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Talk:Optimus Prime (WFC)

2016-06-02T18:42:45Z

John3637881: /* Is it too early... */ new section

[[Image:PrimeBeastHunters-Optimus-Prime2.0.jpg|right|thumb]]

This disambig tag fills me with glee. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 13:12, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:Though why people find this funny confuses me. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 13:22, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::I just imagine [[Shrapnel (G1)|Shrapnel]] saying it, it. Or would that be Optimus Prime (Prime), (Prime)? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:34, 29 June 2010 (EDT)

I guess the archivist thing is from Exodus? 'cause in the WfC game he instead mentions having been a dock worker.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 14:44, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::When did he mention that? I honestly don't remember him saying that, but my memory is not exactly something to go on. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:06, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::It's during the in-game banter, I'd say during the second autobot chapter but could be the third. If memory serves, a teammate voices his approval of Optimus' taking matters in his own hands and acting like a leader and Optimus retorts as soon as the war's over he'll go back to working at the docks. [[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 03:47, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
: Yay, more inconsistencies! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:46, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::And I thought nothing could be more inconsistent with established continuity than AHM. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:49, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::And is it 100 percent certain the Optimus in WFC and the one in Prime will be the same guy, cause I've been tracking the news, and beyond a lot of speculation and vague suggestion, nothing seems confirmed [[Special:Contributions/148.197.8.240|148.197.8.240]] 00.01 30 Jube 2010
::::Everyone at Hasbro sure seems to think so. ''Exodus'', which is written apparently from the ''Prime'' show backstory, includes the events of WFC loosely within its second half. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:11, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Even if they're not in the exact same universe, they're certainly in the same continuity family, so they'd get the same page. Just as Sunbow Prime and IDW Prime are both on the G1 page.[[User:Kaje|Kaje]] 19:31, 29 June 2010 (EDT)
::And there are others. Well, I haven't read Exodus but based on the summary on this wiki it's more like two different stories that reach the same end point. For one, in WfC Optimus doesn't become a Prime at the beginning of the war, but after Zeta's death, mere days before the evacuation. And the Matrix is introduced in a completely different way, possibly doesnt even ''exist'' until the end of chapter 8. [[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 08:29, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Exodus tries to have it both ways. Once you get to the end of the book and Sentinel dies, Optimus gets the Matrix then, and Alpha Trion notes that Prime wasn't truly a Prime until this moment, regardless of what the council said. So he was dubbed a Prime by the council at the beginning, but it wasn't really true until just before they left Earth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:34, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I guess it's an honorable fix, yet still doesn't mesh, mind you. In the game it's mentioned Optimus first refused to be a Prime, which is why he doesn't have the title (whether or not this landed Zeta the job is unclear since the way they word it at times I may almost think they could have several Primes at once) and the Matrix is unrelated to the Council and the Prime title they bestow.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 08:42, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::::Why don't we just change the opening to "The young bot who would become Optimus Prime" rather than have it at Optimus or Orion Pax, and wait until Prime premiers and see if it ever goes with one or the other?

In the game, it's Optimus, not Orion Pax. Does the book override the game, or vice versa?
-ThiAthEhn
: The events of the game happen within the last half of the novel, after Optimus has stopped being Orion Pax. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:52, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::The tricky bit is still that the game starts before he decides to become Optimus Prime, ie in the novel he goes from Orion Pax to Optimus Prime, while in the game he goes from Optimus to Optimus Prime.[[User:Bobbington|Bobbington]] 12:52, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::Yeah, the article's current bio doesn't take into account the WFC game at all. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:59, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::Hmm. The game does have a scene where Megatron and Optimus talk about something that happened between them before the game started. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:19, 2 July 2010 (EDT)

Small correction needed in Exiles section: "Blurr, Prime and Ransack." should be "Blurr, Override and Ransack." --[[User:Proximus|Proximus]] 19:08, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

== So, do we have to move WFC stuff I've written to new character articles? ==

Argh. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:48, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:Just like I predicted, yes. [[User:Dead Metal|Dead Metal]] 14:00, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::I'm too tired to clean this giant mess right now. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:01, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

== Profile Should Be Rewritten ==

The Character profile here right now is all Exodus stuff. But almost all of it is stuff that is totally different in WfC. The Character profiles are supposed to be generic and fit all version of the character. I think this one needs to be moved to the Exodus sub-section and a new more general Prime (Prime) (that's fun) profile written, Yes?--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 08:57, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:I agree, it's a bit too specific about the Exodus stuff considering what a big deal WFC is as a form of Prime media. I believe the reason it totally lacks WFC stuff is because Walky wrote it and apparently hasn't played WFC yet. Well, I presume on the last, anyway. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 10:55, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::I guess nobody cares then. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 20:57, 4 July 2010 (EDT)
:::I care, and I think it does need to be rewritten but I think that'll be a LOT easier to do once Prime is on TV and we have more to work with. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 07:23, 11 August 2010 (EDT)
:Exodus appears to be the official backstory of the Prime continuity, judging by the [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 official timeline]. For all the marketing hype about how WFC was totally in-continuity and everything, it appears the video game is, as video games usually are, a [[micro-continuity]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:44, 11 August 2010 (EDT)

== G1==

So Exodus is based off the prime cartoon but war for cybertron is a prequel to g1.And if you disagree hasbro themselves sayed that. {{unsigned|98.204.17.1|14:54, July 5, 2010 (EDT)}}
:Yes, it is, no it isn't, no they haven't, sign your posts, Do The Research. Thank you for your time. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:41, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
::I wouldn't jump to conclusions right now. Videogames based on franchises tend to get retconned, like what happened to the Ultimate Spider-Man video game. Also, the show has been described as a mix of Animated and Live-Action films, which the game doesn't really reflect. If we are going to reclassify characters we should use something like "Optimus Prime (WFC)" until everything gets really confirmed.[[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 22:19, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
THANK YOU someone gets it. "unregistered" 11:35, 6 July 2010 (EDT){{unsigned|98.204.17.1}}

For Primus' sake, it was confirmed at Comic-Con that Prime follows on from WFC. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 16:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)

== Toy ==

The fig looks awesome with [[Octane#Universe_.282008.29|Tankor]]'s guns on his forearms! [[User:Hida Atarasi|Hida Atarasi]] 14:33, 21 August 2010 (EDT)
:And this is relevant how? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 15:26, 21 August 2010 (EDT)

== Move ==

So yeah, I've been suggesting this for a while, and this goes for all WFC (including ''Exodus'') articles, which we're really treating as a separate franchise now we've gone with Aligned as the continuity family's name for now. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I disagree with moving this article, because WFC isn't really a separate franchise. It's some tie-in games that Hasbro licensed to launch their new continuity with. The related toys didn't even have their own logo, they were released as "Generations". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:17, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:Moving it just sort of feels "wrong" to me in a way I can't properly articulate. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 07:58, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I disagree with moving any of these articles, for the reasons articulated by abates. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:01, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:No. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 08:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I don't even consider War for Cybertron to be a franchise, so no. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 08:44, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:No chance in Hades. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:49, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::Right now I can see two distinct reasons beyond "no" (this isn't a poll actually). One, WFC is no less a franchise than Power Core Combiners, and it was a game accompanied by a novel, a comic and toys. At one point ''Prime'' toys were going to be released as Generations, but it's still a Transformers franchise. Afterall, [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] was released as part of the unsubtitled range last year, but he's still a G1 character.
::Chris, I know how you feel about moving it to (WFC) as ''Prime'' is where we're really getting to know these characters, that's why we have the ''Prime'' designs as the main images. If you are for uniformity, perhaps it is time to move [[Optimus Prime (Movie)]] to "Optimus Prime (LVF)", and this to "Optimus Prime (Aligned)"?
::Regardless, I will be adding WFC Autobots and Decepticons cats to these pages. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 09:45, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::Remember "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", or in more wiki-related terms "[[Help:Ignore all standards|in situations where the standards intended to prevent confusion would instead contribute to it, common sense should rule.]]" That's why all the Shattered Glass characters are at (SG) even though some of them are technically (Timelines).--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:12, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::"[[Optimus Prime (Prime)]]" debuted before "''Prime''" even existed. He predates ''Prime''. So I don't like "Optimus Prime (Prime)." Categorizing Aligned things by franchise might be obsolete. The toyline is no longer organized by franchise. I think "Optimus Prime (Aligned)" is the way to go. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:36, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I lean towards Optimus Prime (Aligned) myself because it's Right, though I also think there's a good argument for keeping it Prime (Prime) because its Simpler for Users. So...?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:45, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::No one outside the wiki will know what "aligned" means, and we don't disambiguate by continuity family anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 13:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::I didn't realize this conversation existed, so I started [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|another one on the same topic over here]] and covered basically everything people have brought up. For the record, I agree entirely with what Alientraveller has said. "(WFC)" for most of these guys, "(Prime)" for the ones that originated in the cartoon, and "(Aligned)" for none of them because we disambig by franchise, not family. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 14:06, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I feel if we're going to talk about moving a bunch of high-profile characters, it should probably be discussed somewhere more central like the community portal. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:43, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I believe we should keep O.P. (Prime) seperate from his WFC page. In my opinion, they are different enough to warrent seperation.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 10:34, 2 March 2011 (EST)
: That is absolutely not going to happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:32, 2 March 2011 (EST)
:Yeah, because nobody is allowed to change in personality over the course of '''untold millions of years'''. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:45, 2 March 2011 (EST)
::He's not talking about the personality. At least, I hope not, since they're both Stock Movie Peter Cullen Prime. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:32, 2 March 2011 (EST)
:::Well, my point about change still stands just as well in regards to appearance as it does in regards to personality. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:36, 2 March 2011 (EST)
::::Yeah, just run down the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] page and look at all the 30 million bodies he went through. Prime (Prime) just has two. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:53, 2 March 2011 (EST)

: No no no no no no no no no no nononono fucking NO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:20, 2 March 2011 (EST)
: If Hasbro hadn't specifically said that WFC and Prime go together, you might have had a point. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:27, 2 March 2011 (EST)

I agree with Sipher.

Page is staying at (Prime) for now, as with all WFC characters who are in ''Prime'', per an agreement at the Community Portal to keep those characters at (Prime) to not confuse the normal readers. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:07, 5 March 2011 (EST)

== Animated? ==

"The instructions show the rifle being plugged in by its shorter peg, which causes it to resemble the Transformers Animated Voyager-class Optimus Prime...", how does it resemble him at all?--[[User:TOM|TOM]] 16:18, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
:It's referring to the shape of the guns being similar. [[Special:Contributions/98.209.73.178|98.209.73.178]] 19:39, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
::And yet they aren't, at all. The note is removed. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:21, 25 March 2011 (EDT)

== Generations Prime stress marks ==

Should it be mentioned in the article that the panel his back wheels are attached to causes stress marks to the surrounding plastic around the hinges on the sides of his legs when the panel is flipped? I have the United and Darkside versions, and they both feature plastic hinge parts that are quite thick, meaning that the panel is tense, is difficult to flip over, and that the plastic tends to press hard onto his legs when flipped, resulting in some nasty stress marks. I'm just wondering whether anybody else has this problem. <strike>[[Special:Contributions/58.69.199.160|58.69.199.160]] 22:32, 10 November 2011 (EST)</strike> [[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] 21:45, 7 December 2011 (EST)

== Quick Question ==

Now that Optimus is a Decepticon, can anyone add a Decepticon insignia on the page?--[[Special:Contributions/69.19.14.39|69.19.14.39]] 17:01, 15 November 2011 (EST) P.S. I wonder if Optimus eventually will say "Tyranny is the right of all sentient beings.". The World will NEVER KNOW!
::No. That violates "Spoiler Rules." --[[User:Primo|Primo]] 23:25, 20 December 2011 (EST)
:::It has nothing to do with spoiler rules. We do not withhold information based on "spoilers". [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:28, 20 December 2011 (EST)
:::: We certainly do in some cases, and in those rare cases when we do, it's at the very top of articles. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:33, 20 December 2011 (EST)

==HOF?==
Is this optimus a hall of famer?

-Yep [[User:Laserbeak's Drunk Uncle|Laserbeak's Drunk Uncle]] 15:43, 11 November 2012 (EST)Laserbeak's Drunk Uncle

==Transformation Instructions==
"Push down on his ''hood?''" He doesn't ''have'' a hood. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:53, 28 November 2011 (EST)

==Aligned?==
What evidence is there that Optimus Prime is the same guy as WFC/Prime Optimus, other than the off-the-cuff comment that Cybertron is uninhabitable? It's not like a deserted Cybertron is exclusive to the Aligned continuity family, after all. [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 18:04, 18 December 2011 (EST)
: The cartoon goes to great lengths to suggest there's a larger Transformers universe that Rescue Bots is not allowed to interact with. If this cartoon were truly its own thing, with no connections to any concurrently-running television show, they wouldn't be going out of their way to bring up the war and then make up excuses for why these dudes don't get to be a part of it. That this is [[Optimus Prime (Prime)]]'s "secret second family" is the simplest answer to the question of why all this complexity for no reason.
: Plus, frankly, I bet anything Hasbro produces these days is from that Aligned bible. The only reason these guys have separate pages to begin with is that representatives at Toy Fair said these guys were from a universe with no Decepticons. Clearly, that's not the case. And if we were never told that, I would have bunched up these characters with the Prime universe.
: Remember, the Prime continuity family also includes War for Cybertron. Two out of three of Hasbro's new outlets for Transformers content (WFC, Prime cartoon) are in the Aligned continuity family. To think that the third, Rescue Bots, is not included in this group, even though the RB cartoon spends considerable time to make it possible for the three to coexist... is illogical. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:17, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:: Fair enough, but I think we should at least wait for some kind of official confirmation before doing anything too drastic. [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 18:21, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::That might be a long wait. I mean, even if they stick a bit in Prime where someone walks in on Optimus having a secret phone call with Heatwave, a bunch of stuff needs to happen in Prime before they can get to that point. :) --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:32, 18 December 2011 (EST)
::::Yeah, given how Prime is currently going, I am pretty damn sure that Rescue Bots takes place either before or during the first season. I don't think it could happen during at least the beginning of the second, or possibly beyond. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:37, 18 December 2011 (EST)
::::: Wild mass guessing time! I'd probably say it would take place during the three-year lull in Decepticon activity before Darkness Rising. This would also probably explain away the minor but equally niggling aspect of Prime's different truck mode. [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 18:50, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::::: '''I don't think the visuals matter at all. Comparing WFC with Prime, for example, Hasbro feels that the visual style of any particular area within their Aligned universe can look however it wants, so long as it works for the story.''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:58, 18 December 2011 (EST)
::::::: I know, I know, I just like to fanwank over minor details. :p [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 19:00, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:: Also, where in Aligned would RB take place? I mean, Prime seems to take place in contemporary times, whereas RB seems to be set at some time in the future... [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 18:23, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::RB takes place on an island which is specifically indicated as being a special place for experimental technology. That's another piece of evidence for RB sharing a universe with the Prime cartoon. If it didn't need to share a universe, they wouldn't have had to spend time talking about how this is a place different from everywhere else. They could have just set it in the future. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:26, 18 December 2011 (EST)
::::I think if it was in the TFP universe, Prime's priority would proooobably have any newcomer Autobots help with the war effort.--[[User:Primo|Primo]] 19:01, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::::Although, at the same time, it's made clear that the Rescue Bots are not designed for fighting, and it's not like Prime to force people into the war effort. Plus, there's the fact that this may or may not take place during a time when there was no Decepticon activity anyways. [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 19:18, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:::::As Tom says. The war is brought up, but Optimus won't let them join. Why? Because they're the last known survivors of a rescue class of Transformer. Again, the show itself attempts frequently to explain why this RB show exists concurrently with the Prime cartoon while still making sense. It brings up all of the questions we would ask and answers them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:13, 18 December 2011 (EST)

But it said the only human that knew their secret was charlie burns it the first episode. what about Fowler? ([[Special:Contributions/184.56.19.73|184.56.19.73]] 19:43, 18 December 2011 (EST))
:If Optimus didn't tell Fowler about the Rescue Bots, he's gonna be really annoyed. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:56, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:In the second episode, Optimus says, "I have found that the young of the species have been our most valuable allies." Clearly Charlie Burns was the only human to know about the Transformers... on that island. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:10, 18 December 2011 (EST)

I was going to say that this cartoon could also fit into the Movieverse.... except by the time Prime first starts his recorded broadcasts welcoming other Autobots to Earth, it's the end of Movie 1 and all of humankind already knows about TFs, meaning there's no need for secrecy for the Rescue guys. It would be very fun to merge Prime and RB, though I'm a bit concerned that that judgment might be being nudged forwards more by how much fun it is rather than how ironclad solid the evidence is. I don't think we are at our usual standard of evidence yet, but I also don't think we will ever get any more than what we've got now. The [[Galvatron II]] page includes the bio writeup for Universe Galvatron because he's potentially a toy of that character, with a disclaimer stating that he might not be as well. If these two Optimi are merged, I recommend taking the same tack: put in an intro note and/or italicize all the actions described from this medium. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:32, 18 December 2011 (EST)
:I say that let's all wait for a few more episodes to air. For example, if Bumblebee appears on the show and he justs happens to be able to talk, then it's confirmed to be an alternate universe or continuity from Transformers Prime. -- [[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 15:06, 19 December 2011 (EST)
:: His character model doesn't give him a mouth. Also, he has no voice actor. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:27, 19 December 2011 (EST)
:::But he still hasn't appeared yet so we can't know for sure. And his character model was concept art not final. Plus, what happens to all the human companions discarded in favor of the Burns?- [[User:ACIDSTORM92|ACIDSTORM92]] 18:26, 19 December 2011 (EST)
::It's already likely an alternate universe from Prime. The question is whether it fits into the Aligned continuity family, not the Prime continuity. I think it at least does the former. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:55, 19 December 2011 (EST)
:::I think the cartoon is pretty clearly intended to be in the same universe, with perhaps a few minor continuity hiccups. It is the toyline that appears to be in a slightly different universe from the cartoon so far. Cody is older, Charlie is younger, not a policeman, and not partnered with Chase, and the other characters have different partners. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:16, 19 December 2011 (EST)
::: Would it be too early to make a note of it on the [[Aligned timeline]] page? [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 19:18, 19 December 2011 (EST)
::: We only have some toys and 2 episodes For now. There are not enough proof to say that RB is part of Aligned Continuity or not. So can't we wait for further information? - [[User:Thunderweb|Thunderweb]] 06:49, 20 December 2011 (EST) (edited by [[User:Thunderweb|Thunderweb]] 07:08, 20 December 2011 (EST))
::::As I stated on the other talk page discussion, the burden of proof is on those who say it doesn't fit. Hasbro's said that all of their new properties going forward are working from the Aligned bible. Until something comes up that tells us this cartoon is strangely exempt from that edict, RB is by default in Aligned. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:28, 20 December 2011 (EST)
I just realized one thing that doesn't add up with this show and Prime. In Prime, the Earth's core is filled with Dark Energon/Unicron. In Rescue Bots, it's filled with lava/magma. Though, at the end of "One Shall Rise, Part 3" the Dark Energon in that volcano looked like turned (back?) into lava, so... what's the connection between Dark Energon and lava? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:51, 21 December 2011 (EST)
: Volcanic lava does not come from the Earth's core. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:57, 21 December 2011 (EST)
::Okay. Though, there's still the matter of one volcano spewing lava and another spewing Dark Energon if they're both linked to the same planetary core. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:16, 21 December 2011 (EST)
::: Volcanoes do not work that way. Good night. :p [[User:Tom Servo the Great|Tom Servo the Great]] 12:18, 21 December 2011 (EST)
:::Lava obviously ''does exist'' in the Aligned universe. ''Prime'' even mentions other normal volcanic eruptions, like the one at the [[Kamchatka Peninsula]]. It's not a problem. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 12:20, 21 December 2011 (EST)
::::Thanks, Chris. I'm all for Rescue Bots being in Aligned. Just pointing out any things that need clearing up. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:27, 21 December 2011 (EST)
Something that makes me lean more towards it taking place before Prime season 1 would be Optimus Prime's altmode. In Prime, he is certainly a long-nosed truck. The Rescue Bots Optimus toy has him turn into a flat-nosed truck. If he ever eventually transforms in the Rescue Bots cartoon, here's hoping his altmode is one that doesn't interfere with the overall shape of his Prime altmode. Cuz, unless he's doing some spontaneous altmode switching, him turning into a flat-nosed truck would lean more towards Rescue Bots taking place before Prime, allowing Optimus to be two different kinds of trucks in both shows. But, if the show has him turn into a long-nosed truck, in spite of what toy turns into, then there's more leeway for the Rescue Bots cartoon to occur at either time (before or during Prime season 1). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:56, 31 December 2011 (EST)
:See the edit I bolded above. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:00, 31 December 2011 (EST)

== Robot Heroes and Prime Together? ==

Has hasbro ever said that Robot heroes and and Prime are in the same continuity and if so does that mean that the Prime cartoon and the Robot Heroes cartoon are in the same time line? Doesn't that kinda contradict each other? --[[User:Mojotron|Mojotron]]
: It's "Rescue Bots." --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:15, 31 December 2011 (EST)
: 1)Same "continuity family" not necissarily same timeline (look up the difference if you don't know) and 2) No, not at all.
Crap. Don't know why I said why I said Robot Heroes. Has Hasbro ever said said they share the same continuity?
:See above. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:53, 31 December 2011 (EST)
Sure it could be in another timeline but what evidence do we have that they are in the '''SAME CONTINUITY?''' just 'cuz they both show on the Hub doesn't mean that they are the same continuity [[User:Jazzerprime]] 2:47, February 3 2011
::See above "Aligned" conversation. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 02:44, 3 February 2012 (EST)
: Kline said in a web-interview-thing that yes, they're in the same continuity, just to clear up who said it. ~[[User:Oberoniss]]

== Orion Pax, Part 1 ==

You forgot to update the article. Even though by the time you read this it might already be done. You forgot to add info on Orion Pax, Part 1 and on Rescue Bots. They both aired today. I know because I watched both of them.[[Special:Contributions/71.162.103.239|71.162.103.239]] 23:08, 18 February 2012 (EST)
:People will edit articles when they feel like it. We do not need your reminders. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 23:12, 18 February 2012 (EST)
::Rescue Bots is already covered too. Eesh. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:13, 18 February 2012 (EST)

Should we put a Decepticon insignia in the top right corner, seeing as "Orion" bore their insignia in "[[Orion Pax, Part 1]]"? What do you think?{{unsigned|68.147.45.66}}
:Seems logical. Silverbolt gets one because he was a member for like a half-hour in one episode. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:24, 18 February 2012 (EST)
::I was going to ask the same thing? But never mind. I just have to say that things can change fast sometimes. This is one of those times. [[Special:Contributions/71.162.103.239|71.162.103.239]] 23:27, 18 February 2012 (EST)

== Mergining the Rescue bots and Prime cartoonssection ==
Since Exiles and Exodus sections were merged to a single section named Alinged Novels, then i had an idea why not we merge the Prime and RB Cartoons section aswell?. just an idea [[User:Eagc7|Eagc7]] 23:21, 22 April 2012 (EDT) [[User:Eagc7|Eagc7]]
: No. We don't know in which order events happen between the two series, even if we wanted to merge those sections. There's a huge difference between putting two consecutive novels from the same series in a section and two completely different cartoon shows in the same section. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

== BS Optimus w/ Trailer/Launcher ==
Its been out for about 3 months. --[[User:Kohu Maximus|Kohu Maximus]] 16:20, 6 May 2012 (EDT)
: And you've had the ability to update such information yourself for 5 years. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:24, 6 May 2012 (EDT)

==Latest Edits==
I updated this page for Optimus Prime with what may appear to be an essay, but is a lowdown of his personality - because it's HIS PAGE. Additionally, some of the information was getting a little out of date. Please, Its Walky, don't go about reverting it just because you think it should be short.
[[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 10:31, 21 September 2012 (EDT)

== Rename ==

Since he started out as Orion Pax, shouldn't the page be called that? That's usually the case.[[User:Transfan 1992|Transfan 1992]] 18:28, 21 December 2012 (EST)
:What? No, it isn't. [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] is not at Orion Pax (G1). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 21 December 2012 (EST)
::Well the difference is, the G1 Optimus has several origins. In some stories, he is Orion Pax, in others he's Optronix, and in some, he's just Optimus at the beginning. With this incarnation, he's always Orion Pax. And with this whole Aligned continuity and there having to be one universe, it's unlikely this Optimus will get a contridicting backstory. I mean [[Smokescreen (Armada)]] isn't named [[Hoist (Armada)]].[[User:Transfan 1992|Transfan 1992]] 15:35, 25 December 2012 (EST)
:::He already has a contradictory backstory: His pre-Prime name is "Orion Pax" in Exodus and "Optimus" in War for Cybertron. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:21, 27 December 2012 (EST)

== Moving? ==

[[User:ArceeFanGirl|ArceeFanGirl]] 17:42, 27 December 2012 (EST)I think you should make seperate character pages for WFC characters and leave the Prime characters where they are.

It should be like this.

Optimus Prime (WFC)
Optimus Prime (Prime)
:Wait, split? Why? They're the same character. That's like saying we should split consider Sunbow cartoon Optimus Prime a separate character from Marvel comics Optimus Prime. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:10, 27 December 2012 (EST)
: That would present false information, so no. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:27, 27 December 2012 (EST)

== Optimus Prime profile photo ==
[[File:PrimeOptimus.jpg|150px]] [[File:PrimeBeastHunters-Optimus-Prime2.0.jpg|250px]]

Hi I'm curious to know if your planning to upgrade Optimus profile pic from his season 1-3 look to his 2.0 look that he got in Transformers: Prime season 3 Beast Hunters "Rebellion"?--[[User:Optimal OptimusPrime|Optimal OptimusPrime]] 14:31, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
:Our policy seems to be "first body or most well-known body" with the mainpics, which is his season 1-2 body. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:36, 29 July 2013 (EDT)
::To quote [[Help:Example character article|the relevant help page]], "''Characters often have multiple bodies, so the main image should be their original "real world" form, and as full-body as possible.''" [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 14:40, 29 July 2013 (EDT)

== Toy Page? ==

Should we move the toys/merchandise to a toys category?
- [[User:Kuptrion|Kuptrion]] 20:02, 20 October 2013 (EDT)

==[http://tylerscarletart.blogspot.hu/2012/10/transformers-prime-orion-pax-design.html Interesting Concept Art for TFP!Orion Pax]==
I found this in a link while scrolling tumblr, it was done by an artist who was interning at Hasbro in 2010. He said it was an assignment given too him while he was there. I know the design concepts are unofficial, so I figured they shouldn't be posted or uploaded too the wiki. But I figure since this guy worked so hard on it, it deserved to be shared with the fans. I also thought you guys might wanna see it. <br>[[User:Ixbran|Ixbran]] ([[User talk:Ixbran|talk]]) 21:30, 18 November 2013 (EST)

== Tiny Titans caption? ==

[[File:BotToTheFuture Optimus steps forward.jpg|thumb|Guest starring in an all new ''Tiny Titans'' comic book.]]
Since i imagine [[Tiny Titans|Transformers]] [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=%22tiny+titans%22&fulltext=Search Tiny Titans] have little or nothing to do with the [http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Tiny_Titans Tiny Titans] referenced in the [[Optimus_Prime_(WFC)#Rescue_Bots_cartoon]] caption transcribed here, should we maybe change or remove that caption? ...Then again, who knows if somewhere in the near future there might not ''be'' a Tiny TF Titans comic book with an Optimus looking like this.

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 00:54, 8 March 2015 (EST)

--Question--
Optimus Prime did not appear in The Reign of Morroco but was away from his base but yet it is mentioned but he did nothing but concept art for him was shown in Double Villainy-SeanTF1967

== Is it too early... ==

...to divide the main page into subsection pages like we do with various characters from ''G1''/''Beast Wars''/the live-action films, etc.? I'm talking about the potential of a page like "Optimus Prime (WFC)/Cartoon continuity."

Or would it not work since the works of the Aligned continuity are much closer related than all of the G1 sub-stories? [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:42, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-06-02T18:37:37Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, Template:Notecmn could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: Template:TransformersComicMagazin and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)
===Collapsable continuity notes?===
I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

Speaking of notes and templates, can we also scrub the IDW notes that say ''"[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]] was shorter than it should've been because [[Simon Furman]] was fired."'' and the Dreamwave notes that say ''"Because Dreamwave collapsed, plot threads were left dangling."''...unless those notes are ''specifically'' contributing something to the character's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:53, 15 January 2016 (EST)
:I'd say yes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:16, 15 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Another proposal after I had a thought just now: [[:File:H3 dashed overlines.jpg|dashed overlines]]. The difference should be enough to differentiate from the underlines on h2s, and they nicely group together related stuff. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:46, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Alternate names==
When we mention a character's alternate names (i.e, on X's page, we note that "he is sometimes known as '''Y'''), there seems to be a bit of confusion as to exactly ''where'' we do it. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Grapple_(G1)&oldid=1043677 Some pages]<ref>(EDIT: Grapple's alternate name has been moved to the bio, so the link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref> place such information near the top in the continuity note, whereas [[Octane|others]] put it at the end of the opening paragraph. Is there a policy on this? I don't particularly care one way or the other, I'd just like to see them made consistent. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:08, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I prefer them to be in the top rather than in the bio.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:54, 17 January 2016 (EST)
::The continuity notes are cluttered enough already. Put them at the end of the bio. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::: I think, barring the unusual case of an obscure alternate name that is seldom used, the end of the continuity note is the ideal place. But I'm not sure consistency is absolutely necessary, as long as the information is conveyed in an appropriate way.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I concur with Saix. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I prefer the end of the intro over the continuity note. It leaves more room for multiple names (in case a character has 2 or more alternate names) and also makes room for context (like, when and where and why is the character sometimes called by that other name). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:54, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::I prefer the end of the intro as well. Take a look at [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod&oldid=1046644 Hot Rod]. <ref>(EDIT: as of 18:11, 20 January 2016 (EST), they've been moved into the bio. The link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref>He has all his names in the continuity note, and it's a mess. If we're going to pick just one way to do it (and I think we should), it should be at the end of the intro. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::You've convinced me that the intro is a smarter spot. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 20 January 2016 (EST)
How about [[Vector Prime]]'s alternate names? He's never made a solid appearance using any of them, so should they be in both the intro and in the AVP story section? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:23, 21 January 2016 (EST)
: That feels like a great place to make an exception and only list them in the fiction section or the notes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:44, 21 January 2016 (EST)
{{reflist}}

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Convoy is also called Miscellaneous Magnus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names_links|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:25, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== Parodies ==

I think we should have one page that lists notable parodies and stuff. Just to get them out of the way. [[User:HarbringerOfDoom|HarbringerOfDoom]] ([[User talk:HarbringerOfDoom|talk]]) 08:29, 20 January 2016 (EST)

:They're already out of the way, by virtue of being not on this wiki. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::I noticed recently that the other place has started listing stuff like characters' appearances on ''Family Guy'' and ''Robot Chicken'' in their main profiles, which gives us even more reason not to. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I can see the appeal, but I suspect it would quickly get out of hand. Transformers gets referenced in a lot of pop culture. Every show, movie, and Web comic is somebody's favorite, so I suspect any such page would quickly become an unbearably long and tedious list. So what would that leave us with? A page saying Transformers often shows up in pop culture? I'm not sure there's any value to that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:13, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:You guys have got to just be doing this on purpose now. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (EST)
::::I will get myself banned before I will allow this wiki to cover Family Guy and Robot Chicken. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:23, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''''NO.''''' Like, a thousand times no. I believe similar discussions have been had in the past, and the answer was a resounding no. (I can't find that particular discussion at the moment; I'll post it here if I find it.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::::We have episodes of cartoons and issues of comics that are stubs and primary character articles that need to have their fiction sections filled out, but ok, yeah. Let's start pedantically listing every time ''Family Guy'' has referenced Transformers. That should be a priority. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:''<nowiki>**Condescending Wonka image**</nowiki>'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:00, 20 January 2016 (EST)
The only page that would make sense (to me) while keeping in line with the spirit for this wiki is a simple list of times that official product was used in movies and television.
*This toy was in such and such movie in year 19XX.
*Transformers episode so'n'so was seen the background of movie in year 200X.
*A number of toys were shown featured in McTV show in episode whatzitz.
References are out. Parodies are out, and it's only a single page as to not clutter up the rest (similar to what we do with unofficial Transformers guides.) --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] ([[User talk:Bluestreak7|talk]]) 02:36, 22 February 2016 (EST)
:I really don't see any potential benefit to that. Are we going to make a page full of stuff like "Some G1 toys showed up in ''Flight of the Navigator''" and stuff like that? Why? It's pointless, and it would just open the floodgates for more of the same pointless crap, not to mention how bloated and useless it would be. Before long, people will use that page as an argument for including bullshit from Family Guy and the Chevy commercial with the car that turns into a robot and god knows what else. Information about references to ''Transformers'' in other media is something for Wikipedia to cover. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:24, 22 February 2016 (EST)

== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of]]

== Is there a category for images from the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages? ==

Do we have a category for all the images posted on the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages like [[Ask Vector Prime]], [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]], etc? As I've been going through the [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|uncategorized images]], I've noticed that quite a few of them are from those Facebook pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:16, 8 February 2016 (EST)

== "Requested URL could not be retrieved" ==

I can't seem to find any kind of technical place to post this, so I'm just going to post it here in the hopes of getting some attention. For some reason, I've been locked out of the site; trying to access the website on either of my main computers results in a white page and an "ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved" message. I've tried clearing my cache, deleting cookies, all that stuff (I can still post on my phone). I suspect that it's some kind of internal server problem (I don't think I've done anything to break the wiki on my end), but I'm not sure? Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:09, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:That might have been me being too zealous with the spam blocking. I'll send you an email shortly. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:36, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:: Thank you! I will see if it works. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:56, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::Did you get the email? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:14, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::: sorry for the late response, it got put into junk mail. Clicking the link just takes me to a blocked site. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:43, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::OK, I think you should now be unblocked. Give it another try! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:57, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::: It worked! Many thanks! [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:03, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::::No problem - sorry about that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:05, 29 February 2016 (EST)

== Facebook-exclusive characters ==
Given the copious quantity of characters debuted through the Tornado and TransTech Facebook pages who have no toys and have yet to appear in any other fiction, would it be appropriate to create a "Facebook-only characters" subcategory of "Fiction-only characters"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:59, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Not a bad idea. I'd also be down for "Online-media exclusive characters" or something along those lines. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, that sounds worthwhile. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:19, 1 March 2016 (EST)

== Furthering the use of list articles ==

Looking at Chris McFeely's [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|sandbox]] for the GoBots list article, I think that maybe similar list articles would be a nice way to handle some of the minor Shattered Glass and Kre-O characters. Pages like [[Broadside (SG)]] are rather useless, and I think that consolidating such pages into a list article would lead to a better reader experience. (To save us from pointless page moves, I would suggest just turning the old pages into a redirect to the list article, keeping all the categories.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:38, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:No. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 19:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Would you care to elaborate on that? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::We only used a list for GoBots as a compromise for the endless debate. Applying that concept to inarguable Transformers characters is senseless and leads to more arguments over what counts for a list and what doesn't. You're just causing more inconsistency and headaches for no benefit. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (EST)
I still hate the list pages for Gobots, I don't want to have to spread it further. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (EST)

Lists are not ideal. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:26, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Fair enough. It was just a thought -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)

== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Sick_Of_Arguing_About_GoBots_II]]

== RID Kre-O ==

Since we're unlikely to get any more Kre-O fiction, and all of the RID Kre-O articles are pretty sparse in content, maybe they should just be merged to the main RID character articles? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:27, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I'll be honest, I'm not averse to this at all. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:13, 8 March 2016 (EST)
::I guess nobody's really opposed to this or cares, so I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
After looking through the Kre-O pages... I feel like the comic-only cameos should all just be merged to whatever they're referencing. After merging all of the Iocus crap, it feels right to do the same to articles that are pretty much just "BWII Galvatron, but as a Kreon". They're very specific references removed from their context for really no good reason. Maybe not a popular suggestion, but throwing it out there. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:50, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::So long as it doesn't mess around with characters that freely switch between different incarnations of themselves, or are composite homages that can't be neatly classified. I can't think of any way those could be neatly merged into another page. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I'm mostly focusing on unique characters (Fractyl, Atari, Tarn, etc.) and not the big archetypes like Optimus or Bumblebee. Most characters with toys will be left alone. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:35, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm extremely cool with this. Never been big fan of giving them individual articles in the first place. Like, honestly, in a more organized world where this stuff hadn't been created on an incremental basis, "Fornax" almost certainly wouldn't be a thing and it'd all be Iocus. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:Again, no real objection, if a tepid "sure". I mean, I'm not really convinced that Kreons based on existing characters who DO have toys but no fiction (like a hefty chunk of the "Class" sets) really need to be split out. A page from Kreon Topspin seems... overly redundant. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:29, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I'm looking around more and it seems like there's only a select few that couldn't be encompassed by their main versions. Most of the Class series is guilty of that, but there's also lots of Kreons based on one-shot characters ([[Wingspan Hawk]], [[Barrage (Kre-O)]]). We have a lot of pages that are just "this exists and is obviously this other thing" from both the toyline and the comic. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:39, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::You probably are doing this, but be sure to add the "Kreons" category and such when condensing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:53, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:Ehhh... I disagree. I mean, the Kreon Class ones, sure, but I'm less certain on What about the likes of the [[Soundwave's Trap? Stop Operation Brainwash Humanity!|Soundwaves and Convoys]] and [[Enter the New Emperor of Destruction!? Stop Galvatron's Rampage!|Starscreams]]? I'd probably vote strong "yes" to merging the Class of 84/5 guys, weak "yes" to merging the fictionless Kreons (and maybe the non-Transformer comic cameos, I don't know), but a strong "no" to anyone who was actually in the comic. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::We do have a couple of examples where character pages have sections that cover more than one character already. The Masterforce transtectors and the BeCool cartoon come to mind. Does it really serve anything to give those tiny one-panel cameos in a referential comic their own pages? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:03, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::As I've noted before, there comes a point where we're just being pointlessly pedantic, making people jump through hoops (and incrementally hitting our bandwidth limits) for... no actual ''benefit'' near as I can tell. Seriously. What's the benefit? What is the purpose? "Consistency"? Sorry, this franchise has grown and mutated too big for us to try and cram everything into no-exceptions rules. We HAVE to be flexible and make exceptions in some places, and when it comes to overly-redundant pages, that's where I'm more than willing to make exceptions.
:::I'm down with low-content one-pages for one-panel ''unique'' characters to be certain, like the Hideous Brain Guy, but for Basically The Well-Known G1 Character But In Brick Form? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhn. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:45, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Should we merge <nowiki>[[Soundblaster (Kre-O)]] into [[Soundblaster (G1)]]?</nowiki> Their colors aren't exactly the same, but they're both black repaint clones of the main Soundwave. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:02, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
:Sure, whatever. If another independent G1 Soundblaster pops up, that's probably where they're going anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:54, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
So what are we doing about ''Kre-O'' toys who unambiguously represent a single established character? Back on March 25, Sipher undid the merger of ''Kre-O'' [[Ravage (Kre-O)|Ravage]], but on May 5, Chris merged ''Kre-O'' Megaplex. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 13:25, 15 May 2016 (EDT)

== Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures ==

(Slight re-editing of something I posted on the Allspark) I think we may need to put something in [[Template:Welcome|the welcome template]] and/or on [[Main Page/editing-tips|Main Page/editing-tips]] about how new users are unable to create pages because of all the spam stuff; it seems to be [[User talk:Foffy the Sheep#Extreme Editing Difficulties|confusing some people]]. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:45, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
:I've just reduced the timeout for creating new pages down to 6 hours, which should still slow down the spammers but not be quite as much of a burden on legit new users. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:50, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
Is any active admin still getting emails sent to the webmaster mailbox? I ask because I'm getting a ton of them: Looks like new IP/User Agent blocks, and I haven't touched this setup since... 2014? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 23:12, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

We now have a new captcha based on the [[Transformers Name Generator]], which should hopefully be harder for the spammers to crack. Also my apologies to the non-spammers caught up in the blocking - all of the user agent blocks have been rolled back by now, so hopefully no one should be blocked from viewing the site. (Also as per McFly above, I've redirected the webmaster email address to me) --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (EDT)
:I hope the new signup test is not too difficult - I notice we haven't had any new signups since implementing it. I changed the notice to be clearer and provided an example. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

== Memobots and Deskcepticons ==

For those not in the know, the Hasbro Facebook page posted a bunch of new "characters" for April Fools, The Memobots and the Deskcepticons. While awesome, there's very little material for each "character" to have its own page. (All there is are photoshopped pictures of office supplies, some tech-spec stats and some very brief blurbs.) I'm thinking maybe each "faction" could have a single page, listing each of its members, instead of a very bare page for each "character." Thoughts? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:53, 2 April 2016 (EDT)
: Just so long as they're represented here somehow. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 23:08, 2 April 2016 (EDT)

== Possible partnership with the German Transformers Wikia ==

I've been approached by the main admin of the German Transformers Wiki[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Abatesnz#Conflict_with_the_TFWiki.net] about forming a partnership with them. We've had a long running partnership with Wookieepedia, which is also hosted on Wikia. They'd link to our pages from their pages and vice versa. Possibly we could set them up as an interlanguage link - I'd have to look into what's involved. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:51, 7 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beast Wars reorganization ==

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Demonstration]]. It's evident that all of the conflicting continuities and crap is out of control, so this seems like the cleanest approach now. It's based on the movie approach we're using, since it's a pretty similar situation. Thoughts? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:23, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
:That's fine by me. The old chronological way is becoming a clusterfudge. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:33, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

==GoBots discussions consolidated==
Since we've been discussing this topic for literally years, I thought it would be useful to consolidate it all in one place, in order, with summaries of the key decisions. It can be daunting to keep track of it all, and in recent months the rules have changed several times. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots]]. Summaries could use some work, but I tried to stick to the simple facts without editorializing. I think the important thing with the summaries is that they succinctly say roughly what was discussed and what, if any, decisions were reached. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:47, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

== "Transformers Trilogy" manga ==

(Although I'm not sure if that's the actual title.) Turns out I have it on my hard drive: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ymumej4klqkttlu/AAA2AdRbHyvvxUU6kR6b-rBCa?dl=0]. Feel free to do with as you please. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

==Alternate Names links==

Looking at [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise's]] page, I see from the top he is sometimes known as '''Streetstar''' and '''Streetsmart'''. I know Streetstar comes from ''Wings'', but I don't know where Streetsmart comes from. I recommend a practice of making those "sometimes known as" bits into links that carry you down to the particular Fiction or Toy where the particular name comes from, like <nowiki>[[Streetwise (G1)#Wings Universe|Streetstar]]</nowiki>. Thoughts? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:20, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:I like the idea, but I would prefer ref notes to section links. Also, there are cases like Bluestreak/Silverstreak, where the alternate name is used in multiple places, and we'd have to decide how much detail we'd want to go into in those instances. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::Yeah, if an alternate name is used in multiple places, a reference note explanation attached to the name could better cover all of those in one go. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:42, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I would prefer to uses refs even when the name is only used in one place. I can't quite put it into words, but using section links for this purpose just feels...''wrong''. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:55, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::Could you try to put it in words? Because section links would be ''"Click here to find what you're looking for."'' Ref notes would be ''"Click here to go to some text at the bottom of the page to tell you where to look in the middle of the page to find what you're looking for."'' Seems like an unnecessary extra step. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::I think the section link wouldn't make it very clear that it's showing you where the name is from. It looks like it's going to send you to a different page or something, then just sends you to a different section of the same page and hopes you figure out what's going on.

:::::The ref note has an advantage in that it's already associated with addendums and citations. When the reader sees a ref note, they instantly know "this will show me some details about this bit of text", while a link says "This is going to send me to another page". -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 14:05, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::...I feel like the reader would have to be pretty stupid not to understand what the link was doing. "Slingshot is sometimes known as '''Quickslinger'''." Click the link, see a toy of Slingshot called Quickslinger, with http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slingshot_(G1) still in the address bar. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 14:21, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Ref notes would only be absolutely necessary if an alternate name is used in multiple places. I'd still rather use ref notes on all of them, but your way works just as well and it's not really worth arguing about any further. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:16, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
@Foffy: I don't see a problem for the cases I've mentioned, no, but I'm not convinced my idea is best for cases where a character is regularly known by multiple names. For instance, how would this apply to Hot Rod's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 15:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Prime is also called Miscellaneous Maximus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:24, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== characters without pages ==

i do not feel compelled to create pages for [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=1096168&oldid=1072705 Scarytown] or [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Insecticon_%28WFC%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096169 Scurry Down], do you?
--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:10, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Given that this character doesn't exist and he's telling the other injured Insecticon to "stay down," no, I don't. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::Chris McFeely edit summary: We went through this when the episode aired - he's telling the other Insecticon to "stay down."
:::Thanks. Can you link me to that discussion? (Not finding it on [[Talk:Insecticon_(WFC)]] or [[Talk:Toxicity]], maybe the Community Portal archives?) i have the DVD in my computer's disc drive right now and i really don't think he's saying "stay down"; i'm quite sure i hear another syllable in the middle there. (i also think Hardshell using the other Con's name makes more sense than telling him to stay down.) But like i said, it's hard to make out what he's saying. --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:37, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::I don't think there's even a discussion to link to, because editors just reverted anyone who tried to add it. He's not calling him "Scurrytown." I'm sorry, he's just not. It's the snarling voice Kaye uses. There's KIND of a "k-" sound in there, but there's no R. The Insecticon has just tried to get up, and Hardshell is telling it not to bother, and instead stay down and radio the ship. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== A suggestion to benefit the wiki ==

Hey everyone. I've noticed that this wiki lacks some templates that would be beneficial to have when it comes to linking articles. For example, if I want to link to the G1 Starscream page, I would have to write <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]</nowiki>. That's sort of a pain to do. Over on [http://www.ssbwiki.com/ SmashWiki], we use some templates to cut down on the amount of text needed to do that kind of linking. [http://www.ssbwiki.com/Template:SSB Here's an example].

If we implemented this, one would have to write <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki> if they wanted to link to that page. That cuts down on a lot of text.

Is this a good suggestion? Btw, I still think that pages such as [[Optimus Prime (WFC)]] should be called Optimus Prime (Aligned) instead. It makes ''way'' more sense to do it that way and would make this template process a bit easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Could be useful. But disambiguating by continuity family instead of franchise has been discussed to death and decided against repeatedly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::I know that it's a frequently argued topic, but I think it's more relevant than ever due to the fact that we have two franchises with the same name (RID). I mean, why are [[Steeljaw (RID)]] and [[Grimlock (RID)]] not characters from the same series? It makes no sense. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:01, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::: Part of the disambiguation by series, and not by continuity family, is because sometimes character names get re-used within a universe for different characters. For instance, we have [[Steeljaw (FOC)|Steeljaw]] the Autobot lion, and Steeljaw the Decepticon wolf, both of whom exist in the Aligned universe. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 14:05, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::The problem you're having is that you're expecting the disambig tags to convey information when that's not their actual job. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::It's not? Wouldn't it be simpler then to just go numerical by appearance? Optimus Prime (1), Optimus Prime (2), etc? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:32, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::Because then you'd have to memorise a list of numbers in order to link to the Optimus Prime that you wanted? If disambig tags were supposed to be a source of information, every single article would have one. Their actual job is to avoid having articles named the same thing. The continuity note, i.e. the ''first sentence of every article'', is the thing that's supposed to tell what franchise and continuity family a thing is from. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 15:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::That. The current disambig tags exist to help editors remember who's who while saving us from having to type "(RID 2015)" over and over. Would you be able to tell me offhand who "Blackout III" is? They are ultimately an editing convenience and are not meant to convey every single detail about a character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:12, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::::I can see how that would be a pain. I wasn't proposing that system, just trying to reconcile the idea that tags don't convey information.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::So that case would move further down the hierarchy. How does that affect the idea of starting with continuity family? And it is completely ignoring the fact that the (RID) tags (and the (Universe) tags) are ambiguous in the real world sense. True, they may not be ambiguous in the narrow wiki definition, but to new and casual readers the fact that the exact same tag can refer to two different series is confusing. We should not be increasing real world ambiguity ("Which RID series is this again?") just because it doesn't cause wiki-centric ambiguity. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

oh my god you guys, '''no, stop''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:I feel like disambiguation tag debates should be definitively banned, to be honest. They just go into circles and nothing ever changes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
Typing <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|]]</nowiki> also works, is only slightly longer than <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki>, and has the benefit of not including the overhead of expanding a template which adds processing time to any page when the site has to render it. That last one might not be a problem on a small wiki with only medium-sized pages like SmashWiki, but here it could be a big issue. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:That's great. I had no idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::It ''is'' kinda buried in the middle of [[Help:Editing]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:37, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Well, to anyone who actually contributed to the discussion, thanks for your input. I can see that this sort of template isn't really what this wiki is looking for, although I do think it would make things a little easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

As for disambiguation by continuity family versus franchise, I've been thinking about a potential compromise that I hope has not been brought up before: Would it be possible to do both types of disambiguation? Something like Optimus Prime (Aligned/WFC) or Steeljaw (Aligned/RID), where the first part would designate the continuity family and the second half would designate the origin franchise. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 09:58, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:Stop. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:05, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::That's neither respectful nor constructive. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:11, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:::Beating this dead horse again with overcomplicated proposals that miss the point of disambiguation tags isn't constructive, but here we are. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:26, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:This has been discussed time and again in the past and it always comes back to the current system of franchise disambiguation. Everyone who expresses disdain for changing this system has either been involved in or seen so many of the past discussions on this matter that they're just tired of seeing it brought up every time it gets brought up over and over again. So it's basically fruitless to suggest changing the disambiguation system from being how it currently is, as all the higher-ups are adamant about keeping it the way it is and would rather not have to repeat themselves from past discussions on why this system works as is and why changing it isn't a good idea. It's nothing against you, it's just that this subject is a touchy one that everyone's tired of retreading so much. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:33, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::Well, thanks for the best answer so far. To me, adding a couple more letters to the names of articles for the purpose of avoiding confusion doesn't seem like over-complicating. It became clear to me when I first brought this up that a compromise of some sort would be the most effective way to constructively and satisfactorily solve the problem. The reason this issue continues to be brought up consistently is because the system could be better. I remain hopeful that some well-received compromise will eventually pop up.

::I understand that people are frustrated at the commonality of this topic, but the "I/we disagree with you, so stop talking," way this problem has been handled by many people makes the wiki look bad imo. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:46, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:::The way I see it, the confusion your suggestion could bring about is that, at a glance, the presence of two different terms separated by a slash in the disambiguation tag would, to the uninformed, give the impression that the subject of the article originates from and/or pertains to two different series, which is a type of confusion that the tags aim to avoid. Having one term per tag is a simpler setup than having two terms per tag, and something more simple tends to be easier for people to understand than something less simple. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:05, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::::For me, this always comes back to the fact that disambig tags aren't supposed to be a source of information - if they did, every page would have one. They're there so pages don't have to have the same name. The continuity note, right there at the top of the page, exists to tell you everything you need to know about the character's continuity of origin. In potentially confusing cases like [[Grimlock (RID)]], the very first thing is a disambig template saying "hey, if you're looking for the green dinosaur, go here". I just don't see the potential for disambig tags confusing people unless they're literally not reading the actual articles. (On a related note, in cases where the disambig tag is something potentially unexpected, there is almost always a redirect in place to get you to the right place - e.g. [[Ratchet (Prime)]], [[Sentinel Prime (DOTM)]], and so on.)

::::As for this particular proposal, I feel like it isn't very transferable beyond Aligned. Like, extrapolating that approach you'd have lots of tags that were the same thing twice (RID/RID), and even if you made an exception for those cases, you'd get supremely confusing stuff like Megatron (G1/BW), Dreadwing (G1/G2), Grimlock (RID/Dinobots), etc. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:21, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:::::It seems unrealistic to say "''disambig tags aren't a source of information''" when they act as both the title of the page and the mechanism through which the search function works. They're not only the first thing visitors see on each page (even before the continuity note, and in much larger, bolder font), they're also the means by which someone will find a page in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:38, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::::::Fair points. Though I'd argue that the current proposal of adding continuity family prefixes would probably make it ''harder'' for the casual user, who isn't big into the online Transformers fandom, to find a given character using the search function, ''especially'' with terms like "Aligned" that haven't actually ever been used by mass media. Joe Bloggs is unlikely to have a particular conception of "continuity family" and is far more likely to be searching based on the name of the cartoon/game/film whatever they saw the character in. The change that I personally probably ''would'' say "sure, why not" to would be adding years to the reused-name franchise disambig tags even when characters aren't in both, e.g. [[Grimlock (RID 2001)]], even though there wouldn't be an article at [[Grimlock (RID 2015)]]. Not strictly necessary to separate articles, but could potentially cut down on the odd bit of confusion. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 14:31, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

:::::Yeah, I can see now how my proposal could cause more confusion than clarification. Two of you (Sabrblade and Jalaguy) give fairly good reasons why not to go through with this. Would it be possible to use a system like this for only Aligned characters, or is that still too confusing?

:::::As for disambiguation tags not being a source of information, I have to disagree with that to some extent. Yes, we can just look at the first sentence of any given page, and yes, there are redirects, but the article names threw me off several years ago and I can imagine they would do the same thing to people nowadays. For example, I wondered what the ''Prime'' Optimus was doing on a page called Optimus Prime (WFC). It wasn't exactly clear that a video game from 2010 was the original work in the Aligned continuity or that a completely different-looking Optimus was indeed the one from ''Prime''. Perhaps above all, it should be stated somewhere ''why'' pages are called what they are. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:37, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

== How to request main page changes? ==

Hi! I'm fairly new here, so I'm sorry if this is a silly question. The main page seems to be edit-locked except for admins, which is an excellent idea. However, I'm used to having a place to request edits to locked pages - in this case, I'd probably mostly be asking for updates to the Rescue Bots "newest episodes" list. Does this wiki have one? If yes, where? Thanks for answering! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 17:02, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
:The current releases box actually runs off a separate template that anybody can edit - click the little 'V' in the corner of the box to access it and update to your heart's content! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 17:12, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
::I didn't even notice that. Thanks! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 19:23, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

== Anonymous Primal (BW) has lots of toys! You may be looking for Anonymous Primal (Animated) or Anonymous Primal (RID). ==

A [[Mirage_(G1)/toys|few]] [[Optimus_Prime_(G1)/toys|spot]] [[Megatron_(G1)/toys|checks]] suggest that when a character has enough toys that they warrant a separate page from the character's main article, the toys page does not link directly to a disambiguation page, even if the character does. Looks like [[Shockwave_(G1)/Marvel_Comics_continuity|fiction]] [[Wheeljack_(G1)/Generation_1_cartoon_continuity|sections]] don't have disambiguation links, either. How easily could disambiguation links (where applicable) be added to the {(suite)} template? So if you're trying to look up a toy and, whoa, hey, these aren't the droids i'm looking for, but that's the name on the box--maybe someone else has that name?

i bet you're thinking, "If you start by looking up the name on the box, you'll land on the disambig page." But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?

Maybe it's easy enough to find the disambig pages. But maybe we can make it easier. i just don't know how to edit templates, myself (and wouldn't edit them without asking).

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 23:45, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
:"But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?" Which doesn't happen. You are creating solutions to problems that only exist in your head. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:18, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
::What Saix said. If the links are sending someone to the wrong place, what needs to happen is that we fix them, not create solutions to problems that will never arise if everything is done properly. Also, I'd really rather not clutter the suite templates; they're specifically desgned to be small and non-intrusive, and sticking disambigs in them detracts from that. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:26, 30 May 2016 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-06-02T18:37:21Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-06-02T15:46:46Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, Template:Notecmn could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: Template:TransformersComicMagazin and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)
===Collapsable continuity notes?===
I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

Speaking of notes and templates, can we also scrub the IDW notes that say ''"[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]] was shorter than it should've been because [[Simon Furman]] was fired."'' and the Dreamwave notes that say ''"Because Dreamwave collapsed, plot threads were left dangling."''...unless those notes are ''specifically'' contributing something to the character's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:53, 15 January 2016 (EST)
:I'd say yes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:16, 15 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Another proposal after I had a thought just now: [[:File:H3 dashed overlines.jpg|dashed overlines]]. The difference should be enough to differentiate from the underlines on h2s, and they nicely group together related stuff. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:46, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Alternate names==
When we mention a character's alternate names (i.e, on X's page, we note that "he is sometimes known as '''Y'''), there seems to be a bit of confusion as to exactly ''where'' we do it. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Grapple_(G1)&oldid=1043677 Some pages]<ref>(EDIT: Grapple's alternate name has been moved to the bio, so the link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref> place such information near the top in the continuity note, whereas [[Octane|others]] put it at the end of the opening paragraph. Is there a policy on this? I don't particularly care one way or the other, I'd just like to see them made consistent. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:08, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I prefer them to be in the top rather than in the bio.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:54, 17 January 2016 (EST)
::The continuity notes are cluttered enough already. Put them at the end of the bio. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::: I think, barring the unusual case of an obscure alternate name that is seldom used, the end of the continuity note is the ideal place. But I'm not sure consistency is absolutely necessary, as long as the information is conveyed in an appropriate way.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I concur with Saix. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I prefer the end of the intro over the continuity note. It leaves more room for multiple names (in case a character has 2 or more alternate names) and also makes room for context (like, when and where and why is the character sometimes called by that other name). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:54, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::I prefer the end of the intro as well. Take a look at [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod&oldid=1046644 Hot Rod]. <ref>(EDIT: as of 18:11, 20 January 2016 (EST), they've been moved into the bio. The link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref>He has all his names in the continuity note, and it's a mess. If we're going to pick just one way to do it (and I think we should), it should be at the end of the intro. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::You've convinced me that the intro is a smarter spot. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 20 January 2016 (EST)
How about [[Vector Prime]]'s alternate names? He's never made a solid appearance using any of them, so should they be in both the intro and in the AVP story section? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:23, 21 January 2016 (EST)
: That feels like a great place to make an exception and only list them in the fiction section or the notes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:44, 21 January 2016 (EST)
{{reflist}}

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Convoy is also called Miscellaneous Magnus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names_links|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:25, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== Parodies ==

I think we should have one page that lists notable parodies and stuff. Just to get them out of the way. [[User:HarbringerOfDoom|HarbringerOfDoom]] ([[User talk:HarbringerOfDoom|talk]]) 08:29, 20 January 2016 (EST)

:They're already out of the way, by virtue of being not on this wiki. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::I noticed recently that the other place has started listing stuff like characters' appearances on ''Family Guy'' and ''Robot Chicken'' in their main profiles, which gives us even more reason not to. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I can see the appeal, but I suspect it would quickly get out of hand. Transformers gets referenced in a lot of pop culture. Every show, movie, and Web comic is somebody's favorite, so I suspect any such page would quickly become an unbearably long and tedious list. So what would that leave us with? A page saying Transformers often shows up in pop culture? I'm not sure there's any value to that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:13, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:You guys have got to just be doing this on purpose now. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (EST)
::::I will get myself banned before I will allow this wiki to cover Family Guy and Robot Chicken. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:23, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''''NO.''''' Like, a thousand times no. I believe similar discussions have been had in the past, and the answer was a resounding no. (I can't find that particular discussion at the moment; I'll post it here if I find it.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::::We have episodes of cartoons and issues of comics that are stubs and primary character articles that need to have their fiction sections filled out, but ok, yeah. Let's start pedantically listing every time ''Family Guy'' has referenced Transformers. That should be a priority. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:''<nowiki>**Condescending Wonka image**</nowiki>'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:00, 20 January 2016 (EST)
The only page that would make sense (to me) while keeping in line with the spirit for this wiki is a simple list of times that official product was used in movies and television.
*This toy was in such and such movie in year 19XX.
*Transformers episode so'n'so was seen the background of movie in year 200X.
*A number of toys were shown featured in McTV show in episode whatzitz.
References are out. Parodies are out, and it's only a single page as to not clutter up the rest (similar to what we do with unofficial Transformers guides.) --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] ([[User talk:Bluestreak7|talk]]) 02:36, 22 February 2016 (EST)
:I really don't see any potential benefit to that. Are we going to make a page full of stuff like "Some G1 toys showed up in ''Flight of the Navigator''" and stuff like that? Why? It's pointless, and it would just open the floodgates for more of the same pointless crap, not to mention how bloated and useless it would be. Before long, people will use that page as an argument for including bullshit from Family Guy and the Chevy commercial with the car that turns into a robot and god knows what else. Information about references to ''Transformers'' in other media is something for Wikipedia to cover. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:24, 22 February 2016 (EST)

== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of]]

== Is there a category for images from the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages? ==

Do we have a category for all the images posted on the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages like [[Ask Vector Prime]], [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]], etc? As I've been going through the [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|uncategorized images]], I've noticed that quite a few of them are from those Facebook pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:16, 8 February 2016 (EST)

== "Requested URL could not be retrieved" ==

I can't seem to find any kind of technical place to post this, so I'm just going to post it here in the hopes of getting some attention. For some reason, I've been locked out of the site; trying to access the website on either of my main computers results in a white page and an "ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved" message. I've tried clearing my cache, deleting cookies, all that stuff (I can still post on my phone). I suspect that it's some kind of internal server problem (I don't think I've done anything to break the wiki on my end), but I'm not sure? Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:09, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:That might have been me being too zealous with the spam blocking. I'll send you an email shortly. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:36, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:: Thank you! I will see if it works. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:56, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::Did you get the email? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:14, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::: sorry for the late response, it got put into junk mail. Clicking the link just takes me to a blocked site. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:43, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::OK, I think you should now be unblocked. Give it another try! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:57, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::: It worked! Many thanks! [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:03, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::::No problem - sorry about that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:05, 29 February 2016 (EST)

== Facebook-exclusive characters ==
Given the copious quantity of characters debuted through the Tornado and TransTech Facebook pages who have no toys and have yet to appear in any other fiction, would it be appropriate to create a "Facebook-only characters" subcategory of "Fiction-only characters"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:59, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Not a bad idea. I'd also be down for "Online-media exclusive characters" or something along those lines. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, that sounds worthwhile. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:19, 1 March 2016 (EST)

== Furthering the use of list articles ==

Looking at Chris McFeely's [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|sandbox]] for the GoBots list article, I think that maybe similar list articles would be a nice way to handle some of the minor Shattered Glass and Kre-O characters. Pages like [[Broadside (SG)]] are rather useless, and I think that consolidating such pages into a list article would lead to a better reader experience. (To save us from pointless page moves, I would suggest just turning the old pages into a redirect to the list article, keeping all the categories.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:38, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:No. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 19:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Would you care to elaborate on that? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::We only used a list for GoBots as a compromise for the endless debate. Applying that concept to inarguable Transformers characters is senseless and leads to more arguments over what counts for a list and what doesn't. You're just causing more inconsistency and headaches for no benefit. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (EST)
I still hate the list pages for Gobots, I don't want to have to spread it further. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (EST)

Lists are not ideal. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:26, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Fair enough. It was just a thought -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)

== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Sick_Of_Arguing_About_GoBots_II]]

== RID Kre-O ==

Since we're unlikely to get any more Kre-O fiction, and all of the RID Kre-O articles are pretty sparse in content, maybe they should just be merged to the main RID character articles? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:27, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I'll be honest, I'm not averse to this at all. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:13, 8 March 2016 (EST)
::I guess nobody's really opposed to this or cares, so I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
After looking through the Kre-O pages... I feel like the comic-only cameos should all just be merged to whatever they're referencing. After merging all of the Iocus crap, it feels right to do the same to articles that are pretty much just "BWII Galvatron, but as a Kreon". They're very specific references removed from their context for really no good reason. Maybe not a popular suggestion, but throwing it out there. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:50, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::So long as it doesn't mess around with characters that freely switch between different incarnations of themselves, or are composite homages that can't be neatly classified. I can't think of any way those could be neatly merged into another page. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I'm mostly focusing on unique characters (Fractyl, Atari, Tarn, etc.) and not the big archetypes like Optimus or Bumblebee. Most characters with toys will be left alone. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:35, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm extremely cool with this. Never been big fan of giving them individual articles in the first place. Like, honestly, in a more organized world where this stuff hadn't been created on an incremental basis, "Fornax" almost certainly wouldn't be a thing and it'd all be Iocus. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:Again, no real objection, if a tepid "sure". I mean, I'm not really convinced that Kreons based on existing characters who DO have toys but no fiction (like a hefty chunk of the "Class" sets) really need to be split out. A page from Kreon Topspin seems... overly redundant. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:29, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I'm looking around more and it seems like there's only a select few that couldn't be encompassed by their main versions. Most of the Class series is guilty of that, but there's also lots of Kreons based on one-shot characters ([[Wingspan Hawk]], [[Barrage (Kre-O)]]). We have a lot of pages that are just "this exists and is obviously this other thing" from both the toyline and the comic. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:39, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::You probably are doing this, but be sure to add the "Kreons" category and such when condensing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:53, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:Ehhh... I disagree. I mean, the Kreon Class ones, sure, but I'm less certain on What about the likes of the [[Soundwave's Trap? Stop Operation Brainwash Humanity!|Soundwaves and Convoys]] and [[Enter the New Emperor of Destruction!? Stop Galvatron's Rampage!|Starscreams]]? I'd probably vote strong "yes" to merging the Class of 84/5 guys, weak "yes" to merging the fictionless Kreons (and maybe the non-Transformer comic cameos, I don't know), but a strong "no" to anyone who was actually in the comic. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::We do have a couple of examples where character pages have sections that cover more than one character already. The Masterforce transtectors and the BeCool cartoon come to mind. Does it really serve anything to give those tiny one-panel cameos in a referential comic their own pages? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:03, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::As I've noted before, there comes a point where we're just being pointlessly pedantic, making people jump through hoops (and incrementally hitting our bandwidth limits) for... no actual ''benefit'' near as I can tell. Seriously. What's the benefit? What is the purpose? "Consistency"? Sorry, this franchise has grown and mutated too big for us to try and cram everything into no-exceptions rules. We HAVE to be flexible and make exceptions in some places, and when it comes to overly-redundant pages, that's where I'm more than willing to make exceptions.
:::I'm down with low-content one-pages for one-panel ''unique'' characters to be certain, like the Hideous Brain Guy, but for Basically The Well-Known G1 Character But In Brick Form? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhn. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:45, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Should we merge <nowiki>[[Soundblaster (Kre-O)]] into [[Soundblaster (G1)]]?</nowiki> Their colors aren't exactly the same, but they're both black repaint clones of the main Soundwave. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:02, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
:Sure, whatever. If another independent G1 Soundblaster pops up, that's probably where they're going anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:54, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
So what are we doing about ''Kre-O'' toys who unambiguously represent a single established character? Back on March 25, Sipher undid the merger of ''Kre-O'' [[Ravage (Kre-O)|Ravage]], but on May 5, Chris merged ''Kre-O'' Megaplex. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 13:25, 15 May 2016 (EDT)

== Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures ==

(Slight re-editing of something I posted on the Allspark) I think we may need to put something in [[Template:Welcome|the welcome template]] and/or on [[Main Page/editing-tips|Main Page/editing-tips]] about how new users are unable to create pages because of all the spam stuff; it seems to be [[User talk:Foffy the Sheep#Extreme Editing Difficulties|confusing some people]]. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:45, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
:I've just reduced the timeout for creating new pages down to 6 hours, which should still slow down the spammers but not be quite as much of a burden on legit new users. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:50, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
Is any active admin still getting emails sent to the webmaster mailbox? I ask because I'm getting a ton of them: Looks like new IP/User Agent blocks, and I haven't touched this setup since... 2014? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 23:12, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

We now have a new captcha based on the [[Transformers Name Generator]], which should hopefully be harder for the spammers to crack. Also my apologies to the non-spammers caught up in the blocking - all of the user agent blocks have been rolled back by now, so hopefully no one should be blocked from viewing the site. (Also as per McFly above, I've redirected the webmaster email address to me) --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (EDT)
:I hope the new signup test is not too difficult - I notice we haven't had any new signups since implementing it. I changed the notice to be clearer and provided an example. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

== Memobots and Deskcepticons ==

For those not in the know, the Hasbro Facebook page posted a bunch of new "characters" for April Fools, The Memobots and the Deskcepticons. While awesome, there's very little material for each "character" to have its own page. (All there is are photoshopped pictures of office supplies, some tech-spec stats and some very brief blurbs.) I'm thinking maybe each "faction" could have a single page, listing each of its members, instead of a very bare page for each "character." Thoughts? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:53, 2 April 2016 (EDT)
: Just so long as they're represented here somehow. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 23:08, 2 April 2016 (EDT)

== Possible partnership with the German Transformers Wikia ==

I've been approached by the main admin of the German Transformers Wiki[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Abatesnz#Conflict_with_the_TFWiki.net] about forming a partnership with them. We've had a long running partnership with Wookieepedia, which is also hosted on Wikia. They'd link to our pages from their pages and vice versa. Possibly we could set them up as an interlanguage link - I'd have to look into what's involved. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:51, 7 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beast Wars reorganization ==

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Demonstration]]. It's evident that all of the conflicting continuities and crap is out of control, so this seems like the cleanest approach now. It's based on the movie approach we're using, since it's a pretty similar situation. Thoughts? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:23, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
:That's fine by me. The old chronological way is becoming a clusterfudge. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:33, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

==GoBots discussions consolidated==
Since we've been discussing this topic for literally years, I thought it would be useful to consolidate it all in one place, in order, with summaries of the key decisions. It can be daunting to keep track of it all, and in recent months the rules have changed several times. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots]]. Summaries could use some work, but I tried to stick to the simple facts without editorializing. I think the important thing with the summaries is that they succinctly say roughly what was discussed and what, if any, decisions were reached. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:47, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

== "Transformers Trilogy" manga ==

(Although I'm not sure if that's the actual title.) Turns out I have it on my hard drive: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ymumej4klqkttlu/AAA2AdRbHyvvxUU6kR6b-rBCa?dl=0]. Feel free to do with as you please. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

==Alternate Names links==

Looking at [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise's]] page, I see from the top he is sometimes known as '''Streetstar''' and '''Streetsmart'''. I know Streetstar comes from ''Wings'', but I don't know where Streetsmart comes from. I recommend a practice of making those "sometimes known as" bits into links that carry you down to the particular Fiction or Toy where the particular name comes from, like <nowiki>[[Streetwise (G1)#Wings Universe|Streetstar]]</nowiki>. Thoughts? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:20, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:I like the idea, but I would prefer ref notes to section links. Also, there are cases like Bluestreak/Silverstreak, where the alternate name is used in multiple places, and we'd have to decide how much detail we'd want to go into in those instances. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::Yeah, if an alternate name is used in multiple places, a reference note explanation attached to the name could better cover all of those in one go. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:42, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I would prefer to uses refs even when the name is only used in one place. I can't quite put it into words, but using section links for this purpose just feels...''wrong''. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:55, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::Could you try to put it in words? Because section links would be ''"Click here to find what you're looking for."'' Ref notes would be ''"Click here to go to some text at the bottom of the page to tell you where to look in the middle of the page to find what you're looking for."'' Seems like an unnecessary extra step. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::I think the section link wouldn't make it very clear that it's showing you where the name is from. It looks like it's going to send you to a different page or something, then just sends you to a different section of the same page and hopes you figure out what's going on.

:::::The ref note has an advantage in that it's already associated with addendums and citations. When the reader sees a ref note, they instantly know "this will show me some details about this bit of text", while a link says "This is going to send me to another page". -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 14:05, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::...I feel like the reader would have to be pretty stupid not to understand what the link was doing. "Slingshot is sometimes known as '''Quickslinger'''." Click the link, see a toy of Slingshot called Quickslinger, with http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slingshot_(G1) still in the address bar. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 14:21, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Ref notes would only be absolutely necessary if an alternate name is used in multiple places. I'd still rather use ref notes on all of them, but your way works just as well and it's not really worth arguing about any further. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:16, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
@Foffy: I don't see a problem for the cases I've mentioned, no, but I'm not convinced my idea is best for cases where a character is regularly known by multiple names. For instance, how would this apply to Hot Rod's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 15:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Prime is also called Miscellaneous Maximus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:24, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== characters without pages ==

i do not feel compelled to create pages for [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=1096168&oldid=1072705 Scarytown] or [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Insecticon_%28WFC%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096169 Scurry Down], do you?
--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:10, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Given that this character doesn't exist and he's telling the other injured Insecticon to "stay down," no, I don't. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::Chris McFeely edit summary: We went through this when the episode aired - he's telling the other Insecticon to "stay down."
:::Thanks. Can you link me to that discussion? (Not finding it on [[Talk:Insecticon_(WFC)]] or [[Talk:Toxicity]], maybe the Community Portal archives?) i have the DVD in my computer's disc drive right now and i really don't think he's saying "stay down"; i'm quite sure i hear another syllable in the middle there. (i also think Hardshell using the other Con's name makes more sense than telling him to stay down.) But like i said, it's hard to make out what he's saying. --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:37, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::I don't think there's even a discussion to link to, because editors just reverted anyone who tried to add it. He's not calling him "Scurrytown." I'm sorry, he's just not. It's the snarling voice Kaye uses. There's KIND of a "k-" sound in there, but there's no R. The Insecticon has just tried to get up, and Hardshell is telling it not to bother, and instead stay down and radio the ship. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== A suggestion to benefit the wiki ==

Hey everyone. I've noticed that this wiki lacks some templates that would be beneficial to have when it comes to linking articles. For example, if I want to link to the G1 Starscream page, I would have to write <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]</nowiki>. That's sort of a pain to do. Over on [http://www.ssbwiki.com/ SmashWiki], we use some templates to cut down on the amount of text needed to do that kind of linking. [http://www.ssbwiki.com/Template:SSB Here's an example].

If we implemented this, one would have to write <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki> if they wanted to link to that page. That cuts down on a lot of text.

Is this a good suggestion? Btw, I still think that pages such as [[Optimus Prime (WFC)]] should be called Optimus Prime (Aligned) instead. It makes ''way'' more sense to do it that way and would make this template process a bit easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Could be useful. But disambiguating by continuity family instead of franchise has been discussed to death and decided against repeatedly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::I know that it's a frequently argued topic, but I think it's more relevant than ever due to the fact that we have two franchises with the same name (RID). I mean, why are [[Steeljaw (RID)]] and [[Grimlock (RID)]] not characters from the same series? It makes no sense. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:01, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::: Part of the disambiguation by series, and not by continuity family, is because sometimes character names get re-used within a universe for different characters. For instance, we have [[Steeljaw (FOC)|Steeljaw]] the Autobot lion, and Steeljaw the Decepticon wolf, both of whom exist in the Aligned universe. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 14:05, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::The problem you're having is that you're expecting the disambig tags to convey information when that's not their actual job. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::It's not? Wouldn't it be simpler then to just go numerical by appearance? Optimus Prime (1), Optimus Prime (2), etc? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:32, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::Because then you'd have to memorise a list of numbers in order to link to the Optimus Prime that you wanted? If disambig tags were supposed to be a source of information, every single article would have one. Their actual job is to avoid having articles named the same thing. The continuity note, i.e. the ''first sentence of every article'', is the thing that's supposed to tell what franchise and continuity family a thing is from. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 15:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::That. The current disambig tags exist to help editors remember who's who while saving us from having to type "(RID 2015)" over and over. Would you be able to tell me offhand who "Blackout III" is? They are ultimately an editing convenience and are not meant to convey every single detail about a character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:12, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::::I can see how that would be a pain. I wasn't proposing that system, just trying to reconcile the idea that tags don't convey information.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::So that case would move further down the hierarchy. How does that affect the idea of starting with continuity family? And it is completely ignoring the fact that the (RID) tags (and the (Universe) tags) are ambiguous in the real world sense. True, they may not be ambiguous in the narrow wiki definition, but to new and casual readers the fact that the exact same tag can refer to two different series is confusing. We should not be increasing real world ambiguity ("Which RID series is this again?") just because it doesn't cause wiki-centric ambiguity. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

oh my god you guys, '''no, stop''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:I feel like disambiguation tag debates should be definitively banned, to be honest. They just go into circles and nothing ever changes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
Typing <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|]]</nowiki> also works, is only slightly longer than <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki>, and has the benefit of not including the overhead of expanding a template which adds processing time to any page when the site has to render it. That last one might not be a problem on a small wiki with only medium-sized pages like SmashWiki, but here it could be a big issue. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:That's great. I had no idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::It ''is'' kinda buried in the middle of [[Help:Editing]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:37, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Well, to anyone who actually contributed to the discussion, thanks for your input. I can see that this sort of template isn't really what this wiki is looking for, although I do think it would make things a little easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

As for disambiguation by continuity family versus franchise, I've been thinking about a potential compromise that I hope has not been brought up before: Would it be possible to do both types of disambiguation? Something like Optimus Prime (Aligned/WFC) or Steeljaw (Aligned/RID), where the first part would designate the continuity family and the second half would designate the origin franchise. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 09:58, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:Stop. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:05, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::That's neither respectful nor constructive. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:11, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:::Beating this dead horse again with overcomplicated proposals that miss the point of disambiguation tags isn't constructive, but here we are. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:26, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:This has been discussed time and again in the past and it always comes back to the current system of franchise disambiguation. Everyone who expresses disdain for changing this system has either been involved in or seen so many of the past discussions on this matter that they're just tired of seeing it brought up every time it gets brought up over and over again. So it's basically fruitless to suggest changing the disambiguation system from being how it currently is, as all the higher-ups are adamant about keeping it the way it is and would rather not have to repeat themselves from past discussions on why this system works as is and why changing it isn't a good idea. It's nothing against you, it's just that this subject is a touchy one that everyone's tired of retreading so much. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 11:33, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::Well, thanks for the best answer so far. To me, adding a couple more letters to the names of articles for the purpose of avoiding confusion doesn't seem like over-complicating. It became clear to me when I first brought this up that a compromise of some sort would be the most effective way to constructively and satisfactorily solve the problem. The reason this issue continues to be brought up consistently is because the system could be better. I remain hopeful that some well-received compromise will eventually pop up.

::I understand that people are frustrated at the commonality of this topic, but the "I/we disagree with you, so stop talking," way this problem has been handled by many people makes the wiki look bad imo. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:46, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

== How to request main page changes? ==

Hi! I'm fairly new here, so I'm sorry if this is a silly question. The main page seems to be edit-locked except for admins, which is an excellent idea. However, I'm used to having a place to request edits to locked pages - in this case, I'd probably mostly be asking for updates to the Rescue Bots "newest episodes" list. Does this wiki have one? If yes, where? Thanks for answering! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 17:02, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
:The current releases box actually runs off a separate template that anybody can edit - click the little 'V' in the corner of the box to access it and update to your heart's content! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 17:12, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
::I didn't even notice that. Thanks! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 19:23, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

== Anonymous Primal (BW) has lots of toys! You may be looking for Anonymous Primal (Animated) or Anonymous Primal (RID). ==

A [[Mirage_(G1)/toys|few]] [[Optimus_Prime_(G1)/toys|spot]] [[Megatron_(G1)/toys|checks]] suggest that when a character has enough toys that they warrant a separate page from the character's main article, the toys page does not link directly to a disambiguation page, even if the character does. Looks like [[Shockwave_(G1)/Marvel_Comics_continuity|fiction]] [[Wheeljack_(G1)/Generation_1_cartoon_continuity|sections]] don't have disambiguation links, either. How easily could disambiguation links (where applicable) be added to the {(suite)} template? So if you're trying to look up a toy and, whoa, hey, these aren't the droids i'm looking for, but that's the name on the box--maybe someone else has that name?

i bet you're thinking, "If you start by looking up the name on the box, you'll land on the disambig page." But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?

Maybe it's easy enough to find the disambig pages. But maybe we can make it easier. i just don't know how to edit templates, myself (and wouldn't edit them without asking).

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 23:45, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
:"But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?" Which doesn't happen. You are creating solutions to problems that only exist in your head. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:18, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
::What Saix said. If the links are sending someone to the wrong place, what needs to happen is that we fix them, not create solutions to problems that will never arise if everything is done properly. Also, I'd really rather not clutter the suite templates; they're specifically desgned to be small and non-intrusive, and sticking disambigs in them detracts from that. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:26, 30 May 2016 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-06-02T15:11:31Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, Template:Notecmn could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: Template:TransformersComicMagazin and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)
===Collapsable continuity notes?===
I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

Speaking of notes and templates, can we also scrub the IDW notes that say ''"[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]] was shorter than it should've been because [[Simon Furman]] was fired."'' and the Dreamwave notes that say ''"Because Dreamwave collapsed, plot threads were left dangling."''...unless those notes are ''specifically'' contributing something to the character's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:53, 15 January 2016 (EST)
:I'd say yes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:16, 15 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Another proposal after I had a thought just now: [[:File:H3 dashed overlines.jpg|dashed overlines]]. The difference should be enough to differentiate from the underlines on h2s, and they nicely group together related stuff. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:46, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Alternate names==
When we mention a character's alternate names (i.e, on X's page, we note that "he is sometimes known as '''Y'''), there seems to be a bit of confusion as to exactly ''where'' we do it. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Grapple_(G1)&oldid=1043677 Some pages]<ref>(EDIT: Grapple's alternate name has been moved to the bio, so the link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref> place such information near the top in the continuity note, whereas [[Octane|others]] put it at the end of the opening paragraph. Is there a policy on this? I don't particularly care one way or the other, I'd just like to see them made consistent. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:08, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I prefer them to be in the top rather than in the bio.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:54, 17 January 2016 (EST)
::The continuity notes are cluttered enough already. Put them at the end of the bio. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::: I think, barring the unusual case of an obscure alternate name that is seldom used, the end of the continuity note is the ideal place. But I'm not sure consistency is absolutely necessary, as long as the information is conveyed in an appropriate way.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I concur with Saix. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I prefer the end of the intro over the continuity note. It leaves more room for multiple names (in case a character has 2 or more alternate names) and also makes room for context (like, when and where and why is the character sometimes called by that other name). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:54, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::I prefer the end of the intro as well. Take a look at [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod&oldid=1046644 Hot Rod]. <ref>(EDIT: as of 18:11, 20 January 2016 (EST), they've been moved into the bio. The link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref>He has all his names in the continuity note, and it's a mess. If we're going to pick just one way to do it (and I think we should), it should be at the end of the intro. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::You've convinced me that the intro is a smarter spot. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 20 January 2016 (EST)
How about [[Vector Prime]]'s alternate names? He's never made a solid appearance using any of them, so should they be in both the intro and in the AVP story section? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:23, 21 January 2016 (EST)
: That feels like a great place to make an exception and only list them in the fiction section or the notes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:44, 21 January 2016 (EST)
{{reflist}}

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Convoy is also called Miscellaneous Magnus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names_links|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:25, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== Parodies ==

I think we should have one page that lists notable parodies and stuff. Just to get them out of the way. [[User:HarbringerOfDoom|HarbringerOfDoom]] ([[User talk:HarbringerOfDoom|talk]]) 08:29, 20 January 2016 (EST)

:They're already out of the way, by virtue of being not on this wiki. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::I noticed recently that the other place has started listing stuff like characters' appearances on ''Family Guy'' and ''Robot Chicken'' in their main profiles, which gives us even more reason not to. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I can see the appeal, but I suspect it would quickly get out of hand. Transformers gets referenced in a lot of pop culture. Every show, movie, and Web comic is somebody's favorite, so I suspect any such page would quickly become an unbearably long and tedious list. So what would that leave us with? A page saying Transformers often shows up in pop culture? I'm not sure there's any value to that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:13, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:You guys have got to just be doing this on purpose now. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (EST)
::::I will get myself banned before I will allow this wiki to cover Family Guy and Robot Chicken. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:23, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''''NO.''''' Like, a thousand times no. I believe similar discussions have been had in the past, and the answer was a resounding no. (I can't find that particular discussion at the moment; I'll post it here if I find it.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::::We have episodes of cartoons and issues of comics that are stubs and primary character articles that need to have their fiction sections filled out, but ok, yeah. Let's start pedantically listing every time ''Family Guy'' has referenced Transformers. That should be a priority. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:''<nowiki>**Condescending Wonka image**</nowiki>'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:00, 20 January 2016 (EST)
The only page that would make sense (to me) while keeping in line with the spirit for this wiki is a simple list of times that official product was used in movies and television.
*This toy was in such and such movie in year 19XX.
*Transformers episode so'n'so was seen the background of movie in year 200X.
*A number of toys were shown featured in McTV show in episode whatzitz.
References are out. Parodies are out, and it's only a single page as to not clutter up the rest (similar to what we do with unofficial Transformers guides.) --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] ([[User talk:Bluestreak7|talk]]) 02:36, 22 February 2016 (EST)
:I really don't see any potential benefit to that. Are we going to make a page full of stuff like "Some G1 toys showed up in ''Flight of the Navigator''" and stuff like that? Why? It's pointless, and it would just open the floodgates for more of the same pointless crap, not to mention how bloated and useless it would be. Before long, people will use that page as an argument for including bullshit from Family Guy and the Chevy commercial with the car that turns into a robot and god knows what else. Information about references to ''Transformers'' in other media is something for Wikipedia to cover. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:24, 22 February 2016 (EST)

== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of]]

== Is there a category for images from the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages? ==

Do we have a category for all the images posted on the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages like [[Ask Vector Prime]], [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]], etc? As I've been going through the [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|uncategorized images]], I've noticed that quite a few of them are from those Facebook pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:16, 8 February 2016 (EST)

== "Requested URL could not be retrieved" ==

I can't seem to find any kind of technical place to post this, so I'm just going to post it here in the hopes of getting some attention. For some reason, I've been locked out of the site; trying to access the website on either of my main computers results in a white page and an "ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved" message. I've tried clearing my cache, deleting cookies, all that stuff (I can still post on my phone). I suspect that it's some kind of internal server problem (I don't think I've done anything to break the wiki on my end), but I'm not sure? Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:09, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:That might have been me being too zealous with the spam blocking. I'll send you an email shortly. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:36, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:: Thank you! I will see if it works. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:56, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::Did you get the email? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:14, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::: sorry for the late response, it got put into junk mail. Clicking the link just takes me to a blocked site. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:43, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::OK, I think you should now be unblocked. Give it another try! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:57, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::: It worked! Many thanks! [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:03, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::::No problem - sorry about that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:05, 29 February 2016 (EST)

== Facebook-exclusive characters ==
Given the copious quantity of characters debuted through the Tornado and TransTech Facebook pages who have no toys and have yet to appear in any other fiction, would it be appropriate to create a "Facebook-only characters" subcategory of "Fiction-only characters"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:59, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Not a bad idea. I'd also be down for "Online-media exclusive characters" or something along those lines. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, that sounds worthwhile. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:19, 1 March 2016 (EST)

== Furthering the use of list articles ==

Looking at Chris McFeely's [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|sandbox]] for the GoBots list article, I think that maybe similar list articles would be a nice way to handle some of the minor Shattered Glass and Kre-O characters. Pages like [[Broadside (SG)]] are rather useless, and I think that consolidating such pages into a list article would lead to a better reader experience. (To save us from pointless page moves, I would suggest just turning the old pages into a redirect to the list article, keeping all the categories.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:38, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:No. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 19:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Would you care to elaborate on that? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::We only used a list for GoBots as a compromise for the endless debate. Applying that concept to inarguable Transformers characters is senseless and leads to more arguments over what counts for a list and what doesn't. You're just causing more inconsistency and headaches for no benefit. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (EST)
I still hate the list pages for Gobots, I don't want to have to spread it further. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (EST)

Lists are not ideal. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:26, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Fair enough. It was just a thought -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)

== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Sick_Of_Arguing_About_GoBots_II]]

== RID Kre-O ==

Since we're unlikely to get any more Kre-O fiction, and all of the RID Kre-O articles are pretty sparse in content, maybe they should just be merged to the main RID character articles? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:27, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I'll be honest, I'm not averse to this at all. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:13, 8 March 2016 (EST)
::I guess nobody's really opposed to this or cares, so I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
After looking through the Kre-O pages... I feel like the comic-only cameos should all just be merged to whatever they're referencing. After merging all of the Iocus crap, it feels right to do the same to articles that are pretty much just "BWII Galvatron, but as a Kreon". They're very specific references removed from their context for really no good reason. Maybe not a popular suggestion, but throwing it out there. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:50, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::So long as it doesn't mess around with characters that freely switch between different incarnations of themselves, or are composite homages that can't be neatly classified. I can't think of any way those could be neatly merged into another page. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I'm mostly focusing on unique characters (Fractyl, Atari, Tarn, etc.) and not the big archetypes like Optimus or Bumblebee. Most characters with toys will be left alone. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:35, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm extremely cool with this. Never been big fan of giving them individual articles in the first place. Like, honestly, in a more organized world where this stuff hadn't been created on an incremental basis, "Fornax" almost certainly wouldn't be a thing and it'd all be Iocus. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:Again, no real objection, if a tepid "sure". I mean, I'm not really convinced that Kreons based on existing characters who DO have toys but no fiction (like a hefty chunk of the "Class" sets) really need to be split out. A page from Kreon Topspin seems... overly redundant. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:29, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I'm looking around more and it seems like there's only a select few that couldn't be encompassed by their main versions. Most of the Class series is guilty of that, but there's also lots of Kreons based on one-shot characters ([[Wingspan Hawk]], [[Barrage (Kre-O)]]). We have a lot of pages that are just "this exists and is obviously this other thing" from both the toyline and the comic. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:39, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::You probably are doing this, but be sure to add the "Kreons" category and such when condensing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:53, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:Ehhh... I disagree. I mean, the Kreon Class ones, sure, but I'm less certain on What about the likes of the [[Soundwave's Trap? Stop Operation Brainwash Humanity!|Soundwaves and Convoys]] and [[Enter the New Emperor of Destruction!? Stop Galvatron's Rampage!|Starscreams]]? I'd probably vote strong "yes" to merging the Class of 84/5 guys, weak "yes" to merging the fictionless Kreons (and maybe the non-Transformer comic cameos, I don't know), but a strong "no" to anyone who was actually in the comic. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::We do have a couple of examples where character pages have sections that cover more than one character already. The Masterforce transtectors and the BeCool cartoon come to mind. Does it really serve anything to give those tiny one-panel cameos in a referential comic their own pages? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:03, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::As I've noted before, there comes a point where we're just being pointlessly pedantic, making people jump through hoops (and incrementally hitting our bandwidth limits) for... no actual ''benefit'' near as I can tell. Seriously. What's the benefit? What is the purpose? "Consistency"? Sorry, this franchise has grown and mutated too big for us to try and cram everything into no-exceptions rules. We HAVE to be flexible and make exceptions in some places, and when it comes to overly-redundant pages, that's where I'm more than willing to make exceptions.
:::I'm down with low-content one-pages for one-panel ''unique'' characters to be certain, like the Hideous Brain Guy, but for Basically The Well-Known G1 Character But In Brick Form? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhn. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:45, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Should we merge <nowiki>[[Soundblaster (Kre-O)]] into [[Soundblaster (G1)]]?</nowiki> Their colors aren't exactly the same, but they're both black repaint clones of the main Soundwave. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:02, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
:Sure, whatever. If another independent G1 Soundblaster pops up, that's probably where they're going anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:54, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
So what are we doing about ''Kre-O'' toys who unambiguously represent a single established character? Back on March 25, Sipher undid the merger of ''Kre-O'' [[Ravage (Kre-O)|Ravage]], but on May 5, Chris merged ''Kre-O'' Megaplex. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 13:25, 15 May 2016 (EDT)

== Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures ==

(Slight re-editing of something I posted on the Allspark) I think we may need to put something in [[Template:Welcome|the welcome template]] and/or on [[Main Page/editing-tips|Main Page/editing-tips]] about how new users are unable to create pages because of all the spam stuff; it seems to be [[User talk:Foffy the Sheep#Extreme Editing Difficulties|confusing some people]]. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:45, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
:I've just reduced the timeout for creating new pages down to 6 hours, which should still slow down the spammers but not be quite as much of a burden on legit new users. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:50, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
Is any active admin still getting emails sent to the webmaster mailbox? I ask because I'm getting a ton of them: Looks like new IP/User Agent blocks, and I haven't touched this setup since... 2014? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 23:12, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

We now have a new captcha based on the [[Transformers Name Generator]], which should hopefully be harder for the spammers to crack. Also my apologies to the non-spammers caught up in the blocking - all of the user agent blocks have been rolled back by now, so hopefully no one should be blocked from viewing the site. (Also as per McFly above, I've redirected the webmaster email address to me) --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (EDT)
:I hope the new signup test is not too difficult - I notice we haven't had any new signups since implementing it. I changed the notice to be clearer and provided an example. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

== Memobots and Deskcepticons ==

For those not in the know, the Hasbro Facebook page posted a bunch of new "characters" for April Fools, The Memobots and the Deskcepticons. While awesome, there's very little material for each "character" to have its own page. (All there is are photoshopped pictures of office supplies, some tech-spec stats and some very brief blurbs.) I'm thinking maybe each "faction" could have a single page, listing each of its members, instead of a very bare page for each "character." Thoughts? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:53, 2 April 2016 (EDT)
: Just so long as they're represented here somehow. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 23:08, 2 April 2016 (EDT)

== Possible partnership with the German Transformers Wikia ==

I've been approached by the main admin of the German Transformers Wiki[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Abatesnz#Conflict_with_the_TFWiki.net] about forming a partnership with them. We've had a long running partnership with Wookieepedia, which is also hosted on Wikia. They'd link to our pages from their pages and vice versa. Possibly we could set them up as an interlanguage link - I'd have to look into what's involved. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:51, 7 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beast Wars reorganization ==

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Demonstration]]. It's evident that all of the conflicting continuities and crap is out of control, so this seems like the cleanest approach now. It's based on the movie approach we're using, since it's a pretty similar situation. Thoughts? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:23, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
:That's fine by me. The old chronological way is becoming a clusterfudge. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:33, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

==GoBots discussions consolidated==
Since we've been discussing this topic for literally years, I thought it would be useful to consolidate it all in one place, in order, with summaries of the key decisions. It can be daunting to keep track of it all, and in recent months the rules have changed several times. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots]]. Summaries could use some work, but I tried to stick to the simple facts without editorializing. I think the important thing with the summaries is that they succinctly say roughly what was discussed and what, if any, decisions were reached. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:47, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

== "Transformers Trilogy" manga ==

(Although I'm not sure if that's the actual title.) Turns out I have it on my hard drive: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ymumej4klqkttlu/AAA2AdRbHyvvxUU6kR6b-rBCa?dl=0]. Feel free to do with as you please. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

==Alternate Names links==

Looking at [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise's]] page, I see from the top he is sometimes known as '''Streetstar''' and '''Streetsmart'''. I know Streetstar comes from ''Wings'', but I don't know where Streetsmart comes from. I recommend a practice of making those "sometimes known as" bits into links that carry you down to the particular Fiction or Toy where the particular name comes from, like <nowiki>[[Streetwise (G1)#Wings Universe|Streetstar]]</nowiki>. Thoughts? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:20, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:I like the idea, but I would prefer ref notes to section links. Also, there are cases like Bluestreak/Silverstreak, where the alternate name is used in multiple places, and we'd have to decide how much detail we'd want to go into in those instances. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::Yeah, if an alternate name is used in multiple places, a reference note explanation attached to the name could better cover all of those in one go. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:42, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I would prefer to uses refs even when the name is only used in one place. I can't quite put it into words, but using section links for this purpose just feels...''wrong''. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:55, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::Could you try to put it in words? Because section links would be ''"Click here to find what you're looking for."'' Ref notes would be ''"Click here to go to some text at the bottom of the page to tell you where to look in the middle of the page to find what you're looking for."'' Seems like an unnecessary extra step. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::I think the section link wouldn't make it very clear that it's showing you where the name is from. It looks like it's going to send you to a different page or something, then just sends you to a different section of the same page and hopes you figure out what's going on.

:::::The ref note has an advantage in that it's already associated with addendums and citations. When the reader sees a ref note, they instantly know "this will show me some details about this bit of text", while a link says "This is going to send me to another page". -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 14:05, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::...I feel like the reader would have to be pretty stupid not to understand what the link was doing. "Slingshot is sometimes known as '''Quickslinger'''." Click the link, see a toy of Slingshot called Quickslinger, with http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slingshot_(G1) still in the address bar. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 14:21, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Ref notes would only be absolutely necessary if an alternate name is used in multiple places. I'd still rather use ref notes on all of them, but your way works just as well and it's not really worth arguing about any further. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:16, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
@Foffy: I don't see a problem for the cases I've mentioned, no, but I'm not convinced my idea is best for cases where a character is regularly known by multiple names. For instance, how would this apply to Hot Rod's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 15:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Prime is also called Miscellaneous Maximus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:24, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== characters without pages ==

i do not feel compelled to create pages for [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=1096168&oldid=1072705 Scarytown] or [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Insecticon_%28WFC%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096169 Scurry Down], do you?
--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:10, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Given that this character doesn't exist and he's telling the other injured Insecticon to "stay down," no, I don't. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::Chris McFeely edit summary: We went through this when the episode aired - he's telling the other Insecticon to "stay down."
:::Thanks. Can you link me to that discussion? (Not finding it on [[Talk:Insecticon_(WFC)]] or [[Talk:Toxicity]], maybe the Community Portal archives?) i have the DVD in my computer's disc drive right now and i really don't think he's saying "stay down"; i'm quite sure i hear another syllable in the middle there. (i also think Hardshell using the other Con's name makes more sense than telling him to stay down.) But like i said, it's hard to make out what he's saying. --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:37, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::I don't think there's even a discussion to link to, because editors just reverted anyone who tried to add it. He's not calling him "Scurrytown." I'm sorry, he's just not. It's the snarling voice Kaye uses. There's KIND of a "k-" sound in there, but there's no R. The Insecticon has just tried to get up, and Hardshell is telling it not to bother, and instead stay down and radio the ship. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== A suggestion to benefit the wiki ==

Hey everyone. I've noticed that this wiki lacks some templates that would be beneficial to have when it comes to linking articles. For example, if I want to link to the G1 Starscream page, I would have to write <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]</nowiki>. That's sort of a pain to do. Over on [http://www.ssbwiki.com/ SmashWiki], we use some templates to cut down on the amount of text needed to do that kind of linking. [http://www.ssbwiki.com/Template:SSB Here's an example].

If we implemented this, one would have to write <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki> if they wanted to link to that page. That cuts down on a lot of text.

Is this a good suggestion? Btw, I still think that pages such as [[Optimus Prime (WFC)]] should be called Optimus Prime (Aligned) instead. It makes ''way'' more sense to do it that way and would make this template process a bit easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Could be useful. But disambiguating by continuity family instead of franchise has been discussed to death and decided against repeatedly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::I know that it's a frequently argued topic, but I think it's more relevant than ever due to the fact that we have two franchises with the same name (RID). I mean, why are [[Steeljaw (RID)]] and [[Grimlock (RID)]] not characters from the same series? It makes no sense. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:01, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::: Part of the disambiguation by series, and not by continuity family, is because sometimes character names get re-used within a universe for different characters. For instance, we have [[Steeljaw (FOC)|Steeljaw]] the Autobot lion, and Steeljaw the Decepticon wolf, both of whom exist in the Aligned universe. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 14:05, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::The problem you're having is that you're expecting the disambig tags to convey information when that's not their actual job. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::It's not? Wouldn't it be simpler then to just go numerical by appearance? Optimus Prime (1), Optimus Prime (2), etc? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:32, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::Because then you'd have to memorise a list of numbers in order to link to the Optimus Prime that you wanted? If disambig tags were supposed to be a source of information, every single article would have one. Their actual job is to avoid having articles named the same thing. The continuity note, i.e. the ''first sentence of every article'', is the thing that's supposed to tell what franchise and continuity family a thing is from. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 15:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::That. The current disambig tags exist to help editors remember who's who while saving us from having to type "(RID 2015)" over and over. Would you be able to tell me offhand who "Blackout III" is? They are ultimately an editing convenience and are not meant to convey every single detail about a character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:12, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::::I can see how that would be a pain. I wasn't proposing that system, just trying to reconcile the idea that tags don't convey information.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::So that case would move further down the hierarchy. How does that affect the idea of starting with continuity family? And it is completely ignoring the fact that the (RID) tags (and the (Universe) tags) are ambiguous in the real world sense. True, they may not be ambiguous in the narrow wiki definition, but to new and casual readers the fact that the exact same tag can refer to two different series is confusing. We should not be increasing real world ambiguity ("Which RID series is this again?") just because it doesn't cause wiki-centric ambiguity. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

oh my god you guys, '''no, stop''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:I feel like disambiguation tag debates should be definitively banned, to be honest. They just go into circles and nothing ever changes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
Typing <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|]]</nowiki> also works, is only slightly longer than <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki>, and has the benefit of not including the overhead of expanding a template which adds processing time to any page when the site has to render it. That last one might not be a problem on a small wiki with only medium-sized pages like SmashWiki, but here it could be a big issue. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:That's great. I had no idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::It ''is'' kinda buried in the middle of [[Help:Editing]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:37, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Well, to anyone who actually contributed to the discussion, thanks for your input. I can see that this sort of template isn't really what this wiki is looking for, although I do think it would make things a little easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

As for disambiguation by continuity family versus franchise, I've been thinking about a potential compromise that I hope has not been brought up before: Would it be possible to do both types of disambiguation? Something like Optimus Prime (Aligned/WFC) or Steeljaw (Aligned/RID), where the first part would designate the continuity family and the second half would designate the origin franchise. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 09:58, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
:Stop. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:05, 2 June 2016 (EDT)
::That's neither respectful nor constructive. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:11, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

== How to request main page changes? ==

Hi! I'm fairly new here, so I'm sorry if this is a silly question. The main page seems to be edit-locked except for admins, which is an excellent idea. However, I'm used to having a place to request edits to locked pages - in this case, I'd probably mostly be asking for updates to the Rescue Bots "newest episodes" list. Does this wiki have one? If yes, where? Thanks for answering! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 17:02, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
:The current releases box actually runs off a separate template that anybody can edit - click the little 'V' in the corner of the box to access it and update to your heart's content! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 17:12, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
::I didn't even notice that. Thanks! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 19:23, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

== Anonymous Primal (BW) has lots of toys! You may be looking for Anonymous Primal (Animated) or Anonymous Primal (RID). ==

A [[Mirage_(G1)/toys|few]] [[Optimus_Prime_(G1)/toys|spot]] [[Megatron_(G1)/toys|checks]] suggest that when a character has enough toys that they warrant a separate page from the character's main article, the toys page does not link directly to a disambiguation page, even if the character does. Looks like [[Shockwave_(G1)/Marvel_Comics_continuity|fiction]] [[Wheeljack_(G1)/Generation_1_cartoon_continuity|sections]] don't have disambiguation links, either. How easily could disambiguation links (where applicable) be added to the {(suite)} template? So if you're trying to look up a toy and, whoa, hey, these aren't the droids i'm looking for, but that's the name on the box--maybe someone else has that name?

i bet you're thinking, "If you start by looking up the name on the box, you'll land on the disambig page." But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?

Maybe it's easy enough to find the disambig pages. But maybe we can make it easier. i just don't know how to edit templates, myself (and wouldn't edit them without asking).

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 23:45, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
:"But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?" Which doesn't happen. You are creating solutions to problems that only exist in your head. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:18, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
::What Saix said. If the links are sending someone to the wrong place, what needs to happen is that we fix them, not create solutions to problems that will never arise if everything is done properly. Also, I'd really rather not clutter the suite templates; they're specifically desgned to be small and non-intrusive, and sticking disambigs in them detracts from that. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:26, 30 May 2016 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-06-02T13:58:24Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */ Please be respectful.

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, Template:Notecmn could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: Template:TransformersComicMagazin and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)
===Collapsable continuity notes?===
I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

Speaking of notes and templates, can we also scrub the IDW notes that say ''"[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]] was shorter than it should've been because [[Simon Furman]] was fired."'' and the Dreamwave notes that say ''"Because Dreamwave collapsed, plot threads were left dangling."''...unless those notes are ''specifically'' contributing something to the character's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:53, 15 January 2016 (EST)
:I'd say yes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:16, 15 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Another proposal after I had a thought just now: [[:File:H3 dashed overlines.jpg|dashed overlines]]. The difference should be enough to differentiate from the underlines on h2s, and they nicely group together related stuff. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:46, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Alternate names==
When we mention a character's alternate names (i.e, on X's page, we note that "he is sometimes known as '''Y'''), there seems to be a bit of confusion as to exactly ''where'' we do it. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Grapple_(G1)&oldid=1043677 Some pages]<ref>(EDIT: Grapple's alternate name has been moved to the bio, so the link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref> place such information near the top in the continuity note, whereas [[Octane|others]] put it at the end of the opening paragraph. Is there a policy on this? I don't particularly care one way or the other, I'd just like to see them made consistent. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:08, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I prefer them to be in the top rather than in the bio.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:54, 17 January 2016 (EST)
::The continuity notes are cluttered enough already. Put them at the end of the bio. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::: I think, barring the unusual case of an obscure alternate name that is seldom used, the end of the continuity note is the ideal place. But I'm not sure consistency is absolutely necessary, as long as the information is conveyed in an appropriate way.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I concur with Saix. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I prefer the end of the intro over the continuity note. It leaves more room for multiple names (in case a character has 2 or more alternate names) and also makes room for context (like, when and where and why is the character sometimes called by that other name). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:54, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::I prefer the end of the intro as well. Take a look at [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod&oldid=1046644 Hot Rod]. <ref>(EDIT: as of 18:11, 20 January 2016 (EST), they've been moved into the bio. The link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref>He has all his names in the continuity note, and it's a mess. If we're going to pick just one way to do it (and I think we should), it should be at the end of the intro. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::You've convinced me that the intro is a smarter spot. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 20 January 2016 (EST)
How about [[Vector Prime]]'s alternate names? He's never made a solid appearance using any of them, so should they be in both the intro and in the AVP story section? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:23, 21 January 2016 (EST)
: That feels like a great place to make an exception and only list them in the fiction section or the notes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:44, 21 January 2016 (EST)
{{reflist}}

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Convoy is also called Miscellaneous Magnus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names_links|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:25, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== Parodies ==

I think we should have one page that lists notable parodies and stuff. Just to get them out of the way. [[User:HarbringerOfDoom|HarbringerOfDoom]] ([[User talk:HarbringerOfDoom|talk]]) 08:29, 20 January 2016 (EST)

:They're already out of the way, by virtue of being not on this wiki. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::I noticed recently that the other place has started listing stuff like characters' appearances on ''Family Guy'' and ''Robot Chicken'' in their main profiles, which gives us even more reason not to. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I can see the appeal, but I suspect it would quickly get out of hand. Transformers gets referenced in a lot of pop culture. Every show, movie, and Web comic is somebody's favorite, so I suspect any such page would quickly become an unbearably long and tedious list. So what would that leave us with? A page saying Transformers often shows up in pop culture? I'm not sure there's any value to that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:13, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:You guys have got to just be doing this on purpose now. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (EST)
::::I will get myself banned before I will allow this wiki to cover Family Guy and Robot Chicken. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:23, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''''NO.''''' Like, a thousand times no. I believe similar discussions have been had in the past, and the answer was a resounding no. (I can't find that particular discussion at the moment; I'll post it here if I find it.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::::We have episodes of cartoons and issues of comics that are stubs and primary character articles that need to have their fiction sections filled out, but ok, yeah. Let's start pedantically listing every time ''Family Guy'' has referenced Transformers. That should be a priority. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:''<nowiki>**Condescending Wonka image**</nowiki>'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:00, 20 January 2016 (EST)
The only page that would make sense (to me) while keeping in line with the spirit for this wiki is a simple list of times that official product was used in movies and television.
*This toy was in such and such movie in year 19XX.
*Transformers episode so'n'so was seen the background of movie in year 200X.
*A number of toys were shown featured in McTV show in episode whatzitz.
References are out. Parodies are out, and it's only a single page as to not clutter up the rest (similar to what we do with unofficial Transformers guides.) --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] ([[User talk:Bluestreak7|talk]]) 02:36, 22 February 2016 (EST)
:I really don't see any potential benefit to that. Are we going to make a page full of stuff like "Some G1 toys showed up in ''Flight of the Navigator''" and stuff like that? Why? It's pointless, and it would just open the floodgates for more of the same pointless crap, not to mention how bloated and useless it would be. Before long, people will use that page as an argument for including bullshit from Family Guy and the Chevy commercial with the car that turns into a robot and god knows what else. Information about references to ''Transformers'' in other media is something for Wikipedia to cover. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:24, 22 February 2016 (EST)

== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of]]

== Is there a category for images from the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages? ==

Do we have a category for all the images posted on the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages like [[Ask Vector Prime]], [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]], etc? As I've been going through the [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|uncategorized images]], I've noticed that quite a few of them are from those Facebook pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:16, 8 February 2016 (EST)

== "Requested URL could not be retrieved" ==

I can't seem to find any kind of technical place to post this, so I'm just going to post it here in the hopes of getting some attention. For some reason, I've been locked out of the site; trying to access the website on either of my main computers results in a white page and an "ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved" message. I've tried clearing my cache, deleting cookies, all that stuff (I can still post on my phone). I suspect that it's some kind of internal server problem (I don't think I've done anything to break the wiki on my end), but I'm not sure? Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:09, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:That might have been me being too zealous with the spam blocking. I'll send you an email shortly. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:36, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:: Thank you! I will see if it works. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:56, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::Did you get the email? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:14, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::: sorry for the late response, it got put into junk mail. Clicking the link just takes me to a blocked site. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:43, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::OK, I think you should now be unblocked. Give it another try! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:57, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::: It worked! Many thanks! [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:03, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::::No problem - sorry about that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:05, 29 February 2016 (EST)

== Facebook-exclusive characters ==
Given the copious quantity of characters debuted through the Tornado and TransTech Facebook pages who have no toys and have yet to appear in any other fiction, would it be appropriate to create a "Facebook-only characters" subcategory of "Fiction-only characters"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:59, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Not a bad idea. I'd also be down for "Online-media exclusive characters" or something along those lines. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, that sounds worthwhile. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:19, 1 March 2016 (EST)

== Furthering the use of list articles ==

Looking at Chris McFeely's [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|sandbox]] for the GoBots list article, I think that maybe similar list articles would be a nice way to handle some of the minor Shattered Glass and Kre-O characters. Pages like [[Broadside (SG)]] are rather useless, and I think that consolidating such pages into a list article would lead to a better reader experience. (To save us from pointless page moves, I would suggest just turning the old pages into a redirect to the list article, keeping all the categories.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:38, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:No. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 19:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Would you care to elaborate on that? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::We only used a list for GoBots as a compromise for the endless debate. Applying that concept to inarguable Transformers characters is senseless and leads to more arguments over what counts for a list and what doesn't. You're just causing more inconsistency and headaches for no benefit. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (EST)
I still hate the list pages for Gobots, I don't want to have to spread it further. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (EST)

Lists are not ideal. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:26, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Fair enough. It was just a thought -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)

== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Sick_Of_Arguing_About_GoBots_II]]

== RID Kre-O ==

Since we're unlikely to get any more Kre-O fiction, and all of the RID Kre-O articles are pretty sparse in content, maybe they should just be merged to the main RID character articles? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:27, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I'll be honest, I'm not averse to this at all. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:13, 8 March 2016 (EST)
::I guess nobody's really opposed to this or cares, so I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
After looking through the Kre-O pages... I feel like the comic-only cameos should all just be merged to whatever they're referencing. After merging all of the Iocus crap, it feels right to do the same to articles that are pretty much just "BWII Galvatron, but as a Kreon". They're very specific references removed from their context for really no good reason. Maybe not a popular suggestion, but throwing it out there. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:50, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::So long as it doesn't mess around with characters that freely switch between different incarnations of themselves, or are composite homages that can't be neatly classified. I can't think of any way those could be neatly merged into another page. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I'm mostly focusing on unique characters (Fractyl, Atari, Tarn, etc.) and not the big archetypes like Optimus or Bumblebee. Most characters with toys will be left alone. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:35, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm extremely cool with this. Never been big fan of giving them individual articles in the first place. Like, honestly, in a more organized world where this stuff hadn't been created on an incremental basis, "Fornax" almost certainly wouldn't be a thing and it'd all be Iocus. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:Again, no real objection, if a tepid "sure". I mean, I'm not really convinced that Kreons based on existing characters who DO have toys but no fiction (like a hefty chunk of the "Class" sets) really need to be split out. A page from Kreon Topspin seems... overly redundant. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:29, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I'm looking around more and it seems like there's only a select few that couldn't be encompassed by their main versions. Most of the Class series is guilty of that, but there's also lots of Kreons based on one-shot characters ([[Wingspan Hawk]], [[Barrage (Kre-O)]]). We have a lot of pages that are just "this exists and is obviously this other thing" from both the toyline and the comic. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:39, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::You probably are doing this, but be sure to add the "Kreons" category and such when condensing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:53, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:Ehhh... I disagree. I mean, the Kreon Class ones, sure, but I'm less certain on What about the likes of the [[Soundwave's Trap? Stop Operation Brainwash Humanity!|Soundwaves and Convoys]] and [[Enter the New Emperor of Destruction!? Stop Galvatron's Rampage!|Starscreams]]? I'd probably vote strong "yes" to merging the Class of 84/5 guys, weak "yes" to merging the fictionless Kreons (and maybe the non-Transformer comic cameos, I don't know), but a strong "no" to anyone who was actually in the comic. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::We do have a couple of examples where character pages have sections that cover more than one character already. The Masterforce transtectors and the BeCool cartoon come to mind. Does it really serve anything to give those tiny one-panel cameos in a referential comic their own pages? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:03, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::As I've noted before, there comes a point where we're just being pointlessly pedantic, making people jump through hoops (and incrementally hitting our bandwidth limits) for... no actual ''benefit'' near as I can tell. Seriously. What's the benefit? What is the purpose? "Consistency"? Sorry, this franchise has grown and mutated too big for us to try and cram everything into no-exceptions rules. We HAVE to be flexible and make exceptions in some places, and when it comes to overly-redundant pages, that's where I'm more than willing to make exceptions.
:::I'm down with low-content one-pages for one-panel ''unique'' characters to be certain, like the Hideous Brain Guy, but for Basically The Well-Known G1 Character But In Brick Form? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhn. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:45, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Should we merge <nowiki>[[Soundblaster (Kre-O)]] into [[Soundblaster (G1)]]?</nowiki> Their colors aren't exactly the same, but they're both black repaint clones of the main Soundwave. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:02, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
:Sure, whatever. If another independent G1 Soundblaster pops up, that's probably where they're going anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:54, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
So what are we doing about ''Kre-O'' toys who unambiguously represent a single established character? Back on March 25, Sipher undid the merger of ''Kre-O'' [[Ravage (Kre-O)|Ravage]], but on May 5, Chris merged ''Kre-O'' Megaplex. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 13:25, 15 May 2016 (EDT)

== Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures ==

(Slight re-editing of something I posted on the Allspark) I think we may need to put something in [[Template:Welcome|the welcome template]] and/or on [[Main Page/editing-tips|Main Page/editing-tips]] about how new users are unable to create pages because of all the spam stuff; it seems to be [[User talk:Foffy the Sheep#Extreme Editing Difficulties|confusing some people]]. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:45, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
:I've just reduced the timeout for creating new pages down to 6 hours, which should still slow down the spammers but not be quite as much of a burden on legit new users. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:50, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
Is any active admin still getting emails sent to the webmaster mailbox? I ask because I'm getting a ton of them: Looks like new IP/User Agent blocks, and I haven't touched this setup since... 2014? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 23:12, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

We now have a new captcha based on the [[Transformers Name Generator]], which should hopefully be harder for the spammers to crack. Also my apologies to the non-spammers caught up in the blocking - all of the user agent blocks have been rolled back by now, so hopefully no one should be blocked from viewing the site. (Also as per McFly above, I've redirected the webmaster email address to me) --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (EDT)
:I hope the new signup test is not too difficult - I notice we haven't had any new signups since implementing it. I changed the notice to be clearer and provided an example. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

== Memobots and Deskcepticons ==

For those not in the know, the Hasbro Facebook page posted a bunch of new "characters" for April Fools, The Memobots and the Deskcepticons. While awesome, there's very little material for each "character" to have its own page. (All there is are photoshopped pictures of office supplies, some tech-spec stats and some very brief blurbs.) I'm thinking maybe each "faction" could have a single page, listing each of its members, instead of a very bare page for each "character." Thoughts? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:53, 2 April 2016 (EDT)
: Just so long as they're represented here somehow. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 23:08, 2 April 2016 (EDT)

== Possible partnership with the German Transformers Wikia ==

I've been approached by the main admin of the German Transformers Wiki[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Abatesnz#Conflict_with_the_TFWiki.net] about forming a partnership with them. We've had a long running partnership with Wookieepedia, which is also hosted on Wikia. They'd link to our pages from their pages and vice versa. Possibly we could set them up as an interlanguage link - I'd have to look into what's involved. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:51, 7 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beast Wars reorganization ==

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Demonstration]]. It's evident that all of the conflicting continuities and crap is out of control, so this seems like the cleanest approach now. It's based on the movie approach we're using, since it's a pretty similar situation. Thoughts? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:23, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
:That's fine by me. The old chronological way is becoming a clusterfudge. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:33, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

==GoBots discussions consolidated==
Since we've been discussing this topic for literally years, I thought it would be useful to consolidate it all in one place, in order, with summaries of the key decisions. It can be daunting to keep track of it all, and in recent months the rules have changed several times. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots]]. Summaries could use some work, but I tried to stick to the simple facts without editorializing. I think the important thing with the summaries is that they succinctly say roughly what was discussed and what, if any, decisions were reached. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:47, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

== "Transformers Trilogy" manga ==

(Although I'm not sure if that's the actual title.) Turns out I have it on my hard drive: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ymumej4klqkttlu/AAA2AdRbHyvvxUU6kR6b-rBCa?dl=0]. Feel free to do with as you please. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

==Alternate Names links==

Looking at [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise's]] page, I see from the top he is sometimes known as '''Streetstar''' and '''Streetsmart'''. I know Streetstar comes from ''Wings'', but I don't know where Streetsmart comes from. I recommend a practice of making those "sometimes known as" bits into links that carry you down to the particular Fiction or Toy where the particular name comes from, like <nowiki>[[Streetwise (G1)#Wings Universe|Streetstar]]</nowiki>. Thoughts? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:20, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:I like the idea, but I would prefer ref notes to section links. Also, there are cases like Bluestreak/Silverstreak, where the alternate name is used in multiple places, and we'd have to decide how much detail we'd want to go into in those instances. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::Yeah, if an alternate name is used in multiple places, a reference note explanation attached to the name could better cover all of those in one go. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:42, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I would prefer to uses refs even when the name is only used in one place. I can't quite put it into words, but using section links for this purpose just feels...''wrong''. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:55, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::Could you try to put it in words? Because section links would be ''"Click here to find what you're looking for."'' Ref notes would be ''"Click here to go to some text at the bottom of the page to tell you where to look in the middle of the page to find what you're looking for."'' Seems like an unnecessary extra step. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::I think the section link wouldn't make it very clear that it's showing you where the name is from. It looks like it's going to send you to a different page or something, then just sends you to a different section of the same page and hopes you figure out what's going on.

:::::The ref note has an advantage in that it's already associated with addendums and citations. When the reader sees a ref note, they instantly know "this will show me some details about this bit of text", while a link says "This is going to send me to another page". -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 14:05, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::...I feel like the reader would have to be pretty stupid not to understand what the link was doing. "Slingshot is sometimes known as '''Quickslinger'''." Click the link, see a toy of Slingshot called Quickslinger, with http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slingshot_(G1) still in the address bar. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 14:21, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Ref notes would only be absolutely necessary if an alternate name is used in multiple places. I'd still rather use ref notes on all of them, but your way works just as well and it's not really worth arguing about any further. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:16, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
@Foffy: I don't see a problem for the cases I've mentioned, no, but I'm not convinced my idea is best for cases where a character is regularly known by multiple names. For instance, how would this apply to Hot Rod's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 15:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Prime is also called Miscellaneous Maximus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:24, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== characters without pages ==

i do not feel compelled to create pages for [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=1096168&oldid=1072705 Scarytown] or [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Insecticon_%28WFC%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096169 Scurry Down], do you?
--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:10, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Given that this character doesn't exist and he's telling the other injured Insecticon to "stay down," no, I don't. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::Chris McFeely edit summary: We went through this when the episode aired - he's telling the other Insecticon to "stay down."
:::Thanks. Can you link me to that discussion? (Not finding it on [[Talk:Insecticon_(WFC)]] or [[Talk:Toxicity]], maybe the Community Portal archives?) i have the DVD in my computer's disc drive right now and i really don't think he's saying "stay down"; i'm quite sure i hear another syllable in the middle there. (i also think Hardshell using the other Con's name makes more sense than telling him to stay down.) But like i said, it's hard to make out what he's saying. --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:37, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::I don't think there's even a discussion to link to, because editors just reverted anyone who tried to add it. He's not calling him "Scurrytown." I'm sorry, he's just not. It's the snarling voice Kaye uses. There's KIND of a "k-" sound in there, but there's no R. The Insecticon has just tried to get up, and Hardshell is telling it not to bother, and instead stay down and radio the ship. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== A suggestion to benefit the wiki ==

Hey everyone. I've noticed that this wiki lacks some templates that would be beneficial to have when it comes to linking articles. For example, if I want to link to the G1 Starscream page, I would have to write <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]</nowiki>. That's sort of a pain to do. Over on [http://www.ssbwiki.com/ SmashWiki], we use some templates to cut down on the amount of text needed to do that kind of linking. [http://www.ssbwiki.com/Template:SSB Here's an example].

If we implemented this, one would have to write <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki> if they wanted to link to that page. That cuts down on a lot of text.

Is this a good suggestion? Btw, I still think that pages such as [[Optimus Prime (WFC)]] should be called Optimus Prime (Aligned) instead. It makes ''way'' more sense to do it that way and would make this template process a bit easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Could be useful. But disambiguating by continuity family instead of franchise has been discussed to death and decided against repeatedly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::I know that it's a frequently argued topic, but I think it's more relevant than ever due to the fact that we have two franchises with the same name (RID). I mean, why are [[Steeljaw (RID)]] and [[Grimlock (RID)]] not characters from the same series? It makes no sense. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:01, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::: Part of the disambiguation by series, and not by continuity family, is because sometimes character names get re-used within a universe for different characters. For instance, we have [[Steeljaw (FOC)|Steeljaw]] the Autobot lion, and Steeljaw the Decepticon wolf, both of whom exist in the Aligned universe. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 14:05, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::The problem you're having is that you're expecting the disambig tags to convey information when that's not their actual job. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::It's not? Wouldn't it be simpler then to just go numerical by appearance? Optimus Prime (1), Optimus Prime (2), etc? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:32, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::Because then you'd have to memorise a list of numbers in order to link to the Optimus Prime that you wanted? If disambig tags were supposed to be a source of information, every single article would have one. Their actual job is to avoid having articles named the same thing. The continuity note, i.e. the ''first sentence of every article'', is the thing that's supposed to tell what franchise and continuity family a thing is from. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 15:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::That. The current disambig tags exist to help editors remember who's who while saving us from having to type "(RID 2015)" over and over. Would you be able to tell me offhand who "Blackout III" is? They are ultimately an editing convenience and are not meant to convey every single detail about a character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:12, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::::I can see how that would be a pain. I wasn't proposing that system, just trying to reconcile the idea that tags don't convey information.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::So that case would move further down the hierarchy. How does that affect the idea of starting with continuity family? And it is completely ignoring the fact that the (RID) tags (and the (Universe) tags) are ambiguous in the real world sense. True, they may not be ambiguous in the narrow wiki definition, but to new and casual readers the fact that the exact same tag can refer to two different series is confusing. We should not be increasing real world ambiguity ("Which RID series is this again?") just because it doesn't cause wiki-centric ambiguity. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

oh my god you guys, '''no, stop''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:I feel like disambiguation tag debates should be definitively banned, to be honest. They just go into circles and nothing ever changes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
Typing <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|]]</nowiki> also works, is only slightly longer than <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki>, and has the benefit of not including the overhead of expanding a template which adds processing time to any page when the site has to render it. That last one might not be a problem on a small wiki with only medium-sized pages like SmashWiki, but here it could be a big issue. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:That's great. I had no idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:42, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::It ''is'' kinda buried in the middle of [[Help:Editing]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:37, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Well, to anyone who actually contributed to the discussion, thanks for your input. I can see that this sort of template isn't really what this wiki is looking for, although I do think it would make things a little easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

As for disambiguation by continuity family versus franchise, I've been thinking about a potential compromise that I hope has not been brought up before: Would it be possible to do both types of disambiguation? Something like Optimus Prime (Aligned/WFC) or Steeljaw (Aligned/RID), where the first part would designate the continuity family and the second half would designate the origin franchise. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 09:58, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

== How to request main page changes? ==

Hi! I'm fairly new here, so I'm sorry if this is a silly question. The main page seems to be edit-locked except for admins, which is an excellent idea. However, I'm used to having a place to request edits to locked pages - in this case, I'd probably mostly be asking for updates to the Rescue Bots "newest episodes" list. Does this wiki have one? If yes, where? Thanks for answering! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 17:02, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
:The current releases box actually runs off a separate template that anybody can edit - click the little 'V' in the corner of the box to access it and update to your heart's content! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 17:12, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
::I didn't even notice that. Thanks! [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 19:23, 25 May 2016 (EDT)

== Anonymous Primal (BW) has lots of toys! You may be looking for Anonymous Primal (Animated) or Anonymous Primal (RID). ==

A [[Mirage_(G1)/toys|few]] [[Optimus_Prime_(G1)/toys|spot]] [[Megatron_(G1)/toys|checks]] suggest that when a character has enough toys that they warrant a separate page from the character's main article, the toys page does not link directly to a disambiguation page, even if the character does. Looks like [[Shockwave_(G1)/Marvel_Comics_continuity|fiction]] [[Wheeljack_(G1)/Generation_1_cartoon_continuity|sections]] don't have disambiguation links, either. How easily could disambiguation links (where applicable) be added to the {(suite)} template? So if you're trying to look up a toy and, whoa, hey, these aren't the droids i'm looking for, but that's the name on the box--maybe someone else has that name?

i bet you're thinking, "If you start by looking up the name on the box, you'll land on the disambig page." But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?

Maybe it's easy enough to find the disambig pages. But maybe we can make it easier. i just don't know how to edit templates, myself (and wouldn't edit them without asking).

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 23:45, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
:"But what if an internal link on the wiki sends you to /toys or /IDW_Generation_1_continuity or whatever, and it's not the right namesake?" Which doesn't happen. You are creating solutions to problems that only exist in your head. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:18, 30 May 2016 (EDT)
::What Saix said. If the links are sending someone to the wrong place, what needs to happen is that we fix them, not create solutions to problems that will never arise if everything is done properly. Also, I'd really rather not clutter the suite templates; they're specifically desgned to be small and non-intrusive, and sticking disambigs in them detracts from that. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:26, 30 May 2016 (EDT)

Fallout (episode)

2016-06-01T15:17:41Z

John3637881: /* Continuity notes */

{{disambig3|Fallout}}
{{episode
|series=BMtoon
|ep=14
|image=Fallout title.jpg
|caption=War. War never changes.
|title="Fallout"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[February 9]], 2000
|written by=[[Bob Skir|Robert N. Skir]]<br />[[Marty Isenberg]]
|directed by=[[Raul Sanchez Inglis]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''After releasing a doomsday weapon, Optimus Primal must face the consequences of his actions.'''

==Synopsis==
The storm continues to rage, as [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (controlling the lethal [[Plasma Energy Chamber]]) and [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (wielding the deadly [[Key to Vector Sigma]]) fight, pushing their energies back and forth.

[[Image:Fallout Primal void.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Open the pod bay doors, Teletraan.]]
Optimus dissolves and ifnds himself in [[Allspark|Matrix]] again, seeing a vision of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] destroyed. He lashes out and blames Megatron, who takes no credit. Cybertron is doomed not because of Megatron's actions, but because of ''Primal''. Suddenly, Optimus finds himself back on prehistoric [[Earth]], where he's attacked by a green-eyed copy of himself. The doppelganger scolds Primal for his fanatical behavior and pushes him off a cliff, sending him plummeting back into space.

Faces come and go, and he finds himself being blamed by his [[Maximal]]s, who tell him that he's failed them. Primal realizes that ''he'' must make his own decisions, not merely follow the commands of the [[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]]. The Oracle acknowledges this fact, but tells him that his fate still lies with him.

The arrival of another old friend, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], comforts him. Rhinox acknowledges his misdeeds as Tankor, and tells his old friend that he chooses to stay in the Matrix. Primal shoots through another tunnel where the faces of [[Transformer]]s he has yet to encounter flash before him and finds himself back in the heated battle. Taking control of both energies, he redirects them back into the Matrix itself. The remaining Maximals reawaken, back in their techno-organic bodies and free of the Key's energies.

[[Image:Fallout Megatron disintegrates.jpg|right|thumb|200px|[[Gold Plastic Syndrome]] claims another victim.]]
With Megatron gone and the [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s rendered inert, the Maximals are the only active Cybertronians on the planet. Finding one another, the surviving Maximals head to the throne room in the Citadel, only to find the bodies of their former friends—and foes. Megatron's body crumbles to dust, leaving only his control-shell. When [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] touches the inert body of [[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]], it falls to pieces. Cheetor looks at Optimus Primal's flattened body, lamenting the fallen "Big Bot". Unsympathetic, [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] says that [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] only ever wanted him out of the way. Cheetor tells Nightscream off, but reluctantly takes control anyway.

Outside, Rattrap plugs into Cybertron's system, only to find that the planet is, in fact, brain-dead. But things change when [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] and [[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]] show up, and the Maximals and Vehicons prepare for another fight. Cheetor comes between them, telling them that the war is over, while [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] invites Jetstorm onto their side. It's not a suggestion that the two generals take kindly to, and another brief fight breaks out before Blackarachnia puts a stop to it. The two [[Vehicon general]]s leave.

[[Image:Fallout Optimus in Oracle.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Finally justification for a supreme-class Primal.]]
Hoping to consult the Oracle like Optimus once had, the Maximals make the trip underground to the Oracle's chamber. However, the foursome find Optimus Primal inside the Oracle. Communicating with them via the supercomputer, he asks that the Maximals forgive his zealotry and near-genocidal actions. Rattrap protests, as "there is nothing to forgive". Back in the void, Optimus sees the collective [[spark]]s of Cybertron past, present, and future, inviting him into the Transformer afterlife: the Matrix. As he floats, Optimus has an epiphany: the Oracle never intended to have organic life ''replace'' Cybertron's technology, but to create a [[technorganic]] balance of organic and machine, just as the Oracle did when it [[reformatted]] the Maximals. Optimus happily acknowledges that he is ready to join the Matrix... but not today.

[[Image:Fallout Maximals orchid.jpg|right|thumb|200px|"It looks like the cameraman needs a hug."]]
Optimus Primal steps out into real-space again, and the Oracle tells him that it has taught him everything, and that he must make his own way in his mission. A new orchard of technorganic plants grows around them as Optimus explains their new quest to the Maximals.

The Maximals head above ground, hoping to find and liberate Megatron's stockpile of [[spark]]s... only to find themselves face-to-giant-face with [[Grand Mal|an enormous vessel bearing the likeness of Megatron]]!
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (1)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (2)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (5)
*[[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] (6)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (7)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (8)

|h2=[[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s
|c2=
*[[Tank Drone]]s (3)
*[[Aero Drone]]s (4)
*[[Motorcycle Drone]]s (10)
*[[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] (11)
*[[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]] (12)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (13)

|c4=
*[[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]] (9)

}}
==Quotes==
"My spark has rejoined the Matrix. I paid the price for my misguided deeds, but it is not too late for you. Embrace the true nature of your spark."
:—'''Rhinox''' dispenses advice.

"If I had to guess, I'd say we won't be getting any holiday cards from him for a while."
:—'''Rattrap''''s own special way of saying "He's dead, Jim."

"Ah, y'know, this place just ain't gonna be the same without Megatron's toys to play with. Wha?"<br />
"Be careful what you wish for, cheddar-breath!"
:—'''Rattrap''' and '''Jetstorm'''

"Why is she so hung up on getting her old boyfriend's spark outta that guy?"<br />
"Eh, you're young. You'll learn."
:—'''Nightscream''' and '''Rattrap'''

"Forget it, spider-lady! I just lost my boss, everything is falling apart. I'm not losing my only friend as well!"<br />
"We're friends?"<br />
"Why not?"
:—'''Thrust''' and '''Jetstorm''', you can feel the bromance between the two

'''Optimus:''' "All I ask is you forgive me my transgressions so I can move on from this plane."<br />
'''Rattrap:''' "There's... nothing to forgive, Optimus."<br />
'''Nightscream:''' "You gave me a family when I lost everyone."<br />
'''Blackarachnia:''' "You lead us to victory at the cost of your own life."<br />
'''Cheetor:''' "I can forgive you for your mistakes, but not for giving up. Without your leadership, we'd have all gone offline when we first hit this planet. Without your guidance, we'd would've never mastered transforming in these technorganic bodies. And without your vision, Cybertron will never truly be restored."
:—The Maximals try to convince Optimus to return from the Matrix.

"But the Matrix never intended for the organic to replace the technological. It didn't want us to fight a war, but to create a balance. the technorganic balance between the machine and the organic. Yes, I am ready to join the Matrix, but not today."
:—'''Optimus''' realises he does actually have something to live for.

"Congratulations, Optimus Primal. You have passed your greatest test by asserting your own free will, the very thing that makes you more than a mere machine. Clearly there is nothing left to teach you. The time has come for you to seize your own destiny."
:—The '''Oracle''' gives Optimus a passing grade.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical errors===
* Optimus's dead body is... strange-looking. Presumably, it's supposed to look as if his body has crumbled to ash, but the model quality means that it looks like it's been cartoonishly flattened.
* During the skirmish between the Generals and the Maximals, Rattrap laughs nervously without moving his face.

===Continuity errors===
* The recap at the start of this episode concludes with Optimus Primal's hand disintegrating and him insisting that "if this is the will of the Matrix, then so be it". However, the [[cliffhanger]] simply ended with Optimus Primal looking on as his hand disintegrated.
* Just as in "[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse|Apocalypse]]", Optimus claims that the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] on [[Earth]] were the Matrix's way of obtaining organic material. Since it was Megatron who decided to go there, then either Optimus is reading too much into it or the Matrix has been giving Megatron some nudges...

===Continuity notes===
* When Optimus redirects the dueling energies into the Oracle, you can briefly see Nightscream's old hiding place. The fruit tree has apparently regrown.
* As the four surviving Maximals climb down to the Oracle, the sequence is deliberately set up to evoke their original trip to the Oracle, as seen in "[[The Reformatting]]".
* Similarly, Optimus's re-emergence from the Oracle is framed to resemble his original emergence from the Matrix in the same episode, complete with a disbelieving "Big Bot?" from Cheetor.
* Among Optimus's visions are the heads of the Maximals, who cycle through all of their previous bodies that appeared in ''Beast Wars''. Nightscream also briefly flashes into his brown, pre-technorganic beast mode.
* Optimus experiences a vision of a flower during his trip, the same kind that appeared in "The Reformatting".
* There's a lot of blink-and-you'll miss it foreshadowing in Optimus Primal's vision! As he returns to Megatron's chamber, he experiences visions of [[Noble (BM)|characters]] [[Botanica (BM)|who]] [[Obsidian (BM)|will]] [[Strika (BM)|appear]] in season two.
* There are a lot of clips from previous episodes interspersed throughout the episode. As the Maximals recount how Optimus has helped them over the course of the [[Spark War]], there are clips from "The Reformatting", "[[Forbidden Fruit]]", and "[[The Weak Component]]" Later, as Optimus remembers the Beast Wars, his memories are represented by clips from the ''Beast Wars'' episodes "[[Aftermath]]", "[[Cutting Edge]]", "[[Feral Scream Part 1]]", "[[Feral Scream Part 2]]", and "[[Nemesis Part 2|''Nemesis'' Part 2]]".

===Transformers references===

===Real-world references===
* Jetstorm mentions that they just got rid of the "old boss" and aren't keen on working for "the new boss", riffing on lyrics from [[w:The Who|The Who]]'s "[[w:Won't Get Fooled Again|Won't Get Fooled Again]]".

===Trivia===
*Season 2 sees the Maximals drop the "I am transformed" mantra that usually accompanied their transformations.
*Rhinox must remain in the Matrix forever. [[Homecoming (Universe)|Until he doesn't]]. Except [[Singularity Ablyss|when he gets killed even deader]]. (Multiple canons are fun, kids!) Either way, in-show, this is the last appearance of Rhinox/Tankor.
*Amusingly, Blackarachnia tells Jetstorm right in his face, "You don't want to be Silverbolt again? Fine. I won't force you." [[In Darkest Knight|Oh, really?]]

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Retombées'''" ("Fallout")

:*''Title:'' "'''La Chute'''" (Canada, "The Fall")

'''German'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Off-Line'''"
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 15]], [[2000]]

'''Japanese
:*''Title:'' "'''Shōri no Daishō'''" (勝利の代償, "The Cost of Victory")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 19]], [[2004]]

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Lluvia Radiactiva'''" ("Radioactive Fallout")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Returns'' — Volume 4 ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Geneon Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Beast Machines: Transformers'' — The Complete Series ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2014 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — The Complete Series ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Season Two: Volume One ([[Sony]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Complete Season Two (Sony)<br>
[[Image:Flag of France.png|20px|France]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Intégrale Saison 2 (Sony) — French audio only.

[[Category:Beast Machines episodes]]

The Key

2016-06-01T03:41:33Z

John3637881: /* Continuity notes */

{{disambig3|Key}}
{{episode
|series=BMtoon
|ep=11
|image=Key titlescreen.jpg
|caption=We thank thee o'Lord, for this fanwank we are about to receive...
|title="The Key"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=December 4, 1999
|written by=[[Marv Wolfman]]
|directed by=[[Sean Osborne]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''Tankor discovers an ancient weapon within the Oracle: the Key to Vector Sigma!'''

==Synopsis==
[[Image:DroneVectorSigma.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!]]

[[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]] has returned to the chamber of the [[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]], this time with the [[Diagnostic Drone]] in tow. He disables a holographic inferno, revealing "the Oracle". Tankor waxes expository on the ancient [[Autobot]] [[datatrax]] that tell of the spheroid computer, [[Vector Sigma]], which he believes to be one and the same as the Oracle. More vital to Tankor's ambitions, however, is the legendary [[Key to Vector Sigma]], said to hold the power to "turn organics into [[technomatter]]".

Proving his tank body to be surprisingly spry, Tankor leaps into the air to enter the Oracle—only to be summarily and violently rejected as lacking a "receptive [[spark]]". Still determined, Tankor gambles that where he failed, an entirely spark-less drone will succeed—and wins. The drone emerges safely from "beyond comprehension", bearing codes that materialize to form the Key to Vector Sigma. Tankor begins plotting a field test of its powers.

Deep underground in the fossil cave, [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]]'s attempt at communing with the extinct is interrupted by the siren call of hard labor: drilling for [[water]]. [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] butt heads over the relative futility of well-digging versus a direct assault on an apparently complacent [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]]. Optimus proves to be justified, as the drill successfully penetrates an underground reservoir, not of water, but a mysterious [[organic goo|green goo]] that begins flooding the nascent orchard. The freshly planted seeds sprout instantly into full-grown plants—Optimus reflects on the Oracle's prophecy that the planet's [[organic core]] would revive organic life on Cybertron. However, the arrival of an aggressive Tankor swiftly overshadows this newfound source of hope.

[[Image:Nightscream technomattered.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"Help me! I'm being redecoed!"]]
Tankor disillusions Optimus Primal regarding the mythical nature of the Key with a demonstration: the conversion of the entire orchard into cold blue technomatter. A second shot from the Key aimed for an unflinching Optimus strikes a heroically suicidal Nightscream instead, reverting him to [[beast mode]]. Nightscream shivers in pain as his [[technorganic]] body evidently fights the conversion process—which appears to be contagious. Gloating himself into a frenzy, Tankor prepares to fire a third shot from the Key, only to grow increasingly distressed as he instead overloads and collapses. A posse of [[Tank Drone]]s led by the Diagnostic Drone barge into the cave to drag Tankor's body away to safety.

Nightscream's demeanor grows increasingly erratic, forcing [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] to confine him to a web cocoon, which itself becomes technomatter on contact. Noticing one of the plants has turned green again, Blackarachnia drops him into the pool of organic goo, which eases his pain, but proves too small in volume to be more than a temporary treatment for the disease. For a cure, they will require much, much more.

Optimus Primal orders [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] to track Tankor remotely, but Cheetor countermands that with a demand to repair the drill to excavate more goo. Both orders prove fruitless as both Tankor's energy signature and his spark are unreachable, and the drill is beyond repair. Cheetor suggests usurping one of Megatron's own [[Vehicon Mole]]s to drill to the organic core.

Megatron queries the Diagnostic Drone on the events surrounding Tankor's untimely demise, and the drone begins analyzing the fallen general's head...

Optimus, Cheetor, and Rattrap track a Mole on the surface to its home warehouse, only to run afoul of a fleet of [[Motorcycle Drone]]s which they dispatch with some strategic application of Running Away. Megatron observes all this from his headquarters, and shows off the upgraded buildings of [[Cybertropolis]], now fully mobile, airborne, and firmly under Megatron's personal control.

Escaping the narrowing alleyways between skyscrapers, Optimus leaps through and shatters one of Megatron's massive display screens to land inside the Moles' warehouse; the others follow suit. Once again Rattrap finds himself in the middle of one of Cheetor and Optimus Primal's arguments-by-proxy: Cheetor advocates taking control of a single Mole for escape, and Optimus wants control of the entire flight-capable warehouse.

Back in the fossil cave, Blackarachnia offers a thermos of goo to an increasingly mentally unstable Nightscream, who flies into a rage and attacks her. Her attempts to capture him and evade his touch both fail, and she finds herself infected by technomatter.

[[Image:Megatron with building.jpg|left|200px|thumb|The Megatron-in-the-Moon dislikes flying skyscrapers.]]
The Drones' warehouse has lifted off the ground, and falling support beams strike Cheetor unconscious. While Optimus protects him from drones' artillery, Rattrap interfaces with an actively resisting Mole. Megatron begins tilting the warehouse on its side, letting Maximals, drones, and all fall hundreds of feet out of the sky. Rattrap's appropriated drone somehow provides ample protection from the sudden stop as they hit the ground, and begins drilling.

The two surviving [[Vehicon general]]s offer to pursue the enemy underground, but Megatron already has an agent with the Maximals in its sights.

The three find Blackarachnia and Nightscream missing, but their plans to search for them are interrupted by the Mole opening fire. Nightscream takes this opportune moment to sweep into the cave, Blackarachnia riding him, both cackling insanely. Optimus bulldozes over Cheetor's knee-jerk objection and assaults the Mole while Rattrap finds himself cornered by the infected Blackarachnia. Cheetor is likewise trapped by a falling fossil as Nightscream menaces him, when an eruption of organic goo floods the orchard once again and showers all the Maximals, curing the technomatter affliction.

[[Image:Optimus organic goop.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Escape from Monkey Island!]]
Optimus emerges from the green geyser only to be, once again, the verbal target of a passive-aggressive Cheetor. Rattrap, however, is fed up with being used like a ball in a game of ping-pong, and Cheetor finally spells out what's been on his mind. He demands respect, particularly after [[Revelations Part II: Descent|filling the team's leadership role]] during [[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse|Optimus Primal's absence]] communing with the Oracle. Optimus points out that a team can't have two leaders, and Cheetor huffily concedes. Blackarachnia forebodes that the conflict is far from over, and "Some problems aren't that simple."

A sextet of Tank Drones bear the lifeless chassis of Tankor to an unknown destination under the guidance of the Diagnostic Drone, who summarily dismisses them. The drone addresses someone approaching just off-screen... the true Tankor, online and well. His plan has apparently worked perfectly, both sides of the conflict now convinced of his destruction. Tankor grasps his fallen double's appendage, causing its illusory shell to flicker, revealing the green wireframes beneath. He saws through the arm and the whole body reverts to a green outline, vanishing completely when he removes the Key from the hologram's grip.

Tankor contemplates the power now firmly in his servos, and revels in holding sole possession of "the key to a new Cybertron..."

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] (4)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (5)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (6)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (7)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (8)

|h2=[[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s
|c2=
*[[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]]/[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (1)
*[[Diagnostic Drone]] (2)
*[[Tank Drone]]s (9)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (10)
*[[Vehicon Mole]]s (11)
*[[Motorcycle Drone]]s (12)
*[[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] (13)
*[[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]] (14)

|c4=
*[[Oracle (BM)|Oracle]] (3)

}}
==Quotes==
"Pity, it appears we're in need of a receptive spark."<br />
"Or perhaps one who has no spark at all!"<br />
"I see where this is going."
:—'''Diagnostic Drone''' is tossed into Vector Sigma by '''Tankor'''.

"Paydirt! We struck, uh, goop?"
:—'''Rattrap'''

"The Key to Vector Sigma is mine! I now have the power to transform organics into metallic perfection! Shall I begin with you, [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|old friend]]?"
:—'''Tankor'''

"Enough! I am transformed!"<br />
"You are a fool, Optimus Primal! You, the Maximals and even Megatron himself are destined to failure. All organics will fall before me!"
:—'''Optimus Primal''' and '''Tankor'''

"Nice mole! Uncle Rattrap just wants to interface!"
:—'''Rattrap''' makes another disturbing choice of words.

"Cheer up, magnificence! We'll track down the livestock in no time."
:—'''Jetstorm''' shows Thrust he's not afraid to suck up.

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
* At multiple points during the episode, Tankor's model is missing the lights that are usually attached to his head in robot mode. You can even see this error in the preview picture on this page. Oddly enough, this error persists for quite a few episodes, particularly when Tankor is seen underground with the [[Diagnostic Drone]]. That said, the lights do reappear in random shots, only to vanish again.
* When Tankor approaches the Oracle, the lighting effect on the floor between his feet is glitching out.
* After Optimus walks over to Rattrap, the panels on his forearm guard clip through each other.
* When "Tankor" is overloading, Rattrap's right shoulder is really distorted.
* As he struggles, Nightscream's wings keep clipping through other parts of his body.
* When the infected Nightscream lets go of the infected Blackarachnia, he simply clips through her.

===Continuity notes===
* Rhinox/Tankor mockingly calls Optimus "old friend". In ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'', Optimus good-naturedly called Rhinox "old friend".

===Continuity errors===
* The Oracle's security system is a bit lax for an ancient supercomputer - it can apparently detect [[spark]]s and repel invaders accordingly, but its vaunted security system is completely bypassed by a small, sparkless [[drone]].

===Transformers references===
* The Oracle is revealed to be a shell program surrounding the original [[Vector Sigma]] supercomputer, a "character" that made several appearances in the original Generation 1 cartoon.
* Naturally, this means that the titular "key" is none other than...
* The [[Key to Vector Sigma]], which was an important plot device during the Generation 1 cartoon, appearing in [[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1|two]] [[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2|episodes]] of the same name. Its properties aren't quite the same as they were in the original cartoon, however. <ref> In the original [[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2|Generation 1 series]] the key's organic-to-technologic properties were described as being a "radically different effect" when the key was used on Earth. However, ''Beast Machines'' treats this property as normal behavior for the key, even on Cybertron. </ref>

===Real-world references===
*The way that the Mole Drone hanger spins as it falls is an homage to ''[[wikipedia:The Wizard of Oz (1939 film)|The Wizard of Oz]]'', when Dorothy's house is spinning in the tornado.

===Trivia===
* The decoy body that Tankor uses to fake his death is later revealed to be a [[holomatter|hologram]], which disappears when Tankor retrieves the key. Oddly enough, the decoy's shoulder cannon seems solid enough to be cut through by Tankor's saw, and also solid enough to physically ''hold'' the key. It's not clear why Tankor used a hologram instead of one of his nearly-identical tank drones. (In real-world terms, it was probably to make it clear to the viewer that the decoy wasn't real.)

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Guerre Techno-Organique, Partie I'''" ("Techno-Organic War, Part I")

:*''Title:'' "'''La Clé'''" (Canada, "The Key")

'''German'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Der Schlüssel'''" ("The Key")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 12]], [[2000]]

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Tetsu no Seijaku'''" (鉄の静寂, "The Silence of Iron")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 11]], [[2004]]

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Guerra Tecno-Orgánica, Parte Uno: La Llave'''" ("Techno-Organic War, Part One: The Key")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[Image:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Returns'' — Volume 3 ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Geneon Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Beast Machines: Transformers'' — The Complete Series ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2014 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — The Complete Series ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Season One: Volume Two ([[Sony]])<br>
[[Image:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Season One: Volume Two — Revelations (Sony)<br>
[[Image:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Complete Season One (Sony)<br>
[[Image:Flag of France.png|20px|France]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Intégrale Saison 1 (Sony) — French audio only.

==Footnotes==
<references />

{{DEFAULTSORT:Key}}
[[Category:Beast Machines episodes]]

In Darkest Knight

2016-05-30T17:00:36Z

John3637881: /* Trivia */ Not entirely true. Sunlight is seen in Nightscream's flashback in "Forbidden Fruit," and the sun is rising at the end of "The Weak Component."

{{episode
|series=BMtoon
|ep=17
|image=Silverboltbm.jpg
|caption=I'm [[Batman]].
|title="In Darkest Knight"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[March 1]], 2000
|written by=[[Steven Melching]]
|directed by=[[George Samilski]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''Blackarachnia is finally able to revive Silverbolt, but he doesn't seem too happy about it.'''

==Synopsis==
As the [[Grand Mal|big floating head]], [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]]'s newest body, drifts overhead, [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] searches through a derelict region of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] for his former friend, the organic [[Noble (BM)|Savage/Noble]]. However, his search is cut short by [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] and [[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]].

[[File:DarkestKnight Rattrap's invention.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1|"Behold my new invention: ''a LIGHT!''"]]
Back at the Maximal base, [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] talks to [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] about his newest invention, combining a [[spark extractor]] with a [[DNA scanner]]. This process, he hopes, could someday be used to restore any of the captured sparks they recover into Transformer bodies. [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] and [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] arrive, wondering what's happened to Nightscream. Nobody has seen him for a while, so the team head aboveground to find out where he's gone. However, Blackarachnia has a lingering fascination with Rattrap's new device.

The Maximals find Nightscream surrounded by a pack of [[Motorcycle Drone|cycle drones]] and other [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s. A fight to rescue their young member begins. Cheetor uses his blades to glide through the air, fighting the [[Aero Drone]]s all the while. Rattrap outraces several more cycle drones. Cooking up her own plot, Blackarachnia places Rattrap's device on Jetstorm, hoping to free his spark and reformat him.

Megatron, in his gigantic head, uses his gravity beams to capture Optimus and Cheetor, ending the conflict quickly. Nightscream is left behind, at the mercy of Thrust. Luckily, he is protected by Savage/Noble, who uses both of his tails to damage Thrust. Rattrap sees the strange dragon haul Nightscream's unconscious body away and, suspecting Savage intends to consume the younger Maximal, follows.

[[File:DarkestKnight Silverbolt reflection.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.1|"Kermit, I would like to have a word about injecting some culture into this show."]]
Blackarachnia leads Jetstorm deeper underground. The jet crashes through one of her webs and into a pool of [[organic goo|organic fluid]]. With the general restrained, the DNA scanner Blackarachnia placed onto him activates and begins to detect local fossils. The scanner passes by several other bones before locking onto a suitable candidate: a skeleton of a prehistoric, condor-like creature. After a painful metamorphosis, the Vehicon once known as Jetstorm is destroyed, and the [[Maximal]] [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] is reborn. He becomes aware of himself and is surprised by his new, [[technorganic]] form. Shocked, disgruntled, and angry, he flies out of the cave in which he was brought back, leaving a confused Blackarachnia behind.

Confronting the renegade Maximal atop a skyscraper, Blackarachnia discovers a change in her lover. Instead of the corny, phrase-spouting 'bot of prehistoric Earth, this new, angry Silverbolt loathes himself. Blackarachnia tries to remind the Maximal of the heroic personality he used to be, but Silverbolt (who is no longer silver) no longer has any connection to those ideals that once defined him. He comes along with Blackarachnia on a trip to rescue Optimus Primal and Cheetor not out of concern for his Maximal pals, but only as a way to confront his former master, Megatron.

Nightscream awakens in an abandoned warehouse, now serving as Savage/Noble's "den". The creature, in his "Noble" form, provides a metallic apple for Nightscream to feed on. Noble has lost his former mental skills, but still seems to like Nightscream and remember him. Rattrap tries to rescue Nightscream quietly but catches Noble's attention. Confused, Noble shifts into his Savage form, causing Nightscream and Rattrap to cheese it.

[[File:DarkestKnight Optimus Cheetor interrogation.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1|"I'm a pepper! Don't you want to be a pepper, too?"]]
Inside of the Grand Mal, Cheetor and Optimus are interrogated for information on the Oracle and how Megatron can use it to manipulate the Sparks he holds captive. Blackarachnia and Silverbolt arrive in the same chamber, where Megatron manifests an image of himself, a hologram of the Grand Mal made out of floating masses of data. He explains why he selected Silverbolt's spark to be made into a new general: He believed Silverbolt's sense of honor would let him stay true to Megatron's Vehicon ideology. Blackarachnia argues, hoping Silverbolt understands that friendship and love are more important.

Silverbolt rejects Megatron's dogma and transforms into his new [[robot mode]]. His throwing blades heavily damage Megatron's insides. Freed, Primal orders a retreat, but Silverbolt feels it would be better to [[Furmanism|fight and die]]. Blackarachnia uses one of her abilities to stun him so she can drag him out.

[[File:Blackarachniasilverboltdarkestknight.jpg|right|upright=1.67|thumb|A sunset on Cybertron? Crazy!]]
Rattrap and Nightscream are still running from Savage when they find Thrust and his drones standing in their way. The Maximals let Savage take care of the drones, while Silverbolt tosses away Thrust into the water. Primal welcomes Silverbolt back into the Maximals, but the bird just leaves the Maximals, not yet ready to be part of the team. Nightscream argues that Savage/Noble still has the qualities of a good guy inside of him, and Primal decides that the best thing to do is to wait.

That morning, sitting on a skyscraper, Blackarachnia and Silverbolt have another discussion, in which he reveals how he enjoyed being a Vehicon, without having to follow his code of honor. Despite this, Blackarachnia is still ready to reach out to him, and together they return to the Maximals.
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] (2)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (5)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (6)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (7)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (8)
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] (11)

|h2=[[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]]s
|c2=
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (1)
*[[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]] (3)
*[[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] (4)
*[[Motorcycle Drone]]s (9)
*[[Aero Drone]] (10)

|c4=
*[[Noble (BM)|Noble]] (11)

}}

==Quotes==
"Nothing noble about us!"<br />
"But savage? We can do that!"
:—'''Thrust''' and '''Jetstorm'''

"You broke 'em, you bought 'em, kittycat!"
:—'''Jetstorm'''

"What do you want from us?"<br />
"Oh, nothing much. Just every bit of data on the Oracle to better understand how I can fully exploit the precious sparks in my possession. I anticipate that extracting this information will be slow, painful, and, regrettably...fatal."
:—'''Optimus Primal''' and '''Megatron'''

"How can you stand the sight of me? Look at what I've become!"
:–'''Silverbolt''' doesn't like his new design any more than the rest of us.

"You helped me find the light once."<br />
"I was a fool back then. I ''believed'' in things."
:—'''Blackarachnia''' and '''Silverbolt'''

"Don't listen to him, Silverbolt! He turned you into a monster!"<br />
"I gave you strength. I gave you power."<br />
"We gave you friendship! I gave you my heart."<br />
"I gave you purpose. I gave you ''life!''"<br />
"''You... gave... me... '''NOTHING!!!'''''"
:-'''Blackarachnia''' and '''Megatron''' play Loyalty-tug-of-war with '''Silverbolt'''.

"Nobody's judging you. You were under Megatron's control. Join us, and you can avenge yourself."<br />
"You still don't get it, do you? I don't hate Megatron for what he made me do. He freed me from my code of honor, and I revelled in it. Don't you see? I… enjoyed it. I don't know what I am anymore."<br />
"You are what you've always been – honest, pure, virtuous to a fault."<br />
[''Blackarachnia takes Silverbolt's hand'']<br />
"You're taking a huge risk."<br />
"Considering how well I know the goodness in your heart, it really isn't a risk at all."
:—'''Blackarachnia''' and '''Silverbolt'''

==Notes==
===Animation or technical errors===

===Continuity errors===
* How do the Maximals know that Noble survived at all?
* Similarly, how do the Maximals know where to find Nightscream after he goes missing?
* When Blackarachnia previously freed Silverbolt from his Jetstorm persona back in "[[The Catalyst]]", he seemed to immediately return to his original chivalrous goofball personality, with no psychological side effects.
* It's not clear how Noble, a purely organic creature, has been managing to survive on Cybertron. The "fruits" that he gives Nightscream appear to be completely technological in origin... and raise questions about where these things are even coming from.
* Seeing as how Silverbolt looks virtually ''nothing'' like his previous form, it seems somewhat odd that [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] would instantly recognise him without being introduced.
* Remember how, in "[[Revelations Part III: Apocalypse]]", Optimus said that changing Rhinox against his will is no better than Megatron? Or, in "[[Crossing the Rubicon]]", when he said much the same thing about Blackarachnia herself? Well, either Blackarachnia [[Fallout (episode)|''doesn't'' remember]] or it's okay when Jetstorm/Silverbolt has a [[To sell toys|new toy]] out. Then again, it's not unlike Blackarachnia to ignore directions and strike out on her own.
* Previously, it was a major plot point to maintain [[robot mode]]. Now Nightscream is able to maintain robot form while unconscious. Good focus, kid.
* Silverbolt is able to transform without any practice. This is not the [[Nightscream (BM)|first]] time, nor will it be the [[Botanica (BM)|last]].

===Continuity notes===
* [[DNA scanner]]s were a major component of ''Beast Wars'', incorporated into [[stasis pod]]s. Nightscream noted in "[[Survivor]]" that all DNA scanners have since been directly integrated into Cybertronians.
* One of the fossils in the cavern belongs to the same prehistoric bat species that Nightscream scanned.
* Silverbolt had previously shown a non-chivalrous, dark side to him from time to time: most notably in "[[Crossing the Rubicon]]" where he intends to murder [[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]].
* Blackarachnia refers to how Silverbolt helped her "find the light", referring to her defection to the Maximals in ''Beast Wars''.
* Gadgets and powers:
** In his new body, Megatron can grab people off the ground and drag them up into the Grand Mal, UFO-abduction style.
** Rattrap has telescopic vision, thanks to his face-mask.
** Cheetor later uses his swords as a parachute.

===Transformers references===

===Real-world references===
* The episode's title, of course, is a reference to "The Dark Knight", a nickname for [[w:Batman|Batman]]. Writer [[Steven Melching]] based Silverbolt's drastic personality change on the Caped Crusader himself: comparing Silverbolt's ''Beast Wars'' incarnation to the silly, campy [[w:Adam West|Adam West]] version of the character, while the grim, vengeance-driven reincarnation we see here was inspired by the darker takes on the character.

===Trivia===
* While it's not explicitly saying so, this episode does give a reason for how ''Waspinator'' of all people could influence his Vehicon self to help Blackarachnia but her true love couldn't: it wasn't that he couldn't, he just didn't want to ''stop'' being a villain.
* Vehicons are a cowardly and superstitious lot.

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Une Sombre Nuit'''" ("A Dark Night")

:*''Title:'' "'''Sombre Chevalier'''" (Canada, "Dark Knight")

'''German'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Silver Bolt'''"
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 18]], [[2000]]

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Yajū no Ongaeshi'''" (野獣の恩返し, "The Beast's Gratitude")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[January 1]], [[2005]]

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''O Cavaleiro das Trevas'''" ("The Dark Knight")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''El Caballero en la Oscuridad'''" ("The Knight in the Dark")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2005 — ''Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Returns'' — Volume 5 ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Geneon Entertainment]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2006 — ''Beast Machines: Transformers'' — The Complete Series ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2014 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — The Complete Series ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Season Two: Volume One ([[Sony]])<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Complete Season Two (Sony)<br>
[[File:Flag of France.png|20px|France]] 2009 — ''Transformers: Beast Machines'' — Intégrale Saison 2 (Sony) — French audio only.

[[Category:Beast Machines episodes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-05-25T03:40:41Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, Template:Notecmn could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: Template:TransformersComicMagazin and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)
===Collapsable continuity notes?===
I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

Speaking of notes and templates, can we also scrub the IDW notes that say ''"[[Revelation (IDW)|Revelation]] was shorter than it should've been because [[Simon Furman]] was fired."'' and the Dreamwave notes that say ''"Because Dreamwave collapsed, plot threads were left dangling."''...unless those notes are ''specifically'' contributing something to the character's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:53, 15 January 2016 (EST)
:I'd say yes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:16, 15 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Another proposal after I had a thought just now: [[:File:H3 dashed overlines.jpg|dashed overlines]]. The difference should be enough to differentiate from the underlines on h2s, and they nicely group together related stuff. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:46, 26 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Alternate names==
When we mention a character's alternate names (i.e, on X's page, we note that "he is sometimes known as '''Y'''), there seems to be a bit of confusion as to exactly ''where'' we do it. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Grapple_(G1)&oldid=1043677 Some pages]<ref>(EDIT: Grapple's alternate name has been moved to the bio, so the link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref> place such information near the top in the continuity note, whereas [[Octane|others]] put it at the end of the opening paragraph. Is there a policy on this? I don't particularly care one way or the other, I'd just like to see them made consistent. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:08, 17 January 2016 (EST)
:I prefer them to be in the top rather than in the bio.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:54, 17 January 2016 (EST)
::The continuity notes are cluttered enough already. Put them at the end of the bio. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::: I think, barring the unusual case of an obscure alternate name that is seldom used, the end of the continuity note is the ideal place. But I'm not sure consistency is absolutely necessary, as long as the information is conveyed in an appropriate way.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I concur with Saix. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I prefer the end of the intro over the continuity note. It leaves more room for multiple names (in case a character has 2 or more alternate names) and also makes room for context (like, when and where and why is the character sometimes called by that other name). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:54, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::I prefer the end of the intro as well. Take a look at [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod&oldid=1046644 Hot Rod]. <ref>(EDIT: as of 18:11, 20 January 2016 (EST), they've been moved into the bio. The link goes to an older revision for clarity.)</ref>He has all his names in the continuity note, and it's a mess. If we're going to pick just one way to do it (and I think we should), it should be at the end of the intro. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:45, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::You've convinced me that the intro is a smarter spot. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 20 January 2016 (EST)
How about [[Vector Prime]]'s alternate names? He's never made a solid appearance using any of them, so should they be in both the intro and in the AVP story section? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:23, 21 January 2016 (EST)
: That feels like a great place to make an exception and only list them in the fiction section or the notes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:44, 21 January 2016 (EST)
{{reflist}}

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Convoy is also called Miscellaneous Magnus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names_links|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:25, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== Parodies ==

I think we should have one page that lists notable parodies and stuff. Just to get them out of the way. [[User:HarbringerOfDoom|HarbringerOfDoom]] ([[User talk:HarbringerOfDoom|talk]]) 08:29, 20 January 2016 (EST)

:They're already out of the way, by virtue of being not on this wiki. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::I noticed recently that the other place has started listing stuff like characters' appearances on ''Family Guy'' and ''Robot Chicken'' in their main profiles, which gives us even more reason not to. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::I can see the appeal, but I suspect it would quickly get out of hand. Transformers gets referenced in a lot of pop culture. Every show, movie, and Web comic is somebody's favorite, so I suspect any such page would quickly become an unbearably long and tedious list. So what would that leave us with? A page saying Transformers often shows up in pop culture? I'm not sure there's any value to that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:13, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:You guys have got to just be doing this on purpose now. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (EST)
::::I will get myself banned before I will allow this wiki to cover Family Guy and Robot Chicken. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:23, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''''NO.''''' Like, a thousand times no. I believe similar discussions have been had in the past, and the answer was a resounding no. (I can't find that particular discussion at the moment; I'll post it here if I find it.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)
::::::We have episodes of cartoons and issues of comics that are stubs and primary character articles that need to have their fiction sections filled out, but ok, yeah. Let's start pedantically listing every time ''Family Guy'' has referenced Transformers. That should be a priority. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 13:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
:''<nowiki>**Condescending Wonka image**</nowiki>'' --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:00, 20 January 2016 (EST)
The only page that would make sense (to me) while keeping in line with the spirit for this wiki is a simple list of times that official product was used in movies and television.
*This toy was in such and such movie in year 19XX.
*Transformers episode so'n'so was seen the background of movie in year 200X.
*A number of toys were shown featured in McTV show in episode whatzitz.
References are out. Parodies are out, and it's only a single page as to not clutter up the rest (similar to what we do with unofficial Transformers guides.) --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] ([[User talk:Bluestreak7|talk]]) 02:36, 22 February 2016 (EST)
:I really don't see any potential benefit to that. Are we going to make a page full of stuff like "Some G1 toys showed up in ''Flight of the Navigator''" and stuff like that? Why? It's pointless, and it would just open the floodgates for more of the same pointless crap, not to mention how bloated and useless it would be. Before long, people will use that page as an argument for including bullshit from Family Guy and the Chevy commercial with the car that turns into a robot and god knows what else. Information about references to ''Transformers'' in other media is something for Wikipedia to cover. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:24, 22 February 2016 (EST)

== Question about GoBots....not the one you are thinking of ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Question_about_GoBots....not_the_one_you_are_thinking_of]]

== Is there a category for images from the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages? ==

Do we have a category for all the images posted on the ''Timelines'' Facebook pages like [[Ask Vector Prime]], [[Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]], etc? As I've been going through the [[Special:UncategorizedFiles|uncategorized images]], I've noticed that quite a few of them are from those Facebook pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:16, 8 February 2016 (EST)

== "Requested URL could not be retrieved" ==

I can't seem to find any kind of technical place to post this, so I'm just going to post it here in the hopes of getting some attention. For some reason, I've been locked out of the site; trying to access the website on either of my main computers results in a white page and an "ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved" message. I've tried clearing my cache, deleting cookies, all that stuff (I can still post on my phone). I suspect that it's some kind of internal server problem (I don't think I've done anything to break the wiki on my end), but I'm not sure? Any help would be appreciated. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:09, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:That might have been me being too zealous with the spam blocking. I'll send you an email shortly. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:36, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:: Thank you! I will see if it works. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:56, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::Did you get the email? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:14, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::: sorry for the late response, it got put into junk mail. Clicking the link just takes me to a blocked site. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:43, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::OK, I think you should now be unblocked. Give it another try! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:57, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::: It worked! Many thanks! [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:03, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::::::No problem - sorry about that! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:05, 29 February 2016 (EST)

== Facebook-exclusive characters ==
Given the copious quantity of characters debuted through the Tornado and TransTech Facebook pages who have no toys and have yet to appear in any other fiction, would it be appropriate to create a "Facebook-only characters" subcategory of "Fiction-only characters"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:59, 1 March 2016 (EST)
:Not a bad idea. I'd also be down for "Online-media exclusive characters" or something along those lines. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, that sounds worthwhile. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:19, 1 March 2016 (EST)

== Furthering the use of list articles ==

Looking at Chris McFeely's [[User:Chris_McFeely/Sandbox:ListofRenegades|sandbox]] for the GoBots list article, I think that maybe similar list articles would be a nice way to handle some of the minor Shattered Glass and Kre-O characters. Pages like [[Broadside (SG)]] are rather useless, and I think that consolidating such pages into a list article would lead to a better reader experience. (To save us from pointless page moves, I would suggest just turning the old pages into a redirect to the list article, keeping all the categories.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:38, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:No. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 19:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)
::Would you care to elaborate on that? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:20, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:::We only used a list for GoBots as a compromise for the endless debate. Applying that concept to inarguable Transformers characters is senseless and leads to more arguments over what counts for a list and what doesn't. You're just causing more inconsistency and headaches for no benefit. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (EST)
I still hate the list pages for Gobots, I don't want to have to spread it further. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (EST)

Lists are not ideal. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:26, 3 March 2016 (EST)
:Fair enough. It was just a thought -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 20:41, 3 March 2016 (EST)

== Sick Of Arguing About GoBots II ==

Discussion moved to [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/GoBots#Sick_Of_Arguing_About_GoBots_II]]

== RID Kre-O ==

Since we're unlikely to get any more Kre-O fiction, and all of the RID Kre-O articles are pretty sparse in content, maybe they should just be merged to the main RID character articles? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:27, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I'll be honest, I'm not averse to this at all. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:13, 8 March 2016 (EST)
::I guess nobody's really opposed to this or cares, so I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
After looking through the Kre-O pages... I feel like the comic-only cameos should all just be merged to whatever they're referencing. After merging all of the Iocus crap, it feels right to do the same to articles that are pretty much just "BWII Galvatron, but as a Kreon". They're very specific references removed from their context for really no good reason. Maybe not a popular suggestion, but throwing it out there. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:50, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::So long as it doesn't mess around with characters that freely switch between different incarnations of themselves, or are composite homages that can't be neatly classified. I can't think of any way those could be neatly merged into another page. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I'm mostly focusing on unique characters (Fractyl, Atari, Tarn, etc.) and not the big archetypes like Optimus or Bumblebee. Most characters with toys will be left alone. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:35, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:I'm extremely cool with this. Never been big fan of giving them individual articles in the first place. Like, honestly, in a more organized world where this stuff hadn't been created on an incremental basis, "Fornax" almost certainly wouldn't be a thing and it'd all be Iocus. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:48, 9 March 2016 (EST)
:Again, no real objection, if a tepid "sure". I mean, I'm not really convinced that Kreons based on existing characters who DO have toys but no fiction (like a hefty chunk of the "Class" sets) really need to be split out. A page from Kreon Topspin seems... overly redundant. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:29, 9 March 2016 (EST)
::Yeah, I'm looking around more and it seems like there's only a select few that couldn't be encompassed by their main versions. Most of the Class series is guilty of that, but there's also lots of Kreons based on one-shot characters ([[Wingspan Hawk]], [[Barrage (Kre-O)]]). We have a lot of pages that are just "this exists and is obviously this other thing" from both the toyline and the comic. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:39, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::You probably are doing this, but be sure to add the "Kreons" category and such when condensing. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:53, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:Ehhh... I disagree. I mean, the Kreon Class ones, sure, but I'm less certain on What about the likes of the [[Soundwave's Trap? Stop Operation Brainwash Humanity!|Soundwaves and Convoys]] and [[Enter the New Emperor of Destruction!? Stop Galvatron's Rampage!|Starscreams]]? I'd probably vote strong "yes" to merging the Class of 84/5 guys, weak "yes" to merging the fictionless Kreons (and maybe the non-Transformer comic cameos, I don't know), but a strong "no" to anyone who was actually in the comic. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::We do have a couple of examples where character pages have sections that cover more than one character already. The Masterforce transtectors and the BeCool cartoon come to mind. Does it really serve anything to give those tiny one-panel cameos in a referential comic their own pages? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:03, 10 March 2016 (EST)
:::As I've noted before, there comes a point where we're just being pointlessly pedantic, making people jump through hoops (and incrementally hitting our bandwidth limits) for... no actual ''benefit'' near as I can tell. Seriously. What's the benefit? What is the purpose? "Consistency"? Sorry, this franchise has grown and mutated too big for us to try and cram everything into no-exceptions rules. We HAVE to be flexible and make exceptions in some places, and when it comes to overly-redundant pages, that's where I'm more than willing to make exceptions.
:::I'm down with low-content one-pages for one-panel ''unique'' characters to be certain, like the Hideous Brain Guy, but for Basically The Well-Known G1 Character But In Brick Form? ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhn. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:45, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Should we merge <nowiki>[[Soundblaster (Kre-O)]] into [[Soundblaster (G1)]]?</nowiki> Their colors aren't exactly the same, but they're both black repaint clones of the main Soundwave. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:02, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
:Sure, whatever. If another independent G1 Soundblaster pops up, that's probably where they're going anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:54, 14 March 2016 (EDT)
So what are we doing about ''Kre-O'' toys who unambiguously represent a single established character? Back on March 25, Sipher undid the merger of ''Kre-O'' [[Ravage (Kre-O)|Ravage]], but on May 5, Chris merged ''Kre-O'' Megaplex. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 13:25, 15 May 2016 (EDT)

== Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures ==

(Slight re-editing of something I posted on the Allspark) I think we may need to put something in [[Template:Welcome|the welcome template]] and/or on [[Main Page/editing-tips|Main Page/editing-tips]] about how new users are unable to create pages because of all the spam stuff; it seems to be [[User talk:Foffy the Sheep#Extreme Editing Difficulties|confusing some people]]. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:45, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
:I've just reduced the timeout for creating new pages down to 6 hours, which should still slow down the spammers but not be quite as much of a burden on legit new users. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:50, 13 March 2016 (EDT)
Is any active admin still getting emails sent to the webmaster mailbox? I ask because I'm getting a ton of them: Looks like new IP/User Agent blocks, and I haven't touched this setup since... 2014? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 23:12, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

We now have a new captcha based on the [[Transformers Name Generator]], which should hopefully be harder for the spammers to crack. Also my apologies to the non-spammers caught up in the blocking - all of the user agent blocks have been rolled back by now, so hopefully no one should be blocked from viewing the site. (Also as per McFly above, I've redirected the webmaster email address to me) --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:18, 25 March 2016 (EDT)
:I hope the new signup test is not too difficult - I notice we haven't had any new signups since implementing it. I changed the notice to be clearer and provided an example. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:30, 27 March 2016 (EDT)

== Memobots and Deskcepticons ==

For those not in the know, the Hasbro Facebook page posted a bunch of new "characters" for April Fools, The Memobots and the Deskcepticons. While awesome, there's very little material for each "character" to have its own page. (All there is are photoshopped pictures of office supplies, some tech-spec stats and some very brief blurbs.) I'm thinking maybe each "faction" could have a single page, listing each of its members, instead of a very bare page for each "character." Thoughts? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:53, 2 April 2016 (EDT)
: Just so long as they're represented here somehow. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 23:08, 2 April 2016 (EDT)

== Possible partnership with the German Transformers Wikia ==

I've been approached by the main admin of the German Transformers Wiki[http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Abatesnz#Conflict_with_the_TFWiki.net] about forming a partnership with them. We've had a long running partnership with Wookieepedia, which is also hosted on Wikia. They'd link to our pages from their pages and vice versa. Possibly we could set them up as an interlanguage link - I'd have to look into what's involved. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:51, 7 April 2016 (EDT)

== Beast Wars reorganization ==

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Demonstration]]. It's evident that all of the conflicting continuities and crap is out of control, so this seems like the cleanest approach now. It's based on the movie approach we're using, since it's a pretty similar situation. Thoughts? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:23, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
:That's fine by me. The old chronological way is becoming a clusterfudge. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:33, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

==GoBots discussions consolidated==
Since we've been discussing this topic for literally years, I thought it would be useful to consolidate it all in one place, in order, with summaries of the key decisions. It can be daunting to keep track of it all, and in recent months the rules have changed several times. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots]]. Summaries could use some work, but I tried to stick to the simple facts without editorializing. I think the important thing with the summaries is that they succinctly say roughly what was discussed and what, if any, decisions were reached. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:47, 28 April 2016 (EDT)

== "Transformers Trilogy" manga ==

(Although I'm not sure if that's the actual title.) Turns out I have it on my hard drive: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ymumej4klqkttlu/AAA2AdRbHyvvxUU6kR6b-rBCa?dl=0]. Feel free to do with as you please. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:03, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

==Alternate Names links==

Looking at [[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise's]] page, I see from the top he is sometimes known as '''Streetstar''' and '''Streetsmart'''. I know Streetstar comes from ''Wings'', but I don't know where Streetsmart comes from. I recommend a practice of making those "sometimes known as" bits into links that carry you down to the particular Fiction or Toy where the particular name comes from, like <nowiki>[[Streetwise (G1)#Wings Universe|Streetstar]]</nowiki>. Thoughts? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:20, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:I like the idea, but I would prefer ref notes to section links. Also, there are cases like Bluestreak/Silverstreak, where the alternate name is used in multiple places, and we'd have to decide how much detail we'd want to go into in those instances. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:36, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::Yeah, if an alternate name is used in multiple places, a reference note explanation attached to the name could better cover all of those in one go. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 12:42, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::I would prefer to uses refs even when the name is only used in one place. I can't quite put it into words, but using section links for this purpose just feels...''wrong''. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:55, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::Could you try to put it in words? Because section links would be ''"Click here to find what you're looking for."'' Ref notes would be ''"Click here to go to some text at the bottom of the page to tell you where to look in the middle of the page to find what you're looking for."'' Seems like an unnecessary extra step. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:32, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::I think the section link wouldn't make it very clear that it's showing you where the name is from. It looks like it's going to send you to a different page or something, then just sends you to a different section of the same page and hopes you figure out what's going on.

:::::The ref note has an advantage in that it's already associated with addendums and citations. When the reader sees a ref note, they instantly know "this will show me some details about this bit of text", while a link says "This is going to send me to another page". -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 14:05, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::...I feel like the reader would have to be pretty stupid not to understand what the link was doing. "Slingshot is sometimes known as '''Quickslinger'''." Click the link, see a toy of Slingshot called Quickslinger, with http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Slingshot_(G1) still in the address bar. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 14:21, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Ref notes would only be absolutely necessary if an alternate name is used in multiple places. I'd still rather use ref notes on all of them, but your way works just as well and it's not really worth arguing about any further. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:16, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
@Foffy: I don't see a problem for the cases I've mentioned, no, but I'm not convinced my idea is best for cases where a character is regularly known by multiple names. For instance, how would this apply to Hot Rod's page? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 15:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

*tl;dr-r (too long; didn't re-read), but absolutely agree that if Miscellaneous Prime is also called Miscellaneous Maximus, then [citation needed]. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Starscream_%28G1%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096193 i did Megascream.] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Alternate_names|see also]] --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:24, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== characters without pages ==

i do not feel compelled to create pages for [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Toxicity&diff=1096168&oldid=1072705 Scarytown] or [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Insecticon_%28WFC%29&diff=prev&oldid=1096169 Scurry Down], do you?
--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:10, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Given that this character doesn't exist and he's telling the other injured Insecticon to "stay down," no, I don't. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::Chris McFeely edit summary: We went through this when the episode aired - he's telling the other Insecticon to "stay down."
:::Thanks. Can you link me to that discussion? (Not finding it on [[Talk:Insecticon_(WFC)]] or [[Talk:Toxicity]], maybe the Community Portal archives?) i have the DVD in my computer's disc drive right now and i really don't think he's saying "stay down"; i'm quite sure i hear another syllable in the middle there. (i also think Hardshell using the other Con's name makes more sense than telling him to stay down.) But like i said, it's hard to make out what he's saying. --[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 05:37, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::I don't think there's even a discussion to link to, because editors just reverted anyone who tried to add it. He's not calling him "Scurrytown." I'm sorry, he's just not. It's the snarling voice Kaye uses. There's KIND of a "k-" sound in there, but there's no R. The Insecticon has just tried to get up, and Hardshell is telling it not to bother, and instead stay down and radio the ship. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

== A suggestion to benefit the wiki ==

Hey everyone. I've noticed that this wiki lacks some templates that would be beneficial to have when it comes to linking articles. For example, if I want to link to the G1 Starscream page, I would have to write <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]</nowiki>. That's sort of a pain to do. Over on [http://www.ssbwiki.com/ SmashWiki], we use some templates to cut down on the amount of text needed to do that kind of linking. [http://www.ssbwiki.com/Template:SSB Here's an example].

If we implemented this, one would have to write <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki> if they wanted to link to that page. That cuts down on a lot of text.

Is this a good suggestion? Btw, I still think that pages such as [[Optimus Prime (WFC)]] should be called Optimus Prime (Aligned) instead. It makes ''way'' more sense to do it that way and would make this template process a bit easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 11:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:Could be useful. But disambiguating by continuity family instead of franchise has been discussed to death and decided against repeatedly. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::I know that it's a frequently argued topic, but I think it's more relevant than ever due to the fact that we have two franchises with the same name (RID). I mean, why are [[Steeljaw (RID)]] and [[Grimlock (RID)]] not characters from the same series? It makes no sense. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:01, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::: Part of the disambiguation by series, and not by continuity family, is because sometimes character names get re-used within a universe for different characters. For instance, we have [[Steeljaw (FOC)|Steeljaw]] the Autobot lion, and Steeljaw the Decepticon wolf, both of whom exist in the Aligned universe. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 14:05, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::The problem you're having is that you're expecting the disambig tags to convey information when that's not their actual job. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 14:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::It's not? Wouldn't it be simpler then to just go numerical by appearance? Optimus Prime (1), Optimus Prime (2), etc? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:32, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::::Because then you'd have to memorise a list of numbers in order to link to the Optimus Prime that you wanted? If disambig tags were supposed to be a source of information, every single article would have one. Their actual job is to avoid having articles named the same thing. The continuity note, i.e. the ''first sentence of every article'', is the thing that's supposed to tell what franchise and continuity family a thing is from. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 15:39, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:::::::That. The current disambig tags exist to help editors remember who's who while saving us from having to type "(RID 2015)" over and over. Would you be able to tell me offhand who "Blackout III" is? They are ultimately an editing convenience and are not meant to convey every single detail about a character. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:12, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
::::So that case would move further down the hierarchy. How does that affect the idea of starting with continuity family? And it is completely ignoring the fact that the (RID) tags (and the (Universe) tags) are ambiguous in the real world sense. True, they may not be ambiguous in the narrow wiki definition, but to new and casual readers the fact that the exact same tag can refer to two different series is confusing. We should not be increasing real world ambiguity ("Which RID series is this again?") just because it doesn't cause wiki-centric ambiguity. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

oh my god you guys, '''no, stop''' --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
:I feel like disambiguation tag debates should be definitively banned, to be honest. They just go into circles and nothing ever changes. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:44, 24 May 2016 (EDT)
Typing <nowiki>[[Starscream (G1)|]]</nowiki> also works, is only slightly longer than <nowiki>{{G1|Starscream}}</nowiki>, and has the benefit of not including the overhead of expanding a template which adds processing time to any page when the site has to render it. That last one might not be a problem on a small wiki with only medium-sized pages like SmashWiki, but here it could be a big issue. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:52, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Well, to anyone who actually contributed to the discussion, thanks for your input. I can see that this sort of template isn't really what this wiki is looking for, although I do think it would make things a little easier. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:40, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-05-24T18:01:37Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-05-24T15:39:49Z

John3637881: /* A suggestion to benefit the wiki */ new section

Master Blaster

2016-05-23T14:27:37Z

John3637881: /* Continuity errors */ I think this is a good point.

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=49
|image=BW MasterBlaster title.jpg
|caption=Tarantulas suddenly realizes how all those bugs eaten by geckos feel.
|title= "Master Blaster"
|production company= [[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate= [[March 1]], 1999
|written by= [[Eric Torin]]
|directed by= [[Steve Sacks]]
|animation studio= [[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity= [[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}

'''The Predacons gain control over the body of Optimus Primal, and capture the Ark.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:BW MasterBlaster PrimalflattenWaspy.jpg|left|upright=0.85|thumb|A bug in the hand is worth...uh, washing up afterward.]]
[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] dutifully patrols the [[Maximal]]s' fortified entrance to [[Mount St. Hilary]], unaware that the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] are building something sinister in places unknown. [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]], trying another attack on the Maximals' base, sends newly promoted sub-commander [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] with a large explosive (from…somewhere) to destroy the patrolling [[Fuzor]]. Waspinator delivers the missile and destroys Silverbolt's gunning turret, and when [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]], [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]], and [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] rush outside to defend their home, Waspinator commands a full attack. Alas, the plan was only a feint to draw out Primal, and without support from additional troops, Waspinator is quickly crushed by the Maximal leader.

Hiding out of Optimus Primal's sight, [[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] blows a dart that burrows itself into Primal's foot, crawls through the Maximal leader's interior machinery, and accesses Primal's own [[spark]]. Primal disregards the infection, tells Cheetor to "take a rest" with a suspiciously Western drawl, and punches out the young Maximal.

[[File:BW MasterBlaster Primalsparkhijack.jpg|right|upright=0.85|thumb|Once these things dig in, only a special shampoo can get them out.]]
[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] returns to the Maximal base, surprised by the open doors. She finds the entire interior dark. Primal sneaks up on the arachnid, and when she reveals that [[Depth Charge (BW)|Depth Charge]] isn't with her, he grabs her as if she were a toy. With the widow restrained, Megatron and his cronies step out of the darkness. [[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] is revealed to be controlling Optimus Primal by piloting a large, mechanical suit of similar form to Primal's body. The other Maximals are being kept deactivated in a hanging cage. Megatron instructs [[Dinobot II|Dinobot]] to find-and destroy-Depth Charge, assigns [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] to watch over the imprisoned Maximals, and allows Rampage to "take care" of Blackarachnia. With that done, Megatron orders Quickstrike and the puppeteered Optimus Primal to follow him; the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] awaits!

[[File:BW MasterBlaster Megs spark.jpg|left|upright=0.85|thumb|Ye haw, ride 'em, cowboy!]]
In front of the Autobot starship, Megatron orders Quickstrike to download the access codes to him-the process fails, however, as the codes now require a Maximal spark signature to be used. This barely fazes Megatron, as he simply has Quickstrike use Optimus Primal to open the door instead. Megatron walks through the halls of the ship to find what he's looking for: his namesake, [[Megatron (G1)|the original Megatron]]. The [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] leader opens his own chest, and a tentacle reaches out of it to access the spark of his predecessor. After a bit of struggle, Megatron takes the spark into his body, and immediately collapses. While his "boss" convulses from the pain of containing two sparks, Quickstrike dumps his leader into one of the lava pits outside, giving the Ark to his real superior: Tarantulas!

[[File:BW MasterBlaster Megshand.jpg|right|upright=0.85|thumb|[[Wikia:c:terminator:Terminator 2: Judgement Day|I'll be back.]]]]
In the depths of the Maximal base, [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] gleefully torments Blackarachnia, but the she-spider overpowers the massive [[Transmetal]] crab by using telekinesis to knock him down with a steel girder. Thus freed, Blackarachnia sneaks through the base, then leads [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] away from the Maximals he's supposed to be protecting and locks him outside so she can free her team (and blast Inferno with the autoguns).

Quickstrike gives Tarantulas access to [[Teletraan I (G1)|Teletraan I]]. Tarantulas then sends Quickstrike away to destroy the Maximals while he rigs the Ark to explode, which will kill all [[Autobot]]s and [[Decepticon]]s within it. As Tarantulas leaves the Ark, Megatron emerges from the lava, now reconfigured into a dragon form by his plunge into the molten rock and the additional spark within him. Megatron burns the spider who betrayed him and tosses Tarantulas into a distant lava pool as punishment for failing.

Quickstrike, still piloting his armor, finds Blackarachnia and double-teams her using Optimus Primal's body, which is still under his control. But with a well-placed blast, she causes the two giants to fall over each other. The fall frees Optimus, who remembers what he did under Quickstrike's control, and he and Blackarachnia head back into the Ark to prevent the devastation.

[[File:BW MasterBlaster Megsflame.jpg|left|upright=0.85|thumb|Oh, this is really bold! So bold, it's not fit for human consumption!]]
Megatron finds Optimus Primal, and the two enhanced transformers battle. While Blackarachnia tries to save the Ark, Megatron shows off his new abilities against his most hated enemy. Blackarachnia saves the Ark with just a single second to spare. Optimus is then saved from Megatron by the combined firepower of the other Maximals, who force Megatron to retreat. But with the spark of the original Megatron still in his possession, Megatron has gained a new advantage in the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]].
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s|c1=
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] (1)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (8)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (9)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (10)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (11)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (13)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]|c2=
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (2)
*[[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] (3)
*[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] (4)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (5)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (6)
*[[Dinobot II|Dinobot]] (7)
*[[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] (12)

|h4=[[Decepticon]]s|c4=
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (14)
}}

==Quotes==
"Ah, sometimes deception is the better part of valor."
:—'''Megatron''', observing Waspinator's unwitting decoy attack on the Maximal base

"You'll live to regret this, crab legs."<br />
"I regret everything, my sweet. Struggle as much as you like, I enjoy it."
:—'''Blackarachnia''' as she struggles against '''Rampage'''

"Time to open me up a can of kick-keister!"
:—'''Quickstrike''', after being told to finish the other Maximals

"By the Pit, you live!"<br />
"I am not so easily destroyed. And thanks to your treachery, my power is greater than ever! Let me... ''thank'' you."
:—'''Tarantulas''' and '''Megatron'''

"I can suffer your treachery, lieutenant, but not your incompetence!"<br />
[''throws Tarantulas into the lava'']<br />
"Treachery requires ''no'' mistakes."<br />
:—'''Megatron''' reborn deals with Tarantulas

"Megatron does not yield... he ''conquers''!"
:—'''Megatron''''s response to Optimus Primal's demand for his surrender

"Eight clicks to core implosion.... five.. four... three... two... one... core implosion aborted... all systems normal... have a nice day."
:—<s>Spaceball</s>'''Teletraan I'''

"Did you think you could stand against the fury of ''both'' Megatrons?"
:—'''Megatron''' gloating to Optimus Primal

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
*When Megatron says he has "almost collected the whole set", his head has the wrong colors. Instead of his Transmetal head, the colors match that of his dragon form. Earlier shots in this scene have the correct color scheme.

===Continuity errors===
* It is unclear why Tarantulas and Quickstrike expected Megatron to expire in the lava, since Tarantulas suffers the same fate, only to pull himself free in a few moments. Though, it could've just been Quickstrike's spur of the moment idea.
**How did Megatron and Tarantulas both survive the lava when [[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] and [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] were instantly killed by lava in [[Aftermath]]? It's possible that their [[Transmetal]] bodies protected them from the effects of the lava.
* Tarantulas blowing up the ''Ark'' is a new development... one unfortunately at odds with Tarantulas' own words in "[[Tangled Web]]", where he refers to Megatron's future plans (i.e. altering time) as "madness". Ah well, [[fandom|what dork]] would remember or care about a minor muttered line a year before, eh?
* The return of Generation 1 Megatron's spark to his body would never be explicitly resolved within this series. ''Beast Wars'' Megatron was said to still hold it as of "[[Other Victories]]", and we never see or are told that he gave it back. There is only Primal's statement that "all is as it should be" (made after Megatron's capture in "[[Nemesis Part 2]]") to go on. The spark's replacement was written into the "Nemesis" script and even animated—it was simply cut for time from the final episode. A [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTFSeQXYNY clip of this animation can be seen here] and was included as an extra in Kid Rhino's DVD release of ''Beast Wars'' season 3.
* The computer that Blackarachnia and Tarantulas use seems to have been designed for human-size figures, rather than the larger Autobot occupants. Of course the controls could have been built when the Ark was constructed for the roughly human-sized Transformers, such as the ones with cassette [[alternate mode]]s.
* Why does Megatron's alternate mode change to a dragon after he is transformed? Other Transformers that went through upgrades in the series didn't get alternate [[beast mode]]s.

===Continuity notes===
* Following on from "[[Crossing the Rubicon]]", Optimus also possesses the ''Ark'' access codes, which Megatron takes advantage of.
* Blackarachnia (after saying "I can play your game too") saves the day by uploading "[[datatrax Viron]]" into Teletraan I, which is the same datatrax Tarantulas used against the [[Metal Hunter]].
* Although the toy is a [[Transmetal 2]] and has detailing consistent with the other Transmetal 2 figures, within the context of the story, Megatron's upgrade is closer to Optimus Primal's Optimal upgrade and, like such, is never called a Transmetal 2 in the series.
* Gadgets and powers:
** A techno-''blowgun?'' Well, whatever works, works, we suppose.
** Like Cheetor before her, Blackarachnia's Transmetal 2 body comes with telekinetic powers.
** Cheetor's rocket launcher/jet engine appears to function just like his old quasar cannon in robot mode.

===Transformers references===
* Well, there ''is'' [[Megatron (G1)|the original Megatron]], but he's only in [[stasis lock]].

===Real-world references===
* While revealing himself in his new form, Megatron cries out "Enter the dragon!", which is also the title of a [[Wikipedia:Enter the Dragon|Bruce Lee movie]].
* The title of the episode, "Master Blaster", is also the title of an old computer game, and a song by Stevie Wonder. However, it's clear from context that it primarily refers to the dwarf/giant duo from the film ''[[Wikipedia:Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome|Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome]]''.
* At the last second, Teletraan I aborts its self-destruct sequence with the line, "Core implosion aborted, all systems normal. Have a nice day." This is similar to a self-destruct sequence in the 1987 sci-fi parody ''[[Wikipedia:Spaceballs|Spaceballs]]''.

===Trivia===
* When Primal finally gains control of himself and tells Blackarachnia that Megatron gained control of Teletraan I, he actually says "Teletraan" instead of "Teletron". Every other time it's said in this episode, it's pronounced "Teletron".
* In an early version of the episode's plot, Megatron decided to steal and absorb the original Megatron's spark only after failing at another attempt to kill [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]].<ref>''[[Beast Wars Universe]]'' [ISBN 978-4766938005]</ref>
* The power-suit frame used by Quickstrike in this episode will later be used by the [[Vok]] to create [[Primal Prime]] in "[[Primeval Dawn Part 1]]".
* Megatron's tampering with Generation 1 Megatron's spark will have bizarre results several million years later in [[Japanese Generation 1 continuity|Japanese continuity]] when the [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|original Megatron]] battles [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] in "[[Destron Leader Megatron Black Ver.]]"
* In the scene where Rattrap and Cheetor are lugging around crates, there is a stuffed panda bear in the background.<ref>[http://sapphire15.yoll.net/bwbloops.htm Beast Wars: Mistakes and Animation Odds]</ref>

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Maître du Feu'''" (Canada, "Master of Fire")

'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Uniti per sempre'''" ("United Forever")

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Moete Dragon'''" (もえてドラゴン, "Blaze, Dragon")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[March 1]] [[2000]]

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Mestre Destruidor'''" ("Master Destroyer")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''La Furia del Dragón'''" (America, "The Fury of the Dragon")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers: Metals'' — Sssshiny! ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Volume 3 ([[Universal]])
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers: Metals'' — DVD Box 2 (Pioneer LDC) — English and Japanese audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2004 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Third Season ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Seasons 2 & 3 ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Series (Shout! Factory)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2006 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 3 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers: Beast Wars'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

Aftermath (BW episode)

2016-05-22T02:47:39Z

John3637881: /* Trivia */ Not true. I've been watching the show recently and at least the early season 3 episodes show the original Transmetal Optimus in the intro.

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=27
|image=Aftermath Cheetor quantum surge.jpg
|caption=[[Stan Bush]]'s guitar finds a victim.
|title="Aftermath"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[October 26]], 1997
|written by=[[Larry DiTillio]]
|directed by=[[Colin Davies]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
|packaged with=[[Claw Jaw#Toys|Transmetal Claw Jaw]], [[Airazor (BW)#Toys|Airazor]], [[Razorclaw (BW)#Toys|Razorclaw]]
}}
'''After the destruction of the alien machine and the death of Optimus, the remaining Maximals are left to pick up the pieces and fend off the Predacons... with some strange new upgrades.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Aftermath Megatron quantum surge.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|That's odd, I don't remember ordering a glow-in-the-dark redeco]]
At their respective bases, both the [[Maximal]]s and the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s react to [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]]'s death. The Maximals are in a state of shock, whereas the Predacons laugh, jeer and generally have a good time. However, these moods are short-lived. The destruction of the [[Planet Buster]] causes a [[quantum surge]] which very soon hits [[Earth|the planet]]. In the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]'', [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] and [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] are affected by it in the control room, as is the unconscious body of [[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] down below. The surge also severely rocks the [[Darksyde (BW)|Predacon ship]], causing [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] to fall into the CR pool while [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]], [[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] and [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] catch the surge's full effect. Megatron is thrown onto the floor of the base, while Scorponok and Terrorsaur lose control of their hover platforms and collide into each other. The collision causes both of them to fall into the lava pit, where they are terminated. After the surge, Waspinator emerges from the CR pool, joyous to have survived. He sees Megatron in the shadows, having been upgraded by the surge into a new [[Transmetal]] body.

[[File:Aftermath Rattrap Cheetor.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Look at my hands! Oh, sorry, Cheetor.]]
In the Maximal base, both Rattrap and Cheetor are startled at each other's new modes until each realizes the same has happened to himself. [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] suggests they both try out their new [[beast mode]]s and [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]]s; both end up crashing. [[Tigatron]] and Airazor go off on the hunt for the spiders who are partly responsible for Optimus Primal's death.

Under Tarantulas's control, [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] begins to leave the ''Axalon'' while he insists she bring his body along. Unbeknownst to them, the eyes of [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]]'s severed head glow back online...

[[File:Aftermath Rhinox Dinobot.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Who needs a Maximal Torture Chamber with him on your team?]]
Back upstairs, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] come back online. Rhinox orders Rattrap to tell him everything. Dinobot then announces that he should be leader, but after a stern throttling by Rhinox, he backs down.

Blackarachnia and Tarantulas escape the base only to be intercepted by Tigatron and Airazor, with the latter punching Blackarachnia for a second time. However, help for the she-spider is on its way. Megatron is never above kicking somebody while they're down, so he brings a full Predacon assault (in the form of Waspinator) to join the Tarantulas-possessed Blackarachnia in an assault on the ''Axalon''. Airazor and Tigatron are blasted offline by Megatron. The alert sounds inside the ''Axalon'', so Rhinox sends the two new Transmetals outside while he and Dinobot try to set up the [[Sentinel (BW)|defenses]]. However, Inferno emerges into the room and immediately blasts Rhinox backwards using a missile, which prompts Dinobot into a physical brawl with the Predacon.

[[File:Aftermath Megatron beast.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Shiny happy dino]]
Outside, Tarantulas forces Blackarachnia to retreat against her and Megatron's wishes. Waspinator battles Cheetor, much surprised that the "cat-bot" can fly. After a bit of a beating, Waspinator retreats. Following some more shooting, Megatron transforms into vehicle mode and charges at Rattrap, who transforms into beast mode and uses his tail to trip the Predacon. Megatron is not out of the fight yet, however, and he blasts Cheetor off the cliff. Cheetor transforms to flight mode to escape, but crashes into Rattrap. Megatron prepares to end the new bots.

Inferno and Dinobot are still locked in combat when Rhinox grabs Inferno and throws him out of the base lift. He then challenges Megatron with one of the Chainguns of Doom. Megatron realizes with only a broken Inferno in his army that he is no match for Maximals, so he calls a retreat.

Elsewhere, under one of the Planet Buster-generated storms, [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1)|two stasis pods]] are shown lying in a barren area, their DNA scanners malfunctioning.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (1)
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] (2)
*[[Tigatron]] (3)
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (4)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (12)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (13)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (14)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s
|c2=
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (5)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (6)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (7)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (8)
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (9)
*[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] (10)
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (11)

}}
==Quotes==
"Yes, I am good, aren't I?" ''[smacks Waspinator]'' "But we can discuss my brilliance later. Now, there is work to be done."<br />
"What kind of work?"<br />
"The Predacon kind. We must defeat the remaining Maximals while they mourn their dear, departed leader. This will be the final battle!"
:—'''Megatron''' wastes no time...delivering exposition to '''Terrorsaur'''.

"I'm here, inside your pretty little head, controlling your pretty little thoughts."
:—'''Tarantulas''' makes pretty little threats against Blackarachnia.

"What's with you two?" ''[gestures toward pants area]'' "Is my gear box hangin' out or somethin'?"
:—'''Rattrap''', paragon of social graces...

''[Dinobot and Rattrap are about to have a fight]''<br />
"''Enough.'' Stand down, Dinobot."<br />
"By what right do you command me? With Optimus gone, I should be—"<br />
''[Rhinox grabs Dinobot by the neck and picks him up]''<br />
"I'm in a ''bad mood''. '''''Understand?'''''"<br />
<small>"''Uh-huh.''"</small>
:—'''Rhinox''' proves to '''Dinobot''' that Maximals can be scary too.

"New packaging. Same product. '''Losers.'''"
:—'''Megatron''', not impressed with the Transmetalized Maximals.

"...but if you ask me, the Beast Wars just got a whole lot weirder."
:—'''Rattrap''', as he watches a robot T-Rex with roller skates fly away.

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
*Waspinator's gun is whipped out of his hand by Cheetor, but moments later, he transforms fully, ''including'' his gun forming his [[beast mode]]'s abdomen.
*Rattrap is seen dropping his shield (which acts as a hubcap for his wheels in beast mode) before Cheetor crashes into him, but, upon impact, both hubcaps are seen on his back.

===Continuity errors===

===Continuity notes===
*The planet survived the Vok attack, but it's clear that the ecosystem didn't make it out unscathed. Notably, the jungle that separated the ''Axalon'' from the ''Darksyde'' appears to have been burnt away, with only a few stumps remaining.
*There are methods to the madness that is Transmetallization. All of the original ten Transformers who did not emerge from stasis pods on Earth would have become Transmetals, but several of them were protected from the quantum surge in a [[CR chamber]]. For reason that have never been explained, Transformers born on Earth were immune to the quantum surge.
*While both ships survived the Planet Buster's attack, the Quantum Surge severely damaged their structures. The ''Darksyde'' is now more gray than green and the rear section of the fuselage has collapsed and bent. The ''Axalon'''s surfaces now look very deteriorated and the ship is bent/fractured at about the halfway point of the forward fuselage.
*Gadgets and powers:
** As the debut of the Transmetals, the episode spends a good chunk of its time showcasing all their new features, particularly their "vehicle" modes.
** Rattrap's beast mode thighs can detatch in robot mode and be used as shields.

===Real-world references===
* Terrorsaur's death scene resembles that of the Terminator in ''Terminator 2: Judgment Day''.

===Trivia===
*A new title sequence debuted this episode for the new season. It effectively summarized the events of "[[Other Voices, Part 2|Other Voices]]" and "Aftermath", which was a bit odd since major story points like the quantum surge appeared in the credits before they actually got shown in the episode itself. Although the credits "spoil" the debut of the Fuzors and most of the Transmetals, Optimus Primal's Transmetal form is not shown, presumably in an effort to keep his return in the third episode a surprise.
*As they plunge into the lava, Terrorsaur and Scorponok are glowing with the same Transmetallization energy; this was written in as an "out" in case the writers needed to bring them back.
**They would come back in [[IDW Publishing|one continuity]], about 10 years after the fact.
*Waspinator was originally intended to die in this episode, but due to fan popularity and the fact the writers needed a character for comic relief, he was granted amnesty. This is somewhat reflected in Waspinator's line as he emerges from the CR chamber: ''"Waspinator is...'''alive'''! Hee hee!"''
*The recap of the last episode actually shows Optimus approaching the center of the moon before the explosion, a scene cut from the first season finale.
* Inferno can survive getting shot point blank in the head. Awesome!

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Et le Combat Reprend'''" ("And the Battle Resumes")

:*''Title:'' "'''Contrecoup'''" ("Aftermath")

'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Dopo l'esplosione'''" ("After the Blast")

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Kaette Kita ze!'''" (帰ってきたぜ!, "We're Back!")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[October 6]] [[1999]]
::*In Japan, the second and third seasons of ''Beast Wars'' were rebranded as a new series: ''Beast Wars Metals''. Release of this series was delayed, with the original cartoons ''[[Beast Wars II: Super Lifeform Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars II]]'' and ''[[Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo (cartoon)|Beast Wars Neo]]'' filling the broadcast gap between ''Beast Wars'' and ''Beast Wars Metals''.
::*The episode "[[Bad Spark]]" actually premiered in Japan nearly a year before this proper "first" episode, as part of the theatrical film ''[[Beast Wars Special Super Lifeform Transformers]]'', released in December of 1998. To keep viewers up to date, the "Bad Spark" segment of the film was preceded by numerous clips from this episode.
::*Just for the record, the adlibbing in the ''Beast Wars Metals'' series is exponentially increased from the (already excessive) adlibbing in the ''Beast Wars'' series. Additionally, the self-referential, goofy and relentless sense of humor is ratcheted up, making the Japanese dub of ''Metals'' almost a satire of itself.
::*When [[Predacon computer|NAVIko]] alerts Megatron to the incoming quantum surge near the start of the episode, she flusters and mixes up her words. Her alert at first is the declaration '''"Hentai!"''' She then corrects herself and shouts '''"Taihen!"''' ("Oh no!"). I think you all know what "hentai" popularly means, but the word can also be used to mean "transformation" or "change". Get your minds out of the gutters.
::*As Terrorsaur sinks to his doom in the lava, he shrieks out some last words: "What is this!?" Scorponok, meanwhile, just repeats his verbal tic over and over before groaning: "Orya Orya Orya!"
::*Rattrap's and Cheetor's conversation about their new appearances is less a "conversation" and more just the two of them saying "Pikapika!" ("Glittery!") over and over again. The incessant use of the phrase is dated, but a reference to the massive [[Pokeformers|Pokémon]] craze sweeping Japan (particularly in the ''way'' they say "Pikapika", devolving into Pikachu impressions as they repeat it).
::*Whenever a Transmetal (or just "Metal", in this dub) transforms to their third-mode, they now announce it as "Vehicle Mode!"
::*When Tarantulas forces Blackarachnia to disobey Megatron's orders and dessert the battle, as she webslings away with Tarantulas's inert body, Blackarachnia screams a mocking, "See ya later!" to Megatron. This runs completely counter to the ''intent'' of the scene, as Blackarachnia had just gone on about how she didn't want to risk disobeying and infuriating Megatron again so soon after her most recent betrayal. Another fine example of [[Yoshikazu Iwanami]]'s excessive adlibbing style.
::*When Megatron first transforms into Transmetal T-rex mode, he squeals in a high-pitched voice, "''So cooooooool!''"
::*As Megatron retreats and carts off Inferno, he howls in a silly voice, "So long!"
::*And on the subject of silly voices, when Dinobot finally exits the Axalon after the battle, he dramatically announces "Here's Dinobot! ...Huh?" in a really goofy voice (and, obviously, this would seem quite counter to his established personality).

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Consequências'''" ("Consequences")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''El Día Después'''" ("The Day After")

:*''Title:'' "'''Las Consecuencias'''" (America, "The Consequences")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 1998 — Pack in video with [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] & [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]]<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 1998 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Series 2 / Volume 1 ([[wikipedia:Siren Visual|Siren Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1999 — ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers: Metals'' — We're Back! ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 1999 — Pack in video with Transmetal [[Clawjaw]]([[Universal]])
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers: Metals'' — DVD Box 1 (Pioneer LDC) — English and Japanese audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2004 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Second Season ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Seasons 2 & 3 ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Series (Shout! Factory)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2006 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 2 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers: Beast Wars'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]
[[Category:Pack-in material]]

Deep Metal

2016-05-21T00:48:10Z

John3637881: /* Continuity notes */ The sentence was never finished.

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=41
|series2=Metals
|ep2=15
|prev2=Where Is the Banana?
|image=Deep Metal title shot.JPG
|caption=Looks trustworthy enough.
|title="Deep Metal"
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[November 1]], 1998
|written by=[[Larry DiTillio]]
|directed by=[[Owen Hurley]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''Depth Charge arrives on Earth, continuing his obsessive quest to hunt down Protoform X.'''

==Synopsis==
On Earth, in their new base in the newly fortified [[Mount St. Hilary]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] has trouble working with the hardware salvaged from the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]''. [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] considers this as another reason they need help from the [[Maximal Elder]]s to arrive soon as possible, but Rhinox doubts the help is coming. Yet as they speak, help from [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] is indeed coming—just not exactly the kind they were hoping for. In a sector declared off limits by the High Council, a mysterious Cybertronian hunts for Protoform X. However, his ship is soon pulled into a transwarp portal that suddenly appears.

[[File:Deep Metal Inferno Rampage.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|I'm going to shoot first, and you're not.]]
Outside the mountain, [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] leads [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] in a planned invasion of the Maximals' current base. But the stranger entering Earth's atmosphere distracts Rampage away from the exercise, leaving Inferno to attack the Maximals on his own. The fire ant is easily defeated by a rock. It was a pretty big rock.

[[File:Deep Metal Depthcharge Cheetor.jpg|right|upright=1.1|thumb|I am Batmanta!]]
[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] also notices the [[Starhopper|spacecraft]] descending into [[Grid Alpha Seven]] and flies to check it out. Receiving a radio contact from Cheetor, Primal heads out to join him. Cheetor watches the spacecraft landing in a body of water, but in the middle of a radio update to Optimus, Rampage fires a rocket to blast the Maximal out of the air, saying this is between him and the visitor. Underwater, the newly arrived Maximal, [[Depth Charge (BW)|Depth Charge]], scans a manta for his [[beast mode]] and leaves his transport, eager to hunt Protoform X. Surveying the area, Depth Charge finds Cheetor sinking to the bottom of the water. Depth Charge rescues his fellow Maximal, but only gives his name and not much of anything else when he strands the cat-bot on an island.

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]], wondering where Rampage went after abandoning Inferno, sends [[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] to hunt the giant crab.

Underwater again, Depth Charge homes in on his quarry's signal. However, what he finds are nothing but rocks. Rampage then jumps from the ground and latches onto Depth Charge, greeting the Maximal as his "old playmate". The two battle, and Depth Charge lifts their combat into the air. Rampage blasts the manta and forces the fight onto the beach, but finds himself impaled on a stalagmite. While the two giant Transmetals are disabled, Primal arrives and meets with Cheetor, who fills in the Maximal commander on what's happened and tells him of Depth Charge...a name that Primal recognizes.

[[File:Deep Metal Rampage Depthcharge.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Come on, get up and fight like a fish!]]
Rampage heals and approaches Depth Charge, but Depth Charge awakens and fights back. The two show off their abilities, but Depth Charge wins the fight by throwing his tail-spike into Rampage's weaponry, causing explosive feedback. Quickstrike shows up and fires at Depth Charge with a disabling poison blast, but Primal easily takes out Quickstrike. But thanks to Quickstrike's interruption, Rampage has had the time to sneak away. Primal and Cheetor bring Depth Charge back to their base.

[[File:Deep Metal Depthcharge Optimus.jpg|right|upright=1.1|thumb|You are too big!]]
As Depth Charge heals, Primal and Rhinox explain that Depth Charge was in charge of security for [[Colony Omicron]] before Protoform X devoured all the other inhabitants of it. Seeking vengeance, Depth Charge spent four stellar cycles hunting X before he captured the maniac and petitioned the [[Maximal High Council|High Council]] to find some way of executing him. Instead, Protoform X was placed on the ''Axalon'' to be dumped. Depth Charge thus followed the ''Axalon'' through [[transwarp]] by tracking X's energy signature, intending to finish the job he started.

Depth Charge awakens repaired and exits the CR Chamber. He blows off the Maximals, showing obvious contempt for Optimus Primal. He makes it out of the room before stopping short at the ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'', and the Maximals explain the gravity of the situation. He leaves to go hunt Protoform X, with no interest in the rest of the Beast Wars and saving history. Cheetor wonders if he'll be back, and Optimus says that before Rampage, he would never have left.

Meanwhile, Rampage destroys the vehicle Depth Charge used to come to the planet.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s|c1=
* [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (1)
* [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (2)
* [[Depth Charge (BW)|Depth Charge]] (3)
* [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (7)
* [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] (9)
* [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (12)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]|c2=
* [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (4)
* [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] (5)
* [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (6)
* [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (8)
* [[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] (10)
* [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (11)

}}

==Quotes==
"Inferno blow up, Waszzpinator must salvage. Waszzpinator blow up, ''nobody'' salvage! Why universe hate Waszzpinator?"
:—'''Waspinator''' bemoans his fate at the hands of cruel <s>writers</s> destiny.

"I hate water."
:—'''Cheetor''', after finding both his commlink and jets are busted.

"Greetings, old playmate. So glad you could come!"<br />
"X!"<br />
"I'm called Rampage now! A bit obvious, but to the point. Don't you think?"<br />
:—'''Rampage''' and '''Depth Charge''' reintroduce themselves.

"Ignore the pain: it's only going to get worse!"<br />
:—Words to die by from '''Rampage'''.

"What's with [[Depth Charge (BW)|him]]?"<br />
"Eh, probably rust."
:—'''Cheetor''' and '''Rattrap'''

"It's not revenge I'm looking for, it's justice."
:—Words to live by from '''Depth Charge'''.

"X is not alone. He's a Predacon now under Megatron's control. There are six of them."<br />
"I've gotta hand it to ya, Primal, when you screw up, you do it big time. But thanks for the tip."
:—'''Optimus Primal''' attempts to warn '''Depth Charge''', for all the good it does.

"It was really so very nice of you to come. So glad you could stay. Oh, we'll have such fun. Ho-ho, yeah! [crazed laughter]"
:—'''Rampage''' offers a hearty welcome to his arch-nemesis.

==Notes==
[[File:Starhopper deepmetal.jpg|right|upright=1.1|thumb|Just tell 'em it was custom-made for ya.]]

===Animation and technical errors===
* As his computer warns him to activate a repair sequence after defeating Rampage, Depth Charge's hands suddenly have four fingers instead of three.

===Continuity errors===
*How ''is'' Rampage eluding [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron's]] scanners? Various episodes hinted that it might be related to Rampage hiding out underwater, but it's never made clear.
*When Depth Charge first scans his beast form, he yells "Maximize" to transform to [[beast mode]] instead of saying "Beast mode." He does this many more times over the course of the season. It could be that Depth Charge has his activation code keyed for activating his alt mode (now his beast mode), while most others prefer to use it for going to [[robot mode]].

===Continuity notes===
*The ground outside of the Ark's cave is rutted and charred, the result of the Maximals dragging in tons of salvaged ''Axalon'' bits behind the scenes in the previous episode. Rhinox is still working on rebuilding the Maximal headquarters after the ''Axalon'''s destruction.
*When Depth Charge first enters Earth's solar system, he is informed by his ship's navi-computer that the area was declared off-limits by order of the High Council. This particular bit of backstory never got explicitly mentioned on the show, but was spelled out by the story editors' posts on the Internet. Earth is off-limits because of some undecided-upon catastrophe, as well as to protect it from time-altering thieves such as Megatron.
*Notably, the episode refers to a "High Council" rather than the usual "Council of Elders" (and ''also'' refers to the Elders). This could just be an error, though if we take it literally then Cybertron has more than one branch of government; the Elders, however, are the ones who Rhinox says would send a rescue ship, so they'd be the primary Council.
* Depth Charge and Optimus Primal are established to have known another, with Depth Charge mentioning Primal's original mission of carrying Protoform X off Cybertron and into exile.

===Transformers references===

===Real-world references===

===Trivia===
* The temporal anomaly that transports Depth Charge to prehistoric Earth is never fully explained. It causes him to transmetalize, which would presumably make it related (or at least similar) to the [[quantum surge]] produced when the [[Planet Buster]] was destroyed. But the surge was long gone from Earth space by that point. In physical form, the anomaly more closely resembles the warp portals used by the [[Vok]] and their constructs, so it could perhaps be related to the destruction of the [[Metal Hunter]]. And given its time-traveling properties, it could even be related to the time storm from "[[Optimal Situation]]". The show provides no further explanation.
*Depth Charge's space craft totally looks like his vehicular alternade mode.
*Waspinator appears in this episode and does not get scrapped in any way. Run for the bomb shelters, it's the end of the world!
*Rampage somehow senses the approach of Depth Charge before Depth Charge has even crossed through the temporal anomaly. One of the many unexplained mysteries about the full extent of Protoform X's powers.

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Les Profondeurs'''" (Canada, "The Deep")

'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Dal profondo degli abissi'''" ("From the Depths of the Abysses")

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Ēi!'''" (えーいっ!, "Rrray!")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[January 12]] [[2000]]
::*"Ei!" can be a grunt of effort or growl of frustration, but ''ei'' (海鷂魚, 鱏, or 鱝) also means "(sting)ray".

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Metal das Profundezas'''" ("Metal from the Depths")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Metal Profundo'''" ("Deep Metal")

:*''Title:'' "'''Metal de Profundidad'''" (America, "Deep Metal")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers: Metals'' — Rrray! ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Volume 1 ([[Universal]])
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers: Metals'' — DVD Box 2 (Pioneer LDC) — English and Japanese audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Vol. 1 (Universal)<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2004 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Third Season ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Seasons 2 & 3 ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Series (Shout! Factory)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2006 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 3 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers: Beast Wars'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

Megatron (KOU)

2016-05-19T18:07:01Z

John3637881: /* Behind the Music */

{{factions|hofsilver}}
{{disambig3|Megatron}}
:''Megatron is a rocker from the [[Knights of Unicron (franchise)|Knights of Unicron]] [[continuity family]].''

[[File:KOUbooklet-Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=2.1]]
If you were to ask '''Megatron''', he would tell you that only he truly has "[[The Touch]]," and deserves to lead the [[Knights of Unicron (band)|Knights of Unicron]] to musical greatness! He is constantly vying for [[Optimus Prime (KOU)|Optimus Prime]]'s position as lead singer, even going so far as to enlist an army of [[Vehicon (KOU)|Vehicon]] roadies to side with him. Megatron's various power plays have resulted in petty in-fighting that regularly threatens to split the band. Nonetheless, as the Knights' lead guitarist he is integral to their legendary status in the music industry.

==Fiction==
===''Behind the Music''===
Megatron was once part of the band "Bumblebee and the Hive," until the lead singer shredded his audio box. In order for the band to continue, new talent needed to be recruited. That talent was Optimus Prime, who would serve as Megatron's constant rival in the following years, as the newly rechristened Knights of Unicron rocked Cybertron's music scene. The first major squabble Megatron and Optimus got into was over Prime's [[Arcee (KOU)|girlfriend]], and her growing influence over the band. At this time, Megatron began to publicly question Optimus's commitment to the Knights. Following a brief break-up, the band reunited for the "Cybertronian Democracy" tour, with Vehicon roadies hired to help out with the increasingly demanding load to keep the tour on track. As the tour neared its end, an all-out backstage brawl took place. Though the Vehicons took Megatron's side, claiming he was unfairly blamed for triggering the incident, the lot of them walked out, leaving the band without its lead guitarist.

Pursuing a solo career, Megatron organized an invite-only show at the underground club, The Forge. At this time, Megatron's elitism becomes increasingly obvious, as he turns away thousands of bots to his private concert. A year later, when [[Smooth Jazz]] attempted to perform his own show at The Forge, Megatron refused to leave the stage, leading to an impromptu battle of the bands. The crowds side with Megatron, and Smooth Jazz loses the battle and his sonic circuits in the process. Empowered by his victory, Megatron continued to challenge musicians on-stage nightly, with none able to defeat him. Declaring himself "the most powerful force in rock," Megatron retires from recording albums, only performing live for those he deems worthy.

At some point, bootleg recordings of Megatron's performances began to circulate, leading to a lengthy court battle between Megatron and the file-sharing service Botster.

Prior to the Knights' 2014 reunion tour, Megatron was the lead for his own band which, despite his best efforts, never made it to the top of the charts. {{storylink|Knights of Unicron (band)#Behind the Music pack-in booklet|Behind the Music}}
{{-}}

==Games==
===''Transformers Legends''===
Due partly to Megatron and Optimus's constant squabbles, the Knights of Unicron found themselves vying to find a new direction for the band, and began scouting for talent. After a series of grueling auditions, Megatron and the rest of the band welcomed [[Smooth Jazz]] into their ranks. Years of glorious thrashing followed. Megatron and Optimus's rivalry eventually came to a head once more unfortunately. The band split and went their separate ways, though predicting they would reunite in the future once more would be a safe bet. {{storylink|Knights of Unicron (Legends)|Knights of Unicron}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===''Knights of Unicron''===
*'''Megatron'''
{{Charstubtoys}}

[[Category:Hall of Fame characters]]
[[Category:Knights of Unicron]]

Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)

2016-05-11T21:16:39Z

John3637881: /* Transformers references */

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=29
|image=Coming of the Fuzors 2 Predacons sunset.jpg
|caption=Let the battle begin!
|title="Coming of the Fuzors" (Part 2)
|production company=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[November 9]], 1997
|written by=[[Bob Forward]]
|directed by=[[Cal Shumiatcher]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}
'''The outnumbered Maximals must defend their base from a Predacon assault while Rhinox takes a dangerous journey.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Coming of the Fuzors 2 Dinobot Rattrap.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Powerlinxing gone horribly wrong]]
[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]], and [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] attempt to hold off six Predacons some distance from their base, to allow [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] to complete his mission to travel through the [[Allspark|Matrix]]. When [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] orders them to take no survivors, [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] protests, saying they should let the Maximals surrender, only to be struck by the irate Predacon commander. When Silverbolt is perplexed by their resistance, Megatron realizes that they are keeping them from their base. He orders [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] and Silverbolt to head to the ''[[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]]''. Cheetor takes to the air, and Rattrap converts to [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]], ordering Dinobot to hop on and provide cover fire (disgusting the former Predacon).

[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]], however, is using the psychic link to force [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] to search for information on the [[Golden Disk (Voyager)|Golden]] [[Golden Disk (Vok)|Disks]]. While she searches through the files, she discovers something of importance, but refuses to show Tarantulas. When Tarantulas is rendered unconscious by a boulder, Blackarachnia downloads the information, then destroys the computer, claiming that it was boobytrapped.

[[File:Coming of the Fuzors 2 Silverbolt staff.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|No organic lifeforms were harmed in the making of this episode. Several Cybertronian lifeforms were.]]
Reaching the ''Axalon'', Silverbolt is shot down by the [[autogun]]s, and captured by the Maximals. Dinobot prepares to destroy him, but Rattrap and Cheetor prevent him, instead taking him in to repair him. Rhinox, who has finished, tells the Maximals they must hold the Predacons off for a little while longer. Inside the ''Axalon'', a charge hits the device Rhinox was connected to, heading to a [[stasis pod]] with a [[blank]] [[protoform]]. Outside, the shields fail under the fire, and the Maximals engage—to discover that they are out of ammo. The Predacons seriously injure the Maximals.

[[File:Coming of the Fuzors 2 Optimus Primal.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|"Check out my new pec-implants. I only had to sell my old body to get 'em."]]
Having waited a long time for their victory, the Predacons approach, prepared to deliver the killing blow. Before they can finish the Maximals off, there is an explosion in the hull of the ''Axalon''. When the smoke clears, the Maximals and Predacons alike are shocked to see the cause of the explosion—[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]]. The Predacons attempt to destroy him, but Primal, now with his own [[Transmetal]] body, causes the Predacons to scatter. Primal takes to the air, dispatching the rest of the Predacons. Megatron attempts to kill Primal, but Silverbolt knocks Megatron off a cliff, defecting to the Maximals.

After the battle and some repairs, Primal inquires as to how the new bodies do with absorbing energon. Rhinox remarks that all the energon within the area either detonated or was converted to [[Energon cube]]s, so it isn't really a problem right now. They'll have to wait for [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]]'s report on the rest of the planet. In the meantime, Primal remarks that he has to put his house in order, such as get to know the new additions, and remove Rattrap's personal effects from his quarters.

[[File:Coming of the Fuzors 2 Blackarachnia.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|She's got a twinkle in her eye.]]
At the [[Darksyde (BW)|Predacon base]], Blackarachnia tells Megatron that Dinobot stole the Disks and destroyed the computers. Megatron and Tarantulas ask if anything from the back ups can be recovered, and when Blackarachnia reveals that it was totally destroyed, Megatron smashes Tarantulas into the wall in rage. Megatron then declares that the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] has entered a new phase, while, unseen, binary code flashes across Blackarachnia's eyes.
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (4)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (5)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (6)
*[[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] (8)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (10)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (12)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s
|c2=
*[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] (1)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (2)
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (3)
*[[Quickstrike (BW)|Quickstrike]] (7)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (9)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (11)
}}

==Quotes==
"Prepare for a full attack!"<br />
"What? We outnumber them more than two to one."<br />
"Yes..."<br />
"We have twice their firepower."<br />
"Yes..."<br />
"We should give them a chance to surrender!"<br />
"Mmm...''no''." [''bashes him aside'']
:—'''Megatron''' and '''Silverbolt''' have a tactical disagreement.

"Uhm, does it have to be quick? Cause after we cripple 'em, I'd kinda like to enjoy their ''sufferin''' for a while.<br />
"I like how you think Quickstrike, but business before pleasure." <br />
:—'''Quickstrike''' and '''Megatron''' being on the same page.

"To think, that a warrior must become a... a ''rat'' patrol."<br />
:—'''Dinobot''' on having to ride Rattrap.

"Eh, we would've been here sooner if Dinobutt wasn't such a porker."<br />
"The vilest ride of my life!"
:—'''Rattrap''' and '''Dinobot'''

"Bahhh! Maximal sentiment! Oh, I must've been defective to defect."
:—'''Dinobot'''

"Am I back?"<br />
"Well, the machine said so. Oh, but you had me worried for a second. Where'd ya go, anyway?"<br />
"Where all are one."<br />
"Oh, where all are– what?!"
:—'''Rhinox''' and '''Rattrap'''

"Comes... the dawn."<br />
"And...''[Dinobot's arm falls off]''...our doom."
:—'''Rhinox''' and '''Dinobot'''

"Move out, Predacons; we've waited a long time for this. Yeeeess...let us be close enough to ''enjoy'' it."
:-'''Megatron''' prepares to finish the Maximals in the most overly dramatic way possible: point-blank execution.

"Well, that's just ''prime''!"
:-First line of the new Transmetal '''Optimus Primal'''.

''(Silverbolt knocks Megatron off a cliff)''<br />
"Consider that my resignation from the Predacons, Megatron! ''(to Primal)'' I know now that my place was always with the Maximals. May I join you?"<br />
"Well...I like your résumé."
:—'''Silverbolt''' and '''Optimus Primal'''

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
*When Megatron opens fire on the Maximals the second time in this episode, his middle, ring, and pinky "fingers" are shown clipping through his cannon.
*While in pursuit of Rattrap and Dinobot, Megatron transforms from his [[beast mode]] in mid-flight and continues to attack from the air, yet his VTOL engines are inactive on his back rather than deployed. In the same scene, his tail cannon is on the wrong arm.
*Before the Maximals begin getting hammered by the Preds, Rhinox is on top of Rattrap, with him either clipping through Rattrap's rear wheel, or the wheel has no interior.
*As Rattrap is hanging off the device he pulls Rhinox out of, his left pectoral is all messed up. The com-link is missing and it appears almost inside out. The error lasts for the full scene too, at least until a cut.

===Continuity errors===
* Tarantulas and Waspinator arrive again mid-battle, despite having already arrived at the end of the previous episode.
** Tarantulas and Waspinator are also seen at the very beginning when the Predacons first open fire, despite only arriving (again) later. Megatron's line "Excellent! Reinforcements have arrived" only makes the continuity error all the more glaring.
* Silverbolt claims that the Predacons outnumber the Maximals "more than two to one". As there are only six Predacons present, the odds are exactly two to one.
* Waspinator and Silverbolt take off for the Maximal base twice, clearly going over the Maximals' heads a second time after the commercial break; the Maximals then reassert the danger of the situation in different phrasing than before. Presumably such a flagrant "error" is a sly stylistic reference to older cartoons which would often repeat actions between acts and episodes, sometimes in [[Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2|contradictory ways]].
* Funny things happen with ammunition:
** Dinobot says his weapon is depleted, despite clearly having ammunition bandoleers crisscrossed over his torso. The weapon gets fired more times before the episode ends, anyway.
** The Predacons have a seemingly limitless amount of ammunition, while the Maximals exhaust their supply in a questionably short period. Rhinox in particular should have fully loaded weapons when he enters the fight. This was almost certainly an intentional choice by the writers, to fit the episode's thematic homage to spaghetti western serials.
* An earlier script revision called for the elevator into the Maximal base to be destroyed during the fight, giving Primal a more practical reason to blow a hole in the side of his own base.<ref>[http://bwtf.com/bw/tvshow/episodes/seasontwo/cotftwo/cotftwoscript.pdf "Coming of the Fuzors" (Part 2) script at Benson Yee's site]</ref> Oh well, maybe the big guy was in a hurry.
* Also, how can Cheetor's laser weapon even run out of ammo? (Unless he was just out of energy.)

===Continuity notes===
* Rattrap has filled Optimus's quarters with his things, despite the latter's warning not to do so in "[[Other Voices, Part 2|Other Voices]]".
* Rhinox reports that all the unstable Energon in the area was either destroyed or converted to stable [[Energon cube]]s by the [[quantum surge]], negating the threat of energon buildup. The Maximals are waiting for a report from Tigatron and Airazor regarding the status of the rest of the planet regarding unstable Energon. Tigatron and Airazor would be abducted by aliens<ref>[[Other Visits (Part 1)]]</ref> before being able to file that report.
* Gadgets and powers:
** Because the Transmetal toys didn't come with separate guns, the animators had to come up with creative solutions. This episode sees most of the Transmetallized characters use their "weapons" in one way or another.
** Cheetor's hands can combine to form his beast mode head, with the blasts emanating from its mouth.
** Optimus Primal's back armor can detach and flip around to form a kind of machine-gun harness.

===Transformers references===
[[File:Rubber ducky cotf2.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|How many Starscreams are there on this planet, anyway?]]
* While Blackarachnia is searching through Megatron's stuff, a gray model of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s head is in the pile. (It's too small to be the real thing, given that Beast Warriors are shown later in the series to be much smaller than Generation 1 characters.)
* Other items in the pile include a model Supermarine Spitfire, a model helicopter, a number of books, the [[wikipedia:Holy Grail|Holy Grail]], three identical spiky planets, a model rocket, a pocket-watch, and a [[Rubber Ducky|rubber ducky]].
* During one of Rhinox's trips through the [[Allspark|Matrix]], near the end of the episode, the [[Autobot]] [[Matrix of Leadership]] is seen floating.
* When Rattrap asks where Rhinox went, he describes the Matrix as "[['Til all are one|where all are one]]".

===Real-world references===
*''[[wikipedia:The Rat Patrol|The Rat Patrol]]'' was a 1960s TV show about a group of Allied soldiers fighting Rommel's Afrika Corps on the North African front during World War II.
* This episode continues the Spaghetti Western film references, especially when Optimus fights Inferno.
*After Rattrap throws a rock in the air as an example of what would happen if they moved away from the cover of the boulder, it's blasted into a tiny pebble and hits the ground. All three Maximals' "eyes" then pop out of their heads towards the rock in the fashion of the eyeball gag in classic Tex Avery cartoons.

===Trivia===
* Blackarachnia's theft of the Golden Disk data would have consequences carrying through the remainder of the series.
* Though neither admits it, it seems likely that both Tarantulas and Megatron see through Blackarachnia's sleight-of-hand with the backup data tracks. Blackarachnia tells Megatron that the computer was destroyed by Dinobot... after telling Tarantulas that it was destroyed because it was booby trapped. Tarantulas says nothing to contradict this lie to Megatron, and later interrogates her when the chance presents itself in "[[Bad Spark]]". Megatron likewise guesses the truth and attempts to strong-arm the data from her in "[[The Agenda (Part III)]]".
* Speaking of Inferno, there were plans to have him be a reborn version of Megatron,<ref>[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&q=inferno+megatron 1997 Bob Forward interview on ATT]</ref> but those plans obviously never came to be. This abandoned plot was hinted when the two flyers crash into one another, and recover only to find their heads on the wrong bodies.
* As of the end of this episode, four of the eight members of Primal's team have spent time as Predacons, one way or another. Dinobot was originally a Predacon, but left [[Beast Wars (Part 1)|in the first episode]], Rattrap briefly defected in "[[Double Jeopardy]]" as part of an infiltration, Rhinox was forcibly converted (and subsequently restored) in "[[Dark Designs]]", and Silverbolt was duped into joining Megatron's side in [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1)|the previous episode]].
* In the Canadian broadcasts of this episode Tarantulas calls Blackarachnia "Widow" rather than "Witch".
*After the Maximals run out of ammo and the Predacons launch a full gunfire barrage, Dinobot stands up roaring at them, only to get shot in the crotch by Waspinator (You can hear his weapon go off right beforehand), bending over slightly and groaning from the pain.
* At the episode's end, Megatron activates his beast mode's roller skates while in robot mode, delivering his final monologue while skating around the Darksyde, before transforming into his beast mode and backwards skating into the darkness. It's rather goofy, to say the least.

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Nouveaux Arrivants - 2<sup>e</sup> partie'''" ("New Arrivals - 2nd Part")

:*''Title:'' "'''Fuzors 2'''"

'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Lo sbarco - Parte 2'''" ("The Landing - Part 2")

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Yomigaere Convoy'''" (よみがえれコンボイ, "Convoy Reborn")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[October 20]] [[1999]]
::*The opening firefight is hilarious, as a running gag in the Japanese dub sees all characters shout meaningless noises whenever they fire their weapons. With all the rapid cuts, it's just a bunch of characters manically screaming gibberish at each other.
::*Likewise hilarious, Silverbolt's habit of screaming English language phrases comes into play when Primal is resurrected and goes lumbering through the Axalon. When Silverbolt awakens and sees Primal, he screams a ridiculous-sounding "''WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?''"
::*In a genuinely funny bit of adlibbing, as Silverbolt kicks Megatron off the cliff, Megatron screams, "''What is thiiiis!?''" Silverbolt then calls down to him, "I don't want to be a Predacon anymore!" Megatron courteously replies as he plummets, "''Oh, I seeeeeee!''" Then, after Silverbolt tells Primal that he wants to join the Maximals, Megatron screams, "''How long have I been falliiiiiiiing?''"

'''Malaysian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Fuzor Baru 2'''" (New Fuzors Part 2)

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''A Chegada dos Fuzores Parte 2'''" ("The Coming of the Fuzors Part 2")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' "'''La Llegada de los Fuzors (Parte 2)'''" ("The Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)")

:*''Title:'' "'''Los Recién Llegados Segunda Parte'''" ("The Newcomers Second Part")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 1998 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Series 2 / Volume 1 ([[wikipedia:Siren Visual|Siren Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Canada.png|20px|Canada]] 1998 — ''Beast Wars'' — Optimus Lives! ([[Alliance Atlantis]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Canada.png|20px|Canada]] 1998 — ''Robots-Bêtes'' — L'Empreinte D'Optimus (Alliance Atlantis) — French audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1999 — ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers: Metals'' — Convoy Reborn ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2001 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Volume 5 ([[Universal]])
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers: Metals'' — DVD Box 1 (Pioneer LDC) — English and Japanese audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2004 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Second Season ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Seasons 2 & 3 ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Series (Shout! Factory)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2006 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 2 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers: Beast Wars'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

Other Voices, Part 2

2016-05-11T13:20:57Z

John3637881: /* Quotes */ Surprised that wasn't linked/mentioned on the page.

{{episode
|series=BWtoon
|ep=26
|image=Other_Voices_2_Optimus_pod.jpg
|caption=[[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|Here we go again...]]
|title="Other Voices" Part 2
|production=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|airdate=[[April 1]], [[1997]]
|written by=[[Larry DiTillio]]
|directed by=[[Ezekiel Norton]]
|animation studio=[[Mainframe Entertainment]]
|continuity=[[Beast Wars continuity]]
}}

'''As the alien machine begins destroying the planet's energon, Optimus devises a desperate plan to destroy the device.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Other Voices 2 Tigatron Cheetor.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Beautiful things never turn out good.]]
Out on patrol, [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]] stare in awe at "the light at the end of the world", as [[Planet Buster|the alien machine]] continues powering up in space. [[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] makes contact and orders them to return to base. [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] is pessimistic about their chances of survival, but Primal assures him that [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] will find a way for them to survive.

The [[Bio-Dome|alien bungalow]] finishes transferring power to the moon, and in a flash, [[Vok|the aliens]] depart: "Termination sequence engaged. Return to [[Nexus Zero]]."

[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] and the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] observe this from [[Darksyde (BW)|their base]]. Confronted with a machine intended to destroy them, Megatron activates a special program and scans the [[Axalon (BW)|Maximal base]], locating the spiders and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] within.

[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] is nearly finished converting a stored [[stasis pod]] into his escape ship. [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] observes that it's a little cramped for two... but, weapon drawn, she has no intention of sharing the ride. Inferno arrives just then, blasts her, and sets Tarantulas on fire, knocking him out. Back at the Predacon base, Megatron detects the aborted flow of data to the stasis pod ship and reacts with fury.

[[File:Other Voices 2 Blackarachnia Inferno.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|A girl that can handle a gun, awesome!]]
Inferno starts to examine Tarantulas's work, but is attacked by Blackarachnia, who eludes him with a display of gymnastics before blasting him with his own gun. Picking up Tarantulas's cyber-link goggles, she forms a link with the unconscious Tarantulas to obtain the data needed to finish the pod ship—but finds that staring into the abyss of the spider's mind means that it also stares back...

The Maximals arrive at base, alarmed to find the shields down. Inside, they find Rhinox and [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] cyber-webbed to the ceiling. Optimus Primal sends Rattrap and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] to bring in their unwelcome visitors.

Megatron observes the data flow resuming, just as the altered moon opens fire on the planet with a broad, blinding power ray. Optimus Primal charges the Maximal base's shields as the external temperature begins climbing and deduces that the aliens intend to ignite the [[energon]] deposits. Megatron notes that this will obliterate the entire planet, an incredibly ruthless strategy that he rather admires. He assures his panicked troops that Tarantulas will save them, albeit inadvertently.

[[File:Other Voices 2 Optimus Blackarachnia.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Stasis pod or coffin? At episode's end no one's sure.]]
Blackarachnia finishes the pod ship, only to be discovered and held at gunpoint by Rattrap and Airazor. With Rhinox still out of commission, Optimus Primal is beginning to despair, when Rattrap summons him to the stasis hold. Primal is impressed by the ship and immediately orders Blackarachnia to change the command codes to respond to him. He intends to fly the ship up to the [[Planet Buster]] and detonate the [[transwarp cell]] to destroy it. With little alternative, Blackarachnia complies.

[[File:Other Voices 2 Megatron Optimus.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Worst in-flight movie ever.]]
Soon all is ready, and Optimus Primal has poignant parting words with his worried crew - at which point Blackarachnia comments on the Maximals' sentimentality and is knocked out by Airazor for it - before sealing the ship and launching it. Megatron scans the launch and notes with delight that Primal is flying the vessel. Primal soon reaches the Planet Buster, starts the ignition sequence, and gives the order to blow the hatch seals. But the hatch is sealed and locked! Megatron appears on his comm screen to gloat that he'd come up with exactly the same plan—only in his version of events, the ship's pilot goes "up with the ship". As the timer counts down to zero, the Maximals frantically wait for Optimus Primal to make his escape. Primal pounds on the sealed hatch, to no avail. As the Maximals wonder what is going on, Blackarachnia tells them it's too late... in Tarantulas's voice.

The transwarp cell explodes, and high above the planet, the Planet Buster is annihilated... along with the pod ship and Optimus Primal.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] (1)
*[[Tigatron]] (2)
*[[Optimus Primal/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]] (3)
*[[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] (4)
*[[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] (5)
*[[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] (13)
*[[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] (14)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] (6)
*[[Scorponok (BW)|Scorponok]] (7)
*[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] (8)
*[[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (9)
*[[Tarantulas (BW)|Tarantulas]] (10)
*[[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] (11)
*[[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] (12)
}}

==Quotes==
"Sufferin' circuits. What could it be?"<br />
"The light at the end of the world."
:—'''Cheetor''' and '''Tigatron''', watching the Planet Buster power up

"What is it?"<br/>
"Well, I'd say it was the [[Instruments of Destruction|instrument of our destruction]]. Impressive, yesss..."
:—'''Scorponok''' and '''Megatron''' upon seeing the Planet Buster's true form.

'''Megatron''': Brilliant! They're causing a chain reaction which will rip this planet to atoms and destroy all traces of them—simply to deal with us! Such sheer ruthlessness. Such disregard for sentient life! ...I rather like these aliens.<br />
'''Terrorsaur''': Like them?! They're trying to ''destroy'' us!<br />
'''Waspinator''': Waszzpinator not want to be destroyed! Waszzpinator has ''plans''!<br />
'''Scorponok''': Megatron will save us!<br />
'''Megatron''': I think not. I've reserved ''that'' task for Tarantulas.
:—The Predacons react to the Planet Buster.

'''Blackarachnia''': We—I did it!<br />
'''Airazor''': ''Hooray'' for you.<br />
[''Blackarachnia finds herself held at gunpoint.'']<br />
'''Blackarachnia''': Did you know we have a truce?

"Cozy."<br/>
"Just like a coffin."
:—'''Optimus Primal''' and '''Blackarachnia'''

"Oh, you [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|Optimuses]] ''do'' love to sacrifice yourselves, don't you? Well, fortunately, this time your foolishness will destroy you ''and'' your Maximals. The Beast Wars are ''over'', Optimus. ''You'' '''''lose'''''."
:—'''Megatron''' rubs his victory in.

"'''''MEGATROOOOOON!'''''"
:—'''Optimus Primal''''s last words before he kicks the bucket.

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
* When Blackarachnia grabs Inferno's gun, she clips into Inferno for a split second.
* During Airazor and Rattrap's search for Blackarachnia, Airazor's gun floats in her hand when they jump into a hallway, and then gets "stuck" in her armpit as they walk towards the camera. Meawhile, her hands are posed grasping at nothing.
* As Optimus Primal lies back into the stasis pod, his shoulder pads are much smaller than they usually are. This was done to avoid clipping with the sides of the cramped stasis post model. It is an odd animation choice, however, given that simply folding his shoulder pads down is a normal part of his transformation, in much the same way he actually ''does'' do with his feet to allow the pod's canopy to close.
* When Megatron gloats to Optimus at the end of the episode, his hands seem to be switched, with his right arm ending in a normal hand instead of his [[beast mode]] head. (It's easiest to see when Megatron is laughing triumphantly at the end of his speech.)

===Continuity errors===
* When Blackarachnia and Tarantulas attacked Dinobot in the previous episode, they caused him to fall through the glass of the elevator on the right hand side of the ''Axalon'''s command center (from Dinobot's perspective). In this episode, the smashed elevator glass has been switched to the other elevator on the other side of the room.
* The piece of cyber-webbing Airazor steps on when she exits the elevator was not present during the close up of Rattrap as he complained about the missing Rhinox and Dinobot.
*When Cheetor and Tigatron volunteer to fly the pod, Optimus rejects their offers because he reasoned that a flyer had the best chance of coming back alive. Airazor then volunteers... and Primal gives no reason why she couldn't do it, instead merely asking if Rattrap planned to volunteer next.
* Optimus asks Rattrap for a 30 nano-click timer on the self-destruct charge, but it's a 60 nano-click countdown when he activates it. Perhaps Rattrap felt his estimate wasn't generous enough.

===Continuity notes===
* Tigatron volunteers to pilot the stasis pod ship, citing that he "owes this world." This likely refers to his decision to destroy the [[Vok]]'s self-propelled-completely-peaceful-heavily-armed-[[Brigadoon|floating-island]]-paradise-of-death in "[[The Trigger, Part 2]]".

===Transformers references===
*Megatron's line, "You Optimuses do enjoy sacrificing yourselves", is a reference to the [[Optimus Prime (G1)|original Optimus Prime]] and [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|his numerous deaths]].

===Real-world references===
* Tigatron describes the Planet Buster's death ray as "the light at the end of the world", which might be a reference to the [[w:The Light at the End of the World (A Flock of Seagulls album)|album]] of the same name.

===Trivia===
* At the script stage, this episode had the subtitle "Termination Day".
* When Tarantulas angrily dismisses Blackarachnia while attempting to work on the stasis pod, he is voiced by [[Scott McNeil]] (doing an impression of [[Alec Willows]]'s Tarantulas) for two lines.
* Inferno's got the moves in this episode! During his fight with Blackarachnia he pulls off all sorts of kung fu moves and even does a little Jet Li roundhouse kick. This still surprisingly doesn't keep her from blowing his head off though.
* This episode is the first of two where Inferno refers to Megatron by name rather than as "Royalty" or "my queen."
* A planned but never-produced Generation 1 cameo was planned for "Other Voices" Part 2. The intent was for Megatron to gloat to Primal while the latter was trapped in the stasis pod—by projecting an image of the Autobot leader, Optimus Prime, on Primal's viewscreen as Primal raced for the false moon and met his demise.<ref>[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/bc8e54e9165e0823?hl=en&&q=%22Optimus+Prime%22 Bob Forward interview on alt.toys.transformers]</ref>
*When you see the little parts of Primal flying towards the camera near the end of the episode, you can see Optimus's head fly at the screen very quickly with a distressed look on his face.
* In [[Madman Entertainment]]'s ''Beast Wars Season 1'' DVD set, on a commentary track for this episode with fan consultant [[Ben Yee]] and story editor [[Larry DiTillio]], fellow story editor [[Bob Forward]] popped in to explain the significance of the slang term "[[Slag (slang)|slag]]". He explained that he looked up on refineries as he figured that robots would be made of steel, and one of the waste byproducts of creating steel was an unusable detritus called slag, which he thought would be an appropriate swear word for robots to use.
* Just as the pod enters the Planet Buster, you can actually hear the sound of Optimus' arm-cannon firing, and glass shattering. It appears that he attempted to blast his way out, but was too late to actually escape.
*The overall plot of this episode (and, to a lesser extent, the [[Other Voices, Part 1|previous episode]]), has several similarities to "Web World Wars", the season 2 finale of ''ReBoot'' (perhaps not coincidental, as both shows were produced by Mainframe):
**Both episodes feature the heroes and villains working against a common foe (The Vok in ''Beast Wars'', The Web in ''ReBoot'') who intends to destroy them all with a powerful weapon (The Planet Buster in ''Beast Wars'', a giant Web portal in ''ReBoot'').
**Both episodes involve the characters developing a plan to eliminate said foe's weapon (destroying the Planet Buster in ''Beast Wars'', closing the portal to The Web in ''ReBoot'').
**At the end of both episodes, the main villain betrays the heroes, shooting their leader into the enemy weapon right before its destruction (in ''Beast Wars'': Megatron traps Optimus Primal in the stasis pod-ship as it detonates in the Planet Buster; in ''ReBoot'': Megabyte traps Bob in a missile, firing it into the Web portal before using the Hardware to seal it).

===Foreign localization===
'''French'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Les Voix d'Autre Monde - 2<sup>e</sup> partie'''" ("The Voices from Another World - Part 2")

:*''Title:'' '''Les Voix 2''' (Canada, "The Voices 2")

'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''L'arrivo - Parte 2'''" ("The Arrival - Part Two")

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Heiwa o Mamoru Tame ni...'''" (平和を守るために・・・, "To Protect the Peace...")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[March 25|25 March]] [[1998]]
:**For some inexplicable reason, beginning in this episode, Megatron now addresses [[Predacon computer|Naviko-chan]] by screeching her name in a very high-pitched voice. ''Every single time''.
:**While taunting Primal in the capsule, Megatron does not reference the previous sacrifices of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. This is actually the second time the Japanese dub deliberately eliminated a reference to Generation 1. Waspinator's brief identity crisis as [[Shrapnel (G1)|Shrapnel]] was removed from the dialogue in "[[Dark Designs]]".
:**As is expected, the ominous "The End?" text was replaced with the Japanese "To be continued?" (つづく?, ''Tsudzuku?'').

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Outras Vozes Parte 2'''" ("Other Voices Part 2")

'''Spanish'''
:*''Title:'' '''Otras Voces Segunda Parte''' ("Other Voices Second Part")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1998 — ''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers'' — To Protect the Peace... ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2001 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Beginning: Vol. 4 ([[Universal]])
;[[Wikipedia:LaserDisc|LaserDisc]]
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1998 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Predacon Edition ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — English and Japanese audio.
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — DVD Box (Pioneer LDC) — English and Japanese audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2003 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete First Season ([[Rhino Entertainment|Rhinomation]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 1 ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2011 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — The Complete Series (Shout! Factory)<br>
[[File:Flag of Canada.png|20px|Canada]] 2005 — ''Beast Wars'' — Classic Episodes: Volume 4 — The Predacons Advance! ([[Alliance Atlantis]]) — English and French audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of Canada.png|20px|Canada]] 2005 — ''Beast Wars'' — The Complete First Season (Alliance Atlantis) — English and French audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2006 — ''Beast Wars: Transformers'' — Season 1 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers: Beast Wars'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Beast Wars episodes]]

Swindle (FOC)

2015-07-15T16:32:01Z

John3637881: /* Transformers: Fall of Cybertron (360/PS3/PC) */

{{faction|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Swindle}}
:''Swindle is a [[Decepticon]] from the [[Transformers: Fall of Cybertron|Fall of Cybertron]] portion of the [[Aligned continuity family]].''

[[File:FOC Swindle.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|Who's got two thumbs and loads of personality in his box art?]]

Unlike his fellow Decepticons, '''Swindle''' doesn't really care about the fate of the universe. No, the war for [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] is actually a pretty good business opportunity! While he's acting as the leg of [[Bruticus (WFC)|Bruticus]], Swindle thinks only of what he'll get in trade for [[Autobot]] bodies he's stomping once the current battle ends.

{{bigquote|''The money machine is on the move!|Swindle, [[Transformers: Fall of Cybertron|''Fall of Cybertron'']]}}

{{TOCclear}}

==Fiction==
===''Transformers: The Ultimate Pop-Up Universe''===
Swindle and the rest of the Combaticons had the ability to merge into the mighty Bruticus! It is not known whether they followed Megatron to Earth in his quest for the Allspark or if they remained behind on Cybertron, as they had yet to have been seen adopting an Earth vehicle mode. {{storylink|Transformers: The Ultimate Pop-Up Universe|The Ultimate Pop-Up Universe}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: Fall of Cybertron'' (360/PS3/PC)===
:''Voice actors:'' [[Steve Blum]] (English)
[[File:FOC-Swindlecap.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1|Eh, I didn't want to be in the [[Transformers Hall of Fame|Hall of Fame]] anyway...]]
[[Starscream (WFC)|Starscream]] tasked the [[Combaticon (WFC)|Combaticon]]s with intercepting an [[Autobot]] transport. [[Onslaught (WFC)|Onslaught]] tasked Swindle with patrolling the area to take out any scouts who might give away their operation. Though they successfully destroyed the bridge, the diverted transport still had plenty of anti-air defenses to keep Starscream's aerial forces at bay, so Swindle was sent in. Driving underneath, he destroyed the transport's wheels before taking on a pair of titans. The transport converted to a flight mode, so Swindle grappled on board and started taking out the transport's anti-aircraft cannons by blowing up their ammo. Working his way around to the other side of the ship, he discovered that the Autobots had destroyed the controls for the shields so he couldn't blow them up, so instead he had to join the other Combaticons on their drop ship so they could take it out. The team combined into Bruticus and stormed through the rest of the Autobot defenses, though in the process they damaged the transport so badly that it crashed. The enraged Starscream ordered the Combaticons arrested.

Swindle and the Combaticons were later freed once [[Megatron (WFC)|Megatron]] was resurrected and defeated Starscream. They were aboard the ''[[Trypticon (WFC)|Nemesis]]'' as it pursued the ''[[Ark (WFC)|Ark]]'' and Swindle took part in the assault on the Autobot ship's engines as part of Bruticus. The giant took out many Autobots before he was taken down by the combined efforts of [[Jazz (WFC)|Jazz]] and the [[Aerialbot (WFC)|Aerialbot]]s before floating free of the Ark. {{storylink|Transformers: Fall of Cybertron|Fall of Cybertron}}

{{note|Swindle also appears as a playable character in the Escalaton map, 'Downfall'. He appears alongside [[Quake (FOC)|Quake]] and fellow Combaticons [[Onslaught (WFC)|Onslaught]] and [[Brawl (WFC)|Brawl]]. Swindle serves as the team's [[Ammo Supplier]].}}

===''Transformers: Rise of the Dark Spark''===
{{charstubgame}}
{{Storylink|Transformers: Rise of the Dark Spark (console)}}

===''Transformers: Rise of the Dark Spark (3DS)''===
{{charstubgame}}
{{storylink|Transformers: Rise of the Dark Spark (3DS)}}

===''Transformers Universe''===
[[File:Tu-character-art swindle.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb]]
Swindle was in charge of the production of Megatron's armada as well as supplying the Decepticons with weapons and ammunition.
{{storylink|Transformers Universe}}
{{--}}

==Toys==
===Generations===
[[File:Generationstoy-Swindle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|My [[:File:Alternators Swindle toy.jpg|Alternators Swindle head]] makes [[Derrick J. Wyatt|Derrick Wyatt]] SO ANGRY!]]
*'''Decepticon Bruticus''' (multi-pack, 2012)
**''Accessories'': Blaster

: The first version of Swindle released was made available as part of a [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] [[exclusive]] "[[Bruticus (WFC)#Generations|Decepticon Bruticus]]" [[giftset|gift set]] that contains all five Combaticons in [[show-accuracy|game-accurate colors]]. Like most Hasbro Toy Shop exclusive toys, it was initially sold at the store's booth at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] and made available at the store's website a few days later.

: Swindle's [[alternate mode]] is an SUV-like [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] Assault Transport vehicle with large wheels, with the main color being a muted ocher. His "auto-neutron turret" weapon accessory can be attached to the roof using the same [[5mm post]] post also used as a handle for holding the weapon in robot mode.

: In addition to his robot and vehicle modes, Swindle can also combine with his fellow Combaticons into Bruticus and serve as any of the gestalt robot's four limbs, though his official configuration shown in the [[instructions]] is the right leg. (He features hands attached to his legs via hinges which are not addressed by the instructions, but ''are'' required for his [[retool]] [[Roadbuster (Prime)#Toys|Roadbuster]], who serves as [[Ruination (FOC)|Ruination]]'s right arm.) His "auto-neutron turret" weapon can be combined with the other Combaticons' weapons to form Bruticus's Sonic Cannon.

: Swindle suffers from a [[design flaw]]: The small tabs used to attach the robot mode's chest section to the legs in vehicle or gestalt limb mode (using different slots for the tabs) are prone to showing stress marks, and eventually breaking.<ref name="tabs">[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88154 "Bruticus, PSA: Be the F Careful"] thread at The Allspark.</ref>

: A [[redeco]] of Swindle in more "flashy" colors was available as an individually-released mass retail toy (see below), whereas a redeco in ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'' colors (as the ''[[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]'' [[Swindle (G1)#Amazon|Swindle]] character) was released as part of a shared Amazon.com/[[BigBadToyStore]] exclusive [[Bruticus (G1)#WFC|Decepticon Bruticus]] gift set. The sculpt was also retooled into Roadbuster, as mentioned above.
{{-}}

{{anchor|Retail}}
[[File:Generationstoy-RetailSwindle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Remember folks, always stay gold. With a bang.]]
*'''Swindle''' (Deluxe, 2012)
**''Series/number'': '''01/#005'''
**'''PART 4 OF 5!'''
**''Japanese release date:'' '''[[January 26|1-26]]-[[2013]]'''
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TG06'''
**''Accessories'': Blaster

: A [[redeco]] of Swindle from the Decepticon Bruticus gift set was available individually alongside his fellow Combaticons as part of the second [[wave]] of the ''[[Transformers: Fall of Cybertron|Fall of Cybertron]]''-themed 2012-onwards Deluxe Class ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' assortment. These versions of the Combaticons replace the [[show-accuracy|game-accurate]], ''[[Generation 1 (franchise)|Generation 1]]''-inspired decos with more "flashy" colors apparently homaging the color scheme of [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]]. Swindle replaces the ocher from his gift set release with a bright shade of yellow.

: Aside from the colors, mass retail Swindle is identical to the version from the Decepticon Bruticus gift set.
:The Takara release of Swindle has the yellow plastic from Hasbro's release covered in a gold paint. He features more game-accurate colors, including a painted purple visor, more detailed shoulderpads, and silver feet.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/Swindle/swindle.htm More information on retail Swindle at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Notes==
===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Swindle''' (スィンドル ''Swindoru'')
*''Russian:'' '''Fingal''' (Фингал, "Black Eye")

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Combaticons]]
[[Category:Fall of Cybertron Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:War for Cybertron Decepticons]]
[[Category:Transformers Universe game Decepticons]]

Ghosts and Impostors

2015-06-18T02:57:46Z

John3637881: /* Trivia */ WE MUST HAVE A RACE.

{{episode|
|otherseries=''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 cartoon)|Transformers: Robots in Disguise]]'' (2015) ep 24
|image=
|caption=
|prev=The Buzz on Windblade
|next=Battlegrounds, Part 1
|title="Ghosts and Impostors"
|airdate=???, [[2015]]
|production company=[[Hasbro Studios]]
|writer=[[John Loy]]
|animation studio=[[Polygon Pictures]]
|director=[[Scooter Tidwell]]
}}
'''An educational trip turns into a Decepticon hunt as Bumblebee and the Autobots stumble upon a chameleon-like fugitive in a western ghost town.'''

==Synopsis==
{{comingsoon}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Grimlock (WFC)|Grimlock]] (3)
*[[Sideswipe (WFC)|Sideswipe]] (4)
*[[Strongarm (RID)|Strongarm]] (5)
*[[Fixit (RID)|Fixit]] (6)
*[[Drift (RID)|Drift]] (7)
*[[Bumblebee (WFC)|Bumblebee]] (8)
*[[Slipstream (RID)|Slipstream]] (9)
*[[Jetstorm (RID)|Jetstorm]] (10)

|c2=
*[[Pseudo]] (11)

|c3=
*[[Russell Clay]] (1)
*[[Denny Clay]] (2)
*Tour party (12)

}}

==Quotes==
'''Sideswipe''': Are we having fun yet?<br>
'''Bumblebee''': Ha! C'mon, Earth is unpredictable! That's part of its charm!<br>
'''Drift''': I would not describe molten lava as 'charming'.
:—Different opinions on fun and charm are exchanged

"It's quiet. Too quiet"<br>
"A location cannot be too quiet. It is either quiet or it is not."
:—'''Sideswipe''' is wary and '''Drift''' throws logic at a bot who doesn't care

'''Bumblebee''': Can you [[Jetstorm (RID)|get]] [[Slipstream (RID)|them]] there?<br>
'''Grimlock''': Does a cat have whiskers that shoot lightnin'?
:—No they don't, but...

==Notes==
===Animation and technical errors===
===Continuity notes===
* Fixit references [[Shifter]]s, a Cybertronian subspecies that previously appeared in the ''Prime'' cartoon.
===Prisoner manifest===
* ''In stasis'': Hammerstrike, Bisk, Chop Shop, Terrashock, Filch, Minitron, Springload, Ped, Quillfire, "that one with all the eyes", Malodor and the Skunkticons, Nightstrike, Vertebreak, Octopunch, Groundpounder, Headlock, Scowl, Razorpaw, Zizza, Pseudo
* ''Known at large'': Steeljaw, Thunderhoof, Underbite, Clampdown, Kickback
* ''Released'': Grimlock
* ''Countless others all missing, presumed at large''

===Transformers references===
===Real-world references===
===Trivia===
*Sadly, the Autobots do not [[A Prime Problem|have a race]] to determine who the real Drift and Grimlock are when Psuedo is disguised as them.

===Foreign localization===

==Home video releases==
{{epstub}}

[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2015) episodes]]

Decepticon

2015-04-27T21:16:10Z

John3637881: /* Prime */

{{factions|decepticon|decepticong2|ttdecepticon|sgDecepticon}}
{{disambig2|the Transformers faction|the ''Robots in Disguise'' episode|The Decepticons}}
[[File:Symbol decept reg.png|upright=1.4|thumb|Get this tattooed on you and all you'll need is a black trenchcoat and a long ponytail. Then people will love you.]]

{{quote|'''''Decepticon''' (di-sep-ti-con) A member of a subversive sect or society. From the noun — 'deception'; one who deceives.|the [[New Cybertronic Dictograph]]}}

The '''Decepticons''' are one of the primary factions in the ''[[Transformer]]s'' mythos. They are typically concerned with such things as conquering [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], defeating the [[Autobot]]s, amassing large quantities of [[energon]], developing powerful weaponry, and beating people up. Not necessarily in that order.

Unlike the Autobots, whose leader is a [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] bearing a [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], the Decepticons are led by the [[Decepticon leader|most powerful]] of their ranks. This tends to cause some conflict, given how generally ''every'' Decepticon thinks that they're the most powerful. Also, the Decepticons are not exactly the most compassionate beings in the universe, but not all fight for greed. More than a few have a [[Scourge (Cybertron)|sense of honor]], while others believe that Cybertron would be better protected by [[Decepticon Empire|aggressive expansion]]. Ultimately, the Decepticons desire to protect their homeworld, even if it is at the expense of others. [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Usually]].

{{quote|The Decepticons are a malevolent race of robot warriors, brutal and merciless. The Decepticons are led by a single undeviating goal: total domination of the universe.|[[Narrator]]|[[Secret Files of Teletraan II]]}}

==Generation 1==
===Marvel Comics continuity===
====Marvel ''The Transformers'' comics====
[[File:Thelaststand-prepare.jpg|left|upright=1.95|thumb|MUSTER THE GOOMBAS! HAND OUT THE DE-EVOLUTION GUNS! PREPARE FOR DESTINY!]]
The Decepticons emerged from the gladiatorial [[Games|State Games]], which caused [[Megatron (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Megatron]]'s rise to public prominence - in the aftermath of the destructive Vos-Tarn War, Megatron was able to use his fame and charisma to unite both the survivors and the planet's malcontents into a new army. His plan was to turn Cybertron into a mobile cosmic dreadnought and conquer the galaxy. {{storylink|State Games}} The Decepticons developed new technology to allow them to transform into attack vehicles and weaponry, launching a devastating attack that killed billions and shook the planet from its orbit before [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] turned the tide.

Megatron, Shockwave and others were lost on Earth for four million years; as Optimus was too, the Autobots swiftly lost ground to Decepticon leaders [[Trannis]] and [[Straxus (G1)|Straxus]]. Cybertron was devastated and conquered, causing the cream of the Decepticons to leave the burnt-out planet to form a [[Cybertronian (faction)|Cybertronian Empire]] out in the stars, while Straxus threw all those he considered weak into the [[Smelting pool]]. The Empire would go on to slaughter and Cyberform planet after planet, their actions unknown on Cybertron.

Eventually the Earth-bound Decepticons would awaken in 1984, sparking off a new front in the war. After the presumed suicide of Megatron, an escalation in fighting would see Decepticon leadership fragment and change hands rapidly, with frequent clashes, plots and counter-plots between the primary leadership, namely [[Starscream (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Starscream]], [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]], and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]], until most of them were killed in the [[Underbase]] conflict, leaving Scorponok the only surviving commander. A brief truce with the Autobots was held when [[Unicron]] attacked in 1991, but Scorponok was killed in the following conflict. Immediately after this, [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] came to power. Charismatic and driven, Bludgeon turned the beaten Decepticons into a new army; after a defeat on [[Klo]], they regrouped and reorganised. ([[Another Time & Place|In one reality, they were immediately massacred afterward.]])

{{--}}

====Earthforce====
{{Earthforcefiction}}
In the side-continuity of [[Earthforce]], while Unicron continued on to Cybertron, Megatron and Shockwave continued a Decepticon civil war on Earth with a small handful of troops - wasting most of their time trying to take each other out. Eventually Soundwave and Starscream overthrew them, uniting both factions into a stronger Decepticon force. The two former leaders attempted to regain their position but never appeared to succeed.

====Generation 2====
Bludgeon invaded Earth with the intention of capturing the Matrix and making a new generation of Decepticons, but Megatron returned, killed Bludgeon in one-on-one combat, and stole this plan. However, the threat of the Cybertronian Empire forced an alliance between the Autobots and Decepticons again.

====''Classics''====
{{noteclassics}}
{{groupstub}}

====Regeneration One====
{{NoteRG1}}
{{groupstub}}

===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
[[File:Ffod4 early soldiers.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4]]

The Decepticons began life as a line of military hardware robots created by the [[Quintesson]]s, alongside the consumer goods robots that would become the Autobots. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}} It is unknown exactly what role the military hardware robots played in the eventual rebellion of the robots against their creators; the only ones seen to participate in the conflict were the Autobots' ancestors, led by [[Alpha Trion (G1)|A-3]], but given their fighting ability, the proto-Decepticons seem like they would have made logical soldiers in the fight. {{storylink|Forever Is a Long Time Coming (episode)|Forever Is a Long Time Coming}}

Following the defeat of the Quintessons and their exile from Cybertron, a brief period of peace descended, before the base differences between the two breeds of robot led to the outbreak of conflict. Lusting for power, the Decepticons, as they now called themselves, rallied under [[Early Decepticon leader|a leader]] and began a war with the peaceful Autobots, who proved unable to match their inborn military skills. After the fall of several successive Autobot leaders, the heroic robots turned to stealth, and invented the art of [[transformation]]; with this edge, [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]] defeated the Decepticons' leader, ending the war and ushering in the prosperous [[Golden Age]] of Cybertron. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}}
[[File:Masterplan2 earth germ.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.4|"Excuse me, do you have seating for 3?"]]
Over time, the defeated Decepticons married transformation technology with [[robot mode]] flight powers, leading to the creation of [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]] around nine million years ago. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}} Gathering like-minded warriors like the loyal [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]], the emotionless [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] and the young upstart [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]], and brain-washing others into his service with the [[Robo-Smasher]], {{storylink|The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme}} Megatron slew Sentinel Prime and reignited the war. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}} Against the Autobots under the command of new leader [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]], the protracted warfare ran for five million years, draining Cybertron dry of energy and forcing the Transformers to seek new power sources on other planets. When Optimus Prime's best and brightest departed on this quest aboard [[Ark (G1)|a spacecraft]], Megatron's elite followed them, and the battle that erupted led to a crash-landing on prehistoric Earth that entombed all the combatants in stasis for four million years. {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 1}}

In 1984, a volcanic explosion led to the reactivation of the Transformers; the Decepticons were first to recover, and immediately set about plundering Earth's natural resources to build a [[Victory (G1)|space cruiser]] that would take them back to Cybertron. Sabotaged in mid-flight, the ship crashed into one of Earth's oceans, {{storylink|More than Meets the Eye, Part 3}} but the Decepticons survived and rebuilt the crippled craft to serve as their new [[Decepticon Headquarters (G1 Earth)|headquarters]] for the continuing conflict on the planet. A [[space bridge]] was established between Earth and Cybertron, and any resources the villains could purloin would be sent back to the dying planet to secure their stranglehold over it. {{storylink|Transport to Oblivion}}
[[File:FFOD5 Decepticons attack.JPG|thumb|upright=1.4]]
At some point over the next twenty years, the Decepticons focused their attentions away from Earth and managed to take complete control of Cybertron, forcing the Autobots to relocate to twin moonbases on Cybertron's two satellites, and to [[Autobot City (G1)|Autobot City]] on Earth. In 2005, learning that the Autobots planned a major strike to retake Cybertron, the Decepticons launched an [[Battle of Autobot City|attack]] on Autobot City, with disastrous consequences for the Autobots. The battle saw one of the Decepticons' long held dreams achieved in the death of Optimus Prime, but Megatron was damaged, and left to rot in deep space, along with several of his wounded followers. Found by the monster planet [[Unicron]], Megatron was reformatted him into [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]], and the others into [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]], [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] and the [[Sweep]]s, in return for their servitude. Soon after, while Unicron was attacking the Decepticon-controlled Cybertron, Galvatron duelled with the new Autobot leader [[Hot Rod (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Rodimus Prime]], who triumphed and hurled him into the void of space. Their world and their forces devastated and their leader gone, the Decepticons were easily routed by the Autobots, who forced them into exile on the burned-out world of [[Chaar]] while they retook and restored Cybertron. {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}}

{{quote|Once the Decepticons held the quadrant through terror, now we scrap like [[Slaarg]]s over a few [[energon cube]]s.|[[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]]|[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 1]]}}
[[File:Rebirth 2 Decepticon offerings.JPG|left|thumb|upright=1.4]]
On Chaar, the Decepticons faced constant energy shortages and engaged in constant in-fighting over what little they did have. Determined to restore order, Cyclonus hatched a plan to locate the lost Galvatron, in hopes that he could lead the Decepticons to glory once more. Although they were successful, Galvatron proved to have been driven insane by his experiences, and while his return did herald the recommencement of hostilities with the Autobots, the Decepticons never quite recovered their old standing, continuing to operate on Chaar throughout 2006 and regularly entering into ill-fated alliances with the Quintessons. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness}}

Eventually, the Decepticons went into hiding following the resurrection of Optimus Prime. When they returned, it was in force, launching an attack on Autobot City in order to steal the key to the [[Plasma Energy Chamber]] on Cybertron, intending to use the chamber to overload the sun and destroy Earth and Cybertron together. The battle for the key carried several of their number to the planet [[Nebulos]], where they became [[binary bonding|binary bonded]] to the planet's evil rulers, the [[Hive (G1)|Hive]], as [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]] and [[Targetmaster]]s. They returned with the key to Cybertron, but Autobot intervention caused the energy of the chamber to backfire on them, hurling their battlestation [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]], with the amassed forces of the Decepticons aboard, off into the far reaches of the universe. {{storylink|The Rebirth}}

{{--}}

====Japanese cartoon continuity====

{{note|In Japanese cartoon continuity, the events of "The Rebirth" do not occur, and Headmasters and Targetmasters have a different origin.}}
[[File:FourWarriors Decepticon Headmasters flaming balls.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|There were more burning rocks in the Japanese continuity.]]
Following the return of Optimus Prime, the Decepticons consolidated their power base by heavily fortifying Chaar and turning it into an actual, functional base of operations. {{storylink|Four Warriors Come out of the Sky}} Their ranks were swelled with the addition of the Decepticon Headmasters—Cybertronians who had fled their homeworld millions of years before and taken up residence on the planet [[Master (planet)|Master]], but who had been exiled by the local leader [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress]] for an attempted coup. {{storylink|The Mystery of Planet Master}} Headmaster commander [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] coveted leadership of the Decepticons for himself, and finally obtained it when the Autobot Headmasters entombed Galvatron in an iceberg. {{storylink|The Emperor of Destruction Vanishes on an Iceberg}} Under Scorponok's leadership, the Decepticons nearly succeeded in destroying the Earth with [[crysmagnetal]] and [[plasma energy]], but upon the destruction of Scorponok's [[Transtector]], the ultimately elected to finally withdraw from Earth once and for all. {{storylink|The Final Showdown on Earth (Part 2)}}
[[File:BirthHeadmasterJrs Decepticon Jrs in transtators.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1]]
The Decepticons returned to Chaar, and over the next few years, fought the Autobots on [[Athenia]] in a series of space-based exchanges that became known as the [[Master Wars]]. Circumstances changed when the mysterious alien [[Devil Z]] was able to brainwash Scorponok, placing him and by extension, the entire Decepticon army, under his command. {{storylink|Master File No, 1}} While Scorponok, now known as "BlackZarak", continued to lead the Decepticons' space based forces, a small group of [[Pretender]]s operating under Devil Z's direct command on Earth furthered the evil alien's attempts to fuse human and Transformer life to create the ultimate lifeform by bringing about the rise of the [[Headmaster Junior]]s and the [[Godmaster]]s. {{storylink|Birth! Headmaster Jrs}} {{storylink|Super Warriors - The Godmaster Brothers}} A group of Autobot Pretenders worked to counter his schemes by doing the same, and the repeated failure of his human Transformers to triumph over their Autobot counterparts led Devil Z to conclude that he had been incorrect, and that humanity was of no use to him. He transformed the Headmaster Jr and Godmasters into full robotic lifeforms, but soon after, he and BlackZarak were destroyed by the Autobot leader [[Ginrai]], and the Decepticons fled the Earth once more. {{storylink|A Battle... and Then...}}
[[File:Deathsaurus throne.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
Leadership was briefly taken up by [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Overlord]], but by the year 2025, the Decepticon army was reorganized under the new Emperor of Destruction, [[Deathsaurus (Victory)|Deathsaurus]], and began attacking numerous different planets all across the galaxy in pursuit of a world they could take for their own. {{storylink|The Brave Hero of the Universe - Star Saber}} Deathsaurus led the [[Breastforce]] and [[Dinoforce]] in attack on Earth, seizing enough energy to reactive his [[Planet-Destroying Fortress]], but he was stopped by the new Autobot [[Supreme Commander]], [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]]. {{storylink|Showdown! The Fortress vs the Victory Unification}}
[[File:TVMJuly1990Mashougun.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.1]]
Deathsaurus' defeat marked a decline in Decepticon activity, but soon a more supernatural force seized command: [[Violen Jiger]], a being made up of the spirits of many defeated Decepticons, rallied together [[Nine Great Demon Generals]] from throughout Decepticon history to capture for him the Autobots' new [[Energon Z]], and the life-giving [[Zodiac]], which he would combine to create a "[[Decepticon Zone]]" from which he could conquer the universe. His plans were stopped by new Autobot leader [[Dai Atlas (Zone)|Dai Atlas]], {{storylink|Transformers: Zone (franchise)|Zone}} and the Zodiac was instead used to bring Optimus Prime back to life. This stood in the way of the plans of the mysterious alien [[Dark Nova]], so he used his powers to resurrect Galvatron from his Arctic tomb and transform him into Super Megatron. The Decepticon army was virtually non-existent under Dark Nova; Super Megatron had no actual Decepticon troops at his command, merely Dark Nova's [[Novaroid]] and [[Galaman]] warriors, though they did bear the Decepticon insignia. Dark Nova later upgraded Super Megatron into Ultra Megatron, then merged with him to become "Star Giant", but was destroyed by the resurrected Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Transformers: Return of Convoy (franchise)|Return of Convoy}}

By the year 2035, Decepticon leadership had been taken up by the enigmatic [[Scrash (OC)|Scrash]], and fighting was primarily occurring in outer space once again. The development of [[Power Core Combination]] by the Autobots and their human allies on Earth drew Scrash's attention back to the planet, and he sent [[Battle Gaia (OC)|Battle Gaia]] and the [[Jet Corps]] to create distractions while a team of Decepticons reformatted to be able to take control of the Autobots' new inventions were sent to steal the combiner tech. {{storylink|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Operation Combination (franchise)|Operation Combination}} Some reports suggest that when his plans were foiled, Scrash himself made another attack on the planet along with his warriors [[Flashwing]], [[Deathplay]], [[Darkfly]] and [[Sharpedge]] which also met with failure. {{storylink|Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)#After_2025|2007 timeline}} [[File:G2 Humans killed Megatron's friend.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|There were also more gigantic plastic army men in the Japanese continuity.]] Following this, Megatron retook command of the Decepticons, but with his damaged sanity circuits repaired, he abandoned his evil ways and united the Decepticons with the Autobots as the [[Cybertron Alliance]]. This was not to last, unfortunately, when a misunderstanding led a human military unit to kill [[Megatron's dead friend|a Decepticon]], prompting Megatron to begin the war all over again. {{storylink|Transformers: G-2 (story page)|Autobots vs. Decepticons: Combat Secrets}}

Defeated by Optimus Prime in a duel in the [[Mirtonian constellation]], the badly wounded Megatron disappeared with the Decepticons into the far reaches of the universe, and the war appeared to be over once more. {{storylink|Transformers: G-2 (story page)|The Autobots Triumph in the Battle of Good Vs. Evil!}} Alas, it was not to be so, as a [[Galvatron II|parallel version of Galvatron from an alternate dimension]] appeared and took control of the Decepticon army, renewing hostilities {{storylink|Hybrid Style Convoy Black Version}} and bolstering their forces with the addition of biomechanically-engineered monsters. {{storylink|MP-1B Cybertron Commander / Convoy Black Ver.}}

===Dreamwave ''Generation One'' continuity===
[[File:DeceptLitho.jpg|left|upright=0.85|thumb|"My Liege, when did you get that sw—" "CAN'T HEAR YOU, FANWANKING"]]
The Decepticons arose out of the [[Gladiatorial combat|underground fights]] that Megatron once partook in. After discovering certain secrets about Cybertron's origin, including massive [[planetary engine]]s, Megatron began using the games to recruit combatants. For nearly half a million years, they grew in numbers and trained, until they rebelled against the [[Council of Ancients]] and took [[Kaon]] by force.

While the war raged on, the Constructicons repaired the engines and introduced a mecha-forming process, but what they really needed was a power source. Megatron became convinced that he could find one powerful enough within the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], which was in the possession of [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Sentinel Prime]]. However, when Megatron finally killed the Prime, he discovered that it was not within him. Soon after, Optronix became Optimus Prime, and Megatron initiated a plan: an assassination team under Communications Officer [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] would elimate the Prime and claim the Matrix, while Military Operations Commander [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] would lay siege to Iacon, preventing the Autobots from coming to Prime's rescue.

However, Megatron made two mistakes: he informed Air Commander [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] of his intentions, and he underestimated Optimus Prime. The Prime managed to erase some of Megatron's memories of what he discovered, while Starscream activated the mechaforming process using energy from the planetary engines. The engines were destroyed before the process was complete, ruining both. {{storylink|Transformers: The War Within|The War Within}}

After Megatron disappeared with Optimus Prime in a space bridge test, Shockwave became Decepticon leader, though Starscream and High Auditor [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] broke off with their own splinter factions shortly afterwards. The Decepticons allied with [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]]'s Autobots and [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] (an Autobot splinter group), to stop the machinations of [[The Fallen]]. {{storylink|Transformers: War Within: The Dark Ages|War Within: The Dark Ages}} Several thousand years later, Shockwave was prepared to sign a peace treaty with [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], who had become Autobot leader, the LSC, and Ratbat's [[Ultracon]]. However, Megatron returned with the [[Air Warrior|Aerospace Extermination Squadron]], an army of [[Quintesson]] created [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] drones, whose abilities allowed the Decepticons to fully conquer Cybertron and enslave the Autobots. The Decepticons' control over Cybertron was ended when Optimus Prime returned to Cybertron and the Air Warriors were defeated. {{storylink|Transformers: War Within: The Age of Wrath|War Within: The Age of Wrath}}

When Megatron disappeared along with the ''Nemesis'' crew, Shockwave again emerged as Decepticon leader, this time as head of a triumvirate including Ratbat and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]]. With [[energon]] becoming scarce, Shockwave agreed to work with Ultra Magnus and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] in the creation of the [[Micromaster]]s, Transformers who were downsized for better fuel efficiency. Shockwave suffered a rebellion when [[Skystalker (G1)|Skystalker]] overthrew him, using Shockwave's severed head as a tool. {{storylink|Transformers: Micromasters}} However, all Transformers on Cybertron entered [[stasis lock]] when the [[Great Shutdown]] occurred.

Around 1,000 B.C.E., Shockwave was reactivated by Scourge, and then defeated the Unicronian Transformer. Studying Scourge and discovering some of the secrets Megatron had learned, Shockwave made peace with the Autobots, installing himself as Head of State with an [[Autobot High Council]] as a legislature, while Ultra Magnus became his senior security officer. However, the High Councillors were unsuited for peace time government, and gradually gave Shockwave more and more power... which is exactly what he had planned.

On Earth, the ''Nemesis'' crew was reawakened in 1984. Cut off from Cybertron, the Decepticons concluded that they had no other choice but to conquer the planet. Megatron soon learned that others had come looking for them, including [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] and the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dynobots]]. The Decepticons captured Jetfire and the Dinobots except Grimlock, and used the hostage situation to force Grimlock to serve the Decepticons. Additionally, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] located Earth and served under Megatron. In 1998, the Autobots allied with humanity to defeat the Decepticons. They were to be returned to Cybertron in the ''[[Ark II]]'', but Shockwave, through a human intermediary, sabotaged the ''Ark II'', causing the ship to crash and send the Transformers aboard into stasis lock.

Renegade members of the [[United States military]] managed to capture the Decepticons and a number of Autobots, intending to use them as instruments of war, but [[Lazarus (G1)|Adam Rook]] later stole them and set himself up as an arms dealer. Unfortunately, Megatron overwhelmed the programming that kept him a prisoner, and freed the other Decepticons. Megatron then intended to unleash a technovirus on Earth, but the Autobots defeated him. {{storylink|Prime Directive}}

A year later, Shockwave arrived to tie up loose ends, quickly capturing Megatron and the ''Nemesis'' crew. Starscream ejected Megatron out of the ship carrying them to Cybertron, leaving him to die in space. The ''Nemesis'' crew were granted amnesty, but Starscream quickly recruited them into going back to Earth to conquer the planet, taking the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]] with them. Shockwave was finally overthrown when Optimus Prime united the Autobot resistance groups, but he escaped with a small number of troops. {{storylink|War and Peace}}

Meanwhile, Megatron was rescued by [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]], who repaired his memory loss. Using some recovered Air Warriors, Megatron located the [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]], who were used to take control of Shockwave's small army. On Earth, Starscream's failures during [[Sunstorm (G1)|Sunstorm]]'s rampage were reason enough to convince the ''Nemesis'' crew to mutiny against Starscream in Megatron's favor. With two combiner teams, an army of Seekers, Soundwave's cassettes, and knowledge of Earth's connection to Cybertron, Megatron prepared to lead the Decepticons on the conquests of Earth and Cybertron {{storylink|Transformers: Generation 1 (Dreamwave) |G1 ongoing}}...

{{note|...At which point Dreamwave went bankrupt. Damn.}}

===IDW Generation 1 continuity===
{{ongoing}}
During the reign of [[Nominus Prime]], Cybertronian civilization was stratified by a [[Functionism|Functionist]] society that equated one's worth as an individual with the usefulness and uniqueness of one's altmode. Among the impoverished lower classes was a young, idealist miner named [[Megatron (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity|Megatron]] who sought to peacefully end Functionism as an institution. His [[After the Ark: Nominus Prime and the Illusion of Progress|treatise]] gathered momentum among Cybertron's working class,{{storylink|Chaos Theory Part 1}} but the Decepticon movement didn't come about until later, when an embittered and disillusioned Megatron began circulating more radical and violent samizdat writings. Indeed, the name Decepticon was taken from one of Megatron's favorite rallying cries: "You are being deceived." They soon began scaring people in high society. {{storylink|Shadowplay, Part 1: Post Hoc}}

They really came into their own when Megatron led an uprising in Kaon, taking the city and killing a Prime. {{storylink|The Transformers: Megatron Origin|Megatron Origin}} The Decepticons soon began spreading across the planet, recruiting new people and carrying out terrorist strikes in advance of their main assaults. {{storylink|Spotlight: Blurr}} Eventually they overthrew the Senate and yet another Prime, but by then it was clear they were going to install a brutal dictatorship of their own. {{storylink|Overthrown}} The Autobots of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity|Optimus Prime]] rose up against them and war began. {{storylink|Rise}}

The war they started proved ''too'' destructive for Cybertron to handle, and the Decepticons had to abandon it after the disastrous [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]] incident. {{storylink|The Transformers: Stormbringer |Stormbringer}}

The Decepticons are spread across known space, following a strict [[Infiltration protocol]] to conquer worlds. Disguising themselves, the infiltration unit gathers intelligence and seeds [[Facsimile construct|facsimiles]] in key strategic places; Phase Two is to use their facsimiles to inflame global tensions and watch the locals to devastate themselves. By Phase Five, their base is in [[Infiltration protocol|Siege Mode]] and Phase 6 has open war on a burnt-out world. {{storylink|The Transformers: Infiltration|Infiltration}} {{storylink|The Transformers: Escalation|Escalation}} In extreme circumstances, when they ''really'' want a world destroyed, they'll send in a [[Phase Sixer]] like [[Sixshot (G1)|Sixshot]].

The Decepticon army is highly specialised: there's infiltration units for, er, infiltration; a [[Decepticon Secret Service]] handling spying and tech acquisitions {{storylink|Spotlight: Hot Rod}}; penal colonies like [[Styx]]; and Tactical Assault Units like the [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]] who carry out direct action.

This all got thrown out of the window in the early 21st Century, however, when it appeared the Decepticons had won. Whoops, they hadn't. Earth was lost, Megatron was defeated, and Starscream took control through a charade of wielding the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]]. {{storylink|The Transformers: All Hail Megatron|All Hail Megatron}} Some Decepticons were left behind on Earth while Starscream led the rest to a barren asteroid, where they accomplished nothing for three years until Megatron finally returned and took back his rightful position. {{storylink|Revenge of the Decepticons Part 2: Altered Carbon}}

Later, Megatron allowed himself to be captured and brought to a mostly restored Cybertron, where he used a [[space bridge]] built into his body to summon the Decepticon army to him. Then they were brainwashed by [[Galvatron (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity|Galvatron]] and/or [[D-Void]] into combining with the [[Sweep]]s to form a "[[Deceptigod]]". {{storylink|Chaos Part Three: Kings}} Once the monster was defeated, the weakened Decepticons were all captured by the Autobots. They were imprisoned and kept under control using [[inhibitor/deterrence chip]]s in their heads, and the war was considered over. {{storylink|Transformers: The Death of Optimus Prime|The Death of Optimus Prime}}

The Decepticons were released and eventually, in the interests of peace, the chips were deactivated. An uneasy peace exists between Decepticon, Autobots, and the [[NAIL|returning neutrals]], with Starscream rising to power as the Decepticon spokesman (after arranging the death of their previous spokesman, Ratbat, before he could start another war). {{storylink|The World & Everything in It}} {{storylink|A Better Tomorrow}} Out in space, however, the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] refused to accept the war was over and continued hunting down and murdering anyone on their 'list'. {{storylink|Rules of Disengagement}}

Following the [[Dark Cybertron]] crisis, Megatron allowed himself to be put on trial on [[Moonbase Two|Luna 2]], having supposedly abandoned the Decepticon cause.{{storylink|World, Shut Your Mouth Part 1: Towards Peace|Towards Peace}} Thanks to a technicality in the Luna 2 legal system, Megatron was allowed to join the ''[[Lost Light]]'' crew in its quest for the [[Knights of Cybertron]], postponing his ultimate verdict until the Knights could judge him in person. However, in exchange for his continued freedom, Megatron was forced to recite a statement declaring his renouncement of all Decepticon ideals and ordering all remaining Decepticon forces to stand down and do the same. {{storylink|World, Shut Your Mouth Part 3: Predestination: A Beginner's Guide|Predestination: A Beginner's Guide}} In aftermath of Megatron's defection [[Galvatron (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity|Galvatron]] took command of the Decepticons. {{storylink|...And the Damage Done: Dark Cybertron Finale|...And the Damage Done}} Galvatron led them to Earth where they forged an alliance with the EDC. {{storylink|Earthfall Part 1: Hello Cruel World|Hello Cruel World}} According to Ravage, however, Galvatron would be instantly abandoned if Megatron gave the word {{storylink|slaughterhouse}}

==Beast Era==
In ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' continuity, the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] were the descendants of the Decepticons and fought with the same aggression and ideas of conquest. They faced the [[Maximal]]s in the same way their ancestors had fought the [[Autobot]]s.

In the aftermath of the conflict, both sides signed the [[Pax Cybertronia]], which eventually led to peace, but left the Decepticons in a second class position.

==2001 ''Robots in Disguise''==
In the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|''Robots in Disguise'' cartoon]], the Decepticons were a brand new faction that came into being during the events of the story. Because there were so few Decepticons (only six or seven), and because they were a subset of the [[Predacon (RID)|Predacon]] antagonists, they can almost be viewed as a [[subgroup]] rather than a proper faction. The Decepticons were created on Earth when [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]]'s forces captured a set of [[stasis pod]]s from an ancient Transformer spaceship that had been found on [[Earth]], leading to the birth of the [[Commando (RID)|Commandos]] and [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]. The toy version of [[Megatron (RID)|Galvatron]] was also labeled as a Decepticon, although this "change" in the character's faction was only mentioned once in the cartoon series.

In the Japanese version of ''Robots in Disguise'', ''Car Robots'', the Decepticons were known as Combatrons. This is the same name by which the [[Combaticon (G1)|G1 Combaticons]] were called in Japan.

For the [[Hasbro]] toy line, several other non-show Decepticons were added to the ranks to help fill out the line. It is unknown how most of these actually fit into the story, though one of them, [[Axer (G1)|Axer]], is actually a dimension-hopper who arrived from [[Generation 1 continuity family|a Generation 1 universe]].

==Unicron Trilogy==
===Cartoon continuity===
====Armada====
The ''exact'' origins of the Decepticon faction are a bit muddled. It is widely assumed, though never directly confirmed, that the movement was founded by [[Megatron (Armada)/Cartoon continuity|Megatron]]. Also, the enslavement of the power-enhancing [[Mini-Con]]s is considered to be the impetus to the Decepticons' rise to a massive multi-planet-spanning army, though at what point in the war this occurred is unclear; it's possible the Mini-Cons' arrival was what gave Megatron the opportunity to rise to power, or that they arrived after the war had already begun.

Either way, the Mini-Cons fueled the war machine for centuries, and the war with the [[Autobot]]s soon spread from [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] to other worlds. The self-imposed exile of the Mini-Cons to an unknown destination was seen as a major setback for the Decepticons (and something of a pyrrhic victory for the Autobots), but despite this, the war continued, as both sides had amassed a large enough power base to continue on without the little buggers.

The Autobots and Decepticons seemed to fight to a stalemate, neither able to gain a distinct advantage over the other. When a signal reached Cybertron centuries later that the Mini-Cons had landed on [[Earth]], it seemed neither side was capable of sending a full force to retrieve them, despite the power they contained. Though the Decepticon force sent to Earth was small in numbers, it was far from insignificant; Megatron himself led the squad, backed by some of his most trusted warriors.

When Megatron returned to Cybertron, the overwhelming majority of the Mini-Cons were in the protective custody of the Autobots, but Megatron was unfazed; he had assembled the Mini-Cons required to make the three legendary weapons: the [[Star Saber (Armada)|Star Saber]], [[Skyboom (Armada)|Skyboom Shield]] and [[Requiem Blaster (Armada)|Requiem Blaster]]. Bolstered by this new power and the apparent death of [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/Cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]], Megatron attempted to take Cybertron once and for all.

But Megatron's (now calling himself Galvatron) return to Cybertron was the beginning of the end of the Decepticon army. When [[Unicron]] revealed himself as a threat to both armies, fueled by the negative psychic energies from centuries of death and destruction, the two sides eventually joined together to beat back the planet-eater. Despite the truce, Galvatron and Prime engaged in a brutal duel on the surface of the weakened Unicron after the three legendary weapons had been removed from his core. Realizing their battle was keeping Unicron active, Galvatron sacrificed himself, and both Unicron and Galvatron disappeared into nothingness.

====Energon====
[[File:Energon Decepticon insignia.jpg|left|127px|thumb|Now available with added purple!]]
Galvatron's final orders to his troops still stood: work ''with'' the Autobots. The Decepticons maintained a degree of autonomy, still wearing the faction sigil and often taking military/defensive positions in the growing number of [[energon]]-mining colonies, but they were ultimately answerable to Optimus Prime and the Autobots. There were, of course, dissenters, most of whom were captured and imprisoned. For a decade, Autobot and Decepticon worked side-by-side in a somewhat stable truce.

Both sides found themselves the target of attacks from Unicron again; hordes of [[Terrorcon (Energon)|Terrorcon drones]], sent by [[Alpha Quintesson]] to steal energon ore with which to revive the now-shattered husk of Unicron. What the alien did not count on was that Galvatron's [[spark]] had survived within the remains, and was siphoning energon from Unicron's body. Soon the Decepticon leader revived himself in a new form,(calling himself Megatron again) drove off Alpha Quintesson, and along with an elite cadre of soldiers and a seemingly inexhaustible supply of mindless Terrorcon drones, began his ''new'' plans for conquest.

When news of Megatron's return reached Cybertron, hundreds of Decepticons rose up and rebelled, eager to get back to conquering. But having been joined to Unicron for so long apparently had given Megatron a taste of godhood; he had no more interest in amassing a galaxy-spanning army of troops. Countless Decepticons died in the resulting battles, with Megatron more than willing to sacrifice them without a thought to attain ultimate power for himself. As "[[the Powerlinx Battles]]" -as they came to be called- came to their climax, Megatron (calling himself Galvatron ''again'') found that his actions and thoughts were being influenced and controlled by the dark spark of Unicron. Unwilling to let Unicron stand in his way, Galvatron ultimately sacrificed himself (again) and seemingly destroyed Unicron's spark by plunging himself into a newly formed energon sun created by [[Primus]].

{{--}}

====Cybertron====
What little remained of the once-mighty Decepticon army after [[Megatron (Armada)/Cartoon continuity|Megatron's]] loss was at best a loose association of criminals, thugs, and lunatics, with no real political or military power to speak of. For a decade, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] was once again at peace, with the population overwhelmingly [[Autobot]] or neutral. The Transformers had withdrawn from [[Earth]] and its other colonies to focus on revitalizing their homeworld after the devastation of the Powerlinx Battles. However, two great catastrophes shattered this peace; the energon sun collapsed in on itself, forming the powerful black hole known as the [[Unicron Singularity]], which threatened to devour Cybertron and, if left unchecked, the entire universe... and the return yet once again of Megatron, who had absorbed much of what remained of Unicron's power.

Megatron's goal of attaining godhood was now at hand. By obtaining the legendary [[Omega Lock]] and the four [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, Megatron intended to accelerate the growth of the black hole, consuming the universe in a vast sea of nothingness that only he would survive, then use his powers to re-create the universe in his image.

To this end, he had no need of an army. He gathered a small group of allies and lackeys to seek the items he needed, but they were nothing more than pawns to him, to be used and discarded at a whim.

The Decepticons briefly regained their status as a mass army of individuals when [[Starscream (Armada)/Cartoon continuity|Starscream]], who had long suffered at Megatron's hands since the beginning of the Decepticons, made his own bid for ultimate power with the help of the [[Planet X (Cybertron)|Planet X]] agent [[Sideways (RID)|Sideways]]. Having sealed Megatron and his troops in a trap, Starscream freed hundreds of criminal Transformers who had been locked up on [[Earth]] for millennia, and formed his own globe-spanning army. The Decepticon "Monsters" were tasked with finding the Omega Lock and Earth's Cyber Planet Key, which they eventually brought to their leader. However, numerous Decepticons were killed in the battles with the Autobots, and it soon became apparent that Starscream, like Megatron before him, didn't care. Most of these criminals soon abandoned Starscream and went into hiding.

As for Megatron, he too had deserters among his own considerably-small ranks. Most notably, the powerful [[Scourge (Cybertron)|Scourge]], leader of the [[Animatron|Jungle Planet]] and the colossal [[Menasor (Cybertron)|Menasor]] from [[Gigantion]], both of whom eventually joined forces with their former enemies the Autobots.

This was not seen as a concern for Megatron, however, as by this time Starscream and his allies were seemingly destroyed on Gigantion, and Megatron (now calling himself "Galvatron" again) had the Omega Lock and all four Keys. What few Decepticons remained loyal to him were too stupid to see what Galvatron had planned, and made perfect distractions as he set his final plan in motion. If they weren't strong enough to survive the coming cataclysm, then so be it.

[[File:NewDecepticonArmy.jpg|thumb|The yutz, the ditz, the klutz, and the putz.]]
Ultimately, Galvatron's plan failed, and the Unicron Singularity was sealed. His remaining Decepticons quickly left him, realizing what was likely to have happened to them, and eventually joined the Autobots. After Galvatron's seemingly-final defeat and death in a one-on-one duel with [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/Cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron's]] moon, the Decepticons, not knowing when to quit, rose again, albeit in a rather pathetic fashion. Having cobbled together a rather rickety rocket, [[Ransack (Cybertron)|Ransack]], [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]] and [[Thunderblast (Decepticon)|Thunderblast]] shanghaied the reluctant [[Thundercracker (Armada)|Thundercracker]], who was ''really'' keen on being on the winning side for once, and flew off to parts unknown as the "[[New Decepticon Army]]".

They made it to [[Mars (planet)|Mars]] before the rocket crash-landed.

Meanwhile, the Autobot [[Wing Saber (Energon)|Wing Saber]] reported form a deep-space recon mission that he thought he had picked up traces of Starscream, seemingly backed up by Sideways and [[Soundwave (Cybertron)|Soundwave]]. [[Landmine (Energon)|Landmine]] and the former Decepticon [[Mudflap (Cybertron)|Mudflap]] raced off to join Wing Saber and investigate...

===Comics continuity===
====Armada====
Founded by Megatron, the exact number of the original Decepticons is unknown. Using the Mini-Cons as weapons, they were able to conquer Cybertron and force the Autobots underground. Eventually they were beaten due to the arrival of Unicron: his heralds slaughtered the entire Decepticon base on Cybertron, and the Chaos-Bringer's arrival forced them to join forces with the Autobots. With Megatron shot dead during the Unicron battle, the peace held for a period of years.

==Live-action ''Transformers'' movies continuity==
[[File:Defiance3 wearenowDECEPTICONS.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|LATER: Megatron realizes he blew his entire budget on the giant rotating wall symbol.]]

The Decepticons are the Transformers who sided with [[Megatron (Movie)|Lord High Protector Megatron]] and attempted to seize the [[AllSpark]]. Their numbers ranged from the [[Starscream (Movie)|treacherous]], the [[Blackout (Movie)|fanatical]], the [[Brawl (Movie)|violent]], and the [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|treacherous fanatically violent]] to the [[Frenzy (Movie)|spastic]].

The origins of these Decepticons began when a being known as [[The Fallen]] turned on his [[Dynasty of Primes|brother Primes]] in an attempt to seize power at the cost of [[human|humanity's]] existence. One account has it that the Fallen gathered a small army of [[Constructicon (ROTF)|construction drones]] to assist him and named them Decepticons. {{storylink|Tales of the Fallen issue 3}} Either way, he would become known as the ''first'' Decepticon and would go on to become the [[Palpatine|Sidious]] to Megatron's [[Darth Vader|Vader]] {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}, tempting the latent aggressive edge in the Protector. Filled with dreams of power and paranoia of losing that power, Megatron reformed the Cybertron defense force into a massive engine of war, ready to wipe out entire alien species who would dare challenge them. When science leader [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime's]] opposition became known, Megatron branded them traitors and declared his followers to be the Decepticons. Soon after, The Fallen commanded Megatron to build the ''[[Nemesis (ROTF)|Nemesis]]'', a ship that would carry his sarcophagus and Decepticon soldiers in their search for the [[Matrix of Leadership]] left on Earth. Megatron was commanded to remain on Cybertron, so [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] commanded the expedition. Most of the Decepticons left Cybertron, leaving Megatron with a reduced, but still potent, army. {{Storylink|Transformers: Defiance|Defiance}}

War devastated Cybertron. While the Decepticons were heavily reliant on drone units to bolster their forces and were forced to automate many of their outposts, the risk was still too high that they might claim the AllSpark, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 1|Prelude: Optimus Prime}} {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5|Lost In Space 3: Ironhide}} and Optimus Prime made the desperate decision to launch the AllSpark into deep space. Megatron obsessively followed after it, and disappeared. [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] took over leadership, and began a search for Megatron and the AllSpark. After a while, Starscream began to focus more on the AllSpark, hoping Megatron would remain lost, something the other Decepticons began to suspect. {{storylink|Transformers: Ghosts of Yesterday|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

In 2003, Starscream's retrieval team made their way to [[Mars (planet)|Mars]], destroyed the [[Beagle 2 Rover]] and making their way to Earth. In 2007, the Decepticons began to make their presence known, with [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] destroying [[SOCCENT Forward Operations Base]] in [[Qatar]], searching for information on Megatron and the AllSpark. A few days later, [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] hacked [[Air Force One]]'s computers. Although he was unable to find out the truth about [[Sector Seven]], he avoided detection and managed to get a clue in [[Sam Witwicky (Movie)|Sam Witwicky]], whose ancestor [[Archibald Witwicky]] had discovered Megatron a century earlier. His glasses had been marked with coordinates to the AllSpark's location, so [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] and Frenzy attempted to confront the boy. Although they were defeated by [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] and [[Mikaela Banes]], Frenzy hid in Mikaela's purse, and accompanied them to [[Hoover Dam]], where Megatron and the AllSpark were hidden. As Starscream ordered the Decepticons to mobilize, Frenzy shut down the temperature controls while Starscream destroyed the external generators. Megatron was freed, but Bumblebee took the Cube with a group of survivors from Blackout's attack to Mission City, meeting with Optimus Prime's Autobots along the way. In the Battle of Mission City, Megatron and most of the Decepticons were killed and the AllSpark believed destroyed. {{storylink|Transformers (film)|Transformers}}

Starscream, however, survived, and stole Frenzy's remains to access whatever information the humans had on the AllSpark to build [[Replica AllSpark|his own AllSpark]]. Returning to Cybertron, Starscream proclaimed himself [[Decepticon leader]] and began building the replica. One month later, the replica was ready, but it didn't work properly and [[Dreadwing (Movie)|Dreadwing]] made a coup attempt. Starscream barely survived and made his way back to Mars, questioning his purpose, when he received word that the Autobots would be helping the humans destroy Megatron's remains. Hoping to destroy Prime, Megatron, and the traitor [[Wreckage (Movie)|Wreckage]] all at once, Starscream returned to Earth. Although he managed to destroy Wreckage, Prime had already left with Megatron's body. Just as he defeated Bumblebee, Starscream received word from Soundwave, who had brought the ''Nemesis'' to Earth's solar system. After meeting up with Soundwave, Starscream explained the situation, and returned to the ''Nemesis'' to awaken the remaining Decepticons and oversee the spawning of more [[hatchling]]s while Soundwave lead a scout team to Earth. {{storylink|Transformers: The Reign of Starscream|The Reign of Starscream}} {{storylink|Transformers: Alliance}}

[[File:ROTF Fallen message.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|The Fallen performs what may be the greatest [[Rick Astley|Rick roll]] in history.]]
Over the next two years, the Decepticons searched for the [[Tomb of the Primes]], which housed the Matrix needed to activate the solar harvester. In 2009, Soundwave discovered Megatron's resting place in the [[Laurentian Abyss]] and the presence of an AllSpark shard on [[Diego Garcia]]. Dispatching [[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage]] and the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]]s, the Decepticons managed to restore Megatron's [[Spark]] and bring him back to life. Returning to the Decepticon flagship, the ''Nemesis'', Megatron learned from the Fallen that the AllSpark's knowledge was now within Sam Witwicky's mind, who had destroyed the Cube when he killed Megatron. Further commanded to kill Optimus Prime, Megatron captured the boy. Although the boy escaped, Megatron, Starscream and Grindor battled Optimus, and Megatron eventually managed to kill the last Prime. Megatron then decided that a show of force was needed to compel the humans to turn Sam over to them. The Fallen lead Decepticon protoforms to Earth and then broadcast a message demanding the humans turn over Sam. Sam was eventually found in [[Egypt]], where the harvester was hidden under a pyramid. In Egypt, a battle took place around the pyramids. Although the Fallen managed to reclaim the Matrix, it had already been used to resurrect Optimus, who was then made more powerful by being fused with Jetfire, a defected Decepticon. Optimus Prime then destroyed the harvester and confronted the Fallen. After a fierce fight, the Fallen was finally killed by Optimus. Seeing his master's demise, Megatron, who had been severely injured during the battle, retreated with Starscream, vowing revenge. {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

[[File:DOTM-Moonspacebridge.jpg|upright=1.67|right|thumb|Fly me to the Earth.]]
After three years of relative quiet, the Decepticons returned to NEST's radar when they enacted a scheme decades in the making, luring Optimus to the crashed ''[[Ark (DOTM)|Ark]]'' on the [[Moon]]. Optimus revived [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]], who soon revealed that he had joined up with Megatron to restore Cybertron. Sentinel activated his space bridge, bringing forth an army of Decepticons who had hidden on the Moon. Sentinel issued an ultimatum to humanity: deport the Autobots from Earth or be destroyed. Humanity complied and the Autobots left in their spacecraft, but Starscream destroyed the ship once their human operative [[Dylan Gould]] learned they would leave without a fight. The Decepticons then stormed Chicago, slaughtering thousands of humans and made the city into a fortress impenetrable to the human military. Decepticons scattered across the globe to get Sentinel Prime's [[pillar]]s in place, so that they could create a space bridge large enough to bring Cybertron to Earth, enslaving humanity to reconstruct their home.

However, the Autobots had survived the destruction of their ship, foreseeing the Decepticons' treachery, and with the help of Sam Witwicky and a small crew of human allies, began a great battle to destroy Sentinel's space bridge. In the ensuing battle, the majority of the Decepticons' chain of command was killed off before the Autobots took the fight to Sentinel once the control pillar was temporarily disabled. After a brief duel, Sentinel ordered the Decepticons' entire [[Orbital Assault Carrier]] fleet to attack Optimus. With Sentinel battling the majority of the Autobots, the OAC's attacking Optimus, and the [[Wrecker]]s engaging the incoming terrestrial Decepticons, Gould was left to reactivate the control pillar. Though he succeeded, he was killed by Sam, and the pillar was destroyed, taking Cybertron, the Decepticons' remaining air force, and the space bridge with it. Sentinel attempted to escape, but was intercepted by Optimus. Though Sentinel managed to defeat Optimus, he was attacked and grievously wounded by Megatron, who sought to regain the power he had lost in the past few years. Megatron then attempted to deceive Optimus into thinking that he wanted peace, but Optimus saw through the ruse and seemingly killed the tyrant once and for all. Sentinel Prime was then executed by Optimus. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon}}

Unfortunately, this Autobot victory was quickly negated when [[Harold Attinger]] rallied [[Cemetery Wind]], a secret [[CIA]] cabal who began hunting down all Autobots and Decepticons left around the globe, with the help of [[Lockdown (ROTF)|Lockdown]] the bounty hunter. Five years later, less than a dozen Transformers from either faction had survived the hunt. Though both factions were being slaughtered, Attinger claimed he was only hunting Decepticons, and their remains were sent to [[Kinetic Solutions Incorporated]] to be melted down to be made into new Transformers remote-controlled by humans. Megatron's head was recovered from Chicago, but no one except [[Brains]] discovered that the Decepticon leader had survived, and was biding his time by secretly worming his way into KSI's military prototype, [[Galvatron (AOE)|Galvatron]]. Megatron also gave his new body operational control of the other fifty drones KSI had built. This was all in order to obtain the [[Seed]] that Lockdown would eventually pay Attinger and KSI with in exchange for help in apprehending Optimus Prime, so that Megatron could cyberform a large city to announce his return and build a massive army.

[[File:AOE-Climb.jpg|upright=1.67|thumb|left|HE STOLE MY LINE!!!]]
Optimus only became aware of Galvatron's true nature after a lengthy battle with the drone, and passed the knowledge on to his human ally [[Cade Yeager]]. Yeager tried to warn [[Joshua Joyce]] of Galvatron's plot regarding the Seed, but it was too late, and Galvatron rebelled, christening the drones he took control of Decepticons. The Autobots came to rescue Joyce and the Seed in Hong Kong, but Galvatron set his army upon them, sparking a large battle. [[Hound (Movie)|Hound]] and Bumblebee were nearly overwhelmed by the Decepticons until Optimus arrived with the [[Dinobot (AOE)|Dinobots]], decimating the majority of them. The last few Decepticons were killed when Optimus detonated one of Lockdown's grenades. Galvatron, having escaped the battle when the Dinobots arrived, took off for parts unknown, his plans temporarily stymied.
{{Storylink|Transformers: Age of Extinction (film)|Age of Extinction}}

[[File:Titan23 decepticonsmassing.JPG|upright=1.4|thumb|Company photo day.]]
The Decepticons are, in general, less human in appearance than the Autobots in the movie, resembling carnivorous mammals, birds, insects or the Decepticon insignia itself (possibly to frighten the [[Human|insects]]). What is also most noticeable about the Decepticons in the movie franchise is that they've actually been designed to resemble the insignia of their faction, most notably Megatron, Blackout, Barricade, and the Fallen; the insignia is in fact based on the Fallen's ugly mug. {{storylink|Transformers: Defiance|Defiance}}

{{note|In a departure from previous Transformers incarnations, Japan used the name "Decepticons" for this franchise, rather than "Destrons".<ref>[http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/movie/decepticons.html Movie Decepticons toy listing on Takaratomy.com]</ref>}}

{{-}}

==Animated==
Around 1 billion years ago, the [[Destron (Animated)|Destrons]] emerged as a new faction on the Protectobot governed Cybertron. Led by [[Devron (Animated)|Devron]], the [[Third Cybertronian War]] was fought between the Destrons and the Protectobots (who were led by the new leader [[Nova Magnus]]). ''The Destrons emerged victorious, though many Cybertronian records were forever lost due to the [[Great Purge]]. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

The Decepticons came to prominence as a sub-faction of the Destrons around 70 million years ago. They advocated the use of the AllSpark to bring Cybertron itself to life, that it might serve as a cosmic juggernaut that would allow the Transformers to return to the era of expansion and colonization of other worlds they had enjoyed nearly 700 million years beforehand. When the Decepticon leader [[Megazarak (Animated)|Megazarak]] was ousted by charismatic rhetorician named [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], tensions finally exploded, and the Autobots and Decepticons went to [[Great War (Animated)|war]] for possession of the AllSpark.

After something in the vicinity of six million years of civil war, things reached a crisis point when the Decepticons began a strategic bombing campaign on Cybertron, demanding the AllSpark be turned over in exchange for a cessation of hostilities. {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}} Rather than give in to Megatron's demands, the Autobots instead sought to put the AllSpark beyond any Cybertronian's reach, launching it randomly through a [[space bridge]] to some distant corner of the galaxy, where it was hoped it would never be found. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out}}

4 million stellar cycles ago, the Autobots and Decepticons battled each other in what is now known as The Great War. The Autobots pulled a victory only due to their exclusive access to [[space bridge]]s and their decision to send the [[AllSpark]] into deep space. Defeated, the Decepticons dispersed, and, according to [[Ultra Magnus (Animated)|Ultra Magnus]], the only sight of them would be an occasional scout ship. In fact, they had been missing for so long, [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] believed a Decepticon presence was a thing of the past. This was quickly reassessed upon encountering [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron's]] crew. In his final battle against Optimus, Megatron was taken back to Cybertron, along with [[Lugnut (Animated)|Lugnut]] and [[Shockwave (Animated)|Shockwave]], for imprisonment. The rest are still at large, except Starscream, who died when his AllSpark fragment was removed.

{{groupstub}}

{{note|As with the movie Decepticons, the Animated Decepticons are not called Destrons in Japan.}}

==Shattered Glass==
[[File:Decepticon Shattered Glass.png|thumb|Decepticons wage their battles to destroy...]]
{{quote|Your tyranny ends here, Prime! Cybertronians will once again know the freedom which is their right!|Megatron|"[[Shattered Glass]]"}}
In this universe, the Decepticons are the good guys and a resistance group, intended to overthrow Autobot tyranny and their dastardly leader, [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]]. Led by the heroic [[Megatron (SG)|Megatron]], the 'Cons want to liberate Cybertron and preserve freedom and life across the galaxy, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|no matter the cost]]. But if they fail to stop the Autobots, not only will the Autobots conquer [[Earth]], they will also enslave the universe and all will be lost. {{storylink|Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass}}

{{-}}

==Aligned==
{{bigquote|Sometimes deception is necessary, when those who should listen to the truth will not, and will only understand once they have been lied to and forced to see their own lies.|[[Megatron (WFC)|Megatron]].}}

[[File:Megatroncamehome.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|"Breakdown! Assume the footrest position! Soundwave! Log into my Netflix! Knock Out, you... erm. Go make some popcorn or something."]]
The Decepticons originated from those in the [[caste system|lower castes]] of Cybertronian society in the [[Badlands (Cybertron)|Badlands]]. Megatron, a gladiator who seized control of all the gladiatorial pits and assumed the name of The Fallen, began preaching to the dispossessed on the Grid. He allowed them to bomb Cybertron and throw their society into chaos, for he rightly believed if he denied any connection to their extremist behavior, it would elevate him in the eyes of the [[Autobot High Council|High Council]]. Even the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] [[Starscream (WFC)|Starscream]] kidnapped [[Sentinel Zeta Prime|Sentinel Prime]] for him. When the Council questioned Megatron about the movement's name, he denied he had heard of it, though he also accepted it for reasons outlined above.

When Halogen appointed Orion the new Prime, Megatron declared his Decepticons would continue to fight for freedom. During the war they conquered eighty-five percent of the planet, as well as occupying [[Moonbase One|Moon Base One]] and [[Trypticon (WFC)|Trypticon]] Station, before poisoning the [[core]] itself with [[Dark Energon]]. When the Autobots left aboard the ''[[Ark (WFC)|Ark]]'', Trypticon transformed into the ''Nemesis'' and followed them with Megatron, Starscream, [[Soundwave (WFC)|Soundwave]] and [[Lugnut (WFC)|Lugnut]] into unknown space, while [[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]] took control of the Cybertronian Decepticons. {{storylink|Transformers: Exodus}}

===Prime===
Eons later, Megatron, Starscream, Soundwave, [[Knock Out (Prime)|Knock Out]] and [[Breakdown (WFC)|Breakdown]] were based on [[Earth]], with a mass-produced [[Vehicon (Prime)|Vehicon]] army. During a three-year lull, Starscream was ordered to build a [[space bridge]] and to mine more Energon. {{storylink|Transformers: Prime (graphic novel)}} Megatron returned, but not with the army Starscream had hoped for. Instead he tried to raise an army of [[Terrorcon (Prime)|Terrorcon]] [[zombie]]s to eradicate humanity, but failed and perished in a space bridge implosion, leaving Starscream in command once more. {{storylink|Darkness Rising}} It emerged he survived, and he was retrieved and placed in sickbay. {{storylink|Masters & Students}} Meanwhile, Starscream and Soundwave waited for opportunities to pounce on [[Team Prime]] with their Vehicons. {{storylink|Con Job}} {{storylink|Convoy (episode)|Convoy}}
[[File:DeusExMachina-fourcons.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Starscream: "We're gonna go out there and catch those museum thieves red-handed!" <br/> Breakdown: "What color are their hands now?"]]

Megatron eventually returned to life, nearly killing Starscream for his part in his near-death in the space bridge explosion. {{storylink|Sick Mind}}{{storylink|Out of His Head}}{{storylink|Shadowzone (episode)|Shadowzone}} Despite his brush with death, Starscream continued to secretly operate against Megatron {{storylink|Operation: Breakdown}}, which came to a grinding halt when Megatron forced him to beg for his life in an abandoned Energon mine. {{storylink|Rock Bottom}} Finding neither respect from Megatron following this incident nor mercy from the [[Arcee (WFC)|Autobots]], as well as seemingly being replaced by former rogue [[Airachnid (Prime)|Airachnid]], Starscream abandoned the Decepticons, becoming neutral, and leaving Airachnid to take his place. {{storylink|Partners}}

Seeking to attain more Dark Energon to coincide with a prophecy that he interpreted as his own destiny in the [[Covenant of Primus]], Megatron raced to complete a second space bridge. Optimus Prime sought to stop this plot by finally ending the Decepticon leader's life{{storylink|One Shall Fall}}, but a larger problem became apparent. Following an explosion of Dark Energon from a volcano, it was surmised that [[Unicron]] was awakening at the [[Earth's core|core of Earth]]. Rejected from Unicron's service,{{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 1}} Megatron formed a shaky alliance with Optimus {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 2}} to defeat Unicron. During this time, acting Decepticon leader Airachnid attempted to abandon Megatron to Unicron's wrath, but following a humiliating defeat at the hands of Soundwave, relinquished command to the communications officer. With the power of the Matrix of Leadership, Optimus was able to defeat Unicron. However, Optimus' surrender of the Matrix's power also lost him his memories of being a Prime, and he took upon his old 'Orion Pax' persona. {{storylink|One Shall Rise, Part 3}} Megatron took advantage of Orion's amnesia, setting him to work on [[Project Iacon]], to find various relics from Cybertron hidden on Earth. {{storylink|Orion Pax, Part 1}} Eventually, however, the Autobots were successful in restoring Orion Pax to Optimus Prime, halting work on the project {{storylink|Orion Pax, Part 3}}.

Former Seeker captain [[Dreadwing (Prime)|Dreadwing]] arrived on Earth {{storylink|Loose Cannons}}, and was promoted to second in command following Airachnid's departure and murder of Breakdown (whose remains were recovered by human terrorist organization MECH). {{storylink|Crossfire}} Airachnid later sent her armada of [[Insecticon (WFC)|Insecticons]] to kill Megatron, but following her defeat at the hands of Arcee, the Insecticons were freed from her control and then integrated into Megatron's forces. However, [[Bulkhead (Prime)|Bulkhead's]] actions caused the ''Nemesis'' to crash on Earth, {{storylink|Armada (episode)}} prompting Megatron to use Dark Energon to repair the ship. Unexpectedly, the Dark Energon enhanced Nemesis gained sentience, and disabled the Decepticons and worked to complete Project Iacon and collect the relics around the world. Through the efforts of [[Jack Darby (Prime)|the]] [[William Fowler|Autobots]] [[Miko Nakadai (Prime)|human]] [[Raf Esquivel|allies]], the ship's sentience was defeated, but had already located four Iacon relics. {{storylink|Flying Mind}} The Decepticon forces were sent to the four locations around the world: Knock Out and an Insecticon to New York City {{storylink|Tunnel Vision}}, Dreadwing to Antarctica {{storylink|Triangulation}}, Soundwave to a wooded area {{storylink|Triage (episode)|Triage}}, and [[Hardshell (Prime)|Hardshell]] to a volcano around the equator. {{storylink|Toxicity}} Knock Out, Dreadwing, and Hardshell's endeavours all end in failure, Soundwave being the only victorious one. {{storylink|Triage (episode)|Triage}} After mistakenly reporting Bulkhead's destruction to Megatron, Hardshell was himself destroyed by a vengeful Wheeljack and Miko.{{storylink|Hurt}}

[[File:FlyingMind-DecepticonsOnDeck.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.67|And the Decepticons always remembered this as the day Megatron said, [[Frank Welker|"Well it was either this or college!"]]]]
Breakdown's remains were used to save the mortally wounded {{storylink|Nemesis Prime (episode)}} MECH leader Silas - to Megatron and Knock Out's disgust - who attempted to join the Decepticon ranks, but when his offering of Project Damocles was destroyed by the Autobots, he was hauled away for dissection by Knock Out. The effort did bear fruit in that the location of Raf Esquivel's home was discovered,{{storylink|The Human Factor}} narrowing down the location of the Autobot base. {{storylink|Hard Knocks}}. The Decepticons lost the upper hand briefly when Optimus acquired the [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] {{storylink|Legacy}}, but the blade was destroyed by Megatron's knock-off [[Dark Star Saber]]. Additionally, the Decepticons found the existence of the [[Omega Key]]s on Earth, though they were unaware of their true function. {{storylink|Alpha/Omega}}. Knock Out successfully retrieved a Key, while Dreadwing lost one, but it turned out new Autobot recruit [[Smokescreen (Prime)|Smokescreen]] is the final Key, and was promptly kidnapped by Soundwave. {{storylink|Hard Knocks}} Megatron learned of the Omega Keys' ability to revive Cybertron, but Smokescreen made off with the two Keys the Decepticons possessed. However, the rogue Starscream was able to steal all three Autobot Keys, and proposed to use them as a bargaining chip to return to the Decepticons. {{storylink|Inside Job}}

Naturally, Megatron was less than convinced of Starscream's loyalty, and watched his memories via cortical psychic patch to find his true motives. While evidence of Starscream's treachery was rampant, Megatron allowed him to return since the Decepticons must be united to revive Cybertron. However, Dreadwing was enraged and disillusioned by Megatron's pardon, since his leader was apathetic to Skyquake becoming one of the undead, {{storylink|Patch (episode)}} but his attempt to murder Starscream was halted when Megatron killed him with his own blaster. Starscream returned to his position of second-in-command, and worked out the location of the Omega Lock on Cybertron. Megatron battled the Autobots on their home planet, lost the Keys, but Starscream, Knock Out and Soundwave kidnapped the Autobots' human allies and held them hostage. {{storylink|Regeneration (Prime)}} The Autobots handed over the Keys in exchange for the children, and Megatron turned the power of the Omega Lock on Earth to cyberform it. Optimus used the Star Saber to destroy the Omega Lock and all hope of restoring Cybertron, but Megatron launched a full-scale invasion of the Earth from his new fortress of [[Darkmount (Earth)|Darkmount]], with his first act of aggression being destroying the [[Autobot Outpost Omega One|Autobot base]]. {{storylink|Darkest Hour (episode)|Darkest Hour}}

In the wake of the Autobots' defeat, and having found no corpses in the base's remains, the Decepticons increased global surveillance to find them - also dealing a similarly devastating blow against the United States military with its fusion cannons. Megatron feigned a desire for peace to the US government, a cover for his eventual violent conquest of Earth. A search on Cybertron for the missing relics turned up [[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]], {{storylink|Darkmount, NV}} who is quickly reinstated into the Decepticon command structure as first lieutenant of all scientific endeavors, to Starscream's chagrin. Efforts to find the Autobots resulted only in failure, leading Shockwave to unleash the massive [[Predacon (Prime)|Predacon]] he cloned, [[Predaking (Prime)|Predaking]] to hunt down the Autobots, {{storylink|Scattered}} only for it to come home empty-handed. {{storylink|Prey (episode)|Prey}} The Autobots were able to spread the Decepticon ranks thin and away from Darkmount, and the newly arrived [[Ultra Magnus (WFC)|Ultra Magnus]] lead the regrouped team to assault the fortress. The attack was eventually halted and the Autobots were taken prisoner, only for an upgraded Optimus Prime to arrive and single-handedly turn the tide. Earth's military was able to bring Darkmount crumbling to the ground, forcing the Decepticons to go on the defense and return to using the ''Nemesis'' as their base of operations. {{storylink|Rebellion (Prime)}}

The Decepticons turned their efforts to cloning, and enjoyed a string of successful ventures to retrieve Predacon fossils to engineer an army of the extinct beasts thanks to the efforts of Shockwave and Soundwave, {{storylink|Project Predacon}} the Predacon, {{storylink|Chain of Command (Prime)}} and Knock Out. {{storylink|Plus One}} Jealous of Megatron's favoring Shockwave, Starscream coerced Knock Out to create an army of super soldiers with a mix of Dark and [[Synthetic Energon]], starting with the imprisoned Cylas. However, this only created a new form of Terrorcon that craved and drained Energon from a victim, starting a plague that threatened the entire ship. The Decepticons struggled to repel the infected, until Cylas freed Airachnid from her stasis pod. The former prisoner killed Cylas and called the Insecticons to rejoin her, but Airachnid's latest attempt to overthrow Megatron was put down by Soundwave, who bridged her and her army to a dead moon of Cybertron. The crisis weakened the Decepticons with the loss of the Insecticons and the infected Vehicons, having depleted more than half of their military strength. Shockwave subsequently speeded up progress on Project Predacon, {{storylink|Thirst}} but Predaking revealed his sentience and ability to transform on the verge of the project's completion. The former beast asked to lead the coming Predacons on Megatron's behalf, but the Decepticon leader and his command staff knew better than to give him control of a more powerful army than the depleted Decepticons. Following a plot engineered by Starscream, the Decepticons allowed the Autobots to destroy the Predacons before they escape their pods, to Predaking's horror and rage. The destruction of the lab, coupled with the presence of Synthetic Energon, resulted in the lab being filled with pure Cybermatter. {{storylink|Evolution}}

[[File:Deadlock-Megatron-Decepticons-extinguished.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Megatron shouldn't have gone to Unicron for life insurance.]]
Shockwave realized the Cybermatter could cyberform entire worlds. Megatron resolved to restore the Omega Lock and rule a cyberformed Earth and a revived Cybertron, but found the synthetic Energon formula was incomplete, and had Ratchet delivered to him by the captured Soundwave, while his lieutenants gathered human technology to repair the Omega Lock. {{storylink|Minus One}} As the device was being restored, Megatron appealed to Ratchet to finish the synthetic Energon formula, playing on the medic's love for his home to outweigh his reservations about aiding the leader of the Decepticons. Ratchet eventually consented when he was shown the nearly completed Omega Lock {{storylink|Persuasion}} and soon completed the formula. In return, Megatron turned him over to the vengeful Predaking, but Ratchet - having learned the truth thanks to a slip up from Knock Out - revealed Megatron's plot to wipe out Project Predacon. Predaking turned on the Decepticons and slaughtered countless Vehicons, but was bested by Megatron in combat. Ratchet gave his comrades a way onto the warship, and Megatron mobilized his remaining army for their last stand. {{storylink|Synthesis}} While Megatron battled Optimus with the Dark Star Saber, Jack and Miko banished Soundwave to the [[shadowzone (dimension)|shadowzone]] on the bridge, while the other Autobots fought to capture the ship. Smokescreen and Bumblebee tried to get the Star Saber to Optimus, but Megatron killed Bumblebee as he tried to do so. However, the scout's corpse, having fallen info the Omega Lock, was revived by the Cybermatter, and ran Megatron through with the Star Saber, finally killing the leader of the Decepticons once and for all. Their leader dead, Shockwave, Starscream, and what few Vehicons remained abandoned ship, while Knock Out attempted to join the winning team. The ''Nemesis'' was used to fire the Omega Lock into the [[Well of All Sparks]], and Cybertron was restored. {{storylink|Deadlock (episode)|Deadlock}}

Most of the Vehicons had theoretically surrendered to the Autobots, and were part of an inept crew of construction workers under Bulkhead's watch. Though, not all hope was lost for the Decepticons. Shockwave & Starscream had been moving to the former's labs, cloning more Predacons to overthrow the Autobots in their newly restored home world. However, when Unicron took over Megatron's semi-lifeless body, the [[Skylynx|two]] [[Darksteel (Prime)|Predacons]] they had cloned joined [[Predaking (Prime)|Predaking]] in helping the Autobots save Cybertron from an army of Terrorcon-Predacons headed to corrupt the core once more, after Shockwave had been beaten up by the zombie dragons and encouraged the Predacons' decision. To make matters worse for them, Knock Out, who had been imprisoned by the Autobots, officially joined their side. When the Autobots put a stop to Unicron's plans and trapped Unicron in the [[AllSpark]]'s container, Megatron officially disbanded the Decepticons after being victim of Unicron's eternal torture and realized the true meaning of oppression. With Starscream all alone, he returned to his roots and decided to take command of the no longer functioning faction, but the Predacons had something in store for their former abuser... {{storylink|Predacons Rising (Prime)|Predacons Rising}}

===Rescue Bots===
Bumblebee mistook the [[MorBot]]s as Decepticons. {{storylink|Bot to the Future}}

==Merchandise==
===Transformers (2007)===
====Transformers Movie Screen Cleaners====
[[File:Movie Decepticon Screencleaner.jpg|105px|thumb|Transforms your dirty screen to a clean one and — well, actually just the first thing.]]
*'''Decepticon''' (2008)
:Released by Tomy Yujin on January, this dangler is a [[Insignia|faction logo]]-shaped screen cleaner for your cell phone, with a stock image of Decepticon insignia printed on the other side.
{{--}}

==Notes==
===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Destron''' (デストロン ''Desutoron''), '''Combatron''' (''Car Robots'', コンバットロン ''Konbatoron''), '''Decepticon''' (ディセプティコン ''Diseputikon'')
*''Armenian:'' '''Deseptikonner''' (Դեսեպտիկոններ, "Decepticons")
*''Cantonese:'' '''Kwòng Pāǐ''' (Hong Kong, 狂派, "Con Faction", literally "Mad Faction" or "Crazy Clan")
*''Danish'': '''Bedragerne''' (Marvel comic, "Betrayers"), '''Bedraonerne''' (''The Transformers'' cartoon)
*''French:'' '''Decepticans''' (France ''The Transformers'' cartoon)
*''Hungarian:'' '''Álcák''' (Marvel comic, "Disguises"), '''Decepticonok''' (toy commercial, second ''The Movie'' dub), '''Varangyok''' (first ''The Movie'' dub, "Toads"), '''Robotikák''' (''Energon'', ''Cybertron'', "Roboticas")
*''Italian:'' '''Distructors'''
*''Korean:'' '''Decepticon''' (디셉티콘 ''Diseptikon'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Dí Sài Gāng''' (Taiwan, 迪賽剛), '''Bà Tiān Hǔ''' (China, 霸天虎, "Heavenly Tyrant Tiger")
*''Polish:'' '''Deceptikony''', '''Decepcjokony''' (first ''The Movie'' dub, "Deceptiocons"), '''Dezorientaci''' (''Beast Wars'')
*''Portuguese:'' '''Decépticos''' (Portugal comic), '''Malignus''' (Brazil comic)
*''Serbian:'' '''Deseptikoni'''
*''Swedish:'' '''Bedragare''' (Marvel comic, "Betrayers")
*''Ukrainian:'' '''Obmanoidy''' (Обманоіди, "Decepticons")

==References==
<references/>

[[Category:Alternators]]
[[Category:Alternity]]
[[Category:Animated factions]]
[[Category:Armada]]
[[Category:Beast Machines]]
[[Category:Beast Wars]]
[[Category:Beastformers franchise]]
[[Category:Cybertron franchise]]
[[Category:Dark of the Moon]]
[[Category:Decepticons| ]]
[[Category:Energon franchise]]
[[Category:Factions]]
[[Category:Generation 1 factions]]
[[Category:Generation 2]]
[[Category:Machine Wars]]
[[Category:Micromaster]]
[[Category:Movie]]
[[Category:Operation Combination]]
[[Category:Predacon subgroups]]
[[Category:Prime]]
[[Category:Return of Convoy]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen]]
[[Category:Robotmasters]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001)]]
[[Category:Super-God Masterforce]]
[[Category:The Headmasters]]
[[Category:Universe (2003)]]
[[Category:Victory]]
[[Category:Zone]]

Talk:Ironhide (G1)

2015-04-26T16:44:31Z

John3637881: /* New pages */ I agree with you!

== Back in Black ==
Not sure how best to add this to the Toy section of the site (under G1 Ironhide? in its own sub-section?), so I'm putting all the basic info here for now:

e-Hobby is coming out with (gasp) another black recolor exclusive, but at least this one has some historical legitimacy/excuse.

New Year Special e-Hobby Exclusive: TF Encore Black Protective Ironhide
will be priced at 4725 yen. Pre-orders being taken until Jan. 11, with a projected shipping date of next April.

The black coloration's meant to homage Ironhide's original Diaclone version, but taken in conjunction with the Emergency Green Ratchet (and a hint in his tech specs), it's a double homage to the new movie Ironhide. (Well, a triple homage if you want to count the A-Team van.) The packaging will be the same as the regular TF Encore Ironhide's.

According to his tech specs, he got the black protective coating to disguise himself from both Destrons and members of the human criminal underworld when he's acting as Convoy's bodyguard. Not a few of his fellow Cybertrons have whispered to him that he looks like a "men in black" vehicle, but Ironhide insists he got the idea from the deep black coloration of pickup trucks he saw around town. The coating, a composite gel metal, has made his trithyllium steel skin even more durable, allowing him to self-repair minor injuries right away. His robot/mobile artillery form (that's how they refer to the MARB) is now 25% more maneuverable than before, and he can handle even the worst of roads using his three-legged Marauder Mode. (I'm guessing that's the name for the robot portion perched on top of the MARB.)

Images and such are [http://www.e-hobby.co.jp/cgi-bin/omc?port=33301&tno=11964126283JGBV&req=PRODUCT&code=tfe27 here].--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 08:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

:So far all G1 reissues and special G1 toy repaints released under the G1 brand have been place under the same Generation 1 toy sub section as the original release.
:I think it's highly likely that in TakaraTomy marketing terms, the black repaint while a Diaclone colour scheme (which is convenient), actually has less to do with Diaclone than it does with them repainting an Ironhide in colours marginally similar to Movie Ironhide, hence that green Ratchet. By having a black Ironhide who's also a Diaclone colour scheme, they get the widest possible niche customer base for the product. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 08:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
::Oh, no doubt the double homage was a purposeful marketing move. The e-Hobby page simply makes direct mention of the Diaclone version but leaves the movie aspect to be hinted at purely in the tech spec text. Anyway, I'm about to turn in for the night, so I'll see about integrating this tomorrow, unless someone else gets to it first.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 09:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

:::I think your Black Ironhide entry will need to be rewritten eventually, since that info from his bio tech spec shouldn't be in the toy section. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 21:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't really mind it being there. I've forgotten what the latest version of policy regarding putting fiction details from a specific toy release in with the toy's information is, but this at least seems more clean and less awkward than having an eHobby subheader under the Fiction section saying that sometimes he puts on a black finish. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::This possible flub was all part and parcel of my uncertainty regarding adding this info to the article in the first place, and why I put all the info I had on the Talk page first. If it turns out I've misplaced the tech spec info by wikia standards, by all means, please put it where it's supposed to be. I don't get to come here enough to abate all my ignorance in a timely fashion, so it'll be faster. OTOH, based on Walky's comments, I suspect it won't have to be moved until/unless this version of the character gains a more substantial presence in official TF fiction.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

== Head Count ==

According to the latest entry at Autobase Aichi, the January '08 issue of ''Hyper Hobby'' contains photos of the TF Encore Ironhide with a ''head made out of paper'' attached. Be on the lookout for that one...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 08:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
:And sure enough, now [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/encore/e-05.html Takara's site has a photo]. Ratchet's getting [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/encore/e-06.html the same treatment]. Both are set to go on sale Dec. 20.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 16:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

== Depends what you mean by "G1" ==

Walky cut the line "Interestingly, this is the only G1 Ironhide toy to date that doesn't share a mold with Ratchet," with the explanation "Power Master Ironhide doesn't share one with Ratchet either." Power Master Ironhide was a G2 toy (representing a G1 character). So, either, A) the line should be reinstated, since it refers to only G1 toys, or B) the original line was ''twice'' wrong, since Magamaboss Ironhide also represents the G1 character, and its mold has never been used for Ratchet. Thoughts? [[User:JW|JW]] 13:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
:I certainly specified G1 by meaning more or less "red vannish things that always get painted white and have lights slapped on their roofs." Perhaps it's a weaker grouping than I thought.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

== New pages ==

We should add the separate pages for Ironhide because the page is too long and Ironhide deserves these pages( in my opinion). In fact, I will try making the pages, but keep the source page untouched.I know this might not work but it is worth a try.[[User:IronhideG1|IronhideG1]] ([[User talk:IronhideG1|talk]]) 12:38, 26 April 2015 (EDT)

:<b>Agreed!</b> The page is too long and there's enough content to adequately fill both of your suggested pages. On top of that, Ironhide is one of the most famous Autobots in G1, and I agree that he deserves it. [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 12:44, 26 April 2015 (EDT)

Talk:Dark Awakening (episode)

2015-04-20T03:09:45Z

John3637881: Question about possible continuity error?

The name of the ship Hot Rod and co. use to catch up to the Autobot flagship is properly parsed "Intercept-One". (Not that we have pages for either that ship or the flagship...) --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 22:44, 5 December 2009 (EST)

Under "Continuity Errors", it says: "''Somehow Hot Rod is able to throw Prime so hard his arm breaks off. Even Megatron couldn't do that, and there's no indication that it was weak before.''" I can't speak for anyone else, but doesn't Optimus Prime spend the whole episode in a state of crumbly disrepair? - [[User:Caswin|Caswin]] 00:50, 7 March 2012 (EST)
: Yeah, I think that note's a little iffy as well. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:53, 7 March 2012 (EST)
::Agreed. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 01:05, 7 March 2012 (EST)

==Possible Error?==
In the "Continuity Notes" section, I think it might deserve to be mentioned that perhaps it is an error on the part of the script-writers when it is revealed that Huffer was killed. Because I've actually confused him with Brawn many, many times. Maybe the makers of this episode made the same mistake? [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 23:09, 19 April 2015 (EDT)

MediaWiki:TFWiki.net 2015 Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions/Character

2015-04-14T18:12:00Z

John3637881: /* Poll entries */

This is the page for the '''TFWiki.net Transformers Hall of Fame Favorite Character Auditions''' entries. The rules are as follows:

#You must pick your top three NON-COMBINED ''Transformers'' characters, from any era. They must actually '''be''' Transformers; sorry, but no humans, non-Transformer aliens, non-Transformer robots, or anything else of the sort are being considered for the Hall of Fame. Any votes for such entities will '''not''' be tabulated. It is the sole discretion of the contest organizers to decide what does and does not count.
##Combined form votes '''[[TFWiki.net 2015 Transformers Hall of Fame Auditions/Combiner|go here!]]'''
#Take your top three list and '''put it in alphabetical order'''. Order of preference does not matter. Feel free to denote the character's franchise of origin, although these distinctions may or may not figure into the final results.
#You '''cannot''' pick a specific version of '''Arcee, Bumblebee, Dinobot, Grimlock, Ironhide, Jazz, Megatron, ''Beast Wars'' Megatron, Optimus Prime, Ratchet, Rodimus, Shockwave, Soundwave, Starscream, Ultra Magnus, Waspinator, or Wheeljack.''' They've already been inducted!
#However, '''you CAN vote''' for [[Optimus Primal]]'''! Hasbro considers him separate!
#Only one entry per user.

Please put your characters of choice and user name below in the following manner:

*Bulkhead, Emirate Xaaron, Hot Shot--<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>

Poll entry period ends at 8am on '''[[April 20]]th, 2015'''. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 18:13, 13 April 2015 (EDT)

==Poll entries==

* Impactor, Scrounge, Thunderclash--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:23, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blaster, Optimus Primal, Prowl --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:52, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Elita One, Optimus Primal, Wreck-Gar--[[User:Zakor1138|Zakor1138]] ([[User talk:Zakor1138|talk]]) 18:58, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Star Saber, Deszaras, Victory Leo -- [[User:S-NFS|S-NFS]] ([[User talk:S-NFS|talk]]) 2:10, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
* Blackarachnia, Flareup, Windblade --[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:11, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Cheetor, Prowl, Wreck-Gar -- [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:15, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Prowl, Unicron -- [[User:ComeonandSLAM|ComeonandSLAM]] ([[User talk:ComeonandSLAM|talk]]) 19:24, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Heatwave, Sky-Byte --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:27, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Hot Shot, Ravage --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:35, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Bluestreak, Mirage, Prowl -- [[User:Kazenokasa|Kazenokasa]] ([[User talk:Kazenokasa|talk]]) 20:03, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Jetfire, Prowl, Rhinox -- [[User:Bobpiecheese|Bobpiecheese]] ([[User talk:Bobpiecheese|talk]]) 21:36, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Jetfire, Optimus Primal, Prowl -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|<sup>Use this!</sup>]] 21:45, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
*Drift G1, Inferno BW, Nightbeat G1 -- [[User:Avalanche|Avalanche]] ([[User talk:Avalanche|talk]]) 22:17, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Ginrai, Heatwave, Star Saber -- [[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 22:55, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Demolishor, Hot Shot, Sideways -- [[User:Stardust262|Stardust262]] ([[User talk:Stardust262|talk]]) 23:27, 13 April 2015 (EDT)
* Jetfire, Prowl, Windblade -- [[User:Raininshadows|Raininshadows]] ([[User talk:Raininshadows|talk]]) 00:33, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Optimus Primal, Sky-Byte -- [[User:LordTacos|LordTacos]] ([[User talk:LordTacos|talk]]) 00:43, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Cheetor (BW), Ginrai, Optimus Primal --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:52, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Bludgeon, Tarn, Whirl -- [[User:Arborday|Arborday]] ([[User talk:Arborday|talk]]) 01:01, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Sideswipe, Sky-Byte, Thundercracker -- [[User:BT383|BT383]] ([[User talk:BT383|talk]]) 01:35, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Galvatron, Laserbeak, Sky-Byte--[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:44, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Optimus Primal, Sky-Byte -- [[User:Acidforblood|Acidforblood]] ([[User talk:Acidforblood|talk]]) 01:54, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Ginrai, Roadbuster, Siren -- [[User:StarWars_Jedi|StarWars_Jedi]] ([[User talk:StarWars_Jedi|talk]]) 08:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
* Blackarachnia, Lockdown, Thundercracker--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 02:45, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Ravage, Whirl --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 03:05, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Blackarachnia, Jetfire, Lockdown -- [[User:BattleBlade|BattleBlade]] ([[User talk:BattleBlade|talk]]) 05:12, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Brawl, Rotorstorm, Sixshot --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] ([[User talk:Apoc|talk]]) 05:27, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Bulkhead, Optimus Primal, Primus --[[User:Diamondmatter|Diamondmatter]] ([[User talk:Diamondmatter|talk]]) 05:37, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Chase, Gears, Optimus Primal [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 09:25, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Jetfire, Prowl, Sky-Byte --[[User:DjinniMan|Djinniman]]
* Blackarachnia, Prowl, Tyrest -[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 10:46, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
*Brainstorm, Crosscut (Decepticon), Sky-Byte --[[User:Tfus183crosscut|Tfus183crosscut]] ([[User talk:Tfus183crosscut|talk]]) 11:22, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Optimus Primal, Prowl, Sky-Byte --[[User:Autobot62695|Autobot62695]] ([[User talk:Autobot62695|talk]]) 11:19, 14 April 2015 (EDIT)
* Bludgeon, Overlord, Scorponok (G1), Thunderwing, Unicron --[[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 13:54, 14 April 2015 (EDT)
* Optimus Primal, Unicron, Sky-Byte [[User:John3637881|John3637881]] ([[User talk:John3637881|talk]]) 14:12, 14 April 2015 (EDT)


[[Category: TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2015-04-05T22:08:30Z

John3637881: Question about character article names!

Masquerade

2015-04-05T21:42:14Z

John3637881: /* Continuity notes */ Noted that this episode marks the final appearance of several characters.

{{episode
|image=Masquerade Menasors.JPG
|caption=Menasor crush...destroy knockoff.
|series=G1toon
|ep=64
|series2=SRLFtoon
|ep2=61
|prev2=War Dawn (episode)
|next2=Fire in the Sky
|series3=''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (cartoon)|The Transformers: Generation 2]]''
|ep3=21
|prev3=The Revenge of Bruticus
|next3=Ghost in the Machine (episode)
|title="Masquerade"
|written by=[[Donald F. Glut]]
|production code=700-63
|airdate=[[December 16]], 1985
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|animation studio=[[Toei]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}

'''After defeating the Stunticons, five of the Autobots pose as the crazed combiners to learn of Megatron's newest plan.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Masquerade prime vs mmaster.jpg‎|left|thumb|Shortly after this, Menasor threw up.]]
[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]] sends the [[Stunticon (G1)|Stunticons]] on a mission to find components for an unrevealed purpose, including the world's largest, most perfect ruby. While searching for their components, the actions of the Stunticons catch the attention of the [[Autobot]]s, who track their movements and their crimes. Breakdown and Wildrider get the first component: laser lenses from a scientist. Dead End and Drag Strip get the second component: an experimental generator from the Army. Motormaster gets the last one: a perfect ruby from a museum.

The Autobots split into teams and manage to be extremely effective at capturing the Stunticons in the middle of their capers. [[Grapple (G1)|Grapple]], [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]], and [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]] take on [[Breakdown (G1)|Breakdown]] and [[Wildrider (G1)|Wildrider]]. [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]] and [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] take on [[Dead End (G1)|Dead End]] and [[Drag Strip (G1)|Drag Strip]]. Finally, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Bumblebee]], [[Blaster (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Blaster]], and [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] go for [[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]], who challenges the [[Prime (rank)|Autobot leader]] to a game of “chicken” and ends up in a head-on collision. Spike, Bumblebee, and Blaster peer through the dust to see who survived, and it turns out that Optimus is the clear victor with merely a minor headache, while Motormaster lies in a wreck.

[[File:Masquerade Wheeljack Optimaster.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|No Motormaster disguise is complete without a hunk of Big League Chew.]]

Although all five Stunticons have been captured, the Autobots still don’t know what their plans were for the components they stole for Megatron. [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] guesses that the parts are going to be made into a weapon. (Nooo, really?) Optimus hatches a scheme to disguise Autobots using [[camouflage paint]] and penetrate the Decepticon camp disguised as Stunticons: Optimus Prime as Motormaster, [[Jazz (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Jazz]] as Dead End, [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] as Breakdown, [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] as Drag Strip, and [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]] as Wildrider.

[[File:Sideswipe FakeBreakdown.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Sideswipe? I, Breakdown, have never heard of such a being!]]

The disguised Autobots infiltrate the Decepticons, although their arrival causes some raised eyebrows because they are driving too "safely". They deliver the stolen components to Megatron without being detected.

Back at [[Ark (G1)|Autobot Headquarters]], the Stunticons manage to shimmy and shake their way out of their cells, merge into [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] and overcome their Autobot captors. They then head back to the Decepticon base.

[[File:Masquerade Megatron manning gun.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|We've been here before.]]

The Constructicons complete Megatron’s new weapon, and he reveals its power, but just then Menasor arrives and declares the Autobots as infiltrators. Using Windcharger’s electric field ability and Mirage’s illusion power, the Autobots merge into their own Menasor. The two giants battle it out, and the Autobots are overcome. Megatron trains the new weapon on the Autobots, but the device blows up in his face after a few scattered shots.

Autobot reinforcements arrive, and the Decepticons flee without their usual promises for revenge. It is revealed that Ironhide had made adjustments to the ruby back at Autobot HQ, which caused the device to explode. The Autobots head for home, victorious.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (9)
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (10)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] (12)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (13)
* [[Bumblebee (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Bumblebee]] (14)
* [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] (18)
* [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]] (19)
* [[Grapple (G1)|Grapple]] (20)
* [[Blaster (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Blaster]] (21)
* [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]] (22)
* [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] (23)
* [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (24)
* [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] (25)
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] (26)
* [[Jazz (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Jazz]] (27)
* [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]] (28)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (29)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (30)
* [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] (31)
* [[Huffer (G1)|Huffer]] (32)

|c2=
* [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]] (1)
* [[Wildrider (G1)|Wildrider]] (2)
* [[Dead End (G1)|Dead End]] (3)
* [[Breakdown (G1)|Breakdown]] (4)
* [[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]] (5)
* [[Drag Strip (G1)|Drag Strip]] (6)
* [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] (7)
* [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]] (8)
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] (33)
* [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]]
* [[Scavenger (G1)|Scavenger]] (34)
* [[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] (35)
* [[Hook (G1)|Hook]] (36)
* [[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]] (37)
* [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] (38)
* [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] (39)

|c3=
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] (11)
* Dr. [[Rickel]] (15)
* US Army troops (16)
* Museum guards (17)
}}

==Quotes==
"A near miss deserves a couple o' near-missiles!"
:—'''Inferno'''

"I'll probably hate myself in the morning, but..."
:—'''Inferno''' before he douses the flames on the Stunticon Breakdown

"Well, look who's here! The old King of the Road! When I'm finished with ya, you'll be King of the Junkyard!"
:—'''Motormaster''' taunting '''Optimus Prime''' into a game of chicken

''[The Autobots are towing the defeated Stunticons to Autobot Headquarters]''<br>
'''Wheeljack''': Here they come.<br>
'''Ratchet''': I won't bother asking who won.<br>
'''Breakdown''': ''(taking note of the Autobots looking at them)'' They're gawking at us! How mortifrying!<br>
'''Dead End''': The word, Breakdown, is mortiFYing, my sentiment exactly.<br>
'''Motormaster''': I'm in no mood for your big words, Dead End.<br>
'''Ironhide''': For you, motormouth, this '''IS''' a dead end.
:—Motormaster complains about Dead End's SAT-level vocabulary

"Man, Optimus. You're a dead ringer for Motormaster."<br>
"Did you have to say ''dead'' ringer, Spike?"
:—'''Spike Witwicky'''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s vocabulary causes '''Optimus Prime''' to wince.

[[File:Masquerade as i preducted.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
"Everybody out on bad behavior!"
:—'''Breakdown''' after freeing himself and taking out Inferno, Grapple, and Hoist.

"Imagine my turning that ray on the Autobots' headquarters. Perhaps when it's gone, someone will put up a memorial parking lot. Mwahaha!"
:—'''Megatron'''

"Machine appears unstable. Suggest abandoning it."<br>
"Suggestion noted—and ignored!"
:—'''Soundwave''' warns '''Megatron''', for all the good it does.

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
* Coloring errors:
** As Motormaster hands out assignments, Drag Strip has a random rectangle drawn in the middle of his visor, and Dead End's face is miscolored - his mouthplate is light gray instead of yellow, and his visor is red instead of purple.
** As Optimus gets his idea after watching the broadcast, the triangles on his waist are gray instead of yellow.
** As Laserbeak returns to Soundwave, Soundwave is missing his Decepticon insignia, as well as the gold stripes around his cassette door (which is drawn too small as well). He also doesn't move his mouthplate when he speaks.
** As "Motormaster" (Optimus) drives up to Megatron, his door is colored purple like his windows (and his window rims are colored purple too.) A shot later, it's back to black, but the ''next'' shot (Starscream asking about his voice) shows his grille as black instead of gray. The same thing happens as the real Motormaster busts out of the Autobot cell.
** Just after dismissing the Constructicons, Megatron's face is white.
** "And the Autobots are totally unaware of its existence" - "Breakdown" is colored as Sideswipe. (Of course, he IS Sideswipe, but should be... oh, you get the point.)
** As "Motormaster" (Optimus) asks about the weapon, Megatron's forehead colors are reversed (black forehead with gray triangles).
** As "Motormaster" (Optimus) says, "Too many head-on collisions!," his headlights are black instead of white.
** "Motormaster"'s black grille returns again as Megatron explains the weapon, recurring in numerous shots.
** Soundwave's cheekguards and eject button are both blue instead of white as Starscream mocks Megatron.
** Soundwave's missing the gold rim around his tape door as he and Starscream move toward the impostor Stunticons.
** "No, he's the imposter!" - "Drag Strip" is missing his Decepticon symbol (and possibly some striping, depending on which color model you trust.)
** "There's one absolute test, 'Stunticons'" - Dead End's tires are white; Soundwave's cheekguards are blue instead of white again. The same error repeats when Starscream calls out for Menasor to destroy the Autobots.[[File:Masquerade Megatron manning gun.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
** When Megatron first grabs the laser, he's colored in reverse (light gray body with a dark gray face).
** Drag Strip is white instead of yellow as Menasor swings his sword. When Menasor hits the fake with the sword, Drag Strip is attached backwards, with his wheels pointing outward.
** When "Motormaster" reverts to Optimus Prime, his headlights aren't colored white and he's missing the horizontal lines on the crest of his helmet.
** "No need for the disguises anymore" - Prime's face is a darker gray than his mouthplate in most of this shot; they should be the same tone. For a second, the faceplate darkens then lightens again.
** When the Autobots begin firing on Menasor, his face is entirely black.
** Just before Megatron fires the laser, Windcharger is miscoloured in green and gray (with yellow stripes on his arms, like Hound).
** As he stares at the destroyed weapon, Sideswipe's fist is white instead of black.
* When Motormaster says "Breakdown and Wildrider", he points to each robot as he says the other's name.
* The Stunticons land on a beach and each of them kicks up sand when they land. A few moments later, they transform and drive off, and no sand is disturbed by their tires.
* The Stunticons clearly never had detailed transformation models worked out:
** Every time the four cars transform to [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]], they more or less just morph into their Earth forms. When they transform back to [[robot mode]], all the robot bits just slide out from under their car modes, which disappear into their backs.
** Motormaster's transformation is similarly wonky; his arms are just kind of absorbed lengthwise into his torso, which then morphs into his trailer - rather than the arms ''becoming'' the trailer's roof, as they should. Every time he transforms, his trailer/torso rather blatantly changes color from light to dark gray (or vice versa.)
* Ventriloquist bots:
** Ratchet's voice actor in this episode is [[Wally Burr]], not the usual [[Don Messick]], and it shows. Burr uses the same generic deep voice he used for Thundercracker in "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and Jazz in "[[Kremzeek!]]".
** "Yeah, but I don't have to like it" - Ironhide's mouth doesn't move for the first part of this line.
** Menasor's mouth doesn't move as he says his own name.
** As he flies off to "Destroy fake Stunticons", Menasor's mouth - again - doesn't move.
** As Bumblebee says, "Great Cybertron," Spike is mouthing the words.
** The Autobot Menasor gets knocked to the ground, but one who delivers "The generator..." line in Optimus' voice is the one standing up (with the sky behind him).
* Wildrider is missing his transformation sound effect as he approaches the optics shop; Breakdown does get one a second later.
* The experimental generator is inordinately tiny when it's sitting on the flatbed truck.
* Motormaster somehow transforms into (a ''tiny'') truck mode while still inside the museum. Also, a moment later as he drives away, he has a dark gray stripe on his trailer that shouldn't be there.
* While firing on Drag Strip, Warpath is shown driving forward while his treads are stationary.
* As Tracks goes into flight mode, the sandy beach suddenly has squares on it for one shot (as if it were pavement).
* As Motormaster comes into view before the crash with Prime, his bumper extends to the sides of his trailer rather than the sides of his cab.
* After the crash, just before Optimus transforms into robot mode, his cab's grille is missing the vertical line in the middle. His subsequent transformation looks very crude, especially around his legs.
* Blaster contacts the other Autobots and his chest lights up, but during Warpath's report it's no longer flashing.
[[File:G1 cartoon Motormaster slagged.JPG|thumb|upright=1.1]]
* As often happens, the animators mistake Motormaster's panel lines for the start of a second trailer. It's particularly visible in the last shot of his wrecked form after his collision with Prime.
* Optimus strokes his faceplate during the discussion of the Stunticons' plans, and his finger disappears for a moment.
* The broadcast of the doctor's announcement shows a building with the word "OPTCS" behind him. Earlier it was correctly shown as "REPUBLIC ''OPTICS'' COMPANY".
* The doctor's bow tie has grown to twice the size when he appears on TV.
* Jazz's waist is huge as he stands outside the paint chamber.
* When approaching the crater, Jazz appears to be driving above and not under rocks, and as Windcharger breaks formation to test their disguises, he clips into the cliff edge above them. In the same shot, "Wildrider"'s windows are the same gray as his body, rather than red.
[[File:Huge Ironhide and Small Ratchet.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Introducing Ultra class Ironhide and Scout class Ratchet.]]
* As a result of animation cels being stacked incorrectly, Ratchet appears teeny-tiny in the front of a crowd shot, making Ironhide look colossal by comparison. The tiny Ratchet should, of course, be (barely visible) at the ''back'' of the crowd.
[[File:Masquerade-menasor-modelchange.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|"Model make no sense! Menasor confused."]]
* Menasor's limbs:
** When the Stunticons combine at Autobot Headquarters, Motormaster transforms to robot mode... and then the other Stunticons just clip onto him, rather than forming additional new limbs. Of course, it kinda sorta fits with the screwed-up way Menasor is often drawn, but this version has ''Motormaster's feet''.
** During his escape, Menasor constantly changes back and forth between having Dead End and Drag Strip attached ''to'' his arms, and having them ''as'' his arms. (It should be the latter.)
** As Menasor lands at the crater, two successive shots show him from exactly the same angle. In the first, his Drag Strip arm is drawn as the "clip-onto-Motormaster" model... and in the very next shot, it's drawn as the "Drag Strip forms the whole arm" model.
* When Menasor takes off to warn Megatron, he has a purple [[Autobot]] insignia.
* Menasor's under-arm lasers only appear when the plot calls for them - when he fires them in Autobot Headquarters, and again when he fires them on the fake Menasor. The first time, they're dark gray; the second time, they're white.
* Mirage's Autobot symbol is missing as he transforms.
* The weapon's beam comes from ''beside'' the barrel, rather than coming out of it.

===Continuity errors===
[[File:G1 Masquerade Warpath crushes DeadEnd.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
[[File:Masquerade BreakdownWildriderdefeated.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
* During their construction in "[[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1]]", Megatron notes that he has outfitted the Stunticons with "automatic force fields that make their hulls impenetrable", which accounts for how well they did in battle. Yet in this episode they are easily taken down by second string Autobots, including non-fighters such as Grapple and Hoist. Warpath even manages to simply punch right through Dead End! Clearly they have been skimping on their scheduled maintenance.
* Motormaster's transformation scheme greatly differs from that of Optimus Prime - yet after donning his Motormaster disguise, Optimus transforms exactly like Motormaster does. (However bizarre this seems, it was clearly scripted - so we also count it as a possible technology, under Continuity Notes below.)
* The Stunticons are all badly beaten up after their capture. But when they escape, they're suddenly in perfect shape - able to drive, transform, combine and fight with no problems.
* "The weapon [is] but minutes from completion. And then..." "And then... what?" A fine question, indeed! Megatron's crazy laser thing is stuck down in the bottom of a crater, with no obvious way to move about or blow up anything that doesn't come popping down into the crater.
* The Autobots account for their ability to merge (Windcharger's magnetic field) and for the fake Menasor's face (Mirage's hologram) but where do they get working ''hands'' for their fake Menasor?

===Sci-Fi Channel edits===
* In the mid-1990s, many G1 episodes were aired on the [[SciFi Network]]. To allow expanded advertising time, they were edited down, cutting "unnecessary" dialog and scenes out. Some of the "unnecessary" dialog cut from this episode included parts of Grapple and Inferno's lines, resulting in them collectively uttering "Time to add firobably hate myself in the morning, but..."

===Continuity notes===
[[File:Masquerade Jazz camouflage paint.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
[[File:Soundwave fly.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Huh? Tape-bot cannot fly!]]
* It's never explained just how the Autobots disguise themselves. Sideswipe says something about camouflage paint... and then suddenly Windcharger is turned into Wildrider, details and all, right before our eyes. It's apparently some high-tech stuff, because it even lets Optimus totally change his transformation scheme. And it just turns right off once Optimus decides the gig is up.
* Gadgets and powers:
** Soundwave informs us that Menasor has "special powers"... which seem to consist of a couple of under-arm mounted guns.
** Sideswipe and Mirage both fire their shoulder missiles, which the writers and animators usually seem to forget about.
** Soundwave can fly in his tape deck mode! When the Decepticons retreat, he transforms and then flies off behind Starscream. It is tempting to assume that the animators took a script direction like "the Decepticons transform and fly off in retreat" a bit too literally.
** Mirage can project a hologram of Menasor's face. This runs contrary to his usual schtick, which is invisibility. His original bio described him as being able to create "the illusion of a different appearance" for up to six minutes, but this is the only time it pops up in the cartoon (presumably because holograms were Hound's gimmick... though per the bio, Hound's great power is to create ''maps'', and simple images on rare occasions.)
* Megatron explains his weapon-du-jour thusly: "The most destructive weapon known to Decepticon science...Utilizing that ruby's light, focused through those perfect lenses, it will fire the most destructive ray of all. More powerful than any laser, it will create a chain reaction in whatever it touches... producing instantaneous destruction." Based on the animation, this appears to be a long-winded way of saying "It blows up rocks."
* Hasn't Megatron learned his lesson about building [[Fire on the Mountain (episode)|giant superlasers that can't be moved]]? [[B.O.T. (episode)|Apparently not]]!
* Megatron's line "Suggestion noted...AND IGNORED!" when Soundwave warns him would be revisited during the ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' episode "[[Nemesis Part 2]]" when his [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|namesake]] utters those exact sentiments to [[Dinobot II]] on board the ''[[Nemesis (G1)|Nemesis]]''.
*Two scenes deleted from this episode feature the individual Stunticons talking with each other ''while'' combined as Menasor, only for Menasor himself to then silence all of his components, because their chatter is confusing him! Even without this dialogue, the finished episode portrays Menasor as almost adorably dumb and easily bamboozled - utterly baffled, for example, when Prime accuses him of being an imposter.
*This episode marks the final appearances of [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]], [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]], and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] in the American version of the ''Generation One'' cartoon.

===Real-life references===
* ''[[Star Wars (franchise)|Star Wars]]'' sound effects:
** ''[[Millennium Falcon]]'' engine roar as Laserbeak flies over the faux Stunticons.
** A lengthy sequence of borrowed effects follows as Laserbeak flies onwards - sounds include the ''Falcon'' engine burst, a [[TIE Fighter]]'s targeting computer, [[Death Star]] superlaser, and ''Falcon'' engine whine. As he returns to Soundwave, he gets another ''Falcon'' engine burst.
** ''Falcon'' engine and [[X-wing Fighter|X-Wing]] diving whine as Menasor flies away from Autobot Headquarters.
** X-Wing and TIE Fighter roar as the Constructicons fly off... and again as Menasor flies off... and again as Starscream and Soundwave fly off.
** A variety of [[lightsaber]] noises as Megatron fires his super not-a-laser weapon.

===Trivia===
[[File:Dragstripcartoon.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|"Dead End and Drag Strip, your job is to upsell."]]
* In full sell-my-toy mode, Motormaster gives a quick introdump at the episode's start, naming off his troops, and then ''again'' a moment later as he hands out assignments.
* In case you missed it, the Autobots chosen to impersonate the Stunticons are based specifically on [[alternate mode]]s. Given this attention to detail, it's not infeasible to think that the plot of this episode may have originally called for the Autobots to simply have their alternate modes painted, since they consistently refrain from transforming once in the Decepticon camp:
**Although the specific models don't line up, Prime and Motormaster both transform into semi trucks
**Jazz and Dead End are both Porsches
**Breakdown and Sideswipe are Lamborghinis
**Mirage and Drag Strip are both Formula 1 race cars (albeit very different-looking ones)
**And.... weeeeell, Windcharger's a Pontiac Firebird and Wildrider's a Ferrari, but the plot demanded Windcharger for his magnetic abilities.
* Whether by inspiration or by parallel reasoning, several toy redecos have followed the pattern of this episode:
**''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' [[:File:ClassicsLOCMenasor.jpg|Menasor]] is a [[redeco]] from ''[[Legends Class|Legends of Cybertron]]'' [[:File:LOC CybertronPrime.jpg|Optimus Prime]], [[Transformers: Generations#Asian market exclusives .28.22GDO.22.29|GDO]] [[:File:GenerationsMotorbreathToy.jpg|Motorbreath]] is a retool of ''[[Reveal the Shield]]'' [[:File:TF2010-toy Legends Optimus Prime.jpg|Optimus Prime]] and ''Animated'' Motor Master is a retool of ''Animated'' Optimus Prime. ''[[Transformers: Generations#Combiner Wars .282015-.29|Combiner Wars]]'' Voyager class [[:File:GenerationsVoyOP.jpg|Optimus Prime]] is also getting [[:File:Generations-CW Voyager Motormaster stock.jpg|a Motormaster retool]].
**''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' [[:File:Universe2008 DragStrip.jpg|Drag Strip]] is made from ''Classics'' [[:File:Classics Mirage toy.jpg|Mirage]].
** At one point there was intended to be a ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Binaltech]]'' [[Wildrider (G1)#Notes|Wildrider]] created from ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Alternators]]'' [[:File:AltWindcharger toy.jpg|Windcharger]] (or rather, his ''Binaltech'' [[:File:Binaltech Overdrive Toy.jpg|counterpart]]), but that never eventuated.
**[[Don Figueroa]] used ''Universe'' [[:File:Universe2008 SideSwipe toy.jpg|Sideswipe]] as a basis for the [[IDW Generation 1 continuity]] version of Breakdown, and the toy's mold was used for both the ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[BotCon 2010]] [[:File:BreakdownBotcon.JPG|''Generation 2''-esque Breakdown]] toy and the ''Timelines'' [[Transformers Collectors' Club|TFCC:]] [[Transformers Figure Subscription Service|TFSS]] [[:File:TFSS Preview Breakdown.jpg|''Generation 1''-esque Breakdown]] toys! Furthermore, ''Animated'' Breakdown uses the same mold as ''Animated'' Sideswipe (the Rodimus Minor mold).
** ''[[Titanium Series]]'' [[:File:ROTF-toy DeadEndTitanium.jpg|live-action movie Dead End]] reuses [[:File:Movie TitaniumRM Jazz.jpg|live-action movie Jazz]]'s mold, while the ''Timelines'' toy of an [[:File:Animated Dead End Toy.JPG|''Animated''-esque Dead End]] is a redeco of ''[[Transformers Animated (toyline)|Animated]]'' [[:File:Animated jazz both mode1.JPG|Jazz]].
* If any one episode served to cement Megatron's poor reputation among certain (more snarky) elements of the fandom, this is surely it. He comes up with a madcap scheme to build a useless weapon, doesn't listen to any of his troops' rather intelligent suggestions, insults his underlings for no reason, misses the obvious, toys with his enemies, pouts when he loses, and flies off with nothing in the end.
* Man, Starscream saw through the whole charade in about two seconds, didn't he?

===Foreign localization===
'''German'''
:*''Title (Generation 2 dub):'' "'''Perfekte Tarnung'''" ("Perfect Disguise")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[September 17]], [[1994]]

'''Italian'''
:*''Title (dub 1):'' "'''I falsi Stunticons'''" ("The Fake Stunticons")
:*''Title (dub 2):'' "'''Sotto copertura'''" ("Undercover")
:*''Original airdate:'' ?

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Masquerade'''" (マスカレード)
:*''Original airdate:'' [[September 19]], [[1986]]

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 1990 — ''Transformers'' — Cosmic Rust / Masquerade ([[Tempo Video]])
;[[Wikipedia:LaserDisc|LaserDisc]]
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1995 — ''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers'' — Megatron Set ([[TakaraTomy|Takara]]) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1999 — ''The Transformers'' — Decepticon Edition ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2001 — ''The Transformers'' — DVD Box 2 (Pioneer LDC) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2003 — ''The Original Transformers'' — Season 2 Part 2 ([[The Original Transformers|Rhino Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2003 — ''The Original Transformers'' — Season 2 Part 2: Vol. 8 (Rhino Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers'' — Season 2 Part 2 ([[Metrodome]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2004 — ''Transformers'' — Collection 3: Series 2.2 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2006 — ''Transformers'' — The Complete Generation One Collection (Metrodome)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2007 — ''The Transformers'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of Italy.png|20px|Italy]] 2009 — ''Transformers'' — Volume 06: Stagione Due Parte Quarta ([[Medianetwork Communication]]) — English and Italian audio.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2009 — ''Transformers'' — Season Two: Part Two (Metrodome)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers'' — Complete Collection: Decepticon Edition (Madman Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2009 — ''The Transformers'' — The Complete Series: 25th Anniversary "Matrix of Leadership" Collection ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2009 — ''The Transformers'' — Season Two, Volume Two: 25th Anniversary Edition (Shout! Factory)

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/masquerade.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicles]

[[Category:The Transformers episodes]]
[[Category:Generation 2 episodes]]