MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Help talk:Style guide

2009-10-19T23:41:20Z

Dr L: /* Template:Move */ new section

==Naming: series suffixes==
I really completely disagree with labelling a character with his series even if there's no other character with the name. If other character gets the name, it's not all that difficult to move the page. Why make it look ugly when it doesn't have to? [[User:Singularity|Singularity]] 06:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I really completely disagree with you coming in and arbitrarily declaring a new naming system despite the fact that there was already a perfectly good one implemented across numerous pages already existing, myself. There's no reason to have to clean up behind people who can't spell "generations" and "timelines" without typoing when an abbreviated line description will do. And when another character gets named Hound, suddenly every single link to "Hound" has to be changed to "Hound_(G1)". Why is that a better idea than planning ahead to begin with?

Speaking for myself. [[User:LV|LV]]

* I completely agree with LV. It's better to plan ahead than have to go back and fix a billion goddamn links, ESPECIALLY since there's, you know a MOVIE COMING OUT NEXT YEAR WITH A BRAND NEW CONTINUITY and all. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper X]] 06:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

"Making it look ugly when it doesn't have to" sounds just like the new super-long unabbreviated tags you gave everyone, Singularity. Thanks a lot. --[[User:ItsWalky]]

So are we using (UT) or (Unicron Trilogy)? Also, what do we do about Blurr - both in Armada and Cybertron (arguably) as different characters? --[[User:Alexamar]]

Blurr's an interesting case. He actually has TWO bios. One that suggests he's a different character, and a separate one that only appears on the website which states outright he's the Armada guy. Both contradict his appearances on the television series. I would suggest merely noting this at the end of Blurr (UT)'s page. However, there ARE several names reused in the same continuity, like Silverbolt (BW), Barrage (G1), and Thunderblast (UT). When we stumble upon cases like these, an additional modifier should suffice, such as "Silverbolt (BW) (Fuzor)" or "Thunderblast (UT) (Mini-Con)". --[[User:ItsWalky]]

An encyclopedia is supposed to accommodate readers, not editors. A reader shouldn't be expected to know what the Hell "UT" means without looking it up, nor not snicker at "BM". If you were that enamored with the naming system, then perhaps you should've established it in a style guide to indicate some actual consensus; it doesn't really serve as a deterrent after the fact. Now there's some evidence of actual consensus, I'll back off on the naming issue. I'll suggest "Silverbolt (BW Fuzor)" and "Thunderblast (UT Mini-Con)", though. [[User:Singularity|Singularity]] 19:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to say that Thunderblast should have (UT) and (Mini-Con) instead of (UT Mini-Con) - as Thunderblast is both a Mini-Con and part of the UT, instead of an isolated group of (UT Mini-Cons). Same for Silverbolt - (BW) (Fuzor) instead of (BW Fuzor). BW Fuzor excludes all of BW and the other Fuzors... dig?
[[User:Alexamar]]

The following Cybertron names will need some way to be differentiated from other toys in the UT: Jolt, Armorhide, Brakedown Clocker and Override (aborted Magnus Mini-Cons), Spiral Backtrack and Oval (Street Speed Team, Cybertron and Armada), Downshift and Dirt Boss (UT and UT Mini-Con), Mirage (Armada & Energon), Wing Saber (Energon & Cybertron), Thundercracker (Armada & Cybertron), Swindle (Armada & Cybertron), Ransack (Armada & Cybertron), Buzzsaw, Thunderblast, Sideways, Crumplezone, Steamhammer, Payload, Thrust, Ramjet and Sunstorm.

Should we include things like Aaron Archer's nicknames for PX toys? Durge, Sprigger, Galaxy Shuttle, etc?
[[User:Alexamar]]

Spiral/Backtrack/Oval and Wing Saber are the same characters across the series, there is absolutely no need to differentiate. Thundercracker may or may not be the same character, same with Sideways. Also, no, Aaron's nicknames for the toys are unofficial and therefore have no place in the wiki.
[[User: M Sipher]]

==Series Identifiers==

Well, first off, we come up with an "official" Continuity Naming Schema (which will be pretty easy, let's do it now!), then we apply it as needed, with subsets as needed. (Silverbolt (BW) (Fuzor) vs. Silverbolt (BW) (Magnaboss)), etc. I wouldn't be opposed to mentioning Aaron's unofficial names in-passing as part of the overall article, as since they're Aaron's fan-canon, they're a noteworthy little footnote to the official product. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper X]] 06:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

:I think "T" is probably not a good choice for Timelines. One-letter abbreviations are too unclear. I would say either TL or TFT (similar to TFU).

:--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

==Japenese Names==
Why the hate? X-Bob58

We'll stop hating them when you start spelling them right. "Japanese," you. --[[User:ItsWalky]]

Not to mention the fact that this is a '''''English''''' encyclopedia. Of course, in that case, the corrupted air should be killing you right now. Flee, X-Bob! Flee![[User:Singularity|Singularity]] 19:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

To that end, here's a question I've come up with during my spelling-fix rampage today: Are we a British-english wiki, or an American-english one? There are quite a few things that I would consider misspellings, but I realize (realise?) that across the pond it's the correct spelling. (And, as a sidenote, if I've corrected anything that was spelled correctly under Brit-english rules and changed it, apologies... I don't have comprehensive knowledge of everything we spell differently.) [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] 05:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
: We're an American-English wiki, but I haven't been singling out those "mistakes" for fixing. Someone conceivably could, if they wanted to. I just don't value it as a high priority. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
::No it's not high priority, but I've got a bug in my bonnet about it right now. Work's been slow of late (and this is the type of thing I do for a profession). [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] 05:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

==Animation Proofs==
Should these be standard?
http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Cels/ACels1.html
*If you can get permission from the Bickmores to use their stuff (good luck!), I don't see why not. I wouldn't use it as the ONLY reference for characters, though, but combined with box art and comic scans (where applicable), I think it'll look nice. Send an email out and see what happens. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper X]] 06:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

==Naming: article types==

There is a relatviely small number of "article types" that will encompass the majority of articles on this wiki. Currently, there is redundancy and a lack of naming cohesion. At some level, the actual article name isn't very important because people aren't going to be simply typing URLs into their browser to find an article -- they'll do a search. Still, I'd like the naming scheme to be simple and consistent.
Following are some of these very common article types, and examples of my suggestions for their naming, if I have one:

*Franchise - "Armada". No qualifier after the name.
*Toyline - "Armada (toyline)". Toyline is one word.
*Character - "Hot Shot (UT)". Put the character's continuity in parantheses. If more than one character with that name exists in its continuity, clarify as briefly as possible. It's not critical that these exceptions have a strict, consistent naming scheme.
*Toy - ?? I think a parenthetical "toy" is non-ideal. I'm not sure why it bothers me, but part if is is the lack of extensibility. I almost think that the toys for a particular character should be [[Wikipedia:Subpage|subpages]] of the character page, especially since some characters have multiple toys. On the other hand, that could lead to confusion in cases where it's not clear whether a toy "is" a particular character or not. (T-Wrecks toy as a subpage of Grimlock? Tripedacus Agent toy as a subpage of the Ravage (G1) character page?)
**I think that toy pages should be one of our lowest priorities when there are resources like http://www.tfu.info out there. There is no point in duplicating TFU.info's work when there is so much else for us to do here. Simply linking to the relevant toys on TFU.info at the end of each character article we write is plenty, I think, for the forseeable future.
*Comic series - "Armada (comic)". If more than one comic with the name exists, and one is significantly more well known the more well known one should get the (comic) entry. So, "Armada (comic)" is the Dreamwave comic and the Panini series would get a name something like "Armada (Panini)" or "Armada (Panini comic)".
*Comic issue - "Warrior School". Name of the issue. No qualifiers needed unless the name conflicts with other article names.
*Cartoon series - "Armada (cartoon)". [[User:Singularity|Singularity]] moved a bunch of (cartoon) articles to (television series). I disagree with this for two reasons: First, "cartoon" is more brief. Second, "cartoon" can encompass things like an OVA or an animated movie that are not television series. This doesn't come up often, admittedly, but it allows things like the Robot Masters special and the Zone OVA to have acticle names that are parallel with the others.
*Cartoon episode - "Fire on the Mountain". Name of the episode. No qualifiers needed unless the name conflicts with other article names.

If anybody has thoughts on any of this, please say so.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

==Templates for "In such and such continuity..."==

Many, many articles on this Wiki refer to characters or events that belong to a particular continuity or continuity family. Those articles really need to say what continuty they are relevant for. However, inserting language to this effect can be awkward. For consistency's sake, I feel as if the use of templates would be best here. Any article that refers to a specific continuity can simply call the appropriate template, something like: "This article refers to a character, event, or idea from the 'G1 comic' continuity. It may or may not be accurate for other continuities." At some level the qualifiers in the article name can do this job, but many articles won't have such a qualifier -- [[lead sulfide crystals]] for example.

Probably this would be best achieved with multiple templates, one per continuity, rather than a single template that accepts an argument. They could even be customized with toyline logos or somesuch. Meta-continuities or more generic continuity families would also need templates.

The drawback to this idea is that we will end up with a lot of templates. However, I think that is preferable to having scores of pages that begin with "In the Dreamwave Armada comic continuity..." or, worse yet, don't specify at all the range of their applicability.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 23:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
:Or one smart template. The Epnav template just takes a keyword like 'G1' and grabs all the relevant links and strings relating to it.
:There hasn't been any talk on this in... 2 years, because I think a lot of people feel it's a low priority (and it is!) as well as... we want to be able to go custom when we want it.
:That said- there are some articles where ''despite'' these kind of notices I find myself struggling to grock the 'range' the article applies to. Take for instance the [[Lilleth]] article; I created it and I left off the continuity note because I felt that it it was not exclusive to one continuity- Cybertronic wildlife seems to occur in all continuities, and it seems ''wrong'' to say that the Lilleth exists in just one, isolated continuity. I'm ''still'' not sure how to resolve that conflict.
:Uh, secondarily, I think the top of our articles are... messy. We've got lots of 'notice' templates that are inconsistent sizes and don't play well with floats, plus disambigs, plus... random stuff like the franchise navigation templates which aren't placed consistently, etc. I'd like to explore a re-think and update on a lot of those universal templates we use-- ''especially'' the messagebox template- I hate that thing ''so'' much. Maybe create a consistent look-and-feel. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

::On the messagebox template (and notwithstanding... whatever the hell the Monaco changes will do to pages which use it or a derivative thereof; nor the fact that the margins are asymmetric, leaving more whitespace on the left than the right for no particular reason), how is that not a danger to the wiki? It's used on or via '''3566''' pages! That's over half the articles on the wiki - and it isn't even locked!!
::Can't its' uses be accommodated in CSS? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 00:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh, the new ad blocks are gonna break all the top-of-article notices, '''guaranteed'''. They don't even work with floated images. It'll be like you floated an image in the first line of an article. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
::::...actually, i just had a thought. hrm... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
:::::I have investigated, and unfortunately I have to report that the messagebox templates at the top of the page '''do''' conflict with the in-page floatbox ads.
:::::You see, the messageboxes are created using ''tables'', and when the wiki adblock sees a table at the top of the page, it figures- "Gee, I can't float there, I'll cover up part of the table!" And it substitutes a '''much''' less monitizable banner above the the article. This is very sad for Wikia, because it means that many of our pages will ''not'' feature these highly-desirable page-destroying ads, they will instead features [http://communitytest.wikia.com/wiki/Gonzo_Through_the_Years these] much less desirable banner ads.
:::::This is especially tragic because I have just (in response to some unrelated discussion whose details escape me at the moment) converted all our disambig templates into (identical-looking) tables, which means that any page which has a disambig tag will ''also'' not have the pushing-down adblocks. This is ''awful'' for Wikia, I feel '''terrible'''. However, tremendous amount of work and man-hours involves in executing the conversion, and I just don't think it would be practical to switch them back. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

== Spoilers ==

I think we need to add some kind of a "Spoiler" template for articles about the current comic and television series.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 16:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

==Cybertronic/Cybertron/Cybertronian==

"Cybertronic is an adjective, meaning "from Cybertron", generally used to describe a "futuristic" vehicle mode that is not a "real" Earth vehicle (or reasonable fascimile). Cybertron is a noun, meaning "an individual from the planet Cybertron", and Cybertronian is a noun and adjective, signifying a follower of the Liege Maximo. "

I've never heard anything about this before, where did they originate? --XBob

"Cybertron" was used in the Beast Wars episisode "The Spark." However, I don't think it was ever used again, and "Cybertronian" has been used in every occurance since. In light of that, I'm not sure why we're using "Cybertron" to describe a native of Cybertron. It's not only confusing, it's also really obscure. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Cybertron is also used in BW Rampage's tech spec. I can't think of any other uses, and the Beast Wars cartoon later used Cybertronian in "Go With The Flow." Cybertronic, for XBob and anyone else who doesn't know, was used multiple times in the G1 cartoon.--[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 04:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

'Cybertron' was used consistently throughout RiD. I think it's a useful term as long as you agree that there's an actual '''difference''' between Cybertronian and Cybertron. For instance: A Cybertron is actualyl fromt he planet Cybertron. A Cybertronian is OF the planet Cybertron, but not nevessarily a resident/native of it. Jhiaxus's G2 army was Cybertronian- many of them had never been to Cybertron. They were not 'Cybertrons.' It's a London/England thing. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

:I think saying youc an onyl use Cybertronian for a Liege-dude is silly. That's just Cubertronian (faction) v. Cybertronian (djective.) I mean,t hey used the term Cybertronian a LOT in the 'toon, INCLUDING the last line of the damn movie.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Derik and Walky this is too picky. There's no reason there can't be two adjectives that mean the same thing. Both Cybertronic and Cybertronian are used the same way in cannon, so both should be perfectly acceptable. [[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 10:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

...I thought Cybertronic was what they SPOKE. And Indiana was the DOG'S name! [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 18:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

*Naw, that was "Cybertronix." And I don't think that was ever used in-canon, but just what Bob and Larry said on ATT once. "Cybertronian" tends to be used for their language, most recently in the latest issue of the Fan Club comic. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Cybertronian even! Which Starscream alone among the core Decepticons, IIRC, can leave. Poor Starscream- his status as a scolar/scientist is the one thing no one remembered to port over to the Unicron trilogy. So he's jsut an arrogant warrior who thinks he's better. G1 screamer at least had some serious schooling to him. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say that these distinctions are... dumb. Cybertronian and Cybertronic are interchangable terms. Cybertron as referring to a Transformer is fine, but obscure, and probably better avoided for the sake of clarity. Cybertronian has much broader usage within the fandom and the canon than simply to refer to the G2 Decepticons, who honestly, I thought everybody just called "the G2 Decepticons". I am removing this section from the Style Guide for now, as most of the commenters seem to find it perplexing or unneccessary. If there are major objections (particularly from RolonBolon, who introduced it), please make them.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

== Page move ==

I think this page should be moved out of the article namespace into the Meta (Transformers Wiki:) namespace. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:The style guide really seems like a "help" page to me, so I'd prefer to keep it in the Help namespace. (It's not in the article namespace.) I'd forgotten the meta namespace even existed... turns out we do have a [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights|Copyrights]] page hiding in there. (Which I guess you found, judging from the policies page.) I almost wonder if the Community Portal should also be moved into Help just for simplicity... Basically, I don't like the idea of our meta stuff being split between two different namespaces (Transformers Wiki and Help). It is confusing and complicated. It should all be in the same place. And "Help" is simpler to remember and type, and more self-explanatory. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 02:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

::Can we have some more input on this? I agree with Steve, for what it's worth. I'd be happy with a decision made either way, though, as long as we have some consensus. [[Help:Contents#Main_policies_and_guidelines|As of right now,]] our "main" guide pages are scattered between two different namespaces, with no apparent logic behind it. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 02:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

:::It should be moved to [[Transformers Wiki:Style guide]] or [[Transformers Wiki:Manual of Style]]. It's a page about the '''Project''''s style guide, and the Transformers Wiki namespace is the Project namespace (<nowiki>[[Project:X]]</nowiki> is directly equivalent to <nowiki>[[Transformers Wiki:X]]</nowiki> - it wouldn't even give a (Redirected from...) message, cf [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal]] vs. [[Project:Community Portal]].
:::The Help namespace is for help with the interface/software, not project-specific stuff. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 16:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
::::I vote [[Transformers Wiki:Manual of Style]], since there seems to be a somewhat more 'instructive' element/tone to the documentation, moreso than just a guide. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

== Minor Edits? ==

How does one mark an edit as minor? Is this browser-dependent? I see no "minor edit" checkbox or button when I make edits.
[[User:207.31.229.4|207.31.229.4]] 16:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It said something about moving so go ahead and do it then. If you move it its not my problem though.([[User:159.83.4.150|159.83.4.150]] 23:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC))
:Only registered users can mark pages as minor edits. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 23:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

== Past Tension ==

Thanks for the official stylistic clarification, Robert. I'd previously written book/episode summaries in present tense, but seeing so many in past tense here, it appeared the standard was different. I should've stuck by my own, it seems.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 00:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

:There is no standard which has been discussed and agreed upon. We briefly discussed it somewhere in the last month or two, but I don't remember where that was, and it wasn't an "authoritative" discussion because it had too few people involved and no consensus was reached. I '''strongly''' prefer past tense for all fiction stuff. It makes no sense at all to me to write a character history in past tense but then write the summary of those same events in present tense in a different article. I also think, as I said before wherever that was, that present-tense summaries often, if not usually, sound unsophisticated, as if they were written by 10-year-olds. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

::I wish I could give a clearly delineated reason for it, but episode and issue summaries in past tense sound really, really strange and off to me. It fits with the immediacy of watching the events unfold before you. The selectively edited nature of character histories doesn't need that.
::Anyways, the Help edits I made reflect what seemed to be the most common standards used on the pages that are already up. I had no idea there was any debate over it. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 06:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm with Rob on this one - there's just a really strange "sound" to a past tense summary of an issue or episode to me. It makes sense that our character articles should be written in past tense, since we write them "in-universe" as if they're about real characters (a la the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, for example), since when you write a biography about a real person, you write it in the past tense, because, naturally, it has already happened. But when it comes to single episodes or issues, we single them out by title in their very namespace, thereby openly acknowledging that they are individual pieces of fiction, rather than a piece of "real" history. And when you summarize a work of fiction, the present tense is... well, it's just the ''standard''. The work exists in a sort of (to steal a term from Wikipedia) "perpetual present tense"; the work "comes alive" as you read it - as Rob says, the present tense conveys that immediacy as the events are unfolding in front of you. Well, that's my two cents, anyway. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 23:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
::::Chris has pretty much put his finger on it, Steve. The literary standard for summarizing a work of fiction is to put it in the present tense, since the timeframe of the events, within the context of that isolated work of fiction, never changes. (Naturally, any events that take place in the past relative to the story are described in past tense.) Past tense in character histories makes sense because we're not describing a single work of fiction--a single episode or issue--but an entire story which has already occurred in a character's "lifetime", as it were. Using present tense sounds unsophisticated to me when it's used within a narrative itself, unless it's obviously a stylistic choice. In those cases, present tense works for play-by-play commentary and stage directions, but sounds weird otherwise. Naturally, narrative or summaries switching haphazardly between past and present tense is Bad Form™.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 03:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'm gonna fourth this. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
:::::That's pretty much my understanding of it as well. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no meaningful difference between "the story of this guy's life" and "the story of a few days in a bunch of people's lives". They are both stories. They both involve many characters. They are both written in-universe on this site, not as if they are mere stories, so they are equally "historical". They both "already happened" unless there is no more-recent story. The interconnected stories that make up a character's history ''are'' a single work of fiction, frequently by design and at the least by our interpretation of them.

I find such dissonance in the notion of mixing the tenses that if we declare story pages to be present tense I would recommend we switch all the character pages to match them. It's absurd that a paragraph about, say, Dinobot's soliloquy at the beginning of "Code of Hero" (a scene where a focus on one particular character is appropriate) couldn't be used, verbatim, in both his article and the episode's article. You guys are suggesting that one or the other won't feel right unless a few words and grammatical structures are changed first, even though both paragraphs serve exactly the same purpose: telling the reader about what happened in that room at that time.

I can find statements on several websites saying, essentially, "historical events should be written in past tense, fictional events in (literary) present tense". Except in a tiny minority of "meta" pages, our wiki treats all fictional events as true, historical events, regardless of which type of page they are described on. Character pages are biographies of people treated as real. Story pages are summaries of events treated as real. Regardless of which tense we choose, there is no justification for choosing ''both''.

Anyway, that will be my last attempt to talk you into consistency. It looks as if I'm going to be heavily outvoted and I will, of course, go along with the consensus even if you are all poo-poo heads. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 01:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

== Italics and Punctuation ==

So, which of the following rules should we adopt?
# Punctuation marks are printed in the same style or font of type as the word, letter, character, or symbol immediately preceding them. (Chicago Manual of Style, Fourteenth Edition.) E.g., "I was very ''excited!'' Weren't you?"
# All punctuation marks should appear in the same font — roman or italic — as the main or surrounding text, except for punctuation that belongs to a title or an exclamation in a different font. (Chicago Manual of Style, Fifteenth Edition.) E.g., "I was very ''excited''! Weren't you?"
(Note the difference in how the exclamation mark is rendered in the examples.) I prefer option 1. Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 15:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:I can't think of any reason to adopt either of them. This isn't a big enough deal that it needs to be encoded into our style guide. The one that looks best to be varies from case to case, mainly with what type of punctuation we're talking about. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
::I'd be reasonably comfortable with specifically saying, "Both are acceptable." I'm uncomfortable with us having no position whatsoever. [[User:JW|JW]] 12:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I think #1 looks ''vastly'' better with tall punctuation. I didn't mention anything because I didn't think it was important enough to lay down a rule. But then Interrobang bitched me out for my usage, so I guess we'd better decide this one way or t'other. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't think the example brings up the usage in which this rule will actually be relevant to the Wiki. That is, when proper noun titles of things are italicized, not common words in sentences. We have a hell of a lot more comic book issue titles than we do italics-for-emphasis. What "looks best" depends on which of those examples we're talking about. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
::::I think I was just getting annoyed by the inclusion of punctuation into italics for titles, which you probably didn't do. If not, sorry. I don't particularly care for cases like "''excited!''", but things like "''Beast Machines,''" is stupid and defeats ''the point'' of the italics. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, I do that. Like I said, I default to whatever looks best to me. I think I can see your point - that it technically makes it seem like the comma is part of the "Beast Machines" title - but I honestly don't think it would cause any ACTUAL confusion. Exclamation points and question marks are iffier, since there ARE titles that properly end with them. But I suppose my response there is to construct the sentence in a way that avoids the issue. Meh. I'm comfortable with whatever rule people want to establish. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::'''things like "''Beast Machines,''" is stupid and defeats ''the point'' of the italics.'''
:::::However, that's correct usage according to CMOS14, which is my preference. The logic behind that is to empower the renderer to correctly tuck the comma under the overhang of the preceding letter.
:::::As I said, I'm content to pick CMOS14, CMOS15, or to explictly say "we have no rule". I prefer CMOS14. [[User:JW|JW]] 22:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

::::::Italics are used for two different cases, emphasis and titles. In the rare cases we use italics are used for emphasis, the punctuation should match, as the punctuation is usually related to the emphasis. Plus, "''l''!" looks horrible. Punctuation after, but not part of, a title is not related to the title, and looks best in the main format; it also keeps confusion on what is and isn't part of the title.--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::::So CMoS15 for titles, and CMoS14 for everything else? That sounds good to me, and it looks like there's at least a halfhearted consensus so far. Anyone object to enshrining that in the style guide? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::::While I'm not rampantly enthusiastic, I can live with that. [[User:JW|JW]] 02:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I have a mild objection to specifying this at all, either way. I especially have an objection to specifying it in a highly-prescriptivist way such as citing a specific edition of an arbitrary style manual. If the formatting of punctuation really needs to be addressed at all, I would want it to be discussed in terms of meaning and asthetics: "When bolding or italicizing a title, make sure to include or exclude punctuation appropriately to make it clear what is part of the title and what isn't; when bolding or italicizing for emphasis, do whatever looks best." But I would think that is common sense instruction hardly worth spelling out. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::''"I have a mild objection to specifying this at all, either way."'' I don't think you've specified ''why'' you have an objection. You clearly don't object to the ''whole'' style guide, so . . . ?
:::::::::''"But I would think that is common sense instruction hardly worth spelling out."'' Given that we have editors on this wiki who disagree, and given that two different editions of CMOS disagree, there is evidently no "common sense" rule. [[User:JW|JW]] 03:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Steve-o, I'm pretty sure he was bring up the manuls is because it was easier to type. Anything in the style guide would spell it out. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 04:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty much in the same boat as Steve-o. I can't say I see the point in specifying any of this in a style guide. It seems really, really, ''really'' pedantic... and most people are gonna goddamn ignore it anyway. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:All I can say is, [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Transmetal&diff=153787&oldid=153730 I got bitched out for it,] with no policy to fall back on. If we're going to have editors who want to hound others with edits as pedantic as this, then apparently it matters to establish this kind of thing. For what it's worth, the strongest emotion I've seen come out of this discussion is apathy, which I agree with more than anything. If this Talk page can be used from here on as evidence for the "seriously, un-bunch your damn panties" position, then we've accomplished as much as if we'd changed the style guide. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::I was half-joking. You know this, yes? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 06:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
:::How much of a joke was it if you called it out in comments and spent the time to "correct" it? Clearly it matters to you enough to try to impose your own method and make people stop doing what you don't like. Which is what the style guide is ultimately for, so here we are. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 07:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::::What he said, with a side order of "and Interrobang and I happen to disagree over the correct style, so . . . " [[User:JW|JW]] 12:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
::::Fair enough. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to try to write something which will make as many people as possible happy. Let me know what you think. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

== [[Template:Move]] ==

Should we have that template on the page or remove it?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 19:41, 19 October 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Commercial

2009-10-16T00:45:54Z

Dr L: /* It has been suggested this article should be split into subpages and by franchise (i.e., Commercial/Beast Wars, etc.) */ new section

== Only fictional appearance in commerical? ==

''"These spots were the only American animation produced for dozens of characters from the toyline's later years."'' Hmm, are there any cases where a TV commerical is the only fictional appearance ''of any kind'' for a character? Some of the Micromasters, perhaps? [[User:JW|JW]] 17:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
:The MM Combiners, yeah, and possibly one or two of the Mega/Ultra Pretenders. Not sure about the Action Masters -- the tail end of the US comics and Spotlight: Arcee might've covered them all. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 17:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

== Split? ==
This page is already getting huge, and the post-G1 stuff is barely started. Considering there's probably a boatload of UT commercials, would it make sense to split the page up by franchise? It could then be added to the franchise navigation links for each major franchise. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

== Cybertron commercials ==

I seem to remember a commercial where a kid sort of dressed in an Autobot uniform runs up to a large door. He unlocks it with an Optimus Prime Cyber Planet Key prop. I think the actor was a guest at [[BotCon 2005]]. Of course our BotCon 2005 page is pretty half-ass at the moment so we can't even check our own info. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

== Robots in Disguise narrator ==

Does anyone else think the narrator for the RID commercials (all but the first version of Prime/Magnus) sounds like Neil Kaplan? I think it is him, but I'm not certain enough to put it on the page. Would e-mailing him be sufficient for confirming it? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:45, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

== 2007 Film TV spot ==

Old, yeah, but I was bored. Browsing through my computer, found a TV spot that features instrumental portions of Linkin Park's "What I've Done". Opens up with Ron's "My son here - buy his first car" voice-over, cut to Bobby's "Driver don't pick the car" line; 'Bee going out to send the signal; "Some will come to defend us"; 'Bee fully transforming sequence on defending the teens before cutting to post Barricade fight; "Most will come to destroy us"; Scorponok's money shot of leaping out of the desert; Starscream flipping onto Hoover Dam; pilots scrambling to F-22; Autobots' arrival; Sam's "We have to get into the car" over a quick montage alongside Epps' "Bring it!" before finally ending with Bonecrusher crashing into the bus. ...that was a mouthful. Add it in? Can't find it on YouTube anymore, so I'm just glad to have saved it when I found it back then. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 14:59, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

:That sounds like it could be the 2nd full trailer. However, there's a lot of scenes earlier in that trailer which aren't in your description. That has me intrigued. If the commercial you have doesn't match anything listed, then by all means add it in! I want to make our list of commercials the most complete it can be. The commercial can be uploaded to my YouTube account, if you'd like, so that we have a copy to link to. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 23:24, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
::Not the 2nd full trailer. If you're the same Tigerpaw back from Murphy's boards with all the nifty TV spots from 2007, you might have the original copy. :) The one I have is low quality that might suffer compression issues if I try to upload to YouTube - fact being that I got it from YouTube using one of those online converters in the first place. http://megaupload.com/?d=WHW4UAPW --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:01, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
:::I am not the Tigerpaw from Murphy's board so I unfortunately don't have the original clip. I don't think I ever registered there. I am, however, the same Tigerpaw28 who frequents the Allspark, has an account at TFW2005 and who used to post to a.t.t.
:::I see what you mean about the compression being an issue. I'll try and see if I can't find a copy of this somewhere online. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:37, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Good luck on the search. It's been so long. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 13:55, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::And things get even more interesting. I started checking for the post the video was found in on Murphy's boards. I found a poster named TigerClaw but no post for a video matching yours. I then went and compared it to Destiny and it turns out they're nearly the same. Yours has a different soundtracking with "What I've Done" being used. It also says "Coming Soon" at the end instead of "July 4th". I'm really wondering about this commercial now. The "Coming Soon" just seems completely out of place, since "What I've Done" wasn't used in the commercial until later on. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:22, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::(That's where my name confusion came in! XD) Hmm... Good point. I saw it on TV once some time before US release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 20:00, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, I've come to a wall with my searching. I can't find any mention of it at Murphy's board. Perhaps you might be able find it Lonegamer? I've come up empty on YouTube as well. I'm still hunting through some Google results but it's not looking good. I still can't figure out where the commercial fits into the promotional scheme. All of the known commercials use a specific date (including "Destiny") as opposed to the general 'Coming Soon'. None of them use "What I've Done" in their soundtrack. I'd be inclined to think it was some sort of oddball mini-trailer, if you hadn't mentioned seeing it on TV. I don't suppose you've remembered anything else about where or when you saw it?

:::::::My searching has not been completely in vain. YouTube searching led me to a bunch of commercials that aren't on the page. A couple Now Playings, "Has transformed America", #1 Movie in America, IMAX, and several DVD spots can be found at [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johndoe4880&view=videos] or [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7sSGO8rDbU]. I found out about couple other things through the Live Action Movie Blog and Murphy's board. With all this stuff, I don't know whether to kiss you or curse you. :-D--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:24, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I'd rather not be cursed. ;) As for the "What I've Done" with "Coming Soon" TV spot, all I remember was that I saw it on TV just once (I think Comedy Central; my sister was watching The Daily Show at the time) and digging around YouTube resulted that before it disappeared. I'm thinking it might've been one of those that slipped by the marketing teams. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:36, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm going to be moving the entry for this out of the commented area and into the page proper tomorrow (7/14), if you or someone else doesn't beat me to it. I found a reference to it on the [http://transformerslive.blogspot.com/2007/06/transformers-tv-spot-13-army.html Transformers Live Action Movie Blog], so at least we have a second source on it. I sent a PM to TigerClaw over at Murphy's board to see if he had any other info or could send me the original clip. Unfortunately, I've yet to get a response from him since sending the PM last Tuesday. At least the clip you sent me actually ended up looking pretty good on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unz7hIHoDQg

:::::::::I'm also failing to get a response from ekocher over at TFW to my request to get his recording of the Shrek the Third exclusive trailer for the first film. That's only been since Thursday. You wouldn't happened to have grabbed that from his YouTube account would you?--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:19, 14 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Hey, that turned not out too shabby! :D I was worried about the compression being screwed up even more if we put it back up on YouTube. As for ekocher on the Shrek exclusive, I'm not sure if I did get it back then. I'll have to dig through my external HDs to find it though. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:21, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF toy commercial! ==
[http://www.hasbro.com/monkeybartv/default.cfm?page=Entertainment/Videos/VideoSelect&aid=4139] Featuring original CGI animation of Prime and some non-Cullen voice. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:32, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:I found that on Monday along with several other first Movie toy commercials on Hasbro's site. I'll be adding those when I do the movie update. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 22:55, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Some new comercials were just uploaded about an hour ago. [http://vimeo.com/5191049][http://vimeo.com/5190871] [http://vimeo.com/5191049 ]

== Split Part 2 ==

Looking at this page... DAMN it's huge. I really think there's enough viable material to split it up by franchise, and add a commercial page to each relevant franchise's navigation box. Would this be a good idea, or would it lead to some disastrous unforeseen consequences, bringing doom and destruction to all? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 00:05, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
:I agree that there's enough material to split it up by franchise, and I like the idea of adding it to the navigation boxes. What did you have in mind for this page once we split off the franchises? I'd like to see this page function as a central hub to get to the other commercial pages and keep some sort of general history of Transformers advertising on it.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 13:26, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I was thinking of something much like that as well, with a list of links to the individual pages. It'd be a shame to lose the centralized nature of this page, which is almost certainly the most complete collection of Transformers commercials on the web. (Hear that, Google? I said THE MOST COMPLETE COLLECTION OF EVERY ALL TRANSFORMERS TELEVISION COMMERCIAL AD ADVERTISEMENTS! RIGHT HERE ON TFWIKI.NET, THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI! G1 REVENGE OF THE FALLEN ANIMATED!) Additionally, about a bazillion pages now link back here, and changing those links will be a long, monumental labor... better to have this page remain a relevant central hub and thus make fixing links a non-urgent task. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 13:42, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Totally agree with the most complete collection observation. I've made that my mission statement in regards to this page almost since I started editing it. And I think it has to be the most complete, as there are only a handful of U.S. items (Shrek the Third and International trailers for the 2007 movie, one ROTF tv spot, a Dinobot spot that only speaks of Grimlock, and various cartoon promos) that haven't been added and that I'm aware of. It occurred to me that there's a minor flaw in the franchise template plan. Namely, that Animorphs and Star Wars don't have templates but we do have commercial entries for them. Wouldn't be hard to find another way to work the links in, though. And not to derail the discussion, but did you intentionally remove the caption from the G1 Scorponok screencap Rob? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 20:29, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Tiger! I bring you, the one Japanese trailer for 2007 movie I've been able to snag. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C6B7KOO3 Quality's kinda questionable on both A/V, but they're somewhat decent enough. The Japanese subs pretty much reflect what the actors are saying, though. Includes a quick ad on the transforming pen that was part of their promo campaign. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 21:51, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Thanks Lonegamer! I found this on YouTube somewhere, but your upload is definitely better quality than that. Does this mean you don't have the Shrek The Third trailer? Or are you still looking? For the record, the Shrek the Third trailer is not the same as any other trailer, domestic or international. Hence, the need for that cellphone recording. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:07, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::Still digging, though I can't guarantee. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:36, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::''did you intentionally remove the caption from the G1 Scorponok screencap''
:::::Y'mean the Giant Decepticon Warrior one? Yes. It was unbearably weak and pointless. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 01:25, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::This is the one that I meant: "Who's this?" "I dunno." "He's ugly." "Let's <s>kill</s> destroy him!" Since I don't know what it's referencing, I'm not sure if that's the Giant Decepticon Warrior one or not. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:52, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

== Patches comercial ==

I just realized... in the animation of "Spike and friends!" the 'friends' are based on the kids in the live-action part of the commercial. I don't think I've ever seen another TF commercial do this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:25, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

==Superlink commercials and Galaxy Force demo==
Fantofan.jp has a few, although the videos are mostly .wmv format and quality can vary. Compounding those two is that Fantofan has their watermark at the bottom. http://www.fantofan.jp/sl-tvcm.htm Somewhat bright side are what seems to be TV Magazine ads for the toys (some might have watermarks).

On "Galaxy Force demo", again, provided by FantoFan.jp but the one on Youtube apparently exchanged the music for Lion's TF theme rather than the more appropriate Japanese song (whatever it might've been, probably), and video quality is, well, abysmal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpb0BDyLC4 Japanese text at the beginning says "New program - Transformers Galaxy Force - Special clip". --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:04, 17 July 2009 (EDT)

:Nice finds. I think I noticed the stuff on Fantofan before, but I had definitely forgot about it until you brought it up here. Thanks for that reminder. These clips will be quite helpful if anybody decides to tackle the Japanese commercials. I've started compiling a playlist for all the clips I can find on YouTube. I haven't rushed to do anything with them because I'd need translation help. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:29, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

==UK ROTF BK spot==
Is this worth adding? I only saw it once but it was a UK ad for a Transformers themed meal Burger King was selling. It's set in two guy's kitchen where one is eating Burger King. The other comes in and asks where his food went, to which the eating guy hammily lies that the washing machine transformed and ate it. As the machine enters spin cycle, the guy wails that it's going to transform again.--[[Special:Contributions/86.11.29.95|86.11.29.95]] 05:59, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
:Thanks for the heads up! Is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZUjIr0kdB0 this] it? If so, it's definitely worth adding. There's German and Spanish dubbed versions of it on YouTube as well. While we're currently focusing on U.S./Canadian spots (which reminds me, I need to add "Find YTV promos" to my to do list. And start a to do list.), eventually I would like to see more international spots added. Especially Japanese and British G1 spots. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:11, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

==Underoos Commercial==

Should an entry for this [http://www.retrostatic.com/videos/p803_sectionid/6/p803_fileid/398/p803_js_on/1 Underoos commercial] be added to the page? While it features a Transformers licensed product, that product is only featured for a few seconds of the commercial. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:14, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

== It has been suggested this article should be split into subpages and by franchise (i.e., Commercial/Beast Wars, etc.) ==

Go ahead and split the page. I won't stop anyone or oppose the pages being split into subpages and by franchise.([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 20:45, 15 October 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Crown

2009-10-11T01:18:46Z

Dr L:

I like this page - I don't see why it shouldn't exist. It has fiction, it has a toy, we've made pages for less. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 01:54, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
:It would be better as a page on Transformer crowns in general, since Grimlock also wore one (which is apparently going to be sold with one version of the Masterpiece toy). Plus the Unicron Trilogy Starscream had one in ''Cybertron''... I wouldn't be surprised if even more examples appeared once we made a place for them.
:Incidentally, though, as much as I'm flattered by my art getting referenced, the complete lack of a crown kind of makes it irrelevant on this page.
:- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:51, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC, the ''Cybertron'' crown was specifically dubbed the "Decepticon Crown of Leadership" on Supreme Starscream's packaging, which, as a distinctly-named object, should mean that it warrants its own separate page... oh, hrm. I just dug the packaging out, and it's actually capitalized as "DECEPTICON crown of leadership". I'm, uh, not sure what to make of that. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 04:17, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Isn't all-caps-ing their trademarked terms in the packaging text pretty much Hasbro's standard procedure? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 05:23, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, but I was puzzled by the treatment of "crown of leadership" as a common noun, versus the proper-noun "Matrix of Leadership"... like, it's '''a''' crown of leadership rather than '''the''' Crown of Leadership? Looking over the packaging again, the only feature-related text treated as a proper noun is "Energon" in "Energon blade" and "Null Ray" in "Null Ray cannon", so... I dunno. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 15:23, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, going by the cartoon, it certainly wasn't ''the'' Crown of Leadership. It was just a random thing that appeared out of thin air when Starscream became a giant, and he basically thought "hey cool, I think I'll wear that!" It certainly didn't denote leadership of the Decepticons, which Starscream never even had. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 23:55, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

::I think the page should be about various crown instead focus only on Screamer's. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 06:26, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
:::I'm a bit late to this party, but allow me to add my vote for the inclusion of Grimlock's crown here, as well.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 17:17, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

:I think the subject has been covered to some degree on the [[Transformer clothing]] article. That being said, since there were actually TF toys that include crowns, a separate article is potentially warranted. Just as long as we police it enough to keep people from making articles for capes, hats, etc. - so far, no TF toys have included those items. The fact that there's a Decepticon "crown of leadership" in the UT is probably rationale enough to keep this article up, though. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:05, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
::The Darth Vader Death Star came with a cloth cape. I don't think that makes a "Cape" article at ALL justified, but I figured I'd throw that out there. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
:::There's a Starscream figure or two that includes a cape and shoulder pads. I don't see why we need this article separate from the clothing article, which should include a toy section at the bottom. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 01:27, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
What about Grimlock's crown from the Marvel comics? Could that be further justification for keeping it around? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:04, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
:The page has potential but needs quite the reworking before it's up to standards, IMO. And yeah, Grimlock's crown, and any other crowns in TF fiction, should be brought up. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:20, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

Should we keep this page or delete it?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 21:18, 10 October 2009 (EDT))

Crown

2009-10-10T22:46:03Z

Dr L: can someone get rid of this page?

{{Speedy|Pointless}}
:''Starscream's Crown is an object from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[Continuity family|continuity family]].''

Starscream's crown was the one he wore at his coronation in The Transformers: the Movie, along with a long cape. Though it featured for but a brief appearance, like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[Energon-axe]], it caught on as a popular item in the fandom. As such, it has been referenced again and again.

==Fiction==
===Cartoon continuity===
At the coronation of Starscream as leader of the Decepticons, he wore a cape and was crowned by [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]]. This was seconds before [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] crashed in with his troops and disintegrate Starscream with a blast from his cannon mode. The crown was the only thing to remain intact, toppling down the stars of the stage before being crushed under the foot of Galvatron. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie|The Transformers: The Movie}}

[[Image:SSBQ.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Starscream got too close to the Decepticon BBQ.]]
Unusual (though appropriate for the pompous Starscream), as Transformers don't tend to wear clothes. It was uncertain if his garb was merely for the occasion or if he intended to walk around with that stuff on all the time.

{{-}}

===''Genesis: The Art of Transformers''===
{{note|As an art-book concerned more with portraiture than storytelling, ''[[Genesis: The Art of Transformers|Genesis]]'' is of dubious relevance as a source of fiction. However, a picture of [[Machine Wars]] Starscream does suggest events outside itself. [[Matt Kuphaldt|The artist]] intended it to be a sequel to [http://www.spektakle.com/portfolio/tf/tf_fan_starscream.html a piece of his fanart.]}}
[[Image:StarscreamMW Genesis.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Bringing a cannon to a [[Canon|canon]]-fight.]]
Machine Wars Starscream stood on the dais where he was once crowned leader of the Decepticons, which had since begun glowing with the energy of Cybertron's new golden age. As before, he wore a purple cape, but this time he brandished the vanquished Galvatron's torn-off cannon.
{{-}}
==Merchandise==
* '''Starscream''' (2002)

: Originally a chase figure in Japan, this remold of the regular figure includes a cape, newly molded limbs, and a head with the crown as seen in the movie.

* '''Starscream''' (2002)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MegaSCF TF 07'''

[[Image:Mega SCF Starscream.jpg|right|120px|thumb|Just keep it away from any [[Galvatron (G1)|reformatted megalomaniacs]].]]
:Starscream is a highly articulated, non-transforming action figure. He comes with removable shoulder pads and cloak. He has a choice of normal head or a head with a crown. He also includes extra hands, one of which holds Megatron in gun mode.

* '''Coronation Starscream''' (Diamond Select, 2008)

[[Image:Coronation statue.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Coronation Starscream? This is [[Main Page|bad comedy]].]]
:Released by Diamond Select Toys in 2008, Coronation Starscream was an exclusive to on-line retailer Action Figure Xpress. He was sculpted by [[Mark Wong]] of [[Art Asylum]] and limited to 600 pieces. It features Starscream decked out in the royal crown, cape, and big honkin' shoulder pads he wore (albeit briefly) in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.
{{-}}
==Trivia==
The 2005 Supreme class [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] toy from the [[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]] line comes with his own crown as a homage to his G1 counterpart. It is pretty much a dead ringer for the original.

Talk:Revenge (G1)

2009-10-10T22:35:00Z

Dr L: read the first part of the page

This article is painful in how wrong the formatting is. I also don't like the name - was the ship ever given a name in any fiction or production material? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
:On ATT, it seems to be consistently called the "Decepticon mothership". No idea whether anybody actually calls it that in a canon resource, though. - [[User:RolonBolon|RolonBolon]] 03:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
::Galvatron calls it "the mothership" in Rebirth. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 12:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
:::Doesn't it also get called the "flagship" at some point? I could be confusing that with the Autobot flagship in [[Dark Awakening]], though. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe the title should be changed to Galvatron's Mothership.
:I would suggest simply "Mothership" myself, although that may be a bit vague. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
::You see this cat Galvatron's ship is a bad mother- -[[User:LV|LV]] 21:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
::"Decepticon Mothership" sounds best to me. Well, actually, "Decepticon Flagship" sounds super-best to me, but I can't remember where I heard that (if at all), so it doesn't count. Yet. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be shocked to learn Japan didn't give this thing a proper noun name. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
:Maybe it's the Galvaburg I! -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/decepticon.html Floro Dery's site calls it the "Decepticon spaceship"]. Perhaps we should combine and call it the Decepticon Mothership? Like Jackpot, I prefer "Decepticon Flagship", but since it was never called that, we can't use it. What do you guys think? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So, have we decided on a name for this ship yet? Galvatron's ship is really more of a description, and to my knowledge, was never referred to as such in fiction. I really hate 'Galvatron's ship'. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:But a description is all we have. We can't just [[Big Red|make up a name]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

::What about "mothership," mentioned above? That WAS used in the fiction, and it sounds a little better than just "ship." And keeping the "Galvatron's" or changing it to "Decepticon" would still be a useful clarification. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::I vote for "the mothership" because of the myriad caption possibilities opened thereby. -[[User:LV|LV]] 18:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::I think "the mothership" is too vague. "Galvatron's mothership" would be acceptable to me. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 19:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'm sick of your cold calculations. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::: DECEPTICON MOTHERSHIP! --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::::"Decepticon mothership" is even LESS descriptive than "Galvatron's mothership". The whole problem is that the ship doesn't have a name and that makes it hard to talk about. Thus, making our "name" for it ''less'' specific is a bad idea. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

:::"Decepticons, return to the mothership!" - Galvy, Rebirth p1 (as jackpot said, Mothership '''has''' to be in there somewhere.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, i want to point out aht during Rebirth? The decepticons board through the jet exhaust port- that then fires up in the next shot. (this is hilarious, as is much of rebirth.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:Haha, I forgot about that. Didn't the Autobot shuttle fly down the manhole that we saw Scourge and co use earlier? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 15:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
:There's a precedent for that. Sometimes Autobots enter [[All-Terrain Turbo-Transport]]s through a door in the VTOL-jetted airstream. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
== Page title ==
What ''wiki guidelines'' cause us to capitalize improper nouns? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

== Naming ==

Hey wait. Isn't this article should be named The Revenge?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 22:46, 9 October 2009 (EDT))
:Also, what's the source for it being named ''the Revenge''? -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 23:21, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

The Source of the ship being named The Revenge is all Transformers Comics, Books, Cartoon Series and every Transformers related materials you could find.([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 18:01, 10 October 2009 (EDT))
:You need to be a little more specific. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:07, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
:I have never once heard the ship referred to as the Revenge. Give a source [[User:Eire]] 23.12 Oct 10 09 (UTC)

Read this sentence: The Revenge is a mighty warship granted to Galvatron by Unicron. It has a pretty good success rate of blowing up Autobot shuttles. ([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 18:35, 10 October 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Revenge (G1)

2009-10-10T22:01:40Z

Dr L: /* Naming */

User talk:Suki Brits

2009-10-10T21:52:56Z

Dr L: /* Question */

OH MY GOD YOU'RE REALLY NEALE DAVIDSON!!!! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper X]] 05:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[[User talk:Suki Brits/2006|2006 Archives]]

[[User talk:Suki Brits/2007|2007 Archives]]

== Log-in Problem ==

Hi Suki Brits,
I log-in, go to edit a page and I get this message:
''Have you forgotten to log in? A user name helps you track your contributions and communicate with other users. If you don't log in, your IP address will show up in the page history.''
I use Firefox as my browser and I was hoping you tell me how to fix this problem.
[[User:69.19.14.19|69.19.14.19]] 18:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:I left a response on your [[User_talk:69.19.14.19|talk page]], which I'm linking to here in case you actually have a rotating IP address and aren't automatically informed. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 05:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Image Uploading ==

Hi,

I'm having problems with image uploading. When I use the toolbar to upload I can browse, select and rename a file just fine, but when I get to the caption/thumbnail window nothing works (size slider, right/left indicator) and the Upload Image button doesn't work at all. Am I the only person with these problems? I'm using Firefox 2.0 on a Mac. I tried to upload an image yesterday, but I couldn't find it on the Upload Log.

Thanks for any help or suggestions. I'm going over to the Help section to see if I'm doing something wrong.--[[User:Suzyprime|Suzyprime]] 13:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks for your help. I will try your suggestion.--[[User:Suzyprime|Suzyprime]] 13:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

== Act Fast, Act Now ==

[[User:Giant_MonkeyMen_Are_Coming_2_Destroy_The_World_And_I_Think_They_Like|Two for the price of one.]] [[User:Giant_MonkeyMen_R_Coming_2_Destroy_The_World_%26_I_Think_They_Like_Pie_So_We_Better_Start_Baking_To_Appease_Them|Operators are standing by.]] (Feel free to deny recognition afterward.)--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
==Head wars==
Please visit the [[Talk:Megatron (Movie)]] page, read the head wars discussion, and give me your answer. Thank you. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 19:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

==Hmmm.==
I don't think you should tell jokes in a computer encyclopedia like here. [[User:Black rhino ranger|Black rhino ranger]] 16:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
: [[Talk:Main_Page|Ahem.]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:Oh God, we've got a live one.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
One what? [[User:Black rhino ranger|Black rhino ranger]] 11:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:One person who thinks they can show up out of nowhere and tell all the long-time contributors to this wiki that they're doing it wrong. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== Yeah, I'm spamming ==

Canvassing a few talkpages here so we can get folks to weigh in and finalize the potential Wiki image policy. Your input would be appreciated at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Images]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Stub-striking Sock Puppets? ==

You already gave [[User:202.163.208.50|one person]] a time-out for deleting random stuff from pages. It seems we have [[User talk:202.163.208.50|one]] or [[User talk:222.126.100.146|two]] other IPs exhibiting similar behavior. Or it could be one guy with a dynamic IP, I guess.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
::''De nada'', happy to be of help.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
:::[[User talk:202.163.208.50|Someone's]] still at it. Didn't learn from the one-day vacation, it seems.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 07:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Burgeoning Pest ==

[[Special:Contributions/99.164.38.106|Someone new]] is starting to make a nuisance of him/herself. Perhaps not worth action yet, but worth watching just in case, I think.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

== Account exists but it doesn't ==

Hi. This is actually [[User:Aurax|Aurax]], but in my inactivity here (spanning quite some time, as I look now), my account had gone inactive or had some other wire disconnected. Trying to login with the credentials I know to be correct, and I'm notified that the [[User:Aurax|username Aurax]] doesn't exist. If I attempt to create the account again, I'm given a different error message that looks like a holdover from Wikia error scripts. If this is something that will be healed following the crash, I'm fine with that. I just couldn't find anything relating to this in discussion of the crash anywhere in the Damage Control or Community Portal areas. The email in my profile is good if you want to get in touch, or I'll keep checking back here and on my page. [[Special:Contributions/71.191.107.74|71.191.107.74]] 01:04, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:You should be able to recreate this by using the ''exact'' same verification as your old Wikia account. If it doesn't match, it should prevent you from grabbing the username.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:08, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
::I just went back to Teletraan I to check my account there. I'm using the same credentials on both sites (and I've been equally as inactive over there, so it wouldn't have changed after the split). [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] aka [[Special:Contributions/71.191.107.74|71.191.107.74]] 02:58, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== "Fixed" Monobook ==

[[Image:TFWiki-Monobookquotefixedunquote.png|thumb]]
{{quote|...but also fixing some REALLY BAD DESIGN in Monobook. why the hell is everything absolutely positioned?|You, [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&diff=309383&oldid=207765 in making the changes that borked Monobook}}
See the results in the image on the right. I've checked, it's the changes from absolute to relative that did it, and have patched my user CSS accordingly. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, whoops, my bad. I forgot that we still have plain Monobook installed, using a different file. I've moved the changes to a Monacobook specific CSS file now. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 15:02, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

== rel=nofollow ==

Pursuant to discussion @ [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Affiliate_sites|Affiliate Sites]] about sites {{SITENAME_SHORT}} frequently links to, I'm requesting that rel=nofollow be disabled for the following sites:
* http://www.ntfa.net
* http://www.tfu.info
* http://www.wookieepedia.com
* http://www.yojoe.com
These are the sites supported by [[Template:External]]. Please note that rel=nofollow '''had''' been disabled for Wookieepedia prior to the Bookworm crash-- it was apparently accidentally ''re''-set at some point either during our recovery or the subsequent move. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:20, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

== Question ==
Just one simple question. Why you built a second Transformers Wiki website? Isn't having one Teletran-1 the Transformers wiki at Wikia is good enough? ([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 20:00, 15 September 2009 (EDT))
:[[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]] & [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]] --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:06, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

Another question. Why would anyone split the [[Starscream (G1)]] page?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 17:52, 10 October 2009 (EDT))

Template talk:Picsneeded

2009-10-10T03:10:52Z

Dr L:

Why is this putting a "messagebox templates" category in any article the template is used in? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:AND "Templates" Categories. This is not good. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
::Whoever wrote the template -- probably Derik -- simply forgot to put "noinclude" tags around the template's own categories. It should be fixed now. I also "touched" all the articles that transclude the template to clear them out of the categories. The articles themselves were fixed as soon as the template was, but the category page still lists them until the articles are refreshed. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 14:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey wait isn't the message should be pronounced "Okay Reflector. Lets see what you can see."?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 23:10, 9 October 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Revenge (G1)

2009-10-10T02:46:01Z

Dr L: /* Naming */ new section

Talk:Starscream (G1)

2009-10-09T22:37:07Z

Dr L: /* It has been suggested this article should be split into Starscream (G1) and Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity. */ new section

==MP Starscream==
No slight upon you, Walky, but you are wrong, and the photo you have is a bad photo. The F-15E (the model Starscream is based upon, I accidently typed D in error) has only ever had one colour throughout its existence, "Gunship Grey". Its color code (issued by the government in the current FS595B) is FS 36118, and is used only many planes. It is famous for being currently used on the B-52 Stratofortress and the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber. Have you seen any green bombers or stealth bombers in the last decade?

The F-15E is not green like MP SS at all. Somebody at TakaraTomy looked at the bad or doctored photos you looked at and concluded those are the accurate colours, or they wanted to do something different.

Additional Trivia: I recall somebody finding pics of early F-15s that Classics Starscream's colour scheme was based upon. Amusingly, those photos have been doctored. The early F-15s were painted sky blue, because they were to fly around the blue skies of California. Additionally, the prototypes were also sky blue with bright orange in the same patterns as Classics Starscream's reds. For some reason the US Air Force doctored these photos to make the F-15s look more like later models, and so Don Figueroa or somebody at Hasbro based SS's deco on these doctored photos (thankfully).

Oh, your revert also wiped out whatever else I said not relating to the MP. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
: I'd like to note that MP Starscream photographs way more green than he is in person. --[[User:68.75.18.107|68.75.18.107]] 22:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

:: Yeah, but still the wrong colours, and I think it bears noting. If anybody is wondering, there is no real reason why MP Skywarp is mostly black with little purple on his hull in fighter mode, either, since last I checked, they never painted F-15s black. They did with F-14s and F-16s, as I recall. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

==Second in Command==
Is Starscream really the second in command though? I mean, he certainly takes over whenever Megs is incapacitated, but I don't believe that Megatron ever gave him control over a friggin' Planet.

So what I'm suggesting here is that Shockwave is the actual second-in-command, not Starscream. Unless it is actually written somewhere that Starscream IS the second in command. In which case my comment is cheerfully withdrawn.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 23:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Point.
Maybe I should have said "Second in Command of the Forces on Earth". Also, when Megatron fell in the movie, it was He, and not Shockwave, who took command. But you're right, I'm not sure if it is ever actually stated, or in fact correct.
:Writer's decision maybe,since Shockwave later got crushed under a falling ceiling. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 22:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
----
Yeah, Everyone assumes that Ol' Mr. Screamy is the second in command, but I'm pretty sure that that is only based on the fact that he gets the most screen time (as he should, because he's the best Decepticon).

Also, didn't he get the title of Leadership because he beat the ever loving crap out of all the other Decepticons?--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 00:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we never see Starscream enter that battle, its just we see them arguing over it, and then when we're back on Cybertron, Starscream is the victor, thou we never even saw him make his stake in the previous scene. Sounds more like he waited for everyone else to beat the ever loving poop out of each other, then beat the remaining love out of an already injured candidate... G1 Cartoon Starscream never did anything that didn't make him look like an fool. And his voice never helped. However, Energon and Galaxy Force Starscreams. Particually Galaxy Force. You can see he's planning it all out carefully, trying to wait until Master Megatron slips just enough for him to take over. And He could do so too. Never seen what Starscream was like in the comics though. How was he there?

----
Considerably whinier then he was in the G1 cartoon. Though he DID attain near-Godhood for a brief time (thanks to the vast powers of the Underbase), during which time he pretty well destroyed both sides of the war. Then he got greedy, took more power and it blew him up. Inexplicably, despite being pivotal in the near extinction of his own race, Megatron decided to revive Starscream with Pretender technology.

Meg's never was very bright.
--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 00:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Not quite as dim as G1-Season 3 Galvatron.
"Look! A Ghost!" <Bang Bang>
"Look! A School Girl!" <Bang Bang>
"Look! My Foot!" <Bang Bang, followed by screaming>

I '''hate''' it when I forget to check the minor edit box. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 19:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
:Yeah, I though you had rewritten the Titanium section, which I wouldn't haved minded as my description of his transforming WW toy is abit crap. Have I forgotten any G1 Starscream toys there? I think there was a Legends release of the Pretender inner robot, but bah, I don't have enough to say about. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 19:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
::The Pretender Starscream section already mentions the Legends release; I expanded it to match Bumblebee's entry. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 19:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
::: The Legends release should be given its own headers, as it was a separate release in America. In theory, you should be able to scroll down through the toy list and see every toy release in bold. (Well, minus foreign releases, since we tend to treat those as variants.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Okay, I added a Legends entry, but I don't think its worth the bother adding a new picture for it, since its the same as the Pretender inner bot. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

===Tech spec numbers===

Maddening! Pretender Starscream's TS numbers are clearly based on the correct ones, ie those given to Skywarp on the 1984 packaging. But AM Starscream, G2 Starscream and MW Starscream all use the ones on Starscream's 1984 packaging, ie the ones that actually belong to Thundercracker. Whyyyyy. -[[User:LV|LV]] 01:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
: *slap!* Don't you ''ever'' expect sense from tech specs again. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 01:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

==Spark==
I feel like Starscream's capsule bio shouldn't mention the indestructible spark, since there is no indication as to whether that is true in any specific continuity besides Beast Wars. It is ''maybe'' true in the G1 toon, but, also maybe he was actually just a ghost there, whatever that means. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
: I don't see why it's "maybe" true in the G1 toon. I mean, Beast Wars got the idea FROM the Starscream's ghost thing -- hell, it's a SEQUEL -- it's just that "indestructable spark" is the crazy science language for it. That's one of the most straightforward retcons in Transformers. It's definitely true in the G1 cartoon, it's definitely true in Beast Wars, and it's true in Dreamwave continuity, too, since everything was written to work with and lead up to Beast Wars. And it won't be PROVEN untrue anywhere else until a Starscream dies for good. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
::How well does it mesh with Marvel? --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 18:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
:::[[Image:ZombieScream1.jpg|200px]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
::::In fairness, it ''is'' pointed out that residual Underbase energy is responsible for animating him there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::In crazy inadmissable speculation land, I would credit the residual Underbase energy for giving him a mutant indestructable spark in the first place. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Heck, everyone was pretty invincible there. Blow 'em and up and you just had to put their bodies to bring them back to life. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

==Generation 2==
There's mention of Jhiaxus controlling the Warworld, and while it's been awhile since I've read G2, wasn't the warworld in Megatron's possession at the time? I don't seem to recall Jhiaxus ever controlling it.--[[User:UndeadScottsman|UndeadScottsman]] 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
: Starscream dumped Megatron and his Decepticons and wooed himself over to Jhiaxus' team by providing information that would get him the Warworld. Cybertronian Empire troops stormed the War World, kicked the Combaticons' asses, and then took it over. Starscream then doublecrossed Jhiaxus' troops and injested the Matrix. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

so does starscream make a better leader then Megatron

== Captions ==

Is this vandalism? [[User:Ajrand|Ajrand]] ([[User talk:Ajrand|Signalbook]])([[Special:Contributions/Ajrand|Logbook]]) 05:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
*On Teletraan I, we have a more laid back attitude to picture captions. We allow jokes, so long as they're relevant and in good taste. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 05:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
**Ah. I haven't spent much time on this wiki; I'm more used to Wookiepedia. Much less laid back, eh? Well, thanks [[User:Ajrand|Ajrand]] ([[User talk:Ajrand|Signalbook]])([[Special:Contributions/Ajrand|Logbook]]) 05:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

== An Homage in Hearts of Steel ==
I was curious about Starscream's "head fins" on his Hearts redesign. So I asked Guido, via Deviantart, if they were a homage to similar fins on Waspinator's robot head. The response came.

:"These fins are more an homage to Leozak from TF Victory", he said.

So, worthy of a trivia note? And if so, what page will get it? Starscream? Hearts of Steel? Leozak? --[[User:Terrocon Blot|Terrocon Blot]] 02:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

== Well, that's interesting. ==

Seems Starscream's "betrayal" in Megatron: Origin was anything but.[http://tformers.com/ig.php?mode=album&album=8503&dispsize=800&start=0] Between this and the little cabal turning to Starscream in Devastation I'm starting to like IDW Starscream. He keeps a lot of his G1 traits, but he's more of a serious contender than in other continuities.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]] 18:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

==Ulchtar==
Hey, wasn't this actually Denny O'Neil's name for the character? [[User:Chip|Chip]] 16:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

== Revoltech Development ==

I'm not sure how best to insert this info into the Toy/Merchandise section, so I'm putting it here for now, both in Hot Rod and Starscream's discussion pages.

Revoltech Yamaguchi versions of Hot Rod and Starscream are being developed for release on March 15. Since they're still in the production process, the final figures may differ from the photos shown [http://ga.sbcr.jp/mreport/008583/ here]. No other details are currently available.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 08:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

== Split? ==

This page is getting kind of big... perhaps splitting the toy section from the article much like what was done to Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee and Hot Rod would be something to do? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
:I agree. I've been thinking about that for a while now, and Screamer's toy section appears large enough to merit one. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 02:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
::And make another section for Starscream's toys? Or SEEKER toys? Because the latter would be hilariously large and never ending! >XD -- [[User:akindofdrifter|akindofdrifter]]

== Trivia section ==

FYI, the direct link to the Robot Masters Starscream image at TFU pops up a "TFU: Protected" filler image unless you cut and paste the URL instead.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

== Cartoon screencaps ==

Hey, who uploaded all of those G1 Starscream screencaps? You didn't name them in the correct format. You're supposed to use the title of the story/episode they are from somewhere in the name so, on the off chance the description is lost (such as when it was lost in the database crash) or when the description is wrong or inadequate, we have some idea of which episode or story its from if it isn't obvious from the image. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:07, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:Yeeah, that was me. Sorry about that.
:(and I'd do it again, too! Bwahahaha!)</small!> - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 08:28, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::And you would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling Aussies! --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:30, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::<nowiki>*</nowiki>shakes fist* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:39, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

==Kiss Players image==
This is an honest question. Since we link "Dirk Dinobot" for being NSFW, why don't we do the same for the image where Screamer possesses Atari? [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 20:39, 7 June 2009 (EDT)
:Because there's no exposed genitalia. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:54, 7 June 2009 (EDT)
:: Fair enough. Just curious. [[User:Antimatter|Antimatter]] 21:11, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

== Star Wars Reference ==

I wondered if this might be worth mentioning in the notes section:

There were a series of Star Wars books by John Whitman released in the late nineties for older children, which centered around an Imperial conspiracy to create an army of evil, ''immortal'' soldiers.

It was of course called, "Project Starscream".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Starscream

== It has been suggested this article should be split into Starscream (G1) and Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity. ==

Go ahead and split the page. I would like to see anyone try to split the page.([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 18:37, 9 October 2009 (EDT))

User talk:Suki Brits

2009-09-16T00:00:16Z

Dr L: /* Question */ new section

OH MY GOD YOU'RE REALLY NEALE DAVIDSON!!!! [[User:Hooper X|Hooper X]] 05:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[[User talk:Suki Brits/2006|2006 Archives]]

[[User talk:Suki Brits/2007|2007 Archives]]

== Log-in Problem ==

Hi Suki Brits,
I log-in, go to edit a page and I get this message:
''Have you forgotten to log in? A user name helps you track your contributions and communicate with other users. If you don't log in, your IP address will show up in the page history.''
I use Firefox as my browser and I was hoping you tell me how to fix this problem.
[[User:69.19.14.19|69.19.14.19]] 18:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:I left a response on your [[User_talk:69.19.14.19|talk page]], which I'm linking to here in case you actually have a rotating IP address and aren't automatically informed. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 05:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Image Uploading ==

Hi,

I'm having problems with image uploading. When I use the toolbar to upload I can browse, select and rename a file just fine, but when I get to the caption/thumbnail window nothing works (size slider, right/left indicator) and the Upload Image button doesn't work at all. Am I the only person with these problems? I'm using Firefox 2.0 on a Mac. I tried to upload an image yesterday, but I couldn't find it on the Upload Log.

Thanks for any help or suggestions. I'm going over to the Help section to see if I'm doing something wrong.--[[User:Suzyprime|Suzyprime]] 13:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks for your help. I will try your suggestion.--[[User:Suzyprime|Suzyprime]] 13:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

== Act Fast, Act Now ==

[[User:Giant_MonkeyMen_Are_Coming_2_Destroy_The_World_And_I_Think_They_Like|Two for the price of one.]] [[User:Giant_MonkeyMen_R_Coming_2_Destroy_The_World_%26_I_Think_They_Like_Pie_So_We_Better_Start_Baking_To_Appease_Them|Operators are standing by.]] (Feel free to deny recognition afterward.)--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
==Head wars==
Please visit the [[Talk:Megatron (Movie)]] page, read the head wars discussion, and give me your answer. Thank you. [[User:Inferno'sQueen|The Big Q]] 19:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

==Hmmm.==
I don't think you should tell jokes in a computer encyclopedia like here. [[User:Black rhino ranger|Black rhino ranger]] 16:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
: [[Talk:Main_Page|Ahem.]] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
:Oh God, we've got a live one.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
One what? [[User:Black rhino ranger|Black rhino ranger]] 11:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
:One person who thinks they can show up out of nowhere and tell all the long-time contributors to this wiki that they're doing it wrong. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

== Yeah, I'm spamming ==

Canvassing a few talkpages here so we can get folks to weigh in and finalize the potential Wiki image policy. Your input would be appreciated at [[Transformers Wiki talk:Images]].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

== Stub-striking Sock Puppets? ==

You already gave [[User:202.163.208.50|one person]] a time-out for deleting random stuff from pages. It seems we have [[User talk:202.163.208.50|one]] or [[User talk:222.126.100.146|two]] other IPs exhibiting similar behavior. Or it could be one guy with a dynamic IP, I guess.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
::''De nada'', happy to be of help.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 18:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
:::[[User talk:202.163.208.50|Someone's]] still at it. Didn't learn from the one-day vacation, it seems.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 07:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

== Burgeoning Pest ==

[[Special:Contributions/99.164.38.106|Someone new]] is starting to make a nuisance of him/herself. Perhaps not worth action yet, but worth watching just in case, I think.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

== Account exists but it doesn't ==

Hi. This is actually [[User:Aurax|Aurax]], but in my inactivity here (spanning quite some time, as I look now), my account had gone inactive or had some other wire disconnected. Trying to login with the credentials I know to be correct, and I'm notified that the [[User:Aurax|username Aurax]] doesn't exist. If I attempt to create the account again, I'm given a different error message that looks like a holdover from Wikia error scripts. If this is something that will be healed following the crash, I'm fine with that. I just couldn't find anything relating to this in discussion of the crash anywhere in the Damage Control or Community Portal areas. The email in my profile is good if you want to get in touch, or I'll keep checking back here and on my page. [[Special:Contributions/71.191.107.74|71.191.107.74]] 01:04, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:You should be able to recreate this by using the ''exact'' same verification as your old Wikia account. If it doesn't match, it should prevent you from grabbing the username.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:08, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
::I just went back to Teletraan I to check my account there. I'm using the same credentials on both sites (and I've been equally as inactive over there, so it wouldn't have changed after the split). [[User:Aurax|Aurax]] aka [[Special:Contributions/71.191.107.74|71.191.107.74]] 02:58, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== "Fixed" Monobook ==

[[Image:TFWiki-Monobookquotefixedunquote.png|thumb]]
{{quote|...but also fixing some REALLY BAD DESIGN in Monobook. why the hell is everything absolutely positioned?|You, [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&diff=309383&oldid=207765 in making the changes that borked Monobook}}
See the results in the image on the right. I've checked, it's the changes from absolute to relative that did it, and have patched my user CSS accordingly. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, whoops, my bad. I forgot that we still have plain Monobook installed, using a different file. I've moved the changes to a Monacobook specific CSS file now. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 15:02, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

== rel=nofollow ==

Pursuant to discussion @ [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Affiliate_sites|Affiliate Sites]] about sites {{SITENAME_SHORT}} frequently links to, I'm requesting that rel=nofollow be disabled for the following sites:
* http://www.ntfa.net
* http://www.tfu.info
* http://www.wookieepedia.com
* http://www.yojoe.com
These are the sites supported by [[Template:External]]. Please note that rel=nofollow '''had''' been disabled for Wookieepedia prior to the Bookworm crash-- it was apparently accidentally ''re''-set at some point either during our recovery or the subsequent move. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:20, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

== Question ==

Just one simple question. Why you built a second Transformers Wiki website? Isn't having one Teletran-1 the Transformers wiki at Wikia is good enough?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 20:00, 15 September 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes

2009-09-14T17:22:12Z

Dr L: /* F-35 Lightning II */ new section

... You know, if it's going to be "popular" alternate modes, it should be a form that at least, you know, more than two people share. I say three seperate characters (if not three different MOLDS) is the bare minimum. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 03:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

: Me, I'd say five to six characters, with preferably a minimum of three or four different "molds" (since some of these bodies/characters may end up as fiction-only). Rampant redecoing is kinda cheating. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:: I think we also have to be kind of tough on what counts. For cars, it should be same make and model. For critters, though, I'm gonna have to go with same general species. "Scorpions" seems acceptable to me, but "birds" doesn't. You'd have to do something more like "falcons" or "eagles" for it to seem alright. I dunno why. Also, what do we do with Fuzors? I'm kind of loath to include the Sharkticons and Seacons and shit, but, say, Overbite's bio identifies him as a "shark," while Snapdragon's just calls him a "reptile." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 22:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::: For invertebrates, I don't know HasTak have ever made multiple distinct species, so the way we count scorpions and crabs is fine. Spiders might be the exception there. The vertebrate section, however, is a MESS. We have a "wolves" section that excludes the domestic subspecies of Canis lupus, and then an entire order of mammals lumped together as "bats". Vertebrates should probably be broken down by species, although that makes a mess of bears. Breaking it down by genus, though, would lump together the lions, tigers, and jaguars... which is just wrong. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 23:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::::This just seems to be the way humans think about other animals--there's a strong pro-mammal bias. Every child can identify mammal species on sight ("wolf," "lion," "tiger," "gorilla"), but more distantly related animals are usually known only at the order or even subclass level ("parrot", "shark"). Their kind all look alike. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 00:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Aaron Archer doesn't care about black-winged Macaws (or whatever). [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 01:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Indeed Thy, I was thinking just that as I wrote it. It's what we're stuck with though, since HasTak really DID make the crabs and scorpions to all look alike. The ones we need to clean up are "bats" and "sharks"... -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Also, aside from K-9, have there BEEN any other TF non-wolf-canines? That hyena guy, I guess. I think the other issue is that "lions" is gonna have twelve guys, tops. "Big cats" is more like 40 guys. If we're going to do this at ALL, we should err on the side of making it manageable, and if that means dividing mammals more than dividing invertebrates, then I'm all for it. (also, seriously, we need a "two headed monster" category.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 01:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Hoop, hyenas are Feliforms. ''Canis'' is just wolves (including the domestic dog and dingo), the coyote, and jackals. :) -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think this page is a useful reference whenever three or more characters from multiple molds share a vehicle mode. In the case of rampant redecoing, that mold's section on each character's toy page covers the body-sharing, so we should delete things like the Volkswagen Beetle. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 03:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::We are getting a section on Tigers, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing this article changed from "popular" to "shared," and have no numerical restrictions, just list all specific alt modes that more than one character uses. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

: Then we're basically making the page utterly redundant and useless, since we're talking what, half the TF cast? 
: This is looking at the phenomenon of certain alternate mode models popping up more often than others, and across multiple unique toy molds. There are a LOT of unique Dassault Rafale jets in TFdom. A LOT of that Fizzle-style Baja Buggy. A LOT of those huge earth-mover dump-trucks. Two characters having the same altmode over almost 25 years doesn't quite impress, especially considering the sheer amount of redecoing of molds going on. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, with the section on beast modes containing only lions, tigers, and bears, it's practically crying out for an "Oh My" header. Any Transformers that turn into beasts that are so utterly bizarre no one has any idea what they hell they are? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 08:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:Enough of them that are similar enough to each other to make up a listing on this page? Without checking, I'd say "probably not". --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 13:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::The only "monster" types I could even remotely entertain doing an entry here for would be "two headed dragon" (Hun-Grarararrrrugh, Doublecross, etc.) and "bug monster" (Repugnus, Repugnus) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 21:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

==Requirements and cleanup==
I think it's time we took a serious look at this page. It's currently a damn sprawling mess. 
# First of all... let's decide on a "minimum requirements". I think the primary one should be "at least three unique 'molds' across as many different characters", (which would include instances like the IDW characters who have different model altmodes from their originals). 
# Next... what counts as "close enough"? Neither make of Ferrari goes over two molds, but the two makes are pretty damn close visually. 
# Let me propose this as an alternate method of listing to cut waaaaaay back on vertical space... it would need to be noted up top that these are grouped by mold, but still.

:* [[Side Burn (RID)|''RID'' Side Burn]] / [[Roulette]] / [[Shadow Striker]]

:* ''RID'' Side Burn ([[Spy Changer]]) / [[Jazz (G1)#Universe|G1 Jazz (''Universe'')]]

:* [[Sideswipe (G1)#Alternators|G1 Sideswipe (''Alternators'')]] / [[Dead End (G1)#Alternators|Dead End (''Alternators'')]] / [[Sunstreaker#Alternators/Binaltech Asterisk|Sunstreaker (''Alternators'')]]

:* [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] (IDW comic, non-toy appearance)

Just kicking around stuff. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 01:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"Three molds" is definitely the right threshold. For the vehicles, your format looks good. None of the vehicular mold mates on this list are retooled to represent different models, so it works. Animal mold mates DO get turned into different species, though. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

: I can get behind "three molds," most def. I would argue that with autos, it should be make and model, but not necessarily year. The Mustang gets in, because there are three Mustang TFs, even though one is a first-gen and the other two are fifth-gen. The Ferraris don't, I don't think, 'cause they're different models. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 01:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:: I've only left the Ferraris in because you'd think that, like the Porsches and Lamborghinis, at least ''one'' of their supercars would have a mold threepeat in the 23-year history of the brand and it just wasn't coming to mind. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 01:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Would Dromaeosauridae (raptors and Deinonychus) count? It's got a mold (''Beast Wars'' Dinobot) shared by three characters, another mold (Transmetal 2 Dinobot) shared by two characters, and a retool (Thrustor) for one character. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 03:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:'''No'''. We should only include individual species of vertebrates. "Dromaeosauridae" is waaay out of line, and there are only two unique molds anyway. The list you're making in the Sandbox is really flawed, with a "Walrus" list consisting entirely of a Pretender shell being indicative of how problematic it is. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 03:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::That list only exists so I can keep track of how many Transformers fall under whatever classification. I'm not going to place it in here. Jesus, no. Regardless, the reason I put in "Dromaeosauridae" is because people can't seem to make up their mind on what exact species the two molds are. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 03:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

==On Beasts...==
Or, more accurately, Beast Wars. I gotta be honest. I'm... not really thinking that including BW is a good idea, and I'm even questioning "beast modes" altogether. I mean... "Bears" is not the same level of specific classification as "Dassault Rafales". Which was kind of the point of the article... "ain't there a lot of Dassault Rafales" is considerably more curious than "ain't there a lot of sorta t-rexes", given the wide variety of fighter jet makes. 
And even with the fudging made to avoid licensing on many a vehicle mode... it's nowhere as much fudging as the likes of the Cheetor mold, which has been used to be a cheetah, a tiger and a panther, three pretty damn different types of big cat. BM probably not either. Most of the organic beast modes are... really, really vague and bad representations of actual animals, as much so as the wholly-mechanical ones where Ravage being a jaguar is mostly a matter of "okay, if you say so". Damn guy could be a puma, cheetah, cougar... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:42, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:Yeeah. While I like the concept, it all needs too much hand-waving for my liking. We have to pack all spiders together to make a decent list, even though the species are as different as lions are to tigers. Arbitrary criteria isn't something we can do away with in animals. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 04:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::I freely admit I added the beast section in the first place because I wanted to mock this article. That said, I think it's a legitimate section (albeit of an article I find silly.)
::...you should dump the fuzors though. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

==Beast split==

I'm going to remove the beasts from this page and create one called "Popular beast modes" if there is no objection. The feeling seems to be that having lists for Gorilla, Canis, Tyrannosaurus, etc. is useful but can't be measured by the same standard as "Man, there sure are a lot of Lamborghini Diablos". -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 05:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

==Brawl is not an Abrams==

Well, no more than the Rattler is an A-10. He was a repurposed "stealth tank" from ''XXX: State of the Union''. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 05:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

== Siren/RX-7 ==

Since two people seem to be against me on this I figured I'd post some photographic proof:
[http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t285/Detour84/TF/go-rx7.jpg]

Note the lack of secondary headlights on the Supra that are clearly present on the RX-7, among other glaringly obvious differences. I hope that clears everything up. [[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Detour, being a mechanic. Siren/Go Shooter is much more like a FC3S 2nd Generation RX-7 then the Supra. I can see why people might think it's a Mark II or Mark III of Toyota's turn from Celica Supra to just plain Supra, but the FC3S has more of the little details that show that it's more like it. Also the rear lights on the Siren/Go Shooter toy have more of the curvature of a RX-7 FC3S Savanna.

:[http://tfu.info/1988/Cybertron/GoShooter/goshooter.htm Siren]
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mk3_supra.jpg Supra]
:[http://auto.indiamart.com/cars/photo-gallery/gifs/car91b.jpg RX-7]

:Note Siren's (okay, Go Shuta's - Siren's hood emblem is more distracting) centerline hood bump, absent on any of the appropriate model-year RX-7s, as well as the prominent front fender. Also notice the lack of an air intake on the toy as seen on the FC3S. If you ask me, the problem here is that the animators have decided to draw some other car for the cartoon - much like they did with all the Combaticons.

:I find it highly unlikely that two white cars were both intended by Hasbro and Takara to be RX-7s in the same year. Getaway is inarguably an RX-7 Turbo II.

:I don't care enough about this page to try to decide how this affects Siren's listing on it. -[[User:LV|LV]] 14:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

:This isn't my area of expertise at all, but, if there is a seemingly legitimate uncertainty due to hybridized features or something, it is far better to explicitly note this in the article (regardless of where he's placed) than to just pick one or the other with no explanation. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 17:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The example you used in your photos is the FB3S, the first generation of the RX-7 line, not a good example. Also the FC3S came without the hood air intake also, just it's difficult to find a photo of one on short notice, the one pictured was the Savanna model, the more sporty version.

:It's like Proto said, not all models of the RX-7 came with a hood air intake. Here's one without: [http://www.pro-imports.ie/images/rx7001.jpg]. Steve-O, I don't think there's uncertainty since I pretty much recognized Siren as being an RX-7 right away. I'm a Supra worshipper... if Siren was a Supra, I'd have recognized it and I'd be the first one flipping out with joy over it and pointing it out on the respective articles.
:Also, what's wrong with having two distinct toys sharing an alt mode in the same year? 1984 gave us two different Lamborghini toys, didn't it? And in 1985 we got both Camshaft and the RX-7 Minispy.
::You have yet to address the blatant difference in the front fascia between the matching Siren and Supra and the RX-7, as well as centerline hood bulge, which still do not match using your new picture. Removal of the hood air intake does not make the lines of the front end or hood match. -[[User:LV|LV]] 01:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

== Big Trucks ==

Did someone forgot to put the Peterbilt 379 in this section? Optimus turns into a civilian vehicle.
:The word you're missing is "Popular." In other words, something more than one Transformer turns into. Please read! It's essential. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You and I know how many semi trucks are there in the G1 Series.([[User:76.195.186.73|76.195.186.73]] 00:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC))

==Space Shuttles==
There is already three space shuttles can you please put it down on the article? Astrotrain, Jetfire and Sky Lynx are the same American Space Shuttles.([[User:76.213.157.97|76.213.157.97]] 00:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC))
:Jetfire has never been an American space shuttle. His Armada form is ''similar'' but still quite Cybertronian. [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] however qualifies easily.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
::There's also Mach, the Micromaster Combiners shuttle, the Sixwing component, and Galaxy Shuttle. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 02:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

== Military tanks ==

Since this only includes one particular tank, I don't think it needs its own sub-heading. I propose it and "Military aircraft" be combined into "Military vehicles", or "Military hardware". Any objections? --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 23:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
:Works for me. Military ground vehicles outside of the "traditional" tanks don't seem to be too common in TFdom, do they. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

== Aircraft ==

Are you sure that many transformers turn into F-15s and F-22s?([[User:MARV 2000|MARV 2000]] 23:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC))

==Nissan Z==
With Classics Prowl well on his way, would the Z series be considered a popular altmode, given the 280Z (Prowl, Bluestreak, Smokescreen), the 300ZX (Streetwise) and the 350Z (Classics Prowl)? --[[User:74.57.3.251|74.57.3.251]] 21:57, 11 March 2008 (UTC) ([[User:Detour|Detour at work]])

== Aircraft Carriers ==
What about them? We have [[Flattop]], [[Broadside (G1)]] and [[Tidal Wave (Armada)]] and maybe some more which I'm not aware of. That's enough, or not? I'm not sure where to put them, "military vehicles" or "miscallenous". --[[User:2A6|2A6]] 22:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
:To be fair, Flattop's alt mode is a jet, he just comes with another jet that turns into an aircraft carrier. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 01:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::[[Majin Zarak]] qualifies, though.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: I'm kind of loath to do "aircraft carrier" because that's kind of vague - if Recharge were here, he could probably clarify, but I'm pretty sure that "aircraft carrier" is like "racing motorcycle" - there are a lot of different designs out there, and some of them are probably fudged for TFs sake. If someone who knew what they were talking about (like 'Charge) could actually sit down and go "Tidal Wave, Broadside, and Flattop's carrier are all ''Nimitz''-class carriers or close enough," then go for it. Otherwise it's like saying that Groove, Glide, and RiD Axer all belong together because they're touring bikes. (note that I don't think this is gonna happen, because Tidal Wave's carrier is basically a marginally better depiction of an aircraft carrier than Grandus.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
::I'm with Hoop on this. I mean, we do have one kinda-vague set, the Baja buggy... but at least that one has a fairly hefty group of dudes in that form (plus I don't know if there even IS a "brand" for them). If you're kinda struggling for three... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
: I also had that thought about the necessity of specific types/classes of carriers when I wrote the initial post, but then again I thought that Aircraft carriers should be treated as a single group, mainly because the TF Aircraft carrier-designs are pretty generic and stylized and those differences and details which an expert would look for at real carriers are simply not present at those lil' toys. I mean, to make a car into an 4" toy, it only has to be downsized to a scale of 1:50 or so, to make a 4 inch toy out of an aircraft carrier means a scale of 1:"severalhundred". Thus a lot more details are ironed out. But it's your decision, not mine. --[[User:2A6|2A6]] 23:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
:: If I felt that the TF aircraft carriers were designed with even a REMOTE eye for accuracy, I'd be more willing to consider it, but as it stands, the TF carriers are all *very* crude approximations, even taking toy scale into issue - they're better at being aircraft carriers than say, Grandus or Majin Zarak, but they're all still basically "big flat thing with a little towery bit=aircraft carrier." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 01:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

== Dassault Rafaele ==

G2 Eagle Eye is listed here as a Rafaele, but his page calls him a EF2000 Eurofighter. Which is it? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

== Construction Vehicles ==
For a project I'm working on, I'd like to be able to source the various construction vehicles. I think quite a few fulfil the rules above. One problem is the two sides of the Atlantic use different terms. On the east we use terms like cement mixers, diggers and er, other terms I haven't used since I was 6! [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 10:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

== Motorcycles ==
Likewise for the same reasons above. Specific model types of motor-cycles (as is applied to cars) might be being a bit too strict. [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 10:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

==VW Beetle==
Um... IDW Goldbug doesn't actually turn into a VW, does he? I thought he was a Cybertronian whatever. So we're still at only two for this one. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:49, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:IDW Goldbug doesn't turn into a VW, but surely the Goldbug toy that he's based on is still associated with the character. Besides ... Donald Duck, completely separate character, so whether or not you count Goldbug, we're at three. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:38, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
::I don't know that I would consider the original Goldbug toy an IDW Goldbug. Especially since it was designed to be a renamed/rebuilt Bumblebee and ''was'' a renamed/rebuilt Bumblebee for over 20 years. Donald Duck is the only VW Beetle toy that was not first made and marketed as the Bumblebee character. Until we get a VW Beetle toy that is ''explicitly'' supposed to be IDW Goldbug, we shouldn't include him. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:55, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:::The requirement isn't that the toy is first made and marketed as a new character though, just that it exists. Characters like Volks and Bugbite and Glyph certainly count as a different mold/character use, even if they were Bumblebee first. As for repurposed toys, I think they're totally valid. You MIGHT hang an argument on the idea that the Goldbug toy doesn't match up with the IDW body depiction of the character, but that's a slippery slope. Animated Blackouts only ever appears as a Cybertronian jet, but you'd still associate his character with the Earth mode helicopter toy, no? Long story short, Beetles have many, many molds and many, many characters. This includes at least 3, possibly 4, unique character/mold designations. At this point, to not include him would be silly. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:34, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
::::Well, the requirement is at least that an existing toy repurposed is officially stated to be that certain other character, I would think? The Animated Blackout toy is officially Blackout even if we never see him in fiction as the Earth helicopter. And folks like the Shattered Glass characters are officially shown/said to be certain toys. But we got zip that officially says or shows that IDW Goldbug = toy Goldbug. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:46, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::Really? Would you seriously put forth the proposition that the IDW Throttlebots are not based on the Throttlebot toys? The funny thing is, it doesn't even matter for this argument. With or without Goldbug, Beetles qualify. I therefor propose that we move this discussion over to the [[Goldbug (IDW)]] page where it belongs.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 16:54, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::I'd put forth that they're based on the Throttlebot ''characters'', obviously. Whether they're based on the toys is another matter entirely, considering that they don't even have Earth modes yet to judge from. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:08, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::No, Beetles would ''not'' qualify. Every VW Beetle mold that is not Donald Duck was first designed for and sold as the character of Bumblebee, even if one was Bumblebee with a different name. Redecos are not qualifications, new characters or not, otherwise this list would be way, way longer. And it is kind of pointless to go "look, a toy of the exact same character as another toy shares an altmode!", so "World's Smallest" toys are out too. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:56, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Siph, I love you but you're just flat out wrong on this. The qualifications listed on the page are: "There must be at least three unique toy molds (or in-fiction appearances, in the case of non-toy bodies/characters) that share the model. There must also be at least one unique character per mold." We never say anything about 'the first use of the mold has to be a different character than the first use of the other molds.' If you think that the requirement for inclusion should change, well, that's a completely separate argument. We've got three characters across three molds - let's say World's Smallest/Bumblebee, 1984 VW mold/Bug Bite, and the Disney Label / Donald Duck here. It doesn't matter that Bug Bite shares a mold with Bumblebee. If it did, then every time a later redeco comes out that homages an earlier character, we'd have to go and start removing popular alt modes, and that's lunacy.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:13, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then the top is worded wrong. Look at the other lists as they are now. Not a one counts same-character-same-altmode-different-toys to get up to three, because "three different molds made for three different characters" is what we've been using as the yardstick. And I have no clue what you're on about for removing entries based on later homages. The point is ''the original toys' design intent''. That so many different toy molds were developed to be different characters yet kept going back to specific vehicle makes is the point of the article. It is ''not'' interesting when a single character has a bunch of different molds all based on a single alternate mode. That's ''expected''. Nor is it interesting when a mold is redecoed to be another character; that too is very very commonplace. We list each mold's redecos out of completeness/linking-to-more-obscure-stuff's sake, not as a yardstick (and we shouldn't list same-character redecos like "Red Bumblebee" because ''holy fuck'' would that make some listings, such as the G2 Go-Bots molds, stupidly long for no good reason). It is the creation of an entirely new mold based on a recurring vehicle that is a character who hasn't been one of those yet (be it because they didn't exist previously or had another alternate mode) that's the oddity. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:30, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::OK, the discussion becomes, what SHOULD the criteria for inclusion be, since apparently you're not happy with the way it's been listed out for the past, I dunno, year or so? I'm not sure I see how it's relevant what the designers intention is. I mean, technically, the 1984 Bumblebee toy wasn't intended to be Bumblebee, or even a real car, at all, right? It was intended to be a penny racer in the Microman line. So, then, you have one toy that was intended to be something not Bumblebee and repurposed and redecoed into a bunch of guys (including Bumblebee), then a few toys intended to be Bumblebee, then a toy intended to be Donald Duck. So we're STILL ok, even by the 'designer intention' criteria you proposed above. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:54, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

== Buses? ==

What's the feeling on buses? The article for Ironhide (Animated) says he's a minibus (although Cybertronian, so that may not count). Additionally, the school bus at Murray Wright High School has a notation that says it's actually the FOURTH bus Transformer. Granted, I think all these buses have been different models (double-decker, metro, school, etc.) so they still might not be appropriate... [[User:Skyshock Thunderblast|Skyshock Thunderblast]] 12:22, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
:For this article, we'd pretty much need to know the specific models of the buses - we can't just put "Bus" on the list. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 12:30, 20 August 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, thought so. Most of the buses are all really small or really hidden, and even if I knew the models, they'd all be different. I should've thought of that. [[User:Skyshock Thunderblast|Skyshock Thunderblast]] 19:42, 20 August 2009 (EDT)

== F-35 Lightning II ==

There is already 4 transformers that turn into an F-35 Lightninh II and that's breakaway, sunstorm, armada thrust and rotf thrust([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 13:22, 14 September 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Eye in the Sky

2009-09-14T17:18:05Z

Dr L:

==Abdül Fakkadi and the Ottomans==
I think the article should expand upon what makes the mirrorverse Fakkadi and his country different. Aside from being a pacifist instead of a craving mad dictator, he's also an Ottoman, which raises the high possibility that he's NOT an Arab in this universe but a Turk! Also, the real Ottoman Empire was overthrown in 1923 (after WWI), but they still exist in Shattered Glass. The article not only fails to mention this last bit, but the statement "his people are referred to as the "Ottomans"" makes it seem like the Ottomans are made up =/ perhaps a link to [[Wikipedia:Ottoman Empire|Wikipedia's article on the Ottoman Empire]] would be useful -- [[User:Ziyad|Ziyad]] 18:03, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
:Abdul Fakkadi was always more based on [[wikipedia:Muammar al-Gaddafi|Muammar al-Gaddafi]] than anyone, which makes him Libyan, not Arab. Libya ''was'' part of the Ottoman Empire.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:12, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
::Libya ''is'' an Arab country, though. So, ''any'' Libyan is also considered an Arab, includding [[Wikipedia:Muammar al-Gaddafi|Gaddafi]], and, in respect, [[Abdul Fakkadi|Fakkadi]]. That said, Libya was indeed conquered by the Ottomans, who assign leaders of their own to the territories they capture, so Libya at that point was run by the Turks, before being taken by the Italians, then finally handed over to the Arabs. Hence, it's safe to assume that [[Abdul Fakkadi]] is Arab in the conventional-verse (with all the stereotypicality of [[Carbombya]], it's hard to deny that), and possible to conclude he's Turkish in the mirrorverse, because he is ruling an Ottoman territory. -- [[User:Ziyad|Ziyad]] 19:53, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

:I'd be happy to expand, except that everything that's in the article is pretty much all the info on them that was in the story itself. And outside information can't be assumed as necessarily true in TF, and that goes double for anything Shattered Glass-related, where everything's ''totally'' messed up. I mean, in the SG universe, the British want to invade the US, and the Statue of Liberty has a sword, and that's just for starters. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:39, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
::So, history could be ALL messed up in SG, huh... I never thought of it that way. And now that I do, it makes sense not to assume anything. But I still believe it should be mentioned in the '''Real-World References ''' that the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1923, and that Fakkadi ruling an Ottoman territory could be a based on the fact that Libya was once a part of the Ottoman Empire. -- [[User:Ziyad|Ziyad]] 09:44, 15 August 2009 (EDT)

Hey where to get this comic? I can't find it at any book store. Also this page needs more images.([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 13:18, 14 September 2009 (EDT))

Talk:Spike Witwicky (SG)

2009-09-14T17:16:27Z

Dr L: New page: Hey where is the image for this guy?(~~~~)

Hey where is the image for this guy?([[User:Dr L|Dr L]] 13:16, 14 September 2009 (EDT))