https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=DevastatorMediaWiki - User contributions [en]2026-05-21T18:14:21ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.45.3https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=707014Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2012-04-12T05:09:06Z<p>Devastator: Undo revision 704307 by S-NFS (She's not evil. Specifically says so in her lithograph.)</p>
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<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
{{disambig2|the evil character from a BotCon lithograph|the good character from the Animated television show|Sari Sumdac}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]] [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
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[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
<br />
You know that nice, sweet girl, [[Sari Sumdac]]? Yeah, this isn't that Sari. This '''Sari Sumdac''' collects eyes. Years of torture can do that to a girl. She hails from an alternate continuity from the normal Animated universe, where everything is flipped, turned upside down. Autobots are evil. Decepticons are good. [[Porter C. Powell]] is a nice guy. [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|You know the deal.]]<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Isaac Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobot]]s. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her "creator" with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
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==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|Shattered Glass Sari, I choose you, [[Motormaster (Animated)|OHHHH YEEAH!]] ]]<br />
* ''Shattered Glass'' Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog,<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref> and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in ''[[Transformers Generations 2011]]'' Vol. 1. Seems like while Takara were cool about her having a bare midriff, it didn't fly with Hasbro.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari and [[Bumblebee (SG Animated)|other]] [[Optimus Prime (SG Animated)|members]] of her universe present a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
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==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
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{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Soundwave_(WFC)&diff=702032Soundwave (WFC)2012-03-30T03:23:05Z<p>Devastator: Fixed a typo</p>
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<div>{{faction|decepticon|hofsilver}}<br />
{{disambig3|Soundwave}}<br />
:''Soundwave is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Aligned continuity family]].''<br />
[[Image:Soundwave Prime.jpg|thumb|300px||Despite appearances, that is not a [[mouthplate]].]]<br />
'''Soundwave''' is the spy master of the Decepticons. One of [[Megatron (Prime)|Megatron]]'s earliest followers, and, many believe, instrumental to his rise, he uses his tentacles and a veritable army of [[Mini-Con|Minicon]] [[Deployer (Prime)|Deployer]]s to learn everything there is to know about his allies and his enemies. He was never very chatty, but these days, on Earth, he's become near silent, communicating by playing back recordings of other people's conversations. He just sneaks about, patiently looking for Autobot transmissions and creeping [[Starscream (Prime)|you]] out. Since the incapacitation of Megatron, Soundwave acts as a restraint on [[Starscream (Prime)|Starscream]], reining in his rather volatile emotions, and ensuring that Starscream's less than subtle ambitions are held in check. <br />
<br />
Soundwave has the ability to receive transmissions from anywhere on the planet, bar the shielded Autobot Base. This allows him to spy on every being on the planet in the hopes of picking up Autobot-related communications.<br />
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{{quote|Watch out for the quiet ones.|[[Knock Out (Prime)|Knock Out]]|"[[One Shall Rise, Part 3]]"}}<br />
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==Fiction==<br />
===Aligned novels===<br />
Soundwave was a gladiator from [[Kaon]] who almost bested [[Megatron (Prime)|Megatron]] in combat, an act that created mutual respect between the two. Soundwave saw in Megatron a desire to return to the swashbuckling spirit of the [[Golden Age]] of Cybertron, when Cybertronians emerged from the [[Well of All Sparks]] having to escape from the [[Underworld]]'s monsters rather than being put into a [[caste system|caste]]. He was appointed Megatron's lieutenant with [[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]]. Though Megatron despised Minicons, Soundwave insisted on having them around to spy on their gladiators, including the time when Megatron's librarian friend [[Optimus Prime (Prime)|Orion Pax]] came to visit. He was suspicious of Orion and even asked permission from Megatron to tail him as he returned to [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]].<br />
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After [[Decepticon]]s bombed Cybertron in Megatron's name, Soundwave sent [[Frenzy (WFC)|Frenzy]] and [[Rumble (WFC)|Rumble]] to search for the [[Matrix of Leadership]] in [[Crystal City]] (a place which design he always found self indulgent). Soundwave was not sure whether he should have bothered, as he was not superstitious and wondered what use a piece of a [[Star Saber (Prima)|broken sword]] could be. Instead he got chilling indications Crystal City's scientists were planning to revive [[Omega Supreme (WFC)|Omega Supreme]]. <br />
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[[Image:WFCcomicDecepticons.jpg|thumb|250px|"Yeah, this look is cool now, but I don't think I'll have it ''forever'': I mean, who'd like to see things looking the same for over twenty five years, right guys? ...guys?"]]<br />
<br />
Soundwave attended Orion and Megatron's hearing before the [[Autobot High Council|High Council]]. During this meeting, Soundwave helped to sow discord and tension by loudly shouting his complaints over security breaches that, in truth, he himself had caused. The Council noted that they were aware someone had tried to find the Matrix, and they appointed Orion [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] and requested he find it. This tore Orion and Megatron's movement in two.<br />
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During the final days of the war, Soundwave and his minions' research changed the fate of Cybertron. It was they who found the areas of the [[DataNet]] that [[Alpha Trion (Prime)|Alpha Trion]] had overlooked and not deleted, revealing the existence of [[Dark Energon]] on [[Trypticon (WFC)|Trypticon]] Station. It was he who remembered the [[Geosynchronous Energon Bridge]] below Crystal City that allowed for the mass transportation of Dark Energon between Cybertron and Trypticon. And it was the evidence he got from Rumble and Frenzy when they infiltrated Crystal City that revealed the existence of the [[Plasma energy|Plasma Energy Chamber]] and its two [[Code Key]]s, which enabled Megatron to poison the [[Core]] of Cybertron.<br />
<br />
When Optimus removed the Chamber from the Core, beginning the planet's slow healing process, Soundwave boarded the ''Nemesis'' with Megatron, [[Starscream (Prime)|Starscream]] and [[Lugnut (WFC)|Lugnut]] to pursue the Autobot ''[[Ark (WFC)|Ark]]'' into the unknown reaches of space. {{storylink|Transformers: Exodus|Exodus}}<br />
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Soundwave regained consciousness onboard the ''Nemesis'' after emerging from the energy field created by the Space Bridge explosion over Cybertron. While Megatron demanded a status report, Soundwave was already deep at work in a console attempting to determine the answer. Along with Starscream and Megatron, Soundwave examined the tracking reports and confirmed Starscream's assumption that the ''Ark'' was likely not too far away. {{storylink|Transformers: Exiles|Exiles}}<br />
<br />
===''Prime'' cartoon===<br />
When a gladiator calling himself Megatronus vowed to challenge Cybertron's leadership, Soundwave was his first follower and chief amongst them. Soundwave remained at Megatronus' side, now Megatron, as the conflict escalated into a war. {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 3}}<br />
<br />
During the Decepticon attack on [[Cliffjumper (Prime)|Cliffjumper]], Soundwave intercepted [[Arcee (Prime)|Arcee]]'s comms talk. He later played it back to Starscream, prompting the Decepticon leader to send the drones after her. He later detected transmissions coming from deep space, that prompted the Decepticons to fire up the [[space bridge]], allowing Megatron to return. {{storylink|Darkness Rising, Part 1}} <br />
<br />
[[Image:DarknessRising5-Soundwaveturn.jpg|right|thumb|200px|He's not shuttershy. He's also not Fluttershy.]]<br />
Shortly after Megatron left the ship on a mission, Starscream wondered aloud if Megatron had a touch of space madness, and Soundwave reminded him that their absent leader was still in charge. Starscream told him to step up global surveillance. Soundwave subsequently intercepted a transmission from [[William Fowler|Agent Fowler]] and, on Starscream's order, dispatched [[Laserbeak (Prime)|Laserbeak]] to capture the agent to learn the location of the [[Autobot Outpost Omega One|Autobot base]]. {{storylink|Darkness Rising, Part 3}} When the Autobots attacked the ''Nemesis'' to retrieve Fowler, slaughtering dozens of their soldiers, Soundwave hid. He simply watched when Megatron returned and took his fury out on Starscream on the bridge for not waiting on his command. {{storylink|Darkness Rising, Part 4}}<br />
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Starscream sent Soundwave to a radio telescope array in [[Texas]] as they needed to use the array to target the space bridge at [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Soundwave hacked into the computer network at the site, but after he had lined up the dishes, someone realigned them. In response to Starscream's demands as to what was happening, he tapped into the base's security system and discovered that the Autobots' three human friends were in a nearby room, similarly accessing the computer. He extended a tentacle into the room they were in and attacked them. When [[Miko Nakadai|Miko]] tried to chop the tentacle with an ax, Soundwave took it from her and used it to sever the computer system's hardline, locking the dishes on Cybertron. The three kids entered the room in time to see him leaving, and Miko and Soundwave snapped photos of each other. <br />
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[[Image:MastersStudents-Soundwavesradar.jpg|thumb|left|200px|See how much more convincing I am as a [[:Image:Cybertronsoundwave.jpg|communications tower]] with this look?]]<br />
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Because of Soundwave's success, the Autobots resorted to sabotaging the space bridge, blowing it up and taking Megatron with it. {{storylink|Darkness Rising, Part 5}} At Starscream's order, Soundwave activated the comm system so Starscream could give a speech to the troops, declaring himself leader. Failing to impress the Vehicons, Starscream pressed Soundwave's sensors into locating [[Skyquake (Prime)|Skyquake]], a Decepticon secreted in a pod in the desert. Starscream and Soundwave reactivated Skyquake, only to find he wasn't receptive to Starscream's leadership. Soundwave detected a Decepticon signal from the site where the space bridge exploded, and when Starscream went to investigate, Soundwave sent Laserbeak to keep Starscream honest while he himself filmed the battle between Skyquake and two Autobots. Though the fight ended detrimental to the Decepticon cause, Soundwave was able to ensure that Starscream returned Megatron's barely-functioning body to the ''Nemesis''. {{storylink|Masters & Students}}<br />
<br />
Soundwave intercepted a transmission from [[Wheeljack (Prime)|Wheeljack]] who was heading for Earth. At Starscream's order, he downloaded the necessary information to [[Makeshift (Prime)|Makeshift]], who took on Wheeljack's form and infiltrated the Autobot base. As Starscream and Soundwave paid a visit to the captive Wheeljack, Soundwave prevented his leader from terminating their prisoner, as he might be of use later. The two 'Cons retired to the ship's top deck to wait for Makeshift to activate the [[GroundBridge]], however Wheeljack broke free and started trashing the Vehicons. When Wheeljack escaped through the ground bridge and sent back Makeshift with his grenade activated, Soundwave and Starscream made sure to get well clear before he exploded. {{storylink|Con Job}} During another Autobot operation, Soundwave listened in on their comms chatter, prompting Starscream to send some Vehicons to attack. {{storylink|Convoy (episode)|Convoy}}<br />
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[[Image:Deusex-Soundwavecrouching.jpg|thumb|250px|And that's why there's no [[Ratbat (WFC)|Ratbat]].]]<br />
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When [[Breakdown (Prime)|Breakdown]] mentioned seeing an [[Energon Harvester]] in a fresco in [[Greece]], Soundwave was able to track the device's location to a museum. Breakdown and [[Knock Out (Prime)|Knock Out]] kept the Autobots busy in front of the museum while Soundwave sneaked in the back. He ran into Raf and Jack, who were already in the process of stealing the Harvester, and grabbed it from them before making a getaway in his vehicle mode. {{storylink|Deus ex Machina}}<br />
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[[Image:SickMind-Soundwaveobjects.jpg|thumb|250px|left|"Let me see some tenderness connected with a death, or that dark chamber, Spirit, which we left just now, will be forever present to me."]]<br />
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Starscream and Knock Out made a concerted attempt to convince Soundwave that Megatron was beyond saving, and that the only option left to them was euthanasia. Soundwave remained skeptical, and pointed out the patch cable that Arcee and Bumblebee was using to access Megatron's brain. Megatron's life support was damaged during the ensuing confusion, and though it seemed Starscream and Knock Out were content to leave Megatron flat-lining, Soundwave pressured them into reconnecting the cable sustaining their master. {{storylink|Sick Mind}}<br />
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After Megatron's resurrection, Soundwave kept him informed regarding Starscream's activities, including his attempt to resurrect Skyquake with the Dark Energon shard ripped from Megatron's chest, and the loss of his arm. {{storylink|Rock Bottom}} Soundwave watched as Breakdown was captured by [[MECH]], and reported back to Starscream. He was on the bridge of the ''Nemesis'' when Starscream passed the news on to Megatron, who was less than impressed that Breakdown had been taken by a bunch of humans. {{storylink|Operation: Breakdown}} He detected the magnetic anomaly caused by the [[polarity gauntlet]], causing Megatron to send Breakdown to go look for it. {{storylink|Metal Attraction}}<br />
<br />
Megatron and Starscream headed to a stripped Energon Mine to discover mining drills still there. Starscream attempted to blame this on Soundwave. Megatron told Starscream that Soundwave had been filling him in on the second-in-command's activities. {{storylink|Rock Bottom}} Soundwave listened to Starscream's confessions after Megatron nearly terminated the second-in-command. {{storylink|Partners}}<br />
<br />
When the new Decepticon space bridge was nearing completion, Soundwave supplied a diagram of the last component they needed. After they obtained said component, Megatron left the ship on a mission of his own. [[Optimus Prime (Prime)|Optimus Prime]] began searching the ship for the Decepticon leader and Megatron instructed Soundwave to send Prime to him. {{storylink|One Shall Fall}}<br />
<br />
[[Image:SoundwavePlayingSparkbeat..jpg|thumb|200px|He's playing Dubstep.]]<br />
<br />
Soundwave translated tremors coming from the Earth's core into sound, revealing it to be a heartbeat. Megatron did not appreciate this, as it was making his head hurt. {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 1}}<br />
<br />
After Megatron left the ship to talk to [[Unicron]], Soundwave monitored the comms channels for his master's return. When [[Airachnid]] suggested considering a future without Megatron, Soundwave ominously looked at her. {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 2}}<br />
<br />
[[Image:Soundwavelayingdownthelaw.jpg|thumb|200px|left|YOU! SHALL NOT! PASS!]]<br />
Soundwave continued to try to find some sign of Megatron. When Airachnid announced Megatron wasn't coming back and ordered the ship to [[Regulon Four]], Soundwave decided it was time to lay down the law. He defied Airachnid, who angrily attacked him, but the Decepticon spy master quickly proceeded to <strike>defeat</strike> <strike>demolish</strike> humiliate Airachnid. Upon Unicron's defeat, Soundwave detected Megatron's signal and activated the GroundBridge, bowing in respect with the other Decepticons as Megatron entered the bridge of the ship. He had to hold Breakdown back when they saw that Megatron was accompanied by Optimus Prime. {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 3}}<br />
<br />
With Optimus amnesiac and believing himself to be archivist Orion Pax, Soundwave made sure the ship's [[data core]] was clear of any incriminating evidence so Orion could be put to work decrypting information they'd stolen from the Iacon archives. When Arcee managed to get on board the ship to look for the lost Autobot leader, Soundwave made deft use of the GroundBridge to get her back off before Orion could see her. {{storylink|Orion Pax, Part 1}} When Orion eventually learned the truth, Soundwave relayed the news to Megatron. {{storylink|Orion Pax, Part 2}} He also notified Megatron when activity was detected on Cybertron, indicating that the Autobots had gone there in an attempt to help Optimus. {{storylink|Orion Pax, Part 3}}<br />
<br />
When Megatron was angry after having had the [[spark extractor|latest find]] snatched from his hands, Soundwave reminded him there were still two more sets of coordinates to investigate. {{storylink|Operation Bumblebee, Part 1}} Soundwave was present when Megatron unsuccessfully tested the [[Forge of Solus Prime]]. {{storylink|Operation Bumblebee, Part 2}}<br />
<br />
{{spoiler|Loose Cannons|March 31, 2012}}<br />
He played back footage of Skyquake's demise for [[Dreadwing (Prime)|Dreadwing]]. {{storylink|Loose Cannons}}<br />
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{{--}}<br />
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===Titan Magazines ''Prime'' comics===<br />
[[Image:Titan4.2 Soundwave listen.jpg|thumb|right|200px| You look different, Soundwave. Did you do something different with your entire face?]]<br />
During the war, Soundwave took part in a mission led by Megatron to invade [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]] and destroy the [[Iacon Energon Refinery]]. The team had barely made it in before Soundwave detected that they'd been spotted and the five Decepticons had to take cover. Following a failed gambit which expended the other three team members, Megatron gave Soundwave a bomb. While his leader caused a distraction, Soundwave ran to plant the bomb, only to be struck by blasts from [[Optimus Prime (Prime)|one of the defenders]]. Megatron picked up his wounded second-in-command and helped him to safety, along with the other three Decepticons. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 4.2|War Story}}<br />
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Megatron and Soundwave somehow slipped some code into ''[[Invasionauts II]]'' to hypnotise Raf into opening the GroundBridge so they could send Vehicons through. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 4.4|Tinker, Tailor, Gamer, Spy!}}<br />
<br />
{{--}}<br />
<br />
==Games==<br />
===''Transformers: War for Cybertron'' (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)===<br />
:''Voice actor:'' [[Isaac C. Singleton, Jr.]] (English), [[Claudio Moneta]] (Italian)<br />
[[Image:Soundwave WfC GameInformer Concept Art.jpg|300px|Fans loved this but apparently Soundwave wasn't a G1 fan. |thumb|right]]<br />
Soundwave took control of the orbital station [[Starscream (Prime)|Starscream]] was posted at, helping [[Megatron (Prime)|Megatron]] to reach the [[Dark Energon]] by establishing a forward base within the station. He then directed Megatron to a Data Matrix Center in order to find a route to the Dark Energon that had not been blocked by Starscream. <br />
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Later, Soundwave notified Megatron that access to the core was impossible, as it was guarded by the Omega Gate. He and [[Breakdown (Prime)|Breakdown]] accompanied Megatron as they led the assault on [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]], through which they would find and take the [[Omega Key]], opening the Omega Gate and allowing the core to be infused with Dark Energon. On their way to the [[Stellar Galleries]], Soundwave reported [[sniper (WFC)|sniper]]s, and after taking them down, Megatron infused the entrance with Dark Energon and took his team into the security station. Soundwave noticed that the batteries fed the security grid, and the trio infused each of them with Dark Energon, deactivating the security measures. Soundwave then detected the Omega Key behind their next door, and after opening it, the Decepticons arrived at the Stellar Galleries. They opened the container, finding not the key, but a message from [[Sentinel Zeta Prime|Zeta Prime]], who announced that he had taken the Omega Key, anticipating Megatron's plan. Zeta sent Autobot attack forces against them, but they were swiftly taken down. Megatron ordered Soundwave to trace Zeta Prime's broadcast, and Soundwave found it came from 12.7 cycles ahead. He then noted a weak wall, and the Decepticons broke it down and entered the cities' subsystems, providing a direct route to Zeta, and the Omega Key.<br />
<br />
The group descended down a shaft and went through a tunnel, avoiding trains on the way, and after breaking down a door in a ventilation area, they were ambushed by Autobot cloakers. Soundwave dispatched them and infused Dark Energon into the batteries. Megatron congratulated him, and then ordered him to unlock the exit. Soundwave obliged, and the trio found themselves in another tunnel. Breakdown challenged Soundwave to a race, to which the Decepticon responded, in his trademark monotone, "Negative." Tough crowd. Rushing through the tunnel, this time full of moving trains, the group came to a station where they infiltrated Iacon's lower levels. Soundwave detected the Omega Key at last, and suggested proceeding through the logistics station. Roughing it through the Autobot attackers, Soundwave finally determined that the key was beyond the train tunnels.<br />
<br />
Soundwave and his teammates arrived at Iacon's main streets, where they met up with [[Brawl (WFC)|Brawl]] outside of Zeta Prime's vaults, which were impervious to the small amount of Dark Energon Megatron was capable of channeling. After Megatron's squad helped Brawl clear the area, Brawl called in the Dark Energon bombers, but they were spectacularly shot down by the planetary guns. Brawl suggested disabling them, and Soundwave assisted in carrying out the plan. Autobots advanced all around, but Soundwave and the others managed to hold them off until the next wave of bombers arrived, clearing the street and destroying the Vault doors. Soundwave joined the others on their way to the entrance, but the squad was intercepted by a [[Destroyer (WFC)|Destroyer]]. Soundwave and Breakdown split from Megatron to flank him, and eventually they rendered him non-functional. Inside the vault, they avoided Zeta's traps and finally reached the Omega Key—but it too was a trap. Zeta then attacked them, using a giant hologram and controlling the chamber to his advantage, dropping the ceiling and sending holographic brutes to attack for him while safe within an impenetrable energy shield. (Even during the battle, Soundwave was impressed by the creation of endless energon clones, to which Breakdown responded, roughly, "NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!") Soundwave's dorkiness proved useful in discerning the weakness of Zeta's machines—that the core rapidly overheated after prolonged use, and needed to open up in order to cool, rendering it vulnerable to attack. After the battle, Megatron plucked from Zeta's hand the "key"...which started to blink its lights and chirp. Zeta Prime informed them that the "key" he was actually a device that activated the real key: [[Omega Supreme (WFC)|Omega Supreme]].<br />
<br />
As the three Decepticons flew away to track Omega, Soundwave noticed that the "key" was coming for them. Omega Supreme attacked, and thrust the Decepticons' star cruiser into a wall. Crash-landing, Megatron had a change of plans; force Omega Supreme to open the Omega Gate. Soundwave noticed a [[Decepticon Drop Ship]] across the bridge, but when the squad went to investigate, Omega Supreme intercepted them. Soundwave reported that his weapons were ineffective; Megatron told his soldiers to destroy the bridge supports, causing Omega Supreme's vast bulk to collapse it. But he transformed to his ship mode, flew back up, and forced the Decepticons to retreat inside. In a frenzy, Breakdown noted that the next door was locked, and Soundwave proposed that Dark Energon could open the door, which it did. Inside, Soundwave picked up a transmission from Starscream, who announced that he would be replacing the "deceased" Megatron as Decepticon leader. Enraged, Megatron threatened Starscream, but Soundwave informed his leader that communication to the surface had been cut off, so Starscream could not hear him.<br />
<br />
The trio arrived at the lift, but found it to be locked down. Breaking the locks got the lift back to working condition, but on their way up, Omega Supreme returned and blasted it, forcing the Decepticons down the shaft at breakneck speed. Omega was still out there, so the emergency brakes' destruction was the Decepticons' only hope. At the bottom, they continued their journey to find a way to fight Omega Supreme—Soundwave noted that at the top of the tower were several heavy weapons emplacements which could at least theoretically damage Omega—but Omega Supreme didn't know the meaning of the word quit. (He really doesn't; not much in the processor department.) He grabbed the Decepticons, but Soundwave helped out in shooting Omega Supreme's hand, forcing him relinquishing the three from his grasp. They retreated inside a fortified Autobot position, and in order to prevent detection, Soundwave jammed their signals. Slaying the Autobots inside who dared attempt to counterattack, Soundwave unlocked the exit, which only let in more Autobots. They too, met their demise, but as Soundwave and his comrades escaped, he noticed that the Autobots' security was countering the effects of Dark Energon. Destroying the sentries turned to be a worthwhile solution, but then the Decepticons had to deal with Omega Supreme mining road. Soundwave's sensors indicated the presence of a bridge nearby, and though Breakdown was unsure, Megatron was willing to follow Soundwave's advice. Once again, Omega Supreme continued to stalk them, but Soundwave led his group to an alternate route...a dead end, to be precise, which Megatron was irritated with. Soundwave revealed that breaking a structurally-weak sealed doorway nearby took them to Iacon maintenance tunnels leading straight to the bridge terminal. When they arrived through the power conduits, Soundwave and the others fought through more Autobots and finally activated the bridge.<br />
<br />
Racing across the bridge, they barely avoided Omega Supreme's pursuit, and Soundwave located another cargo lift that would transport them straight to the heavy ion turrets. On the lift he picked up several Autobot/Decepticon signals, a sign they were approaching the battle on the surface. Soundwave participated in the slugfest, and his analysis proved that the turrets nearby had enough firepower to legitimately damage Omega Supreme. Then, he showed no mercy using the turrets to breach Omega's armour and finally topple him to the ground below.<br />
<br />
Soundwave, Breakdown, and Megatron followed Omega, and at the bottom, they were surprised to see him survive and transform into his mighty robot mode. Soundwave noted that energon batteries produced from within Cybertron were the source of Omega's limitless endurance, and further advised the team on battling Omega; avoiding his tractor beams would allow them to live, and his turrets were vulnerable, making them the prime target. When the turrets were blown, Soundwave saw that the batteries were being used to repair them, and so it became an objective to corrupt them with Dark Energon. When Omega Supreme used the batteries to heal himself, he was instead weakened, allowing the Decepticons to critically injure him. Omega Supreme was still alive even after all of that, but much weaker. Soundwave observed that his chest plating had been damaged, and Megatron ordered Soundwave and Breakdown to blast it, and Omega Supreme fell at last. Soundwave advised Megatron that now would be a good time to corrupt Omega with Dark Energon, but Megatron told Captain Obvious to shut up and did as he would have done even if Soundwave hadn't brought it up, laughing all the way.<br />
<br />
After Cybertron's Core had been infected with Dark Energon, Soundwave was reassigned as head of [[Kaon]]'s prison, and watched over (i.e., tortured) Zeta Prime in his spare time. [[Optimus Prime (Prime)|Optimus]], [[Bumblebee (Prime)|Bumblebee]], [[Sideswipe (WFC)|Sideswipe]] and [[Air Raid (WFC)|Air Raid]] led an Autobot breakout and battled Soundwave's minions [[Frenzy (WFC)|Frenzy]], [[Rumble (WFC)|Rumble]] and [[Laserbeak (Prime)|Laserbeak]]. Soundwave himself sustained heavy damage leaving the safety of his position to revive and retrieve each Minicon, showing uncharaceristic concern for other living beings. Eventually, defeated and critically damaged, Soundwave desperately attempted to restore himself by absorbing life force from Zeta's very own spark. His attempt to fully heal was halted by Optimus, who even took a shot from the Decepticon intended to finish off Prime. Although Soundwave and his minions fled, the damage had already been done and Zeta Prime expired moments later. {{storylink|Transformers: War for Cybertron (360/PS3/PC)|Transformers: War for Cybertron}}<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
===''Transformers: War for Cybertron'' (DS)===<br />
:''Voice actor:'' [[Isaac C. Singleton, Jr.]] (English)<br />
Soundwave hacked into the Autobot mainframe and, while Megatron and some other Decepticons kept the Autobots distracted, downloaded intel indicating the location of the Trypticon space station. As they approached the station in Megatron's ship, Soundwave reported that the inhabitants were taking up defensive positions and docking would not be possible. Though Megatron was confident they could ram the station, Soundwave turned out to be right, and they could only get close enough to drop a small team off on the debris surrounding the station. When the station was conquered and Dark Energon in Megatron's hands, Soundwave suggested it might be a good idea to test the stuff prior to use. It turned out to be unstable, and he warned it could result in destruction of its host. The Decepticons set up Kaon Prison as a testing ground and, after eleven failures, established that the Dark Energon could be used. When Barricade asked what happened to the failures, Soundwave would only say that their remains laid in the prison and creepily ask Barricade to get in the chair so he too could be infused with Dark Energon.<br />
<br />
Trypticon station required more power, so the Decepticons sent a team to Cybertron's core to reactivate the Energon Bridge. Soundwave did not anticipate the activation of latent defense systems, triggered by the Decepticon presence, because he hadn't studied the same ancient files as Starscream. Megatron ordered Soundwave to give Starscream whatever he needed, and they succeeded in activating the bridge. Soundwave reported that they were only at 37% power — the Autobots had severed the bridge's link to the core using the Omega Key. Lazerbeak intercepted an Autobot transmission indicating that Zeta Prime was hiding the Omega Key, and Megatron ordered Soundwave to assemble a strike force to obtain it. They managed to find and defeat the Autobot leader, but the Omega Key he had was only the key to awaken the real key — Omega Supreme. Once the Decepticons fought their way through the Autobot defenses, Soundwave reported they had reached Omega Supreme himself. The Decepticons defeated the giant, reestablished the link to the core and infused it with Dark Energon. {{storylink|Transformers: War for Cybertron (DS)}}<br />
<br />
===''Transformers: Cybertron Adventures''===<br />
:''Voice actor:'' [[Isaac C. Singleton, Jr.]] (English), [[Claudio Moneta]] (Italian)<br />
<br />
{{charstubfiction}}<br />
{{storylink|Transformers: Cybertron Adventures}}<br />
<br />
===''Terrorcon Defense''===<br />
[[Image:SoundwaveTerrorconDefense.jpg|300px|thumb|As awesome as he looks here, he's probably waltzing off after Bumblebee blasted him ''again''.]]<br />
{{charstubfiction}}<br />
{{storylink|Transformers Prime: Terrorcon Defense}}<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
==Commercial appearances==<br />
[[Image:WFC Gamestop Commercial.jpg|left|150px|thumb|The toy can do this if you try hard enough.]]<br />
[[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]] arrived to a location where [[Megatron (Prime)|Megatron]], [[Starscream (Prime)|Starscream]], and Soundwave were battling Autobots. Megatron left, leaving Shockwave in charge. Shockwave ordered Soundwave to [[Transformation|Transform]]. Soundwave changed into Cybertronian boombox mode and played [[The Touch]]. {{storylink|Commercial#War for Cybertron|GameSpot's commercial for their Shockwave multiplayer exclusive}}<br />
{{--}}<br />
<br />
==Toys==<br />
===Generations===<br />
[[Image:Generationstoy-CybertronianSoundwave.jpg|thumb|300px|No [[Soundwave (Animated)|giant guitar]] this time!]]<br />
*'''Cybertronian Soundwave''' (Deluxe, 2010)<br />
:*''Accessories:'' two "weapons"<br />
<br />
: This toy is based on Soundwave's appearance in the video game ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (360/PS3/PC)|Transformers: War for Cybertron]]'', transforming into a Cybertronian SUV-type vehicle. Soundwave comes with his classic shoulder launcher and rifle, both of which can store inside his opening chest, approximating the visual of cassette spools. The weapons can also attach to either side of the vehicle mode. Soundwave's head features a [[light-piping]] gimmick, but the effect is largely neutered by his painted visor. <br />
<br />
: This mold was [[redeco]]ed into ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#United|Soundwave Cybertron Mode]].<br />
{{--}}<br />
<br />
===Prime===<br />
{{anchor|Revealer}}<br />
[[Image:Primetoy-SoundwaveDeluxe.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Toy doesn't talk, just like in the tv show!]]<br />
*'''Soundwave''' (Deluxe, 2012)<br />
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''AM-09'''<br />
**''Accessories:'' [[Laserbeak (Prime)|Laserbeak]], [[Zori]] Arms Micron (TakaraTomy only)<br />
<br />
: Soundwave transforms from a UAV not unlike the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper Predator B drone] into an angular batlike robot mode. His transformation includes a spring-loaded head that deploys automatically when his tail and thrust bottle are folded up. His vehicle mode has a [[5mm post|5mm port]] on the top of its fuselage; the robot also has 5mm sockets passing entirely through his palms. Any of these holes can mount the included Laserbeak, or he can store inside Soundwave's chest in either mode.<br />
<br />
: The [[TakaraTomy]] release of Soundwave has considerable differences from the [[Hasbro]] version. Many of the Hasbro [[paint operation]]s have been removed and replaced with customer-applied [[decal]]s. A set of 5mm-port canons have been added to his wings (on his shoulders in robot mode) in order to accommodate the [[Arms Micron]] gimmick. As such, he comes with his own Arms Micron, [[Zori]].<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:TfprimeSoundwavePredator.jpg|thumb|But can he replay footage of "[[Operation: Firestorm]]"?]]<br />
*Soundwave transforms into a Cybertronian car during gameplay of ''War for Cybertron'', and his toy does the same, having only one alternate mode. However, in a ''War for Cybertron'' cutscene, the Gamestop commercial for Shockwave, and the end credits for ''War for Cybertron'', he is additionally shown to transform into a Cybertronian boombox, which the toy can technically do with some fiddling.<br />
<br />
*Despite his toy and concept art appearance, Soundwave has a ''yellow'' visor in-game. [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Generation 1|''Hmmm''...]]<br />
<br />
*According to the [[Transformers Hall of Fame]] biography, Soundwave [[Perceptor (Animated)|deleted his emotions to process information more quickly]], and is susceptible to [[Cyber Missions 1|too many sonic booms]].<br />
<br />
*[[Duane Capizzi]] said Soundwave can speak, but just chooses not to. The decision was to contrast Soundwave with the overly talkative Starscream,<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-prime-39/bonus-q--a-with-transformers-prime-creators---answered-171430/ TFW2005 Q&A January 2011]</ref> and at [[BotCon 2011]], the staff compared Soundwave to [[Boba Fett]]. Instead, he records what he overhears and replays it with a mechanical echo that is very similar to the echo of his G1 counterpart. Sorry, [[Frank Welker| Frank]], only [[Megatron (Prime)|one character]] for now...<br />
<br />
* Soundwave's prehensile tentacles are reminiscent of [[Soundwave (ROTF)|another Soundwave]], although they are significantly less naughty.<br />
<br />
===Foreign names===<br />
*''Japanese:'' '''Soundwave''' (サウンドウェーブ ''Saundowēbu'')<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
<br />
<references/><br />
<br />
[[Category:Generations]]<br />
[[Category:Gladiators]]<br />
[[Category:Hall of Fame]]<br />
[[Category:Prime Decepticons]]<br />
[[Category:Spies]]<br />
[[Category:War for Cybertron Decepticons]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=The_Stunti-Con_Job&diff=600912The Stunti-Con Job2011-06-23T02:20:42Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Timelines (fiction)|Transformers Timelines]]'' #6<br />
|prev=Generation 2: Redux<br />
|next=<br />
|seriesissue2=[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]<br />
|prev2=Endgame, Part II<br />
|title="The Stunti-Con Job"<br />
|image=TFA-comic Stunticon Cover.jpg|caption=It's like ''[[wikipedia:Victor Victoria|Victor Victoria]]'', only with giant robots and no romance.<br />
|publisher=[[Fun Publications]]<br />
|date=[[BotCon 2011]], [[June 2]], [[2011]]<br>??? [[2011]] (retail edition)<br />
|story=[[Marty Isenberg]], [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] & [[Matt Youngberg]]<br />
|writer=Marty Isenberg<br />
|pencils=[[Marcelo Matere]]<br />
|inks=[[Marcelo Matere]]<br />
|colors=[[Thomas Deer]] and [[Jesse Wittenrich]]<br />
|letters=Jesse Wittenrich<br />
|editor=[[Pete Sinclair]]<br />
|price=<br />
|continuity=[[Animated cartoon continuity]]<br />
}}<br />
'''Two cop-bots on the trail of stolen weapons and body mods stumble upon a far more sinister plot.'''<br />
<br />
==Synopsis==<br />
{{note|Events in italics occurred exclusively in [[BotCon 2011]]'s "The Stunti-Con Job" script reading.}}<br />
Sideswipe reflects on the reaction of the Cybertronian public to Optimus Prime's successful capture of Megatron. He recalls Sentinel Magnus' sense of irony in commissioning the conversion of the derelict Decepticon fortress of Trypticon into a new prison to house its former masters, right in the heart of Kaon. Indeed, general public sentiment is extremely optimistic, with talk even of the dawning of a new golden age in Cybertronian history. Sideswipe however is unimpressed, as he has more important things to see to. The veteran cop is nearing retirement, with just one case he'd like to solve before he's done: a rash of thefts of modifications and weaponry. Unfortunately for him, he's been partnered with Cheetor, a recently transferred rookie with a severe disregard for his or anyone else's safety.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-nowheretorun.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
The trail leads to "legitimate business bot" Rattletrap, who has been attempting to sell the "authentic" energy axe that took down Megatron. Cheetor in his enthusiasm tackles the criminal, and starts to browbeat him. Sideswipe reminds the rookie that if they're going to play good cop/bad cop, they can't both be bad cops. Resuming the interrogation with Sideswipe taking the lead this time, Rattletrap was questioned about the axe. Forced to admit it was a fake when brought before Optimus Prime himself, he revealed that it was a prop he had stolen from a local performing troupe: Motor Master's Stunt Convoy. Pressed for more information, Rattletrap also claims that he saw a large stockpile of stolen modifications backstage at the show.<br />
<br />
Cheetor, apparently having watched too many police drama holovids, charges into the show's rehearsal with guns blazing. Thankfully, he only manages to hit Breakdown, and is shortly thereafter yelled off the set by Wildrider. The rehearsal continues while Sentinel Magnus and Optimus Prime look on. The plot, apparently heavily influenced by Sentinel, involves Dragstrip being chased by the other Stunticons until she is rescued by Toxitron. The Stunticons then turn tail and flee when confronted by a giant hologram of Sentinel Magnus. Optimus asks if this might well be a bit over the top, but Sentinel replies that he intends it to be visible from Megatron's cell. The rehearsal is again interrupted, this time by the director when Toxitron brandishes his "axe thingy" which is in reality a rather large plunger. Asked where his replica axe went, Toxitron is dumbfounded until Sideswipe and Cheetor show that they are in possession of it. Pressing the advantage of surprise, they ask to look backstage. However, all they find is the various supplies for the stage effects. Sentinel Magnus orders the Autotroopers to escort them out.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-Ironfistlab.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
Upon returning to the precinct, Sideswipe and Cheetor discover an odd detail. None of the Stunticons have any records on file, which means they can't perform a background check. However they have little time to ponder the implications of this, as an Autotrooper informs them there's been a break-in at Ironfist's workshop. Hurrying over, they find the place ransacked, many of the Autobot engineer's weapons projects already stolen, and Ironfist himself lying wounded on the floor. Still online, he is questioned by Sideswipe, but only manages to sputter out the name of Optimus Prime. Looking up, the duo see a silhouette that does indeed resemble the Autobot hero, but Cheetor recalls their time at Motor Master's show. He fires at the window to reveal the oozing form of Toxitron! Cheetor opens fire, heedless of Ironfist's warnings about the manifold munitions surrounding them. Miraculously, he manages to not blow everyone to Nebulos, and Toxitron is apprehended. Sideswipe however is less than impressed with Cheetor's methods, as they continue to endanger his ability to live to retirement. Cheetor retorts by reminding Sideswipe of the rumors of his youth, wondering why he can't be more like he once was. Sideswipe grumbles that he found something to live for.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-interrogation.jpg|right|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
Under the hot lights, Toxitron proves a tough nut to crack. Part of this is due to the fact that the addled doppelganger doesn't really understand plea bargaining, continually demanding a longer sentence. With such an unreliable interrogation suspect, the security bots find it difficult to make the charges stick, and ultimately have to release Toxitron. This leaves them with the unenviable task of filling out the datatrax regarding the stolen modifications. While doing so, they begin to notice a disturbing pattern: while some of the stolen goods actually are modifications, the vast majority is excavation equipment and explosives. This connects in with the fact that the Stunticons' show is right next door to the prison, perfect for staging a jailbreak of Megatron himself! Meanwhile deep in the tunnel they'd dug, Wildrider reports to General Strika that not only will the plan to blow open Trypticon go off without a hitch, none of the Autobots attending the show will survive its finale.<br />
<br />
[[Image:TFA-comic Stunticon TeamChaar.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
The defense bots barely arrive at the show in time to stop it. Realizing they've been discovered, the Stunticons go on the attack, revealing that the stolen modifications had been installed directly into them. With the possible exception of Breakdown's abominable luck, the Stunticons have Cheetor and Sideswipe on the ropes until an unlikely savior barges in. Toxitron plows through his troupe-mates, only to reveal himself as Optimus Prime in disguise. He had convinced Ironfist to equip him with an electronic paintjob, and used his heroic reputation to talk the Autotroopers into making the switch. Playing a recording of the Stunticons from his infiltration, he reveals their plan to the whole stadium. Desperate, Motor Master takes Sideswipe hostage, threatening to blow his head off and detonate the explosives unless the Decepticons in Trypticon are released immediately. Sideswipe acts on instinct, grabbing a nearby energy axe and firing its rocket engine, knocking Motor Master back and enabling the defense bot to grab the detonator. In a turnabout, Cheetor asks Sideswipe if he was trying to get them all scrapped. Sideswipe tells Cheetor that there was no chance he was going to let Motor Master ruin his retirement.<br />
<br />
The Stunticons are imprisoned in Trypticon, along with the very Decepticons they were trying to break out. Sideswipe begins his retirement on a placid energon farm, looking up at what he believes to be a meteor shower. Soon though, he realizes that these are no meteors, but the descending forms of [[Team Chaar]]!<br />
<br />
==Featured characters==<br />
{{featuredcharacters|c1=<br />
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"<br />
{{!}}-<br />
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}<br />
* [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] (4)<br />
* [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] (6)<br />
* [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] (7)<br />
* [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] (8)<br />
* [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] (9)<br />
* [[Hubcap (Animated)|Hubcap]] (10)<br />
* [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime/Magnus]] (11)<br />
* [[Warpath (Animated)|Warpath]] (12)<br />
* [[High Wire (Animated)|High Wire]] (13)<br />
* [[Leader-1 (Animated)|Leader-1]] (14)<br />
* [[Longarm (Animated Mini-Con)|Longarm]] (15)<br />
* [[Grindor (Animated)|Grindor]] (16)<br />
* [[Sureshock (Animated)|Sureshock]] (17)<br />
* [[Autotrooper]] (18)<br />
* [[Sideswipe (Animated)|Sideswipe]] (19)<br />
* [[Cheetor (Animated)|Cheetor]] (20)<br />
* [[Rattletrap]] (21)<br />
* [[Ironfist (Animated)|Ironfist]] (28)<br />
* [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] (30)<br />
* [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Alpha Trion]] (31)<br />
* [[Perceptor (Animated)|Perceptor]] (32)<br />
* [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]] (33)<br />
* [[Botanica (Animated)|Botanica]] (34)<br />
* [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]] (35)<br />
* [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] (36)<br />
* [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] (37)<br />
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}<br />
* [[Brawn (Animated)|Brawn]] (38)<br />
* [[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] (39)<br />
* [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime]] (40)<br />
* [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] (41)<br />
* [[Hot Shot (Animated)|Hot Shot]] (42)<br />
* [[Bumper (Animated)|Bumper]] (43)<br />
* [[Sedan (Animated)|Sedan]] (44)<br />
* [[Grandus (Animated)|Grandus]] (45)<br />
* [[Mirage (Animated)|Mirage]] (46)<br />
* [[Powerglide (Animated)|Powerglide]] (47)<br />
* [[Longrack (Animated)|Longrack]] (48)<br />
* [[Rosanna (Animated)|Rosanna]] (49)<br />
* [[Pipes (Animated)|Pipes]] (50)<br />
* [[Huffer (Animated)|Huffer]] (51)<br />
* [[Minerva (Animated)|Minerva]] (52)<br />
* [[Cosmos (Animated)|Cosmos]] (53)<br />
* [[Tracks (Animated)|Tracks]] (54)<br />
* [[Tap-Out (Animated)|Tap-Out]] (55)<br />
* [[Flareup (Animated)|Flareup]] (56)<br />
* [[Lickety-Split]] (57)<br />
* [[Wheelie (Animated)|Wheelie]] (58)<br />
* [[Chase (Animated)|Chase]] (59)<br />
* [[Searchlight (Animated)|Searchlight]] (60)<br />
* [[Freeway (Animated)|Freeway]] (61)<br />
* [[Lightbright]] (62)<br />
* [[Erector (Animated)|Erector]] (63)<br />
{{!}}}<br />
<br />
|c2=<br />
* [[Lugnut (Animated)|Lugnut]] (1)<br />
* [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] (2)<br />
* [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] (3)<br />
* [[Wildrider (Animated)|Wildrider]] (22)<br />
* [[The Motor Master]] (23)<br />
* [[Drag Strip (Animated)|Drag Strip]] (24)<br />
* [[Dead End (Animated)|Dead End]] (25)<br />
* [[Breakdown (Animated)|Breakdown]] (26)<br />
* [[Toxitron]] (27)<br />
* [[Strika (Animated)|Strika]] (29)<br />
* [[Blot (Animated)|Blot]] (64)<br />
* [[Sky-Byte (Animated)|Sky-Byte]] (65)<br />
* [[Mindwipe (Animated)|Mindwipe]] (66)<br />
* [[Oil Slick (Animated)|Oil Slick]] (67)<br />
* [[Scalpel (Animated)|Scalpel]] (68)<br />
|c3=<br />
* [[Sari Sumdac]] (5)<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
"We already got you on trespassing, breaking-and-entering and possession of stolen goods. You're looking at ten thousand stellar cycles in the stockade minimum."<br><br />
"No deal. Toxitron am take ''twenty'' thousand stellar cycles."<br><br />
"You do realize you're supposed to plea bargain your sentence ''down'', right?"<br><br />
"Okay. Thirty thousand and not one nanoklik less."<br><br />
:— '''Sideswipe''' finds '''Toxitron''' a tough nut to crack<br />
<br />
<br />
"General Strika, Ma'am! The Motor Master is pleased to report The Motor Master's prison break mission is proceeding exactly as The Motor Master planned!"<br />
:— Guess who.<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
* This story takes place shortly after the events of "[[Endgame, Part II]]".<br />
* While [[Marty Isenberg]] is credited with the final script, [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] and [[Matt Youngberg]] collaborated with him on the main story direction and how to work it in with their (yet unrealized) plans for season 4.<br />
* Upon entering the arena, Cheetor has two chainsaw-weapons, though his toy only has one. Good luck replicating that scene!<br />
* The ''Animated'' versions of Wheelie and Mirage, previously seen only in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II]]'', make their first fictional appearances here.<br />
<br />
===Errors===<br />
* Drag Strip and Toxitron play the role of Autobots in Motor Master's Stunt Convoy, yet have Decepticon symbols.<br />
* On page 9, Sideswipe is colored as Breakdown as he watches Breakdown, Dead End and The Motor Master menace Drag Strip in the distance.<br />
* On page 17:<br />
** The radar-thingy on Grandus's shoulder is colored as part of Pipes's hand.<br />
** Hubcap's open mouth is colored light gray like the rest of his faceplate.<br />
** Bulkhead's fingers are the same color as his arm.<br />
* On page 18, the black borders under Alpha Trion's eyes are colored like the rest of his face.<br />
<br />
===Real-world references===<br />
* The comic's cover is based on the movie poster for the classic 1969 British caper film ''[[Wikipedia:The Italian Job|The Italian Job]]''.<br />
<br />
===Transformers references===<br />
* The cover has a promotional blurb from [[Rook (Universe)|Rook]] on it as part of the "movie poster" theme.<br />
* On page 3, the perp-bots on Sideswipe's monitor are [[Beachcomber (Animated)|Beachcomber]], [[Scrounge (Animated)|Scrounge]], [[Jackpot (Animated)|Jackpot]], Rattletrap and [[Mudflap (Animated)|Mudflap]].<br />
* Sideswipe's drink mug has [[Kremzeek]] on it.<br />
* When Rattletrap desperately proposes working together with his captors, Cheetor snarks "[[Beast Wars (franchise)|In another lifetime, maybe.]]"<br />
* The "jumobtron" screen on page 6 shows the box art for the [[BotCon 2011]] convention toy set.<br />
* Sentinel Magnus's new duds include a pair of big shoulderpads and cape that are ''eerily'' similar to the kind worn by [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.<br />
* When Cheetor starts shooting at Toxitron in Ironfist's lab, Sideswipe prepares "to be blown clear to [[Nebulos]]".<br />
*In the stadium scene, Cliffjumper has the crushed cube that was once Blurr. So they DID find him! <ref>http://twitter.com/mmatere/status/83717348128862208</ref><br />
<br />
===Covers===<br />
* '''BotCon Edition:''' Image based on the movie poster for ''[[wikipedia:The Italian Job|The Italian Job]]''. Pencils & inks by [[Alex Milne]], colors by [[Josh Perez]].<br />
* '''Diamond Edition:''' <br />
<gallery><br />
Image:TFA-comic Stunticon Cover.jpg<br />
Image:TFA-comic Stunticon DiamondCover.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Stunti-Con Job}}<br />
[[Category:Animated issues]]<br />
[[Category:Timelines issues]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=The_Stunti-Con_Job&diff=600911The Stunti-Con Job2011-06-23T02:19:53Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Timelines (fiction)|Transformers Timelines]]'' #6<br />
|prev=Generation 2: Redux<br />
|next=<br />
|seriesissue2=[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]<br />
|prev2=Endgame, Part II<br />
|title="The Stunti-Con Job"<br />
|image=TFA-comic Stunticon Cover.jpg|caption=It's like ''[[wikipedia:Victor Victoria|Victor Victoria]]'', only with giant robots and no romance.<br />
|publisher=[[Fun Publications]]<br />
|date=[[BotCon 2011]], [[June 2]], [[2011]]<br>??? [[2011]] (retail edition)<br />
|story=[[Marty Isenberg]], [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] & [[Matt Youngberg]]<br />
|writer=Marty Isenberg<br />
|pencils=[[Marcelo Matere]]<br />
|inks=[[Marcelo Matere]]<br />
|colors=[[Thomas Deer]] and [[Jesse Wittenrich]]<br />
|letters=Jesse Wittenrich<br />
|editor=[[Pete Sinclair]]<br />
|price=<br />
|continuity=[[Animated cartoon continuity]]<br />
}}<br />
'''Two cop-bots on the trail of stolen weapons and body mods stumble upon a far more sinister plot.'''<br />
<br />
==Synopsis==<br />
{{note|Events in italics occurred exclusively in [[BotCon 2011]]'s "The Stunti-Con Job" script reading.}}<br />
Sideswipe reflects on the reaction of the Cybertronian public to Optimus Prime's successful capture of Megatron. He recalls Sentinel Magnus' sense of irony in commissioning the conversion of the derelict Decepticon fortress of Trypticon into a new prison to house its former masters, right in the heart of Kaon. Indeed, general public sentiment is extremely optimistic, with talk even of the dawning of a new golden age in Cybertronian history. Sideswipe however is unimpressed, as he has more important things to see to. The veteran cop is nearing retirement, with just one case he'd like to solve before he's done: a rash of thefts of modifications and weaponry. Unfortunately for him, he's been partnered with Cheetor, a recently transferred rookie with a severe disregard for his or anyone else's safety.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-nowheretorun.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
The trail leads to "legitimate business bot" Rattletrap, who has been attempting to sell the "authentic" energy axe that took down Megatron. Cheetor in his enthusiasm tackles the criminal, and starts to browbeat him. Sideswipe reminds the rookie that if they're going to play good cop/bad cop, they can't both be bad cops. Resuming the interrogation with Sideswipe taking the lead this time, Rattletrap was questioned about the axe. Forced to admit it was a fake when brought before Optimus Prime himself, he revealed that it was a prop he had stolen from a local performing troupe: Motor Master's Stunt Convoy. Pressed for more information, Rattletrap also claims that he saw a large stockpile of stolen modifications backstage at the show.<br />
<br />
Cheetor, apparently having watched too many police drama holovids, charges into the show's rehearsal with guns blazing. Thankfully, he only manages to hit Breakdown, and is shortly thereafter yelled off the set by Wildrider. The rehearsal continues while Sentinel Magnus and Optimus Prime look on. The plot, apparently heavily influenced by Sentinel, involves Dragstrip being chased by the other Stunticons until she is rescued by Toxitron. The Stunticons then turn tail and flee when confronted by a giant hologram of Sentinel Magnus. Optimus asks if this might well be a bit over the top, but Sentinel replies that he intends it to be visible from Megatron's cell. The rehearsal is again interrupted, this time by the director when Toxitron brandishes his "axe thingy" which is in reality a rather large plunger. Asked where his replica axe went, Toxitron is dumbfounded until Sideswipe and Cheetor show that they are in possession of it. Pressing the advantage of surprise, they ask to look backstage. However, all they find is the various supplies for the stage effects. Sentinel Magnus orders the Autotroopers to escort them out.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-Ironfistlab.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
Upon returning to the precinct, Sideswipe and Cheetor discover an odd detail. None of the Stunticons have any records on file, which means they can't perform a background check. However they have little time to ponder the implications of this, as an Autotrooper informs them there's been a break-in at Ironfist's workshop. Hurrying over, they find the place ransacked, many of the Autobot engineer's weapons projects already stolen, and Ironfist himself lying wounded on the floor. Still online, he is questioned by Sideswipe, but only manages to sputter out the name of Optimus Prime. Looking up, the duo see a silhouette that does indeed resemble the Autobot hero, but Cheetor recalls their time at Motor Master's show. He fires at the window to reveal the oozing form of Toxitron! Cheetor opens fire, heedless of Ironfist's warnings about the manifold munitions surrounding them. Miraculously, he manages to not blow everyone to Nebulos, and Toxitron is apprehended. Sideswipe however is less than impressed with Cheetor's methods, as they continue to endanger his ability to live to retirement. Cheetor retorts by reminding Sideswipe of the rumors of his youth, wondering why he can't be more like he once was. Sideswipe grumbles that he found something to live for.<br />
<br />
[[Image:StuntiConJob-interrogation.jpg|right|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
Under the hot lights, Toxitron proves a tough nut to crack. Part of this is due to the fact that the addled doppelganger doesn't really understand plea bargaining, continually demanding a longer sentence. With such an unreliable interrogation suspect, the security bots find it difficult to make the charges stick, and ultimately have to release Toxitron. This leaves them with the unenviable task of filling out the datatrax regarding the stolen modifications. While doing so, they begin to notice a disturbing pattern: while some of the stolen goods actually are modifications, the vast majority is excavation equipment and explosives. This connects in with the fact that the Stunticons' show is right next door to the prison, perfect for staging a jailbreak of Megatron himself! Meanwhile deep in the tunnel they'd dug, Wildrider reports to General Strika that not only will the plan to blow open Trypticon go off without a hitch, none of the Autobots attending the show will survive its finale.<br />
<br />
[[Image:TFA-comic Stunticon TeamChaar.jpg|left|thumb|200px]]<br />
<br />
The defense bots barely arrive at the show in time to stop it. Realizing they've been discovered, the Stunticons go on the attack, revealing that the stolen modifications had been installed directly into them. With the possible exception of Breakdown's abominable luck, the Stunticons have Cheetor and Sideswipe on the ropes until an unlikely savior barges in. Toxitron plows through his troupe-mates, only to reveal himself as Optimus Prime in disguise. He had convinced Ironfist to equip him with an electronic paintjob, and used his heroic reputation to talk the Autotroopers into making the switch. Playing a recording of the Stunticons from his infiltration, he reveals their plan to the whole stadium. Desperate, Motor Master takes Sideswipe hostage, threatening to blow his head off and detonate the explosives unless the Decepticons in Trypticon are released immediately. Sideswipe acts on instinct, grabbing a nearby energy axe and firing its rocket engine, knocking Motor Master back and enabling the defense bot to grab the detonator. In a turnabout, Cheetor asks Sideswipe if he was trying to get them all scrapped. Sideswipe tells Cheetor that there was no chance he was going to let Motor Master ruin his retirement.<br />
<br />
The Stunticons are imprisoned in Trypticon, along with the very Decepticons they were trying to break out. Sideswipe begins his retirement on a placid energon farm, looking up at what he believes to be a meteor shower. Soon though, he realizes that these are no meteors, but the descending forms of [[Team Chaar]]!<br />
<br />
==Featured characters==<br />
{{featuredcharacters|c1=<br />
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"<br />
{{!}}-<br />
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}<br />
* [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] (4)<br />
* [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] (6)<br />
* [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] (7)<br />
* [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] (8)<br />
* [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] (9)<br />
* [[Hubcap (Animated)|Hubcap]] (10)<br />
* [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime/Magnus]] (11)<br />
* [[Warpath (Animated)|Warpath]] (12)<br />
* [[High Wire (Animated)|High Wire]] (13)<br />
* [[Leader-1 (Animated)|Leader-1]] (14)<br />
* [[Longarm (Animated Mini-Con)|Longarm]] (15)<br />
* [[Grindor (Animated)|Grindor]] (16)<br />
* [[Sureshock (Animated)|Sureshock]] (17)<br />
* [[Autotrooper]] (18)<br />
* [[Sideswipe (Animated)|Sideswipe]] (19)<br />
* [[Cheetor (Animated)|Cheetor]] (20)<br />
* [[Rattletrap]] (21)<br />
* [[Ironfist (Animated)|Ironfist]] (28)<br />
* [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] (30)<br />
* [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Alpha Trion]] (31)<br />
* [[Perceptor (Animated)|Perceptor]] (32)<br />
* [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]] (33)<br />
* [[Botanica (Animated)|Botanica]] (34)<br />
* [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]] (35)<br />
* [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] (36)<br />
* [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] (37)<br />
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}<br />
* [[Brawn (Animated)|Brawn]] (38)<br />
* [[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] (39)<br />
* [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime]] (40)<br />
* [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] (41)<br />
* [[Hot Shot (Animated)|Hot Shot]] (42)<br />
* [[Bumper (Animated)|Bumper]] (43)<br />
* [[Sedan (Animated)|Sedan]] (44)<br />
* [[Grandus (Animated)|Grandus]] (45)<br />
* [[Mirage (Animated)|Mirage]] (46)<br />
* [[Powerglide (Animated)|Powerglide]] (47)<br />
* [[Longrack (Animated)|Longrack]] (48)<br />
* [[Rosanna (Animated)|Rosanna]] (49)<br />
* [[Pipes (Animated)|Pipes]] (50)<br />
* [[Huffer (Animated)|Huffer]] (51)<br />
* [[Minerva (Animated)|Minerva]] (52)<br />
* [[Cosmos (Animated)|Cosmos]] (53)<br />
* [[Tracks (Animated)|Tracks]] (54)<br />
* [[Tap-Out (Animated)|Tap-Out]] (55)<br />
* [[Flareup (Animated)|Flareup]] (56)<br />
* [[Lickety-Split]] (57)<br />
* [[Wheelie (Animated)|Wheelie]] (58)<br />
* [[Chase (Animated)|Chase]] (59)<br />
* [[Searchlight (Animated)|Searchlight]] (60)<br />
* [[Freeway (Animated)|Freeway]] (61)<br />
* [[Lightbright]] (62)<br />
* [[Erector (Animated)|Erector]] (63)<br />
{{!}}}<br />
<br />
|c2=<br />
* [[Lugnut (Animated)|Lugnut]] (1)<br />
* [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] (2)<br />
* [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] (3)<br />
* [[Wildrider (Animated)|Wildrider]] (22)<br />
* [[The Motor Master]] (23)<br />
* [[Drag Strip (Animated)|Drag Strip]] (24)<br />
* [[Dead End (Animated)|Dead End]] (25)<br />
* [[Breakdown (Animated)|Breakdown]] (26)<br />
* [[Toxitron]] (27)<br />
* [[Strika (Animated)|Strika]] (29)<br />
* [[Blot (Animated)|Blot]] (64)<br />
* [[Sky-Byte (Animated)|Sky-Byte]] (65)<br />
* [[Mindwipe (Animated)|Mindwipe]] (66)<br />
* [[Oil Slick (Animated)|Oil Slick]] (67)<br />
* [[Scalpel (Animated)|Scalpel]] (68)<br />
|c3=<br />
* [[Sari Sumdac]] (5)<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Quotes==<br />
"We already got you on trespassing, breaking-and-entering and possession of stolen goods. You're looking at ten thousand stellar cycles in the stockade minimum."<br><br />
"No deal. Toxitron am take ''twenty'' thousand stellar cycles."<br><br />
"You do realize you're supposed to plea bargain your sentence ''down'', right?"<br><br />
"Okay. Thirty thousand and not one nanoklik less."<br><br />
:— '''Sideswipe''' finds '''Toxitron''' a tough nut to crack<br />
<br />
<br />
"General Strika, Ma'am! The Motor Master is pleased to report The Motor Master's prison break mission is proceeding exactly as The Motor Master planned!"<br />
:— Guess who.<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
* This story takes place shortly after the events of "[[Endgame, Part II]]".<br />
* While [[Marty Isenberg]] is credited with the final script, [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] and [[Matt Youngberg]] collaborated with him on the main story direction and how to work it in with their (yet unrealized) plans for season 4.<br />
* Upon entering the arena, Cheetor has two chainsaw-weapons, though his toy only has one. Good luck replicating that scene!<br />
* The ''Animated'' versions of Wheelie and Mirage, previously seen only in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II]]'', make their first fictional appearances here.<br />
<br />
===Errors===<br />
* Drag Strip and Toxitron play the role of Autobots in Motor Master's Stunt Convoy, yet have Decepticon symbols.<br />
* On page 9, Sideswipe is colored as Breakdown as he watches Breakdown, Dead End and The Motor Master menace Drag Strip in the distance.<br />
* On page 17:<br />
** The radar-thingy on Grandus's shoulder is colored as part of Pipes's hand.<br />
** Hubcap's open mouth is colored light gray like the rest of his faceplate.<br />
** Bulkhead's fingers are the same color as his arm.<br />
* On page 18, the black borders under Alpha Trion's eyes are colored like the rest of his face.<br />
<br />
===Real-world references===<br />
* The comic's cover is based on the movie poster for the classic 1969 British caper film ''[[Wikipedia:The Italian Job|The Italian Job]]''.<br />
<br />
===Transformers references===<br />
* The cover has a promotional blurb from [[Rook (Universe)|Rook]] on it as part of the "movie poster" theme.<br />
* On page 3, the perp-bots on Sideswipe's monitor are [[Beachcomber (Animated)|Beachcomber]], [[Scrounge (Animated)|Scrounge]], [[Jackpot (Animated)|Jackpot]], Rattletrap and [[Mudflap (Animated)|Mudflap]].<br />
* Sideswipe's drink mug has [[Kremzeek]] on it.<br />
* When Rattletrap desperately proposes working together with his captors, Cheetor snarks "[[Beast Wars (franchise)|In another lifetime, maybe.]]"<br />
* The "jumobtron" screen on page 6 shows the box art for the [[BotCon 2011]] convention toy set.<br />
* Sentinel Magnus's new duds include a pair of big shoulderpads and cape that are ''eerily'' similar to the kind worn by [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.<br />
* When Cheetor starts shooting at Toxitron in Ironfist's lab, Sideswipe prepares "to be blown clear to [[Nebulos]]".<br />
*In the stadium scene, Cliffjumper has the crushed cube that was once Blurr. So they DID find him! <ref>http://twitter.com/mmatere/status/83717348128862208</ref><br />
<br />
===Covers===<br />
* '''BotCon Edition:''' Image based on the movie poster for ''[[wikipedia:The Italian Job|The Italian Job]]''. Pencils & inks by [[Alex Milne]], colors by [[Josh Perez]].<br />
* '''Diamond Edition:''' <br />
<gallery><br />
Image:TFA-comic Stunticon Cover.jpg<br />
Image:TFA-comic Stunticon DiamondCover.jpg<br />
</gallery><br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Stunti-Con Job}}<br />
[[Category:Animated issues]]<br />
[[Category:Timelines issues]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:The_Stunti-Con_Job&diff=600910Talk:The Stunti-Con Job2011-06-23T02:13:56Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>So this leads straight into the cancelled season 4?--[[Special:Contributions/96.54.198.88|96.54.198.88]] 20:29, 15 June 2011 (EDT)<br />
<br />
'''Blurr?'''<br />
So anyone notice a little blue cube beside perceptor on page 19? Looks like Blurr to me-hupla<br />
:http://twitter.com/mmatere/status/83717348128862208 Any more questions? --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 22:13, 22 June 2011 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Bumblebee_(SG_Animated)&diff=596857Bumblebee (SG Animated)2011-06-14T04:02:11Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
{{disambig3|Bumblebee}}<br />
:''Bumblebee is an evil [[Autobot]] from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:Shattered_glass_bumblebee_bust.jpg|thumb|150px|His lips are the only ones to rival [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]]'.]]<br />
<br />
If the '''Bumblebee''' we've always known has been chipper and chatty, what does that make his negative counterpart? You guessed it. Quiet, back-stabbing, and prone to emit a cackle known only as "oil-curdling."<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
Due to his size, Bumblebee would prefer to mop up after a battle, rather than actually do any fighting. He hates [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Isaac Sumdac]] for his enslavement along with the other Autobots of his universe.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
* Bumblebee's coloration is based on [[BotCon 2007]]'s [[Bug Bite (G1)|Bug Bite]] toy.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Bumblebee and his continuity's [[Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)|Sari]] present a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=596593Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-13T20:07:48Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
<br />
You know that nice, sweet girl, [[Sari Sumdac]]? Yeah, this isn't that Sari. This '''Sari Sumdac''' collects eyes. Years of torture can do that to a girl. She hails from an alternate continuity from the normal Animated universe, where everything is flipped, turned upside down. Autobots are evil. Decepticons are good. [[Porter C. Powell]] is a nice guy. [[Shattered Glass|You know the deal.]]<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Issac Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobot]]s. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|Shattered Glass Sari, I choose you, [[Motormaster (Animated)|OHHHH YEEAH!]] ]]<br />
* Shattered Glass Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog,<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref> and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in ''[[Transformers Generations 2011]]'' Vol. 1.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari and [[Bumblebee (SG Animated)|other members]] of her universe present a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=596592Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-13T20:07:20Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
<br />
You know that nice, sweet girl, [[Sari Sumdac]]? Yeah, this isn't that Sari. This '''Sari Sumdac''' collects eyes. Years of torture can do that to a girl. She hails from an alternate continuity from the normal Animated universe, where everything is flipped, turned upside down. Autobots are evil. Decepticons are good. [[Porter C. Powell]] is a nice guy. [[Shattered Glass|You know the deal.]]<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Issac Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobot]]s. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|Shattered Glass Sari, I choose you, [[Motormaster (Animated)|OHHHH YEEAH!]] ]]<br />
* Shattered Glass Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog,<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref> and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in ''[[Transformers Generations 2011]]'' Vol. 1.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari and [[Bumblebee (SG Animated|other members]] of her universe present a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Bumblebee_(SG_Animated)&diff=596589Bumblebee (SG Animated)2011-06-13T19:59:00Z<p>Devastator: New page: {{factions|sgAutobot}} :''Bumblebee is an evil Autobot from the "Shattered Glass" Animated continuity family.'...</p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Bumblebee is an evil [[Autobot]] from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:Shattered_glass_bumblebee_bust.jpg|thumb|150px|Nice lips.]]<br />
<br />
If the '''Bumblebee''' we've always known has been chipper and chatty, what does that make his negative counterpart? You guessed it. Quiet, back-stabbing, and prone to emit a cackle known only as "oil-curdling."<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
Due to his size, Bumblebee would prefer to mop up after a battle, rather than actually fighting. He hates [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Issac Sumdac]] for his enslavement along with the other Autobots of his universe.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Bumblebee and his continuity's [[Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)|Sari]] present a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Hall of Fame]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=File:Shattered_glass_bumblebee_bust.jpg&diff=596586File:Shattered glass bumblebee bust.jpg2011-06-13T19:34:55Z<p>Devastator: Bust of Bumblebee (SG Animated) from Transformers Animated, drawn by Derrick J. Wyatt.
{{hastak}}
Copyright Hasbro, Cartoon Network
Category:Animated images
Category: Images by Derrick J. Wyatt</p>
<hr />
<div>Bust of [[Bumblebee (SG Animated)]] from [[Transformers Animated]], drawn by [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]. <br />
<br />
{{hastak}}<br />
<br />
Copyright Hasbro, Cartoon Network<br />
[[Category:Animated images]]<br />
[[Category: Images by Derrick J. Wyatt]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(Animated)&diff=592966Sari Sumdac (Animated)2011-06-05T01:48:27Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|autobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a techno-organic humanoid from the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:Sari_Animated.JPG|thumb|150px|[[Isaac Sumdac|Daddies]], don't let your babies grow up to be [[Kiss Player]]s.]]<br />
'''Sari Sumdac''', the [[technorganic]] daughter of robotics genius [[Isaac Sumdac]], used to not get out much. She spent all her time within her father's laboratories, receiving her education from [[Tutor Bot|robots]]. Despite this, she doesn't seem like a shut-in. She's curious, excitable, adventurous, and knows that crying can sometimes get her what she wants. She's just never known what it's like to be around other kids. Fortunately, she has [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] to help with that, and she claims that 'Bee is the best friend she's ever had. In fact, she's become very possessive of all her robotic friends.<br />
<br />
It was believed that Sari was a normal human, until it was revealed that she was made from a [[protoform]] and her father's DNA. Hence, the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] viewed her with great regard, bestowing upon her a [[AllSpark Key|key]] with miraculous powers (though her guardian, the robotic dog [[Sparkplug (robot dog)|Sparkplug]], thought it was just another chew toy).<br />
<br />
Since discovering her true origin, she has absorbed the power of her AllSpark-powered Key to gain incredible Cybertronian powers and abilities such as enhanced strength, speed, and the ability to create destructive spheres of pure white, glowing energy with her hands, as well as the power and ability to transform into an armored form with several technological weapons (most of which [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] was forced to seal away after she proved unable to control them). She also owns a scooter which can transform into a jet pack.<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' cartoon===<br />
{{Idw-tfa}}<br />
:''Voice actor:'' [[Tara Strong]] (English), [[Satomi Akesaka]] (Japanese), [[Tanja Schmitz]] (German), [[Agnieszka Wajs]] (Polish), [[Tosawi Piovani]] (Italian), [[Flora Paulita]] (Portuguese), [[Vanesa Silva Santiago|Vanesa Silva]] (Latin American Spanish, season 1 and 2), [[Shirley Marulanda]] (Latin American Spanish, season 3), [[Adeline Chetail]] (French), [[Park Sinhui]] (Korean)<br />
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[[Image:TransWarpedProtoform.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Megatron was also a cute little protoform like this once. Makes you think, doesn't it?]]<br />
Sari's origins are shrouded in mystery. She came into existence when a [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] [[protoform]] appeared in Isaac Sumdac's laboratory. The baffled scientist reached out to touch the small, liquid metal creature, and received an electric shock that knocked him unconscious. When he awoke, the protoform had scanned his [[DNA]] and reconfigured into a techno-organic creature that appeared to be a human baby. Sumdac "adopted" the robot child and named it "Sari", and raised it as his own daughter over the next eight years. Understandably, Sumdac was reluctant to let Sari out into the world, and instead kept her mostly confined to [[Sumdac Tower]], educating her with [[Tutor Bot|robot tutors]] and creating robotic companions like her pet Sparkplug to keep her company. {{storylink|TransWarped}} Precisely ''how'' the protoform that became Sari appeared in Sumdac's lab is unknown; Sari herself seems to believe that she was one of the protoforms stolen from the [[Cyber-Ninja Corps]] by [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] millions of years ago and stored aboard the ''[[Nemesis (Animated)|Nemesis]]'', but given that those protoforms were [[blank]]s, and that it was a different size and shape to all the other protoforms seen, this seems unlikely. {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}<br />
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[[Image:SariLayingDown1.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Yūki Ōshima]] is drooling as we speak.]]<br />
One day, when Sparkplug stole her security key card, Sari chased it outside and was confronted by the Autobots [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]], who hadn't quite yet fathomed what humans were, and spoke to her as if she were Sparkplug's pet. Naturally, she freaked out, but quickly befriended Bumblebee once he saved her from a giant bug that had grown from her father's nanite experiment gone awry. Stowing away on Bumblebee and coming aboard the [[Teletran-1|Autobots' ship]], she came across the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]], which infused part of its power into her security key, creating the [[AllSpark Key]]. This allowed her to heal [[Transformer]]s, such as the injured [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]], earning her brownie points with the 'Bots. She also managed to talk the police down from shooting the Autobots, saying they were friendly (except [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]], who was grumpy, but not evil). Sari later helped teach the Autobots about [[Earth]] and [[human]]s, explaining their method of reproduction to a ''very'' startled [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]].<br />
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[[Image:Sariprime.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Prime was never the same after this.]]<br />
During the unveiling of her father's new transit system, [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] arrived and attacked. Bumblebee took a shot meant for Sari, allowing Starscream to capture him, Professor Sumdac, the Mayor, and [[Captain Fanzone]]. Sari came up with the idea to distract Starscream while she and Prowl rescued the others (even faking some tears to make it happen). The Key later saved Optimus Prime's life when she used it, in concert with the AllSpark itself, to revive his [[Spark]]. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}<br />
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Sari would go on to be Bumblebee's usual partner in crime, encouraging him to engage in such questionable activities as high-profile wrestling matches {{storylink|Total Meltdown}} and installing rocket boosters to make him go faster. {{storylink|Nanosec (episode)|Nanosec}} Sari likely hangs out with Bumblebee because she knows she can scare the holy be[[Primus]] out of him. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider}}<br />
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[[Image:Saricostume.jpg|thumb|right|100px|Trivia: Transformers [[Generation 1 (franchise)|used to]] look like this.]]<br />
On Sari's eighth birthday, the only other kids who turned up were the children of her dad's employees. None of them really wanted to be there and soon focused their attention on the Autobots. Sari was left alone and shunned along with Bulkhead, both morose that the kids didn't like them. Her father's present, a music robot called [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]], cheered her up, and she soon began neglecting her friendship with Bulkhead in favour of her new toy. Repeated uses of the Key turned Soundwave into a malevolent, sentient being who tried to enslave Humanity, and she learnt she'd been wrong to ignore her friend. {{storylink|Sound and Fury}}<br />
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When the [[Decepticon]]s [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut (Animated)|Lugnut]] arrived on Earth, they manhandled the Autobots. Although they survived, it made apparent the fact that more would come looking for the AllSpark, so the Autobots decided to repair their ship and leave Earth. Sari's reaction to this was displeasure (in the form of a high pitch shout of NO!). However, they needed the Key to assist Ratchet in repairing the ship. Sari was unwilling to help them leave, and neither was she pleased to work with a grouch like Ratchet (who was not that keen on working with a [[Protoform]]), but they managed to get her to the ship. While alone with the AllSpark, Sari decided to try and sabotage the ship, thereby keeping the Autobots on Earth (and dooming her species to enslavement and/or extinction) but the Key repaired the damage. After that, the AllSpark showed her an image of [[Megatron (Animated)|a giant Transformer]]. In her panic, Sari opened the air lock, nearly drowning, but Ratchet saved her. Ratchet then explained that they were leaving because they couldn't risk anything happening to Earth or her. Swayed by his compassion, Sari used the Key to reactivate the Autobot ship's decommissioned weapons, reducing Blitzwing and Lugnut to pieces. {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}} <br />
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Eventually, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] decided that the Key was no longer safe in Sari's hands, and he ordered Ratchet to take it from her. Distraught, Sari ran off crying, only to be captured later by [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]], who was looking for the Key herself. Sari basically told her "too little, too late," and the two seemed to have a heart-to-heart about their gripes with the Autobots. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 1}}<br />
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[[Image:Megatron_Rising_Sari_chomp.JPG|thumb|left|175px|Isaac isn't the world's best dad, but he does know a good dentist.]]<br />
While Sari was actually misleading Blackarachnia in circles around the frozen [[Lake Erie]], she was grabbed by Ratchet as he brought the Autobots' ship out of the lake. She was ticked that Ratchet had lost the Key and that her dad had helped rebuild [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], but the blame game ceased after the ship crashed on [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]]. Prime told the Sumdacs to stay with the ship while they went to fight off Megatron. Fearing that they might die, Isaac Sumdac said that there was something that he needed to tell Sari, but she was more interested in finding something else the AllSpark could charge. The AllSpark refused to respond, other than cryptically displaying an image of a DNA strand. Suddenly, Megatron and Prime burst through the hull of the ship, and during their fight, the Key once again fell into her hands. Sari tossed it to Optimus Prime, who used the Key to partially destroy the AllSpark and disperse its energy. Acknowledging that he had been wrong in taking from her, Optimus Prime gave the Key back to Sari, saying that it was the strongest most powerful Cybertronian artifact in existence, it was too important to be left in the hands of an Autobot. <br />
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Unfortunately, all was not well, for Sari could not find her dad... as he was now a prisoner of Megatron. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}}<br />
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[[Image:Dramatic_change_in_plot.jpg|thumb|The tide has turned!]]<br />
After her father's disappearance, Sari took over running [[Sumdac Systems]]. Board chairman [[Porter C. Powell]] opposed her, saying that she was too young and wasting company resources searching for her father. When the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]] arrived, Sari was cut off from the Autobots and her only source of emotional support. She soon needed them, as police drones coming out of a Sumdac assembly line began to malfunction, and Powell was unwilling to do anything about it. Sneaking aboard the [[Steelhaven (Animated)|Elite Guard flagship]], Sari put the fear of god into [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] before Bulkhead explained that Sari was okay (and Bumblebee explained that [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] was a jerk). With Optimus, Prowl, and Jazz's help, Sari managed to get into the plant's assembly line and shut down the systems. When she returned home, she found that she had been locked out of her office, as Powell was now CEO and Chairman of Sumdac Systems. Insisting that it was still her company, Sari was shocked when Powell revealed that she had no birth certificate, no adoption papers, and no social security number. Powell's smug revelation made Sari realize that not only was there no proof that she was Sumdac's daughter, there was no legal proof she even existed. {{storylink|The Elite Guard}}<br />
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After that, Powell kicked Sari out of Sumdac Tower, took Tutor Bot and Sparkplug, and gave her room to [[Headmaster (Animated)|Henry Masterson]] as an office. With nowhere else to go, she went to Autobot headquarters. Bumblebee and Bulkhead tried their best to cheer her up, employing such methods as loud music, inedible food, and unedifying teaching lesson. All they did was make things worse. Eventually, Prowl put the two bots in their place and told them to ''listen'' to her. Sari opened up about all her frustrations, such as her missing father, being kicked out of her home, her fear of Powell ruining her father's company, and the fact that there was no record of her existence. Bumblebee promised that they were there for her, no matter what, and Sari finally started to feel a little better. {{storylink|The Return of the Headmaster}}<br />
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[[Image:MissionAccomplished-Fanzoneindressinggown.jpg|thumb|left|Peekaboo!]]<br />
And then [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] decided that the Autobots couldn't be there for her, as the Decepticons had begun attacking the fringes of Autobot space, so Prime's crew were needed elsewhere. The Autobots decided that Captain Fanzone was the best human with whom to leave her. (Granted, their list of known humans was rather short and included [[Meltdown (Animated)|Prometheus Black]] and [[Nanosec]].) Before anything close to adoption could occur, they managed to convince Magnus that there were Decepticons on Earth (mostly because Starscream fell out of the sky and landed about ten feet in front of them), allowing them to stay on planet. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished}}<br />
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Sari amused herself after settling in with the Autobots by hooking up illegal satellite TV, which she used to watch pay-per-view races. (The races were also illegal, as the Autobots found out from Fanzone.) When Bumblebee wanted to join the races to compete against a mysterious blue car, Sari came along with him. Sari discovered that man in charge of the races, [[Master Disaster]], had a remote control containing an AllSpark fragment, which he used to control the blue car. Blitzwing showed up to take the fragment, so and Bumblebee had to run for their lives. Eventually, she used the remote to get rid of Blitzwing, allowing the Autobots to get the AllSpark fragment. After that, Bumblebee severed her satellite connection, saying that he had to set a better example for her. Sari advised him not to try too hard, or she wouldn't recognize him. {{storylink|Velocity}}<br />
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[[Image:Rise_Constructicons_Sari_no_pigtails.jpg|thumb|Don't mess the 'do.]]<br />
Sari was awakened from her night's rest by the loud cavorting of the [[Constructicon (Animated)|"Constructobots"]]. A game of flattened-oil-barrel frisbee severed her trademark pigtails, which left her none too pleased. {{storylink|Rise of the Constructicons}} Subsequently she proved that she was still more mature than Bumblebee in a number of ways, warning him off of taking on villains solo just to prove a point. Sadly he wouldn't realize this until the Decepticon behind the villains' success, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] was revealed. By then it was too late, and she had to team up with those same villains to take his immobilized chassis to Sumdac Tower. Alarmed that the receptionist robot was now declaring it to be Powell Tower, she utilized the Key to rectify that little situation before heading off and successfully disabling Swindle's technology jamming device. {{storylink|SUV: Society of Ultimate Villainy}}<br />
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A while after, Prowl and Sari were honing their agility using the factory's old assembly line. Sari claimed she could complete the exercise at full speed, like Prowl, but it was set to a quarter-speed, which proved to be too much for her at that and got a massive whack upside the head for her pains. After the Autobots discovered the return of the [[Constructicon (Animated)|Constructicons]], Sari was left at the base at the command of Optimus, who told reminded her that they had almost decapitated her [[Rise of the Constructicons|the last time they met]]. Also, he doubted she would be able to take on a pair of two-story robots. At first Sari sulked at her situation, before realizing that she was completely alone in the base and did what any eight-year-old kid would do in an abandoned factory: raid the vending machines, use cranes as miniature G-force slings and try to take on Prowl's obstacle course at full speed (which went as well as last time). <br />
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[[Image:SariNoOne%27sHome-Mixmaster%2CScrapperandSari.jpg|thumb|left|200px|They're here to kick aft and drink oil. And they're all out of oil.]]<br />
While listening to her music, Sari failed to notice the alarms going off, which heralded the invasion of the Constructicons who were looking for [[Oil|a drink]]. After the two louts accidentally crushed her cell phone and left her with the option of sneaking to the communications room to call the Autobots for help, Sari decided—after a council of war with her teddy bear—to take on the two bots using her trusty hockey stick (which shatters soon after she strikes them with it). She escaped and made it to the communication room, contacting Bumblebee who told her to hide and wait until they finish fighting off the recently appeared [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]], who was also looking for the Constructicons. Sari concluded that it would be too long and set up a trap for the two invaders, using three barrels of oil to trip them up and the plant's assembly line to knock them around for a while, forcing [[Mixmaster (Animated)|Mixmaster]] and [[Scrapper (Animated)|Scrapper]] to flee. The Autobots returned to find the place in ruins, but Sari showed them that she was all right. Optimus both apologized for his previous comments and lauded her for her bravery, and all was well for Sari—if she could just explain away the mountain of candy wrappers Optimus discovered.... {{storylink|Sari, No One's Home}}<br />
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Sari later posed for a Picasso-style picture done by Bulkhead. The results were...interesting, to say the least. After criticism by the Autobots, a depressed Bulkhead walked out, and Sari and Bumblebee went to cheer him up. During a walk in the park, Megatron attacked them, carrying an imprisoned Isaac Sumdac with him, and Sari realized that Megatron had kidnapped him all those months ago. (Apparently, that hadn't occurred to anyone else.) While she looked on helplessly, Megatron managed to kidnap Bulkhead. When she returned to the plant, she heard the Autobot [[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]] reveal that Professor Sumdac was helping the Decepticons build a [[space bridge]] to conquer Cybertron. Sari refused to believe that her father was willingly helping the Decepticons and got a promise out of Optimus Prime to bring him home alive. Heading to Dinobot Island, Ratchet and Sari worked to bring the Autobots' ship back online. Ratchet realized that they would need riskier repairs to bring achieve their goal. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}<br />
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[[Image:TFA_ABTC_Sari_spoilers.jpg|thumb|150px|It's a strange thing when the human companion's story arc is more interesting than the robots.]]<br />
As Ratchet worked, he explained that the ship was an Autobot who had sacrificed his spark two million years ago. Sari was doubtful that it would come back online... until it spoke to her. She proceeded to use the Key on several of the ship's systems, under Ratchet's direction, until it was able to take off. Taking it to the mine where the Decepticons were based, Sari managed to give the ship enough power to transform into its robot mode, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]]. The massive Autobot turned the tide of the battle, but sacrificed himself to save the others from being sucked into the space bridge. The Autobots managed to escape, with both Sari and Isaac in tow, and Isaac revealed that he had been forced to work with the Decepticons. Overjoyed that her father was safe and still a good guy, Sari dubbed Isaac Sumdac the most honest and trust-worthy guy that anyone could hope to find. It was at that point that everyone assembled noticed that the skin on Sari's elbow had torn away, revealing robotic circuitry underneath. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}<br />
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Although Sari was at first scared by this strange discovery, her fear quickly gave way to anger at her father for having kept the secret that she was a robot from her for years. As they returned to Detroit, Sumdac explained how he had found Sari in his lab years before, but the girl remained incredulous, and things only got worse when the pair confronted Porter C. Powell and Henry Masterson back in Sumdac Tower. When the two men refused to vacate the building, Sari's strained patience snapped, and her hands suddenly transformed into energy projectors, which created a shock wave that knocked the pair of do-badders into the elevator. Struggling to comprehend her true nature, Sari went with the Autobots to their headquarters, unable even to be in the same building as the man she could no longer even think of as her father. Optimus Prime did his best to patch up the damaged family relationship by tricking Sari into meeting with Sumdac at [[Burger Bot]], but it wasn't until Masterson returned with his Headmaster unit attached to Starscream's body that the bonds between father and daughter were repaired, as Sari and Sumdac defended each other from the villain.<br />
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[[Image:TransWarpedSariFocus.jpg|thumb|left|Okay Sari, focus. Let go of old thinking, focus on the transformation within. The key is finding the balance in yourself. Then, and only then, can you truly say...]]<br />
Sari quickly began to get a handle on her new Cybertronian powers and abilities, learning to channel and project beach ball-sized spheres of pure white, lightning-like energy from her hands, but the Autobots still refused to allow her to accompany them into battle against a rock-like alien creature that had just [[transwarp]]ed into the middle of Detroit. Seeking a means to strengthen and increase her powers and abilities, Sari turned her Key upon herself and underwent a surprising metamorphosis: In exchange for several years of her life - she now appeared to be a teenager - she sprouted powerful battle armor equipped with jet-skates, arm blades and an energy sledgehammer.<br />
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[[Image:TransWarpedSariUpgrade.jpg|thumb|150x200px|"...I am transformed!"]]<br />
Although Sari's new powers and abilities amazed the Autobots when she made short work of the rock-alien, things soon started to go wrong, as the Key's energy began overloading Sari's circuitry, causing her to run out of control. Unable to control her own body and causing objects around her to explode with her merest touch, Sari nearly killed Bumblebee by stabbing him with one of her blades before the Autobots were able to remove the key from her system. Even with the Key extracted, Sari's energies were still running wild, and she was in danger of exploding and destroying the entire city before Ratchet knocked her out with his EMP generator. Once they returned to the Autobot base, he bypassed the circuitry responsible for her overload.<br />
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[[Image:TransWarpedBumblebeeSari.jpg|thumb|left|''You've been hit by/ You've been struck by/ A smooth criminal'']]<br />
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As Sari convalesced, her father at her side, Megatron returned to Earth in control of Omega Supreme. Optimus Prime was forced to contemplate undoing the repairs done to Sari and using her to stop the rampaging superweapon as a last-ditch desperation play. When Starscream took control of Omega away from Megatron and locked down all the entrance hatches to prevent the Autobots from infiltrating the robot (again), he came to the point of ordering Ratchet to do so. Fortunately for Sari's (and Detroit's) continued existence, Ratchet refused, and the Autobots ultimately transwarped the threat off Earth. Soon after, Sari awoke and apologized to her friends for her foolishness, while her father apologized to her for holding back the truth for so long. {{storylink|TransWarped}}<br />
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After convalescing, she was next seen on [[Christmas]] Eve, making some [[oilnog]] for the Autobots and warning them to stay off Santa's naughty list. When they went to bed early, thanks to a [[Sound Wave]] toy spiking the 'nog, she called them a bunch of party-poopers, but wished them a Merry Christmas and went home.<br />
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The next morning, she wasn't happy to receive another Sound Wave toy from her father, given [[Sound and Fury|what had happened with the last one]], and was further disappointed when she was given a motor scooter rather than a car... until she found out that it transformed into a jet pack. Overjoyed, she transformed to her robot mode and flew off to show Bumblebee. When she arrived at the Autobots' base, she found it apparently deserted, and was further puzzled when the base's scanners showed their energy signatures in the factory itself. The appearance of a [[Laserbeak (Animated)|creepy robot bird]], leading a number of Sound Wave toys from an elevator in the floor (which she'd not known about before), didn't help matters, so she used her palm blasters on them and took the lift down.<br />
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In the basement, she found the Autobots wired into a VR machine by a fully rebuilt Soundwave. With most of her weaponry offline, she was no match for him and his instruments when she tried to stop him. She was forced to retreat, promising to come back for her friends.... {{storylink|Human Error, Part I}}<br />
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While she was flying back to Sumdac Tower, Soundwave decided to take over the whole city of Detroit, using the small Sound Waves to carry his hypnotic tunes, since reprogramming the Autobots was taking too long. As such, she arrived back to find a Sound Wave toy blaring hypnotic music at her... and kicked it out of the way. Soundwave deduced that her techno-organic nature made her immune to the music, and he shifted focus to trying to force everyone ''else'' to kill her, starting with her father!<br />
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After reluctantly dropping a shelving unit on her dad to make her escape, she flew to Dinobot Island for help. Her initial foray met with little success, since [[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock]] and [[Swoop (Animated)|his pteranadon comrade]] refused to help, tried to kill her, then left her alone when she blasted at them. Grimlock's mention that the third member of his group had been kicked out for becoming someone's "pet" raised her curiosity, though, and she soon found Scrapper, separated from the other two Constructicons by [[Three's a Crowd|a big explosion]], on the island's shore playing with "[[Snarl (Animated)|Snarl]]", and she managed to conscript the two into rescuing the other Autobots.<br />
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On their way back to the mainland on a makeshift raft, [[Wreck-Gar (Animated)|Wreck-Gar]] abruptly popped up from the lake's bottom and immediately became the fourth member of the troupe of [[Substitute Autobot|Substitute Autobots]]. Once they were ashore, Sari's chaotic attempt to get them to transform and roll out nearly had them leave her behind, but it became moot before too long when Soundwave flew out of the ground, followed by the brainwashed Autobots. Initial attempts by her group at fighting them went badly, as the Substitute Autobots proved incapable of working at a team, while the zombie-Autobots acted as a single, elegant machine under Soundwave, and Soundwave could even control her own jet pack. Sari then changed tack, abandoning efforts to co-ordinate her group and ordering them to attack as individuals. Soundwave's single, elegant machine had trouble multitasking, apparently leading to Prowl saving Sari from death at Bumblebee's stingers in an attempt to deliver his own blow.<br />
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This lasted until, with four Autobots down, only Optimus Prime remained... whereupon Soundwave could concentrate on controlling just one Autobot properly. As a result, Sari was almost killed by the enslaved Optimus—but was saved again by Prowl, who openly revealed that he'd broken Soundwave's control in knocking Ratbat away from him. Shortly after, Soundwave was again shattered into many pieces, and Sari could once again concentrate on celebrating Christmas with her adopted family and her father. {{storylink|Human Error, Part II}}<br />
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[[Image:TFA-DecepticonAir-SariHands.jpg|thumb|Ghost in the Shell? Don't you mean [[Ghost in the Machine]]?]]<br />
When Bulkhead and her father belatedly completed the space bridge they'd been working on (after the purpose they'd been making it for had been accomplished), Sari objected that they would have gotten it working sooner if they'd let her help. They scoffed and went back to bickering about the final tweaks... so Sari took it upon herself to head over to the console, where her eyes glowed white, her hands separated into wires, and she finished the setup in seconds. When Optimus asked just ''how'' she'd managed that, she replied that she didn't know how, she just... had. Further, when Sentinel Prime sent an encoded message to Optimus that things had gone horribly wrong on the Elite Guard's ship, Sari managed to lock onto the transwarp signature of Swindle's personal storage dimension to get Optimus aboard, after Bulkhead wasn't sure it was even possible.<br />
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[[Image:TFA-DecepticonAir-SariKnowsStuff.jpg|thumb|left|"I'm Sari Sumdac. I know stuff."]]<br />
Later, after Swindle had departed the ship and Bulkhead wasn't sure he could retrieve Optimus, she claimed she could fix it and that she'd figured out why, guessing she must have upgraded her "processor... or brain or whatever" as part of her wider upgrade. However, putting it to the test wasn't necessary, as the ship dropped off Optimus at Sumdac Tower, safe and sound. {{storylink|Decepticon Air}}<br />
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When Optimus Prime abruptly decided he needed a jetpack of his own, Sari, along with Ratchet and her dad, was called into service to make it happen, which included Sari diagnosing a problem just by touching it. {{storylink|Endgame, Part I}} The flight pack soon got its baptism of fire when Megatron unleashed a trio of [[Lugnut Supreme]]s on Detroit. Initially, Sari wanted to confront the giant Decepticons with Optimus and Prowl, but Optimus told her no. As she began to throw a hissy-fit about being kept back for her own safety again, he cut her off and told her he wanted her to help protect her "fellow organics" with the other Autobots. Embarrassed, she backed down.<br />
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Later, when Ratchet, Bumblebee and Bulkhead were about to depart for the Moon in an attempt to take back the original Omega Supreme, she insisted on transwarping there with them. Her worried father attempted to forbid her, but she told him that she knew there was something there she needed to do, and flew into the space bridge. Once there, Sari could hardly believe she was really on the Moon, but her amazement was soon tabled when Ratchet spotted Arcee, leading to the quartet being ambushed by [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]]. While Bumblebee and Bulkhead held the shape-shifting Decepticon off, Sari and Ratchet headed into Omega Supreme's inactive body with the damaged fembot and found the lab Shockwave had been using. Although slightly freaked out by the female robot's mindless repetition of lessons for young Cybertronian 'bots, Sari was able to use her technopathy to tell Ratchet how to restore her mind. Shortly after Arcee came fully back online, Bumblebee and Bulkhead came in with news for Sari. They took her down into the hold of the [[Nemesis (Animated)|Decepticons' ship]], where several blank protoforms lay. Believing that this was where she had come from, Sari reached out to touch one of the protoforms, confirming for herself that there really had been a reason for her to be there.<br />
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Meanwhile, Ratchet and Arcee had broken Lugnut's hold over Omega Supreme and reactivated the giant Autobot, and Sari joined the others in flying back to Earth aboard the ship. As he fought with his purple duplicates, those inside were shaken about. After a particularly hard hit from the last clone standing, which forced Omega to transform to ship mode and crash-land, he checked that those inside were all right, whereupon Sari noted that "all Autobots, half-bots and almost-bots" were present and accounted for. Shortly afterward, Prowl gave his spark to shield the city from the last Omega-clone's detonation, and Megatron was defeated and arrested. Sari accompanied the Autobots back to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] to share in their triumphant return and learn of her true origins. {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}<br />
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===''Be the Hero'' books===<br />
{{Note|As the following stories are [[multipath adventure]]s, details will vary depending on the path taken. See individual pages for information on alternate paths.}}<br />
====''Prime Suspect''====<br />
When Optimus Prime was framed for a break-in at [[HomeTech]], Sari had the idea to break into the police station to look for clues. Teamed up with [[You|another kid]], she was almost caught, but the Autobots rescued them at the last moment. The pair then entered HomeTech's laboratory to look for the security tape on which Prime's image had been captured, and they found a vital clue which led them to HomeTech's main warehouse. There Sari was interested in the [[Pixie-6]] robots HomeTech was due to release, but was menaced by Blitzwing, the real perpetrator of the break-in. She was able to utilize her key to zap Blitzwing via the controller he was using on the Pixie-6 'bots. {{storylink|Prime Suspect}}<br />
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====''Quest for the AllSpark''====<br />
Distraught after the Autobots went missing without telling her, Sari visited their base on the urging of another kid she'd just met. After being attacked by a rogue cleaning 'bot, she found Bumblebee, who revealed that Megatron had taken control of Detroit's fleet of robot workers and the Autobots had come up with a plan to keep the AllSpark safe, but the rest of the Autobots hadn't reported back. Sari and her new friend helped Bumblebee track down the others and defeat [[Crush-A]], a clearance 'bot Megatron was using to try to obtain the AllSpark. {{storylink|Quest for the AllSpark}}<br />
<br />
====''Web of Deception''====<br />
Sari was testing one of her father's inventions, the [[Sumdac Aquaskimmer Mk 1]], on Lake Erie with a young friend when they were attacked by a [[Sparkseeker]] torpedo. After a quick rescue by the Autobots, the group found the Autobot ship offline and Optimus Prime missing. Ratchet's scans revealed the involvement of Lockdown, and Sari and her friend accompanied Bumblebee, Prowl and Bulkhead in an attempt to rescue their leader. After tangling with Lockdown, the two humans caught up with Blackarachnia, who'd hired the bounty hunter in order to get her revenge on Optimus. Sari used her key to shock the Decepticon before she could complete her plan. {{storylink|Web of Deception}}<br />
<br />
===Titan Magazines===<br />
[[Image:Bumblebeepizza_Titan25.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Why said pizza didn't fly out of the box is another story.]]<br />
<br />
When Starscream and [[Starscream clone (Animated)|his clones]] seized the Autobot base, Sari immediately fled to Dinobot Island to get help. She found out the Dinobots were being made grouchy by the constant rain, so she promised they could stay in the Autobot base until it stopped if they drove out the Decepticons. That made Sari Grimlock's friend and left the Autobots crying when they saw the weather forecast. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 17|Dino-MIGHT!}}<br />
<br />
Being present for [[Quake-Maker|Quake-Maker's]] first attack on Detroit, she got to see the arrival of shiny new hero [[Afterburn]]. She was smitten at first sight. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 1|Burnout}} She even got to hang with him on a mission to Dinobot Island! As well as be stunned by his ace moves, she used her Key to heal a wounded Grimlock and suffered emotional abuse when Ratchet faked his death to test Afterburn. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 2|Ratchet & Grimlock Are DEAD?}}<br />
<br />
Later, while watching a basketball game, Sari had to help stop an attack on the city by the villainous [[Crossroads]]. She'd met the supervillain when he'd worked at [[Sumdac Systems]] but his awesome disguise of a blue strip of cloth on his head threw her for a few minutes. Once she'd worked it out, she was able to inform the Autobots he was heading for [[Sumdac Tower]] and helped see to his defeat. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 3|Crossroads!}}<br />
<br />
Sari hit on a solution to Bumblebee and Prowl's macho posturing, setting up a race between the two in [[Crazy Coyote Canyon]] to determine who was the fastest. And she drew [[:Image:CoyoteCanyonmap.jpg|an adorable little map]] of the race track. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|The Race}}<br />
<br />
===''The Cool'' comic===<br />
<br />
[[image:PrimeSaritheCoolHuggies01.jpg|left|thumb|150px|Hug Players]]<br />
<br />
While roaming aimlessly around the middle of the street, Sari was nearly run over by a fleet of vehicles. To her astonishment, they transformed into robots. Terrified, she asked who they were, and [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] introduced them as the heroic [[Autobot]]s. Suddenly, [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]], [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] and [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]] attacked, attempting to steal the [[AllSpark#Animated|AllSpark]]. Prime scooped Sari up, protecting her from a violent explosion as the Autobots and the [[Decepticon]]s clashed. {{storylink|The Cool Episode 1}}<br />
<br />
Starscream eventually succeeded in stealing the AllSpark from [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] and nearly made off with it. Prime, however, stopped him by releasing all the energy within it. Prime plummeted to the ground and died, but was instantly revived by Sari's [[AllSpark Key|key]]. Sari and Prime then properly introduced themselves as Sari wept and gave Prime a big, snuggly hug. Unbeknownst to Sari, though, she was being observed via closed circuit TV by the disembodied head of [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], who was very interested in the power of her key. {{storylink|The Cool Episode 2}}<br />
<br />
[[Image:TheCoolSariRatchetIssue08.jpg|thumb|200px|right|]]<br />
<br />
A good deal of time later, as the Autobots fought to keep the [[space bridge#Animated cartoon|Space Bridge]] out of Decepticon hands, Sari joined [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] in piloting the ''[[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Orion]]'' into battle, desperate that their allies could hold out until their arrival. {{storylink|The Cool Episode 7}}<br />
<br />
They arrived just in time and transformed the ''Orion'' into [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]]. They trounced the competition and won the day. After being reunited with her father, Sari suggested they all go home. However, her joy was short-lived, as Bumblebee pointed out to her that she had some robotics sticking out through her flesh. Sari turned to her father, who admitted he had a very important story to tell her.{{storylink|The Cool Episode 8}}<br />
<br />
[[Image:SariTheCoolSailorScout01.jpg|left|thumb|100px|"In the name of Detroit, I will punish you!"]]<br />
<br />
After a full body-scan at Autobot HQ, and a heart-to-heart with her dad, Sari learned that she was originally a Transformer [[protoform]] that had scanned DNA from Professor Sumdac, resulting in an entirely new lifeform. Sumdac begged for her forgiveness and Sari was quick to give him a big hug, assuring him that no matter what, he'll always be her dad. Then, suddenly, [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] attacked in Omega Supreme's body! Sari decided that now was the time to join the fray with her friends and, using her key, upgraded herself into a teenager! Firing an energy-ball from her hands at the Decepticon, she then proceeded to use her newfound powers to flee in mortal terror as Starscream fired missiles at her, completely unaffected by her attack. {{storylink|The Cool Episode 9}}<br />
<br />
At an unknown point after that, a gleeful Sari joined the Autobots in defending Detroit from an invasion of [[Lugnut Supreme]]s. {{storylink|The Cool Extra issue 1}}<br />
<br />
Upon Megatron's defeat, Sari accompanied the Autobots back to planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], where they were all hailed as heroes by the citizenry and even [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel]]. {{storylink|The Cool Episode Final}}<br />
<br />
===''Transformers Generations 2011''===<br />
<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Something's going down.]]<br />
Sari appeared along with Optimus Prime, [[Motormaster (Animated)|Motormaster]], and most notably her [[Shattered Glass]] [[Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)|counterpart]] in a special illustration [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] created for Volume 1. {{storylink|Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1}}<br />
<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
==Games==<br />
===Transformers Animated: The Game===<br />
:''Voice actor:'' [[Tara Strong]] (English)<br />
[[Image:TFAnimated Game Sari.jpg|thumb|right|96px]]<br />
Sari was at the Autobot base when they decided to do some training, and offered up the services of [[AllSpark Key|her key]] to repair them if need be. She got a call from a [[Sumdac Systems]] factory, alerting them to the fact that the robots there had started going haywire, and accompanied [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]], [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] to the plant to help them quell the robot resistance. She kept them updated on the drone problems, including when a bunch of them escaped, and let them know there were AllSpark fragments at the factory when they were in need of some to power up Megatron's Space Bridge.<br />
<br />
After Bumblebee was accidentally left behind when Optimus and Bulkhead transwarped to Cybertron, she pointed him to some more AllSpark fragments. His fragments were stolen by [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]], so he and Sari had to hunt the bounty hunter down so he could get them back. Once they'd done so, they went to the Decepticon mine lair, and Bumblebee fought his way to the Space Bridge terminal. Though Sari was keen to see Cybertron, Bumblebee was responsible enough not to let her go, and she had to ride back to base on Prowl, an event sadly not visually recorded. After Optimus's team returned victorious from Cybertron, Sari enticed Bumblebee into some gaming by revealing she had a prerelease copy of ''[[Mage Master Maze Knight]]''. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The Game}}<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:TFA_Sari_Sumdac_prelim_promo.JPG|thumb|left|120px|NOT show accurate.]]<br />
[[Image:Sari_tbob_trike.jpg|thumb|right|I d-d-don't think th-this is s-such a g-g-good idea, Scott!]]<br />
* A promotional image of Sari from the [[Cartoon Network]] ''Transformers Animated'' press kit showed her with different shoes, a different Key design, and a slightly darker skin tone.<br />
<br />
* In a preliminary version of the [[title sequence]], Sari appeared riding on a tricycle which she used the AllSpark Key to transform into a jet pack. The footage was dropped from the finished credits, but was screened at conventions and was later included on the DVD packaged with the Optimus Prime and Megatron "The Battle Begins" action figure two-pack. The concept was later recycled as a Christmas present from her father in "[[Human Error, Part I]]"; instead of a tricycle, she has an orange scooter which transforms into a jet pack compatible with her robotic body. She may have been gone for four episodes, but now she can fly!<br />
<br />
* Sari's pigtails do ''not'' grow back overnight... or do they?<br />
<br />
* Sari has a transformation noise shared only with her scooter/jetpack, likely because of her rather unique origin.<br />
<br />
* Sari did not appear for four episodes in season 3—between "[[Three's a Crowd]]" and "[[Predacons Rising]]"—after her almost-disastrous upgrade, the longest time she has been absent in the series so far. Well, considering the shift in focus... not to mention [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]]'s presence on Earth for three of those episodes, perhaps it's just as well. He'd probably have totally freaked out as soon as he saw her.<br />
<br />
* Ever since her "[[TransWarped]]" upgrade, she has what appear to be [[articulation]] lines on her sleeves and stockings/socks.<br />
<br />
* Sari's hands can transform into several different modes, two of which pay homage to the anime ''Ghost in the Shell'' and ''[[Iron Man]]''. <br />
<br />
* From "[[TransWarped]]" onward, her eyes are an inverted version of Autobot eyes, with the lighter shade of cyan as the "whites" and the darker shade as the "iris".<br />
<br />
* Despite the controversial [[AllSpark Key]] being written out of the series, it can be argued that in the third season, Sari was slowly turning into a ''deus ex machina'' just like it in her own right, merely by virtue of [[Decepticon Air|"knowing stuff" crucial to the storyline]] (often ''without'' a proper explanation), as well as being able to diagnose mechanical problems [[Endgame, Part I|merely by touching a given machine]].<br />
<br />
* Sari's Cybertronian nature was planned from the very beginning.<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-news-rumors/236269-botcon-2009-animating-animated-panel-coverage.html BotCon 2009]</ref><br />
<br />
* Sari is one of two Transformers with a [[Alice|human alt-mode]] and is one of three techno-organic Transformers in the ''Animated'' continuity, the other two being [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]] and [[Wasp|Waspinator]].<br />
<br />
* In "TransWarped", Sari showed off her skills with twin white energy blades that came from her forearms and an energy hammer. After being knocked out by Ratchet's EMP, those weapons vanished for the rest of the series, leaving her with only her energy sphere-throwing attack.<br />
<br />
* According to ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]]'', Sari's post-upgrade weapons and tools include Master Blades (a reference to [[Grand Maximus]]'s [[Master Blade (Masterforce)|weapon]] in ''[[Super-God Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce]]''), a Hyperspace Hammer, Azusa Skates (a reference to the ''[[Timelines (fiction)|Timelines]]'' [[Azusa|starship]]), and a [[Skyboom (Animated)|Skyboom Shield]] (which, like [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel]]'s, is a reference to the ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' [[Skyboom (Armada)|macguffin]]). She also uses [[Micron Booster]]s to make powered jumps.<br />
<br />
===Foreign names===<br />
*''Japanese:'' '''Sari Sumdac''' (サリ・サムダック ''Sari Samudakku'')<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592736Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T18:58:27Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
<br />
You know that nice, sweet girl, [[Sari Sumdac]]? Yeah, this isn't that Sari. This Sari collects eyes. Years of torture can do that to a girl. She hails from an alternate continuity from the normal Animated universe, where everything is flipped, turned upside down. Autobots are evil. Decepticons are good. [[Porter C. Powell]] is a nice guy. [[Shattered Glass|You know the deal.]]<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Issac Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobot]]s. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|Shattered Glass Sari, I choose you, [[Motormaster (Animated)|OHHHH YEEAH!]] ]]<br />
* Shattered Glass Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog,<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref> and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in ''[[Transformers Generations 2011]]'' Vol. 1.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari (SG Animated)}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592728Talk:Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T18:28:56Z<p>Devastator: /* Fanon to Canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>== She ain't Japanese ==<br />
She may have first shown up in the Generations book, but that wasn't what she was created for. If you go by the logic saying she is a Japanese original, then so is Animated Motormaster.<br />
So stop saying she is. [[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 00:43, 4 June 2011 (EDT)<br />
: It's not exactly 100% applicable. Motormaster had already been revealed on the Botcon web page by this time; as such, he was already confirmed as a Botcon character. However, Sari's presence on something drawn by Derrick Wyatt with a Botcon character he also designed may well indicate she was planned for inclusion in the Botcon litho at that time. And her actual name and fiction weren't definitively established until the bio in the Botcon lithograph, for that matter. [[User:General Tekno|General Tekno]] 00:48, 4 June 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Oh, hey! The Generations book isn't even out yet. Oops. I was going by the text in the article where it said she was created for the Generations book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:53, 4 June 2011 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Fanon to Canon ==<br />
<br />
Mayhap we should make a note that this is almost entirely Wyatt canonizing the fanon that grew up on Formspring around the character?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:15, 4 June 2011 (EDT)<br />
:It's not, by any stretch of the imagination. Much of the Formspring silliness might have been influenced by him, but he wasn't canonizing fanon. This has been his vision for the character for some time. --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 14:28, 4 June 2011 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592723Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T18:15:17Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
<br />
You know that nice, sweet girl, [[Sari Sumdac]]? Yeah, this isn't that Sari. This Sari collects eyes. Years of torture can do that to a girl. She hails from an alternate continuity from the normal Animated universe, where everything is flipped, turned upside down. Autobots are evil. Decepticons are good. [[Porter C. Powell]] is a nice guy. [[Shattered Glass|You know the deal.]]<br />
<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' [[BotCon 2011]] Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse [[Isaac Sumdac (SG Animated)|Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobot]]s. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|SG Sari, I choose you, [[Motormaster (Animated)|YEEAH!]] ]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref>, and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in [[Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1]].<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592698Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T15:03:52Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' [[BotCon 2011]] Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse [[Isaac Sumdac|Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobots]]. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|SG Sari, I choose you!]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in two posts on [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]'s blog<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2010/10/many-moods-of-sari-sumdac.html</ref><ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2011/04/transformers-generations-2011-vol-1.html</ref>, and first officially shown in a special illustration Wyatt created for inclusion in [[Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1]].<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592626Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T04:39:05Z<p>Devastator: The publishing of her in the all-American BotCon attendee lithographs alone makes her NOT a Japanese Only character.</p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool Sari.]]<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse [[Isaac Sumdac|Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobots]]. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|SG Sari, I choose you!]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in a special illustration [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] created for inclusion in [[Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1]].<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592622Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T04:29:10Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|A gothic loli. She's Japan's wet dream.]]<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse [[Isaac Sumdac|Sumdac]] discovered and touched her [[protoform]] in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of [[AllSpark]] fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the [[Autobots]]. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|SG Sari, I choose you!]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in a special illustration [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] created for inclusion in Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592618Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T04:25:14Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool one.]]<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse Sumdac discovered and touched her protoform in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of allspark fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the Autobots. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|SG Sari, I choose you!]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in a special illustration [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] created for inclusion in Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1.<br />
* Belonging to two entirely different, and previously unlinked franchises, Sari presents a... bit of a classification problem.<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Japanese-original characters]]<br />
[[Category:Shattered Glass Autobots]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Sari_Sumdac_(SG_Animated)&diff=592614Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)2011-06-04T04:14:16Z<p>Devastator: New page: {{factions|sgAutobot}} :''Sari Sumdac is a technorganic humanoid from the "Shattered Glass" Animated [[continuity ...</p>
<hr />
<div>{{factions|sgAutobot}}<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the "[[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''<br />
<br />
[[Image:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG|thumb|150px|She's the cool one.]]<br />
==Fiction==<br />
===''Animated'' BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs===<br />
When mirrorverse Sumdac discovered and touched her protoform in his lab, she absorbed his DNA and attacked him, tearing out his eye. Her violent nature impressed him, and from then on, he raised her in a cage, subjecting her to constant painful experiments and upgrades. After testing the results of allspark fragment implantation, her true power was revealed. Now armed with a battle mode, she serves as a slave alongside the Autobots. While she enjoys the destruction and power, she's more of a prankster than truly evil. She hates her father with every fiber of her being, and dreams of the day when she will be free to finish what she started all those years ago.<ref>BotCon 2011 Attendee Lithographs</ref><br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg|thumb|150px|Why fight when you can sic your pets at each other?]]<br />
* SG Sari was first revealed in a special illustration [[Derrick J. Wyatt]] created for inclusion in Transformers Generations 2011 Vol. 1.<br />
<br />
===Foreign names===<br />
*''Japanese:'' '''Sari Sumdac''' (サリ・サムダック ''Sari Samudakku'')<br />
<br />
==References==<br />
{{reflist}}<br />
<br />
{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}<br />
[[Category:Animated Autobots]]<br />
[[Category:Animated humans]]<br />
[[Category:Female Transformers]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only characters]]<br />
[[Category:Fiction-only Transformers]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=File:Generations_2011_animated_illustration.jpg&diff=592613File:Generations 2011 animated illustration.jpg2011-06-04T04:11:27Z<p>Devastator: Scan.</p>
<hr />
<div>Scan.</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=File:SG_Sari_character_model.JPG&diff=592539File:SG Sari character model.JPG2011-06-04T00:51:20Z<p>Devastator: The finalized character model of Sari Sumdac (SG Animated) from Transformers Animated as seen in the BotCon 2011 Lithographs.
{{hastak}}
Copyright Hasbro, Cartoon Network
Category:Animated images
Category: Images by Derrick J. Wyatt</p>
<hr />
<div>The finalized character model of [[Sari Sumdac (SG Animated)]] from [[Transformers Animated]] as seen in the BotCon 2011 Lithographs. <br />
<br />
{{hastak}}<br />
<br />
Copyright Hasbro, Cartoon Network<br />
[[Category:Animated images]]<br />
[[Category: Images by Derrick J. Wyatt]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:TFWiki.net_2011_Transformers_Hall_of_Fame_Auditions/Entries&diff=572668MediaWiki:TFWiki.net 2011 Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions/Entries2011-04-06T15:48:12Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>This is the page for the '''TFWiki.net Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions''' entries. The rules are as follows:<br />
<br />
#You must pick your top five ''Transformers'' characters, from any era. They must actually '''be''' Transformers; sorry, but no humans, non-Transformer aliens, non-Transformer robots, or anything else of the sort are being considered for the Hall of Fame. Any votes for such entities will '''not''' be tabulated. It is the sole discretion of the contest organizers to decide what does and does not count.<br />
#Take your top five list and '''put it in alphabetical order'''. Order of preference does not matter. Feel free to denote the character's franchise of origin, although these distinctions may not figure into the final results. <br />
#You '''cannot''' pick a specific version of Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream, Dinobot, Ironhide, Ratchet, or Soundwave. They've already been inducted or soon will be!<br />
#Only one entry per user.<br />
<br />
<br />
Please put your characters of choice and user name below in the following manner:<br />
<br />
<br />
*Bulkhead, Emirate Xaaron, Side Swipe, Waspinator, X-Brawn --(four tildes)<br />
<br />
<br />
Poll entry period ends '''[[April 6]], 2011'''. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:44, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Poll entries==<br />
<br />
<!-- Please put new nominations at the bottom! --><br />
<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Shot, Ravage, Shokaract, Waspinator --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:46, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Laserbeak, Omega Supreme, Springer, Waspinator --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:51, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bludgeon, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Jazz, Prowl --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 14:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Devastator, Laserbeak, Ravage, Sideways --[[User:LV|LV]] 14:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Ironfist, Straxus, Waspinator, Wreck-Gar --[[User:HunterCham|HunterCham]] 14:57, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Nightbeat, Perceptor, Shockwave, Wheeljack --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:58, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Laserbeak, Ravage, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Wednesday|Wednesday]] 14:59, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Laserbeak, Sentinel Prime, Ultra Magnus, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 15:02, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Battletrap, Jazz, Kup, Rhinox, Skywarp --[[User:Zadok Rox|Zadok Rox]] 15:01, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod, Laserbeak, Ultra Magnus, Unicron --[[User:Thecrookedman|Thecrookedman]] 15:07, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Jazz, Ravage, Shockwave, Skywarp --[[User:Riddlerj|Riddlerj]] 15:07, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Buzzsaw, Megatron (BW), Ravage, Sideways, Waspinator --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:09, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Rampage (Beast Wars), Strika, Tarantulas, The Fallen, Waspinator --[[User:Darth Shadow 91|Darth Shadow]] 19:19, 28, March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Chromedome, Midnight Express, Override (Cybertron), Star Saber (Victory), Ultra Magnus (RiD) --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 15:11, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bruticus, Dirge, Grimlock, Rhinox, Tracks --[[User:Lumpy|Lumpy]] 15:11, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Lugnut, Sentinel Prime, Sky-Byte, Waspinator --[[User:Dan|Dan]] 15:14, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Nightbeat, Shockwave, Skids, Springer -- [[User:Danja|Danja]] 15:15, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Nightbeat, Prowl, Rhinox, Shockwave --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] 15:21, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod, Nightbeat, Scorponok, Shockwave --[[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Jetstorm (BM), Rampage (BW), Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Interrobang|--Interrobang]] 15:27, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Grimlock, Rhinox, Scorponok, Tarantulas --[[User:Chip|Chip]] 15:31, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Jazz, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:32, 28 March 2011 (EDT) <br />
* Bulkhead (Animated/Prime), Lugnut (Animated/G1), Megatron (Beast Wars), Nightbeat (G1), Waspinator (Beast Wars) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:49, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bludgeon, Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Jazz --[[User:Trixter|Trixter]] 15:59, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Hot Rod (G1), Kup, Slog, Tarantulas --[[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:02, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod/imus, Jazz, Prowl, Sideways, Wheeljack --[[User:TCBot|TCBot]] 16:05, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bulkhead, Rhinox, Shockwave, Sky-Byte --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:10, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]], [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 16:28, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Jazz, Optimus Primal, Ravage --[[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:37, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Lugnut, Rotorstorm, Signal Lancer, Sixshot, Waspinator --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:48, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Ironfist, Kup, Scorponok (G1), Sunstreaker, Swindle --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 16:52, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Devastator, Grimlock, Omega Supreme, Primus, Shockwave --[[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 16:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Flamewar, Prowl, Swindle, Wildrider --[[User:Nitrostreak|Nitrostreak]] 16:56, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Impactor, Rattrap, Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:03, 28 March 2011 (EDT) (can I vote AGAINST Shockwave?)<br />
* Barricade, Inferno (BW), Shockwave, Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Gizen|Gizen]] 17:26, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Grimlock, Perceptor, Shockwave --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:10, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Rattrap, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:NicholasPrime|NicholasPrime]] 18:15, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bulkhead, Grimlock, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:Bobpiecheese|Bobpiecheese]] 18:33, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Galvatron, Ravage, Shockwave, Silverbolt (BW), Sky-Byte --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 18:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade (Movie), Blitzwing (Animated), Devastator (G1 or Movie), Magnaboss, Shockwave (Any) --[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 23:21, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod(G1), Jazz (Animated),Omega Supreme (WFC),Springer (G1), Ultra Magnus (G1) --FranciscanAutobot - 0:20, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Alpha Trion, Grimlock, Ratbat, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:MaliciousHero|MaliciousHero]] 23:53, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Shockwave, Sideways, Swindle, Waspinator --Gearshift (logged out)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Jazz, Sentinel Prime (Animated), Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 05:48, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Jazz, Scorponok, Shrapnel, Waspinator --[[User:Blackjack|Blackjack]] 06:18, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blades, Gears, Punch/Counterpunch, Smokescreen (G1), Swerve --[[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 06:29, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Jazz, Laserbeak, Skywarp --[[User:Poweredconvoy|Poweredconvoy]] 07:14, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Spot, Mindwipe, Quickmix, Searchlight, Silverbolt --[[User:Ironhold|Ironhold]] 09:49, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead (Animated/Prime), Ravage, Scrounge, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Awa64|Awa64]] 11:49, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Astrotrain, Devastator (G1), Jazz, Ultra Magnus (RID), Wheeljack (G1) --[[Special:Contributions/68.147.45.66|68.147.45.66]] 11:57, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Magmatron, Prowl, Swindle (Animated), Waspinator --[[User:Timmyformers0001|Timmyformers0001]] 29 March 2011<br />
* Blackarachnia (Beast Era), Cheetor (Beast Era), Ginrai, Megatron (Beast Era), Optimus Primal. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 13:06, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead(Animated), Optimus Primal, Shockwave, Swindle, Waspinator (BW) --[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 29 March 2011 (EDT) <br />
* Blackarachnia (Beast Era), Jetstorm (Beast Machines), Rampage (ROTF), Tarantulas (Beast Era), Waspinator (Beast Era) -- [[User:MadmanFoidart|MadmanFoidart]] 13:47, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Jazz(G1), Shockwave(G1), Ultra Magnus (G1), Wheeljack (G1). --[[User:Primo|Primo]] 15:25, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock (G1), Megatron (BW), Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 16:03, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor, Jetstorm (BM), Prowl, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:LioRC|LioRC]] 16:29, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod/Rodimus, Ironfist, Powerdasher(s), Sari Sumdac, Waspinator --JediFlaherty<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Prowl, Ultra Magnus, Waspinator --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 23:01, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Grimlock, Hot Shot, Vector Prime, Waspinator --[[User:Fortress Minimus|Fortress Minimus]] 09:16, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Sideswipe, Skywarp, Sunstreaker, Thundercracker --[[User:musicalrose911|musicalrose911]] 10:14, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Optimus Primal, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:JW|JW]] 11:17, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Prowl, Waspinator --[[User:Secretcode|Secretcode]] 12:29, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Arcee (G1), Elita One (G1), Prowl, Sideburn (Robots in Disguiuse), Swindle --[[User:TFGirlMary|TFGirlMary]] 13:46, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
*[[Grimlock]], [[Rampage (BW)]], [[Sari Sumdac]],[[ Tarantulas]], [[Waspinator]] --[[User:DinoFreakUSA|DinoFreakUSA]] 16:30, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor(BW), Megatron (BW), Optimus Primal, Rattrap, and Waspinator --[[User:Optimalgirl|Optimalgirl]] 17:46, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz(G1), Jetfire(G1), Prowl(G1), Rampage(BW),Ultra Magnus(RID). --[[User:Astrotrain85|Astrotrain85]] 20:57, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead (Prime), Inferno (G1), Sideswipe (G1), Sky-Byte (RID), Straxus (G1) --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:26, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Impactor, Jhiaxus, Liege Maximo, Scrounge, Straxus --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:23, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Ratbat, Ravage, Straxus, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Strangefour|Strangefour]] 00:48, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Omega Supreme, Quickstrike (BW), Ravage, Waspinator --H. Jameel al Khafiz [[Special:Contributions/216.151.95.152|216.151.95.152]] 08:20, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Jazz, Prowl, Rattrap, Ultra Magnus --[[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 16:07, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackout, Grimlock, Ravage, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Deceptinerd|Deceptinerd]] 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Ironfist, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:07, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod, Kup, Rattrap, Shockwave, Unicron --[[User:Anguirus|Anguirus]] 00:38, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Elita One, Galvatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Shokaract, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:12, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Prowl, Ravage, Shockwave, Sunstreaker --[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 12:21, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Jazz, Rattrap, Sixshot, Tarantulas, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Russellestate|Russellestate]] 14:18, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Omega Supreme, Overlord, Ratbat, Sideways, Sky-Byte --[[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:12, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Blurr, Dirge, Inferno (BW), Wheeljack --WeaselManEatsPie<br />
* Fortress Maximus (G1), Megatron (BW), Nightbeat (G1), Ratbat (G1), Waspinator (BW) --[[User:Thundershot|Thundershot]] 12:00 2, April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Astrotrain]], [[Blitzwing]], [[Erector]], [[Shockwave]], [[Sky-Byte]] --[[User:Waverider|Waverider]] 12:09, 2, April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Black]][[Blackarachnia (Animated)|arachnia]], [[Rattrap]], [[The Fallen]], [[Unicron]], [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] --[[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:10 PM, 2 April 2011 A.D.<br />
* [[Arcee (G1)]], [[Blurr (G1)]], [[Hot Rod (G1)]], [[Jazz (G1)]], [[Wreck-Gar (G1)]] --[[User:Metroplex|Metroplex]] 17:16, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Jazz (G1), Shockwave (G1), Waspinator (BW), Wreck-Gar (G1) --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 22:26, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Blitzwing, Lugnut, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Professor Icepick|Professor Icepick]] 22:28, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Bludgeon, Thundercracker, Waspinator --[[User:Boy Blunderous|Boy Blunderous]] 10:09 PM, April 2nd 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blurr, Prowl, Sunstreaker, Waspinator -- [[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 05:14, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Blitzwing, Bludgeon, Shockwave, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Starscream0625|Starscream0625]] 10:14, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bludgeon, Doublecross, Galvatron, Grimlock, Snapdragon --[[User:johnthedragon|johnthedragon]] 11:35, 3 April 2011<br />
* Alan, Big Daddy, Erector, Impactor, Straxus --[[User:locustreign|locustreign]] 21:15, 3 April 2011<br />
* Bludgeon, Carnivac, Erector, Impactor, Thunderwing --[[User:BigPete|BigPete]] 22:21, 3 April 2011<br />
* Apeface, Erector, Magnaboss, Perceptor, Trypticon --[[User:Guskd|Guskd]] 16:59, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Erector, Grandus, Thunderwing, Ultra Magnus, Wheeljack --[[User:Gen. Magnus|Gen. Magnus]] 17:11, 3 April 2011<br />
* Grimlock, Rattrap, Shockwave, Thundercracker (Action Master), Waspinator --[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 17:41, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Omega Supreme, Primus, Rodimus Prime, Scattershot, Setinal Prime --[[User: TeskotPrime]] 17:18, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Black Arachnia, Botanica, Defensor, Omega Supreme --[[User:Dragonspike74|Dragonspike74]] 18:35, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Huffer, Lugnutz, Rattrap, Slicer, Wheeljack --[[User:Tupka217|Tupka217]] 18:38, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor, Kup, Lugnut, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:Spin-Out|Spin-Out]] 19:05, 3 April 2011 (EDT) <br />
* [[Jazz (G1)]], [[Omega Supreme (G1)]], [[Skywarp (G1)]], [[Trypticon (G1)]], [[Waspinator (BW)]] --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 20:52, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Arcee ,Blitzwing, [[Cyclonus (G1) ]], [[Perceptor (G1)]], Rattrap --[[User:Amphoros|Amphoros]] 22:56, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Scorponok, Swindle, Ultra Magnus, Waspinator --[[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 02:39, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Hot Shot, Jetfire, Rodimus, Waspinator --[[User:Amadeus Windfall|Amadeus Windfall]] 03:28, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Cliffjumper, Frenzy, Unicron, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Nuclearxpotato|Nuclearxpotato]] 14:29, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Hot Rod (G1), Optimus Primal (BW), Waspinator (BW), Wheeljack (G1) --[[Tonyfitz|Tonyfitz]] 21:48. 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Grimlock (G1)|Grim]][[Grimlock (Animated)|lock]], [[Shockwave (G1)|Sho]][[Shockwave (Animated)|ckw]][[Shockwave (Movie)|ave]], [[Sideways (RID)|Side]][[Sideways (ROTF)|ways]], [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thun]][[Thundercracker (Armada)|dercr]][[Thundercracker (Animated)|acker]], [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspi]][[Wasp|nator]]. --[[User:Rayqui|Rayqui]] 06:03, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bluestreak, Shockwave, Springer, Unicron, Waspinator --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 12:34, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Fangry]], [[Longrack (BWN)]], [[Powerhug (BWII)]], [[Rampage (BW)]], [[Waspinator (BW)]] --[[User:Wollstone|Wollstone]] 18:35, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Depth Charge, Rattrap, High Wire, Waspinator --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:50, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Jazz, Rattrap (BW), Tankorr (BM), Wheeljack (G1) --[[User:Crazyjaco|Crazyjaco]] 18:51, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod, Rattrap (BW), Ravage, SilverBolt (BW) {{unsigned|68.163.46.67}}<br />
* Jazz, Kup, Midnight Express, Sky-Byte, Unicron --[[User:Optimus_Prime_810|Optimus_Prime_810]] 01:47, 6 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<!-- Remember to put your nominations in alphabetical order! --><br />
<br />
[[Category: TFWiki.net]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator&diff=572667User talk:Devastator2011-04-06T15:41:42Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>Hey, you voted for Soundwave for the Hall of Fame, but Hasbro's already auto-inducting him so he's not eligible to nominate. Please make another selection! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:00, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Thanks! :) --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 11:41, 6 April 2011 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:TFWiki.net_2011_Transformers_Hall_of_Fame_Auditions/Entries&diff=572431MediaWiki:TFWiki.net 2011 Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions/Entries2011-04-05T22:50:26Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>This is the page for the '''TFWiki.net Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions''' entries. The rules are as follows:<br />
<br />
#You must pick your top five ''Transformers'' characters, from any era. They must actually '''be''' Transformers; sorry, but no humans, non-Transformer aliens, non-Transformer robots, or anything else of the sort are being considered for the Hall of Fame. Any votes for such entities will '''not''' be tabulated. It is the sole discretion of the contest organizers to decide what does and does not count.<br />
#Take your top five list and '''put it in alphabetical order'''. Order of preference does not matter. Feel free to denote the character's franchise of origin, although these distinctions may not figure into the final results. <br />
#You '''cannot''' pick a specific version of Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream, Dinobot, Ironhide, Ratchet, or Soundwave. They've already been inducted or soon will be!<br />
#Only one entry per user.<br />
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Please put your characters of choice and user name below in the following manner:<br />
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*Bulkhead, Emirate Xaaron, Side Swipe, Waspinator, X-Brawn --(four tildes)<br />
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Poll entry period ends '''[[April 6]], 2011'''. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:44, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
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==Poll entries==<br />
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* Grimlock, Hot Shot, Ravage, Shokaract, Waspinator --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:46, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Laserbeak, Omega Supreme, Springer, Waspinator --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:51, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bludgeon, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Jazz, Prowl --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 14:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Devastator, Laserbeak, Ravage, Sideways --[[User:LV|LV]] 14:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Ironfist, Straxus, Waspinator, Wreck-Gar --[[User:HunterCham|HunterCham]] 14:57, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Nightbeat, Perceptor, Shockwave, Wheeljack --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:58, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Laserbeak, Ravage, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Wednesday|Wednesday]] 14:59, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Laserbeak, Sentinel Prime, Ultra Magnus, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 15:02, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Battletrap, Jazz, Kup, Rhinox, Skywarp --[[User:Zadok Rox|Zadok Rox]] 15:01, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod, Laserbeak, Ultra Magnus, Unicron --[[User:Thecrookedman|Thecrookedman]] 15:07, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Jazz, Ravage, Shockwave, Skywarp --[[User:Riddlerj|Riddlerj]] 15:07, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Buzzsaw, Megatron (BW), Ravage, Sideways, Waspinator --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:09, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Rampage (Beast Wars), Strika, Tarantulas, The Fallen, Waspinator --[[User:Darth Shadow 91|Darth Shadow]] 19:19, 28, March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Chromedome, Midnight Express, Override (Cybertron), Star Saber (Victory), Ultra Magnus (RiD) --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 15:11, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bruticus, Dirge, Grimlock, Rhinox, Tracks --[[User:Lumpy|Lumpy]] 15:11, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Lugnut, Sentinel Prime, Sky-Byte, Waspinator --[[User:Dan|Dan]] 15:14, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Nightbeat, Shockwave, Skids, Springer -- [[User:Danja|Danja]] 15:15, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Nightbeat, Prowl, Rhinox, Shockwave --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] 15:21, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod, Nightbeat, Scorponok, Shockwave --[[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 15:22, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Jetstorm (BM), Rampage (BW), Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Interrobang|--Interrobang]] 15:27, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Grimlock, Rhinox, Scorponok, Tarantulas --[[User:Chip|Chip]] 15:31, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Jazz, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:32, 28 March 2011 (EDT) <br />
* Bulkhead (Animated/Prime), Lugnut (Animated/G1), Megatron (Beast Wars), Nightbeat (G1), Waspinator (Beast Wars) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:49, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bludgeon, Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Jazz --[[User:Trixter|Trixter]] 15:59, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Hot Rod (G1), Kup, Slog, Tarantulas --[[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:02, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod/imus, Jazz, Prowl, Sideways, Wheeljack --[[User:TCBot|TCBot]] 16:05, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bulkhead, Rhinox, Shockwave, Sky-Byte --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:10, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]], [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 16:28, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock, Jazz, Optimus Primal, Ravage --[[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:37, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Lugnut, Rotorstorm, Signal Lancer, Sixshot, Waspinator --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 16:48, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Ironfist, Kup, Scorponok (G1), Sunstreaker, Swindle --[[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 16:52, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Devastator, Grimlock, Omega Supreme, Primus, Shockwave --[[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 16:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Flamewar, Prowl, Swindle, Wildrider --[[User:Nitrostreak|Nitrostreak]] 16:56, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade, Impactor, Rattrap, Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:03, 28 March 2011 (EDT) (can I vote AGAINST Shockwave?)<br />
* Barricade, Inferno (BW), Shockwave, Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Gizen|Gizen]] 17:26, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Grimlock, Perceptor, Shockwave --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 18:10, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Rattrap, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:NicholasPrime|NicholasPrime]] 18:15, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Bulkhead, Grimlock, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:Bobpiecheese|Bobpiecheese]] 18:33, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Galvatron, Ravage, Shockwave, Silverbolt (BW), Sky-Byte --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 18:54, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Barricade (Movie), Blitzwing (Animated), Devastator (G1 or Movie), Magnaboss, Shockwave (Any) --[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 23:21, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod(G1), Jazz (Animated),Omega Supreme (WFC),Springer (G1), Ultra Magnus (G1) --FranciscanAutobot - 0:20, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Alpha Trion, Grimlock, Ratbat, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:MaliciousHero|MaliciousHero]] 23:53, 28 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Shockwave, Sideways, Swindle, Waspinator --Gearshift (logged out)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Jazz, Sentinel Prime (Animated), Tarantulas, Waspinator --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 05:48, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Jazz, Scorponok, Shrapnel, Waspinator --[[User:Blackjack|Blackjack]] 06:18, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blades, Gears, Punch/Counterpunch, Smokescreen (G1), Swerve --[[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 06:29, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Jazz, Laserbeak, Skywarp --[[User:Poweredconvoy|Poweredconvoy]] 07:14, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Spot, Mindwipe, Quickmix, Searchlight, Silverbolt --[[User:Ironhold|Ironhold]] 09:49, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead (Animated/Prime), Ravage, Scrounge, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Awa64|Awa64]] 11:49, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Astrotrain, Devastator (G1), Jazz, Ultra Magnus (RID), Wheeljack (G1) --[[Special:Contributions/68.147.45.66|68.147.45.66]] 11:57, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Magmatron, Prowl, Swindle (Animated), Waspinator --[[User:Timmyformers0001|Timmyformers0001]] 29 March 2011<br />
* Blackarachnia (Beast Era), Cheetor (Beast Era), Ginrai, Megatron (Beast Era), Optimus Primal. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 13:06, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead(Animated), Optimus Primal, Shockwave, Swindle, Waspinator (BW) --[[User:Sunjumper|Sunjumper]] 13:41, 29 March 2011 (EDT) <br />
* Blackarachnia (Beast Era), Jetstorm (Beast Machines), Rampage (ROTF), Tarantulas (Beast Era), Waspinator (Beast Era) -- [[User:MadmanFoidart|MadmanFoidart]] 13:47, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Jazz(G1), Shockwave(G1), Ultra Magnus (G1), Wheeljack (G1). --[[User:Primo|Primo]] 15:25, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Grimlock (G1), Megatron (BW), Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] 16:03, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor, Jetstorm (BM), Prowl, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:LioRC|LioRC]] 16:29, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod/Rodimus, Ironfist, Powerdasher(s), Sari Sumdac, Waspinator --JediFlaherty<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Prowl, Ultra Magnus, Waspinator --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 23:01, 29 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Grimlock, Hot Shot, Vector Prime, Waspinator --[[User:Fortress Minimus|Fortress Minimus]] 09:16, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz, Sideswipe, Skywarp, Sunstreaker, Thundercracker --[[User:musicalrose911|musicalrose911]] 10:14, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Optimus Primal, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:JW|JW]] 11:17, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus, Prowl, Waspinator --[[User:Secretcode|Secretcode]] 12:29, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Arcee (G1), Elita One (G1), Prowl, Sideburn (Robots in Disguiuse), Swindle --[[User:TFGirlMary|TFGirlMary]] 13:46, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
*[[Grimlock]], [[Rampage (BW)]], [[Sari Sumdac]],[[ Tarantulas]], [[Waspinator]] --[[User:DinoFreakUSA|DinoFreakUSA]] 16:30, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor(BW), Megatron (BW), Optimus Primal, Rattrap, and Waspinator --[[User:Optimalgirl|Optimalgirl]] 17:46, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Jazz(G1), Jetfire(G1), Prowl(G1), Rampage(BW),Ultra Magnus(RID). --[[User:Astrotrain85|Astrotrain85]] 20:57, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead (Prime), Inferno (G1), Sideswipe (G1), Sky-Byte (RID), Straxus (G1) --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:26, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Impactor, Jhiaxus, Liege Maximo, Scrounge, Straxus --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:23, 30 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Ratbat, Ravage, Straxus, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Strangefour|Strangefour]] 00:48, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Omega Supreme, Quickstrike (BW), Ravage, Waspinator --H. Jameel al Khafiz [[Special:Contributions/216.151.95.152|216.151.95.152]] 08:20, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Jazz, Prowl, Rattrap, Ultra Magnus --[[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 16:07, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackout, Grimlock, Ravage, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Deceptinerd|Deceptinerd]] 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Ironfist, Ravage, Waspinator --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:07, 31 March 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Hot Rod, Kup, Rattrap, Shockwave, Unicron --[[User:Anguirus|Anguirus]] 00:38, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Elita One, Galvatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, Shokaract, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:12, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Prowl, Ravage, Shockwave, Sunstreaker --[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 12:21, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Jazz, Rattrap, Sixshot, Tarantulas, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Russellestate|Russellestate]] 14:18, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Omega Supreme, Overlord, Ratbat, Sideways, Sky-Byte --[[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:12, 1 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blitzwing, Blurr, Dirge, Inferno (BW), Wheeljack --WeaselManEatsPie<br />
* Fortress Maximus (G1), Megatron (BW), Nightbeat (G1), Ratbat (G1), Waspinator (BW) --[[User:Thundershot|Thundershot]] 12:00 2, April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Astrotrain]], [[Blitzwing]], [[Erector]], [[Shockwave]], [[Sky-Byte]] --[[User:Waverider|Waverider]] 12:09, 2, April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Black]][[Blackarachnia (Animated)|arachnia]], [[Rattrap]], [[The Fallen]], [[Unicron]], [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] --[[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:10 PM, 2 April 2011 A.D.<br />
* [[Arcee (G1)]], [[Blurr (G1)]], [[Hot Rod (G1)]], [[Jazz (G1)]], [[Wreck-Gar (G1)]] --[[User:Metroplex|Metroplex]] 17:16, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Jazz (G1), Shockwave (G1), Waspinator (BW), Wreck-Gar (G1) --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 22:26, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blackarachnia, Blitzwing, Lugnut, Swindle, Waspinator --[[User:Professor Icepick|Professor Icepick]] 22:28, 2 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blackarachnia, Bludgeon, Thundercracker, Waspinator --[[User:Boy Blunderous|Boy Blunderous]] 10:09 PM, April 2nd 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Blurr, Prowl, Sunstreaker, Waspinator -- [[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 05:14, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Blitzwing, Bludgeon, Shockwave, Ultra Magnus --[[User:Starscream0625|Starscream0625]] 10:14, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bludgeon, Doublecross, Galvatron, Grimlock, Snapdragon --[[User:johnthedragon|johnthedragon]] 11:35, 3 April 2011<br />
* Alan, Big Daddy, Erector, Impactor, Straxus --[[User:locustreign|locustreign]] 21:15, 3 April 2011<br />
* Bludgeon, Carnivac, Erector, Impactor, Thunderwing --[[User:BigPete|BigPete]] 22:21, 3 April 2011<br />
* Apeface, Erector, Magnaboss, Perceptor, Trypticon --[[User:Guskd|Guskd]] 16:59, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Erector, Grandus, Thunderwing, Ultra Magnus, Wheeljack --[[User:Gen. Magnus|Gen. Magnus]] 17:11, 3 April 2011<br />
* Grimlock, Rattrap, Shockwave, Thundercracker (Action Master), Waspinator --[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 17:41, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Omega Supreme, Primus, Rodimus Prime, Scattershot, Setinal Prime --[[User: TeskotPrime]] 17:18, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Black Arachnia, Botanica, Defensor, Omega Supreme --[[User:Dragonspike74|Dragonspike74]] 18:35, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Huffer, Lugnutz, Rattrap, Slicer, Wheeljack --[[User:Tupka217|Tupka217]] 18:38, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Cheetor, Kup, Lugnut, Shockwave, Waspinator --[[User:Spin-Out|Spin-Out]] 19:05, 3 April 2011 (EDT) <br />
* [[Jazz (G1)]], [[Omega Supreme (G1)]], [[Skywarp (G1)]], [[Trypticon (G1)]], [[Waspinator (BW)]] --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 20:52, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
*Arcee ,Blitzwing, [[Cyclonus (G1) ]], [[Perceptor (G1)]], Rattrap --[[User:Amphoros|Amphoros]] 22:56, 3 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Scorponok, Swindle, Ultra Magnus, Waspinator --[[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 02:39, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Arcee, Hot Shot, Jetfire, Rodimus, Waspinator --[[User:Amadeus Windfall|Amadeus Windfall]] 03:28, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Blaster, Cliffjumper, Frenzy, Unicron, Wreck-Gar --[[User:Nuclearxpotato|Nuclearxpotato]] 14:29, 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Grimlock (G1), Hot Rod (G1), Optimus Primal (BW), Waspinator (BW), Wheeljack (G1) --[[Tonyfitz|Tonyfitz]] 21:48. 4 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Grimlock (G1)|Grim]][[Grimlock (Animated)|lock]], [[Shockwave (G1)|Sho]][[Shockwave (Animated)|ckw]][[Shockwave (Movie)|ave]], [[Sideways (RID)|Side]][[Sideways (ROTF)|ways]], [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thun]][[Thundercracker (Armada)|dercr]][[Thundercracker (Animated)|acker]], [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspi]][[Wasp|nator]]. --[[User:Rayqui|Rayqui]] 06:03, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bluestreak, Shockwave, Springer, Unicron, Waspinator --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 12:34, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* [[Fangry]], [[Longrack (BWN)]], [[Powerhug (BWII)]], [[Rampage (BW)]], [[Waspinator (BW)]] --[[User:Wollstone|Wollstone]] 18:35, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
* Bulkhead, Depth Charge, Rattrap, Soundwave, Waspinator --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:50, 5 April 2011 (EDT)<br />
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[[Category: TFWiki.net]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Sari_Sumdac_(Animated)&diff=496344Talk:Sari Sumdac (Animated)2010-09-03T14:07:33Z<p>Devastator: </p>
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<div>==Meta-category==<br />
'Tentative' meta-category? (So that one can periodically go through it and clear things out?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)<br />
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==Sandals and such==<br />
I'm debating undoing the "not a Kiss Player" addition, but can't quite justify it based on the general humor tone of the rest of the wiki, so I'll leave it to someone else. I'm also tempted to change the picture caption, as I'm pretty sure those aren't sandals. (The dark orange parts of the feet appear to be the shoe uppers, rather than a differently colored part of her socks.) However, that just seems ridiculously picky somehow. If anyone else has a good idea about this, feel free to implement it, I guess.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)<br />
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I bet she is a robot thats why she has somehow managed to gain a connection to the All-Spark and also not be completly hated by the fandom yet [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Adopted?==<br />
I'm curious... what's the source for Sari being adopted? [[User:CarrerCrytharis|CarrerCrytharis]] 06:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think it was her official bio. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
::In the promo material that Unicron.com received, Sari's bio stated that she's adopted. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Well-liked character?==<br />
I'd really like to debate that she's "well-liked" so far - I personally hate her, the person I watch the show with hates her, and every Transformers fan I talk to hates her. So unless we're of a gross minority, I think it's safe to say her appeal is not universal. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 09:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I don't hate her, therefore every fan doesn't hate her. You should try asking outside your social circle--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 13:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::By no means was I trying to say that every fan hates her! I'm just personally annoyed by her being defined as a well-liked character when all of my fellow TF fans - including myself - hold no love for her. And erm, I HAVE been asking outside my "social circle" and so far it's been nothing but "she's annoying" and "neutral." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::My own social circle also seems to find her rather amusing, so no hate from me or mine.[[User:Pacce|Pacce]] 13:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Thus far, I kinda like her. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I certainly prefer her than most of the UT kids (certainly anything is better than Kicker). -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:She has a fairly unique interaction with the Autobots compared to past humans. She and Bumblebee make decent partners in crime, so I can see how this would appeal to kids.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
: I personally like how she's the first girl in an American-made series to be '''the''' major human character, and she's a lot less annoying than any Witwiky, IMO. --[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 16:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Tara Strong is awesome. That is all. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::This is true. Good writing + awesome voice actress = character that doesn't annoy me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::See, I love Tara Strong to death, but that doesn't make me automatically love all the characters she plays. The writing is decent (slightly above G1 level writing but not as good as, say, Avatar: The Last Airbender), but I find Sari's character to be little more than Generic Perky Girl with her Deus Ex Machina Key. I enjoyed Spike as a character more because he really WAS just a human, no "omg sekrit POWARZ" to make him more "interesting." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::Spike didn't have powers? The guy and his entire family probably have an allergy to Kryptonite, and then there's the Headmaster thing. Also, calling ''Animated'''s writing slightly better than G1 gives the G1 cartoon ''way'' to much credit.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::Well, Spike and the other Witwickys have 80s Cartoon Disease - just look at the other Hasbro show from the same time period, GI Joe. They were all "human" in the same way. But Spike never whipped out his wallet and used it to revive Optimus Prime. And frankly, I find a lot of the plot devices in TF:CHINS just as laughable as G1, only now with uglier art and more obnoxious humans. In fact, that's WHY I find it watchable - the writing is so similar to G1's lulzy improbability that I enjoy it immensely, or at least enough to ignore the terrible art. Anyway, I'm running speedily away from my point. That is, I and every other TF fan I've talked to absolutely despise Sari. Calling her "well liked, more so than usual" on her Wiki page Does Not Compute for me. It's fine to call her a "generally liked character" or even just "a popular human character," but using the turn of phrase that's there now makes it seem like every TF fan everywhere absolutely adores her. <br />
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::::::Hell, at this point I'd even take Kicker. At least his art style doesn't hurt my eyes. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 01:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Geez, give the art style a break already! People bitching about the art style reminds me of when [[wikipedia: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker|Zelda: Windwaker]] first came out for the Gamecube. People dismissed the game as "kiddie" just because of the cell-shading style, but it was actually a very enjoyable game, just as challenging as any other in the Zelda series. Actually, Sari reminds me very much of Tetra in that game.<br />
<br />
:::::::Just give it a chance. I actually prefer the stylized art over the overly-detailed 80's comic look of G1. Plus, is Sari having her key really all that different than how the All Spark was used in the [[Transformers (2007)|Movie]]? Both are miraculous objects that completely ignore all known laws of physics and can bring robots to life/fix said robots in about 3 seconds flat. At least in a cartoon that's somewhat more acceptable.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 01:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I've been giving it as much of a chance as I can. And no, sorry - Wind Waker at least had a consistent art style (which I happen to like). TF:CHINS is all over the place, and I have screencaps of Sari LOOKING COOL. Er, that is to say, looking so poorly drawn that it's laughable. I mean, I mostly like TF:CHINS, I really do. And the "but the movie did it!" excuse doesn't quite fly in this case, because the movie at least had the excuse of being directed by Michael Bay. Oh, and the movie didn't use it EVERY HALF HOUR. 'OHAI, it's a new episode, time for Sari to use her damn key for a totally random reason that in no way correlates to the way she used it last episode.' ANYWAY, POINT STILL BEING: I don't like her! She is annoying. All others that I have spoken to share this opinion. It is not reasonable to DEFINE her as "well liked, more so than usual." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::On this page, you are the only voice against. If some more people speak up here with a negative opinion of her (preferably, people who are regular editors on this wiki), we'll most likely change the page. [[User:JW|JW]] 03:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Well, that's frustrating. The only TF fans that count are the ones that edit this Wiki? Lamesauce. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 05:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::No, but we're confident that fans who have contributed to this wiki aren't cranks shoutign their opinions at the top of their lungs and claiming everyone else agrees with them. The sort of person that might, say, show up on the wiki and make no edits except one declaring that the entire fandom agrees with him, and then (upon discovering that many peopel ehre do not) accuse the regulars here of being out of step with transfandom.<br />
:::::::::::I'm not accusing you of this- the problem is that the vrank imposing his opinion on others and someone like yourself- actually (presumably) ''exressing'' the opinion of the majority-- are functionally impossible to distinguish in terms of behavior- they both show up out of the blue ont he wiki and make the same edits and have the same argument. So we have to say "Gee, if ''everyone'' thinks this, do most of us think this?" And if the answer's no, we'll usually revert sweeping statements. It's possible that we might be ''wrong'' and actually are out of step with transfandom... but it's the best system we have to guard against minority bias. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::If you're not accusing me of this, why would you bring it up at all? I never implied that I was expressing the opinion of any majority anywhere, merely another facet of TF fandom. Please, feel free to re-read my comments. I want her popularity to be downplayed a little because I feel that it's unjustifiably overblown in the article. Also note that I have made no edits at all for good reason; I would much rather talk about this and hope a more experienced editor can see reason and accommodate both views. I hardly think me signing up for the wiki to pop onto the talk page and debate a single line in the "Notes" section of one character qualifies me as an OMG SABOTEUR. (That's Jazz. lulz.) I'm actually trying to be as least troll-like as possible here, but it's hard when I'm surrounded by people who are obviously huge fans of the character. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Well we can't very well quantify "all others you have spoken to," no?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 05:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Has anyone actually quantified the "reasonably well-liked" comment, either? The fandom is rather sprawled these days, across multiple forums, so I would assume that there's probably no shortage of negative opinion about Sari out there. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I'd quantify it as "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's my opinion of Sari- she's okay-- and as kid-avatar character go she's astonishingly ''non''-annoying. So 'reasonably well liked.'-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I feel justified in discounting the opinion of anyone who consistently refers to Animated as "TF:CHINS." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::So because I use a comical nickname for the show, I'm automatically discounted? Wow. I guess I've been incredibly lucky, avoiding this elitist branch of TF-fandom thus far. It looks like Michael is the only one here who is even willing to consider that there are TF fans that dislike this character. I'm a long-time lurker here and love the wiki, but this is just terrible. I'm not asking for her page to say EVERYONE HATES SARI, SHE SUCKS - I'm just asking that it not read like we all fall over at her feet. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 06:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::But people who refer to Hillary Clinton by derisive nicknames in the course of conversation about her can reasonably be construed to have a negative bias against her. Thus casting doubt on your unbiased observation that everyone hates Sari.<br />
:::::::::::::::Besides, you probably only hate her because she's a Paki. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::::LOLWHUT? I hate her for the reasons previously stated. Her race is a non-issue for me. And I really don't consider TF:CHINS to be a 'derisive' nickname, I consider it amusing and fitting for the CHIN-CENTRIC art. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 08:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Derik was only kidding about the race thing. I think. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::Leaving aside the question of why the opinion of a person who dislikes Animated's art style and uses a silly nickname while expressing said dislike should be automatically discounted, what I was trying to get at was this: How was the "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual" conclusion arrived at in the first place? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::::::The "arglebarglebargleonlyrobotsoncybertron" folks have been conspicuously well-behaved of late.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 06:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Right. So lets go back to the UT kids: Carlos with his racial stereotypes, Bud with his inability to stay focused on anything for more than two seconds, and Kicker, who was ''physically abusive toward the Autobots''. Sure, those are the types of characters that I want representing my species. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 02:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Don't forget Fred's inability to go five minutes without junk food. Also, Chip Chase is superhuman. The man is immune to acid rain that brought Autobots to their knees and can tear an 5¼" floppy disc in hald with his bear hands.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 02:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Don't forget that if this show was Japanese, Sari would be making out with Bumblebee on a regular basis and the point of view would be consistently at a below-skirt level. Personally, I love Sari. Best human character in a TF series, as far as I'm concerned. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Tyring to stay a bit on point here: The line "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual." <br />
<br />
Now from what I've seen, it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character. The general reaction to the character I've observed doesn't seem like anything particularly worth noting in her article. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:How about we modify it to say that she is one of the few human characters who have not caused a section of the Transformers fandom to declare holy war upon the human race in the Transformers fiction? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Has ''anyone'' here besides [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] voiced an opinion that contradicts "reasonably well liked, more so than usual"? If people don't like her deus ex machina key, that might make a valid separate point, but that's separate from liking her herself. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::I think that not even Combobreaker has voiced an opinion contrary to the statement. He doesn't like her, and the people he's talked to (before coming here) don't like her. That doesn't make the statement inaccurate, because it is describing a generalized opinion of hundreds of active fans. Apparently all the editors paying attention to this page feel that in ''their'' observations of other fans, Sari seems to have been better received than most humans. The phrasing "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" doesn't even remotely mean "all the fans think she's great". It means exactly what it says -- she is liked more than most human characters, ie. the majority of the fandom does not despise her. As a rule of thumb, Transformers fans (treated as a homogeneous group) hate human sidekicks. There are certainly pockets of the fandom that hate Sari. But she is, on average, *not* hated. That is definitely worthy of note. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Okay, but where are we pulling this "on average?" It can't be reasonably quantified any more than my own personal experiences with TF fans. That is all I have been trying to get across here. There's no link to any outside polls, discussions, or articles that talk about how popular she is with fans. I find the "well liked, more so than usual" statement to be a little too all-encompassing for my tastes. How about we just say she's "generally popular" or "mostly liked" instead? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::8 or nine people in this discussion disagree with you, and none agree. I'd call Sari pretty well liked unless the 8 or 9 of us are secretly the same guy. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 03:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::GAH, again with using this wiki's talk page to justify what's on the wiki! Oh god, the wikiality is suffocating me. Look, in wikis, you are supposed to cite references. Just because the people that hang out on a character's talk page are ga-ga over said character does NOT mean that the rest of the fandom shares the same opinion. I AM NOT TRYING TO MOVE MOUNTAINS HERE. Please re-read my comment. I want her to just be noted as being "generally popular" or "mostly liked!" How horrible of me! I'm corrupting the TF fandom! Jeez. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 03:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Dude, you're not kidding when you say you're skilled at stirring up drama! As much as I do appreciate Sari as a character, you've made it QUITE clear that not everone shares that opinion. Maybe something along the lines of "mostly well-liked" would be a reasonable alternative, if everyone else agrees.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 03:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yeah, what's really crazy is I'm not even TRYING to stir up drama. At this point I'm convinced that almost everyone here is completely unwilling to acknowledge differing opinions in fandom - I really like your compromise and think that it would fit the real-world reception of her character. (After all, others aside from me have noted in these comments that she is not universally liked!) However, it just seems like most people responding to me are overly hostile because I'm new and have a different opinion. I'm getting called names for wanting a wiki article to be slightly edited? WTF? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I say leave it the way it is. We shouldn't change the entry just because one loudmouth says we should. Combobreaker, you say we aren't showing any polls or articles saying she is well liked. Well... can you show us any polls or articles saying that she ISN'T well liked? [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Again, point missed. The way she's referred to in this article makes it seem as though every TF fan everywhere loves her. They don't, and people other than me have said as much on this talk page. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::We're also supposed to find consensus. We think we ''have''. If you want to argue our consensus is not representative maybe ''you'' should be citing references to support ''your'' point. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I am so frustrated by this sort of attitude on any wiki. Just because you are the majority here does not make you the majority everywhere else. I am here representing a differing opinion, which, as NEITHER are easily citable I think BOTH are equally valid. Your personal experience dictates that Sari is popular. Fine, that's awesome. My own personal experience - maybe because I talk almost exclusively to G1 fans - says that she's despised. In this situation I think it's perfectly reasonable to just turn the love on her wiki down a notch, because right now it's going to 11. I'd like to at least see it backed off to an 8. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::You offer no evidence for your position other than anecdotes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::Same for the statement that currently stands. Just asking it to be toned down a bit. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Do you really think that "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" is an 11?<br />
::::::::::Have you considered taking a break from this discussion (which, after all, does not need to be decided today), and [[Special:Contributions/Combobreaker|spending some time contributing elsewhere in the wiki]]? I'm sure you have a great deal to offer toward making this wiki a better and more informative document, so you shouldn't let this one trivia point occupy all your time. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:05, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
::::::::::: Please read the comments on this page from other people. KilMichaelMcC has said "it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character" and Derik says she is "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's less general than what is there now.<br />
:::::::::::Oh, and do me a favor and Google "Sari Sumdac" and tell me what the first result says about her. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::PS: I really want to contribute to this wiki, but believe it or not, I thought I'd start with something small. I had no idea I'd start such a mess just by wanting a character's unquantified popularity slightly edited. That's why I stuck to the talk page instead of editing it myself - didn't want to just jump into editing the wiki itself and piss people off. Somehow managed to do that anyway, but... oh well. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Don't worry too much about it, dude. Contributions will be judged on their own merits. This issue seems to have been solved to your satisfaction with Repowers'a edit; I don't think anyone will object to you continuing to contribute. If they do, they'll let you know what and why at the time. /:) --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 20:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
I am still uncertain that fandom reaction to Sari is particularly noteworthy at all. Is it really any different from, say, the reaction to the Cybertron kids? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think I love you, man, you have been nothing but reasonable and moderate here. I would comment here but I never got into Cybertron, so I'm a little sketchy on the human characters. Suffice it to say that I think trying to define a new character as being universally liked in the Transformers fandom is quite a feat. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::It does NOT say that she is universally well liked by ANY stretch of the imagination! It says she is "reasonably well-liked, more so than usual," basically meaning that many fans like her BETTER than most other human characters, not that we think she's the mesiah or something. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Repowers's edit==<br />
Well done, Repowers. I can comfortably live with that. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Awesome, that's all I wanted. I'm happy now, and reasonably amused that I managed to somehow spawn a talk thread that ended up longer than the article itself. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Not human?==<br />
That's a whoooole big block of text discussing what is pretty much entirely fanwank. Do we really need this?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hmn, it is a bit overlong, actually. Still, I think ''something'' from it needs noting, because Tara Strong's interview and the events of "Megatron Rising" make it clear that there's ''SOMETHING'' unusual about Sari. We could just chop back on the random theories as to what she is, which are all fan-cooked-up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::That's a reason I put in the whole "counterpoints" thing. Reminding them that canon is against them, so stop the fanwanking. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::3 months ago I guessed Sari was a robot and posted it in this discussion article if this turns out to be true I totally called it. [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Things that don't exist==<br />
Seeing how she, legally, doesn't exist, should she get added to that category? Or is that reserved for things that um...in-fictionally-actually? don't exist?[[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] 21:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:It can all be answered with one question: does she think? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 22:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::I'm... Not sure if that question can be answered.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 22:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::We should blank this whole article. There is no information on a 'Sari Sumdac'. (Maybe write that up at the very top and then require page-ing down like 5 times to get at the content, as Chip suggested). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::I tried it to see what it would look like, and I think it works. I imagine we'll change it back if her legal status changes later on. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 23:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::So... are we using the joke or not, now? I think it was a work of genius. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::"Work of genius" or not... when the joke gets in the way of getting information in this wiki, I think it becomes a bad thing. I'm glad the joke is gone, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 06:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::I think it's best to leave the joke at including her in the category, it's a funny way to end the article without confusing people who haven't been watching Animated. [[User:(Undecided)|(Undecided)]] 04:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sari is a Human from the Animated franchise==<br />
<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]].''<br />
<br />
But is she Really? <br />
I know we don't want fan theories, but how about a little bit of a joke. I mean, I've often seen these bits written amusingly on our Wiki.<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]]. Probably. Or she could be a Robot. or maybe a [[Tentakil_%28Energon%29|Squid-Creature]]. We're not all that sure right now to be honest....''<br />
[[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 18:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds pretty good to me. Made me chuckle. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::One vote for... none against... I think I will try the change. If anyone spots it, and thinks it is a bad idea, then feel free to change it back to normal, and join the "debate" here... It can easily be changed back (the original is still here, and all I've done is added something to the end). [[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 12:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Personaly, I think the little 'squid creature' thing is kinda funny, and I vote for temproarily adding it to the article. At least until we learn she's really a human/[[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cyborg]] / robotic android/ squid thing/ *master/ gobot-in-disquise/ whatever she ends up being (my vote's for geneticly altered clone). [[User:AutobotFreak643|AutobotFreak643]] 02:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Incoming spoiler alert==<br />
No, this isn't revealing what Sari actually is. It is a warning about how [[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]] is going to air in Dubai tomorrow, and that it is very likely that the truth about Sari will be revealed then. I strongly suggest that we semi-protect this article to prevent it from becoming too spoilerific (word?) and preserve the dignity of this Wiki. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Too bloody right! I've been away for a couple of days and appear to have missed the big furor over the Animated spoilers (which were annoying the chocolate-coated fudge out of me), but I seem to have been lucky enough to avoid anything major thus far, and want to keep it that way! = [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::And though semi-protect would allow others to still edit it, it would stop new and unregistered users, the most likely culprits, from adding things. Theoretically, we might have to keep it semi-protected until A Bridge Too Close actually airs. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:We're starting to get spoilers for other stuff already, and they're big ones. Someone needs to lock this page now, or we are in for a world of reverts. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
I think we should replace the toppic since A, it isn't the model used in the cartoon, and B, we now have it at the bottom. {{unsigned|96.227.184.235}}<br />
:Please sign your posts. Take a better look; the two pics are different. [[User:JW|JW]] 02:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
Whoops, sorry. -Anonymous<br />
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<br />
== "Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?" ==<br />
From the new piece of Trivia, "In the first part of "Transform And Roll Out!", Sari's father is seen constructing what appears to be a mechanical arm, before noticing Megatron falling from the sky. Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?", I've watched the clip and don't find it very likely. It looks more like an average robotic arm (one that looks similar to another hanging from Isaac's ceiling).<br />
<br />
Opinions? ([[User:Tribor|Tribor]] 06:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC))<br />
<br />
:Yeah, even aside from the unlikelihood that Isaac was working on Sari at that point in time, that arm is much too big to be Sari's. -- [[User:Greenygal|Greenygal]] 10:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not sure about the arm, but in the intro special, they also happened to be working on nanobots. Even going through the whole spiel on fusing human and machine. Guess what Sari appears to be. [[User:Xevon|Xevon]] 06:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC) <br />
::And we saw how well THAT experiment worked. If he couldn't get down that process after Sari already existed, how could he have managed it to create her?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 06:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:*There might have been a big difference between the technology and resources used to create Sari and the technology and resources that they were planning to use in mass production or for public use. Furthermore, if a lot of alien technology(such as technology that is far more advanced than their current technology) was used to make Sari, it could have become too conspicuous, especially if there was no proper introduction for the technology. This would mean that people such as the military or other corporations might start poking their fingers into Sumdac's source of inspiration. There is also the possibility that Sumdac had plucked spare parts right off Megatron, such as rare metals(especially those not readily found on earth) to make Sari, hence he couldn't make another attempt. Another possibility is that Sari is Sumdac's greatest life work, in whom he was pouring all his resources, skills and time and all his other creations are just scraps, spares and extras that he made so that he could support Sari in both her construction and her development. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
<br />
:*None of that really touches on whether the arm in TaRO Pt. 1 was Sari's or not, which was the original question here. *While that's some nice mental exercise, it's a lot of far-reaching speculation without much to back it up.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 15:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC) </ol> It will all be speculation until the series itself provides more information. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
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:And specualtion is for messageboards, not this wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== quote ==<br />
Personally I think the "If you think I'm gonna let you geaeheads out of my sight, you're nuts, and I don't mean the kind that come with bolts" quote better than the current one because she said it, and it just suits her personality more, but then that's just my opinion [[User:Chromia|Chromia]] 16:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Transformersanimated.com is not affiliated with Hasbro, Cartoon network, or ''anyone'' official. ==<br />
It is a ''fansite''. It states so directly on the site's footer. What's more, they are a fansite that, like many of them, has far less stringent requirements for inclusion than this wiki. Just as you would not put something from TFW2005, The Allspark, or TFormers.com up here without first checking if they got it from an official source rather than a leak, apply that reasoning to Transformersanimated.com's news. Don't let the domain name fool you.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 13:59, 4 January 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Given Hasbro went after domain names based upon their trademarks i the late 90s and early 2000s, I'm surprised they didn't go after this site. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:36, 14 March 2009 (EDT) <br />
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== New Caption Suggestion for Super-Sari ==<br />
I humbly suggest, for the judgment of the council, that the caption of the picture of "Super-" or "Robo-" Sari be changed from it's current state, "Masterforce!" to the much awesomer (you read that right) "It's Morphin' Time!" After careful study and extensive meditation, I have reached the conclusion that this would be met with more sniggers from any readers. What say you?<br />
--[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 07:02, 23 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
As the Joker would say, "If you have to explain the joke, THEN THERE IS NO JOKE!"<br />
[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:30, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
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== Sari and fans ==<br />
We're into the third season, and this is just kind of hanging here like a vestigial organ. It's not trivia, it's very speculatey, and now that more of her origin has been revealed it's quite a bit redundant.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 20:17, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Now that her origin is (mostly) revealed, the "Things that don't exist" category isn't really funny anymore. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:21, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Age? ==<br />
<br />
Has it been confirmed yet what teenage robo-Sari's age is? I know in Human error pt 1, when Sumdac gave her the scooter, she said, "Thanks dad, but I was hoping for something with four wheels," implying that she is sixteen-ish, but she came across more as a 13-ish year old to me. Anyone have an answer? -[[User:JesWalHok|JesWalHok]] 17:35, 18 April 2009 (EDT)JesWalHok<br />
:Seems fairly unlikely to be confirmed, as there's no real way to figure out how "old" someone who just spontaneously grew up is with any precision.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:16, 18 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
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Well its apperent that she believes in Santa Clause something a normal 8-year-old would beleive in. So technicaly she is mentaly at age 8. D.J.Sky 4-21-09 6:38<br />
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I agree with ... D.J.Sky Is It? I think she is taking advantage of her age just to get a car.--E-Bot April 21 2009.<br />
:I take offense to that...besides, doesn't Prowl prove that Santa was a Transformer, anyway?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:06, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I think that was just a gag the writers came up with. And by the way, he was implying that Santa has clones.--E-Bot April 22 2009<br />
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== Female Transformer? ==<br />
<br />
Since Sari is a Cybertronian lifeform with (presumably) a spark and circuits, couldn't she be considered a female Transformer now? It could be that her human form is her alt mode, kind of like Blackarachnia and Waspinator's bug modes. Should we add her to the ranks?--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 14:12, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Yes! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:33, 7 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
*I agree. Sari's basically an Autobot with an organic mode. You can not dispute that, no matter how hard you try.[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 13:01, 17 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
**So...what's the verdict? Do we slap an Autobrand on her article or what?[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 19:33, 24 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::No, she isn't an Autobot. She grew up human and never officially joined the Autobots. She was a [[substitute Autobot]] once though. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:28, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
::::Isn't that why you guys put an Autobrand on [[Scrapper (Animated)|Scrapper's]] article to begin with? By that logic, Sari should be considered as an Autobot, if going by that reason alone.[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:32, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Didn't she call herself an Autobot in Endgame II? Either way, we call Snarl an Autobot, even though he was only ever in the substitutes, so why can't we call her one as well? Even though she was never given the actual brand, she called herself an Autobot pretty much the entire third season.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:39, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::I don't recall her calling herself an Autobot, but I could be wrong. Snarl's toy is an Autobot ''and'' he has an Autobrand on the show, so he is an Autobot. - Starfield (logged off) [[Special:Contributions/69.14.126.15|69.14.126.15]] 18:54, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
:::The line was "All Autobots, half-bots and almost-bots present and accounted for." She seems to have double-counted herself there (unless you think she was being very rude to at least one from Bumblebee, Bulkhead, Ratchet or Arcee), but that's no reason to think she was calling herself an "Autobot" :) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::::I thought "almost-bots" was referring to the protoforms. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::Didn't they go back for them? [At the very least, they must have gone back for Lugnut, who we ''see'' get left behind, and possibly Shockwave]. One possible explanation, I suppose, but they certainly weren't visible on the bridge for her to "account" for. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:23, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::This is ridiculous. She is absolutely an Autobot. If the Dinobots count as autobots then sari definitely is one!--[[Special:Contributions/24.69.64.254|24.69.64.254]] 20:59, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::The Dinobots have big Autobot sigils on their bodies. Sari does not. She also never refers to herself as an Autobot, nor does anyone else. The closest she's been is a "Replacement Autobot", but that's not a full-fledged Autobot. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:20, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Sari's Transformation Noise==<br />
<br />
Isn't it ALSO shared with the Headmaster Unit, which was the first human-built transforma-majig I think we saw in Animated continuity? --[[Special:Contributions/82.41.82.198|82.41.82.198]] 05:30, 11 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
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:Sari's body is a hybrid, but it's established in Transwarped that she is basically organic. The protoform seems to have adjusted beyond a half and half split [[User:Eire]] 26 May 23.57 (UTC)<br />
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::The impression I got was that her body is 100% carbon-based (i.e., organic) - ''but that'' that organic material was mostly arranged as technology to a nominally Cybertronian design, just carbon-based rather than (e.g.) silicon-based. A Beast Machine, basically. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
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== Sari's Jetpack ==<br />
<br />
Is it just me, or is there a goodly amount of similarity between her scooter/jetpack and the technobot Afterburner? Peach/Cream colorscheme, wheels set out from the body, designed by a supergenius.. (Okay, stretching on that last one) but similarity is there. Not a LOT, but there.<br />
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== KP captions ==<br />
<br />
Do we really need the KP captions? Is the goal to increase the creepiness factor of ''Animated''? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:25, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
:Honestly, the whole KP joke is more than played out. I'm about ready to lump it in with "Bonecrusher hates _____" and "____ superior, _____ inferior" in the "never make these fucking 'jokes' again" category. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
::Agreed. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 13:26, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
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== '''TF Animated Human Figures''' ==<br />
<br />
So I was perusing the web for info on figures and I came to this website: http://www.tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/692/. Apparently Sari, Fanzone, and Isaac are available in Japan but so far not here. I think for collecting's sake they would be cool to have but what I'd really like to see is Omega Supreme. {{unsigned|24.21.50.161|07:35, 22 July 2010 (EDT)}}<br />
:I don't think those are official. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 07:39, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::They definitely aren't — they're made by Impossible Toys. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:00, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Sari's Weaponry ==<br />
<br />
NONE of her regular upgrades (jump boosters, blades, shield, hammer) are sealed away. [http://www.formspring.me/DerrickJWyatt/q/1050691993 Source] This needs to be clarified. -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 09:57, 3 September 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Sari_Sumdac_(Animated)&diff=496338Talk:Sari Sumdac (Animated)2010-09-03T13:59:48Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Meta-category==<br />
'Tentative' meta-category? (So that one can periodically go through it and clear things out?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sandals and such==<br />
I'm debating undoing the "not a Kiss Player" addition, but can't quite justify it based on the general humor tone of the rest of the wiki, so I'll leave it to someone else. I'm also tempted to change the picture caption, as I'm pretty sure those aren't sandals. (The dark orange parts of the feet appear to be the shoe uppers, rather than a differently colored part of her socks.) However, that just seems ridiculously picky somehow. If anyone else has a good idea about this, feel free to implement it, I guess.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)<br />
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I bet she is a robot thats why she has somehow managed to gain a connection to the All-Spark and also not be completly hated by the fandom yet [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Adopted?==<br />
I'm curious... what's the source for Sari being adopted? [[User:CarrerCrytharis|CarrerCrytharis]] 06:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think it was her official bio. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
::In the promo material that Unicron.com received, Sari's bio stated that she's adopted. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Well-liked character?==<br />
I'd really like to debate that she's "well-liked" so far - I personally hate her, the person I watch the show with hates her, and every Transformers fan I talk to hates her. So unless we're of a gross minority, I think it's safe to say her appeal is not universal. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 09:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I don't hate her, therefore every fan doesn't hate her. You should try asking outside your social circle--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 13:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::By no means was I trying to say that every fan hates her! I'm just personally annoyed by her being defined as a well-liked character when all of my fellow TF fans - including myself - hold no love for her. And erm, I HAVE been asking outside my "social circle" and so far it's been nothing but "she's annoying" and "neutral." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::My own social circle also seems to find her rather amusing, so no hate from me or mine.[[User:Pacce|Pacce]] 13:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Thus far, I kinda like her. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I certainly prefer her than most of the UT kids (certainly anything is better than Kicker). -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:She has a fairly unique interaction with the Autobots compared to past humans. She and Bumblebee make decent partners in crime, so I can see how this would appeal to kids.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
: I personally like how she's the first girl in an American-made series to be '''the''' major human character, and she's a lot less annoying than any Witwiky, IMO. --[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 16:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Tara Strong is awesome. That is all. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::This is true. Good writing + awesome voice actress = character that doesn't annoy me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::See, I love Tara Strong to death, but that doesn't make me automatically love all the characters she plays. The writing is decent (slightly above G1 level writing but not as good as, say, Avatar: The Last Airbender), but I find Sari's character to be little more than Generic Perky Girl with her Deus Ex Machina Key. I enjoyed Spike as a character more because he really WAS just a human, no "omg sekrit POWARZ" to make him more "interesting." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::Spike didn't have powers? The guy and his entire family probably have an allergy to Kryptonite, and then there's the Headmaster thing. Also, calling ''Animated'''s writing slightly better than G1 gives the G1 cartoon ''way'' to much credit.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::Well, Spike and the other Witwickys have 80s Cartoon Disease - just look at the other Hasbro show from the same time period, GI Joe. They were all "human" in the same way. But Spike never whipped out his wallet and used it to revive Optimus Prime. And frankly, I find a lot of the plot devices in TF:CHINS just as laughable as G1, only now with uglier art and more obnoxious humans. In fact, that's WHY I find it watchable - the writing is so similar to G1's lulzy improbability that I enjoy it immensely, or at least enough to ignore the terrible art. Anyway, I'm running speedily away from my point. That is, I and every other TF fan I've talked to absolutely despise Sari. Calling her "well liked, more so than usual" on her Wiki page Does Not Compute for me. It's fine to call her a "generally liked character" or even just "a popular human character," but using the turn of phrase that's there now makes it seem like every TF fan everywhere absolutely adores her. <br />
<br />
::::::Hell, at this point I'd even take Kicker. At least his art style doesn't hurt my eyes. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 01:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Geez, give the art style a break already! People bitching about the art style reminds me of when [[wikipedia: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker|Zelda: Windwaker]] first came out for the Gamecube. People dismissed the game as "kiddie" just because of the cell-shading style, but it was actually a very enjoyable game, just as challenging as any other in the Zelda series. Actually, Sari reminds me very much of Tetra in that game.<br />
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:::::::Just give it a chance. I actually prefer the stylized art over the overly-detailed 80's comic look of G1. Plus, is Sari having her key really all that different than how the All Spark was used in the [[Transformers (2007)|Movie]]? Both are miraculous objects that completely ignore all known laws of physics and can bring robots to life/fix said robots in about 3 seconds flat. At least in a cartoon that's somewhat more acceptable.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 01:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I've been giving it as much of a chance as I can. And no, sorry - Wind Waker at least had a consistent art style (which I happen to like). TF:CHINS is all over the place, and I have screencaps of Sari LOOKING COOL. Er, that is to say, looking so poorly drawn that it's laughable. I mean, I mostly like TF:CHINS, I really do. And the "but the movie did it!" excuse doesn't quite fly in this case, because the movie at least had the excuse of being directed by Michael Bay. Oh, and the movie didn't use it EVERY HALF HOUR. 'OHAI, it's a new episode, time for Sari to use her damn key for a totally random reason that in no way correlates to the way she used it last episode.' ANYWAY, POINT STILL BEING: I don't like her! She is annoying. All others that I have spoken to share this opinion. It is not reasonable to DEFINE her as "well liked, more so than usual." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::On this page, you are the only voice against. If some more people speak up here with a negative opinion of her (preferably, people who are regular editors on this wiki), we'll most likely change the page. [[User:JW|JW]] 03:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Well, that's frustrating. The only TF fans that count are the ones that edit this Wiki? Lamesauce. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 05:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::No, but we're confident that fans who have contributed to this wiki aren't cranks shoutign their opinions at the top of their lungs and claiming everyone else agrees with them. The sort of person that might, say, show up on the wiki and make no edits except one declaring that the entire fandom agrees with him, and then (upon discovering that many peopel ehre do not) accuse the regulars here of being out of step with transfandom.<br />
:::::::::::I'm not accusing you of this- the problem is that the vrank imposing his opinion on others and someone like yourself- actually (presumably) ''exressing'' the opinion of the majority-- are functionally impossible to distinguish in terms of behavior- they both show up out of the blue ont he wiki and make the same edits and have the same argument. So we have to say "Gee, if ''everyone'' thinks this, do most of us think this?" And if the answer's no, we'll usually revert sweeping statements. It's possible that we might be ''wrong'' and actually are out of step with transfandom... but it's the best system we have to guard against minority bias. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::If you're not accusing me of this, why would you bring it up at all? I never implied that I was expressing the opinion of any majority anywhere, merely another facet of TF fandom. Please, feel free to re-read my comments. I want her popularity to be downplayed a little because I feel that it's unjustifiably overblown in the article. Also note that I have made no edits at all for good reason; I would much rather talk about this and hope a more experienced editor can see reason and accommodate both views. I hardly think me signing up for the wiki to pop onto the talk page and debate a single line in the "Notes" section of one character qualifies me as an OMG SABOTEUR. (That's Jazz. lulz.) I'm actually trying to be as least troll-like as possible here, but it's hard when I'm surrounded by people who are obviously huge fans of the character. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Well we can't very well quantify "all others you have spoken to," no?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 05:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Has anyone actually quantified the "reasonably well-liked" comment, either? The fandom is rather sprawled these days, across multiple forums, so I would assume that there's probably no shortage of negative opinion about Sari out there. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I'd quantify it as "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's my opinion of Sari- she's okay-- and as kid-avatar character go she's astonishingly ''non''-annoying. So 'reasonably well liked.'-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I feel justified in discounting the opinion of anyone who consistently refers to Animated as "TF:CHINS." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::So because I use a comical nickname for the show, I'm automatically discounted? Wow. I guess I've been incredibly lucky, avoiding this elitist branch of TF-fandom thus far. It looks like Michael is the only one here who is even willing to consider that there are TF fans that dislike this character. I'm a long-time lurker here and love the wiki, but this is just terrible. I'm not asking for her page to say EVERYONE HATES SARI, SHE SUCKS - I'm just asking that it not read like we all fall over at her feet. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 06:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::But people who refer to Hillary Clinton by derisive nicknames in the course of conversation about her can reasonably be construed to have a negative bias against her. Thus casting doubt on your unbiased observation that everyone hates Sari.<br />
:::::::::::::::Besides, you probably only hate her because she's a Paki. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::::LOLWHUT? I hate her for the reasons previously stated. Her race is a non-issue for me. And I really don't consider TF:CHINS to be a 'derisive' nickname, I consider it amusing and fitting for the CHIN-CENTRIC art. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 08:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Derik was only kidding about the race thing. I think. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::Leaving aside the question of why the opinion of a person who dislikes Animated's art style and uses a silly nickname while expressing said dislike should be automatically discounted, what I was trying to get at was this: How was the "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual" conclusion arrived at in the first place? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::::::The "arglebarglebargleonlyrobotsoncybertron" folks have been conspicuously well-behaved of late.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 06:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Right. So lets go back to the UT kids: Carlos with his racial stereotypes, Bud with his inability to stay focused on anything for more than two seconds, and Kicker, who was ''physically abusive toward the Autobots''. Sure, those are the types of characters that I want representing my species. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 02:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Don't forget Fred's inability to go five minutes without junk food. Also, Chip Chase is superhuman. The man is immune to acid rain that brought Autobots to their knees and can tear an 5¼" floppy disc in hald with his bear hands.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 02:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Don't forget that if this show was Japanese, Sari would be making out with Bumblebee on a regular basis and the point of view would be consistently at a below-skirt level. Personally, I love Sari. Best human character in a TF series, as far as I'm concerned. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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Tyring to stay a bit on point here: The line "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual." <br />
<br />
Now from what I've seen, it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character. The general reaction to the character I've observed doesn't seem like anything particularly worth noting in her article. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:How about we modify it to say that she is one of the few human characters who have not caused a section of the Transformers fandom to declare holy war upon the human race in the Transformers fiction? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Has ''anyone'' here besides [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] voiced an opinion that contradicts "reasonably well liked, more so than usual"? If people don't like her deus ex machina key, that might make a valid separate point, but that's separate from liking her herself. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::I think that not even Combobreaker has voiced an opinion contrary to the statement. He doesn't like her, and the people he's talked to (before coming here) don't like her. That doesn't make the statement inaccurate, because it is describing a generalized opinion of hundreds of active fans. Apparently all the editors paying attention to this page feel that in ''their'' observations of other fans, Sari seems to have been better received than most humans. The phrasing "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" doesn't even remotely mean "all the fans think she's great". It means exactly what it says -- she is liked more than most human characters, ie. the majority of the fandom does not despise her. As a rule of thumb, Transformers fans (treated as a homogeneous group) hate human sidekicks. There are certainly pockets of the fandom that hate Sari. But she is, on average, *not* hated. That is definitely worthy of note. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Okay, but where are we pulling this "on average?" It can't be reasonably quantified any more than my own personal experiences with TF fans. That is all I have been trying to get across here. There's no link to any outside polls, discussions, or articles that talk about how popular she is with fans. I find the "well liked, more so than usual" statement to be a little too all-encompassing for my tastes. How about we just say she's "generally popular" or "mostly liked" instead? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::8 or nine people in this discussion disagree with you, and none agree. I'd call Sari pretty well liked unless the 8 or 9 of us are secretly the same guy. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 03:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::GAH, again with using this wiki's talk page to justify what's on the wiki! Oh god, the wikiality is suffocating me. Look, in wikis, you are supposed to cite references. Just because the people that hang out on a character's talk page are ga-ga over said character does NOT mean that the rest of the fandom shares the same opinion. I AM NOT TRYING TO MOVE MOUNTAINS HERE. Please re-read my comment. I want her to just be noted as being "generally popular" or "mostly liked!" How horrible of me! I'm corrupting the TF fandom! Jeez. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 03:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Dude, you're not kidding when you say you're skilled at stirring up drama! As much as I do appreciate Sari as a character, you've made it QUITE clear that not everone shares that opinion. Maybe something along the lines of "mostly well-liked" would be a reasonable alternative, if everyone else agrees.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 03:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yeah, what's really crazy is I'm not even TRYING to stir up drama. At this point I'm convinced that almost everyone here is completely unwilling to acknowledge differing opinions in fandom - I really like your compromise and think that it would fit the real-world reception of her character. (After all, others aside from me have noted in these comments that she is not universally liked!) However, it just seems like most people responding to me are overly hostile because I'm new and have a different opinion. I'm getting called names for wanting a wiki article to be slightly edited? WTF? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I say leave it the way it is. We shouldn't change the entry just because one loudmouth says we should. Combobreaker, you say we aren't showing any polls or articles saying she is well liked. Well... can you show us any polls or articles saying that she ISN'T well liked? [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Again, point missed. The way she's referred to in this article makes it seem as though every TF fan everywhere loves her. They don't, and people other than me have said as much on this talk page. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::We're also supposed to find consensus. We think we ''have''. If you want to argue our consensus is not representative maybe ''you'' should be citing references to support ''your'' point. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I am so frustrated by this sort of attitude on any wiki. Just because you are the majority here does not make you the majority everywhere else. I am here representing a differing opinion, which, as NEITHER are easily citable I think BOTH are equally valid. Your personal experience dictates that Sari is popular. Fine, that's awesome. My own personal experience - maybe because I talk almost exclusively to G1 fans - says that she's despised. In this situation I think it's perfectly reasonable to just turn the love on her wiki down a notch, because right now it's going to 11. I'd like to at least see it backed off to an 8. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::You offer no evidence for your position other than anecdotes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::Same for the statement that currently stands. Just asking it to be toned down a bit. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Do you really think that "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" is an 11?<br />
::::::::::Have you considered taking a break from this discussion (which, after all, does not need to be decided today), and [[Special:Contributions/Combobreaker|spending some time contributing elsewhere in the wiki]]? I'm sure you have a great deal to offer toward making this wiki a better and more informative document, so you shouldn't let this one trivia point occupy all your time. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:05, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
::::::::::: Please read the comments on this page from other people. KilMichaelMcC has said "it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character" and Derik says she is "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's less general than what is there now.<br />
:::::::::::Oh, and do me a favor and Google "Sari Sumdac begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting" and tell me what the first result says about her. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::PS: I really want to contribute to this wiki, but believe it or not, I thought I'd start with something small. I had no idea I'd start such a mess just by wanting a character's unquantified popularity slightly edited. That's why I stuck to the talk page instead of editing it myself - didn't want to just jump into editing the wiki itself and piss people off. Somehow managed to do that anyway, but... oh well. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Don't worry too much about it, dude. Contributions will be judged on their own merits. This issue seems to have been solved to your satisfaction with Repowers'a edit; I don't think anyone will object to you continuing to contribute. If they do, they'll let you know what and why at the time. /:) --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 20:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
I am still uncertain that fandom reaction to Sari is particularly noteworthy at all. Is it really any different from, say, the reaction to the Cybertron kids? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think I love you, man, you have been nothing but reasonable and moderate here. I would comment here but I never got into Cybertron, so I'm a little sketchy on the human characters. Suffice it to say that I think trying to define a new character as being universally liked in the Transformers fandom is quite a feat. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::It does NOT say that she is universally well liked by ANY stretch of the imagination! It says she is "reasonably well-liked, more so than usual," basically meaning that many fans like her BETTER than most other human characters, not that we think she's the mesiah or something. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Repowers's edit==<br />
Well done, Repowers. I can comfortably live with that. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Awesome, that's all I wanted. I'm happy now, and reasonably amused that I managed to somehow spawn a talk thread that ended up longer than the article itself. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Not human?==<br />
That's a whoooole big block of text discussing what is pretty much entirely fanwank. Do we really need this?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hmn, it is a bit overlong, actually. Still, I think ''something'' from it needs noting, because Tara Strong's interview and the events of "Megatron Rising" make it clear that there's ''SOMETHING'' unusual about Sari. We could just chop back on the random theories as to what she is, which are all fan-cooked-up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::That's a reason I put in the whole "counterpoints" thing. Reminding them that canon is against them, so stop the fanwanking. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::3 months ago I guessed Sari was a robot and posted it in this discussion article if this turns out to be true I totally called it. [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Things that don't exist==<br />
Seeing how she, legally, doesn't exist, should she get added to that category? Or is that reserved for things that um...in-fictionally-actually? don't exist?[[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] 21:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:It can all be answered with one question: does she think? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 22:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::I'm... Not sure if that question can be answered.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 22:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::We should blank this whole article. There is no information on a 'Sari Sumdac'. (Maybe write that up at the very top and then require page-ing down like 5 times to get at the content, as Chip suggested). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::I tried it to see what it would look like, and I think it works. I imagine we'll change it back if her legal status changes later on. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 23:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::So... are we using the joke or not, now? I think it was a work of genius. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::"Work of genius" or not... when the joke gets in the way of getting information in this wiki, I think it becomes a bad thing. I'm glad the joke is gone, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 06:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::I think it's best to leave the joke at including her in the category, it's a funny way to end the article without confusing people who haven't been watching Animated. [[User:(Undecided)|(Undecided)]] 04:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Sari is a Human from the Animated franchise==<br />
<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]].''<br />
<br />
But is she Really? <br />
I know we don't want fan theories, but how about a little bit of a joke. I mean, I've often seen these bits written amusingly on our Wiki.<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]]. Probably. Or she could be a Robot. or maybe a [[Tentakil_%28Energon%29|Squid-Creature]]. We're not all that sure right now to be honest....''<br />
[[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 18:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds pretty good to me. Made me chuckle. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::One vote for... none against... I think I will try the change. If anyone spots it, and thinks it is a bad idea, then feel free to change it back to normal, and join the "debate" here... It can easily be changed back (the original is still here, and all I've done is added something to the end). [[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 12:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Personaly, I think the little 'squid creature' thing is kinda funny, and I vote for temproarily adding it to the article. At least until we learn she's really a human/[[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cyborg]] / robotic android/ squid thing/ *master/ gobot-in-disquise/ whatever she ends up being (my vote's for geneticly altered clone). [[User:AutobotFreak643|AutobotFreak643]] 02:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Incoming spoiler alert==<br />
No, this isn't revealing what Sari actually is. It is a warning about how [[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]] is going to air in Dubai tomorrow, and that it is very likely that the truth about Sari will be revealed then. I strongly suggest that we semi-protect this article to prevent it from becoming too spoilerific (word?) and preserve the dignity of this Wiki. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Too bloody right! I've been away for a couple of days and appear to have missed the big furor over the Animated spoilers (which were annoying the chocolate-coated fudge out of me), but I seem to have been lucky enough to avoid anything major thus far, and want to keep it that way! = [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::And though semi-protect would allow others to still edit it, it would stop new and unregistered users, the most likely culprits, from adding things. Theoretically, we might have to keep it semi-protected until A Bridge Too Close actually airs. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:We're starting to get spoilers for other stuff already, and they're big ones. Someone needs to lock this page now, or we are in for a world of reverts. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
I think we should replace the toppic since A, it isn't the model used in the cartoon, and B, we now have it at the bottom. {{unsigned|96.227.184.235}}<br />
:Please sign your posts. Take a better look; the two pics are different. [[User:JW|JW]] 02:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
Whoops, sorry. -Anonymous<br />
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<br />
== "Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?" ==<br />
From the new piece of Trivia, "In the first part of "Transform And Roll Out!", Sari's father is seen constructing what appears to be a mechanical arm, before noticing Megatron falling from the sky. Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?", I've watched the clip and don't find it very likely. It looks more like an average robotic arm (one that looks similar to another hanging from Isaac's ceiling).<br />
<br />
Opinions? ([[User:Tribor|Tribor]] 06:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC))<br />
<br />
:Yeah, even aside from the unlikelihood that Isaac was working on Sari at that point in time, that arm is much too big to be Sari's. -- [[User:Greenygal|Greenygal]] 10:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: I'm not sure about the arm, but in the intro special, they also happened to be working on nanobots. Even going through the whole spiel on fusing human and machine. Guess what Sari appears to be. [[User:Xevon|Xevon]] 06:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC) <br />
::And we saw how well THAT experiment worked. If he couldn't get down that process after Sari already existed, how could he have managed it to create her?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 06:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:*There might have been a big difference between the technology and resources used to create Sari and the technology and resources that they were planning to use in mass production or for public use. Furthermore, if a lot of alien technology(such as technology that is far more advanced than their current technology) was used to make Sari, it could have become too conspicuous, especially if there was no proper introduction for the technology. This would mean that people such as the military or other corporations might start poking their fingers into Sumdac's source of inspiration. There is also the possibility that Sumdac had plucked spare parts right off Megatron, such as rare metals(especially those not readily found on earth) to make Sari, hence he couldn't make another attempt. Another possibility is that Sari is Sumdac's greatest life work, in whom he was pouring all his resources, skills and time and all his other creations are just scraps, spares and extras that he made so that he could support Sari in both her construction and her development. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
<br />
:*None of that really touches on whether the arm in TaRO Pt. 1 was Sari's or not, which was the original question here. *While that's some nice mental exercise, it's a lot of far-reaching speculation without much to back it up.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 15:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC) </ol> It will all be speculation until the series itself provides more information. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
<br />
:And specualtion is for messageboards, not this wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== quote ==<br />
Personally I think the "If you think I'm gonna let you geaeheads out of my sight, you're nuts, and I don't mean the kind that come with bolts" quote better than the current one because she said it, and it just suits her personality more, but then that's just my opinion [[User:Chromia|Chromia]] 16:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Transformersanimated.com is not affiliated with Hasbro, Cartoon network, or ''anyone'' official. ==<br />
It is a ''fansite''. It states so directly on the site's footer. What's more, they are a fansite that, like many of them, has far less stringent requirements for inclusion than this wiki. Just as you would not put something from TFW2005, The Allspark, or TFormers.com up here without first checking if they got it from an official source rather than a leak, apply that reasoning to Transformersanimated.com's news. Don't let the domain name fool you.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 13:59, 4 January 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
:Given Hasbro went after domain names based upon their trademarks i the late 90s and early 2000s, I'm surprised they didn't go after this site. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:36, 14 March 2009 (EDT) <br />
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== New Caption Suggestion for Super-Sari ==<br />
I humbly suggest, for the judgment of the council, that the caption of the picture of "Super-" or "Robo-" Sari be changed from it's current state, "Masterforce!" to the much awesomer (you read that right) "It's Morphin' Time!" After careful study and extensive meditation, I have reached the conclusion that this would be met with more sniggers from any readers. What say you?<br />
--[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 07:02, 23 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
As the Joker would say, "If you have to explain the joke, THEN THERE IS NO JOKE!"<br />
[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:30, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Sari and fans ==<br />
We're into the third season, and this is just kind of hanging here like a vestigial organ. It's not trivia, it's very speculatey, and now that more of her origin has been revealed it's quite a bit redundant.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 20:17, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Now that her origin is (mostly) revealed, the "Things that don't exist" category isn't really funny anymore. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:21, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
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== Age? ==<br />
<br />
Has it been confirmed yet what teenage robo-Sari's age is? I know in Human error pt 1, when Sumdac gave her the scooter, she said, "Thanks dad, but I was hoping for something with four wheels," implying that she is sixteen-ish, but she came across more as a 13-ish year old to me. Anyone have an answer? -[[User:JesWalHok|JesWalHok]] 17:35, 18 April 2009 (EDT)JesWalHok<br />
:Seems fairly unlikely to be confirmed, as there's no real way to figure out how "old" someone who just spontaneously grew up is with any precision.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:16, 18 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
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Well its apperent that she believes in Santa Clause something a normal 8-year-old would beleive in. So technicaly she is mentaly at age 8. D.J.Sky 4-21-09 6:38<br />
<br />
I agree with ... D.J.Sky Is It? I think she is taking advantage of her age just to get a car.--E-Bot April 21 2009.<br />
:I take offense to that...besides, doesn't Prowl prove that Santa was a Transformer, anyway?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:06, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I think that was just a gag the writers came up with. And by the way, he was implying that Santa has clones.--E-Bot April 22 2009<br />
<br />
== Female Transformer? ==<br />
<br />
Since Sari is a Cybertronian lifeform with (presumably) a spark and circuits, couldn't she be considered a female Transformer now? It could be that her human form is her alt mode, kind of like Blackarachnia and Waspinator's bug modes. Should we add her to the ranks?--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 14:12, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Yes! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:33, 7 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
*I agree. Sari's basically an Autobot with an organic mode. You can not dispute that, no matter how hard you try.[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 13:01, 17 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
**So...what's the verdict? Do we slap an Autobrand on her article or what?[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 19:33, 24 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::No, she isn't an Autobot. She grew up human and never officially joined the Autobots. She was a [[substitute Autobot]] once though. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:28, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
::::Isn't that why you guys put an Autobrand on [[Scrapper (Animated)|Scrapper's]] article to begin with? By that logic, Sari should be considered as an Autobot, if going by that reason alone.[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:32, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Didn't she call herself an Autobot in Endgame II? Either way, we call Snarl an Autobot, even though he was only ever in the substitutes, so why can't we call her one as well? Even though she was never given the actual brand, she called herself an Autobot pretty much the entire third season.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:39, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::I don't recall her calling herself an Autobot, but I could be wrong. Snarl's toy is an Autobot ''and'' he has an Autobrand on the show, so he is an Autobot. - Starfield (logged off) [[Special:Contributions/69.14.126.15|69.14.126.15]] 18:54, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
:::The line was "All Autobots, half-bots and almost-bots present and accounted for." She seems to have double-counted herself there (unless you think she was being very rude to at least one from Bumblebee, Bulkhead, Ratchet or Arcee), but that's no reason to think she was calling herself an "Autobot" :) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::::I thought "almost-bots" was referring to the protoforms. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::Didn't they go back for them? [At the very least, they must have gone back for Lugnut, who we ''see'' get left behind, and possibly Shockwave]. One possible explanation, I suppose, but they certainly weren't visible on the bridge for her to "account" for. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:23, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::This is ridiculous. She is absolutely an Autobot. If the Dinobots count as autobots then sari definitely is one!--[[Special:Contributions/24.69.64.254|24.69.64.254]] 20:59, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::The Dinobots have big Autobot sigils on their bodies. Sari does not. She also never refers to herself as an Autobot, nor does anyone else. The closest she's been is a "Replacement Autobot", but that's not a full-fledged Autobot. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:20, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Sari's Transformation Noise==<br />
<br />
Isn't it ALSO shared with the Headmaster Unit, which was the first human-built transforma-majig I think we saw in Animated continuity? --[[Special:Contributions/82.41.82.198|82.41.82.198]] 05:30, 11 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Sari's body is a hybrid, but it's established in Transwarped that she is basically organic. The protoform seems to have adjusted beyond a half and half split [[User:Eire]] 26 May 23.57 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The impression I got was that her body is 100% carbon-based (i.e., organic) - ''but that'' that organic material was mostly arranged as technology to a nominally Cybertronian design, just carbon-based rather than (e.g.) silicon-based. A Beast Machine, basically. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
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== Sari's Jetpack ==<br />
<br />
Is it just me, or is there a goodly amount of similarity between her scooter/jetpack and the technobot Afterburner? Peach/Cream colorscheme, wheels set out from the body, designed by a supergenius.. (Okay, stretching on that last one) but similarity is there. Not a LOT, but there.<br />
<br />
== KP captions ==<br />
<br />
Do we really need the KP captions? Is the goal to increase the creepiness factor of ''Animated''? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:25, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
:Honestly, the whole KP joke is more than played out. I'm about ready to lump it in with "Bonecrusher hates _____" and "____ superior, _____ inferior" in the "never make these fucking 'jokes' again" category. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
::Agreed. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 13:26, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
== '''TF Animated Human Figures''' ==<br />
<br />
So I was perusing the web for info on figures and I came to this website: http://www.tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/692/. Apparently Sari, Fanzone, and Isaac are available in Japan but so far not here. I think for collecting's sake they would be cool to have but what I'd really like to see is Omega Supreme. {{unsigned|24.21.50.161|07:35, 22 July 2010 (EDT)}}<br />
:I don't think those are official. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 07:39, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::They definitely aren't — they're made by Impossible Toys. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:00, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Sari's Weaponry ==<br />
<br />
NONE of her regular upgrades (jump boosters, blades, shield, hammer) are sealed away. [http://www.formspring.me/DerrickJWyatt/q/1050691993 Source] This needs to be clarified. -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 09:57, 3 September 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Sari_Sumdac_(Animated)&diff=496337Talk:Sari Sumdac (Animated)2010-09-03T13:57:18Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Meta-category==<br />
'Tentative' meta-category? (So that one can periodically go through it and clear things out?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Sandals and such==<br />
I'm debating undoing the "not a Kiss Player" addition, but can't quite justify it based on the general humor tone of the rest of the wiki, so I'll leave it to someone else. I'm also tempted to change the picture caption, as I'm pretty sure those aren't sandals. (The dark orange parts of the feet appear to be the shoe uppers, rather than a differently colored part of her socks.) However, that just seems ridiculously picky somehow. If anyone else has a good idea about this, feel free to implement it, I guess.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I bet she is a robot thats why she has somehow managed to gain a connection to the All-Spark and also not be completly hated by the fandom yet [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Adopted?==<br />
I'm curious... what's the source for Sari being adopted? [[User:CarrerCrytharis|CarrerCrytharis]] 06:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think it was her official bio. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
::In the promo material that Unicron.com received, Sari's bio stated that she's adopted. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Well-liked character?==<br />
I'd really like to debate that she's "well-liked" so far - I personally hate her, the person I watch the show with hates her, and every Transformers fan I talk to hates her. So unless we're of a gross minority, I think it's safe to say her appeal is not universal. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 09:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I don't hate her, therefore every fan doesn't hate her. You should try asking outside your social circle--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 13:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::By no means was I trying to say that every fan hates her! I'm just personally annoyed by her being defined as a well-liked character when all of my fellow TF fans - including myself - hold no love for her. And erm, I HAVE been asking outside my "social circle" and so far it's been nothing but "she's annoying" and "neutral." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::My own social circle also seems to find her rather amusing, so no hate from me or mine.[[User:Pacce|Pacce]] 13:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Thus far, I kinda like her. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I certainly prefer her than most of the UT kids (certainly anything is better than Kicker). -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:She has a fairly unique interaction with the Autobots compared to past humans. She and Bumblebee make decent partners in crime, so I can see how this would appeal to kids.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
: I personally like how she's the first girl in an American-made series to be '''the''' major human character, and she's a lot less annoying than any Witwiky, IMO. --[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 16:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Tara Strong is awesome. That is all. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::This is true. Good writing + awesome voice actress = character that doesn't annoy me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::See, I love Tara Strong to death, but that doesn't make me automatically love all the characters she plays. The writing is decent (slightly above G1 level writing but not as good as, say, Avatar: The Last Airbender), but I find Sari's character to be little more than Generic Perky Girl with her Deus Ex Machina Key. I enjoyed Spike as a character more because he really WAS just a human, no "omg sekrit POWARZ" to make him more "interesting." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::Spike didn't have powers? The guy and his entire family probably have an allergy to Kryptonite, and then there's the Headmaster thing. Also, calling ''Animated'''s writing slightly better than G1 gives the G1 cartoon ''way'' to much credit.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 00:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::Well, Spike and the other Witwickys have 80s Cartoon Disease - just look at the other Hasbro show from the same time period, GI Joe. They were all "human" in the same way. But Spike never whipped out his wallet and used it to revive Optimus Prime. And frankly, I find a lot of the plot devices in TF:CHINS just as laughable as G1, only now with uglier art and more obnoxious humans. In fact, that's WHY I find it watchable - the writing is so similar to G1's lulzy improbability that I enjoy it immensely, or at least enough to ignore the terrible art. Anyway, I'm running speedily away from my point. That is, I and every other TF fan I've talked to absolutely despise Sari. Calling her "well liked, more so than usual" on her Wiki page Does Not Compute for me. It's fine to call her a "generally liked character" or even just "a popular human character," but using the turn of phrase that's there now makes it seem like every TF fan everywhere absolutely adores her. <br />
<br />
::::::Hell, at this point I'd even take Kicker. At least his art style doesn't hurt my eyes. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 01:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Geez, give the art style a break already! People bitching about the art style reminds me of when [[wikipedia: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker|Zelda: Windwaker]] first came out for the Gamecube. People dismissed the game as "kiddie" just because of the cell-shading style, but it was actually a very enjoyable game, just as challenging as any other in the Zelda series. Actually, Sari reminds me very much of Tetra in that game.<br />
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:::::::Just give it a chance. I actually prefer the stylized art over the overly-detailed 80's comic look of G1. Plus, is Sari having her key really all that different than how the All Spark was used in the [[Transformers (2007)|Movie]]? Both are miraculous objects that completely ignore all known laws of physics and can bring robots to life/fix said robots in about 3 seconds flat. At least in a cartoon that's somewhat more acceptable.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 01:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I've been giving it as much of a chance as I can. And no, sorry - Wind Waker at least had a consistent art style (which I happen to like). TF:CHINS is all over the place, and I have screencaps of Sari LOOKING COOL. Er, that is to say, looking so poorly drawn that it's laughable. I mean, I mostly like TF:CHINS, I really do. And the "but the movie did it!" excuse doesn't quite fly in this case, because the movie at least had the excuse of being directed by Michael Bay. Oh, and the movie didn't use it EVERY HALF HOUR. 'OHAI, it's a new episode, time for Sari to use her damn key for a totally random reason that in no way correlates to the way she used it last episode.' ANYWAY, POINT STILL BEING: I don't like her! She is annoying. All others that I have spoken to share this opinion. It is not reasonable to DEFINE her as "well liked, more so than usual." [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::On this page, you are the only voice against. If some more people speak up here with a negative opinion of her (preferably, people who are regular editors on this wiki), we'll most likely change the page. [[User:JW|JW]] 03:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Well, that's frustrating. The only TF fans that count are the ones that edit this Wiki? Lamesauce. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 05:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::No, but we're confident that fans who have contributed to this wiki aren't cranks shoutign their opinions at the top of their lungs and claiming everyone else agrees with them. The sort of person that might, say, show up on the wiki and make no edits except one declaring that the entire fandom agrees with him, and then (upon discovering that many peopel ehre do not) accuse the regulars here of being out of step with transfandom.<br />
:::::::::::I'm not accusing you of this- the problem is that the vrank imposing his opinion on others and someone like yourself- actually (presumably) ''exressing'' the opinion of the majority-- are functionally impossible to distinguish in terms of behavior- they both show up out of the blue ont he wiki and make the same edits and have the same argument. So we have to say "Gee, if ''everyone'' thinks this, do most of us think this?" And if the answer's no, we'll usually revert sweeping statements. It's possible that we might be ''wrong'' and actually are out of step with transfandom... but it's the best system we have to guard against minority bias. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::If you're not accusing me of this, why would you bring it up at all? I never implied that I was expressing the opinion of any majority anywhere, merely another facet of TF fandom. Please, feel free to re-read my comments. I want her popularity to be downplayed a little because I feel that it's unjustifiably overblown in the article. Also note that I have made no edits at all for good reason; I would much rather talk about this and hope a more experienced editor can see reason and accommodate both views. I hardly think me signing up for the wiki to pop onto the talk page and debate a single line in the "Notes" section of one character qualifies me as an OMG SABOTEUR. (That's Jazz. lulz.) I'm actually trying to be as least troll-like as possible here, but it's hard when I'm surrounded by people who are obviously huge fans of the character. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::Well we can't very well quantify "all others you have spoken to," no?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 05:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Has anyone actually quantified the "reasonably well-liked" comment, either? The fandom is rather sprawled these days, across multiple forums, so I would assume that there's probably no shortage of negative opinion about Sari out there. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I'd quantify it as "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's my opinion of Sari- she's okay-- and as kid-avatar character go she's astonishingly ''non''-annoying. So 'reasonably well liked.'-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::I feel justified in discounting the opinion of anyone who consistently refers to Animated as "TF:CHINS." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::So because I use a comical nickname for the show, I'm automatically discounted? Wow. I guess I've been incredibly lucky, avoiding this elitist branch of TF-fandom thus far. It looks like Michael is the only one here who is even willing to consider that there are TF fans that dislike this character. I'm a long-time lurker here and love the wiki, but this is just terrible. I'm not asking for her page to say EVERYONE HATES SARI, SHE SUCKS - I'm just asking that it not read like we all fall over at her feet. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 06:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::But people who refer to Hillary Clinton by derisive nicknames in the course of conversation about her can reasonably be construed to have a negative bias against her. Thus casting doubt on your unbiased observation that everyone hates Sari.<br />
:::::::::::::::Besides, you probably only hate her because she's a Paki. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::::LOLWHUT? I hate her for the reasons previously stated. Her race is a non-issue for me. And I really don't consider TF:CHINS to be a 'derisive' nickname, I consider it amusing and fitting for the CHIN-CENTRIC art. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 08:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Derik was only kidding about the race thing. I think. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::::Leaving aside the question of why the opinion of a person who dislikes Animated's art style and uses a silly nickname while expressing said dislike should be automatically discounted, what I was trying to get at was this: How was the "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual" conclusion arrived at in the first place? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::::::The "arglebarglebargleonlyrobotsoncybertron" folks have been conspicuously well-behaved of late.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 06:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Right. So lets go back to the UT kids: Carlos with his racial stereotypes, Bud with his inability to stay focused on anything for more than two seconds, and Kicker, who was ''physically abusive toward the Autobots''. Sure, those are the types of characters that I want representing my species. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 02:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Don't forget Fred's inability to go five minutes without junk food. Also, Chip Chase is superhuman. The man is immune to acid rain that brought Autobots to their knees and can tear an 5¼" floppy disc in hald with his bear hands.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 02:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::Don't forget that if this show was Japanese, Sari would be making out with Bumblebee on a regular basis and the point of view would be consistently at a below-skirt level. Personally, I love Sari. Best human character in a TF series, as far as I'm concerned. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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Tyring to stay a bit on point here: The line "Sari has been reasonably well liked, more so then usual." <br />
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Now from what I've seen, it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character. The general reaction to the character I've observed doesn't seem like anything particularly worth noting in her article. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 08:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:How about we modify it to say that she is one of the few human characters who have not caused a section of the Transformers fandom to declare holy war upon the human race in the Transformers fiction? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::Has ''anyone'' here besides [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] voiced an opinion that contradicts "reasonably well liked, more so than usual"? If people don't like her deus ex machina key, that might make a valid separate point, but that's separate from liking her herself. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::I think that not even Combobreaker has voiced an opinion contrary to the statement. He doesn't like her, and the people he's talked to (before coming here) don't like her. That doesn't make the statement inaccurate, because it is describing a generalized opinion of hundreds of active fans. Apparently all the editors paying attention to this page feel that in ''their'' observations of other fans, Sari seems to have been better received than most humans. The phrasing "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" doesn't even remotely mean "all the fans think she's great". It means exactly what it says -- she is liked more than most human characters, ie. the majority of the fandom does not despise her. As a rule of thumb, Transformers fans (treated as a homogeneous group) hate human sidekicks. There are certainly pockets of the fandom that hate Sari. But she is, on average, *not* hated. That is definitely worthy of note. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Okay, but where are we pulling this "on average?" It can't be reasonably quantified any more than my own personal experiences with TF fans. That is all I have been trying to get across here. There's no link to any outside polls, discussions, or articles that talk about how popular she is with fans. I find the "well liked, more so than usual" statement to be a little too all-encompassing for my tastes. How about we just say she's "generally popular" or "mostly liked" instead? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 02:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::8 or nine people in this discussion disagree with you, and none agree. I'd call Sari pretty well liked unless the 8 or 9 of us are secretly the same guy. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 03:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::GAH, again with using this wiki's talk page to justify what's on the wiki! Oh god, the wikiality is suffocating me. Look, in wikis, you are supposed to cite references. Just because the people that hang out on a character's talk page are ga-ga over said character does NOT mean that the rest of the fandom shares the same opinion. I AM NOT TRYING TO MOVE MOUNTAINS HERE. Please re-read my comment. I want her to just be noted as being "generally popular" or "mostly liked!" How horrible of me! I'm corrupting the TF fandom! Jeez. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 03:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Dude, you're not kidding when you say you're skilled at stirring up drama! As much as I do appreciate Sari as a character, you've made it QUITE clear that not everone shares that opinion. Maybe something along the lines of "mostly well-liked" would be a reasonable alternative, if everyone else agrees.--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 03:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Yeah, what's really crazy is I'm not even TRYING to stir up drama. At this point I'm convinced that almost everyone here is completely unwilling to acknowledge differing opinions in fandom - I really like your compromise and think that it would fit the real-world reception of her character. (After all, others aside from me have noted in these comments that she is not universally liked!) However, it just seems like most people responding to me are overly hostile because I'm new and have a different opinion. I'm getting called names for wanting a wiki article to be slightly edited? WTF? [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::I say leave it the way it is. We shouldn't change the entry just because one loudmouth says we should. Combobreaker, you say we aren't showing any polls or articles saying she is well liked. Well... can you show us any polls or articles saying that she ISN'T well liked? [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::Again, point missed. The way she's referred to in this article makes it seem as though every TF fan everywhere loves her. They don't, and people other than me have said as much on this talk page. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::We're also supposed to find consensus. We think we ''have''. If you want to argue our consensus is not representative maybe ''you'' should be citing references to support ''your'' point. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::I am so frustrated by this sort of attitude on any wiki. Just because you are the majority here does not make you the majority everywhere else. I am here representing a differing opinion, which, as NEITHER are easily citable I think BOTH are equally valid. Your personal experience dictates that Sari is popular. Fine, that's awesome. My own personal experience - maybe because I talk almost exclusively to G1 fans - says that she's despised. In this situation I think it's perfectly reasonable to just turn the love on her wiki down a notch, because right now it's going to 11. I'd like to at least see it backed off to an 8. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::You offer no evidence for your position other than anecdotes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC) <br />
:::::::::::Same for the statement that currently stands. Just asking it to be toned down a bit. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::Do you really think that "reasonably well liked, more so than usual" is an 11?<br />
::::::::::Have you considered taking a break from this discussion (which, after all, does not need to be decided today), and [[Special:Contributions/Combobreaker|spending some time contributing elsewhere in the wiki]]? I'm sure you have a great deal to offer toward making this wiki a better and more informative document, so you shouldn't let this one trivia point occupy all your time. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:05, 13 February 2008 (EST)<br />
::::::::::: Please read the comments on this page from other people. KilMichaelMcC has said "it seems like some people like her, others dislike her (or just her Key-powers), and others seem fairly neutral about the character" and Derik says she is "is tolerated/considered mildly amusing." That's less general than what is there now.<br />
:::::::::::Oh, and do me a favor and Google "Sari Sumdac begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting" and tell me what the first result says about her. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::::::::PS: I really want to contribute to this wiki, but believe it or not, I thought I'd start with something small. I had no idea I'd start such a mess just by wanting a character's unquantified popularity slightly edited. That's why I stuck to the talk page instead of editing it myself - didn't want to just jump into editing the wiki itself and piss people off. Somehow managed to do that anyway, but... oh well. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::::::::Don't worry too much about it, dude. Contributions will be judged on their own merits. This issue seems to have been solved to your satisfaction with Repowers'a edit; I don't think anyone will object to you continuing to contribute. If they do, they'll let you know what and why at the time. /:) --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 20:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
I am still uncertain that fandom reaction to Sari is particularly noteworthy at all. Is it really any different from, say, the reaction to the Cybertron kids? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:I think I love you, man, you have been nothing but reasonable and moderate here. I would comment here but I never got into Cybertron, so I'm a little sketchy on the human characters. Suffice it to say that I think trying to define a new character as being universally liked in the Transformers fandom is quite a feat. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 07:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
::It does NOT say that she is universally well liked by ANY stretch of the imagination! It says she is "reasonably well-liked, more so than usual," basically meaning that many fans like her BETTER than most other human characters, not that we think she's the mesiah or something. [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 08:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Repowers's edit==<br />
Well done, Repowers. I can comfortably live with that. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Awesome, that's all I wanted. I'm happy now, and reasonably amused that I managed to somehow spawn a talk thread that ended up longer than the article itself. [[User:Combobreaker|Combobreaker]] 20:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Not human?==<br />
That's a whoooole big block of text discussing what is pretty much entirely fanwank. Do we really need this?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Hmn, it is a bit overlong, actually. Still, I think ''something'' from it needs noting, because Tara Strong's interview and the events of "Megatron Rising" make it clear that there's ''SOMETHING'' unusual about Sari. We could just chop back on the random theories as to what she is, which are all fan-cooked-up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::That's a reason I put in the whole "counterpoints" thing. Reminding them that canon is against them, so stop the fanwanking. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::3 months ago I guessed Sari was a robot and posted it in this discussion article if this turns out to be true I totally called it. [[User:Bobtherandomguy|Bobtherandomguy]] 00:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Things that don't exist==<br />
Seeing how she, legally, doesn't exist, should she get added to that category? Or is that reserved for things that um...in-fictionally-actually? don't exist?[[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] 21:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:It can all be answered with one question: does she think? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 22:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::I'm... Not sure if that question can be answered.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 22:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::We should blank this whole article. There is no information on a 'Sari Sumdac'. (Maybe write that up at the very top and then require page-ing down like 5 times to get at the content, as Chip suggested). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::I tried it to see what it would look like, and I think it works. I imagine we'll change it back if her legal status changes later on. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 23:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::So... are we using the joke or not, now? I think it was a work of genius. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::::"Work of genius" or not... when the joke gets in the way of getting information in this wiki, I think it becomes a bad thing. I'm glad the joke is gone, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 06:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::::I think it's best to leave the joke at including her in the category, it's a funny way to end the article without confusing people who haven't been watching Animated. [[User:(Undecided)|(Undecided)]] 04:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Sari is a Human from the Animated franchise==<br />
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:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]].''<br />
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But is she Really? <br />
I know we don't want fan theories, but how about a little bit of a joke. I mean, I've often seen these bits written amusingly on our Wiki.<br />
:''Sari Sumdac is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[franchise]]. Probably. Or she could be a Robot. or maybe a [[Tentakil_%28Energon%29|Squid-Creature]]. We're not all that sure right now to be honest....''<br />
[[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 18:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Sounds pretty good to me. Made me chuckle. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::One vote for... none against... I think I will try the change. If anyone spots it, and thinks it is a bad idea, then feel free to change it back to normal, and join the "debate" here... It can easily be changed back (the original is still here, and all I've done is added something to the end). [[User:Shadow Mask Prime|Shadow Mask Prime]] 12:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
:::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)<br />
::::Personaly, I think the little 'squid creature' thing is kinda funny, and I vote for temproarily adding it to the article. At least until we learn she's really a human/[[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cyborg]] / robotic android/ squid thing/ *master/ gobot-in-disquise/ whatever she ends up being (my vote's for geneticly altered clone). [[User:AutobotFreak643|AutobotFreak643]] 02:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Incoming spoiler alert==<br />
No, this isn't revealing what Sari actually is. It is a warning about how [[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]] is going to air in Dubai tomorrow, and that it is very likely that the truth about Sari will be revealed then. I strongly suggest that we semi-protect this article to prevent it from becoming too spoilerific (word?) and preserve the dignity of this Wiki. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:Too bloody right! I've been away for a couple of days and appear to have missed the big furor over the Animated spoilers (which were annoying the chocolate-coated fudge out of me), but I seem to have been lucky enough to avoid anything major thus far, and want to keep it that way! = [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
::And though semi-protect would allow others to still edit it, it would stop new and unregistered users, the most likely culprits, from adding things. Theoretically, we might have to keep it semi-protected until A Bridge Too Close actually airs. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
:We're starting to get spoilers for other stuff already, and they're big ones. Someone needs to lock this page now, or we are in for a world of reverts. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
I think we should replace the toppic since A, it isn't the model used in the cartoon, and B, we now have it at the bottom. {{unsigned|96.227.184.235}}<br />
:Please sign your posts. Take a better look; the two pics are different. [[User:JW|JW]] 02:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)<br />
Whoops, sorry. -Anonymous<br />
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<br />
== "Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?" ==<br />
From the new piece of Trivia, "In the first part of "Transform And Roll Out!", Sari's father is seen constructing what appears to be a mechanical arm, before noticing Megatron falling from the sky. Perhaps the arm could be Sari's?", I've watched the clip and don't find it very likely. It looks more like an average robotic arm (one that looks similar to another hanging from Isaac's ceiling).<br />
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Opinions? ([[User:Tribor|Tribor]] 06:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC))<br />
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:Yeah, even aside from the unlikelihood that Isaac was working on Sari at that point in time, that arm is much too big to be Sari's. -- [[User:Greenygal|Greenygal]] 10:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
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: I'm not sure about the arm, but in the intro special, they also happened to be working on nanobots. Even going through the whole spiel on fusing human and machine. Guess what Sari appears to be. [[User:Xevon|Xevon]] 06:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC) <br />
::And we saw how well THAT experiment worked. If he couldn't get down that process after Sari already existed, how could he have managed it to create her?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 06:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
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:*There might have been a big difference between the technology and resources used to create Sari and the technology and resources that they were planning to use in mass production or for public use. Furthermore, if a lot of alien technology(such as technology that is far more advanced than their current technology) was used to make Sari, it could have become too conspicuous, especially if there was no proper introduction for the technology. This would mean that people such as the military or other corporations might start poking their fingers into Sumdac's source of inspiration. There is also the possibility that Sumdac had plucked spare parts right off Megatron, such as rare metals(especially those not readily found on earth) to make Sari, hence he couldn't make another attempt. Another possibility is that Sari is Sumdac's greatest life work, in whom he was pouring all his resources, skills and time and all his other creations are just scraps, spares and extras that he made so that he could support Sari in both her construction and her development. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
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:*None of that really touches on whether the arm in TaRO Pt. 1 was Sari's or not, which was the original question here. *While that's some nice mental exercise, it's a lot of far-reaching speculation without much to back it up.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 15:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC) </ol> It will all be speculation until the series itself provides more information. <small>—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:124.106.181.0|124.106.181.0]] ([[User talk:124.106.181.0|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/124.106.181.0|contribs]]).</small><br />
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:And specualtion is for messageboards, not this wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== quote ==<br />
Personally I think the "If you think I'm gonna let you geaeheads out of my sight, you're nuts, and I don't mean the kind that come with bolts" quote better than the current one because she said it, and it just suits her personality more, but then that's just my opinion [[User:Chromia|Chromia]] 16:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)<br />
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== Transformersanimated.com is not affiliated with Hasbro, Cartoon network, or ''anyone'' official. ==<br />
It is a ''fansite''. It states so directly on the site's footer. What's more, they are a fansite that, like many of them, has far less stringent requirements for inclusion than this wiki. Just as you would not put something from TFW2005, The Allspark, or TFormers.com up here without first checking if they got it from an official source rather than a leak, apply that reasoning to Transformersanimated.com's news. Don't let the domain name fool you.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 13:59, 4 January 2009 (EST)<br />
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:Given Hasbro went after domain names based upon their trademarks i the late 90s and early 2000s, I'm surprised they didn't go after this site. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:36, 14 March 2009 (EDT) <br />
<br />
== New Caption Suggestion for Super-Sari ==<br />
I humbly suggest, for the judgment of the council, that the caption of the picture of "Super-" or "Robo-" Sari be changed from it's current state, "Masterforce!" to the much awesomer (you read that right) "It's Morphin' Time!" After careful study and extensive meditation, I have reached the conclusion that this would be met with more sniggers from any readers. What say you?<br />
--[[User:Keegman|Keegman]] 07:02, 23 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
As the Joker would say, "If you have to explain the joke, THEN THERE IS NO JOKE!"<br />
[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:30, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Sari and fans ==<br />
We're into the third season, and this is just kind of hanging here like a vestigial organ. It's not trivia, it's very speculatey, and now that more of her origin has been revealed it's quite a bit redundant.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 20:17, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Now that her origin is (mostly) revealed, the "Things that don't exist" category isn't really funny anymore. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:21, 24 March 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Age? ==<br />
<br />
Has it been confirmed yet what teenage robo-Sari's age is? I know in Human error pt 1, when Sumdac gave her the scooter, she said, "Thanks dad, but I was hoping for something with four wheels," implying that she is sixteen-ish, but she came across more as a 13-ish year old to me. Anyone have an answer? -[[User:JesWalHok|JesWalHok]] 17:35, 18 April 2009 (EDT)JesWalHok<br />
:Seems fairly unlikely to be confirmed, as there's no real way to figure out how "old" someone who just spontaneously grew up is with any precision.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:16, 18 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Well its apperent that she believes in Santa Clause something a normal 8-year-old would beleive in. So technicaly she is mentaly at age 8. D.J.Sky 4-21-09 6:38<br />
<br />
I agree with ... D.J.Sky Is It? I think she is taking advantage of her age just to get a car.--E-Bot April 21 2009.<br />
:I take offense to that...besides, doesn't Prowl prove that Santa was a Transformer, anyway?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:06, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
I think that was just a gag the writers came up with. And by the way, he was implying that Santa has clones.--E-Bot April 22 2009<br />
<br />
== Female Transformer? ==<br />
<br />
Since Sari is a Cybertronian lifeform with (presumably) a spark and circuits, couldn't she be considered a female Transformer now? It could be that her human form is her alt mode, kind of like Blackarachnia and Waspinator's bug modes. Should we add her to the ranks?--[[User:Nightshade83|Nightshade83]] 14:12, 21 April 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Yes! - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 14:33, 7 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
*I agree. Sari's basically an Autobot with an organic mode. You can not dispute that, no matter how hard you try.[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 13:01, 17 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
**So...what's the verdict? Do we slap an Autobrand on her article or what?[[User:New Era Outlaw|New Era Outlaw]] 19:33, 24 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::No, she isn't an Autobot. She grew up human and never officially joined the Autobots. She was a [[substitute Autobot]] once though. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:28, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
::::Isn't that why you guys put an Autobrand on [[Scrapper (Animated)|Scrapper's]] article to begin with? By that logic, Sari should be considered as an Autobot, if going by that reason alone.[[Special:Contributions/200.3.177.134|200.3.177.134]] 11:32, 1 September 2009 (EDT)<br />
:Didn't she call herself an Autobot in Endgame II? Either way, we call Snarl an Autobot, even though he was only ever in the substitutes, so why can't we call her one as well? Even though she was never given the actual brand, she called herself an Autobot pretty much the entire third season.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:39, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::I don't recall her calling herself an Autobot, but I could be wrong. Snarl's toy is an Autobot ''and'' he has an Autobrand on the show, so he is an Autobot. - Starfield (logged off) [[Special:Contributions/69.14.126.15|69.14.126.15]] 18:54, 26 May 2009 (EDT) <br />
:::The line was "All Autobots, half-bots and almost-bots present and accounted for." She seems to have double-counted herself there (unless you think she was being very rude to at least one from Bumblebee, Bulkhead, Ratchet or Arcee), but that's no reason to think she was calling herself an "Autobot" :) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
::::I thought "almost-bots" was referring to the protoforms. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::Didn't they go back for them? [At the very least, they must have gone back for Lugnut, who we ''see'' get left behind, and possibly Shockwave]. One possible explanation, I suppose, but they certainly weren't visible on the bridge for her to "account" for. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:23, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
:::::This is ridiculous. She is absolutely an Autobot. If the Dinobots count as autobots then sari definitely is one!--[[Special:Contributions/24.69.64.254|24.69.64.254]] 20:59, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::The Dinobots have big Autobot sigils on their bodies. Sari does not. She also never refers to herself as an Autobot, nor does anyone else. The closest she's been is a "Replacement Autobot", but that's not a full-fledged Autobot. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:20, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Sari's Transformation Noise==<br />
<br />
Isn't it ALSO shared with the Headmaster Unit, which was the first human-built transforma-majig I think we saw in Animated continuity? --[[Special:Contributions/82.41.82.198|82.41.82.198]] 05:30, 11 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Sari's body is a hybrid, but it's established in Transwarped that she is basically organic. The protoform seems to have adjusted beyond a half and half split [[User:Eire]] 26 May 23.57 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::The impression I got was that her body is 100% carbon-based (i.e., organic) - ''but that'' that organic material was mostly arranged as technology to a nominally Cybertronian design, just carbon-based rather than (e.g.) silicon-based. A Beast Machine, basically. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:19, 26 May 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Sari's Jetpack ==<br />
<br />
Is it just me, or is there a goodly amount of similarity between her scooter/jetpack and the technobot Afterburner? Peach/Cream colorscheme, wheels set out from the body, designed by a supergenius.. (Okay, stretching on that last one) but similarity is there. Not a LOT, but there.<br />
<br />
== KP captions ==<br />
<br />
Do we really need the KP captions? Is the goal to increase the creepiness factor of ''Animated''? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 07:25, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
:Honestly, the whole KP joke is more than played out. I'm about ready to lump it in with "Bonecrusher hates _____" and "____ superior, _____ inferior" in the "never make these fucking 'jokes' again" category. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
::Agreed. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 13:26, 20 December 2009 (EST)<br />
<br />
== '''TF Animated Human Figures''' ==<br />
<br />
So I was perusing the web for info on figures and I came to this website: http://www.tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/692/. Apparently Sari, Fanzone, and Isaac are available in Japan but so far not here. I think for collecting's sake they would be cool to have but what I'd really like to see is Omega Supreme. {{unsigned|24.21.50.161|07:35, 22 July 2010 (EDT)}}<br />
:I don't think those are official. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 07:39, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::They definitely aren't — they're made by Impossible Toys. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 08:00, 22 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Sari's Weaponry ==<br />
<br />
NONE of her regular upgrades (jump boosters, blades, shield) are sealed away. [http://www.formspring.me/DerrickJWyatt/q/1050691993 Source] This needs to be clarified. -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 09:57, 3 September 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=494151User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-27T18:27:56Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::If we delete this page, where will we put the Directory? The FS RP community is growing rapidly, and has been rivalling the TFARP on Twitter for a month now. The continuities are NOT the same in the slightest, and unlike the TFARP it's very difficult to find other RP'rs with the failure of a search engine it has and the awkward no-working-links in the Bio section. I vote we keep it. [[User:Namiinana|Namiinana]] 19:04, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Where to keep your personal information is not the problem of the TF Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:10, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Would it be a problem if I moved it to my own personal page?[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:14, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Your User page here is not any more of a suitable venue. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:31, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Now I'm confused. I see people with pictures of their kids on their pages! I'm not trying to be difficult, but, what gives? --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:34, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::And who are those "people"? If they're using our webspace for their extensive personal pages, we'll be happy to tell them to find hosting for their stuff elsewhere. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:43, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
Some of the characters have great show-related answers if you ask the right question, though.<br />
:None of which are official. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:29, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sorry guys, see, the problem is a list of fan-made role-playing journals isn't relevant to the main aim of this site, which is to document ''official'' stuff to do with Transformers. Much as I hate to refer people to Wikia, the [http://transfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Transformers Fanon] wiki would be a much more suitable place for this. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:59, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Thank you for the recommendation. --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 20:12, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Very well, Ladies and Gentlemen. I will relocate this page. However, I'd like to politely request that this page is not deleted until I transfer it. I'll get to it in the next solar-cycle or two. Are we all cool? -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 20:11, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Alright, it's moved. Have at it. -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 14:27, 27 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:Devastator&diff=494116User:Devastator2010-08-27T16:10:13Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the [http://bit.ly/aYLFvm Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Directory].<br />
<br />
<br />
==Favorites==<br />
*[[Universal stream]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493993User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-27T00:12:34Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::If we delete this page, where will we put the Directory? The FS RP community is growing rapidly, and has been rivalling the TFARP on Twitter for a month now. The continuities are NOT the same in the slightest, and unlike the TFARP it's very difficult to find other RP'rs with the failure of a search engine it has and the awkward no-working-links in the Bio section. I vote we keep it. [[User:Namiinana|Namiinana]] 19:04, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Where to keep your personal information is not the problem of the TF Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:10, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Would it be a problem if I moved it to my own personal page?[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:14, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Your User page here is not any more of a suitable venue. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:31, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Now I'm confused. I see people with pictures of their kids on their pages! I'm not trying to be difficult, but, what gives? --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:34, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::And who are those "people"? If they're using our webspace for their extensive personal pages, we'll be happy to tell them to find hosting for their stuff elsewhere. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:43, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
Some of the characters have great show-related answers if you ask the right question, though.<br />
:None of which are official. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:29, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sorry guys, see, the problem is a list of fan-made role-playing journals isn't relevant to the main aim of this site, which is to document ''official'' stuff to do with Transformers. Much as I hate to refer people to Wikia, the [http://transfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Transformers Fanon] wiki would be a much more suitable place for this. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:59, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Thank you for the recommendation. --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 20:12, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Very well, Ladies and Gentlemen. I will relocate this page. However, I'd like to politely request that this page is not deleted until I transfer it. I'll get to it in the next solar-cycle or two. Are we all cool? -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 20:11, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493992User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-27T00:11:58Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::If we delete this page, where will we put the Directory? The FS RP community is growing rapidly, and has been rivalling the TFARP on Twitter for a month now. The continuities are NOT the same in the slightest, and unlike the TFARP it's very difficult to find other RP'rs with the failure of a search engine it has and the awkward no-working-links in the Bio section. I vote we keep it. [[User:Namiinana|Namiinana]] 19:04, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Where to keep your personal information is not the problem of the TF Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:10, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Would it be a problem if I moved it to my own personal page?[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:14, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Your User page here is not any more of a suitable venue. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:31, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Now I'm confused. I see people with pictures of their kids on their pages! I'm not trying to be difficult, but, what gives? --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:34, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::And who are those "people"? If they're using our webspace for their extensive personal pages, we'll be happy to tell them to find hosting for their stuff elsewhere. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:43, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
Some of the characters have great show-related answers if you ask the right question, though.<br />
:None of which are official. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:29, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Sorry guys, see, the problem is a list of fan-made role-playing journals isn't relevant to the main aim of this site, which is to document ''official'' stuff to do with Transformers. Much as I hate to refer people to Wikia, the [http://transfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Transformers Fanon] wiki would be a much more suitable place for this. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:59, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Very well, Ladies and Gentlemen. I will relocate this page. However, I'd like to politely request that this page is not deleted until I transfer it. I'll get to it in the next solar-cycle or two. Are we all cool? -- [[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 20:11, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493984User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-26T23:34:17Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::If we delete this page, where will we put the Directory? The FS RP community is growing rapidly, and has been rivalling the TFARP on Twitter for a month now. The continuities are NOT the same in the slightest, and unlike the TFARP it's very difficult to find other RP'rs with the failure of a search engine it has and the awkward no-working-links in the Bio section. I vote we keep it. [[User:Namiinana|Namiinana]] 19:04, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Where to keep your personal information is not the problem of the TF Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:10, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Would it be a problem if I moved it to my own personal page?[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:14, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Your User page here is not any more of a suitable venue. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:31, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Now I'm confused. I see people with pictures of their kids on their pages! I'm not trying to be difficult, but, what gives? --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:34, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
Some of the characters have great show-related answers if you ask the right question, though.<br />
:None of which are official. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:29, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493977User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-26T23:14:55Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::If we delete this page, where will we put the Directory? The FS RP community is growing rapidly, and has been rivalling the TFARP on Twitter for a month now. The continuities are NOT the same in the slightest, and unlike the TFARP it's very difficult to find other RP'rs with the failure of a search engine it has and the awkward no-working-links in the Bio section. I vote we keep it. [[User:Namiinana|Namiinana]] 19:04, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Where to keep your personal information is not the problem of the TF Wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:10, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Would it be a problem if I moved it to my own personal page?[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:14, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493972User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-26T23:03:24Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That doesn't make it ''relevant'' to the Wiki. I'm going to mark it for deletion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:24, 26 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I wasn't aware that there were restrictions regarding personal pages. Even if it's Transformer-related. I've seen some people's that look like a Facebook page.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 19:03, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Devastator/TFA_FormSpring_Directory&diff=493964User talk:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory2010-08-26T22:22:40Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>How is this related to the Wiki? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:39, 9 August 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's related to Transformers.[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 18:22, 26 August 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:Devastator&diff=481870User:Devastator2010-07-23T15:03:27Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Directory.<br />
<br />
*[[User:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory]]<br />
<br />
==Favorites==<br />
*[[Universal stream]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:Devastator&diff=481441User:Devastator2010-07-21T21:05:43Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Directory.<br />
<br />
*[[User:Devastator/TFA FormSpring Directory]]</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:Devastator&diff=481409User:Devastator2010-07-21T20:12:20Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Directory.</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:Devastator&diff=481407User:Devastator2010-07-21T20:06:44Z<p>Devastator: New page: Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Director.</p>
<hr />
<div>Devastator is the unofficial keeper of the Transformers: Animated: FormSpring Director.</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=481402MediaWiki talk:Community Portal2010-07-21T19:50:02Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__<br />
<br />
This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:<br />
<br />
{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=<br />
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]<br />
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]<br />
}}<br/> <br />
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== Home Video sections are lacking ==<br />
I looked up the DVD and Home Video content on Wookiepedia, Memory Alpha, Lostpedia, and even the 24 Wiki and they all brought up pages with tons of info, all neatly organized and categorized. But for this Wiki, searches turn up little and the only way I could find home video content effectively is through the "Category:Home Video" page, and even then it was - sorry to say - A Mess! Why is a wiki as large as this one so inadequate in this regard? If this wiki doesn't have it right, then shouldn't it be fixed by modeling the home video sections after the wikis that have it done right? Most of the content is already here, it just needs to be better organized. {{unsigned|4.254.83.255}}<br />
:Er, I don't know what you mean, exactly, considering that our home video sections look perfectly fine to me. See: [[Transformers_Animated_(cartoon)#Home video releases]], [[The Transformers (cartoon)#DVD releases]], [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]], [[Robots in Disguise (cartoon)#DVD releases]], etc. I don't know what more you could want; for any series you want to know DVD info about, the info is likely available on that series' page.<br />
:Either that, or you're perhaps not realizing the difference in how the TF series work. Instead of something like Trek where the different series are all in a ''single'' universe and storyline, there's somewhere around 16 DVD-able Transformers things, all of which are in multiple ''different'' universes and storylines.<br />
:As such, IMHO it makes far more sense for us to group our home video by those separate series, rather than all together. I think most TF fans are only going to be interested in what DVDs are available for their specific favorite series/universe, rather than wanting to see every single DVD at once for everything.<br />
:Not that a comprehensive DVD list might not still be a useful project, mind you. Just saying that IMHO we're far from unorganized or a mess if we don't have one. We just have different organizing needs because of the unique way the TF series themselves are organized. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:38, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::Agreed on all counts. I'd need to know what the previous poster was actually looking for to understand what improvements they're wanting.<br />
::It ''could'' be this is another symptom of us not having any sort of "Transformers primer", as we discussed ages ago. Maybe time to revisit that idea?<br />
::(I went onto Wookiepedia looking for some ideas, but got distracted by the absurdly long and reaching list of "References to the original trilogy" on the ''Attack of the Clones'' page. If that list were here, I'd take a weedwhacker to it.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 09:21, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::I like the idea of a Transformers primer, explaining the odd franchise and reboot and "multiple characters with the same name" nature of the deal. Pages like [[continuity]], [[canon]], and [[continuity family]] cover some of the info that might go on such a thing, but they're still a bit too "techy" for the casual reader, I think. Something that covers similar info but in a more accessible way might be very useful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:13, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::::I'd be all for a ''Transformers 101'' type page. A simple concise "These are Transformers, they come from Cybertron, there are Autobots and Decepticons (generally) fighting a big war (generally) over control of resources. Usually there's an Optimus and a Megatron (or the nearest local equivalent), a kid-friendly character and a conniving evil second-in-command, but beyond that, it's a weird-ass multiverse. Why are all the different incarnations of TF so different, yet so similar? [[To sell toys|Duh.]] [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::::I've taken a stab at this; my idea is in [[User:Fortress_Minimus/Introduction_to_Transformers|my sandbox]]. Feel free to improve it. --[[User:Fortress Minimus|Fortress Minimus]] 15:28, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I will say that I think we need to be better about making sure individual episode/comic pages include all the relevant home-video/trade-paperback compilations one can find said individual episodes on... and I am a firm believer that each home video/compilation needs its own page. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:49, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
I should have known I was stirring up a hornet's nest when I posted that yesterday. This started with my searching for old VHS releases of transformers on Amazon.com. I then figured I'd check it out on this wiki, but amazingly searching for VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray turned up nothing. (I even considered that it was the browser I was using. It's not.) "Home video" turned up pages for the series and their home video sections, but not a comprehensive listing with links (to the home video sections). There are some great guides to home video for the live-action films, and the home video category lists companies, but I just found it a bit frustrating that it required so much digging to find what I was looking for. Other wiki's do have pages dedicated to just DVD (Though I have exaggerated their organization.), and in the case of Memory Alpha templates that direct one to the releases. Granted, nothing's perfect and those other wiki's maybe only succeed over this one in that I was able to find what I was looking for fast. But content that can't be found might as well not be there. Out of frustration I finally just thought "This is a mess!" and posted the above.<br />
<br />
Go ahead and say everything's fine. The content ''is'' there all well done when you do find it, even if it was difficult to come by (Why, for instance, does the home video category not provide links to the home video sections for each series and movie? Would putting all those article in the home video category be inappropriate? Maybe, but without something like that, the category didn't help much for my search.), and maybe this is more a criticism of the failings of the search engine behind the box on the left of each page. But my difficulty in finding what I was looking for happened, and I suspect it goes on all the time with other casual searches: "Lemme see what DVD releases there are for transformers." [types DVD, hits 'enter'] "Nothing?! Oh well..."<br />
:Ah, I see the problem. DVD, VHS, and Blu-ray are all three-letter terms (or made up of three-letter terms with dashes), and the wiki software always returns no results for search terms with three letters or less.<br />
:The problem is that (most) every other wiki only has one universe to worry about, while we have multiple universes. So it makes perfect sense for someplace like Memory Alpha to have all of the videos together, because the series are all sequels to each other.<br />
:Whereas for us, there's little reason to have, say, the Robots in Disguise videos and the Animated videos together, because they're two series that have nothing to do with each other. Instead, we have home video listings on the series pages, because it's far more likely someone's going to want to know if RID specifically has videos, or Animated specifically has videos, etc.<br />
:As such, putting the entire cartoon series pages into the Home Video category when only a single section contains info related to that category is odd. ''However'', I do think maybe we could fake it using redirects. For instance, "Transformers Animated home video releases" that redirects to "Transformers Animated (cartoon)#Home video releases", etc. Then we'd put the redirect in the category.<br />
:We could also make it so that terms like "VHS", "DVD", and "Blu-ray" all redirect to "Category:Home Video" to get around the three-letter search terms problems. (Er, can you ''have'' redirects point to categories?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::Maybe part of the problem is that [[:Category:Home video]] mostly lists companies that put out TF on DVD. All well and good if you know Kid Rhino and Shout! Factory put out G1, but if you don't, how do you know where to go for G1 DVD info. We have [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]] and [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)/DVD]]. Perhaps we just need that for each series, and then maybe a central page to tie them together? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:18, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::I was just going to add an addendum that if we go the route of creating categorized redirects to all of our series-specific sections, we could create a couple subcategories to separate the companies from the actual release areas. We also should probably stick the DVD covers subcategories in their own umbrella "Covers" subcategory.<br />
:::I'm not sure we really need a central page, so much as making the individual sections all available and easier to get to in the Home Video category, and making terms like "DVD" redirect to that category.--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::::I don't see the harm in having something at each of those namespaces, but given my druthers I'd make each of them in the format of a disambiguation page.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:25, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::::If I'm following you correctly, you're suggesting to make pages for DVD, VHS, etc. and have them be disambiguation pages? That's not a bad idea at all. I think we should definitely have an actual main page for Generation 1 video releases and perhaps the same for Beast Wars. Adding links to the nav templates for video releases (whatever is chosen as the 'central page' for that franchise) would probably be a good idea too. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
I've been planning to make a central "hub" page since I started doing the home video stuff, and to have releases listed on episode pages (like I did at the bottom of [[The Transformers: The Movie promo]]), but I was waiting until I'd finished all the company pages so I could add everything together in one go rather than a load of little edits. I guess I took too long doing that, though, and the punters are getting restless. We've got enough info to make it worth starting now anyway, so I'll bump it up on my to-do list. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:38, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:Well, I was thinking something like the [[series]] page with links to everything, but I can't make that work without it becoming overly long and complicated. Instead I've gone with a simple disambig thing as suggested above, as well as the redirects and cat sorting that Jeysie mentioned. Thoughts so far? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 08:10, 13 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Toyline list formatting ==<br />
I was looking through various toyline pages to get an idea of how to format the list of toys for the [[Beast Wars Metals (toyline)]] page that I created and the one I'd like to create for the [[Beast Wars (Japanese franchise)|Japanese Beast Wars]] toyline, and noticed an inconsistency in the way the toylists are done. Specifically, with whether alt-modes should be listed by the name of the toy. Beast Wars, Neo, Beast Machines, Armada and Energon include alt-modes, while G1, G2, Beast Wars II, RID, Cybertron, and ROTF do not. Movie 2007 has it for some but not all. Is having alt-modes in the lists something that we desire? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Caption location==<br />
I find the way captions are currently placed at the rightt ugly, in particular if the caption is very short. It only looks decent when it is a piece of a conversation. So, is it possible to alter the coding so that caption gets placed in the center? I think that will look a lot better. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Uhhh...I'm not sure what you mean. Captions are placed in the LEFT of the boxes. Images are often at the right of the page, but not always. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:54, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Okay, so I have a problem telling left and right apart. ^^* Left then - the captions look ugly placed all too the ''left''. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:09, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Isn't left alignment of text associated with images standard in all forms of publication? That's the way I've always seen such things in books and magazines.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:02, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Centering would look terrible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:23, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Disambig3 of ordinary name ==<br />
<br />
I think it is fine to put [[Template:Disambig3|Disambig3]] of ordinary names such as "[[David (disambiguation)|David]]", "[[Jim (disambiguation)|Jim]]", or "[[Bill (disambiguation)|Bill]]" on certain pages, since these names are names instead of generic words like "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Star|Star]]",[[Special:PrefixIndex/Thunder|Thunder]]", "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Sky|Sky]]", or "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Jet|Jet]]".<br />
<br />
See, we won't call [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] or [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast]] just "Thunder" (unless here comes an official nickname some day). But it is natural/normal to call David Kaye "David" (for example). Or, it's normal to call [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] just "[[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]]".<br />
<br />
So, in my opinion, it is okay to leave put disambig3 of ordinary names on those pages. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 23:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Is there some kind of consensus for this, or is it going to lead to a huge edit war where different users like FortMAx and Interrobang (to pick a couple random editors) clog up recent changes alternately addign and removing disambigs without marking them as minor for filterng purposes? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 01:55, 17 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Current consensus is that we put disambiguation on for first and/or last name. We haven't had any discussion about removing the disambig3s. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:08, 17 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== IP Range Blocking ==<br />
<br />
As of this writing, within the past several hours, we've had a dozen edits from what appears to be one anonymous editor, sent from several IPs in the 64.112.16 range and one in 64.112.17 range. All have been attempts to add Japanese names to the ''TF Animated'' cast prematurely. I've blocked one of the addresses (infinitely, more for abusing multiple accounts than anything else), so any subsequent ones should also be blocked, but will this block other IPs he's already used? And if not, could someone point me to the process for handling this? Or is this something a super-admin has to handle?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:21, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:The IP addresses he's been editing from are AOL's proxy, which uses a random IP from their range for each access, so he's not changing IP addresses intentionally. Blocking all of the IP addresses he could potentially use would mean blocking AOL in its entirety. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:36, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::And that's bad ''how''? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:46, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::So do I change his block to temporary instead of permanent? I'm not sure if a brief spate of premature Japanese name inclusion merits an infinite block in and of itself. Or do we hope this teaches him a lesson and that he registers if he wants to keep contributing?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 23:16, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Every time he load or edits a page, he does so from a different IP address, so the ban on just one of the IP addresses won't make a difference - he'll never see that he's been banned. With AOL, it's either a blanket ban on the IP range, or semi-protecting the articles being attacked. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:27, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::The problem with AOL is that they have effin' huge IP ranges, they don't send X-Forwarded-For headers by default, and approximately ten umptillion people use it, which means we'd be blocking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people.<br />
::::Semi-protect the pages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:38, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Ditto on semi-protect. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:32, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yeah, I looked up a Wikipedia talk page on how to deal with AOL vandals, and they came to the same conclusion - better to semi-protect the pages than block 5 million people. If the AOL person comes back and tries it again, we should semi-protect the pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:09, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Works for me. If I'm here the next time he tries something, I'll semi-protect as many ''Animated'' character pages as I can in one go.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:19, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Formatting Pet Peeves ==<br />
<br />
So a thread on the Allspark made me want to bicker about a few annoying pet peeve things I see people doing here on the Wiki.<br />
<br />
'''Double-spacing between sentences.'''<br />
<br />
Folks... these are ''web pages''. Double spaces ''don't show up'' on the display unless you use the HTML code that forces one (and please, for the love of humanity, don't). Now, putting double spaces before inline templates like storylinks does make sense, because it lets you pick them apart from the actual text while editing, but double-spacing sentences just does nothing even from that standpoint. And over the number of pages we have, it can add up space-wise.<br />
<br />
'''Putting line returns between list items.'''<br />
<br />
When you put list items together like this:<br />
<br />
<pre>*List item one<br />
*List item two<br />
*List item three</pre><br />
<br />
You get this in the code:<br />
<br />
<pre><ul><br />
<li>List item one</li><br />
<li>List item two</li><br />
<li>List item three</li><br />
</ul></pre><br />
<br />
See? Nice correct ''single'' list. Now, what happens when you do this instead?<br />
<br />
<pre>*List item one<br />
<br />
*List item two<br />
<br />
*List item three</pre><br />
<br />
Well, you get this:<br />
<br />
<pre><ul><br />
<li>List item one</li><br />
</ul><br />
<ul><br />
<li>List item two</li><br />
</ul><br />
<ul><br />
<li>List item three</li><br />
</ul></pre><br />
<br />
Yes. Now instead of a list that should be a single being in, you know, ''one'' coded list, it's now in ''three'' coded lists. This is bad for a number of reasons.<br />
<br />
If you want spacing between line items, put a blasted line of CSS in your personal CSS thingy that puts some there:<br />
<br />
<pre>li {margin:.5em 0;}</pre><br />
<br />
In fact, even better, someone with admin access put that line in the wiki's main CSS like I've been trying to pester Derik to do for ages now. Boom, instant spacing without doing god-awful things to the HTML code.<br />
<br />
'''The never-ending {{tl|-}} vs. {{tl|--}} debate.'''<br />
<br />
Considering the whole reason the latter was created was to replace the former in those instances where the spacing was too large, having some folks constantly swapping the latter back to the former is annoying. And then there's the people who don't even bother to do the swap and just stack both together, which is just really stupid.<br />
<br />
If what's making it not work is that it's:<br />
<br />
<pre>{{--}}<br />
<br />
Next Header</pre><br />
<br />
When it needs to be:<br />
<br />
<pre>{{--}}<br />
Next Header</pre><br />
<br />
Then, you know, fix the code.<br />
<br />
And if the problem is that you're using an outdated browser, then either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us.<br />
<br />
Anyhoo. There's probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but for now, this is your Code Wench complaining about these issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:22, 28 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Good call on<br />
<pre><br />
* list<br />
<br />
*list</pre><br />
:that was something I was unaware of but will look out for in future. While we're talking formatting, though, is it possible to remove the <pre>{{--}}</pre> (or similar) from the note template? When notes escape images it tends to screw up the page a bit --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 16:43, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::The problem is that if we don't, the note template is coded in such a way that it currently ends up overlapping part of the image frame and looking worse. Also:<br />
::<pre>li + li {margin-top:.5em}</pre><br />
::Might be better for the list item spacing, as then you avoid affecting the spacing above and below the list, plus it will avoid messing up the articles where the list items have been spaced out, and they can be fixed at our leisure. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::That is indeed a better thought, although I don't recall off-hand if IE7 supports that type of selector or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:19, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I just tested it in IE8 and... no dice. Oh well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:55, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I'm confused, because [http://kimblim.dk/css-tests/selectors/ this page] says it's supported in IE7 and 8, but when I tried it in my copy of IE8, it didn't work. I may have to retest and see if it wasn't some minor syntactical error that was stopping it working. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:05, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I'm wondering if it's possibly a standards mode vs. quirks mode (or compatibility mode or whatever the heck they're calling it nowadays) sort of thing, as I know IE likes to pretend it doesn't support some things if it gets kicked into quirks mode. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:57, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Aha, yes, it was a compatibility thing. I slapped a DOCTYPE on the top of my test page, and li+li started working! That seems like it would be the best solution to the problem of cramped lists. I can add it to common.css at some point, if everyone agrees. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:40, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Having tested further, the solution needs more work. We probably do not want to have this spacing in ''all'' of the lists, because otherwise you get this: [http://www.aldenbates.com/spacedcharacters.jpg]. So I think to be viable, we need to limit it to Notes sections somehow. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:16, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Is it possible to reset the margin for lists that are in a table? TABLE LI {whatever the reset would be}. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 07:29, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::Yes, however there are occasions where such lists occur outside boxes too. The [[More_than_Meets_the_Eye,_Part_1#Home_video_releases|Home Video stuff]] on the episode pages, lists of external links, the "these pages link to this image" list on the image pages, etc. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:38, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::I don't see why some spacing on those kinds of lists too is a bad thing.<br />
:::::::::::But you could always try something like H2+UL LI+LI, or just reduce the amount of space a little to .25em or such.<br />
:::::::::::Or adapt what Derik did to limit the TFNA/TFU/YoJoe icons to only show up in the "External Links" sections:<br />
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;">#bodyContent a[name='External_links'] + h2 + ul > li > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external,<br />
#bodyContent .tt1_external > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external{<br />
padding-right:61px;<br />
background-image:url('http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/75/Tfuinfo_icon.png');</pre><br />
:::::::::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:45, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::I tried doing the latter last night, but my CSS fu was not strong enough. The extra h3s in the way complicate things. Maybe Derik can have a crack on it when he's back on deck? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::Still haven't had the chance to really look at this yet, but I had a thought: Since we tend to frequently label our Notes sections in the same way, why not just add those labels as extra matching rules? That would cover a good chunk of the H3 issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:16, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Could do, but there would be a bunch of them, and things like [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1#Animation_or_technical_glitches|this]] where the lists are interrupted by paragraphs (I'm not sure why those aren't just H4s). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:28, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::I don't really see it as a problem... since most of our existing lists would need the extra spaces edited out anyway after this, we can always standardize other things as well, as soon as we decided on one (semi-colons, H4s, whichever). In fact, working on standardizing our code when we can is a good thing in general anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:43, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::Having given this more thought: probably the safest way to do it would be to create a template similar to {{tl|columnlist}}. The disadvantage being that it would have applied to all of the lists where it was required. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:07, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Considering the whole point was to get people to have the whitespace they wanted while still using the coding correctly, that's not really what I had in mind. Let me see if I can find some time to hack away at it, provided Derik doesn't show up first. Honestly, though, considering we don't have a lot of in-body non-table-contained lists, I'd be more inclined to just live with spacing on all of them. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Hey, if we're moaning about formatting, I got one - is there any way to make the "note" template work with left-aligned pictures that doesn't result in a chunk'o whitespace? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:28, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:The image float is what makes it tricky, at least visually. Do you have an example handy I can look at? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Sure, now that I'm looking, I can't find a truly annoying example of it, but here's a [[Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#Hearts_of_Steel|for instance]]. If that picture was right-aligned, the note would snap up to right under the body text, but because the pic's on the left, it creates that whitespace. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:16, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::OK, did some poking around.<br />
:::Basically, there's a <tt>clear:left</tt> in the CSS for the Notes, and I discovered that the reason why is that you can get [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/wiki-note-wonkyness.jpg this sort of icky visual] otherwise.<br />
:::This could be fixed by removing the <tt>clear:left</tt> and then either putting the Note in a single-cell table or slapping a <tt>display:table</tt> on the CSS for it (which would be cleaner code-wise but may not work in IE or older browsers; I don't know off-hand), but I'm not sure what effect that might have on ''other'' text/image-wrapping situations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Still don't know why you can't get <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki>. Reasoning that people on those browsers should "either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us" or bulljive like that is idiotic, because unless they visit this specific subsection they won't be aware the stupid thing isn't working due to browser outdatedness. Plus, as a ressource, shouldn't we, I dunno, thrive to be as accessible to as many people as possible, regardless of browser choices? Surely working the code for <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki> so it works on as many browsers as possible can't be that daunting a task? I mean, honestly now, it's just the same break as <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> but without the extra space at the end. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:27, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm not Derik (obviously) but basically... what the {{tl|--}} does is put a "clear:both;" on the header following the template via this:<br />
<pre>.tt1_clearall + a + h1,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h2,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h3,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h4,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h5,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h6</pre><br />
:Which involves CSS selectors that older browsers can't handle because they weren't compliant with all of the standards. I think the only other way to handle this would be using javascript to alter the heading in question. Doable, I guess, but it seems like a waste of time to bother for the tiny handful of people who refuse to update to a standards-compliant browser. Whether Derik would feel differently or not, you'd have to ask him.<br />
:There's a lot of newer HTML and CSS standards that help out both viewers and webmasters, that either can't be done with very old browsers or can only be replicated on them by fiddling with complex javascript code. You need to accept that people aren't going to keep from ever using anything new just to accommodate your personal choice to keep using a buggy and outdated browser, especially when you're in an increasingly tiny percentage. Doubly especially when it's something like this where the site is still usable even if it doesn't work.<br />
:(Now, if you were using something like Lynx, which actually ''is'' standards-compliant for everything related to its pure-text methodology--and there are good reasons for choosing to surf sans images--''then'' I think you'd actually have a good case.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:00, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, I'd love to switch over, but new versions of IE have complete clusterfucks instead of layouts, and while I ''can'' mess around with the layout on Firefox to make it match IE6, the inability to add Office, MSN and AIM shortcuts to the icons, as well as just how freaking ''paranoid'' it is when it comes to browsing, downloading, etc., just makes me very uninterested in using it on a regular basis. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 11:41, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Try using Opera. The button layout is drag-and-drop customizable to ridiculous degrees (my own setup basically looks nothing like the default setup), including being able to [http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons add custom buttons] and website buttons. Its tile-able tab setup and ability to save and quick-insert custom notes and retain form data with the "Back" button is really helpful for Wiki-ing too. There's also things like one-click adding of custom searches (yay TFWiki search). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:54, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Categories==<br />
:To distinguish between the group Headmasters and characters appearing in Japan's 1987 franchise, the categories are called "Headmasters" and "Headmasters franchise". Wouldn't it be a better option to have the franchise category be called by its franchise name "The Headmasters"? On top of that, some of its subcategories are called "Headmasters [something]" while others are called "The Headmasters [something]". I suggest to alter them all to either one of the options, preferably the latter one if the main category is changed to include "The".<br />
:The "Universe (2003)" category also has some oddities. First of all, "Universe characters" should probably be further divided to differentiate from the 2008 guys, even if they may not need a category on their own since "Universe (2008)" is practically only characters as is. I'd do it, but right now various (sub)subcategories are called "Universe 2003 [something]" instead of a more logical "Universe (2003) [something]" to be alike to the main category. Is there a reason for that or should it be changed to match? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:20, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Distinguishing between the characters and the franchise solely by the presence of the definite article, while TECHNICALLY correct, is just asking for confusion. I do agree with you on the Universe characters and the subcategories of "Universe (2003)", though. -- [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Analog/Homage vs Distinct Character==<br />
This has come up in relation to whether or not [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is an homage to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]], particularly as to how both of them relate to [[Sentinel Major]]. [[User:ItsWalky]] informed me on [[Talk:Sentinel_Prime_(G1)]] that (emphasis mine): <br />
"I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime. They are analogs. That relationship goes both ways. ''This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters.'''" <br />
<br />
Is that policy and/or the general consensus? I don't see why it should be applied universally as ItsWalky suggests it is, especially with characters like [[Jetfire_(G1)]] and [[Jetfire_(Animated)]] where we have evidence to suggest that two characters are not intended to be homages or different 'versions' of the same character. That said, I'll bow out if the quotation from ItsWalky speaks for the wiki as a whole. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:50, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:As I said, I don't consider Animated Sentinel Prime to share anything with G1 Sentinel Prime but a name. As such, Sentinel ''Major'' is an homage to Animated Sentinel Prime, and cramming him into G1 Sentinel Prime's page does him a disservice.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Well first, an analog is virtually the opposite of an homage. A character is an homage if they are designed to resemble another character WITHOUT actually BEING that character. An analog to a character actually IS the same character, only from another dimension. So Insecticon from Energon could be called an ''homage'' to the original Deluxe Insecticon Barrage because they share a similar paint job. They are, however, different and distinct characters. On the other hand, Energon Insecticon in the Dreamwave Comics is an ''analog'' to Energon Insecticon from the Energon cartoon. <br />
:As for your actual question...I don't really know what your actual question is. Practically speaking, I mean. Jetfire (G1) and Jetfire (Animated) are on two separate pages because they are from two separate continuity families, Primax and Malgus. There is a disamg at the top because of their similar (in this case identical) names. The reuse of the name alone isn't considered a homage, generally, because name reuse is just a fact of life in trademark reservation. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:45, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Xaaron- The issue that started this seems to be whether [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] and [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] have ''any'' relationship to each other beyond the name, be it through homage or being analogues. <br />
::I think there might be a difference of use of the word 'homage' between various parties here; ItsWalky and [[User:JimSorenson]] both used the term 'version', which Jim treated as synonymous with 'homage', and Walky identified it with 'analogue'. I chose to re-use the terms they were using, since those were at the heart of the disagreement.<br />
::In any case, my question is whether ItsWalky's statement that ''"This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters."'' as quoted above is valid. It suggests to me that the policy and/or consensus is that characters from different continuity families who share a name should be assumed to be analogous. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 23:08, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::No, that's not true. The Mini-Con Safeguard from Transformers Cybertron and the combo robot Safeguard from Transformers Animated are not analogs.<br />
:::But whether they're analogs or not, they're still from different continuity families and would be filed under different character pages. That's where your question breaks down for me: what are you expecting to do or not do differently based on the answer on our "policy"? What are the practical ramifications of your query? I feel like you're suggesting the answer to this analog / distinct character question of yours is going to have sweeping changes on how you plan to contribute to the wiki, but I can't see HOW. <br />
:::Basically...''What's your point''? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:24, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::My point was to find out if ItsWalky spoke for the wiki, or just himself. After all the back and forth arguing with him and JimSorenson over related issues, I'd rather go back to tackling unrelated topics for a while, like correcting typos in articles. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:50, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::The main purpose was related to the Sentinel Prime/Major example, though it's possible it might have other related purposes. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:00, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Third Party products such as Fansproject etc==<br />
There's a good amount of folk here who have a lot of these products. While their unofficialness obviously means they cannot have their own articles, would there be ''any'' positive sentiment to somehow giving them a mention? Say a point in the corresponding trivia section? Or failing that, an external link at the bottom of the [[Kitbash]] page to some other archive (if one even exists?)? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:08, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:They've already got a mention in the [[kitbashing]] article, and that suffices. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:21, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== 1993 European G1 character disambuigation. ==<br />
<br />
We do not seem to have any guidelines for the default franchise-of-origin disambuig for the characters from the 1993 European G1 line. And if there ''are'' guidelines, they sure aren't being followed.<br />
<br />
The main problem with this group is that all of them were sold in both the G1 and G2 lines in Europe, and many of them were also sold in the American G2 line. Because of this, there are three main groups:<br />
<br />
Group 1: Skyscorchers and Axelerators: The American releases at most differed in name and window color from the European releases. Determining which version was out first is nearly impossible, but they were clearly designed for the European market. We currently use (G2) as the default for all of them.<br />
<br />
Group 2: Color changers, Aguaspeeders, and Stormtroopers: The US only got the Aquaspeeder molds, but the US bios are, aside from the names, identical to Aquaspeeder and Stormtrooper bios. <br />
*Autobot Color Changer Drench has Aquaspeeder Jetstorm's bio and stats.<br />
*Autobot Color Changer Gobots has Aquaspeeder Deluge's bio and stats.<br />
*Decepticon Color Changer Deluge has Stormtrooper Hydradread's bio and stats.<br />
*Decepticon Color Changer Jetstorm has Stormtrooper Drench's bio and stats.<br />
<br />
The Color Changers have the same unknowns as Group 1. Currently, the G2 disambuig is used.<br />
<br />
Group 3: Lightformers and Trakkons. None were released in the US. Fearswoop uses the G1 disambuig.<br />
<br />
Group 4: Obliterators. Named "Pyro" and "Clench" in G1, and "Spark" and "Colossus" in G2. [[Clench (G2)]] is just plain wrong.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:26, 17 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's a tricky situation, but here are some similar cases that might help us decide:<br />
:1) [[Go-Bot (G2)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Laser Optimus Prime]]<br />
:We call these "Generation 2" despite [http://webspace.webring.com/people/ao/optimus7/G2Frenzy.jpg not having the term] [http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/105/434/692/O5GD.jpg on their packaging.] The timeframe and the faction symbols are enough.<br />
:2) [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2003)|''Universe'' "Spy Changers"]]<br />
:The first release of these toys was in packaging that just said "Transformers" with no subline, much like the Euro pre-G2 examples. But they were released again later in ''Universe'' packaging, which we use for our categorization.<br />
:If we apply those principles to your examples, then in every case I think we end up with G2. "Clench (G2)" is... odd, but not much odder than [[Double Clutch (G2)]].<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:31, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:: True, but the Gobots and Laser Prime still use the G2 version of the Transformers, but the 1993 Euro line still uses the 1992 logo. Hell, aside from the faction symbols, the 1993 toys use the 1992 EVERYTHING. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:48, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Shrug. It's not a perfect analog, but ultimately I don't think there is one. I personally don't see any way of getting an ironclad This Is It answer out of the question, but I do think the examples I gave present a pretty good guide if we want to use it. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:43, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::So should all of these transitional figures be moved to G2 disambigs if needed? Specifically, Should [[Fearswoop (G1)]] move to Fearswoop (G2)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:32, 25 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::If you're asking me, then yes. But the authority lies in the consensus of the mob (which seems to be pretty disinterested in the topic. Try moving the page! I bet you'd get some answers then.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:20, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Wow. I'd completely forgotten that G2 actually dropped the "Generation 2" from the packaging towards the end. Thanks. that's actually kind of good to know... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:01, 25 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== A Visual Representation of Transformer Anatomy ==<br />
<br />
For a very long time I've been fascinated with transformer hands and fingers, and was always noting the different ways they were portrayed in art and the toys. Sometimes they look like a painted gloved human hand, other times fingers (3, 4, 5, or more?) are like a bunch of linked short cylinders, and often they are made of various polygons with enormous variation. And then there are the 'hands' that are actually claws or pinchers, or (borg-like who needs a hand-on-this-arm?) weapons like laser cannons (A certain high-ranking one-eyed Decepticon comes to mind). Looking for any articles about hands brought me to the anatomy category page, and while skimming it I realized the obvious: I was looking at a list of pages many of which could easily be represented visually.<br />
<br />
Maybe it's been suggested before, and as near as I can tell it doesn't exist (yet), but I wonder why not have a page with a visual representation of transformer anatomy and links where possible. Some 'anatomy', like the software kind probably can't be represented pictorially, but certainly many (most?) could. It would take a lot of work from some folks skilled in illustration, but I think it'd be really cool to have a picture of a transformer (a generic male or one selected to be representative) with annotations of various anatomy, and a close-up of a head & face for head/face specific ones. There could also be a female version (for, say, heel struts, though too many specifics could easily be sexist) and maybe an animal/non-humanoid version. Cut-aways could reveal internal anatomy not easily represented with an exterior-only view and some non-anatomy (like kibble) could also be represented. I've even mused that such an illustration could be a transformer version of da Vinci's [[Wikipedia:Vitruvian_Man|Vitruvian Man] as was done before [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM15casey.jpg], though some readers might misunderstand and think it was an eight-limbed transformer.<br />
<br />
So, whadyathink? Is this an old, horrible idea that was harshly rejected years ago, a kinda-sorta OK one that is priority #4,896,929.6, or worst of all does exactly this very thing exist and I somehow missed it? {{unsigned|4.254.84.116}}<br />
:Finding said material varies between source to source. "[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]", I believe, had a few X-ray shots of the TFs (Optimus comes to mind easily), being a DK book. The most recent issue of TV Magazine has a few anatomy pictures of Animated Optimus, Bumblebee, and Starscream, but I'm not sure if earlier TV Magazine issues did so as well. I think they're rather scarce on both sides of the Pacific, though I could be wrong... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:05, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Anon poster seems to be suggesting that we make our own anatomy pictures. That's not really within the remit of this site, since we only use canonical information and therefore images. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Heh, I need sleep... But, that answers your question, anon. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:51, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Another canon image I just noticed is on Takara's [[World of Transformers]] site. There's a cutaway of [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:37, 24 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Planet Cybertron==<br />
:First, I'd like to point at two above unresolved matters about category names and G1.5 disambs.<br />
:Second, I'm currently motivated to update the information on the wiki regarding Cybertron locations. But I have no clue how to do it. Since we don't split them, can I just lump information from different continuities and/or continuity families together in the intro part and let the fiction section do the sourcing or should I keep the introduction to what usually amounts to "[...] is a city on Cybertron" and the contributions of various continuities unambiguously separated. Also, this whole city-state vs city thing as we've currently got it written down (mostly courtsey of the city template) is confusing the heck out of me. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:14, 27 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Google-rank milestone==<br />
For the first time that I've seen, a Google-search for "Transformers wiki" puts us at the top of the list, followed by Wikia and then Wikipedia. Well done, people! (Looking up character names tends to give the reverse order, but still.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:19, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I remember some months back, we got the #1 result when I checked, though it wasn't consistent in all areas (I made a thread at the Allspark and some people were getting us first, others weren't). Eventually, we sank back down to #2 again somehow. This is the first I've heard of anyone seeing us back at #1. Hopefully we'll stay there, this time! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:22, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I get us second (tfwiki.net), fourth (tfwiki.virtutechgames.com), fifth (174-143-26-81.slicehost.net), twentyfirst (174.143.26.81) and thirty third (en.tfwiki.net) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:32, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::...why on earth do we have so many aliases that are publically crawlable? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:46, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I PM'd Scout about it on AllSpark a while ago. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I get first... and Wikia isn't even on the first "screen" of results. ahahahah. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:48, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Oh, and because I forgot to mention it earlier, I'm getting us at #1, too (wikia at second, Wikipedia at 3rd). With any luck, we'll keep the rank this time and never have to worry about confusion with that swirling vortex of ineptitude ever again. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:27, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Key question... are you logged into your google account when you check? -Derik (not logged in)<br />
:::::I'm not logged into mine, but I still get us #1, Wikia #2, Wikipedia #3. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:49, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yay! (You'd be surprised how often people forget Google is customizing their search results.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:50, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Seems the result swings back and forth, sometimes we got first while sometimes second. (I don't have a Google account.) --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 02:01, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::I'm logged into Google, and I get wikia first, then us, then wikipedia. Could the difference be regional? I'm Canadian, if that helps. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Oddly I get us first if I log OUT of my gmail account, but second if I am logged in. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:06, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::The results are pretty volatile at the moment. We'd been showing at #1 for me for a few days before Jackpot mentioned it, but since then, I've only seen us coming up in second place. I really do think it would help us if we got the alias problem mentioned above sorted out so that Google was only indexing us once. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:39, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::Also people are now starting to link to us at the [http://www.metafilter.com/91256/Mad-Man-Mad-Men-Namor-sleeps-with-the-fishes wrong URL], which can only be bad for us. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:58, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::Yeah, we need to either throw a [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=156449 "no index" robots.txt] file on those other domains (then do [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=164734 this Webmaster Tools bit], if anyone's got those for our site), redirect them, or take them offline (depending on what would work best).<br />
:::::::::::Maybe someone should PM McFly on the Allspark, since that was mentioned as getting a response? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:52, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::The best way, IMHO, is to use a 301 response to direct them to the proper URL . I already PM'd McFly about this, and he said that Scout handles redirects. I didn't get any response when I PM'd her though. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::It's final exam time now. That might have something to do with it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 19:01, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::I don't know whether this is just me or not, but tfwiki.virtutechgames.com is throwing a "Page Not Found" at me right now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::It's not working for me either, looks like the alias has been deleted. Awesome! Now we just need to get the IP address, 174-143-26-81.slicehost.net and *.tfwiki.net to redirect and we're set! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Teletraan-1 just got linked on Penny Arcade's frontpage. Expect them to go out the top of Google and then have their server burst into flames. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:03, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Yep, they're on top for me, then their page on the fallen and then us[[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 06:21, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Pyro's Packaging Art Found (Hopefully) ==<br />
<br />
OK, I got a big TIF scan sent over from Graham at The Hub, which I present thusly: http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/pyro.tif because it needs some cleanup and I figured I'd let someone who knows better what they're doing do said cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:29, 14 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Hoorraaay! Cleaned up and put up. Thanks! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:24, 14 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== What the hell is emopanda? :D ==<br />
<br />
Hey, people have been asking me what the emopanda URL is that they see when they load up the wiki (I've seen it too). I recall it has something to do with Derik, but why is it loading when we load our wiki? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:42, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's Derik's site. He has a stylesheet file on there which has experimental stuff in it, which (theoretically) later gets moved to the global stylesheet here once it's all tested. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:55, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Userpage caps==<br />
Can we get a hardline policy on User Page sizes? Preferably, the smaller the better? I'm getting juuuuuuuuust a wee bit sick of the Recent Changes page being cluttered by people turning this wiki into a fucking Myspace account. That this recent one is ''not in English'' doesn't help. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:My guess is we could, but page size has little to do with the number of edits that can be done to it. So, is it worth bothering about a user page limit? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Perhaps a limit to the number of times a user page can be edited in a day. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 12:43, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Ditto. Also, I say we ban the hell out of user pages in other languages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:46, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::How about some simple rules?<br />
:::* '''ONE''' image for your page. That's all you need.<br />
:::* No collection listing. Nobody cares.<br />
:::* Keep it to one paragraph of standard info. This is not a dating site, we don't care about your likes and dislikes.<br />
:::* Listing ''work directly related to updating this wiki'' on top of the above-mentioned paragraph is fine. Projects on your plate, past completed ones, etc, all fine.<br />
:::* '''ENGLISH'''.<br />
:::* All User Pages are subject to mods going "NO" and taking a chainsaw on fire to it.<br />
:::I think this is not unreasonable. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:58, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::One more.<br />
::::A user page can only be edited X (we'll decide the exact number later) times a day. Any more and you are subject to being temporarily banhammered. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:03, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::So, would point 3 also forbid any stuff like personal canon or thoughts on canon? I kinda like those sections on user pages. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:06, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Basically, yes. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:08, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::I'm... with Geewunling, actually. Notes like personal canon and fave things are useful for knowing what a user's biases are and what areas of the wiki they're likely to work on, which I find interesting and useful.<br />
:::::::IMHO for the most part the real problem is people who make frequent edits to their userpage without making many wider wiki edits, not necessarily the content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::That can be pretty well covered in the initial paragraph. If you like BW best and think you'll do mostly that, fine, say so. We don't need your fanfic ideas. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:51, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::My user page should be the guideline for all of you. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:29, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I guess, to be straightforward with my opinion, if the person's not posting anything offensive, uploading multiple pictures, or cluttering up Recent Edits, I don't see how it matters all that much what a person has on their userpage.<br />
::::::::::If anything, there's some people I remember wishing had ''more'' information about themselves on their userpages, especially the admins. Makes it easier to get a mental map of which regular is which. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:32, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::That's my opinion, too. I don't think it matters what is on a user page, even *gasp* a foreign language. If the edits could be restricted to one a day though, that would be cool. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:36, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I fully support all those points. Our space should not be dedicated to MySpace accounts for Transformers nerds. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xfa27/Demolisher It could be worse...] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:19, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::All the better that we left. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
Hmmm ... what about something like all user page edits being automatically tagged as minor edits?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I don't hide minor edits, because even "minor" edits can be big fuckups. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:07, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
My userpage is the one we should all aim to emulate. X-P - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Is there a function that would hide all user page edits? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Select "User" from the Namespace dropdown and then tick the "Invert selection" box. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:37, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
===No collection listing ===<br />
[[Greg Sepelak|M Sipher]] suggested that above. Can I (or any other regular, non-admin user) tell people to remove their collection lists? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 16:04, 25 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I don't think so, but I sure wish we could. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Good idea from the other place, no really! ==<br />
<br />
Looking over the other Transformers wiki, I noticed that their recent changes takes multiple successive edits of the same page by the same user and shows them as a single listing (with a clickable drop down showing more details). Is there any way we can get this function here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:10, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:It doesn't work like that. It actually takes multiple edits of the same page within a specific timeframe and shows them as a single listing. Whether it's the same user or not doesn't factor in. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:If you mean the enhanced recent changes page, we already have that here. You can turn it on in your preferences. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:54, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I noticed the point Blackout made after examining it more, it still seemed like a useful function - particularly with some of the problems we've had with "clogging recent changes". Good to know we have it here. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:43, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's a good function (on Wikia, it only appear for anon and bot users) since it is much more convenience. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 00:05, 27 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Wikia's New Initiative ==<br />
<br />
Apparently, they're now offering to absolutely remove all ads from small wikis, for 19.95 dollars a month.<br />
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Why am I not surprised? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:10, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Hahahahaha. That's cheaper than what we pay for hosting, but still sooooo not worth it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:14, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::It's even more stupid once you realize that some wikis are incredibly small, edited by a small group of people, and the only anons are regular editors forgetting to log in. (My wiki in a nutshell.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:20, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Those are about the only wikis that would actually be eligible for this, since they have to get less than 20,000 page views a month. For comparison, we get about 8 times that per ''day''. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:21, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::And anyone running that small a wiki who's willing to throw money at it would be much better off getting their own webspace for $10/month and installing MediaWiki software on it (not to mention getting their own domain and POP e-mail and being able to upload and do whatever they want with the rest of their webspace). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:40, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::They're only giving it to the first 100 wikis. I'm pretty much ready to take bets on how long until Wikia realizes only twelve people in the universe have gone for it and now they must make it 19.95 dollars a ''week ''in order to make any sort of profit. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:34, 29 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Image leeching ==<br />
Is there much we can do about people leeching images off the wiki? That is, people on forums directly linking the image off of our server and not bothering to rehost it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:38, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I believe there was a discussion about this at some point. The general consensus was to somehow get all hotlinked images to change to another image or something. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:47, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::There's plenty that can be done. The problem has been getting the folks with server access to actually do it. :> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:55, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, I've brought this up a few times to no avail :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:05, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::But seriously, people on forums are not going to stop directly linking images (thus costing you money and making the wiki perform more sluggishly than necessary) until something is done about this. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:50, 17 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Have you emailed [[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] about it? Not sure how often she checks the Community Portal. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:34, 17 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Good idea, I just did so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:27, 18 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::She never got back to me. Now what? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:47, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::That's about as far as I got with the subdomain issue too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::So, since the site's owners don't seem to think this to be a major issue in their lack of interest in this problem, shall I stop asking TFW2005 staff to remove hotlinked images? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:53, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I guess it depends on how often they're doing it and why. It's kind of nice to be able to inline graphics into threads for the purposes of discussion. If that's what's happening, then, no, I don't really care that much. In fact, that's pretty cool. Now, if someone's inlining, say, several megs at a time or using one of our images as a .sig or user avatar, then that I don't like. But I feel those are incidents that are isolated enough for us to take care of them on an individual basis. If I'm wrong about the severity of the problem, then I'm willing to change my mind. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:00, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Slicehost RSS Rerouting ==<br />
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Is there any way to get the RSS feed to never switch over to the Slicehost IP? Maybe I'm the only one who bothers subscribing to the Recent Changes feed, but it's really annoying ending up with dozens of duplicate entries constantly because the feed keeps switching between sending the TFWiki.net server entries and the Slicehost duplicate entries. (Not to mention that accidentally clicking to the site from the Slicehost entries instead of the TFWiki ones lands you on the wrong server for editing. Been tripped up by that a couple times, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:35, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Out of interest, what are you using as an RSS reader? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:05, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I just use Opera's built-in RSS reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:34, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Transform into other bots==<br />
I was wondering if this gimmick has ever been done. As an example: Ratchet transforms into Ironhide, or something like that.<br />
Its odd..a transformer becoming another one, but I HAD to ask if it'd be done or not.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]<br />
:Bizarrely, [[:Image:Skywarpatron.jpg|it almost was]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:54, 21 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Technically it ''has'' been done, if you count [[Shockwave (Animated)]] and [[Punch (G1)]]. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:40, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Anon Criticism==<br />
I find this wiki to be a piece of shit. What did you hope to accomplish wih these captions? Why didn't you go to Uncyclopedia to make your articles funny? But they probably wouldn't accept on account of how lame it is. -General Q-Nek<br />
:I just realized that by reverting your post, I wasn't following my own advice. Most people here like the jokes, if you don't like them start your own Transformers related wiki. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:31, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Heck, go help the Wikia. Goodness knows they need it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::But the Wikia also has jokes on it, so it won't help our humourless anon at all! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:43, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::An entire wiki delivered completely seriously would be monotonous. As the [[Transformers Wiki:Caption]] page explains, serious captions tend to be redundant, and since Transformers is a (mostly) light-hearted kids' franchise, we might as well have fun with it. Captions are also a reward for users who are frequently helpful. And Uncyclopedia is different; their wiki is devoted entirely to nonsense, and for the most part we deliver actual information in addition to these funny captions and sometimes comments. That's how I see it. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 18:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::To abates, there is some talk at the wikia about getting away from the funny. If our anonymous friend can point to an instance where the humor gets in the way of the information, that particular joke might need to be changed. Otherwise, I've gotta agree with NCZ - it's about giant frickin' robots from outer space, how serious can it really be? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:00, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yeah, what Khajidha said. While I also agree on principle that I think a serious TF wiki is probably pointless, if Wikia has to keep existing at all I'd rather see it finally go in that direction to stop being a fifth-rate copy of us. And our anon here would probably be better served helping the swap there than mouthing at us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Out of the two admins over at the Wikia, at least of them (Xeno) is firmly against losing the humour, so unfortunately I don't think it'll happen while he's in charge. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Pity. I guess Wikia's going to keep going nowhere, then, until they realize that almost everyone who's OK with editing a funny wiki is already here with us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Hurr Hurr Hurrr!!! I was just joking! I wanted to see if it would get deleted. The jokes aren't to bad. ( but im still in favor of Uncyclopedia's jokes.) I actually kudos this Wikia when it comes to delivering information. A thousand lamentations. again, I thought this would be deleted, I just wanted to see how often this page would be checked. ( I guess i could of done that more efficiently.)-General Q-Nek<br />
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Also, I enjoy how calm people were when replying. I wish I had some way of helping, but I'm more of novice to the deep Transformer knowledge.-General Q-Nek<br />
:People commenting on the humor is a semi-frequent thing, so... you get used to hauling out the counterarguments.<br />
:As for how often pages get checked, most of the regulars keep frequent tabs on everything. If you want to track changes to any specific pages, you can create an account and add pages to your watchlist. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:24, 26 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Interesting, thanks for the info!-General Q-Nek<br />
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=="Games" vs. "Fiction"==<br />
I noticed in [[Optimus Prime (Prime)]] that info from ''Exodus'' is filed under "Fiction", while ''War for Cyberton'' and ''Cybertron Adventures'' is in a separate "Games" section. I didn't think this was how we did things, so I was going to put everything under "Fiction" and do away with "Games", but I double-checked some movieverse articles to be sure, and lo and behold "Games" is separate there too (such as in [[Shockwave (Movie)]]). This was an explicit change - looking in the history, the Shockwave article used to have an all-inclusive "Fiction" section. Why was this changed? Games are fiction too. I see absolutely no reason to separate them, any more than we would separate the ''Find Your Fate'' books. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:48, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Splitting off video game information helps pages from getting too unwieldy. Pages such as [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s are much more readable this way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:51, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That seems really arbitrary to me. I guess there's little harm done in doing that to Cheetor's page, since the BW games are so story-light and have no impact on other fiction. But for TF:Prime it seems anti-informative: Unlike the BW games, WfC is a defining element of the larger novel/cartoon storyline. Shunting it off into a "Games" ghetto breaks up the information flow pointlessly. I think a "Games" section should be the exception, not the rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:59, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I'd actually treat WFC as the exception. It is the only video game that ever "mattered" from a story perspective. With that in mind, I would include it within Fiction. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:02, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I'd say its fiction matters very little, since the novel ''Exodus'' includes its events and supercedes it, since it's apparently written straight from the new "Prime" story bible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:39, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::The Movieverse games are pretty story-heavy. If you look at [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], the game writeups are substantial, and there's nothing more superfluous about their continuities than the Titan comics or the Cyber Mission cartoons, which of course ''are'' included in "Fiction". I agree with the general principle that unwieldiness is a problem worth addressing, but this is an incredibly arbitrary way to fight it as an across-the-board rule. Scalpels and hammers and all that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I think I was the one who started separating them as I wrote the sections. I mainly did it for layout reasons (I prefer to make separate sections clearly defined), and I figure that given video games are usually the least-edited types of articles on this wiki, they were considered to be a lesser form of fiction than other stuff (as seen by Walky's comment about it not mattering). Also, until WFC, video game fiction tended to be splinter continuities. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Walky's point--and it is a pertinent one, that I hadn't considered--is that in time WFC could prove to be just as much a splinter continuity. Exodus appears to be the "real" story--it certainly includes more concepts, more back history, and more of the developing brand structure that Aaron discussed in his "Once Upon A Time On Cybertron" shpiel at Botcon. WFC might differ from this "core" story the same way basically all the other games differ from theirs--and most of us ''at this point in time'' see it the other way around because we've been hearing about WFC as being the next main fiction product in and of itself since about last December, whereas ''Exodus'' was announced much more recently, seemingly out-of-the-blue, and had no advance samples / screenshots / P.R. that could compare with the WFC blitz. In other words, they treated the "real" story as an afterthought, probably because they know young kids are more into gaming than books, but in the long run WFC's fiction will matter for less. So... uhh... maybe it should stay in "Games" after all? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:44, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Sure, I get that. Even accepting that Exodus is going to be dominant (which at the moment is still a guess, albeit an educated one), I really dislike the idea of game-fiction being walled off by default just because of its medium. It's like we're saying that games ''can't'' matter. If we're going to start making value judgements about which fiction is primary and which is of secondary notice - not a bad idea, mind - I think we should do it right and apply it across the board. Like I said above, there's no real difference in those terms between the movieverse games and the Titan comics, so if one deserves to be sectioned off, then so does the other. I could see dividing the "Fiction" section between "Core continuities" and "Offshoots & micro-continuities", allowing the writeups on the movies + IDW comics to be read through without interruption. That could also help out some of our runaway G1 pages. But as it is now, picking on games is just a half-measure to muddled and weirdly prejudicial effect. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:28, 4 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Hall of Fame "faction" markers?==<br />
It dawns on me that perhaps up in the top-right with the other faction markers, we should have something indicating that this person/character is now part of the Transformers Hall of Fame. Perhaps a silver Matrix, to go along with the trophies from BC. Of course, the way Hasbro sees characters, we'd be giving this tag to four different Bumblebees, but still. I think it'd be a nice addition. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:05, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Taking the fact that they're all one character in Hasbro's eyes, should we tag the disambiguation page as well? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::No, because that's not strictly true. Predacon Megatron is apparently considered a separate "entity" from G1/Movie/Animated/Prime Megatron. Mini-Con Shockwave certainly wouldn't be considered the same as G1/En/Movie/Prime Shockwave. And let's not even go into the problems raised by putting it on the "Dinobot" disambig. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Point. But how far do we go with each "character"? Does RID count? It got no love during the clip shows. What about the Optimus cloned and tortured to become Nemesis Prime? What about Shattered Glass? If we limit ourselves to what Hasbro showed in the clip shows, then we would lose Animated Grimlock, had he won. So how far to go with this? Just hit the big ones (G1/UT/Movie/Animted/Prime) and be done with it, or go further? I just want to see this get fleshed out before we start. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::SG Prime actually was in the display case and apparently "is" Optimus Prime as far as the Hall is concerned. Yeah. So moving forward, I would suggest making a parallel structure for everybody involved: that is, if ANYBODY got a SG / UT / whatever version as "themselves," then everybody else could be seen as getting it too and, thus, SG Grimlock is "himself" and would have gotten the Matrix icon. <br />
::::The RID thing bugs me--need to look more closely at those Hall display pics and see if there was ANY relevant merch in there at all. If it wasn't.... I guess we really would leave them out. It's no harder to see RID Megs and UT Megs as "being" "the" Megatron, but... this is an area where we shouldn't try to make the rules. I just wish the people who did make them had been more consistent about it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:56, 2 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
:::::Nope, nuttin' there from RID. I looked back through the display pics. Everybody has the extended G1-iverse plus Movie and Animated. Two had UT and one had SG. I guess those are the "favored" continuities and the ones in which their character analogues would get whatever icon we choose to give. And as Siph said, there was no display "crossover" from Beasts to anywhere else, so Optimus Primal isn't Optimus Prime and we are spared that degree of headache. Though here's another one: even though Hasbro had full access to the toys, they DIDN'T include Generations Prime/Megs/BB in the displays, so does that mean the Prime characters are not "themselves"? But Shattered Glass IS? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I bet RID clips didn't show up because of the usual Disney stuff. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:29, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I think you are over thinking it. The thing to ask yourself is, would Hasbro even consider RID Prime or Predacon Megatron for a spot of their own in the Hall of Fame? No, probably not, since "Optimus Prime" and "Megatron" pretty much covers them. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
I would extend this to also putting gold Matrix icons on the real-life people that got hall-of-famed.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:47, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I concur. At least that's easy. We don't have multiple Peter Cullen articles floating around here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:49, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:For an image, how about the [[:Image:BotCon2010-HOFkeepsake.jpg|silhouette of the statue seen here]]? It could be cleaned up a bit and made black and white. It could also be a little larger than our current icons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:54, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That is totally not going to be recognizable at faction icon size.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:55, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
[[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|thumb|right]]<br />
It'll have to wait until I get home from work tonight, but I feel confident I could make an icon based off of the stylized Matrix and starburst circle around it that the tops of the trophies had. I'll post it here once I have it done, and we can tweak it if we don't like it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Alright, here's my first stab at it. If it were faction-icon sized, it'd look like this: [[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|30px]]<br />
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:Whaddaya think? Will that hold up to being recolored gold and silver?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:07, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Hot damn, looks good to me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:33, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Looks great! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:40, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Alright, the factions template code for these are "hofgold" and "hofsilver". I've tagged all the real-life inductees, as well as put a silver icon on Dinobot, but now I'm heading out to do a grocery run. Anybody should be able to tag the rest now, but I'll work on tagging some when I get back if there are any left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== The 11000th article ==<br />
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I think was [[Assembly]]. Wheeeee! Sorry, Irvine, you missed it by one... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== BigBadToyStore ==<br />
<br />
Does that deserve an article yet? (maybe to go in the "Retailers" category) They got their first Hasbro exclusive (see http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=has19150&mode=retail). [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:02, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== What's Canon For Each Continuity ==<br />
<br />
OK, after watching one seriously stupid and quite frankly embarrassing mess of a thread on the Allspark, I feel a need to say something. Namely that I'm really tired of our tendency to apply cross-continuity retcons all over the place.<br />
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Yes, everything official is canon for some continuity. But the key here is SOME CONTINUITY. I think we need to stop treating any details that take place in one continuity as if they definitely for sure affect another separate continuity. We need to start dropping the 100% in-universe conceit just a little and acknowledging the real-life reality of things. Namely that even if elements of one continuity are borrowed into another, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers of that continuity borrowed from have to acknowledge it in their own storyline. In fact, in some cases they even explicitly don't.<br />
<br />
Just to borrow one scenario, every time we go "Oh, well, this event that happened in an Animated book/FunPub story uses some Movie concept, so obviously it's now canon for the Movie fiction too!" we just confuse the matter by presenting as canon for the Movie continuity things that have not actually happened in the actual Movie fiction, and may never actually happen in the future. Since the Movie writers--to be quite blunt and bringing in a dose of cold hard reality--probably do not know or care what an Animated reference or a FunPub story have done in their universe.<br />
<br />
I'm not saying we shouldn't document this sort of cross-continuity mention at all, but merging pages based on it and writing it up in the main continuity sections and all that, well, it's just really getting to the point of being stupid and confusing. I'm starting to feel like, instead of getting to just write stuff up based on what happened in the actual fiction for each continuity, or what the writers who are actually in charge of writing each continuity actually said about their own continuity, now I gotta worry about mind-reading the wiki's pet fanon theories about which things that were never meant to be related by the actual authors go together after all.<br />
<br />
And when it leads to things like some of us on the forums actually trying to tell the authors that we know better than they do about what they have planned for ''their own storylines''... just, come on people.<br />
<br />
Yeah, I know I'm probably the only person who actually feels this way and you're just going to heap insults on me, but I'm just tired of this, especially to the degrees it's been going on lately. It makes the wiki confusing and ridiculous for me to both read and edit, especially when done in the sheer volume it's been done lately, and I don't like being in the position of feeling this negatively towards our setup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:22, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:This is a little too generic a rant to be helpful. Obviously, you're talking about the Sideways merger. What else, specifically, is being affected by this sort of thing? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:32, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::And Alignment supposedly being canon. And the renaming of the G1 characters. And merging Alpha Trion's pages. And really the whole multiversal singularity in general and everything related to that. And... etc. etc. (At least the whole thing with Sentinel Major was finally stopped by the affected author in question putting his foot down and people eventually relenting.) It's been bugging me for a while, but the mess lately was really kind of just the last straw where it tipped into "OK, this is just starting to get unignorably dumb" territory. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:50, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Whatever Hasbro approves of is canon. It doesn't matter if people are annoyed by it or it goes against original authorial intent. Transformers is Hasbro's property and if they sign their name off on something, it is canon.<br />
::::Pretty much. There's no question a lot of fanon made its way into the AAII, but it's official now. You can blame the writers for taking advantage of their official positions to win internet arguments, but you can't blame the Wiki for acknowledging what they got published. As for Alpha Trion, he now has the dubious honor of being one of the 13, a multiversal singularity. Merging his pages had to be done -- he can't just be one of the 13 in SOME continuities, b/c the whole point of the 13 up til now is that there's only one of each of them in the multiverse. Does it make sense that G1 Alpha Trion and SG Alpha Trion are the same guy? No, not really. But it's the officially mandated position of Hasbro now, so...roll with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:10, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::It's official for Animated. But last I knew, Sorenson was not licensed to write fiction for anything but the Animated continuity, so what he says in the Almanac is only canon for Animated and is a footnote at best in those other continuities.<br />
:::::Now, when the actual Movie writers make some fiction officially licensed as a part of the Movie continuity saying that ROTF Sideways is the same all the other Sideways, then it'll actually be full canon for the Movie continuity.<br />
:::::Likewise, Alpha Trion is a member of the 13 in Exodus, which is a part of the Prime continuity. I missed the part where that constitutes official fiction for any of the other continuities. Again, footnote sure, but until we get official fiction corroborating from those other continuities...<br />
:::::He certainly can be a singularity in only those continuities that actually use the singularity. Again, step outside of the in-universe a bit and accept that in the real world the different writing teams can and do end up doing different things with their characters and storylines. They don't always fit into a nice tidy bow, and I do not think it should be our job to fanwank it into doing so; it should just be our job to present the canon as-is for each continuity's actual fiction, even if that means some contradictions.<br />
:::::Like I said, we should not be misrepresenting things that did not happen in the official fiction specific to a continuity as if it actually did, just because it happened in an entirely separate continuity.<br />
:::::Because, what Exodus does is no more "officially mandated by Hasbro" than what IDW does, what Animated does, what the Movies do, etc. It's ''all'' official fiction. For ''some'' continuity. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:35, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::The entire point of a multiversal singularity is that who and what they are is official across ALL continuities. To say Alpha Trion can be a multiversal singularity only in Prime continuity is a contradiction of terms.<br />
::::::And "official by Hasbro" means "official by Hasbro". I don't understand where this dissection of Animated and Movie universes is coming from. Sorenson wasn't given a license to Animated continuity and Michael Bay a license to Movie continuity...they were each just told to make something for Hasbro's Transformers property. The franchise indicator / universal stream breakdown for the fiction is an IN-fiction construct, not a legal distinction of rights between contributors. The movie writers don't have any more rights to those characters or properties than Sorenson, or Fun Pub, or IDW. They're all working for Hasbro. Like that quote from Nick Roche about how he thought he'd get to tell the story of Kup's reactivation, but IDW let Shane McCarthy do what he wanted with the character. IDW Kup is IDW's baby, not Roche's. They got to decide when and where he was used. And Sideways (ROTF) is Hasbro's baby, not some movie writer's. Sorenson was authorized to write about Hasbro's intellectual property called ''The Transformers'', employing the universal stream distinction for their individual franchises. Ergo, anything published in Allspark Almanac II was true for anything it said it was true for...it wasn't somehow "limited" just to Animated concepts. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:55, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::You're right that that's a contradiction in terms. But it only matters as much as we care about presenting the multiverse as though it's a real, consistent world. It's a fun conceit, and it subtly underlies a lot of what we do... but it's worth questioning. Which do we value more when there's a conflict: the integrity of a series, or multiversal decrees? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:16, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::Hasbro "signs off" on the notion that everybody ever named Optimus Prime is the exact same character. Their use of terminology is not exactly the same as ours. We've been working around that for years. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:03, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Good point. It's also been [[Continuity#Unified Japanese continuities|officially declared]] that RiD and the movieverse are in-continuity with G1. We never even ''tried'' to take that seriously, so why should be obligated to accept these other cross-continuity declarations?<br />
:::::We're at a very interesting decision point here. Before it was ever acknowledged officially, the idea of the TF multiverse was accepted by fans as simply an in-universe way of giving equal regard to all of the contradictory series. But over the last decade or so, the multiverse has oozed into canon in a slipshod, right-hand-doesn't-know-what-the-left-is-doing, nobody-at-the-wheel way. And we who have taken up the burden of documenting it are starting to feel the strain of untangling the crush of continuities elbowing each other and stepping on each other's feet.<br />
:::::I'm not sure what the ideal approach is; I wonder how comic-book wikis have dealt with this. My personal preference, as I [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Alpha_Trion|elaborated elsewhere]], is to try to portray each series as it defines itself, giving only passing credence to cross-series retcons and decrees. I certainly haven't thought through all the practical ramifications, but it seems the most rational starting point to me.<br />
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:58, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::RID (or ''Car Robots'', rather) is absolutely in the G1 continuity family. Just on the Japanese side. The movie thing only came up in one website timeline. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:12, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::You are mistaken. RID is not in G1, but Car Robots is. Our RID is a distinct cluster (Viron) from G1 (Primax). RID and CR are in different clusters. But to keep us from having duplicate articles for everybody in Car Robots/RID, we note what's going on (or we should). We had this discussion a while ago, and I guess you weren't there or something. Japan once claimed that the movie (well, their version of the movie) took place in G1. This didn't end up happening and Japanese stuff since has ignored that tidbit, but even if it hadn't, their movie is not the same "universal stream" as ours to begin with. It would be the same thing as RID/CR. We don't ignore these things. --[[Special:Contributions/65.60.140.213|65.60.140.213]] 00:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Thank you for the clarification. And to clarify my own words, I never meant to suggest that we did or should ''ignore'' anything. It's all a matter of relative value. If, for instance, we placed a high value on the Japanese timeline and the attendant CR/RiD split, we WOULD have separate articles or more prominent declarations or ''something'' more than we currently do, which is just about jack (as evidenced by my ignorance). On the flipside, we ARE placing a high value on the FunPub model of the multiverse, letting it dictate article structure and primary presentation. We're even letting it define post-FunPub claims: As far as I know, all that the ''Prime'' universe has said about its Alpha Trion is that he was one of the original 13 TFs, a claim that has no multiversal relevance at ALL unless you apply the FunPub notion that The 13 are singularities. If we valued the FunPub model at the same level we do the Japanese continuity, we wouldn't be arguing over how that chain of cross-continuity associations should define our article structure. We'd just default to the normal continuity-family schema and make notes as appropriate. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::Well, we have a separate [[:Category:Car Robots characters|category]] with all of the alternate names. We also have write ups for [[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Kiss Players|Brave Maximus's adventures in ''Kiss Players'']]. What is it you're looking for to prove we acknowledge CR as part of the G1 family? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:57, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::If you want to argue it some more, Jackpot, [[Talk:Robots_in_Disguise_(franchise)#Car_Robots|have at it]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:58, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::Thanks for the link. I did indeed miss that whole discussion. But I have less than zero desire to argue against anything in it, and you're missing my point completely if you think that's what I'm even talking about. Yes, fine, we take the Japanese CR/G1 thing seriously, but even Interrobang's examples still demonstrate that we acknowledge it ''secondarily,'' through redirects and notes. The end result of that linked discussion was that we DON'T change our article structures or primary presentations to accomodate it. As opposed to the FunPub model of the multiverse, which we HAVE been allowing to dictate our presentation, at least up until the new Alpha Trion thing generated this debate. All I'm saying is that we have more than one established option for dealing with cross-continuity declarations, which means the question of how we deal with singularities isn't as open-and-shut as some think it is. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::You do have to agree that the CR/RID thing is a special case in that it would require that we have 100-plus articles that are exactly the same other than what they're named at the top. (And X-Brawn's personality would be different.) This is not the case for multiversal stuff, since it does not require us to be redundant on such a massive scale. I'm not sure why you think our attempt at avoiding massive redundancy should dictate how we treat entirely dissimilar things. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::I'm not saying that the CR-G1 thing should ''dictate'' what we do the FunPub stuff, just that it's a precedent worth considering. In fact, I believe you and I are closer in principle than you think. If we allowed the Japanese model of the multiverse to guide our presentation, we would indeed have to do this massively redundant re-org, but we've collectively decided it's not worth it, so we don't. You and I are on the same page there. What I'm doing is using the same principle to say that we likewise don't have to let the FubPub model of the multiverse make us jump up and rearrange article content every time we hear a whisper of "singularity." We can still present all the same information, but reprioritize it ''underneath'' our tried-and-true foundation of dividing articles by continuity-family.<br />
:::::::::::::Here's an example of how this might work (I'm thinking out loud here, so don't take this as me drawing a line in the sand or whatever): In Alpha Trion's case, we could keep all the pages separate but, say, add a line to the end of each intro: "According to some sources, this Alpha Trion is the same individual as all the rest," with appropriate links. It would be more prominent than burying it in "Trivia," but not so dominant that it dictates our entire presentation. It also would give breathing room to the various ways the character has been portrayed, so the reader can get a better sense of the pieces that make up the whole, rather than get a giant, muddled, ill-conceived "whole" that we all think is kind of silly anyway. The ''Prime'' version of AT would be written up with a more multiversal slant than the rest, of course, but I don't think we'd need to jam ''everything'' onto his page to get that point across. In the end, we would still be documenting all of the info and ignoring nothing, but I think the presentation would be much more in-line with the reality of how the character has actually been written over the years.<br />
:::::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:28, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Yeah, I lean about the same way as Jackpot. The Multiverse thing was fine when it was just a vague umbrella to tie together a hundred different continuities. But having one story or source reach out and re-write details of half a dozen other stories at the same time? I dunno so much about that. Seems to me that things like "Alpha Trion the old doddering cartoon guy is a multiversal singularity according to whatever source" ought to be kept in a Notes box or section, not integrated alongside info that actually came directly from the G1 cartoon. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:15, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::There's an irony in the fact that the multiverse started as a tool for the fans to keep order and sanity in spite of the TFverse's freewheeling structure. I remember for YEARS the doctrine of "everything is canon, there are just multiple continuities" had to be diligently repeated in forum threads before it took hold in fandom zeitgeist. But now that the creators have gotten into the multiverse game without giving up the loose approach, our tool has been turned against us. There's no handy maxim to settle things anymore. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:It is a little bit more difficult to brush these things off when the fiction is explicitly dealing with "The [[Multiverse]]". It is officially establishing new facts in multiple timestreams. I say this as someone who doesn't always like it when long-time nameless things get retroactive names. The Alignment thing is kind of wonky. It goes beyond the Multiverse and sort of breaks the fourth wall and directly tweaks real-world information. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:37, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My prediction: this Multiverse hogwash will get way too overcomplicated. It's then going to get some much tangled up, no one will ever be able to figure out anything. Giant crisis cross-over's gonna happen, DC Comics style. Continuity will get completely rebooted. The Fandom will flip their collective shit over it. I'll be here chilling while everyone's still throwing around cluster f-bombs. Don't worry about it guys, it's not our jobs to fix it, just to record it as it happens. Write it all down, let Hasbro sort it out. :P --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 02:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I think that's already happening with ''Exodus''{{'}}s continuity mixing (although it contradicted the game lol). ''Transformers: Prime'' probably doesn't just mean the show's focus on what it means to be a Prime, but also literally being an [[Wikipedia:Earth Prime|Earth Prime]] for the multiverse. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 04:53, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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''Disclaimer: I like they way we have been doing things and don't mind multiversal retcons. It's all just fiction, one continuity effecting another is cool to me, and the more layers it gets the more fun, IMO.'' '''THAT SAID:''' If there's a conflict, I'm with the "ours is not to reason why (or make un-stupid) ours is but to record" crowd. When a new source changes a past source I say we give '''NEITHER''' precedence but record both with equal weight on the page. One Alpha Trion page, but we make it very clear on the page that X is what he was like in the G1 toon, and Y is what a later source says he is. Put the focus on simply '''Recording Information''' rather than prioratizing it. It may require stepping "out of universe" a little more often in our entries, but that's a good thing if it clarifies the expression of information, our main goal. (Just like how we forgo humorous picture captions when we need a real one to express something clearly to the reader.) My 2-cents.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 07:31, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Just a side note, my 3rd cent if you will, this is pretty much already how we do [[Unicron]], with details of his various retconed backstories and the current story's conflicts all recorded "Out of universe" clearly and prominently on the page. Its a good model for Alpha Trion, Sideways and all to follow, IMO. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 09:28, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Sound good to me. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 10:42, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I'm with Zac on this. My understanding is Alpha Trion is now officially a multiversal singularity solely because someone put up a slide with his name on it at BotCon. If that's all we've got to go on, it's obviously not going to make much sense, but that's not Hasbro's problem -- they can't make announcements in a time and manner that makes it easy for the Wiki to record the information. We just have to roll with the punches and make the changes that are necessary to reflect the official information. There's no point in complaining about the fact that this information exists; that's an issue for message boards or your blog.<br />
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::So A3 is a multiversal singularity now. Them's the breaks. If we need to do some tongue-in-cheek writing to acknowledge it (like the openings for [[Scrapper (G1)#Cartoon continuity|Scrapper]] and [[Scavenger (G1)#Cartoon continuity|Scavenger]] in their cartoon fiction section), then we do it. But arguing about this and the AAII and whether official info counts or doesn't count unless it was published in the right medium or with the right franchise header is asinine. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 10:37, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not asinine at all. Different branded fiction in the TFverse has different editorial and writing boards writing it. Different companies have different licenses to create specific types of media, explicitly not being allowed to create media they're not licensed for. Hasbro has demonstratively shown a very anal and strong hand in making sure that things like the Movie comics fit into canon. In at least one case we know of (FunPub), there are even specific mandates about which continuities can't be directly written in/for by that company and which continuities aren't affected by their fiction. So Hasbro, at least, is actually shown to be very clear about who can write in what medium and for what storyline, and what is and isn't allowed in a certain storyline.<br />
:::Meanwhile, I have no problem acknowledging that Trion is a singularity in those continuities that have one. But the fact of the real-life situation is that not every continuity uses the concept.<br />
:::We need to accept that the real-life factual way this all has been working up until now does not always fit tidily or work how we wish it would work. And like I said, it's our job to report on what officially happened, not our fanwank theories. Especially when this wiki is theoretically supposed to be for those fans looking for information on what actually has happened in official fiction, not what we wish would happen. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:05, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Saying FunPub can't publish movie material b/c Hasbro won't allow it is one thing; saying material that WAS published should be ignored or disavowed is another. Again, assumptions -- you have no evidence that Hasbro said the Allspark Almanac was NOT allowed to reference other continuities, and the Almanac itself is evidence that Hasbro DID allow it. The proof is in the publication...to go beyond that is you assuming you know Hasbro's policies better than the Hasbro employees who allowed the Almanac to be printed in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 12:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Actually, it's the other way around. Since the Almanac is branded only as a guide to Animated (and thus very likely did not go through the same editorial process that the branded fiction in the other continuities goes through, only Animated's process), and Hasbro has been shown to be very anal about the info that goes into its officially branded fiction in other continuities, you need proof that Hasbro approved the Almanac as anything but a guide to Animated. Anything else is an unfounded assumption with no proof. Especially when, like I said, we instead have explicit proof that continuities are not always obligated to acknowledge cross-continuity mentions, and that some companies aren't even allowed to write any direct canon at all in some continuities.<br />
:::::The only thing the publication of the Almanac proves is that it was approved as Animated fiction, since that's what it's branded and marketed as. Going beyond that is you assuming you know Hasbro's policies at all. Because I've never seen anything that indicates that Hasbro considers cross-continuity retcons to be binding, and in fact have seen several indications that they don't, so I sure as heck am not going to be making any assumption about that matter.<br />
:::::On top of that, when it comes to Sentinel Major, we know 100% for certain that the Almanac was not approved by Hasbro as being binding to FunPub fiction, based on Pete stating it's not as FunPub's Head Editor, so that calls into doubt its so-called applicability to any other continuity as well. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:44, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::No, Jeysie...no. A thousand times no. "The only thing the publication of the Almanac proves is that it was approved <strike>as Animated fiction</strike>." You're the one assuming the Animated brand has weight and meaning beyond being a mast head. You're the one assuming Sorenson was told he can only write Animated fiction. You're the one assuming b/c FunPub has a certain type of limitation, every other publication has something similar even though we've heard nothing about that from Hasbro or the writing team. And you're the one assuming that Hasbro didn't mean to publish things it actually DID publish.<br />
::::::All the assumptions here are on you. I don't need to prove your elaborate series of assumptions about the inner workings of Hasbro are false. You need to prove they are true. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:08, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Yes, a thousand times yes. If anyone can publish any fiction in any continuity at any time, why bother branding it or having dedicated regular writing teams or anything at all? Why not just brand everything as Transformers with zero differences and let all the writers write whatever they want in any series?<br />
:::::::Why would Hasbro work closely with teams like the WFC folks or the Movie comic folks to make sure everything matches up the way they want it if they didn't care about the continuities of those series? Why would Hasbro do things like disallow FunPub from writing their own OC ever again because they want to use him in their new continuity? Why would they turn around and give one-liner cameos in completely unrelated fiction a free pass to affect those other continuities?<br />
:::::::Yes, I do assume that the Animated brand has weight beyond being a masthead. If this very wiki assumes that the logo has meaning for the toys, why is the fiction about those toys magically exempt? It fits into franchises exactly the same way, and indeed we actually have made decisions on this very precept. (The discussion of treating the ROTF toys ''and fiction'' as separate from the 2K7 line, and whether we should treat the SG ''fiction'' as SG vs. as Timelines-branded fiction comes to mind off the top of my head.)<br />
:::::::Not only that, but the Almanac is very clearly being marketed to customers as being based in Animated, as a guide to Animated. There's literally nothing about the Almanac at all that says customers should be expected, in a marketing sense, to treat it as also being a guide to anything else; no extra official logos, I'm assuming no editorial note to the effect in the book (if anything, we had the exact opposite statement from Sorenson himself!), etc.<br />
:::::::On top of that, like I said, Mowry got ridden to keep continuity in his Movie comics. So basically, to reiterate, you're trying to tell me that the guy tapped to write directly-branded fiction gets paid close attention to by Hasbro, but an admitted throwaway joke in a completely different continuity that contradicts officially-branded Movie fiction gets waved through, no worries?<br />
:::::::And again, like I said for the umpteenth time, we have '''direct evidence''' that no, the Almanac is not canon for all other continuities, and that no, other continuities don't necessarily have to care what fiction in other continuities do.<br />
:::::::And I have proved that my assumptions are true, based on, like I've already said umpteen times, direct evidence of how Hasbro has handled things. I've given you evidence of licensing restrictions, continuity restrictions, how Hasbro edits the canon for each storyline, how some continuities explicitly don't acknowledge others, etc.<br />
:::::::Meanwhile, all you've given me is your assumptions based on... well, nothing at all except your own assumptions. I'd say the burden of proof is on you, bub. You've been feeding me nothing but a lot of illogical statements that make no sense compared to how writing a storyline actually works or even how the treatment of the various bits of fiction by the licensees and Hasbro has been shown to work in reality. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:48, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::Yes. Very much so. And more, why we should care over the simple and logical: "Hasbro aproves it, then its canon for whatever continuity(ies) it says it is." rule we have now.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:29, 6 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
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:::::::::Because it's not logical at all.<br />
:::::::::The logical thing to do is assume that what's canon for a continuity is the official fiction for that continuity and what the people actually writing said fiction have said is canon. Because that way you're getting the fiction how it was supposed to be presented in a literary sense, in terms of what the people actually writing it intended as canon for their story.<br />
:::::::::Meanwhile, there's absolutely zero logical about assuming that someone who has no connection at all to the regular writing or editing of a story should know anything about it or should make an official contribution to it. Nor is there anything logical about assuming to be part of a story things that were never intended to be in it.<br />
:::::::::I mean, for heavens sake, the various writers can't even keep their ''own'' continuities straight half the time, and we have lots of errors in stories that were explicitly meant to go together. Why compound the problem by linking together things that ''weren't'' meant to go together? It makes no sense at all from a literary standpoint, from a practical standpoint, or from the standpoint of a casual reader who wants to know what actually happened in a certain continuity, not what we fans think happened based on fanon speculation. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:58, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::I'd agree. [[Prowl II]] was pretty much the same "two different guys smashed together into one big continuity monster because of a reference book" situation, and nobody's split him back up into Chip Chase-in-a-Prowl-suit and Prowl the Owl. [[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] 11:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Gotta go with Zac and company here. These things have been said, we need to record it. Put any notes about possible problems and confusions, but I don't see how to get around the bare fact that it has been done. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::If this is such a big deal, for Sideways, might I suggest considering something similar to what we did with [[Ramulus]]'s page, because of the ambiguity of his identity as Longhorn? Two seperate pages, but still presented with the facts that we know of them being hinted as the same character. Or heck, even [[Lazorbeak]] has a nice note noting that he may-or-may-not-be the original Laserbeak. It's not like we have just two options in this matter really. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:05, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Quoting Zac: ''When a new source changes a past source I say we give '''NEITHER''' precedence but record both with equal weight on the page. One Alpha Trion page, but we make it very clear on the page that X is what he was like in the G1 toon, and Y is what a later source says he is.'' It's impossible NOT to prioritize. By advocating the merging of singularity pages, you're giving priority to that kind of retcon. That's really what all of this is about - no one is saying we should IGNORE canon information, just that we should think twice about letting every new multiversal declaration make us rearrange how we structure our presentation. See my proposal above - there are other ways of doing this. It's a pure strawman to say that anything other than page-merging is anti-canon chaos. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:47, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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<nowiki>*</nowiki>wearily just gestures that she thinks Jackpot's arguments and suggestions make sense* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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=== Does Hasbro Matter? ===<br />
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''(Moved down from earlier in the down in an attempt to keep things organized.)''<br />
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:::::Exactly. That's why Jeysies idea of how continuity should work strikes me as very very '''wrong'''. The ONLY way we have of determining what is official canon in TF is by what Hasbro officially publishes. PERIOD. If you start allowing people to say "Hasbro didn't really ''mean'' that" or "Hasbro didn't know what they were saying" or "Hasbro didn't mean to approve what they clearly approved" then you open up EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING to any interpretation or negation that any fan wants to pull out of nowhere. That way lies complete dissolution of all meaning and canon. You don't know better that Hasbro what they mean or what's "right". Feel free to HATE retcons and multi-sings but they exist: Hasbro MADE THEM and HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEM and so it is this wiki's purpose to record that, not put our heads in the sand and imagine "they can't do that" shape the fiction into the shape we'd prefer.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 12:47, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Well, you know, I'm only going by the real-life facts of how the reality actually works regards Hasbro's licenses, different editorial and writing boards, different brandings on each fiction, statements from actual creators (including Sorenson himself), etc. But I guess clearly our pet fanwank takes precedent over the facts and reality presented to us by the people actually officially creating the fiction?<br />
::::::I mean, like I said above, we already have one instance where we know 100% for certain that what was written in the Almanac is not canon for a non-Animated continuity. And even Sorenson stated himself that the jokey references were just that: jokey references.<br />
::::::No, I don't know for sure what Hasbro's full policies are. Just that, unlike you folks, I'm thus playing it safe and only assuming what we have proof to assume, based on actual real-world facts.<br />
::::::I don't hate retcons or the multiversal concept. Nor am I basing my case on which retcons I do and don't like: for instance, I hate McCarthy's retcons, but since he's a writer hired specifically to write in IDW's G1 continuity, his retcons are nonetheless considered by the people actually creating the continuity as canon for that continuity.<br />
::::::I am just stating that we have zero proof that said retcons or concepts absolutely have to apply to anything but the specific continuities they were presented in, and instead plenty of proof that in many cases they explicitly ''don't'' apply outside their specific continuities. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Yes Hasbro controls who publishes what. Of course they do. No one is arguing otherwise. That doesn't matter at all and SHOULDN'T matter at all as far as the wiki is concerned. What matters is '''what they alowed to be published.''' If its published, its canon. If something is published that is a mostly an Animated story but touches on G1 continuity because of dimensional travel that DOSN'T mean it isn't G1 canon because it was "An Animated" story, it means that the story was a "G1 and Animated crossover story" and what it said is canon to both. If Hasbro says something is a Multiversal Singularity and that this means there is only ONE if it in ALL continuities, than we have to accept that this means what it says: ALL CONTINUITIES. <br />
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:::::If we start assuming that not everything Hasbro publishes is canon, or that they "Maybe did't mean that, really" then we have no way to diffentiate official from fanon at all. We've never had a rule about one branded fiction "not being able to effect" other branded canon because 1) thats counter to the whole Multiverse idea that Hasbro's very much embraced, and 2) Hasbro themselves clearly DO NOT have such a rule in 99% of cases, or they wouldn't approve so many dimension hopping character or stories. Hasbro does approve stories where continuities cross over and effect one another and that retcon past continuities (like it or not) so they are canon and its our job to record them as we are given them. Not to make value judgements about how much Hasbro "meant them". --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:09, 6 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
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::::::Again, as I've stated several times already, I never said some things weren't canon. But ''which continuity they're canon for'' is the question.<br />
::::::I mean, I've absolutely no argument whatsoever at all about the info in the Almanac being canon for Animated, seeing as how it's branded with the Animated logo. So I'm not saying that the Almanac isn't canon. But that means zero about whether it's canon ''for any other continuity''. And we know in at least one instance it ''explicitly isn't''.<br />
::::::And, *facepalm* Like I said, some continuities have explicitly actually been stated as ''not'' being a part of or beholden to the multiversal concept or cross-continuity retcons. And just because one continuity does dimension-hopping doesn't mean any other continuity is obligated to actually care. Each storyline has a separate set of dedicated writers and editors all doing their own thing. We have no evidence showing they ''have'' to pay attention to each other (though some obviously choose to), and some evidence of cases where they quite explicitly don't. That's the whole reason to for continuities and micro-continuities and splinter continuities in the first place, acknowledging that something that's canon for one continuity may not be canon for another. We just need to finally accept that reality across the board.<br />
::::::Also, when we do this sort of cross-continuity retcon, we're accepting the thought that people who are not part of a continuity's dedicated regular writers and editors and thus probably know nothing about what those people are doing with their storyline still know what's going on in it canonically. Even more moronically, sometimes we even do this over the word of the people ''actually writing the contested storyline''! If people can't realize how utterly stupid that is (I mean, just because I'm officially writing in one continuity doesn't mean I know jack about what the writing team in another continuity is doing)...<br />
::::::And no, saying that Hasbro's word goes doesn't mean anything, because if Hasbro were really truly mandating all of these cross-continuity things, then the people writing those other continuities ''would be forced to use them and thus wouldn't be claiming they don't apply or contradicting them in the actual fiction''. I would think this would be obvious logic... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:34, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::To address your points in order:<br />
<br />
:::::::1) Anything aproved by Hasbro is canon. We both agree there, yes? Why, then, do you think there is debate about what continuity it is canon for? If Hasbro publishes a story that touches on any and all continuites then '''it is canon for those continuities'''. Were they to have, say, RiD and BW crossover than YES it IS DEFINATLY canon for both RiD and BW. Why? Because that's what they published. To imagine anything else is counter intuitive, overly complicated, and putting the determining factor for canon on US rather than Hasbro, which is WRONG. You don't have to like it, but there it is. Any other way is uselessly arbitrary and complex. <br />
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:::::::2)No I do not believe any continuity has been confirmed by Hasbro to be outside the Multiverse. If fact they've said the opposite, that the multiverse contains all TF universes. And that Singularities specifically exist in All Continuities. (Thats what it MEANS.) FP said informally they wouldn't touch the movie stuff with their fiction because the Movie stuff is an exceptional really complicated issue driven by outside powers, that's not saying that its outside the multiversal stuff, as Hasbro has specifically published a SCRAP-TON of stuff connecting the movie continuity family to the greater multiverse.<br />
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:::::::3)Sorry to be blunt but I don't think Creators mater here at all. They're totally beside the point. "Dedicated fiction teams" (in the rare cases they exist) don't matter. They're all "work for hire" folks who come and go. Hasbro is the authority on whats canon. They have to be or there is no canon. <br />
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:::::::4)Your final paragraph above is absolutly wrong and missing the point IMO. The only way we have and ''have ever had'' of establishing what is official TF canon is by what Hasbro approves. It doesn't matter if they "enforce" a storyline on every writer for it to be canon. All that matters is that they approve it to be published. That's what makes canon. Thats the only thing that can make canon. If you start doing what you're doing and saying "Oh they can't really mean that, because x" or "they can't let x writer retcon the work of y writer" then you are making yourself the judge of canon and it stops being official canon. We have to stick to "Everything Hasbro publishes is official canon for the universe (all universes) that the story says it is" or we're just making up fanon. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:19, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:1. Because we the wiki DOES debate what continuity something is canon for. Why do we have continuity families, continuities, micro-continuities, splinter timelines, etc. at all if we don't care about what goes in what continuity? Why did we split up ROTF from 2K7--both the toys AND the fiction--if the branding doesn't matter? Why did we debate whether SG--again, both toys AND fiction--counts as SG or Timelines based on how the fiction is branded if the branding doesn't matter?<br />
:To me, assuming that fiction in one continuity somehow affects fiction in another continuity is what is extremely counter-intuitive, based on both my personal experience as a writer and my experience of what has happened in real-life vs. what the actual creators themselves have said about how various bits of fiction do and don't fit together.<br />
:It is, however, completely intuitive to assume that if a bit of fiction is branded for a continuity, it's canon for THAT continuity. That's the whole damn point of the branding to begin with, to signal to readers that this fiction, this toy, this tech spec, belongs to THIS certain franchise/universe/continuity.<br />
:As for it being overly complicated, I actually consider it more overly complicated to do lots of fanwank academic gymnastics to try and figure out how to things that were never meant to fit together and might well be completely contradictory fit together after all. Like I've said elsewhere, it's not as if stories that actually ''were'' meant to fit together don't manage to have enough errors already anyway, without us helping things along.<br />
:I will concede it might be more complicated for us to catalog, but tough shit, reality doesn't always play nice with what you want.<br />
:2. I've never heard a single statement that says all continuities have to include the multiversal concept. Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. That the Movies are outside of the multiversal idea. That bits of the Almanac explicitly aren't canon for some continuities. Statements from creators about their own continuities... who, like I said, would not be making those statements if Hasbro had actually mandated differently to them.<br />
:3. XD You can't be serious. Yes, the people directly writing each continuity matter because, um, you know, they're the ones ''actually writing the stories''. Dur. Yes, writing teams change, but they change ''within those continuities''. For instance, when McCarthy took over for Furman, he took over under IDW's editorial, writing for IDW's storyline. He didn't take over for Animated, he didn't take over for the Movies, he isn't working for Prime, he doesn't work for FunPub. He's the new guy for a specific company under a specific editor for a specific continuity.<br />
:And yes, what Hasbro says is canon. For some continuity. And again, if Hasbro was actually mandating all these cross-continuity claims, we wouldn't even be having this debate to begin with because ''all of the fiction and statements from the creators would reflect that'' so there would be no argument. I've seen plenty of evidence that Hasbro cares very much about what goes on in certain specific continuities. I've seen no evidence at all of Hasbro mandating cross-continuity things, however, and in fact just the opposite.<br />
:4. Just the opposite, it's utterly making up fanon to assume that things branded as one continuity have any affect at all on a completely different continuity, even when those people claim different or even write official fiction stating differently. It's fanon to assume that we fans or people not assigned to write directly for a continuity know better about what is planned for that other continuity than the people who actually are writing for that continuity. (Not to mention, to be quite blunt about it, just plain fucking stupid.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:23, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::From your second point; if the movies are outside the multiverse idea, why do at least two multiversal singularities appear in it? Or do Unicron and the Fallen not count? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I think [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Another perspective on Multiuniversal Singularities|this covers it pretty well]]. But the short version, they're versions of Unicron and the Fallen who aren't singularities. Pretty simple. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The writing in one continuity does not affect any other continuity/ies.... ''except when it does''. Animated Arcee being a schoolteacher does not make G1 Arcee a schoolteacher. A god warping the fabric of reality such that every entity ever named Arcee is now said to have been a schoolteacher DOES make G1 Arcee a schoolteacher. Sideways being long-established for years as having had the power to warp from one continuity to the next means that he actually can do that, and the things he's said to do in some continuity he hadn't visited earlier can certainly be attributed to him, being there, doing it. If the writers go all-out along those lines and it gets published, then it is canon. I know there's a fair amount of author-intent debating here every now and then, but I don't think "in-continuity author intent supremacy" is a popularly-held viewpoint, let alone one stable enough on which to build this wiki in the future. We would certainly have to un-happen Beast Machines, which we're bloody well not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:36, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::I can't speak for Jeysie's view, but I do think that series-integrity should be given higher priority than we currenty do, and I see absolutely no need to "un-happen ''Beast Machines''." The changes being discussed are a lot subtler than that. As I see it, all we need to do to maintain BW's integrity despite BM's retcons is just to make sure we don't, for example, talk about the Allspark in a section titled "''Beast Wars'' cartoon". Which is pretty much how it is now, so no big deal. Where this really comes into play is the singularity stuff; jamming everything into a single article fosters a sense of retcon-supremacy. If it's our goal to try to present the multiverse as a single, cohesive whole, then yes, I would agree that the retcons should be given primacy. But I see no particular reason to give that conceit so much weight. Each series has its own view of the multiverse (or none at all), and it's a ''choice'' on our part as to how to present it when one series's multiverse-model treads on another series's territory. We don't have the choice of ''ignoring'' it... but we do have options for how it affects our presentation. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I can't speak in detail about something like BM, not having seen it, but again, I think you covered my viewpoint pretty well. I'm not saying we should flat out ignore any canon. But there ''is'' a difference between simply mentioning a given detail somehow, and treating that given detail as major enough in a certain continuity to affect our organization.<br />
::::I feel like cross-continuity things should almost always be the former rather than the latter unless we really have solid, official reason to treat a cross-continuity detail as being major for that other continuity. (As in, corroboration from fiction branded with that continuity or someone who regularly deals with that other continuity, not just a mere mention in whatever publication in a separate continuity.)<br />
::::Especially since, it just doesn't hurt us at all to play it safe this way. We're not ignoring the info. We're not presenting it as being not valid at all. We're just reasonably not taking a firm stance on something, especially a major difference, unless we have really solid reason to know it's the case. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Sure. I just discovered the debate over on [[Talk:Sideways#Talk:Sideways (ROTF)|Talk:Sideways]], and that actually provides a good example: I have no problem with ''Animated'' Sideways being on the UT Sideways page because ''Animated'' took the UT dimension-hopper thing and ran with it. However, I'd prefer that the live-action Sideways NOT be on the same page because the movieverse doesn't acknowledge the connection. Yes, let's absolutely document the retcon, but make it a link instead of a merger. That way, the information is still conveyed, but we let series-integrity define our presentation instead of the mythical idea of a consistent, unified multiverse. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:21, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::You are actually pretty badly misrepresenting the discussion there. We aren't saying that Movie Sideways isn't UT Sideways because the Movie universe says so, we're saying that they aren't the same because the evidence presented in the AAII doesn't prove that he is beyond a shadow of a doubt. All it says is that the was planning to go to Shanghai, but that Shanghai could be in the UT, RiD, Animated or Robot Masters universes just as easily as the Movie universe. We're not saying definitively that they are not the same guy, just that there is not enough evidence to prove he is. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 19:01, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::I'm not trying to represent your arguments at all. I'm defining my own answer on my own terms. For what it's worth, I see the phrase "the same guy" as an... overly-simplistic way of looking at the question. Different series provide different views of who's the "same" as who, and my suggestions are keyed to preserving those differences of perspective. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:21, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::So then why even bother brining the discussion up? You may as well have cited Weekend at Bernie's. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 19:23, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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===Jackpot's Guide to the Multiverse===<br />
In the discussion above, I started piecing together a sensible approach to dealing with cross-continuity issues, but it's kind of scattered and buried up there, so I figured I'd spell out the principles I'm working with:<br />
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'''1) By default, articles should be separated from each other by continuity-family.'''<br />
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I don't expect much disagreement here, since it's how we actually do things 99% of the time. There are of course exceptions when the subject is sufficiently universal, like [[Cybertron (planet)]]. And at the moment, we also make exceptions for [[Multiversal singularity|singularities]] and dimension-hoppers. I only bring the principle up to say that when I advocate separating articles, this is the standard I'm falling back on.<br />
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'''2) Everything with a Hasbro trademark is canon, and we should document it.'''<br />
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Pretty sure we're all together on this one. The thorny issue is HOW to document it.<br />
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'''3) Each series should be presented as it presents itself.'''<br />
<br />
Again, this is pretty much how we already do things. When we talk about Starscream [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|in the context of the G1 'toon]], he's a "ghost," but when it's [[Starscream (G1)#Beast Wars cartoon|in a BW context]], he's a "spark." Where we're starting to see problems is with singularities and dimension-hoppers. For example, the ''Animated Almanac'' strongly suggests that [[Sideways (RID)#Animated|its version of Sideways]] is the same individual as his [[Sideways (ROTF)|movieverse namesake]]. But within the movieverse, there's zero evidence of any connection. There's been [[Talk:Sideways (RID)#ROTF Sideways is not UT Sideways|debate]] over whether the ''Almanac'' claim is "proof" or just an "Easter egg," but let's assume for sake of argument that it's an ironclad declaration. In that case, one series's self-presentation contradicts another's. Our job is to present them both, each with the prominence that it merits, no matter how at-odds they may be. Which leads to the next point...<br />
<br />
'''4) There is no single, consistent multiverse.'''<br />
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I think this is my most controversial notion. Almost every argument I've seen in favor of merging articles rests on the assumption that continuity is a two-way street: If one source makes a statement about another universe, then by gum that other universe needs to be roped in. But the reality is that TF fiction comprises a bunch of independent series written with little or no regard to each other, each with its own view of the multiverse (or lack thereof). For example, it was brought up in [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Alpha Trion|this discussion]] that Pete Sinclair, when pressed about how [[Nexus Prime]] related to the [[Dynasty of Primes]], dismissed the live-action universe as [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=e9b629aca941d8a17156fb5d9a62cbba&showtopic=64273&st=20&p=1388259&#entry1388259 "outside the multiverse." ] This statement is of course not canon, but it illustrates the real-life situation, where Orci and Kurtzman didn't get the memo about what was going on in the fan-club comic while they were writing the movies. It's the reason why trying to conform our presentation to the mirage of a unified multiverse will always end in buttache and fire.<br />
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'''6) Merging articles for a retcon's sake gives priority to that retcon.'''<br />
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No matter how diligent we are about disclaimers throughout a merged article, the fact that readers are presented with all the guys on one page tells them that ''primarily'' they're the same character. I don't think this is merited if the connection isn't supported in all cases. Let's use a new example: [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]]. He's had many incarnations, always as an elderly sage, sometimes with mystical overtones, but with no specific uniqueness other than being super old. In fact, he even got an [[Alpha Trion (SG)|evil incarnation]] like lots of other ordinary characters. But now the [[Transformers: Prime|''Prime'' universe]] has a version that seems to be a singularity. If we merged them all because of this, then that would override the primary nature of the pre-''Prime'' A3s as individuals in their native contexts. This is what I've been referring to in the debate as "series integrity," per point #3. So instead...<br />
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'''7) Links can serve instead of mergers to document a multiversal connection.'''<br />
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This seems obvious to me, but since some people seem to think that multiversal claims necessitate mergers for some reason, I figured I'd say it. In the Alpha Trion example, my answer is to link all of the pre-''Prime'' A3s to the ''Prime'' one, and have the ''Prime'' one link out to all the rest (or just the disambig page). Then we could let the tone of each article to reflect the degree or absence of connection appropriate to its source material.<br />
<br />
So let's bring this all together into a simple rule...<br />
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'''THEREFORE: If a cross-continuity claim goes both ways, then the pages should be merged. If it's one-sided, then they should be separate but linked.'''<br />
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For an example of "going both ways," we can look at Sideways again: When the ''Almanac'' used the character, his dimension-hopping had already been established. So saying that he stopped off in the ''Animated'' universe was barely a retcon at all; it just added a stamp to his passport. I think that calls for a merger with the "(RID)" article. But because the movieverse presents its Sideways as an independent character, he deserves his own page with his own intro, mainpic, toy section, etc., no matter how strongly the ''Animated'' universe may claim him. We should certainly LINK the two, but again, with the prominence it merits within each context. If we decided the ''Almanac'' wording was watertight, then we would make the link on the ''Animated'' page fairly in-your-face, something in the intro, bold, blink-tagged, with a trumpet MIDI. But the movieverse page should have a quieter link, maybe down in "Notes"/"Trivia".<br />
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Oh, and '''COROLLARY: If there's ever any uncertainty about whether a situation counts as "both ways," we should default to linked separation, per #1.'''<br />
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So that's where I'm coming from. I used the Sideways and A3 examples because they made handy illustrations, and I don't mean to represent all the nuances of their own debates. The point was to give practical examples of how my principles can be applied to ALL singularities and dimension-hoppers. The more Hasbro gets into the multiverse business, the more we're going to have to deal with this shit, and I think this is a solid guide that will help prevent future battles if we can agree to it. Of course I'm open to suggestions - I don't mean to say that This Is My Conviction or whatever - but nothing else I've seen so far makes as much sense to me. Agree/disagree? Discuss!<br />
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- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
====The Debate, part the first, wherein Semysane complains about length and Jeysie complains about Semysane====<br />
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:I'm sorry, that was a bit TL;DR. Is this a blog now? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:11, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::<nowiki>*</nowiki>eyeroll* I hate "Too long, too lazy ass to read" butthurt. Look, are you over the age of 10? If so, it's not going to kill you to be expected to use your brain and read more than a few sentences, especially when someone's rightfully trying to explain their reasoning behind what would be a major change in how we do things. Suck it up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I'm sorry I don't have the time to read all day about fucking toys. If you would like to pay for my food, rent, clothes and internet FOR me, then I'd be more than willing to read a novella on retcons. Until then, stop insulting me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Guess what? If you don't have the time to read and pay attention to a conversation, then here's a thought: don't participate in it. Wow, what a crazy thought. There's the door over there.<br />
::::As for the insulting, pot, kettle, black. You insulted the post, I insulted your lazy whining. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:48, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::What's your damn problem? Who died and made you the lord and master here? "There's the door?" Why the hell does this have to turn into ad-hominem assaults? All I said was that the post was long. I honestly don't see why you would flip your shit over that. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:58, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::You came in here and insulted the post by wondering when the wiki turned into a blog, instead of actually contributing something useful, so please stop acting like you have the high ground.<br />
::::::For two, like I said, if you don't have time to participate, then instead of wasting your time and ours making a pointless whiny insulting complaint about OMG someone daring to expect you to read more than a few sentences, why not just... not post? I mean, dur. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:08, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Oh, I'm ''sorry!'' I didn't realize that I should have given time to some blowhard telling us how we should completely throw out how we've done things from day one '''BECAUSE HE SAID SO'''! My sincerest apologies! -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 02:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Hey, here's a thought. Both of you knock it off or there's some timeouts coming. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:29, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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<br />
====The Debate, part the second, wherein Sorenson and Jeysie lay out the basic thrust of the pros and cons of the proposal and others weigh in====<br />
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<br />
::I kind of like it. It helps as a sort of guide on the whole MC-classifying thing. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:22, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, me too, it makes an incredible amount of sense. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I like the logic; it's clear and concise. However, I don't agree with it. If you take this idea to its logical conclusion, it means that we basically, more or less, ignore all retcons. Or, at the very least, it means that we need duplicative pages. For instance, The Nemesis wasn't named in the G1 cartoon. Its name came from Beast Wars. To really follow your thought process, merging the Nemesis, the ship named in Beast Wars, with the unnamed Decepticon cruiser introduced in a different series, would be 'giving priority to that retcon.' I think it's far more interesting, useful and informative to have those concepts as the same article, rather than splitting them. I'll also point out that the Ark was never named in the Sunbow cartoon, so we'd have to split that from the Marvel Comics. There are undoubtedly a ton of other examples like this. <br />
::::(It's possible that you meant for your point four to apply exclusively to cross continuity-family mergers and retcons. You don't say this, but even if you meant it, in my mind that's a false distinction. Cross series is cross series, be it G1 to G1, G1 to RID, Animated to Movie or whatever.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I think it's far more interesting, useful, and informative to be ''accurate''. IMHO we should be making our arguments based on what presents the information in the most accurate and least fan speculation/assuming way, not based on how tidy or convenient it is or isn't. IMHO we should bend to fit the information, not bend the information to fit us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::That's a complete strawman argument. It's not ''inaccurate'' to retroactively apply the name The Ark to the ship from the Sunbow cartoon. It's a choice of two different organizational schemas, both of which have pros and cons. When dealing with organizational issues, tidy and convenient ''are'' valid goals.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::It's potentially inaccurate whenever it forces us to make a completely fanon decision that one bit of information is "more canon" than another bit, instead of treating all info as equally canon. See Jackpot's point #6. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:25, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::It's ''actually'' inaccurate to refuse to user our judgment to merge two effectively identical concepts, such as The Ark (Marvel comics) and Unnamed Autobot ship (Sunbow), just because one was named and one wasn't. It's a completely "fanon" decision to decide that they're two different ideas, just as it's a completely "fanon" decision to decide that they're the same idea. Being unwilling to commit to a position is itself a position, and not a very useful, informative, or interesting one. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:52, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Being unwilling to commit to a position when there is no solid information to go on is the honest and accurate position. It's our job to catalog canon, period, not our fanon theories. (Basically, it's less fanon to assume they're different than it is to assume they're the same without solid canon proof.)<br />
:::::::::It's useful and informative to present canon as-is. People come here to learn what canon says, not to read our fanon theories on things. (As for interesting, I think it's more interesting to read about TF fiction and what the creators intended, personally, rather than read people's fanon theories.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:00, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I'm not sure you know what fanon means, based on your usage of it here. No one here is seriously advocating just making things up and hurling them around willy-nilly. But when you have two positions, both of which have evidence, choosing one over the other is not fanon. Fanon is saying "Dion is Ultra Magnus" and then linking those pages. Interpreting canon is saying "Oh, there is an Decepticon spaceship in Beast Wars named The Nemesis, and an EXTREMELY similar ship in the Sunbow cartoon with the same backstory... let's treat them as the same thing." Interpreting canon != fanon. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::Bluntly, there's also a point where it's "come the fuck on" and not making the link is either pussyfooting or bullheadedness, and both lead to a disorganized, unfriendly mess of a wiki with a million scattered pages for the same concepts. Plus it's rather insulting to one's intelligence after a point. I don't have "solid" proof the sun will rise tomorrow, but you know, if I were to place a bet... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::I agree with a some of it but if it's not a "consistent Multiverse" then what is the point of having one? That would essentially make the Thirteen and so on less then Multiversal even though they have been stated canonically to exist in such a manner. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 04:02, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Yeah, the logic is good in a lot of ways, I don't deny that, but Jim and MrBlud raise very good objections as well. As Blud said, it's not really the "multiverse" if it doesn't contain everything. That's what the multiverse IS. Thats entirely what it means, and downplaying that this much feels like our chooseing to really diminis the whole concept. Even more worying, Like Jim says, it IS just as subjective to group things together as to seperate them. It's just a difference of interpretation. If you set the bar so high for seperating everything though it's a very destructive rule. In our continuity article we talk about how assuming anything is in continuity with anything else even within a singular series IS really just an assumpion. The approach to continuity we have been using is a constructive one (Continuities and future material can build on one another. Alla G1 and BW). To switch to an entirely devisive model opens both issues of revamping lots of pages but also destroying many comon sense connections such as those Jim mentions in an overzelous OCD nead to keep everything from touching. It's not unworkable but as an idea it has very worring potential and at least as much room for abuse and stupidity as our current constructive format.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:29, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::Agreed, the basic premise is valid but there are problems with applying without reservation. Jim, in particular, raises the quite valid point that if we truly follow this, then we really need to split off a couple thousand pages. The thing to remember is at some point you're doing more harm than good by keeping things separate. Have your examples reached that point, I don't know. But I want to leave the possibility open to combine them if evidence keeps piling up in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Links can be used instead of mergers / same-naming for ''highly contested cases'', like the recent Sideways flap. But as Jim noted, arguing that the Sunbow ship ISN'T the Ark just seems like an exercise in deliberate obtuseness that inhibits the clarity and usefulness of this wiki. There is a TON of canon evidence that it's the Ark, from the Ultimate Guide to Beast Wars to the Titanium toy. In an instance where a retcon does not actually OPPOSE pre-existing information in the retconned storyline--because there was none--I cannot think of any valid reason to exclude it. I can see debating an oppositional retcon, like Primus vs. Unicron; however, that particular one has been well established foundationally for so many years that, again, trying to split it out now would only get in the way of conveying any facts at all. As long as we sufficiently annotate all such material instead of trying to seamlessly pass it off as perfect revealed in-universe truth, I see no problem with it. I '''HATE''' the concept of the Vok being the Swarm, it adds nothing to the series except some pretty agonizing internal contradictions that were totally, totally unnecessary. But there it is. So--we mention it, we discuss and/or annotate the potential problems, and that's that. As long as readers can be made fully aware of any controversy that has actual ''impact'' on the storylines, we are in the clear and our approach "works". --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:43, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Jackpot's guide is how I view the multiverse, I also don't think it is a two-way street. I think the Nemesis situation is different. The ship played the same general role in the comic and cartoon, so it is appropriate to be on the same page—just like cartoon Megatron and comic Megatron. Beast Wars doesn't say the ship crossed from the cartoon to the comic or anything. But we could make it more clear. On the ''Nemesis'' page there should be clear notes, preferably at the top of both the cartoon and Marvel comics sections, stating that the ship had no name in those continuities and was named later. There currently isn't such a note. I would also prefer the name ''Nemesis'' wasn't used in the cartoon and Marvel comics fiction sections, but that isn't a big deal. Well done Jackpot. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:53, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I have a minor quibble with #2. [[Bendy-Bus Prime]] is a Transformer, but I believe he is all Paramount and no Hasbro. Is he canon? Maybe he isn't, I don't know. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:53, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
====The Debate, part the third, wherein Sorenson suggests sandboxing, Sipher laments repetitive arguments, and Jeysie bemoans what may occur in the future should the proposal not be accepted====<br />
<br />
OK, it looks like, after a bit of back and forth, most of the users see the inherent problems with the proposal. As I implied, it actually has a certain intellectual appeal, I just think that in ''application'' it would do us more harm than good. I think the current system is clear maybe 99% of the time, and occasionally leads to arguments on corner cases. My instinct is that the proposed change would be clear maybe 80% to 90% of the time. <br />
<br />
My suggestion is to take a very small multiuniversal franchise and then sandbox it up. Robot Masters has only 49 pages, including 34 characters, a few pieces of fiction and some other notions introduced. If you (any of the proponents) are really seriously considering having us rework several thousand pages and having probably a lot more arguments, I think that sandboxing out 49 pages first to see how they'd work isn't unreasonable.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:02, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:"''As I implied, it actually has a certain intellectual appeal, I just think that in ''application'' it would do us more harm than good. I think the current system is clear maybe 99% of the time, and occasionally leads to arguments on corner cases. My instinct is that the proposed change would be clear maybe 80% to 90% of the time.''"<br><br />
::Personally, I think your "99%" estimate is off. It's more like 99.999999999%. So basically, just like '''every other time ever''' someone has proposed a massive organizational change to the wiki in order to try and account for a single instance of something the current system can't handle (something every system possible will have), we're looking at more harm and work for a "payoff" that isn't remotely worth the effort, one that will obfuscate information and make the wiki on an already-complex and expansive subject even less readable. I'm deja-vu'ing here bigtime. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Seems to me like we're actually pretty evenly split on people who think it's a good idea, people who don't, and people who see the logic but also see some issues to iron out, but OK. But I agree that sandboxing is probably a good idea.<br />
:As for Sipher's point, the problem is, as the thing with SG Alpha Trion shows, Hasbro doesn't care about cohesion the way we do, and it might well start becoming more and more of a problem in the future considering the directions Hasbro's been taking.<br />
:The simple fact is that, in real-world terms, there ''isn't'' a consistent universe. There's HOW many storylines going on at the same time at the moment, on varying schedules and with varying teams on how many different parts of the planet? Considering companies like IDW can barely even keep their *own* writers matching up with each other... even if Hasbro really did want to make sure everything 100% matched up with everything else, I'm not sure they actually could pull it off with the current setup.<br />
:Plus, on top of that, Hasbro obviously just throws things together because they like how it looks together, not because it actually works at all with previous canon. And as Hasbro starts doing more of this cross-continuity stuff, the problem's just going to get worse and worse.<br />
:The more we try to stick to our conceit while Hasbro's busy tying things in knots, the more ridiculous our gymnastics to keep it all straight are going to get. I've already wanted to cringe at some of the gymnastics I've seen on Trion alone. (Like the notion that somehow Lee knew when creating a character three years ago from a toy with a vague bio, that Animated would get cancelled and we'd have an entirely new show that needed a new origin story novel. Or something.) And the discussion on Sentinel Major and Sideways shows how much a clusterfuck it can get when we're busy trying to combine things based on whose fan speculation makes more sense than whose, rather than going by solely the actual canon and authors.<br />
:I think we tend to give Hasbro much more credit in planning all this stuff out than they've ever shown, well, ever. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:51, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::"''the problem is, as the thing with SG Alpha Trion shows, Hasbro doesn't care about cohesion the way we do,''"<br><br />
::I'm just going to say that I know for a fact this is patently untrue, and the whole story is not yet told. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:03, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yeah, I don't know what Sipher knows, or anything, but I find it ''very'' hard to believe that the internal Hasbro dude who has basically been responsible for the whole singularity/thirteen thing, being the same guy who wrote the bios that indicated Alpha Trion was one of the thirteen before Exodus confirmed it, wrote a story about Trion being evil ''without'' having some greater plan or rationale in mind. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:07, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Exactly. The reason MS Alpha Trion seems so messed up right now is because we know zilch about the details of the concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we're going on is one slide at BotCon with his name on a list of confirmed Thirteen. ''Clearly'', there's going to be more to it than that...we just haven't been told yet. There's a difference between "Hasbro doesn't care" and "Hasbro's teaser preview doesn't explain the entire concept to our satisfiction." --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 16:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::It wasn't just a slide, it was repeatedly throughout ''Exodus''. --Thy<br />
::::::If cleaning up Alpha Trion involves retcons that supersede previous continuities, then that is just the sort of thing the wiki shouldn't take a stance on. Is the original continuity true as presented, or is the new retcon true? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:45, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Our stance has always been "What Hasbro says goes. If they retcon something than that's their right as its their story, they determine official continuity, and the retcon is now whats true." Changing that would mean changing perhasp hundreds or thousands of articles at this point I'd guess, but that's what this discussion is all about. As long as we tell people that the retcon is a retcon and tell them all the facts of the original story and the new, then we're doing our job. Anyway, back on the point at hand, Exodus had a lot of other priorities. The Thirteen revelations in there were basically treated as background stuff and were far from the focus, teasers really for Hasbro's new plan for the characters announced at Botcon. The point stands that you can't call it proof of Hasbro not caring when they've barely gotten the first sentence of their story out of their mouth yet. Be patient and Lee will almost certainly deal with it as he set it all up. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 16:56, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I admit that I read the novel immediately ''before'' BotCon (like, I bought it on the drive to Florida and read it at breaks and while waiting for car repairs), so there's a chance that I didn't have time to properly retain everything about it before more new info pushed it out of my brain... but Zac is right. The 13 were barely backstory, and the multiverse was not even touched. We're only a month into what may be Hasbro's biggest venture into entertainment ever (on their part, at least), and we've only been given tiny teasers to the main part of it!<br><br />
::::::::(Also... it isn't just Lee working this stuff out. Remember the show crew, and Aaron...) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:34, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::"Changing that would mean changing perhasp hundreds or thousands of articles at this point I'd guess, but that's what this discussion is all about."<br />
:::::::::Possibly. But the problem is, the more Hasbro throws stuff together because it seems cool and then just does after the fact cobbled-together retcons, the more we're going to have to change our pages. We've already had to merge a number of pages, and we already have arguments on the talk pages about how it utterly blatantly goes against what was explicitly shown in the official direct canon fiction, thus creating new errors by merging things never meant to be merged or changed.<br />
:::::::::This new proposal is so that the wiki doesn't become even more entangled and insane in the future, messing up the info in old series with things never meant to be in them and things never meant to be connected ''by the direct official fiction in that continuity''.<br />
:::::::::Plus, as was pointed out up above, Hasbro's stance is that all Optimus Primes are the same, all Megatrons are the same, etc. So we already go against Hasbro's stance for the sake of presenting the fiction as-is. If we really were going by how Hasbro did/sees things, our pages would all be set up exactly like Wikipedia's.<br />
:::::::::Which is my whole worry, really. I ''like'' our current setup. I ''like'' the fact that we separate things out. To me, #3 and #6 are vitally important here. A bit of writing is written as having certain details, certain backstories, etc. in mind. If you later add things in, you change the story.<br />
:::::::::And, I mean, it's bad enough that even the people directly writing in a given continuity often change things around even when it makes no sense, or forget that previous things happened, without us deciding that people in completely separate writing teams writing completely different storylines can somehow keep track of everyone else's work on top of their own.<br />
:::::::::And Hasbro sure doesn't seem to be keeping track. IDW's main continuity is a mess. Hasbro went to all the trouble of trying to keep Mowry's comics canon... and then the Movie writers went and contradicted it anyway. I've seen plenty of arguments how WFC and Exodus contradict each other, yet are supposed to go together. Hasbro came out at BotCon and had to admit they goofed on the Sentinel/Zeta Prime thing. Pete had to basically declare the Movieverse outside of the multiverse to acknowledge that the Movie people don't know/care what the Fanclub was doing. Etc. Etc.<br />
:::::::::This "plan" you guys seem to think exist? Either doesn't exist, or is utterly contradictory with itself, or is being incredibly poorly maintained. I see no reason so far whatsoever to think that Hasbro's left-hand writing team knows what the right-hand is doing.<br />
:::::::::Which I could live with, if we didn't keep trying to merge things never meant to be merged, change things never meant to be changed, etc. due to info given by people who aren't even directly involved with/in what they're changing, on an assumption of coordination between the fiction that has not been shown to exist.<br />
:::::::::To me, what's canon for a storyline is what is being officially marketed to me as taking place in that storyline, and occasionally the word from the people directly writing that storyline. Because nothing else makes sense to me. Just because you write officially for one storyline doesn't mean you know a thing about other storylines being written by other writing teams. And the fact that there are so many existing, undeniable contradictions between the various writing teams and storylines sure suggests to me that it's not being coordinated by Hasbro either. Not on the level some people seem to be thinking/wishing for. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:28, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Addendum: Plus, the more tangled this gets, the harder it's going to be for ''me'' to edit the wiki at least. If I can't even trust the directly-related show/comic/prose story in front of me to be true about its own storyline, thanks to some publication in some other completely unrelated fiction I otherwise would have no interest in reading... well, I sure can't edit the wiki any more. Because now I have no way to ensure I'm not wasting time scribing info that's apparently not even accurate even though it's right blatantly there in front of me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:39, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::You're missing the point, either intentionally or because you have blinders on. IT DOESN'T MATTER if Hasbro has any kind of grand plan. It doesn't matter if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Authorial Intent counts for nothing when dealing with a collaborative property like this. There have probably been literally thousands of creative people who have touched the brand in some official capacity; what was going through their minds when they made their contributions is irrelevant. What made it on to the page, or the screen, or the toy, THAT'S what matters. <br />
::::::::::Does it logically follow from this idea that new material will influence / modify / change / mess-up older stuff? Yes, of course it does. When Bob Budiansky looked at a toy gun and said to himself that Megatron would be a good name for this toy, and that it could lead the bad guys, he didn't have any notion of him as a gladiator. Furman added that later. He didn't conceive of Starscream as having an immortal spark, (or, indeed, any of them as having sparks) but then Megeen McLaughlin and Ian Weir added that aspect to the character. He didn't think that Optimus Prime carried within him a creation matrix, but later he added that idea in himself. Flint Dille didn't make up Unicron as a dark god, but neither did he make him up as built by Primacron. Those ideas were added later, by Furman and Glut. Marty Isenberg didn't originally think of Bulkhead as a space bridge genius; this idea grew out of Michael Ryan's Autoboot Camp, and was solidified by Marsha Griffin in A Bridge Too Close, Part I. Cybertron modified Armada. Robot Masters added to many existing franchises. Universe pulled from all over the Multiverse. So does Timelines. So does my work. It's been happening for a long, long time, and it's one of the aspects of the franchise that I find appealing.<br />
:::::::::::A few specific rebuttals: "The problem is, the more Hasbro throws stuff together because it seems cool and then just does after the fact cobbled-together retcons, the more we're going to have to change our pages." It's foolish to definitely introduce a ton of changes to our pages now to maybe possibly avoid changing pages in the future. <br />
:::::::::::"Creating new errors by merging things never meant to be merged or changed." Meant by who? The original writers? Again, who cares, doesn't matter. This isn't Babylon 5, where there's one driving vision. This is a collaborative experiment involving at a bare minimum hundreds of people. One guy didn't intend something, another guy does, things change, it happens.<br />
:::::::::::""The more tangled this gets, the harder it's going to be for ''me'' to edit the wiki at least." Transformers is a living, evolving tapestry. If you're worried that the story that you're currently reading doesn't reflect the entire, complete, 100% truth, then maybe you should find some other franchise that's a little less dynamic. Asimov's Foundation series is pretty good. (Oh, wait, no, he wrote in new prequels and changed around the backstory, then the rights holders commissioned new books in the universe.) Basically, everyone else seems to manage to contribute without running into this non-issue, this mole hill that you're attempting to mountainify. <br />
::::::::::Besides... why are you wasting your time arguing? There were, what, three or four people that seemed to think this proposal had some merit, maybe seven who thought it caused more harm than good. The idea was put forth that, if you're really interested, put your money (or at least time) where your mouth is. Sandbox out Robot Masters, see if it's better or worse than our current Robot Masters offerings. About 50 pages. I'd be willing to look at your work and see if maybe, despite my strong intuition, you'll come up with something cleaner and better than what we have now. However, don't expect everyone to start reordering things because you don't like the idea that a Beast Wars cartoon can modify a Sunbow one when that's the model we've been operating under for years.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::When Asimov wrote new sequels, he wrote it in his own storyline. When the new people wrote sequels, they again wrote it in the same storyline.<br />
:::::::::::That's different from feeling like I'm only interested in the cartoon, yet I have to counter-intuitively pick up an Animated book just to make sure I didn't miss something true about the cartoon. Or I have to watch the Movies to know something about IDW's storyline. Or I have to sub to the Fanclub to know about the Movies. These are all completely ''separate'' storylines, yet we treat them as somehow meaning anything to each other. Why? I dunno, it's never made any sense to me and I've never liked our tendency to do it, especially when it's been shown time and time again that the people actually writing the fiction do not consider other storylines as meaning anything to their own.<br />
:::::::::::"This isn't Babylon 5, where there's one driving vision."<br />
:::::::::::So why are we acting like there is?<br />
:::::::::::"This is a collaborative experiment involving at a bare minimum hundreds of people."<br />
:::::::::::Except that it's not. It's completely separate teams of people writing completely separate storylines that have never shown any signs of being coordinated with each other, yet we're acting like they are. And now it's starting to happen more often.<br />
:::::::::::As for the rest, I think I'll let Jackpot take over down there, as he's already said much of what I would have said. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:52, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::Right, they're not coordinated, but they ARE connected through the multiverse. And does you ignoring my 'go sandbox it' mean that your not going to go do so? Because if so, I think you've just lost by forfeit. Basically, I'm saying "put up or shut up." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::So wait, let me get this straight. You ''agree'' that in real life the coordination between storylines does not exist, that the writers do not know or care about each other's storylines, that what other people are doing sometimes even contradicts what the writers in a different storyline are actually going to do, yet we're supposed to connect them together anyway based on a fictional conceit that the writers have been shown to not always care about?<br />
:::::::::::::And you don't see the problem with this? Really?<br />
:::::::::::::And I haven't ignored it, just pointed out that Jackpot already addressed it, and since it's his proposal, I see no point in not letting him choose how to handle it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:30, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Correct. I agree that the real life coordination is almost non-existent. I further point out that it's ALWAYS been that way, even within single series. It's that very lack of coordination that enables so many retcons without this being problematic. Transformers evolves. They, ahem, transform. My vision and introduction to the universe may later be modified by a future writer. This is not a problem, it's a good thing. More than Meets the Eye introduces an unnamed Decepticon ship, and later Beast Wars names it. The universe just got richer. I don't care if that doesn't match up with George Arthur Bloom's vision.<br />
::::::::::::::And regarding sandboxing, Jackpot didn't address it at all, but that's ok, it was directed at you. You're spewing out a LOT more verbiage than him. If you're not ready to actually go show us how to do it, then I don't see why anyone should listen to you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:32, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::Yes it is a problem. In that most of the things we treat as retcons weren't meant to be retcons to begin with. They're things we treat as retcons due to a cross-continuity policy we adhere to that Hasbro's writers do not. We introduce errors and inconsistencies that do not exist in the original work, errors and inconsistencies that only exist because we're putting things in the original work never meant to be there.<br />
:::::::::::::::In fact, some of the creators even find it offensive. Derrick flat out hates the multiverse idea. Pete told me he thinks something written 25 years after the fact shouldn't trump the original script for something. So not only are we being stupid and adhering to something that flat out has been shown to not exist/apply, we're in some cases being disrespectful. Which apparently you don't care about considering...<br />
:::::::::::::::"I don't care if that doesn't match up with George Arthur Bloom's vision."<br />
:::::::::::::::Wow, what an utterly jerkass opinion. Well, here's one of my own. You know what? I don't give a shit about your fanon opinion on continuities you weren't hired to write for. You wanna change around Movie continuity? Go get IDW or Paramount to let you write for it. You wanna mess in FunPub continuity? Go get hired by Pete. Etc. They're the ones who've been hired to write those storylines. You? You were hired to write a book about Animated. And I'll accept whatever you write about Animated specifically. But when it comes to other continuities, being an official writer in one continuity doesn't make you any less of a clueless fan on the others than the rest of us. And thus I care about your fanon theories as much as I care about any other fans' (i.e. very little at all). Your constant "I'm Armed With the Ability to Make Canon" attitude, and dismissive attitude towards your fellow pros' work just makes you come off as a petty jackass every time you open your mouth in one of these debates.<br />
:::::::::::::::So yeah, you know, I'm done with you. You obviously have such an inflated sense of your own ego, an utter lack of respect for your fellow writers, and an equally utter lack of grip on reality that there's little point in giving any worth to what you have to say. Typical arrogant asshole TF fan, made worse by you being one of the pro writers who ought to know better.<br />
:::::::::::::::As for the sandboxing: "(Also, the Robot Masters thing, being basically a cameo-fest, falls under the same category. Plus isn't it in the G1 continuity-family anyway, so principle #1 would make it a moot point for everyone but Sideways?)" So you can't read either. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:41, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! WOW. Just... wow.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
::::::::::::::::(ps: Wow.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Now, when I say this, bear in mind that Derrick Wyatt is a friend of mine, someone I keep in touch with well beyond a TF context.<br><br />
''It doesn't fucking matter what he does or does not like about what is canon.''<br><br />
He doesn't like Ratbat having the power to speak or leading the Decepticons. Doesn't matter, both these happen. He ''hates'' Beachcomber. He happens. Derrick is a great guy and an amazing creative force, but ''once again'', he is only a part of the ''Animated'' creative crew, predominantly the ''visual'' part of it, and ''is not currently working on TFs at all.'' He wasn't the story guy. He could influence with character choices and his knowledge of the past series, but he answered to many others when it came to the story (and even the character designs!). ''He is not some be-all-end-all God Of What Is TF so stop invoking his personal opinions that didn't even affect the series he worked on.'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:27, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::losing count:Jeysie sez: ''some of the creators even find it offensive. Derrick flat out hates the multiverse idea. Pete told me he thinks something written 25 years after the fact shouldn't trump the original script for something''. Okay, and what happens when OTHER CREATORS DISAGREE WITH THAT? Pete and Forrest worked on the same storylines in the same continuity and they completely disagree on this. Ben Yee and Simon Furman had worked with Bob and Larry, yet there we have the Sourcebook and all of its contradictions and quirks. Simon Furman totally erased Budiansky's "natural gears and pulleys" business. Author-intentism is not automatic--very often it requires picking and choosing which author's intent to validate. That's one of the reasons I despise it so much.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:36, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Pete is the editor of FunPub's fiction, so his view takes precedence for that fiction, much as Schmidt's view takes precedence over the IDW writers'.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::And, Yee and Furman wrote fiction directly branded as being in Beast Wars (yes?), and Furman wrote fiction directly attached to Budiansky's storyline. So those changes made sense because they were made by someone directly writing in the same storyline. If other creators writing for the same storyline disagree, then that's the nature of a storyline being written by multiple authors ''in the same storyline''.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::It's the idea of creators in a different storyline disagreeing with writers in a separate storyline that's my sticking point. Because, why should we care? Why should we care what someone writing for a Movie storyline thinks about IDW's storyline? Why should we care what a FunPub writer for one storyline says about Animated's storyline? Why do we assume that someone hired to write fiction for one storyline knows or cares anything about an entirely separate writing team's storyline? Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline?<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this that doesn't boil down to either making even more assumptions about Hasbro's editorial than I am, or ignoring the reality of the situation (that in fact the writing teams have been shown to not know or care about each other).<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::So it's getting frustrating basically seeing people who can't accept that the reality doesn't match up with our fictional conceit, or getting made fun of for a POV that actually makes sense to anyone who understands how literature works from a structural standpoint (i.e. what to assume as true and not true while reading a story).<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::And the "Well, Hasbro has final say, not the authors". To which I say, "Duh." Except that the reality of it is, Hasbro is obviously NOT dictating these cross-continuity changes, or there'd be no contradictions to quibble about!<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::If Hasbro actually wanted the Movie writers to care about FunPub fiction, then the Movie fiction would have matched up, and Pete wouldn't have had to declare what was obvious to anyone who wasn't stuck in fantasy-mode: that the Movie writers don't care and weren't told to care about the Fanclub fiction. And if the Fanclub had to care about what an Animated book said, then Pete wouldn't be coming out and saying he doesn't. And if Primus and Unicron had to exist in every storyline, then Furman and the folks at Animated wouldn't be coming out and saying they're not including the ideas in their stories. Etc. Etc.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::So, this whole "Well, Hasbro has dictated all this cross-continuity stuff is mandated, even though everything from the direct fiction to creators talking about what they're going to do with their storylines contadicts it, so apparently Hasbro forgot to tell the writers about their mandate, whoops" mentality makes about as much logical sense as assuming that just because something's official it applies to all storylines: None at all.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Of course, I love how Sorenson agrees that the writing teams don't have anything to do with each other, but insists on us continuing to pretend there's a consistency that doesn't actually exist. Whereas I feel like we should be bending ourselves to put down info as-is based on the apparently reality of the situation, rather than the other way around.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Basically, the problem is that we assume that TF is one giant whole, when the reality, based on how the various creators (and the fiction itself at times) act towards the cross-continuity stuff, is that the franchise is a number of totally separate storylines whose only commonality is that they're all marketed as being under the Transformers umbrella.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::But, you know. Apparently I'm stupid and insult-worthy for trying to actually pay attention to what the reality of how the fiction is branded and what the people actually creating the fiction tell us about their craft, and base my opinion of the matter on that rather than on what I wish the TF fiction would be. So be it, I guess. Sorry to have wasted your time trying to contribute. Apparently anyone who disagrees with the prevailing opinion isn't welcome. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::''"Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline? Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this..."'' The answer is, that when an author invokes the [[Multiverse]], they actually are writing fiction for those other storylines. In other words, if you want to put it this way, the Multiverse really is a backdoor which allows a writer in one continuity to hijack an otherwise unrelated continuity. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:16, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::''"Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline? Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this..."'' Because we are giving greater weight to the content Hasbro chooses to publish rather than to the label they chose to brand it with. One is actual information...the other is, in the minds of the majority, simply a letterhead. Most of us simply don't agree with your assertion that the franchise is a strict, unsurpassable boundary for Hasbro's contributors. Hasbro may make policy decisions and edicts based on their brands, but what they SAY will take second place to what they DO. Hasbro CHOSE to publish fiction under one brand that referenced others -- as owner, proprietor, and liege maximo of all those brands, they have the right to do that.<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::Scientists in the 19th century could not explain how bumblebees could fly. The math didn't add up -- weight distribution, mass indexes, aeronautic variables...all seemed to show that the simple wings of a bumblebee could not support them in the air. But as good as the math was, none of these scientists argued that, therefore, bumblebees DON'T fly, because anyone can see that they do. But that's your position here, Jeysie. No matter how many arguments you make to the contrary (and the majority of them ''have'' been reasonable, Jeysie), what Hasbro SHOULD reasonably do, what can be intelligently extrapolated that they WOULD do, will always take a backseat to what they DID. If Hasbro went on the record and denounced Sorenson, "We didn't think to read the Cybertronix. We did not authorize him to publish material unrelated to the Malgus cluster. All of that stuff is unapproved by Hasbro, which is us.", then we would likely remove all the Primax, Tyran, Viron, etc related information provided from the Almanac. But without a statement from Hasbro denouncing THIS incident and THIS publication as faulty, we simply have to assume they knew what they were doing when they allowed it to be published. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:09, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::I have kept away from this debate for many, many reasons, but I am stupid and I'm going to say something now. ''Transformers'' isn't about respect for the creativity of individual writers - it's about Hasbro trying to get their toys sold. Hasbro owns the brand, Habro decides what happens to it. If writers experience this lack of control about their storylines a threat to their creative product, then they shouldn't have gotten involved with the brand in the first place. Mind, I absolutely hate the multiverse ever since it went from occassional fun interaction between different franchises to a royal mess with some pretty fucked up character derailment. And I absolutely hate the WOH storyline, and with that all the things it does to the G1 cartoon, which perhaps don't immediately affect the cartoon but are likely going to inspire further canon which makes it moot to declare it of no affect on the cartoon (although as long as I can, I'm going to hold on Greenlight changed her name to Dusttrail, because seriously, "Greenlight" can't be something that wasn't come up with in less than 0.6 seconds). But, I concur the "big" story and its limited coherence is Hasbro's choice, and that simply goes over whatever any of the writers want with their input. Because the writers, no matter how cutely enthusiast they may be about what they do, in the end have given Hasbro promotional material while Hasbro has given them a paycheck. Hasbro's employer, writers are employees, Hasbro decides, writers can either take it or leave and do fanprojects if they want to be involved with the brand that badly. It has nothing to do with respect. This is a company trying to be a company, and if they afterwards choose to adjust their promotional material to fit their current market strategies, so be it. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:31, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Considering that Pete went out of his way to state that WoH was a completely separate timeline from the cartoon, I'd say that the official creators understand better than we do about how to play with existing continuities in ways that don't actually affect those continuities.<br />
:::::::::::::::::As for the rest, see my post above. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::::Not sure where this should go, but it really is in response to Jeysie's points about "respect for authors". In some sense it really doesn't matter if an author likes, understands or even knows about the multiverse. If Hasbro decides that certain things in different stories, in different universes, written by different authors at different times are the same; then those authors feelings are irrelevant. Every story is written for Hasbro, the writers are playing in Hasbro's sandbox with Hasbro's toys (pun unintentional). This is a corporate brand, not a creator owned one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::See my post above. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Agree 100% --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 21:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::How often is that true of a retcon though? Most (if not all) of the Transformers ones *add* to the story not detract from it. Even the whole Sideways brouhaha was giving Sideways a larger article. ROTF Sideway's depiction was still true and still happened even if it was "other" Sideways playing the role. In addition, outside of universe jumping or multiversal singularities (both of which are reasonably rare) there's hardly any overlap anyway. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 21:10, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Excellent point here. As Sipher points out, we're talking about, what, a dozen articles out of 11,000? Maybe a tenth of a percent. The proposal will introduce far more problems than that.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::And again 100% agree. Does that make 200%? Can I do that? ;) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 21:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::See my point above and Jackpot's point below about how not changing our policy may well eventually cause MORE problems. And in fact there's quite a few retcons that have caused contradictory information and errors. Including many of the new ones. The cartoon Prime retcons cause contradictions. Trion's retcon causes contradictions. Part of Sentinel Major's and Sideways' retcons eventually got overruled by our consensus because they just didn't make sense (and in one case the author actually writing the contested story in question pointed out it was wrong). Etc. Etc. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::See MY point above where I point out that DEFINTELY introducing more work and NOW to POSSIBLY avoid more work and arguments in the future take your point and refute it completely and utterly. Also, if you're saying that Sideways and Sentinel Major were wrong, then congratulations, you've just scored a point for my side. In other words, the system works.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Er, what? No, I scored a point for our side. The system dictated that we should merge them, and we didn't because people realized that no, that would actually be dumb and go against what the authors actually intended. It was a step ''towards'' what Jackpot is proposing and ''away'' from our current system that assumes one continuity "knows" anything at all about a different one.<br />
::::::::::::::Your point does not actually refute my point remotely at all, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:30, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! If the current system suggested that they should be merged, then THEY WOULD BE MERGED RIGHT NOW. Because, you know, WE'RE OPERATING UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM. Instead, the current system resulted in a solution that you yourself thinks is 'correct,' albeit after a few days of debate. Ergo, the system works. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:32, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::There's an old saying "Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you." or even more simply "Don't borrow trouble." There's no reason to cause huge upheavel and a bot-load of work now to avoid something that only "could ''maybe'' be an issue" sometime in the future.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:22, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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====The Debate, part the fourth, wherein Jackpot attempts to synthesize the feedback from above====<br />
<br />
:Rather than dig into the specific responses above, I'm going to respond more generally here: Thank you for the feedback, and I want to clarify that I'm NOT against all retcons, and I don't think the ideas I presented would suggest so. For example, the Autobot ship from the G1 'toon should clearly go on [[Ark (G1)]]; I would never say otherwise. I personally would avoid using the name "Ark" in the 'toon writeup, but that's as far as I would take it. It's the same concept in the same continuity family; the name is incidental. My point #1 up there ends that question.<br />
:Where I ''will'' admit that my "rule" as presented would cause problems is with harmless cameos, like ''Armada'' Megatron showing up on one page of the ''Universe'' comic. That does no violence to his UT identity or continuity, and making a separate "Megatron (Universe)" page would be pointless. I think the truly massive across-the-board changes that people are worried about are of that nature, and I'm totally willing to leave those be. I'm not sure how to phrase it in a pithy bold-face sentence, but I'm with all y'alls there. (Also, the ''Robot Masters'' thing, being basically a cameo-fest, falls under the same category. Plus isn't it in the G1 continuity-family anyway, so principle #1 would make it a moot point for everyone but Sideways?)<br />
:Now, one disadvantage I do have here is I'm not privy to any Awesome Insider Knowledge like some of you apparently are. As an uppity prole, my view from the trenches is this: Our current policy of rearranging content at the first whiff of "singularity" is maddening and unsustainable. The more Hasbro gets into the cross-continuity game, the more I cringe at how we're going to bend ourselves over backwards trying to keep up with the multiversal-retcon-of-the-moment. This top-down approach does not serve us. What makes a lot more sense is a bottom-up approach, where we let each series define its own view of the multiverse from within the continuity-family-based structure that's been our foundation since the beginning. In other words: links, not mergers.<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:19, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I think with your second paragraph there, you 100% summed up my main worry about continuing with our current tendencies. I worry that our policy that originally might have been intended to keep things simple and coherent is going to end up being very not-simple and not-coherent. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Cross series or cross continuity family is a false distinction, invented by us for administrative purposes. Bob & Larry have as little to do with the Sunbow cartoon as I do, or Pete does, or Furman does, or the Robot Masters guys do. Trying to sweep the problems of your proposal under the rug by saying that you're willing to ignore it when it's harmless would make for WAY more arguments than our current system. If all you're concerned about is singularities, of which there are 15 (And Unicron, Primus, The Fallen and Vector Prime are already completely done), then you probably shouldn't be talking about the issue in such general terms. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yeah, it seems like it's only going to be an issue for around 15 people total at this point. The whole Sideways argument waged for what three days max and ended with ONE de-merged article and only *then* because he's one of the 15 special cases. The sanest and easiest way to handle this is on a case by case basis as we're doing now IMO. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 22:43, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: I agree with Jack's opinion, especially the second paragraph ( -> "bottom-up approach"). --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 08:05, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I'm sorry that my ideas have been interpreted in such a disruptive way. I thought their deepest impact would be in terms of paradigm, not in terms of number of rewrites. I tried to communicate that most of what we've already done would be unaffected, via point #1 and my endorsement of the current ghost/spark treatment. Ultimately, yes, what concerns me most are singularities and their ilk, but I don't know where the boundaries of "their ilk" are (Sideways being a case-in-point), and I didn't want to artificially limit the scope of topic.<br />
::::As for "series" and "continuity family" being false distinctions, I strongly disagree. This is going to take some explaining, so... [deep breath, hitches belt, cracks neck] ...Let's start with the series:<br />
::::When a series in any franchise, TF or not, is created, there are functional and cultural expectations. On the inside, there's a structure consisting of (usually) a consistent editorial/writing staff, bible, production company, etc. On the outside, there's an audience-expectation that each episode you watch or issue you read should coexist in the same world with previous installments. (There are of course exceptions, such as anthology series, but they're usually called out as such; the rule is consistency.)<br />
::::But at the same time, those internal and external expectations by default don't extend ''beyond'' the series boundaries. A writer may be expected not to contradict what's already happened in a series, but he or she generally isn't expected to be knowledgeable about PREVIOUS series. Whenever a series ends and a new team creates a new series, it's understood that a new foundation is being laid. If they choose to follow from previous work, that's a burden they're welcome to take upon themselves, but the bar for consistency is by default much higher internally.<br />
::::That's why I see the series as the fundamental "unit" of continuity, more so than episodes or issues. And I think that's embedded in our wiki structure, too: We're happy to sectionalize our articles to high heaven, but by default we stop at the series. We ''could,'' especially on sparse articles, run the content of multiple series together into a single writeup, but it's always been unspokenly understood that we just ''don't.''<br />
::::In fact, I've always thought that the logically-consistent ideal would be to separate our articles based on series, but I recognize that as a functionally terrible idea. We don't really need a dozen articles saying how G1 Ironhide is an ornery old coot in ever-so-subtly different contexts. Which brings us to the continuity-family, which ''is'' a little more artificial an idea on our part than the series, but there's still a real-world basis. The G1 cartoon/comic split is the best example, where we can see that both series drew simultaneously from the same well of ideas but held zero consistency with each other. In terms of character, there is a shared concept of "G1 Ironhide" (originally expressed in the toy bio) that all G1 series refer to. They might not necessarily hew to it, but the creators always know that it fundamentally ''matters.''<br />
::::Just as with series, there are natural boundaries to the continuity-family as well. Anybody writing ''Energon'' Ironhide knows that there's no need to pay attention to the G1-Ironhide ideal. This boundary is looser than with series, but it's juuuuust tight enough that we've been able to build a wiki around it. The danger I see in going further out (which is what merging singularities entails) is losing the integrity of the series that are the true foundation. Take the "Hall of Fame" bios, some of which are spread so wide in their inclusiveness that they cease to actually ''apply'' in any specific case anymore.<br />
::::To put this in user-experience terms, imagine for a moment that we'd decided the ''Almanac'' reference to live-action Sideways was strong enough to merge the articles. Then picture a user reading about a movieverse writeup in some other article and seeing that there's a "Sideways" character. He clicks on the link, and is taken to... the UT page. The primary message we're sending is that the conglomerate of Sidewayses is the most important thing. It's only worth a note that, oh yeah, the movieverse gives no support to this connection. We've robbed the movieverse character of his own intro-summary, mainpic, unique Notes/Trivia... the independent ''identity'' that his native series gives him. Luckily, of course, this isn't the current case, and I'm very happy about that. But with a slightly stronger ''Almanac'' reference or a small shift in the prevailing mood, it easily could've been.<br />
::::Now, that might not be a problem to you depending on your view of our role as documenters. My view is that we should document things in the past with the same regard as we document things in the present. Of course Hasbro has the "right" to retcon whatever they want to... but that doesn't make it our duty to fall in lockstep. The best way to keep the balance is to maintain focus on the series, since ultimately almost all official fiction comes through the lens of individual series anyway. If Hasbro wants to use ''Prime'' to make grand statements about everything else, we should document the hell out of it... but from within the series (and, article-construction-wise, continuity family) perspective.<br />
::::Bwuh. Sorry for the novella there, but I couldn't think of a more concise way to put all that. And you'd questioned my focus on series/continuity-family more than once, so I thought you deserved a full explanation.<br />
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:44, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Well thought out, as always, but I'm afraid that you misinterpreted my point when I said the series / continuity family was a false distinction. I should perhaps have made it more clear. I'm saying that the idea of two series being able to modify each other WITHIN a continuity family, but not BETWEEN two continuity families, is a false distinction. I'll grant that each series is a fairly logical unit. However, once you concede that, say, Beast Wars can modify the Sunbow cartoon or that the Energon comic can have relevance for the Armada television show, you've opened the door completely for, say, Animated to modify the Sunbow cartoon. You're still talking about completely different creative teams, completely different series bibles, completely different approval processes. The organizational web we have that binds Robot Masters to Kiss Players to Beast Machines to Wings of Honor to the Dreamwave profile books to Transformers vs G.I. Joe to Hearts of Steel is tenuous to the point of non-existent. What in-universe support for the idea that there is, well, by your own argument they wouldn't apply to anything outside of Alternity and some Fun Publication books. <br />
:::::Once you concede that one series can modify another, you concede that one series can modify another. I don't see any real way around that.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::There are indeed degrees of "modification" involved here, but that doesn't mean there's no distinction whatsoever and it's free-for-all time. That way lies Wikipedia. Like I said above, arguably my logical ideal IS to separate all series from one another, but I acknowledge the practical ridiculousness of that. The continuity-family basis is ultimately a kind of compromise, a maximum point of tolerance. Within that, I still advocate avoidance of inter-series modification, which is already our standard. Again, the ghost/spark example. Earlier you brought up how the original conception of Megatron didn't involve being a gladiator, and indeed, we never call him one when we're talking about the G1 'toon or any other series where that doesn't apply. (In fact, there ARE cases where I think our current application of continuity-family unity goes too far; I've argued for separating the Japanese and American incarnations of G1 Fort Max and Scorponok, for instance. But that's neither here nor there.)<br />
::::::I guess what it comes to is that I see the practical value of family-unity in spite of my series-ism, but the practical value diminishes rapidly the further we stretch our inclusion. And we can easily do injustice to the material we're supposed to be documenting impartially when we sacrifice unique presentations, as in the Sideways hypothetical I just described.<br />
::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:41, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::I think we're in agree-to-disagree territory here. The compromise you propose is ultimately unsatisfying, at least to me, as there's no real basis for it. Basically, you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and saying that anything north of the line is fine, anything south is not. To me, that seems like an approach that undercuts the basic intellectual appeal of your proposal. The current system, as you note, does allow us to handle things like the Beast Wars spark / ship ideas under an intellectually coherent framework. Your proposal undercuts that framework and then hand-waves the undercutting away by saying "don't look at the man behind the curtain." By sabotaging your own intellectual rigor, all you're left with is a proposal that will probably introduce more work without even a strong logic under-pining it. It doesn't go far enough to justify itself, and when you take the idea to its logical conclusion it becomes unworkable.<br />
:::::::If it ain't broke, don't fix it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:09, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::We're into abstract enough territory that I feel I should ask: How would ''you'' define the current system, which you've just described as "intellectually coherent"? I think one of my concerns is that I don't really ''see'' a system to it, just a loose collection of tendencies that at the moment happens to be dominated by a desire to bend our presentation to the latest English-language retcons. (In fact, more than that, I also see a trend towards accepting the words of sufficiently Hasbro-riffic creators for binding definitions of controversial topics, like "singularities" and the structure of the multiverse, rather than being rigorous about in-fiction proof.) In putting down my ideas systematically, it's not just that I thought it was a better system, but that it was a system at ''all.'' I know some people hate to give up the feeling of flying by the seat of our pants, but the more overgrown both the wiki and the fiction itself becomes, the more we need to know what our foundation is. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Gee, I was attempting to bow out gracefully with the 'agree to disagree' comment. I'll take a stab at codifying the current policy as I see it if no one else will, but I'd rather defer that to someone like Thy or Sipher, who have been around longer and perhaps have already articulated it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:17, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
::::::::::Ha! Graceful exit: thwarted!<br />
::::::::::It may not be apparent, but my purpose in doing everything I've done is to find common ground, not try to dominate with my ideas. I figured that laying down some principles would make a good platform to hammer things out on, whether or not the final direction of things went "my" way. So I'd feel more comfortable agreeing to disagree if I had a better grasp on what I was disagreeing ''with...''<br />
::::::::::(Oh, and by the way, I'm still trying to figure out how to amend those principles to properly include the cameo-exception. I do completely admit that THAT, at least, is a hole in my reasoning.)<br />
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:53, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Okay, the Multiversal Singularity idea is a bit of a hot and heated topic at the moment, so why don't we try to come at this from a different perspective? After all, one of the main objections to Jackpot and Jeysie's suggestion to change approaches is that only 15 or so pages are really at issue with the MS stuff. In order to get support to change approaches, the changes should be applicable to pages other than MS topics, correct? Making them better, and certainly not making them worse.<br><br />
Here's a recent example that has less far-reaching consequences: in FunPub's ''[[Flames of Yesterday]]'', the Decepticon Stormtrooper [[Drench (Decepticon)|Drench]] appears, and joins the Elite Guard at the end. He's undergoing retrofitting and paint changes, while providing the Autobots with the same liquid weaponry as the Decepticons. There's an ''implication'' that this meant he and the Autobot Color Changer named [[Drench (Autobot)|Drench]] are the same being. <br><br />
How would the two sides in the debate want to treat that? Assume [[Jesse Wittenrich]] has said "Yes, that was my intention", or "No, it wasn't". How would that affect the decision? Would anyone suggest merging the two Drench pages? There would be no direct contradiction in doing so -- they've never both appeared in the same continuity. Or should it just be solved by a note on both pages? "These guys may be the same guy in WoH, but not necessarily in other realities"?<br><br />
Try this out, people -- use it as a thought exercise instead of making similar arguments back and forth. It might help conceptualize things better. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 09:49, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Excellent question, sir! Firstly, I don't think Wittenrich's opinion matters. In a previous thread, I saw Jim use the "What made it on to the page, or the screen, or the toy, THAT'S what matters" argument against my position, which is ironic because I completely agree. I think knowledge of how the creative process generally works can be valuable in figuring out the framework to organize fiction in (such as the reasons I just gave up above for being series-centric), but the closer we get to specific creators' opinions, the less regard I give.<br />
:Secondly, good choice in skirting my point #1 up there. Even though they ARE in the same continuity-family, we've still separated them because their original portrayals (toy bios, basically) seemed to make them different characters.<br />
:Thirdly... well, let's dig into it: At the moment the only definite in this story is that it's about the Decepticon Drench. So it certainly should go on [[Drench (Decepticon)]], as it currently does. As long as there's uncertainty about what he was rebuilt into, we should play it conservatively and keep the pages where they are (with links, of course). Now, let's say there's a followup story where he has unambiguously become the pre-existing Autobot Drench. What then?<br />
:Tough call. There is indeed no continuity-contradiction there, but there is an identity contradiction. Autobot Drench's only real establishment is his toy bio, which gives him a DRASTICALLY different personality than his Decepticon namesake's. The fact that they were released in different markets makes it even less likely that there was any intended connection. You might hate me for bringing this up, but I'm going to defer to the same logic I used in the [[Goldbug (IDW)]] debate: We shouldn't break up the telling of WoH Drench's story, but we should still keep the pages separate and tell the story on only one of them (with links). As for WHICH one, I'd say whichever one's personality matches closer with the WoH portrayal. And if he's written with equal parts both.... fuck it, man, I don't even know. At that point I'd probably say "merge" because there's nothing else left to do except duplication, which tips the practicality scales.<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::The Goldbug debate is a bit different because of the universe where Goldy and Bumby actually coexist side by side. It's an oddity. I would advocate merging the two Drench articles, but only mentioning the Decepticon part in the WOH section (y'know separating things by series like we do with every other page on the wiki. Why is this suddenly a problem?). I really don't see a problem with this at all. It says nothing about the Autobot Drench in any of the other G1 continuity family universes. [[User:Kaje|Kaje]] 20:14, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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===Intercontinuity retcons===<br />
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I haven't detected major problems with them so far.Here's my view of them, (maybe it's worth posting, maybe not).<br />
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'''1) Alpha Trion being one of the original Thirteen'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Maybe he has the same backstory as [[Nexus Prime]]. There ''was'' an Alpha Trion in NP's profile, maybe he split himself up after doing that to Nexus. That way, it wouldn't conflict heavily with the singularity thing. Altough the [[Quill]] thing seems ridiculous.<br />
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'''2)The renaming of the FFoD4 narrators using pre-existing names'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Actually, seems down to either that, or leave them nameless. Giving them those names ties in the cartoon with other G1 media. The name [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] is rather established in TF media as Optimus prime's predecessor, any other name might get bad fan reaction. (don't know how that [[Prima]] thing would work [[multiversal singularity|considering...]])<br />
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'''3) [[The Fallen]] being Megatronus Prime'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Would be a good explanation for [[Megatron (myth)|this Megatron]]. Hope the writers don't forget that.<br />
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'''4) [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]] going to Shanghai'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Not much reason to believe that he's [[Sideways (ROTF)]]. It doesn't say which universe's Shanghai he was trying to get to. Even if it ''was'' Movieverse Shanghai, maybe he was trying to take the place of another Sideways and ''pretend'' to be him.<br />
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Well, hopefully future TF fiction doesn't start making things worse. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:05, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:A3: I support Jackpot's suggestion of leaving all the Alpha Trion articles separate but having prominent annotations and links on all of them. G1'toon A3 just had too long a history and left too many "fingerprints" throughout for us to be expected to be able to rewrite it and make it all make sense with an after-the-fact retcon. This is supposed to be one of those things you don't think too hard about, but the very existence of this wiki is an exercise in thinking too hard about stuff. I don't think it would be possible to merge all the A3 incarnations into a single article and still have something that was remotely readable, let alone interesting. Make the annotations and links prominent. Heck, we could even invent a new category, color, or font for annotations and links referring to the 13 or to cases where something is not "supposed" (Sideways) but is actually "true" (A3) but irreconcilable from a narrative perspective. <br />
<br />
:FFOD narrators: I really don't like this, but any real name is better than shit like "New Narrator". Again, make a note of all the spacegod woowo powers that are attributed to the characters in other media, but otherwise let the in-fiction narrative remain as it is. I also think we've reached a fair compromise by splitting Sentinel (FFOD) from Sentinel (WOH), and do hope we can stick to that. <br />
<br />
:Megatronus the Fallen: Changes nothing. Our current article points out that the Fallen's history is confusing, which it is, but it's also rather shallow. I get the feeling this will be the easiest of all four to integrate, if the time comes.<br />
<br />
:Sideways: Think we resolved this one. And if it worked for him, it can work for others if necessary.<br />
<br />
:The 13 are going to be a horrible pain in the ass, and if worst comes to worst I suggest dealing with them in the manner described for A3 above. That being said, ''THERE ARE ONLY 13 OF THEM''. And Aaron said several of them would be entirely new creations with no prehistory to confusingly interfere with. We'll probably have maybe 6 really awful stupid overcomplicated headaches. These have NOTHING to do with the way we generally do business here, because generally Transformers are not magic woowoo spacegods, so we don't have to worry about changing our usual m.o. for the sake of working around these freaks. Don't miss the forest because a tree got in the way. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:48, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Once again, Thy is right... well, mostly. Once again I hasten to point out we don't even know the whole story with A3 and the Fallen and the pre-existing 13 guys and how Prime is going to deal with all this. It's too early. Let's not renovate the entire house when simply cleaning a cabinet will suffice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:54, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::So,I guess we aren't facing major issues with these yet, although this stuff seems to be worrying. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 13:38, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== TFsource ad buy ==<br />
<br />
TFsource contacted me, having seen our perennial Reprolabels ad up above and wanting in on a piece of the action, wanting to permanently buy one of our other ad spots. The question I have is, would/should we restrict them from ads depicting "third-party" toys and bootlegs? Perhaps this is the ghost of BotCon hovering over me, since their Wall Of Trademark And Copyright Theft Directly Facing the Hasbro Booth is prominent in my mind, and I know a few of the editors here expressed some displeasure with that. Is that a big deal for anyone, does anyone care in this context, or should I be all "ABSOLUTELY!" and then we make a deal and rake in the dough? Can we even judge, since we have, you know, all of this scanned material and whatnot? These are the questions I present. Tell me how much they matter. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:24, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:All else being equal I'd prefer to avoid it, unless we're desperate for cash. We know some Hasbro staff look at this wiki and they've been clear in how much that stuff bugs them. Also, the more our pageviews include imagery of Fake Magnus Armor and Fake Springer and Fake Rod et al., the more we're going to have to deal with new arrivals who feel that's all kosher for inclusion in the main articles. If it's possible to get a TFSource ad that will never display a bootleg, then I'd have no problem with it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 14:36, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Seems like a reasonable restriction for us to make to me. My take on our scans is that one, we generally err on the side of fair use in not uploading entire pages and making sure we credit the hell out of things, and two, they're not a 100% vital part of the wiki anyway--if Hasbro told us to take every scan down tomorrow we could comply and still have a perfectly usable (just a less visually exciting) wiki.<br/><br />
::That's kind of different from openly advertising toys that totally violate Hasbro's copyright, though. Even aside from the legal tangles (which is no small aside, certainly), while I know we are in that murky grey area in some things, we ''have'' always tried to play as fair as we can with Hasbro in how we operate. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:40, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::I agree, no knockoffs in our ads if we can help it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:44, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ditto on no knockoffs in the ads. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 14:59, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::ALL ABOARD THE DITTO ASTROTRAIN --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:07, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::N-O on the K-Os. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:12, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Yeah, if TFSource can give us ad without IP infringing product, I say let em in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:17, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yikes, I'm looking at the side banner right now and it's full of IP infringing products. The one I see has Knight Morpher Commander, Crossfire Munition and Explorer and Warbot Defender. The only ACTUAL Transformers product in there is Masterpiece Ghost Starscream. I think it would be bad form to keep ads like that on the site. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:19, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ads without IP infringing material would be fine with me. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 18:56, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Ugh. When they were allowed to buy the ad space, did they promise no knock-offs? - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 23:12, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Big NO on knockoffs, including third-party. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 01:51, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::I am cool with them buying adspace IF they only advertise official Transformers products. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:14, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I say YES to having the Third party stuff on here. As you can see by the continuity discussion above Hasbro don't really give a damn about Transformers fiction the way we do. The third party stuff proves that those guys have passion that many in Hasbro do not. And "knock-offs" is a bit harsh, no? So in summary, screw Hasbro and yeah Fansproject! And let's be honest if the choice as to who controls Transformers came down to a two-way battle between Hasbro and TFWiki, who would you pick? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 10:44, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Drmick, we're talking '''''IP infringement''''' here and we occasionally have actual Hasbro folks peek in here time to time. I think I speak for the others in that none of us wants them knocking on the wiki's doors with some form of a C&D or something that'll restrict us (save certain circumstances). We've probably toed a couple lines somewhere more than several times, and I for one, do NOT want our relationship with Hasbro to be messed up. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 12:22, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::What LG said. Also, we're not talking about putting Fansproject's knockoffs on the wiki itself... just adspace for sites dedicated to selling such knockoffs. And I'm giving that idea a big fat ''hell no''. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:49, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::No doubt the only reason the ad is still up is because Walky's on the road. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:38, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::What ad are you guys seeing? All I see is a Project Wonderful sidebar ad (current bidder is Unreal Books) and reprolabels permanent banner up top. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:55, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::I'm seeing a TFSource ad ABSOLUTELY FULL of pics of third-party stuff. And MP Ghost Starscream. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:57, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::Yeah, for some reason I'm not seeing any of that. I just see two Project Wonderful ads on the left hand side "Advertisement" sidebar, so TF Source's ad must be triggered by IP address or something. Also, if the ad is already up after only one day (or less) of community consultation, and Walky's not around to deal with administration problems relating to it (especially as there is a fear of how TF Source's wares would look to Hasbro), then that's poor planning on his part, (no offense intended, boss.) --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:02, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::Weird, it's gone for me, now. Where it was I have a Project Wonderful ad displaying Akemi's Anime World. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::Still there for me. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:36, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::Just tried it on another browser that I never use (in case there's some cache thing on the main browser - no change, I don't see the TF Source banner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::Project Wonderful ads are localized, guys. TFSource probably just shelled out the dough for their ad in the States only. I've never seen it up, myself. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::::I'm in ''Poland'', Detour. That's on an entirely different ''continent'' than the US. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 04:37, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::::I'm in Canada, and I have seen it. I just don't see it anymore. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:44, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::Wait, you're Polish? I had no idea. You talk gooder English than me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:39, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::::: The advert's currently only displaying in Europe. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:26, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::: No wonder, all I see are just two Project Wonderful random ads. And I'm in Taiwan. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 05:52, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
TFsource said they were willing to give us a banner that has no third-party stuff on it! Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:01, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Oh yeh, that sounds nice to me. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 08:09, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::And it should be noted that during the time we were displaying the "offending" ad, we had not yet agreed to have an adspace bought out by TFSource. They'd just bought the ad the normal way, and as they'd been a prior bidder, they were pre-approved.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:13, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Excellent - my apologies, Walky. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:00, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
That sidebar ad with the knock-off Swindle, Springer, and HoS Optimus has started showing up for me again, in Canada if that's relevant. It had stopped showing up less than a day after I first saw it, but now it's there again. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 23:46, 11 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Another Canadian here. Same situation as Cattleprod. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:58, 11 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Me too, same ad as before, knockoffs and all. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:12, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yep, knock-off ad here too. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:44, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::On the Project Wonderful site, both the Canadian and EU traffic are seeing the version of the banner with the Munitioner upgrade sets, Knight Morpher Commander and Warbot Defender. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:24, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Now I see THE ad, too. (Taiwan, Asia) --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 22:40, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Welp, Californian and now I'm seeing the Munitioner set, alongside Knight Morpher and Warbot Defender with MP Ghost Starscream. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:26, 14 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm in Ohio and getting Naruto vol. 48 as the ad. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 02:45, 14 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::TFSource's knockoffs ad is back for Canadian and European visitors. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:59, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Seeing all sorts of KOs advertised now. Can we void their contract and keep their money as a fine for breaking their agreement with us? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:02, 15 July 2010 (EDT)PS- since when is NC in Europe/Canada?<br />
<br />
:::Welp, [http://img535.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead01.jpg/ this] [http://img693.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead02.jpg/ I certainly] [http://img14.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead03.jpg/ agree]. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 15:05, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Same here, and I'm American. I'm only sort of mentioning this because they let someone steal my credit card. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 22:50, 17 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::As mentioned, we haven't actually committed to any deal yet with them, and any ads you see are them going through the standard Project Wonderful process. They've bought ads with us before, and thus as long as they have the high bid, they're pre-approved. They're going to have the proposed first-party-products-only ad to submit to Walky sometime next week.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:11, 17 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
====Guys====<br />
There is no "contract" to "void." Their permanent ad buy hasn't STARTED. They've been advertising with those particular ads for months. You've just finally noticed them because I brought them up. We haven't even discussed what the ad space will cost them since I've been busy and they said they won't have a new ad for us for about a week anyway. So, like, chill out. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:31, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:For months? Huh... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:21, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Simon Furman's IDW pitch ==<br />
<br />
So here's a thing. The following text is Simon Furman's original pitch for Transformers comics when IDW took up the license, printed in the back of the "Best of Simon Furman" hardback collection. I skimmed this a few years back when the book was released and it passed under my nose at work, but since then, we've never had any of the info on the wiki, and I've never seen any discussion of it on any forums - presumably because none of us actually BOUGHT the dang thing, since we own all these stories in multiple formats already. I borrowed the book and transcribed the pitch so that anyone interested can read it, and we can maybe actually do something with the info. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Hmm. I've never seen this before. It's pretty interesting that Furman was itching to do Cybertron , which is weird, because by the time IDW was announced as the new comic licensee, Cybertron had started. Would take awhile to get a Cybertron comic up and running, I would think. By the time it came out, it might be already too late. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:58, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::It wouldn't surprise me if that's why it was modified so much. But, um, should we be duplicating this sort of material here? I mean, sure, The Best of Simon Furman wasn't the most popular book, but isn't this just copyright infringement? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, that was on my mind as I was transcribing it. I don't really intend to permanently house this anywhere - I just wanted to get it up so people could get a look, take in the info, maybe do something wiki-related with it, then I'd scrub it. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
TRANSFORMERS… A NEW DIRECTION<br />
<br />
A Proposal For IDW<br />
<br />
--Simon Furman--<br />
<br />
<br />
In the (Armada/Energon) Cybertron timeline…<br />
<br />
…UNICRON IS DESTROYED, utterly wiped out of existence by a seismic shock warhead detonated deep within its superstructure (events which would be visited retroactively in any subsequent ‘Energon’ conclusion issues).<br />
<br />
But as one threat to Cybertron ends, another has only just begun. A rift in time and space – a massive ‘chronal’ black hole formed by the annihilation of Unicron – is threatening to suck Cybertron in, tear it apart in an internal maelstrom of deconstructed space and time. Only by anchoring the planet, via a spacebridge, to Earth’s energon core can Cybertron maintain its tenuous position, but it’s at best a quick fix. To seal the rift, they need the power of PRIMUS, the progenitor of the entire TRANSFORMERS race. But while a fragment of the dormant Primus lifeforce exists within Cybertron, the rest is lost, scattered throughout the universe, buried deep within strange, alien worlds.<br />
<br />
Roused (from eons of chronal stasis in a dimension outside of normal space and time) by the impending cataclysm, the immortal sentinel known as Vector Prime spearheads the search for the Primus lifeforce, guiding Optimus Prime and his Autobots on a quest that will take them to aliens worlds in the farthest corners of the galaxy and beyond. But where Prime and the Autobots go… Megatron and the Decepticons are never far behind.<br />
<br />
Clad in the armor of Unicron, fuelled by a fragment of his Spark, Megatron has become a true agent of chaos. He’s prepared to sacrifice Cybertron, Earth and any other world in order to contain and absorb the lifeforce of Primus himself, his ultimate aim to transform himself… into a living god!<br />
<br />
And the ‘Cybertron’ timeline is not the only one to feel the effects of the destruction of Unicron. In fact… it’s one of the lucky ones.<br />
<br />
<br />
<<In all the disparate timelines, all the myriad dimensions, there is but one Unicron. Though physical presence is limited to a single reality at any given time, it exists simultaneously in countless dimensions, shadows of its vast, ancient consciousness inextricably interwoven into the complex geometry of time and space. Its destruction in the Cybertron timeline creates ripples, which become shockwaves, which gather force, become a tidal wave of destruction. In some realities, the effect of the ‘chaos wave’ is total, instantaneous, entire timelines… wiped out. In others, the initial effect is less pronounced, a dramatic event heralding a slow descent into space/time anarchy.>><br />
<br />
<br />
In the G1 timeline…<br />
<br />
…CYBERTRON IS DESTROYED! The resident Autobots and Decepticons barely have time to evacuate the planet, to eject the core of the planet and it’s precious Vector Sigma cargo (an eventuality made feasible way back when [in The War Within v3]) before the planet is torn apart, smashed into component molecules by the roiling chaos wave. Many Cybertronians don’t make it at all, and are simply wiped out. In a shockingly short time, Cybertron is gone. Forever.<br />
<br />
Shocked, stunned, bereft of their homeworld, the remaining populous finds itself spread far and wide throughout the galaxy, seeking (in the Autobots’ case) safe harbor or (in the Decepticons’ case) new worlds to conquer… and colonise. Megatron’s Decepticons have perfecting ‘mechaforming’ technology, invasive, self-replicating machinery designed to restructure the entire geological substructure of a planet, in effect turn it into a new Cybertron. And since the Decepticons are indifferent to the presence or fate of any indigenous civilizations on the planet(s) of choice, it’s down to the Autobots to stop them… at any cost.<br />
<br />
Earth, always a pivotal world in the G1 timeline, becomes even more of a focal battleground. Its natural resources are a potent brew that – with the right exploitation and manipulation – can be turned into energon, the lifeblood of the Transformer race. In Decepticon hands the whole world would be turned into a vast refinery, bled dry to fuel the creation of the ‘new’ Cybertron.<br />
<br />
And Optimus Prime has an even more pressing concern. Contacted by Vector Prime (who can move within all remaining TF timelines), he is warned that the omniversal geometry is critically out of alignment. The removal of – for want of a better word – ‘evil’ has disturbed an age-old natural balance. Though it goes against every Autobot credo, they must somehow resurrect the dark force known, among other things, as Unicron! The key is the so-called ‘Decepticon Matrix’, a quasi-mythical power source spread throughout the galaxy. Said to be fragments of Unicron itself, released in some apocalyptic confrontation with Primus before the dawn of time, its retrieval and coalescence could restore the balance and dissipate the chaos wave.<br />
<br />
Reluctantly, with grave reservations (and considerable dissent in the Autobot ranks) Prime forges an uneasy alliance with two of Unicron’s heralds, Cylonus and Scourge, both of whom are dedicated to the rebirth of their master (for different reasons). But, unknown to Prime, they have a secondary agenda, a plan to use a fragment of the Decepticon Matrix to destroy Megatron… and recreate him as the unstoppable force known as Galvatron!<br />
<br />
<br />
<<And so, in one timeline, the Autobots seek to make Primus whole once more, while in another, they seek to resurrect the spirit of Unicron, leading ultimately to the new, universe-shaking confrontation between the two ancient forces… one that will (briefly) unite all remaining TRANSFORMERS timelines and continuities in an epic battle for survival.>><br />
<br />
<br />
CYBERTRON #0 (AND ONGOING)/G1 #0 (AND ONGOING)<br />
<br />
Amidst the larger framework of the ‘chaos wave’ saga, the ongoing thrust of Cybertron is a focused series of one or two-part (largely self-contained, featuring different character assortments) adventures set on Cybertron, Earth and the key planets (Speed, Beast and Giant) that support its core quest… the search for the lifeforce of Primus. At every turn, the Autobots are confounded and frustrated by the Decepticons, but in the process forge new alliances and friendships, both on Earth and beyond. It’s a race against time… with the fate of Cybertron (and more) hanging in the balance.<br />
<br />
The G1 title expands the scope and reach of the line, exploring wider character/conflict story arcs (while pulling in much more fan-friendly past and future continuity) and dramatically shaking the whole TRANSFORMERS mythos to its core, streamlining and redefining the sometimes confusing mass of ‘alternate’ timelines. But as with Cybertron, the focus will shift to different groups of Autobots/Decepticons on different worlds, faced with differing agendas and challenges.<br />
<br />
The issue #0s will be mirror-images of each other, both told from the perspective of Vector Prime as he awakens to an omniverse in chaos, threatened on all fronts. His narrative will serve to encapsulate what has gone before while his actions introduce the primary cast and lay the groundwork for what is to come.<br />
<br />
===Noticed something===<br />
<br />
{{quote|both told from the perspective of Vector Prime as he awakens to an '''omniverse''' in chaos}}<br />
<br />
Some use of the word [[omniverse]]. Wow. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:16, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
===Added it in somewheres===<br />
I've added references to that thing at [[IDW Generation 1 continuity]] and [[Cybertron (franchise)]]. Did I do it right? --[[User:Fortress Minimus|Fortress Minimus]] 17:21, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Usernames ==<br />
<br />
Our latest user [[User:Michaelbayblows|Michaelbayblows]] has what I consider to be a somewhat inflammatory username considering the how many arguments ensue regarding the live-action movies. It's probable that you would have difficulty registering on a forum with such a username. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:56, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:I was thinking the same thing. We blocked some guy from registering such a name referencing Detour, why should we allow such statements against Bay? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:09, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Yeah, I also thought his name was inappropriate. I don't think personal threats would be acceptable here, particularly about such a controversial figure in Transformers fandom. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:10, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::On Wookieepedia we routinely block people for having inappropriate names. I see no reason why we shouldn't have a similar policy here. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:19, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::How he creates a new account and the old one is blocked? Some of his edits aren't too bad; I don't see why he shouldn't get a second chance. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:21, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Block the old account, post a nice note explaining that we want him to stay and continue working but that he cannot use a name that is attacking/insulting any person. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:32, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I am in support of this, but he should be informed via his talkpage for one full day prior to the block, for the sake of not being too harsh. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:04, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::I fully agree with Detour. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 18:18, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::Now we just need to find an actual admin. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:12, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::And set the thing right. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 21:47, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Official sources policy ==<br />
<br />
Recently, some of us have been explaining to a user why video from a cellphone camera of the movie set cannot be taken as official sources. I was going to link to the official sources page when I realized that I do not know what it's called and cannot find it. Which brings me to this point: we actually took the time to write out and codify our what we consider to be official sources, right? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:22, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's at [[Help:Official info]]. And next time, somebody should probably just place the <nowiki>{{scoop bastard}}</nowiki> template. (I was going to but couldn't find a good chance.) --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:26, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Disgusting ad ==<br />
Sorry if I'm posting this at the wrong place, but is there anywhere we can complain about the ads on the wiki? Not to overstep my (very modest) bounds here or anything, but that ad with the GIANT PIMPLE on the back of the guy's neck is really off-putting... You've probably all seen it by now right? I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this... Call me squeamish if you will, but it's really bothering me... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:40, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm with this 100%. I'm so glad I haven't eaten a thing all day, because I'd have lost my breakfast and my lunch by now. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 14:49, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I wouldn't mind so much if it would only pop up occassionally (then again, my gross tolerance is relatively high). But to be confronted with the world's largest zit every page I go on this wiki... Rather not. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:55, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I checked the PW sites - must have been outbid so I missed it. What the heck was it for? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:37, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::It was for a website ''about the world's largest pimple!'' It was [http://www.worldslargestzit.net this] I believe. SO not missing that ad. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:19, 16 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Disamb template on calendar pages?==<br />
So while fiddling around with the latest additions to our "day in history" pages, I got to thinking. Separating bullets with a blank line adds to our pages' sizes because that adds a "list start/stop" in the coding, yes?<br><br />
Well... does the <nowiki>{{disamb}}</nowiki> Template do that when we split that up with a blank line between them? The only real difference we ''see'' on the page is a "—" instead of a ":" after the bolded year. I fiddled with it a bit (without saving) and it looks good to me; I'll probably do up a Sandbox. If using this template doesn't add to the page size in the back-end that we don't see in the normal edit window... it sure would make it easier to read in said edit window, plus give the lists that litlte extra space between lines for readability on the normal pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==TF Wiki Firefox Search Engine Add-On==<br />
I'm surprised that one wasn't created a long time ago. It would make things incredibly convenient, and it can't be that hard to make. Anyone else like the idea? Anyone here have experience?<br />
--[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 15:27, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Please elaborate. What function exactly would such an add-on serve? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:32, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::None. You can add the wiki to the search engines list without messing with addons. Just go to a page on the wiki, and click on the down arrow in Firefox's search box. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:38, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Wow, I must be blind. Thanks guys. There should be something on the home page encouraging visitors to do just that. Might help with traffic. --[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 15:50, 21 July 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastatorhttps://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Community_Portal&diff=481390MediaWiki talk:Community Portal2010-07-21T19:27:42Z<p>Devastator: </p>
<hr />
<div>__NEWSECTIONLINK__<br />
<br />
This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:<br />
<br />
{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=<br />
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]<br />
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]<br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]<br />
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div><br />
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]<br />
}}<br/> <br />
<!--BEGIN ARCHIVE NAV INCLUDE--><br />
{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}<br />
<!--END ARCHIVE NAV INCLUDE--><br />
<br />
== Home Video sections are lacking ==<br />
I looked up the DVD and Home Video content on Wookiepedia, Memory Alpha, Lostpedia, and even the 24 Wiki and they all brought up pages with tons of info, all neatly organized and categorized. But for this Wiki, searches turn up little and the only way I could find home video content effectively is through the "Category:Home Video" page, and even then it was - sorry to say - A Mess! Why is a wiki as large as this one so inadequate in this regard? If this wiki doesn't have it right, then shouldn't it be fixed by modeling the home video sections after the wikis that have it done right? Most of the content is already here, it just needs to be better organized. {{unsigned|4.254.83.255}}<br />
:Er, I don't know what you mean, exactly, considering that our home video sections look perfectly fine to me. See: [[Transformers_Animated_(cartoon)#Home video releases]], [[The Transformers (cartoon)#DVD releases]], [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]], [[Robots in Disguise (cartoon)#DVD releases]], etc. I don't know what more you could want; for any series you want to know DVD info about, the info is likely available on that series' page.<br />
:Either that, or you're perhaps not realizing the difference in how the TF series work. Instead of something like Trek where the different series are all in a ''single'' universe and storyline, there's somewhere around 16 DVD-able Transformers things, all of which are in multiple ''different'' universes and storylines.<br />
:As such, IMHO it makes far more sense for us to group our home video by those separate series, rather than all together. I think most TF fans are only going to be interested in what DVDs are available for their specific favorite series/universe, rather than wanting to see every single DVD at once for everything.<br />
:Not that a comprehensive DVD list might not still be a useful project, mind you. Just saying that IMHO we're far from unorganized or a mess if we don't have one. We just have different organizing needs because of the unique way the TF series themselves are organized. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:38, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::Agreed on all counts. I'd need to know what the previous poster was actually looking for to understand what improvements they're wanting.<br />
::It ''could'' be this is another symptom of us not having any sort of "Transformers primer", as we discussed ages ago. Maybe time to revisit that idea?<br />
::(I went onto Wookiepedia looking for some ideas, but got distracted by the absurdly long and reaching list of "References to the original trilogy" on the ''Attack of the Clones'' page. If that list were here, I'd take a weedwhacker to it.) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 09:21, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::I like the idea of a Transformers primer, explaining the odd franchise and reboot and "multiple characters with the same name" nature of the deal. Pages like [[continuity]], [[canon]], and [[continuity family]] cover some of the info that might go on such a thing, but they're still a bit too "techy" for the casual reader, I think. Something that covers similar info but in a more accessible way might be very useful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:13, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::::I'd be all for a ''Transformers 101'' type page. A simple concise "These are Transformers, they come from Cybertron, there are Autobots and Decepticons (generally) fighting a big war (generally) over control of resources. Usually there's an Optimus and a Megatron (or the nearest local equivalent), a kid-friendly character and a conniving evil second-in-command, but beyond that, it's a weird-ass multiverse. Why are all the different incarnations of TF so different, yet so similar? [[To sell toys|Duh.]] [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:I will say that I think we need to be better about making sure individual episode/comic pages include all the relevant home-video/trade-paperback compilations one can find said individual episodes on... and I am a firm believer that each home video/compilation needs its own page. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:49, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
I should have known I was stirring up a hornet's nest when I posted that yesterday. This started with my searching for old VHS releases of transformers on Amazon.com. I then figured I'd check it out on this wiki, but amazingly searching for VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray turned up nothing. (I even considered that it was the browser I was using. It's not.) "Home video" turned up pages for the series and their home video sections, but not a comprehensive listing with links (to the home video sections). There are some great guides to home video for the live-action films, and the home video category lists companies, but I just found it a bit frustrating that it required so much digging to find what I was looking for. Other wiki's do have pages dedicated to just DVD (Though I have exaggerated their organization.), and in the case of Memory Alpha templates that direct one to the releases. Granted, nothing's perfect and those other wiki's maybe only succeed over this one in that I was able to find what I was looking for fast. But content that can't be found might as well not be there. Out of frustration I finally just thought "This is a mess!" and posted the above.<br />
<br />
Go ahead and say everything's fine. The content ''is'' there all well done when you do find it, even if it was difficult to come by (Why, for instance, does the home video category not provide links to the home video sections for each series and movie? Would putting all those article in the home video category be inappropriate? Maybe, but without something like that, the category didn't help much for my search.), and maybe this is more a criticism of the failings of the search engine behind the box on the left of each page. But my difficulty in finding what I was looking for happened, and I suspect it goes on all the time with other casual searches: "Lemme see what DVD releases there are for transformers." [types DVD, hits 'enter'] "Nothing?! Oh well..."<br />
:Ah, I see the problem. DVD, VHS, and Blu-ray are all three-letter terms (or made up of three-letter terms with dashes), and the wiki software always returns no results for search terms with three letters or less.<br />
:The problem is that (most) every other wiki only has one universe to worry about, while we have multiple universes. So it makes perfect sense for someplace like Memory Alpha to have all of the videos together, because the series are all sequels to each other.<br />
:Whereas for us, there's little reason to have, say, the Robots in Disguise videos and the Animated videos together, because they're two series that have nothing to do with each other. Instead, we have home video listings on the series pages, because it's far more likely someone's going to want to know if RID specifically has videos, or Animated specifically has videos, etc.<br />
:As such, putting the entire cartoon series pages into the Home Video category when only a single section contains info related to that category is odd. ''However'', I do think maybe we could fake it using redirects. For instance, "Transformers Animated home video releases" that redirects to "Transformers Animated (cartoon)#Home video releases", etc. Then we'd put the redirect in the category.<br />
:We could also make it so that terms like "VHS", "DVD", and "Blu-ray" all redirect to "Category:Home Video" to get around the three-letter search terms problems. (Er, can you ''have'' redirects point to categories?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::Maybe part of the problem is that [[:Category:Home video]] mostly lists companies that put out TF on DVD. All well and good if you know Kid Rhino and Shout! Factory put out G1, but if you don't, how do you know where to go for G1 DVD info. We have [[Revenge of the Fallen DVD field guide]] and [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)/DVD]]. Perhaps we just need that for each series, and then maybe a central page to tie them together? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:18, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::I was just going to add an addendum that if we go the route of creating categorized redirects to all of our series-specific sections, we could create a couple subcategories to separate the companies from the actual release areas. We also should probably stick the DVD covers subcategories in their own umbrella "Covers" subcategory.<br />
:::I'm not sure we really need a central page, so much as making the individual sections all available and easier to get to in the Home Video category, and making terms like "DVD" redirect to that category.--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
::::I don't see the harm in having something at each of those namespaces, but given my druthers I'd make each of them in the format of a disambiguation page.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:25, 7 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:::::If I'm following you correctly, you're suggesting to make pages for DVD, VHS, etc. and have them be disambiguation pages? That's not a bad idea at all. I think we should definitely have an actual main page for Generation 1 video releases and perhaps the same for Beast Wars. Adding links to the nav templates for video releases (whatever is chosen as the 'central page' for that franchise) would probably be a good idea too. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
I've been planning to make a central "hub" page since I started doing the home video stuff, and to have releases listed on episode pages (like I did at the bottom of [[The Transformers: The Movie promo]]), but I was waiting until I'd finished all the company pages so I could add everything together in one go rather than a load of little edits. I guess I took too long doing that, though, and the punters are getting restless. We've got enough info to make it worth starting now anyway, so I'll bump it up on my to-do list. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:38, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
:Well, I was thinking something like the [[series]] page with links to everything, but I can't make that work without it becoming overly long and complicated. Instead I've gone with a simple disambig thing as suggested above, as well as the redirects and cat sorting that Jeysie mentioned. Thoughts so far? - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 08:10, 13 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Toyline list formatting ==<br />
I was looking through various toyline pages to get an idea of how to format the list of toys for the [[Beast Wars Metals (toyline)]] page that I created and the one I'd like to create for the [[Beast Wars (Japanese franchise)|Japanese Beast Wars]] toyline, and noticed an inconsistency in the way the toylists are done. Specifically, with whether alt-modes should be listed by the name of the toy. Beast Wars, Neo, Beast Machines, Armada and Energon include alt-modes, while G1, G2, Beast Wars II, RID, Cybertron, and ROTF do not. Movie 2007 has it for some but not all. Is having alt-modes in the lists something that we desire? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Caption location==<br />
I find the way captions are currently placed at the rightt ugly, in particular if the caption is very short. It only looks decent when it is a piece of a conversation. So, is it possible to alter the coding so that caption gets placed in the center? I think that will look a lot better. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Uhhh...I'm not sure what you mean. Captions are placed in the LEFT of the boxes. Images are often at the right of the page, but not always. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:54, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Okay, so I have a problem telling left and right apart. ^^* Left then - the captions look ugly placed all too the ''left''. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 10:09, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Isn't left alignment of text associated with images standard in all forms of publication? That's the way I've always seen such things in books and magazines.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:02, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Centering would look terrible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:23, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Disambig3 of ordinary name ==<br />
<br />
I think it is fine to put [[Template:Disambig3|Disambig3]] of ordinary names such as "[[David (disambiguation)|David]]", "[[Jim (disambiguation)|Jim]]", or "[[Bill (disambiguation)|Bill]]" on certain pages, since these names are names instead of generic words like "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Star|Star]]",[[Special:PrefixIndex/Thunder|Thunder]]", "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Sky|Sky]]", or "[[Special:PrefixIndex/Jet|Jet]]".<br />
<br />
See, we won't call [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] or [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast]] just "Thunder" (unless here comes an official nickname some day). But it is natural/normal to call David Kaye "David" (for example). Or, it's normal to call [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] just "[[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]]".<br />
<br />
So, in my opinion, it is okay to leave put disambig3 of ordinary names on those pages. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 23:52, 16 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Is there some kind of consensus for this, or is it going to lead to a huge edit war where different users like FortMAx and Interrobang (to pick a couple random editors) clog up recent changes alternately addign and removing disambigs without marking them as minor for filterng purposes? --[[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 01:55, 17 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Current consensus is that we put disambiguation on for first and/or last name. We haven't had any discussion about removing the disambig3s. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:08, 17 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== IP Range Blocking ==<br />
<br />
As of this writing, within the past several hours, we've had a dozen edits from what appears to be one anonymous editor, sent from several IPs in the 64.112.16 range and one in 64.112.17 range. All have been attempts to add Japanese names to the ''TF Animated'' cast prematurely. I've blocked one of the addresses (infinitely, more for abusing multiple accounts than anything else), so any subsequent ones should also be blocked, but will this block other IPs he's already used? And if not, could someone point me to the process for handling this? Or is this something a super-admin has to handle?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:21, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:The IP addresses he's been editing from are AOL's proxy, which uses a random IP from their range for each access, so he's not changing IP addresses intentionally. Blocking all of the IP addresses he could potentially use would mean blocking AOL in its entirety. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:36, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::And that's bad ''how''? --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:46, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::So do I change his block to temporary instead of permanent? I'm not sure if a brief spate of premature Japanese name inclusion merits an infinite block in and of itself. Or do we hope this teaches him a lesson and that he registers if he wants to keep contributing?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 23:16, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Every time he load or edits a page, he does so from a different IP address, so the ban on just one of the IP addresses won't make a difference - he'll never see that he's been banned. With AOL, it's either a blanket ban on the IP range, or semi-protecting the articles being attacked. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:27, 23 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::The problem with AOL is that they have effin' huge IP ranges, they don't send X-Forwarded-For headers by default, and approximately ten umptillion people use it, which means we'd be blocking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people.<br />
::::Semi-protect the pages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:38, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Ditto on semi-protect. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:32, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yeah, I looked up a Wikipedia talk page on how to deal with AOL vandals, and they came to the same conclusion - better to semi-protect the pages than block 5 million people. If the AOL person comes back and tries it again, we should semi-protect the pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:09, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Works for me. If I'm here the next time he tries something, I'll semi-protect as many ''Animated'' character pages as I can in one go.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:19, 24 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Formatting Pet Peeves ==<br />
<br />
So a thread on the Allspark made me want to bicker about a few annoying pet peeve things I see people doing here on the Wiki.<br />
<br />
'''Double-spacing between sentences.'''<br />
<br />
Folks... these are ''web pages''. Double spaces ''don't show up'' on the display unless you use the HTML code that forces one (and please, for the love of humanity, don't). Now, putting double spaces before inline templates like storylinks does make sense, because it lets you pick them apart from the actual text while editing, but double-spacing sentences just does nothing even from that standpoint. And over the number of pages we have, it can add up space-wise.<br />
<br />
'''Putting line returns between list items.'''<br />
<br />
When you put list items together like this:<br />
<br />
<pre>*List item one<br />
*List item two<br />
*List item three</pre><br />
<br />
You get this in the code:<br />
<br />
<pre><ul><br />
<li>List item one</li><br />
<li>List item two</li><br />
<li>List item three</li><br />
</ul></pre><br />
<br />
See? Nice correct ''single'' list. Now, what happens when you do this instead?<br />
<br />
<pre>*List item one<br />
<br />
*List item two<br />
<br />
*List item three</pre><br />
<br />
Well, you get this:<br />
<br />
<pre><ul><br />
<li>List item one</li><br />
</ul><br />
<ul><br />
<li>List item two</li><br />
</ul><br />
<ul><br />
<li>List item three</li><br />
</ul></pre><br />
<br />
Yes. Now instead of a list that should be a single being in, you know, ''one'' coded list, it's now in ''three'' coded lists. This is bad for a number of reasons.<br />
<br />
If you want spacing between line items, put a blasted line of CSS in your personal CSS thingy that puts some there:<br />
<br />
<pre>li {margin:.5em 0;}</pre><br />
<br />
In fact, even better, someone with admin access put that line in the wiki's main CSS like I've been trying to pester Derik to do for ages now. Boom, instant spacing without doing god-awful things to the HTML code.<br />
<br />
'''The never-ending {{tl|-}} vs. {{tl|--}} debate.'''<br />
<br />
Considering the whole reason the latter was created was to replace the former in those instances where the spacing was too large, having some folks constantly swapping the latter back to the former is annoying. And then there's the people who don't even bother to do the swap and just stack both together, which is just really stupid.<br />
<br />
If what's making it not work is that it's:<br />
<br />
<pre>{{--}}<br />
<br />
Next Header</pre><br />
<br />
When it needs to be:<br />
<br />
<pre>{{--}}<br />
Next Header</pre><br />
<br />
Then, you know, fix the code.<br />
<br />
And if the problem is that you're using an outdated browser, then either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us.<br />
<br />
Anyhoo. There's probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but for now, this is your Code Wench complaining about these issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:22, 28 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Good call on<br />
<pre><br />
* list<br />
<br />
*list</pre><br />
:that was something I was unaware of but will look out for in future. While we're talking formatting, though, is it possible to remove the <pre>{{--}}</pre> (or similar) from the note template? When notes escape images it tends to screw up the page a bit --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 16:43, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::The problem is that if we don't, the note template is coded in such a way that it currently ends up overlapping part of the image frame and looking worse. Also:<br />
::<pre>li + li {margin-top:.5em}</pre><br />
::Might be better for the list item spacing, as then you avoid affecting the spacing above and below the list, plus it will avoid messing up the articles where the list items have been spaced out, and they can be fixed at our leisure. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 30 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::That is indeed a better thought, although I don't recall off-hand if IE7 supports that type of selector or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:19, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I just tested it in IE8 and... no dice. Oh well. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 14:55, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I'm confused, because [http://kimblim.dk/css-tests/selectors/ this page] says it's supported in IE7 and 8, but when I tried it in my copy of IE8, it didn't work. I may have to retest and see if it wasn't some minor syntactical error that was stopping it working. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:05, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I'm wondering if it's possibly a standards mode vs. quirks mode (or compatibility mode or whatever the heck they're calling it nowadays) sort of thing, as I know IE likes to pretend it doesn't support some things if it gets kicked into quirks mode. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:57, 31 March 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Aha, yes, it was a compatibility thing. I slapped a DOCTYPE on the top of my test page, and li+li started working! That seems like it would be the best solution to the problem of cramped lists. I can add it to common.css at some point, if everyone agrees. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:40, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Having tested further, the solution needs more work. We probably do not want to have this spacing in ''all'' of the lists, because otherwise you get this: [http://www.aldenbates.com/spacedcharacters.jpg]. So I think to be viable, we need to limit it to Notes sections somehow. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:16, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Is it possible to reset the margin for lists that are in a table? TABLE LI {whatever the reset would be}. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 07:29, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::Yes, however there are occasions where such lists occur outside boxes too. The [[More_than_Meets_the_Eye,_Part_1#Home_video_releases|Home Video stuff]] on the episode pages, lists of external links, the "these pages link to this image" list on the image pages, etc. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:38, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::I don't see why some spacing on those kinds of lists too is a bad thing.<br />
:::::::::::But you could always try something like H2+UL LI+LI, or just reduce the amount of space a little to .25em or such.<br />
:::::::::::Or adapt what Derik did to limit the TFNA/TFU/YoJoe icons to only show up in the "External Links" sections:<br />
<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;">#bodyContent a[name='External_links'] + h2 + ul > li > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external,<br />
#bodyContent .tt1_external > a[href^="http://www.tfu.info"].external{<br />
padding-right:61px;<br />
background-image:url('http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/75/Tfuinfo_icon.png');</pre><br />
:::::::::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:45, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::I tried doing the latter last night, but my CSS fu was not strong enough. The extra h3s in the way complicate things. Maybe Derik can have a crack on it when he's back on deck? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:20, 1 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::Still haven't had the chance to really look at this yet, but I had a thought: Since we tend to frequently label our Notes sections in the same way, why not just add those labels as extra matching rules? That would cover a good chunk of the H3 issues. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:16, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Could do, but there would be a bunch of them, and things like [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1#Animation_or_technical_glitches|this]] where the lists are interrupted by paragraphs (I'm not sure why those aren't just H4s). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:28, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::I don't really see it as a problem... since most of our existing lists would need the extra spaces edited out anyway after this, we can always standardize other things as well, as soon as we decided on one (semi-colons, H4s, whichever). In fact, working on standardizing our code when we can is a good thing in general anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:43, 4 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::Having given this more thought: probably the safest way to do it would be to create a template similar to {{tl|columnlist}}. The disadvantage being that it would have applied to all of the lists where it was required. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:07, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Considering the whole point was to get people to have the whitespace they wanted while still using the coding correctly, that's not really what I had in mind. Let me see if I can find some time to hack away at it, provided Derik doesn't show up first. Honestly, though, considering we don't have a lot of in-body non-table-contained lists, I'd be more inclined to just live with spacing on all of them. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Hey, if we're moaning about formatting, I got one - is there any way to make the "note" template work with left-aligned pictures that doesn't result in a chunk'o whitespace? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:28, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:The image float is what makes it tricky, at least visually. Do you have an example handy I can look at? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:56, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Sure, now that I'm looking, I can't find a truly annoying example of it, but here's a [[Optimus_Prime_%28G1%29#Hearts_of_Steel|for instance]]. If that picture was right-aligned, the note would snap up to right under the body text, but because the pic's on the left, it creates that whitespace. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:16, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::OK, did some poking around.<br />
:::Basically, there's a <tt>clear:left</tt> in the CSS for the Notes, and I discovered that the reason why is that you can get [http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/wiki-note-wonkyness.jpg this sort of icky visual] otherwise.<br />
:::This could be fixed by removing the <tt>clear:left</tt> and then either putting the Note in a single-cell table or slapping a <tt>display:table</tt> on the CSS for it (which would be cleaner code-wise but may not work in IE or older browsers; I don't know off-hand), but I'm not sure what effect that might have on ''other'' text/image-wrapping situations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:55, 2 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Still don't know why you can't get <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki>. Reasoning that people on those browsers should "either get with the times, or suck up and accept that you're using a terrible browser and stop messing things up for the rest of us" or bulljive like that is idiotic, because unless they visit this specific subsection they won't be aware the stupid thing isn't working due to browser outdatedness. Plus, as a ressource, shouldn't we, I dunno, thrive to be as accessible to as many people as possible, regardless of browser choices? Surely working the code for <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki> so it works on as many browsers as possible can't be that daunting a task? I mean, honestly now, it's just the same break as <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> but without the extra space at the end. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:27, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm not Derik (obviously) but basically... what the {{tl|--}} does is put a "clear:both;" on the header following the template via this:<br />
<pre>.tt1_clearall + a + h1,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h2,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h3,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h4,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h5,<br />
.tt1_clearall + a + h6</pre><br />
:Which involves CSS selectors that older browsers can't handle because they weren't compliant with all of the standards. I think the only other way to handle this would be using javascript to alter the heading in question. Doable, I guess, but it seems like a waste of time to bother for the tiny handful of people who refuse to update to a standards-compliant browser. Whether Derik would feel differently or not, you'd have to ask him.<br />
:There's a lot of newer HTML and CSS standards that help out both viewers and webmasters, that either can't be done with very old browsers or can only be replicated on them by fiddling with complex javascript code. You need to accept that people aren't going to keep from ever using anything new just to accommodate your personal choice to keep using a buggy and outdated browser, especially when you're in an increasingly tiny percentage. Doubly especially when it's something like this where the site is still usable even if it doesn't work.<br />
:(Now, if you were using something like Lynx, which actually ''is'' standards-compliant for everything related to its pure-text methodology--and there are good reasons for choosing to surf sans images--''then'' I think you'd actually have a good case.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:00, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, I'd love to switch over, but new versions of IE have complete clusterfucks instead of layouts, and while I ''can'' mess around with the layout on Firefox to make it match IE6, the inability to add Office, MSN and AIM shortcuts to the icons, as well as just how freaking ''paranoid'' it is when it comes to browsing, downloading, etc., just makes me very uninterested in using it on a regular basis. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 11:41, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Try using Opera. The button layout is drag-and-drop customizable to ridiculous degrees (my own setup basically looks nothing like the default setup), including being able to [http://operawiki.info/CustomButtons add custom buttons] and website buttons. Its tile-able tab setup and ability to save and quick-insert custom notes and retain form data with the "Back" button is really helpful for Wiki-ing too. There's also things like one-click adding of custom searches (yay TFWiki search). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:54, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Categories==<br />
:To distinguish between the group Headmasters and characters appearing in Japan's 1987 franchise, the categories are called "Headmasters" and "Headmasters franchise". Wouldn't it be a better option to have the franchise category be called by its franchise name "The Headmasters"? On top of that, some of its subcategories are called "Headmasters [something]" while others are called "The Headmasters [something]". I suggest to alter them all to either one of the options, preferably the latter one if the main category is changed to include "The".<br />
:The "Universe (2003)" category also has some oddities. First of all, "Universe characters" should probably be further divided to differentiate from the 2008 guys, even if they may not need a category on their own since "Universe (2008)" is practically only characters as is. I'd do it, but right now various (sub)subcategories are called "Universe 2003 [something]" instead of a more logical "Universe (2003) [something]" to be alike to the main category. Is there a reason for that or should it be changed to match? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 09:20, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Distinguishing between the characters and the franchise solely by the presence of the definite article, while TECHNICALLY correct, is just asking for confusion. I do agree with you on the Universe characters and the subcategories of "Universe (2003)", though. -- [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 6 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Analog/Homage vs Distinct Character==<br />
This has come up in relation to whether or not [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is an homage to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]], particularly as to how both of them relate to [[Sentinel Major]]. [[User:ItsWalky]] informed me on [[Talk:Sentinel_Prime_(G1)]] that (emphasis mine): <br />
"I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime. They are analogs. That relationship goes both ways. ''This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters.'''" <br />
<br />
Is that policy and/or the general consensus? I don't see why it should be applied universally as ItsWalky suggests it is, especially with characters like [[Jetfire_(G1)]] and [[Jetfire_(Animated)]] where we have evidence to suggest that two characters are not intended to be homages or different 'versions' of the same character. That said, I'll bow out if the quotation from ItsWalky speaks for the wiki as a whole. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:50, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:As I said, I don't consider Animated Sentinel Prime to share anything with G1 Sentinel Prime but a name. As such, Sentinel ''Major'' is an homage to Animated Sentinel Prime, and cramming him into G1 Sentinel Prime's page does him a disservice.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Well first, an analog is virtually the opposite of an homage. A character is an homage if they are designed to resemble another character WITHOUT actually BEING that character. An analog to a character actually IS the same character, only from another dimension. So Insecticon from Energon could be called an ''homage'' to the original Deluxe Insecticon Barrage because they share a similar paint job. They are, however, different and distinct characters. On the other hand, Energon Insecticon in the Dreamwave Comics is an ''analog'' to Energon Insecticon from the Energon cartoon. <br />
:As for your actual question...I don't really know what your actual question is. Practically speaking, I mean. Jetfire (G1) and Jetfire (Animated) are on two separate pages because they are from two separate continuity families, Primax and Malgus. There is a disamg at the top because of their similar (in this case identical) names. The reuse of the name alone isn't considered a homage, generally, because name reuse is just a fact of life in trademark reservation. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:45, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Xaaron- The issue that started this seems to be whether [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] and [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] have ''any'' relationship to each other beyond the name, be it through homage or being analogues. <br />
::I think there might be a difference of use of the word 'homage' between various parties here; ItsWalky and [[User:JimSorenson]] both used the term 'version', which Jim treated as synonymous with 'homage', and Walky identified it with 'analogue'. I chose to re-use the terms they were using, since those were at the heart of the disagreement.<br />
::In any case, my question is whether ItsWalky's statement that ''"This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters."'' as quoted above is valid. It suggests to me that the policy and/or consensus is that characters from different continuity families who share a name should be assumed to be analogous. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 23:08, 8 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::No, that's not true. The Mini-Con Safeguard from Transformers Cybertron and the combo robot Safeguard from Transformers Animated are not analogs.<br />
:::But whether they're analogs or not, they're still from different continuity families and would be filed under different character pages. That's where your question breaks down for me: what are you expecting to do or not do differently based on the answer on our "policy"? What are the practical ramifications of your query? I feel like you're suggesting the answer to this analog / distinct character question of yours is going to have sweeping changes on how you plan to contribute to the wiki, but I can't see HOW. <br />
:::Basically...''What's your point''? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:24, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::My point was to find out if ItsWalky spoke for the wiki, or just himself. After all the back and forth arguing with him and JimSorenson over related issues, I'd rather go back to tackling unrelated topics for a while, like correcting typos in articles. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:50, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::The main purpose was related to the Sentinel Prime/Major example, though it's possible it might have other related purposes. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:00, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Third Party products such as Fansproject etc==<br />
There's a good amount of folk here who have a lot of these products. While their unofficialness obviously means they cannot have their own articles, would there be ''any'' positive sentiment to somehow giving them a mention? Say a point in the corresponding trivia section? Or failing that, an external link at the bottom of the [[Kitbash]] page to some other archive (if one even exists?)? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 12:08, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:They've already got a mention in the [[kitbashing]] article, and that suffices. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:21, 9 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== 1993 European G1 character disambuigation. ==<br />
<br />
We do not seem to have any guidelines for the default franchise-of-origin disambuig for the characters from the 1993 European G1 line. And if there ''are'' guidelines, they sure aren't being followed.<br />
<br />
The main problem with this group is that all of them were sold in both the G1 and G2 lines in Europe, and many of them were also sold in the American G2 line. Because of this, there are three main groups:<br />
<br />
Group 1: Skyscorchers and Axelerators: The American releases at most differed in name and window color from the European releases. Determining which version was out first is nearly impossible, but they were clearly designed for the European market. We currently use (G2) as the default for all of them.<br />
<br />
Group 2: Color changers, Aguaspeeders, and Stormtroopers: The US only got the Aquaspeeder molds, but the US bios are, aside from the names, identical to Aquaspeeder and Stormtrooper bios. <br />
*Autobot Color Changer Drench has Aquaspeeder Jetstorm's bio and stats.<br />
*Autobot Color Changer Gobots has Aquaspeeder Deluge's bio and stats.<br />
*Decepticon Color Changer Deluge has Stormtrooper Hydradread's bio and stats.<br />
*Decepticon Color Changer Jetstorm has Stormtrooper Drench's bio and stats.<br />
<br />
The Color Changers have the same unknowns as Group 1. Currently, the G2 disambuig is used.<br />
<br />
Group 3: Lightformers and Trakkons. None were released in the US. Fearswoop uses the G1 disambuig.<br />
<br />
Group 4: Obliterators. Named "Pyro" and "Clench" in G1, and "Spark" and "Colossus" in G2. [[Clench (G2)]] is just plain wrong.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 16:26, 17 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's a tricky situation, but here are some similar cases that might help us decide:<br />
:1) [[Go-Bot (G2)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Laser Optimus Prime]]<br />
:We call these "Generation 2" despite [http://webspace.webring.com/people/ao/optimus7/G2Frenzy.jpg not having the term] [http://cdn3.ioffer.com/img/item/105/434/692/O5GD.jpg on their packaging.] The timeframe and the faction symbols are enough.<br />
:2) [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2003)|''Universe'' "Spy Changers"]]<br />
:The first release of these toys was in packaging that just said "Transformers" with no subline, much like the Euro pre-G2 examples. But they were released again later in ''Universe'' packaging, which we use for our categorization.<br />
:If we apply those principles to your examples, then in every case I think we end up with G2. "Clench (G2)" is... odd, but not much odder than [[Double Clutch (G2)]].<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:31, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:: True, but the Gobots and Laser Prime still use the G2 version of the Transformers, but the 1993 Euro line still uses the 1992 logo. Hell, aside from the faction symbols, the 1993 toys use the 1992 EVERYTHING. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:48, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Shrug. It's not a perfect analog, but ultimately I don't think there is one. I personally don't see any way of getting an ironclad This Is It answer out of the question, but I do think the examples I gave present a pretty good guide if we want to use it. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:43, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::So should all of these transitional figures be moved to G2 disambigs if needed? Specifically, Should [[Fearswoop (G1)]] move to Fearswoop (G2)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:32, 25 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::If you're asking me, then yes. But the authority lies in the consensus of the mob (which seems to be pretty disinterested in the topic. Try moving the page! I bet you'd get some answers then.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:20, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Wow. I'd completely forgotten that G2 actually dropped the "Generation 2" from the packaging towards the end. Thanks. that's actually kind of good to know... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:01, 25 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== A Visual Representation of Transformer Anatomy ==<br />
<br />
For a very long time I've been fascinated with transformer hands and fingers, and was always noting the different ways they were portrayed in art and the toys. Sometimes they look like a painted gloved human hand, other times fingers (3, 4, 5, or more?) are like a bunch of linked short cylinders, and often they are made of various polygons with enormous variation. And then there are the 'hands' that are actually claws or pinchers, or (borg-like who needs a hand-on-this-arm?) weapons like laser cannons (A certain high-ranking one-eyed Decepticon comes to mind). Looking for any articles about hands brought me to the anatomy category page, and while skimming it I realized the obvious: I was looking at a list of pages many of which could easily be represented visually.<br />
<br />
Maybe it's been suggested before, and as near as I can tell it doesn't exist (yet), but I wonder why not have a page with a visual representation of transformer anatomy and links where possible. Some 'anatomy', like the software kind probably can't be represented pictorially, but certainly many (most?) could. It would take a lot of work from some folks skilled in illustration, but I think it'd be really cool to have a picture of a transformer (a generic male or one selected to be representative) with annotations of various anatomy, and a close-up of a head & face for head/face specific ones. There could also be a female version (for, say, heel struts, though too many specifics could easily be sexist) and maybe an animal/non-humanoid version. Cut-aways could reveal internal anatomy not easily represented with an exterior-only view and some non-anatomy (like kibble) could also be represented. I've even mused that such an illustration could be a transformer version of da Vinci's [[Wikipedia:Vitruvian_Man|Vitruvian Man] as was done before [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:AHM15casey.jpg], though some readers might misunderstand and think it was an eight-limbed transformer.<br />
<br />
So, whadyathink? Is this an old, horrible idea that was harshly rejected years ago, a kinda-sorta OK one that is priority #4,896,929.6, or worst of all does exactly this very thing exist and I somehow missed it? {{unsigned|4.254.84.116}}<br />
:Finding said material varies between source to source. "[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]", I believe, had a few X-ray shots of the TFs (Optimus comes to mind easily), being a DK book. The most recent issue of TV Magazine has a few anatomy pictures of Animated Optimus, Bumblebee, and Starscream, but I'm not sure if earlier TV Magazine issues did so as well. I think they're rather scarce on both sides of the Pacific, though I could be wrong... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:05, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Anon poster seems to be suggesting that we make our own anatomy pictures. That's not really within the remit of this site, since we only use canonical information and therefore images. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:17, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Heh, I need sleep... But, that answers your question, anon. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 03:51, 23 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Another canon image I just noticed is on Takara's [[World of Transformers]] site. There's a cutaway of [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:37, 24 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Planet Cybertron==<br />
:First, I'd like to point at two above unresolved matters about category names and G1.5 disambs.<br />
:Second, I'm currently motivated to update the information on the wiki regarding Cybertron locations. But I have no clue how to do it. Since we don't split them, can I just lump information from different continuities and/or continuity families together in the intro part and let the fiction section do the sourcing or should I keep the introduction to what usually amounts to "[...] is a city on Cybertron" and the contributions of various continuities unambiguously separated. Also, this whole city-state vs city thing as we've currently got it written down (mostly courtsey of the city template) is confusing the heck out of me. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:14, 27 April 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Google-rank milestone==<br />
For the first time that I've seen, a Google-search for "Transformers wiki" puts us at the top of the list, followed by Wikia and then Wikipedia. Well done, people! (Looking up character names tends to give the reverse order, but still.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:19, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I remember some months back, we got the #1 result when I checked, though it wasn't consistent in all areas (I made a thread at the Allspark and some people were getting us first, others weren't). Eventually, we sank back down to #2 again somehow. This is the first I've heard of anyone seeing us back at #1. Hopefully we'll stay there, this time! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:22, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I get us second (tfwiki.net), fourth (tfwiki.virtutechgames.com), fifth (174-143-26-81.slicehost.net), twentyfirst (174.143.26.81) and thirty third (en.tfwiki.net) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:32, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::...why on earth do we have so many aliases that are publically crawlable? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:46, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I PM'd Scout about it on AllSpark a while ago. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I get first... and Wikia isn't even on the first "screen" of results. ahahahah. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:48, 6 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Oh, and because I forgot to mention it earlier, I'm getting us at #1, too (wikia at second, Wikipedia at 3rd). With any luck, we'll keep the rank this time and never have to worry about confusion with that swirling vortex of ineptitude ever again. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 00:27, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Key question... are you logged into your google account when you check? -Derik (not logged in)<br />
:::::I'm not logged into mine, but I still get us #1, Wikia #2, Wikipedia #3. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:49, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yay! (You'd be surprised how often people forget Google is customizing their search results.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:50, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Seems the result swings back and forth, sometimes we got first while sometimes second. (I don't have a Google account.) --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 02:01, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::I'm logged into Google, and I get wikia first, then us, then wikipedia. Could the difference be regional? I'm Canadian, if that helps. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:12, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Oddly I get us first if I log OUT of my gmail account, but second if I am logged in. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:06, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::The results are pretty volatile at the moment. We'd been showing at #1 for me for a few days before Jackpot mentioned it, but since then, I've only seen us coming up in second place. I really do think it would help us if we got the alias problem mentioned above sorted out so that Google was only indexing us once. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:39, 7 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::Also people are now starting to link to us at the [http://www.metafilter.com/91256/Mad-Man-Mad-Men-Namor-sleeps-with-the-fishes wrong URL], which can only be bad for us. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:58, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::Yeah, we need to either throw a [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=156449 "no index" robots.txt] file on those other domains (then do [http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=164734 this Webmaster Tools bit], if anyone's got those for our site), redirect them, or take them offline (depending on what would work best).<br />
:::::::::::Maybe someone should PM McFly on the Allspark, since that was mentioned as getting a response? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:52, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::The best way, IMHO, is to use a 301 response to direct them to the proper URL . I already PM'd McFly about this, and he said that Scout handles redirects. I didn't get any response when I PM'd her though. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::It's final exam time now. That might have something to do with it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 19:01, 8 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::I don't know whether this is just me or not, but tfwiki.virtutechgames.com is throwing a "Page Not Found" at me right now. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::It's not working for me either, looks like the alias has been deleted. Awesome! Now we just need to get the IP address, 174-143-26-81.slicehost.net and *.tfwiki.net to redirect and we're set! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 12 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Teletraan-1 just got linked on Penny Arcade's frontpage. Expect them to go out the top of Google and then have their server burst into flames. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 05:03, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Yep, they're on top for me, then their page on the fallen and then us[[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 06:21, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Pyro's Packaging Art Found (Hopefully) ==<br />
<br />
OK, I got a big TIF scan sent over from Graham at The Hub, which I present thusly: http://miscfile.alienharmony.com/transformers/pyro.tif because it needs some cleanup and I figured I'd let someone who knows better what they're doing do said cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 06:29, 14 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Hoorraaay! Cleaned up and put up. Thanks! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:24, 14 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== What the hell is emopanda? :D ==<br />
<br />
Hey, people have been asking me what the emopanda URL is that they see when they load up the wiki (I've seen it too). I recall it has something to do with Derik, but why is it loading when we load our wiki? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:42, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's Derik's site. He has a stylesheet file on there which has experimental stuff in it, which (theoretically) later gets moved to the global stylesheet here once it's all tested. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:55, 19 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Userpage caps==<br />
Can we get a hardline policy on User Page sizes? Preferably, the smaller the better? I'm getting juuuuuuuuust a wee bit sick of the Recent Changes page being cluttered by people turning this wiki into a fucking Myspace account. That this recent one is ''not in English'' doesn't help. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:My guess is we could, but page size has little to do with the number of edits that can be done to it. So, is it worth bothering about a user page limit? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 12:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Perhaps a limit to the number of times a user page can be edited in a day. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 12:43, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Ditto. Also, I say we ban the hell out of user pages in other languages. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:46, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::How about some simple rules?<br />
:::* '''ONE''' image for your page. That's all you need.<br />
:::* No collection listing. Nobody cares.<br />
:::* Keep it to one paragraph of standard info. This is not a dating site, we don't care about your likes and dislikes.<br />
:::* Listing ''work directly related to updating this wiki'' on top of the above-mentioned paragraph is fine. Projects on your plate, past completed ones, etc, all fine.<br />
:::* '''ENGLISH'''.<br />
:::* All User Pages are subject to mods going "NO" and taking a chainsaw on fire to it.<br />
:::I think this is not unreasonable. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:58, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::One more.<br />
::::A user page can only be edited X (we'll decide the exact number later) times a day. Any more and you are subject to being temporarily banhammered. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:03, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::So, would point 3 also forbid any stuff like personal canon or thoughts on canon? I kinda like those sections on user pages. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:06, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Basically, yes. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:08, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::I'm... with Geewunling, actually. Notes like personal canon and fave things are useful for knowing what a user's biases are and what areas of the wiki they're likely to work on, which I find interesting and useful.<br />
:::::::IMHO for the most part the real problem is people who make frequent edits to their userpage without making many wider wiki edits, not necessarily the content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::That can be pretty well covered in the initial paragraph. If you like BW best and think you'll do mostly that, fine, say so. We don't need your fanfic ideas. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:51, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::My user page should be the guideline for all of you. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 17:29, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I guess, to be straightforward with my opinion, if the person's not posting anything offensive, uploading multiple pictures, or cluttering up Recent Edits, I don't see how it matters all that much what a person has on their userpage.<br />
::::::::::If anything, there's some people I remember wishing had ''more'' information about themselves on their userpages, especially the admins. Makes it easier to get a mental map of which regular is which. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:32, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::That's my opinion, too. I don't think it matters what is on a user page, even *gasp* a foreign language. If the edits could be restricted to one a day though, that would be cool. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:36, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I fully support all those points. Our space should not be dedicated to MySpace accounts for Transformers nerds. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:48, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xfa27/Demolisher It could be worse...] --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:19, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::All the better that we left. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
Hmmm ... what about something like all user page edits being automatically tagged as minor edits?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:39, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I don't hide minor edits, because even "minor" edits can be big fuckups. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:07, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
My userpage is the one we should all aim to emulate. X-P - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Is there a function that would hide all user page edits? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:26, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Select "User" from the Namespace dropdown and then tick the "Invert selection" box. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:37, 24 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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===No collection listing ===<br />
[[Greg Sepelak|M Sipher]] suggested that above. Can I (or any other regular, non-admin user) tell people to remove their collection lists? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 16:04, 25 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I don't think so, but I sure wish we could. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:44, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Good idea from the other place, no really! ==<br />
<br />
Looking over the other Transformers wiki, I noticed that their recent changes takes multiple successive edits of the same page by the same user and shows them as a single listing (with a clickable drop down showing more details). Is there any way we can get this function here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:10, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:It doesn't work like that. It actually takes multiple edits of the same page within a specific timeframe and shows them as a single listing. Whether it's the same user or not doesn't factor in. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:19, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:If you mean the enhanced recent changes page, we already have that here. You can turn it on in your preferences. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:54, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I noticed the point Blackout made after examining it more, it still seemed like a useful function - particularly with some of the problems we've had with "clogging recent changes". Good to know we have it here. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:43, 26 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's a good function (on Wikia, it only appear for anon and bot users) since it is much more convenience. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 00:05, 27 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Wikia's New Initiative ==<br />
<br />
Apparently, they're now offering to absolutely remove all ads from small wikis, for 19.95 dollars a month.<br />
<br />
Why am I not surprised? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:10, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Hahahahaha. That's cheaper than what we pay for hosting, but still sooooo not worth it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:14, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::It's even more stupid once you realize that some wikis are incredibly small, edited by a small group of people, and the only anons are regular editors forgetting to log in. (My wiki in a nutshell.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:20, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Those are about the only wikis that would actually be eligible for this, since they have to get less than 20,000 page views a month. For comparison, we get about 8 times that per ''day''. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:21, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::And anyone running that small a wiki who's willing to throw money at it would be much better off getting their own webspace for $10/month and installing MediaWiki software on it (not to mention getting their own domain and POP e-mail and being able to upload and do whatever they want with the rest of their webspace). --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:40, 28 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::They're only giving it to the first 100 wikis. I'm pretty much ready to take bets on how long until Wikia realizes only twelve people in the universe have gone for it and now they must make it 19.95 dollars a ''week ''in order to make any sort of profit. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:34, 29 May 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Image leeching ==<br />
Is there much we can do about people leeching images off the wiki? That is, people on forums directly linking the image off of our server and not bothering to rehost it. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:38, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I believe there was a discussion about this at some point. The general consensus was to somehow get all hotlinked images to change to another image or something. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:47, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::There's plenty that can be done. The problem has been getting the folks with server access to actually do it. :> --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:55, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, I've brought this up a few times to no avail :( --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:05, 15 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::But seriously, people on forums are not going to stop directly linking images (thus costing you money and making the wiki perform more sluggishly than necessary) until something is done about this. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:50, 17 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Have you emailed [[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] about it? Not sure how often she checks the Community Portal. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:34, 17 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Good idea, I just did so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 01:27, 18 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::She never got back to me. Now what? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:47, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::That's about as far as I got with the subdomain issue too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::So, since the site's owners don't seem to think this to be a major issue in their lack of interest in this problem, shall I stop asking TFW2005 staff to remove hotlinked images? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:53, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I guess it depends on how often they're doing it and why. It's kind of nice to be able to inline graphics into threads for the purposes of discussion. If that's what's happening, then, no, I don't really care that much. In fact, that's pretty cool. Now, if someone's inlining, say, several megs at a time or using one of our images as a .sig or user avatar, then that I don't like. But I feel those are incidents that are isolated enough for us to take care of them on an individual basis. If I'm wrong about the severity of the problem, then I'm willing to change my mind. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:00, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Slicehost RSS Rerouting ==<br />
<br />
Is there any way to get the RSS feed to never switch over to the Slicehost IP? Maybe I'm the only one who bothers subscribing to the Recent Changes feed, but it's really annoying ending up with dozens of duplicate entries constantly because the feed keeps switching between sending the TFWiki.net server entries and the Slicehost duplicate entries. (Not to mention that accidentally clicking to the site from the Slicehost entries instead of the TFWiki ones lands you on the wrong server for editing. Been tripped up by that a couple times, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:35, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Out of interest, what are you using as an RSS reader? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:05, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I just use Opera's built-in RSS reader. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:34, 22 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Transform into other bots==<br />
I was wondering if this gimmick has ever been done. As an example: Ratchet transforms into Ironhide, or something like that.<br />
Its odd..a transformer becoming another one, but I HAD to ask if it'd be done or not.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]<br />
:Bizarrely, [[:Image:Skywarpatron.jpg|it almost was]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:54, 21 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Technically it ''has'' been done, if you count [[Shockwave (Animated)]] and [[Punch (G1)]]. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:40, 28 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Anon Criticism==<br />
I find this wiki to be a piece of shit. What did you hope to accomplish wih these captions? Why didn't you go to Uncyclopedia to make your articles funny? But they probably wouldn't accept on account of how lame it is. -General Q-Nek<br />
:I just realized that by reverting your post, I wasn't following my own advice. Most people here like the jokes, if you don't like them start your own Transformers related wiki. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:31, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Heck, go help the Wikia. Goodness knows they need it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::But the Wikia also has jokes on it, so it won't help our humourless anon at all! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:43, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::An entire wiki delivered completely seriously would be monotonous. As the [[Transformers Wiki:Caption]] page explains, serious captions tend to be redundant, and since Transformers is a (mostly) light-hearted kids' franchise, we might as well have fun with it. Captions are also a reward for users who are frequently helpful. And Uncyclopedia is different; their wiki is devoted entirely to nonsense, and for the most part we deliver actual information in addition to these funny captions and sometimes comments. That's how I see it. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 18:47, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::To abates, there is some talk at the wikia about getting away from the funny. If our anonymous friend can point to an instance where the humor gets in the way of the information, that particular joke might need to be changed. Otherwise, I've gotta agree with NCZ - it's about giant frickin' robots from outer space, how serious can it really be? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:00, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Yeah, what Khajidha said. While I also agree on principle that I think a serious TF wiki is probably pointless, if Wikia has to keep existing at all I'd rather see it finally go in that direction to stop being a fifth-rate copy of us. And our anon here would probably be better served helping the swap there than mouthing at us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Out of the two admins over at the Wikia, at least of them (Xeno) is firmly against losing the humour, so unfortunately I don't think it'll happen while he's in charge. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:17, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Pity. I guess Wikia's going to keep going nowhere, then, until they realize that almost everyone who's OK with editing a funny wiki is already here with us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:34, 24 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Hurr Hurr Hurrr!!! I was just joking! I wanted to see if it would get deleted. The jokes aren't to bad. ( but im still in favor of Uncyclopedia's jokes.) I actually kudos this Wikia when it comes to delivering information. A thousand lamentations. again, I thought this would be deleted, I just wanted to see how often this page would be checked. ( I guess i could of done that more efficiently.)-General Q-Nek<br />
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Also, I enjoy how calm people were when replying. I wish I had some way of helping, but I'm more of novice to the deep Transformer knowledge.-General Q-Nek<br />
:People commenting on the humor is a semi-frequent thing, so... you get used to hauling out the counterarguments.<br />
:As for how often pages get checked, most of the regulars keep frequent tabs on everything. If you want to track changes to any specific pages, you can create an account and add pages to your watchlist. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:24, 26 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Interesting, thanks for the info!-General Q-Nek<br />
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=="Games" vs. "Fiction"==<br />
I noticed in [[Optimus Prime (Prime)]] that info from ''Exodus'' is filed under "Fiction", while ''War for Cyberton'' and ''Cybertron Adventures'' is in a separate "Games" section. I didn't think this was how we did things, so I was going to put everything under "Fiction" and do away with "Games", but I double-checked some movieverse articles to be sure, and lo and behold "Games" is separate there too (such as in [[Shockwave (Movie)]]). This was an explicit change - looking in the history, the Shockwave article used to have an all-inclusive "Fiction" section. Why was this changed? Games are fiction too. I see absolutely no reason to separate them, any more than we would separate the ''Find Your Fate'' books. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:48, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
: Splitting off video game information helps pages from getting too unwieldy. Pages such as [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s are much more readable this way. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:51, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That seems really arbitrary to me. I guess there's little harm done in doing that to Cheetor's page, since the BW games are so story-light and have no impact on other fiction. But for TF:Prime it seems anti-informative: Unlike the BW games, WfC is a defining element of the larger novel/cartoon storyline. Shunting it off into a "Games" ghetto breaks up the information flow pointlessly. I think a "Games" section should be the exception, not the rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:59, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I'd actually treat WFC as the exception. It is the only video game that ever "mattered" from a story perspective. With that in mind, I would include it within Fiction. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:02, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I'd say its fiction matters very little, since the novel ''Exodus'' includes its events and supercedes it, since it's apparently written straight from the new "Prime" story bible. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:39, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::The Movieverse games are pretty story-heavy. If you look at [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], the game writeups are substantial, and there's nothing more superfluous about their continuities than the Titan comics or the Cyber Mission cartoons, which of course ''are'' included in "Fiction". I agree with the general principle that unwieldiness is a problem worth addressing, but this is an incredibly arbitrary way to fight it as an across-the-board rule. Scalpels and hammers and all that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 15:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I think I was the one who started separating them as I wrote the sections. I mainly did it for layout reasons (I prefer to make separate sections clearly defined), and I figure that given video games are usually the least-edited types of articles on this wiki, they were considered to be a lesser form of fiction than other stuff (as seen by Walky's comment about it not mattering). Also, until WFC, video game fiction tended to be splinter continuities. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::Walky's point--and it is a pertinent one, that I hadn't considered--is that in time WFC could prove to be just as much a splinter continuity. Exodus appears to be the "real" story--it certainly includes more concepts, more back history, and more of the developing brand structure that Aaron discussed in his "Once Upon A Time On Cybertron" shpiel at Botcon. WFC might differ from this "core" story the same way basically all the other games differ from theirs--and most of us ''at this point in time'' see it the other way around because we've been hearing about WFC as being the next main fiction product in and of itself since about last December, whereas ''Exodus'' was announced much more recently, seemingly out-of-the-blue, and had no advance samples / screenshots / P.R. that could compare with the WFC blitz. In other words, they treated the "real" story as an afterthought, probably because they know young kids are more into gaming than books, but in the long run WFC's fiction will matter for less. So... uhh... maybe it should stay in "Games" after all? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:44, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Sure, I get that. Even accepting that Exodus is going to be dominant (which at the moment is still a guess, albeit an educated one), I really dislike the idea of game-fiction being walled off by default just because of its medium. It's like we're saying that games ''can't'' matter. If we're going to start making value judgements about which fiction is primary and which is of secondary notice - not a bad idea, mind - I think we should do it right and apply it across the board. Like I said above, there's no real difference in those terms between the movieverse games and the Titan comics, so if one deserves to be sectioned off, then so does the other. I could see dividing the "Fiction" section between "Core continuities" and "Offshoots & micro-continuities", allowing the writeups on the movies + IDW comics to be read through without interruption. That could also help out some of our runaway G1 pages. But as it is now, picking on games is just a half-measure to muddled and weirdly prejudicial effect. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:28, 4 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Hall of Fame "faction" markers?==<br />
It dawns on me that perhaps up in the top-right with the other faction markers, we should have something indicating that this person/character is now part of the Transformers Hall of Fame. Perhaps a silver Matrix, to go along with the trophies from BC. Of course, the way Hasbro sees characters, we'd be giving this tag to four different Bumblebees, but still. I think it'd be a nice addition. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:05, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Taking the fact that they're all one character in Hasbro's eyes, should we tag the disambiguation page as well? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::No, because that's not strictly true. Predacon Megatron is apparently considered a separate "entity" from G1/Movie/Animated/Prime Megatron. Mini-Con Shockwave certainly wouldn't be considered the same as G1/En/Movie/Prime Shockwave. And let's not even go into the problems raised by putting it on the "Dinobot" disambig. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Point. But how far do we go with each "character"? Does RID count? It got no love during the clip shows. What about the Optimus cloned and tortured to become Nemesis Prime? What about Shattered Glass? If we limit ourselves to what Hasbro showed in the clip shows, then we would lose Animated Grimlock, had he won. So how far to go with this? Just hit the big ones (G1/UT/Movie/Animted/Prime) and be done with it, or go further? I just want to see this get fleshed out before we start. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::SG Prime actually was in the display case and apparently "is" Optimus Prime as far as the Hall is concerned. Yeah. So moving forward, I would suggest making a parallel structure for everybody involved: that is, if ANYBODY got a SG / UT / whatever version as "themselves," then everybody else could be seen as getting it too and, thus, SG Grimlock is "himself" and would have gotten the Matrix icon. <br />
::::The RID thing bugs me--need to look more closely at those Hall display pics and see if there was ANY relevant merch in there at all. If it wasn't.... I guess we really would leave them out. It's no harder to see RID Megs and UT Megs as "being" "the" Megatron, but... this is an area where we shouldn't try to make the rules. I just wish the people who did make them had been more consistent about it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:56, 2 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
:::::Nope, nuttin' there from RID. I looked back through the display pics. Everybody has the extended G1-iverse plus Movie and Animated. Two had UT and one had SG. I guess those are the "favored" continuities and the ones in which their character analogues would get whatever icon we choose to give. And as Siph said, there was no display "crossover" from Beasts to anywhere else, so Optimus Primal isn't Optimus Prime and we are spared that degree of headache. Though here's another one: even though Hasbro had full access to the toys, they DIDN'T include Generations Prime/Megs/BB in the displays, so does that mean the Prime characters are not "themselves"? But Shattered Glass IS? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I bet RID clips didn't show up because of the usual Disney stuff. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:29, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::I think you are over thinking it. The thing to ask yourself is, would Hasbro even consider RID Prime or Predacon Megatron for a spot of their own in the Hall of Fame? No, probably not, since "Optimus Prime" and "Megatron" pretty much covers them. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:38, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
I would extend this to also putting gold Matrix icons on the real-life people that got hall-of-famed.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:47, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I concur. At least that's easy. We don't have multiple Peter Cullen articles floating around here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:49, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:For an image, how about the [[:Image:BotCon2010-HOFkeepsake.jpg|silhouette of the statue seen here]]? It could be cleaned up a bit and made black and white. It could also be a little larger than our current icons. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:54, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::That is totally not going to be recognizable at faction icon size.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:55, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
[[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|thumb|right]]<br />
It'll have to wait until I get home from work tonight, but I feel confident I could make an icon based off of the stylized Matrix and starburst circle around it that the tops of the trophies had. I'll post it here once I have it done, and we can tweak it if we don't like it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 12:06, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Alright, here's my first stab at it. If it were faction-icon sized, it'd look like this: [[Image:Hall of fame icon test.png|30px]]<br />
<br />
:Whaddaya think? Will that hold up to being recolored gold and silver?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:07, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Hot damn, looks good to me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:33, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Looks great! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:40, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Alright, the factions template code for these are "hofgold" and "hofsilver". I've tagged all the real-life inductees, as well as put a silver icon on Dinobot, but now I'm heading out to do a grocery run. Anybody should be able to tag the rest now, but I'll work on tagging some when I get back if there are any left.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:53, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== The 11000th article ==<br />
<br />
I think was [[Assembly]]. Wheeeee! Sorry, Irvine, you missed it by one... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:46, 2 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== BigBadToyStore ==<br />
<br />
Does that deserve an article yet? (maybe to go in the "Retailers" category) They got their first Hasbro exclusive (see http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/product.aspx?product=has19150&mode=retail). [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:02, 3 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== What's Canon For Each Continuity ==<br />
<br />
OK, after watching one seriously stupid and quite frankly embarrassing mess of a thread on the Allspark, I feel a need to say something. Namely that I'm really tired of our tendency to apply cross-continuity retcons all over the place.<br />
<br />
Yes, everything official is canon for some continuity. But the key here is SOME CONTINUITY. I think we need to stop treating any details that take place in one continuity as if they definitely for sure affect another separate continuity. We need to start dropping the 100% in-universe conceit just a little and acknowledging the real-life reality of things. Namely that even if elements of one continuity are borrowed into another, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers of that continuity borrowed from have to acknowledge it in their own storyline. In fact, in some cases they even explicitly don't.<br />
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Just to borrow one scenario, every time we go "Oh, well, this event that happened in an Animated book/FunPub story uses some Movie concept, so obviously it's now canon for the Movie fiction too!" we just confuse the matter by presenting as canon for the Movie continuity things that have not actually happened in the actual Movie fiction, and may never actually happen in the future. Since the Movie writers--to be quite blunt and bringing in a dose of cold hard reality--probably do not know or care what an Animated reference or a FunPub story have done in their universe.<br />
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I'm not saying we shouldn't document this sort of cross-continuity mention at all, but merging pages based on it and writing it up in the main continuity sections and all that, well, it's just really getting to the point of being stupid and confusing. I'm starting to feel like, instead of getting to just write stuff up based on what happened in the actual fiction for each continuity, or what the writers who are actually in charge of writing each continuity actually said about their own continuity, now I gotta worry about mind-reading the wiki's pet fanon theories about which things that were never meant to be related by the actual authors go together after all.<br />
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And when it leads to things like some of us on the forums actually trying to tell the authors that we know better than they do about what they have planned for ''their own storylines''... just, come on people.<br />
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Yeah, I know I'm probably the only person who actually feels this way and you're just going to heap insults on me, but I'm just tired of this, especially to the degrees it's been going on lately. It makes the wiki confusing and ridiculous for me to both read and edit, especially when done in the sheer volume it's been done lately, and I don't like being in the position of feeling this negatively towards our setup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:22, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:This is a little too generic a rant to be helpful. Obviously, you're talking about the Sideways merger. What else, specifically, is being affected by this sort of thing? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 22:32, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::And Alignment supposedly being canon. And the renaming of the G1 characters. And merging Alpha Trion's pages. And really the whole multiversal singularity in general and everything related to that. And... etc. etc. (At least the whole thing with Sentinel Major was finally stopped by the affected author in question putting his foot down and people eventually relenting.) It's been bugging me for a while, but the mess lately was really kind of just the last straw where it tipped into "OK, this is just starting to get unignorably dumb" territory. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:50, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Whatever Hasbro approves of is canon. It doesn't matter if people are annoyed by it or it goes against original authorial intent. Transformers is Hasbro's property and if they sign their name off on something, it is canon.<br />
::::Pretty much. There's no question a lot of fanon made its way into the AAII, but it's official now. You can blame the writers for taking advantage of their official positions to win internet arguments, but you can't blame the Wiki for acknowledging what they got published. As for Alpha Trion, he now has the dubious honor of being one of the 13, a multiversal singularity. Merging his pages had to be done -- he can't just be one of the 13 in SOME continuities, b/c the whole point of the 13 up til now is that there's only one of each of them in the multiverse. Does it make sense that G1 Alpha Trion and SG Alpha Trion are the same guy? No, not really. But it's the officially mandated position of Hasbro now, so...roll with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:10, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::It's official for Animated. But last I knew, Sorenson was not licensed to write fiction for anything but the Animated continuity, so what he says in the Almanac is only canon for Animated and is a footnote at best in those other continuities.<br />
:::::Now, when the actual Movie writers make some fiction officially licensed as a part of the Movie continuity saying that ROTF Sideways is the same all the other Sideways, then it'll actually be full canon for the Movie continuity.<br />
:::::Likewise, Alpha Trion is a member of the 13 in Exodus, which is a part of the Prime continuity. I missed the part where that constitutes official fiction for any of the other continuities. Again, footnote sure, but until we get official fiction corroborating from those other continuities...<br />
:::::He certainly can be a singularity in only those continuities that actually use the singularity. Again, step outside of the in-universe a bit and accept that in the real world the different writing teams can and do end up doing different things with their characters and storylines. They don't always fit into a nice tidy bow, and I do not think it should be our job to fanwank it into doing so; it should just be our job to present the canon as-is for each continuity's actual fiction, even if that means some contradictions.<br />
:::::Like I said, we should not be misrepresenting things that did not happen in the official fiction specific to a continuity as if it actually did, just because it happened in an entirely separate continuity.<br />
:::::Because, what Exodus does is no more "officially mandated by Hasbro" than what IDW does, what Animated does, what the Movies do, etc. It's ''all'' official fiction. For ''some'' continuity. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:35, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::The entire point of a multiversal singularity is that who and what they are is official across ALL continuities. To say Alpha Trion can be a multiversal singularity only in Prime continuity is a contradiction of terms.<br />
::::::And "official by Hasbro" means "official by Hasbro". I don't understand where this dissection of Animated and Movie universes is coming from. Sorenson wasn't given a license to Animated continuity and Michael Bay a license to Movie continuity...they were each just told to make something for Hasbro's Transformers property. The franchise indicator / universal stream breakdown for the fiction is an IN-fiction construct, not a legal distinction of rights between contributors. The movie writers don't have any more rights to those characters or properties than Sorenson, or Fun Pub, or IDW. They're all working for Hasbro. Like that quote from Nick Roche about how he thought he'd get to tell the story of Kup's reactivation, but IDW let Shane McCarthy do what he wanted with the character. IDW Kup is IDW's baby, not Roche's. They got to decide when and where he was used. And Sideways (ROTF) is Hasbro's baby, not some movie writer's. Sorenson was authorized to write about Hasbro's intellectual property called ''The Transformers'', employing the universal stream distinction for their individual franchises. Ergo, anything published in Allspark Almanac II was true for anything it said it was true for...it wasn't somehow "limited" just to Animated concepts. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:55, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::You're right that that's a contradiction in terms. But it only matters as much as we care about presenting the multiverse as though it's a real, consistent world. It's a fun conceit, and it subtly underlies a lot of what we do... but it's worth questioning. Which do we value more when there's a conflict: the integrity of a series, or multiversal decrees? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:16, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::Hasbro "signs off" on the notion that everybody ever named Optimus Prime is the exact same character. Their use of terminology is not exactly the same as ours. We've been working around that for years. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:03, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Good point. It's also been [[Continuity#Unified Japanese continuities|officially declared]] that RiD and the movieverse are in-continuity with G1. We never even ''tried'' to take that seriously, so why should be obligated to accept these other cross-continuity declarations?<br />
:::::We're at a very interesting decision point here. Before it was ever acknowledged officially, the idea of the TF multiverse was accepted by fans as simply an in-universe way of giving equal regard to all of the contradictory series. But over the last decade or so, the multiverse has oozed into canon in a slipshod, right-hand-doesn't-know-what-the-left-is-doing, nobody-at-the-wheel way. And we who have taken up the burden of documenting it are starting to feel the strain of untangling the crush of continuities elbowing each other and stepping on each other's feet.<br />
:::::I'm not sure what the ideal approach is; I wonder how comic-book wikis have dealt with this. My personal preference, as I [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Alpha_Trion|elaborated elsewhere]], is to try to portray each series as it defines itself, giving only passing credence to cross-series retcons and decrees. I certainly haven't thought through all the practical ramifications, but it seems the most rational starting point to me.<br />
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:58, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::RID (or ''Car Robots'', rather) is absolutely in the G1 continuity family. Just on the Japanese side. The movie thing only came up in one website timeline. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:12, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::You are mistaken. RID is not in G1, but Car Robots is. Our RID is a distinct cluster (Viron) from G1 (Primax). RID and CR are in different clusters. But to keep us from having duplicate articles for everybody in Car Robots/RID, we note what's going on (or we should). We had this discussion a while ago, and I guess you weren't there or something. Japan once claimed that the movie (well, their version of the movie) took place in G1. This didn't end up happening and Japanese stuff since has ignored that tidbit, but even if it hadn't, their movie is not the same "universal stream" as ours to begin with. It would be the same thing as RID/CR. We don't ignore these things. --[[Special:Contributions/65.60.140.213|65.60.140.213]] 00:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Thank you for the clarification. And to clarify my own words, I never meant to suggest that we did or should ''ignore'' anything. It's all a matter of relative value. If, for instance, we placed a high value on the Japanese timeline and the attendant CR/RiD split, we WOULD have separate articles or more prominent declarations or ''something'' more than we currently do, which is just about jack (as evidenced by my ignorance). On the flipside, we ARE placing a high value on the FunPub model of the multiverse, letting it dictate article structure and primary presentation. We're even letting it define post-FunPub claims: As far as I know, all that the ''Prime'' universe has said about its Alpha Trion is that he was one of the original 13 TFs, a claim that has no multiversal relevance at ALL unless you apply the FunPub notion that The 13 are singularities. If we valued the FunPub model at the same level we do the Japanese continuity, we wouldn't be arguing over how that chain of cross-continuity associations should define our article structure. We'd just default to the normal continuity-family schema and make notes as appropriate. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::Well, we have a separate [[:Category:Car Robots characters|category]] with all of the alternate names. We also have write ups for [[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Kiss Players|Brave Maximus's adventures in ''Kiss Players'']]. What is it you're looking for to prove we acknowledge CR as part of the G1 family? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:57, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::If you want to argue it some more, Jackpot, [[Talk:Robots_in_Disguise_(franchise)#Car_Robots|have at it]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:58, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::Thanks for the link. I did indeed miss that whole discussion. But I have less than zero desire to argue against anything in it, and you're missing my point completely if you think that's what I'm even talking about. Yes, fine, we take the Japanese CR/G1 thing seriously, but even Interrobang's examples still demonstrate that we acknowledge it ''secondarily,'' through redirects and notes. The end result of that linked discussion was that we DON'T change our article structures or primary presentations to accomodate it. As opposed to the FunPub model of the multiverse, which we HAVE been allowing to dictate our presentation, at least up until the new Alpha Trion thing generated this debate. All I'm saying is that we have more than one established option for dealing with cross-continuity declarations, which means the question of how we deal with singularities isn't as open-and-shut as some think it is. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::You do have to agree that the CR/RID thing is a special case in that it would require that we have 100-plus articles that are exactly the same other than what they're named at the top. (And X-Brawn's personality would be different.) This is not the case for multiversal stuff, since it does not require us to be redundant on such a massive scale. I'm not sure why you think our attempt at avoiding massive redundancy should dictate how we treat entirely dissimilar things. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:14, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::I'm not saying that the CR-G1 thing should ''dictate'' what we do the FunPub stuff, just that it's a precedent worth considering. In fact, I believe you and I are closer in principle than you think. If we allowed the Japanese model of the multiverse to guide our presentation, we would indeed have to do this massively redundant re-org, but we've collectively decided it's not worth it, so we don't. You and I are on the same page there. What I'm doing is using the same principle to say that we likewise don't have to let the FubPub model of the multiverse make us jump up and rearrange article content every time we hear a whisper of "singularity." We can still present all the same information, but reprioritize it ''underneath'' our tried-and-true foundation of dividing articles by continuity-family.<br />
:::::::::::::Here's an example of how this might work (I'm thinking out loud here, so don't take this as me drawing a line in the sand or whatever): In Alpha Trion's case, we could keep all the pages separate but, say, add a line to the end of each intro: "According to some sources, this Alpha Trion is the same individual as all the rest," with appropriate links. It would be more prominent than burying it in "Trivia," but not so dominant that it dictates our entire presentation. It also would give breathing room to the various ways the character has been portrayed, so the reader can get a better sense of the pieces that make up the whole, rather than get a giant, muddled, ill-conceived "whole" that we all think is kind of silly anyway. The ''Prime'' version of AT would be written up with a more multiversal slant than the rest, of course, but I don't think we'd need to jam ''everything'' onto his page to get that point across. In the end, we would still be documenting all of the info and ignoring nothing, but I think the presentation would be much more in-line with the reality of how the character has actually been written over the years.<br />
:::::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:28, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Yeah, I lean about the same way as Jackpot. The Multiverse thing was fine when it was just a vague umbrella to tie together a hundred different continuities. But having one story or source reach out and re-write details of half a dozen other stories at the same time? I dunno so much about that. Seems to me that things like "Alpha Trion the old doddering cartoon guy is a multiversal singularity according to whatever source" ought to be kept in a Notes box or section, not integrated alongside info that actually came directly from the G1 cartoon. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:15, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::There's an irony in the fact that the multiverse started as a tool for the fans to keep order and sanity in spite of the TFverse's freewheeling structure. I remember for YEARS the doctrine of "everything is canon, there are just multiple continuities" had to be diligently repeated in forum threads before it took hold in fandom zeitgeist. But now that the creators have gotten into the multiverse game without giving up the loose approach, our tool has been turned against us. There's no handy maxim to settle things anymore. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:20, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:It is a little bit more difficult to brush these things off when the fiction is explicitly dealing with "The [[Multiverse]]". It is officially establishing new facts in multiple timestreams. I say this as someone who doesn't always like it when long-time nameless things get retroactive names. The Alignment thing is kind of wonky. It goes beyond the Multiverse and sort of breaks the fourth wall and directly tweaks real-world information. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:37, 5 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::My prediction: this Multiverse hogwash will get way too overcomplicated. It's then going to get some much tangled up, no one will ever be able to figure out anything. Giant crisis cross-over's gonna happen, DC Comics style. Continuity will get completely rebooted. The Fandom will flip their collective shit over it. I'll be here chilling while everyone's still throwing around cluster f-bombs. Don't worry about it guys, it's not our jobs to fix it, just to record it as it happens. Write it all down, let Hasbro sort it out. :P --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 02:00, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I think that's already happening with ''Exodus''{{'}}s continuity mixing (although it contradicted the game lol). ''Transformers: Prime'' probably doesn't just mean the show's focus on what it means to be a Prime, but also literally being an [[Wikipedia:Earth Prime|Earth Prime]] for the multiverse. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 04:53, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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''Disclaimer: I like they way we have been doing things and don't mind multiversal retcons. It's all just fiction, one continuity effecting another is cool to me, and the more layers it gets the more fun, IMO.'' '''THAT SAID:''' If there's a conflict, I'm with the "ours is not to reason why (or make un-stupid) ours is but to record" crowd. When a new source changes a past source I say we give '''NEITHER''' precedence but record both with equal weight on the page. One Alpha Trion page, but we make it very clear on the page that X is what he was like in the G1 toon, and Y is what a later source says he is. Put the focus on simply '''Recording Information''' rather than prioratizing it. It may require stepping "out of universe" a little more often in our entries, but that's a good thing if it clarifies the expression of information, our main goal. (Just like how we forgo humorous picture captions when we need a real one to express something clearly to the reader.) My 2-cents.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 07:31, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Just a side note, my 3rd cent if you will, this is pretty much already how we do [[Unicron]], with details of his various retconed backstories and the current story's conflicts all recorded "Out of universe" clearly and prominently on the page. Its a good model for Alpha Trion, Sideways and all to follow, IMO. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 09:28, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::Sound good to me. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 10:42, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I'm with Zac on this. My understanding is Alpha Trion is now officially a multiversal singularity solely because someone put up a slide with his name on it at BotCon. If that's all we've got to go on, it's obviously not going to make much sense, but that's not Hasbro's problem -- they can't make announcements in a time and manner that makes it easy for the Wiki to record the information. We just have to roll with the punches and make the changes that are necessary to reflect the official information. There's no point in complaining about the fact that this information exists; that's an issue for message boards or your blog.<br />
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::So A3 is a multiversal singularity now. Them's the breaks. If we need to do some tongue-in-cheek writing to acknowledge it (like the openings for [[Scrapper (G1)#Cartoon continuity|Scrapper]] and [[Scavenger (G1)#Cartoon continuity|Scavenger]] in their cartoon fiction section), then we do it. But arguing about this and the AAII and whether official info counts or doesn't count unless it was published in the right medium or with the right franchise header is asinine. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 10:37, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::It's not asinine at all. Different branded fiction in the TFverse has different editorial and writing boards writing it. Different companies have different licenses to create specific types of media, explicitly not being allowed to create media they're not licensed for. Hasbro has demonstratively shown a very anal and strong hand in making sure that things like the Movie comics fit into canon. In at least one case we know of (FunPub), there are even specific mandates about which continuities can't be directly written in/for by that company and which continuities aren't affected by their fiction. So Hasbro, at least, is actually shown to be very clear about who can write in what medium and for what storyline, and what is and isn't allowed in a certain storyline.<br />
:::Meanwhile, I have no problem acknowledging that Trion is a singularity in those continuities that have one. But the fact of the real-life situation is that not every continuity uses the concept.<br />
:::We need to accept that the real-life factual way this all has been working up until now does not always fit tidily or work how we wish it would work. And like I said, it's our job to report on what officially happened, not our fanwank theories. Especially when this wiki is theoretically supposed to be for those fans looking for information on what actually has happened in official fiction, not what we wish would happen. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:05, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Saying FunPub can't publish movie material b/c Hasbro won't allow it is one thing; saying material that WAS published should be ignored or disavowed is another. Again, assumptions -- you have no evidence that Hasbro said the Allspark Almanac was NOT allowed to reference other continuities, and the Almanac itself is evidence that Hasbro DID allow it. The proof is in the publication...to go beyond that is you assuming you know Hasbro's policies better than the Hasbro employees who allowed the Almanac to be printed in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 12:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Actually, it's the other way around. Since the Almanac is branded only as a guide to Animated (and thus very likely did not go through the same editorial process that the branded fiction in the other continuities goes through, only Animated's process), and Hasbro has been shown to be very anal about the info that goes into its officially branded fiction in other continuities, you need proof that Hasbro approved the Almanac as anything but a guide to Animated. Anything else is an unfounded assumption with no proof. Especially when, like I said, we instead have explicit proof that continuities are not always obligated to acknowledge cross-continuity mentions, and that some companies aren't even allowed to write any direct canon at all in some continuities.<br />
:::::The only thing the publication of the Almanac proves is that it was approved as Animated fiction, since that's what it's branded and marketed as. Going beyond that is you assuming you know Hasbro's policies at all. Because I've never seen anything that indicates that Hasbro considers cross-continuity retcons to be binding, and in fact have seen several indications that they don't, so I sure as heck am not going to be making any assumption about that matter.<br />
:::::On top of that, when it comes to Sentinel Major, we know 100% for certain that the Almanac was not approved by Hasbro as being binding to FunPub fiction, based on Pete stating it's not as FunPub's Head Editor, so that calls into doubt its so-called applicability to any other continuity as well. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:44, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::No, Jeysie...no. A thousand times no. "The only thing the publication of the Almanac proves is that it was approved <strike>as Animated fiction</strike>." You're the one assuming the Animated brand has weight and meaning beyond being a mast head. You're the one assuming Sorenson was told he can only write Animated fiction. You're the one assuming b/c FunPub has a certain type of limitation, every other publication has something similar even though we've heard nothing about that from Hasbro or the writing team. And you're the one assuming that Hasbro didn't mean to publish things it actually DID publish.<br />
::::::All the assumptions here are on you. I don't need to prove your elaborate series of assumptions about the inner workings of Hasbro are false. You need to prove they are true. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:08, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::Yes, a thousand times yes. If anyone can publish any fiction in any continuity at any time, why bother branding it or having dedicated regular writing teams or anything at all? Why not just brand everything as Transformers with zero differences and let all the writers write whatever they want in any series?<br />
:::::::Why would Hasbro work closely with teams like the WFC folks or the Movie comic folks to make sure everything matches up the way they want it if they didn't care about the continuities of those series? Why would Hasbro do things like disallow FunPub from writing their own OC ever again because they want to use him in their new continuity? Why would they turn around and give one-liner cameos in completely unrelated fiction a free pass to affect those other continuities?<br />
:::::::Yes, I do assume that the Animated brand has weight beyond being a masthead. If this very wiki assumes that the logo has meaning for the toys, why is the fiction about those toys magically exempt? It fits into franchises exactly the same way, and indeed we actually have made decisions on this very precept. (The discussion of treating the ROTF toys ''and fiction'' as separate from the 2K7 line, and whether we should treat the SG ''fiction'' as SG vs. as Timelines-branded fiction comes to mind off the top of my head.)<br />
:::::::Not only that, but the Almanac is very clearly being marketed to customers as being based in Animated, as a guide to Animated. There's literally nothing about the Almanac at all that says customers should be expected, in a marketing sense, to treat it as also being a guide to anything else; no extra official logos, I'm assuming no editorial note to the effect in the book (if anything, we had the exact opposite statement from Sorenson himself!), etc.<br />
:::::::On top of that, like I said, Mowry got ridden to keep continuity in his Movie comics. So basically, to reiterate, you're trying to tell me that the guy tapped to write directly-branded fiction gets paid close attention to by Hasbro, but an admitted throwaway joke in a completely different continuity that contradicts officially-branded Movie fiction gets waved through, no worries?<br />
:::::::And again, like I said for the umpteenth time, we have '''direct evidence''' that no, the Almanac is not canon for all other continuities, and that no, other continuities don't necessarily have to care what fiction in other continuities do.<br />
:::::::And I have proved that my assumptions are true, based on, like I've already said umpteen times, direct evidence of how Hasbro has handled things. I've given you evidence of licensing restrictions, continuity restrictions, how Hasbro edits the canon for each storyline, how some continuities explicitly don't acknowledge others, etc.<br />
:::::::Meanwhile, all you've given me is your assumptions based on... well, nothing at all except your own assumptions. I'd say the burden of proof is on you, bub. You've been feeding me nothing but a lot of illogical statements that make no sense compared to how writing a storyline actually works or even how the treatment of the various bits of fiction by the licensees and Hasbro has been shown to work in reality. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:48, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::Yes. Very much so. And more, why we should care over the simple and logical: "Hasbro aproves it, then its canon for whatever continuity(ies) it says it is." rule we have now.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:29, 6 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
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:::::::::Because it's not logical at all.<br />
:::::::::The logical thing to do is assume that what's canon for a continuity is the official fiction for that continuity and what the people actually writing said fiction have said is canon. Because that way you're getting the fiction how it was supposed to be presented in a literary sense, in terms of what the people actually writing it intended as canon for their story.<br />
:::::::::Meanwhile, there's absolutely zero logical about assuming that someone who has no connection at all to the regular writing or editing of a story should know anything about it or should make an official contribution to it. Nor is there anything logical about assuming to be part of a story things that were never intended to be in it.<br />
:::::::::I mean, for heavens sake, the various writers can't even keep their ''own'' continuities straight half the time, and we have lots of errors in stories that were explicitly meant to go together. Why compound the problem by linking together things that ''weren't'' meant to go together? It makes no sense at all from a literary standpoint, from a practical standpoint, or from the standpoint of a casual reader who wants to know what actually happened in a certain continuity, not what we fans think happened based on fanon speculation. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:58, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::I'd agree. [[Prowl II]] was pretty much the same "two different guys smashed together into one big continuity monster because of a reference book" situation, and nobody's split him back up into Chip Chase-in-a-Prowl-suit and Prowl the Owl. [[User:Omnibus|Omnibus]] 11:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Gotta go with Zac and company here. These things have been said, we need to record it. Put any notes about possible problems and confusions, but I don't see how to get around the bare fact that it has been done. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:39, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::If this is such a big deal, for Sideways, might I suggest considering something similar to what we did with [[Ramulus]]'s page, because of the ambiguity of his identity as Longhorn? Two seperate pages, but still presented with the facts that we know of them being hinted as the same character. Or heck, even [[Lazorbeak]] has a nice note noting that he may-or-may-not-be the original Laserbeak. It's not like we have just two options in this matter really. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:05, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:Quoting Zac: ''When a new source changes a past source I say we give '''NEITHER''' precedence but record both with equal weight on the page. One Alpha Trion page, but we make it very clear on the page that X is what he was like in the G1 toon, and Y is what a later source says he is.'' It's impossible NOT to prioritize. By advocating the merging of singularity pages, you're giving priority to that kind of retcon. That's really what all of this is about - no one is saying we should IGNORE canon information, just that we should think twice about letting every new multiversal declaration make us rearrange how we structure our presentation. See my proposal above - there are other ways of doing this. It's a pure strawman to say that anything other than page-merging is anti-canon chaos. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:47, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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<nowiki>*</nowiki>wearily just gestures that she thinks Jackpot's arguments and suggestions make sense* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
=== Does Hasbro Matter? ===<br />
<br />
''(Moved down from earlier in the down in an attempt to keep things organized.)''<br />
<br />
:::::Exactly. That's why Jeysies idea of how continuity should work strikes me as very very '''wrong'''. The ONLY way we have of determining what is official canon in TF is by what Hasbro officially publishes. PERIOD. If you start allowing people to say "Hasbro didn't really ''mean'' that" or "Hasbro didn't know what they were saying" or "Hasbro didn't mean to approve what they clearly approved" then you open up EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING to any interpretation or negation that any fan wants to pull out of nowhere. That way lies complete dissolution of all meaning and canon. You don't know better that Hasbro what they mean or what's "right". Feel free to HATE retcons and multi-sings but they exist: Hasbro MADE THEM and HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEM and so it is this wiki's purpose to record that, not put our heads in the sand and imagine "they can't do that" shape the fiction into the shape we'd prefer.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 12:47, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::Well, you know, I'm only going by the real-life facts of how the reality actually works regards Hasbro's licenses, different editorial and writing boards, different brandings on each fiction, statements from actual creators (including Sorenson himself), etc. But I guess clearly our pet fanwank takes precedent over the facts and reality presented to us by the people actually officially creating the fiction?<br />
::::::I mean, like I said above, we already have one instance where we know 100% for certain that what was written in the Almanac is not canon for a non-Animated continuity. And even Sorenson stated himself that the jokey references were just that: jokey references.<br />
::::::No, I don't know for sure what Hasbro's full policies are. Just that, unlike you folks, I'm thus playing it safe and only assuming what we have proof to assume, based on actual real-world facts.<br />
::::::I don't hate retcons or the multiversal concept. Nor am I basing my case on which retcons I do and don't like: for instance, I hate McCarthy's retcons, but since he's a writer hired specifically to write in IDW's G1 continuity, his retcons are nonetheless considered by the people actually creating the continuity as canon for that continuity.<br />
::::::I am just stating that we have zero proof that said retcons or concepts absolutely have to apply to anything but the specific continuities they were presented in, and instead plenty of proof that in many cases they explicitly ''don't'' apply outside their specific continuities. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:59, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Yes Hasbro controls who publishes what. Of course they do. No one is arguing otherwise. That doesn't matter at all and SHOULDN'T matter at all as far as the wiki is concerned. What matters is '''what they alowed to be published.''' If its published, its canon. If something is published that is a mostly an Animated story but touches on G1 continuity because of dimensional travel that DOSN'T mean it isn't G1 canon because it was "An Animated" story, it means that the story was a "G1 and Animated crossover story" and what it said is canon to both. If Hasbro says something is a Multiversal Singularity and that this means there is only ONE if it in ALL continuities, than we have to accept that this means what it says: ALL CONTINUITIES. <br />
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:::::If we start assuming that not everything Hasbro publishes is canon, or that they "Maybe did't mean that, really" then we have no way to diffentiate official from fanon at all. We've never had a rule about one branded fiction "not being able to effect" other branded canon because 1) thats counter to the whole Multiverse idea that Hasbro's very much embraced, and 2) Hasbro themselves clearly DO NOT have such a rule in 99% of cases, or they wouldn't approve so many dimension hopping character or stories. Hasbro does approve stories where continuities cross over and effect one another and that retcon past continuities (like it or not) so they are canon and its our job to record them as we are given them. Not to make value judgements about how much Hasbro "meant them". --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 13:09, 6 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
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::::::Again, as I've stated several times already, I never said some things weren't canon. But ''which continuity they're canon for'' is the question.<br />
::::::I mean, I've absolutely no argument whatsoever at all about the info in the Almanac being canon for Animated, seeing as how it's branded with the Animated logo. So I'm not saying that the Almanac isn't canon. But that means zero about whether it's canon ''for any other continuity''. And we know in at least one instance it ''explicitly isn't''.<br />
::::::And, *facepalm* Like I said, some continuities have explicitly actually been stated as ''not'' being a part of or beholden to the multiversal concept or cross-continuity retcons. And just because one continuity does dimension-hopping doesn't mean any other continuity is obligated to actually care. Each storyline has a separate set of dedicated writers and editors all doing their own thing. We have no evidence showing they ''have'' to pay attention to each other (though some obviously choose to), and some evidence of cases where they quite explicitly don't. That's the whole reason to for continuities and micro-continuities and splinter continuities in the first place, acknowledging that something that's canon for one continuity may not be canon for another. We just need to finally accept that reality across the board.<br />
::::::Also, when we do this sort of cross-continuity retcon, we're accepting the thought that people who are not part of a continuity's dedicated regular writers and editors and thus probably know nothing about what those people are doing with their storyline still know what's going on in it canonically. Even more moronically, sometimes we even do this over the word of the people ''actually writing the contested storyline''! If people can't realize how utterly stupid that is (I mean, just because I'm officially writing in one continuity doesn't mean I know jack about what the writing team in another continuity is doing)...<br />
::::::And no, saying that Hasbro's word goes doesn't mean anything, because if Hasbro were really truly mandating all of these cross-continuity things, then the people writing those other continuities ''would be forced to use them and thus wouldn't be claiming they don't apply or contradicting them in the actual fiction''. I would think this would be obvious logic... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:34, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::To address your points in order:<br />
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:::::::1) Anything aproved by Hasbro is canon. We both agree there, yes? Why, then, do you think there is debate about what continuity it is canon for? If Hasbro publishes a story that touches on any and all continuites then '''it is canon for those continuities'''. Were they to have, say, RiD and BW crossover than YES it IS DEFINATLY canon for both RiD and BW. Why? Because that's what they published. To imagine anything else is counter intuitive, overly complicated, and putting the determining factor for canon on US rather than Hasbro, which is WRONG. You don't have to like it, but there it is. Any other way is uselessly arbitrary and complex. <br />
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:::::::2)No I do not believe any continuity has been confirmed by Hasbro to be outside the Multiverse. If fact they've said the opposite, that the multiverse contains all TF universes. And that Singularities specifically exist in All Continuities. (Thats what it MEANS.) FP said informally they wouldn't touch the movie stuff with their fiction because the Movie stuff is an exceptional really complicated issue driven by outside powers, that's not saying that its outside the multiversal stuff, as Hasbro has specifically published a SCRAP-TON of stuff connecting the movie continuity family to the greater multiverse.<br />
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:::::::3)Sorry to be blunt but I don't think Creators mater here at all. They're totally beside the point. "Dedicated fiction teams" (in the rare cases they exist) don't matter. They're all "work for hire" folks who come and go. Hasbro is the authority on whats canon. They have to be or there is no canon. <br />
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:::::::4)Your final paragraph above is absolutly wrong and missing the point IMO. The only way we have and ''have ever had'' of establishing what is official TF canon is by what Hasbro approves. It doesn't matter if they "enforce" a storyline on every writer for it to be canon. All that matters is that they approve it to be published. That's what makes canon. Thats the only thing that can make canon. If you start doing what you're doing and saying "Oh they can't really mean that, because x" or "they can't let x writer retcon the work of y writer" then you are making yourself the judge of canon and it stops being official canon. We have to stick to "Everything Hasbro publishes is official canon for the universe (all universes) that the story says it is" or we're just making up fanon. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 14:19, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:1. Because we the wiki DOES debate what continuity something is canon for. Why do we have continuity families, continuities, micro-continuities, splinter timelines, etc. at all if we don't care about what goes in what continuity? Why did we split up ROTF from 2K7--both the toys AND the fiction--if the branding doesn't matter? Why did we debate whether SG--again, both toys AND fiction--counts as SG or Timelines based on how the fiction is branded if the branding doesn't matter?<br />
:To me, assuming that fiction in one continuity somehow affects fiction in another continuity is what is extremely counter-intuitive, based on both my personal experience as a writer and my experience of what has happened in real-life vs. what the actual creators themselves have said about how various bits of fiction do and don't fit together.<br />
:It is, however, completely intuitive to assume that if a bit of fiction is branded for a continuity, it's canon for THAT continuity. That's the whole damn point of the branding to begin with, to signal to readers that this fiction, this toy, this tech spec, belongs to THIS certain franchise/universe/continuity.<br />
:As for it being overly complicated, I actually consider it more overly complicated to do lots of fanwank academic gymnastics to try and figure out how to things that were never meant to fit together and might well be completely contradictory fit together after all. Like I've said elsewhere, it's not as if stories that actually ''were'' meant to fit together don't manage to have enough errors already anyway, without us helping things along.<br />
:I will concede it might be more complicated for us to catalog, but tough shit, reality doesn't always play nice with what you want.<br />
:2. I've never heard a single statement that says all continuities have to include the multiversal concept. Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary. That the Movies are outside of the multiversal idea. That bits of the Almanac explicitly aren't canon for some continuities. Statements from creators about their own continuities... who, like I said, would not be making those statements if Hasbro had actually mandated differently to them.<br />
:3. XD You can't be serious. Yes, the people directly writing each continuity matter because, um, you know, they're the ones ''actually writing the stories''. Dur. Yes, writing teams change, but they change ''within those continuities''. For instance, when McCarthy took over for Furman, he took over under IDW's editorial, writing for IDW's storyline. He didn't take over for Animated, he didn't take over for the Movies, he isn't working for Prime, he doesn't work for FunPub. He's the new guy for a specific company under a specific editor for a specific continuity.<br />
:And yes, what Hasbro says is canon. For some continuity. And again, if Hasbro was actually mandating all these cross-continuity claims, we wouldn't even be having this debate to begin with because ''all of the fiction and statements from the creators would reflect that'' so there would be no argument. I've seen plenty of evidence that Hasbro cares very much about what goes on in certain specific continuities. I've seen no evidence at all of Hasbro mandating cross-continuity things, however, and in fact just the opposite.<br />
:4. Just the opposite, it's utterly making up fanon to assume that things branded as one continuity have any affect at all on a completely different continuity, even when those people claim different or even write official fiction stating differently. It's fanon to assume that we fans or people not assigned to write directly for a continuity know better about what is planned for that other continuity than the people who actually are writing for that continuity. (Not to mention, to be quite blunt about it, just plain fucking stupid.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:23, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::From your second point; if the movies are outside the multiverse idea, why do at least two multiversal singularities appear in it? Or do Unicron and the Fallen not count? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:27, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I think [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Another perspective on Multiuniversal Singularities|this covers it pretty well]]. But the short version, they're versions of Unicron and the Fallen who aren't singularities. Pretty simple. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:55, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::The writing in one continuity does not affect any other continuity/ies.... ''except when it does''. Animated Arcee being a schoolteacher does not make G1 Arcee a schoolteacher. A god warping the fabric of reality such that every entity ever named Arcee is now said to have been a schoolteacher DOES make G1 Arcee a schoolteacher. Sideways being long-established for years as having had the power to warp from one continuity to the next means that he actually can do that, and the things he's said to do in some continuity he hadn't visited earlier can certainly be attributed to him, being there, doing it. If the writers go all-out along those lines and it gets published, then it is canon. I know there's a fair amount of author-intent debating here every now and then, but I don't think "in-continuity author intent supremacy" is a popularly-held viewpoint, let alone one stable enough on which to build this wiki in the future. We would certainly have to un-happen Beast Machines, which we're bloody well not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:36, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::I can't speak for Jeysie's view, but I do think that series-integrity should be given higher priority than we currenty do, and I see absolutely no need to "un-happen ''Beast Machines''." The changes being discussed are a lot subtler than that. As I see it, all we need to do to maintain BW's integrity despite BM's retcons is just to make sure we don't, for example, talk about the Allspark in a section titled "''Beast Wars'' cartoon". Which is pretty much how it is now, so no big deal. Where this really comes into play is the singularity stuff; jamming everything into a single article fosters a sense of retcon-supremacy. If it's our goal to try to present the multiverse as a single, cohesive whole, then yes, I would agree that the retcons should be given primacy. But I see no particular reason to give that conceit so much weight. Each series has its own view of the multiverse (or none at all), and it's a ''choice'' on our part as to how to present it when one series's multiverse-model treads on another series's territory. We don't have the choice of ''ignoring'' it... but we do have options for how it affects our presentation. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:38, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I can't speak in detail about something like BM, not having seen it, but again, I think you covered my viewpoint pretty well. I'm not saying we should flat out ignore any canon. But there ''is'' a difference between simply mentioning a given detail somehow, and treating that given detail as major enough in a certain continuity to affect our organization.<br />
::::I feel like cross-continuity things should almost always be the former rather than the latter unless we really have solid, official reason to treat a cross-continuity detail as being major for that other continuity. (As in, corroboration from fiction branded with that continuity or someone who regularly deals with that other continuity, not just a mere mention in whatever publication in a separate continuity.)<br />
::::Especially since, it just doesn't hurt us at all to play it safe this way. We're not ignoring the info. We're not presenting it as being not valid at all. We're just reasonably not taking a firm stance on something, especially a major difference, unless we have really solid reason to know it's the case. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Sure. I just discovered the debate over on [[Talk:Sideways#Talk:Sideways (ROTF)|Talk:Sideways]], and that actually provides a good example: I have no problem with ''Animated'' Sideways being on the UT Sideways page because ''Animated'' took the UT dimension-hopper thing and ran with it. However, I'd prefer that the live-action Sideways NOT be on the same page because the movieverse doesn't acknowledge the connection. Yes, let's absolutely document the retcon, but make it a link instead of a merger. That way, the information is still conveyed, but we let series-integrity define our presentation instead of the mythical idea of a consistent, unified multiverse. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:21, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::You are actually pretty badly misrepresenting the discussion there. We aren't saying that Movie Sideways isn't UT Sideways because the Movie universe says so, we're saying that they aren't the same because the evidence presented in the AAII doesn't prove that he is beyond a shadow of a doubt. All it says is that the was planning to go to Shanghai, but that Shanghai could be in the UT, RiD, Animated or Robot Masters universes just as easily as the Movie universe. We're not saying definitively that they are not the same guy, just that there is not enough evidence to prove he is. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 19:01, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::I'm not trying to represent your arguments at all. I'm defining my own answer on my own terms. For what it's worth, I see the phrase "the same guy" as an... overly-simplistic way of looking at the question. Different series provide different views of who's the "same" as who, and my suggestions are keyed to preserving those differences of perspective. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:21, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::So then why even bother brining the discussion up? You may as well have cited Weekend at Bernie's. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 19:23, 6 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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===Jackpot's Guide to the Multiverse===<br />
In the discussion above, I started piecing together a sensible approach to dealing with cross-continuity issues, but it's kind of scattered and buried up there, so I figured I'd spell out the principles I'm working with:<br />
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'''1) By default, articles should be separated from each other by continuity-family.'''<br />
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I don't expect much disagreement here, since it's how we actually do things 99% of the time. There are of course exceptions when the subject is sufficiently universal, like [[Cybertron (planet)]]. And at the moment, we also make exceptions for [[Multiversal singularity|singularities]] and dimension-hoppers. I only bring the principle up to say that when I advocate separating articles, this is the standard I'm falling back on.<br />
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'''2) Everything with a Hasbro trademark is canon, and we should document it.'''<br />
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Pretty sure we're all together on this one. The thorny issue is HOW to document it.<br />
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'''3) Each series should be presented as it presents itself.'''<br />
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Again, this is pretty much how we already do things. When we talk about Starscream [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|in the context of the G1 'toon]], he's a "ghost," but when it's [[Starscream (G1)#Beast Wars cartoon|in a BW context]], he's a "spark." Where we're starting to see problems is with singularities and dimension-hoppers. For example, the ''Animated Almanac'' strongly suggests that [[Sideways (RID)#Animated|its version of Sideways]] is the same individual as his [[Sideways (ROTF)|movieverse namesake]]. But within the movieverse, there's zero evidence of any connection. There's been [[Talk:Sideways (RID)#ROTF Sideways is not UT Sideways|debate]] over whether the ''Almanac'' claim is "proof" or just an "Easter egg," but let's assume for sake of argument that it's an ironclad declaration. In that case, one series's self-presentation contradicts another's. Our job is to present them both, each with the prominence that it merits, no matter how at-odds they may be. Which leads to the next point...<br />
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'''4) There is no single, consistent multiverse.'''<br />
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I think this is my most controversial notion. Almost every argument I've seen in favor of merging articles rests on the assumption that continuity is a two-way street: If one source makes a statement about another universe, then by gum that other universe needs to be roped in. But the reality is that TF fiction comprises a bunch of independent series written with little or no regard to each other, each with its own view of the multiverse (or lack thereof). For example, it was brought up in [[Talk:Thirteen original Transformers#Alpha Trion|this discussion]] that Pete Sinclair, when pressed about how [[Nexus Prime]] related to the [[Dynasty of Primes]], dismissed the live-action universe as [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=e9b629aca941d8a17156fb5d9a62cbba&showtopic=64273&st=20&p=1388259&#entry1388259 "outside the multiverse." ] This statement is of course not canon, but it illustrates the real-life situation, where Orci and Kurtzman didn't get the memo about what was going on in the fan-club comic while they were writing the movies. It's the reason why trying to conform our presentation to the mirage of a unified multiverse will always end in buttache and fire.<br />
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'''6) Merging articles for a retcon's sake gives priority to that retcon.'''<br />
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No matter how diligent we are about disclaimers throughout a merged article, the fact that readers are presented with all the guys on one page tells them that ''primarily'' they're the same character. I don't think this is merited if the connection isn't supported in all cases. Let's use a new example: [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]]. He's had many incarnations, always as an elderly sage, sometimes with mystical overtones, but with no specific uniqueness other than being super old. In fact, he even got an [[Alpha Trion (SG)|evil incarnation]] like lots of other ordinary characters. But now the [[Transformers: Prime|''Prime'' universe]] has a version that seems to be a singularity. If we merged them all because of this, then that would override the primary nature of the pre-''Prime'' A3s as individuals in their native contexts. This is what I've been referring to in the debate as "series integrity," per point #3. So instead...<br />
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'''7) Links can serve instead of mergers to document a multiversal connection.'''<br />
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This seems obvious to me, but since some people seem to think that multiversal claims necessitate mergers for some reason, I figured I'd say it. In the Alpha Trion example, my answer is to link all of the pre-''Prime'' A3s to the ''Prime'' one, and have the ''Prime'' one link out to all the rest (or just the disambig page). Then we could let the tone of each article to reflect the degree or absence of connection appropriate to its source material.<br />
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So let's bring this all together into a simple rule...<br />
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'''THEREFORE: If a cross-continuity claim goes both ways, then the pages should be merged. If it's one-sided, then they should be separate but linked.'''<br />
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For an example of "going both ways," we can look at Sideways again: When the ''Almanac'' used the character, his dimension-hopping had already been established. So saying that he stopped off in the ''Animated'' universe was barely a retcon at all; it just added a stamp to his passport. I think that calls for a merger with the "(RID)" article. But because the movieverse presents its Sideways as an independent character, he deserves his own page with his own intro, mainpic, toy section, etc., no matter how strongly the ''Animated'' universe may claim him. We should certainly LINK the two, but again, with the prominence it merits within each context. If we decided the ''Almanac'' wording was watertight, then we would make the link on the ''Animated'' page fairly in-your-face, something in the intro, bold, blink-tagged, with a trumpet MIDI. But the movieverse page should have a quieter link, maybe down in "Notes"/"Trivia".<br />
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Oh, and '''COROLLARY: If there's ever any uncertainty about whether a situation counts as "both ways," we should default to linked separation, per #1.'''<br />
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So that's where I'm coming from. I used the Sideways and A3 examples because they made handy illustrations, and I don't mean to represent all the nuances of their own debates. The point was to give practical examples of how my principles can be applied to ALL singularities and dimension-hoppers. The more Hasbro gets into the multiverse business, the more we're going to have to deal with this shit, and I think this is a solid guide that will help prevent future battles if we can agree to it. Of course I'm open to suggestions - I don't mean to say that This Is My Conviction or whatever - but nothing else I've seen so far makes as much sense to me. Agree/disagree? Discuss!<br />
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- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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====The Debate, part the first, wherein Semysane complains about length and Jeysie complains about Semysane====<br />
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:I'm sorry, that was a bit TL;DR. Is this a blog now? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:11, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::<nowiki>*</nowiki>eyeroll* I hate "Too long, too lazy ass to read" butthurt. Look, are you over the age of 10? If so, it's not going to kill you to be expected to use your brain and read more than a few sentences, especially when someone's rightfully trying to explain their reasoning behind what would be a major change in how we do things. Suck it up. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I'm sorry I don't have the time to read all day about fucking toys. If you would like to pay for my food, rent, clothes and internet FOR me, then I'd be more than willing to read a novella on retcons. Until then, stop insulting me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Guess what? If you don't have the time to read and pay attention to a conversation, then here's a thought: don't participate in it. Wow, what a crazy thought. There's the door over there.<br />
::::As for the insulting, pot, kettle, black. You insulted the post, I insulted your lazy whining. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:48, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::What's your damn problem? Who died and made you the lord and master here? "There's the door?" Why the hell does this have to turn into ad-hominem assaults? All I said was that the post was long. I honestly don't see why you would flip your shit over that. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:58, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::You came in here and insulted the post by wondering when the wiki turned into a blog, instead of actually contributing something useful, so please stop acting like you have the high ground.<br />
::::::For two, like I said, if you don't have time to participate, then instead of wasting your time and ours making a pointless whiny insulting complaint about OMG someone daring to expect you to read more than a few sentences, why not just... not post? I mean, dur. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:08, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::Oh, I'm ''sorry!'' I didn't realize that I should have given time to some blowhard telling us how we should completely throw out how we've done things from day one '''BECAUSE HE SAID SO'''! My sincerest apologies! -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 02:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::Hey, here's a thought. Both of you knock it off or there's some timeouts coming. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:29, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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<br />
====The Debate, part the second, wherein Sorenson and Jeysie lay out the basic thrust of the pros and cons of the proposal and others weigh in====<br />
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::I kind of like it. It helps as a sort of guide on the whole MC-classifying thing. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:22, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, me too, it makes an incredible amount of sense. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:39, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::I like the logic; it's clear and concise. However, I don't agree with it. If you take this idea to its logical conclusion, it means that we basically, more or less, ignore all retcons. Or, at the very least, it means that we need duplicative pages. For instance, The Nemesis wasn't named in the G1 cartoon. Its name came from Beast Wars. To really follow your thought process, merging the Nemesis, the ship named in Beast Wars, with the unnamed Decepticon cruiser introduced in a different series, would be 'giving priority to that retcon.' I think it's far more interesting, useful and informative to have those concepts as the same article, rather than splitting them. I'll also point out that the Ark was never named in the Sunbow cartoon, so we'd have to split that from the Marvel Comics. There are undoubtedly a ton of other examples like this. <br />
::::(It's possible that you meant for your point four to apply exclusively to cross continuity-family mergers and retcons. You don't say this, but even if you meant it, in my mind that's a false distinction. Cross series is cross series, be it G1 to G1, G1 to RID, Animated to Movie or whatever.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::I think it's far more interesting, useful, and informative to be ''accurate''. IMHO we should be making our arguments based on what presents the information in the most accurate and least fan speculation/assuming way, not based on how tidy or convenient it is or isn't. IMHO we should bend to fit the information, not bend the information to fit us. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::That's a complete strawman argument. It's not ''inaccurate'' to retroactively apply the name The Ark to the ship from the Sunbow cartoon. It's a choice of two different organizational schemas, both of which have pros and cons. When dealing with organizational issues, tidy and convenient ''are'' valid goals.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::It's potentially inaccurate whenever it forces us to make a completely fanon decision that one bit of information is "more canon" than another bit, instead of treating all info as equally canon. See Jackpot's point #6. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:25, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::It's ''actually'' inaccurate to refuse to user our judgment to merge two effectively identical concepts, such as The Ark (Marvel comics) and Unnamed Autobot ship (Sunbow), just because one was named and one wasn't. It's a completely "fanon" decision to decide that they're two different ideas, just as it's a completely "fanon" decision to decide that they're the same idea. Being unwilling to commit to a position is itself a position, and not a very useful, informative, or interesting one. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:52, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Being unwilling to commit to a position when there is no solid information to go on is the honest and accurate position. It's our job to catalog canon, period, not our fanon theories. (Basically, it's less fanon to assume they're different than it is to assume they're the same without solid canon proof.)<br />
:::::::::It's useful and informative to present canon as-is. People come here to learn what canon says, not to read our fanon theories on things. (As for interesting, I think it's more interesting to read about TF fiction and what the creators intended, personally, rather than read people's fanon theories.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:00, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::I'm not sure you know what fanon means, based on your usage of it here. No one here is seriously advocating just making things up and hurling them around willy-nilly. But when you have two positions, both of which have evidence, choosing one over the other is not fanon. Fanon is saying "Dion is Ultra Magnus" and then linking those pages. Interpreting canon is saying "Oh, there is an Decepticon spaceship in Beast Wars named The Nemesis, and an EXTREMELY similar ship in the Sunbow cartoon with the same backstory... let's treat them as the same thing." Interpreting canon != fanon. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::Bluntly, there's also a point where it's "come the fuck on" and not making the link is either pussyfooting or bullheadedness, and both lead to a disorganized, unfriendly mess of a wiki with a million scattered pages for the same concepts. Plus it's rather insulting to one's intelligence after a point. I don't have "solid" proof the sun will rise tomorrow, but you know, if I were to place a bet... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::I agree with a some of it but if it's not a "consistent Multiverse" then what is the point of having one? That would essentially make the Thirteen and so on less then Multiversal even though they have been stated canonically to exist in such a manner. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 04:02, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Yeah, the logic is good in a lot of ways, I don't deny that, but Jim and MrBlud raise very good objections as well. As Blud said, it's not really the "multiverse" if it doesn't contain everything. That's what the multiverse IS. Thats entirely what it means, and downplaying that this much feels like our chooseing to really diminis the whole concept. Even more worying, Like Jim says, it IS just as subjective to group things together as to seperate them. It's just a difference of interpretation. If you set the bar so high for seperating everything though it's a very destructive rule. In our continuity article we talk about how assuming anything is in continuity with anything else even within a singular series IS really just an assumpion. The approach to continuity we have been using is a constructive one (Continuities and future material can build on one another. Alla G1 and BW). To switch to an entirely devisive model opens both issues of revamping lots of pages but also destroying many comon sense connections such as those Jim mentions in an overzelous OCD nead to keep everything from touching. It's not unworkable but as an idea it has very worring potential and at least as much room for abuse and stupidity as our current constructive format.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:29, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::Agreed, the basic premise is valid but there are problems with applying without reservation. Jim, in particular, raises the quite valid point that if we truly follow this, then we really need to split off a couple thousand pages. The thing to remember is at some point you're doing more harm than good by keeping things separate. Have your examples reached that point, I don't know. But I want to leave the possibility open to combine them if evidence keeps piling up in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Links can be used instead of mergers / same-naming for ''highly contested cases'', like the recent Sideways flap. But as Jim noted, arguing that the Sunbow ship ISN'T the Ark just seems like an exercise in deliberate obtuseness that inhibits the clarity and usefulness of this wiki. There is a TON of canon evidence that it's the Ark, from the Ultimate Guide to Beast Wars to the Titanium toy. In an instance where a retcon does not actually OPPOSE pre-existing information in the retconned storyline--because there was none--I cannot think of any valid reason to exclude it. I can see debating an oppositional retcon, like Primus vs. Unicron; however, that particular one has been well established foundationally for so many years that, again, trying to split it out now would only get in the way of conveying any facts at all. As long as we sufficiently annotate all such material instead of trying to seamlessly pass it off as perfect revealed in-universe truth, I see no problem with it. I '''HATE''' the concept of the Vok being the Swarm, it adds nothing to the series except some pretty agonizing internal contradictions that were totally, totally unnecessary. But there it is. So--we mention it, we discuss and/or annotate the potential problems, and that's that. As long as readers can be made fully aware of any controversy that has actual ''impact'' on the storylines, we are in the clear and our approach "works". --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:43, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::Jackpot's guide is how I view the multiverse, I also don't think it is a two-way street. I think the Nemesis situation is different. The ship played the same general role in the comic and cartoon, so it is appropriate to be on the same page—just like cartoon Megatron and comic Megatron. Beast Wars doesn't say the ship crossed from the cartoon to the comic or anything. But we could make it more clear. On the ''Nemesis'' page there should be clear notes, preferably at the top of both the cartoon and Marvel comics sections, stating that the ship had no name in those continuities and was named later. There currently isn't such a note. I would also prefer the name ''Nemesis'' wasn't used in the cartoon and Marvel comics fiction sections, but that isn't a big deal. Well done Jackpot. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:53, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I have a minor quibble with #2. [[Bendy-Bus Prime]] is a Transformer, but I believe he is all Paramount and no Hasbro. Is he canon? Maybe he isn't, I don't know. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:53, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
====The Debate, part the third, wherein Sorenson suggests sandboxing, Sipher laments repetitive arguments, and Jeysie bemoans what may occur in the future should the proposal not be accepted====<br />
<br />
OK, it looks like, after a bit of back and forth, most of the users see the inherent problems with the proposal. As I implied, it actually has a certain intellectual appeal, I just think that in ''application'' it would do us more harm than good. I think the current system is clear maybe 99% of the time, and occasionally leads to arguments on corner cases. My instinct is that the proposed change would be clear maybe 80% to 90% of the time. <br />
<br />
My suggestion is to take a very small multiuniversal franchise and then sandbox it up. Robot Masters has only 49 pages, including 34 characters, a few pieces of fiction and some other notions introduced. If you (any of the proponents) are really seriously considering having us rework several thousand pages and having probably a lot more arguments, I think that sandboxing out 49 pages first to see how they'd work isn't unreasonable.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:02, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:"''As I implied, it actually has a certain intellectual appeal, I just think that in ''application'' it would do us more harm than good. I think the current system is clear maybe 99% of the time, and occasionally leads to arguments on corner cases. My instinct is that the proposed change would be clear maybe 80% to 90% of the time.''"<br><br />
::Personally, I think your "99%" estimate is off. It's more like 99.999999999%. So basically, just like '''every other time ever''' someone has proposed a massive organizational change to the wiki in order to try and account for a single instance of something the current system can't handle (something every system possible will have), we're looking at more harm and work for a "payoff" that isn't remotely worth the effort, one that will obfuscate information and make the wiki on an already-complex and expansive subject even less readable. I'm deja-vu'ing here bigtime. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:26, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Seems to me like we're actually pretty evenly split on people who think it's a good idea, people who don't, and people who see the logic but also see some issues to iron out, but OK. But I agree that sandboxing is probably a good idea.<br />
:As for Sipher's point, the problem is, as the thing with SG Alpha Trion shows, Hasbro doesn't care about cohesion the way we do, and it might well start becoming more and more of a problem in the future considering the directions Hasbro's been taking.<br />
:The simple fact is that, in real-world terms, there ''isn't'' a consistent universe. There's HOW many storylines going on at the same time at the moment, on varying schedules and with varying teams on how many different parts of the planet? Considering companies like IDW can barely even keep their *own* writers matching up with each other... even if Hasbro really did want to make sure everything 100% matched up with everything else, I'm not sure they actually could pull it off with the current setup.<br />
:Plus, on top of that, Hasbro obviously just throws things together because they like how it looks together, not because it actually works at all with previous canon. And as Hasbro starts doing more of this cross-continuity stuff, the problem's just going to get worse and worse.<br />
:The more we try to stick to our conceit while Hasbro's busy tying things in knots, the more ridiculous our gymnastics to keep it all straight are going to get. I've already wanted to cringe at some of the gymnastics I've seen on Trion alone. (Like the notion that somehow Lee knew when creating a character three years ago from a toy with a vague bio, that Animated would get cancelled and we'd have an entirely new show that needed a new origin story novel. Or something.) And the discussion on Sentinel Major and Sideways shows how much a clusterfuck it can get when we're busy trying to combine things based on whose fan speculation makes more sense than whose, rather than going by solely the actual canon and authors.<br />
:I think we tend to give Hasbro much more credit in planning all this stuff out than they've ever shown, well, ever. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:51, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::"''the problem is, as the thing with SG Alpha Trion shows, Hasbro doesn't care about cohesion the way we do,''"<br><br />
::I'm just going to say that I know for a fact this is patently untrue, and the whole story is not yet told. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:03, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yeah, I don't know what Sipher knows, or anything, but I find it ''very'' hard to believe that the internal Hasbro dude who has basically been responsible for the whole singularity/thirteen thing, being the same guy who wrote the bios that indicated Alpha Trion was one of the thirteen before Exodus confirmed it, wrote a story about Trion being evil ''without'' having some greater plan or rationale in mind. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:07, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Exactly. The reason MS Alpha Trion seems so messed up right now is because we know zilch about the details of the concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we're going on is one slide at BotCon with his name on a list of confirmed Thirteen. ''Clearly'', there's going to be more to it than that...we just haven't been told yet. There's a difference between "Hasbro doesn't care" and "Hasbro's teaser preview doesn't explain the entire concept to our satisfiction." --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 16:33, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::It wasn't just a slide, it was repeatedly throughout ''Exodus''. --Thy<br />
::::::If cleaning up Alpha Trion involves retcons that supersede previous continuities, then that is just the sort of thing the wiki shouldn't take a stance on. Is the original continuity true as presented, or is the new retcon true? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:45, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Our stance has always been "What Hasbro says goes. If they retcon something than that's their right as its their story, they determine official continuity, and the retcon is now whats true." Changing that would mean changing perhasp hundreds or thousands of articles at this point I'd guess, but that's what this discussion is all about. As long as we tell people that the retcon is a retcon and tell them all the facts of the original story and the new, then we're doing our job. Anyway, back on the point at hand, Exodus had a lot of other priorities. The Thirteen revelations in there were basically treated as background stuff and were far from the focus, teasers really for Hasbro's new plan for the characters announced at Botcon. The point stands that you can't call it proof of Hasbro not caring when they've barely gotten the first sentence of their story out of their mouth yet. Be patient and Lee will almost certainly deal with it as he set it all up. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 16:56, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I admit that I read the novel immediately ''before'' BotCon (like, I bought it on the drive to Florida and read it at breaks and while waiting for car repairs), so there's a chance that I didn't have time to properly retain everything about it before more new info pushed it out of my brain... but Zac is right. The 13 were barely backstory, and the multiverse was not even touched. We're only a month into what may be Hasbro's biggest venture into entertainment ever (on their part, at least), and we've only been given tiny teasers to the main part of it!<br><br />
::::::::(Also... it isn't just Lee working this stuff out. Remember the show crew, and Aaron...) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:34, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::"Changing that would mean changing perhasp hundreds or thousands of articles at this point I'd guess, but that's what this discussion is all about."<br />
:::::::::Possibly. But the problem is, the more Hasbro throws stuff together because it seems cool and then just does after the fact cobbled-together retcons, the more we're going to have to change our pages. We've already had to merge a number of pages, and we already have arguments on the talk pages about how it utterly blatantly goes against what was explicitly shown in the official direct canon fiction, thus creating new errors by merging things never meant to be merged or changed.<br />
:::::::::This new proposal is so that the wiki doesn't become even more entangled and insane in the future, messing up the info in old series with things never meant to be in them and things never meant to be connected ''by the direct official fiction in that continuity''.<br />
:::::::::Plus, as was pointed out up above, Hasbro's stance is that all Optimus Primes are the same, all Megatrons are the same, etc. So we already go against Hasbro's stance for the sake of presenting the fiction as-is. If we really were going by how Hasbro did/sees things, our pages would all be set up exactly like Wikipedia's.<br />
:::::::::Which is my whole worry, really. I ''like'' our current setup. I ''like'' the fact that we separate things out. To me, #3 and #6 are vitally important here. A bit of writing is written as having certain details, certain backstories, etc. in mind. If you later add things in, you change the story.<br />
:::::::::And, I mean, it's bad enough that even the people directly writing in a given continuity often change things around even when it makes no sense, or forget that previous things happened, without us deciding that people in completely separate writing teams writing completely different storylines can somehow keep track of everyone else's work on top of their own.<br />
:::::::::And Hasbro sure doesn't seem to be keeping track. IDW's main continuity is a mess. Hasbro went to all the trouble of trying to keep Mowry's comics canon... and then the Movie writers went and contradicted it anyway. I've seen plenty of arguments how WFC and Exodus contradict each other, yet are supposed to go together. Hasbro came out at BotCon and had to admit they goofed on the Sentinel/Zeta Prime thing. Pete had to basically declare the Movieverse outside of the multiverse to acknowledge that the Movie people don't know/care what the Fanclub was doing. Etc. Etc.<br />
:::::::::This "plan" you guys seem to think exist? Either doesn't exist, or is utterly contradictory with itself, or is being incredibly poorly maintained. I see no reason so far whatsoever to think that Hasbro's left-hand writing team knows what the right-hand is doing.<br />
:::::::::Which I could live with, if we didn't keep trying to merge things never meant to be merged, change things never meant to be changed, etc. due to info given by people who aren't even directly involved with/in what they're changing, on an assumption of coordination between the fiction that has not been shown to exist.<br />
:::::::::To me, what's canon for a storyline is what is being officially marketed to me as taking place in that storyline, and occasionally the word from the people directly writing that storyline. Because nothing else makes sense to me. Just because you write officially for one storyline doesn't mean you know a thing about other storylines being written by other writing teams. And the fact that there are so many existing, undeniable contradictions between the various writing teams and storylines sure suggests to me that it's not being coordinated by Hasbro either. Not on the level some people seem to be thinking/wishing for. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:28, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Addendum: Plus, the more tangled this gets, the harder it's going to be for ''me'' to edit the wiki at least. If I can't even trust the directly-related show/comic/prose story in front of me to be true about its own storyline, thanks to some publication in some other completely unrelated fiction I otherwise would have no interest in reading... well, I sure can't edit the wiki any more. Because now I have no way to ensure I'm not wasting time scribing info that's apparently not even accurate even though it's right blatantly there in front of me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:39, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::You're missing the point, either intentionally or because you have blinders on. IT DOESN'T MATTER if Hasbro has any kind of grand plan. It doesn't matter if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Authorial Intent counts for nothing when dealing with a collaborative property like this. There have probably been literally thousands of creative people who have touched the brand in some official capacity; what was going through their minds when they made their contributions is irrelevant. What made it on to the page, or the screen, or the toy, THAT'S what matters. <br />
::::::::::Does it logically follow from this idea that new material will influence / modify / change / mess-up older stuff? Yes, of course it does. When Bob Budiansky looked at a toy gun and said to himself that Megatron would be a good name for this toy, and that it could lead the bad guys, he didn't have any notion of him as a gladiator. Furman added that later. He didn't conceive of Starscream as having an immortal spark, (or, indeed, any of them as having sparks) but then Megeen McLaughlin and Ian Weir added that aspect to the character. He didn't think that Optimus Prime carried within him a creation matrix, but later he added that idea in himself. Flint Dille didn't make up Unicron as a dark god, but neither did he make him up as built by Primacron. Those ideas were added later, by Furman and Glut. Marty Isenberg didn't originally think of Bulkhead as a space bridge genius; this idea grew out of Michael Ryan's Autoboot Camp, and was solidified by Marsha Griffin in A Bridge Too Close, Part I. Cybertron modified Armada. Robot Masters added to many existing franchises. Universe pulled from all over the Multiverse. So does Timelines. So does my work. It's been happening for a long, long time, and it's one of the aspects of the franchise that I find appealing.<br />
:::::::::::A few specific rebuttals: "The problem is, the more Hasbro throws stuff together because it seems cool and then just does after the fact cobbled-together retcons, the more we're going to have to change our pages." It's foolish to definitely introduce a ton of changes to our pages now to maybe possibly avoid changing pages in the future. <br />
:::::::::::"Creating new errors by merging things never meant to be merged or changed." Meant by who? The original writers? Again, who cares, doesn't matter. This isn't Babylon 5, where there's one driving vision. This is a collaborative experiment involving at a bare minimum hundreds of people. One guy didn't intend something, another guy does, things change, it happens.<br />
:::::::::::""The more tangled this gets, the harder it's going to be for ''me'' to edit the wiki at least." Transformers is a living, evolving tapestry. If you're worried that the story that you're currently reading doesn't reflect the entire, complete, 100% truth, then maybe you should find some other franchise that's a little less dynamic. Asimov's Foundation series is pretty good. (Oh, wait, no, he wrote in new prequels and changed around the backstory, then the rights holders commissioned new books in the universe.) Basically, everyone else seems to manage to contribute without running into this non-issue, this mole hill that you're attempting to mountainify. <br />
::::::::::Besides... why are you wasting your time arguing? There were, what, three or four people that seemed to think this proposal had some merit, maybe seven who thought it caused more harm than good. The idea was put forth that, if you're really interested, put your money (or at least time) where your mouth is. Sandbox out Robot Masters, see if it's better or worse than our current Robot Masters offerings. About 50 pages. I'd be willing to look at your work and see if maybe, despite my strong intuition, you'll come up with something cleaner and better than what we have now. However, don't expect everyone to start reordering things because you don't like the idea that a Beast Wars cartoon can modify a Sunbow one when that's the model we've been operating under for years.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::When Asimov wrote new sequels, he wrote it in his own storyline. When the new people wrote sequels, they again wrote it in the same storyline.<br />
:::::::::::That's different from feeling like I'm only interested in the cartoon, yet I have to counter-intuitively pick up an Animated book just to make sure I didn't miss something true about the cartoon. Or I have to watch the Movies to know something about IDW's storyline. Or I have to sub to the Fanclub to know about the Movies. These are all completely ''separate'' storylines, yet we treat them as somehow meaning anything to each other. Why? I dunno, it's never made any sense to me and I've never liked our tendency to do it, especially when it's been shown time and time again that the people actually writing the fiction do not consider other storylines as meaning anything to their own.<br />
:::::::::::"This isn't Babylon 5, where there's one driving vision."<br />
:::::::::::So why are we acting like there is?<br />
:::::::::::"This is a collaborative experiment involving at a bare minimum hundreds of people."<br />
:::::::::::Except that it's not. It's completely separate teams of people writing completely separate storylines that have never shown any signs of being coordinated with each other, yet we're acting like they are. And now it's starting to happen more often.<br />
:::::::::::As for the rest, I think I'll let Jackpot take over down there, as he's already said much of what I would have said. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:52, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::Right, they're not coordinated, but they ARE connected through the multiverse. And does you ignoring my 'go sandbox it' mean that your not going to go do so? Because if so, I think you've just lost by forfeit. Basically, I'm saying "put up or shut up." --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::So wait, let me get this straight. You ''agree'' that in real life the coordination between storylines does not exist, that the writers do not know or care about each other's storylines, that what other people are doing sometimes even contradicts what the writers in a different storyline are actually going to do, yet we're supposed to connect them together anyway based on a fictional conceit that the writers have been shown to not always care about?<br />
:::::::::::::And you don't see the problem with this? Really?<br />
:::::::::::::And I haven't ignored it, just pointed out that Jackpot already addressed it, and since it's his proposal, I see no point in not letting him choose how to handle it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:30, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Correct. I agree that the real life coordination is almost non-existent. I further point out that it's ALWAYS been that way, even within single series. It's that very lack of coordination that enables so many retcons without this being problematic. Transformers evolves. They, ahem, transform. My vision and introduction to the universe may later be modified by a future writer. This is not a problem, it's a good thing. More than Meets the Eye introduces an unnamed Decepticon ship, and later Beast Wars names it. The universe just got richer. I don't care if that doesn't match up with George Arthur Bloom's vision.<br />
::::::::::::::And regarding sandboxing, Jackpot didn't address it at all, but that's ok, it was directed at you. You're spewing out a LOT more verbiage than him. If you're not ready to actually go show us how to do it, then I don't see why anyone should listen to you.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:32, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::Yes it is a problem. In that most of the things we treat as retcons weren't meant to be retcons to begin with. They're things we treat as retcons due to a cross-continuity policy we adhere to that Hasbro's writers do not. We introduce errors and inconsistencies that do not exist in the original work, errors and inconsistencies that only exist because we're putting things in the original work never meant to be there.<br />
:::::::::::::::In fact, some of the creators even find it offensive. Derrick flat out hates the multiverse idea. Pete told me he thinks something written 25 years after the fact shouldn't trump the original script for something. So not only are we being stupid and adhering to something that flat out has been shown to not exist/apply, we're in some cases being disrespectful. Which apparently you don't care about considering...<br />
:::::::::::::::"I don't care if that doesn't match up with George Arthur Bloom's vision."<br />
:::::::::::::::Wow, what an utterly jerkass opinion. Well, here's one of my own. You know what? I don't give a shit about your fanon opinion on continuities you weren't hired to write for. You wanna change around Movie continuity? Go get IDW or Paramount to let you write for it. You wanna mess in FunPub continuity? Go get hired by Pete. Etc. They're the ones who've been hired to write those storylines. You? You were hired to write a book about Animated. And I'll accept whatever you write about Animated specifically. But when it comes to other continuities, being an official writer in one continuity doesn't make you any less of a clueless fan on the others than the rest of us. And thus I care about your fanon theories as much as I care about any other fans' (i.e. very little at all). Your constant "I'm Armed With the Ability to Make Canon" attitude, and dismissive attitude towards your fellow pros' work just makes you come off as a petty jackass every time you open your mouth in one of these debates.<br />
:::::::::::::::So yeah, you know, I'm done with you. You obviously have such an inflated sense of your own ego, an utter lack of respect for your fellow writers, and an equally utter lack of grip on reality that there's little point in giving any worth to what you have to say. Typical arrogant asshole TF fan, made worse by you being one of the pro writers who ought to know better.<br />
:::::::::::::::As for the sandboxing: "(Also, the Robot Masters thing, being basically a cameo-fest, falls under the same category. Plus isn't it in the G1 continuity-family anyway, so principle #1 would make it a moot point for everyone but Sideways?)" So you can't read either. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:41, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! WOW. Just... wow.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
::::::::::::::::(ps: Wow.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 02:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Now, when I say this, bear in mind that Derrick Wyatt is a friend of mine, someone I keep in touch with well beyond a TF context.<br><br />
''It doesn't fucking matter what he does or does not like about what is canon.''<br><br />
He doesn't like Ratbat having the power to speak or leading the Decepticons. Doesn't matter, both these happen. He ''hates'' Beachcomber. He happens. Derrick is a great guy and an amazing creative force, but ''once again'', he is only a part of the ''Animated'' creative crew, predominantly the ''visual'' part of it, and ''is not currently working on TFs at all.'' He wasn't the story guy. He could influence with character choices and his knowledge of the past series, but he answered to many others when it came to the story (and even the character designs!). ''He is not some be-all-end-all God Of What Is TF so stop invoking his personal opinions that didn't even affect the series he worked on.'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:27, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::losing count:Jeysie sez: ''some of the creators even find it offensive. Derrick flat out hates the multiverse idea. Pete told me he thinks something written 25 years after the fact shouldn't trump the original script for something''. Okay, and what happens when OTHER CREATORS DISAGREE WITH THAT? Pete and Forrest worked on the same storylines in the same continuity and they completely disagree on this. Ben Yee and Simon Furman had worked with Bob and Larry, yet there we have the Sourcebook and all of its contradictions and quirks. Simon Furman totally erased Budiansky's "natural gears and pulleys" business. Author-intentism is not automatic--very often it requires picking and choosing which author's intent to validate. That's one of the reasons I despise it so much.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:36, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Pete is the editor of FunPub's fiction, so his view takes precedence for that fiction, much as Schmidt's view takes precedence over the IDW writers'.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::And, Yee and Furman wrote fiction directly branded as being in Beast Wars (yes?), and Furman wrote fiction directly attached to Budiansky's storyline. So those changes made sense because they were made by someone directly writing in the same storyline. If other creators writing for the same storyline disagree, then that's the nature of a storyline being written by multiple authors ''in the same storyline''.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::It's the idea of creators in a different storyline disagreeing with writers in a separate storyline that's my sticking point. Because, why should we care? Why should we care what someone writing for a Movie storyline thinks about IDW's storyline? Why should we care what a FunPub writer for one storyline says about Animated's storyline? Why do we assume that someone hired to write fiction for one storyline knows or cares anything about an entirely separate writing team's storyline? Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline?<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this that doesn't boil down to either making even more assumptions about Hasbro's editorial than I am, or ignoring the reality of the situation (that in fact the writing teams have been shown to not know or care about each other).<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::So it's getting frustrating basically seeing people who can't accept that the reality doesn't match up with our fictional conceit, or getting made fun of for a POV that actually makes sense to anyone who understands how literature works from a structural standpoint (i.e. what to assume as true and not true while reading a story).<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::And the "Well, Hasbro has final say, not the authors". To which I say, "Duh." Except that the reality of it is, Hasbro is obviously NOT dictating these cross-continuity changes, or there'd be no contradictions to quibble about!<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::If Hasbro actually wanted the Movie writers to care about FunPub fiction, then the Movie fiction would have matched up, and Pete wouldn't have had to declare what was obvious to anyone who wasn't stuck in fantasy-mode: that the Movie writers don't care and weren't told to care about the Fanclub fiction. And if the Fanclub had to care about what an Animated book said, then Pete wouldn't be coming out and saying he doesn't. And if Primus and Unicron had to exist in every storyline, then Furman and the folks at Animated wouldn't be coming out and saying they're not including the ideas in their stories. Etc. Etc.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::So, this whole "Well, Hasbro has dictated all this cross-continuity stuff is mandated, even though everything from the direct fiction to creators talking about what they're going to do with their storylines contadicts it, so apparently Hasbro forgot to tell the writers about their mandate, whoops" mentality makes about as much logical sense as assuming that just because something's official it applies to all storylines: None at all.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Of course, I love how Sorenson agrees that the writing teams don't have anything to do with each other, but insists on us continuing to pretend there's a consistency that doesn't actually exist. Whereas I feel like we should be bending ourselves to put down info as-is based on the apparently reality of the situation, rather than the other way around.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::Basically, the problem is that we assume that TF is one giant whole, when the reality, based on how the various creators (and the fiction itself at times) act towards the cross-continuity stuff, is that the franchise is a number of totally separate storylines whose only commonality is that they're all marketed as being under the Transformers umbrella.<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::But, you know. Apparently I'm stupid and insult-worthy for trying to actually pay attention to what the reality of how the fiction is branded and what the people actually creating the fiction tell us about their craft, and base my opinion of the matter on that rather than on what I wish the TF fiction would be. So be it, I guess. Sorry to have wasted your time trying to contribute. Apparently anyone who disagrees with the prevailing opinion isn't welcome. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::''"Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline? Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this..."'' The answer is, that when an author invokes the [[Multiverse]], they actually are writing fiction for those other storylines. In other words, if you want to put it this way, the Multiverse really is a backdoor which allows a writer in one continuity to hijack an otherwise unrelated continuity. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:16, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::''"Why do we assume that just because a bit of fiction is approved to be branded and marketed as being part of one storyline, it has any relevance at all to any other storyline? Nobody's been able to give me a good answer to this..."'' Because we are giving greater weight to the content Hasbro chooses to publish rather than to the label they chose to brand it with. One is actual information...the other is, in the minds of the majority, simply a letterhead. Most of us simply don't agree with your assertion that the franchise is a strict, unsurpassable boundary for Hasbro's contributors. Hasbro may make policy decisions and edicts based on their brands, but what they SAY will take second place to what they DO. Hasbro CHOSE to publish fiction under one brand that referenced others -- as owner, proprietor, and liege maximo of all those brands, they have the right to do that.<br />
::::::::::::::::::::::Scientists in the 19th century could not explain how bumblebees could fly. The math didn't add up -- weight distribution, mass indexes, aeronautic variables...all seemed to show that the simple wings of a bumblebee could not support them in the air. But as good as the math was, none of these scientists argued that, therefore, bumblebees DON'T fly, because anyone can see that they do. But that's your position here, Jeysie. No matter how many arguments you make to the contrary (and the majority of them ''have'' been reasonable, Jeysie), what Hasbro SHOULD reasonably do, what can be intelligently extrapolated that they WOULD do, will always take a backseat to what they DID. If Hasbro went on the record and denounced Sorenson, "We didn't think to read the Cybertronix. We did not authorize him to publish material unrelated to the Malgus cluster. All of that stuff is unapproved by Hasbro, which is us.", then we would likely remove all the Primax, Tyran, Viron, etc related information provided from the Almanac. But without a statement from Hasbro denouncing THIS incident and THIS publication as faulty, we simply have to assume they knew what they were doing when they allowed it to be published. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:09, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::I have kept away from this debate for many, many reasons, but I am stupid and I'm going to say something now. ''Transformers'' isn't about respect for the creativity of individual writers - it's about Hasbro trying to get their toys sold. Hasbro owns the brand, Habro decides what happens to it. If writers experience this lack of control about their storylines a threat to their creative product, then they shouldn't have gotten involved with the brand in the first place. Mind, I absolutely hate the multiverse ever since it went from occassional fun interaction between different franchises to a royal mess with some pretty fucked up character derailment. And I absolutely hate the WOH storyline, and with that all the things it does to the G1 cartoon, which perhaps don't immediately affect the cartoon but are likely going to inspire further canon which makes it moot to declare it of no affect on the cartoon (although as long as I can, I'm going to hold on Greenlight changed her name to Dusttrail, because seriously, "Greenlight" can't be something that wasn't come up with in less than 0.6 seconds). But, I concur the "big" story and its limited coherence is Hasbro's choice, and that simply goes over whatever any of the writers want with their input. Because the writers, no matter how cutely enthusiast they may be about what they do, in the end have given Hasbro promotional material while Hasbro has given them a paycheck. Hasbro's employer, writers are employees, Hasbro decides, writers can either take it or leave and do fanprojects if they want to be involved with the brand that badly. It has nothing to do with respect. This is a company trying to be a company, and if they afterwards choose to adjust their promotional material to fit their current market strategies, so be it. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:31, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::::::::::Considering that Pete went out of his way to state that WoH was a completely separate timeline from the cartoon, I'd say that the official creators understand better than we do about how to play with existing continuities in ways that don't actually affect those continuities.<br />
:::::::::::::::::As for the rest, see my post above. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::::Not sure where this should go, but it really is in response to Jeysie's points about "respect for authors". In some sense it really doesn't matter if an author likes, understands or even knows about the multiverse. If Hasbro decides that certain things in different stories, in different universes, written by different authors at different times are the same; then those authors feelings are irrelevant. Every story is written for Hasbro, the writers are playing in Hasbro's sandbox with Hasbro's toys (pun unintentional). This is a corporate brand, not a creator owned one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::See my post above. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:47, 13 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Agree 100% --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 21:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::How often is that true of a retcon though? Most (if not all) of the Transformers ones *add* to the story not detract from it. Even the whole Sideways brouhaha was giving Sideways a larger article. ROTF Sideway's depiction was still true and still happened even if it was "other" Sideways playing the role. In addition, outside of universe jumping or multiversal singularities (both of which are reasonably rare) there's hardly any overlap anyway. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 21:10, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Excellent point here. As Sipher points out, we're talking about, what, a dozen articles out of 11,000? Maybe a tenth of a percent. The proposal will introduce far more problems than that.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:35, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::And again 100% agree. Does that make 200%? Can I do that? ;) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 21:41, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::See my point above and Jackpot's point below about how not changing our policy may well eventually cause MORE problems. And in fact there's quite a few retcons that have caused contradictory information and errors. Including many of the new ones. The cartoon Prime retcons cause contradictions. Trion's retcon causes contradictions. Part of Sentinel Major's and Sideways' retcons eventually got overruled by our consensus because they just didn't make sense (and in one case the author actually writing the contested story in question pointed out it was wrong). Etc. Etc. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::See MY point above where I point out that DEFINTELY introducing more work and NOW to POSSIBLY avoid more work and arguments in the future take your point and refute it completely and utterly. Also, if you're saying that Sideways and Sentinel Major were wrong, then congratulations, you've just scored a point for my side. In other words, the system works.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:13, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::Er, what? No, I scored a point for our side. The system dictated that we should merge them, and we didn't because people realized that no, that would actually be dumb and go against what the authors actually intended. It was a step ''towards'' what Jackpot is proposing and ''away'' from our current system that assumes one continuity "knows" anything at all about a different one.<br />
::::::::::::::Your point does not actually refute my point remotely at all, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:30, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! If the current system suggested that they should be merged, then THEY WOULD BE MERGED RIGHT NOW. Because, you know, WE'RE OPERATING UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM. Instead, the current system resulted in a solution that you yourself thinks is 'correct,' albeit after a few days of debate. Ergo, the system works. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:32, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::There's an old saying "Never trouble trouble until trouble troubles you." or even more simply "Don't borrow trouble." There's no reason to cause huge upheavel and a bot-load of work now to avoid something that only "could ''maybe'' be an issue" sometime in the future.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 22:22, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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====The Debate, part the fourth, wherein Jackpot attempts to synthesize the feedback from above====<br />
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:Rather than dig into the specific responses above, I'm going to respond more generally here: Thank you for the feedback, and I want to clarify that I'm NOT against all retcons, and I don't think the ideas I presented would suggest so. For example, the Autobot ship from the G1 'toon should clearly go on [[Ark (G1)]]; I would never say otherwise. I personally would avoid using the name "Ark" in the 'toon writeup, but that's as far as I would take it. It's the same concept in the same continuity family; the name is incidental. My point #1 up there ends that question.<br />
:Where I ''will'' admit that my "rule" as presented would cause problems is with harmless cameos, like ''Armada'' Megatron showing up on one page of the ''Universe'' comic. That does no violence to his UT identity or continuity, and making a separate "Megatron (Universe)" page would be pointless. I think the truly massive across-the-board changes that people are worried about are of that nature, and I'm totally willing to leave those be. I'm not sure how to phrase it in a pithy bold-face sentence, but I'm with all y'alls there. (Also, the ''Robot Masters'' thing, being basically a cameo-fest, falls under the same category. Plus isn't it in the G1 continuity-family anyway, so principle #1 would make it a moot point for everyone but Sideways?)<br />
:Now, one disadvantage I do have here is I'm not privy to any Awesome Insider Knowledge like some of you apparently are. As an uppity prole, my view from the trenches is this: Our current policy of rearranging content at the first whiff of "singularity" is maddening and unsustainable. The more Hasbro gets into the cross-continuity game, the more I cringe at how we're going to bend ourselves over backwards trying to keep up with the multiversal-retcon-of-the-moment. This top-down approach does not serve us. What makes a lot more sense is a bottom-up approach, where we let each series define its own view of the multiverse from within the continuity-family-based structure that's been our foundation since the beginning. In other words: links, not mergers.<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:19, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::I think with your second paragraph there, you 100% summed up my main worry about continuing with our current tendencies. I worry that our policy that originally might have been intended to keep things simple and coherent is going to end up being very not-simple and not-coherent. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::: Cross series or cross continuity family is a false distinction, invented by us for administrative purposes. Bob & Larry have as little to do with the Sunbow cartoon as I do, or Pete does, or Furman does, or the Robot Masters guys do. Trying to sweep the problems of your proposal under the rug by saying that you're willing to ignore it when it's harmless would make for WAY more arguments than our current system. If all you're concerned about is singularities, of which there are 15 (And Unicron, Primus, The Fallen and Vector Prime are already completely done), then you probably shouldn't be talking about the issue in such general terms. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::: Yeah, it seems like it's only going to be an issue for around 15 people total at this point. The whole Sideways argument waged for what three days max and ended with ONE de-merged article and only *then* because he's one of the 15 special cases. The sanest and easiest way to handle this is on a case by case basis as we're doing now IMO. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 22:43, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::: I agree with Jack's opinion, especially the second paragraph ( -> "bottom-up approach"). --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 08:05, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::I'm sorry that my ideas have been interpreted in such a disruptive way. I thought their deepest impact would be in terms of paradigm, not in terms of number of rewrites. I tried to communicate that most of what we've already done would be unaffected, via point #1 and my endorsement of the current ghost/spark treatment. Ultimately, yes, what concerns me most are singularities and their ilk, but I don't know where the boundaries of "their ilk" are (Sideways being a case-in-point), and I didn't want to artificially limit the scope of topic.<br />
::::As for "series" and "continuity family" being false distinctions, I strongly disagree. This is going to take some explaining, so... [deep breath, hitches belt, cracks neck] ...Let's start with the series:<br />
::::When a series in any franchise, TF or not, is created, there are functional and cultural expectations. On the inside, there's a structure consisting of (usually) a consistent editorial/writing staff, bible, production company, etc. On the outside, there's an audience-expectation that each episode you watch or issue you read should coexist in the same world with previous installments. (There are of course exceptions, such as anthology series, but they're usually called out as such; the rule is consistency.)<br />
::::But at the same time, those internal and external expectations by default don't extend ''beyond'' the series boundaries. A writer may be expected not to contradict what's already happened in a series, but he or she generally isn't expected to be knowledgeable about PREVIOUS series. Whenever a series ends and a new team creates a new series, it's understood that a new foundation is being laid. If they choose to follow from previous work, that's a burden they're welcome to take upon themselves, but the bar for consistency is by default much higher internally.<br />
::::That's why I see the series as the fundamental "unit" of continuity, more so than episodes or issues. And I think that's embedded in our wiki structure, too: We're happy to sectionalize our articles to high heaven, but by default we stop at the series. We ''could,'' especially on sparse articles, run the content of multiple series together into a single writeup, but it's always been unspokenly understood that we just ''don't.''<br />
::::In fact, I've always thought that the logically-consistent ideal would be to separate our articles based on series, but I recognize that as a functionally terrible idea. We don't really need a dozen articles saying how G1 Ironhide is an ornery old coot in ever-so-subtly different contexts. Which brings us to the continuity-family, which ''is'' a little more artificial an idea on our part than the series, but there's still a real-world basis. The G1 cartoon/comic split is the best example, where we can see that both series drew simultaneously from the same well of ideas but held zero consistency with each other. In terms of character, there is a shared concept of "G1 Ironhide" (originally expressed in the toy bio) that all G1 series refer to. They might not necessarily hew to it, but the creators always know that it fundamentally ''matters.''<br />
::::Just as with series, there are natural boundaries to the continuity-family as well. Anybody writing ''Energon'' Ironhide knows that there's no need to pay attention to the G1-Ironhide ideal. This boundary is looser than with series, but it's juuuuust tight enough that we've been able to build a wiki around it. The danger I see in going further out (which is what merging singularities entails) is losing the integrity of the series that are the true foundation. Take the "Hall of Fame" bios, some of which are spread so wide in their inclusiveness that they cease to actually ''apply'' in any specific case anymore.<br />
::::To put this in user-experience terms, imagine for a moment that we'd decided the ''Almanac'' reference to live-action Sideways was strong enough to merge the articles. Then picture a user reading about a movieverse writeup in some other article and seeing that there's a "Sideways" character. He clicks on the link, and is taken to... the UT page. The primary message we're sending is that the conglomerate of Sidewayses is the most important thing. It's only worth a note that, oh yeah, the movieverse gives no support to this connection. We've robbed the movieverse character of his own intro-summary, mainpic, unique Notes/Trivia... the independent ''identity'' that his native series gives him. Luckily, of course, this isn't the current case, and I'm very happy about that. But with a slightly stronger ''Almanac'' reference or a small shift in the prevailing mood, it easily could've been.<br />
::::Now, that might not be a problem to you depending on your view of our role as documenters. My view is that we should document things in the past with the same regard as we document things in the present. Of course Hasbro has the "right" to retcon whatever they want to... but that doesn't make it our duty to fall in lockstep. The best way to keep the balance is to maintain focus on the series, since ultimately almost all official fiction comes through the lens of individual series anyway. If Hasbro wants to use ''Prime'' to make grand statements about everything else, we should document the hell out of it... but from within the series (and, article-construction-wise, continuity family) perspective.<br />
::::Bwuh. Sorry for the novella there, but I couldn't think of a more concise way to put all that. And you'd questioned my focus on series/continuity-family more than once, so I thought you deserved a full explanation.<br />
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:44, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::Well thought out, as always, but I'm afraid that you misinterpreted my point when I said the series / continuity family was a false distinction. I should perhaps have made it more clear. I'm saying that the idea of two series being able to modify each other WITHIN a continuity family, but not BETWEEN two continuity families, is a false distinction. I'll grant that each series is a fairly logical unit. However, once you concede that, say, Beast Wars can modify the Sunbow cartoon or that the Energon comic can have relevance for the Armada television show, you've opened the door completely for, say, Animated to modify the Sunbow cartoon. You're still talking about completely different creative teams, completely different series bibles, completely different approval processes. The organizational web we have that binds Robot Masters to Kiss Players to Beast Machines to Wings of Honor to the Dreamwave profile books to Transformers vs G.I. Joe to Hearts of Steel is tenuous to the point of non-existent. What in-universe support for the idea that there is, well, by your own argument they wouldn't apply to anything outside of Alternity and some Fun Publication books. <br />
:::::Once you concede that one series can modify another, you concede that one series can modify another. I don't see any real way around that.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::There are indeed degrees of "modification" involved here, but that doesn't mean there's no distinction whatsoever and it's free-for-all time. That way lies Wikipedia. Like I said above, arguably my logical ideal IS to separate all series from one another, but I acknowledge the practical ridiculousness of that. The continuity-family basis is ultimately a kind of compromise, a maximum point of tolerance. Within that, I still advocate avoidance of inter-series modification, which is already our standard. Again, the ghost/spark example. Earlier you brought up how the original conception of Megatron didn't involve being a gladiator, and indeed, we never call him one when we're talking about the G1 'toon or any other series where that doesn't apply. (In fact, there ARE cases where I think our current application of continuity-family unity goes too far; I've argued for separating the Japanese and American incarnations of G1 Fort Max and Scorponok, for instance. But that's neither here nor there.)<br />
::::::I guess what it comes to is that I see the practical value of family-unity in spite of my series-ism, but the practical value diminishes rapidly the further we stretch our inclusion. And we can easily do injustice to the material we're supposed to be documenting impartially when we sacrifice unique presentations, as in the Sideways hypothetical I just described.<br />
::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:41, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::I think we're in agree-to-disagree territory here. The compromise you propose is ultimately unsatisfying, at least to me, as there's no real basis for it. Basically, you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and saying that anything north of the line is fine, anything south is not. To me, that seems like an approach that undercuts the basic intellectual appeal of your proposal. The current system, as you note, does allow us to handle things like the Beast Wars spark / ship ideas under an intellectually coherent framework. Your proposal undercuts that framework and then hand-waves the undercutting away by saying "don't look at the man behind the curtain." By sabotaging your own intellectual rigor, all you're left with is a proposal that will probably introduce more work without even a strong logic under-pining it. It doesn't go far enough to justify itself, and when you take the idea to its logical conclusion it becomes unworkable.<br />
:::::::If it ain't broke, don't fix it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:09, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::We're into abstract enough territory that I feel I should ask: How would ''you'' define the current system, which you've just described as "intellectually coherent"? I think one of my concerns is that I don't really ''see'' a system to it, just a loose collection of tendencies that at the moment happens to be dominated by a desire to bend our presentation to the latest English-language retcons. (In fact, more than that, I also see a trend towards accepting the words of sufficiently Hasbro-riffic creators for binding definitions of controversial topics, like "singularities" and the structure of the multiverse, rather than being rigorous about in-fiction proof.) In putting down my ideas systematically, it's not just that I thought it was a better system, but that it was a system at ''all.'' I know some people hate to give up the feeling of flying by the seat of our pants, but the more overgrown both the wiki and the fiction itself becomes, the more we need to know what our foundation is. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::::::Gee, I was attempting to bow out gracefully with the 'agree to disagree' comment. I'll take a stab at codifying the current policy as I see it if no one else will, but I'd rather defer that to someone like Thy or Sipher, who have been around longer and perhaps have already articulated it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:17, 9 July 2010 (EDT) <br />
::::::::::Ha! Graceful exit: thwarted!<br />
::::::::::It may not be apparent, but my purpose in doing everything I've done is to find common ground, not try to dominate with my ideas. I figured that laying down some principles would make a good platform to hammer things out on, whether or not the final direction of things went "my" way. So I'd feel more comfortable agreeing to disagree if I had a better grasp on what I was disagreeing ''with...''<br />
::::::::::(Oh, and by the way, I'm still trying to figure out how to amend those principles to properly include the cameo-exception. I do completely admit that THAT, at least, is a hole in my reasoning.)<br />
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:53, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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Okay, the Multiversal Singularity idea is a bit of a hot and heated topic at the moment, so why don't we try to come at this from a different perspective? After all, one of the main objections to Jackpot and Jeysie's suggestion to change approaches is that only 15 or so pages are really at issue with the MS stuff. In order to get support to change approaches, the changes should be applicable to pages other than MS topics, correct? Making them better, and certainly not making them worse.<br><br />
Here's a recent example that has less far-reaching consequences: in FunPub's ''[[Flames of Yesterday]]'', the Decepticon Stormtrooper [[Drench (Decepticon)|Drench]] appears, and joins the Elite Guard at the end. He's undergoing retrofitting and paint changes, while providing the Autobots with the same liquid weaponry as the Decepticons. There's an ''implication'' that this meant he and the Autobot Color Changer named [[Drench (Autobot)|Drench]] are the same being. <br><br />
How would the two sides in the debate want to treat that? Assume [[Jesse Wittenrich]] has said "Yes, that was my intention", or "No, it wasn't". How would that affect the decision? Would anyone suggest merging the two Drench pages? There would be no direct contradiction in doing so -- they've never both appeared in the same continuity. Or should it just be solved by a note on both pages? "These guys may be the same guy in WoH, but not necessarily in other realities"?<br><br />
Try this out, people -- use it as a thought exercise instead of making similar arguments back and forth. It might help conceptualize things better. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 09:49, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Excellent question, sir! Firstly, I don't think Wittenrich's opinion matters. In a previous thread, I saw Jim use the "What made it on to the page, or the screen, or the toy, THAT'S what matters" argument against my position, which is ironic because I completely agree. I think knowledge of how the creative process generally works can be valuable in figuring out the framework to organize fiction in (such as the reasons I just gave up above for being series-centric), but the closer we get to specific creators' opinions, the less regard I give.<br />
:Secondly, good choice in skirting my point #1 up there. Even though they ARE in the same continuity-family, we've still separated them because their original portrayals (toy bios, basically) seemed to make them different characters.<br />
:Thirdly... well, let's dig into it: At the moment the only definite in this story is that it's about the Decepticon Drench. So it certainly should go on [[Drench (Decepticon)]], as it currently does. As long as there's uncertainty about what he was rebuilt into, we should play it conservatively and keep the pages where they are (with links, of course). Now, let's say there's a followup story where he has unambiguously become the pre-existing Autobot Drench. What then?<br />
:Tough call. There is indeed no continuity-contradiction there, but there is an identity contradiction. Autobot Drench's only real establishment is his toy bio, which gives him a DRASTICALLY different personality than his Decepticon namesake's. The fact that they were released in different markets makes it even less likely that there was any intended connection. You might hate me for bringing this up, but I'm going to defer to the same logic I used in the [[Goldbug (IDW)]] debate: We shouldn't break up the telling of WoH Drench's story, but we should still keep the pages separate and tell the story on only one of them (with links). As for WHICH one, I'd say whichever one's personality matches closer with the WoH portrayal. And if he's written with equal parts both.... fuck it, man, I don't even know. At that point I'd probably say "merge" because there's nothing else left to do except duplication, which tips the practicality scales.<br />
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::The Goldbug debate is a bit different because of the universe where Goldy and Bumby actually coexist side by side. It's an oddity. I would advocate merging the two Drench articles, but only mentioning the Decepticon part in the WOH section (y'know separating things by series like we do with every other page on the wiki. Why is this suddenly a problem?). I really don't see a problem with this at all. It says nothing about the Autobot Drench in any of the other G1 continuity family universes. [[User:Kaje|Kaje]] 20:14, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
===Intercontinuity retcons===<br />
<br />
I haven't detected major problems with them so far.Here's my view of them, (maybe it's worth posting, maybe not).<br />
<br />
'''1) Alpha Trion being one of the original Thirteen'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Maybe he has the same backstory as [[Nexus Prime]]. There ''was'' an Alpha Trion in NP's profile, maybe he split himself up after doing that to Nexus. That way, it wouldn't conflict heavily with the singularity thing. Altough the [[Quill]] thing seems ridiculous.<br />
<br />
'''2)The renaming of the FFoD4 narrators using pre-existing names'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Actually, seems down to either that, or leave them nameless. Giving them those names ties in the cartoon with other G1 media. The name [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] is rather established in TF media as Optimus prime's predecessor, any other name might get bad fan reaction. (don't know how that [[Prima]] thing would work [[multiversal singularity|considering...]])<br />
<br />
'''3) [[The Fallen]] being Megatronus Prime'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Would be a good explanation for [[Megatron (myth)|this Megatron]]. Hope the writers don't forget that.<br />
<br />
'''4) [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]] going to Shanghai'''<br />
{{-}}<br />
Not much reason to believe that he's [[Sideways (ROTF)]]. It doesn't say which universe's Shanghai he was trying to get to. Even if it ''was'' Movieverse Shanghai, maybe he was trying to take the place of another Sideways and ''pretend'' to be him.<br />
<br />
Well, hopefully future TF fiction doesn't start making things worse. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:05, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:A3: I support Jackpot's suggestion of leaving all the Alpha Trion articles separate but having prominent annotations and links on all of them. G1'toon A3 just had too long a history and left too many "fingerprints" throughout for us to be expected to be able to rewrite it and make it all make sense with an after-the-fact retcon. This is supposed to be one of those things you don't think too hard about, but the very existence of this wiki is an exercise in thinking too hard about stuff. I don't think it would be possible to merge all the A3 incarnations into a single article and still have something that was remotely readable, let alone interesting. Make the annotations and links prominent. Heck, we could even invent a new category, color, or font for annotations and links referring to the 13 or to cases where something is not "supposed" (Sideways) but is actually "true" (A3) but irreconcilable from a narrative perspective. <br />
<br />
:FFOD narrators: I really don't like this, but any real name is better than shit like "New Narrator". Again, make a note of all the spacegod woowo powers that are attributed to the characters in other media, but otherwise let the in-fiction narrative remain as it is. I also think we've reached a fair compromise by splitting Sentinel (FFOD) from Sentinel (WOH), and do hope we can stick to that. <br />
<br />
:Megatronus the Fallen: Changes nothing. Our current article points out that the Fallen's history is confusing, which it is, but it's also rather shallow. I get the feeling this will be the easiest of all four to integrate, if the time comes.<br />
<br />
:Sideways: Think we resolved this one. And if it worked for him, it can work for others if necessary.<br />
<br />
:The 13 are going to be a horrible pain in the ass, and if worst comes to worst I suggest dealing with them in the manner described for A3 above. That being said, ''THERE ARE ONLY 13 OF THEM''. And Aaron said several of them would be entirely new creations with no prehistory to confusingly interfere with. We'll probably have maybe 6 really awful stupid overcomplicated headaches. These have NOTHING to do with the way we generally do business here, because generally Transformers are not magic woowoo spacegods, so we don't have to worry about changing our usual m.o. for the sake of working around these freaks. Don't miss the forest because a tree got in the way. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:48, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::Once again, Thy is right... well, mostly. Once again I hasten to point out we don't even know the whole story with A3 and the Fallen and the pre-existing 13 guys and how Prime is going to deal with all this. It's too early. Let's not renovate the entire house when simply cleaning a cabinet will suffice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:54, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::So,I guess we aren't facing major issues with these yet, although this stuff seems to be worrying. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 13:38, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== TFsource ad buy ==<br />
<br />
TFsource contacted me, having seen our perennial Reprolabels ad up above and wanting in on a piece of the action, wanting to permanently buy one of our other ad spots. The question I have is, would/should we restrict them from ads depicting "third-party" toys and bootlegs? Perhaps this is the ghost of BotCon hovering over me, since their Wall Of Trademark And Copyright Theft Directly Facing the Hasbro Booth is prominent in my mind, and I know a few of the editors here expressed some displeasure with that. Is that a big deal for anyone, does anyone care in this context, or should I be all "ABSOLUTELY!" and then we make a deal and rake in the dough? Can we even judge, since we have, you know, all of this scanned material and whatnot? These are the questions I present. Tell me how much they matter. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:24, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:All else being equal I'd prefer to avoid it, unless we're desperate for cash. We know some Hasbro staff look at this wiki and they've been clear in how much that stuff bugs them. Also, the more our pageviews include imagery of Fake Magnus Armor and Fake Springer and Fake Rod et al., the more we're going to have to deal with new arrivals who feel that's all kosher for inclusion in the main articles. If it's possible to get a TFSource ad that will never display a bootleg, then I'd have no problem with it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 14:36, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Seems like a reasonable restriction for us to make to me. My take on our scans is that one, we generally err on the side of fair use in not uploading entire pages and making sure we credit the hell out of things, and two, they're not a 100% vital part of the wiki anyway--if Hasbro told us to take every scan down tomorrow we could comply and still have a perfectly usable (just a less visually exciting) wiki.<br/><br />
::That's kind of different from openly advertising toys that totally violate Hasbro's copyright, though. Even aside from the legal tangles (which is no small aside, certainly), while I know we are in that murky grey area in some things, we ''have'' always tried to play as fair as we can with Hasbro in how we operate. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:40, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::I agree, no knockoffs in our ads if we can help it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:44, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ditto on no knockoffs in the ads. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 14:59, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::ALL ABOARD THE DITTO ASTROTRAIN --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:07, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::N-O on the K-Os. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:12, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Yeah, if TFSource can give us ad without IP infringing product, I say let em in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:17, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Yikes, I'm looking at the side banner right now and it's full of IP infringing products. The one I see has Knight Morpher Commander, Crossfire Munition and Explorer and Warbot Defender. The only ACTUAL Transformers product in there is Masterpiece Ghost Starscream. I think it would be bad form to keep ads like that on the site. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:19, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ads without IP infringing material would be fine with me. [[User:MrBlud|MrBlud]] 18:56, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Ugh. When they were allowed to buy the ad space, did they promise no knock-offs? - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 23:12, 7 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Big NO on knockoffs, including third-party. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 01:51, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::I am cool with them buying adspace IF they only advertise official Transformers products. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:14, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I say YES to having the Third party stuff on here. As you can see by the continuity discussion above Hasbro don't really give a damn about Transformers fiction the way we do. The third party stuff proves that those guys have passion that many in Hasbro do not. And "knock-offs" is a bit harsh, no? So in summary, screw Hasbro and yeah Fansproject! And let's be honest if the choice as to who controls Transformers came down to a two-way battle between Hasbro and TFWiki, who would you pick? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 10:44, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Drmick, we're talking '''''IP infringement''''' here and we occasionally have actual Hasbro folks peek in here time to time. I think I speak for the others in that none of us wants them knocking on the wiki's doors with some form of a C&D or something that'll restrict us (save certain circumstances). We've probably toed a couple lines somewhere more than several times, and I for one, do NOT want our relationship with Hasbro to be messed up. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 12:22, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::What LG said. Also, we're not talking about putting Fansproject's knockoffs on the wiki itself... just adspace for sites dedicated to selling such knockoffs. And I'm giving that idea a big fat ''hell no''. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 23:49, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::No doubt the only reason the ad is still up is because Walky's on the road. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:38, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::What ad are you guys seeing? All I see is a Project Wonderful sidebar ad (current bidder is Unreal Books) and reprolabels permanent banner up top. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:55, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::I'm seeing a TFSource ad ABSOLUTELY FULL of pics of third-party stuff. And MP Ghost Starscream. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 02:57, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::Yeah, for some reason I'm not seeing any of that. I just see two Project Wonderful ads on the left hand side "Advertisement" sidebar, so TF Source's ad must be triggered by IP address or something. Also, if the ad is already up after only one day (or less) of community consultation, and Walky's not around to deal with administration problems relating to it (especially as there is a fear of how TF Source's wares would look to Hasbro), then that's poor planning on his part, (no offense intended, boss.) --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:02, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::Weird, it's gone for me, now. Where it was I have a Project Wonderful ad displaying Akemi's Anime World. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:11, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::Still there for me. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 03:36, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::Just tried it on another browser that I never use (in case there's some cache thing on the main browser - no change, I don't see the TF Source banner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::Project Wonderful ads are localized, guys. TFSource probably just shelled out the dough for their ad in the States only. I've never seen it up, myself. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 04:34, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::::I'm in ''Poland'', Detour. That's on an entirely different ''continent'' than the US. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 04:37, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::::I'm in Canada, and I have seen it. I just don't see it anymore. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:44, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::::::::::::::::::Wait, you're Polish? I had no idea. You talk gooder English than me. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 04:39, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::::: The advert's currently only displaying in Europe. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:26, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::::::::: No wonder, all I see are just two Project Wonderful random ads. And I'm in Taiwan. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 05:52, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
TFsource said they were willing to give us a banner that has no third-party stuff on it! Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:01, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Oh yeh, that sounds nice to me. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 08:09, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::And it should be noted that during the time we were displaying the "offending" ad, we had not yet agreed to have an adspace bought out by TFSource. They'd just bought the ad the normal way, and as they'd been a prior bidder, they were pre-approved.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 11:13, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Excellent - my apologies, Walky. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:00, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
That sidebar ad with the knock-off Swindle, Springer, and HoS Optimus has started showing up for me again, in Canada if that's relevant. It had stopped showing up less than a day after I first saw it, but now it's there again. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 23:46, 11 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:Another Canadian here. Same situation as Cattleprod. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:58, 11 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::Me too, same ad as before, knockoffs and all. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:12, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yep, knock-off ad here too. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:44, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::On the Project Wonderful site, both the Canadian and EU traffic are seeing the version of the banner with the Munitioner upgrade sets, Knight Morpher Commander and Warbot Defender. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:24, 12 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Now I see THE ad, too. (Taiwan, Asia) --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 22:40, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
Welp, Californian and now I'm seeing the Munitioner set, alongside Knight Morpher and Warbot Defender with MP Ghost Starscream. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:26, 14 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm in Ohio and getting Naruto vol. 48 as the ad. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 02:45, 14 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::TFSource's knockoffs ad is back for Canadian and European visitors. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:59, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Seeing all sorts of KOs advertised now. Can we void their contract and keep their money as a fine for breaking their agreement with us? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:02, 15 July 2010 (EDT)PS- since when is NC in Europe/Canada?<br />
<br />
:::Welp, [http://img535.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead01.jpg/ this] [http://img693.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead02.jpg/ I certainly] [http://img14.imageshack.us/i/tfsourcead03.jpg/ agree]. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 15:05, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::Same here, and I'm American. I'm only sort of mentioning this because they let someone steal my credit card. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 22:50, 17 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::::As mentioned, we haven't actually committed to any deal yet with them, and any ads you see are them going through the standard Project Wonderful process. They've bought ads with us before, and thus as long as they have the high bid, they're pre-approved. They're going to have the proposed first-party-products-only ad to submit to Walky sometime next week.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:11, 17 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
====Guys====<br />
There is no "contract" to "void." Their permanent ad buy hasn't STARTED. They've been advertising with those particular ads for months. You've just finally noticed them because I brought them up. We haven't even discussed what the ad space will cost them since I've been busy and they said they won't have a new ad for us for about a week anyway. So, like, chill out. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:31, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:For months? Huh... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:21, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
== Simon Furman's IDW pitch ==<br />
<br />
So here's a thing. The following text is Simon Furman's original pitch for Transformers comics when IDW took up the license, printed in the back of the "Best of Simon Furman" hardback collection. I skimmed this a few years back when the book was released and it passed under my nose at work, but since then, we've never had any of the info on the wiki, and I've never seen any discussion of it on any forums - presumably because none of us actually BOUGHT the dang thing, since we own all these stories in multiple formats already. I borrowed the book and transcribed the pitch so that anyone interested can read it, and we can maybe actually do something with the info. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:01, 8 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Hmm. I've never seen this before. It's pretty interesting that Furman was itching to do Cybertron , which is weird, because by the time IDW was announced as the new comic licensee, Cybertron had started. Would take awhile to get a Cybertron comic up and running, I would think. By the time it came out, it might be already too late. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:58, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::It wouldn't surprise me if that's why it was modified so much. But, um, should we be duplicating this sort of material here? I mean, sure, The Best of Simon Furman wasn't the most popular book, but isn't this just copyright infringement? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 03:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::Yeah, that was on my mind as I was transcribing it. I don't really intend to permanently house this anywhere - I just wanted to get it up so people could get a look, take in the info, maybe do something wiki-related with it, then I'd scrub it. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:18, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
TRANSFORMERS… A NEW DIRECTION<br />
<br />
A Proposal For IDW<br />
<br />
--Simon Furman--<br />
<br />
<br />
In the (Armada/Energon) Cybertron timeline…<br />
<br />
…UNICRON IS DESTROYED, utterly wiped out of existence by a seismic shock warhead detonated deep within its superstructure (events which would be visited retroactively in any subsequent ‘Energon’ conclusion issues).<br />
<br />
But as one threat to Cybertron ends, another has only just begun. A rift in time and space – a massive ‘chronal’ black hole formed by the annihilation of Unicron – is threatening to suck Cybertron in, tear it apart in an internal maelstrom of deconstructed space and time. Only by anchoring the planet, via a spacebridge, to Earth’s energon core can Cybertron maintain its tenuous position, but it’s at best a quick fix. To seal the rift, they need the power of PRIMUS, the progenitor of the entire TRANSFORMERS race. But while a fragment of the dormant Primus lifeforce exists within Cybertron, the rest is lost, scattered throughout the universe, buried deep within strange, alien worlds.<br />
<br />
Roused (from eons of chronal stasis in a dimension outside of normal space and time) by the impending cataclysm, the immortal sentinel known as Vector Prime spearheads the search for the Primus lifeforce, guiding Optimus Prime and his Autobots on a quest that will take them to aliens worlds in the farthest corners of the galaxy and beyond. But where Prime and the Autobots go… Megatron and the Decepticons are never far behind.<br />
<br />
Clad in the armor of Unicron, fuelled by a fragment of his Spark, Megatron has become a true agent of chaos. He’s prepared to sacrifice Cybertron, Earth and any other world in order to contain and absorb the lifeforce of Primus himself, his ultimate aim to transform himself… into a living god!<br />
<br />
And the ‘Cybertron’ timeline is not the only one to feel the effects of the destruction of Unicron. In fact… it’s one of the lucky ones.<br />
<br />
<br />
<<In all the disparate timelines, all the myriad dimensions, there is but one Unicron. Though physical presence is limited to a single reality at any given time, it exists simultaneously in countless dimensions, shadows of its vast, ancient consciousness inextricably interwoven into the complex geometry of time and space. Its destruction in the Cybertron timeline creates ripples, which become shockwaves, which gather force, become a tidal wave of destruction. In some realities, the effect of the ‘chaos wave’ is total, instantaneous, entire timelines… wiped out. In others, the initial effect is less pronounced, a dramatic event heralding a slow descent into space/time anarchy.>><br />
<br />
<br />
In the G1 timeline…<br />
<br />
…CYBERTRON IS DESTROYED! The resident Autobots and Decepticons barely have time to evacuate the planet, to eject the core of the planet and it’s precious Vector Sigma cargo (an eventuality made feasible way back when [in The War Within v3]) before the planet is torn apart, smashed into component molecules by the roiling chaos wave. Many Cybertronians don’t make it at all, and are simply wiped out. In a shockingly short time, Cybertron is gone. Forever.<br />
<br />
Shocked, stunned, bereft of their homeworld, the remaining populous finds itself spread far and wide throughout the galaxy, seeking (in the Autobots’ case) safe harbor or (in the Decepticons’ case) new worlds to conquer… and colonise. Megatron’s Decepticons have perfecting ‘mechaforming’ technology, invasive, self-replicating machinery designed to restructure the entire geological substructure of a planet, in effect turn it into a new Cybertron. And since the Decepticons are indifferent to the presence or fate of any indigenous civilizations on the planet(s) of choice, it’s down to the Autobots to stop them… at any cost.<br />
<br />
Earth, always a pivotal world in the G1 timeline, becomes even more of a focal battleground. Its natural resources are a potent brew that – with the right exploitation and manipulation – can be turned into energon, the lifeblood of the Transformer race. In Decepticon hands the whole world would be turned into a vast refinery, bled dry to fuel the creation of the ‘new’ Cybertron.<br />
<br />
And Optimus Prime has an even more pressing concern. Contacted by Vector Prime (who can move within all remaining TF timelines), he is warned that the omniversal geometry is critically out of alignment. The removal of – for want of a better word – ‘evil’ has disturbed an age-old natural balance. Though it goes against every Autobot credo, they must somehow resurrect the dark force known, among other things, as Unicron! The key is the so-called ‘Decepticon Matrix’, a quasi-mythical power source spread throughout the galaxy. Said to be fragments of Unicron itself, released in some apocalyptic confrontation with Primus before the dawn of time, its retrieval and coalescence could restore the balance and dissipate the chaos wave.<br />
<br />
Reluctantly, with grave reservations (and considerable dissent in the Autobot ranks) Prime forges an uneasy alliance with two of Unicron’s heralds, Cylonus and Scourge, both of whom are dedicated to the rebirth of their master (for different reasons). But, unknown to Prime, they have a secondary agenda, a plan to use a fragment of the Decepticon Matrix to destroy Megatron… and recreate him as the unstoppable force known as Galvatron!<br />
<br />
<br />
<<And so, in one timeline, the Autobots seek to make Primus whole once more, while in another, they seek to resurrect the spirit of Unicron, leading ultimately to the new, universe-shaking confrontation between the two ancient forces… one that will (briefly) unite all remaining TRANSFORMERS timelines and continuities in an epic battle for survival.>><br />
<br />
<br />
CYBERTRON #0 (AND ONGOING)/G1 #0 (AND ONGOING)<br />
<br />
Amidst the larger framework of the ‘chaos wave’ saga, the ongoing thrust of Cybertron is a focused series of one or two-part (largely self-contained, featuring different character assortments) adventures set on Cybertron, Earth and the key planets (Speed, Beast and Giant) that support its core quest… the search for the lifeforce of Primus. At every turn, the Autobots are confounded and frustrated by the Decepticons, but in the process forge new alliances and friendships, both on Earth and beyond. It’s a race against time… with the fate of Cybertron (and more) hanging in the balance.<br />
<br />
The G1 title expands the scope and reach of the line, exploring wider character/conflict story arcs (while pulling in much more fan-friendly past and future continuity) and dramatically shaking the whole TRANSFORMERS mythos to its core, streamlining and redefining the sometimes confusing mass of ‘alternate’ timelines. But as with Cybertron, the focus will shift to different groups of Autobots/Decepticons on different worlds, faced with differing agendas and challenges.<br />
<br />
The issue #0s will be mirror-images of each other, both told from the perspective of Vector Prime as he awakens to an omniverse in chaos, threatened on all fronts. His narrative will serve to encapsulate what has gone before while his actions introduce the primary cast and lay the groundwork for what is to come.<br />
<br />
===Noticed something===<br />
<br />
{{quote|both told from the perspective of Vector Prime as he awakens to an '''omniverse''' in chaos}}<br />
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Some use of the word [[omniverse]]. Wow. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:16, 9 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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===Added it in somewheres===<br />
I've added references to that thing at [[IDW Generation 1 continuity]] and [[Cybertron (franchise)]]. Did I do it right? --[[User:Fortress Minimus|Fortress Minimus]] 17:21, 19 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Usernames ==<br />
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Our latest user [[User:Michaelbayblows|Michaelbayblows]] has what I consider to be a somewhat inflammatory username considering the how many arguments ensue regarding the live-action movies. It's probable that you would have difficulty registering on a forum with such a username. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:56, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:I was thinking the same thing. We blocked some guy from registering such a name referencing Detour, why should we allow such statements against Bay? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:09, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::Yeah, I also thought his name was inappropriate. I don't think personal threats would be acceptable here, particularly about such a controversial figure in Transformers fandom. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:10, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::On Wookieepedia we routinely block people for having inappropriate names. I see no reason why we shouldn't have a similar policy here. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:19, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::How he creates a new account and the old one is blocked? Some of his edits aren't too bad; I don't see why he shouldn't get a second chance. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:21, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::Block the old account, post a nice note explaining that we want him to stay and continue working but that he cannot use a name that is attacking/insulting any person. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:32, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::I am in support of this, but he should be informed via his talkpage for one full day prior to the block, for the sake of not being too harsh. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:04, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::I fully agree with Detour. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 18:18, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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::::::::Now we just need to find an actual admin. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:12, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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:::::::::And set the thing right. --'''[[User:TX55|<span style= "color:#00FA9A">TX55</span>]]'''<small><SUP>''[[User talk:TX55|<span style= "color:#0000CD">TALK</span>]]''</SUP></small> 21:47, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Official sources policy ==<br />
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Recently, some of us have been explaining to a user why video from a cellphone camera of the movie set cannot be taken as official sources. I was going to link to the official sources page when I realized that I do not know what it's called and cannot find it. Which brings me to this point: we actually took the time to write out and codify our what we consider to be official sources, right? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:22, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:It's at [[Help:Official info]]. And next time, somebody should probably just place the <nowiki>{{scoop bastard}}</nowiki> template. (I was going to but couldn't find a good chance.) --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 16:26, 10 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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== Disgusting ad ==<br />
Sorry if I'm posting this at the wrong place, but is there anywhere we can complain about the ads on the wiki? Not to overstep my (very modest) bounds here or anything, but that ad with the GIANT PIMPLE on the back of the guy's neck is really off-putting... You've probably all seen it by now right? I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this... Call me squeamish if you will, but it's really bothering me... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:40, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:I'm with this 100%. I'm so glad I haven't eaten a thing all day, because I'd have lost my breakfast and my lunch by now. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 14:49, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::I wouldn't mind so much if it would only pop up occassionally (then again, my gross tolerance is relatively high). But to be confronted with the world's largest zit every page I go on this wiki... Rather not. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:55, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
:::I checked the PW sites - must have been outbid so I missed it. What the heck was it for? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:37, 15 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
::::It was for a website ''about the world's largest pimple!'' It was [http://www.worldslargestzit.net this] I believe. SO not missing that ad. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 03:19, 16 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Disamb template on calendar pages?==<br />
So while fiddling around with the latest additions to our "day in history" pages, I got to thinking. Separating bullets with a blank line adds to our pages' sizes because that adds a "list start/stop" in the coding, yes?<br><br />
Well... does the <nowiki>{{disamb}}</nowiki> Template do that when we split that up with a blank line between them? The only real difference we ''see'' on the page is a "—" instead of a ":" after the bolded year. I fiddled with it a bit (without saving) and it looks good to me; I'll probably do up a Sandbox. If using this template doesn't add to the page size in the back-end that we don't see in the normal edit window... it sure would make it easier to read in said edit window, plus give the lists that litlte extra space between lines for readability on the normal pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:45, 21 July 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==TF Wiki Firefox Search Engine Add-On==<br />
I'm surprised that one wasn't created a long time ago. It would make things incredibly convenient, and it can't be that hard to make. Anyone else like the idea? Anyone here have experience?<br />
--[[User:Devastator|Devastator]] 15:27, 21 July 2010 (EDT)</div>Devastator