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User talk:Jimsorenson

2026-02-26T04:51:33Z

Jimsorenson: /* Does The Complete AllSpark Almanac imply that Daira is the home planet of the Stone Army? */

== Downtimes ==

Hey, Jim. I moved your comment [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Leaving2#Site-up_issues|here]] to join its friends.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:34, 5 May 2009 (EDT)

== BW Models ==

Finished the scanning tonight. Expect an e-mail some time tomorrow. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, awesome! Thank you, I'm looking forward to seeing the models. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:06, 13 May 2009 (EDT)

== Cybertronix alphabets ==

Can I ask how you made the [[:Image:Maximal Language.jpg]] and [[:Image:Predacon Language.jpg]] pics? They might [[:wikipedia:Template:BadJPEG|be better off without JPEG compression]], if possible... --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 17:53, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think I just typed them out and took a screen capture. You're welcome to grab the fonts and take a better pic. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

== Letters Page ==

Hey Jim, you've researched the UK letters pages since I love my notes on them... do you remember whereabout they talk about the US timeline, Time Wars etc being a new universe? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:16, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, geeze. Ummm ... very late in the game, from what I recall. Dreadwing probably, not quite Blaster yet. Beyond that, I don't think I can help you. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:24, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hrm...
::Also I ''might'' be wrong on this... but I think that the BK Transformers site is using your fonts. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:45, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They sure are! Awesomesauce! Thanks for the heads up. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:58, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

== [[Cyberglyphics]] ==
[[Image:B4tasv2 numerals.png|right|]]
[[Image:Allspark chars.jpg|thumb|left]]
Hey, just wondered if you'd be interested in helping on the article. I'm going to have a bunch of time over the holiday weekend, so I hope to get most of the character set transcribed and uploaded as a PDF file. I can also shoot you the Illustrator file when I'm done if you'd like. With a little luck, maybe we can make sense of this and turn it into a good resource for the wiki. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:13, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
:Happily. Cyberglyphics are beautiful, and I'd love to see them get some love. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:16, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
::PDF now uploaded [[:Image:Cyberglyphics reference.pdf|here]]. Those are all the glyphs I've found so far. Lemme know if you need the original Illustrator file.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:57, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Some of the glyphs have also been associated with numbers, and a handful of them are used for an (incomplete) substitution-cipher in a coloring book. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
::::If there are more I don't have in that file, I'd love to see examples so I can add them in.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:02, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::I should dig out the coloring book too... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:55, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::Aha! I ''knew'' there had to be more than just the ten of these things. I'll get those integrated tomorrow.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:02, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::And added to the PDF. Oh, how I wish they didn't put that inane effect on them to make them look "ancient." It makes them harder to eyeball.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:18, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yet more. ;-) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:37, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hmm. ''Some'' of those are new, yet some of them are repeats. I have to wonder how many symbols we'll have when we've catalogued them all.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:43, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Actually, I just realized that an NDA I signed makes me working on these a dicey proposition at best. Better for me to err on the safe side and bow out. I'm still quite keen to see what you guys make of them, but I don't think I can be involved.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:06, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:That's fair enough, Jim. Thanks for the consideration, at least!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:07, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== More Fonts ==

Thought you might want to know-- Decepticon Regular shows up in the Revenge of the Fallen X-Box/PS3 game. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:59, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

:Awesome! I'm everywhere I want to be! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:41, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

== Quiz ==

Just goofing around - [http://apps.facebook.com/flixster/quiz/results?q=1472784&lsrc=ntqofb&flow=quiz Transformers quiz]. Probably easysauce for anyone here though.

== Thanks ==

I just wanted to say thank you for the kind words you send us the seibs News Crew per e-mail! Your updates are very much appreciated.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 08:06, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

:Well, I appreciate the traffic you throw my way, and the good job you guys do of keeping me up to date. I've got your RSS feed up on my blog so that I can stay abreast of the latest TF news. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:19, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::One hand washes the other. :D[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 13:29, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

== Thanks ==

Thank you for telling me this. I just ran across the Star Wars pages and wanted to add the species. I didn't know that that was against the outside sources policy. I think General Grievous is still marked as a Kaleesh however. {{unsigned|Kaymac192}}
:No problem. I just didn't want you to think that people were picking on you because you were new or anything like that. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:56, 19 August 2009 (EDT)

== This must be made ==

If IDW is up to it, it would be awesome if you and bill could put together an Ark-like tome of boxart, especially the stuff from G1 to Beast Wars. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:32, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
:All things are possible ... -[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:49, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

== Harrier Starscream ==

Damn. True. Forgot about it. Anyway, sorry for being so fussy, but there should be capital "H". "jump jet" (= Harrier) - lowcase, "Harrier" - uppercase.

Seems like Starscream's certainly not an expert when it comes to human technology... -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 09:45, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

== WOW ==

omg, i cant believe Jim Sorenson has an account here! Im such a huge fan! right now im saving up to buy the allspark almanac at The Forbidden Planet! --[[Special:Contributions/92.238.160.72|92.238.160.72]] 14:27, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I hope you enjoy it! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:38, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Oh I Bet i will! Its basically the ark, only coloured in and animated! --[[Special:Contributions/92.238.160.72|92.238.160.72]] 14:40, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

== Cybertron caps ==

Are these [[:Image:Cyb13 telemetry1.jpg|the]] [[:Image:Cyb13 telemetry2.jpg|two]] you're after? I'm afraid they're not particularly clear - this is as big as they get. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:16, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:Yup, those're the two. Thanks! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:22, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== Revenge ==

Since I don't have [[Transformers: The Complete Ark|The Complete Ark]], can you confirm [[Revenge (G1)|this]] for me and a few other editors? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:12, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes, that's in there. It came from one of the original designers. I asked if the ship (and the ship at the end of MtMtE) had a name in the original model sheets. It didn't, but he spoke about what he would have called it if it were up to him. I figured that was good enough to mention in the book. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:29, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

==Greetingz-z-z-z!==
Waz-z-z-zpinator greetz-z-z! I'm glad to find z-z-z-zo much comradez-z-z-z here! Well, your questionz-z-z - my answerz-z-z (or vice verz-z-za) on every theme!--[[User:He-l-en1959|He-l-en1959]] 15:50, 30 November 2009 (EST)
== Quez-z-ztion ==
I pray, can you write the whole text of "The Tranz-z-zformerz-z-z" z-z-zong ("Transformers, robots in disguise…") to me? Or tell me where can I find the text, pleaz-z-ze!--[[User:He-l-en1959|Waz-z-z-zpinator59]] 12:25, 25 November 2010 (EST)

==Seeker==

Does Ramjet using the term Seeker in the Almanac mean the group is technically referred to as such? [[User:Eire]] 01.15 Jan 04 2010 (UTC)
: You probably want his user page, not his article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 3 January 2010 (EST)
::I'll leave that as an exercise to the readers. What he says is "[Thundercracker is] the original Starscream. All of us seekers were cloned from him."--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:22, 3 January 2010 (EST)
:::Well, he's a liar, so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:36, 3 January 2010 (EST)

== Lion's share ==

In the source fable, the lion took all of the available food; thus the "lion's share" means ALL of something. However, it is often misused to mean the greatest part. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 23 February 2010 (EST)
:You say ''mis''used, I say used. Language is an evolving shared construct, and that today the meaning has changed. However, you're absolutely right about the historic origins of the phrase.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:28, 23 February 2010 (EST)

==Sentinel Prime==
{{note|This conversation was moved to [[Talk:Sentinel Prime (G1)#Sentinel Prime]].}}

== Anagrams ==

I was just looking at the Almanac Annotations, and saw a section labeled "Unsolved Anagrams" with a listing for a "Baron Ye Gult". I don't know if the list has been updated lately or if this anagram has been solved, but I was wondering if it was perhaps supposed to be "Tonya Bulger"? Don't know who she is, but it seems a possible name. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:06, 27 July 2010 (EDT)
:You'd have to ask Bill, those were his. He does have a [http://www.formspring.me/BillForster Formspring], though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:08, 27 July 2010 (EDT)
::Sorry, looked at the note wrong. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:12, 27 July 2010 (EDT)

== Dalek ==

About the Dalek thing, I was hoping to add it on because that what a Dalek is. I thought we didn't have to not "know" what a Dalek is, and we can tell someone who doesn't know what a Dalek is what it is. That was for people who just saw the picture of the Dalek next to "Go" should I just leave that stuff for the original wikipedia?[[User:LordDalek|LordDalek]] 19:54, 5 September 2010 (EDT)

==Junkion name request==
I've been trying to write/writing several pages for the various Junkion characters, but since I don't own a copy of ''The Complete Ark'', I have no clue what name belongs to what model. I was hoping someone would move them for me, but since that's not happening auto, I am asking around for someone to be so kind. So, would you be so kind to move those pages to their proper title for me?
Which reminds me, there's certain information I'd like to see added to the Character model page or ''The Ark'' pages I figure only you could add. How are character model sheets treated during the (post-)production process? Where do they go once they aren't needed anymore. Is there any reason to why some "get lost" and others don't? How come they apparently had access to Lithone models from the movie to fill up the BBo2006 Junkion crowd, but not to Junkion models? Pretty much the technical lifestory of character model sheets. I would like to learn more about that, and I think it would be interesting to others too. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:32, 17 November 2010 (EST)

== Animated Arcee's Season 3 models ==

Do you have larger versions of Arcee's season three models? The front and back ones in the Almanac 2 are pretty small, and I can't find her altmode anywhere. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 01:04, 25 November 2010 (EST)
:What do you need them for? Also, there is no altmode model for her. She never transformed in the show, so they never drew one.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:30, 25 November 2010 (EST)
::I don't really need them, but was just wanting a better look at them. (Possibly as an extra on your blog :P) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:30, 25 November 2010 (EST)

== Almanac ==

Where do you buy the Almanacs?--[[User:TOM|TOM]] 16:53, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
:Amazon, I believe. There's a link on his user page. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:07, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
::Or any bookstore or comic book shop that's willing to order it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:42, 24 March 2011 (EDT)

== Pictures on [[army-building]] ==

The photos on the army building page which you added back in 2008, did you take those yourself or were they sourced from somewhere? I'm just looking to retag some of them with descriptions, since the original descriptions were lost in the bookworm crash. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:49, 9 February 2012 (EST)
:I took them myself. I'm big into army-building.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:00, 9 February 2012 (EST)
::Groovy, thanks! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:04, 9 February 2012 (EST)

== TFA Optimus Prime ==

So you shan't reveal whether or not he was to become supreme commander in the end, hmm?--[[User:Autotrooper42|Autotrooper42]] 18:15, 2 March 2012 (EST)
: I shared what Marty & Matt & Derrick shared with me. I don't know what they intended to be the secret of Sari or the ultimate disposition of Optimus & Sentinel and it isn't my place to make up an answer.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:41, 2 March 2012 (EST)
::That place belongs to FunPub! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:30, 2 March 2012 (EST)

== Alt2day.com ==

For the past year, I haven't got the site to work for me, any idea why? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 22:57, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
:Well, it was a little viral marketing site for a book that's been out for several years now. A friend was hosting it for me... it's possible he stopped devoting the bandwidth for it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:28, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
::It was the dynyds version, and it did that once before, from January to August of 2011. It's been out now for so long. Maybe you can talk to this friend of your's? Just asking, that's all. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 23:33, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
Hey, um, have you learned anything about it since I asked you? Just wanted to know. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 20:19, 31 August 2013 (EDT)
::Haven't heard one way or the other, sorry.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:49, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::Ah well, thanks for responding. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 17:52, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

== Box art book? ==

haven't heard about this for a while; is it still a thing, or did it fizzle out? [[User:Spork|Spork]] 18:42, 20 August 2013 (EDT)
:Still a thing. It's looking like mid 2014, to tie in with the movie. It's a big subject matter, with appropriately large physical dimensions including pagecount. That means a high price tag. To mitigate that risk, IDW is timing it to maximize sales. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:45, 20 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Cool! By the way, is it g1/g2 only, or more comprehensive than that? Now if IDW would just put out an officially translated set of the Japanese g1 comics, I can die in peace...
::::G1/G2/Japanese/Bonus Material.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:44, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

If you're still searching for the artwork, i have Action Master Bumblebee's card and the box for an Action Master Sprocket (what do you mean "both"? the only Sprockets on TFWiki seem to be G1 and Shattered Glass, and only one of those even HAS a toy to have any packaging art). Hopefully i can scan what i have and e-mail you soon.
[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] 01:20, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:Hey there, Rhymus. Do you literally mean the actual card, or do you have the card art? Generally scans from the packages themselves have been too low resolution for us to work with. Mostly we're working with one of three things: original artwork, photo negatives of the original artwork used for archival, or first generation chrome positives (transparencies) of the first generation artwork used for advertising production. Do you have one of these?
:
:(By 'both' I mean both Sprocket's individual robot form, and him riding in his car.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:38, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
::Sorry, i only have the packaging. Somewhere. Guess i can stop looking for it. [[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] 20:06, 4 November 2013 (EST)

== Beast Wars: Uprising characters ==

If I may ask, are the Decepticon Builder [[Zoom Out]] and Autobot Builder [[Override (BWU)|Override]] in "[[Broken Windshields]]" based in any way on 2007 movie [[Zoom Out 25X]] and 2010 toyline/movieverse [[Override (TF 2010)|Override]]? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:52, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
:It's definitely Real Gear Robot Zoom Out for Zoom Out, but Override is based on her Cybertron character. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:59, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
::Correct.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 15:16, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
:::Thanks! [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:37, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
::::By the way, was [[Override (BWU)|Override]]'s appearance in "Broken Windshields" based on any specific toy of her ''Cybertron'' counterpart? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:22, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
:::::In my brain she kind of [http://www.tfu.info/2005/Autobot/Override/override.htm looks like this], only, you know, hardwired into an arena and all sort of creepy and pathetic.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 16:34, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
::::::Gotcha. Thank you, Jim! [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:52, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
Why is it that thus far in ''Beast Wars: Uprising'', [[Night Viper]] has been a Predacon when all his previous appearances and his sole, mainstream toy have been Maximal? Is it a reference to something? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:54, 7 July 2015 (EDT)
:Yup, referencing Hasbro's original plans to have him be a Predacon who hooked up with Primal's crew of Maximal resistance after Megatron took over the planet. Not sure why they changed that, perhaps too complicated to work into the packaging bio. I always thought it was a neat idea and had that in the back of my head when building out the Predacon team.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 17:48, 7 July 2015 (EDT)

== Rook page character ==

If I am correct in understanding that you are the author of "[[Rook - Axiom Nexus News: Investigative Journalist]]", is the criminal profiler Torca the Beast Era one or a new Transcendent Technomorph version? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:24, 10 July 2015 (EDT)
:Sorry, I'm one member of a team working on that page, and I didn't write the post in question.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:02, 11 July 2015 (EDT)

== You ==
So, you really are the Jim Sorenson. Did you worked at Marvel? I think I remember seeing your name in a Marvel related site.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 20 July 2015 (EDT)
:I'm really *A* Jim Sorenson. I am THIS [[Jim Sorenson]]. I don't think I've done any work for Marvel, but I've done plenty for [[Fun Publications]] and [[IDW Publishing]]. Perhaps that's what you're thinking of.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:05, 21 July 2015 (EDT)
::Oh, sorry, my bad.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 23:10, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
:::Also, the title is a bit weird, sorry lol.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:10, 27 July 2015 (EDT)
::::Also, these Universal Stream things is awesome, I like alternate universe stories, you're a genius.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:20, 28 July 2015 (EDT)
:::::Thanks. Glad that you're enjoying them. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (EDT)

== Child of Primus Whirl ==

Where has it ever been said that Child of Primus Whirl comes from Aurex 405.0 Epsilon like King Atlas? Both King Atlas and a Whirl are in the Cauldron in "[[Escape (Universe)|Escape]]" but "[[Force of Habit]]" shows King Atlas's subordinate Whirl as one of the last survivors on Combatron after King Atlas's disappearance. I can believe that Whirl was abducted later but where in fiction has that ever been said? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:17, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:"[[Force of Habit]]" showed that both King Atlas and Whirl come from the planet [[Combatron (planet)|Combatron]], which is in the ''Cybertron'' cartoon Club fiction continuity (Aurex 405.0 Epsilon). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 14:29, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, so, you're thinking that it's a DIFFERENT Whirl? Possible I suppose. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:33, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:::Well I'm just saying that we've never seen FunPub Cybertron Whirl ever getting abducted. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:33, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::::I'm sold. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:35, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
While we're on the subject of the Children of Primus, I would like to ask you for a little help if possible. You see, the reason I put Dreadwind and Smokejumper on the Children of Primus list is because their pages were tagged as Children of Primus since before I joined the wiki this year. I saw from G1 Sunstorm page that his profile in the sole 3H [[The Official Transformers Collectors' Club Magazine issue 1|club magazine issue]] marked him as Child of Primus, and I deduced that the other guys with profiles in the magazine must all have had Children/Minion affiliations listed. Same with the guys with profiles in ''The Wreckers'' #2 "[[Betrayal]]" director's cut. All of their profiles in that issue seem to mark them as Children/Minions despite them not appearing in the main ''Universe'' comic. If you or anyone you know has the original publications, could you check them? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:29, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:Yeah, ok, dug out my old issues. Sure 'nuff, that's where it's from. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:31, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::Thank you. And if I may ask, can Dreadwind and Smokejumper's profiles in the 3H club magazine retroactively be assigned to their RID or Armada incarnations? And what about the profile for Sam's Club Optimus Prime? The wiki's page for [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] cites the profile in saying that as a member of the Dimensional Patrol, he was abducted along with Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus, but Side Burn is not among the escapees in [[:File:TFUjailbreak.jpg|the jailbreak scene in "Escape"]]. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:31, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Nothing in Dreadwind or Smokejumper incarnations specifies where they might be from. Sam's Club Optimus is definitely a Robots in Disguise bot, with explicit reference to capturing Galvatron and delivering him to Cybertron. After this, he studied "xeno-biological ecosystems throughout the universe" until "evil threatened the temporal and spacial nexus located near the planet Earth," whereupon he rejoined his comrades on Earth and founded the Dimensional Patrol, "a team of transwarp specialsts and rnowned warriors from the Autobot ranks." No mention is given as to who's on the team. It's definitely pre-Universe, as Unicron grabbed him and other members of the Dimensional Patrol to participate in the Universe War.
:::Tell you what... you make a skeleton page for the Dimensional Patrol, I'll fill in the details.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 00:42, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Gotcha. And I'm going to go with Armada for Children of Primus Dreadwind and Smokejumper because the profiles are in the same issue as the MegaWing Galvatron instructions and because RID Dreadwind and Smokejumper are not among the Shell Game Decepticons mentioned in Ask Vector Prime. And I'll take off the Dimensional Patrol detail from Side Burn's page because he's not mentioned in the Sam's Club Optimus profile. And also because a regular colored one, plausibly the cartoon one, appeared freshly abducted in the 2004 OTFCC voice actor play. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:51, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Good, I was going to suggest you remove that from Side Burn, since it's a reasonable inference (perhaps as a note), but not definite. BTW, is there some way I could chat with you off-line about some of this stuff? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:00, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::How about email? Do you use the one listed on Disciples of Boltax? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:23, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Yup, that's a good one. The same one we stick in the acknowledgment pages of all of our books.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:25, 1 August 2015 (EDT)

==Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed==
I want to ask something, is [[Aurex 006.0 Kappa]] the flash Game Primus Unleashed? I'm asking this because I'm not too sure but I assumed its the universe of that flash game because Vector Prime's answer was about Unicron Singularity, like in the game and since you're the writer of Ask Vector Prime, I wanted to ask.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 08:20, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
:Yes, that was my intention. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
::Ok thanks.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 11:59, 30 September 2015 (EDT)

==Universe Soundwave and Space Case==
Question. For the past few months, you and other writers on Ask Vector Prime have revealed the universal origins and backstory of some of the Autobots and Decepticons that were released in the Transformers Universe (2003) toyline(and let me give you a big thank you for revealing those backstories, especially for the ones that were part of the 2001 Robots in Disguise continuity). However, the only Universe toys that didn't get a backstory were Soundwave and Space Case. Let me add Air Raid(who came packaged with Wind Sheer)too while I am it. People always ask on AVP for their backstory and universe of origin, but no answer is provided about them. Is there a specific reason for this? I'm just curious. Keep up the good work! [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] ([[User talk:Crossblades|talk]]) 18:31, 14 December 2015 (EDT)
:I'm not Jim, just a friend who wrote for AVP once - but I think I can answer this pretty clear cut: These kind of wiki-led questions are generally comparitively boring to write and do a disservice to AVP as a story medium. If he or any of the other writers have an idea that's actually fun and a question worded as if it's something other than wiki-bait, it'll get answered - but with such a high volume of questions it's likely difficult to find time for what borders on the inane. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 18:56, 14 December 2015 (EST)
::So how would you go about asking a question about Soundwave and Space Case without making it seem its wiki-bait? Weird question, I know, but it seems lately AVP wants us to avoid asking certain types of questions. [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] ([[User talk:Crossblades|talk]]) 19:07, 14 December 2015 (EDT)
:::Feel free to do that, but I don't really see why you need to ask about that here. You can ask Vector Prime whatever you want, but he reserves the right not to answer boring wiki-bait questions. The end. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:40, 14 December 2015 (EST)

== BWU Scavenger ==

As pointed out [[Talk:Scavenger (BW)|here,]] there seems to be a discrepancy in the BWU Scavenger's timeline. Did you intend them to be different characters, the same guy returned, or was there just a mix-up? (And yeah, I know author intent and all that, but it probably makes sense as an informed decision for what should go on which page.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 10:42, 11 January 2016 (EST)
:Is there a mix-up? Or are there multiple Scavengers running around in the Beast Era? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:34, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::[[Scavenger (BW)]] and [[Scavenger (BM)]]. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:41, 3 February 2016 (EST)

==About Clutch and Warpath==

In regards to renegade rhetoric and ask vector prime, you mentioned the universal origins of certain decepticon/predacons turned renegades, like Monstrous who is possibly from the Uniend cluster and Pow Wow, Breeze, and Oddball from the Aurex Cluster before they came to Axiom Nexus. However, it was never revealed where Clutch and Warpath originally came from. I was wondering if perhaps this was intentional so we could come up with our own conclusion where they came from(I personally think they are from Viron cluster)or is something being planned for them in the future that you don't want to give too much away? -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 17:27, 27 February 2016. (EST)
:Not an oversight. I left it to your imaginations, or future authors to run with, or for me to write them into a future story. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Fair enough. Cool, thanks for the reply -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 16:10, 27 February 2016. (EST)

== "Drop me a line" ==

Dropped! --[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 14:33, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
:Your old email still work? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 00:24, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
::AOL ''works'', I just don't check it. I e-mailed you my current address.
::(Does your old e-mail still work?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 17:27, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

==A question about Viron 102.0 Beta==

So I was looking over at one of your old Ask Vector Prime posts, the one where you spoke about "Air Attack Optimus Primal" and the spark war that took place in Viron 102.0 Beta. There is something I'm curious about and it's in regards to that Universe's Vehicons. Which Vehicons, at least in your mind, participated in that Spark War against the "shipwrecked" Maximals composed of Primal, Silverbolt, Rattrap, and Rhinox? This really wasn't elaborated upon, unless this is one of those things where you want us to use our imaginations -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 24:20, 19 September 2016. (EST)

== Leatherhide image ==

Any chance we could get a nice upload for [[:File:NotAllMegatrons-leatherhide.jpg|this image]]? I tried extracting it from the PDF, but the image is actually 5k+ separate files for every line... [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:27, 28 December 2016 (EST)
:Here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwBhmf92x_UENDZFMzZNNmZiVFk/view?usp=drivesdk --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:53, 29 December 2016 (EST)
::Grazie! [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 29 December 2016 (EST)

== Nitro Zeus ==
Finished it for you. I left it on Galvatron's page because of how it was written, hope that's ok. [[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:45, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

== Does ''[[Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac]]'' imply that [[Daira]] is the home planet of the [[Stone Army]]? ==

After noticing that [[Spensifax B]] neighbored the [[Intruder|Intruder Empire]] in ''The Complete AllSpark Almanac'', I realized why the empire included [[Cresta Superior]] and [[Kyron]]. But, I was wondering if Daira also being a part of the Intruder Empire is implying that it's the unnamed home planet of the Stone Army and monks from ''[[The Transformers: Drift - Empire of Stone|Empire of Stone]]''. {{Unsigned|InitialTeeHee}}
:Boy, that sure sounds like the kind of thing I'd do, doesn't it? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 23:48, 25 February 2026 (EST)

User talk:Jimsorenson

2026-02-26T04:48:31Z

Jimsorenson: /* Does The Complete AllSpark Almanac imply that Daira is the home planet of the Stone Army? */

== Downtimes ==

Hey, Jim. I moved your comment [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Leaving2#Site-up_issues|here]] to join its friends.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 17:34, 5 May 2009 (EDT)

== BW Models ==

Finished the scanning tonight. Expect an e-mail some time tomorrow. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:17, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, awesome! Thank you, I'm looking forward to seeing the models. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:06, 13 May 2009 (EDT)

== Cybertronix alphabets ==

Can I ask how you made the [[:Image:Maximal Language.jpg]] and [[:Image:Predacon Language.jpg]] pics? They might [[:wikipedia:Template:BadJPEG|be better off without JPEG compression]], if possible... --[[User:Fleb|fleb]] 17:53, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
: I think I just typed them out and took a screen capture. You're welcome to grab the fonts and take a better pic. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:09, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

== Letters Page ==

Hey Jim, you've researched the UK letters pages since I love my notes on them... do you remember whereabout they talk about the US timeline, Time Wars etc being a new universe? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:16, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
:Oh, geeze. Ummm ... very late in the game, from what I recall. Dreadwing probably, not quite Blaster yet. Beyond that, I don't think I can help you. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:24, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

::Hrm...
::Also I ''might'' be wrong on this... but I think that the BK Transformers site is using your fonts. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:45, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
:::They sure are! Awesomesauce! Thanks for the heads up. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:58, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

== [[Cyberglyphics]] ==
[[Image:B4tasv2 numerals.png|right|]]
[[Image:Allspark chars.jpg|thumb|left]]
Hey, just wondered if you'd be interested in helping on the article. I'm going to have a bunch of time over the holiday weekend, so I hope to get most of the character set transcribed and uploaded as a PDF file. I can also shoot you the Illustrator file when I'm done if you'd like. With a little luck, maybe we can make sense of this and turn it into a good resource for the wiki. --[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:13, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
:Happily. Cyberglyphics are beautiful, and I'd love to see them get some love. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:16, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
::PDF now uploaded [[:Image:Cyberglyphics reference.pdf|here]]. Those are all the glyphs I've found so far. Lemme know if you need the original Illustrator file.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:57, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::Some of the glyphs have also been associated with numbers, and a handful of them are used for an (incomplete) substitution-cipher in a coloring book. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:59, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
::::If there are more I don't have in that file, I'd love to see examples so I can add them in.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:02, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::I should dig out the coloring book too... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:55, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::Aha! I ''knew'' there had to be more than just the ten of these things. I'll get those integrated tomorrow.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:02, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::And added to the PDF. Oh, how I wish they didn't put that inane effect on them to make them look "ancient." It makes them harder to eyeball.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:18, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
::::::::Yet more. ;-) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:37, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::Hmm. ''Some'' of those are new, yet some of them are repeats. I have to wonder how many symbols we'll have when we've catalogued them all.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:43, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Actually, I just realized that an NDA I signed makes me working on these a dicey proposition at best. Better for me to err on the safe side and bow out. I'm still quite keen to see what you guys make of them, but I don't think I can be involved.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:06, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
:That's fair enough, Jim. Thanks for the consideration, at least!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:07, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

== More Fonts ==

Thought you might want to know-- Decepticon Regular shows up in the Revenge of the Fallen X-Box/PS3 game. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:59, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

:Awesome! I'm everywhere I want to be! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:41, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

== Quiz ==

Just goofing around - [http://apps.facebook.com/flixster/quiz/results?q=1472784&lsrc=ntqofb&flow=quiz Transformers quiz]. Probably easysauce for anyone here though.

== Thanks ==

I just wanted to say thank you for the kind words you send us the seibs News Crew per e-mail! Your updates are very much appreciated.[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 08:06, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

:Well, I appreciate the traffic you throw my way, and the good job you guys do of keeping me up to date. I've got your RSS feed up on my blog so that I can stay abreast of the latest TF news. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:19, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
::One hand washes the other. :D[[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 13:29, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

== Thanks ==

Thank you for telling me this. I just ran across the Star Wars pages and wanted to add the species. I didn't know that that was against the outside sources policy. I think General Grievous is still marked as a Kaleesh however. {{unsigned|Kaymac192}}
:No problem. I just didn't want you to think that people were picking on you because you were new or anything like that. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:56, 19 August 2009 (EDT)

== This must be made ==

If IDW is up to it, it would be awesome if you and bill could put together an Ark-like tome of boxart, especially the stuff from G1 to Beast Wars. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 21:32, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
:All things are possible ... -[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:49, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

== Harrier Starscream ==

Damn. True. Forgot about it. Anyway, sorry for being so fussy, but there should be capital "H". "jump jet" (= Harrier) - lowcase, "Harrier" - uppercase.

Seems like Starscream's certainly not an expert when it comes to human technology... -- [[User:Silver|Silvery]] 09:45, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

== WOW ==

omg, i cant believe Jim Sorenson has an account here! Im such a huge fan! right now im saving up to buy the allspark almanac at The Forbidden Planet! --[[Special:Contributions/92.238.160.72|92.238.160.72]] 14:27, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
:Well, I hope you enjoy it! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:38, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Oh I Bet i will! Its basically the ark, only coloured in and animated! --[[Special:Contributions/92.238.160.72|92.238.160.72]] 14:40, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

== Cybertron caps ==

Are these [[:Image:Cyb13 telemetry1.jpg|the]] [[:Image:Cyb13 telemetry2.jpg|two]] you're after? I'm afraid they're not particularly clear - this is as big as they get. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 20:16, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
:Yup, those're the two. Thanks! --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:22, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

== Revenge ==

Since I don't have [[Transformers: The Complete Ark|The Complete Ark]], can you confirm [[Revenge (G1)|this]] for me and a few other editors? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:12, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
:Yes, that's in there. It came from one of the original designers. I asked if the ship (and the ship at the end of MtMtE) had a name in the original model sheets. It didn't, but he spoke about what he would have called it if it were up to him. I figured that was good enough to mention in the book. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:29, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

==Greetingz-z-z-z!==
Waz-z-z-zpinator greetz-z-z! I'm glad to find z-z-z-zo much comradez-z-z-z here! Well, your questionz-z-z - my answerz-z-z (or vice verz-z-za) on every theme!--[[User:He-l-en1959|He-l-en1959]] 15:50, 30 November 2009 (EST)
== Quez-z-ztion ==
I pray, can you write the whole text of "The Tranz-z-zformerz-z-z" z-z-zong ("Transformers, robots in disguise…") to me? Or tell me where can I find the text, pleaz-z-ze!--[[User:He-l-en1959|Waz-z-z-zpinator59]] 12:25, 25 November 2010 (EST)

==Seeker==

Does Ramjet using the term Seeker in the Almanac mean the group is technically referred to as such? [[User:Eire]] 01.15 Jan 04 2010 (UTC)
: You probably want his user page, not his article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 3 January 2010 (EST)
::I'll leave that as an exercise to the readers. What he says is "[Thundercracker is] the original Starscream. All of us seekers were cloned from him."--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:22, 3 January 2010 (EST)
:::Well, he's a liar, so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:36, 3 January 2010 (EST)

== Lion's share ==

In the source fable, the lion took all of the available food; thus the "lion's share" means ALL of something. However, it is often misused to mean the greatest part. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:10, 23 February 2010 (EST)
:You say ''mis''used, I say used. Language is an evolving shared construct, and that today the meaning has changed. However, you're absolutely right about the historic origins of the phrase.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:28, 23 February 2010 (EST)

==Sentinel Prime==
{{note|This conversation was moved to [[Talk:Sentinel Prime (G1)#Sentinel Prime]].}}

== Anagrams ==

I was just looking at the Almanac Annotations, and saw a section labeled "Unsolved Anagrams" with a listing for a "Baron Ye Gult". I don't know if the list has been updated lately or if this anagram has been solved, but I was wondering if it was perhaps supposed to be "Tonya Bulger"? Don't know who she is, but it seems a possible name. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:06, 27 July 2010 (EDT)
:You'd have to ask Bill, those were his. He does have a [http://www.formspring.me/BillForster Formspring], though. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:08, 27 July 2010 (EDT)
::Sorry, looked at the note wrong. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:12, 27 July 2010 (EDT)

== Dalek ==

About the Dalek thing, I was hoping to add it on because that what a Dalek is. I thought we didn't have to not "know" what a Dalek is, and we can tell someone who doesn't know what a Dalek is what it is. That was for people who just saw the picture of the Dalek next to "Go" should I just leave that stuff for the original wikipedia?[[User:LordDalek|LordDalek]] 19:54, 5 September 2010 (EDT)

==Junkion name request==
I've been trying to write/writing several pages for the various Junkion characters, but since I don't own a copy of ''The Complete Ark'', I have no clue what name belongs to what model. I was hoping someone would move them for me, but since that's not happening auto, I am asking around for someone to be so kind. So, would you be so kind to move those pages to their proper title for me?
Which reminds me, there's certain information I'd like to see added to the Character model page or ''The Ark'' pages I figure only you could add. How are character model sheets treated during the (post-)production process? Where do they go once they aren't needed anymore. Is there any reason to why some "get lost" and others don't? How come they apparently had access to Lithone models from the movie to fill up the BBo2006 Junkion crowd, but not to Junkion models? Pretty much the technical lifestory of character model sheets. I would like to learn more about that, and I think it would be interesting to others too. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:32, 17 November 2010 (EST)

== Animated Arcee's Season 3 models ==

Do you have larger versions of Arcee's season three models? The front and back ones in the Almanac 2 are pretty small, and I can't find her altmode anywhere. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 01:04, 25 November 2010 (EST)
:What do you need them for? Also, there is no altmode model for her. She never transformed in the show, so they never drew one.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 10:30, 25 November 2010 (EST)
::I don't really need them, but was just wanting a better look at them. (Possibly as an extra on your blog :P) --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:30, 25 November 2010 (EST)

== Almanac ==

Where do you buy the Almanacs?--[[User:TOM|TOM]] 16:53, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
:Amazon, I believe. There's a link on his user page. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:07, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
::Or any bookstore or comic book shop that's willing to order it. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 21:42, 24 March 2011 (EDT)

== Pictures on [[army-building]] ==

The photos on the army building page which you added back in 2008, did you take those yourself or were they sourced from somewhere? I'm just looking to retag some of them with descriptions, since the original descriptions were lost in the bookworm crash. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:49, 9 February 2012 (EST)
:I took them myself. I'm big into army-building.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:00, 9 February 2012 (EST)
::Groovy, thanks! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:04, 9 February 2012 (EST)

== TFA Optimus Prime ==

So you shan't reveal whether or not he was to become supreme commander in the end, hmm?--[[User:Autotrooper42|Autotrooper42]] 18:15, 2 March 2012 (EST)
: I shared what Marty & Matt & Derrick shared with me. I don't know what they intended to be the secret of Sari or the ultimate disposition of Optimus & Sentinel and it isn't my place to make up an answer.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:41, 2 March 2012 (EST)
::That place belongs to FunPub! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:30, 2 March 2012 (EST)

== Alt2day.com ==

For the past year, I haven't got the site to work for me, any idea why? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 22:57, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
:Well, it was a little viral marketing site for a book that's been out for several years now. A friend was hosting it for me... it's possible he stopped devoting the bandwidth for it.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 23:28, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
::It was the dynyds version, and it did that once before, from January to August of 2011. It's been out now for so long. Maybe you can talk to this friend of your's? Just asking, that's all. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 23:33, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
Hey, um, have you learned anything about it since I asked you? Just wanted to know. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 20:19, 31 August 2013 (EDT)
::Haven't heard one way or the other, sorry.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 17:49, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::Ah well, thanks for responding. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] 17:52, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

== Box art book? ==

haven't heard about this for a while; is it still a thing, or did it fizzle out? [[User:Spork|Spork]] 18:42, 20 August 2013 (EDT)
:Still a thing. It's looking like mid 2014, to tie in with the movie. It's a big subject matter, with appropriately large physical dimensions including pagecount. That means a high price tag. To mitigate that risk, IDW is timing it to maximize sales. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:45, 20 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Cool! By the way, is it g1/g2 only, or more comprehensive than that? Now if IDW would just put out an officially translated set of the Japanese g1 comics, I can die in peace...
::::G1/G2/Japanese/Bonus Material.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 00:44, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

If you're still searching for the artwork, i have Action Master Bumblebee's card and the box for an Action Master Sprocket (what do you mean "both"? the only Sprockets on TFWiki seem to be G1 and Shattered Glass, and only one of those even HAS a toy to have any packaging art). Hopefully i can scan what i have and e-mail you soon.
[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] 01:20, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:Hey there, Rhymus. Do you literally mean the actual card, or do you have the card art? Generally scans from the packages themselves have been too low resolution for us to work with. Mostly we're working with one of three things: original artwork, photo negatives of the original artwork used for archival, or first generation chrome positives (transparencies) of the first generation artwork used for advertising production. Do you have one of these?
:
:(By 'both' I mean both Sprocket's individual robot form, and him riding in his car.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 11:38, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
::Sorry, i only have the packaging. Somewhere. Guess i can stop looking for it. [[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] 20:06, 4 November 2013 (EST)

== Beast Wars: Uprising characters ==

If I may ask, are the Decepticon Builder [[Zoom Out]] and Autobot Builder [[Override (BWU)|Override]] in "[[Broken Windshields]]" based in any way on 2007 movie [[Zoom Out 25X]] and 2010 toyline/movieverse [[Override (TF 2010)|Override]]? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:52, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
:It's definitely Real Gear Robot Zoom Out for Zoom Out, but Override is based on her Cybertron character. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:59, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
::Correct.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 15:16, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
:::Thanks! [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:37, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
::::By the way, was [[Override (BWU)|Override]]'s appearance in "Broken Windshields" based on any specific toy of her ''Cybertron'' counterpart? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:22, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
:::::In my brain she kind of [http://www.tfu.info/2005/Autobot/Override/override.htm looks like this], only, you know, hardwired into an arena and all sort of creepy and pathetic.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 16:34, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
::::::Gotcha. Thank you, Jim! [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:52, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
Why is it that thus far in ''Beast Wars: Uprising'', [[Night Viper]] has been a Predacon when all his previous appearances and his sole, mainstream toy have been Maximal? Is it a reference to something? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:54, 7 July 2015 (EDT)
:Yup, referencing Hasbro's original plans to have him be a Predacon who hooked up with Primal's crew of Maximal resistance after Megatron took over the planet. Not sure why they changed that, perhaps too complicated to work into the packaging bio. I always thought it was a neat idea and had that in the back of my head when building out the Predacon team.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 17:48, 7 July 2015 (EDT)

== Rook page character ==

If I am correct in understanding that you are the author of "[[Rook - Axiom Nexus News: Investigative Journalist]]", is the criminal profiler Torca the Beast Era one or a new Transcendent Technomorph version? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:24, 10 July 2015 (EDT)
:Sorry, I'm one member of a team working on that page, and I didn't write the post in question.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:02, 11 July 2015 (EDT)

== You ==
So, you really are the Jim Sorenson. Did you worked at Marvel? I think I remember seeing your name in a Marvel related site.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 20 July 2015 (EDT)
:I'm really *A* Jim Sorenson. I am THIS [[Jim Sorenson]]. I don't think I've done any work for Marvel, but I've done plenty for [[Fun Publications]] and [[IDW Publishing]]. Perhaps that's what you're thinking of.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:05, 21 July 2015 (EDT)
::Oh, sorry, my bad.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 23:10, 26 July 2015 (EDT)
:::Also, the title is a bit weird, sorry lol.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:10, 27 July 2015 (EDT)
::::Also, these Universal Stream things is awesome, I like alternate universe stories, you're a genius.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:20, 28 July 2015 (EDT)
:::::Thanks. Glad that you're enjoying them. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:35, 28 July 2015 (EDT)

== Child of Primus Whirl ==

Where has it ever been said that Child of Primus Whirl comes from Aurex 405.0 Epsilon like King Atlas? Both King Atlas and a Whirl are in the Cauldron in "[[Escape (Universe)|Escape]]" but "[[Force of Habit]]" shows King Atlas's subordinate Whirl as one of the last survivors on Combatron after King Atlas's disappearance. I can believe that Whirl was abducted later but where in fiction has that ever been said? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:17, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:"[[Force of Habit]]" showed that both King Atlas and Whirl come from the planet [[Combatron (planet)|Combatron]], which is in the ''Cybertron'' cartoon Club fiction continuity (Aurex 405.0 Epsilon). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 14:29, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, so, you're thinking that it's a DIFFERENT Whirl? Possible I suppose. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:33, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:::Well I'm just saying that we've never seen FunPub Cybertron Whirl ever getting abducted. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:33, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::::I'm sold. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:35, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
While we're on the subject of the Children of Primus, I would like to ask you for a little help if possible. You see, the reason I put Dreadwind and Smokejumper on the Children of Primus list is because their pages were tagged as Children of Primus since before I joined the wiki this year. I saw from G1 Sunstorm page that his profile in the sole 3H [[The Official Transformers Collectors' Club Magazine issue 1|club magazine issue]] marked him as Child of Primus, and I deduced that the other guys with profiles in the magazine must all have had Children/Minion affiliations listed. Same with the guys with profiles in ''The Wreckers'' #2 "[[Betrayal]]" director's cut. All of their profiles in that issue seem to mark them as Children/Minions despite them not appearing in the main ''Universe'' comic. If you or anyone you know has the original publications, could you check them? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:29, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
:Yeah, ok, dug out my old issues. Sure 'nuff, that's where it's from. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:31, 31 July 2015 (EDT)
::Thank you. And if I may ask, can Dreadwind and Smokejumper's profiles in the 3H club magazine retroactively be assigned to their RID or Armada incarnations? And what about the profile for Sam's Club Optimus Prime? The wiki's page for [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] cites the profile in saying that as a member of the Dimensional Patrol, he was abducted along with Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus, but Side Burn is not among the escapees in [[:File:TFUjailbreak.jpg|the jailbreak scene in "Escape"]]. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:31, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Nothing in Dreadwind or Smokejumper incarnations specifies where they might be from. Sam's Club Optimus is definitely a Robots in Disguise bot, with explicit reference to capturing Galvatron and delivering him to Cybertron. After this, he studied "xeno-biological ecosystems throughout the universe" until "evil threatened the temporal and spacial nexus located near the planet Earth," whereupon he rejoined his comrades on Earth and founded the Dimensional Patrol, "a team of transwarp specialsts and rnowned warriors from the Autobot ranks." No mention is given as to who's on the team. It's definitely pre-Universe, as Unicron grabbed him and other members of the Dimensional Patrol to participate in the Universe War.
:::Tell you what... you make a skeleton page for the Dimensional Patrol, I'll fill in the details.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 00:42, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Gotcha. And I'm going to go with Armada for Children of Primus Dreadwind and Smokejumper because the profiles are in the same issue as the MegaWing Galvatron instructions and because RID Dreadwind and Smokejumper are not among the Shell Game Decepticons mentioned in Ask Vector Prime. And I'll take off the Dimensional Patrol detail from Side Burn's page because he's not mentioned in the Sam's Club Optimus profile. And also because a regular colored one, plausibly the cartoon one, appeared freshly abducted in the 2004 OTFCC voice actor play. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:51, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Good, I was going to suggest you remove that from Side Burn, since it's a reasonable inference (perhaps as a note), but not definite. BTW, is there some way I could chat with you off-line about some of this stuff? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:00, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::How about email? Do you use the one listed on Disciples of Boltax? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:23, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Yup, that's a good one. The same one we stick in the acknowledgment pages of all of our books.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 01:25, 1 August 2015 (EDT)

==Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed==
I want to ask something, is [[Aurex 006.0 Kappa]] the flash Game Primus Unleashed? I'm asking this because I'm not too sure but I assumed its the universe of that flash game because Vector Prime's answer was about Unicron Singularity, like in the game and since you're the writer of Ask Vector Prime, I wanted to ask.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 08:20, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
:Yes, that was my intention. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:00, 30 September 2015 (EDT)
::Ok thanks.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 11:59, 30 September 2015 (EDT)

==Universe Soundwave and Space Case==
Question. For the past few months, you and other writers on Ask Vector Prime have revealed the universal origins and backstory of some of the Autobots and Decepticons that were released in the Transformers Universe (2003) toyline(and let me give you a big thank you for revealing those backstories, especially for the ones that were part of the 2001 Robots in Disguise continuity). However, the only Universe toys that didn't get a backstory were Soundwave and Space Case. Let me add Air Raid(who came packaged with Wind Sheer)too while I am it. People always ask on AVP for their backstory and universe of origin, but no answer is provided about them. Is there a specific reason for this? I'm just curious. Keep up the good work! [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] ([[User talk:Crossblades|talk]]) 18:31, 14 December 2015 (EDT)
:I'm not Jim, just a friend who wrote for AVP once - but I think I can answer this pretty clear cut: These kind of wiki-led questions are generally comparitively boring to write and do a disservice to AVP as a story medium. If he or any of the other writers have an idea that's actually fun and a question worded as if it's something other than wiki-bait, it'll get answered - but with such a high volume of questions it's likely difficult to find time for what borders on the inane. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 18:56, 14 December 2015 (EST)
::So how would you go about asking a question about Soundwave and Space Case without making it seem its wiki-bait? Weird question, I know, but it seems lately AVP wants us to avoid asking certain types of questions. [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] ([[User talk:Crossblades|talk]]) 19:07, 14 December 2015 (EDT)
:::Feel free to do that, but I don't really see why you need to ask about that here. You can ask Vector Prime whatever you want, but he reserves the right not to answer boring wiki-bait questions. The end. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:40, 14 December 2015 (EST)

== BWU Scavenger ==

As pointed out [[Talk:Scavenger (BW)|here,]] there seems to be a discrepancy in the BWU Scavenger's timeline. Did you intend them to be different characters, the same guy returned, or was there just a mix-up? (And yeah, I know author intent and all that, but it probably makes sense as an informed decision for what should go on which page.) --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 10:42, 11 January 2016 (EST)
:Is there a mix-up? Or are there multiple Scavengers running around in the Beast Era? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:34, 3 February 2016 (EST)
::[[Scavenger (BW)]] and [[Scavenger (BM)]]. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:41, 3 February 2016 (EST)

==About Clutch and Warpath==

In regards to renegade rhetoric and ask vector prime, you mentioned the universal origins of certain decepticon/predacons turned renegades, like Monstrous who is possibly from the Uniend cluster and Pow Wow, Breeze, and Oddball from the Aurex Cluster before they came to Axiom Nexus. However, it was never revealed where Clutch and Warpath originally came from. I was wondering if perhaps this was intentional so we could come up with our own conclusion where they came from(I personally think they are from Viron cluster)or is something being planned for them in the future that you don't want to give too much away? -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 17:27, 27 February 2016. (EST)
:Not an oversight. I left it to your imaginations, or future authors to run with, or for me to write them into a future story. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Fair enough. Cool, thanks for the reply -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 16:10, 27 February 2016. (EST)

== "Drop me a line" ==

Dropped! --[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 14:33, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
:Your old email still work? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 00:24, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
::AOL ''works'', I just don't check it. I e-mailed you my current address.
::(Does your old e-mail still work?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] ([[User talk:Derik|talk]]) 17:27, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

==A question about Viron 102.0 Beta==

So I was looking over at one of your old Ask Vector Prime posts, the one where you spoke about "Air Attack Optimus Primal" and the spark war that took place in Viron 102.0 Beta. There is something I'm curious about and it's in regards to that Universe's Vehicons. Which Vehicons, at least in your mind, participated in that Spark War against the "shipwrecked" Maximals composed of Primal, Silverbolt, Rattrap, and Rhinox? This really wasn't elaborated upon, unless this is one of those things where you want us to use our imaginations -[[User:Slyhype|Slyhype]] ([[User talk:Slyhype|talk]]) 24:20, 19 September 2016. (EST)

== Leatherhide image ==

Any chance we could get a nice upload for [[:File:NotAllMegatrons-leatherhide.jpg|this image]]? I tried extracting it from the PDF, but the image is actually 5k+ separate files for every line... [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:27, 28 December 2016 (EST)
:Here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwBhmf92x_UENDZFMzZNNmZiVFk/view?usp=drivesdk --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:53, 29 December 2016 (EST)
::Grazie! [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:32, 29 December 2016 (EST)

== Nitro Zeus ==
Finished it for you. I left it on Galvatron's page because of how it was written, hope that's ok. [[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:45, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

== Does ''[[Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac]]'' imply that [[Daira]] is the home planet of the [[Stone Army]]? ==

After noticing that [[Spensifax B]] neighbored the [[Intruder|Intruder Empire]] in ''The Complete AllSpark Almanac'', I realized why the empire included [[Cresta Superior]] and [[Kyron]]. But, I was wondering if Daira also being a part of the Intruder Empire is implying that it's the unnamed home planet of the Stone Army and monks from ''[[The Transformers: Drift - Empire of Stone|Empire of Stone]]''.
:Boy, that sure sounds like the kind of thing I'd do, doesn't it? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 23:48, 25 February 2026 (EST)

File:MarvelUS-66.jpg

2025-08-21T22:41:47Z

Jimsorenson: Inker

{{MarvelUScover|[[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] for all [[Matrix of Leadership|the bauble]]!|66|All Fall Down|[[Ron Frenz]] w/ [[Bob Layton]]|90}}

[[Category:Optimus Prime images]]

File:MarvelUS-66.jpg

2025-08-21T22:37:51Z

Jimsorenson: Artist misatributed

Jon Bailey

2025-07-07T17:47:50Z

Jimsorenson: I don't feelnul tk actually making bop it! page just yet

{{disambig3|Jon}}
[[Image:Jon Bailey Actor Black&White.jpg|right200px|thumb|Bewbs!]]
'''Jon Bailey''' (born [[March 3]], [[1979]]) is an American voice actor. A long-time Transformers fan, his first Transformers voice acting gig was at [[BotCon 2015]], in the script reading of "[[The Return of Blurr]]". Prior to this, he had voiced Optimus Prime in various fan projects as well as a parody of the character in an episode of ''The High Fructose Adventures of Annoying Orange''. In the time since, he has become a sort of go-to Optimus voice for [[Hasbro]] when [[Peter Cullen]] is unavailable due to scheduling or budget reasons.

Outside of ''Transformers'' work, Jon is best known as the Epic Voice of [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL86F4D497FD3CACCE Honest Trailers] for ''Screen Junkies''. He has also provided voice work for the web series ''{{w|How It Should Have Ended}}'' and various video games, most notably the Council Spokesman in ''{{w|XCOM 2}}''... who he voices with the same Peter Cullen impression that he uses for Optimus.

{{bigquote|Because the only thing more ruthless than [[The Transformers: The Movie|this script]] is the [[to sell toys|shameless corporate greed]] that inspired it.|Jon Bailey at his finest.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub12DkmRUnI Honest Trailers | The Transformers: The Movie]</ref>}}

==Starring...==

===''Transformers: Crossovers'' (toyline)===
*[[Darth Vader]] to [[Darth Vader#StarDestroyer|Star Destroyer]] (Anakin Skywalker voice)

===''Transformers Animated''===
*[[Siren (Animated)#Animated cartoon|Siren]] (BotCon 2015)
*[[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]] (BotCon 2015)
*[[Sari Sumdac (Animated)|Sari Sumdac]] (''burping,'' BotCon 2015)

===Ask Vector Prime===
* [[Optimus Prime (TransTech)#TransTech|Optimus Prime]]

===''Transformers: Combiner Wars''===
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)#Prime Wars Trilogy cartoons|Optimus Prime]]

===''Bumblebee''===
*[[Shockwave (Movie)#Bumblebee film|Shockwave]]
*[[Soundwave (ROTF)#Bumblebee film|Soundwave]]
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Bumblebee film|Optimus Prime]] (trailers only, see Notes)

===''Transformers: Tactical Arena''===
*Optimus Prime
*[[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]]
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]]
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]
*[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]

===''Transformers: Beyond Reality''===
*[[Barricade (IDW)|Barricade]]
*[[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]]
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]
*Megatron
*Optimus Prime
*[[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]]
*[[Shrapnel (G1)|Sharpshot]]
*Shockwave
*Soundwave
*Starscream

===''Transformers One''===
*[[Soundwave (One)|Soundwave]]

===''Transformers: Galactic Trials''===
*Megatron
*Soundwave
*Shockwave

==Merchandise==
*[[bop it!]] [[Optimus Prime (G1)/merchandise|Optimus Prime]] voice

==Notes==
*Bailey provided the temporary voice track for [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] in ''[[Bumblebee (film)|Bumblebee]]'', with the studio intending to replace his voice with that of Prime's regular actor, [[Peter Cullen]], once everything had been finalized. However, some of Bailey's temp tracks were accidentally left in the film's marketing material. The official trailer released in September 2018 features Cullen's voice, while an international trailer released at roughly the same time features Bailey, with a teaser released a few days earlier splitting the difference between the two. Bailey also auditioned for multiple characters, including [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]], meaning he was originally meant to speak (whether Bailey was originally going to get the role or not is unknown).<ref>[https://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/bumblebee-movie-voice-actor-jon-bailey-talks-about-his-experience/42553/ Seibertron article about Bailey's experience]</ref>

==Reference==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://www.jonbaileyvo.com/Pages/default.aspx Jon Bailey's official website]
*[https://twitter.com/EpicVoiceGuy Jon Bailey's Twitter]
*[https://www.youtube.com/user/jon3pnt0 Jon Bailey's Youtube channel]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3929163/ Jon Bailey on IMDB]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Bailey, Jon}}
[[Category:English voice actors]]
[[Category:Hasbro Studios]]
[[Category:Fandom]]

David Schleinkofer

2025-04-22T04:21:32Z

Jimsorenson:

{{disambig3|David}}
'''David Schleinkofer''' ([[January 29]], [[1951]] - [[April 20]], [[2025]]) was a professional illustrator. His paintings graced many science fiction novels in the late seventies and early eighties, including ''Robotech'' and ''Battlestar Galactica'' books. He illustrated for companies including [[Hasbro]], [[Milton Bradley]] and [[Mattel]], and provided artwork for magazines, video games and advertising. As painting work for science fiction dried up during the 90s, he switched to mostly paints fine art and landscapes in his later years.

==Illustration work==
*[[Package art#Back of the box art|1984 boxart mural]]
*"[[Sun Raid (Listen 'n Play)|Sun Raid]]" cover and illustrations

==External links==
*[http://www.flickr.com/photos/38157193@N05/ David Schleinkofer's Flickr]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Schleinkofer, David}}
[[Category:Generation 1 packaging artists]]
[[Category:Hasbro packaging artists]]
[[Category:Illustrators]]

David Schleinkofer

2025-04-22T04:21:09Z

Jimsorenson:

{{disambig3|David}}
'''David Schleinkofer''' ([[January 29]], [[1951]] - [[April 20]] [[2025]]) was a professional illustrator. His paintings graced many science fiction novels in the late seventies and early eighties, including ''Robotech'' and ''Battlestar Galactica'' books. He illustrated for companies including [[Hasbro]], [[Milton Bradley]] and [[Mattel]], and provided artwork for magazines, video games and advertising. As painting work for science fiction dried up during the 90s, he switched to mostly paints fine art and landscapes in his later years.

==Illustration work==
*[[Package art#Back of the box art|1984 boxart mural]]
*"[[Sun Raid (Listen 'n Play)|Sun Raid]]" cover and illustrations

==External links==
*[http://www.flickr.com/photos/38157193@N05/ David Schleinkofer's Flickr]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Schleinkofer, David}}
[[Category:Generation 1 packaging artists]]
[[Category:Hasbro packaging artists]]
[[Category:Illustrators]]

Talk:Pete Sinclair

2025-03-28T16:11:51Z

Jimsorenson: /* Page Locked? */

==Pete's Robot Convention Items==
Should we mention every one of it's items on their respective character pages's (included toy pages) note sections? [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 13:38, 24 June 2017 (EDT)

==unsavory aspects==
should we add something about the type of person he is?--[[User:Kitsune1|Kitsune1]] ([[User talk:Kitsune1|talk]]) 23:29, 22 July 2020 (EDT)
:I mean, the mainpic caption is right there. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:33, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
::That doesn't add any info beyond "he's a douche," and considering everything I think some elaboration would be useful. Voxel 23:20, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Considering the sheer number of fans gone official, and how so many of them have long and public internet histories, this wiki has erred on the side of ''not'' dwelling on their Internet fights, except if they have actually defrauded customers / staff. His unsavory aspects are off-topic. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 23:28, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
::::Didn't he actually scam people with badly painted toys he claimed to be legit? That seems like "defrauding customers" to me. [[User:Planned Planethood|Voxel]] ([[User talk:Planned Planethood|talk]]) 13:24, 13 September 2020 (EDT)
::::IMO there should be [i]some[/i] sort of overview of whatever he did, in order to make the references to him on other pages, as well as the mainpic caption, make sense. Despite Cyberlink420's attempt to use it as a dismissal, the mainpic caption does not, in fact, actually say anything substantive; it only raises questions that the page currently does not answer. The job of a wiki is to inform, not make people even more confused. If you can't actually be bothered to explain, you shouldn't make the references in the first place. [[User:ZTS is Very Sorry|ZTS is Very Sorry]] ([[User talk:ZTS is Very Sorry|talk]]) 01:58, 23 November 2020 (EST)

==yet more unsavory aspects==
contraversy section
looking on here, im not the first person calling for one. can we restore my edits? heres the segment

{Pete Sinclair is widely disliked in the modern transformers fandom for his reactionary tendencies, often tweeting or liking conservative posts on any account he has access too. This includes the former, officially Hasbro affiliated, BotCon's twitter account, where he liked several highly inflammatory posts.
Pete Sinclair would later go on to harass members of the transformers fandom who opposed the New BotCon's affiliation with him. In May 2021, Pete would encourage people to "go live their life", ignoring COVID 19 lockdown provisions as "The strains are NEVER going away, Just like the flu. You will have to get shots for the rest of your life and even then it's far from a guarantee"} {{unsigned|Pr0t0!}}
:Not unless it becomes relevant to licensed product. AT MOST, the Botcon Twitter - and even then, less is more. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 11 May 2021 (EDT)
::His exact politics isn't relevant to product or BotCon, but the harassment of fans does seem relevant. It's something directed at Transformers fans by a figure involved in product/cons and it's impacting on how people view the new BotCon (and how younger ones view ''the old'' BotCon). --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 06:25, 16 May 2021 (GMT)

== Character bios ==

I have all of them, I had the good sense to save them all long ago. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:18, 7 January 2022 (EST)

== Night Shining was a licensee for unofficial BotCon ==

Through some people I know who are involved in the current unofficial BotCon, apparently Night Shining was only a licensee selling BotCon product, with that unofficial BotCon history book being one of the most notable products under their license. Other than that, I'm not sure Night Shining played that big of a role, and even if it did, it wasn't for very long. Agabyss are the current owners and organizers of BotCon. I think a small tweak to that section in the intro may need to be made to make that a little clearer. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 03:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)
:Plus, Night Shining is officially closing up shop at the end of this year, and are clearing out all of their merchandise (and have been trying to for a long time now), so they won't be a licensee to anyone, or even exist as a company, anymore. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 28 November 2023 (EST)
::That too, yeah. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 14:52, 28 November 2023 (EST)

==Page Locked?==
I was going to update his credits but can't. Is the page locked? Could I get a brief unlock if so? Or maybe I'm just a dope and have forgotten how to do this. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 09:46, 28 March 2025 (EDT)
:It was locked as a preventative measure back in 2021. I think enough time has passed now that it's safe to unlock it again. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 10:33, 28 March 2025 (EDT)
::Well, I've done what I needed to do so if you want to re-lock it I have no objections. Or leave it live, I'm good either way. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:11, 28 March 2025 (EDT)

Pete Sinclair

2025-03-28T15:47:32Z

Jimsorenson: /* Writer */

{{disambig3|Peter}}

[[Image:Petesinclair.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Alienating fans with functional moral compasses since 2016.]]
'''Pete Sinclair''' formerly worked for the now-defunct [[Fun Publications]], most notably in editing [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club magazine]], contributing to its corresponding fiction, answering questions across various fan message boards, and serving as a highly ineffectual public relations officer.

Behind the scenes, Sinclair helped run [[BotCon]]s for several years starting with [[3H Productions|3H Enterprises]], keeping panels running smoothly and heading events such as the charity auction. When 3H split apart in 2002 and the "primary" Transformers fan convention lost the use of the BotCon name, instead becoming [[BotCon|OTFCC]], Sinclair joined with [[Jon Hartman|Jon]] and [[Karl Hartman]] in launching the unofficial BotCon 2004 convention. When the official convention license moved to Fun Publications and got the BotCon name back, Sinclair moved to FP as a fandom consultant. He worked for them as a full-time employee until [[Hasbro]] revoked BotCon's license in 2016.

In 2020, a different management team began to announce and gauge interest for upcoming BotCon conventions, once again as unofficial and unlicensed events. Sinclair continued working with them, now under the auspices of his own company, Night Shining, Inc.

Sinclair later repurposed the official TFCC Twitter as his personal account and continued to use it for several years until 2021, when a series of escalating incidents—posting the kind of stuff that gets your aunt or uncle banned on Facebook, coupled with repeated stalking and harassment of his critics—resulted in the account getting deactivated. As a result, quite a few official social media features have been rendered inaccessible, such as character bios and background information on Collectors' Club releases.

==Fiction==
===Prevenge===
{{voiceactor|Himself (English)}}
{{storylink|Prevenge}}
{{charstubfiction}}

==Managing editor==
*''[[Crossing Over]]''
*''[[Transcendent]]''
*''[[Reunification]]''
*''[[The Coming Storm]]''
*''[[A Flash Forward]]''
*''[[Battle Lines]]''
*''[[Beast Wars Shattered Glass]]''
*''[[Alone Together]]''
*''[[Another Light]]''
*''[[Of Masters and Mayhem]]''
*"[[Games of Deception]]"
*"[[Shattered Glass (issue)|Shattered Glass]]"
*"[[Wings of Honor]]"
*"[[Generation 2: Redux]]"
*"[[The Stunti-Con Job]]"
*[[The Wreckers: Finale Part 1|Wreckers: Finale Part I]]
*"[[Invasion (issue)|Invasion]]"
*"[[Termination]]"
*"[[A Common Foe]]"
*"[[Hoist the Flag]]"
*"[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]"
*"[[Armada Volume 5]]"

==Editor==
*[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collectors' Club Magazine]] issue #5 onwards

==Writer==
*"[[Dawn of Future's Past]]" (co-written with [[Forest Lee]])
*"[[At Fight's End]]" (co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*''The Coming Storm'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Battle Lines'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''A Flash Forward'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Beast Wars Shattered Glass'' (co-written with [[Ben Yee]] and [[Matt Frank]])
*''[[Alone Together: Prologue]] (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Another Light''(co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*''Of Masters and Mayhem'' (co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*"Invasion" (co-written with Ben Yee)
*"[[Timeless]]" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*"Cybertron's Most Wanted" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*"[[Another Con]]" comic strips in [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collector's Club magazine]] (with [[Rob Meyer]])

==Story==
*"[[The Razor's Edge]]" (with Ben Yee)
*''The Coming Storm''
*''Battle Lines''
*"Dawn of Future's Past"
*"[[Games of Deception]]" (with Forest Lee and Ben Yee)
*"Shattered Glass"

==Notes==
* When asked at the final panel of [[BotCon 2016]] what the one unproduced exclusive he wished had been made was, he answered that a [[Starscream (Armada)/toys#Generations|''Generations'' Armada Starscream]] retool into [[Jetstorm (BM)|''Beast Machines'' Jetstorm]] had been planned for that year. He also wished for a [[Rodimus (SG)|''Shattered Glass'' Rodimus]] out of [[Springer (G1)#Voyager|''Generations'' Springer]].

==External links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1e8EKoW4bc Transformers For Your Listening Pleasure interview with Pete Sinclair]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sinclair, Pete}}
[[Category:Editors]]
[[Category:Real people]]
[[Category:Writers]]

Pete Sinclair

2025-03-28T15:42:04Z

Jimsorenson:

{{disambig3|Peter}}

[[Image:Petesinclair.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Alienating fans with functional moral compasses since 2016.]]
'''Pete Sinclair''' formerly worked for the now-defunct [[Fun Publications]], most notably in editing [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club magazine]], contributing to its corresponding fiction, answering questions across various fan message boards, and serving as a highly ineffectual public relations officer.

Behind the scenes, Sinclair helped run [[BotCon]]s for several years starting with [[3H Productions|3H Enterprises]], keeping panels running smoothly and heading events such as the charity auction. When 3H split apart in 2002 and the "primary" Transformers fan convention lost the use of the BotCon name, instead becoming [[BotCon|OTFCC]], Sinclair joined with [[Jon Hartman|Jon]] and [[Karl Hartman]] in launching the unofficial BotCon 2004 convention. When the official convention license moved to Fun Publications and got the BotCon name back, Sinclair moved to FP as a fandom consultant. He worked for them as a full-time employee until [[Hasbro]] revoked BotCon's license in 2016.

In 2020, a different management team began to announce and gauge interest for upcoming BotCon conventions, once again as unofficial and unlicensed events. Sinclair continued working with them, now under the auspices of his own company, Night Shining, Inc.

Sinclair later repurposed the official TFCC Twitter as his personal account and continued to use it for several years until 2021, when a series of escalating incidents—posting the kind of stuff that gets your aunt or uncle banned on Facebook, coupled with repeated stalking and harassment of his critics—resulted in the account getting deactivated. As a result, quite a few official social media features have been rendered inaccessible, such as character bios and background information on Collectors' Club releases.

==Fiction==
===Prevenge===
{{voiceactor|Himself (English)}}
{{storylink|Prevenge}}
{{charstubfiction}}

==Managing editor==
*''[[Crossing Over]]''
*''[[Transcendent]]''
*''[[Reunification]]''
*''[[The Coming Storm]]''
*''[[A Flash Forward]]''
*''[[Battle Lines]]''
*''[[Beast Wars Shattered Glass]]''
*''[[Alone Together]]''
*''[[Another Light]]''
*''[[Of Masters and Mayhem]]''
*"[[Games of Deception]]"
*"[[Shattered Glass (issue)|Shattered Glass]]"
*"[[Wings of Honor]]"
*"[[Generation 2: Redux]]"
*"[[The Stunti-Con Job]]"
*[[The Wreckers: Finale Part 1|Wreckers: Finale Part I]]
*"[[Invasion (issue)|Invasion]]"
*"[[Termination]]"
*"[[A Common Foe]]"
*"[[Hoist the Flag]]"
*"[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]"
*"[[Armada Volume 5]]"

==Editor==
*[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collectors' Club Magazine]] issue #5 onwards

==Writer==
*"[[Dawn of Future's Past]]" (co-writen with [[Forest Lee]])
*"[[At Fight's End]]" (co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*''The Coming Storm'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Battle Lines'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''A Flash Forward'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Beast Wars Shattered Glass'' (co-written with [[Ben Yee]] and [[Matt Frank]])
*''[[Alone Together: Prologue]] (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Another Light''(co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*''Of Masters and Mayhem'' (co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*"Invasion" (co-written with Ben Yee)
*"[[Timeless]]" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*"Cybertron's Most Wanted" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*"[[Another Con]]" comic strips in [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collector's Club magazine]] (with [[Rob Meyer]])

==Story==
*"[[The Razor's Edge]]" (with Ben Yee)
*''The Coming Storm''
*''Battle Lines''
*"Dawn of Future's Past"
*"[[Games of Deception]]" (with Forest Lee and Ben Yee)
*"Shattered Glass"

==Notes==
* When asked at the final panel of [[BotCon 2016]] what the one unproduced exclusive he wished had been made was, he answered that a [[Starscream (Armada)/toys#Generations|''Generations'' Armada Starscream]] retool into [[Jetstorm (BM)|''Beast Machines'' Jetstorm]] had been planned for that year. He also wished for a [[Rodimus (SG)|''Shattered Glass'' Rodimus]] out of [[Springer (G1)#Voyager|''Generations'' Springer]].

==External links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1e8EKoW4bc Transformers For Your Listening Pleasure interview with Pete Sinclair]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sinclair, Pete}}
[[Category:Editors]]
[[Category:Real people]]
[[Category:Writers]]

Pete Sinclair

2025-03-28T15:04:41Z

Jimsorenson:

{{disambig3|Peter}}

[[Image:Petesinclair.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Alienating fans with functional moral compasses since 2016.]]
'''Pete Sinclair''' formerly worked for the now-defunct [[Fun Publications]], most notably in editing [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club magazine]], contributing to its corresponding fiction, answering questions across various fan message boards, and serving as a highly ineffectual public relations officer.

Behind the scenes, Sinclair helped run [[BotCon]]s for several years starting with [[3H Productions|3H Enterprises]], keeping panels running smoothly and heading events such as the charity auction. When 3H split apart in 2002 and the "primary" Transformers fan convention lost the use of the BotCon name, instead becoming [[BotCon|OTFCC]], Sinclair joined with [[Jon Hartman|Jon]] and [[Karl Hartman]] in launching the unofficial BotCon 2004 convention. When the official convention license moved to Fun Publications and got the BotCon name back, Sinclair moved to FP as a fandom consultant. He worked for them as a full-time employee until [[Hasbro]] revoked BotCon's license in 2016.

In 2020, a different management team began to announce and gauge interest for upcoming BotCon conventions, once again as unofficial and unlicensed events. Sinclair continued working with them, now under the auspices of his own company, Night Shining, Inc.

Sinclair later repurposed the official TFCC Twitter as his personal account and continued to use it for several years until 2021, when a series of escalating incidents—posting the kind of stuff that gets your aunt or uncle banned on Facebook, coupled with repeated stalking and harassment of his critics—resulted in the account getting deactivated. As a result, quite a few official social media features have been rendered inaccessible, such as character bios and background information on Collectors' Club releases.

==Fiction==
===Prevenge===
{{voiceactor|Himself (English)}}
{{storylink|Prevenge}}
{{charstubfiction}}

==Managing editor==
*''[[Crossing Over]]''
*''[[Transcendent]]''
*''[[Reunification]]''
*''[[The Coming Storm]]''
*''[[A Flash Forward]]''
*''[[Battle Lines]]''
*''[[Beast Wars Shattered Glass]]''
*''[[Alone Together]]''
*''[[Another Light]]''
*''[[Of Masters and Mayhem]]''
*"[[Games of Deception]]"
*"[[Shattered Glass (issue)|Shattered Glass]]"
*"[[Wings of Honor]]"
*"[[Generation 2: Redux]]"
*"[[The Stunti-Con Job]]"
*[[The Wreckers: Finale Part 1|Wreckers: Finale Part I]]
*"[[Invasion (issue)|Invasion]]"
*"[[Termination]]"
*"[[A Common Foe]]"
*"[[Hoist the Flag]]"
*"[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]"

==Editor==
*[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collectors' Club Magazine]] issue #5 onwards

==Writer==
*"[[Dawn of Future's Past]]" (co-writer with [[Forest Lee]])
*''The Coming Storm'' (co-written with [[Jesse Wittenrich]])
*''Battle Lines'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''A Flash Forward'' (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Beast Wars Shattered Glass'' (co-written with [[Ben Yee]] and [[Matt Frank]])
*''[[Alone Together: Prologue]] (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*''Another Light''
*''Of Masters and Mayhem''
*"Invasion" (co-written with Ben Yee)
*"[[Timeless]]" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)
*"[[Another Con]]" comic strips in [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)|Collector's Club magazine]] (with [[Rob Meyer]])
*"Cybertron's Most Wanted" (co-written with Jesse Wittenrich)

==Story==
*"[[The Razor's Edge]]" (with Ben Yee)
*''The Coming Storm''
*''Battle Lines''
*"Dawn of Future's Past"
*"[[Games of Deception]]" (with Forest Lee and Ben Yee)
*"Shattered Glass"

==Notes==
* When asked at the final panel of [[BotCon 2016]] what the one unproduced exclusive he wished had been made was, he answered that a [[Starscream (Armada)/toys#Generations|''Generations'' Armada Starscream]] retool into [[Jetstorm (BM)|''Beast Machines'' Jetstorm]] had been planned for that year. He also wished for a [[Rodimus (SG)|''Shattered Glass'' Rodimus]] out of [[Springer (G1)#Voyager|''Generations'' Springer]].

==External links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1e8EKoW4bc Transformers For Your Listening Pleasure interview with Pete Sinclair]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sinclair, Pete}}
[[Category:Editors]]
[[Category:Real people]]
[[Category:Writers]]

Talk:Pete Sinclair

2025-03-28T13:46:59Z

Jimsorenson:

Binder of Revelation

2024-12-08T19:12:19Z

Jimsorenson: /* Distant Planets */

[[Image:Hasbrobible-OPrimedescription.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Fusion canon.]]
The "'''Binder of Revelation'''" is the informal name used by [[Hasbro]] creatives for the 354-page [[production bible]] that undergirds fiction in the [[Aligned continuity family]].<ref>{{citesocial|quote=As overseers of the brand they work closely with all of the different internal departments as well, connecting the toys via the right looks and names to the market. As archivists they maintain the Transformers bible (currently at 354 pages), also known as the “Binder of Revelation.”|link=https://web.archive.org/web/20141004160956/https://www.figures.com/forums/news/13305-botcon-2011-hasbro-panel-report.html|name=Scott Rubin|site=Figures.com|title=BotCon 2011 - Hasbro Panel Report|year=2011|monht=06|day=07|archived=y}}</ref> Co-written by [[Aaron Archer]], [[Rik Alvarez]], and other ''[[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' experts from Hasbro (with help from outside partners [[Fabian Nicieza]] and the [[fandom]]), it charts billions of years of history, combining concepts from all previous "[[franchise|generations]]" of ''Transformers'' lore.

Didn't quite turn out as planned.

{{bigquote|cost over $250k to produce - lives in the bottom of drawer|[[Rik Alvarez]]'s 2015 slideshow at TFcon Charlotte<ref name="beast hunters">{{citesocial|quote=New Design Director at Hasbro — Archer moved to VP. [He said that] Optimus should be '''GREEN!''' Disregarded HasLab — Pred Symbol. New team new rules: Previous team [said] NO BEASTS, NO FEMALES (Battle for Airachnid — FIGHT!) New team [said] WE NEED BEASTS!!! [as a] Way to reuse existing tooling [and] Keep costs down. [''Beast Hunters''] was a total curve ball to HasLab and Studio team. Design [gets] mad that ''Beast Hunters'' toys [are] not in [the] show. Studio [gets] mad that season 3 [is] scrapped and ''Beast Hunters'' is the new story. This lead to different designs — Studio vs Design — ''Beast Hunters'' Optimus. HasLab [was] stuck in the middle — ''Prime'' issues killed [the Binder of Revelation] and future show plans (Pirates/Season 4-ish). [The Binder of Revelation] — cost over $250K to produce — lives in the bottom of a drawer|link=https://web.archive.org/web/20151022013304/http://sunnybutte.tumblr.com/image/131368170623|name=Rik Alvarez|site=TFcon Charlotte|year=2015}}</ref>}}

==Published material==
As an internal publication ostensibly covering years of future plans, the Binder of Revelation was strictly confidential, meaning for many years the public understanding of its contents was limited to brief glimpses or secondhand sources. ''[[Transformers Vault]]'' contains three scans of the Binder:

*[[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Orion Pax/Optimus Prime]]'s [[bio]], essentially the version of the character adapted into ''[[Transformers: Exodus]]''. It is also mentioned as a data clerk he has a keen interest in history and will often find parallels in current events (a quirk carried over in ''[[Transformers: Prime (cartoon)|Prime]]''). Furthermore, it is revealed Transformers have "polarities", equivalent to a human star sign and based on the [[Thirteen|Thirteen original Transformers]]. Optimus claims Prima and [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Alpha Trion]] as his primary and secondary polarity (but this was probably from before it was [[Transformers: The Covenant of Primus|decided]] to make Optimus himself one of the Thirteen).
*An image of [[Prima]], wielding the [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] (that contains the [[Matrix of Leadership]] in its hilt).
*A map of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] detailing locations, with a brief description and some of the characters who call it home. This was mostly followed in ''Exodus'', though the following were not mentioned:
**[[Barricade (WFC)|Barricade]] is from [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]].
**[[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]] is from [[Tarn (polity)|Tarn]].
**[[Grimlock (WFC)|Grimlock]] is from [[Simfur]].
**[[Mini-Con]]s live on [[Moonbase One|the]] [[Moonbase Two|moons]].
**[[Trypticon Asteroid Belt]] contains remnants of [[Primus]] and [[Unicron]].

Many individual pieces of artwork commissioned for the Binder have also been released separately over time, either in official publications or via the artists themselves.

==Continuity==
The Binder of Revelation charts the history of the Transformers from the beginning to the end of the [[universe (universe)|universe]].

Which universe, you might ask? Well, that's the thing.

It's clear that the Binder of Revelation was produced at a very specific point in the franchise's history: after the release of the 2007 ''Transformers'' movie, ''Transformers Animated'', and ''Revenge of the Fallen'', but before work was done on ''Transformers: Prime'' (whose showrunners were handed a copy of the production bible). While much of the Cybertronian history covered in the document is more-or-less what was depicted in ''[[Transformers: The Covenant of Primus|The Covenant of Primus]]'', the ''[[Transformers: Exodus|Exodus]]'' novel, and the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (games)|War for Cybertron]]'' video games, the sections concerned with the Transformers' time on Earth directly pull from the first two live-action movies—and indeed, ''Transformers: Prime'' itself would start from a status quo which assumes events ''similar'' to those in the first live-action film to have already taken place. Artist [[Ken Christiansen]] was clearly directed to merge the G1 and movie styles for the character designs he produced for the book, resulting in an [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] who turns into a long-nose truck, an [[Ironhide (disambiguation)|Ironhide]] with arm-mounted cannons, a green [[Ratchet (disambiguation)|Ratchet]], and a [[Sideswipe (disambiguation)|Sideswipe]] with sword-arms, among others. Characters are expressly ranked across several tiers of notability, with many B- or C-tier characters not deemed significant enough for new artwork typically recycling artwork from [[Dreamwave Productions]]' ''[[Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]'' profile series. Although the Constructicons are depicted with Dreamwave's G1-accurate art, Bonecrusher and Hook are renamed Rampage and Hightower respectively, as a compromise with the team's depiction in ''Revenge of the Fallen''. Similarly, of the Primes listed, only seven actually have the word "Prime" in their names, possibly to fit with dialogue from that film. The document sidesteps [[Slag (disambiguation)|Slag]]'s [[Trademark#The international market|controversial name]] by omitting him altogether, conflating many of his traits with [[Snarl (disambiguation)|Snarl]]. Bafflingly, maybe a third of every single character profile is given over to discussion of "Polarity"—effectively Transformers astrology based on the Thirteen Primes—to say which Primes each character is spiritually descended from. As this concept never appeared in any published media, you can see for yourself how little this helped any writer who ever worked on the franchise.

The book's later sections on human characters and worldbuilding concepts takes a far more encyclopedic, scattershot approach, jumbling together elements of the G1 cartoon, comics, ''Transformers Animated'', and the live-action movies. Again, the Binder's focus on the franchise as it existed at that specific moment in time leads to ''[[Transformers: The Veiled Threat]]'', an otherwise practically-forgotten tie-in novel to ''Revenge of the Fallen'', getting a shocking amount of airtime alongside these more-prominent pieces of media.

It seems that the Binder was left untouched until 2015, another hyperspecific point in history, when a few pages were updated and new ones added. The replaced pages are mostly those concerned with the Transformers' time on Earth; rather than summarising the events of ''Transformers: Prime'', as one might expect, the new versions summarise the events of ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon]]'' and the then-recent ''[[Transformers: Age of Extinction (film)|Age of Extinction]]''—despite the vast number of incongruities this introduces with the rest of the character profiles. New profiles are added for all of the Autobots from ''Age of Extinction'', a few characters from ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' (notably ''doubling'' the number of female Transformers mentioned in the document), the remaining three major [[combiner]]s from ''[[Combiner Wars (franchise)|Combiner Wars]]'', and [[Fortress Maximus (disambiguation)|Fortress Maximus]] from the then-upcoming ''[[Titans Return (franchise)|Titans Return]]''. The ordering of pages was reshuffled slightly; again, speaking to the fact that nobody cared about "polarity", the explanation of this concept was buried towards the back of the book.

==Themes==
Perhaps the aspect of the Binder of Revelation which has best stood the test of time, from a creative standpoint, is its clear aim to encourage the creation of ''Transformers'' stories which are ''meaningful''. The ideological conflict between Optimus Prime and Megatron, whose goals are meant to appear superficially similar, is framed as one of free will ("Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.") versus determinism ("Peace through tyranny."). Certain worldbuilding concepts—such as the fragments of Unicron left embedded in Primus, which are said to have tainted the Transformers with evil; and the "Polarities" concept, which informs the present-day characters' behaviour—seem intended to raise the question of whether it is possible to overcome one's own past, to break the cycles of war, and truly change as a society.

Granted, many of these ideas are muddled at best. Optimus Prime is expressly referred to as a "libertarian", but he is appointed ruler of Cybertron by the planet's existing power structure, and is implied to be predestined to rule through divine right; meanwhile, Megatron, who ostensibly stands opposed to liberty, spends most of his backstory as a freedom fighter liberating the oppressed people of Cybertron. In the story bible's never-realised future plans, a race of "Ultimate Transformers" (implicitly the [[Maximal]]s and [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s) would set out to colonise the universe, free of the sins and imperfections of their forebears, which is certainly something.

The back end of the Binder focuses on many of these themes through the lens of marketing psychology, with discussion of archetypes like "The Ruler" (who obtains personal mastery over something, such as a child might obtain mastery over a Transformers toy by learning how to convert it), and "The Sage" (who knows lots about the Transformers, just like us here at {{SITENAME SHORT}}).

==Contents==
* 1: Cover
* 2-5: ???<ref name="removed">Removed in 2015.</ref>
* 6-7: Franchise {{w|Log line|Logline}}
* 8: ???<ref name="removed" />

===II. Overview of the New Universe===
* 9-10: Title
* 11: Introduction
* 12-13: Epoch I — [[Age of Origins|Origins]]
* 13: Epoch II — [[War of the Primes|The War of the Primes]]
* 13-15: Epoch III — The Fall of the Primes
* 15-16: Epoch IV — [[Age of Wrath|The Age of Wraith]] {{sic}}
* 16: Epoch V — [[Golden Age|The Golden Age]]
* 16-18: Epoch VI — The Rise of the [[Decepticon]]s
* 18-20: Epoch VII — [[Great War (Prime)|The Civil War]]
* 20: Epoch VIII — [[Great Exodus|The Exodus]]
* 21: Epoch IX — [[Earth]] Activation
* 22-25: Epoch X — Ascension, Epoch XI — The Return to Cybertron, Epoch XII — [[Unicron]]<ref name="updated">Updated in 2015.</ref>
* 26: Epoch XII — Unicron (cont.), Epoch XIII — A New Universe
* 27: [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] vs. [[Megatron (disambiguation)|Megatron]]: The Fundamental Conflict of Transformers
* 28-34: ???<ref name="removed" />

===III. Heroes and Villains===
* 35-36: Title
* 37: ??? (likely introduction)<ref name="removed" />
* Autobot Character Profiles<ref name="added">New page added in 2015.</ref>
* 38: Polarity: The Astrology of Transformers, The Signs, 1. Liegeians, 2. Vecorians, 3. Nexians<ref name="moved">Moved later in 2015.</ref>
* 39: 4. Micronians, 5. Onyxians, 6. Megatronians, 7. Amalgians, 8. Soleans, 9. Quintessians, 10. Alphanians, 11. Alchemians, 12. Primians<ref name="moved" />
* 40-43: [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]] (Main)
* 44-47: [[Megatron (disambiguation)|Megatron]] (Main)<ref name="moved" />
* 48-49: [[Starscream (disambiguation)|Starscream]] (Main)<ref name="moved" />
* 50-51: [[Bumblebee (disambiguation)|Bumblebee]] (Main)
====Autobot Character Profiles====
* 52: Key art
* 53: ??? (likely "Autobot Character Profiles" title page)<ref name="removed" />
* [[Windblade (disambiguation)|Windblade]]<ref name="two added">Two new pages added in 2015.</ref>
* [[Strongarm (RID)|Strongarm]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Optimus Primal (disambiguation)|Primal]] {{sic}}<ref name="two added" />
* [[Cheetor (disambiguation)|Cheetor]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Drift (AOE)|Drift]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Hound (Movie)|Hound]]<ref name="two added" />
* 54: [[Ironhide (disambiguation)|Ironhide]] (A)
* 55: [[Jazz (disambiguation)|Jazz]] (A)
* 56: [[Ratchet (disambiguation)|Ratchet]] (A)
* 57: [[Prowl (disambiguation)|Prowl]] (B)
* 58: [[Grimlock (disambiguation)|Grimlock]] (B)
* 59: [[Sideswipe (disambiguation)|Sideswipe]] (B)
* 60: [[Jetfire (disambiguation)|Jetfire]] (B)
* 61: [[Bulkhead (disambiguation)|Bulkhead]] (C)
* 62: ???<ref name="removed" />
* [[Crosshairs (AOE)|Crosshairs]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Fixit (RID)|Fixit]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Heatwave (RB)|Heatwave]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Superion (disambiguation)|Superion]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Defensor (disambiguation)|Defensor]]<ref name="two added" />
* [[Fortress Maximus (disambiguation)|Fortress Maximus]]<ref name="two added" />
* 63: [[The Wreckers]]
* 64: [[Hot Rod (disambiguation)|Rodimus]] (C)
* 65: [[Arcee (disambiguation)|Arcee]] (C)
* 66: [[Mirage (disambiguation)|Mirage]] (C)
* 67: [[Swoop (disambiguation)|Swoop]] (C)
* 68: [[Sludge (disambiguation)|Sludge]] (C)
* 69: [[Snarl (disambiguation)|Snarl]] (C)
* 70: [[Wheeljack (disambiguation)|Wheeljack]] (D)
* 71: [[Ultra Magnus (disambiguation)|Ultra Magnus]] (D)
* 72: [[Springer (disambiguation)|Springer]] (D)
* 73: [[Brawn (disambiguation)|Brawn]] (D)
* 74: [[Cliffjumper (disambiguation)|Cliffjumper]] (D)
* 75: [[Blurr (disambiguation)|Blurr]] (D)
* 76: ???<ref name="removed" />
* 77: [[Omega Supreme (disambiguation)|Omega Supreme]] (E)
* 78: [[Sentinel Prime (disambiguation)|Sentinel Prime]] (E)
====Decepticon Character Profiles====
* 79: Title
* 80: [[Lugnut (disambiguation)|Lugnut]] (B)
* 81: [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (B)
* 82: [[Barricade (disambiguation)|Barricade]] (B)
* 83: [[Soundwave (disambiguation)|Soundwave]] (B)
* 84: [[Ratbat (disambiguation)|Ratbat]] (B)
* 85: [[Ravage (disambiguation)|Ravage]] (B)
* 86: [[Laserbeak (disambiguation)|Laserbeak]] (B)
* 87: [[Rumble (disambiguation)|Rumble]] (B)
* 88: [[Frenzy (disambiguation)|Frenzy]] (B)
* 89: [[Lockdown (disambiguation)|Lockdown]] (C)
* 90: [[Skywarp (disambiguation)|Skywarp]] (C)
* 91: [[Thundercracker (disambiguation)|Thundercracker]] (C)
* 92: [[Shockwave (disambiguation)|Shockwave]] (C)
* [[Underbite]]<ref name="two added" />
* 93: [[Blitzwing (disambiguation)|Blitzwing]] (D)
* 94: [[Devastator (disambiguation)|Devastator]] (D)
* 95: [[Mixmaster (disambiguation)|Mixmaster]] (D)
* 96: [[Long Haul (disambiguation)|Long Haul]] (D)
* 97: [[Rampage (disambiguation)|Rampage]] (D)
* 98: [[Hightower (disambiguation)|Hightower]] (D)
* 99: [[Scavenger (disambiguation)|Scavenger]] (D)
* 100: [[Scrapper (disambiguation)|Scrapper]] (D)
* 101: [[Bludgeon (disambiguation)|Bludgeon]] (D)
* [[Menasor (disambiguation)|Menasor]]<ref name="two added" />
* 102: [[Bruticus (disambiguation)|Bruticus Maximus]] (E)
* 103: [[Swindle (disambiguation)|Swindle]] (E)
* 104: [[Onslaught (disambiguation)|Onslaught]] (E)
* 105: [[Blast Off (disambiguation)|Blast Off]] (E)
* 106: [[Clamp Down (WFC)|Clamp Down]] (E)<ref>No, we don't know who the hell this is either.</ref>
* 107: [[Waspinator (disambiguation)|Waspinator]] (F)
* 108: [[Quintesson]] (F)
* 109: [[Gnaw (disambiguation)|Gnaw]] (F)
* 110: [[Trypticon (disambiguation)|Trypticon]] (G)
* 111-112: ???<ref name="removed" />

====Legendary Character Profiles====
* 113: Title
* 114: [[Thirteen|The Thirteen Primes]]
* 115: [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]]
* 116: [[Vector Prime]]
* 117: [[Prima]]
* 118: [[The Fallen|Megatronus]]
* 119: [[Liege Maximo]]
* 120: [[Solus Prime]]
* 121: [[Nexus Prime]]
* 122: [[Micronus Prime|Micronus]]
* 123: [[Quintus Prime|Quintus]]
* 124: [[Onyx Prime]]
* 125: [[Amalgamous Prime]]
* 126: [[Alchemist Prime]]
* 127: The [[Thirteenth Prime]]
* 128: [[Galvatron (disambiguation)|Galvatron]], [[Ultimate Transformers]]
* [[Unicron]]<ref name="two added" />
* Auxillary Transformer Profiles<ref name="added" />
* [[Combiner]]s, [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]]s, [[Titans]], [[Mini-Con]]s, [[Beast mode|Beast Transformers]]<ref name="four added">Four new pages added.</ref>
* [[Maximal]]s, [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s, [[Dinobot (disambiguation)|Dinobot]]s<ref name="added" />
====Human Character Profiles====
* 129: Title
* 130: [[Witwicky (surname)|Witwickys]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)]]
* 131: [[Sam Witwicky|Samuel James (Sam)]] / Spike, [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster]]
* 132: [[Sparkplug Witwicky|Sparkplug]], [[Carly (G1)|Carlee]]
* 133: [[Daniel Witwicky (G1)|Daniel]], [[Herbert Witwicky|Herbert]]
* 134: [[Clarence Witwicky|Clarence]], [[Judy Witwicky|Judy]]
* 135: [[Ron Witwicky|Ronald]], [[Archibald Witwicky|Captain Archibald Amundsen]]
* 136: [[Maggie Madsen|Maggie Madson]] {{sic}}, [[Glen Whitmann]] (Hackers)
* 137: [[Chip Chase]] (Hackers)
* 138: [[Reggie Simmons|Agent Reggie Simmons]], [[Theodore Galloway|NSA Deputy Director Theodore Galloway]] (Government)
* 139: [[Morshower|Admiral Morshower]], [[John Keller|Defense Secretary John Keller]] (Government)
* 140: [[Brigham|Admiral Brigham]] (Government)
* 141: [[William Lennox]], [[Robert Epps]] (Autobot-Human Allied Forces)
* 142: [[Kaminari Ishihara|Dr. Kaminari Ishihara]], [[Petr Andronov]] (Autobot-Human Allied Forces)
* 143: [[Pierre Morales]] (Autobot-Human Allied Forces)
* 144: [[Sari Sumdac (Animated)|Sari Sumdac]], [[Mikaela Banes]] (Civilians)
* 145: [[Erasto Khalfani]], [[Miles Lancaster|Miles]] (Civilians)
* 146: [[Sarah Lennox]], [[Monique Epps]] (Civilians)
* 147: [[Leo Spitz|Leo Ponce de Leon Spitz]], [[Colin Banes|Cal Banes]] (Civilians)
* 148: [[Carly Witwicky (Animated)|Carly]], [[Chumley|Lord Chumley]] (Civilians)
* 149: [[Colan|Professor Colan]] (Civilians)
* 150: [[Isaac Sumdac (Animated)|Isaac Sumdac]], [[Doctor Arkeville|Dr. Arkville]] {{sic}} (Scientists)
* 151: [[Doctor Fujiyama the Famous Scientist|Dr. Fujiyama]], [[Haley|Professor Haley]] (Scientists)
* 152: [[Circuit Breaker (G1)|Josie Beller]] (Scientists)
* 153: [[Shawn Berger|Sean Burger / Shawn Berger]], [[Astoria Carlton-Ritz]] (Industrialists)
* 154: [[G.B. Blackrock]] (Industrialists)

===IV. Locations===
* 155-156: Title
====Earth====
* 157: Introduction
* 158: Earth
* 159-160: [[Hoover Dam]], [[Sector Seven]]
* 160: [[Shanghai]], [[Rome]]
* 161: [[Mission City]], [[Diego Garcia|Diego Garcia Airbase]]
* 162: [[Pentagon|Pentagon Action Crisis Center]], [[Princeton University|Princeton]]
* 163: [[Paris]], [[Egypt]]
* [[Chicago]]<ref name="added" />
* [[Hong Kong]]<ref name="added" />
* 164: [[Mount St. Hilary]], [[Fox Creek Canyon]], [[Ruby crystal mines of Burma|Ruby Mines of Burma]]
* 165: [[Central City (Earth)|Central City]], [[:Category:Decepticon bases on Earth|Decepticon Base]]
====Cybertron====
* 166: Cybertron Projection Map
* 167: Introduction
* 168: [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]
* 169: [[Moonbase One|Cybertron Moon Base One]]
* 170: [[Moonbase Two|Cybertron Moon Base Two]], [[Trypticon Asteroid Belt]]
* 171: [[Underworld]], [[Iacon (polity)]]
* 172: [[Hall of Records|Autobot Hall of Records]]
* 173: [[Manganese Mountains]], [[Six Lasers Over Cybertron]], [[Mithril Sea|Mithric Sea]]
* 174: [[Unicron Ejection Site]], [[Praxus]], [[Crystal City|Crystal City Ruins]]
* 175: [[Polyhex]], [[Perceptoryn]], [[Kalis]]
* 176: [[Well of All Sparks|Well of Allsparks]], [[Altihex]]
* 177: [[Uraya]], [[Simfur]], [[Polities of Cybertron#Orbital Torus State|Torus States]]
* 178: [[Nova Cronum]], [[Tagan Heights]]
* 179: [[Stanix]], [[Blaster City]], [[Sonic Canyons]]
* 180: [[Kaon (polity)|Kaon]]
* 181: [[Slaughter City]], [[Vos (polity)|Vos]], [[Tarn (polity)|Tarn]]
* 182: [[Hydrax Plateau]], [[Rust Sea|Sea of Rust]], [[Astral Plane]], [[Unicron]]
====Distant Planets====
* 183: Title
* 184: [[Akalo]], [[Antilla]], [[Bhul]]
* 185: [[Centaris Seven]], [[Chaar]], [[Ceti Alpha Seven]]
* 186: [[Combatron (planet)|Combatron]], [[Daffodil II]], [[Darhos]]
* 187: [[The Ice Planet]], [[Dread (planet)|Dredd]], [[Eurythma]]
* 188: [[Femax]], [[Ganzvort]], [[Ghennix]]
* 189: [[Goo Number 8739-B|Goo]], [[Gorlam Prime]], [[Greengard]]
* 190: [[Hub (G2)|The Hub]], [[Hydrus Four]], [[Hyperion (planet)|Hyperion]], [[Jhi]]
* 191: [[Jörmungandr]], [[Klo]], [[Master (planet)|Master]]
* 192: [[Menonia]], [[Mumu-Obscura]], [[New Kaon]]
* 193: [[Nebulos]], [[Paradise]]
* 194: [[Paradron]], [[Planet Q]]
* 195: [[Pz-Zazz]], [[Quintessa (planet)|Quintessa]], [[Regalis V]]
* 196: [[Archa Seven|Spider Planet]], [[Talos Four|Talos IV]], [[Thrull]]
* 197: [[Torkulon]], [[Twin Star]]
* 198: [[Velocitron]], [[Wednesday]], [[Zarak (planet)|Zarak]]

===V. Vehicles, Weapons, Artifacts & Technolog===
* 199-200: Title
====Vehicles====
* 201: Title
* 202: [[Ark (disambiguation)|The Ark]], [[Nemesis (disambiguation)|The ''Nemesis'']]
* 203: [[Omega Supreme (disambiguation)|Omega Supreme]], [[Trypticon (disambiguation)|Trypticon]]
* 204: ''[[Pearl of India|The Pearl of India]]''
====Weapons====
* 205: Title
* 206: [[Andronov Device]], [[Electromagnetic pulse|Narrowcast EMP]]
* 207: [[Voltronic Galaxer]], [[Transfixatron]]
* 208: [[Solar Needle|Megatron's Solar Needle]], [[SOSUS Detection Net]]s
* 209: [[Rail gun|Rail Gun]], [[The Immobilizer]]
* 210: [[Mode lock|Mode Lock]], [[Death crystal|Death Crystal]]s
* 211: [[Acid pellet|Acid Pellet]]s, [[Decepticon Hunter]]<ref name="updated" />
====Artifacts of the Primes====
* 212: Key Art
* 213: Title
* 214-215: [[Matrix of Leadership|The Matrix of Leadership]]
* 215: [[Covenant of Primus|The Covenant of Primus]]
* 216: [[AllSpark|The AllSpark]]
* 217: [[Star Saber (Prima)|The Star Saber]], [[Requiem Blaster (Megatronus)|The Requium Blaster]] {{sic}}
* 218: [[Quill|The Quill of Trion]], [[Forge|Solus Prime's Forge]]
* 219: [[Emberstone|The Spark of Quintus]], [[Enigma of Combination|The Enigma of Combination]]
* 220: [[Transformation Cog|The Transformation Cog]], [[Lenses|The Lenseers]]
* 221: [[Chimera Stone|The Chimera Stone]], [[Triptych Mask|The Tryptic Mask]] {{sic}}
* 222: [[Liegian Darts|The Liegian Darts]], [[Blades of Time|The Blades of Time]]
* 223: [[Sinisternal|The Sinisternal]]
====Technology====
* 224: Key Art
* 225: Title
* 226: [[Teletraan (disambiguation)|Teletran I]], [[Vector Sigma]]
* 227: [[Energon Trackers]], [[Star Harvester]]
* 228: [[Protoform]]
====Transformer Culture====
* 229: Title
* 230: [[Rite of the Autobrand|The Rite of the Autobrand]], [[Universal greeting|Universal Greeting]]
====Human Culture: Companies====
* 231: Title
* 232: [[Quantum Laboratories]], [[McClaren Robotics]], [[Hybrid Technologies]]
====Human Artifacts====
* 233: Title
* 234: ''[[The Arctic Grail: A History of Expeditions]]'', [[Archibald Witwicky's glasses|Archibald Witwicky's Glasses]], ''[[As the Kitchen Sinks]]''
* 235: Real-Effing-Deal.com, Giant-Effing-Robots.com
* 236: [[Alien/Autobot Cooperation Act|Alien Autobot Cooperation Act]]

===VI. The Super Science of Transformers===
* 237-238: Title
* 239: Introduction
* 240-241: [[Transformer#Origins|Genesis]], [[Spark|The Spark]], [[Transformer#Transformer life cycle|Stages of Transformer Development]]
* 241-242: [[AllSpark|The AllSpark]], [[Second-born intellect|Artificial Intelligence]]
* 242-243: [[Energon]], [[Dark Energon]], [[Cosmic Rust (disease)]], [[Energy Sources]]
* 243-244: [[Space (the place)|Travel Through Space and Time]], [[Space bridge|Space Bridges]]
* 244: [[Time travel|Time Travel]], [[Artificial Worlds]]
* 245: [[Robot Divergence]], [[Transformation|Transformations]] and [[Scanning|Trans-Scanning]]
* 246-247: [[Weapon|Weaponry]], [[Function|Special Science]]
* 247: [[Earth Super-Technology]], [[Cybertronian language|Language Conventions]], [[:Category:Measurements|Units of Measurement]]
* 248: Units of Cybertronian Measurements

===VII. Archetypes, Messages & Themes===
* 249-250: Title
* 251: Introduction
====The Brand Essence of ''Transformers''====
* 252=253: What makes a ''Transformers'' Story?
* 253-256: Brand Archetype: The Ruler
* 256-257: Sage Archetype — New Witwicky
====The Theme of ''Transformers''====
* 258: What is ''Transformers'' about? In a universe where change is the only constant, how is peace possible?
* 259-260: The Central Theme Explained, Fundamental Conflict
====Messages of ''Transformers''====
* 261-262: Chaos & Order, Destiny and Fate, Avatar Theory and Reincarnation, A Single Action can Change the Course of History, Transformation
* 262-263: Achieving Success through Effort, Brotherhood, Responsibility
* 263: More than meets the eye..., Supporting Characters as Mirrors, Once you have found your bliss you can achieve the impossible.

====Aspirational Drivers====
* 264: Aspirational Drivers
====Major Aspirational Drivers====
* 265-266: Mastery, Power
* 266: Hierarchy
====Seconary Aspiration Drivers====
* 267: Multiplicity, Inner Pride
====Sensory Gratification====
* 268: Sensory Gratification
====Fantasy Journey & Fulfillment====
* 269: Fantasy Journey & Fulfillment
* 270: Key Art

===VIII. Epic Chronology===
* 271-272: Title
* 273-306: The Epic Chronology of ''Transformers''<ref>In the 2015 ed., pg 299 (Epoch X — Ascension) was replaced with three new pages expanding on this era following its depiction in media. Similarly, pg 301 (Epoch XI — The Return to Cybertron) was also updated with new information from recent media.</ref>

===IX. Distant Mountains===
* 307-308: Title
* 309: ??? (likely introduction of this section as covering unanswered questions, to be explored in future media)<ref name="removed" />
* 310: Epoch I — [[Age of Primes|Origins]]
* 311: Epoch II — The [[War of the Primes]]
* 312: Epoch III — The Fall of the Primes
* 313: Epoch IV — The [[Age of Wrath|Age of Wraith]] {{sic}}
* 314: Epoch V — The [[Golden Age]]
* 315: Epoch VI — The [[Age of Rust|Rise of the Decepticons]]
* 316: Epoch VII — The [[Great War (Prime)|Civil War]]
* 317: Epoch VIII — The [[Great Exodus|Exodus]]
* 318: Epoch IX — Earth Activation
* 319: Epoch X — Ascension
* 320: Epoch XI — The Return to Cybertron
* 321: Epoch XII — Unicron
* 322: Epoch XIII — A New Universe

===Appendix I. The Language of the Primes===
* 323-324: Title
* 325-326: Cybertronian Alphabet

===Appendix II. Glossary of Terms===
* 327-328 - Title
* 329-334 Glossary of Terms

==Issues==
Rik Alvarez claimed in 2015 that the "B.O.R." had been repeatedly ignored or subverted. First, the creatives behind ''[[Transformers: Prime (cartoon)|Prime]]'' didn't want to be beholden to older material, not even other parts of Aligned, even as the B.O.R. had to flesh out the world for them; [[IDW Publishing]] had established too many backstories for the Binder to be logistically applicable for them; and ''[[Transformers: Rescue Bots (cartoon)|Rescue Bots]]'' was not part of the Binder's plans, yet in it came!<ref>{{citesocial|quote=WHY DID THIS ALL FALL APART? 1. Hasbro never had control of ''Prime''. Studio didn't want anything to do with [''War for Cybertron/Fall of Cybetron'']. Left HasLab scrambling to change everyone else's projects. Studio claimed ''Rescue Bots'' was part of ''Prime'' story... ''Beast Hunters'' (we'll get into that later...). ''Prime'' had to end after 3 seasons [as the] Budget ballooned out of control, Hasbro dropped the ball on toys, NOBODY had the HUB... 2. No IDW tie in comic book. 3. MMOG disaster — team kept changing. 4. No cross branding marker.|link=https://web.archive.org/web/20151021235106/http://sunnybutte.tumblr.com/post/131367083128/that-explains-a-lot-of-the-mess-that-was|name=Rik Alvarez|site=TFcon Charlotte|year=2015}}</ref> Then the incoming toy design director at Hasbro abruptly changed the plans for ''Prime'' season 3, swerving to ''Beast Hunters'' instead of a return to Cybertron that would have included [[Star Seeker|pirates]]. ''Prime'' being cancelled, according to Alvarez, shot the B.O.R. in the head.<ref name="beast hunters" /> [[Andrew Hall]], who had also worked on [[Arms Micron|Aligned product]], weighed in to confirm that this lined up with what he had heard from other people.<ref>{{citesocial|quote=No, the aspects of it that people are seeing as complaining was pretty much stuff I heard after he had left. So I just wanted to say that it's definitely not fabricated. [...] I'm just sympathetic because I've seen very clearly that working in a large corporation can be like being wrapped up in a massive war, where you're only in control of your own little unit (if that), and not the entire battlefield. I know plenty of really talented people who had their careers swept away with the tide, due to no fault of their own. I'm not even being slightly dramatic here.|link=https://web.archive.org/web/20160522191018/http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/121416-everything-that-went-wrong-with-the-transformers-prime-show-panel-at-tfcon-charlotte/page-8#entry3060551|name=Andrew Hall|site=The Allspark|title=Everything that went wrong with the Transformers: Prime show panel at TFCon Charlotte|year=2015|month=10|day=19}}</ref>

==Footnotes==
<references />

[[Category:Aligned]]
[[Category:Hasbro]]
[[Category:Prime media]]
[[Category:War for Cybertron media]]

Combiner Wars (toyline)

2024-11-09T16:48:45Z

Jimsorenson: /* Voyager Class */

{{nav-CombinerWars}}

[[File:CombinerWarsAppCollage.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|The possibilities are almost endless! Sadly, the selection of unique figures is not.]]

'''''Combiner Wars''''' is a [[subline imprint]] of the ''[[Transformers: Generations (toyline)|Generations]]'' toyline, constituting the first portion of the ''[[Prime Wars Trilogy]]''.

Debuting at the very end of 2014, it saw Deluxe, Voyager, and some Legends Class figures able to form [[Combiner]] robots, primarily of the Scramble City variety that allows the Deluxe figures to be either an arm or a leg, and allowing mix-and-match combinations. The format for Legends Class was changed once again, dropping the small partner figures of the ''Thrilling 30'' line.

The tradition of including IDW comic books with U.S.<ref name="defus">Australia, New Zealand, and Hasbro's Asian markets typically get toys in whatever format is also used for the United States. The markets that traditionally get multilingual packaging are Canada, Latin America, and Europe. See the image under "notes" for a comparison.</ref> Deluxes (started by the ''[[Thrilling 30]]'' segment) continued, whilst Legends, Voyagers, and non-U.S. Deluxes gained collector cards featuring art taken either from the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game, or simply the toy's [[package art]] (which doubles as the comic book cover for the U.S.<ref name="defus"/> version). Each pack-in comic also included an expanded profile for the toy written by [[Mark Weber]]. However, due to production schedule problems,<ref>[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> Deluxe wave 1's initial U.S.<ref name="defus"/> release featured the collector cards in lieu of comics. Along with the concurrently released ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' line, ''Combiner Wars'' also heralded the return of [[multilingual packaging]] to the United States<ref name="defus"/> market, now in English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese. The sole exception to this was the Deluxe figures packaged with comic books, which retained English-only packaging.

Meanwhile, ''Combiner Wars'' marked the end of the [[Toys"R"Us]] exclusivity for ''Generations'' figures that had been in effect in several European markets since the launch of the original line in 2010 (which had usually resulted in only one wave per assortment ever being released in Europe). Not only did availability and distribution improve tremendously across the board—the ''Combiner Wars'' figures were even released in European markets where ''Generations'' figures had previously never been available at all! At the same time, European packaging reduced the number of languages from thirteen to a mere four (English, French, German, and Spanish), resulting in a less cluttered packaging design.

After the general retail assortments had run their course, the line was extended for several months via [[giftset]]s of complete teams featuring redecos and retools, referred to as "Collection Packs" in official promotional materials. Those sets were typically "shared exclusives" between online retailers and the online storefronts of "big box" retailers, though they were also available at brick and mortar retail in several non-U.S. markets.

The Japanese version of this line, ''[[Transformers Unite Warriors|Unite Warriors]]'', was considerably smaller, being almost entirely boxed sets released on a very staggered schedule.

{{bigquote|Courage is stronger when combined|Official tagline for the ''Combiner Wars'' line}}

==Toys==
===General retail===
====Legends Class====
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 1'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Bombshell (G1)#Combiner Wars|Bombshell]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Powerglide (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Autobot Powerglide]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Thundercracker]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Windcharger (G1)#Combiner Wars|Windcharger]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 2'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Blackjack (G1)#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Blackjack]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Huffer (G1)#Combiner Wars|Huffer]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 3'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Groove (G1)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot Groove]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Viper (CW)#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Viper]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Warpath (G1)#Combiner Wars|Warpath]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 4'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Hot Rod (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Rodimus]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Skywarp]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:CW-toy Viper.jpg|thumb|250px|Legends Class Viper.]]
|-
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 5'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Buzzsaw (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Buzzsaw]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Chop Shop (G1)#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Chop Shop]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Pipes (G1)#Combiner Wars|Autobot Pipes]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Shockwave]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 6'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Wreck-Gar (G1)#Combiner Wars|Wreck-Gar]]}}
</ul>
|}
{{-}}

====Deluxe Class====
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 1'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Alpha Bravo#Combiner Wars|Alpha Bravo]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Drag Strip (G1)#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Dragstrip]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Fireflight (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Firefly]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)/toys#Combiner Wars|Skydive]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 2'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Air Raid (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Air Raid]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Breakdown (G1)#Combiner Wars|Breakdown]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Dead End (G1)#Combiner Wars|Dead End]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Offroad (CW)#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Offroad]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 3'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Blades (G1)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot Blades]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[First Aid (G1)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot First Aid]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Rook (CW)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot Rook]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Streetwise (G1)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot Streetwise]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 4'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Ironhide (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Ironhide]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Mirage (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Mirage]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Prowl (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Prowl]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Sunstreaker (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Sunstreaker]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:Generationstoy-Firefly.jpg|thumb|250px|Deluxe Class Firefly.]]
|-
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 5'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Blast Off (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Blast Off]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Brawl (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Brawl]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Swindle (G1)#Combiner Wars|Swindle]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Vortex (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Decepticon Vortex]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 6'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Wheeljack (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Wheeljack]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Hound (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Autobot Hound]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Smokescreen (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Smokescreen]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Trailbreaker (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Trailbreaker]]}}
</ul>
|}
{{note|For the US market, each figure from wave 2 on came with a reprint of an [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comic that supposedly featured the character, but that whole "featured the character" thing didn't always pan out. A comic-book-pack-in variant of Decepticon Dragstrip was later released in a revision of wave 2. Some time later, the full set wave 1 comics (which '''were''' originally solicited for normal retail) were released in a bundle at a Taiwanese comic convention, separate from the figures.}}

====Voyager Class====
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 1'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generations toys#Combiner Wars|Optimus Prime]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Silverbolt (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Silverbolt]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 2'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Motormaster (G1)#Combiner Wars|Motormaster]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 3'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Hot Spot (G1)#Combiner Wars|Protectobot Hot Spot]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Cyclonus (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Cyclonus]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 4'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generations toys#CWBC|Battle Core Optimus Prime]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=5|[[File:GenerationsVoyOP.jpg|thumb|250px|Voyager Class Optimus Prime.]]
|-
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 5'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Onslaught (G1)#Combiner Wars|Onslaught]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Scattershot (G1)#Combiner Wars|Scattershot]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 6'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Sky Lynx (G1)#Combiner Wars|Sky Lynx]]}}
</ul>
|}

{{-}}

====Leader Class====
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 1'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Megatron (G1)/Generations toys#Combiner Wars|Megatron]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Megatron (Armada)/toys#Combiner Wars|Armada Megatron]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 2'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#CWLeader|Thundercracker]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 3'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Ultra Magnus]] (with [[Minimus Ambus#Combiner Wars|Minimus Ambus]])}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 4'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Starscream (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Starscream]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:Generations Leader TC.jpg|thumb|250px|Leader Class Thundercracker.]]
|-
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 5'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Skywarp (G1)/toys#CWLeader|Skywarp]]}}
</ul>
|}
{{-}}

====Titan Class====
[[File:CombinerWars TitanDevastator.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Titan Class Devastator]]
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Devastator (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Devastator]], giftset of 6 Voyager-sized figures, includes:}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Hook (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Hook]]}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Long Haul (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Long Haul]]}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Scavenger (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Scavenger]]}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Bonecrusher (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Bonecrusher]]}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Scrapper (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Scrapper]]}}
:{{Bp-d1|[[Mixmaster (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Constructicon Mixmaster]]}}
</ul>

{{note|In [[2021]], Hasbro re-released Devastator exclusively through [[Amazon]], as a way for the people who missed out in [[2015]] to get their hands on him. There were no differences in packaging or the mold itself, it was just a straight re-release.}}
{{-}}

===Exclusives===
===="May Mayhem" Deluxes====
These were officially exclusive to online retailers and comic book stores for the United States market (although a few specimens ended up at retail stores), but were available at general retail in Hasbro's Asian markets. Not counting store-initiated imports, they were never officially available in Canada, Australia or Europe. Regardless of the markets they were released in, Brake-Neck and Quickslinger were only available in English-only packaging including comic books, whereas Groove was only available in multilingual packaging including a character card instead of a comic book.
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''2015'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Wildrider (G1)#Combiner Wars|Brake-Neck]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Slingshot (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Quickslinger]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''2016'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Groove (G1)#CWDeluxe|Protectobot Groove]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|
|width="20%" valign="top"|
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:TF-Combiner-Wars-Protectobot-Groove.jpg|thumb|250px|Protectobot Groove]]
|}
{{-}}

====Convention multi-packs====
While these toys premiered at conventions (most prominently [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2015), they also ended up available through other venues, like the [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] online store, and even at retail in international markets such as Asia and Australia. See individual entries for more information.

{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Devastator (G1)/toys#SDCC2015titan|Devastator]] 2015 Special Edition'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Bonecrusher (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Bonecrusher]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Hook (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Hook]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Long Haul (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Long Haul]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-d1|[[Mixmaster (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Mixmaster]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Scavenger (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Scavenger]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Scrapper (G1)/toys#SDCC2015|Constructicon Scrapper]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Combiner Hunters'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Arcee (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Arcee]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Chromia (G1)#Combiner Wars|Chromia]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Windblade (G1)#Combiner Wars|Windblade]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:Transformers-SDCC-Combiner-Hunters-Windblade.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|''Combiner Hunters'' Windblade]]
|}
{{-}}

===="Online exclusive" Collection Packs====
Most of these box sets were "shared exclusives" sold by numerous online retailers. Liokaiser, however, was a ''[[Transformers: Platinum Edition|Platinum Edition]]'' set ''officially'' exclusive to Entertainment Earth in the United States... but he was also available from other venues in other markets, and even in the United States, online retailers that got their stock from overseas carried him regardless.

{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Superion (G1)#CWG2|Superion]]''' (G2 deco)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a2|[[Air Raid (G1)/toys#CWG2|Air Raid]]}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Fireflight (G1)/toys#CWG2|Firefly]]}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Powerglide (G1)/toys#CWG2|Powerglide]]}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Slingshot (G1)/toys#CWG2|Quickslinger]]}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Silverbolt (G1)/toys#CWG2|Silverbolt]]}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)/toys#CWG2|Skydive]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Menasor (G1)#CWG2|Menasor]]''' (G2 deco)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d2|[[Blackjack (G1)#CWG2|Decepticon Blackjack]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Wildrider (G1)#CWG2|Brake-Neck]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Breakdown (G1)#CWG2|Breakdown]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Dead End (G1)#CWG2|Dead End]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Drag Strip (G1)#CWG2|Decepticon Dragstrip]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Motormaster (G1)#CWG2|Motormaster]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Victorion#Combiner Wars|Victorion]]'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Dust Up#Combiner Wars|Dust Up]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Jumpstream#Combiner Wars|Jumpstream]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Pyra Magna#Combiner Wars|Pyra Magna]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Rust Dust#Combiner Wars|Rust Dust]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Skyburst (G1)#Combiner Wars|Skyburst]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Stormclash#Combiner Wars|Stormclash]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Bruticus (G1)#CWG2|Bruticus]]''' (G2 deco)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d2|[[Blast Off (G1)/toys#CWG2|Blast Off]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Brawl (G1)/toys#CWG2|Brawl]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Onslaught (G1)/toys#CWG2|Onslaught]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Shockwave (G1)/toys#CWG2|Shockwave]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Swindle (G1)#CWG2|Swindle]]}}
{{Bp-d2|[[Vortex (G1)/toys#CWG2|Vortex]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:TF-Platinum-Edition-Combiner-Wars-Liokaiser.jpg|thumb|250px|Collection Pack Liokaiser]]
|-
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Computron (G1)#Combiner Wars|Computron]]'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Afterburner (G1)#Combiner Wars|Afterbreaker]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Boltax (G1)#Combiner Wars|Cybaxx]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Lightspeed (G1 Technobot)#Combiner Wars|Lightsteed]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Nosecone (G1)#Combiner Wars|Nosecone]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Scattershot (G1)#CWComputron|Scattershot]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Scrounge (G1)#Combiner Wars|Scrounge]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Strafe (G1)#Combiner Wars|Strafe]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Liokaiser#Combiner Wars|Liokaiser]]</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Deathsaurus (G1)#Combiner Wars|Dezarus]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Drillhorn (G1)#Combiner Wars|Drillhorn]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Hellbat (G1)#Combiner Wars|Fellbat]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Guyhawk#Combiner Wars|Guyhawk]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Ion Scythe#Combiner Wars|Ion Scythe]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Killbison#Combiner Wars|Ironbison]]}}
</ul>
|}

====Fun Publications====
While the figures and sets listed above were all Hasbro-initiated releases, Hasbro licensee [[Fun Publications]] also branded their [[BotCon 2016]] exclusives and the ''[[Transformers Figure Subscription Service]]'' 4.0 and 5.0 figures as part of the ''Combiner Wars'' line (including figures that weren't part of the "combiner" concept), as opposed to the usual ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' branding for previous FunPub exclusives.

;BotCon 2016
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''[[Predacus#Combiner Wars|Predacus]]'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-p1|[[Cicadacon#Combiner Wars|General Cicadacon]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Ram Horn#Combiner Wars|General Ramhorn]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Ravage (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Ravage]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Sea Clamp#Combiner Wars|General Sea Clamp]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Tarantulas (BW)/toys#Combiner Wars|Predacon Tarantulas]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Souvenir figures'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1|[[Airazor (BW)#Combiner Wars|Airazor]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Megatron (BW)/toys#Combiner Wars|Megatron]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Reflector (G1)#Combiner Wars|Reflector]] 3-pack}}
{{Bp-m1|[[Tigatron#Combiner Wars|Tigatron]]}}
{{Bp-m1|[[Under-3#Combiner Wars|Unit-3]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Customizing Class exclusives'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Medix (G1)#Combiner Wars|Medix]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Ratchet (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Autobot Ratchet]] ([[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|Marvel Comics]])}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Ratchet (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Autobot Ratchet]] ([[The Transformers (cartoon)|Sunbow cartoon]])}}
{{Bp-a2|[[Ratchet (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Autobot Ratchet]] (''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'')}}
{{Bp-sa|[[Ratchet (SG)#Combiner Wars|Autobot Ratchet]] (''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]'')}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Other exclusives'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-p1|[[Terrorsaur (BW)#Combiner Wars|Terrorsaur]] (Attendee freebie)}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Flash Sentry#Combiner Wars|Flash Sentry]] (Golden Ticket exclusive)}}
</ul>
|
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:BotCon2016toy-Ravage.jpg|thumb|250px|BotCon 2016 Ravage]]
|}
{{-}}
;Transformers Figure Subscription Service
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Series 4.0''' (2016)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Bludgeon (G1)#Combiner Wars|Bludgeon]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Bluestreak (G1)/toys#Combiner Wars|Bluestreak]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Ruckus (G1)#Combiner Wars|Grabuge]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Impactor (G1)#Combiner Wars|Impactor]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-d1|[[Needlenose (G1)#Combiner Wars|Needlenose]] (with [[Sunbeam (G1)#Combiner Wars|Sunbeam]] and [[Zigzag#Combiner Wars|Zputty]])}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Spinister (G1)#Combiner Wars|Spinister]] (with [[Hairsplitter#Combiner Wars|Shrute]] and [[Singe#Combiner Wars|Singe]])}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Windsweeper#Combiner Wars|Windsweeper]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Series 5.0''' (2017)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|[[Punch (G1)#Combiner Wars|Counterpunch]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Fractyl#Combiner Wars|Fractyl]] (with [[Scorponok (BW)#Combiner Wars|Scorponok]])}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Lifeline (G1)#Combiner Wars|Lifeline]] (with [[Quickslinger (G1)#Combiner Wars|Quickslinger]])}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Megatron (G1)/Generations toys#TFSS|Megatron]] (with [[Spacewarp#Combiner Wars|Spacewarp]])}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-a1|[[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generations toys#TFSS|Optimus Prime]] (with [[Hi-Q#Combiner Wars|Hi-Q]])}}
{{Bp-sd|[[Starscream (SG)#Combiner Wars|Shattered Glass Starscream]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Toxitron (G1)#Combiner Wars|Toxitron]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top" rowspan=2|[[File:CombinerWarstoy-Impactor.jpg|thumb|250px|Deluxe Class Impactor]]
|}

===="Special Edition" Deluxe====
[[File:Combiner-Wars-Special-Edition-Deluxe-Blast-Off.jpg|thumb|250px|Special Edition Deluxe Class Blast Off]]
In 2018, during the course of ''[[Power of the Primes (toyline)|Power of the Primes]]'', Hasbro released three exclusive Deluxe Class figures in premium-style boxes, each with a [[Prime Master]], to commemorate the ''Prime Wars Trilogy''. Each figure represents one part of the trilogy, and for ''Combiner Wars'' Hasbro used the ''[[Transformers Unite Warriors|Unite Warriors]]'' Shuttler mold (instead of Takara's version of Blast Off). Special Edition Blast Off was exclusive to [[Amazon (website)|Amazon]] in North America but available at general retail in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia.

:<u>'''Amazon'''</u>
:<ul class="iconlist">{{Bp-d1|[[Blast Off (G1)/toys#PWTSE|Decepticon Blast Off]]<br>(w/ [[The Fallen/toys#Combiner Wars|Megatronus]])}}
{{-}}

==Compatible toys in other lines==
With ''Combiner Wars'' eclipsing [[Transformers: Energon (toyline)|previous]] [[Bruticus (WFC)#Toys|attempts]] at combiner toys in both quantity and quality, it came as no surprise that the line's engineering would become the default method to represent combining characters in the years that followed. What began as simple cosmetic differences applied to ''Combiner Wars'' toys would soon lead to extensive retools and dedicated molds, all of which are cross-compatible with the combination [[play pattern]].

===''Unite Warriors''===
{{main|Transformers Unite Warriors}}
''Combiner Wars''<nowiki>'</nowiki> concurrent counterpart in [[TakaraTomy]] markets, ''Unite Warriors'' consisted largely of combiners sold in box sets of one torso and four limbs, omitting the Legends Class weaponry that would characterise the Hasbro line. ''Unite Warriors'' toys featured elaborate decos to more accurately reflect each character's appearance in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original animated series]]. The line would omit Hasbro original characters, such as Alpha Bravo and Offroad, in favour of replicating each team's traditional members, in two cases creating [[Groove (G1)#UW03|brand]] [[Blast Off (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|new]] molds to better reflect the vintage combiners (incidentally, these "missing members" would make it back to Hasbro markets [[#"May Mayhem" Deluxes|sooner]] or [[#"Special Edition" Deluxe|much later]]). As time went on, ''Unite Warriors'' would diverge even further from ''Combiner Wars'', introducing its own exclusive combiner teams in the form of the [[Ruination (RID)#Unite Warriors 2|Commandos]] and [[Grand Galvatron#Unite Warriors 2|Grand Galvatron]], as well as an original character, [[Megatronia#Toys|Megatronia]]. The level of divergence was most noticeable when comparing the Hasbro and TakaraTomy versions of the [[Technobot (G1)|Technobots]], which featured only two molds out of five in common!

The ''Combiner Wars''-compatible toys in ''Unite Warriors'' are:

{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Torsos'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{bp-a1|[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Convoy]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Cyclonus (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Tactician Cyclonus]]}}
{{bp-cm|[[Mega-Octane#Unite Warriors 2|Dolrailer]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Grand Scourge#Toys|Grand Scourge]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Hot Spot (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Hot Spot]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Megaempress#Toys|Megaempress]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Motormaster (G1)#Unite Warriors|Motormaster]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Onslaught (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Onslaught]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Scattershot (G1)#Unite Warriors|Scattershot]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Silverbolt (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Silverbolt]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Sky Lynx (G1)#Unite Warriors|Sky Lynx]]}}
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Limbs'''</u>
{{bp-a1|[[Afterburner (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Afterburner]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Air Raid (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Air Rider]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Blast Off (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Blast Off]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Brawl (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Brawl]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Breakdown (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Breakdown]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Breakdown (WFC)#Unite Warriors|Zombie War Breakdown]]}}
{{bp-cm|[[Armorhide (RID)#Unite Warriors 2|Dangar]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Dead End (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Dead End]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Drag Strip (G1)#Unite Warriors|Drag Stripe]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Fireflight (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Firebolt]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[First Aid (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|First Aid]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Flowspade#Toys|Flowspade]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Blades (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Graze]]}}
{{bp-cm|[[Rollbar (RID)#Unite Warriors 2|Greejeeber]]}}
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{bp-a1|[[Groove (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Groove]]}}
{{bp-cm|[[Ro-Tor (RID)#Unite Warriors 2|Hepter]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Hound (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Hound]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Ironhide (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Ironhide]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Lightspeed (G1 Technobot)#Unite Warriors 2|Lightspeed]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Mirage (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Ligier]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Lunaclub#Toys|Lunaclub]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Moonheart#Toys|Moonheart]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Nosecone (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Nosecone]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Prowl (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Prowl]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Ratchet (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Ratchet]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Roller (G1)#Unite Warriors|Wandering Roller]]}}
{{bp-cm|[[Movor#Unite Warriors 2|Shuttler]]}}
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{bp-a1|[[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)/toys#Unite Warriors|Skydive]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Slingshot (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Sling]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Starscream (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Ghost Starscream]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Strafe (G1)#Unite Warriors|Strafe]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Streetwise (G1)#Unite Warriors 2|Streetwise]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Sunstreaker (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Sunstreaker]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Swindle (G1)#Unite Warriors|Swindle]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Thrust (Armada)#Unite Warriors|Curse Armada Thrust]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Trailbreaker (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Trailbreaker]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Trickdiamond#Toys|Trickdiamond]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Vortex_(G1)#Unite_Warriors_2|Vorter]]}}
{{bp-a1|[[Wheeljack (G1)/toys#Unite Warriors|Wheeljack]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Wildrider (G1)#Unite Warriors|Wildrider]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:UW-toy Computron.jpg|thumb|200px|''Unite Warriors'' [[Computron (G1)#Unite Warriors|Computicon]].]]
|
|}

===''Power of the Primes''===
{{main|Power of the Primes (toyline)}}
The third part of the ''[[Prime Wars Trilogy]]'', ''Power of the Primes'' focused on the unified gimmick of "powering up", such as gaining the abilities of one of the [[Thirteen|original Thirteen Primes]] or evolving to [[Prime (rank)|Primehood]], so it of course went back to the ''Combiner Wars'' well to bring back the [[Terrorcon (G1)|Terrorcons]] as well as other classic characters in new combiner-compatible forms. The majority of the toys in ''Power of the Primes'' were newly-designed to match the ''Combiner Wars'' system, with only a handful reusing tooling from that line.

Each Deluxe and Voyager figure includes "Prime Armor" (a fancy word for the Combiner extremities), which can house a Titan Master-compatible toy, but more relevantly, the male end of a ''Combiner Wars'' combination joint, a feature later used officially for the ''Selects'' Seacons. Since the Prime Armor also has [[5 mm post]]s/ports that most ''Transformers'' toys share, it opens an endless world of [[fan mode]]s.

''Power of the Primes'' was the first in the so-called "brand unification" of Hasbro and Takara's ''Transformers'' ranges, meaning that, aside from release dates and ID numbers, each toy released in both lines was virtually identical, ending the long-running tradition of Japanese toys getting different paint jobs and tooling.

''Combiner Wars''-compatible toys in ''Power of the Primes'' include:
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Torsos'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-a1|[[Elita One (G1)#Power of the Primes|Elita-1]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Grimlock (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Dinobot Grimlock]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Hun-Gurrr (G1)#Power of the Primes|Terrorcon Hun-Gurrr]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Inferno (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Inferno]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Starscream (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Starscream]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Limbs'''</u>
{{Bp-d1|[[Darkwing (G1)#Power of the Primes|Blackwing]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Blot (G1)#Power of the Primes|Terrorcon Blot]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Cutthroat (G1)#Power of the Primes|Terrorcon Cutthroat]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Dreadwind (G1)#Power of the Primes|Dreadwind]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Jazz (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Autobot Jazz]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Moonracer (G1)#Power of the Primes|Autobot Moonracer]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Firestar (G1)#Power of the Primes|Autobot Novastar]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-d1|[[Rippersnapper (G1)#Power of the Primes|Terrorcon Rippersnapper]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Sinnertwin (G1)#Power of the Primes|Sinnertwin]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Sludge (G1)#Power of the Primes|Dinobot Sludge]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Slag (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Dinobot Slug]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Snarl (G1)#Power of the Primes|Dinobot Snarl]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Swoop (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|Dinobot Swoop]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Wreck-Gar (G1)#Power of the Primes|Wreck-Gar]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Prime Armor only'''</u>
{{Bp-a1d1|[[Punch (G1)#Power of the Primes|Punch-Counterpunch]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:PotPtoy-Volcanicus.jpg|thumb|200px|''Power of the Primes'' [[Volcanicus (POTP)#Toys|Volcanicus]].]]
|
|}

===''Generations Selects'' (TakaraTomy)===
{{main|Generations Selects (toyline)#TakaraTomy}}
Only forget all that about Japanese-exclusive variants being over and done with, because as soon as TakaraTomy got its hands on the ''Generations Selects'' name, it produced two full sets of [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Sea]][[Seacon (BW)|cons]] that were ''heavily'' retooled from ''Power of the Primes'' molds. These were followed by distinct versions of the Terrorcons and Dinobots, making use of new decoes, retooled parts, and accessories largely to better resemble the teams' depictions in the original cartoon. Essentially, this was a revival of the ''Unite Warriors'' style of combiners, complete with three out of the four teams being sold in giftsets. Each of these releases would also be imported to U.S. markets by [[Hasbro Pulse]].

The compatible toys from TakaraTomy's ''Generations Selects'' consist of:
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Torsos'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{bp-a1|[[Grimlock (G1)/toys#Generations Selects|Grimlock]]}}
{{bp-p1|[[Halfshell#Generations Selects|Halfshell]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Hun-Gurrr (G1)#Generations Selects|Hun-Gurrr]]}}
{{bp-d1|[[Turtler#Generations Selects|Seacons Turtler]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Limbs'''</u>
{{Bp-d1|[[Blot (G1)#Generations Selects|Butto]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Coelagon#Generations Selects|Coelagon]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Cutthroat (G1)#Generations Selects|Cutthroat]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Gulf#Generations Selects|Seacons Gulf]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Kraken#Generations Selects|Seacons Kraken]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Lobclaw#Generations Selects|Seacons Lobclow]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-d1|[[Overbite (Masterforce)#Generations Selects|Seacons Overbite]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Rippersnapper (G1)#Generations Selects|Rippersnapper]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Sea Phantom#Generations Selects|Sea Phantom]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Sinnertwin (G1)#Generations Selects|Sinnertwin]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Scylla#Generations Selects|Skyulle]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Slag (G1)/toys#Generations Selects|Slag]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-a1|[[Sludge (G1)#Generations Selects|Sludge]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Snarl (G1)#Generations Selects|Snarl]]}}
{{Bp-a1|[[Swoop (G1)/toys#GSgiftset|Swoop]]}}
{{Bp-d1|[[Tentakil (Masterforce)#Generations Selects|Seacons Tentakil]]}}
{{Bp-p1|[[Terrormander#Generations Selects|Terrormander]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:TF-Generations-Selects-King-Poseidon.jpg|thumb|200px|''Generations Selects'' [[King Poseidon#Generations Selects|King Poseidon]].]]
|
|}

===And all the rest===
A small selection of combiner-compatible toys were sold in other lines where combination wasn't necessarily the main focus. For limb bots, this was predominantly in aid of releasing desirable characters or deco variants in collector-aimed lines—for example, the Hasbro version of ''Generations Selects'', which directly tied into ''Power of the Primes'' and ''War for Cybertron: Siege''.

With ''Unite Warriors'' omitting the Legends Class molds from ''Combiner Wars'', TakaraTomy elected to release them in the concurrent ''Adventure'' and ''Legends'' (no relation) lines. This included the molds for the combiner teams' littlest members, which retained the ability to become a weapon or armour for compatible combiners, regardless of whether or not this functionality was advertised in their instructions. The outlier in this group is the later ''Titans Return'' Cosmos, a Hasbro toy, which retained limited combiner compatibility thanks to a retooled part that debuted with ''Combiner Wars'' Scrounge.

Finally, there is the unique case of ''Legends'' Godbomber, who was designed to [[Partformer|partsform]] like his original 1980s toy to facilitate the contemporary [[Ginrai (human)#Legends|Super Ginrai]]'s [[Super Mode|"God" form]]. While many of his parts are connected by 5 mm ports and posts, Godbomber's legs make use of ''Combiner Wars''-style ports; as a result, his legs can be used with any combiner torso, and his thighs are compatible with any of the limb bots (the latter of which appeared as a selling point in [[Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 42|his pack-in fiction]]).

{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Limbs'''</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-d1|''[[The Transformers Golden Lagoon|Golden Lagoon]]'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Golden Lagoon|Starscream]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''[[Generations Selects (toyline)|Selects]]'' [[Swoop (G1)/toys#POTPGS|Dinobot Red Swoop]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''Selects'' [[Ricochet (Headmasters)#Generations Selects|Ricochet]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''Selects'' [[Lancer#Toys|Autobot Lancer]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''[[War for Cybertron: Siege|Siege]]'' [[Greenlight#War for Cybertron: Siege|Autobot Greenlight]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Weapons/Armor'''</u>
{{Bp-a1|''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 toyline)#TakaraTomy Adventure toyline|Adventure]]'' [[Dogfight (RID)#Toys|Dogfight]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''Adventure'' [[Override (RID)#Toys|Override]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''Adventure'' [[Powerglide (RID)#Toys|Powerglide]]}}
{{Bp-d1|''Adventure'' [[Runabout (RID)#Toys|Decepticon Runabout]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<br>
{{Bp-d1|''Adventure'' [[Runamuck (RID)#Toys|Decepticon Runamuck]]}}
{{Bp-d1|''[[Transformers Legends (franchise)|Legends]]'' [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Legends|Shockwave]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' [[Cosmos (G1)#Titans Return|Autobot Cosmos]]}}
|
|width="20%" valign="top"|<u>'''Other'''</u>
{{Bp-a1|''Legends'' [[Godbomber#Legends|LG42 Godbomber]]}}
{{Bp-a1|''Legends'' [[Godbomber#LegendsGodGinraiSet|LG-EX Godbomber]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|[[File:TF-Legends-LGEX-Godbomber.jpg|thumb|200px|''Legends'' LG-EX Godbomber.]]
|
|}

==Notes==
[[File:CombinerWarsPosterAds.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.0|Advertising is stronger when using social media]]
* Early in the toy line's life cycle, Hasbro advertised the figures with two "movie" style posters published on Facebook, alternatively depicting Superion and the Aerialbots, or Menasor and the Stunticons.<ref name="fbads">[http://news.tfw2005.com/2015/05/24/transformers-combiner-wars-superion-and-menasor-posters-182820 Combiner Wars "movie poster" adverts] at TFW2005</ref> The same artwork was later used for the posters included with the "Generation 2" Superion and Menasor Collection Packs. While awesome in their own right, none of those posters were ever featured at public transport stations, so there was still [[Titans Return (toyline)#Notes|room for improvement]]!

[[File:CW HufferBlackjack.jpg|thumb|right|upright=0.7|Clues hidden in a stock photo. What's next? Alternate heads depicted in instructions?]]
* The existence of Legends Class Huffer and the name of Blackjack were first revealed by a [[stock photography|stock photo]] of Menasor released during [[San Diego Comic-Con]] [[2014]]. What appeared to be a plain white background was, with color correction, revealed as a {{w|Mac OS}} screenshot displaying filenames for those two characters. Blackjack could easily be identified as the then unnamed black-and-purple car revealed at SDCC, whilst Huffer's toy was later announced at [[New York Comic Con]].
* In addition, Legends Class Rodimus and Skywarp were accidentally revealed prematurely in January 2015 via official product listings, including stock photos, on the public Hasbro website. This was almost a month before even the wave 3 products of all the main assortments (including Legends Class Groove, Warpath and Viper) would be officially revealed at [[Toy Fair]]. Hasbro quietly pulled the listings for Rodimus and Skywarp from their website and then pretended to "officially" reveal them at [[BotCon 2015]], a whole five months later... by which time they had already been released at retail in Singapore. Whoops.
* The Hasbro product code numbers for the first three waves of Legends Class figures suggest that a different release order was originally planned: Wave 1 would have included Huffer instead of Windcharger, who would have been the sole new figure in the subsequent wave (or, more likely, simply a revision wave), and Blackjack would have been released in the next wave alongside Warpath, Groove and Viper.
* The limb robots substituted out of ''Combiner Wars'' Superion, Menasor, and Defensor, namely [[Slingshot (G1)|Slingshot]], [[Wildrider (G1)|Wildrider]], and [[Groove (G1)|Groove]], also happen to be the same members whose ''[[Kre-O]]'' incarnations were sold separately from their teams. Coincidence? Probably.
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|Like most Deluxe Class figures, Swindle was available with a comic book in the U.S., Australia, New Zealand, and Asia (left), and with a character card in Canada and Latin America (center) as well as Europe (right).]]
* No wave 2 products of any [[size class]]es of ''Combiner Wars'' were ever officially released in any European markets, with the sole exception of Legends Class Blackjack, who was eventually released as part of a revision of wave 4. Even Motormaster, who was re-released as part of wave 4 of the Voyager Class assortment alongside Battle Core Optimus Prime, was omitted from the European wave 4 case assortment in favor of Silverbolt and Hot Spot. Hooooowever...
* In several instances, Deluxe Class figures appeared in certain markets in packaging not intended for those markets, oftentimes as [[parallel import|imported overstock]]. Those instances include:
** In the United States and other markets that got most Deluxes in English-only packaging including comic books, the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only released in multilingual Canadian/Latin American packaging including character cards. This was due to production scheduling problems, and even though Hasbro originally intended to re-release all four figures with comic books (packaged samples exist), ultimately only the comic book version of Dragstrip was released as part of a revision case of wave 2 that saw limited distribution. On top of that, clearance stores such as T.J.Maxx eventually stocked the multilingual Canadian/Latin American character card versions of the wave 4, 5 and 6 figures in late 2016.
** Canadian retailers such as Walmart and Toys"R"Us stocked the wave 4 Deluxes in English-only packaging including comic books even ''before'' the "proper" multilingual packaging versions with character cards instead of comic books became available.
** In the United Kingdom and Slovakia, the wave 2 Deluxes (specifically the revision case including Dragstrip) appeared during "silly season" in late 2016 at chains such as Guess How Much! (United Kingdom) and Dráčik (Slovakia) as gray imports in English-only packaging including comic books, making this the first time these figures (minus Dragstrip) were available at European retail, ''long'' after the fact.
** In early 2017, gray imports of the wave 4 Deluxes in English-only packaging including comic books also appeared at Intertoys, a Dutch chain with stores in Germany, where they warmed shelves alongside their counterparts in regular European packaging sans comic books. According to the multiple (!) import stickers, these truly went around the world, via China and then the United Kingdom, before ending up in continental Europe!
* Overall, this means Canadian/Latin American packaging is the only packaging version all general retail Deluxes were officially available in.
* Three [[Campaign item#Combiner Wars|promotional campaigns]] were run in Asian Toys"R"US markets during the release of the first four waves of ''Combiner Wars'' and the release of Titan Class Devastator.
** In the first campaign, buyers who purchased any four Deluxe Class figures from waves 1 and 2, received a free G1 toy-esque upgrade sticker sheet for the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]] and [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]]. These sticker sheets only applied to the figures of those waves, so the later inclusions to the teams (Quickslinger and Brake-Neck) never received any stickers. Optimus Prime was also not included in the sticker sheet.
** In the second campaign, buyers who purchased any four Deluxe Class figures from waves 3 and 4, received a free G1 toy-esque upgrade sticker sheet for the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobot]]s and the [[Optimus Maximus (G1)|Optimus Maximus]] components. Like above, the later Protectobot inclusion to the line (Deluxe Class Groove) never received any stickers. Cyclonus was also not included in the sticker sheet.
** In the third campaign, buyers who purchased Titan Class Devastator, received a free G1 toy-esque upgrade sticker sheet for the set itself.
* Reflecting on the success of the line, design director [[John Warden]] praised the cross-compatible [[play pattern]] across all the [[size class]]es, and the fact that the line caught the attention of many lapsed fans and kids alike. However, he also criticised the line's heavy reliance on [[redeco]]s of the same few molds, and the hollowness of most of the [[plastic]] parts.<ref>{{citesocial|quote=Combiner Wars was an interesting time for us in Transformers. We were just coming off of Thrilling 30, there were a lot of different Transformers that were rendered at different scales. We had a very hardcore collector fanbase. One of the things that we wanted to do with Combiner Wars was introduce the idea of swapability, cross-collectability, and sort of a merging of – I wouldn’t say toy gimmicks, but playability and a certain measure of transformability that sort of a hybrid kid/collector that never existed before. Combiner Wars, while we did have a TV series to go along with it, I think is successful in my mind because we were able to capture the imaginations of fans that maybe hadn’t paid attention to our brand in a while other than perhaps some of the, you know, we had Fall of Cybertron, a few other things that were happening around the same time, but what was cool about Combiner Wars was that it was a toy expression that allowed us to touch on a bunch of different combiners all in the same year. It was an exciting chapter – looking back on some of those Transformers though, they’re definitely heavy with voids, there were a lot of redecos. It was the start of my tenure on Transformers, and I do think that overall though it was a success.|link=https://news.tfw2005.com/2024/08/03/sdcc-2024-hasbro-interview-john-wardens-return-generations-studio-series-combiners-more-513802|name=John Warden|site=TFW2005|title=SDCC 2024 Hasbro Interview – John Warden’s Return, Generations, Studio Series, Combiners, More!|year=2024|month=08|day=03}}</ref>

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Beast Wars toylines]]
[[Category:Combiner Wars| ]]
[[Category:Generation 1 toylines]]
[[Category:Generations toylines]]
[[Category:Unicron Trilogy toylines]]

File:MarvelUS-64.jpg

2024-08-30T14:25:12Z

Jimsorenson: Confirmed with Simon that Delbo provided pencils and Akin inks

{{MarvelUScover|Moby Dick with giant robots.|64|Deadly Obsession|[[José Delbo]] and [[Ian Akin]]|90}}

Trion (disambiguation)

2024-05-29T13:28:21Z

Jimsorenson:

The term '''Trion''' can refer to several different things:

{{disamb|y=[[1997]]|[[Grid Trion]], a location on [[Earth]] so called in ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (franchise)|Beast Wars]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2004]]|[[Ultra Trion]], the [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|Ultra Magnus]] / [[Alpha Trion (RID)|Alpha Trion]] hybrid sage, from the 2001 ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' franchise via ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 franchise)|Universe]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2008]]|The ''[[Trion]]'', the [[Autobot]] ship from the [[2005 IDW continuity]].}}
{{disamb|y=[[2015]]|[[Omega Trion (Cybertron)|Omega Trion]], the Transformer from the [[Unicron Trilogy]].}}
{{disamb|y=[[2016]]|[[Omega Trion (BWU)|Omega Trion]], the Transformer from ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2018]]|[[Beta Trion]], the Transformer from the 2005 IDW continuity.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2024]]|[[Zerta Trion]], the mysterious figure from the [[Energon Universe]].}}
*One of the many [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trions]].

{{disambig}}

Trion (disambiguation)

2024-05-29T13:27:52Z

Jimsorenson:

The term '''Trion''' can refer to several different things:

{{disamb|y=[[1997]]|[[Grid Trion]], a location on [[Earth]] so called in ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (franchise)|Beast Wars]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2004]]|[[Ultra Trion]], the [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|Ultra Magnus]] / [[Alpha Trion (RID)|Alpha Trion]] hybrid sage, from the 2001 ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' franchise via ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 franchise)|Universe]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2008]]|The ''[[Trion]]'', the [[Autobot]] ship from the [[2005 IDW continuity]].}}
{{disamb|y=[[2015]]|[[Omega Trion (Cybertron)|Omega Trion]], the Transformer from the [[Unicron Trilogy]].}}
{{disamb|y=[[2016]]|[[Omega Trion (BWU)|Omega Trion]], the Transformer from ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]''.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2018]]|[[Beta Trion]], the Transformer from the 2005 IDW continuity.}}
{{disamb|y=[[2024]]|[[Zerta Trion]], the mysterious figure from the [[Energon Universe]]}}
*One of the many [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trions]].

{{disambig}}

User:Jimsorenson

2024-04-22T13:59:43Z

Jimsorenson:

[[Image:Sorenson Quadwal.png|right| ]]
I make a lot of pages here when I have free time.

Oh, and I write [[Jim Sorenson | Transformers books]]. BUY THEM NOW!

:[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1631402102?tag=thar-20 Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac] - a guide to all seasons and all comics and toys of Transformers Animated seasons 1 & 2 written from an (almost) entirely in-universe perspective, including a peek at what S4 would have looked like.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1600104886?tag=thar-20 Transformers: The Complete Ark] - a buttload of character models from G1, spanning the entire US series and all Japanese G1 series, Headmasters through Operation Combination.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613773501?tag=thar-20 The G.I. Joe Field Manual Volume One] - the character models from the first sixty-five episodes of G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613775482?tag=thar-20 The G.I. Joe Field Manual Volume Two] - the models from season 2 of G.I. Joe and the animated commercials, plus the DiC series.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613779437?tag=thar-20 Legacy: The Art of Transformers Packaging] - a gorgeous hardcover coffee table book featuring the box art from G1 and G2, US and Japan.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613776624?tag=thar-20 The Transformers 30th Anniversary Collection] - a compilation of important issues from Transformers comics history.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613777906?tag=thar-20 Transformers: The Art of Prime] - a hardcover high-format book covering the aesthetics of Transformers Prime, complete with interviews and essays from the principal visual creators of the show.

:[https://www.amazon.com/dp/1974710580?tag=thar-20 Transformers: A Visual History] - a deluxe art book spanning 35 years of Transformers, also available in [https://www.amazon.com/dp/1974710572/ a limited edition slipcase with five prints].

:[https://www.amazon.com/Angry-Birds-Art-Movie/dp/1631406043 The Art of the Angry Birds Movie] - the definitive look at the art that went into making The Angry Birds movie.

:[https://www.amazon.com/Art-Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles/dp/B0C4XVLFRX The Art of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem] - a gorgeous hardcover art book for the best TMNT animated movie chock-a-block with interviews and quotes and behind-the-scenes illustrations.

I blog, over at [http://boltax.blogspot.com Disciples of Boltax], where I share new character models along with Transformers and other science-fiction reviews. I also make a lot of [[Cybertronian language | Transformers fonts]] - you can see them in [[Revenge of the Fallen (video games) | video games]] and [[Transform Your Way |ad campaigns]] and [[The Ascending issue 3|comic books]]. Oh, and I once got to voice my favorite character, [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] at an official Transformers function, which put an enormous smile on my face for about a week.

So, that's me. Who are you?

Buck Rogers

2023-10-26T19:11:18Z

Jimsorenson: /* Notes */

'''Buck Rogers''' has something to do with extraordinary events.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave ''G.I. Joe/Transformers'' comics===
[[Duke (G.I. Joe)|Duke]] likened [[Cobra]]'s incredible [[Flight Pod]]s to something "straight out of Buck Rogers". {{storylink|Targets of Opportunity}}

===2005 IDW continuity===
Before flying out to fight the [[Decepticon]]s in [[New York City]], [[DJ (G1)|DJ]] told Buck Rogers to eat his heart out. {{Storylink|All Hail Megatron issue 1|All Hail Megatron #1}}

The time-displaced [[Sgt. Savage]] compared himself to Buck Rogers. {{storylink|When Eagles Scream}}

==Notes==
*[[Gil Gerard]] had portrayed Buck Rogers in the short lived live action series, ''Buck Rogers in the 25th Century''.
*The fictitious ''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]'' character [[Pete Prometheus]] is presumably inspired by Buck Rogers.
* Buck Rogers was originally published by John F. Dille Co., a newspaper syndication business founded by [[Flint Dille]]'s father. Consequently, Flint is now a partial owner of the Buck Rogers IP and is actively involved in trying to revive the franchise.

==External links==
*{{w|Buck Rogers}} at Wikipedia

{{DEFAULTSORT:Rogers, Buck}}
[[Category:Real-world cultural references]]
[[Category:Generation 1 humans]]

Transformers Valentine's Day Special

2023-09-08T16:59:56Z

Jimsorenson: /* Notes */

{{Comicstory
|seriesissue=''[[Transformers (2019 comic)|Transformers]] Valentine's Day Special''
|prev=
|prev2=
|next=Open Comms
|caption
|image=TFVDay-cvrA.jpg
|title="Transformers Valentine's Day Special"
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|date=[[February 12]], 2020
|coverdate=February 2020
|written by=[[Patrick Ehlers]]
|art by=[[Jack Lawrence]]
|colors by=[[Josh Burcham]]
|letters by=[[Jake M. Wood]]
|editor=[[David Mariotte]], [[Tom Waltz]] and [[Riley Farmer]]
|continuity=[[2019 IDW continuity]]
|chronology=
}}

'''Glyph and her friend Tap-Out are two 'bots from entirely different walks of life, but will an expedition to a distant world bring them closer or drive them apart?'''

==Synopsis==
Bookish and reserved, [[Glyph (Universe)|Glyph]] has lent her insight to the technical aspect of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]'s Xeno-Relations division for many years, but the data analyst has hoped to take a more active role in understanding other cultures throughout the galaxy, and so she's overjoyed when department head [[Nautica (G1)|Nautica]] approves her proposal to study the native civilization on the remote world of [[SDS-359]]. Glyph's first port of call is her friend [[Tap-Out (Universe)|Tap-Out]]; formerly a respected gladiator, the pugilistic 'bot and his sparring partner [[Apeface]] have been reduced to performing exhibition matches in front of a bored crowd since [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]'s closure of the old arenas, and their latest bout ends prematurely after all two members of the audience walk out—followed not long after by Apeface, who warns Tap-Out that, on a planet where nobody cares about [[gladiatorial combat]] anymore, they're ''both'' out of a job.

Glyph bumps into Tap-Out just after this humiliation; already fed up and cranky, Tap-Out does his best to feign enthusiasm for Glyph's new career change despite his own bad luck. He's caught off guard when his friend reveals the real reason why she's come to him: preliminary research on her assignment reveals that the planet is above the minimum threshold of hostility, meaning that Cybertronian explorers are allowed to bring a 'bot along for security purposes... and so Glyph wants Tap-Out to be ''her'' bodyguard for the duration of the voyage. Tap-Out uses the flight to SDS-359 to keep in shape, training for whatever lies ahead; privately, however, he's not sure that he understands her work, and wonders why she would even bring him, a 'bot who primarily thinks with his fists, along on a mission that requires a gentle diplomatic touch.

As their starship touches down in the verdant forests of SDS-359 some time later, a welcoming party of tiny native mammals greet the two [[Transformer|Cybertronian]]s as they disembark. Tap-Out is pleased at their warm reception, but disappointed that the planet's idyllic, seemingly peaceful environment have left him with nothing to do. Glyph, meanwhile, approaches the natives and tries to greet them in their native tongue; her attempts at first contact go poorly, however, when the natives flee in terror from the two visitors! Glyph realizes that she's evidently misspoken the native language, but it's too late to make amends: the natives pull open a giant stone door and unleash a monstrous reptilian creature on the pair. Itching to fight, Tap-Out quickly steps up to defend his charge and takes out the beast with a single punch... and finds himself surrounded by cheering natives, celebrating his victory over their guardian!

Over the next few days, Glyph's xenolinguistic research stalls out; the natives refuse to engage with any of Glyph's attempts to understand their language, only reacting to shows of violence—shows that are in no short supply, as Tap-Out finds new fame amongst the aliens as he defeats one guardian creature after another. One evening, Glyph finally delivers her ultimatum to Tap-Out, now festooned in tribal symbols of adoration, as he returns from his latest fight: Glyph needs Tap-Out to try to talk to the aliens; evidently, ''he's'' doing something right that ''she'' can't emulate.

Uneasy and out of his element, Tap-Out approaches the village fire and hesitantly tries to open up a dialogue, but the moment he tries speaking their native languages, the creatures once more turn on their champion, pelting him with rocks and summoning another guardian... a guardian bigger than anything Tap-Out's yet faced. That's when Tap-Out hears a wild warcry, and watches in awe as ''Glyph'' hurtles to the rescue in her vehicle mode, snatching Tap-Out's club and using it to deliver a fatal blow to the creature! The pair finally embrace and admit that they're glad to be with one another, no matter what.

Some time later, Glyph composes her final xenolinguistics report, pleased to report that she and Tap-Out have finally been able to crack the secret of the native language and open communications with the aliens. By battling guardian beasts together and learning to trust one another, their mutual trust has been reciprocated by their hosts, who have welcomed them into the tribe. Language, Glyph reports, isn't merely based on arranging words, but on emotions and values; to ''truly'' communicate, one must first come to understand others, and understand that everyone is capable of trust, fear, hope... and love.

Their research done, Glyph and Tap-Out prepare to return to Cybertron, taking in one last sunset as they board their starship. Glyph asks Tap-Out if he's going to miss this beautiful world, but Tap-Out smiles and answers in the native language... as long as he has Glyph, he won't miss ''anything''.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=

|h2=

|h4=[[Transformer|Cybertronian]]s|c4=
* [[Glyph (Universe)|Glyph]] (1)
* [[Nautica (G1)|Nautica]] (2)
* [[Tap-Out (Universe)|Tap-Out]] (3)
* [[Apeface]] (4)
* [[Mudflap (G1)|Mudflap]] (5)
* [[Ruckus (G1)|Ruckus]] (6)
* [[Grit]] (7)
* [[Pipes (G1)|Pipes]] (8)

|h5=Others|c5=
* SDS-359 natives (9)
* SDS-359 animals (10)
}}

==Quotes==
"I'm sorry! This place was harder to find than the old arenas." <br>
"That solves the mystery of why no one was in the crowd. It's not that I'm a has-been and my livelihood was delisted by Sentinel Prime. It's not that my '''partner''' bailed the moment we lost the audience. It's that '''the place was hard to find'''."
:—'''Tap-Out''' and '''Glyph'''

"Natives respond to shows of violence and little else...in fact, nothing else.... <s>they worship him, which I know he likes.</s> Strike that last observation."
:—An excerpt from '''Tap-Out's''' log

"You screwed up the translation." <br>
"Yeah, well, you broke my club."
:—'''Tap-Out''' and '''Glyph'''

"I am glad to be here with you." <br>
"I am glad to be '''anywhere''' with you."
:—'''Tap-Out''' and '''Glyph''' have a nice moment

==Notes==
===Continuity notes===
* Chronologically, this story appears to be set some time before [[The World In Your Eyes Part One|issue #1]] of the main [[Transformers (2019 comic)|''Transformers'' ongoing comic]]; there's no mention of the burgeoning [[Decepticon|Ascenticon]] crisis and [[Nautica (G1)|Nautica]] has not yet left with [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] for their tour of Cybertron's outlying colonies. Glyph was previously mentioned in [[The Cracks Beneath Your Feet Part Five|''Transformers'' issue #11]] as having decrypted some vital information related to [[The Rise]], so presumably this will happen ''after'' she and Tap-Out return to Cybertron.
* Tap-Out glumly notes that Sentinel Prime has delisted "gladiator" as an allowed profession; this gels with dialogue in ''[[Transformers: Galaxies|Galaxies]]'' [[Constructicons Rising, Part 2|issue #2]], which established that gladiatorial combat as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] had known it during the [[Expansion|Age of Expansion]] had been recently abolished.
* Despite the title, the story itself has nothing to do with the Earth holiday [[Valentine's Day]] aside from theme.

===Transformers references===
[[File:TFVDay-Glyph.jpg|250px|right|thumb]]
* Originally created for [[BotCon 2002]] as part of the short-lived ''[[Transformers: Expanded Universe|Expanded Universe]]'' toyline, Tap-Out and Glyph made their first fictional appearance in 2002's [[Betrayal|BotCon comic]], which established that Tap-Out had worked as a bodyguard for the quiet linguist while stranded on an [[Akalo|alien world]]. Their relationship in that comic was not expounded on beyond a single scene in which Tap-Out said a fond farewell to his compatriot; this issue reimagines parts of that ''Universe'' story to include confirmation that this version of the pair are (now) in a romantic relationship.
* Tap-Out's backstory, meanwhile, hews closer to the history of his [[Tap-Out (Animated)|''Animated'' counterpart]] rather than his other Generation 1 iterations; like ''Animated'', this version of the character is a boxer who trains with a punching bag, showing off his powerful uppercuts during his bouts with the native wildlife.
* [[Mudflap (G1)|Mudflap]], a block-coloured 'bot based on ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' [[Mudflap (Cybertron)|Mudflap]], makes a cameo appearance on page three. Other passers-by on the same page resemble ''[[Transformers: Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' [[Cliffjumper (Energon)|Cliffjumper]]/[[Beachcomber (Energon)|Beachcomber]] and [[Inferno (Energon)|Inferno]].
* In the same panel as Mudflap is someone who shares a head but not body with ''Cybertron'' [[Thundercracker (Armada)#Cybertron|Thundercracker]].
* As she rescues Tap-Out, Glyph is shown to possess a retractable [[Mouthplate|faceplate]] based on her original toy.

===Real-life references===
* One of the many guardians Tap-Out faces is drawn to resemble the Japanese movie monster {{w|Gamera}}.

===Errors===
* During the montage of Tap-Out's victories, Glyph's log incorrectly names the planet "SDS-356".
* Tap-Out's dialogue on page 12 reads "so much easier that hitting something", when it should be "than".
* On page 15, Tap-Out's face and body paint are miscoloured black, rather than pink.

===Other trivia===
* Backmatter for this comic includes a bonus backup story, "[[Open Comms]]", and concept art of both Tap-Out and Glyph by artist [[Jack Lawrence]].
* This issue was originally solicited with a backup story written by [[Kate Leth]] and [[Cohen Edenfield]],<ref>[https://previewsworld.com/Catalog/DEC190656 Original ''Previews'' solicitation]</ref> but IDW issued a solicit update in late January 2020 that replaced their credits with one for [[Sara Pitre-Durocher]], who produced the backup story ultimately included with the issue.<ref>[https://previewsworld.com/Article/239272-Product-Changes--0121 ''Previews'' product changes for January 21, 2020]</ref>

===Covers (2)===
* '''Cover A:''' Glyph and Tap-Out share a moment, by [[Jack Lawrence]] and [[Priscilla Tramontano]]
* '''Retailer incentive cover:''' Cosmos pines, by [[Sara Pitre-Durocher]]

<gallery>
File:TFVDay-cvrA.jpg|Cue the wah-wah guitar.
File:TFVDay-cvrRI.jpg
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
* ''[[Transformers: Galaxies]]'' [[Wannabee, Part 1|#5]]
* ''Napoleon Dynamite''
* ''Locke & Key
* ''[[The Transformers: The IDW Collection]]''

==References==
{{Reflist}}

==External links==
* [https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/preview-idw-transformers-valentines-day-special Preview]

[[Category:Transformers (2019) issues]]

Daniel Ross

2022-12-18T00:38:44Z

Jimsorenson:

{{disambig3|Daniel}}

[[Image:Mouth04.jpg|right|180px|thumb|No, ''not'' [[Banana Ice]].]]
'''Daniel Ross''' (aka '''Mouth04''', born '''Daniel Ross Weiner''') is an Emmy-award winning American actor and voice actor, one of his latest roles being [[Donald Duck]] in ''[[Mickey Mouse|Mickey]] and the Roadster Racers'' (in lieu of his long-time voice actor Tony Anselmo).

Ross is also an active member of the ''Transformers'' [[fandom]].

==Voice roles==
===OTFCC03 ''Transformers Universe'' script reading===
* [[Reptilion]]

===OTFCC04 ''Transformers Universe'' script reading===
* Reptilion
* [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]]

{{note|Daniel Ross got these roles by winning a voice acting contest at the listed conventions. Before 3H's bankruptcy and ultimate loss of the Transformers convention license, Ross would also have been tapped to portray [[Rook (Universe)|Rook]] in eventual audio content.}}

===''Transformers The Game''===
*[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]
*[[Hound (Movie)|Hound]]
*[[Mixmaster (Movie)|Mixmaster]]

===''All Hail Megatron'' motion comic===
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]

===Ask Vector Prime===
* [[Rook (TransTech)|Rook]]

==External links==
*[http://www.actordanielross.com/ www.actordanielross.com]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1405391/ Daniel Ross at the Internet Movie Database]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Ross, Daniel}}
[[Category:Activision]]
[[Category:English voice actors]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2022-07-30T12:14:59Z

Jimsorenson: /* Proposal re: G1 pages */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2022-07-30T01:11:04Z

Jimsorenson: /* Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki */

Casey Kasem

2022-07-03T12:00:40Z

Jimsorenson:

[[Image:CaseyKasem1.jpg|right|160px|thumb|He also wants to know what happened to the pictures he was supposed to see this week!]]
'''Casey Kasem''' (born '''Kemal Amin Kasem''', [[April 27]], [[1932]] - [[June 15]], [[2014]]) was an American voice actor. Among other roles, he was best known as the original voice of Shaggy Rogers from the ''Scooby-Doo'' franchise, Robin from ''Superfriends'', Merry Brandybuck from ''Return of the King'', and Alexander Cabot III from ''Josie and the Pussycats''. He also had some kind of radio show or something. Chances are you've heard of it.

He really hated it when up-tempo numbers preceded dedications to dead pets. He also hated [[Abdul Fakkadi (G1)|offensive stereotypes]].

In June 2014, Kasem passed away due to complications from Lewy body dementia.

==Roles==
===''The Transformers'' cartoon===
*[[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]]
*[[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]]
*[[Doctor Arkeville]]
*[[Dread slaves|Robot slave]] ("[[Chaos (episode)|Chaos]]")
*[[Teletraan I]]

==Notes==
*Mr. Kasem left the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original Transformers cartoon]] during production of the third season episode "[[Thief in the Night]]" because of its depiction of the highly stereotypical [[Abdul Fakkadi (G1)|Abdul Fakkadi]] as dictator of made-up Arab state [[Socialist Democratic Federated Republic of Carbombya|Carbombya]].<ref>[http://www.ameu.org/The-Link/Archives/Arab-Defamation-in-the-Media.aspx Casey Kasem on Arab Defamation in the Media]</ref> Kasem's family is Lebanese {{w|Druze}}. Kasem had elaborated that it wasn't that he minded Arabs being portrayed as villains ''per se''; it's just when the villains are the ''only'' Arab characters in a story and there are no positive counter-examples that he felt offended. He supposedly didn't have a problem with "[[Aerial Assault]]" due to both sides being portrayed. Kasem's departure led to all of his characters being retired as opposed to recast. Though inconvenient as a whole, this also fortuitously lined up with the destruction of Teletraan I in "[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5]]", leading to its replacement [[Teletraan II]] (whom Kasem was originally meant to voice as well) being voiced by [[Frank Welker]].
**At the unofficial convention TF Expo 2022, [[Flint Dille]] recalled that Casey tried unsuccessfully to get Flint fired from the show by complaining to [[Jay Bacal]] about Fakkadi.
*The third season credits spell his first name as Kasey.
*[http://www.vegetus.org/vegtoon/cc.htm In deference to Mr. Kasem], [[Doctor Arkeville]] should be assumed to be a vegetarian. We don't think we have to worry about the [[Autobot]]s.

== Footnotes ==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0440487/ Casey Kasem at the Internet Movie Database]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Kasem, Casey}}
[[Category:English voice actors]]

Casey Kasem

2022-07-03T11:59:46Z

Jimsorenson: /* Notes */ at the Saturday dinner screening of FFOD

[[Image:CaseyKasem1.jpg|right|160px|thumb|He also wants to know what happened to the pictures he was supposed to see this week!]]
'''Casey Kasem''' (born '''Kemal Amin Kasem''', [[April 27]], [[1932]] - [[June 15]], [[2014]]) was an American voice actor. Among other roles, he was best known as the original voice of Shaggy Rogers from the ''Scooby-Doo'' franchise, Robin from ''Superfriends'', Merry Brandybuck from ''Return of the King'', and Alexander Cabot III from ''Josie and the Pussycats''. He also had some kind of radio show or something. Chances are you've heard of it.

He really hated it when up-tempo numbers preceded dedications to dead pets. He also hated [[Abdul Fakkadi (G1)|offensive stereotypes]].

In June 2014, Kasem passed away due to complications from Lewy body dementia.

==Roles==
===''The Transformers'' cartoon===
*[[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]]
*[[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]]
*[[Doctor Arkeville]]
*[[Dread slaves|Robot slave]] ("[[Chaos (episode)|Chaos]]")
*[[Teletraan I]]

==Notes==
*Mr. Kasem left the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original Transformers cartoon]] during production of the third season episode "[[Thief in the Night]]" because of its depiction of the highly stereotypical [[Abdul Fakkadi (G1)|Abdul Fakkadi]] as dictator of made-up Arab state [[Socialist Democratic Federated Republic of Carbombya|Carbombya]].<ref>[http://www.ameu.org/The-Link/Archives/Arab-Defamation-in-the-Media.aspx Casey Kasem on Arab Defamation in the Media]</ref> Kasem's family is Lebanese {{w|Druze}}. Kasem had elaborated that it wasn't that he minded Arabs being portrayed as villains ''per se''; it's just when the villains are the ''only'' Arab characters in a story and there are no positive counter-examples that he felt offended. He supposedly didn't have a problem with "[[Aerial Assault]]" due to both sides being portrayed. Kasem's departure led to all of his characters being retired as opposed to recast. Though inconvenient as a whole, this also fortuitously lined up with the destruction of Teletraan I in "[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5]]", leading to its replacement [[Teletraan II]] (whom Kasem was originally meant to voice as well) being voiced by [[Frank Welker]].
**At the unofficial convention TF Expo 2022, [Flint Dille] recalled that Casey tried unsuccessfully to get Flint fired from the show by complaining to [Jay Bacal] about Fakkadi.
*The third season credits spell his first name as Kasey.
*[http://www.vegetus.org/vegtoon/cc.htm In deference to Mr. Kasem], [[Doctor Arkeville]] should be assumed to be a vegetarian. We don't think we have to worry about the [[Autobot]]s.

== Footnotes ==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0440487/ Casey Kasem at the Internet Movie Database]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Kasem, Casey}}
[[Category:English voice actors]]

Sidney Biggles-Jones

2022-01-09T14:43:44Z

Jimsorenson:

{{factions|cobra|decepticong2}}
{{disambig2|the Cobra scientist|the power plant named after her|Sidney Biggles-Jones Memorial Solar Fusion Plant}}
:''Sidney Biggles-Jones is a [[Cobra]]-aligned [[human]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family]].''
[[File:Drbigglesjonescasual.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Here I go, here I go, here I go again. Girls, what's my weakness? Men!]]

Doctor '''Sidney Biggles-Jones''' is a Cobra scientist. The designer of an electromagnetic [[rail gun]], Doctor Biggles-Jones's dedication to technology has given her uncanny bravery even in the face of seemingly insurmountable threats. She knows that science can level all playing fields; if one side is more advanced, victory for the other side is a simple matter of understanding the opponent's technology. Far from a shut-in, Biggles-Jones is in peak physical condition and knows how to carry, aim, and fire a weapon half her size.

She also wears knee-high boots, tights, and a stunning, contour-hugging one-piece under her open, flowing lab coat.

==Fiction==
===Marvel ''Generation 2'' comic===
[[File:Drbigglesjones.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|left|If she was a president, she'd be Babe-raham Lincoln.]]

Biggles-Jones and fellow Cobra recruit [[Scarlett]] (actually a G. I. Joe spy, sshhh!) were off hunting enemies of Cobra in the [[Silent Castle]], which unfortunately led to Scarlett getting injured by [[Snake-Eyes]]. Things got worse when a half-dead [[Megatron (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Megatron]] showed up at the castle {{storylink|Unfoldings!}} and [[Cobra Commander]] managed to piss him off! During Megatron's attack, an admirably confident Biggles-Jones declared that just because his technology was alien, didn't mean it was better than ''hers'' and even trash talked it as non-energy efficient!

She proved this by injuring the Decepticon with a rail gun of her own design. An impressed Megatron made a deal with [[Cobra Commander]]. He would trade Cybertronic technology from the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] for a new body which would incorporate the rail gun. {{storylink|Realignments}} When given her first glimpse of the wonders of the Ark, the doctor was rapturous with delight. {{storylink|Goin' South}}

However, she was not a typical Cobra member—or, indeed, truly a Cobra at all. She cared about the welfare of the injured Scarlett and concealed the fact that she knew Scarlett to be an undercover agent for G.I. Joe. In fact, she ''herself'' was a double agent, sent by some unknown force to infiltrate and undermine Cobra.

Unbeknownst to the doctor, the Commander had already betrayed her and offered her to Megatron as part of the deal. Megatron decided to [[Protoplasm stripper|extract]] and freeze her brain for transport to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Scarlett, repaying Biggles-Jones for saving her life, confronted Megatron to save her. {{storylink|Sucker Punch}}

[[File:Megs-Says01a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|That's right, a captured woman is going to get lobotomized in an issue called "Sucker Punch." Larry Hama, you clairvoyant, you.]]

Scarlett's bold challenge allowed a squad of [[Autobot]]s, led by [[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]], to intercept the reborn Decepticon Leader and free Biggles-Jones. The Autobots soon found that they were no match for Megatron's newly enhanced body, and the encounter eventually led to the deaths of [[Steeljaw (G1)|Steeljaw]], [[Chase (G1)|Chase]], [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] and [[Override (G1)|Override]]. After dispensing with them, Megatron relentlessly chased the Joes, who were attempting to escape with Biggles-Jones. Having witnessed the nobility of the slain Autobots, the scientist willingly surrendered to Megatron, who reclaimed her and stowed her aboard the Ark before departing.

While on the Ark, Megatron revealed that he knew that the rail gun was infected with a computer virus designed to render it inoperable. Megatron explained that he'd transferred the virus to the technology he'd given to Cobra, making it all useless. Megatron and his prisoner blasted off for Cybertron. {{storylink|Final Transformations}}

[[File:Drbigglesjonesscarlett.jpg|left|thumb|I've got your back, girlfriend.]]
However, [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] had sneaked onto the Ark during Megatron's battle with Cobra and combined with [[Fortress Maximus (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Fortress Maximus]], his old [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]] body, whom he had abandoned there years before. Soon after, Fortress Maximus confronted and battled Megatron, allowing his fellow stowaway, [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]], to free Biggles-Jones. Unable to defeat Megatron in combat, Fortress Maximus decided to destroy the reactor core of the Ark and asked Spike to leave and escape with Skydive and Biggles-Jones. Spike declined and instead sacrificed himself along with Fortress Maximus, destroying the Ark for good. However, not only had Skydive escaped with Dr. Biggles-Jones, but Megatron too had escaped to plague the Autobots another day.

Skydive returned Biggles-Jones to [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]], where she was welcomed by Scarlett with a warm hug. {{storylink|All or Nothing!}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
In a different reality, Megatron decided not to remove her brain but instead binary bonded to her as a [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]]. {{storylink|Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 7, 2015|Ask Vector Prime, 07/08/2015}}

===Island Revolution!===
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|Island Revolution!}}}}

==Toys==
===''G.I. Joe and the Transformers''===
[[File:ClubCrossoverExclusive.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.66|]]
*''' G.I. Joe featuring Ninja Force and Transformers''' (2016)

:Dr. Biggles-Jones was only available as part of a box set that was sold through both the [[Transformers Collectors' Club]] store and the G.I. Joe Collectors' Club store, both of them operated by [[Fun Publications]]. Other figures and accessories included in the box set were [[Blackcat (G1)#Toys|Blackcat]], [[Cobra Commander#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Cobra Commander]], [[Scarlett#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Ninja Force: Scarlett]], [[Ratbat (G1)#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Ratbat]], [[Megatron (G1)/toys#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Megatron]], [[Toaster#Toys|Toaster]], and [[Crusticon|The Crusticons]].
{{-}}

==Notes==
[[File:NinjasOwnTheNight-SidneyBigglesJones.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|"Okay, I'll join Cobra, and I'll trade in my skirt for a leotard, but I get to keep my labcoat, all right?"]]
*Dr. Sidney Biggles-Jones is introduced in ''[[G.I. Joe (comic)|G.I. Joe]]'' #135 ("Ninjas Own the Night", for seriously) as head of the "Rail Gun Project" for Amalgamated Super-Conductor Corp. in [[New Jersey (Earth)|New Jersey]]. After she is abducted by Cobra, she and Scarlett are convinced by Cobra Commander to join their terrorist organization so that their accomplishments will not be overlooked due to their gender. Part of the "becoming a terrorist" process is apparently trading in one's sensible skirt and slippers for a leotard and boots. Labcoats are still permitted.
*Dr. Biggles-Jones' first name is only given in the G.I. Joe issues prior to the Transformers' involvement.
*In ''G.I. Joe'' [[Goin' South|#140]], we learn that the [[United States Department of Defense]] has 'a pipeline into Cobra.' Odds are good that this was supposed to be Dr. Biggles-Jones, though we never learn for sure that this was who she was working for.
*Dr. Biggles-Jones has since been subject to continuity divergence, though strictly in non-''Transformers''-related stories. In [[Devil's Due Press|Devil's Due]]'s post-Marvel ''G.I. Joe'' comics, she was mentioned as being held in a Cobra prison and in a coma. She was later listed on a computer screen as having been killed. ''However'', in [[IDW Publishing]]'s continuation of ''G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero'' (which disregards the Devil's Due continuity altogether), Biggles-Jones is still active in Cobra, furthering research in [[Battle Android Trooper]] technology and participating in the creation of a new giant robot.

==External links==
*[[wikia:gijoe:Dr. Sidney Biggles-Jones|Dr. Sidney Biggles-Jones at Joepedia]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Biggles-Jones, Sidney}}
[[Category:Cobra]]
[[Category:Headmasters]]
[[Category:Marvel Generation 2 humans]]
[[Category:G.I. Joe]]
[[Category:Scientists]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2021-10-19T23:29:01Z

Jimsorenson: /* Merge ROC Micromasters with Hasbro Micromasters */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/N99Bygq our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Changing format of some older pages. ==

Hey everyone, it had been discussed earlier today on Discord that the G1 [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] page is in need of a complete revamp. Suggestions had been made to archive the original format of the page to keep the joke alive and available for those who still wish to see and admire it, while starting fresh in our standard character page format. It is nothing against the running joke per se, it mainly boils down to the rhyming starting to take its toll on the information that the page is supposed to present to readers of the wiki. I myself, before joining the wiki and even now, always avoid the page like a plague, as it is hard to navigate and actually obtain any information from, which goes against what the page is intended to do.

That doesn't mean all of the rhyming has to go, it is still welcome in the opening paragraph and image captions, but general consensus on Discord is that it could do to be more informative. I also believe that the long-running joke is starting to take its toll on editors adding any new additions while trying to keep with the rhyming format and quite frankly, I believe that to be another downfall to the article since the wiki is made to be as accessible as possible for anyone to edit and it just adds another layer of complications. I bring this up here rather than on the talk page as it has also been suggested that the same be done to G1 [[Rewind (G1)|Rewind]]'s page too for the same reasons.

I advice that you please make these discussions on the individual talk pages: '''[[Talk:Wheelie (G1)]]''' and '''[[Talk:Rewind (G1)]]'''.

Feel free to bring up any other pages worth making similar changes to '''here''' as there is bound to be others that could do to be looked over too.

Thank you and Happy 2021 to all! -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:53, 1 January 2021 (EST)

:'''Just a quick follow up after reading back over what was said on Discord:''' We could possibly keep the pages as is and keep them as the featured articles they are currently, while having a suite with a link to a more informative version, therefore keeping the jokes and also having a variant that actually makes "sense". Funny still wins as the main page and the other can be for readers to actually learn something more about the characters. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 06:39, 1 January 2021 (EST)
::I'm for redoing both into normal prose. Save the jokes for the intro. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:36, 1 January 2021 (EST)

== All the human collaborators should have a page ==

The Human collaborators is the concept of [[Human]]s being allied with the [[Decepticon]]s. It exists since the beginning of the brand, brought to existence in the [[Megatron's Master Plan]] Duology from the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Transformers G1 cartoon]] and appeared for the last time in [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Transformers: Dark of the Moon]], With DOTM 10th year anniversary on the horizon, i'm thinking of creating a page for all them. In fact i'm creating a sandbox about it and i want to know if its a good idea to do that or not. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 14:21, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:Our existing "Category:Humans" is in pretty bad shape. It's divided into dozens of subcategories already so that the "main" listing is nowhere near a single comprehensive list. Instead people went and added subgroups like "Classified Humans" and "Military Humans" and many many etc. From an educational resource perspective it would probably be more useful to streamline the category we already have. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:41, 18 January 2021 (EST)
::Okay i'll streamline the "Category:Humans" but how am i supposed to do that? --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 15:42, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:::Decepticon human collaborators have been around a lot longer than just season 2 of G1. [[Doctor Arkeville]] was actually the first Decepticon ally. Even then, characters collaborating with Decepticons had been around in the years in between G1 and DOTM. the Marvel G1 comics, Dreamwave comics, IDW comics and such, more than likely had a lot of instances where that was a thing too (I'm not too familiar with a lot of those comics). ''Animated'' had some of the human villains working with the Decepticons on some occassions too.

:::As for the human collaborators page, I don't feel that a separate page needs to be made, there was never a collective group or organization of them, just occassional cases of random people being told what to do while more or less being held at gun point, or on some occassions, given the sweet promise of world domination. I think if anything, Thylacine's idea of making a subcategory would probably be your best bet, but a better name would be "Decepticon allied humans" or something. As far as I'm aware, there is no page for Autobot allied humans (which there are crap tons of), so there is really no point in making one for the Decepticon allies. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:10, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:::: It most certainly is not "my idea to make a new subcategory." We have too many subcategories already. Most of them are dumb and are at the expense of having a useful, comprehensive Human category.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:09, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:There really is little to no point to a page for this concept; a category will do. That'd just be opening up for countless list-pages of random Things People In Fiction Sometimes Do, and this wiki is historically not keen on list pages. There's a lot of stuff characters do/are that don't have pages just because the concept is too vague, too broad, or too obvious that a page would not actually provide any new information (or comedy potential) on how its use within ''Transformers'' fiction is different from the immediately obvious. There's no page for "ninjas" (that just links to the Category), but "Cyber-Ninja Corps", a very specifically-defined group of ninjas, does get a page.
:And... look, not to sound mean, but... if you have no idea how a big major overhauling project might be done, maybe you should leave that task to someone else. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:40, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:Besides "bad guys" like Shawn Berger or Doctor Arkeville, does Spike count when he went nuts as Autobot Spike and used Megatron to fire on the Autobots? Or do [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]] and [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] count when the Autobots had a truce with the Decepticons against a [[Dark Star|cosmically-powered Starscream]]? Or take [[Skywarp (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Skywarp]]: he joined G.I.Joe and worked with them. Does that make all of G.I. Joe human collaborators? I hope not. If someone has to think this hard about who actually belongs to a category, it will actually clutter up the wiki instead of clarify relationships. Everything that ''could'' be grouped doesn't necessarily benefit from a page or category. It may be worth noting briefly ''on individual character pages'' about some characters' tendencies to work with Decepticons. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 19:31, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:Okay it seems a page won't really be necessary, so i won't do it. But i'm until now trying to know how am i supposed to streamline the "Category:humans"? --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 22:37, 18 January 2021 (EST)
::Coming up with the answer to your question is the bulk of the task itself. It's a lot of work and there's no immediately obvious and clear approach. If you'd like to try something, use a sandbox and communicate with us here. If you need a lot of guidance, it's best to leave it to someone else like Sipher said. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 22:14, 19 January 2021 (EST)

::I think i'll create a category called "Human Collaborators", but only after the "Category:humans" is streamlined, which is something someone must do here since i don't know how to do this and by doing so will help this wiki a lot. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 19:56, 21 January 2021 (EST)
:::I honestly think that is the ''opposite'' of what we need. The first thing to be done after streamlining should not be the addition of more subcategories. The point has been made that there are too many human subcategories already, and I agree. You seem very intent on specifically adding information about Decepticon-allied humans. Keep in mind that this is not an official faction. This is effectively like creating a category about "Humans With Yellow Boots and Blue Pants and Hard Hats". Yes, that group exists, but unless it's very funny, we don't need it. Going forward, I recommend focusing on contributing to what the wiki lacks (say, by adding information on our pages with stubs) instead of searching for differences without distinction. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 21:04, 21 January 2021 (EST)

== Finishing the "Story sections" in the Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (PS2/Wii) and (PSP) pages. ==

The story of the PSP and PS2/Wii versions of Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen video game must be concluded and i wanted to do this myself, but i'm having difficulties due to my family and i making preparations to move out. So the question is: Can someone insert the synopsis of the remaining chapters of each version of the game here? Because if you can it will help this wiki a lot. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 15:25, 31 January 2021 (EST)
: That is entirely contingent on whether or not any of the regular contributors own the game or a system to play it on. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:07, 31 January 2021 (EST)

What's the matter? can't someone see it on Youtube and then write what they've saw on the articles? Because that's how i got the information about the story of the games i insert here. In fact that's how i got the necessary info to create the [[Quest for Optimus Prime]] and [[MechTech Wars]] online games and to insert the story of [[Transformers: Shadows Rising]]. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 21:14, 31 January 2021 (EST)
:You know, petulantly whining at other people to do work there is absolutely no rush on, on a site done on a volunteer basis, doesn't really get any of it done faster. Tends to ''dis''incentivize people to do it, actually. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:42, 1 February 2021 (EST)
::The pages have been stubs for this long, I doubt having them being left a little longer will hurt anyone. They're bound to still be there once you're done moving and have more free time on your hands. There's no rush. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 07:33, 1 February 2021 (EST)

== Micro-Sized ==

Hey all, was wondering if we should make a page/archive for the Mini-Con/Micro-Sized profiles from the Collectors' Club website and magazine?

They seem to be rather important pieces of fiction for a lot of those Mini-Cons and I feel we should have some form of proper write ups or a proper link to archives of the profiles themselves at the very least. Half the character pages have the profiles summed up in brief opening paragraphs but some people (me included) may want to read some of the online profiles which the Collectors' Club website doesn't appear to have anymore.

Just an idea I thought might be interesting to look into. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:04, 31 January 2021 (EST)

:Yeah, but... is it legal for us to archive that material? I honestly don't know what the current status is of fiction produced under FP (or 3H, for that matter). Does Hasbro "own" it? Does Brian Savage? Does anybody? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 12:48, 24 February 2021 (EST)
::Fun Publications produced that material under license from Hasbro and TakaraTomy. I assume Hasbro owns it just as they enable their current comic partner IDW to reprint Marvel and Dreamwave material. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 12:57, 24 February 2021 (EST)

== New signups temporarily suspended ==

New signups have been temporarily suspended due to excessive vandalism. Apologies for the inconvenience. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 04:04, 28 February 2021 (EST)
:And now they should be back on. Thank you for your patience. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:46, 7 March 2021 (EST)

== Reducing negative ''Energon'' episode notes. ==

Alrighty, since the wiki has been taking a pretty neutral approach to things over recent years and we had already decided on reducing excessive sarcasm and negativity to the ''Energon'' cartoon page, I feel the episode pages should probably follow suit.

I'm just started my annual rewatch of the show and I'm going to add, subtract and alter things like I did in the ''Armada'' episode pages after each watch. I'm already making a start on removing pieces of sarcasm listed as "trivia" that ''really'' doesn't need to be highlighted and is only there for the sake of bashing the show.

That being said, errors, plotholes, continuity issues etc. are fine, but the "pain count" sections probably should either be removed or be relabelled as "stock phrase count" or something along those lines. I'm personally still alright with the caption jokes and quote jokes, but the excessive "This character sucks because the show sucks." is definitely a no go.

After a disscussion on Discord, it had also been suggested that we list common stock phrases from the Unicron Trilogy on a separate page much like we do for [[Furmanism]]s. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2021 (EST)
:Before anyone goes to the trouble of creating an entire "Energonisms" page, it is worth examining whether the series is well-known or well-liked enough for that to be worthwhile. Furman wrote hundreds of comics & scripts across multiple series and about 25 years; his repeat phrases are more noticeable and important. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:36, 2 March 2021 (EST)
::I still disagree with the concept of "Furmanisms". They're just pulpy phrasing. It's hardly unique to him. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:14, 2 March 2021 (EST)
:::I'll be honest, the Furmanisms page is filled with rather common oldschool comicbook phrases that aren't ''really'' unique to him or ''Transformers'' for that matter. You can almost guarantee that those phrases have been used in even older comics from the 60s, like ''X-Men'' for example. Hell, they've possibly been used in material even older than that. I generally stay clear of anything that makes references to that page, because it is full of blurred lines. Perhaps this should also be a topic for discussion. In terms of Energonisms, I personally don't agree with it either, but I thought I better bring it up for those who aren't on Discord.
:::My main concern right now is whether we should remove the "pain count" sections from the episode pages. As I've been binging the show and updating episode info, I've been working around them, but they still hold a heavy tone of negativity while everything else around them has been altered to the neutral tone. I've tried to think of a better title to use in its place, but the further through the episode pages I go, the more excessively negative it seems to get. Yes there are a ''lot'' of stock phrases used, but if people start to include other ones that haven't already been listed—and there are quite a few—pretty soon we're gonna end up with entire dub scripts for the episodes listed lol. As for stock footage counts, it's common in practically every Japanese ''Transformers'' series (From BWII onwards at the very least), so listing them is just another example of adding things to bash the show. Our [[Transformers Wiki:Captions#Captions and jokes we're sick of|captions/jokes policies]] also state that ''Energon'' jokes are pretty much frowned upon by today's wiki standards.
:::As I am writing this post, it has also occured to me that ''Cybertron''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s episode pages have pain counts that follow the same outline too (listing stock phrases and stock footage), so perhaps we should look into removing those for the same reasons. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 06:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::I feel it should be pointed out that many of the stock phrases from Energon ("Uh...", "Huh?" "Let's do it!", "Wait up!" etc.) were first used by the same dubbing team back in Armada. If any new page is going to be created for those phrases, it's only fair that those from Armada (and probably from Cybertron too) be included since those phrases are not exclusive to Energon even if it's in that show that they're the worst offender. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:58, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::I agree with removing the pain counts and overall negativity from the UT-related pages, while I disagree with creating the "Energonisms" page because that would neuter our efforts to remove said negativity. I also never cared for Furmanisms so I don't even see a reason for that page to still exist tbh. [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 13:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::I don't think there's a need for Energonisms, but I think Furmanisms need to stay based solely on the fact that they're a known factor and both Furman and other creators have leaned into their existence in self-referential and parodical ways, enough that it makes sense to have a page explaining them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:34, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::::It's funny you say that, Fritz. ''Armada'' was the first place to use the stock phrases, yet the episode pages were absent of any pain counts or any real negativity in general. As for ''Cybertron'', listing the pain counts on those pages seems to hold the same weight as the negativity I pruned down on the main ''Armada'' page a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be an outdated case of critisms that were made when the show first came out. In my experience, ''Cybertron'', while still not perfect, still remains the pretty widely enjoyed out of the three shows among the Facebook groups and stuff I've been in.

:::::::At the end of the day, I don't feel it's really the wiki's place to tell people how to feel towards something. It's one thing to mention issues and critisms, but when you're pushing personal opinions onto the reader, making them steer clear of the show entirely instead of letting them form their own opinions, it doesn't really help keep the history of the brand we're supposed to be documenting alive. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 15:28, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::::The keyword there is "outdated." Energon is from 2003 and the "pain count" stuff was probably all written in 2007 or so. In 2021 no one is creating canon with ironic joking references to a hypothetical Energonism, and even if they did, the whole source of complaint is that the dialogue is so interchangeable and empty that if someone were to say it in a future series it would probably just be seen as unrelated new bad dialogue. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:44, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::::::So I guess we're all pretty much on the same page here then. From the response I got on Discord a few days ago and the repsonse here, it seems pretty clear that the "Pain counts" should go. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 16:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::::::Totally agree with you there, Fanofcoolstuff27. I watched ''Energon'' and ''Cybertron'' for the first time just last year and actually enjoyed the latter a lot. At the time I felt that the pain counts were harming my own enjoyment of reading the wiki after watching each episode and I even consider removing them by myself. So I'm glad this is finally up for debate and other people are agreeing on getting rid of them. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:27, 5 March 2021 (EST)
I think this kind of went off on a big digression about "Energonisms" and personal liking of the series, but I think this is enough consensus to reduce the negativity of the Energon articles. (The episodes could use better summaries as well.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:35, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:The pain counts can go, but I'm 100% against removing the overal tone of negativity. Like it or not, Energon is a dull show with an objectively mediocre dub, and consistently remains the most disliked of any televised Transformers cartoon. To try and soften that in the Energon articles almost feels like a disservice to 20 years of near-universal fan rejection. (And the reason we say not to make Energon jokes on the caption page was because they were getting excessive across the whole wiki. That said, while other pages shouldn't be saddled with such jokes, there's no reason to sugarcoat things on the Energon articles themselves.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:41, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::Agreed, and definitely on that last point. Energon is garbage in any language, and I feel we do a disservice to act like it's not a rushed, cheap, ugly job by the lowest bidder that runs out of plot halfway through its episode count and has to start over even BEFORE you take into account the first-draft English dub. And yes, the captions page remark about it and many other objects of derision is mostly about the ''unoriginality'' and ''over-use'' of adding ''new'' joke captions about it, not "it's wrong". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:35, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::See, my issue here isn't neccessarily the negativity itself, more the overuse of it. I've already taken it upon myself to remove silly pieces of "trivia" that aren't trivia at all and are more just an attempt to bash a bad show. You can mention all of it's flaws and whatever, there is no problem with that. It's the constant nitpickiness that is added, when just about ''every'' Transformers show has more or less the ''exact'' same issues. The line between openly pointing out issues in one show and turning a blind eye to those same issues in other shows is ''very'' blurred.

:::Given our recent response on Discord towards the removal of "Pain counts" from the Energon episode pages, perhaps we could at least settle with a mid-ground compromise. My proposal: The removal of stock footage from the counts. It's not exclusive to Energon at all, so listing them as a ''bad'' thing builds a pretty poor case. Yeah, there is a ''lot'' of stock footage use, but the show is to sell Transformers toys, so highlighting the brand's main attraction is hardly a crime. BWII, BWN, RID/Car Robots, Robot Masters, Armada/Legends of the Microns, Energon/Super Link, Cybertron/Galaxy Force, Animated, Go!, RID 2015 and I wanna say Cyberverse (?) are all guilty of using stock footage. Only about three of them are English-speaking original shows, while the rest of them are Japanese shows. It's practically been a tradition to include stock footage transformations and combinations at this point. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:31, 5 March 2021 (EST)

== Voice actor categorization ==

I really don't like the idea of putting voice actors into company categories based on shows or games they've appeared in (see [[:Category:Activision]] or [[:Category:DreamWorks]] for example). This seems a little disingenuous, considering that none of these are employees of these companies, but rather freelance. Furthermore, this doesn't include all the different shows' production companies, but rather more like picking and choosing at random. If you were to categorize them at all, I would either do so based on the studio the series was recorded at (such as Voicebox or Studiopolis) or make new "(show) voice cast" categories. (But honestly, my first choice would be to not do so at all.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:17, 6 March 2021 (EST)
:How about we create nested categories such as "Category:Activision freelancers"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:34, 22 March 2021 (EDT)
::"Category:Activision voice actors"? Maybe something similar with other videogames or tv series'/movies? "Category:____ voice actors". [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:39, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

== Energon Terrorcons ==

I'm having issues with the way we have the ''Energon'' Terrorcon pages currently set up. The pages have a lot of misinformation being spread within them and between them and I'm not entirely sure how we should handle it.

The show presents three different colour variants/breeds/races of flying Terrorcon: Divebomb, a "Stealth Divebomb" (which is the Command Ravage colour palette placed on Divebomb), and the Shadowhawk Cosmo Type/Blackout colour scheme. I've just gone and removed the stealth colour scheme write ups from Blackout's page as they are clearly not the same thing and it would fall under potential citogenesis.

My proposal for this issue would be to move "Blackout (Terrorcon)" to "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" and just make mention of the Energon dubs' cock up with the names as a note or that an individual Terrorcon named "Blackout" is also among them. Much like "Command Ravage", "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" is also an official name and it's my understanding that if Hasbro names aren't available, we generally opt for the Takara names instead (e.g. [[Mirror]]), and because "Blackout" is referred to as an individual rather than a race/breed, it would be hard to use that as an offical English-language designation. I also don't feel that there would be enough to warrant an individual Shadowhawk Cosmo Type page and a Blackout page, as they'd contain most of the same information.

Secondly, I'm wondering if the stealth decoed Divebombs warrant their own page under a nickname title? e.g. [[Watchdog (G1)]]. They are clearly a different breed to the two aforementioned races and with the Command Ravages being present alongside them, it only seems fair to mark them on a separate page too. If others agree, I was thinking maybe "Stealth Divebomb" or something, as the title—unless ''Super Link'' has a better term used in the episode?

Thirdly, and the least important of noting on this list of issues: The Planet Q natives featured in the flashback (before the planet was destroyed) use both the Shadowhawk Cosmo Type model and a recoloured version of the Battle Ravage model in the same colours. Do these Battle Ravage redecos warrant a page or is a note on the respective mold pages enough for them?

Thank Primus that the Insecticons and Cruellocks don't suffer from this issue of multiple breeds/repaints presented on-screen.

Let me know what you think. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:49, 10 March 2021 (EST)

:I would make a "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" article for that color scheme in general, but keep the Blackout article for that specific individual. All of the other weird color schemes like "Shadowhawk Desert Type" could just go on the regular article, with notes pointing out their existence. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:35, 10 March 2021 (EST)

::Sounds like a plan. I'll get a sandbox started for the Cosmo Type Terrorcons. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 15:44, 10 March 2021 (EST)

== Excessively long toy pages ==

Let's face it. A few pages such as "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]]" and "[[Megatron (G1)/toys]]" have become so long that they can slow down a device just to be loaded. Will we allow indefinite expansion such that page scrolling time will balloon further? We need to do some kind of split that will set up a second page for many years to come. Some months back, there was a discussion on the Discord server suggesting the start of ''Generations'' in 2010 as a useful dividing boundary. Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:38, 13 March 2021 (EST)
:I agree with the split from ''Generations''. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:36, 13 March 2021 (EST)
::If no one is against this split, I might make a start on it now because I was editing the G1 Prime page before and I was worried it was going to make Chrome crash with how long it was taking just to load the previews for my edits. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 07:22, 14 April 2021 (EDT)
:Regarding Megatron, I propose splitting out all non-transforming gun mode accessories that were available with other figures into their own page. There are a ''lot'' of those, and they don't need to clutter up a page along with the transforming figures.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 07:59, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

== Template:quote and Template:bigquote ==

Why do we have both of these? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:39, 16 March 2021 (EDT)

:the big one looks much better and less confusing. i suggest getting rid of the normal one. --[[User:GobotsFanForever|GobotsFanForever]] ([[User talk:GobotsFanForever|talk]]) 07:48, 16 March 2021 (EDT)
:While I find the big one hideously obnoxious and would suggest getting rid of it.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:32, 16 March 2021 (EDT)
:sorry, it turns out that for some reason, the normal quotes were not showing up properly on my computer. but now they are. now the big quotes do seem kinda unnecessary. --[[User:GobotsFanForever|GobotsFanForever]] ([[User talk:GobotsFanForever|talk]]) 21:11, 16 March 2021 (EDT)

== Merge or not to merge the ROTF toyline and N.E.S.T. Global Alliance pages. ==

I think we should merge the [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|ROTF toyline]] and the N.E.S.T. Global Alliance pages, since they're both from the [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] movie, along with the fact that some toys from that [[subline imprint]] are in the ROTF page. Besides, the reason why users here want their pages to be merged is the same from the [[Transformers: Armada (toyline)|Armada]] and The Unicron Battles, which by the time of this talk, they're already merged. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk: Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 16:52 18 March 2021 (EST)
:I'm down with that. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:40, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

==All those Takara BW-era-ish named weapon pages==
So this caught my eye... we have a buncha pages for the various named weapons from the BW2/Neo-era toys, and... do we need them at all? Do these pages actually contain enough unique information to justify them? I mean, we got individual pages for Archadis's "[[Wing Gundread]]s", "[[Wing Bomb]]s" and "[[Founder Shot]]", and not a one of them has anything that the actual Archadis page doesn't cover. Seems like most of these don't have any special effects like the "torque rifle" or "electro-scrambler" and such; it makes more sense to have those pages since the special effects are all right there without having to sift through non-weapon info, which feels like a good resource for writing purposes to see how these special weapons were used. But if they're all just normal old blasters and swords and whatnot, the individual pages are basically just severely chainsawed versions of the character pages. Feels kind of pointless and wasteful of the reader's time to point them at these pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:27, 30 March 2021 (EDT)
:After going through it all, I'm starting to think this is a valid point. Half of these weapons wouldn't even have enough information to fill a page to be quite honest—and that's after filling the fiction stubs too. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 08:24, 31 March 2021 (EDT)

==New Molds are Not News==
It quickly gets repetitive for toy entries to say such-and-such is a new mold. I think we should have "new mold" be the default, unsaid expectation, instead pointing out when toys are retools / redecos. "Actually a new mold" should be saved for occasions when something looks or is widely perceived to be a remold but actually isn't (i.e. Smokejumper / Energon Starscream). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:03, 7 April 2021 (EDT)
:Agreed.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:58, 7 April 2021 (EDT)
::Agreed. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:54, 7 April 2021 (EDT)

== Impending upgrade ==

My intention is to attempt an upgrade of the wiki's core software tomorrow. It is not going to be a large jump in versions, so I don't anticipate it will break anything, but you never know. I'll post again here closer to the time. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 05:17, 23 April 2021 (EDT)
:In, let's say, around about three hours. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:16, 24 April 2021 (EDT)
::Ten minute warning! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 02:49, 24 April 2021 (EDT)
All done. Please go about your business. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 03:20, 24 April 2021 (EDT)

== Change to combiner team member lists? ==

Inspired by some comments Chris was pointing out from his new Aerialbot video, I was thinking about how we could better contextualise the various extra/alternate members most combiner teams have wound up with over the years, rather than simply putting them all in a plain list that can, for instance, wrongfully give the impression that Balloon is a noteworthy Aerialbot and not a literal joke. Put together a sandbox to show what I was thinking: [[User:Jalaguy/Sandbox/Aerialbot]] - thoughts? I think this is one of those occasions - like Unicron's history and stuff - where going out-of-universe for a bit is the best way of communicating important context to the reader. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:15, 24 April 2021 (EDT)

== Request and code review for adding JS-based tabbed tables ==

A few of us were inspired by the tabbed tables on other wikis. For example, [https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort the Kingdom Hearts wiki], a main character has tables that contain "Profile" and "Journal" tabs. This request is strictly about tabs, not general infoboxes. I pulled the relevant JS and CSS and created a [[Template:Tab]], and added the custom JS and CSS to my user page, and things seem fine. The tabifier only relies on jQuery, so we don't need to add anything extra. I have videos of the behavior on our Discord too.

Would it be possible for an admin (abates?) to review the proposed additions, and if approved, merge them into the page load?
:JS: https://github.com/tf-wiki-discord/wiki-utils/blob/main/tabber.js
:CSS: https://github.com/tf-wiki-discord/wiki-utils/blob/main/tabber.css

Thanks for reviewing/considering! [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 13:22, 29 April 2021 (EDT)
:What's the intention to use tabs for? My main reservation would be with user experience. E.G. putting stuff behind a tab hides it from a browser search, so if a user googles a term and ends up on a page where the mention of that term is hidden behind a tab, they might not be able to find it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:57, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

::One intended use-case would be supplementary. For most Transformers, I can imagine a "tabbed mainpic", one tab being bot mode and the other being the alt mode. I'm thinking particularly about a ''[[The Transformers Universe|Transformers Universe]]'' or Dreamwave's ''[[Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More Than Meets the Eye]]'', where bot mode and alt mode are viewable together as a single visual unit. And this is extendable to triple- or multi-changers, or can be ignored for Action Masters. This use is not restricted to mainpic use either. I don't think images of alt modes being hidden behind a tab is worse than things are now. [[User:Saix|Saix]] and [[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] may want to weigh in here. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 19:42, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

:::This is essentially a prelude to a more specific policy proposal once we get the machinery up and running and start working with it but I believe this concept of a "tabbed image" to display all modes of a character model, toy, etc without compromising readability to be perhaps the most potent utility of this technology. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 20:25, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

::::I can see this possibly being useful for toys that end up with multiple modes used within fiction like any of the ''Legends'' and ''Generations Selects'' characters with canonized "fan-modes" that get a little crazy to document in a single image or maybe having the Hasbro and Takara variants in a tabbed system?

::::The only thing I find that could potentially go wrong using a tab system at the top of an article for robot and alt modes, is the fact that G1 characters (as an example)—especially in the JG1 fiction—have been through multiple bodies with multiple vehicle modes. Even G1 Prime hasn't been the same exact flat-nosed cab for the 35+ years between American continuities. So this still kinda falls under the whole "prioritizing one thing over the rest" argument that the info box discussion created on Discord. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:42, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

:::::I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves on the specifics of implementation at this juncture but I will say we've gone round on the philosophy of potential "alt mode mainpics" a bit on the Discord and I believe it would be important to emphasize consistency with the character model selected for the bot mode mainpic as opposed to getting lost in the weeds of a character's "one true alt mode" or what have you. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 21:29, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

== New bot account on site ==
I wanted to give a heads up that we have a new bot account on the site: [[User:FuncGammaBot]]. This account is owned by the developer of the WikiClientLibrary library that [[User:Teletraan-X]] uses for logging in to the site. The developer asked to use us for testing his code against MediaWiki 1.19 because Fandom no longer has a 1.19 site for them to test against. I consulted with abates and since he had no issues with the developer using us for unit tests, I let them know it was okay. Unit tests are automated code tests that are run to make sure that: A. a new code fix works and B. that said new code fix doesn't break something else. This testing will allow the library to continue workinga and thus Teletraan-X to continue working while on TFWiki is on version 1.19. The account will only be interacting with it's own sandbox and not making any edits to actual content pages or the like. I wanted to let everyone know so they aren't wondering what this weird account is doing only editing sandbox pages. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 15:46, 17 May 2021 (EDT)

== Establishing gallery pages for characters ==

So it seems we (and creators) have run into problems with poor references (especially regarding alternate modes) and there's the simple fact that there's a huge lack of ''any'' central resource for official ''Transformers'' renders and art (aka assets)—especially for older media like ''Beast Machines''. In that regard, I'm proposing we create gallery pages for at least characters with multiple bodies and incarnations and also serve as a repository for art. I've created [[User:Saix/Megatron (BW)/gallery|an example for Beast Megatron]] that I hope will illustrate what I imagine those galleries to look like. Any thoughts or concerns about this? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:33, 27 May 2021 (EDT)

== Technically correct but needlessly vague section headers, unhelpful "fiction first" format ==

I stumbled across this on the [[Cyclonus's Armada]] page. For reasons unknown to me, the section that covers how Marvel's comic adaptation of the 1986 animated movie handled Cyclonus and "his Armada" is placed under the not-so-obvious header "Marvel future timelines", with a storylink leading to "Judgment Day!", which I have to click in order to find out that it's actually not a UK future timeline story, but the comic adaptation of the movie. This is not helpful. Especially when there's currently still a deeplink further down in the "Origins" section that links to a now-defunct "Marvel The Transformers: The Movie comic adaptation" section.

Also, I feel like the "Cyclonus's Armada" section is suffering from the "fiction first, real life background information later" format. In cases where the subject of a page is a major conundrum that's more notable for the mystery surrounding it than for its fictional portrayal itself, I propose we should ingore the standard and put the background information above the fiction sections in order to make those pages more accessible to casual readers I'm not sure yet if that should be applied to [[Swerve (Chevy)]] as well.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:30, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

[[Krunix (G1)]] might also benefit from an "explanation first" format. Not quite sure yet regarding [[Mister Johnson]].--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:53, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

== Repurpose notes ==

Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to add a bit to the repurposed toys note to identify where this happened? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:09, 9 June 2021 (EDT)
:That is a logical course of action. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:26, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Beast Era parentheticals ==

As already discussed here on [[Talk:Silverbolt (G1)#Earth Wars BW Silverbolt IS NOT G1 SILVERBOLT|jetliner Silverbolt's talk page]], ''Earth Wars'' has clarified the need to reestablish the original Magnaboss toy trio as their own individuals with separate pages. For some consistency, what is our take on how the parentheticals will work out when Fuzors and Transmetals have not appeared outside the ''Beast Wars'' franchise?

Is this preferable?<br>
Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (BW eagle), Silverbolt (BW Fuzor), Prowl (G1), Prowl (BW lion), Prowl (BW Transmetal 2)

Or is this preferable?<br>
Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (BW eagle), Silverbolt (Fuzor), Prowl (G1), Prowl (BW lion), Prowl (Transmetal 2)

Should the Fuzor and owl still have "BW"? I point out that such labelling does serve as a handy signal for readers as to which franchise a wiki URL belongs. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:20, 12 June 2021 (EDT)
:"(BW Transmetal 2)" is definitely too long. In Owl Prowl's case, he either ought to stay at "Prowl II" (due to the complications of his past, or in consistency with Transmetal 2 Dinobot similarly being at "Dinobot II"), or be moved to either "Prowl (BW owl)", "Prowl (BW TM2)", or just "Prowl (TM2)". Of those choices, I'm leaning towards either "Prowl (BW owl)" since it would be consistent with "Prowl (BW lion), or "Prowl (TM2)" since Transmetals 2 are still just a BW-only thing. The latter would also enable the lion to be as "Prowl (BW)", unless that's too misleading since he isn't the only BW Prowl, in which case "(BW lion)" and "(BW owl)" would be the most concise.
:As for the Silverbolts, I've given my piece about them, but for a recap, I'm for "Silverbolt (BW eagle)" and "Silverbolt (BW Fuzor)", with "Silverbolt (BW)" redirected to the latter. While the Fuzor is unquestionably the more prominent of the two, the eagle came first and was, for a whole year, the only BW Silverbolt in existence at the time. He has every right to the "(BW)" tag just as much as the Fuzor does. Keeping "(BW)" in the title of both makes it immediately clear that both are BW-original characters without ever having to read the article.
:Frankly, I am not a fan of "(Magnaboss)" as a tag since, to the uninformed, "Silverbolt (Magnaboss)" and "Prowl (Magnaboss)" make it look like we're saying that this Silverbolt and this Prowl are each "a Magnaboss", which is misleading for anyone who doesn't know who or what Magnaboss is. Sure, it only takes a second to read their articles, but "(BW eagle)" and (BW lion) are more direct and to the point, instantly getting the message across that they both originated from BW.
:And if the eagle gets to keep "BW" in its tag, then certainly the Fuzor should as well since, as mentioned, he is the more prominent of the two BW Silverbolts and shouldn't be forced to lose his "BW" to the eagle, even if the eagle has just as much right to it. Ergo, they both can share. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:51, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
I vote for the first option except for Prowl the Owl, who I think works best as Prowl (BW Owl).
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 01:34, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
:I'm personally thinking "Prowl (BW)", "Prowl (TM2)", "Silverbolt (eagle)" and "Silverbolt (Fuzor)". To me it just needlessly over complicates things by having "(BW eagle)" and "(BW Fuzor)" because we don't go "[[Swerve (Universe)|Swerve (Universe -insert whatever specifics here-)]]" and "[[Swerve (Chevy)|Swerve (Universe Chevy)]]", we try to keep the character page titles as short and sweet as possible. With that, I'd also propose that we move "Dinobot II" to "Dinobot (TM2)" because I don't recall him ever being referred to by that name in the cartoon and it certainly wasn't the name given to the toy. As far as I can tell that was just something the sourcebook added to differentiate between multiple characters with the same name (e.g. Magnaboss II and Silverbolt II). We've also tried to move away from those sourcebook naming conventions due to a lot of them being incorrect or misleading in the wider scheme of things, especially for the Japanese characters. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:48, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
::TM2 Dinobot was referred to as "Dinobot 2" in the Dreamwave Summer Special and as "Dinobot II" in Beast Wars Sourcebook. It's not a thing we made up. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 08:14, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
:I continue to be opposed to inventing "compound tags" that aren't canonical terms. "Magnaboss" is a canonical term, just as much as "Stunticon," and I don't think it's so confusing to potential readers seeing it that they wouldn't think to click the link and understand just how it was possible. My votes: Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (Magnaboss), Prowl (Magnaboss), Prowl (TM2), Silverbolt (Fuzor). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::As I had just stated on [[Talk:Silver Bolt]] and [[Talk:Prowl (Magnaboss)]], I'm actually in favour of using the "(Magnaboss)" parentheticals for all three of the Magnaboss components, after seeing how it looks as an actual page title. It unifies them and is simple and the most effective imo. I am still 100% against using the animal alt-modes in the titles as it just looks unprofessional and made up, as Thylacine had more or less pointed out. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:38, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
:::If we ''really'' have to, we could always make it "(BW Magnaboss)" as a happy medium. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:42, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
::::That's redundant. "Magnaboss" is simple and straight to the point. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:09, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Rethinking Shattered Glass as a franchise/continuity family ==

Between the “Shards” mini-series, the new Generations Selects toys, and an increasing amount of high end collector statues, it seems like the concept of a ''Transformers'' mirror universe isn’t going away any time soon. All mirrorverse fiction since the original comic has latched onto the title “Shattered Glass”, even when that name hasn’t been applied to that particular fiction, creating “ghost” franchises like “Shattered Glass ''Animated''” and “Shattered Glass ''Movie''”. Given that these have no bearing on actual franchises – there’s no “real” “Shattered Glass ''Cybertron''”, for example – I’m proposing that we treat “Shattered Glass” as less of a series of franchises and more as one big continuity family.

It’s true that:

a) continuity families are a fake idea made up by the wiki to allow for easier organisation

b) big concepts that span numerous franchises go on one article, e.g. [[Autobot]], [[Decepticon]], [[Cybertron (planet)]]

c) sometimes two characters from different continuity families share a page when they are either straight up the same guy ([[Side Burn (RID)]], [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]), or when their appearance is so negligible that it’s barely worth splitting them ([[Buckshot]], [[Reachout (TF 2010)]])

Given the above, I propose that all of “Shattered Glass” be treated as one continuity family, with subheadings for G1 (the club fiction, “Expectations”, “Recordicons”, SD SG, “Shards”), ''Animated'' (lithographs, bios), ''Movie'' (''Forged to Fight'', high-end statues/merchandise), and whatever other mirror universes are concerned. Character articles should be moved to (SG) namespaces and merged where appropriate.

I’ve whipped up a rough concept for Optimus Prime in my [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sandbox:Shat|sandbox]]. Let me know what you think of this idea below or on the Discord server. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:29, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
: Absolutely against this. It might be fine for Prime, but there is nothing linking SG Goldbug with SG Animated Bumblebee, for example. We can stand having a few smaller articles, not everything should be merged. We aren't Wikipedia, and I don't want to see this implemented. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:54, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::I kinda like this idea, ''but'' I can also see where this could get ''very'' complicated, ''very'' fast, it's definitely not a "one size fits all" type of solution, as Escargon has stated. If nothing else, I think a continuity family page for SG (if we don't already have one) would be a good idea to have the concept laid out in the one place, since it has been used all across the franchise, but combining character articles and such is definitely looking like a possible issue. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:07, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::Bumblebee would be the exception. An ideal SG Bumblebee article would start with a G1 section to the effect of "Bumblebee was small and looked like Cliffjumper; for more information see Goldbug (SG)" followed by the two relatively similar, quiet-spoken backstabber versions from Animated and Forged to Fight. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 10:16, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::I'm really not sure about that. What's the point of folding them together if you're going to split one of the most prominent ones out? It's all or nothing, in my opinion. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 10:19, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::::Even more than that, there's characters like Rhinox; there's nothing linking the gag character with the morally ambiguous TransTech one. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:22, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::::And before anyone brings up classic examples like Marvel v Sunbow guys, those were characters based on the same toys. Not quite the same with SG guys. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:24, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::::The one thing I agree is that we should have a page compiling all Shattered Glass universes and listing them the same way we do with continuity family pages, like [[Movie continuity family]] for example. Put SG G1 as the "major continuity" and the others as minor. We need this page because most (if not all) SG pages direct to [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass (franchise)]] and that's just plain wrong when we're dealing with SG Animated or SG Movie. All character pages should remain separate, but a singular SG page explaining everything is more than needed. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 12:54, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::::: On that I absolutely agree. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:11, 14 June 2021 (EDT)

:Oof, no. Now, "Shattered Glass" might could use a page for it as a CONCEPT, sticking to out-of-universe discussion of it and how it's been applied to stuff outside the original series. But... not this. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:19, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::I mean, sure, we don't have to treat it as "one big continuity", explaining how the concept expanded is enough. I just think that a page simply listing all instances of a new SG-based universe is going to be important as time goes on if the concept keeps getting revisited. ''And'' would make more sense as a linked page than to link SG Movie Optimus to the original SG franchise page when they have no real connection. It's as wrong as if we claimed that "[[Fire Prime]] is an Autobot from the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|RID]] Animated continuity family". Unless we just use the current SG page for these purposes, but I don't see that as the better option. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:10, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::Honestly, if the aim of this is to try and clear up minor pages people don't want, surely it would make more sense to merge the Shattered Glass versions with the ones they're explicitly spinning off from - ie merge SG Animated into Animated pages. (I am not suggesting this as an actual idea.) Shattered Glass is just the transformers name for "evil mirror version" which stuck around, and no-one is saying we should merge all Nemesis Primes from every continuity family together because they share conceptual DNA and a name. [[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 19:26, 14 June 2021 (EDT)

== Japanese retail ==

In the process of whipping up a comprehensive list of campaign items (those "buy toy X or Y amount of merchandise and you get this fancy exclusive redeco for free" thingies), the current progress of which can be seen [[User:Nevermore/Sandbox/Campaign item|here]], I've discovered that a lot of the writeups for those individual items are oftentimes based on very rough Google translations, and never fixed.

As a result, I've encountered several instances of the same store being given multiple different names, such as "Eiden", "Ideon" and "Eidon" for Edion (which is the spelling in the company's website URL and official logo), or even worse, "White Peony" and "Shirobotan" (or "Shiro Botan") for Hakubotan (again, the spelling in the company's website URL).

Additionally, there is the occasional bad grammar such as "He was an exclusive in Japan to Edion toy counter" or "Japanese stores like [...] Yamada Denki toy department", sometimes chains like "AEON", "EDION" and "BIC Camera" are spelled in ALLCAPS, and the original writeups made it seem like "Hakuhinkan Toy Park Ginza" and "Shiro Botan Ishinomaki" were both the names of chains with multiple stores, when in fact the stores in question were supposedly specific stores, namely the Hakuhinkan Toy Park main store ''in'' Ginza (Toyko's main shipping district) and the Hakubotan store inside the Aeon mall ''in'' Ishinomaki.

I assume these inconsistencies are the result of different people adding those writeups, but geez, what a mess.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 07:39, 16 June 2021 (EDT)
:AAAAAND it turns out that AEON and JUSCO are one and the same company. JUSCO used to be a subsidiary of the larger AEON orporation, but the JUSCO stores in Japan all changed their name to AEON in 2011.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:46, 16 June 2021 (EDT)

==Weapons==
Lately I've been going through (mostly) old Marvel stuff to nail down in-fiction appearances of G1 weapons - see [[Electro-kinetic blaster]], [[Plasma-shell shotgun]], and [[Thermal melter]] for examples. I'm thinking of adding something to the Notes section similar to the "Gadgets and Powers" we do for cartoon episodes but for weapon shout-outs in the comics, perhaps titled "Courtesy of my..." as a more ordered way of keeping track of them. Does anyone have any feelings on that one way or the other? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 08:48, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Request ==

[[Talk:Transformers Legends (comic)#Controversy section]]-if somebody's willing to take this up, I'd appreciate it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:03, 22 June 2021 (EDT)

==Separate voice actor categories by series?==
This is just an off-the-cuff idea, but would it be useful create categories for voice actors that appear in a specific TF series? For example, Peter Cullen would be under "TF 1984 voice actors" (or however we'd title it) and "Prime voice actors," David Kaye in "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Animated voice actors" and so on and so forth. I'm not suggesting these would replace the "English voice actors" category, they would just be in addition to it. Now, granted, I don't know if we would/should separate any Japanese (and other languages) voice actors and make separate categories for each language, which would probably get out of hand or be too much. Or we just lump the non-English VAs with the English ones for each series. Again, this is just a random idea I had and thought I would put it out there for consideration. I totally understand if there is no need or desire for such a thing to be implemented. [[User:Turborun|Turborun]] ([[User talk:Turborun|talk]]) 20:59, 1 July 2021 (EDT)

== Hershey's Kisses Treasure Surprise ==

I just stumbled across some of these that I had forgotten that I had received for Christmas. They are tiny figurines of TF characters packed with four Hershey's Kisses in a light blue clamshell container with a cardboard label wrapper (white card, printed with yellow background to the logos and pictures). The packaging says "Collect all five!" I have only two, but each had a different figurine: Optimus Prime and Starscream. The packaging also shows Bumblebee. To my eyes, the Starscream looks like the Classics design, but they are pretty generic (and my eyes ain't that great). Has anybody else seen these? Where should they be documented? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:47, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
:I've seen them around in the occasional CVS as well, actually; the full list is Optimus, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, and Grimlock, and they all seem to be Evergreen/Cyberverse designs. As for where they should go, I'm honestly not sure. Probably a small page of its own similar to Candy Toy, and a quick write-up in each character's toy or merch section, though I'm not sure whether to list them as G1 or Cyberverse. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:21, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
::To my understanding we've been putting anything Evergreen-inspired under G1, except when they're specifically labeled as Cyberverse. So if the packaging only says "Transformers" and not "Cyberverse", I think they belong to G1. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 12:51, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

== Reintegration of Hasbroverse wiki content ==

I think we should consider migrating the content from the IDW Hasbro Wiki back here. The addition of another wiki made sense as a preemptive measure when the shared universe was first announced and we had no idea how long it was going to run, but with just two years of content, there really didn't end up being all that much, and a sizable chunk of the non-TF books and related content live here already, either fully or partially. The number of links out on [[Rom]]'s page, for example, is rather low. Plus it just looks kinda silly when we have issues [[Wrath of Karza issue 1|#1]], [[Wrath of Karza issue 4|#4]], and [[Wrath of Karza issue 5|#5]] of a series on the wiki, but not {{i|Wrath of Karza issue 2|#2}} or {{i|Wrath of Karza issue 3|#3}}. The only major sticking point is all of the pre-Revolution G.I. Joe issues, which would be a *big* ask to include. I'd be curious to get other folks' thoughts on the matter, though. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 01:16, 23 July 2021 (EDT)

I think the Hasbroverse is Transformers centric enough to be moved to TFwiki, with GI Joe possibly being an exception.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 01:26, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
: I’m fine with post-Revolution stuff being incorporated. It still drives me bonkers that the last Visionaries story isn’t covered here despite 95% of that storyline being here. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:00, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::As for pre-Revolution G.I. Joe, we don't include all of Marvel G.I. Joe either despite both the G1 and G2 crossovers. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 05:04, 23 July 2021 (EDT)

:::It sorta makes sense now. I doubt there will be an attempt to make another shared universe anytime soon. I assume there's a semi-reliable Joe wiki we could link to for the pre-Revolution/post Transformers material, if necessary. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 10:06, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::::Sensible. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 13:06, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think the current IDW Hasbroverse wiki could just be converted to solely IDW Joe, since I don't believe the general G.I. Joe wiki is very comprehensive. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:25, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::::::The general GI Joe wiki is nearly moribund. As an admin there, I invite anyone who wants to to come in and help. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 15:58, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
Can't help with this at all but sounds good, have at it [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 00:25, 25 July 2021 (EDT)
:Echoing others that folding in the remainder of the content between Revolution and Unicron is just sensible and we can cross the Joe bridge when we come to it. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:49, 25 July 2021 (EDT)
I'm gonna leave the discussion open for a few more days to make sure everyone who wants a say can have one, but this seems pretty unanimous so far. That said, while I'm thinking of it, what do we want to do about Jem? The stance on coverage over there is "{{i|Jem and the Holograms (franchise)#Canonicity of Jem in the IDW Hasbro Universe|the characters are canon to Hasbroverse, but the books and stories themselves are not, but we're going to cover them anyway}}". Thus as something that's kinda-sorta-but-not-really related, is that too far outside of scope to carry over, or should those articles be migrated too? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:08, 26 July 2021 (EDT)
:I wouldn't include Jem (or Clue) here. Only media actually in continuity with IDW TF. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:52, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

Well, that's good enough for me. I'm starting a [[User:Cyberlink420/IDWSandbox|central hub]] to keep track of all that pages that need to be moved over or merged with existing pages. Please add to this list as you find pages that need migrating or complete the process. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:37, 6 August 2021 (EDT)
:'''''Further discussion on this topic has moved to [[User talk:Cyberlink420/IDWSandbox|this page]]; please provide your input.''''' -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:57, 6 August 2021 (EDT)

== Pre-''Transformers'' repurposing documentation ==

Hey all, I had been wondering if we should document the repurposings of left over pre-''Transformers'' products in the toy sections instead of the notes sections? Or even both maybe?

I threw together a quick '''[[User:Fanofcoolstuff27/sandbox/Pre-Transformers toys|sandbox]]''' of a couple of ideas I had. The first was just listing them all under the blanket term-header "Pre-''Transformers''" and the other was using their actual franchise of origin as a header (e.g. Diaclone, Micro Change, Microman, etc.).

I just figured that since we document fictional toys of characters that appear in comics etc. under the toy sections, wouldn't it also make sense to add the repurposed Pre-G1 toys? It especially makes sense (to me at least) when a lot of those toys or characters appeared in fiction long before any e-HOBBY, MP or Selects releases of those characters were made, and some of them haven't received official ''Transformers'' updates at all.

Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 00:07, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I believe the central debate here will be whether we consider these toys "in-scope." I do think this structure would generally be more user friendly than what we're doing at present if folks do not consider it a bridge too far. With regards to your sandbox, I would say the most sensible title structure would be the bottom one, as there's no sense in playing coy about the names of these toylines, with "Transformers" and "Pre-Transformers" supertitles when applicable. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:08, 4 August 2021 (EDT)
Okay this concept has since been haphazardly implemented by a few different people with little pushback but the the moment I added a pre-TF toy section to one of my own articles it was removed. So let's try this again. Thoughts on including toy writeups for '''specific products''' from Diaclone, Microchange, Microman etc repurposed in Transformers fiction. We are not talking "inspired by the abstract concept of Waruders" or "new toy shares a color scheme with a Diaclone release" here. Some potential discussion points off the dome:

*'''Cons''' - Strictly speaking out of scope. Could be considered a slippery slope to writing up easter eggs from wholly unrelated toylines. Edge cases could get fuzzy.

*'''Pros''' - Generally more reader friendly than the ersatz toy writeups in the Notes section we're already doing. "Pre-Transformers" is a pretty tightly bounded scope based in franchises we already cover in a limited capacity. If implemented properly this discussion should only apply to tens of articles.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 17:36, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:Actual toy sections are more sensible and accessible than shoving the information into note sections. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:48, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

:I think repurposes of that kind should be covered on the toys sections and not clutter the notes. It's useful information that doesn't harm the articles.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:49, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

:Where has it been implemented, "haphazardly" or otherwise, that pre-TF toys would get listed as TF toys? As you said, it is indeed out of scope and I don't see any possible positives to balance that. Not sure I see how it's difficult for our readers to understand a Note about a non-TF toyline. It's all at the same eye level, but calling it a Toy pretends a toy from 1981 is a Transformer and calling it a Note doesn't. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:20, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::[[Spin-Out (G1)]], [[Cordon]], [[Magna Convoy]], [[Azimuth (G1)]], [[Azimuth (COP)]], [[Ephemeris]], and [[Meantime (G1)]] have varying degrees of implementation, to name a few . -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:55, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:::Spin-Out, Cordon, and Magna Convoy are the only actual changes - the only ones re-categorizing Diaclone toys into ''being'' Transformers toys. Meantime, Azimuth, and Ephemeris are correct, matching [[Headcannon]] and [[Skyklik]] and pre-TF [[Treadshot (G1)]]. Can we please not blur that line? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:19, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::::Sounds like we're talking around about three rough categories of examples here:
::::*Full Pre-TF writeup in toy section - Cordon, Spin-Out, Magna Convoy etc
::::*Pre-TF named in toy section - Azimuth, Ephemeris, Meantime etc
::::*Pre-TF info fully contained in notes - Headcannon, Skyclick, Treadshot etc
::::Now to be clear, "pre-TFs have been sporadically added to toy sections" was intended as a value neutral observation and not part of an argument. If this premise has been satisfactorily established let us return to primary point of discussion, namely "Do we want them there or not." -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 20:22, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::......wow wooow, I didn't even notice that Azimuth and Ephemeris have Toy sections, because they aren't formatted like our Toy sections. I am going to take the liberty of renaming those as Notes sections since this proposal was supposed to be about where we put pre-TF data, not about how maybe every single page should look different now. Anyway, uh. No one has ever opposed including relevant pre-TF toy info. We shouldn't include things that aren't TF toys in our lists of things that are TF toys. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:58, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::[[Kuwagatrer]] was like that before it was reformatted into a normal toy section (not by me, for the record). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:23, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
My concern is that we really DON'T want to have a hundred GoBots and three hundred G.I. Joe toys and however many Ponies written up. That said, when a Microman or Diaclone toy without any characterization gets repurposed into a new guy, having info about the toy seems reasonable. Crossovers, no; stealth repurposing of Takara ancestral products, yes. It's relevant and relatively short, and regardless only applies in a very small number of cases. I'm agnostic as to whether it should go in the Toy section or the Notes section. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:22, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:I will add that these were '''''strictly''''' brought up for left over toys from Takara that weren't merged into the ''Transformers'' rebranding in the 80s and 90s. The way I see it, they aren't all that different to cancelled toys in that they ''could'' have become ''Transformers'' products but ultimately ''didn't'', yet still got fictional appearances anyway, much like BWN Unicron or ''Universe'' (2003) Spacewarp. Besides, who's it hurting? It allows for more wiggle room to flesh out info on the toy itself without the restrictions that a notes section creates. Half of these toys have either been forgotten about or are just unknown to most people and not many places provide info on these toys either, so having that extra info could potentially be helpful for our readers who want to know more.

:Also, quick side note: the Magna Convoy toy AzimuthAcolyte is referring to is his Blue Knight body from the ''Generations Selects'' comic which was a ''Microman'' toy pre-''Transformers''. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:38, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

Diaclone toys aren't Transformers and so they don't go in the Transformers toy section. You want information about them to be more readable? Find a different way to achieve that rather than creating a misleading perception about them by putting them where they don't belong. The first thing in that section should actually be a Transformer. Crazy idea, I know. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 21:00, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

== Creating a foreign name list ==
A complete list page of all so far known foreign names and phrases. Grouped by continuity families, factions and priority. (First Optimus, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream...)
[[User:Kiké Prime|Kiké Prime]] ([[User talk:Kiké Prime|talk]]) 03:50, 6 August 2021 (EDT)
: [[Transformers_Wiki:Policies#We_Hate_Lists]] --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:45, 6 August 2021 (EDT)

== Generations subline toy headers on character pages ==

I believe this has received enough support on Discord and on "[[Talk:Transformers: Generations (toyline)]]", but I am reiterating on the Community Portal for everyone in general. It has become clear that Hasbro considers "''Generations''" a catch-all branding for many unrelated lines. Thusly, though I suggested the fix in the first place, it no longer makes sense for us in a post-''Prime Wars Trilogy'' world to lump together many indented subline headers underneath "''Generations''". Concordantly, a lone ''Generations'' figure such as [[Overlord (G1)#Titans Return|''Titans Return'' Overlord]] can afford to lose the "''Generations''" label in favour of "''Titans Return''" alone. As a proof-of-concept of restoring plain chronological series order, I just overhauled "[[Galvatron (G1)/toys]]". This eliminates the ridiculous placement of the ''Generations Selects'' figure above the ''Kingdom'' figure due to technically being labelled on packaging as ''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' in tandem with the HasLab Unicron pack-in minifigure. In addition, the entry for the ''Legends'' figure is physically nearer to the entry for the contemporary ''Titans Return'' counterpart, and ''Kre-O'' can now naturally come in release order before post-''Thrilling 30'' series. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:50, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:That honestly looks so much better. I've gone and done the same with "[[Megatron (G1)/Generations toys]]" so we have an idea on how it would look implemented on split out pages. I've also shifted the G2 Megatron repaints that were originally categorized under "''War for Cybertron: Siege''" and "''War for Cybertron Trilogy''" respectively to the "''Generations Selects''" header with Super Megatron. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:21, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
::In addition to simply reorganizing the toy headers, we really ought to be treating "Generations" like we treat "Timelines", only using it for Generations 2010 to Thrilling 30 while everything from Combiner Wars onward should be using their respective line names, including with their own disambigs. There are too many uses of "(Generations)" tags in instances where the much more direct "(CW)", "(TR)", "(POTP)", "(Selects)", "(Siege)", "(Earthrise)", and "(Kingdom)" would be far more concise. Generations stopped being the name of its own line as soon as Combiner Wars took it out of the toy packaging's main title logo and moved it to a tiny little brand logo in the corner.
::Even the tie-in media for Combiner Wars through now never used the "Generations" name. The cartoons were "Transformers: Combiner Wars", "Transformers: Titans Return", "Transformers: Power of the Primes", and "Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy". The comic events for Combiner Wars and Titans Return were the same only minus the "Transformers:" part. Even in the TV commercials for each line called them "Transformers: Combiner Wars" and so on, never calling them "Transformers Generations: Combiner Wars" etc.
::These aren't subline imprints, they're their own lines, and ought to be treated as such, right down to having disambiguation tags like "(CW)", "(TR)", "(POTP)", "(Siege)", "(Earthrise)", "(Kingdom)", and "(Selects)". In the cases of FOC and Thrilling 30, those did keep the title as "Transformers: Generations", so those ''were'' subline imprints and should stay as such. It also works to distinguish between Archer Era Generations (a toyline) and Warden Era Generations (an umbrella term/category).
::The current people at Hasbro call these "Generations lines" in the sense that they are each their own line belonging to an umbrella term/category rather than being the same single line that Generations used to be before the changeover of Hasbro teams in 2014-2015. It's basically become how like we would say that Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Japanese Beast Wars, and Car Robots (and arguably Animorphs) are all "Beast Era lines", or like how we'd say Armada, Energon, and Cybertron are all "Unicron Trilogy lines", or like Movie 1, ROTF, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and Bumblebee are all "Movieverse lines". Even things like half of the AOE line and all of Studio Series are officially considered "Generations lines" despite the obvious connotations of "Generations" that most fans do not associate with the Movieverse lines. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:26, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:::I'm fine with changing the section headers and disambigs. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:41, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
::::So I'm taking that we're also changing Movieverse toy sections from "Generations" to "Studio Series". I'm down with that. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 15:11, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::Hmm, you raise an interesting point. How might we implement something like this to, say, [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]], which has multiple different "Generations" headers and sub-headers between one-half of AOE's line, the whole of Studio Series/Movie Edition/Premium Finish, and a portion of Buzzworthy Bumblebee? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:12, 31 August 2021 (EDT)
::::::My solution is, we leave the AOE portion just as it is, as it's already placed separately from the rest of Generations and in the right chronological order, and the "Generations" header is necessary there to separate those toys from the "Robots in Disguise" ones. Studio Series, Movie Edition and Premium Finish should get promoted to their own lines just like CW, TR, POTP etc, and as for Buzzworthy we should just change the "Generations" header to "Studio Series". If we all agree on this, I'd like to help implementing these changes myself. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 01:14, 31 August 2021 (EDT)

==How old should my account be?==
To make captions? [[User:Grimbee|Grimbee]] ([[User talk:Grimbee|talk]])
:It's not about age. Captions are meant to be a reward for users who actually put in the hard work adding proper content to the wiki. And considering you've barely contributed (and most of the things you HAVE posted are jokes, one-sentence articles, or talk page messages telling ''other people'' to do things), doing so would be in poor taste at best. Honestly, if you're only here because you want to add captions, you're better off going somewhere else. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:30, 6 September 2021 (EDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers==
Several on the Discord have voiced assent, so I am bringing the topic here. Our current system for putting disambig headers is unintuitive and overly complex. It creates situations like movie Sentinel who is stuck at (ROTF) thanks to a one line mention, as well as the completely jumbled mess of Aligned, with character pages at (Exodus) or (WFC) or sometimes just (Aligned) etc.

My proposal is we streamline this by just having everybody at the continuity they hail from, not the piece of it. All movie characters at (Movie) and all Unicron Trilogy characters at (Unicron Trilogy) or possibly (UT). An argument I've seen for the current system is that it specifies which part of the family somebody comes from, but the fiction section already shows what parts they are in.

Characters like RID15 Grimlock or Prime Breakdown would be exceptions to this, of course, potentially maybe suite them with the other of their name in that continuity for convenient wiki searching.
[[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 11:15, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:Oh God a thousand times yes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:19, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
I have advocated for this move before so I vote in favor.
There's also a set precedent with Strongarm (G1) being moved from Strongarm (BWU) for the sake of reader friendliness.
Simplifying the disambigs will reduce the amount of initials and individual disambigs one has to go through when searching a specific character.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:25, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:I'm leaning against. Under the current system everything is handled the same way, with a limited number of (G1 Autobot) type clarifiers, but if you go by continuity family first, there are ''so'' many situations that would need further disambiguation that you'd lose all consistency.
:Just think how many Beast Era characters alone reuse G1 character names - you've instantly got huge swathes of characters who are gonna need further disambiguation. So then you potentially have a situation of "Terrorsaur (G1)" versus "Inferno (BW)", where guys originating in the same thing have got a random assortment of disambig tags. So maybe you make an exception for Beast Era and use (BW) and (BM) by default, but then you're starting to get half way back to the current system...
:I'm not really convinced of an "ease of searching" logic because that's not what disambig tags are for, they're just a technical thing because we can't name multiple pages the same thing. If you're looking for a certain Hound, you can just type "Hound" into the search bar and pick the right one off a nice disambig page list, you don't have to try and guess at what the disambig is. (And while it obviously shouldn't be a main reason for any decisions, the amount of link changes and page moves this would require would be absolutely insane.) [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 11:34, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::I definitely agree with ''not'' throwing BW/BM characters down the G1 hole and then having to build ladders of exceptions back out for every name reuse. If we're going to try this at all, start with something that would need the fewest ad hoc fixes possible. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 12:11, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:Not voting one way or another, but just wanted to say that the (WFC)/(Prime) and (Movie)/(ROTF)/(DOTM)/(etc) distinctions are the ones that have actually bothered me in the past. These are the ones where many prominent characters from later instalments share pages with super minor ones from the previous instalments. Conversely, I don't like the idea of merging (BW) and (BM). But creating merges for (Aligned) and (Movie) would solve a lot of headaches. (And, as a side note, the acronym WFC refers to SO many things now.) —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 11:47, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::Instead of trying to change ''almost everything'' with a few exceptions, why not just simply zero in on making "(Aligned)" the main exceptional change? Since it's probably the one that needs the treatment of this proposal the most. For the characters who share names, I'd say neither would get to use the "(Aligned)" tag out of fairness. Like how we currently have the two BW Silverbolts at disambigs other than "(BW)". The two Sideswipes would remain at "(WFC)" and "(RID)", for instance. Same with the two Grimlocks, the two Kickbacks, the two Bludgeons, etc. Luckily, I think most shared-name cases are either with equally minor characters or equally major characters, the biggest exception I see being the Prime and COP Predakings. Maybe a suite could link those two together (along with all the other Prime and COP Predacons) since while each is their own separate person the implication of each Prime one being cloned from the COP ones suggests a biological connection between each one. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:48, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::: I think the whole system could use serious overhaul but I definitely see the value in taking baby steps. Aligned seems to be the one that has the worst current system and the easiest fix so I'm all for giving it a shot. If it works, great, if not we've learned something. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:00, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Thinking more about this, I'm beginning to feel that maybe not ''every'' single-named Aligned character necessarily needs the "(Aligned)" tag. Some do, certainly, like those who have appeared across nearly all of the fiction spanning all of the eras. Optimus, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, who were in all/most of the games, books, ''and'' cartoons should get it. But if someone was only in the games, or only in one cartoon, then maaaaaybe they should be considered less of a priority for the "(Aligned)" tag. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:24, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think I would prefer just moving over the video game characters (and that dumb pop-up disambig) to "Prime". That was the main spine to Aligned, and it's weird how we got pedantic over video games and pretended they were "franchises". [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:32, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
In favor of tackling Aligned first, then thinking about other continuity headings later and separately. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 12:44, 17 September 2021 (EDT)

I just ran the numbers, and if we were to roll with this plan, 296 character pages would need to be moved from their current disambig to "(Aligned)", while 48 would be left as is due to someone or something else with the same name in that continuity. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:09, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:I am for this change. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:42, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::I am down for starting with moving Aligned characters. I think this would help tremendously, especially if it expands to G1 and more (almost made me wish it had a better name but what ya gonna do) [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 15:49, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

I agree with using Alligned as the guinea pig for all the reasons stated above. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:21, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

It sounds like a good idea to me in the long run. Aligned always felt messy as it is now, with so many different potential origin points for characters. I imagine a newer fan might find it confusing.[[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 18:07, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

Absolutely ''against'' using "Aligned". It's not an official designation, it's never been an official designation, and while it's entrenched enough that there's little point in expunging all our uses of it, we shouldn't be using it for disambiguations. That said, considering WFOC to be part of the Prime franchise is something I could get behind. As to an overall "disambiguate by continuity family" approach... mmmnnh I'm not dead-set against it, but it's been debated many, many times in the past, and the decision's always come down to "franchise not family". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:54, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:I think I agree with avoiding "Aligned" for disambigs. Folding WFC, FOC, and COP into Prime would solve a lot of people's issues with the Aligned disambigs, I think. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:06, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
::That's treating a symptom and not the disease. Pretending that they're from a different franchise because if you're too strict about which franchises 'count' you get gibberish is a bandaid. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 22:03, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:::I dunno, WFC, Exodus and Prime were all treated as being part of the same initiative back when they first came out, right? "Prime" is the only part of that with actual franchise branding, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider them part of the same thing. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:15, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
::::It's absolutely not unreasonable to consider them all part of the same thing. But that thing is Aligned, not Prime. WFC was absolutely not Prime branded. And that's the whole point of this. IMO. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 23:01, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::While we're focused on using Aligned as a guinea pig, it should be mentioned, however, "aligned" IS just a word. I watched an interview with FJ Desanto and he mentioned Hasbro wishes Cyberverse and WFC to match up since they are part of an aligned continuity, so key moments should match up like Optimus throwing the Allspark. Idk verbatim but I'm sure I can find it, and I'm SUPER sure they used aligned [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 11:34, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Hypothetically, potentially, in an imaginary alternate universe... is it possible to switch everything back? The next live-action movie is going to be about Beasts and so is its tie-in media. If they invent Movie Manterror and Movie Tigatron, then we're going to have to disambig the prior characters as being from G1 and not BW. And, uh, no. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:41, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:BW is not going to be folded back into G1, period. Any BW characters stay (BW), and in that hypothetical scenario, those pages would get moved to Manterror (BW) and Tigatron (BW). -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:46, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::But then we're using a blatant double standard out of sentimental favoritism, on a huge, un-ignorable, wiki-wide scale. And we shouldn't do that. If we're going to keep the distinctiveness of Beast Wars, we should keep that of Victory. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:20, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::The next movie isn't going to be a Beast Wars movie, though. It's going be a "Rise of the Beasts" movie. Any new Manterror or Tigatron introduced in that movie would have a "(ROTB)" tag. If the movie was to be called "Transformers: Beast Wars", ''then'' we'd have a problem. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 14:26, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::The title of the movie isn't the point. Once there is a shared character name, all with that name get disambigs. There is no "default" Inferno. So once we have to disambig everyone effected, either we stay consistent with our Sept2021 system and disambig "old" Tigatron and Manterror as G1, or we work with multiple different systems for the same function on the same wiki based on subjective favoritism mostly shaped by how old people were when they first found the hobby. EDIT: actually it isn't hypothetical, if we're sticking with the Sept2021 system then Quickstrike (BW) and Depth Charge (BW) must now be disambigged as G1, or we're saying after about 20 hours that we're already largely ignoring our new system but still keeping it around to create confusion. Welcome to Hell. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:32, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Huh? Isn't the Beast Era as a whole already treated as a special case, an umbrella thing, in the same vein as say, "Unicron Trilogy"? I know on a strict continuity sense it's all quote unquote Primax, but the point of this move is a "let's not be nerds about this" thing. AOE Lockdown being at Lockdown (ROTF) is kinda weird; that's what this is about. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:13, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::Beast Era is definitely a special case, otherwise we would have BW Megatron on a different page than G1 Megatron. (And don't say 'but they met each other' because Transformers meet other versions of themselves all the time.) There are also things like [[Strongarm (G1)]] and I do note that we don't have [[Trypticon (G1)]] under [[Trypticon (Scramble City)]] even though he appeared there before anywhere else. We make exceptions all the time when it makes sense to do so. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 15:27, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::BW and BM and their Japanese spinoffs are within the G1 continuity family, no more or less than Masterforce is within G1, no more or less than AOE and ROTF are both within Movie. Unicron Trilogy is its own continuity family, like Movie and G1; it is a higher category than Beast Era. I don't think we've ever made a policy of "treating the Beast Era as a special case" to the degree that we dissolve some major franchises of origin but not others. That doesn't make it easier, because it creates ''dozens to hundreds'' of exceptions that everybody has to actively remember forever, and if someone ever asks why we're doing it, the answer is just "We like the cartoon from 1999 better than the cartoon from 2003, and ''make sure you remember that'', maybe tie a rubber band around your finger or make up a little rhyme to help you." '''We should really turn back, gang'''. We just passed Obsidian (G1), Blastcharge (G1), Hamerstrike (G1), Strika (G1), Tankor (G1)....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:35, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Okay, so, I was tentatively in favour of the change to the WFC/FOC disambigs on the basis of them being games rather than franchises, but I had forgotten that there were Generations (etc) toys released with that branding. I am very much against disambiguating based on continuity, and ''especially'' using an unofficial name like Aligned for that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

==Simplifying Japanese toyline disambigs==
Related tangent—an idea I had was to simplify (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), and (Zone) to just (G1), with obvious exceptions like the Zone faction-switch Microtransformers (and I guess Ricochet since there's already a G1 Ricochet <s>maybe we should move that to Stepper</s>). The same would apply for (BWII) and (BWN) to (BW). Both eras were functionally sold under the general G1 and BW lines by Takara, after all.

And the various (SL), (Adventure), (LOTM), etc disambigs would default to their Hasbro counterpart lines. This thing is being more pedantic than we need to. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:04, 17 September 2021 (EDT)

[[User:Saix/sandbox|Listing of pages with Japanese disambigs.]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:49, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:As someone who has been slowly going through and changing all of our JG1 toy headers to the accurate F!SRLT ones, I am all for this simplification. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:41, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::Likewise. Much more straightforward for the casual reader. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:53, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Star_Saber_(disambiguation)
:So under the proposed system, would it be the main page saying "Star Saber (G1)", nothing changed further? Or would that disambig page now additionally say "''G1'' Star Saber" and "Star Saber, the Supreme Commander from G1"? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:59, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
::Either way is fine to me. I'm not that invested in disambiguation wording. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:26, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:This is an obviously good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 17:25, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
This is definitely a change for the better.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:29, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:This is a pretty straightforward extension of the toy section streamlining initiative already underway. I echo others that this would absolutely be a win for reader accessibility. No sense hairsplitting by what is essentially country of origin. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:19, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:I'm in favour of this, yeah, assuming "if there's a preexisting G1 character of the same name, we keep the JG1 subline disambig". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:49, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

i'm glad i looked away for exactly two days and we've decided to just start recategorizing the entire damn wiki under continuity family rather than franchise of origin --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:24, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:goddamn we deliberated longer on splitting out non-G1 versions of the magnaboss guys... and this was kind of a major-ass overhaul --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:29, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
::As I said, I'm in favour of this change — rooted in "Japan treated all the various lines as part of the G1/BW franchises", not "reorganising based on continuity family" — but, yeah, it's been THREE DAYS. We absolutely can't treat "well there wasn't any disagreement" as basis to make these kinds of sweeping changes so quickly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:18, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
While I am in favor of what's been done, it seems to highlight the problem I have with us using Discord. The presentation of this proposal here seemed to me to imply that the discussion on Discord had favored it and it was pretty much good to go. I assumed that Walky and others who had previously opposed such moves had weighed in there. I really don't agree with the idea of discussions that affect the wiki being held off site. It's too "secret cabal" for me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:THANK YOU. The Discordification of the wiki is one of the worst things to ever happen to it. Every major change made here should be based on a discussion that is held ''here,'' with a transparent and permanent record of it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:55, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::I made this argument back when major decisions were being made on the Allspark wiki thread. Once the Discord was launched, and I was told major decisions would not be made on another webpage but an entirely different platform I would have to download in order to follow, I chose to quit contributing for a year. I agree that it smells of "secret cabal". Decisions about wiki content and policies should be made on the wiki, visible to everyone. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:04, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Policy on the Discord has always been that regardless of any discussion there, all major changes should be brought up and discussed here on the talk pages to have everything on record and avoid this very scenario. That's why this thread even exists. The recent moves are not "secret cabal", it's one person rushing into things before due process had a chance to run its course. (And Thylacine and Xaaron, considering I've seen you both post in the AllSpark thread, another source for off-site wiki discussion that now no longer has a record thereof, I don't think you have room to criticize the "Discordization" of the wiki. If you choose to participate in off-site discussion on one site but think another is over the line, that's exclusively on you.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:25, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I participated in the AllSpark wiki thread because it was often necessary to be involved ''there'' about decisions ''here'', while also advocating that that shouldn't be the case at the same time. I can't point to the occasional rant I had about it on Allspark anymore after their attack, but you can see here in Archive65, "Other versions of character" where I complain about people announcing major changes on Allspark instead of the Community Portal. And, like Thy said, at least I could find the Allspark discussions. I tried to learn Discord during the Allspark/Pete thing, and I found it impossible to find/follow a conversation that was only hours old at the time. So, once the process of off-site discussions was both something I disagreed with AND something I couldn't follow even if I tried, I stopped being involved in the site community. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 12:18, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::There was never a major change made based on the AS thread, there ''certainly'' wasn't the pervasive attitude of "Why are you reverting such-and-such, this was already worked out on the Discord" for the AS thread, and also at least the AS thread was in the same format as our wiki pages so you could go back and quickly follow the sequence of a threaded discussion from years ago if you'd wanted to. Stuff on Discord scrolls away if you're not looking and unless someone specifically searches for it they'd never even see the discussion at all. You are correct that the AS thread now has no record - but that is a bug, not a feature, as it was erased along with the entire Allspark board, and I don't expect anyone will try to make a new one, precisely because such vulnerabilities are now obvious. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:47, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Also, Discord doesn't require you to download anything; you can [https://discord.com/ use the browser-based version] just fine. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:36, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I think Discord is a fine place to brainstorm, drum up support for an idea, figure out what some of the pros and cons are of any given proposal. But enthusiastic support for an idea on Discord should not be taken as a reason to bypass discussion here. I'm enthusiastically in favor of this change and even I think it was implemented too quickly. Discord people (of whom I'm one), voicing your support and reasoning there is no substitute for voicing it here. But I'd like to push back on the notion that there's anything secret about it, it's a very open forum and can be fantastic for hashing out half-formed thoughts without having to take such a black-and-white stand on every issue. I think Saix just jumped the gun. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:49, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Just chiming in as one of the Discord mods to say that we have been trying our best to direct important changes here. I think the instantaneous nature of the Discord makes it easy to end up in a rush over things. However, I think the "live" nature of it has genuinely helped reduce the number of heated arguments like those that happen on talkpages/threads, because miscommunications seem to happen less often and can be cleared up faster; it's a shame that it's introduced problems of its own. The intent absolutely isn't to obfuscate! Speaking historically, the reason the wiki Discord was made was to try and merge two groups of editors—those posting in the Allspark thread, and those posting in the Allspark Discord—which, honestly, was a status quo that much more closely (if inadvertently) resembled a secret cabal. The current setup is broadly an improvement over that; it's not perfect, but hopefully people can get used to the "brainstorm there, table here" approach we've been trying to push and we'll see less of these problems over time, rather than more. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:40, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::When it comes to off-site discussions, we have always been directed by both the admins of the wiki and the moderators of the Discord server to bring our topics up either here or on the respective talk pages. The input here always gets taken as the "true" vote no matter what, whereas most discussions on Discord are as Jim and Wads have said, just throwing around ideas and brainstorming, which can be very beneficial for filtering out the "dumb" and/or half-formed ideas before presenting the well-thought out ones here. That being said, Saix's actions yesterday should not be taken as the collective work of any off-site discussions. Most of us weren't even aware that he had already started moving stuff until Walky brought up his concerns here after the fact. But yeah, it seems that the Discord's instantaneous real-time reply system has made a few of us forget that talk page and portal discussions aren't as fast and that some users aren't around every hour of every day, leaving us with moments where things get changed a little ''too'' hastily before everyone has had a chance to see it or respond to it. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 12:53, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::We should probably move all of the talk about off-site discussion to a different header, as it seems we've gone overboard with it. --[[User:DDog|DDog]] ([[User talk:DDog|talk]]) 12:59, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Okay, just to make things very clear and stop discussions getting mixed up: '''this section is about the proposal to use (G1) disambigs for late-JG1 and (BW) disambigs for BWII/BWN, ''because they are considered the same franchise in Japan'''''. BWII toys were sold under ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers'', Victory was sold under ''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers''. This has nothing to do with the "disambiguate by continuity family" proposal, which is in the section ''above'' this one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:59, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:Also moving Japanese franchise disambigs to their American counterparts (e.g. LOTM to Armada, Adventure to RID2015, etc.), except in instances where two characters with the same name exist. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:17, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::I have reinserted those remarks where they belonged. The "disambig by continuity instead of by franchise because Japan" is no longer a "proposal," ''it has already happened,'' and I think it's a mistake that rather seriously breaks the wiki which is why I asked several times for it to be undone, at least until people could vote on it in the light of day. I do not see "because Japan" as a worthwhile reason. Once we create "Overlord (G1)," there is no internally consistent reason to have a "Quickstrike (BW)." Someone born in 2003 who never heard of ''any'' Transformers pre-Animated will have no idea why we are breaking up certain series or characters, and for them to get it they'll have to learn a lot of background about Transformers ''before they can start actually learning about Transformers.'' Upthread I saw a bunch of people say the equivalent of "Obviously this is a great idea!", with none of them explaining exactly what was so great about it. Would anyone care to start? Preferably after this radical change has been reversed, so people can decide in good faith whether or not it's good instead of feeling like they have to come to terms with a diktat that was forced on them? Thanks. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Moving back because you're continuing to miss the point. Moving late JG1 to G1 and BWII/Neo to BW isn't being done by continuity family, it's because they were being sold as G1/BW toys. They're not franchises, they're sublines. By the same token, if we have Overlord (Masterforce), we should move Darksteel (Prime) to Darksteel (Beast Hunters). The treatment of JG1 and JBW as full franchises in place of sublines is rooted in misunderstanding from over a decade ago, and the passage of time has allowed us to gain a better understanding of what these lines actually were. Hence why JG1's and JBW's toyline pages were merged back into their parent toyline pages ''a year ago''. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:02, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Also going to point out that Overlord was at Overlord (G1) ''until'' 2009. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::If toy packaging and instructions support "flattening" the G1s and BWs into G1 and BW, then, okay, fine. That IS how we do things. That is the letter of our law. What sent off my alarm bells is the flattening, which felt very "we're changing fundamentally how we're organizing things," away from franchise-of-origin, and also the doing it in two days. I actually didn't see the ACTUAL "let's do this by continuity family" discussion one subheader above until later! Which I guess is alarm bells vindicated, I dunno. And that's a whole other thing. But: It's just, like, if you're going to move literally hundreds of pages... give it more than two days. Give me a heads up, even. (Though I really have a feeling Saix wanted to get this done before I found out. It's a feeling.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 22:25, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::Entirely fair. I will say that I think that, while the pages ''shouldn't'' have been moved to begin with, I don't think we should go through the huge ordeal of moving them back until we ''have'' come to an agreement on this just to prevent a repeated back-and-forth mass-page-move. (Of course, if people agree that the pages should be at (Masterforce) et al, absolutely move them back.) --10:05, 21 September 2021 (EDT)
::::JG1 and JBW series are repeatedly listed as franchises all over this wiki, including on the [[Franchise]] page and on their own pages. If the argument is "the instructions say Japanese-G1-font-then-Victory, so it's just a subline of G1 and not its own thing," then we are still very much hurled into the same problem I've been talking about. The late-G1 "Thunderclash windshield" logo is used on G2 and BW, so Blackarachnia is every bit as G1 as is Deathsaurus. Or are we basing this on ad hoc judgments of how prominent the older logo is, whether it's on the top or the bottom or bigger or smaller or what color they use? I also notice that [[Return of Convoy]] was ''not'' re-disambigged into G1, even though the packaging for [[Grandus (ROC)]] has the same "Fight! etc" livery and proportions as the other JG1 lines. If next week two people started to agitate for BW to get re-tagged as G1 because of the instruction font precedent, our only argument against that would be "No, we like BW too much for that" (but don't worry, we wouldn't be expected to reclassify Beast Machines, because that didn't use the late-G1 font. So Obsidian stays within Beasts, but Blackarachnia doesn't, it's easy to remember, surely friendly to new users....) This was not carefully reasoned through, and anything done by an automated script can be undone the same way. By rights people should have to make a tight and comprehensive argument both of why this change would improve the wiki and why it definitely won't reclassify other long-recognized franchises into mere sublines of G1 that now just get called G1.

::::(EDIT - moving the Overlord/Darksteel point to the end. It seems nearly all of the TF:Prime:Beast Hunters line were clearly designated as such ''except'' for Darksteel and some other Target dudes who were just TF:Beast Hunters. Really don't think people want to argue for dissolving a half-dozen long-recognized franchises because of that. That is literally the opposite of what "exception" means.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:04, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::For what it's worth, ''Return of Convoy'' was the only real line to branch out from the JG1 toyline, even if just a little. Everything before that was ''strictly'' F!SRLT, with sub-branding used for specific cases (e.g. ''The Headmasters'' for Headmaster characters, including the ones from the Masterforce cartoon, ''Targetmaster'' was used for Targetmaster characters, ''Seacons'' for the Seacons, etc, etc). ''Scramble City'' was the only exception to this, with it being used for Metroplex, Trypticon, Ultra Magnus and Galvatron, instead of just the combiners. ''Super-God Masterforce'', ''Victory'' and ''Zone'' were titles that were never used in the toyline at all. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:24, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::I second Thylacine's proposal to include the ROC guys in the move to G1. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:26, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, I wasn't against a move for the ROC guys to G1, just pointing out the weird branding that was JG1. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:29, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::nobody actually do that for at least 20 seconds --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:43, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::I didn't move the ROC guys because I forgot about them, not because of any particular reasoning. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:17, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::Thank you for making that clear. So we are left without the sub-brand / logo issue altogether, back at square one. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 12:57, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::Are we? If the toylines don't have any mention of Masterforce, Victory, Zone et al, that feels like strong evidence for those franchises being part of G1 in Japan, exactly like Beast Hunters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your main point of objection is "well, we've always done it like this"... but that was because Western fandom was previously ''unaware'' that JG1 was all one large toyline. I don't think the idea is to change the disambigs while changing nothing else about our coverage; we should probably update ''all'' of the way we cover these sub-series rather than treating them as their own full franchises like we currently do. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:35, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::''Popping in out of sequence to say, for future readers, that here is where someone should have doublechecked the assertions that "the toylines don't mention Masterforce, Victory, etc.," and "the toyline only says F!SRLT plus the gimmick subline like Targetmasters." Because it turns out, the Masterforce, Victory, and Zone boxes '''totally do''' say Masterforce, Victory, and Zone on them. I regret that this was not done until several days later.'' --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:06, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

::::::::::::Because the ROC thing undermines that. If the other JG1 lines have no unique logos specifically on the boxes and instructions, and that's why they were merged into one big thing, then we've now been told several times that ROC does have those but the person who made the merge only left them out of the merge purely by accident and several pro-mergers are saying ROC should also be merged now. It looks like there isn't clear agreement on what the grounds for inclusion are. I am not against changing "what we've always done" as a matter of pure principle, but treating all of those series the way we treat subline imprints pretty radically changes the meaning of that concept. There are no other sublines (i.e. Powerlinx Battles, Primus Unleashed) that have completely separate storylines, settings, and casts. We'd surely have to keep their write-ups separate anyway, just as we do with the many many Optimus Primes that Hasbro considers to be all the same guy. What is the benefit of the change, to us and our readers? And if we ''are'' including ROC with the logo that was supposedly of equal importance that maybe it shouldn't be included but nevermind, why doesn't this suck in G2 and BW? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:55, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I actually think that it's debatable whether ROC should be included, same as with Operation Combination. I will note that G2 is "Transformers: G-2" and BW is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers"; neither has the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" branding that was given to the entire rest of JG1, which firmly delineates them as separate from the original line. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:06, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Should have been clearer: my concern is about G2/BW disambigs being tipped into USG1, which would become in-bounds if the supposedly important distinct-toy-branding-of-ROC-keeping-it-out-of-JG1 was decided not to matter anymore. If we're making these judgments based on the level of labeling that makes something a distinct franchise, we need to be consistent. Can we at least agree on that guardrail? I'm still not embracing it - we all know Masterforce et al have their own very distinct logos that we would continue to display - but at least can understand it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:29, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Note that several Return of Convoy Autobot Micromasters also share the same names as their G1 Decepticon Micromaster counterparts, so many of those won't be receiving the "(G1)" tag anyway. But nonetheless, all of those toys were still sold under the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" toyline logo. The secondary "Return of Convoy" logo they had was no different that the other secondary logos had by previous FSRLTF toys, such as "Scramble City", "The Headmasters", "Targetmaster", and "Godmaster". Thy, it really seems you're only harping on this because you can't grasp the idea that one toyline had five different cartoons in Japan (and another single toyline later had four different cartoons), when the idea of one show per cartoon has only been a thing in Hasbro's markets; a concept that Japan was never beholden to. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:14, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Specifically, the only ROC characters that would be moved are Sky Garry and Grandus. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:34, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::By my read - and please tell me if I got this wrong - Fanofcoolstuff says ROC is distinctive enough that it wouldn't be merged into G1, Riptide says it's a real debate and probably shouldn't merge, Saix said it would have been merged but got left out by accident, and Sabrblade says it's not so distinct after all and "nonetheless" will at least partially merge. And that was all in one day. To be very clear, I don't care about ROC. This is probably the longest conversation about ROC in world history. But since a whole shitton of stuff just got G1-ified, whatever can prevent that suddenly got very important! My point all along has been that if having a distinct-ish logo and storyline can still see a series get disambig merged one level up, then G2 and BW can be disambigged as G1 and we don't really have anything stopping that from happening except personal favoritism. Someone could ask next week "why NOT re-disambig G2 as G1?" and just from today's conversation I really do not see how we would have an answer. What, is the G2 toyline or cartoon more distinct from G1 than Victory was? We need a clear consistent disambig system that we can explain to newcomers under which Victory is G1 now and Beast Wars Neo is BW now but G2 and BW cannot be turned into G1 now. Do we have that system now? If so, what is it based on? If you think it's at all self-evident, it isn't. Maybe I ''can't'' grasp it - but if that's the case, I am not so special that I would expect to be the only one. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:16, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::This is all a fair point, and I am sincerely glad for the dissenting opinion! I guess the question is "at what point does the Generation 1 "franchise" stop being a franchise"? In Japan, at least, I would argue that the answer to that question is "when they stopped using Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers"; that seems like the clearest delineation, given that that puts it at the same place we consider to be the dividing line in the US (between the Micromasters and G2). If we consider FSRLTF to be the Japanese name for the G1 franchise, just like "Micron Legend" is to Armada and "Adventure" is to RID15, then there's a clear divider that means G2 and BW can't be considered part of it. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:39, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::: I freely admit that I wasn't entirely convinced at first, but after considering the issue for a few days I've ultimately decided that this consolidation is the right move. When the wiki was still taking shape in the late 2000s, individual franchise components were still very insular--chopped up, sequestered away, and written under the assumption that characters and concepts would likely never be revisited in any meaningful way, or backported into American ''Transformers'' culture. Look at [[Deathsaurus (G1)|Deathsaurus]]'s article for a good example of this: not just ''Victory'', but also ''Zone'', Dreamwave, ''Timelines'', ''Wings Universe'', two IDW universes, and even a random cameo in the original Marvel timeline thanks to TF '84. It seems weird to disambiguate by his franchise of origin when almost 64% of the headers in his page have nothing to do with ''Victory'', or even Japanese G1 at all! We don't, for instance, disambiguate [[Windblade (G1)]] by "Windblade (IDW)", even though here's arguably ''more'' instance to do so, particularly when it comes to the hordes of continuity-transplanted characters who keep showing up in stuff like IDW2 and the crossover comics.
::::::::::::::::::: We all know that Hasbro and its licensees don't view ''Transformers'' canon and continuity the same way we do, and this has led to an increasing amount of bleed between different stories--between stuff like IDW's ongoing comic stories freely pulling from whatever catches their fancy, and FunPub stuff like Beast Wars Uprising and AVP, I think that this debate ''should'' probably go beyond the intricacies of packaging minutiae... but, well, now I feel like I'm conflating these two separate proposals together, so for the time being I think that reorganizing the JG1 characters like this is a good thing.[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:49, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::: It's also worth noting that the [[List of Japanese ID numbers#Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers|ID numbers]] for the toys keep counting up all the way through Return of Convoy, furthering the argument that these are all part of one larger toyline. [[List of Japanese ID numbers#Beast Wars|Same with Beast Wars]]. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Thy, you keep confusing "G1" the toyline (known in Japan as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers") with "G1" the continuity family. G2 and BW are part of the latter, yes, but both are ''not'' part of the former. And "Return of Convoy" is basically a [[subline imprint]], like what "The Unicron Battles" was for Armada. It's the same toyline with just an extra logo. And as Cyberlink says above, it continues the same ID numbering system as the rest of the FSRLTF line. G2 and BW were both separate toylines from G1 in both Japan and in Hasbro's markets. For Japan, neither were "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: G-2" or "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars", they were just "Transformers: G-2" and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" (losing both the "Fight!" and "Robot" parts of the FSRLTF title, even). And each even used a separate ID numbering system from that of FSRLTF. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:45, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
::I just want to make it clear AGAIN that I was never against the move of (ROC) to (G1). I was just simply pointing out how the packaging is ''slightly'' different. I apologize if I made that unclear. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:28, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
I want to apologize for igniting this whole thing. My Sunday boredom and rush to get things done got the best of me, and I'm sorry. If it's decided to revert my moves, I'm fully willing to undo all of my edits, when I can get the time. (Sorry for the late reply, I'm very busy with irl stuff for this week and the next.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:22, 21 September 2021 (EDT)
::I realize most of the conversation was around the JG1 disambig, but I really don't like the suggestion to collapse the other Japanese line disambigs into the US lines. Using Adventure as an example, Cosmos was released in Adventure — he's not an RiD character, having no presence in the RiD version of the line. I know we tend to lean on the US version of things as the source of truth, but this to me feels like it implies something that isn't true. [[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 20:41, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Maybe that's the case, but to most users (MD), (SL) and such are going to not mean anything. ''Broadly'' speaking, the "[[Heavy Metal (Energon)]]" is accurate in that the character came from the Japanese counterpart to the Energon line; when you open the page itself it'll explain the specifics of the character's origin more clearly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:39, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
:It's been discovered that, despite the ID numbers restarting, none of the Operation Combination toys actually have an "Operation Combination" logo, just the standard "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo used by every phase of the line before it. And that the Return of Convoy toys all still have the same "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo while the secondary "Return of Convoy" logo does not have its own separate "Transformers" part, meaning that that logo is not "Transformers: Return of Convoy" but simply "Return of Convoy". Though, none of the ROC Micromasters can be moved to G1 since that tag is already used by their Hasbro Decepticon counterparts, so it would just be Grandus and Sky Garry. Out of all the Operation Combination toys, only six of them currently use the "(OC)" tag: Sandstorm, Falcon, Circuit, Discharge, Glide, and Windy. And of those six, only the latter three would be moved to "(G1)" since the former three share names with other G1 characters. And I really can't see anyone raising a fuss over Discharge, Glide, and Windy using the "(G1)" tag. Also, Scrash uses "(OC)" since there is an Animated Scrash, but again, no sane person would complain about him becoming "Scrash (G1)". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:14, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::On that note, as part of this, I think we should consider merging the ROC Micromasters back into their Hasbro counterparts' pages, as they have no independent fiction and are 100% identical to the Hasbro releases save for the faction symbol on their boxes. Nothing says we can't chalk this up to "it's the same guy but they're an Autobot in JG1". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:39, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Feels quite sensible. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:17, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Also we should move all the JG1 series to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Whatever", since they all include it as part of the title and we're currently ''very'' inconsistent in its usage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:21, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::So just to be absolutely clear about what we've determined here, One: The graphic we had listed as the Return of Convoy logo is in truth a modifier on the classic F!SRLT logo in the style of the rest of JG1; Two: ''the original, solo Fight! Super Lifeform Transformer logo continues to appear on toy packaging through Return of Convoy and Operation Combination.'' Operation Combination is the last line where this occurs and can be considered the definitive end of the original F!SRLT branding. Hope this helps clear things up. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:57, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::It would make since to consider everything before G2; G1. -[[User:DDog|DDog]] ([[User talk:DDog|talk]]) 14:37, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I have made some new discoveries on the matter. The FSRLTF, 2010, and Victory cartoons all used the FSRL text in their title logos, while The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Zone do not. Meanwhile, in the next-episode previews for The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory, all three omit the FSRL text from their series names in the narration, only calling themselves "Transformers: The Headmasters", "Transformers: Chojin Masterforce", and "Transformers: Victory". Likewise, Zone does not have any FSRL text in either its title logo or its theme song lyrics (just "Transformers: Zone"), but its DVD bonus features do have FSRL text added to the Zone logo. Meanwhile, the Japanese dub of BW refers to itself as "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" in both its title logo and theme song lyrics, but just "Beast Wars" in its next-episode previews. BWII's logo reads "Beast Wars II: Super Lifeform Transformers", but its next-episode previews consistently call it "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars II". Likewise, Neo is called "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo" in both its title logo and next-episode previews. Metals is "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Metals" in its title logo, but just "Beast Wars Metals" in the next-episode previews. The first Metals movie is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers - Metals" in its logo, but the characters shout "Beast Wars: Metals". Likewise, the second Metals movie is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers - Metals - Convoy Daihenshin!" in its logo, but the characters shout "Beast Wars: Metals - Convoy Daihenshin!" And finally, Returns is "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Returns" in its logo while the characters just say "Beast Wars Returns". So, while logos vary, the only shows to actually speak either the FSRL or SRL text are just BWII and Neo (and technically BW but only in its theme song). Meaning that while the franchises are "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" (nicknamed "Transformers" for short) and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" (nicknamed "Beast Wars" for short), not all of these shows are necessarily beholden to using the full titles of each franchise along with each respective subheading. So we needn't necessarily have to move Transformers: The Headmasters et al to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: The Headmasters" et al. If anything, I'd suggest just leaving out the FSRL text from every JG1 series after 2010, since none of them used it to refer to themselves verbally. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:09, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
Did no one look at the back of these JG1/JBW boxes? Because the murals on the back of Masterforce, Victory, and Zone boxes plainly do have the unique Masterforce, Victory, and Zone franchise logos. The stuff repeatedly said to not be on toy product actually is very much there. So, uhhh....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:16, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6Qu8NMnPbX0/U9FNiQT6Z3I/AAAAAAAADxs/c1n1Srl37po/s1600/20140706_125112.jpg
https://tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/1659/
:The back of Overlord's box says Masterforce in Japanese AND English! --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:31, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::That...really doesn't change the fact that the original F!SRLFT logo is still very much front and center on the box. Nor the continued ID numbers between all the lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:15, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
:::It changes the assertion made about 6 times by multiple merge advocates - and in the "Summary and Vote" section below until it was just struck out a second ago - that there wasn't any unique branding on the toy product and we've only been treating the toylines as separate because of old assumptions and inertia. I will grant that the ID numbers are a piece of evidence in favor of a merge, but it now looks like that's the only one left. Are we going to make a change this big over a checklist? When this merge was already made, was it made based on believing something that isn't true? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Not really. Honestly, it doesn't change much; seems like it's no different a case than 2010, which had the normal logo on the front and the 2010 logo on the back. And we acknowledge that as a subline of G1 while still giving it a franchise page; should the vote pass, the other series would be treated exactly the same. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:35, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

:::: I'm comfortable with my vote. I don't think a tiny logo on the back smaller than the team logo is that big a deal. If anything it reinforces the idea of how messy and subjective what constitutes a franchise is. Maybe others might feel differently and change their vote. We'll see.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 16:38, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

:::: I absolutely believe that a logo on the ''back'' of the toy packaging does not outrank the main logo on the front. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:55, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Thinking more about this, the notion of the "media logos" (as I'll call them) being on the back of the boxes doesn't strike me as being all that different from when the original 2010-2011 Transformers: Generations line had secondary "Transformers: War for Cybertron" media logos on its packaging for the figures based on the designs from that video game. In those cases, the media logo was there to say "Hey, the specific Generations figures bearing this second logo represent characters that are also featured in the video game that this other logo is advertising." But it did ''not'' mean that the toys featuring that logo were suddenly part of a toyline named "Transformers: War For Cybertron" or even "Transformers: Generations - War For Cybertron". It just meant that certain toys sold in the "Transformers: Generations" toyline represented characters featured in a contemporary video game called "Transformers: War For Cybertron". Likewise, the media logos on the back of the FSRLTF toys indicated which FSRLTF toys were affiliated with which cartoon and manga of each media logo belonged to. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:47, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::::It's the same kind of thing we've most recently seen in the Cyberverse toyline. There the main franchise named remained "Cyberverse", with added imprints like "Bumblebee: Cyberverse Adventures" or "Dinobot Adventures". The additional logos alongside F!SRLT just denote the subline of that year, like the aforementioned Cyberverse or the three lines within the War for Cybertron Trilogy franchise. --[[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 01:30, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::More findings. I just did a binge-watching of almost every Japanese G1 toy commercial that we have covered in our [[Commercial/Japan]] article, and have observed that not every year's commercials actually used the secondary logos for each series. The 1985 and 1986 commercials all use just the standard FSRLTF logo, with the 1986 commercials also using the Scramble City logo for the specific toys that logo pertains to. By 1987, the FSRLTF logo just becomes a standard "Transformers" logo without the FSRL text, with only one 1987 commercial actually using The Headmasters logo (that being the specific Headmasters toy commercial, but not the Fort Max and Scorponok commercial), and none of the 1988 ones using the Masterforce logo. 1989 and 1990, however, DO use the Victory and Zone logos, respectively, while in 1991, only the Sky Garry and Grandus commercials use the Return of Convoy logo while the Star Convoy (ironically) and Sixliner ones do not. The 1992 Sixtrain commercial, meanwhile, goes back to only using the "Transformers" logo. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:20, 26 September 2021 (EDT)

Is there a reason why Operation Combination is not included in our own very long FSLRT toyline page, when our OC toyline page says it's part of FSLRT?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fight!_Super_Robot_Lifeform_Transformers_(toyline)
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fight!_Super_Robot_Lifeform_Transformers:_Operation_Combination_(toyline)
For the record, here are OC boxes front and back: http://heroicdecepticon.blogspot.com/2012/02/transformers-operation-combination-tf.html?m=1
--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:23, 2 October 2021 (EDT)
:It's funny you mention this as a discussion was brought up earlier lol. I think it is safe to fold into the JG1 page. It pretty much follows the other sublines, with only the ID numbers setting it apart from the rest. We have reason to believe that it was probably forgotten about during the merge of the other pages a few years ago. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 08:51, 2 October 2021 (EDT)
::It's leftover from before the big FSRLTF page was compiled together. It was initially left out because its renumbered ID system confused us into thinking it was a separate thing. But the recent discovery that its toy packaging never used any other logo has reopened talk of reincorporating it. Thy, if there are still things related to these talks that are still unchanged right now, it doesn't mean we're deliberately leaving them alone. It means that nothing has been done about them '''''yet''''' as these talks and votes are still ongoing. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 10:37, 2 October 2021 (EDT)

===Summary of discussion and vote===
So I'm going to summarise all the information as clearly as I can for everyone to vote on. For clarity I will be referring to the Japanese G1 franchise as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" to distinguish it from "Generation 1" as a more general concept.

'''The "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" toyline is unambiguously a single, cohesive toyline.''' Rather than being split into separate lines for each cartoon, it uses specific brandings for different subgroups like Headmasters and Godmasters, akin to the Micro Transformers logo on G1 Micromaster toys. <s>The one exception to this is Return of Convoy, which has its own co-branded logo, but the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo is still on the packaging regardless.</s> CLARIFICATION: '''The series logos ''are'' on the packaging, but only on the back, with the exception of Return of Convoy.''' The toy numbering remains consistent up through Return of Convoy before being reset for Operation Combination, but even then the toy packaging didn't actually carry any Operation Combination logos.

Regarding tie-in media, '''the cartoons are packaged individually with their own titles''', though it's worth noting that this also applies to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010" (G1 season 3). The manga were also given their individual series' branding (apart from 2010 and Return of Convoy), but were collected as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: The Comics". While the in-series Headmasters and Masterforce title cards don't use "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform", supplementary material for the cartoons does.

If the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" title is treated as the distinguishing factor, '''there is no risk of G2 or Beast Wars also being subsumed.''' Generation 2 was sold in Japan as "Transformers: G-2", while Beast Wars was "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers".

Lastly, '''all of this also applies to "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers"'''. Just replace "Victory" and "Masterforce" with "BWII" and "Neo", "2010" with "Metals", and "G-2" with "Car Robots".

With all this taken into account, there seem to be two possible ways to take this:

* '''Keep viewing each of these brandings as their own full-fledged franchise.''' While the toyline does not carry any franchise branding, it can be covered as a single toyline covering multiple franchises; the fact that each year's branding was used across multiple pieces of fiction means it should be treated as the mark of a full franchise.
* '''Treat "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" as each being a single franchise, with the individual yearly brandings as subsets of these lines.''' This seems to be how they are considered in Japan: individual components of a single overarching line. The shared branding across fiction is no different to how the "Beast Hunters" branding is shared by [[Transformers: Prime (cartoon)#Season 3: Beast Hunters|''Prime'' Season 3]] and [[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters (comic)|the IDW comic]].

Please cast your votes below. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:32, 24 September 2021 (EDT)

* I vote for '''option two'''. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 21:35, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* I vote for '''Option two''' as well. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 21:37, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''2'''. [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:38, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* Definitely leaning towards '''Option 2'''. F!SRLF appears on all the toy packaging, and the ID numbers continue on from one another. It's clear Takara thought of them as one franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 21:44, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' seems the most sensible given the information presented. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 21:46, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:01, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2'''. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 22:30, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 23:10, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2'''. Each is one franchise with mutliple cartoons (I've posted some new findings above) --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:09, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:39, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* I'm also going with '''option 2'''. The fact that the series logos are on the backs of the toy packaging is arguably more evidence that we should treat them as we do other subline imprints, in my view. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:18, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 16:41, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''2''', if we're going by the wiki's pre-established rules of (generally) adhering to logos on packaging and instructions. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:45, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1''', though that's more of a gut feeling.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 18:18, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1'''. "There are no logos" became "Logos on the back don't count" a bit too quickly for my comfort. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:17, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1'''. I'm uncomfortable with the combination of being extremely literal in one regard — "All JG1 is a single line known as Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" — while using fuzzy terminology in another — "Generation 1 refers to everything pre-G2 in all territories". I feel like this decision was made hastily and the proposal is not balancing accuracy and clarity in a thoughtful enough way for me at this stage. -- [[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 15:56, 28 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''', but not for the stated reasons. Standards for naming pages should be based on accessibility to new visitors, not satisfying the most technically accurate organizational scheme devised by older visitors. Some new fan who enjoys modern stories about Deathsaurus, Overlord, or Star Saber isn't going to understand what (Victory) or (Masterforce) is compared to (G1). But they're also not going to understand "''It's at (G1) instead of (Victory) because we analyzed 30y old box art captions in a foreign language to satisfy ourselves about the change.''" We don't need to twist ourselves into knots to justify this move on technicalities while also finding reasons not to do it for (BW) while still claiming to be internally consistent...*inhale*...if we just say, "''We're doing this to be more accessible.''" Boom, done. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:49, 29 September 2021 (EDT)
*'''Option 2'''--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 04:28, 3 October 2021 (EDT)
*'''Option Two'''. Reducing the number of disambig parentheses is useful here. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:29, 4 October 2021 (EDT)

Okay, the vote's been running for two weeks now, so we're probably gonna wind it down soon. If anyone's got any last minute votes or thoughts, now's the time to add them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:47, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

All right, with a final count of 16 to 3, the vote is overwhelmingly in favor of '''Option 2''', folding the Japanese G1 and Beast Wars sublines back into their parent franchises. Thanks everyone for voting and lending your opinions to the discussion. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:32, 18 October 2021 (EDT)

== Disambigs for TM2 characters ==

While we're still on the topic of page moves and titles and what not, I figured I should bring up these two cases that have bugged me for a while now.

I personally feel that we should move "[[Dinobot II]]" and "[[Prowl II]]" to "Dinobot (TM2)" and "Prowl (TM2)", respectively. These two were not given the Roman numeral suffix things (for lack of a better term) until the IDW Beast Wars Sourcebooks which were written what, 10 or so years after the fact?

Both the toy packaging for the pair and their bios never gave them that title and I'm pretty sure Dinobot was never called "Dinobot II" in the BW cartoon (granted, I haven't watched it in about 2 years, so I could be wrong). It just feels incredibly weird that we're naming these two after the Sourcebook names and not their original names.

[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] had also brought up on Discord that the fiction surrounding Prowl II and Prowl (TM2) should be split, but I personally think that we should keep them together as it's the same character, just with a different origin, which is no different to say any G1 character between Marvel, IDW and the cartoon, etc. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 22:41, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:I agree with this change because the use of Dinobot II and Prowl II in the titles gives the wrong idea that these names have been used much more often than they actually have. Also there's always the possibility that someone will use those names in an official capacity just because they saw them on this wiki, and I think that's something we should try to avoid. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:02, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::The Sourcebook didn't even use the "II" in anything outside of the page titles and the Credits Index. Not in any of the biographical information for any of the "II" characters. In fact, the Credits Index goes the extra mile of placing each "II" inside a set of parentheses like "(II)", as if to say "These are each the second character listed with a shared name, but the 'II' isn't actually part of their names." --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:48, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:Prowl-II-the-owl-and-Binaltec-car was such a chore to put together, the only thing worse would be finding a way to take it apart - and both halves would need to refer to one another so much they would take up more space and cause more confusion than the single article currently is. Let's leave it alone. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::Yeah, as stated above I'm personally not for a split. I think MrRald also has plans on bringing it up on the talk page itself, so I'll leave that discussion more up to him to bring up. But what's your thoughts on the moves to "(TM2)"? -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 11:35, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Are either "Dinobot II" or "Prowl II" canonically-published names, or are they convenient shorthand this wiki made up? [[Beast Wars Universe]] says "TM2 Dinobot", the [[BotCon 2002]] postcard set says "Dinobot (Transmetal 2)". I don't own BW Sourcebook. In general I side with names that are official (even if obscure) over those we made up. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::They were used officially, but only in the Sourcebooks for the most part. In Prowl's case, the Sourcebook use was kinda pseudo-retconned into being the JG1 version of the character, with AVP building onto the story and solidifying him as part of the Binaltech stuff. But other than that, both prowl and Dinobot have appeared in more pieces of fiction without the "II" in the name. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 13:30, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Turns out "Dinobot II" was used in Earth Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Before Dinobot II with the Roman Numeral in the Sourcebook, Dinobot 2 was used in the Dreamwave Summer Special title page for "Ain't no Rat." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 13:10, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
After a lot of thinking and research, I think Prowl II should be moved to Prowl (Transmetal 2) to fit with the system used for Prowl (Magnaboss) and Silverbolt (Fuzor). The name Prowl II has been proved to be non diegetic and the Binaltech body is called Prowl 2 (possibly a callback to the Spychanger who used to be on the same article as the owl). As for the contents of the actual article I changed my mind on any need for splitting. I'd just make the chip chase Prowl fiction more self contained and I have a sandbox as proof of concept. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:55, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:I agree with moving them to disambigs. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:14, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::I'm all in for more accessible disambigs over anal "this name with a hyphen was only used once and thus requires no disambig" nonsense.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 18:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::"(TM2)" for both of these gets my vote. It's simple and eliminates the space in the middle of the tag. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:14, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::: TM2 for Prowl is fine, but Dinobot II is an official name used more than once and it's... also what people call him, so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 18:42, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::Isn't that only in Earth Wars, though? And it really wouldn't surprise me if Furman mainly did that because of our calling him "Dinobot II" in the first place. If that's the case, then shouldn't his original name in his primary media appearance(s) supersede later-given renames/nicknames in less prominent media? To use a bigger example, Hasbro has officially switched G1 Slag's name to Slug, but we don't use that name as the article's name because of the original media history wherein his name was Slag. TM2 Dinobot was always just "Dinobot" until Earth Wars. Dreamwave's description and the Sourcebook's page header were never diegetic. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:56, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

Alright, here are the fictional appearances of both characters that I know of and what name they are referred to by:
{|width=100%
|valign=top|
*'''Dinobot:'''
**Toyline/toy packaging/bio = "Dinobot"
**BW cartoon = "Dinobot"
**3H comics = "Dinobot"
**Dreamwave = "Dinobot 2"
**IDW BW 2006 = "Dinobot II"
**Battle Tactics = "Dinobot Transmetal II"
**Earth Wars = "Dinobot II"
:'''Total:''' "Dinobot" = '''2''', "Dinobot II" = '''2''', "Dinobot Transmetal 2" = '''1''', "Dinobot 2" = '''1'''
|valign=top|
*'''Prowl:'''
**Toyline/toy packaging/bio = "Prowl"
**JG1 = "Prowl 2" (Binaltech), "Prowl II" (Ask Vector Prime)
**IDW BW 2006 = "Prowl II" (BW Sourcebook only), "Prowl" (comic itself)
**TransTech = "Prowl"
**IDW1 = unnamed cameo
:'''Total:''' "Prowl" = '''3''', "Prowl II" = '''2''', "Prowl 2" = '''1'''
|}

I also want to make note that, based on some digging that Nevermore and MrRald did earlier today, it seems the original Japanese transcript for the Binaltech fiction uses "プロール2" (aka "Prowl 2") rather than "Prowl II", which leads to a bit of inconsistency when the AVP entry and the Binaltech story are supposed to be set in the same universe. However, I'm under the impression that the name was changed to "Prowl II" to not confuse him with the RID01 [[Prowl 2]] that was established as a Binaltech duplicate in the [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 10, 2015|same AVP entry]]. ''But'' then again, Ichikawa was also building off of the BW Sourcebook bio for the character in the AVP entry which used "Prowl II", so that could have also been a mistake. ''Also'' keep in mind that the BW Sourcebook bio for Prowl was ''very'' loosely based on the Binaltech fiction (or at least it seems like it). I don't know about you, but my head hurts now. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 04:17, 10 October 2021 (EDT)
:A few things to note about these findings. First, Dreamwave's use of "Dinobot 2" and the Sourcebook's use of "Dinobot II" were never diegetic. The Sourcebook just called him "Dinobot" in the biographical text of his profile, and the Credits Index labeled him as "Dinobot (II)" to denote that the "II" isn't actually part of his name. Earth Wars is the only thing to use it as such, and it came years and years after the fact.
:Second, the "Prowl 2" name given in the System Description for the Binaltech toy does not refer to the name of the character but to the physical body unit built by Honda that Prowl's soul was to inhabit. It was designated "Prowl 2" because it was created to be a duplicate body for Prowl to use with the GT System in addition to his normal body (until the accident that destroyed his original body changed those plans and forced the duplicate body to be the primary, but I digress). When referring to the character personally, the toy's profile, System Description, and Story of Binaltech chapter all just refer to him as "Prowl". Looking at the AVP answer, its use of "Prowl II" to refer to the character reads as if the writer (be it Jim, Ichikawa, or both) was under the misinformed impression at the tie that the owl Maximal was literally named "Prowl II" diegetically in IDW's 2006 BW comics, which he wasn't. He too was just "Prowl".
:Like Dinobot, the use of "Prowl II" by the Sourcebook was only in the page header for encyclopedic disambiguation, and was likewise labeled as "Prowl (II)" in the Credits Index to say that the "II" was never part of that Prowl's actual given name. Our Wiki article at the time merely gave the misinformed impression that it was, likely leading to the specific wording of the AVP answer. In other words, these numbered names really don't have much leg to stand on. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:50, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

== So, about 1995 Generation 2... ==
At the risk of opening yer another can of worms, what about the 1995 figures? In the United States and Canada, the packaging had dropped the "Generation 2" branding by that point, though the European releases were still "Generation 2".--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 04:51, 27 September 2021 (EDT)
:Feels like if Europe was still branding them as G2, and everyone else was just not branding them at all, they'd still be G2. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 12:45, 28 September 2021 (EDT)
::The real problem is the 1993 European releases with G2 faction symbols but not the G2 logo. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:23, 28 September 2021 (EDT)

== Toys used as Props ==

There's been discussion on the Discord about noting the use of Transformers toys as props in various movies. I think it's absolutely noteworthy to add when they are physical props, along the line of Starscream in ''Top Gun'' or Shockwave in ''Aliens''; they're using the physical toys in a real world sense as part of film production, similar to our note on Grimlock's toy page about his toy being in the British Museum. We've already got it on certain pages like ''Spaceballs'' because they are mentioned in fiction, but it think if we're going to do it, it should be an all or nothing thing. Something along the lines of this: ""Optimus Prime's toy was used in the movies Chuck Goes to McDonalds, Death God 2: Payback's a Bitch, and Larry the Donkey, and the television shows CSI: Berlin and Darla's Mystery Shop."

'''PUTTING THIS HERE BECAUSE I KNOW IT"S GONNA COME UP: I am specifically talking only through a real-world perspective of usage of props. Any discussion of in-fiction use is entirely irrelevant to me. If it's animated, I don't want it added.''' [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:32, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
: This feels like something that would be easily abused by users looking for an excuse to add even the slightest mention of something peripherally related to Transformers to the wiki, and would lead down a slippery slope to our notes and trivia sections becoming absolutely bloated like the average Wikia. Strong oppose. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:36, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:: The thing is we already have people bloating notes sections as is. I think worrying about any potential negative outcome actively hurts what we're capable of. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:42, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:::We have been deliberately avoiding "Razorbeast was in ''Fresh Prince'' and Beast Megatron was in ''Knock-Off'' and RID Megatron was in ''Sex and the City''" since day-1 of this wiki. I think it's mildly interesting to include cases where the TF toys are "hidden" within a fictional world - such as Shockwave in ''Aliens'', or Movie Bonecrusher on that CNN demonstration of how minesweepers work, precisely because they ''aren't supposed to be Transformers,'' they are supposed to be something else. But a notation of "such-and-such show had a character playing with a Transformer because Transformers are cool," ugh, no, heavy no. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:51, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
::::I'm on Thy's side here. Fun little trivial facts about a ''Transformers''/''Transformers''-related producted being repurposed as some weird thing in the background of a movie is always an interesting thing to note. However, if it is something like a kid holding a toy in the background of one episode of a show or in a movie, that's when our notes section would get overly bloated with pointless facts. On the ''Spaceballs'' note though, the colouring book and lunchbox fit as a repurposing of a product in a movie since they clearly just plastered on a sticker over an official ''Transformers'' logo to pass it off as something else in the context of their film. That doesn't mean I'm for noting the use of a G1 Starscream in ''Topgun'' because of the theory that "in the movie's context it's just a jet toy" when there is no real proof of this. Unless it is blatantly obvious that it is being used as something that was not its intended purpose, then I feel it shouldn't be documented on this wiki.

::::I did have another idea for those who might feel strongly about listing toy appearances in other media outside of ''Transformers'': What if we made a page similar to "[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]]" that just compiles together a bunch of appearances from over the years where a random ''Transformers'' product/toy is being used as a prop for a kid to play with? We could list all of the most popular ones together like G1 Prime under a "Generation 1 Optimus Prime" header and then any odd cases like RID01 Megatron in ''Sex and the City'' where only a single use of a figure is shown can just be placed under a simple "Other" header. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:19, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::I like the idea of a single page listing all toy appearances in off-brand media, could be something fun and informative to look through, and I think it would be preferable than listing them in the notes section of each character's page. Doing the latter could potentially clog the notes with trivia that is not actually relevant to the characters themselves. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 23:56, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::I feel that as an encyclopedia, that whenever the media you are covering is depicted in another media, it is worth noting because it's making a cultural impact (whether it's big or small). I feel that nothing can be lost from listing these things. I can think of half a dozen times a Transformers toy has appeared in a TV series that is totally worth mentioning. I can see how on ''The Transformers: The Movie'' page that the Notes section is purely for information pertaining to the background of the movie itself and not to be abused, but that film has such a significance in one of the ''Goldbergs'' episodes, that it seems unjust to not refer to it somewhere on the wiki. I find stuff like this truly fascinating. So, it's either make a new section for stuff like that and include the info underneath, or make a new section that can link to a new page entirely. Thanks for reading. // [[User:Anythingspossibleforapossible|Anythingspossibleforapossible]] ([[User talk:Anythingspossibleforapossible|talk]]) 18:03, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

== Merge ROC Micromasters with Hasbro Micromasters ==

As part of our reintegration of JG1 into G1, I'd like to merge [[Bombshock (ROC)|Bombshock]], [[Dropshot (ROC)|Dropshot]], [[Growl (ROC)|Growl]], [[Tracer (ROC)|Tracer]], [[Grit (ROC)|Grit]], [[Hammer (ROC)|Hammer]], [[Knockout (ROC)|Knockout]], [[Sledge (ROC)|Sledge]], [[Direct-Hit (ROC)|Direct-Hit]], [[Excavator (ROC)|Excavator]], [[Power Punch (ROC)|Power Punch]], [[Stonecruncher (ROC)|Stonecruncher]], [[Fireshot (ROC)|Fireshot]], [[Half-Track (ROC)|Half-Track]], [[Meltdown (ROC)|Meltdown]], and [[Vanquish (ROC)|Vanquish]] with their respective Hasbro counterparts. I think there's plenty of sufficient grounds:
* Their names and toys are identical in both markets, with the only difference being the faction symbol on the box.
* They have no fiction, aside from Growl making a brief appearance in Legends, but considering the Hasbro version has no Japanese fiction, that doesn't pose an issue.
* The "W teams" the latter twelve are part of in ROC aren't actually teams at all. According to Sabrblade's research into the original Takara toy bios, "each W Team is actually two teams, with each Micromaster pair being a team on their own. The Shuttle Rocket W Team is actually the Shuttle Team and Rocket Team. The Fire Tanker W Team is the Fire Team and Tanker Team. And so on and so forth."
Given all this, I don't think it's unreasonable to merge them together and just leave notes saying "this character was marketed as an Autobot in Japan". Any objections? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:25, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:I thought this would apply to the Zone Micromasters too, but I see most of them at least changed names or colors (with [[Whisper (Zone)]] and [[Nightflight (Zone)]] being the exceptions), on top of having more fiction. I'm not opposed to the ROC guys being merged, since those are really sparse pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:38, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::I'm glad you brought this back up, as I feel it's important that we have some sort of consistent system to denote which Hasbro and Takara Micromasters we consider the same characters as each other, and which we consider different. Setting the [[Rescue Patrol (G1)|Rescue Patrol]] and [[Rescue Patrol Team]] aside (since the existence of Holi and Fire's separate HasLab toys from the Siege toys of Stakeout and Red Hot indicates that the current Hasbro team is willing to consider them separate characters from each other, despite their original toy decos and factions being identical), the following setup is what's true for each and every Micromaster, minus the six-combiners:
::*'''Category 1: Same name, same deco, same faction''' - [[Race Car Patrol|Roadhandler]], Hot House, Ironworks, [[Air Patrol|Blaze Master (kinda), Eagle Eye, Sky High, Tread Bolt]], [[Construction Patrol|Crumble, Groundpounder, Neutro, Takedown]], [[Race Track Patrol|Barricade, Ground Hog, Roller Force]], [[Monster Trucks Patrol|Big Hauler, Heavy Tread, Hydraulic, Slow Poke]], [[Astro Squad|Phaser, Blast Master, Moonrock, Missile Master, Barrage, Heave]], [[Metro Squad|Wheel Blaze (kinda), Roadburner, Oiler, Slide, Power Run, Strikedown]]
::*'''Category 2: Same name, same deco, different faction''' - [[Air Strike Patrol|Nightflight, Whisper]], [[Military Patrol|Bombshock, Dropshot, Growl, Tracer]], [[Battle Squad|Meltdown, Half-Track, Direct-Hit, Power Punch, Fireshot, Vanquish]], [[Constructor Squad|Stonecruncher, Excavator, Sledge, Hammer, Grit, Knockout]]
::*'''Category 3: Same name, different deco, same faction''' - [[Battle Patrol|Sidetrack, Sunrunner]]
::*'''Category 4: Same name, different deco, different faction''' - [[Sports Car Patrol|Road Hugger]]
::*'''Category 5: Different name, same deco, same faction''' - [[Off Road Patrol|Highjump/Nutshell, Mudslinger/Footdemo, Powertrain/Freed, Tote/Flak]], [[Race Car Patrol|Freewheeler/Wheelrun, Swindler/Glorean, Tailspin/Spinchange]], Erector/Cragun, Overload/Roadjet, Countdown/Moonradar, [[Race Track Patrol|Motorhead/Motorstar]], [[Hot Rod Patrol|Big Daddy/Grease, Greaser/Legs, Hubs/Lucas, Trip-Up/Vanishing]]
::*'''Category 6: Different name, same deco, different faction''' - [[Air Strike Patrol|Storm Cloud/Star Cloud, Tailwind/Windrim]], Flattop/Skywave, Roughstuff/Missile Bull, Airwave/Overair, Greasepit/Glasspit
::*'''Category 7: Different name, different deco, same faction''' - [[Battle Patrol|Big Shot/Gunlift, Flak/Powerbomb]]
::*'''Category 8: Different name, different deco, different faction''' - [[Sports Car Patrol|Blackjack/Black Heat, Detour/Deadhour, Hyperdrive/Gingham]]
::*'''Category 9: Hasbro-only''' - Groundshaker, Skyhopper, Skystalker, Terror-Tread, Cement-Head, Retro, Surge, Pipeline, Gusher, Blackout, Spaceshot, Full-Barrel, Overflow
::*'''Category 10: Takara-only''' - Gunrunner, Deadwheeler, Rabbicrater, Metrobomb, Sonic, Speeder, Drillbuster, Shotbomber, Spinner, Hot Rodimus
::The way we have it now is that those in Categories 1 and 5 (minus Countdown/Moonradar) are the same characters between the Hasbro and Takara releases, while those in all other categories are separate characters. Of note is that Categories 3 and 7 are Hasbro's Battle Patrol and Takara's Battle Patrol Team, while Categories 4 and 8 are Hasbro's Sports Car Patrol and Takara's Super Car Patrol Team. Were I to have included Hasbro's Rescue Patrol and Takara's Rescue Patrol Team, they would have gone into Category 5, but both we and Hasbro consider them separate characters from each other like those in Category 6 (which includes Airwave/Overair, who even got separate Earthrise toys from Hasbro), minus the difference in faction. And, as mentioned, we have Countdown and Moonradar separate despite their toys falling into Category 5. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:43, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::BWU had members of the Battle Patrol Team (Powerbomb, Gunlift) and the Battle Patrol (Flak, Big Shot) as different characters, so they'd have to remain separate either way. Keeping this separation for the other two (Sidetrack, Sunrunner) keeps things consistent. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:54, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::I would guess that BWU did that ''because'' we had separate articles on them, and I feel like there's a push for not further propagating things that got that way because of us (e.g. [[Violengiguar]]). --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 17:47, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::::I likely would have done it anyway. Please don't make any decisions based on what Beast Wars Uprising did. It's an intentional outlier.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:28, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::Added in links to group together each patrol/squad's members. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 17:07, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::I'd be inclined to consider categories 2 and 3 the same characters, for sure, and at that point I feel like I'd have a hard time arguing that category 4 shouldn't also be the same character. So I guess in a nutshell, it feels like at the very least if they have the same name they should probably be the same character (it's already really common for characters to have multiple decos of the same toy, and wouldn't even be the first time a character has had toys of different factions) -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 17:54, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::The thing is, Categories 3 and 4 are linked with 7 and 8, respectively (3 and 7 are the Battle Patrol/Team and 4 and 8 are the Sports Car Patrol/Super Car Patrol Team). So anything we do with 3 and 4 must also apply to 7 and 8. Plus, the Air Strike Patrol/Team is similarly split between Categories 2 and 6, so they're linked as well. However, Category 6 is full of characters that we consider separate, particularly Airwave/Overair whom even Hasbro distinguished from each other in Earthrise. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:19, 19 October 2021 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2021-10-19T23:28:22Z

Jimsorenson: /* Merge ROC Micromasters with Hasbro Micromasters */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/N99Bygq our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
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<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
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<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Changing format of some older pages. ==

Hey everyone, it had been discussed earlier today on Discord that the G1 [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] page is in need of a complete revamp. Suggestions had been made to archive the original format of the page to keep the joke alive and available for those who still wish to see and admire it, while starting fresh in our standard character page format. It is nothing against the running joke per se, it mainly boils down to the rhyming starting to take its toll on the information that the page is supposed to present to readers of the wiki. I myself, before joining the wiki and even now, always avoid the page like a plague, as it is hard to navigate and actually obtain any information from, which goes against what the page is intended to do.

That doesn't mean all of the rhyming has to go, it is still welcome in the opening paragraph and image captions, but general consensus on Discord is that it could do to be more informative. I also believe that the long-running joke is starting to take its toll on editors adding any new additions while trying to keep with the rhyming format and quite frankly, I believe that to be another downfall to the article since the wiki is made to be as accessible as possible for anyone to edit and it just adds another layer of complications. I bring this up here rather than on the talk page as it has also been suggested that the same be done to G1 [[Rewind (G1)|Rewind]]'s page too for the same reasons.

I advice that you please make these discussions on the individual talk pages: '''[[Talk:Wheelie (G1)]]''' and '''[[Talk:Rewind (G1)]]'''.

Feel free to bring up any other pages worth making similar changes to '''here''' as there is bound to be others that could do to be looked over too.

Thank you and Happy 2021 to all! -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:53, 1 January 2021 (EST)

:'''Just a quick follow up after reading back over what was said on Discord:''' We could possibly keep the pages as is and keep them as the featured articles they are currently, while having a suite with a link to a more informative version, therefore keeping the jokes and also having a variant that actually makes "sense". Funny still wins as the main page and the other can be for readers to actually learn something more about the characters. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 06:39, 1 January 2021 (EST)
::I'm for redoing both into normal prose. Save the jokes for the intro. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:36, 1 January 2021 (EST)

== All the human collaborators should have a page ==

The Human collaborators is the concept of [[Human]]s being allied with the [[Decepticon]]s. It exists since the beginning of the brand, brought to existence in the [[Megatron's Master Plan]] Duology from the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Transformers G1 cartoon]] and appeared for the last time in [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Transformers: Dark of the Moon]], With DOTM 10th year anniversary on the horizon, i'm thinking of creating a page for all them. In fact i'm creating a sandbox about it and i want to know if its a good idea to do that or not. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 14:21, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:Our existing "Category:Humans" is in pretty bad shape. It's divided into dozens of subcategories already so that the "main" listing is nowhere near a single comprehensive list. Instead people went and added subgroups like "Classified Humans" and "Military Humans" and many many etc. From an educational resource perspective it would probably be more useful to streamline the category we already have. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:41, 18 January 2021 (EST)
::Okay i'll streamline the "Category:Humans" but how am i supposed to do that? --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 15:42, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:::Decepticon human collaborators have been around a lot longer than just season 2 of G1. [[Doctor Arkeville]] was actually the first Decepticon ally. Even then, characters collaborating with Decepticons had been around in the years in between G1 and DOTM. the Marvel G1 comics, Dreamwave comics, IDW comics and such, more than likely had a lot of instances where that was a thing too (I'm not too familiar with a lot of those comics). ''Animated'' had some of the human villains working with the Decepticons on some occassions too.

:::As for the human collaborators page, I don't feel that a separate page needs to be made, there was never a collective group or organization of them, just occassional cases of random people being told what to do while more or less being held at gun point, or on some occassions, given the sweet promise of world domination. I think if anything, Thylacine's idea of making a subcategory would probably be your best bet, but a better name would be "Decepticon allied humans" or something. As far as I'm aware, there is no page for Autobot allied humans (which there are crap tons of), so there is really no point in making one for the Decepticon allies. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:10, 18 January 2021 (EST)
:::: It most certainly is not "my idea to make a new subcategory." We have too many subcategories already. Most of them are dumb and are at the expense of having a useful, comprehensive Human category.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:09, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:There really is little to no point to a page for this concept; a category will do. That'd just be opening up for countless list-pages of random Things People In Fiction Sometimes Do, and this wiki is historically not keen on list pages. There's a lot of stuff characters do/are that don't have pages just because the concept is too vague, too broad, or too obvious that a page would not actually provide any new information (or comedy potential) on how its use within ''Transformers'' fiction is different from the immediately obvious. There's no page for "ninjas" (that just links to the Category), but "Cyber-Ninja Corps", a very specifically-defined group of ninjas, does get a page.
:And... look, not to sound mean, but... if you have no idea how a big major overhauling project might be done, maybe you should leave that task to someone else. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:40, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:Besides "bad guys" like Shawn Berger or Doctor Arkeville, does Spike count when he went nuts as Autobot Spike and used Megatron to fire on the Autobots? Or do [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]] and [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] count when the Autobots had a truce with the Decepticons against a [[Dark Star|cosmically-powered Starscream]]? Or take [[Skywarp (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Skywarp]]: he joined G.I.Joe and worked with them. Does that make all of G.I. Joe human collaborators? I hope not. If someone has to think this hard about who actually belongs to a category, it will actually clutter up the wiki instead of clarify relationships. Everything that ''could'' be grouped doesn't necessarily benefit from a page or category. It may be worth noting briefly ''on individual character pages'' about some characters' tendencies to work with Decepticons. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 19:31, 18 January 2021 (EST)

:Okay it seems a page won't really be necessary, so i won't do it. But i'm until now trying to know how am i supposed to streamline the "Category:humans"? --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 22:37, 18 January 2021 (EST)
::Coming up with the answer to your question is the bulk of the task itself. It's a lot of work and there's no immediately obvious and clear approach. If you'd like to try something, use a sandbox and communicate with us here. If you need a lot of guidance, it's best to leave it to someone else like Sipher said. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 22:14, 19 January 2021 (EST)

::I think i'll create a category called "Human Collaborators", but only after the "Category:humans" is streamlined, which is something someone must do here since i don't know how to do this and by doing so will help this wiki a lot. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 19:56, 21 January 2021 (EST)
:::I honestly think that is the ''opposite'' of what we need. The first thing to be done after streamlining should not be the addition of more subcategories. The point has been made that there are too many human subcategories already, and I agree. You seem very intent on specifically adding information about Decepticon-allied humans. Keep in mind that this is not an official faction. This is effectively like creating a category about "Humans With Yellow Boots and Blue Pants and Hard Hats". Yes, that group exists, but unless it's very funny, we don't need it. Going forward, I recommend focusing on contributing to what the wiki lacks (say, by adding information on our pages with stubs) instead of searching for differences without distinction. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 21:04, 21 January 2021 (EST)

== Finishing the "Story sections" in the Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (PS2/Wii) and (PSP) pages. ==

The story of the PSP and PS2/Wii versions of Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen video game must be concluded and i wanted to do this myself, but i'm having difficulties due to my family and i making preparations to move out. So the question is: Can someone insert the synopsis of the remaining chapters of each version of the game here? Because if you can it will help this wiki a lot. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 15:25, 31 January 2021 (EST)
: That is entirely contingent on whether or not any of the regular contributors own the game or a system to play it on. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:07, 31 January 2021 (EST)

What's the matter? can't someone see it on Youtube and then write what they've saw on the articles? Because that's how i got the information about the story of the games i insert here. In fact that's how i got the necessary info to create the [[Quest for Optimus Prime]] and [[MechTech Wars]] online games and to insert the story of [[Transformers: Shadows Rising]]. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk:Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 21:14, 31 January 2021 (EST)
:You know, petulantly whining at other people to do work there is absolutely no rush on, on a site done on a volunteer basis, doesn't really get any of it done faster. Tends to ''dis''incentivize people to do it, actually. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:42, 1 February 2021 (EST)
::The pages have been stubs for this long, I doubt having them being left a little longer will hurt anyone. They're bound to still be there once you're done moving and have more free time on your hands. There's no rush. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 07:33, 1 February 2021 (EST)

== Micro-Sized ==

Hey all, was wondering if we should make a page/archive for the Mini-Con/Micro-Sized profiles from the Collectors' Club website and magazine?

They seem to be rather important pieces of fiction for a lot of those Mini-Cons and I feel we should have some form of proper write ups or a proper link to archives of the profiles themselves at the very least. Half the character pages have the profiles summed up in brief opening paragraphs but some people (me included) may want to read some of the online profiles which the Collectors' Club website doesn't appear to have anymore.

Just an idea I thought might be interesting to look into. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:04, 31 January 2021 (EST)

:Yeah, but... is it legal for us to archive that material? I honestly don't know what the current status is of fiction produced under FP (or 3H, for that matter). Does Hasbro "own" it? Does Brian Savage? Does anybody? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 12:48, 24 February 2021 (EST)
::Fun Publications produced that material under license from Hasbro and TakaraTomy. I assume Hasbro owns it just as they enable their current comic partner IDW to reprint Marvel and Dreamwave material. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 12:57, 24 February 2021 (EST)

== New signups temporarily suspended ==

New signups have been temporarily suspended due to excessive vandalism. Apologies for the inconvenience. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 04:04, 28 February 2021 (EST)
:And now they should be back on. Thank you for your patience. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:46, 7 March 2021 (EST)

== Reducing negative ''Energon'' episode notes. ==

Alrighty, since the wiki has been taking a pretty neutral approach to things over recent years and we had already decided on reducing excessive sarcasm and negativity to the ''Energon'' cartoon page, I feel the episode pages should probably follow suit.

I'm just started my annual rewatch of the show and I'm going to add, subtract and alter things like I did in the ''Armada'' episode pages after each watch. I'm already making a start on removing pieces of sarcasm listed as "trivia" that ''really'' doesn't need to be highlighted and is only there for the sake of bashing the show.

That being said, errors, plotholes, continuity issues etc. are fine, but the "pain count" sections probably should either be removed or be relabelled as "stock phrase count" or something along those lines. I'm personally still alright with the caption jokes and quote jokes, but the excessive "This character sucks because the show sucks." is definitely a no go.

After a disscussion on Discord, it had also been suggested that we list common stock phrases from the Unicron Trilogy on a separate page much like we do for [[Furmanism]]s. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 03:25, 2 March 2021 (EST)
:Before anyone goes to the trouble of creating an entire "Energonisms" page, it is worth examining whether the series is well-known or well-liked enough for that to be worthwhile. Furman wrote hundreds of comics & scripts across multiple series and about 25 years; his repeat phrases are more noticeable and important. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:36, 2 March 2021 (EST)
::I still disagree with the concept of "Furmanisms". They're just pulpy phrasing. It's hardly unique to him. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:14, 2 March 2021 (EST)
:::I'll be honest, the Furmanisms page is filled with rather common oldschool comicbook phrases that aren't ''really'' unique to him or ''Transformers'' for that matter. You can almost guarantee that those phrases have been used in even older comics from the 60s, like ''X-Men'' for example. Hell, they've possibly been used in material even older than that. I generally stay clear of anything that makes references to that page, because it is full of blurred lines. Perhaps this should also be a topic for discussion. In terms of Energonisms, I personally don't agree with it either, but I thought I better bring it up for those who aren't on Discord.
:::My main concern right now is whether we should remove the "pain count" sections from the episode pages. As I've been binging the show and updating episode info, I've been working around them, but they still hold a heavy tone of negativity while everything else around them has been altered to the neutral tone. I've tried to think of a better title to use in its place, but the further through the episode pages I go, the more excessively negative it seems to get. Yes there are a ''lot'' of stock phrases used, but if people start to include other ones that haven't already been listed—and there are quite a few—pretty soon we're gonna end up with entire dub scripts for the episodes listed lol. As for stock footage counts, it's common in practically every Japanese ''Transformers'' series (From BWII onwards at the very least), so listing them is just another example of adding things to bash the show. Our [[Transformers Wiki:Captions#Captions and jokes we're sick of|captions/jokes policies]] also state that ''Energon'' jokes are pretty much frowned upon by today's wiki standards.
:::As I am writing this post, it has also occured to me that ''Cybertron''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s episode pages have pain counts that follow the same outline too (listing stock phrases and stock footage), so perhaps we should look into removing those for the same reasons. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 06:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::I feel it should be pointed out that many of the stock phrases from Energon ("Uh...", "Huh?" "Let's do it!", "Wait up!" etc.) were first used by the same dubbing team back in Armada. If any new page is going to be created for those phrases, it's only fair that those from Armada (and probably from Cybertron too) be included since those phrases are not exclusive to Energon even if it's in that show that they're the worst offender. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:58, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::I agree with removing the pain counts and overall negativity from the UT-related pages, while I disagree with creating the "Energonisms" page because that would neuter our efforts to remove said negativity. I also never cared for Furmanisms so I don't even see a reason for that page to still exist tbh. [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 13:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::I don't think there's a need for Energonisms, but I think Furmanisms need to stay based solely on the fact that they're a known factor and both Furman and other creators have leaned into their existence in self-referential and parodical ways, enough that it makes sense to have a page explaining them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:34, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::::It's funny you say that, Fritz. ''Armada'' was the first place to use the stock phrases, yet the episode pages were absent of any pain counts or any real negativity in general. As for ''Cybertron'', listing the pain counts on those pages seems to hold the same weight as the negativity I pruned down on the main ''Armada'' page a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be an outdated case of critisms that were made when the show first came out. In my experience, ''Cybertron'', while still not perfect, still remains the pretty widely enjoyed out of the three shows among the Facebook groups and stuff I've been in.

:::::::At the end of the day, I don't feel it's really the wiki's place to tell people how to feel towards something. It's one thing to mention issues and critisms, but when you're pushing personal opinions onto the reader, making them steer clear of the show entirely instead of letting them form their own opinions, it doesn't really help keep the history of the brand we're supposed to be documenting alive. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 15:28, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::::The keyword there is "outdated." Energon is from 2003 and the "pain count" stuff was probably all written in 2007 or so. In 2021 no one is creating canon with ironic joking references to a hypothetical Energonism, and even if they did, the whole source of complaint is that the dialogue is so interchangeable and empty that if someone were to say it in a future series it would probably just be seen as unrelated new bad dialogue. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:44, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::::::::So I guess we're all pretty much on the same page here then. From the response I got on Discord a few days ago and the repsonse here, it seems pretty clear that the "Pain counts" should go. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 16:11, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::::::::::Totally agree with you there, Fanofcoolstuff27. I watched ''Energon'' and ''Cybertron'' for the first time just last year and actually enjoyed the latter a lot. At the time I felt that the pain counts were harming my own enjoyment of reading the wiki after watching each episode and I even consider removing them by myself. So I'm glad this is finally up for debate and other people are agreeing on getting rid of them. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:27, 5 March 2021 (EST)
I think this kind of went off on a big digression about "Energonisms" and personal liking of the series, but I think this is enough consensus to reduce the negativity of the Energon articles. (The episodes could use better summaries as well.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:35, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:The pain counts can go, but I'm 100% against removing the overal tone of negativity. Like it or not, Energon is a dull show with an objectively mediocre dub, and consistently remains the most disliked of any televised Transformers cartoon. To try and soften that in the Energon articles almost feels like a disservice to 20 years of near-universal fan rejection. (And the reason we say not to make Energon jokes on the caption page was because they were getting excessive across the whole wiki. That said, while other pages shouldn't be saddled with such jokes, there's no reason to sugarcoat things on the Energon articles themselves.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:41, 5 March 2021 (EST)
::Agreed, and definitely on that last point. Energon is garbage in any language, and I feel we do a disservice to act like it's not a rushed, cheap, ugly job by the lowest bidder that runs out of plot halfway through its episode count and has to start over even BEFORE you take into account the first-draft English dub. And yes, the captions page remark about it and many other objects of derision is mostly about the ''unoriginality'' and ''over-use'' of adding ''new'' joke captions about it, not "it's wrong". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:35, 5 March 2021 (EST)
:::See, my issue here isn't neccessarily the negativity itself, more the overuse of it. I've already taken it upon myself to remove silly pieces of "trivia" that aren't trivia at all and are more just an attempt to bash a bad show. You can mention all of it's flaws and whatever, there is no problem with that. It's the constant nitpickiness that is added, when just about ''every'' Transformers show has more or less the ''exact'' same issues. The line between openly pointing out issues in one show and turning a blind eye to those same issues in other shows is ''very'' blurred.

:::Given our recent response on Discord towards the removal of "Pain counts" from the Energon episode pages, perhaps we could at least settle with a mid-ground compromise. My proposal: The removal of stock footage from the counts. It's not exclusive to Energon at all, so listing them as a ''bad'' thing builds a pretty poor case. Yeah, there is a ''lot'' of stock footage use, but the show is to sell Transformers toys, so highlighting the brand's main attraction is hardly a crime. BWII, BWN, RID/Car Robots, Robot Masters, Armada/Legends of the Microns, Energon/Super Link, Cybertron/Galaxy Force, Animated, Go!, RID 2015 and I wanna say Cyberverse (?) are all guilty of using stock footage. Only about three of them are English-speaking original shows, while the rest of them are Japanese shows. It's practically been a tradition to include stock footage transformations and combinations at this point. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:31, 5 March 2021 (EST)

== Voice actor categorization ==

I really don't like the idea of putting voice actors into company categories based on shows or games they've appeared in (see [[:Category:Activision]] or [[:Category:DreamWorks]] for example). This seems a little disingenuous, considering that none of these are employees of these companies, but rather freelance. Furthermore, this doesn't include all the different shows' production companies, but rather more like picking and choosing at random. If you were to categorize them at all, I would either do so based on the studio the series was recorded at (such as Voicebox or Studiopolis) or make new "(show) voice cast" categories. (But honestly, my first choice would be to not do so at all.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:17, 6 March 2021 (EST)
:How about we create nested categories such as "Category:Activision freelancers"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:34, 22 March 2021 (EDT)
::"Category:Activision voice actors"? Maybe something similar with other videogames or tv series'/movies? "Category:____ voice actors". [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:39, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

== Energon Terrorcons ==

I'm having issues with the way we have the ''Energon'' Terrorcon pages currently set up. The pages have a lot of misinformation being spread within them and between them and I'm not entirely sure how we should handle it.

The show presents three different colour variants/breeds/races of flying Terrorcon: Divebomb, a "Stealth Divebomb" (which is the Command Ravage colour palette placed on Divebomb), and the Shadowhawk Cosmo Type/Blackout colour scheme. I've just gone and removed the stealth colour scheme write ups from Blackout's page as they are clearly not the same thing and it would fall under potential citogenesis.

My proposal for this issue would be to move "Blackout (Terrorcon)" to "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" and just make mention of the Energon dubs' cock up with the names as a note or that an individual Terrorcon named "Blackout" is also among them. Much like "Command Ravage", "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" is also an official name and it's my understanding that if Hasbro names aren't available, we generally opt for the Takara names instead (e.g. [[Mirror]]), and because "Blackout" is referred to as an individual rather than a race/breed, it would be hard to use that as an offical English-language designation. I also don't feel that there would be enough to warrant an individual Shadowhawk Cosmo Type page and a Blackout page, as they'd contain most of the same information.

Secondly, I'm wondering if the stealth decoed Divebombs warrant their own page under a nickname title? e.g. [[Watchdog (G1)]]. They are clearly a different breed to the two aforementioned races and with the Command Ravages being present alongside them, it only seems fair to mark them on a separate page too. If others agree, I was thinking maybe "Stealth Divebomb" or something, as the title—unless ''Super Link'' has a better term used in the episode?

Thirdly, and the least important of noting on this list of issues: The Planet Q natives featured in the flashback (before the planet was destroyed) use both the Shadowhawk Cosmo Type model and a recoloured version of the Battle Ravage model in the same colours. Do these Battle Ravage redecos warrant a page or is a note on the respective mold pages enough for them?

Thank Primus that the Insecticons and Cruellocks don't suffer from this issue of multiple breeds/repaints presented on-screen.

Let me know what you think. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:49, 10 March 2021 (EST)

:I would make a "Shadowhawk Cosmo Type" article for that color scheme in general, but keep the Blackout article for that specific individual. All of the other weird color schemes like "Shadowhawk Desert Type" could just go on the regular article, with notes pointing out their existence. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:35, 10 March 2021 (EST)

::Sounds like a plan. I'll get a sandbox started for the Cosmo Type Terrorcons. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 15:44, 10 March 2021 (EST)

== Excessively long toy pages ==

Let's face it. A few pages such as "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]]" and "[[Megatron (G1)/toys]]" have become so long that they can slow down a device just to be loaded. Will we allow indefinite expansion such that page scrolling time will balloon further? We need to do some kind of split that will set up a second page for many years to come. Some months back, there was a discussion on the Discord server suggesting the start of ''Generations'' in 2010 as a useful dividing boundary. Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:38, 13 March 2021 (EST)
:I agree with the split from ''Generations''. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:36, 13 March 2021 (EST)
::If no one is against this split, I might make a start on it now because I was editing the G1 Prime page before and I was worried it was going to make Chrome crash with how long it was taking just to load the previews for my edits. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 07:22, 14 April 2021 (EDT)
:Regarding Megatron, I propose splitting out all non-transforming gun mode accessories that were available with other figures into their own page. There are a ''lot'' of those, and they don't need to clutter up a page along with the transforming figures.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 07:59, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

== Template:quote and Template:bigquote ==

Why do we have both of these? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:39, 16 March 2021 (EDT)

:the big one looks much better and less confusing. i suggest getting rid of the normal one. --[[User:GobotsFanForever|GobotsFanForever]] ([[User talk:GobotsFanForever|talk]]) 07:48, 16 March 2021 (EDT)
:While I find the big one hideously obnoxious and would suggest getting rid of it.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:32, 16 March 2021 (EDT)
:sorry, it turns out that for some reason, the normal quotes were not showing up properly on my computer. but now they are. now the big quotes do seem kinda unnecessary. --[[User:GobotsFanForever|GobotsFanForever]] ([[User talk:GobotsFanForever|talk]]) 21:11, 16 March 2021 (EDT)

== Merge or not to merge the ROTF toyline and N.E.S.T. Global Alliance pages. ==

I think we should merge the [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|ROTF toyline]] and the N.E.S.T. Global Alliance pages, since they're both from the [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]] movie, along with the fact that some toys from that [[subline imprint]] are in the ROTF page. Besides, the reason why users here want their pages to be merged is the same from the [[Transformers: Armada (toyline)|Armada]] and The Unicron Battles, which by the time of this talk, they're already merged. --[[User:Cybertron Forever|Cybertron Forever]] ([[User talk: Cybertron Forever|talk]]) 16:52 18 March 2021 (EST)
:I'm down with that. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:40, 22 March 2021 (EDT)

==All those Takara BW-era-ish named weapon pages==
So this caught my eye... we have a buncha pages for the various named weapons from the BW2/Neo-era toys, and... do we need them at all? Do these pages actually contain enough unique information to justify them? I mean, we got individual pages for Archadis's "[[Wing Gundread]]s", "[[Wing Bomb]]s" and "[[Founder Shot]]", and not a one of them has anything that the actual Archadis page doesn't cover. Seems like most of these don't have any special effects like the "torque rifle" or "electro-scrambler" and such; it makes more sense to have those pages since the special effects are all right there without having to sift through non-weapon info, which feels like a good resource for writing purposes to see how these special weapons were used. But if they're all just normal old blasters and swords and whatnot, the individual pages are basically just severely chainsawed versions of the character pages. Feels kind of pointless and wasteful of the reader's time to point them at these pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:27, 30 March 2021 (EDT)
:After going through it all, I'm starting to think this is a valid point. Half of these weapons wouldn't even have enough information to fill a page to be quite honest—and that's after filling the fiction stubs too. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 08:24, 31 March 2021 (EDT)

==New Molds are Not News==
It quickly gets repetitive for toy entries to say such-and-such is a new mold. I think we should have "new mold" be the default, unsaid expectation, instead pointing out when toys are retools / redecos. "Actually a new mold" should be saved for occasions when something looks or is widely perceived to be a remold but actually isn't (i.e. Smokejumper / Energon Starscream). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:03, 7 April 2021 (EDT)
:Agreed.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:58, 7 April 2021 (EDT)
::Agreed. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:54, 7 April 2021 (EDT)

== Impending upgrade ==

My intention is to attempt an upgrade of the wiki's core software tomorrow. It is not going to be a large jump in versions, so I don't anticipate it will break anything, but you never know. I'll post again here closer to the time. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 05:17, 23 April 2021 (EDT)
:In, let's say, around about three hours. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:16, 24 April 2021 (EDT)
::Ten minute warning! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 02:49, 24 April 2021 (EDT)
All done. Please go about your business. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 03:20, 24 April 2021 (EDT)

== Change to combiner team member lists? ==

Inspired by some comments Chris was pointing out from his new Aerialbot video, I was thinking about how we could better contextualise the various extra/alternate members most combiner teams have wound up with over the years, rather than simply putting them all in a plain list that can, for instance, wrongfully give the impression that Balloon is a noteworthy Aerialbot and not a literal joke. Put together a sandbox to show what I was thinking: [[User:Jalaguy/Sandbox/Aerialbot]] - thoughts? I think this is one of those occasions - like Unicron's history and stuff - where going out-of-universe for a bit is the best way of communicating important context to the reader. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:15, 24 April 2021 (EDT)

== Request and code review for adding JS-based tabbed tables ==

A few of us were inspired by the tabbed tables on other wikis. For example, [https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort the Kingdom Hearts wiki], a main character has tables that contain "Profile" and "Journal" tabs. This request is strictly about tabs, not general infoboxes. I pulled the relevant JS and CSS and created a [[Template:Tab]], and added the custom JS and CSS to my user page, and things seem fine. The tabifier only relies on jQuery, so we don't need to add anything extra. I have videos of the behavior on our Discord too.

Would it be possible for an admin (abates?) to review the proposed additions, and if approved, merge them into the page load?
:JS: https://github.com/tf-wiki-discord/wiki-utils/blob/main/tabber.js
:CSS: https://github.com/tf-wiki-discord/wiki-utils/blob/main/tabber.css

Thanks for reviewing/considering! [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 13:22, 29 April 2021 (EDT)
:What's the intention to use tabs for? My main reservation would be with user experience. E.G. putting stuff behind a tab hides it from a browser search, so if a user googles a term and ends up on a page where the mention of that term is hidden behind a tab, they might not be able to find it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:57, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

::One intended use-case would be supplementary. For most Transformers, I can imagine a "tabbed mainpic", one tab being bot mode and the other being the alt mode. I'm thinking particularly about a ''[[The Transformers Universe|Transformers Universe]]'' or Dreamwave's ''[[Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More Than Meets the Eye]]'', where bot mode and alt mode are viewable together as a single visual unit. And this is extendable to triple- or multi-changers, or can be ignored for Action Masters. This use is not restricted to mainpic use either. I don't think images of alt modes being hidden behind a tab is worse than things are now. [[User:Saix|Saix]] and [[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] may want to weigh in here. [[User:Prime Radiant|Prime Radiant]] ([[User talk:Prime Radiant|talk]]) 19:42, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

:::This is essentially a prelude to a more specific policy proposal once we get the machinery up and running and start working with it but I believe this concept of a "tabbed image" to display all modes of a character model, toy, etc without compromising readability to be perhaps the most potent utility of this technology. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 20:25, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

::::I can see this possibly being useful for toys that end up with multiple modes used within fiction like any of the ''Legends'' and ''Generations Selects'' characters with canonized "fan-modes" that get a little crazy to document in a single image or maybe having the Hasbro and Takara variants in a tabbed system?

::::The only thing I find that could potentially go wrong using a tab system at the top of an article for robot and alt modes, is the fact that G1 characters (as an example)—especially in the JG1 fiction—have been through multiple bodies with multiple vehicle modes. Even G1 Prime hasn't been the same exact flat-nosed cab for the 35+ years between American continuities. So this still kinda falls under the whole "prioritizing one thing over the rest" argument that the info box discussion created on Discord. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:42, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

:::::I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves on the specifics of implementation at this juncture but I will say we've gone round on the philosophy of potential "alt mode mainpics" a bit on the Discord and I believe it would be important to emphasize consistency with the character model selected for the bot mode mainpic as opposed to getting lost in the weeds of a character's "one true alt mode" or what have you. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 21:29, 29 April 2021 (EDT)

== New bot account on site ==
I wanted to give a heads up that we have a new bot account on the site: [[User:FuncGammaBot]]. This account is owned by the developer of the WikiClientLibrary library that [[User:Teletraan-X]] uses for logging in to the site. The developer asked to use us for testing his code against MediaWiki 1.19 because Fandom no longer has a 1.19 site for them to test against. I consulted with abates and since he had no issues with the developer using us for unit tests, I let them know it was okay. Unit tests are automated code tests that are run to make sure that: A. a new code fix works and B. that said new code fix doesn't break something else. This testing will allow the library to continue workinga and thus Teletraan-X to continue working while on TFWiki is on version 1.19. The account will only be interacting with it's own sandbox and not making any edits to actual content pages or the like. I wanted to let everyone know so they aren't wondering what this weird account is doing only editing sandbox pages. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 15:46, 17 May 2021 (EDT)

== Establishing gallery pages for characters ==

So it seems we (and creators) have run into problems with poor references (especially regarding alternate modes) and there's the simple fact that there's a huge lack of ''any'' central resource for official ''Transformers'' renders and art (aka assets)—especially for older media like ''Beast Machines''. In that regard, I'm proposing we create gallery pages for at least characters with multiple bodies and incarnations and also serve as a repository for art. I've created [[User:Saix/Megatron (BW)/gallery|an example for Beast Megatron]] that I hope will illustrate what I imagine those galleries to look like. Any thoughts or concerns about this? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:33, 27 May 2021 (EDT)

== Technically correct but needlessly vague section headers, unhelpful "fiction first" format ==

I stumbled across this on the [[Cyclonus's Armada]] page. For reasons unknown to me, the section that covers how Marvel's comic adaptation of the 1986 animated movie handled Cyclonus and "his Armada" is placed under the not-so-obvious header "Marvel future timelines", with a storylink leading to "Judgment Day!", which I have to click in order to find out that it's actually not a UK future timeline story, but the comic adaptation of the movie. This is not helpful. Especially when there's currently still a deeplink further down in the "Origins" section that links to a now-defunct "Marvel The Transformers: The Movie comic adaptation" section.

Also, I feel like the "Cyclonus's Armada" section is suffering from the "fiction first, real life background information later" format. In cases where the subject of a page is a major conundrum that's more notable for the mystery surrounding it than for its fictional portrayal itself, I propose we should ingore the standard and put the background information above the fiction sections in order to make those pages more accessible to casual readers I'm not sure yet if that should be applied to [[Swerve (Chevy)]] as well.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:30, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

[[Krunix (G1)]] might also benefit from an "explanation first" format. Not quite sure yet regarding [[Mister Johnson]].--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:53, 30 May 2021 (EDT)

== Repurpose notes ==

Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to add a bit to the repurposed toys note to identify where this happened? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:09, 9 June 2021 (EDT)
:That is a logical course of action. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:26, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Beast Era parentheticals ==

As already discussed here on [[Talk:Silverbolt (G1)#Earth Wars BW Silverbolt IS NOT G1 SILVERBOLT|jetliner Silverbolt's talk page]], ''Earth Wars'' has clarified the need to reestablish the original Magnaboss toy trio as their own individuals with separate pages. For some consistency, what is our take on how the parentheticals will work out when Fuzors and Transmetals have not appeared outside the ''Beast Wars'' franchise?

Is this preferable?<br>
Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (BW eagle), Silverbolt (BW Fuzor), Prowl (G1), Prowl (BW lion), Prowl (BW Transmetal 2)

Or is this preferable?<br>
Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (BW eagle), Silverbolt (Fuzor), Prowl (G1), Prowl (BW lion), Prowl (Transmetal 2)

Should the Fuzor and owl still have "BW"? I point out that such labelling does serve as a handy signal for readers as to which franchise a wiki URL belongs. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:20, 12 June 2021 (EDT)
:"(BW Transmetal 2)" is definitely too long. In Owl Prowl's case, he either ought to stay at "Prowl II" (due to the complications of his past, or in consistency with Transmetal 2 Dinobot similarly being at "Dinobot II"), or be moved to either "Prowl (BW owl)", "Prowl (BW TM2)", or just "Prowl (TM2)". Of those choices, I'm leaning towards either "Prowl (BW owl)" since it would be consistent with "Prowl (BW lion), or "Prowl (TM2)" since Transmetals 2 are still just a BW-only thing. The latter would also enable the lion to be as "Prowl (BW)", unless that's too misleading since he isn't the only BW Prowl, in which case "(BW lion)" and "(BW owl)" would be the most concise.
:As for the Silverbolts, I've given my piece about them, but for a recap, I'm for "Silverbolt (BW eagle)" and "Silverbolt (BW Fuzor)", with "Silverbolt (BW)" redirected to the latter. While the Fuzor is unquestionably the more prominent of the two, the eagle came first and was, for a whole year, the only BW Silverbolt in existence at the time. He has every right to the "(BW)" tag just as much as the Fuzor does. Keeping "(BW)" in the title of both makes it immediately clear that both are BW-original characters without ever having to read the article.
:Frankly, I am not a fan of "(Magnaboss)" as a tag since, to the uninformed, "Silverbolt (Magnaboss)" and "Prowl (Magnaboss)" make it look like we're saying that this Silverbolt and this Prowl are each "a Magnaboss", which is misleading for anyone who doesn't know who or what Magnaboss is. Sure, it only takes a second to read their articles, but "(BW eagle)" and (BW lion) are more direct and to the point, instantly getting the message across that they both originated from BW.
:And if the eagle gets to keep "BW" in its tag, then certainly the Fuzor should as well since, as mentioned, he is the more prominent of the two BW Silverbolts and shouldn't be forced to lose his "BW" to the eagle, even if the eagle has just as much right to it. Ergo, they both can share. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:51, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
I vote for the first option except for Prowl the Owl, who I think works best as Prowl (BW Owl).
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 01:34, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
:I'm personally thinking "Prowl (BW)", "Prowl (TM2)", "Silverbolt (eagle)" and "Silverbolt (Fuzor)". To me it just needlessly over complicates things by having "(BW eagle)" and "(BW Fuzor)" because we don't go "[[Swerve (Universe)|Swerve (Universe -insert whatever specifics here-)]]" and "[[Swerve (Chevy)|Swerve (Universe Chevy)]]", we try to keep the character page titles as short and sweet as possible. With that, I'd also propose that we move "Dinobot II" to "Dinobot (TM2)" because I don't recall him ever being referred to by that name in the cartoon and it certainly wasn't the name given to the toy. As far as I can tell that was just something the sourcebook added to differentiate between multiple characters with the same name (e.g. Magnaboss II and Silverbolt II). We've also tried to move away from those sourcebook naming conventions due to a lot of them being incorrect or misleading in the wider scheme of things, especially for the Japanese characters. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:48, 13 June 2021 (EDT)
::TM2 Dinobot was referred to as "Dinobot 2" in the Dreamwave Summer Special and as "Dinobot II" in Beast Wars Sourcebook. It's not a thing we made up. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 08:14, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
:I continue to be opposed to inventing "compound tags" that aren't canonical terms. "Magnaboss" is a canonical term, just as much as "Stunticon," and I don't think it's so confusing to potential readers seeing it that they wouldn't think to click the link and understand just how it was possible. My votes: Silverbolt (G1), Silverbolt (Magnaboss), Prowl (Magnaboss), Prowl (TM2), Silverbolt (Fuzor). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:51, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::As I had just stated on [[Talk:Silver Bolt]] and [[Talk:Prowl (Magnaboss)]], I'm actually in favour of using the "(Magnaboss)" parentheticals for all three of the Magnaboss components, after seeing how it looks as an actual page title. It unifies them and is simple and the most effective imo. I am still 100% against using the animal alt-modes in the titles as it just looks unprofessional and made up, as Thylacine had more or less pointed out. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:38, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
:::If we ''really'' have to, we could always make it "(BW Magnaboss)" as a happy medium. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:42, 18 June 2021 (EDT)
::::That's redundant. "Magnaboss" is simple and straight to the point. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 10:09, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Rethinking Shattered Glass as a franchise/continuity family ==

Between the “Shards” mini-series, the new Generations Selects toys, and an increasing amount of high end collector statues, it seems like the concept of a ''Transformers'' mirror universe isn’t going away any time soon. All mirrorverse fiction since the original comic has latched onto the title “Shattered Glass”, even when that name hasn’t been applied to that particular fiction, creating “ghost” franchises like “Shattered Glass ''Animated''” and “Shattered Glass ''Movie''”. Given that these have no bearing on actual franchises – there’s no “real” “Shattered Glass ''Cybertron''”, for example – I’m proposing that we treat “Shattered Glass” as less of a series of franchises and more as one big continuity family.

It’s true that:

a) continuity families are a fake idea made up by the wiki to allow for easier organisation

b) big concepts that span numerous franchises go on one article, e.g. [[Autobot]], [[Decepticon]], [[Cybertron (planet)]]

c) sometimes two characters from different continuity families share a page when they are either straight up the same guy ([[Side Burn (RID)]], [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]), or when their appearance is so negligible that it’s barely worth splitting them ([[Buckshot]], [[Reachout (TF 2010)]])

Given the above, I propose that all of “Shattered Glass” be treated as one continuity family, with subheadings for G1 (the club fiction, “Expectations”, “Recordicons”, SD SG, “Shards”), ''Animated'' (lithographs, bios), ''Movie'' (''Forged to Fight'', high-end statues/merchandise), and whatever other mirror universes are concerned. Character articles should be moved to (SG) namespaces and merged where appropriate.

I’ve whipped up a rough concept for Optimus Prime in my [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sandbox:Shat|sandbox]]. Let me know what you think of this idea below or on the Discord server. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:29, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
: Absolutely against this. It might be fine for Prime, but there is nothing linking SG Goldbug with SG Animated Bumblebee, for example. We can stand having a few smaller articles, not everything should be merged. We aren't Wikipedia, and I don't want to see this implemented. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:54, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::I kinda like this idea, ''but'' I can also see where this could get ''very'' complicated, ''very'' fast, it's definitely not a "one size fits all" type of solution, as Escargon has stated. If nothing else, I think a continuity family page for SG (if we don't already have one) would be a good idea to have the concept laid out in the one place, since it has been used all across the franchise, but combining character articles and such is definitely looking like a possible issue. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:07, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::Bumblebee would be the exception. An ideal SG Bumblebee article would start with a G1 section to the effect of "Bumblebee was small and looked like Cliffjumper; for more information see Goldbug (SG)" followed by the two relatively similar, quiet-spoken backstabber versions from Animated and Forged to Fight. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 10:16, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::I'm really not sure about that. What's the point of folding them together if you're going to split one of the most prominent ones out? It's all or nothing, in my opinion. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 10:19, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::::Even more than that, there's characters like Rhinox; there's nothing linking the gag character with the morally ambiguous TransTech one. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:22, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::::And before anyone brings up classic examples like Marvel v Sunbow guys, those were characters based on the same toys. Not quite the same with SG guys. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:24, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::::The one thing I agree is that we should have a page compiling all Shattered Glass universes and listing them the same way we do with continuity family pages, like [[Movie continuity family]] for example. Put SG G1 as the "major continuity" and the others as minor. We need this page because most (if not all) SG pages direct to [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass (franchise)]] and that's just plain wrong when we're dealing with SG Animated or SG Movie. All character pages should remain separate, but a singular SG page explaining everything is more than needed. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 12:54, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::::: On that I absolutely agree. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:11, 14 June 2021 (EDT)

:Oof, no. Now, "Shattered Glass" might could use a page for it as a CONCEPT, sticking to out-of-universe discussion of it and how it's been applied to stuff outside the original series. But... not this. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:19, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
::I mean, sure, we don't have to treat it as "one big continuity", explaining how the concept expanded is enough. I just think that a page simply listing all instances of a new SG-based universe is going to be important as time goes on if the concept keeps getting revisited. ''And'' would make more sense as a linked page than to link SG Movie Optimus to the original SG franchise page when they have no real connection. It's as wrong as if we claimed that "[[Fire Prime]] is an Autobot from the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|RID]] Animated continuity family". Unless we just use the current SG page for these purposes, but I don't see that as the better option. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:10, 14 June 2021 (EDT)
:::Honestly, if the aim of this is to try and clear up minor pages people don't want, surely it would make more sense to merge the Shattered Glass versions with the ones they're explicitly spinning off from - ie merge SG Animated into Animated pages. (I am not suggesting this as an actual idea.) Shattered Glass is just the transformers name for "evil mirror version" which stuck around, and no-one is saying we should merge all Nemesis Primes from every continuity family together because they share conceptual DNA and a name. [[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 19:26, 14 June 2021 (EDT)

== Japanese retail ==

In the process of whipping up a comprehensive list of campaign items (those "buy toy X or Y amount of merchandise and you get this fancy exclusive redeco for free" thingies), the current progress of which can be seen [[User:Nevermore/Sandbox/Campaign item|here]], I've discovered that a lot of the writeups for those individual items are oftentimes based on very rough Google translations, and never fixed.

As a result, I've encountered several instances of the same store being given multiple different names, such as "Eiden", "Ideon" and "Eidon" for Edion (which is the spelling in the company's website URL and official logo), or even worse, "White Peony" and "Shirobotan" (or "Shiro Botan") for Hakubotan (again, the spelling in the company's website URL).

Additionally, there is the occasional bad grammar such as "He was an exclusive in Japan to Edion toy counter" or "Japanese stores like [...] Yamada Denki toy department", sometimes chains like "AEON", "EDION" and "BIC Camera" are spelled in ALLCAPS, and the original writeups made it seem like "Hakuhinkan Toy Park Ginza" and "Shiro Botan Ishinomaki" were both the names of chains with multiple stores, when in fact the stores in question were supposedly specific stores, namely the Hakuhinkan Toy Park main store ''in'' Ginza (Toyko's main shipping district) and the Hakubotan store inside the Aeon mall ''in'' Ishinomaki.

I assume these inconsistencies are the result of different people adding those writeups, but geez, what a mess.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 07:39, 16 June 2021 (EDT)
:AAAAAND it turns out that AEON and JUSCO are one and the same company. JUSCO used to be a subsidiary of the larger AEON orporation, but the JUSCO stores in Japan all changed their name to AEON in 2011.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 08:46, 16 June 2021 (EDT)

==Weapons==
Lately I've been going through (mostly) old Marvel stuff to nail down in-fiction appearances of G1 weapons - see [[Electro-kinetic blaster]], [[Plasma-shell shotgun]], and [[Thermal melter]] for examples. I'm thinking of adding something to the Notes section similar to the "Gadgets and Powers" we do for cartoon episodes but for weapon shout-outs in the comics, perhaps titled "Courtesy of my..." as a more ordered way of keeping track of them. Does anyone have any feelings on that one way or the other? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 08:48, 18 June 2021 (EDT)

== Request ==

[[Talk:Transformers Legends (comic)#Controversy section]]-if somebody's willing to take this up, I'd appreciate it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:03, 22 June 2021 (EDT)

==Separate voice actor categories by series?==
This is just an off-the-cuff idea, but would it be useful create categories for voice actors that appear in a specific TF series? For example, Peter Cullen would be under "TF 1984 voice actors" (or however we'd title it) and "Prime voice actors," David Kaye in "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Animated voice actors" and so on and so forth. I'm not suggesting these would replace the "English voice actors" category, they would just be in addition to it. Now, granted, I don't know if we would/should separate any Japanese (and other languages) voice actors and make separate categories for each language, which would probably get out of hand or be too much. Or we just lump the non-English VAs with the English ones for each series. Again, this is just a random idea I had and thought I would put it out there for consideration. I totally understand if there is no need or desire for such a thing to be implemented. [[User:Turborun|Turborun]] ([[User talk:Turborun|talk]]) 20:59, 1 July 2021 (EDT)

== Hershey's Kisses Treasure Surprise ==

I just stumbled across some of these that I had forgotten that I had received for Christmas. They are tiny figurines of TF characters packed with four Hershey's Kisses in a light blue clamshell container with a cardboard label wrapper (white card, printed with yellow background to the logos and pictures). The packaging says "Collect all five!" I have only two, but each had a different figurine: Optimus Prime and Starscream. The packaging also shows Bumblebee. To my eyes, the Starscream looks like the Classics design, but they are pretty generic (and my eyes ain't that great). Has anybody else seen these? Where should they be documented? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:47, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
:I've seen them around in the occasional CVS as well, actually; the full list is Optimus, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, and Grimlock, and they all seem to be Evergreen/Cyberverse designs. As for where they should go, I'm honestly not sure. Probably a small page of its own similar to Candy Toy, and a quick write-up in each character's toy or merch section, though I'm not sure whether to list them as G1 or Cyberverse. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:21, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
::To my understanding we've been putting anything Evergreen-inspired under G1, except when they're specifically labeled as Cyberverse. So if the packaging only says "Transformers" and not "Cyberverse", I think they belong to G1. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 12:51, 11 July 2021 (EDT)

== Reintegration of Hasbroverse wiki content ==

I think we should consider migrating the content from the IDW Hasbro Wiki back here. The addition of another wiki made sense as a preemptive measure when the shared universe was first announced and we had no idea how long it was going to run, but with just two years of content, there really didn't end up being all that much, and a sizable chunk of the non-TF books and related content live here already, either fully or partially. The number of links out on [[Rom]]'s page, for example, is rather low. Plus it just looks kinda silly when we have issues [[Wrath of Karza issue 1|#1]], [[Wrath of Karza issue 4|#4]], and [[Wrath of Karza issue 5|#5]] of a series on the wiki, but not {{i|Wrath of Karza issue 2|#2}} or {{i|Wrath of Karza issue 3|#3}}. The only major sticking point is all of the pre-Revolution G.I. Joe issues, which would be a *big* ask to include. I'd be curious to get other folks' thoughts on the matter, though. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 01:16, 23 July 2021 (EDT)

I think the Hasbroverse is Transformers centric enough to be moved to TFwiki, with GI Joe possibly being an exception.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 01:26, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
: I’m fine with post-Revolution stuff being incorporated. It still drives me bonkers that the last Visionaries story isn’t covered here despite 95% of that storyline being here. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:00, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::As for pre-Revolution G.I. Joe, we don't include all of Marvel G.I. Joe either despite both the G1 and G2 crossovers. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 05:04, 23 July 2021 (EDT)

:::It sorta makes sense now. I doubt there will be an attempt to make another shared universe anytime soon. I assume there's a semi-reliable Joe wiki we could link to for the pre-Revolution/post Transformers material, if necessary. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 10:06, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::::Sensible. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 13:06, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think the current IDW Hasbroverse wiki could just be converted to solely IDW Joe, since I don't believe the general G.I. Joe wiki is very comprehensive. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:25, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
::::::The general GI Joe wiki is nearly moribund. As an admin there, I invite anyone who wants to to come in and help. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 15:58, 23 July 2021 (EDT)
Can't help with this at all but sounds good, have at it [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 00:25, 25 July 2021 (EDT)
:Echoing others that folding in the remainder of the content between Revolution and Unicron is just sensible and we can cross the Joe bridge when we come to it. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:49, 25 July 2021 (EDT)
I'm gonna leave the discussion open for a few more days to make sure everyone who wants a say can have one, but this seems pretty unanimous so far. That said, while I'm thinking of it, what do we want to do about Jem? The stance on coverage over there is "{{i|Jem and the Holograms (franchise)#Canonicity of Jem in the IDW Hasbro Universe|the characters are canon to Hasbroverse, but the books and stories themselves are not, but we're going to cover them anyway}}". Thus as something that's kinda-sorta-but-not-really related, is that too far outside of scope to carry over, or should those articles be migrated too? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:08, 26 July 2021 (EDT)
:I wouldn't include Jem (or Clue) here. Only media actually in continuity with IDW TF. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:52, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

Well, that's good enough for me. I'm starting a [[User:Cyberlink420/IDWSandbox|central hub]] to keep track of all that pages that need to be moved over or merged with existing pages. Please add to this list as you find pages that need migrating or complete the process. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:37, 6 August 2021 (EDT)
:'''''Further discussion on this topic has moved to [[User talk:Cyberlink420/IDWSandbox|this page]]; please provide your input.''''' -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:57, 6 August 2021 (EDT)

== Pre-''Transformers'' repurposing documentation ==

Hey all, I had been wondering if we should document the repurposings of left over pre-''Transformers'' products in the toy sections instead of the notes sections? Or even both maybe?

I threw together a quick '''[[User:Fanofcoolstuff27/sandbox/Pre-Transformers toys|sandbox]]''' of a couple of ideas I had. The first was just listing them all under the blanket term-header "Pre-''Transformers''" and the other was using their actual franchise of origin as a header (e.g. Diaclone, Micro Change, Microman, etc.).

I just figured that since we document fictional toys of characters that appear in comics etc. under the toy sections, wouldn't it also make sense to add the repurposed Pre-G1 toys? It especially makes sense (to me at least) when a lot of those toys or characters appeared in fiction long before any e-HOBBY, MP or Selects releases of those characters were made, and some of them haven't received official ''Transformers'' updates at all.

Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 00:07, 1 August 2021 (EDT)
:I believe the central debate here will be whether we consider these toys "in-scope." I do think this structure would generally be more user friendly than what we're doing at present if folks do not consider it a bridge too far. With regards to your sandbox, I would say the most sensible title structure would be the bottom one, as there's no sense in playing coy about the names of these toylines, with "Transformers" and "Pre-Transformers" supertitles when applicable. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:08, 4 August 2021 (EDT)
Okay this concept has since been haphazardly implemented by a few different people with little pushback but the the moment I added a pre-TF toy section to one of my own articles it was removed. So let's try this again. Thoughts on including toy writeups for '''specific products''' from Diaclone, Microchange, Microman etc repurposed in Transformers fiction. We are not talking "inspired by the abstract concept of Waruders" or "new toy shares a color scheme with a Diaclone release" here. Some potential discussion points off the dome:

*'''Cons''' - Strictly speaking out of scope. Could be considered a slippery slope to writing up easter eggs from wholly unrelated toylines. Edge cases could get fuzzy.

*'''Pros''' - Generally more reader friendly than the ersatz toy writeups in the Notes section we're already doing. "Pre-Transformers" is a pretty tightly bounded scope based in franchises we already cover in a limited capacity. If implemented properly this discussion should only apply to tens of articles.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 17:36, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:Actual toy sections are more sensible and accessible than shoving the information into note sections. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:48, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

:I think repurposes of that kind should be covered on the toys sections and not clutter the notes. It's useful information that doesn't harm the articles.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:49, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

:Where has it been implemented, "haphazardly" or otherwise, that pre-TF toys would get listed as TF toys? As you said, it is indeed out of scope and I don't see any possible positives to balance that. Not sure I see how it's difficult for our readers to understand a Note about a non-TF toyline. It's all at the same eye level, but calling it a Toy pretends a toy from 1981 is a Transformer and calling it a Note doesn't. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:20, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::[[Spin-Out (G1)]], [[Cordon]], [[Magna Convoy]], [[Azimuth (G1)]], [[Azimuth (COP)]], [[Ephemeris]], and [[Meantime (G1)]] have varying degrees of implementation, to name a few . -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:55, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:::Spin-Out, Cordon, and Magna Convoy are the only actual changes - the only ones re-categorizing Diaclone toys into ''being'' Transformers toys. Meantime, Azimuth, and Ephemeris are correct, matching [[Headcannon]] and [[Skyklik]] and pre-TF [[Treadshot (G1)]]. Can we please not blur that line? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:19, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::::Sounds like we're talking around about three rough categories of examples here:
::::*Full Pre-TF writeup in toy section - Cordon, Spin-Out, Magna Convoy etc
::::*Pre-TF named in toy section - Azimuth, Ephemeris, Meantime etc
::::*Pre-TF info fully contained in notes - Headcannon, Skyclick, Treadshot etc
::::Now to be clear, "pre-TFs have been sporadically added to toy sections" was intended as a value neutral observation and not part of an argument. If this premise has been satisfactorily established let us return to primary point of discussion, namely "Do we want them there or not." -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 20:22, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::......wow wooow, I didn't even notice that Azimuth and Ephemeris have Toy sections, because they aren't formatted like our Toy sections. I am going to take the liberty of renaming those as Notes sections since this proposal was supposed to be about where we put pre-TF data, not about how maybe every single page should look different now. Anyway, uh. No one has ever opposed including relevant pre-TF toy info. We shouldn't include things that aren't TF toys in our lists of things that are TF toys. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:58, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::[[Kuwagatrer]] was like that before it was reformatted into a normal toy section (not by me, for the record). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:23, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
My concern is that we really DON'T want to have a hundred GoBots and three hundred G.I. Joe toys and however many Ponies written up. That said, when a Microman or Diaclone toy without any characterization gets repurposed into a new guy, having info about the toy seems reasonable. Crossovers, no; stealth repurposing of Takara ancestral products, yes. It's relevant and relatively short, and regardless only applies in a very small number of cases. I'm agnostic as to whether it should go in the Toy section or the Notes section. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:22, 7 October 2021 (EDT)
:I will add that these were '''''strictly''''' brought up for left over toys from Takara that weren't merged into the ''Transformers'' rebranding in the 80s and 90s. The way I see it, they aren't all that different to cancelled toys in that they ''could'' have become ''Transformers'' products but ultimately ''didn't'', yet still got fictional appearances anyway, much like BWN Unicron or ''Universe'' (2003) Spacewarp. Besides, who's it hurting? It allows for more wiggle room to flesh out info on the toy itself without the restrictions that a notes section creates. Half of these toys have either been forgotten about or are just unknown to most people and not many places provide info on these toys either, so having that extra info could potentially be helpful for our readers who want to know more.

:Also, quick side note: the Magna Convoy toy AzimuthAcolyte is referring to is his Blue Knight body from the ''Generations Selects'' comic which was a ''Microman'' toy pre-''Transformers''. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:38, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

Diaclone toys aren't Transformers and so they don't go in the Transformers toy section. You want information about them to be more readable? Find a different way to achieve that rather than creating a misleading perception about them by putting them where they don't belong. The first thing in that section should actually be a Transformer. Crazy idea, I know. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 21:00, 7 October 2021 (EDT)

== Creating a foreign name list ==
A complete list page of all so far known foreign names and phrases. Grouped by continuity families, factions and priority. (First Optimus, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream...)
[[User:Kiké Prime|Kiké Prime]] ([[User talk:Kiké Prime|talk]]) 03:50, 6 August 2021 (EDT)
: [[Transformers_Wiki:Policies#We_Hate_Lists]] --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:45, 6 August 2021 (EDT)

== Generations subline toy headers on character pages ==

I believe this has received enough support on Discord and on "[[Talk:Transformers: Generations (toyline)]]", but I am reiterating on the Community Portal for everyone in general. It has become clear that Hasbro considers "''Generations''" a catch-all branding for many unrelated lines. Thusly, though I suggested the fix in the first place, it no longer makes sense for us in a post-''Prime Wars Trilogy'' world to lump together many indented subline headers underneath "''Generations''". Concordantly, a lone ''Generations'' figure such as [[Overlord (G1)#Titans Return|''Titans Return'' Overlord]] can afford to lose the "''Generations''" label in favour of "''Titans Return''" alone. As a proof-of-concept of restoring plain chronological series order, I just overhauled "[[Galvatron (G1)/toys]]". This eliminates the ridiculous placement of the ''Generations Selects'' figure above the ''Kingdom'' figure due to technically being labelled on packaging as ''War for Cybertron Trilogy'' in tandem with the HasLab Unicron pack-in minifigure. In addition, the entry for the ''Legends'' figure is physically nearer to the entry for the contemporary ''Titans Return'' counterpart, and ''Kre-O'' can now naturally come in release order before post-''Thrilling 30'' series. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 04:50, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:That honestly looks so much better. I've gone and done the same with "[[Megatron (G1)/Generations toys]]" so we have an idea on how it would look implemented on split out pages. I've also shifted the G2 Megatron repaints that were originally categorized under "''War for Cybertron: Siege''" and "''War for Cybertron Trilogy''" respectively to the "''Generations Selects''" header with Super Megatron. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 05:21, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
::In addition to simply reorganizing the toy headers, we really ought to be treating "Generations" like we treat "Timelines", only using it for Generations 2010 to Thrilling 30 while everything from Combiner Wars onward should be using their respective line names, including with their own disambigs. There are too many uses of "(Generations)" tags in instances where the much more direct "(CW)", "(TR)", "(POTP)", "(Selects)", "(Siege)", "(Earthrise)", and "(Kingdom)" would be far more concise. Generations stopped being the name of its own line as soon as Combiner Wars took it out of the toy packaging's main title logo and moved it to a tiny little brand logo in the corner.
::Even the tie-in media for Combiner Wars through now never used the "Generations" name. The cartoons were "Transformers: Combiner Wars", "Transformers: Titans Return", "Transformers: Power of the Primes", and "Transformers: War For Cybertron Trilogy". The comic events for Combiner Wars and Titans Return were the same only minus the "Transformers:" part. Even in the TV commercials for each line called them "Transformers: Combiner Wars" and so on, never calling them "Transformers Generations: Combiner Wars" etc.
::These aren't subline imprints, they're their own lines, and ought to be treated as such, right down to having disambiguation tags like "(CW)", "(TR)", "(POTP)", "(Siege)", "(Earthrise)", "(Kingdom)", and "(Selects)". In the cases of FOC and Thrilling 30, those did keep the title as "Transformers: Generations", so those ''were'' subline imprints and should stay as such. It also works to distinguish between Archer Era Generations (a toyline) and Warden Era Generations (an umbrella term/category).
::The current people at Hasbro call these "Generations lines" in the sense that they are each their own line belonging to an umbrella term/category rather than being the same single line that Generations used to be before the changeover of Hasbro teams in 2014-2015. It's basically become how like we would say that Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Japanese Beast Wars, and Car Robots (and arguably Animorphs) are all "Beast Era lines", or like how we'd say Armada, Energon, and Cybertron are all "Unicron Trilogy lines", or like Movie 1, ROTF, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and Bumblebee are all "Movieverse lines". Even things like half of the AOE line and all of Studio Series are officially considered "Generations lines" despite the obvious connotations of "Generations" that most fans do not associate with the Movieverse lines. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:26, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:::I'm fine with changing the section headers and disambigs. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:41, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
::::So I'm taking that we're also changing Movieverse toy sections from "Generations" to "Studio Series". I'm down with that. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 15:11, 30 August 2021 (EDT)
:::::Hmm, you raise an interesting point. How might we implement something like this to, say, [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]], which has multiple different "Generations" headers and sub-headers between one-half of AOE's line, the whole of Studio Series/Movie Edition/Premium Finish, and a portion of Buzzworthy Bumblebee? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:12, 31 August 2021 (EDT)
::::::My solution is, we leave the AOE portion just as it is, as it's already placed separately from the rest of Generations and in the right chronological order, and the "Generations" header is necessary there to separate those toys from the "Robots in Disguise" ones. Studio Series, Movie Edition and Premium Finish should get promoted to their own lines just like CW, TR, POTP etc, and as for Buzzworthy we should just change the "Generations" header to "Studio Series". If we all agree on this, I'd like to help implementing these changes myself. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 01:14, 31 August 2021 (EDT)

==How old should my account be?==
To make captions? [[User:Grimbee|Grimbee]] ([[User talk:Grimbee|talk]])
:It's not about age. Captions are meant to be a reward for users who actually put in the hard work adding proper content to the wiki. And considering you've barely contributed (and most of the things you HAVE posted are jokes, one-sentence articles, or talk page messages telling ''other people'' to do things), doing so would be in poor taste at best. Honestly, if you're only here because you want to add captions, you're better off going somewhere else. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:30, 6 September 2021 (EDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers==
Several on the Discord have voiced assent, so I am bringing the topic here. Our current system for putting disambig headers is unintuitive and overly complex. It creates situations like movie Sentinel who is stuck at (ROTF) thanks to a one line mention, as well as the completely jumbled mess of Aligned, with character pages at (Exodus) or (WFC) or sometimes just (Aligned) etc.

My proposal is we streamline this by just having everybody at the continuity they hail from, not the piece of it. All movie characters at (Movie) and all Unicron Trilogy characters at (Unicron Trilogy) or possibly (UT). An argument I've seen for the current system is that it specifies which part of the family somebody comes from, but the fiction section already shows what parts they are in.

Characters like RID15 Grimlock or Prime Breakdown would be exceptions to this, of course, potentially maybe suite them with the other of their name in that continuity for convenient wiki searching.
[[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 11:15, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:Oh God a thousand times yes. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:19, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
I have advocated for this move before so I vote in favor.
There's also a set precedent with Strongarm (G1) being moved from Strongarm (BWU) for the sake of reader friendliness.
Simplifying the disambigs will reduce the amount of initials and individual disambigs one has to go through when searching a specific character.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:25, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:I'm leaning against. Under the current system everything is handled the same way, with a limited number of (G1 Autobot) type clarifiers, but if you go by continuity family first, there are ''so'' many situations that would need further disambiguation that you'd lose all consistency.
:Just think how many Beast Era characters alone reuse G1 character names - you've instantly got huge swathes of characters who are gonna need further disambiguation. So then you potentially have a situation of "Terrorsaur (G1)" versus "Inferno (BW)", where guys originating in the same thing have got a random assortment of disambig tags. So maybe you make an exception for Beast Era and use (BW) and (BM) by default, but then you're starting to get half way back to the current system...
:I'm not really convinced of an "ease of searching" logic because that's not what disambig tags are for, they're just a technical thing because we can't name multiple pages the same thing. If you're looking for a certain Hound, you can just type "Hound" into the search bar and pick the right one off a nice disambig page list, you don't have to try and guess at what the disambig is. (And while it obviously shouldn't be a main reason for any decisions, the amount of link changes and page moves this would require would be absolutely insane.) [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 11:34, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::I definitely agree with ''not'' throwing BW/BM characters down the G1 hole and then having to build ladders of exceptions back out for every name reuse. If we're going to try this at all, start with something that would need the fewest ad hoc fixes possible. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 12:11, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:Not voting one way or another, but just wanted to say that the (WFC)/(Prime) and (Movie)/(ROTF)/(DOTM)/(etc) distinctions are the ones that have actually bothered me in the past. These are the ones where many prominent characters from later instalments share pages with super minor ones from the previous instalments. Conversely, I don't like the idea of merging (BW) and (BM). But creating merges for (Aligned) and (Movie) would solve a lot of headaches. (And, as a side note, the acronym WFC refers to SO many things now.) —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 11:47, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::Instead of trying to change ''almost everything'' with a few exceptions, why not just simply zero in on making "(Aligned)" the main exceptional change? Since it's probably the one that needs the treatment of this proposal the most. For the characters who share names, I'd say neither would get to use the "(Aligned)" tag out of fairness. Like how we currently have the two BW Silverbolts at disambigs other than "(BW)". The two Sideswipes would remain at "(WFC)" and "(RID)", for instance. Same with the two Grimlocks, the two Kickbacks, the two Bludgeons, etc. Luckily, I think most shared-name cases are either with equally minor characters or equally major characters, the biggest exception I see being the Prime and COP Predakings. Maybe a suite could link those two together (along with all the other Prime and COP Predacons) since while each is their own separate person the implication of each Prime one being cloned from the COP ones suggests a biological connection between each one. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:48, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::: I think the whole system could use serious overhaul but I definitely see the value in taking baby steps. Aligned seems to be the one that has the worst current system and the easiest fix so I'm all for giving it a shot. If it works, great, if not we've learned something. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 12:00, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Thinking more about this, I'm beginning to feel that maybe not ''every'' single-named Aligned character necessarily needs the "(Aligned)" tag. Some do, certainly, like those who have appeared across nearly all of the fiction spanning all of the eras. Optimus, Bumblebee, Megatron, Starscream, Jazz, who were in all/most of the games, books, ''and'' cartoons should get it. But if someone was only in the games, or only in one cartoon, then maaaaaybe they should be considered less of a priority for the "(Aligned)" tag. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:24, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think I would prefer just moving over the video game characters (and that dumb pop-up disambig) to "Prime". That was the main spine to Aligned, and it's weird how we got pedantic over video games and pretended they were "franchises". [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:32, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
In favor of tackling Aligned first, then thinking about other continuity headings later and separately. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 12:44, 17 September 2021 (EDT)

I just ran the numbers, and if we were to roll with this plan, 296 character pages would need to be moved from their current disambig to "(Aligned)", while 48 would be left as is due to someone or something else with the same name in that continuity. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:09, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:I am for this change. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:42, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::I am down for starting with moving Aligned characters. I think this would help tremendously, especially if it expands to G1 and more (almost made me wish it had a better name but what ya gonna do) [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 15:49, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

I agree with using Alligned as the guinea pig for all the reasons stated above. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:21, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

It sounds like a good idea to me in the long run. Aligned always felt messy as it is now, with so many different potential origin points for characters. I imagine a newer fan might find it confusing.[[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 18:07, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

Absolutely ''against'' using "Aligned". It's not an official designation, it's never been an official designation, and while it's entrenched enough that there's little point in expunging all our uses of it, we shouldn't be using it for disambiguations. That said, considering WFOC to be part of the Prime franchise is something I could get behind. As to an overall "disambiguate by continuity family" approach... mmmnnh I'm not dead-set against it, but it's been debated many, many times in the past, and the decision's always come down to "franchise not family". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:54, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:I think I agree with avoiding "Aligned" for disambigs. Folding WFC, FOC, and COP into Prime would solve a lot of people's issues with the Aligned disambigs, I think. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:06, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
::That's treating a symptom and not the disease. Pretending that they're from a different franchise because if you're too strict about which franchises 'count' you get gibberish is a bandaid. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 22:03, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:::I dunno, WFC, Exodus and Prime were all treated as being part of the same initiative back when they first came out, right? "Prime" is the only part of that with actual franchise branding, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider them part of the same thing. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:15, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
::::It's absolutely not unreasonable to consider them all part of the same thing. But that thing is Aligned, not Prime. WFC was absolutely not Prime branded. And that's the whole point of this. IMO. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 23:01, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::While we're focused on using Aligned as a guinea pig, it should be mentioned, however, "aligned" IS just a word. I watched an interview with FJ Desanto and he mentioned Hasbro wishes Cyberverse and WFC to match up since they are part of an aligned continuity, so key moments should match up like Optimus throwing the Allspark. Idk verbatim but I'm sure I can find it, and I'm SUPER sure they used aligned [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 11:34, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Hypothetically, potentially, in an imaginary alternate universe... is it possible to switch everything back? The next live-action movie is going to be about Beasts and so is its tie-in media. If they invent Movie Manterror and Movie Tigatron, then we're going to have to disambig the prior characters as being from G1 and not BW. And, uh, no. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:41, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:BW is not going to be folded back into G1, period. Any BW characters stay (BW), and in that hypothetical scenario, those pages would get moved to Manterror (BW) and Tigatron (BW). -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:46, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::But then we're using a blatant double standard out of sentimental favoritism, on a huge, un-ignorable, wiki-wide scale. And we shouldn't do that. If we're going to keep the distinctiveness of Beast Wars, we should keep that of Victory. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:20, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::The next movie isn't going to be a Beast Wars movie, though. It's going be a "Rise of the Beasts" movie. Any new Manterror or Tigatron introduced in that movie would have a "(ROTB)" tag. If the movie was to be called "Transformers: Beast Wars", ''then'' we'd have a problem. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 14:26, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::The title of the movie isn't the point. Once there is a shared character name, all with that name get disambigs. There is no "default" Inferno. So once we have to disambig everyone effected, either we stay consistent with our Sept2021 system and disambig "old" Tigatron and Manterror as G1, or we work with multiple different systems for the same function on the same wiki based on subjective favoritism mostly shaped by how old people were when they first found the hobby. EDIT: actually it isn't hypothetical, if we're sticking with the Sept2021 system then Quickstrike (BW) and Depth Charge (BW) must now be disambigged as G1, or we're saying after about 20 hours that we're already largely ignoring our new system but still keeping it around to create confusion. Welcome to Hell. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:32, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Huh? Isn't the Beast Era as a whole already treated as a special case, an umbrella thing, in the same vein as say, "Unicron Trilogy"? I know on a strict continuity sense it's all quote unquote Primax, but the point of this move is a "let's not be nerds about this" thing. AOE Lockdown being at Lockdown (ROTF) is kinda weird; that's what this is about. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:13, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::Beast Era is definitely a special case, otherwise we would have BW Megatron on a different page than G1 Megatron. (And don't say 'but they met each other' because Transformers meet other versions of themselves all the time.) There are also things like [[Strongarm (G1)]] and I do note that we don't have [[Trypticon (G1)]] under [[Trypticon (Scramble City)]] even though he appeared there before anywhere else. We make exceptions all the time when it makes sense to do so. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 15:27, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::BW and BM and their Japanese spinoffs are within the G1 continuity family, no more or less than Masterforce is within G1, no more or less than AOE and ROTF are both within Movie. Unicron Trilogy is its own continuity family, like Movie and G1; it is a higher category than Beast Era. I don't think we've ever made a policy of "treating the Beast Era as a special case" to the degree that we dissolve some major franchises of origin but not others. That doesn't make it easier, because it creates ''dozens to hundreds'' of exceptions that everybody has to actively remember forever, and if someone ever asks why we're doing it, the answer is just "We like the cartoon from 1999 better than the cartoon from 2003, and ''make sure you remember that'', maybe tie a rubber band around your finger or make up a little rhyme to help you." '''We should really turn back, gang'''. We just passed Obsidian (G1), Blastcharge (G1), Hamerstrike (G1), Strika (G1), Tankor (G1)....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:35, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Okay, so, I was tentatively in favour of the change to the WFC/FOC disambigs on the basis of them being games rather than franchises, but I had forgotten that there were Generations (etc) toys released with that branding. I am very much against disambiguating based on continuity, and ''especially'' using an unofficial name like Aligned for that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

==Simplifying Japanese toyline disambigs==
Related tangent—an idea I had was to simplify (Headmasters), (Masterforce), (Victory), and (Zone) to just (G1), with obvious exceptions like the Zone faction-switch Microtransformers (and I guess Ricochet since there's already a G1 Ricochet <s>maybe we should move that to Stepper</s>). The same would apply for (BWII) and (BWN) to (BW). Both eras were functionally sold under the general G1 and BW lines by Takara, after all.

And the various (SL), (Adventure), (LOTM), etc disambigs would default to their Hasbro counterpart lines. This thing is being more pedantic than we need to. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:04, 17 September 2021 (EDT)

[[User:Saix/sandbox|Listing of pages with Japanese disambigs.]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:49, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:As someone who has been slowly going through and changing all of our JG1 toy headers to the accurate F!SRLT ones, I am all for this simplification. [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:41, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
::Likewise. Much more straightforward for the casual reader. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:53, 17 September 2021 (EDT)
:https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Star_Saber_(disambiguation)
:So under the proposed system, would it be the main page saying "Star Saber (G1)", nothing changed further? Or would that disambig page now additionally say "''G1'' Star Saber" and "Star Saber, the Supreme Commander from G1"? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:59, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
::Either way is fine to me. I'm not that invested in disambiguation wording. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:26, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:This is an obviously good idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 17:25, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
This is definitely a change for the better.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 17:29, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:This is a pretty straightforward extension of the toy section streamlining initiative already underway. I echo others that this would absolutely be a win for reader accessibility. No sense hairsplitting by what is essentially country of origin. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:19, 18 September 2021 (EDT)
:I'm in favour of this, yeah, assuming "if there's a preexisting G1 character of the same name, we keep the JG1 subline disambig". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:49, 18 September 2021 (EDT)

i'm glad i looked away for exactly two days and we've decided to just start recategorizing the entire damn wiki under continuity family rather than franchise of origin --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:24, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:goddamn we deliberated longer on splitting out non-G1 versions of the magnaboss guys... and this was kind of a major-ass overhaul --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:29, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
::As I said, I'm in favour of this change — rooted in "Japan treated all the various lines as part of the G1/BW franchises", not "reorganising based on continuity family" — but, yeah, it's been THREE DAYS. We absolutely can't treat "well there wasn't any disagreement" as basis to make these kinds of sweeping changes so quickly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:18, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
While I am in favor of what's been done, it seems to highlight the problem I have with us using Discord. The presentation of this proposal here seemed to me to imply that the discussion on Discord had favored it and it was pretty much good to go. I assumed that Walky and others who had previously opposed such moves had weighed in there. I really don't agree with the idea of discussions that affect the wiki being held off site. It's too "secret cabal" for me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:50, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:THANK YOU. The Discordification of the wiki is one of the worst things to ever happen to it. Every major change made here should be based on a discussion that is held ''here,'' with a transparent and permanent record of it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:55, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::I made this argument back when major decisions were being made on the Allspark wiki thread. Once the Discord was launched, and I was told major decisions would not be made on another webpage but an entirely different platform I would have to download in order to follow, I chose to quit contributing for a year. I agree that it smells of "secret cabal". Decisions about wiki content and policies should be made on the wiki, visible to everyone. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:04, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Policy on the Discord has always been that regardless of any discussion there, all major changes should be brought up and discussed here on the talk pages to have everything on record and avoid this very scenario. That's why this thread even exists. The recent moves are not "secret cabal", it's one person rushing into things before due process had a chance to run its course. (And Thylacine and Xaaron, considering I've seen you both post in the AllSpark thread, another source for off-site wiki discussion that now no longer has a record thereof, I don't think you have room to criticize the "Discordization" of the wiki. If you choose to participate in off-site discussion on one site but think another is over the line, that's exclusively on you.) -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:25, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I participated in the AllSpark wiki thread because it was often necessary to be involved ''there'' about decisions ''here'', while also advocating that that shouldn't be the case at the same time. I can't point to the occasional rant I had about it on Allspark anymore after their attack, but you can see here in Archive65, "Other versions of character" where I complain about people announcing major changes on Allspark instead of the Community Portal. And, like Thy said, at least I could find the Allspark discussions. I tried to learn Discord during the Allspark/Pete thing, and I found it impossible to find/follow a conversation that was only hours old at the time. So, once the process of off-site discussions was both something I disagreed with AND something I couldn't follow even if I tried, I stopped being involved in the site community. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 12:18, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::There was never a major change made based on the AS thread, there ''certainly'' wasn't the pervasive attitude of "Why are you reverting such-and-such, this was already worked out on the Discord" for the AS thread, and also at least the AS thread was in the same format as our wiki pages so you could go back and quickly follow the sequence of a threaded discussion from years ago if you'd wanted to. Stuff on Discord scrolls away if you're not looking and unless someone specifically searches for it they'd never even see the discussion at all. You are correct that the AS thread now has no record - but that is a bug, not a feature, as it was erased along with the entire Allspark board, and I don't expect anyone will try to make a new one, precisely because such vulnerabilities are now obvious. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:47, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Also, Discord doesn't require you to download anything; you can [https://discord.com/ use the browser-based version] just fine. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:36, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I think Discord is a fine place to brainstorm, drum up support for an idea, figure out what some of the pros and cons are of any given proposal. But enthusiastic support for an idea on Discord should not be taken as a reason to bypass discussion here. I'm enthusiastically in favor of this change and even I think it was implemented too quickly. Discord people (of whom I'm one), voicing your support and reasoning there is no substitute for voicing it here. But I'd like to push back on the notion that there's anything secret about it, it's a very open forum and can be fantastic for hashing out half-formed thoughts without having to take such a black-and-white stand on every issue. I think Saix just jumped the gun. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:49, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Just chiming in as one of the Discord mods to say that we have been trying our best to direct important changes here. I think the instantaneous nature of the Discord makes it easy to end up in a rush over things. However, I think the "live" nature of it has genuinely helped reduce the number of heated arguments like those that happen on talkpages/threads, because miscommunications seem to happen less often and can be cleared up faster; it's a shame that it's introduced problems of its own. The intent absolutely isn't to obfuscate! Speaking historically, the reason the wiki Discord was made was to try and merge two groups of editors—those posting in the Allspark thread, and those posting in the Allspark Discord—which, honestly, was a status quo that much more closely (if inadvertently) resembled a secret cabal. The current setup is broadly an improvement over that; it's not perfect, but hopefully people can get used to the "brainstorm there, table here" approach we've been trying to push and we'll see less of these problems over time, rather than more. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:40, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::When it comes to off-site discussions, we have always been directed by both the admins of the wiki and the moderators of the Discord server to bring our topics up either here or on the respective talk pages. The input here always gets taken as the "true" vote no matter what, whereas most discussions on Discord are as Jim and Wads have said, just throwing around ideas and brainstorming, which can be very beneficial for filtering out the "dumb" and/or half-formed ideas before presenting the well-thought out ones here. That being said, Saix's actions yesterday should not be taken as the collective work of any off-site discussions. Most of us weren't even aware that he had already started moving stuff until Walky brought up his concerns here after the fact. But yeah, it seems that the Discord's instantaneous real-time reply system has made a few of us forget that talk page and portal discussions aren't as fast and that some users aren't around every hour of every day, leaving us with moments where things get changed a little ''too'' hastily before everyone has had a chance to see it or respond to it. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 12:53, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::We should probably move all of the talk about off-site discussion to a different header, as it seems we've gone overboard with it. --[[User:DDog|DDog]] ([[User talk:DDog|talk]]) 12:59, 20 September 2021 (EDT)

Okay, just to make things very clear and stop discussions getting mixed up: '''this section is about the proposal to use (G1) disambigs for late-JG1 and (BW) disambigs for BWII/BWN, ''because they are considered the same franchise in Japan'''''. BWII toys were sold under ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers'', Victory was sold under ''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers''. This has nothing to do with the "disambiguate by continuity family" proposal, which is in the section ''above'' this one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:59, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:Also moving Japanese franchise disambigs to their American counterparts (e.g. LOTM to Armada, Adventure to RID2015, etc.), except in instances where two characters with the same name exist. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:17, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::I have reinserted those remarks where they belonged. The "disambig by continuity instead of by franchise because Japan" is no longer a "proposal," ''it has already happened,'' and I think it's a mistake that rather seriously breaks the wiki which is why I asked several times for it to be undone, at least until people could vote on it in the light of day. I do not see "because Japan" as a worthwhile reason. Once we create "Overlord (G1)," there is no internally consistent reason to have a "Quickstrike (BW)." Someone born in 2003 who never heard of ''any'' Transformers pre-Animated will have no idea why we are breaking up certain series or characters, and for them to get it they'll have to learn a lot of background about Transformers ''before they can start actually learning about Transformers.'' Upthread I saw a bunch of people say the equivalent of "Obviously this is a great idea!", with none of them explaining exactly what was so great about it. Would anyone care to start? Preferably after this radical change has been reversed, so people can decide in good faith whether or not it's good instead of feeling like they have to come to terms with a diktat that was forced on them? Thanks. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Moving back because you're continuing to miss the point. Moving late JG1 to G1 and BWII/Neo to BW isn't being done by continuity family, it's because they were being sold as G1/BW toys. They're not franchises, they're sublines. By the same token, if we have Overlord (Masterforce), we should move Darksteel (Prime) to Darksteel (Beast Hunters). The treatment of JG1 and JBW as full franchises in place of sublines is rooted in misunderstanding from over a decade ago, and the passage of time has allowed us to gain a better understanding of what these lines actually were. Hence why JG1's and JBW's toyline pages were merged back into their parent toyline pages ''a year ago''. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:02, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Also going to point out that Overlord was at Overlord (G1) ''until'' 2009. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::If toy packaging and instructions support "flattening" the G1s and BWs into G1 and BW, then, okay, fine. That IS how we do things. That is the letter of our law. What sent off my alarm bells is the flattening, which felt very "we're changing fundamentally how we're organizing things," away from franchise-of-origin, and also the doing it in two days. I actually didn't see the ACTUAL "let's do this by continuity family" discussion one subheader above until later! Which I guess is alarm bells vindicated, I dunno. And that's a whole other thing. But: It's just, like, if you're going to move literally hundreds of pages... give it more than two days. Give me a heads up, even. (Though I really have a feeling Saix wanted to get this done before I found out. It's a feeling.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 22:25, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::Entirely fair. I will say that I think that, while the pages ''shouldn't'' have been moved to begin with, I don't think we should go through the huge ordeal of moving them back until we ''have'' come to an agreement on this just to prevent a repeated back-and-forth mass-page-move. (Of course, if people agree that the pages should be at (Masterforce) et al, absolutely move them back.) --10:05, 21 September 2021 (EDT)
::::JG1 and JBW series are repeatedly listed as franchises all over this wiki, including on the [[Franchise]] page and on their own pages. If the argument is "the instructions say Japanese-G1-font-then-Victory, so it's just a subline of G1 and not its own thing," then we are still very much hurled into the same problem I've been talking about. The late-G1 "Thunderclash windshield" logo is used on G2 and BW, so Blackarachnia is every bit as G1 as is Deathsaurus. Or are we basing this on ad hoc judgments of how prominent the older logo is, whether it's on the top or the bottom or bigger or smaller or what color they use? I also notice that [[Return of Convoy]] was ''not'' re-disambigged into G1, even though the packaging for [[Grandus (ROC)]] has the same "Fight! etc" livery and proportions as the other JG1 lines. If next week two people started to agitate for BW to get re-tagged as G1 because of the instruction font precedent, our only argument against that would be "No, we like BW too much for that" (but don't worry, we wouldn't be expected to reclassify Beast Machines, because that didn't use the late-G1 font. So Obsidian stays within Beasts, but Blackarachnia doesn't, it's easy to remember, surely friendly to new users....) This was not carefully reasoned through, and anything done by an automated script can be undone the same way. By rights people should have to make a tight and comprehensive argument both of why this change would improve the wiki and why it definitely won't reclassify other long-recognized franchises into mere sublines of G1 that now just get called G1.

::::(EDIT - moving the Overlord/Darksteel point to the end. It seems nearly all of the TF:Prime:Beast Hunters line were clearly designated as such ''except'' for Darksteel and some other Target dudes who were just TF:Beast Hunters. Really don't think people want to argue for dissolving a half-dozen long-recognized franchises because of that. That is literally the opposite of what "exception" means.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:04, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::For what it's worth, ''Return of Convoy'' was the only real line to branch out from the JG1 toyline, even if just a little. Everything before that was ''strictly'' F!SRLT, with sub-branding used for specific cases (e.g. ''The Headmasters'' for Headmaster characters, including the ones from the Masterforce cartoon, ''Targetmaster'' was used for Targetmaster characters, ''Seacons'' for the Seacons, etc, etc). ''Scramble City'' was the only exception to this, with it being used for Metroplex, Trypticon, Ultra Magnus and Galvatron, instead of just the combiners. ''Super-God Masterforce'', ''Victory'' and ''Zone'' were titles that were never used in the toyline at all. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:24, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::I second Thylacine's proposal to include the ROC guys in the move to G1. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 10:26, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, I wasn't against a move for the ROC guys to G1, just pointing out the weird branding that was JG1. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 10:29, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::nobody actually do that for at least 20 seconds --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:43, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::I didn't move the ROC guys because I forgot about them, not because of any particular reasoning. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:17, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::Thank you for making that clear. So we are left without the sub-brand / logo issue altogether, back at square one. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 12:57, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::Are we? If the toylines don't have any mention of Masterforce, Victory, Zone et al, that feels like strong evidence for those franchises being part of G1 in Japan, exactly like Beast Hunters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your main point of objection is "well, we've always done it like this"... but that was because Western fandom was previously ''unaware'' that JG1 was all one large toyline. I don't think the idea is to change the disambigs while changing nothing else about our coverage; we should probably update ''all'' of the way we cover these sub-series rather than treating them as their own full franchises like we currently do. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:35, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::''Popping in out of sequence to say, for future readers, that here is where someone should have doublechecked the assertions that "the toylines don't mention Masterforce, Victory, etc.," and "the toyline only says F!SRLT plus the gimmick subline like Targetmasters." Because it turns out, the Masterforce, Victory, and Zone boxes '''totally do''' say Masterforce, Victory, and Zone on them. I regret that this was not done until several days later.'' --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:06, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

::::::::::::Because the ROC thing undermines that. If the other JG1 lines have no unique logos specifically on the boxes and instructions, and that's why they were merged into one big thing, then we've now been told several times that ROC does have those but the person who made the merge only left them out of the merge purely by accident and several pro-mergers are saying ROC should also be merged now. It looks like there isn't clear agreement on what the grounds for inclusion are. I am not against changing "what we've always done" as a matter of pure principle, but treating all of those series the way we treat subline imprints pretty radically changes the meaning of that concept. There are no other sublines (i.e. Powerlinx Battles, Primus Unleashed) that have completely separate storylines, settings, and casts. We'd surely have to keep their write-ups separate anyway, just as we do with the many many Optimus Primes that Hasbro considers to be all the same guy. What is the benefit of the change, to us and our readers? And if we ''are'' including ROC with the logo that was supposedly of equal importance that maybe it shouldn't be included but nevermind, why doesn't this suck in G2 and BW? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 14:55, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I actually think that it's debatable whether ROC should be included, same as with Operation Combination. I will note that G2 is "Transformers: G-2" and BW is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers"; neither has the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" branding that was given to the entire rest of JG1, which firmly delineates them as separate from the original line. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:06, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Should have been clearer: my concern is about G2/BW disambigs being tipped into USG1, which would become in-bounds if the supposedly important distinct-toy-branding-of-ROC-keeping-it-out-of-JG1 was decided not to matter anymore. If we're making these judgments based on the level of labeling that makes something a distinct franchise, we need to be consistent. Can we at least agree on that guardrail? I'm still not embracing it - we all know Masterforce et al have their own very distinct logos that we would continue to display - but at least can understand it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:29, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Note that several Return of Convoy Autobot Micromasters also share the same names as their G1 Decepticon Micromaster counterparts, so many of those won't be receiving the "(G1)" tag anyway. But nonetheless, all of those toys were still sold under the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" toyline logo. The secondary "Return of Convoy" logo they had was no different that the other secondary logos had by previous FSRLTF toys, such as "Scramble City", "The Headmasters", "Targetmaster", and "Godmaster". Thy, it really seems you're only harping on this because you can't grasp the idea that one toyline had five different cartoons in Japan (and another single toyline later had four different cartoons), when the idea of one show per cartoon has only been a thing in Hasbro's markets; a concept that Japan was never beholden to. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:14, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Specifically, the only ROC characters that would be moved are Sky Garry and Grandus. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:34, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::By my read - and please tell me if I got this wrong - Fanofcoolstuff says ROC is distinctive enough that it wouldn't be merged into G1, Riptide says it's a real debate and probably shouldn't merge, Saix said it would have been merged but got left out by accident, and Sabrblade says it's not so distinct after all and "nonetheless" will at least partially merge. And that was all in one day. To be very clear, I don't care about ROC. This is probably the longest conversation about ROC in world history. But since a whole shitton of stuff just got G1-ified, whatever can prevent that suddenly got very important! My point all along has been that if having a distinct-ish logo and storyline can still see a series get disambig merged one level up, then G2 and BW can be disambigged as G1 and we don't really have anything stopping that from happening except personal favoritism. Someone could ask next week "why NOT re-disambig G2 as G1?" and just from today's conversation I really do not see how we would have an answer. What, is the G2 toyline or cartoon more distinct from G1 than Victory was? We need a clear consistent disambig system that we can explain to newcomers under which Victory is G1 now and Beast Wars Neo is BW now but G2 and BW cannot be turned into G1 now. Do we have that system now? If so, what is it based on? If you think it's at all self-evident, it isn't. Maybe I ''can't'' grasp it - but if that's the case, I am not so special that I would expect to be the only one. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:16, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::This is all a fair point, and I am sincerely glad for the dissenting opinion! I guess the question is "at what point does the Generation 1 "franchise" stop being a franchise"? In Japan, at least, I would argue that the answer to that question is "when they stopped using Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers"; that seems like the clearest delineation, given that that puts it at the same place we consider to be the dividing line in the US (between the Micromasters and G2). If we consider FSRLTF to be the Japanese name for the G1 franchise, just like "Micron Legend" is to Armada and "Adventure" is to RID15, then there's a clear divider that means G2 and BW can't be considered part of it. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:39, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::: I freely admit that I wasn't entirely convinced at first, but after considering the issue for a few days I've ultimately decided that this consolidation is the right move. When the wiki was still taking shape in the late 2000s, individual franchise components were still very insular--chopped up, sequestered away, and written under the assumption that characters and concepts would likely never be revisited in any meaningful way, or backported into American ''Transformers'' culture. Look at [[Deathsaurus (G1)|Deathsaurus]]'s article for a good example of this: not just ''Victory'', but also ''Zone'', Dreamwave, ''Timelines'', ''Wings Universe'', two IDW universes, and even a random cameo in the original Marvel timeline thanks to TF '84. It seems weird to disambiguate by his franchise of origin when almost 64% of the headers in his page have nothing to do with ''Victory'', or even Japanese G1 at all! We don't, for instance, disambiguate [[Windblade (G1)]] by "Windblade (IDW)", even though here's arguably ''more'' instance to do so, particularly when it comes to the hordes of continuity-transplanted characters who keep showing up in stuff like IDW2 and the crossover comics.
::::::::::::::::::: We all know that Hasbro and its licensees don't view ''Transformers'' canon and continuity the same way we do, and this has led to an increasing amount of bleed between different stories--between stuff like IDW's ongoing comic stories freely pulling from whatever catches their fancy, and FunPub stuff like Beast Wars Uprising and AVP, I think that this debate ''should'' probably go beyond the intricacies of packaging minutiae... but, well, now I feel like I'm conflating these two separate proposals together, so for the time being I think that reorganizing the JG1 characters like this is a good thing.[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:49, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::: It's also worth noting that the [[List of Japanese ID numbers#Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers|ID numbers]] for the toys keep counting up all the way through Return of Convoy, furthering the argument that these are all part of one larger toyline. [[List of Japanese ID numbers#Beast Wars|Same with Beast Wars]]. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Thy, you keep confusing "G1" the toyline (known in Japan as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers") with "G1" the continuity family. G2 and BW are part of the latter, yes, but both are ''not'' part of the former. And "Return of Convoy" is basically a [[subline imprint]], like what "The Unicron Battles" was for Armada. It's the same toyline with just an extra logo. And as Cyberlink says above, it continues the same ID numbering system as the rest of the FSRLTF line. G2 and BW were both separate toylines from G1 in both Japan and in Hasbro's markets. For Japan, neither were "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: G-2" or "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars", they were just "Transformers: G-2" and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" (losing both the "Fight!" and "Robot" parts of the FSRLTF title, even). And each even used a separate ID numbering system from that of FSRLTF. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:45, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
::I just want to make it clear AGAIN that I was never against the move of (ROC) to (G1). I was just simply pointing out how the packaging is ''slightly'' different. I apologize if I made that unclear. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:28, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
I want to apologize for igniting this whole thing. My Sunday boredom and rush to get things done got the best of me, and I'm sorry. If it's decided to revert my moves, I'm fully willing to undo all of my edits, when I can get the time. (Sorry for the late reply, I'm very busy with irl stuff for this week and the next.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:22, 21 September 2021 (EDT)
::I realize most of the conversation was around the JG1 disambig, but I really don't like the suggestion to collapse the other Japanese line disambigs into the US lines. Using Adventure as an example, Cosmos was released in Adventure — he's not an RiD character, having no presence in the RiD version of the line. I know we tend to lean on the US version of things as the source of truth, but this to me feels like it implies something that isn't true. [[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 20:41, 22 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Maybe that's the case, but to most users (MD), (SL) and such are going to not mean anything. ''Broadly'' speaking, the "[[Heavy Metal (Energon)]]" is accurate in that the character came from the Japanese counterpart to the Energon line; when you open the page itself it'll explain the specifics of the character's origin more clearly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 13:39, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
:It's been discovered that, despite the ID numbers restarting, none of the Operation Combination toys actually have an "Operation Combination" logo, just the standard "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo used by every phase of the line before it. And that the Return of Convoy toys all still have the same "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo while the secondary "Return of Convoy" logo does not have its own separate "Transformers" part, meaning that that logo is not "Transformers: Return of Convoy" but simply "Return of Convoy". Though, none of the ROC Micromasters can be moved to G1 since that tag is already used by their Hasbro Decepticon counterparts, so it would just be Grandus and Sky Garry. Out of all the Operation Combination toys, only six of them currently use the "(OC)" tag: Sandstorm, Falcon, Circuit, Discharge, Glide, and Windy. And of those six, only the latter three would be moved to "(G1)" since the former three share names with other G1 characters. And I really can't see anyone raising a fuss over Discharge, Glide, and Windy using the "(G1)" tag. Also, Scrash uses "(OC)" since there is an Animated Scrash, but again, no sane person would complain about him becoming "Scrash (G1)". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:14, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::On that note, as part of this, I think we should consider merging the ROC Micromasters back into their Hasbro counterparts' pages, as they have no independent fiction and are 100% identical to the Hasbro releases save for the faction symbol on their boxes. Nothing says we can't chalk this up to "it's the same guy but they're an Autobot in JG1". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:39, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Feels quite sensible. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 14:17, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Also we should move all the JG1 series to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Whatever", since they all include it as part of the title and we're currently ''very'' inconsistent in its usage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:21, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::So just to be absolutely clear about what we've determined here, One: The graphic we had listed as the Return of Convoy logo is in truth a modifier on the classic F!SRLT logo in the style of the rest of JG1; Two: ''the original, solo Fight! Super Lifeform Transformer logo continues to appear on toy packaging through Return of Convoy and Operation Combination.'' Operation Combination is the last line where this occurs and can be considered the definitive end of the original F!SRLT branding. Hope this helps clear things up. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:57, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:::It would make since to consider everything before G2; G1. -[[User:DDog|DDog]] ([[User talk:DDog|talk]]) 14:37, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
::::I have made some new discoveries on the matter. The FSRLTF, 2010, and Victory cartoons all used the FSRL text in their title logos, while The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Zone do not. Meanwhile, in the next-episode previews for The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory, all three omit the FSRL text from their series names in the narration, only calling themselves "Transformers: The Headmasters", "Transformers: Chojin Masterforce", and "Transformers: Victory". Likewise, Zone does not have any FSRL text in either its title logo or its theme song lyrics (just "Transformers: Zone"), but its DVD bonus features do have FSRL text added to the Zone logo. Meanwhile, the Japanese dub of BW refers to itself as "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" in both its title logo and theme song lyrics, but just "Beast Wars" in its next-episode previews. BWII's logo reads "Beast Wars II: Super Lifeform Transformers", but its next-episode previews consistently call it "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars II". Likewise, Neo is called "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo" in both its title logo and next-episode previews. Metals is "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Metals" in its title logo, but just "Beast Wars Metals" in the next-episode previews. The first Metals movie is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers - Metals" in its logo, but the characters shout "Beast Wars: Metals". Likewise, the second Metals movie is "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers - Metals - Convoy Daihenshin!" in its logo, but the characters shout "Beast Wars: Metals - Convoy Daihenshin!" And finally, Returns is "Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Returns" in its logo while the characters just say "Beast Wars Returns". So, while logos vary, the only shows to actually speak either the FSRL or SRL text are just BWII and Neo (and technically BW but only in its theme song). Meaning that while the franchises are "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" (nicknamed "Transformers" for short) and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" (nicknamed "Beast Wars" for short), not all of these shows are necessarily beholden to using the full titles of each franchise along with each respective subheading. So we needn't necessarily have to move Transformers: The Headmasters et al to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: The Headmasters" et al. If anything, I'd suggest just leaving out the FSRL text from every JG1 series after 2010, since none of them used it to refer to themselves verbally. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:09, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
Did no one look at the back of these JG1/JBW boxes? Because the murals on the back of Masterforce, Victory, and Zone boxes plainly do have the unique Masterforce, Victory, and Zone franchise logos. The stuff repeatedly said to not be on toy product actually is very much there. So, uhhh....--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:16, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6Qu8NMnPbX0/U9FNiQT6Z3I/AAAAAAAADxs/c1n1Srl37po/s1600/20140706_125112.jpg
https://tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/1659/
:The back of Overlord's box says Masterforce in Japanese AND English! --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:31, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::That...really doesn't change the fact that the original F!SRLFT logo is still very much front and center on the box. Nor the continued ID numbers between all the lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:15, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
:::It changes the assertion made about 6 times by multiple merge advocates - and in the "Summary and Vote" section below until it was just struck out a second ago - that there wasn't any unique branding on the toy product and we've only been treating the toylines as separate because of old assumptions and inertia. I will grant that the ID numbers are a piece of evidence in favor of a merge, but it now looks like that's the only one left. Are we going to make a change this big over a checklist? When this merge was already made, was it made based on believing something that isn't true? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::::Not really. Honestly, it doesn't change much; seems like it's no different a case than 2010, which had the normal logo on the front and the 2010 logo on the back. And we acknowledge that as a subline of G1 while still giving it a franchise page; should the vote pass, the other series would be treated exactly the same. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:35, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

:::: I'm comfortable with my vote. I don't think a tiny logo on the back smaller than the team logo is that big a deal. If anything it reinforces the idea of how messy and subjective what constitutes a franchise is. Maybe others might feel differently and change their vote. We'll see.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 16:38, 25 September 2021 (EDT)

:::: I absolutely believe that a logo on the ''back'' of the toy packaging does not outrank the main logo on the front. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:55, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Thinking more about this, the notion of the "media logos" (as I'll call them) being on the back of the boxes doesn't strike me as being all that different from when the original 2010-2011 Transformers: Generations line had secondary "Transformers: War for Cybertron" media logos on its packaging for the figures based on the designs from that video game. In those cases, the media logo was there to say "Hey, the specific Generations figures bearing this second logo represent characters that are also featured in the video game that this other logo is advertising." But it did ''not'' mean that the toys featuring that logo were suddenly part of a toyline named "Transformers: War For Cybertron" or even "Transformers: Generations - War For Cybertron". It just meant that certain toys sold in the "Transformers: Generations" toyline represented characters featured in a contemporary video game called "Transformers: War For Cybertron". Likewise, the media logos on the back of the FSRLTF toys indicated which FSRLTF toys were affiliated with which cartoon and manga of each media logo belonged to. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:47, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
::::It's the same kind of thing we've most recently seen in the Cyberverse toyline. There the main franchise named remained "Cyberverse", with added imprints like "Bumblebee: Cyberverse Adventures" or "Dinobot Adventures". The additional logos alongside F!SRLT just denote the subline of that year, like the aforementioned Cyberverse or the three lines within the War for Cybertron Trilogy franchise. --[[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 01:30, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::More findings. I just did a binge-watching of almost every Japanese G1 toy commercial that we have covered in our [[Commercial/Japan]] article, and have observed that not every year's commercials actually used the secondary logos for each series. The 1985 and 1986 commercials all use just the standard FSRLTF logo, with the 1986 commercials also using the Scramble City logo for the specific toys that logo pertains to. By 1987, the FSRLTF logo just becomes a standard "Transformers" logo without the FSRL text, with only one 1987 commercial actually using The Headmasters logo (that being the specific Headmasters toy commercial, but not the Fort Max and Scorponok commercial), and none of the 1988 ones using the Masterforce logo. 1989 and 1990, however, DO use the Victory and Zone logos, respectively, while in 1991, only the Sky Garry and Grandus commercials use the Return of Convoy logo while the Star Convoy (ironically) and Sixliner ones do not. The 1992 Sixtrain commercial, meanwhile, goes back to only using the "Transformers" logo. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 09:20, 26 September 2021 (EDT)

Is there a reason why Operation Combination is not included in our own very long FSLRT toyline page, when our OC toyline page says it's part of FSLRT?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fight!_Super_Robot_Lifeform_Transformers_(toyline)
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fight!_Super_Robot_Lifeform_Transformers:_Operation_Combination_(toyline)
For the record, here are OC boxes front and back: http://heroicdecepticon.blogspot.com/2012/02/transformers-operation-combination-tf.html?m=1
--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:23, 2 October 2021 (EDT)
:It's funny you mention this as a discussion was brought up earlier lol. I think it is safe to fold into the JG1 page. It pretty much follows the other sublines, with only the ID numbers setting it apart from the rest. We have reason to believe that it was probably forgotten about during the merge of the other pages a few years ago. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 08:51, 2 October 2021 (EDT)
::It's leftover from before the big FSRLTF page was compiled together. It was initially left out because its renumbered ID system confused us into thinking it was a separate thing. But the recent discovery that its toy packaging never used any other logo has reopened talk of reincorporating it. Thy, if there are still things related to these talks that are still unchanged right now, it doesn't mean we're deliberately leaving them alone. It means that nothing has been done about them '''''yet''''' as these talks and votes are still ongoing. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 10:37, 2 October 2021 (EDT)

===Summary of discussion and vote===
So I'm going to summarise all the information as clearly as I can for everyone to vote on. For clarity I will be referring to the Japanese G1 franchise as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" to distinguish it from "Generation 1" as a more general concept.

'''The "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" toyline is unambiguously a single, cohesive toyline.''' Rather than being split into separate lines for each cartoon, it uses specific brandings for different subgroups like Headmasters and Godmasters, akin to the Micro Transformers logo on G1 Micromaster toys. <s>The one exception to this is Return of Convoy, which has its own co-branded logo, but the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" logo is still on the packaging regardless.</s> CLARIFICATION: '''The series logos ''are'' on the packaging, but only on the back, with the exception of Return of Convoy.''' The toy numbering remains consistent up through Return of Convoy before being reset for Operation Combination, but even then the toy packaging didn't actually carry any Operation Combination logos.

Regarding tie-in media, '''the cartoons are packaged individually with their own titles''', though it's worth noting that this also applies to "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010" (G1 season 3). The manga were also given their individual series' branding (apart from 2010 and Return of Convoy), but were collected as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: The Comics". While the in-series Headmasters and Masterforce title cards don't use "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform", supplementary material for the cartoons does.

If the "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" title is treated as the distinguishing factor, '''there is no risk of G2 or Beast Wars also being subsumed.''' Generation 2 was sold in Japan as "Transformers: G-2", while Beast Wars was "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers".

Lastly, '''all of this also applies to "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers"'''. Just replace "Victory" and "Masterforce" with "BWII" and "Neo", "2010" with "Metals", and "G-2" with "Car Robots".

With all this taken into account, there seem to be two possible ways to take this:

* '''Keep viewing each of these brandings as their own full-fledged franchise.''' While the toyline does not carry any franchise branding, it can be covered as a single toyline covering multiple franchises; the fact that each year's branding was used across multiple pieces of fiction means it should be treated as the mark of a full franchise.
* '''Treat "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" and "Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers" as each being a single franchise, with the individual yearly brandings as subsets of these lines.''' This seems to be how they are considered in Japan: individual components of a single overarching line. The shared branding across fiction is no different to how the "Beast Hunters" branding is shared by [[Transformers: Prime (cartoon)#Season 3: Beast Hunters|''Prime'' Season 3]] and [[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters (comic)|the IDW comic]].

Please cast your votes below. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 21:32, 24 September 2021 (EDT)

* I vote for '''option two'''. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 21:35, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* I vote for '''Option two''' as well. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 21:37, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''2'''. [[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:38, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* Definitely leaning towards '''Option 2'''. F!SRLF appears on all the toy packaging, and the ID numbers continue on from one another. It's clear Takara thought of them as one franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 21:44, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' seems the most sensible given the information presented. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 21:46, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:01, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2'''. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 22:30, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 23:10, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2'''. Each is one franchise with mutliple cartoons (I've posted some new findings above) --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:09, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:39, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* I'm also going with '''option 2'''. The fact that the series logos are on the backs of the toy packaging is arguably more evidence that we should treat them as we do other subline imprints, in my view. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:18, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''' [[User:Notsoalex|--notsoalex]] ([[User talk:Notsoalex|talk]]) 16:41, 25 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''2''', if we're going by the wiki's pre-established rules of (generally) adhering to logos on packaging and instructions. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:45, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1''', though that's more of a gut feeling.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 18:18, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1'''. "There are no logos" became "Logos on the back don't count" a bit too quickly for my comfort. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:17, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 1'''. I'm uncomfortable with the combination of being extremely literal in one regard — "All JG1 is a single line known as Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers" — while using fuzzy terminology in another — "Generation 1 refers to everything pre-G2 in all territories". I feel like this decision was made hastily and the proposal is not balancing accuracy and clarity in a thoughtful enough way for me at this stage. -- [[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 15:56, 28 September 2021 (EDT)
* '''Option 2''', but not for the stated reasons. Standards for naming pages should be based on accessibility to new visitors, not satisfying the most technically accurate organizational scheme devised by older visitors. Some new fan who enjoys modern stories about Deathsaurus, Overlord, or Star Saber isn't going to understand what (Victory) or (Masterforce) is compared to (G1). But they're also not going to understand "''It's at (G1) instead of (Victory) because we analyzed 30y old box art captions in a foreign language to satisfy ourselves about the change.''" We don't need to twist ourselves into knots to justify this move on technicalities while also finding reasons not to do it for (BW) while still claiming to be internally consistent...*inhale*...if we just say, "''We're doing this to be more accessible.''" Boom, done. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:49, 29 September 2021 (EDT)
*'''Option 2'''--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 04:28, 3 October 2021 (EDT)
*'''Option Two'''. Reducing the number of disambig parentheses is useful here. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:29, 4 October 2021 (EDT)

Okay, the vote's been running for two weeks now, so we're probably gonna wind it down soon. If anyone's got any last minute votes or thoughts, now's the time to add them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:47, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

All right, with a final count of 16 to 3, the vote is overwhelmingly in favor of '''Option 2''', folding the Japanese G1 and Beast Wars sublines back into their parent franchises. Thanks everyone for voting and lending your opinions to the discussion. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:32, 18 October 2021 (EDT)

== Disambigs for TM2 characters ==

While we're still on the topic of page moves and titles and what not, I figured I should bring up these two cases that have bugged me for a while now.

I personally feel that we should move "[[Dinobot II]]" and "[[Prowl II]]" to "Dinobot (TM2)" and "Prowl (TM2)", respectively. These two were not given the Roman numeral suffix things (for lack of a better term) until the IDW Beast Wars Sourcebooks which were written what, 10 or so years after the fact?

Both the toy packaging for the pair and their bios never gave them that title and I'm pretty sure Dinobot was never called "Dinobot II" in the BW cartoon (granted, I haven't watched it in about 2 years, so I could be wrong). It just feels incredibly weird that we're naming these two after the Sourcebook names and not their original names.

[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] had also brought up on Discord that the fiction surrounding Prowl II and Prowl (TM2) should be split, but I personally think that we should keep them together as it's the same character, just with a different origin, which is no different to say any G1 character between Marvel, IDW and the cartoon, etc. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 22:41, 19 September 2021 (EDT)
:I agree with this change because the use of Dinobot II and Prowl II in the titles gives the wrong idea that these names have been used much more often than they actually have. Also there's always the possibility that someone will use those names in an official capacity just because they saw them on this wiki, and I think that's something we should try to avoid. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:02, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::The Sourcebook didn't even use the "II" in anything outside of the page titles and the Credits Index. Not in any of the biographical information for any of the "II" characters. In fact, the Credits Index goes the extra mile of placing each "II" inside a set of parentheses like "(II)", as if to say "These are each the second character listed with a shared name, but the 'II' isn't actually part of their names." --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:48, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:Prowl-II-the-owl-and-Binaltec-car was such a chore to put together, the only thing worse would be finding a way to take it apart - and both halves would need to refer to one another so much they would take up more space and cause more confusion than the single article currently is. Let's leave it alone. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::Yeah, as stated above I'm personally not for a split. I think MrRald also has plans on bringing it up on the talk page itself, so I'll leave that discussion more up to him to bring up. But what's your thoughts on the moves to "(TM2)"? -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 11:35, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::Are either "Dinobot II" or "Prowl II" canonically-published names, or are they convenient shorthand this wiki made up? [[Beast Wars Universe]] says "TM2 Dinobot", the [[BotCon 2002]] postcard set says "Dinobot (Transmetal 2)". I don't own BW Sourcebook. In general I side with names that are official (even if obscure) over those we made up. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:03, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
::::They were used officially, but only in the Sourcebooks for the most part. In Prowl's case, the Sourcebook use was kinda pseudo-retconned into being the JG1 version of the character, with AVP building onto the story and solidifying him as part of the Binaltech stuff. But other than that, both prowl and Dinobot have appeared in more pieces of fiction without the "II" in the name. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 13:30, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Turns out "Dinobot II" was used in Earth Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 17:52, 20 September 2021 (EDT)
:::::Before Dinobot II with the Roman Numeral in the Sourcebook, Dinobot 2 was used in the Dreamwave Summer Special title page for "Ain't no Rat." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 13:10, 23 September 2021 (EDT)
After a lot of thinking and research, I think Prowl II should be moved to Prowl (Transmetal 2) to fit with the system used for Prowl (Magnaboss) and Silverbolt (Fuzor). The name Prowl II has been proved to be non diegetic and the Binaltech body is called Prowl 2 (possibly a callback to the Spychanger who used to be on the same article as the owl). As for the contents of the actual article I changed my mind on any need for splitting. I'd just make the chip chase Prowl fiction more self contained and I have a sandbox as proof of concept. [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:55, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:I agree with moving them to disambigs. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:14, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::I'm all in for more accessible disambigs over anal "this name with a hyphen was only used once and thus requires no disambig" nonsense.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 18:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::"(TM2)" for both of these gets my vote. It's simple and eliminates the space in the middle of the tag. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:14, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::: TM2 for Prowl is fine, but Dinobot II is an official name used more than once and it's... also what people call him, so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 18:42, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::Isn't that only in Earth Wars, though? And it really wouldn't surprise me if Furman mainly did that because of our calling him "Dinobot II" in the first place. If that's the case, then shouldn't his original name in his primary media appearance(s) supersede later-given renames/nicknames in less prominent media? To use a bigger example, Hasbro has officially switched G1 Slag's name to Slug, but we don't use that name as the article's name because of the original media history wherein his name was Slag. TM2 Dinobot was always just "Dinobot" until Earth Wars. Dreamwave's description and the Sourcebook's page header were never diegetic. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:56, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

Alright, here are the fictional appearances of both characters that I know of and what name they are referred to by:
{|width=100%
|valign=top|
*'''Dinobot:'''
**Toyline/toy packaging/bio = "Dinobot"
**BW cartoon = "Dinobot"
**3H comics = "Dinobot"
**Dreamwave = "Dinobot 2"
**IDW BW 2006 = "Dinobot II"
**Battle Tactics = "Dinobot Transmetal II"
**Earth Wars = "Dinobot II"
:'''Total:''' "Dinobot" = '''2''', "Dinobot II" = '''2''', "Dinobot Transmetal 2" = '''1''', "Dinobot 2" = '''1'''
|valign=top|
*'''Prowl:'''
**Toyline/toy packaging/bio = "Prowl"
**JG1 = "Prowl 2" (Binaltech), "Prowl II" (Ask Vector Prime)
**IDW BW 2006 = "Prowl II" (BW Sourcebook only), "Prowl" (comic itself)
**TransTech = "Prowl"
**IDW1 = unnamed cameo
:'''Total:''' "Prowl" = '''3''', "Prowl II" = '''2''', "Prowl 2" = '''1'''
|}

I also want to make note that, based on some digging that Nevermore and MrRald did earlier today, it seems the original Japanese transcript for the Binaltech fiction uses "プロール2" (aka "Prowl 2") rather than "Prowl II", which leads to a bit of inconsistency when the AVP entry and the Binaltech story are supposed to be set in the same universe. However, I'm under the impression that the name was changed to "Prowl II" to not confuse him with the RID01 [[Prowl 2]] that was established as a Binaltech duplicate in the [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 10, 2015|same AVP entry]]. ''But'' then again, Ichikawa was also building off of the BW Sourcebook bio for the character in the AVP entry which used "Prowl II", so that could have also been a mistake. ''Also'' keep in mind that the BW Sourcebook bio for Prowl was ''very'' loosely based on the Binaltech fiction (or at least it seems like it). I don't know about you, but my head hurts now. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 04:17, 10 October 2021 (EDT)
:A few things to note about these findings. First, Dreamwave's use of "Dinobot 2" and the Sourcebook's use of "Dinobot II" were never diegetic. The Sourcebook just called him "Dinobot" in the biographical text of his profile, and the Credits Index labeled him as "Dinobot (II)" to denote that the "II" isn't actually part of his name. Earth Wars is the only thing to use it as such, and it came years and years after the fact.
:Second, the "Prowl 2" name given in the System Description for the Binaltech toy does not refer to the name of the character but to the physical body unit built by Honda that Prowl's soul was to inhabit. It was designated "Prowl 2" because it was created to be a duplicate body for Prowl to use with the GT System in addition to his normal body (until the accident that destroyed his original body changed those plans and forced the duplicate body to be the primary, but I digress). When referring to the character personally, the toy's profile, System Description, and Story of Binaltech chapter all just refer to him as "Prowl". Looking at the AVP answer, its use of "Prowl II" to refer to the character reads as if the writer (be it Jim, Ichikawa, or both) was under the misinformed impression at the tie that the owl Maximal was literally named "Prowl II" diegetically in IDW's 2006 BW comics, which he wasn't. He too was just "Prowl".
:Like Dinobot, the use of "Prowl II" by the Sourcebook was only in the page header for encyclopedic disambiguation, and was likewise labeled as "Prowl (II)" in the Credits Index to say that the "II" was never part of that Prowl's actual given name. Our Wiki article at the time merely gave the misinformed impression that it was, likely leading to the specific wording of the AVP answer. In other words, these numbered names really don't have much leg to stand on. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:50, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

== So, about 1995 Generation 2... ==
At the risk of opening yer another can of worms, what about the 1995 figures? In the United States and Canada, the packaging had dropped the "Generation 2" branding by that point, though the European releases were still "Generation 2".--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 04:51, 27 September 2021 (EDT)
:Feels like if Europe was still branding them as G2, and everyone else was just not branding them at all, they'd still be G2. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 12:45, 28 September 2021 (EDT)
::The real problem is the 1993 European releases with G2 faction symbols but not the G2 logo. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:23, 28 September 2021 (EDT)

== Toys used as Props ==

There's been discussion on the Discord about noting the use of Transformers toys as props in various movies. I think it's absolutely noteworthy to add when they are physical props, along the line of Starscream in ''Top Gun'' or Shockwave in ''Aliens''; they're using the physical toys in a real world sense as part of film production, similar to our note on Grimlock's toy page about his toy being in the British Museum. We've already got it on certain pages like ''Spaceballs'' because they are mentioned in fiction, but it think if we're going to do it, it should be an all or nothing thing. Something along the lines of this: ""Optimus Prime's toy was used in the movies Chuck Goes to McDonalds, Death God 2: Payback's a Bitch, and Larry the Donkey, and the television shows CSI: Berlin and Darla's Mystery Shop."

'''PUTTING THIS HERE BECAUSE I KNOW IT"S GONNA COME UP: I am specifically talking only through a real-world perspective of usage of props. Any discussion of in-fiction use is entirely irrelevant to me. If it's animated, I don't want it added.''' [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:32, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
: This feels like something that would be easily abused by users looking for an excuse to add even the slightest mention of something peripherally related to Transformers to the wiki, and would lead down a slippery slope to our notes and trivia sections becoming absolutely bloated like the average Wikia. Strong oppose. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:36, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:: The thing is we already have people bloating notes sections as is. I think worrying about any potential negative outcome actively hurts what we're capable of. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:42, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:::We have been deliberately avoiding "Razorbeast was in ''Fresh Prince'' and Beast Megatron was in ''Knock-Off'' and RID Megatron was in ''Sex and the City''" since day-1 of this wiki. I think it's mildly interesting to include cases where the TF toys are "hidden" within a fictional world - such as Shockwave in ''Aliens'', or Movie Bonecrusher on that CNN demonstration of how minesweepers work, precisely because they ''aren't supposed to be Transformers,'' they are supposed to be something else. But a notation of "such-and-such show had a character playing with a Transformer because Transformers are cool," ugh, no, heavy no. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:51, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
::::I'm on Thy's side here. Fun little trivial facts about a ''Transformers''/''Transformers''-related producted being repurposed as some weird thing in the background of a movie is always an interesting thing to note. However, if it is something like a kid holding a toy in the background of one episode of a show or in a movie, that's when our notes section would get overly bloated with pointless facts. On the ''Spaceballs'' note though, the colouring book and lunchbox fit as a repurposing of a product in a movie since they clearly just plastered on a sticker over an official ''Transformers'' logo to pass it off as something else in the context of their film. That doesn't mean I'm for noting the use of a G1 Starscream in ''Topgun'' because of the theory that "in the movie's context it's just a jet toy" when there is no real proof of this. Unless it is blatantly obvious that it is being used as something that was not its intended purpose, then I feel it shouldn't be documented on this wiki.

::::I did have another idea for those who might feel strongly about listing toy appearances in other media outside of ''Transformers'': What if we made a page similar to "[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]]" that just compiles together a bunch of appearances from over the years where a random ''Transformers'' product/toy is being used as a prop for a kid to play with? We could list all of the most popular ones together like G1 Prime under a "Generation 1 Optimus Prime" header and then any odd cases like RID01 Megatron in ''Sex and the City'' where only a single use of a figure is shown can just be placed under a simple "Other" header. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 20:19, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::I like the idea of a single page listing all toy appearances in off-brand media, could be something fun and informative to look through, and I think it would be preferable than listing them in the notes section of each character's page. Doing the latter could potentially clog the notes with trivia that is not actually relevant to the characters themselves. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 23:56, 5 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::I feel that as an encyclopedia, that whenever the media you are covering is depicted in another media, it is worth noting because it's making a cultural impact (whether it's big or small). I feel that nothing can be lost from listing these things. I can think of half a dozen times a Transformers toy has appeared in a TV series that is totally worth mentioning. I can see how on ''The Transformers: The Movie'' page that the Notes section is purely for information pertaining to the background of the movie itself and not to be abused, but that film has such a significance in one of the ''Goldbergs'' episodes, that it seems unjust to not refer to it somewhere on the wiki. I find stuff like this truly fascinating. So, it's either make a new section for stuff like that and include the info underneath, or make a new section that can link to a new page entirely. Thanks for reading. // [[User:Anythingspossibleforapossible|Anythingspossibleforapossible]] ([[User talk:Anythingspossibleforapossible|talk]]) 18:03, 10 October 2021 (EDT)

== Merge ROC Micromasters with Hasbro Micromasters ==

As part of our reintegration of JG1 into G1, I'd like to merge [[Bombshock (ROC)|Bombshock]], [[Dropshot (ROC)|Dropshot]], [[Growl (ROC)|Growl]], [[Tracer (ROC)|Tracer]], [[Grit (ROC)|Grit]], [[Hammer (ROC)|Hammer]], [[Knockout (ROC)|Knockout]], [[Sledge (ROC)|Sledge]], [[Direct-Hit (ROC)|Direct-Hit]], [[Excavator (ROC)|Excavator]], [[Power Punch (ROC)|Power Punch]], [[Stonecruncher (ROC)|Stonecruncher]], [[Fireshot (ROC)|Fireshot]], [[Half-Track (ROC)|Half-Track]], [[Meltdown (ROC)|Meltdown]], and [[Vanquish (ROC)|Vanquish]] with their respective Hasbro counterparts. I think there's plenty of sufficient grounds:
* Their names and toys are identical in both markets, with the only difference being the faction symbol on the box.
* They have no fiction, aside from Growl making a brief appearance in Legends, but considering the Hasbro version has no Japanese fiction, that doesn't pose an issue.
* The "W teams" the latter twelve are part of in ROC aren't actually teams at all. According to Sabrblade's research into the original Takara toy bios, "each W Team is actually two teams, with each Micromaster pair being a team on their own. The Shuttle Rocket W Team is actually the Shuttle Team and Rocket Team. The Fire Tanker W Team is the Fire Team and Tanker Team. And so on and so forth."
Given all this, I don't think it's unreasonable to merge them together and just leave notes saying "this character was marketed as an Autobot in Japan". Any objections? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 11:25, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:I thought this would apply to the Zone Micromasters too, but I see most of them at least changed names or colors (with [[Whisper (Zone)]] and [[Nightflight (Zone)]] being the exceptions), on top of having more fiction. I'm not opposed to the ROC guys being merged, since those are really sparse pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:38, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::I'm glad you brought this back up, as I feel it's important that we have some sort of consistent system to denote which Hasbro and Takara Micromasters we consider the same characters as each other, and which we consider different. Setting the [[Rescue Patrol (G1)|Rescue Patrol]] and [[Rescue Patrol Team]] aside (since the existence of Holi and Fire's separate HasLab toys from the Siege toys of Stakeout and Red Hot indicates that the current Hasbro team is willing to consider them separate characters from each other, despite their original toy decos and factions being identical), the following setup is what's true for each and every Micromaster, minus the six-combiners:
::*'''Category 1: Same name, same deco, same faction''' - [[Race Car Patrol|Roadhandler]], Hot House, Ironworks, [[Air Patrol|Blaze Master (kinda), Eagle Eye, Sky High, Tread Bolt]], [[Construction Patrol|Crumble, Groundpounder, Neutro, Takedown]], [[Race Track Patrol|Barricade, Ground Hog, Roller Force]], [[Monster Trucks Patrol|Big Hauler, Heavy Tread, Hydraulic, Slow Poke]], [[Astro Squad|Phaser, Blast Master, Moonrock, Missile Master, Barrage, Heave]], [[Metro Squad|Wheel Blaze (kinda), Roadburner, Oiler, Slide, Power Run, Strikedown]]
::*'''Category 2: Same name, same deco, different faction''' - [[Air Strike Patrol|Nightflight, Whisper]], [[Military Patrol|Bombshock, Dropshot, Growl, Tracer]], [[Battle Squad|Meltdown, Half-Track, Direct-Hit, Power Punch, Fireshot, Vanquish]], [[Constructor Squad|Stonecruncher, Excavator, Sledge, Hammer, Grit, Knockout]]
::*'''Category 3: Same name, different deco, same faction''' - [[Battle Patrol|Sidetrack, Sunrunner]]
::*'''Category 4: Same name, different deco, different faction''' - [[Sports Car Patrol|Road Hugger]]
::*'''Category 5: Different name, same deco, same faction''' - [[Off Road Patrol|Highjump/Nutshell, Mudslinger/Footdemo, Powertrain/Freed, Tote/Flak]], [[Race Car Patrol|Freewheeler/Wheelrun, Swindler/Glorean, Tailspin/Spinchange]], Erector/Cragun, Overload/Roadjet, Countdown/Moonradar, [[Race Track Patrol|Motorhead/Motorstar]], [[Hot Rod Patrol|Big Daddy/Grease, Greaser/Legs, Hubs/Lucas, Trip-Up/Vanishing]]
::*'''Category 6: Different name, same deco, different faction''' - [[Air Strike Patrol|Storm Cloud/Star Cloud, Tailwind/Windrim]], Flattop/Skywave, Roughstuff/Missile Bull, Airwave/Overair, Greasepit/Glasspit
::*'''Category 7: Different name, different deco, same faction''' - [[Battle Patrol|Big Shot/Gunlift, Flak/Powerbomb]]
::*'''Category 8: Different name, different deco, different faction''' - [[Sports Car Patrol|Blackjack/Black Heat, Detour/Deadhour, Hyperdrive/Gingham]]
::*'''Category 9: Hasbro-only''' - Groundshaker, Skyhopper, Skystalker, Terror-Tread, Cement-Head, Retro, Surge, Pipeline, Gusher, Blackout, Spaceshot, Full-Barrel, Overflow
::*'''Category 10: Takara-only''' - Gunrunner, Deadwheeler, Rabbicrater, Metrobomb, Sonic, Speeder, Drillbuster, Shotbomber, Spinner, Hot Rodimus
::The way we have it now is that those in Categories 1 and 5 (minus Countdown/Moonradar) are the same characters between the Hasbro and Takara releases, while those in all other categories are separate characters. Of note is that Categories 3 and 7 are Hasbro's Battle Patrol and Takara's Battle Patrol Team, while Categories 4 and 8 are Hasbro's Sports Car Patrol and Takara's Super Car Patrol Team. Were I to have included Hasbro's Rescue Patrol and Takara's Rescue Patrol Team, they would have gone into Category 5, but both we and Hasbro consider them separate characters from each other like those in Category 6 (which includes Airwave/Overair, who even got separate Earthrise toys from Hasbro), minus the difference in faction. And, as mentioned, we have Countdown and Moonradar separate despite their toys falling into Category 5. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:43, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::BWU had members of the Battle Patrol Team (Powerbomb, Gunlift) and the Battle Patrol (Flak, Big Shot) as different characters, so they'd have to remain separate either way. Keeping this separation for the other two (Sidetrack, Sunrunner) keeps things consistent. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:54, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::I would guess that BWU did that ''because'' we had separate articles on them, and I feel like there's a push for not further propagating things that got that way because of us (e.g. [[Violengiguar]]). --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 17:47, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::::I likely would have done it anyway. Please don't make any decisions based on what Beast Wars Uprising did. It's not intentional outlier.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:28, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::Added in links to group together each patrol/squad's members. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 17:07, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::I'd be inclined to consider categories 2 and 3 the same characters, for sure, and at that point I feel like I'd have a hard time arguing that category 4 shouldn't also be the same character. So I guess in a nutshell, it feels like at the very least if they have the same name they should probably be the same character (it's already really common for characters to have multiple decos of the same toy, and wouldn't even be the first time a character has had toys of different factions) -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 17:54, 19 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::The thing is, Categories 3 and 4 are linked with 7 and 8, respectively (3 and 7 are the Battle Patrol/Team and 4 and 8 are the Sports Car Patrol/Super Car Patrol Team). So anything we do with 3 and 4 must also apply to 7 and 8. Plus, the Air Strike Patrol/Team is similarly split between Categories 2 and 6, so they're linked as well. However, Category 6 is full of characters that we consider separate, particularly Airwave/Overair whom even Hasbro distinguished from each other in Earthrise. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:19, 19 October 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Victory Leo

2021-10-12T23:23:17Z

Jimsorenson: /* Further separation from Ginrai? */ well that was premature

AFAIK, even the original toy doesn't have the 'flight mode' presented in the anime. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 01:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
:It does, they're in the instructions. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 01:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
::[http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1989/victoryleoinstructions.jpg Doesn't look like it to me.] [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 14:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
:::The 'flight mode' was another mode created for the Japanese G1 cartoons by the animators at Toei. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 10:24, 3 December 2009 (EST)

==Further separation from Ginrai?==
Thanks to HasLab, Victory Leo is about to get a lot more attention than he has for the last few decades. His stand-alone page features almost nothing from the Victory cartoon - most of that is still at [[Ginrai (robot)]]. Are we sure we want to stick with the current division of info between the two pages? Would it be bad if we ended Ginrai's coverage of the Victory cartoon at the episode where he gets rebuilt and put the subsequent episodes onto VL's page? It also seems a bit questionable to have the VL toys on the Ginrai page... I don't think we do that for most other cases when someone gets reformatted into an entirely different toy, name, and persona (the TFTM reformats, Vehicon generals, etc.). --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:06, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
: I concur that a clean break at the reformatting TFTM style would probably make more sense than the current distribution. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 15:42, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
::Cartoon Victory Leo has a clear continuity of consciousness from God Ginrai, and this is the same standard we use for Bumblebee/Goldbug, Convoy/Star Convoy, most Megatron/Galvatrons, Megazarak/Blackzarak, et al. The only reason Victory Leo has a separate article in the first place is because the manga introduced him as a unrelated nobody. The TFTM guys beyond Galvatron were entirely new guys made from dead guys (the specifics of which, fiction can't even agree on) and the Vehicons were shell programs using older characters as batteries. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:48, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
:::Text from [http://tfu.info/1989/Cybertron/VictoryLeo/victoryleo.htm the toy bio]: "The reincarnation of God Ginrai, the previous Cybertron Supreme Commander. Born of the Victory Plan thanks to a proposal from the scientist Perceptor. His personality is exactly the same as God Ginrai's was, but in an unguarded moment during the reconstructive surgery, he temporarily lost his memory and turned violent." Pretty explicit there if the cartoon weren't already. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
I think the two articles as fine as is. Ginrai gets to keep his life as Leo in one article while the guys who aren't Ginrai get to be separate.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 16:20, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
:Agreed, this is no different to the likes of Greatshot who has been both an original character and the same character as Sixshot in different continuities. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 16:27, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
::I am all for two articles, with all Victory Leo content on Ginrai's page moved over here, cartoon fiction included. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:32, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
::: Yes Please! Keeping them separate is needlessly pedantic and adds nothing to readability or accessibility. We shouldn't be looking for technical excuses to make the decisions that make the wiki I'm more bizarre and confusing place. And that goes for Greatshot too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:35, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
:Another case no one has brought up yet is Tigerhawk and Razorclaw. They are the same guy, with the latter being (an alternate universe version of) the former after having been turned evil by Unicron, a la Universe Blackarachnia but with an added name change (or even more similarly, Kingdom's alternate-timeline Darkarachnia card). In their case, they are on two separate articles of their own, BUT with a suite at the top of each that links them together. A similar situation is also found with Megatron and Megatron X from Cyberverse. We could add Victory Leo to the Ginrai suite and then decide on which page the cartoon write-up goes. We could even make a "Sixshot | Greatshot" suite for those articles too if we wanted. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:29, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::Are we going to do this for [[Goldbug (IDW)]] and [[Mirage (Energon)]] as well? Those are more direct comparisons, I think. We keep the cartoon write-ups on Bumblebee and Tidal Wave's pages without fuss; the only difference I can see here is some people here conceptualized Victory Leo as a separate guy based on less attachment to the Victory cartoon whereas Goldbug and Mirage being character reformats in their primary portrayals was more accessible in the West. If Victory got released today, would this debate be a thing? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::: If he came out today I don't think it would be a debate, I think we would have just given him his own page. But ultimately one guy getting reformatted into a totally different guy with a totally different design and a totally different name and a totally different role in the story is a rare enough occurrence that we can go case-by-case without resorting to dubious slippery slope arguments. We don't need a blanket policy. We can just do what makes sense. In this case, that's a split. We're not coming for your Goldbugs I promise. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::::I don't care about Goldbug. I'm asking you to articulate the actual difference. You keep conceptualizing Victory Leo as a "totally different guy" when the cartoon and toy bio literally say "this is the same guy as God Ginrai". [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::::: I don't think we need a general criteria but if we did it would come down to something like name, design, role in story, personality, voice. If most of those are the same then they're the same guy. If most of those are different they're not. Victory Leo doesn't look like, sound like (yes I know it's the same actor, voice is different than actor), act like, or serve the same narrative function as God Ginrai. Goldbug does look like Bumblebee, act like Bumblebee, fulfill the same role in the narrative as Bumblebee, and sound like Bumblebee.
::::: Basically if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck it's a duck. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 15:32, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::Tankor spent most of his time as an awakened Rhinox with Rhinox's voice and saying things like "I'm not quite the Maximal I once was.". And they (correctly) get two pages just because the whole packaging and presentation and roles are different. As Jim observed, there may not be one single objective policy that covers all reformatted / reborn characters. I want to make sure I am being clear when I say I'm only bringing this up because there's about to be a lot of new attention from new people on VL. I wouldn't be surprised if clickbait media like Gizmodo or Kotaku write about VL. Sending potentially thousands of new readers to a page that only goes into detail about the manga, while hinting at the cartoon but not going into detail about it, is only going to lead to confusion. Are they best served being told to skim down for the life of VL two thirds of the way down the page about a truck guy? My preference is still for a full Rhinox-to-Tankor content split, but I'd call Sabrblade's suggestion of a Tigerhawk suite also worthwhile. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 15:55, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::@Jim: Hmm, if we were to go by that, then Leobreaker would have to be split from Overhaul since his name, design, role in story (he's given far more prominence and even command positions), and (slightly) his voice all change from when he was Overhaul. Only his personality remains the same. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:00, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::::Ditto for Energon Mirage and Snow Cat. Again, this is seeming to boil down to VL being a older Japanese character while the other examples are more contemporary to the wiki and more well-known to us as Westerners. A kid in 1989 who read the bio on his Victory Leo toy and watched the cartoon isn’t going to conceptualize him as a different guy to God Ginrai just like how kids in 2004 didn’t think Mirage was a different guy to Tidal Wave despite the different appearance, name, and behavior in the cartoon. (And, once again, VL doesn’t act differently to GG.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:24, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::::Actually the opposite. I'm not intimately familiar with the Unicron Trilogy stuff so I'm not commenting on it but I know Victory well. Victory And Masterforce are nearer and dearer to my heart than Armada and Cybertron. Victory I encountered earlier in my fandom, back in the 90s. And yes, Victory Leo acts VERY differently than Ginrai who was mostly defined by his reluctance to get involved with the conflict at all and coming to terms with his position as de facto leader. V.L. does precisely none of that. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 16:59, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
:::::::::That was human Ginrai's character arc that was resolved by the end of Masterforce. Robot Ginrai in Victory is primarily defined by being fond of Jan/Holi and wanting to useful to Star Saber. Which ultimately fulfilled by being turned into Star Saber's power-up. From the first episode of Victory on, he never shirks from leadership and wanting to fight the Decepticons. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 12 October 2021 (EDT)
::::::::::I... agree with Saix! I think a separate Victory Leo page that links to Ginrai for his cartoon section is the best solution, and we already do that. If you look for Victory Leo, you'll find him here! He's not hiding. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:33, 12 October 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Victory Leo

2021-10-12T18:23:02Z