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Optimus Prime (G1)

2009-08-06T23:26:25Z

Fleb: yet another link lost in the great restore

{{factions|autobot|autobotg2}}
{{disambig3|Optimus Prime}}
:''Optimus Prime is the leader of the [[Autobot]]s from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Optimusg1.jpg|right|350px|thumb|I'm that guy everyone remembers. No, not the [[Soundwave (G1)|tape guy]], the other guy.]]
'''Optimus Prime''' is the awe-inspiring [[Prime (rank)|leader]] of the [[Autobot]] forces. Originally a mere civilian, he was chosen by the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] to command, the first in a number of heavy burdens he has been forced to bear. Another is his bringing of the Transformers' conflict to Earth. The complete opposite of his mortal enemy [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], every casualty, [[human]] or [[Transformer|Cybertronian]], weighs heavily on his [[spark]]. He does not show this side to his soldiers, and he never succumbs to despair. The Autobots need a decisive, charismatic leader, and that is what he gives them. It was that leadership which turned the tide of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]].

On the battlefield, there are few who rival Optimus Prime's prowess. He is easily the strongest of any Autobot his [[Scale|size]], and his [[ion blaster]] and his [[energon-axe]] are deadly weapons. He would sacrifice his life to protect his fellow Autobots or those under their care, and [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|does so on a regular basis]]. His compassion for other sentient beings is his only real weakness, and one the Decepticons have taken advantage of time and again... though it's also the source of his strength!

Prime carries within him the [[Matrix of Leadership]].

Before being rebuilt into a [[Powermaster]] his robot mode split into three components:

*A sentient robot module, the [[Brain Center]].
*A wheeled drone module known as [[Roller]].
*A [[Combat Deck]].

Although Optimus Prime can function as three independent modules, injury to any one module is felt by the other two.

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.|Optimus Prime's most common [[bio]] quote}}

:''Japanese name:'' '''Convoy'''
:''Japanese name (Laser Rod):'' '''Battle Convoy'''
:''French-Canadian & Chzech name:'' '''Optimus Primus'''
:''Hungarian name (The Movie):'' '''Optimusz Fővezér''' / '''Optimusz Prájm''' ("Optimus Chief")
:''Italian name:'' '''Commander'''
:''Portuguese name (Portugal comics):'' '''Optimus Supremo''' ("Optimus Supreme")
:''Portuguese name (Brazil cartoon):'' '''Líder Optimus''' ("Leader Optimus")
:''Portuguese name (Brazil comics):'' '''Supremus Absolutus'''
:''Taiwanese name:'' '''Tīh-ghŭ''' (鐵牛, literally "Iron Ox" or "Iron Bull", a kind of vehicle in early days and rural area)
:''Chinese name (Taiwan):'' '''Jr-tsūn''' (至尊, "Prime")
:''Cantonese name:'' '''O Baak Man''' (柯柏文)
:''Chinese name (China):'' '''Qing Tian Zhu''' (擎天柱, "Pillar that Supports the Sky")

==Fiction==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
{{main|Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity}}
[[Image:CommandPerformances-Autobotsattack.jpg|left|thumb|300px|Don't worry, the multiple crises of conscience come soon enough.]]

Optimus Prime was a gladiator champion for [[Iacon]] before quickly working his way up the Autobot ranks once [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] started the war. Four million years ago, when Decepticons attacked the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], he personally chose to crash it onto [[Earth]], a decision that caused him much remorse when the war restarted on Earth in the modern day.

Though Optimus allowed himself to be destroyed when he betrayed his own moral code while playing a video game, a copy of his mind survived on a [[floppy disk]]. Years later, he was restored as a [[Powermaster]], binary bonded to the [[Nebulan]], [[Hi-Q]]. Optimus Prime slowly earned the respect of Decepticon leader [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]], mourned the loss of his friend [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], and ultimately sacrificed everything to defeat [[Unicron]]. Though Optimus died again, his mind persisted in Hi-Q, and the [[Last Autobot]] was able to restore him as an [[Action Master]] in time to bring a temporary end to the war.

In [[Generation 2|one universe]], Optimus Prime went on to battle [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]], his [[Cybertronian Empire]], and the [[Swarm]]. In [[Classics (2006)|another]], fifteen years of peace passed before Megatron rose again.

{{-}}

===S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers===
The Autobots were outnumbered and outgunned on Earth from the start, though Optimus was confident (and correct) that reinforcements from Cybertron would arrive. {{storylink|Reinforcements from Cybertron!}}

However, the situation was still so desperate that Optimus not only decided to recruit human allies {{storylink|The battle is far from over!}}, but aggressively tried to recruit and ''deputise'' human children, including giving them the power to co-ordinate Autobot teams in battles. He wouldn't even make a final move on the Decepticons until he had enough child soldiers on his side. {{storylink|Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!}} {{storylink|Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?}} In at least one case, this likely led to the ''death'' of a small boy at Decepticon hands. {{storylink|Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?}}

Optimus later led a convoy in search for a building site for [[Autobot City]], which ran into a Decepticon ambush. {{storylink|Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.}} He sent off several Autobots to get help, knowing this was the only chance of victory. {{storylink|Transformers Combat Data}} Those several Autobots were seen again, but Prime... wasn't.

===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
{{main|Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity}}

[[Image:Mtmte2_shermandam.jpg|left|250px|thumb|He had this ax once. It was very memorable.]]

Before the war, Optimus Prime was originally '''Orion Pax''', a young dock worker with a girlfriend named [[Elita One|Ariel]]. But as the war began, Megatron destroyed them both, and [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]] rebuilt them into more powerful warriors.

Four million years ago, Optimus Prime ended a Decepticon attack on the Ark by directing it towards prehistoric Earth. When both factions reawakened in 1984, Optimus Prime and the Autobots fought the Decepticons on numerous occasions until 2005. During an attack on [[Autobot City]] on Earth, Prime fell in battle against Megatron and passed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]].

Optimus Prime eventually returned, once as a [[zombie]], and again when he was rebuilt by the [[Quintesson]]s to stop the spread of the [[Hate Plague]].

The details between these events differ between universes. Sometimes Optimus Prime merged with [[Vector Sigma]] soon after defeating the Hate Plague, and returned much, much later as Star Convoy. Sometimes Optimus Prime partnered up with [[Marissa Faireborn]] to receive upgrades through mutual [[kiss]]ing. Sometimes... look, he did a lot of weird stuff, okay?

===Kid Stuff Talking Story Books===
:''Voice actor:'' Unknown

Optimus Prime is a "metallic nemesis". Megatron said so.

{{charstubfiction}}

===Big Looker Story Books===
[[Image:KidsPrime1.jpg|right|150px|thumb|And the fluffy kitten played with that yarn all gosh-darn night.]]

When a 2-part race was being held with a massive supply of oil and gasoline as the prize, both the Decepticons and the Autobots badly wanted to win it. Megatron entered the race by hiding himself inside a hollowed-out car and harassed [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] all throughout the contest. When Prime discovered the car was being driven by his arch foe, he swiftly pulled a telephone pole out from the ground and used it to bash the mortal hell out of the cheating Decepticon. Thanks to Prime's violent intervention, Cliffjumper was able to win the race. Afterward, Optimus Prime celebrated the Minibot's victory with a gargantuan smile as all the Decepticons starved to death. {{storylink|The Great Car Rally}}

{{charstubfiction}}
{{-}}
===Ladybird Books continuity===
{{storylink|Autobots' Lightning Strike}} {{storylink|Megatron's Fight for Power}} {{storylink|Autobots Fight Back}} {{storylink|Laserbeak's Fury}} {{storylink|Autobot Hostage}} {{storylink|Decepticons Underground}}
{{charstubfiction}}

===''Transformer PD Type'' comic===

[[Image:PDtype-Matrixattack.jpg|left|thumb|250px|This is the highlight of this entire page.]]

When a horde of time-displaced Decepticons joined forces to hunt down the five [[Blackball]]s, a super energy source, Optimus Prime gathered a team of time-displaced Autobots to help stop them.

In one encounter with his arch-foe [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], they reenacted their epic struggle from the [[Battle of Autobot City]]. However, this time around, Prime avoided dying by launching his "Matrix Attack"...''literally'' launching the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] from his chest, bonking Megatron on the head. {{storylink|Transformer PD Type|You're Great! Optimus Prime!}}

Later, Optimus Prime and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] concocted a cunning strategy. They disguised a round, black cartoon explosive as a Blackball and gave it to [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]. Starscream promptly brought it to Megatron, where it blew both of them up. Optimus and Magnus were astounded their plan actually worked. {{storylink|Transformer PD Type|Don't Cry! Megatron!!}}

In one of his less impressive moments, after running out of ammo during a battle with [[Deathsaurus]], Optimus Prime ordered his fellow Autobots to improvise and hurl everything that wasn't nailed down at their enemy. This included the Blackball, unfortunately. Catching it, Deathsaurus began to fantasize about his inevitable galactic conquest, all the while being pelted with rocks and litter. Frustrated, Deathsaurus accidentilly hurled the Blackball back to the Autobots in a fit of rage. {{storylink|Transformer PD Type|Good Job! Deathsaurus!!}}
{{-}}

===''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic===
[[Image:G2Hero.jpg|right|200px|thumb|GAH, HE'S LOOKING AT ME!]]
In the year 199X, the Decepticons had learned of a powerful new energy source known as [[forestonite]] which just happened to be located (surprise surprise) on [[Earth]]. Megatron sent his trio of [[Cyberjet]]s to Earth first to draw out the enemy Autobots. The Cyberjets made quick work of [[Electro]] but were soon halted by the appearance of Optimus Prime.

Megatron then entered the fray and fired his Black Hole Burn attack from his fusion cannon, narrowly missing Optimus Prime but vaporizing [[Hooligan (G2)|Hooligan]] in the process. Prime fought fiercely but Megatron began to take the upper-hand in battle.

However, Prime was encouraged to keep fighting by the cheers of a human boy named [[Junpei]]. Megatron, surprised at Prime's resilience, attempted to finish his foe off with his Tornado Axe attack. Prime countered with his Double Wheel-Torque Mega-Ton, which trumped Megatron's attack and injured the Decepticon badly. Megatron teleported back to his ship and left Earth's atmosphere, vowing to return.

Optimus Prime addressed Junpei, asking if the boy was injured. Junpei revealed he was alright but presented concern about the Decepticons returning to Earth. Optimus Prime swore that the Autobots would remain on Earth until the threat of the Decepticons was finished and asked for Junpei's help in making that future a reality. {{storylink|The New Battle!!}}

===''Beast Wars'' cartoon continuity===
====''Beast Wars'' cartoon====
[[Image:G1Prime BWMegs.jpg|left|180px|thumb|You have to get up preeeeetty early in the timestream to beat Optimus Prime!]]

The [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] raged on prehistoric Earth, eventually leading to the discovery of the buried Ark sometime after its crash on prehistoric Earth. [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], following [[Megatron (G1)|his namesake's]] instructions in a desperate gambit, decided to attempt to change history by killing Prime, who was still lying in the Ark in [[stasis lock]]. Megatron hoped that this would result in the Decepticons winning the Great War and eventually [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] control of Cybertron. Megatron unleashed a full-power weapon blast at Optimus Prime's face, near-fatally injuring him. {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}} However, [[Optimus Primal]] proceeded to take Prime's spark into his body to protect it from surgical trauma while his injuries were repaired. The subsequent power increase caused by Prime's spark's connection to the Matrix mutated Primal into a large, [[Transmetal]] "Optimal Optimus" form. Then, with the repairs complete, Prime's spark was restored, and he briefly activated before sinking back into normal stasis. {{storylink|Optimal Situation}}

Sometime after the Autobots and Decepticons awoke in the 1980s, the original Megatron gained access to one of Earth's ''Voyager'' spacecraft and inscribed a message on the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|disk]] on board. In the event that he lost the War, Megatron left instructions for the descendants of the Decepticons to use [[transwarp]] technology to travel to Prehistoric Earth, locate the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], and change history by killing Optimus Prime. {{storylink|The Agenda (Part 2)}}

====''Beast Machines'' cartoon====
[[Image:Sparkwar2_Optimus_hologram_primal.jpg|right|200px|thumb|]]
:''Voice actor'': [[Garry Chalk]] (English), [[Tilo Schmitz]] (German)

An enormous statue of Optimus Prime, bearing two [[Golden Disk (disambiguation)|Golden Disks]], could be seen on Cybertron in front of the Hall of Archives. The statue was subsequently blown to pieces by the [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon forces]]. {{storylink|Fires of the Past}} Later, Megatron beamed a hologram of Optimus Prime down to the ruins of [[Iacon]] to confront [[Optimus Primal]]. Primal mistook the hologram for the real thing and shared with it the code for the [[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]]. Megatron quickly revealed his ruse. Primal explained to his Maximals that he knew the image was fake, but he needed the location of the missing [[spark]]s from Megatron's mind. {{storylink|Sparkwar Pt. II: The Search}}

{{note|Writer [[Bob Skir]] claims that neither the statue nor the golden disks in its hands were mentioned in the script. However, he suggested that they were either the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|disks]] from the Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 probes, or that Optimus won them in the 2,395,989th Annual Cybertronian spelling bee.<ref>[http://bigbot.com/beast-machines-transformers-bob-skir/Beast-Machines-FAQ/Tue_12_Oct_1999.html Q&A from Bigbot's "bobskir.com"]</ref> We're betting on the latter.}}

====''Universe: Primeval Dawn''====
[[Image:Sparkholderprimevaldawn.jpg|left|190px|thumb|"Oh, I also have this in me now, too."]]
The Vok took the Matrix of Leadership from an unconscious Optimus Prime, used it to create [[Primal Prime]], then gave the Matrix to their new creation. {{storylink|Primeval Dawn Part 1}}

{{note|In the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon, Prime's spark was shown to be contained in a Matrix-like vessel. In [[Universe (2003 comic)|Primeval Dawn]], that vessel was shown to be merely a container for his spark, and the actual Matrix was hidden underneath.}}
{{-}}

===''Beast Wars Metals'' comic===
[[Image:CheetasManga1.jpg|right|100px|thumb|Cheetor, that's Prime's Spark, not a toy.]]
Optimus Prime was blasted into pieces by Dragon Megatron. Fortunately, his spark remained perfectly intact—in the remains of his [[Optimal Situation|Matrix-shaped spark chamber]]. Megatron was going to destroy Prime's spark, but [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (now in his Transmetal body) saved it. Prime's spark was eventually swallowed by Optimus Primal, who was upgraded into Optimal Optimus by doing so.

After Megatron was killed by Optimal Optimus, Primal and his crew said it would be troublesome to fix Optimus Prime's body.
{{-}}

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
{{cleanup|April 2009|Needs general expansion and STORYLINKS TO INDIVIDUAL ISSUES. Links to the series are not acceptable.}}

[[Image:Optronix optimus.jpg|left|180px|thumb|What? OPTRONIX is evolving!]]
Optimus Prime started life as '''Optronix''' (Orion to his friends<ref>The [[Keepers Trilogy]] novels set in Dreamwave continuity</ref>), a data archivist. After taking note of a battle in which the Autobot leader [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] had been defeated by Megatron, he was summoned to the council of elders and informed that the Matrix had chosen him to be the next leader of the Autobots. He received the Matrix of Leadership shortly thereafter, gaining a powerful new body in the process, and almost arranged for the Autobot evacuation of Cybertron, intending to leave the Decepticons to their own devices, until a battle with Megatron beneath the planet's surface, accompanied by visions from the Matrix, stirred him on to fight for the safety of his homeworld. Some time into his role as leader, Prime disappeared in a [[space bridge]] explosion along with Megatron, but returned some time later, having spent a period of time on [[Quintessa]]. {{storylink|The War Within}}

Following the awakening of the Transformers on Earth, the Autobots protected the planet from the Decepticons. Over the next fifteen years, the Autobots befriended the humans, particularly the [[Witwicky|Witwicky family]]. The Autobots finally allied with humankind and eventually defeated the Decepticons at the turn of the century. They planned to return to Cybertron aboard the newly constructed ''[[Ark II]]'', along with seven humans, including Witwicky patriarch [[Sparkplug Witwicky|Sparkplug]]. Before the ship departed, Prime gave a piece of the Matrix to [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]], Sparkplug's son and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]]'s closest human friend. But the ship was destroyed as part of a military conspiracy to take control of the Transformers. However, a terrorist organization run by the enigmatic [[Lazarus]] was able to seize control of several of the Transformers that fell back to Earth, while the U.S. military located Prime's body. Spike was forced by the product chief, General [[Robert Hallo]], to use the piece of the Matrix to reactivate Prime. Functional again, Prime used the Matrix to reactivate more of his fallen comrades, and then faced off against Megatron in [[San Francisco]]. {{storylink|Prime Directive}}

Following this, Prime began to experience subconscious urgings, leading both the Autobots and the Decepticons to the Arctic Circle, where Shockwave arrived to greet them—and arrest them as war criminals. Shockwave had succeeded in ending the war on Cybertron, but Prime soon fell in with a rebel Autobot group that had discovered Shockwave had a greater agenda. Rallying Autobots across Cybertron to the cause, Prime faced Shockwave in battle but was defeated and had the Matrix ripped from him and used to activate Vector Sigma. Before Shockwave could make full use of the mega-computer's data, however, [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] arrived and bested him. The injuries Prime took in this conflict necessitated a prolonged restoration period in stasis. {{storylink|War and Peace}}

{{note|...which turned out to be the remainder of Dreamwave's existence. Bummer.}}

===''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''===
[[Image:GIJoevsTFcobraprime.jpg|right|275px|thumb|G.1. Joe-the real universal hero!]]

Several Autobots and Decepticons, including Optimus Prime, were reformatted into will-less war machines under the control of [[Cobra]]. During an initial attack on a human peace conference, Cobra's remote control of Optimus mysteriously failed. Later at Cobra's island headquarters in the Caribbean, Cobra scientists pulled Optimus apart to find out what was impeding their commands. As this analysis took place, Optimus reverse hacked into Cobra computers until they shut him down in a panic. Despite this, Prime sent a viral message out to hundreds of email addresses that included the coordinates of Cobra's base. The message was intercepted by [[G.I. Joe]] who teamed up with Wheeljack and Bumblebee. After Wheeljack broke the remote control over the Transformers, Prime went after [[Cobra Commander]]. More than a bit frightened of a giant robot gunning for him, the human released Megatron, who was trapped in gun model. Megatron transformed and fought Prime to a standstill until other Autobots came to back him up.

Although he was weak and low on [[Energon (fuel)|energon]], Prime made a last-ditch effort to save the day when he rammed through the wall of Megatron's energon-producing lab. After a quick recharge, Optimus single-handedly smashed the Decepticons, pounded Megatron to the ground, and ripped his [[fusion cannon]] off his arm. Prime then teamed up with the Joes and used Megatron's cannon to shoot down the [[SPS satellite]] that had gone rogue and was destroying the island.

With the battle over, Prime and the Autobots boarded a new ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'' ship built by G.I. Joe and returned to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers}}

[[Image:GIJoevstfIIprime1930s.jpg|left|275px|thumb|War Convoy: TRANSFORM!!!]]
On a Cybertron dominated by [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] and the Decepticons, Optimus Prime and the Autobots took on the roles of resistance fighters. Cobra experimentation transported a contingent of Cobras and G.I. Joes to Cybertron and destabilized [[Teletran 3]]. The computer then sent several Transformers to [[Earth]] across different time periods. A team made up of Joes and Cobra agents were sent back and found Optimus Prime and the [[Stunticon]]s in 1930s-era Chicago, disguised as period cars and trucks. The Stunticons chased Prime and the Joes around the city until everything was wrapped up with bullets, a collapsed bridge and some dynamite.

After the Transformers and humans were returned to present-day Cybertron and the Decepticons were vanquished by the recently-arrived [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]], Prime made an agreement with the Joes to destroy the technology that started the whole mess in order to protect Earth. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II}}

On Cybertron, Optimus Prime kicked back to do a little bit of paperwork and reminisce. With Shockwave defeated, Cybertron was enjoying a new era of peace. He was interrupted by Hot Rod, who reported that a group of "pesky humans with their peashooters" were giving an Autobot team on Earth a hard time. Prime suspected Cobra's involvement and counseled Hot Rod not to be so dismissive of the humans.

Later, at a peace celebration, Prime was watching a procession of Autobots when Decepticons attacked. Optimus ordered Omega Supreme into action but the huge Autobot was quickly overcome by Menasor, Piranacon and Predaking. Prime hopped into the fray, saved a female Autobot from getting smushed by the falling Omega, rode a flying Decepticon into Piranacon's face, smashed another Decepticon into the ground, and carried a wounded Autobot out of danger.

[[Image:Primevsserpentor.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Serpent O.R. soon realized that "This I command!" doesn't work on Optimus Prime.]]
Menasor cut off Prime's escape and confronted him with a hologram of [[Serpentor|Serpent O.R.]] The new Decepticon leader carried Megatron's memories and information downloaded from Soundwave, from which he learned of the Matrix of Leadership. Serpent O.R. offered Optimus a trade: hostages and peace if he handed over the Matrix. Optimus agreed.

In his stronghold, Serpent O.R. questioned Prime about his own worthiness to carry the Matrix, but Optimus broke free of his chains and aggressively ordered him to surrender. A group of Decepticons broke in and nearly took Prime apart, but not before Serpent O.R. took the Matrix for himself and changed into the massive Serpentor Prime. The Matrix showed Serpentor Prime the error of his ways but as he was about to commit suicide Cobra Commander tripped a device and took over Serpentor Prime's body. Moments before he crushed Arcee, a severely damaged Optimus Prime threw Hawk toward the Matrix but warned the human not to touch the artifact. Hawk did so anyway and through a quasi-mystical transfer of power Serpentor Prime was vanquished.

Later repaired by a female nursebot, Optimus went back to finishing his paperwork. A leader's job is never done. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War}}

Sensing a new, yet old, danger to planet Earth, Prime elected to send himself to earth on an investigation, and gave Hot Rod a glare when the young Autobot accused his leader of taking an unnecessary risk to atone for the death of a close friend.

Optimus Prime landed in the Himalayan Mountains with G.I. Joes [[Flint (G.I. Joe)|Flint]] and [[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]]. As they searched the area, the trio was attacked by [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] in his [[Pretender]] shell. Prime whacked him with his [[energon-axe]] and in return Bludgeon bearhugged him and coated him in metal-eating slime. Hawk, still carrying power from the Matrix, helped Prime break free. Optimus then shot his way into the hidden kingdom of [[Cobra-La]].

While they wandered through the tunnels, the Joes and Prime found cave paintings that described the last visit to Earth by the planet-eating god [[Unicron]]. They were attacked again by Bludgeon and Cobra-La minions, but were led away by a ragged [[Joe Colton]], prisoner of Cobra-La for the last 25 years. Bludgeon managed to find them again and during a second battle Prime tore open the Pretender's shell, revealing Bludgeon's robot form inside. Bludgeon tripped and dangled dangerously over a chasm, but rather than let Optimus Prime save him, Bludgeon forced Prime to drop him to his death laughing all the way down.

The Joes discovered a cavern where the people of Cobra-La were growing metal-eating spores as a last defense against Unicron. Flint and [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]] took a load of the spores into space just as Unicron appeared in Earth orbit. Prime, Hawk and Colton headed deeper into Cobra-La to rescue [[Firewall]] and kick butt. Prime was tackled and pinned by a giant bug creature, but made a dramatic recovery and tossed the bug aside. He then took the machine-hating Cobra-La leader [[Golobulus]] to task with a single punch. Flint and Cosmos released the spores, which devoured Unicron from the inside and defeated the giant Transformer before he could harm [[Earth]].

With the threat of Unicron gone, Prime relaxed with [[Eject]] and Firewall by watching some reality TV, and sighed at the banality. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon}}

===''Transformers/G.I. Joe''===
{{charstubfiction}}
=== IDW comics continuity ===
{{ongoing}}

{{note|[[Megatron Origin]] depicted that before the war, a robot that's a hybrid of the "Orion Pax" and "Optronix" designs appears listening to [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]'s speech at the funeral of [[Bumper (G1)|Bumper]] and [[Fastback]]. He is standing with [[Elita One]], [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], and a white version of himself (presumably [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], possibly even [[Dion]]). Whether this is truly the [[IDW Generation 1 continuity|IDW continuity]]'s version of pre-Prime Optimus or not remains unrevealed.}}

[[Image:SpotlightBlurr-Optimus.jpg|left|thumb|200px|There's something missing...]]

Galvanized by the death of Sentinel Prime, Optimus joined the Autobot forces under his successor [[Zeta Prime]], and was assigned to a unit commanded by the veteran [[Kup (G1)|Kup]]. During his tour of duty his unit intercepted a message reporting of a planned attempt on the Prime's life. He approached former racer [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] as a reliable means of getting the news to Zeta Prime in a hurry. The former celebrity balked, but ultimately the young soldier helped Blurr find what really drove him to race, and thus recruited him to the Autobot cause. {{storylink|Spotlight: Blurr}}

[[Image:IDWOptimus.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Freedom is the right of all sentient and heavily-armed beings.]]

An undisclosed amount of time later, Optimus would be chosen as the next Prime, and commanded the Autobot armed forces spread across the galaxy from the [[Autobot Orbital Command Hub]]. He was directly involved in the cataclysm ([[IDW timeline|just under 450 years ago]]) that reduced [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] to a dead husk, fighting alongside [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] in an attempt to stop [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]]'s rampage. Their efforts were futile, and they only survived due to Cybertron itself swallowing Thunderwing at [[Thunderhead Pass]]. Megatron was unconvinced that Thunderwing was dead, and advocated that Cybertron be destroyed to better insure that the mad Decepticon was forever destroyed. Optimus Prime refused, and threatened to stop any effort that Megatron attempted. Megatron agreed to spare the planet, but warned Prime that anything which happened afterward was on his head.

In the present, Prime received a pulsewave from [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], who was stationed under [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]'s team on Earth, saying that the Decepticon infiltration cell under [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] had broken their infiltration methods and enacted [[Infiltration protocol|siege mode]] prematurely. Soon afterward, the Autobot science vessel ''[[Calabi-Yau]]'' sent a distress signal from above Thunderhead Pass, and he ordered the [[Wrecker]]s to withdraw from [[Varas Centralus]] and meet him on Cybertron. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2|Stormbringer #2}} Thunderwing had been restored by [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] and his followers, and though the Wreckers made short work of them, the real fight would be met with Thunderwing. After the Wreckers, [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]] and [[Centurion droid]]s were unable to destroy the monster, Prime took to the field, firing massive amounts of energy at Thunderwing, forcing it to exhaust its last reserves of [[Ultra-Energon]] and, ultimately, its life. {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 4|Stormbringer #4}}

[[Image:IDWPrime Earth.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Don't crush the cameraman!]]
[[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] discovered information in Bludgeon's files about the mysterious new form of Energon found on [[Earth]]. Linking it to the pulsewave transmission from Ironhide, Prime diverted his spacecraft to Earth and called [[Nightbeat (G1)|Nightbeat]] in to assist him. {{storylink|Spotlight: Nightbeat}}. Shortly after arrival, and having undergone alteration so that he could disguise himself as an Earth truck, he slowly began to realize how unusual the situation Prowl's unit had found itself in was. {{storylink|Infiltration issue 6|Infiltration #6}} Not only had the Decepticons broken their own infiltration protocols over what Starscream had dubbed [[Ultra-Energon|Ore-13]], but after attempting to recover what appeared to be [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]'s remains, it was also evident that some of the planet's native sentient lifeforms—[[human]]s—posed a threat possibly equal to that of their old enemies. {{storylink|Escalation issue 2|Escalation #2}}

Optimus Prime, now fully filled-in on Earth's happenings, decided that they needed reinforcements. He called Nightbeat, [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]], and [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]] to come when they could. When Prowl pointed out that Megatron, in his new gun-based Earth mode, was in the breakaway Soviet state of [[Brasnya]] stirring up trouble, Prime ordered them into action.

[[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]] almost got the drop on Prime, but [[Roller]] was right behind him and took out Blitzwing with a single shot. Megatron returned to his full-size robot mode and disagreed with the quality of Prime's tea and crumpets. At last, the two rivals were going to go at it.

[[Image:Escalation5 Primedies enlightning.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Rule of thumb, Megs—if he don't turn gray, he's A-OK.]]
The fight went well at first, with Prime blowing Megatron's [[fusion cannon]] clean off. Megatron, however, tireless thanks to Ore-13, prevailed, almost beating Prime into [[stasis lock]]. {{storylink|Escalation issue 5|Escalation #5}}

However, Prime transferred his consciousness into his trailer, leading Megatron to believe him dead. Realizing that Ore-13 was the same as Ultra-Energon, Prime returned to his body in time to save his forces from the relentless Megatron, blasting him point blank in the face and dealing enough damage to the Decepticon leader to drain his power reserves, just as he did against Thunderwing. The victory was narrow, however, leaving Optimus with the daunting task of fending off an increasing enemy force without his last ace in the hole. {{storylink|Escalation issue 6|Escalation #6}}

This near-death experience had left Prime somewhat unsettled. While his consciousness was in [[infraspace]] downloading to his trailer, he sensed a presence of dread—the visage of his long-missing predecessor, [[Nova Prime]]. Looking for answers, Optimus Prime left Earth temporarily to seek an audience with [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] for answers. Once there, he found out about Nova's beliefs of how Transformers were a superior race and should remake the universe in their image, and faced down the rampaging [[Monstructor]], a legacy of Nova's tenure locked away by Omega Supreme. Then he gave his "you shouldn't have done that" speech to Omega, handed Monstructor's limbs over to Jetfire's team, and went on to have angst-ridden introspection about himself and the tarnished legacy of the [[Prime (rank)|Prime lineage]]. {{storylink|Spotlight: Optimus Prime}}

After returning to Earth, Nightbeat discovered that a human group was aware of the base's location and recommended to Prime that they move the ''[[Ark-19]]''. As preparations were underway, Prime received a message from [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] saying that Thunderwing had been stolen. [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], eager to search for Sunstreaker, suggested that they be reassigned to Earth, and Prime agreed. However, the thrashing that Prime gave Megatron had so embarrassed the Decepticon leader that he ordered in the Decepticons' living weapon, [[Sixshot]]. While moving the ''Ark-19'', Prime and the others came under fire by Sixshot, who severely damaged their ship. {{storylink|Devastation issue 1|Devastation #1}}

[[Image:Devastation4 PrimeSixshot hyperbole.jpg|left|180px|thumb|"And THAT'S for killing my brother in another timeline!"]]
Ordering [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] to get [[Jimmy Pink]] and [[Verity Carlo]] to safety, Optimus then instructed Nightbeat to upload all of ''Ark-19''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s data to ''[[Ark-32]]'' and for Prowl to activate the self-destruct sequence. {{storylink|Devastation issue 2|Devastation #2}} When ''Ark-19'' exploded, it was assumed that Optimus was on board, but all was good at the end when he appeared with [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] and the others—ready to take on Sixshot. {{storylink|Devastation issue 3|Devastation #3}} Optimus and the Autobots held Sixshot at bay, but the U.S. military ordered an air strike to destroy the alien robots. The battle was a stalemate, as Sixshot had to return to the Decepticons while the Autobots [[orbital jump]]ed just in time to avoid destruction. {{storylink|Devastation issue 4|Devastation #4}} On ''Ark-32'', after a conversation with Jetfire, Prime informed Prowl that they needed to retrieve [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]], Hot Rod and Ironhide, and leave Earth to see to another crisis. The secure facility on [[Garrus-9]] had been breached, and Prime and company needed to make sure that some of the "recent inmates" there didn't end up "in enemy hands". {{storylink|Devastation issue 5|Devastation #5}} Before leaving Earth, Optimus Prime redirected Hound's unit to rendezvous with ''Ark-32'' at Garrus-9, and told Hound to impress upon Sideswipe the importance of their mission and how he didn't leave Earth or Sunstreaker behind lightly. {{storylink|Devastation issue 6|Devastation #6}}

[[Image:DarknessPrimes.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Think he can go one series without having a near-death experience?]]
Optimus Prime and Prowl met with [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and Jetfire on Garrus-9 and discussed the prisoners' breakout, and that a surviving Decepticon had been tortured. Maximus and Jetfire gave each other a guilty glance. Prime left Maximus in charge and returned with Prowl to the ''Ark-32''. Meanwhile, [[Dead Universe]] resident [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] attacked Hound's crew, but they received help from Ultra Magnus and drove Cyclonus to escape to [[Corata-Vaz]]. There, he activated the [[Nega-Core]] and fought with Magnus and Hound's crew, whom had followed him. In desperation, Cyclonus activated the Nega-Core's guardian—Thunderwing. Using the distraction, Cyclonus escaped but Magnus sent another tracker after him. All this was reported to Optimus Prime on the ''Ark-32'', who recognized that this had something to do with his infraspace encounter in Brasnya. Prime ordered Jetfire to summon the Wreckers to find out what Thunderwing is guarding. {{storylink|Spotlight: Cyclonus}}

The prison soon came under attack from Nova Prime. Rather then watch his soldiers be slaughtered by the undead monster, Optimus Prime ordered a retreat and faced Nova alone. Announcing his new title of Nemesis Prime, Optimus's predecessor explained the nature of the [[Darkness (G1)|Darkness]] before unleashing a portion on the Autobot leader. Shattered, Prime collapsed onto his hands and knees as Nemesis loomed. {{storylink|Spotlight: Doubledealer}}

[[Image:OptimusdeadNemesis.jpg|left|200px|thumb|"Optimus! I've come to help y- oh. Sorted, then?"]]

Unexpectedly for Nemesis Prime, the Darkness seemed to be more interested in the younger Prime and sought to be passed onto Optimus. Nemesis wasn't about to let go of the power he commanded, and savagely attacked Optimus Prime, whose attempts to reason fell on deaf ears. Just as Nemesis Prime seemed victorious, [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] attacked the fallen Prime from behind, killing him. Nemesis's death allowed the Darkness to finally enter Optimus, who tried to fight against its evil to no avail. Galvatron offered the Autobot a choice: kill himself by plunging into the [[Solar pool]], or pass on the Darkness to Galvatron, who had coveted the Darkness for so long. Optimus seemed to willingly do so, but just as he passed on the Darkness, he threw the surprised Galvatron into the solar pool. As Optimus gazed upon the dead body of Nemesis, he told himself he could not mourn the elder Prime's death, as Nova truly died long ago. {{storylink|Spotlight: Sideswipe}}

[[Image:AHMPrimecritical.jpg|right|250px|thumb|So he's dying. [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|This shouldn't be a problem by now]].]]
A year later, Optimus Prime combined his Autobot squad with another squad. Having received word of a supposed Decepticon power struggle, Prime led the Autobots to a location where Starscream's "group" was, only to be ambushed by a unified Decepticon force. Though they managed to briefly turn the tide, Devastator's appearance made the difference, which enabled Megatron to rip the Matrix of Leadership from Prime's chest. Prime was dealt another blow (mentally) when the Autobots were told that they were sold out to a traitor in their ranks (who was later revealed to be [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]). {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 8|All Hail Megatron #8}} The Autobots were led to a space bridge, where Prime, who was the last to go, used his remaining energy to destroy the machine. Unfortunately, this heroic act left Prime in critical condition. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 7|All Hail Megatron #7}} With this defeat, the Autobots were forced to leave Earth to the Decepticons. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 1|All Hail Megatron #1}}

After Prime's unit met up with Kup's unit, and after dealing with the Swarm and Sideswipe's sacrifice to save them, Ratchet and Wheeljack managed to bring Prime back online (with the Energon from the ''[[Trion|Trion]]'') in time to smooth over an Autobot argument. As the others excitedly welcomed him back, Prime makes a speech about how he was proud of them, and that he wanted to win the war. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 9|All Hail Megatron #9}}. After the Autobots recovered and prepared for a final stand against the Swarm, Prime had a brief chat with Ironhide (to which Ironhide admitted to secretly hating him at first sight at the start of the Great War), then prepared for the Swarm's onslaught. When they came, the Autobots fought back, but they were quickly outnumbered by the thousands. Thankfully, Omega Supreme arrived and saved them from certain doom. After Omega briefly told them about his arrival, Prime orders him to transform and transport the Autobots back to Earth. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 10|All Hail Megatron #10}}

Arriving at New York City while the Decepticons were fending off attacks by an European air squad, Optimus and the Autobots began to engage the Decepticons again. After a bit of fighting, and with the threat of Devasator, Optimus ordered Omega Supreme to take Devastator away from the city and fight him elsewhere. Optimus Prime encountered Megatron, and the two engaged in a bit of viewpoint bantering, mostly about the way their war is now changing and the fact that the humans that Prime had "sworn to protect" were about to drop a nuclear bomb on the city. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 11|All Hail Megatron #11}}

After that, they engaged in a fierce battle, while trading more banter. At first, Megatron gets the advantage, but just as he is about to leave with the Decepticons and take the Matrix with him, a shot from [[Shockwave (G1)|an experimental weapon made from a Transformer]] fired by [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|a brave human]] hit him it the face. With this, Optimus grabs Megatron's fusion cannon and slams it against Megatron's head, brining him down in defeat. Before Optimus can truly finish him off, though, Starscream intervened and, after exchanging words, takes off with Megatron and the Matrix. Faced with the decision to go after them or save New York from nuclear devastation, it was rendered moot when Thundercracker, who had grown disenchanted with the way the Decepticons went after the humans, blew up the bomb at the cost of his own life (thanks to an angry Skywarp). The war over for the moment, Prime meets with Spike Witwicky, thanks him for helping the Autobots out, and would like some way to help the humans in return. However, Spike tells him that they had brought their war to Earth, and that any chance of human and Transformer relations was now long gone. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 12|All Hail Megatron #12}}

{{charstubfiction}}

{{note|The events of ''Spotlight: Mirage'' possibly take place in an alternate/unknown continuity.}}

Optimus Prime commanded one of the last remaining pockets of Autobot resistance, hiding out in the [[Pegasus Star Cluster]]. While awaiting the arrival of Bumblebee's team, he and Hound tried to work out how to convert the [[Zodiac Energy]] for their consumption. "Bumblebee's" arrival proved to be their downfall, as it was really the self-serving mercenary [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]], who destroyed the bunker security systems, allowing the Decepticons inside. Optimus Prime refused to surrender during the ensuing struggle, until Mirage used the critically-injured Jetfire as a hostage, forcing the Prime to back down. When Megatron betrays Mirage's word and orders the execution of the Autobots, Optimus Prime tried to reason with the mercenary, appealing to his former friendship with Hound... until Mirage killed Hound in defiance. Furious, Optimus Prime broke free of his captors and tackled Mirage into the Zodiac Energy chamber. {{storylink|Spotlight: Mirage}}

===''Hearts of Steel''===
[[Image:HeartsofSteel_1_Prime_Bumblebee.jpg|thumb|left|200px|]]

The Autobots and the Decepticons came to [[Earth|a distant world]] in the grip of an ice age. Assuming alternate modes based upon the [[Dinosaur|dominant (though doomed) indigenous creatures]] of this planet, they continued their ancient, unending war. However, the Autobots, with their energy levels dangerously low, withdrew from combat as the world grew colder. They sought refuge in a deep cavern and entered [[stasis lock]], awaiting the day when surface conditions changed to better suit their operation. Millions of years later, Bumblebee was awoken by the hammering of humans working on a rail line. He briefly considered awakening Optimus Prime, but thought better of it. After discovering the world had changed significantly, Ratchet thought there was no reason to awaken Prime. {{storylink|Hearts of Steel issue 1}} When Bumblebee discovered the Decepticons were once again active on this world, Ratchet and Prowl agreed that the Autobots must intervene, but again decided out of rousing Optimus from his slumber. {{Storylink|Hearts of Steel issue 2|Hearts of Steel #2}}

{{Note|Optimus Prime appears very briefly in the first few pages, in his "Ice Age Wars" body (we only see him in robot mode, but his altmode is a brachiosaurus<ref>[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=d5d311674e796c81d010d26ac751389b&showtopic=10074&st=20&p=266183&#entry266183 Allspark forums post] by [[Guido Guidi]], August 15th, 2006</ref>. He spends most of the story in stasis lock. [[:Image:Opthos.jpg|Unused concept art]] depicts him as transforming into a locomotive engine.}}
{{-}}

===''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comics===

{{storylink|Henkei! Henkei! volume 1}} {{storylink|Henkei! Henkei! volume 2}} {{storylink|Henkei! Henkei! volume 7}}

{{charstubfiction}}

===''Comic Bun Bun Henkei! Henkei!'' comic===

{{storylink|Enter! The Transformers}} {{storylink|Enter the Emperor of Destruction!}} {{storylink|Kingdom of Giants}} {{storylink|The Enemy from the Arctic}} {{storylink|Wataru's Power}} {{storylink|Optimus Prime's Secret}} {{storylink|Time of Resurrection}} {{storylink|Creation! The New Emperor of Destruction!!}} {{storylink|The Threat of Galvatron}}

{{charstubfiction}}

===Alternity===

In 2007, the Optimus Prime of [[universal stream]] Primax 109.0 Beta encountered a mysterious messenger from another world: another incarnation of himself from the multiverse, who left him with a warning. Two years hence, Megatron would bring the terrifying super-dimensional lifeform known as the "Beast of Time", [[Hytherion]], into their dimension to destroy Earth. The only thing that could battle Hytherion was the power of the super-evolved multi-dimensional race of Cybertronians known as the [[Alternity (species)|Alternity]]. Prime agreed that when the danger appeared, he would join the Alternity in the fight.

Sure enough, in 2009, when Hytherion's colossal claw-marks appeared on planets throughout the solar system, Prime's other-dimensional incarnation returned, bringing with him an [[Auto-avatar]] with which Prime fused. In that instant, he was reborn as part of the Alternity, a manifold being who encompassed all the different incarnations of Optimus Prime through the multiverse at once. Prime reached his hands heaveanward and peeled back the layers of reality, exposing the gargantuan fanged maw of Hytherion looming above the Autobots. {{storylink|From Here to Alternity}}

===''Robot Heroes'' comic===
{{comingsoon}}
{{storylink|I Am Optimus Prime (Robot Heroes)|I Am Optimus Prime}}

===Commercial appearances===
Optimus Prime has appeared in more [[Commercial|television commercials]] than any other Transformer... just like with everything else. He has been voiced by Peter Cullen in every animation segment in which he's had a speaking role.

[[Image:Toycommercial-firstPrime.jpg|right|thumb|My wheels don't disappear!]]

* He was one of the featured characters in the first ever appearance of the Transformers anywhere, an advertisement for the first issue of [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|the Generation 1 comic]]. He arrives in the midst of a desert battle as the Decepticons attacked a power plant on Earth, driving to back up his troops in defending it. He strikes a rather iconic pose as he transforms and fires, which would be replicated and copied numerous times in the early years of the franchise. This first commercial used nonfinal versions of the characters' [[character model]]s; Optimus Prime, for example, still had wheels on his legs. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9-7RjhFzpM]

* In a commercial for the [[Triple Changer]]s, Optimus confronts Astrotrain on a desert battlefield, but the Triple-Changer escapes under fire from other Autobots. Shortly afterward, Prime uses Perceptor's microscope mode to examine a fragment of Decepticon battle armor. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WssZjIsUIU]

* Prime and Jazz are shown fighting Megatron in the desert in an ad for the 1985 cars, whom he summons to help out with the battle. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WssZjIsUIU]

* Prime narrates two commercials around the time of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', describing the action as [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] battles [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]], and [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] and [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] take on the [[Sharkticon (G1)|Sharkticons]]. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-10pud7DY]

[[Image:Toycommercial-PowermasterOptimusPrime.jpg|right|thumb|An integral part of Powermaster Prime's transformation is Joyride shooting lightning bolts through his pointed finger.]]

* Prime was prominently featured in the ad for the first comic issue featuring the [[Powermaster]]s. On the rocky plains where practically every Transformer battle ever seems to happen, Prime arrives in his Powermaster body to back up three of his troops against Dreadwind and Darkwing. He's shown combining with [[Hi-Q]] and transforming, attacking with his trailer's battle station mode, then combining with the trailer to continue the attack. Who wins? Find out in [[People Power!|Marvel Comics]]! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voX_KNNxNCI]

[[Image:OptimusQuickswitchCommercial.jpg|right|thumb|Optimus Prime is so giving, he even gives other Transformers time in his commercials.]]

* Prime also features briefly in [[Quickswitch]]'s ad; in a battle on the moon, Quickswitch transforms to gun mode and is wielded by Powermaster Optimus Prime.

* An abbreviated ad for Powermaster Prime uses footage from both the Marvel Comic and Quickswitch commercials.

* Prime's Powermaster body shows up yet again in the [[Classic Pretender|Pretender Classic]]s ad. He comes under attack in the darkened streets of the city, prompting the narrator to explain that he needs the greatest Transformers ever! Prime then welcomes back Bumblebee and Jazz in their Pretender forms. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mahbq-FnSPY]

* Powermaster Prime and [[Piranacon]] are the representatives from each faction that [[Doubledealer]] doublecrosses! Everyone wonders who that guy is that Prime's talking to... He looks kinda suspicious!

* Optimus features prominently in the first [[Action Master]] commercial; he's shown surrounded by a circle of his troops, and challenges them to give up their transforming powers to become faster, stronger, more alive! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeNf3jQ1zdw]

* A stock intro was used for several Micromaster commercials, with Optimus opening his fist to reveal a Micromaster city within.

[[Image:Hotrodpatrolcommercial.jpg|right|thumb|Prime wants to know if they can transform, because he sure can't!]]

* A similar sequence in another Micromaster has Prime opening his fist to find the [[Hot Rod Patrol]] inside. He and Jazz check them out, and Optimus wonders if they can transform.

* In an ad for the Micromaster micro bases, a battle rages outside an Autobot base, and Prime watches impassively as Bumblebee and Jazz pull two [[Interstellar shuttle|captured]] [[Attack Copter|vehicles]] into the base. Prime is the first to notice that the vehicles are transforming and shooting things.

* Prime and [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] are the stars of the first ''[[Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'' commercial, animated with [[Computer-generated imagery|CGI]]. Prime is shown driving down a road in his ''Generation 2'' colored truck mode. He rocket-launches up into the air to transform, then has a brutal fight with Ramjet. Despite getting a hole blasted in his chest, he wins the fight and fires his gun into the air in triumph. Non-speaking.

* Prime also is shown briefly in a commercial for the new Megatron tank toy. He transforms and finds his head in a target crosshairs. In the subsequent toy segment, Prime's toy is shown getting completely trashed by that of Megatron. Non-speaking.

* And finally, Prime got his own rap segment. He's shown in his Combat toy body, waiting for Megatron as he attacks a human subdivision. Prime converts to robot form, blows up Megatron's weapon at point blank range, and slugs it out with him. Apparently emerging victorious, is next shown sitting next to an identical truck, which the live-action kid mistakes for the real thing. The real Prime then transforms and picks up the kid, inspecting the human with his cold, lifeless, flashing red optics. Prime is once again voiced by Peter Cullen in this commercial.

Prime also appeared in commercials for ''Transformers'' products other than the toys themselves...

* In the ad for [[Coleco]]'s [[Power Cycle]], Optimus Prime shoots ''at'' a child riding the titular cycle, but misses. This footage is recycled from the advertisement for the comic.

* Prime delivers a load of shoes to schoolchildren in a South American ad for [[Bata]]'s licensed ''Transformers'' footwear.

==Toys==
{{main|Optimus Prime (G1)/toys}}

==Merchandise==
:''Main article: [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Merchandise|Merchandise]]''

==Notes==
* According to [[Bob Budiansky]], longtime comics writer [[Denny O'Neil]] named Optimus Prime prior to Budiansky being brought on to the ''Transformers'' project.

* Optimus Prime's Japanese name is "Convoy", which is named after his original name "Battle Convoy" in the [[Diaclone]] toyline, because the name "Optimus Prime" is difficult for Japanese kids to remember and pronounce. <ref>'''Figure-Oh''' No. 114</ref>

*According to an early ''[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Universe]]''-style profile published in ''[[The Transformers Comics Magazine]]'', Optimus Prime's "official" nicknames were at one point considered to be "Autobot Commander", "Chief", "Big Boss" and "Roller". As far as it is known, no piece of fiction has ever purposely addressed him using these nicknames, though it's a fair bet he's been called "chief" at least once or twice anyway.

* He [[Letters page (Marvel UK)|allegedly]] hates the music of [[wikipedia:Mötley_Crüe|Mötley Crüe]].

* According to the staff of ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'', Optimus Prime became a space explorer in the [[Beast Era]].<ref>[[Beast Wars Universe]] ISBN 978-4766938005</ref>

[[Image:Optimusprime-mom.jpg|right|125px|thumb|Prime's mom knows how to write in cursive.]]
* By the time Optimus Prime appeared in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', his 3D model from ''Beast Wars'' had apparently been lost, leading the animators to use a faceplated Optimus Primal head as a quick replacement to save time and budget.

* Aside from occasionally having Alpha Trion as a father figure, Optimus Prime may have a mother! In an advertisement for [[Pepsi Convoy]] that shows him in a refrigerator (along with [[Destron Pizza]]), a note attached to a nearby piece of Tupperware reads:

:''Dear Convoy''
:''Warm it before you eat''
:''Mom''

:Although the ad itself is for Pepsi Convoy, he is a separate character, and it can be assumed that the note was left for Convoy/Optimus Prime himself.

* The first wave of Dreamwave posters in 2001 identified Optimus Prime as [http://www.comicden.com/merch/posters.htm "Captimus Primus"], which is tantalizingly close to making some sort of sense.

* According to EJ Su, Optimus Prime's [[Holomatter|Holomatter avatar]] is modeled after [[wikipedia:Ulysses_S._Grant|Ulysses S. Grant]].<ref>[http://www.protodepot.com/archive/2007_11_01_archive.html Idea: Holomatter Projection]</ref>

==External links==
* [http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Optimus_Prime Optimus Prime's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

* [http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Optimus_Prime_PM Powermaster Optimus Prime's Universe profile at NTFA.net]

== Footnotes ==
<references />

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternators]]
[[Category:Alternity characters]]
[[Category:Attacktix]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Beast Wars characters]]
[[Category:Classics characters]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:Convention exclusives]]
[[Category:E-Hobby]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category:Ghosts]]
[[Category:Go-Bots]]
[[Category:Headmasters characters]]
[[Category:Henkei! Henkei! characters]]
[[Category:Kiss Players characters]]
[[Category:Machine Wars characters]]
[[Category:Mail order exclusives]]
[[Category:Matrix bearers]]
[[Category:Multi-component Transformers]]
[[Category:Non-Triple Changer third mode]]
[[Category:Powermasters]]
[[Category:Return of Convoy characters]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Robot Masters characters]]
[[Category:Rulers of Cybertron]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Toys "R" Us exclusives]]
[[Category:Zombies]]

Talk:Frenzy (Movie)

2009-08-06T22:43:20Z

Fleb: /* "differentiated spark" */ new section

This page totally needs the picture of him reading over that dude's shoulder. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

:I'll snap it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

: Aw. The reading picture needs to stay as the main pic. It's the best! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:: I'll agree, if it could be just a bit bigger. [[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 05:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
== Wikipedia article ==

It seems the people at Wikipedia jump the gun at everything... Josh Duhamel made some weird comments about a "Soundbyte" character turning into a "12-inch iPod" in the movie, and now every single dorkwad is insisting that this is canon and that he's a real gear TF present in the movie in spite of the fact that the full cast of TFs in the movie has been pretty much confirmed... some of you smarter guys need to help set them straight. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers_%28film%29#Real_Gear]

: Maybe after I finish pounding these nails through my dick. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

== Size...? ==

How big is Frenzy supposed to be, anyway? Some sources suggest 7 feet tall (in scale with Deluxe Barricade) but in one of the trailers he looked positively diminutive, at arou 4 feet. Is this due to the fact that several of his parts slide and extend and he can drastically change size, or does he just stay one size? [[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 05:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

:Movie novelization explicitly says he's 4.5 feet tall. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

== GLU Mobile Game question ==

Is this Frenzy? From the Glu [http://www.transformersmobile.com/ mobile game].

I'm trying to figure out if it's a generic base on him, or if it's a new kind of enemy unit.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/glu_enemy.png

== Cybertronian Language. ==

Since the link is here, I'll ask here. We have a page for [[Cybertronix]] now. Should the movie language (about which there's definately material for a decent article) go there, as it IS the only named Cybertronian language or on a seperate, generic page? Should Cybertronix itself be stricken and reduced to a sub section of a larger page? Thoughts? -- ZacWilliam (not loged in).

== Frenzy inspiration (hommage) to gremlins? ==

I have heard some people say that the characterization of Frenzy is based on the Gremlins (an other movie whose Steven Spielberg was the executive producer) and that there was even a mogwaï in a truck somewhere in the movie (I don't remember it, tough) do you think it is pertinent enough to be mentioned?--[[User:GUIGUI|GUIGUI]] 20:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
: I really don't think so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
:I would really not at all be surprised if the "mogwai in a truck" people recall is just the big Furby image on the side of a truck. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 21:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
::Yeah, it's most certainly the Furby he was referring to.

== Hard to Kill ==

According to the trivia note added by [[User:84.203.113.222|84.203.113.222]], the whole bit about every part of Frenzy being alive (and frequently switching alt modes) is from Titan Magazines. If this can be confirmed, then the note needs clean-up, and perhaps the reiteration Sipher removed can be reinstated (also with clean-up). If it can't be confirmed, the note needs removal, obviously.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:Confirmed the arse off it. Although I thought it originated with the Dorling Kindersley [[Transformers: The Movie Guide|movie guide]], myself, and was just being reiterated in the Titan magazine, since the magazine's character profiles are just reworked versions of the ones that appeared in the book. But I don't own the book, so I don't know for sure... - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Fair enough. I'd definitely make sure that it's given a Reference, as the Titan comics aren't exactly widespread information-wise o'er here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== Image format ==
Okay okay, I realize that in general, we go with a left-right-left-right positioning of images. That's the standard, and yeah, it works fine when the images are comparatively few and integrated into the body of the text.

However... compare [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Frenzy_%28Movie%29&direction=next&oldid=137430#Trivia| this this trivia section] (images alternating left-right) to [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Frenzy_%28Movie%29&direction=prev&oldid=138170#Trivia| this one] (images stacked on the right). Can you honestly tell me that the alternating sides version looks ''better''? It seems here, and in some scattered other instances, we're rigidly adhering to a standard without regard for how well it actually works. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:I think I prefer the second version better as well. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 20:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::I prefer the first one. I've seen a lot better examples of where left-right images makes things look bad. But here, it's flattering. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::The first one doesn't have huge ugly gaps of blank space. BIG plus. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Buh? I see just the opposite on my screen -- lots of ugly gaps under the alternating sides version, none when they're stacked. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::::I think this is a resolution thing. Although I DO see a big chunk of whitespace under the first bulletpoint, even on the stacked version. Perhaps to remove a picture and fix that, I might ask... what exactly is the final image, the render of Frenzy's head, illustrating all the way down there? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::I don't know if it's the resolution my screen it set at, meaning that I can see it and other people can't, but I'm looking at the first one, and I'm seeing half-bullet points peeking out from undeath the pictures, and double-bullet points, and stuff that's just totally misaligned all over the place. Ugh. Lee. So... the second one gets my vote, then. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::A compromise between the two positions would be to remove the two seemingly pointless headshots. They don't particularly add much, and it would remove the gigantic whitespace if the images are stacked to the right. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

== "differentiated spark" ==

Someone on [[Talk:Waspinator (BW)]] mentioned a while back that Frenzy had a "differentiated" spark (which apparently helps with surviving decapitation). Anyone else heard of that? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:43, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

A Deceptacon Raider in King Arthur's Court

2009-08-06T22:31:52Z

Fleb: on screen title

#REDIRECT [[A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court]]

Ultra Magnus: Forced Fushion!

2009-08-06T22:31:06Z

Fleb: the on-screen title

#REDIRECT [[Ultra Magnus: Forced Fusion!]]

Spark

2009-08-06T22:25:33Z

Fleb: /* Absence of spark */

{{disambig3|Spark}}
{{featured}}

[[Image:Sparks.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Botanica is a Bellarian.]]
A '''spark''' is the lifeforce, or soul, of a [[Transformer]]. Each spark is part of the essence of [[Primus]] himself.

The spark is a physical entity which is safeguarded inside a Transformer body. If something harms the spark beyond repair, it is "extinguished" and returns to the [[Allspark]] (or sometimes the [[Well of All Sparks]]). The Transformer is then considered dead. A Transformer is able to survive an enormous amount of physical damage. As long as the spark is intact, it is possible to repair or rebuild the body and restore the spark to it.

{{quote|When a Spark goes online, there is great joy. When one is extinguished, the universe weeps.|[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] being all mystical|"[[The Spark]]"}}

==Establishment in fiction==
[[Image:Spark.gif|left|180px|thumb|Animation of a typical spark. Shiny!]]
The concept of the spark as currently understood was introduced to the Transformers mythos in the ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' episode "[[The Spark]]". In this episode, little is explained except that each spark is unique and that every "Cybertron" (here meaning, essentially, "Cybertronian") has one.

The later episode "[[Possession]]" dealt with the idea of sparks, but the spark in question—that of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]—is established as being aberrant, and thus the properties it displays are not necessarily characteristic of sparks in general. However, "Possession" was the first time it was claimed that characters from the Generation 1 series also had sparks, rather than sparks existing in ''Beast Wars'' only. Sparks remained prominent throughout ''Beast Wars'', and events in seasons two and three further established the [[retcon]] that Generation 1 Transformers all possessed sparks.

In ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', sparks became central to the story, as [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had abducted the sparks from every Transformer on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Megatron's own spark displayed unusual behaviors in this series, and again, it is probable these behaviors do not apply to all sparks. Still, ''Beast Machines'' contributed more information about sparks to the [[canon]] than any other series.

The [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]] occasionally referenced a device called a [[laser core]], which seemingly has a similar function to a spark. The tech spec bio for the [[Beast Rider]] [[Mechatron]] says that he is "outfitted with an upgraded spark-capture claw that can tear out the entire laser core of any Transformer defender." This implies, as some fans had speculated prior to Mechatron's release, that the laser core may be some sort of housing for the spark.

Since the introduction of the spark concept in ''Beast Wars'', sparks have become an integral part of many Transformers fictions. They have been featured in new [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]-based series and in later, entirely new [[continuity family|continuity families]] such as the [[Unicron Trilogy]] and [[Transformers Animated]].

Although the word "spark" does appear offhandedly in some [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''Generation 1'' comic]] stories (a "spark of life", a "life spark", and the phrases [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|"Let no spark remain flickering in a single Autobot microchip!"]] and [[Pretender to the Throne!|"For as long as a spark exists within a single Mechabot..."]]), these were clearly simply metaphorical statements. They may be retroactively seen as referring to the contemporary concept of a Transformer's spark, but did not establish anything of the sort on their own.

==Properties of sparks==
[[Image:Spark colors.jpg|right|180px|thumb|The sparks of the reformatted Maximals took on unusual colors. Before their final battle with Megatron, the sparks became visible within their bodies. They also lift and separate.]]
As seen in the image at the top of this article, sparks normally appear as semitransparent blue balls of energy with a pulsating center composed of smaller, blue spheres. The center spheres are engulfed in a reddish glow. An ever-changing pattern of "electricity"-like lines travels around the surface and through the interior. However, in ''Beast Machines'', the sparks of the Maximal heroes who had been [[Reformatting|reformatted]] took on different colors (for example, [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]]'s was green). This was first visible in "[[Revelations Part I: Discovery]]". At the end of that series, after being infused with extra power from the Matrix (cf. [[Allspark]]), their sparks became visible, as if parts of their torsos were translucent.

[[Beast Era]] Transformers seem to have permanent "spark chambers" within their chassis where the spark can be seen simply by opening the chamber. Older Transformers within the same G1/Beast [[continuity family]], such as those who lived before the [[Great Upgrade]], do not seem to have this feature in most continuities. The G1 ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' guidebook from [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] specifically states that a spark is normally "suffused" throughout a Transformer's body rather than residing in any particular place. It may be that this is also true after the Great Upgrade, and that the spark chamber is merely a protected location for the spark to coalesce when needed. Meanwhile, making things more confusing, the cutaway diagrams of G1 Optimus Prime and Megatron in ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' include spark chambers.

In the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon, there were two cases of Beast-era Transformers temporarily housing the sparks of G1-era Transformers in their own bodies while still housing their own sparks. In both cases, this resulted in the Beastie undergoing a mutation of sorts into a more powerful body: [[Optimus Primal]], upon taking the spark of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], grew into his Optimal Optimus body; and Megatron, upon taking the spark of the [[Megatron (G1)|original Megatron]] obtained his dragon form. However, based on the information from the series, there is no basis for determining whether this phenomenon is a result of a single body housing two sparks, a Beast-era body housing a G1-era spark, a body being implanted with an especially "powerful" spark (like those of Optimus Prime and Megatron could conceivably be), or some combination of these. When the disembodied spark of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] had earlier possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], the only physical change was the body's allegiance emblems shifting from Predacon to Decepticon. (The later ''Beast Wars'' comic miniseries ''[[The Gathering]]'' implies that G1 sparks may be intrinsically more powerful than Beast-era sparks.)

Although Transformer memories and personalities are generally treated as if they are stored within the Transformers' computer brains, repeated canonical instances have established that a spark will (or can) hold all of an individual's memories, along with their "essence" or personality. Further, there is some evidence that sparks may even retain records of the Transformer's previous bodies (such as when Optimal Optimus, whose body originated with a [[blank]] [[protoform]], regressed into a copy of the gorilla body Primal wore at the beginning of the Beast Wars). A Transformer's behavior can be modified through programming of their mechanical body (referred to as a [[shell program]]), but this is always a struggle between the programming and the "true" nature of the spark within. It may be that over long periods of time, a spark may begin to internalize some aspects of a programmed personality.

Many Transformers, such as [[Sky Lynx (G1)|G1 Sky Lynx]], [[Omega Supreme (G1)|G1 Omega Supreme]] and the [[Duocon|Duocons]], simultaneously inhabit multiple mechanical bodies or components. The character bio for [[Magmatron]] mentions this ability of his, and categorizes his spark as a "mitotic spark" which is able of splitting and sharing itself between his three beast modes. It is unknown whether other multiple-bodied Transformers also possess mitotic sparks or if they are examples of something more mundane such as simple remote control.

Some Transformers are able to sense and communicate with the sparks of other Transformers through a process that appears analogous to telepathy. According to dialog from "[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse]]", this ability is related to the sparks' mutual connection to the Allspark. Disembodied sparks are sometimes able to communicate through this same method. (See [[#Disembodied_sparks|below]].)

The radiation emitted by [[Energon (fuel)|energon]] crystals is harmful to sparks, even when protected within a Transformer's body. Certain body types are better able to shield the spark from energon radiation. For example, the flesh-like beast modes adopted by the crews of the [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] and ''[[Darksyde]]'' provided essentially 100% protection, allowing activity in environments that were practically forests of energon crystal, so long as those involved remained in beast mode. Direct contact between crystalline energon and a spark is highly dangerous.

In the ''Beast Machines'' episode "[[Spark of Darkness]]", [[Rattrap]] describes Megatron's disembodied spark as a ball of [[Electron|electrons]]. He goes on to say that normal sparks contain a large number of [[Positron|positrons]]. Based on his dialogue, it is possible, but not certain, that sparks are composed ''entirely'' of positrons. Rattrap also indicates, in "Revelations Part I", that when a spark is extinguished, carbon scoring is typically left on or within the Transformer's chassis.

[[Image:Revelations3 Nightscream spark.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Nightscream's hands don't seem to touch the spark itself while pushing on it. Mind you, wouldn't you recoil from the guy too?]]
Regardless of their composition, sparks are not insubstantial energy, but have some sort of physical aspect. This is clearly demonstrated in, again, "Revelations Part III", when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is seen attempting to push Blackarachnia's spark back into her body. His hands press against some sort of surface (or perhaps merely a force field, in which case the spark could be entirely energy) which is above the visible surface of her spark. Later in the series, in "Spark of Darkness", Megatron's spark is also shown to have physicality. Further back, in ''Beast Wars'', the spark of Rampage/Protoform X would respond to being "crushed" by Megatron by flattening slightly inside its energon-lined carrying case. And even the spark of G1 Megatron was "grabbed" physically by a tentacle-like appendage of BW Megatron's. While some of these examples may be special cases, as they deal with sparks that have unusual properties, those properties are unique to each spark. The weight of evidence, then, is in favor of sparks being at least partially substantial.

In the [[Energon (cartoon)|''Energon'' cartoon]], sparks were shown to have the ability to be somehow augmented by Primus to become a [[Combination Spark]]. This allowed two Autobots to [[powerlinx]] together into a new form, allowing one Autobot to take command of the fused body while the "pants" remained dormant. Without the Combination Spark, a powerlinx between two normal Transformers could not be completed. It is not stated whether the combiner teams [[Constructicon Maximus]] and [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] also possessed Combination Sparks or if their ability to combine has some other origin.

==Disembodied sparks==
Sparks are able to exist outside of a Transformer body, but the parameters of this phenomenon are largely unclear. In is unknown for how long a spark can survive under such conditions, although they are vulnerable to damage in this state. It is also unknown whether a disembodied spark is "conscious" and aware of its surroundings, or whether it is capable of moving under its own power. (There are unusual cases, as described under [[#Aberrant_sparks|Aberrant sparks]].)

It is hard to imagine how a spark could be aware of its surroundings when stripped of all sensory mechanisms. Indeed, in "Revelations Part III: Apocalypse", while Blackarachnia's spark was outside of her body, her consciousness did not remain in the "real world". Instead, she experienced a conversation with [[Optimus Primal]]—not a hallucination—which took place on an abstract "higher plane of existence," perhaps within the Allspark itself.

Most of the disembodied sparks in ''Beast Machines'' drift slowly and largely directionlessly. In many other cases, sparks seem to move with some sort of intent. However, aside from attempts of sparks to re-enter their "home" bodies, these are conceivably all "special cases" and may not be generalizable. In one example, the sparks of [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] are seen following [[Tigerhawk]] to Earth in "[[Other Victories]]". While their sparks appear normal when this occurs, they later merge into a single white spark and then inhabit the (then-empty) Tigerhawk body. This is not normal spark behavior and may be related to the time they spent seemingly in stasis with the [[Vok]]. Also, in "Revalations Part III", when Blackarachnia becomes panicked during her telepathic conversation with Primal, her spark begins moving erratically and has to be chased down by Nightscream. However, it is unclear whether the spark was moving ''with intent''—especially since Blackarachnia's consciousness was portrayed as still being on a higher plane—or simply zigzagging randomly. And, again, a reformatted spark may be different from a normal spark anyway.

==IDW's sparks==
[[Image:KupsSpark.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Save the Spark. Save the World.]]
In [[Spotlight: Kup]], [[Kup (G1)|Kup]]'s sparkhousing is unstable due to age and radiation poisoning. He finally experiences sparkcore stabilizer failure, which threatens to blow him up. [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] saves him by extending a forcefield around the crashing spark. Later, Kup is shown in a C/R chamber, fitted with a placeholder powercore to maintain his spark.

Later, [[Spotlight: Arcee]] would explain that the Autobots kept Decepticon prisoners in spark stasis, which apparently entails actually removing the sparks from their casings, separating the spark from the body.

[[Image:SpotlightArcee Garrus-9 inmates.jpg|left|400px|thumb|Reminds me of the reptile cages at the zoo...except less stinky .]]
Not all prisoners underwent this process. For Monstructor, it was noted that the Autobots couldn't break through the destructive programming far enough to rehabilitate/reform the sparks (as per Optimus Prime's orders), and as such, haven't pulled the sparks from the frames.

Arcee found this limbo peaceful, but was later reunited with her body. To control her behavior, a "g-force crush" device was installed on or in her spark casing and could be operated via remote control.

==Absence of spark==

Strangely, it is possible for both Transformers and related mechanical entities to remain online and sentient despite the ''lack'' of a spark.

The first example would be the original [[Diagnostic Drone]] in ''Beast Machines''. While simply being a robotic aid and having no spark, it showed a full range of emotions, the ability to reason, and could be consulted by Megatron. In ''Animated'', first [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] and later [[Starscream clone|his clones]] each substituted a natural spark with an [[AllSpark fragment]]. Titan's tie-in comics, meanwhile, would reveal that comic-original character [[Afterburn]] was really a sparkless drone, despite having shown emotion, initiative and thought beforehand.

These instances raise questions about how necessary a spark ''really'' is, and what properties it bestows that are genuinely unique.

It should also be noted that when Afterburn was revealed to have had no spark, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] ''immediately'' wrote him off as not having been a "real" bot and viewed it as pointless to mark Afterburn's death. Similarly, nobody seemed bothered by the Starscream clones dying or found it notable that Starscream had created beings whose sole purpose was to be suicide bombers. Cybertronian orthodoxy, it would seem, views the presence of a spark as the true indicator of life, with emotion and sentience being seen as irrelevant.

{{-}}

==Aberrant sparks==
Some sparks have exhibited properties or behaviors that do not seem to be generalizable to other sparks.

===Starscream===
As established in the ''Beast Wars'' episodes "[[Possession]]" and "[[Bad Spark]]", Starscream possesses a "mutant" immortal spark. Even when his body is destroyed, his spark is not extinguished. This explanation retcons the appearance of Starscream's ghost in some season three episodes from the G1 cartoon; the "ghost" was in fact Starscream's disembodied spark.

Starscream's spark was able to move under its own power and seemingly travelled not just across space from Cybertron to [[Earth]], but backwards through time from 2006 to human prehistory. It may be that the time travel was accomplished by "falling" through the [[transwarp]] hole left by the ''Axalon'' and ''Darksyde'' when they arrived on prehistoric Earth—[[Depth Charge]]'s ship arrived there by that method later in the series—but this is uncertain.

Additionally, Starscream's spark was able to take possession of other Transformers simply by entering their bodies. While in another body, Starscream's will completely dominates that of his host. When Starscream possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], Waspinator's voice even changed to sound like Starscream's, and the [[Insignia|Predacon insignias]] on his body changed to Decepticon insignias. Starscream either did not have, or did not seem to know that he had, this possession ability until he died during the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.

===Rampage/Protoform X===
The creation of Protoform X was an experiment conducted by the [[Maximal Elder|Maximal Elders]] to attempt to replicate Starscream's indestructible spark. Although they succeeded in creating such a spark, dubbed [[Rampage (BW)|Protoform X]] (and later taking on the name [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]), it was, unfortunately, psychotic.

Like Starscream's spark, Rampage's could not be extinguished through simple destruction of his body. In fact, Rampage's body—at least, the body he wore during the Beast Wars—had uncannily rapid self-repair functions. In one instance, Depth Charge pierced Rampage's body from front to back with a spear, and the damage disappeared in a matter of seconds once the spear was removed.

Megatron devised a way to split Rampage's spark by carving it with a blade of [[energon crystal]]. Amazingly, this did not destroy the spark, nor did it seem to weaken Rampage appreciably. Megatron kept part of the spark in a case lined with energon crystals. By squeezing the case, the crystals would pinch the spark fragment, and Megatron used this to torture Rampage into obedience.

Megatron later placed this piece of Rampage's spark inside his [[Transmetal|Transmetal II]] clone of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], who is usually referred to as [[Dinobot II]]. Dinobot II appeared to have a personality wholly independent of Rampage's, although he was similarly brutal. Dinobot II's personality, however, may have been imposed upon him through programming. Dinobot II could torture Rampage by compressing the spark fragment that he held, much as Megatron had previously done. This did not seem to affect Dinobot himself.

Rampage's spark turned out to not be completely indestructible. Seemingly as an extension of Megatron's splitting of the spark with an energon blade, Depth Charge eventually destroyed Rampage by piercing his spark with "pure" crystalline energon. Normally sparks "extinguish" somewhat peacefully, but when Rampage's was pierced, a powerful explosion destroyed the bodies of both Rampage and Depth Charge. It may be that Starscream's spark would be similarly vulnerable to being cut/destroyed by energon, but this is mere extrapolation.

When Rampage's spark was destroyed, the fragment within Dinobot II did not explode. It may have simply disappeared, or it may have remained there. However, through a process which is not clearly established, Dinobot II at that instant "reverted" to the personality of the original Dinobot, and even had a vision of Dinobot's last moments. It may be that this reversion was related to events scripted for an episode which was never produced, titled "[[Dark Glass]]".

Rampage's spark never displayed the ability to move under its own power.

===Megatron===
In season two of ''Beast Machines'', Megatron's spark does a number of unusual things.

As part of the battle between him and [[Optimus Primal]] at the end of season one, during which the [[Key to Vector Sigma]] and the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] were pitted against each other, Megatron somehow was able to "split" his Beast body into two separate bodies, one entirely robotic and the other entirely "biological". (Whether the Beast bodies of the ''Beast Wars'' characters had any true biological components or whether they were faux-flesh composed of nanites is not consistently established in either series.) Contrary to his intentions, Megatron's spark ended up trapped within the biological body, which came to be known as [[Noble|Noble/Savage]].

It is unclear how a biological body was able to sustain a Transformers' spark. Indeed, even the Maximals were surprised when they realized what had happened. It could be argued, based on statements made by [[Vector Sigma|the Oracle]] in the first episode ("[[The Reformatting]]") that all lifeforms in the universe have sparks, not just Transformers. However, this is never alluded to by any other canonical source, so most fans have seemingly dismissed it.

As shown in "[[Prometheus Unbound]]", using the biological Noble/Savage body, Megatron was unable to exercise mental control over devices in his citadel or interface with his [[control harness]]. Upon using a [[spark extractor]] on himself, however, his spark was freed and immediately flew to the harness, which it activated before "flowing" up to the ceiling through the harness's cables. His spark then took over the [[Grand Mal]], an enormous, floating replica of his own head, as its new body and stayed there for part of season two. The Noble/Savage body appeared to be dead, but recovered. After Megatron's spark had left it, it seemed to be a perfectly "normal" animal which had the ability to change between a wolf-like form and a dragon form, possessing little if any sentience.

As soon as his spark had been removed from Noble, it took on an unusual appearance, having turned entirely red or orange in color (perhaps a change similar to that of the reformatted Maximals). Megatron's disembodied spark also seemed to be able to speak even though it had no physical body. It may be that this speech was telepathic, but the spark itself pulsated in perfect rhythm with the words.

While inhabiting the Grand Mal, Megatron's spark was sometimes seen floating freely and under its own power through the construct's interior, particularly in a large space that appeared to serve as his control room. (It was here that he addressed his [[Vehicon general|Vehicon generals]], usually manifesting as a holographic projection of one kind or another.)

[[Image:Spark consumption.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Megatron's spark ensnares and consumes other sparks from his collection.]]
[[Image:Giant megatron spark.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Now enormous, Megatron's spark looms over Cybertron in the vicinity of his Big Floating Head.]]
Eventually, in the three-part "[[Sparkwar]]" story, Megatron's spark began consuming/fusing with the captured sparks of Cybertron's inhabitants. He claimed to have learned how to accomplish this after communicating with the Oracle.

To consume other sparks, Megatron's spark extended tendrils which ensnared victim sparks. These tendrils also had the ability extract sparks from occupied shells, much like a [[spark extractor]]. As each spark was absorbed, Megatron's spark grew larger in size.

Megatron was temporarily beaten when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] attacked him with a sonic scream. The scream, according to Primal, depolarized Megatron's spark. This caused him to lose control temporarily and allowed the Maximals to escape. In the following episode, "[[Spark of Darkness]]", Megatron's spark exhibited additional strange behaviors which may or may not have been dependent on its depolarized state:

*It travelled very quickly and with great agility.
*It was able to "crash" physically into things to push them around. In particular, it repeatedly knocked the Maximals out of its way.
*It seemed to be able to cause large explosions simply by flying through other objects.
*It could inhabit and leave any sparkless body at will. This ability evidently differs from Starscream's, in that Starscream never animated a vacant body, and Megatron never dominated an occupied one. These re-animated bodies were able to remain functional even after suffering extreme physical damage.
*His spark was not detectable by his Vehicon generals' sensors, and Primal was unable to "sense" his spark through the Oracle.
*The spark did not speak at all while depolarized, neither when in a body nor when floating freely.

Rattrap was able to capture Megatron using a hand-held [[spark extractor]], and using a control panel on the extractor, repolarized and thus stabilized his spark. Afterwards, Megatron's spark remained red and just as fast and agile as before, but became detectable by his generals' scanners again and became "trapped" in the next body it inhabited (that of a [[Diagnostic Drone]]). Upon entering this body, Megatron declared, "I live!" This was the first time he had spoken since being hit by the sonic scream. This implies that something about his prior "destabilized" state may have prevented him from fully utilizing the bodies he had visited. The only other clue we have is that when Optimus tried to contact Megatron's spark inside the Grand Mal, he discovered that it "was not a sentient mind." Whether this is a result of trying to find a spark that was not in the expected location or because of its depolarized state is ambiguous.

===Embers===
One particular [[Shattered Glass|alternate universe]] seems to be much more of a departure from the "regular" realities in the [[multiverse]]. In it, the semi-mystical ball of energy that gives the resident Transformers their lifeforce is an electron-charged "Ember". Aside from the polarity, there's no other difference noted from the [[positron]]-charged Spark that [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] brings into that universe.

==Trivia==
*It is possible there is some quantitative difference between the sparks of Generation 1 Transformers and [[Protoform]] ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks. G1 Transformers' sparks are generally glossed as small fragments of [[Primus]]'s lifeforce. ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks are generally considered to be the same, but writer [[Larry DiTillio]] has stated that he envisioned ''Beast Wars'' Transformers' sparks as small fragments split from the [[Vok Nebula]]. When a spark is split from Vok Nebula, a "good" one travels to the [[Matrix (facility)|Matrix]] and an "evil" one to the [[Pit]].<ref>[[Beast Wars Universe]]</ref>

==See also==
*[[Allspark]]
*[[Laser core]]
*[[Personality component]]
*[[Shell program]]
*[[Spark of Combination]]
*[[Mitotic spark]]
*[[Binary spark]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Machines]]
[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]
[[Category:Religion]]
[[Category:Primus]]

Spark

2009-08-06T22:24:40Z

Fleb: /* Absence of spark */ that logic would apply to all of them, not just Afterburn

{{disambig3|Spark}}
{{featured}}

[[Image:Sparks.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Botanica is a Bellarian.]]
A '''spark''' is the lifeforce, or soul, of a [[Transformer]]. Each spark is part of the essence of [[Primus]] himself.

The spark is a physical entity which is safeguarded inside a Transformer body. If something harms the spark beyond repair, it is "extinguished" and returns to the [[Allspark]] (or sometimes the [[Well of All Sparks]]). The Transformer is then considered dead. A Transformer is able to survive an enormous amount of physical damage. As long as the spark is intact, it is possible to repair or rebuild the body and restore the spark to it.

{{quote|When a Spark goes online, there is great joy. When one is extinguished, the universe weeps.|[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] being all mystical|"[[The Spark]]"}}

==Establishment in fiction==
[[Image:Spark.gif|left|180px|thumb|Animation of a typical spark. Shiny!]]
The concept of the spark as currently understood was introduced to the Transformers mythos in the ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' episode "[[The Spark]]". In this episode, little is explained except that each spark is unique and that every "Cybertron" (here meaning, essentially, "Cybertronian") has one.

The later episode "[[Possession]]" dealt with the idea of sparks, but the spark in question—that of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]—is established as being aberrant, and thus the properties it displays are not necessarily characteristic of sparks in general. However, "Possession" was the first time it was claimed that characters from the Generation 1 series also had sparks, rather than sparks existing in ''Beast Wars'' only. Sparks remained prominent throughout ''Beast Wars'', and events in seasons two and three further established the [[retcon]] that Generation 1 Transformers all possessed sparks.

In ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', sparks became central to the story, as [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had abducted the sparks from every Transformer on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Megatron's own spark displayed unusual behaviors in this series, and again, it is probable these behaviors do not apply to all sparks. Still, ''Beast Machines'' contributed more information about sparks to the [[canon]] than any other series.

The [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]] occasionally referenced a device called a [[laser core]], which seemingly has a similar function to a spark. The tech spec bio for the [[Beast Rider]] [[Mechatron]] says that he is "outfitted with an upgraded spark-capture claw that can tear out the entire laser core of any Transformer defender." This implies, as some fans had speculated prior to Mechatron's release, that the laser core may be some sort of housing for the spark.

Since the introduction of the spark concept in ''Beast Wars'', sparks have become an integral part of many Transformers fictions. They have been featured in new [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]-based series and in later, entirely new [[continuity family|continuity families]] such as the [[Unicron Trilogy]] and [[Transformers Animated]].

Although the word "spark" does appear offhandedly in some [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''Generation 1'' comic]] stories (a "spark of life", a "life spark", and the phrases [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|"Let no spark remain flickering in a single Autobot microchip!"]] and [[Pretender to the Throne!|"For as long as a spark exists within a single Mechabot..."]]), these were clearly simply metaphorical statements. They may be retroactively seen as referring to the contemporary concept of a Transformer's spark, but did not establish anything of the sort on their own.

==Properties of sparks==
[[Image:Spark colors.jpg|right|180px|thumb|The sparks of the reformatted Maximals took on unusual colors. Before their final battle with Megatron, the sparks became visible within their bodies. They also lift and separate.]]
As seen in the image at the top of this article, sparks normally appear as semitransparent blue balls of energy with a pulsating center composed of smaller, blue spheres. The center spheres are engulfed in a reddish glow. An ever-changing pattern of "electricity"-like lines travels around the surface and through the interior. However, in ''Beast Machines'', the sparks of the Maximal heroes who had been [[Reformatting|reformatted]] took on different colors (for example, [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]]'s was green). This was first visible in "[[Revelations Part I: Discovery]]". At the end of that series, after being infused with extra power from the Matrix (cf. [[Allspark]]), their sparks became visible, as if parts of their torsos were translucent.

[[Beast Era]] Transformers seem to have permanent "spark chambers" within their chassis where the spark can be seen simply by opening the chamber. Older Transformers within the same G1/Beast [[continuity family]], such as those who lived before the [[Great Upgrade]], do not seem to have this feature in most continuities. The G1 ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' guidebook from [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] specifically states that a spark is normally "suffused" throughout a Transformer's body rather than residing in any particular place. It may be that this is also true after the Great Upgrade, and that the spark chamber is merely a protected location for the spark to coalesce when needed. Meanwhile, making things more confusing, the cutaway diagrams of G1 Optimus Prime and Megatron in ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' include spark chambers.

In the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon, there were two cases of Beast-era Transformers temporarily housing the sparks of G1-era Transformers in their own bodies while still housing their own sparks. In both cases, this resulted in the Beastie undergoing a mutation of sorts into a more powerful body: [[Optimus Primal]], upon taking the spark of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], grew into his Optimal Optimus body; and Megatron, upon taking the spark of the [[Megatron (G1)|original Megatron]] obtained his dragon form. However, based on the information from the series, there is no basis for determining whether this phenomenon is a result of a single body housing two sparks, a Beast-era body housing a G1-era spark, a body being implanted with an especially "powerful" spark (like those of Optimus Prime and Megatron could conceivably be), or some combination of these. When the disembodied spark of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] had earlier possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], the only physical change was the body's allegiance emblems shifting from Predacon to Decepticon. (The later ''Beast Wars'' comic miniseries ''[[The Gathering]]'' implies that G1 sparks may be intrinsically more powerful than Beast-era sparks.)

Although Transformer memories and personalities are generally treated as if they are stored within the Transformers' computer brains, repeated canonical instances have established that a spark will (or can) hold all of an individual's memories, along with their "essence" or personality. Further, there is some evidence that sparks may even retain records of the Transformer's previous bodies (such as when Optimal Optimus, whose body originated with a [[blank]] [[protoform]], regressed into a copy of the gorilla body Primal wore at the beginning of the Beast Wars). A Transformer's behavior can be modified through programming of their mechanical body (referred to as a [[shell program]]), but this is always a struggle between the programming and the "true" nature of the spark within. It may be that over long periods of time, a spark may begin to internalize some aspects of a programmed personality.

Many Transformers, such as [[Sky Lynx (G1)|G1 Sky Lynx]], [[Omega Supreme (G1)|G1 Omega Supreme]] and the [[Duocon|Duocons]], simultaneously inhabit multiple mechanical bodies or components. The character bio for [[Magmatron]] mentions this ability of his, and categorizes his spark as a "mitotic spark" which is able of splitting and sharing itself between his three beast modes. It is unknown whether other multiple-bodied Transformers also possess mitotic sparks or if they are examples of something more mundane such as simple remote control.

Some Transformers are able to sense and communicate with the sparks of other Transformers through a process that appears analogous to telepathy. According to dialog from "[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse]]", this ability is related to the sparks' mutual connection to the Allspark. Disembodied sparks are sometimes able to communicate through this same method. (See [[#Disembodied_sparks|below]].)

The radiation emitted by [[Energon (fuel)|energon]] crystals is harmful to sparks, even when protected within a Transformer's body. Certain body types are better able to shield the spark from energon radiation. For example, the flesh-like beast modes adopted by the crews of the [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] and ''[[Darksyde]]'' provided essentially 100% protection, allowing activity in environments that were practically forests of energon crystal, so long as those involved remained in beast mode. Direct contact between crystalline energon and a spark is highly dangerous.

In the ''Beast Machines'' episode "[[Spark of Darkness]]", [[Rattrap]] describes Megatron's disembodied spark as a ball of [[Electron|electrons]]. He goes on to say that normal sparks contain a large number of [[Positron|positrons]]. Based on his dialogue, it is possible, but not certain, that sparks are composed ''entirely'' of positrons. Rattrap also indicates, in "Revelations Part I", that when a spark is extinguished, carbon scoring is typically left on or within the Transformer's chassis.

[[Image:Revelations3 Nightscream spark.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Nightscream's hands don't seem to touch the spark itself while pushing on it. Mind you, wouldn't you recoil from the guy too?]]
Regardless of their composition, sparks are not insubstantial energy, but have some sort of physical aspect. This is clearly demonstrated in, again, "Revelations Part III", when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is seen attempting to push Blackarachnia's spark back into her body. His hands press against some sort of surface (or perhaps merely a force field, in which case the spark could be entirely energy) which is above the visible surface of her spark. Later in the series, in "Spark of Darkness", Megatron's spark is also shown to have physicality. Further back, in ''Beast Wars'', the spark of Rampage/Protoform X would respond to being "crushed" by Megatron by flattening slightly inside its energon-lined carrying case. And even the spark of G1 Megatron was "grabbed" physically by a tentacle-like appendage of BW Megatron's. While some of these examples may be special cases, as they deal with sparks that have unusual properties, those properties are unique to each spark. The weight of evidence, then, is in favor of sparks being at least partially substantial.

In the [[Energon (cartoon)|''Energon'' cartoon]], sparks were shown to have the ability to be somehow augmented by Primus to become a [[Combination Spark]]. This allowed two Autobots to [[powerlinx]] together into a new form, allowing one Autobot to take command of the fused body while the "pants" remained dormant. Without the Combination Spark, a powerlinx between two normal Transformers could not be completed. It is not stated whether the combiner teams [[Constructicon Maximus]] and [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] also possessed Combination Sparks or if their ability to combine has some other origin.

==Disembodied sparks==
Sparks are able to exist outside of a Transformer body, but the parameters of this phenomenon are largely unclear. In is unknown for how long a spark can survive under such conditions, although they are vulnerable to damage in this state. It is also unknown whether a disembodied spark is "conscious" and aware of its surroundings, or whether it is capable of moving under its own power. (There are unusual cases, as described under [[#Aberrant_sparks|Aberrant sparks]].)

It is hard to imagine how a spark could be aware of its surroundings when stripped of all sensory mechanisms. Indeed, in "Revelations Part III: Apocalypse", while Blackarachnia's spark was outside of her body, her consciousness did not remain in the "real world". Instead, she experienced a conversation with [[Optimus Primal]]—not a hallucination—which took place on an abstract "higher plane of existence," perhaps within the Allspark itself.

Most of the disembodied sparks in ''Beast Machines'' drift slowly and largely directionlessly. In many other cases, sparks seem to move with some sort of intent. However, aside from attempts of sparks to re-enter their "home" bodies, these are conceivably all "special cases" and may not be generalizable. In one example, the sparks of [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] are seen following [[Tigerhawk]] to Earth in "[[Other Victories]]". While their sparks appear normal when this occurs, they later merge into a single white spark and then inhabit the (then-empty) Tigerhawk body. This is not normal spark behavior and may be related to the time they spent seemingly in stasis with the [[Vok]]. Also, in "Revalations Part III", when Blackarachnia becomes panicked during her telepathic conversation with Primal, her spark begins moving erratically and has to be chased down by Nightscream. However, it is unclear whether the spark was moving ''with intent''—especially since Blackarachnia's consciousness was portrayed as still being on a higher plane—or simply zigzagging randomly. And, again, a reformatted spark may be different from a normal spark anyway.

==IDW's sparks==
[[Image:KupsSpark.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Save the Spark. Save the World.]]
In [[Spotlight: Kup]], [[Kup (G1)|Kup]]'s sparkhousing is unstable due to age and radiation poisoning. He finally experiences sparkcore stabilizer failure, which threatens to blow him up. [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] saves him by extending a forcefield around the crashing spark. Later, Kup is shown in a C/R chamber, fitted with a placeholder powercore to maintain his spark.

Later, [[Spotlight: Arcee]] would explain that the Autobots kept Decepticon prisoners in spark stasis, which apparently entails actually removing the sparks from their casings, separating the spark from the body.

[[Image:SpotlightArcee Garrus-9 inmates.jpg|left|400px|thumb|Reminds me of the reptile cages at the zoo...except less stinky .]]
Not all prisoners underwent this process. For Monstructor, it was noted that the Autobots couldn't break through the destructive programming far enough to rehabilitate/reform the sparks (as per Optimus Prime's orders), and as such, haven't pulled the sparks from the frames.

Arcee found this limbo peaceful, but was later reunited with her body. To control her behavior, a "g-force crush" device was installed on or in her spark casing and could be operated via remote control.

==Absence of spark==

Strangely, it is possible for both Transformers and related mechanical entities to remain online and sentient despite the ''lack'' of a spark.

The first example would be the original [[Diagnostic Drone]] in ''Beast Machines''. While simply being a robotic aid and having no spark, it showed a full range of emotions, the ability to reason, and could be consulted by Megatron. In ''Animated'', first [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] and later [[Starscream clone|his clones]] each substituted a natural spark with an [[AllSpark fragment]]. They didn't, however, seem that bothered that they were suicide bombers. Titan's tie-in comics, meanwhile, would reveal that comic-original character [[Afterburn]] was really a sparkless drone, despite having shown emotion, initiative and thought beforehand.

These instances raise questions about how necessary a spark ''really'' is, and what properties it bestows that are genuinely unique.

It should also be noted that when Afterburn was revealed to have had no spark, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] ''immediately'' wrote him off as not having been a "real" bot and viewed it as pointless to mark Afterburn's death. Similarly, nobody seemed bothered by the Starscream clones dying or found it notable that Starscream had created beings whose sole purpose was to be suicide bombers. Cybertronian orthodoxy, it would seem, views the presence of a spark as the true indicator of life, with emotion and sentience being seen as irrelevant.

{{-}}

==Aberrant sparks==
Some sparks have exhibited properties or behaviors that do not seem to be generalizable to other sparks.

===Starscream===
As established in the ''Beast Wars'' episodes "[[Possession]]" and "[[Bad Spark]]", Starscream possesses a "mutant" immortal spark. Even when his body is destroyed, his spark is not extinguished. This explanation retcons the appearance of Starscream's ghost in some season three episodes from the G1 cartoon; the "ghost" was in fact Starscream's disembodied spark.

Starscream's spark was able to move under its own power and seemingly travelled not just across space from Cybertron to [[Earth]], but backwards through time from 2006 to human prehistory. It may be that the time travel was accomplished by "falling" through the [[transwarp]] hole left by the ''Axalon'' and ''Darksyde'' when they arrived on prehistoric Earth—[[Depth Charge]]'s ship arrived there by that method later in the series—but this is uncertain.

Additionally, Starscream's spark was able to take possession of other Transformers simply by entering their bodies. While in another body, Starscream's will completely dominates that of his host. When Starscream possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], Waspinator's voice even changed to sound like Starscream's, and the [[Insignia|Predacon insignias]] on his body changed to Decepticon insignias. Starscream either did not have, or did not seem to know that he had, this possession ability until he died during the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.

===Rampage/Protoform X===
The creation of Protoform X was an experiment conducted by the [[Maximal Elder|Maximal Elders]] to attempt to replicate Starscream's indestructible spark. Although they succeeded in creating such a spark, dubbed [[Rampage (BW)|Protoform X]] (and later taking on the name [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]), it was, unfortunately, psychotic.

Like Starscream's spark, Rampage's could not be extinguished through simple destruction of his body. In fact, Rampage's body—at least, the body he wore during the Beast Wars—had uncannily rapid self-repair functions. In one instance, Depth Charge pierced Rampage's body from front to back with a spear, and the damage disappeared in a matter of seconds once the spear was removed.

Megatron devised a way to split Rampage's spark by carving it with a blade of [[energon crystal]]. Amazingly, this did not destroy the spark, nor did it seem to weaken Rampage appreciably. Megatron kept part of the spark in a case lined with energon crystals. By squeezing the case, the crystals would pinch the spark fragment, and Megatron used this to torture Rampage into obedience.

Megatron later placed this piece of Rampage's spark inside his [[Transmetal|Transmetal II]] clone of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], who is usually referred to as [[Dinobot II]]. Dinobot II appeared to have a personality wholly independent of Rampage's, although he was similarly brutal. Dinobot II's personality, however, may have been imposed upon him through programming. Dinobot II could torture Rampage by compressing the spark fragment that he held, much as Megatron had previously done. This did not seem to affect Dinobot himself.

Rampage's spark turned out to not be completely indestructible. Seemingly as an extension of Megatron's splitting of the spark with an energon blade, Depth Charge eventually destroyed Rampage by piercing his spark with "pure" crystalline energon. Normally sparks "extinguish" somewhat peacefully, but when Rampage's was pierced, a powerful explosion destroyed the bodies of both Rampage and Depth Charge. It may be that Starscream's spark would be similarly vulnerable to being cut/destroyed by energon, but this is mere extrapolation.

When Rampage's spark was destroyed, the fragment within Dinobot II did not explode. It may have simply disappeared, or it may have remained there. However, through a process which is not clearly established, Dinobot II at that instant "reverted" to the personality of the original Dinobot, and even had a vision of Dinobot's last moments. It may be that this reversion was related to events scripted for an episode which was never produced, titled "[[Dark Glass]]".

Rampage's spark never displayed the ability to move under its own power.

===Megatron===
In season two of ''Beast Machines'', Megatron's spark does a number of unusual things.

As part of the battle between him and [[Optimus Primal]] at the end of season one, during which the [[Key to Vector Sigma]] and the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] were pitted against each other, Megatron somehow was able to "split" his Beast body into two separate bodies, one entirely robotic and the other entirely "biological". (Whether the Beast bodies of the ''Beast Wars'' characters had any true biological components or whether they were faux-flesh composed of nanites is not consistently established in either series.) Contrary to his intentions, Megatron's spark ended up trapped within the biological body, which came to be known as [[Noble|Noble/Savage]].

It is unclear how a biological body was able to sustain a Transformers' spark. Indeed, even the Maximals were surprised when they realized what had happened. It could be argued, based on statements made by [[Vector Sigma|the Oracle]] in the first episode ("[[The Reformatting]]") that all lifeforms in the universe have sparks, not just Transformers. However, this is never alluded to by any other canonical source, so most fans have seemingly dismissed it.

As shown in "[[Prometheus Unbound]]", using the biological Noble/Savage body, Megatron was unable to exercise mental control over devices in his citadel or interface with his [[control harness]]. Upon using a [[spark extractor]] on himself, however, his spark was freed and immediately flew to the harness, which it activated before "flowing" up to the ceiling through the harness's cables. His spark then took over the [[Grand Mal]], an enormous, floating replica of his own head, as its new body and stayed there for part of season two. The Noble/Savage body appeared to be dead, but recovered. After Megatron's spark had left it, it seemed to be a perfectly "normal" animal which had the ability to change between a wolf-like form and a dragon form, possessing little if any sentience.

As soon as his spark had been removed from Noble, it took on an unusual appearance, having turned entirely red or orange in color (perhaps a change similar to that of the reformatted Maximals). Megatron's disembodied spark also seemed to be able to speak even though it had no physical body. It may be that this speech was telepathic, but the spark itself pulsated in perfect rhythm with the words.

While inhabiting the Grand Mal, Megatron's spark was sometimes seen floating freely and under its own power through the construct's interior, particularly in a large space that appeared to serve as his control room. (It was here that he addressed his [[Vehicon general|Vehicon generals]], usually manifesting as a holographic projection of one kind or another.)

[[Image:Spark consumption.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Megatron's spark ensnares and consumes other sparks from his collection.]]
[[Image:Giant megatron spark.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Now enormous, Megatron's spark looms over Cybertron in the vicinity of his Big Floating Head.]]
Eventually, in the three-part "[[Sparkwar]]" story, Megatron's spark began consuming/fusing with the captured sparks of Cybertron's inhabitants. He claimed to have learned how to accomplish this after communicating with the Oracle.

To consume other sparks, Megatron's spark extended tendrils which ensnared victim sparks. These tendrils also had the ability extract sparks from occupied shells, much like a [[spark extractor]]. As each spark was absorbed, Megatron's spark grew larger in size.

Megatron was temporarily beaten when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] attacked him with a sonic scream. The scream, according to Primal, depolarized Megatron's spark. This caused him to lose control temporarily and allowed the Maximals to escape. In the following episode, "[[Spark of Darkness]]", Megatron's spark exhibited additional strange behaviors which may or may not have been dependent on its depolarized state:

*It travelled very quickly and with great agility.
*It was able to "crash" physically into things to push them around. In particular, it repeatedly knocked the Maximals out of its way.
*It seemed to be able to cause large explosions simply by flying through other objects.
*It could inhabit and leave any sparkless body at will. This ability evidently differs from Starscream's, in that Starscream never animated a vacant body, and Megatron never dominated an occupied one. These re-animated bodies were able to remain functional even after suffering extreme physical damage.
*His spark was not detectable by his Vehicon generals' sensors, and Primal was unable to "sense" his spark through the Oracle.
*The spark did not speak at all while depolarized, neither when in a body nor when floating freely.

Rattrap was able to capture Megatron using a hand-held [[spark extractor]], and using a control panel on the extractor, repolarized and thus stabilized his spark. Afterwards, Megatron's spark remained red and just as fast and agile as before, but became detectable by his generals' scanners again and became "trapped" in the next body it inhabited (that of a [[Diagnostic Drone]]). Upon entering this body, Megatron declared, "I live!" This was the first time he had spoken since being hit by the sonic scream. This implies that something about his prior "destabilized" state may have prevented him from fully utilizing the bodies he had visited. The only other clue we have is that when Optimus tried to contact Megatron's spark inside the Grand Mal, he discovered that it "was not a sentient mind." Whether this is a result of trying to find a spark that was not in the expected location or because of its depolarized state is ambiguous.

===Embers===
One particular [[Shattered Glass|alternate universe]] seems to be much more of a departure from the "regular" realities in the [[multiverse]]. In it, the semi-mystical ball of energy that gives the resident Transformers their lifeforce is an electron-charged "Ember". Aside from the polarity, there's no other difference noted from the [[positron]]-charged Spark that [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] brings into that universe.

==Trivia==
*It is possible there is some quantitative difference between the sparks of Generation 1 Transformers and [[Protoform]] ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks. G1 Transformers' sparks are generally glossed as small fragments of [[Primus]]'s lifeforce. ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks are generally considered to be the same, but writer [[Larry DiTillio]] has stated that he envisioned ''Beast Wars'' Transformers' sparks as small fragments split from the [[Vok Nebula]]. When a spark is split from Vok Nebula, a "good" one travels to the [[Matrix (facility)|Matrix]] and an "evil" one to the [[Pit]].<ref>[[Beast Wars Universe]]</ref>

==See also==
*[[Allspark]]
*[[Laser core]]
*[[Personality component]]
*[[Shell program]]
*[[Spark of Combination]]
*[[Mitotic spark]]
*[[Binary spark]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Machines]]
[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]
[[Category:Religion]]
[[Category:Primus]]

Spark

2009-08-06T22:18:00Z

Fleb: /* Establishment in fiction */

{{disambig3|Spark}}
{{featured}}

[[Image:Sparks.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Botanica is a Bellarian.]]
A '''spark''' is the lifeforce, or soul, of a [[Transformer]]. Each spark is part of the essence of [[Primus]] himself.

The spark is a physical entity which is safeguarded inside a Transformer body. If something harms the spark beyond repair, it is "extinguished" and returns to the [[Allspark]] (or sometimes the [[Well of All Sparks]]). The Transformer is then considered dead. A Transformer is able to survive an enormous amount of physical damage. As long as the spark is intact, it is possible to repair or rebuild the body and restore the spark to it.

{{quote|When a Spark goes online, there is great joy. When one is extinguished, the universe weeps.|[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] being all mystical|"[[The Spark]]"}}

==Establishment in fiction==
[[Image:Spark.gif|left|180px|thumb|Animation of a typical spark. Shiny!]]
The concept of the spark as currently understood was introduced to the Transformers mythos in the ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' episode "[[The Spark]]". In this episode, little is explained except that each spark is unique and that every "Cybertron" (here meaning, essentially, "Cybertronian") has one.

The later episode "[[Possession]]" dealt with the idea of sparks, but the spark in question—that of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]—is established as being aberrant, and thus the properties it displays are not necessarily characteristic of sparks in general. However, "Possession" was the first time it was claimed that characters from the Generation 1 series also had sparks, rather than sparks existing in ''Beast Wars'' only. Sparks remained prominent throughout ''Beast Wars'', and events in seasons two and three further established the [[retcon]] that Generation 1 Transformers all possessed sparks.

In ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'', sparks became central to the story, as [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had abducted the sparks from every Transformer on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Megatron's own spark displayed unusual behaviors in this series, and again, it is probable these behaviors do not apply to all sparks. Still, ''Beast Machines'' contributed more information about sparks to the [[canon]] than any other series.

The [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]] occasionally referenced a device called a [[laser core]], which seemingly has a similar function to a spark. The tech spec bio for the [[Beast Rider]] [[Mechatron]] says that he is "outfitted with an upgraded spark-capture claw that can tear out the entire laser core of any Transformer defender." This implies, as some fans had speculated prior to Mechatron's release, that the laser core may be some sort of housing for the spark.

Since the introduction of the spark concept in ''Beast Wars'', sparks have become an integral part of many Transformers fictions. They have been featured in new [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]-based series and in later, entirely new [[continuity family|continuity families]] such as the [[Unicron Trilogy]] and [[Transformers Animated]].

Although the word "spark" does appear offhandedly in some [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''Generation 1'' comic]] stories (a "spark of life", a "life spark", and the phrases [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|"Let no spark remain flickering in a single Autobot microchip!"]] and [[Pretender to the Throne!|"For as long as a spark exists within a single Mechabot..."]]), these were clearly simply metaphorical statements. They may be retroactively seen as referring to the contemporary concept of a Transformer's spark, but did not establish anything of the sort on their own.

==Properties of sparks==
[[Image:Spark colors.jpg|right|180px|thumb|The sparks of the reformatted Maximals took on unusual colors. Before their final battle with Megatron, the sparks became visible within their bodies. They also lift and separate.]]
As seen in the image at the top of this article, sparks normally appear as semitransparent blue balls of energy with a pulsating center composed of smaller, blue spheres. The center spheres are engulfed in a reddish glow. An ever-changing pattern of "electricity"-like lines travels around the surface and through the interior. However, in ''Beast Machines'', the sparks of the Maximal heroes who had been [[Reformatting|reformatted]] took on different colors (for example, [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]]'s was green). This was first visible in "[[Revelations Part I: Discovery]]". At the end of that series, after being infused with extra power from the Matrix (cf. [[Allspark]]), their sparks became visible, as if parts of their torsos were translucent.

[[Beast Era]] Transformers seem to have permanent "spark chambers" within their chassis where the spark can be seen simply by opening the chamber. Older Transformers within the same G1/Beast [[continuity family]], such as those who lived before the [[Great Upgrade]], do not seem to have this feature in most continuities. The G1 ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' guidebook from [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] specifically states that a spark is normally "suffused" throughout a Transformer's body rather than residing in any particular place. It may be that this is also true after the Great Upgrade, and that the spark chamber is merely a protected location for the spark to coalesce when needed. Meanwhile, making things more confusing, the cutaway diagrams of G1 Optimus Prime and Megatron in ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]'' include spark chambers.

In the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon, there were two cases of Beast-era Transformers temporarily housing the sparks of G1-era Transformers in their own bodies while still housing their own sparks. In both cases, this resulted in the Beastie undergoing a mutation of sorts into a more powerful body: [[Optimus Primal]], upon taking the spark of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], grew into his Optimal Optimus body; and Megatron, upon taking the spark of the [[Megatron (G1)|original Megatron]] obtained his dragon form. However, based on the information from the series, there is no basis for determining whether this phenomenon is a result of a single body housing two sparks, a Beast-era body housing a G1-era spark, a body being implanted with an especially "powerful" spark (like those of Optimus Prime and Megatron could conceivably be), or some combination of these. When the disembodied spark of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] had earlier possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], the only physical change was the body's allegiance emblems shifting from Predacon to Decepticon. (The later ''Beast Wars'' comic miniseries ''[[The Gathering]]'' implies that G1 sparks may be intrinsically more powerful than Beast-era sparks.)

Although Transformer memories and personalities are generally treated as if they are stored within the Transformers' computer brains, repeated canonical instances have established that a spark will (or can) hold all of an individual's memories, along with their "essence" or personality. Further, there is some evidence that sparks may even retain records of the Transformer's previous bodies (such as when Optimal Optimus, whose body originated with a [[blank]] [[protoform]], regressed into a copy of the gorilla body Primal wore at the beginning of the Beast Wars). A Transformer's behavior can be modified through programming of their mechanical body (referred to as a [[shell program]]), but this is always a struggle between the programming and the "true" nature of the spark within. It may be that over long periods of time, a spark may begin to internalize some aspects of a programmed personality.

Many Transformers, such as [[Sky Lynx (G1)|G1 Sky Lynx]], [[Omega Supreme (G1)|G1 Omega Supreme]] and the [[Duocon|Duocons]], simultaneously inhabit multiple mechanical bodies or components. The character bio for [[Magmatron]] mentions this ability of his, and categorizes his spark as a "mitotic spark" which is able of splitting and sharing itself between his three beast modes. It is unknown whether other multiple-bodied Transformers also possess mitotic sparks or if they are examples of something more mundane such as simple remote control.

Some Transformers are able to sense and communicate with the sparks of other Transformers through a process that appears analogous to telepathy. According to dialog from "[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse]]", this ability is related to the sparks' mutual connection to the Allspark. Disembodied sparks are sometimes able to communicate through this same method. (See [[#Disembodied_sparks|below]].)

The radiation emitted by [[Energon (fuel)|energon]] crystals is harmful to sparks, even when protected within a Transformer's body. Certain body types are better able to shield the spark from energon radiation. For example, the flesh-like beast modes adopted by the crews of the [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] and ''[[Darksyde]]'' provided essentially 100% protection, allowing activity in environments that were practically forests of energon crystal, so long as those involved remained in beast mode. Direct contact between crystalline energon and a spark is highly dangerous.

In the ''Beast Machines'' episode "[[Spark of Darkness]]", [[Rattrap]] describes Megatron's disembodied spark as a ball of [[Electron|electrons]]. He goes on to say that normal sparks contain a large number of [[Positron|positrons]]. Based on his dialogue, it is possible, but not certain, that sparks are composed ''entirely'' of positrons. Rattrap also indicates, in "Revelations Part I", that when a spark is extinguished, carbon scoring is typically left on or within the Transformer's chassis.

[[Image:Revelations3 Nightscream spark.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Nightscream's hands don't seem to touch the spark itself while pushing on it. Mind you, wouldn't you recoil from the guy too?]]
Regardless of their composition, sparks are not insubstantial energy, but have some sort of physical aspect. This is clearly demonstrated in, again, "Revelations Part III", when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is seen attempting to push Blackarachnia's spark back into her body. His hands press against some sort of surface (or perhaps merely a force field, in which case the spark could be entirely energy) which is above the visible surface of her spark. Later in the series, in "Spark of Darkness", Megatron's spark is also shown to have physicality. Further back, in ''Beast Wars'', the spark of Rampage/Protoform X would respond to being "crushed" by Megatron by flattening slightly inside its energon-lined carrying case. And even the spark of G1 Megatron was "grabbed" physically by a tentacle-like appendage of BW Megatron's. While some of these examples may be special cases, as they deal with sparks that have unusual properties, those properties are unique to each spark. The weight of evidence, then, is in favor of sparks being at least partially substantial.

In the [[Energon (cartoon)|''Energon'' cartoon]], sparks were shown to have the ability to be somehow augmented by Primus to become a [[Combination Spark]]. This allowed two Autobots to [[powerlinx]] together into a new form, allowing one Autobot to take command of the fused body while the "pants" remained dormant. Without the Combination Spark, a powerlinx between two normal Transformers could not be completed. It is not stated whether the combiner teams [[Constructicon Maximus]] and [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] also possessed Combination Sparks or if their ability to combine has some other origin.

==Disembodied sparks==
Sparks are able to exist outside of a Transformer body, but the parameters of this phenomenon are largely unclear. In is unknown for how long a spark can survive under such conditions, although they are vulnerable to damage in this state. It is also unknown whether a disembodied spark is "conscious" and aware of its surroundings, or whether it is capable of moving under its own power. (There are unusual cases, as described under [[#Aberrant_sparks|Aberrant sparks]].)

It is hard to imagine how a spark could be aware of its surroundings when stripped of all sensory mechanisms. Indeed, in "Revelations Part III: Apocalypse", while Blackarachnia's spark was outside of her body, her consciousness did not remain in the "real world". Instead, she experienced a conversation with [[Optimus Primal]]—not a hallucination—which took place on an abstract "higher plane of existence," perhaps within the Allspark itself.

Most of the disembodied sparks in ''Beast Machines'' drift slowly and largely directionlessly. In many other cases, sparks seem to move with some sort of intent. However, aside from attempts of sparks to re-enter their "home" bodies, these are conceivably all "special cases" and may not be generalizable. In one example, the sparks of [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] are seen following [[Tigerhawk]] to Earth in "[[Other Victories]]". While their sparks appear normal when this occurs, they later merge into a single white spark and then inhabit the (then-empty) Tigerhawk body. This is not normal spark behavior and may be related to the time they spent seemingly in stasis with the [[Vok]]. Also, in "Revalations Part III", when Blackarachnia becomes panicked during her telepathic conversation with Primal, her spark begins moving erratically and has to be chased down by Nightscream. However, it is unclear whether the spark was moving ''with intent''—especially since Blackarachnia's consciousness was portrayed as still being on a higher plane—or simply zigzagging randomly. And, again, a reformatted spark may be different from a normal spark anyway.

==IDW's sparks==
[[Image:KupsSpark.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Save the Spark. Save the World.]]
In [[Spotlight: Kup]], [[Kup (G1)|Kup]]'s sparkhousing is unstable due to age and radiation poisoning. He finally experiences sparkcore stabilizer failure, which threatens to blow him up. [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] saves him by extending a forcefield around the crashing spark. Later, Kup is shown in a C/R chamber, fitted with a placeholder powercore to maintain his spark.

Later, [[Spotlight: Arcee]] would explain that the Autobots kept Decepticon prisoners in spark stasis, which apparently entails actually removing the sparks from their casings, separating the spark from the body.

[[Image:SpotlightArcee Garrus-9 inmates.jpg|left|400px|thumb|Reminds me of the reptile cages at the zoo...except less stinky .]]
Not all prisoners underwent this process. For Monstructor, it was noted that the Autobots couldn't break through the destructive programming far enough to rehabilitate/reform the sparks (as per Optimus Prime's orders), and as such, haven't pulled the sparks from the frames.

Arcee found this limbo peaceful, but was later reunited with her body. To control her behavior, a "g-force crush" device was installed on or in her spark casing and could be operated via remote control.

==Absence of spark==

Strangely, it is possible for both Transformers and related mechanical entities to remain online and sentient despite the ''lack'' of a spark.

The first example would be the original [[Diagnostic Drone]] in ''Beast Machines''. While simply being a robotic aid and having no spark, it showed a full range of emotions, the ability to reason, and could be consulted by Megatron. In ''Animated'', the first two [[Starscream clone|Starscream clones]] lacked sparks, while still showing thought and emotions. They didn't, however, seem that bothered that they were suicide bombers. Titan's tie-in comics, meanwhile, would reveal that comic-original character [[Afterburn]] was really a sparkless drone, even though he'd shown emotion, initiative and thought beforehand (however, he could have just been programmed to IMITATE such traits).

These instances raise questions about how needed a spark ''really'' is, and what properties it bestows that are genuinely unique.

It should also be noted that when Afterburn was revealed to have had no spark, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] ''immediately'' wrote him off as not having been a "real" bot and viewed it as pointless to mark Afterburn's death. Similarly, nobody seemed bothered by the Starscream clones dying or found it notable that Starscream had created beings whose sole purpose was to die. Cybertronian orthodoxy, it would seem, views the presence of a spark as the true indicator of life, with emotion and sentience being seen as irrelevant.

{{-}}

==Aberrant sparks==
Some sparks have exhibited properties or behaviors that do not seem to be generalizable to other sparks.

===Starscream===
As established in the ''Beast Wars'' episodes "[[Possession]]" and "[[Bad Spark]]", Starscream possesses a "mutant" immortal spark. Even when his body is destroyed, his spark is not extinguished. This explanation retcons the appearance of Starscream's ghost in some season three episodes from the G1 cartoon; the "ghost" was in fact Starscream's disembodied spark.

Starscream's spark was able to move under its own power and seemingly travelled not just across space from Cybertron to [[Earth]], but backwards through time from 2006 to human prehistory. It may be that the time travel was accomplished by "falling" through the [[transwarp]] hole left by the ''Axalon'' and ''Darksyde'' when they arrived on prehistoric Earth—[[Depth Charge]]'s ship arrived there by that method later in the series—but this is uncertain.

Additionally, Starscream's spark was able to take possession of other Transformers simply by entering their bodies. While in another body, Starscream's will completely dominates that of his host. When Starscream possessed [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]], Waspinator's voice even changed to sound like Starscream's, and the [[Insignia|Predacon insignias]] on his body changed to Decepticon insignias. Starscream either did not have, or did not seem to know that he had, this possession ability until he died during the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.

===Rampage/Protoform X===
The creation of Protoform X was an experiment conducted by the [[Maximal Elder|Maximal Elders]] to attempt to replicate Starscream's indestructible spark. Although they succeeded in creating such a spark, dubbed [[Rampage (BW)|Protoform X]] (and later taking on the name [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]), it was, unfortunately, psychotic.

Like Starscream's spark, Rampage's could not be extinguished through simple destruction of his body. In fact, Rampage's body—at least, the body he wore during the Beast Wars—had uncannily rapid self-repair functions. In one instance, Depth Charge pierced Rampage's body from front to back with a spear, and the damage disappeared in a matter of seconds once the spear was removed.

Megatron devised a way to split Rampage's spark by carving it with a blade of [[energon crystal]]. Amazingly, this did not destroy the spark, nor did it seem to weaken Rampage appreciably. Megatron kept part of the spark in a case lined with energon crystals. By squeezing the case, the crystals would pinch the spark fragment, and Megatron used this to torture Rampage into obedience.

Megatron later placed this piece of Rampage's spark inside his [[Transmetal|Transmetal II]] clone of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], who is usually referred to as [[Dinobot II]]. Dinobot II appeared to have a personality wholly independent of Rampage's, although he was similarly brutal. Dinobot II's personality, however, may have been imposed upon him through programming. Dinobot II could torture Rampage by compressing the spark fragment that he held, much as Megatron had previously done. This did not seem to affect Dinobot himself.

Rampage's spark turned out to not be completely indestructible. Seemingly as an extension of Megatron's splitting of the spark with an energon blade, Depth Charge eventually destroyed Rampage by piercing his spark with "pure" crystalline energon. Normally sparks "extinguish" somewhat peacefully, but when Rampage's was pierced, a powerful explosion destroyed the bodies of both Rampage and Depth Charge. It may be that Starscream's spark would be similarly vulnerable to being cut/destroyed by energon, but this is mere extrapolation.

When Rampage's spark was destroyed, the fragment within Dinobot II did not explode. It may have simply disappeared, or it may have remained there. However, through a process which is not clearly established, Dinobot II at that instant "reverted" to the personality of the original Dinobot, and even had a vision of Dinobot's last moments. It may be that this reversion was related to events scripted for an episode which was never produced, titled "[[Dark Glass]]".

Rampage's spark never displayed the ability to move under its own power.

===Megatron===
In season two of ''Beast Machines'', Megatron's spark does a number of unusual things.

As part of the battle between him and [[Optimus Primal]] at the end of season one, during which the [[Key to Vector Sigma]] and the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] were pitted against each other, Megatron somehow was able to "split" his Beast body into two separate bodies, one entirely robotic and the other entirely "biological". (Whether the Beast bodies of the ''Beast Wars'' characters had any true biological components or whether they were faux-flesh composed of nanites is not consistently established in either series.) Contrary to his intentions, Megatron's spark ended up trapped within the biological body, which came to be known as [[Noble|Noble/Savage]].

It is unclear how a biological body was able to sustain a Transformers' spark. Indeed, even the Maximals were surprised when they realized what had happened. It could be argued, based on statements made by [[Vector Sigma|the Oracle]] in the first episode ("[[The Reformatting]]") that all lifeforms in the universe have sparks, not just Transformers. However, this is never alluded to by any other canonical source, so most fans have seemingly dismissed it.

As shown in "[[Prometheus Unbound]]", using the biological Noble/Savage body, Megatron was unable to exercise mental control over devices in his citadel or interface with his [[control harness]]. Upon using a [[spark extractor]] on himself, however, his spark was freed and immediately flew to the harness, which it activated before "flowing" up to the ceiling through the harness's cables. His spark then took over the [[Grand Mal]], an enormous, floating replica of his own head, as its new body and stayed there for part of season two. The Noble/Savage body appeared to be dead, but recovered. After Megatron's spark had left it, it seemed to be a perfectly "normal" animal which had the ability to change between a wolf-like form and a dragon form, possessing little if any sentience.

As soon as his spark had been removed from Noble, it took on an unusual appearance, having turned entirely red or orange in color (perhaps a change similar to that of the reformatted Maximals). Megatron's disembodied spark also seemed to be able to speak even though it had no physical body. It may be that this speech was telepathic, but the spark itself pulsated in perfect rhythm with the words.

While inhabiting the Grand Mal, Megatron's spark was sometimes seen floating freely and under its own power through the construct's interior, particularly in a large space that appeared to serve as his control room. (It was here that he addressed his [[Vehicon general|Vehicon generals]], usually manifesting as a holographic projection of one kind or another.)

[[Image:Spark consumption.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Megatron's spark ensnares and consumes other sparks from his collection.]]
[[Image:Giant megatron spark.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Now enormous, Megatron's spark looms over Cybertron in the vicinity of his Big Floating Head.]]
Eventually, in the three-part "[[Sparkwar]]" story, Megatron's spark began consuming/fusing with the captured sparks of Cybertron's inhabitants. He claimed to have learned how to accomplish this after communicating with the Oracle.

To consume other sparks, Megatron's spark extended tendrils which ensnared victim sparks. These tendrils also had the ability extract sparks from occupied shells, much like a [[spark extractor]]. As each spark was absorbed, Megatron's spark grew larger in size.

Megatron was temporarily beaten when [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] attacked him with a sonic scream. The scream, according to Primal, depolarized Megatron's spark. This caused him to lose control temporarily and allowed the Maximals to escape. In the following episode, "[[Spark of Darkness]]", Megatron's spark exhibited additional strange behaviors which may or may not have been dependent on its depolarized state:

*It travelled very quickly and with great agility.
*It was able to "crash" physically into things to push them around. In particular, it repeatedly knocked the Maximals out of its way.
*It seemed to be able to cause large explosions simply by flying through other objects.
*It could inhabit and leave any sparkless body at will. This ability evidently differs from Starscream's, in that Starscream never animated a vacant body, and Megatron never dominated an occupied one. These re-animated bodies were able to remain functional even after suffering extreme physical damage.
*His spark was not detectable by his Vehicon generals' sensors, and Primal was unable to "sense" his spark through the Oracle.
*The spark did not speak at all while depolarized, neither when in a body nor when floating freely.

Rattrap was able to capture Megatron using a hand-held [[spark extractor]], and using a control panel on the extractor, repolarized and thus stabilized his spark. Afterwards, Megatron's spark remained red and just as fast and agile as before, but became detectable by his generals' scanners again and became "trapped" in the next body it inhabited (that of a [[Diagnostic Drone]]). Upon entering this body, Megatron declared, "I live!" This was the first time he had spoken since being hit by the sonic scream. This implies that something about his prior "destabilized" state may have prevented him from fully utilizing the bodies he had visited. The only other clue we have is that when Optimus tried to contact Megatron's spark inside the Grand Mal, he discovered that it "was not a sentient mind." Whether this is a result of trying to find a spark that was not in the expected location or because of its depolarized state is ambiguous.

===Embers===
One particular [[Shattered Glass|alternate universe]] seems to be much more of a departure from the "regular" realities in the [[multiverse]]. In it, the semi-mystical ball of energy that gives the resident Transformers their lifeforce is an electron-charged "Ember". Aside from the polarity, there's no other difference noted from the [[positron]]-charged Spark that [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] brings into that universe.

==Trivia==
*It is possible there is some quantitative difference between the sparks of Generation 1 Transformers and [[Protoform]] ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks. G1 Transformers' sparks are generally glossed as small fragments of [[Primus]]'s lifeforce. ''Beast Wars''-era Transformers' sparks are generally considered to be the same, but writer [[Larry DiTillio]] has stated that he envisioned ''Beast Wars'' Transformers' sparks as small fragments split from the [[Vok Nebula]]. When a spark is split from Vok Nebula, a "good" one travels to the [[Matrix (facility)|Matrix]] and an "evil" one to the [[Pit]].<ref>[[Beast Wars Universe]]</ref>

==See also==
*[[Allspark]]
*[[Laser core]]
*[[Personality component]]
*[[Shell program]]
*[[Spark of Combination]]
*[[Mitotic spark]]
*[[Binary spark]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beast Machines]]
[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]
[[Category:Religion]]
[[Category:Primus]]

Megatron (Animated)

2009-08-06T22:12:16Z

Fleb: /* Notes */

{{factions|decepticon}}{{disambig3|Megatron}}
:''Megatron is a [[Decepticon]] in the [[Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Megatronanimated.jpg|300px|thumb|An insult to G1, we swear!]] If you were to ask '''Megatron''' to describe himself in one word, he'd probably go with "heroic". He sees himself as a freedom fighter, [[Decepticon leader#Animated|leading]] the Decepticons out of the days of "[[Autobot]] tyranny". The fact he's hoping to replace that with Decepticon tyranny isn't really a concern. A fanatic at [[spark]], he revels in every Autobot who suffers at Decepticon hands and doesn't register humans as anything more than "collateral damage."

Megatron demands loyalty from the Decepticons, loyalty he gains by his awe-inspiring power. With the combined threat of a sharp mind, his [[fusion cannon]], a pair of deadly swords and simple brute strength, there aren't many who'd dare cross him. Still, he has no problem manhandling troops as a gentle reminder.

The loss of his body and former power was only a minor setback for him, as Megatron proved a master manipulator. He effortlessly duped [[Isaac Sumdac]] into helping him--and once Megatron was restored to full power, he turned the tables on his old captor.

He is extremely intolerant of treachery and deals with [[Starscream (Animated)|said treacherous bots]] with a vicious no-nonsense efficiency, [[Megatron (G1)|unlike other Decepticon leaders]]. He is a shrewd strategist and effortlessly [[Scrapper (Animated)|wraps]] [[Mixmaster (Animated)|others]] around his fingers.

{{bigquote|Decepticons... ''transform and rise up!''|Megatron puts a new twist on [[Roll out|an old saying]]|"[[Megatron Rising - Part 2]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Corey Burton]] (English), [[Jan Spitzer]] (German)

[[Image:Megatron Cybertron.jpg|left|thumb|Pointier than thou.]] Eons ago, Megatron led the Decepticons in their war against the Autobots for control of Cybertron and freedom from Autobot tyranny. However, the Autobots under [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] had two major advantages: They possessed the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]], giving them an infinite supply of energy, and they had exclusive [[space bridge]] technology, allowing them to move about the galaxy more easily. However, Megatron's forces continued to fight on until the Autobots sent the AllSpark through the space bridge to random coordinates. Realizing that the AllSpark was the key to defeating the Autobots, Megatron abandoned the Cybertron theater and began searching the galaxy aboard his massive flagship, the ''[[Nemesis (Animated)|Nemesis]]''. However, some Decepticons continued to fight on against the Autobots.

[[Image:TFA TARO Decepticons attention.JPG|175px|thumb|He's not planning on shaking Prime's hand...he's going to tear it off.]] Four million years later, Megatron's crew discovered a [[Autobot ship (Animated)|small Autobot repair vessel]] after detecting the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]]. When [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] volunteered to attack, Megatron saw his ambitions all too clearly, and pointedly remarked that he wasn't about to let four million solar cycles of searching for the AllSpark end with Starscream getting his greasy wings on it. No, Megatron would strike the Autobot ship and take the AllSpark himself. Just prior to his departure, Starscream approached him again, ostensibly to wish him luck, but actually to place an overload device on his leader's back. This device went off just as Megatron's fusion cannon was about to breach the hull of the Autobots' ship. The Autobot crew managed to steer the now-failing ship through an asteroid field and into a nearby [[space bridge]].

With the ship now plummeting through the Earth's atmosphere, a wounded Megatron still managed to thrash the crew soundly and nearly claimed the AllSpark. Quick thinking on the part of [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] sent the Decepticon leader out the cargo hatch and into free fall. Megatron [[Megatron (Movie)|fell from the sky]] and crashed in Paw Paw, Michigan, where his head (and later, a hand) was found by a young [[Isaac Sumdac]].

Over the next fifty years, Sumdac built a robotics empire by reverse-engineering Megatron's components, while, Megatron's inert head remained secretly in Sumdac's private lab, the source of the human's engineering genius and also a secret shame. Megatron's severed hand was there as well, used by Sumdac as a piece of furniture. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out!}}

[[Image:AniMegsHead-TransformAndRollout.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Hey Megatron, don't lose your... oh.]] After the Autobots re-awoke, [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]] used her AllSpark-powered [[Key]] to sneak into her father's lab. He stopped her from seeing anything it contained, but the AllSpark energy from the Key was absorbed by Megatron's head, reawakening his spark and bringing him back online. Confused and disoriented, he automatically brought up video footage of Starscream and the Autobots, footage in which Starscream admitted to his treachery. Furious both at Starscream's betrayal and the fact he didn't have the hands to reach out and take the AllSpark which was finally within his grasp, he released a burst of energy which activated a small drone Dr. Sumdac had been working on. Megatron thus realized he could control the extremely primitive (by his standards) technology around him. Learning Sari was going to spend the night at the Autobot base, he secreted his drone into her backpack. Once she arrived, Megatron sent the drone to look for the AllSpark, but his search was fruitless. He decided to try a simpler method: Kill the Autobots and extract the data from their lifeless corpses. Interfacing with the factory's assembly line, he attacked. As the Autobots fought back, he decided to cut out the middleman and knocked a hole in a fuel tank. [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] realized the factory was working via motion sensors and managed to get close to the control panel. To counter him, Megatron simply took over the factory arms and snatched up Prowl. However, he failed to stop [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]], due to the primitive tools he was forced to use. With his plans foiled, Megatron was out of patience, refusing to work through these worthless proxy machines. He needed a body, which meant it was time to provide some more advanced technology to Sumdac... {{storylink|Home Is Where the Spark Is}}

Megatron soon revealed to Isaac that he still functioned and, when Isaac guessed he was a friend of the Autobots, Megatron played along. He persuaded Isaac to keep his existence secret until Isaac had built him a new body, as then the Autobots would be more forgiving of how Isaac had reverse-engineered their friend. Megatron then helped construct the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobots]], deliberately programming them to go on a rampage and building fire-breath into them as a prototype for a planned army of drones. When they were defeated, Megatron despaired he might never gain a new body, but upon discovering they'd been turned into sentient Transformers, he quickly convinced them that cars, trucks and "[[Autobot|car robots]]" were evil beings that ate the fossil fuels supposedly derived from dinosaurs.

During their second rampage, Isaac realized Megatron had deliberately built weapons into the Dinobots. The tyrant feigned shame, saying he'd added experimental features out of a desire to have a body again. Isaac promised not to tell the Autobots and that Megatron would have a body again one day... {{storylink|Blast from the Past}}

Soon, Dr. Sumdac began attempting to build him some new servos, but these proved inadequate. Megatron revealed that his body would need
[[Destronium]] to work, but Isaac responded there was only a small amount available and that it would have to be delivered across town in less than 10 minutes or it would become unstable. Taking notice of an experimental turbo suit Sumdac's labs were developing (with flaws that possibly precluded Isaac considering it as a solution), Megatron manipulated computer systems so the suit was delivered to small-time hood [[Nanosec|Nino Sexton]]. Once Sexton began using the suit to commit crimes too quickly to be stopped, Megatron contacted him with an offer of much money out of Dr. Sumdac's private account if Sexton used the suit to steal and deliver the Destronium. Between Autobot interference and the suit aging him prematurely, Sexton failed. Worse, the Destronium was energized to a critical level, risking an explosion that would destroy [[Detroit]]. The Autobots barely managed to send the Destronium sample into the upper atmosphere before it exploded, and they were left to wonder why a human had tried to steal it in the first place. {{storylink|Nanosec (episode)|Nanosec}}

After Megatron learned of the power of Sari's Key and the careless nature in which she used it, he attempted to trick her into assisting him. He designed [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]], a musical toy that was secretly meant to grow more powerful every time Sari used the Key upon it, until eventually it would be a suitable robotic body for Megatron himself. When the Key instead brought Soundwave to independent life, Megatron changed his plan and, with convincing logic, recruited Soundwave as a Decepticon warrior. {{storylink|Sound and Fury}}

When [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut]] arrived on Earth, Megatron, remembering Starscream's betrayal, was hesitant to act. After witnessing a battle between his soldiers and the Autobots, Megatron concluded that Blitzwing was too unstable, but Lugnut was genuinely loyal. He contacted Lugnut only, instructing him to locate the AllSpark, which would help restore him. Later, he also informed Lugnut about the Key. Unfortunately, Lugnut and Blitzwing were defeated and damaged by the Autobots, severing Lugnut's link with Megatron—and Megatron's only link to the outside world. {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}}

[[Image:Sumdac megatron%27s body.jpg|200px|thumb|Yeah, it's a fixer-upper.]]
Although Megatron himself was not mentally involved, his headless body was infected with [[space barnacles]], causing the barnacles to mutate into a semi-sentient form. After absorbing two mining bots and attacking a [[Sparkplug (Animated human)|miner]], it was defeated by Bumblebee and Prowl. Later, the body was discovered (minus space barnacles) by Isaac Sumdac and most likely brought back to his laboratory. Sumdac remarked that Megatron would be ''very'' pleased with the find... {{storylink|Nature Calls}}

[[Image:MegRisingRebuilt.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Don't call it a comeback; I've been here for years.]] Sumdac attempted to rebuild Megatron, but progress was slowed by a power failure. Frustrated, Megatron again contacted Lugnut and ordered him to bring him the Key. This communication triggered Starscream's curiosity, and the treacherous jet located Megatron. Starscream didn't have time to <s>finish his speech</s> slay Megatron before he was distracted by the Autobots—and Megatron used that distraction to take Starscream by surprise and eject him from the lab. When Blitzwing and Lugnut arrived with the Key, Megatron revealed his true identity to his human "friend". Sumdac, seized by the mechanical hand he had so long used as a chair, could only watch and wail in horror as the Decepticon tyrant used the power of the AllSpark to reconstruct himself, more powerful than ever. Finally restored, he burst through the roof of [[Sumdac Tower]], to the horror of the Autobots and Starscream, ready to unleash his vengeance on all of them. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 1}}

[[Image:PayThePiper.JPG|200px|thumb|"Will anyone else attempt to fill his shoes?"]] Megatron's revenge was quick and brutal. Trashing the Autobots in short order, he called his Decepticons to him. As Starscream bootlicked, Megatron powered up his fusion cannon to destroy the one responsible for his defeat—then used the Key to send a painful power surge through Starscream, extinguishing the traitor's spark and reinforcing his authority over Blitzwing and Lugnut. He commanded them to "transform and rise up," and the three Decepticons took to the sky, using the Key to track the AllSpark.

[[Image:Megatron Rising 2 All Spark Megs boom.jpg|left|200px|thumb|This is not good...]] Finding it aboard the Autobots' ship, the Decepticons caused the ship to crash on [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]], where Megatron proceeded to beat the [[Slag (slang)|slag]] out of Optimus Prime. Getting into the ship, Megatron removed the AllSpark from its casing and placed it in his chest, preparing to devastate Earth before conquering Cybertron. However, Professor Sumdac used his knowledge of Megatron's circuitry to disrupt his equilibrium sensors, causing Megatron to drop the Key. Optimus Prime used the Key to force a surge of power through the AllSpark within Megatron, causing it to explode and disperse its energy.

And yet, it was not a total loss for Megatron; despite the damage, he escaped and managed to abduct Sumdac. Once again, their fates were intertwined, only this time Sumdac was Megatron's prisoner. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}}

Establishing a base deep underground in a mine, Megatron quickly adjusted his plans after the loss of the AllSpark. During his battle aboard the Autobot ship, he had managed to download a partial [[space bridge]] schematic from their computers. He planned to use the space bridge to teleport himself, Lugnut, and Blitzwing to Cybertron, then conquer the planet from within. To facilitate this plan, Megatron used the captive Professor Sumdac to reverse-engineer the space bridge and fill in the "gaps" within the schematics. However, when a service bot suddenly malfunctioned, it was revealed that a shard of the AllSpark was embedded within it. This gave Megatron hope that the AllSpark was not destroyed, but dispersed throughout the city of Detroit. {{storylink|The Elite Guard}}

[[Image:Swordscream.JPG|200px|thumb|Yes, Starscream, and we'll keep doing it until you get it right!]] Finding out about the AllSpark fragments, however, didn't seem to result in any changes in his plans. Megatron received word from a spy that the Decepticons had begun making random assaults on the Autobots. He realized that they needed to make a concentrated effort in order to secure his victory. He had Lugnut and Blitzwing steal a tachyon transmitter from the [[Cybertron Elite Guard|Elite Guard]] so he could send his message, but was interrupted during his transmission by a revived Starscream. After quickly beating him to a pulp, Megatron relayed his commands to the spacefaring 'Cons, only to be repeatedly attacked by a seemingly invincible Starscream. The renegade even attempted to draw Megatron out with an AllSpark fragment. Megatron emerged victorious every time and was informed by his spy that all was going as planned: With his [[Decepticon Uprisings|forces now drawing the Autobots away from Cybertron]], Megatron could attack a weakened Cybertron from within as soon as his space bridge was completed. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished}}

Later, while at the Decepticon base, Lugnut detected an AllSpark energy signal emanating from Detroit. Megatron quickly dispatched Lugnut to retrieve the AllSpark shard before the Autobots could. Lugnut proceeded to praise his master's "grand and glorious plan", but Megatron, fed up with the adulation to the point of involuntary optic-twitching, curtly commanded his enforcer to get going. {{storylink|Garbage In, Garbage Out}}

[[Image:RiseoftheConstructicons-Megatron%27sprivateblend.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Gentlemen, to evil.]] When Lugnut and Blitzwing brought the [[Constructicons (Animated)|Constructobots]] back to base, Megatron saw the advantage of keeping them alive, and he invited them to have a look at his space bridge schematics. Impressed by their knowledge, he decided to put them to work stealing supplies. After an encounter with [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]], the Constructobots became convinced of "the funny guy's" less-than-noble intentions, and they returned to the mine to confront him. Megatron calmly slammed them both against a rock face and asked them to explain. He feigned shock and brought them in to discuss things over his own private oil blend. Megatron showed himself to be a bit of an oil connoisseur, possessing stylish little goblets for it made of twisted oil drums, as well as a secret stash of top-quality oil and a chamber to drink it in. Megatron spoke of the glories they could achieve as Constructicons: the adulation, the statues in their honor...the barrels of oil they could down. Ever the shrewd worker, it didn't take much for him to convince them to join up, and he promptly sent them to the Autobot base to retrieve the AllSpark fragments. {{storylink|Rise of the Constructicons}}

[[Image:Rise Constructicons Megatron what.jpg|200px|thumb|Constructicons say WHAAAAAT?]] When Starscream escaped from the Elite Guard's ship, Megatron received [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]]'s alert to the Autobots thanks to the stolen tachyon transmitter. Megatron had placed a bounty on the traitor, and [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] (with the unknowing aid of Prowl) pretty much took the opportunity to bring him to the Decepticon leader. Lockdown contacted Megatron to confirm that he had captured a purple-ish "Starscream" (who was acting quite odd and cowardly) and agreed to meet at an abandoned warehouse for the exchange. As "Starscream" was brought to Megatron, Prowl, who was hiding on a rafter high above, accidentally scuffed a small bolt, which grabbed the Decepticons' attention. Not too long after, the Autobots appeared with another, different-colored Starscream. Megatron intercepted Lockdown's escape and announced confusedly that no one was to leave until they found out which was the true Starscream. However, it turned out that both Starscreams were clones with bombs in their [[spark]] chambers designed to destroy Megatron and the Autobots in one go. Quickly thinking up a plan, Megatron and the other Decepticons transformed and escaped forcibly through the ceiling. However, Prowl used the upgrades given to him by Lockdown to send the [[Starscream clone|clones]] into the air, not too far from the fleeing Decepticons, when the bombs exploded. It is unknown if they were wounded, but Megatron later raised the bounty on Starscream—insisting on the ''real'' one this time. {{storylink|A Fistful of Energon}}

He was later contacted by [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]], who attempted to sell him a new weapon. Nothing came of this, as Swindle was defeated before the deal could be closed. {{storylink|SUV: Society of Ultimate Villainy}} Megatron also made some ''"secret"'' transmissions to his [[Shockwave (Animated)|double agent]] on Cybertron in order to settle his new plans for the coming Autobot-Decepticon war. {{storylink|Autoboot Camp}}

[[Image:TFA ABTC1 Megatron Sumdac Hostage.jpg|left|200px|thumb|"Did I tell you about the time I killed the cult leader?"]] Megatron's plans finally seemed on the verge of fruition when Sumdac and the Constructicons completed the space bridge. However, some vital technical aspects made it inoperable. In order to remedy this, Megatron contacted Shockwave to learn who was Cybertron's leading [[Space bridge technician]], which turned out to be the Autobot Bulkhead. Not wishing to leave Doctor Sumdac alone to sabotage the Constructicons' efforts, Megatron took him along as a hostage while he went to capture Bulkhead. Once he had the big Autobot in custody, Megatron threatened to use the [[Headmaster (Animated)|Headmaster]] unit on him if he didn't help make the space bridge operational. To Megatron's satisfaction, Bulkhead agreed and finished the project. Just as the machine was activated, both the Autobots and Starscream and his clone army attacked. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}

The three-way free-for-all ironically forced Megatron and Optimus Prime to team up temporarily, but this quickly ended when Megatron used Prime's body as a shield against one of Starscream's clone's attacks. Despite putting up a decent resistance, Megatron was overwhelmed and held down by two of the Starscream clones. As the original Starscream gloated, he was head-jacked by Isaac Sumdac in the Headmaster unit. Sumdac prepared to fight Megatron himself, but Megatron simply used his strength to throw the two Starscream clones at him, knocking off the Headmaster unit and proving himself the victor. With Starscream incapacitated, the clones sided with Megatron. He then made his own victory speech to his soldiers, declaring he would send Optimus Prime through the bridge to test it. However, the Autobots got some [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|reinforcements]]. Megatron quickly ordered the majority of his forces to deal with this new menace while the Constructicons cleared the space bridge area of rubble. Grabbing Optimus, Megatron threw him into the portal, but was frustrated when Prowl freed his leader in the nick of time, at which point the bridge shut down. Bulkhead declared the power source wasn't strong enough to maintain the link for long, so Megatron grabbed Starscream's AllSpark-powered head to maintain the gateway. However, this provided too much power, sending the space bridge portal out of control. An enraged Megatron decided to terminate Optimus Prime, only for Optimus to slap [[stasis cuffs]] on him, causing him to lose his grip and fall into the portal.

[[Image:TFA ABTC2 Megatron Screamer End.jpg|200px|thumb|"Stop staring at me!"]] With the overload having deleted the space bridge's receiving coordinates, the defeated Megatron was transported to some unknown sector of space. Still immobilized by the stasis cuffs, Megatron's only companion was now Starscream's head, which a cruel twist of Fate had deposited right next to him. Forced to remain face to face with his traitorous ex-lieutenant, Megatron could only trade verbal blows. A most cruel fate, indeed. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}

After their bickering subsided, Starscream began trying to free Megatron from the stasis cuffs, but having no body was a hinderance. Megatron was only freed when Starscream revealed a previously unseen weapon from his mouth. Before their could react, Omega Supreme appeared, offline. Getting aboard him, Megatron was captured by Omega, but was able to convince the simple processor possessing behemoth to take him to Cybertron to face a war crimes tribunal. However, Omega Supreme's attempt to transwarp to Cybertron left them somewhere else in space, but did drain Omega for the time being. Initially disgusted that he was trapped aboard the cause of the Decepticons defeat, as well without his weapons and only Starscream for company, Megatron soon realized that if he could reprogram Omega to serve him, he would be a great advantage.

Managing to hotwire the Autobot with the stasis cuffs and Starscream's AllSpark charged head, Megatron contacted Shockwave to give him a status report on the Earth space bridge. However, the situation was worse than Megatron realized: not only was the space bridge network shut down, but the Earth Autobots could expose Shockwave at any moment. Although Omega Supreme provided an advantage that could end both problems, Megatron decided that the space bridge invasion plan was a failure, and issued a fleet wide stand down order. Heading to Earth, Megatron attempted to use Omega to destroy the Autobots (even though he couldn't remember their names). However, Prowl and Optimus Prime managed to board Omega and sever Megatron's control over him. Unfortunately, Starscream managed to gain control over Omega Supreme, capturing Megatron again. Ever the manipulator, Megatron convinced Starscream that his time would be better spent conquering Cybertron. However, the Autobots managed to install the [[plasmadynamic thruster]] from Megatron's space bridge into Omega Supreme, sending Omega and the two Decepticons aboard warping through space randomly. {{storylink|TransWarped}}

[[Image:TFAni Decepticon Air Lugnut Megatron.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Don't you just hate it when fanboys keep following you?]]
Later, as Lugnut was floating through space following his half-successful escape from the Elite Guard flagship, Omega Supreme transwarped to directly in front of him and he smashed into the bridge window. When Starscream asked Megatron if they were picking up hitchhickers, Megatron simply slapped his head of its position. That was for asking stupid questions.. {{storylink|Decepticon Air}}

Soon thereafter, Megatron gained control of Omega Supreme's transforming mechanism, and by detaching the plasmadynamic thruster was also able to direct their transwarp jumps; however, he could not get the weapons online without the proper access codes. Megatron brought the ship to Cybertron, where they could do little but float helplessly in the air; Megatron reasoned--correctly--that the Autobots would not dare fire on their own most famous weapon (though [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel "Magnus"]] sure wanted to). Megatron ordered Shockwave to hurry up his search for the access codes; once Shockwave successfully abducted Arcee and boarded the ship, they transwarped into Earth orbit right before Sentinel opened fire. Megatron welcomed Shockwave aboard as his "most loyal" servant, to the great concern of Lugnut.{{storylink|This Is Why I Hate Machines}}

Now on the moon, Megatron commanded Shockwave to extract the access codes from Arcee's mind. When Starscream re-attached his head to another clone body, Megatron pursued him and destroyed all the remaining clones, teasing Starscream for having always thought on a small scale. Megatron's ultimate plans for the protoforms aboard the ''Nemesis'' was to use them to create his own clone fleet of Omega Supremes--based on the personality template of his ''truly'' most loyal minion, Lugnut. That part of the plan went just fine, but Shockwave was still unable to get Arcee to do his bidding--perhaps because although she was fooled by his Longarm Prime persona, she saw the evil Megatron standing right behind him and refused to cooperate. After a few technical bypasses put Lugnut in mental command of the "[[Lugnut Supreme]]" fleet, Megatron ordered his new weapons to test their skills by destroying the Earthbound Autobots.{{storylink|Endgame, Part I}}

Observing from within one of the Lugnut Supremes, Megatron's first target for destruction was his former prison, Sumdac Tower. But when the tower's forcefield proved impenetrable and Optimus Prime was able to destroy one of the Lugnut Supremes and severely damage the other two by using the [[Magnus Hammer]], Megatron settled on a new plan: destroying everything that wasn't him. He flew cover over the advancing Lugnut Supremes, directly engaging Optimus Prime (at first mistaken for [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]], then dismissed as a [[knockoff|"cheap imitation"]]) so Prime would not again be able to use the Magnus Hammer on the giants. As their combat raged on, Megatron was at last able to remember Optimus Prime's name, to Prime's bitter enjoyment. The two were later trapped within a prison of Allspark energy--meant to seal in the timebomb that Starscream had secretly placed in one of the Lugnut Supremes--and Megatron reasoned that even if he himself had to die, he could at least kill Prime first. But Prowl's ghost was having none of that, and Megatron soon found himself left alone to be blown up. Though massively damaged, he survived this and turned to attack the Autobots once more. He was quickly defeated by Optimus Prime, and when Megatron then invited Prime to kill him, Prime retorted that that would be "the easy way out," which Megatron did not deserve. Megatron was placed in [[stasis cuffs]] and arrested, then brought back to Cybertron and displayed as a prisoner before the cheering Autobot masses.{{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}

===Titan Magazines===

[[Image:MegatronTitan23.jpg|right|180px|thumb|"NIXON'S BAAACK!"]]

Apart from showing interest in the activities of [[Quake-Maker]] {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 1|Burnout!}}, Megatron seemed idle... but what the Autobots were unaware of was that he'd constructed a Spark-less drone unit, [[Afterburn]], as a prototype of a future army, and then sent Afterburn off to spy on the Autobots.

He not only received repeated communications from his spy, but gained directions to the Autobot base! Megatron entered with explosive results {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Divebomb}} and then ''killed'' Afterburn while rubbing [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee's]] nose in it. He proceeded to summon the other Decepticons and thrash most of the Autobots with ease, making some really bad puns along the way, only stopped when [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] secretly got him buried under a crane. Starscream then "saved" him, making Megatron think he'd turned over a new leaf and thus giving him temporary command until he got better. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Megatron's Revenge}}
{{--}}

==Toys==
===Animated===
[[Image:TFAnimated Deluxe BattleBegins Megatron toy.jpg|250px|thumb|SPAAAACE ROOOAAACH!]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs. Megatron: The Battle Begins''' (Entertainment Pack, 2008)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: Transforms into a sleek spacecraft with, er, VTOL turbofans (presumably designed to show some lineage with his eventual helicopter mode. It's best if you don't think about it too hard). Megatron's signature fusion cannon forms the central chassis and cockpit section of the spacecraft (officially, a "Fusion Fighter"); his sword sections mount on the sides of the cannon for storage, though the blade is unremovable and effectively useless. Like the [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Prime]] figure he comes with, he features a punching gimmick, having a spring-loaded waist that snaps back when twisted. Unfortunately, Megatron's balljoint hips and the swivel joints between his thighs and knees are rather loose, making it difficult to pose the figure in such a way that he stands on his own. The figure features a silver color scheme and battle damage paint applications.

:The design makes it tricky to tell which end of his Fusion Fighter is the front and which is the back.

:This toy was also released in a 2-pack with Prowl as a Wal*Mart [[exclusive]] (see below).

:If you want to be pedantic about it, the battle implied by the battle-pack pairing is technically a timeline impossibility, insofar as it depicts Cybertron Mode Megatron versus Earth Mode Optimus. It is also [[Scale|scaled]] incorrectly, as Megatron was shown as being notably larger than Optimus in ''[[Transform and Roll Out!]]''

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/BattleBeginsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on "The Battle Begins" Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|VoyagerCybMode}}

[[Image:Animated megatron voyager.jpg|250px|thumb|Curse you, Earth's atmosphere!]]
*'''CYBERTRON Mode Megatron''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Accessories'': Missile

: A larger, bulkier, more detailed, and more gimmick-laden iteration of the same character design used in the deluxe-scaled versus pack toy. Note that while both modes of both toys look very similar, they have different transformation mechanisms and are not a simple upscaling/downscaling of each other. Where the deluxe version is straight silver, this version has a pearl-gray paint scheme. The figure features an [[automorph]] gimmick in the chest, which closes like a clamshell in transforming to robot mode. A second automorph gimmick is built into the energon blades on the cannon, swinging them into place to form a polearm. Red translucent plastic is heavily used throughout the figure, including in the light piping for the head and the missile for the spring-loaded cannon. Even his ''fingers'' are made of energon, it seems.

:This toy apparently had a safety modification done late on in the design process (late enough that it doesn't show up on the instructions), possibly as a result of drop test failure. The strut that holds his fusion cannon has been reinforced, and as a result, his cannon cannot be mounted flush against his arm.

:As with the smaller figure above, it's not obvious exactly what end is the front of his spaceship mode. Neither orientation really matches up to the version seen in the show, which had the fusion cannon mounted in a way that's impossible with both toys.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/VoyagerMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Cybertron Mode Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|Leader}}

[[Image:Animated megatron leader.jpg|250px|thumb|He will kill you until you are dead.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Leader, 2008)
**''Accessories'' Missile, 2 rotor-swords

: Megatron's "Earth" robot mode bears a significant resemblance to Generation 1 [[Megatron (G1)#The Battlestars|Super Megatron]] from the ''Battlestars'' storyline, and thus, in turn, to his original G1 body. His alt-mode is a dual-rotored helicopter design, somewhat like an [[Incinerator (Movie)|Osprey]] [[Obsidian|helicopter]] or the [[Cobra]] Mamba. Its rotors form double-bladed swords. The fusion cannon is attached to the left arm out of the box, but it can be detached and put on either arm. It has wheels for use in vehicle mode, and if it is removed, then (undocumented) landing gear can be deployed to make up for the loss. Interestingly, it seems the alt-mode was originally intended to allow for the removal of the cannon without removal of the bottom half of the fuselage. With a fair amount of force the cannon can be popped off (and will reattach), but the cannon mount/fuselage lower half does not provide the front landing gear with sufficient clearance to fully extend. The toy has a [[Gimmick|voice chip]], activated by pressing the Decepticon symbol on his chest. If used in robot mode it says one of three quotes: "Crush the Autobots!", "Where is the AllSpark?", and (glorious) evil laughter. In helicopter mode it makes the sound of the rotors warming up, spinning, and powering down. When the cockpit is moved during transformation the classic G1/Animated [[Transformation#The noise|transformation noise]] is heard. It is compatible with the [[Headmaster (Animated)|Headmaster]] toy, but it does not change his quotes.

: The instructions leave a couple of things out. First, the shoulders should be pushed backwards/upwards for vehicle mode. This lowers the wings down and aligns the front of the engines with the back. Second, the barrel of the cannon can be rotated 180 degrees (at a separate pivot from the one at its base) for robot mode, to better match how it looks in the cartoon, with the red stripes facing his arm. Considering how padded the instructions are to mask the relatively simple transformation (two whole steps just to move the rear landing gear), leaving all this out is quite a feat. Bad Hasbro.

:There is no doubt whatsoever as to which end is the front and which is the back of his vehicle mode.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Leader Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|McDonalds}}

*'''Megatron''' (McDonald's Happy Meal Toys, 2008)

:This is a very simple representation of Megatron in his Earth form. It transforms by rotating the head, lying face down and flipping the arms onto the back. The robot mode seems to have taken priority in the design process, since the vehicle mode looks like his robot mode lying down. Megatron does not come with his signature arm cannon.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/McMegatron/megatron.htm More information on McDonald's Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Activator}}

[[Image:Megatronanimatedactivator.jpg|250px|thumb|"Transform and shrink down!"]]
*'''Megatron''' (Activators, 2008)

:Part of the fourth wave of [[Activators]], this version of Megatron is a very simplified, roughly-Basic-sized version of his Earth mode. His spring-loaded transformation from vehicle to robot mode is activated by a single switch on the back of his copter mode.

:Despite having a cannon on the bottom of his vehicle mode, he does not possess one on either arm in robot mode.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/ActMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Activators Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|ShadowBlade}}

[[Image:SBAniMegs..jpg|200px|thumb|I defy the Unicron Trilogy. Defy it, I say!]]
*'''Shadow Blade Megatron''' (Leader, 2008)

: A [[Black repaint|black]], grey and purple redeco of Megatron's leader class mold with a slight remolding to the tail... that's NOT called [[Megatron (Armada) toys|Galvatron]]. YeabuhWHA?

:Surprisingly for a Hasbro produced redeco, Shadow Blade Megatron is cast entirely in black plastic with the exception of his translucent parts.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Decepticon/SBMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Shadow Blade Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:AnimatedMegatronMovieHat.jpg|150px|thumb|They moonlight as lawn darts.]]
* Megatron's pre-Earth head has a rather pointed resemblance to the somewhat early head of 2007 movie's [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], which went unused in the actual movie but appeared on loads of promotional materials and merchandise. Also in common with Movie Megatron, ''Animated'' Megatron lay inert for many years while his technology was [[Sector Seven|reverse-engineered by humans]].

* He is, additionally, [[Megatron (BW)|not the only Megatron]] to spend time as [[Grand Mal|a giant, disembodied head]].

* Megatron's cannon makes the same sound as his [[Megatron (G1)|Generation 1 counterpart]]'s weapon, except with additional effects mixed in to make it actually sound like a laser cannon.

[[Image:AnimatedMegatronAltmode.jpg|150px|thumb|[[Show-accuracy]] be damned!]]
* Megatron's outer space altmode, shown for all of 20 seconds, has ''two'' toy molds devoted to it. Though these "Cybertron mode" toys resemble each other, neither looks anything like the altmode of the pre-Earth Megatron seen on the show.

* Megatron is the only one of the original 5 Decepticons in Animated to actually have a Cybertronian vehicle mode design. Although the others have different robot mode kibble before they scanned their Earth-modes, none of them had an alt-mode created. Having a toy helps. (This is in contrast to the Autobots, who all had Cybertronian-modes designed for them from the start, even if we didn't see them in the first episode.)

* Sumdac found Megatron's head intact in its original Cybertronian mode. The head housed in his lab however is essentially a damaged version of his Earth mode head. Presumably, this change is the result of Sumdac's destructive tinkering and research over the fifty years Megatron was in stasis lock.

* Early images of Megatron's Earth body were slightly different from the finished product, most notably the lack of a fusion cannon, and a katana instead of his twin swords.

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Decepticon leaders]]
[[Category:Engineers]]

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2009-08-05T15:12:11Z

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Sari Sumdac (Animated)

2009-08-04T15:28:56Z

Fleb: /* Notes */

:''Sari Sumdac is a [[technorganic]] humanoid from the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Sari_Animated.JPG|thumb|150px|[[Isaac Sumdac|Daddies]], don't let your babies grow up to be [[Kiss Player]]s.]]
'''Sari Sumdac''', the technorganic daughter of robotics genius [[Isaac Sumdac]], didn't used get out much. She spent all her time within her father's laboratories, receiving her education from [[Tutor Bot|robots]]. Despite this, she doesn't seem like a shut-in. She's curious, excitable, adventurous, and knows that crying can sometimes get her what she wants. She's just never known what it's like to be around other kids. Fortunately, she has [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] to help with that, and she claims that 'Bee is the best friend she's ever had. In fact, she's become very possessive of all her robotic friends.

It was believed that Sari was a normal human, until it was revealed that she was made from a [[protoform]] and her father's DNA. Hence, the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] viewed her with great regard, bestowing upon her a [[key]] with miraculous powers (though her guardian, the robotic dog [[Sparkplug (robot dog)|Sparkplug]], thought it was just another chew toy).

Since discovering her true origin, she has absorbed the power of the Key to gain incredible Cybertronian abilities such as increased strength, speed, and the ability to create destructive spheres of energy with her hands, as well as the ability to transform into an armoured form with technological weaponry (most of which [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] was forced to seal away after she proved unable to control it). She also owns a scooter which can transform into a jet pack.

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Tara Strong]] (English), [[Tanja Schmitz]] (German), [[Agnieszka Wajs]] (Polish)

[[Image:TransWarpedProtoform.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Megatron was also a cute little protoform like this once. Makes you think, doesn't it?]]
Sari's origins are shrouded in mystery. She came into existence when a [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] [[protoform]] appeared in Isaac Sumdac's laboratory. The baffled scientist reached out to touch the small, liquid metal creature, and received an electric shock that knocked him unconscious. When he awoke, the protoform had scanned his DNA and reconfigured into a techno-organic creature that appeared to be a human baby. Sumdac "adopted" the robot child and named it "Sari", and raised it as his own daughter over the next eight years. Understandably, Sumdac was reluctant to let Sari out into the world, and instead kept her mostly confined to [[Sumdac Tower]], educating her with [[Tutor Bot|robot tutors]] and creating robotic companions like her pet Sparkplug to keep her company. {{storylink|TransWarped}} Precisely ''how'' the protoform that became Sari appeared in Sumdac's lab is unknown; Sari herself seems to believe that she was one of the protoforms stolen from the [[Cyber-Ninja Corps]] by [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] millions of years ago and stored aboard the ''[[Nemesis (Animated)|Nemesis]]'', but given that those protoforms were [[blank]]s, and that it was a different size and shape to all the other protoforms seen, this seems unlikely. {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}

[[Image:SariLayingDown1.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Yūki Ōshima]] is drooling as we speak.]]
One day, when Sparkplug stole her security key card, Sari chased it outside and was confronted by the Autobots [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]], who hadn't quite yet fathomed what humans were, and spoke to her as if she were Sparkplug's pet. Naturally, she freaked out, but quickly befriended Bumblebee once he saved her from a giant bug that had grown from her father's nanite experiment gone awry. Stowing away on Bumblebee and coming aboard the [[Teletran-1|Autobots' ship]], she came across the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]], which infused part of its power into her security key. This allowed her to heal [[Transformer|Transformers]], such as the injured [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]], earning her brownie points with the 'Bots. She also managed to talk the police down from shooting the Autobots, saying they were friendly (except [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]], who was grumpy, but not evil). Sari later helped teach the Autobots about [[Earth]] and [[Human|humans]], explaining their method of reproduction to a ''very'' startled [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]].

[[Image:Sariprime.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Prime was never the same after this.]]
During the unveiling of her father's new transit system, [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] arrived and attacked. Bumblebee took a shot meant for Sari, allowing Starscream to capture him, Professor Sumdac, the Mayor, and [[Captain Fanzone]]. Sari came up with the idea to distract Starscream while she and Prowl rescued the others (even faking some tears to make it happen). The Key later saved Optimus Prime's life when she used it, in concert with the AllSpark itself, to revive his [[Spark]]. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

Sari would go on to be Bumblebee's usual partner in crime, encouraging him to engage in such questionable activities as high-profile wrestling matches {{storylink|Total Meltdown}} and installing rocket boosters to make him go faster. {{storylink|Nanosec (episode)|Nanosec}} Sari likely hangs out with Bumblebee because she knows she can scare the holy be[[Primus]] out of him. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider}}

[[Image:Saricostume.jpg|thumb|right|100px|Trivia: Transformers [[Generation 1|used to]] look like this.]]
On Sari's eighth birthday, the only other kids who turned up were the children of her dad's employees. None of them really wanted to be there and soon focused their attention on the Autobots. Sari was left alone and shunned along with Bulkhead, both morose that the kids didn't like them. Her father's present, a music robot called [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]], cheered her up, and she soon began neglecting her friendship with Bulkhead in favour of her new toy. Repeated uses of the Key turned Soundwave into a malevolent, sentient being who tried to enslave Humanity, and she learnt she'd been wrong to ignore her friend. {{storylink|Sound and Fury}}

When the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]] [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut]] arrived on Earth, the two Decepticons manhandled the Autobots. Although they survived, it made apparent the fact that more would come looking for the AllSpark, so the Autobots decided to repair their ship and leave Earth. Sari's reaction to this was displeasure (in the form of a high pitch shout of NO!). However, they needed the Key to assist Ratchet in repairing the ship. Sari was unwilling to help them leave, and neither was she pleased to work with a grouch like Ratchet (who was not that keen on working with a [[Protoform]]), but they managed to get her to the ship. While alone with the AllSpark, Sari decided to try and sabotage the ship, thereby keeping the Autobots on Earth (and dooming her species to enslavement and/or extinction) but the Key repaired the damage. After that, the AllSpark showed her an image of [[Megatron (Animated)|a giant Transformer]]. In her panic, Sari opened the air lock, nearly drowning, but Ratchet saved her. Ratchet then explained that they were leaving because they couldn't risk anything happening to Earth or her. Swayed by his compassion, Sari used the Key to reactivate the Autobot ship's decommissioned weapons, reducing Blitzwing and Lugnut to pieces. {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}}

Eventually, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] decided that the Key was no longer safe in Sari's hands, and he ordered Ratchet to take it from her. Distraught, Sari ran off crying, only to be captured later by [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]], who was looking for the Key herself. Sari basically told her "too little, too late," and the two seemed to have a heart-to-heart about their gripes with the Autobots. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 1}}

[[Image:Megatron_Rising_Sari_chomp.JPG|thumb|left|175px|Isaac isn't the world's best dad, but he does know a good dentist.]]
While Sari was actually misleading Blackarachnia in circles around the frozen Lake Erie, she was grabbed by Ratchet as he brought the Autobots' ship out of the lake. She was ticked that Ratchet had lost the Key and that her dad had helped rebuild [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], but the blame game ceased after the ship crashed on [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]]. Prime told the Sumdacs to stay with the ship while they went to fight off Megatron. Fearing that they might die, Isaac Sumdac said that there was something that he needed to tell Sari, but she was more interested in finding something else the AllSpark could charge. The AllSpark refused to respond, other than cryptically displaying an image of a DNA strand. Suddenly, Megatron and Prime burst through the hull of the ship, and during their fight, the Key once again fell into her hands. Sari tossed it to Optimus Prime, who used the Key destroy the AllSpark and disperse its energy. Acknowledging that he had been wrong in taking from her, Optimus Prime gave the Key back to Sari, saying that as the most powerful Cybertronian artefact on Earth, it was too important to be left in the hands of an Autobot.

Unfortunately, all was not well, for Sari could not find her dad...as he was now a prisoner of Megatron. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}}

[[Image:Dramatic_change_in_plot.jpg|thumb|The tide has turned!]]
After her father's disappearance, Sari took over running [[Sumdac Systems]]. Board chairman [[Porter C. Powell]] opposed her, saying that she was too young and wasting company resources searching for her father. When the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]] arrived, Sari was cut off from the Autobots and her only source of emotional support. She soon needed them, as police drones coming out of a Sumdac assembly line began to malfunction, and Powell was unwilling to do anything about it. Sneaking aboard the [[Elite Guard flagship]], Sari put the fear of god into [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] before Bulkhead explained that Sari was okay (and Bumblebee explained that [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] was a jerk). With Optimus, Prowl, and Jazz's help, Sari managed to get into the plant's assembly line and shut down the systems. When she returned home, she found that she had been locked out of her office, as Powell was now CEO and Chairman of Sumdac Systems. Insisting that it was still her company, Sari was shocked when Powell revealed that she had no birth certificate, no adoption papers, and no social security number. Powell's smug revelation made Sari realize that not only was there no proof that she was Sumdac's daughter, there was no legal proof she even existed. {{storylink|The Elite Guard}}

After that, Powell kicked Sari out of Sumdac Tower, took Tutor Bot and Sparkplug, and gave her room to [[Headmaster (Animated)|Henry Masterson]] as an office. With nowhere else to go, she went to Autobot headquarters. Bumblebee and Bulkhead tried their best to cheer her up, employing such methods as loud music, inedible food, and unedifying teaching lesson. All they did was make things worse. Eventually, Prowl put the two bots in their place and told them to ''listen'' to her. Sari opened up about all her frustrations, such as her missing father, being kicked out of her home, her fear of Powell ruining her father's company, and the fact that there was no record of her existence. Bumblebee promised that they were there for her, no matter what, and Sari finally started to feel a little better. {{storylink|The Return of the Headmaster}}

[[Image:MissionAccomplished-Fanzoneindressinggown.jpg|thumb|left|Peekaboo!]]
And then [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] decided that the Autobots couldn't be there for her, as the Decepticons had begun attacking the fringes of Autobot space, so Prime's crew were needed elsewhere. The Autobots decided that Captain Fanzone was the best human with whom to leave her. (Granted, their list of known humans was rather short and included [[Meltdown (Animated)|Prometheus Black]] and [[Nanosec]].) Before anything close to adoption could occur, they managed to convince Magnus that there were Decepticons on Earth (mostly because Starscream fell out of the sky and landed about ten feet in front of them), allowing them to stay on planet. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished}}

Sari amused herself after settling in with the Autobots by hooking up illegal satellite TV, which she used to watch pay-per-view races. (The races were also illegal, as the Autobots found out from Fanzone.) When Bumblebee wanted to join the races to compete against a mysterious blue car, Sari came along with him. Sari discovered that man in charge of the races, [[Master Disaster]], had a remote control containing an AllSpark fragment, which he used to control the blue car. Blitzwing showed up to take the fragment, so and Bumblebee had to run for their lives. Eventually, she used the remote to get rid of Blitzwing, allowing the Autobots to get the AllSpark fragment. After that, Bumblebee severed her satellite connection, saying that he had to set a better example for her. Sari advised him not to try too hard, or she wouldn't recognize him. {{storylink|Velocity}}

[[Image:Rise_Constructicons_Sari_no_pigtails.jpg|thumb|Don't mess the 'do.]]
Sari was awakened from her night's rest by the loud cavorting of the [[Constructicon (Animated)|"Constructobots"]]. A game of flattened-oil-barrel frisbee severed her trademark pigtails, which left her none too pleased. {{storylink|Rise of the Constructicons}} Subsequently she proved that she was still more mature than Bumblebee in a number of ways, warning him off of taking on villains solo just to prove a point. Sadly he wouldn't realize this until the Decepticon behind the villains' success, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] was revealed. By then it was too late, and she had to team up with those same villains to take his immobilized chassis to Sumdac Tower. Alarmed that the receptionist robot was now declaring it to be Powell Tower, she utilized the Key to rectify that little situation before heading off and successfully disabling Swindle's technology jamming device. {{storylink|SUV: Society of Ultimate Villainy}}

A while after, Prowl and Sari were honing their agility using the factory's old assembly line. Sari claimed she could complete the exercise at full speed, like Prowl, but it was set to a quarter-speed, which proved to be too much for her at that and got a massive whack upside the head for her pains. After the Autobots discovered the return of the [[Constructicon (Animated)|Constructicons]], Sari was left at the base at the command of Optimus, who told reminded her that they had almost decapitated her [[Rise of the Constructicons|the last time they met]]. Also, he doubted she would be able to take on a pair of two-story robots. At first Sari sulked at her situation, before realizing that she was completely alone in the base and did what any eight-year-old kid would do in an abandoned factory: raid the vending machines, use cranes as miniature G-force slings and try to take on Prowl's obstacle course at full speed (which went as well as last time).

[[Image:SariNoOne%27sHome-Mixmaster%2CScrapperandSari.jpg|thumb|left|200px|They're here to kick aft and drink oil. And they're all out of oil.]]
While listening to her music, Sari failed to notice the alarms going off, which heralded the invasion of the Constructicons who were looking for [[Oil|a drink]]. After the two louts accidentally crushed her cell phone and left her with the option of sneaking to the communications room to call the Autobots for help, Sari decided—after a council of war with her teddy bear—to take on the two bots using her trusty hockey stick (which shatters soon after she strikes them with it). She escaped and made it to the communication room, contacting Bumblebee who told her to hide and wait until they finish fighting off the recently appeared [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]], who was also looking for the Constructicons. Sari concluded that it would be too long and set up a trap for the two invaders, using three barrels of oil to trip them up and the plant's assembly line to knock them around for a while, forcing [[Mixmaster (Animated)|Mixmaster]] and [[Scrapper (Animated)|Scrapper]] to flee. The Autobots returned to find the place in ruins, but Sari showed them that she was all right. Optimus both apologized for his previous comments and lauded her for her bravery, and all was well for Sari—if she could just explain away the mountain of candy wrappers Optimus discovered... {{storylink|Sari, No One's Home}}

Sari later posed for a Picasso-style picture done by Bulkhead. The results were...interesting, to say the least. After criticism by the Autobots, a depressed Bulkhead walked out, and Sari and Bumblebee went to cheer him up. During a walk in the park, Megatron attacked them, carrying an imprisoned Isaac Sumdac with him, and Sari realized that Megatron had kidnapped him all those months ago. (Apparently, that hadn't occurred to anyone else.) While she looked on helplessly, Megatron managed to kidnap Bulkhead. When she returned to the plant, she heard the Autobot [[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]] reveal that Professor Sumdac was helping the Decepticons build a [[space bridge]] to conquer Cybertron. Sari refused to believe that her father was willingly helping the Decepticons and got a promise out of Optimus Prime to bring him home alive. Heading to Dinobot Island, Ratchet and Sari worked to bring the Autobots' ship back online. Ratchet realized that they would need riskier repairs to bring achieve their goal. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}

[[Image:TFA_ABTC_Sari_spoilers.jpg|thumb|150px|It's a strange thing when the human companion's story arc is more interesting than the robots.]]
As Ratchet worked, he explained that the ship was an Autobot who had sacrificed his spark two million years ago. Sari was doubtful that it would come back online...until it spoke to her. She proceeded to use the Key on several of the ship's systems, under Ratchet's direction, until it was able to take off. Taking it to the mine where the Decepticons were based, Sari managed to give the ship enough power to transform into its robot mode, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]]. The massive Autobot turned the tide of the battle, but sacrificed himself to save the others from being sucked into the space bridge. The Autobots managed to escape, with both Sari and Isaac in tow, and Isaac revealed that he had been forced to work with the Decepticons. Overjoyed that her father was safe and still a good guy, Sari dubbed Isaac Sumdac the most honest and trust-worthy guy that anyone could hope to find. It was at that point that everyone assembled noticed that the skin on Sari's elbow had torn away, revealing robotic circuitry underneath. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}

Although Sari was at first scared by this strange discovery, her fear quickly gave way to anger at her father for having kept the secret that she was a robot from her for years. As they returned to Detroit, Sumdac explained how he had found Sari in his lab years before, but the girl remained incredulous, and things only got worse when the pair confronted Porter C. Powell and Henry Masterson back in Sumdac Tower. When the two men refused to vacate the building, Sari's strained patience snapped, and her hands suddenly transformed into energy projectors, which created a shock wave that knocked the pair of do-badders into the elevator. Struggling to comprehend her true nature, Sari went with the Autobots to their headquarters, unable even to be in the same building as the man she could no longer even think of as her father. Optimus Prime did his best to patch up the damaged family relationship by tricking Sari into meeting with Sumdac at [[Burger Bot]], but it wasn't until Masterson returned with his Headmaster unit attached to Starscream's body that the bonds between father and daughter were repaired, as Sari and Sumdac defended each other from the villain.

[[Image:TransWarpedSariFocus.jpg|thumb|left|Okay Sari, focus. Let go of old thinking, focus on the transformation within. The key is finding the balance in yourself. Then, and only then, can you truly say...]]
Sari quickly began to get a handle on her new Cybertronian powers, learning to project spheres of energy from her hands, but the Autobots still refused to allow her to accompany them into battle against a rock-like alien creature that had just [[transwarp]]ed into the middle of Detroit. Seeking a means to increase her powers, Sari turned her Key upon herself and underwent a surprising metamorphosis: Her body was "aged" so that she appeared to be a teenager, and she sprouted powerful battle armour equipped with jet-skates, arm-blades and an energy-hammer.

[[Image:TransWarpedSariUpgrade.jpg|thumb|150x200px|..."I am transformed!"]]
Although Sari's new powers amazed the Autobots when she made short work of the rock-alien, things soon started to go wrong, as the Key's energy began overloading Sari's circuitry, causing her to run out of control. Unable to control her own body and causing objects around her to explode with her merest touch, Sari nearly killed Bumblebee by stabbing him with one of her blades before the Autobots were able to remove the key from her system. Even with the Key extracted, Sari's energies were still running wild, and she was in danger of exploding and destroying the entire city before Ratchet knocked her out with his EMP generator. Once they returned to the Autobot base, he bypassed the circuitry responsible for her overload.

[[Image:TransWarpedBumblebeeSari.jpg|thumb|left|''You've been hit by/ You've been struck by/ A smooth criminal'']]

As Sari convalesced, her father at her side, Megatron returned to Earth in control of Omega Supreme. Optimus Prime was forced to contemplate undoing the repairs done to Sari and using her to stop the rampaging superweapon as a last-ditch desperation play. When Starscream took control of Omega away from Megatron and locked down all the entrance hatches to prevent the Autobots from infiltrating the robot (again), he came to the point of ordering Ratchet to do so. Fortunately for Sari's (and Detroit's) continued existence, Ratchet refused, and the Autobots ultimately transwarped the threat off Earth. Soon after, Sari awoke and apologized to her friends for her foolishness, while her father apologized to her for holding back the truth for so long. {{storylink|TransWarped}}

After convalescing, she was next seen on [[Christmas]] Eve, making some [[oil-nog]] for the Autobots and warning them to stay off Santa's naughty list. When they went to bed early, thanks to a [[Sound Wave]] toy spiking the 'nog, she called them a bunch of party-poopers, but wished them a Merry Christmas and went home.

The next morning, she wasn't happy to receive another Sound Wave toy from her father, given [[Sound and Fury|what had happened with the last one]], and was further disappointed when she was given a motor scooter rather than a car...until she found out that it transformed into a jet pack. Overjoyed, she transformed to her robot mode and flew off to show Bumblebee. When she arrived at the Autobots' base, she found it apparently deserted, and was further puzzled when the base's scanners showed their energy signatures in the factory itself. The appearance of a [[Laserbeak (Animated)|creepy robot bird]], leading a number of Sound Wave toys from an elevator in the floor (which she'd not known about before), didn't help matters, so she used her palm blasters on them and took the lift down.

In the basement, she found the Autobots wired into a VR machine by a fully rebuilt Soundwave. With most of her weaponry offline, she was no match for him and his instruments when she tried to stop him. She was forced to retreat, promising to come back for her friends... {{storylink|Human Error, Part I}}

While she was flying back to Sumdac Tower, Soundwave decided to take over the whole city of Detroit, using the small Sound Waves to carry his hypnotic tunes, since reprogramming the Autobots was taking too long. As such, she arrived back to find a Sound Wave toy blaring hypnotic music at her...and kicked it out of the way. Soundwave deduced that her techno-organic nature made her immune to the music, and he shifted focus to trying to force everyone ''else'' to kill her, starting with her father!

After reluctantly dropping a shelving unit on her dad to make her escape, she flew to Dinobot Island for help. Her initial foray met with little success, since [[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock]] and [[Swoop (Animated)|his pteranadon comrade]] refused to help, tried to kill her, then left her alone when she blasted at them. Grimlock's mention that the third member of his group had been kicked out for becoming someone's "pet" raised her curiosity, though, and she soon found Scrapper, separated from the other two Constructicons by [[Three's a Crowd|a big explosion]], on the island's shore playing with "[[Snarl (Animated)|Snarl]]", and she managed to conscript the two into rescuing the other Autobots.

On their way back to the mainland on a makeshift raft, [[Wreck-Gar (Animated)|Wreck-Gar]] abruptly popped up from the lake's bottom and immediately became the fourth member of the troupe of [[Substitute Autobot|Substitute Autobots]]. Once they were ashore, Sari's chaotic attempt to get them to transform and roll out nearly had them leave her behind, but it became moot before too long when Soundwave flew out of the ground, followed by the brainwashed Autobots. Initial attempts by her group at fighting them went badly, as the Substitute Autobots proved incapable of working at a team, while the zombie-Autobots acted as a single, elegant machine under Soundwave, and Soundwave could even control her own jet pack. Sari then changed tack, abandoning efforts to co-ordinate her group and ordering them to attack as individuals. Soundwave's single, elegant machine had trouble multitasking, apparently leading to Prowl saving Sari from death at Bumblebee's stingers in an attempt to deliver his own blow.

This lasted until, with four Autobots down, only Optimus Prime remained...whereupon Soundwave could concentrate on controlling just one Autobot properly. As a result, Sari was almost killed by the enslaved Optimus—but was saved again by Prowl, who openly revealed that he'd broken Soundwave's control in knocking Ratbat away from him. Shortly after, Soundwave was again shattered into many pieces, and Sari could once again concentrate on celebrating Christmas with her adopted family and her father. {{storylink|Human Error, Part II}}

[[Image:TFA-DecepticonAir-SariHands.jpg|thumb|(Insert ''Ghost in the Shell'' joke here)]]
When Bulkhead and her father belatedly completed the space bridge they'd been working on (after the purpose they'd been making it for had been accomplished), Sari objected that they would have gotten it working sooner if they'd let her help. They scoffed and went back to bickering about the final tweaks...so Sari took it upon herself to head over to the console, where her eyes glowed, her hands separated into wires, and she finished the setup in seconds. When Optimus asked just ''how'' she'd managed that, she replied that she didn't know how, she just...had. Further, when Sentinel Prime sent an encoded message to Optimus that things had gone horribly wrong on the Elite Guard's ship, Sari managed to lock onto the transwarp signature of Swindle's personal storage dimension to get Optimus aboard, after Bulkhead wasn't sure it was even possible.

[[Image:TFA-DecepticonAir-SariKnowsStuff.jpg|thumb|left|"I'm Sari Sumdac. I know stuff."]]
Later, after Swindle had departed the ship and Bulkhead wasn't sure he could retrieve Optimus, she claimed she could fix it and that she'd figured out why, guessing she must have upgraded her "processor...or brain or whatever" as part of her wider upgrade. However, putting it to the test wasn't necessary, as the ship dropped off Optimus at Sumdac Tower, safe and sound. {{storylink|Decepticon Air}}

When Optimus Prime abruptly decided he needed a jetpack of his own, Sari, along with Ratchet and her dad, was called into service to make it happen, which included Sari diagnosing a problem just by touching it. {{storylink|Endgame, Part I}} The flight pack soon got its baptism of fire when Megatron unleashed a trio of [[Lugnut Supreme]]s on Detroit. Initially, Sari wanted to confront the giant Decepticons with Optimus and Prowl, but Optimus told her no. As she began to throw a hissy-fit about being kept back for her own safety again, he cut her off and told her he wanted her to help protect her "fellow organics" with the other Autobots. Embarrassed, she backed down.

Later, when Ratchet, Bumblebee and Bulkhead were about to depart for the Moon in an attempt to take back the original Omega Supreme, she insisted on transwarping there with them. Her worried father attempted to forbid her, but she told him that she knew there was something there she needed to do, and flew into the space bridge. Once there, Sari could hardly believe she was really on the Moon, but her amazement was soon tabled when Ratchet spotted Arcee, leading to the quartet being ambushed by [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]]. While Bumblebee and Bulkhead held the shape-shifting Decepticon off, Sari and Ratchet headed into Omega Supreme's inactive body with the damaged fembot and found the lab Shockwave had been using. Although slightly freaked out by the female robot's mindless repetition of lessons for young Cybertronian 'bots, Sari was able to use her technopathy to tell Ratchet how to restore her mind. Shortly after Arcee came fully back online, Bumblebee and Bulkhead came in with news for Sari. They took her down into the hold of the [[Nemesis (Animated)|Decepticons' ship]], where several blank protoforms lay. Believing that this was where she had come from, Sari reached out to touch one of the protoforms, confirming for herself that there really had been a reason for her to be there.

Meanwhile, Ratchet and Arcee had broken Lugnut's hold over Omega Supreme and reactivated the giant Autobot, and Sari joined the others in flying back to Earth aboard the ship. As he fought with his purple duplicates, those inside were shaken about. After a particularly hard hit from the last clone standing, which forced Omega to transform to ship mode and crash-land, he checked that those inside were all right, whereupon Sari noted that "all Autobots, half-bots and almost-bots" were present and accounted for. Shortly afterward, Prowl gave his spark to shield the city from the last Omega-clone's detonation, and Megatron was defeated and arrested. Sari accompanied the Autobots back to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] to share in their triumphant return. {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}

===Titan Magazines===
[[Image:Bumblebeepizza_Titan25.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Why said pizza didn't fly out of the box is another story.]]

When Starscream and [[Starscream clone|his clones]] seized the Autobot base, Sari immediately fled to Dinobot Island to get help. She found out the Dinobots were being made grouchy by the constant rain, so she promised they could stay in the Autobot base until it stopped if they drove out the Decepticons. That made Sari Grimlock's friend and left the Autobots crying when they saw the weather forecast. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 17|Dino-MIGHT!}}

Being present for [[Quake-Maker|Quake-Maker's]] first attack on Detroit, she got to see the arrival of shiny new hero [[Afterburn]]. She was smitten at first sight. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 1|Burnout}} She even got to hang with him on a mission to Dinobot Island! As well as be stunned by his ace moves, she used her Key to heal a wounded Grimlock and suffered emotional abuse when Ratchet faked his death to test Afterburn. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 2|Ratchet & Grimlock Are DEAD?}}

Later, while watching a basketball game, Sari had to help stop an attack on the city by the villainous [[Crossroads]]. She'd met the supervillain when he'd worked at [[Sumdac Systems]] but his awesome disguise of a blue strip of cloth on his head threw her for a few minutes. Once she'd worked it out, she was able to inform the Autobots he was heading for [[Sumdac Tower]] and helped see to his defeat. {{storylink|Animated Comic issue 3|Crossroads!}}

Sari hit on a solution to Bumblebee and Prowl's macho posturing, setting up a race between the two in [[Crazy Coyote Canyon]] to determine who was the fastest. And she draw [[:Image:CoyoteCanyonmap.jpg|an adorable little map]] of the race track. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|The Race}}

==Notes==
[[Image:TFA_Sari_Sumdac_prelim_promo.JPG|thumb|left|120px|NOT show accurate.]]
[[Image:Sari_tbob_trike.jpg|thumb|right|I d-d-don't think th-this is s-such a g-g-good idea, Scott!]]
* A promotional image of Sari from the [[Cartoon Network]] ''Transformers Animated'' press kit showed her with different shoes, a different Key design, and a slightly darker skin tone.

* In a preliminary version of the opening credits, Sari appeared riding on a tricycle which she used the Key to transform into a jet pack. The footage was dropped from the finished credits, but was screened at conventions and was later included on the DVD packaged with the Optimus Prime and Megatron "The Battle Begins" action figure two-pack. The concept was later recycled as a Christmas present from her father in "[[Human Error, Part I]]"; instead of a tricycle, she has an [[Sureshock (Armada)|orange scooter]] which transforms into a jet pack compatible with her robotic body. She may have been gone for four episodes, but now she can fly!

* Sari's pigtails do ''not'' grow back overnight...or do they?

* Sari has a transformation noise shared only with her scooter/jetpack, likely because of her rather unique origin.

* Sari did not appear for four episodes in S3—between "[[Three's a Crowd]]" and "[[Predacons Rising]]"—after her almost-disastrous upgrade, the longest time she has been absent in the series so far. Well, considering the shift in focus...not to mention [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]]'s presence on Earth for three of those episodes, perhaps it's just as well. He'd probably have totally freaked out as soon as he saw her.

* Ever since her [[TransWarped]] upgrade, she has what appear to be [[articulation]] lines on her sleeves and stockings/socks.

* Sari's hands can transform into several different modes, two of which pay homage to the anime ''Ghost in the Shell'' and ''[[Iron Man]]''.

* From [[TransWarped]] onward, her eyes were an inverted version of Autobot eyes, with the lighter shade of cyan as the "whites" and the darker shade as the "iris".

* Despite the controversial [[Key]] no longer being a part of the series, it can be argued that Sari is slowly turning into a ''deus ex machina'' just like it in her own right, merely by virtue of [[Decepticon Air|"knowing stuff" crucial to the storyline]] (often ''without'' a proper explanation), as well as being able to diagnose mechanical problems [[Endgame, Part I|merely by touching a given machine]].

* According to the panel at the 2009 Botcon,Sari's Cybertronian/robotic nature was planned from the very beginning.[http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-news-rumors/236269-botcon-2009-animating-animated-panel-coverage.html]

* So... Sari's never scraped her knee or anything before? Ever?

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sumdac, Sari}}
[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Female Transformers]]
[[Category:Humans]]
[[Category:Transformers]]

Bumblebee (Animated)

2009-08-04T15:25:08Z

Fleb: /* Animated cartoon */ link

{{picsneeded|Cartoon screencaps}}
{{disambig3|Bumblebee}}
:''Bumblebee is an [[Autobot]] from the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Bumblebeeanimated.jpg|thumb|300px|Little. Yellow. Different.]]
'''Bumblebee''' is the youngest, yellowest, and most energetic of the Autobots...[[Bumblebee (G1)|as]] [[Bumblebee (Movie)|usual]]. A hyperactive wisecracker, Bumblebee is quite convinced he's the fastest—and coolest—thing on four wheels. He has a tendency to bite off more than he can chew, so it's a good thing he pals around with the massive [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]]. He does ''not'' take well to being called short, and his over-eager ways can get on [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet's]] nerves all too easily. Still, Bumblebee is good people, as evidenced by his fast friendship with [[Sari Sumdac]].

{{bigquote|I may be small, but I'm scrappy! And I can ride circles around your big, old, rusty chassis!|Bumblebee to Bulkhead|"[[Total Meltdown]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Bumper Robinson]] (English), [[Santiago Ziesmer]] (German), [[Krzysztof Korzeniowski]] (Polish)

[[Image:Autobot_Cadets.jpg|thumb|left|250px|There's a [[Wasp|green me]] and a [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|red me]]!]]
Early in his career, Bumblebee dreamed of becoming a member of the [[Cybertron Elite Guard|Elite Guard]]. He joined the [[Autobot boot camp]], but things didn't exactly go as planned—his [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|drill sergeant]] was a jerk, [[Wasp|most]] of his [[Ironhide (Animated)|classmates]] bullied him and the only bot willing to befriend him was a complete [[Bulkhead (Animated)|mudflap]]. His luck seemed to change, however, when he accidentally overheard someone communicating with a Decepticon. He then saw fellow classmate [[Wasp]] walk out, which aroused his suspicions. After taking the advice of [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm]], Bumblebee attempted to weed out the spy, but Sentinel Minor got in the way twice. Needless to say, this resulted in many transform-ups for his squadron. After Wasp and Ironhide tore off his legs and put him in a closet, he was saved by Longarm, who encouraged him not to give up. Later that day, the group was put through their first training exercise—combat in a simulated battlezone. When somebody switched the turret settings to fire actual lasers, it was Bulkhead who saved him. However, they accidentally knocked over a building in the process, flattening Sentinel.

When Sentinel was conducting a surprise locker inspection, Sentinel discovered a Decepticon communicator in Wasp's trunk, ousting him as a traitor. Sentinel was prepared to put Bumblebee on an Elite Guard fast track program. Sadly, his new friendship with Bulkhead forced him to throw it all away in order to prevent his new buddy being kicked out, and they both wound up working on [[space bridge]]s. {{storylink|Autoboot Camp}}

[[Image:Bumblebeeanimatedpreearth.jpg|thumb|250px|Wait... who are [[Hot Shot (Animated)|you]]?]]

The two friends were assigned to [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]'s space bridge repair [[Teletran-1|vessel]]. During one mission, Bumblebee and Bulkhead stumbled across [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]], a ninja-bot meditating near an isolated space bridge. Due to an [[energon cube]] accident on [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]]'s part, Prowl's spaceship was destroyed, and he was forced to join their crew. {{storylink|Endgame, Part I}} After this, Bumblebee's work continued as usual until the crew discovered the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] itself on another asteroid, which unfortunately attracted the attention of [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]]. Even though he expressed significant fear of the [[Decepticon]] leader, he still managed to crack wise at his appearance once they were face-to-face. The humor vanished when Megs pulled out his sword. After Megatron was thrown off the ship, Bumblebee entered stasis with the rest of the crew just before the crew's ship crash-landed on [[Earth]].

Fifty years later, Teletran-1 awoke the crew to alert them to the intrusion of a nanite-powered bug-slug. Sending out a probe to find local disguises, the probe scanned [[Captain Fanzone]]'s [[Captain Fanzone's car|car]] amongst other things. Bumblebee was given the car for his new bodyform. Lucky him.

[[Image:TFA_TFandRollout_Sari_followedmehome.jpg|thumb|left|250px|"Can we keep it?"]]
Upon noticing [[Sari Sumdac|"a little creature"]] struggling with her [[Sparkplug (robot dog)|"owner"]], 'Bee and Mr. Bulk showed their unfamiliarity with organic life by assuming the owner/pet relationship was reversed. Their speculation was interrupted by the attacks of the giant, nanite-fueled bug monster, and Bumblebee intervened to get Sari out of the way. Later in the battle, Bumblebee was called on to deliver the override command to the beast's nanites, as he was the fastest and most nimble of the crew.

His defeat of the monster seriously impressed Sari, who decided to befriend him. Sari's definition of befriending included cajoling him into sneaking her aboard the Autobots' ship. Of course, Sari wouldn't stay still as Bumblebee asked, compelling him to jettison her into a ventilation shaft. After introducing her to the group, Sari and 'Bee became fast friends. When [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] attacked [[Detroit]], Bumblebee took a shot intended for Sari, allowing Screamer to capture Bumblebee, [[Isaac Sumdac]], [[Captain Fanzone]], and the Mayor. Sari, with [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]]'s help, managed to rescue them. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out!}}

The Autobots quickly became famous for their heroic deeds in Detroit, much to Bumblebee's delight. Prowl, on the other hand, was less enthusiastic about all the attention, however, and he and Bumblebee quickly had a clash of opinions on the values of peace and quiet versus the values of fun. When the Autobots' factory base was turned against them, however, Bumblebee was forced to listen to Prowl's "stillness and strike" attitude to get past the motion sensors preventing him from shutting the factory down. In the aftermath, he had a newfound respect for Prowl as the two played a relaxed game of Twister™. {{storylink|Home Is Where the Spark Is}}

At one point, Bumblebee took part in a match against [[Colossus Rhodes|Cyrus "Colossus" Rhodes]], hosted by [[Meltdown (Animated)|Prometheus Black]] to show off the effectiveness of biotechnology. Unfortunately, Cyrus [[wikipedia:Hulk_(comics)|hulked up]], then proceeded to beat the [[Slag (slang)|slag]] out of Bumblebee. The other Autobots were forced to rescue him, using it as a chance to riff on his small stature. However, only Bumblebee was able to get into [[Sumdac Tower]] when [[Meltdown (Animated)|Meltdown]] went to kill Isaac Sumdac. Bumblebee managed to get him to the ground floor, but Meltdown arrived. Bulkhead tried to stop him, but Meltdown threw a glob of acid at Bulkhead, which Bumblebee took instead (basically, 'Bee is a <s>human</s> robot shield). Bulkhead offered his apologies over his comments, saying he was only having a little fun—which sent Bumblebee into declaring his good moves and speed. He's going to be pretty impossible to live with for a while. {{storylink|Total Meltdown}}

The troubles in Detroit were far from over, as the Autobots soon found themselves facing three rampaging [[Dinobot (Animated)|robotic dinosaurs]]. During the battle, Bumblebee combined his stingers' electrical with Ratchet's magnets to create an [[electromagnetic pulse]] that would hopefully shut the prehistoric menaces down. Sari decided to pitch in by boosting Bumblebee's stingers with her [[Key]], which proved enough to defeat the "Dinobots"... but also provided them with [[Spark|sparks]]. {{storylink|Blast from the Past}} He later bought a neat car horn and tried to chase down a mysterious muscle car with little success. The car turned out to be the bounty hunter [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]], who kidnapped Optimus Prime and made short work of Bumblebee as well, threatening to take his stingers. In the end, Lockdown was defeated by Ratchet and Prime was saved. {{storylink|The Thrill of the Hunt}}

[[Image:TFA_Nanosec_Bumblebee_turbo_boosters.JPG|thumb|250px|BB got back!]]
After Bumblebee showed a lack of ability (or inclination) to be subtle on Earth, Prime had Prowl try to teach Bumblebee how to blend in. This ruined some plans with Sari, as she wanted to attach some turbo-boosters to him to make him go even faster. During the exercise, they encountered [[Nanosec]], a crook that had gained Professor Sumdac's new speed suit via [[Megatron (Animated)|unknown patrons]]. Unable to keep up with Nanosec, Bumblebee was convinced by Sari attach the turbo-boosters against Prime's orders. Unfortunately, he couldn't control them in vehicle mode, allowing Nanosec to escape from the Autobots twice. Worse, he was carrying enough [[Destronium]] to destroy all of Detroit. Overhearing Bulkhead and Prowl's comments on his change of appearance, Bumblebee realized that the suit was causing him to age the more he used it, so he purposefully ran him into old age (cold, Bee). With the Destronium about to go critical, Bumblebee, with help from Prowl and Bulkhead, managed to use his turbo-boosters to head into the outer atmosphere and get the Destronium away from the city before detonating. The whole experience seems have given Bumblebee a bit more respect for subtlety. {{storylink|Nanosec (episode)|Nanosec}}

October soon came around, and Sari decided to teach the Autobots about [[Halloween]]. Bumblebee dressed up as "Count Dracubot", but his trick-and-treating session went sour when he and Bulkhead were attacked by the spider-bot [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]] and knocked unconscious. They recovered in time to save Sari from falling off a skyscraper, although Bumblebee blew out his tires in the process. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider}} After participating in Sari's eighth birthday party, Bumblebee decided that he also wanted one of those cool [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]] toys. He was less enthusiastic after Soundwave took control of all [[automaton]]s in Detroit and faked Bumblebee's voice in order to confuse the Autobots. {{storylink|Sound and Fury}} While Soundwave was eventually defeated, the Decepticon attacks were far from over—[[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut]] soon arrived on Earth in their search for Megatron. Bumblebee and the others were knocked unconscious by Lugnut's [[Punch of Kill Everything|mighty punch]] in their first battle, but the odds were in the Autobots' favour when they later fought in the muddy waters of [[Lake Erie]]. Bumblebee got to electrocute Blitzwing a bit before both Decepticons were blasted to pieces by Teletran-1's main cannon. {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}}

When Sari was later kidnapped by a [[Swoop (Animated)|pterosaur]], Bumblebee participated in the police investigation. {{storylink|Survival of the Fittest}} Bulkhead later got into the fine arts, so Bumblebee helped out by modeling for him until his friend got his body hijacked by the human villain known as the [[Headmaster (Animated)|Headmaster]]. As the other Autobots investigated, Bumblebee kept Bulkhead's head company and helped him create art pieces for his upcoming gallery (all while relentlessly cracking jokes about the situation, naturally). The Headmaster soon threatened to destroy Detroit using Bulkhead's body, so the Autobots approached him by pretending to be rescue vehicles, with Bumblebee being driven by Captain Fanzone. During the battle against the Headmaster, he got to play both bowling and football with Bulkhead's head before it was returned to its body. {{storylink|Headmaster (episode)|Headmaster}}

Some time during that winter, Bumblebee and Sari were playing video games and listening to music while ignoring Prowl's lectures on how spending so much time on "electronic devices" was unnecessary. All three of them were then sent out to investigate a Cybertronic energy signal in the woods; a prospect which filled Bumblebee with dread as nature was just so ''incredibly'' boring compared to his TV, games and music back home. He came along on what Sari described as a "camping trip" anyway, although he brought plenty of electronic devices with him. Prowl was not impressed, and even less so when Bumblebee decided to use his holographic projector as a TV screen. The lack of electricity proved to be the least of Bumblebee's problems, however, as the group was attacked by a [[Space barnacles|space barnacle monster]] shortly after nightfall. After a drawn-out fight with the creature, Bumblebee eventually knocked it off a cliff with his stingers, only to find that Prowl had been infected by the barnacles himself. While Sari had the bright idea of trapping the crazed Prowl in a mine, Bumblebee ended up trapping both of ''them'' in it as well, and got himself infected. Ultimately, Sari saved the day by using hot water to remove the barnacles, and in the aftermath Bumblebee voiced his opinion that nature should just be paved over as soon as possible. {{storylink|Nature Calls}}

[[Image:Megatron_rising_1_Starscream_freakout.jpg|thumb|left|250px|"YOU INTERRUPTED MY SPEECH!"]]
When Decepticon activity was detected in high levels, Bulkhead spilled the beans on what he and Prowl had done with the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobots]], and Optimus Prime pretty much lost it. Ranting that all he had was a group of insubordinate malfunctions, he told Ratchet to take Sari's [[AllSpark]]-infused [[key]] from her, saying it wasn't safe in her hands. As she ran off crying, Bumblebee defended her, and Prime pointed out that Bumblebee wasn't a good character witness. Bumblebee mouthed off that their situation meant that Prime wasn't fit to command, and then went looking for Sari. Heading to [[Sumdac Tower]], Bumblebee spotted Starscream, and disobeyed Prime's order to hold off. Heading up the elevator (which could not only fit him, but also carry his weight), Bumblebee charged, firing his stingers at Starscream. All it really did was interrupt his speech, which made Starscream ''seriously'' freak out. However, a crane pulled Starscream, who was holding Bumblebee, up to the roof, where the two fought it out...right until Megatron burst through the roof of the tower. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 1}}

After Megatron's restoration, Starscream absentmindedly beat on Bumblebee for a while, then threw him aside when Megatron called the Decepticons to him. Once he'd been repaired with remaining key energy in Professor Sumdac's lab, Bumblebee called Prime on his previous statements, and Optimus apologized, saying he'd been out of line. When Ratchet brought the Autobots' ship to them, the Autobots and Sumdacs boarded the vessel in an attempt to lead Megatron and the Decepticons off-planet, but were shot down and crashed on [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]]. As the Autobots rallied to defend the AllSpark, Bumblebee, Ratchet, and Prowl took on [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]]. Ratchet and Bumblebee teamed up again to create an [[electromagnetic pulse]], causing him to crash. After shelling them in tank mode, Blitzwing again took to the air for some strafing runs. Prowl noticed a connection between Blitzwing's alternate modes and personalities, so they had Bumblebee use his greatest strength, his obnoxious personality, to cause Angry Blitzwing to emerge. Taunting the triple changer, Bumblebee got him to transform accidentally into tank mode and crash into the lake. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}}

[[Image:Super_secretary.jpg|thumb|250px|"[[Aaron Archer]]'s office. Please hold."]] Following the defeat of Megatron and the disappearance of Professor Sumdac, Bumblebee helped Sari run [[Sumdac Systems]] until the arrival of the [[Cybertron Elite Guard]]. Among their numbers was [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]], Bumblebee and Bulkhead's old sergeant from boot camp, but thankfully he didn't seem to remember them. 'Bee and the rest of the crew were subsequently contained within the [[Elite Guard flagship]] while the Sentinel and [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] went with Optimus Prime to investigate the supposed defeat of Megatron and dispersion of the AllSpark, but soon had to leave to deal with an out-of-control [[police drone]] factory. {{storylink|The Elite Guard}} Shortly afterwards, Bumblebee greeted Sari when she was thrown out of Sumdac Tower by [[Porter C. Powell]] and forced to live with the Autobots. He and Bulkhead tried to cheer her up by saying that living together would be like a non-stop party, making her food and teaching her about "stuff and how it works", but were met with limited success. {{storylink|The Return of the Headmaster}}

Bumblebee and Sari later helped stop a runaway train powered by an AllSpark fragment. When Starscream stopped by again, 'Bee and Ratchet again combined their powers to attack him with an electromagnetic pulse, but the AllSpark-powered Decepticon shrugged it off like it was nothing. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished}} After noticing truly how bad Ratchet's people skills were, Optimus Prime assigned Bumblebee and Sari to help him improve on them, something neither party was very enthusiastic about. During their training, the three encountered the newly created Transformer [[Wreck-Gar (Animated)|Wreck-Gar]], who proceeded to throw beef and motorcycles at Bumblebee. The Autobots chased Wreck-Gar across the city to retrieve the experimental nanobots he had in his backpack, but Bumblebee was not present during Ratchet's final confrontation with the confused 'bot. {{storylink|Garbage In, Garbage Out}}

[[Image:TFA_Velocity_Bumblebee_Blurr_meet.JPG|thumb|left|250px|"If you're [[Auggie Cahnay]], your ass is grass!"]]
Bumblebee became involved in the illegal street races organised by the criminal [[Master Disaster]]. Believing himself to be the fastest things on wheels, Bumblebee was unsurprisingly shocked after getting thrashed in a race by a [[Blurr (Animated)| Mysterious Blue Race Car]]. Following this, AllSpark traces, and the appearance of Blitzwing at the race track, Bumblebee became determined to get to the bottom of the mystery (although deep down he just wanted another chance to beat the Unknown Racer.) He made a deal with Master Disaster to appear in his races. Enlisting the help of Sari, Bumblebee returned to the track, and, to cut a long story short, ending up being pursued by the maniacal Blitzwing. After nearly being frozen one minute and melted to slag the next, Bumblebee was eventually rescued by the Mysterious Racer driving into Blitzwing. The excitement wasn't over for Bumblebee yet, as when returning to Master Disaster's trailer for answers, he and his pal Bulkhead (who had angrily followed Bumblebee there for defying him) had to face off against Blitzwing (he was desperate for that AllSpark fragment...), and had to be rescued once again... although this time it was Sari using Master Disaster's controlling device. {{storylink|Velocity}}

Later, he went on a trip to the Five Banners Roller Coaster Kingdom theme park with Sari. Optimus, fool that he is, believed him when he called it "an important fact-finding mission". {{storylink|A Fistful of Energon}}

[[Image:Watching_SUVs.jpg|thumb|250px|If they start to do it, let me see, ok?]]
On another occasion, Bumblebee was attempting to clear up the streets of Detroit by catching some of their [[Nanosec|small]] [[Angry Archer|time]] [[Professor Princess|criminals]]. However, in each case, whenever Bumblebee came close to the capture, he froze up completely, and allowed the baddies to escape. It later became apparent that this was due to the AllSpark-infused timepiece belonging to [[Slo-Mo]]. After revealing himself and snatching the timepiece, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] froze all of the Autobots and looked set for victory. However, after being lifted to Sumdac Tower by Sari and the members of the [[Society of Ultimate Villainy|SUV]] and repaired, Bumblebee took on Swindle (even managing to floor him at one point with his stingers.) After getting the timepiece back from Swindle, Bumblebee was double-crossed by the SUV, but fortunately for the Autobot, the rest of his pals were back online by now, and managed to get the criminals arrested. {{storylink|SUV: Society of Ultimate Villainy}}

After learning of Wasp's escape, Bumblebee felt a stirring of his old dreams, and dragged Bulkhead off to trace a signal leaked to them, containing a conversation between Megatron and his spy. As they tracked it down, Bumblebee fell into old habits, and started putting Bulkhead down, just like in the old days. It took a nasty fall to remind him that Bulkhead was the best friend he'd ever have, and he didn't need to spend his time chasing big dreams. Together, the two headed home, never realizing they were just outside of the carbon mines where the Decepticons were hiding.

Later, Bumblebee relayed the information they'd gathered to his old friend, Longarm, now Longarm ''Prime'', head of Cybertron Intel. {{storylink|Autoboot Camp}}

[[Image:TFA_Black_Friday_Meltdown_Bee.jpg|thumb|left|250px|IDK, my BFF Jill?]]
Due to his inability to stay quiet, Prowl placed a bet on Bumblebee—that he couldn't go 10 [[Cycle|cycles]] without talking. Should he keep to this, a sweet can of axle grease would be his! However, the poor bot just couldn't do it. Prime took 'Bee and Prowl with him to Dinobot Island to investigate Meltdown's prison break, and the plucky yellow bot vowed he would win the axle grease. However, the bet was put on hold after both he and Prowl were off-lined by [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia's]] cyber-venom. After the day was saved, Prime used the antidote on the bots, and 'Bee pointed out he'd been quiet for ages! Prowl dryly noted it took 'Bee being comatose to achieve this, but the yellow bot didn't care—he just wanted his grease! {{storylink|Black Friday (episode)| Black Friday}}

After insulting Bulkhead's latest painting of Sari, Bumblebee realized that he was wrong and actually apologized for his comments. It didn't go over very well, and that was before Megatron showed up with Professor Sumdac. Though Bumblebee suspected that Sumdac was a willing accomplice, Sari refused to hear it. At that moment, the mysterious blue racer appeared. Thinking he was a Decepticon, Bumblebee rolled after the racer, running him off the road. It was only at this point that the racer revealed that he was [[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]], a member of the Elite Guard sent to keep tabs on Decepticons and Prime's crew. Worse, Bumblebee's actions allowed Bulkhead to be kidnapped by Megatron. Once Optimus Prime was informed that the Decepticons were building a [[space bridge]] to attack Cybertron, 'Bee went with the Autobots to rescue Bulkhead and destroy the bridge. During a brief skirmish with Lugnut and Blitzwing, Bumblebee admitted that he'd lost his title as "fastest thing on wheels" to Blurr. Unfortunately, when they confronted Megatron himself, the [[Constructicon (Animated)|Constructicons]] managed to incapacitate the pair...just in time for Starscream and his [[Starscream clone|clones]] to attack. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}

Managing to escape the Decepticons, the Autobots went for the clones, apparently deciding that they were the greater evil. The battle went poorly for them, as Blurr was lost in the space bridge and Bumblebee was cemented to a wall. When Isaac Sumdac decapitated Starscream and took his body with the [[Headmaster (Animated)|Headmaster unit]], Bumblebee was convinced that he was working for the Decepticons, though Sumdac revealed that it was to destroy Megatron. That didn't work out too well. After Megatron explained his plan to the captive Autobots, the Decepticon [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] revealed that he was Longarm Prime and that Bumblebee had sent an innocent Wasp to the stockade. Fortunately, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] arrived, reactivated thanks to Sari and Ratchet, and sacrificed himself to save the Autobots and Sumdacs. With the threat passed, Sumdac revealed that he had been forced to help the Decepticons, and Bumblebee's mistrust of the professor presumably faded away—only to return when Sari saw that the skin of her right arm had torn...revealing robotic circuitry underneath! {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}

Despite the revelation that one of his best friends was a robot, Bumblebee actually remained focused on the larger picture: namely, Shockwave's presence on Cybertron. Optimus reasoned that since Bulkhead was a genius with regards to space bridges (something Bumblebee said he'd never get used to, revealing his high opinion of his other best friend), so the two headed out to the mine. Bumblebee managed to find a recall beacon generator, which was needed to locate the position in space, and the plasmadynamic thruster, which generated the transwarp field. Unfortunately, the thruster activated before Bumblebee could give it to Bulkhead, sending him across the galaxy. After catching another transwarp wave, he was again transported to another part of the galaxy—where he was swallowed by a [[rock creature|rock alien]].

Fortunately, Bulkhead was able to capture Bumblebee's signal, and reel him in. Sadly, it also brought the alien to Detroit. As the Autobots struggled to figure out how to defeat the monster and save Bumblebee, Sari used the Key on herself to upgrade with new weapons and a teenage appearance. Sari quickly trounced the monster, freeing Bumblebee. Unfortunately, Sari didn't remove the key after the upgrade, causing her to overload and lose control of her abilities. Bumblebee made a mad dash to try to remove the key, but Sari's defenses systems registered him as a threat, and Sari horrifically watched as she stabbed Bumblebee through the chest and blasted him across the street. Ratchet immediately went to work, saying that he could repair Bumblebee without the Key. However, the damage was severe, and Bumblebee's spark was fading fast. Even when they got the Key, Ratchet was still hard pressed, as the Key had been burned out upgrading Sari. Fortunately, Ratchet managed to stabilize Bumblebee with his magnets, but Ratchet was forced to deactivate Sari with his EMP generator.

After Ratchet made what repairs he could, the Autobots allowed Professor Sumdac some time alone with Sari. Lamenting on how troubled their day had been, Bumblebee tempted fate by asking how much worse it could get. On cue, the plasmadynamic thruster began to power up, but Bulkhead manged to shut it down. Unfortunately, Omega Supreme soon arrived, under the control of Megatron. Bumblebee was given an illegal stinger upgrade to help against Omega Supreme, but it still did little good. Optimus and Prowl managed to sneak inside and remove Megatron's control while Bumblebee and Bulkhead served as <s>bait</s> a distraction. However, Starscream managed to gain control, and soon moved to conquer Cybertron. Bumblebee came up with the idea to throw the plasmadynamic thruster inside Omega to send the three randomly warping across the galaxy, managing to reach the altitude with his turbo boosters (why Optimus let him keep those is unknown). Later, Sari was awakened, and all was well with the Autobots...except for being out of contact with Cybertron, but still, it's the thought that counts. {{storylink|TransWarped}}

While Bulkhead and Professor Sumdac began constructing a space bridge, Bumblebee and the other Autobots focused on hunting down the remaining Decepticons on Earth. The first one they found was Lugnut, who was defeated and [[stasis cuffs|stasis cuffed]] after a drawn-out battle. Unfortunately, this left the Autobot force trying to pull the massive Decepticon out of the deep crater he had caused during the fight—a daunting task that they spent the rest of the night working on. Before any real progress could be made, Bumblebee and the others were called away to help Bulkhead, who had been dragged into an oil-stealing scheme by the Constructicons. Upon arriving at the [[Fossil Fuel]] oil refinery, Bumblebee fought against Scrapper, but was warned to watch his stingers so he wouldn't set fire to a nearby oil spill. Unfortunately, a collision between Scrapper and Mixmaster led to a spark setting fire to it anyway, so the Autobots were forced to transwarp an entire oil tank (with the Constructicons on it) out to Lake Erie, where it exploded. {{storylink|Three's a Crowd}}

Some time later, Bumblebee's old friend Wasp arrived on Earth, with a few screws loose and a vendetta against the 'bot who put him away. That night, Bumblebee was on monitor duty as the other Autobots were searching for Wasp, but spent his time playing ''[[Ninja Gladiator]]'' instead (after all, a TV is a monitor too!), which led to Wasp easily getting the drop on him. Bumblebee tried explaining how Longarm had set the whole thing up back in the day, but the deranged Wasp wouldn't listen, instead knocking Bumblebee out and saying it was ''his'' turn to lose everything he'd ever had. When Bumblebee woke up, he found himself equipped with Wasp's helmet, paintjob and voice synthesizer and all his friends staring down at him... including Wasp dressed up as himself. Unable to prove his own identity, Bumblebee was forced to escape from his own friends, only to be chased down by Elite Guard members [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]]. Luckily for the small 'bot, Jetstorm's wind blasts were too powerful for him, and he was blown away from danger. A desperate Bumblebee tried painting himself yellow with mustard from a hot dog stand, only to be confronted by Bulkhead and Prowl. Thinking of ideas to prove his innocence, Bumblebee reminded Bulkhead of their misadventures in boot camp—misadventures Wasp could never have known about. While his friends were finally convinced, the newly arrived Jetstorm and Jetfire were not, and a fight broke out until Optimus and Sentinel arrived and sorted it out. Returning to the Autobot base, they confronted Wasp, who had unfortunately spent the meantime researching Bumblebee's past and could easily list many of 'Bee's past adventures like he was there in person. With no way to prove who was the real deal, Bulkhead suggested that they simply play ''Ninja Gladiator'' for the title of Bumblebee... after all, the real one would ''never'' lose at ''Ninja Gladiator''. The plan worked, as Wasp cracked under the pressure before the match could even begin, grabbing Bumblebee and holding him at stinger-point. With the Autobots unable to attack, Wasp cancelled his and Bumblebee's [[electronic paint job]]s and made a getaway, leaving Bumblebee to be pummelled by a confused Bulkhead. {{storylink|Where Is Thy Sting?}}

Chasing Wasp across Detroit, the Autobots eventually cornered him, and Bumblebee again tried explaining the "funny story" on how Longarm was the true Decepticon spy who caused Wasp's misfortune. However, Wasp didn't see the funny part of it, and Bumblebee nearly got himself blasted in the face for trying. Before the group could capture Wasp, he was suddenly abducted by [[Swoop (Animated)|Swoop]], so Optimus Prime and Bumblebee had to follow him to [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]]. Upon arrival, Prime suggested that Bumblebee stopped making excuses like blaming Longarm and tried ''apologizing'' to Wasp instead. Making their way into the tunnels of the island, the two soon found Wasp... mutated into a large, monstrous [[technorganic]] form by Blackarachnia. Face to face with the monster, Bumblebee followed Prime's advice and apologized for everything he did and didn't do to Wasp. His old nemesis responded that Wasp forgave him... but he was Wasp''inator'' now, and Waspinator would ''never'' forgive Bumblebee! However, before Waspinator could destroy Bumblebee once and for all, his new body started going out of control, and he went back to Blackarachnia. After being run down by both the spider and the wasp as the latter chased the former, Bumblebee helped carry the damaged Sentinel Prime out of the tunnels. {{storylink|Predacons Rising}}

Christmas eventually came around, and between shaking his presents and decorating the tree, Bumblebee didn't notice a [[Sound Wave]] toy poisoning the Autobots' [[oilnog]]. After having a taste, the 'bots all felt strangely tired and decided to take a stasis nap... only to wake up in human bodies. Bumblebee took it with a pinch of humour as he made fun of Bulkhead for being small, before the "Automen" headed out to see if Professor Sumdac could find out what was going on. However, during a brief break for food at [[Burger Bot]], the city came under attack from a large force of Decepticons. The Autobots chose to fight back despite their small fleshy bodies, but Bumblebee grabbing onto Starscream's leg had no real effect on the marauding Decepticon, and the heroes were quickly forced to run. Eventually arriving at Sumdac Tower, Bumblebee was shocked when Cybertron itself appeared in the sky and blasted part of the tower to smithereens, followed by the arrival of Megatron himself. However, by this stage, Optimus Prime and Prowl had figured out that none of this was actually happening—they were trapped in some kind of simulated reality. Realizing that they could break through the illusion with their imagination, the Autobots fought back and defeated the simulated Decepticons, with the tiny human Bumblebee easily punching out Blitzwing before transforming back into a robot. But before the Autobots could figure out how to escape from the virtual reality, they were subdued by a giant Soundwave—the one who had trapped them to begin with in order to brainwash them into becoming his mind slaves. {{storylink|Human Error, Part I}}

As Soundwave increased his control over the simulation, Bumblebee and the others were transformed back into humans. Deciding that they had to find Soundwave's interface to the world, they grabbed some vehicles matching their alternate modes, leading to Bumblebee pushing a virtual Captain Fanzone out of his own car. The Autobots took to chasing after a black Soundwave van, only to fall into a trap that let Soundwave brainwash them completely. As Sari and her "[[Substitute Autobot]]s" came to save the day, Soundwave used the Autobots' bodies to fight back, with Bumblebee and Prowl teaming up against Wreck-Gar. However, controlling five people at once proved too much for Soundwave, and as he lost focus, Bumblebee's mindless body found itself bound up in Christmas lights and defeated. Shortly afterward, Bumblebee's mind was returned to normal when Optimus Prime shattered Soundwave's body. {{storylink|Human Error, Part II}}

When the Autobots discovered Decepticon signals on the [[Moon (moon)|moon]], Bumblebee found himself an volunteering (read: ordered) to transwarp there and plant a transmitter. However, the transmitter was inadvertedly broken by [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] shortly after arrival, so Bumblebee changed his strategy into infiltrating Omega Supreme. Inside, he found [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]] babbling on and on about school. Deeming it impossible to take her back to Earth, 'Bee chose to activate Arcee's transmitter before leaving, using her to spy on the Decepticons. {{storylink|Endgame, Part I}} When Megatron used the information inside Arcee to attack Detroit with a trio of "[[Lugnut Supreme]]s", Bumblebee went back to the moon alongside Bulkhead, Ratchet and Sari to attempt a retrieval of Omega Supreme. They quickly located Arcee again, only to be attacked by Shockwave. While Bumblebee's stingers had no effect on his old platoonmate, he was eventually defeated by Bulkhead's brawns. Shockwave transformed back to his Longarm mode in an attempt to trick his "old pals", but failed and was captured. Bumblebee was aboard Omega Supreme when he battled against the oversized Lugnuts-turned-oversized Starscreams, and following their victory, was told that Prowl had died during the battle. When the Autobots returned to Cybertron, he helped carry his friend's coffin. {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}

===Toy bios===
At some point, Bumblebee began taking stealth lessons from Prowl, presenting him with a new battle tactic: sneaking up from behind instead of racing fender-first into danger. To further that end, Bumblebee apparently painted himself as a police patrol car. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Animated)#ActivPatrol|Patrol Bumblebee}}

After "getting up close to members of the AUTOBOT Elite Guard", Bumblebee decided more than ever that he wanted to join their ranks. He had Sari borrow some of her dad's auto-painting robots so that he could truly look the part of an Elite Guard team member. He also began doing combat training with Prowl, and may have gotten his energy stingers enhanced. {{storylink|Bumblebee (Animated)#EliteGuard|Elite Guard Bumblebee}}

{{note|Presumably Bumblebee's "getting up close to members of the AUTOBOT Elite Guard" refers to the events of the episodes [[The Elite Guard]], [[The Return of the Headmaster]] and [[Mission Accomplished]]. However, at the time of those episodes, Isaac Sumdac was missing and Sari no longer had access to Sumdac Systems technology, so, uh... just go with it.}}

===Titan Magazines===
In battle with new villain [[Quake-Maker]], Bumblebee got to not only mock the villain but fight alongside the super-cool new Autobot [[Afterburn]]. {{storylink|Burnout}}

The two later went on a mission to Dinobot Island to stop a Rage virus infection, a mission that had Bumblebee nervous. During the mission, Bumblebee screwed up a landing that Afterburn aced, got thrown into a mud puddle by Swoop, was left with an incredibly dirty finish, and generally looked worse than Afterburn and on ''four separate occasions'' got put down by him. This made him sad. {{storylink|Ratchet & Grimlock Are DEAD?}}

When [[Swoop (Animated)|Swoop]] was in a huff, it was Bumblebee who convinced him to help them against the [[Wraith-X]] by appealing to that greatest of emotions, the ego! He didn't have time to gloat though, as he then found Afterburn reporting back to ''Megatron'', who then stormed the base, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Divebomb}} killed Afterburn, and started a massive battle. Bumblebee was shocked to find Afterburn had only been a sparkless drone infiltrator, but still viewed him as a real Autobot, ''taking on Megatron himself'' out of anger for what had happened.

Optimus later consoled Bumblebee that he'd been a hero and that Afterburn hadn't been real anyway. But he'd been real to Bumblebee...{{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Megatron's Revenge}}

[[Image:Bumblebeepizza_Titan25.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Why said cheese pizza has several toppings on it is a mystery.]]

But then he got over that and started breaking traffic laws for fun to get pizzas to Sari quickly! This led to Prowl dissing him and claiming Bumblebee wouldn't be so fast if he had to obey some rules, which led to a race between the two at [[Crazy Coyote Canyon]] (plus Bulkhead joined in, which gave Bumblebee a good laugh). Autobots doing ''anything'', of course, leads to Decepticon plots, and Bumblebee (who had a Decepticon tracer stuck on his butt) found they'd ambushed Prowl halfway through the race. Locating the tracer, he stuck it on ''Lugnut's'' butt and helped Prowl escape to win.

All that excitement had allowed Bulkhead to win the race unopposed though, making him the official fastest thing in Detroit. Bumblebee accepted it amiably enough. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|The Race}}

==Toys==
===Animated===
====Activators====
*'''Bumblebee''' (Activator, 2008)
[[Image:Activators_Bumblebee_toy.jpg|thumb|250px|He's a Bumblevator - or is it Actibee?]]
: Part of the first wave of [[Activators]], this small version of Bumblebee [[Autotransform|automatically transforms]] from vehicle to robot mode via spring-loaded releases when you press his top-mounted police light. Interestingly enough, this toy is probably the closest to "proper" scale in robot mode when compared to the Deluxe Prowl and Ratchet, the Voyager Optimus, and Leader Bulkhead. Like the Deluxe class toy, Bumblebee was intended to be molded with a benign sideways smile on his face, but at this small of scale the effect does not come off as intended, leaving Bumblebee looking rather more like he's grimacing. Furthermore, his insignia is ''also'' grimacing; for some reason this toy was given the [[Insignia#2007_movie|movie Autobot "angry eyes" insignia]], rather than the standard "neutral expression" insignia found on most other ''Animated'' Autobots. Add him to the list of Transformers who just need a hug.

:This mold was later [[Retool|retooled]] to make [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/ActBumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Bumblebee at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
{{anchor|ActivPatrol}}
[[Image:Activators_PatrolBumblebee_toy.JPG|thumb|200px|Bumblecade]]
*'''Patrol Bumblebee''' (Activator, 2008)

: A police-themed redeco of Activators Bumblebee, instead of his current "undercover" markings, he gets full-on black-and-white deco with "POLICE" lettering across his doors.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/PatrolBumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Patrol Bumblebee at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
====Deluxe====
[[Image:Bumblebee_anim_toy.jpg|thumb|300px|Awwww, it's so adorable...]]
*'''Bumblebee''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Left & right rocket boosters

: Bumblebee transforms from a small yellow hatchback with a single red flasher to a scrappy robot with a smile on his face. He has a fake car roof on his chest (but to be fair, so does his cartoon counterpart.) in robot mode, and the two halves of his stinger weapon, stored in his forearms, can be flipped out and pegged together. In both robot and car mode, his two booster rockets can be attached on his back.

: Due to support struts added inside his forearms to ensure durability, his stingers do not recede all the way back into his arms. The latest releases of the toy fix this problem. There have also been some complaints that the socket in his left arm tends to crack easily, which makes the arm impossible to pose.

: Amusingly, flipping his bumper up in his alt-mode works like a tiny trunk.

: This mold was also used to make [[#EliteGuard|"Elite Guard" Bumblebee]] and will be used to make [[Wasp|Fugitive Waspinator]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Bumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Deluxe Bumblebee at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
{{anchor|EliteGuard}}
[[Image:Ani-toy BumblebeeEG.jpg|thumb|300px|Back from his internship with Donald Trump. Sentinel Prime, YOU'RE FIRED!]]
*'''Elite Guard Bumblebee''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Left & right rocket boosters

: A [[redeco]] of [[#Deluxe|Deluxe Bumblebee]], this figure represents Bumblebee after getting Sari to help paint him up in [[Cybertron Elite Guard|Elite Guard]] deco as part of his anticipated ascension into their ranks. Dare to dream! He retains all the play-gimmicks of the original, though his arms have been slightly [[retool]]ed to allow the stingers to recede fully. The color scheme of the toy bears a little resemblance to [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys#Deluxe Class toys|Stealth Bumblebee]] from the [[Movie (franchise)|live-action movie]] franchise.

: The [[Hasbro]] stock photography and [[package art]] for this toy [[:Image:Deluxeeliteguardbumblebee.jpg|depict "Elite Guard" Bumblebee with his normal yellow helmet]]. However, the actual toy has a black helmet due to the plastic color layouts.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/EGBumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Elite Guard Bumblebee at TFU.info]''

====Voyager====
[[Image:Ani-toy_HydrodiveBumblebee.jpg|thumb|250px|Oh slag. Where did my police light go?]]
*'''Hydrodrive Bumblebee''' (Voyager, 2009)
:A new sculpted and downscaled figure of Bumblebee in much the same style as [[Prowl (Animated)#Toys|Samurai Prowl]]. He comes with a jet/submarine that can be configured into some sort of battle armour/jet-pack. He can be placed in it in both robot and alt mode. Rather atypically for an ''Animated'' Autobot, he appears to come with a pair of guns (in lieu of his usual [[stinger]]s). These pistols can be hand-held or mounted on his armour.
{{comingsoontoy}}

====Other====
*'''Bumper Battlers Bumblebee''' (Bumper Battlers, 2008)
[[Image:BumperBattlers_Bumblebee_toy.jpg|thumb|200px|Does this make him [[Bumper (G1)|Animated Bumper]]?]]
: Part of the first wave of [[Bumper Battlers]], this very simple version of Bumblebee is meant for the much younger set. About the same size as the Deluxe Bumblebee in car mode, pressing the Autobot [[faction symbol]] on his hood activates the toy's sound feature, using a seemingly randomized assortment of sound effects and original voice samples from [[Bumper Robinson]]. Pressing the car mode's front bumper in activates the simple spring-loaded one-step transformation to robot mode... "properly" activated by using the toy's [[pull-back motor]] [[gimmick]] to propel it forward into an obstacle.

{{-}}
{{anchor|McD}}
*'''Bumblebee''' (McDonalds Happy Meal toy, 2008)
[[Image:Bumblebrick.png|thumb|180px|Bumblebrick.]]
: A simple version of Bumblebee with a very simple transformation sequence, one of six toys available as part of the McDonald's ''Transformers Animated'' promotion (held concurrently with the ''Littlest Pet Shop'' promo). You transform him by pulling out the arms from the sides, pulling down the legs and rotating them around and flipping up the head. The arms hold the legs in place, and need to be pulled out before his legs. His vehicle mode is accurate to the show, and his robot mode is reasonably accurate, although rather on the "bulky" side.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/McBumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Bumblebee at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
{{anchor|StingRacer}}
*'''Sting Racer Bumblebee''' (Bumper Battlers, 2008)
[[Image:Ani-toy_BumperBattlers_StingBumblebee.JPG|thumb|200px|]]
: This Bumper Battlers Bumblebee has a blue stripe in place of the black one, and blue electrical marks on his sides.

{{-}}
[[Image:Ani-toy_LegendsBumblebee.jpg|thumb|200px|]]
*'''Stealth Lockdown''' (Animated 3-pack, 2008)

: A ''Universe'' [[Legends of Cybertron|Legends-class]] Bumblebee came packaged with this Target-[[exclusive]] clear version of [[Lockdown (Animated)#Stealth|Lockdown]], as well as a Legends [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]. This Bumblebee is ''almost'' identical to the individual ''Universe'' release, except this version has a silver [[faction symbol]] rather than the ''Universe'' release's red.

{{-}}
{{anchor|PowerBots}}
*'''Cyber Speed Bumblebee''' ([[Power Bots]], 2008)
[[Image:CyberSpeedBumblebee_toy.JPG|thumb|120px|]]
: A large, non-transforming figure of Bumblebee in bulky, child-friendly form. He comes with lights and sounds, including a stinger sound on the right arm, which has the stinger deployed, and a "punching" sound and extending fist on the left. He also speaks a slew of phrases, including "Bring it on, Decepticons!" and "Hi, I'm Bumblebee!", again using Bumper Robinson voice clips. He is, of course, utterly adorable.

{{-}}
*'''Street Patrol Bumblebee''' (Power Bots, 2009)
[[Image:Ani-toy_StreetPatrolBumblebee.JPG|thumb|120px|]]
: This Bumblebee has red stripes on his stinger arm and his stripe is dark blue.

{{-}}
*'''Shockwave VS Bumblebee''' (multipack, 2009)
[[Image:Shockwavepurplebumblebeetoys.jpg|thumb|200px|Hey, they said I was supposed to meet Longarm here. Who are you?]]
: Activators Bumblebee packaged with a purple redeco of Voyager [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] in a Target-exclusive multipack.

{{-}}

===Transformers (2007 movie line)===
*'''Legacy of Bumblebee''' (Deluxe class multi-pack, 2008)

: A Walmart [[exclusive]] three pack, the ''Legacy of Bumblebee'' collector's set comes with [[Bumblebee (G1)|''Classics'']], [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Movie]] Deluxe Class Concept Camaro ([[Premium Series]]) and ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' Bumblebee figures. While the movie and ''Animated'' Bumblebees are identical to their original, single carded releases, the ''Classics'' Bumblebee has been redecoed to more closely resemble his movie and ''Animated'' counterparts, changing his white stripes to black, and his grey/silver plastic to yellow, similarly to ''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bumble.

===Universe (2008)===
*'''Bumblebee''' (Legends, 2008)
[[Image:Legends_bb_sized.jpg|thumb|125px|Is that size-accurate enough?]]
: A smaller, simplified [[Legends of Cybertron|Legends]]-scale Bumblebee toy, released under the ''Universe'' toyline.

: A slightly different version of this toy can also be found as part of the ''Animated'' [[Lockdown (Animated)|Stealth Lockdown]] three-pack with Legends [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]], and as part of a ''Universe'' three-pack with Legends Optimus Prime and Legends [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/AniLegendsBumblebee/bumblebee.htm More information on Bumblebee at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:Bumblebeeanimatedkibble.jpg|thumb|150px|My real windshield is on my heels!]]
* Bumblebee's arm-mounted shock stingers are very likely inspired by an early weapon concept from the 2007 movie [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]].

* The character who would become Bumblebee was originally conceived as [[Hot Shot (Armada)|Hot Shot]], but changed to Bumblebee at the insistence of incoming supervising director [[Matt Youngberg]] and art director [[Derrick J. Wyatt]]<ref>[https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21975298&postID=1516366009698858110&isPopup=true]</ref>. This explains why his character is more like Hot Shot and less like... well, Bumblebee. He also arguably shares personality traits with other, similarly brash "ADHD" characters such as [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] and [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]. Cut from the same cloth, at any rate.

* Bumblebee appears to have a fake car roof on his chest in both his toy and on his [[character model]]. Not only does Bumblebee transform like his toy in his drawn-out animated transformation sequences, with his legs forming the top of the vehicle and the rest forming the underside, but his "real" windshield is drawn on the back of his legs, just like the toy. Plus the headlights on Bumblebee's feet are upside-down, just like the toy's. However, Bumblebee's vehicle mode stripe doesn't change sides like on the toy. Cheatsy!

* In addition to the above, in "[[The Thrill of the Hunt]]," Bumblebee reaches under his '''fake''' car roof kibble to get out his air freshener and fuzzy dice. This would mean that he had kept them in his back seat or trunk. Interestingly enough, on the Deluxe toy, you can actually store small items in his chest thanks to his opening 'trunk'.

* He likes to swear a lot. [[Slag (slang)|Slag yeah!]]

[[Image:TFA_Bumblebee_Elite_Guard_promoimage.JPG|thumb|150px|[[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] was so horrified his scream blew out [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]]'s audio sensors...and Jazz was in another building at the time.]]
* He apparently got his name for being a bumbler in [[Autobot boot camp]]. {{storylink|Autoboot Camp}}

* On the Transformers Animated Season One DVD set, the "Season Two Sneak Peek" special feature shows Bumblebee's character model colored in the Elite Guard Bumblebee toy's deco. Bumblebee did not actually ''use'' that color scheme in Season 2, so its inclusion in a Season Two gallery is puzzling at best...

* With the airing of the episodes "Human Error" Parts 1 and 2, an interesting and probably unintentional question has been brought up. Bumblebee's human form is obviously much younger than the others, even Prowl and Bulkhead, putting him somewhere around pre-teen to early teen years. Everything else about the humans reflect their bot conterparts spot on, down to a scar on Ratchet's face to represent his broken chevron. So, seeing as human Bee is obviously so young, does that make him a child soldier?

* Bumblebee's original [[body-type]] is apparently quite common on Cybertron—he shares it with [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]], [[Wasp]], [[Tap-Out (Animated)|Tap-Out]], [[Freeway (Animated)|Freeway]], [[Searchlight (Animated)|Searchlight]], [[Hubcap (Animated)|Hubcap]], [[Sedan (Animated)|Sedan]], [[Carerra (Animated)|Carerra]], [[Furao]], [[Bumper (Animated)|Bumper]] and [[Glyph (Animated)|Glyph]].

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
* [http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/Bumblebee/bumblebee.htm Bumblebee at TFU.info]
* [http://www.hasbro.com/common/images/news/transformers//Transformers_Draw_Bumblebee.pdf Hasbro.com - How to Draw: Animated Bumblebee]

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Autobots]]

Omega Supreme (Animated)

2009-08-04T15:24:36Z

Fleb: /* Animated cartoon */ link

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Omega Supreme}}
:''Omega Supreme is an Autobot in the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[Continuity family]].''

[[Image:ABridgeTooCloseII-OmegaSupremeRobotMode.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Deus ex machina? I wouldn't want to be presumptuous]]

The last line of defense for the [[Autobot]]s, '''Omega Supreme''' was literally built for heroic sacrifice. Grimly aware of the heavy combat toll his friends must have suffered for him to even be activated in the first place, Omega does not hesitate to unleash his colossal firepower and risk his own life and safety on their behalf.

In fact, he ''did'' perish during the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], after which the Autobots used [[Teletran-1|his dead body as a spaceship]] to ferry a maintenance crew around. But he got better.

{{bigquote|I am programmed to protect, and sacrifice if necessary.|Omega Supreme|"[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actors:'' [[Kevin Michael Richardson]] (season two, English), [[Phil LaMarr]] (season three, English), [[Gerald Paradies]] (German)

[[Image:TransWarpedOmegaBirth.jpg|thumb|200px|left|I am...[[Iron Man|IRONMAN]]!]]

Omega Supreme was the end product of "Project Omega", an Autobot attempt to create a weapon of mass destruction that would serve as their last, best hope of defeating the Decepticons and ending the Great War. Built with a simple processor so that he would be able to perform his duties as a death-bringer without ethical or emotional qualms, Omega was to be partnered with a mentor that would guide him in his actions. This mentor was intended to Autobot intelligence officer [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]], who was carrying in her processor the codes to bring Omega online, but when an encounter with [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] and [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] wiped her memory core, a failsafe program transferred the codes to Ratchet, and the medic was left with no choice but to become Omega's teacher. Omega was brought online and introduced himself to Ratchet as his to command; his pupil, dependant and servant. Ratchet merely introduced himself as Omega's friend.

[[Image:TransWarpedDefeatedOmega.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Help, I've fallen, and I can't get up!]]

Omega Supreme successfully carried out his mission, bringing an end to the Decepticon threat in a mighty battle that left him fatally wounded. At Ratchet's instruction, Omega transformed into spaceship mode, and Ratchet placed his friend into a modified form of stasis until he could eventually be repaired. {{storylink|TransWarped}} For reasons unknown (possibly the simple lack of need the Autobots had for his power, now that the war was won), Omega was never brought back online, and his body became a simple ship in the Autobot [[space bridge]] repair fleet known as [[Teletran-1]]. Ratchet stayed by his friend's side, serving as a member of the crew that came to populate Omega's inactivate body. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}

[[Image:Teletran-1Animated.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Why wear a Che Guevara t-shirt when you can ride around in his taxidermized corpse?]]

The ship's crew, operating in a remote sector of Autobot-controlled space, stumbled upon the lost, legendary [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] and was almost immediately attacked by the Decepticon [[Nemesis (Animated)| flagship]]. Massively outgunned, the Autobots survived only by escaping through a space bridge portal, whereupon their ship crashed on [[Earth]]. Decades after the crash, the Autobots were reactivated, and their battle with the Decepticons revived with them. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

[[Image:Ark_in_mountain.jpg|180px|thumb|right|Not a proper burial, per se.]]

{{Note|For detailed information about the ship and its activities on Earth, see [[Teletran-1]]}}

When [[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]] alerted [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]'s crew to the fact that [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] was on the verge of constructing a working space bridge to Cybertron, Optimus ordered Ratchet and [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]] to attempt to revive Omega Supreme. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}

Through "open-[[spark]] surgery", using four AllSpark fragments and making heavy use of the [[Key]], Ratchet finally managed to revive his old friend. Omega was initially delirious and confused, thinking he was still fighting his dying battle on Cybertron and telling Ratchet that he was surrounded by Decepticons and didn't think he would make it. He soon got his bearings, but he was still slow and unsure after being offline for two million stellar cycles, and he needed heavy prompting from Ratchet to move. When he finally did get himself airborne, he was shocked and happy at his return to life, but he was at a loss as to how he got on a world other than Cybertron.

His reverie was quickly interrupted by an attack from several Decepticons. Following further hefty prompting from Ratchet and power boosts from his magnetics and the Key, he was able to transform and strike back. Declaring his name to the Decepticons, he made short work of the villains, and proceeded to enter Megatron's base. There, he found the space bridge in overdrive, threatening to pull the entire [[Michigan|state]] and transport it to some random co-ordinates. Ejecting Sari and Ratchet over Ratchet's vocal protests, he absorbed the [[transwarp|TransWarp]] energy and was sucked into the malfunctioning portal, which then fully self-destructed. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}}

Not long after, Omega's inactive body was discovered by Megatron and [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]], who had both also been pulled through the space bridge portal before it was destroyed. Seeing an opportunity, Megatron forced his way into the slumbering giant's body, but in doing so, caused Omega to reactivate. Omega's internal systems seized and disarmed Megatron, but the charismatic Decepticon exploited Omega's simple mind and convinced him that it was his duty to take him back to Cybertron "face justice". Omega transformed back into ship mode and revealed a heretofore unseen ability to TransWarp under his own power, without a space bridge, but one short jump drained him of all his power, and he returned to sleep mode before reaching the planet. Unable to escape Omega's heavily armoured body, Megatron instead used a pair of [[stasis cuffs]] to "hotwire" Omega's body, opening up his control cockpit and taking manual control of the giant Autobot. Before Megatron could do anything, however, Omega was beset by [[rock creature|some strange, space-borne alien rock monsters]], and the Autobot TransWarped away to safety, once again draining all his power.

[[Image:TransWarpedOmegaMegatron.jpg|thumb|200px|right|Omega(TRON) Supreme.]]

Megatron fixed that problem by inserting Starscream's head—and the AllSpark fragment it contained—into Omega's systems, charging him up. Megatron TransWarped Omega to Earth, where he transformed the titan to robot mode and took control of his body to attack Optimus Prime's Autobots. Prime and [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] were able to infiltrate Omega's body, and Prowl accessed Omega's internal processor in order to help Omega's suppressed consciousness fight back against Megatron's control. Omega succeeded in rejecting Megatron, but Starscream then promptly seized control and turned Omega's power on both the Autobots and Megatron. Even as Omega fought against Starscream and begged the other Autobots to take him offline again, Megatron talked Starscream into an alliance. The pair were about to TransWarp Omega to Cybertron when the Autobots planted a [[plasmadynamic thruster]] on their friend's body, which sent him and his two Decepticon passengers randomly warping across space. {{storylink|TransWarped}}
Eventually, the transwarping ship would come across Lugnut, reuniting him with Megatron as he had wanted.
{{storylink|Decepticon Air}}

Sometime after that, Megatron disabled the plasmadynamic thruster and gained control of Omega's transwarping and transformation capacity--though couldn't get the weapons online. The giant Autobot then came to rest in robot mode over Cybertron. While the inhabitants panicked, Megatron directed [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] to continue searching out Omega's activation codes. All that constant transwarping had built up such a surplus of transwarp energy in Omega Supreme's body that--when combined with the effects of a random energy storm in space--it simulated the effect of a [[space bridge]] and teleported Ratchet and [[Captain Fanzone]] to Cybertron. Sentinel Magnus wanted to destroy Omega Supreme and the Decepticons inside him, but the [[Autobot High Council]] was swayed towards patience by Ratchet's pleas (and the eensy little fact that shooting Omega, in his transwarp-infused state, might take out all of Cybertron with him). Shockwave succeeded in capturing Arcee and her activation codes and bringing her onto Omega Supreme; when Sentinel heard this, he ordered [[Fortress Maximus (Animated)|Fortress Maximus]] to destroy Omega Supreme, but it was too late: Omega transwarped into Earth orbit. {{storylink|This Is Why I Hate Machines}}

After Omega Supreme landed on the moon near the ''Nemesis'', Bumblebee transwarped onto Omega in a failed attempt to rescue Arcee, but had to retreat. As it happened, Omega's activation codes were quite well-protected within Arcee: despite Shockwave trying everything from tricking her with his "Longarm" persona, to using machines to scan her thought patterns, to electrically seizing control of her body and forcing her to bring the giant under Decepticon control, he was unable to get the necessary security patches and so Omega's weapons remained unavailable to Megatron. Which led to plan B: construct a trio of [[Lugnut Supreme|Omega clones under the control of Lugnut]]. Shockwave hooked Lugnut into the real Omega's computer relays, from which he would then direct the actions of the clones.{{storylink|Endgame, Part I}}

Shockwave kept trying and failing to extract Omega's activation codes. While the dark clones assaulted Earth, Ratchet, Bulkhead, Bumblebee, and Sari transwarped to the moon and rescued Arcee. Once she was fully awakened, Arcee brought Omega Supreme back on-line. Omega ejected Lugnut from his body, then hurried to Earth. By that time one of the Lugnut Supremes had already been deactivated, and Omega valiantly battled against the remaining two. He showed surprising speed and dexterity in combat, quickly transforming to spaceship mode in order to cushion his fall after being knocked backwards by his enemies. Omega managed to destroy one of the clones, but was struck from behind and disabled by the last one (which also spun him around like a pinwheel, leveling much of Detroit in the process). Eventually, the Autobots triumphed, and Omega Supreme carried them and the captured Decepticons back home to Cybertron. The cheering onlookers in the parade thought they were happy upon seeing the return of their victorious heroes--but when Omega Supreme transformed to robot mode at ground level, right in front of them, they were momentarily astonished into silence. Then, even more cheering! {{storylink|Endgame, Part II}}

==Notes==
*As with most of the characters in the show, Omega Supreme shares many similar details with his [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Generation 1 counterpart]], specifically his clear orange face mask, the cannon at the back of his head, his three-fingered right hand and his massive left-hand blaster. Ratchet also describes him as the Autobot's "last line of defense", a role which was also given to the original.

*It is unknown if Omega's ability to transwarp is an ability he always had or a side-effect of absorbing a space-bridge's transwarp energy.

[[Category: Animated characters]]
[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: Cartoon-only characters]]
[[Category: Starships]]

Rock Lord

2009-08-04T15:21:17Z

Fleb: New page: {{noname-nickname}} :''The rock creatures are are a mysterious species in the Animated continuity family.'' In uncharted regions of the universe,...

{{noname-nickname}}
:''The rock creatures are are a mysterious species in the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

In uncharted regions of the universe, nameless creatures sleep undisturbed by light or civilization. Though their dormant state may resemble common asteroids, this camouflage conceals their true ferocity. Feared by robots, their appetite for metal is matched only by their ferocious strength in battle. They are legend. They are... the '''rock creatures'''!

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
After untold aeons of peaceful slumber, a cluster of rock creatures was abruptly awakened by [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|an unexpected, light-emitting intruder in their midst]]. No sooner did they swarm over the massive alien than it vanished. Still, the disturbance was not a complete disappointment: A moment later, a [[Bumblebee (Animated)|small but tasty-looking... ''thing'']] appeared in the intruder's place, and was quickly devoured by the nearest rock creature.

Sated, the devourer prepared to return to sleep, but was disturbed to find itself suddenly alone [[Earth|in an alien, gravity-bound environment]]. Even worse, light now constantly poured down on it from [[Sun|some new, horrible menace]]. Destroying everything in its path, it might have found an escape from this terrible place if it weren't for [[Sari Sumdac|a tiny, irritatingly quick assailant]] that shattered the rock creature into hundreds of pieces. The three smaller rock creatures that regenerated from its shattered body hardly stood a chance. {{storylink|TransWarped}}

==Notes==
* The rock creatures are an homage to the [[Tonka GoBots]]' spinoff toyline the [[wikipedia:Rock Lords|Rock Lords]] ([[tagline]]: ''Powerful Living Rocks!''), which appeared in ''[[wikipedia:GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords|GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords]]''.

[[Category:Aliens]] [[Category:Species]] [[Category:Animated characters]] [[Category:Cartoon-only characters]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-08-04T13:12:29Z

Fleb: /* Did anything happen? */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-08-04T04:02:14Z

Fleb: /* Relicensing vote */

Enter the Nightbird

2009-07-27T17:12:23Z

Fleb: /* Quotes */

{{episode
|series=G1toon
|ep=26
|series2=SRLFtoon
|ep2=74
|image=EnterTheNightbird Nightbird starscream.jpg
|caption="All right, now hit Starscream in the groin-plate"
|title="Enter the Nightbird"
|production code=#700-25
|airdate=[[September 30]], 1985
|written by=[[Sylvia Wilson]] [[Richard Milton]]
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''The Decepticons capture Nightbird, a deadly ninja-bot, and turn her loose on the Autobots.'''

:''Japanese title:'' ナイトバードの影 (''Nightbird no Kage'', "The Shadow of Nightbird")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Nightbirdandfujiyama.jpg|left|175px|thumb|"No threat... not a threat at all."]]
The [[Autobot]]s are busily constructing [[detection plate]]s, a new invention of [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]]'s which will make the [[Ark (G1)|base]] more secure by detecting intruders. They're interrupted in their work by a call from [[Doctor Fujiyama the Famous Scientist]], requesting their help in guarding his latest invention during its unveiling to the world. [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus]] agrees when the doctor informs him that the invention is a sophisticated new robot. The Autobots attend the event, though Wheeljack and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] are more interested in mocking the invention. Finally Dr. Fujiyama unveils [[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]], a "female ninja robot". Predictably, the [[Decepticon]]s attack and immediately have the upper hand because the Autobots won’t fight in a hall crowded with humans. As soon as the humans are cleared out, Optimus orders a counter-attack, personally grappling with Megatron. The Autobots are soon fully occupied, allowing [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] to tear the roof off the building, so that [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] can lassoo Nightbird and carry the robot away. Their prize obtained, the rest of the Decepticons retreat.

They retire to Megatron's temporary base, a [[Giant Decepticon insignia|masterfully disguised fortress]], where [[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] sets to work reprogramming Nightbird and tripling her power. Her first action on being reactivated is to immediately attack Starscream, which gains Megatron's approval. [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] gives her her new orders — infiltrate Autobot headquarters and steal the [[World Energy Chip]] from [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]].

Meanwhile, [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus]] is apologetic for their abject failure to protect the robot, and promises to return it back to Dr. Fujiyama quickly and unharmed. The Autobots return to base, Ratchet carrying the injured [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]]. Nightbird soon arrives at Autobot HQ as well, avoiding a security camera by accessing the base through the top of the [[Mount St. Hilary|volcano]], eavesdropping on [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] and [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]'s puzzled conversation over the Decepticons' latest plan. She neatly avoids Wheeljack's detection plates by magnetizing her feet and walking along the roof. Reaching Teletraan I, she removes the World Energy Chip, plunging the base into darkness and alerting the Autobots to the intruder.

[[Image:Nightbirdspotlight.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Nightbird wants her own [[Spotlight (comics)|spotlight comic]].]]
In her attempt to escape, she first encounters [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] and bashes her way past the startled Autobot. A group of Autobots corners her, but are hampered by the promise they made not to harm her, and she is able to use her ninja abilities to blind them and effect a proper escape. The Autobots pursue her outside, where Optimus spots her on a clifftop and drops her with a stun ray. As [[Bluestreak]] approaches her, she suddenly jumps up and decks him before throwing more spinning blades at his comrades. Optimus stops [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] from firing on her, reminding him again of their promise to Dr. Fujiyama, then attempts to reason with Nightbird. The robot responds by attacking him with her energy sword and stealing his rifle, though she leaves her sword behind.

Watching remotely, Megatron and Bombshell are impressed with Nightbird's work. Starscream less so when Megatron suggests she would make a good replacement for the air commander.

Ratchet and [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] discover the absence of the World Energy Chip and notify Prime. Using [[Hound (G1)|Hound]]'s sensors, the Autobots quickly relocate Nightbird, and Optimus attempts to lure her closer with her sword. She merely takes the weapon and knocks him down. The Autobots continue their attempts, unsuccessfully, to try to bring the ninja 'bot down.

[[Image:Nightbirdprime.jpg|left|175px|thumb|Prime, taking advantage of the fact [[Elita One|Elita]]'s on [[Cybertron (planet)|another planet]].]]
Meanwhile, Starscream has had enough of Megatron's insinuations about replacing him, and decks his leader. He's swiftly restrained by the other Decepticons and trapped in a cage. Megatron turns back to his spying and, seeing that Nightbird has finally been caught by the Autobots in an energy web, orders the Decepticons out on a mission to rescue her and the World Energy Chip. Optimus is able to retrieve the Chip from Nightbird, but it's dropped in the subsequent Decepticon ambush. After a brief spell in Bombshell's possession, Optimus regains the chip, but Megatron responds by freeing Nightbird from her cage and unleashing her on the Autobots.

[[Image:Nightbirdangry.jpg|right|175px|thumb|Hell hath no fury like a Nightbird scorned.]]
Starscream uses a small missile to free himself from the cage in the Decepticon base, and swiftly reaches the battle in time to watch Nightbird overwhelming Optimus with her combat skills. Seeking revenge, the Decepticon uses his [[null-ray]] on Nightbird, disabling her. Megatron is enraged and calls off the attack so everyone can pursue Starscream.

The Autobots make good on their promise by returning Nightbird unharmed to Fujiyama, who decides to put her in storage. Despite being neutralized, Nightbird casts a final, angered glare out at the cold, cold, world.

{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (1)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (2)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (3)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (4)
* [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (5)
* [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (6)
* [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (7)
* [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] (10)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (11)
* [[Bluestreak]] (15)
* [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (16)
* [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (21)

|c2=
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] (8)
* [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] (9)
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] (12)
* [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (13)
* [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (14)
* [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (17)
* [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (18)
* [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] (19)
* [[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] (20)

|c3=
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]]
* [[Doctor Fujiyama the Famous Scientist]]

|c4=
*[[Nightbird (G1)|Nightbird]]
}}

==Quotes==
"Imagine, Autobots playing nursemaid to an earth robot. It's probably just a glorified wind-up toy."
:—Look who's talking, '''Wheeljack'''.

'''Wheeljack''': If it walks it probably needs a long extension cord. 
'''Ratchet''': Heh heh heh. I wonder if batteries are included. Heh, heh, heh. 
'''Wheeljack''': When they turn it on it'll probably blow the lights. 
'''Optimus''': We're here to guard the robot, not make jokes at its expense.
:—Wheeljack and Ratchet, masters of diplomacy

"Ah, why build a robot ninja, doctor? Isn't that rather dangerous?"
:—The '''guy with the white mustache''' asks what we're all thinking.

"I bring you greetings, Optimus Prime...lethal greetings!"
:—'''Megatron'''. His writers don't get paid enough.

"I love warping minds for you, Megatron, love it."
:—'''Bombshell''', the spokesman for ''Grand Theft Auto''.

"She's not so hot!" 
"She's hot enough to replace you whenever I choose!"
:—'''Starscream''' and '''Megatron''' utter the words that launch a thousand [[fanfic]]s.

"Yes, you're definitely on my replacement list, Starscream... Hahaha, she's everything I've always wanted!"
:—'''Megatron'''. Aw, all he wanted was some love.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
* When Rumble and Frenzy break into the show room, Rumble's pile drivers are rectangular prisms instead of cylinders.

* When Nightbird's lightsaber is shot and deactivated, you can still hear the sound effects for about two more seconds before they stop.

* Optimus Prime gets shot in the back by Megatron, but his voice sounds like Mirage as he falls over.

===Continuity errors===
*Wheeljack makes fun of humanity's attempt at robotics, when his security system being fitted at the beginning of the episode is just a glorified metal detector, that reacts to metal, the very thing that the Autobots and the base are made of. It even reacts to his '''hand''', which means that the whole system is pointless.

* At the end of the second act, Nightbird gets the drop on Prime and raises her sword as if to slice him in half. At the opening of the third act, however, she's just standing there in front of him, idly spinning the sword around.

===Transformers references===
* In [[3H]]'s [[Universe (2003 comic)|Universe comics]], Nightbird returned as a savage horde, which forced [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel Witwicky]] to kill himself and [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] to destroy them...which goes to show that they ''are'' good for something.

===Real-world references===
* The title could be a reference to the film ''[[wikipedia:Enter_the_Dragon|Enter the Dragon]]''. This would not be the last time the film is referenced in a Transformers series.

===Trivia===
* When the Autobots are chasing Nightbird up a cliff, Cliffjumper can't jump the cliff. He might need a new name.

* Wheeljack and Ratchet are very mean this episode, considering Wheeljack's normal success rate. (Granted, there are [[Dinobot (G1)|exceptions]], but those were collaborative efforts with Ratchet.) ''Oy vey''.

* Doctor Fujiyama's response to the Decepticons stealing Nightbird is that no one could have predicted it happening. Except he did, that's why he called the Autobots in the first place.

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/enter_the_nightbird.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicle]

[[Category:Generation 1 episodes]]

File:Junkion jimmy.gif

2009-07-22T02:31:27Z

Fleb: no it isn't...

A Junkion from The Big Broadcast of 2006
{{hastak}}
Copyright Hasbro 1986

This image is used by the {{tl|cleanup}} template.

Nemesis (Animated)

2009-07-21T22:47:05Z

Fleb: /* Animated */ Animated AllSpark might have nothing to do with reproduction

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Nemesis}}
:''The ''Nemesis'' is a Decepticon starship in the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[continuity family]].''
[[Image:TFA TFandRollout Decepticonship.jpg|right|300px|thumb|No... THIS is the most powerful Decepticon warship in Transformer history.]]
The '''''Nemesis''''' is a [[Decepticon]] ship, originally under the command of [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]]. According to [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]], the markings on the ship depict it is a command ship.

==Fiction==
===Animated===
The ''Nemesis'' was a Decepticon warship under the control of [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]]. Unknown to the Autobots, it carried the [[protoform]]s stolen from Master [[Yoketron]]'s dojo four million years prior. {{storylink|Endgame, Part I}}

It showed up on the outskirts of [[Autobot]]-controlled space almost immediately after the legendary [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] was discovered by [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] and his crew of [[space bridge]] repair-bots. It attacked [[Teletran-1]] in an attempt to capture the AllSpark. When the Autobots and the glorious [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] were hurled into an unstable space bridge, the Decepticon crew abandoned ship, leaving the ''Nemesis'' and its new captain [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] to be [[Slag (slang)|slag]]ged by the impending explosion. For the next fifty [[stellar cycle]]s, Starscream piloted the remains of the ship, searching for the AllSpark to show the Decepticons he deserved to be their new leader. When its systems detected an AllSpark-like energy signature from a remote star system, he went to investigate. En route, he monitored television transmissions that depicted Prime and his Autobots as the new superheroes of [[Detroit]]. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

''Shortly before arriving at Earth, Starscream was surprised when the ''Nemesis'' detected an intruder. He ambushed [[Blackarachnia (Animated)| Blackarachnia]], who was also seeking the AllSpark, but not before she planted a tracking device on his back. Unfortunately, distracted by the battle, Starscream was unable to prevent the ''Nemesis'' from crashing into the Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. {{storylink|Dispatches}}''

''In the course of tracking down [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|the robot who took Megatron offline]], [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]] discovered the crashed ''Nemesis'' on the Earth's moon. While accessing its logs, he discovered that Blackarachnia was still onboard. After a brief confrontation, both combatants were knocked offline. Based on the information contained in the ''Nemesis''<nowiki>'</nowiki> memory banks, Lockdown headed for Earth, unaware that Blackarachnia was hitching a ride down to the planet. {{storylink|A Few Loose Strands}}''

[[Image:LugnutBlitzwingNemesis.JPG|left|200px|thumb|Moral of the story: [[Seeker (body-type)|seeker]]s can't park!]]
Later, [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut]] found its remains when they were hunting down the Autobots in between much-needed dancing lessons. {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}}

After his escape from the [[Cybertron Elite Guard|Elite Guard]] [[Elite Guard flagship|ship]], Starscream returned to the ''Nemesis'' and appeared to stay there for a full deca-cycle until [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] showed up to hunt for the Decepticon traitor to turn him in. Because of the intervention of [[Lockdown (Animated)|Lockdown]], Starscream eluded capture, and Prowl and Lockdown returned to Earth, unknowingly chasing after one of his [[Starscream clone|clones]]. After the clone's failed attempt on Megatron's life, Starscream was again seen aboard the ''Nemesis'', watching a transmission of Megatron telling the other Decepticons that the bounty on Starscream had increased. Enraged, Starscream swore vengeance on Megatron, turning to show an entire hull full of Starscream clones. {{storylink|A Fistful of Energon}}

Some time later, Starscream and five of his clones flew to Earth to destroy Megatron, leaving the wreckage of the ''Nemesis'' behind. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part I}}

The Decepticons then returned to seize the remaining protoforms as well as ransacking the ship for raw materials. The protoforms placed inside giant exo-structures made from components of the ''Nemesis''' hull gave rise to Megatron's ultimate weapons: a fleet of [[Lugnut Supreme]]s.{{storylink|Endgame, Part I}}

==Notes==
* The design of this ''Nemesis'' is a strong homage to [[Nemesis (G1)|the G1 vessel of the same name]].

[[Category:Animated]]
[[Category:Decepticon bases]]
[[Category:Starships]]

Aerial Assault

2009-07-20T17:59:02Z

Fleb: /* Notes */

{{episode
|image=Giantpurplegriffon.jpg
|caption=Megatron really should have listened to Starscream's instinctive declaration that it wouldn't work.
|series=G1toon
|ep=58
|series2=SRLFtoon
|ep2=46
|title="Aerial Assault"
|written by=[[Douglas Booth]]
|production code=700-57
|airdate=[[December 10]], 1985
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''Slingshot and Skydive go undercover to discover who is responsible for the theft of planes in the Middle East.'''

:''Japanese title:'' 突撃エアーボット (''Totsugeki Airbot'', "Charge, Airbots")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Aerialassault.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Hey, look, no arms!]]

In an unnamed Middle Eastern country, the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]] are searching for clues to a group that is stealing planes. After flying over a bazaar (in which is a [[Swindle (G1)|hauntingly familiar jeep]] being driven by a suspicious man loading equipment), the Aerialbots receive a distress call. Heading into a nearby canyon, they are attacked by the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]] and [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]], and [[Slingshot]] ends up being buried within a cave by [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]]. However, [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]], [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], and [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] arrive and drive off the [[Decepticon]]s. After unearthing Slingshot, the [[Autobot]]s return to a nearby air base for repairs. Slingshot is fixed, but his weapons systems have been damaged, and he needs a new console from the [[Ark (G1)|base]]. [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]] gets the idea to let himself serve as bait, which [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], in his infinite wisdom, believes is a good idea, and Slingshot decides to join as well. As night comes, the two Aerialbots are soon stolen by the plane-nappers, but they are disassembled and their [[radio transmitter]]s are disabled.

[[Image:AerialAssault Slightshot newchest.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Retooling gone badly wrong.]]

Transporting their ill-gotten planes in laundry trucks, the plane-nappers manage to get past security, but are followed by a young boy named [[Prince Jumal|Hassan]]. Getting into the truck carrying the Aerialbots' nose cones, he meets up with them and identifies the man heading this operation as [[Ali]]. As it turns out, Ali has deposed Prince Jumal, the young ruler of the country, and has allied with [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] to create both [[plane drone]]s for conquering the oil fields of the [[Middle East]], and a...[[Giant Purple Griffin]] that will...do...stuff. As the convoy reaches the Palace, the Decepticons begin reassembling the planes, but the Aerialbots cause themselves to short-circuit, leaving their parts free to be reassembled. They manage to get everything except Slingshot's chest plate, but Hassan manages to borrow the front grill assembly from a car that Prince Jumal owned.

[[Image:AerialAssault Onslaughtheadinsand.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Onslaught's head in the sand serves subtly as a scathing rebuke of isolationism as foreign policy.]]

As the Decepticons prepare to mobilize, Skydive and Slingshot manage to contact the other Aerialbots, who come to help. Meanwhile, Hassan has slipped aboard the...fortress to steal a new weapons console for Slingshot. As the Aerialbots arrive, Blast Off, [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]], and [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] take control of the drone forces. The Aerialbots are able to dispatch the drones and their commanders, so [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] decides to off them himself, only to be stopped by Slingshot. Blast Off orders the Combaticons to [[Transformation|transform]] into [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]]. Slingshot bravely tries to prevent the merge, as [[Fireflight (G1)|Fireflight]]'s absence prevents his own team from merging into [[Superion (G1)|Superion]]. Eventually, Bruticus forms after Slingshot is thrown into the head of the now mobile...fortress. Hassan gets a weapon console to Slingshot, frees them, then heads to attack Bruticus. Fireflight finally arrives, and the Aerialbots form Superion and damage the...fortress, causing it to crash into an oil field. Superion separates into his Aerialbot components, causing the diving Bruticus to fall into the oil field. The Aerialbots then set fire to the field, forcing the Decepticons to retreat.

At the palace, the Aerialbots are trying to figure out what to do with Ali and what he did with Prince Jumal, only to discover that Hassan ''is'' Prince Jumal. He explains that Slingshot may keep the new chest plate as a gift, as Jumal's hobby is fixing old junk cars. Slingshot feels honored...till he thinks that Jumal is calling him a piece of junk.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (6)
* [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]] (7)
* [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] (8)
* [[Slingshot]] (9)
* [[Fireflight (G1)|Fireflight]] (10)
* [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] (16)
* [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (17)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (18)
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (19)
* [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] (25)

|c2=
* [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] (4)
* [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (11)
* [[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (12)
* [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (13)
* [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (14)
* [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (15)
* [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (20)
* [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] (21)
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] (22)
* [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] (23)
* [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]] (24)

|c3=
* Auto parts merchant (1)
* [[Prince Jumal|Hassan/Prince Jumal]] (2)
* [[Ali]] (3)
* Ali's henchmen (5)
}}

==Quotes==
"Hey. Did you just call me a... junker?" 
"Don't worry, Slingshot. No matter what you're made of, you'll always be a Rolls Royce to me!"
:—'''Slingshot''' and '''Jumal'''

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
[[Image:Slingshot undercover.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Hmm let's see... Autobot symbol... nope, nothing suspicious to see here!]]
* Slingshot flips his new Rolls Royce grill chest plate over, and its backside matches his original chest design, but colored gray. After this scene, however, his chest has its normal coloration.
* During the final scene, when Slingshot and Prince Jumal are discussing the Rolls Royce grille Slingshot was using as a chest plate, the front of the grille appears and disappears into thin air several times, without being flipped over.
* When Fireflight finally arrives to help the rest of the Aerialbots against Bruticus, he is colored entirely black.
* Since ''when'' do laundry trucks visit aircraft hangars?

===Continuity errors===
* The Combaticons first appeared in this episode, but their origin is explained in "[[Starscream's Brigade]]", which premiered well ''after'' this episode aired. Somebody was obviously impatient [[to sell toys]].

===Transformers references===
* The country in which the action takes place is not named, but it could possibly be [[Socialist Democratic Federated Republic of Carbombya|Carbombya]] or a neighbor of it.

===Trivia===
* The Giant Purple Griffin has become one of the most mocked creations in Trans[[fandom]].
* Superion's voice in this episode is different from "[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2]]".
* This is one of many G1 episodes that aired out of sequence. Chronologically, it occurs after "[[The Revenge of Bruticus]]", as well as "[[War Dawn]]", because the Aerialbots have no problem fighting Decepticons ''and'' aren't jerks towards humans.

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/aerial_assault.html Dossier on the Cybertron Chronicle]

[[Category:Generation 1 episodes]]
[[Category:MSTF]]

Talk:Blank

2009-07-20T17:35:22Z

Fleb: 3-part system

== 3-part system ==

''A blank represents 2 parts of the 3-part protoform system'' 
A blank is made of something besides a protoform? What's the other thing? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 13:35, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Jetstorm (Animated)

2009-07-20T17:29:03Z

Fleb: /* Notes */

{{factions|autobot|eliteguard}}{{disambig3|Jetstorm}}
:''Jetstorm is a [[Autobot|comrade]] from the [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Jetstormanimatedboxart.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Still got the air superiority complex?]]

'''Jetstorm''' and his twin [[brother]] [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] are part of a risky Autobot [[Cybertron Elite Guard|Elite Guard]] experiment in duplicating the flight and combat abilities of the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]]. While the experiment gave them incredible new powers, it did absolutely nothing to blunt their hyperactive, act-without-thinking natures. Jetstorm is capable of attacking with incredible bursts of wind in both robot and jet modes, creating focused cyclones with devastating force (if somewhat questionable accuracy). Luckily, he's one of the few bots who actually listens to [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]], and stops his attack once his commander barks out his order to do so... though usually by that time, the damage has already been done.

The twins also have the ability to combine into a superjet ''and'' the powerful robot [[Safeguard (Animated)|Safeguard]]. Both modes greatly enhance their combat effectiveness... but not their wits, unfortunately.

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' continuity===
{{note|Events from [[IDW Publishing]] comics are in italics}}
:''Voice actor:'' [[Phil LaMarr]] (English)
[[Image:Jetfirejetstormzackly.jpg|left|200px|thumb|He's just mad because he didn't think of the joke first.]]

''Jetstorm was a simple repair bot who, along with his brother Jetfire, nearly died in an on-site accident. Viewed by the [[Elite Guard]] as completely expendable, Jetstorm and his brother were chosen to have [[Decepticon]] coding (acquired from [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] during his time in custody) grafted onto their Autobot shells in hopes that the pair would gain the Decepticons' flight abilities. [[Wheeljack (Animated)|Wheeljack]], [[Perceptor (Animated)|Perceptor]] and [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] did the necessary calculations and programming needed. After this, the pair's combat abilities were tested against [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]], whom they easily defeated.''

[[Image:Jetstormdoesnotswing.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"Boot" is a sound effect?]]

''To try their combat skills against a Decepticon, Starscream's programming was scanned into a combat simulator. However, Starscream's programming overpowered the training system, and the battle became real. Starscream's strength and cunning were more than they expected; Jetfire briefly lost control of his flame throwers and began to burn up, only to be saved when Jetstorm's wind turbines put out the flames. With newfound determination, the two combined into Safeguard for the first time and destroyed the virtual Decepticon. After this performance, Jetstorm and his brother were inducted into the Elite Guard. {{storylink|First (and Second) in Flight}}''

Later, Jetstorm, along with his brother, Jazz, and [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]], were sent by [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm Prime]] to chase after the supposed Decepticon spy [[Wasp]]. The twins soon found a Wasp-disguised [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]], whom Wasp intended to frame by swapping paint jobs, helmets and voices, but Jetstorm accidentally (and literally) blew Bumblebee away. They then were confronted by [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]], who mistook them for Decepticons due to their ability to fly. After a one-on-one battle with Optimus & Ratchet (with Jetstorm facing Optimus and Jetfire facing Ratchet, respectively), the two combined into Safeguard to try and gain the upper hand, only to have the brawl end when Sentinel and Jazz arrived and cleared up the misunderstanding. Then, under Sentinel's orders, the twins set out to find Wasp once more.

They later found him with [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] and [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]], who tried to convince them that Wasp had swapped places with Bumblebee, but to no avail. The twins assumed all three to be traitors and attacked them. The long battle was once again broken up by the others, who had become at least partly convinced of Bumblebee's true identity. The group quickly headed back to the Autobots' base to try and sort out the matter. During the fighting, however, Wasp had hacked into the Autobots' files on Bumblebee, allowing Wasp to know everything about him. Bulkhead decided to settle it with a game of ''Ninja Gladiator'' to determine the real Bumblebee. Jetfire and Jetstorm were so delighted by the concept of video games that they both shouted that they would play the winner. This would not happen, as Wasp revealed his true identity under the pressure. He swapped the paint jobs back and was able to escape. {{storylink|Where Is Thy Sting?}}

Later on, they were just as out of the loop as Jazz and Optimus when Sentinel was tracking down Decepticons, although they were considerably less cynical about the captures than the others. They did however combine to fight [[Liar Starscream]] when Sentinel's stupid ego-trip backfired on him.
{{storylink|Five Servos of Doom}}
{{charstubfiction}}
{{Storylink|Predacons Rising}}
{{storylink|This Is Why I Hate Machines}}

===Safeguard toy bio===
{{note|In the comic included with the toy, Jetfire and Jetstorm are not clones, but already exist as refinery bots. They are upgraded into [[Elite Guard]] warriors. {{storylink|First (and Second) in Flight|Rise of Safeguard}}}}
Jetfire and Jetstorm are clones created by the Autobots from techniques learned from Starscream.

==Toys==
===Animated===
[[Image:AniJetstorm-toy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Not to be confused with JetBlue...or Blue Jet.]]
*'''Jetfire and Jetstorm''' (Entertainment Pack, 2008)

: Available only in a two-pack with his brother Jetfire, Jetstorm transforms into a blue Cybertronic wedge-shaped jet. He features pop-up "wind blades" in his robot mode armor. He can combine with his brother in both modes; in vehicle mode, they form an odd super-jet simply by docking together along their undercarriages (Yes, yes, har har, very droll), while Jetstorm's robot mode forms the left half of the super robot Safeguard.

: Both Jetfire and Jetstorm can flip open their cockpits. Nice. Pointless, but nice.

: The set comes with a bonus comic book, "[[First (and Second) in Flight|Rise of Safeguard]]", which details the creation of the twins.

{{-}}

==Notes==
[[Image:TFA Jetfire Jetstorm concept.jpg|right|200px|thumb|CHEEKS!]]
* Both twins speak with a pronounced Russian accent.<ref>[http://twitter.com/DerrickJWyatt/statuses/2212733768 Twitter post by Derrick Wyatt]</ref>

* Jetstorm's design, revealed at [[BotCon 2008]], contains numerous [[homage]]s to the ''[[Beast Machines (franchise)|Beast Machines]]'' [[Vehicon general]] [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]], particularly his helmet.

* Jetfire and Jetstorm's fire/wind theme has its roots in some of the earliest concepts of ''Animated''. [[Sean Galloway]], who had been commissioned to do early concept work for the series, revealed several pieces of this concept art long before the "final" [[Derrick J. Wyatt|Derrick Wyatt]]-designed characters were shown. Among these images were a pair of "fire and wind" robots who have a few features that made it into the jet-twins' final designs.

* The twins' method of combination is seemingly an intentional homage to Hyoryū and Enryū/Chōryūjin from the final installment of Takara's [[Brave]] Series, ''King of Braves GaoGaiGar''.

* In the early stages of the toy's development, the end of the twins' combined vehicle mode is supposed to split apart and wings are supposed to slide out of the shins, so that the combined mode resembles an [[Luke Skywalker|X-wing fighter]]<ref>http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2008/09/hey-everybody-its-prowl.html</ref> however, this did not appear in the released instructions.

* Perceptor's dialogue in the "[[First (and Second) in Flight|Rise of Safeguard]]" comic implies that the twins were split from one [[protoform]], possibly indicating that Safeguard is their true form.

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:Clones]]
[[Category: Elite Guard]]

The Girl Who Loved Powerglide

2009-07-20T17:15:36Z

Fleb: /* Trivia */

{{episode
|image=Powerglide heart.jpg
|caption=He's just looking for a heaaaartbeeeaaaat...
|series=G1toon
|ep=54
|series2=SRLFtoon
|ep2=37
|title="The Girl Who Loved Powerglide"
|written by=[[David Wise]]
|production code=700-53
|airdate=[[November 18]], 1985
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''A newly-orphaned debutante must protect her late father's work from Megatron. She finds Powerglide, and with him, safety...or perhaps...something...more?'''

:''Japanese title:'' 令嬢より愛をこめて (''Reijō Yori Ai o Kome te'', "From Your Daughter with Love")
:''German title:'' "'''Das Mädchen, dass sich in Powerglide verliebt'''" ("The Girl who loved Powerglide")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Powerglide Astoria Marygoaround.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Scale doesn't matter, really.]]

One day [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]] is out flying when he passes by a building. While he is up in the air, he spots the Conehead trio, [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]], [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]], and [[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]]. He observes that they are trying to kidnap [[Astoria Carlton-Ritz]] from her birthday party.

Powerglide successfully saves Astoria (surprise surprise) but the way he does it is rather... unconventional. Dragging a rope behind him, Powerglide manages to have Astoria snatch the rope despite her not knowing whether Powerglide was there to help her or otherwise. He then proceeds to sweep through the city with her flying through the air at breakneck speed while clinging to a dangling rope with only her arm strength to keep Astoria from plummeting thousands of feet to her sure death. Powerglide does reel her up where she is stowed safely in his cockpit, amusingly with her large floppy purple hat still present.

After performing several evasive manuevers that leave Astoria tumbling willy nilly around Powerglide's cabin, he manages to lose the Coneheads by ducking beneath an overpass. Powerglide introduces himself while they are waiting and we are treated to one of Astoria's supernatural powers: resistance to bruises and scrapes after she is tossed back several feet by a sweep of the red jet's arm when she attempts to glomp him in gratitude.

The duo manages to make it back to [[Sparkplug Witwicky|Sparkplug]]'s workshop without any further mishap. [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] shares some pertinent information with Powerglide and Sparkplug and also reveals that the young heiress doesn't know about some of the ventures her company works on even though she is in charge of the company. Optimus Prime believes [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] wants something from her so he orders Powerglide to escort her back to the [[Ark (G1)|Autobot Headquarters]]. On the way to the Ark, Astoria pipes up and says she is starving and wants to eat something.

Meantime in the Decepticon Base, Megatron is quite unhappy about the Coneheads' failure. He orders them to bring Astoria to him and this time without any failures.

[[Image:Astoria wrap Powerglide's wound.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Wrapping the wound can prevent the sands from getting in.]]

After sating her hunger with hot-dogs, Astoria is quick to amuse herself by jumping on the merry-go-around, much to Powerglide's consternation and bemusement.

After they get down from the merry-go-round, the Coneheads come back for Astoria. Powerglide somehow manages to get rid of them and takes Astoria with him. But soon he gets caught up and is rammed by Ramjet. In the skirmish, Powerglide's left arm and left wing are injured and he is forced to make a crash landing. Powerglide eventually is defeated by the Coneheads whereupon the Coneheads take Astoria to their base.

Powerglide is left engulfed in rocks but somehow he manages to get out from beneath the debris and attempts to set off in pursuit of the Coneheads. Despite his determination, he collapses due to his injuries but he is quickly rescued by [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]].

After Ratchet does some basic repairs on him, Powerglide refuses any further repairs and goes to see Optimus Prime. While Powerglide is discussing his options with Optimus Prime, [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]] notifies them that [[Sky Spy]] just detected an unusual atmospheric disturbance over the Northern Atlantic and the source is 10 miles above the sea level. Optimus Prime thinks it is possibly the [[Sky Platform|Decepticons' suborbital station]]. Impulsively, Powerglide rushes out of the Ark and flies directly to the Sky Platform and consequently into the energy storm.

[[Image:Pgalove.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Powerglide crushes Astoria in a fit of rage.]]

Meanwhile, the Decepticons are interrogating Astoria about the energy formula left by her father. She claims that she know nothing so Megatron decides to use the [[psycho-probe]] in order to make her tell him about the formula. To the Decepticon leader's frustration, the psycho-probe keeps malfunctioning, easily provoking Megatron into a rage that even Starscream's traitorous antics can't cause. In his anger, the psycho-probe is destroyed by Megatron.

Then the Decepticons find Powerglide trying to break through the energy storm and everyone goes out to see it. Megatron laughs at Powerglide and says he won't be able to break through the energy storm. But Astoria throws her necklace given by her father toward the energy-storm-generating tower and successfully destroys it. Not surprisingly, the necklace contains the energy formula, but one is forced to speculate how exactly a human-built necklace manages to bring down a large and powerful tower.

The destroyed tower collapses the buildings on Sky Platform. The Sky Platform loses its control and starts to fall down. The Decepticons retreat to [[Decepticon Headquarters|their headquarters]]. Both Powerglide and Astoria go into the control room where Astoria proceeds to demonstrate her superhuman strength by pulling off a metal slab from the control panel. After a bit of a lover's tiff, Powerglide fiddles around with the control panel, successfully slowing down the Sky Platform's descent long enough for the duo to make good their escape. The Sky Platform is shown shortly afterwards falling into the ocean and much to the Decepticons' horror, it crashes on part of the Decepticons' headquarters, allowing massive quantities of seawater to rush into the base.

[[Image:Astoria kisses Powerglide.jpg|right|200px|thumb|[[Moonracer]] is gooonna be maaad!]]

Back safe in the city, Powerglide asks Astoria why Megatron was so keen on kidnapping Astoria. She tells him it was because of the energy formula hidden in her necklace. Much to the present Autobots' private glee, Powerglide asks whether if he could look her up next time he comes to town in a rather shy manner. Astoria is very happy and [[kiss]]es him before she scurries off to her limo and is carted off. The minute Astoria is out of earshot, everyone has a good-natured laugh at Powerglide's expense. Thoroughly embarrassed, Powerglide threatens the would-be teasers with a good boxing around the circuits before he stomps into the building.

Once Powerglide is out of sight of the other Autobots, he pauses to open his chest plate, showing a series of LEDs flashing in the form of a stylized heart.

{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]] (5)
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (6)
*[[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (7)
*[[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (8)
*[[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (13)

|c2=
*[[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (2)
*[[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] (3)
*[[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]] (4)
*[[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] (9)
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (10)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (11)
*[[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] (12)

|c3=
*[[Astoria Carlton-Ritz]] (1)
*[[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] (8)
*[[Sparkplug Witwicky]] (7)
}}

==Quotes==
"Oh wow! He's tall, he's handsome, he's shiny. And he can fly!"
:—'''Astoria''' comments on Powerglide

"Why does everything always happen to me?"
:—'''Powerglide''' laments his lot in life.

"You are supposed to be the most powerful jets in the galaxy, and you were beaten by a pipsqueak Autobot plane?!"
:—'''Megatron''' berates the Coneheads for their defeat at the hands of Powerglide.

'''Thrust''': We have come for the girl. 
'''Ramjet''': And we will get the girl. 
'''Dirge''': Or else.
:—The Coneheads act tough.

"Autobot, meet your doom!"
:—'''Dirge''' taunts Powerglide

"You got any burgers in this joint?" 
"Silence!"
:—'''Astoria''' and '''Soundwave'''

"Subject's mind completely empty."
:—Why in God's name didn't '''Soundwave''' just scan her mind himself?

"The psycho-probe will put 90,000 volts through your brain. It is an excruciating experience. Will you tell me what you know??" 
"All this waiting around, that's what's excruciating. I mean, I'm starving, for cryin' out loud! When are you guys gonna feed me? That's what I wanna know. Your dumb machine, like, doesn't even work, and—" 
"Enough!"
:—'''Megatron''' wants '''Astoria''' to just shut up

"Then I'm staying with you, no matter what!"
:—'''Astoria''' to Powerglide

"Energize the force fields!" 
"What force fields?!"
:—'''Megatron''' and '''Soundwave'''

"Attention Decepticons, this is Megatron speaking. Your new orders are...er...clean up this mess!"
:—'''Megatron''' broadcasts to the Decepticons.

"Ha wow! Who would've believed it! Powerglide shot down by Cupid!"
:—'''Sparkplug''' teases Powerglide after he is kissed by Astoria.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
*Powerglide shoots the vending machine and blows a huge hole in the front of the machine. However, soda is shown shooting directly out of the bottom of the vending machine in a straight line. This seems virtually impossible.

[[Image:Powerglide Astoria w.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Powerglide starts the drag race by throwing down his handkerchief.]]

*Powerglide's landing gears are all painted red when he lands after being rammed by Ramjet.
*When Powerglide holds Astoria to save her from falling, her body is drawn, um, weird.

===Continuity errors===
* Seriously, Soundwave could have scanned Astoria's mind like he scanned [[Chip Chase]] back in "[[Roll for It]]". Surely, Astoria couldn't have jinxed that ability too!

===Real-world references===
* Astoria's name comes from two famous upscale hotels, the Waldorf-Astoria and Ritz-Carlton.
* "It's my party, and I'll cry if I want to!", as announced by Astoria early in the episode, is a lyric from the 1963 Lesley Gore song, "[[Wikipedia: It's My Party (song)|It's My Party]]".

===Trivia===
* Powerglide is actually quite abusive to the [[Astoria Carlton-Ritz|human he is charged with "saving" in this episode.]] Not even the Decepticons have ever been shown slamming a human to the concrete so hard that they bounce or out and out striking a human. But hey, that's what she gets for having to be told twice, right Powerglide?
* Speaking of which, Astoria seems to take a ''lot'' of abuse in this episode and still manages to brush it off with no real injuries.
* Powerglide's first line in the episode seems to revolve around the notion that one can be ''either'' a top scientist, ''or'' a girl. Dag, Powerglide.
*It seems Astoria is also gifted with superhuman strength, as she is able to hold her own against the Coneheads, prevent Powerglide from taking her necklace, and rip a metal panel with her bare hands. Maybe Powerglide's abuse doesn't seem as bad as it was. ''Still...''
*One of the party guests at the beginning of the episode uses the British expletive "bloody". Don't ya' just love the culture barrier?

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/the_girl_who_loved_powerglide.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicle]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Girl Who Loved Powerglide}}
[[Category:Generation 1 episodes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing

2009-07-16T21:01:27Z

Fleb: /* Seriously you guys . . . */

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
:::::::::::Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

:::::::::::We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

:::::::::::Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

:::::::::::Signed,
:::::::::::Liz Calkins

::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::But like Jeysie said, GFDL ''already'' has those problems, it's a Share-Alike-style license and has all the weird ambiguities that CC-By-SA has for a fandom wiki, so I'm not sure how switching advances the Brave Copyright Cause and exposes TFWiki to legal troubles anymore than the license we're already stuck with? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::^^ This. And, you're still not paying attention to anything else I've said either.
::::::::::Hasbro has control over their copyright. And, to be perfectly honest, in the end Hasbro has full control over ''our'' stuff too anyway because it's technically unauthorized derivative works. I've known several fangames once where the parent company basically made them either sign control of the game over to them or delete the games entirely. What the fangame people wanted to do with their games regards licensing meant precisely jack, because they didn't control the copyright their work was based on. This is exactly the same situation.
::::::::::We can get away with making people not licensed by Hasbro follow our rules regards our content, but that's it. If Hasbro wants to use our content, they have the right to dictate the terms of use, not us.
::::::::::Now, if we were writing entirely original work here that wasn't based on any existing property, ''then'' we could dictate terms, because Hasbro would be using something that we had full copyright control over. ''That's'' where forcing people into using the same Share-Alike license comes into play. But since Hasbro made the initial things we're deriving ''our'' work from, we have to play by their rules for their content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:21, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::But copyright-- even with derived works-- is ''not'' a black-and-white thing with one owner. If I made a "Freddy Krueger vs. Aliens" fanfilm, New Line Cinema can't claim 100% ownership over my work simply by virtue of the fact that they can't claim ownership over aliens. But they ''also'' can't claim ownership over my original character heroine. That belongs to '''me''', not New Line or Fox.
:::::::::::Either New Line or Fox could scuttle my project (if I was insane enough to try and distribuit it) or even keep me from putting it up on YouTube-- because the work cannot exist without their copyrighted characters.
:::::::::::But, even ''after'' that happened, there's nothing to prevent me from re-filming the movie as "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" with my fanchar heroine intact. Despite not having the right to use Fox and new Lines characters... the "value added" elements of my copyright-violating production '''remain my property'''.
:::::::::::And your failure to understand that is what's keeping you fron understanding the implications of SA3.
:::::::::::I freely ''admit'' they're largely '''abstract''' implications, because no one of us or hasbro actually ''cares''... but I also think that this licensing switchover is being pushed by a group with an agenda in mind that boils down to ''"get a lot of people (mainly Wikipedia) to switch their licensing, and watch legal havoc that ensues after a couple years as unforeseen implications start fucking up the copyright of books, TV episodes and movies, making their copyright status so murky, debatable and indeterminate that they essentially become legally piratable."'' and while GFDL might have some of those same problems, '''it''' isn't the license they're urging people to switch to.
:::::::::::So if both licenses are '''equally bad''', I'd much rather stick with the one we currently have rather than switch to the one that's probably going to be challenged in the supreme court 5 years from now.
:::::::::::Or at the ''very'' least have a conversation where the burden is on CC-BY-SA3 to show some ''benefit'' to us for switching, and not on me to prove GFDL is better. Why is our action simply being ''taken for granted'' here? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Well, I understand how ''copyright'' actually works, because I've seen people have to deal with it. I don't understand your comment on the whole deal, no, because it makes no sense.
::::::::::::It's true that if Hasbro objects to our wiki writing about Transformers we could technically re-write it to refer to something similar but different enough to avoid Hasbro's copyright. However, unlike your "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" example, our doing that would be useless. In this case, it's not our value-added elements that make the wiki useful, it's the fact that the wiki is about Transformers. Take away the "about Transformers" part, and our wiki becomes pointless. Hasbro's copyright ''is'' the intrinsic value of this wiki.
::::::::::::So yes, it is an abstract implication, but it's not because nobody cares.
::::::::::::As for why switch, it basically boils down to: if we are compliant with the GDFL, then switching to the CC-BY-SA means we have the same restrictions, ''and'' will also have our info be incompatible for usage with anyone who stays on the GDFL, and we'll be able to require attribution. Basically, it gives us some benefits above the existing GDFL's benefits, without adding or removing any restrictions.
::::::::::::If we're ''not'' compliant with the GDFL due to Hasbro's copyright claims, then it turns out we're not bound by the GDFL anyway, because we never had the legal right to claim that license on our work. In which case, again, we get to ignore all this and switch to whatever license someplace like Memory Alpha has.
::::::::::::But in either case, switching gives us benefits over the current GDFL. So it really is on you to prove why staying with the GDFL is better, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:31, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Whaaat? No, Derik's right. Windmills and copyright do not work that way. J. K. Rowling does not have the right to re-publish Dumbledore/Grindelwald Harry Potter [[fanfic]]. Original owners have the right to stop distribution of unauthorized derivatives, but they don't have the right to anything not already created by themselves. (So that would mean yes, ironically, fanfiction authors could C&D original authors infringing on the fanfiction's copyrights. But somehow I think they would restrain themselves.) 
And if we're violating the GFDL by using it to document Transformers, we aren't then "not bound;" because that would mean our existence is illegal, and we don't get to throw up our hands and say "Well we're already illegal, might as well be illegal in a totally different way!" So no, we can't just ignore everything and switch to any license but CC-By-SA-3.0. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 13:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:I know that Hasbro doesn't have the right to simply go ahead and publish our work without any agreement with us. But, based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner. We don't have the right to force Hasbro to use our work according to certain terms as long as it's a derivative of their work.
:As for our existence being illegal, well yeah, if you want to get technical, we're already as illegal as all other fanworks anyway. I don't see what the validity or otherwise of the contract the work was created under has to do with it, if the contract allows you to do that type of work.
:But essentially, the core of my confusion with Derik's concerns is: I don't see how he could be claiming we can ever force Hasbro to follow our terms on derivative works, when our work is already a derivative of Hasbro's work, and thus we already have to follow Hasbro's terms on derivative work. I mean, it's not that his concerns don't make sense to me from a general perspective. It's that they only make sense to me if we're the originator on top of the derivative work chain, which isn't the case here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:34, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::''based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner.''
::They have the right to threaten or strongarm someone, and the person they're threatening has the right to cave. But they have no ability to "make you relinquish your rights."
::The idea that New Line owns ''everything'' in any work I created means that they'd be claiming ownership not just of my Mary Sue, but also of Fox's Aliens. So that's clearly not true on the face of it. There is a completely unprooven legal theory that a copyright owner could actually ''own'' all the value-added additions made to a derived work... but it has '''literally''' never been tested (because Paramount has no desire to own a lot of Kirk/Spock bondage fics) and there is a strong suspicion that if it ever ''went'' to trial, the entire concept would be shot down.
::Regardless-- you're '''again''' arguing "my experience," and that's the ''fundamental'' source of the musunderstanding here. You're talking about how the law is actually '''implemented'''. I'm talking about what the law '''is'''. In '''your experience''', no one cares if you go through a red light if there's no one around. But I'm telling you it's '''still illegal'''.
::And since the ''kind'' of illegal we're talking about can have a slow corrosive effect on Hasbro's copyrights, that abstract legality could come back to bite us ''and'' Hasbro in the ass. So I'd like to have a real, ''actual'' discussion about this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:54, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Um, the entire ''point'' of copyright is that you have control over how your copyrighted work is used. If you create something using copyrighted work, then the copyright holder very much has control over what you do with it, because you're using their copyrights. Otherwise, why have copyright to begin with?
:::Now, if you remove the copyrighted material from your work, ''then'', yes, the copyright holder indeed has no control over your work, because it has no copyrighted material. Problem is that, while that might help out a fancreator if they can change their work into something original, it does us no good, because the entire point of our wiki is that it's about Transformers specifically. We could technically rewrite it to not be about Transformers, but that would just defeat the point.
:::My ''experience'' is that fanworks are always illegal, it's just that most of the time companies turn their head because usually it nets them more goodwill and publicity than anything the fanwork is taking away from them. But it's within a company's rights to turn around and tell you to either take your fanwork down, change it so it no longer contains their copyrights, or obtain a waiver from them/sign over your rights to continue displaying it.
:::Basically, the reason this is weird is because, you seem like you're saying that we can tell people who create derivative work based from our work how to use it, yet also saying that Hasbro doesn't have the same right to tell us how to use the derivative work we created from their work. Why would we have certain copyright rights, yet Hasbro not have those same rights? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:28, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Ehh, you know what, this is all getting way, way off track. The only real question worth considering that's been raised with all this is whether we had a right to claim our work fits under the GDFL to begin with. If we did, then switching makes sense. If we didn't, then the contract is technically void/annulled, and we need to switch to some new license regardless. Either way, staying with the GDFL itself seems pointless to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:19, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

:I don't trust that table. I dont' feel informed after viewing it, I feel brushed off.
:I think I need to re-read me the full GFDL to do a proper comparison.
:<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I was hoping I wouldn't have to read this thing again. Last time I had drugs to make it better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:20, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, so from what you're saying, the problem with Creative Commons is that... by jumping on the CC bandwagon we might become part of a bigger target in the culture wars or otherwise pull Hasbro into the line of fire, because a CC-licensed thing is more likely to get its day in court someday, because it's popular. Whereas the GFDL, with which we shall stay for ever and ever, will safely gather dust in the FSF's basement for the next hundred years where the light of legal precedent can never touch it.

And also a problem is if Hasbro or its licensees try to reuse our content and unwittingly license their own work under Creative Commons. Honestly, if they make a mistake like that... it's their mistake. It's no different from plagiarizing a random Transformers blog. It shouldn't happen, and it's not our responsibility if someone, somewhere might forget to do due diligence in a hypothetical future. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 21:33, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

===Oh, hey there===
[[Image:Meta-Wikiaccbysa.jpg|thumb|right|250px|]]
Look who else switched to CC-BY-SA. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:20, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Pfft. We shouldn't not switch just because Wikia is.
:I finished auditing the fine print of both licenses last night. (Whoever said the CC one is easier to read: Lies.) I need to digest 'em... I think the GFDL is a better license for where we are ''now'', but CC-BY-SA includes a clause I was ''hoping'' would be in GFDL that might play into future legal wrangling. (Simply because-- it's a license intended to be used by artists, and it doesn't handle our copyright situation well any more than GFDL does.)
:Regardless which one we pick, I think TFWiki needs to do ''something'' unique to better position ourselves, legally. I'm still ruminating what that might be. (Fortunately, we've got time yet.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:41, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::FWIW, I got a reply from the GNU folks, and the CC-BY-SA3 is indeed the only license we can switch to under this particular allowance. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:58, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, I got that. They had to amend the GFDL to even make that possible. I don't think we can even make it CC-BY-SA3-NC.
:::So if we ''do'' intend to wriggle around it somehow, it will probably require some vigorous legal calisthenics. (Fortunately legalese doesn't intimidate me.)
:::I just haven't figured out which license is a better starting point for those calisthenics yet. Maybe I'll blog about the subject to get my thoughts straight. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:34, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The full reply, if it helps:
:::::Unfortunately, the GFDL 1.3 (which enables the relicensing) specifically lists CC-BY-SA3 as the license that a wiki can migrate to, and so that is the only license available under this relicensing provision.

:::::In addition, a non-commercial license is not really a free license, instead it is considered semi-free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#semi-freeSoftware). The GFDL (as well as all GNU licenses) permits commercial use and distribution. While I understand your concerns, being able to use and distribute a work for any purpose, even a commercial purpose, is a part of the freedom that we work towards protecting here at the FSF. Thank you once again for your interest, and good luck with your project.}}
::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:46, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Right, any gymnastics would have to take place outside of this licensing provision, which we're not allowed to do.
:::::(Law can be wonderfully fun when you see it as the illusionary cultural construct-- like a monster in a fairy tale whose ''terms'' must be met, but is stupid and easily tricked by turning its words against it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:15, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You see, this is exactly the kind of granola-crunching BS that I'm worried about. "Woo, look at us! We're so clever, Information Wants To Be Free, Fight The Power!" Er, no. Information wants nothing. It's data. It's a thing, an inanimate pile of electron states jumbled up into a system which we can comprehend. We can claim that we Mean No Harm, that we're a Free Information Repository For All Things Transformers, but in the end, we have screencaps, quotes, bios, comic summaries, and roughly 25 years worth of history all crammed into this site. If Hasbro wanted to, they could shut us down '''right now''' just by scaring us with enough of a nasty C&D. I don't exactly see us armed with a high-powered law firm, for one, and second, unless someone in this thread *coughDerikcough* wants to produce a JD and back his comments with '''actual legal expertise,''' we're merely guessing as to what we can and can't get away with. On top of all of that, flaunting what we can theoretically get away with on a public web page with an ideally-infinite revision history means that you've just peed in the swimming pool that is the Internet. Perhaps we can make this all easier by just charging for access, thumbing our noses at the law, and even hosting a torrent of the movie, just to make damned sure that we get dragged into court? Smartassery + Law is a combination best left to those who have studied the practice of law. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Your sarcastiggestion seems like the opposite of what's going on, if the goal's more to "get away with" adding ''more'' pro-Hasbro restrictions to ourselves/the content. And how does their granola-crunching email impact anything? That's them. Not us.
::::::Anyway, I think there's one other plus point to a switch; the CC licenses get updated at a reasonable rate. There's a chance the folks in charge will listen to concerns about fanwork and adopt language into version 4.0 or 5.0 to fit it better-- they seem to [http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/5908 solicit feedback] like that. There's not much of a chance of our use case being relevant to version 2.0 of a license intended for software documentation... ---[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

===Going back to the well===
Alright, in my mind we need to re-center this discussion. The first question is:
#'''Why did we originally want to re-license?'''

Which, scrolling up, seems to be "because it would provide a legal barrier to Wikia stealing what new content we've generated since the move." This, as also shown above, has become a moot point due to Wikia re-licensing in the ''exact same fashion''.

So, that particular aim coming to naught, we instead need to ask ''these'' two questions.
#'''Is there any remaining benefit to re-licensing?'''
#'''Does said benefit outweigh the hassle of doing it?'''

I look forward to answers to these.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:33, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

:So, uh... I've been drafting [http://deriksmith.livejournal.com/41337.html#cutid1 this blog entry about the switch] for about two weeks. It's not big on answers, but it provides a thorough comparison, and some worst-case-scenarios.
:I'm really not sure which license TFWiki ''should'' choose. After review, I think that the chances of the switch turning TFWii into a copyright-eroding-machine are minimal... if only because vast portions of CC-BY-SA3 are arguably invalid on TFWiki because the license was never intended for wikis, and certainly never intended for media-fandom wikis.
:I think we ''do'' need to figure out something that does properly address our status as a media-fandom wiki-- whether it's a legalistic (but non-binding) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_statement_(United_States) mission statement] that underlines how we believe this license to apply to our unique situation or something else.
:I'm leaning towards 'something else' or 'both,' but I'm a bit at a loss about which license is actually the better starting point for it. If CC-BY-SA3 is going to cause legal problems (and it '''will''') we need to do something that grounds it out and minimizes the hassle it poses to Hasbro.
:I've got some vague ideas about possible attacks... I'm gonna see if they work better for one license or the other as I develop 'em. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:07, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
::My thought was that, what Fleb said earlier makes sense about the Creative Commons people being more likely to listen to user comments about future updates. In contrast, the Free Software people seem pretty dead set on their licenses always providing completely free use, and don't care about accomodating copyrights. So even if the licenses are functionally similar now, the CC people might be willing to provide a more fitting alternative to switch to in the future, whereas the GDFL will not.
::In the meantime, an additional disclaimer might be wise, I agree. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:08, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
:::The GFDL doesn't recognize 'compatible licenses', which content can be freely ported to. CC-BY-SA3 does, at least insofar that it makes provision for their existence (whether or not any ''actually'' exist...? I have no idea.)
:::So it's at least ''possible'' that at some point in the future Creative Commons might come out with CC-BY-SA3-MMC (for wikis) or CC-BY-SA3-MMC-MF (addressing the problems specific to media-fandom wikis) and declare that they are compatible with CC-BY-SA3 and allow wikis to be relicensed over to that version if they meet the requirements.
:::Though a longshot, any legal 'relief' on that end seems much less likely to come from the FSF. (GFDL's governing body.) The relicensing amendment in GFDL 1.3 strikes me as their way of washing their hands of wikis. ''"You fit our license badly and we don't want to deal with you. Go bother [[Wikipedia:Lawrence Lessig|Larry]]."''
:::The ''fundamental'' problem is that CC-BY-SA3 and GFDL are both unsuited to wikis, so when they're ''applied'' to wikis, what they actually ''mean'' becomes fuzzy-- it's like [[Wikipedia:Marihuana Tax Act of 1937|using tarrif law to restrict the sale of marijuana]]. "Okay, we bent an existing law sideways to fit this under it... but now it's so warped that some of the fundamental assumptions of the original law don't apply in the new situation... so how are we going apply it?"
:::Since the "Copyright Meltdown" scenario described in my blog ''largely'' stems from the non-binding GUI imposing an expansive interpretation on derived works, a non-binding "Predacon Shell Program" (mission statement? Signing statement?) on our part could ''probably'' be said to override that. Acknowledging some of the intrinsic problems with mating the requirements of CC-BY-SA3 (mostly author credit) with the realities of how Wikis work and saying 'this is how we think we fulfill these requirements' ''could'' cover a most of the other problems. It'd basically be a published Opinion Draft-- not legally binding in itself any more than CC's GUI is (so we're not liable if we get it wrong somehow) but formal interpretation of how we think this license-- which is in many ways ''horribly'' unsuited for wikis-- applies to our circumstances and why.
:::Basically, we'd be CC-BY-SA3 with a signing statement. (There's no real reason you couldn't do the same with GFDL, but I think CC-BY-SA3's 'if any part is non-enfordcable' clause, as well as the fact it ''already'' uses a non-binding GUI makes CC more suited for this kind of 'soft interpretation.' GFDL is much more rigid by virtue of its narrow focus. ) Since signing statement's aren't ''laws'', just formalizations of an ''understanding how laws are executed'', It wouldn't violate GFDL 1.3's "You can port to CC-BY-SA3 '''only'''" thing-- we ''would'' be porting to CC-BY-SA3. We're not modifying the license in any way, if someone disagrees with our interpretation... they're pretty much free to ignore it.
:::It's [[Wikipedia:Cover_your_ass|CYA]]. If there's problems with CC-BY-SA3 later, it at least shows we ''tried'' to address them, and formalizing our own thinking on the subject to some degree insulates us from being victimized of someone with a more radical interpretation (no more legally binding than our own!) of how CC-BY-SA3 applies. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:27, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

===Seriously you guys . . .===
If Wikia wanted to copy your work, they could already do it, '''because you already put it under a free license'''. That was the deal - and it was a deal with everyone, not just with people you like. Yes, it means Hasbro ''could'' take your work and sell it, or Wikia ''could'' take your work and put ads on it, without any further notice. You already gave them a license to do it. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here. Be thankful it allowed ''you'' to take the content with you when you left.

There are two main reasons for switching to CC-BY-SA:
#CC-BY-SA makes it easier for reusers to make use of those rights. Specifically, you don't have to print out an entire copy of the GFDL and attach it to your work in order to legally reuse it, and that "human-readable summary" makes people a lot more comfortable than trying to parse the GFDL.
#Creative Commons licenses (and CC-BY-SA in particular) are more widely used than the GFDL. This is a side-effect of them being easier to understand. Because of this, there is more chance that people interested in using another person's work will have a compatible license. This works both ways - if this wiki wants to use CC-BY-SA text, it can't right now.

Neither changes the basic rights given: they both allow commercial use with the provision of attribution and the requirement for continued distribution under the license.

As a corollary of the second reason: If you ''don't'' switch to CC-BY-SA as your main license, content here will not be usable on Wikipedia, and you risk not being able to use their content in the future (because new work may not all be GFDL-licensed). I don't know how important this is for you, but that's how it is.

Wikimedia [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update engineered this switch] because it furthers their mission "to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally." Put simply, it's easier to disseminate free content with CC-BY-SA. The GFDL included measures that were fine for the intended purpose, but are cumbersome in an age where people may wish to use part of an individual page rather than a whole textbook.

There may be other restrictions on some uses of your work, such as trademark rights. These are unaffected by the license you choose, as both choices pertain only to the copyright in the work. With regards to concerns over use of Hasbro's material; if you were violating copyright with the GFDL, you will continue to do so under the CC-BY-SA. It can't give you the right to distribute their work under the license, nor is it more permissive in including sections of non-free content, or on disallowing commercial uses of the work. You cannot modify either license to do this, nor are GNU or Creative Commons likely to do so.

WikiFur [http://community.livejournal.com/wikifur/73467.html switched to CC-BY-SA] (while retaining GFDL as a secondary license) last month because it made sense for us. I think it makes sense for this wiki, too. You have other issues common to many fan sites that are not addressed by this license change, but that is not a reason for avoiding a switch; CC-BY-SA still provides benefits that the GFDL does not. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]] 10:55, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
:''If Wikia wanted to copy your work, they could already do it, '''because you already put it under a free license'''.''
:That's certainly true. Frankly I encourage them to do so-- Google has some notion of where new content showed up FIRST. If Wikia just bogarted our content, it'd almost certainly ''hurt'' their Google rating. That said, the admins on the Wikia Transformers wiki seem to have put their foot down and told users not to just port content from here, agreeing with our basic premise that the Wikia site needs to develop its own cultural identity if it ever hopes to prosper.
:And actually ''at the moment'' Wikia '''cannot''' copy our work (at least not any version of articles made after June 23) because they are a CC-BY-SA3 Massive Multiauthor Collaboration, and we are a GFDL MMC. The right to port our GFDL work to CC-BY-SA3 until August 1 does ''not'' lie with individual users (and cannot, as I understand it, be done piecemeal) it lies with the site operator. If we ultimately decided ''not'' to re-license, then any post-June-23rd article ports made to Wikia would be illegal-- because the content they were porting would ''never'' have been made available under CC-BY-SA3.
:''it's easier to disseminate free content with CC-BY-SA. The GFDL included measures that were fine for the intended purpose, but are cumbersome in an age where people may wish to use part of an individual page rather than a whole textbook.''
:But we wish to disseminate '''non-free''' content-- or at least a mix of free a non-free content. CC-BY-SA3 was intended for use by artists remixing one another's work freely... it doesn't address copyrighted or fair use content mixed in any more than GFDL did.
:And there's some debate whether or not we even intend to ''disseminate'' the content. Someone (Mcfeely?) raised a question about a hypothetical cell-phone app that would re-use our content. There's already [http://pda.wareseeker.com/HOBBIES/transformers-tech-spec-databases-4.7.zip/317886 a cell-phone app of Transformers tech-specs] that's a walking copyright violation, and we'd rather not draw negative attention from Hasbro if a similar infringing application was made from our content. Does Hasbro care about cell-phone apps? Not really, but [[Glu|Glu mobile]] who ''pays'' for an exclusive license to develop Transformers-related cell-phone content might. Those kind of competing unlicensed applications de-value their own license.
:I don't think there's a consensus about whether or not we want to even ''try'' to control that kind of thing... (or if we even can, legally) but it at least bears ''consideration''. TFWiki.net generally ''tries'' to respect Hasbro's business interests, but the degree to which we even ''want'' that to be a factor in this decision...? Unknown.
:And CC-BY-SA3 is no less cumbersome a fit for wikis than GFDL was-- it's just that CC-BY-SA3 includes an "if any part of this license proves invalid or unenforceable" clause that (arguably) relieves some of that tension.
:''if you were violating copyright with the GFDL, you will continue to do so under the CC-BY-SA''
:Yes, but GFDL at least had the excuse of being ''grandfathered'' stupidity-- the site was already licensed under GFDL when the current community took it over. Whatever we choose here becomes a ''conscious'' choice.
:And dual-licensing like WikiFur has is a possibility-- it certainly provides for maximum data portability. But is data portability our primary concern? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:31, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
::I don't think a conscious choice would have any more moral or legal weight than a conscious decision to do nothing would. We already have the dilemma, ignoring it would just be another way of choosing. Eh, dual-licensing would at least stop the deliberation from becoming moot in two weeks. It'd be like standing in two lines at the same time! --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 17:01, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

Key (disambiguation)

2009-07-13T22:06:32Z

Fleb:

The term '''Key''' refers to more than one object:

*The [[Key to Vector Sigma]], the object that activates [[Vector Sigma]] in the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[Continuity family]].
*For the multi-part episode that features this key:
**[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1]]
**[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2]]

*The [[Key to the Plasma Energy Chamber]], the object that unlocks the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] in the ''[[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]'' [[continuity family]].
*[[Isolator key]], a device that is capable of opening a [[Quadrant lock]] in the Generation 1 continuity family.
*[[The Key]], the 11th episode of ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''.
*The [[Master Key]] is what gives [[Mini-Con]]s full access to their powers as creations of the evil god, [[Unicron]] in the ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' portion of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].
*[[Cyber Planet Key|Cyber Planet Keys]], the cosmic technology found in the ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' portion of the Unicron Trilogy continuity family.
*Cyber Planet Keys (most often simply called "Keys") were included in later toylines containing ''Cybertron'' [[redeco]]s. There is presumably no in-fiction cosmic technology involved with these Keys.

*A nameless but powerful [[key]] held by [[Sari Sumdac]] in the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]]'' [[Continuity family]].

{{disambig}}

Simon Belmondo

2009-07-13T21:57:12Z

Fleb:

:''Simon Belmondo is a [[human]] from the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Dreammix Simon.jpg|thumb|This is somehow still more dignified than his portrayal in ''[[:wikipedia:Captain N: The Game Master|Captain N]]''.]]

The hero who prevented Count Dracula's resurrection in 1691, '''Simon Belmondo''' is a legendary monster-hunter. He attacks with the whip named "Vampire Killer" and by throwing gigantic crosses at people.

==Fiction==
===DreamMix TV World Fighters===
As part of [[DreamMix TV]]'s attempt to pull in more ratings, Simon was invited to battle bunches of other beings, including [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] on the television show ''[[World Fighters]]''. {{storylink|DreamMix TV World Fighters}}

==Note==
*[[wikia:c:Castlevania:Simon_Belmont|Simon Belmondo]], more commonly known in English as Simon Belmont, is from [[Konami]]'s [[wikia:c:Castlevania:Castlevania series|''Castlevania'' series]].
*[[EJ Su]] drew [[wikia:c:Castlevania:Castlevania: The Belmont Legacy|a comic]] about [[wikia:c:castlevania:Christopher Belmont|his great-grandfather]].

{{DEFAULTSORT:Belmondo, Simon}}
[[Category: External properties]]
[[Category: Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category: Humans]]
[[Category: Japanese-original characters]]
[[Category: Video game-only characters]]

Spike Witwicky (G1)

2009-07-09T00:59:13Z

Fleb: /* Generation 1 cartoon */ lost link

{{factions|{{factions/icons|custom=Symbol autobot reg.png|cLink=Honorary Autobot}}|autobot|autobotg2}}
{{cleanup}}
{{disambig2|the human that is friends with a whole mess of giant robots from Generation 1|the human who is deeply frightened by giant robots from ''Transformers Animated''|Spike Witwicky (Animated)}}

:''Spike [[Witwicky]] is an [[Autobot|Autobot]]-allied [[Human|human]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[Continuity family|continuity family]].''

[[Image:Spikewitwickyg1.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Wait till you see my sweet future jumpsuit!]]
'''Spike Witwicky''' is the oldest (and sometimes only) son of [[Sparkplug Witwicky|Sparkplug Witwicky]].

Spike, like most Witwickys, has a tendency to form close bonds to the Autobots and become one of their main human allies. 'Cause let's face it, there are advantages when your best friend is [[Bumblebee (G1)|a car]].

:''Malay-English dub name:'' '''Sparkle'''
:''Hungarian ''The Movie'' dub name'': '''Csuka''' ("Pike"), in other media, '''Spike'''.

==Fiction==
===American cartoon continuity===
====Generation 1 cartoon====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Corey Burton|Corey Burton]] (English), [[Show Hayami|Show Hayami]] → [[Masashi Ebara|Masashi Ebara]] (Japanese), [[Wolfgang Mascher|Wolfgang Mascher]] (German; Generation 1), [[Dirk Meyer|Dirk Meyer]] (German; ''Generation 2''), [[Crock Krumbiegel|Crock Krumbiegel]] (German; ''The Movie'')
[[Image:Spike SemiNude.jpg|left|150px|thumb|We have hereby filled our beefcake quota for this Wiki. Move along.]]

[[Image:Bumblebeepinkinterior.jpg|right|150px|thumb|It's the pink interior that makes Spike such a [[Ladiesman217|Ladiesman]].]]

In 1984, Spike was a 14-year-old adolescent working with his father [[Sparkplug Witwicky|Sparkplug]] on an oil rig when the Decepticons attacked. After the Autobots rescued them, they volunteered to become their native guides to planet [[Earth]]. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 1}}

{{charstubfiction}}

{{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 2}} {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 3}}

Spike had many adventures with the Autobots, taking part in just about everything they did on Earth for at least the next few years. He became especially close friends with the little Autobot Bumblebee.

{{storylink|Transport to Oblivion}} {{storylink|Roll for It}} {{storylink|Divide and Conquer}} {{storylink|Fire in the Sky}} {{storylink|S.O.S. Dinobots}} {{storylink|Fire on the Mountain}} {{storylink|War of the Dinobots}} {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 1}} {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 2}} {{storylink|The Ultimate Doom, Part 3}} {{storylink|A Plague of Insecticons}} {{storylink|Heavy Metal War}}

At one point, however, Spike was injured in a Decepticon attack, and his mind was transferred to the unstable [[Autobot X|Autobot X]]. The process began to play havoc with Spike's mind, allowing [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] to manipulate him into attacking [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and the Autobots. Only after nearly killing his father did Spike realize that he was being duped. His mind was subsequently transferred back into his body. {{storylink|Autobot Spike}}

{{storylink|City of Steel}} {{storylink|Attack of the Autobots}}

In the course of his adventures with the Autobots, he met [[Carly]], an impetuous prodigy and [[MIT]] graduate. Despite being (much) smarter and hotter than him, Carly displayed a noticeable affection for the somewhat-dim Spike. {{storylink|The Immobilizer}} They would eventually mate and produce [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|offspring]].

{{storylink|The Autobot Run}} {{storylink|Atlantis, Arise!}} {{storylink|Day of the Machines}} {{storylink|Enter the Nightbird}} {{storylink|A Prime Problem}} {{storylink|The Insecticon Syndrome}} {{storylink|Dinobot Island, Part 1}} {{storylink|Dinobot Island, Part 2}} {{storylink|The Master Builders}} {{storylink|Megatron's Master Plan, Part 1}} {{storylink|Megatron's Master Plan, Part 2}} {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1}} {{storylink|Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2}} {{storylink|Blaster Blues}} {{storylink|A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court}} {{storylink|Child's Play (episode)|Child's Play}} {{storylink|Quest for Survival}} {{storylink|Triple Takeover}} {{storylink|The Girl Who Loved Powerglide}} {{storylink|Hoist Goes Hollywood}} {{storylink|Cosmic Rust (episode)|Cosmic Rust}} {{storylink|The Revenge of Bruticus}} {{storylink|Masquerade}}

[[Image:Spike ospit.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Oh, bother. How do you propose we solve our predicament at this moment?]]

As an adult in the distant year 2005, Spike was stationed with Bumblebee on one of the Autobots' secret moonbases. He had a bit of a potty-mouth about being eaten by the monster-planet [[Unicron|Unicron]], but that would make anyone pissed. He was saved from the belly of Unicron by his aforementioned offspring. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} Later, when the Autobots had regained control of the planet, he became Earth's ambassador...or something. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 1}}

As an adult, Spike was also a lot less helpless. He once held a [[Quintesson|Quintesson]] hostage. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 2}}

{{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 3}} {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}} {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5}}

[[Image:SpikeHeadmasterRebirth1.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Spike is BACK! ...and BLACK!]]
{{storylink|Dark Awakening}} {{storylink|Surprise Party}} {{storylink|Madman's Paradise}} {{storylink|Nightmare Planet}} {{storylink|Ghost in the Machine}} {{storylink|The Quintesson Journal}} {{storylink|The Ultimate Weapon}}

Marooned on the distant planet [[Nebulos|Nebulos]] he became a [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster partner]] to [[Cerebros (G1)|Cerebros]] and singlehandedly rebuilt an ancient city into [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|a giant transformer]]. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 1}} {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 2}} {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 3}}

He polished up good.
{{-}}

===Madman ''The Transformers'' comic===
[[Image:Madman comic Spike AutobotCity.jpg|thumb|left|200px|]]
In the year 2001, Spike Witwicky was overseeing the construction of [[Autobot City]] when his friend [[Hot Rod]] complained about the fact he was stuck on guard duty while the rest of the Autobots forces were fighting a rearguard action during the evacuation of Cybertron. Spike tries to cheer him up, assuring the young Autobot that his time is coming, and for now, just to enjoy the view of the future Autobot City. While Hot Rod rambled on about Optimus Prime bravely fighting off Decepticons single-handedly, Spike spotted [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] and his minions up to no-good on the dig site, and Hot Rod sprang into action. The young Autobot prevented the Decepticons from stealing the [[Autobot Matrix of Leadership]], and during the struggle, the Autobot artifact spoke to him with Spike's own words of encouragement. {{Storylink|The Transformers (Madman)}}

{{-}}

===Japanese cartoon continuity===
====Scramble City OVA====
{{note|The events of the Japanese-exclusive [[Scramble City]] OVA take place between the second season of the US television series and ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.}}

Spike can be seen working with Carly, [[Sparkplug Witwicky|his father]] and [[Chip Chase|Chip]] on [[Autobot City|Autobot City]]. {{storylink|Scramble City}}

====''The Headmasters'' cartoon====
:''Voice actor:''

{{charstubfiction}}

====''The Headmasters'' comic====
{{charstubfiction}}

===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Generation 1====
{{noteukonly}}

Spike Witwicky was away at college for the first few years of the Autobot/Decepticon war on Earth until he returned home to find his younger brother [[Buster Witwicky|Buster]] kidnapped by the Decepticons. Spike soon became the binary-bond partner to the [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]], after Fortress Maximus' first partner, [[Galen|Galen]], was killed in a battle with the Decepticon [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. {{storylink|Trial by Fire!}}

Thereafter he struggled with balancing his responsibilities to his family with those to the Autobots. Once Buster was rescued, and with [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] returned to life to take his place as Autobot leader, Spike went into retirement, mothballing poor Max. This retirement wouldn't last however as it was interrupted, first by a pair of Decepticon [[Pretender|Pretenders]], {{storylink|The Man in the Machine!}} then by the crash of the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] and a raving [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]. {{storylink|The Last Autobot?}} Through the course of these conflicts Spike learned that the [[Binary bonding|binary bonding]] he had undergone with Maximus was far deeper and more permanent than he'd believed. Fortress Maximus was always there with him in his head, always a part of him. After his battle with Galvatron he seemed to have made peace with his connection to Fortress Maximus and his role as (perhaps) the last Autobot protector of Earth.

[[Image:Spikewitwicky2009.jpg|right|150px|thumb|In 2009, jheri curls return with a vengeance. Just you wait.]]

[[Image:Spikewitwickytimewars.jpg|left|150px|thumb|White jumpsuits were so 2006.]]

''In an alternate timeline in the year 2009, Decepticons had built a machine to destroy Earth while a space-time anomaly was eating entire planets. After [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] orchestrated a plan to travel twenty years back in time to the source of the anomaly, Spike Witwicky and his son Daniel accused Rodimus of shirking his responsibilities towards Earth and guilted Rodimus into allotting more troops to help destroy the Decepticons' machine. {{storylink|Time Wars}}''

In another alternate timeline in the year 2009, Spike Witwicky was part of a very small Autobot/human resistance movement in a world where [[Galvatron II|Galvatron II]]'s Decepticons controlled North America. The handful of Autobots who remained alive despaired and were on the cusp of giving up, but Spike and [[Lisa|Lisa]] (who shared growing feelings for each other) guilted them into one last suicidal attack on Decepticon headquarters in New York before the rest of the world could unleash a nuclear holocaust onto America at midnight. Though there were several casualties, Spike managed to hoist an American flag on the Decepticon stronghold on live television, a symbolic measure which prompted the end of the planned nuclear strike. Before Galvatron II could respond, the Decepticon despot was abducted by [[Hook, Line, and Sinker|Hook, Line, and Sinker]] into another timeline. {{storylink|Rhythms of Darkness!}}

====''Generation 2''====
[[Image:Spikewitwickyg2.jpg|left|100px|thumb|Now the jumpsuit's in BROWN?]]
Spike followed up on the now [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]-controlled Ark, which he'd apparently stuffed Fortress Maximus aboard and then abandoned after his battle with Galvatron (great job protecting Earth there, "Last Autobot").

He reunited with Max and together they . . . um, sort of stopped Megatron (well, delayed him a little . . . maybe) by throwing themselves into the ship's [[Antimatter|antimatter]] core.

He blowed up '''real''' good. {{storylink|All or Nothing!}}
{{-}}

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
It's to be assumed that Spike and his father, Sparkplug, met the Autobots early on in their time on Earth (in a similar fashion as Spike and Sparkplug did in the cartoon, or Buster and Sparkplug did in the Marvel Comics). Spike definitely had a younger brother named Buster (like in the Marvel comics), yet it was Spike who formed a close friendship with Bumblebee (like in the cartoon, rather than missing out on the first few years of the Witwicky family's interaction with the Transformers while engaging in drinking orgies at college, like he did in the Marvel comics). The exact details of the Witwickys' early years as the Autobots' human associates are therefore not known.

Somewhere in the time after 1984, Spike married Carly, who then gave birth to Spike's son, Daniel. After the explosion of the ''[[Ark II|Ark II]]'' in 1999, which caused the death of Spike's father Sparkplug, Spike tried to leave his involvement with the Transformers behind and settled down with his wife and son in Cleveland, Ohio, trying to live a new life as a normal family. The newfound peace wouldn't last for long, though, as Spike was soon recruited by a shady military official named [[Robert Hallo|General Hallo]] seeking his help in reviving Optimus Prime, whose body his men had recently found in the Arctic. Spike, who had been entrusted by Prime with a fragment of the Matrix, used that fragment to bring Prime back to life. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 1|Prime Directive # 1}} {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 2|Prime Directive #2}}

Prime subsequently used the Matrix to revive and assemble a group of his Autobots, which he would then lead against Megatron's Decepticons. Meanwhile, Spike was imprisoned by General Hallo, who had double motives behind reviving the Autobots and even tried to kill them by bombing them. With the help of [[Larry|Larry, the World's Most Resourceful Janitor]], Spike was able to escape his cell and uncover Hallo's sinister schemes, but not in time to stop him from launching a nuclear strike against the Autobots which was ultimately averted when [[Superion (G1)|Superion]] sacrificed his life in order to make it detonate before it could reach its target. {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 5|Prime Directive #5}} {{storylink|Prime Directive issue 6|Prime Directive #6}}

Following these events, Spike once again returned to his family and tried to leave his past with the Transformers behind. A few months later, though, his old friend Bumblebee, who had just decided to quit the Autobot army following a fierce battle against [[Sunstorm (G1)|Sunstorm]], showed up by his house. Spike, frustrated that the Autobots refused to leave him alone, hurled a few nasty insults against his old buddy before changing his mind and joining him on a men's night out in the city, where they stopped a mugging. {{storylink|Lost and Found (issue)|Lost and Found}} The follow-up scene of Carly shouting at Spike singing drinking songs with Bumblebee was never published due to the untimely faltering of Dreamwave. It also means we will never know if Spike and Bumblebee formed a crime fighting duo.

===''G.I. Joe vs the Transformers''===
In response to the forming of the terrorist organization [[Cobra|Cobra]] and its commandeered Transformers, the United States government assembled a strike team dubbed [[G.I. Joe|G.I. Joe]]. Spike Witwicky (codename Spike) was listed on the roster, but was never seen. {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 2|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers #2}}

===IDW comics continuity===
[[Image:Spikewitwickybuttonflies.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Hey, remember above, when we said we filled the beefcake quota for the wiki? We lied!]]In the wake of the Decepticons' devastating attack on Earth, Commander Spike Witwicky met his dad, Colonel "Sparkplug" Witwicky, inside a secret bunker where the remnants of the United States military had gathered to mount a desperate counteroffensive. Regrettably, Sparkplug had selected Spike for a mission to assassinate the leader of the Decepticons, Megatron, even though he feared his son would not make it back. It was a suicide mission, but Spike was the most qualified. Spike accepted, despite the consequences, but ignored his father's pleas for him to call his worried mother first.

During the night, he and a team snuck into [[New York City]] by boat, but they were discovered by [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]. With one dive, the boat and its occupants were dashed to bits under the water, and Spike's signal was destroyed. Learning his son was dead, Sparkplug, in shock, believed it was he who had not only sent his son to die, but had inspired Spike to join the military in the first place. But unknown to Sparkplug, his son surfaced on the shore of New York, perfectly alive... {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 5}}

Stealing new pants from an abandoned [[Gloomindales]], Spike ran into the leaders of the underground human resistance movement, who were looking for supplies. Spike took [[Bridge]] and [[Sarah]] into an abandoned office building to discuss gathering the resistance and assassinating Megatron. But first, Spike took them into a disguised military facility where he retrieved a weapon created from studying [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]'s gun arm. Their quick escape was cut short, since [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] was causing a ruckus outside. Telling the others to run for cover, Spike ducked into a building and then reappeared when he drove a motorcycle through an upstairs window, firing a small pistol. This distracted Rumble long enough for [[Charles]] to shoot him right in the face. Rumble's defeat was followed by a overcoming sonic screech, and as Soundwave arrived to sadly take Rumble's body away, it seemed the city's electronic blackout was over. Phones were working again, and so Spike called his father. He learned that not only that his father thought he was dead, but that there was nothing they could do to prevent other nations from unleashing a nuclear onslaught across North America. {{storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 9}}

==Toys==
===Generation 1===
[[Image:Spikeheadmastertoy.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Finally, your favorite Transformers character!]]
* '''Fortress Maximus with Spike''' (Headmaster, 1987)

:Spike was a [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] figure who came with [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]]. Gray and blue, he transformed into [[Cerebros (G1)|Cerebros]]' head, who then in turn became Fortress Maximus' head. Although the on-package [[Bio|bio]] referred to 'the Nebulan leader, Spike', most assume it was supposed to represent the character from TV, making this the first Transformers toy of an Earth human.

:This toy was [[Repurposing|repurposed]] as [[Galen]], and [[Redeco|redecoed]] as [[Gran]], ''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Cerebros (RID)|Cerebros]] and ''[[Robot Masters]]'' [[Master (RM)|Master]].

{{-}}

==Merchandise==
===Super Collection Figure===
*'''Bumble and Spike''' (Act 3, 2001)
**''Japanese ID Number'': '''5''' (painted) '''6''' (clear)

[[Image:SCF-Bumblebee-Spike.JPG|right|200px|thumb|Spike says "How."]]
:Spike and [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] were sold together as a single PVC in ''Act 3'' of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s [[Super Collection Figure|Super Collection Figure]] series. They were [[Blindpacked|blindpacked]], with painted and clear variations sold in equal quantities. In [[Hasbro|Hasbro]]'s markets, they were sold together on a blister card as the "Autobot Espionage Team". (At this point, Hasbro did not have the trademark rights to Bumblebee's name.) In both Japan and the West, the two came packaged with [[Heroes of Cybertron|HOC]] Fortress Maximus' right leg.

{{-}}

==Notes==
*Spike and Buster were both derived from the same "young male human friend" character in early backstory material. For more on the name variation see [[Butch Witwicky|Butch Witwicky]].
*[[:Image:Spikecarlydanielanimated.jpg|Cameos of the Witwicky family]] appear in the [[Transform and Roll Out!|pilot movie]] of ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]''. In "[[Garbage In, Garbage Out|Garbage In, Garbage Out]]", [[Spike Witwicky (Animated)|he]] and [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|Carly]] refer to each other by name, and she is about to have another baby. [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] rushes them both around Detroit, trying to find a "Hoss-spit-all", but they are quickly abandoned by the plot before the outcome of the childbirth can be resolved.

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1987/Autobot/FortressMaximus/fortressmaximus.htm Fortress Maximus (with Spike) at TFU.info]
*[http://www.ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Fortress_Maximus Fortress Maximus's ''Universe'' profile (with Spike) at NFTA.net]
{{charstub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Witwicky, Spike (G1)}}
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:G.I. Joe]]
[[Category:Generation 1 characters]]
[[Category:Generation 2 characters]]
[[Category:Headmasters]]
[[Category:Headmasters characters]]
[[Category:Witwicky family|Spike Witwicky (G1)]]

Where Is Thy Sting?

2009-07-09T00:12:54Z

Fleb: /* Synopsis */

{{episode|
|series=Anitoon
|image=WhereIsThySting-reflectingface.jpg
|caption=Get out of my head!
|ep=34
|title="Where Is Thy Sting?"
|airdate=[[March 28]], 2009
|written by=[[Todd Casey]]
|directed by=[[Kalvin Lee]] [[Shigeharu Takahashi]]
|animation studio=[[Mook]]
}}

'''A crazed Wasp finds his way to Earth to exact his revenge on Bumblebee... but he doesn't count on the Elite Guard following him.'''

==Synopsis==
Drawing closer to [[Earth]] in their pursuit of the presumed traitor [[Wasp]], [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] and [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] are at their stations on the bridge of the [[Elite Guard]]'s ship when [[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm Prime]] contacts them and demands to know what they are doing in Earth Sector. [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] joins the conference call to apologize for not letting Longarm know of the situation, pointing out that they couldn't risk tipping off Wasp when he stands poised to lead them to his Decepticon contact on the planet. Except, as Jazz points out, Wasp isn't headed for the [[Decepticon]]s... he's making a <s>bee</s>waspline for the [[Autobot]]s' base!

In the Autobots' headquarters, [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] is immersed in a game of ''[[Ninja Gladiator]]'' when [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] shuts the television off and reprimands Bumblebee for neglecting his monitor duty. In mid-argument, the base computers detect a [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] signal nearby, but no other information can be obtained due to interference caused by recent torrential rain. Prime and the other Autobots thus have to depart to investigate firsthand. Bumblebee, of course, returns to playing his video game.

The Elite Guard ship touches down in Detroit, and Sentinel and Jazz disembark. Sentinel is immediately disgusted by the notion of liquid falling from the sky, and he finds himself all but incapable of driving on the slick roads, but Jazz just rolls with it.

[[Image:WhereIsThySting-Bumblebeecreepilydefeated.jpg|left|thumb|200px|We enjoyed that together.]]
Back at the base, Bumblebee continues playing games until the base is suddenly plunged into darkness. As the red emergency lights come on, Bumblebee finds himself staring into the all-too-familiar face of Wasp, now sporting an Earth-mode body styled after Bumblebee's own. Bumblebee tries to explain that they had both been set up by Longarm, but the insane Wasp doesn't care. He downs Bumblebee with a blast of his stingers and takes off his own helmet, revealing a wound on the top of his head. Just before passing out, Bumblebee sees Wasp standing over him, holding a strange gun fitted with a glowing green canister and vowing to make Bumblebee lose everything, just like he did...

A little later, Bumblebee awakens to find the other Autobots all staring down at him, including...himself? Looking down at himself, Bumblebee is horrified to discover that Wasp has repainted his armor, swapped their helmets, and exchanged their vocal synthesizers, making each a dead ringer for the other. As Wasp stands there, with Bumblebee's [[battle mask]] "stuck" up, Bumblebee attempts to convince the other Autobots that he is himself, but they aren't sold. When [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] attempts to [[stasis cuffs|stasis cuff]] him, Bumblebee is forced to shoot out the lights and make a break for it. He zooms out of the plant, right past Sentinel Prime and Jazz, who intercept Prime and the other Autobots when they try to pursue him. Sentinel demands to know why Optimus's Autobots haven't checked in in so long, but when Optimus tries to explain, Sentinel refuses to listen, informing them he is here to bring in Wasp...who, Optimus points out, just drove right past him. Sentinel ignores Optimus when he tries to tell him that Longarm is the real traitor, and departs immediately to hunt down "Wasp". Optimus instructs his Autobots to locate Wasp first, and they head out to search, while the true Wasp tells them he will stay behind in case Bumblebee comes back.

On Cybertron, Shockwave desperately makes another attempt to contact the missing [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]]. He transmits a message to him alerting him to the direness of the situation, adding that Shockwave is about to take matters into his own hands...

[[Image:WhereIsThySting-obligatorymisunderstanding.jpg|right|thumb|200px|I has logos-Autobot on my shoulders, da?]]
Back on Earth, Optimus and Ratchet are discussing how odd "Bumblebee" has been behaving when two jets suddenly come roaring by overhead. Knowing that no organic could pilot a plane the way these two crafts fly, the two Autobots assume they are dealing with Decepticons and zoom after them in hot pursuit. The two jets soon track down "Wasp", who is desperately attempting to rub his green paint off with a discarded couch cushion, and transform to robot mode to attack him with blasts of flame and roaring hurricane winds. Ratchet and Optimus arrive to hold off these apparent Decepticons, who reveal a remarkable power to combine into [[Safeguard (Animated)|one mighty robot]], but before the fighting can get too intense, Sentinel and Jazz arrive to reveal that these two are, in fact, Autobots! Sentinel introduces [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]], Elite Guard warriors created using specs from [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]], and orders the duo to resume their mission.

In the Autobots' base, Wasp is playing (and losing) ''Ninja Gladiator'', and he decides that he could get used to being Bumblebee. In order to complete the illusion, Wasp scans the Autobots' computer files, so that he can learn everything about Bumblebee and better pass himself off as his old rival.

[[Image:WhereIsThySting-hotdogbot.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Bumblebee needs a lesson in [[kitbashing]].]]
Racing through the city streets, Bumblebee discovers a hot dog cart and desperate tries slathering his armor in mustard to make him look more like himself. He is caught in the act by [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] and [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]], but he is finally able to convince Bulkhead of his true identity when he tells him something only he could know: namely, that he took the blame for Bulkhead knocking a tower over on Sentinel Prime at [[Autobot boot camp|boot camp]]. Jetfire and Jetstorm arrive just in time to witness this happy scene, but get the wrong end of the stick and assume that Bulkhead and Prowl are traitors as well! The twins report this to Sentinel, and he, Optimus, Jazz and Ratchet head for their position, with Sentinel obstinately refusing to listen to Optimus's attempts to explain the numerous misunderstandings that have happened. When everyone reunites, Bulkhead explains that Bumblebee is definitely Bumblebee, and Optimus orders everyone back to the plant to straighten everything out.

[[Image:WhereIsThySting-UltraMagnusDamaged.jpg|thumb|right|200px|If anyone inserts a "He's been dealt with" caption here, so help us...]]
A little later, back at the plant, Wasp cheerily denies Bumblebee's accusations, using the information he has gleaned from the Autobots' files to "prove" he is who he claims. When interrogation yields no results, Bulkhead comes up with the best way to figure out who's who: a versus match on ''Ninja Gladiator''! Before the game even starts, Wasp chokes and grabs Bumblebee, holding his stinger to 'Bee's neck. Wasp insists that he was always a good bot, but Bulkhead says that isn't true; he might not be a traitor, but he was always mean to Bulkhead and Bumblebee and was hardly good. Wasp blasts out the lights to cover his escape, and when the emergency lights kick in, both Wasp and Bumblebee are gone. The Autobots head outside, where they spot what looks like Bumblebee lying on the ground. Bulkhead assumes it is Wasp and leaps upon the prone figure, pummeling him and ripping off his helmet...only to find out that it really is Bumblebee underneath. Prowl examines Bumblebee's helmet and discovers that their colors were switched so quickly because Wasp had hit him with an [[electronic paint job]] that he could turn off with the press of a button. As things begin to calm down, the truth of the whole matter hits Jazz—if Wasp really was innocent, that means that Longarm Prime really is a Decepticon spy!

Sometime later, on Cybertron, [[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] is searching for Longarm in order to apprehend him. Entering the council chamber, Ironhide is horrified to discover the mangled, barely-alive body of Ultra Magnus. He asks the Supreme Commander where [[Magnus Hammer|his hammer]] is and who was responsible. Before collapsing, Ultra Magnus manages to choke out, "Shock...wave..."

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters

|c1=
*[[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] (1)
*[[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] (2)
*[[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] (4)
*[[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] (5)
*[[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] (6)
*[[Wasp]] (7)
*[[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] (8)
*[[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] (9)
*[[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] (10)
*[[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] (11)
*[[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] (12)
*[[Safeguard (Animated)|Safeguard]] (13)
*[[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] (14)

|c2=
*[[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave/Longarm Prime]] (3)
|}}

==Quotes==
"Besides, if I'm playing ''Ninja Gladiator'', I'm at least getting valuable combat training." 
:—'''Bumblebee''' gives justification for slacking off.

"Liquid falling from the sky? What is ''wrong'' with this planet?!" 
"Crazy! It's like a planet ''and'' a car wash! You diggin' this or what?"
:—'''Sentinel Prime''' and '''Jazz''' share their thoughts on the rain.

"Wasp—I mean, Bumblebot—I mean, ''I'' will stay here in case Bumblebot—I mean, Wasp comes back." 
:—'''Wasp''' blows his cover several times, but the Autobots still don't pick it up.

'''Ratchet''': Come on! You're doing it wrong! Turn ''into'' the skid! 
'''Sentinel''': Into the skid? That's stupid! 
'''Jazz''': Just gotta go with the flow, S.P.! 
'''Optimus''': How do you put up with him? 
'''Jazz''': I just tune out half of everything he spits out. 
'''Optimus''': Only half?
:—The Autobots attempt to put up with the jerk, with no such luck.

"You're not arresting ''anyone'', Sentinel." 
"So you ''are'' in on it, Optimus." 
"No, Sentinel. I just have something you never will: respect for my teammates." 
:—'''Optimus Prime''' defines exactly ''how'' '''Sentinel Prime''' is a jerk.

"So hit me with that one more time. A robot in disguise swaps metal with a double agent, who is really on the level?" 
"Makes even less sense when you say it."
:—'''Jazz''' and '''Bulkhead''' try their best to fathom what's been going on.

"You were always mean to me and Bumblebee. You may not be a traitor...but you were ''never'' a good bot."
:-'''Bulkhead''' has a go at the traumatised victim of a frame-job—who's holding his best friend hostage.

==Notes==

===Animation or technical errors===
*When Bulkhead knocks Jetfire back, Jazz (who isn't even ''there'' yet), instead of Jetstorm, is standing next to Bumblebee.
*When Wasp is playing Bumblebee's video game (and liking it), the characters on screen switch sides as he loses.
*It seems that the animators can't decide which parts of the city are raining.
*Oddly, for a cartoon that tries to stay close to the transformation of the actual toys, Safeguard's transformation is nothing like the toy.
*When Wasp is on his own playing ''Ninja Gladiator'' and later, when he breaks character near the end, he has his original voice. How come Bumblebee couldn't do that?
*For that matter, after Wasp leaves Bumblebee behind, he has his original voice back too. Bumblebee is also still sporting a yellow version of Wasp's helmet.
*At certain points in the episode, Wasp (as Bumblebee) and Bumblebee (as Wasp) wear the design of their false identity's thighs.

===Continuity errors===
*This isn't an ''error'' as such, but just when did Wasp get an identical Earth form to Bumblebee's? And perhaps more to the point, ''how'' did he change form - both Optimus' crew and the Elite Guard reformatted on their well-equipped ships. Wasp was last seen beside a space bridge with no ship of any kind. Though it's possible that Wasp has the same ability as [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] and [[Lugnut]] to scan and adapt [[altmodes]] on his own.
*Given how close Ratchet is to [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] you'd think he'd know better than to say "no Autobot flies."

===Transformers references===
[[Image:WhereIsThySting-Bumblebeesvideogame.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Referenciality!]]
*We last saw Wasp in "[[Autoboot Camp]]", to which this episode is essentially a sequel. A brief flashback from the episode is shown after Bumblebee says he "took the rap" for Bulkhead for what happened to Sentinel Prime. In an attempt to maintain his ruse, Wasp also mentions all the things that Bumblebee had done then which accidentally embarrassed Sentinel Prime.He also mentions the events in "[[SUV: Society of Ultimate Villainy]]".
* Optimus' Autobots discovered that Wasp wasn't guilty in "[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]]".
* The background of the ''Ninja Gladiator'' video game prominently features [[TORQ III]].
* In the scene before he switches places with "Bumble-Bot", Wasp is wearing a [[rubsign]] in place of a conventional Autobot insignia.
* Sentinel Prime discusses the modifications made to Jetfire and Jetstorm, which took place in the "[[First (and Second) in Flight]]" comic book.
* Sentinel Prime still doesn't remember his time with Bumblebee and Bulkhead, as he did (didn't?) in "[[The Elite Guard]]".
* [[Tigatron]] Stadium, which will be seen in the next episode, can be seen in the background.

===Real-world references===
* The episode's title is a reference a Bible verse: namely, [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:55&version=31 1 Corinthians 15:55]: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
* Sentinel Prime's cry of "Arrest 'em all and let Ultra Magnus sort 'em out!" is a reference to a popular English translation of a saying by Abbot [[:wikipedia:Arnaud Amalric|Arnold Amaury]], before the massacre of Béziers during the Albigensian Crusade: "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."
** According to [[David Kaye]], [[Jeff Bennett]] once used this line in a recording session during the first season, causing the cast to burst into laughter and forcing them to take five.{{fact}}
* The four-armed insect from ''Ninja Gladiator'' is [http://www.micro-outpost.com/pictures/aliens/antron/antron.html Antron] from the ''[[Micronauts]]''. According to Derrick Wyatt, the black figure the insect fights is [[Snake-Eyes]].[http://twitter.com/SentinelPrime/status/1418651506][http://twitter.com/DerrickJWyatt/status/1418656175]
* The Jet bros. combination sequence, like much else about them, is based on the stock footage sequences of the various Symmetrical Docking robots from ''King Of [[Brave]]s GaoGaiGar''.

===Trivia===
*This episode received an impromptu online debut on [[March 25]], [[2009]], when a copy loaded onto the [[Cartoon Network]] website's server, intended to go live after the episode aired a few days later, was pilfered and leaked by some ne'er-do-wells. The next episode, "[[Five Servos of Doom]]", was leaked a few days later.

*Wasp has purple eyes, which were visible even with Bumblebee's battle mask up, and retained the striped design on his thighs. Bumblebee still had his blue eyes and other retained properties. The Autobots didn't notice this because...?

*You could ask the same question regarding the Jet twins. Although their Elite Guard insignias are on their hips, Optimus and Ratchet should have seen the insignia on their shoulders when they merged into Safeguard.

*Not to mention that Optimus and Ratchet have very obvious Autobot symbols. Why didn't the twins try to introduce themselves before diving into battle with them? Course, if Sentinel trained them, they might be bigger jerks then we realize and just assumed them traitors.

* When Bulkhead runs into the green Bumblebee in the street, Bumblebee puts his hands in the air to surrender and starts wailing that he's Bumblebee. Bulkhead ''knows'' Wasp was framed, locked up in the stockade for years, may well be traumatised, and has not as yet actually hurt anybody, but he still starts swinging his wrecking ball with intent to pummel. Later on when Wasp is revealed and takes Bumblebee hostage, Bulkhead starts telling the frightened and angry mech he's not a good bot. And when Wasp runs off, and Bulkhead sees a yellow mech lying outside face down and motionless, he instantly attacks what he thinks is Wasp. This episode doesn't do anything for Bulkhead's rep as an Autobot ''at all.''

*Apparently it doesn't rain on Cybertron, because Sentinel Prime was irritated that liquid falls from the sky on Earth.

[[Category:Animated episodes]]

Microman

2009-07-09T00:11:09Z

Fleb: /* Modern */ de-bolding

[[Image:Microman M251 Robin.jpg|right|100px|thumb|Robin (M251), an example of 3.75" figures that made up the bulk of the line.]]
'''''Microman''''' is one of two [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] toy lines (the other being ''[[Diaclone]]'') from which the original ''Transformers'' toys came. It consists of 3.75" action figures whose hallmarks are being highly articulated for their size and distinctive chromed head, along with vehicles and accessories. Strangely enough, it is both a descendant of [[Hasbro]]'s 12" ''[[G.I. Joe]]'' toy line via the ''Henshin Cyborg'' line, based on original ''G.I. Joe'' molds licensed to Takara and cast in transparent plastic, and the ancestor of Hasbro's 3.75" ''G.I. Joe A Real American Hero'' line, which used construction identical to the modified ''Microman'' construction developed by [[wikipedia:Mego_Corporation|Mego]] for licensed character figures after bringing ''Microman'' to the West as the ''Micronauts'' line. It is also the immediate ancestor of ''Diaclone'', the 1.25" chromed-head Diaclone drivers being a one-third scale version of ''Microman'' just as ''Microman'' was to ''Henshin Cyborg.''

==Vintage==
[[Image:Microman Robotman.jpg|right|100px|thumb|Robotman with a 3.75" Microman pilot visible in his chest]]
First released in 1974, ''Microman'' was the first line of poseable 3.75" figures. [[Robotman]], the first toy to transform from a robot to a vehicle, was added to the line in 1975. Thus ''Microman'''s impact on the global boys' toy market, little-known outside Japan, can scarcely be overestimated. In 1983, a new "[[Micro Change|Microchange]]" theme was introduced, under which all but a few of the robots and vehicles made to interact with the figures would have the ability to disguise themselves as ordinary household objects. The next year, these would end up in North American and European markets as part of Hasbro's ''Transformers'' line, and at the end of 1984 Takara canceled both ''Microman'' and ''Diaclone'' in favor of reimporting the ''Transformers'' with their new animated series (which these lines both lacked).

Notably, the 1975-era Microman [[M121 Mason]] (and Robotman, in a special move) appeared in the cross-company ''[[DreamMix TV World Fighters]]'' video game, representing Takara's properties alongside [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], and, uh, [[Licca-chan]].

==1999 revival==
15 years after being taken off the market, ''Microman'' returned, picking up a motley assortment of ''Transformers''-related vehicles such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[Action Master]] tractor trailer, [[Micromaster]] [[Countdown (G1)|Countdown]]'s mobile launch base and the [[Laser Cycle|Laser Cycles]] along the way. Although supported by an anime, the new toys lasted only 2 years.

Though it has not been verified, several ''Transformers'' items released in Japan are said to have been originally developed for this ''Microman'' line, such as the ''[[Beast Wars II (franchise)|Beast Wars II]]'' [[Tako Tank]] and [[Niagara Base]], and the [[Arsenal Force]] weapons in ''[[Robot Masters]]''.

In Japan, a short animated film based on the then-current version of the ''Microman'' line was packaged alongside a ''[[Licca Kayama|Super Doll Licca-chan]]'' short film and the ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' episode "[[Cutting Edge]]" for a Takara triple-feature theatrical release.

==Modern==
Another new line of ''Microman'' figures appeared in 2003, reinvisioned as an adult-oriented collectible. TakaraTomy still continue to produce this toy line, and in addition to a variety of original characters, they add multiple new sets of licensed characters each year under the "Micro Action" subline. These include such diverse properties as ''[[wikipedia:Neon Genesis Evangelion|Neon Genesis Evangelion]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Rei and Asuka, [[:wikipedia:Batman|Batman]] and several female supporting characters as well as Ra's Al Ghul, ''[[wikipedia:Street Fighter|Street Fighter]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Chun Li and Sakura, the [[wikipedia:Predator (film)|Predator]], and [[That big green, fire-snortin' lizard|Godzilla]] (the figures actually go inside rubber monster suits!), among many many others. This series was the genesis of the ''Transformers'' Microman [[Kicker Jones|Kicker]] and [[Ga'mede]] figures.

This version has prided itself on "Full Action Bodies" (30+ points of articulation).

Surprisingly, some of the modern ''Microman'' figures can use the older ''Microman'' accessories, such as [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron's]] gun attachments, when they are combined into the form of a gun turret.

==External links==
*[http://www.microforever.com/ Microman Forever (fansite)]

[[Category:Franchises]]
[[Category:Japanese toylines]]
[[Category:Multi-property brands]]

TransWarped

2009-07-05T02:00:19Z

Fleb:

{{episode|
|series=Anitoon
|image=TFA TransWarped Sari hands.jpg
|caption="WhY mY hAnDs HuRt?"
|prev=A Bridge Too Close, Part II
|next=Three's a Crowd
|ep=30, 31 and 32
|title="TransWarped"
|airdate=[[March 14]], 2009
|written by=[[Marty Isenberg]] [[Michael Ryan]] [[Marsha Griffin]]
|directed by=[[Matt Youngberg]] [[Yoshio Frank Chatani]] [[Tetsuro Moronuki]] [[Yutaka Kagawa]]
|animation studio=[[Mook]]
}}

'''In the aftermath of the battle at the mine, Sari and her father’s relationship takes a strange turn; the Autobots have their work cut out for them trying to contact Cybertron; and Megatron and Starscream find a new opportunity'''

==Synopsis==
===Part I===
[[Image:TransWarpedRodimusCosmicRust.jpg|thumb|left|180px|No fair, I just got here!]]

Somewhere along the outer rim of the galaxy, a contingent of [[Autobot]]s led by [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime]] defends [[space bridge 687-030]] against the [[Decepticon]]s' "[[Team Chaar]]", led by [[Strika (Animated)|Strika]]. She, [[Oil Slick (Animated)|Oil Slick]] and [[Cyclonus (Animated)|Cyclonus]] strafe [[Brawn (Animated)|Brawn]], [[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] and [[Hot Shot (Animated)|Hot Shot]], badly injuring Hot Shot's leg and forcing team medic [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] to perform an amputation. Before she can do so, however, she is swallowed up by [[Spittor (Animated)|Spittor]], who explosively vomits her back at her team. Rodimus contacts the [[Elite Guard]] for backup, but the Autobot forces are spread much too thin, defending space bridges from Decepticon attacks all across the galaxy. Oil Slick and Cyclonus proceed to take down Brawn and Ironhide, leaving Rodimus on his own, at which point Blackout arrives and all but finishes the fight with a huge electromagnetic pulse. Rodimus still has some fight left in him, but it drains away when Oil Slick offlines him with a vial of [[Cosmic Rust (disease)|Cosmic Rust]]. Strika contacts [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], who informs her that nobody is to TransWarp to the planet until [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] himself arrives. But Megatron was supposed to be there megacycles ago...

[[Image:TransWarpedStarscreamsScream.jpg|thumb|right|180px|How... literal. And disturbingly yonic.]]

Off in the depths of space, the disembodied head of [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] attempts to remove Megatron's stasis cuffs with his teeth as the Decepticon leader berates him all the while. As Starscream begins bellowing back at Megatron, the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] fragment in his forehead begins to glow, and he undergoes a surprising transformation: His mouth converts into a sonic blaster that shoots the cuffs clean off Megatron's wrists. There is no time for the two villains to celebrate, however, as the giant form of [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] materializes above them. But after a moment, Megatron realizes that the colossus is offline...

[[Image:TransWarpedProtoform.jpg|thumb|left|180px|Hush little baby, don't say a word. Sumdac's gonna build you a mockingbird.]]

On [[Earth]], as the Autobots return to [[Detroit]], [[Isaac Sumdac|Professor Sumdac]] explains [[Sari Sumdac|Sari's]] origins to her as best he can, revealing that he discovered her in his laboratory years ago, in the form of a small, liquid metal robot. Sari finds the story hard to believe, and her strained patience reaches its end when the group returns to [[Sumdac Tower]] and confronts [[Porter C. Powell]] and [[Henry Masterson]]. Powell tries to smooth things over with Isaac, but Masterson's belligerent attitude dispels any attempts at peace, which is further ruined when he demands the Autobots return his Headmaster, or "heads will roll". Having entered the lab from the elevator behind them, Optimus picks up Masterson and asks for clarification on his threat. Isaac immediately fires both Powell and Masterson, but Masterson refuses to vacate the premises, and Powell takes another shot at Sari's disputed parentage. In a moment of anger, Sari's hands transform into energy projectors that hurl the two men into the building's elevator. This newest revelation pushes Sari over the edge, and she walks out on the man she can no longer even think of as her father, returning to the Autobots' base with her "fellow robots". While [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] examines Sari—deducing that she's basically human, but partially Cybertronian—Prowl departs to carry out some research of his own. With Ratchet lost in his memories of [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]], [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] and [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] head back to the Decepticons' destroyed mine base to salvage some equipment that will let them contact Cybertron and inform the Autobots there of the traitor in their midst.

On a small planetoid somewhere in space, [[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]] is still trapped in a cement blob with Starscream's [[Thundercracker (Animated)|egomaniacal]] and [[Skywarp (Animated)|cowardly]] clones. Blurr proposes using sonic pulses to dissolve the glue, and the egomaniac takes the idea for his own and successfully frees them. Blurr immediately speeds off, launching into space and literally running across the galaxy, ricocheting off everything in his path (including the egomaniac) to get back to Cybertron and inform the Elite Guard of Megatron's invasion plan.

Megatron and Starscream force their way into Omega Supreme's body, but this action brings the giant Autobot back online, and his internal systems immediately seize the Decepticons. Megatron exploits Omega's simple processor and convinces the titan to take him back to Cybertron "to face justice". Omega transforms back into ship mode and TransWarps off toward Cybertron.

Back on Earth, Bumblebee and Bulkhead are searching through the ruins of the mine when Bumblebee discovers a [[Plasmadynamic thruster|plasmadynamic thruster]] space bridge component that abruptly TransWarps him away. While Bulkhead is wondering where his buddy went, he is suddenly attacked by Henry Masterson, who recovered his Headmaster unit and Starscream's headless body from the mine the night before.

At Sumdac Tower, Prowl shadows Sumdac into his laboratory, quickly accesses his computers, and scans the scientist in an attempt to learn more about Sari's origins. Ratchet is having distinctly less luck back at the Autobot base, where Sari refuses to let him perform an exploratory surgery. The whole unpleasant affair reminds Ratchet of his past on Cybertron, when he performed open-processor surgery on Arcee and discovered she was carrying the codes that were key to the creation of Omega Supreme. Prime snaps Ratchet out of his flashback with the news that he cannot contact Bumblebee and Bulkhead, and Ratchet heads out to the mine to investigate.

[[Image:TFA TransWarped Headmaster Starscream power up.jpg|thumb|right|180px|[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II|Here we go again...]]]]
With the other Autobots busy, Optimus Prime tries to patch up the Sumdac family feud by surreptitiously opening a comm channel to Professor Sumdac's laboratory and explaining loudly and at length to Sari that he is going to take her to [[Burger Bot]]. Sumdac catches on and heads out to meet them there, but Sari is furious at being set up and refuses to talk to him. Unfortunately, the Headmaster soon arrives, having picked up Prime's phone call through bugs left in Sumdac Tower, and threatens to unleash t0t47 0wN4ge!

===Part II===
[[Image:TFAni TransWarped Headmaster PWN3D.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Heads out.]]
Optimus Prime engages the Headmaster, binding him with his grapplers and dragging him around the Burger Bot parking lot before taking a moment to usher the Sumdacs to safety behind a dumpster. The fight carries the two combatants to an overhead roadway and back, with the Headmaster eventually downing Prime with a slab of concrete. Sumdac is forced to take action, and he hides Sari within the dumpster so that he can draw the Headmaster's attention and keep her safe. Touched by this, Sari unleashes her energy projectors on the Headmaster in defence of her father, though they do little to the villain other than draw his attention. Prime rejoins the battle just in time, ramming the villain in truck mode and goading the Headmaster into trying to transform Starscream's body as well. Infuriated by Prime's claim that a n00b such as he would find it difficult, the Headmaster tries to meet the challenge... only to find his Headmaster unit squeezed clean off Starscream's body by the transformation process. As Starscream's lifeless carcass spirals off into the river, the Headmaster is apprehended by Prime and handed over to [[Captain Fanzone]].

Back at Sumdac tower, Prowl reveals his findings to Prime, Sari and Sumdac: He believes that the body Sumdac found in his lab was, in fact, a Cybertronian [[protoform]] that scanned Professor Sumdac's genetic data. Sari takes the revelation in stride, although everyone else remains mystified as to how a protoform wound up on Earth in the first place. There is no time to dwell on the subject, however, as Ratchet radios Prime to inform him of Bulkhead's injuries and Bumblebee's disappearance.

Out in space, Omega Supreme re-emerges from TransWarp, and his systems all power down, having been sapped of energy by the effort of the teleport. Megatron attempts to escape from the confines of the giant Autobot's body, but without his weapons, he is unable. Starscream's new sonic blaster is similarly ineffective, and Megatron instead schemes to take control of Omega's very body.

[[Image:TFAni TransWarped Blurr Crushed.jpg|180px|right|thumb|"We... are going... to die!"]]
On Cybertron, Shockwave (in the form of Longarm Prime) is informed by [[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]] that the space bridge network has been shut down to prevent a Decepticon invasion of the planet. Suppressing his frustration, Shockwave is promptly presented with an outlet for his anger when Blurr comes streaking out of the sky and crashes at his feet. Blurr informs him of the double-agent on Cybertron, whom he plans to identify by cross-referencing his voice-print with the Cybertron intelligence database, and Shockwave immediately attacks the speedster, intent on silencing him before his cover can be blown. Blurr streaks off into a series of nearby corridors, but his speed fails to carry him beyond Shockwave's reach: Using a control console, Shockwave seals off the tunnels, and Blurr is crushed between two walls.

Back on Earth, Ratchet's treatment of Bulkhead is interrupted by Sari, who volunteers use of her Key to fix the larger Autobot's wounds. Ratchet is indignant, insisting that just because something is new, it doesn't make it better, but Bulkhead requests the Key. While Sari goes to work on Bulkhead's injuries, the sullen medic is overtaken by his memories; he recalls the creation of Omega Supreme and how he was partnered with the newborn titan to serve as his mentor, teacher and friend. Ratchet is roused from his unpleasant trip down memory lane when discussion turns to the whereabouts of Bumblebee, and before long, Bulkhead figures out that the plasmadynamic thruster has TransWarped Bumblebee off across the galaxy. Bulkhead suggests using a retrieval beacon generator recovered from the mine ruins to pinpoint Bumblebee's location, and Sari uses her Key to fix it before Ratchet can even begin examining it.

Aboard Omega Supreme, Megatron uses his stasis cuffs to "hotwire" Omega's body and bring it back online. However, when the light from Omega's "headlights" falls upon a nearby asteroid, Megatron and Starscream are shocked to see the rock react to the light, transforming into a humanoid monster that immediately attacks the ship! As more asteroids transform around him, Omega TransWarps away to safety...only for Bumblebee, cruising on the tail end of Omega's TransWarp field, to materialize in his place, right in the midst of the rock creatures! The largest creature swallows the tiny Autobot with a single gulp.

Simultaneously, on Earth, Bulkhead locks in on Bumblebee's position and teleports him back, but the rock creature he is inside comes with him and is immediately driven to a rampage by the blinding light of the [[Sun]]. Optimus Prime detects Bumblebee's signature within the creature, and the Autobots prepare to give chase as the alien stomps off through the city. Prowl is rather taken aback to see Ratchet wearing his EMP generator on his arm once more, while Prime has to deal with Sari's demands that she be allowed to join them in the fight now that she has powers. Prime refuses, and the Autobots zoom off after the rock monster, but Sari won't take no for an answer and is struck with inspiration: Give herself an upgrade! Sari concentrates, and a port opens in her chest, into which she inserts her Key...and in an explosion of energy, Sari's whole body transforms into a taller, older form, suited in combat armor!

[[Image:TFAni TransWarped Screamer Hotwire OmegaSupreme.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Name: Starscream Function: Jumper Cable]]
Meanwhile, Megatron has discovered that Omega Supreme has again expended all his power, and his stasis cuffs do not have the energy left to rectify the situation. He grabs Starscream's head and jams it into the circuits, where the traitor's AllSpark fragment energizes Omega's systems once more.

[[Image:TransWarpedBumblebeeSari.jpg|thumb|right|180px|So, kids, don't play with too many knives!]]
Back in Detroit, the Autobots are attempting to figure out how to stop the rock creature without hurting Bumblebee, when the upgraded Sari comes streaking onto the scene on jet skates. As the Autobots look on in shock, Sari begins attacking the alien with arm-blades and an energy-hammer that morph out of her arms. A single strike of the hammer reduces the alien to boulders, freeing Bumblebee, who is immediately struck by Sari's new look, but then shouts a warning: The smaller boulders surrounding the pair have transformed into small creatures. But the creatures pose no threat to Sari, and she pounds them into pebbles. As Sari basks in her triumph, Ratchet realizes with horror that she has used the Key on herself. The elderly Autobot's concern is soon proven valid, as the Key overloads Sari's systems, and she loses control of her body. With Sari attacking everything and everyone around her, the Autobots attempt to stop her with a variety of non-lethal strategies, but Sari counters everything they throw at her, including Prowl's processor-over-matter technique. Even as Prime and Sari tell Bumblebee to keep back, the young Autobot races to his friend's side...only for the out-of-control Sari to stab him through the chest! Frozen for a horrific moment, Bumblebee is then hurled back by an energy discharge, and the light dims from his optics...

===Part III===
Ratchet leaps to Bumblebee's aid, but without Sari's Key, Bulkhead fears his little buddy is done for. Ratchet denies that he requires the key to do his job, but his memories of when he was forced to place the dying Omega Supreme in stasis haunt him as he begins to operate on Bumblebee.

[[Image:TFAni TransWarped Ratchet Repairs Bumblebee.jpg|left|thumb|180px|Operator, what's the number for Nine-One-One?]]
Sari, meanwhile, is storming through the city streets, causing objects to explode when she comes into contact with them, and the Autobots head after her, seeking to remove the Key in hopes of bringing her back under control. They corral her with a wall of steel girders, affording Prowl the chance to get the drop on her and rip the Key from her chest, but Sari continues to rampage. With Bumblebee fading, Ratchet goes back on his previous claim and requests the Key be brought to him, but when Prowl complies, he discovers that the energy of the Key has been completely drained. Prowl assures Ratchet that he can accomplish the task without the Key, and the old medic gravely takes up the challenge and manages to bring Bumblebee back online.

Back with Sari, Prime and Bulkhead, Sari's energies are growing increasingly more out of control, as the street beneath her explodes with every step she takes. Bulkhead suggests just trying to "hold it in," but when Sari tries, things get even worse, as she begins to glow with so much energy that she is on the verge of exploding. Optimus summons Ratchet so that he can use his EMP generator to take Sari down, and while Ratchet is hesitant to do so, Sari begs him to stop her. Ratchet fires, and Sari collapses, her energy fading.

[[Image:TFAni TransWarped LongArm Cliffjumper Cube.jpg|right|thumb|180px|Kid's meal premiums aren't what they used to be.]]
On Cybertron, Longarm Prime has Cliffjumper dispose of the crushed remains of Blurr and is then contacted by Megatron. Learning that the space bridge network is down and that the Earth-based Autobots are poised to blow Shockwave's cover, Megatron orders the Decepticons to cease their attacks on the space bridges so that he can solve both problems his own way. Team Chaar receive the transmission and fall back, much to the Elite Guard's surprise.

In the Autobots' base, Ratchet completes a rewiring of Sari's systems, bypassing the circuits that caused her to run out of control. Professor Sumdac soon arrives, having been informed of the location of the base by Optimus Prime. The Autobots are a little upset by this, but Prime makes it clear that there are to be no more secrets in this "family". The Autobots step outside the plant to give the Sumdacs some time together, and are in the middle of catching Bumblebee up on recent events when the small Autobot suddenly begins to glow with TransWarp energies once more. Bulkhead quickly deactivates the plasmadynamic thruster, but the source of the TransWarp wave the thruster was picking up soon becomes apparent, as Omega Supreme materializes in the sky overhead. Much to the Autobots' surprise, the titan fires upon them before transforming to robot mode, revealing a projected image of Megatron's face upon his visor! The Decepticon leader is in complete control of Omega's body and begins attacking the Autobots, forcing Optimus Prime to consider unleashing an uncontrollable Sari on the giant. Before resorting to this desperate last resort, the Autobots attempt to lure Megatron away from the city. Ratchet even upgrades Bumblebee's stingers to a more powerful battle grade for the mission.

[[Image:TFAni TransWarped Prowl Megs OSFight.jpg|left|thumb|180px|I'm going to have to put you on the game grid.]]
Taking refuge in the nearby river, the Autobots attack Omega's legs, forcing open an access hatch through which Prime and Prowl enter Omega's body. Battling Omega's internal defences, Prowl taps into Omega's processor in order to help him fight off Megatron's control, and they succeed in forcing Megatron out of the system. Prime engages Megatronin order to keep Prowl safe, but as their battle rages, Starscream seizes control of Omega's mind and forcibly disconnects Prowl from Omega's processor. Prime and Prowl are unceremoniously ejected from Omega Supreme's body, but Starscream is not finished there; he uses Omega's internal defences to seize Megatron, and resumes attacking the Autobots all around him. Megatron manages to talk Starscream into an alliance, suggesting they forget Earth and conquer Cybertron together. Starscream struggles to activate Omega's TransWarp system, and while his attention is occupied with this task, Omega's consciousness fights its way to the surface and begs Ratchet to shut him down again. Ratchet regretfully unleashes his EMP generator upon Omega, but it has no effect, and Starscream transforms Omega into starship mode in order to begin the TransWarp. Bulkhead and Bumblebee hit upon the idea to plant the plasmadynamic thruster on Omega Supreme, and they hand it off to Prime to complete the task. Prime plants the thruster at the last second before Omega disappears into TransWarp, and Ratchet catches Prime with his magnets as he falls out of the sky.

Back at the Autobot base a little later, Sari comes to and admits to Ratchet that he was right about taking it slow. Sumdac apologizes for holding back the truth from Sari for so long, and Bumblebee thanks Ratchet for saving his tailpipe. Unfortunately, Bulkhead brings the mood down by reminding everyone that they still have to find a way to contact Cybertron.

[[Image:TFA TransWarped lost in space.JPG|thumb|right|180px|[[Ripped Up Space]]]]
On Cybertron, [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] holds an Autobot council and announces that all the evidence points to a double agent on Cybertron. Longarm Prime implicates escaped convict [[Wasp]], and Ultra Magnus instructs [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] and [[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] to put together a unit to hunt the fugitive down. Magnus also notes that he has to make contact with Optimus's crew on Earth, and Longarm hastily demands that all contact with them be filtered through him, responding to the council's wary looks by adding that it will be purely for security reasons.

In the sky above Cybertron, Omega Supreme materializes, and Starscream howls with glee...only for the Autobot spaceship to TransWarp away immediately to another random point in space...and another...and another...
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Hot Shot (Animated)|Hot Shot]] (2)
*[[Ironhide (Animated)|Ironhide]] (3)
*[[Brawn (Animated)|Brawn]] (4)
*[[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] (7)
*[[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus Prime]] (9)
*[[Jazz (Animated)|Jazz]] (10)
*[[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] (11)
*[[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]] (12)
*[[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] (17)
*[[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] (18)
*[[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] (19)
*[[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] (20)
*[[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] (21)
*[[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] (22)
*[[Mainframe (Animated)|Mainframe]] (27)
*[[Highbrow (Animated)|Highbrow]] (28)
*[[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]] (29)
*[[Blurr (Animated)|Blurr]] (31)
*[[Wheeljack (Animated)|Wheeljack]] (33)
*[[Perceptor (Animated)|Perceptor]] (34)
*[[Cliffjumper (Animated)|Cliffjumper]] (36)
*[[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Alpha Trion]] (37)

|c2=
*[[Cyclonus (Animated)|Cyclonus]] (1)
*[[Oil Slick (Animated)|Oil Slick]] (5)
*[[Strika (Animated)|Strika]] (6)
*[[Spittor (Animated)|Spittor]] (8)
*[[Shockwave (Animated)|Longarm Prime / Shockwave]] (13)
*[[Blackout (Animated)|Blackout]] (14)
*[[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] (15)
*[[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] (16)
*[[Skywarp (Animated)|Skywarp]] (30)
*[[Thundercracker (Animated)|Thundercracker]] (32)

|c3=
*[[Isaac Sumdac]] (24)
*[[Headmaster (Animated)|The Headmaster]] (25)
*[[Porter C. Powell]] (26)
*[[Captain Fanzone]] (35)

|c4=
*[[Sari Sumdac]] (23)
*[[Rock creature]]s (38)
}}

==Quotes==
"'Bulkhead' and 'genius' in the same sentence? I'll never get used to that."
:—'''Bumblebee''' shows his high opinion of his best friend.

"I'll warn them even if I have to run halfway across the galaxy to Cybertron to do it!" 
:—'''Blurr''', who apparently does just that.

"Sari, I don't pretend to fully understand humans, but from what I've seen, being a father is far more than a simple organic bond. It has much more to do with the spark. With the heart."
:—'''Optimus Prime''' muses on the nature of family. Sadly, the [[fandom]] desires more [[Relatives|concrete answers]].

"Prepare for TOT! Total Ownage Time!"
:—'''Headmaster''' to Optimus Prime and the Sumdacs.

'''Masterson''': Cut it out and fight like a robot! 
''[Optimus fully transforms]'' 
'''Optimus''': Why don't ''you'' try fighting like a ''jet''? That is, unless you don't think you can handle transforming. It ''is'' pretty difficult. Especially for a "n00b" such as yourself. 
'''Masterson''': N-Nobody calls me a n00b! NOBODY!
:—Optimus hits the Headmaster where it hurts the most—his own vocabulary.

'''Megatron''': It's no use. I can't break through without my weapons. 
'''Starscream''': Ahem. You're forgetting one of us ''is'' a weapon. 
''[Starscream fires his sonic blast, but the recoil sends him ricocheting around the bridge, screaming all the while]'' 
'''Megatron''': And a pitiful one, at that. 
:—Even weaponless and trapped inside an Autobot, Megatron can still take comfort in the fact that he's still better off than Starscream.

'''Ratchet''': Last time I checked, I was this team's medic, and I've been doing it this way for over four million stellar cycles! Any bot got a problem with that? 
'''Prowl''': Uh, no, not really. 
'''Bulkhead''': No, I'm good.
:—Ratchet lays down the law on the Autobots.

"You taught me to protect like an Autobot, but all I did was destroy like a Decepticon." 
"We do what we must, even if it sometimes doesn't make sense." 
"I don't understand." 
"I'm not sure I do, either. Just rest now, friend. You've earned it." 
"Thank you…"
:—'''Omega Supreme''' and '''Ratchet''', before the former is put into modified stasis

'''Ratchet''': Omega, what are you doing?! Don't you recognize your old friend?! 
'''Megatron''': The question should be, "Don't you recognize your old enemy?" 
'''Optimus Prime''': Megatron?! 
'''Megatron''': Ah, then you ''do'' remember my name. Pity I can't remember yours.
:—The Autobots learn that Megatron has taken control of Omega Supreme

"It appears you and I are destined to battle aboard this ship once more, Autobot." 
"Bring it on, Decepticon."
:—'''Megatron''' and '''Optimus Prime'''

"Starscream too powerful. Please, shut me down! I want to sleep again." 
"I already had to use this thing once today when I didn't want to. Don't make me use it again." 
"We do what we must, even if it sometimes doesn't make sense."
:—'''Omega Supreme''' tries to convince '''Ratchet''' to use his EMP Generator

"Someday I really have to learn how to fly."
:—Someday will come [[Endgame, Part I|soon]], '''Optimus Prime'''

==Notes==

===Technical or animation errors===
* When Megatron is first seen in space, parts of his helmet are miscolored red.
* When Sari removes her key in order to place it in the homing beacon generator, the string doesn't actually go over her head... It just phases through her neck. Somehow.
* The damage to Starscream's body disappears during the commercial break.
* When Bumblebee tells Sari to watch out, her back kibble disappears for a moment. It reappears in the next shot.
* Once the key has been removed from Sari, the string attached to it mysteriously reappears.
* When Ratchet is talking to Bumblebee about Sari's condition, the side of his head is miscolored white.
* When Blackout attacks Rodimus, his chest is miscolored gray.
* After Bumblebee is slashed, there's a red spot on Bulkhead with an Autobot symbol inside it.

===Continuity errors===
* Megatron finds both of his rotors/swords after being freed from the stasis cuffs, despite leaving ''at least'' one behind when he was sucked into the space bridge in "A Bridge Too Close".
* When Bumblebee gets blown away in "Part II" after being stabbed by Sari, he lands on his back. When we cut back to him in "Part III", he appears on his side.
* Bumblebee’s rocket boosters seemingly appear out of nowhere. With Ratchet's upgrading of his stingers and now this, it seems that <s>Hasbro</s> the Autobots have gotten over their "Upgrades are bad, m'kay" phase. Spending two seasons out-gunned will probably do that to you.
* Sentinel is back in his Earth body, despite being shown in his Cybertronian body during ''[[Autoboot Camp]]''.
* If Sumdac was wearing gloves at the time he touched the protoform, how did it get his DNA?
*It is revealed that the streak of white in Isaac's hair came from the shock he received when he approached the protoform that would become Sari. Pay no attention to the streak in the hair of his younger self appearing in "[[Transform and Roll Out]]", please...

===Transformers references===
*Bar Oil Slick, every member of the new squads harkens back to a previous series. Rodimus, Ironhide, Brawn and Cyclonus are heavily based off their Generation One counterparts. Red Alert and Hot Shot take after their Unicron Trilogy incarnations. Spittor and Strika are both modeled after Beast Era characters, and Blackout's design is heavily influenced by the live-action movie version.
*As Sari dismisses Isaac Sumdac's story of her origin, she suggests that he should have told her how he found her "in a cabbage patch", or how "the stork" brought her. Similar ideas were suggested by Professors Bumblebee and Bulkhead in "[[The Return of the Headmaster]]". In that episode, the professors also suggested that Sari was really a robot, that she came to Earth in an egg, or that she could have fallen through a portal, ''all'' of which seem to have some nugget of truth to them: She ''is'' a robot, she was contained in a strange pod, and she appeared in Sumdac's lab out of thin air. ''Foreshadowing!''
*After Sari mentions those theories, Optimus Prime recalls how Sari told him of human manufacturing, which occurred in "[[Transform and Roll Out]]".
*While lecturing her on taking it slow with her powers, Ratchet says that there's "more than meets the vis-scanners" on having powers, a clear reference to the time-honored Transformers tagline "[[More than Meets the Eye (disambiguation)|more than meets the eye]]".
*Starscream says Omega Supreme is "more powerful than I imagined...well, not AllSpark-powerful...", in reference to his use of the same phrase to describe the AllSpark way back in "Transform and Roll Out!"
*Arcee's open head [[:Image:Spotlight Arcee b.jpg|looks ''waaay'' too much]] like [[Alex Milne]]'s cover for [[IDW Publishing]]'s "[[Spotlight: Arcee]]" to be a coincidence.
*Blurr races along a Saturn-style planetary ring, as [[Blurr (G1)|his namesake]] had done in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)#Season 3|Generation 1 season 3]] opening credits.
*The building in which the Autobot Elite Guard have their meeting looks [[Metroplex (G1)|somewhat familiar]].
*Blackout seems to have retained his seismic stomp that was used by his [[Blackout (Movie)|movie counterpart]].
*Team Chaar gets its name from [[Chaar|the planet of the same name]].

===Real-world references===
* Megatron tells Optimus, "You have persistence, Autobot. I hate persistence." This is based on Lou Grant's well-known dialogue from the first episode of ''[[:wikipedia:The Mary Tyler Moore Show|The Mary Tyler Moore Show]]''—"You know what, you've got spunk! … I hate spunk!"
*Sari's transformation sequence upon absorbing the power of the key is a nod to the transformation sequence of the title robot in ''Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann''.

===Trivia===
*[[Derrick J. Wyatt]] confirmed via. Twitter after the show aired that like the series pilot, "[[Transform and Roll Out]]", "TransWarped" was made "as one 70 minute movie", although it was also cut into 22-minute episodes for syndication.<ref>[[Derrick J. Wyatt]] — http://twitter.com/DerrickJWyatt/status/1329673450 — "We made it as one 70 minute movie, but it has also been cut into three 22s".</ref> Unlike the pilot, however, "TransWarped" counts as three episodes out of the thirteen alotted for the show's third season. While Cartoon Network aired all three episode in movie form for their premiere, Canadian network YTV opted to debut them in episodic form, airing only the first two in a double-bill, and then screening the final part the following week.
* The creatures that turn into rocks are a reference to the Rock Lords from the [[Tonka GoBots]] movie ''[[wikipedia:GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords|GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords]]''
*Starscream gains a "sonic scream" as a head-mounted weapon in this episode. Coincidentally (or not?), in the initial [[Cartoon Network]] press release for Transformers Animated, Starscream's profile claimed that he had a sonic scream he could use to send foes spinning through the air.
*The Headmaster's appearance in this episode marks the only time a human villain is used in Season 3. And even then, he's relatively minor compared to a Decepticon-controlled Omega Supreme.

==References==
<references/>

{{DEFAULTSORT:Transwarped}}
[[Category:Animated episodes]]

Daniel Witwicky (Animated)

2009-07-05T01:15:03Z

Fleb: /* Animated cartoon */

{{disambig3|Daniel Witwicky}}

:''Daniel [[Witwicky]] is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:AnimatedDanielModel.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Even in the 22nd century, he's still overdressed.]]

'''Daniel Witwicky''' is a delightful little moppet in an outfit Bootsy Collins wouldn't be caught dead in. He is the son of [[Spike Witwicky (Animated)|Spike]] and [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|Carly]]. His mother or father works for [[Isaac Sumdac]], which means he has to pretend to be [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]]'s friend. He is easily upset by [[Bulkhead (Animated)|berserk warbots]] thrashing [[News Bot|innocent reporter robots]]. Go figure.
__TOC__
==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Tara Strong]] (English)

In a segment about the wonders of modern society and the impact that robots have had upon it, Daniel was seen with his parents purchasing some sort of bunless wiener of dubious origin from a robot vendor cart. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

Daniel was amongst the children who attended Sari Sumdac's birthday party. He didn't want to, because he thinks she's weird. He's not too proud to refuse an Autobot ride, though. {{storylink|Sound and Fury}}

[[Image:Danielanimatedcry.jpg|left|180px|thumb|[[I Risk My Life for Earth|"Real men don't cry, Danny. They only get stronger."]]]]

Daniel was amongst a group milling around as Bulkhead was interviewed for the news. He was especially distraught when the enormous Autobot crushed the news bot under an automobile, and a nearby woman gave Bulkhead a stern talking to. {{storylink|Headmaster (episode)|Headmaster}}

Daniel was also one of the children in the class [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] spoke to on Career Day. He is apparently obsessed with Optimus's fire truck mode. {{storylink|Career Day}}

[[Image:HumanError-DanielSpike.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Resenting his father already.]]
About a year later, and inside a virtual world, Daniel was slightly older and riding a bus with his dad. {{storylink|Human Error, Part I}}
{{--}}

==Notes==
[[Image:Spikecarlydanielanimated.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Is it a hot dog or a popsicle?]]
* Daniel is, of course, the ''Animated'' version of [[Generation 1]]'s [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel Witwicky]]. He is (sometimes) accompanied by one or both of his parents, who are similarly familiar in appearance.

* Daniel has yet to be named on-screen. However, the credits for "Headmaster" have given him his first name... but no last name.

* Daniel's first name is listed on his model sheet, though with no last name. However, a scale guide featuring Daniel, [[Spike Witwicky (Animated)| Spike]] and [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|Carly]] is labeled "size comp - Witwicky Family."

* The family's names were subsequently confirmed in the DVD commentary track for "[[Garbage In, Garbage Out]]".

{{DEFAULTSORT:Witwicky, Daniel (Animated)}}
[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Cartoon-only characters]]
[[Category:Witwicky family|Daniel Witwicky (Animated)]]

Spike Witwicky (Animated)

2009-07-05T01:05:28Z

Fleb:

{{disambig2|Spike Witwicky from [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]|more information about Witwickys|Witwicky}}
:''Spike [[Witwicky]] is a [[human]] from the [[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:New Spike and Carly.JPG|right|250px|thumb|[[Equal Measures|"Hey! What're you doin'?! We're partners!"]]]]
'''Spike Witwicky''' is the dedicated husband of [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|Carly]] and the father of [[Daniel Witwicky (Animated)|Daniel]]. He can often be seen with his wife and/or son. He or his wife or possibly both of them are employed at [[Sumdac Systems]]. He has passed his impeccable fashion sense on to his son. He tends to get quite agitated when he sees that an ambulance is driving itself. Particularly if he's riding in it at the time. [[Human|Crazy organics]].

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
:''Voice actor:'' [[Corey Burton]] (English), [[Alexander Doering]] (German)

In a segment about the wonders of modern society and the impact that robots have had upon it, Spike was seen with his [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|wife]] and [[Daniel Witwicky (Animated)|son]] purchasing some sort of bunless wiener of dubious origin from a robot vendor cart. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out!|Transform and Roll Out}}

Months later, Spike flagged down a [[Ratchet (Animated)|passing ambulance]] because his wife was about to give birth. After being drawn into a chase scene, armed robbery, and giant robot fight, he opted to take a taxi instead. {{storylink|Garbage In, Garbage Out|Garbage In, Garbage Out}}

==Notes==
* Corey Burton also voiced [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] in the Generation 1 series.
* In the credits for "[[Garbage In, Garbage Out]]", Spike is listed simply as "Husband".
* Spike's full name, Spike Witwicky, is handwritten on his [[character model]]. The family's names were subsequently confirmed in the DVD commentary track for "Garbage In, Garbage Out".

{{DEFAULTSORT:Witwicky, Spike (Animated)}}
[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Cartoon-only characters]]
[[Category:Witwicky family|Spike Witwicky (Animated)]]

Equal Measures

2009-07-05T01:04:14Z

Fleb: /* Transformers references */

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=4
|image=Equal Measures Cheetor darksyde.jpg
|caption=Later they discovered Cheetor was sitting on the self-destruct button.
|title="Equal Measures"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[September 23]], 1996
|written by=[[Greg Johnson]]
|directed by=[[T.W. Peacocke]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''Dinobot manipulates both Maximals and Predacons around a teleporter that Cheetor has unintentionally developed between both bases.'''

:''Japanese title:'' 時限爆弾転送作戦! (''Jigen Bakudan Tensō Sakusen!'', "Operation: Time Bomb Transfer!")

==Synopsis==
[[Optimus Primal]] watches a bolt of lightning shatter a mountain, revealing a cache of [[Energon (fuel)|energon]]. Because of the hazardous conditions, he radios to his team to abort their current operation. The storm garbles the transmission, though, preventing the other [[Maximal]]s from receiving it.

[[Image:Dinobotbulliescheetor.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Something we've seen all too often.]]
The mission involves energon monitoring devices designed by [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], who has just gotten done building the last of them. Impatient to get going, [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] carelessly plays with one of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]]'s projects, a ''time bomb'', and accidentally drops it out the floor hatch... where it's caught by a returning Optimus, who reiterates his order for the mission to be scrubbed. Everyone's clearly upset over the development, not believing the storm to be that severe yet, but Primal is adamant; it'll have to wait until later. Dejected, everyone returns to quarters to wait out the storm.

In Cheetor's quarters, Dinobot meets with the cat-bot and endorses the mission being continued regardless of the danger from the weather and the energon. He points out that Primal clearly treats Cheetor like a child, even though with his speed, the cat-bot could easily outrun the storm and plant the devices before it hits. This appeal to vanity works, and Cheetor sneaks out to complete the mission.

[[Image:Equal Measures Cheetor monitoring device.jpg|right|200px|thumb|This wireless Broadband box is rubbish!]]
In the field, Cheetor plants survey apparatuses in quick succession, but a bolt of lightning causes the cat accidentally to plant one of the posts dangerously close to an energon vein. He tries to remove the device and correct his mistake, but in the middle of his struggle, a second lightning bolt hits, and he finds himself suddenly teleported — onto a control panel in the [[Darksyde|Predacon base]]!

[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] "welcomes" Cheetor and attacks the Maximal, but Cheetor grabs a hover-platform and tries to escape. After being knocked off the platform, Cheetor lunges at Terrorsaur and pushes the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] onto the control panel he'd just arrived on, causing Terrorsaur to vanish. [[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] and [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] arrive and chase Cheetor around the Predacon base, but lose him in the ventilation shafts.

[[Image:Cheetorsurprised.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Shouldn't have had the vindaloo last night.]]
Meanwhile, Terrorsaur finds himself in the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Enemy Arms]]'' command center, where he's given a warm reception by Dinobot. However, the former Predacon is more concerned over how the pteranodon arrived, eventually working out that a freak combination of the survey devices, the storm, and the energon created a transporter link between the two bases. Using this to his advantage, Terrorsaur seems to convince Dinobot into forming an alliance, suggesting they scrap the Maximals, then take over the Predacons and rule together... until Dinobot drops the charade and unceremoniously flushes the Pred out of the ''Axalon'' through a waste disposal unit.

Back at the Predacon base, Cheetor continues to flee while avoiding fire from Waspinator. He sneaks away from the two long enough to hack the Predacons' data files, and determines that both bases sit on a common underground Energon vein, so an explosion at one base would cause a chain reaction that would obliterate both ships. Cheetor is discovered as soon as he downloads this data to a disk.

At the Maximal base, Optimus confronts Dinobot on Cheetor's whereabouts. Dinobot tells him about the link and how the cat-bot has "surely" been destroyed by now, but convinces him that they could use the link to annihilate the Predacon base with the bomb, a plan Primal only agrees to as long as the bomb's timer is set with enough time to allow the Preds to evacuate. Just as the bomb is sent, though, Cheetor tosses the disk with the energon vein data onto the console, transporting both items simultaneously.

[[Image:Crispyterrorsaur.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Would you like me original, or extra crispy?]]
The Predacons finally corner Cheetor, but the bomb has magnetically locked itself onto the Pred console, forcing Megatron to let him go so he can release it. With a few seconds left, Cheetor throws it up to Terrorsaur, who flies it out of the base (and is blown up with it), while Cheetor escapes through the link. The Predacons' errant shots destroy the console instead. Furthermore, his return trip to the ''Axalon'' shatters all of the survey posts he's planted, ensuring the link is severed for good.

Afterwards, Rhinox and [[Rattrap]] congratulate Cheetor's prevention of the Maximal base from being destroyed by their own explosive, while Dinobot is in a bad mood as usual and leaves—though Cheetor apparently didn't tell anyone that Dinobot talked him into the whole thing. Primal still commands Cheetor to take more care to obey direct orders. Cheetor says he will—except when he doesn't—and scampers off, leaving Rhinox and Rattrap to have a jolly laugh.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Optimus Primal]] (1)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (2)
*[[Rattrap]] (3)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (4)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (5)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s
|c2=
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (6)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (7)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (8)
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (9)

}}
==Quotes==
"Defeating them does not mean we have to ''annihilate'' them. You seem to have trouble understanding that."
:—'''Optimus''' gently chides Dinobot for thinking like a Predacon.

"Shoulda known no Maximal'd be stupid enough to try anything on a day like this."
:—'''Terrorsaur''' underestimates the enemy again.

"Cheetor! Maximi- did that already."
:—'''Cheetor''' forgets that he already transformed.

"He's gone into the vents! You better report this to Megatron." 
"Me?! ''You're'' second-in-command!" 
"So make it an order!"
:—'''Scorponok''' and '''Waspinator''' establish the chain of command.

"Where'd he go?! Where'd ''I'' go?"
:—'''Terrorsaur''' realises he isn't in Kansas any more.

"Think of the cosmic magnificence. Together we'll overthrow these low-grade metal knock-offs you've joined, and then rule the Predacons with two iron fists! NOTHING CAN STOP US!"
:—'''Terrorsaur''' has such naive optimism.

"Hey! What are you doing? We're partners!" 
"In case you had not realized, Needlenose... I am ''not'' a team player." 
:—'''Terrorsaur''', about to get launched over the horizon by '''Dinobot'''

"OK, OK, I'll never do that again! Until the next time."
:—'''Cheetor''' has learned nothing from this adventure.

==Notes==
* Dinobot is kind of a jerk this early on.
* And Cheetor needs obedience beat into him.
* And Rattrap just needs the snot beat ''out'' of him.
* Scorponok's Missle coming towards Cheetor has the Maximal symbol on it.

===Technical/animation glitches===
* When Optimus is tossing the time bomb in one hand, it really doesn't move convincingly.
* After Cheetor escapes from the vents, he falls to the ground and his right forehead chevron kind of "twangs" forward. In the next scene he's in, it's back to normal against his head.

===Continuity errors===
* A major plot point is that due to an energon vein running beneath both ships, the destruction of either Predacon or Maximal bases would destroy the other. This is never mentioned again and frequently contradicted due to the repeated explosions at both. While most of the planet's energon was stabilised by the start of Season 2 and so wouldn't be an issue, the plot of Season 1 episode "[[Victory (episode)|Victory]]" revolves around... a massive explosion at the Predacon base.

===Transformers references===
* When Cheetor appears before him, Terrorsaur greets him thus: "Welcome to the dark side!" The episode script reveals that this was simply Terrorsaur being dramatic. However, because [[fandom|Transformers fans]] can be ''incredibly'' literal, some fans speculatively latched on to the idea that Terrorsaur was welcoming Cheetor to the "''Dark Side''", supposedly giving the Predacon ship/base a proper name.
*This bit of [[fanon]] was made official by the video game ''[[Beast Wars: Transmetals]]''. Years later, the ship's name was further codified by the [[BotCon 2006]] story "[[Dawn of Future's Past]]", which dodged [[trademark]] issues by giving it the intentional misspelling "[[Darksyde]]".
* This is what happens when fans are allowed to run things. Seriously.
* Curiously, at no point has anybody interpreted Dinobot's line as suggesting the Maximal base is meant to be called "Enemy Arms".
* Just before he drops him through the waste disposal unit, Dinobot insults Terrorsaur's beaky (and geeky) beast mode by calling him [[Needlenose]], who was a G1 Decepticon Double-Targetmaster.

==External links==
*[http://www.bwtf.com/bw/tvshow/episodes/seasonone/em/emscript.doc The script on BWTF.com]

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

Equal Measures

2009-07-05T01:03:28Z

Fleb: /* Transformers references */

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=4
|image=Equal Measures Cheetor darksyde.jpg
|caption=Later they discovered Cheetor was sitting on the self-destruct button.
|title="Equal Measures"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[September 23]], 1996
|written by=[[Greg Johnson]]
|directed by=[[T.W. Peacocke]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''Dinobot manipulates both Maximals and Predacons around a teleporter that Cheetor has unintentionally developed between both bases.'''

:''Japanese title:'' 時限爆弾転送作戦! (''Jigen Bakudan Tensō Sakusen!'', "Operation: Time Bomb Transfer!")

==Synopsis==
[[Optimus Primal]] watches a bolt of lightning shatter a mountain, revealing a cache of [[Energon (fuel)|energon]]. Because of the hazardous conditions, he radios to his team to abort their current operation. The storm garbles the transmission, though, preventing the other [[Maximal]]s from receiving it.

[[Image:Dinobotbulliescheetor.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Something we've seen all too often.]]
The mission involves energon monitoring devices designed by [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], who has just gotten done building the last of them. Impatient to get going, [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] carelessly plays with one of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]]'s projects, a ''time bomb'', and accidentally drops it out the floor hatch... where it's caught by a returning Optimus, who reiterates his order for the mission to be scrubbed. Everyone's clearly upset over the development, not believing the storm to be that severe yet, but Primal is adamant; it'll have to wait until later. Dejected, everyone returns to quarters to wait out the storm.

In Cheetor's quarters, Dinobot meets with the cat-bot and endorses the mission being continued regardless of the danger from the weather and the energon. He points out that Primal clearly treats Cheetor like a child, even though with his speed, the cat-bot could easily outrun the storm and plant the devices before it hits. This appeal to vanity works, and Cheetor sneaks out to complete the mission.

[[Image:Equal Measures Cheetor monitoring device.jpg|right|200px|thumb|This wireless Broadband box is rubbish!]]
In the field, Cheetor plants survey apparatuses in quick succession, but a bolt of lightning causes the cat accidentally to plant one of the posts dangerously close to an energon vein. He tries to remove the device and correct his mistake, but in the middle of his struggle, a second lightning bolt hits, and he finds himself suddenly teleported — onto a control panel in the [[Darksyde|Predacon base]]!

[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] "welcomes" Cheetor and attacks the Maximal, but Cheetor grabs a hover-platform and tries to escape. After being knocked off the platform, Cheetor lunges at Terrorsaur and pushes the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] onto the control panel he'd just arrived on, causing Terrorsaur to vanish. [[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] and [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] arrive and chase Cheetor around the Predacon base, but lose him in the ventilation shafts.

[[Image:Cheetorsurprised.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Shouldn't have had the vindaloo last night.]]
Meanwhile, Terrorsaur finds himself in the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Enemy Arms]]'' command center, where he's given a warm reception by Dinobot. However, the former Predacon is more concerned over how the pteranodon arrived, eventually working out that a freak combination of the survey devices, the storm, and the energon created a transporter link between the two bases. Using this to his advantage, Terrorsaur seems to convince Dinobot into forming an alliance, suggesting they scrap the Maximals, then take over the Predacons and rule together... until Dinobot drops the charade and unceremoniously flushes the Pred out of the ''Axalon'' through a waste disposal unit.

Back at the Predacon base, Cheetor continues to flee while avoiding fire from Waspinator. He sneaks away from the two long enough to hack the Predacons' data files, and determines that both bases sit on a common underground Energon vein, so an explosion at one base would cause a chain reaction that would obliterate both ships. Cheetor is discovered as soon as he downloads this data to a disk.

At the Maximal base, Optimus confronts Dinobot on Cheetor's whereabouts. Dinobot tells him about the link and how the cat-bot has "surely" been destroyed by now, but convinces him that they could use the link to annihilate the Predacon base with the bomb, a plan Primal only agrees to as long as the bomb's timer is set with enough time to allow the Preds to evacuate. Just as the bomb is sent, though, Cheetor tosses the disk with the energon vein data onto the console, transporting both items simultaneously.

[[Image:Crispyterrorsaur.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Would you like me original, or extra crispy?]]
The Predacons finally corner Cheetor, but the bomb has magnetically locked itself onto the Pred console, forcing Megatron to let him go so he can release it. With a few seconds left, Cheetor throws it up to Terrorsaur, who flies it out of the base (and is blown up with it), while Cheetor escapes through the link. The Predacons' errant shots destroy the console instead. Furthermore, his return trip to the ''Axalon'' shatters all of the survey posts he's planted, ensuring the link is severed for good.

Afterwards, Rhinox and [[Rattrap]] congratulate Cheetor's prevention of the Maximal base from being destroyed by their own explosive, while Dinobot is in a bad mood as usual and leaves—though Cheetor apparently didn't tell anyone that Dinobot talked him into the whole thing. Primal still commands Cheetor to take more care to obey direct orders. Cheetor says he will—except when he doesn't—and scampers off, leaving Rhinox and Rattrap to have a jolly laugh.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Optimus Primal]] (1)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (2)
*[[Rattrap]] (3)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (4)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (5)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s
|c2=
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (6)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (7)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (8)
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (9)

}}
==Quotes==
"Defeating them does not mean we have to ''annihilate'' them. You seem to have trouble understanding that."
:—'''Optimus''' gently chides Dinobot for thinking like a Predacon.

"Shoulda known no Maximal'd be stupid enough to try anything on a day like this."
:—'''Terrorsaur''' underestimates the enemy again.

"Cheetor! Maximi- did that already."
:—'''Cheetor''' forgets that he already transformed.

"He's gone into the vents! You better report this to Megatron." 
"Me?! ''You're'' second-in-command!" 
"So make it an order!"
:—'''Scorponok''' and '''Waspinator''' establish the chain of command.

"Where'd he go?! Where'd ''I'' go?"
:—'''Terrorsaur''' realises he isn't in Kansas any more.

"Think of the cosmic magnificence. Together we'll overthrow these low-grade metal knock-offs you've joined, and then rule the Predacons with two iron fists! NOTHING CAN STOP US!"
:—'''Terrorsaur''' has such naive optimism.

"Hey! What are you doing? We're partners!" 
"In case you had not realized, Needlenose... I am ''not'' a team player." 
:—'''Terrorsaur''', about to get launched over the horizon by '''Dinobot'''

"OK, OK, I'll never do that again! Until the next time."
:—'''Cheetor''' has learned nothing from this adventure.

==Notes==
* Dinobot is kind of a jerk this early on.
* And Cheetor needs obedience beat into him.
* And Rattrap just needs the snot beat ''out'' of him.
* Scorponok's Missle coming towards Cheetor has the Maximal symbol on it.

===Technical/animation glitches===
* When Optimus is tossing the time bomb in one hand, it really doesn't move convincingly.
* After Cheetor escapes from the vents, he falls to the ground and his right forehead chevron kind of "twangs" forward. In the next scene he's in, it's back to normal against his head.

===Continuity errors===
* A major plot point is that due to an energon vein running beneath both ships, the destruction of either Predacon or Maximal bases would destroy the other. This is never mentioned again and frequently contradicted due to the repeated explosions at both. While most of the planet's energon was stabilised by the start of Season 2 and so wouldn't be an issue, the plot of Season 1 episode "[[Victory (episode)|Victory]]" revolves around... a massive explosion at the Predacon base.

===Transformers references===
* When Cheetor appears before him, Terrorsaur greets him thus: "Welcome to the dark side!" The episode script reveals that this was simply Terrorsaur being dramatic. However, because [[fandom|Transformers fans]] can be ''incredibly'' literal, some fans speculatively latched on to the idea that Terrorsaur was welcoming Cheetor to the "''Dark Side''", supposedly giving the Predacon ship/base a proper name.
*This bit of [[fanon]] was made official by the video game ''[[Beast Wars: Transmetals]]''. Years later, the ship's name was further codified by the [[BotCon 2006]] story "[[Dawn of Future's Past]]", which dodged trademark issues by giving it the intentional misspelling "[[Darksyde]]".
* This is what happens when fans are allowed to run things. Seriously.
* Curiously, at no point has anybody interpreted Dinobot's line as suggesting the Maximal base is meant to be called "Enemy Arms".
* Just before he drops him through the waste disposal unit, Dinobot insults Terrorsaur's beaky (and geeky) beast mode by calling him [[Needlenose]], who was a G1 Decepticon Double-Targetmaster.

==External links==
*[http://www.bwtf.com/bw/tvshow/episodes/seasonone/em/emscript.doc The script on BWTF.com]

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-06-24T02:16:23Z

Fleb: /* Oh, hey there */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

'''The server move:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive33|Archive 33]]
}}

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:That's a note, not a quote. The site unfortunately has plenty of problems in IE6, mostly caused by Microsoft's crappy rendering engine. A few of them linger in IE7 too... We really need to come up with a replacement for the messageboxes which doesn't lose the right-hand edge for one thing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description) |(issue number) |(issue title) |(artist list) |(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |letters= |help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |script= |pencils= |inks= |colours= |letters= |help= |year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::With no reported problems from the ppl running Kired Tools, this plugin has been moved to the common file, and is now loaded for all Wiki users.
:::So if anything unexpected breaks tonight please report it here, since the preview script will be the likely suspect. (But we don't expect it to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:53, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's now been said '''thrice''' in this thread that the UK/Eire date is the 19th. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]]
:::::::::::Beg your pardon, then. It was late, and I wasn't paying close enough attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::Damn Americans think they're the centre of the Universe. If I was President of the US, I'd invade the UK and Ireland to protect American Transfan interests. 14:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I read the novel and have this to say: As much detail as is in it, there's no doubt its different. First of all: there's alot more detail so that means some of the slower parts are probably shorter in the movie (novels often do that anyways so no problems there) and also: in one chapter it leads up to fight and then on the very next chapter all of a sudden Devestator appears and is fighting already as if he's been there the whole time (meaning they skipped a chunk of that fight)So as is obvious, there will be differences.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<<not that it matters

==Forgive my attitude but==
what the flying f***! What happened to my account. I made one, I even remember what it looked like. Where is it and why can't I login and my username no longer exsists! What..the..hell. I've not signed in for a long time but I still go here regularly and everything, don't tell me you autodeleted my account! I mean, I’ve been here when it was at Wikia, I moved with you guys here and even made a new account here! Hell, my old accounts on Wikia all got deleted, so please don’t tell me you guys stooped to their level and deleted my account as well! I’ve done nothing wrong, aside from giving the appearance of being inactive because I’ve not logged in within awhile, but so what? What right does that give you to delete my account? (and if by some means it does give you the right to do so, please provide a link proving that)--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<< not that it matters
:[[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Thank you. I'll just make a new account then.-sighs- Forgive if I bothered any of you with what I just said.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
::Don't worry, incoherent rage is the '''proper''' response to the Bookworm crash... you're just slowpoking. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Main page ==

[[Image:Mainpage_analytics-06-05-09.png|thumb]]
I'll just leave this here...

(I'll check in after work and see if anyone has thoughts, I sure do.)

Number are per-individual-link BTW-- so two separate links to the same location have their clickthroughs tallied separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
: In which we learn nobody clicks anything! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::The numbers on the page ''should'' add up to 100%. It's just that a few links get vastly more traffic than the others so they show up as 0%. That might represent a few hundred clicks-- the Main Page ''is'' our most frequented page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:12, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::And people are obviously clicking on [[Kup (G1)]] as the page has gained a thousand hits and jumped 30 places in the Popular Pages list in the last week or so. Any idea what time frame the data covers? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::That was pretty much my thought, too. XD Although it is kind of interesting that some of the categories/continuities/series sections seem more popular than others... it's just hard to tell which ones, since the number pop-ups are in weird spots.
::I also notice that the "images" link in the Editing Tips is popular... and that apparently the fake disambiguation links get some clicks. XD Speaking of which, we really should write up some more of those to replace the rotating ones that got lost in the crash... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:26, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I may have sternly directed people to our Images policy page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:49, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's the most common thing people get wrong, so it's also our most thorough policy document.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::About 8% of clicks on the main page are to our "anyone can edit" but up top-- which just takes people to anchors within the page. (The Editing tips section and the Holy Grails section, which do not themselves then collect a lot of clicks.)
:::::This leads me to think that people who click on these things do ''not'' get what they want/are expecting. We should look at changing those links somehow.
:::::Another 8 % of clicks on the main page are on the "home" logo in the upper left (which takes you... back to the main page) and the "main page" link in the nav toolbar.
:::::If there's agreement, I'd like to set it so that the "Main Page" link in the navigation on the left is grayed out when you're on the main page, so it's clearer that "you're here." (The link would still be usable, it'd just have this visual indicator.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::We could simply de-link the "anyone can edit" links... they just seemed like a good way to get people to actually read our policies and what we need. Or maybe we could link that text directly to [[Help:Contents]] and get rid of the "Editing Tips" box altogether?
::::::I agree with the "Main Page" link being disabled when you're actually on the Main Page. It's pretty easy to do via CSS, and you can also change the cursor to be a regular arrow in CSS to further de-emphasize the links and say, "Hey, dude, you're already ''at'' the Main Page."
::::::Although I had actually thought that 8% of clicks was to the Recent Changes page, which would have made more sense to me. The oddness of where the stat boxes are in relation to the actual page links does make it hard to analyze. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::AS FAR AS I CAN TELL (which in a few cases - the continuities box especially - is less than 100%), these are all the numbers >1.0%:
:::::::*Logo (goes to Main Page): 4.0%
:::::::*"Navigation" sidebar:
:::::::**Main Page link in sidebar: 4.0%
:::::::**Recent changes: 5.3%
:::::::*Fake disambig:
:::::::**"anyone can edit" (goes to "editing-tips" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::**"add to" (goes to "holy-grails" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::*Categories:
:::::::**Characters: 1.8%
:::::::*Continuities:
:::::::**Live-action film: 1.4%
:::::::**Full Series Info: 4.0%
:::::::*Also, the cumulative links to the ROTF page appear to be >1%, even if no individual link is.
:::::::Thoughts on that... firstly, the links TO the main page ON the main page need to be nerfed. Not greyed out, killed. The logo can be just a logo, and the main page link can be replaced or removed. Secondly, there is no way in hell we should delink the stuff in the fake disambig, but redirecting to other places may be a better idea - take the "editing tips" box and turn it into a full page, linked from there (And from the ET box). Not quite so sure on "add to" - a list of stubs that we want filled out, perhaps? The "Holy Grails" box is too specific for 99.9% of potential editors, I expect. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:32, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Useful Extensions ==

Now that we have a working server again and more control over the techie side of things, I wonder if we should start up a list of extensions to install that might be useful.

My own picks:

*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog Extension:Newuserlog] to keep track of new users so we can give them a [[User:Jeysie/NewUser|friendly greeting]]. As opposed to our current status of new people not usually getting much of a "greeting" unless they screw up. :>
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MultiBoilerplate Extension:MultiBoilerplate] to provide a drop-down menu of skeleton codes for new pages. I find this ''incredibly'' useful on my own wiki for being able to easily keep different types of pages all laid out the same, by inserting full page structures into new pages so you can then just fill in the information. For example, [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Template:D20RulesPlayercharacterpage here's one structure page] I use to give an idea of the sort of code you can inset.

:Mine:
:*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Title_Blacklist Extension:Title Blacklist] blocks creation of pages depending on a regular expression.

:I will note that Newuserlog is built into MediaWiki 1.14.0, but we haven't discussed upgrading the software yet... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:25, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

::Honestly, those "friendly greetings" drive me spare. I'd really rather not have them.
::Suggestions:
::*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself] (prevents users or anons editing User:* pages other than their own.) [Beta] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:47, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be fine with blocking anons-- but I ''have'' been known to reach out and tweak someone's user page from time to time.
:::(Not that we've really had a problem with either.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::Why do they drive you spare? Giving new users a heads-up regards our policies ''before'' we have to slap a nastygram user notice on their page seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They drive me spare getting them while doing IP-edits. And chances are you'll get them again, and again, and again... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh! No, no, no. I didn't mean doing them automatically on all new users, I was thinking, like, putting the greeting ''manually'' only for new ''registered'' users. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:09, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

==Rise of the Chevy Autobots==
Allright, I finally got around to putting this up. This is everything I have saved from the "Rise of the Chevy Autobots" online game - flash files, HTML, etc. It comes to nearly 60mb.

[http://www.obscuretf.com/ChevyAutobotGame.zip Chevy Autobots]

Unfortunately, I am most likely missing the last week or two of the story, but I figure it's better than nothing. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 14:18, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:Monzo- I luvers you...
:And AFIK the defeat of Mainframe himself never got a news update-- the epilogue was provided by the game itself. So you ''should'' have the most up to date version.
:Uh, I suppose there might have been a "he's weakening, keep at it" update, but that's pretty content-null. It'd be nice to know the date Mainframe went down... but again, it looks like you've got 99% of everything preserved here. :)~
:And now we can properly cite the Chevy Autobots being allspark mutations! (Or at least a result of Chevy's experimentation with Energon as an alternative fuel source.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::{{quote|'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
::::::::::{{quote|Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

Signed, 
Liz Calkins}}
::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::But like Jeysie said, GFDL ''already'' has those problems, it's a Share-Alike-style license and has all the weird ambiguities that CC-By-SA has for a fandom wiki, so I'm not sure how switching advances the Brave Copyright Cause and exposes TFWiki to legal troubles anymore than the license we're already stuck with? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::^^ This. And, you're still not paying attention to anything else I've said either.
::::::::::Hasbro has control over their copyright. And, to be perfectly honest, in the end Hasbro has full control over ''our'' stuff too anyway because it's technically unauthorized derivative works. I've known several fangames once where the parent company basically made them either sign control of the game over to them or delete the games entirely. What the fangame people wanted to do with their games regards licensing meant precisely jack, because they didn't control the copyright their work was based on. This is exactly the same situation.
::::::::::We can get away with making people not licensed by Hasbro follow our rules regards our content, but that's it. If Hasbro wants to use our content, they have the right to dictate the terms of use, not us.
::::::::::Now, if we were writing entirely original work here that wasn't based on any existing property, ''then'' we could dictate terms, because Hasbro would be using something that we had full copyright control over. ''That's'' where forcing people into using the same Share-Alike license comes into play. But since Hasbro made the initial things we're deriving ''our'' work from, we have to play by their rules for their content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:21, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::But copyright-- even with derived works-- is ''not'' a black-and-white thing with one owner. If I made a "Freddy Krueger vs. Aliens" fanfilm, New Line Cinema can't claim 100% ownership over my work simply by virtue of the fact that they can't claim ownership over aliens. But they ''also'' can't claim ownership over my original character heroine. That belongs to '''me''', not New Line or Fox.
:::::::::::Either New Line or Fox could scuttle my project (if I was insane enough to try and distribuit it) or even keep me from putting it up on YouTube-- because the work cannot exist without their copyrighted characters.
:::::::::::But, even ''after'' that happened, there's nothing to prevent me from re-filming the movie as "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" with my fanchar heroine intact. Despite not having the right to use Fox and new Lines characters... the "value added" elements of my copyright-violating production '''remain my property'''.
:::::::::::And your failure to understand that is what's keeping you fron understanding the implications of SA3.
:::::::::::I freely ''admit'' they're largely '''abstract''' implications, because no one of us or hasbro actually ''cares''... but I also think that this licensing switchover is being pushed by a group with an agenda in mind that boils down to ''"get a lot of people (mainly Wikipedia) to switch their licensing, and watch legal havoc that ensues after a couple years as unforeseen implications start fucking up the copyright of books, TV episodes and movies, making their copyright status so murky, debatable and indeterminate that they essentially become legally piratable."'' and while GFDL might have some of those same problems, '''it''' isn't the license they're urging people to switch to.
:::::::::::So if both licenses are '''equally bad''', I'd much rather stick with the one we currently have rather than switch to the one that's probably going to be challenged in the supreme court 5 years from now.
:::::::::::Or at the ''very'' least have a conversation where the burden is on CC-BY-SA3 to show some ''benefit'' to us for switching, and not on me to prove GFDL is better. Why is our action simply being ''taken for granted'' here? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Well, I understand how ''copyright'' actually works, because I've seen people have to deal with it. I don't understand your comment on the whole deal, no, because it makes no sense.
::::::::::::It's true that if Hasbro objects to our wiki writing about Transformers we could technically re-write it to refer to something similar but different enough to avoid Hasbro's copyright. However, unlike your "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" example, our doing that would be useless. In this case, it's not our value-added elements that make the wiki useful, it's the fact that the wiki is about Transformers. Take away the "about Transformers" part, and our wiki becomes pointless. Hasbro's copyright ''is'' the intrinsic value of this wiki.
::::::::::::So yes, it is an abstract implication, but it's not because nobody cares.
::::::::::::As for why switch, it basically boils down to: if we are compliant with the GDFL, then switching to the CC-BY-SA means we have the same restrictions, ''and'' will also have our info be incompatible for usage with anyone who stays on the GDFL, and we'll be able to require attribution. Basically, it gives us some benefits above the existing GDFL's benefits, without adding or removing any restrictions.
::::::::::::If we're ''not'' compliant with the GDFL due to Hasbro's copyright claims, then it turns out we're not bound by the GDFL anyway, because we never had the legal right to claim that license on our work. In which case, again, we get to ignore all this and switch to whatever license someplace like Memory Alpha has.
::::::::::::But in either case, switching gives us benefits over the current GDFL. So it really is on you to prove why staying with the GDFL is better, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:31, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Whaaat? No, Derik's right. Windmills and copyright do not work that way. J. K. Rowling does not have the right to re-publish Dumbledore/Grindelwald Harry Potter [[fanfic]]. Original owners have the right to stop distribution of unauthorized derivatives, but they don't have the right to anything not already created by themselves. (So that would mean yes, ironically, fanfiction authors could C&D original authors infringing on the fanfiction's copyrights. But somehow I think they would restrain themselves.) 
And if we're violating the GFDL by using it to document Transformers, we aren't then "not bound;" because that would mean our existence is illegal, and we don't get to throw up our hands and say "Well we're already illegal, might as well be illegal in a totally different way!" So no, we can't just ignore everything and switch to any license but CC-By-SA-3.0. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 13:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:I know that Hasbro doesn't have the right to simply go ahead and publish our work without any agreement with us. But, based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner. We don't have the right to force Hasbro to use our work according to certain terms as long as it's a derivative of their work.
:As for our existence being illegal, well yeah, if you want to get technical, we're already as illegal as all other fanworks anyway. I don't see what the validity or otherwise of the contract the work was created under has to do with it, if the contract allows you to do that type of work.
:But essentially, the core of my confusion with Derik's concerns is: I don't see how he could be claiming we can ever force Hasbro to follow our terms on derivative works, when our work is already a derivative of Hasbro's work, and thus we already have to follow Hasbro's terms on derivative work. I mean, it's not that his concerns don't make sense to me from a general perspective. It's that they only make sense to me if we're the originator on top of the derivative work chain, which isn't the case here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:34, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::''based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner.''
::They have the right to threaten or strongarm someone, and the person they're threatening has the right to cave. But they have no ability to "make you relinquish your rights."
::The idea that New Line owns ''everything'' in any work I created means that they'd be claiming ownership not just of my Mary Sue, but also of Fox's Aliens. So that's clearly not true on the face of it. There is a completely unprooven legal theory that a copyright owner could actually ''own'' all the value-added additions made to a derived work... but it has '''literally''' never been tested (because Paramount has no desire to own a lot of Kirk/Spock bondage fics) and there is a strong suspicion that if it ever ''went'' to trial, the entire concept would be shot down.
::Regardless-- you're '''again''' arguing "my experience," and that's the ''fundamental'' source of the musunderstanding here. You're talking about how the law is actually '''implemented'''. I'm talking about what the law '''is'''. In '''your experience''', no one cares if you go through a red light if there's no one around. But I'm telling you it's '''still illegal'''.
::And since the ''kind'' of illegal we're talking about can have a slow corrosive effect on Hasbro's copyrights, that abstract legality could come back to bite us ''and'' Hasbro in the ass. So I'd like to have a real, ''actual'' discussion about this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:54, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Um, the entire ''point'' of copyright is that you have control over how your copyrighted work is used. If you create something using copyrighted work, then the copyright holder very much has control over what you do with it, because you're using their copyrights. Otherwise, why have copyright to begin with?
:::Now, if you remove the copyrighted material from your work, ''then'', yes, the copyright holder indeed has no control over your work, because it has no copyrighted material. Problem is that, while that might help out a fancreator if they can change their work into something original, it does us no good, because the entire point of our wiki is that it's about Transformers specifically. We could technically rewrite it to not be about Transformers, but that would just defeat the point.
:::My ''experience'' is that fanworks are always illegal, it's just that most of the time companies turn their head because usually it nets them more goodwill and publicity than anything the fanwork is taking away from them. But it's within a company's rights to turn around and tell you to either take your fanwork down, change it so it no longer contains their copyrights, or obtain a waiver from them/sign over your rights to continue displaying it.
:::Basically, the reason this is weird is because, you seem like you're saying that we can tell people who create derivative work based from our work how to use it, yet also saying that Hasbro doesn't have the same right to tell us how to use the derivative work we created from their work. Why would we have certain copyright rights, yet Hasbro not have those same rights? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:28, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Ehh, you know what, this is all getting way, way off track. The only real question worth considering that's been raised with all this is whether we had a right to claim our work fits under the GDFL to begin with. If we did, then switching makes sense. If we didn't, then the contract is technically void/annulled, and we need to switch to some new license regardless. Either way, staying with the GDFL itself seems pointless to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:19, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

:I don't trust that table. I dont' feel informed after viewing it, I feel brushed off.
:I think I need to re-read me the full GFDL to do a proper comparison.
:<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I was hoping I wouldn't have to read this thing again. Last time I had drugs to make it better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:20, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, so from what you're saying, the problem with Creative Commons is that... by jumping on the CC bandwagon we might become part of a bigger target in the culture wars or otherwise pull Hasbro into the line of fire, because a CC-licensed thing is more likely to get its day in court someday, because it's popular. Whereas the GFDL, with which we shall stay for ever and ever, will safely gather dust in the FSF's basement for the next hundred years where the light of legal precedent can never touch it.

And also a problem is if Hasbro or its licensees try to reuse our content and unwittingly license their own work under Creative Commons. Honestly, if they make a mistake like that... it's their mistake. It's no different from plagiarizing a random Transformers blog. It shouldn't happen, and it's not our responsibility if someone, somewhere might forget to do due diligence in a hypothetical future. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 21:33, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

===Oh, hey there===
[[Image:Meta-Wikiaccbysa.jpg|thumb|right|250px|]]
Look who else switched to CC-BY-SA. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:20, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Pfft. We shouldn't not switch just because Wikia is.
:I finished auditing the fine print of both licenses last night. (Whoever said the CC one is easier to read: Lies.) I need to digest 'em... I think the GFDL is a better license for where we are ''now'', but CC-BY-SA includes a clause I was ''hoping'' would be in GFDL that might play into future legal wrangling. (Simply because-- it's a license intended to be used by artists, and it doesn't handle our copyright situation well any more than GFDL does.)
:Regardless which one we pick, I think TFWiki needs to do ''something'' unique to better position ourselves, legally. I'm still ruminating what that might be. (Fortunately, we've got time yet.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:41, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::FWIW, I got a reply from the GNU folks, and the CC-BY-SA3 is indeed the only license we can switch to under this particular allowance. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:58, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yes, I got that. They had to amend the GFDL to even make that possible. I don't think we can even make it CC-BY-SA3-NC.
:::So if we ''do'' intend to wriggle around it somehow, it will probably require some vigorous legal calisthenics. (Fortunately legalese doesn't intimidate me.)
:::I just haven't figured out which license is a better starting point for those calisthenics yet. Maybe I'll blog about the subject to get my thoughts straight. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:34, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The full reply, if it helps:
::::{{quote|Unfortunately, the GFDL 1.3 (which enables the relicensing) specifically lists CC-BY-SA3 as the license that a wiki can migrate to, and so that is the only license available under this relicensing provision.

In addition, a non-commercial license is not really a free license, instead it is considered semi-free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#semi-freeSoftware). The GFDL (as well as all GNU licenses) permits commercial use and distribution. While I understand your concerns, being able to use and distribute a work for any purpose, even a commercial purpose, is a part of the freedom that we work towards protecting here at the FSF. Thank you once again for your interest, and good luck with your project.}}
::::--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:46, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Right, any gymnastics would have to take place outside of this licensing provision, which we're not allowed to do.
:::::(Law can be wonderfully fun when you see it as the illusionary cultural construct-- like a monster in a fairy tale whose ''terms'' must be met, but is stupid and easily tricked by turning its words against it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:15, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You see, this is exactly the kind of granola-crunching BS that I'm worried about. "Woo, look at us! We're so clever, Information Wants To Be Free, Fight The Power!" Er, no. Information wants nothing. It's data. It's a thing, an inanimate pile of electron states jumbled up into a system which we can comprehend. We can claim that we Mean No Harm, that we're a Free Information Repository For All Things Transformers, but in the end, we have screencaps, quotes, bios, comic summaries, and roughly 25 years worth of history all crammed into this site. If Hasbro wanted to, they could shut us down '''right now''' just by scaring us with enough of a nasty C&D. I don't exactly see us armed with a high-powered law firm, for one, and second, unless someone in this thread *coughDerikcough* wants to produce a JD and back his comments with '''actual legal expertise,''' we're merely guessing as to what we can and can't get away with. On top of all of that, flaunting what we can theoretically get away with on a public web page with an ideally-infinite revision history means that you've just peed in the swimming pool that is the Internet. Perhaps we can make this all easier by just charging for access, thumbing our noses at the law, and even hosting a torrent of the movie, just to make damned sure that we get dragged into court? Smartassery + Law is a combination best left to those who have studied the practice of law. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Your sarcastiggestion seems like the opposite of what's going on, if the goal's more to "get away with" adding ''more'' pro-Hasbro restrictions to ourselves/the content. And how does their granola-crunching email impact anything? That's them. Not us.
::::::Anyway, I think there's one other plus point to a switch; the CC licenses get updated at a reasonable rate. There's a chance the folks in charge will listen to concerns about fanwork and adopt language into version 4.0 or 5.0 to fit it better-- they seem to [http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/5908 solicit feedback] like that. There's not much of a chance of our use case being relevant to version 2.0 of a license intended for software documentation... ---[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Asking for permission to post links==
I'm the current Bureaucrat at [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com Ghostbusters Wiki], and there was interest in placing links to articles on this wiki to Ghostbusters wiki articles, and likewise placing links on Ghostbusters wiki to articles relating to content which has been brought up. I don't know a great deal of your wikis past dealings, other than wikia apparently kept your old wiki's content when you moved. Anyways, the wiki would rather reference to your present wiki than the one currently at wikia. We are hoping you wouldn't mind the links to our characters on pages related to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Race_with_the_Devil Race with the Devil] article. [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/User:Devilmanozzy Devilmanozzy] 02:10, June 8, 2009 (EDT)

:Can you give a few examples of articles on your wiki which would benefit from having links to this site? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC it's whatshername's assistants-- the ones from the Earthforce story (Running with the Devil?) that Wildman based on the RGB models.
::(I personally have no problem with the links. Though I think this guy added 'em once, misformatted, and they got reverted.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That wasn't Nozzy but Liberal Noob, while not logged in. I told the original guy to take a step back and mind their P's and Q's before we start crosslinking, especially since it was an anonymous IP at the time. But yeah, he wants to crosslink with Race the Devil and Susan Hoffman.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:43, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Only direct link between the Ghostbusters Cartoon and the G1 Transformers cartoon is [[Frank Welker]] sounded like one of his TF roles when he voiced a ghost from time to time. I a am sorry for my wanton linking and it will not happen again. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 22:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant which pages on the Ghostbusters wiki would benefit from having links on them to our wiki. I'm curious, because I regard myself as reasonably familiar with Ghostbusters, and I can't think offhand of any references to Transformers in it. Perhaps in one of the cartoons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks for the replies on this matter. A good user Liberal Noob had requested that I would more address this, apparently the mod needed to say something and form a partnership in order to have links posted related to one anothers material. To answer the question of what articles would be hyperlinked, I believe he was planning on linking to the animated pages for Peter Venkman, Egon Spengler, and Ray Stantz. Thats what I understand is being requested to being linked to.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 19:42, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::We're not wondering which pages on our wiki would link to your wiki. We were wondering which pages on your wiki would need to link to our wiki. We didn't know there ''were'' any Transformers references in any Ghostbusters media, and thus didn't know you'd need to link to us from your wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Race with the Devil]], [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Starscream's Ghost]], [[Horri-Bull]], and a few others. Links will be on is a article on [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters_Cameos Ghostbusters Cameos]. Note I believe that the section will be better built soon.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 20:21, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Seems like there's a few other connections in terms of voice actors ([[Tara Strong]], [[Frank Welker]], [[Maurice LaMarche]] etc) as well. I think linking between the two sites is a good idea. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah I had noticed that too as I looked around here the last few days. Never knew how much Ghostbusters and Transformers had in common.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 23:40, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::While I'm broadly in favour of this, could you maybe change "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" to "[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's ghost]]" - I understand you want to keep the ghost theme going but the first is a link to an unrelated episode of the cartoon series, rather than the character himself. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 07:02, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::OK Emvee, I fixed the link on the Ghostbusters wiki as you requested. Devilmanozzy, ''[[Star Wars]]'' also has a [[Darth Vader|lot in common]] with ''Transformers''. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 14:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::We know, we got named an official friend of Wookiepedia about a week into the [[Project: Bookworm Crash]]. If we hadn't been scrambling to pick up the pieces, our pages would probably reflect this more. (I assume we'll integrate more when Clone Wars starts up again, since we love to attention-whore ourselves that way.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/dan-akroyd-ghostbusterhero/ Here is] an obscure crossover from [[The Real Effing Deal]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:09, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

== Quick Links? ==

You know, now that I think about it, one thing Wikia actually did do right was having some "Quick Links" on the sidebar. I find myself missing being able to quickly get to the main continuities/series without having to search or click to the Main Page first. (Especially now that there's lots o' ROTF toys to keep tabs on...)

Nothing extensive necessary; just one linkie thingy with a fly-out menu for our six main continuities and the full series list would probably work nicely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think notably M.Sipher *really* hated that because any time a cursor went within a parsec of the menu, it would pop out in an annoying manner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::Wasn't just Sipher - it drove me nuts too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, in that case, maybe just an extra sidemenu then, kind of like the "Campaign Navigation" box on [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Main_Page this sidebar]? I just figured that a fly-out menu would save space, but an extra link sidebar would work for me too.
:::But I'd definitely like something. As Abates points out below, we don't currently have any sidebar links for actually ''browsing''. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Could we make so that they're fly-out menus, but that they only fly-out if you actually click on the title? That would save room while avoiding things jumping out when you're waving the cursor around. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think having a link on the sidebar for Revenge of the Fallen would be good too. While the Community portal and Recent Changes links are great for us Editors, they're not likely to be used much by casual visitors. We should be using the menu to draw attention to major articles. While I'm thinking about it, we could probably change the Main Page link to read "Transformers Wiki"... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I went ahead and popped a link to [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] in the navigation menu? I'm thinking between "Main Page" and "Community portal". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not of the upper brass but given the increasing coverage of ROTF as we come down the wire, it'd make the most sense. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 19:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== We need a new adspace ==

The TFwiki on our new server is doing super mega amounts of bandwidth! (Note I've broken up the OPtimus Prime (G1) page, because, dude, that thing was a monster.) So, uh, I think we need to add a new adspace. One that's *above* the fold, since the ones we have are shoved down in the corner where no one can see them. What advertiser would want to dump loads of money on those? What I'm proposing is a 486x60 banner-shaped ad up above the "article/discussion/edit/history/delete/move/watch" links, nestled in between the Teletraan 1 image and the personal toolbar. (You know, OUTSIDE of the content.) If this is a terrible idea, I will also accept $5 donations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:14, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I've no qualms with that. That was one of the "acceptable" adspaces, if I recall from the old discussions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:18, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Long as they don't dance or talk or sing, that'll work. Are we actively pursuing advertisers these days? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:22, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, "actively pursuing advertisers" is somewhat incompatible with our current ad setup. To put an ad on our site now, that requires signing up with Project Wonderful and bidding. This is good for us because it's mostly automated. If we were to set up a "real" in the traditional sense, we'd need a full-time ad pursuer to fill those spots. The best we can do in our current situation is to try to convince Big Bad Toy Store and its ilk to sign up for Project Wonderful. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:33, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:IIRC, above-the-article is what we wanted Wikia to switch ''back'' to. I have no objection. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. How does Ant handle TFU.info's advertising? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

:Doesn't bother me... but can we either put it ''under'' the personal bar, or somehow make it so the personal bar would wrap? Otherwise, I'm staring at the top of my screen and realizing that I'd have an annoying horizontal scroll bar afterwards whenever I'm logged in.
:I have to admit I'm kind of befuddled that we're apparently doing so much more traffic after the move than we were before, to the point of having all those initial problems because we weren't expecting it. Did the new server somehow improve our traffic, it is sheer coincidence that traffic increased for other reasons, or was it more like the old server wasn't keeping track of bandwidth or anything, so we had no idea how we were actually doing? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:38, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Hosting with Bookworm was cheap. I mean, he was doing it at-cost. Or would have, if he ever invoiced us. Now that we've moved on, we're purchasing hosting from people who actually want to make money off us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:41, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, the money's part of it, but I was also thinking about how most of our initial operational troubles seemed to stem from having more traffic to deal with than we realized we were going to have, to the point of even having to run a caching setup I'm guessing we weren't running on the old server. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:45, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The way Bookworm had his servers set up, it was difficult for him to separate out what was our traffic versus what was other traffic on the same server. He gave us an estimate which turned out to be wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Aah, OK. Wasn't sure if it was something we needed to worry about or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:29, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I was kinda expecting this :( I'm cool with more banners, and I think you should beg us for money now and then. We may be able to help when we can. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:15, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Caching is what most mediawiki installations '''do.''' We happened to start off on the most resource-intensive wiki software imaginable, and any stats from Bookworm were not only inaccurate based on whatever he was doing in the logs, but also because back then, ''the wiki was constantly crashing.'' You get zero hits per hour when it's down, and no stats in the world would help clear ''that'' up. I'm still tweaking the hit stats, and it'll be at least a week before I can start extrapolating growth numbers, but suffice it to say, we're going to go over our current bandwidth limit before the month is out, and while we won't get shut down, we ''will'' get billed for overages. Think of it like a normal cellphone plan instead of a pre-paid one. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:47, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, that's mainly what I thought Walky meant. Nestled between the personal bar and the article tabs seems like fertile ground for a banner ad.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:39, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've got the ad code ready to go, whenever we can edit the CSS or whatever to make room. Here is our awesome new placeholder "please bid here" graphic: [https://www.projectwonderful.com/imagewrapper.php?img=img/uploads/pics/20719-1244569575.jpg&rand=439981] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Looks good so far. Potentially odd question: are these particular dimensions popular with Project Wonderful?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::The Leaderboard (700ishx90) and the Big Box (300x250) are the most popular sizes, but those would really ugly up our page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And now it has its first client! That was fast.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Ahhh, Dreamland Chronicles is awesome. I spent a week a few months back reading through their archives after following an ad on our sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One interesting thing looking at the Project Wonderful stats is that our ad hits are ''stabilizing'' now, and they're stabilizing fairly high relative to where they were when the site was still spotty. That's got to look good for advertisers, and if the site holds up to the abuse that the film debut is going to subject it to that's only beneficial to us in the end.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Ptbar-notmeanttobehere.png|thumb|This = bad]]
Uh, I'm using Monobook, and as a result of this, the watchlist/preferences/etc bar has somehow ended up at the ''bottom'' of the page, just above the About Transformers Wiki/Powered by MediaWiki/etc... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got that on a couple of pages, too, and alt+F5ing didn't work. How I fixed it was I signed out and viewed those same pages as an anon. The userbar went back to where it should be, and it stayed there when I logged in again. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Tried that, didn't work.
::In fact, it's worse than I thought, because I didn't notice at first that the page/discussion/edit tabs have gone wandering too, and are floating around the place (the "discussion" and "edit" tabs are currently in the middle of this edit box, and I can't see the others anywhere). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::'''THE PROBLEM IS IN common.css'''.
:::The following CSS borks monobook. This is why you should use the specific stylesheets for each skin, NOT the common file:
<pre>
#p-personal {
position: relative;
}

#p-personal .pBody {
float: right;
}

#p-cactions {
position: relative;
}

#content {
margin-top: 16px !important;
position: relative;
}</pre>
:::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

The new ad space at the top of the page, which was fine yesterday, is now looking screwy in Firefox, with the ad behind the top of the Autobot symbol in the logo and the tabs at the top of the bar. Like so: [[Image:Top-ad-screwy.jpg|thumb]] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:43, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works fine for me in 3.0.10 and 3.5b99, both after clearing cache.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I made some CSS modifications in response to SanityOrMadness's issue, which may cache improperly. Try a hard refresh/clearing your cache. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:51, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, clearing my cache fixed it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

=== Is it working? ===
So, between the new banner and our ad display stats in general being ''much'' better since the server stabilized, does this mean that we're taking in what we need to?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think so! We're averaging about $5 a day, which means $150 a month. Our hosting is... $80-ish? But how much of that $150 we'll have to spend a month remains to be seen, since we're going to be doing a lot more than our monthly allotted bandwidth. And there's a movie yet to premiere! So, uh, we'll have a better idea once the month is over. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:00, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::Assuming we ever end up with more money than we need, David, I suggest you cover yourself in gold. 14 caret gold. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:42, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::If anyone's getting covered in gold, it's McFly and Scout! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, but I can actually imagine you as the World's Biggest Man, resplendent in gold and jewels, laughing maniacally. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I second McFly and Scout being covered in gold. Also what rate are we paying for extra bandwidth? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:42, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

==Consolidate front page?==
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009.jpg|thumb]]
Man, that front banner is huge! Can it be smaller? And when we make it smaller, can we stack up the top-most two boxes next to it like so? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
: The cropped image shown, of course, is just a placeholder. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks about as clunky as Wikia's frontpage, IMO.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:05, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, it's not fine-tuned or anything. Thing is, either that banner's going to be cut down or removed entirely. It's huge, it's bandwidth-wasting, and it pushes all our real content down off the page. What's your choice? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm probably knee-jerking based on the placement of the boxes. I guess it could be made to work if it's finessed a bit. It's not like we're running a ginormous ad there like Wikia was suggesting.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:31, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I dunno, personally I like this new idea. It reminds me of how our franchise navs look: Logo on the left, linkage on the right. Plus, yeah, unlike Wikia, our content on the right of the logo will actually be... content.
:::::As for logo ideas, why don't we make a few different options where it's the TFWiki.net logo over a pic of a single character? We could have one for Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, etc. using the <OPTION> thingy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::As long as the site-name logo thing itself is HUGE. I really want to make sure the URL is shoved in your face. Branding continues to be important as we war against Wikia for Google prominence. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If branding's important, why not change the actual on-every-page logo to use the actual TFWiki.net logo? And put TFWiki.net in the page <title>? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:01, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Alternately, each one could be a group shot from a different franchise, with the font altered to match. Play up how many different continuities there are, eh?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009b.jpg|thumb]]
::::::::This image to the right is what I'm now thinking. And it should probably have movie characters predominantly, at least for the next few months. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm inclined to agree with sticking with the movie characters now, considering it's almost two weeks till the US premiere/release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:19, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

That's pretty darn good. Brings a lot more info above the fold, and the layout's pretty clean. The white background is good too, so any other images in the rotation should follow that example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:21, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:How do we make it done? The table markup on the frontpage is foreign to me. I'll upload the new image itself... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Since Derik doesn't seem to be about yet, I'll have a go with it. Hmm. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, we're really going to have to do something like your first example above, with the Continuity/Category tables underneath each other instead of side-by-side, because trying to fit the logo and the two tables all side-by-side looks hideously awful on a 1024px-wide screen. I tried just simply having the smaller logo, the text notices under it, and the two tables on the right, but it looked kind of... eh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Mrr. OK, I made ''an'' attempt at tweaking, although I think it's going to need some external CSS tweaks at least, if only to center the Continuities table. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looks okay, but the jarring thing about it is that the red and blue boxes aren't the same width, though they share a column.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's something Derik needs to tweak in the Featured box template and/or external CSS... I can't do it just by editing the page itself.
::::::Also, yea or nay on the link buttons? It just seemed a little more "Click me!" than the paragraph o' links. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I dig 'em. Good design decision, IMO. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Quite aside from anything else... what's the point in liking to tfwiki.info with an image link. It ''just about'' made sense as a text link, but is only going to confuse people who click on the Autobot symbol and end up back where they started. We need to cut down on main page-to-main page links, '''not''' obfuscate where they link to. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Visual consistency. (And the mouseover text indicated it was an "alternate URL".) But, I tried tweaking it again. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's fixed! Huzzah!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:46, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I realized I was just approaching it the wrong way. Eheh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

: I'm a little ambivalent towards the "new" logo, just because I think it's a little bland, although I'm sure it's a work in progress. I am all for putting "TFWIKI.net" in the header and all over the fucking place as a branding effort, though. On a slightly related note, I'd consider flipping the "current series" in said box, so ROTF is closer to the center of the page and Animated is on the outside - if we're really trying to bring in ROTF traffic, having that logo front and center is probably a pretty smart idea. I also like the idea of a rotating logo box - maybe we even jigger it so that it links directly to the article for whoever's in it - like the Go! Boxes, but focused entirely on core characters (More Fallen, Movie Optimus, etc., less Irwin Spoon and Dinobots Strike Back). Stick with primary Movie-verse guys for now, and then in a month or so when the hype dies down, we can start to shuffle in some sufficiently advanced and significant articles (making sure that the characters are both important to the fiction and that their articles are nearly, if not entirely complete). [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:17, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds like a good idea. I'm down with that. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Boxswap.jpg|right|350px]]
I has new idea for what module ought to be above the fold, and more ROTF promotiony stuff. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sure, I'd go for it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Considering how crowded and text-heavy the front page is, I think the best way to draw attention to the banner is to surround it in as much empty space as possible, [[User:Magnus Maximus/Temp|something like this]], especially as the new banner's white background assimilates the page's whitespace so easily. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:10, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure how that's really different than it is now, other than putting the site notice at the top... which I kind of hate doing, because that pushes all of the content stuff down. The site notice is temporary anyway.
:I was thinking we ought to make the movie stuff more prominent, rather than the continuity/category modules. I was also thinking of placing the banner, site notice, and external website links in one cell instead of two like it is now, which further creates whitespace... I just didn't think of that until after I made the layout change proposal pic.
:I do agree/think maybe we could stand to lose a few modules, though... maybe ditch the Categories module entirely, and consolidate the Holy Grails and Editing Tips somehow. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:32, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh yeah, you're running a 1024 desktop, aren't you? I changed my res to 1024, and you're right, it really doesn't look much different. But [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3349/tfwikitemp1280.jpg this] is how it looks in 1280, and even that little bit of extra space makes a huge difference compared with how it is [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4606/tfwikinow1280.jpg now] (in my opinion).
::I agree about the notice, but I couldn't think where else to put it. Putting it under the banner (thus between the blue and grey boxes) made it seem wedged-in and out of place. Lesser of two evils, you dig?
::I also agree about making the movie stuff more prominent, but the red and blue boxes are narrower, so they take up less of the horizontal space. I did think that maybe we could change the featured series box so that ROTF is ''on top'' of Animated instead of beside it, and shift that up next to the banner somewhat like it is on my temp page now. That also adapts to 1024 better, I think.
::And yeah, losing some of the boxes would not be the worst thing in the world. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ehh... my problem with that idea is that, one of the reasons we redesigned the Main Page to begin with is because our greeting was so big that it was pushing useful content down below the fold. This sort of recreates that exact same problem.
:::But, I tried tweaking my Main Page design here: [[User:Jeysie/Main Page]] to give more whitespace. I figure that once the movie's been out for a while and we don't need to pimp it as much, we can replace the Featured Characters box with the Continuities box. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:50, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::I was looking at the front page right now and thinking about some things - I'm glad to see most of them are in line with what's already considered. :)
::That said, I suggest taking TFA out of the featured series box, even if only temporarily, and using the [[:Image:Revenge fallen logo.jpg|logo from the franchise page]]. I feel it's more recognisable as the ROTF logo than the more colourful one we have there, plus we can make it a bit bigger.
::I also wonder if we should have "Transformers Wiki" written on there somewhere other than the site logo in the sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

:::: "TFWIKI.net - THE Transformers Wiki"? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:49, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I made up a [[:Image:Wikilogo big.psd|PSD template]] of just such a logo this morning. It's layered, so the transparent overlay of the Autobot leaders is optional.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:18, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I definitely prefer the font of the current TFWIKI.NET logo to that one.
::::::Whatever we ultimately do though, surely we should use the same logo EVERYWHERE, including for the top-left logo, ja? (There's also the recurring thought that we have a G1 Autobot sigil for the top-left logo, but a '''G2''' Autobot sigil for the favicon. I understand that the G2 favicon is unique, which was the main reason we went for it, but if we're thinking about branding...) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Logo===
[[Image:TFwikilogomock.png|right]]
If we want to be movie-centric AND use the TFWiki.net logo extensively for branding reasons, shouldn't we change the Animated-based logo to something more like this? (NB: Quick mock to make a point, '''not''' intended to be actually used, and may clash with the Teletraan on the Monacobook skin). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think we do need to keep some visual distinctiveness. If we go too far into the grey look of the movie we end up with understandable confusion concerning its resemblance to [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monaco-logo.png this].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah. I'm really really fine with keeping our current page design/color scheme. The Wikia site is really gray, and I'd rather not veer to close to that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::[Joke Suggestion] How about we make ours ''on fire''? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:27, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It wouldn't actually be ''that'' hard to do... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Featured-series box===
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series}}
|view=User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
Should we perhaps rebalance the featured-series box to be more like this? (Yes, I know there's a too-high gap between the two lines to the right of the TFA logo. It didn't preview like that, and I can't see why it's doing that.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:That's pretty darn sweet-looking, IMHO. I tried swapping around [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my take on the Main Page]] to include a slightly modified version of it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:16, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::The way it is on the mainpage right now looks really great. Good density of info above-the-fold.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:19, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Or rather on Jeysie's test page, I see now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thing about including [[Main Page/featured-characters]] in it like that (which I just edited to increase the header-size to be visually bigger than the character names, and debold the character names themselves) is that if you separate that from above AND below with a line, you visually make it into a franchise by itself. TFA needs a stronger separator from ROTF than the ROTF stuff does within itself. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:39, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
|view=Main Page/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
How about this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. I added it to my test Main Page with a few minor formatting tweaks. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks excellent to me! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:23, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Are we doing to do this then? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Was wondering that myself. Any more tweaks or suggestions to add, or should we go with my mockup? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:02, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::The mockup looks pretty solid to me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I say go for it! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:46, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Looking again at the featured-characters bit... is Sideswipe really the best choice for that fourth spot on row 1? I already changed Soundwave to Devastator, because the latter has been a LOT more prominent in promos for the movie, but I'm not sure who would be best for a fourth Autobot. Jetfire? Skids & Mudflap? (I'm not even sure if Ironhide is best for the third slot). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:54, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I was trying to think of a balance between which characters were most prominent and which people were likely to be excited about... we could go for Optimus, Bumblebee, Jetfire, and Skids & Mudflap together in the last spot. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:03, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Made that change for now, then. I think "prominence" should probably be the main factor, if we want to grab users. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:14, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

===Featured article===
Now that the featured series box has been sorted... nothing against Kup, but do we have a movie/ROTF article that could possibly take the featured spot at some point between now and the 19th? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[The Fallen]] is at Featured Article status. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::And has been the Featured Article for awhile at A Certain Other Place. I'd rather not mirror them in that respect, personally.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:22, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::In that case... I've got no idea. None of the rest are at FA status, and I can't think of which one would be most relevant to pick on for cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:31, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Surely the three most obvious non-Fallen articles "to pick on for cleanup" are [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)]] and [[Sam Witwicky]], ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:51, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Simmons might be mroe fun. ;)
:::::And Megatron more enlightening, if someone wants to take a whack at his DS-game backstory. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:17, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Looks like Primal Prime is the featured article at that other place, not The Fallen. In fact, it looks like their Fallen article has a cleanup tag, not a featured tag... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:07, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, someone replaced it a couple of days ago after noticing that their "The Fallen" article wasn't up to scratch. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:40, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Any objection to us featuring our superior The Fallen article after all, then? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, on the 24th, the Fallen's page is going up. ESPECIALLY if it's also up at Wikia. Our Fallen page has to supercede theirs, and burying it on the most important week of its life isn't gonna work in our favor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Hell, if we want to upstage 'em over at Wikia, just put [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] as one of the featured characters. I was over there just to see how far the site had gone downhill and it surprised me. They ''don't even have a page for Sideswipe'', it just redirects you to G1 Sideswipe. How sad is that?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 00:13, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:How hard did you look? I wont link it for obvious reasons, but there IS a page for him. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:22, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he got messed up by the fact that the Main Page links to "Sideswipe" without the parenthetical, which does indeed redirect to G1 Sideswipe.
::Having said that, their proper ROTF Sideswipe page is still miserable compared to ours, as is the fact that they got the Main Page linking wrong.
::Not only that... I also noticed that one of their registered users, while editing their Main Page, managed to change their Twitter link to our Twitter in the process. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah I didn't look very hard (alcohol is a helluva thing), the link was what I went for. Obviously someone over there screwed up. You got a problem with it Cattleprod, kiss my shiny, metal ass.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:29, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

===Text Purging===
Next possible round of changes:
I've tweaked [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my setup]] to remove the Categories module (is it really that useful?) and try to reduce/consolidate the Editing Tips/Holy Grails section.

I also think we should do a purge of the Series box and stick to just the "major" series/franchises: Generation 1, Generation 2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, the two movies, and Universe. (Possibly also Classics and/or Beast Machines). We have the comprehensive list linked to for anyone who really wants to look at everything. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:The categories box is useful for two reasons: (1) In and of itself, it's useful. I certainly use it. (2) Without it, your mockup has an empty white space in the right column almost the exact size and shape of the categories box... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:49, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I further note that, [[:Image:Mainpage analytics-06-05-09.png|per Derik's statdump]], it ''gets used''. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:53, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::Well, if you can suggest other ways to clean up our Main Page, I'm all for it. As it is, I agree with Walky that it's getting to be too much of a sea of text, and that struck me as being one of the least useful of the modules. I guess we could consolidate it somehow with the Continuities module as a sort of "Quick Links" box...
::We possibly could also get rid of the Editing Tips and Holy Grail modules, but I kind of hate doing that, as it's nice to try to encourage new editors to look at that sort of information. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::Thing is, if I click on the first link in the Categories box because I want to find a particular character, I get a big confusing list of subcategories and... [[Mickey Mouse]]. If I'm a casual user looking for,say, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], that doesn't help me much, because then I have to hunt through the subcategories for something that looks like it might lead me there. Yes, it's possible that I might notice the search box and use that instead, but that kinda takes away from the point of having that there in the first place.
::Though technically I guess I'm complaining about the organisation of the Characters category rather than the box itself. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

== Jokes? ==

It is sometimes very hard to find relevant information on this wiki among all the juvenile humor. It's a little off-putting for a casual user like myself. I know this wiki is about robots who turn into cars, but, c'mon... Maybe tone it down a bit?[[Special:Contributions/71.107.102.102|71.107.102.102]] 16:56, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

:No. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 17:00, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::If you can point out specific instances where the humor is getting in the way of the information, we'll take those under consideration for adjusting, but on the whole we here tend to appreciate the humor. (Including this editor back when she was a newbie/casual reader.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::As does the overwhelming majority of the readership, it seems. We've gotten praise from all circles for the "do not take it too seriously" approach, even from industry professionals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Tech Upgrades ==

Since we're cracking 1.5 million hits per day, I'm running an alternate webserver for testing over on [http://tfwiki.net:8080/ port 8080.] It's *not* cached, so I expect it to be a smidge slower, but I'm also aggressively tweaking it for better content compression and lower memory usage. It probably doesn't matter *now,* but I suspect that as we close in on the movie, and then as the movie is released and the edits go up, we're going to need to squeeze out every last ounce of performance available to us. That said, can you guys try to break it via logging in/out, editing articles, etc.? It's all on the same database, so any changes made there WILL show up here (and vice versa,) but my major concern is that we don't have those damned login session problems and their ilk going forward. Thanks! --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:05, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:So... an "editing copy" on one server, and a cached copy on another? Because 99% of TFWiki readers aren't editors? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:53, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::Let's not overcomplicate it. Test on the new link, the software driving that will replace the existing (more resource intensive) software '''if it's any good.''' At this point, I want to find out if there are any bugs, and that's that. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got a 405 error when I tried to upload an image on there, but otherwise it seems to be working great. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

=="Wikia wiki" boilerplate==
Between FortMax, Skyjammer and myself, I believe all instances of "Teletraan-I a wikia wiki" etc have been removed from our webpages. Huzzah! Hopefully that will help our Google stats and suchlike, unless I am mis-remembering how those things work... --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 18:31, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:*thumbsup!* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:28, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

== Special:Imagelist ==

Is there any way to strip out the deleted images from [[Special:Imagelist]]? It's kinda useless as things stand. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:11, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Anonymous users ==

Right, the movie goes wide-release in the UK on Friday (I think there may be some previews on Thursday). Thinking about the chaos that may result [and noting that Memory Alpha - much to Wikia's displeasure - disabled ALL editing between the first opening of ''Star Trek'' and its' wide release in the US.]... I think we should give serious consideration to disabling anonymous editing from at least the 18th to the 26th of June.

Thoughts? Objections? Flames? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:I've been advocating that for over a month. It's the same thing we did with Animated: material is blocked for anons until it comes out in America. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::I wasn't talking about blocking specific pages, though (in the way a load of ''Animated'' pages were semi-protected) - just a blanket ban on anonymous editing until ''at least'' the 26th (and I would prefer a week or two beyond that). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:57, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'd much prefer if it wasn't a total block. Block anons on all the movie char character articles, etc. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::Block until a week after the movie's released in the States, namely the chara articles and the film page itself (who knows what poor soul will "unknowingly" put in spoilerific in the synopsis/trivia/notes/what-have-you). It's already difficult enough with the adaptation... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm not just worried about spoilers, but about the casual vandalism associated with a sudden & short-lived spike in visitor numbers, which probably wouldn't be limited to the movie pages. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:10, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::If we do so, should we have a site-wide message like Memory Alpha? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:08, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At least I know we can use [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], I'm not sure whether there is any other similar message. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:37, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::Wow, some serious US-centric bias being spouted. If you don't want spoiled, then don't visit. It's now well established internet etiquette to avoid forums about a week before a film's release. Same should apply here. Or..... wait til the DVD is released before unlocking movie edits, just in case you're stuck in Outer Mongolia at the time of the cinema release. Anonymous editing should be blocked, if only to stop the inevitable trolling and vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 14:07, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Er, no. For one, the 24th is the '''world''' premiere, meaning the vast majority of countries are getting it on that date, not just the US.
:::::::::For two, we need to be able to monitor all edits made to ROTF articles to make sure they're accurate and factual, and we can't do that if most of the wiki's regular editors haven't even seen the movie.
:::::::::So this has less to do with spoilers, and more with the entirely practical aim of being able to keep tabs on all ROTF edits effectively. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:19, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Gosh, thanks, I'll take your advice under consideration.... wait, no, I really won't. If you have a problem with "U.S.-centric bias," you are in the wrong place: this is openly stated as a U.S.-centric wiki. We blocked anonymous edits to the new ''Animated'' episodes that for some damnfool reason were aired first in Dubai, until they were uploaded online for everyone to see. Our U.S.-based editors shouldn't have to stop working on a website that, to a large extent, ''they created'', just out of fear that some collection of I.P. numbers will thoughtlessly spoil the movie for them. Better to just anon-protect all the movie-related pages until after all the major markets have had their premieres. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:12, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

My vote is for blocking all anons from the movie-related pages for at least one week after the world premier, maybe two. I would not be opposed to a site-wide block, however. I really have no interest in cleaning up after a flood of one-timers and trolls and crap. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:23, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hey, I'm all for the lockage. But to stop the wave of trolls that will come. Not because Americans seem to think they have the <insert deity>-given right to subjugate the free speech of others who have the rare opportuity to experience something before the Americans do. That hardly ever happens. America gets everything first; cars, movies, fat, gadgets, first dibs on invasion etc. Thankfully they don't get irony first.[[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 15:38, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Did you even read the post where I pointed out the vast majority of TF fans, both US and non-US, won't be seeing the movie before the 24th, because the vast majority of countries in general aren't getting it until the 24th?
:::Basically, all TF fans not in the UK and Japan aren't going to be getting to see the movie before the 24th. It's not as if we're making editing wait because everyone else is getting the movie early and the US is the only country that isn't.
:::All of our Canadian, Australian, non-UK European, non-Japan Asian, etc. editors are likely equally glad we're waiting. Maybe you should stop and actually think before you go off spouting jerkass strawman accusations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Are you ''intentionally'' aiming for self-parody, or did you actually seriously just try to frame your potentially being locked out of our privately-run, privately-financed web site about giant alien space robots for a few days as a ''freedom of speech'' issue? 'Cause that right there is some serious comedy gold, sir. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:54, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'm afraid there are no Internet Oscars for maudlin self-victimization, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in. Here we only talk about Transformers. You are free to start doing that any old time. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hahaha, did he just equate being able to post to a wiki about cartoon robots for a few days... to the right to free speech? Man, and I thought education was bad over HERE! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:03, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

===One derailment later...===
So, then, back on the subject... I still think we should do it. Mr Anon isn't making me think less of it as an idea. And yes, a [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] would be essential. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:33, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:So, we're all for blocking anons for a week after the 24th? --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:31, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::They're gonna get pissy, but sounds good to me. But what about the editors who can't log in, is that still a problem?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 09:52, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Most likely. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Which editors who can't log in? The problem with IE users not being able to log in was fixed when McFly fixed all the other problems on the site. I haven't heard of any reports of anyone else having the problem... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:32, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's not a case of being technically unable to log in. Its a case of NOT DESIRING to log in because people are at work or at school or where there are shared computers. When I was at school, I certainly didn't want to log in, and a few other people felt the same way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah! Of course. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Transformers Comic" ==

Okay, I've got three issues at present with the titling treatment of the Titan Movie comics:
#Ambiguity - if you look at, say, [[Transformers Comic issue 9]], there's ''at least'' three Transformers #9s with no subtitle - [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|Marvel G1 US #9]], [[Man of Iron!|Marvel G1 UK #9]], and [[Transformers Comic issue 9|Titan Movie #9]]; and currently the only one at "Transformers Comic issue 9" is the Titan Movie issue
#DO we go by issue, or by story? - We're all over the shop on this:
#*The Marvel US issues are all at the story titles, but these pages incorporate any "Transformers Universe" bio material
#*The Marvel UK issues almost all have multiple stories or parts of stories, and I think there may even be some issues with multiple UK-originated/non-reprint stories, and each story is at its' own page, ''which incorporates multiple issues'' (e.g., [[Time Wars]]), leaving aside editorial and other non-story material.
#*The Marvel G2 issues almost all have backups, sometimes nominal, sometimes not, and they're all at the title of the lead/non-"Tales of Earth" story (e.g. [[New Dawn]]).
#*The ''first'' Panini Armada issue is at the story title ([[First Encounter!]]), while the ''rest'' are at "Panini Armada issue X" (e.g., [[Panini Armada issue 2]]).
#*The IDW issues are at the issue title even where the issue is split into multiple, titled. stories (e.g. [[The Arrival issue 4]])
#The actual title of the Titan Movie issues - Titan Movie v1 #22-25 are actually titled ''Transformers: Universe'' #22-25 (mostly in reflection of it absorbing the cancelled ''Animated'' comic), but are still at "Transformers Comic issue XX"; while v2, titled ''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' #XX, is at the truly bizarre "Transformers Comic 2.XX". Really, just because the letters page said 2.x once, rather than "Revenge of the Fallen (Titan) issue X", which is what's on the cover?
What are we doing with this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:As I've said before, I do NOT favor consistency here. A one-size-fits-all approach will inevitably fail to encompass the widely variable situations with various comic series.
:The Marvel US book are under the story titles because, for all intents and purposes, the story and the issue are one and the same. Likewise for most of Dreamwave's G1 run. Sure, we could move 'em all to "The Transformers issue 2 (Marvel US)", but what do we ''gain''? How is this any better than "Power Play!"? What is the benefit? Mere consistency is insufficient reason.
:This is much, much less true with the UK comic, where stories were broken into two and even three parts, and multiple stories shared page space in the same issue. Now, I've heard rumblings to the effect that each UK issue should have its own page, and there's merit to that, insofar as each issue's contents are a mixed bag - minicomics, letters pages, and pieces and parts of various stories. It might make sense to have a page for each issue, basically a list of its contents, with ''See main article'' links to the entire story -- so, say, UK #88, #89, #90, or whatever, all link to a single page for "Target: 2006".
:With G2, it absolutely makes complete sense to combine the two stories. The "backup" strips are such in name only; they are absolutely integral to the main strip, and neither can be read without the other. Separating "Tales of Earth" bits into their own pages is only going to confuse things and make them ''less informative''. Furthermore, the main strip clearly ''is'' the MAIN strip. It makes sense to cover the whole story under that strip's title. Our current system for G2 acknowledges this, while still distinguishing between the contents of each section. The alternative is to move each page to "Generation 2 issue 2" or whatever... and I don't see what we gain by doing this.
:The Titan comics should be moved to whatever the cover and indicia call them. If they're just ''Transformers'' or something equally generic, well, that's what parenthetical disambigs are for. Likewise for the ROTF reboot. A simple (Titan) should cover the bases well enough, yes?
:A recent trend has been issues with 2 discreet stories, such as the ''Animated'' books you mention. I've long been in favor of having a single page for the ''issue'' for such books, with ''See main article'' links to the individual stories within them - so "Animated: The Arrival issue 2" would be a list of stuff, with two prominent links within to pages about the two stories it contains. Still, I can understand if people see that as unnecessarily messy -- so long as they can agree that, since the stories are pretty much co-equal, it would make no sense at all to give one or the other naming precedence.
:So, that's my take. Case-by-case basis FTW, baby. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:43, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:Also, to address item #1 specifically... if we do stick with "Transformers" as the title, there should be a disambig note for Transformers at the top. Unless "Comic" is in the title, it shouldn't be in there. I'm thinking the article names should be "Transformers issue 1 (Titan)", etc., with the parenthetical at the end of the page title, rather than the middle.
:These books generally have stories from different continuities, don't they? That's a point in favor of separating the story content out from the containing issue. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

::Personally I've been using "Comic issue" because that's what the pages were before I started adding to the wikli, and "issue 2." stuck with the former way of numbering things (and was easier to type...). If naming them after the title (so from #22 it's Transformers Universe or Transformers ROTF etc) would make more sense, I'd be happy to go with that.
::As for whether or not to have specific issue or story pages, I'd say if we're going to have individual pages for each issue of IDW and Dreamwave miniseries (not to mention multi-parters in the cartoons), it wouldn't make sense not to for Titan. There's already a precedent that if we do this for post-Marvel comics. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] 20:25, 19 June 2009 (GMT)

== Non-movie (Movie) characters vs. movie (ROTF) characters with the same name ==

Anyone else think we should, at the very least, have {{tl|disambig2}}s on pages like [[Jetfire (Movie)]] and [[Mudflap (Movie)]] to the ROTF characters of the same name? Yes, I realise users could go via the disambig page, but I see it as making things simpler & easier for newbies, and in that scenario one click is always better than two. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think I'd cautiously support adding a <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki> for characters of the same name within the same continuity if there seems like a good chance for confusion. I'd oppose imposing it as an across-the-board standard though. (You're nto suggesting that though.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I oppose it on the principle that multiple disambig templates on a page is ugly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:47, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ugly, and you can get to where you need to go through the disambig. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Here's the thing though - '''is it intiutive''' for a complete newbie, who came in via ROTF, to see "Optimus Prime (Movie)", "Bumblebee (Movie)" and "Megatron (Movie)" '''and not immediately conclude''' that the Jetfire article will be at "Jetfire (Movie)", rather than some incredibly obscure card-puzzle that even we don't have a final picture for?
:::::Hell, even take it a step up from "complete newbie" to someone who sat through Beast Wars/Machines or Armada/Energon/Cybertron, where characters changed bodies between series so that they had very little resemblance to their prior selves (in the UT's case, without any explanation). Those guys might assume that "Mudflap (Movie)" *is* Skids' twin even if he bears no resemblance to him. And it was a guy making that exact mistake and getting reverted by you last night that caused me to post this.
:::::I really think a BIG, prominent link DIRECTLY from the obscure (Movie) character to the prominent (ROTF) character is required. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:26, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::As long as there's a link to the same-universe namesake in the intro, I see no need for an additional disambig template. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:21, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on that note, I added just such a line for [[Mudflap (Movie)]]. It seemed especially appropriate for him, since he's an Autobot wannabe who precedes an actual Autobot of the same name. That having been said, though, I don't dislike the [[:Template:disambigrotf]] template you cooked up, Sanity. It's a little unwieldy, but it's probably as succinct as such a thing could ever be. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I did the same for Jolt, who had the wal-mart version for the first movie and it was deleted... I was told "that's what disambig is for." [[User:Cliffjumper prime|Cliffjumper prime]] 01:12, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, I'm generally in favor of intro-links because they allow for a bit more elaboration. If it's just a disambig, then we're presenting the characters as though they are definitively separate individuals with no connection to each other, even though in most cases there's just too little evidence to say one way or t'other. The absence of information is, itself, noteworthy. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I favour user-friendliness over concerns about how ugly or pretty it makes things look. I think those of you arguing about how ugly it makes things look and disambig3 doing the job are working under the assumption readers are fairly knowledgeable about how this wiki operates. I find that attitude to be rather unhelpful and presumptive. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Indeed. I still have a problem with not redirecting [[Optimus Prime (Energon)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Armada)]], [[Optimus Primal (BW)]]->[[Optimus Primal]], [[Optimus Prime (ROTF)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], etc. It seems almost ''wilfully'' inconsistent to not have an equivalent parenthetical available for every character in a series to aid in newbies' browsing & editing. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:01, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't like the expanded ROTF disambig box. I like how Charles RB did it on the [[Sideswipe (Movie)]] page. A little tack-on to the continuity note. Although in Sideswipe's case I think the pages could actually be merged. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::As opposed to assuming that every reader is retarded and can't figure out [[Jetfire (Movie)]] is not the same character as [[Jetfire (ROTF)]]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Go look at pictures of the UT Hot Shots and get back to us (NB: First example which leapt to mind, but by no means the only one).
::::::::::It's not as if there isn't precedent for stuff without any real resemblance to each other to be randomly declared the "same character" in Transformers. Especially since "Jetfire (Movie)" is no character at all - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:32, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::Why on god's green earth would someone look at a page called "Jetfire (Movie)" and assume that they have NOT found Jetfire from the live-action movie series? Why would the expected, logical, inevitable response be, hey, there must be another guy by the exact same name in the movie series! ? That's like, the exact opposite of retarded. It's unretarded. It's ''logical''. The truth of the matter, that there's two guys in the same continuity with the exact same name, doesn't make a damn lick of sense.
::::::::::Assumption of prior knowledge is a rampant problem in this fandom. Around here we're supposed to be smarter than that, though! We should be able to step back from our microscopic inspection of things and say, "Hey, this whole deal really is retarded. Let's clarify it." Thus I am ''heavily'' in favor of liberal disambiguation. Not only does it make things clearer for the reader, it also increases the chances of the reader working their way into the obscure backwaters of the site -- which is what we want, is it not? If it makes the page look "ugly", well, that's OUR problem, isn't it? Why should the reader experience suffer because of a shortcoming on our end? Maybe we need to expand our diambiguation template options, instead of rejecting the notion on aesthetic grounds. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 16:14, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'd agree with not keeping this in the disambig. Though I see pages that had it outside the disambig section have been edited, so I presume it's now the policy to keep the information there? -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] 00:56, 20 June 2009 (GMT)
:::::::::::Well said. I agree without reservation.
:::::::::::And on that note, I'd not only like to see more liberal redirecting (really, if "Optimus Prime" appears in ''Energon'' there is no way on Xal's green Earth there shouldn't be a valid [[Optimus Prime (Energon)]] page, even if it's just a redirect), but ALSO a general desnarking of mainpics (not captions, the ''actual pictures'' themselves) - stuff like the "self portrait" on [[Grimlock (G1)]] or the Cyber-Slammers pic on [[Brawl (Movie)]] (why... I mean WHY?!) only - and I quote from {{tl|desnark}} - "interfer[es] with the delivery of information on th[e] page." Have the pics on the page, sure, but NOT as a mainpic. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::That Cyber-Slammers pic will be removed over my fucking dead body. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why?
:::::::::::::No, really, why? The jokiness is stated, in an official policy, as being '''all right as long as it doesn't replace something more useful'''. The whole point of a main pic is that it's the ur-version of a character, the single most representative version. If you need a pic of the character to show off how it would look in most people's minds, it would be a strong candidate if not a shoe-in.
:::::::::::::Other than you, WHO THE HELL WOULD THINK OF THE CYBER-SLAMMER FIRST?! - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:22, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I don't see why the Cyber-Slammer image is anti-information. It's a perfectly good image of Brawl/Devastator! Just not one that you particularly like. And it's not just me. It's not like I put the image there! The only people I've ever seen speak out against the image are you and random anons. So there. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:24, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::The only problem I see with spare diambigs like "Optimus Prime (Energon)" is that if you're typing in "Optimus Pr" into the Search box, a list of "Optimus Pr*" pages is gonna come up. It's already a long list, limited by our software to 8 results. With the extra disambigs, potentially useful results might scroll off the list entirely.
::::::::::::As for the images... eh. We're not *that* rampant with the jokey images. More importantly, you can scroll down Grimlock's page and quickly see lots of pictures of him across various media. The main pic isn't significantly inhibiting the flow of information, IMO. For Brawl... we *could* use a few more full-body shots of him near the top of the page, last time I checked at least. -- [[Special:Contributions/99.151.96.72|99.151.96.72]] 18:11, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Redirects are automatically flagged in several ways by the software - is there really no way to either exclude them from the search suggestions, or (preferably) just throw them to the bottom of the pile?
::::::::::::::Yes, but every time I've suggested doing ''just that'' instead of the zealous (overzealous, IMO) purging of redirects, someone comes up with like 3 examples where "we ''really'' want this redirect to show up." And those 3 examples somehow outweigh the 3000 links you ''don't'' want in the search suggestion box. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:26, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::And no, we're not "that rampant" - all the more reason that we shouldn't be doing it at all. Like I say, the whole point of a main pic is to show the single most identifable version of the character in one shot. The two examples I mentioned (I'm sure I could find more, but those are the two which stick in my head) are completely the opposite - a kid's-scrawl "self-portrait" from an obscure 5-page B&W Marvel UK backup, and a version of a character that barely resembles the movie/fiction model. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:22, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::WHERE WILL SOMEONE FIND A PICTURE OF GRIMLOCK IF NOT AT THE TOP OF THE TFWIKI ARTICLE?! -[[User:LV|LV]] 20:09, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::I withdraw my "ugly" comment now that we have the disambiguations melded into a single table. I just didn't want a tower of them. I see no reason for not doing it this way we're doing it now. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:29, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Wanted Pages" clean-up ==

The Wanted Pages list is cluttered with links to pages that... aren't wanted at all. There's a big chunk of that list that are actually just links from discussions, along the lines of: "I don't know if this is the right name for this page. How about we name it 'Alternate name 1' or 'Alternate name 2'?". There are also quite a few links that come from userpages, that do nothing but clutter up the list; "My favourite tv shows beside transformers are 'Beavis and Butthead' and 'Batman'."

All these unnecessary links make the Wanted Pages hard to navigate through at times... Creating pages that appear on that list is the main way I contribute to this wiki, but it's getting harder to do so when half the links I find there aren't necessary. However, it felt quite rude to just go into someone's userpage and edit what they had written about themselves, or change other people's words in a discussion. Would it be ok to actually go through these pages and tweak them a bit? Like just killing the links themselves? Or for something along the lines of the user's page, just changing the links to an outside site, such as Wikipedia?

Additionally, it'd be nice to encourage people not to create random links like this all the time... I'm sure if you put quotation marks around your suggested link name, people will understand thats a link you're suggesting, you don't actually have to create a link that goes nowhere. Any opinions? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:50, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]]'s been doing this sort of thing already, so I don't see why it'd be a big deal.
:If you're worried about userpages, and you see the person's still an active editor after checking their contributions, you can always just leave them a quickie note about the matter on their talk page. (If the person ''hasn't'' edited in a long time, I'd say just go for the change yourself.)
:Plus, there's no particular reason why you'd need to actually change a person's words: you can either just remove the link, or create a piped link to the correct link, whichever is more appropriate.
:Also useful would be going through and fixing any links that are spelling errors or alternate ways of linking to an already existing page or already "wanted" page. I try to do that myself from time to time, but they're not always easy to catch, especially if they're for people/things I'm not familiar with. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:22, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

== Doctor Braxis/Doctor B ==

[[Withered Hope]] has a redlink for the Go-Bots Dr. Braxis character, but apparently he is only identified in the actual story as "Dr. B." Two questions:

1) If I start the article, should it be as "Doctor Braxis" (what we know is his real name, and what the redlink already points to) or "Doctor B" (which, technically, is all he's called in TF fiction)? (such as Nick Fury vs. 'Nicholas')

2) How much non-TF info on the doc would be appropriate to include in said article? Especially as there's no GoBots wiki as there is for, say, Marvel, Star Wars, or Godzilla that I could provide an external link for...

I know that when it comes to crossover stuff, most every Wiki has their own policy on handling it, so I just wanted to check. Thanks in advance! [[User:Thanos6|Thanos6]] 04:54, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:I'd create it at "Doctor B". Then give the "Fiction" section that explains his role in Withered Hope. Then a "Trivia" or "Real world' or some such section that explains "This guy is Doctor Braxis, he was a bad guy from Go-Bots." I'd say err on the side of too much info and then we can edit it down. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 09:09, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

== Proposal: Reorganizing movie character pages? ==

The general arrangement of the fiction sections for the movie character pages has... not ''annoyed'' me, per se, but made the back of my brain itch for a little while now. They take an approach of ''trying'' to present all the events that happen to a character in a chronological order, which is a laudible goal, and an approach taken in many, if not ''most'' other pages of the wiki, and one that in those other situations, I generally advocate. However, becuase there are so many different pieces of ancillary media for the movie, which take place before, during, after and ''aaaalll'' around the movie and ''each other'', they're getting very muddled. The "Titan" seciton is often placed before the section for the first movie, since it begins in the past... but then has to summarize events, including its alternate timeline, which take place ''after'' the movie... before the movie's event have been related in the article. You follow me? Further, I feel that this approach tends to create the appearance of one cohesive timeline, and we all know that's just not true - there are innumerable discrepancies between the movie and the ancillary media, and - avoiding any spoilers - ROTF is one of the worst examples of key parts of the movie's backstory conflicting ''wildly'' with what the ancillary media has said. So, I think that a more divisive, clinical approach is necessary, and I've quickly knocked up [[User:Chris_McFeely/ROTF_proposal|this]].

I think that the movies should be the first thing on the page, just there, on their own. They are the core of this universe and its characters - they are the pieces of fiction around which ''all'' the others are written. Everything takes the movies as its starting point and works backwards or forwards from there. Making them the first thing on the pages frees us up to more freely explore past and future depicted in other media. Also, I'm in favour of just making sub-sections for "IDW continuity" (again, the discrepancy between what the IDW comics have shown and what is actually in the ROTF movie is prompting this line of thought), and describing the eventts of all of its comics in one, long section, rather than splitting in two like we had it before, is preferable. As a follow-on from this, Titan gets its own section, with a sub-section (a la "Marvel UK future timelines") for its alt. universe, rather than just a note, making the division between the stories a lot clearer. Also, it removes the need for odd notes like the one on Scorponok's page which has to mention that he only dies in the Titan comics and nowhere else - now, it should be obvious, because the continuity has been isolated instead of interspersed with all the others. The prequel novels are about the only thing I'm not sure on - I haven't actually read them, so I don't feel capable of making a decision, and have just put them under their own heading like this for now (after the movie, but before the comics since surely, more ordinary people on the street have read the books than the comics?). Could they potentially just be put under the "Movies" header, around the movies themselves, or do they feature any major conflicts?

Right, then. Thoughts? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

:I agree. How does Wookiepedia arrange all that ancilliary stuff I wonder? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:15, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::As the person who has been doing the most work on the movie articles on this wiki: I am not really enthused with the idea of rearranging the articles and re-learning how to deal with them. A few months ago, I determined the layout of the fiction sections (with the exception of the Titan stuff) on the assumption it is in one rough continuity (continuity errors and contradictions and all), and nobody objected, probably because nobody cared very much about movie fiction at the time. In my mind, if you ignore the Titan section, from start to finish, it reads reasonably well. May I suggest we just fence off Furman's Crackpot Titan Continuity? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:11, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::FWIW, I don't think the IDW Prequel comics from the first movie are supposed to be in-continuity with RoS/Destiny. (Or at least, I don't think Mowry used them as references, just the scripts for the movies, so if it all matches up it's kind of coincidental.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 10:28, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::IDW has stumbled over its own prequel material continuity twice, which is not encouraging. The Planetfall story contradicted the first prequel which established the Decepticons landing in America, and then The Reign of Starscream contradicted Planetfall by showing Starscream's crew getting to Mars via starship, not by [[transition form]]. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:37, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

::::I remember at some point saying, verrrrrry explicitly, that there ''will'' be errors and contradictions and inconsistencies and multiple timelines in the Movie fiction -- I believe it was back when someone or other was arguing in favor of integrating ''Reign of Starscream'' et. al into the main movie summaries, and italicizing them like we do with the UK comics. It seemed like a bad idea then. Sounds like a bad idea now. Sorry if my protestations weren't fervent enough to register at the time.
::::In general, our approach is and should be to divide up a character's appearances by media source. There are exceptions to this rule (UK comics, Animated comics), but they should always be approached with caution. I don't think the multi-timeline-spawning film series is a good candidate for this approach. Derrick Wyatt knew what was going on with ''Animated'', but I doubt that Michael Bay really gives a crap about ''Alliance'' or whatever else. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:44, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's not really the issue, though, Rob. We already ''do'' have the fiction broken up by media source - I'm just advocating a rearrangement of the ''order'' in which that fiction is laid out in articles, to make the individual, splintering "continuities" a bit more individual. Really, I'm not expecting a conclusion right away - I'm raising this now so we can get a bit of discussion going before ROTF hits in the US. Because I gotta say, I think the sheer failure of the IDW ROTF prequel stuff to line up with ''any'' of the backstory in the film will help convince folks that this is a good reason to go down this road, but it will require you Yanks (and Aussies!) to see the film to decide first! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:51, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::It boils down to... when reading RoS and Destiny, you're supposed to treat the movies as part of those comics' timeline, as they're intended to fit, not be deliberately AU like the Titan stories apparently are. Hasbro had certain elements be changed because they would clash with the movies, and so on, so there was at least ''some'' attempt to make it somehow fit together. The Movies are an integral part of the RoS/Destiny continuity.
::::::However, apparently the converse isn't necessarily true: the movies may not treat RoS/Destiny as part of ''their'' timeline.
::::::So... *shrug* Structure that as you will. And the IDW Prequel comics are off doing their own equally separate thing regardless. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:00, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Don't forget about prequel novels. I prefer FFN's proposal but I would definitely mix in [[The Veiled Threat]] fiction as happening near the end of Alliance. IDW+films seem to make up the backbone of the continuity, but maybe that isn't fair to the Titan comic. To be honest, from what I've heard, I'm prepared to treat the ROTF film as a micro-continuity, at least for my own fanon purposes. The adaptations seem to match the prequel material fairly well. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:43, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
:Something to consider - the fact that The Veiled Threat, a novel from a writer(s) and a publisher who has nothing to do with IDW Publishing has taken pains to ensure it fits (more or less) within the continuity of The Reign of Starscream and Alliance suggest that somebody, somewhere, most likely Hasbro, wants us to consider the prequel material (excluding Furman's Alternate Universe stuff) as one single continuity, and to address contradictions and continuity errors as we come across them. That's my view of the movie articles and how we should do them. Without the prequel stuff, you'd just get several fenced off sections where "Stuff just happens", and that's why off-screen material exists, to explain or expand upon things that cannot fit into the movie or episode because they're too complex or too geeky for the audience. This wiki exists to tell people what happened off screen or why Bay's movies are so incoherent, and the way I see it, if we fence off Furman's UK alt-universe stuff, it more or less fits in together, and you get a decent story out of it. Sorry to ramble. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:56, 21 June 2009 (EDT)
::Here's the simple answer-- document the movie as it's own thing, and in the IDW section, use the IDW movie adaption as a stand-in for the movie, with all the retcons, mucked-up timelines, etc. Best of both worlds. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:41, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant leaving the damn articles as they are, except for fencing off Furman's stuff. I'm not about to track down those adaptation comics to (essentially) tell an abbreviated version of the same story already detailed in the same articles. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

== Representing the tfwiki at an IMAX premiere? ==

I've managed to get myself into an IMAX premiere or screening of Revenge of the Fallen tonight, and the promotors/Hasbro want to do a photo op/press thing with aussie fans. Should I like, hold up a sign that says "TFWIKI.NET THE TRANSFORMERS WIKI"? Or would that bring down unnecessary official scrutiny on us? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 22:19, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:Yeah, thanks for your advice, guys :/--[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:01, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Do you have a "decaf" setting? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well the promoter let us know at the '''''very last minute''''' so plans are rushed. I have to time manage this thing with the free time of other people I am probably going with. Because frankly, the only reason I'd want to do the photo thing for the promoter is to represent the wiki, and if I was given the go ahead by you, I would have endeavoured to turn up if at all possible. I hope you at least appreciated that dedication to the wiki. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:25, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh, and another thing - we were invited due to our association with Ozformers, but instead of promoting Ozformers, I want to promote the tfwiki. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:27, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Guess you know where your bread is buttered! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:34, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:Hell, give of us a break, it hasn't even been an hour. I say do it, give us some representation, it might help us in the Google rankings and get us past the craptastic Wikia.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 23:05, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Not good enough, Jan. *folds arms* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:14, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::Doesn't Hasbro kind of know about us already, seeing as how they answer questions from us every other month and their licensees send us pics and stuff sometimes? It's not like they're not scrutinizing us already if they're gonna. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:10, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Now I gotta make a sign... --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:14, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Try the Universal Greeting Dance. They'll reciprocate. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:32, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Or they'll try to eat you! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Is our motto "Transformers is Serious Business"? Or am I associating Shortpacked!'s motto? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:44, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"Toys are serious business" is a Shortpacked! thing. I don't think the Wiki has a motto. The one on the Twitter feed is "We know more about Transformers than you." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:51, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::That sounds a bit confrontational, though, like people may not realise we aren't being aggressive or jerkish. Hasbro AU and Eric Siebenaler thought it was funny when I interrupted somebody complaining about Robot Heroes and Mighty Muggs by saying "Transformers is Serious Business". --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:08, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Considering how many TF creators use us as a reference as of late, I feel like it ought to be "We know about Transformers so you don't have to."
:::::::::But I have to agree that something like "Transformers is serious business, yo." would make for an amusing sign blurb. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:37, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::"Transformers are serious business" is thrown around as a joke a lot, but I don't think it's actually our motto.
::::::::*TFWiki.net: We know more about Transformers than you want to.
::::::::*TFWiki.net: Cooler than Star Trek, not as cool as Star Wars
::::::::*TFWiki.net: Great, there go 4 hours of my life
::::::::*TFWiki.net: Nerdgasm Evolved
::::::::*TFWiki.net[1]
:::::::::[1] amusing footnote
::::::::*Transformerology: Finally, a degree you can use in real life.
::::::::*TFWiki.net: serious intellectual debate about transforming space robots
::::::::*TFWiki.net: Disambiguiously Gay
::::::::*TFWiki.net: A Gold Standard of Geekdom
::::::::*TFWiki.net: Amazing and Kinda Scary
::::::::-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:44, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I've chosen the serious intellectual debate and we know more about TFs than you want to, as it fits my sense of humour. I'd do more signs, but I am the only TFWiki guy there, so two signs is already pushing it, and there's every chance they'll just crop the sign out or tell me to put it away. Cheers, guys. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:58, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Incidentally, I ''love'' "serious intellectual debate about transforming space robots." Also:
::::::::::* "TFWiki.net: Remember that one guy? He was so cool!"
::::::::::* "TFWiki.net: We remember who Groundshaker was, so you don't have to." (alternately: "TFWiki.net: Who the hell is ''that''!?")
::::::::::* "TFWiki.net: Come for the information, stay for the inevitable flamewar about funny captions."
::::::::::* "TFWiki.net: Unhealthily fixated since 2006."
::::::::::* "TFWiki.net: Because you're just ''dying'' to know what they called Thundercracker in Hungary." [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:41, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::I just got back. I have no idea if the sign got into pics or not. However, I am pleased this discussion spurred creative ideas in potential official slogans for the wiki. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 09:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::"Come for the information, stay for the funny." has a certain ring to it. As does "We remember who Groundshaker was, so you don't have to." Or "Revering and ruining your childhood all in one website." --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:33, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

==Meanwhile, in other promotional exploits...==
I was interviewed this morning for the [http://www.fayobserver.com/ Fayettesville Observer]. Soon North Carolina will know alllll about Shortpacked!, our wiki, and Starscream's French-Canadian name. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Totally read that as "Fattysville". Home of the BBQ Double Stackticon! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 13:21, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

== Ridiculous Transformers ==

The StreetLevel blog recently posted a list of the [http://www.streetlevel.com/2009/06/04/the-top-10-most-ridiculous-transformers-ever/ Top 10 Most Ridiculous Transformers, Ever].

It is very dumb. I want to counter with a ''better'' list.

Anyone have any suggestions? Legion and Pepsi Convoy are already a lock. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
: It hurts my braaaaaaaaain. (And don't forget there's a Megatron that transforms into a shoe.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:18, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:: And [[Esmeral]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Piano Transformer guy?
:::Is this just for ridiculous transformations? Are there any in-universe guys who are ridiculous?
:::...I'm ''so'' putting Drift on this list. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Don't be that guy, man. You might as well start adding Nightscream and Wheelie. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:25, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::They have redeeming features. Drift is Poochie. "Designed-by-committie awesome" ''always'' looks ridiculous. He's not just a traitor or a samurai-- he's an albino-japanese-streetracer-taciturn-former-Decepticon-honorbound-samurai-ninja.
:::::So then I hope you're putting Animated Prowl on that list, too! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:28, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Much less ridiculous than Drift. I am adding [[Break]] though. There are more ridiculous transformers, but "Penguin Antagonist Naruto" is easy to shorthand. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:51, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'll give him a fair shake and note he hasn't been that annoying in the fiction itself... but in ''concept'' he's clearly ridiculous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:28, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looking at that list, I'm assuming that "ridiculous transformation" is the one major factor. I could nominate [[Signal Lancer]] and his friend [[Pay phone refugee]] on that criterion.
:::::If we're going for the whole package, [[Misfire]]'s gotta be on there somewhere. I have a big soft spot for the fellow, but there's no getting around a Con that can't shoot being ridiculous. Plus he's the only male TF I can think of off-hand that canonically has ''pink'' as his main color. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:43, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Sky Lynx (Energon Wars)|''Energon Wars'' Sky Lynx.]] He's pointlessly obscure, to boot! (And yes, definitely the Victory Decepti-wives.) [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 16:15, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

:Eh, their focus seems to be different than ours. They're internet hipsters mocking things you thought were cool when you were a kid (something that's in plentiful supply on the interwebs). They're not looking very deeply, and have constrained themselves to US G1 because that's all most people even remember exists. So it plays to their target audience, rather than people that actually pay attention to the brand.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:35, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::True, but I've always been of the firm belief that if your parody doesn't focus what actually ''is'' wrong/stupid about the thing you're picking on, instead of just generic put-downs, you should step back and let someone who actually knows comedy do the writing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:43, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
::I don't have a problem with their targets being so generic... I just think the nits they picked were so... ''obvious''. And not very accurate. (Apparently Blaster is inherently racist?)
::Sky-Bite! Awesome '''and''' ridiculous. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:47, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, yes, pretty much. Saying Megatron or Scorponok are ridiculous is kind of missing the mark. Especially when, as you say, there are TFs who are quite delicious in their actual ridiculousness.
:::I mean, now that I think about it, in addition to my nominations above, there's also [[Shortround]], a toy-collecting dork of a Con with a hopeless crush on the "hot chick", who can also be mistransformed into looking like a toilet just to polish it all off. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:04, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Heinrad]] is definitely up there with the most ridiculous, as are the [[Jointron]]s..but I'm sure you've already thought of them. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 14:19, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
:Much as I love the KP TFs, [[Glit]]'s profile always makes me wonder why A.) he is a Decepticon and B.) how on Cybertron he's still alive. Gary Stu right there. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 14:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

:Dude. They used Wikia as their resource. Of course they, and their article, suck. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 16:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Toy swapping

2009-06-23T23:42:12Z

Fleb: isn't it more like... fraud?

[[Image:CybPrime swap.jpg|right|225px|thumb|"Details and color may vary."]]
'''Toy swapping''', in the context of toy collecting, refers to a heinous practice (some might consider it outright ''theft'') that involves buying a new toy, opening the packaging, replacing the content with another toy (or something else entirely), then returning the packaging with the replaced content to the store and claiming the money back. In essence, this means getting a new toy for free while leaving the store with an older toy (or complete junk) that will most likely never sell. The practice of toy swapping is not limited to the Transformers toylines, but is considered an easy way of getting new toys for "free" by fans from all kinds of different toylines. Obviously, this situation is anything but desirable.

==Reasoning==
[[Image:Crosscinerator.jpg|right|150px|thumb|"Kids will never notice the difference."]]
Aside from people who simply find this an easy way to get a new toy without actually paying for it, some fans think they can get away with swapping out older toys in favor of "better" [[redeco]]s; for example, buying [[Megatron (Armada)|''Energon'' Galvatron]] and then returning the packaging with the original Megatron version of the mold. Those people usually argue that "it's basically the same toy, only in different colors." Another common excuse is that "Kids won't notice the difference anyways, nor would they care."

In some instances (such as the recent "[[Premium Series]]" lineup of improved, more [[Show-accuracy|movie-accurate]] redecos of some of the toys from the 2007 [[Movie (toyline)|live-action Movie toyline]]), some fans even claim that Hasbro "screwed them over" by not releasing the redecos in the first place, thereby arguing that they were just taking what they felt entitled to anyways, so they swap it out with a regular movie toy for the Premium toy, or just swap the parts. The same happened again with the launch of the ''[[Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' toy line, and people returning 2007 Movie toys in the packaging of their "improved" 2009 counterparts.

Some people are obscenely self-entitled douchebags.

==Problem caused by toy swapping==
The main problem of toy swapping is simple: children. Fans and collectors usually know what the toy they're looking for is supposed to look like, so they most likely won't pick up a swapped toy, unless they're not paying attention for whatever reason. Therefore, the most likely victims of this practice are parents who buy a toy for their kid. Imagine the look on a child's face when he gets [[Movie (toyline)|Movie]] [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Leader Class Optimus Prime]] for his birthday, opens the packaging and finds an old, beat-up ''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] inside.

And no, this is ''not'' funny. Really not.

==Notable examples==
[[Image:Blackviperswap.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"Rare factory error variant! Could be yours for only $1000!"]]
Most collectors have come across one or more examples of toy swapping at one point or another. A few more egregious examples include the [[Dead End (G1)|Alternators Dead End]] box containing a non-transforming black Dodge Viper convertible model car, sold on eBay as a "rare factory error [[variant]]" of [[Sideswipe (G1)|Alternators Side Swipe]],<ref>http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=4623 TFormers.com falling for the "black Alternators Side Swipe variant</ref> as well as a [[Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]] [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] in an ''[[Transformers Animated (toyline)|Animated]]'' [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] box and a ''Universe'' [[Smokescreen (Universe)|Smokescreen]] in an ''Animated'' Voyager Class [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]] box at the same store. <ref>http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54107 Allspark thread about various swapped toys.</ref> The most bizarre report thus far was a ''painted piece of wood'' in a ''Transformers'' packaging.

==Toy swapping in other countries==
Interestingly enough, the only large-scale reports of such occurrences hail from North America (i.e. USA and Canada), with overtly liberal store policies allowing people to return opened products to stores and claiming their money back usually being blamed. Also, stores like Wal-Mart are often accused of not paying their employees enough to care for checking if they're being deceived, as is their policy of always giving customers the benefit of the doubt, especially when the product's packaging includes a note saying "details and color may vary".

Meanwhile, reports from Australia, Asia or Europe, where stores either don't allow returning opened products, or if they do, usually give them a closer examination, are much scarcer, or even pretty much nonexistent.

==External links==
*[http://shortpacked.com/d/20050622.html Shortpacked! strip about a toy swapper getting his comeuppance]

==Footnotes==
{{Reflist}}

[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:Toys]]

Blackarachnia (Animated)

2009-06-22T13:42:58Z

Fleb: links

{{disambig3|Blackarachnia}}
{{disambig3|Elita One}}
{{factions|autobot|decepticon}}
:''Blackarachnia is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Transformers Animated]] [[continuity family]]. She was previously an [[Autobot]] known as '''Elita-1'''.

:[[Image:FinalAniBlackarachnia.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Welcome to [[wikipedia:Goth Talk|Goth Talk]]!]]

In another life, she was '''Elita-1''', an energetic, spunky Autobot Academy cadet. That was until a fateful trip to an [[Spider planet|alien world]], where [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|her]] [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|teammates]] abandoned her to a horde of alien spiders. Now calling herself '''Blackarachnia''', she hates her new body with a passion. Her loathing of her organic parts is slowly driving her insane, and she will do ''anything'' to get rid of it, no matter whom she has to crush in her path. Her mutation fueled a newfound hatred of the [[Autobot]] cause and a quest for revenge that led her to join [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] in his war against them. However, she does not appear overly loyal to her leader.

In her mutant [[technorganic]] form, she makes use of her newfound '[[cyber venom]]' to paralyze her enemies, and combines this with her natural ability to download and mimic other [[Transformer]]s' traits and weaponry for a limited amount of time with a simple touch. Hope nobody told [[Lockdown]].

{{quote|It'll be a long time before I ever trust another Autobot. Especially you, Optimus.|Blackarachnia|"[[Along Came a Spider]]"}}

==Fiction==
===''Animated'' cartoon===
{{note|Events from [[IDW Publishing]] comic books are in italics.}}
:''Voice actor:'' [[Cree Summer]] (English), [[Christin Marquitan]] (German)

[[Image:TFA Elita-1.JPG|left|175px|thumb|Girlfriend in a coma, I know, I know it's serious.]]

Blackarachnia was previously known as Elita-1. A thousand [[Units of time|stellar cycles]] ago Elita and her teammates were exploring [[Spider planet|an alien world]], looking for a Decepticon ship filled with [[Energon (fuel)|energon]]. They accidentally fell into a series of caves. They were ambushed by giant spiders and, when escaping the massive energon explosion caused by the battle, Elita ended up being left behind. When she tried using her ability to borrow powers from other beings, she was injected by the spiders' venom, turning her into the hideous freak she is now. Because of her new, semi-organic nature, her signal did not appear on Optimus's radar, leading him and Sentinel to believe that she had perished in the explosion. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider}}

When the [[AllSpark (Animated)|AllSpark]] was found by a group of Autobots, Blackarachnia was aboard the [[Nemesis (Animated)|''Nemesis'']] with the other Decepticons, annoyed at [[Lugnut]]'s emphatic, vocal loyalty to Megatron. She even suggested that Lugnut's speech of praise was hardwired into his mind. She also had conflict with [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]], who touched a sore point by insulting her organic mode. Her retort to "blow it out your actuator, three-face" angered Blitzwing to the point that he... began to express his feelings in song. Later, at Megatron's orders, she scanned the Autobots' ship to determine the nature of their high-energy cargo. She confirmed the Autobots were carrying the AllSpark, or at least something just as powerful. When the Autobots escaped and it became clear the ''Nemesis'' was going to crash into an exploding space bridge, Blackarachnia fled in an escape pod. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

''Fifty stellar cycles later, while searching space for any trace of the AllSpark in the hope that she could use its power to purge herself of her organic mode, Blackarachnia stumbled across [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]], still operating out of the battered shell of the ''Nemesis''. Realizing that Starscream was searching for the AllSpark as well, Blackarachnia proposed an alliance, but Starscream proved uninterested in sharing power and promptly booted her out into space. Before being ejected, however, Blackarachnia was able to plant a homing device on Starscream, {{storylink|Dispatches}} and eventually tracked the beacon to [[Earth]]. At first setting down on Earth's [[Moon (moon)|moon]] to investigate the crashed hulk of the ''Nemesis'', Blackarachnia ran afoul of the bounty hunter [[Lockdown]], who had been hired by Blitzwing to hunt down Optimus Prime. Not willing to risk the bounty hunter finding the AllSpark before her, Blackarachnia attempted to dissuade him from investigating Earth, but Lockdown didn't take kindly to her interference, and the pair wound up battling. During the fight, Blackarachnia used her download ability on Lockdown, knocking him out, but she was immediately overwhelmed by the sheer number of powers and modifications she wound up taking from him, and passed out herself. Blackarachnia was first to awake, however, and hid herself aboard Lockdown's ship, so that when the bounty hunter finally came to and headed for Earth, she was able to hitch a free ride to the planet. {{storylink|A Few Loose Strands}}''

[[Image:Blackarach anim beast.jpg|right|200px|thumb|The Itchy Bitchy Spider crawled up the water spout...]]

After arriving on Earth, Blackarachnia stalked [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]], [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]], and [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]] on [[Halloween]] night. Once she took out the boys, she attempted to sweet-talk Sari into handing over her [[Key|AllSpark-powered key]], but Optimus Prime arrived to intervene. Using Bulkhead and Bumblebee's stolen powers to overcome Optimus, Blackarachnia captured Sari and web-swung her way to the top of a skyscraper, with Prime in hot pursuit. In the ensuing fight, Prime finally realized who Blackarachnia truly was. Exploiting the opening, Blackarachnia bound Prime in her web and seized Sari's key, activating its power in hopes of become fully mechanical. However, the energies unleashed caused any organic life in range, including Sari (and presumably any other [[Human|fleshy]]), to shrivel and sicken. It almost killed Blackarachnia, but Optimus Prime pulled the Key out, restoring the organics. Prime tried to reason with "Elita", asking her to come with them in the hopes of curing her, but Blackarachnia stabbed him, saying that it would be a long time before she trusted him again. After she knocked out Prime, she cried her four eyes out. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider}}

Later, she again kidnapped Sari, who was running away after having the Key taken away from her. When she heard about the Key and how Sari felt totally mistrusted by the Autobots, Blackarachnia played on the girl's sympathies by saying she knew how Sari felt. Blackarachnia noted how she was not a Decepticon until after the Autobots turned their backs on her, and how the AllSpark's power was the only thing that could cure her current form. Despite being kidnapped again and nearly being killed by Blackarachnia's previous use of the Key, Sari appeared to start seeing eye to eye with her captor. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 1}}

[[Image:Megatron Rising Blackarachnia farewell.JPG|left|175px|thumb|Here's hoping her organic half can withstand impact.]]

At least, that was what she wanted Blackarachnia to believe. Leading her around in circles over the frozen [[Lake Erie]], Sari was finally forced to admit that the [[Autobot ship (Animated)|Autobots' ship]], which contained the AllSpark, was underwater. Blackarachnia's organic half couldn't survive the icy underwater; incensed, she prepared to kill Sari. [[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet]] brought the ship up through the ice, and Sari bit Blackarachnia's hand, showing that her organic half couldn't withstand teeth, causing her to drop Sari and allow Ratchet to grab her and get in the ship. As Blackarachnia tried to force the door open, the vessel accelerated, and Blackarachnia was thrown off the ship. {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}}

[[Image:TFA Black Friday ME GRIMLOCK IN LOVE.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Me Grimlock be kisser for you!]]

Washing ashore on [[Dinobot Island (Animated)|Dinobot Island]], Blackarachnia was taken in by the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobots]], who gave her [[Meltdown (Animated)|Meltdown]]'s former base as a home. Using her charms, Blackarachnia was able to manipulate the Dinobots into doing anything she wanted. [[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock]] was particularly attached to her, and reminded the other Dinobots of this through violence. Going over Meltdown's notes, she realized that he would be able to remove the organic half from her body. She sent the Dinobots to release him from prison, causing the Autobots to come investigating. Blackarachnia then poisoned Bumblebee and [[Prowl (Animated)|Prowl]] with her venom, and used the "promise" of an anti-venom to blackmail Optimus into helping Grimlock find the [[genetic modifier]] Meltdown needed for the experiment. Unfortunately, Meltdown turned the tables on them when the modifier was his, planning on removing Blackarachnia's technological half and leaving him with an organic transformer. Optimus was able to stop Meltdown before he succeeded, but the modifier was damaged and Meltdown presumed killed. Needing escape, Blackarachnia urged Optimus to hold her, causing Grimlock to attack in jealousy, and Blackarachnia fled. However, it appears that Blackarachnia left the anti-venom needed to save Bumblebee and Prowl beside them. This gave Optimus hope that beneath all of Blackarachnia's anger and manipulation, there was still something left of Elita-1 in there. {{storylink|Black Friday (episode)|Black Friday}}

[[Image:TFA-PredaconsRising-SentinelBlackArachnia.jpg|thumb|left|[[Dark Designs (episode)|Better dead than Pred!]]]]
Still taking refuge in Meltdown's abandoned laboratory, Blackarachnia began experimenting with [[transwarp]] energy to create new techno-organic beings to experiment on in an attempt to purge her organic elements, the idea being if she could turn another techno-organic purely robotic, she could do the same to herself. Most of her early attempts proved fruitless, until [[Swoop (Animated)|Swoop]] was able to capture the perfect test subject: the renegade Autobot [[Wasp]]. Tempting him with both her feminine wiles and promises of power great enough to achieve revenge on the bots who betrayed him, she coaxed him into being experimented on, fittingly merging him with the DNA of a wasp.

[[Image:TFAni Predacons Rising Blackarachina sans Helmet.jpg|thumb|I'd hit it.]]

While Wasp was being turned techno-organic, her old friend Sentinel Prime stumbled upon the lab and was disgusted to find a robot with an organic mode. He was even more shocked when she revealed that they had a past: she was his old friend Elita-1. Disgusted by her mutation, Sentinel was willing to "put her out of her misery", and during a scuffle knocked Blackarachnia's helmet off, allowing him to see her true, partially organic face. After Wasp's transformation into Waspinator was complete, Blackarachnia revealed her plans to Sentinel and Optimus.

[[Image:PredaconsRising-WaspinatorBlackarachnia.jpg|thumb|left]]

Unfortunately, Waspinator was within earshot when she revealed what little regard she had for his life. Hurt by this betrayal, the now physically unstable Waspinator issued Blackarachnia an ultimatum: either fix him or be destroyed. She tried to escape, but once it was revealed that the transwarp energies responsible for his creation were going critical and about to cause a huge explosion, Blackarachnia surrounded herself and Waspinator in her webbing, shielding the Autobots from the explosion and seemingly leading to her final demise.

However, when she awoke, she was in a strange jungle, in front of a [[Maximal|group of organic creatures]] that looked rather surprised to see their new guests. {{storylink|Predacons Rising}}

===Titan Magazines===

Realising that the Autobots also win due to the power of teamwork, Blackarachnia decided to isolate one of them from the rest of the team. She stuck a tracer on Bumblebee so she could listen in on the crew and find out the best opportunity, while she roped Blitzwing and Lugnut into helping her. By the next day, when Bumblebee and Prowl were having a race at [[Crazy Coyote Canyon]], the Decepticons had set up a trap and were able to capture Prowl. To Blackarachnia's annoyance though, Bumblebee turned up and somehow her comrades failed to pursue him even ''with'' the tracer.

She commanded Lugnut to fire on the Autobots as they sped across the cave roof, realising too late this would cause a cave-in. To add insult to injury, she found the tracer couldn't track Bumblebee any more because it was stuck on Lugnut's butt... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|The Race}}

==Toys==
===Animated===
[[Image:Blackarachniaanimateddeluxe.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Hideously mutated into this sexy, sexy figure.]]
*'''Blackarachnia''' (Deluxe, 2008)
**''Accessories'': Grapnel-hook

:Blackarachnia transforms into a mechanical spider with some organic aesthetic. Many of her pointier parts are [[For safety reasons|molded in softer plastic]] to keep unfortunate children from putting their eyes out. She comes with a [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grapnel grapnel] hook accessory. This is spring-loaded, with a jointed claw at the end of it. Pressing a button causes it to retract along the string. It may be mounted under her abdomen in spider mode or on her back in robot mode, via two different sets of pegs. There is also a peg hole in each wrist, for [[Spider-Man|web-slinging]] action.

:The spider's head is mis-transformed in the package, making the first step of her instructions initially confusing. Furthermore, the pedipalps will easily come off if manipulated too much, and her transformation requires that they be turned around completely. Because of this, they will often fall off over, and over, and ''over''...

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/Blackarachnia/blackarachnia.htm More information on Blackarachnia at TFU.info]''

{{anchor|Prime2pack}}
*'''The Revenge of Blackarachnia''' (2-pack, 2008)
**''Accessories'': Grapnel-hook

: The Blackarachnia toy was released again in a Wal-Mart [[exclusive]] two-pack with the "Battle Damaged" [[Optimus Prime (Animated)#DVDpack|Optimus Prime from the a DVD 2-pack with Megatron]]. Both toys are identical to their original releases.

{{-}}

==Notes==
[[Image:AniBlackarachniaPromoModel.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Black belly is, like, so last season.]]
* A non-final [[character model]] for Blackarachnia was included in the initial ''Transformers Animated'' press kit from [[Cartoon Network]], was used briefly (in silhouette) for her first appearance in "[[Transform and Roll Out]]", and appears on the Deluxe figure's packaging. Though the toy shares the non-final model's spider-leg placement in robot mode, black belly, dark purple skin, and yellow Decepticon symbol, the rest of the toy adheres much more closely to the finished model.
*The initial ''Transformers Animated'' press kit from Cartoon Network also said that Blackarachnia's techno-organic state was caused by "an encounter with the [[AllSpark (Animated)|ALLSPARK]]" in the past. Given her actual in-show origin, either this was an early idea for the character, or the press release writer was misinformed.
* As Blackarachnia, what seemed to be her new head is actually a helmet that was lying around in the wrecked Decepticon warship where she had her accident. After seeing her without it in "[[Predacons Rising]]", you can see why she wore it.
* So far, Blackarachnia's the only major ''Transformers'' character not to have [[stock footage|a detailed on-screen transformation]].
* Blackarachnia can swing off of tall, unseen buildings, with webbing that shoots out of her hands. Wow, we've never seen that befo—[[Spider-Man|wait a minute...]]
* As Elita-1, her head seems to be based on the pony-tailed Ariel, the younger form of [[Elita One]], while her body's ornamentation homages Elita One herself.
* According to [[Derrick J. Wyatt]], Elita-1's [[alternate mode]] is a "Cybertronian car". [https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21975298&postID=2344351953813555694&isPopup=true]

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Autobots]]
[[Category:Decepticons]]
[[Category:Female Transformers]]
[[Category:Turncoats]]

Cyber venom

2009-06-22T13:23:50Z

Fleb:

: ''Cyber venom is a weapon from the [[Beast Wars]] and [[Animated]] [[Continuity family|continuity families]].''

The [[Predacon]]s have a penchant for taking [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]] based on venomous animals. Sometimes this extends to mimicry of their assumed form’s most powerful weapon, in the form of '''cyber venom'''.

Like the [[Wikipedia:Venom|venom]] from their beast mode’s template, cyber venom causes all manner of detrimental effects on other Cybertronians stricken by it. Like true venoms, cyber venom must typically be injected into the inner mechanisms of its victim to be effective. Delivery is often in the form of [[Tarantulas|barbed]] [[Blackarachnia (BW)|darts]], [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|stingers]] or fangs, though some instances of it being launched as [[Quickstrike (BW)|energy bolts]] have been recorded.

Known Transformers possessing cyber venom:

*[[Tarantulas]]
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)]]
*[[Quickstrike (BW)| Quickstrike]]
*[[Blackarachnia (Animated)]]

==Fiction==
===Beast Wars===
The first Predacon to exhibit cyber venom was Tarantulas, who was soon joined by Blackarachnia, and later, the [[Fuzor]] Quickstrike. The former two would employ spiny or explosive darts to inject their victims with the technological toxin, while the later fired it from his left head in a manner reminiscent of a [[Wikipedia:Spitting cobra|spitting cobra]], but could also inject it with a bite. In all three cases, Transformers suffering the effects of cyber venom were typically incapacitated by the toxin, either having to be cleansed in a [[CR chamber]], or wait for the venom to run its course. While the venom was in effect, the Transformer’s body would be marbled with glowing patches of energy, and emit low-pitch feedback.

The effects of the venom were notoriously inconsistent, from being able to incapacitate powerful warriors like [[Depth Charge]], to causing only pain, such as when Quickstrike injected it directly into [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]]'s leg. Others, such as [[Dinobot II]], were able to shake the effects of the venom quickly, requiring higher doses before being rendered inoperative.

Several Predacons who have venomous beast modes never showed any use of cyber venom:

*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] ([[wiki:scorpion|scorpion]])
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] ([[wiki:wasp|wasp]])
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] ([[wiki:fire ant|fire art]])

===''Animated''===
When the Autobot Elita-1 attempted to use her mimicking powers on a horde of giant, alien spiders, she contaminated herself with their venom, causing her body to become partially organic. Gaining a pair of deadly, bladed stingers, she could now inject her victims with a powerful toxin, while simultaneously using her mimicking powers to copy their unique modifications.

Blackarachnia’s poison was consistently potent and dangerous. Not only was it capable of dropping powerful and durable foes like [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] and [[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock]] with ease, but its effects, being based on [[Wikipedia:Biomolecule|organic sources]], could not be treated by [[Key|Sari’s key]]. {{storylink|Along Came a Spider|Along Came a Spider}} Normally, Blackarachnia used only enough venom to disable her foes, but if she chose, she could bring the dosage up to lethal levels, requiring the administration of an antidote to prevent the victim from going offline permanently. {{storylink|Black Friday (episode)}}

[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Animated]]
[[Category:Weapons]]

Tarantulas (BW)

2009-06-22T13:21:08Z

Fleb: /* Beast Wars cartoon */ missing link

{{factions|predacon}}
{{picsneeded|Toys}}

:''Tarantulas is a [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] from the [[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]] portion of the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''
:''His name is also officially spelled "'''Tarantulus'''".''

[[Image:Tarantulasbw.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"And fries! Lots of FRIES!"]]
'''Tarantulas''' is the scheming mad scientist of the Predacon crew. The type of mad scientist who experiments on living beings, cackling in his [[Trademark|trademarked]] laugh all the while, and then if things go wrong, happily eats what's left as his midday snack. (Considering his appetite, that must happen a lot.) He was one of the Predacons to join [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] during his theft of the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden Disk]] and the search for [[Earth]]. In addition to being an utterly psychotic, sadistic sociopath (even by Predacon standards, which is something he appears to wear with pride), Tarantulas has a record for treachery rivaled by few [[Starscream (G1)|other]] Transformers. Tarantulas is actually an agent of the [[Tripredacus Council]], which is trying to coax the Beast Wars toward an unspecified goal, where neither Autobot or Decepticon won the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]].

Tarantulas has a particularly notable hatred of the [[Vok]] aliens, a hatred strong enough to make him work to eliminate them by any means.

{{quote|Lunatic.|[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] on Tarantulas|[[Spider's Game]]}}

:''Japanese name:'' '''Tarans''' (タランス ''Taransu'')
:''Chinese name (Taiwan):'' '''Jr-jū''' (蜘蛛, "Spider"), later '''Húng Jr-jū''' (紅蜘蛛, "Red Spider")
:''Italian name:'' '''Metal Tarantulas''' (Transmetal)
:''Polish name:'' '''Tarantulator'''

==Fiction==
===Toy Bio===
Tarantulas is a sneaky, mysterious ninja feared across the galaxy. A master of the martial arts, he's suspected in the disappearances of many [[Human|Earthlings]], and rumors swirl of giant cocoons where he stores his prey.

===Optimus Primal vs Megatron!===
Tarantulas is guarding the Predacons' jungle-based genetics lab along with Megatron and Waspinator. When the Maximals discover them, he engages Razorbeast in combat briefly before Megatron calls retreat and destroys the lab. {{storylink|Optimus Primal vs Megatron!|Optimus Primal vs Megatron!}}

===Cartoon continuity===
====Theft of the Golden Disk====
Tarantulas decoded the information on the Golden Disk, freshly stolen by Megatron. He thought this was quite hilarious, but then, he thinks that about everything. {{storylink|Theft of the Golden Disk|Theft of the Golden Disk}}

====Dawn of Future's Past====
[[Image:Tarantulasdawn.jpg|right|180px|thumb|See? A Planet X key in the corner of the pic. He's working for Unicron! Get him!]]
As [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] and his rogue band of Predacons escaped [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] in their stolen ship, the ''[[Darksyde]]'', Tarantulas was in charge of scanning the disk for a desired set of coordinates. While Megatron was not watching, he was in secret communication with a member of the [[Tripredacus Council]]. (The reflections in his helmet show the silhouette of [[Cicadacon|General Cicadacon]].)

Using the decoded coordinates, the ''Darksyde'' opened a [[transwarp]] portal, which it and the [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] passed through. {{storylink|Dawn of Future's Past|Dawn of Future's Past}}
{{-}}
====''Beast Wars'' cartoon====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Alec Willows]] (English), [[Yūichi Nagashima]] (Japanese), [[Fabio Vilalonga]] (Portuguese)

Tarantulas was one of the original crew on the ''Darksyde'' when it crashed on prehistoric Earth. As Megatron's technical leader, he manned the scanners to appropriate beast forms based on the most powerful local creatures. {{storylink|Beast Wars (Part 1)}} At first he takes on the role of mad scientist and appears as vacuous as the other Predacons; by the first full month of the Beast Wars, he is established as a cannibal when he attempts to drink an energy-drained Cheetor's mech fluid. {{storylink|The Web}}

Tarantulas caused as many problems for Megatron as he fixed. He always needed a [[Tarantulas's lair|separate hideout]] to plot other, evil schemes, and he managed to stay one step ahead of most of his "allies". The only partner he worked with frequently—though they betrayed each other just as often—was [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]].

When Tarantulas learned of the [[Vok]] and their impending return to Earth, he spent his best efforts to capture a working [[stasis pod]] to craft an escape shuttle. At the hour of the Vok's return, he finally completed one. Megatron had known of his and Blackarachina's plans and threw a wrench in the works—[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]]. Inferno stomped into the room, interrupted Tarantulas's download of the stasis pod's datatracks, torched him, and was defeated by Blackarachnia. {{storylink|Other Voices, Part 2}}

Fortunately for Tarantulas, Blackarachnia picked up his discarded download visor. Tarantulas jumped into her mind, controlling her (presumably from his stasis-locked body). When the [[quantum surge]] knocked out all of the Transformers on Earth, his body was upgraded to a Transmetal form, complete with a motorcycle vehicle mode. He maintained a link to Blackarachnia's mind, but was forced to sever it when she threatened to to commit suicide, which would also off-line him. He also set up a second lair in [[Grid Arakis]], which held a large cache of stable [[energon cube]]s and had been written off by both sides. {{storylink|Tangled Web}}

At some undisclosed point, Tarantulas discovered the ''[[Nemesis (G1)|Nemesis]]'', the flagship of the [[Decepticon]] fleet. Although his longterm goals for the vessel are unknown, he did manage to restore the ship to working status, complete with a Predacon control console and a transwarp cell, meaning that he may have planned to use it to return to Cybertron once he completed his main objective. {{storylink|Nemesis Part 1}}

When the transwarp explosion finally reached through the time warp and had enough potency to enter Cybertronian space, Tarantulas's true allegiance was revealed: He was a member of the [[Predacon Secret Police]] and an agent of the [[Tripredacus Council]]. The Tripredacus Council was the first alerted of the transwarp explosion and realized it was from where Megatron's ship had gone. Ravage was sent to ally with the Maximals, arrest Megatron, and then betray and destroy them all.

Allied with Ravage and having the use of his stealth ship, the Maximals easily overwhelmed Megatron. Tarantulas knocked out the power to Megatron's ship at that exact moment, allowing an easy capture. {{storylink|The Agenda (Part 1)}}

Megatron managed to manipulate Ravage into his servitude using a recording of the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] on the Golden Disk and gained his freedom. Tarantulas joined Ravage on his stealth ship for an attack on the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]''. {{storylink|The Agenda (Part 2)}} However, Tarantulas was blown to pieces by Rattrap through a combination of the rodent's demolition bombs and the explosion of the ship. {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}} Tarantulas survived, though, and was quickly put back together by his spider drones. {{storylink|Optimal Situation}}

Megatron, in all his wisdom, forgave Tarantulas's treachery, as it was simply the Predacon way and the spider was too useful to execute, even though Megatron made it very clear that he'd never trusted Tarantulas, even before the scientist did anything treacherous. Tarantulas appeared back in the Predacon camp on a regular basis—though it would later become clear that he was still very busy working on his own agenda, apparently during his numerous unexplained absences. He battled the Maximals alongside Megatron's Transmetal raptors (a harbinger of [[Dinobot II|things to come]]) {{storylink|Cutting Edge}} and helped the other Predacons construct a massive disruptor ray (which ultimately backfired on them). {{storylink|Go with the Flow}} When the Maximals attempted to remove Blackarachnia's shell program, he revealed to Megatron that he had included "certain safeguards" that guaranteed she would not survive, and joined the other Predacons in an attack on the Maximals that was meant to disrupt the attempted shell removal. He fired the missile which knocked the Maximals' power off-line at a crucial instant, seemingly bringing an end to his "treacherous creation". Enraged by the death of his beloved, [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] attempted to kill the scientist, but was thwarted by [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]], who was later defeated by a revived—and [[Transmetal|Transmetalized]]—Blackarachnia. {{storylink|Crossing the Rubicon}}

Tarantulas participated in the Predacons' next attempt to retake the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'', but manipulated [[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] into throwing Megatron into the nearby lava while he himself set the ''Ark'''s engines to overload. At this point, he claimed to be descended from neither the Autobots nor the Decepticons, which was why he was willing to destroy the core members of both factions then present (in stasis lock) in the ''Ark''. Megatron survived his lava-dunking, gaining a new body in the process. However, he had lost his patience. While he'd tolerated Tarantulas's treachery, he could not tolerate incompetence. Tarantulas survived his punishment and fled back to his lair. {{storylink|Master Blaster}}

[[Image:Tarantulas death.JPG|left|200px|thumb|Oh, yeah, he [[Primeval Dawn Part 1|meant to do this]]. Right. Sure he did.]]
When the [[Vok]] emissary [[Tigerhawk]] arrived on Earth shortly afterwards, Tarantulas managed to disable and capture him. Tarantulas intended to force the all-powerful being into his servitude by drawing the Vok influences out of his body and reprogramming him. The scheme backfired, however, as his energy beam device expelled two actual Vok out of Tigerhawk. The formless spectres attempted to take over Tarantulas' body. Panicking, he opened fire on them—a futile gesture that merely served to spin the energy device around 'til its rays were blasting him and his lab equipment. Overloaded by the beams, Tarantulas exploded, leaving nothing behind but his boots. The remainder of his equipment detonated seconds later, blowing the lair to rubble. Cheetor managed to rescue the inert Tigerhawk, and Tarantulas was presumed dead. {{storylink|Other Victories}}

While searching the ruins of Tarantulas's lair, Megatron offhandedly referred to him as "[[Unicron]]'s spawn". {{storylink|Nemesis Part 1}}
{{-}}

====''Beast Wars: Transmetals''====
In an alternate timeline, Tarantulas found a way to escape prehistoric Earth and return to Cybertron.

Then he came back, with an armada of Transwarp battleships under his command, out to end the Beast Wars and enforce the Tripredacus Council's will... {{storylink|Beast Wars: Transmetals|Beast Wars: Transmetals}}

====''Universe'' comics====
[[Image:Primeval Tarantulas.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Tarantulas doesn't really hate the Vok so much as he wants to kill them and wear their skin as a Vok suit.]]
Following the Beast Wars, Tarantulas's body returned to life, reanimated by the Vok powers he'd previously absorbed. The undead Tarantulas, along with a rebuilt Ravage (as [[Ravage (G1)|Tripredacus Agent]]), nurtured new troops to life through enigmatic means, growing [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] and [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]] in tubes. {{storylink|Primeval Dawn Part 1|Primeval Dawn Part 1}}

The remaining Vok anticipated Tarantulas's plan to destroy the rest of them, take their power, and fashion the timestream to his desires, and so they assembled an army of their own consisting of [[Primal Prime]], [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]], and [[Tigatron]]. Tarantulas met this opposition in battle, overwhelmed them, and ripped the [[Matrix of Leadership]] from Primal Prime's chest. {{storylink|Primeval Dawn Part 2|Primeval Dawn Part 2}}

Wounded critically, the Maximals withdrew to the ''Ark''. Tarantulas ordered Ravage to take Razorclaw, Iguanus, and their new recruit [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] and assault the ''Ark'' in order to finish them off. {{storylink|Primeval Dawn Part 3|Primeval Dawn Part 3}}

{{note|[[3H Productions]] dissolved before this storyline could be completed. Based on the subsequent ''Wreckers'' and ''[[Universe (2003 comic)|Universe]]'' storylines, it can be assumed that the Matrix of Leadership was restored to Optimus Prime's body at the end of this altercation, that the Maximals were triumphant, and that Tarantulas somehow fled to return to Unicron.}}
When the influence of [[Unicron]] swayed [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] to the side of darkness, she was surprised to see Tarantulas (still in his undead body) greet her as she joined the ranks of the [[Minions of Unicron]]. {{storylink|Escape (issue)|Escape}}

===''Beast Wars Metals'' comic===
Following the [[Quantum surge]], Tarantulas was upgraded into a [[Transmetal]]. Scheming with [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] within their floating island base, the ''[[Hindenburg]]'', Tarantulas developed a plan to revive the deceased [[Optimus Primal]] as a [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] slave. Recovering Primal's mindless, raging body, Tarantulas staged a strange voodoo ceremony (complete with boiling cauldron). As Megatron pricked his finger and prepared to use his mutated blood to turn Primal's rampaging body into his slave, the spark of Optimus Primal returned to it just in the nick of time. As Primal turned into a Transmetal, Tarantulas began to celebrate, convinced that his plan had worked out better than he had thought, unaware of what was really going on. An angry Optimus Primal then proceeded to knock Tarantulas's block off. {{storylink|Raise the Curtain for Beast Wars Metals!!|Raise the Curtain for Beast Wars Metals!!}}

==Toys==
===Beast Wars===
*'''Tarantulas''' (Deluxe, 1996/1997)
** ''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-4'''
**''Accessories'': Launcher, 4 spider-leg missiles

: Part of the first wave of ''Beast Wars'' product, Tarantulas transforms into an organic generic spider (''not'' a tarantula). His abdomen contains a spring-loaded missile launcher, which fires the anchor-missile kept in his spider-butt. This missile is attached by a string so he can hang from things like a real spider. The launcher can be removed and used as a robot-mode weapon, using any of his front four spider-legs as missiles. Like all early Deluxe-and-up ''Beast Wars'' toys, he has two different robot-mode "heads"; a robotic face and a "mutant" face. He is almost always depicted using the mutant face.

: There is a variation of this toy in the [[Hasbro]] line: Later releases (the smooth bubble) lack the yellow paint on his elbows.

: The [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] release of Tarantulas was originally identical to the Hasbro release. Later, a slightly color-altered version was released, using a brighter shade of green and a slightly darker gray. The color-altered version also replaced the blue eyes on the "robot" head and the black eyes of the "mutant" head with gold.

: This mold was used to make the first [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] toy.

{{-}}
====VsPack====

[[Image:VS4-DinobotTarantuas.jpg|right|200px|thumb|The classic battle of dino vs spider. We've all heard the tale.]]
*'''Brutal Showdown: Dinobot VS Tarans''' (VS pack, 1997)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-4'''
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, 4 spider-leg missiles

: In Japan, "Tarans" was available both as an individual and in a two-pack with "[[Dinobot]]". Both toys in this set were identical to their individual releases.

: Currently, it is unknown if the latter "more show-like" redeco of Tarantulas was ever released in a VS set.

====Microverse====

[[Image:Tarantulas-Microverse.jpg|right|100px|thumb|]]
*'''Orcanoch''' ([[MicroVerse]], 1997)

: A small, non-transforming micro-figure of Tarantulas came with the [[MicroVerse]] [[Orcanoch]] playset. It was presumably painted based on the original design, as its upper body is copper rather than purple. Its only articulation is at the waist, letting it sit in any of the MicroVerse mini-vehicles or playset stations.

{{-}}
====Transmetals====
[[Image:BWtoy-TarantulasTransmetal.jpg|right|thumb|300px|I'm-a spawn of-a Unicron! I-a slice-a ya pizza!]]
*'''Tarantulas''' (Deluxe Transmetal, 1998)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-44'''
**''Accessories'': Sawblade weapon

: Part of the first assortment of [[Transmetal|Transmetals]], Tarantulas transforms into a robotic spider. He also has a third "transport" mode, flipping down a wheel from his abdomen and a saw-blade from under his beast-head, making a spidey-cycle. The saw detaches for robot mode to become a hand-held weapon.

: The Japanese version is slightly different, replacing the "TARANTULAS" [[tampograph]] with "DESTRON" and the Predacon sigil, plus his robot-mode eyes are painted as a single visor to match the show look better.
{{-}}

====Fox Kids Transmetal====

[[Image:Tarantulas-FKTM.jpg|right|200px|thumb|]]
*'''Tarantulas''' (Deluxe "Fox Kids" Transmetal, 1999)
**''Accessories'': Sawblade weapon

: A [[redeco]] of the Transmetal Tarantulas toy in grays, silver and black. He and a Transmetal [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] redeco were part of the little-seen second wave of Toys "R" Us [[exclusive]] "Fox Kids" toys, so called for the advertisements for the Fox channel on the packaging (as the [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' cartoon]] had moved there from syndication). Internal Hasbro documents have listed this toy as "'''Steel Force Tarantulas'''", a name that did not make it to final packaging.

: These colors were used to depict Tarantulas in the ''[[Primeval Dawn]]'' and ''[[Universe (2003 comic)|Universe]]'' comics. With the toy's limited availability, secondary-market pricing for this item due to its fictional use has gone up.

===Beast Wars 10th Anniversary===
*'''Predacon Tarantulus''' (Deluxe, 2006)
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, 4 spider-leg missiles

:This toy is a slight [[redeco]] of the original Tarantulas toy, more closely resembling Tarantulas's appearance in the cartoon (save the big Predacon faction sigil tampograph). Part of the second wave of ''Beast Wars'' 10th Anniversary product, he came with a DVD of the episode "[[Spider's Game]]", plus the left leg to [[Trans-Mutate]].

==Merchandise==
===Robot Heroes===
[[Image:Robotheroestarantulasprimal.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Don't take your eyes off your mech fluid, Primal.]]
*'''Optimus Primal vs Predacon Tarantulas''' (2008)

: Part of the second wave of ''[[Universe (2008 franchise)|Universe]]'' [[Robot Heroes]], this PVC figurine of Tarantulas' original body has articulation in the shoulders and neck. He was available only in a "Beast Wars Series" two-pack with [[Optimus Primal]] (amusingly enough, the [[Maximal]] he also came with in the ''[[MicroVerse]]'' [[Orcanoch]] playset).

{{-}}
==Notes==
* Tarantulas's origins are a bit complicated. He declares in "[[Other Victories]]" that he and the [[Tripredacus Council]] have origins other than Autobot and Decepticon, such that they would not be affected by the destruction of the ''Ark''. Megatron's line about "Unicron's spawn" was apparently not intended by [[Bob Forward]] to be taken literally; it was to have been a generic insult rather than a statement of fact. [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/f06828ec523295c1?dmode=source&output=gplain] (Forward's own inkling, albeit never realized, was that they might be descended from [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]]'s Cybertronian Empire.) A Unicronian origin also creates potential canonical issues, as Tarantulas says that "under our rule, Cybertron will conquer the universe" ("[[Other Victories]]"), whereas Unicron's goal would have been to eat Cybertron. (Although being creations of Unicron does not necessarily mean they would be loyal to him or forever share his agenda.) But, much like [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]]'s line about "[[Darksyde|the dark side]]", this line developed a life of its own. Eventually this connection was reasserted in [[3H Productions]]' ''[[Primeval Dawn]]'' storyline.

* In the Japanese dub of ''Beast Wars'', Tarantulas retained his trademark cackle, but it was a little ''different''. His voice was very high-pitched and he shrieked almost constantly. His trademark laugh more closely resembled a wicked witch of sorts.

[[Image:TarantulasArm.jpg|right|150px|thumb|He tastes everything he holds.]]
* Early promotional pictures showed the original Tarantulas toy as being transparent orange, but the final toy was a clear deep purple instead. Presumably, this was for a little visual variety in the early line, which already had a largely tan toy ([[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]]) and a largely yellow toy ([[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]) in the Deluxe range, plus a Mega-sized Predacon arachnid then planned to be orange ([[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]]), and [[Tigatron]], who was at one point slated to be a traditional orange tiger.

* The original Tarantulas toy has ''nine'' eyes in beast mode, as does the show model. This makes characters' references to him as "eight-eyes" rather...interesting.

* In the original control art for Tarantulas, the claws are shown in the same configuration as used in the show. In other words, the claws were somehow swapped during the assembly process and have remained as such on every version of the mold thereafter.

* Tarantulas's body in "[[Theft of the Golden Disk]]" is based on ''Cybertron'' [[Ransack (Cybertron)|Ransack]].

*Tarantulas is referred to as simply "Tarantula" in the [[commercial]] advertising his toy.

* Despite being a creepy, ninja-like agent of Unicron who transforms into a motorcycle, he is absolutely not [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]]. Nope! Nosirree.

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Predacon/Tarantulas/tarantulas.htm Tarantulas at TFU.info]

[[Category:Beast Wars characters]]
[[Category:Double agents]]
[[Category:Ninjas]]
[[Category:Predacons]]
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Security officers]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]
[[Category:Toys "R" Us exclusives]]
[[Category:Transmetals]]
[[Category:Unicron-related characters]]
[[Category:Universe characters]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

Revenge (G1)

2009-06-22T13:18:26Z

Fleb:

:''The Decepticon mothership is a [[Starships|starship]] from the [[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Galvatron ship.jpg|right|250px|thumb|To infinity and beyoooond!]]

The '''Decepticon mothership''' is a mighty warship granted to [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] by [[Unicron]]. It has a pretty good success rate of blowing up [[Autobot shuttle|Autobot shuttles]].

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon===
[[Image:TFTM Decepticonshipbridge.jpg|left|250px|thumb|For a big ship, it sure looks cramped.]]
The mothership was given to Galvatron by Unicron shortly after the former was reformatted from the broken body of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]. The mothership ferried Galvatron back to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], where he seized the reins of [[Decepticon]] command from the treacherous [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]. After the Decepticons attacked [[Autobot City]] on [[Earth]] for the second time, the mothership pursued two fleeing Autobot shuttles commanded by [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] and [[Kup (G1)|Kup]], successfully forcing one shuttle to crash on [[Quintessa|a strange, twisted world]] and apparently destroying Magnus's shuttle.

When Galvatron dared challenge Unicron with the [[Matrix of Leadership]], the Chaos Bringer attacked Cybertron. The mothership was crushed by Unicron in the subsequent battle. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}}

In 2006, the mothership scored another victory against the Autobots by blasting [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]'s shuttle and forcing the crew to make an emergency landing at the [[Autobot Mausoleum]]. {{storylink|Dark Awakening}}

In the year 2007, the mothership was used during Galvatron's attack on Autobot City after the end of the [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2|short-lived truce]] between the two factions. After the key to the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] was secured, the Decepticons made their getaway in the mothership. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 1}} After the devastating attack on Cybertron, the mothership was used by [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]], [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]], and a squad of Decepticons to pursue some wayward Autobots to the planet [[Nebulos]]. While parked there, it was destroyed by the newly created Autobot [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]]. {{storylink|The Rebirth, Part 2}}

==Notes==
[[Image:Rebirth-ConShipOnNebulos.jpg|right|180px|thumb|What the heck? Did they do a trade-in along the way?]]
*The ship is never given a name in the show, but Galvatron does refer to it as "the mothership" at the start of "[[The Rebirth, Part 1]]" episode.
* We do not actually see the ship created; it slips out of an opening near the equatorial section of Unicron.
* It is consistent with other Decepticon ships in the Generation 1 cartoon, in that it is completely purple and has a purple afterburner.
* Among its arsenal are torpedoes, multiple cannons (presumably lasers), and [[Moleculon missile|moleculon missiles]].
* Although the mothership is drawn with its normal model during the attack on Autobot City and its subsequent sojourn to Cybertron in the first part of ''The Rebirth'', it looks entirely different once it lands on Nebulos. It's possible Cyclonus and friends used some ''other'' Decepticon ship to make the trip, but the mothership is never seen again after this ship's destruction...

==External link==
* [[Floro Dery]]'s [http://web.archive.org/web/20071226231039/http://hometown.aol.com/kuest12/decepticon.html original conceptual designs]
{{-}}
{{stub}}

[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Starships]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-06-20T01:33:33Z

Fleb: /* Derik causes problems */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

'''The server move:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive33|Archive 33]]
}}

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:That's a note, not a quote. The site unfortunately has plenty of problems in IE6, mostly caused by Microsoft's crappy rendering engine. A few of them linger in IE7 too... We really need to come up with a replacement for the messageboxes which doesn't lose the right-hand edge for one thing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description) |(issue number) |(issue title) |(artist list) |(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |letters= |help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |script= |pencils= |inks= |colours= |letters= |help= |year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::With no reported problems from the ppl running Kired Tools, this plugin has been moved to the common file, and is now loaded for all Wiki users.
:::So if anything unexpected breaks tonight please report it here, since the preview script will be the likely suspect. (But we don't expect it to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:53, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's now been said '''thrice''' in this thread that the UK/Eire date is the 19th. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]]
:::::::::::Beg your pardon, then. It was late, and I wasn't paying close enough attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::Damn Americans think they're the centre of the Universe. If I was President of the US, I'd invade the UK and Ireland to protect American Transfan interests. 14:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I read the novel and have this to say: As much detail as is in it, there's no doubt its different. First of all: there's alot more detail so that means some of the slower parts are probably shorter in the movie (novels often do that anyways so no problems there) and also: in one chapter it leads up to fight and then on the very next chapter all of a sudden Devestator appears and is fighting already as if he's been there the whole time (meaning they skipped a chunk of that fight)So as is obvious, there will be differences.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<<not that it matters

==Forgive my attitude but==
what the flying f***! What happened to my account. I made one, I even remember what it looked like. Where is it and why can't I login and my username no longer exsists! What..the..hell. I've not signed in for a long time but I still go here regularly and everything, don't tell me you autodeleted my account! I mean, I’ve been here when it was at Wikia, I moved with you guys here and even made a new account here! Hell, my old accounts on Wikia all got deleted, so please don’t tell me you guys stooped to their level and deleted my account as well! I’ve done nothing wrong, aside from giving the appearance of being inactive because I’ve not logged in within awhile, but so what? What right does that give you to delete my account? (and if by some means it does give you the right to do so, please provide a link proving that)--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<< not that it matters
:[[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Thank you. I'll just make a new account then.-sighs- Forgive if I bothered any of you with what I just said.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
::Don't worry, incoherent rage is the '''proper''' response to the Bookworm crash... you're just slowpoking. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Main page ==

[[Image:Mainpage_analytics-06-05-09.png|thumb]]
I'll just leave this here...

(I'll check in after work and see if anyone has thoughts, I sure do.)

Number are per-individual-link BTW-- so two separate links to the same location have their clickthroughs tallied separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
: In which we learn nobody clicks anything! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::The numbers on the page ''should'' add up to 100%. It's just that a few links get vastly more traffic than the others so they show up as 0%. That might represent a few hundred clicks-- the Main Page ''is'' our most frequented page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:12, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::And people are obviously clicking on [[Kup (G1)]] as the page has gained a thousand hits and jumped 30 places in the Popular Pages list in the last week or so. Any idea what time frame the data covers? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::That was pretty much my thought, too. XD Although it is kind of interesting that some of the categories/continuities/series sections seem more popular than others... it's just hard to tell which ones, since the number pop-ups are in weird spots.
::I also notice that the "images" link in the Editing Tips is popular... and that apparently the fake disambiguation links get some clicks. XD Speaking of which, we really should write up some more of those to replace the rotating ones that got lost in the crash... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:26, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I may have sternly directed people to our Images policy page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:49, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's the most common thing people get wrong, so it's also our most thorough policy document.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::About 8% of clicks on the main page are to our "anyone can edit" but up top-- which just takes people to anchors within the page. (The Editing tips section and the Holy Grails section, which do not themselves then collect a lot of clicks.)
:::::This leads me to think that people who click on these things do ''not'' get what they want/are expecting. We should look at changing those links somehow.
:::::Another 8 % of clicks on the main page are on the "home" logo in the upper left (which takes you... back to the main page) and the "main page" link in the nav toolbar.
:::::If there's agreement, I'd like to set it so that the "Main Page" link in the navigation on the left is grayed out when you're on the main page, so it's clearer that "you're here." (The link would still be usable, it'd just have this visual indicator.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::We could simply de-link the "anyone can edit" links... they just seemed like a good way to get people to actually read our policies and what we need. Or maybe we could link that text directly to [[Help:Contents]] and get rid of the "Editing Tips" box altogether?
::::::I agree with the "Main Page" link being disabled when you're actually on the Main Page. It's pretty easy to do via CSS, and you can also change the cursor to be a regular arrow in CSS to further de-emphasize the links and say, "Hey, dude, you're already ''at'' the Main Page."
::::::Although I had actually thought that 8% of clicks was to the Recent Changes page, which would have made more sense to me. The oddness of where the stat boxes are in relation to the actual page links does make it hard to analyze. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::AS FAR AS I CAN TELL (which in a few cases - the continuities box especially - is less than 100%), these are all the numbers >1.0%:
:::::::*Logo (goes to Main Page): 4.0%
:::::::*"Navigation" sidebar:
:::::::**Main Page link in sidebar: 4.0%
:::::::**Recent changes: 5.3%
:::::::*Fake disambig:
:::::::**"anyone can edit" (goes to "editing-tips" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::**"add to" (goes to "holy-grails" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::*Categories:
:::::::**Characters: 1.8%
:::::::*Continuities:
:::::::**Live-action film: 1.4%
:::::::**Full Series Info: 4.0%
:::::::*Also, the cumulative links to the ROTF page appear to be >1%, even if no individual link is.
:::::::Thoughts on that... firstly, the links TO the main page ON the main page need to be nerfed. Not greyed out, killed. The logo can be just a logo, and the main page link can be replaced or removed. Secondly, there is no way in hell we should delink the stuff in the fake disambig, but redirecting to other places may be a better idea - take the "editing tips" box and turn it into a full page, linked from there (And from the ET box). Not quite so sure on "add to" - a list of stubs that we want filled out, perhaps? The "Holy Grails" box is too specific for 99.9% of potential editors, I expect. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:32, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Useful Extensions ==

Now that we have a working server again and more control over the techie side of things, I wonder if we should start up a list of extensions to install that might be useful.

My own picks:

*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog Extension:Newuserlog] to keep track of new users so we can give them a [[User:Jeysie/NewUser|friendly greeting]]. As opposed to our current status of new people not usually getting much of a "greeting" unless they screw up. :>
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MultiBoilerplate Extension:MultiBoilerplate] to provide a drop-down menu of skeleton codes for new pages. I find this ''incredibly'' useful on my own wiki for being able to easily keep different types of pages all laid out the same, by inserting full page structures into new pages so you can then just fill in the information. For example, [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Template:D20RulesPlayercharacterpage here's one structure page] I use to give an idea of the sort of code you can inset.

:Mine:
:*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Title_Blacklist Extension:Title Blacklist] blocks creation of pages depending on a regular expression.

:I will note that Newuserlog is built into MediaWiki 1.14.0, but we haven't discussed upgrading the software yet... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:25, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

::Honestly, those "friendly greetings" drive me spare. I'd really rather not have them.
::Suggestions:
::*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself] (prevents users or anons editing User:* pages other than their own.) [Beta] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:47, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be fine with blocking anons-- but I ''have'' been known to reach out and tweak someone's user page from time to time.
:::(Not that we've really had a problem with either.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::Why do they drive you spare? Giving new users a heads-up regards our policies ''before'' we have to slap a nastygram user notice on their page seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They drive me spare getting them while doing IP-edits. And chances are you'll get them again, and again, and again... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh! No, no, no. I didn't mean doing them automatically on all new users, I was thinking, like, putting the greeting ''manually'' only for new ''registered'' users. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:09, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

==Rise of the Chevy Autobots==
Allright, I finally got around to putting this up. This is everything I have saved from the "Rise of the Chevy Autobots" online game - flash files, HTML, etc. It comes to nearly 60mb.

[http://www.obscuretf.com/ChevyAutobotGame.zip Chevy Autobots]

Unfortunately, I am most likely missing the last week or two of the story, but I figure it's better than nothing. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 14:18, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:Monzo- I luvers you...
:And AFIK the defeat of Mainframe himself never got a news update-- the epilogue was provided by the game itself. So you ''should'' have the most up to date version.
:Uh, I suppose there might have been a "he's weakening, keep at it" update, but that's pretty content-null. It'd be nice to know the date Mainframe went down... but again, it looks like you've got 99% of everything preserved here. :)~
:And now we can properly cite the Chevy Autobots being allspark mutations! (Or at least a result of Chevy's experimentation with Energon as an alternative fuel source.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::{{quote|'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
::::::::::{{quote|Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

Signed, 
Liz Calkins}}
::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::But like Jeysie said, GFDL ''already'' has those problems, it's a Share-Alike-style license and has all the weird ambiguities that CC-By-SA has for a fandom wiki, so I'm not sure how switching advances the Brave Copyright Cause and exposes TFWiki to legal troubles anymore than the license we're already stuck with? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::^^ This. And, you're still not paying attention to anything else I've said either.
::::::::::Hasbro has control over their copyright. And, to be perfectly honest, in the end Hasbro has full control over ''our'' stuff too anyway because it's technically unauthorized derivative works. I've known several fangames once where the parent company basically made them either sign control of the game over to them or delete the games entirely. What the fangame people wanted to do with their games regards licensing meant precisely jack, because they didn't control the copyright their work was based on. This is exactly the same situation.
::::::::::We can get away with making people not licensed by Hasbro follow our rules regards our content, but that's it. If Hasbro wants to use our content, they have the right to dictate the terms of use, not us.
::::::::::Now, if we were writing entirely original work here that wasn't based on any existing property, ''then'' we could dictate terms, because Hasbro would be using something that we had full copyright control over. ''That's'' where forcing people into using the same Share-Alike license comes into play. But since Hasbro made the initial things we're deriving ''our'' work from, we have to play by their rules for their content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:21, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::But copyright-- even with derived works-- is ''not'' a black-and-white thing with one owner. If I made a "Freddy Krueger vs. Aliens" fanfilm, New Line Cinema can't claim 100% ownership over my work simply by virtue of the fact that they can't claim ownership over aliens. But they ''also'' can't claim ownership over my original character heroine. That belongs to '''me''', not New Line or Fox.
:::::::::::Either New Line or Fox could scuttle my project (if I was insane enough to try and distribuit it) or even keep me from putting it up on YouTube-- because the work cannot exist without their copyrighted characters.
:::::::::::But, even ''after'' that happened, there's nothing to prevent me from re-filming the movie as "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" with my fanchar heroine intact. Despite not having the right to use Fox and new Lines characters... the "value added" elements of my copyright-violating production '''remain my property'''.
:::::::::::And your failure to understand that is what's keeping you fron understanding the implications of SA3.
:::::::::::I freely ''admit'' they're largely '''abstract''' implications, because no one of us or hasbro actually ''cares''... but I also think that this licensing switchover is being pushed by a group with an agenda in mind that boils down to ''"get a lot of people (mainly Wikipedia) to switch their licensing, and watch legal havoc that ensues after a couple years as unforeseen implications start fucking up the copyright of books, TV episodes and movies, making their copyright status so murky, debatable and indeterminate that they essentially become legally piratable."'' and while GFDL might have some of those same problems, '''it''' isn't the license they're urging people to switch to.
:::::::::::So if both licenses are '''equally bad''', I'd much rather stick with the one we currently have rather than switch to the one that's probably going to be challenged in the supreme court 5 years from now.
:::::::::::Or at the ''very'' least have a conversation where the burden is on CC-BY-SA3 to show some ''benefit'' to us for switching, and not on me to prove GFDL is better. Why is our action simply being ''taken for granted'' here? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Well, I understand how ''copyright'' actually works, because I've seen people have to deal with it. I don't understand your comment on the whole deal, no, because it makes no sense.
::::::::::::It's true that if Hasbro objects to our wiki writing about Transformers we could technically re-write it to refer to something similar but different enough to avoid Hasbro's copyright. However, unlike your "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" example, our doing that would be useless. In this case, it's not our value-added elements that make the wiki useful, it's the fact that the wiki is about Transformers. Take away the "about Transformers" part, and our wiki becomes pointless. Hasbro's copyright ''is'' the intrinsic value of this wiki.
::::::::::::So yes, it is an abstract implication, but it's not because nobody cares.
::::::::::::As for why switch, it basically boils down to: if we are compliant with the GDFL, then switching to the CC-BY-SA means we have the same restrictions, ''and'' will also have our info be incompatible for usage with anyone who stays on the GDFL, and we'll be able to require attribution. Basically, it gives us some benefits above the existing GDFL's benefits, without adding or removing any restrictions.
::::::::::::If we're ''not'' compliant with the GDFL due to Hasbro's copyright claims, then it turns out we're not bound by the GDFL anyway, because we never had the legal right to claim that license on our work. In which case, again, we get to ignore all this and switch to whatever license someplace like Memory Alpha has.
::::::::::::But in either case, switching gives us benefits over the current GDFL. So it really is on you to prove why staying with the GDFL is better, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:31, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Whaaat? No, Derik's right. Windmills and copyright do not work that way. J. K. Rowling does not have the right to re-publish Dumbledore/Grindelwald Harry Potter [[fanfic]]. Original owners have the right to stop distribution of unauthorized derivatives, but they don't have the right to anything not already created by themselves. (So that would mean yes, ironically, fanfiction authors could C&D original authors infringing on the fanfiction's copyrights. But somehow I think they would restrain themselves.) 
And if we're violating the GFDL by using it to document Transformers, we aren't then "not bound;" because that would mean our existence is illegal, and we don't get to throw up our hands and say "Well we're already illegal, might as well be illegal in a totally different way!" So no, we can't just ignore everything and switch to any license but CC-By-SA-3.0. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 13:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:I know that Hasbro doesn't have the right to simply go ahead and publish our work without any agreement with us. But, based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner. We don't have the right to force Hasbro to use our work according to certain terms as long as it's a derivative of their work.
:As for our existence being illegal, well yeah, if you want to get technical, we're already as illegal as all other fanworks anyway. I don't see what the validity or otherwise of the contract the work was created under has to do with it, if the contract allows you to do that type of work.
:But essentially, the core of my confusion with Derik's concerns is: I don't see how he could be claiming we can ever force Hasbro to follow our terms on derivative works, when our work is already a derivative of Hasbro's work, and thus we already have to follow Hasbro's terms on derivative work. I mean, it's not that his concerns don't make sense to me from a general perspective. It's that they only make sense to me if we're the originator on top of the derivative work chain, which isn't the case here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:34, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::''based on my experiences with seeing other fan creators dealing with legal things regards their work, they do have the right to either make us take our work down, or relinquish our rights to it in some manner.''
::They have the right to threaten or strongarm someone, and the person they're threatening has the right to cave. But they have no ability to "make you relinquish your rights."
::The idea that New Line owns ''everything'' in any work I created means that they'd be claiming ownership not just of my Mary Sue, but also of Fox's Aliens. So that's clearly not true on the face of it. There is a completely unprooven legal theory that a copyright owner could actually ''own'' all the value-added additions made to a derived work... but it has '''literally''' never been tested (because Paramount has no desire to own a lot of Kirk/Spock bondage fics) and there is a strong suspicion that if it ever ''went'' to trial, the entire concept would be shot down.
::Regardless-- you're '''again''' arguing "my experience," and that's the ''fundamental'' source of the musunderstanding here. You're talking about how the law is actually '''implemented'''. I'm talking about what the law '''is'''. In '''your experience''', no one cares if you go through a red light if there's no one around. But I'm telling you it's '''still illegal'''.
::And since the ''kind'' of illegal we're talking about can have a slow corrosive effect on Hasbro's copyrights, that abstract legality could come back to bite us ''and'' Hasbro in the ass. So I'd like to have a real, ''actual'' discussion about this. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:54, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Um, the entire ''point'' of copyright is that you have control over how your copyrighted work is used. If you create something using copyrighted work, then the copyright holder very much has control over what you do with it, because you're using their copyrights. Otherwise, why have copyright to begin with?
:::Now, if you remove the copyrighted material from your work, ''then'', yes, the copyright holder indeed has no control over your work, because it has no copyrighted material. Problem is that, while that might help out a fancreator if they can change their work into something original, it does us no good, because the entire point of our wiki is that it's about Transformers specifically. We could technically rewrite it to not be about Transformers, but that would just defeat the point.
:::My ''experience'' is that fanworks are always illegal, it's just that most of the time companies turn their head because usually it nets them more goodwill and publicity than anything the fanwork is taking away from them. But it's within a company's rights to turn around and tell you to either take your fanwork down, change it so it no longer contains their copyrights, or obtain a waiver from them/sign over your rights to continue displaying it.
:::Basically, the reason this is weird is because, you seem like you're saying that we can tell people who create derivative work based from our work how to use it, yet also saying that Hasbro doesn't have the same right to tell us how to use the derivative work we created from their work. Why would we have certain copyright rights, yet Hasbro not have those same rights? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:28, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Ehh, you know what, this is all getting way, way off track. The only real question worth considering that's been raised with all this is whether we had a right to claim our work fits under the GDFL to begin with. If we did, then switching makes sense. If we didn't, then the contract is technically void/annulled, and we need to switch to some new license regardless. Either way, staying with the GDFL itself seems pointless to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:19, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

:I don't trust that table. I dont' feel informed after viewing it, I feel brushed off.
:I think I need to re-read me the full GFDL to do a proper comparison.
:<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I was hoping I wouldn't have to read this thing again. Last time I had drugs to make it better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:20, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, so from what you're saying, the problem with Creative Commons is that... by jumping on the CC bandwagon we might become part of a bigger target in the culture wars or otherwise pull Hasbro into the line of fire, because a CC-licensed thing is more likely to get its day in court someday, because it's popular. Whereas the GFDL, with which we shall stay for ever and ever, will safely gather dust in the FSF's basement for the next hundred years where the light of legal precedent can never touch it.

And also a problem is if Hasbro or its licensees try to reuse our content and unwittingly license their own work under Creative Commons. Honestly, if they make a mistake like that... it's their mistake. It's no different from plagiarizing a random Transformers blog. It shouldn't happen, and it's not our responsibility if someone, somewhere might forget to do due diligence in a hypothetical future. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 21:33, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Asking for permission to post links==
I'm the current Bureaucrat at [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com Ghostbusters Wiki], and there was interest in placing links to articles on this wiki to Ghostbusters wiki articles, and likewise placing links on Ghostbusters wiki to articles relating to content which has been brought up. I don't know a great deal of your wikis past dealings, other than wikia apparently kept your old wiki's content when you moved. Anyways, the wiki would rather reference to your present wiki than the one currently at wikia. We are hoping you wouldn't mind the links to our characters on pages related to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Race_with_the_Devil Race with the Devil] article. [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/User:Devilmanozzy Devilmanozzy] 02:10, June 8, 2009 (EDT)

:Can you give a few examples of articles on your wiki which would benefit from having links to this site? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC it's whatshername's assistants-- the ones from the Earthforce story (Running with the Devil?) that Wildman based on the RGB models.
::(I personally have no problem with the links. Though I think this guy added 'em once, misformatted, and they got reverted.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That wasn't Nozzy but Liberal Noob, while not logged in. I told the original guy to take a step back and mind their P's and Q's before we start crosslinking, especially since it was an anonymous IP at the time. But yeah, he wants to crosslink with Race the Devil and Susan Hoffman.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:43, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Only direct link between the Ghostbusters Cartoon and the G1 Transformers cartoon is [[Frank Welker]] sounded like one of his TF roles when he voiced a ghost from time to time. I a am sorry for my wanton linking and it will not happen again. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 22:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant which pages on the Ghostbusters wiki would benefit from having links on them to our wiki. I'm curious, because I regard myself as reasonably familiar with Ghostbusters, and I can't think offhand of any references to Transformers in it. Perhaps in one of the cartoons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks for the replies on this matter. A good user Liberal Noob had requested that I would more address this, apparently the mod needed to say something and form a partnership in order to have links posted related to one anothers material. To answer the question of what articles would be hyperlinked, I believe he was planning on linking to the animated pages for Peter Venkman, Egon Spengler, and Ray Stantz. Thats what I understand is being requested to being linked to.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 19:42, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::We're not wondering which pages on our wiki would link to your wiki. We were wondering which pages on your wiki would need to link to our wiki. We didn't know there ''were'' any Transformers references in any Ghostbusters media, and thus didn't know you'd need to link to us from your wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Race with the Devil]], [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Starscream's Ghost]], [[Horri-Bull]], and a few others. Links will be on is a article on [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters_Cameos Ghostbusters Cameos]. Note I believe that the section will be better built soon.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 20:21, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Seems like there's a few other connections in terms of voice actors ([[Tara Strong]], [[Frank Welker]], [[Maurice LaMarche]] etc) as well. I think linking between the two sites is a good idea. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah I had noticed that too as I looked around here the last few days. Never knew how much Ghostbusters and Transformers had in common.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 23:40, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::While I'm broadly in favour of this, could you maybe change "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" to "[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's ghost]]" - I understand you want to keep the ghost theme going but the first is a link to an unrelated episode of the cartoon series, rather than the character himself. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 07:02, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::OK Emvee, I fixed the link on the Ghostbusters wiki as you requested. Devilmanozzy, ''[[Star Wars]]'' also has a [[Darth Vader|lot in common]] with ''Transformers''. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 14:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::We know, we got named an official friend of Wookiepedia about a week into the [[Project: Bookworm Crash]]. If we hadn't been scrambling to pick up the pieces, our pages would probably reflect this more. (I assume we'll integrate more when Clone Wars starts up again, since we love to attention-whore ourselves that way.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/dan-akroyd-ghostbusterhero/ Here is] an obscure crossover from [[The Real Effing Deal]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:09, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

== Quick Links? ==

You know, now that I think about it, one thing Wikia actually did do right was having some "Quick Links" on the sidebar. I find myself missing being able to quickly get to the main continuities/series without having to search or click to the Main Page first. (Especially now that there's lots o' ROTF toys to keep tabs on...)

Nothing extensive necessary; just one linkie thingy with a fly-out menu for our six main continuities and the full series list would probably work nicely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think notably M.Sipher *really* hated that because any time a cursor went within a parsec of the menu, it would pop out in an annoying manner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::Wasn't just Sipher - it drove me nuts too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, in that case, maybe just an extra sidemenu then, kind of like the "Campaign Navigation" box on [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Main_Page this sidebar]? I just figured that a fly-out menu would save space, but an extra link sidebar would work for me too.
:::But I'd definitely like something. As Abates points out below, we don't currently have any sidebar links for actually ''browsing''. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Could we make so that they're fly-out menus, but that they only fly-out if you actually click on the title? That would save room while avoiding things jumping out when you're waving the cursor around. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think having a link on the sidebar for Revenge of the Fallen would be good too. While the Community portal and Recent Changes links are great for us Editors, they're not likely to be used much by casual visitors. We should be using the menu to draw attention to major articles. While I'm thinking about it, we could probably change the Main Page link to read "Transformers Wiki"... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I went ahead and popped a link to [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] in the navigation menu? I'm thinking between "Main Page" and "Community portal". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not of the upper brass but given the increasing coverage of ROTF as we come down the wire, it'd make the most sense. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 19:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== We need a new adspace ==

The TFwiki on our new server is doing super mega amounts of bandwidth! (Note I've broken up the OPtimus Prime (G1) page, because, dude, that thing was a monster.) So, uh, I think we need to add a new adspace. One that's *above* the fold, since the ones we have are shoved down in the corner where no one can see them. What advertiser would want to dump loads of money on those? What I'm proposing is a 486x60 banner-shaped ad up above the "article/discussion/edit/history/delete/move/watch" links, nestled in between the Teletraan 1 image and the personal toolbar. (You know, OUTSIDE of the content.) If this is a terrible idea, I will also accept $5 donations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:14, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I've no qualms with that. That was one of the "acceptable" adspaces, if I recall from the old discussions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:18, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Long as they don't dance or talk or sing, that'll work. Are we actively pursuing advertisers these days? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:22, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, "actively pursuing advertisers" is somewhat incompatible with our current ad setup. To put an ad on our site now, that requires signing up with Project Wonderful and bidding. This is good for us because it's mostly automated. If we were to set up a "real" in the traditional sense, we'd need a full-time ad pursuer to fill those spots. The best we can do in our current situation is to try to convince Big Bad Toy Store and its ilk to sign up for Project Wonderful. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:33, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:IIRC, above-the-article is what we wanted Wikia to switch ''back'' to. I have no objection. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. How does Ant handle TFU.info's advertising? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

:Doesn't bother me... but can we either put it ''under'' the personal bar, or somehow make it so the personal bar would wrap? Otherwise, I'm staring at the top of my screen and realizing that I'd have an annoying horizontal scroll bar afterwards whenever I'm logged in.
:I have to admit I'm kind of befuddled that we're apparently doing so much more traffic after the move than we were before, to the point of having all those initial problems because we weren't expecting it. Did the new server somehow improve our traffic, it is sheer coincidence that traffic increased for other reasons, or was it more like the old server wasn't keeping track of bandwidth or anything, so we had no idea how we were actually doing? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:38, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Hosting with Bookworm was cheap. I mean, he was doing it at-cost. Or would have, if he ever invoiced us. Now that we've moved on, we're purchasing hosting from people who actually want to make money off us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:41, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, the money's part of it, but I was also thinking about how most of our initial operational troubles seemed to stem from having more traffic to deal with than we realized we were going to have, to the point of even having to run a caching setup I'm guessing we weren't running on the old server. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:45, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The way Bookworm had his servers set up, it was difficult for him to separate out what was our traffic versus what was other traffic on the same server. He gave us an estimate which turned out to be wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Aah, OK. Wasn't sure if it was something we needed to worry about or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:29, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I was kinda expecting this :( I'm cool with more banners, and I think you should beg us for money now and then. We may be able to help when we can. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:15, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Caching is what most mediawiki installations '''do.''' We happened to start off on the most resource-intensive wiki software imaginable, and any stats from Bookworm were not only inaccurate based on whatever he was doing in the logs, but also because back then, ''the wiki was constantly crashing.'' You get zero hits per hour when it's down, and no stats in the world would help clear ''that'' up. I'm still tweaking the hit stats, and it'll be at least a week before I can start extrapolating growth numbers, but suffice it to say, we're going to go over our current bandwidth limit before the month is out, and while we won't get shut down, we ''will'' get billed for overages. Think of it like a normal cellphone plan instead of a pre-paid one. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:47, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, that's mainly what I thought Walky meant. Nestled between the personal bar and the article tabs seems like fertile ground for a banner ad.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:39, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've got the ad code ready to go, whenever we can edit the CSS or whatever to make room. Here is our awesome new placeholder "please bid here" graphic: [https://www.projectwonderful.com/imagewrapper.php?img=img/uploads/pics/20719-1244569575.jpg&rand=439981] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Looks good so far. Potentially odd question: are these particular dimensions popular with Project Wonderful?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::The Leaderboard (700ishx90) and the Big Box (300x250) are the most popular sizes, but those would really ugly up our page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And now it has its first client! That was fast.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Ahhh, Dreamland Chronicles is awesome. I spent a week a few months back reading through their archives after following an ad on our sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One interesting thing looking at the Project Wonderful stats is that our ad hits are ''stabilizing'' now, and they're stabilizing fairly high relative to where they were when the site was still spotty. That's got to look good for advertisers, and if the site holds up to the abuse that the film debut is going to subject it to that's only beneficial to us in the end.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Ptbar-notmeanttobehere.png|thumb|This = bad]]
Uh, I'm using Monobook, and as a result of this, the watchlist/preferences/etc bar has somehow ended up at the ''bottom'' of the page, just above the About Transformers Wiki/Powered by MediaWiki/etc... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got that on a couple of pages, too, and alt+F5ing didn't work. How I fixed it was I signed out and viewed those same pages as an anon. The userbar went back to where it should be, and it stayed there when I logged in again. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Tried that, didn't work.
::In fact, it's worse than I thought, because I didn't notice at first that the page/discussion/edit tabs have gone wandering too, and are floating around the place (the "discussion" and "edit" tabs are currently in the middle of this edit box, and I can't see the others anywhere). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::'''THE PROBLEM IS IN common.css'''.
:::The following CSS borks monobook. This is why you should use the specific stylesheets for each skin, NOT the common file:
<pre>
#p-personal {
position: relative;
}

#p-personal .pBody {
float: right;
}

#p-cactions {
position: relative;
}

#content {
margin-top: 16px !important;
position: relative;
}</pre>
:::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

The new ad space at the top of the page, which was fine yesterday, is now looking screwy in Firefox, with the ad behind the top of the Autobot symbol in the logo and the tabs at the top of the bar. Like so: [[Image:Top-ad-screwy.jpg|thumb]] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:43, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works fine for me in 3.0.10 and 3.5b99, both after clearing cache.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I made some CSS modifications in response to SanityOrMadness's issue, which may cache improperly. Try a hard refresh/clearing your cache. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:51, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, clearing my cache fixed it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

=== Is it working? ===
So, between the new banner and our ad display stats in general being ''much'' better since the server stabilized, does this mean that we're taking in what we need to?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think so! We're averaging about $5 a day, which means $150 a month. Our hosting is... $80-ish? But how much of that $150 we'll have to spend a month remains to be seen, since we're going to be doing a lot more than our monthly allotted bandwidth. And there's a movie yet to premiere! So, uh, we'll have a better idea once the month is over. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:00, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::Assuming we ever end up with more money than we need, David, I suggest you cover yourself in gold. 14 caret gold. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:42, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::If anyone's getting covered in gold, it's McFly and Scout! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

==Consolidate front page?==
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009.jpg|thumb]]
Man, that front banner is huge! Can it be smaller? And when we make it smaller, can we stack up the top-most two boxes next to it like so? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
: The cropped image shown, of course, is just a placeholder. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks about as clunky as Wikia's frontpage, IMO.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:05, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, it's not fine-tuned or anything. Thing is, either that banner's going to be cut down or removed entirely. It's huge, it's bandwidth-wasting, and it pushes all our real content down off the page. What's your choice? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm probably knee-jerking based on the placement of the boxes. I guess it could be made to work if it's finessed a bit. It's not like we're running a ginormous ad there like Wikia was suggesting.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:31, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I dunno, personally I like this new idea. It reminds me of how our franchise navs look: Logo on the left, linkage on the right. Plus, yeah, unlike Wikia, our content on the right of the logo will actually be... content.
:::::As for logo ideas, why don't we make a few different options where it's the TFWiki.net logo over a pic of a single character? We could have one for Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, etc. using the <OPTION> thingy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::As long as the site-name logo thing itself is HUGE. I really want to make sure the URL is shoved in your face. Branding continues to be important as we war against Wikia for Google prominence. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If branding's important, why not change the actual on-every-page logo to use the actual TFWiki.net logo? And put TFWiki.net in the page <title>? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:01, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Alternately, each one could be a group shot from a different franchise, with the font altered to match. Play up how many different continuities there are, eh?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009b.jpg|thumb]]
::::::::This image to the right is what I'm now thinking. And it should probably have movie characters predominantly, at least for the next few months. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm inclined to agree with sticking with the movie characters now, considering it's almost two weeks till the US premiere/release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:19, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

That's pretty darn good. Brings a lot more info above the fold, and the layout's pretty clean. The white background is good too, so any other images in the rotation should follow that example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:21, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:How do we make it done? The table markup on the frontpage is foreign to me. I'll upload the new image itself... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Since Derik doesn't seem to be about yet, I'll have a go with it. Hmm. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, we're really going to have to do something like your first example above, with the Continuity/Category tables underneath each other instead of side-by-side, because trying to fit the logo and the two tables all side-by-side looks hideously awful on a 1024px-wide screen. I tried just simply having the smaller logo, the text notices under it, and the two tables on the right, but it looked kind of... eh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Mrr. OK, I made ''an'' attempt at tweaking, although I think it's going to need some external CSS tweaks at least, if only to center the Continuities table. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looks okay, but the jarring thing about it is that the red and blue boxes aren't the same width, though they share a column.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's something Derik needs to tweak in the Featured box template and/or external CSS... I can't do it just by editing the page itself.
::::::Also, yea or nay on the link buttons? It just seemed a little more "Click me!" than the paragraph o' links. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I dig 'em. Good design decision, IMO. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Quite aside from anything else... what's the point in liking to tfwiki.info with an image link. It ''just about'' made sense as a text link, but is only going to confuse people who click on the Autobot symbol and end up back where they started. We need to cut down on main page-to-main page links, '''not''' obfuscate where they link to. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Visual consistency. (And the mouseover text indicated it was an "alternate URL".) But, I tried tweaking it again. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's fixed! Huzzah!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:46, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I realized I was just approaching it the wrong way. Eheh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

: I'm a little ambivalent towards the "new" logo, just because I think it's a little bland, although I'm sure it's a work in progress. I am all for putting "TFWIKI.net" in the header and all over the fucking place as a branding effort, though. On a slightly related note, I'd consider flipping the "current series" in said box, so ROTF is closer to the center of the page and Animated is on the outside - if we're really trying to bring in ROTF traffic, having that logo front and center is probably a pretty smart idea. I also like the idea of a rotating logo box - maybe we even jigger it so that it links directly to the article for whoever's in it - like the Go! Boxes, but focused entirely on core characters (More Fallen, Movie Optimus, etc., less Irwin Spoon and Dinobots Strike Back). Stick with primary Movie-verse guys for now, and then in a month or so when the hype dies down, we can start to shuffle in some sufficiently advanced and significant articles (making sure that the characters are both important to the fiction and that their articles are nearly, if not entirely complete). [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:17, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds like a good idea. I'm down with that. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Boxswap.jpg|right|350px]]
I has new idea for what module ought to be above the fold, and more ROTF promotiony stuff. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sure, I'd go for it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Considering how crowded and text-heavy the front page is, I think the best way to draw attention to the banner is to surround it in as much empty space as possible, [[User:Magnus Maximus/Temp|something like this]], especially as the new banner's white background assimilates the page's whitespace so easily. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:10, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure how that's really different than it is now, other than putting the site notice at the top... which I kind of hate doing, because that pushes all of the content stuff down. The site notice is temporary anyway.
:I was thinking we ought to make the movie stuff more prominent, rather than the continuity/category modules. I was also thinking of placing the banner, site notice, and external website links in one cell instead of two like it is now, which further creates whitespace... I just didn't think of that until after I made the layout change proposal pic.
:I do agree/think maybe we could stand to lose a few modules, though... maybe ditch the Categories module entirely, and consolidate the Holy Grails and Editing Tips somehow. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:32, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh yeah, you're running a 1024 desktop, aren't you? I changed my res to 1024, and you're right, it really doesn't look much different. But [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3349/tfwikitemp1280.jpg this] is how it looks in 1280, and even that little bit of extra space makes a huge difference compared with how it is [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4606/tfwikinow1280.jpg now] (in my opinion).
::I agree about the notice, but I couldn't think where else to put it. Putting it under the banner (thus between the blue and grey boxes) made it seem wedged-in and out of place. Lesser of two evils, you dig?
::I also agree about making the movie stuff more prominent, but the red and blue boxes are narrower, so they take up less of the horizontal space. I did think that maybe we could change the featured series box so that ROTF is ''on top'' of Animated instead of beside it, and shift that up next to the banner somewhat like it is on my temp page now. That also adapts to 1024 better, I think.
::And yeah, losing some of the boxes would not be the worst thing in the world. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ehh... my problem with that idea is that, one of the reasons we redesigned the Main Page to begin with is because our greeting was so big that it was pushing useful content down below the fold. This sort of recreates that exact same problem.
:::But, I tried tweaking my Main Page design here: [[User:Jeysie/Main Page]] to give more whitespace. I figure that once the movie's been out for a while and we don't need to pimp it as much, we can replace the Featured Characters box with the Continuities box. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:50, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::I was looking at the front page right now and thinking about some things - I'm glad to see most of them are in line with what's already considered. :)
::That said, I suggest taking TFA out of the featured series box, even if only temporarily, and using the [[:Image:Revenge fallen logo.jpg|logo from the franchise page]]. I feel it's more recognisable as the ROTF logo than the more colourful one we have there, plus we can make it a bit bigger.
::I also wonder if we should have "Transformers Wiki" written on there somewhere other than the site logo in the sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

:::: "TFWIKI.net - THE Transformers Wiki"? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:49, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I made up a [[:Image:Wikilogo big.psd|PSD template]] of just such a logo this morning. It's layered, so the transparent overlay of the Autobot leaders is optional.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:18, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I definitely prefer the font of the current TFWIKI.NET logo to that one.
::::::Whatever we ultimately do though, surely we should use the same logo EVERYWHERE, including for the top-left logo, ja? (There's also the recurring thought that we have a G1 Autobot sigil for the top-left logo, but a '''G2''' Autobot sigil for the favicon. I understand that the G2 favicon is unique, which was the main reason we went for it, but if we're thinking about branding...) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Logo===
[[Image:TFwikilogomock.png|right]]
If we want to be movie-centric AND use the TFWiki.net logo extensively for branding reasons, shouldn't we change the Animated-based logo to something more like this? (NB: Quick mock to make a point, '''not''' intended to be actually used, and may clash with the Teletraan on the Monacobook skin). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think we do need to keep some visual distinctiveness. If we go too far into the grey look of the movie we end up with understandable confusion concerning its resemblance to [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monaco-logo.png this].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah. I'm really really fine with keeping our current page design/color scheme. The Wikia site is really gray, and I'd rather not veer to close to that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::[Joke Suggestion] How about we make ours ''on fire''? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:27, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It wouldn't actually be ''that'' hard to do... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Featured-series box===
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series}}
|view=User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
Should we perhaps rebalance the featured-series box to be more like this? (Yes, I know there's a too-high gap between the two lines to the right of the TFA logo. It didn't preview like that, and I can't see why it's doing that.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:That's pretty darn sweet-looking, IMHO. I tried swapping around [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my take on the Main Page]] to include a slightly modified version of it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:16, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::The way it is on the mainpage right now looks really great. Good density of info above-the-fold.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:19, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Or rather on Jeysie's test page, I see now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thing about including [[Main Page/featured-characters]] in it like that (which I just edited to increase the header-size to be visually bigger than the character names, and debold the character names themselves) is that if you separate that from above AND below with a line, you visually make it into a franchise by itself. TFA needs a stronger separator from ROTF than the ROTF stuff does within itself. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:39, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
|view=Main Page/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
How about this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. I added it to my test Main Page with a few minor formatting tweaks. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks excellent to me! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:23, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Are we doing to do this then? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Was wondering that myself. Any more tweaks or suggestions to add, or should we go with my mockup? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:02, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::The mockup looks pretty solid to me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I say go for it! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:46, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Looking again at the featured-characters bit... is Sideswipe really the best choice for that fourth spot on row 1? I already changed Soundwave to Devastator, because the latter has been a LOT more prominent in promos for the movie, but I'm not sure who would be best for a fourth Autobot. Jetfire? Skids & Mudflap? (I'm not even sure if Ironhide is best for the third slot). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:54, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I was trying to think of a balance between which characters were most prominent and which people were likely to be excited about... we could go for Optimus, Bumblebee, Jetfire, and Skids & Mudflap together in the last spot. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:03, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Made that change for now, then. I think "prominence" should probably be the main factor, if we want to grab users. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:14, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

===Featured article===
Now that the featured series box has been sorted... nothing against Kup, but do we have a movie/ROTF article that could possibly take the featured spot at some point between now and the 19th? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[The Fallen]] is at Featured Article status. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::And has been the Featured Article for awhile at A Certain Other Place. I'd rather not mirror them in that respect, personally.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:22, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::In that case... I've got no idea. None of the rest are at FA status, and I can't think of which one would be most relevant to pick on for cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:31, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Surely the three most obvious non-Fallen articles "to pick on for cleanup" are [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)]] and [[Sam Witwicky]], ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:51, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Simmons might be mroe fun. ;)
:::::And Megatron more enlightening, if someone wants to take a whack at his DS-game backstory. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:17, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Looks like Primal Prime is the featured article at that other place, not The Fallen. In fact, it looks like their Fallen article has a cleanup tag, not a featured tag... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:07, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, someone replaced it a couple of days ago after noticing that their "The Fallen" article wasn't up to scratch. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:40, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Any objection to us featuring our superior The Fallen article after all, then? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, on the 24th, the Fallen's page is going up. ESPECIALLY if it's also up at Wikia. Our Fallen page has to supercede theirs, and burying it on the most important week of its life isn't gonna work in our favor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Hell, if we want to upstage 'em over at Wikia, just put [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] as one of the featured characters. I was over there just to see how far the site had gone downhill and it surprised me. They ''don't even have a page for Sideswipe'', it just redirects you to G1 Sideswipe. How sad is that?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 00:13, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:How hard did you look? I wont link it for obvious reasons, but there IS a page for him. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:22, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he got messed up by the fact that the Main Page links to "Sideswipe" without the parenthetical, which does indeed redirect to G1 Sideswipe.
::Having said that, their proper ROTF Sideswipe page is still miserable compared to ours, as is the fact that they got the Main Page linking wrong.
::Not only that... I also noticed that one of their registered users, while editing their Main Page, managed to change their Twitter link to our Twitter in the process. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah I didn't look very hard (alcohol is a helluva thing), the link was what I went for. Obviously someone over there screwed up. You got a problem with it Cattleprod, kiss my shiny, metal ass.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:29, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

===Text Purging===
Next possible round of changes:
I've tweaked [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my setup]] to remove the Categories module (is it really that useful?) and try to reduce/consolidate the Editing Tips/Holy Grails section.

I also think we should do a purge of the Series box and stick to just the "major" series/franchises: Generation 1, Generation 2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, the two movies, and Universe. (Possibly also Classics and/or Beast Machines). We have the comprehensive list linked to for anyone who really wants to look at everything. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:The categories box is useful for two reasons: (1) In and of itself, it's useful. I certainly use it. (2) Without it, your mockup has an empty white space in the right column almost the exact size and shape of the categories box... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:49, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I further note that, [[:Image:Mainpage analytics-06-05-09.png|per Derik's statdump]], it ''gets used''. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:53, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::Well, if you can suggest other ways to clean up our Main Page, I'm all for it. As it is, I agree with Walky that it's getting to be too much of a sea of text, and that struck me as being one of the least useful of the modules. I guess we could consolidate it somehow with the Continuities module as a sort of "Quick Links" box...
::We possibly could also get rid of the Editing Tips and Holy Grail modules, but I kind of hate doing that, as it's nice to try to encourage new editors to look at that sort of information. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::Thing is, if I click on the first link in the Categories box because I want to find a particular character, I get a big confusing list of subcategories and... [[Mickey Mouse]]. If I'm a casual user looking for,say, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], that doesn't help me much, because then I have to hunt through the subcategories for something that looks like it might lead me there. Yes, it's possible that I might notice the search box and use that instead, but that kinda takes away from the point of having that there in the first place.
::Though technically I guess I'm complaining about the organisation of the Characters category rather than the box itself. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

== Jokes? ==

It is sometimes very hard to find relevant information on this wiki among all the juvenile humor. It's a little off-putting for a casual user like myself. I know this wiki is about robots who turn into cars, but, c'mon... Maybe tone it down a bit?[[Special:Contributions/71.107.102.102|71.107.102.102]] 16:56, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

:No. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 17:00, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::If you can point out specific instances where the humor is getting in the way of the information, we'll take those under consideration for adjusting, but on the whole we here tend to appreciate the humor. (Including this editor back when she was a newbie/casual reader.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::As does the overwhelming majority of the readership, it seems. We've gotten praise from all circles for the "do not take it too seriously" approach, even from industry professionals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Tech Upgrades ==

Since we're cracking 1.5 million hits per day, I'm running an alternate webserver for testing over on [http://tfwiki.net:8080/ port 8080.] It's *not* cached, so I expect it to be a smidge slower, but I'm also aggressively tweaking it for better content compression and lower memory usage. It probably doesn't matter *now,* but I suspect that as we close in on the movie, and then as the movie is released and the edits go up, we're going to need to squeeze out every last ounce of performance available to us. That said, can you guys try to break it via logging in/out, editing articles, etc.? It's all on the same database, so any changes made there WILL show up here (and vice versa,) but my major concern is that we don't have those damned login session problems and their ilk going forward. Thanks! --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:05, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:So... an "editing copy" on one server, and a cached copy on another? Because 99% of TFWiki readers aren't editors? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:53, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::Let's not overcomplicate it. Test on the new link, the software driving that will replace the existing (more resource intensive) software '''if it's any good.''' At this point, I want to find out if there are any bugs, and that's that. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got a 405 error when I tried to upload an image on there, but otherwise it seems to be working great. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

=="Wikia wiki" boilerplate==
Between FortMax, Skyjammer and myself, I believe all instances of "Teletraan-I a wikia wiki" etc have been removed from our webpages. Huzzah! Hopefully that will help our Google stats and suchlike, unless I am mis-remembering how those things work... --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 18:31, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:*thumbsup!* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:28, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

== Special:Imagelist ==

Is there any way to strip out the deleted images from [[Special:Imagelist]]? It's kinda useless as things stand. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:11, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Anonymous users ==

Right, the movie goes wide-release in the UK on Friday (I think there may be some previews on Thursday). Thinking about the chaos that may result [and noting that Memory Alpha - much to Wikia's displeasure - disabled ALL editing between the first opening of ''Star Trek'' and its' wide release in the US.]... I think we should give serious consideration to disabling anonymous editing from at least the 18th to the 26th of June.

Thoughts? Objections? Flames? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:I've been advocating that for over a month. It's the same thing we did with Animated: material is blocked for anons until it comes out in America. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::I wasn't talking about blocking specific pages, though (in the way a load of ''Animated'' pages were semi-protected) - just a blanket ban on anonymous editing until ''at least'' the 26th (and I would prefer a week or two beyond that). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:57, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'd much prefer if it wasn't a total block. Block anons on all the movie char character articles, etc. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::Block until a week after the movie's released in the States, namely the chara articles and the film page itself (who knows what poor soul will "unknowingly" put in spoilerific in the synopsis/trivia/notes/what-have-you). It's already difficult enough with the adaptation... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm not just worried about spoilers, but about the casual vandalism associated with a sudden & short-lived spike in visitor numbers, which probably wouldn't be limited to the movie pages. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:10, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::If we do so, should we have a site-wide message like Memory Alpha? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:08, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At least I know we can use [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], I'm not sure whether there is any other similar message. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:37, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::Wow, some serious US-centric bias being spouted. If you don't want spoiled, then don't visit. It's now well established internet etiquette to avoid forums about a week before a film's release. Same should apply here. Or..... wait til the DVD is released before unlocking movie edits, just in case you're stuck in Outer Mongolia at the time of the cinema release. Anonymous editing should be blocked, if only to stop the inevitable trolling and vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 14:07, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Er, no. For one, the 24th is the '''world''' premiere, meaning the vast majority of countries are getting it on that date, not just the US.
:::::::::For two, we need to be able to monitor all edits made to ROTF articles to make sure they're accurate and factual, and we can't do that if most of the wiki's regular editors haven't even seen the movie.
:::::::::So this has less to do with spoilers, and more with the entirely practical aim of being able to keep tabs on all ROTF edits effectively. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:19, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Gosh, thanks, I'll take your advice under consideration.... wait, no, I really won't. If you have a problem with "U.S.-centric bias," you are in the wrong place: this is openly stated as a U.S.-centric wiki. We blocked anonymous edits to the new ''Animated'' episodes that for some damnfool reason were aired first in Dubai, until they were uploaded online for everyone to see. Our U.S.-based editors shouldn't have to stop working on a website that, to a large extent, ''they created'', just out of fear that some collection of I.P. numbers will thoughtlessly spoil the movie for them. Better to just anon-protect all the movie-related pages until after all the major markets have had their premieres. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:12, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

My vote is for blocking all anons from the movie-related pages for at least one week after the world premier, maybe two. I would not be opposed to a site-wide block, however. I really have no interest in cleaning up after a flood of one-timers and trolls and crap. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:23, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hey, I'm all for the lockage. But to stop the wave of trolls that will come. Not because Americans seem to think they have the <insert deity>-given right to subjugate the free speech of others who have the rare opportuity to experience something before the Americans do. That hardly ever happens. America gets everything first; cars, movies, fat, gadgets, first dibs on invasion etc. Thankfully they don't get irony first.[[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 15:38, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Did you even read the post where I pointed out the vast majority of TF fans, both US and non-US, won't be seeing the movie before the 24th, because the vast majority of countries in general aren't getting it until the 24th?
:::Basically, all TF fans not in the UK and Japan aren't going to be getting to see the movie before the 24th. It's not as if we're making editing wait because everyone else is getting the movie early and the US is the only country that isn't.
:::All of our Canadian, Australian, non-UK European, non-Japan Asian, etc. editors are likely equally glad we're waiting. Maybe you should stop and actually think before you go off spouting jerkass strawman accusations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Are you ''intentionally'' aiming for self-parody, or did you actually seriously just try to frame your potentially being locked out of our privately-run, privately-financed web site about giant alien space robots for a few days as a ''freedom of speech'' issue? 'Cause that right there is some serious comedy gold, sir. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:54, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'm afraid there are no Internet Oscars for maudlin self-victimization, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in. Here we only talk about Transformers. You are free to start doing that any old time. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hahaha, did he just equate being able to post to a wiki about cartoon robots for a few days... to the right to free speech? Man, and I thought education was bad over HERE! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:03, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

===One derailment later...===
So, then, back on the subject... I still think we should do it. Mr Anon isn't making me think less of it as an idea. And yes, a [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] would be essential. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:33, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:So, we're all for blocking anons for a week after the 24th? --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:31, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::They're gonna get pissy, but sounds good to me. But what about the editors who can't log in, is that still a problem?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 09:52, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Most likely. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Which editors who can't log in? The problem with IE users not being able to log in was fixed when McFly fixed all the other problems on the site. I haven't heard of any reports of anyone else having the problem... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:32, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's not a case of being technically unable to log in. Its a case of NOT DESIRING to log in because people are at work or at school or where there are shared computers. When I was at school, I certainly didn't want to log in, and a few other people felt the same way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah! Of course. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Transformers Comic" ==

Okay, I've got three issues at present with the titling treatment of the Titan Movie comics:
#Ambiguity - if you look at, say, [[Transformers Comic issue 9]], there's ''at least'' three Transformers #9s with no subtitle - [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|Marvel G1 US #9]], [[Man of Iron!|Marvel G1 UK #9]], and [[Transformers Comic issue 9|Titan Movie #9]]; and currently the only one at "Transformers Comic issue 9" is the Titan Movie issue
#DO we go by issue, or by story? - We're all over the shop on this:
#*The Marvel US issues are all at the story titles, but these pages incorporate any "Transformers Universe" bio material
#*The Marvel UK issues almost all have multiple stories or parts of stories, and I think there may even be some issues with multiple UK-originated/non-reprint stories, and each story is at its' own page, ''which incorporates multiple issues'' (e.g., [[Time Wars]]), leaving aside editorial and other non-story material.
#*The Marvel G2 issues almost all have backups, sometimes nominal, sometimes not, and they're all at the title of the lead/non-"Tales of Earth" story (e.g. [[New Dawn]]).
#*The ''first'' Panini Armada issue is at the story title ([[First Encounter!]]), while the ''rest'' are at "Panini Armada issue X" (e.g., [[Panini Armada issue 2]]).
#*The IDW issues are at the issue title even where the issue is split into multiple, titled. stories (e.g. [[The Arrival issue 4]])
#The actual title of the Titan Movie issues - Titan Movie v1 #22-25 are actually titled ''Transformers: Universe'' #22-25 (mostly in reflection of it absorbing the cancelled ''Animated'' comic), but are still at "Transformers Comic issue XX"; while v2, titled ''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' #XX, is at the truly bizarre "Transformers Comic 2.XX". Really, just because the letters page said 2.x once, rather than "Revenge of the Fallen (Titan) issue X", which is what's on the cover?
What are we doing with this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:As I've said before, I do NOT favor consistency here. A one-size-fits-all approach will inevitably fail to encompass the widely variable situations with various comic series.
:The Marvel US book are under the story titles because, for all intents and purposes, the story and the issue are one and the same. Likewise for most of Dreamwave's G1 run. Sure, we could move 'em all to "The Transformers issue 2 (Marvel US)", but what do we ''gain''? How is this any better than "Power Play!"? What is the benefit? Mere consistency is insufficient reason.
:This is much, much less true with the UK comic, where stories were broken into two and even three parts, and multiple stories shared page space in the same issue. Now, I've heard rumblings to the effect that each UK issue should have its own page, and there's merit to that, insofar as each issue's contents are a mixed bag - minicomics, letters pages, and pieces and parts of various stories. It might make sense to have a page for each issue, basically a list of its contents, with ''See main article'' links to the entire story -- so, say, UK #88, #89, #90, or whatever, all link to a single page for "Target: 2006".
:With G2, it absolutely makes complete sense to combine the two stories. The "backup" strips are such in name only; they are absolutely integral to the main strip, and neither can be read without the other. Separating "Tales of Earth" bits into their own pages is only going to confuse things and make them ''less informative''. Furthermore, the main strip clearly ''is'' the MAIN strip. It makes sense to cover the whole story under that strip's title. Our current system for G2 acknowledges this, while still distinguishing between the contents of each section. The alternative is to move each page to "Generation 2 issue 2" or whatever... and I don't see what we gain by doing this.
:The Titan comics should be moved to whatever the cover and indicia call them. If they're just ''Transformers'' or something equally generic, well, that's what parenthetical disambigs are for. Likewise for the ROTF reboot. A simple (Titan) should cover the bases well enough, yes?
:A recent trend has been issues with 2 discreet stories, such as the ''Animated'' books you mention. I've long been in favor of having a single page for the ''issue'' for such books, with ''See main article'' links to the individual stories within them - so "Animated: The Arrival issue 2" would be a list of stuff, with two prominent links within to pages about the two stories it contains. Still, I can understand if people see that as unnecessarily messy -- so long as they can agree that, since the stories are pretty much co-equal, it would make no sense at all to give one or the other naming precedence.
:So, that's my take. Case-by-case basis FTW, baby. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:43, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:Also, to address item #1 specifically... if we do stick with "Transformers" as the title, there should be a disambig note for Transformers at the top. Unless "Comic" is in the title, it shouldn't be in there. I'm thinking the article names should be "Transformers issue 1 (Titan)", etc., with the parenthetical at the end of the page title, rather than the middle.
:These books generally have stories from different continuities, don't they? That's a point in favor of separating the story content out from the containing issue. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

::Personally I've been using "Comic issue" because that's what the pages were before I started adding to the wikli, and "issue 2." stuck with the former way of numbering things (and was easier to type...). If naming them after the title (so from #22 it's Transformers Universe or Transformers ROTF etc) would make more sense, I'd be happy to go with that.
::As for whether or not to have specific issue or story pages, I'd say if we're going to have individual pages for each issue of IDW and Dreamwave miniseries (not to mention multi-parters in the cartoons), it wouldn't make sense not to for Titan. There's already a precedent that if we do this for post-Marvel comics. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] 20:25, 19 June 2009 (GMT)

== Non-movie (Movie) characters vs. movie (ROTF) characters with the same name ==

Anyone else think we should, at the very least, have {{tl|disambig2}}s on pages like [[Jetfire (Movie)]] and [[Mudflap (Movie)]] to the ROTF characters of the same name? Yes, I realise users could go via the disambig page, but I see it as making things simpler & easier for newbies, and in that scenario one click is always better than two. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think I'd cautiously support adding a <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki> for characters of the same name within the same continuity if there seems like a good chance for confusion. I'd oppose imposing it as an across-the-board standard though. (You're nto suggesting that though.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I oppose it on the principle that multiple disambig templates on a page is ugly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:47, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ugly, and you can get to where you need to go through the disambig. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Here's the thing though - '''is it intiutive''' for a complete newbie, who came in via ROTF, to see "Optimus Prime (Movie)", "Bumblebee (Movie)" and "Megatron (Movie)" '''and not immediately conclude''' that the Jetfire article will be at "Jetfire (Movie)", rather than some incredibly obscure card-puzzle that even we don't have a final picture for?
:::::Hell, even take it a step up from "complete newbie" to someone who sat through Beast Wars/Machines or Armada/Energon/Cybertron, where characters changed bodies between series so that they had very little resemblance to their prior selves (in the UT's case, without any explanation). Those guys might assume that "Mudflap (Movie)" *is* Skids' twin even if he bears no resemblance to him. And it was a guy making that exact mistake and getting reverted by you last night that caused me to post this.
:::::I really think a BIG, prominent link DIRECTLY from the obscure (Movie) character to the prominent (ROTF) character is required. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:26, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::As long as there's a link to the same-universe namesake in the intro, I see no need for an additional disambig template. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:21, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on that note, I added just such a line for [[Mudflap (Movie)]]. It seemed especially appropriate for him, since he's an Autobot wannabe who precedes an actual Autobot of the same name. That having been said, though, I don't dislike the [[:Template:disambigrotf]] template you cooked up, Sanity. It's a little unwieldy, but it's probably as succinct as such a thing could ever be. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I did the same for Jolt, who had the wal-mart version for the first movie and it was deleted... I was told "that's what disambig is for." [[User:Cliffjumper prime|Cliffjumper prime]] 01:12, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, I'm generally in favor of intro-links because they allow for a bit more elaboration. If it's just a disambig, then we're presenting the characters as though they are definitively separate individuals with no connection to each other, even though in most cases there's just too little evidence to say one way or t'other. The absence of information is, itself, noteworthy. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I favour user-friendliness over concerns about how ugly or pretty it makes things look. I think those of you arguing about how ugly it makes things look and disambig3 doing the job are working under the assumption readers are fairly knowledgeable about how this wiki operates. I find that attitude to be rather unhelpful and presumptive. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Indeed. I still have a problem with not redirecting [[Optimus Prime (Energon)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Armada)]], [[Optimus Primal (BW)]]->[[Optimus Primal]], [[Optimus Prime (ROTF)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], etc. It seems almost ''wilfully'' inconsistent to not have an equivalent parenthetical available for every character in a series to aid in newbies' browsing & editing. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:01, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't like the expanded ROTF disambig box. I like how Charles RB did it on the [[Sideswipe (Movie)]] page. A little tack-on to the continuity note. Although in Sideswipe's case I think the pages could actually be merged. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::As opposed to assuming that every reader is retarded and can't figure out [[Jetfire (Movie)]] is not the same character as [[Jetfire (ROTF)]]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Go look at pictures of the UT Hot Shots and get back to us (NB: First example which leapt to mind, but by no means the only one).
::::::::::It's not as if there isn't precedent for stuff without any real resemblance to each other to be randomly declared the "same character" in Transformers. Especially since "Jetfire (Movie)" is no character at all - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:32, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::Why on god's green earth would someone look at a page called "Jetfire (Movie)" and assume that they have NOT found Jetfire from the live-action movie series? Why would the expected, logical, inevitable response be, hey, there must be another guy by the exact same name in the movie series! ? That's like, the exact opposite of retarded. It's unretarded. It's ''logical''. The truth of the matter, that there's two guys in the same continuity with the exact same name, doesn't make a damn lick of sense.
::::::::::Assumption of prior knowledge is a rampant problem in this fandom. Around here we're supposed to be smarter than that, though! We should be able to step back from our microscopic inspection of things and say, "Hey, this whole deal really is retarded. Let's clarify it." Thus I am ''heavily'' in favor of liberal disambiguation. Not only does it make things clearer for the reader, it also increases the chances of the reader working their way into the obscure backwaters of the site -- which is what we want, is it not? If it makes the page look "ugly", well, that's OUR problem, isn't it? Why should the reader experience suffer because of a shortcoming on our end? Maybe we need to expand our diambiguation template options, instead of rejecting the notion on aesthetic grounds. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 16:14, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::I'd agree with not keeping this in the disambig. Though I see pages that had it outside the disambig section have been edited, so I presume it's now the policy to keep the information there? -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] 00:56, 20 June 2009 (GMT)
:::::::::::Well said. I agree without reservation.
:::::::::::And on that note, I'd not only like to see more liberal redirecting (really, if "Optimus Prime" appears in ''Energon'' there is no way on Xal's green Earth there shouldn't be a valid [[Optimus Prime (Energon)]] page, even if it's just a redirect), but ALSO a general desnarking of mainpics (not captions, the ''actual pictures'' themselves) - stuff like the "self portrait" on [[Grimlock (G1)]] or the Cyber-Slammers pic on [[Brawl (Movie)]] (why... I mean WHY?!) only - and I quote from {{tl|desnark}} - "interfer[es] with the delivery of information on th[e] page." Have the pics on the page, sure, but NOT as a mainpic. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::That Cyber-Slammers pic will be removed over my fucking dead body. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Why?
:::::::::::::No, really, why? The jokiness is stated, in an official policy, as being '''all right as long as it doesn't replace something more useful'''. The whole point of a main pic is that it's the ur-version of a character, the single most representative version. If you need a pic of the character to show off how it would look in most people's minds, it would be a strong candidate if not a shoe-in.
:::::::::::::Other than you, WHO THE HELL WOULD THINK OF THE CYBER-SLAMMER FIRST?! - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:22, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I don't see why the Cyber-Slammer image is anti-information. It's a perfectly good image of Brawl/Devastator! Just not one that you particularly like. And it's not just me. It's not like I put the image there! The only people I've ever seen speak out against the image are you and random anons. So there. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:24, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::The only problem I see with spare diambigs like "Optimus Prime (Energon)" is that if you're typing in "Optimus Pr" into the Search box, a list of "Optimus Pr*" pages is gonna come up. It's already a long list, limited by our software to 8 results. With the extra disambigs, potentially useful results might scroll off the list entirely.
::::::::::::As for the images... eh. We're not *that* rampant with the jokey images. More importantly, you can scroll down Grimlock's page and quickly see lots of pictures of him across various media. The main pic isn't significantly inhibiting the flow of information, IMO. For Brawl... we *could* use a few more full-body shots of him near the top of the page, last time I checked at least. -- [[Special:Contributions/99.151.96.72|99.151.96.72]] 18:11, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Redirects are automatically flagged in several ways by the software - is there really no way to either exclude them from the search suggestions, or (preferably) just throw them to the bottom of the pile?
::::::::::::::Yes, but every time I've suggested doing ''just that'' instead of the zealous (overzealous, IMO) purging of redirects, someone comes up with like 3 examples where "we ''really'' want this redirect to show up." And those 3 examples somehow outweigh the 3000 links you ''don't'' want in the search suggestion box. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:26, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::And no, we're not "that rampant" - all the more reason that we shouldn't be doing it at all. Like I say, the whole point of a main pic is to show the single most identifable version of the character in one shot. The two examples I mentioned (I'm sure I could find more, but those are the two which stick in my head) are completely the opposite - a kid's-scrawl "self-portrait" from an obscure 5-page B&W Marvel UK backup, and a version of a character that barely resembles the movie/fiction model. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:22, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::WHERE WILL SOMEONE FIND A PICTURE OF GRIMLOCK IF NOT AT THE TOP OF THE TFWIKI ARTICLE?! -[[User:LV|LV]] 20:09, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::I withdraw my "ugly" comment now that we have the disambiguations melded into a single table. I just didn't want a tower of them. I see no reason for not doing it this way we're doing it now. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:29, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-06-19T17:49:26Z

Fleb: /* Derik causes problems */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

'''The server move:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive33|Archive 33]]
}}

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:That's a note, not a quote. The site unfortunately has plenty of problems in IE6, mostly caused by Microsoft's crappy rendering engine. A few of them linger in IE7 too... We really need to come up with a replacement for the messageboxes which doesn't lose the right-hand edge for one thing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description) |(issue number) |(issue title) |(artist list) |(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |letters= |help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |script= |pencils= |inks= |colours= |letters= |help= |year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::With no reported problems from the ppl running Kired Tools, this plugin has been moved to the common file, and is now loaded for all Wiki users.
:::So if anything unexpected breaks tonight please report it here, since the preview script will be the likely suspect. (But we don't expect it to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:53, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's now been said '''thrice''' in this thread that the UK/Eire date is the 19th. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]]
:::::::::::Beg your pardon, then. It was late, and I wasn't paying close enough attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::Damn Americans think they're the centre of the Universe. If I was President of the US, I'd invade the UK and Ireland to protect American Transfan interests. 14:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I read the novel and have this to say: As much detail as is in it, there's no doubt its different. First of all: there's alot more detail so that means some of the slower parts are probably shorter in the movie (novels often do that anyways so no problems there) and also: in one chapter it leads up to fight and then on the very next chapter all of a sudden Devestator appears and is fighting already as if he's been there the whole time (meaning they skipped a chunk of that fight)So as is obvious, there will be differences.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<<not that it matters

==Forgive my attitude but==
what the flying f***! What happened to my account. I made one, I even remember what it looked like. Where is it and why can't I login and my username no longer exsists! What..the..hell. I've not signed in for a long time but I still go here regularly and everything, don't tell me you autodeleted my account! I mean, I’ve been here when it was at Wikia, I moved with you guys here and even made a new account here! Hell, my old accounts on Wikia all got deleted, so please don’t tell me you guys stooped to their level and deleted my account as well! I’ve done nothing wrong, aside from giving the appearance of being inactive because I’ve not logged in within awhile, but so what? What right does that give you to delete my account? (and if by some means it does give you the right to do so, please provide a link proving that)--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<< not that it matters
:[[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Thank you. I'll just make a new account then.-sighs- Forgive if I bothered any of you with what I just said.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
::Don't worry, incoherent rage is the '''proper''' response to the Bookworm crash... you're just slowpoking. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Main page ==

[[Image:Mainpage_analytics-06-05-09.png|thumb]]
I'll just leave this here...

(I'll check in after work and see if anyone has thoughts, I sure do.)

Number are per-individual-link BTW-- so two separate links to the same location have their clickthroughs tallied separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
: In which we learn nobody clicks anything! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::The numbers on the page ''should'' add up to 100%. It's just that a few links get vastly more traffic than the others so they show up as 0%. That might represent a few hundred clicks-- the Main Page ''is'' our most frequented page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:12, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::And people are obviously clicking on [[Kup (G1)]] as the page has gained a thousand hits and jumped 30 places in the Popular Pages list in the last week or so. Any idea what time frame the data covers? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::That was pretty much my thought, too. XD Although it is kind of interesting that some of the categories/continuities/series sections seem more popular than others... it's just hard to tell which ones, since the number pop-ups are in weird spots.
::I also notice that the "images" link in the Editing Tips is popular... and that apparently the fake disambiguation links get some clicks. XD Speaking of which, we really should write up some more of those to replace the rotating ones that got lost in the crash... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:26, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I may have sternly directed people to our Images policy page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:49, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's the most common thing people get wrong, so it's also our most thorough policy document.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::About 8% of clicks on the main page are to our "anyone can edit" but up top-- which just takes people to anchors within the page. (The Editing tips section and the Holy Grails section, which do not themselves then collect a lot of clicks.)
:::::This leads me to think that people who click on these things do ''not'' get what they want/are expecting. We should look at changing those links somehow.
:::::Another 8 % of clicks on the main page are on the "home" logo in the upper left (which takes you... back to the main page) and the "main page" link in the nav toolbar.
:::::If there's agreement, I'd like to set it so that the "Main Page" link in the navigation on the left is grayed out when you're on the main page, so it's clearer that "you're here." (The link would still be usable, it'd just have this visual indicator.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::We could simply de-link the "anyone can edit" links... they just seemed like a good way to get people to actually read our policies and what we need. Or maybe we could link that text directly to [[Help:Contents]] and get rid of the "Editing Tips" box altogether?
::::::I agree with the "Main Page" link being disabled when you're actually on the Main Page. It's pretty easy to do via CSS, and you can also change the cursor to be a regular arrow in CSS to further de-emphasize the links and say, "Hey, dude, you're already ''at'' the Main Page."
::::::Although I had actually thought that 8% of clicks was to the Recent Changes page, which would have made more sense to me. The oddness of where the stat boxes are in relation to the actual page links does make it hard to analyze. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::AS FAR AS I CAN TELL (which in a few cases - the continuities box especially - is less than 100%), these are all the numbers >1.0%:
:::::::*Logo (goes to Main Page): 4.0%
:::::::*"Navigation" sidebar:
:::::::**Main Page link in sidebar: 4.0%
:::::::**Recent changes: 5.3%
:::::::*Fake disambig:
:::::::**"anyone can edit" (goes to "editing-tips" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::**"add to" (goes to "holy-grails" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::*Categories:
:::::::**Characters: 1.8%
:::::::*Continuities:
:::::::**Live-action film: 1.4%
:::::::**Full Series Info: 4.0%
:::::::*Also, the cumulative links to the ROTF page appear to be >1%, even if no individual link is.
:::::::Thoughts on that... firstly, the links TO the main page ON the main page need to be nerfed. Not greyed out, killed. The logo can be just a logo, and the main page link can be replaced or removed. Secondly, there is no way in hell we should delink the stuff in the fake disambig, but redirecting to other places may be a better idea - take the "editing tips" box and turn it into a full page, linked from there (And from the ET box). Not quite so sure on "add to" - a list of stubs that we want filled out, perhaps? The "Holy Grails" box is too specific for 99.9% of potential editors, I expect. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:32, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Useful Extensions ==

Now that we have a working server again and more control over the techie side of things, I wonder if we should start up a list of extensions to install that might be useful.

My own picks:

*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog Extension:Newuserlog] to keep track of new users so we can give them a [[User:Jeysie/NewUser|friendly greeting]]. As opposed to our current status of new people not usually getting much of a "greeting" unless they screw up. :>
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MultiBoilerplate Extension:MultiBoilerplate] to provide a drop-down menu of skeleton codes for new pages. I find this ''incredibly'' useful on my own wiki for being able to easily keep different types of pages all laid out the same, by inserting full page structures into new pages so you can then just fill in the information. For example, [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Template:D20RulesPlayercharacterpage here's one structure page] I use to give an idea of the sort of code you can inset.

:Mine:
:*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Title_Blacklist Extension:Title Blacklist] blocks creation of pages depending on a regular expression.

:I will note that Newuserlog is built into MediaWiki 1.14.0, but we haven't discussed upgrading the software yet... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:25, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

::Honestly, those "friendly greetings" drive me spare. I'd really rather not have them.
::Suggestions:
::*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself] (prevents users or anons editing User:* pages other than their own.) [Beta] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:47, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be fine with blocking anons-- but I ''have'' been known to reach out and tweak someone's user page from time to time.
:::(Not that we've really had a problem with either.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::Why do they drive you spare? Giving new users a heads-up regards our policies ''before'' we have to slap a nastygram user notice on their page seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They drive me spare getting them while doing IP-edits. And chances are you'll get them again, and again, and again... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh! No, no, no. I didn't mean doing them automatically on all new users, I was thinking, like, putting the greeting ''manually'' only for new ''registered'' users. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:09, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

==Rise of the Chevy Autobots==
Allright, I finally got around to putting this up. This is everything I have saved from the "Rise of the Chevy Autobots" online game - flash files, HTML, etc. It comes to nearly 60mb.

[http://www.obscuretf.com/ChevyAutobotGame.zip Chevy Autobots]

Unfortunately, I am most likely missing the last week or two of the story, but I figure it's better than nothing. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 14:18, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:Monzo- I luvers you...
:And AFIK the defeat of Mainframe himself never got a news update-- the epilogue was provided by the game itself. So you ''should'' have the most up to date version.
:Uh, I suppose there might have been a "he's weakening, keep at it" update, but that's pretty content-null. It'd be nice to know the date Mainframe went down... but again, it looks like you've got 99% of everything preserved here. :)~
:And now we can properly cite the Chevy Autobots being allspark mutations! (Or at least a result of Chevy's experimentation with Energon as an alternative fuel source.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::{{quote|'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
::::::::::{{quote|Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

Signed, 
Liz Calkins}}
::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::But like Jeysie said, GFDL ''already'' has those problems, it's a Share-Alike-style license and has all the weird ambiguities that CC-By-SA has for a fandom wiki, so I'm not sure how switching advances the Brave Copyright Cause and exposes TFWiki to legal troubles anymore than the license we're already stuck with? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::^^ This. And, you're still not paying attention to anything else I've said either.
::::::::::Hasbro has control over their copyright. And, to be perfectly honest, in the end Hasbro has full control over ''our'' stuff too anyway because it's technically unauthorized derivative works. I've known several fangames once where the parent company basically made them either sign control of the game over to them or delete the games entirely. What the fangame people wanted to do with their games regards licensing meant precisely jack, because they didn't control the copyright their work was based on. This is exactly the same situation.
::::::::::We can get away with making people not licensed by Hasbro follow our rules regards our content, but that's it. If Hasbro wants to use our content, they have the right to dictate the terms of use, not us.
::::::::::Now, if we were writing entirely original work here that wasn't based on any existing property, ''then'' we could dictate terms, because Hasbro would be using something that we had full copyright control over. ''That's'' where forcing people into using the same Share-Alike license comes into play. But since Hasbro made the initial things we're deriving ''our'' work from, we have to play by their rules for their content. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:21, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::But copyright-- even with derived works-- is ''not'' a black-and-white thing with one owner. If I made a "Freddy Krueger vs. Aliens" fanfilm, New Line Cinema can't claim 100% ownership over my work simply by virtue of the fact that they can't claim ownership over aliens. But they ''also'' can't claim ownership over my original character heroine. That belongs to '''me''', not New Line or Fox.
:::::::::::Either New Line or Fox could scuttle my project (if I was insane enough to try and distribuit it) or even keep me from putting it up on YouTube-- because the work cannot exist without their copyrighted characters.
:::::::::::But, even ''after'' that happened, there's nothing to prevent me from re-filming the movie as "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" with my fanchar heroine intact. Despite not having the right to use Fox and new Lines characters... the "value added" elements of my copyright-violating production '''remain my property'''.
:::::::::::And your failure to understand that is what's keeping you fron understanding the implications of SA3.
:::::::::::I freely ''admit'' they're largely '''abstract''' implications, because no one of us or hasbro actually ''cares''... but I also think that this licensing switchover is being pushed by a group with an agenda in mind that boils down to ''"get a lot of people (mainly Wikipedia) to switch their licensing, and watch legal havoc that ensues after a couple years as unforeseen implications start fucking up the copyright of books, TV episodes and movies, making their copyright status so murky, debatable and indeterminate that they essentially become legally piratable."'' and while GFDL might have some of those same problems, '''it''' isn't the license they're urging people to switch to.
:::::::::::So if both licenses are '''equally bad''', I'd much rather stick with the one we currently have rather than switch to the one that's probably going to be challenged in the supreme court 5 years from now.
:::::::::::Or at the ''very'' least have a conversation where the burden is on CC-BY-SA3 to show some ''benefit'' to us for switching, and not on me to prove GFDL is better. Why is our action simply being ''taken for granted'' here? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Well, I understand how ''copyright'' actually works, because I've seen people have to deal with it. I don't understand your comment on the whole deal, no, because it makes no sense.
::::::::::::It's true that if Hasbro objects to our wiki writing about Transformers we could technically re-write it to refer to something similar but different enough to avoid Hasbro's copyright. However, unlike your "Dr. Jeckel vs. the Moorlocks" example, our doing that would be useless. In this case, it's not our value-added elements that make the wiki useful, it's the fact that the wiki is about Transformers. Take away the "about Transformers" part, and our wiki becomes pointless. Hasbro's copyright ''is'' the intrinsic value of this wiki.
::::::::::::So yes, it is an abstract implication, but it's not because nobody cares.
::::::::::::As for why switch, it basically boils down to: if we are compliant with the GDFL, then switching to the CC-BY-SA means we have the same restrictions, ''and'' will also have our info be incompatible for usage with anyone who stays on the GDFL, and we'll be able to require attribution. Basically, it gives us some benefits above the existing GDFL's benefits, without adding or removing any restrictions.
::::::::::::If we're ''not'' compliant with the GDFL due to Hasbro's copyright claims, then it turns out we're not bound by the GDFL anyway, because we never had the legal right to claim that license on our work. In which case, again, we get to ignore all this and switch to whatever license someplace like Memory Alpha has.
::::::::::::But in either case, switching gives us benefits over the current GDFL. So it really is on you to prove why staying with the GDFL is better, sorry. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:31, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Whaaat? No, Derik's right. Windmills and copyright do not work that way. J. K. Rowling does not have the right to re-publish Dumbledore/Grindelwald Harry Potter [[fanfic]]. Original owners have the right to stop distribution of unauthorized derivatives, but they don't have the right to anything not already created by themselves. (So that would mean yes, ironically, fanfiction authors could C&D original authors infringing on the fanfiction's copyrights. But somehow I think they would restrain themselves.) 
And if we're violating the GFDL by using it to document Transformers, we aren't then "not bound;" because that would mean our existence is illegal, and we don't get to throw up our hands and say "Well we're already illegal, might as well be illegal in a totally different way!" So no, we can't just ignore everything and switch to any license but CC-By-SA-3.0. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 13:49, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

:I don't trust that table. I dont' feel informed after viewing it, I feel brushed off.
:I think I need to re-read me the full GFDL to do a proper comparison.
:<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> I was hoping I wouldn't have to read this thing again. Last time I had drugs to make it better. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:20, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Asking for permission to post links==
I'm the current Bureaucrat at [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com Ghostbusters Wiki], and there was interest in placing links to articles on this wiki to Ghostbusters wiki articles, and likewise placing links on Ghostbusters wiki to articles relating to content which has been brought up. I don't know a great deal of your wikis past dealings, other than wikia apparently kept your old wiki's content when you moved. Anyways, the wiki would rather reference to your present wiki than the one currently at wikia. We are hoping you wouldn't mind the links to our characters on pages related to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Race_with_the_Devil Race with the Devil] article. [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/User:Devilmanozzy Devilmanozzy] 02:10, June 8, 2009 (EDT)

:Can you give a few examples of articles on your wiki which would benefit from having links to this site? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC it's whatshername's assistants-- the ones from the Earthforce story (Running with the Devil?) that Wildman based on the RGB models.
::(I personally have no problem with the links. Though I think this guy added 'em once, misformatted, and they got reverted.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That wasn't Nozzy but Liberal Noob, while not logged in. I told the original guy to take a step back and mind their P's and Q's before we start crosslinking, especially since it was an anonymous IP at the time. But yeah, he wants to crosslink with Race the Devil and Susan Hoffman.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:43, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Only direct link between the Ghostbusters Cartoon and the G1 Transformers cartoon is [[Frank Welker]] sounded like one of his TF roles when he voiced a ghost from time to time. I a am sorry for my wanton linking and it will not happen again. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 22:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant which pages on the Ghostbusters wiki would benefit from having links on them to our wiki. I'm curious, because I regard myself as reasonably familiar with Ghostbusters, and I can't think offhand of any references to Transformers in it. Perhaps in one of the cartoons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks for the replies on this matter. A good user Liberal Noob had requested that I would more address this, apparently the mod needed to say something and form a partnership in order to have links posted related to one anothers material. To answer the question of what articles would be hyperlinked, I believe he was planning on linking to the animated pages for Peter Venkman, Egon Spengler, and Ray Stantz. Thats what I understand is being requested to being linked to.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 19:42, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::We're not wondering which pages on our wiki would link to your wiki. We were wondering which pages on your wiki would need to link to our wiki. We didn't know there ''were'' any Transformers references in any Ghostbusters media, and thus didn't know you'd need to link to us from your wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Race with the Devil]], [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Starscream's Ghost]], [[Horri-Bull]], and a few others. Links will be on is a article on [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters_Cameos Ghostbusters Cameos]. Note I believe that the section will be better built soon.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 20:21, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Seems like there's a few other connections in terms of voice actors ([[Tara Strong]], [[Frank Welker]], [[Maurice LaMarche]] etc) as well. I think linking between the two sites is a good idea. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah I had noticed that too as I looked around here the last few days. Never knew how much Ghostbusters and Transformers had in common.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 23:40, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::While I'm broadly in favour of this, could you maybe change "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" to "[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's ghost]]" - I understand you want to keep the ghost theme going but the first is a link to an unrelated episode of the cartoon series, rather than the character himself. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 07:02, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::OK Emvee, I fixed the link on the Ghostbusters wiki as you requested. Devilmanozzy, ''[[Star Wars]]'' also has a [[Darth Vader|lot in common]] with ''Transformers''. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 14:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::We know, we got named an official friend of Wookiepedia about a week into the [[Project: Bookworm Crash]]. If we hadn't been scrambling to pick up the pieces, our pages would probably reflect this more. (I assume we'll integrate more when Clone Wars starts up again, since we love to attention-whore ourselves that way.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/dan-akroyd-ghostbusterhero/ Here is] an obscure crossover from [[The Real Effing Deal]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:09, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

== Quick Links? ==

You know, now that I think about it, one thing Wikia actually did do right was having some "Quick Links" on the sidebar. I find myself missing being able to quickly get to the main continuities/series without having to search or click to the Main Page first. (Especially now that there's lots o' ROTF toys to keep tabs on...)

Nothing extensive necessary; just one linkie thingy with a fly-out menu for our six main continuities and the full series list would probably work nicely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think notably M.Sipher *really* hated that because any time a cursor went within a parsec of the menu, it would pop out in an annoying manner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::Wasn't just Sipher - it drove me nuts too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, in that case, maybe just an extra sidemenu then, kind of like the "Campaign Navigation" box on [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Main_Page this sidebar]? I just figured that a fly-out menu would save space, but an extra link sidebar would work for me too.
:::But I'd definitely like something. As Abates points out below, we don't currently have any sidebar links for actually ''browsing''. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Could we make so that they're fly-out menus, but that they only fly-out if you actually click on the title? That would save room while avoiding things jumping out when you're waving the cursor around. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think having a link on the sidebar for Revenge of the Fallen would be good too. While the Community portal and Recent Changes links are great for us Editors, they're not likely to be used much by casual visitors. We should be using the menu to draw attention to major articles. While I'm thinking about it, we could probably change the Main Page link to read "Transformers Wiki"... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I went ahead and popped a link to [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] in the navigation menu? I'm thinking between "Main Page" and "Community portal". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not of the upper brass but given the increasing coverage of ROTF as we come down the wire, it'd make the most sense. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 19:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== We need a new adspace ==

The TFwiki on our new server is doing super mega amounts of bandwidth! (Note I've broken up the OPtimus Prime (G1) page, because, dude, that thing was a monster.) So, uh, I think we need to add a new adspace. One that's *above* the fold, since the ones we have are shoved down in the corner where no one can see them. What advertiser would want to dump loads of money on those? What I'm proposing is a 486x60 banner-shaped ad up above the "article/discussion/edit/history/delete/move/watch" links, nestled in between the Teletraan 1 image and the personal toolbar. (You know, OUTSIDE of the content.) If this is a terrible idea, I will also accept $5 donations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:14, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I've no qualms with that. That was one of the "acceptable" adspaces, if I recall from the old discussions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:18, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Long as they don't dance or talk or sing, that'll work. Are we actively pursuing advertisers these days? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:22, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, "actively pursuing advertisers" is somewhat incompatible with our current ad setup. To put an ad on our site now, that requires signing up with Project Wonderful and bidding. This is good for us because it's mostly automated. If we were to set up a "real" in the traditional sense, we'd need a full-time ad pursuer to fill those spots. The best we can do in our current situation is to try to convince Big Bad Toy Store and its ilk to sign up for Project Wonderful. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:33, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:IIRC, above-the-article is what we wanted Wikia to switch ''back'' to. I have no objection. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. How does Ant handle TFU.info's advertising? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

:Doesn't bother me... but can we either put it ''under'' the personal bar, or somehow make it so the personal bar would wrap? Otherwise, I'm staring at the top of my screen and realizing that I'd have an annoying horizontal scroll bar afterwards whenever I'm logged in.
:I have to admit I'm kind of befuddled that we're apparently doing so much more traffic after the move than we were before, to the point of having all those initial problems because we weren't expecting it. Did the new server somehow improve our traffic, it is sheer coincidence that traffic increased for other reasons, or was it more like the old server wasn't keeping track of bandwidth or anything, so we had no idea how we were actually doing? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:38, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Hosting with Bookworm was cheap. I mean, he was doing it at-cost. Or would have, if he ever invoiced us. Now that we've moved on, we're purchasing hosting from people who actually want to make money off us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:41, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, the money's part of it, but I was also thinking about how most of our initial operational troubles seemed to stem from having more traffic to deal with than we realized we were going to have, to the point of even having to run a caching setup I'm guessing we weren't running on the old server. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:45, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The way Bookworm had his servers set up, it was difficult for him to separate out what was our traffic versus what was other traffic on the same server. He gave us an estimate which turned out to be wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Aah, OK. Wasn't sure if it was something we needed to worry about or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:29, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I was kinda expecting this :( I'm cool with more banners, and I think you should beg us for money now and then. We may be able to help when we can. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:15, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Caching is what most mediawiki installations '''do.''' We happened to start off on the most resource-intensive wiki software imaginable, and any stats from Bookworm were not only inaccurate based on whatever he was doing in the logs, but also because back then, ''the wiki was constantly crashing.'' You get zero hits per hour when it's down, and no stats in the world would help clear ''that'' up. I'm still tweaking the hit stats, and it'll be at least a week before I can start extrapolating growth numbers, but suffice it to say, we're going to go over our current bandwidth limit before the month is out, and while we won't get shut down, we ''will'' get billed for overages. Think of it like a normal cellphone plan instead of a pre-paid one. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:47, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, that's mainly what I thought Walky meant. Nestled between the personal bar and the article tabs seems like fertile ground for a banner ad.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:39, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've got the ad code ready to go, whenever we can edit the CSS or whatever to make room. Here is our awesome new placeholder "please bid here" graphic: [https://www.projectwonderful.com/imagewrapper.php?img=img/uploads/pics/20719-1244569575.jpg&rand=439981] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Looks good so far. Potentially odd question: are these particular dimensions popular with Project Wonderful?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::The Leaderboard (700ishx90) and the Big Box (300x250) are the most popular sizes, but those would really ugly up our page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And now it has its first client! That was fast.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Ahhh, Dreamland Chronicles is awesome. I spent a week a few months back reading through their archives after following an ad on our sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One interesting thing looking at the Project Wonderful stats is that our ad hits are ''stabilizing'' now, and they're stabilizing fairly high relative to where they were when the site was still spotty. That's got to look good for advertisers, and if the site holds up to the abuse that the film debut is going to subject it to that's only beneficial to us in the end.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Ptbar-notmeanttobehere.png|thumb|This = bad]]
Uh, I'm using Monobook, and as a result of this, the watchlist/preferences/etc bar has somehow ended up at the ''bottom'' of the page, just above the About Transformers Wiki/Powered by MediaWiki/etc... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got that on a couple of pages, too, and alt+F5ing didn't work. How I fixed it was I signed out and viewed those same pages as an anon. The userbar went back to where it should be, and it stayed there when I logged in again. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Tried that, didn't work.
::In fact, it's worse than I thought, because I didn't notice at first that the page/discussion/edit tabs have gone wandering too, and are floating around the place (the "discussion" and "edit" tabs are currently in the middle of this edit box, and I can't see the others anywhere). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::'''THE PROBLEM IS IN common.css'''.
:::The following CSS borks monobook. This is why you should use the specific stylesheets for each skin, NOT the common file:
<pre>
#p-personal {
position: relative;
}

#p-personal .pBody {
float: right;
}

#p-cactions {
position: relative;
}

#content {
margin-top: 16px !important;
position: relative;
}</pre>
:::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

The new ad space at the top of the page, which was fine yesterday, is now looking screwy in Firefox, with the ad behind the top of the Autobot symbol in the logo and the tabs at the top of the bar. Like so: [[Image:Top-ad-screwy.jpg|thumb]] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:43, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works fine for me in 3.0.10 and 3.5b99, both after clearing cache.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I made some CSS modifications in response to SanityOrMadness's issue, which may cache improperly. Try a hard refresh/clearing your cache. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:51, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, clearing my cache fixed it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

==Consolidate front page?==
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009.jpg|thumb]]
Man, that front banner is huge! Can it be smaller? And when we make it smaller, can we stack up the top-most two boxes next to it like so? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
: The cropped image shown, of course, is just a placeholder. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks about as clunky as Wikia's frontpage, IMO.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:05, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, it's not fine-tuned or anything. Thing is, either that banner's going to be cut down or removed entirely. It's huge, it's bandwidth-wasting, and it pushes all our real content down off the page. What's your choice? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm probably knee-jerking based on the placement of the boxes. I guess it could be made to work if it's finessed a bit. It's not like we're running a ginormous ad there like Wikia was suggesting.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:31, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I dunno, personally I like this new idea. It reminds me of how our franchise navs look: Logo on the left, linkage on the right. Plus, yeah, unlike Wikia, our content on the right of the logo will actually be... content.
:::::As for logo ideas, why don't we make a few different options where it's the TFWiki.net logo over a pic of a single character? We could have one for Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, etc. using the <OPTION> thingy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::As long as the site-name logo thing itself is HUGE. I really want to make sure the URL is shoved in your face. Branding continues to be important as we war against Wikia for Google prominence. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If branding's important, why not change the actual on-every-page logo to use the actual TFWiki.net logo? And put TFWiki.net in the page <title>? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:01, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Alternately, each one could be a group shot from a different franchise, with the font altered to match. Play up how many different continuities there are, eh?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009b.jpg|thumb]]
::::::::This image to the right is what I'm now thinking. And it should probably have movie characters predominantly, at least for the next few months. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm inclined to agree with sticking with the movie characters now, considering it's almost two weeks till the US premiere/release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:19, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

That's pretty darn good. Brings a lot more info above the fold, and the layout's pretty clean. The white background is good too, so any other images in the rotation should follow that example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:21, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:How do we make it done? The table markup on the frontpage is foreign to me. I'll upload the new image itself... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Since Derik doesn't seem to be about yet, I'll have a go with it. Hmm. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, we're really going to have to do something like your first example above, with the Continuity/Category tables underneath each other instead of side-by-side, because trying to fit the logo and the two tables all side-by-side looks hideously awful on a 1024px-wide screen. I tried just simply having the smaller logo, the text notices under it, and the two tables on the right, but it looked kind of... eh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Mrr. OK, I made ''an'' attempt at tweaking, although I think it's going to need some external CSS tweaks at least, if only to center the Continuities table. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looks okay, but the jarring thing about it is that the red and blue boxes aren't the same width, though they share a column.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's something Derik needs to tweak in the Featured box template and/or external CSS... I can't do it just by editing the page itself.
::::::Also, yea or nay on the link buttons? It just seemed a little more "Click me!" than the paragraph o' links. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I dig 'em. Good design decision, IMO. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Quite aside from anything else... what's the point in liking to tfwiki.info with an image link. It ''just about'' made sense as a text link, but is only going to confuse people who click on the Autobot symbol and end up back where they started. We need to cut down on main page-to-main page links, '''not''' obfuscate where they link to. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Visual consistency. (And the mouseover text indicated it was an "alternate URL".) But, I tried tweaking it again. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's fixed! Huzzah!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:46, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I realized I was just approaching it the wrong way. Eheh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

: I'm a little ambivalent towards the "new" logo, just because I think it's a little bland, although I'm sure it's a work in progress. I am all for putting "TFWIKI.net" in the header and all over the fucking place as a branding effort, though. On a slightly related note, I'd consider flipping the "current series" in said box, so ROTF is closer to the center of the page and Animated is on the outside - if we're really trying to bring in ROTF traffic, having that logo front and center is probably a pretty smart idea. I also like the idea of a rotating logo box - maybe we even jigger it so that it links directly to the article for whoever's in it - like the Go! Boxes, but focused entirely on core characters (More Fallen, Movie Optimus, etc., less Irwin Spoon and Dinobots Strike Back). Stick with primary Movie-verse guys for now, and then in a month or so when the hype dies down, we can start to shuffle in some sufficiently advanced and significant articles (making sure that the characters are both important to the fiction and that their articles are nearly, if not entirely complete). [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:17, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds like a good idea. I'm down with that. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Boxswap.jpg|right|350px]]
I has new idea for what module ought to be above the fold, and more ROTF promotiony stuff. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sure, I'd go for it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Considering how crowded and text-heavy the front page is, I think the best way to draw attention to the banner is to surround it in as much empty space as possible, [[User:Magnus Maximus/Temp|something like this]], especially as the new banner's white background assimilates the page's whitespace so easily. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:10, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure how that's really different than it is now, other than putting the site notice at the top... which I kind of hate doing, because that pushes all of the content stuff down. The site notice is temporary anyway.
:I was thinking we ought to make the movie stuff more prominent, rather than the continuity/category modules. I was also thinking of placing the banner, site notice, and external website links in one cell instead of two like it is now, which further creates whitespace... I just didn't think of that until after I made the layout change proposal pic.
:I do agree/think maybe we could stand to lose a few modules, though... maybe ditch the Categories module entirely, and consolidate the Holy Grails and Editing Tips somehow. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:32, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh yeah, you're running a 1024 desktop, aren't you? I changed my res to 1024, and you're right, it really doesn't look much different. But [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3349/tfwikitemp1280.jpg this] is how it looks in 1280, and even that little bit of extra space makes a huge difference compared with how it is [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4606/tfwikinow1280.jpg now] (in my opinion).
::I agree about the notice, but I couldn't think where else to put it. Putting it under the banner (thus between the blue and grey boxes) made it seem wedged-in and out of place. Lesser of two evils, you dig?
::I also agree about making the movie stuff more prominent, but the red and blue boxes are narrower, so they take up less of the horizontal space. I did think that maybe we could change the featured series box so that ROTF is ''on top'' of Animated instead of beside it, and shift that up next to the banner somewhat like it is on my temp page now. That also adapts to 1024 better, I think.
::And yeah, losing some of the boxes would not be the worst thing in the world. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ehh... my problem with that idea is that, one of the reasons we redesigned the Main Page to begin with is because our greeting was so big that it was pushing useful content down below the fold. This sort of recreates that exact same problem.
:::But, I tried tweaking my Main Page design here: [[User:Jeysie/Main Page]] to give more whitespace. I figure that once the movie's been out for a while and we don't need to pimp it as much, we can replace the Featured Characters box with the Continuities box. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:50, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::I was looking at the front page right now and thinking about some things - I'm glad to see most of them are in line with what's already considered. :)
::That said, I suggest taking TFA out of the featured series box, even if only temporarily, and using the [[:Image:Revenge fallen logo.jpg|logo from the franchise page]]. I feel it's more recognisable as the ROTF logo than the more colourful one we have there, plus we can make it a bit bigger.
::I also wonder if we should have "Transformers Wiki" written on there somewhere other than the site logo in the sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

:::: "TFWIKI.net - THE Transformers Wiki"? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:49, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I made up a [[:Image:Wikilogo big.psd|PSD template]] of just such a logo this morning. It's layered, so the transparent overlay of the Autobot leaders is optional.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:18, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I definitely prefer the font of the current TFWIKI.NET logo to that one.
::::::Whatever we ultimately do though, surely we should use the same logo EVERYWHERE, including for the top-left logo, ja? (There's also the recurring thought that we have a G1 Autobot sigil for the top-left logo, but a '''G2''' Autobot sigil for the favicon. I understand that the G2 favicon is unique, which was the main reason we went for it, but if we're thinking about branding...) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Logo===
[[Image:TFwikilogomock.png|right]]
If we want to be movie-centric AND use the TFWiki.net logo extensively for branding reasons, shouldn't we change the Animated-based logo to something more like this? (NB: Quick mock to make a point, '''not''' intended to be actually used, and may clash with the Teletraan on the Monacobook skin). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think we do need to keep some visual distinctiveness. If we go too far into the grey look of the movie we end up with understandable confusion concerning its resemblance to [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monaco-logo.png this].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah. I'm really really fine with keeping our current page design/color scheme. The Wikia site is really gray, and I'd rather not veer to close to that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::[Joke Suggestion] How about we make ours ''on fire''? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:27, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It wouldn't actually be ''that'' hard to do... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Featured-series box===
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series}}
|view=User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
Should we perhaps rebalance the featured-series box to be more like this? (Yes, I know there's a too-high gap between the two lines to the right of the TFA logo. It didn't preview like that, and I can't see why it's doing that.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:That's pretty darn sweet-looking, IMHO. I tried swapping around [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my take on the Main Page]] to include a slightly modified version of it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:16, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::The way it is on the mainpage right now looks really great. Good density of info above-the-fold.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:19, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Or rather on Jeysie's test page, I see now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thing about including [[Main Page/featured-characters]] in it like that (which I just edited to increase the header-size to be visually bigger than the character names, and debold the character names themselves) is that if you separate that from above AND below with a line, you visually make it into a franchise by itself. TFA needs a stronger separator from ROTF than the ROTF stuff does within itself. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:39, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
|view=Main Page/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
How about this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. I added it to my test Main Page with a few minor formatting tweaks. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks excellent to me! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:23, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Are we doing to do this then? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Was wondering that myself. Any more tweaks or suggestions to add, or should we go with my mockup? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:02, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::The mockup looks pretty solid to me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I say go for it! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:46, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Looking again at the featured-characters bit... is Sideswipe really the best choice for that fourth spot on row 1? I already changed Soundwave to Devastator, because the latter has been a LOT more prominent in promos for the movie, but I'm not sure who would be best for a fourth Autobot. Jetfire? Skids & Mudflap? (I'm not even sure if Ironhide is best for the third slot). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:54, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I was trying to think of a balance between which characters were most prominent and which people were likely to be excited about... we could go for Optimus, Bumblebee, Jetfire, and Skids & Mudflap together in the last spot. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:03, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Made that change for now, then. I think "prominence" should probably be the main factor, if we want to grab users. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:14, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

===Featured article===
Now that the featured series box has been sorted... nothing against Kup, but do we have a movie/ROTF article that could possibly take the featured spot at some point between now and the 19th? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[The Fallen]] is at Featured Article status. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::And has been the Featured Article for awhile at A Certain Other Place. I'd rather not mirror them in that respect, personally.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:22, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::In that case... I've got no idea. None of the rest are at FA status, and I can't think of which one would be most relevant to pick on for cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:31, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Surely the three most obvious non-Fallen articles "to pick on for cleanup" are [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)]] and [[Sam Witwicky]], ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:51, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Simmons might be mroe fun. ;)
:::::And Megatron more enlightening, if someone wants to take a whack at his DS-game backstory. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:17, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Looks like Primal Prime is the featured article at that other place, not The Fallen. In fact, it looks like their Fallen article has a cleanup tag, not a featured tag... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:07, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, someone replaced it a couple of days ago after noticing that their "The Fallen" article wasn't up to scratch. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:40, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Any objection to us featuring our superior The Fallen article after all, then? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, on the 24th, the Fallen's page is going up. ESPECIALLY if it's also up at Wikia. Our Fallen page has to supercede theirs, and burying it on the most important week of its life isn't gonna work in our favor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Hell, if we want to upstage 'em over at Wikia, just put [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] as one of the featured characters. I was over there just to see how far the site had gone downhill and it surprised me. They ''don't even have a page for Sideswipe'', it just redirects you to G1 Sideswipe. How sad is that?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 00:13, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:How hard did you look? I wont link it for obvious reasons, but there IS a page for him. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:22, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he got messed up by the fact that the Main Page links to "Sideswipe" without the parenthetical, which does indeed redirect to G1 Sideswipe.
::Having said that, their proper ROTF Sideswipe page is still miserable compared to ours, as is the fact that they got the Main Page linking wrong.
::Not only that... I also noticed that one of their registered users, while editing their Main Page, managed to change their Twitter link to our Twitter in the process. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah I didn't look very hard (alcohol is a helluva thing), the link was what I went for. Obviously someone over there screwed up. You got a problem with it Cattleprod, kiss my shiny, metal ass.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:29, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

===Text Purging===
Next possible round of changes:
I've tweaked [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my setup]] to remove the Categories module (is it really that useful?) and try to reduce/consolidate the Editing Tips/Holy Grails section.

I also think we should do a purge of the Series box and stick to just the "major" series/franchises: Generation 1, Generation 2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, the two movies, and Universe. (Possibly also Classics and/or Beast Machines). We have the comprehensive list linked to for anyone who really wants to look at everything. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:The categories box is useful for two reasons: (1) In and of itself, it's useful. I certainly use it. (2) Without it, your mockup has an empty white space in the right column almost the exact size and shape of the categories box... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:49, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I further note that, [[:Image:Mainpage analytics-06-05-09.png|per Derik's statdump]], it ''gets used''. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:53, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::Well, if you can suggest other ways to clean up our Main Page, I'm all for it. As it is, I agree with Walky that it's getting to be too much of a sea of text, and that struck me as being one of the least useful of the modules. I guess we could consolidate it somehow with the Continuities module as a sort of "Quick Links" box...
::We possibly could also get rid of the Editing Tips and Holy Grail modules, but I kind of hate doing that, as it's nice to try to encourage new editors to look at that sort of information. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::Thing is, if I click on the first link in the Categories box because I want to find a particular character, I get a big confusing list of subcategories and... [[Mickey Mouse]]. If I'm a casual user looking for,say, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], that doesn't help me much, because then I have to hunt through the subcategories for something that looks like it might lead me there. Yes, it's possible that I might notice the search box and use that instead, but that kinda takes away from the point of having that there in the first place.
::Though technically I guess I'm complaining about the organisation of the Characters category rather than the box itself. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

== Jokes? ==

It is sometimes very hard to find relevant information on this wiki among all the juvenile humor. It's a little off-putting for a casual user like myself. I know this wiki is about robots who turn into cars, but, c'mon... Maybe tone it down a bit?[[Special:Contributions/71.107.102.102|71.107.102.102]] 16:56, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

:No. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 17:00, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::If you can point out specific instances where the humor is getting in the way of the information, we'll take those under consideration for adjusting, but on the whole we here tend to appreciate the humor. (Including this editor back when she was a newbie/casual reader.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::As does the overwhelming majority of the readership, it seems. We've gotten praise from all circles for the "do not take it too seriously" approach, even from industry professionals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Tech Upgrades ==

Since we're cracking 1.5 million hits per day, I'm running an alternate webserver for testing over on [http://tfwiki.net:8080/ port 8080.] It's *not* cached, so I expect it to be a smidge slower, but I'm also aggressively tweaking it for better content compression and lower memory usage. It probably doesn't matter *now,* but I suspect that as we close in on the movie, and then as the movie is released and the edits go up, we're going to need to squeeze out every last ounce of performance available to us. That said, can you guys try to break it via logging in/out, editing articles, etc.? It's all on the same database, so any changes made there WILL show up here (and vice versa,) but my major concern is that we don't have those damned login session problems and their ilk going forward. Thanks! --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:05, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:So... an "editing copy" on one server, and a cached copy on another? Because 99% of TFWiki readers aren't editors? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:53, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::Let's not overcomplicate it. Test on the new link, the software driving that will replace the existing (more resource intensive) software '''if it's any good.''' At this point, I want to find out if there are any bugs, and that's that. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got a 405 error when I tried to upload an image on there, but otherwise it seems to be working great. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

=="Wikia wiki" boilerplate==
Between FortMax, Skyjammer and myself, I believe all instances of "Teletraan-I a wikia wiki" etc have been removed from our webpages. Huzzah! Hopefully that will help our Google stats and suchlike, unless I am mis-remembering how those things work... --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 18:31, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:*thumbsup!* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:28, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

== Special:Imagelist ==

Is there any way to strip out the deleted images from [[Special:Imagelist]]? It's kinda useless as things stand. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:11, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Anonymous users ==

Right, the movie goes wide-release in the UK on Friday (I think there may be some previews on Thursday). Thinking about the chaos that may result [and noting that Memory Alpha - much to Wikia's displeasure - disabled ALL editing between the first opening of ''Star Trek'' and its' wide release in the US.]... I think we should give serious consideration to disabling anonymous editing from at least the 18th to the 26th of June.

Thoughts? Objections? Flames? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:I've been advocating that for over a month. It's the same thing we did with Animated: material is blocked for anons until it comes out in America. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::I wasn't talking about blocking specific pages, though (in the way a load of ''Animated'' pages were semi-protected) - just a blanket ban on anonymous editing until ''at least'' the 26th (and I would prefer a week or two beyond that). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:57, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'd much prefer if it wasn't a total block. Block anons on all the movie char character articles, etc. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::Block until a week after the movie's released in the States, namely the chara articles and the film page itself (who knows what poor soul will "unknowingly" put in spoilerific in the synopsis/trivia/notes/what-have-you). It's already difficult enough with the adaptation... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm not just worried about spoilers, but about the casual vandalism associated with a sudden & short-lived spike in visitor numbers, which probably wouldn't be limited to the movie pages. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:10, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::If we do so, should we have a site-wide message like Memory Alpha? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:08, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At least I know we can use [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], I'm not sure whether there is any other similar message. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:37, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::Wow, some serious US-centric bias being spouted. If you don't want spoiled, then don't visit. It's now well established internet etiquette to avoid forums about a week before a film's release. Same should apply here. Or..... wait til the DVD is released before unlocking movie edits, just in case you're stuck in Outer Mongolia at the time of the cinema release. Anonymous editing should be blocked, if only to stop the inevitable trolling and vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 14:07, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Er, no. For one, the 24th is the '''world''' premiere, meaning the vast majority of countries are getting it on that date, not just the US.
:::::::::For two, we need to be able to monitor all edits made to ROTF articles to make sure they're accurate and factual, and we can't do that if most of the wiki's regular editors haven't even seen the movie.
:::::::::So this has less to do with spoilers, and more with the entirely practical aim of being able to keep tabs on all ROTF edits effectively. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:19, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Gosh, thanks, I'll take your advice under consideration.... wait, no, I really won't. If you have a problem with "U.S.-centric bias," you are in the wrong place: this is openly stated as a U.S.-centric wiki. We blocked anonymous edits to the new ''Animated'' episodes that for some damnfool reason were aired first in Dubai, until they were uploaded online for everyone to see. Our U.S.-based editors shouldn't have to stop working on a website that, to a large extent, ''they created'', just out of fear that some collection of I.P. numbers will thoughtlessly spoil the movie for them. Better to just anon-protect all the movie-related pages until after all the major markets have had their premieres. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:12, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

My vote is for blocking all anons from the movie-related pages for at least one week after the world premier, maybe two. I would not be opposed to a site-wide block, however. I really have no interest in cleaning up after a flood of one-timers and trolls and crap. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:23, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hey, I'm all for the lockage. But to stop the wave of trolls that will come. Not because Americans seem to think they have the <insert deity>-given right to subjugate the free speech of others who have the rare opportuity to experience something before the Americans do. That hardly ever happens. America gets everything first; cars, movies, fat, gadgets, first dibs on invasion etc. Thankfully they don't get irony first.[[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 15:38, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Did you even read the post where I pointed out the vast majority of TF fans, both US and non-US, won't be seeing the movie before the 24th, because the vast majority of countries in general aren't getting it until the 24th?
:::Basically, all TF fans not in the UK and Japan aren't going to be getting to see the movie before the 24th. It's not as if we're making editing wait because everyone else is getting the movie early and the US is the only country that isn't.
:::All of our Canadian, Australian, non-UK European, non-Japan Asian, etc. editors are likely equally glad we're waiting. Maybe you should stop and actually think before you go off spouting jerkass strawman accusations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Are you ''intentionally'' aiming for self-parody, or did you actually seriously just try to frame your potentially being locked out of our privately-run, privately-financed web site about giant alien space robots for a few days as a ''freedom of speech'' issue? 'Cause that right there is some serious comedy gold, sir. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:54, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'm afraid there are no Internet Oscars for maudlin self-victimization, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in. Here we only talk about Transformers. You are free to start doing that any old time. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hahaha, did he just equate being able to post to a wiki about cartoon robots for a few days... to the right to free speech? Man, and I thought education was bad over HERE! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:03, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

===One derailment later...===
So, then, back on the subject... I still think we should do it. Mr Anon isn't making me think less of it as an idea. And yes, a [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] would be essential. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:33, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:So, we're all for blocking anons for a week after the 24th? --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:31, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::They're gonna get pissy, but sounds good to me. But what about the editors who can't log in, is that still a problem?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 09:52, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Most likely. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Which editors who can't log in? The problem with IE users not being able to log in was fixed when McFly fixed all the other problems on the site. I haven't heard of any reports of anyone else having the problem... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:32, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's not a case of being technically unable to log in. Its a case of NOT DESIRING to log in because people are at work or at school or where there are shared computers. When I was at school, I certainly didn't want to log in, and a few other people felt the same way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Ah! Of course. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Transformers Comic" ==

Okay, I've got three issues at present with the titling treatment of the Titan Movie comics:
#Ambiguity - if you look at, say, [[Transformers Comic issue 9]], there's ''at least'' three Transformers #9s with no subtitle - [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|Marvel G1 US #9]], [[Man of Iron!|Marvel G1 UK #9]], and [[Transformers Comic issue 9|Titan Movie #9]]; and currently the only one at "Transformers Comic issue 9" is the Titan Movie issue
#DO we go by issue, or by story? - We're all over the shop on this:
#*The Marvel US issues are all at the story titles, but these pages incorporate any "Transformers Universe" bio material
#*The Marvel UK issues almost all have multiple stories or parts of stories, and I think there may even be some issues with multiple UK-originated/non-reprint stories, and each story is at its' own page, ''which incorporates multiple issues'' (e.g., [[Time Wars]]), leaving aside editorial and other non-story material.
#*The Marvel G2 issues almost all have backups, sometimes nominal, sometimes not, and they're all at the title of the lead/non-"Tales of Earth" story (e.g. [[New Dawn]]).
#*The ''first'' Panini Armada issue is at the story title ([[First Encounter!]]), while the ''rest'' are at "Panini Armada issue X" (e.g., [[Panini Armada issue 2]]).
#*The IDW issues are at the issue title even where the issue is split into multiple, titled. stories (e.g. [[The Arrival issue 4]])
#The actual title of the Titan Movie issues - Titan Movie v1 #22-25 are actually titled ''Transformers: Universe'' #22-25 (mostly in reflection of it absorbing the cancelled ''Animated'' comic), but are still at "Transformers Comic issue XX"; while v2, titled ''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' #XX, is at the truly bizarre "Transformers Comic 2.XX". Really, just because the letters page said 2.x once, rather than "Revenge of the Fallen (Titan) issue X", which is what's on the cover?
What are we doing with this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:As I've said before, I do NOT favor consistency here. A one-size-fits-all approach will inevitably fail to encompass the widely variable situations with various comic series.
:The Marvel US book are under the story titles because, for all intents and purposes, the story and the issue are one and the same. Likewise for most of Dreamwave's G1 run. Sure, we could move 'em all to "The Transformers issue 2 (Marvel US)", but what do we ''gain''? How is this any better than "Power Play!"? What is the benefit? Mere consistency is insufficient reason.
:This is much, much less true with the UK comic, where stories were broken into two and even three parts, and multiple stories shared page space in the same issue. Now, I've heard rumblings to the effect that each UK issue should have its own page, and there's merit to that, insofar as each issue's contents are a mixed bag - minicomics, letters pages, and pieces and parts of various stories. It might make sense to have a page for each issue, basically a list of its contents, with ''See main article'' links to the entire story -- so, say, UK #88, #89, #90, or whatever, all link to a single page for "Target: 2006".
:With G2, it absolutely makes complete sense to combine the two stories. The "backup" strips are such in name only; they are absolutely integral to the main strip, and neither can be read without the other. Separating "Tales of Earth" bits into their own pages is only going to confuse things and make them ''less informative''. Furthermore, the main strip clearly ''is'' the MAIN strip. It makes sense to cover the whole story under that strip's title. Our current system for G2 acknowledges this, while still distinguishing between the contents of each section. The alternative is to move each page to "Generation 2 issue 2" or whatever... and I don't see what we gain by doing this.
:The Titan comics should be moved to whatever the cover and indicia call them. If they're just ''Transformers'' or something equally generic, well, that's what parenthetical disambigs are for. Likewise for the ROTF reboot. A simple (Titan) should cover the bases well enough, yes?
:A recent trend has been issues with 2 discreet stories, such as the ''Animated'' books you mention. I've long been in favor of having a single page for the ''issue'' for such books, with ''See main article'' links to the individual stories within them - so "Animated: The Arrival issue 2" would be a list of stuff, with two prominent links within to pages about the two stories it contains. Still, I can understand if people see that as unnecessarily messy -- so long as they can agree that, since the stories are pretty much co-equal, it would make no sense at all to give one or the other naming precedence.
:So, that's my take. Case-by-case basis FTW, baby. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:43, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:Also, to address item #1 specifically... if we do stick with "Transformers" as the title, there should be a disambig note for Transformers at the top. Unless "Comic" is in the title, it shouldn't be in there. I'm thinking the article names should be "Transformers issue 1 (Titan)", etc., with the parenthetical at the end of the page title, rather than the middle.
:These books generally have stories from different continuities, don't they? That's a point in favor of separating the story content out from the containing issue. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== Non-movie (Movie) characters vs. movie (ROTF) characters with the same name ==

Anyone else think we should, at the very least, have {{tl|disambig2}}s on pages like [[Jetfire (Movie)]] and [[Mudflap (Movie)]] to the ROTF characters of the same name? Yes, I realise users could go via the disambig page, but I see it as making things simpler & easier for newbies, and in that scenario one click is always better than two. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think I'd cautiously support adding a <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki> for characters of the same name within the same continuity if there seems like a good chance for confusion. I'd oppose imposing it as an across-the-board standard though. (You're nto suggesting that though.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I oppose it on the principle that multiple disambig templates on a page is ugly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:47, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ugly, and you can get to where you need to go through the disambig. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Here's the thing though - '''is it intiutive''' for a complete newbie, who came in via ROTF, to see "Optimus Prime (Movie)", "Bumblebee (Movie)" and "Megatron (Movie)" '''and not immediately conclude''' that the Jetfire article will be at "Jetfire (Movie)", rather than some incredibly obscure card-puzzle that even we don't have a final picture for?
:::::Hell, even take it a step up from "complete newbie" to someone who sat through Beast Wars/Machines or Armada/Energon/Cybertron, where characters changed bodies between series so that they had very little resemblance to their prior selves (in the UT's case, without any explanation). Those guys might assume that "Mudflap (Movie)" *is* Skids' twin even if he bears no resemblance to him. And it was a guy making that exact mistake and getting reverted by you last night that caused me to post this.
:::::I really think a BIG, prominent link DIRECTLY from the obscure (Movie) character to the prominent (ROTF) character is required. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:26, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::As long as there's a link to the same-universe namesake in the intro, I see no need for an additional disambig template. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:21, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::And on that note, I added just such a line for [[Mudflap (Movie)]]. It seemed especially appropriate for him, since he's an Autobot wannabe who precedes an actual Autobot of the same name. That having been said, though, I don't dislike the [[:Template:disambigrotf]] template you cooked up, Sanity. It's a little unwieldy, but it's probably as succinct as such a thing could ever be. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:46, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I did the same for Jolt, who had the wal-mart version for the first movie and it was deleted... I was told "that's what disambig is for." [[User:Cliffjumper prime|Cliffjumper prime]] 01:12, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, I'm generally in favor of intro-links because they allow for a bit more elaboration. If it's just a disambig, then we're presenting the characters as though they are definitively separate individuals with no connection to each other, even though in most cases there's just too little evidence to say one way or t'other. The absence of information is, itself, noteworthy. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:57, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I favour user-friendliness over concerns about how ugly or pretty it makes things look. I think those of you arguing about how ugly it makes things look and disambig3 doing the job are working under the assumption readers are fairly knowledgeable about how this wiki operates. I find that attitude to be rather unhelpful and presumptive. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Indeed. I still have a problem with not redirecting [[Optimus Prime (Energon)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Armada)]], [[Optimus Primal (BW)]]->[[Optimus Primal]], [[Optimus Prime (ROTF)]]->[[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], etc. It seems almost ''wilfully'' inconsistent to not have an equivalent parenthetical available for every character in a series to aid in newbies' browsing & editing. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:01, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't like the expanded ROTF disambig box. I like how Charles RB did it on the [[Sideswipe (Movie)]] page. A little tack-on to the continuity note. Although in Sideswipe's case I think the pages could actually be merged. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:11, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::As opposed to assuming that every reader is retarded and can't figure out [[Jetfire (Movie)]] is not the same character as [[Jetfire (ROTF)]]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Africa

2009-06-19T04:56:24Z

Fleb:

'''Africa''' is one of [[Earth]]'s largest continents, second only to Asia.

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
The Decepticons set up a [[Solar Needle]] somewhere in the center of Africa. En route to stop this plot, the Autobots had to shoot a lot of vegetation out of the way. {{storylink|Changing Gears}}

The nation of [[Carbombya]] was located on the northern Mediterranean coast of Africa. {{storylink|Thief in the Night}}

===Beast Wars===
The [[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]] and [[Darksyde]] appeared to have crash-landed somewhere in Africa at the beginning of the Beast Wars. The [[Maximal|Maximals']] alternate forms are all native the continent; [[Cheetor (BW)|cheetahs]], [[Rhinox (BW)|rhinos]], [[Rattrap|rats]] are all found there, and [[Optimus Primal|gorillas]] are exclusive to Africa. Likewise, the [[human|human race]] emerged from Africa, making it the likely candidate for the location of the valley which the Predacons attacked in their first attempt to change history. {{storylink|Code of Hero}}

However, since both the Maximals and [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] were capable of relatively quick long-distance travel {{storylink|Fallen Comrades}} {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}}, it is not entirely clear where all events of the Beast Wars took place.

===Movie continuity===
After a sighting of [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] in Zambia, [[NEST]] sent a team of Autobots to investigate. Battles with the Decepticons ensued. {{storylink|The Veiled Threat}}
====''Alliance'' comic====
{{stub}}

[[Category:Earth]]
[[Category:Beast Wars locations]]

Africa

2009-06-19T04:54:28Z

Fleb: /* Fiction */ that Movie comic

'''Africa''' is one of [[Earth]]'s largest continents, second only to Asia.

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
The Decepticons set up a [[Solar Needle]] somewhere in the center of Africa. En route to stop this plot, the Autobots had to shoot a lot of vegetation out of the way. {{storylink|Changing Gears}}

The nation of [[Carbombya]] was located on the northern Mediterranean coast of Africa. {{storylink|Thief in the Night}}

===Beast Wars===
The [[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]] and [[Darksyde]] appeared to have crash-landed somewhere in Africa at the beginning of the Beast Wars. The [[Maximal|Maximals']] alternate forms are all native the continent; [[Cheetor (BW)|cheetahs]], [[Rhinox (BW)|rhinos]], [[Rattrap|rats]] are all found there, and [[Optimus Primal|gorillas]] are exclusive to Africa. Likewise, the [[human|human race]] emerged from Africa, making it the likely candidate for the location of the valley which the Predacons attacked in their first attempt to change history. {{storylink|Code of Hero}}

However, since both the Maximals and [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] were capable of relatively quick long-distance travel {{storylink|Fallen Comrades}} {{storylink|The Agenda (Part III)}}, it is not entirely clear where all events of the Beast Wars took place.

===Movie continuity===
After a sighting of [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] in Zambia, [[NEST]] sent a team of Autobots to investigate. Battles with the Decepticons ensued. {{storylink|The Veiled Threat}}

==Movie continuity==
===''Alliance'' comic===
{{stub}}

[[Category:Earth]]
[[Category:Beast Wars locations]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-06-19T04:43:11Z

Fleb: /* Derik causes problems */ GFDL already has those problems

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

'''The server move:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive33|Archive 33]]
}}

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:That's a note, not a quote. The site unfortunately has plenty of problems in IE6, mostly caused by Microsoft's crappy rendering engine. A few of them linger in IE7 too... We really need to come up with a replacement for the messageboxes which doesn't lose the right-hand edge for one thing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description) |(issue number) |(issue title) |(artist list) |(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |letters= |help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |script= |pencils= |inks= |colours= |letters= |help= |year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::With no reported problems from the ppl running Kired Tools, this plugin has been moved to the common file, and is now loaded for all Wiki users.
:::So if anything unexpected breaks tonight please report it here, since the preview script will be the likely suspect. (But we don't expect it to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:53, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's now been said '''thrice''' in this thread that the UK/Eire date is the 19th. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]]
:::::::::::Beg your pardon, then. It was late, and I wasn't paying close enough attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::Damn Americans think they're the centre of the Universe. If I was President of the US, I'd invade the UK and Ireland to protect American Transfan interests. 14:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I read the novel and have this to say: As much detail as is in it, there's no doubt its different. First of all: there's alot more detail so that means some of the slower parts are probably shorter in the movie (novels often do that anyways so no problems there) and also: in one chapter it leads up to fight and then on the very next chapter all of a sudden Devestator appears and is fighting already as if he's been there the whole time (meaning they skipped a chunk of that fight)So as is obvious, there will be differences.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<<not that it matters

==Forgive my attitude but==
what the flying f***! What happened to my account. I made one, I even remember what it looked like. Where is it and why can't I login and my username no longer exsists! What..the..hell. I've not signed in for a long time but I still go here regularly and everything, don't tell me you autodeleted my account! I mean, I’ve been here when it was at Wikia, I moved with you guys here and even made a new account here! Hell, my old accounts on Wikia all got deleted, so please don’t tell me you guys stooped to their level and deleted my account as well! I’ve done nothing wrong, aside from giving the appearance of being inactive because I’ve not logged in within awhile, but so what? What right does that give you to delete my account? (and if by some means it does give you the right to do so, please provide a link proving that)--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<< not that it matters
:[[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Thank you. I'll just make a new account then.-sighs- Forgive if I bothered any of you with what I just said.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
::Don't worry, incoherent rage is the '''proper''' response to the Bookworm crash... you're just slowpoking. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Main page ==

[[Image:Mainpage_analytics-06-05-09.png|thumb]]
I'll just leave this here...

(I'll check in after work and see if anyone has thoughts, I sure do.)

Number are per-individual-link BTW-- so two separate links to the same location have their clickthroughs tallied separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
: In which we learn nobody clicks anything! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::The numbers on the page ''should'' add up to 100%. It's just that a few links get vastly more traffic than the others so they show up as 0%. That might represent a few hundred clicks-- the Main Page ''is'' our most frequented page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:12, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::And people are obviously clicking on [[Kup (G1)]] as the page has gained a thousand hits and jumped 30 places in the Popular Pages list in the last week or so. Any idea what time frame the data covers? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::That was pretty much my thought, too. XD Although it is kind of interesting that some of the categories/continuities/series sections seem more popular than others... it's just hard to tell which ones, since the number pop-ups are in weird spots.
::I also notice that the "images" link in the Editing Tips is popular... and that apparently the fake disambiguation links get some clicks. XD Speaking of which, we really should write up some more of those to replace the rotating ones that got lost in the crash... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:26, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I may have sternly directed people to our Images policy page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:49, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's the most common thing people get wrong, so it's also our most thorough policy document.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::About 8% of clicks on the main page are to our "anyone can edit" but up top-- which just takes people to anchors within the page. (The Editing tips section and the Holy Grails section, which do not themselves then collect a lot of clicks.)
:::::This leads me to think that people who click on these things do ''not'' get what they want/are expecting. We should look at changing those links somehow.
:::::Another 8 % of clicks on the main page are on the "home" logo in the upper left (which takes you... back to the main page) and the "main page" link in the nav toolbar.
:::::If there's agreement, I'd like to set it so that the "Main Page" link in the navigation on the left is grayed out when you're on the main page, so it's clearer that "you're here." (The link would still be usable, it'd just have this visual indicator.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::We could simply de-link the "anyone can edit" links... they just seemed like a good way to get people to actually read our policies and what we need. Or maybe we could link that text directly to [[Help:Contents]] and get rid of the "Editing Tips" box altogether?
::::::I agree with the "Main Page" link being disabled when you're actually on the Main Page. It's pretty easy to do via CSS, and you can also change the cursor to be a regular arrow in CSS to further de-emphasize the links and say, "Hey, dude, you're already ''at'' the Main Page."
::::::Although I had actually thought that 8% of clicks was to the Recent Changes page, which would have made more sense to me. The oddness of where the stat boxes are in relation to the actual page links does make it hard to analyze. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::AS FAR AS I CAN TELL (which in a few cases - the continuities box especially - is less than 100%), these are all the numbers >1.0%:
:::::::*Logo (goes to Main Page): 4.0%
:::::::*"Navigation" sidebar:
:::::::**Main Page link in sidebar: 4.0%
:::::::**Recent changes: 5.3%
:::::::*Fake disambig:
:::::::**"anyone can edit" (goes to "editing-tips" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::**"add to" (goes to "holy-grails" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::*Categories:
:::::::**Characters: 1.8%
:::::::*Continuities:
:::::::**Live-action film: 1.4%
:::::::**Full Series Info: 4.0%
:::::::*Also, the cumulative links to the ROTF page appear to be >1%, even if no individual link is.
:::::::Thoughts on that... firstly, the links TO the main page ON the main page need to be nerfed. Not greyed out, killed. The logo can be just a logo, and the main page link can be replaced or removed. Secondly, there is no way in hell we should delink the stuff in the fake disambig, but redirecting to other places may be a better idea - take the "editing tips" box and turn it into a full page, linked from there (And from the ET box). Not quite so sure on "add to" - a list of stubs that we want filled out, perhaps? The "Holy Grails" box is too specific for 99.9% of potential editors, I expect. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:32, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Useful Extensions ==

Now that we have a working server again and more control over the techie side of things, I wonder if we should start up a list of extensions to install that might be useful.

My own picks:

*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog Extension:Newuserlog] to keep track of new users so we can give them a [[User:Jeysie/NewUser|friendly greeting]]. As opposed to our current status of new people not usually getting much of a "greeting" unless they screw up. :>
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MultiBoilerplate Extension:MultiBoilerplate] to provide a drop-down menu of skeleton codes for new pages. I find this ''incredibly'' useful on my own wiki for being able to easily keep different types of pages all laid out the same, by inserting full page structures into new pages so you can then just fill in the information. For example, [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Template:D20RulesPlayercharacterpage here's one structure page] I use to give an idea of the sort of code you can inset.

:Mine:
:*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Title_Blacklist Extension:Title Blacklist] blocks creation of pages depending on a regular expression.

:I will note that Newuserlog is built into MediaWiki 1.14.0, but we haven't discussed upgrading the software yet... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:25, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

::Honestly, those "friendly greetings" drive me spare. I'd really rather not have them.
::Suggestions:
::*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself] (prevents users or anons editing User:* pages other than their own.) [Beta] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:47, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be fine with blocking anons-- but I ''have'' been known to reach out and tweak someone's user page from time to time.
:::(Not that we've really had a problem with either.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::Why do they drive you spare? Giving new users a heads-up regards our policies ''before'' we have to slap a nastygram user notice on their page seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They drive me spare getting them while doing IP-edits. And chances are you'll get them again, and again, and again... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh! No, no, no. I didn't mean doing them automatically on all new users, I was thinking, like, putting the greeting ''manually'' only for new ''registered'' users. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:09, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

==Rise of the Chevy Autobots==
Allright, I finally got around to putting this up. This is everything I have saved from the "Rise of the Chevy Autobots" online game - flash files, HTML, etc. It comes to nearly 60mb.

[http://www.obscuretf.com/ChevyAutobotGame.zip Chevy Autobots]

Unfortunately, I am most likely missing the last week or two of the story, but I figure it's better than nothing. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 14:18, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:Monzo- I luvers you...
:And AFIK the defeat of Mainframe himself never got a news update-- the epilogue was provided by the game itself. So you ''should'' have the most up to date version.
:Uh, I suppose there might have been a "he's weakening, keep at it" update, but that's pretty content-null. It'd be nice to know the date Mainframe went down... but again, it looks like you've got 99% of everything preserved here. :)~
:And now we can properly cite the Chevy Autobots being allspark mutations! (Or at least a result of Chevy's experimentation with Energon as an alternative fuel source.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::{{quote|'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
::::::::::{{quote|Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

Signed, 
Liz Calkins}}
::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::But like Jeysie said, GFDL ''already'' has those problems, it's a Share-Alike-style license and has all the weird ambiguities that CC-By-SA has for a fandom wiki, so I'm not sure how switching advances the Brave Copyright Cause and exposes TFWiki to legal troubles anymore than the license we're already stuck with? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:43, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Asking for permission to post links==

I'm the current Bureaucrat at [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com Ghostbusters Wiki], and there was interest in placing links to articles on this wiki to Ghostbusters wiki articles, and likewise placing links on Ghostbusters wiki to articles relating to content which has been brought up. I don't know a great deal of your wikis past dealings, other than wikia apparently kept your old wiki's content when you moved. Anyways, the wiki would rather reference to your present wiki than the one currently at wikia. We are hoping you wouldn't mind the links to our characters on pages related to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Race_with_the_Devil Race with the Devil] article. [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/User:Devilmanozzy Devilmanozzy] 02:10, June 8, 2009 (EDT)

:Can you give a few examples of articles on your wiki which would benefit from having links to this site? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC it's whatshername's assistants-- the ones from the Earthforce story (Running with the Devil?) that Wildman based on the RGB models.
::(I personally have no problem with the links. Though I think this guy added 'em once, misformatted, and they got reverted.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That wasn't Nozzy but Liberal Noob, while not logged in. I told the original guy to take a step back and mind their P's and Q's before we start crosslinking, especially since it was an anonymous IP at the time. But yeah, he wants to crosslink with Race the Devil and Susan Hoffman.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:43, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Only direct link between the Ghostbusters Cartoon and the G1 Transformers cartoon is [[Frank Welker]] sounded like one of his TF roles when he voiced a ghost from time to time. I a am sorry for my wanton linking and it will not happen again. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 22:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant which pages on the Ghostbusters wiki would benefit from having links on them to our wiki. I'm curious, because I regard myself as reasonably familiar with Ghostbusters, and I can't think offhand of any references to Transformers in it. Perhaps in one of the cartoons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks for the replies on this matter. A good user Liberal Noob had requested that I would more address this, apparently the mod needed to say something and form a partnership in order to have links posted related to one anothers material. To answer the question of what articles would be hyperlinked, I believe he was planning on linking to the animated pages for Peter Venkman, Egon Spengler, and Ray Stantz. Thats what I understand is being requested to being linked to.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 19:42, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::We're not wondering which pages on our wiki would link to your wiki. We were wondering which pages on your wiki would need to link to our wiki. We didn't know there ''were'' any Transformers references in any Ghostbusters media, and thus didn't know you'd need to link to us from your wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Race with the Devil]], [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Starscream's Ghost]], [[Horri-Bull]], and a few others. Links will be on is a article on [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters_Cameos Ghostbusters Cameos]. Note I believe that the section will be better built soon.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 20:21, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Seems like there's a few other connections in terms of voice actors ([[Tara Strong]], [[Frank Welker]], [[Maurice LaMarche]] etc) as well. I think linking between the two sites is a good idea. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah I had noticed that too as I looked around here the last few days. Never knew how much Ghostbusters and Transformers had in common.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 23:40, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::While I'm broadly in favour of this, could you maybe change "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" to "[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's ghost]]" - I understand you want to keep the ghost theme going but the first is a link to an unrelated episode of the cartoon series, rather than the character himself. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 07:02, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::OK Emvee, I fixed the link on the Ghostbusters wiki as you requested. Devilmanozzy, ''[[Star Wars]]'' also has a [[Darth Vader|lot in common]] with ''Transformers''. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 14:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::We know, we got named an official friend of Wookiepedia about a week into the [[Project: Bookworm Crash]]. If we hadn't been scrambling to pick up the pieces, our pages would probably reflect this more. (I assume we'll integrate more when Clone Wars starts up again, since we love to attention-whore ourselves that way.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/dan-akroyd-ghostbusterhero/ Here is] an obscure crossover from [[The Real Effing Deal]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:09, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

== Quick Links? ==

You know, now that I think about it, one thing Wikia actually did do right was having some "Quick Links" on the sidebar. I find myself missing being able to quickly get to the main continuities/series without having to search or click to the Main Page first. (Especially now that there's lots o' ROTF toys to keep tabs on...)

Nothing extensive necessary; just one linkie thingy with a fly-out menu for our six main continuities and the full series list would probably work nicely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think notably M.Sipher *really* hated that because any time a cursor went within a parsec of the menu, it would pop out in an annoying manner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::Wasn't just Sipher - it drove me nuts too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, in that case, maybe just an extra sidemenu then, kind of like the "Campaign Navigation" box on [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Main_Page this sidebar]? I just figured that a fly-out menu would save space, but an extra link sidebar would work for me too.
:::But I'd definitely like something. As Abates points out below, we don't currently have any sidebar links for actually ''browsing''. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Could we make so that they're fly-out menus, but that they only fly-out if you actually click on the title? That would save room while avoiding things jumping out when you're waving the cursor around. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think having a link on the sidebar for Revenge of the Fallen would be good too. While the Community portal and Recent Changes links are great for us Editors, they're not likely to be used much by casual visitors. We should be using the menu to draw attention to major articles. While I'm thinking about it, we could probably change the Main Page link to read "Transformers Wiki"... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I went ahead and popped a link to [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] in the navigation menu? I'm thinking between "Main Page" and "Community portal". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not of the upper brass but given the increasing coverage of ROTF as we come down the wire, it'd make the most sense. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 19:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== We need a new adspace ==

The TFwiki on our new server is doing super mega amounts of bandwidth! (Note I've broken up the OPtimus Prime (G1) page, because, dude, that thing was a monster.) So, uh, I think we need to add a new adspace. One that's *above* the fold, since the ones we have are shoved down in the corner where no one can see them. What advertiser would want to dump loads of money on those? What I'm proposing is a 486x60 banner-shaped ad up above the "article/discussion/edit/history/delete/move/watch" links, nestled in between the Teletraan 1 image and the personal toolbar. (You know, OUTSIDE of the content.) If this is a terrible idea, I will also accept $5 donations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:14, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I've no qualms with that. That was one of the "acceptable" adspaces, if I recall from the old discussions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:18, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Long as they don't dance or talk or sing, that'll work. Are we actively pursuing advertisers these days? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:22, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, "actively pursuing advertisers" is somewhat incompatible with our current ad setup. To put an ad on our site now, that requires signing up with Project Wonderful and bidding. This is good for us because it's mostly automated. If we were to set up a "real" in the traditional sense, we'd need a full-time ad pursuer to fill those spots. The best we can do in our current situation is to try to convince Big Bad Toy Store and its ilk to sign up for Project Wonderful. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:33, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:IIRC, above-the-article is what we wanted Wikia to switch ''back'' to. I have no objection. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. How does Ant handle TFU.info's advertising? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

:Doesn't bother me... but can we either put it ''under'' the personal bar, or somehow make it so the personal bar would wrap? Otherwise, I'm staring at the top of my screen and realizing that I'd have an annoying horizontal scroll bar afterwards whenever I'm logged in.
:I have to admit I'm kind of befuddled that we're apparently doing so much more traffic after the move than we were before, to the point of having all those initial problems because we weren't expecting it. Did the new server somehow improve our traffic, it is sheer coincidence that traffic increased for other reasons, or was it more like the old server wasn't keeping track of bandwidth or anything, so we had no idea how we were actually doing? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:38, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Hosting with Bookworm was cheap. I mean, he was doing it at-cost. Or would have, if he ever invoiced us. Now that we've moved on, we're purchasing hosting from people who actually want to make money off us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:41, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, the money's part of it, but I was also thinking about how most of our initial operational troubles seemed to stem from having more traffic to deal with than we realized we were going to have, to the point of even having to run a caching setup I'm guessing we weren't running on the old server. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:45, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The way Bookworm had his servers set up, it was difficult for him to separate out what was our traffic versus what was other traffic on the same server. He gave us an estimate which turned out to be wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Aah, OK. Wasn't sure if it was something we needed to worry about or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:29, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I was kinda expecting this :( I'm cool with more banners, and I think you should beg us for money now and then. We may be able to help when we can. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:15, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Caching is what most mediawiki installations '''do.''' We happened to start off on the most resource-intensive wiki software imaginable, and any stats from Bookworm were not only inaccurate based on whatever he was doing in the logs, but also because back then, ''the wiki was constantly crashing.'' You get zero hits per hour when it's down, and no stats in the world would help clear ''that'' up. I'm still tweaking the hit stats, and it'll be at least a week before I can start extrapolating growth numbers, but suffice it to say, we're going to go over our current bandwidth limit before the month is out, and while we won't get shut down, we ''will'' get billed for overages. Think of it like a normal cellphone plan instead of a pre-paid one. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:47, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, that's mainly what I thought Walky meant. Nestled between the personal bar and the article tabs seems like fertile ground for a banner ad.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:39, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've got the ad code ready to go, whenever we can edit the CSS or whatever to make room. Here is our awesome new placeholder "please bid here" graphic: [https://www.projectwonderful.com/imagewrapper.php?img=img/uploads/pics/20719-1244569575.jpg&rand=439981] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Looks good so far. Potentially odd question: are these particular dimensions popular with Project Wonderful?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::The Leaderboard (700ishx90) and the Big Box (300x250) are the most popular sizes, but those would really ugly up our page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And now it has its first client! That was fast.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Ahhh, Dreamland Chronicles is awesome. I spent a week a few months back reading through their archives after following an ad on our sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One interesting thing looking at the Project Wonderful stats is that our ad hits are ''stabilizing'' now, and they're stabilizing fairly high relative to where they were when the site was still spotty. That's got to look good for advertisers, and if the site holds up to the abuse that the film debut is going to subject it to that's only beneficial to us in the end.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Ptbar-notmeanttobehere.png|thumb|This = bad]]
Uh, I'm using Monobook, and as a result of this, the watchlist/preferences/etc bar has somehow ended up at the ''bottom'' of the page, just above the About Transformers Wiki/Powered by MediaWiki/etc... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got that on a couple of pages, too, and alt+F5ing didn't work. How I fixed it was I signed out and viewed those same pages as an anon. The userbar went back to where it should be, and it stayed there when I logged in again. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Tried that, didn't work.
::In fact, it's worse than I thought, because I didn't notice at first that the page/discussion/edit tabs have gone wandering too, and are floating around the place (the "discussion" and "edit" tabs are currently in the middle of this edit box, and I can't see the others anywhere). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::'''THE PROBLEM IS IN common.css'''.
:::The following CSS borks monobook. This is why you should use the specific stylesheets for each skin, NOT the common file:
<pre>
#p-personal {
position: relative;
}

#p-personal .pBody {
float: right;
}

#p-cactions {
position: relative;
}

#content {
margin-top: 16px !important;
position: relative;
}</pre>
:::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

The new ad space at the top of the page, which was fine yesterday, is now looking screwy in Firefox, with the ad behind the top of the Autobot symbol in the logo and the tabs at the top of the bar. Like so: [[Image:Top-ad-screwy.jpg|thumb]] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:43, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works fine for me in 3.0.10 and 3.5b99, both after clearing cache.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I made some CSS modifications in response to SanityOrMadness's issue, which may cache improperly. Try a hard refresh/clearing your cache. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:51, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, clearing my cache fixed it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

==Consolidate front page?==
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009.jpg|thumb]]
Man, that front banner is huge! Can it be smaller? And when we make it smaller, can we stack up the top-most two boxes next to it like so? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
: The cropped image shown, of course, is just a placeholder. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks about as clunky as Wikia's frontpage, IMO.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:05, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, it's not fine-tuned or anything. Thing is, either that banner's going to be cut down or removed entirely. It's huge, it's bandwidth-wasting, and it pushes all our real content down off the page. What's your choice? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm probably knee-jerking based on the placement of the boxes. I guess it could be made to work if it's finessed a bit. It's not like we're running a ginormous ad there like Wikia was suggesting.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:31, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I dunno, personally I like this new idea. It reminds me of how our franchise navs look: Logo on the left, linkage on the right. Plus, yeah, unlike Wikia, our content on the right of the logo will actually be... content.
:::::As for logo ideas, why don't we make a few different options where it's the TFWiki.net logo over a pic of a single character? We could have one for Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, etc. using the <OPTION> thingy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::As long as the site-name logo thing itself is HUGE. I really want to make sure the URL is shoved in your face. Branding continues to be important as we war against Wikia for Google prominence. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If branding's important, why not change the actual on-every-page logo to use the actual TFWiki.net logo? And put TFWiki.net in the page <title>? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:01, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Alternately, each one could be a group shot from a different franchise, with the font altered to match. Play up how many different continuities there are, eh?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009b.jpg|thumb]]
::::::::This image to the right is what I'm now thinking. And it should probably have movie characters predominantly, at least for the next few months. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm inclined to agree with sticking with the movie characters now, considering it's almost two weeks till the US premiere/release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:19, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

That's pretty darn good. Brings a lot more info above the fold, and the layout's pretty clean. The white background is good too, so any other images in the rotation should follow that example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:21, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:How do we make it done? The table markup on the frontpage is foreign to me. I'll upload the new image itself... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Since Derik doesn't seem to be about yet, I'll have a go with it. Hmm. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, we're really going to have to do something like your first example above, with the Continuity/Category tables underneath each other instead of side-by-side, because trying to fit the logo and the two tables all side-by-side looks hideously awful on a 1024px-wide screen. I tried just simply having the smaller logo, the text notices under it, and the two tables on the right, but it looked kind of... eh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Mrr. OK, I made ''an'' attempt at tweaking, although I think it's going to need some external CSS tweaks at least, if only to center the Continuities table. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looks okay, but the jarring thing about it is that the red and blue boxes aren't the same width, though they share a column.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's something Derik needs to tweak in the Featured box template and/or external CSS... I can't do it just by editing the page itself.
::::::Also, yea or nay on the link buttons? It just seemed a little more "Click me!" than the paragraph o' links. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I dig 'em. Good design decision, IMO. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Quite aside from anything else... what's the point in liking to tfwiki.info with an image link. It ''just about'' made sense as a text link, but is only going to confuse people who click on the Autobot symbol and end up back where they started. We need to cut down on main page-to-main page links, '''not''' obfuscate where they link to. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Visual consistency. (And the mouseover text indicated it was an "alternate URL".) But, I tried tweaking it again. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's fixed! Huzzah!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:46, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I realized I was just approaching it the wrong way. Eheh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

: I'm a little ambivalent towards the "new" logo, just because I think it's a little bland, although I'm sure it's a work in progress. I am all for putting "TFWIKI.net" in the header and all over the fucking place as a branding effort, though. On a slightly related note, I'd consider flipping the "current series" in said box, so ROTF is closer to the center of the page and Animated is on the outside - if we're really trying to bring in ROTF traffic, having that logo front and center is probably a pretty smart idea. I also like the idea of a rotating logo box - maybe we even jigger it so that it links directly to the article for whoever's in it - like the Go! Boxes, but focused entirely on core characters (More Fallen, Movie Optimus, etc., less Irwin Spoon and Dinobots Strike Back). Stick with primary Movie-verse guys for now, and then in a month or so when the hype dies down, we can start to shuffle in some sufficiently advanced and significant articles (making sure that the characters are both important to the fiction and that their articles are nearly, if not entirely complete). [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:17, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds like a good idea. I'm down with that. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Boxswap.jpg|right|350px]]
I has new idea for what module ought to be above the fold, and more ROTF promotiony stuff. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sure, I'd go for it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Considering how crowded and text-heavy the front page is, I think the best way to draw attention to the banner is to surround it in as much empty space as possible, [[User:Magnus Maximus/Temp|something like this]], especially as the new banner's white background assimilates the page's whitespace so easily. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:10, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure how that's really different than it is now, other than putting the site notice at the top... which I kind of hate doing, because that pushes all of the content stuff down. The site notice is temporary anyway.
:I was thinking we ought to make the movie stuff more prominent, rather than the continuity/category modules. I was also thinking of placing the banner, site notice, and external website links in one cell instead of two like it is now, which further creates whitespace... I just didn't think of that until after I made the layout change proposal pic.
:I do agree/think maybe we could stand to lose a few modules, though... maybe ditch the Categories module entirely, and consolidate the Holy Grails and Editing Tips somehow. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:32, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh yeah, you're running a 1024 desktop, aren't you? I changed my res to 1024, and you're right, it really doesn't look much different. But [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3349/tfwikitemp1280.jpg this] is how it looks in 1280, and even that little bit of extra space makes a huge difference compared with how it is [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4606/tfwikinow1280.jpg now] (in my opinion).
::I agree about the notice, but I couldn't think where else to put it. Putting it under the banner (thus between the blue and grey boxes) made it seem wedged-in and out of place. Lesser of two evils, you dig?
::I also agree about making the movie stuff more prominent, but the red and blue boxes are narrower, so they take up less of the horizontal space. I did think that maybe we could change the featured series box so that ROTF is ''on top'' of Animated instead of beside it, and shift that up next to the banner somewhat like it is on my temp page now. That also adapts to 1024 better, I think.
::And yeah, losing some of the boxes would not be the worst thing in the world. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ehh... my problem with that idea is that, one of the reasons we redesigned the Main Page to begin with is because our greeting was so big that it was pushing useful content down below the fold. This sort of recreates that exact same problem.
:::But, I tried tweaking my Main Page design here: [[User:Jeysie/Main Page]] to give more whitespace. I figure that once the movie's been out for a while and we don't need to pimp it as much, we can replace the Featured Characters box with the Continuities box. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:50, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::I was looking at the front page right now and thinking about some things - I'm glad to see most of them are in line with what's already considered. :)
::That said, I suggest taking TFA out of the featured series box, even if only temporarily, and using the [[:Image:Revenge fallen logo.jpg|logo from the franchise page]]. I feel it's more recognisable as the ROTF logo than the more colourful one we have there, plus we can make it a bit bigger.
::I also wonder if we should have "Transformers Wiki" written on there somewhere other than the site logo in the sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

:::: "TFWIKI.net - THE Transformers Wiki"? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:49, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I made up a [[:Image:Wikilogo big.psd|PSD template]] of just such a logo this morning. It's layered, so the transparent overlay of the Autobot leaders is optional.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:18, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I definitely prefer the font of the current TFWIKI.NET logo to that one.
::::::Whatever we ultimately do though, surely we should use the same logo EVERYWHERE, including for the top-left logo, ja? (There's also the recurring thought that we have a G1 Autobot sigil for the top-left logo, but a '''G2''' Autobot sigil for the favicon. I understand that the G2 favicon is unique, which was the main reason we went for it, but if we're thinking about branding...) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Logo===
[[Image:TFwikilogomock.png|right]]
If we want to be movie-centric AND use the TFWiki.net logo extensively for branding reasons, shouldn't we change the Animated-based logo to something more like this? (NB: Quick mock to make a point, '''not''' intended to be actually used, and may clash with the Teletraan on the Monacobook skin). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think we do need to keep some visual distinctiveness. If we go too far into the grey look of the movie we end up with understandable confusion concerning its resemblance to [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monaco-logo.png this].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah. I'm really really fine with keeping our current page design/color scheme. The Wikia site is really gray, and I'd rather not veer to close to that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::[Joke Suggestion] How about we make ours ''on fire''? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:27, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It wouldn't actually be ''that'' hard to do... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Featured-series box===
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series}}
|view=User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
Should we perhaps rebalance the featured-series box to be more like this? (Yes, I know there's a too-high gap between the two lines to the right of the TFA logo. It didn't preview like that, and I can't see why it's doing that.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:That's pretty darn sweet-looking, IMHO. I tried swapping around [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my take on the Main Page]] to include a slightly modified version of it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:16, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::The way it is on the mainpage right now looks really great. Good density of info above-the-fold.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:19, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Or rather on Jeysie's test page, I see now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thing about including [[Main Page/featured-characters]] in it like that (which I just edited to increase the header-size to be visually bigger than the character names, and debold the character names themselves) is that if you separate that from above AND below with a line, you visually make it into a franchise by itself. TFA needs a stronger separator from ROTF than the ROTF stuff does within itself. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:39, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
|view=Main Page/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
How about this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. I added it to my test Main Page with a few minor formatting tweaks. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks excellent to me! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:23, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Are we doing to do this then? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Was wondering that myself. Any more tweaks or suggestions to add, or should we go with my mockup? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:02, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::The mockup looks pretty solid to me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I say go for it! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:46, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Looking again at the featured-characters bit... is Sideswipe really the best choice for that fourth spot on row 1? I already changed Soundwave to Devastator, because the latter has been a LOT more prominent in promos for the movie, but I'm not sure who would be best for a fourth Autobot. Jetfire? Skids & Mudflap? (I'm not even sure if Ironhide is best for the third slot). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:54, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I was trying to think of a balance between which characters were most prominent and which people were likely to be excited about... we could go for Optimus, Bumblebee, Jetfire, and Skids & Mudflap together in the last spot. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:03, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Made that change for now, then. I think "prominence" should probably be the main factor, if we want to grab users. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:14, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

===Featured article===
Now that the featured series box has been sorted... nothing against Kup, but do we have a movie/ROTF article that could possibly take the featured spot at some point between now and the 19th? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[The Fallen]] is at Featured Article status. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::And has been the Featured Article for awhile at A Certain Other Place. I'd rather not mirror them in that respect, personally.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:22, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::In that case... I've got no idea. None of the rest are at FA status, and I can't think of which one would be most relevant to pick on for cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:31, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Surely the three most obvious non-Fallen articles "to pick on for cleanup" are [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)]] and [[Sam Witwicky]], ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:51, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Simmons might be mroe fun. ;)
:::::And Megatron more enlightening, if someone wants to take a whack at his DS-game backstory. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:17, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Looks like Primal Prime is the featured article at that other place, not The Fallen. In fact, it looks like their Fallen article has a cleanup tag, not a featured tag... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:07, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, someone replaced it a couple of days ago after noticing that their "The Fallen" article wasn't up to scratch. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:40, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Any objection to us featuring our superior The Fallen article after all, then? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, on the 24th, the Fallen's page is going up. ESPECIALLY if it's also up at Wikia. Our Fallen page has to supercede theirs, and burying it on the most important week of its life isn't gonna work in our favor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Hell, if we want to upstage 'em over at Wikia, just put [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] as one of the featured characters. I was over there just to see how far the site had gone downhill and it surprised me. They ''don't even have a page for Sideswipe'', it just redirects you to G1 Sideswipe. How sad is that?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 00:13, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:How hard did you look? I wont link it for obvious reasons, but there IS a page for him. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:22, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he got messed up by the fact that the Main Page links to "Sideswipe" without the parenthetical, which does indeed redirect to G1 Sideswipe.
::Having said that, their proper ROTF Sideswipe page is still miserable compared to ours, as is the fact that they got the Main Page linking wrong.
::Not only that... I also noticed that one of their registered users, while editing their Main Page, managed to change their Twitter link to our Twitter in the process. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah I didn't look very hard (alcohol is a helluva thing), the link was what I went for. Obviously someone over there screwed up. You got a problem with it Cattleprod, kiss my shiny, metal ass.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:29, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

===Text Purging===
Next possible round of changes:
I've tweaked [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my setup]] to remove the Categories module (is it really that useful?) and try to reduce/consolidate the Editing Tips/Holy Grails section.

I also think we should do a purge of the Series box and stick to just the "major" series/franchises: Generation 1, Generation 2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, the two movies, and Universe. (Possibly also Classics and/or Beast Machines). We have the comprehensive list linked to for anyone who really wants to look at everything. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:The categories box is useful for two reasons: (1) In and of itself, it's useful. I certainly use it. (2) Without it, your mockup has an empty white space in the right column almost the exact size and shape of the categories box... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:49, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I further note that, [[:Image:Mainpage analytics-06-05-09.png|per Derik's statdump]], it ''gets used''. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:53, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::Well, if you can suggest other ways to clean up our Main Page, I'm all for it. As it is, I agree with Walky that it's getting to be too much of a sea of text, and that struck me as being one of the least useful of the modules. I guess we could consolidate it somehow with the Continuities module as a sort of "Quick Links" box...
::We possibly could also get rid of the Editing Tips and Holy Grail modules, but I kind of hate doing that, as it's nice to try to encourage new editors to look at that sort of information. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::Thing is, if I click on the first link in the Categories box because I want to find a particular character, I get a big confusing list of subcategories and... [[Mickey Mouse]]. If I'm a casual user looking for,say, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], that doesn't help me much, because then I have to hunt through the subcategories for something that looks like it might lead me there. Yes, it's possible that I might notice the search box and use that instead, but that kinda takes away from the point of having that there in the first place.
::Though technically I guess I'm complaining about the organisation of the Characters category rather than the box itself. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

== Jokes? ==

It is sometimes very hard to find relevant information on this wiki among all the juvenile humor. It's a little off-putting for a casual user like myself. I know this wiki is about robots who turn into cars, but, c'mon... Maybe tone it down a bit?[[Special:Contributions/71.107.102.102|71.107.102.102]] 16:56, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

:No. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 17:00, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::If you can point out specific instances where the humor is getting in the way of the information, we'll take those under consideration for adjusting, but on the whole we here tend to appreciate the humor. (Including this editor back when she was a newbie/casual reader.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::As does the overwhelming majority of the readership, it seems. We've gotten praise from all circles for the "do not take it too seriously" approach, even from industry professionals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Tech Upgrades ==

Since we're cracking 1.5 million hits per day, I'm running an alternate webserver for testing over on [http://tfwiki.net:8080/ port 8080.] It's *not* cached, so I expect it to be a smidge slower, but I'm also aggressively tweaking it for better content compression and lower memory usage. It probably doesn't matter *now,* but I suspect that as we close in on the movie, and then as the movie is released and the edits go up, we're going to need to squeeze out every last ounce of performance available to us. That said, can you guys try to break it via logging in/out, editing articles, etc.? It's all on the same database, so any changes made there WILL show up here (and vice versa,) but my major concern is that we don't have those damned login session problems and their ilk going forward. Thanks! --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:05, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:So... an "editing copy" on one server, and a cached copy on another? Because 99% of TFWiki readers aren't editors? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:53, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::Let's not overcomplicate it. Test on the new link, the software driving that will replace the existing (more resource intensive) software '''if it's any good.''' At this point, I want to find out if there are any bugs, and that's that. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got a 405 error when I tried to upload an image on there, but otherwise it seems to be working great. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

=="Wikia wiki" boilerplate==
Between FortMax, Skyjammer and myself, I believe all instances of "Teletraan-I a wikia wiki" etc have been removed from our webpages. Huzzah! Hopefully that will help our Google stats and suchlike, unless I am mis-remembering how those things work... --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 18:31, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:*thumbsup!* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:28, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

== Special:Imagelist ==

Is there any way to strip out the deleted images from [[Special:Imagelist]]? It's kinda useless as things stand. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:11, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Anonymous users ==

Right, the movie goes wide-release in the UK on Friday (I think there may be some previews on Thursday). Thinking about the chaos that may result [and noting that Memory Alpha - much to Wikia's displeasure - disabled ALL editing between the first opening of ''Star Trek'' and its' wide release in the US.]... I think we should give serious consideration to disabling anonymous editing from at least the 18th to the 26th of June.

Thoughts? Objections? Flames? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:I've been advocating that for over a month. It's the same thing we did with Animated: material is blocked for anons until it comes out in America. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::I wasn't talking about blocking specific pages, though (in the way a load of ''Animated'' pages were semi-protected) - just a blanket ban on anonymous editing until ''at least'' the 26th (and I would prefer a week or two beyond that). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:57, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'd much prefer if it wasn't a total block. Block anons on all the movie char character articles, etc. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::Block until a week after the movie's released in the States, namely the chara articles and the film page itself (who knows what poor soul will "unknowingly" put in spoilerific in the synopsis/trivia/notes/what-have-you). It's already difficult enough with the adaptation... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm not just worried about spoilers, but about the casual vandalism associated with a sudden & short-lived spike in visitor numbers, which probably wouldn't be limited to the movie pages. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:10, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::If we do so, should we have a site-wide message like Memory Alpha? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:08, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At least I know we can use [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], I'm not sure whether there is any other similar message. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:37, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::Wow, some serious US-centric bias being spouted. If you don't want spoiled, then don't visit. It's now well established internet etiquette to avoid forums about a week before a film's release. Same should apply here. Or..... wait til the DVD is released before unlocking movie edits, just in case you're stuck in Outer Mongolia at the time of the cinema release. Anonymous editing should be blocked, if only to stop the inevitable trolling and vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 14:07, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Er, no. For one, the 24th is the '''world''' premiere, meaning the vast majority of countries are getting it on that date, not just the US.
:::::::::For two, we need to be able to monitor all edits made to ROTF articles to make sure they're accurate and factual, and we can't do that if most of the wiki's regular editors haven't even seen the movie.
:::::::::So this has less to do with spoilers, and more with the entirely practical aim of being able to keep tabs on all ROTF edits effectively. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:19, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Gosh, thanks, I'll take your advice under consideration.... wait, no, I really won't. If you have a problem with "U.S.-centric bias," you are in the wrong place: this is openly stated as a U.S.-centric wiki. We blocked anonymous edits to the new ''Animated'' episodes that for some damnfool reason were aired first in Dubai, until they were uploaded online for everyone to see. Our U.S.-based editors shouldn't have to stop working on a website that, to a large extent, ''they created'', just out of fear that some collection of I.P. numbers will thoughtlessly spoil the movie for them. Better to just anon-protect all the movie-related pages until after all the major markets have had their premieres. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:12, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

My vote is for blocking all anons from the movie-related pages for at least one week after the world premier, maybe two. I would not be opposed to a site-wide block, however. I really have no interest in cleaning up after a flood of one-timers and trolls and crap. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:23, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hey, I'm all for the lockage. But to stop the wave of trolls that will come. Not because Americans seem to think they have the <insert deity>-given right to subjugate the free speech of others who have the rare opportuity to experience something before the Americans do. That hardly ever happens. America gets everything first; cars, movies, fat, gadgets, first dibs on invasion etc. Thankfully they don't get irony first.[[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 15:38, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Did you even read the post where I pointed out the vast majority of TF fans, both US and non-US, won't be seeing the movie before the 24th, because the vast majority of countries in general aren't getting it until the 24th?
:::Basically, all TF fans not in the UK and Japan aren't going to be getting to see the movie before the 24th. It's not as if we're making editing wait because everyone else is getting the movie early and the US is the only country that isn't.
:::All of our Canadian, Australian, non-UK European, non-Japan Asian, etc. editors are likely equally glad we're waiting. Maybe you should stop and actually think before you go off spouting jerkass strawman accusations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Are you ''intentionally'' aiming for self-parody, or did you actually seriously just try to frame your potentially being locked out of our privately-run, privately-financed web site about giant alien space robots for a few days as a ''freedom of speech'' issue? 'Cause that right there is some serious comedy gold, sir. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:54, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'm afraid there are no Internet Oscars for maudlin self-victimization, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in. Here we only talk about Transformers. You are free to start doing that any old time. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hahaha, did he just equate being able to post to a wiki about cartoon robots for a few days... to the right to free speech? Man, and I thought education was bad over HERE! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:03, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

===One derailment later...===
So, then, back on the subject... I still think we should do it. Mr Anon isn't making me think less of it as an idea. And yes, a [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] would be essential. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:33, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:So, we're all for blocking anons for a week after the 24th? --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:31, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::They're gonna get pissy, but sounds good to me. But what about the editors who can't log in, is that still a problem?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 09:52, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Most likely. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Which editors who can't log in? The problem with IE users not being able to log in was fixed when McFly fixed all the other problems on the site. I haven't heard of any reports of anyone else having the problem... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:32, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Transformers Comic" ==

Okay, I've got three issues at present with the titling treatment of the Titan Movie comics:
#Ambiguity - if you look at, say, [[Transformers Comic issue 9]], there's ''at least'' three Transformers #9s with no subtitle - [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|Marvel G1 US #9]], [[Man of Iron!|Marvel G1 UK #9]], and [[Transformers Comic issue 9|Titan Movie #9]]; and currently the only one at "Transformers Comic issue 9" is the Titan Movie issue
#DO we go by issue, or by story? - We're all over the shop on this:
#*The Marvel US issues are all at the story titles, but these pages incorporate any "Transformers Universe" bio material
#*The Marvel UK issues almost all have multiple stories or parts of stories, and I think there may even be some issues with multiple UK-originated/non-reprint stories, and each story is at its' own page, ''which incorporates multiple issues'' (e.g., [[Time Wars]]), leaving aside editorial and other non-story material.
#*The Marvel G2 issues almost all have backups, sometimes nominal, sometimes not, and they're all at the title of the lead/non-"Tales of Earth" story (e.g. [[New Dawn]]).
#*The ''first'' Panini Armada issue is at the story title ([[First Encounter!]]), while the ''rest'' are at "Panini Armada issue X" (e.g., [[Panini Armada issue 2]]).
#*The IDW issues are at the issue title even where the issue is split into multiple, titled. stories (e.g. [[The Arrival issue 4]])
#The actual title of the Titan Movie issues - Titan Movie v1 #22-25 are actually titled ''Transformers: Universe'' #22-25 (mostly in reflection of it absorbing the cancelled ''Animated'' comic), but are still at "Transformers Comic issue XX"; while v2, titled ''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' #XX, is at the truly bizarre "Transformers Comic 2.XX". Really, just because the letters page said 2.x once, rather than "Revenge of the Fallen (Titan) issue X", which is what's on the cover?
What are we doing with this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:As I've said before, I do NOT favor consistency here. A one-size-fits-all approach will inevitably fail to encompass the widely variable situations with various comic series.
:The Marvel US book are under the story titles because, for all intents and purposes, the story and the issue are one and the same. Likewise for most of Dreamwave's G1 run. Sure, we could move 'em all to "The Transformers issue 2 (Marvel US)", but what do we ''gain''? How is this any better than "Power Play!"? What is the benefit? Mere consistency is insufficient reason.
:This is much, much less true with the UK comic, where stories were broken into two and even three parts, and multiple stories shared page space in the same issue. Now, I've heard rumblings to the effect that each UK issue should have its own page, and there's merit to that, insofar as each issue's contents are a mixed bag - minicomics, letters pages, and pieces and parts of various stories. It might make sense to have a page for each issue, basically a list of its contents, with ''See main article'' links to the entire story -- so, say, UK #88, #89, #90, or whatever, all link to a single page for "Target: 2006".
:With G2, it absolutely makes complete sense to combine the two stories. The "backup" strips are such in name only; they are absolutely integral to the main strip, and neither can be read without the other. Separating "Tales of Earth" bits into their own pages is only going to confuse things and make them ''less informative''. Furthermore, the main strip clearly ''is'' the MAIN strip. It makes sense to cover the whole story under that strip's title. Our current system for G2 acknowledges this, while still distinguishing between the contents of each section. The alternative is to move each page to "Generation 2 issue 2" or whatever... and I don't see what we gain by doing this.
:The Titan comics should be moved to whatever the cover and indicia call them. If they're just ''Transformers'' or something equally generic, well, that's what parenthetical disambigs are for. Likewise for the ROTF reboot. A simple (Titan) should cover the bases well enough, yes?
:A recent trend has been issues with 2 discreet stories, such as the ''Animated'' books you mention. I've long been in favor of having a single page for the ''issue'' for such books, with ''See main article'' links to the individual stories within them - so "Animated: The Arrival issue 2" would be a list of stuff, with two prominent links within to pages about the two stories it contains. Still, I can understand if people see that as unnecessarily messy -- so long as they can agree that, since the stories are pretty much co-equal, it would make no sense at all to give one or the other naming precedence.
:So, that's my take. Case-by-case basis FTW, baby. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:43, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:Also, to address item #1 specifically... if we do stick with "Transformers" as the title, there should be a disambig note for Transformers at the top. Unless "Comic" is in the title, it shouldn't be in there. I'm thinking the article names should be "Transformers issue 1 (Titan)", etc., with the parenthetical at the end of the page title, rather than the middle.
:These books generally have stories from different continuities, don't they? That's a point in favor of separating the story content out from the containing issue. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== Non-movie (Movie) characters vs. movie (ROTF) characters with the same name ==

Anyone else think we should, at the very least, have {{tl|disambig2}}s on pages like [[Jetfire (Movie)]] and [[Mudflap (Movie)]] to the ROTF characters of the same name? Yes, I realise users could go via the disambig page, but I see it as making things simpler & easier for newbies, and in that scenario one click is always better than two. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think I'd cautiously support adding a <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki> for characters of the same name within the same continuity if there seems like a good chance for confusion. I'd oppose imposing it as an across-the-board standard though. (You're nto suggesting that though.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I oppose it on the principle that multiple disambig templates on a page is ugly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:47, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ugly, and you can get to where you need to go through the disambig. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Here's the thing though - '''is it intiutive''' for a complete newbie, who came in via ROTF, to see "Optimus Prime (Movie)", "Bumblebee (Movie)" and "Megatron (Movie)" '''and not immediately conclude''' that the Jetfire article will be at "Jetfire (Movie)", rather than some incredibly obscure card-puzzle that even we don't have a final picture for?
:::::Hell, even take it a step up from "complete newbie" to someone who sat through Beast Wars/Machines or Armada/Energon/Cybertron, where characters changed bodies between series so that they had very little resemblance to their prior selves (in the UT's case, without any explanation). Those guys might assume that "Mudflap (Movie)" *is* Skids' twin even if he bears no resemblance to him. And it was a guy making that exact mistake and getting reverted by you last night that caused me to post this.
:::::I really think a BIG, prominent link DIRECTLY from the obscure (Movie) character to the prominent (ROTF) character is required. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:26, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::As long as there's a link to the same-universe namesake in the intro, I see no need for an additional disambig template. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:21, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Female Transformer

2009-06-19T04:27:09Z

Fleb: /* Animated */ there's Bulkhead's jawdrop...

{{disambig2|female Transformers in general|the [[Autobot]] resistance group led by [[Elita One]]|Female Autobots}}
[[Image:ArceeManga1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Arcee, the most famous female Transformer, poses for the boys. Way to set an example there.]]
Despite being robotic lifeforms with generally non-sexual methods of [[Reproduction| reproduction]], the [[Transformer]] species has almost always been shown to include both male and female gender analogues, at least mentally if not physically. '''Female Transformers''' are usually portrayed as comparatively rare, but are considered an official part of the Transformers franchise in pretty much every continuity.

Click here for a '''[[List of female Transformers]]''' from all continuities.

==Appearance==
[[Image:BMStrika.jpg|left|170px|thumb|Our mechanics assure us this is a woman.]]
The appearance of female Transformers in most continuities would seem to suggest a level of "sexual" dimorphism is present in at least the more humanoid members of the Transformers species (the term sexual is used in a gender-based, rather than physical sense, see the reproduction link above for that whole kettle of robo-fish). In almost all cases female Transformers are portrayed as comparatively more graceful of form, and more rounded and curved in general, than their male counterparts. Often they have a more than passing resemblance to an attractive human female made of metal and wearing armor and [[kibble]].

There are exceptions to this rule, and bulky, less overtly human-female-like characters have become more common, particularly among those who have toys. These are especially common in the [[Unicron Trilogy]] series and in latter expansions of the [[Generation 1 (continuity family)|Generation 1]] series out of Japan, when the characters are often assigned to pre-existing "masculine" toys. Perhaps the best counter-example of this type is [[Strika (BM)|Strika]], who is (allegedly) female yet neither looks nor acts stereotypically feminine at all.

==Romance==
Despite their robotic nature and likely non-sexual means of reproduction, romance between male and female Transformers is a well-established factor in pretty much every continuity in which both appear (which is pretty much every continuity).

Regardless of the whys and wherefores many romantic male-female Transformer pairings have appeared over the years, including:

*[[Beta]] - [[Alpha Trion]]
*[[Elita One]] (Ariel) - [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (Orion Pax)
*[[Chromia (G1)|Chromia]] - [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]]
*[[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] - [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]]
*Arcee - [[Springer (G1)|Springer]]
*Arcee - [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] {{storylink|The Headmasters (cartoon)|The Headmasters}}
*Arcee (she gets around) - [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] {{storylink|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers}}
*[[Nancy]] - [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]]
*[[Esmeral]] - [[Deathsaurus]]
*[[Clipper]] - [[Holi]]
*[[Ragé]] - [[Stampy]]
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] - [[Tigatron]]
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] - [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]]
*[[Botanica]] - [[Rattrap]]
*[[Strika (BM)|Strika]] - [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]]<ref>When Obsidian refers to Strika as his consort in [[Sparkwar Pt. I: The Strike]] he appears to have been using the less-common "associate" or "partner" definition. There are no displays of affection between them during [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|''Beast Machines'']], and [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide|secondary information sources]] describe them only as "cohorts".</ref>
*[[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] has a female "life partner" whose name has yet to be revealed.
*[[San D-Go]] once had plans to marry [[Discharge]], apparently directly inspired by that aspect of [[human]] culture. Whether there was an actual romantic relationship involved is unknown.
*[[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock]] has a one-sided crush on [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]]
*[[Crystal Widow]] had an unnamed lover before becoming stuck in the [[Axiom Nexus]]

==Fandom and Terminology==
Probably because of their rarity in official fiction and toylines, female Transformers are popular plot devices in [[fan fiction]], where the term "femme" is often used to describe them, with "mech"<ref>While "femme" obviously is related to the French word for "woman", it's occasionally claimed that the use of "mech" as a name for male Transformers is derived from "mec", the French word for "guy" or "dude". This is probably more coincidence than anything, though.</ref> likewise being applied to "male" Transformers. In official fiction, the term "fembot" has been used on at least two occasions<ref>[[Rattrap]] refers to [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'']] [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]] as "Ya emasculatin' fembot!" after she cuts the tip from his tail/sword in "[[Nemesis Part 2]]"; while ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Animated]]'' [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] wonders in "[[Endgame, Part II]]" what chance he has in flying combat against the [[Lugnut Supreme|Lugnuts Supreme]] if he "couldn't handle [[Slipstream (Animated)|Starscream's fembot clone]]" on [[Endgame, Part I|his test run]].</ref> and "mech" has been used as a gender-neutral common noun for Transformers in various stories.

Likewise, there is a fan term for romantic relationships between Transformers: "[[spark]]mates". This has surprisingly been used in one official source—the end-of-game [[bio]] for [[Airazor]] (referring to her and [[Tigatron]]) in the Nintendo 64 version of the [[Transformers Beast Wars: Transmetals|Beast Wars Transmetals]] video game.<ref>''Beast Wars Transmetals'' end-of-game bios - [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/756a36c7076a7195?dmode=source transcription] </ref>

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon===
:''For further information, see: [[Female Autobots]]''

[[Image:G1femmes.jpg|right|450px|thumb|A bunch of Female Autobots from the G1 toon and Alpha Trion. His pimp cane was removed in post-production.]]
This continuity makes female Transformers out to be a rarity, once thought extinct. Given the appearance of Beta back in the slave days under [[Quintesson]] rule, it seems clear they were produced alongside the male [[Autobot|Autobots]] as part of the Quintessons' domestic product line. There are no [[Decepticon]] females in American continuity, however. This does make some sense within the context of the series, as the Autobots were created to be slaves while the Decepticons were made to be soldiers. It's likely that female-styled Autobots were created to perform labor stereotypically regarded as "women's work".

[[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]] has a "[[Nancy|Junkion lady]]" companion in one episode. Just how relationships function in this isolated, media-based Transformers society is unclear, although it's notable that Wreck-Gar and his lady friend "slept" sitting up next to each other on giant thrones between television broadcast cycles. The lady's character model is actually that of a female [[Lithone (planet)|Lithone]], another mechanical race, but whether this is meaningful in any way or simple model recycling is uncertain.

In "[[Starscream's Ghost]]", [[Octane]] tries to tune in an image of a [[Cheesecake robot|disturbingly sexualized unnamed female robot]]. Make of that what you will.

In the French dub of ''[[Transformers: The Movie]]'' (but not in the TV series), both [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] and [[Shrapnel (G1)|Shrapnel]] were referred to as female, with [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] calling Starscream "une imbecile" at one point (French articles are gendered), and Shrapnel referred to as "Mademoiselle". The reason for this gender-switch was never fully explained, though it presumably has something to do with both Starscream's and Shrapnel's rather high-pitched voices.
{{-}}

===Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity===
[[Image:Nomates.jpg|left|200px|thumb|And what will happen is like this.]]
No female Transformers are ever seen or referred to in the US stories, and when [[Cloudburst]] is pressured into a relationship with the beautiful [[First One]] of [[Femax]], he explains that Transformers, as a species, have no gender. {{storylink|Recipe for Disaster!|Recipe for Disaster!}} The UK stories corroborate this, and [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] is intentionally created by the Autobots to be the sole female Transformer in an attempt to placate [[human]] feminists. {{storylink|Prime's Rib!|Prime's Rib!}} (See her picture above for a hint of how well that went over.)

[[BotCon]]'s ''[[Classics (2006)|Classics]]'' fiction, while not including the UK material, introduced [[Elita One]] in a similar manner as UK Arcee. {{storylink|Games of Deception|Games of Deception}}

(This continuity has, historically, been surprisingly alone in declaring Transformers to be naturally gender free.)
{{-}}
===''Victory'' comic===
[[Image:Esmeryl-manga.jpg|right|150px|thumb|This is an official Transformers character. No, really.]]
[[Decepticon]] females make their first (yet still to this day very rare) appearance in official fiction as [[Esmeral]] ([[Deathsaurus]]'s wife) and [[Lyzack]] ([[Leozack]]'s sister). Both show up to show the Autobots just what it is Deathsaurus and his crew have been fighting for all this time: their poor female counterparts and countless children back home. This spares the Decepticons' lives in the final battle between the two forces. This certainly casts an odd light on the matter of Transformer [[reproduction]] (and on the manga author).

Meanwhile, in the animated series, the [[Micromaster]] [[Holi]] is shown to have a girlfriend on the planet [[Micro]], [[Clipper]]. There doesn't seem to be much special about her, aside from her being fairly competent and not subservient to guys at all.
{{-}}

===''Beast Wars''===

[[Image:TM2_Blackarachnia.jpg|left|250px|thumb|She was extremely popular with fans, I wonder why...]]

Female Transformers seem to be common here, with no one showing any surprise over their presence. Some of the Transformers also appear to have picked up human-style attitudes of women as a fairer and more vulnerable gender, with [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] refusing to fight a female out of <strike>lust</strike> chivalry. Most of the other Transformers, however, seem unconcerned about this.

[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] both engage in romances with male [[Maximal|Maximals]], the former blatantly and the latter far more subtly.

Over the course of the show Rattrap makes numerous innuendos, especially involving Silverbolt and Blackarachnia's relationship, that suggest that, at least by that era, there may have been something sex-like between Transformers. He also makes references to a bar on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] where the wait-staff go "without their torso-plates on"... which frankly sounds like it'd be really messy.

In the spin-off comics, [[Manta Ray (BW)|Manta Ray]] and [[Sonar (BW)|Sonar]] were both turned ''into'' female Transformers.

===''Beast Wars II''===
[[Scylla]] is the impetus for a big ridiculous love triangle of hilarity and embarrassment in both the animated and manga continuities. She is in love with the squid-bot [[Scuba]], who wants nothing to do with her. Meanwhile, the Maximal [[Bighorn]] is in love with Scylla, who wants nothing to do with him.

The non-Transformer female robot [[Artemis]] harbors a crush on both Scuba (poor guy) and [[Starscream (BWII)|Starscream]].

===''Beast Machines''===
''Beast Machines''' [[technorganic]] reformatting raises even further questions about what it means to be a "female transformer". It is possible that the Technorganic female Transformers, being merged organic and technological life to a cellular level, might actually be ''physically'' female.

[[Rattrap]] and [[Botanica]] end up in a romantic relationship towards the end of ''[[Beast Machines]]'' ("So, I'm a tree-hugger!" Rattrap remarks). What this means for his bar-hopping days is never explored.

The [[Vehicon]] [[Strika (BM)|Strika]] is referred to as the "consort" of [[Obsidian (BM)|Obsidian]], and has been serving by his side, seemingly as an equal, for centuries. Some have taken this to mean the two have a romantic interest in each other, but the show itself does not offer any hints to this.

===Dreamwave comic continuity===
According to DK's ''Transformers: The Ultimate Guide'', "Transformers are inherently non-gender specific, and only some quirk of their timelost origins can account for [female Transformers'] difference in appearance and attitude." Dreamwave was in the process of introducing more female Transformers and explicating their links to the Quintessons in this continuity when it went out of business.

===Unicron Trilogy===
[[Image:Twirl-Baby.jpg|right|250px|thumb|But she's got your altmode!]]
The existence of female Transformers throughout the [[Unicron Trilogy]] is portrayed as slightly uncommon (it is a fiction aimed at young boys, after all), but hardly remarkable. They just exist, as do "males", and no special attention is called to them. Quite a few appear in various places in "[[Motorcycle refugee|civilian]]" roles, as [[Autobot nurse|nurses]], and even on [[Velocitron band|colony worlds]].

There are examples and hints of romantic interest between males and females in both ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' ([[Redline]] and [[Falcia]] in the [[Linkage (comic)|''Linkage'' comics]], plus [[Nightscream (Armada)|Nightscream's]] eagerness to appease and defend his [[bulk]] partner [[Airazor (Armada)|Airazor]]), and ''[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' stories (most obviously [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast's]] intense infatuation with [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]], [[Ransack (Cybertron)|Ransack's]] secret crush on [[Override (Cybertron)|Override]], plus [[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] reportedly has an unnamed female "life partner" lost somewhere on [[Earth]]). This too is treated as a fairly common event.

There are female Transformers in positions of very high power as well: in the [[Energon (cartoon)|''Energon'' cartoon]], [[Arcee (Energon)|Arcee]] is the leader of the entire [[Omnicon]] race, while in ''Cybertron'', Override is the leader of the planet [[Velocitron]]. So far, the Unicron Trilogy is the only ''Transformers'' continuity to ''give'' female Transformers that level of responsibility.

In the French version of the ''Energon'' cartoon, Arcee is dubbed by a man. ''Why'' she was is currently unknown.

===IDW comic continuity===

[[Image:Spotlight_Arcee_b.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Information: you are ALL going to DIE.]]

Originally [[Simon Furman]] stated that he would not use female Transformers in IDW continuity until he came up with a reason for them to exist that made logical sense to him. He did not rule out doing so, as he said he had found a similar justification for the [[Pretender|Pretenders]], which led to the [[Stormbringer (comics)|Stormbringer]] miniseries.

Despite this, in ''[[Megatron Origin]]'' [[Alex Milne]] drew what are clearly intended to be female Transformers in a good number of "easter egg" cameo appearances. (Cameos included female [[Tonka GoBots]] character [[Crasher (G1)|Crasher]], [[Elita One]], [[Chromia (G1)|Chromia]], and a number of generic background femmes.)

This was finally resolved in [[Spotlight: Arcee]], where it was revealed that the malevolent Golden Age Cybertronian scientist [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] introduced gender to the Cybertronian genome just to see what it'd do. Tampering with the [[CNA]] of the titular character at her creation to make her Female, he discarded his experiment once he was finished, only to find she had an inherent homing instinct for his creations. Arcee's systems were severely messed up by this experiment, causing her to become tremendously unstable to the point of psychosis and fixated on getting revenge on Jhiaxus.

While the story implies that she is something very rare and unique it does not say that she was the ''only'' female Transformer Jhiaxus created, merely the first, leaving it open for the cameos in Megatron Origin to remain in continuity.

Jhiaxus specifically alters Arcee's CNA to make her female and introduce gender to the species. Exactly how deep these alterations went, how closely her form was designed to match the females of organic species on which she was based (particularly in relation to reproduction) is unknown and will likely remain so.

===2007 movie===

[[Image:Arceemovie.jpg|right|thumb|Comic artists ''cry'' when they see this model sheet.]]

[[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]] was originally going to be featured as part of the cast of the ''[[Transformers (2007)|Transformers]]'' film, but was cut early on in the movie's development. The script writers felt they would need to explain the presence of a female in an entirely robotic race, and there was not enough time in the film to do so. Arcee was replaced in the movie by [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]]. Even so, Arcee was featured in IDW's [[Movie prequel (2007)|Movie Prequel comics]] and remains in the movie toyline as both Deluxe and Scout-class toys.

One other female Autobot is featured in the movie continuity family, another Scout-class toy, [[Elita-One]]. Both Elita and Arcee, however, are featured in [[Transformers (Titan Magazine)|Titan Magazine's]] alternate reality stories as regular characters, with Arcee getting more prominence. Both also appear in IDW's Movie Sequel comic series ''[[The Reign of Starscream]]'', with Arcee playing quite a prominent leadership role. Surprisingly, Elita-One does not fair as well as her sister-in-arms, dying at the claws of [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] himself. Although it is unusual for a female Transformer to die in fiction, ([[To sell toys|compared to how often Transformer death happens in general]]) it has [[Manta Ray (BW)|happened]] [[Sonar (BW)|before]].

As for Decepticons, [[Fracture]], based off of the aforementioned Crasher, was recently added to the end of the movie toyline as a Wal-mart exclusive. She has been featured in Titan Magazine's comics, as of issue 18, and in IDW's ''[[Transformers: Alliance]]'' series as of issue 3.

In all the comics where female Transformers do appear in the Movie continuality, their gender is never considered an issue. This raises questions about just how necessary "explaining" them would be in [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen|future movies]].
{{-}}
===''Animated''===
[[Image:Animated_females.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Did you ever feel like the only original designs in a sea full of homages?]]
Female Transformers were present in ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]]'' from the very beginning of the cartoon, starting with [[Blackarachnia (Animated)|Blackarachnia]]. What this meant for the state of females in the continuity at large was not immediately apparent; in "[[Along Came a Spider]]", both [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] and [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] expressed confusion as to ''what'' Blackarachnia was. Though they could have been referring to her [[Technorganic|partially organic]] nature, [[Sari Sumdac|Sari]]'s comment ("Duh, she's a girl.") seems to imply that the two Autobots were confused about Blackarachnia's gender. The fact that no other characters familiar with Blackarachnia (including [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Blitzwing (Animated)|all]] [[Lugnut|her]] [[Starscream (Animated)|Decepticon]] [[Megatron (Animated)|shipmates]]) did not react to her in an unusual way, however, suggests it was more of a misunderstanding on Sari's part used for comedic effect.

As the series proceeded, multiple lady-bots were progressively introduced, including a [[Slipstream (Animated)|female clone]] of [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]], [[Arcee (Animated)|Arcee]], [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]] and [[Strika (Animated)|Strika]]. Civilian females were also seen in crowd scenes, including [[Glyph (Animated)|Glyph]], [[Rosanna (Animated)|Rosanna]], [[Flareup (Animated)|Flareup]], and two unnamed females pictured at left. Although they remain distinctly outnumbered by the male Transformers, this makes it clearly while female Transformers may be relatively uncommon, they aren't considered very remarkable or noteworthy—unless you're a young, male Autobot who's spent ''waaaaayy'' too much time fixing space bridges.

Despite Optimus's confusion over where organic babies come from in "[[Transform and Roll Out]]", implying that there is no Cybertronian equivalent to [[Reproduction|sexual reproduction]] in ''Animated'', Transformer ''relationships'' are implied to be a possibility, as in "[[Along Came a Spider]]" and "[[Black Friday (episode)|Black Friday]]", respectively, Blackarachnia takes advantage of [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]]'s and the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobot]]s' obvious interest in her, especially [[Grimlock (Animated)|Grimlock's]].

[[Ratchet (Animated)|Ratchet's]] role as the Autobot medical officer was originally supposed to be assigned to a character named [[Red Alert (Animated)|Red Alert]], who was originally designed as a female but then turned male. When brought in at the start of Season 3, Red Alert was female once again as a homage to the original design.

==Footnotes==
<references />

[[Category:Female Transformers]]
[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Transformer culture]]
[[Category:Generation 1]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2009-06-19T04:13:15Z

Fleb: /* Derik causes problems */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

'''The move away from Wikia:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints]]

'''Our policy on having ads in the wiki:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads]]

'''The Bookworm database-crash:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2]]

'''The server move:'''
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2]]

{{chapters
|title=Community Portal Archives
|content=*[[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive1|Archive 1]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive2|Archive 2]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive3|Archive 3]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive4|Archive 4]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive5|Archive 5]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive6|Archive 6]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive7|Archive 7]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive8|Archive 8]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive9|Archive 9]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive10|Archive 10]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive11|Archive 11]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive12|Archive 12]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive13|Archive 13]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive14|Archive 14]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive15|Archive 15]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive16|Archive 16]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive17|Archive 17]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive18|Archive 18]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive19|Archive 19]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive20|Archive 20]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive21|Archive 21]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive22|Archive 22]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive23|Archive 23]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive24|Archive 24]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive25|Archive 25]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive26|Archive 26]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive27|Archive 27]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive28|Archive 28]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive29|Archive 29]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive30|Archive 30]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive31|Archive 31]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive32|Archive 32]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive33|Archive 33]]
}}

== Quotes ==
{{note|This discussion was moved from [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central#Quotes]].}}

Quotes now seem to look like this:

{{quote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

when IIRC before the crash they look like this:

{{bigquote|Freedom is the right of all sentient beings|Optimus Prime}}

Now, it seems we can get the second result using the <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> template instead of the basic <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> template that is currently populating most of the pages.

I'm of the opinion that the bigquote look is much more pleasing to the eye and it also seemed to be the norm before the crash. Should we change the quotes to bigquotes on individual pages or just have someone with template knowledge make a change there? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 23:29, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:Discussion on [[Template_talk:Quote]] suggests that bigquote is the old style and quote is the new style. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
::Mind you I didn't ''ask'' anyone before swapping styles-- the intention was to give people a chance to evaluate the new look, but we only had it for a few days before the crash... so I don't think anyone noticed. :p
::It's my opinion that the old quote template took up too much space-- which is find for a single quote at the top of an article when you want to make a big thing of it, but I thought ''most'' uses of the template would look nicer with s smaller visual footprint. (Plus the html is more contextual.)
::Some people seem to dislike the chevron-style quoting... it's consistent with what, at the time, were our new reference templates-- also lost in the crash. The real appeal, to me, is that it lets you put quotes ''inside'' the quote template (such as an exchange between characters) without looking weird. The way we ''used'' to do that was multiple quote templates in a row, which (being oversize already) resulted in a massive on-screen footprint.
::If the consensus is to switch to the bigQuote format for all quotes instead of the smaller one, I guess that's the community's perogative... but I'm gonna argue against it until that decision is made.
::I ''like'' bitQuote-- it's great if you want a quote to be a big thing. Most of the time you don't. When you do-- why not just use <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki>? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:48, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
:::Ahhh, my mistake! I coulda sworn I'd seen quote in use longer! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:55, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

::Why I don't like "quote":
::#It's ugly.
::#It's '''bigger''' than bigQuote. That seems to defeat the whole point.
::#Single guillemots ''don't get used as quotation marks in English'' and so '''they don't parse as quotation marks'''.
::#It's '''incredibly''' ugly.
::#And finally-if-slightly-tangentially, there's a conscious effort, it seems, to change all "bigquotes" to "quotes", which defeats the whole point of having two templates.
::Definite vote to revert - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:35, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

I vote against the revert. I do not like the old quote style, as noted on the above-linked discussion page. All we need to do is change the guillemots to quote marks and it's fine by me. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:08, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
In accordance with the general wishes of the community, the quotes have been changed from guillemots to standard quotation... though I think it looks terribly ''silly'' that way. You can see just how silly over at [[Template_talk:Quote]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:57, 10 April 2009 (EDT)
:Well, one day after updating the quote template, I finally ran into ''exactly'' the scenario I was talking about in regards to quotes within quotes. I need to quote this passage (which includes but is not composed exclusively of dialog) for an article.
{{quote|"Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
:That looks absolutely retarded. The guillemots may have been ugly-- but they were at least ''clear''. And none of the user suggestions (including [[User:Abates]] idea of using multiple parameters for a series of quotes) applies here-- because the text is ''inline''.
:You all suck. Does anyone have any suggestions ''other'' than guillemots to make that look less retarded? Because <nowiki>{{bigquote}}</nowiki> looks even ''worse''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:53, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::[http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp Rule four] suggests it should look like this:
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::although you could also use ‘ and ’ maybe? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:33, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::I have restore the guillemots as an ''optional flag.'' (style=2) The entire ''point'' of using a non-english quotation mark was to avoid conflicts with English quotation marks, so the guillemots seem like a good fallback position when there is a conflict.
{{quote|'Farewell Optimus prime,' [Starscream] whispered to himself. 'Time for Endspark.'|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280|style=2}}
:::This necessitated html and css changes, so some quotes may look funny for the next 24 hours or so until the pages de-cache. (They'll preview properly, and if you save them they'll look right... but left on their own they will re-cache with the updated <nowiki>{{quote}}</nowiki> HTML in short order, so don't bother.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:50, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

::Uh, why not take the easy route. '''Leave out the opening and closing quotation marks when you post''', and the template fills them in. i.e.,
{{quote|Farewell Optimus prime," [Starscream] whispered to himself. "Time for Endspark.|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Ghosts of Yesterday]] p280}}
::There you go, simple and doesn't involve guillemots that don't parse for anyone. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 05:01, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:::What a lovely mix of smart and dumb quotes you have created. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::::Given the use of a monospaced font, it doesn't make sense to use "smart" quotation marks anyway... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:24, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

:I prefer the old style quotes. Nobody can make me use the new ones. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 06:09, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I agree, for all the reasons that SanityOrMadness listed above (especially points 1, 2 and 4)[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 13:44, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
::I completely don't care about this discussion, but I must take the time to point out that it's "guillemet". "Guillemot" is a bird, which is decidedly not relevant to this discussion. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 03:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the normal quotes show up properly in IE6 and a normal quote overlaps an image on http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Protoform so that needs to be fixed or bigquote restored.[[Special:Contributions/81.108.237.26|81.108.237.26]] 11:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
:That's a note, not a quote. The site unfortunately has plenty of problems in IE6, mostly caused by Microsoft's crappy rendering engine. A few of them linger in IE7 too... We really need to come up with a replacement for the messageboxes which doesn't lose the right-hand edge for one thing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

== Redirects while editing ==

Go to [[User:Derik/Sandbox7]], hit edit, then ''preview''. (Hitting shift-refresh might be required to clear out your CSS cache if the effect isn't apparent.)

Links to redirects are highlighted ''in preview mode only''. If it's not highlighted, you know you're pointing to an actual page rather than a redirect. Should probably make it easier to just ''guess'' on a lot of links while still being assured you're picking valid ones.

(Pink is a terrible color to use for this. Any suggestions on how this should be styled? Sparkle-background?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:46, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
:Would making them simply underlined be too subtle? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:15, 12 April 2009 (EDT)
::I worry it's too subtle. What about this?
::If that's too subtle I could break out the sparkling text and have the wiki chant "Septus, Dominus!" every time you mouse over it...-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:30, 12 April 2009 (EDT)

Aw, what's wrong with the pink? I think that one's clear enough. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 00:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Not bad. At least this way it'll be easier to catch the redirects, applying changes when necessary. Although pink... I think it'd be better if the color was a different contrast if it's in the colored section of the templates (as in the episode/comic templates). --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:Abates suggested underlining... since the redirects ''only'' show up that way when in preview mode, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple visual indications. (I don't think the previous/next links on the comicnav, for example, will change color... because they already ''have'' a color set. If you have multiple indicators (color underline, etc...) chances are at least one will remain noticable no matter what happens.
:Does anyone hate the blinking? (It's a firefox-only style.) Normally I HATE anything that blinks because its distracting, but the whole point here is to be able to easily spot the redirects. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:58, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Eh, blinking's fine. Not that of a biggy for me. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

::It's only in the preview and not in the saved pages, so the blinking is ok so far as I'm concerned! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::I think the feature is great? But yes, I hate the blinking. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
This might be a good time to mention this, but just because a link is pink and flashy doesn't necessarily mean it is a mistake needing fixing, right? It is sometimes OK to use redirect links. If you are talking about Goldbug it is OK (and preferable in my opinion) to link to [[Goldbug (G1)]] and let the redirect do the work. I think having it stand out so much would tend to have editors feel the need to clean them all out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::There is potential for that. I agree that sometimes redirects are okay... <nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:44, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

How about "safety orange" or yellow? Those are universal "danger/warning" colors. (And less puke-inducing for me than pink). I don't mind the blinking either, considering that the idea is that the indicator is ''supposed'' to annoy the hell out of you until you change it. (FWIW, the whole thing works fine in Opera 9.63, too.)

As for Starfield's comment, eh, I just don't see it 99% of the time. If I wanted to link to something like Goldbug or Rodimus Prime, I would do <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> or <nowiki>[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]]</nowiki> instead. About the only time I could see it useful is if you were doing linking related to a spoiler (like Longarm Prime vs. Shockwave, for instance), but even then you'd still only need to do it for a month at most. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:15, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:I don't personally see the sense in manually redirecting to Hot Rod when you are talking Rodimus Prime when there is perfectly valid actual redirect to use. You aren't talking about "Hot Rod". It is like word-linking that way, like you are trying to fake out the reader. "Rodimus Prime" is that character's name in that point of the story. I always thought that was the primary purpose of having redirects, and search boxes were secondary.
:Plus there is the added benefit of when you use the "what links here" page, you see what pages link to "Rodimus Prime", which is interesting information that is lost if everything links to "Hot Rod". - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 17:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::Because it's the same character. We say "Spike" or "Daniel", but link to their full name. If someone refers to Bumblebee as a "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" in something, we might use that phrasing in the synopsis, but we'd still link to Bumblebee, not to "giant yellow Volkswagon robot" as a redirect. Etc. It's not a fakeout, it's just using the proper contextual name in the text, but cutting out the middleman for the actual link.
::Redirects can make linking easier for editors who don't know immediately what the proper link might be, so we don't end up with accidental duplicate pages (or as a shorter way to link to something like an oft-used section link), but on the whole I think it's mostly useful for searches.
::In short, while not all redirect linking is something to worry about, per se, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging editors to hunt down the correct linkage, even in those sorts of edge cases. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::"Goldbug" was a character in the comic [[Used Autobots]], the character was ''not'' "Bumblebee". In that way, it is different than using Spike's full name, or even [[Peter Parker]] vs [[Spider-Man]]. I think a link on the [[Used Autobots]] article to <nowiki>[[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]]</nowiki> is incorrect because there was no "Bumblebee" in the story. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 18:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::And yet, Bumblebee and Goldbug don't have separate articles, because we treat them as being the same character. *shrugs a little* I don't ''care'' either way, really, and wouldn't consider it worth worrying about if someone linked to Goldbug, I just don't see that as more correct. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:47, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Bumblebee/Goldbug is the same character. That is ''why'' I think it is OK to link to "Goldbug", even more correct to do so when you are talking about Goldbug. "Goldbug" is not a nickname for "Bumblebee", Goldbug is that character, at that point in the story. The article could be named "Goldbug (G1)" with Bumblebee redirecting to it or "Bumblebee/Goldbug", but for our, somewhat arbitrary, naming rules. I don't disagree with the naming rules, but just because the article is called "Bumblebee" doesn't mean that that always linking to "Bumblebee" is correct. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:00, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::And yet, even if you link to Goldbug, when you click on the link, you still end up at a page titled "Bumblebee (G1)". Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference? (Especially since the intro mentions the Goldbug change right at the top anyway.) It just seems like a difference that makes no difference to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yes, when you link to Goldbug, you end up at the right spot, so why the big push to not link to Goldbug when you are talking about Goldbug? And yes, in some way I like seeing "redirected from", it lets me know that Goldbug is just as correct but the title is called "Bumblebee" out of convenience. And don't forget about the "What links here" feature. It is a little useful being able to sort out the Goldbug references. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Someone requested I link-fix a bunch of minor variants of Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime ot all point to "Hot Rod (G1)". Instead I split them, pointing to "Hot Rod (G1)" and "Rodimus Prime (G1)" as appropriate-- in case we one day decide to split the articles like we do Megatron/Galvatron.
::::::The same principle applies. A split is ''unlikely'', but this way if we ''do'' split the articles, all the links are already pointing to the appropriate destination, instead of having to sort through 500+ incoming links ''by hand'' (that's abotu the number Hot Rod has...) to figure out which need to go where. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

::::::::''Is the little "redirected from" note really that crucial a difference?''
::::::::For me, yes, it kinda is. It lets me know that the powers-that-be have decided that "Goldbug" is heavily subordinate to the character of Bumblebee, that they are well and truly one and the same, that there's not some other Goldbug article out there that I'm missing. That in itself is a significant bit of information, even before I've started reading the text. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 20:09, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

I think that the "What Links Here" issue is a fair point. But IMHO if you need the little "redirected from" note to tell you're in the right place instead of just by reading the intro, you're either lazy or the intro needs rewriting. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:14, 22 April 2009 (EDT) 
Edit: Realized I should mention that I'm liking the blinky thingy so far... it used to be annoying having to click through every new link I was adding to make sure it was the proper direct link instead of a redirect. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
:We should have one standard for linking or not linking to redirect pages. I much prefer being able to link to redirect pages and not get reverted, but I would go along with the other way if that is the standard. I started a draft proposal for a standard to be added to the style guide at my [[User:Starfield/Redirect linking|sandbox]]. Please feel free to comment or edit it or add reasons for/against. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 10:51, 8 May 2009 (EDT)

==Franchise identifier consistency==
At the moment, we have 34 "G1" articles with an identifier of a specific Japanese sub-franchise to distinguish them from articles on usually Western/G1 material. We also have about 9 "G1" articles who use a different kind of identifier, on basis that the Japanese continuities are G1. 
This already led to a bit of moving around with the Grandus article between (G1) and (ROC) when the Animated guy was introduced. To prevent that happening with the Dai Atlas, Sky Garry and possibly Cancer articles, I'd like to have the community make a decision on how to deal with the (G1) identifier vs the (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), (Zone), (ROC) and (OC) identifiers vs whatever else can be/is used as identifier. 
My preference would be to use the Japanese sub-franchise identifiers. Simple and in line with the whole "from the (Japanese franchise) portion of the G1 continuity" on top of those pages. For convenience, here's a list of the moves it would mean:
*Sandstorm (Autobot) -> Sandstorm (G1) (Note: we have a SG Sandstorm now, so (Autobot) it can't stay anyway.)
*Sandstorm (Decepticon) -> Sandstorm (OC)
*Falcon (Predator) -> Falcon (G1)
*Falcon (Micromaster) -> Falcon (OC)
*Ricochet (G1 Autobot) -> Ricochet (Headmasters)
*Metrotitan (G1) -> Metrotitan (Zone)
*Grandus (G1) -> Grandus (ROC)
*Star Saber (G1) -> Star Saber (Victory)
*Joe (Micromaster) -> Joe (ROC)
*Circuit (Action Master) -> Circuit (G1)
*Circuit (Micromaster) -> Circuit (OC)
*Convertor (Micromaster) -> Convertor (OC)
*Convertor (Recyclon) -> Convertor (G1), but I'm in favour of leaving this one as (Recyclon) because all other Recyclons with an identifier use (Recyclon).
Thoughts? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:48, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

:Sky Garry etc... all fall under (G1.) Widest possible identifier when there's no conflict.
:This confuses people because we use specific franchises for UT characters... but the UT has SO MUCH name overlap it'd be pointless-- no one would have the (UT) identifier even if it was standard. G1 has little enough name overlap internal to itself we can make (G1) the default.
:So it's inconsistent--but it's at least ''consistently'' inconsistent. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:55, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
::Diver, Planet X, Hydra, maaaaybe Overlord... No, we're not consistently inconsistent either. And now I'm only looking at G1 West vs Japan. With BW, we do seem to be consistent in acknowledging its Japanese sub-franchises in identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 07:20, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

::What's this "widest possible identifier," Derik? Didn't we go through that huge "Swarm (G1)" debate (which seems to have been ''completely lost'' in the Bookworm crash, fantastic) to cement the franchise-of-origin rule forever and ever amen? The only question here is: What counts as a separate franchise? To my mind, ''Zone'' bears about the same relationship to G1 as G2 does. And, as the Swarm debate established, G2 is never ever G1 as far as parentheticals are concerned. The UT example has nothing to do with what you said and everything to do with our one simple rule. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:21, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::...I don't remember anymore. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:31, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::At least remember to curse the name of Bookworm for three to seven generations. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:59, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::Side note: Actually, the bit of the discussion that was on my User Page subpage isn't lost. I just didn't upload it anywhere because we never actually determined a good permanent place to move it to, so I didn't know ''where'' to upload it to. After a quickie Google search, it turns out there's still a good cache file for the Insecticon Swarm talk page, too. Anyhoo. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Hey, whatever you can find and restore, please do. The biggest value of preserving a debate like that is never having to go through it again. I'd say you should re-make your Sandbox and its Talk page exactly as they were before. I don't think a more "permanent" place is necessary; it's an aborted experiment, so it can stay on an "experimental" page. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:11, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm for moving those pages. Except for "OC" since it's based on a bad translation of a Japanese title. 合体大作戦 (''Gattai Daisakusen'') means "Great Combination Operation". Everybody who knows this, including me, just has been too lazy to correct it. (And Derik, the punctuation for a sentence is out of the parentheses. I'm not sure why you consistently make that mistake.) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:54, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::Then maybe this is a good moment to correct it? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 03:55, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Well, problem is that "Operation Combination", as incorrect as it is, is what the majority of English people know it as. And then what to have the disambiguation parentheses as? "(GCO)"? I would prefer to have it as "Gattai Daisakusen", but my opinion of forgoing unofficial translations is decidedly unpopular. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Then it depends on what this wiki cares more about: helping people find information or providing them with the correct information. By what you're saying, I'd say Operation Combination should become a redirect to the correctly named article. And from there, I don't think (OC) is going to be anymore clear on what continuity it represents than (GCO) or (GD). I don't think many will immediately guess "OC" stands for Operation Combination, and that's also not the point of identifiers. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 08:21, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'm in favor of using the Japanese sub-franchise names. I checked Beast Wars and we are using the sub-franchise names for that, (BWII), (BWN) so this would be consistent. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 08:51, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Except as someone (Interrobang?) keeps pointing out-- that's problematic in itself. There was no BWII Toyline. There was a BWII cartoon... and a Beast Wars Toyline. Japan considers all 4 BW series paer of 1 toyline franchise, much like Generation 1. (This argument hasn't received a lot of traction, but I'm bringing it up because it seems relevant.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 10:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::FortMax brought it up at least twice. One could argue that since we focus on fiction, we should base our disambiguation system on it, but I dunno how to reconcile that with [[Cryotek (RID)]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:13, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Or [[Sideways (RID)]]. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:34, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::Sideways at least got a RID bio. All Cryotek gets is a quote. (And what if they have RID fiction with Cryotek in it? RID and BM are in two different continuity families which means we have to split the articles and argharghargh) [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::Disambiguating by fiction has been argued. It doesn't work/help. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::<nowiki>*bump*</nowiki> So, I like Geewunling's proposal. Objections? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::The Wiki calls Headmasters, Beast Wars II, etc. "franchises." I didn't know the weren't until just now. It seems useful enough to do so, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:07, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== Technical question: Firefox and history pages ==

Is anyone else running the latest version of Firefox and having trouble with the history pages? I'm running Firefox 3.0.10 and when I look at, say, the [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Optimus_Primal&limit=500&action=history Optimus Primal history page], Firefox locks up for half a minute while it runs the javasript to hide half of the radio buttons. It does it on two different computers running the same version of Firefox, but I don't have the same problem on Wikipedia or Wikia. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:56, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:Oh wow, that ''was'' a pretty nasty stutter I got when I tried to reproduce your issue. Same version, same results.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:00, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::Ayep, same here. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:02, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::Issue also reproduced on my home PC, which has more get up and go than my workstation, with Firefox 3.5 beta 4.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:34, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::Ditto on my notebook and tower unit. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::...interesting. Why just firefox? (Clearly the 500+ items are an issue here-- but Safari has no problem with 500 items.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:26, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd be curious to know as well. I specifically tried it again with the beta release because it uses a different (and supposedly more efficient) Javascript engine.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:30, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::And why only here and not on Wikipedia? Is there that much of a change in the Javascript between MediaWiki 1.12 and 1.14? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:32, 1 May 2009 (EDT)

Dropped down to Firefox 2...20 there to test, and clicking the radio buttons doesn't take very long, but the page DOES lock up for a while on initial load. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:28, 2 May 2009 (EDT)
:And FF 1.5.10 behaves as-FF2. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:38, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

== Bad images ==

My scanner is a piece o' crap. Is it better to upload dark and grainy pictures with a "badimage" tag or just put up a "picsneeded" tag? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:38, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
:Depends. With recent comic stuff, I think "pics needed" would be better, as there's a good chance that someone else will have the issue (or can find scans, *cough*). I replaced all the Defiance ones, for instance. If you have in mind specific scenes you would have scanned, you can always leave a suggestion in the picsneeded tag or on the talk page.
:On the other hand, for stuff that's old or rare, where it might be a choice between a bad image or never having an image, IMHO a bad image is better than nothing.
:(If you ever replace your scanner, I recommend the Canon MP210. I use it with Irfanview, and god I love the thing. Prints like a charm, too.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:00, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

== New User Template ==

I remember... someone before the crash (FortMax maybe?) suggesting the idea of a template we can stick on the talk pages of new users to welcome them. I rather liked the idea, so I started a mockup idea here: [[User:Jeysie/NewUser]] Any ideas for a pic, info to add/change, etc?

Also, I noticed we don't have a New Users log enabled the way Wikia does... if we do create this sort of thing, having that sort of log would be helpful. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
:We'd need to either upgrade to MediaWiki 1.14 or install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog the extension] to get the new users log. It would be ''very'' useful, I'm thinking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:35, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

== Screencap templates ==

Er... you know we can ''edit'' the text that appears on the file upload screen. Anyone got a list of screencap templates?

(I think you might even be able to set them up for one-click adding.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:37, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:They are all listed at [[Transformers Wiki:Images]], to my knowledge. I added all the ones I knew of.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:42, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
::[[User:Derik/Sandbox7|This]] is what I'm looking at. It's kinda fugy. Anyone else want to take a whack at it? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 11 May 2009 (EDT)

I'm also working at templating the comics images:
*{{tl|MarvelUScover}} (Marvel US G1), {{tl|HMcover}} (Marvel Headmasters mini) and {{tl|MarvelG2cover}} are maxed out.
*I ''think'' I've got all the extant & relevant images for {{tl|MarvelG2interior}} - although I can't absolutely swear to it
*I'm currently working as and when I have the chance on moving the Marvel US G1 interiors and HM interiors to {{tl|MarvelUSinterior}} and {{tl|HMinterior}} from a variety of copyright tags and the absence thereof (including the ones that lost their descriptions in the Bookworm Incident)
Like I say, the covers are maxed out, but there's always the chance that other interiors will be uploaded (Walky's done a few recently), and it would help if they were added too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:58, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Propose a visually compact way of doing so. ;) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:10, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
{|border cellspacing="1" cellpadding="5" width="100%"
|-
!width=50%|General
!width=50%|Comic Cover
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{hastak}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comicinterior}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{comiccover}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{screencap}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUScover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)|(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMcover|(description)|(issue number)|(issue title)|(artist list)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2cover|(description) |(issue number) |(issue title) |(artist list) |(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|-
!width=50%|Screencap
!width=50%|Comic Interior
|-valign="top"
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{titlecard}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{G1cap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of premiere year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{RIDcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BWcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(last digit of year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{BMcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{TFAcap|(imagedescription)|(episode name)|(year originally aired)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|width=50%|
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelUSinterior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|line-art=|pencils=|inks=|colours=[[Nelson Yomtov]]|letters=|help=|year=(last two digits of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{HMinterior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |letters= |help=}}</nowiki></charinsert>
*<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description= |issueno= |storytitle= |pageno= |panelno= |panelnos= |script= |pencils= |inks= |colours= |letters= |help= |year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>
|}
...I don't know about visually compact, exactly, but considering how many image templates we have, I'm not sure "visually compact" is possible... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:06, 11 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, it's something to work on. Unfortunately the '''charinsert''' plugin doesn't have any way to display s short piece of text while inserting a long one.
:There's a rabid wolverine scrabbling around the back of my brain licking carnival pennies... I feel like when he comes down off his ''filth high'' he might have some ideas about Stupid CSS Tricks to make that less loathesome. (Failing that we could do something with Javascript, but it'd be a bitch to update so that's a last choice.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, it's pretty much the opposite... you can stick a description in the tooltip, but the actual text has to be visible. I honestly can't think of any way to do it in pure CSS without messing up the clickability of it.
::I guess we ''could'' just link to the plain vanilla templates with no parameters, but I kind of want to encourage people to be as thorough as possible with their info.
::I think we could also use a way to include a link to each template's page in case one needs to read the instructions. But I had trouble coming up with a way that's brief, clear, and won't get mistaken for the inserto-text link. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:53, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::Addendum: We could go for a fake form with OPTION or a CSS-based drop-down list, but I think those would both need JS. (Admittedly the CSS based drop-down would need less JS, and only for the style, not the functionality.) (Why do I always have extra thoughts right ''after'' hitting the "submit" button?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 01:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:::What about the Boilerplate plugin that was suggested a while back? Would that be more suitable for this sort of thing? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::No, unfortunately... it only works for articles, not on file pages. (At least, if there is a way to get it to work on file pages, I couldn't figure it out.) Although I still think we should give that extension a whirl at some point, it won't help out with this specific thing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 02:07, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
::::My Wolverine stopped tripping long enough to say "<nowiki>{{MarvelG2}}</nowiki>:<charinsert><nowiki>{{MarvelG2interior|description=|issueno=|storytitle=|pageno=|panelno=|panelnos=|script=|pencils=|inks=|colours=|letters=|help=|year=(last digit of publication year)}}</nowiki></charinsert>."
::::He is a filthy, FILTHY beast, and the hackiness of that CSS shames me. (And it's still not ideal code anyway.)
::::I think Javascript is a likely fate here. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:03, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

== Upload Preview ==

Over at [[Template_talk:Screencap#Since_we_got_derailed.|Template talk:Screencap]], Mr. Bates (or possibly Doug-- I can't keep them straight) suggested we look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_scripts/Scripts/Upload_Preview Upload Preview script]-- a pure javascript solution to the lack of previews during image upload (which the MW software doesn't naively support.)

The script is currently available for anyone who has the [[User:Derik/kired tools|kired tools]] plugins installed. Please report your thoughts, and if there are any problems or conflicts. If user response is positive, I'm going to recommend the relevant code be added to the Wiki's common.js file. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:59, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
:It works great - very handy (I was the one who suggested it, BTW) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
::I finally figured out why I have such trouble telling you and Doug apart.
::I'm actually trying to tell "apog," "apog" and "abates" apart under the impression they are ''two'' people. '''No wonder''' I'm confused. -[[User:Deceptitran|Deceptitran]] 12:37, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:::With no reported problems from the ppl running Kired Tools, this plugin has been moved to the common file, and is now loaded for all Wiki users.
:::So if anything unexpected breaks tonight please report it here, since the preview script will be the likely suspect. (But we don't expect it to.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:53, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== (comic issue) vs. (issue) ==

Is there any protest against eliminating (comic issue) as a disambiguation parenthetical? Near as I can tell, it's totally redundant with the shorter, simpler (issue) parenthetical. (again, unless there's a "Child's Play (socioeconomic issue)" article that I'm unaware of...) -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 10:52, 18 May 2009 (EDT)
:No protest here. I was planning on doing it someday. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:58, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== ROTF spoilers from novelizations and other adaptations ==

So, is information from the novelizations off-limits until the movie is in theaters, or what? (If so, we need to protect the hell out of a bunch of pages) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 22:58, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
:It was discussed [[Talk:Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|here]] and decided that no, they are not off limits, but please date the spoiler tags on character pages to a week after the film comes out. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
::I've been stubbing in articles where I feel it's appropriate... but I've also been tailoring my content to avoid major spoilers-- more to have the infrastructure in place and ready to fill in then the movie drops.
::(And realistically speaking, there's going to be a flood of detailed spoilers, including lists of every fatality and major surprise on the 10th-- the film premieres in Japan 18 days before it does here.)
::Incidentally, I don't ''trust'' the tie-in novels. Characters vanish suddenly, details are glossed over or changed... I harbor a suspicion that certain plot details are being kept out of the books-- or at least obscured-- to prevent fans from being 100% certain about anything. The climax of the two movie adaptions I've read so far are ''different'', they have '''noticeably''' divergent outcomes. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:12, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::I do not want '''''any''''' novelization and adaptation spoilers on character pages or other related articles. Stuff from adaptations should stay on their respective articles. Most of my work on the wiki at the moment is updating and maintaining movie articles, so it would be a personal inconvenience to me if I had to avert my eyes every time I come across the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie sections of character articles. Not only that, but there will be people who will wander onto this wiki with the intention of refreshing themselves on the movie or to read prequel stuff leading up to ROTF, but have no intention of reading up on plot points of the movie itself. And, as Derik says, novelizations and adaptations often differ wildly from the final movie script.
:::I think it's more than bloody fair to expect that we only post ROTF-related stuff on the day of the movie's release around the world, not before. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::That'd apply to the British Isles contingent? UK and Ireland are getting general release June 19. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 02:48, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::That's a good question. (I have no opinion, I'm spoiling myself by reading the novel.)
:::::IIRC, back during Animated season 2 we were observing a 1-week moratorium on character-page updates, which more-or-less covered the biggest broadcast markets.
* 10th - Japan premiere
* 24th - US Premiere
* 26th - UK Premiere
:::::Since the period we're talking about is just a 16 day span, I assume the same idea applies-- hold off until the 26th (possibly plus a few days) out of respect for other TF-fans. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:23, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::As Lonegamer ''just said'', it's out here in the UK on the 19th. And the rule for TFA S2 seemed to be that "as soon as it was first aired in English, be it in the UK, US or Canada (all three had 'world premieres in English' at different points), go for it". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I think that the modifier in that situation, though, was the fact that as soon as said Animated episodes had aired in English ''anywhere'', high-quality encodes of them were promptly available to download for anybody anywhere who wanted them, making it all pretty much fair game. Information could be added, and editors would not be left unable to verify that information, as they could download and see the episode themselves. The movie won't have that - US editors simply wont know if what anon IPs add is true or not, because they won't be able to see the movie to verify it and will have to operate on good faith, which is laudible, but we saw how well that worked with the Dubai Animated debalce and "Animated Waspinator". While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:03, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::What Chris said. "Airing in English" was a polite euphemism for "we can see it too." It doesn't apply for a 2-and-a-half hour theatrical movie. American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th, and as far as I'm concerned the wiki should honor that. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:04, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''While I'll be seeing it opening day here in the UK, I know that I, personally, wasn't planning to add anything about it to the wiki until it screened in the US.''
:::::::::''American fans will still be in the dark until the 26th''
:::::::::Can I take it that the UK and US premiere dates above are switched?--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 14:02, 21 May 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::It's now been said '''thrice''' in this thread that the UK/Eire date is the 19th. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]]
:::::::::::Beg your pardon, then. It was late, and I wasn't paying close enough attention.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 13:08, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::Damn Americans think they're the centre of the Universe. If I was President of the US, I'd invade the UK and Ireland to protect American Transfan interests. 14:56, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I read the novel and have this to say: As much detail as is in it, there's no doubt its different. First of all: there's alot more detail so that means some of the slower parts are probably shorter in the movie (novels often do that anyways so no problems there) and also: in one chapter it leads up to fight and then on the very next chapter all of a sudden Devestator appears and is fighting already as if he's been there the whole time (meaning they skipped a chunk of that fight)So as is obvious, there will be differences.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<<not that it matters

==Forgive my attitude but==
what the flying f***! What happened to my account. I made one, I even remember what it looked like. Where is it and why can't I login and my username no longer exsists! What..the..hell. I've not signed in for a long time but I still go here regularly and everything, don't tell me you autodeleted my account! I mean, I’ve been here when it was at Wikia, I moved with you guys here and even made a new account here! Hell, my old accounts on Wikia all got deleted, so please don’t tell me you guys stooped to their level and deleted my account as well! I’ve done nothing wrong, aside from giving the appearance of being inactive because I’ve not logged in within awhile, but so what? What right does that give you to delete my account? (and if by some means it does give you the right to do so, please provide a link proving that)--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]] (or was it 9?)<< not that it matters
:[[Transformers Wiki:Bookworm Crash]]. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:59, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
Thank you. I'll just make a new account then.-sighs- Forgive if I bothered any of you with what I just said.--[[User:Chipmonk328|Chipmonk328]]
::Don't worry, incoherent rage is the '''proper''' response to the Bookworm crash... you're just slowpoking. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:17, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Main page ==

[[Image:Mainpage_analytics-06-05-09.png|thumb]]
I'll just leave this here...

(I'll check in after work and see if anyone has thoughts, I sure do.)

Number are per-individual-link BTW-- so two separate links to the same location have their clickthroughs tallied separately. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:16, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
: In which we learn nobody clicks anything! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:21, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::The numbers on the page ''should'' add up to 100%. It's just that a few links get vastly more traffic than the others so they show up as 0%. That might represent a few hundred clicks-- the Main Page ''is'' our most frequented page. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:12, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::And people are obviously clicking on [[Kup (G1)]] as the page has gained a thousand hits and jumped 30 places in the Popular Pages list in the last week or so. Any idea what time frame the data covers? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::That was pretty much my thought, too. XD Although it is kind of interesting that some of the categories/continuities/series sections seem more popular than others... it's just hard to tell which ones, since the number pop-ups are in weird spots.
::I also notice that the "images" link in the Editing Tips is popular... and that apparently the fake disambiguation links get some clicks. XD Speaking of which, we really should write up some more of those to replace the rotating ones that got lost in the crash... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:26, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I may have sternly directed people to our Images policy page. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:49, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It's the most common thing people get wrong, so it's also our most thorough policy document.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::About 8% of clicks on the main page are to our "anyone can edit" but up top-- which just takes people to anchors within the page. (The Editing tips section and the Holy Grails section, which do not themselves then collect a lot of clicks.)
:::::This leads me to think that people who click on these things do ''not'' get what they want/are expecting. We should look at changing those links somehow.
:::::Another 8 % of clicks on the main page are on the "home" logo in the upper left (which takes you... back to the main page) and the "main page" link in the nav toolbar.
:::::If there's agreement, I'd like to set it so that the "Main Page" link in the navigation on the left is grayed out when you're on the main page, so it's clearer that "you're here." (The link would still be usable, it'd just have this visual indicator.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:10, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::We could simply de-link the "anyone can edit" links... they just seemed like a good way to get people to actually read our policies and what we need. Or maybe we could link that text directly to [[Help:Contents]] and get rid of the "Editing Tips" box altogether?
::::::I agree with the "Main Page" link being disabled when you're actually on the Main Page. It's pretty easy to do via CSS, and you can also change the cursor to be a regular arrow in CSS to further de-emphasize the links and say, "Hey, dude, you're already ''at'' the Main Page."
::::::Although I had actually thought that 8% of clicks was to the Recent Changes page, which would have made more sense to me. The oddness of where the stat boxes are in relation to the actual page links does make it hard to analyze. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::AS FAR AS I CAN TELL (which in a few cases - the continuities box especially - is less than 100%), these are all the numbers >1.0%:
:::::::*Logo (goes to Main Page): 4.0%
:::::::*"Navigation" sidebar:
:::::::**Main Page link in sidebar: 4.0%
:::::::**Recent changes: 5.3%
:::::::*Fake disambig:
:::::::**"anyone can edit" (goes to "editing-tips" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::**"add to" (goes to "holy-grails" subpage): 4.0%
:::::::*Categories:
:::::::**Characters: 1.8%
:::::::*Continuities:
:::::::**Live-action film: 1.4%
:::::::**Full Series Info: 4.0%
:::::::*Also, the cumulative links to the ROTF page appear to be >1%, even if no individual link is.
:::::::Thoughts on that... firstly, the links TO the main page ON the main page need to be nerfed. Not greyed out, killed. The logo can be just a logo, and the main page link can be replaced or removed. Secondly, there is no way in hell we should delink the stuff in the fake disambig, but redirecting to other places may be a better idea - take the "editing tips" box and turn it into a full page, linked from there (And from the ET box). Not quite so sure on "add to" - a list of stubs that we want filled out, perhaps? The "Holy Grails" box is too specific for 99.9% of potential editors, I expect. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:32, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Useful Extensions ==

Now that we have a working server again and more control over the techie side of things, I wonder if we should start up a list of extensions to install that might be useful.

My own picks:

*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newuserlog Extension:Newuserlog] to keep track of new users so we can give them a [[User:Jeysie/NewUser|friendly greeting]]. As opposed to our current status of new people not usually getting much of a "greeting" unless they screw up. :>
*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MultiBoilerplate Extension:MultiBoilerplate] to provide a drop-down menu of skeleton codes for new pages. I find this ''incredibly'' useful on my own wiki for being able to easily keep different types of pages all laid out the same, by inserting full page structures into new pages so you can then just fill in the information. For example, [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Template:D20RulesPlayercharacterpage here's one structure page] I use to give an idea of the sort of code you can inset.

:Mine:
:*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Title_Blacklist Extension:Title Blacklist] blocks creation of pages depending on a regular expression.

:I will note that Newuserlog is built into MediaWiki 1.14.0, but we haven't discussed upgrading the software yet... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:25, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

::Honestly, those "friendly greetings" drive me spare. I'd really rather not have them.
::Suggestions:
::*[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself Extension:KeepYourHandsToYourself] (prevents users or anons editing User:* pages other than their own.) [Beta] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:47, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I'd be fine with blocking anons-- but I ''have'' been known to reach out and tweak someone's user page from time to time.
:::(Not that we've really had a problem with either.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::Why do they drive you spare? Giving new users a heads-up regards our policies ''before'' we have to slap a nastygram user notice on their page seems like a good idea to me. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They drive me spare getting them while doing IP-edits. And chances are you'll get them again, and again, and again... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:02, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Oh! No, no, no. I didn't mean doing them automatically on all new users, I was thinking, like, putting the greeting ''manually'' only for new ''registered'' users. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:09, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

==Rise of the Chevy Autobots==
Allright, I finally got around to putting this up. This is everything I have saved from the "Rise of the Chevy Autobots" online game - flash files, HTML, etc. It comes to nearly 60mb.

[http://www.obscuretf.com/ChevyAutobotGame.zip Chevy Autobots]

Unfortunately, I am most likely missing the last week or two of the story, but I figure it's better than nothing. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 14:18, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
:Monzo- I luvers you...
:And AFIK the defeat of Mainframe himself never got a news update-- the epilogue was provided by the game itself. So you ''should'' have the most up to date version.
:Uh, I suppose there might have been a "he's weakening, keep at it" update, but that's pretty content-null. It'd be nice to know the date Mainframe went down... but again, it looks like you've got 99% of everything preserved here. :)~
:And now we can properly cite the Chevy Autobots being allspark mutations! (Or at least a result of Chevy's experimentation with Energon as an alternative fuel source.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

== Possible Relicensing? ==

So, Wikipedia is moving from the GFDL to a Creative Commons license, which will make it incompatible with most Wikia sites from then on. (Presumably; I haven't heard if Wikia at large or any of its individual wikis--like the old Transformers one-- are making the same transition.) Should TFWiki consider switching, too? Pretty much everyone outside the Wikipedia/Wikia family goes with CC, which is a lot simpler in a lot of ways than the GFDL.

[[wikipedia:GFDL#Compatibility with CC-BY-SA|Apparently, GFDL-licensed wikis can only make the change before August 1, 2009]]. And unlike them, we probably wouldn't have to worry about having added any content from non-wiki GFDL-licensed things, at least. And it would completely eliminate legal copying/pasting between this wiki and its rival. --[[User:Fleb|Fleb]] 17:47, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:I would support this, at least tentatively. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:16, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
::On the surface, at least, it looks like a good move. It keeps the same free-info spirit, but is incompatible with Wikia's license ''and'' any info-quoting or copying from us further requires attributing the wiki, if I'm reading it right. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:18, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hmm. I thought about bringing this Creative Commons thing up awhile back, but I'm not Legal Smarts (S-M-R-T) enough to fully understand it. Perhaps our staff should comment on this? The final decision is probably theirs. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I don't really have much to say, other than it sounds like a good idea. If nothing else, the legal terms of the GFDL are nightmarish at best and I'd be happy to never think of them again. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 14:02, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
IANAL, but [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update based on Wikimedia's page,] it ''looks'' like "relicensing" the site is just a matter of changing all the text that mentions "GFDL" now. The one requirement is that we're using [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-1.3.html version 1.3.] [[Transformers Wiki:Copyrights]] doesn't specify a version, and neither does the edit page or the footer, so that's probably okay. (''[[Transformers Wiki:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License|If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation.]]'') --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 18:30, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One thing that's confusing me, looking again at that - Wikipedia's new licensing structure seems confusing in that all non-imported-under-a-CC-licence content will still be dual-licensed under the GDFL. If we adopted that, Wikia could import from us, but we couldn't import from Wikia. CAN the GDFL be dropped completely? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:31, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, definitely. The dual-licensing is just ''Wikipedia's'' own, weird thing to keep the Free Software Foundation loyalists from bitching and Leaving Forever. (Those CC-only things should actually "poison" individual pages so they're not truly GFDL-licensable anymore without reverting, so they'll probably eventually drop it completely.) --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Which CC license would we use? Seems like [[wikipedia:Creative_Commons_licenses#Original_licenses|from the Wikipedia CC page]] that a by-nc-nd license would be what we're after? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:16, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:It would be [[wikipedia:Share-alike|CC-by-sa]]. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:23, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks like a good idea to me. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Definitely By-SA -- If we do a No-Derivatives, how would we even edit any of our own pages? --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 22:05, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Seems I misunderstood how the licensing applied. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:44, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

===ARE we going to relicence?===
So, are we going to do it, is it being investigated, or are we going to just leave it until the grace period expires and we have to stick with the GDFL after all? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:09, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I vote we do it. Anyone else? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
::It seems to be a less onerous license, and one which we have a window of opportunity to switch to. I'd say go for it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:18, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::+1 vote in favor of relicensing. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:29, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::: -1, I'm against it unless we find a copyright lawyer. The GFDL provides no provisions against re-use in commercial projects. While I'm all for 'Hasbro' poking around on this wiki and recycling bios/names/ideas/what-have-you, if someone else decides to redistribute this content for commercial purposes (for example, selling an iPhone/Android app that's basically an offline cache of the wiki,) I want to make sure that we're not on the hook for it. I get that Hasbro is turning a gleefully blind eye to us as long as we're just trying to stay alive as a volunteer effort, but if we end up attached to someone's attempt to profit off of our work, which is in itself a derivative work of at least a dozen various IP holders, the resulting storm of litigation would shut us down within hours. (And no, I am in fact the 'least' qualified person around to give advice on this situation. I'm just a paranoid freak.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:07, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::...I have no idea what you just said. Literally. It seems vaguely like you're trying to argue against using the GDFL on the grounds that someone could resell the wiki content. But we're ALREADY using the GDFL and talking about '''changing''' to a [[Wikipedia:Creative Commons licenses|Creative Commons licence]] (Which includes the option for a -nc flag, although no-one here has proposed that as yet that I can see - and given that we carry ads, we may not be allowed to use a -nc flag. That's one I'd like a lawyer's opinion on).
:::::[And could you login just to prove that's you? You posted that as an anon] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:45, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, under our current GDFL license, the content of this wiki can '''already''' be sold. Staying with the GDFL won't fix that.
::::::On that note, I will say I'd actually prefer to change to the non-commercial version of the Share-Alike CC license myself, but I had gotten the feeling that there was that only one specific CC license you could switch to. Was I mistaken on that? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:08, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::They specifically mention CC-BY-SA 3.0, so you're probably right about -nc not being an option, I suppose. For the avoidance of doubt, the GDFL section on relicensing follows in its' own section, [http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html the GDFL as a whole is here], a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ summary of CC-BY-SA 3.0 is here] and the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode full CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence is here] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:25, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Hrm. I guess that's something we should ask... someone? Who's in charge of all this wiki relicensing as a whole?
::::::::But for what it's worth, we could use an -nc flag despite the ads, if it's allowed:
::::::::{{quote|'''Can I still make money from a work I make available under a Creative Commons licenses?'''

Absolutely. Firstly, because our licenses are non-exclusive which means you are not tied down to only make a piece of your content available under a Creative Commons license; you can also enter into other revenue-generating licenses in relation to your work. One of our central goals is to encourage people to experiment with new ways to promote and market their work.

Secondly, the noncommercial license option is an inventive tool designed to allow people to maximize the distribution of their works while keeping control of the commercial aspects of their copyright. To make one thing clear that is sometimes misunderstood: the "noncommercial use" condition applies only to others who use your work, not to you (the licensor). So if you choose to license your work under a Creative Commons license that includes the “noncommercial use” option, you impose the ”noncommercial” condition on the users (licensees). However, you, the creator of the work and/or licensor, may at any time decide to use it commercially. People who want to copy or adapt your work, "primarily for monetary compensation or financial gain" must get your separate permission first.|[http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_still_make_money_from_a_work_I_make_available_under_a_Creative_Commons_licenses.3F Creative Commons FAQ]}}
::::::::Of course, we obviously actually can't outright sell the work ourselves either, but that answer does seem to mean that, even if showing ads technically counts as "commercial use", we can still use an NC license. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:31, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Well, if the GDFL only allows us to go to CC-BY-SA3, and not CC-BY-SA-NC, it's kind of a moot point. Which is annoying, since the -nc version DEFINITELY seems more desirable, since it would absolutely lock Wikia out from copying us if true) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::I decided to send off the following e-mail to the GDFL folks' contact e-mail:
::::::::::{{quote|Greetings. I'm one of the editors on a Mediawiki-based wiki dedicated to the Transformers franchise: http://tfwiki.net/

We are currently discussing the prospect of also switching from the GDFL to the CC-BY-SA3. However, we were wondering if the CC-BY-SA3 is truly the *only* BY-SA that can be switched to, or if CC-BY-NC-SA3 would also be possible. Since our wiki is obviously based off writing about copyrighted material, it would help us greatly in remaining on the franchise's parent company's good side if we could ensure that our content cannot be sold.

Your answer on this would be much appreciated.

Signed, 
Liz Calkins}}
::::::::::With any luck I'll get an answer I can pass along. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:55, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

===GDFL section 11, relicensing===
'''11. RELICENSING'''

"Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (or "MMC Site") means any World Wide Web server that publishes copyrightable works and also provides prominent facilities for anybody to edit those works. A public wiki that anybody can edit is an example of such a server. A "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration" (or "MMC") contained in the site means any set of copyrightable works thus published on the MMC site.

"CC-BY-SA" means the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 license published by Creative Commons Corporation, a not-for-profit corporation with a principal place of business in San Francisco, California, as well as future copyleft versions of that license published by that same organization.

"Incorporate" means to publish or republish a Document, in whole or in part, as part of another Document.

An MMC is "eligible for relicensing" if it is licensed under this License, and if all works that were first published under this License somewhere other than this MMC, and subsequently incorporated in whole or in part into the MMC, (1) had no cover texts or invariant sections, and (2) were thus incorporated prior to November 1, 2008.

The operator of an MMC Site may republish an MMC contained in the site under CC-BY-SA on the same site at any time before August 1, 2009, provided the MMC is eligible for relicensing.

===Derik causes problems===
What is the actual difference between these liscences? Is there a breakdown somewhere?

The explanations I hear online are "They're exactly the same, only CC-BY-SA is worded clearer!"

Is there a more substantial difference?

Regardless, I'm going to suggest TFWiki, in addition to whatever base license we adopt, add a (God help me) '''signing statement''' making clear that our legal ability ''to'' license the content on this wiki extends ''only'' to our own value-added contributions, and not the content which is copywritten by Hasbro.

A '''fundamental''' problem with the GFDL (originally a license intended for creating collaborative ''software documentation'') and CC-SA (a license for artists to release their work while still retaining some control of ''how'' it is used) is that '''both''' licenses operate under the assumption that the people collaborating to produce this content '''own''' the content they're uploading. If they produced it, they have the right to give ''other'' people the right to use it.
[[Image:Second generation reuser.jpg|thumb|250px]]
...we didn't produce Transformers. We don't have the right to distribute Screencaps-- '''our use''' of those screencaps falls under "fair use," anyone wishing to re-use screencaps posted on this wiki is not '''granted the use of them''' via our ''release'' of the screencaps... they are claiming fair use from Hasbro again. Even our ''article text content'' is a melange of "we can claim ownership" and "derived fromHasbro to such an extent that we cannot claim ownership over it" (moreso than Memory Alpha, because for many obscure characters, their entire bio is nothing but a rephrasing of their tech-spec. The amount of 'value added' work done by us in relation to hasbro's copyright on the original text is very low.)

And that's even '''separate''' from McFeely's concern that someone could create an "offline TFWiki" as an iPhone app-- citing their right to use our content under GFDL-- and then never paying Hasbro a dime. In that scenario-- we are the 'leak' for Hasbro's lawyers to plug by shutting us down. Adopting a "NC" (non-commercial use only) license just means they couldn't ''charge'' for it... they could still create a ''free'' downloadable or java app (Transformer tech-spec viewers are fairly popular as mobile downloads, apparently) with the same result. Besides-- a NC license would ''technically'' mean that Hasbro's own people couldn't use the Wiki as a resource anymore. (At least, under sufficiently draconian lawyers, like Disney's.)

Equally undesirable, IMO, is someone who '''has''' a TF license via Hasbro, like a book company, that might decide to cheap-out on their content and simply re-present wiki articles-- under GFDL from ''us'' for our contributions and fully licensed from ''Hasbro'' for the portion of the content that ''they'' own. I don't fucking '''want''' TF guidebooks cheeping out liek that-- and I'm '''really''' uncomfortable with any part of our user-generated content becoming primary source material. That's how [[Wikipedia:Daken|Daken]] got created!

A way around ''that'' might involve a ''second'' license on our content that's '''dependent''' on a commercial producer having the TF license. (This sounds murky, but I think it can make sense...)

...

<nowiki>*scrolls up*</nowiki> Um, wow. That's a lot of text.

Basically what I'm saying is;
# As long as we're updating our license, I think we should take the time to make it the '''right''' license, one that;
##Allows users to freely contribute.
##Allows ''creators'' to freely play.
##Reflect that a good deal of our content (particularly graphics) is not owned by us.
##Respects Hasbro's legal and business needs vis-a-vis copyright.
##Recognizes that TFWiki ''is'' used as a resource for commercial products. (Share-and-share-alike is good, but it can have some ''bad'' consequences on 'child' derived works, rendering them uncopyrightable.)
##Attempt to make sure we're not the '''only''' resourced used by those products

No existing license (that I'm aware of) actually reflects the special needs of media fandom wikis. and the degree of disconnect isn't small-- it's legally significant, and it inhibits our ability to control what happens to our content to protect both our own interests and those of Hasbro.

I think we can do that without breaking our brains ''or'' hiring a lawyer-- but it requires acting with intention. Like-- forming an exploratory committee seriously peck the problem apart. The upshot might be... well... considerable. We're hardly the ''only'' wiki in this position, and taking the hammer out a standard approach stands a decent chance of being adopted elsewhere. (That's kinda meta-benefit to TFWiki, but it's certainly reputation-building. In terms of "moral authority" a lot of people seem to feel like TFWiki is the place that did things ''right''; our approach to WP:NPOV, leaving Wikia, stance on spoilers, our protective attitude towards the brand, etc... at least I keep running into references to TFWiki in the ''weirdest'' places, and they're almost always complimentary in terms ''not'' just related to our content.)

Is anyone ''else'' with an interest in (or at least tolerance for) copyright law interested in doing this '''right'''? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense. It's the difference between being able to look up that Optimus Prime did some obscure thing in a certain episode, and quoting the wiki article for Optimus Prime verbatim.
:Plus, AFAIK, all CC licenses allow for the licensees to make individual exceptions, meaning that even if Hasbro ''did'' want to verbatim print some part of the wiki for some reason, we could make an exception for them to do so.
:And personally I don't see any big deal with someone giving copies of the wiki away as a free resource, at least in a legal sense, seeing as how the wiki is basically a free guide to Transformers. As long as we're given credit and it's made clear that it's not in any way an official product, it's exactly the same practical result as someone surfing to the wiki itself on their iPhone browser or whatever, just made more convenient. (The only difference is that we don't get the pageviews for ad revenue if people read our material elsewhere, but that's our problem to deal with, not Hasbro's.)
:Having said all that, a license that allows for protections on things like screenshots and scans would be useful.
:However, that's not something that could be handled before August, I don't think. Personally I'd rather change to some sort of CC license now as an interim measure, and then change again later down the road if a better CC license or other license becomes available.
:Otherwise, we may end up locked into a GDFL license we can't change away from anyway, even if we do later come up with something better. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::''Actually, there's no reason whatsoever that Hasbro couldn't use the wiki as a resource under a NC license. They just wouldn't be able to sell any of the exact content of the wiki, if that makes sense.''
:::I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that CC-NC also stipulates that any ''derived'' work must also be CC-NC. So if they rewrite any portion of our content-- or re-create a diagram we created-- that's a derived work they can't include in a comercial product. And since the license actually says that any CC-NC ''element'' caused the entire ''resulting work'' to be CC-NC, that means that if (for example) IDW did photomanip work on a CC-NC image from here and threw it in as an image on a monitor for ''Spotlight: Brunt''-- the entirely of ''Spotlight: Brunt'' would fall out of copyright. Anyone could copy it, alter it, and legally distribute copies of it.
:::What are the odds of a singe identifiable sentence lifted from the wiki ever making it into a TF guidebook by accident? If so-- the entire book is now CC-NC, legal to pirate.
:::At least, that's my ''understanding'' of how CC-NC works-- and I ended up having to '''read''' the entire damn license for a software thing I was working on two years ago that used a PHP-library that was CC-NC. It's the '''same''' license, right? It's not like CC-NC is "made for wikis," it covers a ''wide range'' of products. Am I wrong on this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Clarification-- I'm actually referring to CC-SA3 in the previous section, not CC-NC. but since we're considering ''moving'' to a license that '''would be''' SA3, the scenario still stands.
::::[http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/us/ It's right there in plain english]. <tt>If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.</tt> If any of our content leaked into an official product, that product would suddenly be creative-commons and freely distribuitable.
::::...why do you think the "free information" people have been braying for the license change? This is a stealth copyright-subversion scheme. as accidental direct lifts from Wikipedia (or any product derived from wikipedia content) slip into comercial products, they will become '''legally contaminated''', and then contaminate anything that uses content FROM them. It's ''better'' than the Public Domain, because derived works based on the public domain are copyrightable... derived works based on CC-SA are ''not'', they are inherently "free." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Well, once again, the [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ license outright states] that "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder." So again, even if Hasbro or another licensee wanted to sell any wiki-based work, we could just waive the Share-Alike and Non-Commercial aspects for them alone. So that's not a problem/issue.
:::::And again, I'd rather just make the switch now, then we can always switch again if we find something better down the road. Rather than trying to be hasty about it to fit it in before August, so we don't get locked into the GFDL for good.
:::::Further, it's not like we don't already have all of the potential problems you state under our current license anyway. Doesn't the GDFL already require you to release any derivative material under the GDFL license too? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::"The Copyright holder" in this case is every person who has ever edited an article on this wiki, or Wikia before we moved.
:::::::Did you collect thousands of legal proxies that allow you to speak for them? ''You'' can't just legally decide to 'wave a copyright,' nor can a steering committee. The copyright has to be waived by the ''holder''.
:::::::And what the waiver notice is really saying is "you can shortform a separate license understanding independent of this liscence as long as you deal directly with the person who owns the copyright on the work." That's ''always'' true, it's not a CC thing. You'd have to get a list of every person who's ever edited an article and get them all to agree to waive their rights for Hasbro, which you so casually hand-wave over.
:::::::Maybe a better question-- if the primary reason to switch licenses is this "SAS" clause tyhat infects all derived work-- and we want to ''exempt'' Hasbro from that clause... why are we even switching?
:::::::I'm not even against switching licenses... I just think it should be a ''thought out'' decision, not a casual one. '''This''' discussion has basically consisted of ''"Everyone is switching, it's a good idea u wanna?" "LOL, sure why not!"''
:::::::There are actual not-irrelevant legal ramifications of this decision-- and I'm not sure it's in our best interests ''or'' Hasbro's best interests to do this. Can we actually ''look'' at what we're signing off on before putting it to an up-and-down vote? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my end of the discussion is more like, "We only have a month and a half to make the decision, the CC switch looks like it wouldn't add any problems that don't already exist under the GDFL, it might give us some ''benefits'' that don't already exist under the GDFL, and the CC seems to be less binding anyway, so we can switch easier down the road."
::::::::Furthermore, considering how we're already going to be able to switch to the new license without requiring everyone's sign-off anyway, I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.
::::::::Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright. All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright.
::::::::So, hey, if someone here can get a lawyer to knock out a good alternative in a month and a half, go for it. Otherwise, seeing as how '''the GDFL we're under already ''has'' all the problems you're complaining about''', I see no reason that switching would at least put us any worse off than we are already. All of your alleged problems either already exist anyway under the current GFDL license, or aren't actually problems. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:12, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::''I don't see why we can't just put the waiver for Hasbro and their licensees into the switch from the get-go.''
:::::::::Because then you're committing a legal offense against both the copyright holders ''and'' the FSF? That's actually worse than your last suggestion.
:::::::::I'd be a '''lot''' more confident in your judgment about the legal ramifications of the switch if you didn't keep suggesting things that were illegal. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:48, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::"Then on top of that, if you want to get absolutely technical, since Hasbro and their licensees are the copyright holders for all this stuff to begin with, they get an automatic waver on our derivative work anyway, because ''we don't have the legal right to lock them out of their own copyright.'' All we can do is lock non-Hasbro-licensees out of our take on Hasbro's copyright."
::::::::::As in, I already know that part, thanks.
::::::::::As for the FSF part, I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.
::::::::::I'd be a lot more interested in your rebuttals if you sounded like you read not only what I already wrote, but what the legal articles themselves say. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:58, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::In any case, like I said, if someone here can afford to ask a lawyer about this, I've got no objections to that. But I have to admit you haven't said how staying with the GFDL solves any of your concerns, seeing as how AFAIK said concerns all exist under our current GDFL too. *shrug* --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:03, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::''I'm not sure how it's a legal offense against the FSF to insitute a waiver during the switch that the ''new license already explicitly allows as being possible''.''
:::::::::::# You don't have the legal right to act as the proxy of everyone who's edited this wiki by declaring a waiver in any circumstance.
:::::::::::# You intend to muddy those legal waters by making the acceptance of this waiver a rider on the license switchover-- the FSF debated for almost a ''year'' before finally deciding the two liscences were close enough to make the switch-- '''they''' have the legal right to determine what new licensing is and is not permissible under GFDL. That's like taking a EULA for a piece of software, agreeing to it, then declaring, "And now I'm going to make unilateral revisions to it without the other side of this contract's knowledge or agreement-- but they're totally legally binding and I can grant myself extra rights with them." And that's even ''aside'' from making them an an accessory of your unlawful claim of proxy over the thousands of editors who've created content. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:16, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::#We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
::::::::::::#The whole point is moot anyway, because way I see it, we ''have'' to effectively give Hasbro a waiver on using anything on this wiki in their own commercial copyright, because we don't have any copyright powers over their content anyway. I don't see how we could legally force Hasbro to have no control over their own copyright to begin with, just because we wrote about it under a share-alike license, because we never had the copyrights to begin with! And that exact same problem already exists under the GFDL we're already under. Again, the only right we have at all is to keep non-Hasbro-licensees from using our content in certain ways.
::::::::::::#In short, you're the one being silly by making the claim we have the right to ever lock Hasbro out of their own copyright to begin with. You can't be unlawful by having people give up rights they don't actually have anyway. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:54, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::''We're already making a claim of proxy over the editors by being able to switch the license to begin with.
:::::::::::::No, you're not. All of those original users granted you the right to make a ''specific'' proxy call (switch from GFDL 1.3 to CC-BY-SA3 '''only''') under an obscure clause in GFDL. That right was granted every time an edit was made, and has lain dormant ever since. And relicensing ''not'' explicitly made provision for under an updated GFDL would require you to ''contact'' all those users and get them to sign off on it. This specific license change ''only'' was pre-approoved. It's like checking the "Organ doner, eyes" tab on your driver's license. You granted themt he right to take your eyes ''if the opportunity came up''. When you show up in an operating room brain dead, they can't just arbitrarily decide to take your liver too without the permission of your legal custodian. (In this metaphor, that would be "going back to the original editors or their Power of Attorney heir and asking them to sign off on it.")
:::::::::::::STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY DAMN LIVER! I SWEAR, EVERY DAY... THAT DAMN BIRD! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::You still have yet to explain how any license we apply can possibly block out Hasbro from having the rights to their own copyright. Therefore, yet again, the whole point is moot, because Hasbro would already technically exempt from the SA (& NC) parts of the license anyway no matter what we try to claim. Yet again, you can't take away rights from our editors that they never had to begin with.
::::::::::::::The best you can possibly do is state that our claim of being under the GFDL is already invalid anyway, because we don't have the right to ever force Hasbro to release their own copyrighted material under the same GFDL license if they use our writings. In which case we might as well just ignore this whole deal that thus doesn't apply to us anyway, and switch to whatever Memory Alpha does. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 22:47, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::We would not be locking Hasbro out of their own copyrights-- Hasbro would be at risk to involuntarily surrender many of their rights. That's a different thing.
:::::::::::::::Devaluation of the Transformers license? That too. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Why would Hasbro surrender any of its rights? We have the right to say how our content is used, but we don't have any right to say how Hasbro gets to use its own copyrighted material, whether they use our writings or not. You don't get to claim copyright over something just by writing about it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:19, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::If you don't grasp the concept that we have some copyright claim over our own article text here (the starting point) I don't really feel like going another round explaining everythign that follows ''after'' that to you, because it's a non-starter. There's no point in laying out the problems involved if you're stuck on the givens at the starting point.
:::::::::::::::::Refer to my previous example with ''Spotlight: Brunt'' for why SA3 would be undesirable for IDW. See how that legal ambiguity makes the TF License (which IDW pays an annual fee for) worth less money. Listen as I tell you that the people pushing for this license change ''intend'' that legal ambiguity because they have an axe to grind against copyright, and they intend to cause so much ''suffering'' (and hopefully few landmark legal cases) that copyright law gets reformed.
:::::::::::::::::That's great. I think copyright law needs reform. But their method for doing so involves creating '''massive legal headaches''' for vast numbers of people. I'd prefer TFWiki and Hasbro ''not'' be among those numbers of people. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:04, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::And, as beautifully Machiavellian as Derik's contamination scenario is, it still wouldn't negate "fair use" anyway in the case of such a small "lift". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::But this isn't ''about'' fair use. It's about people who've read Lawrence Lessig's book and attended Disinfocon having a pissing contest and trying to upend how Copyright works.
:::::::See how casually you said it? Suddenly instead of ''us'' claiming fair use use of Hasbro's intellectual property-- Hasbro is having to claim fair use of ''our'' property. And fair use is never ''proven'' until it's challenged-- so ''any'' instance of "fair use" derived work ''massively'' weakens Hasbro's copyright on their own material-- because anyone ''wanting'' to claim their work is now SA3 is is now free to do so... and the burden is shifted onto ''Hasbro'' to hire lawyers and prove it's ''not''.
:::::::That kind of mad-cow subversion tactics would normally make me grin like an idiot-- but just because I approve of malotov-wielding free-culturists are planning the legal equivalent of the World Bank Protests '''doesn't mean I want to be stuck in the middle of it.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:56, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:#Derik causing problems? ''Never...'' :p
:#'''It's a binary choice - the GDFL3 licence ONLY allows us to change to CC-BY-SA3 and THEN ONLY if we do it before the 1st of August, 2009.''' The only way we could change in any other direction would be to track down every user who's ever contributed and either get them to relicense their contributions or excise their contributions and derivatives thereof from the wiki. Given that, thanks to Mr Bookworm, we don't even HAVE a complete list of contributors...
:#I think you're getting Daken mixed up with Erista (thank you Eric J. Moreels...) there
:#McFly, not McFeely.
:#The main point is number 2 - we don't have the freedom to custom-design a licence. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:51, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Sure we do! It just has to be a license that doesn't violate any of the GFDL or CC-BY-SA3 requirements! That's not hard, I do object-oriented programming! Same basic principle!
:::(In all seriousness, from a legal standpoint, you'd probably set up sort of "type-coercion comfort trap", which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory. I'd want to get a lawyer to ''check'' it-- I know a few-- but I'm fairly sure you ''could'' do it, legally.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:37, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm a tad confused about what you're saying - the GDFL and the CC-BY-SA are both designed to ''limit restrictions'' on the (re)use of work. If you're ''adding more restrictions'' than either specifies (i.e., if I licence my work to you under the condition that you must give a copy to anyone who fulfils condition X, and must not give a copy to anyone who ''doesn't''; you can't then impose condition Y, which means ''not only that'' you restrict who you give a copy to ''to a subset'' of group X will receive a copy from you, but that ''you DO give copies to'' a subset of group ''Not-X''...), then you're in breach of the basic licence, ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:44, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::You offer s separate license with GFDL+ (or CC+) permission for new content (generated after the date) for specific commercial purposes. On the date of adoption, the two liscences are exactly equal, but as time goes on, the GFDL/CC+ becomes increasingly attractive, because it offers a commercial reuser a ''better'' legal foothold on their own material. You are giving them ''more'' rights to the material, provided they operate according to certain restrictions. They ''could'' always choose to license the content under vanilla GFDL (or whatever,) but that ''gives up'' the increased privileges they have for the post-adoption material.
:::::The beauty is that such a liscence need not differentiate as to ''what'' part of the material is eligible for one liscence but not the other... it's a ''diffuse'' legal benefit over the content that their lawyers would ''force'' them to choose-- but '''we''' are not forcing them to choose; the content remains accessible under GFDL, as the GFDL requires, but we offer incentives of ''increased'' re-usage rights for newer content in exchange for restricted action.
:::::...this isn't going to make any sense without a chart, is it? There are force-gradients involved. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:33, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay Derik, simple basic question - if Creative Commons licences are so set for copyright Armageddon, how come Memory Alpha (one of the biggest wikis on the internets, and one which many ST creatives - including the writers of this year's movie [who also happen to write Transformers movies] - have freely admitted to using) has always been under a CC licence without Viacom/Paramount/CBS imploding? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

:Because Memory Alpha is licensed under <tt>Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.5 Generic license</tt>. Note the absence of the "Share and share alike" clause, which in the source of the Copyright Armageddon I'm ranting about. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:20, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, Derik. Bottom-line it for me. How likely is this to result in Tina Turner forcing me to fight in a cage with a brutally strong man with the mind of a child?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 22:04, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, Tina Turner is signed with Virgin, and so was The Verve, whose "Bitter Sweet Symphony," got the band sued out of existence due to a 3-second sampling they claimed was "fair use," but Mick Jagger felt was a big enough use to be a copyright violation. The courts agreed, and for a 3 second sample, they lost all rights tot he song and Jagger is now listed as the songwriter.
:::So I'd say the odds of Tina Turner smacking you around for not paying attention to this important and non-trivial legal issue involving copyright are in the range of at ''least'' 30-35% if we plow ahead heedlessly. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Okay. Lots of words to catch up on all of a sudden. Glad I sorta-started all this, I guess? 
Going waaay back to Derik's first question: [http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses#Comparison_of_Licenses There is, indeed, a breakdown. In table form.] 
''"which is like a Dan Brown novel written by a lawyer with a minor in game theory"'' I would totally read that. --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 00:13, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Asking for permission to post links==

I'm the current Bureaucrat at [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com Ghostbusters Wiki], and there was interest in placing links to articles on this wiki to Ghostbusters wiki articles, and likewise placing links on Ghostbusters wiki to articles relating to content which has been brought up. I don't know a great deal of your wikis past dealings, other than wikia apparently kept your old wiki's content when you moved. Anyways, the wiki would rather reference to your present wiki than the one currently at wikia. We are hoping you wouldn't mind the links to our characters on pages related to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Race_with_the_Devil Race with the Devil] article. [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/User:Devilmanozzy Devilmanozzy] 02:10, June 8, 2009 (EDT)

:Can you give a few examples of articles on your wiki which would benefit from having links to this site? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::IIRC it's whatshername's assistants-- the ones from the Earthforce story (Running with the Devil?) that Wildman based on the RGB models.
::(I personally have no problem with the links. Though I think this guy added 'em once, misformatted, and they got reverted.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 13:06, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::That wasn't Nozzy but Liberal Noob, while not logged in. I told the original guy to take a step back and mind their P's and Q's before we start crosslinking, especially since it was an anonymous IP at the time. But yeah, he wants to crosslink with Race the Devil and Susan Hoffman.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:43, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Only direct link between the Ghostbusters Cartoon and the G1 Transformers cartoon is [[Frank Welker]] sounded like one of his TF roles when he voiced a ghost from time to time. I a am sorry for my wanton linking and it will not happen again. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 22:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::I meant which pages on the Ghostbusters wiki would benefit from having links on them to our wiki. I'm curious, because I regard myself as reasonably familiar with Ghostbusters, and I can't think offhand of any references to Transformers in it. Perhaps in one of the cartoons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:55, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thanks for the replies on this matter. A good user Liberal Noob had requested that I would more address this, apparently the mod needed to say something and form a partnership in order to have links posted related to one anothers material. To answer the question of what articles would be hyperlinked, I believe he was planning on linking to the animated pages for Peter Venkman, Egon Spengler, and Ray Stantz. Thats what I understand is being requested to being linked to.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 19:42, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::We're not wondering which pages on our wiki would link to your wiki. We were wondering which pages on your wiki would need to link to our wiki. We didn't know there ''were'' any Transformers references in any Ghostbusters media, and thus didn't know you'd need to link to us from your wiki. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::[[Race with the Devil]], [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Starscream's Ghost]], [[Horri-Bull]], and a few others. Links will be on is a article on [http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostbusters_Cameos Ghostbusters Cameos]. Note I believe that the section will be better built soon.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 20:21, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Seems like there's a few other connections in terms of voice actors ([[Tara Strong]], [[Frank Welker]], [[Maurice LaMarche]] etc) as well. I think linking between the two sites is a good idea. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:37, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yeah I had noticed that too as I looked around here the last few days. Never knew how much Ghostbusters and Transformers had in common.[[User:Devilmanozzy|Devilmanozzy]] 23:40, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::While I'm broadly in favour of this, could you maybe change "[[Starscream's Ghost]]" to "[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream's ghost]]" - I understand you want to keep the ghost theme going but the first is a link to an unrelated episode of the cartoon series, rather than the character himself. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 07:02, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::OK Emvee, I fixed the link on the Ghostbusters wiki as you requested. Devilmanozzy, ''[[Star Wars]]'' also has a [[Darth Vader|lot in common]] with ''Transformers''. --[[User:Liberal Noob|Liberal Noob]] 14:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::We know, we got named an official friend of Wookiepedia about a week into the [[Project: Bookworm Crash]]. If we hadn't been scrambling to pick up the pieces, our pages would probably reflect this more. (I assume we'll integrate more when Clone Wars starts up again, since we love to attention-whore ourselves that way.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:56, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::::[http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/dan-akroyd-ghostbusterhero/ Here is] an obscure crossover from [[The Real Effing Deal]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:09, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

== Quick Links? ==

You know, now that I think about it, one thing Wikia actually did do right was having some "Quick Links" on the sidebar. I find myself missing being able to quickly get to the main continuities/series without having to search or click to the Main Page first. (Especially now that there's lots o' ROTF toys to keep tabs on...)

Nothing extensive necessary; just one linkie thingy with a fly-out menu for our six main continuities and the full series list would probably work nicely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:03, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think notably M.Sipher *really* hated that because any time a cursor went within a parsec of the menu, it would pop out in an annoying manner. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::Wasn't just Sipher - it drove me nuts too. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 09:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, in that case, maybe just an extra sidemenu then, kind of like the "Campaign Navigation" box on [http://trinsic.alienharmony.com/Main_Page this sidebar]? I just figured that a fly-out menu would save space, but an extra link sidebar would work for me too.
:::But I'd definitely like something. As Abates points out below, we don't currently have any sidebar links for actually ''browsing''. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Could we make so that they're fly-out menus, but that they only fly-out if you actually click on the title? That would save room while avoiding things jumping out when you're waving the cursor around. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

:I think having a link on the sidebar for Revenge of the Fallen would be good too. While the Community portal and Recent Changes links are great for us Editors, they're not likely to be used much by casual visitors. We should be using the menu to draw attention to major articles. While I'm thinking about it, we could probably change the Main Page link to read "Transformers Wiki"... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I went ahead and popped a link to [[Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] in the navigation menu? I'm thinking between "Main Page" and "Community portal". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not of the upper brass but given the increasing coverage of ROTF as we come down the wire, it'd make the most sense. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 19:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

== We need a new adspace ==

The TFwiki on our new server is doing super mega amounts of bandwidth! (Note I've broken up the OPtimus Prime (G1) page, because, dude, that thing was a monster.) So, uh, I think we need to add a new adspace. One that's *above* the fold, since the ones we have are shoved down in the corner where no one can see them. What advertiser would want to dump loads of money on those? What I'm proposing is a 486x60 banner-shaped ad up above the "article/discussion/edit/history/delete/move/watch" links, nestled in between the Teletraan 1 image and the personal toolbar. (You know, OUTSIDE of the content.) If this is a terrible idea, I will also accept $5 donations. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:14, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:I've no qualms with that. That was one of the "acceptable" adspaces, if I recall from the old discussions.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:18, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Long as they don't dance or talk or sing, that'll work. Are we actively pursuing advertisers these days? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:22, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, "actively pursuing advertisers" is somewhat incompatible with our current ad setup. To put an ad on our site now, that requires signing up with Project Wonderful and bidding. This is good for us because it's mostly automated. If we were to set up a "real" in the traditional sense, we'd need a full-time ad pursuer to fill those spots. The best we can do in our current situation is to try to convince Big Bad Toy Store and its ilk to sign up for Project Wonderful. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:33, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:IIRC, above-the-article is what we wanted Wikia to switch ''back'' to. I have no objection. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. How does Ant handle TFU.info's advertising? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

:Doesn't bother me... but can we either put it ''under'' the personal bar, or somehow make it so the personal bar would wrap? Otherwise, I'm staring at the top of my screen and realizing that I'd have an annoying horizontal scroll bar afterwards whenever I'm logged in.
:I have to admit I'm kind of befuddled that we're apparently doing so much more traffic after the move than we were before, to the point of having all those initial problems because we weren't expecting it. Did the new server somehow improve our traffic, it is sheer coincidence that traffic increased for other reasons, or was it more like the old server wasn't keeping track of bandwidth or anything, so we had no idea how we were actually doing? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:38, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Hosting with Bookworm was cheap. I mean, he was doing it at-cost. Or would have, if he ever invoiced us. Now that we've moved on, we're purchasing hosting from people who actually want to make money off us. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:41, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, the money's part of it, but I was also thinking about how most of our initial operational troubles seemed to stem from having more traffic to deal with than we realized we were going to have, to the point of even having to run a caching setup I'm guessing we weren't running on the old server. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:45, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::The way Bookworm had his servers set up, it was difficult for him to separate out what was our traffic versus what was other traffic on the same server. He gave us an estimate which turned out to be wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Aah, OK. Wasn't sure if it was something we needed to worry about or not. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:29, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I was kinda expecting this :( I'm cool with more banners, and I think you should beg us for money now and then. We may be able to help when we can. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:15, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Caching is what most mediawiki installations '''do.''' We happened to start off on the most resource-intensive wiki software imaginable, and any stats from Bookworm were not only inaccurate based on whatever he was doing in the logs, but also because back then, ''the wiki was constantly crashing.'' You get zero hits per hour when it's down, and no stats in the world would help clear ''that'' up. I'm still tweaking the hit stats, and it'll be at least a week before I can start extrapolating growth numbers, but suffice it to say, we're going to go over our current bandwidth limit before the month is out, and while we won't get shut down, we ''will'' get billed for overages. Think of it like a normal cellphone plan instead of a pre-paid one. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:47, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

::Yeah, that's mainly what I thought Walky meant. Nestled between the personal bar and the article tabs seems like fertile ground for a banner ad.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 13:39, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
I've got the ad code ready to go, whenever we can edit the CSS or whatever to make room. Here is our awesome new placeholder "please bid here" graphic: [https://www.projectwonderful.com/imagewrapper.php?img=img/uploads/pics/20719-1244569575.jpg&rand=439981] --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:48, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Looks good so far. Potentially odd question: are these particular dimensions popular with Project Wonderful?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:55, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::The Leaderboard (700ishx90) and the Big Box (300x250) are the most popular sizes, but those would really ugly up our page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::And now it has its first client! That was fast.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Ahhh, Dreamland Chronicles is awesome. I spent a week a few months back reading through their archives after following an ad on our sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:20, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::One interesting thing looking at the Project Wonderful stats is that our ad hits are ''stabilizing'' now, and they're stabilizing fairly high relative to where they were when the site was still spotty. That's got to look good for advertisers, and if the site holds up to the abuse that the film debut is going to subject it to that's only beneficial to us in the end.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Ptbar-notmeanttobehere.png|thumb|This = bad]]
Uh, I'm using Monobook, and as a result of this, the watchlist/preferences/etc bar has somehow ended up at the ''bottom'' of the page, just above the About Transformers Wiki/Powered by MediaWiki/etc... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got that on a couple of pages, too, and alt+F5ing didn't work. How I fixed it was I signed out and viewed those same pages as an anon. The userbar went back to where it should be, and it stayed there when I logged in again. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 10:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Tried that, didn't work.
::In fact, it's worse than I thought, because I didn't notice at first that the page/discussion/edit tabs have gone wandering too, and are floating around the place (the "discussion" and "edit" tabs are currently in the middle of this edit box, and I can't see the others anywhere). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:58, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::'''THE PROBLEM IS IN common.css'''.
:::The following CSS borks monobook. This is why you should use the specific stylesheets for each skin, NOT the common file:
<pre>
#p-personal {
position: relative;
}

#p-personal .pBody {
float: right;
}

#p-cactions {
position: relative;
}

#content {
margin-top: 16px !important;
position: relative;
}</pre>
:::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

The new ad space at the top of the page, which was fine yesterday, is now looking screwy in Firefox, with the ad behind the top of the Autobot symbol in the logo and the tabs at the top of the bar. Like so: [[Image:Top-ad-screwy.jpg|thumb]] --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:43, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works fine for me in 3.0.10 and 3.5b99, both after clearing cache.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:47, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I made some CSS modifications in response to SanityOrMadness's issue, which may cache improperly. Try a hard refresh/clearing your cache. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:51, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Okay, clearing my cache fixed it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 20:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

{{-}}

==Consolidate front page?==
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009.jpg|thumb]]
Man, that front banner is huge! Can it be smaller? And when we make it smaller, can we stack up the top-most two boxes next to it like so? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
: The cropped image shown, of course, is just a placeholder. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks about as clunky as Wikia's frontpage, IMO.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:05, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Well, it's not fine-tuned or anything. Thing is, either that banner's going to be cut down or removed entirely. It's huge, it's bandwidth-wasting, and it pushes all our real content down off the page. What's your choice? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::I'm probably knee-jerking based on the placement of the boxes. I guess it could be made to work if it's finessed a bit. It's not like we're running a ginormous ad there like Wikia was suggesting.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:31, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I dunno, personally I like this new idea. It reminds me of how our franchise navs look: Logo on the left, linkage on the right. Plus, yeah, unlike Wikia, our content on the right of the logo will actually be... content.
:::::As for logo ideas, why don't we make a few different options where it's the TFWiki.net logo over a pic of a single character? We could have one for Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, etc. using the <OPTION> thingy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:37, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::As long as the site-name logo thing itself is HUGE. I really want to make sure the URL is shoved in your face. Branding continues to be important as we war against Wikia for Google prominence. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::If branding's important, why not change the actual on-every-page logo to use the actual TFWiki.net logo? And put TFWiki.net in the page <title>? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:01, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Alternately, each one could be a group shot from a different franchise, with the font altered to match. Play up how many different continuities there are, eh?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
[[Image:Newfrontpage062009b.jpg|thumb]]
::::::::This image to the right is what I'm now thinking. And it should probably have movie characters predominantly, at least for the next few months. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm inclined to agree with sticking with the movie characters now, considering it's almost two weeks till the US premiere/release. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 17:19, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

That's pretty darn good. Brings a lot more info above the fold, and the layout's pretty clean. The white background is good too, so any other images in the rotation should follow that example.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:21, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:How do we make it done? The table markup on the frontpage is foreign to me. I'll upload the new image itself... --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:32, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Since Derik doesn't seem to be about yet, I'll have a go with it. Hmm. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)--[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Actually, we're really going to have to do something like your first example above, with the Continuity/Category tables underneath each other instead of side-by-side, because trying to fit the logo and the two tables all side-by-side looks hideously awful on a 1024px-wide screen. I tried just simply having the smaller logo, the text notices under it, and the two tables on the right, but it looked kind of... eh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:04, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Mrr. OK, I made ''an'' attempt at tweaking, although I think it's going to need some external CSS tweaks at least, if only to center the Continuities table. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Looks okay, but the jarring thing about it is that the red and blue boxes aren't the same width, though they share a column.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:19, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::That's something Derik needs to tweak in the Featured box template and/or external CSS... I can't do it just by editing the page itself.
::::::Also, yea or nay on the link buttons? It just seemed a little more "Click me!" than the paragraph o' links. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:49, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I dig 'em. Good design decision, IMO. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 16:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Quite aside from anything else... what's the point in liking to tfwiki.info with an image link. It ''just about'' made sense as a text link, but is only going to confuse people who click on the Autobot symbol and end up back where they started. We need to cut down on main page-to-main page links, '''not''' obfuscate where they link to. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Visual consistency. (And the mouseover text indicated it was an "alternate URL".) But, I tried tweaking it again. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:52, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::It's fixed! Huzzah!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 20:46, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::I realized I was just approaching it the wrong way. Eheh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

: I'm a little ambivalent towards the "new" logo, just because I think it's a little bland, although I'm sure it's a work in progress. I am all for putting "TFWIKI.net" in the header and all over the fucking place as a branding effort, though. On a slightly related note, I'd consider flipping the "current series" in said box, so ROTF is closer to the center of the page and Animated is on the outside - if we're really trying to bring in ROTF traffic, having that logo front and center is probably a pretty smart idea. I also like the idea of a rotating logo box - maybe we even jigger it so that it links directly to the article for whoever's in it - like the Go! Boxes, but focused entirely on core characters (More Fallen, Movie Optimus, etc., less Irwin Spoon and Dinobots Strike Back). Stick with primary Movie-verse guys for now, and then in a month or so when the hype dies down, we can start to shuffle in some sufficiently advanced and significant articles (making sure that the characters are both important to the fiction and that their articles are nearly, if not entirely complete). [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 11:17, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:That sounds like a good idea. I'm down with that. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:00, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

[[Image:Boxswap.jpg|right|350px]]
I has new idea for what module ought to be above the fold, and more ROTF promotiony stuff. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:15, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:Sure, I'd go for it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Considering how crowded and text-heavy the front page is, I think the best way to draw attention to the banner is to surround it in as much empty space as possible, [[User:Magnus Maximus/Temp|something like this]], especially as the new banner's white background assimilates the page's whitespace so easily. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:10, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:I'm not sure how that's really different than it is now, other than putting the site notice at the top... which I kind of hate doing, because that pushes all of the content stuff down. The site notice is temporary anyway.
:I was thinking we ought to make the movie stuff more prominent, rather than the continuity/category modules. I was also thinking of placing the banner, site notice, and external website links in one cell instead of two like it is now, which further creates whitespace... I just didn't think of that until after I made the layout change proposal pic.
:I do agree/think maybe we could stand to lose a few modules, though... maybe ditch the Categories module entirely, and consolidate the Holy Grails and Editing Tips somehow. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 03:32, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::Oh yeah, you're running a 1024 desktop, aren't you? I changed my res to 1024, and you're right, it really doesn't look much different. But [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3349/tfwikitemp1280.jpg this] is how it looks in 1280, and even that little bit of extra space makes a huge difference compared with how it is [http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4606/tfwikinow1280.jpg now] (in my opinion).
::I agree about the notice, but I couldn't think where else to put it. Putting it under the banner (thus between the blue and grey boxes) made it seem wedged-in and out of place. Lesser of two evils, you dig?
::I also agree about making the movie stuff more prominent, but the red and blue boxes are narrower, so they take up less of the horizontal space. I did think that maybe we could change the featured series box so that ROTF is ''on top'' of Animated instead of beside it, and shift that up next to the banner somewhat like it is on my temp page now. That also adapts to 1024 better, I think.
::And yeah, losing some of the boxes would not be the worst thing in the world. - [[User:Magnus Maximus|Magnus Maximus]] 03:52, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ehh... my problem with that idea is that, one of the reasons we redesigned the Main Page to begin with is because our greeting was so big that it was pushing useful content down below the fold. This sort of recreates that exact same problem.
:::But, I tried tweaking my Main Page design here: [[User:Jeysie/Main Page]] to give more whitespace. I figure that once the movie's been out for a while and we don't need to pimp it as much, we can replace the Featured Characters box with the Continuities box. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:50, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::I was looking at the front page right now and thinking about some things - I'm glad to see most of them are in line with what's already considered. :)
::That said, I suggest taking TFA out of the featured series box, even if only temporarily, and using the [[:Image:Revenge fallen logo.jpg|logo from the franchise page]]. I feel it's more recognisable as the ROTF logo than the more colourful one we have there, plus we can make it a bit bigger.
::I also wonder if we should have "Transformers Wiki" written on there somewhere other than the site logo in the sidebar. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

:::: "TFWIKI.net - THE Transformers Wiki"? [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 07:49, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I made up a [[:Image:Wikilogo big.psd|PSD template]] of just such a logo this morning. It's layered, so the transparent overlay of the Autobot leaders is optional.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:18, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::I definitely prefer the font of the current TFWIKI.NET logo to that one.
::::::Whatever we ultimately do though, surely we should use the same logo EVERYWHERE, including for the top-left logo, ja? (There's also the recurring thought that we have a G1 Autobot sigil for the top-left logo, but a '''G2''' Autobot sigil for the favicon. I understand that the G2 favicon is unique, which was the main reason we went for it, but if we're thinking about branding...) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 12:37, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Logo===
[[Image:TFwikilogomock.png|right]]
If we want to be movie-centric AND use the TFWiki.net logo extensively for branding reasons, shouldn't we change the Animated-based logo to something more like this? (NB: Quick mock to make a point, '''not''' intended to be actually used, and may clash with the Teletraan on the Monacobook skin). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:30, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think we do need to keep some visual distinctiveness. If we go too far into the grey look of the movie we end up with understandable confusion concerning its resemblance to [http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monaco-logo.png this].--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 17:59, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah. I'm really really fine with keeping our current page design/color scheme. The Wikia site is really gray, and I'd rather not veer to close to that. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:48, 10 June 2009 (EDT)
:::[Joke Suggestion] How about we make ours ''on fire''? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 04:27, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
::::It wouldn't actually be ''that'' hard to do... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:08, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

===Featured-series box===
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series}}
|view=User:SanityOrMadness/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
Should we perhaps rebalance the featured-series box to be more like this? (Yes, I know there's a too-high gap between the two lines to the right of the TFA logo. It didn't preview like that, and I can't see why it's doing that.) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 14:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:That's pretty darn sweet-looking, IMHO. I tried swapping around [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my take on the Main Page]] to include a slightly modified version of it. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:16, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::The way it is on the mainpage right now looks really great. Good density of info above-the-fold.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:19, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Or rather on Jeysie's test page, I see now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:21, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Thing about including [[Main Page/featured-characters]] in it like that (which I just edited to increase the header-size to be visually bigger than the character names, and debold the character names themselves) is that if you separate that from above AND below with a line, you visually make it into a franchise by itself. TFA needs a stronger separator from ROTF than the ROTF stuff does within itself. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:39, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
<div style="float:right">
{|width="50%",
|-
|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Series
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
|view=Main Page/featured-series
}}
|}</div>
How about this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:Works for me. I added it to my test Main Page with a few minor formatting tweaks. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::That looks excellent to me! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:23, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Are we doing to do this then? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:06, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Was wondering that myself. Any more tweaks or suggestions to add, or should we go with my mockup? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:02, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::The mockup looks pretty solid to me.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:11, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::I say go for it! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:46, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Looking again at the featured-characters bit... is Sideswipe really the best choice for that fourth spot on row 1? I already changed Soundwave to Devastator, because the latter has been a LOT more prominent in promos for the movie, but I'm not sure who would be best for a fourth Autobot. Jetfire? Skids & Mudflap? (I'm not even sure if Ironhide is best for the third slot). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:54, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I was trying to think of a balance between which characters were most prominent and which people were likely to be excited about... we could go for Optimus, Bumblebee, Jetfire, and Skids & Mudflap together in the last spot. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:03, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Made that change for now, then. I think "prominence" should probably be the main factor, if we want to grab users. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:14, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
{{-}}

===Featured article===
Now that the featured series box has been sorted... nothing against Kup, but do we have a movie/ROTF article that could possibly take the featured spot at some point between now and the 19th? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:[[The Fallen]] is at Featured Article status. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:07, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::And has been the Featured Article for awhile at A Certain Other Place. I'd rather not mirror them in that respect, personally.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 18:22, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::In that case... I've got no idea. None of the rest are at FA status, and I can't think of which one would be most relevant to pick on for cleanup. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:31, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Surely the three most obvious non-Fallen articles "to pick on for cleanup" are [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]], [[Bumblebee (Movie)]] and [[Sam Witwicky]], ja? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 18:51, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Simmons might be mroe fun. ;)
:::::And Megatron more enlightening, if someone wants to take a whack at his DS-game backstory. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:17, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Looks like Primal Prime is the featured article at that other place, not The Fallen. In fact, it looks like their Fallen article has a cleanup tag, not a featured tag... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:07, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::Yeah, someone replaced it a couple of days ago after noticing that their "The Fallen" article wasn't up to scratch. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:40, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Any objection to us featuring our superior The Fallen article after all, then? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:08, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, on the 24th, the Fallen's page is going up. ESPECIALLY if it's also up at Wikia. Our Fallen page has to supercede theirs, and burying it on the most important week of its life isn't gonna work in our favor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:19, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Hell, if we want to upstage 'em over at Wikia, just put [[Sideswipe (ROTF)|Sideswipe]] as one of the featured characters. I was over there just to see how far the site had gone downhill and it surprised me. They ''don't even have a page for Sideswipe'', it just redirects you to G1 Sideswipe. How sad is that?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 00:13, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:How hard did you look? I wont link it for obvious reasons, but there IS a page for him. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 00:22, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I think he got messed up by the fact that the Main Page links to "Sideswipe" without the parenthetical, which does indeed redirect to G1 Sideswipe.
::Having said that, their proper ROTF Sideswipe page is still miserable compared to ours, as is the fact that they got the Main Page linking wrong.
::Not only that... I also noticed that one of their registered users, while editing their Main Page, managed to change their Twitter link to our Twitter in the process. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 00:44, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Yeah I didn't look very hard (alcohol is a helluva thing), the link was what I went for. Obviously someone over there screwed up. You got a problem with it Cattleprod, kiss my shiny, metal ass.--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 01:29, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

===Text Purging===
Next possible round of changes:
I've tweaked [[User:Jeysie/Main Page|my setup]] to remove the Categories module (is it really that useful?) and try to reduce/consolidate the Editing Tips/Holy Grails section.

I also think we should do a purge of the Series box and stick to just the "major" series/franchises: Generation 1, Generation 2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, the two movies, and Universe. (Possibly also Classics and/or Beast Machines). We have the comprehensive list linked to for anyone who really wants to look at everything. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:52, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:The categories box is useful for two reasons: (1) In and of itself, it's useful. I certainly use it. (2) Without it, your mockup has an empty white space in the right column almost the exact size and shape of the categories box... - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:49, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
:I further note that, [[:Image:Mainpage analytics-06-05-09.png|per Derik's statdump]], it ''gets used''. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:53, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
::Well, if you can suggest other ways to clean up our Main Page, I'm all for it. As it is, I agree with Walky that it's getting to be too much of a sea of text, and that struck me as being one of the least useful of the modules. I guess we could consolidate it somehow with the Continuities module as a sort of "Quick Links" box...
::We possibly could also get rid of the Editing Tips and Holy Grail modules, but I kind of hate doing that, as it's nice to try to encourage new editors to look at that sort of information. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::Thing is, if I click on the first link in the Categories box because I want to find a particular character, I get a big confusing list of subcategories and... [[Mickey Mouse]]. If I'm a casual user looking for,say, [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], that doesn't help me much, because then I have to hunt through the subcategories for something that looks like it might lead me there. Yes, it's possible that I might notice the search box and use that instead, but that kinda takes away from the point of having that there in the first place.
::Though technically I guess I'm complaining about the organisation of the Characters category rather than the box itself. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:20, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

== Jokes? ==

It is sometimes very hard to find relevant information on this wiki among all the juvenile humor. It's a little off-putting for a casual user like myself. I know this wiki is about robots who turn into cars, but, c'mon... Maybe tone it down a bit?[[Special:Contributions/71.107.102.102|71.107.102.102]] 16:56, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

:No. [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 17:00, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

::If you can point out specific instances where the humor is getting in the way of the information, we'll take those under consideration for adjusting, but on the whole we here tend to appreciate the humor. (Including this editor back when she was a newbie/casual reader.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:04, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
:::As does the overwhelming majority of the readership, it seems. We've gotten praise from all circles for the "do not take it too seriously" approach, even from industry professionals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Tech Upgrades ==

Since we're cracking 1.5 million hits per day, I'm running an alternate webserver for testing over on [http://tfwiki.net:8080/ port 8080.] It's *not* cached, so I expect it to be a smidge slower, but I'm also aggressively tweaking it for better content compression and lower memory usage. It probably doesn't matter *now,* but I suspect that as we close in on the movie, and then as the movie is released and the edits go up, we're going to need to squeeze out every last ounce of performance available to us. That said, can you guys try to break it via logging in/out, editing articles, etc.? It's all on the same database, so any changes made there WILL show up here (and vice versa,) but my major concern is that we don't have those damned login session problems and their ilk going forward. Thanks! --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:05, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:So... an "editing copy" on one server, and a cached copy on another? Because 99% of TFWiki readers aren't editors? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:53, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
::Let's not overcomplicate it. Test on the new link, the software driving that will replace the existing (more resource intensive) software '''if it's any good.''' At this point, I want to find out if there are any bugs, and that's that. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:I got a 405 error when I tried to upload an image on there, but otherwise it seems to be working great. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

=="Wikia wiki" boilerplate==
Between FortMax, Skyjammer and myself, I believe all instances of "Teletraan-I a wikia wiki" etc have been removed from our webpages. Huzzah! Hopefully that will help our Google stats and suchlike, unless I am mis-remembering how those things work... --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 18:31, 12 June 2009 (EDT)
:*thumbsup!* --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:28, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

== Special:Imagelist ==

Is there any way to strip out the deleted images from [[Special:Imagelist]]? It's kinda useless as things stand. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:11, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

== Anonymous users ==

Right, the movie goes wide-release in the UK on Friday (I think there may be some previews on Thursday). Thinking about the chaos that may result [and noting that Memory Alpha - much to Wikia's displeasure - disabled ALL editing between the first opening of ''Star Trek'' and its' wide release in the US.]... I think we should give serious consideration to disabling anonymous editing from at least the 18th to the 26th of June.

Thoughts? Objections? Flames? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:I've been advocating that for over a month. It's the same thing we did with Animated: material is blocked for anons until it comes out in America. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:51, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::I wasn't talking about blocking specific pages, though (in the way a load of ''Animated'' pages were semi-protected) - just a blanket ban on anonymous editing until ''at least'' the 26th (and I would prefer a week or two beyond that). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:57, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'd much prefer if it wasn't a total block. Block anons on all the movie char character articles, etc. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:02, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::Block until a week after the movie's released in the States, namely the chara articles and the film page itself (who knows what poor soul will "unknowingly" put in spoilerific in the synopsis/trivia/notes/what-have-you). It's already difficult enough with the adaptation... --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:06, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::I'm not just worried about spoilers, but about the casual vandalism associated with a sudden & short-lived spike in visitor numbers, which probably wouldn't be limited to the movie pages. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:10, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::If we do so, should we have a site-wide message like Memory Alpha? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 02:08, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::::::At least I know we can use [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]], I'm not sure whether there is any other similar message. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 07:37, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::::::::Wow, some serious US-centric bias being spouted. If you don't want spoiled, then don't visit. It's now well established internet etiquette to avoid forums about a week before a film's release. Same should apply here. Or..... wait til the DVD is released before unlocking movie edits, just in case you're stuck in Outer Mongolia at the time of the cinema release. Anonymous editing should be blocked, if only to stop the inevitable trolling and vandalism. [[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 14:07, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Er, no. For one, the 24th is the '''world''' premiere, meaning the vast majority of countries are getting it on that date, not just the US.
:::::::::For two, we need to be able to monitor all edits made to ROTF articles to make sure they're accurate and factual, and we can't do that if most of the wiki's regular editors haven't even seen the movie.
:::::::::So this has less to do with spoilers, and more with the entirely practical aim of being able to keep tabs on all ROTF edits effectively. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:19, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Gosh, thanks, I'll take your advice under consideration.... wait, no, I really won't. If you have a problem with "U.S.-centric bias," you are in the wrong place: this is openly stated as a U.S.-centric wiki. We blocked anonymous edits to the new ''Animated'' episodes that for some damnfool reason were aired first in Dubai, until they were uploaded online for everyone to see. Our U.S.-based editors shouldn't have to stop working on a website that, to a large extent, ''they created'', just out of fear that some collection of I.P. numbers will thoughtlessly spoil the movie for them. Better to just anon-protect all the movie-related pages until after all the major markets have had their premieres. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:12, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

My vote is for blocking all anons from the movie-related pages for at least one week after the world premier, maybe two. I would not be opposed to a site-wide block, however. I really have no interest in cleaning up after a flood of one-timers and trolls and crap. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:23, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hey, I'm all for the lockage. But to stop the wave of trolls that will come. Not because Americans seem to think they have the <insert deity>-given right to subjugate the free speech of others who have the rare opportuity to experience something before the Americans do. That hardly ever happens. America gets everything first; cars, movies, fat, gadgets, first dibs on invasion etc. Thankfully they don't get irony first.[[Special:Contributions/82.7.126.27|82.7.126.27]] 15:38, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Did you even read the post where I pointed out the vast majority of TF fans, both US and non-US, won't be seeing the movie before the 24th, because the vast majority of countries in general aren't getting it until the 24th?
:::Basically, all TF fans not in the UK and Japan aren't going to be getting to see the movie before the 24th. It's not as if we're making editing wait because everyone else is getting the movie early and the US is the only country that isn't.
:::All of our Canadian, Australian, non-UK European, non-Japan Asian, etc. editors are likely equally glad we're waiting. Maybe you should stop and actually think before you go off spouting jerkass strawman accusations. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:46, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::Are you ''intentionally'' aiming for self-parody, or did you actually seriously just try to frame your potentially being locked out of our privately-run, privately-financed web site about giant alien space robots for a few days as a ''freedom of speech'' issue? 'Cause that right there is some serious comedy gold, sir. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 15:54, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:::I'm afraid there are no Internet Oscars for maudlin self-victimization, otherwise you'd be a shoo-in. Here we only talk about Transformers. You are free to start doing that any old time. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 15:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Hahaha, did he just equate being able to post to a wiki about cartoon robots for a few days... to the right to free speech? Man, and I thought education was bad over HERE! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:03, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

===One derailment later...===
So, then, back on the subject... I still think we should do it. Mr Anon isn't making me think less of it as an idea. And yes, a [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] would be essential. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:33, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
:So, we're all for blocking anons for a week after the 24th? --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 00:31, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::They're gonna get pissy, but sounds good to me. But what about the editors who can't log in, is that still a problem?--[[User:AWT88|AWT88]] 09:52, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Most likely. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 12:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Which editors who can't log in? The problem with IE users not being able to log in was fixed when McFly fixed all the other problems on the site. I haven't heard of any reports of anyone else having the problem... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:32, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== "Transformers Comic" ==

Okay, I've got three issues at present with the titling treatment of the Titan Movie comics:
#Ambiguity - if you look at, say, [[Transformers Comic issue 9]], there's ''at least'' three Transformers #9s with no subtitle - [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|Marvel G1 US #9]], [[Man of Iron!|Marvel G1 UK #9]], and [[Transformers Comic issue 9|Titan Movie #9]]; and currently the only one at "Transformers Comic issue 9" is the Titan Movie issue
#DO we go by issue, or by story? - We're all over the shop on this:
#*The Marvel US issues are all at the story titles, but these pages incorporate any "Transformers Universe" bio material
#*The Marvel UK issues almost all have multiple stories or parts of stories, and I think there may even be some issues with multiple UK-originated/non-reprint stories, and each story is at its' own page, ''which incorporates multiple issues'' (e.g., [[Time Wars]]), leaving aside editorial and other non-story material.
#*The Marvel G2 issues almost all have backups, sometimes nominal, sometimes not, and they're all at the title of the lead/non-"Tales of Earth" story (e.g. [[New Dawn]]).
#*The ''first'' Panini Armada issue is at the story title ([[First Encounter!]]), while the ''rest'' are at "Panini Armada issue X" (e.g., [[Panini Armada issue 2]]).
#*The IDW issues are at the issue title even where the issue is split into multiple, titled. stories (e.g. [[The Arrival issue 4]])
#The actual title of the Titan Movie issues - Titan Movie v1 #22-25 are actually titled ''Transformers: Universe'' #22-25 (mostly in reflection of it absorbing the cancelled ''Animated'' comic), but are still at "Transformers Comic issue XX"; while v2, titled ''Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen'' #XX, is at the truly bizarre "Transformers Comic 2.XX". Really, just because the letters page said 2.x once, rather than "Revenge of the Fallen (Titan) issue X", which is what's on the cover?
What are we doing with this? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 21:17, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:As I've said before, I do NOT favor consistency here. A one-size-fits-all approach will inevitably fail to encompass the widely variable situations with various comic series.
:The Marvel US book are under the story titles because, for all intents and purposes, the story and the issue are one and the same. Likewise for most of Dreamwave's G1 run. Sure, we could move 'em all to "The Transformers issue 2 (Marvel US)", but what do we ''gain''? How is this any better than "Power Play!"? What is the benefit? Mere consistency is insufficient reason.
:This is much, much less true with the UK comic, where stories were broken into two and even three parts, and multiple stories shared page space in the same issue. Now, I've heard rumblings to the effect that each UK issue should have its own page, and there's merit to that, insofar as each issue's contents are a mixed bag - minicomics, letters pages, and pieces and parts of various stories. It might make sense to have a page for each issue, basically a list of its contents, with ''See main article'' links to the entire story -- so, say, UK #88, #89, #90, or whatever, all link to a single page for "Target: 2006".
:With G2, it absolutely makes complete sense to combine the two stories. The "backup" strips are such in name only; they are absolutely integral to the main strip, and neither can be read without the other. Separating "Tales of Earth" bits into their own pages is only going to confuse things and make them ''less informative''. Furthermore, the main strip clearly ''is'' the MAIN strip. It makes sense to cover the whole story under that strip's title. Our current system for G2 acknowledges this, while still distinguishing between the contents of each section. The alternative is to move each page to "Generation 2 issue 2" or whatever... and I don't see what we gain by doing this.
:The Titan comics should be moved to whatever the cover and indicia call them. If they're just ''Transformers'' or something equally generic, well, that's what parenthetical disambigs are for. Likewise for the ROTF reboot. A simple (Titan) should cover the bases well enough, yes?
:A recent trend has been issues with 2 discreet stories, such as the ''Animated'' books you mention. I've long been in favor of having a single page for the ''issue'' for such books, with ''See main article'' links to the individual stories within them - so "Animated: The Arrival issue 2" would be a list of stuff, with two prominent links within to pages about the two stories it contains. Still, I can understand if people see that as unnecessarily messy -- so long as they can agree that, since the stories are pretty much co-equal, it would make no sense at all to give one or the other naming precedence.
:So, that's my take. Case-by-case basis FTW, baby. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 21:43, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

:Also, to address item #1 specifically... if we do stick with "Transformers" as the title, there should be a disambig note for Transformers at the top. Unless "Comic" is in the title, it shouldn't be in there. I'm thinking the article names should be "Transformers issue 1 (Titan)", etc., with the parenthetical at the end of the page title, rather than the middle.
:These books generally have stories from different continuities, don't they? That's a point in favor of separating the story content out from the containing issue. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 11:19, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

== Non-movie (Movie) characters vs. movie (ROTF) characters with the same name ==

Anyone else think we should, at the very least, have {{tl|disambig2}}s on pages like [[Jetfire (Movie)]] and [[Mudflap (Movie)]] to the ROTF characters of the same name? Yes, I realise users could go via the disambig page, but I see it as making things simpler & easier for newbies, and in that scenario one click is always better than two. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 22:20, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:I think I'd cautiously support adding a <nowiki>{{disambig2}}</nowiki> for characters of the same name within the same continuity if there seems like a good chance for confusion. I'd oppose imposing it as an across-the-board standard though. (You're nto suggesting that though.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:23, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
::I oppose it on the principle that multiple disambig templates on a page is ugly. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:47, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::Ugly, and you can get to where you need to go through the disambig. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:48, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
:::::Here's the thing though - '''is it intiutive''' for a complete newbie, who came in via ROTF, to see "Optimus Prime (Movie)", "Bumblebee (Movie)" and "Megatron (Movie)" '''and not immediately conclude''' that the Jetfire article will be at "Jetfire (Movie)", rather than some incredibly obscure card-puzzle that even we don't have a final picture for?
:::::Hell, even take it a step up from "complete newbie" to someone who sat through Beast Wars/Machines or Armada/Energon/Cybertron, where characters changed bodies between series so that they had very little resemblance to their prior selves (in the UT's case, without any explanation). Those guys might assume that "Mudflap (Movie)" *is* Skids' twin even if he bears no resemblance to him. And it was a guy making that exact mistake and getting reverted by you last night that caused me to post this.
:::::I really think a BIG, prominent link DIRECTLY from the obscure (Movie) character to the prominent (ROTF) character is required. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 20:26, 18 June 2009 (EDT)
::::As long as there's a link to the same-universe namesake in the intro, I see no need for an additional disambig template. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:21, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Other Voices, Part 1

2009-06-14T17:52:20Z

Fleb: /* Notes */

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=25
|image=VokUnicronHead.jpg
|caption=''[[it|Another]]'' [[Grand Mal|floating head!?]]
|title="Other Voices" Part 1
|production=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[March 31]], 1997
|written by=[[Larry DiTillio]][[Bob Forward]]
|directed by=[[Colin Davies]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}

'''The plans of both Megatron and the mysterious aliens are coming to a head as one of the two moons transforms.'''

:''Japanese title:'' 恐怖の大王現る! (''Kyōfu no Daiō Arawareru!'', "The King of Terror Arrives!")

==Synopsis==
[[Image:Other Voices 1 Blackarachnia Tarantulas.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Some women can't be trusted, especially spiders.]]
In a flash of light, a power anomaly emerges from a wormhole above the planet and descends to the surface. The aliens have arrived.

Rhinox detects the arrival and alerts Optimus, who hopes the truce is still holding. He flies off to meet Airazor and Rattrap at the landing site located in [[Grid Trion]].

Tarantulas is programming his stolen Transwarp cell, when Blackarachnia pays him another visit. She tells him she can get them inside the Maximal base to steal a stasis pod. Megatron monitors the entire discussion between the two spiders and sends Waspinator to the location the aliens are anticipated to arrive at.

Rattrap and Airazor reach the site, which is a large circular plaza of stone, pulsing with energy and containing a stable energon crystal. When Airazor tries to scan it, it zaps her, blasts Rattrap away, and engulfs the entire site inside an organic dome-like structure with Airazor inside

[[Image:Other Voices 1 Airazor bungalow.jpg|right|200px|thumb|The aliens don't like mimes in an invisible box.]]
Airazor awakens inside the "nutty alien bungalow", where a garbled alien voice speaks to her. She assures the aliens she means them no harm, but they have no such compunctions and painfully scan her until she converts to beast mode. After the scan ends, they are left with one word of information: ''"Cybertron"''.

Outside, Waspinator arrives to "secure the area", but Rattrap drives him off with a vigorous bout of fisticuffs.

Primal arrives and surveys the situation. Rattrap's efforts to use a laser to cut through the dome structure are ineffective. Megatron then arrives with Terrorsaur and Scorponok. He mocks Optimus for thinking that simple laser could get through the structure, commenting that the aliens can "create energon itself." He then has Scorponok fire a "toxic sting" that eats through the structure. Primal and Rattrap venture inside; Rattrap drags the semi-conscious Airazor out, while Primal stays to confront the aliens. A series of whip-like metal tentacles ensnare him and lift him up into an agonizing scanning grid.

Tarantulas and Blackarachnia have made their way to the Maximal base, where Blackarachnia activates a device that creates a small opening in the shields. The spiders move in, unaware that they are being followed by Inferno, who notes that they're up to no good and develops his own entry by digging a tunnel below ground.

Rattrap pulls Airazor out through Scorponok's opening just before it self-seals, to find himself facing Predacon guns. The truce is over.

[[Image:Other Voices 1 Primal bondage.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Primal usually has to pay for this treatment.]]
Primal's scan ends, and to address him, the aliens take the form of a "figure of authority"—the head of Unicron. The aliens tell him that the Transformers have contaminated their experiment, which will be "sterilized". Primal pleads for a chance to fix the damage, and for the lives of the planet's native creatures, but the aliens are dismissive, citing greater dangers unknown to Primal. The conversation ends with the aliens activating a "termination sequence".

[[Image:Other Voices 1 Moon opening.jpg|right|200px|thumb|That can't be good...]]
The alien construct begins to pulse with building energy. The distraction proves enough for Rattrap and Airazor to overpower the Predacons. With renewed urgency, Primal breaks his bonds and flies right through the dome; the Maximals beat a hasty retreat—as the dome bursts open, spewing a directed geyser of energy into the sky. The energy activates hidden systems on the second moon, burning away its earthen surface to reveal an endless grid of weapon-like emplacements that being powering up. The moon itself begins to change its shape, and the alien energies cause the orbiting stasis pods to tumble out of orbit.

Rhinox observes all this at the Maximal base, taking measures to track what's happening even as the sensors begin to fritz out. Thus engaged, he doesn't see the spiders coming up behind him till it's too late. Dinobot is likewise gunned down in short order. Staring at Rhinox's displays, Blackarachnia wonders what they're looking at, to which Tarantulas replies: "The beginning...of the end."

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal|Maximals]]
|c1=
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (1)
*[[Optimus Primal]] (2)
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] (7)
*[[Rattrap]] (8)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (12)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Tarantulas]] (3)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (4)
*[[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] (5)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (6)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (9)
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (10)
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (11)
}}

==Quotes==
"Not fair! Waspinator always gets slag assignments." 
"May I remind Waspinator that the current ceasefire applies only in reference to Maximals." 
"gulp, Waspinator go."
:—'''Megatron''' and '''Waspinator'''.

[''Rattrap has just brutalized Waspinator''] 
"I swear, I can't take you anywhere!" 
"Hey, e-heh, just keeping the peace."
:—'''Optimus Primal''' and '''Rattrap'''

"We can't leave Optimus in there!" 
"Hey, ours is not to reason why, but to blow dis joint before we die!"
:—'''Airazor''' and '''Rattrap'''

"Aah, would I could have that sound to lull me to sleep each night."
:—'''Megatron''' enjoying the soothing lullaby of Optimus Primal's agonized screams

"It is too late. You and your enemies have already contaminated the project. The harm has been done. That which does not become part of the one—shall become void." 
"No—wait! We can fix whatever damage was done." 
"We are not interested. The experiment will be sterilized." 
"You can't do that! There are living creatures here. You, with all you power—even you have no right!"
:—The '''Vok''' refuse to bargain with '''Optimus Primal'''

==Notes==
* This is the first of several episodes centered on the aliens, all with "Other V*"-styled titles: "Other Voices", "[[Other Visits (Part 1)|Other Visits]]", "[[Other Victories]]".
*Bob Forward has said this was originally meant to be a 4-parter but the plans were changed at the last minute—"Apparently anything more than a two-parter is too hard to schedule".<ref>[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&&q=%22anything%20more%20than%20a%20two-parter%20is%20too%20hard%20to%20schedule%22 Interview with Bob Forward on alt.toys.transformers]</ref>
*After Waspinator is defeated by Rattrap, he has exactly the voice you'd expect from someone who's been [[Humanization|kicked in the nards]].
*"Scan complete, this is the specimen we analyzed before."—The Vok previously analyzed Optimus in "[[Chain of Command]]".
*The Vok's Unicron hologram is solely a visual reference, and is not meant to suggest any connection between the aliens and [[Unicron]].
*The Unicron hologram's statement "That which does not become part of the one—shall become void" may be a reference to Unicron's quote from [[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]]: "That which does not become a part of me shall become one with the great void." It might also be a twisted reference to [['Til all are one|a certain Autobot mantra]], which wouldn't be the first or last of such references.
*This is perhaps the only episode of the series without an appearance from Cheetor.
*At the beginning of the episode, Tarantulas has a series of purple bars and a series of red bars on a computer screen. In [[Cybertronix]], they are labeled "bass" and "treble."
* This is the last multi-parter to feature a "Next time on ''Beast Wars''" segment.

===Miscellaneous trivia===
* The start of the audio commentary for this episode with fan consultant [[Ben Yee]] and story editor [[Larry DiTillio]] on the [[Madman Entertainment]] ''Beast Wars Season 1'' DVD is almost inaudible. As Larry DiTillio is trying to explain something, something happens that is very difficult to make out, with Ben Yee suggesting they start over.

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

'Til all are one

2009-06-14T17:33:12Z

Fleb:

{{disambig2|the catchphrase|the music CD set|'Til All Are One (CD)}}

[[Image:RodimusTFMMarvel.jpg|thumb|right|300px|I SAID that already!]]

"'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>Til all are one'''" is a phrase knit through [[Transformer]]s mythology and legend, often used as a rallying cry by the [[Autobot]]s. It's been translated as either until the end of the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]], when all Transformers shed their factional affiliations, or until all are rejoined into the [[Allspark]] of [[Primus]].

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 Animated Continuity===
The phrase was first introduced as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s deathbed mantra, and it would then be repeated regularly by [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], [[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]], and many of the other Autobots. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}}
{{note|It even appears in the movie's closing theme: The last verse ends with a declaration that although the stand has been made and the immediate battle is over, the war with the powers of darkness will continue "'til the day when all are one."}}

Having seized the [[Matrix of Leadership]], [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] gloated that "all shall be one" under his rule. {{storylink|The Burden Hardest to Bear}}

===Beast Wars===
[[Rhinox]] refers to the [[Allspark|Matrix dimension]] as a place "where all are one." {{storylink|Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)}}

===Beast Machines===
As [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] consumed the captured sparks of every Cybertronian, he urged "let us all become one!" {{storylink|Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future}}

===Robots in Disguise===
[[Omega Prime]]'s [[Matrix Blade]] had this phrase written across the hilt.

===Unicron Trilogy===
====Cybertron====
When communicating with the Autobots, [[Primus]] would intone the phrase in reference to their quest to restore his Allspark. Later, when he created the ''[[Ark (Cybertron)|Ark]]'' out of the four Cybertronian starships signifying the unity of the Transformers, he said that all were finally one. {{Storylink|End}}

===Dreamwave comics continuity===
[[Image:Ancients.jpg|thumb|right|The Jedi Council has decided not to grant you the rank of master, young Prime.]]
In the [[War Within]], the Autobot [[Council of Ancients]] held court in a chamber embossed with the same logo that had appeared on Omega Prime's sword.

The [[Seal of Primus]] also had "'til all are one" written on it.

===IDW comics continuity===
The Decepticons seem to have a much darker use for the phrase. During a gladiatorial death match between Megatron and an [[Cy-Kill (G1)|unnamed opponent]], the crowd begin to chant the phrase, apparently attempting to goad Megatron into finishing off his opponent. It is unknown why the crowd would choose this chant to encourage a gladiator to kill someone.{{storylink|Megatron Origin issue 2}}

===Shattered Glass===
In the [[Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]] timeline, the evil [[Optimus Prime (Shattered Glass)|Optimus Prime]] sports a mocking juxtaposition of the famous saying on his alternate mode, reading "'Til all are gone!"

==See also==
*[[Darkest hour]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Til all are one}}
[[Category:Transformer culture]]

File:Sumdac Streak.jpg

2009-06-14T17:05:59Z

Fleb: blog

From Derrick J. Wyatt's blog. [http://derrickjwyatt.blogspot.com/2009/03/secret-origins.html] The origin of Sumdac's white streak is revealed!

Enter the New Supreme Commander, Dai Atlas!

2009-06-09T23:09:33Z

Fleb: /* Trivia */ wikipedia doesn't mention it at all

{{episode|
|series=zone
|ep=1
|prev=Echo Across the Galaxy! Bell of Love!!
|title="Enter the New Supreme Commander, Dai Atlas!"
|japanese=新総司令官ダイアトラス登場!
|romaji=Shin Sōshireikan Dai Atlas Tōjō!
|translation=
|image=ZonePoster1.jpg
|caption=Zone is the Enders
|production code=
|production company=[[TakaraTomy|Takara]], [[Columbia Music Entertainment|Nihon Columbia]]
|writer=[[Toyohiro Ando]]
|director=[[Hiromichi Matano]]
|animation studio=[[Toei]]
|airdate=[[July 21|21 July]] 1990
|continuity=[[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}
'''When nine of the most powerful Decepticons are gathered together under the rule of Violen Jiger, Autobot Powered Master Dai Atlas must step forward to prevent them from acquiring the power of the mystical Zodiac.'''

==Synopsis==
Seeking to conquer the universe, the mysterious, demonic [[Violen Jiger]] gathers together the [[Decepticon]]s [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]], [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]], [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]], [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]], [[Predaking]], [[Abominus]], [[King Poseidon]], [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|BlackZarak]] as his [[Nine Great Demon Generals]]. To remove the threat the [[Autobot]]s pose to his goal, he has the generals devastate the planet [[Feminia]], drawing the attention of Autobot [[Supreme Commander]] [[Star Saber (Victory)|Victory Saber]] and his troops, who arrive to save the planet's populace. Victory Saber saves the life of a young boy named [[Cain]], but is unable to escape the planet's destruction himself and is left missing in action when Feminia explodes.

With the Autobots in disarray following the loss of Victory Saber, Violen Jiger charges his generals with obtaining the Autobots' new energy source [[Energon Z]], and the [[Zodiac]], the enigmatic energy force responsible for the creation of the universe, which he intends to fuse together to create the super-energy that will fuel his dreams of conquest.

Meanwhile, Cain and his pet [[Emusa]] are brought to [[Micro|Planet Zone]], the fortified defence base of the Autobot [[Micromaster]]s, where [[Countdown (G1)|Countdown]] and [[Rabbicrater]] give him the lowdown on its history. Zone was created by the [[Powered Master]]s, early Transformer pioneers of space, and the [[Zone Base]] is powered by [[Energon Z]]—which makes the planet the next target for the Demon Generals. Overlord, Menasor, Bruticus and Abominus attack the planet and steal the Energon Z, escaping into space as [[Moon Radar]] leads the [[Super Car Patrol Team]] and the [[Battle Patrol|Battle Patrol Team]] in pursuit. Their way is barred by BlackZarak, who impedes their progress with an energy net. The [[Jet Patrol Team]] free their companions, and [[Sunrunner]] tracks the Generals with his radar, discovering that the capsule of Energon Z has been handed off to the other half of the group, who are on their way to Earth.

Back on Zone, as the [[Rescue Patrol Team]] cleans up, the Powered Masters [[Dai Atlas (G1)|Dai Atlas]] and [[Sonic Bomber]] return from their search for Victory Saber, bringing the wounded commander back safely. The two Powered Masters briefly watch over Victory Saber in the infirmary, then set out for Earth, where Devastator, King Poseidon, Trypticon and Predaking are already wreaking havoc. The Micromasters, meanwhile, have already arrived on the planet, just in time to save a young boy named [[Akira Serikawa|Akira]], who... ''befriends''... Cain as the Micromasters do the best they can to hold off the Generals. In the nick of time, Dai Atlas and Sonic Bomber arrive, and the battle goes underground as Devastator and Dai Atlas race to find the Zodiac, buried in a cavern beneath the Earth's surface. As Devastator is dispatched by a river of lava, King Poseidon attempts to escape with the Zodiac, but is stopped by Sonic Bomber, and tosses it to his fellow Generals. Dai Atlas is able to snatch it from their grasp, but the enraged Trypticon then unleashes a beam of Energon Z from the capsule directly at him. Sonic Bomber valiantly takes the hit for Dai Atlas and is nearly killed by the beam, but Trypticon simply fires off another shot. In desperation, Dai Atlas holds aloft the Zodiac and petitions it for help, and as the Energon Z washes over it, its power is unleashed. Dai Atlas and Sonic Bomber are transformed into "Zone Modes", heavily-armed base forms that dispense with King Poseidon and Trypticon. Attempting to flee, Predaking is cleaved in two by Dai Atlas's Zone Sword Cutter attack, and the Zodiac is retrieved.

[[Image:CainAkiraPetals.jpg|left|200px|thumb|And as the cherry blossoms lowered, so did our expectations.]]
The Autobots, Cain and Akira then discuss the nature of the Zodiac amongst themselves, with Akira revealing that he learned about the existence of Zodiac from his father, but he wants to know more about space and the Transformers. Conversely, Cain and Moonradar want to learn about Earth, and they all agree to teach each other about their respective subjects. Emusa then invites Akira to Zone, and Dai Atlas approves; Akira is ecstatic, but stops to pull something from his backpack — he presents Cain and Emusa with some flowers, and wants to bring plenty along for the trip!

Returning to Zone, Victory Saber appoints Dai Atlas as the new Supreme Commander of the Autobots. The flying Emusa throws a bouquet into the air that falls apart, and as the petals rain down on the laughing boys and nearby Autobots, the crowd cheers Dai Atlas' name.
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Star Saber (Victory)|Victory Saber]] (6)
* [[Galaxy Shuttle]] (7)
* [[Holi]] (8)
* [[Pīpō]] (9)
* [[Fire]] (10)
* [[Boater]] (11)
* [[Countdown (G1)|Countdown]] (17)
* [[Rabbicrater]] (18)
* [[Starcloud]] (20)
* [[Windrim]] (21)
* [[Big Shot]] (22)
* [[Whisper (Zone)|Whisper]] (23)
* [[Nightflight (Zone)|Nightflight]] (24)
* [[Sidetrack]] (25)
* [[Flak]] (26)
* [[Gingham]] (27)
* [[Black Heat]] (28)
* [[Sunrunner]] (29)
* [[Dai Atlas (G1)|Dai Atlas]] (31)
* [[Sonic Bomber]] (32)
* [[Tailspin]] (33)
* [[Swindler]] (34)
* [[Roadhandler (G1)|Roadhandler]] (35)
* [[Deadhour]] (37)
* [[Road Hugger (Zone)|Road Hugger]] (38)
* [[Road Caesar]] (39)
* [[Grand Maximus]] (40)
* [[Landcross]] (41)
* [[Metalhawk]] (42)
* [[Lander]] (43)
* [[Lightfoot]] (44)
* [[Ranger]] (45)
* [[Road King]] (46)
|c2=
* [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]] (3)
* [[Abominus]] (4)
* [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] (5)
* [[Violen Jiger]] (12)
* [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] (13)
* [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]] (14)
* [[Predaking]] (15)
* [[King Poseidon]] (16)
* [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]] (19)
* [[Scorponok (G1)|BlackZarak]] (30)
|c3=
* [[Cain]] (1)
* [[Akira Serikawa|Akira]] (36)
|c4=
* [[Emusa]] (2)
}}

==Notes==
===Transformers references===
*The Transformers previously visited Planet Feminia in [[The Story of Super Robot Lifeforms: The Transformers issue 5|issue 5]] of the 1986 manga, ''[[The Story of Super Robot Lifeforms: The Transformers]]''. [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] also mentioned it in "[[Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime]]".
*Planet Zone is an overhauled, upgraded version of [[Micro]], seen previously in the ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'' animated series.
*Core of the Zone Base, referred to as the "Rocket Base" in the toyline and ''[[TV Magazine]]'' spreads, is identical to the [[Shuttle Base]] from ''Victory''. It's not clear if they're supposed to be the same structure.
*The [[fire station]], [[gas station]], [[airport]] and [[construction station]] Micromaster Bases belonging to [[Hot House]], [[Glasspit]], [[Overair]] and [[Ironworks]], respectively, all appear as part of the Zone Base, although their Micromaster owners do not.

===Trivia===
*This is the only episode of ''Zone'' in existence. Although rumors have always circulated that as many as five could have been completed, only this first episode was released, and serves as the final animated installment of the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon. The episode is an adaptation of the single chapter of ''Zone'' [[Zone (manga)|manga]], or perhaps vice-versa—the manga was released three months before the OVA, although it's not totally clear which media the story was first conceived for. There are some small differences between the anime and the manga: most notably, in the manga, Predaking is blasted by Dai Atlas and Sonic Bomber's Zone Modes along with King Poseidon and Trypticon, while the anime sees him make a run for it and wind up getting bisected. [[Zone (story page)|Story pages]] in ''[[TV Magazine]]'' would later establish that Trypticon and Predaking also both survived the Zone Mode blast in the manga, whereas they rather definitively died in the anime (Predaking's manga fate was not expanded upon). As such, the story pages are, in the strictest sense, not in-continuity with the anime, although the official 2007 [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)|timeline]] established that their events, in broad strokes, also occurred in animated continuity.
* The ''Zone'' VHS came packaged with the [[exclusive]] figure, [[Rabbicrater]].
* Four complete Micromaster teams appear in this episode: the [[Rescue Patrol|Rescue Patrol Team]], the [[Battle Patrol|Battle Patrol Team]], the [[Jet Patrol Team]] and the [[Super Car Patrol Team]]. The latter two use the molds from the [[Air Strike Patrol]] and the [[Sports Car Patrol]], who were Decepticons in the West.
* Only three members of the [[Race Car Patrol|Race Car Patrol Team]] appear in this episode—in cameos from behind, nonetheless. The missing member is [[Free Wheeler]], who can briefly be spotted in the opening sequence.
[[Image:CainAkiraBlush.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Cain really looks like he stepped out of ''[[wikipedia:Saint Seiya|Knights of the Zodiac]]'', doesn't he?]]
* So, uh... yeah. Cain and Akira are pretty gay. Aside from both being very effeminate in design, there's a scene in the story where, during Predaking and Trypticon's attack on the base-mode Galaxy Rocket, Akira is shaken up and falls back into Cain's arms, and they linger on the pair in close-up as both of them blush. Then, the whole closing sequence is about them running through a field of [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveBubbles shōjo bubbles] and watching the sunrise together. Quite why Takara caved in to the use of such ghastly anime cliché visuals after having stayed away from anything even ''close'' to this in Transformers before, we may never know.
* Devastator totally knocks down the World Trade Center. That dastardly terrorist.

==External Link==
* [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCZ ''Transformers Zone'' article at the Japanese Wikipedia]

[[Category:Media]]
[[Category:Zone]]