the start about what is and is not in scope. Since the toys were mostly licensed from Bandai, a Hasbro competitor, I would say they should NOT be included. Also, ancillary media has been pretty much ignored by TF fiction.

My gut says that The Challenge of the GoBots cartoon (65 episodes, 1 movie) is about the extent of what we'd want to include. No coloring books, no Machine Robo, none of that. It's the easiest bit to do, the most influential, and the bit that Hasbro mostly has claim to.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Hasbro has a claim to the cartoon? Then how come [http://www.wbshop.com/product/challenge+of+the+gobots-+the+series,+volume+one+%28mod%29+1000486768.do Time Warner sells it], no probs, without any Hasbro logos anywhere? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:08, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::The text on the back of the original mini-series DVD refers to "Hasbro's GoBots". - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::And the newer ones? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::They don't mention it, no, but I'm just pointing out that Warner's put it on there. Hasbro don't ''own'' the cartoon, we know that. I think we can all at least agree GoBots is a ''weird'' case, where Hasbro own the "idea" of the property and the characters and story and such but none of the actual physical ''assets''. It's my contention that those "ideas" are now a part of the Transformers brand, and not guest-stars from another franchise. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::As far as I can discern, they own the name, what other trademarks they've maintained, and that's about it. They don't own the character likenesses and they certainly don't own the toys, and it's confirmed they don't own the cartoon, either. We're not going to catalog a non-Transformers cartoon Hasbro doesn't own on this wiki, no matter what Vector Prime says. If you want to cover the "idea" of what they own, that can be accomplished by adding to the already-existing "Gobots" article. Hasbro owning part of a sliver of an idea of GoBots doesn't mean we need a "Scratch" or "Sparky" article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:35, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:Agreed. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I'd still like to see all the other stuff done up, but am willing to leave that for another day if it helps get this moving along. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Same. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:50, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::This has been asked about 6 times in the recent past, including after the Gobotron incorporation, and it loses every single time. I think it's insppropriate to seriously discuss going ahead with it after about 2 hours of talk. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:01, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'm not sure what you're defining as the "recent past", but the last time I can find was in [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49|2010]]. We're obviously going to wait for more input before we start pumping out articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:17, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::Here's 2011: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Cy-Kill_(GoBots)
::::::Here's 2012: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I am with Thy. This has been argued to death a billion times over, and nothing has changed. We're not about to start cataloguing stuff that isn't Transformers media on our Transformers wiki. That's the opposite of what this wiki is about, and no amount of Vector Prime answers will make some Hanna-Barbara series into a Transformers one. Folks who want to catalog Go-Bots should make their own wiki, and if they can't drum up the interest to do so, and have to piggy-back on ours in order to get it done, maybe that should tell ya something. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:13, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Full agreement with Thy and Walky. And I'd like to point out that I'm one of the bastards who created the lion's share of TF-branded GoBots material. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:02, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:If we can't document [http://monzo12782.tumblr.com/post/105019142648/and-then-there-was-that-time-the-renegades that time Cy-Kill dressed up as George Washington], what's the point of cataloging any of it at all? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 10:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Well, you just made my day.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:44, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

==October 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''A full-on GoBots Facebook pages prompts multiple proposals, resulting in several votes, ultimately opting to... make no changes to existing policy''

==== GoBots 2015 ====
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

=====Call for Vote=====

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. 
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. 
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Zebediah Braxis|Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

======Vote Results======
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

======Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture======

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. Over my dead body.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's dead body, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

==January 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''The first real change in 6 years. [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] is declared to be technically not Transformers fiction by [[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]], a proposal by [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]].''

==== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ====

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
=====Walky Calls It=====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

=====Epilogue: It's all over but the crying=====
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

=====Questions and self reflection=====
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Starscream (Armada)|Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful. I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case. (Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

===== Reviving the Sister Wiki =====

So, I'm not going to argue about getting Gobots information on here anymore. However, this has made me want to actually go ahead and make that sister wiki. Now, I have no clue how to work with anything more than the most basic softwear, but I'd actively contribute to such a wiki. Is there anyone else who would? And if so, is there anyone who could set up a site? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)
: I'd be happy to contribute/move pages and info over from this wiki to any hypothetical Gobots wiki. That said, I have no software experience either, so I'm in the dark there along with you. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:59, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::Maybe we could ask abates or something like that. If Derik was here, he could probably set something up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:07, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page I have no real interest in GoBots nor any particular technical skill, but this seems like your best bet for setting up a wiki. It's Mediawiki, so it should work pretty much the same as this site (just, you know, without templates. Or a custom skin, unless you can get someone to do that. Or a unique url. Or content.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'd love to help out with this. I think with what I've seen about fights on TFWiki about GoBots, this would be a good solution, and then the pages that actually would exist here could link to there. I don't know much about GoBots or site editing, but I've been enjoying Renegade Rhetoric and would like to learn more about the GoBots. If this occurs, please let me know and I'll learn/teach myself what I need to help. Would this GoBots wiki consist of the AVP and related stuff also? "[[User:SoundJack426|SoundJack426]] ([[User talk:SoundJack426|talk]]) 20:40, 8 January 2016 (EST)"
:::::Yes, which brings me to my next point: One more thing I want to ask about any potential sister Gobots wiki: would we add Rock Lords information there too? Cause they were marketed separately, but they pretty much exclusively showed up in Gobots fiction, aside from the random storybook. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:09, 10 January 2016 (EST)

I've been amazingly busy, but I still want to come back to this. I did make some attempts at cobbling some stuff, quickly realizing I'm still stuck with my understanding of coding at Windows XP Microsoft word and having no understanding of what any of this stuff means. However, I do want to at least try to make this wiki happen. I'd have to wait till summer to make any real big push with this, but in the meantime, if anyone can offer any means or advice, it would be appreciated. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:31, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==February 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''Clarification of existing status of GoBots on the wiki. Crossover GoBots get full write-up, with brief Renegade Rhetoric summaries.''
==== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ====

Is there any objection to my adding External Links to Counter-X's Challenge of the GoBots profile pages to the character pages here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:54, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:I was doing it only in lieu of TFU.info links. TFU seems to be our standard for outside toys links and we typically don't do others unless TFU lacks them for some reason. But I dunno if there's a legit policy about it or not. (that said, Counter X is a great GoBot-centric resource and probably more informative than TFU, just my opinion) --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:58, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::Counter-X has actual cartoon bio pages to link to, not just toy reviews.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:59, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think there's any issue with adding informative links. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:31, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::::Okay, Renegade-related pages linked. I'll tackle the Guardians later. Unless someone else wants to do it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:27, 5 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Guardian-related pages linked. I changed format a time or two, I will go back later and harmonize ALL of them. Unless someone else beats me to it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:52, 22 February 2016 (EST)

OK, just to clarify, what Chris McFeely proposed last month was this: ''"GoBots characters only mentioned in Renegade Rhetoric stories consolidated into simplified 'List of Guardian' and 'List of Renegade' pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles."'' So, it's permissible to write up full articles for characters who appear in the crossover fiction, yes, detailing their adventures in said crossover fiction? Those who only appear in Renegade Rhetoric get consolidated into a list with brief description of their Renegade Rhetoric adventures with links to the RR/src archive. And for the characters who do appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get that brief description with link to archive. I don't want to do work that will get reverted or start an argument, which is why I'm double-checking what Chris proposed and the community agreed.

If my understanding is correct, I'll try to write up the crossover fiction stuff, and then take a stab at consolidating whoever's left. I thought I remembered seeing a sandbox of consolidation, did anyone make any progress on that?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:55, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:Considering that we now list it as "Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric", does that distinction still apply? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:21, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::Let's not bring up old wounds and rehash old arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:43, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::Chris's proposal was based on the idea that Renegade Rhetoric wasn't Transformers fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::Jim has stated before that the "Transformers" part of the title doesn't really mean anything and shouldn't be taken too seriously. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:53, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I guess I can't argue against that. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:57, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::I would, however, argue that the RR appearances of characters who have other TF fiction appearances should be on their pages and not just on the archive. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:01, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::: I don't want to argue about anything. I just want to confirm that I am correctly understanding and interpreting what was decided.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:10, 25 February 2016 (EST)

So... no opinions on this? I'm maybe 90% sure I'm right in my interpretation, but I'd love Chris or Walky to weigh in just to be certain. If no one cares anymore, I'll assume I'm right and get started. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:46, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:Yep, your summary matches what I envisioned. I started [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|this sandbox]] for the Renegades but I've been busy. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:30, 26 February 2016 (EST)
::Great. I'll try to get some progress done this weekend. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:20, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:::I would say, though, that it'd be worth linking to at least one of the TFU/Counter-X profiles from these list pages, given that they provide useful context ''without'' it being the wiki's coverage; in particular, the likes of Jack Attack and Decker Decker, who (on the sandbox as it stands) don't give any indication of which unused Machine Robo toys they're based on, meaning it would be pretty much impossible for casual readers to track them down. I remember that someone proposed using a table instead of headers for the list pages; maybe have a column in the table for Counter-X links? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:40, 26 February 2016 (EST)

==March 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''After the publication of [[Echoes and Fragments]] makes the previous ruling on Renegade Rhetoric moot, the community declares that ALL Facebook GoBots material is off limits on the grounds that we simply don't like it / it causes too many arguments, whether or not it is Transformers fiction.''

====Echoes and Fragments====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Echoes and Fragments]] story page.}}

=====Initial Discussion=====
If ever we were given cause to kill individual GoBots pages, this disgusting masturbatory horseshit is '''''it'''''. If ever there was doubt that these things were being done to end-run and abuse the wiki, it's dead. Jesus fucking Christ. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Finding it hard to argue with you. I mean.. geez. This is a lot of effort put into something for inconsequential stuff... Imagine if people put this much effort into... making a Go-Bots wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:46, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh ''dear''. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::(Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think that's what's going on here. Jim seemed perfectly fine with this stuff not being on the wiki. I really think he just has fun writing GoBots stories and is happy that Hasbro lets him. I guess it's my own OCD that makes me want to write up the GoBots who meet Transformers here, just like we do with Marvel heroes and G.I. Joe characters.
::::::::And as to this "stretching the definition" of a story... does it? Did you read it? I laughed out loud at several parts and found the juxtaposition of GoBots elements with the overly familiar Transformers The Movie story rather clever. Blaster getting swapped for Blaster, Leader-1's corny response to "why throw away your life so recklessly", Fracture and Deadlift as Unicron upgrades for Crasher and Deadlift. It's a good read, and virtually every scene has a traditional Transformer in it. So, to call it not a Transformers story seems unfair. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 04:13, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Forget it, you win. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:16, 1 March 2016 (EST)

I was just ''waiting'' for this story to shit everything up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 04:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Okay, so... as an extended story, I think this warrants its own page, yes. (As Jim pointed out, the original is only slightly shorter than the upcoming Beast Wars: Uprising story.) And it ''is'' heavily Transformers-based, as opposed to being more-or-less pure GoBots fiction like Renegade Rhetoric is. But I think that, really, 70-80% of this article could be replaced with "events followed as in Transformers: The Movie, except with these GoBots replacing these Transformers", because... that's what it is. We don't need full descriptions of anything except the Sideways/Vector/Gong parts. (Also, the sooner we condense the GoBot character pages, the better. All those red links are making me nervous that someone's going to start adding them.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:And that's exactly what I'm advocating. The page SHOULD exist. But really. ''REALLY''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 05:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::No? None of them? I mean, some get a ton of fiction here. Is there any intellectual foundation for this position, or is it basically just "we don't like it." I see plenty of room to condense characters, but certainly this should expand the scope of who gets featured. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:09, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::Don't. Just... don't, dude. This is not something you will get supported on, I assure you. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Sigh.

Giggidy, I like you, I truly do. I appreciate your enthusiasm for AVP and co. But there's a point where you have to step back on some things, and wonder if you're going too far.

Now, as for the article itself, I feel that there's bits that are acceptable and bits that aren't. The notes section is fine, who's replaced with who makes sense. But the summary really needs paring down. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:47, 1 March 2016 (EST)

It seems a bit narcissistic to insist that Jim shouldn't write what he wants to write because of the wiki or that it's the purpose of his work. Nobody's obligated to respect our idiosyncrasies when it comes to particular topics. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)

===== Delete =====
Why is this even an issue? I thought this was all settled two months ago. If the wiki doesn't want to cover GoBots (or any other piece of my writing, or anyone elses' for that matter) the wiki doesn't have to. I'm a big believer in engaging with the bits of the franchise you like, and ignoring the bits you don't. Giggidy, the reason I asked you not to write up this article was because it's evident which way the majority of this particular community leans. Just respect that. I'll write whatever I want, the wiki can cover whatever it wants, and other readers can read or not read whatever they want. It's not rocket science here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:11, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:The issue is that this isn't unambiguously GoBots fiction like the majority of us consider Renegade Rhetoric to be; it's combination GoBots and Transformers fiction, a la Withered Hope. I don't think anyone actually thinks this shouldn't be covered. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:43, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I definitely think this should be covered. The issue of how to handle the Go-Bots elements is something we'll have to deal with somehow. (I ''think'' we said they would all go in a list article or something? Am I understanding that correctly?) If there was a Go-Bots wiki, I'd say we should link to that, but... -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 1 March 2016 (EST)

======A different proposal======
Since this story was presented by Vector Prime in universe as a document written by his student, Blueshift, what if we were to likewise treat this story as such? Instead of this article covering the events of a fictional story written by a real world author (Jim Sorenson), it would cover the contents of a fictional document written by a fictional author (Blueshift), thereby treating the actual story within the document as a meta-fictional story-within-a-story that we needn't cover in the same manner as real-world fiction, but still having it covered on here in some fashion. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm against it. There's no point being cheeky about it and trying to find loopholes so we can get to say "it doesn't count." The Go-Bots can still get one list-page. There's no reason list-pages can't be just as informative, interesting, and in-depth as anything else. And there's no reason why the existence of this specific fiction should change our approach to the Go-Bots being documented. It's not about whether the story is good or bad. I enjoy Sorenson's writing frequently. It's about the fact that we approach different franchises outside of TF on a pretty case-by-case basis, and I think the (mostly) list article is the fairest approach for Go-Bots. G.I. Joe has special "rules" that let us include a little bit more than we would for say, Star Wars. I know my reaction was based on the presumption of what it meant about other Go-Bots articles. I'm sure that's the case for other people. Everything should be documented in full, as it should be, but you shouldn't wind up on a Go-Bots page every third click of the "Random Page" button with the current proposal. Article stands. List of Go-Bot stands. That's what I think. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::''Fine''. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Giggidy, please, let it go. "We don't like GoBots" is a PERFECTLY VALID and legitimate reason not to want to write about it. They don't NEED a better reason, so stop asking for one.
:::::::And, wiki folks, not for nothin', but I strongly recommend just adopting the stance that all GoBots are verboten and not try to contort yourself through intellectual hoops to justify their exclusion. I've had GoBots in my work since 2010 (though you can be forgiven for not realizing that <nowiki>[[Zero (Animated)]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[Zero (GoBots)]]</nowiki> aren't the same dude, since I hadn't introduce the concept of the diaspora yet) and I'm not likely to stop any time in the near future. I'll be happier if every time you see a Monster GoBot in Uprising or there's some new GoBot face in Axiom Nexus it doesn't kick off a big argument, and in the long run you'll be happier too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:27, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think we ''want'' that, though. The solution of "all GoBots compacted onto a few pages for GoBots fiction from the Facebook pages" is a reasonably elegant one, I think, that lets us remain a comprehensive source of Transformers information without being flooded with individual GoBot stubs (due to the fact that a good deal of the Facebook content is as much GoBots as it is Transformers, and the wiki does not consider the former to be a subset of the latter). Scrubbing all GoBots content off entirely would be a bad idea; we shouldn't not cover the likes of Zero, Vamp and Creepy just because they originated in GoBots. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:28, 2 March 2016 (EST) (And I never want to say anything with that density of the word "GoBots in again".)
:::::::::If we were a Beatles compendium, we couldn't get away with "Let's not include Yoko Ono at all because we don't like her involvement in the band." (and no, I'm not comparing anyone to Yoko Ono.) For better or worse, Go-Bots is part of Transformers fiction now, and simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 11:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::::Ding ding ding. Stop letting petty wiki grudges dictate our content. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:47, 2 March 2016 (EST)

::::::::::Ascendron's right. While filling the site with GoBots stubs is undesirable, to ignore them entirely would be to ignore a fairly large chunk of recent Transformers fiction. I think the list article is probably the best solution, and it's one we had already agreed upon, if I remember correctly. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 11:58, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page. That will be then, this is now. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 12:18, 2 March 2016 (EST)

Can't we just get past this bullshit already? Some people on the wiki don't like covering GoBots, but nobody is obligated to respect the supposed "consensus" of some website and we will just have to deal. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:01, 2 March 2016 (EST)

=====Individual Write-Ups=====
OK, we're definitely not deleting, which I agree with. But that brings us to this:
:"simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website."
How is that not what we're doing by not writing up the characters who appear prominently in this story? Keeping in mind that the previous proposal specifically does not cover this story or anything like it. The intellectual foundation for excluding [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]] is that "it's not Transformers fiction." Leaving aside the sheer absurdity of declaring that licensed fiction about transforming robots published under [[:File:RenegadeRhetoricLogo.jpg|this logo]] with [[:File:RR Title - Opportunity Knocks Part 2.jpg|these]] [[:File:RR Title - Babysitting.jpg|title]] [[:File:RR Title - All Tomorrow's Utopias.jpg|cards]] is somehow "not Transformers fiction", we all, even M Sipher and Walky, agree that '''Echoes and Fragments''' is Transformers fiction. So none of the logic or reasoning for keeping them to one big list applies. The only person who seems to be advocating for "if you don't like it don't cover it" is Jim Sorenson himself, so I again ask, is there any intellectual foundation or argument to not cover characters appearing in this story other than "we don't like them"?

Ascendron, statements like this "Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page." make me think that you're making some kind of notability argument. I went ahead and added Echoes fiction to the existing [[Major Mo]] page, as well as condensing the existing RR fiction and adding the very brief high-level summary of the RR fiction that hadn't yet been documented. I kept the Echoes to an extremely high level, like we're to do with RR fiction. Even with all of his appearances limited to just the bullet points, it's a real and substantial article. It would be much longer if we actually documented his appearances the way we do everything else. Is his article really less substantial than the likes of [[Harcourt]] or [[Marty Cooper]] or [[Roxy Sparkles]] or [[Brawley (ROTF)]] or [[Deep Earth Scout]]?

I get that some people don't like GoBots. I get that people are sick of arguing about it. But at some point, isn't it easier and simpler to just stop putting our fingers in our ears and shouting at the top of our lungs "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NO GOBOTS HERE" and just treat them exactly like we'd treat any other piece of licensed fiction, and stop making special rules and exclusions for them? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:57, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Because GoBots is a special case, and one of the biggest cases of bad-faith manipulation of the Timelines Facebook pages, and it ''feels wrong'' to give characters full pages because they didn't show up in this given that we're not doing so for Renegade Rhetoric characters. It may not be entirely consistent, but it's also what the opinion of pretty much everyone except you, Giggidy, seems to be. So, if you can convince people to support you, great, but until you can show evidence of consensus we are likely to stick with counting the GoBots characters from this story as a Renegade Rhetoric appearance. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:31, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Is it? You and Chris have chimed in, and that's it. If two people on a random talk page is enough to not cover characters fully, why don't I go over to Kiss Players and start a talk page there and see if I can get two or three people to agree to de-wiki all that stuff?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::And Sipher, and Ascendron has indicated that he'd rather have all GoBots links have to go to Wikipedia than to let this "mess up" the wiki. And, you know, it doesn't even ''matter'' until the list pages are live, so I'm not going to say any more on this subject until it becomes ''actual'' furniture-shuffling, as opposed to just hypothetical. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:02, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::Rather telling that so many folks vote for a "solution" and then make zero effort to implement it. Meanwhile I'd be done updating it by now if people weren't so busy advocating for special exceptions be made and extended rather than just treating this fiction the same way we do everything else, including the German bits that make no sense and the Japanenergy tentacle porn.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:19, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::I get that the consensus is that GoBots fiction from before Hasbro bought Tonka is considered out of bounds here (I don't AGREE with it, but I see no point in continuing that fight). What I DON'T understand is how, given that we've been told that GoBots are their universe's equivalents of Transformers, there is any justification for leaving out any new GB fiction. GBs are TFs now, so new GB fiction IS new TF fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::I agree, but there's nothing we can do about it at this point. There's a reason the dissenters have stopped replying; they've won, and they know arguing about it futhermore is pointless. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Well, not really. If it's a vote about handling Echoes characters, there is at least as much support for treating them the way we normally do is making a special exception, so it's probably safe to go ahead and do so. On the otber hand, if you're talking about revisiting the Renegade Rhetoric decision, I agree with you that that would be a pointless discussion. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:47, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::And I don't think the "consensus" will change. It's still "eviiiiil maniac Jim out to destroy our poor wiki with GoBots", regardless of the specific label it's under. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:05, 3 March 2016 (EST)

I just wish someone beyond the people who wanted to keep it and those who only wanted it separated because of all the arguing would do something with this list idea, cause I sure as hell don't see anyone arguing against their inclusion since the beginning helping with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:50, 3 March 2016 (EST)

So, at least 4 of us in favor of treating this like any other piece of TF fiction and not saying that it's not Transformers fiction as Renegade Rhetoric is. (Me, Saix, Khajidha, Ascendron per his talk page.) We know Chris disagrees, and Riptide because it ''feels wrong''. Anyone else want to chime in? And is "feels wrong" a precedent we want to set as a reason to exclude content? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:15, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:All I really have to say is that ''if'' we treated it like any other piece of Transformers fiction, we'd have to give everyone who appears in it a page, as per wiki rules. It's kind of arbitrary to say "Major Mo and Alice and Bob appear in this more than anyone else does, so they should get pages but nobody else should". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:36, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::But I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that characters with a substantial role get a page. It's "kind of arbitrary" to treat this differently than any other piece of crossover fiction too, but I don't see that stopping you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:02, 4 March 2016 (EST)

::There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages and I personally don't mind, but the whole argument on GoBots keeps causing ill-feeling and conflict around here so I'm voting against. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 11:33, 4 March 2016 (GMT)

The previous mandate handed down was about GoBots in general. No one could read it and assume it was specifically about ''Renegade Rhetoric'' and not about other Gobots-material creeping in, particularly not other Gobots-material from the same source in a slightly different format. '''''NO''''', there should '''''NOT''''' be individual pages for GoBot characters who appeared in Echoes and Fragments.

And Giggidy, by leading the charge on this, you've really shown that you learned ''nothing'' from the last AVP fiasco about how to usefully contribute to the Wiki. This is...the worst thing you could have done. Honestly. The worst. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 07:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|previous mandate]] specifically stated "since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become GoBots fiction, not Transformers fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from Challenge of the GoBots "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki" I don't see how anyone could read that as anything other than what it says. It says Renegade Rehetoric has become GoBots fiction which we don't cover. Echoes and Fragments everyone agrees is Transformers fiction. Ergo it has nothing to do with Chris' proposal. Note Charles above, "There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages," or even Ripclaw on [http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-162 Allspark:] "I... can't really come up with a cohesive argument against it, so...". I [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of|even asked Chris]], who authored the proposal, if my understanding was correct, and he said it was. I cannot understand what possible reasoning there is beyond "we don't like it" which was explicitly rejected above, and apparently neither can anyone else. We're literally taking a story everyone agrees is Transformers fiction and not covering the main character, who is also on the cover, because some OTHER DIFFERENT GoBots story is "not Transformers" despite being branded as such. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

Upthread, Jim says he's been writing GoBots into his stories since 2010. The article says this story was published in 2008. The article was created 3 days ago. Something doesn't add up. I've watched with great appreciation as McFeely continues to develop his master list of GoBot pages. Once those go live, 90+% of the current GoBot stand-alone pages will get the immediate, permanent, and incontestable deletion they deserve, and there will be no more shadows of loopholes that might confuse new readers about our policies.

And honestly, if people keep pushing the envelope I suspect it would really fucking backfire. We were sick of this shit already YEARS ago. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:10, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The article says the story was published in 2016. I think Jim is probably referring to [[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:09, 4 March 2016 (EST)

=====I capitulate=====
Fine. Even though there is zero intellectual coherence behind the position of not covering the characters in this story, I'll stop arguing because again I'm inexplicably in the minority. All I was suggesting was that we handle this story exactly like we handle every other crossover story. I didn't agree with the ruling on Renegade Rhetoric not being Transformers fiction, but I respected that there was a solid foundation for it. This decision has no foundation aside from "we don't like it" which is a terrible reason not to cover the licensed branded fiction. And since Sorenson has stated that there's more GoBots fiction coming in the future, I look forward to the NEXT argument when people try to stretch the fig-leaf of "we don't like it" to cover more and more. Because you know it's coming. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

==== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ====

[[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|The existing rule was:]] "I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles"

That caused a lot of argument over [[Echoes and Fragments]], since most people did not want to create new pages for each named character even though 'legally' it's fine. This is going to come up again when new GoBots appears in a Transformers fanfic (and Macrocosmic Seekers is all about that).

At this point, might be worth altering the law to "who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories with a moderate-to-large role in Transformers fanfiction" i.e. [[Major Mo]] is fine because he had a big role in Echoes but Back Grounder the Rock Lord who was only mentioned briefly in a crowd scene is not. That seems to be the spirit of the law. - [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 17:27, 4 March 2016 (GMT)
:I vote no. "GoBots characters and concepts who have not appeared outside of Facebook-based media do not get their own pages" is a reasonable policy without loopholes. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:52, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::That's the crux of this all, so if it gets people to shut up about this forever, please, for the love of God. Stuff that has appeared or been mentioned in other media will still get appropriate pages—nobody has ever argued against that. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:18, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::Agree with Riptide. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::::I think this is a terrible, terrible rule and an awful precedent, but it is at least honest and non-subjective. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:23, 4 March 2016 (EST)

So, that's the concensus. The rule is "GoBots and major associated characters who appear only on Facebook pages get the list treatment." The justification is that GoBots is a frequent source of arguments and the hope is a simple, unambiguous rule will curtail these arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:07, 5 March 2016 (EST)

I would like some clarification: once the master lists go up and many GoBot articles are deleted/redirected, what about the Renegade Rhetoric fiction sections on the pages which stay, e.g. [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]] or [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]]? It is my understanding that we are minimizing ''Challenge of the GoBots'' season 1 content to summaries, but what of "season 2" adventures? Can any of it go on the wiki? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 02:17, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:As I've been reading it, RR has been de-credentialed and will be purged, completely. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:01, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::I wasn't sure either, so I asked Chris up above in the ''Question about GoBots'' block, and he confirmed my understanding, which is this: '''For the characters who appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get a brief write-up with link to RR archive.''' So, Renegade Rhetoric adventures do count, but get written up in a truncated way. I've been meaning to get to everyone, but have been busy with school. When [[Puzzler]] got mentioned in [[High Noon]] I did a pass on him, which shows about the level I think was authorized for Renegade Rhetoric write-ups. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:40, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
Does ''Echoes and Fragments'' count as a piece of crossover fiction? Because that gives... like... ''every'' GoBot a sentence or two of "screen-time", which might throw a wrench in the plan. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:10, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:We've decided that the Facebook fiction in general does not "count" enough to give GoBots characters their own pages, unless they have appeared in non-Facebook-based fiction. We probably should give Puzzler his own page, but ehh. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:34, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::It's a strange place we find ourselves in. The original justification of not wikifying Renegade Rhetoric was that it's somehow technically not Transformers fiction. That went out the window with '''[[Echoes and Fragments]]''', so Chris [[User talk:Chris McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|basically said]] that the goal was to keep GoBots footprint to a minimum regardless of their appearances in unambiguously Transformers fiction. The new rule is that Facebook appearances don't count towards whether or not a character gets a page, because we don't like GoBots/they cause too many arguments. But if/when they show up elsewhere the Facebook stuff gets written up. So, I expect many more pages like Puzzler, where there's a one-sentence mention from some other fiction and then four or five paragraphs of Facebook stuff. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 12:50, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:See prior discussion on [[Talk:Echoes and Fragments]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

==TL;DR==
''[[GoBots]] (and related characters/ideas) who appear in non-Facebook Transformers crossovers get full write-ups, because that's how we handle all crossovers. GoBots who appear exclusively in FunPub Facebook pages (i.e. [[Ask Vector Prime]]), get no write-ups, because we don't like GoBots on the wiki / they cause too many arguments. GoBots who appear in both get full crossover write-ups, but only limited [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] write-ups because we consider Renegade Rhetoric to be non-Transformers fiction.''

== The current state of Shoutwiki and the IDW comic's impact on this discussion WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE IDW COMIC ==

So, with the Go-Bots comic and the current state of both of our sister wikis, I think it's time to re-examine our options. Now before this gets out of hand, I just want to clarify: I am NOT advocating for both of them to be folded into TFWiki.net at the time being. What I want is to look at what we have now and see how we can improve. Also spoilers for the Tom Scioli series.

So, first off, with the ShoutWiki bit:

For nearly a year, both of the wiki's have had very little activity. IDW Hasbro has had slightly more activity, but much of that has petered off recently, at least. Part of that, I have always felt, is due to a lack of good advertisement on TFWiki. It took, give or take, over half of a year for the GoBots and IDW Hasbro Wiki to receive any acknowledgement on our main page that wasn't the consistently changing "disambiguration" bit, and even then they're not particularly noticeable. Now, we could say this is due to a lack of interest, which for GoBots, I could have seen prior to the IDW comic, but I don't think that makes sense for the IDW Hasbro wiki. Additional issues include:

1. The mass amount of spambots and non-user editors. We have no control over ShoutWiki like we do with TFWiki. As such, spambots are still quite rampant in comparison, and IP address-based users are still active. This is undesirable for many reasons.

2. The problem of Wikia/Fandom. As we know, Gamepedia was recently bought out by Wikia/Fandom. Now, I won't pretend I have any idea how that works, but knowing how awful Fandom is today, I would worry about any possibility that ShoutWiki would suffer the same fate. And as we've seen with Mirage's posts on the Allspark Forums thread for the GoBots wiki, Fandom's current management is beyond screwed up.

On the comics front themselves (SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE COMIC FROM HERE ON OUT):

1. The comic connects them to the Transformers. As seen in the end of issues, the GoBots are depicted as the creators of the Transformers, connecting them once more. Now, when even the comic produced by Hasbro's main go-to comic company, written by someone not too heavily involved in the fandom, connects them to the Transformers, it's worth re-examining.

2. The comic's legal info. Now, a big part of the position against putting them on the Wiki is that it seemed that Hasbro was unwilling to use the GoBots beyond slight homages. Possible reasons for this include the idea that Hasbro only owns the names, and that other parts are still owned by Bandai and Warner Bros. Now, the indicia for the Go-Bots comic only has Hasbro listed in the legal bit. The comic uses characters from the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, and everyone is drawn faithfully to the Bandai toys. It would seem that Hasbro is much more confident on their ownership of the characters than they were 2-3 years ago.

Now, to examine our options:

1. We fold these wikis into ours. Again, I am NOT advocating for this. That being said, gained advantages include: better prevention of spambots; being on this wiki, my hypothesis is that there would be a lot more attraction to create these articles than there are now for the two out of the way ones; and we wouldn't have someone selling off out wiki to a ponzi scheme disguised as a "community".

2. We create new wikis we own ourselves. Personally, I'm all for that, but there are several problems. A lot of the people involved with the set up of this wiki aren't really around anymore or are inactive. There aren't very many beyond abates that I can think of who have good backgrounds in the more technical side of stuff, but I could be forgetting some. Additionally, there would be more money to pay to have 3 sites up, and I understand that is a lot to ask for. Additionally, without better advertising, we'd run into the same problem we haven now. There might be other stuff but again, I'm no tech wizard.

3. We get better advertising for our two Shoutwiki and hope for the best. Probably the easiest of the three options, and the least costly/headache inducing. The only problem is still the spambots and the chance that Wikia will buy ShoutWiki out.

In any case, I wanted to bring this stuff up after talking with several friends about the states of our 2 sister wikis; this is not me trying to reopen old wounds. I hope that is clear. If I am unclear about anything I am willing to clarify-been busy with final exams for school which is why I'm only now getting to this after having wanted to bring it up for a while, and it's hard to focus during this crunch. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

== Is the sister Wiki still a thing? ==

Just spend a day or two editing the Gobot wiki before I stumbled on this discussion... is the sister wiki still an ongoing concern or has it been abandoned by the admins? Part of me wants to do much, much more as the Gobots side of the thing really needs some work but I don't want to waste time on it (well, beyond that any wiki editing is a waste of time) if it's wound down.

[[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 09:49, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:We still link to it on our main page here. It's just that there simply hasn't much interest in it as of late. Most of the activity was brought on in response to Fun Pub's Renegade Rhetoric generating a renewed interest in GoBots, but which has since died down. There was the IDW GoBots mini-series that sparked a new interest, but that's wound down since too. GoBots just doesn't have the fire and staying power to keep most people's interest in it perpetually ongoing, but that doesn't mean we've abandoned GBWiki. If you're interested in working on it, then by all means have at it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:43, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:It's worth remembering that the people currently running TFWiki didn't create it--they found a dilapidated Transformers wiki in the wild, and nursed it to health, until it became the powerhouse it is today. Even if the people currently there have lost interest, there's always a chance that your work could give it the second wind it needs to become a vital resource. --[[User:Wack'd|Wack'd]] ([[User talk:Wack'd|talk]]) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
::As long as it's not going to somehow expire in a puff of 404s in a week's time (I have no idea how hosting of Wikias works) I'm more than happy chugging away, just didn't want to bother if I'd missed something. TVM guys [[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 12:42, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

==Revisiting our organizational schema==
Over the last six years or so, we have had a steady influx of what I am going to call "outside" content that is only tangentially relevant to the ''Transformers'' franchise as a whole—''MASK'', ''Micronauts'', ''Visionaries'', ''Star Trek'', ''Ghostbusters'', ''Terminator'', ''Back to the Future'', and two ''My Little Pony'' crossovers with a possible third volume on the way. It is clear that Hasbro and its licensees are open to the idea of multiple franchises and outside properties coexisting with the Transformers, and our wiki policy up to this point has generally been amenable to the idea of treating these characters the way we would any other character: an individual wiki article that documents their characterization and their role in any given story, regardless of how major or minor that role is. (See also: [[Slywire]], [[Arex (Star Trek)|Arex]], [[Killerwatt]], [[Doctor Hooves]], etc.)

There is one exception to the way that we treat these crossover characters: due to the controversies surrounding the "Renegade Rhetoric" era, we currently do not give the majority of [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]]s and [[Renegade]]s their own individual pages, and have currently amalgamated the vast majority of these redirects onto a single table.

It is true that our current organizational schema regarding the GoBots was born out of a sense of frustration regarding the ongoing "wiki-gaming" situation at the time regarding Renegade Rhetoric and Ask Vector Prime. However, with every new IDW crossover or Collaborative toy--and ''especially'' given the recent [[Go-Bots (comic)|Go-Bots]] comic, which was not a strict crossover, but very strongly implied a connection between the GoBots and the Cybertronian race--the way that we handle GoBot coverage on the wiki feels increasingly unhelpful and antiquated. Now that we've had five years of constant crossovers and also time to look back on our decisions with a cooler head, I am proposing that we shift back to our pre-"Renegade Rhetoric"-era method of covering these characters by giving them their own individual pages and treating them the way we would any other faction.

I am open to discussion as to whether or not we should include "Renegade Rhetoric" writeups, or even possibly a fiction writeup regarding their activities in the Scioli series--though I will remind users that we do have the GBwiki established already as a way to absorb non-''Transformers'' crossover information. However, I feel that "Echoes and Fragments" should absolutely be covered on their respective pages, the way we'd cover any IDW crossover. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:06, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Yes. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm ambivalent as, like you said, the fact these characters are mentioned on the wiki at all ''is'' because of that aforementioned wiki-gaming, and I'm not convinced the pages would be worth much. I wouldn't fight it, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:25, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Our system is just fine as-is and I see no reason to change it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::What, if anything, distinguishes GoBots that makes the Guardians and Renegades unavailble for articles, but the near 100 ponies eligible? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:43, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::There wasn't a decade of people ignoring and gaslighting our judgments, cheating the wiki's criteria, and personally insulting anyone who tried to stop them over My Little Pony. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:50, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::All of that is addressed in the post. The way it is now, we are actively limiting information due to fights from half a decade ago. If and/or when there is an IDW comic crossing over the two, we'll have to drop the facade, one that's already being called into question. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::So let's wait for the crossover and change our system "if and/or when" it ever happens. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Would "Gobots pages that would have more than just a single Renegade Rhetoric section can exist, while those that wouldn't stay in list hell until such time as they would" be an acceptable compromise here? That would pages that exist that have good reason to, without reinstating wiki-gaming from five years ago. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:34, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:(There's probably a case to be made for Echoes and Fragments being an exception, since it's essentially a full-on prose story rather than just "someone asked cy-kill if knew bob the go-bot and he said yes", but i'm not gonna argue that one too heavily) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

TFWiki's current policy towards GoBots reflects the franchise's status in 2004 - 2007, when it was seen as an external brand like My Little Pony or Starriors. Gobots were a separate species from a parallel universe with a different, partially organic physiology. But beginning in 2010 we saw the first hints of change as the Allspark Almanac 2 revealed that in some Alternate Universes, Gobots characters simply ''were'' Transformers. By 2015-2016 official publications revealed that they were just a highly divergent version of the Transformer species and started presenting new stories featuring them, generated by Hasbro and representing the brand in this new shared context.

Things '''changed.''' I'm not saying that we necessarily have to alter our policy, but we do have to acknowledge that the status of GoBots relative to Transformers has changed. If we do choose to integrate it any further into the wiki it will ''not'' be because the people demanding it all those years ago were "right," because the brand ''as it existed at that time'' did not warrant inclusion.

I have wrestled with this one and come down on either side but, for me, this is the critical factor:
'''The Evil One''' from GoBots is '''the Fallen'''. Same dude. Multiversal singularity. They are Transformers, full stop. They merit inclusion.

(I'm also going to be a jerk and say the events of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' should ''not'' be covered by the wiki, just because I'm a difficult asshole. All of the important stuff from the cartoon was represented in Renegade Rhetoric anyway.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:16, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm of the opinion that, bare minimum, the Scioli series should be covered here in full. The final issue makes it clear that the series *is* a Transformers story, and as fiction that was designed to tie in with Transformers from the start, it should be integrated by the same logic as post-Revolution Hasbroverse (which, I remind you, was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Reintegration of Hasbroverse wiki content|unanimously agreed upon like a week ago]]). -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::Doing ''that'' would require pages for all of the characters. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:30, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::And...? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:33, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::I'm just clarifying -- if we choose to cover the IDW Go-Bots miniseries which includes non-trivial Transformers elements... then we have to make pages for all the Go-Bots characters. It's all or nothing, you can't just tiptoe in and do 'a little Go-Bots' because the test case literally REQUIRES you to go whole-hog.
::::I think that's the right thing to do FWIW. They're Transformers and all modern stories treat them as Transformers. There was a time when keeping them separate or consigning their appearances to trivia was appropriate, but that simply is not the case anymore. They need proper pages. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 00:34, 2 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::I'm not up to date with any of the current GoBots media, but from a toyline standpoint at least, Hasbro has shown countless times that they are willing to repurpose GoBots characters as Transformers, even if it is just as basic as a reuse of the name. I don't really have any particular stance on GoBots coverage on this wiki, but I do feel that it should be more of an "all or nothing" case. Unlike MLP or G.I. Joe or Back to the Future, which just drops in a few cameos from characters living in a shared-universe of some sort, GoBots has been reintegrated into Transformers as Cybertronians almost every time. Imo, it has become more of a US vs Japan Headmaster/Targetmaster-type situation. Sometimes they are a different race, sometimes they're not. At the end of the day, they are inadvertently Transformers by association. I would even go so far as to say that they are a reverse-case of Beastformers. Started off as it's own thing and became Transformers, rather than the other way around. --[[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 03:56, 2 August 2021 (EDT)
I'm all in for giving pages to characters that appeared in ''Transformers''-branded fiction or fiction that officially included Transformers (Scioli series) and not dictating our content based on weird Internet grudges over toy robots. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:52, 2 August 2021 (EDT)

:Would this entail Robo Machine and thus Machine Robo through the fictional overlap the properties have, via the Robo Machines comic featuring Gobots and Machine Robo elements? [[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 11:07, 2 August 2021 (EDT)
::My instinct is 'no', but I would have to see the test cases. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 18:51, 4 August 2021 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots

2021-08-02T04:34:08Z

Derik: /* Revisiting our organizational schema */

= GoBots on this wiki=
''All the key discussions over the years about GoBots, and their place on the wiki.''

==2009==
===Executive Summary===
''A huge discussion about how much GoBots is appropriate, and why. After 4 months of discussion, a compromise that everyone can agree on, starting a GoBots sister wiki on the same server with the same code, is reached.''

====Canon====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Gobots]] franchise page.}}

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Initial kick-off====
{{note|This conversation, and all others unless explicitly noted, originally took place on [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]].}}
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Depth of coverage?====
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Some initial chime-ins====

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?====

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion=====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights =====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narly|Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]
::::Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example=====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Canon or not-canon=====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvelverse side-discussion redux=====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
:Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, the robot (Cyril?) who answered the letters page in the Marvel UK SW comics showed up in Robo-Capers --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:27, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:::There ARE multiple singularities in the MMverse. Stuff like the Living Tribunal, Otherworld, etc. They're just above it all/extradimensional locations/non-hostile. Galactus and even (most of?) the abstracts '''aren't''' (and the abstracts don't actually interact anyway, they use intrauniveral things called m-bodies to act for them). [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 22:34, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Multiverse side-discussion=====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
::::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Why do we care about what Heinlein says, again? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.====

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
=====Jim and Jeysie engage in a truly pointless argument (sorry, everyone)=====
:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Re: Point one: There's still a large number of Generation 1 characters who need their Sunbow cartoon fiction sections written up. And there's also missing Animated and Movie-related info out there. And that's just for starters. There's far more than just the esoteric stuff that needs writing up.
::::::::Re: Point two: If we're going to write up GoBots merely because it's a part of the TF universe, then we'd at least need to do the same for GI Joe, Marvel, and Star Wars as well. If anything, Marvel and Star Wars would have priority because they actually factor heavily into officially-branded Transformers merchandise. I find the argument about which franchise will have more official TF fiction than another completely irrelevant as we don't care (in terms of editing) what a franchise does or doesn't do outside of how it's interacted with Transformers.
::::::::Nor is what it will or won't do relevant either, as GI Joe at least already has a large chunk of existing fiction that would make it important enough to worry about regardless of whether it ever gets more TF-oriented fiction.
::::::::I'm not biased against GoBots or anything, I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. We simply don't need to in order to be successful at our "mission" of providing info on all things TF. Maybe if Hasbro ever has a brain fit and decides to stop making new TF stuff, and we finish writing up all of the existing stuff, we might need to expand our scope to stay viable, but that point isn't any time soon that I'm aware of. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Look, I don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but no. You are just flat-out wrong about that. We are not obligated to do anything. We can make exceptions. We can make judgment calls. We could, if we were so inclined, decide that the G.I. Joe Sunbow cartoon belongs in the wiki but the G.I. Joe comic doesn't. We could decide that ALL of G.I. Joe belongs in the wiki but M.A.S.K. (which has been subsumed into G.I. Joe) doesn't. We're not automatons.
:::::::::And that's ASIDE from all the specific arguments I've made above about why GoBots are different. And I've got some new ones, which are hardly relevant given that I'm throwing my weight behind the compromise solution, but ... Withered Hope was NOT a cross-over story. It was a Transformers-branded story, not a co-branded one. That makes a difference, or we could deign it to. You've got a good six solidly Transformers characters, with toys and everything, showing up in a Transformers non-crossover story. And yet, that story is a sequel to, and set in the universe of, the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon. In effect, that pulls in the entirety of the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon in a way that a co-branded story might not.
:::::::::And finally, you state that "I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff." Well, GoBots is clearly 'DIRECTLY related to officially-branded Transformers stuff'. If 'related' is you criteria, then we've already met it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's less a matter of obligation and more that all of your arguments to include GoBot material here exactly apply to GI Joe, etc. as well. (Sorry, but IMHO none of your arguments make GoBots remotely different in ways that are at all relevant.) Ergo, if we decided to suddenly catalog non-TF GoBots stuff here, it would be completely and utterly arbitrary to not include all non-TF GI Joe, etc. stuff as well. And I think it's really pointless to actually include lots of non-TF stuff like that when it is completely unnecessary to understand the TF stuff that is our main focus (since we already cover non-TF concepts to what is enough to understand their place within TF fiction), and we're not lacking for material to add yet.
::::::::::And, no, GoBot is ''not'' directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. The GoBot cartoon is, AFAIK, not officially-branded Transformers fiction. Only some of the GoBot characters are officially branded TF toys. Only some of the GoBot characters and concepts show up in Transformers-branded fiction. And... again, we already cover those toys and concepts that ''do'' show up in a sufficient enough manner to understand their place within Transformers-branded fiction and merchandise.
::::::::::Basically, if the remaining GoBots fiction and toys ever become officially branded as being Transformers, then IMHO it'll therefore be appropriate to include.
::::::::::Otherwise, I really think that the separate sister wiki idea is the way to go for a lot of reasons. It benefits GoBot fans in that they can catalog ''everything'' GoBots, not just what is "Hasbro-OK", and it benefits us in not taking our focus away from Transformers. There's really no downside there. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:38, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::You do realize what the word 'related' means, right? Are you arguing that something needs to be related to officially branded Transformers fiction, or that it needs to be itself branded as part of the Transformers fiction. Those are two different positions. You're stating one position and then, as far as I can tell, arguing for another one. It's making your whole position schizophrenic and hard to decipher.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'm stating I feel that it has to actually be a part of Transformers fiction or toys, or directly relevant and ''related'' to it like our out-of-universe articles on concepts regards the fandom and various aspects of creating and purchasing Transformers toys. Sorry if I fail to see what's so utterly difficult to comprehend about that. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:01, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::So, you'd be in favor of removing Megatron's appearance in G.I. Joe #138, because that wasn't branded Transformers?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:04, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Er... last I knew, GI Joe #138 was officially considered a part of the Transformers-branded Generation 2 comic series, so I fail to see how that's relevant.
::::::::::::::But in any case, my point is not at all hard to comprehend unless you're deliberately trying to be contrary. In which case, go talk to someone who hasn't had their patience for such things leeched out by the fandom already. I'm tired of being piled on that way because people can't just read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth or playing dumb. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::[[Image:Marvel GIJoe-138.jpg|thumb|right|150px| I don't see a Transformers logo on this cover]]I'm not playing dumb. I'm looking at your position - that only fiction that is 'officially branded Transformers fiction' and trying to poke holes in it. It's a totally legitimate strategy. So, looking at this picture, and actually reading the entire book, you won't find any Transformers logos or copyright notices. So, I assume you're going to champion its removal from this wiki, right? Or that you're going to modify your position.
:::::::::::::::And, as an aside, if you're tired of people who 'can't just read what [you] wrote', maybe the problem is you and not all the people out there who can't seem to exactly puzzle out the positions you so passionately argue for.
:::::::::::::::(The REALLY sad thing is, this argument is TOTALLY MOOT, since we both voted the SAME WAY on the compromise position.) Exasperatedly yours, [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:26, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We label it as "G.I. Joe Starring Snake-Eyes, ''Featuring Transformers: Generation 2 #138''". It follows directly from a Transformers story. That set of GI Joe comics, according to our articles, then leads directly into the Generation 2 comic. It seems from our write-up to thus be a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline. If that's ''not'' the case, then I ''would'' argue it doesn't have a place here.
:::::::::::::::Whereas the GoBots cartoon and the non-TF toys have zip to do with any TF-branded fiction or toys AFAIK. They're not considered a direct part of any TF storyline I know of. I don't have to watch or own any part of it to understand any TF story I know of. It's at best tangentially-related, and quite frankly there's a lot of stuff that's tangentially related to TF if we're going to go down that road, since that brings us right back to GI Joe, Star Wars, Marvel, etc.
:::::::::::::::And, no, I'm pretty sure the problem is people who can't simply read what I wrote and take it at face value. I fail to see what's so difficult about "If it's not a part of or directly related to official Transformers-branded toys or fiction, IMHO it's not our purview." I mean, it's one sentence, it ''looks'' like English, it seems straightforward. If you want to add your own things into it that I didn't say, then you've only got yourself to blame if you're confused, not me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Addendum: But yeah, I realize it's moot. Just... hurgh. Tired of almost every attempt to have a debate on something in this fandom being an exercise in frustration. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::::::::: We label it that, but it's not called that. Just LOOK at the cover! It follow three other G.I. Joes issues telling the same story and cameos a Transformer who had appeared in other Transformers stories, though in a different body. But it's not ITSELF a Transformers branded story. So, are you now changing your criteria so that non-transformers branded stories are sometimes ok for inclusion under some circumstances? Because that's NOT what you wrote earlier.
:::::::::::::::: (I'm not trying to insinuate anything ... it was YOU who brought up the idea that you've had many other people before have similar problems with your positions. Maybe the whole world IS crazy and you're the only sane one ... it's possible, I guess.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:13, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::My criterion still stands as "a part of ''or directly related to'' official Transformers-branded toys or fiction". I, at least, would classify being a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline (if it ''is'' in fact such-I have only our write-up to go by) as fitting that criterion. In that, you have to know/read it in order to not be missing part of a Transformers storyline.
:::::::::::::::::(And, well, I've had ''TF fans'' have similar problems. Very seldom had the same problems in other fandoms.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::So, in your view, a non-branded story that leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline meets your criteria of 'directly related.' Well, boom, we're done. Challenge of the GoBots leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline, Withered Hope. So, I'm glad that you've come around to my way of thinking. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:30, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::No, in my view, one of two things:
::::::::::::::::::::The GoBots cartoon is in no way a ''direct'' part of the plot of Withered Hope any more than the storyline of the universe Jackpot and Hubcap came from is a direct part of the plot of Gone Too Far, or all of Bulletbike's previous exploits are a direct part of I, Lowtech, or what have you. In contrast, it seems like the GI Joe and Generation 2 comics are actually all one single storyline all directly related. If you don't read the GI Joe comics, you're actually missing part of the plot of the storyline.
::::::::::::::::::::It's kind of like, say, imagine that All Hail Megatron had its first six issues branded as a non-TF story, and the last six branded as Transformers fiction. Even though it ended up branded as two different things, it's all directly related as one storyline. In contrast, while any story with Spiderman or another Marvel character in it obviously thus has that Marvel universe as part its background somehow, only that specific character and the aspects of him that furthered the story are relevant to our view of the fiction, not the entire extra universe he's a part of.
::::::::::::::::::::Or alternatively, if we did argue that anything that leads into a TF storyline even just as background is fair game, that still, again, applies to far more franchises than just GoBots, so there's still nothing special about that franchise that warrants singling out. Sorry, but your attempt at twisting my meaning around still isn't working. So, why not just go ahead and accept what I said at face value and call it a day? It'd certainly make ''my'' day happier. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::Have you actually read Withered Hope or the G.I. Joe story in question, or even watched CotG? CotG has a LOT more to do with Withered Hope than G.I. Joe #138 has to do with the rest of the story that follows. Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story. Meanwhile, Withered Hope made reference to, and relied on, GoBots characters and technologies extensively. The Astro-Beam, the Dimensional Interfacer, specific character traits and backgrounds. I'm not trying to twist your meaning, I'm trying to parse it. There's a difference. I'm willing to accept that you don't like GoBots as a part of this wiki. I'm just not willing to accept that you have a logical, consistent reason for it that doesn't exclude other parts of the fiction. Then again, if you're not actually familiar with the fiction in question (and you've admitted that you haven't even read the G.I. Joe unbranded story), then that might explain a few things. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::Actually, this is totally, utterly pointless. I don't care that your viewpoint is not internally consistent. I'm bowing out of this argument. Post whatever you like in rebuttal, and just assume that I disagree with you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, I've read Withered Hope; I didn't see any difference between the GoBots technology vs. pretty much any other technology from TF fiction insofar as understanding enough to get the story. Or how getting a feel for the GoBots characters was any different than getting a feel for Cryotek or Crystal Widow or any of the other TransTech characters that have pretty much only gotten their characterization through the prose stories. I didn't feel like, "Well, this makes zero sense/feels like I'm missing part of the plot unless I've seen the GoBots cartoon."
::::::::::::::::::::::::"Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story."
::::::::::::::::::::::::So, er. Is that different than something like Infiltration #0?
::::::::::::::::::::::::And, my viewpoint is perfectly consistent, as evidenced by the fact that I'm pretty much ending up finding myself having to repeat myself over and over again because nothing you've said contradicts my point. Again, the only reason you're confused is because you keep inventing your own meanings and whatnot that I didn't actually say instead of paying attention to what I did. I doubt most people are going to find anything remotely confusing about "branded as or directly related to TF fiction/toys" because most people aren't doing mental gymnastics to find a convoluted way that something that's "nice but not absolutely important" background info at best and a cameo at worst is somehow important to know to understand some TF fiction. Sheesh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

=====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity=====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====A potential solution====
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::I could get behind that as a compromise.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::If you guys created a separate GoBots wiki, I would gleefully contribute as much as I contribute here. Wouldn't be too hard, either, since a good chunk of the episodes are available online and Counter X has scans of most of the really hard to find comics from the US and the UK. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:02, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be for it as well. We'd need an inter-wiki linking schema-- "gobots:" and "transformers:" seem dangerous-- there's gonna be articles called "Transformers: Subtitle", which makes that... um... potentially fraught. How about "w:gb:" vs. "w:tf:"? That mirrors the interwiki linkign schema used by Wikia to cross-link their sites, and is nicely distinct. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:30, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Honestly, I was about to suggest that myself, but I've been highly distracted as of late. Seems like the best solution to me... plus, it's a perfect excuse to haul out the GoBots bin and do extensive photoshoots of those. Of course, the big question... what do we name the band? GBWIKI to keep with TFWIKI's theme? That's where I'm leaning. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hrm... the toyline was just "GoBots," but the cartoon was "Challenge of the GoBots"... ''ah!'' But there were GoBot ancillary materials (like storybooks) not branded COTG, but simply "GoBots."
::There is no clear delineation that corresponds to the portion of the brand Hasbro may own. Calling it "Challenge..." would implicitly limit it to the cartoon and exclude other things. "GoBots" is probaby what we want to hit. So yeah-- "GBWiki" since the reason we're "TF" instead of "Transformers" is to avoid Hasbro's trademark-- and they '''do''' own the trademark on "GoBots." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:43, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could likely whip up a take on the GoBots logo for it when I get home.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I am particularly thinking: "GOBOTS - MIGHTY ROBOTS, MIGHTY WIKI" as the tagline.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:56, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Challenge of the GoBoxes!" Naahh, of course not. I just wanted to say it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::On that note, it wouldn't be hard at all to throw together a version of the Go Boxes using the GB logo's "GO" instead of our usual Prime-trailer-inspired one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:15, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Heheheheheheheheh. -[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Some surely practical suggestions:
::::*'''Interwiki schema:''' <nowiki>[[w:gb:Crasher]] / [[w:tf:Crasher (G1)]]</nowiki>
::::*'''site url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net (avoiding "Gobots" in the url since it's trademarked)
::::*'''Example article url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/w3/index.php?title=Crasher
::::*'''.htaccess cleared url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/wiki/Crasher
::::"w3" is arbitrary... sub-domains won't actually overlap the file-structure of the existing wiki. (But I feel like installing multiple wikis on one db-server might require a prefix.) Sub-domain feels like a good idea-- both because it's free, and because it enforces our co-branding. Anyway, I'm throwing those parameters out.
::::There '''seems''' to be consensus on this, but if we genuinely intend to spin off another wiki, I feel like there should probably be a formal community vote on the matter. You know-- since TFWiki ''isn't'' run by a cabal of #wiggii members?
::::Say... Measure passage requires 50% of voting editors and 2/3 of voting administrators voting "yea"-- with at least 1/3 of all administrators participating in the vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:11, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How many admins to we have?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I count nine. How many are actually active right now is another matter. Also, we need to do this. GoBots won't get a wiki at all otherwise. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, it'd require at least 3. Which is reasonable, given that TFWiki has some fairly inactive admins. (In a proper 'security council' scenario you'd want 6 of 9 admins participating for any measure to pass. 3 of 9 with at least 2 yea just ensures minimal oversight.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hopefully, we won't need a "security council" anytime soon. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::We don't have a lot of big votes like this one. AFAIK, the move from Wiki and re-licencing have been it.
:::::::::The admin-requirement really only exists to keep a bunch of editors from proposing something silly/crazy on a dead weekend and declaring it passed. (Not that the community would go along with it, but having a bare-minimum administrator rubberstamp requirement heads off potential mischief.) At least, this was the arbitrary requirement I came up with when we passed the relicensing vote, since I'm '''not''' an admin and I was the one proposing it, it seemed important as a means to establish the legitimacy of the vote. (We only got 3 admin voting for that... it was in the middle of convention season and half our people were gone.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::'''Is''' this what we think we want to do? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Those links link to wikia. Odd. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:00, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, very odd. KILL THEM NOW. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
On an interwiki schema... why not just <nowiki>[[tfwiki:*]] and [[gbwiki;*]]</nowiki>? It has the advantage of simplicity. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, to me this seems the easiest to remember.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::''*shrug*'' Forward-compatability? Site names are fine for everything we link to now, but a future sister-site could overlap existing article names. Frankly, my real motivation is that w:subject: names mean I could type "w:starwars:" instead of constantly misspelling "wookieepedia:" (I always forget the double-e.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And yeah, I think "w:name:" is currently set to link to wikia. Hrm. "ss:subject:"? (Sister-site?) "p:subject:"? (partner.)
::Wikipedia has a buttload of arbitrary prefixes for interwiki linking. A single consistent schema seems better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, this would seem to be a good opportunity to kill all the wikia interwiki links (except for the link-exchange deal with Wookieepedia). If a wikia page must be linked to, let it be an external (nofollow) link.
:::And the proposed gbwiki would be a sister/subproject, not a true external wiki like <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:*]]</nowiki> (and note the lack of a secondary prefix there). - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Regards an interwiki schema, why not just "h" for "Hasbro"? h:tf: and h:gb: And I second killing all of the wikia links except for Wookieepedia. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:41, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Not to be a bummer,I love the idea of a GoBot sister wiki, sounds like a lot of fun creating and reading, but an important point has been raised in the Allspark discussion of this: Can we afford it? Our Wiki apparently dosen't always quite pay for itself ad-wise and is basically kept afloat by Walky. Yes, a GoBot wiki would be smaller (and hopefully cheaper) but it also would likely be less popular a draw for adds. (GBs being much less mainstream than TFs now are). Again, it just seemed like a point that should be raised before we dive into the cool project... --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I offered to make a donation in that thread. Walky said that this wiki costs around $160 a month to maintain, with around $130 being covered by the ads, with those numbers fluctuating every month, obviously. A GoBots wiki would be only a fraction of the size of thise wiki, even when 100% completed in every way imaginable. With ads factored in, about how much do you think we'd need a month to cover the remainder? I could throw in $10 to $20 every month or thereabouts, and if a handful of people sporadically felt the urge to donate equal or less, you think we'd be covered or at least took the brunt of the financial burden off of Walky's shoulders?
:If we CAN do a GoBots wiki, it'd be nice if money wasn't what kept us from making it happen. But hey, I understand that that's the way the world goes 'round and all. Just sayin' that if a fraction of us skipped McDonald's once a month and gave that fiver to the wiki, we might be more or less financially secure. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Of course, we could just run the theoretical Gobots wiki on the same server, with the same ad boxes. Unless somehow we got a MASSIVE spike in traffic from Gobots fans that aren't Transformers fans (which I am somehow not seeing), it would probably work out to be exactly the same. (Not to discourage anyone from helping the wiki financially. You can do that also and it would help regardless. I'm just sayin'.) --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::This is good news. This would be ideal, if possible.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::What about a donation drive? We could have a meter on the frontpage, and after the donations reach an amount that could keep the wiki afloat for a while, we could launch GBWiki. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====Opposition====
Do we have the time or "manpower" for this? This wiki still needs a lot of work. For example, The Unicron Trilogy articles (especially Armada Mini-Cons) and the Beast Wars/Machines are more or less still a mess, and not up to the standards of more recent articles or more frequently-updated articles. I think we should work on getting these pretty important eras of '''Transformers''' up to scratch before our more frequent contributors divert (some) of their attention and free time to GoBots. And yes, I have recently put work into updating Armada and Beast Wars articles where possible, since our other members are most ably handling everything else. And no, I'm not suggesting the wiki should be work, I just think we should get this into order before we start doing something else. Maybe it's my probable Aspergers talking. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:50, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:You're assuming that people who would be working on this have any real knowledge or familiarity with UT materials. Someone may absolutely hate Armada/Energon/Cybertron and have no material to add there, but have much material to add to GoBots. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::From what I've seen, a good number of the people in this discussion or have discussed it elsewhere are those who have no problem with the UT or actually like it. But there's also Beast Wars - if everybody here likes BW, why are the articles so bad? :p I mean, if I was a newcomer to Transformers (or a returning fan because of the movies), I'd be pretty dissapointed if I came here looking for information about this "Beast Wars" other fans are always raving about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::At one point finishing all the BW or G1/RiD articles seemed like a pipe dream. Effort over time did it.
:::Frankly, I think the potential for such a split to draw in new editors outweighs the negatives of potentially splitting people's attention. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and of course, I can't make people do things they don't feel like doing. Still, concerns are concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:37, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wasn't trying to say that any particular person hated UT or BW, just that the assumption that the editors who would be working on GB would be drawn away from other parts is not necessarily true. Some people may become more active on mainstream TF articles even while working on GB articles. Something different often energizes people, and that energy can carry over to other things.
::::::Yeah, you can't force people to work on articles that don't interest them. If the spirit moves them to work on BW and UT they will. Adding a GoBot "section"/sister-wik wouldn't stop anything from happening (especially if it isn't happening to begin with). And it might just draw in new contributers or set someone off on a wiki-fying binge that gets a bunch of TF stuff done too. (ZacWilliam, logged out again, dumb laptop)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::People will work on what interests them. People doing productive work in one area will naturally discover other areas to focus on. Broadening our scope thusly will most likely bring in new editors, or at least reinvigorate old ones. Frankly, the whole argument that we shouldn't allow our editors to work on what they want in the hopes that they work on what someone else wants them to do is pretty flawed. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh come on, this is like not letting a kid eat dessert until he's finished his broccoli. "You want GoBots? Well you can't have em until you finish your Unicron Trilogy!" "But I haaaaate the Unicrooon Trilogyyyyy!" "STOP WHINING!" --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hell, the original ''The Transformers'' cartoon episodes still need a crapton of work (basically, if the Errors sections aren't several screens long, then we aren't doing our job!) Still, I don't see why any of that should stop us. Manpower may not be infinite, but it's not fixed, either; a wider net of subject area will likely attract a few more editors. And people who would work on UT stuff will probably do it anyway sooner or later, even if they do get distracted by GoBots for a while. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::You'll ALL see once I complete these sections by myself and spend hundreds of dollars importing DVD sets* for shows that I don't like YOU'LL ALL SEE!
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>This is a lie. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:59, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

====The Vote====
Well, um, let's do this thing.

* Jim Sorenson, votes '''aye'''.
* I'm in '''support''' of this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye''' - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]]
* I support this. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''YES'''. I'm all for it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:31, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Go for '''yes''', if there are no major problems. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 12:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Oh '''hell yes'''. A GoBot wiki sounds awesome, and how much time/manpower can that really take? There's a really tiny amount of GB stuff compared to TF, after all. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:53, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*Definatly a '''Yes''', if we don't do it who will? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye'''. This place is volunteer-based, let people work on what they want. --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]]
* '''Why the hell not?''' [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 15:07, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* I say '''Go''' for GoBots. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:09, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* [[User:Derik]] votes to '''affirm''' the proposed extension. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Support. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Sure''', why the heck not? I doubt I'll have much hand in it, but it's a good thing to have, and it would definitely be unique! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Another '''yes''' here. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Now that it seems to be its own entity, I am now in '''support''' of this addition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:35, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Oui.''' --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Yes'''. Best of all worlds for everyone, IMHO. (Although I personally won't end up contributing to it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Why the hell not.''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 20:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* A GoBots wiki? '''Yeeeeeess'''. (have you ever noticed how people always try to transcribe BW Megatron's "Yes" with a lot of Ss? But it's not the 'S' that he stretches; it's the short 'E' sound. "Yesssssssssssssss" would be like a snake hissing. I suppose it's in reaction to the English rule that turns two consecutive Es into a long E sound. "Yees!" ) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
**That's technically a long "i" sound. '''Sure''' to whatever we're voting for! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:21, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Fo' shizzle'''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:21, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Aye me hearties!''' [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 06:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yep''' (and M.A.S.K. has been subsumed into GI Joe somebody said? Since when?) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 13:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**Matt Trakker got a Joe toy this year and the bio card featured the revelation that VENOM was a sub-unit of COBRA and that MASK works for GI Joe. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Heck yes.''' (Also, MASK sucked) --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:54, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yes.''' (If MASK is part of G.I. Joe, we'll just have to eventually make another sister wiki for G.I.Joe, and then that wiki can have its own sister wiki for MASK. It'll be Tfwiki's cousin wiki. lol.)--[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:03, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**G. I. Joe has a Wiki, it's just not well maintained.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*Well, if there's that many people who want to work on the thing, '''Yes''' for me.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

====Results====
OK, I'm calling this thing. With 27 votes for yes and 0 votes for no, including votes from four admins, there is clearly overwhelming (unanimous, in fact) support for this endeavor. Awesome. Technical-minded folks, what are the next steps from here?

(Just for fun, let's see ... 88K! If this discussion were an article, it'd be the 16th largest on the site, so it's actually longer than 99.8% of the content we've produced.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:43, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
:Sweet. And, we really probably should archive this whole discussion as a "topic" thingy, I think... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah: this discussion is giving insane length warnings. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 09:20, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

Seriously, what are the next steps we need to take? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:I believe it waits on Scout and McFly having the time to set up the changes on our server. (Which, since I think that might involve Squid configuration might take awhile.)
:If people want to get started I suppose I ''could'' set up a placeholder mediawiki install on my domain, and when GBWiki-proper was ready I'd just hand them a database backup. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:57, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::Would you be willing? I think keeping the momentum going while enthusiasm is high is a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure. I'll set it up this evening. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:54, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Per request, a temporary home while TFwiki's hosts get their ducks in a line. [http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/ gbwiki.covertutopia.com/] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::So...um...we can get started, then? On the "early draft" stuff? I see no one's made any changes since you put that up, so I'm hesitent, that's all. Can I start on articles there now? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:38, 11 January 2010 (EST)
::::::I get the feeling from the edit summaries that folks can get started, it's just that everyone's been too busy/waiting for someone else to do it first. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)

====Getting Under Way====

Random thoughts: 1) Do we know for sure the "tech folk" (whoever they are) have seen this discussion, vote and result and are working on it, or planning to? I only ask cause I'm not sure who exactly "they" are and I don't remember seeing anyone saying anything like "we're on it". 2)Once things are definately underway, shound there not be an announcement or link on this side of the wiki somehere letting folks know about the new section/sister open for editting? And if yes, where would be good? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:05, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:I think it's a good idea, once we finalize some of the real basic stuff over on GBWiki's end. As it stands, we don't even really have a skeleton over there - there's a "list of Go-Bots episodes" page and that's about it. I think we need to get at least a rudimentary framework hung up - both in the sense of A: at least some stub articles for major characters and stories and a general "franchise overview" page to direct people around the site and B: getting all our formatting templates put into motion (character appearance boxes, episode navigation, etc.) At this point, I wouldn't really want to announce it on the front page because there isn't anything there to look at. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::Why does gb.tfwiki.net redirect to transformers wikia? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:32, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm guessing it's an artifact of when tfwiki.net originally pointed to Wikia. ''Any'' subdomain you type in other than www goes to Wikia right now, apparently.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::::It's fixed! --[[Special:Contributions/67.149.197.71|67.149.197.71]] 12:56, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Realize that I'm asking this out of a profound ignorance as to how the wiki "mechanically" works, but I assume that it just redirects to us now right, still not to edit-able GoBot-pages-to-be?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:04, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::Hmm, now all subdomains lead to tfwiki.net, but they're returning valid pages rather than redirecting to the "real" URL. If people link to "blah.tfwiki.net" then the search engines will start indexing the whole site a second time under that domain. The other subdomains should redirect as www.tfwiki.net does. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:26, 14 November 2009 (EST)

::::::[http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aen.tfwiki.net] [http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aww.tfwiki.net] See? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:30, 11 January 2010 (EST)

==2010==
===Executive Summary===
''There is no GoBots sister wiki.''

====What happened?====
http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/wiki/Main_Page
:"GoBots Wiki has a problem

:Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
:Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.

:(Can't contact the database server: Access denied for user 'emopanda'@'localhost' (using password: YES) (localhost))"

I was slagging ecstatic to see that there was going to be a Go-Bots wiki, because I knew next to nothing about 'em and wanted to learn about them. This is just disheartening. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 19:21, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's server, so check with him, though ISTR there hadn't been much info added to the GoBots wiki when it was up. The original intention was to run it on the same server as TFwiki - don't know what happened (or didn't happen) there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::My impression was that Derik's was only set up as a stop gap till the wiki got the one everyone voted for up. That never happened. I got the impression that though the community voted a big yes for it, the powers that be weren't that into it so the vote ammounted to nothing. Which is a shame cause I was really excited to see it happen. :P --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 20:48, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::The powers that be are busy getting married next month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::It was voted "yes" a year ago. I mean no offence meant, but that's a long time to get a ball rolling. With no appreciable news or announcements in that year I think assuming the big "yes" vote amounted to nothing is kinda understandable. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 21:01, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::General lack of interest. I suspect the number of people who can recite chapter-and-verse of every single Gobots episode, the way we here do for TFs, is very small. Of that small group, fewer still knew this project existed. "It might be cool" works for a half-hour download, not for creating an entire website devoted to about 70 hours of programming and 200 toys when you aren't already ''really'' into it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:40, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I was interested at the time because I thought doing an episode guide might be fun. But Counter-X came out with one recently and has about the most thorough collection of info on GoBots toys, merchandise and media; basically everything that would be up on a GoBots wiki, anyway. So I sorta lost my enthusiasm. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 22:47, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::For me, and I have to imagine some others given the widespread enthusiasm in the vote above, it has nothing to do with loss of enthusaism or lack of interest at all, but everything to do with no place to start. The vote was for a "seperate but linked" wiki meaning not just writing up gobot stuff and posting it here but waiting for the apropriate seperate framework to be given. If the OK was given to add Gobots just to our current wiki I'd start constructing GoBot articles and Character pages right away. Without it there's nothing for a potential poster to do but wait on the ptb to start things rolling. I am definately still enthusiastic about the idea and would definately still contibute if it ever comes to pass. (As a side note, the whole GoBotron is Primus thing from the Allspark Almanac 2 makes me want to add this stuff more than ever.) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 03:10, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I admit that I don't know all that much about GoBots, but by god I would learn as much as I could just so I could help contribute to a GoBots wiki. Without a wiki like this there really isn't any one place to find out everything about GoBots, without having to shell out for a book that probably doesn't have a very wide distribution. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:16, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The [http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots page] that Spengler mentioned is quite detailed. I spent some time a while ago reading though some of the pages, and it kinda made me wish the show was out on DVD. I don't think it ever screened here. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:28, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::As good as Counter-X is, it doesn't have the integration of information that we have here. For example, toy and cartoon data are on separate pages. Also, having multiple contributors means that things each individual is missing can still be covered if other individuals have access to them. Just because there is a decent Go-Bots site doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make our own, it just means that we should try to make ours even better.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:39, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

==2011==
===Executive Summary===
''Newbie brings up the idea again.''

====Cartoon?====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)]] page.}}

Why didn't we add info on Cy-Kill's appearances in the cartoon?[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 01:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
: We have already added info on all of Cy-Kill's appearances in the Transformers cartoon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:Where? I only see his appearance in the timelines comic, not the gobots or transformers cartoon.
::I refer you to what I just said. This is a Transformers wiki, not a Gobots wiki. We do not catalog Gobots fiction, only Transformers fiction. If Cy-Kill shows up in Transformers stuff, we catalog that. And we have. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::But Gobots and Transformers were both created by Hasbro, and Gobots are related to Transformers somehow. If you watched the documentuary Triple Changer, then you'd see that Gobots inspired Transformers. So basically, more info belongs here.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 15:47, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Read [[GoBots#Pre-GoBots]] and get back to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::They are CURRENTLY in the same company.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 16:28, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::No they aren't. Hasbro doesn't own all of Go-Bots. They merely bought Tonka. That doesn't mean they own all of the intellectual property involved. Rival toy company Bandai still owns the toys and Hanna-Barbara still owns the cartoon. At best, Hasbro owns some names. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Not to agree with this guy per say, but I just want to remind folks: 1) We did hold a vote of users, who at the time overwhelmingly approved that they wanted to do a separate-but-linked Go-Bots wiki as a sister thing under the TFwiki.net banner. And 2) Since that vote the Allspark Almanac officially established that the much interlinked franchise is a part of the TF Multiverse (if there was any doubt) and MORE that GoBotron is their universes body of Primus and the Go-Bots are their universes TFs. Soooo... Why keep them out? It's not like they'd even add THAT much. They've had nothing to talk about that's not here already in 20 years, and were fairly small then. I really can't think of a valid reason to ignore the retcon that they are and have always been TFs. I kinda feel they belong here. They didn't always, but now? Yes.--[[Special:Contributions/99.103.104.77|99.103.104.77]] 17:04, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::The AllSpark Almanac may claim that GoBots are fictionally linked to TFs, but that only makes that statement canonical, it doesn't make a cartoon that is not licensed fiction and does not belong to Hasbro canonical and Wiki-worthy. As for the GoBots Wiki... it was attempted, but nothing really came of it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:17, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::G.I. Joe and Jem are also in the Transformers multiverse. Probably also Spider-Man and Avengers. The AllSpark Almanac connects like a dozen series to the Transformers multiverse. WE ARE NOT ADDING ALL OF THOSE SERIES TO THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:19, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::It linked a lot of series Hasbro has ZERO rights to as well. So um... yeah. --[[Special:Contributions/71.70.225.1|71.70.225.1]] 19:18, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I remember being told that the GoBots wiki still had some technical details to work out before it was really ready to go live and then never heard anything more. Was it ever actually open for general editing? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:22, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::Derik had one set up on his own site (before it died) as a temporary measure while one got sorted out here. A GoBots wiki doesn't absolutely have to be hosted in the same place as TFWiki. If there's sufficient interest, one could be set up elsewhere. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::Well, 1) the retcon did more than place GoBots in the TF multiverse. It said they ARE Transformers and Primus IS Gobotron. That's different in my opinion than a crossover with Spidey or JEM. It's an apotheosis., which makes them and all about them valid material for us retroactively imo. But hey, I'm not gonna argue with the powers that be if they disagree. 2) Yeah, the GoBot sister wiki wasn't really tried as far as I've heard. It was voted for. Approved. And there was then never any movement to make it as far as I ever saw here. Derik was cool enough to make a placeholder site, but nothing ever moved here. Not a criticism, just saying If it had started I would have, and totally still would, contribute. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:37, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::If AllSpark Almanac claimed Pandora was another body of Primus, that wouldn't mean we'd start putting Avatar stuff in the wiki. The claim is canonical, but the fiction isn't. Simple as that. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:42, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I completely disagree. But I also don't care enough to argue the point. So... Meh, I guess. I'd rather the discussion moved to the voted for sister wiki. Cool idea I would have loved to have happened. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49#Gobots_on_the_wiki..._again --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:28, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

==2012==
===Executive Summary===
''More of the same.''

==== Integration ====

Okay since this discussion shut down and the wiki seems to be dead I thought I'd bring this up. Via the Club Fiction and the stuff seen in the Almanac, can we do an integration of the GoBots and Go-Bots based on them canonically having Universal Streams and being Transforming Robots? (I suppose this would also cover Robotix)
:No. There are almost no GoBots characters, no GoBots fiction before about 2006, and no Robotix characters or fiction whatsoever, to have ever been published under the appropriate brands required for inclusion here. The very small amount of material appropriate for inclusion is here already. The TFs canonically exist within some version of the Marvel universe, and yet we don't include every single other Marvel character on this wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:45, 12 January 2012 (EST)
:: Ah, but that's my point, if the GoBots and Bo-Bots have been retroactively canonized as altverse Transformers, does that not make them under the proper brand? (Unlike , let's say Captain America, who's never been revealed to be a Transfomers within the Marvel Comics Continuity) This isn't like the Sunbowverse, where non-TF elements are ignored unless pertinent to TF, this is a whole new kit n caboodle which has been declared to be TF under a different name. Just my five cents, since it seems this discussion just sorta petered out.
::: Discussion has petered out because we've explained a bojillion times why it's not going to happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::I ask again about the sister GoBots wiki seperate but connected to ours that people voted an overewhelming yes for doing way back when but then no one ever it set up. People seemed very interested in doing that when it was voted for during the first time this came up. People were still interested in working on it last time this came up. Just saying'.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 10:45, 13 January 2012 (EST)
:::::It is impossible to retroactively brand something. Hell, there are parts of Darth Vader that actually have been declared and marketed as a TF of some kind, but his prior 30 years of personification beyond those very limited branded appearances do not count and do not appear. It is exactly the same with name-dropping Robotix and then pretending it counted.
:::::At this point I am comfortable determining that nobody gives a shit about GoBots beyond the context of their minimal TF crossovers. It's been like 2 years since the vote and nothing has been done, and no one seems to be trying it anywhere else on the entire Internet either. The Almanac cannot create licenses retroactively, it can just say things and we can go on rightfully ignoring them. It's 2012 and wiki software is easily available - if anyone cared it would have been done. Sorry if I come off too strong, it's just that the non-licensed-hood of every pre-2006 scrap of GoBots fiction and characterization is incredibly open and shut and I really don't see why people keep coming here to try to wish that away. --Thy, not logged in
:::::::Thy, the vote was to start it on our serves as a linked but equal thing and then our folks would fill it once it existed. Every time this comes up as it has multiple times. Folks say that they'd loved to edit and add to it as a companion to ours if it existed. But no one has set it up for them to do it. Basically the interest is there in the community whomedit the wiki but not in the folks who administer the wiki, yes? That seems to be what I see.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:03, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::Gotta agree with the anon here. When the GoBots wiki was to be set up I was told that there were some problems to be worked out with the underlying programming and we would be told when it was ready. The next thing I knew, it was no longer accessible at all. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:04, 13 January 2012 (EST)

==June, 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''Things heat up, as [[Ask Vector Prime]] starts to generously include information regarding GoBots''

==== GoBots articles ====

Is there some reason why we're not having full coverage of the GoBots characters' exploits in GoBots fiction? It seems kind of silly to acknowledge their existence in Transformers media and then... not really provide relevant information. It's not really like there's any cohesive GoBots site with all information in one spot, you know? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 03:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:There is such a site, and its existence has been cited in the past here as one of multiple valid reasons why adding GoBots to this wiki has never gotten off the ground. http://counter-x.net/gobots/ --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:34, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::As good as that site is, it doesn't go into nearly as much detail about its topic as we do about ours. Also, it is maintained by a much more limited set of editors (maybe even just one?). Our larger editor base could bring more eyes and viewpoints to the material. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:07, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:It's been discussed in the past with some trepidation, and the idea of a "sister wiki" for GoBots content was floated, but nobody really seemed into the idea and we haven't talked about it since. At this point, though, with more and more GoBots stuff working its way into TF fiction, along with the complete release of the GoBots cartoon on DVD, perhaps it's time to talk about giving the GoBots show and characters their full and proper due on TFWiki again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:29, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I don't actually know all that much about the GoBots *coughthatswhyweneedinformativearticlescough*, but I'd be more than willing to help with article maintenance and setup if we ever decide to go ahead with it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 05:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::As I've said before, when the GoBots wiki was proposed I was told that there were technical issues to be taken care of before it could be opened for editing and that the community would be told when it was ready. The next I heard about it was that it was being shut down as not having attracted interested editors. I am still fully supportive of either option, a sister wiki or integration. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:12, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::A sister wiki seems like an weird excuse to overcomplicate things. Is there really any reason to not have all the information in one spot? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 07:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::At the risk of overcomplicating things further, since we'd be including Go-Bots because the characters were retroactively made into alternate universe Cybertronians/Transformers, would we also provide complete coverage of [[Robotix]] since it was retroactively altered the same way? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 07:59, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::I'd say no, because we wouldn't be covering GoBots specifically because they were retconned to be alt-universe TFs, we'd be covering them because involvement of their universe and characters has become a recurring thing, and the two franchise have always been paired in some capacity or another. Maybe when Robotix actually does something that ''matters'' and isn't just a winky in-joke; otherwise covering them would amount to covering something like Jem or Inhumanoids in full. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::: Oh god please no to Robotix.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::::For the sake of argument: TFWiki don't have complete coverage of G.I. Joe, despite it's many interactions with Transformers. TFWiki has relevant articles, but not complete coverage. Why do so for GoBots? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] ([[User talk:Crockalley|talk]]) 08:10, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Can you REALLY not see a difference between G.I.Joe, Jem, Inhumanoids, etc and GoBots and Robotix? ''Really''? GoBots and Robotix have both been said to be counterparts of the Transformers. Joe, Jem, and the Inhumanoids haven't. Covering GoBots and Robotix fiction IS covering TF fiction, covering Joe, Jem, and Inhumanoids fiction is not. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:15, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::For the love of God, NO. We already feature all the GoBots characters and stories that were published under the TF brand label, just like the relevant Avengers and G.I.Joes. We don't pull in all of the everythings that all of their colleagues ever did in unrelated, non-Transformers stories. It will never belong here. Adding 80 characters and 100 hours of programming? No. As someone said in one of the prior iterations of this, if Vector Prime said that Pandora was a transdimensional embodiment of Cybertron and Eywa was its Vector Sigma portal, we wouldn't fill this wiki with every character and animal from Avatar. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Avatar isn't a property owned by Hasbro nor something that's been constantly involved in the Transformers multiverse, so I'm not seeing the comparison. It also has its own dedicated fanbase and resources, which isn't really something you can say for GoBots; its presence in real life almost wholly overlaps Transformers. (It'd be around 26 hours, to be accurate.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::And, ultimately, why does it matter that much if we make one exception for this? It's not going to result in a full-blown biography of Spider-Man from Earth-616 (which exists elsewhere in plenty of places) or full coverage on G.I. Joe (which has its own fanbase that can make a resource if they want to). We're talking about a small subset of articles that you aren't required to work on. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:54, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why wouldn't it result in a full bio of Spiderman? The distinction between the two offtopic properties is arbitrary and insignificant. If you want to talk about ownership, Hasbro owns Visionaries and we know they canonically exist in the Animated galaxy. Shall we bring in articles on Leoric and Heskidorr and the Pig Imp? If you break down the rule of "TF branded material only," then the only thing keeping all the Inhumanoids out is personal preference and "oh, come on!"-ing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::''Logic.'' Any potential revival of Visionaries is not going to be done under the Transformers brand. Spider-Man does not exist under the Transformers brand, G.I. Joe does not exist under the Transformers brand. GoBots now, for all intents and purposes, ''does''. A full revival being hilariously unlikely, anything Hasbro does with the IP in the future - as well as everything it is currently actually ''allowing'' licensees to regularly do with the IP in a capacity beyond "referential nudge-nudge wink wink jokes" - is under the Transformers brand. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::On the contrary - the only published Visionaries story material in 29 years was under the TF brand. It is far more likely that like Inhumanoids, the Visionaries will continue only as a hanger-on of Tramsformers fiction Easter eggs forever. And all of the GoBots material that was published under the TF brand, and is in any way related to real TF characters and stories, is already here. Which is all that belongs here. Hasbro owned Battle Beasts from the start and we currently include all the actual TF branded appearances of Battle Beasts / Beastformers. But we give only the most sparse coverage to the American comic book and American Battle Beast characters because it wasn't a real, branded, linked TF story the way the Japanese material was. We have to stick with standards and not just what people might personally find fun. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:40, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::That's why I stipulated a capacity beyond referential in-jokes for fans, which is all the Inhumanoids or Visionaries references amount to. I think where the disagreement lies is in whether or not we think of GoBots as another franchise that is being "referenced" or having "crossovers" with Tranformers - that's what Visionaries is, but my stance is that it is ''no longer'' the case with GoBots, but that GoBots is now ''part'' of the Transformers franchise and warrants broader treatment than Spider-Man-style articles where we pretend we don't know who Leader-1 is. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:52, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Also, slippery slope arguments are silly, unless the people involved are idiots with no judgement capacity, computers, or state legislatures. You're concerned about things that no one is advocating or interested in. Regardless, I think everyone gets that you're against the idea.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::That's not a slippery slope argument. That's pointing out that putting in Go-Bots would be inconsistent with how we treat other non-Transformers franchises. And, frankly, I think Jim Sorenson should probably recuse himself from this discussion since he's the guy trying to use official means to marry TF and Go-Bots with rubber bands, Elmer's glue, and footnotes. It feels a little disingenuous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:23, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Fair point. I'll bow out. (Though I'm far from the first or only person to play in this sandbox. In fact, expect more from others in the very near future.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:55, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

IF we decided to do this, I think we'd want strict guidelines from the start about what is and is not in scope. Since the toys were mostly licensed from Bandai, a Hasbro competitor, I would say they should NOT be included. Also, ancillary media has been pretty much ignored by TF fiction.

My gut says that The Challenge of the GoBots cartoon (65 episodes, 1 movie) is about the extent of what we'd want to include. No coloring books, no Machine Robo, none of that. It's the easiest bit to do, the most influential, and the bit that Hasbro mostly has claim to.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Hasbro has a claim to the cartoon? Then how come [http://www.wbshop.com/product/challenge+of+the+gobots-+the+series,+volume+one+%28mod%29+1000486768.do Time Warner sells it], no probs, without any Hasbro logos anywhere? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:08, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::The text on the back of the original mini-series DVD refers to "Hasbro's GoBots". - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::And the newer ones? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::They don't mention it, no, but I'm just pointing out that Warner's put it on there. Hasbro don't ''own'' the cartoon, we know that. I think we can all at least agree GoBots is a ''weird'' case, where Hasbro own the "idea" of the property and the characters and story and such but none of the actual physical ''assets''. It's my contention that those "ideas" are now a part of the Transformers brand, and not guest-stars from another franchise. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::As far as I can discern, they own the name, what other trademarks they've maintained, and that's about it. They don't own the character likenesses and they certainly don't own the toys, and it's confirmed they don't own the cartoon, either. We're not going to catalog a non-Transformers cartoon Hasbro doesn't own on this wiki, no matter what Vector Prime says. If you want to cover the "idea" of what they own, that can be accomplished by adding to the already-existing "Gobots" article. Hasbro owning part of a sliver of an idea of GoBots doesn't mean we need a "Scratch" or "Sparky" article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:35, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:Agreed. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I'd still like to see all the other stuff done up, but am willing to leave that for another day if it helps get this moving along. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Same. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:50, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::This has been asked about 6 times in the recent past, including after the Gobotron incorporation, and it loses every single time. I think it's insppropriate to seriously discuss going ahead with it after about 2 hours of talk. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:01, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'm not sure what you're defining as the "recent past", but the last time I can find was in [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49|2010]]. We're obviously going to wait for more input before we start pumping out articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:17, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::Here's 2011: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Cy-Kill_(GoBots)
::::::Here's 2012: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I am with Thy. This has been argued to death a billion times over, and nothing has changed. We're not about to start cataloguing stuff that isn't Transformers media on our Transformers wiki. That's the opposite of what this wiki is about, and no amount of Vector Prime answers will make some Hanna-Barbara series into a Transformers one. Folks who want to catalog Go-Bots should make their own wiki, and if they can't drum up the interest to do so, and have to piggy-back on ours in order to get it done, maybe that should tell ya something. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:13, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Full agreement with Thy and Walky. And I'd like to point out that I'm one of the bastards who created the lion's share of TF-branded GoBots material. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:02, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:If we can't document [http://monzo12782.tumblr.com/post/105019142648/and-then-there-was-that-time-the-renegades that time Cy-Kill dressed up as George Washington], what's the point of cataloging any of it at all? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 10:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Well, you just made my day.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:44, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

==October 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''A full-on GoBots Facebook pages prompts multiple proposals, resulting in several votes, ultimately opting to... make no changes to existing policy''

==== GoBots 2015 ====
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

=====Call for Vote=====

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. 
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. 
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Zebediah Braxis|Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

======Vote Results======
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

======Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture======

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. Over my dead body.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's dead body, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

==January 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''The first real change in 6 years. [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] is declared to be technically not Transformers fiction by [[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]], a proposal by [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]].''

==== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ====

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
=====Walky Calls It=====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

=====Epilogue: It's all over but the crying=====
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

=====Questions and self reflection=====
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Starscream (Armada)|Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful. I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case. (Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

===== Reviving the Sister Wiki =====

So, I'm not going to argue about getting Gobots information on here anymore. However, this has made me want to actually go ahead and make that sister wiki. Now, I have no clue how to work with anything more than the most basic softwear, but I'd actively contribute to such a wiki. Is there anyone else who would? And if so, is there anyone who could set up a site? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)
: I'd be happy to contribute/move pages and info over from this wiki to any hypothetical Gobots wiki. That said, I have no software experience either, so I'm in the dark there along with you. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:59, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::Maybe we could ask abates or something like that. If Derik was here, he could probably set something up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:07, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page I have no real interest in GoBots nor any particular technical skill, but this seems like your best bet for setting up a wiki. It's Mediawiki, so it should work pretty much the same as this site (just, you know, without templates. Or a custom skin, unless you can get someone to do that. Or a unique url. Or content.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'd love to help out with this. I think with what I've seen about fights on TFWiki about GoBots, this would be a good solution, and then the pages that actually would exist here could link to there. I don't know much about GoBots or site editing, but I've been enjoying Renegade Rhetoric and would like to learn more about the GoBots. If this occurs, please let me know and I'll learn/teach myself what I need to help. Would this GoBots wiki consist of the AVP and related stuff also? "[[User:SoundJack426|SoundJack426]] ([[User talk:SoundJack426|talk]]) 20:40, 8 January 2016 (EST)"
:::::Yes, which brings me to my next point: One more thing I want to ask about any potential sister Gobots wiki: would we add Rock Lords information there too? Cause they were marketed separately, but they pretty much exclusively showed up in Gobots fiction, aside from the random storybook. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:09, 10 January 2016 (EST)

I've been amazingly busy, but I still want to come back to this. I did make some attempts at cobbling some stuff, quickly realizing I'm still stuck with my understanding of coding at Windows XP Microsoft word and having no understanding of what any of this stuff means. However, I do want to at least try to make this wiki happen. I'd have to wait till summer to make any real big push with this, but in the meantime, if anyone can offer any means or advice, it would be appreciated. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:31, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==February 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''Clarification of existing status of GoBots on the wiki. Crossover GoBots get full write-up, with brief Renegade Rhetoric summaries.''
==== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ====

Is there any objection to my adding External Links to Counter-X's Challenge of the GoBots profile pages to the character pages here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:54, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:I was doing it only in lieu of TFU.info links. TFU seems to be our standard for outside toys links and we typically don't do others unless TFU lacks them for some reason. But I dunno if there's a legit policy about it or not. (that said, Counter X is a great GoBot-centric resource and probably more informative than TFU, just my opinion) --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:58, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::Counter-X has actual cartoon bio pages to link to, not just toy reviews.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:59, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think there's any issue with adding informative links. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:31, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::::Okay, Renegade-related pages linked. I'll tackle the Guardians later. Unless someone else wants to do it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:27, 5 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Guardian-related pages linked. I changed format a time or two, I will go back later and harmonize ALL of them. Unless someone else beats me to it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:52, 22 February 2016 (EST)

OK, just to clarify, what Chris McFeely proposed last month was this: ''"GoBots characters only mentioned in Renegade Rhetoric stories consolidated into simplified 'List of Guardian' and 'List of Renegade' pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles."'' So, it's permissible to write up full articles for characters who appear in the crossover fiction, yes, detailing their adventures in said crossover fiction? Those who only appear in Renegade Rhetoric get consolidated into a list with brief description of their Renegade Rhetoric adventures with links to the RR/src archive. And for the characters who do appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get that brief description with link to archive. I don't want to do work that will get reverted or start an argument, which is why I'm double-checking what Chris proposed and the community agreed.

If my understanding is correct, I'll try to write up the crossover fiction stuff, and then take a stab at consolidating whoever's left. I thought I remembered seeing a sandbox of consolidation, did anyone make any progress on that?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:55, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:Considering that we now list it as "Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric", does that distinction still apply? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:21, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::Let's not bring up old wounds and rehash old arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:43, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::Chris's proposal was based on the idea that Renegade Rhetoric wasn't Transformers fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::Jim has stated before that the "Transformers" part of the title doesn't really mean anything and shouldn't be taken too seriously. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:53, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I guess I can't argue against that. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:57, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::I would, however, argue that the RR appearances of characters who have other TF fiction appearances should be on their pages and not just on the archive. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:01, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::: I don't want to argue about anything. I just want to confirm that I am correctly understanding and interpreting what was decided.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:10, 25 February 2016 (EST)

So... no opinions on this? I'm maybe 90% sure I'm right in my interpretation, but I'd love Chris or Walky to weigh in just to be certain. If no one cares anymore, I'll assume I'm right and get started. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:46, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:Yep, your summary matches what I envisioned. I started [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|this sandbox]] for the Renegades but I've been busy. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:30, 26 February 2016 (EST)
::Great. I'll try to get some progress done this weekend. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:20, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:::I would say, though, that it'd be worth linking to at least one of the TFU/Counter-X profiles from these list pages, given that they provide useful context ''without'' it being the wiki's coverage; in particular, the likes of Jack Attack and Decker Decker, who (on the sandbox as it stands) don't give any indication of which unused Machine Robo toys they're based on, meaning it would be pretty much impossible for casual readers to track them down. I remember that someone proposed using a table instead of headers for the list pages; maybe have a column in the table for Counter-X links? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:40, 26 February 2016 (EST)

==March 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''After the publication of [[Echoes and Fragments]] makes the previous ruling on Renegade Rhetoric moot, the community declares that ALL Facebook GoBots material is off limits on the grounds that we simply don't like it / it causes too many arguments, whether or not it is Transformers fiction.''

====Echoes and Fragments====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Echoes and Fragments]] story page.}}

=====Initial Discussion=====
If ever we were given cause to kill individual GoBots pages, this disgusting masturbatory horseshit is '''''it'''''. If ever there was doubt that these things were being done to end-run and abuse the wiki, it's dead. Jesus fucking Christ. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Finding it hard to argue with you. I mean.. geez. This is a lot of effort put into something for inconsequential stuff... Imagine if people put this much effort into... making a Go-Bots wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:46, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh ''dear''. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::(Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think that's what's going on here. Jim seemed perfectly fine with this stuff not being on the wiki. I really think he just has fun writing GoBots stories and is happy that Hasbro lets him. I guess it's my own OCD that makes me want to write up the GoBots who meet Transformers here, just like we do with Marvel heroes and G.I. Joe characters.
::::::::And as to this "stretching the definition" of a story... does it? Did you read it? I laughed out loud at several parts and found the juxtaposition of GoBots elements with the overly familiar Transformers The Movie story rather clever. Blaster getting swapped for Blaster, Leader-1's corny response to "why throw away your life so recklessly", Fracture and Deadlift as Unicron upgrades for Crasher and Deadlift. It's a good read, and virtually every scene has a traditional Transformer in it. So, to call it not a Transformers story seems unfair. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 04:13, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Forget it, you win. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:16, 1 March 2016 (EST)

I was just ''waiting'' for this story to shit everything up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 04:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Okay, so... as an extended story, I think this warrants its own page, yes. (As Jim pointed out, the original is only slightly shorter than the upcoming Beast Wars: Uprising story.) And it ''is'' heavily Transformers-based, as opposed to being more-or-less pure GoBots fiction like Renegade Rhetoric is. But I think that, really, 70-80% of this article could be replaced with "events followed as in Transformers: The Movie, except with these GoBots replacing these Transformers", because... that's what it is. We don't need full descriptions of anything except the Sideways/Vector/Gong parts. (Also, the sooner we condense the GoBot character pages, the better. All those red links are making me nervous that someone's going to start adding them.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:And that's exactly what I'm advocating. The page SHOULD exist. But really. ''REALLY''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 05:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::No? None of them? I mean, some get a ton of fiction here. Is there any intellectual foundation for this position, or is it basically just "we don't like it." I see plenty of room to condense characters, but certainly this should expand the scope of who gets featured. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:09, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::Don't. Just... don't, dude. This is not something you will get supported on, I assure you. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Sigh.

Giggidy, I like you, I truly do. I appreciate your enthusiasm for AVP and co. But there's a point where you have to step back on some things, and wonder if you're going too far.

Now, as for the article itself, I feel that there's bits that are acceptable and bits that aren't. The notes section is fine, who's replaced with who makes sense. But the summary really needs paring down. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:47, 1 March 2016 (EST)

It seems a bit narcissistic to insist that Jim shouldn't write what he wants to write because of the wiki or that it's the purpose of his work. Nobody's obligated to respect our idiosyncrasies when it comes to particular topics. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)

===== Delete =====
Why is this even an issue? I thought this was all settled two months ago. If the wiki doesn't want to cover GoBots (or any other piece of my writing, or anyone elses' for that matter) the wiki doesn't have to. I'm a big believer in engaging with the bits of the franchise you like, and ignoring the bits you don't. Giggidy, the reason I asked you not to write up this article was because it's evident which way the majority of this particular community leans. Just respect that. I'll write whatever I want, the wiki can cover whatever it wants, and other readers can read or not read whatever they want. It's not rocket science here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:11, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:The issue is that this isn't unambiguously GoBots fiction like the majority of us consider Renegade Rhetoric to be; it's combination GoBots and Transformers fiction, a la Withered Hope. I don't think anyone actually thinks this shouldn't be covered. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:43, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I definitely think this should be covered. The issue of how to handle the Go-Bots elements is something we'll have to deal with somehow. (I ''think'' we said they would all go in a list article or something? Am I understanding that correctly?) If there was a Go-Bots wiki, I'd say we should link to that, but... -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 1 March 2016 (EST)

======A different proposal======
Since this story was presented by Vector Prime in universe as a document written by his student, Blueshift, what if we were to likewise treat this story as such? Instead of this article covering the events of a fictional story written by a real world author (Jim Sorenson), it would cover the contents of a fictional document written by a fictional author (Blueshift), thereby treating the actual story within the document as a meta-fictional story-within-a-story that we needn't cover in the same manner as real-world fiction, but still having it covered on here in some fashion. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm against it. There's no point being cheeky about it and trying to find loopholes so we can get to say "it doesn't count." The Go-Bots can still get one list-page. There's no reason list-pages can't be just as informative, interesting, and in-depth as anything else. And there's no reason why the existence of this specific fiction should change our approach to the Go-Bots being documented. It's not about whether the story is good or bad. I enjoy Sorenson's writing frequently. It's about the fact that we approach different franchises outside of TF on a pretty case-by-case basis, and I think the (mostly) list article is the fairest approach for Go-Bots. G.I. Joe has special "rules" that let us include a little bit more than we would for say, Star Wars. I know my reaction was based on the presumption of what it meant about other Go-Bots articles. I'm sure that's the case for other people. Everything should be documented in full, as it should be, but you shouldn't wind up on a Go-Bots page every third click of the "Random Page" button with the current proposal. Article stands. List of Go-Bot stands. That's what I think. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::''Fine''. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Giggidy, please, let it go. "We don't like GoBots" is a PERFECTLY VALID and legitimate reason not to want to write about it. They don't NEED a better reason, so stop asking for one.
:::::::And, wiki folks, not for nothin', but I strongly recommend just adopting the stance that all GoBots are verboten and not try to contort yourself through intellectual hoops to justify their exclusion. I've had GoBots in my work since 2010 (though you can be forgiven for not realizing that <nowiki>[[Zero (Animated)]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[Zero (GoBots)]]</nowiki> aren't the same dude, since I hadn't introduce the concept of the diaspora yet) and I'm not likely to stop any time in the near future. I'll be happier if every time you see a Monster GoBot in Uprising or there's some new GoBot face in Axiom Nexus it doesn't kick off a big argument, and in the long run you'll be happier too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:27, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think we ''want'' that, though. The solution of "all GoBots compacted onto a few pages for GoBots fiction from the Facebook pages" is a reasonably elegant one, I think, that lets us remain a comprehensive source of Transformers information without being flooded with individual GoBot stubs (due to the fact that a good deal of the Facebook content is as much GoBots as it is Transformers, and the wiki does not consider the former to be a subset of the latter). Scrubbing all GoBots content off entirely would be a bad idea; we shouldn't not cover the likes of Zero, Vamp and Creepy just because they originated in GoBots. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:28, 2 March 2016 (EST) (And I never want to say anything with that density of the word "GoBots in again".)
:::::::::If we were a Beatles compendium, we couldn't get away with "Let's not include Yoko Ono at all because we don't like her involvement in the band." (and no, I'm not comparing anyone to Yoko Ono.) For better or worse, Go-Bots is part of Transformers fiction now, and simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 11:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::::Ding ding ding. Stop letting petty wiki grudges dictate our content. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:47, 2 March 2016 (EST)

::::::::::Ascendron's right. While filling the site with GoBots stubs is undesirable, to ignore them entirely would be to ignore a fairly large chunk of recent Transformers fiction. I think the list article is probably the best solution, and it's one we had already agreed upon, if I remember correctly. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 11:58, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page. That will be then, this is now. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 12:18, 2 March 2016 (EST)

Can't we just get past this bullshit already? Some people on the wiki don't like covering GoBots, but nobody is obligated to respect the supposed "consensus" of some website and we will just have to deal. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:01, 2 March 2016 (EST)

=====Individual Write-Ups=====
OK, we're definitely not deleting, which I agree with. But that brings us to this:
:"simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website."
How is that not what we're doing by not writing up the characters who appear prominently in this story? Keeping in mind that the previous proposal specifically does not cover this story or anything like it. The intellectual foundation for excluding [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]] is that "it's not Transformers fiction." Leaving aside the sheer absurdity of declaring that licensed fiction about transforming robots published under [[:File:RenegadeRhetoricLogo.jpg|this logo]] with [[:File:RR Title - Opportunity Knocks Part 2.jpg|these]] [[:File:RR Title - Babysitting.jpg|title]] [[:File:RR Title - All Tomorrow's Utopias.jpg|cards]] is somehow "not Transformers fiction", we all, even M Sipher and Walky, agree that '''Echoes and Fragments''' is Transformers fiction. So none of the logic or reasoning for keeping them to one big list applies. The only person who seems to be advocating for "if you don't like it don't cover it" is Jim Sorenson himself, so I again ask, is there any intellectual foundation or argument to not cover characters appearing in this story other than "we don't like them"?

Ascendron, statements like this "Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page." make me think that you're making some kind of notability argument. I went ahead and added Echoes fiction to the existing [[Major Mo]] page, as well as condensing the existing RR fiction and adding the very brief high-level summary of the RR fiction that hadn't yet been documented. I kept the Echoes to an extremely high level, like we're to do with RR fiction. Even with all of his appearances limited to just the bullet points, it's a real and substantial article. It would be much longer if we actually documented his appearances the way we do everything else. Is his article really less substantial than the likes of [[Harcourt]] or [[Marty Cooper]] or [[Roxy Sparkles]] or [[Brawley (ROTF)]] or [[Deep Earth Scout]]?

I get that some people don't like GoBots. I get that people are sick of arguing about it. But at some point, isn't it easier and simpler to just stop putting our fingers in our ears and shouting at the top of our lungs "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NO GOBOTS HERE" and just treat them exactly like we'd treat any other piece of licensed fiction, and stop making special rules and exclusions for them? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:57, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Because GoBots is a special case, and one of the biggest cases of bad-faith manipulation of the Timelines Facebook pages, and it ''feels wrong'' to give characters full pages because they didn't show up in this given that we're not doing so for Renegade Rhetoric characters. It may not be entirely consistent, but it's also what the opinion of pretty much everyone except you, Giggidy, seems to be. So, if you can convince people to support you, great, but until you can show evidence of consensus we are likely to stick with counting the GoBots characters from this story as a Renegade Rhetoric appearance. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:31, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Is it? You and Chris have chimed in, and that's it. If two people on a random talk page is enough to not cover characters fully, why don't I go over to Kiss Players and start a talk page there and see if I can get two or three people to agree to de-wiki all that stuff?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::And Sipher, and Ascendron has indicated that he'd rather have all GoBots links have to go to Wikipedia than to let this "mess up" the wiki. And, you know, it doesn't even ''matter'' until the list pages are live, so I'm not going to say any more on this subject until it becomes ''actual'' furniture-shuffling, as opposed to just hypothetical. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:02, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::Rather telling that so many folks vote for a "solution" and then make zero effort to implement it. Meanwhile I'd be done updating it by now if people weren't so busy advocating for special exceptions be made and extended rather than just treating this fiction the same way we do everything else, including the German bits that make no sense and the Japanenergy tentacle porn.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:19, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::I get that the consensus is that GoBots fiction from before Hasbro bought Tonka is considered out of bounds here (I don't AGREE with it, but I see no point in continuing that fight). What I DON'T understand is how, given that we've been told that GoBots are their universe's equivalents of Transformers, there is any justification for leaving out any new GB fiction. GBs are TFs now, so new GB fiction IS new TF fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::I agree, but there's nothing we can do about it at this point. There's a reason the dissenters have stopped replying; they've won, and they know arguing about it futhermore is pointless. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Well, not really. If it's a vote about handling Echoes characters, there is at least as much support for treating them the way we normally do is making a special exception, so it's probably safe to go ahead and do so. On the otber hand, if you're talking about revisiting the Renegade Rhetoric decision, I agree with you that that would be a pointless discussion. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:47, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::And I don't think the "consensus" will change. It's still "eviiiiil maniac Jim out to destroy our poor wiki with GoBots", regardless of the specific label it's under. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:05, 3 March 2016 (EST)

I just wish someone beyond the people who wanted to keep it and those who only wanted it separated because of all the arguing would do something with this list idea, cause I sure as hell don't see anyone arguing against their inclusion since the beginning helping with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:50, 3 March 2016 (EST)

So, at least 4 of us in favor of treating this like any other piece of TF fiction and not saying that it's not Transformers fiction as Renegade Rhetoric is. (Me, Saix, Khajidha, Ascendron per his talk page.) We know Chris disagrees, and Riptide because it ''feels wrong''. Anyone else want to chime in? And is "feels wrong" a precedent we want to set as a reason to exclude content? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:15, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:All I really have to say is that ''if'' we treated it like any other piece of Transformers fiction, we'd have to give everyone who appears in it a page, as per wiki rules. It's kind of arbitrary to say "Major Mo and Alice and Bob appear in this more than anyone else does, so they should get pages but nobody else should". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:36, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::But I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that characters with a substantial role get a page. It's "kind of arbitrary" to treat this differently than any other piece of crossover fiction too, but I don't see that stopping you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:02, 4 March 2016 (EST)

::There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages and I personally don't mind, but the whole argument on GoBots keeps causing ill-feeling and conflict around here so I'm voting against. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 11:33, 4 March 2016 (GMT)

The previous mandate handed down was about GoBots in general. No one could read it and assume it was specifically about ''Renegade Rhetoric'' and not about other Gobots-material creeping in, particularly not other Gobots-material from the same source in a slightly different format. '''''NO''''', there should '''''NOT''''' be individual pages for GoBot characters who appeared in Echoes and Fragments.

And Giggidy, by leading the charge on this, you've really shown that you learned ''nothing'' from the last AVP fiasco about how to usefully contribute to the Wiki. This is...the worst thing you could have done. Honestly. The worst. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 07:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|previous mandate]] specifically stated "since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become GoBots fiction, not Transformers fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from Challenge of the GoBots "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki" I don't see how anyone could read that as anything other than what it says. It says Renegade Rehetoric has become GoBots fiction which we don't cover. Echoes and Fragments everyone agrees is Transformers fiction. Ergo it has nothing to do with Chris' proposal. Note Charles above, "There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages," or even Ripclaw on [http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-162 Allspark:] "I... can't really come up with a cohesive argument against it, so...". I [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of|even asked Chris]], who authored the proposal, if my understanding was correct, and he said it was. I cannot understand what possible reasoning there is beyond "we don't like it" which was explicitly rejected above, and apparently neither can anyone else. We're literally taking a story everyone agrees is Transformers fiction and not covering the main character, who is also on the cover, because some OTHER DIFFERENT GoBots story is "not Transformers" despite being branded as such. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

Upthread, Jim says he's been writing GoBots into his stories since 2010. The article says this story was published in 2008. The article was created 3 days ago. Something doesn't add up. I've watched with great appreciation as McFeely continues to develop his master list of GoBot pages. Once those go live, 90+% of the current GoBot stand-alone pages will get the immediate, permanent, and incontestable deletion they deserve, and there will be no more shadows of loopholes that might confuse new readers about our policies.

And honestly, if people keep pushing the envelope I suspect it would really fucking backfire. We were sick of this shit already YEARS ago. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:10, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The article says the story was published in 2016. I think Jim is probably referring to [[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:09, 4 March 2016 (EST)

=====I capitulate=====
Fine. Even though there is zero intellectual coherence behind the position of not covering the characters in this story, I'll stop arguing because again I'm inexplicably in the minority. All I was suggesting was that we handle this story exactly like we handle every other crossover story. I didn't agree with the ruling on Renegade Rhetoric not being Transformers fiction, but I respected that there was a solid foundation for it. This decision has no foundation aside from "we don't like it" which is a terrible reason not to cover the licensed branded fiction. And since Sorenson has stated that there's more GoBots fiction coming in the future, I look forward to the NEXT argument when people try to stretch the fig-leaf of "we don't like it" to cover more and more. Because you know it's coming. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

==== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ====

[[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|The existing rule was:]] "I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles"

That caused a lot of argument over [[Echoes and Fragments]], since most people did not want to create new pages for each named character even though 'legally' it's fine. This is going to come up again when new GoBots appears in a Transformers fanfic (and Macrocosmic Seekers is all about that).

At this point, might be worth altering the law to "who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories with a moderate-to-large role in Transformers fanfiction" i.e. [[Major Mo]] is fine because he had a big role in Echoes but Back Grounder the Rock Lord who was only mentioned briefly in a crowd scene is not. That seems to be the spirit of the law. - [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 17:27, 4 March 2016 (GMT)
:I vote no. "GoBots characters and concepts who have not appeared outside of Facebook-based media do not get their own pages" is a reasonable policy without loopholes. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:52, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::That's the crux of this all, so if it gets people to shut up about this forever, please, for the love of God. Stuff that has appeared or been mentioned in other media will still get appropriate pages—nobody has ever argued against that. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:18, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::Agree with Riptide. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::::I think this is a terrible, terrible rule and an awful precedent, but it is at least honest and non-subjective. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:23, 4 March 2016 (EST)

So, that's the concensus. The rule is "GoBots and major associated characters who appear only on Facebook pages get the list treatment." The justification is that GoBots is a frequent source of arguments and the hope is a simple, unambiguous rule will curtail these arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:07, 5 March 2016 (EST)

I would like some clarification: once the master lists go up and many GoBot articles are deleted/redirected, what about the Renegade Rhetoric fiction sections on the pages which stay, e.g. [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]] or [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]]? It is my understanding that we are minimizing ''Challenge of the GoBots'' season 1 content to summaries, but what of "season 2" adventures? Can any of it go on the wiki? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 02:17, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:As I've been reading it, RR has been de-credentialed and will be purged, completely. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:01, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::I wasn't sure either, so I asked Chris up above in the ''Question about GoBots'' block, and he confirmed my understanding, which is this: '''For the characters who appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get a brief write-up with link to RR archive.''' So, Renegade Rhetoric adventures do count, but get written up in a truncated way. I've been meaning to get to everyone, but have been busy with school. When [[Puzzler]] got mentioned in [[High Noon]] I did a pass on him, which shows about the level I think was authorized for Renegade Rhetoric write-ups. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:40, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
Does ''Echoes and Fragments'' count as a piece of crossover fiction? Because that gives... like... ''every'' GoBot a sentence or two of "screen-time", which might throw a wrench in the plan. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:10, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:We've decided that the Facebook fiction in general does not "count" enough to give GoBots characters their own pages, unless they have appeared in non-Facebook-based fiction. We probably should give Puzzler his own page, but ehh. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:34, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::It's a strange place we find ourselves in. The original justification of not wikifying Renegade Rhetoric was that it's somehow technically not Transformers fiction. That went out the window with '''[[Echoes and Fragments]]''', so Chris [[User talk:Chris McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|basically said]] that the goal was to keep GoBots footprint to a minimum regardless of their appearances in unambiguously Transformers fiction. The new rule is that Facebook appearances don't count towards whether or not a character gets a page, because we don't like GoBots/they cause too many arguments. But if/when they show up elsewhere the Facebook stuff gets written up. So, I expect many more pages like Puzzler, where there's a one-sentence mention from some other fiction and then four or five paragraphs of Facebook stuff. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 12:50, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:See prior discussion on [[Talk:Echoes and Fragments]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

==TL;DR==
''[[GoBots]] (and related characters/ideas) who appear in non-Facebook Transformers crossovers get full write-ups, because that's how we handle all crossovers. GoBots who appear exclusively in FunPub Facebook pages (i.e. [[Ask Vector Prime]]), get no write-ups, because we don't like GoBots on the wiki / they cause too many arguments. GoBots who appear in both get full crossover write-ups, but only limited [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] write-ups because we consider Renegade Rhetoric to be non-Transformers fiction.''

== The current state of Shoutwiki and the IDW comic's impact on this discussion WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE IDW COMIC ==

So, with the Go-Bots comic and the current state of both of our sister wikis, I think it's time to re-examine our options. Now before this gets out of hand, I just want to clarify: I am NOT advocating for both of them to be folded into TFWiki.net at the time being. What I want is to look at what we have now and see how we can improve. Also spoilers for the Tom Scioli series.

So, first off, with the ShoutWiki bit:

For nearly a year, both of the wiki's have had very little activity. IDW Hasbro has had slightly more activity, but much of that has petered off recently, at least. Part of that, I have always felt, is due to a lack of good advertisement on TFWiki. It took, give or take, over half of a year for the GoBots and IDW Hasbro Wiki to receive any acknowledgement on our main page that wasn't the consistently changing "disambiguration" bit, and even then they're not particularly noticeable. Now, we could say this is due to a lack of interest, which for GoBots, I could have seen prior to the IDW comic, but I don't think that makes sense for the IDW Hasbro wiki. Additional issues include:

1. The mass amount of spambots and non-user editors. We have no control over ShoutWiki like we do with TFWiki. As such, spambots are still quite rampant in comparison, and IP address-based users are still active. This is undesirable for many reasons.

2. The problem of Wikia/Fandom. As we know, Gamepedia was recently bought out by Wikia/Fandom. Now, I won't pretend I have any idea how that works, but knowing how awful Fandom is today, I would worry about any possibility that ShoutWiki would suffer the same fate. And as we've seen with Mirage's posts on the Allspark Forums thread for the GoBots wiki, Fandom's current management is beyond screwed up.

On the comics front themselves (SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE COMIC FROM HERE ON OUT):

1. The comic connects them to the Transformers. As seen in the end of issues, the GoBots are depicted as the creators of the Transformers, connecting them once more. Now, when even the comic produced by Hasbro's main go-to comic company, written by someone not too heavily involved in the fandom, connects them to the Transformers, it's worth re-examining.

2. The comic's legal info. Now, a big part of the position against putting them on the Wiki is that it seemed that Hasbro was unwilling to use the GoBots beyond slight homages. Possible reasons for this include the idea that Hasbro only owns the names, and that other parts are still owned by Bandai and Warner Bros. Now, the indicia for the Go-Bots comic only has Hasbro listed in the legal bit. The comic uses characters from the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, and everyone is drawn faithfully to the Bandai toys. It would seem that Hasbro is much more confident on their ownership of the characters than they were 2-3 years ago.

Now, to examine our options:

1. We fold these wikis into ours. Again, I am NOT advocating for this. That being said, gained advantages include: better prevention of spambots; being on this wiki, my hypothesis is that there would be a lot more attraction to create these articles than there are now for the two out of the way ones; and we wouldn't have someone selling off out wiki to a ponzi scheme disguised as a "community".

2. We create new wikis we own ourselves. Personally, I'm all for that, but there are several problems. A lot of the people involved with the set up of this wiki aren't really around anymore or are inactive. There aren't very many beyond abates that I can think of who have good backgrounds in the more technical side of stuff, but I could be forgetting some. Additionally, there would be more money to pay to have 3 sites up, and I understand that is a lot to ask for. Additionally, without better advertising, we'd run into the same problem we haven now. There might be other stuff but again, I'm no tech wizard.

3. We get better advertising for our two Shoutwiki and hope for the best. Probably the easiest of the three options, and the least costly/headache inducing. The only problem is still the spambots and the chance that Wikia will buy ShoutWiki out.

In any case, I wanted to bring this stuff up after talking with several friends about the states of our 2 sister wikis; this is not me trying to reopen old wounds. I hope that is clear. If I am unclear about anything I am willing to clarify-been busy with final exams for school which is why I'm only now getting to this after having wanted to bring it up for a while, and it's hard to focus during this crunch. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

== Is the sister Wiki still a thing? ==

Just spend a day or two editing the Gobot wiki before I stumbled on this discussion... is the sister wiki still an ongoing concern or has it been abandoned by the admins? Part of me wants to do much, much more as the Gobots side of the thing really needs some work but I don't want to waste time on it (well, beyond that any wiki editing is a waste of time) if it's wound down.

[[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 09:49, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:We still link to it on our main page here. It's just that there simply hasn't much interest in it as of late. Most of the activity was brought on in response to Fun Pub's Renegade Rhetoric generating a renewed interest in GoBots, but which has since died down. There was the IDW GoBots mini-series that sparked a new interest, but that's wound down since too. GoBots just doesn't have the fire and staying power to keep most people's interest in it perpetually ongoing, but that doesn't mean we've abandoned GBWiki. If you're interested in working on it, then by all means have at it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:43, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:It's worth remembering that the people currently running TFWiki didn't create it--they found a dilapidated Transformers wiki in the wild, and nursed it to health, until it became the powerhouse it is today. Even if the people currently there have lost interest, there's always a chance that your work could give it the second wind it needs to become a vital resource. --[[User:Wack'd|Wack'd]] ([[User talk:Wack'd|talk]]) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
::As long as it's not going to somehow expire in a puff of 404s in a week's time (I have no idea how hosting of Wikias works) I'm more than happy chugging away, just didn't want to bother if I'd missed something. TVM guys [[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 12:42, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

==Revisiting our organizational schema==
Over the last six years or so, we have had a steady influx of what I am going to call "outside" content that is only tangentially relevant to the ''Transformers'' franchise as a whole—''MASK'', ''Micronauts'', ''Visionaries'', ''Star Trek'', ''Ghostbusters'', ''Terminator'', ''Back to the Future'', and two ''My Little Pony'' crossovers with a possible third volume on the way. It is clear that Hasbro and its licensees are open to the idea of multiple franchises and outside properties coexisting with the Transformers, and our wiki policy up to this point has generally been amenable to the idea of treating these characters the way we would any other character: an individual wiki article that documents their characterization and their role in any given story, regardless of how major or minor that role is. (See also: [[Slywire]], [[Arex (Star Trek)|Arex]], [[Killerwatt]], [[Doctor Hooves]], etc.)

There is one exception to the way that we treat these crossover characters: due to the controversies surrounding the "Renegade Rhetoric" era, we currently do not give the majority of [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]]s and [[Renegade]]s their own individual pages, and have currently amalgamated the vast majority of these redirects onto a single table.

It is true that our current organizational schema regarding the GoBots was born out of a sense of frustration regarding the ongoing "wiki-gaming" situation at the time regarding Renegade Rhetoric and Ask Vector Prime. However, with every new IDW crossover or Collaborative toy--and ''especially'' given the recent [[Go-Bots (comic)|Go-Bots]] comic, which was not a strict crossover, but very strongly implied a connection between the GoBots and the Cybertronian race--the way that we handle GoBot coverage on the wiki feels increasingly unhelpful and antiquated. Now that we've had five years of constant crossovers and also time to look back on our decisions with a cooler head, I am proposing that we shift back to our pre-"Renegade Rhetoric"-era method of covering these characters by giving them their own individual pages and treating them the way we would any other faction.

I am open to discussion as to whether or not we should include "Renegade Rhetoric" writeups, or even possibly a fiction writeup regarding their activities in the Scioli series--though I will remind users that we do have the GBwiki established already as a way to absorb out-of-universe . However, I feel that "Echoes and Fragments" should absolutely be covered on their respective pages, the way we'd cover any IDW crossover. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:06, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Yes. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm ambivalent as, like you said, the fact these characters are mentioned on the wiki at all ''is'' because of that aforementioned wiki-gaming, and I'm not convinced the pages would be worth much. I wouldn't fight it, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:25, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Our system is just fine as-is and I see no reason to change it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::What, if anything, distinguishes GoBots that makes the Guardians and Renegades unavailble for articles, but the near 100 ponies eligible? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:43, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::There wasn't a decade of people ignoring and gaslighting our judgments, cheating the wiki's criteria, and personally insulting anyone who tried to stop them over My Little Pony. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:50, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::All of that is addressed in the post. The way it is now, we are actively limiting information due to fights from half a decade ago. If and/or when there is an IDW comic crossing over the two, we'll have to drop the facade, one that's already being called into question. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::So let's wait for the crossover and change our system "if and/or when" it ever happens. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Would "Gobots pages that would have more than just a single Renegade Rhetoric section can exist, while those that wouldn't stay in list hell until such time as they would" be an acceptable compromise here? That would pages that exist that have good reason to, without reinstating wiki-gaming from five years ago. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:34, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:(There's probably a case to be made for Echoes and Fragments being an exception, since it's essentially a full-on prose story rather than just "someone asked cy-kill if knew bob the go-bot and he said yes", but i'm not gonna argue that one too heavily) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

TFWiki's current policy towards GoBots reflects the franchise's status in 2004 - 2007, when it was seen as an external brand like My Little Pony or Starriors. Gobots were a separate species from a parallel universe with a different, partially organic physiology. But beginning in 2010 we saw the first hints of change as the Allspark Almanac 2 revealed that in some Alternate Universes, Gobots characters simply ''were'' Transformers. By 2015-2016 official publications revealed that they were just a highly divergent version of the Transformer species and started presenting new stories featuring them, generated by Hasbro and representing the brand in this new shared context.

Things '''changed.''' I'm not saying that we necessarily have to alter our policy, but we do have to acknowledge that the status of GoBots relative to Transformers has changed. If we do choose to integrate it any further into the wiki it will ''not'' be because the people demanding it all those years ago were "right," because the brand ''as it existed at that time'' did not warrant inclusion.

I have wrestled with this one and come down on either side but, for me, this is the critical factor:
'''The Evil One''' from GoBots is '''the Fallen'''. Same dude. Multiversal singularity. They are Transformers, full stop. They merit inclusion.

(I'm also going to be a jerk and say the events of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' should ''not'' be covered by the wiki, just because I'm a difficult asshole. All of the important stuff from the cartoon was represented in Renegade Rhetoric anyway.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:16, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm of the opinion that, bare minimum, the Scioli series should be covered here in full. The final issue makes it clear that the series *is* a Transformers story, and as fiction that was designed to tie in with Transformers from the start, it should be integrated by the same logic as post-Revolution Hasbroverse (which, I remind you, was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Reintegration of Hasbroverse wiki content|unanimously agreed upon like a week ago]]). -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::Doing ''that'' would require pages for all of the characters. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:30, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::And...? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:33, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::I'm just clarifying -- if we choose to cover the IDW Go-Bots miniseries which includes non-trivial Transformers elements... then we have to make pages for all the Go-Bots characters. It's all or nothing, you can't just tiptoe in and do 'a little Go-Bots' because the test case literally REQUIRES you to go whole-hog.
::::I think that's the right thing to do FWIW. They're Transformers and all modern stories treat them as Transformers. There was a time when keeping them separate or consigning their appearances to trivia was appropriate, but that simply is not the case anymore. They need proper pages. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 00:34, 2 August 2021 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots

2021-08-02T03:30:25Z

Derik: /* Revisiting our organizational schema */

= GoBots on this wiki=
''All the key discussions over the years about GoBots, and their place on the wiki.''

==2009==
===Executive Summary===
''A huge discussion about how much GoBots is appropriate, and why. After 4 months of discussion, a compromise that everyone can agree on, starting a GoBots sister wiki on the same server with the same code, is reached.''

====Canon====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Gobots]] franchise page.}}

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Initial kick-off====
{{note|This conversation, and all others unless explicitly noted, originally took place on [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]].}}
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Depth of coverage?====
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Some initial chime-ins====

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?====

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion=====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights =====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narly|Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]
::::Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example=====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Canon or not-canon=====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvelverse side-discussion redux=====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
:Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, the robot (Cyril?) who answered the letters page in the Marvel UK SW comics showed up in Robo-Capers --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:27, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:::There ARE multiple singularities in the MMverse. Stuff like the Living Tribunal, Otherworld, etc. They're just above it all/extradimensional locations/non-hostile. Galactus and even (most of?) the abstracts '''aren't''' (and the abstracts don't actually interact anyway, they use intrauniveral things called m-bodies to act for them). [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 22:34, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Multiverse side-discussion=====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
::::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Why do we care about what Heinlein says, again? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.====

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
=====Jim and Jeysie engage in a truly pointless argument (sorry, everyone)=====
:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Re: Point one: There's still a large number of Generation 1 characters who need their Sunbow cartoon fiction sections written up. And there's also missing Animated and Movie-related info out there. And that's just for starters. There's far more than just the esoteric stuff that needs writing up.
::::::::Re: Point two: If we're going to write up GoBots merely because it's a part of the TF universe, then we'd at least need to do the same for GI Joe, Marvel, and Star Wars as well. If anything, Marvel and Star Wars would have priority because they actually factor heavily into officially-branded Transformers merchandise. I find the argument about which franchise will have more official TF fiction than another completely irrelevant as we don't care (in terms of editing) what a franchise does or doesn't do outside of how it's interacted with Transformers.
::::::::Nor is what it will or won't do relevant either, as GI Joe at least already has a large chunk of existing fiction that would make it important enough to worry about regardless of whether it ever gets more TF-oriented fiction.
::::::::I'm not biased against GoBots or anything, I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. We simply don't need to in order to be successful at our "mission" of providing info on all things TF. Maybe if Hasbro ever has a brain fit and decides to stop making new TF stuff, and we finish writing up all of the existing stuff, we might need to expand our scope to stay viable, but that point isn't any time soon that I'm aware of. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Look, I don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but no. You are just flat-out wrong about that. We are not obligated to do anything. We can make exceptions. We can make judgment calls. We could, if we were so inclined, decide that the G.I. Joe Sunbow cartoon belongs in the wiki but the G.I. Joe comic doesn't. We could decide that ALL of G.I. Joe belongs in the wiki but M.A.S.K. (which has been subsumed into G.I. Joe) doesn't. We're not automatons.
:::::::::And that's ASIDE from all the specific arguments I've made above about why GoBots are different. And I've got some new ones, which are hardly relevant given that I'm throwing my weight behind the compromise solution, but ... Withered Hope was NOT a cross-over story. It was a Transformers-branded story, not a co-branded one. That makes a difference, or we could deign it to. You've got a good six solidly Transformers characters, with toys and everything, showing up in a Transformers non-crossover story. And yet, that story is a sequel to, and set in the universe of, the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon. In effect, that pulls in the entirety of the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon in a way that a co-branded story might not.
:::::::::And finally, you state that "I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff." Well, GoBots is clearly 'DIRECTLY related to officially-branded Transformers stuff'. If 'related' is you criteria, then we've already met it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's less a matter of obligation and more that all of your arguments to include GoBot material here exactly apply to GI Joe, etc. as well. (Sorry, but IMHO none of your arguments make GoBots remotely different in ways that are at all relevant.) Ergo, if we decided to suddenly catalog non-TF GoBots stuff here, it would be completely and utterly arbitrary to not include all non-TF GI Joe, etc. stuff as well. And I think it's really pointless to actually include lots of non-TF stuff like that when it is completely unnecessary to understand the TF stuff that is our main focus (since we already cover non-TF concepts to what is enough to understand their place within TF fiction), and we're not lacking for material to add yet.
::::::::::And, no, GoBot is ''not'' directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. The GoBot cartoon is, AFAIK, not officially-branded Transformers fiction. Only some of the GoBot characters are officially branded TF toys. Only some of the GoBot characters and concepts show up in Transformers-branded fiction. And... again, we already cover those toys and concepts that ''do'' show up in a sufficient enough manner to understand their place within Transformers-branded fiction and merchandise.
::::::::::Basically, if the remaining GoBots fiction and toys ever become officially branded as being Transformers, then IMHO it'll therefore be appropriate to include.
::::::::::Otherwise, I really think that the separate sister wiki idea is the way to go for a lot of reasons. It benefits GoBot fans in that they can catalog ''everything'' GoBots, not just what is "Hasbro-OK", and it benefits us in not taking our focus away from Transformers. There's really no downside there. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:38, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::You do realize what the word 'related' means, right? Are you arguing that something needs to be related to officially branded Transformers fiction, or that it needs to be itself branded as part of the Transformers fiction. Those are two different positions. You're stating one position and then, as far as I can tell, arguing for another one. It's making your whole position schizophrenic and hard to decipher.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'm stating I feel that it has to actually be a part of Transformers fiction or toys, or directly relevant and ''related'' to it like our out-of-universe articles on concepts regards the fandom and various aspects of creating and purchasing Transformers toys. Sorry if I fail to see what's so utterly difficult to comprehend about that. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:01, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::So, you'd be in favor of removing Megatron's appearance in G.I. Joe #138, because that wasn't branded Transformers?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:04, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Er... last I knew, GI Joe #138 was officially considered a part of the Transformers-branded Generation 2 comic series, so I fail to see how that's relevant.
::::::::::::::But in any case, my point is not at all hard to comprehend unless you're deliberately trying to be contrary. In which case, go talk to someone who hasn't had their patience for such things leeched out by the fandom already. I'm tired of being piled on that way because people can't just read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth or playing dumb. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::[[Image:Marvel GIJoe-138.jpg|thumb|right|150px| I don't see a Transformers logo on this cover]]I'm not playing dumb. I'm looking at your position - that only fiction that is 'officially branded Transformers fiction' and trying to poke holes in it. It's a totally legitimate strategy. So, looking at this picture, and actually reading the entire book, you won't find any Transformers logos or copyright notices. So, I assume you're going to champion its removal from this wiki, right? Or that you're going to modify your position.
:::::::::::::::And, as an aside, if you're tired of people who 'can't just read what [you] wrote', maybe the problem is you and not all the people out there who can't seem to exactly puzzle out the positions you so passionately argue for.
:::::::::::::::(The REALLY sad thing is, this argument is TOTALLY MOOT, since we both voted the SAME WAY on the compromise position.) Exasperatedly yours, [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:26, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We label it as "G.I. Joe Starring Snake-Eyes, ''Featuring Transformers: Generation 2 #138''". It follows directly from a Transformers story. That set of GI Joe comics, according to our articles, then leads directly into the Generation 2 comic. It seems from our write-up to thus be a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline. If that's ''not'' the case, then I ''would'' argue it doesn't have a place here.
:::::::::::::::Whereas the GoBots cartoon and the non-TF toys have zip to do with any TF-branded fiction or toys AFAIK. They're not considered a direct part of any TF storyline I know of. I don't have to watch or own any part of it to understand any TF story I know of. It's at best tangentially-related, and quite frankly there's a lot of stuff that's tangentially related to TF if we're going to go down that road, since that brings us right back to GI Joe, Star Wars, Marvel, etc.
:::::::::::::::And, no, I'm pretty sure the problem is people who can't simply read what I wrote and take it at face value. I fail to see what's so difficult about "If it's not a part of or directly related to official Transformers-branded toys or fiction, IMHO it's not our purview." I mean, it's one sentence, it ''looks'' like English, it seems straightforward. If you want to add your own things into it that I didn't say, then you've only got yourself to blame if you're confused, not me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Addendum: But yeah, I realize it's moot. Just... hurgh. Tired of almost every attempt to have a debate on something in this fandom being an exercise in frustration. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::::::::: We label it that, but it's not called that. Just LOOK at the cover! It follow three other G.I. Joes issues telling the same story and cameos a Transformer who had appeared in other Transformers stories, though in a different body. But it's not ITSELF a Transformers branded story. So, are you now changing your criteria so that non-transformers branded stories are sometimes ok for inclusion under some circumstances? Because that's NOT what you wrote earlier.
:::::::::::::::: (I'm not trying to insinuate anything ... it was YOU who brought up the idea that you've had many other people before have similar problems with your positions. Maybe the whole world IS crazy and you're the only sane one ... it's possible, I guess.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:13, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::My criterion still stands as "a part of ''or directly related to'' official Transformers-branded toys or fiction". I, at least, would classify being a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline (if it ''is'' in fact such-I have only our write-up to go by) as fitting that criterion. In that, you have to know/read it in order to not be missing part of a Transformers storyline.
:::::::::::::::::(And, well, I've had ''TF fans'' have similar problems. Very seldom had the same problems in other fandoms.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::So, in your view, a non-branded story that leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline meets your criteria of 'directly related.' Well, boom, we're done. Challenge of the GoBots leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline, Withered Hope. So, I'm glad that you've come around to my way of thinking. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:30, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::No, in my view, one of two things:
::::::::::::::::::::The GoBots cartoon is in no way a ''direct'' part of the plot of Withered Hope any more than the storyline of the universe Jackpot and Hubcap came from is a direct part of the plot of Gone Too Far, or all of Bulletbike's previous exploits are a direct part of I, Lowtech, or what have you. In contrast, it seems like the GI Joe and Generation 2 comics are actually all one single storyline all directly related. If you don't read the GI Joe comics, you're actually missing part of the plot of the storyline.
::::::::::::::::::::It's kind of like, say, imagine that All Hail Megatron had its first six issues branded as a non-TF story, and the last six branded as Transformers fiction. Even though it ended up branded as two different things, it's all directly related as one storyline. In contrast, while any story with Spiderman or another Marvel character in it obviously thus has that Marvel universe as part its background somehow, only that specific character and the aspects of him that furthered the story are relevant to our view of the fiction, not the entire extra universe he's a part of.
::::::::::::::::::::Or alternatively, if we did argue that anything that leads into a TF storyline even just as background is fair game, that still, again, applies to far more franchises than just GoBots, so there's still nothing special about that franchise that warrants singling out. Sorry, but your attempt at twisting my meaning around still isn't working. So, why not just go ahead and accept what I said at face value and call it a day? It'd certainly make ''my'' day happier. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::Have you actually read Withered Hope or the G.I. Joe story in question, or even watched CotG? CotG has a LOT more to do with Withered Hope than G.I. Joe #138 has to do with the rest of the story that follows. Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story. Meanwhile, Withered Hope made reference to, and relied on, GoBots characters and technologies extensively. The Astro-Beam, the Dimensional Interfacer, specific character traits and backgrounds. I'm not trying to twist your meaning, I'm trying to parse it. There's a difference. I'm willing to accept that you don't like GoBots as a part of this wiki. I'm just not willing to accept that you have a logical, consistent reason for it that doesn't exclude other parts of the fiction. Then again, if you're not actually familiar with the fiction in question (and you've admitted that you haven't even read the G.I. Joe unbranded story), then that might explain a few things. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::Actually, this is totally, utterly pointless. I don't care that your viewpoint is not internally consistent. I'm bowing out of this argument. Post whatever you like in rebuttal, and just assume that I disagree with you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, I've read Withered Hope; I didn't see any difference between the GoBots technology vs. pretty much any other technology from TF fiction insofar as understanding enough to get the story. Or how getting a feel for the GoBots characters was any different than getting a feel for Cryotek or Crystal Widow or any of the other TransTech characters that have pretty much only gotten their characterization through the prose stories. I didn't feel like, "Well, this makes zero sense/feels like I'm missing part of the plot unless I've seen the GoBots cartoon."
::::::::::::::::::::::::"Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story."
::::::::::::::::::::::::So, er. Is that different than something like Infiltration #0?
::::::::::::::::::::::::And, my viewpoint is perfectly consistent, as evidenced by the fact that I'm pretty much ending up finding myself having to repeat myself over and over again because nothing you've said contradicts my point. Again, the only reason you're confused is because you keep inventing your own meanings and whatnot that I didn't actually say instead of paying attention to what I did. I doubt most people are going to find anything remotely confusing about "branded as or directly related to TF fiction/toys" because most people aren't doing mental gymnastics to find a convoluted way that something that's "nice but not absolutely important" background info at best and a cameo at worst is somehow important to know to understand some TF fiction. Sheesh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

=====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity=====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====A potential solution====
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::I could get behind that as a compromise.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::If you guys created a separate GoBots wiki, I would gleefully contribute as much as I contribute here. Wouldn't be too hard, either, since a good chunk of the episodes are available online and Counter X has scans of most of the really hard to find comics from the US and the UK. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:02, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be for it as well. We'd need an inter-wiki linking schema-- "gobots:" and "transformers:" seem dangerous-- there's gonna be articles called "Transformers: Subtitle", which makes that... um... potentially fraught. How about "w:gb:" vs. "w:tf:"? That mirrors the interwiki linkign schema used by Wikia to cross-link their sites, and is nicely distinct. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:30, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Honestly, I was about to suggest that myself, but I've been highly distracted as of late. Seems like the best solution to me... plus, it's a perfect excuse to haul out the GoBots bin and do extensive photoshoots of those. Of course, the big question... what do we name the band? GBWIKI to keep with TFWIKI's theme? That's where I'm leaning. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hrm... the toyline was just "GoBots," but the cartoon was "Challenge of the GoBots"... ''ah!'' But there were GoBot ancillary materials (like storybooks) not branded COTG, but simply "GoBots."
::There is no clear delineation that corresponds to the portion of the brand Hasbro may own. Calling it "Challenge..." would implicitly limit it to the cartoon and exclude other things. "GoBots" is probaby what we want to hit. So yeah-- "GBWiki" since the reason we're "TF" instead of "Transformers" is to avoid Hasbro's trademark-- and they '''do''' own the trademark on "GoBots." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:43, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could likely whip up a take on the GoBots logo for it when I get home.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I am particularly thinking: "GOBOTS - MIGHTY ROBOTS, MIGHTY WIKI" as the tagline.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:56, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Challenge of the GoBoxes!" Naahh, of course not. I just wanted to say it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::On that note, it wouldn't be hard at all to throw together a version of the Go Boxes using the GB logo's "GO" instead of our usual Prime-trailer-inspired one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:15, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Heheheheheheheheh. -[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Some surely practical suggestions:
::::*'''Interwiki schema:''' <nowiki>[[w:gb:Crasher]] / [[w:tf:Crasher (G1)]]</nowiki>
::::*'''site url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net (avoiding "Gobots" in the url since it's trademarked)
::::*'''Example article url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/w3/index.php?title=Crasher
::::*'''.htaccess cleared url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/wiki/Crasher
::::"w3" is arbitrary... sub-domains won't actually overlap the file-structure of the existing wiki. (But I feel like installing multiple wikis on one db-server might require a prefix.) Sub-domain feels like a good idea-- both because it's free, and because it enforces our co-branding. Anyway, I'm throwing those parameters out.
::::There '''seems''' to be consensus on this, but if we genuinely intend to spin off another wiki, I feel like there should probably be a formal community vote on the matter. You know-- since TFWiki ''isn't'' run by a cabal of #wiggii members?
::::Say... Measure passage requires 50% of voting editors and 2/3 of voting administrators voting "yea"-- with at least 1/3 of all administrators participating in the vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:11, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How many admins to we have?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I count nine. How many are actually active right now is another matter. Also, we need to do this. GoBots won't get a wiki at all otherwise. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, it'd require at least 3. Which is reasonable, given that TFWiki has some fairly inactive admins. (In a proper 'security council' scenario you'd want 6 of 9 admins participating for any measure to pass. 3 of 9 with at least 2 yea just ensures minimal oversight.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hopefully, we won't need a "security council" anytime soon. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::We don't have a lot of big votes like this one. AFAIK, the move from Wiki and re-licencing have been it.
:::::::::The admin-requirement really only exists to keep a bunch of editors from proposing something silly/crazy on a dead weekend and declaring it passed. (Not that the community would go along with it, but having a bare-minimum administrator rubberstamp requirement heads off potential mischief.) At least, this was the arbitrary requirement I came up with when we passed the relicensing vote, since I'm '''not''' an admin and I was the one proposing it, it seemed important as a means to establish the legitimacy of the vote. (We only got 3 admin voting for that... it was in the middle of convention season and half our people were gone.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::'''Is''' this what we think we want to do? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Those links link to wikia. Odd. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:00, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, very odd. KILL THEM NOW. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
On an interwiki schema... why not just <nowiki>[[tfwiki:*]] and [[gbwiki;*]]</nowiki>? It has the advantage of simplicity. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, to me this seems the easiest to remember.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::''*shrug*'' Forward-compatability? Site names are fine for everything we link to now, but a future sister-site could overlap existing article names. Frankly, my real motivation is that w:subject: names mean I could type "w:starwars:" instead of constantly misspelling "wookieepedia:" (I always forget the double-e.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And yeah, I think "w:name:" is currently set to link to wikia. Hrm. "ss:subject:"? (Sister-site?) "p:subject:"? (partner.)
::Wikipedia has a buttload of arbitrary prefixes for interwiki linking. A single consistent schema seems better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, this would seem to be a good opportunity to kill all the wikia interwiki links (except for the link-exchange deal with Wookieepedia). If a wikia page must be linked to, let it be an external (nofollow) link.
:::And the proposed gbwiki would be a sister/subproject, not a true external wiki like <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:*]]</nowiki> (and note the lack of a secondary prefix there). - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Regards an interwiki schema, why not just "h" for "Hasbro"? h:tf: and h:gb: And I second killing all of the wikia links except for Wookieepedia. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:41, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Not to be a bummer,I love the idea of a GoBot sister wiki, sounds like a lot of fun creating and reading, but an important point has been raised in the Allspark discussion of this: Can we afford it? Our Wiki apparently dosen't always quite pay for itself ad-wise and is basically kept afloat by Walky. Yes, a GoBot wiki would be smaller (and hopefully cheaper) but it also would likely be less popular a draw for adds. (GBs being much less mainstream than TFs now are). Again, it just seemed like a point that should be raised before we dive into the cool project... --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I offered to make a donation in that thread. Walky said that this wiki costs around $160 a month to maintain, with around $130 being covered by the ads, with those numbers fluctuating every month, obviously. A GoBots wiki would be only a fraction of the size of thise wiki, even when 100% completed in every way imaginable. With ads factored in, about how much do you think we'd need a month to cover the remainder? I could throw in $10 to $20 every month or thereabouts, and if a handful of people sporadically felt the urge to donate equal or less, you think we'd be covered or at least took the brunt of the financial burden off of Walky's shoulders?
:If we CAN do a GoBots wiki, it'd be nice if money wasn't what kept us from making it happen. But hey, I understand that that's the way the world goes 'round and all. Just sayin' that if a fraction of us skipped McDonald's once a month and gave that fiver to the wiki, we might be more or less financially secure. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Of course, we could just run the theoretical Gobots wiki on the same server, with the same ad boxes. Unless somehow we got a MASSIVE spike in traffic from Gobots fans that aren't Transformers fans (which I am somehow not seeing), it would probably work out to be exactly the same. (Not to discourage anyone from helping the wiki financially. You can do that also and it would help regardless. I'm just sayin'.) --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::This is good news. This would be ideal, if possible.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::What about a donation drive? We could have a meter on the frontpage, and after the donations reach an amount that could keep the wiki afloat for a while, we could launch GBWiki. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====Opposition====
Do we have the time or "manpower" for this? This wiki still needs a lot of work. For example, The Unicron Trilogy articles (especially Armada Mini-Cons) and the Beast Wars/Machines are more or less still a mess, and not up to the standards of more recent articles or more frequently-updated articles. I think we should work on getting these pretty important eras of '''Transformers''' up to scratch before our more frequent contributors divert (some) of their attention and free time to GoBots. And yes, I have recently put work into updating Armada and Beast Wars articles where possible, since our other members are most ably handling everything else. And no, I'm not suggesting the wiki should be work, I just think we should get this into order before we start doing something else. Maybe it's my probable Aspergers talking. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:50, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:You're assuming that people who would be working on this have any real knowledge or familiarity with UT materials. Someone may absolutely hate Armada/Energon/Cybertron and have no material to add there, but have much material to add to GoBots. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::From what I've seen, a good number of the people in this discussion or have discussed it elsewhere are those who have no problem with the UT or actually like it. But there's also Beast Wars - if everybody here likes BW, why are the articles so bad? :p I mean, if I was a newcomer to Transformers (or a returning fan because of the movies), I'd be pretty dissapointed if I came here looking for information about this "Beast Wars" other fans are always raving about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::At one point finishing all the BW or G1/RiD articles seemed like a pipe dream. Effort over time did it.
:::Frankly, I think the potential for such a split to draw in new editors outweighs the negatives of potentially splitting people's attention. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and of course, I can't make people do things they don't feel like doing. Still, concerns are concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:37, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wasn't trying to say that any particular person hated UT or BW, just that the assumption that the editors who would be working on GB would be drawn away from other parts is not necessarily true. Some people may become more active on mainstream TF articles even while working on GB articles. Something different often energizes people, and that energy can carry over to other things.
::::::Yeah, you can't force people to work on articles that don't interest them. If the spirit moves them to work on BW and UT they will. Adding a GoBot "section"/sister-wik wouldn't stop anything from happening (especially if it isn't happening to begin with). And it might just draw in new contributers or set someone off on a wiki-fying binge that gets a bunch of TF stuff done too. (ZacWilliam, logged out again, dumb laptop)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::People will work on what interests them. People doing productive work in one area will naturally discover other areas to focus on. Broadening our scope thusly will most likely bring in new editors, or at least reinvigorate old ones. Frankly, the whole argument that we shouldn't allow our editors to work on what they want in the hopes that they work on what someone else wants them to do is pretty flawed. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh come on, this is like not letting a kid eat dessert until he's finished his broccoli. "You want GoBots? Well you can't have em until you finish your Unicron Trilogy!" "But I haaaaate the Unicrooon Trilogyyyyy!" "STOP WHINING!" --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hell, the original ''The Transformers'' cartoon episodes still need a crapton of work (basically, if the Errors sections aren't several screens long, then we aren't doing our job!) Still, I don't see why any of that should stop us. Manpower may not be infinite, but it's not fixed, either; a wider net of subject area will likely attract a few more editors. And people who would work on UT stuff will probably do it anyway sooner or later, even if they do get distracted by GoBots for a while. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::You'll ALL see once I complete these sections by myself and spend hundreds of dollars importing DVD sets* for shows that I don't like YOU'LL ALL SEE!
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>This is a lie. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:59, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

====The Vote====
Well, um, let's do this thing.

* Jim Sorenson, votes '''aye'''.
* I'm in '''support''' of this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye''' - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]]
* I support this. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''YES'''. I'm all for it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:31, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Go for '''yes''', if there are no major problems. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 12:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Oh '''hell yes'''. A GoBot wiki sounds awesome, and how much time/manpower can that really take? There's a really tiny amount of GB stuff compared to TF, after all. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:53, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*Definatly a '''Yes''', if we don't do it who will? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye'''. This place is volunteer-based, let people work on what they want. --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]]
* '''Why the hell not?''' [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 15:07, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* I say '''Go''' for GoBots. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:09, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* [[User:Derik]] votes to '''affirm''' the proposed extension. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Support. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Sure''', why the heck not? I doubt I'll have much hand in it, but it's a good thing to have, and it would definitely be unique! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Another '''yes''' here. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Now that it seems to be its own entity, I am now in '''support''' of this addition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:35, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Oui.''' --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Yes'''. Best of all worlds for everyone, IMHO. (Although I personally won't end up contributing to it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Why the hell not.''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 20:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* A GoBots wiki? '''Yeeeeeess'''. (have you ever noticed how people always try to transcribe BW Megatron's "Yes" with a lot of Ss? But it's not the 'S' that he stretches; it's the short 'E' sound. "Yesssssssssssssss" would be like a snake hissing. I suppose it's in reaction to the English rule that turns two consecutive Es into a long E sound. "Yees!" ) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
**That's technically a long "i" sound. '''Sure''' to whatever we're voting for! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:21, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Fo' shizzle'''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:21, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Aye me hearties!''' [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 06:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yep''' (and M.A.S.K. has been subsumed into GI Joe somebody said? Since when?) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 13:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**Matt Trakker got a Joe toy this year and the bio card featured the revelation that VENOM was a sub-unit of COBRA and that MASK works for GI Joe. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Heck yes.''' (Also, MASK sucked) --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:54, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yes.''' (If MASK is part of G.I. Joe, we'll just have to eventually make another sister wiki for G.I.Joe, and then that wiki can have its own sister wiki for MASK. It'll be Tfwiki's cousin wiki. lol.)--[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:03, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**G. I. Joe has a Wiki, it's just not well maintained.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*Well, if there's that many people who want to work on the thing, '''Yes''' for me.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

====Results====
OK, I'm calling this thing. With 27 votes for yes and 0 votes for no, including votes from four admins, there is clearly overwhelming (unanimous, in fact) support for this endeavor. Awesome. Technical-minded folks, what are the next steps from here?

(Just for fun, let's see ... 88K! If this discussion were an article, it'd be the 16th largest on the site, so it's actually longer than 99.8% of the content we've produced.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:43, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
:Sweet. And, we really probably should archive this whole discussion as a "topic" thingy, I think... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah: this discussion is giving insane length warnings. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 09:20, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

Seriously, what are the next steps we need to take? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:I believe it waits on Scout and McFly having the time to set up the changes on our server. (Which, since I think that might involve Squid configuration might take awhile.)
:If people want to get started I suppose I ''could'' set up a placeholder mediawiki install on my domain, and when GBWiki-proper was ready I'd just hand them a database backup. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:57, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::Would you be willing? I think keeping the momentum going while enthusiasm is high is a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure. I'll set it up this evening. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:54, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Per request, a temporary home while TFwiki's hosts get their ducks in a line. [http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/ gbwiki.covertutopia.com/] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::So...um...we can get started, then? On the "early draft" stuff? I see no one's made any changes since you put that up, so I'm hesitent, that's all. Can I start on articles there now? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:38, 11 January 2010 (EST)
::::::I get the feeling from the edit summaries that folks can get started, it's just that everyone's been too busy/waiting for someone else to do it first. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)

====Getting Under Way====

Random thoughts: 1) Do we know for sure the "tech folk" (whoever they are) have seen this discussion, vote and result and are working on it, or planning to? I only ask cause I'm not sure who exactly "they" are and I don't remember seeing anyone saying anything like "we're on it". 2)Once things are definately underway, shound there not be an announcement or link on this side of the wiki somehere letting folks know about the new section/sister open for editting? And if yes, where would be good? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:05, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:I think it's a good idea, once we finalize some of the real basic stuff over on GBWiki's end. As it stands, we don't even really have a skeleton over there - there's a "list of Go-Bots episodes" page and that's about it. I think we need to get at least a rudimentary framework hung up - both in the sense of A: at least some stub articles for major characters and stories and a general "franchise overview" page to direct people around the site and B: getting all our formatting templates put into motion (character appearance boxes, episode navigation, etc.) At this point, I wouldn't really want to announce it on the front page because there isn't anything there to look at. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::Why does gb.tfwiki.net redirect to transformers wikia? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:32, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm guessing it's an artifact of when tfwiki.net originally pointed to Wikia. ''Any'' subdomain you type in other than www goes to Wikia right now, apparently.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::::It's fixed! --[[Special:Contributions/67.149.197.71|67.149.197.71]] 12:56, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Realize that I'm asking this out of a profound ignorance as to how the wiki "mechanically" works, but I assume that it just redirects to us now right, still not to edit-able GoBot-pages-to-be?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:04, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::Hmm, now all subdomains lead to tfwiki.net, but they're returning valid pages rather than redirecting to the "real" URL. If people link to "blah.tfwiki.net" then the search engines will start indexing the whole site a second time under that domain. The other subdomains should redirect as www.tfwiki.net does. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:26, 14 November 2009 (EST)

::::::[http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aen.tfwiki.net] [http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aww.tfwiki.net] See? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:30, 11 January 2010 (EST)

==2010==
===Executive Summary===
''There is no GoBots sister wiki.''

====What happened?====
http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/wiki/Main_Page
:"GoBots Wiki has a problem

:Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
:Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.

:(Can't contact the database server: Access denied for user 'emopanda'@'localhost' (using password: YES) (localhost))"

I was slagging ecstatic to see that there was going to be a Go-Bots wiki, because I knew next to nothing about 'em and wanted to learn about them. This is just disheartening. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 19:21, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's server, so check with him, though ISTR there hadn't been much info added to the GoBots wiki when it was up. The original intention was to run it on the same server as TFwiki - don't know what happened (or didn't happen) there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::My impression was that Derik's was only set up as a stop gap till the wiki got the one everyone voted for up. That never happened. I got the impression that though the community voted a big yes for it, the powers that be weren't that into it so the vote ammounted to nothing. Which is a shame cause I was really excited to see it happen. :P --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 20:48, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::The powers that be are busy getting married next month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::It was voted "yes" a year ago. I mean no offence meant, but that's a long time to get a ball rolling. With no appreciable news or announcements in that year I think assuming the big "yes" vote amounted to nothing is kinda understandable. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 21:01, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::General lack of interest. I suspect the number of people who can recite chapter-and-verse of every single Gobots episode, the way we here do for TFs, is very small. Of that small group, fewer still knew this project existed. "It might be cool" works for a half-hour download, not for creating an entire website devoted to about 70 hours of programming and 200 toys when you aren't already ''really'' into it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:40, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I was interested at the time because I thought doing an episode guide might be fun. But Counter-X came out with one recently and has about the most thorough collection of info on GoBots toys, merchandise and media; basically everything that would be up on a GoBots wiki, anyway. So I sorta lost my enthusiasm. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 22:47, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::For me, and I have to imagine some others given the widespread enthusiasm in the vote above, it has nothing to do with loss of enthusaism or lack of interest at all, but everything to do with no place to start. The vote was for a "seperate but linked" wiki meaning not just writing up gobot stuff and posting it here but waiting for the apropriate seperate framework to be given. If the OK was given to add Gobots just to our current wiki I'd start constructing GoBot articles and Character pages right away. Without it there's nothing for a potential poster to do but wait on the ptb to start things rolling. I am definately still enthusiastic about the idea and would definately still contibute if it ever comes to pass. (As a side note, the whole GoBotron is Primus thing from the Allspark Almanac 2 makes me want to add this stuff more than ever.) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 03:10, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I admit that I don't know all that much about GoBots, but by god I would learn as much as I could just so I could help contribute to a GoBots wiki. Without a wiki like this there really isn't any one place to find out everything about GoBots, without having to shell out for a book that probably doesn't have a very wide distribution. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:16, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The [http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots page] that Spengler mentioned is quite detailed. I spent some time a while ago reading though some of the pages, and it kinda made me wish the show was out on DVD. I don't think it ever screened here. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:28, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::As good as Counter-X is, it doesn't have the integration of information that we have here. For example, toy and cartoon data are on separate pages. Also, having multiple contributors means that things each individual is missing can still be covered if other individuals have access to them. Just because there is a decent Go-Bots site doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make our own, it just means that we should try to make ours even better.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:39, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

==2011==
===Executive Summary===
''Newbie brings up the idea again.''

====Cartoon?====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)]] page.}}

Why didn't we add info on Cy-Kill's appearances in the cartoon?[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 01:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
: We have already added info on all of Cy-Kill's appearances in the Transformers cartoon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:Where? I only see his appearance in the timelines comic, not the gobots or transformers cartoon.
::I refer you to what I just said. This is a Transformers wiki, not a Gobots wiki. We do not catalog Gobots fiction, only Transformers fiction. If Cy-Kill shows up in Transformers stuff, we catalog that. And we have. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::But Gobots and Transformers were both created by Hasbro, and Gobots are related to Transformers somehow. If you watched the documentuary Triple Changer, then you'd see that Gobots inspired Transformers. So basically, more info belongs here.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 15:47, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Read [[GoBots#Pre-GoBots]] and get back to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::They are CURRENTLY in the same company.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 16:28, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::No they aren't. Hasbro doesn't own all of Go-Bots. They merely bought Tonka. That doesn't mean they own all of the intellectual property involved. Rival toy company Bandai still owns the toys and Hanna-Barbara still owns the cartoon. At best, Hasbro owns some names. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Not to agree with this guy per say, but I just want to remind folks: 1) We did hold a vote of users, who at the time overwhelmingly approved that they wanted to do a separate-but-linked Go-Bots wiki as a sister thing under the TFwiki.net banner. And 2) Since that vote the Allspark Almanac officially established that the much interlinked franchise is a part of the TF Multiverse (if there was any doubt) and MORE that GoBotron is their universes body of Primus and the Go-Bots are their universes TFs. Soooo... Why keep them out? It's not like they'd even add THAT much. They've had nothing to talk about that's not here already in 20 years, and were fairly small then. I really can't think of a valid reason to ignore the retcon that they are and have always been TFs. I kinda feel they belong here. They didn't always, but now? Yes.--[[Special:Contributions/99.103.104.77|99.103.104.77]] 17:04, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::The AllSpark Almanac may claim that GoBots are fictionally linked to TFs, but that only makes that statement canonical, it doesn't make a cartoon that is not licensed fiction and does not belong to Hasbro canonical and Wiki-worthy. As for the GoBots Wiki... it was attempted, but nothing really came of it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:17, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::G.I. Joe and Jem are also in the Transformers multiverse. Probably also Spider-Man and Avengers. The AllSpark Almanac connects like a dozen series to the Transformers multiverse. WE ARE NOT ADDING ALL OF THOSE SERIES TO THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:19, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::It linked a lot of series Hasbro has ZERO rights to as well. So um... yeah. --[[Special:Contributions/71.70.225.1|71.70.225.1]] 19:18, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I remember being told that the GoBots wiki still had some technical details to work out before it was really ready to go live and then never heard anything more. Was it ever actually open for general editing? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:22, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::Derik had one set up on his own site (before it died) as a temporary measure while one got sorted out here. A GoBots wiki doesn't absolutely have to be hosted in the same place as TFWiki. If there's sufficient interest, one could be set up elsewhere. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::Well, 1) the retcon did more than place GoBots in the TF multiverse. It said they ARE Transformers and Primus IS Gobotron. That's different in my opinion than a crossover with Spidey or JEM. It's an apotheosis., which makes them and all about them valid material for us retroactively imo. But hey, I'm not gonna argue with the powers that be if they disagree. 2) Yeah, the GoBot sister wiki wasn't really tried as far as I've heard. It was voted for. Approved. And there was then never any movement to make it as far as I ever saw here. Derik was cool enough to make a placeholder site, but nothing ever moved here. Not a criticism, just saying If it had started I would have, and totally still would, contribute. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:37, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::If AllSpark Almanac claimed Pandora was another body of Primus, that wouldn't mean we'd start putting Avatar stuff in the wiki. The claim is canonical, but the fiction isn't. Simple as that. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:42, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I completely disagree. But I also don't care enough to argue the point. So... Meh, I guess. I'd rather the discussion moved to the voted for sister wiki. Cool idea I would have loved to have happened. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49#Gobots_on_the_wiki..._again --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:28, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

==2012==
===Executive Summary===
''More of the same.''

==== Integration ====

Okay since this discussion shut down and the wiki seems to be dead I thought I'd bring this up. Via the Club Fiction and the stuff seen in the Almanac, can we do an integration of the GoBots and Go-Bots based on them canonically having Universal Streams and being Transforming Robots? (I suppose this would also cover Robotix)
:No. There are almost no GoBots characters, no GoBots fiction before about 2006, and no Robotix characters or fiction whatsoever, to have ever been published under the appropriate brands required for inclusion here. The very small amount of material appropriate for inclusion is here already. The TFs canonically exist within some version of the Marvel universe, and yet we don't include every single other Marvel character on this wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:45, 12 January 2012 (EST)
:: Ah, but that's my point, if the GoBots and Bo-Bots have been retroactively canonized as altverse Transformers, does that not make them under the proper brand? (Unlike , let's say Captain America, who's never been revealed to be a Transfomers within the Marvel Comics Continuity) This isn't like the Sunbowverse, where non-TF elements are ignored unless pertinent to TF, this is a whole new kit n caboodle which has been declared to be TF under a different name. Just my five cents, since it seems this discussion just sorta petered out.
::: Discussion has petered out because we've explained a bojillion times why it's not going to happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::I ask again about the sister GoBots wiki seperate but connected to ours that people voted an overewhelming yes for doing way back when but then no one ever it set up. People seemed very interested in doing that when it was voted for during the first time this came up. People were still interested in working on it last time this came up. Just saying'.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 10:45, 13 January 2012 (EST)
:::::It is impossible to retroactively brand something. Hell, there are parts of Darth Vader that actually have been declared and marketed as a TF of some kind, but his prior 30 years of personification beyond those very limited branded appearances do not count and do not appear. It is exactly the same with name-dropping Robotix and then pretending it counted.
:::::At this point I am comfortable determining that nobody gives a shit about GoBots beyond the context of their minimal TF crossovers. It's been like 2 years since the vote and nothing has been done, and no one seems to be trying it anywhere else on the entire Internet either. The Almanac cannot create licenses retroactively, it can just say things and we can go on rightfully ignoring them. It's 2012 and wiki software is easily available - if anyone cared it would have been done. Sorry if I come off too strong, it's just that the non-licensed-hood of every pre-2006 scrap of GoBots fiction and characterization is incredibly open and shut and I really don't see why people keep coming here to try to wish that away. --Thy, not logged in
:::::::Thy, the vote was to start it on our serves as a linked but equal thing and then our folks would fill it once it existed. Every time this comes up as it has multiple times. Folks say that they'd loved to edit and add to it as a companion to ours if it existed. But no one has set it up for them to do it. Basically the interest is there in the community whomedit the wiki but not in the folks who administer the wiki, yes? That seems to be what I see.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:03, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::Gotta agree with the anon here. When the GoBots wiki was to be set up I was told that there were some problems to be worked out with the underlying programming and we would be told when it was ready. The next thing I knew, it was no longer accessible at all. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:04, 13 January 2012 (EST)

==June, 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''Things heat up, as [[Ask Vector Prime]] starts to generously include information regarding GoBots''

==== GoBots articles ====

Is there some reason why we're not having full coverage of the GoBots characters' exploits in GoBots fiction? It seems kind of silly to acknowledge their existence in Transformers media and then... not really provide relevant information. It's not really like there's any cohesive GoBots site with all information in one spot, you know? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 03:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:There is such a site, and its existence has been cited in the past here as one of multiple valid reasons why adding GoBots to this wiki has never gotten off the ground. http://counter-x.net/gobots/ --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:34, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::As good as that site is, it doesn't go into nearly as much detail about its topic as we do about ours. Also, it is maintained by a much more limited set of editors (maybe even just one?). Our larger editor base could bring more eyes and viewpoints to the material. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:07, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:It's been discussed in the past with some trepidation, and the idea of a "sister wiki" for GoBots content was floated, but nobody really seemed into the idea and we haven't talked about it since. At this point, though, with more and more GoBots stuff working its way into TF fiction, along with the complete release of the GoBots cartoon on DVD, perhaps it's time to talk about giving the GoBots show and characters their full and proper due on TFWiki again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:29, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I don't actually know all that much about the GoBots *coughthatswhyweneedinformativearticlescough*, but I'd be more than willing to help with article maintenance and setup if we ever decide to go ahead with it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 05:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::As I've said before, when the GoBots wiki was proposed I was told that there were technical issues to be taken care of before it could be opened for editing and that the community would be told when it was ready. The next I heard about it was that it was being shut down as not having attracted interested editors. I am still fully supportive of either option, a sister wiki or integration. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:12, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::A sister wiki seems like an weird excuse to overcomplicate things. Is there really any reason to not have all the information in one spot? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 07:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::At the risk of overcomplicating things further, since we'd be including Go-Bots because the characters were retroactively made into alternate universe Cybertronians/Transformers, would we also provide complete coverage of [[Robotix]] since it was retroactively altered the same way? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 07:59, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::I'd say no, because we wouldn't be covering GoBots specifically because they were retconned to be alt-universe TFs, we'd be covering them because involvement of their universe and characters has become a recurring thing, and the two franchise have always been paired in some capacity or another. Maybe when Robotix actually does something that ''matters'' and isn't just a winky in-joke; otherwise covering them would amount to covering something like Jem or Inhumanoids in full. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::: Oh god please no to Robotix.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::::For the sake of argument: TFWiki don't have complete coverage of G.I. Joe, despite it's many interactions with Transformers. TFWiki has relevant articles, but not complete coverage. Why do so for GoBots? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] ([[User talk:Crockalley|talk]]) 08:10, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Can you REALLY not see a difference between G.I.Joe, Jem, Inhumanoids, etc and GoBots and Robotix? ''Really''? GoBots and Robotix have both been said to be counterparts of the Transformers. Joe, Jem, and the Inhumanoids haven't. Covering GoBots and Robotix fiction IS covering TF fiction, covering Joe, Jem, and Inhumanoids fiction is not. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:15, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::For the love of God, NO. We already feature all the GoBots characters and stories that were published under the TF brand label, just like the relevant Avengers and G.I.Joes. We don't pull in all of the everythings that all of their colleagues ever did in unrelated, non-Transformers stories. It will never belong here. Adding 80 characters and 100 hours of programming? No. As someone said in one of the prior iterations of this, if Vector Prime said that Pandora was a transdimensional embodiment of Cybertron and Eywa was its Vector Sigma portal, we wouldn't fill this wiki with every character and animal from Avatar. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Avatar isn't a property owned by Hasbro nor something that's been constantly involved in the Transformers multiverse, so I'm not seeing the comparison. It also has its own dedicated fanbase and resources, which isn't really something you can say for GoBots; its presence in real life almost wholly overlaps Transformers. (It'd be around 26 hours, to be accurate.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::And, ultimately, why does it matter that much if we make one exception for this? It's not going to result in a full-blown biography of Spider-Man from Earth-616 (which exists elsewhere in plenty of places) or full coverage on G.I. Joe (which has its own fanbase that can make a resource if they want to). We're talking about a small subset of articles that you aren't required to work on. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:54, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why wouldn't it result in a full bio of Spiderman? The distinction between the two offtopic properties is arbitrary and insignificant. If you want to talk about ownership, Hasbro owns Visionaries and we know they canonically exist in the Animated galaxy. Shall we bring in articles on Leoric and Heskidorr and the Pig Imp? If you break down the rule of "TF branded material only," then the only thing keeping all the Inhumanoids out is personal preference and "oh, come on!"-ing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::''Logic.'' Any potential revival of Visionaries is not going to be done under the Transformers brand. Spider-Man does not exist under the Transformers brand, G.I. Joe does not exist under the Transformers brand. GoBots now, for all intents and purposes, ''does''. A full revival being hilariously unlikely, anything Hasbro does with the IP in the future - as well as everything it is currently actually ''allowing'' licensees to regularly do with the IP in a capacity beyond "referential nudge-nudge wink wink jokes" - is under the Transformers brand. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::On the contrary - the only published Visionaries story material in 29 years was under the TF brand. It is far more likely that like Inhumanoids, the Visionaries will continue only as a hanger-on of Tramsformers fiction Easter eggs forever. And all of the GoBots material that was published under the TF brand, and is in any way related to real TF characters and stories, is already here. Which is all that belongs here. Hasbro owned Battle Beasts from the start and we currently include all the actual TF branded appearances of Battle Beasts / Beastformers. But we give only the most sparse coverage to the American comic book and American Battle Beast characters because it wasn't a real, branded, linked TF story the way the Japanese material was. We have to stick with standards and not just what people might personally find fun. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:40, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::That's why I stipulated a capacity beyond referential in-jokes for fans, which is all the Inhumanoids or Visionaries references amount to. I think where the disagreement lies is in whether or not we think of GoBots as another franchise that is being "referenced" or having "crossovers" with Tranformers - that's what Visionaries is, but my stance is that it is ''no longer'' the case with GoBots, but that GoBots is now ''part'' of the Transformers franchise and warrants broader treatment than Spider-Man-style articles where we pretend we don't know who Leader-1 is. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:52, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Also, slippery slope arguments are silly, unless the people involved are idiots with no judgement capacity, computers, or state legislatures. You're concerned about things that no one is advocating or interested in. Regardless, I think everyone gets that you're against the idea.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::That's not a slippery slope argument. That's pointing out that putting in Go-Bots would be inconsistent with how we treat other non-Transformers franchises. And, frankly, I think Jim Sorenson should probably recuse himself from this discussion since he's the guy trying to use official means to marry TF and Go-Bots with rubber bands, Elmer's glue, and footnotes. It feels a little disingenuous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:23, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Fair point. I'll bow out. (Though I'm far from the first or only person to play in this sandbox. In fact, expect more from others in the very near future.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:55, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

IF we decided to do this, I think we'd want strict guidelines from the start about what is and is not in scope. Since the toys were mostly licensed from Bandai, a Hasbro competitor, I would say they should NOT be included. Also, ancillary media has been pretty much ignored by TF fiction.

My gut says that The Challenge of the GoBots cartoon (65 episodes, 1 movie) is about the extent of what we'd want to include. No coloring books, no Machine Robo, none of that. It's the easiest bit to do, the most influential, and the bit that Hasbro mostly has claim to.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Hasbro has a claim to the cartoon? Then how come [http://www.wbshop.com/product/challenge+of+the+gobots-+the+series,+volume+one+%28mod%29+1000486768.do Time Warner sells it], no probs, without any Hasbro logos anywhere? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:08, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::The text on the back of the original mini-series DVD refers to "Hasbro's GoBots". - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::And the newer ones? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::They don't mention it, no, but I'm just pointing out that Warner's put it on there. Hasbro don't ''own'' the cartoon, we know that. I think we can all at least agree GoBots is a ''weird'' case, where Hasbro own the "idea" of the property and the characters and story and such but none of the actual physical ''assets''. It's my contention that those "ideas" are now a part of the Transformers brand, and not guest-stars from another franchise. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::As far as I can discern, they own the name, what other trademarks they've maintained, and that's about it. They don't own the character likenesses and they certainly don't own the toys, and it's confirmed they don't own the cartoon, either. We're not going to catalog a non-Transformers cartoon Hasbro doesn't own on this wiki, no matter what Vector Prime says. If you want to cover the "idea" of what they own, that can be accomplished by adding to the already-existing "Gobots" article. Hasbro owning part of a sliver of an idea of GoBots doesn't mean we need a "Scratch" or "Sparky" article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:35, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:Agreed. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I'd still like to see all the other stuff done up, but am willing to leave that for another day if it helps get this moving along. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Same. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:50, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::This has been asked about 6 times in the recent past, including after the Gobotron incorporation, and it loses every single time. I think it's insppropriate to seriously discuss going ahead with it after about 2 hours of talk. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:01, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'm not sure what you're defining as the "recent past", but the last time I can find was in [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49|2010]]. We're obviously going to wait for more input before we start pumping out articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:17, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::Here's 2011: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Cy-Kill_(GoBots)
::::::Here's 2012: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I am with Thy. This has been argued to death a billion times over, and nothing has changed. We're not about to start cataloguing stuff that isn't Transformers media on our Transformers wiki. That's the opposite of what this wiki is about, and no amount of Vector Prime answers will make some Hanna-Barbara series into a Transformers one. Folks who want to catalog Go-Bots should make their own wiki, and if they can't drum up the interest to do so, and have to piggy-back on ours in order to get it done, maybe that should tell ya something. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:13, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Full agreement with Thy and Walky. And I'd like to point out that I'm one of the bastards who created the lion's share of TF-branded GoBots material. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:02, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:If we can't document [http://monzo12782.tumblr.com/post/105019142648/and-then-there-was-that-time-the-renegades that time Cy-Kill dressed up as George Washington], what's the point of cataloging any of it at all? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 10:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Well, you just made my day.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:44, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

==October 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''A full-on GoBots Facebook pages prompts multiple proposals, resulting in several votes, ultimately opting to... make no changes to existing policy''

==== GoBots 2015 ====
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

=====Call for Vote=====

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. 
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. 
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Zebediah Braxis|Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

======Vote Results======
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

======Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture======

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. Over my dead body.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's dead body, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

==January 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''The first real change in 6 years. [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] is declared to be technically not Transformers fiction by [[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]], a proposal by [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]].''

==== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ====

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
=====Walky Calls It=====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

=====Epilogue: It's all over but the crying=====
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

=====Questions and self reflection=====
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Starscream (Armada)|Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful. I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case. (Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

===== Reviving the Sister Wiki =====

So, I'm not going to argue about getting Gobots information on here anymore. However, this has made me want to actually go ahead and make that sister wiki. Now, I have no clue how to work with anything more than the most basic softwear, but I'd actively contribute to such a wiki. Is there anyone else who would? And if so, is there anyone who could set up a site? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)
: I'd be happy to contribute/move pages and info over from this wiki to any hypothetical Gobots wiki. That said, I have no software experience either, so I'm in the dark there along with you. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:59, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::Maybe we could ask abates or something like that. If Derik was here, he could probably set something up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:07, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page I have no real interest in GoBots nor any particular technical skill, but this seems like your best bet for setting up a wiki. It's Mediawiki, so it should work pretty much the same as this site (just, you know, without templates. Or a custom skin, unless you can get someone to do that. Or a unique url. Or content.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'd love to help out with this. I think with what I've seen about fights on TFWiki about GoBots, this would be a good solution, and then the pages that actually would exist here could link to there. I don't know much about GoBots or site editing, but I've been enjoying Renegade Rhetoric and would like to learn more about the GoBots. If this occurs, please let me know and I'll learn/teach myself what I need to help. Would this GoBots wiki consist of the AVP and related stuff also? "[[User:SoundJack426|SoundJack426]] ([[User talk:SoundJack426|talk]]) 20:40, 8 January 2016 (EST)"
:::::Yes, which brings me to my next point: One more thing I want to ask about any potential sister Gobots wiki: would we add Rock Lords information there too? Cause they were marketed separately, but they pretty much exclusively showed up in Gobots fiction, aside from the random storybook. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:09, 10 January 2016 (EST)

I've been amazingly busy, but I still want to come back to this. I did make some attempts at cobbling some stuff, quickly realizing I'm still stuck with my understanding of coding at Windows XP Microsoft word and having no understanding of what any of this stuff means. However, I do want to at least try to make this wiki happen. I'd have to wait till summer to make any real big push with this, but in the meantime, if anyone can offer any means or advice, it would be appreciated. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:31, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==February 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''Clarification of existing status of GoBots on the wiki. Crossover GoBots get full write-up, with brief Renegade Rhetoric summaries.''
==== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ====

Is there any objection to my adding External Links to Counter-X's Challenge of the GoBots profile pages to the character pages here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:54, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:I was doing it only in lieu of TFU.info links. TFU seems to be our standard for outside toys links and we typically don't do others unless TFU lacks them for some reason. But I dunno if there's a legit policy about it or not. (that said, Counter X is a great GoBot-centric resource and probably more informative than TFU, just my opinion) --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:58, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::Counter-X has actual cartoon bio pages to link to, not just toy reviews.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:59, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think there's any issue with adding informative links. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:31, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::::Okay, Renegade-related pages linked. I'll tackle the Guardians later. Unless someone else wants to do it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:27, 5 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Guardian-related pages linked. I changed format a time or two, I will go back later and harmonize ALL of them. Unless someone else beats me to it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:52, 22 February 2016 (EST)

OK, just to clarify, what Chris McFeely proposed last month was this: ''"GoBots characters only mentioned in Renegade Rhetoric stories consolidated into simplified 'List of Guardian' and 'List of Renegade' pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles."'' So, it's permissible to write up full articles for characters who appear in the crossover fiction, yes, detailing their adventures in said crossover fiction? Those who only appear in Renegade Rhetoric get consolidated into a list with brief description of their Renegade Rhetoric adventures with links to the RR/src archive. And for the characters who do appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get that brief description with link to archive. I don't want to do work that will get reverted or start an argument, which is why I'm double-checking what Chris proposed and the community agreed.

If my understanding is correct, I'll try to write up the crossover fiction stuff, and then take a stab at consolidating whoever's left. I thought I remembered seeing a sandbox of consolidation, did anyone make any progress on that?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:55, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:Considering that we now list it as "Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric", does that distinction still apply? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:21, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::Let's not bring up old wounds and rehash old arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:43, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::Chris's proposal was based on the idea that Renegade Rhetoric wasn't Transformers fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::Jim has stated before that the "Transformers" part of the title doesn't really mean anything and shouldn't be taken too seriously. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:53, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I guess I can't argue against that. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:57, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::I would, however, argue that the RR appearances of characters who have other TF fiction appearances should be on their pages and not just on the archive. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:01, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::: I don't want to argue about anything. I just want to confirm that I am correctly understanding and interpreting what was decided.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:10, 25 February 2016 (EST)

So... no opinions on this? I'm maybe 90% sure I'm right in my interpretation, but I'd love Chris or Walky to weigh in just to be certain. If no one cares anymore, I'll assume I'm right and get started. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:46, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:Yep, your summary matches what I envisioned. I started [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|this sandbox]] for the Renegades but I've been busy. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:30, 26 February 2016 (EST)
::Great. I'll try to get some progress done this weekend. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:20, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:::I would say, though, that it'd be worth linking to at least one of the TFU/Counter-X profiles from these list pages, given that they provide useful context ''without'' it being the wiki's coverage; in particular, the likes of Jack Attack and Decker Decker, who (on the sandbox as it stands) don't give any indication of which unused Machine Robo toys they're based on, meaning it would be pretty much impossible for casual readers to track them down. I remember that someone proposed using a table instead of headers for the list pages; maybe have a column in the table for Counter-X links? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:40, 26 February 2016 (EST)

==March 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''After the publication of [[Echoes and Fragments]] makes the previous ruling on Renegade Rhetoric moot, the community declares that ALL Facebook GoBots material is off limits on the grounds that we simply don't like it / it causes too many arguments, whether or not it is Transformers fiction.''

====Echoes and Fragments====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Echoes and Fragments]] story page.}}

=====Initial Discussion=====
If ever we were given cause to kill individual GoBots pages, this disgusting masturbatory horseshit is '''''it'''''. If ever there was doubt that these things were being done to end-run and abuse the wiki, it's dead. Jesus fucking Christ. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Finding it hard to argue with you. I mean.. geez. This is a lot of effort put into something for inconsequential stuff... Imagine if people put this much effort into... making a Go-Bots wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:46, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh ''dear''. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::(Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think that's what's going on here. Jim seemed perfectly fine with this stuff not being on the wiki. I really think he just has fun writing GoBots stories and is happy that Hasbro lets him. I guess it's my own OCD that makes me want to write up the GoBots who meet Transformers here, just like we do with Marvel heroes and G.I. Joe characters.
::::::::And as to this "stretching the definition" of a story... does it? Did you read it? I laughed out loud at several parts and found the juxtaposition of GoBots elements with the overly familiar Transformers The Movie story rather clever. Blaster getting swapped for Blaster, Leader-1's corny response to "why throw away your life so recklessly", Fracture and Deadlift as Unicron upgrades for Crasher and Deadlift. It's a good read, and virtually every scene has a traditional Transformer in it. So, to call it not a Transformers story seems unfair. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 04:13, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Forget it, you win. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:16, 1 March 2016 (EST)

I was just ''waiting'' for this story to shit everything up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 04:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Okay, so... as an extended story, I think this warrants its own page, yes. (As Jim pointed out, the original is only slightly shorter than the upcoming Beast Wars: Uprising story.) And it ''is'' heavily Transformers-based, as opposed to being more-or-less pure GoBots fiction like Renegade Rhetoric is. But I think that, really, 70-80% of this article could be replaced with "events followed as in Transformers: The Movie, except with these GoBots replacing these Transformers", because... that's what it is. We don't need full descriptions of anything except the Sideways/Vector/Gong parts. (Also, the sooner we condense the GoBot character pages, the better. All those red links are making me nervous that someone's going to start adding them.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:And that's exactly what I'm advocating. The page SHOULD exist. But really. ''REALLY''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 05:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::No? None of them? I mean, some get a ton of fiction here. Is there any intellectual foundation for this position, or is it basically just "we don't like it." I see plenty of room to condense characters, but certainly this should expand the scope of who gets featured. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:09, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::Don't. Just... don't, dude. This is not something you will get supported on, I assure you. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Sigh.

Giggidy, I like you, I truly do. I appreciate your enthusiasm for AVP and co. But there's a point where you have to step back on some things, and wonder if you're going too far.

Now, as for the article itself, I feel that there's bits that are acceptable and bits that aren't. The notes section is fine, who's replaced with who makes sense. But the summary really needs paring down. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:47, 1 March 2016 (EST)

It seems a bit narcissistic to insist that Jim shouldn't write what he wants to write because of the wiki or that it's the purpose of his work. Nobody's obligated to respect our idiosyncrasies when it comes to particular topics. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)

===== Delete =====
Why is this even an issue? I thought this was all settled two months ago. If the wiki doesn't want to cover GoBots (or any other piece of my writing, or anyone elses' for that matter) the wiki doesn't have to. I'm a big believer in engaging with the bits of the franchise you like, and ignoring the bits you don't. Giggidy, the reason I asked you not to write up this article was because it's evident which way the majority of this particular community leans. Just respect that. I'll write whatever I want, the wiki can cover whatever it wants, and other readers can read or not read whatever they want. It's not rocket science here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:11, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:The issue is that this isn't unambiguously GoBots fiction like the majority of us consider Renegade Rhetoric to be; it's combination GoBots and Transformers fiction, a la Withered Hope. I don't think anyone actually thinks this shouldn't be covered. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:43, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I definitely think this should be covered. The issue of how to handle the Go-Bots elements is something we'll have to deal with somehow. (I ''think'' we said they would all go in a list article or something? Am I understanding that correctly?) If there was a Go-Bots wiki, I'd say we should link to that, but... -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 1 March 2016 (EST)

======A different proposal======
Since this story was presented by Vector Prime in universe as a document written by his student, Blueshift, what if we were to likewise treat this story as such? Instead of this article covering the events of a fictional story written by a real world author (Jim Sorenson), it would cover the contents of a fictional document written by a fictional author (Blueshift), thereby treating the actual story within the document as a meta-fictional story-within-a-story that we needn't cover in the same manner as real-world fiction, but still having it covered on here in some fashion. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm against it. There's no point being cheeky about it and trying to find loopholes so we can get to say "it doesn't count." The Go-Bots can still get one list-page. There's no reason list-pages can't be just as informative, interesting, and in-depth as anything else. And there's no reason why the existence of this specific fiction should change our approach to the Go-Bots being documented. It's not about whether the story is good or bad. I enjoy Sorenson's writing frequently. It's about the fact that we approach different franchises outside of TF on a pretty case-by-case basis, and I think the (mostly) list article is the fairest approach for Go-Bots. G.I. Joe has special "rules" that let us include a little bit more than we would for say, Star Wars. I know my reaction was based on the presumption of what it meant about other Go-Bots articles. I'm sure that's the case for other people. Everything should be documented in full, as it should be, but you shouldn't wind up on a Go-Bots page every third click of the "Random Page" button with the current proposal. Article stands. List of Go-Bot stands. That's what I think. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::''Fine''. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Giggidy, please, let it go. "We don't like GoBots" is a PERFECTLY VALID and legitimate reason not to want to write about it. They don't NEED a better reason, so stop asking for one.
:::::::And, wiki folks, not for nothin', but I strongly recommend just adopting the stance that all GoBots are verboten and not try to contort yourself through intellectual hoops to justify their exclusion. I've had GoBots in my work since 2010 (though you can be forgiven for not realizing that <nowiki>[[Zero (Animated)]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[Zero (GoBots)]]</nowiki> aren't the same dude, since I hadn't introduce the concept of the diaspora yet) and I'm not likely to stop any time in the near future. I'll be happier if every time you see a Monster GoBot in Uprising or there's some new GoBot face in Axiom Nexus it doesn't kick off a big argument, and in the long run you'll be happier too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:27, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think we ''want'' that, though. The solution of "all GoBots compacted onto a few pages for GoBots fiction from the Facebook pages" is a reasonably elegant one, I think, that lets us remain a comprehensive source of Transformers information without being flooded with individual GoBot stubs (due to the fact that a good deal of the Facebook content is as much GoBots as it is Transformers, and the wiki does not consider the former to be a subset of the latter). Scrubbing all GoBots content off entirely would be a bad idea; we shouldn't not cover the likes of Zero, Vamp and Creepy just because they originated in GoBots. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:28, 2 March 2016 (EST) (And I never want to say anything with that density of the word "GoBots in again".)
:::::::::If we were a Beatles compendium, we couldn't get away with "Let's not include Yoko Ono at all because we don't like her involvement in the band." (and no, I'm not comparing anyone to Yoko Ono.) For better or worse, Go-Bots is part of Transformers fiction now, and simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 11:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::::Ding ding ding. Stop letting petty wiki grudges dictate our content. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:47, 2 March 2016 (EST)

::::::::::Ascendron's right. While filling the site with GoBots stubs is undesirable, to ignore them entirely would be to ignore a fairly large chunk of recent Transformers fiction. I think the list article is probably the best solution, and it's one we had already agreed upon, if I remember correctly. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 11:58, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page. That will be then, this is now. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 12:18, 2 March 2016 (EST)

Can't we just get past this bullshit already? Some people on the wiki don't like covering GoBots, but nobody is obligated to respect the supposed "consensus" of some website and we will just have to deal. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:01, 2 March 2016 (EST)

=====Individual Write-Ups=====
OK, we're definitely not deleting, which I agree with. But that brings us to this:
:"simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website."
How is that not what we're doing by not writing up the characters who appear prominently in this story? Keeping in mind that the previous proposal specifically does not cover this story or anything like it. The intellectual foundation for excluding [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]] is that "it's not Transformers fiction." Leaving aside the sheer absurdity of declaring that licensed fiction about transforming robots published under [[:File:RenegadeRhetoricLogo.jpg|this logo]] with [[:File:RR Title - Opportunity Knocks Part 2.jpg|these]] [[:File:RR Title - Babysitting.jpg|title]] [[:File:RR Title - All Tomorrow's Utopias.jpg|cards]] is somehow "not Transformers fiction", we all, even M Sipher and Walky, agree that '''Echoes and Fragments''' is Transformers fiction. So none of the logic or reasoning for keeping them to one big list applies. The only person who seems to be advocating for "if you don't like it don't cover it" is Jim Sorenson himself, so I again ask, is there any intellectual foundation or argument to not cover characters appearing in this story other than "we don't like them"?

Ascendron, statements like this "Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page." make me think that you're making some kind of notability argument. I went ahead and added Echoes fiction to the existing [[Major Mo]] page, as well as condensing the existing RR fiction and adding the very brief high-level summary of the RR fiction that hadn't yet been documented. I kept the Echoes to an extremely high level, like we're to do with RR fiction. Even with all of his appearances limited to just the bullet points, it's a real and substantial article. It would be much longer if we actually documented his appearances the way we do everything else. Is his article really less substantial than the likes of [[Harcourt]] or [[Marty Cooper]] or [[Roxy Sparkles]] or [[Brawley (ROTF)]] or [[Deep Earth Scout]]?

I get that some people don't like GoBots. I get that people are sick of arguing about it. But at some point, isn't it easier and simpler to just stop putting our fingers in our ears and shouting at the top of our lungs "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NO GOBOTS HERE" and just treat them exactly like we'd treat any other piece of licensed fiction, and stop making special rules and exclusions for them? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:57, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Because GoBots is a special case, and one of the biggest cases of bad-faith manipulation of the Timelines Facebook pages, and it ''feels wrong'' to give characters full pages because they didn't show up in this given that we're not doing so for Renegade Rhetoric characters. It may not be entirely consistent, but it's also what the opinion of pretty much everyone except you, Giggidy, seems to be. So, if you can convince people to support you, great, but until you can show evidence of consensus we are likely to stick with counting the GoBots characters from this story as a Renegade Rhetoric appearance. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:31, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Is it? You and Chris have chimed in, and that's it. If two people on a random talk page is enough to not cover characters fully, why don't I go over to Kiss Players and start a talk page there and see if I can get two or three people to agree to de-wiki all that stuff?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::And Sipher, and Ascendron has indicated that he'd rather have all GoBots links have to go to Wikipedia than to let this "mess up" the wiki. And, you know, it doesn't even ''matter'' until the list pages are live, so I'm not going to say any more on this subject until it becomes ''actual'' furniture-shuffling, as opposed to just hypothetical. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:02, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::Rather telling that so many folks vote for a "solution" and then make zero effort to implement it. Meanwhile I'd be done updating it by now if people weren't so busy advocating for special exceptions be made and extended rather than just treating this fiction the same way we do everything else, including the German bits that make no sense and the Japanenergy tentacle porn.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:19, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::I get that the consensus is that GoBots fiction from before Hasbro bought Tonka is considered out of bounds here (I don't AGREE with it, but I see no point in continuing that fight). What I DON'T understand is how, given that we've been told that GoBots are their universe's equivalents of Transformers, there is any justification for leaving out any new GB fiction. GBs are TFs now, so new GB fiction IS new TF fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::I agree, but there's nothing we can do about it at this point. There's a reason the dissenters have stopped replying; they've won, and they know arguing about it futhermore is pointless. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Well, not really. If it's a vote about handling Echoes characters, there is at least as much support for treating them the way we normally do is making a special exception, so it's probably safe to go ahead and do so. On the otber hand, if you're talking about revisiting the Renegade Rhetoric decision, I agree with you that that would be a pointless discussion. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:47, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::And I don't think the "consensus" will change. It's still "eviiiiil maniac Jim out to destroy our poor wiki with GoBots", regardless of the specific label it's under. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:05, 3 March 2016 (EST)

I just wish someone beyond the people who wanted to keep it and those who only wanted it separated because of all the arguing would do something with this list idea, cause I sure as hell don't see anyone arguing against their inclusion since the beginning helping with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:50, 3 March 2016 (EST)

So, at least 4 of us in favor of treating this like any other piece of TF fiction and not saying that it's not Transformers fiction as Renegade Rhetoric is. (Me, Saix, Khajidha, Ascendron per his talk page.) We know Chris disagrees, and Riptide because it ''feels wrong''. Anyone else want to chime in? And is "feels wrong" a precedent we want to set as a reason to exclude content? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:15, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:All I really have to say is that ''if'' we treated it like any other piece of Transformers fiction, we'd have to give everyone who appears in it a page, as per wiki rules. It's kind of arbitrary to say "Major Mo and Alice and Bob appear in this more than anyone else does, so they should get pages but nobody else should". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:36, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::But I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that characters with a substantial role get a page. It's "kind of arbitrary" to treat this differently than any other piece of crossover fiction too, but I don't see that stopping you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:02, 4 March 2016 (EST)

::There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages and I personally don't mind, but the whole argument on GoBots keeps causing ill-feeling and conflict around here so I'm voting against. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 11:33, 4 March 2016 (GMT)

The previous mandate handed down was about GoBots in general. No one could read it and assume it was specifically about ''Renegade Rhetoric'' and not about other Gobots-material creeping in, particularly not other Gobots-material from the same source in a slightly different format. '''''NO''''', there should '''''NOT''''' be individual pages for GoBot characters who appeared in Echoes and Fragments.

And Giggidy, by leading the charge on this, you've really shown that you learned ''nothing'' from the last AVP fiasco about how to usefully contribute to the Wiki. This is...the worst thing you could have done. Honestly. The worst. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 07:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|previous mandate]] specifically stated "since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become GoBots fiction, not Transformers fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from Challenge of the GoBots "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki" I don't see how anyone could read that as anything other than what it says. It says Renegade Rehetoric has become GoBots fiction which we don't cover. Echoes and Fragments everyone agrees is Transformers fiction. Ergo it has nothing to do with Chris' proposal. Note Charles above, "There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages," or even Ripclaw on [http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-162 Allspark:] "I... can't really come up with a cohesive argument against it, so...". I [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of|even asked Chris]], who authored the proposal, if my understanding was correct, and he said it was. I cannot understand what possible reasoning there is beyond "we don't like it" which was explicitly rejected above, and apparently neither can anyone else. We're literally taking a story everyone agrees is Transformers fiction and not covering the main character, who is also on the cover, because some OTHER DIFFERENT GoBots story is "not Transformers" despite being branded as such. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

Upthread, Jim says he's been writing GoBots into his stories since 2010. The article says this story was published in 2008. The article was created 3 days ago. Something doesn't add up. I've watched with great appreciation as McFeely continues to develop his master list of GoBot pages. Once those go live, 90+% of the current GoBot stand-alone pages will get the immediate, permanent, and incontestable deletion they deserve, and there will be no more shadows of loopholes that might confuse new readers about our policies.

And honestly, if people keep pushing the envelope I suspect it would really fucking backfire. We were sick of this shit already YEARS ago. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:10, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The article says the story was published in 2016. I think Jim is probably referring to [[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:09, 4 March 2016 (EST)

=====I capitulate=====
Fine. Even though there is zero intellectual coherence behind the position of not covering the characters in this story, I'll stop arguing because again I'm inexplicably in the minority. All I was suggesting was that we handle this story exactly like we handle every other crossover story. I didn't agree with the ruling on Renegade Rhetoric not being Transformers fiction, but I respected that there was a solid foundation for it. This decision has no foundation aside from "we don't like it" which is a terrible reason not to cover the licensed branded fiction. And since Sorenson has stated that there's more GoBots fiction coming in the future, I look forward to the NEXT argument when people try to stretch the fig-leaf of "we don't like it" to cover more and more. Because you know it's coming. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

==== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ====

[[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|The existing rule was:]] "I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles"

That caused a lot of argument over [[Echoes and Fragments]], since most people did not want to create new pages for each named character even though 'legally' it's fine. This is going to come up again when new GoBots appears in a Transformers fanfic (and Macrocosmic Seekers is all about that).

At this point, might be worth altering the law to "who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories with a moderate-to-large role in Transformers fanfiction" i.e. [[Major Mo]] is fine because he had a big role in Echoes but Back Grounder the Rock Lord who was only mentioned briefly in a crowd scene is not. That seems to be the spirit of the law. - [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 17:27, 4 March 2016 (GMT)
:I vote no. "GoBots characters and concepts who have not appeared outside of Facebook-based media do not get their own pages" is a reasonable policy without loopholes. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:52, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::That's the crux of this all, so if it gets people to shut up about this forever, please, for the love of God. Stuff that has appeared or been mentioned in other media will still get appropriate pages—nobody has ever argued against that. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:18, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::Agree with Riptide. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::::I think this is a terrible, terrible rule and an awful precedent, but it is at least honest and non-subjective. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:23, 4 March 2016 (EST)

So, that's the concensus. The rule is "GoBots and major associated characters who appear only on Facebook pages get the list treatment." The justification is that GoBots is a frequent source of arguments and the hope is a simple, unambiguous rule will curtail these arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:07, 5 March 2016 (EST)

I would like some clarification: once the master lists go up and many GoBot articles are deleted/redirected, what about the Renegade Rhetoric fiction sections on the pages which stay, e.g. [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]] or [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]]? It is my understanding that we are minimizing ''Challenge of the GoBots'' season 1 content to summaries, but what of "season 2" adventures? Can any of it go on the wiki? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 02:17, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:As I've been reading it, RR has been de-credentialed and will be purged, completely. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:01, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::I wasn't sure either, so I asked Chris up above in the ''Question about GoBots'' block, and he confirmed my understanding, which is this: '''For the characters who appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get a brief write-up with link to RR archive.''' So, Renegade Rhetoric adventures do count, but get written up in a truncated way. I've been meaning to get to everyone, but have been busy with school. When [[Puzzler]] got mentioned in [[High Noon]] I did a pass on him, which shows about the level I think was authorized for Renegade Rhetoric write-ups. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:40, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
Does ''Echoes and Fragments'' count as a piece of crossover fiction? Because that gives... like... ''every'' GoBot a sentence or two of "screen-time", which might throw a wrench in the plan. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:10, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:We've decided that the Facebook fiction in general does not "count" enough to give GoBots characters their own pages, unless they have appeared in non-Facebook-based fiction. We probably should give Puzzler his own page, but ehh. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:34, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::It's a strange place we find ourselves in. The original justification of not wikifying Renegade Rhetoric was that it's somehow technically not Transformers fiction. That went out the window with '''[[Echoes and Fragments]]''', so Chris [[User talk:Chris McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|basically said]] that the goal was to keep GoBots footprint to a minimum regardless of their appearances in unambiguously Transformers fiction. The new rule is that Facebook appearances don't count towards whether or not a character gets a page, because we don't like GoBots/they cause too many arguments. But if/when they show up elsewhere the Facebook stuff gets written up. So, I expect many more pages like Puzzler, where there's a one-sentence mention from some other fiction and then four or five paragraphs of Facebook stuff. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 12:50, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:See prior discussion on [[Talk:Echoes and Fragments]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

==TL;DR==
''[[GoBots]] (and related characters/ideas) who appear in non-Facebook Transformers crossovers get full write-ups, because that's how we handle all crossovers. GoBots who appear exclusively in FunPub Facebook pages (i.e. [[Ask Vector Prime]]), get no write-ups, because we don't like GoBots on the wiki / they cause too many arguments. GoBots who appear in both get full crossover write-ups, but only limited [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] write-ups because we consider Renegade Rhetoric to be non-Transformers fiction.''

== The current state of Shoutwiki and the IDW comic's impact on this discussion WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE IDW COMIC ==

So, with the Go-Bots comic and the current state of both of our sister wikis, I think it's time to re-examine our options. Now before this gets out of hand, I just want to clarify: I am NOT advocating for both of them to be folded into TFWiki.net at the time being. What I want is to look at what we have now and see how we can improve. Also spoilers for the Tom Scioli series.

So, first off, with the ShoutWiki bit:

For nearly a year, both of the wiki's have had very little activity. IDW Hasbro has had slightly more activity, but much of that has petered off recently, at least. Part of that, I have always felt, is due to a lack of good advertisement on TFWiki. It took, give or take, over half of a year for the GoBots and IDW Hasbro Wiki to receive any acknowledgement on our main page that wasn't the consistently changing "disambiguration" bit, and even then they're not particularly noticeable. Now, we could say this is due to a lack of interest, which for GoBots, I could have seen prior to the IDW comic, but I don't think that makes sense for the IDW Hasbro wiki. Additional issues include:

1. The mass amount of spambots and non-user editors. We have no control over ShoutWiki like we do with TFWiki. As such, spambots are still quite rampant in comparison, and IP address-based users are still active. This is undesirable for many reasons.

2. The problem of Wikia/Fandom. As we know, Gamepedia was recently bought out by Wikia/Fandom. Now, I won't pretend I have any idea how that works, but knowing how awful Fandom is today, I would worry about any possibility that ShoutWiki would suffer the same fate. And as we've seen with Mirage's posts on the Allspark Forums thread for the GoBots wiki, Fandom's current management is beyond screwed up.

On the comics front themselves (SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE COMIC FROM HERE ON OUT):

1. The comic connects them to the Transformers. As seen in the end of issues, the GoBots are depicted as the creators of the Transformers, connecting them once more. Now, when even the comic produced by Hasbro's main go-to comic company, written by someone not too heavily involved in the fandom, connects them to the Transformers, it's worth re-examining.

2. The comic's legal info. Now, a big part of the position against putting them on the Wiki is that it seemed that Hasbro was unwilling to use the GoBots beyond slight homages. Possible reasons for this include the idea that Hasbro only owns the names, and that other parts are still owned by Bandai and Warner Bros. Now, the indicia for the Go-Bots comic only has Hasbro listed in the legal bit. The comic uses characters from the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, and everyone is drawn faithfully to the Bandai toys. It would seem that Hasbro is much more confident on their ownership of the characters than they were 2-3 years ago.

Now, to examine our options:

1. We fold these wikis into ours. Again, I am NOT advocating for this. That being said, gained advantages include: better prevention of spambots; being on this wiki, my hypothesis is that there would be a lot more attraction to create these articles than there are now for the two out of the way ones; and we wouldn't have someone selling off out wiki to a ponzi scheme disguised as a "community".

2. We create new wikis we own ourselves. Personally, I'm all for that, but there are several problems. A lot of the people involved with the set up of this wiki aren't really around anymore or are inactive. There aren't very many beyond abates that I can think of who have good backgrounds in the more technical side of stuff, but I could be forgetting some. Additionally, there would be more money to pay to have 3 sites up, and I understand that is a lot to ask for. Additionally, without better advertising, we'd run into the same problem we haven now. There might be other stuff but again, I'm no tech wizard.

3. We get better advertising for our two Shoutwiki and hope for the best. Probably the easiest of the three options, and the least costly/headache inducing. The only problem is still the spambots and the chance that Wikia will buy ShoutWiki out.

In any case, I wanted to bring this stuff up after talking with several friends about the states of our 2 sister wikis; this is not me trying to reopen old wounds. I hope that is clear. If I am unclear about anything I am willing to clarify-been busy with final exams for school which is why I'm only now getting to this after having wanted to bring it up for a while, and it's hard to focus during this crunch. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

== Is the sister Wiki still a thing? ==

Just spend a day or two editing the Gobot wiki before I stumbled on this discussion... is the sister wiki still an ongoing concern or has it been abandoned by the admins? Part of me wants to do much, much more as the Gobots side of the thing really needs some work but I don't want to waste time on it (well, beyond that any wiki editing is a waste of time) if it's wound down.

[[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 09:49, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:We still link to it on our main page here. It's just that there simply hasn't much interest in it as of late. Most of the activity was brought on in response to Fun Pub's Renegade Rhetoric generating a renewed interest in GoBots, but which has since died down. There was the IDW GoBots mini-series that sparked a new interest, but that's wound down since too. GoBots just doesn't have the fire and staying power to keep most people's interest in it perpetually ongoing, but that doesn't mean we've abandoned GBWiki. If you're interested in working on it, then by all means have at it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:43, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:It's worth remembering that the people currently running TFWiki didn't create it--they found a dilapidated Transformers wiki in the wild, and nursed it to health, until it became the powerhouse it is today. Even if the people currently there have lost interest, there's always a chance that your work could give it the second wind it needs to become a vital resource. --[[User:Wack'd|Wack'd]] ([[User talk:Wack'd|talk]]) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
::As long as it's not going to somehow expire in a puff of 404s in a week's time (I have no idea how hosting of Wikias works) I'm more than happy chugging away, just didn't want to bother if I'd missed something. TVM guys [[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 12:42, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

==Revisiting our organizational schema==
Over the last six years or so, we have had a steady influx of what I am going to call "outside" content that is only tangentially relevant to the ''Transformers'' franchise as a whole—''MASK'', ''Micronauts'', ''Visionaries'', ''Star Trek'', ''Ghostbusters'', ''Terminator'', ''Back to the Future'', and two ''My Little Pony'' crossovers with a possible third volume on the way. It is clear that Hasbro and its licensees are open to the idea of multiple franchises and outside properties coexisting with the Transformers, and our wiki policy up to this point has generally been amenable to the idea of treating these characters the way we would any other character: an individual wiki article that documents their characterization and their role in any given story, regardless of how major or minor that role is. (See also: [[Slywire]], [[Arex (Star Trek)|Arex]], [[Killerwatt]], [[Doctor Hooves]], etc.)

There is one exception to the way that we treat these crossover characters: due to the controversies surrounding the "Renegade Rhetoric" era, we currently do not give the majority of [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]]s and [[Renegade]]s their own individual pages, and have currently amalgamated the vast majority of these redirects onto a single table.

It is true that our current organizational schema regarding the GoBots was born out of a sense of frustration regarding the ongoing "wiki-gaming" situation at the time regarding Renegade Rhetoric and Ask Vector Prime. However, with every new IDW crossover or Collaborative toy--and ''especially'' given the recent [[Go-Bots (comic)|Go-Bots]] comic, which was not a strict crossover, but very strongly implied a connection between the GoBots and the Cybertronian race--the way that we handle GoBot coverage on the wiki feels increasingly unhelpful and antiquated. Now that we've had five years of constant crossovers and also time to look back on our decisions with a cooler head, I am proposing that we shift back to our pre-"Renegade Rhetoric"-era method of covering these characters by giving them their own individual pages and treating them the way we would any other faction.

I am open to discussion as to whether or not we should include "Renegade Rhetoric" writeups, or even possibly a fiction writeup regarding their activities in the Scioli series--though I will remind users that we do have the GBwiki established already as a way to absorb out-of-universe . However, I feel that "Echoes and Fragments" should absolutely be covered on their respective pages, the way we'd cover any IDW crossover. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:06, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Yes. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm ambivalent as, like you said, the fact these characters are mentioned on the wiki at all ''is'' because of that aforementioned wiki-gaming, and I'm not convinced the pages would be worth much. I wouldn't fight it, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:25, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Our system is just fine as-is and I see no reason to change it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::What, if anything, distinguishes GoBots that makes the Guardians and Renegades unavailble for articles, but the near 100 ponies eligible? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:43, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::There wasn't a decade of people ignoring and gaslighting our judgments, cheating the wiki's criteria, and personally insulting anyone who tried to stop them over My Little Pony. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:50, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::All of that is addressed in the post. The way it is now, we are actively limiting information due to fights from half a decade ago. If and/or when there is an IDW comic crossing over the two, we'll have to drop the facade, one that's already being called into question. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::So let's wait for the crossover and change our system "if and/or when" it ever happens. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Would "Gobots pages that would have more than just a single Renegade Rhetoric section can exist, while those that wouldn't stay in list hell until such time as they would" be an acceptable compromise here? That would pages that exist that have good reason to, without reinstating wiki-gaming from five years ago. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:34, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:(There's probably a case to be made for Echoes and Fragments being an exception, since it's essentially a full-on prose story rather than just "someone asked cy-kill if knew bob the go-bot and he said yes", but i'm not gonna argue that one too heavily) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

TFWiki's current policy towards GoBots reflects the franchise's status in 2004 - 2007, when it was seen as an external brand like My Little Pony or Starriors. Gobots were a separate species from a parallel universe with a different, partially organic physiology. But beginning in 2010 we saw the first hints of change as the Allspark Almanac 2 revealed that in some Alternate Universes, Gobots characters simply ''were'' Transformers. By 2015-2016 official publications revealed that they were just a highly divergent version of the Transformer species and started presenting new stories featuring them, generated by Hasbro and representing the brand in this new shared context.

Things '''changed.''' I'm not saying that we necessarily have to alter our policy, but we do have to acknowledge that the status of GoBots relative to Transformers has changed. If we do choose to integrate it any further into the wiki it will ''not'' be because the people demanding it all those years ago were "right," because the brand ''as it existed at that time'' did not warrant inclusion.

I have wrestled with this one and come down on either side but, for me, this is the critical factor:
'''The Evil One''' from GoBots is '''the Fallen'''. Same dude. Multiversal singularity. They are Transformers, full stop. They merit inclusion.

(I'm also going to be a jerk and say the events of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' should ''not'' be covered by the wiki, just because I'm a difficult asshole. All of the important stuff from the cartoon was represented in Renegade Rhetoric anyway.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:16, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm of the opinion that, bare minimum, the Scioli series should be covered here in full. The final issue makes it clear that the series *is* a Transformers story, and as fiction that was designed to tie in with Transformers from the start, it should be integrated by the same logic as post-Revolution Hasbroverse (which, I remind you, was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Reintegration of Hasbroverse wiki content|unanimously agreed upon like a week ago]]). -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::Doing ''that'' would require pages for all of the characters. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:30, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots

2021-08-02T03:16:11Z

Derik: /* Revisiting our organizational schema */ No on asked for your goddamn opinion Derik.

= GoBots on this wiki=
''All the key discussions over the years about GoBots, and their place on the wiki.''

==2009==
===Executive Summary===
''A huge discussion about how much GoBots is appropriate, and why. After 4 months of discussion, a compromise that everyone can agree on, starting a GoBots sister wiki on the same server with the same code, is reached.''

====Canon====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Gobots]] franchise page.}}

A note should be said in the article about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Initial kick-off====
{{note|This conversation, and all others unless explicitly noted, originally took place on [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]].}}
This idea is getting some traction over on the Tonka GoBots page, so I thought I'd replicate the discussion here. It's certainly a big enough change that it should get broad exposure. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

A note should be said in the [GoBots] [[GoBots|article]] about canon. What is canon? I'm guessing it is like G.I. Joe: the whole universe is canon, but only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction is {{SITENAME}}-noteworthy. Or is it like crossovers such as Star Wars: only the bits that appear in Transformers fiction are canon. Or (I don't think so) does Hasbro's purchase of them retroactively drag everything in, cartoon and all, as a "continuity family"? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:07, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Personally, I think that the GoBots should be covered here IN FULL.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 00:19, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
::It is indeed like G.I. Joe or Death's Head, where the only stories that count for the purposes of our wiki are the ones that include Transformers.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:20, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm not sure I agree. The Gobots cartoon has effectively been subsumed, in whole, into the Transformers mythos. This is a fundamentally different case than Death's Head, who left the Transformers multiverse explicitly, or G.I. Joe, which has implicitly diverged. Due to the legalities surrounding GoBots, the only licensed future stories set in the Gobots multiverse will be Transformers stories. We could certainly choose to catalog the 65 episodes and one movie of Gobots as effectively another Transformers continuity family, which it basically is. I'm not sure what the downside would be to that, other than it'll take a while for it to be up to the wiki's usual standards. I'd be happy enough to go through and start with character pages and episode guides though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:10, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And just to throw it out there for reference, [http://counter-x.net/gobots/ Counter-X] is probably our best source for GoBots research on the entire interwebs. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:31, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::I, uh, I'm not sure that really fits the TF Wiki's "mission statement." I mean, this is a Transformers wiki. We shouldn't start making ourselves cover entire other properties just because there was a crossover. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Depth of coverage?====
As much as I'd fap to the idea of having full-blown GoBots coverage on this wiki, I'd just like to get straight how ''deep'' we'd go with the coverage. Would we cover just the cartoon? Would we also cover the Robo Machine comics published in the UK? Would we do articles for each character along with complete toy write ups? Just curious. I wouldn't mind slogging through the cartoons myself, or maybe even calling dibs on the Rock Lords movie, but I'd just like to know exactly ''how much'' GoBots we'd be willing to cover.
:Also, would we be able to cover the toys, or just the fiction? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:47, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
::I think that we'd only cover the part of GoBots that are canon for Transformers. That'd be the cartoon, basically. IMO, the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview. Things like Machine-Robo and associated fiction have not been brought into the Transformers canon and pretty much cannot be officially, legally, brought in. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Machine-Robo etc would probably fall under the same classification as Diaclone and Microchange, ie general mention but little detail. I am confused by your statement that "the toys (as something owned by Bandai) are outside of that purview." Taking that statement at face value the original Jetfire, Roadbuster and Whirl toys shouldn't be here either. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Not at all. Those toys were all released as Transformers. Other Takatoku and Bandai toys wouldn't be fair game, and aren't. The reason that the GoBots CARTOON can be on this wiki is that it was effectively bought by Hasbro when they acquired Tonka, and then integrated into the Transformers universe by licensed stories like Withered Hope. There has been no comparable action regarding GoBot toys. They were licensed to Tonka by Bandai. That license has long since expired. Hasbro has no claim on those toys, and there has never been any attempt to integrate the toys into the Transformers multiverse. At least, that's the way I see it. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:32, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Okay, now I understand your point. For the other side, it seems to me that the toys are the source for the cartoon; if one is fair game for this wiki so is the other. Since this site is not part of Hasbro, the licensing is irrelevant. That is, while Hasbro can't use the toys; we (as archivists) are free to use them. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:19, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====Some initial chime-ins====

If we can do it up to our usual standards, I'm for it. I just think it's a ''metric assload'' of material to be adding.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:00, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hey, we've all got ''plenty'' of time. What's one more metric assload? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:06, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::I welcome the challenge. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:35, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could definitely help out. (Dibs on swooping in and taking care of any spelling or punctuation mistakes.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a little indecisive - the entire point of Withered Hope, etc. was that the GoBots exist OUTSIDE of the TF universe. While a given number of GoBots have since moved in, until further notice, it's unclear how many GoBots actually have integrated into the larger TF milieu. Now, if someone from Hasbro said, even in passing, that the GoBots stories are now considered part of the TF multiverse, I'd be all for it. Maybe it's something to think about for BC or the next Q&A. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::A while back there was a discussion where it was said that nothing that was once canon can be ''removed'' from canon later on, even by Hasbro. Is the reverse also true, can a block of fiction be retroactively ''added'' to canon that wasn't canon at the time? I'm thinking not really. I'm thinking only the glimpses of the GoBots universe in TF fiction belong. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::They're not really reciprocal arguments. Imagine this scenario: Hasbro kills off G2 and is soured on Transformers. They let their new acquisition, Kenner, start their own brand of Transforming robots, called Beast Wars, and they don't use the Transformers name in conjunction with it at all. No mention of Cybertron. No character named Megatron - call him T-Wrecks. It'd effectively be a completely different toyline and cartoon, not 'canon' for Transformers. The whole first season happens, more or less as we saw but without Starscream or the few mentions of past continuity. It's a big hit, so Hasbro decides to add the Transformers logo to the Beast Wars packaging. Then the second season starts up, and lo and behold, they make a big plot point out of The Ark, and the Predacons being descended from Decepticons. They would have changed the status of the S1 stories from non-canon to canon for Transformers.
::::::Now imagine that it wasn't until Beast Machines that this transition happened. Different logo, different writers, but a continuity of characters and ideas. It'd STILL retroactively pull all of the Beast Wars into Transformers canon. So, sure, stories can be retroactively made canon. Hell, what about this scenario - [[Alignment]] is republished by IDW, under the Transformers banner. Boom - non-canon becomes canon, just like that.
::::::It's possible, is all I'm saying. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:25, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's totally feasible, I'm just not sure it's actually HAPPENED with the GoBots material yet. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 13:41, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah, my thought too. I don't really have a problem per se with the idea, it's just that I don't think GoBots ''is'' officially Transformers canon as a whole; just some individual characters that have shown up. Kind of like how various Marvel characters have been shown to be a part of canon, but we don't go and then write up the entire universe they hail from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But... but... when I was a kid GoBots were decidedly ''not'' Transformers. Back in the '80's that was kind of a big deal. Not a logical argument, I know. If Alignment were published as a Transformers story, sure it would be canon. If the GoBots cartoon were published as a Transformers story it would be canon. The Beast Wars example is interesting. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:49, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though?====

Yeah. Honestly, I don't know about this... at least, not ''now''. There's still a lot of TF stuff that needs deeper exploration and suchlike, including Club materials. I'd think a focus on those things before we delve deep into GoBots' non-TF-direct stuff would be in order. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:I share this thought. I think if people have enough time to be writing up a bunch of GoBot stuff, surely it's better spent (for now, at least) on writing up the TF stuff we already know we need? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::There is no need to have articles here for Defendor, Destroyer, Tank, Fytor, Hans-Cuff, Jeeper Creeper, Wrexx, Pincer, Pumper, Vamp, Creepy, and probably 99.1% of all other GoBot characters and story events. We have the e-Hobby team, Withered Hope, the various Crashers and Cy-Kills and a few other circa-Dreamwave easter eggs, because they actually ''existed'' in some form in the TF multiverse. Trying to add in every other character that never did anything and doesn't matter just because we can would be about as fruitful and necessary as adding in every other G.I.Joe character ever that also never appeared here. That Eskimo Quinn dude could always use another write-up, right? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 17:51, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Im free, I'll do the GoBots. --[[Special:Contributions/206.253.51.107|206.253.51.107]] 21:14, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I'm not sure how the GoBots non-TF backstory is any more canon to TFs than the entirety of GI Joe, or Death's Head's other stories, or Spiderman comics, or X-Men, or the Incredible Hulk, or... -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 22:07, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Leaving the above joking around aside, the difference between GoBots and the other crossovers is that GoBots is tending towards convergence, where as all the other cases listed are tending towards divergence. Gobots has been, de facto, merged into the Transformers line. It started with Transformers names and lines named GoBots. Then GoBots names and likenesses started to show up, again and again. Then toys were made to represent specific GoBots. Stories were published involving GoBots, not just as new Transformers, but as GoBonaughts '''from their cartoon continuity''' entering the realms of Transformers.
::::This is a fundamentally different situation from the other crossovers. Death's Head started out in Transformers (leaving High Noon Tex aside) but then left for another multiverse. G.I. Joe started out in the same multiverse, really, but has slowly but surely diverged to the point where future crossovers cannot exist as a part of the main lines. The Marvel stuff, again, very briefly started out in the same multiverse (rather, the TF comic briefly started out in the Marvel universe before diverging.)
::::That's the real underlying reason. GoBots are being absorbed into Transformers, literally (by the acquisition of Tonka) and figuratively (as seen in Withered Hopes.) That GoBots are about a civil war between shapechanging robots (well, cyborgs, but then, Beast Wars were cyborgs too) means that it works very well thematically. That all future official GoBots stories will come from Hasbro or its licensees makes it work on a practical level. It's a finite amount of non-Transformers-branded story to catalog, a mere 65 episodes, 1 movie and some 100 characters of note. If we assume maybe 2 extra characters or devices of interest per episode, that's about 300 articles. With the 10,000 we already have, that's hardly a daunting task. Heck, it even benefits Hasbro. It gives them easier access to the information and trademarks that they've already acquired, and thus lets them better protect their intellectual property.
::::Basically, that means that we CAN choose to catalog GoBots. The precedent is there in the form of the [[Beastformers]]. That doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD, but we have the option. I for one would like to exercise that option, but only if enough people think it's a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:52, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvel Continutiy side-discussion=====

::::All of Marvel 616 is totally contained within the IDW G1 continuity! Wolverine sure didn't warp from that reality to his own later on. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:39, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wolverine appears in three solo titles, four team books, and a spattering of guest appearances every month. If there isn't SOME kind of reality warping that helps him get around, I'd be surprised. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:24, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::For me, it's like kinda minor continuity within the 616 reality, since there are too many contradictory. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 23:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights =====

How much of GoBots Hasbro owns, I thought, was subject to debate. Heck, Sipher and Trent go out of their way to not mention anybody in Withered Hope that either didn't have a Hasbro-owned name or wasn't based on a Transformers figure. That's why we have "Doctor B" instead of Doctor Braxus, why they name Leader One and not Cykill, and why they describe Turbo but do not name him. This indicates that the GoBots cartoon, as a whole, is not something that the "Withered Hope" story itself declares is open to us.
Hasbro owns Tonka... but does that really mean they now own the CotGB cartoon? They may just own some trademarks and some likenesses. That whole situation is kind of an intellectual property clusterfuck. Bandai owns the toys, Hanna Barbara may still retain rights to portions of the show, and Hasbro probably owns what little remains. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:25, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
:That's a really good point. I got the impression from the IDW editors that it's all on the table, but then it hasn't come up much in my books (yet) so that hasn't been put to the test. Sipher, could you shed some light on the process? Did you restrict your use of terms because of a Hasbro missive, or was that you being proactively cautious? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:46, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
::Legally it could be an abandoned copyright. Transformers has spent the last several years walking along the train tracks to go poke it with a stick in increasingly invasive ways... and it (or whoever owns it) has not reacted as we've had Transformers toys released that ''are'' Go-Bots characters, featured them in increasingly-large roles in Transformers stories, slowly transitioning to full-on (albeit minor) characters instead of cameos, taken measures to lock out their copyrights... and finally openly acknowledging "yes, we consider Go-Bots part of our multiverse, and intend to use them." It's not even a separate universe-- the rock lords stuff is showing up in the same universe as Cybertron. (In Multiple universes, right?)
::Whoever owns Go-Bots seems to have just given up. Go-Bots was never popular enough for a DVD set, even during the Maximum Nostalgia period. And with Hasbro owning their trademarks-- not just character names but the '''name of the damn line''' and '''species'''-- it's functionally impossible for them to market Go-Bots as a nostalgia property. When they didn't bring Machine Rescue Robo over to the U.S., the last real hope of a revival or relaunch died. (and most fundamentally... ''He-Man'' and ''Thunercats'' died. If they can't sustain revivals, Go-Bots doesn't stand a chance. The perception that all nostalgia properties are money-mines seems to have finally died out.) They just... what are they going to ever ''do'' with the part they own? Convention-exclusive comics that can't even be called "Go-Bots," it'd have to be "Guardians vs. Renegades" or "Challenge of the Guard-Bots"?
::A fine distinction... TF does '''not''' own the Go-Bots fiction-- that's {{c}} whoever owns it separately from the property. (This might be why [[Dead End (Armada)]] couldn't be called "Gobotron," Hasbro owns Go-Bots which is enough to prevent Tonka from using "Gobotron" as a replacement name, but AFAIK the name itself comes from the fiction and wasn't a trademark Hasbro acquired-- it's owned by Warner Bros., and a handful of other fiction-producers who did books and records.)
::In theory all the Go-Bots we're getting is a new universe that may ''resemble'' some past incarnation, but is actually based on the cardback bios... or something. (Which I don't ''think'' we actually have the rights to either... or maybe as part of the packaging they ''were'' part of the rights Kenner owned-- I dunno.)
::(Someone who knows more than I do about Go-Bots could probably figure out better than I who owns what part of the brand, which has been sawed up and redistributed like one of Dexter Morgan's victims.)
::'''Critical point:''' The 'abandoned copyright' thing I said above? It's a ''theoretical'' classification. No one ''relies'' on that, ever. It's even ''worse'' than Fair use. It is ''incredibly hard'' to abandon a copyright simply through neglect-- it basically requires an explicit declaration by all owners that they choose to do so, so all of the above theoretical musings are just that-- legal theory, and the law operates differently in a vacuum than it does in the real world.
::This would make a good question to ask in our Hasbro Q&A. Not who owns Go-Bots... they won't answer that because it's too legally fraught. Ask a simple question like "we know you got the trademarks via Kenner... does that include the cardback bios?" (Because I'd like to be able to fill out the [[Narly|Narliphant]] page using its go-bots bio.)
::'''Hypothetical aside'''-- remember the "Duck Dodgers meets the Green Lantern Corps" episode a few years ago? I'm not '''entirely''' sure, but I ''think'' WB could have had him meet the Go-Bots. Drop him into the full-on Hanna Barbera cartoon, using the names under a grandfather clause like Captain Marvel. ...they just have no '''reason''' to-- the trademarks effectively lock out their ability to create a new cartoon, sell toys, etc etc etc. I'm just pointing out how screwed up the rights are. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Interesting musings. The missing piece, though, is what kind of agreements Tonka structured with Hanna-Barbara, which have since passed to Hasbro and Warner Brothers, respectively. It's well known that Hasbro was savvy-enough to put legal agreements in place that ensured that new elements introduced in Transformers fiction continued to belong to Hasbro. Hence the manoeuvrings of Marvel with characters like Circuit Breaker and Death's Head. I don't know how Tonka structured their agreements, but that'll have a huge impact on where the rights stand now. I'm not sure, thought, that the failure to use 'Gobotron' for Dead-End had anything to do with legal wrangling.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
::::[[Image:Gobots copyright.png]]
::::Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I'm just rather interested in the whole situation. I went and dug up the posted copyright notice for GoBots. Note that the actual episodes ARE indeed copyright Hanna-Barbera. On the other hand, GoBot names, characters and property is definitely copyright Tonka corp. So, the episodes themselves may not be kosher. The characters, and especially the character names, should be fair game.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:36, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::If we do come to the conclusion that the GoBots cartoon is ''fair game'' for us, I think we should go ahead and do it. As to why someone would "waste their time" on GoBots stuff when they have regular TF stuff they could write about, well, a few reasons. First, they might have access to the GoBots episodes but not a lot of TF stuff. Second, they might decide a lot of people would be willing to write TF, but GoBots, not so many. Third, they might be more a fan of GoBots and use this as an "adoptive wiki" for the show instead of starting a brand new one just for the GoBots. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 03:40, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::Ok, so by that image Jim has established that GoBot names and most importantly '''characters''' are definately Hasbro's and the Toon epsisodes themselves are pretty certainly not. It seems the logical thing to do then would be to include GoBot characters in this wiki when they appear in TF material. Cover the characters personality and personal backstory in their main bio paragraphs at the top of of the page, as that IS their character. But leave the "Fiction" section for things that happen in TF stories or are atleast referenced there. That fits the way the material is owned AND the interests of the wiki. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Anonymous McBunchanumbers pretty much sums up how I feel about it. The GoBot characters and the GoBots property are Hasbro's now, but the cartoon isn't (and I wonder about the other ancillary stuff - there was a GoBots Magazine that I remember seeing as a kid, it was done by the same people who did the official He-Man Magazine, and that's without getting into the Machine Men stuff). Cover what Hasbro owns and has acknowledged owning, leave out what isn't available. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 08:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::ETA: The GoBots Magazine was published by a company that now is owned by Time Warner. So it looks like most, if not all, of the ancillary GoBots media is owned by TW. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I think the problem hinges on what we mean by official. Do we mean "owned by Hasbro/Tomy" or just "produced under license from Hasbro/Tomy". For TFs those are basically the same thing, for GBs they are two different things. The first would exclude all the toys and media from the classic GoBots, leaving only those appearances under the TFs banner. The second definition would include the toys and media as they were produced under license from Tonka or by Tonka under license from Bandai. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:27, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not exactly the same thing - while Hasbro always had the ability to make any derivative work they pleased from the G1 cartoon (hence the Marvel comic quickly adopting the cartoon models, and the various toys along the way - compare to He-Man, where Mattel can't touch any of the Filmation cartoon designs), they only acquired the cartoon itself in the past couple of years. I don't think they even own the actual BW, BM, RID and TFA ''cartoons'' now, and they certainly don't own the 2007 and 2009 movies. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::The Tick is a better example. There's the "base license," which includes all the character, setup and the story of the original 12 issues.
::::::::::This was the basis for the cartoon.
::::::::::When FOX went to make the live-action Tick, they licensed the base-license again-- the character, setup and original 12 issues-- and discoverered they did NOT have the rights to the characters that only appeared in the cartoon.
::::::::::This is like that, except that the "base license" is much smaller-- the characters, names, likenesses and (presumably) their cardback bios. (Possibly also a series bible.) No fiction at all.
::::::::::And that's assuming that Hasbro even owns all of that... I thought it was just the Trademarks, but the increased willingness to reference Go-Bots material in recent years, beyond the "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" level would seem to indicate that Hasbro believes they have a right to the characters, not just the trademarks. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What Derik said, Khajidha. Basically, this wiki covers things officially Transformers. That includes things owned by Hasbro and things made under license from Hasbro. There is no transitive property for things now owned by Hasbro but made under license from the previous owner. Though, Derik, I'll point out that we don't actually KNOW the Ts & Cs of the GoBots license. It's possible that Tonka had even more draconian license terms than Hasbro. The characters, names and property is just about the most conservative case possible. Which, as 'sharecroppers' on Hasbro's farm, is probably the safest position for us to take, barring new information.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====The G.I. Joe Counter-Example=====

The thing is, G.I. Joe is also owned by Hasbro. What makes GoBots different from Joe? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:See my above argument starting with "Leaving the above joking around aside." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:In the future any GoBots appearances are likely to be under a TF banner. They are not likely to carry their own franchise again. GIJoe is likely to continue making many appearances apart from TFs. TF/Joe stories are going to be rare, TF/GB stories are going to be the norm. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:48, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Canon or not-canon=====

So that just means Hasbro owns the characters, names, etc. like they own G.I. Joe. The way I see it, that says nothing of the TF canonicity of those things. TF canon is TF fiction. The characters, names, etc. are not TF fiction. As the characters are used in TF fiction, they get into canon. What we need is a TF profile book with all of them in there. It shouldn't really matter to us who owns what. We cover Spider-Man's comic appearance and Roadbuster's toy because they were in TF fiction. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Hasbro ownership lays the foundation for POSSIBLE inclusion. It was further stories that pulled the GoBots multiverse into the Transformers multiverse.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Possible inclusion does not equal actual inclusion - let's say Hasbro made a TF of one of the Air Raiders vehicles - would that warrant adding the Air Raiders as a concept to the Wiki? Does the Allspark Almanac mentioning the existence of the Darkling Lords of Prysmos require us to do a full entry on the Visionaries universe? Right now, we limit our coverage of "Darkling Lords of Prysmos" to "There are these dudes called the Darkling Lords and they live somewhere called Prysmos." Even though we all know WHO they actually are and WHY they matter, it's not immediately relevant to TF fiction. If Leoric or whoever were to show up in a future TF story, we'd do a page for him, but not necessarily for Merklynn or any of the other Visionaries characters, unless they appear in the story too. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Agreed, 100%. However, for reasons sketched out above, I feel that criteria HAS been hit for GoBots. A mere throw-away reference is one thing. A crossover is more, but still not enough. A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Eh. Even if that's true, I still kind of think it's a waste of time. Write up whatever GoBot characters/items and referenced stories show up in TF fiction, and that's it. I really don't see why we need any more than that, as that's all that is required to be informed about ''Transformers'' fiction, and that's ultimately what we're here for. A full-on GoBot wiki is a nice idea, but... really not our purview. Maybe if folks wanted to start a sister wiki instead? *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Damnit, Jeysie, way to reply while I was replying! Withered Hope brings the GoBots into the TF canon, but it does so by explicitly saying they exist ''outside'' that canon - they're unknown to the Transtechs (whose entire POINT is that they know everything), etc. As it stands, I think the current setup is an adequate compromise. We cover the GoBots characters/concepts that have appeared in TF fiction, but the rest are beyond our purview until such a point as something happens to integrate the two franchises (which I figure will happen, eventually (current most likely scenario in my mind: Someone at IDW introduces GoBotron, full of GoBots, and then promptly blows it up/has Unicron eat it/some other puerile "joke." Second most likely: We finally get a sequel to "Withered Hope" that somehow merges the realities - or retcons that there IS a variant TF universe where the GB stuff happened, we've just never seen it until now.) Or eventually Hasbro just does something akin to the Matt Trakker figure from the Joe line, where it's mentioned in passing that "Oh yeah, MASK was part of the Joe universe all along, we're just now connecting the dots." At that point, I'd be totally cool with it. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 19:02, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There's a certain driving frustration behind this (one which I share,) the Go-Bots aren't ever gonna get a proper wiki, and the cartoon will never be cataloged unless it's done here.
::::...yet you could say the same of G.I. Joe, and no one's suggesting we go back and start adding every G.I. Joe comic, cartoon, etc.
::::The question unique to GoBots is the possibility that they have been, essentially, "folded into" the Transformers property to a degree greater than Inhumanoids (a dead property which TF references, but which remains separate.) But we don't know that that's happened, that it legally ''can'' happen, and what part(s) of GoBots TF Hasbro does own.
::::And even if we knew that... it does ''not'' automatically follow that we'd treat it as part of the TF Franchise for documentary purposes. Or that we wouldn't. There'd have to be a discussion about it.
::::The TF Multiverse (Which you could really call the Hasbro Brands Multiverse, incorporating TF, Joe, Jem, Visionaries etc...) is the 5th largest fictional shared-universe every created. (And it keeps gobbling up other franchises-- G.I. Joe has annexed MASK and Action Man in recent years.) There has to be a sane limit on how far outside the Transformers franchise you 'follow' information... otherwise we end up documenting C.O.P.S. episodes. And of the 4 fictional multiverses larger than TF... TF has crossed over with 2 of them! (Marvel and Star Wars.) And Marvel has crossed over with the other two. (DC and Star Trek.)
::::So... yeah. Knowing our limits is important. (I'm not even opposed to documenting Go-Bots... they're certainly closer to TF than anything else... but I'd want to have a serious discussion of the implications first.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:10, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Marvelverse side-discussion redux=====

Hell, given that Marvel ''published'' a SW comic for ten years or so, you could argue that Marvel and SW are part of the SAME multiverse. [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 19:20, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:Not even all Marvel's wholly-owned stories are in the same multiverse (I'm serious - Marvel have multiple multiverses. Thank you Mark Greunwald) - the New Universe in particular is explicitly in a separate multiverse which works by slightly different laws. The "big" Marvel/DC stories (Marvel vs. DC, Amalgam and JLA/Avengers) worked on a similar principle, although some of the smaller (Spider-Man/Batman, etc - along with Image crossovers like Spider-Man/Badrock. Again not joking on that one) crossovers just played the "imagine they lived in the same universe" game. [New Avengers/Transformers was an example of the latter].
:Marvel's most significant overlap on that front is actually with ''Doctor Who'' - besides Death's Head, who met the Seventh Doctor at least three times, there's been several references to characters meeting The Doctor, and a Doctor Who Magazine (published by Marvel UK at the time) comic story which included a multiverse-spanning splash page included the "Spider-Man recognises the Burglar" panel from ''Amazing Fantasy'' #15. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:42, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, one of the Access minis clarified that sometimes universes (even between multiverses) simply collide and temporarily overlap, or a character crosses from one to another. (Crossover, present-overlap, full-history-overlap, amalgamation.) The first 3 just... ''happen'', naturally, and usually sort themselves out, though it's Access's job to help unsnarl them. (It's a bit like icebergs colliding. In a low-speed collision, there's some mashing-effect on the border, but they'll separate themselves out eventually... more or less.)
::And in fairness to Grunewald... his multiple-multiverses thing seems more like a recognition of the fact "it's harder to cross from some realities than others." Earth 616 does not "border" the DCU in the same way it borders Earth-712 (Squadron Supreme's Earth.) In both Earth-616 and 712, there are Skrulls, a Sorcerer Supreme etc etc etc... the larger metaphysical "structure" of the universe is the same, regardless of the surface expression. But in the DCU (and the New Universe) they are fundamentally different.
::The reality which has emerged is that while a Multiverse may have a certain fixed scope (1,000,000+ Earths in the Marvel Multiverse, 52 in the DC, 15,000,000,000,000,000 in the TF Multiverse) a universe can belong to more than 1 multiverse at a time-- like sitting in the overlap area of a venn diagram. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:06, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, the robot (Cyril?) who answered the letters page in the Marvel UK SW comics showed up in Robo-Capers --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:27, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

:::There ARE multiple singularities in the MMverse. Stuff like the Living Tribunal, Otherworld, etc. They're just above it all/extradimensional locations/non-hostile. Galactus and even (most of?) the abstracts '''aren't''' (and the abstracts don't actually interact anyway, they use intrauniveral things called m-bodies to act for them). [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 22:34, 27 October 2009 (EDT)

=====Multiverse side-discussion=====

Buuuuut then we get into multiverse vs. omniverse, which I ''think'' we agreed some time back to avoid for the sanity of the wiki.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:43, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:DC and Marvel both lack an Axiom Nexus for a reason. They desperately want to avoid dealing with this.
:No sane Multiverse has an Axiom Nexus. Hub realities like this are almost ''always'' confined to micro-fiction dealing with the Omniverse... because in a large functioning multiverse, they create incredible long-term headaches.
:I '''have''' to believe there's a sticky-note in Marvel's Editor-in-chief's office saying "Don't let anyone destroy the TVA," because it's their ''only'' multiversal singularity, and they've (somehow) managed to avoid screwing it up-- despite employing writers and editors that don't understand their own Multiverse. '''Example:''' The supervillain behind ''Avengers: Disasembled'' was Steve Rogers. Yes, even on Earth-616, it's just that no one ever figured it out here. ''Oopsie!'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:11, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::Derik, I gotta ask, you being you, how did you arrive at 15 quadrillion universes for Transformers? The highest number we saw was in the DW Armada comic at about 76 million. Even given that they found Optimus in a random universe, the expectation would be that they'd have to search about half of the realities to find him, which puts the figure at around 152 million. Granted, that's not a hard and fast figure, but with numbers that large (and the assumption that each reality was as likely as the next to contain their universe's Optimus Prime), it's likely to be close.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:03, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::{{quote|Do you know that there are more than fifteen quadrillion concurrent universes? It's true!|[[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]], "[[Games of Deception]]"}}
:::I arrived at it by remember a direct and explicit quite by someone who's actually a traveler from outside the Transformers multiverse, and thus in an even better position to know the length and breadth of it than the poor Transtechs, who think there are only 75 million, and are doubtless in for a Rude Surprise someday.
:::I suppose arguably you ''could'' say the Hasbro Brand Megaverse is 15Q, and the TF Multiverse is 75M... but that would require making a delineation between multiverse and megaverse that, while fairly clear in regard to other fictions and whose structures TF mirrors, is not explicitly laid out in TF fiction itself. (A Multiverse is defined by a touchstone that exists in all realities. A M'Kran Crystal, an 11th-dimensional snowflake, a "Cybertron, stable axis of the Multiverse...")
:::And of course, one is never entirely sure... was Bug Bite aware of the existence of negative-polarity universes?
:::(I tend to think that the Transtechs are simply vastly underestimating the size of the multiverse-- Bug Bite seemed to have a fair idea how the TF Multiverse worked, and there was some in-continuity reason why the Transtechs underestimating things make sense I'm currently blanking on. So assume there are 15Q, possibly 30Q universes with Cybertron in it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Ah. I knew there was a reason. Though, at the time I read it, I took his quote to mean that there were 15 quadrillion realities in the Omniverse. One point of contention - the trantechs cataloged about 16 million realities. The 76 million figure listed on the web site comes from backtracking from the Armadaverse. And given that there was an episode of GoBots, "Transfer Point", where the guardians traveled to a universe where Guardians were evil and Renegades good, I think Bug Bite is probably well aware of negative polarity universes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:39, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah, '''thank you''', yes, the Transtechs being aware of fewer realities than demonstrably exist in the Armada comic was the reason I think they've got their heads up their afts.
::::::(Splitting... this section is far too long to not be sub-divided.) The number discrepancy between the Techs' catalog and the Armada search is not intentional. Frankly, "Worlds Collide" was so fucking forgettable, well, we forgot that bit of it. Had we remembered, the number stated in WH would have been far, far, far higher than Armada's. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:01, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::And 15 quadrillion cannot be the number of universes in the Omniverse, because ''by definition'' the Omniverse contains everything ever, and Heinlen wrote about an Omniverse with 10.3 Octillion universes. The 15 quadrillion can be a Megaverse which Bug Bite has mistaken for the whole of the Omniverse, but not the thing itself. (The Heinlen Omniverse model is the largest AFAIK, and it shows up a lot in fringe fiction dabbling with the Omniverse. It pretty much ''has'' to have been used by Marvel or someone Marvel's crossed over with at some point.)
:::::And good point about the negative universe. Bug Bite may have indeed been referring to a Megaverse with his number-- a "local group" in astronomical terms, which means that number would include realities not part of the TF Multiverse. But that really just means we have no idea how big the TF Multiverse ''is''. If 15Q is the containing set, the minimum set is 75M, and the group who's ''supposed to know what's going on'' only thinks there's 16M.
:::::''*shrug*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:00, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::15 Quadrillion ''concurrent'' universes doesn't necessarily preclude 10.3 octillion TOTAL universes. Concurrent just means "existing at the same time." We know that a couple million in the TF multiverse *alone* have come to an end. Of the 10.3 octillion total, how many have ended? How many are yet to come into existence? How many exist for seconds, minutes, moments, and are gone? If Forest is to be believed, the Fallen creates those ''all the fucking time.'' They exist, then they don't, like someone save-scumming a video game. Just the actions of multiversal singularities who exist and act nonlinearly would suggest that there'd be a shitfuckton of these hi-then-die little timestreams. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 22:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Why do we care about what Heinlein says, again? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====*IS* GoBots Canon for Transformers though, Redux.====

I think my stance is... we document anything officially branded as Transformers toys or fiction, and what characters/concepts are contained within. So unless the GoBots cartoon (or toys, or whole line in general, or whatever) is ever officially stated as being Transformers fiction specifically, we should stick to only documenting what shows up in Transformers fiction. Otherwise, as previous posts indicate, we could start getting really crazy in what we should be documenting, especially since there's still significant amounts of definitely official TF stuff that needs writing up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:lost count:''A years-long pattern of name usage, toy creation and eventually official stories that specifically pull the existing GoBots fictional universe into the Transformers multiverse is something else''
:The thing with "years-long patterns" is that you can never tell when they're over. Looking backwards across 17 years, yeah, there have been an awful lot of GoBots references in TF, and there will probably be more, but the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope and so far that just appears to be a one-off. We always hold off on including material that hasn't come true yet--unconfirmed rumors and stolen toy protos and such--so what is the difference between that and holding off on writing the TFWiki Jeeper Creeper article until after he appears, if he ever actually does?--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:19, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I'm not saying that we should document him because he might appear. My contention is that this pattern, culminating in a story that effectively says that yes, the GoBots universe DOES exist somewhere in the Transformers Multiverse, pulls the GoBots universe retroactively into the Transformers Multiverse. I'm saying it's ALREADY happened. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:52, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, but there's still lots of non-TF things that are technically part of the TF universe that we still don't document in full because not all of their bits are official TF fiction or toys. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:58, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::And I'd say that GoBots is sufficiently different from them that they warrant inclusion. I'm having a hard time understanding what the 'cost' of adding in GoBots would be. I don't buy the camel's nose arguments here - if we decide GoBots are close enough and interesting enough to document, it doesn't force us to then add C.O.P.S. The benefits, on the other hand, are multitude. It brings us more pageviews, allows Transformers creators more access to this material and in general enriches the universe. If it costs us a few (hundred) hours of editorial time, is that bad? We may get new editors or more activity out of our existing ones. (Oh, and Thy, I don't think I'd call seven toys (almost eight, but for the rights) no consequence. Games of Deception was a solidly GoBot story as well.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::See, this totally ''is'' the "camel's nose" thing you just said it wouldn't be: seven or eight GoBots involved in two or three TF stories is now the rationale for adding at least 90 other characters, 65 episodes, and a feature-length movie that are of no significance whatsoever to the TF mythos. Even if we could magically press a button and have it all appear instantly at no effort--they still just wouldn't belong here. We don't know what "future stories" may ever exist, and longstanding precedent on this wiki has been that we don't base our coverage on future assumptions--even revelations of future facts through unofficial sources when we all know full well it is actually true, and that's certainly not the case here. While it may indeed be cosmically unfair for GoBots to have been so generally forgotten and without a wiki of their own, that really isn't necessarily our problem. I really think it would dilute the spirit of what we've put together here. It is canonically established that Visionaries takes place in the same universe as Animated--and frankly I suspect more people read the book in which that notion appeared than read Withered Hope. I think I can rather confidently predict that any future Visionaries story material would consist of more TF references like that and not an actual freestanding Visionaries revival. Withered Hope says the GoBots stories are being "folded" into TFs, but the Almanac says all the Visionaries stories were already taking place on a normal planet that existed normally in the Animated universe. There is at least as valid a reason to add Abraxas the Sun Imp to this wiki as there is for Zod the Super Gobot.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
=====Jim and Jeysie engage in a truly pointless argument (sorry, everyone)=====
:::::The cost kinds of boils down to...
:::::This is a Transformers wiki. So far our purview has been limited to only official Transformers-branded merchandise and fiction, and we're hardly lacking for material to write up within that limitation. I see no reason to "dilute" our focus, or open up a can of worms of people with other pet fave universes connected to TF trying to argue for us writing up those franchises too.
:::::Bringing in editors that are only interested in documenting GoBots (or other non-TF) material doesn't do us any favors, and having our existing editors working on it just takes time away from all of the Transformers-focused articles still left unmade/finished.
:::::My thought: If people really, really want to write up GoBots stuff, just start a sister wiki somewhere. Best of both worlds, IMHO. That way it can really document all of the GoBots stuff (whereas if we forever have only a limited GoBots writeup here, that will either end up discouraging anyone who ever wants to start a more comprehensive wiki, or result in pointless duplication), and we can just do what we do with Star Wars/GI Joe and write up only what's relevant to TF here and provide links to the other wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:28, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::OK. I'm seeing two objections. Stop me if I'm unfairly characterizing them.
:::::::1: Time writing GoBots articles could be spent writing up Transformers articles.
:::::::2: Saying 'yes' to GoBots, which is admittedly a boundary case in terms of scope, means that someone may come along and argue about some other universe.
::::::For point one, I think Thanos6 had a very good counter-argument. Most non-document Transformers stuff is pretty esoteric at this point. If you're not a paying member of the club, you won't have access to that sort of fiction. ARE there any other large swaths of fiction not covered? Some of our editors, myself included, have more access to GoBots material than Transformers material. I'm hardly alone in this, though I am the apparent champion. Rosicrucian, DrSpengler, BlackOut, and Khajidha have all expressed a willingness. There are some high-caliber editors here.
::::::For point two, again, I just don't find it compelling. We shouldn't cover material because someone might someday start an argument about something else? Really? I can pretty much guarantee that if we don't do GoBots now we'll have another discussion about it within the next year when more GoBots stuff comes out. (That's not a reason to go forward with it, I'm just pointing out the futility of this argument.)
::::::The visionaries counter-example is kind of a strawman anyway, Thy. The Almanac states that
:::::::1: There is a place called Prysmos
:::::::2: Some group lives there called the Darkling Lords
:::::::3: Speaking like the Angry Archer might be useful for dealing with them
::::::You see how that's pretty different from a story set in their cartoon universe, where they use an existing technology to travel to our realm. As well as 7 or 8 toys. And another ten or so appearances throughout multiple continuities. AND another story featuring explicit GoBots characters. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Re: Point one: There's still a large number of Generation 1 characters who need their Sunbow cartoon fiction sections written up. And there's also missing Animated and Movie-related info out there. And that's just for starters. There's far more than just the esoteric stuff that needs writing up.
::::::::Re: Point two: If we're going to write up GoBots merely because it's a part of the TF universe, then we'd at least need to do the same for GI Joe, Marvel, and Star Wars as well. If anything, Marvel and Star Wars would have priority because they actually factor heavily into officially-branded Transformers merchandise. I find the argument about which franchise will have more official TF fiction than another completely irrelevant as we don't care (in terms of editing) what a franchise does or doesn't do outside of how it's interacted with Transformers.
::::::::Nor is what it will or won't do relevant either, as GI Joe at least already has a large chunk of existing fiction that would make it important enough to worry about regardless of whether it ever gets more TF-oriented fiction.
::::::::I'm not biased against GoBots or anything, I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. We simply don't need to in order to be successful at our "mission" of providing info on all things TF. Maybe if Hasbro ever has a brain fit and decides to stop making new TF stuff, and we finish writing up all of the existing stuff, we might need to expand our scope to stay viable, but that point isn't any time soon that I'm aware of. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Look, I don't want to be a dick about this or anything, but no. You are just flat-out wrong about that. We are not obligated to do anything. We can make exceptions. We can make judgment calls. We could, if we were so inclined, decide that the G.I. Joe Sunbow cartoon belongs in the wiki but the G.I. Joe comic doesn't. We could decide that ALL of G.I. Joe belongs in the wiki but M.A.S.K. (which has been subsumed into G.I. Joe) doesn't. We're not automatons.
:::::::::And that's ASIDE from all the specific arguments I've made above about why GoBots are different. And I've got some new ones, which are hardly relevant given that I'm throwing my weight behind the compromise solution, but ... Withered Hope was NOT a cross-over story. It was a Transformers-branded story, not a co-branded one. That makes a difference, or we could deign it to. You've got a good six solidly Transformers characters, with toys and everything, showing up in a Transformers non-crossover story. And yet, that story is a sequel to, and set in the universe of, the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon. In effect, that pulls in the entirety of the Challenge of the GoBots cartoon in a way that a co-branded story might not.
:::::::::And finally, you state that "I just think we shouldn't be writing up ''anything'' not directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff." Well, GoBots is clearly 'DIRECTLY related to officially-branded Transformers stuff'. If 'related' is you criteria, then we've already met it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's less a matter of obligation and more that all of your arguments to include GoBot material here exactly apply to GI Joe, etc. as well. (Sorry, but IMHO none of your arguments make GoBots remotely different in ways that are at all relevant.) Ergo, if we decided to suddenly catalog non-TF GoBots stuff here, it would be completely and utterly arbitrary to not include all non-TF GI Joe, etc. stuff as well. And I think it's really pointless to actually include lots of non-TF stuff like that when it is completely unnecessary to understand the TF stuff that is our main focus (since we already cover non-TF concepts to what is enough to understand their place within TF fiction), and we're not lacking for material to add yet.
::::::::::And, no, GoBot is ''not'' directly related to officially-branded Transformers stuff. The GoBot cartoon is, AFAIK, not officially-branded Transformers fiction. Only some of the GoBot characters are officially branded TF toys. Only some of the GoBot characters and concepts show up in Transformers-branded fiction. And... again, we already cover those toys and concepts that ''do'' show up in a sufficient enough manner to understand their place within Transformers-branded fiction and merchandise.
::::::::::Basically, if the remaining GoBots fiction and toys ever become officially branded as being Transformers, then IMHO it'll therefore be appropriate to include.
::::::::::Otherwise, I really think that the separate sister wiki idea is the way to go for a lot of reasons. It benefits GoBot fans in that they can catalog ''everything'' GoBots, not just what is "Hasbro-OK", and it benefits us in not taking our focus away from Transformers. There's really no downside there. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:38, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::You do realize what the word 'related' means, right? Are you arguing that something needs to be related to officially branded Transformers fiction, or that it needs to be itself branded as part of the Transformers fiction. Those are two different positions. You're stating one position and then, as far as I can tell, arguing for another one. It's making your whole position schizophrenic and hard to decipher.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'm stating I feel that it has to actually be a part of Transformers fiction or toys, or directly relevant and ''related'' to it like our out-of-universe articles on concepts regards the fandom and various aspects of creating and purchasing Transformers toys. Sorry if I fail to see what's so utterly difficult to comprehend about that. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:01, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::So, you'd be in favor of removing Megatron's appearance in G.I. Joe #138, because that wasn't branded Transformers?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:04, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Er... last I knew, GI Joe #138 was officially considered a part of the Transformers-branded Generation 2 comic series, so I fail to see how that's relevant.
::::::::::::::But in any case, my point is not at all hard to comprehend unless you're deliberately trying to be contrary. In which case, go talk to someone who hasn't had their patience for such things leeched out by the fandom already. I'm tired of being piled on that way because people can't just read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth or playing dumb. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::[[Image:Marvel GIJoe-138.jpg|thumb|right|150px| I don't see a Transformers logo on this cover]]I'm not playing dumb. I'm looking at your position - that only fiction that is 'officially branded Transformers fiction' and trying to poke holes in it. It's a totally legitimate strategy. So, looking at this picture, and actually reading the entire book, you won't find any Transformers logos or copyright notices. So, I assume you're going to champion its removal from this wiki, right? Or that you're going to modify your position.
:::::::::::::::And, as an aside, if you're tired of people who 'can't just read what [you] wrote', maybe the problem is you and not all the people out there who can't seem to exactly puzzle out the positions you so passionately argue for.
:::::::::::::::(The REALLY sad thing is, this argument is TOTALLY MOOT, since we both voted the SAME WAY on the compromise position.) Exasperatedly yours, [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:26, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We label it as "G.I. Joe Starring Snake-Eyes, ''Featuring Transformers: Generation 2 #138''". It follows directly from a Transformers story. That set of GI Joe comics, according to our articles, then leads directly into the Generation 2 comic. It seems from our write-up to thus be a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline. If that's ''not'' the case, then I ''would'' argue it doesn't have a place here.
:::::::::::::::Whereas the GoBots cartoon and the non-TF toys have zip to do with any TF-branded fiction or toys AFAIK. They're not considered a direct part of any TF storyline I know of. I don't have to watch or own any part of it to understand any TF story I know of. It's at best tangentially-related, and quite frankly there's a lot of stuff that's tangentially related to TF if we're going to go down that road, since that brings us right back to GI Joe, Star Wars, Marvel, etc.
:::::::::::::::And, no, I'm pretty sure the problem is people who can't simply read what I wrote and take it at face value. I fail to see what's so difficult about "If it's not a part of or directly related to official Transformers-branded toys or fiction, IMHO it's not our purview." I mean, it's one sentence, it ''looks'' like English, it seems straightforward. If you want to add your own things into it that I didn't say, then you've only got yourself to blame if you're confused, not me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:47, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Addendum: But yeah, I realize it's moot. Just... hurgh. Tired of almost every attempt to have a debate on something in this fandom being an exercise in frustration. :P --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::::::::::::: We label it that, but it's not called that. Just LOOK at the cover! It follow three other G.I. Joes issues telling the same story and cameos a Transformer who had appeared in other Transformers stories, though in a different body. But it's not ITSELF a Transformers branded story. So, are you now changing your criteria so that non-transformers branded stories are sometimes ok for inclusion under some circumstances? Because that's NOT what you wrote earlier.
:::::::::::::::: (I'm not trying to insinuate anything ... it was YOU who brought up the idea that you've had many other people before have similar problems with your positions. Maybe the whole world IS crazy and you're the only sane one ... it's possible, I guess.) --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:13, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::My criterion still stands as "a part of ''or directly related to'' official Transformers-branded toys or fiction". I, at least, would classify being a direct part of a Transformers-branded storyline (if it ''is'' in fact such-I have only our write-up to go by) as fitting that criterion. In that, you have to know/read it in order to not be missing part of a Transformers storyline.
:::::::::::::::::(And, well, I've had ''TF fans'' have similar problems. Very seldom had the same problems in other fandoms.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::So, in your view, a non-branded story that leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline meets your criteria of 'directly related.' Well, boom, we're done. Challenge of the GoBots leads into an official Transformers-branded storyline, Withered Hope. So, I'm glad that you've come around to my way of thinking. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:30, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::No, in my view, one of two things:
::::::::::::::::::::The GoBots cartoon is in no way a ''direct'' part of the plot of Withered Hope any more than the storyline of the universe Jackpot and Hubcap came from is a direct part of the plot of Gone Too Far, or all of Bulletbike's previous exploits are a direct part of I, Lowtech, or what have you. In contrast, it seems like the GI Joe and Generation 2 comics are actually all one single storyline all directly related. If you don't read the GI Joe comics, you're actually missing part of the plot of the storyline.
::::::::::::::::::::It's kind of like, say, imagine that All Hail Megatron had its first six issues branded as a non-TF story, and the last six branded as Transformers fiction. Even though it ended up branded as two different things, it's all directly related as one storyline. In contrast, while any story with Spiderman or another Marvel character in it obviously thus has that Marvel universe as part its background somehow, only that specific character and the aspects of him that furthered the story are relevant to our view of the fiction, not the entire extra universe he's a part of.
::::::::::::::::::::Or alternatively, if we did argue that anything that leads into a TF storyline even just as background is fair game, that still, again, applies to far more franchises than just GoBots, so there's still nothing special about that franchise that warrants singling out. Sorry, but your attempt at twisting my meaning around still isn't working. So, why not just go ahead and accept what I said at face value and call it a day? It'd certainly make ''my'' day happier. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::Have you actually read Withered Hope or the G.I. Joe story in question, or even watched CotG? CotG has a LOT more to do with Withered Hope than G.I. Joe #138 has to do with the rest of the story that follows. Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story. Meanwhile, Withered Hope made reference to, and relied on, GoBots characters and technologies extensively. The Astro-Beam, the Dimensional Interfacer, specific character traits and backgrounds. I'm not trying to twist your meaning, I'm trying to parse it. There's a difference. I'm willing to accept that you don't like GoBots as a part of this wiki. I'm just not willing to accept that you have a logical, consistent reason for it that doesn't exclude other parts of the fiction. Then again, if you're not actually familiar with the fiction in question (and you've admitted that you haven't even read the G.I. Joe unbranded story), then that might explain a few things. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:56, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::Actually, this is totally, utterly pointless. I don't care that your viewpoint is not internally consistent. I'm bowing out of this argument. Post whatever you like in rebuttal, and just assume that I disagree with you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, I've read Withered Hope; I didn't see any difference between the GoBots technology vs. pretty much any other technology from TF fiction insofar as understanding enough to get the story. Or how getting a feel for the GoBots characters was any different than getting a feel for Cryotek or Crystal Widow or any of the other TransTech characters that have pretty much only gotten their characterization through the prose stories. I didn't feel like, "Well, this makes zero sense/feels like I'm missing part of the plot unless I've seen the GoBots cartoon."
::::::::::::::::::::::::"Actually, G.I. Joe #138 is part 4 of a 4 part story that is a prequel to G.I. Joe #139-142, a 4 part co-branded Transformers/G.I.Joe story."
::::::::::::::::::::::::So, er. Is that different than something like Infiltration #0?
::::::::::::::::::::::::And, my viewpoint is perfectly consistent, as evidenced by the fact that I'm pretty much ending up finding myself having to repeat myself over and over again because nothing you've said contradicts my point. Again, the only reason you're confused is because you keep inventing your own meanings and whatnot that I didn't actually say instead of paying attention to what I did. I doubt most people are going to find anything remotely confusing about "branded as or directly related to TF fiction/toys" because most people aren't doing mental gymnastics to find a convoluted way that something that's "nice but not absolutely important" background info at best and a cameo at worst is somehow important to know to understand some TF fiction. Sheesh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

=====GoBots as a Multiversal Entity=====
How is this different than the G.I. Joe cartoon being in the same continuity as the TF one? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:04, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:I feel like I've answered this. It's different because it's thematically closer to Transformers (civil war between alien robots and all that) AND because we can be about 99% sure that all future GoBots stories will be Transformers stories, whereas we can also be certain that the vast majority of G.I. Joe stories will not be Transformers stories. Also, G.I. Joe is a MUCH larger universe than the GoBots universe. Documenting it would take a lot more work. Maybe if Hasbro stops making new Transformers stories it would be worth it for us to go back and fill out that portion of the Transformers universe, but we haven't come close to hitting that point yet.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::''the only one of real consequence was Withered Hope''
::Which was a direct sequel to the toy-only fiction of the Go-bot 6-pack bios. Also "Games of Deception."
::Also, you're discussing "Go-Bots" like their universe is a multiversal singularity. [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|It's]] [[Bug Bite (SG)|not.]] With Bug Bites running around, it's probably safe to assume that Fracture actually '''is''' Crasher too. Who knows... maybe all the Cy-Kills are Cy-Kill? The Go-Bot diaspora ''does'' seem to have scattered them across all points of the multiverse.
::(It's not like Go-bots was '''ever''' 1 universe. They had comics, right? And storybooks, and audio adventures, and a negative universe...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:16, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::But we already cover all those characters you named, precisely because they had fully-realized appearances in TF fiction. We weren't just assuming them into existence by weight of related characters who had come before.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:41, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

:(de-indenting) The problem is that if you treat Go-bots as ''part'' of the TF Multiverse, it doesn't create the amount of work you're describing. We're not just documenting it's characters, or it's episodes... we're also documenting storybooks, audio adventures, coloring books...
:...plus the need for their own disambiguation, backstory, history... if the Go-Bots cartoon is "really" part of the TF Multiverse, then that means '''its''' description of the negative universe should be valid and binding for Transformers.
:But I don't think the Go-Bots cartoon ''is'' necessarily part of the TF Multiverse. Quite aside from the fact it's owned by someone else... I think it's more likely what we're seeing are "new" Go-Bots universes similar to what's been seen before, but distinct from them. (Similar to how every post-BW G1 story includes Sparks-- because they're new G1 universes that adhere to how the TF Universe works.) So if the Go-Bots negative universe episode says that negative universes are shadow-universes that are 1:1 reflections of positive ones (as in the Xenaverse) that doesn't have to apply for the TF version of the multiverse... because the cartoon is not "canon" in the same way a TF Coloring book is.
:And God '''damn''' it, if we're gonna take our rules for how negative universes work from outside the TF canon, it's gonna be from the goddamn G.I. Joe cartoon, not the goddamn Go-Bots! What are you, a communist? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think we should pretend that the characters that do appear in TF fiction are blank slates. We could fill in bio type information but then act like the TF story is there first and only fictional appearance. The same might be true of characters that haven't appeared in TF fiction. No matter what, all the GoBot characters are assumed to exist in the TFGoBot continuity (no matter what that continuity looks like), right? Maybe bio-only pages for those guys? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:53, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Ultra Magnus seems not to have existed at all in Marvel US continuity. Presuming that all Go-bots exist in any single reality is... presumptuous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Actually, for reason above (arrived at in the "Who owns what Vis-à-vis rights" section), I'm with Starfield. I think that this wiki should, at least for the moment, only cover the parts of GoBots that Hasbro owns. That means that, while you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about GoBots having its own universe of coloring books and negative universes and whatnot, we could ONLY cover the characters. The fiction sections would have to remain blank, until and unless they show up in licensed Transformers media. (Or, of course, the two multiverses converge more.) This gives us AND our corporate landlord the maximum possible benefit while limiting our scope of work to a mere, I dunno, 90 characters. More than 10% of which have already shown up here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:20, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====A potential solution====
We were talking about this in WiiGii! (omg hivemind) and while I don't think anyone is opposed to a wiki for GB info, grandfathering it all into THIS wiki seems a bit beyond the stated scope. One suggestion was to do a separate GB wiki, hosted on THIS wiki's servers, as a side project - the GoBots Wiki, presented by TFWiki, if you will. When necessary, they would share information, link back reflexively, share userbase, etc. If the stated event comes to pass where Hasbro or someone says "Yeah, all that GoBot stuff happened somewhere in the TF multiverse" then fuck it, we roll the whole thing back in. Given how unlikely that seems to be as per the conversations above, a dedicated GB wiki run as an official side-project of TFWiki is probably the best outcome I can think of. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:24, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

:I don't know how much work it'd be to set up and run (less than ours, due to the limited scope, but certainly some work) but I do like the idea on the whole and would definately contribute to such a wiki should it be born. (ZacWilliam, who really needs to log back in one of these days)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 11:31, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::I could get behind that as a compromise.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::If you guys created a separate GoBots wiki, I would gleefully contribute as much as I contribute here. Wouldn't be too hard, either, since a good chunk of the episodes are available online and Counter X has scans of most of the really hard to find comics from the US and the UK. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:02, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be for it as well. We'd need an inter-wiki linking schema-- "gobots:" and "transformers:" seem dangerous-- there's gonna be articles called "Transformers: Subtitle", which makes that... um... potentially fraught. How about "w:gb:" vs. "w:tf:"? That mirrors the interwiki linkign schema used by Wikia to cross-link their sites, and is nicely distinct. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:30, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Honestly, I was about to suggest that myself, but I've been highly distracted as of late. Seems like the best solution to me... plus, it's a perfect excuse to haul out the GoBots bin and do extensive photoshoots of those. Of course, the big question... what do we name the band? GBWIKI to keep with TFWIKI's theme? That's where I'm leaning. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hrm... the toyline was just "GoBots," but the cartoon was "Challenge of the GoBots"... ''ah!'' But there were GoBot ancillary materials (like storybooks) not branded COTG, but simply "GoBots."
::There is no clear delineation that corresponds to the portion of the brand Hasbro may own. Calling it "Challenge..." would implicitly limit it to the cartoon and exclude other things. "GoBots" is probaby what we want to hit. So yeah-- "GBWiki" since the reason we're "TF" instead of "Transformers" is to avoid Hasbro's trademark-- and they '''do''' own the trademark on "GoBots." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:43, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I could likely whip up a take on the GoBots logo for it when I get home.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:49, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::I am particularly thinking: "GOBOTS - MIGHTY ROBOTS, MIGHTY WIKI" as the tagline.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:56, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::"Challenge of the GoBoxes!" Naahh, of course not. I just wanted to say it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::On that note, it wouldn't be hard at all to throw together a version of the Go Boxes using the GB logo's "GO" instead of our usual Prime-trailer-inspired one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:15, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Heheheheheheheheh. -[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Some surely practical suggestions:
::::*'''Interwiki schema:''' <nowiki>[[w:gb:Crasher]] / [[w:tf:Crasher (G1)]]</nowiki>
::::*'''site url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net (avoiding "Gobots" in the url since it's trademarked)
::::*'''Example article url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/w3/index.php?title=Crasher
::::*'''.htaccess cleared url:''' http://gb.tfwiki.net/wiki/Crasher
::::"w3" is arbitrary... sub-domains won't actually overlap the file-structure of the existing wiki. (But I feel like installing multiple wikis on one db-server might require a prefix.) Sub-domain feels like a good idea-- both because it's free, and because it enforces our co-branding. Anyway, I'm throwing those parameters out.
::::There '''seems''' to be consensus on this, but if we genuinely intend to spin off another wiki, I feel like there should probably be a formal community vote on the matter. You know-- since TFWiki ''isn't'' run by a cabal of #wiggii members?
::::Say... Measure passage requires 50% of voting editors and 2/3 of voting administrators voting "yea"-- with at least 1/3 of all administrators participating in the vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:11, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::How many admins to we have?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::I count nine. How many are actually active right now is another matter. Also, we need to do this. GoBots won't get a wiki at all otherwise. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:37, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, it'd require at least 3. Which is reasonable, given that TFWiki has some fairly inactive admins. (In a proper 'security council' scenario you'd want 6 of 9 admins participating for any measure to pass. 3 of 9 with at least 2 yea just ensures minimal oversight.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hopefully, we won't need a "security council" anytime soon. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::We don't have a lot of big votes like this one. AFAIK, the move from Wiki and re-licencing have been it.
:::::::::The admin-requirement really only exists to keep a bunch of editors from proposing something silly/crazy on a dead weekend and declaring it passed. (Not that the community would go along with it, but having a bare-minimum administrator rubberstamp requirement heads off potential mischief.) At least, this was the arbitrary requirement I came up with when we passed the relicensing vote, since I'm '''not''' an admin and I was the one proposing it, it seemed important as a means to establish the legitimacy of the vote. (We only got 3 admin voting for that... it was in the middle of convention season and half our people were gone.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::'''Is''' this what we think we want to do? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:54, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Those links link to wikia. Odd. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:00, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yes, very odd. KILL THEM NOW. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
On an interwiki schema... why not just <nowiki>[[tfwiki:*]] and [[gbwiki;*]]</nowiki>? It has the advantage of simplicity. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, to me this seems the easiest to remember.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:55, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::''*shrug*'' Forward-compatability? Site names are fine for everything we link to now, but a future sister-site could overlap existing article names. Frankly, my real motivation is that w:subject: names mean I could type "w:starwars:" instead of constantly misspelling "wookieepedia:" (I always forget the double-e.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::And yeah, I think "w:name:" is currently set to link to wikia. Hrm. "ss:subject:"? (Sister-site?) "p:subject:"? (partner.)
::Wikipedia has a buttload of arbitrary prefixes for interwiki linking. A single consistent schema seems better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:12, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, this would seem to be a good opportunity to kill all the wikia interwiki links (except for the link-exchange deal with Wookieepedia). If a wikia page must be linked to, let it be an external (nofollow) link.
:::And the proposed gbwiki would be a sister/subproject, not a true external wiki like <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:*]]</nowiki> (and note the lack of a secondary prefix there). - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Regards an interwiki schema, why not just "h" for "Hasbro"? h:tf: and h:gb: And I second killing all of the wikia links except for Wookieepedia. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:41, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Not to be a bummer,I love the idea of a GoBot sister wiki, sounds like a lot of fun creating and reading, but an important point has been raised in the Allspark discussion of this: Can we afford it? Our Wiki apparently dosen't always quite pay for itself ad-wise and is basically kept afloat by Walky. Yes, a GoBot wiki would be smaller (and hopefully cheaper) but it also would likely be less popular a draw for adds. (GBs being much less mainstream than TFs now are). Again, it just seemed like a point that should be raised before we dive into the cool project... --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:28, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I offered to make a donation in that thread. Walky said that this wiki costs around $160 a month to maintain, with around $130 being covered by the ads, with those numbers fluctuating every month, obviously. A GoBots wiki would be only a fraction of the size of thise wiki, even when 100% completed in every way imaginable. With ads factored in, about how much do you think we'd need a month to cover the remainder? I could throw in $10 to $20 every month or thereabouts, and if a handful of people sporadically felt the urge to donate equal or less, you think we'd be covered or at least took the brunt of the financial burden off of Walky's shoulders?
:If we CAN do a GoBots wiki, it'd be nice if money wasn't what kept us from making it happen. But hey, I understand that that's the way the world goes 'round and all. Just sayin' that if a fraction of us skipped McDonald's once a month and gave that fiver to the wiki, we might be more or less financially secure. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 15:04, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:Of course, we could just run the theoretical Gobots wiki on the same server, with the same ad boxes. Unless somehow we got a MASSIVE spike in traffic from Gobots fans that aren't Transformers fans (which I am somehow not seeing), it would probably work out to be exactly the same. (Not to discourage anyone from helping the wiki financially. You can do that also and it would help regardless. I'm just sayin'.) --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
::This is good news. This would be ideal, if possible.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:14, 21 October 2009 (EDT)
:::What about a donation drive? We could have a meter on the frontpage, and after the donations reach an amount that could keep the wiki afloat for a while, we could launch GBWiki. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

====Opposition====
Do we have the time or "manpower" for this? This wiki still needs a lot of work. For example, The Unicron Trilogy articles (especially Armada Mini-Cons) and the Beast Wars/Machines are more or less still a mess, and not up to the standards of more recent articles or more frequently-updated articles. I think we should work on getting these pretty important eras of '''Transformers''' up to scratch before our more frequent contributors divert (some) of their attention and free time to GoBots. And yes, I have recently put work into updating Armada and Beast Wars articles where possible, since our other members are most ably handling everything else. And no, I'm not suggesting the wiki should be work, I just think we should get this into order before we start doing something else. Maybe it's my probable Aspergers talking. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:50, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:You're assuming that people who would be working on this have any real knowledge or familiarity with UT materials. Someone may absolutely hate Armada/Energon/Cybertron and have no material to add there, but have much material to add to GoBots. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:17, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::From what I've seen, a good number of the people in this discussion or have discussed it elsewhere are those who have no problem with the UT or actually like it. But there's also Beast Wars - if everybody here likes BW, why are the articles so bad? :p I mean, if I was a newcomer to Transformers (or a returning fan because of the movies), I'd be pretty dissapointed if I came here looking for information about this "Beast Wars" other fans are always raving about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::At one point finishing all the BW or G1/RiD articles seemed like a pipe dream. Effort over time did it.
:::Frankly, I think the potential for such a split to draw in new editors outweighs the negatives of potentially splitting people's attention. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, maybe I'm worrying over nothing, and of course, I can't make people do things they don't feel like doing. Still, concerns are concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:37, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Wasn't trying to say that any particular person hated UT or BW, just that the assumption that the editors who would be working on GB would be drawn away from other parts is not necessarily true. Some people may become more active on mainstream TF articles even while working on GB articles. Something different often energizes people, and that energy can carry over to other things.
::::::Yeah, you can't force people to work on articles that don't interest them. If the spirit moves them to work on BW and UT they will. Adding a GoBot "section"/sister-wik wouldn't stop anything from happening (especially if it isn't happening to begin with). And it might just draw in new contributers or set someone off on a wiki-fying binge that gets a bunch of TF stuff done too. (ZacWilliam, logged out again, dumb laptop)--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.72.27|76.28.72.27]] 08:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::People will work on what interests them. People doing productive work in one area will naturally discover other areas to focus on. Broadening our scope thusly will most likely bring in new editors, or at least reinvigorate old ones. Frankly, the whole argument that we shouldn't allow our editors to work on what they want in the hopes that they work on what someone else wants them to do is pretty flawed. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Oh come on, this is like not letting a kid eat dessert until he's finished his broccoli. "You want GoBots? Well you can't have em until you finish your Unicron Trilogy!" "But I haaaaate the Unicrooon Trilogyyyyy!" "STOP WHINING!" --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:34, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
::Hell, the original ''The Transformers'' cartoon episodes still need a crapton of work (basically, if the Errors sections aren't several screens long, then we aren't doing our job!) Still, I don't see why any of that should stop us. Manpower may not be infinite, but it's not fixed, either; a wider net of subject area will likely attract a few more editors. And people who would work on UT stuff will probably do it anyway sooner or later, even if they do get distracted by GoBots for a while. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:52, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
:::You'll ALL see once I complete these sections by myself and spend hundreds of dollars importing DVD sets* for shows that I don't like YOU'LL ALL SEE!
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>This is a lie. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:59, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

====The Vote====
Well, um, let's do this thing.

* Jim Sorenson, votes '''aye'''.
* I'm in '''support''' of this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:27, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye''' - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]]
* I support this. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:29, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''YES'''. I'm all for it. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:31, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Go for '''yes''', if there are no major problems. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 12:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Oh '''hell yes'''. A GoBot wiki sounds awesome, and how much time/manpower can that really take? There's a really tiny amount of GB stuff compared to TF, after all. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:53, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*Definatly a '''Yes''', if we don't do it who will? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:19, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Aye'''. This place is volunteer-based, let people work on what they want. --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]]
* '''Why the hell not?''' [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 15:07, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* I say '''Go''' for GoBots. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:09, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* [[User:Derik]] votes to '''affirm''' the proposed extension. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Support. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Sure''', why the heck not? I doubt I'll have much hand in it, but it's a good thing to have, and it would definitely be unique! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Another '''yes''' here. --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:10, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* Now that it seems to be its own entity, I am now in '''support''' of this addition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 16:35, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Oui.''' --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:51, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Yes'''. Best of all worlds for everyone, IMHO. (Although I personally won't end up contributing to it.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:42, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Why the hell not.''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 20:36, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
* A GoBots wiki? '''Yeeeeeess'''. (have you ever noticed how people always try to transcribe BW Megatron's "Yes" with a lot of Ss? But it's not the 'S' that he stretches; it's the short 'E' sound. "Yesssssssssssssss" would be like a snake hissing. I suppose it's in reaction to the English rule that turns two consecutive Es into a long E sound. "Yees!" ) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:58, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
**That's technically a long "i" sound. '''Sure''' to whatever we're voting for! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:21, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
* '''Fo' shizzle'''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:21, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Aye me hearties!''' [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 06:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yep''' (and M.A.S.K. has been subsumed into GI Joe somebody said? Since when?) [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 13:31, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**Matt Trakker got a Joe toy this year and the bio card featured the revelation that VENOM was a sub-unit of COBRA and that MASK works for GI Joe. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Heck yes.''' (Also, MASK sucked) --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:54, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*'''Yes.''' (If MASK is part of G.I. Joe, we'll just have to eventually make another sister wiki for G.I.Joe, and then that wiki can have its own sister wiki for MASK. It'll be Tfwiki's cousin wiki. lol.)--[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:03, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
**G. I. Joe has a Wiki, it's just not well maintained.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
*Well, if there's that many people who want to work on the thing, '''Yes''' for me.--[[User:MCRG Again|MCRG Again]] 15:26, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

====Results====
OK, I'm calling this thing. With 27 votes for yes and 0 votes for no, including votes from four admins, there is clearly overwhelming (unanimous, in fact) support for this endeavor. Awesome. Technical-minded folks, what are the next steps from here?

(Just for fun, let's see ... 88K! If this discussion were an article, it'd be the 16th largest on the site, so it's actually longer than 99.8% of the content we've produced.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:43, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
:Sweet. And, we really probably should archive this whole discussion as a "topic" thingy, I think... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 24 October 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah: this discussion is giving insane length warnings. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 09:20, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

Seriously, what are the next steps we need to take? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:I believe it waits on Scout and McFly having the time to set up the changes on our server. (Which, since I think that might involve Squid configuration might take awhile.)
:If people want to get started I suppose I ''could'' set up a placeholder mediawiki install on my domain, and when GBWiki-proper was ready I'd just hand them a database backup. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:57, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::Would you be willing? I think keeping the momentum going while enthusiasm is high is a good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:30, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure. I'll set it up this evening. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:54, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
::::Per request, a temporary home while TFwiki's hosts get their ducks in a line. [http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/ gbwiki.covertutopia.com/] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::So...um...we can get started, then? On the "early draft" stuff? I see no one's made any changes since you put that up, so I'm hesitent, that's all. Can I start on articles there now? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 13:38, 11 January 2010 (EST)
::::::I get the feeling from the edit summaries that folks can get started, it's just that everyone's been too busy/waiting for someone else to do it first. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:14, 11 January 2010 (EST)

====Getting Under Way====

Random thoughts: 1) Do we know for sure the "tech folk" (whoever they are) have seen this discussion, vote and result and are working on it, or planning to? I only ask cause I'm not sure who exactly "they" are and I don't remember seeing anyone saying anything like "we're on it". 2)Once things are definately underway, shound there not be an announcement or link on this side of the wiki somehere letting folks know about the new section/sister open for editting? And if yes, where would be good? --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:05, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:I think it's a good idea, once we finalize some of the real basic stuff over on GBWiki's end. As it stands, we don't even really have a skeleton over there - there's a "list of Go-Bots episodes" page and that's about it. I think we need to get at least a rudimentary framework hung up - both in the sense of A: at least some stub articles for major characters and stories and a general "franchise overview" page to direct people around the site and B: getting all our formatting templates put into motion (character appearance boxes, episode navigation, etc.) At this point, I wouldn't really want to announce it on the front page because there isn't anything there to look at. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::Why does gb.tfwiki.net redirect to transformers wikia? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:32, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm guessing it's an artifact of when tfwiki.net originally pointed to Wikia. ''Any'' subdomain you type in other than www goes to Wikia right now, apparently.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:35, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
::::It's fixed! --[[Special:Contributions/67.149.197.71|67.149.197.71]] 12:56, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Realize that I'm asking this out of a profound ignorance as to how the wiki "mechanically" works, but I assume that it just redirects to us now right, still not to edit-able GoBot-pages-to-be?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:04, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

:::::Hmm, now all subdomains lead to tfwiki.net, but they're returning valid pages rather than redirecting to the "real" URL. If people link to "blah.tfwiki.net" then the search engines will start indexing the whole site a second time under that domain. The other subdomains should redirect as www.tfwiki.net does. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:26, 14 November 2009 (EST)

::::::[http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aen.tfwiki.net] [http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aww.tfwiki.net] See? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:30, 11 January 2010 (EST)

==2010==
===Executive Summary===
''There is no GoBots sister wiki.''

====What happened?====
http://gbwiki.covertutopia.com/wiki/Main_Page
:"GoBots Wiki has a problem

:Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
:Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.

:(Can't contact the database server: Access denied for user 'emopanda'@'localhost' (using password: YES) (localhost))"

I was slagging ecstatic to see that there was going to be a Go-Bots wiki, because I knew next to nothing about 'em and wanted to learn about them. This is just disheartening. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 19:21, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:It's Derik's server, so check with him, though ISTR there hadn't been much info added to the GoBots wiki when it was up. The original intention was to run it on the same server as TFwiki - don't know what happened (or didn't happen) there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::My impression was that Derik's was only set up as a stop gap till the wiki got the one everyone voted for up. That never happened. I got the impression that though the community voted a big yes for it, the powers that be weren't that into it so the vote ammounted to nothing. Which is a shame cause I was really excited to see it happen. :P --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 20:48, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::The powers that be are busy getting married next month. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::It was voted "yes" a year ago. I mean no offence meant, but that's a long time to get a ball rolling. With no appreciable news or announcements in that year I think assuming the big "yes" vote amounted to nothing is kinda understandable. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 21:01, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::General lack of interest. I suspect the number of people who can recite chapter-and-verse of every single Gobots episode, the way we here do for TFs, is very small. Of that small group, fewer still knew this project existed. "It might be cool" works for a half-hour download, not for creating an entire website devoted to about 70 hours of programming and 200 toys when you aren't already ''really'' into it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 21:40, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I was interested at the time because I thought doing an episode guide might be fun. But Counter-X came out with one recently and has about the most thorough collection of info on GoBots toys, merchandise and media; basically everything that would be up on a GoBots wiki, anyway. So I sorta lost my enthusiasm. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 22:47, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::For me, and I have to imagine some others given the widespread enthusiasm in the vote above, it has nothing to do with loss of enthusaism or lack of interest at all, but everything to do with no place to start. The vote was for a "seperate but linked" wiki meaning not just writing up gobot stuff and posting it here but waiting for the apropriate seperate framework to be given. If the OK was given to add Gobots just to our current wiki I'd start constructing GoBot articles and Character pages right away. Without it there's nothing for a potential poster to do but wait on the ptb to start things rolling. I am definately still enthusiastic about the idea and would definately still contibute if it ever comes to pass. (As a side note, the whole GoBotron is Primus thing from the Allspark Almanac 2 makes me want to add this stuff more than ever.) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 03:10, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::I admit that I don't know all that much about GoBots, but by god I would learn as much as I could just so I could help contribute to a GoBots wiki. Without a wiki like this there really isn't any one place to find out everything about GoBots, without having to shell out for a book that probably doesn't have a very wide distribution. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:16, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::The [http://counter-x.net/gobots/index.html Counter-X GoBots page] that Spengler mentioned is quite detailed. I spent some time a while ago reading though some of the pages, and it kinda made me wish the show was out on DVD. I don't think it ever screened here. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:28, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::As good as Counter-X is, it doesn't have the integration of information that we have here. For example, toy and cartoon data are on separate pages. Also, having multiple contributors means that things each individual is missing can still be covered if other individuals have access to them. Just because there is a decent Go-Bots site doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make our own, it just means that we should try to make ours even better.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:39, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

==2011==
===Executive Summary===
''Newbie brings up the idea again.''

====Cartoon?====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)]] page.}}

Why didn't we add info on Cy-Kill's appearances in the cartoon?[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 01:52, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
: We have already added info on all of Cy-Kill's appearances in the Transformers cartoon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:Where? I only see his appearance in the timelines comic, not the gobots or transformers cartoon.
::I refer you to what I just said. This is a Transformers wiki, not a Gobots wiki. We do not catalog Gobots fiction, only Transformers fiction. If Cy-Kill shows up in Transformers stuff, we catalog that. And we have. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::But Gobots and Transformers were both created by Hasbro, and Gobots are related to Transformers somehow. If you watched the documentuary Triple Changer, then you'd see that Gobots inspired Transformers. So basically, more info belongs here.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 15:47, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Read [[GoBots#Pre-GoBots]] and get back to me. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:23, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::They are CURRENTLY in the same company.[[Special:Contributions/71.255.164.136|71.255.164.136]] 16:28, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::No they aren't. Hasbro doesn't own all of Go-Bots. They merely bought Tonka. That doesn't mean they own all of the intellectual property involved. Rival toy company Bandai still owns the toys and Hanna-Barbara still owns the cartoon. At best, Hasbro owns some names. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:45, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Not to agree with this guy per say, but I just want to remind folks: 1) We did hold a vote of users, who at the time overwhelmingly approved that they wanted to do a separate-but-linked Go-Bots wiki as a sister thing under the TFwiki.net banner. And 2) Since that vote the Allspark Almanac officially established that the much interlinked franchise is a part of the TF Multiverse (if there was any doubt) and MORE that GoBotron is their universes body of Primus and the Go-Bots are their universes TFs. Soooo... Why keep them out? It's not like they'd even add THAT much. They've had nothing to talk about that's not here already in 20 years, and were fairly small then. I really can't think of a valid reason to ignore the retcon that they are and have always been TFs. I kinda feel they belong here. They didn't always, but now? Yes.--[[Special:Contributions/99.103.104.77|99.103.104.77]] 17:04, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::The AllSpark Almanac may claim that GoBots are fictionally linked to TFs, but that only makes that statement canonical, it doesn't make a cartoon that is not licensed fiction and does not belong to Hasbro canonical and Wiki-worthy. As for the GoBots Wiki... it was attempted, but nothing really came of it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:17, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::G.I. Joe and Jem are also in the Transformers multiverse. Probably also Spider-Man and Avengers. The AllSpark Almanac connects like a dozen series to the Transformers multiverse. WE ARE NOT ADDING ALL OF THOSE SERIES TO THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:19, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::It linked a lot of series Hasbro has ZERO rights to as well. So um... yeah. --[[Special:Contributions/71.70.225.1|71.70.225.1]] 19:18, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I remember being told that the GoBots wiki still had some technical details to work out before it was really ready to go live and then never heard anything more. Was it ever actually open for general editing? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:22, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::Derik had one set up on his own site (before it died) as a temporary measure while one got sorted out here. A GoBots wiki doesn't absolutely have to be hosted in the same place as TFWiki. If there's sufficient interest, one could be set up elsewhere. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::Well, 1) the retcon did more than place GoBots in the TF multiverse. It said they ARE Transformers and Primus IS Gobotron. That's different in my opinion than a crossover with Spidey or JEM. It's an apotheosis., which makes them and all about them valid material for us retroactively imo. But hey, I'm not gonna argue with the powers that be if they disagree. 2) Yeah, the GoBot sister wiki wasn't really tried as far as I've heard. It was voted for. Approved. And there was then never any movement to make it as far as I ever saw here. Derik was cool enough to make a placeholder site, but nothing ever moved here. Not a criticism, just saying If it had started I would have, and totally still would, contribute. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:37, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::If AllSpark Almanac claimed Pandora was another body of Primus, that wouldn't mean we'd start putting Avatar stuff in the wiki. The claim is canonical, but the fiction isn't. Simple as that. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:42, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I completely disagree. But I also don't care enough to argue the point. So... Meh, I guess. I'd rather the discussion moved to the voted for sister wiki. Cool idea I would have loved to have happened. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 8 October 2011 (EDT)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49#Gobots_on_the_wiki..._again --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:28, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

==2012==
===Executive Summary===
''More of the same.''

==== Integration ====

Okay since this discussion shut down and the wiki seems to be dead I thought I'd bring this up. Via the Club Fiction and the stuff seen in the Almanac, can we do an integration of the GoBots and Go-Bots based on them canonically having Universal Streams and being Transforming Robots? (I suppose this would also cover Robotix)
:No. There are almost no GoBots characters, no GoBots fiction before about 2006, and no Robotix characters or fiction whatsoever, to have ever been published under the appropriate brands required for inclusion here. The very small amount of material appropriate for inclusion is here already. The TFs canonically exist within some version of the Marvel universe, and yet we don't include every single other Marvel character on this wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:45, 12 January 2012 (EST)
:: Ah, but that's my point, if the GoBots and Bo-Bots have been retroactively canonized as altverse Transformers, does that not make them under the proper brand? (Unlike , let's say Captain America, who's never been revealed to be a Transfomers within the Marvel Comics Continuity) This isn't like the Sunbowverse, where non-TF elements are ignored unless pertinent to TF, this is a whole new kit n caboodle which has been declared to be TF under a different name. Just my five cents, since it seems this discussion just sorta petered out.
::: Discussion has petered out because we've explained a bojillion times why it's not going to happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:28, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::I ask again about the sister GoBots wiki seperate but connected to ours that people voted an overewhelming yes for doing way back when but then no one ever it set up. People seemed very interested in doing that when it was voted for during the first time this came up. People were still interested in working on it last time this came up. Just saying'.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 10:45, 13 January 2012 (EST)
:::::It is impossible to retroactively brand something. Hell, there are parts of Darth Vader that actually have been declared and marketed as a TF of some kind, but his prior 30 years of personification beyond those very limited branded appearances do not count and do not appear. It is exactly the same with name-dropping Robotix and then pretending it counted.
:::::At this point I am comfortable determining that nobody gives a shit about GoBots beyond the context of their minimal TF crossovers. It's been like 2 years since the vote and nothing has been done, and no one seems to be trying it anywhere else on the entire Internet either. The Almanac cannot create licenses retroactively, it can just say things and we can go on rightfully ignoring them. It's 2012 and wiki software is easily available - if anyone cared it would have been done. Sorry if I come off too strong, it's just that the non-licensed-hood of every pre-2006 scrap of GoBots fiction and characterization is incredibly open and shut and I really don't see why people keep coming here to try to wish that away. --Thy, not logged in
:::::::Thy, the vote was to start it on our serves as a linked but equal thing and then our folks would fill it once it existed. Every time this comes up as it has multiple times. Folks say that they'd loved to edit and add to it as a companion to ours if it existed. But no one has set it up for them to do it. Basically the interest is there in the community whomedit the wiki but not in the folks who administer the wiki, yes? That seems to be what I see.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:03, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::Gotta agree with the anon here. When the GoBots wiki was to be set up I was told that there were some problems to be worked out with the underlying programming and we would be told when it was ready. The next thing I knew, it was no longer accessible at all. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:04, 13 January 2012 (EST)

==June, 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''Things heat up, as [[Ask Vector Prime]] starts to generously include information regarding GoBots''

==== GoBots articles ====

Is there some reason why we're not having full coverage of the GoBots characters' exploits in GoBots fiction? It seems kind of silly to acknowledge their existence in Transformers media and then... not really provide relevant information. It's not really like there's any cohesive GoBots site with all information in one spot, you know? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 03:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:There is such a site, and its existence has been cited in the past here as one of multiple valid reasons why adding GoBots to this wiki has never gotten off the ground. http://counter-x.net/gobots/ --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:34, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::As good as that site is, it doesn't go into nearly as much detail about its topic as we do about ours. Also, it is maintained by a much more limited set of editors (maybe even just one?). Our larger editor base could bring more eyes and viewpoints to the material. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:07, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:It's been discussed in the past with some trepidation, and the idea of a "sister wiki" for GoBots content was floated, but nobody really seemed into the idea and we haven't talked about it since. At this point, though, with more and more GoBots stuff working its way into TF fiction, along with the complete release of the GoBots cartoon on DVD, perhaps it's time to talk about giving the GoBots show and characters their full and proper due on TFWiki again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:29, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I don't actually know all that much about the GoBots *coughthatswhyweneedinformativearticlescough*, but I'd be more than willing to help with article maintenance and setup if we ever decide to go ahead with it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 05:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::As I've said before, when the GoBots wiki was proposed I was told that there were technical issues to be taken care of before it could be opened for editing and that the community would be told when it was ready. The next I heard about it was that it was being shut down as not having attracted interested editors. I am still fully supportive of either option, a sister wiki or integration. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:12, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::A sister wiki seems like an weird excuse to overcomplicate things. Is there really any reason to not have all the information in one spot? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 07:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::At the risk of overcomplicating things further, since we'd be including Go-Bots because the characters were retroactively made into alternate universe Cybertronians/Transformers, would we also provide complete coverage of [[Robotix]] since it was retroactively altered the same way? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 07:59, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::I'd say no, because we wouldn't be covering GoBots specifically because they were retconned to be alt-universe TFs, we'd be covering them because involvement of their universe and characters has become a recurring thing, and the two franchise have always been paired in some capacity or another. Maybe when Robotix actually does something that ''matters'' and isn't just a winky in-joke; otherwise covering them would amount to covering something like Jem or Inhumanoids in full. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::: Oh god please no to Robotix.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

:::::::For the sake of argument: TFWiki don't have complete coverage of G.I. Joe, despite it's many interactions with Transformers. TFWiki has relevant articles, but not complete coverage. Why do so for GoBots? --[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] ([[User talk:Crockalley|talk]]) 08:10, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Can you REALLY not see a difference between G.I.Joe, Jem, Inhumanoids, etc and GoBots and Robotix? ''Really''? GoBots and Robotix have both been said to be counterparts of the Transformers. Joe, Jem, and the Inhumanoids haven't. Covering GoBots and Robotix fiction IS covering TF fiction, covering Joe, Jem, and Inhumanoids fiction is not. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:15, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::For the love of God, NO. We already feature all the GoBots characters and stories that were published under the TF brand label, just like the relevant Avengers and G.I.Joes. We don't pull in all of the everythings that all of their colleagues ever did in unrelated, non-Transformers stories. It will never belong here. Adding 80 characters and 100 hours of programming? No. As someone said in one of the prior iterations of this, if Vector Prime said that Pandora was a transdimensional embodiment of Cybertron and Eywa was its Vector Sigma portal, we wouldn't fill this wiki with every character and animal from Avatar. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:26, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Avatar isn't a property owned by Hasbro nor something that's been constantly involved in the Transformers multiverse, so I'm not seeing the comparison. It also has its own dedicated fanbase and resources, which isn't really something you can say for GoBots; its presence in real life almost wholly overlaps Transformers. (It'd be around 26 hours, to be accurate.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:46, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::And, ultimately, why does it matter that much if we make one exception for this? It's not going to result in a full-blown biography of Spider-Man from Earth-616 (which exists elsewhere in plenty of places) or full coverage on G.I. Joe (which has its own fanbase that can make a resource if they want to). We're talking about a small subset of articles that you aren't required to work on. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:54, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why wouldn't it result in a full bio of Spiderman? The distinction between the two offtopic properties is arbitrary and insignificant. If you want to talk about ownership, Hasbro owns Visionaries and we know they canonically exist in the Animated galaxy. Shall we bring in articles on Leoric and Heskidorr and the Pig Imp? If you break down the rule of "TF branded material only," then the only thing keeping all the Inhumanoids out is personal preference and "oh, come on!"-ing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::''Logic.'' Any potential revival of Visionaries is not going to be done under the Transformers brand. Spider-Man does not exist under the Transformers brand, G.I. Joe does not exist under the Transformers brand. GoBots now, for all intents and purposes, ''does''. A full revival being hilariously unlikely, anything Hasbro does with the IP in the future - as well as everything it is currently actually ''allowing'' licensees to regularly do with the IP in a capacity beyond "referential nudge-nudge wink wink jokes" - is under the Transformers brand. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::On the contrary - the only published Visionaries story material in 29 years was under the TF brand. It is far more likely that like Inhumanoids, the Visionaries will continue only as a hanger-on of Tramsformers fiction Easter eggs forever. And all of the GoBots material that was published under the TF brand, and is in any way related to real TF characters and stories, is already here. Which is all that belongs here. Hasbro owned Battle Beasts from the start and we currently include all the actual TF branded appearances of Battle Beasts / Beastformers. But we give only the most sparse coverage to the American comic book and American Battle Beast characters because it wasn't a real, branded, linked TF story the way the Japanese material was. We have to stick with standards and not just what people might personally find fun. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:40, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::That's why I stipulated a capacity beyond referential in-jokes for fans, which is all the Inhumanoids or Visionaries references amount to. I think where the disagreement lies is in whether or not we think of GoBots as another franchise that is being "referenced" or having "crossovers" with Tranformers - that's what Visionaries is, but my stance is that it is ''no longer'' the case with GoBots, but that GoBots is now ''part'' of the Transformers franchise and warrants broader treatment than Spider-Man-style articles where we pretend we don't know who Leader-1 is. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:52, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Also, slippery slope arguments are silly, unless the people involved are idiots with no judgement capacity, computers, or state legislatures. You're concerned about things that no one is advocating or interested in. Regardless, I think everyone gets that you're against the idea.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::That's not a slippery slope argument. That's pointing out that putting in Go-Bots would be inconsistent with how we treat other non-Transformers franchises. And, frankly, I think Jim Sorenson should probably recuse himself from this discussion since he's the guy trying to use official means to marry TF and Go-Bots with rubber bands, Elmer's glue, and footnotes. It feels a little disingenuous. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:23, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Fair point. I'll bow out. (Though I'm far from the first or only person to play in this sandbox. In fact, expect more from others in the very near future.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:55, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

IF we decided to do this, I think we'd want strict guidelines from the start about what is and is not in scope. Since the toys were mostly licensed from Bandai, a Hasbro competitor, I would say they should NOT be included. Also, ancillary media has been pretty much ignored by TF fiction.

My gut says that The Challenge of the GoBots cartoon (65 episodes, 1 movie) is about the extent of what we'd want to include. No coloring books, no Machine Robo, none of that. It's the easiest bit to do, the most influential, and the bit that Hasbro mostly has claim to.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:16, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Hasbro has a claim to the cartoon? Then how come [http://www.wbshop.com/product/challenge+of+the+gobots-+the+series,+volume+one+%28mod%29+1000486768.do Time Warner sells it], no probs, without any Hasbro logos anywhere? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:08, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::The text on the back of the original mini-series DVD refers to "Hasbro's GoBots". - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:20, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::And the newer ones? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:24, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::They don't mention it, no, but I'm just pointing out that Warner's put it on there. Hasbro don't ''own'' the cartoon, we know that. I think we can all at least agree GoBots is a ''weird'' case, where Hasbro own the "idea" of the property and the characters and story and such but none of the actual physical ''assets''. It's my contention that those "ideas" are now a part of the Transformers brand, and not guest-stars from another franchise. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::As far as I can discern, they own the name, what other trademarks they've maintained, and that's about it. They don't own the character likenesses and they certainly don't own the toys, and it's confirmed they don't own the cartoon, either. We're not going to catalog a non-Transformers cartoon Hasbro doesn't own on this wiki, no matter what Vector Prime says. If you want to cover the "idea" of what they own, that can be accomplished by adding to the already-existing "Gobots" article. Hasbro owning part of a sliver of an idea of GoBots doesn't mean we need a "Scratch" or "Sparky" article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:35, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:Agreed. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 09:31, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::I'd still like to see all the other stuff done up, but am willing to leave that for another day if it helps get this moving along. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:43, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::Same. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:50, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::This has been asked about 6 times in the recent past, including after the Gobotron incorporation, and it loses every single time. I think it's insppropriate to seriously discuss going ahead with it after about 2 hours of talk. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:01, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'm not sure what you're defining as the "recent past", but the last time I can find was in [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive49|2010]]. We're obviously going to wait for more input before we start pumping out articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:17, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::Here's 2011: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Cy-Kill_(GoBots)
::::::Here's 2012: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I am with Thy. This has been argued to death a billion times over, and nothing has changed. We're not about to start cataloguing stuff that isn't Transformers media on our Transformers wiki. That's the opposite of what this wiki is about, and no amount of Vector Prime answers will make some Hanna-Barbara series into a Transformers one. Folks who want to catalog Go-Bots should make their own wiki, and if they can't drum up the interest to do so, and have to piggy-back on ours in order to get it done, maybe that should tell ya something. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 12:13, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Full agreement with Thy and Walky. And I'd like to point out that I'm one of the bastards who created the lion's share of TF-branded GoBots material. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:02, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
:If we can't document [http://monzo12782.tumblr.com/post/105019142648/and-then-there-was-that-time-the-renegades that time Cy-Kill dressed up as George Washington], what's the point of cataloging any of it at all? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 10:27, 4 June 2015 (EDT)
::Well, you just made my day.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:44, 4 June 2015 (EDT)

==October 2015==
===Executive Summary===
''A full-on GoBots Facebook pages prompts multiple proposals, resulting in several votes, ultimately opting to... make no changes to existing policy''

==== GoBots 2015 ====
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

=====Call for Vote=====

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. 
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. 
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Zebediah Braxis|Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

======Vote Results======
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

======Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture======

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. Over my dead body.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's dead body, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

==January 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''The first real change in 6 years. [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] is declared to be technically not Transformers fiction by [[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]], a proposal by [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]].''

==== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ====

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
=====Walky Calls It=====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

=====Epilogue: It's all over but the crying=====
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

=====Questions and self reflection=====
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Starscream (Armada)|Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful. I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case. (Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

===== Reviving the Sister Wiki =====

So, I'm not going to argue about getting Gobots information on here anymore. However, this has made me want to actually go ahead and make that sister wiki. Now, I have no clue how to work with anything more than the most basic softwear, but I'd actively contribute to such a wiki. Is there anyone else who would? And if so, is there anyone who could set up a site? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)
: I'd be happy to contribute/move pages and info over from this wiki to any hypothetical Gobots wiki. That said, I have no software experience either, so I'm in the dark there along with you. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:59, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::Maybe we could ask abates or something like that. If Derik was here, he could probably set something up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:07, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page I have no real interest in GoBots nor any particular technical skill, but this seems like your best bet for setting up a wiki. It's Mediawiki, so it should work pretty much the same as this site (just, you know, without templates. Or a custom skin, unless you can get someone to do that. Or a unique url. Or content.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'd love to help out with this. I think with what I've seen about fights on TFWiki about GoBots, this would be a good solution, and then the pages that actually would exist here could link to there. I don't know much about GoBots or site editing, but I've been enjoying Renegade Rhetoric and would like to learn more about the GoBots. If this occurs, please let me know and I'll learn/teach myself what I need to help. Would this GoBots wiki consist of the AVP and related stuff also? "[[User:SoundJack426|SoundJack426]] ([[User talk:SoundJack426|talk]]) 20:40, 8 January 2016 (EST)"
:::::Yes, which brings me to my next point: One more thing I want to ask about any potential sister Gobots wiki: would we add Rock Lords information there too? Cause they were marketed separately, but they pretty much exclusively showed up in Gobots fiction, aside from the random storybook. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:09, 10 January 2016 (EST)

I've been amazingly busy, but I still want to come back to this. I did make some attempts at cobbling some stuff, quickly realizing I'm still stuck with my understanding of coding at Windows XP Microsoft word and having no understanding of what any of this stuff means. However, I do want to at least try to make this wiki happen. I'd have to wait till summer to make any real big push with this, but in the meantime, if anyone can offer any means or advice, it would be appreciated. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:31, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==February 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''Clarification of existing status of GoBots on the wiki. Crossover GoBots get full write-up, with brief Renegade Rhetoric summaries.''
==== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ====

Is there any objection to my adding External Links to Counter-X's Challenge of the GoBots profile pages to the character pages here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:54, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:I was doing it only in lieu of TFU.info links. TFU seems to be our standard for outside toys links and we typically don't do others unless TFU lacks them for some reason. But I dunno if there's a legit policy about it or not. (that said, Counter X is a great GoBot-centric resource and probably more informative than TFU, just my opinion) --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:58, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::Counter-X has actual cartoon bio pages to link to, not just toy reviews.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:59, 3 February 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think there's any issue with adding informative links. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:31, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::::Okay, Renegade-related pages linked. I'll tackle the Guardians later. Unless someone else wants to do it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:27, 5 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Guardian-related pages linked. I changed format a time or two, I will go back later and harmonize ALL of them. Unless someone else beats me to it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:52, 22 February 2016 (EST)

OK, just to clarify, what Chris McFeely proposed last month was this: ''"GoBots characters only mentioned in Renegade Rhetoric stories consolidated into simplified 'List of Guardian' and 'List of Renegade' pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles."'' So, it's permissible to write up full articles for characters who appear in the crossover fiction, yes, detailing their adventures in said crossover fiction? Those who only appear in Renegade Rhetoric get consolidated into a list with brief description of their Renegade Rhetoric adventures with links to the RR/src archive. And for the characters who do appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get that brief description with link to archive. I don't want to do work that will get reverted or start an argument, which is why I'm double-checking what Chris proposed and the community agreed.

If my understanding is correct, I'll try to write up the crossover fiction stuff, and then take a stab at consolidating whoever's left. I thought I remembered seeing a sandbox of consolidation, did anyone make any progress on that?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:55, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:Considering that we now list it as "Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric", does that distinction still apply? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:21, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::Let's not bring up old wounds and rehash old arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:43, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::Chris's proposal was based on the idea that Renegade Rhetoric wasn't Transformers fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::Jim has stated before that the "Transformers" part of the title doesn't really mean anything and shouldn't be taken too seriously. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:53, 25 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I guess I can't argue against that. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:57, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::I would, however, argue that the RR appearances of characters who have other TF fiction appearances should be on their pages and not just on the archive. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:01, 25 February 2016 (EST)
::::::: I don't want to argue about anything. I just want to confirm that I am correctly understanding and interpreting what was decided.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:10, 25 February 2016 (EST)

So... no opinions on this? I'm maybe 90% sure I'm right in my interpretation, but I'd love Chris or Walky to weigh in just to be certain. If no one cares anymore, I'll assume I'm right and get started. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:46, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:Yep, your summary matches what I envisioned. I started [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|this sandbox]] for the Renegades but I've been busy. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 10:30, 26 February 2016 (EST)
::Great. I'll try to get some progress done this weekend. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:20, 26 February 2016 (EST)
:::I would say, though, that it'd be worth linking to at least one of the TFU/Counter-X profiles from these list pages, given that they provide useful context ''without'' it being the wiki's coverage; in particular, the likes of Jack Attack and Decker Decker, who (on the sandbox as it stands) don't give any indication of which unused Machine Robo toys they're based on, meaning it would be pretty much impossible for casual readers to track them down. I remember that someone proposed using a table instead of headers for the list pages; maybe have a column in the table for Counter-X links? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:40, 26 February 2016 (EST)

==March 2016==
===Executive Summary===
''After the publication of [[Echoes and Fragments]] makes the previous ruling on Renegade Rhetoric moot, the community declares that ALL Facebook GoBots material is off limits on the grounds that we simply don't like it / it causes too many arguments, whether or not it is Transformers fiction.''

====Echoes and Fragments====
{{note|This conversation originally took place on the [[Echoes and Fragments]] story page.}}

=====Initial Discussion=====
If ever we were given cause to kill individual GoBots pages, this disgusting masturbatory horseshit is '''''it'''''. If ever there was doubt that these things were being done to end-run and abuse the wiki, it's dead. Jesus fucking Christ. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Finding it hard to argue with you. I mean.. geez. This is a lot of effort put into something for inconsequential stuff... Imagine if people put this much effort into... making a Go-Bots wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:46, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh ''dear''. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::(Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think that's what's going on here. Jim seemed perfectly fine with this stuff not being on the wiki. I really think he just has fun writing GoBots stories and is happy that Hasbro lets him. I guess it's my own OCD that makes me want to write up the GoBots who meet Transformers here, just like we do with Marvel heroes and G.I. Joe characters.
::::::::And as to this "stretching the definition" of a story... does it? Did you read it? I laughed out loud at several parts and found the juxtaposition of GoBots elements with the overly familiar Transformers The Movie story rather clever. Blaster getting swapped for Blaster, Leader-1's corny response to "why throw away your life so recklessly", Fracture and Deadlift as Unicron upgrades for Crasher and Deadlift. It's a good read, and virtually every scene has a traditional Transformer in it. So, to call it not a Transformers story seems unfair. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 04:13, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Forget it, you win. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:16, 1 March 2016 (EST)

I was just ''waiting'' for this story to shit everything up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 04:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Okay, so... as an extended story, I think this warrants its own page, yes. (As Jim pointed out, the original is only slightly shorter than the upcoming Beast Wars: Uprising story.) And it ''is'' heavily Transformers-based, as opposed to being more-or-less pure GoBots fiction like Renegade Rhetoric is. But I think that, really, 70-80% of this article could be replaced with "events followed as in Transformers: The Movie, except with these GoBots replacing these Transformers", because... that's what it is. We don't need full descriptions of anything except the Sideways/Vector/Gong parts. (Also, the sooner we condense the GoBot character pages, the better. All those red links are making me nervous that someone's going to start adding them.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:And that's exactly what I'm advocating. The page SHOULD exist. But really. ''REALLY''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 05:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:::No? None of them? I mean, some get a ton of fiction here. Is there any intellectual foundation for this position, or is it basically just "we don't like it." I see plenty of room to condense characters, but certainly this should expand the scope of who gets featured. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:09, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::::Don't. Just... don't, dude. This is not something you will get supported on, I assure you. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)

Sigh.

Giggidy, I like you, I truly do. I appreciate your enthusiasm for AVP and co. But there's a point where you have to step back on some things, and wonder if you're going too far.

Now, as for the article itself, I feel that there's bits that are acceptable and bits that aren't. The notes section is fine, who's replaced with who makes sense. But the summary really needs paring down. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:47, 1 March 2016 (EST)

It seems a bit narcissistic to insist that Jim shouldn't write what he wants to write because of the wiki or that it's the purpose of his work. Nobody's obligated to respect our idiosyncrasies when it comes to particular topics. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)

===== Delete =====
Why is this even an issue? I thought this was all settled two months ago. If the wiki doesn't want to cover GoBots (or any other piece of my writing, or anyone elses' for that matter) the wiki doesn't have to. I'm a big believer in engaging with the bits of the franchise you like, and ignoring the bits you don't. Giggidy, the reason I asked you not to write up this article was because it's evident which way the majority of this particular community leans. Just respect that. I'll write whatever I want, the wiki can cover whatever it wants, and other readers can read or not read whatever they want. It's not rocket science here. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:11, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:The issue is that this isn't unambiguously GoBots fiction like the majority of us consider Renegade Rhetoric to be; it's combination GoBots and Transformers fiction, a la Withered Hope. I don't think anyone actually thinks this shouldn't be covered. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:43, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I definitely think this should be covered. The issue of how to handle the Go-Bots elements is something we'll have to deal with somehow. (I ''think'' we said they would all go in a list article or something? Am I understanding that correctly?) If there was a Go-Bots wiki, I'd say we should link to that, but... -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 1 March 2016 (EST)

======A different proposal======
Since this story was presented by Vector Prime in universe as a document written by his student, Blueshift, what if we were to likewise treat this story as such? Instead of this article covering the events of a fictional story written by a real world author (Jim Sorenson), it would cover the contents of a fictional document written by a fictional author (Blueshift), thereby treating the actual story within the document as a meta-fictional story-within-a-story that we needn't cover in the same manner as real-world fiction, but still having it covered on here in some fashion. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm against it. There's no point being cheeky about it and trying to find loopholes so we can get to say "it doesn't count." The Go-Bots can still get one list-page. There's no reason list-pages can't be just as informative, interesting, and in-depth as anything else. And there's no reason why the existence of this specific fiction should change our approach to the Go-Bots being documented. It's not about whether the story is good or bad. I enjoy Sorenson's writing frequently. It's about the fact that we approach different franchises outside of TF on a pretty case-by-case basis, and I think the (mostly) list article is the fairest approach for Go-Bots. G.I. Joe has special "rules" that let us include a little bit more than we would for say, Star Wars. I know my reaction was based on the presumption of what it meant about other Go-Bots articles. I'm sure that's the case for other people. Everything should be documented in full, as it should be, but you shouldn't wind up on a Go-Bots page every third click of the "Random Page" button with the current proposal. Article stands. List of Go-Bot stands. That's what I think. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 02:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::''Fine''. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Giggidy, please, let it go. "We don't like GoBots" is a PERFECTLY VALID and legitimate reason not to want to write about it. They don't NEED a better reason, so stop asking for one.
:::::::And, wiki folks, not for nothin', but I strongly recommend just adopting the stance that all GoBots are verboten and not try to contort yourself through intellectual hoops to justify their exclusion. I've had GoBots in my work since 2010 (though you can be forgiven for not realizing that <nowiki>[[Zero (Animated)]]</nowiki> and <nowiki>[[Zero (GoBots)]]</nowiki> aren't the same dude, since I hadn't introduce the concept of the diaspora yet) and I'm not likely to stop any time in the near future. I'll be happier if every time you see a Monster GoBot in Uprising or there's some new GoBot face in Axiom Nexus it doesn't kick off a big argument, and in the long run you'll be happier too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:27, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::I don't think we ''want'' that, though. The solution of "all GoBots compacted onto a few pages for GoBots fiction from the Facebook pages" is a reasonably elegant one, I think, that lets us remain a comprehensive source of Transformers information without being flooded with individual GoBot stubs (due to the fact that a good deal of the Facebook content is as much GoBots as it is Transformers, and the wiki does not consider the former to be a subset of the latter). Scrubbing all GoBots content off entirely would be a bad idea; we shouldn't not cover the likes of Zero, Vamp and Creepy just because they originated in GoBots. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:28, 2 March 2016 (EST) (And I never want to say anything with that density of the word "GoBots in again".)
:::::::::If we were a Beatles compendium, we couldn't get away with "Let's not include Yoko Ono at all because we don't like her involvement in the band." (and no, I'm not comparing anyone to Yoko Ono.) For better or worse, Go-Bots is part of Transformers fiction now, and simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 11:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::::Ding ding ding. Stop letting petty wiki grudges dictate our content. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:47, 2 March 2016 (EST)

::::::::::Ascendron's right. While filling the site with GoBots stubs is undesirable, to ignore them entirely would be to ignore a fairly large chunk of recent Transformers fiction. I think the list article is probably the best solution, and it's one we had already agreed upon, if I remember correctly. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 11:58, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page. That will be then, this is now. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 12:18, 2 March 2016 (EST)

Can't we just get past this bullshit already? Some people on the wiki don't like covering GoBots, but nobody is obligated to respect the supposed "consensus" of some website and we will just have to deal. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:01, 2 March 2016 (EST)

=====Individual Write-Ups=====
OK, we're definitely not deleting, which I agree with. But that brings us to this:
:"simply turning a blind eye to it does little more than leave gaping holes in the website."
How is that not what we're doing by not writing up the characters who appear prominently in this story? Keeping in mind that the previous proposal specifically does not cover this story or anything like it. The intellectual foundation for excluding [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]] is that "it's not Transformers fiction." Leaving aside the sheer absurdity of declaring that licensed fiction about transforming robots published under [[:File:RenegadeRhetoricLogo.jpg|this logo]] with [[:File:RR Title - Opportunity Knocks Part 2.jpg|these]] [[:File:RR Title - Babysitting.jpg|title]] [[:File:RR Title - All Tomorrow's Utopias.jpg|cards]] is somehow "not Transformers fiction", we all, even M Sipher and Walky, agree that '''Echoes and Fragments''' is Transformers fiction. So none of the logic or reasoning for keeping them to one big list applies. The only person who seems to be advocating for "if you don't like it don't cover it" is Jim Sorenson himself, so I again ask, is there any intellectual foundation or argument to not cover characters appearing in this story other than "we don't like them"?

Ascendron, statements like this "Odds are, there will be a day when the list article will be abandoned, as every Go-Bots character will have enough meat to their appearances to warrant its own page." make me think that you're making some kind of notability argument. I went ahead and added Echoes fiction to the existing [[Major Mo]] page, as well as condensing the existing RR fiction and adding the very brief high-level summary of the RR fiction that hadn't yet been documented. I kept the Echoes to an extremely high level, like we're to do with RR fiction. Even with all of his appearances limited to just the bullet points, it's a real and substantial article. It would be much longer if we actually documented his appearances the way we do everything else. Is his article really less substantial than the likes of [[Harcourt]] or [[Marty Cooper]] or [[Roxy Sparkles]] or [[Brawley (ROTF)]] or [[Deep Earth Scout]]?

I get that some people don't like GoBots. I get that people are sick of arguing about it. But at some point, isn't it easier and simpler to just stop putting our fingers in our ears and shouting at the top of our lungs "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU NO GOBOTS HERE" and just treat them exactly like we'd treat any other piece of licensed fiction, and stop making special rules and exclusions for them? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:57, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Because GoBots is a special case, and one of the biggest cases of bad-faith manipulation of the Timelines Facebook pages, and it ''feels wrong'' to give characters full pages because they didn't show up in this given that we're not doing so for Renegade Rhetoric characters. It may not be entirely consistent, but it's also what the opinion of pretty much everyone except you, Giggidy, seems to be. So, if you can convince people to support you, great, but until you can show evidence of consensus we are likely to stick with counting the GoBots characters from this story as a Renegade Rhetoric appearance. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:31, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Is it? You and Chris have chimed in, and that's it. If two people on a random talk page is enough to not cover characters fully, why don't I go over to Kiss Players and start a talk page there and see if I can get two or three people to agree to de-wiki all that stuff?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::And Sipher, and Ascendron has indicated that he'd rather have all GoBots links have to go to Wikipedia than to let this "mess up" the wiki. And, you know, it doesn't even ''matter'' until the list pages are live, so I'm not going to say any more on this subject until it becomes ''actual'' furniture-shuffling, as opposed to just hypothetical. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:02, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::Rather telling that so many folks vote for a "solution" and then make zero effort to implement it. Meanwhile I'd be done updating it by now if people weren't so busy advocating for special exceptions be made and extended rather than just treating this fiction the same way we do everything else, including the German bits that make no sense and the Japanenergy tentacle porn.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:19, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::I get that the consensus is that GoBots fiction from before Hasbro bought Tonka is considered out of bounds here (I don't AGREE with it, but I see no point in continuing that fight). What I DON'T understand is how, given that we've been told that GoBots are their universe's equivalents of Transformers, there is any justification for leaving out any new GB fiction. GBs are TFs now, so new GB fiction IS new TF fiction. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:51, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::I agree, but there's nothing we can do about it at this point. There's a reason the dissenters have stopped replying; they've won, and they know arguing about it futhermore is pointless. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::::::Well, not really. If it's a vote about handling Echoes characters, there is at least as much support for treating them the way we normally do is making a special exception, so it's probably safe to go ahead and do so. On the otber hand, if you're talking about revisiting the Renegade Rhetoric decision, I agree with you that that would be a pointless discussion. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:47, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::::::::And I don't think the "consensus" will change. It's still "eviiiiil maniac Jim out to destroy our poor wiki with GoBots", regardless of the specific label it's under. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:05, 3 March 2016 (EST)

I just wish someone beyond the people who wanted to keep it and those who only wanted it separated because of all the arguing would do something with this list idea, cause I sure as hell don't see anyone arguing against their inclusion since the beginning helping with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:50, 3 March 2016 (EST)

So, at least 4 of us in favor of treating this like any other piece of TF fiction and not saying that it's not Transformers fiction as Renegade Rhetoric is. (Me, Saix, Khajidha, Ascendron per his talk page.) We know Chris disagrees, and Riptide because it ''feels wrong''. Anyone else want to chime in? And is "feels wrong" a precedent we want to set as a reason to exclude content? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:15, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:All I really have to say is that ''if'' we treated it like any other piece of Transformers fiction, we'd have to give everyone who appears in it a page, as per wiki rules. It's kind of arbitrary to say "Major Mo and Alice and Bob appear in this more than anyone else does, so they should get pages but nobody else should". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:36, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::But I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating that characters with a substantial role get a page. It's "kind of arbitrary" to treat this differently than any other piece of crossover fiction too, but I don't see that stopping you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:02, 4 March 2016 (EST)

::There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages and I personally don't mind, but the whole argument on GoBots keeps causing ill-feeling and conflict around here so I'm voting against. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 11:33, 4 March 2016 (GMT)

The previous mandate handed down was about GoBots in general. No one could read it and assume it was specifically about ''Renegade Rhetoric'' and not about other Gobots-material creeping in, particularly not other Gobots-material from the same source in a slightly different format. '''''NO''''', there should '''''NOT''''' be individual pages for GoBot characters who appeared in Echoes and Fragments.

And Giggidy, by leading the charge on this, you've really shown that you learned ''nothing'' from the last AVP fiasco about how to usefully contribute to the Wiki. This is...the worst thing you could have done. Honestly. The worst. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 07:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|previous mandate]] specifically stated "since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become GoBots fiction, not Transformers fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from Challenge of the GoBots "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki" I don't see how anyone could read that as anything other than what it says. It says Renegade Rehetoric has become GoBots fiction which we don't cover. Echoes and Fragments everyone agrees is Transformers fiction. Ergo it has nothing to do with Chris' proposal. Note Charles above, "There is no objective, wiki-rule reason for not creating pages," or even Ripclaw on [http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-162 Allspark:] "I... can't really come up with a cohesive argument against it, so...". I [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of|even asked Chris]], who authored the proposal, if my understanding was correct, and he said it was. I cannot understand what possible reasoning there is beyond "we don't like it" which was explicitly rejected above, and apparently neither can anyone else. We're literally taking a story everyone agrees is Transformers fiction and not covering the main character, who is also on the cover, because some OTHER DIFFERENT GoBots story is "not Transformers" despite being branded as such. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

Upthread, Jim says he's been writing GoBots into his stories since 2010. The article says this story was published in 2008. The article was created 3 days ago. Something doesn't add up. I've watched with great appreciation as McFeely continues to develop his master list of GoBot pages. Once those go live, 90+% of the current GoBot stand-alone pages will get the immediate, permanent, and incontestable deletion they deserve, and there will be no more shadows of loopholes that might confuse new readers about our policies.

And honestly, if people keep pushing the envelope I suspect it would really fucking backfire. We were sick of this shit already YEARS ago. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:10, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:The article says the story was published in 2016. I think Jim is probably referring to [[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:09, 4 March 2016 (EST)

=====I capitulate=====
Fine. Even though there is zero intellectual coherence behind the position of not covering the characters in this story, I'll stop arguing because again I'm inexplicably in the minority. All I was suggesting was that we handle this story exactly like we handle every other crossover story. I didn't agree with the ruling on Renegade Rhetoric not being Transformers fiction, but I respected that there was a solid foundation for it. This decision has no foundation aside from "we don't like it" which is a terrible reason not to cover the licensed branded fiction. And since Sorenson has stated that there's more GoBots fiction coming in the future, I look forward to the NEXT argument when people try to stretch the fig-leaf of "we don't like it" to cover more and more. Because you know it's coming. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:29, 4 March 2016 (EST)

==== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ====

[[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive61#We.27re_all_sick_of_arguing_about_GoBots|The existing rule was:]] "I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles"

That caused a lot of argument over [[Echoes and Fragments]], since most people did not want to create new pages for each named character even though 'legally' it's fine. This is going to come up again when new GoBots appears in a Transformers fanfic (and Macrocosmic Seekers is all about that).

At this point, might be worth altering the law to "who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories with a moderate-to-large role in Transformers fanfiction" i.e. [[Major Mo]] is fine because he had a big role in Echoes but Back Grounder the Rock Lord who was only mentioned briefly in a crowd scene is not. That seems to be the spirit of the law. - [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 17:27, 4 March 2016 (GMT)
:I vote no. "GoBots characters and concepts who have not appeared outside of Facebook-based media do not get their own pages" is a reasonable policy without loopholes. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 12:52, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::That's the crux of this all, so if it gets people to shut up about this forever, please, for the love of God. Stuff that has appeared or been mentioned in other media will still get appropriate pages—nobody has ever argued against that. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:18, 4 March 2016 (EST)
:::Agree with Riptide. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:34, 4 March 2016 (EST)
::::I think this is a terrible, terrible rule and an awful precedent, but it is at least honest and non-subjective. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:23, 4 March 2016 (EST)

So, that's the concensus. The rule is "GoBots and major associated characters who appear only on Facebook pages get the list treatment." The justification is that GoBots is a frequent source of arguments and the hope is a simple, unambiguous rule will curtail these arguments. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:07, 5 March 2016 (EST)

I would like some clarification: once the master lists go up and many GoBot articles are deleted/redirected, what about the Renegade Rhetoric fiction sections on the pages which stay, e.g. [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]] or [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]]? It is my understanding that we are minimizing ''Challenge of the GoBots'' season 1 content to summaries, but what of "season 2" adventures? Can any of it go on the wiki? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 02:17, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:As I've been reading it, RR has been de-credentialed and will be purged, completely. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:01, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::I wasn't sure either, so I asked Chris up above in the ''Question about GoBots'' block, and he confirmed my understanding, which is this: '''For the characters who appear in crossover fiction, their Renegade Rhetoric adventures get a brief write-up with link to RR archive.''' So, Renegade Rhetoric adventures do count, but get written up in a truncated way. I've been meaning to get to everyone, but have been busy with school. When [[Puzzler]] got mentioned in [[High Noon]] I did a pass on him, which shows about the level I think was authorized for Renegade Rhetoric write-ups. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:40, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
Does ''Echoes and Fragments'' count as a piece of crossover fiction? Because that gives... like... ''every'' GoBot a sentence or two of "screen-time", which might throw a wrench in the plan. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:10, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:We've decided that the Facebook fiction in general does not "count" enough to give GoBots characters their own pages, unless they have appeared in non-Facebook-based fiction. We probably should give Puzzler his own page, but ehh. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:34, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
::It's a strange place we find ourselves in. The original justification of not wikifying Renegade Rhetoric was that it's somehow technically not Transformers fiction. That went out the window with '''[[Echoes and Fragments]]''', so Chris [[User talk:Chris McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|basically said]] that the goal was to keep GoBots footprint to a minimum regardless of their appearances in unambiguously Transformers fiction. The new rule is that Facebook appearances don't count towards whether or not a character gets a page, because we don't like GoBots/they cause too many arguments. But if/when they show up elsewhere the Facebook stuff gets written up. So, I expect many more pages like Puzzler, where there's a one-sentence mention from some other fiction and then four or five paragraphs of Facebook stuff. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 12:50, 31 March 2016 (EDT)
:See prior discussion on [[Talk:Echoes and Fragments]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

==TL;DR==
''[[GoBots]] (and related characters/ideas) who appear in non-Facebook Transformers crossovers get full write-ups, because that's how we handle all crossovers. GoBots who appear exclusively in FunPub Facebook pages (i.e. [[Ask Vector Prime]]), get no write-ups, because we don't like GoBots on the wiki / they cause too many arguments. GoBots who appear in both get full crossover write-ups, but only limited [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric]] write-ups because we consider Renegade Rhetoric to be non-Transformers fiction.''

== The current state of Shoutwiki and the IDW comic's impact on this discussion WARNING SPOILERS FOR THE IDW COMIC ==

So, with the Go-Bots comic and the current state of both of our sister wikis, I think it's time to re-examine our options. Now before this gets out of hand, I just want to clarify: I am NOT advocating for both of them to be folded into TFWiki.net at the time being. What I want is to look at what we have now and see how we can improve. Also spoilers for the Tom Scioli series.

So, first off, with the ShoutWiki bit:

For nearly a year, both of the wiki's have had very little activity. IDW Hasbro has had slightly more activity, but much of that has petered off recently, at least. Part of that, I have always felt, is due to a lack of good advertisement on TFWiki. It took, give or take, over half of a year for the GoBots and IDW Hasbro Wiki to receive any acknowledgement on our main page that wasn't the consistently changing "disambiguration" bit, and even then they're not particularly noticeable. Now, we could say this is due to a lack of interest, which for GoBots, I could have seen prior to the IDW comic, but I don't think that makes sense for the IDW Hasbro wiki. Additional issues include:

1. The mass amount of spambots and non-user editors. We have no control over ShoutWiki like we do with TFWiki. As such, spambots are still quite rampant in comparison, and IP address-based users are still active. This is undesirable for many reasons.

2. The problem of Wikia/Fandom. As we know, Gamepedia was recently bought out by Wikia/Fandom. Now, I won't pretend I have any idea how that works, but knowing how awful Fandom is today, I would worry about any possibility that ShoutWiki would suffer the same fate. And as we've seen with Mirage's posts on the Allspark Forums thread for the GoBots wiki, Fandom's current management is beyond screwed up.

On the comics front themselves (SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE COMIC FROM HERE ON OUT):

1. The comic connects them to the Transformers. As seen in the end of issues, the GoBots are depicted as the creators of the Transformers, connecting them once more. Now, when even the comic produced by Hasbro's main go-to comic company, written by someone not too heavily involved in the fandom, connects them to the Transformers, it's worth re-examining.

2. The comic's legal info. Now, a big part of the position against putting them on the Wiki is that it seemed that Hasbro was unwilling to use the GoBots beyond slight homages. Possible reasons for this include the idea that Hasbro only owns the names, and that other parts are still owned by Bandai and Warner Bros. Now, the indicia for the Go-Bots comic only has Hasbro listed in the legal bit. The comic uses characters from the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, and everyone is drawn faithfully to the Bandai toys. It would seem that Hasbro is much more confident on their ownership of the characters than they were 2-3 years ago.

Now, to examine our options:

1. We fold these wikis into ours. Again, I am NOT advocating for this. That being said, gained advantages include: better prevention of spambots; being on this wiki, my hypothesis is that there would be a lot more attraction to create these articles than there are now for the two out of the way ones; and we wouldn't have someone selling off out wiki to a ponzi scheme disguised as a "community".

2. We create new wikis we own ourselves. Personally, I'm all for that, but there are several problems. A lot of the people involved with the set up of this wiki aren't really around anymore or are inactive. There aren't very many beyond abates that I can think of who have good backgrounds in the more technical side of stuff, but I could be forgetting some. Additionally, there would be more money to pay to have 3 sites up, and I understand that is a lot to ask for. Additionally, without better advertising, we'd run into the same problem we haven now. There might be other stuff but again, I'm no tech wizard.

3. We get better advertising for our two Shoutwiki and hope for the best. Probably the easiest of the three options, and the least costly/headache inducing. The only problem is still the spambots and the chance that Wikia will buy ShoutWiki out.

In any case, I wanted to bring this stuff up after talking with several friends about the states of our 2 sister wikis; this is not me trying to reopen old wounds. I hope that is clear. If I am unclear about anything I am willing to clarify-been busy with final exams for school which is why I'm only now getting to this after having wanted to bring it up for a while, and it's hard to focus during this crunch. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 4 May 2019 (EDT)

== Is the sister Wiki still a thing? ==

Just spend a day or two editing the Gobot wiki before I stumbled on this discussion... is the sister wiki still an ongoing concern or has it been abandoned by the admins? Part of me wants to do much, much more as the Gobots side of the thing really needs some work but I don't want to waste time on it (well, beyond that any wiki editing is a waste of time) if it's wound down.

[[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 09:49, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:We still link to it on our main page here. It's just that there simply hasn't much interest in it as of late. Most of the activity was brought on in response to Fun Pub's Renegade Rhetoric generating a renewed interest in GoBots, but which has since died down. There was the IDW GoBots mini-series that sparked a new interest, but that's wound down since too. GoBots just doesn't have the fire and staying power to keep most people's interest in it perpetually ongoing, but that doesn't mean we've abandoned GBWiki. If you're interested in working on it, then by all means have at it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:43, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
:It's worth remembering that the people currently running TFWiki didn't create it--they found a dilapidated Transformers wiki in the wild, and nursed it to health, until it became the powerhouse it is today. Even if the people currently there have lost interest, there's always a chance that your work could give it the second wind it needs to become a vital resource. --[[User:Wack'd|Wack'd]] ([[User talk:Wack'd|talk]]) 12:31, 21 July 2021 (EDT)
::As long as it's not going to somehow expire in a puff of 404s in a week's time (I have no idea how hosting of Wikias works) I'm more than happy chugging away, just didn't want to bother if I'd missed something. TVM guys [[User:Shadow XGX-9|Shadow XGX-9]] ([[User talk:Shadow XGX-9|talk]]) 12:42, 21 July 2021 (EDT)

==Revisiting our organizational schema==
Over the last six years or so, we have had a steady influx of what I am going to call "outside" content that is only tangentially relevant to the ''Transformers'' franchise as a whole—''MASK'', ''Micronauts'', ''Visionaries'', ''Star Trek'', ''Ghostbusters'', ''Terminator'', ''Back to the Future'', and two ''My Little Pony'' crossovers with a possible third volume on the way. It is clear that Hasbro and its licensees are open to the idea of multiple franchises and outside properties coexisting with the Transformers, and our wiki policy up to this point has generally been amenable to the idea of treating these characters the way we would any other character: an individual wiki article that documents their characterization and their role in any given story, regardless of how major or minor that role is. (See also: [[Slywire]], [[Arex (Star Trek)|Arex]], [[Killerwatt]], [[Doctor Hooves]], etc.)

There is one exception to the way that we treat these crossover characters: due to the controversies surrounding the "Renegade Rhetoric" era, we currently do not give the majority of [[Guardian (GoBots)|Guardian]]s and [[Renegade]]s their own individual pages, and have currently amalgamated the vast majority of these redirects onto a single table.

It is true that our current organizational schema regarding the GoBots was born out of a sense of frustration regarding the ongoing "wiki-gaming" situation at the time regarding Renegade Rhetoric and Ask Vector Prime. However, with every new IDW crossover or Collaborative toy--and ''especially'' given the recent [[Go-Bots (comic)|Go-Bots]] comic, which was not a strict crossover, but very strongly implied a connection between the GoBots and the Cybertronian race--the way that we handle GoBot coverage on the wiki feels increasingly unhelpful and antiquated. Now that we've had five years of constant crossovers and also time to look back on our decisions with a cooler head, I am proposing that we shift back to our pre-"Renegade Rhetoric"-era method of covering these characters by giving them their own individual pages and treating them the way we would any other faction.

I am open to discussion as to whether or not we should include "Renegade Rhetoric" writeups, or even possibly a fiction writeup regarding their activities in the Scioli series--though I will remind users that we do have the GBwiki established already as a way to absorb out-of-universe . However, I feel that "Echoes and Fragments" should absolutely be covered on their respective pages, the way we'd cover any IDW crossover. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:06, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Yes. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I'm ambivalent as, like you said, the fact these characters are mentioned on the wiki at all ''is'' because of that aforementioned wiki-gaming, and I'm not convinced the pages would be worth much. I wouldn't fight it, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:25, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Our system is just fine as-is and I see no reason to change it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::What, if anything, distinguishes GoBots that makes the Guardians and Renegades unavailble for articles, but the near 100 ponies eligible? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:43, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::There wasn't a decade of people ignoring and gaslighting our judgments, cheating the wiki's criteria, and personally insulting anyone who tried to stop them over My Little Pony. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:50, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
::::All of that is addressed in the post. The way it is now, we are actively limiting information due to fights from half a decade ago. If and/or when there is an IDW comic crossing over the two, we'll have to drop the facade, one that's already being called into question. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:17, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::So let's wait for the crossover and change our system "if and/or when" it ever happens. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:Would "Gobots pages that would have more than just a single Renegade Rhetoric section can exist, while those that wouldn't stay in list hell until such time as they would" be an acceptable compromise here? That would pages that exist that have good reason to, without reinstating wiki-gaming from five years ago. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:34, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:(There's probably a case to be made for Echoes and Fragments being an exception, since it's essentially a full-on prose story rather than just "someone asked cy-kill if knew bob the go-bot and he said yes", but i'm not gonna argue that one too heavily) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:36, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

TFWiki's current policy towards GoBots reflects the franchise's status in 2004 - 2007, when it was seen as an external brand like My Little Pony or Starriors. Gobots were a separate species from a parallel universe with a different, partially organic physiology. But beginning in 2010 we saw the first hints of change as the Allspark Almanac 2 revealed that in some Alternate Universes, Gobots characters simply ''were'' Transformers. By 2015-2016 official publications revealed that they were just a highly divergent version of the Transformer species and started presenting new stories featuring them, generated by Hasbro and representing the brand in this new shared context.

Things '''changed.''' I'm not saying that we necessarily have to alter our policy, but we do have to acknowledge that the status of GoBots relative to Transformers has changed. If we do choose to integrate it any further into the wiki it will ''not'' be because the people demanding it all those years ago were "right," because the brand ''as it existed at that time'' did not warrant inclusion.

I have wrestled with this one and come down on either side but, for me, this is the critical factor:
'''The Evil One''' from GoBots is '''the Fallen'''. Same dude. Multiversal singularity. They are Transformers, full stop. They merit inclusion.

(I'm also going to be a jerk and say the events of ''Challenge of the GoBots'' should ''not'' be covered by the wiki, just because I'm a difficult asshole. All of the important stuff from the cartoon was represented in Renegade Rhetoric anyway.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 23:16, 1 August 2021 (EDT)

Dan DiDio

2020-02-21T21:57:44Z

Derik: Ding Dong, Bing Bong

{{disambig3|Dan}}

[[Image:DanDiDio.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Dr. Phil really has it out for anything after 1986.]]
'''Dan DiDio''' (born [[October 13]], [[1959]]) was an executive at [[Mainframe Entertainment]] assigned to the ''[[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' franchise during the third season of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]''. Dan is best known for being the producer who informed [[Marv Wolfman]] that ''Beast Wars'' had no ties to the original series and to do as he pleased with [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity]] when outlining ''[[Beast Machines: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', and then instructed [[Bob Skir]] and [[Marty Isenberg]] to disregard any previous incarnations of the series in writing ''Beast Machines'', as ''Beast Wars'' was too "continuity-heavy".<ref>''Beast Machines'' DVD supplementary materials</ref>

DiDio later served as both Co-Publisher (along with [[Jim Lee]]) and Senior Vice President — Executive Editor, DC Universe, for DC Comics, ending in February 2020.

==Footnotes==
<references />

{{DEFAULTSORT:Dido, Dan}}
[[Category:Executives]]
[[Category:Mainframe Entertainment]]

File:Predacon symbol.png

2020-02-15T03:04:10Z

Derik: Derik uploaded a new version of "File:Predacon symbol.png": This used ot be a transparent png without jaggies. At some point (after Bookworm?) it became a flattened image, then a jaggy png, both at tiny size. I'm restoring from the original

The Predacon symbol, in blue (its RiD colors)
{{insignia}}
Copyright 1996, Hasbro
{{Templatepic|Factions}}

Trump Tower

2020-02-09T06:00:32Z

Derik:

[[File:DOTM Trump Tower.jpg|thumb|right|300px|We need to build a wall, and the Decepticons must pay for it!]]
'''Trump Tower''' is a tall glass building in [[Chicago]].

{{quote
|"Precisely calibrated responses to uncertain information are not always Sentinel Prime's strong point."
|[[Nautica (G1)|Nautica]] reflects on her orange leader
|[[Nautica: Home]]
|noquote=true
}}

==Fiction==
===''Dark of the Moon''===
[[Dylan Gould]] maintained a lower penthouse apartment in Trump Tower. After kidnapping [[Carly Spencer]], he took her there to keep her prisoner while he, [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]], and the [[Decepticon]]s set up the [[Pillar]]s. They had a magnificent view from there of the Decepticon conquest of Chicago. [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] and [[Sam Witwicky]] later turned up in a [[Orbital Assault Carrier|stolen Decepticon fighter]], and after rescuing Carly, used the craft's guns to perforate the apartment. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon}}

==External links==
*[http://www.trumphotelcollection.com/chicago/ Trump International Hotel & Tower]
*{{w|Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)|Trump International Hotel and Tower}} on Wikipedia

[[Category:Dark of the Moon locations]]

Main Page/featured-article

2019-03-18T20:55:30Z

Derik: Let's Larry this up.

<div style="float:right;margin-left:1em">
[[File:LarrydfromrhinoDVD.jpg|250px|1940-2019. He will be missed.]]
</div>


'''[[Larry DiTillio]]''' was an American TV and tabletop RPG writer. From 1996 to 2000, he and Bob Forward were the story editors of the influential [[Beast_Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]] television series, and he personally wrote eleven episodes.

In the 1980s, he was one of the key writers and a co-creator of She-Ra with J. Michael Straczynski, who credited him as "the brains behind much of the He-Man mythos. Tabletop RPG fans know him as the author of ''Masks of Nyarlathotep'', a campaign book for the Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game, which is widely considered to be one of the greatest RPG campaigns ever written.


'''[[Larry DiTillio|continued...]]'''

{{-}}
<noinclude>

[[Category: Main Page templates]]
</noinclude>

User talk:Derik

2019-03-17T04:32:42Z

Derik: /* "Pre-Requiem continuity" */

User talk:Derik

2019-03-16T23:35:16Z

Derik: /* "Pre-Requiem continuity" */

User talk:Derik

2019-03-16T18:55:18Z

Derik: /* "Pre-Requiem continuity" */

User talk:Derik

2019-03-15T00:54:06Z

Derik: /* "Pre-Requiem continuity" */

Brainstorm (G1)

2019-03-14T17:16:59Z

Derik: /* IDW comics */ *shot across the bow*

{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Brainstorm}}
{{suite}}
:''Brainstorm is an [[Autobot]] [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] and one of the most <s>famous</s> notorious inventors from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
[[File:Brainstormg1.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|If a job's worth doing, it's worth OVERDOING!]]
'''Brainstorm''' (aka '''Genitus'''<ref name="genitus">"Genitus" was Brainstorm's original name in the [[IDW Generation 1 continuity]]. First alluded to in ''[[The Reluctant Specialist|Spotlight: Trailcutter]]'' when [[Chromedome (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity|Chromedome]] clarified that "Brainstorm" was essentially just a "nickname", it was eventually revealed in ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]'' [[Our Steps Will Always Rhyme|#40]] to be "Genitus of Operation: Solar Storm".</ref> and '''Charon'''<ref name="charon">"Charon" was a subsitute name for the ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' Brainstorm toy from the "Titan Force" three-pack, which only affected the official Hasbro-approved United Kingdom release of the set through A1 Toys, via an applied sticker featuring the new name covering up the name "Brainstorm", because the latter was already [[trademark]]ed by an actual toy company named "Brainstorm" in the UK. The United States [[Hasbro Toy Shop]]/[[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2016 exclusive release and the Canadian and Asian market releases of the set didn't require a stickered up name, and just called the toy "Brainstorm" as originally intended.</ref>) is a never-ending font of ideas. Whether he's in the middle of a battle or consciously working on another of his projects, new ideas are the background noise of his mind, sometimes to such an extent that his brain will overheat. In his zeal to see these ideas realized, Brainstorm sometimes forgets about things like "basic safety" and "proper experimental procedure". He will happily hand out new and untested inventions to less-than-responsible comrades for field-testing. His inventions range from useful biotechnology, to [[Metafictional bomb|outlandish anti-personnel weaponry]], to [[Time case|devices that harness the bizarre and unthinkable]].

Brainstorm is at least partly responsible for developing the [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] process. It's sometimes hard to tell how much of it was his doing and how much was his Headmaster partner [[Arcana]]'s, the two work together so seamlessly.

{{note|Brainstorm was quite different in Japan's [[Transformers: The Headmasters (cartoon)|''The Headmasters'' animated series]]. See below for details.}}

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics====
{{noteukonly}}
[[File:Brainstormtrialbyfire.jpg|left|upright=1.4|thumb|He's green, dammit! Green!]]
After [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] and his troops aboard the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] went missing, Brainstorm was one of several under the leadership of [[Fortress Maximus (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Fortress Maximus]]. Their faction was mired in a seemingly endless war with a band of [[Decepticon]]s led by [[Scorponok (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Scorponok]], in a struggle so pointless and self-perpetuating that Fortress Maximus decided to leave [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and its war and settle on the peaceful planet [[Nebulos]]. Brainstorm followed Fortress Maximus' lead, building the ''[[Steelhaven (G1)|Steelhaven]]'' and departing their war-torn home.

It would not be so easy. The [[Nebulan]]s were xenophobic towards the strange robots which invaded their world, and after several missteps in communication, Fortress Maximus, Brainstorm, and a handful of others surrendered their heads as hopeful proof of their benevolence and compliance. {{storylink|Ring of Hate!}}

[[File:Brainstormworldsapart.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Brainstorm would rather fight and die than live with the knowledge that he ran.]]
When the Decepticons arrived on Nebulos, Fortress Maximus and Brainstorm's heads convinced [[Galen]] to attempt the creation of hybrid warriors through a bio-mechanical engineering process. An experimental surgeon named [[Arcana]] constructed the necessary equipment based on the Autobots' theories and underwent the process himself along with several other Nebulans, [[binary bonding]] with Brainstorm. Together, the Autobots and their Nebulan partners were able to force the aggressors into a retreat, with Brainstorm and Arcana taking on Scorponok himself during the skirmish. {{storylink|Broken Glass!}} ''During his recollection of this battle, [[Stylor]] pointed out that Arcana and Brainstorm had been especially effective thanks to their amazing speed.'' {{storylink|Stylor's Story}}

''During an adventure that happened at some unspecified point that was logically impossible given the circumstances, Brainstorm and the other Autobot Headmasters fought the Decepticon [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]] while the Autobot [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmasters]] were held captive by the Decepticons. Mindwipe hypnotized Brainstorm, causing him to crash into [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]], but the others were able to pick up the slack and overcome the enemy. Despite the victory coming a bit too easily, Brainstorm insisted they press on, as the Autobot Targetmasters were being held as Decepticon prisoners. The four attacked the Decepticons' [[Fortress of Despair]] where Brainstorm quickly located the captive Autobots, only to be ambushed by Scorponok and more of his lackeys. The Autobots learned that the Decepticons had thrown the earlier fight to lure them into Scorponok's trap; he was having trouble replicating the Headmaster process, and he planed to dissect them to work out its finer intricacies. Though overwhelmed at first, the Headmasters managed to free their brethren, bolstering their numbers. Because the Autobots learned to work together with their new Nebulan partners, they were able to send Scorponok fleeing.'' {{storylink|Worlds Apart!}}

The Decepticons continued to sow destruction across the globe, and next attacked the city-resort of [[Splendora]]. Brainstorm and Hardhead assisted the Technobots in defeating both the Terrorcons and Horrorcons there, though Splendora lay in ruins in the battle's aftermath. Following this pyrrhic victory, the Autobots came under heavy scrutiny from the Nebulan authorities. While Arcana and the others met with representatives from Nebulos's Council of Peers, they received a message alerting them that [[Zarak (G1)|Lord Zarak]] was among a group taken captive by the Decepticons. The Headmasters once more sped off to meet the Decepticons in battle and rescue their captives. Upon their arrival however, the Autobots realized that the "captives" had allied themselves with Scorponok, forming a new team of evil Headmasters! In the battle that ensued, Brainstorm was defeated by a shot to the chest. {{storylink|Love and Steel!}} The new Headmasters managed to drive off the Decepticons, but also inadvertently created a new "arms race", as the Decepticons later created Headmasters of their own, and both sides also implemented Targetmaster warriors as well. {{storylink|Brothers in Armor!!}}

''Fortress Maximus once made a vid-phone call to Brainstorm and Arcana's workshop, and the two eggheads managed to invent a new, smaller, and more efficient vid-phone between the conversation's beginning and its end. They later worked together to design a fuel convertor to get the Autobots to Earth aboard ''Steelhaven''. However, this device was stolen through Decepticon trickery.'' {{storylink|The Final Conflict}}

{{note|The events in this UK story differ in significant ways to the [[The Transformers: Headmasters|Headmasters]] mini-series.}}

Fearing things could only get worse for Nebulos, Fortress Maximus and Galen took the excuse of an intercepted distress signal from Earth to abandon Nebulos and prevent the war from causing any further harm to the planet. {{storylink|Brothers in Armor!!}}

On the way to Earth, Brainstorm and Chromedome worked together to re-engineer Fortress Maximus to be larger and stronger than ever before. Their leader now a veritable war machine, Brainstorm put Galen through the paces of testing out his new form. Then, he and Arcana managed to triangulate the Autobot signal to [[Mount St. Hilary]]. Meeting up with [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Goldbug]] there (who's mind had been transplanted into a [[Toy Soldiers!|toy car]]) and learning from him that his human friend had been captured by the Decepticons, Brainstorm suggested they rescue the "Earthen." But Maximus was eager to instead continue seeking out their fellow Autobots. [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]], the aforementioned human's older brother, emerged from a hiding spot, and implored the Autobots to help in finding his [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|younger sibling]]. Despite refusing him outright at first, Maximus fought to defend the boy from the Decepticons when they too arrived on Earth. This led to the death of Galen, and Spike taking over as controller of Fortress Maximus. {{storylink|Trial by Fire!}}

As the ''Steelhaven'' orbited the Earth, Brainstorm was kept busy building [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Goldbug]] a new body and repairing the injured Fortress Maximus. Goldbug was completed first, and so Brainstorm advised him to head out into the field when the Autobots intercepted a call made on behalf of "Optimus Prime," the legendary Autobot leader long-thought dead. Goldbug reported more than just making contact with Optimus: he also beamed back data from the Decepticons' genetics lab, detailing how to create [[Pretender]] warriors. Brainstorm enlisted six volunteers to undergo the process, and with them created the Autobot Pretenders. {{storylink|Pretender to the Throne!}} Unfortunately, Brainstorm's projects used up most of the group's available resources and prevented the proper recreation of Optimus Prime. The project proceeded despite Brainstorm's accurate warnings of failure. Afterwards, Maximus's crew made contact with another team of Autobots, under the leadership of [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]. The latter proved to be overtly hostile and eager to defend his position as supreme leader of the Autobots. Brainstorm was forced to watch as the cruel [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobot]] took [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Goldbug]] prisoner, seeing as the little 'bot was considered a fugitive from his forces. But a challenger soon arose to contest Grimlock's position, and Brainstorm was audience to Blaster battling the Dinobot on the surface of the Earth's moon. The proceedings were interrupted by a Decepticon attack, which convinced the two duelists to momentarily put their differences aside to lead the troops together, allowing the Autobots to send [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]'s forces into a retreat. {{storylink|Totaled!}}

[[File:Tastybrainstorm.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Can Unicron detect how much cinnamon is packed into every bite of Brainstorm?]]
''Brainstorm was displaced to [[Limbo]] along with a handful of other Autobots when [[Hot Rod (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Rodimus Prime]] traveled to the past with a group of Autobots of his own.'' {{storylink|Time Wars}} Later, he was one of the victims of a rogue Autobot [[Guardian (Marvel)|Mark V Guardian droid]], which resulted in him being thrown from the Ark and landing at the feet of Optimus Prime. Brainstorm's flaming body helped contribute to the Autobot leader regaining his desire to fight. {{storylink|Yesterday's Heroes!}}

Brainstorm was killed when [[Unicron]] ravaged Cybertron in [[1991]]. Even Brainstorm's vast intellect failed him when confronted with the devil himself, so he simply screamed and shot desperately until Unicron scooped him up and ate him. By Unicron's own admission, Brainstorm was quite tasty. {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}}
{{-}}

====''Regeneration One''====
{{noterg1}}
[[File:Brainstorm project lazarus loose ends.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|"I've been asleep ''how long''?! Why did I even invent the alarm clock if no one's going to ''freaking set it''?!]]
Twenty-one years after the death of Arcana and destruction of Brainstorm's original body, Nebulos had signed an [[Interplanetary Trade Treaty]] with Cybertron, which included [[Project Lazarus]]—a project to build new bodies for the original heads of the now-deceased Headmasters. Grimlock reviewed transmissions in which Senior Scientist [[Borx]] explained that the initial attempts had led to extreme pain and complete rejection of the new bodies, including footage of a disastrous attempt at integrating Brainstorm's head with a new body, until data from Zarak's old files improved the process. {{storylink|Loose Ends, Part 2}}

[[File:Autobot headmasters natural selecton.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|"They took off my faceplate and painted me blue."]]
However, this "unauthorised" decryption awakened the original head of Scorponok. Aided by knowledge gleamed from his binary bond with the deceased Zarak, he was able to enslave the Nebulans, complete Project Lazarus, and have them build a "mint replica of [his] original body". {{storylink|Natural Selection, Part One}} With the aid of Grimlock's [[Nucleon (substance)|Nucleon]]-soaked [[CNA]], who he had captured while seeking a new body for himself and the other Nucleon victims, he completed another project—to create a "[[Gene Key]]" which could mute the consciences of Autobots, turning them into "Decepticons". The rebuilt Brainstorm—whose faceplate had apparently been forcibly removed, leaving a discolored lower face—was one of the three subjects he demonstrated this on, along with [[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]] and [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]], and as soon as they were freed, they proceeded to attack Grimlock for wearing an Autobot symbol. After Brainstorm had been chucked around a bit by Grimlock, Scorponok stopped them, as Grimlock was now working for him under blackmail anyway. They proceeded to travel to Cybertron to begin converting the populace into Decepticons. As soon as they landed at [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]]'s [[Civil Defense Hub]], the twisted Autobots shot the shocked [[Slapdash (G1)|Slapdash]] in the face. Leaving him for dead, they then marched in and began killing [[Cybertronian Civil Defense|Civil Defense Force]] members until the coast was clear for Scorponok. {{storylink|Natural Selection, Part Two}}

[[File:Autobot headmasters destiny.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8]]
Later, he stormed through Iacon, turning Autobots with the Gene Key, blindsiding [[Overdrive]] amongst others. As the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibot]] roared away, eager to cause chaos, Brainstorm turned on Grimlock, who had been wandering the city searching for the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]], telling him that Scorponok had ordered him back to the Civil Defense Hub and escorting him there. Scorponok sought to assure himself of the Dinobot's loyaly, and so ordered Grimlock to execute [[Punch (G1)|Punch]], who was immune to the key's effect, while the others looked on. Ultimately, Grimlock found himself unable to go through with the deed. {{storylink|Natural Selection, Part Three}} Grimlock escaped, but was soon found again, now accompanied by the other Dinobots at the Nursery. Brainstorm, [[Darkwing (G1)|Darkwing]], and [[Dreadwind (G1)|Dreadwind]] readied to execute them, but on their arrival, Grimlock shot open the containment capsule holding [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]]. With his temperature spiking to dangerous levels, owing to his Nucleon exposure, Inferno begged them to get clear to no avail—as Grimlock intended, the resulting blast incapacitated Brainstorm and the two Decepticons. {{storylink|Natural Selection, Part Four}}

Ultimately, [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] corrupted Scorponok's "master" Gene Key, intended to convert holdouts across the whole planet, and all the affected were converted back into "Autobots", including Brainstorm. {{storylink|Natural Selection, Part Five}} Though they wouldn't have been held accountable for their actions while altered by the Gene Key, the three former Headmasters turned themselves in to be tried as war criminals, unable to live with the thought of what they were capable of. {{storylink|Destiny, Part One}} Despite this, Brainstorm and the others stepped forward to defend Cybertron when Bludgeon and the Warworld attacked. {{storylink|Destiny, Part Four}}

Brainstorm later took part in the assault on Jhiaxus's [[Hub (G2)|Hub Network]] but was then captured and held at the [[Corral]], and later executed along with [[Joyride (G1)|Joyride]], [[Sky High (Pretender)|Sky High]], and [[Crosshairs (G1)|Crosshairs]] when Rodimus couldn't call off the Wreckers. {{storylink|The War to End All Wars, Part 4}}
{{-}}

===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Michael Bell]] (English), [[Hiroshi Naka]] (Japanese)}}
[[File:Brainstormspike.jpg|upright=1.4|thumb|"Okay, we'll become Headmasters, but you gotta take the old man."]]Brainstorm was first seen on Cybertron, touting his new theory that an integration of human and Autobot would dramatically enhance their fighting abilities. Most of the other Autobots, though, thought he was a crackpot. Things turned around when he and a group of Autobots met a band of freedom fighters while stranded on the planet Nebulos. With several comrades kidnapped and the safety of the <s>MacGuffin</s> [[Key to the Plasma Energy Chamber|key]] to the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] in jeopardy, the Autobots arranged to bond with the Nebulan soldiers. Their heads were reconstructed to accommodate Nebulan passengers and then "transform" around their partners as personal battle armor. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 1}}

[[File:Brainstormrebirthvehicle.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Uh, Arcana, he has a cockpit.]]
With the help of their partners, the Autobot Headmasters freed their comrades and drove off the Decepticons. Unfortunately, their foes then joined forces with the freedom fighters' enemies, a group of evil machinesmiths called the [[Hive (G1)|Hive]]. Along with recreating the same Headmaster process performed by the Autobots, they also created a new form of binary bonding called Targetmasters. The revitalized Decepticons returned and engaged the Autobots in battle anew, resulting in an enraged Brainstorm declaring his intent to sue them for stealing his idea. [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]] detected the key on Brainstorm and managed to disarm him. Several Hive agents then swarmed Brainstorm and removed the key from him, but he was able to run a full spectrum exo-scan on [[Nightstick (G1)|Nightstick]], one of the Targetmaster partners, before they got away. With that information, Brainstorm was able to recreate the Targetmaster process for the Autobots. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 2}}

Returning to Cybertron in pursuit of the key and the new Decepticon city-base, Scorponok, Brainstorm and the others joined forces with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]], and their partners were instrumental in reversing the chamber's power to usher in a new [[Golden Age]] for Cybertron. In the aftermath, Brainstorm and the Headmasters returned to Nebulos to clear out the Hive's machines and restore the planet to peace and prosperity. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 3}}

====''Wings Universe''====
{{Wingsnote}}
[[File:FlashForward3-Headmasters.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1|Brainstorm has a crippling fear of cows.]]
Following [[Hi-Q]]'s kidnapping, Brainstorm turned out with Highbrow, [[Crosshairs (G1)|Crosshairs]], and Chromedome to brief [[Pyro (G1)|Pyro]]'s team. {{storylink|A Flash Forward, Part 3}}
{{-}}

===Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
{{note|In Japan, "Brainstorm" is the name for the combined small head-robot and [[transtector]] body. When separated from the large, lifeless robot body, the head unit is called '''Cana'''.}}

====''The Headmasters'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Ryōichi Tanaka]] (Japanese)|[[John Culkin]] (English, Omni Productions dub)}}
[[File:Headmasters tf stuck.jpg|thumb|230px]]
Four million years ago, Brainstorm was one of a number of [[Cyberdroid|small Cybertronians]] who left [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] in search of a new home. {{storylink|The Mystery of Planet Master}} they ended up crashlanding on [[Master (planet)|Master]], an inhospitable world with harsh weather conditions and a hostile environment, forcing them to rapidly advance in technology to survive. Brainstorm was among those to become a Headmaster, mastering the art of [[transformation|transforming]] so he could take control of a [[Transtector]]. {{storylink|The Four-Million-Year-Old Veil of Mystery}} Unfortunately once they'd succeeded, a number of the Headmasters broke away from [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress]]'s leadership under the command of [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. {{storylink|The Mystery of Planet Master}}

[[File:HM3 Brainstorm.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.4|"What do you mean 'shouldn't you have a mouthplate?'?"]]
In the year 2011, when Galvatron launched his latest attack on Cybertron with the added power of his new Decepticon Headmasters, Brainstorm and his fellow Autobot Headmasters travelled to the planet to help their comrades defend their homeworld. {{storylink|Four Warriors Come out of the Sky}} On arrival, they set about fighting the Decepticons. Brainstorm and Chromedome were able to overcome [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]], despite the Decepticon's powers of hypnotism. Following the battle's conclusion, they traveled to [[Athenia]] on board Battleship Maximus to join the Autobot forces there. Though they volunteered to accompany [[Hot Rod (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Hot Rod]] to [[Earth]] to help search for the [[Matrix of Leadership]], he insisted on sidelining them. {{storylink|The Mystery of Planet Master}} After [[Blaster (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Blaster]]'s death, the Headmasters joined Hot Rod anyway and helped him search. When the came under attack from [[Abominus (G1)|Abominus]], they were able to hold the Decepticon off long enough for Hot Rod to dig up the Matrix. They accompanied him back to Cybertron, where Hot Rod once more became Rodimus Prime, but they failed to stabilize [[Vector Sigma]], and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] was forced to do it himself by sacrificing his life. {{storylink|Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime}}

When the Decepticons created the [[Madmachine]], the four Headmasters were ready to storm over to [[Chaar]] and destroy it, but Rodimus intended instead to send the [[Autobot Mini-Cassette|Cassettes]]. When the Cassettes refused the mission, Brainstorm blocked their way, wanting to know what their problem was. Daniel pointed out they were still upset about Blaster's death, however Fortress resurrected Blaster as Twincast. While Twincast went to Earth, the Headmasters were sent to Cybertron and helped [[Throttlebot]]s to destroy the Madmachine. {{storylink|The Great Cassette Operation}} While on patrol in Battleship Maximus, the Headmasters encountered two [[Beastformer]]s, leading them to travel to planet [[Beast (planet)|Beast]] to thwart a Decepticon invasion. {{Storylink|Rebellion on Planet Beast}} After failing to destroy a [[Metamorphose|strange meteor]], they aided the [[Technobot (G1)|Technobot]]s in a fight against Decepticons. Partway though, they were called back to Athenia so they could accompany Daniel on a mission to destroy the meteor, and Brainstorm and his fellows kept [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]]'s men busy while Daniel completed said mission. {{Storylink|Approach of the Demon Meteorite}}

[[File:HM8 Highbrow and Brainstorm sitting around.jpg|thumb|280px|"Brainstorm, it's okay. The cow can't hurt you." "No! Keep that thing away from me!"]]
The Headmasters were sent to [[Praum]] to investigate reports of a Decepticon attack. On arrival, they found the base had been devastated and the occupants apparently destroyed, moving Brainstorm to make the sign of the cross. It turned out to be a trap set by Scorponok, but the five Headmasters remembered their struggles back on Master and swapped Transtectors in order to escape. Brainstorm made great use of [[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]]'s Transtector during the ensuing battle against the Decepticons. {{storylink|The Four-Million-Year-Old Veil of Mystery}} While investigating a mysterious blackmailer, the Headmasters checked out the [[Statue of Liberty]]. They arrived in [[London]] with [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], only to find the Decepticons had leveled the place. They similarly arrived back in [[New York City|New York]] too late, though Brainstorm spotted [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] and [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]]. They later aided the [[Trainbot]]s in catching up with and defeating [[Sixshot]], whom they'd encountered before on Master. {{storylink|Terror! The Six Shadows}}

The Headmasters continued to train, Brainstorm by lifting weights. When Decepticons were reported to be heading for Earth, he opted to remain on Athenia, and later traveled to Cybertron with Fortress when the Decepticons mounted an all-out attack on the planet. {{storylink|Cybertron Is in Grave Danger, Part 1}} When the Decepticon Headmasters split mid-battle, Brainstorm figured they were up to something, and they eventually discovered the Decepticons were heading for Vector Sigma and gave pursuit. Unfortunately they failed to stop the Decepticons destroying Cybertron. {{storylink|Cybertron Is in Grave Danger, Part 2}}

[[File:HM12 Brainstorm vehicle mode.jpg|left|thumb|230px]]
During the launch of the [[Sol 1]] satellite, the Headmasters defended [[Sol System Center|the launch pad]]. Brainstorm took to the air to try and chase off Cyclonus and Scourge. They succeeded in launching the satellite, but when the Decepticons made another play for it, Sixshot kept the Autobot Headmasters busy. Brainstorm was ready to charge over to Chaar to get Sol 1 back, but Fortress had a better idea where it was. The Headmasters found the satellite near [[Zarak (planet)|Zarak]], but were forced to destroy it to keep it out of Decepticon hands. {{storylink|The Shadow Emperor, Scorponok}}

The Headmasters went to Earth to assist when a Peruvian volcano erupted. While fighting [[Predaking (G1)|Predaking]] and the Decepticon Headmasters, Brainstorm used his whirlwind attack to draw hot ash from an ash cloud and blast the Decepticons with it. He also assisted during the evacuation of the village of [[Pan]] by rescuing [[Pipiro]]'s donkey, [[Koro]]. {{storylink|The Dormant Volcano Mysteriously Erupts}} When they attacked a [[buridanka]] plant on Earth, Brainstorm boldly threw himself into one of the plant's mouths. The rest of the fight didn't go much better, and the Headmasters found themselves in danger of termination until Fortress broke out the [[Master Sword]] and cut the thing to shreds. {{storylink|Head On!! Fortress Maximus}}

When reports came in of the Decepticons being up to something on [[Mars (planet)|Mars]], Brainstorm and the other Headmasters traveled there in [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]]. After tangling with Predaking they rescued Daniel and found out that the Decepticons were planning to blow the entire planet up. Interrogating the Decepticons led them to a crater which naturally turned out to be a trap. {{storylink|Explosion on Mars!! Maximus Is in Danger}} Both Brainstorm and Highbrow were injured enough that they had to undergo extensive repairs. They finally returned to the fight to save Mars in time to witness MegaZarak's arrival, and Brainstorm's jet mode was swatted out of the air by the titan. As Mars exploded, the four Headmasters joined Fortress aboard Maximus, and they were able to escape the planet thanks to the explosions recharging Maximus' power. {{storylink|Explosion on Mars!! MegaZarak Appears}}

[[File:HM17 Brainstorm works on transtector.jpg|thumb|240px|"Hey, listen up down there. That thing is called a 'cockpit'. Not a bathroom."]]
Brainstorm offered the opinion that a UFO Daniel saw might be aliens. He and the other Headmasters patrolled space near Chaar and came under attack from MegaZarak, but escaped thanks to another appearance by the mystery UFO. It wasn't until the Autobots gatecrashed Scorponok's coronation ceremony that the UFO was revealed to be the returned Galvatron, and they had to retreat. {{storylink|Return of the Immortal Emperor}} After an SOS was received from [[Sandra (planet)|Sandra]], the Headmasters prepared to take a shipment of energy to that world. The Decepticons set out to stop them, but Brainstorm and Highbrow kept them busy while Chromedome and Hardhead sneaked ahead with the energy. The Autobots arrived on Sandra in time to fight off the incoming Decepticons. {{storylink|SOS from Planet Sandra}}

As part of [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]]'s plan to negotiate with the Decepticon, the four Headmasters accompanied him to [[Shangri-La Island]] on Earth as an escort. When the Galvatron who met with Spike turned out to be an impostor, Brainstorm and the others rescued [[Carly]] and Daniel before attacking the Decepticons. During the escape, Sixshot destroyed the [[space bridge]] network, and the Autobots set out in pursuit in Battleship Maximus. {{storylink|Daniel Faces His Biggest Crisis Ever!!}} When the Decepticons invaded [[Hive (planet)|Hive]], the Autobots attempted to go help, but were stopped by the Hive ships which opened fire on Maximus. Even Chromedome, Hardhead and Brainstorm going out to try to reason with them failed, and the trio returned to the ship. {{storylink|Fight to the Death on Planet Hive!!}}

[[File:HM20 Brainstorm closeup.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|"Black Mesa can eat my bankrupt-"]]
As Maximus neared the [[Twin Star]] system, Brainstorm got the other riled up by claiming battle was about brain over brawn. He volunteered to accompany Daniel, [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] and [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] to the planet of Toruin while the others fought the Decepticons on Spherity. The four of them weren't on the barren planet for long before they stumbled on an underground city—the inhabitants of Spherity were using the planet as a refuge. Brainstorm returned to the battle on Spherity, using a head swap technique with the other Headmasters so he could reach Fortress and deliver the news that Spherity was an empty world. He later apologized to the other Headmasters for his earlier comments about warfare. {{storylink|Battle for Defense of the False Planet}}

An SOS led the Headmasters to the planet [[Daros]] where they fought the Decepticons again and overthrew the corrupt government. {{storylink|Find MegaZarak's Weak Spot!!}} Brainstorm noticed that Battleship Maximus' weapons systems were malfunctioning and had Chromedome and Hardhead go to fix them. When Highbrow was captured by the Decepticons on the planet of [[Paradise]], the three other Headmasters were forced to go rescue him. {{storylink|Head Formation of Friendship}}

[[File:HM26 Brainstorm shocked.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|"There was ''cow meat'' in [[BBQ Double Stackticon|that burger]]? Oh god, I've been contaminated! SOMEBODY GET ME SOAP! I HAVE TO CLEANSE MYSELF!"]]
Brainstorm was keen to take the fight to the Decepticons before their foe could return to Chaar. The Headmasters took part in a battle on the [[Pirate Planet]], though there turned out to be no energy there. {{storylink|Mystery of the Space Pirate Ship}} As the Decepticons returned to Chaar, the Autobot Headmasters returned to Athenia. They traveled to Earth to try to stem a Decepticon attack, but were too late to prevent [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Ultra Magnus]]'s death at the hands of Sixshot. {{storylink|Ultra Magnus Dies!!}}

The Decepticons began striking at points across the Earth, but the Headmasters followed Galvatron to [[Alaska]], where they were able to use information passed on by Punch to defeat Galvatron, trapping him beneath the ice. {{storylink|The Emperor of Destruction Vanishes on an Iceberg}} New information pointed to the Decepticons trying to destroy Earth altogether. As Chromedome had become consumed with guilt over endangering Spike, Brainstorm was put in temporary charge of the Headmasters and sent to the [[Kamchatka Peninsula]] with Hardhead and Highbrow. They didn't fare well against the Decepticons there until Chromedome successfully completed Highbrow's research and arrived with the knowledge of MegaZarak's weak spot. {{storylink|I Risk My Life for Earth}}

[[File:HM29 Brainstorm transform dash!.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.66|Sure, he thinks it's funny to use the ejector seat on Arcana ''now'', but he'll regret it when he tries to transform and realizes he has no head.]]
With Earth largely abandoned by the Decepticons, the Autobot Headmasters set about finding the bombs they'd planted. Brainstorm and Highbrow retrieved a bomb from a mine and returned it to Battleship Maximus. During the disposal of the bombs in space, an accident created the [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmasters]] from a group of refugees from Master and some Autobots and Decepticons. {{storylink|Miraculous Warriors, Targetmasters (Part 1)}} Brainstorm and Highbrow carried [[Pointblank]] back to the ship, though the newcomer dismissed their combat skills. Warned by the refugees, the Headmasters returned to their home world and fought the Decepticons. {{Storylink|Miraculous Warriors, Targetmasters (Part 2)}}

After the Decepticons ransomed Wheelie for information on the Master Sword, Brainstorm and the other Autobots were unsuccessful in keeping said information out of the Decepticons' hands, even after Wheelie was rescued. {{storylink|The Master Sword Is in Danger!!}} The Headmasters worked on finding Scorponok by searching for unique energy wavelengths and even found the cavern where he was constructing the [[Zarak Shield]], but were too late to prevent its completion. {{storylink|The Zarak Shield Turns the Tide}} Brainstorm went along with Chromedome's plan to rally the residents of Master against the Decepticons, but it went horribly wrong when Scorponok popped up in the middle of the city and defeated Fortress Maximus in combat. {{storylink|Operation: Destroy the Decepticons}}

The Headmasters traced Daniel to planet [[Daira]] after he became separated from the ship, and were surprised to find he'd been looked after by Sixshot. {{storylink|My Friend Sixshot!}} When Sixshot challenged Chromedome to a duel and the other Headmasters failed to talk their friend out of it, Brainstorm offered to be Chromedome's second and got a punch in the mouth for his troubles. They were reluctant to let him go alone, but when it turned out the whole thing was a diversion while the other Decepticons headed for Earth, they had no choice but to let him go it alone. {{storylink|Duel on the Asteroid}}

The Autobots hurried back to Earth, where the Decepticons were busy erecting [[Death Tower]]s. When they learned that Spike and Carly's plane had crashed in the [[Andes Mountains|Andes]], the four Headmasters went there with Daniel and Wheelie to rescue them. {{storylink|The Final Showdown on Earth (Part 1)}} On their way to [[Egypt]] to deal with another Death Tower, the four Headmasters had to contend with Mindwipe, Skullcruncher and Weirdwolf, though the trio didn't present much of a threat in the end. After failing to stop the Death Tower from rising, the Autobots' entire army went to the [[Arctic|North Pole]] where they faced the Decepticons in a final battle to save Earth. As Fortress Maximus was caught in the energies preparing to tear the planet apart, Brainstorm and the other three Headmasters attempted a Head Formation to give him more power. It was only when the other Autobots joined in that they succeeded, and the Decepticons' satellite was destroyed. With the Decepticons having fled into space, the Autobots left Earth to pursue them. {{storylink|The Final Showdown on Earth (Part 2)}}

====''The Great Transformer War''====
Before the Headmasters joined the greater Transformer war, Brainstorm, as part of the [[Headmasters of Justice]], hunted down the [[Headmasters of Evil]] on a barren planet. Their ensuing battle was interrupted when [[Sixshot]] arrived to retrieve the Headmasters of Evil, as Galvatron had need of them. As they left, Fortress met up with the four Autobot Headmasters and they all boarded Battleship Maximus to pursue the Decepticons to Cybertron. {{Storylink|The Great Transformer War issue 3|The Great Transformer War #3}}

====''The Headmasters'' manga====
On [[Athenia]], Brainstorm attended the unveiling of the [[Optimus Prime memorial]] statue. He and the other Headmasters of Justice also waylaid a Decepticon bombing attack on the planet. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 1|The Headmasters #1}}

Venturing to [[Beast (planet)|Beast]], Brainstorm and the Headmasters of Justice investigated an SOS from their allies. On aerial recon, Brainstorm and Highbrow found [[Alligatron]] and Predaking attacking innocent Beasts. The Headmasters heroically bought time for the Beasts to flee, but were captured by the Decepticons. Luckily, Hardhead and Chromedome found reinforcements in [[Kane]] and the Autobot Beastformers. They provided a needed distraction for Highbrow and Brainstorm to break free from their captors. Through quick thinking and teamwork, the Headmasters, [[Trainbot]]s, and Beastformers successfully drove the Decepticon forces off of Beest and back to Chaar. {{storylink|Great Decisive Battle of Planet Beast!}}

Brainstorm and the Headmasters next traveled to an Alaskan energy refinery, where the Headmasters of Evil managed to temporarily get the drop on them, separating the Masters from their [[Transtector]]s. Through quick thinking and teamwork, the Autobot Headmasters reunited with their Transtectors and defeated the enemy. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 2|The Headmasters #2}}

The Trainbots joined Brainstorm and the Headmasters on an undersea mission where they found [[Rippersnapper (G1)|Rippersnapper]], [[Skullcruncher (G1)|Skullcruncher]] and the [[Sharkticon (G1)|Sharkticon]]s stealing(?) energy from subaquatic vents. They also found a giant robot squid lying in wait. Through quick thinking and teamwork, the Headmasters and Trainbots dismantled the squid and stopped the Decepticons' scheme. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 3|The Headmasters #3}}

In a battle with [[Sixshot]], Brainstorm and the Headmasters of Justice failed to prevent the Six Clan ninja from stealing food rations. And kidnapping [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel]]. By accident. Way to go, guys. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 4|The Headmasters #4}}

During the Christmas season, Brainstorm and his friends entertained the patients at a children's hospital until the Decepticons arrived. Through quick thinking and teamwork...aw, you get the picture. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 6|The Headmasters #6}}

On Earth, Brainstorm and the crew of the Battleship Maximus helped put out a fire so that [[Ricochet (Headmasters)|Ricochet]] and [[Artfire]] could concentrate on battling the Decepticons. {{storylink|The Headmasters issue 7|The Headmasters #7}}
{{-}}

====''Super-God Masterforce'' cartoon continuity====
=====''Super-God Masterforce'' cartoon=====
Archive footage of a battle in space involving Brainstorm was used to educate the future [[Headmaster Junior]]s about the [[Master Wars]]. {{storylink|Birth! Headmaster Jrs}}

=====''Unite Warriors''=====
Brainstorm and his comrades' involvement in Galvatron's defeat and icy entombment was recounted. {{storylink|Grand Galvatron Chapter}}

=====''Transformers Legends'' comic=====
[[File:LegendsManga BonusEdition9 BrainstormAndRattle.jpg|right|thumb|]]

In one of [[Rattrap (BW)#Transformers Legends comic|Rattrap]]'s dreams wrought about by his size complex, he was sent into another dimension and met Cana, Brainstorm's head stage, who yelled at him to never feel bad about his small stature. He told the [[Maximal]] that anyone can grow bigger and stronger with practice, using his [[transtector]] as an example, then combined with it into Brainstorm and shared the story of how he and his compatriots ended up on [[Master (planet)|Master]]. His point was that despite their size and deadliness of the planet, they didn't just lay down and die, but fought back and became stronger—strong enough that Brainstorm could even defeat [[Scorponok (G1)|MegaZarak]]. When Rattrap woke up, Brainstorm's final words to keep training and never give up inspired him to go jogging. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 9|Bonus Edition Vol. 9}}

[[File:LegendsManga BonusEdition39 BrainstormAndRattle.jpg|left|thumb|]]

Brainstorm was asked by Rattrap why he looked different from the old days, and he confirmed he'd trained hard and acquired a new version of his transtector. This bothered [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]], who found it unfair that out of all the [[Headmasters of Justice]] only ''he'' got an upgrade. Cana later woke up with his Transtector missing, only to find Rattrap had stolen it and was smugly claiming he too "trained hard" to get a bigger body. When Rattrap refused to return it, telling the Headmaster to just get a new one, an angry Cana combined with the body anyway, causing its flip-down [[Tech Spec]] to trap the rat. {{storylink|Transformers 2015 Brainstorm Chapter|Brainstorm Chapter}}

Puzzled over how Rattrap's presence had powered him up enough to take out MegaZarak alone, Brainstorm began researching the phenomenon at the transtector factory in [[G Nebula 89]], which led to the development of [[Getmaster]] technology. While putting the finishing touches on a third new body for himself that was both a Headmaster and Getmaster, he was again visited by Rattrap through his dreams and shared with him the good news. When [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]] attacked the factory, Brainstorm invited Rattrap to power him up like last time, and just like before the rat's [[Chōkon Power|Beast Power]] granted him the strength to defeat their foe. Brainstorm then traveled to the Legends Universe, where he was happily reunited with Rattrap and joined the [[Axalon Trading Company|Autobot Axalon Trading Company]]. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 39|Bonus Edition Vol. 39}}

One day, Brainstorm, Chromedome and Hardhead were attacked by three look-a-likes of themselves who locked them in their transtectors, explaining that they were battling [[Zarak (G1)|Zarak]] and needed robotic bodies to form heads for. The Headmasters agreed to help by controlling the transtectors from their cockpits, and Brainstorm let his counterpart [[Arcana]] form its head during the battle with Zarak. {{storylink|LGEX Headmaster Set Chapter}} He later helped with the construction of a new [[Godbomber]]. {{Storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 42|Bonus Edition Vol. 42}} When [[Scourge (RID)|Black Convoy]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] locked down everyone's transtectors, the Autobots resisted and took down some of his [[Black Convoy Mass Production Type Drone|drones]], which they then modified transtectors so they could fight back. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. EX (Black Convoy 2)|Bonus Edition Vol. EX}} During [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]]'s attack on the city, Brainstorm and the other Headmasters attacked the Decepticon Headmasters who had rebuilt him, but were defeated by Trypticon himself. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 43|Bonus Edition Vol. 43}}

====''Super-God Masterforce'' manga====
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|The Battle Begins! The United Earth-Space Troops}} {{storylink|God Ginrai's Amazing Super-God Combination!}}}}

When [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and [[Metalhawk (Masterforce)|Metalhawk]] were about to be defeated while defending the [[Godbomber|Bomber Project]] from [[Jin (Masterforce)|Jin]], [[Mirai]], and [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]], Brainstorm and the other Autobot Headmasters showed up with the Godcannon in tow. Using the cannon, they were able to defeat their opponents. {{Storylink|Headmasters VS Masterforce}}

===Swamp of the Scorpion===
{{notemultipath}}
Highbrow and Brainstorm once battled Cyclonus, using an [[electronic circuit jammer]] to prevent the Decepticon from taking flight.

Brainstorm was supposed to help Highbrow investigate Decepticon activity on the planet Nebulos. Before their mission was fully underway, however, his power-lines began to over-heat. Brainstorm and <strike>Grot</strike> Gort stopped at a nearby city to get repaired while Highbrow carried on with the mission. {{storylink|Swamp of the Scorpion}}
{{-}}

===Ladybird Books continuity===
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Marinker]] (English)}}
As the Decepticons built an energy interceptor at Nebulos's north pole, the Autobots learned their device risked wiping out the entire planet. After destroying the first energy interceptor, the Autobots were nonplussed to learn the Decepticons built a second, more heavily guarded interceptor in its place. Thinking creatively, Brainstorm worked with the Autobot Targetmasters to turn the Decepticon fortress Scorponok's strength against it. During a sabotage raid, the Targetmasters used thermal lasers to melt the ice underneath Scorponok and the interceptor installation, causing them to fall helplessly into the slush. {{storylink|Decepticons at the Pole}}

[[File:Brainstorm-ASO.jpg|thumb|upright=1.0|Green Needle]]
When the Autobots located a vast reservoir of oil on the planet, Brainstorm spearheaded the effort to create a major pipeline to pump the oil back to Autobot base. {{storylink|Autobots Strike Oil}}

Brainstorm later assisted Optimus Prime in charting a planet-wide search for Decepticon activity on Nebulos. {{storylink|Decepticons Underground}}
{{-}}

===IDW Comics===
====Pre-Requiem continuity====
{{main|Brainstorm (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity}}
[[File:Brainstorm's final word Will Always Rhyme.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|Brainy Smurf Storm.]]
Originally known as '''Genitus''', the cold-constructed 'bot who would become Brainstorm worked at [[Zeta Prime]]'s [[Institute|New Institute]], from where he got his head-themed nickname. He was infatuated with his co-worker [[Quark]], an unrequited love that would go on to have lasting repercussions. Following the outbreak of the Great War, Brainstorm joined the Autobots and became a double agent for the Decepticons, spinning old information in different ways to make it seem as if he was feeding the 'Cons intelligence about new advances. This job was a cover for a complicated plan to save Quark from his death at [[Grindcore (prison)|Grindcore]] prison, procuring parts to construct a paradox trap-exempt time machine with which he planned to save his love, at the cost of his own existence. This time machine took shape within in a [[Time case|briefcase]] that never left Brainstorm's care.

As the war ground on, he worked at [[Kimia Facility|Kimia]], producing all kinds of bizarre weapons that were mostly vetoed by the [[Ethics Committee]] as violations of the [[Non-Conventional Weapons Act]]. After the end of the war and the repopulation of Cybertron, Brainstorm was one of the 200 Autobots who volunteered to serve aboard the ''[[Lost Light]]'' as part of the quest for the [[Knights of Cybertron]]. Over the course of this voyage, Brainstorm had all sorts of adventures, brieftly returning to Cybertron to thwart Shockwave's "Dark Cybertron" scheme. Brainstorm eventually deployed his time machine in a bid to talk Megatron out of starting the war altogether. Believing him to be an undercover mole for the Decepticons, the Autobots pursued him through space and time; although Brainstorm failed in his mission, the adventure created the existence of a [[Functionist Universe|parallel universe]] where Megatron had died before he had been activated. Following a mutiny aboard the ''Lost Light'', he was one of the Autobots identified as a Megatron sympathist by [[Getaway]] and [[Atomizer]], and was subsequently marooned on the [[Necroworld]] with his fellow loyalists.
{{-}}
====Bold New Era continuity====
Prior to [[Great War (G1)|the War]] Brainstorm was an engineer and teacher with a fearsome reputation and a sharp temper. He was always ready to remind his peers of their past failings... even if he didn't bother to remember their names. However when asked to mentor children or students his nature took on a more kindly and indulgent nature. He welcomes the opportunity to introduce young minds to engineering. {{storylink|The World In Your Eyes Part One}}
{{Spoiler|The World In Your Eyes Part One|March 27}}


===''TransTech''===
In [[Primax 806.30 Gamma]], Brainstorm was binary-bonded to the [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] weapons specialist [[Dynamite]] using reverse-engineered technology from [[Sgt. Savage]]. The binary-bonded Autobots joined up with the [[Screaming Eagles]] to battle the forces of [[S.K.A.R.]] The Autobots and Screaming Eagles ultimately emerged victorious from this destructive global conflict and ushered in a new Golden Age for Earth. {{storylink|Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News Reporter|Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News, 2016/05/01}}

===''Titans Return'' marketing material===
[[File:TitansReturn Brainstorm CardArt.jpg|right|thumb|200px|]]

When the [[Titan Master]]s joined the Autobot-Decepticon war, Brainstorm as partnered with [[Arcana|Teslor]], who enhanced Brainstorm's intelligence to make his inventions even more advanced. {{storylink|#TitansReturn|''Titans Return'' Teslor/Brainstorm toy bio}}
{{-}}

==Commercial appearances==
*Brainstorm, [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]], [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]], and [[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]] awaited their [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] partners as [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] sent out a Decepticon alert. Once [[Arcana]] was aboard his vehicle mode, Brainstorm sped off to come to blows against the Decepticon Headmasters. Brainstorm and Arcana transformed and combined to ward off their enemies! {{storylink|Commercial/Generation 1#Headmasters|Headmasters commercial}}
*A stone sculpture of Brainstorm was savaged by [[Skullcruncher (G1)|Skullcruncher]] as part of his training. {{storylink|Commercial/Generation 1#Decepticon Headmasters|Decepticon Headmasters commercial}}
*After Brainstorm and Highbrow were dealt one too many defeats at the hands of the Decepticons, their latest in a battle against [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]] and [[Weirdwolf (G1)|Weirdwolf]], the Autobots conceived of a new breed of warriors: Autobot [[Pretender]]s! {{storylink|Commercial/Generation 1#Pretenders|Pretenders commercial}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: The Headmasters''===
Brainstorm was kidnapped by the Decepticons and held captive on the Jail planet by [[Abominus (G1)|Abominus]]. He was rescued by [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and his other comrades, and in turn helped rescue those who were still imprisoned. Once they had reunited, Brainstorm and the others met with [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] for the last battle against [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. {{storylink|Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)|Transformers: The Headmasters}}

===''The Transformers'' (PS2)===
{{voiceactor|[[Peter von Gomm]]}}

====Autobot story====
{{note|Brainstorm was available as a playable character in the Autobot campaign during the second playthrough.}}

====Decepticon story====
Brainstorm, believing he was the match of the Decepticon leader, challenged [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s march on [[Zel Samine]] as his forces made their way through an array of wind turbines. They handed his aft to him, leaving Brainstorm shocked and confused; how could his frontal attack against superior forces have failed?

He retreated to formulate a new plan.

Later, at ELTA, Chromedome and Brainstorm joined forces to battle the Decepticons again, to no avail. {{storylink|The Transformers (PS2)|The Transformers}}

===''Transformers Legends''===
The Autobot Headmasters led by Brainstorm hunted for [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s ghost by tracking the electro-magnetic spikes which signaled his manifestations. They were able to prevent him passing over into the physical world, and scattered the Decepticons who had aided him. {{storylink|Ghost in the Machine (Legends)|Ghost in the Machine}} When the Decepticons aimed to get hold of the [[Key to the Plasma Energy Chamber]], Brainstorm and his fellow Headmasters made off with it but soon crashed on Earth. They were aided by the [[Earth Defense Command|EDC]], who patched them up and helped them fight off [[Apeface]] and [[Skullcruncher (G1)|Skullcruncher]]. {{storylink|Last Stand of the Earth Defense Command}}

===''Transformers: Battle Tactics''===
[[File:BattleTacticsBrainstorm.jpg|thumb|right|400px|Seriously, Brainstorm once destroyed an entire village because he thought he saw a cow. And it turned out to be a washing machine.]]
Brainstorm participated in battles against a variety of opponents, both Autobots and Decepticons. Sometimes there were many of him! He was a Super Rare character who could be recruited for 300 units of Cybermetal, 95 units of Transmetal, 60 scout cores, and 5 cores of this character. {{storylink|Transformers: Battle Tactics}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
[[File:G1-toy Brainstorm.jpg|right|300px|thumb|No no...]]
*'''Brainstorm''' (Headmaster, [[1987]])
**''Japanese ID number'': '''C-104'''
**''Accessories'': "Arcana" Headmaster pilot, left & right "High-Energy [[Photon pulse cannon|Photon Pulse Cannons]]"

:Brainstorm transforms into a turquoise Cybertronic fighter craft. Both of Brainstorm's twin pistols attach to the front of his alt-mode's nosecone to extend it and augment it with two canard wings. As with all larger Headmaster toys, Brainstorm features both a cockpit suitable for his partner, [[Arcana#Toys|Arcana]], to sit in and an abbreviated [[Tech Spec]]s bar graph inside his chest hidden under a hinged panel. When a compatible Headmaster head is plugged into the socket on Brainstorm's [[robot mode]], the bars will show three of that head unit's Tech Specs.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1987/Autobot/Brainstorm/brainstorm.htm More information on Brainstorm at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Generations===
====Thrilling 30====
[[File:Generations 30 voyager Brainstorm.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Briefcase sadly not included.]]
*'''Brainstorm''' (Voyager, [[2014]])
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #009'''
**''Accessories'': Head/pilot robot, left & right blasters

:Part of the eighth wave of 2012-onwards ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' Voyager Class toys, ''[[Thrilling 30]]'' Brainstorm transforms into a turquoise Cybertronian aircraft based off of [[Nick Roche]]'s design for ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]''. He is notable for being the first general retail release toy of an existing headmaster to retain the gimmick. He also holds the distinction of being the first Headmaster-style figure with an articulated neck. He comes with two pistols which can attach via [[5mm post]] to his hands and the nosecone of the jet. [[Arcana#Generations|His head]] transforms into an unnamed robot that is most certainly Arcana, and can be inserted inside the cockpit to be used as a pilot. Putting the pilot robot into the neck socket will reveal Tech Specs like the G1 toy. The Tech Specs are based off the original figure, not the Tech Specs on the box.

:Exercise caution while using the Headmaster gimmick, as the main robot's neck socket is painted, making the pilot robot rather difficult to remove. Too much force could separate the pilot robot's own head from his body. However, there have been reports of a [[Variant#Running changes|running change]] in the toy that fixes the Headmaster gimmick; this is signified by a rubber band holding the head in place.

:Please take note that Arcana ''cannot'' connect to Brainstorm's Deluxe Class counterpart due to having different connectors, and any ''Titans Return'' Titan Master (including Teslor) is incompatible with Brainstorm's Voyager Class body.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Autobot/GenBrainstorm/brainstorm.htm More information on Generations Brainstorm on TFU.info]''
::*''[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/fixed-headmaster-gimmick-variant-of-generations-brainstorm-released/32023/ Fixed Headmaster gimmick running change]''

====Titans Return====
{{anchor|TitanForce}}
[[File:TitansReturntoy-BrainstormTitanForce.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I'm Charon in London.]]
*'''Titan Force''' (gift set, 2016)
**''Accessories:'' Gun, vehicle nosecone/Titan Master sled, "Autobot Teslor" Titan Master, sticker sheet of multiple Autobot and Decepticon faction symbols

:This version of Brainstorm is a [[retool]] of ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' [[Blurr (G1)/toys#TitansReturn|Blurr]], lacking the Titan Master pegs originally found on Blurr, and features a new face, shoulders, and vehicle mode parts, mostly inspired by his [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]'' design. As with all Deluxe-or-larger ''Titans Return'' toys, his [[Titan Master]] head, [[Arcana#TitanForce|Autobot Teslor]], can be freely swapped between figures, and transforms into a robot which can pilot or peg onto alternate modes.

:[[File:Brainstorm vs Charon.jpg|thumb|left|upright=0.8|A rarity: A trademark conflict in a specific non-US market.]]
:Brainstorm includes a foil sticker sheet, featuring a choice of Autobot or Decepticon symbols for the sculpted spot under his windscreen in robot mode and for his wings (either to cover the tampographed symbols already there or to go on the reverse side for robot mode).

:This initial release of Brainstorm was only available as part of the "Titan Force" [[giftset]], which also includes a translucent plastic redeco of [[Sentinel Prime (G1)#TitanForce|''Titans Return'' Sentinel Prime]] and [[Windblade (G1)#TitanForce|Windblade]], a [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]]-themed redeco of her ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Windblade (RID)#Warrior|counterpart's Warrior Class sculpt]]. In the United States, the "Titan Force" set was [[exclusive]] to [[Hasbro Toy Shop]], initially available at their booth at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2016, and later also via the Hasbro Toy Shop website. For the United Kingdom, [[A1 Toys]] acquired exclusive distribution rights, with the set initially available at their booth at London Film & Comic-Con 2016, and later also via their website and at other UK conventions. Due to trademark issues, A1 Toys' release had to rename Brainstorm into "'''Charon'''" via stickers applied to the outside of the box. Furthermore, the set was also sold at Cybertron Con Shanghai 2016, at the Hasbro booth at Animation-Comic-Game Hong Kong 2016 and at the HasbroStore booth at Fan Expo 2016 in Canada, in each case retaining Brainstorm's original name.

:This retooled sculpt would've been redecoed as [[Devcon (G1)|Devcon]] with Titan Master [[Slizardo]] redecoed from [[Haywire#Generations|Hyperfire]] as a BotCon 2017 exclusive that never came to be.

{{-}}
{{anchor|TitansReturnIndividual}}
[[File:TF-Generations-Titans-Return-Brainstorm-(Individual-Release).jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|It's okay, [http://www.shortpacked.com/2005/comic/book-1-brings-back-the-80s/01-just-a-toy-store/batman-can-breathe-in-space/ Teslor can breathe in space.]]]
*'''Autobot Teslor & Brainstorm''' (Deluxe, 2016)
**''Accessories:'' Gun, vehicle nosecone/Titan Master sled, "Autobot Teslor" Titan Master

:A differently-decoed Brainstorm was also sold individually. Compared to the San Diego Comic-Con version, this one has a deco closer to the original G1 toy, including a yellow canopy. Although it has fewer paint apps than the Titan Force giftset version, it features more tampographed details instead. As with most ''Titans Return'' figures, Brainstorm also comes with a collectors' card based on his packaging art.

:Initial samples on display at conventions had his helmet left unpainted (showing the same darker gray as used on his wings and feet) and his Autobot symbol tampograph applied to the top of his canopy like on his Titan Force release. His stock photography, however, matches the version of the figure available at retail.

:In the United States, Brainstorm was available as the first ever exclusive to [[Walgreens]] drug stores. However, in late August 2016, before Brainstorm became widely available at Walgreens, a single case was discovered at a ''Walmart'' store in the United States, which ended up being an isolated incident.<ref name="walmart">http://news.tfw2005.com/2016/08/31/titans-return-walgreens-exclusive-brainstorm-found-wal-mart-324155</ref> In Hasbro's Asian markets, meanwhile, Brainstorm was available at general retail in a case all by himself, and ended up as a ''massive'' shelfwarmer at stores such as Toys"R"Us and AEON.

:The packaging features the assortment number for the general retail ''Titans Return'' Deluxe Class, implying that the decision to make him an exclusive was a late one.
{{-}}

===''Legends''===
[[File:TF-Legends-LG09-Brainstorm.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Some say this deco is overdoing it.]]
*'''Brainstorm''' (Voyager, 2015-[[January 24|01-24]])
**''ID number'': '''LG09'''
**''Accessories'': "Cana" Headmaster pilot, left & right weapons

:''[[Transformers Legends (franchise)|Legends]]'' Brainstorm is a redeco of ''Generations'' Brainstorm with some minor changes in plastic, such as an orange canopy. He more noticeably features additional paint detail, including red and white highlights on his smaller wings, some white added to the red details on his chest, and a silver midriff. Brainstorm's bio is written from a ''The Headmasters'' perspective and as such names the Headmaster its Japanese name, Cana. He comes with [[Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 9|volume 9]] of the ''[[Transformers Legends (comic)|Transformers Legends Comic: Bonus Edition]]'' comic.

::*''[http://higekumatoytoy.blog60.fc2.com/blog-entry-2421.html Legends Voyager Brainstorm at Alfes's Blog Part 1]''
::*''[http://higekumatoytoy.blog60.fc2.com/blog-entry-2422.html Legends Voyager Brainstorm at Alfes's Blog Part 2]''

{{-}}{{anchor|LG39}}
[[File:LegendsTRBrainstorm.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Yellow belly. (Well, close enough.)]]
*'''Brainstorm''' (Deluxe, [[2016]]-[[December 28|12-28]])
**''ID number'': '''LG39'''
**''Accessories'': Gun, vehicle nosecone/Headmaster sled, gun, "[[Synapse (Legends)|Synapse]]" partner drone, "Cana" Headmaster component

:The second ''Legends'' Brainstorm is a slight retool and redeco of the tooling used for the previously mentioned ''Titans Return'' Brainstorm releases. This figure's deco is based directly off of Brainstorm's character model in ''The Headmasters'' cartoon, and the Headmaster partner himself is retooled to match—notably removing his faceplate in favor of a mouth. Also included is [[Synapse (Legends)|Synapse]], a redeco of Titan Master [[Brawn (G1)/toys#TitansReturn|Brawn]]'s vehicle accessory, which is built to accommodate all Titan Masters/Headmasters.

::*''[http://higekumatoytoy.blog60.fc2.com/blog-entry-2736.html Legends Deluxe Brainstorm at Alfes's Blog]''
{{TRHyperfireMold}}
{{-}}

==Notes==
[[File:G1BrainstormOriginalHead.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|Please find us clearer footage.]]
[[File:Brainstormpretenderscommercial.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|His blue period.]]
*In early planning stages, the Large Headmasters were to have differently styled heads that would be replaced by their more familiar heads during the Headmaster process. A [[commercial]] for [[Ring of Hate!|Headmasters #1]] featuring animation of Brainstorm and others is the only time these designs were used.
*The Headmasters appeared in a second commercial with much more sophisticated animation. In this entry, we see the Autobot Headmasters lined up in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]]s as their Nebulan partners run up into their cockpits and then launch into an attack. [http://youtube.com/watch?v=dDSemtc0JaU]
*Additional footage of the Headmasters featured in the animated introduction to the first commercial for the [[Pretender]]s. As Brainstorm battles [[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]], the narration claims that after a series of defeats, the Autobots are required to up the ante by developing Pretender technology.
*In all three of these commercials, Brainstorm is colored in his [[Marvel Comics]] colors rather than his color scheme seen in "[[The Rebirth]]", with his dark green and orange being replaced with cyan and yellow.
*Brainstorm is a Christian! In the [[Transformers: The Headmasters (cartoon)|''Headmasters'' cartoon]] episode "[[The Four-Million-Year-Old Veil of Mystery]]", when the Headmasters encounter a massacre on the planet [[Praum]], [[:File:HM7 Brainstorm sign of cross.jpg|he crosses himself]].

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Cana''' (カーナ ''Kāna''), '''Brainstorm''' (ブレインストーム ''Bureinsutōmu'')
*''French:'' '''Cerveau''' (Canada, "Brain")
*''Hungarian:'' '''Agytröszt''' ("Genius", literally "Brain-Trust")
*''Italian:'' '''Goblin'''
*''Mandarin:'' '''Burn''' (Taiwan, 伯恩 ''Bó Ēn''), '''Xiǎo Zhūgé''' (China, 小诸葛, "Little {{w|Zhuge Liang|Zhuge}}")
*''Russian:'' '''Fantazyor''' (Фантазёр, "Dreamer")

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Engineers]]
[[Category:Exclusives]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:Headmasters]]
[[Category:The Headmasters Autobots]]
[[Category:IDW Generation 1 (2019) Transformers]]
[[Category:Legends Autobots]]
[[Category:Regeneration One Autobots]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Super-God Masterforce Autobots]]
[[Category:Titans Return]]
[[Category:Wings Universe Autobots]]